Talk:Kirin

Kirin vs. Limelight
is kirin more powerful than limelight?
 * Limelight covers a bigger area, but I guess Kirin is faster. Jacce 16:17, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Dude Limelight doesn't even exist. It was made up by a bunch of Japanese fan noobs that are directing the Naruto anime series.


 * Which still falls under the veil of "canon" here. Video games and movies however don't.--TheUltimate3 05:21, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * And why don't Video Games and Movies not fall under that category. Certainly Kishimoto didn't write the scripts for these.


 * Because video games break the physics already established in the manga/anime for gameplay purposes, and movies, being movies, take place outside any plausible canonical structure, as well as breaks established physics. (Such as the unique kekkei genkai, Hyton being used like it was nothing in the first movie).--TheUltimate3 05:45, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm not really getting what the hell you're talking about. Because Video games break physics (obviously) they are no longer canon, as well as movies??????? Canon is just fan script, which is what fillers are. Movies are filler, and are thus canon. Video games are canon as well, other people (not Kishi) make the video games with alteration which makes it a bit canon too.


 * Not quite. As I said, things are changed in video games for gameplay purposes and thus not canon. At the same time, Movies are not filler because they do not fit anywhere in normal canon, and no references in anime filler or anything like that ever mentions them. In the course of the story, manga is above, anime plus its filler is also considered canon (with some minor mistakes which is usually corrected by the databooks and what not). Video Games are not considered Canon because they are video games, and movies are outside of everything and thus not considered part of the storyline. It's really that simple, it has nothing to do with fan scripts and the like.--TheUltimate3 06:00, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I think you need to take another look at the definition "canon". Though Canon is not actually an official word, so this is the closest of definitions you'll ever get.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=canon

As you see Canon is Fanfiction. Video games that are altered regardless of the circumstances, would technically be canon. Movies are a given, fillers have nothing to do with the plot, and neither do movies. Movies are completely fan made by the script writers that write the fillers. I'm not going to reply anymore to this, I'm tired, and it's pointless.


 * Pleasure doing business with you.--TheUltimate3 06:19, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Reverted FlamingDogs edit* F.Y.I. I ususally ban people who edit my Talk Page edits for their own amusement. Consider yourself lucky its the Lord's Day.--TheUltimate3 14:22, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

get back to the topic! it seems that depending on the situation, either could be more powerful. Limelight does cover a bigger area, but it uses chakra, which makes it less powerful. That's because if Kirin covered the same area as Limelight could, then the damage from Kirin would be a lot more devastating. also, if someone used Kirin with just chakra instead of natural lightning, then regular Kirin would still be stronger. but the area it covers does not define how strong it is, Kirin is a lot more powerful because it uses natural lightning. Vik0z0z (talk) 20:09, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Kirin destroyed an entire mountain, I think if fits in quite snug with Limelight... Probably better to use since the preparation is no where near as extreme as Limelights preparation.

Hand signs?
When did sasuke perfmorm Hand signs?
 * During the Sasuke and Sai arc, Sasuke performed a number of hand signs and was going to use Kirin to kill everyone untill Orochimaru stopped him.
 * We don't know for certain if it was Kirin he was going to do back then. However, even if it was, the handseals would have been for the Fire Release: Great Dragon Fire Technique required to create the thunderclouds Kirin needs. This is further supported by the fact that Sasuke uses a Tiger seal, commonly used for Fire Release techniques. --ShounenSuki (talk 16:41, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Didn't Sasuke use the Fire Release: Great Dragon Fire Technique to destroy the room he and Sai were in, thus allowing preparation to use Kirin? Orochimaru did say that jutsu.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 15:24, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * There's so evidences that Sasuke was gonna use Kirin. He made the same hand sign as he did when he used it against Itachi. That sign has only be shown to be connected to Kirin. It's also the only technique shown to be able of a one-hit kill. It wouldn't make since for Orochimau to stop him unless he knew the technique Sasuke was gonna use would have killed them in one hit. Rikudou Latios65.107.3.195 (talk) 06:08, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Where did you see the hand signs in his fight against Itachi? Jacce | Talk 06:19, 21 June 2009 (UTC)
 * This sounds like the level where guesses become speculation, the comment is riddled with key words and phrases that trigger my speculation senses. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Jun 21, 2009 @ 07:47 (UTC)

