User talk:Seelentau

Kakashi's Eyes
Guys like @Reliops and @Thdyingbreed keep bringing up this link to the Viz translation of Naruto #688. They want to prove that Kakashi's eyes are temporary. I know Obito said "it has a fixed time limit," but "it" could be the eyes or the Susanoo. Obito, in the same page that supposedly proves the eyes are temporary, also said "Plus, it's gonna keep bothering me that this eye I gave you to celebrate your promotion came back to me." Obito doesn't want Kakashi to die soon. He gives Kakashi his eyes (for Kakashi to possibly carry Obito's dream of being Hokage) in the same context of Kakashi receiving the left eye due to being promoted to jonin. So if Obito doesn't intend for Kakashi to lose his eyes (that's a good assumption, right? Given what Obito said), why would he make them temporary? What makes more sense is that the Susanoo has the "fixed time limit" because eventually Kakashi will run out of chakra. My question is, What do the raws say? What did Obito say about being bothered by receiving the gift back in the uppermost right panel of the page I linked in the raw? And what did the raw say about the "fixed time limit" in the bottom right panel? And what do you think about the Susanoo being temporary rather than the eyes (since Obito doesn't want to get them back)? Another bombarding of questions, but thanks in advance! WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 23:16, August 18, 2014 (UTC)

Tailed Beast Song
Can you confirm if this change to the poem is correct? Thanks. --SuperSajuuk Talk Page 22:37, August 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks! :) --SuperSajuuk Talk Page 09:36, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

好き
Schnauze voll von Englisch momentan! Ich wollt' die Diskussion hier fortführen, wenn dir das recht ist. :)

Was du über "好き" und "大好き" gesagt hast stimmt zwar, hat aber im Alltagsgebrauch eine etwas andere Konnotation. "Suki" wird allumfassend verwendet, wenn man etwas gut findet. Dabei sind die Grenzen fließend zwischen "mögen" und "lieben", das muss man anhand der entsprechenden Situation erkennen. Wenn man allerdings "daisuki" verwendet, dann gibt man schon an, dass man etwas so sehr mag, dass es "fast schon Liebe ist", und daher hat sich das dann mit der Zeit im Sprachgebrauch gefestigt....wird aber hin und wieder auch überspitzt benutzt und kann daher auch als Parodie dienen. "Aishiteiru" zuletzt bedeutet ganz klar "lieben", aber, und das ist der Knackpunkt, in 95% der Fälle im romantischen Sinne. Man kann es damit vergleichen, dass man "ich liebe es" anders verwendet als "ich liebe dich". Im Endeffekt wird die Sache dadurch kompliziert, da der Gebrauch dieser Begriffe kontext-abhängig ist und Japanisch sowieso sehr von der japanischen Mentalität beeinflusst wird, was eine direkte Übersetzung sehr schwierig macht. Das war ja überhaupt der Grund, warum ich das Thema angesprochen hab, da es beides heißen kann, aber zwischen "like" und "love" ein himmelweiter Unterschied liegt.

Da ich hier ja keine links verschicken darf: Google einfach mal "suki daisuki" und geh auf die Foren-Diskussion "Suki, Daisuki, Aishiteru: Like or Love?". Der Nutzer "Mugi" hat das ganz gut zusammengefasst, finde ich. Tut mir leid wegen des langen Textes! :D Norleon (talk) 13:28, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ja, ich meine, wir haben uns vor Ewigkeiten auch mal auf Deutsch unterhalten....weiß aber nicht mehr, warum. :D
 * Ich vermute, dass er tatsächlich "suki" verwendet, da die ganze Szene eine Anspielung auf Kakashis erste Begegnung mit Team 7 ist, wo er ja "kirai" verwendete und nicht "daikirai", was ja das Gegenstück zu "Daisuki" wäre. Aber wir werden sehen! :) Norleon (talk) 15:30, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya six paths senjutsu
Now that she has used TSB, would you list her? Because from what we could observe, SPS is what allows TSB--Elveonora (talk) 18:11, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * It wasn't stated, but Naruto's TSB appeared after he got SPS and all Tailed Beasts' chakras. Both Obito and Madara's TSB appeared when they became jinchs and when Obito formed the TSB staff to deflect Madara's TSB, Madara called it Sage Transformation.--Elveonora (talk) 18:16, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Same thing? Point being, becoming TT jinch gives Six Paths Senjutsu and Truth Seeking Balls, so it would seem the latter is possible because of the former.--Elveonora (talk) 18:33, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Not sure if it's relevant though. What I wanted to focus on is if you think TSB require SPS or not. But it would be good to bring this to relevant talkpage. Because we either remove SPS as parent to TSB or not. If it's a parent, then Kaguya is also a user of SPS.--Elveonora (talk) 14:40, August 21, 2014 (UTC)

So you don't disagree she has it then? That's what matters.--Elveonora (talk) 15:44, August 21, 2014 (UTC)

We know only as much as we are revealed by the author. So what we know at a time, is true at the time that's how it works. Just like Tobi being Madara was true at the time. We listed it even though we had doubts, because we were told so. So why start making exceptions now? If x seems to be true according to y, we list x as true until proven otherwise, as simple as that--Elveonora (talk) 09:19, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

But we know the important things. Becoming the Ten-Tails' jinch grants Six Paths Senjutsu. Kaguya is the Ten-Tails, so she logically has to have whatever her jinchuuriki get. Madara said Naruto got Six Paths Senjutsu and he got Truth Seeking Balls along with that, just like TT jinchs do. From that we know TSB and SPS are related. I see no reason to omit Kaguya then.--Elveonora (talk) 09:27, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

