Forum:Solution Time: Images

Ok now I'm pissed. This is going to go on forever and will not end. I will start simply purging articles where there are image disputes (both past and present) if I must for us to get this shit down. I'm tired, you are tired. Everyone is tired. Nobody wants to compromise, this has been going on in the same dance for months.

We are going to solve this so both sides legitimately agree on. Not some grudgingly accepting of one side as "the best choice" no we did that before and we're still going through this. We are going to stop moving and pick a way that will solve everyone.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 14:02, March 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * With that said...what are you proposing? You could've at least given us options... --Cerez™☺ 14:04, March 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * I've had my solution and have been proposing it for months. Tabbing system or a dual images in the infobox. Both of which I lack the know-how to do unfortunately.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 14:07, March 31, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to point it out, but i recall that for some reason are the tabbing system not really working on this wikia(the dual images in the jutsu infoboxes). --Gojita (talk) 14:10, March 31, 2011 (UTC)Gojita


 * Then we figure out how to make it work or we figure some other solution because our current situation ain't workin.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 14:11, March 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * I support you TU3!!!! Dual images in the infobox is a good system and actually it will satisfy both sides of discussion!!!! The smaller images (usually the anime ones) on top and manga ones on bottom! (just saying) ... and if this can't happen! Well, as i said with Roshi! "Roshi's anime image is good, it only shows one side of his face! On the other hand the manga pic shows a 3/4 of his face! So may be the anime one could replace the other one in his appereance section!! The manga pic should stay on the infobox!" Fu's and Yagura's pics are really good!!!! No differences for me!!! Put those images in their infobox and the manga pics in the appereance section since they show more their bodies... i think! --Kiba91 (talk) 14:12, March 31, 2011 (UTC)

I suppose I'll say my piece then I absolutely hate image stacking in the infoboxes. That said I have no problem with either type of image but I do have a preference for manga images when usable (even though we don't get cheques >_>) As long as the anime image is an accurate depiction of the manga character (ie no major deviations from Kishimoto's work). It won't kill us to have variety on here. --Cerez™☺ 14:12, March 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * but now that you are talking about stacking images... the difference you are talking from Kishimoto's work and anime's work are in a majority about the eyes... referring to Konan's color eyes... while someone stacks her images... what happen to Kurotsuchi's and and Hanzo's pics? They differ only because of the color! C's manga pic was left because of the form of the eyes!... so what are the "facts" that everyone is considering to left the manga pic instead of the anime pic? --Kiba91 (talk) 14:18, March 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * Ehh, the reason for hanzo's image is because while there is no differences between the irishes the eye itself is white in the anime, whille in the manga it is black like kakuzu's. On to the main subject. The problem appears to be that some users think we should use absolut accuracy and can't ignore small details, like colour variation. --Gojita (talk) 14:21, March 31, 2011 (UTC)Gojita


 * Stacking is a crude method that can potentially be refined. It's an option, one I'm willing to take. However, this is not a discussion on the differences between the two images, this is a discussion on how to use both of them.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 14:23, March 31, 2011 (UTC)

The it's simple. We're supposed to aim for accuracy. And this is pretty much what we're doing now...
 * Manga image used first anime image used later when animated.
 * If there's a coloured manga image then it's moved to the "appearance" section once there is no discrepancy with the anime image.
 * If there are, then the revere is done. --Cerez™☺ 14:30, March 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * i gave that just as an exemple! We're trying to reach a solution for this eternal battle from Anime and Manga pics! I never said to ignore details! (Just what happen to Ko's case!that's smth where the manga pic should have totally preference) But color eyes i think is just a detail! as you said... a small one!... anywho, i support TU3's option of dual images. Or at least we need to solve what will happen to the jinchurikis and the bijus! --Kiba91 (talk) 14:27, March 31, 2011 (UTC)

Alright, trying not to be rude here. But i believe you orignally wanted to discuss the dispute about which image to choose and then in your next comment suggested that we somehow use both. Thus i conclude the tophic is how to settle the dispute, not how to use both. I say this because in this discussion and the previous one, we already agreed on the fact that stacking is something most of us dislike. Once again, sorry i am not trying to be rude. --Gojita (talk) 14:31, March 31, 2011 (UTC)Gojita


 * you're not being rude!!! but the stacking image is a solution to satisfie everyone in here! I'm just supporting TU3 suggestion! that's all --Kiba91 (talk) 14:34, March 31, 2011 (UTC)

