Talk:Madara Uchiha

SPECULATION WILL BE REMOVED

Edo Tensai User
In the newest chapter (591) it is revealed that Madara can use the edo tensai jutsu. It should be added under his jutsu arsenal since he used the seals to break his contract with Kabuto and avoid going back to the pure world.--Elven Windsword (talk) 20:27, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

He only knows how to undo the contract seal--Elveonora (talk) 22:32, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

True but by knowing the aspects of the undoing the contract seal, isn't he knowledgeable of the jutsu? Plus he has stated the weaknesses of the jutsu, so aren't these pieces of evidence that Madara knows the jutsu?--Elven Windsword (talk) 22:51, June 27, 2012 (UTC)

Not enough, if he tells us that he can do an Edo or even summon one, then yeah.--Elveonora (talk) 00:11, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

Not technically dead anymore?
We don't know anything, of course. because nothing is absolute. But if Madara effectively broke out of Kabuto's control and released the seal on his edo tensei, [although this doesn't make him alive] it doesn't make him deceased either. So should we really be saying "Madara was -"? I mean if he's currently well and good and causing a shitstorm for all the Kage, with no plausible way to stop him at the moment.. he's somewhere in between life and death. We should change his status to "deceased (reincarnated)" --M4ND0N (talk) 06:43, June 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * Its a dropdown list and technically he is deceased. — ¤ U LTIMATE S UPREME ¤ (T@lk) 07:01, June 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * He's still dead though, it's no different from any other reincarnated shinobi we've seen, he just can't be controlled. His soul is just being bound to the living world in a false body of dust. Besides, Edo Tensei will eventually be released for him too in all likely hood, or otherwise something else will happen to end his temporary "living" status.--BeyondRed (talk) 08:49, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

Edo Tensei was released for him and he defused it. He broke that link when it was effecting him and now he won't disappear like that. The Fox king(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 11:53, June 28, 2012 (UTC))


 * The Impure World Reincarnation was released and his soul was about to leave the body, he broke the seal that binded him to that Summoner and kept the soul in the body. He's still a moving corpse, he's just no longer bound to the Summoner so he's able to "live" until he is sealed or the soul is forcibly removed.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:25, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

@TheUltimae3 That what I mean't to say, but didn't do a very good job of it. Made it too short. Thanks for your straighter impute. The Fox king(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 12:45, June 28, 2012 (UTC))

So I guess he is alive now ... it doesn't matter his body is a sacrifice and dust ... his soul has to be forcibly removed thus someone has to seal him--Elveonora (talk) 12:59, June 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * If you want to consider a moving corpse to be alive, then so be it. But that doesn't change the fact that he is in fact dead.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:11, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

You guys have a really weird definitions of being alive/dead ... his memories/mind/soul whatnot are intact and he has his "life" in his own hands now ... because if "being alive" is for you only the physical part, then Orochimaru is more dead than Madara now is since he has no physical form in a physical world ... living corpse = undead, undead = not dead--Elveonora (talk) 13:51, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

I personally argue hes now more alive then ever immortal limitless chakra and free of all bindings, perhaps undead if anything but deceased would imply that he is just some corpse being controlled (which was the case until the seal was undone) for status we have sealed but i think madara is a special case on this site thus i purpose we make a new status lable called "undead" referring to a character who is effectively unkillable or bound by normal means.


 * Except we don't need the classification. He's dead. He was revived by a technique that could revive the dead, but that doesn't change his fate. He's dead. He is still very much dead.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 02:17, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

@Elveonora Also Madara was not being controlled before Kabuto was forced to release the Edo Tensei. He was acting freely of will. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 03:43, June 29, 2012 (UTC))

@Ultimate, no ... he isn't dead. He has reincarnated ... by your logic, we should also list Gaara or Kakashi as deceased as they have died.--Elveonora (talk) 08:23, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

@Elveonora They are not the same as Madara. They were revived in their original bodies while Madara's soul was just summoned and put in a whole new body. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 11:50, June 29, 2012 (UTC))

So? ... as I said, physical part doesn't make one alive as long as the mind and soul are intact. And Oro's body was made from small white snakes and Zetsu was a flower ... were they not alive? He isn't even under control of Edo Tensei anymore ... he is just in a sacrificed body enveloped in magical dust or what shit. I think we should put his status as "reincarnated"--Elveonora (talk) 12:37, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

@Elveonora Again, even before the Edo Tensei was released, Madara was not being controlled. Kabuto was allowing him free roam to do whatever he wanted to do. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 12:53, June 29, 2012 (UTC))

@foxie, he could always put him under control or release him ... now Madara isn't controlled anymore--Elveonora (talk) 13:28, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

DEAD MAN, Madara broke the contract seal but he still an Edo, please he is not reincarnated, he still dead! --MaskedManMadara (talk) 14:16, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

No, he isn't ... the technique is called Impure World Reincarnation/Resurrection or what shit, he is no longer under any control. Also being dead = being not existant--Elveonora (talk) 14:24, June 29, 2012 (UTC)

@Elveonora Doubtful since he doesn't know Madara's powers and therefore wouldn't know his capabilities. Madara was acting out of his own free will. He was never controlled. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 14:41, June 29, 2012 (UTC))

This is exactly why I suggested putting his status as deceased (reincarnated). That way we get a compromise.. Obviously he's a walking corpse. We can't deny that.. he's not truly alive until Tobi revives him with his Rinnegan, which is something I find likely to happen, since that's one of the only plausible ways Madara can be killed now.. I disgress. At least this way Madara can be listed as deceased, but set apart from the other dead characters until he's killed once again. --M4ND0N (talk) 05:52, June 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * That's just it though, his status is no different from anyone else who was revived. The only difference now is that he isn't linked to his summoner. He is as dead and "alive" as he was 3 chapters ago, except now he isn't bound. That's why even the compromise doesn't work.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:39, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