... the 9 Tailed Beasts' chakras are but a part of the Ten-Tails, so it's not wrong.--Elveonora (talk) 09:40, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

Let me know once you are done with your analysis. I won't know otherwise, because I have namespace/filter set only to talk, filetalk and infoboxtalk. But I don't suspect it will be done anytime soon, it's quite a bit of work.--Elveonora (talk) 11:14, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but the complete TT is with the TB's chakras included. If TBs allow SPS, why wouldn't TT with their charkas (which were originally hers, you know) provide/use SPS? For the analysis, haha xD Get some sugar, apparently it helps make the brain think or something, or was it salt? Swallow both at once :P--Elveonora (talk) 11:56, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

For the TB, I have understood all along what you meant, but what if the SPS was in the dough in the first place and the TB give SPS because they are made of said dough, not because of added raisins or salt--Elveonora (talk) 12:11, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

I never said it was necessary, I was arguing if Kaguya has the SPS because she is the Ten-Tails :P As you said, Madara and Obito didn't meet Hagoromo, so SPS isn't from him, so it must be from the Ten-Tails. The question is if the Ten-Tails had SPS before or after added raisins and salt to her chakra--Elveonora (talk) 12:19, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

Opinions needed
Shu talk page. Munchvtec (talk) 15:04, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

apparently :-/
I aimed a religious remark at you. Did you notice anything insulting of that sort coming from me at your person?--Elveonora (talk) 17:08, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Just a refreshers, since I did delete it pretty quickly. From this thread: "Elveonora said: 'I don't want to bring much religion into this, but just in case you are Christian Seel, I suppose you believe that God made Adam out of dirt and yet, he had dick and balls obviously. So just because the Tailed Beasts were created from chakra doesn't mean they weren't created with reproductive organs, that's really not an argument.' " ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 17:15, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Show me the insult part. Also Seel asked to leave him out of these discussions--Elveonora (talk) 17:18, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * I didn't even read that. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:22, August 25, 2014 (UTC)

Rōmaji
Hello. Something's been bothering me: do the rōmaji have rules about capital letters or not?-- JOA20 17:56, August 26, 2014 (UTC)

Japanese
hey buddy...hope I'm not disturbing...I was considering Rosetta Stone for learning Japanese...is it helpful...or should I go into an academy or something...& also, how did you learn this language...--DARK ZER06 (talk) 05:05, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

so actually
We don't even know the actual extent of powers given to Naruto and Sasuke by Hagoromo. Most people assume that Six Paths Senjutsu and Rinnegan were given to them by Hagoromo, but it's also likely he didn't have anything to do with those and gave them just the tattoos. Because after all, it seems 9 TBs' chakras + Senjutsu = Six Paths Senjutsu or so and Sasuke was given chakra by Hashirama and Kabuto transplanted possibly Hash cells into him and that might be what resulted in the Rinnegan--Elveonora (talk) 11:48, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

Rikudō no Sennin Chakura
Do you happen to have the kanji for this? ~ Ten Tailed Fox 17:08, August 27, 2014 (UTC)


 * Agreed and will do. I don't want to involve you in talk page nonsense, so I'll only ask you once. Given the translations you've read, is it your belief that Kaguya has the Six Paths Senjutsu? I'm all too happy to add her (though it would be odd for her to have a move named after her son), if there is significant evidence in the text, but I'm not seeing it. Even Rikudō no Sennin Chakra could just be referring to the fact that he is the Sage of the Six Paths. Thoughts? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 17:15, August 27, 2014 (UTC)


 * I suppose I've never heard it explained like that before. I agree with that. Okay, we'll wait, but I will keep that bit of information in mind. Thank you. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 17:23, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

Upcoming Chapters
Ok, I am not asking for the website for these. I know that isn't allowed here. But can I ask you this: From now on, due to the "piracy" thing, when will the official release of chapter 690 come out and when will the unofficial release of 690 come out? Again, I am asking when and not where I can find these chapters --- for I would get in trouble if I did. I'm simply asking for the dates of both releases and NOT the websites. Thanks. WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contribs) 22:04, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

Re: Current situation in Japan
From what I understand, the big three manga publishers, Shueisha (Weekly Shōnen Jump, on sale Mondays), Kodansha (Weekly Shōnen Magazine, on sale Wednesdays), and Shogakukan (Weekly Shōnen Sunday, on sale Wednesdays) have changed their shipping policies in an attempt to reduce the spread of spoilers and English bootlegs before street date.

At this point, I don't have any way of knowing how long the delay for scanlations will be, since that depends on when their raw providers will get access to the books. I don't read either of these series, but apparantly Fairy Tail (Weekly Shōnen Magazine) and Kenichi: The Mightiest Disciple (Weekly Shōnen Sunday), which previously leaked on Fridays, were both delayed until Tuesday.

