Talk:Shamon

Deletion
He looks the same as the statue. ~SnapperTo 07:18, September 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * I get that he looks like Nidaime Kazekage and all but we don't know for sure. He even has the tuft of hair. The only thing we have to base it off is that the Second Hokage, Raikage and Tsuchikage are there. But there's a simple reason we can't add him: Orochimaru's lookalike (so cool btw) is not the Second Mizukage, Captain Awesome is.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 07:19, September 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * Looks like a duck and quacks like a duck. At worst: keep the page, ditch the image. ~SnapperTo 07:23, September 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Switch the image, trivia his appearance at Summit. I just think we err on the side of caution no matter how obvious it may be here. We'd have to say the Second Mizukage was absent, why him of all people? Although Kiri has a shady past, it invites too much speculation. --Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 07:25, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

I think it's highly likely that he is the second Kazekage considering the context of the conversation was about the future role of the kage in uniting/cooperating with all shinobi and the fact that the 2nd hokage,2nd raikage and 2nd tsuchikage are shown during the same conversation enforces the idea of him being the next kazekage aswell that he looks similar to the 2nd kazekage statue. I believe that the 1st mizukage's "bodygaurd" is the 3rd mizukage but i understand people being unsure about him considering there's been no details given prior to his first appearance in this chapter.

~Bio havik~

firstly why would there even be a third mizukage there??? secondly that is definitely the second kazekage. Common sense... his head, eye and hair shape are all eexactly the same AND he was chosen to accompany the first kazekage.. we all know this is clearly only the second kage candidates here with the first kages. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 08:38, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

Take a look at the statue of the Second Kazekage, they are similiar. They are both bald, same eye shape. Side note, that Orochimaru lookalike is prob the 2nd mizuage, why would Maasashi be that random to add the 2nd hokage,tsuchikage and raikage and not the 2nd kaze and mizu kate? (Sasori35 (talk) 10:01, September 25, 2013 (UTC))


 * Looking at this picture, from an entirely literary standpoint, that must be the Second Kazekage. Looking around the room we see the confirmed Second Hokage, Raikage and Tsuchikage. Considering we know what the Second Kazekage looks like it would be completely illogical of Kishimoto to create a new guy that looks exactly like the statue.
 * The Mizukage looks nothing like the Second Mizukage or anyone from to Hōzuki clan, so that one is more iffy. But I'm leaning Third Mizukage because (again from a literary standpoint) we have one generation of Mizukage missing and we've seen the Second.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 10:19, September 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Basically what I'm getting at is everyone attending the First Five Kage Summit would at one point in their lives be a Kage coming from a literary standpoint.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 10:20, September 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't say it is 2nd Mizukage, but rather 2nd Mizukage Candidate. The Orochimaru-lookalike (as you are calling him) may have been the candidate for the role of Second Mizukage (and in my opinion he may even be one of, or even first of, the Seven Swordsmen, but that's only my own speculation, and wish), but he should have died prior to First's death, and thus the member of Hozuki clan was selected to become the Second. We have no idea about the lives of Kages at this time, it were grim times, and Kiri was even more grim than others. This guy may simply die before his ascension to the rank. --VolteMetalic (talk) 10:23, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

Why is the page up for deletion? Is it too short? The picture is obviously the Second Kazekage, look at his statue - they both have the distinctive bald head with square chin. In the chapter, the ones with Shodai Kages are candidates. Pesa123456789 (talk) 11:05, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you Pesa; he has the distinct bald head and his nose is the same, with the square chin as well. I do not believe this article should be deleted at all. --Senjuto (talk) 12:13, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

I for one think we need to keep it. It's too close of a resemblance not the be the Second Kazekage. Zelwolf (talk) 12:31, September 25, 2013 (UTC)Zelwolf

Why is this even argued? The likelihood of us being wrong is no more than 5% and we have dozen much more speculative articles and information present on the wiki--Elveonora (talk) 14:17, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Elve on this one. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 14:39, September 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * Except for the Second, which I explained from a literary standpoint. But whatever, so long as Mr. Tatoo and Kirimaru don't get articles.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:44, September 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * What? Think you misunderstood what I was agreeing with. Or maybe I was mistaken about Elve's stance. But whatever. We're more likely to be right that tattoo head is the second kazekage than not. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 14:51, September 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Given Elve's usual movements, because us being wrong about the Kazekage is more than 5%, we are not to consider it and Mr. Tattoo and the Second are to be considered two different people until proven otherwise. I was saying, that is fine so long as Mr. Tattoo and Kirimaru don't get articles because articles of two nameless nobodies standing in the background is useless.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:54, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

This is ridiculous, he is clearly the Second Kazekage. Who else who he be some random ninja?? I don't even understand the dicussion behind this.--Marc Zaddy (talk) 15:15, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