That settles it?
Whatever Madara did changed his appearance. He doesn't have cracks in his skin anymore, so it looks like he's no longer a normal Edo. Can we finally skip this nonsense and list Madara as reincarnated? Because he's certainly not dead anymore, and I think, since he's going to be a main antagonist, it would be a lot less misleading if we didn't imply that he's still dead. --M4ND0N (talk) 14:21, July 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * He is still a soul attached to someone else's corpse. That did not change, he's still dead.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:33, July 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * The Second Mizukage and a lot of "revived" shinobi don't have cracks on their face and it no made them alive, am I wrong? --MaskedManMadara (talk) 16:31, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

Confusing ... so a dead person is thinking, moving, talking and has plans to take over the world? 0_o good one ... why the hell can't we just put his status as "reincarnated" ????--Elveonora (talk) 15:02, July 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * Because I keep stressing the point that it is a pointless addition. Any revived Shinobi should have then, been considered "reincarnated" but we didn't do that because we understood they were all dead and brought back through a jutsu. Then Kishiomoto decided he was gonna make Madara Uchiha more broken and say "Lawl I break out of the contract lulz!" and now here we are having a discussion about should a dead man still be considered a dead man.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 15:08, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

He isn't a dead man, he is a man that has died but it's still around ;D Listing him as alive wouldn't make any sense, but as dead does neither. I think Madara is a unique case and we should list him as reincarnated ... he meets the most important definitions of being alive ... Edos are temporary "revived" people, but since he isn't under any control anymore, his status is "immortal/reincarnated unless sealed" or something. If Madara was a ghost, that would count as deceased ... he has both mind and form, thus not dead--Elveonora (talk) 15:18, July 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * He is no less dead than any of the other revived ninja, just that his connection with his summoner has been severed. That's all that's changed. Being connected to the summoner or not doesn't change the fact that he is still deader than disco.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 15:25, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

@Elveonora TheUltimate3 is right. All Madara is is a permanent Edo Tensei. Hes severed the link between himself and Kabuto to escape disappearing along with the other dead shinobi and then released Edo Tensei's summoning contract so that Kabuto can never be able to re-establish control over him again and so that he keeps all the benefits of Edo Tensei and none of the weaknesses. Hes still not alive until he or Tobi revives him with the Rinnegan. P.S. Madara was never being controlled. Hes had free roam all this time. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 15:36, July 4, 2012 (UTC))

Well ... I guess we just have a different definitions and opinions ... but whatever, it just sounds weird that "a deceased person is fighting the Kage" sounds like a zombie or something--Elveonora (talk) 15:44, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

Madara was always a special case, ever since his revival. Kabuto specified that his edo tensei is special, so he was never the same as the other revived shinobi. What truly sets him apart is the fact that ending the technique couldn't get rid of him.. and with free control and a physical form, with absolutely no way to currently kill him.. we need to observe what Kishimoto is trying to do with Madara. He's basically made it abundantly clear that Madara isn't going anywhere, anytime soon, and he's going to play an important role in the series from here on out. When Kakashi was killed in Pain's invasion, we listed him as deceased. But after he was revived, we reverted it. And what we're suggesting isn't the same thing, because we're not asking to have him listed as a living human. The entire point of this debate is to assert that Madara is more than a deceased ninja, as the front page seems to suggest. Madara may have died previously, but right now we don't know what he is, exactly. Obviously he has the same effects as the other Edos, but he's free of being controlled, and being sent back to the afterlife. By all means, Madara is neither alive or dead.. that's what I think we can all agree on. Just because someone previously died, doesn't mean squat when you're faced with such an inconsistent plot element like the edo tensei. I should add that just because the admins decided that the edo characters would be listed as "deceased" doesn't make it a right decision, either.. any of them could have easily been listed as reincarnated and it would make sense. If a person is physically walking the world among the living, then saying "Madara "was" a great ninja." Isn't exactly logical, since he's currently acting in the current story as a pseudo-living being. So for Madara, I really can't stress this enough.. We need to treat him with special circumstances, just like Kishimoto has. We can't put him in the same category as the other edos because he simply isn't like them.. he was never like them. I know I'm repeating myself, but listing someone as deceased when they're neither living or dead is definitely misleading. And I'm not even asking to change his status from deceased, that's not what I'm fighting for, here. I'm just suggesting adding a secondary status in brackets beside his status as deceased, so it would read something like this. "deceased (reincarnated)" It's a fair compromise. It lets us list him as dead, while giving him secondary status as a pseudo-living being.. aka, as I said earlier, neither alive or dead. --M4ND0N (talk) 17:31, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

@M4ND0N I'm not disagreeing with most of you just said, but I still don't think his status needs that change as reading the article should already make that obvious. The only thing I disagree with is him being controlled. Hes never been under Kabuto's control. Kabuto was letting him do whatever he wanted so long as Madara was fighting against Akasuki's enemies. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 20:12, July 4, 2012 (UTC))

What we mean by controlled is that he can't be unsummoned anymore (if such words exists 0_o)--Elveonora (talk) 22:24, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

OK. Never can tell unless its pointed out. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 22:54, July 4, 2012 (UTC))