If Weekly Shōnen Jump is delayed by the same amount, it probably means that the bootleg scanlations will be out on Sundays from now on. We'll have to wait and see. And though I'm not actually expecting it to happen at this time, I wouldn't be surprised if Viz Media makes another legal push against the bootleg scanlators soon. Viz is, of course, a subsidiary of both Shueisha and Shogakukan, and with the official English Weekly Shonen Jump publishing simultaneously with Japan and debuting their new "Jump Start!" feature next month, it's very much in their interest to reduce piracy. FF-Suzaku (talk) 08:23, August 28, 2014 (UTC)


 * Their efforts won't last.--TheUltimate3 Amegakure_Symbol.svg (talk) 08:46, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Hagoromo and Telescope Jutsu
Hagoromo was looking into his Truth-Seeking Ball when he said that it is all over. Either he's a sensor or he used this jutsu. You removed him from the Telescope Jutsu page, so, are you going to list him as a Sensor?--Omojuze (talk) 14:13, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Re: Raws?
Hello my friend- how are you today? I regret to inform you that the image I uploaded was not one of the raw images, but just a photo that I cleverly edited so that it could be uploaded onto this wiki without dealing with any copyright issues. I have been waiting for the raws to upload that image, but since they have not yet been released, I just decided to take manners into my own hands. Like I said before, I apologize for the misunderstanding, and let me know if there is anything I can help you with. Thanks, and have a nice day! --KirinNOTKarin98 (talk) 02:04, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

Hanmac?
that depends from which you might know you ... if you are maybe from Pokewiki yes i am, but i didnt had time for that wiki or new pokemon games anymore hanmac (talk) 15:27, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * yeah i still know you, hm might be possible that i still have you in my icq or msn contact lists if you where inside of them before. but like i said i dont have much time for Pokewiki or Pokemon in general anymore (i am also a bit disappointed about the few new pokemon in the last games) ... my currently hobby that eats most of my time is reading Naruto FanFiction, an maybe try writing my own of my skill have increased ;P hanmac (talk) 11:06, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

TSB (again)
On Naruto's page, it says he's a user of Wood Release (probably cuz of the TSB). I thought that was an error, because the Kanji for Water and Wood are similar, and that just Kaguya's TSB have all five elements with Yin and Yang. Wouldn't be surprised if Kaguya is a Wood Release user (I mean, she did fuse with a tree), but not because of the TSB. Wasn't wood a mistake in place of water? Should Naruto be listed as a Wood Release user? And also, didn't Naruto say that his TSB were similar in the text raws and not the same? Naruto probably does have all five elements, with the TSB and Tailed Beasts, but how is he a Wood Release user? WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contribs) 19:12, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then can you remove it then? I have a feeling that if I remove the Wood Release thing off Naruto's page, I'll be asking for an edit war. WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contribs) 22:32, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

Rebuttal Magnet Release analysis
I did you the courtesy of taking my time to read your analysis of Magnet Release very carefully and objectively. Here is my rebuttal.

Regarding Jinton and the eye markings: though you briefly consider the possibility of it being a different type, the main thrust of your analysis is based on the assumption that Toroi's Jiton is identical to that of Gaara's father (hereafter YK, as shorthand for Yondaime Kazekage), Gaara and Shukaku. This is demonstrably false. Lava Release has been used in a variety of ways. Jiton would appear to be no different for the following reasons:
 * Toroi's Jinton weaponised his weapons through attraction using metallic tools that are inherently magnetic.
 * YK, Gaara and Shukaku used Jinton through repulsion using non-magnetic material like gold dust and sand.
 * The two are fundamentally different and thus not one and the same.
 * Those that use repulsion, i.e. YK, Gaara and Shukaku, all have ringed eyes.

Thus, the eye rings are related to Magnet Release and this is apparent in 3/5 cases in which the 3 use identical jutsu and fighting styles. More accurately, 3/3 users of the same variation of Jinton have the rings. In fact, the very assertion that the rings around the eyes bear no relation to Jiton was disingenuous and intellectually dishonest given the context of their reveal.

Additional points:
 * As you pointed out in your old analysis (and mysteriously left out of your new analysis) Naruto does not mould the chakra for Jiton himself, thus there is no reason to believe he would display the rings around his eyes. The fact he doesn't is indicative of Gaara possessing Jiton by himself because he does knead his own chakra.
 * It would have been impossible for the Sandaime Kazekage to base his Jiton, Iron ''Sand, on Shukaku's style if Shukaku never used it to manipulate sand. It is unknown whether the Sandaime Kaze gained rings around his eyes when he was alive, but given the pattern, it is likely.

In regards to Shukaku, your analysis falls apart because I have proven by example of YK that Jiton users do not have to be its jinchūriki to use its variation Jiton. YK uses identical Jiton to Shukaku and his son, only exercised through different material.

With regards to Naruto's inconsistent use of sand, as I pointed in the thread: Shukaku has two distinct abilities: cursed seals and sand manipulation. Both are part of Shukaku's Jiton. The first time Naruto used Jiton, his intention was to seal Madara. The second time it was to attack Kaguya.

Assuming you can now see that Shukaku and Gaara do in fact magnetise sand, then you ought to be able to realise that the fact Naruto cannot use Jiton on his own is indicative of the fact that Gaara's Jiton, while the same, is not tied to Shukaku.

Though not outright confirmed, it is also noteworthy that YK stated Gaara's constant defence is very likely a constant defence mechanism through some kind of will materialisation by Gaara's mother, which would explain Ultimate Defence and ringed eyes after he lost Shukaku's protection.

So to conclude.
 * There are different types of Jiton, based on attraction and repulsion through magnetism
 * Toroi does not have the same type of Jiton as YK, Gaara and Shukaku
 * Ringed eyes are related to the type of magnetism demonstrated by YK, Gaara and Shukaku
 * It is possible, if not outright more likely, that Gaara's Jiton came from his father rather than Shukaku

I hope you do me the same courtesy of reading my rebuttal with the same care and objectivity as I did yours.--Reliops (talk) 20:29, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry for butting in, but to me it seems like you at first tried to prove the relation between the hypothetical Magnet Release of Gaara's and Shukaku, but then you state that Gaara's Magnet came from his father instead, so which?