Chakra
Isn't their some chakra used for kirin as seen by the blue chakra aura he made when doing it in the anime while fighting team 7? Cooltamerboy (talk) 15:21, 8 April 2009 (UTC).
 * I believe the only chakra used in this technique is the chakra used to grab the one in the clouds/sky. If you're asking if there is any chakra in the lightning itself then no.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 15:26, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * But it wouldn't be called a ninjutsu if it doesn't use any chakra. Even Jacce agrees with me and it is shown by the blue aura. And i'm not saying lightning, but i'm saying about kirin. Cooltamerboy (talk) 15:32, 8 April 2009 (UTC).
 * Kirin is a manipulation of Lightning, the lightning in the clouds. The blue aura is most likely Sasuke releasing his chakra to grab the lightning from the clouds/sky. Everytime a Lightning Release jutsu is formed it is generated from the body as were Kirin isn't. This would also explain why it's called 'Kirin' and not Lightning Release:Kirin.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 15:37, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * But it has too use some chakra for it to be called a ninjutsu. Cooltamerboy (talk) 15:40, 8 April 2009 (UTC).
 * It is using chakra. To 'grab' the Lightning.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 15:44, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Also it combines some. Even Jacce agrees with me. Cooltamerboy (talk) 15:51, 8 April 2009 (UTC).
 * What makes you think it combines chakra into the lightning?  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 15:53, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * And How wud he evn be able to combine his chakra with natural lightning.....personally i think it just uses it to pull and direct the lightning.....AlienGamer
 * That is what I'm trying to get him to understand. The only chakra useage in teh technique is to pull and direct the lightning.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 15:59, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * It acts like a sheild giving it even more power like the cover of the kirin. Cooltamerboy (talk) 16:07, 8 April 2009 (UTC).
 * I'm sorry but I don't understand what you just said.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 16:08, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

The chakra is like a skin for kirin giving it extra power as shown for sasuke using so much chakra to make this skin. Cooltamerboy (talk) 16:47, 8 April 2009 (UTC).


 * The only chakra Kirin uses is to shape and direct the lightning. It doesn't use chakra to increase its power. This is why it requires so little chakra. It doesn't require chakra to generate the lightning or drastically alter its form or characteristics. Only a small bit to direct it at the enemy and give it the appearance of a kirin. --ShounenSuki (talk 16:52, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * But it uses some chakra to increase its power somehow even though it's main power is natural lightning. Cooltamerboy (talk) 17:03, 8 April 2009 (UTC).


 * Wat r u basing this on.....AlienGamer


 * That chakra is somehow part of kirin. it uses some chakra to increase some of its power somehow even though it's main power is natural lightning. Cooltamerboy (talk) 17:13, 8 April 2009 (UTC).


 * Again, what are you basing that on? There is no indication of that at all. --ShounenSuki (talk 17:15, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * That chakra is somehow part of kirin. Cooltamerboy (talk) 17:46, 8 April 2009 (UTC).


 * u'r not answering the question..wat is the BASIS of u'r theory.....AlienGamer


 * Chakra is a part of Kirin in that it guides and shapes the chakra. There is no indication it does anything else. If you have reason to believe it serves another function, Cooltamerboy, then please explain why. --ShounenSuki (talk 17:53, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

It keeps the shape so it keeps the chakra. So everything with chakra gets a power boost. Cooltamerboy (talk) 17:58, 8 April 2009 (UTC).


 * Where did you get that? Not only is there no indication that chakra has to be present for the lightning to maintain its shape (although it would seem the most intuitive option), there is certainly no reason to assume the presence of chakra gives a power boost. --ShounenSuki (talk 18:04, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Usually almost every attack has chakra which gives it more power like sukara's enhanced chakra punch. Cooltamerboy (talk) 18:10, 8 April 2009 (UTC).


 * So why do you think that Kirin, which is special for using the power of a natural phenomenon instead of chakra-based power, uses chakra to increase power? It's not a given. Chakra needs to be used for something, it doesn't do things by itself. It can be used for enhancing power, but that's not always the case. --ShounenSuki (talk 18:27, 8 April 2009 (UTC)


 * But it does give a little power boost. Also what will happen to kirin if sasuke is in CS2? Cooltamerboy (talk) 18:31, 8 April 2009 (UTC).


 * There is absolutely no indication it gives a power boost. If you think it does, give some actual proof.
 * Although it is a bit off-topic, I'll give you an answer to your question: If Sasuke had used Kirin while he was in the second level of his Cursed Seal, there would likely have been absolutely no difference. --ShounenSuki (talk 18:35, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Well not exacatly a power boost, but part of its power. Cooltamerboy (talk) 04:21, 9 April 2009 (UTC).
 * Chakra is not part of it's power. Only raw natural lightning.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 04:22, 9 April 2009 (UTC)


 * But it uses chakra for some power and to be like a first layer for kirin since it controls its shape and every jutsu that has chakra get more power from it. Cooltamerboy (talk) 04:33, 9 April 2009 (UTC).