It's not just about changing his status, it's about acknowledging his impact as a major villain. You just can't do that while you imply that he's deceased, or on the same scale as the other revived shinobi. But like I said earlier, the only way Madara is going to be stopped is if he's physically revived with the Rinnegan, taking away his body's invincibility.. If that happens, then we can just list him as alive and deceased again if the time comes, but as of right now he's certainly not dead in the traditional sense. Obviously this is a debate that can only be solved through a vote, and it seems like me and Elveonora are the only people who think Madara deserves a more specific status.. so I really have nothing else to say, if this is what the majority of us want. --M4ND0N (talk) 19:24, July 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * Thats another thing. He's not a major villain. He has so far appeared in 1 arc, before this arc, Madara was in a coffin collecting dust while Tobi with his name, ran around causing all kinds of hell. Madara is important, don't get me wrong, but he is not a "major villain" in any sense of the word. You have to look at it objectively, Madara Uchiha has only appeared in this one arc and it was only in this one arc, similar to any of the random revived shinobi.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 19:51, July 6, 2012 (UTC)

The thing is, any action he does can't be taken seriously if you look at him with "deceased" in mind, simply because it sounds like if a zombie was doing it, while it's Madara Uchiha himself and all. Again, what defines him as "deceased" in your opinion? You disagree with "reincarnated" because Edo Tensei is just temporary and it's not his true body and all that shit, but the infobox basically says that a dead person has some impact on the plot ... this is true in the case of Sage of the Six paths for example, we have learned more of him and made an appearance in a flashback long after his dead ... while Madara Uchiha HIMSELF is present so he can't be dead ...--Elveonora (talk) 21:34, July 6, 2012 (UTC)

Oh God, it still in discussion!? --MaskedManMadara (talk) 22:15, July 6, 2012 (UTC)


 * I disagree with "Reincarnated" because we didn't do the same with everyone else, because we acted with intelligence then and knew they were all dead. Madara Uchiha is still dead. He is not alive. Nothing about him is alive. Nothing about any of the revived shinobi is alive. They are all dead. What you believe to be alive or dead is irrelevant, because they are all dead. Their fate has not been changed. They are souls attached to corpses. They aren't even really reincarnated because reincarnation requires a soul to be "refunded" into a new body. These are just souls attached corpse covered in grave dirt. If Onoki was to blast Madara's head off now, it would grow back in the same grave dirt method he has been doing the entire fight. Madara is dead.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 23:33, July 6, 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree with your words. --MaskedManMadara (talk) 16:36, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

What about an "undead" status ?--Elveonora (talk) 23:58, July 6, 2012 (UTC)

NO!! He and everyone "revived" by Edo Tensei are DEAD! and no udead, reicarnated or living corpse, Madara broke the contract seal but this no made him alive, stop this everyone, Madara is a dead man, DEAD. --MaskedManMadara (talk) 16:31, July 7, 2012 (UTC)

I second MaskedMan's comment.. Is this really still a problem? Elvenora, while I agreed with you that Madara is major enough to warrant a little more recognition that simply being listed as deceased, without a tag telling the reader that he's active in the story, "undead" just doesn't work.. because despite all the times I agreed with you, I'm gonna have to put my foot down, here.. Madara IS technically dead, and the only way that can be undone is if he's revived in his original human body. The truth is, I always thought the revived shinobi should have gotten a "deceased (reincarnated)" status, but since they didn't, I'm starting to think any double standard for Madara because he broke out wouldn't work. Itachi also broke out of Kabutroll's control.. we didn't give him a special status. Just wait it out for awhile. Madara will probably be revived by Tobi anyway.. it's part of their "plan" after all.. or at the very least, he'll do to make his supposed rival killable. --M4ND0N (talk) 17:03, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

And if Madara was "really revived" into a wooden doll as a puppet, would that count as "alive/reincarnated" ??? I see the only problem people have is that his body is that of a sacrificed host and a dust, but does it matter? He has mind/soul/form and has a weight on the plot personally so ... : ) And yes, I was for a "reincarnated" status for Itachi as well, but he turned into dust and light and all that shit, while Madara CAN NO LONGER GO AWAY AS AN EDO, thus he shouldn't be treated as one anymore (my opinion)--Elveonora (talk) 17:55, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

้้้Though the Greyjoys believe that what is dead may never die, in Naruto, what is dead... is dead. Madara is still an Edo Tensei even if he's operating of his own free will. He's still a soul attatched to someone else's body.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 18:00, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

But how do you define life and death and the status of being either? Something being conscious = alive in my opinion. I think there was a topic if to consider "human puppets" as alive or dead since they still produce chakra or some shit, the opinion is NO because physical form doesn't equal life when mind and soul aren't present, Madara has the latter, so even if he has no "true body" he is perfectly living. To tell the truth, he doesn't even need to get revived with Gedo no jutsu because this form is superior to mortal body with limited chakra :) By your definitions of "living" Edo Sasori was more alive than Puppet Sasori--Elveonora (talk) 18:12, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

I define them: He's still been brought back by the Edo Tensei and until his soul actually leaves the vessel it is in now and goes back into the body he had before dying, he can't be considered alive. Itachi was a similar case until the technique ended no? All the Edo Tensei were conscious beings as they could tell what was going on around them, remember their pasts and lament the decisions they were making, so that doesn't make Madara any different/special. As for the Sasori bit, he was considered alive because his "living core" had in everything essential for him to be alive so I'm not too sure how he fits into this.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 18:20, July 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * life- everything before you die and are slung underground, incinerated, floated on a raft out to sea or any other burial procedure.
 * death is everything after dying
 * reincarnated- soul being brought back into another vessel
 * revived- being reborn into the body that you had during life

But isn't the technique also called "impure world reincarnation" ? :) the thing is that he has the limitations of Edo Tensei no longer, he has broken the contract thus is no longer affected by the technique like he can't be unsummoned or being put under control by talismans etc. the "sacrifice's body" is now his own, or not?--Elveonora (talk) 18:29, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, impure world reincarnation is the technique's name, but any of them had status changed because this! --MaskedManMadara (talk) 19:01, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