Also I know you will likely yell at me that retcons happen and that false information is given sometime, but Gaara's rings were stated to be because of insomnia and that's a manga fact, outdated or not--Elveonora (talk) 20:34, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * And Shukaku was stated to be a priest turned to a demon. Tobi was stated to be Madara Uchiha. The Nine-Tails referred to itself as a living mass if evil. The Ten-Tails was a creature devoid of feelings or ideals. Now how about you let Seelentau make his rebuttal.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 20:38, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

@Elve, my argument is that Gaara has Magnet Release, either through his father or Shukaku. It's more likely he got it genetically because his father's ringed eyes and statement regarding his ultimate defence/mother would make those unrelated to Shukaku, and even if that wasn't the case and it was Shukaku that allowed Gaara to use Magnet Release, the fact that Gaara can use it without still makes him a Magnet Release user. Either way, my bases are covered.--Reliops (talk) 20:53, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

Also of note is that of YK's three children, Gaara was the only compatible one. Probably doesn't have to do with body strength, considering he was premature. Its possible Magnet is a prerequisite. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 21:48, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

The only explanation that makes sense is that you need Magnet Release as a KKG. Why else would the other two children be incompatible even though they have the same parents? ItachiWasAHero (talk) 06:05, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

Thanks to those brought up Gaara's compatibility. I actually forgot about that. @Seel, a response would be nice.--Reliops (talk) 20:32, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't have much to say about it. It's really not that hard: All use the same kind of Magnet Release. Their way of using the magnetized chakra may be different, but they're essentially doing the same: magnetize chakra. So if that is the cause for Yondaime's eye rings, it has to be the same for every other user. There are different types of using magnetized chakra, but the basic - giving your chakra a magnetic nature - is the same. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:35, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Pretty much this. No matter the user, there's (most certainly, unless Kishi is on crack) just one Magnet Release nature. Therefore all of them mix the two same natures (whatever they may be). Because of that, if the rings were an effect of molding Magnet chakra, all of them would have them, so the rings themselves alone can't be taken as evidence for Magnet--Elveonora (talk) 21:06, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * On another note: You can't really compare Magnet Release to Lava Release. With Lava Release, you create something new out of two natures. It's only normal that you can decide how the new creation looks and works. That's simply not the case with Magnet Release. You can decide how strong the magnetism is, probably. But you can't make it look green or blue or like rubber. • Seelentau 愛 議 09:46, September 5, 2014 (UTC)

That Jiton users all magnetise their chakra is not in contention. You are, however, assuming their Jiton are identical and their variating uses are optional. That would be very much like assuming Rōshi can use the same syrupy variant of Lava release as Mei if he were so inclined. There is no evidence to support that. The reason I brought up Lava Release is in the first place is to illustrate that nature types have variants their makeup and use, i.e. they can be different, and it would seem that Jiton is no different based on the evidence.

The problem with this statement in particular:
 * So if that is the cause for Yondaime's eye rings, it has to be the same for every other user.

is that it is not only not supported by the manga, but it is also inherently contradictory.
 * Toroi and YK both debuted their Jiton abilities in the same chapter (546).
 * Toroi did not manifest rings around his eyes.
 * YK did manifest rings around his eyes.

By your logic that would mean that one of them isn't a Jiton user, which is simply incorrect. This is why I found your initial analysis disingenuous. You have essentially created a false dichotomy in your assertion that all Jiton users must manifest ringed eyes or they cannot be related. That is simply incorrect.

If X = Y and Z = X, that does not necessarily mean Y = Z.

The fact that YK manifested ringed eyes upon using Jiton identical to that of his son cannot be ignored, it cannot be considered irrelevant when they manifested | precisely when he performed his Jiton jutsu. The only logical conclusion to derived from this is that YK, Shukaku and Gaara all share the same style of Jiton.

Now if we know YK uses Jiton, and we know that Shukaku uses Jiton, then there is no logical basis to believe Gaara isn't using Jiton given the numerous pieces of evidence, ranging from identical fighting styles and jutsu to comments made regarding Gaara's compatibility and Ultimate Defence and ringed eyes that persisted long after Shukaku was extracted.