 * U'r not gonna accept this r u??.....AlienGamer


 * I gave alot of examples. Cooltamerboy (talk) 04:44, 9 April 2009 (UTC).


 * No u dont..u'r just repeatin the same thins.........AlienGamer
 * Didn't you promise TheUltimate3 to stop asking the same random question over and over again? The answer was "no" the first time you asked, and it is going to be "no" the next time you ask. Find a new topic please. ~SnapperTo 04:49, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Cooltamerboy, I'm going to have to ask you to please stop responding to this section until you can properly articulate yourself and understand what is being said to you as at this moment this discussion is going nowhere.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 04:52, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Let's end this disscusion ok? Cooltamerboy (talk) 04:54, 9 April 2009 (UTC).

When Sasuke shoots Great Dragon Fire Technique into the sky the chakara in the fire laces the electricity in the sky. What Sasuke has in his hand was lightning chakara used to lure the chakara in. Kirin retains its shape due to the chakara originally with the fire technique lacing it.

those handsigns show tat sasuke was gonna use kirin as he raised his hand and chakra started forming on his hands,orochimaru grabbed his hand and said tat he was not going to use as it would kill them all(kirin's blast could kill everone within orochimaru's hideout range)

can sasuke still use kirin now that the juin is gone because i think he doesnt have enough chakra to perform that dragon head fire thing but maybe now he could use amaterasu to create the necesarry heat?81.10.220.248 (talk) 14:14, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

I think he doesn't need anymore, now he has EMS, just imagine what powers he has.--Ttogafer (talk) 14:29, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

Speed
"Which travels at 1/1000th of a second" is not a speed, it's purely a time, not a distance covered in that time. Can someone correct this Keibatsu (talk) 17:44, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

I'm glad someone finally understood this! :-D I tried editing it, but it was reverted... 98.200.252.109 (talk) 02:41, July 6, 2010 (UTC)

it was implied that it would take that lng to hit itatchi,so from storm cloud-to groud,divided by 1/1000th of a second if u want a speed

Doesn't make sense
"To initiate a lightning storm, and then to take control of lightning in order to guide it to a target while using the shape manipulation shown above, drained even Sasuke of most of his chakra. However, the manipulation of the lightning itself requires little chakra."

I'm sorry, but this is just contradicting. How did the attack drain Sasuke of most of his chakra yet not use any chakra? Can someone please change this? Sasuke was tired because, like Itachi noted, Sasuke had no more chakra left.

And just for the record, the thunder clouds did come back, as seen when Itachi dropped dead... So idk about it being a one-time use :/ 76.235.7.222 (talk) 09:12, July 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * At least part of that refers to Sasuke's using the fire jutsu that formed the clouds, which both Sasuke and Itachi said depleted his chakra supplies. However, I'm not sure if and what part of the rest of it is from the databook and what parts are additional observations. ~SnapperTo 17:21, July 20, 2010 (UTC)

I get where you're coming from. But the way the sentence is phrased doesn't give off what you're stating. Perhaps a better version would be:

"The initiation of the lightning storm drained Sasuke of most of his chakra. However, the manipulation itself requires little chakra." 76.235.7.222 (talk) 04:47, July 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Which is why I said I'm not sure if some of the awkward portions are from the databook. ~SnapperTo 19:08, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

Dragon-esc jutsu
Seeing as they have never been stated as a Uchiha-specific jutsu, and only Sasuke has used them, the trivia was border on speculation. I changed it to ", which are also in the names of techniques that Sasuke uses"

"arrival of a sage"
I believe the Kirin is a mythical hooved Chinese chimerical creature known throughout various East Asian cultures, and is said to appear in conjunction with the arrival of a sage. It is a good omen that brings rui (Chinese: 瑞; pinyin: ruì; roughly translated as "serenity" or "prosperity").