Putting aside all the his body/another body potential discussion, I think the only way I think I could consider Madara as alive instead of dead is if he were to use Rinne Tensei to make himself truly alive. How does the factor of him being brought back in a body that isn't his would still be an important part of the discussion. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:50, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

We're not suggesting that we say he's "alive", not at all. But since all the other edos are already gone, and Madara's the only one left, we honestly wouldn't be making much of an exception by listing him as deceased (reincarnated), I mean think about it.. it's something we should have done from the beginning to all the revived shinobi to set them apart from characters like Jiraiya and Hiruzen, who are completely deceased and no longer play a role in the story.. and the reincarnated tag would go when they're sealed or the technique is ended. It's a slightly different status intended for shinobi who are revived with the Edo Tensei, making it clear that they're deceased, yet still walking the earth in the current plot of the story. I don't think that's too much to ask, to be honest. I just think it would be good to set apart revived shinobi from physically deceased, and subsequently inactive characters. --M4ND0N (talk) 23:34, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be any point in listing him as reincarnated since we didn't list any other edo's as reincarnated, and the reincarnation status would become irrelevant as soon as his situation changes. TricksterKing (talk) 04:33, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

Where are people getting this idea he can no longer be controlled by the talismans? There's no evidence or anything to suggest that control cannot be re-established, just that Madara has broken it. Itachi did the same thing and Kabuto fully intended to take control of him again. Madara has escaped the Summoner's ability to recall him, he is essentially in the position he would have been if Itachi and Sasuke had killed Kabuto instead of trapping him in a genjutsu. Other than the modifications giving him abilities he didn't have in life, there is nothing different between him and any other Edo. You can argue he's different by virtue of being the last one standing, but that's like saying all of Kabuto's Edos are different from Orochimaru's cause they showed up after Orochimaru's technique ended. He's just an Edo tensei, a ridiculously broken one in terms of power, but no different from any other out there. Hell, if anything this makes me wonder why Tobirama didn't break the control on himself when he was first summoned, probably to do with whatever limiters Orochimaru had in place, but that's off topic. Madara has escaped being dispersed because he had an ability to do so, this does not change his nature as an Edo or make him any more special than other people. Dan managed to avoid dispersal if for a time, proving that surviving past the technique's release isn't anything unique to Madara. He's still a dead guy hitching a ride on someone else's corpse, it's just that now, nobody is holding the reigns. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 05:11, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

Firstly, there's a list on the Edo Tensei article that lists all the reincarnated shinobi. But I don't see the difference it will make to list Madara as being reincarnated deceased or simply deceased. People following the series will know he's still moving around and if you read the article, you get the same information. Changing his status has 0 effect on anything.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 11:45, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

@Hawkeye2701 Madara stated that anyone revived by the technique who can do what he can do, cannot be controlled. He said "Theres nothing more troublesome than doing that. An undying body...Unlimited chakra...It cannot be controlled." so the talismans won't work on him anymore and he can't be controlled again. Hes a permanently free Edo Tensei. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 12:07, July 9, 2012 (UTC))

Why The Change In Madara Uchiha Wikia
Where was it revealed without a shadow of a doubt that Madara survived his battle at the valley of the end?

Manga, shortly after he was revived with Edo Tensei--Elveonora (talk) 18:33, July 10, 2012 (UTC)

Possible alterations needed.
Why has it been said on wikia that the Rinnegan is a progression of the Sharingan?


 * It's been said in manga--Elveonora (talk) 18:18, July 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * It's been said by a non Uchiha who theorised this, it has not been confirmed, It is possible that Madara simply unlocked another dojutsu.


 * And we only go with what we know, since we don't know more, it's listed what has been stated, so no speculations, also sign your posts--Elveonora (talk) 18:33, July 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * Excuse me Fianchetto, but could you point out where exactly you saw it say that please? --Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 18:35, July 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * What why not state that Kabuto suggested that it is an evolution rather than stating that it is, since Kabuto did not even know everything about the Edo Tensei that he used. Also you stated that Madara did not die at the valley of the end, when he stated that he fought Hashirama in a battle to death.--Fianchetto (Fianchetto)

It is stated in Sharingan "Beyond The Mangekyo Sharingan".--Fianchetto (talk) 18:41, July 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * Madara himself confirmed that he did not die there, he only seemingly died. Also I'll see if I can reword the Sharingan bit, if it's necessary.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 18:44, July 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * Sorry it's in Sharingan "Beyond The Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan"
 * Not only does it say that it is an evolution, but it states that this is a fact, and also states that it is written on the Stone Monument of the Uchiha in the Naka Shrine rather that stated by Kabuto.
 * As well as that, why does it say in Madara Uchiha that it has been revealed that Madara did not die at the valley of the end, who revealed this?
 * Kabuto made that statement and Madara did not confirm this in anyway, he was just silent.
 * It also states that Madara has the ability to switch between his Rinnegan and his Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan at will, when this feat has never been displayed, he has no need to switch between them he can use all of his EMS techs with Rinnegan activated.
 * If you are referring to his clones, Madara's one Rinnegan clone never deactivate it's Rinnegan, and his Sharingan clones never had Rinnegan and never activated it either.--Fianchetto (talk) 18:58, July 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * My 2 cents, Sharingan/Rinnegan are evolution/devolution/stage/whatever of each other because Madara has only 1 pair of eyes in his sockets, and doesn't have to rip out Sharingan and plug-in Rinnegan in order to use it (and in reverse) the thing that Madara was silent when Kabuto suggested it is proof enough that it's right, because when someone is not talking it's more likely because there's no disagreement.
 * EDIT: Madara lived long enough to meet Nagato in person and didn't deny that survived his battle with Hashirama, for the rest ... do you read the manga?
 * EDIT2: guts, sign your comments ...--Elveonora (talk) 19:29, July 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * Madara did not live long enough to know Nagato, there are many ways in which he could know him other than living long enough, like this way.
 * Madara was silent about a lot of things that Kabuto said, silence is not a confirmation of something being correct especially not from a shinobi, and Madara statements about the caster of the Edo tensei, implies that he thinks Kabuto is beneath him.
 * Anyway why are in a hurry to put things down as fact about a character that is still shrouded in mystery, Madara's stated that he fought Hashirama too death, there was a death in the battle and that was not Hashirama.
 * He was not being figurative, he did not say in a battle to the death, he said He fought Him In A Battle To Death, he stated that Hashirama was more powerful than him on many occasions, if Madara lived to know Nagato he would have been in his late 90s at least.--Fianchetto (talk) 20:03, July 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * You are speculating too much, what manga said is listed ... "how, why, when" will be revealed by Kishi later.