It was for this reason I told Ulti-chan to give the discussion guidelines....--Cerez™☺ 14:35, March 31, 2011 (UTC)

Eh... a little bit of tophic, but seeing how this affect the entire wikia and seeing how vast amount of contibutors we have, i would like to suggest that we somehow advertise this tophic other places on the wikia in the hopes that more poeple would voice thier opinion. --Gojita (talk) 14:38, March 31, 2011 (UTC)Gojita


 * Unless I typed it wrong, the solution I outlined was indeed ment to use both which would settle the dispute. As I originally said, this discussion is not about choosing one or the other  Ah that is where I said it. I didn't post it here apparently. When I said that will serve everyone, that is exactly what I ment. One side wants to use manga no matter what. Use manga no matter what. The other wants to use anime, thats fine we're going to use that too. Don't apologize, you just pointed out that I didn't say everything I ment in one place.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 14:39, March 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * Also, I would prefer if others at the very least tried to come up with wildly different solutions or something, so this is less of a "TU3 trying to shoehorn a massive change to the Wiki" and more of a "The community has decided they want to end this war" type of deal.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 14:41, March 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, we could simply use whichever one is the most high quality.

Or, we could use the manga image in the infobox and have the anime picture in the appearance section.Ryne 91 (talk) 14:43, March 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * @Gojita: I've been trying to edit the News Bar for months. But I get the feeling I'm not a high enough admin to edit it.
 * @Ryne: That is what we are already doing. This is the result.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 14:45, March 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * @Gojita: If it isn't completely obvious, I'm a complete noob with Wikia code.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 14:47, March 31, 2011 (UTC)

Another solution as pointed out by Cerez™ is that we stop this(i can't put it more delicate due to my own opinions and how far this have come) crusade against images that are not complete and perfect copies of Kishi's work and i am going to be verry blunt now. I am not that much better myself, but currently we only have a few users who staunchly removes all anime images when there is the slightest difference while most of the community adds the animated versions when they arrive. I mean look at the upload logs everytime a new episode airs. Look at how everyone gladly adds images of the raikage, even though his hair is not as bleached as Kishimoto's one single colour drawing of him. And the same with Fu and Torune, despite the fact that Fu's nose is not the correct size and Torun'es hair looks different. And i can go on(thank god i am not using my voice for this, or i would have a sour throat by now) and i am sorry for voicing my opinion this way, but it is one the last methods i have yet to use --Gojita (talk) 14:55, March 31, 2011 (UTC)Gojita


 * Yes, give into your anger. It makes you stronger. Dark Side, Dark Side, Daaaaaaaark Siiiiiiiiiiide. /Palpatine....couldn't resist. (SWTOR is going to pwn so hard)
 * That said, yes I am aware that there is gap between who prefer manga images over anime images is large. Thankfully this isn't a democracy, so the majority rule doesn't apply here. Both sides (usually) have good, reasonable reasons as to why their image should be used. Which is why this discussion can even take place.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 14:58, March 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * To be honest, I completely prefer the anime over the manga, in terms of pictures. Most of them seem to be highter quality to me. As you said, we are not trying to come to a grudging agreement though. We're trying to solve this is one shot.Ryne 91 (talk) 15:01, March 31, 2011 (UTC)

Come on we do not need dual images in the infobox.We can have the anime image in the infobox and the manga image in the appearance section of a character page.--Shinobi Master (talk) 15:26, March 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * Nice to see that there is also room for humor TU3 :D Now back on tophic. Might i remind people that part of this dispute is also due to the current image rules on this wikia(if i remember correctly they were never changed, right???) To be honest, yes my argument does imply that the majority rules and that we are a democracy, though i tried to lean the argument more towards, "that is how it has always been done on this wikia" and in most discussions about this most people lean towards it, but we are sadly still unable to reach an agreement :(. --Gojita (talk) 15:59, March 31, 2011 (UTC)Gojita


 * That is true. We've always have been doing it that way. We have also been dealing with the whole manga vs anime issue, just not as heated. 3 years ago, it more little more than "We prefer manga images" or some such, people would complain, and then that would be the end of it so we never had to sit down and actually discuss things. Now three years later, it is much more heated and here we are.
 * @Shinobi Master:We don't need to have images in the infobox period to be honest. However I doubt people would like that very much.
 * Also, I have class soon and will be in class until 7ish (my day is quite busy) so when I stop posting, I'll be in class.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 16:05, March 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * @TheUltimate3, we probably don't need infoboxes but people do prefer them as well as the images.I would just like to stat they are just images not a big deal.If there is a minor difference between the characters appearance in the manga or anime it can be easily noted in the article.We do not need dual images.--Shinobi Master (talk) 16:14, March 31, 2011 (UTC)