I have to agree that it is the Nidaime Kazkeage. The resemblance is too similar to be a coincidence. The same could more loosely be said about Nidaime Mizukage, of whose style of dress is similar but the head and facial hair. In literary terms and logically, if most are the Nidaime of their respective villages, then it would stand to reason they all are. Especially when the likeness is almost uncanny for #4 out of 5, with #5 being possible different style in dress (though not eliminating the possibility it is someone else).--Taynio (talk) 15:21, September 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * Nobody is disputing the fact that it is him. Unless we're blind we wouldn't see it's him with a tatoo; he even had the hair at the back of his head. However based off how this wiki runs, we are 1. assuming that they were all Candidates? How the hell did you all go so far? No, they were the right hand men of their Kage which eventually succeeded the post. 2. if he is the Second Tsuchikage, the that makes Kirimaru (well done sirs) the Second Mizukage. Based off that alone I think it's best we at least attempt to follow some precedent and don't just go about throwing people into positions.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk)


 * Except that it's not just throwing someone into the position based on everything else preceding it. If 3 out of 5 are previously known Nidaime Kage, the 4th literally identical sans tattoo (and the hair), then it would stand to reason 5 is a Nidaime. That not only makes perfect literary sense but logical. The 5th's style of dress is also very similar. The only, unfortunate, difference is the head and facial hair. And that's where I say it doesn't explicitly have to be Nidaime Mizukage, but following everything else, it stands to reason it is. I think it's too obvious to try and throw a wrench in it. It's not like anyone (Kish) is trying to pull wool over our eyes. I think at this point most people know how the wiki runs, but the fact of how Kish did it kind of screams and points towards all of them being a kage at some point. Otherwise, there wouldn't had been a reason to include such detail or even show the faces, or even include 3 out of 5 already known kage. If the higher ups decide to do it whichever way, that's fine because they have control. And they wouldn't be wrong in the decision to wait until absolute written confirmation by Kish. I, too, even feel the same. But I can't overlook the story, either. --Taynio (talk) 16:00, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

I have no doubt that this is the Nidaime Kazekage but if it's too speculative for the wiki then perhaps the best solution is to keep the page use the statue pic in the infobox and use the picture from the latest chapter in the trivia like was done for those abducted by Hiruko such as Pakura. The Oro look alike may well be Oro's father and be the only exception to the rule of Second Kage at the meeting, we know his parents died after all. It could be they were defectors, Kiri and Konoha have had some strained relations in the past. That's just my speculation, sorry :D Arrancar79 (talk) 16:38, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

The manga is soon coming to an end. The only Kage we are yet to see is the 3rd Mizukage, so the likelihood of the Oro-like guy not being him and the manga ending without the guy even being shown is low. We can still put up a template. Same with 2nd Kazekage. Also maybe I miss something, but how are we sure 2nd Kazekage is dead? Unless it was stated somewhere.--Elveonora (talk) 18:27, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

'Cause he had a succesor. Kages' reign are not over 'til they die. Hiruzen's case was exceptional. Also it's not the point. The fact is that all those people behind the first kages were no other but the second generation of kages, except for the Oro-like guy. Maybe the second mizukage was ill and couldnot attend the summit. Who knows? The Second Kazekage exactly resembles the one of the statue.--Rikudo Sennin 47 (talk) 18:39, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

The supporters are clearly the second Kage candidates hence why "Kirimaru" is there.. he was obviously the first's original choice for being second Mizukage then something happened and he was not chosen. They are all the right hand men of their Kage no discussion needed there. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 19:21, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

Well if you really think that associating the bald man with Second Kazekage, but than what about being fair? Where is it explicitly said that the Tsuchikage's adjutant is Muu? Why it cant be just another mummy ninja who happens to look the same as the future Second Tsuchikage? Just applying your rules. The Second Raikage and Hokage are certain, because they look the same (Tobirama is even more clear with his personality), but Muu, or mummy ninja, dont looks the same as we know him (he dont has that headband like later, and also wears kimono which he later havent worn in manga). Its the same instance as with bald man/Second Kazekage. --VolteMetalic (talk) 20:01, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

I think that the looks alone is enough to say that the guy with the dragon tattoo is the Second Kazekage, the fact we other second generation Kage there only reinforces that. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:39, September 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Good point but as what Cerez said we can't be sure as of yet -- Root 根  16:33, September 26, 2013 (UTC)

Databook Info
I'm translating his databook page [74], as well as the rest of the suna crew, and came across these things:

'''二代目風影に就任した沙門は、さらなる軍拡への道を歩み出した. . . ！！沙門の軍拡政治により砂隠れの里の軍事力は画期的な発展を遂げる. Shamon, who was appointed second Kazekage, embarked on the road to further military expansion...! ! Due to military expansion of Shamon's government, the hidden sand village's military strength achieved ground breaking advancement.'''

Generally, the page suggests that he was very influential to the further development of the sand village.

'''さらに忍の代わりとなる傀儡忍術や地の利を活かした忍術の開発など、少数の忍で複数の相手と戦える忍術を編み出す. Furthermore, he made use of puppet ninjutsu, to become a replacement for shinobi, the geographical advantage and the development of ninjutsu, ectetera, and worked out a ninjutsu that fights using few shinobi with multiple partners.'''

My Japanese for that one might not be perfect, but I double checked the meaning of the important part, 傀儡忍術や地の利を活かした, or 'made use of puppet ninjutsu and...'. Obviously, he has to be a user.

His profile also says that his date of death is unknown and that his personality is 'one who desires improvement'.

If anyone wants to double check this and add anything relevant to the page, I'd appreciate it. --EmotionalRockfish (talk) 09:18, November 12, 2014 (UTC)