All I ask is that you dispense with the mental gymnastics and respond in good faith if you are so inclined. I also want you to know I have every intention of appealing to sysops to reconsider Gaara's status as a Jiton user.--Reliops (talk) 00:11, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, then we just create a different type of something that can't have different types, simply because it supports your theory. • Seelentau 愛 議 00:28, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * We are not creating anything. The manga has clearly shown us two different types - with physical manifestations to differentiate the two. Toroi and YK debuted their Jiton in the same chapter, around the same time, using different styles and with YK manifesting ringed eyes. How can you can observe all this and then still argue they are the one and the same? There is no logical explanation or evidence for them being identical. The manga thoroughly contradicts what you are saying.--Reliops (talk) 00:39, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * You're making up different types of something that can't have different types based on the fact that one user shows a special marking and another user doesn't, while the most normal conclusion would be to say that since they both use the same technique (albeit in different ways), the markings have nothing to do with the technique itself. But no, you'd rather have two different Kekkei Genkai which are named exactly the same and work exactly the same. What you're saying is not that [Every Jiton user must have eye markings], but [Everyone with eye markings must use Jiton]. I'm usually very open-minded about the little things in Naruto, but this is getting ridiculous. The Third Kazekage didn't show eye markings around his eyes when using Magnet Release, Toroi didn't show them, Shukaku didn't and Gaara has them all the time, even when he was some minutes old. I'd really like to explain this in a more specific way, but I'm afraid my English isn't good enough for words like dichotomy. So I'll leave it at that and hope for the others to maybe understand what I mean. • Seelentau 愛 議 07:24, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Basically, what every other reader would think is [Oh, they both use Magnet Release (since there's no difference in name), but only one shows the eye rings. That means the eye rings have nothing to do with MR.]
 * What you think is [Eye rings have to do with Magnet Release. One user shows them and the fact that in the same chapter another user didn't show them means that he's using a different type of MR.]
 * You try to prove your point by basing it on the very problem we're having this discussion about. If this was a murder case, you'd use the fact that Person X was murdered to prove that Person Y is the murderer, ignoring all contradicting evidence. • Seelentau 愛 議 07:46, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

You insist I am making things up, and yet the manga supports everything I say. The manga has:
 * shown us KKG can have variating forms and uses (e.g. Lava)
 * stated Toroi and YK are both Jiton users
 * demonstrated Toroi and YK use fundamentally different fighting styles
 * shown us that when YK uses his style of Jiton, | he manifests dark rings around his eyes.

Those four facts alone are more than sufficient to determine that Jiton users do not all use the same style, and it has been made abundantly clear to us by Toroi's and YK's coinciding Jiton debuts in the manga, that Kishimoto has elected to use the manifestation of ringed eyes as a differentiator between the two - a differentiator Gaara shares.

A false dichotomy is a logical fallacy in which two opposing options are presented as the only possible outcomes, of which one must be true and the other must be false. You applied this fallacy to the ringed eyes.

And speaking of ringed eyes, do you know what feature that tanuki are widely known for in Japanese folklore? Oh, that's right, they are known for their dark, ringed eyes. I brought that up because Shukaku is a tanuki, and his eyes are completely darkened, and he is also a Jiton user with the ability to manipulate sand. Those are not mere coincidences, just as it is not a mere coincidence YK's fighting style is identical to that of his son and that he uses the same technique as his son.

The Sandaime Kazekage remains a mystery, given the fact he was turned into a puppet, however given the pattern that has been established and the nature of his Jiton, i.e. Iron Sand and given the fact he based his Iron Sand on Shukaku, it is most likely he, too, manifested rings around his eyes upon using Jiton.

Gaara was born with the ringed eyes, and as long as he has lived he has been under the protection of his Ultimate Defence. For the longest time we believed that to be Shukaku's doing, however, as the YK stated before his sealing, we now have reason to believe it was the result of Karura's will. Regardless of whether it was Karura or Shukaku, however, Gaara has demonstrated both the ringed eyes and Ultimate Defence long after extraction.

Logic and evidence all point towards Gaara being a Jiton user, and while I continue to debate in good faith, I must point out that you have not stated a single counter argument that is corroborated by the manga.--Reliops (talk) 10:04, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Alright, then I'll just explain why your manga points aren't worth what you think they are: As I said before, I know the way they use Jiton is different, but they both use the exact same combination of two natures, giving their chakra a magnetic nature. The only difference is that Toroi infuses Shuriken, while Yoni infuses gold. So if I go to the core of your argumentation, your point would be [The rings around the eyes are the result of infusing gold/iron/normal sand with magnetised chakra], am I right? • Seelentau 愛 議 10:25, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * shown us KKG can have variating forms and uses (e.g. Lava)
 * Indeed. But it remains the same Kekkei Genkai. If the rings come from the Kekkei Genkai, everyone who wields it would have the rings, because even if forms and uses differ, the basics remain the same.
 * stated Toroi and YK are both Jiton users
 * Correct. They both use Jiton in the same chapter without any indication that Toroi's Jiton is different from Yondi's.
 * demonstrated Toroi and YK use fundamentally different fighting styles
 * So your point is that the differens in their styles are the result for the eye markings? They both use magnetised chakra but only those who infuse sand/iron with it gain those eyes?
 * shown us that when YK uses his style of Jiton, | he manifests dark rings around his eyes.
 * See above.

As I have already proven this position is false because it is inherently contradictory. YK, Shukaku and Gaara all use the same Jiton. They all have the ringed eyes. Toroi doesn't use the same style of Jiton, and he doesn't have the ringed eyes. It is still the same KKG. This is disingenuous. I have clearly outlined the differences a number of times now. Toroi's Jiton is based on attraction, Yk's Jiton is based on repulsion. Those are the two basic principles of magnetism.
 * Indeed. But it remains the same Kekkei Genkai. If the rings come from the Kekkei Genkai, everyone who wields it would have the rings, because even if forms and uses differ, the basics remain the same.
 * Correct. They both use Jiton in the same chapter without any indication that Toroi's Jiton is different from Yondi's.