Your link doesn't work as well. Madara sure survived his battle with Hashirama as the only reason he fought him was to get a portion of his power, also Madara awakened a Rinnegan shortly before his death ... it's not likely he had it vs Hashirama--Elveonora (talk) 20:14, July 10, 2012 (UTC)

Madara wouldn't necessarily be in his 90's. He could have learned about Nagato when he was a baby; we simply don't know enough yet. As far as we've been told, Madara survived.--BeyondRed (talk) 20:29, July 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * Some of this long discussion page wasn't even needed since Madara's knowing Nagato is living proof that he didn't die at the Valley of the End. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 21:21, July 10, 2012 (UTC))


 * There is so much speculation on this, as a wikia forum shouldn't it only have facts?? Some people refer to this for discussions, and things being stated such as the rinnegan being an evolution of the EMS being written on the stone monument, or Madara some how escaping Hashirama and Mito as fact should not be done, otherwise the site won't be a reliable source of info.
 * The site does not need to call things that are not fact fact, there has been no flash back of Madara surviving and Madara himself has not said he survived, he has more or less said that he died, "I Fought Hashirama In A Battle To Death", Madara's Edo ressurection is the same age as his supposed death, as well as that he also has the rinnegan meaning he got it when he was young, meaning he died young way to young to know about Nagato.
 * Tobimaru who is an incredible senor somehow missed that Madara was still alive??
 * He said that he awakened the rinnegan shortly before his death, who in NU history awakened the rinnegan in their old age??
 * All I am saying is that there is nothing wrong with not saying that he survived until you have proof that he did, it's not like it's a minor change in the story line it's a huge change, surely you don't want what you said to be a mistake, no one knows of what happened at the valley of the end.
 * Why give the impression that we do? --93.97.41.8 (talk) 22:55, July 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * BTW Madara did not state that he only fought Hashi to acquire his DNA, this was another statement by kabuto, even if madara did do this he would not have said, he does not talk like that, telling people his every secret, this is how Kabuto behaves forgot to log in, It's Fianchetto.--93.97.41.8 (talk) 22:58, July 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * There's nothing wrong and nothing false with the way it is now, you are nitpicking--Elveonora (talk) 23:49, July 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't think I am nitpicking at all, if it was something small than yes that is what I would be doing, but there are statements here which are not yet fact being presented as fact concerning one of the most important battles of the story, then the wikia presented statements which are also not yet factual as factual concerning the most important dojutsu of the series.
 * I'm just saying a lot of people refer to this site, and a degree of certainty concerning such issues should be important to the site.--Fianchetto (talk) 00:13, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

I see, sorry if it sounded rude. Can you copy-paste or give link to examples that you feel should be changed?--Elveonora (talk) 00:22, July 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * @Fiachetto Check Manga chapter 559. Madara did survive the battle with Hashirama because he knew Nagato and revealed then that he did by saying his name and voicing belief that Nagato had revived him. Theres no question Madara survived his battle with Hashirama at the Valley of the End. Also Madara did not say he died during that battle. What he said mean't that it was a fight that ended in a Last Man Standing kind of way. But it has been revealed that he didn't die against Hashirama then. His youthful appearance was probably due to taking Hashirama's cells and finding a way to augment his appearance to the point where he didn't age. Tobi has done something similar and has only slightly aged. The way he can use Wood Release is also proof that he didn't die because he would have needed practice to be able to use it so powerfully and on such high scales as well as to be able to use it at all because without practice, he wouldn't know how. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 00:54, July 11, 2012 (UTC))


 * Firstly Thank You For The Apology.
 * "While Madara's reincarnation during the Fourth Great Shinobi World War lends credibility to the belief that he is actually dead, it has been revealed that he was not killed during his fight with Hashirama at the Valley of the End."
 * It has not been revealed that he was not killed during his fight with Hashirama at the valley of the end.
 * "The Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan has been shown to be able to progress to the Rinnegan through unknown means. This was displayed by Madara Uchiha who noted that he was able to awaken this dōjutsu shortly before his death, which contrary to popular belief, did not occur at the battle at the Valley of the End. This fact was written on the Stone Monument of the Uchiha located in the Naka Shrine."
 * The part about the EMS leads people to believe that the Rinnegan is the final stage in the Sharingan rather than it's own Dojutsu, by saying EMS has been shown to progress into the Rinnegan, as A three Tomoe would progress into a Mangekyo Sharingan.
 * The second part actually states that this "fact" has been written on the stone Monument of the Uchiha, the manga does not state this, through feats, flashbacks or from Madara himself.
 * The one is just a theory, and non of it is confirmed.
 * "Despite losing the battle, he was able to survive and gain a part of Hashirama's DNA with which he was able to use the Wood Release. Shortly before his death decades later, Madara awakened his own Rinnegan."
 * It's just that non of this has been confirmed, where did the "decades later" come from, or the ability to use motukon, even if Madara acquired some of hashirama's DNA, we have not been told by anyone that he could use motukon during his life time.
 * We also do not know if he survived, we just know that he awakened the Rinnegan shortly before his death.
 * @The Fox King. This is speculation and not fact Madara states more or less says "That brat Nagato finaly grew up" meaning that Nagato could have tried to resurrect the young prime madara as a child, under the influence of Tobi,