It would seem that we are reaching a conclusion(seemingly in favour of using anime images withouth considering the smaller differences) but ShounenSuki have yet to be heard. --Gojita (talk) 16:44, March 31, 2011 (UTC)Gojita


 * I don't consider that a conclusion. That would just flip what we have now.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 17:10, March 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * To elaborate; if this is the "conclusion" then it is just going by what you and I have said earlier, the anime images are preferred more than the manga images, which would turn this into a democracy and all that jazz. As I've said before, there is reasoning behind both which is why we need to find a conclusion for everyone.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~  17:20, March 31, 2011 (UTC)

Stop the spam
I'm gonna say this once, why is there even a debate? Use the image that is accurate to display the character. Which one is accurate? Obviously one that matches the original artwork in the manga. If you want to use anime images, I'm not going to listen to any crap about consistency with other infobox images or "I <3 anime" and "i need color!". What do I want to see below my comment? Give me a good solid reason why you think we should use an inaccurate image over an accurate image in the first picture a viewer sees when they start reading a characters article and then defend that reason, or try giving me a reason why that picture doesn't need to be accurate. S im A nt 17:29, March 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * 1) Why is there a debate?
 * Because this constant image changing has been going on for months with no end in sight. I'm tired. You're tired. Everyone is tired. We need to get this done via a compromise, not one side grudgingly accepting the other.
 * 2) "Solid Reason for using Inaccurate Image over an Accurate Image"
 * Because I'm tired of two sides constantly fighting over it. We use both, no reason to argue. A compromise. Everyone wins.
 * 3) "First Picture"
 * Actually unsure how this relates to this whole thing.

I know I'm a broken record with this, but I can't stress it enough. We've been holding the manga over the anime for a long time. I get it. However this little war has never stopped. I want it to stop. Clearly just saying "use the manga" hasn't stopped it. And I know "use the anime" will not stop it. We need to compromise here so that everyone will stop fighting over it. (And now as of 1:36PM EST, I am off to class. See you in about 5 or so hours.)--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 17:36, March 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * I say the problem is we aren't doing enough banning for people ignoring the current policy without trying to discuss changes to it with solid logic. S im A nt 17:40, March 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * I personally think the current policy is good. We have manga images for the infobox, where appropriate, and we have anime pictures in the rest of the article. Aren't we all winning? Anyways, I second what SimAnt said.Ryne 91 (talk) 17:42, March 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * Quite draconian of you. I am all for the banning of vandals and the like, but not so much banning people with legitimate concerns. Regardless the stance you two (well three because I can bet gold that ShounenSuki will come in with a long response in favor of manga as well. Simply a matter of time) will not end this war, nor will a million pointless banning solve it either. Clearly there is a split, a solution that satisfies everyone must be found.
 * And because of my desire to see what Simant would say I have 5 mintues to make a 10 minute walk. Joy for me. Now I'll see you guys in so-and-so hours.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 17:48, March 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * And if we did have a compromise, what then? Write it into the policy page that I was gonna ban people for not reading/obeying? S im A nt 17:54, March 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * well, this has turned out to be quite a devate!!! And i think everyone is getting tired! I know here isn't a democracy but may be and just may be, that could be the only solution! (i have to point that i'm not that into the thing of being democratic) but hey guys, if we continue like this, as TU3 said, this war will never end!! But well, that could be just a sally comment from me! Anyway, this discussion is about the "preferences" right? I don't see a big problem to use dual images to satisfie both sides of the discussion... some will see the manga and some will see the anime... as simple as that... those who prefer the anime well, they are going to change and replace all manga pics, no matter what we do... and of cours, those who do the anime will never be able to copy the exact same work as Kishimoto... and this is just going to be an endless cycle... Other solution is (like everyone is saying: if more people prefere the anime pics) well then, let them be and let them put the anime pic on the infoboxes... and if there exist a difference between the anime and manga, put the manga in the appereance section (i would suggest that it could be vise-versa but the war also starts becuz some people doesn't want that option either)... the manga pics will only be in exceptional cases like "Ko Hyuga" where his entire design is completely different or manga pics that never appeared in the anime... that's another option... (personally, i don't have problems with neither the manga or the anime [the anime as long as it is quite similar as Kishi's work or the difference is very little) but well... this is what i could say, what i could think and what i could write... in conclusion... i hardly suggest and recommend to use TU3 dual image option... but that's up to the admis --Kiba91 (talk) 18:06, March 31, 2011 (UTC)

Both w/out stacking
I'm sure Simant has explained this before, but why wouldn't tabs or whatever work? A link to said explanation would be fine.