My assertion, as supported by the manga, is that those with Jiton like the YK, whose Jiton are based on repulsion, gain the rings around their eyes. Gaara and Shukaku both have the same style of Jiton and they both have the ringed eyes, which I once again remind you is the defining feature of tanuki in Japanese folklore. I also remind you that you have not backed up anything you have said with facts, so I suggest you either find evidence that corroborates your claims or just concede already.--Reliops (talk) 17:54, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yondi's Jiton isn't based on repulsion. If it would be, how would he be able to utilize sand? The sand would be repulsed from his chakra, thus being unable to be controled.
 * On a side note: I don't claim anything. I have already made my analysis, you're the one with the burden of proof. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:56, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * It demonstrably is though. Magnetic force can either attract or repulse. Toroi's YK uses attraction, that much we are told explicitly in the manga. YK uses repulsion because he is clearly levitating Gold Dust to manipulate it, and gold is a diamagnetic material. Perhaps we are being bogged down by the particulars in regards to paramagnetism and diamagnetism, which is fine. So long as you can acknowledge the fact that 1) YK and Toroi use different style of Jiton, 2) that YK's style of Jiton and ringed eyes are related, and 3) that YK and Shukaku both possess the same Jiton. There is no reason you should disregard the manga on those three facts, and if you can accept that, then it ought to become apparent to you by now that Gaara does in fact possess the same Jiton as his father and bijū.
 * The burden of proof lies with whoever makes an assertion. Your initially analysis concluded a number of things, citing the manga as evidence. That is what claiming is. My rebuttal is that you are wrong and I have backed up my claims with clear evidence from the manga.--Reliops (talk) 20:56, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

You keep on going about how there's proof about Jinton and the eye rings, because Shukaku has eye rings. But 4th Kazekage was never Shukaku's jinchuuriki, that means they are unrelated. Therefore you can't use Shukaku having black eye rings as proof that Gaara uses his father's Jinton, lol--Elveonora (talk) 20:48, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * There is nothing to suggest one has to be Shukaku's jinchūriki to use the same Jiton. Literally nothing at all.--Reliops (talk) 21:09, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * You were the one making such connection. Also there's just one Jinton, merger of x and y natures. You can't compare that to Lava Release. The substances Lava Release may produce are different, but the Yoton chakra is exactly the same in every user. If the eye rings were an effect of Jinton chakra, all Jinton users would have them. That means there's no direct connection between the rings and Jinton, for all we know, 4th Kazekage's rings may be something like Tsunade's seal--Elveonora (talk) 21:13, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * I made the connection between YK, Shukaku and Gaara's Jiton. At no point did I claim anyone had to be Shukaku's jinchūriki to have the same Jiton. I've also never stated that there is more than one magnet KKG, only that there are varying styles and uses, like Lava Release, of which all the variating results are still called Lava Release. You are using the same faulty logic Seelentau used, which I have already thoroughly debunked. The direct connection is | outright demonstrated in the manga. There is no way around that fact.--Reliops (talk) 21:37, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * You haven't actually debunked anything. You repeat what you were saying at the beginning of this discussion, ignoring what I'm saying and constantly talking about how wrong I am or so. It's no fun talking about this matter, simply because you can't even begin to assume that you're wrong. Do you know the chess and pigeon-metaphor? It's like that.
 * To actually contribute to this, though: If Yondi lets the gold dust float through repulsion, then what keeps the gold dust together in the first place? If the chakra inside the gold dust is repulsive, it's impossible to attain any kind of form, because the dust would simply be blown away by the repulsion. • Seelentau 愛 議 22:08, September 6, 2014 (UTC)


 * I very much dispute that I haven't already debunked your theory. Your analysis was rife with logical fallacies. At every turn I have asked you to argue in good faith and present evidence, i.e. if you are not able to back up your claims with evidence, then just admit you're wrong. Instead you have replied, time and again, with the same flat denial that has no basis in fact. If it's no fun to you to discuss this further, then perhaps you should concede given how you have put no effort in your replies and have thus far only pointless drawn out this debate. I've already established all my assertions have basis in fact, i.e. are supported by the manga.
 * You're misunderstanding the concept of magnetic repulsion. In the context of this discussion basically boils down to levitation, which is what YK, Gaara and Shukaku all do, they levitate Gold Dust/sand, whereas Toroi's Jiton is reliant on the power of attraction.--Reliops (talk) 22:50, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * I never put much effort in my replies. It's just not my style. I know my stuff and I don't need to hide behind big words, so yeah... if you expected some pages long discussions, I'm sorry to disappoint you.
 * Okay, so this is Magnet Release, too? Because, you know, it's water chakra that flies and according to you, chakra can't fly or float without repulsion. • Seelentau 愛 議 23:03, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't even use big enough words for that jab to make much sense, so you can stop projecting your insecurities now. Clearly you don't know your stuff if you're resorting to such an preposterous straw man, which is as much of admission of defeat I'm going to get from you. If you were done debating the topic, you should have said so instead of during this into a broken record contest.--Reliops (talk) 23:16, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not turning this into anything. Your point was that the chakra-infused sand floats because of Magnet Release and not because chakra can float on its own. And well, that's just plain wrong. No straw grasping here, just proving you wrong. Oh and just in case you think this discussion is relevant for the wiki: It isn't. Neither is my analysis, Fox could've just said "No" to it and that would've been it. But they decided to remove Gaara even without reading my analysis, so this won't change anything about that anyways. • Seelentau 愛 議 23:23, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

You misinterpreted what I wrote. To start: we both agree that it is obvious Yoroi and YK magnetise their chakra. The manga has outright stated that Toroi uses attraction. YK's Jiton does not resemble Toroi's however and matches the description of opposite principle, that is to say he levitates his Gold Dust by repulsion.