but as he was too young he did not have enough chakra to do the resurrection completely (especially since if this is the case madara would have been dead for around 50-60 years) causing Madara to die again, I am not saying that this happened I am just saying there is more than one explanation and when that happens one explanation should not be presented as fact over the others, until it is confirmed.--Fianchetto (talk) 01:27, July 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * You have kinda contradicted yourself, for first, you also believe that Madara lived long enough to meet child Nagato. You know that Nagato died as (circa) 42 years old, and was born LOOOOOONG after the fight against Hashirama at Final Valley has occurred. Rinnegan really do appear to be an upper step from Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan. The monument stuff comes from Oro's and Kabuto's research and Madara didn't deny. Decades later is Nagato's time for sure--Elveonora (talk) 01:41, July 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * Fianchetto Acquiring Hashirama's cells is what enables one to use Wood Release. Thats how Yamato and Danzo got it. And Madara wouldn't be able to use it if not for that and having had it prior to dying as he wouldn't have known how without practice. Thats how we know acquiring Hashirama's cells helped him. The decades later part comes in where Madara knows Nagato's name and Nagato wasn't even born, much less able to use Rinnegan until decades after the fight with Hashirama. Madara was probably the one who gave Nagato the Rinnegan. His ability to switch between it and the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan is an indicator that Nagato might not have been a natural holder of the Rinnegan as his was always active, similar to Danzo and Kakashi's Sharingan. Check Where Gaara pulls him out of his Susanoo and into the path of Naruto's Rasenshuriken if you want to see where he switched between the two at will. The Fox king(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 02:06, July 11, 2012 (UTC))


 * I did not say that madara lived long enough to know Nagato, please tell me where I say that, I actually believe that madara died waaay before nagato was born, which is why I said for him to have known nagato he would have to be at least 90.
 * The monument statement, Kabuto said that he made madara better than his prime, this was in response to madara's question concerning what kabuto did to his body, which he asked after checking under his shirt, madara then said "you know the secrets of my body without even being able to read the monument".
 * This was nothing to do with the statement that kabuto made about the sharingan and the rinnegan, answered that statement with "I awakened the rinnegan" and then asked his own question about his body, this is what made him talk about the monument not kabuto's sharingan statement
 * I have the manga link here http://i33.mangapanda.com/naruto/560/naruto-2733407.jpg

http://i10.mangapanda.com/naruto/560/naruto-2733409.jpg
 * @The Fox King, Speculation again we do not know if madara was able to use wood release danzo had hashi's cells, and couldn't use motokun, & danzo most likely had more cells than madara ever did as madara would have had to had gotten them from a living fighting hashirama --Fianchetto (talk) 02:10, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

Madara definately would know how to use the motokun techs, seeing as he is an uchiha who would have clashed with hashirama on many occasions and could use the sharingan memorise Hashirama's ninjutsu, something that uchiha are well known for being able to do. Madara just didn't have the right nature release to copy hashirama's techs, until now.--Fianchetto (talk) 02:14, July 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * You are complicating and contradicting this for no valid reason, I still don't see anything wrong with the way it is now. Let's end the debate now ... just go, and edit the pages yourself, and if the majority won't like the edits, expect them to get reversed--Elveonora (talk) 02:21, July 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * @The Fox King, No one who has had the rinnegan has been shown to deactivate, not Nagato, not The Sage, not Tobi, and not Madara.
 * Not all transplanted dojutsu work the same, the Byakugan can be deactivated even when it is a transplant to a non Hyuga, and can also work from birth, The Sharingan however awakens in stages, it also can't be deactivated by the new user of it unless they are an themselves an Uchiha, the rinnegan does not awaken in stages and for all we know does not get deactivated.
 * Madara has never deactivated the rinnegan since he awakened it vs the 5 kages, he made 25 clones that lacked the rinnagan, and one clone that had it, and that clone never deactivted it either.
 * @Elvenora Firstly I was not aware that we could edit it ourselves, obviously there are penalties for ridiculous things being put in, also I was only suggesting slight changes so that the claims are not stronger than they should be, when they are lacking enough evidence for them to be fact.--Fianchetto (talk) 02:26, July 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * Wrong, what you said was speculation. Madara had to have praticed to be able to mix the chakra natures together to be able to make it create wood. Not Practicing, he wouldn't have been able to use it on the level he can either, even he he was Hashirama's rival. Thats not an element that can be simply copied. Yes, Danzo did have Wood Release, both he and Tobi noted it was because of Hashirama's cells and Tobi stated it was Wood Release. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 02:37, July 11, 2012 (UTC))