Would Toggle work if the functionality were enabled for this wiki? Because I was screwing around with it on the One Piece wiki and it doesn't look like it causes a problem in infoboxes (granted, they don't use semantics, which consistently makes x3 unforeseen problems). ~SnapperTo 19:11, March 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * As I recall i got "complaints" when I used Template:Infobox/Slideshow, because people couldn't see slideshows in monobook... S im A nt 21:07, March 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * Which apparently works now in monobook... thanks staff for the update! /sarcasm. S im A nt 21:21, March 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm starting to remember that now. Wasn't there also an issue with the way images can be added to the slideshow? If so, that seems to have been removed (or I don't remember how to access it). Nevermind; it's still there. But is it still a problem? ~SnapperTo 21:46, March 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict x2) I've been dizzy from so much back and forth editing in the recent changes page it took me a while to find this. My opinion is that should there be a dispute on anime vs manga images, we should put both with one of these methods (sldeshow or tab). I see that slide has suddenly become an option. Should that prove to be more difficult than Simant anticipated, I think it's valid to ask for outside help. Joeyaa, who now works for wikia I think, has experience with wiki code, he used to do a lot of code work in the Avatar Wiki, between him and Simant, I think something might come through. Now if that doesn't work out, I'll have to go through a very careful consideration regarding what type of image I prefer, though right now, I think that it should be a case-by-case thing, seeing which image is preferable in each character instance. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:50, March 31, 2011 (UTC)

Bright new day. A new day for continued discussion, or has everyone said their piece and waiting for others to drop in with something new?
 * Also, the infoboxes I purged will be unlocked and restored to their original states now, but will be purged again if a war breaks out. Warned everyone has.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 11:14, April 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * And it would seem the tabbing does indeed work (I haven't noticed) so if we can set it up to the character infoboxes we're golden.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 12:54, April 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * I believe our crisis, is over.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 13:22, April 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * Will need some minor editing, as I do not know how to move that Ref point, but we can now put two images in the infobox, both an anime and a manga image. Both sides wins.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 13:25, April 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok I may have jumped the gun there. Because I somehow broke the on page "edit" button with my tinkering and have thus reverted back to its pre-tinkering form. The point is, it works. Just gotta iron out the issues.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 13:27, April 1, 2011 (UTC)

Alright, now the edit button is working, but it is still stacking look Konan --Gojita (talk) 14:19, April 1, 2011 (UTC)Gojita


 * That's because I completely reverted it back it's original form. As I said, I jumped the gun and this is going to require some bugfixes before it is really up and running. TheUltimate3 currently in Class. Suck it authority! --131.118.85.215 (talk) 14:50, April 1, 2011 (UTC)

Just a thought: on Memory Alpha they place two pictures in some of the characters infoboxes, one at the top and one at the bottom. Is that something that could work? Jacce | Talk | Contributions 15:25, April 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * I think that is the stacking thing we are trying to avoid... --Gojita (talk) 15:34, April 1, 2011 (UTC)Gojita
 * Ok so I guess I should explain why I havent worked on the infobox yesterday like i said. Turns out I have my third math exam on monday. As math is by far my worst subject, kinda preoccupied. Deepest apologizes.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 11:00, April 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * now that we got that semi-out of the way, i'm gonna say manga images first in the slideshow. ^.^ S im A nt 20:42, April 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Awesome job SimAnt, I already started on that manga images first decor~. --Cerez™☺ 20:45, April 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * finally! well, i would suggest, if the anime pic is quite good and similar to kishi's good, it should be the first... if it has a lot of differences, well then, the manga pic first! :P --Kiba91 (talk) 20:46, April 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * @Cerez... i didn't new you speak spanish xD --Kiba91 (talk) 20:46, April 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Manga first, not that it really matters now, I guess - they do switch like every 5 seconds. And good work on this slideshow business ^_^  ~ Fmakck© → Talk → Contributions ~ 20:48, April 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * i'm still tinkering with the css which i suck at to make the borders and stupid features go away. S im A nt 20:57, April 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Forgot to ask, will it be done to the tool pages as well?--Cerez™☺ 21:13, April 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * I just wish the quality of some images won't go down 'cause of the slideshows.  ~ Fmakck© → Talk → Contributions ~ 21:16, April 2, 2011 (UTC)