Even if, for the sake of argument, we completely ignore these basic principles of magnetism, we would still have evidence of different styles of Jiton, differentiated by rings manifesting around the eyes.

Ultimate, for whatever reason, went by your word, despite not wanting to do reverts. I took the time to read your analysis when you pointed it out to me in the other thread and broke it down because it made no sense. Now that I've proven that, there is no reason Gaara cannot be re-listed. I'm done for now though, I'll just wait Ultimate to make a decision.--Reliops (talk) 23:56, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * "that is to say he levitates his Gold Dust by repulsion" - This is not only speculation, it's also wrong. Chakra can float on its own.
 * "we would still have evidence of different styles of Jiton, differentiated by rings manifesting around the eyes." - Are you serious? This is a discussion about if the markings are related to Jiton or not and you act as if they are and use it as evidence? This is exactly why I don't want to discuss this any further.
 * "Ultimate, for whatever reason, went by your word" - Yeah, the reason is probably that I know my stuff and that he trusts me. Or whatever, I don't care. • Seelentau 愛 議 00:17, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Incorrect. I find your entire analysis as absolute bullshit and screams of someone trying really really hard to just ignore the mangs for reasons I will never understand. I went along with it because I am tired as all hell of these discussions.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 02:40, September 7, 2014 (UTC)

Good to see you weigh in, Ultimate. I don't know why I kept trying to convince him, I had actually run out patience with that last post. The crux of the argument, that being the ringed eyes and their relationship to Jiton, simply isn't deniable. There is a mountain of evidence that just doesn't gel with Seel's analysis, and he has resorted to straw men replies to ignore the overwhelming evidence that not only proves his analysis to be inherently flawed and contradictory, but also proves Gaara has Jiton. If it's okay with you, I'd like to re-open the discussion on the relevant talk pages or just re-list Gaara.--Reliops (talk) 04:42, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is deniable. Gaara's ringed eyes were stated to be because of insomnia, manga fact. Also 4th Kazekage's appear only when he uses Jinton, Gaara has had them since birth and I doubt Gaara was molding Jinton chakra already in Karura's vagina and ever since. The only mountain you have is pile of shit to be honest and what you call evidence is just wishful thinking on your part and a failed attempt to sew vague connections with little relevance to each other into a whole. You see things that aren't there simply because you want to.
 * Also simple rebuttal to your absolute fallacy: the 3rd Kazekage tried to copy the Shukaku jinchuuriki's sand manipulation. If Magnet Release were moving the sand (which the 3rd Kazekage had) he wouldn't have had to try copy anything and just move the fucking sand himself instead of resorting to iron powder. Good day sir--Elveonora (talk) 08:44, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * This is getting really funny. Reliops, you use the argument "The sand can float because of the magnetic chakra" and when I use the counter-argument "Chakra can float without being magnetic", it's grasping for straws? And you didn't even answer to my other point, about you using the exact matter we're discussing as proof for your argument. That's exactly what I meant when I talked about playing chess with a pigeon: It doesn't matter what I say and how logical it is, you'll still shit on my arguments and act as if you'd won. You didn't begin this discussion for the sake of finding a common denominator. You began it with the mindset that no matter what I say, you'd be right. It's absolutely pointless to discuss things with people like you. But you won't understand that.

I'm really sorry that this discussion turned into something personal, but it seems that 99% of the users here aren't even able to discuss on a normal basis. There are personal things thrown around in every fucking discussion, people are called biased, ignorant and outright dumb simply because they don't believe what others believe. You're all acting as if Naruto was some sort of a religion and I'm more than tired of it. Don't dare to ask me any shit until the manga has ended. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:04, September 7, 2014 (UTC)

@Elve - Ultimate already shot down your insomnia bit, and even if he hadn't, the fact Gaara had them from birth already debunks that, unless you're going to argue he had insomnia as a baby. Gaara had Ultimate Defence his entire life, either through Shukaku or his mother, so his Jiton would have been active that entire time. The Sandaime Kazekage did base his Jiton on Shukaku's. The rest is your usual nonsense, but you kept it short, good on you.

@Seel - I did not say chakra cannot float without being magnetic. If you recall correctly, we both agreed that Toroi and YK magnetise their chakra. The manga explicitly told us what Toroi did with his magnetised chakra: attraction. I asserted that YK magnetised his chakra through the opposite, by repulsion, to levitate his Gold Dust. Since you didn't seem to grasp the basics of magnetism, I said fine, let's ignore the actual science and connect the dots.


 * Toroi and YK both have Jiton.
 * Toroi has normal eyes, YK has ringed eyes.
 * Toroi uses Jiton through the power of attraction.
 * YK uses Jiton through means not explicitly stated.
 * Shukaku also has Jiton and ringed eyes, and the nature of his Jiton is also unstated.
 * By the ringed eyes alone, we can assume YK and Shukaku use the same Jiton.
 * Gaara is YK's son and Shukaku's former jinchūriki, he also has ringed eyes and fights exactly the same as his father, even using the same jutsu.
 * Logic dictates that YK, Shukaku and Gaara all possess the same variant of Jiton.

Now at this point, you have failed to support up even one of your points with the manga, Seelentau. You've gone through some of the most impressive mental gymnastics I've ever seen, I'll give you that, but nothing dismisses the evidence. Your analysis was completely off base and supported by no evidence, only your fallacious logic, and the sad part is it held this entire wiki back.