 * Wrong, he has changed it from EMS to Rinnegan and backwards already ... It was also clearly shown that he can use MS techniques with Rinnegan, but has to activate Rinnegan in order to use it's powers.--Elveonora (talk) 02:39, July 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * @ Elveonora Click me This thread highlights what I am saying, I looked though his whole battle so far, he never deactivate the rinnegan.
 * @The Fox King It has been stated many times, even on this very wikia, that the Uchiha can copy techs perfectly after seeing it only once, it is one of the abilities granted by their dojutsu, and has been displayed by Sasuke (copying rock lee's tech after seeing it just once) before he even had a fully matured Sharingan, and by Kakashi (copying 1000 ninjutsu) someone who is not even a full uchiha.--Fianchetto (talk) 02:47, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure I remember Madara himself reverting back to EMS for a while, not to mention ... what's your point? I'm still missing it ... Madara switched from EMS to Rinnegan and it sounds like you indicate it's permanent now and he can't switch back to EMS/turn his eyes off? Ridiculous ... what point are you trying to make exactly? There's just simply no reason to use EMS when he can use Susanoo and presumably other MS powers with Rinnegan activated--Elveonora (talk) 02:57, July 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * Exactly correct, there is simply no reason for him to switch between the two, when he can use MS techs while the rinnegan is activated.
 * My point is when you say he can switch between the two it gives the impression that he has more control over his eyes than Nagato, which gives the impression that Nagato's eyes are implants, despite the fact that it should not give this impression as every dojutsu is different, you can see from "The Fox King's" argument that it does.--Fianchetto (talk) 03:03, July 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * Oh, but why do you bring Nagato into this? You are making up speculations and theories now, and making ur own opinion that contradicts with the manga. The manga clearly stated that according to Tobi, Nagato's Rinnegan was given to him by "Uchiha Madara" 2 things to support this are that Nagato can't use Mangekyou Sharingan powers, and that Madara himself knows Nagato. Maybe you are new here or something, but we often do list only what we know from official sources, and make assumptions only where there are enough proofs. What you bring is a complete opposite of what this wikia is meant for, why you yourself stated that you dislike speculations and prefer facts. Thus any theorizing on your part is not true, simply. But also I see no problem with your edits to Madara's page--Elveonora (talk) 03:08, July 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * @Fianchetto It has been stated that the Sharingan can not copy kekkei genkai techniques, which is what the Wood Release is. He couldn't have done that with Hashirama. You are wrong on this. So he had to have gotten it from Hashirama's cells and practiced to get it where he can use it like he can now. The Fox king(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 03:13, July 11, 2012 (UTC))


 * @Elveonora I brought Nagato into this because you and Fox king did, by saying that because Madara knows nagato's name that he must have lived decades after his fight with Hashirama, when I said this was not so, The fox king said that Nagato's eyes being implants support the theory that Madara survived.
 * Tobi said that he gave nagato his the rinnegan, not that Madara gave nagato the Rinnegan, and tobi saying that could mean that he caused the situation which resulted in Nagato's rinnegan being awakened, btw it is also stated on this wikia that nagato awakened his rinnegan. I am not bringing it here as my own speculation, it is on your site because according to the manga, we see nagato without Rinnegan one minute and we see it with him it the next, anything that tobi says happen should not override a feat that we have actually seen in the manga.
 * I mean, I'm not trying to offend anyone here or say they are not doing things right it's just that I use this site for referral and if people see things here that are not in the manga I can't use the anymore because it loses credibility, we all saw what happened to the data book and it's description of amatereasu (As hot as the sun, appears on the opponent).
 * I'll end up having to find another site, when this is one of the best naruto fact wiki's online finding one as good would be very hard, I'm just trying to preserve the credibility of the site, believe me I have theories that are way out there, you would know if I am using speculation, almost all of my theories are 60% backed by this site, and 40% by the manga.
 * I use this site for referring, up until today I did not even have an account, I had to make one because of the speculation that I saw was presented as fact.
 * @The Fox King I already said that Madara could not use Hashirama's motokun techs because they were KG, I siad that Madara would have known how to do them, because Uchiha can memories jutsu after seeing it once but that Madara lacked the KG to actually use them during his life time.--Fianchetto (talk) 03:30, July 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * Then what explanation do you have for Madara knowing Nagato's name? Remember, he didn't deny anything what stated in the conversation. It is stated that Nagato activated Rinnegan when his parents died, if he awakened it on his own is questionable, as Tobi suggests opposite ... he was pretending to be Uchiha Madara even before Konan, thus "I" = Madara.

The latter part is correct, there's no proof Madara has used Hashirama's DNA on himself before death as I also consider his Wood Release and stuff to be a result of the modification/enhancements by Kabuto. Sharingan can see chakra and copy movement, Madara must have copied the techniques from Hashirama, but have gotten the power to use them only after revival--Elveonora (talk) 03:38, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

I don't know why he knows Nagato's name, kishi is an evil genius, I have more questions about this manga than any I have ever read, like where is orochimaru going, is the scroll a time machine?? I just knew that it had not been confirmed yet that Madara did not die, or even that he lived for that long.--Fianchetto (talk) 04:26, July 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * @Fianchetto. It doesn't make any difference. Even if Madara knew what Hashirama was doing, he's still need practice to be able to use it the way he can as he couldn't copy it and therefore wouldn't know how to properly mix the two without practicing it. The memorization thing is of the Sharingan. The ability to copy techniques. All he could was see what Hashirama was doing. Doing it himself would have required practice. You presented belief that he might have seen Nagato as a baby, but even then, it would still have been decades later. No incomplete versions of the Samsara Heavenly Life technique have been seen, so your theory about him seeing Nagato as a child through incomplete, temporary return is speculation. Tobi also implies they met and Madara knows Nagato, which means that he did not die during his final battle with Hashirama. Those are clearly presented facts of the manga. The Fox kIng(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 12:04, July 11, 2012 (UTC))