I think we can assume that the sage could be Naruto, which suggests that Naruto and Sasuke's final confrontation will bring prosperity, Naruto and Nagato's goal.
 * i don't think we've ever leaned towards putting this kind of information in the articles...--Cerez (talk) 23:53, February 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * What about the influence section of the Susanoo article?
 * There's a difference between adding the myths about something and trying to suggest who the Naruto version of the "sage" is. ~SnapperTo 17:37, February 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * shouldn't we then add some mythical background for "Kirin" without implying a deeper meaning?
 * Theoretically yes, although I would imagine there are several myths featuring a kirin. Unless they all have something in common, it would either be difficult to pick which to mention or - if all are mentioned - the jutsu could quickly become the minority in its own article. ~SnapperTo 22:18, February 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure about the kirin appearing in conjunction with the arrival of a sage. However, I can tell you some things about the kirin. It's considered a holy creature, whose cry is a musical scale and whose footprints are perfect circles. It is very peaceful and careful, capable of walking on water and on grass without bending the blades. It doesn't eat meat either. It only appears in places ruled by a benevolent and wise leader and is well-known for punishing the wicked.
 * In Japan, the kirin is considered the ruler of beasts — as opposed to the hōō, the ruler of birds— and is usually placed above all other mythological creatures, including the ryū and hōō. It can live up to a millennium and wounding one or coming across its corpse is considered a bad omen. —ShounenSuki (talk 22:31, February 10, 2011 (UTC)

Literal name
Should we write "Kirin" in the "Literal English" line in infobox?--LeafShinobi (talk) 16:59, May 4, 2011 (UTC)

Raiton
How's this Raiton? Seelentau 愛議 13:09, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * Because he's controlling lightning?--Cerez365™☺ 13:14, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * But he isn't changing the nature of his chakra to lightning, thus not releasing lighning chakra. But that's what Raiton is. Seelentau 愛議 13:21, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well from what I understand they use their chakra to guide and manipulate natural lightning. I've never seen lightning in the sky in the form of a dragon before.--Cerez365™☺ 13:24, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * But that's not Raiton. Seelentau 愛議 13:26, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well he's clearly not using water release to manipulate the lightning ~_~ 99.135.185.43 (talk) 13:33, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * ...so what? He isn't using Raiton, either. Seelentau 愛議 13:36, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * If all he's doing is redirecting the lightning to an opponent, I don't see why this is listed as Lightning Release. When this page was created though, this was the description: "Kirin is a Lightning Release technique, without using the users own Lightning chakra."  ~ Fmakck©  (Images 14:57, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see it, either. That's why I'm asking. The word 雷遁 Raiton isn't even used on the databook's page about Kirin. On top of that I proved that it isn't Raiton, since he isn't doing what the term is describing. Seelentau 愛議 16:30, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * Technically, he does use a bit of lightning chakra to use this technique. You can see Sasuke "shooting", for the lack of better word, a small Chidori upwards to reach and control the natural lightning. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:28, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but that's Chidori, not Kirin. He isn't using Rai Chakra to create the jutsu. Seelentau 愛議 16:30, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * Third databook calls it "culmination of the Lightning nature". Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:34, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * It does. But not the culmination of Lightning release. You all know, Raiton is basically changing ones own chakra nature to Lightning and releasing that chakra. But he isn't releasing chakra to create this jutsu, thus it can't be Raiton by definition. Maybe the databook meant that it's the greatest jutsu that's using lightning. Seelentau 愛議 16:43, May 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * Actually, he is releasing chakra to create this technique. Without chakra, this technique would be nothing more than an ordinary lightning bolt. It would neither be shaped like a kirin, nor specifically directed at the opponent. The fact this technique is called the 'culmination of lightning nature' means Sasuke is transforming his normal chakra into lightning-natured chakra. The fact this technique uses lightning-natured chakra means it's a Raiton. —ShounenSuki (talk 17:52, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * When is he releasing chakra to create Kirin? He's using fire chakra, but I doubt that those dragons got some lighning chakra infused, too. The lightning comes from the air alone, Sasuke is just giving it some chakra to use Keitaihenka on it and directing the lightning to his opponent by using Chidori. Seelentau 愛議 18:17, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * Then if he has to use Chidori to direct it...isn't that in itself lightning release? because it wouldn't have gotten there on its own.--Cerez365™☺ 18:26, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * Chidori is Raiton, yes. But the term Raiton describes the release of lightning natured chakra and that is not what Kirin is. Kirin is a mass of lightning, created from the clouds. Seelentau 愛議 18:32, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * But what I'm trying to get at is that lightning release is a requirement to use it or else he wouldn't be able to guide it...
 * In that case, Kirin would be Katon too, since he needed it for using Kirin. Seelentau 愛議 18:39, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * Using Katon wouldn't be a necessity. There could've been a thunderstorm. The Katon is to create the right atmosphere for thunderclouds.It's just convenient is all.--Cerez365™☺ 18:43, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, you're right. But he's just needing the lightning chakra for Chidori and not for Kirin itself. So Kirin isn't Raiton, but Chidori is. Seelentau 愛議 18:49, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

