Talk:Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball

Composition?
Was that just a translation issue or didn't black zetsu say in ch689 that it was "wind, fire, earth, lightning, WOOD and yinyang" that the Gudodama is made of?--Transcendency (talk) 17:04, November 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Here is the answer.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg JOA20 17:06, November 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * It was. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:06, November 15, 2014 (UTC)

an observation
If I were to guess, the difference between Truth Seeking Ball and this, the Expansive Truth Seeking Ball is that while a user of TSB starts with a set amount of them levitating behind his back and if he loses them, they are gone for good and can't be regenerated, the ETSB on the other hand, can be generated as seen by Kaguya who made one from nowhere even though none levitate behind her back. Just thought it might be worth noting.--Elve Talk Page 17:53, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

Derived
So, is there a reason we say that the standard Truth-Seeking Ball is derived from this one? Like, does the databook state as such or something? Because I sense the logic behind this is that Kaguya used it, it's bigger than the average technique, and since Kaguya is the progenitor of chakra, this technique must be the progenitor of the lesser Truth-Seeking Ball. Please tell me that's not the case, because it is flimsy logic at best. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 18:14, August 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * That's Elveonora's logic for ya. 18:55, August 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * It's perfectly logical that a strong force can diminish its strength by splitting in numbers. There might be more, but they're much weaker in comparison.--Omojuze (talk) 18:57, August 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * It's also possible that Kaguya used the regular TSB first before expanding it. Like the Rasengan and Big Ball Rasengan. Also, I remember asking Tau about it. He told me this: Since "parent technique" is a fanmade term, it can apparently go either way. 19:03, August 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * It's not about her being progenitor of chakra, it's about her having been there before Hagoromo was born. Unless you suspect she copied his and Hamura's technique and made it bigger or something. So I think it's more likely she was the first user of TSB in history and since the only version she was seen using is this expansive one, it's parent.--Elve Talk Page 20:19, August 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * With there being deductions (from the recent movie) that Kaguya was the first person in the Naruto's World to have chakra, and with multiple Chakra Fruits/Shinju Trees existing in other planets, I sincerely doubt that it's such a case now. If what I read regarding "Boruto the Movie" is correct, then Momoshiki knew Kaguya on a regular basis. Not sure If I can find the source for this now, though, so don't take this for granted.--Omojuze (talk) 21:03, August 30, 2015 (UTC)

@Elve: And all of that is very well and good, but all of it relies on the speculation that she has ever used a TSB before the instance with Naruto and Sasuke. Key words in your argument are "I think" and "more likely". You don't know if this is TSB's parent. For all we know, she used it there for the very first time based on what she had seen her sons/their descendants do. You're asking for too big of a leap of faith to reach that logic. Remove it. It doesn't make any sense, for one, and two it isn't plausible unless you go way off into speculationville. 00:15, August 31, 2015 (UTC)~ Ten Tailed Fox
 * Well, technically, Shikotsumyaku is derived from Kaguya's stronger ability to manipulate her bone structure (stated in the databook), and the Rinne Sharingan is the progenitor of the Rinnegan and Sharingan (logically deduced).
 * So, based on those instances, Elve's logic does make sense. But again, looking at things like the Rasengan and the Big Ball Rasengan and how the smaller variant is the "parent" is legitimate as well. I can't choose. Ugh, Tau was right when he said "the lack of set guidelines [for determining which techniques are parent and derived] does more harm than good." 01:15, August 31, 2015 (UTC)
 * The point is, we simply don't know. There are instances in this series where logic provides a common sense connection between events/characters/techniques, etc. This isn't one of them. Unless Elve (or anyone else) is Kishi in disguise, then there is no amount of logic that can be given to prove this technique proceeded the standard TSB. Theories and speculations to the matter are fine, but they certainly shouldn't be treated as fact on the article. Tau is right, though. We need a more clear guideline on these matters. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 01:19, August 31, 2015 (UTC)