 * @The Fox King, I am not saying you are right or that you are wrong, it is your theory though and not fact, please do not put it up there for other people to refer to as it is not fair for your opinion to be placed on others.--93.97.41.8 (talk) 15:06, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Your determination to say that Madara could use Wood release during his life is astonishing, until it is confirmed it has no place among the facts.--93.97.41.8 (talk) 15:09, July 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * @93.97.41.8 He could use it in life or he wouldn't be able to use it in death. The Edo Tensei revives one with the same capabilities in they had in life. You are speculating. As I've said, he couldn't copy the Wood Release from hashirama and wouldn't know how to use it without practice, even though he knew the natures that formed it. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 15:39, July 11, 2012 (UTC))


 * @The Fox King Kabuto said that he improved Madara beyond his prime. This was either immediately after or immediately before he Madara looked under his shirt, I am not speculating you are.
 * You have a theory, and that theory is "As Madara can use Motokun in death it is likely that he used it in life, in conclusion Madara used Motokun in life". < Theory not fact.
 * Now it's fine for you to have a theory but please to not put these on Madara Uchiha's page as facts.
 * Another theory of yours is that "Since Madara knows Nagato he must have lived long after his battle with Hashirama" <-- this is your theory, but it is also one of many theories.
 * Why should your theory be presented as fact, we should only say things about Madara that kishi has established in the manga.
 * What are you going to do if your reasoning, as logical as you may think it is, turns out to result in this wikia conrtadicting the Manga.
 * This is a very dynamic point in the story, and a lot is likely to be revealed about Madara, Nagato, Tobi and what happened at the valley of the end, so lets just wait for now, lets just wait for facts.--Fianchetto (talk) 17:10, July 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * You know what, I just checked the page and you changed it again, you are so determined to have your way, and make strong statements that are not even needed, I am not going to change it back, despite the fact that the words I used are closer to the truth, if the Mods here don't mind what you have said then so be it.
 * Let's see how kishi progresses the series, I hope there won't have to be any embarrassing changes, I was just trying to make sure that it is as avoided as possible.
 * For the time being however, keep in mind that what you have written in the wikia entry has not been established in the manga, and if people notice this kind of trend, feats that have not been seen in the manga (and not even in the non canon) being written put down as Naruto history here, this entry will lose credibility.
 * I hope that the rest of his entry does not become so subjective.--Fianchetto (talk) 17:19, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

Btw it says at the top of this page all speculation will be removed, can someone give me the chapter where Madara, not Tobi, actually sates that he survived his battle against Hashirama, then lived long enough to know Nagato.

Or where he has a flashback of himself using Motokun in life, and where he says that he used Motokun during his life.

Lol anyway, when kishi clears it up I'm sure it will be changed

Also Cerez365 I never said that I doubted anything, but Fox King did make claims that were not backed up, I tried to make them more factual and safer and it is assumed that I am changing it out of arrogance.--Fianchetto (talk) 17:33, July 11, 2012 (UTC)

@Fianchetto You don't believe that practice is needed to learn things. Even when something like what Sasuke did with Lee is done, it still takes practice. It stands to reason that something that can't be copied would need even more practice since nothing can be immediately verified other than what Hashirama did to make the Wood Release. You speculate and don't make since. Yours would be closer to the truth if what was written there was not verified, but it is. Madara's capabilities, behavior, and statements are proof that he didn't die then. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 17:43, July 11, 2012 (UTC))

Meet Nagato
We should add in the background that Madara meet Nagato somewhere in his life because he tought that he ressurected him,so Madara meet Nagato.--Azed (talk) 04:39, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

Its added now. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 12:57, July 19, 2012 (UTC))


 * It's already mentioned in the Shinobi World War Arc the way he said it, no more mention needs to be made of it because it invites speculation.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 13:16, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

And it's not like we know the circumstances. For all we know, Madara only met Nagato as a baby or an infant, knowing he'd awake the Rinnegan or arranging for that to happen. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:50, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

@Omnibender Madara was probably the won who gave Nagato the Rinnegan. Tobi implies that they met and stated that Madara had given it to him and Madara assumed Nagato revived him, so he knew Nagato had it. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 16:02, July 19, 2012 (UTC))
 * Yes but we don't know the circumstances under which Madara met Nagato or even if he gave him the Rinnegan (that's speculation but meh). If horcruxes can exist in Naruto then who is to say Madara was even alive when he met Nagato? The point is that while for others something like this could "slip by" it's too controversial here so just put what was actually said there for now and then the rest later when we find out what really happened.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 16:11, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

Orochimaru did that, not Madara. And Tobi attributed Madara to having given the Rinnegan as he was posing as Madara and allowed Konan to believe thats who he was. Madara probably did give it to him. All the evidence points to that. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 16:26, July 19, 2012 (UTC))
 * I never said Madara did it. I jokingly called them horcruxes and said if they can exist in the series then anything is possible. As for where Nagato got his Rinnegan, anything is possible, and though it'll be interesting to know, it's all still speculation.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 16:34, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

Nagato couldn't deactivate the Rinnegan, obvious in the fact that it was still active even after he died and that it didn't deactivate even when he was massively low on chakra. Madara, however, can deactivate his Rinnegan and we know he awakened it shortly before he died. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 17:25, July 19, 2012 (UTC))
 * Whut? When have you ever seen a Rinnegan wielder (except Madara who progressed to it so shouldn't count) ever not have the Rinnegan visible? Nothing indicates that it can be deactivated like the Sharingan with regular users or the Byakugan that Ao has so that's not good precedence. If you go back to the point in the manga when Nagato was infiltrating Konoha's Sensing System Technique you'll see that the Rinnegan can in fact be (de)activated (the sound effect was translated for us I believe) right where he sees the barrier, but similar to the Byakugan it does not show it/there is no drastic change. Hence you wouldn't be able to tell when the Rinnegan was in fact active or no.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 17:36, July 19, 2012 (UTC)