It's a lightning element attack regardless of the chakra used for it, hell, adding lightning chakra may be completely pointless because it is already lightning natured. As you say, Raiton is a transformation of chakra into lightning, but since Kirin is already lightning, only requiring shape and direction, it doesn't need a transformation, thus why it is just Kirin and not Raiton: Kirin. It's not a technique that uses Raiton, but given we have no other term to describe techniques that harness naturally occuring elements, it is a Raiton-style technique. You are basically just arguing semantics as regarless of it's title or exact property, it is pelting someone with a bolt of lightning, it may not be a Lightning release, but it is a lightning element. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 19:05, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * Of course it's a lightning element Jutsu. But it is not Lightning Release, per definition. Maybe you should just put that in the Trivia or so. In the end I'm just the one who's pointing such things out, it's up to you what you do with my suggestions. Also, Chidori does need transformation but isn't Raiton: Chidori either. Seelentau 愛議 19:14, May 8, 2011 (UTC)


 * Without Sasuke using his lightning-natured chakra to guide the thunderbolt, there is no technique at all. Without Sasuke using his lightning-natured chakra, this is nothing more than a normal, naturally occurring bolt of lightning. it doesn't matter in any way whether or not the lightning-natured chakra he is using is Chidori or not. (There is no real evidence it is, by the way.) No matter how you twist or turn it, lightning-natured chakra is a vital requirement to evoke this technique. Hence it is a raiton. —ShounenSuki (talk 20:02, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * So the Raiton is solely based on the fact that he needs lightning chakra to control the technique? Okay... Seelentau 愛議 20:37, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * What else do you want to base it on? Most suiton don't actually create water, either, nor do most doton actually create earth. In any case, the nature is required to perform the technique. —ShounenSuki (talk 21:22, May 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * On nothing else, that's why I doubted that it's Raiton. But you're right, I overlooked the fact that many Doton and Suiton Jutsu don't create their elements, but using the already existing nature. Seelentau 愛議 21:45, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

Senjutsu
Kirin is a technique senjutsu??

Uh, no it isn't. I can see where you might get confused as both Kirin and Senjutsu harness naturally occuring energy, but Senjutsu requires the user to absorb Nature Chakra, Kirin is the Harnessing of Natural Lightning, virtually no chakra required. I hope this helps. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 06:53, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

Not to be rude, but Senjutsu and Kirin have nothing in common. Senjutsu are techniques that Sage's use after drawing in Natural Energy and entering Sage Mode. This just makes use of massive electrical currents jumping between thunderclouds. Also, please be sure to sign your posts by entering four of these ~ after your post. Skitts (talk) 08:37, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

Kirin creation
So, are you guys saying that it is possible to just MAKE thunderclouds with just a B-rank fire release great dragon fire technique? And then use a very little portion of chakra(he can) to shape and guide the kirin? It that is the case, then Sasuke is VERY overpowered. Plus, Zetsu commented that Ameterasu contributed to it, so I do not understand why in the description, it says, a powerful fire release technique is shot into the sky (It IS powerful, but did'nt ameterasu contribute 75%?)Hmph, I dont think that he can just MAKE thunderclouds and use kirin often if he wants to.We need to fix that edit in kirin. We need to add, along with ameterasu, or something.
 * This isn't a forum friend. The information is taken directly from the databook, we don't make the stuff up, we just chronicle it.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 10:59, August 2, 2012 (

UTC)So, ur saying that it is a FACT, that he dosent need the ameterasu to utilize kirin? Just the fire release great dragon fire technique?--Aeonophic (talk) 11:22, August 2, 2012 (UTC)Aeonophic

yes, or any other hot enough fire release technique.98.26.246.240 (talk) 11:38, August 2, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan

The databook never said it needed Amaterasu, but that doesn't mean it didn't help to heat up the atmosphere.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 12:04, August 2, 2012 (UTC)

If so, then which jutsu helped more, and by about what percent? --Aeonophic (talk) 13:38, August 3, 2012 (UTC)Aeonophic
 * The flames shot directly into the sky and it'd be the larger of the two percentages.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 13:42, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

Amaterasu doesn't appear to give off any extra heat... it burns slowly, and it's power is present only when the sight of the user is centered on a target. When burning alone, it's not stronger than a standard fire just it stays for a while and can't be extinguished--Elveonora (talk) 16:38, August 3, 2012 (UTC)