You're done with this argument, and so am I.--Reliops (talk) 19:24, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Toroi does not "use Jiton through the power of attraction". He uses Jiton through his Kekkei Genkai, combining two unknown natures. So does the Kazekage.
 * Both use chakra flow to let their magnetic chakra flow into objects. Toroi uses Shuriken, Yondi uses gold sand.
 * Both use the attracting nature of magnetism to attract something to their chakra: Toroi attracts more shuriken, Yondi attracts more sand.
 * Since both use the exact same Kekkei Genkai and only differ in the objects they use to manipulate, there can't be a relation between the Kekkei Genkai and the ringed eyes.
 * That's all I need to debunk your theory. The stuff about Shukaku and Gaara isn't necessary for this discussion, it comes afterwards. You're making up some "power of attraction" and "power of repulsion", even though the manga doesn't mention anything like that. There is no difference in the Jiton Toroi and Yondi are using. Therefore, there is no relation between the eye rings and the Kekkei Genkai and therefore we can't say that Gaara has Magnet Release. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:48, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Just to add what Seel says, @Reliops, read the last part of my above comment again. I know 3rd Kazekage copied Shukaku's jinchuuriki. My point was that if it were Magnet Release moving the sand in cases of Shukaku and Gaara, then 3rd Kazekage would have been moving sand himself rather than resorting to iron sand. Hint: iron sand can be magnetized, ordinary sand isn't magnetic, thus Shukaku and Gaara don't move sand using Magnet Release.

I think this whole fiasco can be summed up as following, according to you:
 * there's Jinton
 * then there's a variant of Jinton that happens to control sand exclusively and gives its user black rings around eyes

Think about it for a moment to realize how ridiculous of an assertion it truly is.--Elveonora (talk) 20:17, September 7, 2014 (UTC)

@Elveo, gold isn't magnetic either. Yet Gaara's father manipulates gold with magnetism and black rings form around his eyes, which is where this debate started. -- WindStar7125   20:51, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Gold is diamagnetic. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:52, September 7, 2014 (UTC)

pure land
Are we sure then that there's no consciousness or were Naruto and Minato just sentimental?--Elveonora (talk) 12:47, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hagoromo also spoke about asking Obito about everything in the afterlife as well. So its obviously not just Naruto and Minato. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 15:23, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then why do those revived with edo tensei don't remember being dead?--Elveonora (talk) 15:25, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * They clearly do. Minato and the other Kage remembered dying and just because they don't say anything about time spent while dead doesn't mean they don't remember anything. Obviously Minato is confident that he'll remember what Naruto told him, since he stated he's going to tell Kushina everything about it, and the dead have to have memory and consciousness while dead, or Hagoromo couldn't ask Obito about Naruto like he said he was going to. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 19:20, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except they clearly don't. Both Haku and Zabuza wondered if the place they had been revived to was the afterlife, that's one too many. Also in real life too when someone dies, people are like: "they are now in a better place and are watching us from above, we will all reunite one day in heaven, so don't be sad yada yada" it's simply to make themselves feel better about the situation... a simple belief.

Not to mention Madara and Hashirama have had no recollection of having encountered each other in the afterlife, is that enough proof for you Foxie?--Elveonora (talk) 20:16, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Nope. Not even close. Especially because you take Zabuza's quote way out of context. He says the following:
 * "I should've been sent to Hell after that time on the bridge... but next thing I knew, I was standing next to Haku and I thought something was off." — This right here is referring to the chapter in which he died. He tells Kakashi then that he wishes to go to where Haku is going.
 * Then he continues to say, "But this is neither Heaven nor Hell." That is a BIG difference from what you've been spouting to everyone. He's going from two different tenses. Remembering his words to Kakashi and recalling where he actually went after death, which he thought was weird because, as he said in both that chapter, and the chapter of his death, he thought he should've gone to hell. Then he goes on to acknowledge that he knows he's not in Heaven or Hell, to which Kakashi replies, "This is the real world and neither of you belong in it."
 * If you're going to use Zabuza as an example, Elve, you have to use the context of what he said and stop trying to make your own out of it. If even this doesn't convince you, ask Seel to translate the raw for that chapter, and you can see it for yourself. Also, I hardly think the fact that Hashirama and Madara didn't meet in the Pure World is hilarious evidence on your part. Since it neither happened, nor do you know what happened to their souls after death, you can't use it as evidence: because it simply isn't. Its speculation. Furthermore, they died as enemies, not friends. All cases of spirits meeting in the pure world have been allies or family members. So don't even try to use them. They're not going to help you. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 07:24, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * (Btw, sorry for muddling your talk page up like this Seel. I just don't think we should exclude information that was given to us in the manga because one user feels something is wrong, despite there existing no evidence against it.) ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 07:32, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Naruto to End at Chapter 700?
Hello, Seelentau-senpai! How are you? I have become aware that there are currently rumors that it was announced that Naruto will end at chapter 700. They say that it was announced in this link: http://www.shonenjump.com/e/weeklyshonenjump/_image/nextImg.jpg. As our star translator, can you please tell me if there is any truth to this rumor?

Personally, I'm hoping that is all this is- a rumor. I think there is just way too much to be covered in the story that nine chapters is not enough to accomplish it all. Kishi will try to cram so much within nine chapters and probably end up making horrible mistakes. Thanks for your help! --KirinNOTKarin98 (talk) 20:06, September 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. I hope you are right. Where did this rumor come from? Also, how many chapters do you think should remain until the series ends?--KirinNOTKarin98 (talk) 02:35, September 6, 2014 (UTC)