Just going to ask about one thing. It looks good and all, besides the borders. But could you at least make it so that can people can choose for themselves which image they wish to view instead of the constant changing??? --Gojita (talk) 11:37, April 3, 2011 (UTC)Gojita
 * I am starting to see this slideshow as a bad thing, seeing how many of the images are being sized down way to much. --Gojita (talk) 12:14, April 3, 2011 (UTC)Gojita
 * Is it possible for the slideshow to switch to portrait mode if there is one or two images in the portrait format?  ~ Fmakck© → Talk → Contributions ~ 12:18, April 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * If you don't see it here then it is not possible with this slideshow. S im A nt 16:22, April 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't see how this slideshow could be a problem. Just like any other system that is implemented it takes time to develop and such. I'm sure that if it can be improved it will. Stop harbour sharking the thing --Cerez™☺ 16:59, April 5, 2011 (UTC)

Other possible use
Now that it's possible to use slides in infoboxes, there also another possibility for us to use it. We could use those to add part I and part II images in infoboxes, or for characters that have changed significantly. I'm fine with the current "show them as they were first shown" policy, but should noise be made over putting images like those in infoboxes (like part II images, Madara's old look, Kabuto's new look), this would be a way to settle it, and it would help to remove some clutter for pages that have those images in appearances section. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:01, April 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * agreed! :) --Kiba91 (talk) 00:03, April 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * Will this be implemented on articles outside of characters? I know that some ninja tools, like the Lightning Barrel, and some jutsu have two pictures in the infobox.Ryne 91 (talk) 00:08, April 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * Disagree on both. --Gojita (talk) 11:36, April 3, 2011 (UTC)Gojita
 * I thought this discussion was about image use in all the infoboxes, in which everyone didn't want multiple images on top of each other. S im A nt 16:22, April 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd actually like to see Madara+mask and a mask-less Madara in the infobox. Not sure about the Kabuto's new look.  ~ Fmakck© → Talk → Contributions ~ 12:19, April 3, 2011 (UTC)

Tabber
Since I am still being complained to... Infobox:Konan S im A nt 18:40, April 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * iLike. I suppose this will end the complaints of quality being "lost"--Cerez™☺ 18:45, April 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, I like that even more than the slideshow. The applications of those tabs are quite great in number. Theoretically, Part 1 and Part 2 tabs could easily be added.Ryne 91 (talk) 18:57, April 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * Nice~ That was actually what I was suggesting all the way in the beginning of the manga vs anime image war. —ShounenSuki (talk 19:20, April 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * And that was the stance I have been on since this whole war started. Though I will say images should remain Part I, as to avoid unnecessary clutter from 4 tabs in the infobox. Either way, this pretty much settles the Image War.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 19:45, April 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * I wasn't actually saying that we "should" have tabs for Part 1 and Part 2, though we "could." And why would we have four tabs in any infobox, even if we did do that? The only ones that really changed their appearances in Part 2 were the Konoha 11 (plus Sasuke) and the Sand Siblings. The only one of those that really looks any different in the anime than in the manga, as far as I know, is Ino, and that's just because of her eye color.
 * But again, I don't mean to imply that I think we should do this. Do it or not, I don't really care. I was just saying that it is possible.Ryne 91 (talk) 19:50, April 5, 2011 (UTC)

I said four because now that the tabbing works, ideally, we can go with Part I/Original Appearance Manga image, Part I/Original Appearance Anime image for the characters. Adding Part II to that would mean 2 more tabs.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 19:56, April 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * I should note that I am against using the tabber on jutsu pages. I only expect it to be used for Anime vs. Manga on character pages. S im A nt 20:42, April 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * agreed^--Cerez™☺ 20:44, April 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * SimAnt, what if one jutsu is noticeably different in appareance when used by different shinobi? It's more a question of curiosity than anything. I'm not favoring one way or another.Ryne 91 (talk) 20:46, April 5, 2011 (UTC)