Talk:Indra Ōtsutsuki

Doujutsu
his doujutsu's shape is the same as naruto's back don't you think?


 * Your point being? The manga is littered with spirals. --ShounenSuki (talk 14:24, October 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * and not just him but also the uniforms of konoha jonins i mean is there any link between them and this ancestor or maybe between the uzumaki clan?


 * If I remember correctly, Kishimoto-sensei once said that he likes drawing spirals in an interview. That could explain their ubiquity. A possible connection between the Uzumaki and the Uchiha ancestor is highly unlikely and wouldn't explain the many spirals in Konoha. A connection between the Uzumaki and the Senju is far more likely, but still dubious, as the Senju were from the Land of Fire and the Uzumaki from the Land of Whirlpools. --ShounenSuki (talk 19:34, October 23, 2009 (UTC)

I also started to wonder if there was a connection between the swirling eyes and the Uzumaki clan symbol. It could be a possibility because we don't know if the Uzumaki Clan isn't a descendent of the so called "Uchiha" clan ancestor, the Uzumaki clan symbol could be a representation of the eye form and later on the Uzumaki clan became more closely related to the Senju Clan; this could explain the Nagato (Uzumaki/rinnegan) question. Though at this moment all this is a hypothesis/conjecture, so we will just have to wait and see. :) --Alastar 89 (talk) 06:10, November 8, 2010 (UTC)

i know this is just speculation but is it posible that the byakugan has nothing to do with this doujutsu and it is just a mangekyou sharingan after all kakashi said it was rumored that the uchiha were disended from the hyuuga and a rumor is just a rumor--
 * Yes friend, it is possible. But the opposite is just as possible.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 02:47, August 16, 2011 (UTC)

Name
Shouldn't its name be capitalized to Uchiha Clan Ancestor?Saimaroimaru (talk) 02:34, December 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * Explained this at Talk:Senju clan ancestor. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Dec 18, 2009 @ 02:39 (UTC)

Bakcground
If its believed that his eyes were the foundation for the byakugan and sharingan, why are only the uchiha clan members considered decsendants of this guy? Just curious Dj q-pid (talk) 02:52, October 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * The byakugan was actually never mentioned to be derived from those eyes just that they sharingan is an offshoot of the byakugan connecting them there would be unnecessary speculation--Cerez365 (talk) 03:07, October 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * but wait, i read in one of the discussions about he uchiha that kakashi says that the uchiha are offspring of the hyuga.Dj q-pid (talk) 16:44, October 10, 2010 (UTC)

yeah i remember that manga very well --Hazel-rah (talk) 15:22, March 26, 2011 (UTC)

Kaguya?
His appearance is somewhat similar to the Kaguya clan's facial appearance. He has similar marks on his eyes and forehead. Could it be mentioned in the trivia that he could possibly be a Kaguya ancestor, or at least that his appearance resembles that of the Kaguya clan's? --Kracel (talk) 00:07, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

Uchiha clan
I don't think we should list it as his clan. From what Madara said, his descendants became the Uchiha clan, it didn't exist when this guy was alive. Same case for the Senju clan ancestor. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:35, December 5, 2010 (UTC)

Makes sense, I agree. Fmakck - Talk - Contributions
 * I see your point he was never a member as long as it's mentioned in his article removing it should be fine. --Cerez365 (talk) 15:15, December 5, 2010 (UTC)

Brother
The Senju Clan Ancestor is said to be the younger brother of the Uchiha Clan Ancestor on the character page but not on the infobox.If the Senju Clan Ancestor younger brother then that info should be removed.Any objections?

If this is about not listing him in the infobox, let me get out of the way: Wikia is to blame. Since this character and Senju Clan Ancestor both have the same character listed as a parent, usually the infoboxes would automatically add these characters to each other's infoboxes, but because Wikia broke infobox stuff, it doesn't happen, so adding them isn't necessary, someone already did something a while ago that made one brother be listed as the other's parent. Just wait until Wikia fixes it, there's already an update to something coming up, so there's a good chance some wonky stuff will be set right soon. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:46, December 9, 2010 (UTC)

Family
I am sorry but it names his brothers as a bunch of people like choji and shino. I dont know if this is a mistake. If not can someone explain the whole family thing?
 * It is a bug in the infobox system. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 04:36, May 7, 2011 (UTC)

Dojutsu's Color
In the flashback, his dojutsu looks red. But in the illustration, it either has no color or has a very faint purple color. Can anyone tell me what's going on? --BlackGhost91 (talk) 03:50, October 24, 2011 (UTC)

Saying there is no color besides black and white whatsoever in the manga, I don't find this to be weird at all. Nothing much, you? (talk) 03:53, October 24, 2011 (UTC)

Sword as a weapon
We have seen him using it, should not it be added ? --Elveonora (talk) 05:09, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Chakra and Spiritual Energy
This article says that he inherited his fathers "spiritual energy". Chakra is the same as spiritual energy, right? I mean, it's not like Bleach. Could this have been a mistranslation? KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 18:36, July 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * No, chakra is made from both physical and spiritual energies, his was strong because of the latter, I think--Elveonora (talk) 21:24, July 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I looked at the definitions of Yin and Yang and Yin-Yang release, and it says that Yin is ones spiritual energy. Does that mean, he inherited the Sages intense yin chakra? Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 21:53, July 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * I believe the only time Yin and Yang were directly stated to be related to spiritual/physical energy was in chapter 510 and it wasn't really elaborated on. It is strange that Senju has powerful physical energy and Uchiha has powerful spiritual energy, yet only the Uchiha have been noted for having powerful chakra as a whole, but that's all we've been told on the matter.--BeyondRed (talk) 22:09, July 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * The Senju and their Relatives the Uzumaki have also been noted to have great amounts of chakra as well. The Uchiha as a whole, haven't been known to have massive chakra. Really only Madara was praised for that. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 22:12, July 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * Not massive amounts of chakra like Kisame for example, but "powerful" chakra like Orochimaru has. I believe the Uzumaki were only said to have plentiful and "special" chakra by Kushina, whereas Tobi (or possibly Itachi) told Sasuke the Uchiha have "powerful" chakra, with Madara's being the most powerful of all. It doesn't explain the situation with the Sage's sons, however.--BeyondRed (talk) 22:45, July 5, 2013 (UTC)

Sharingan?
Should we list him as a user or wait to see if it was a mistake that he was shown with it. TricksterKing (talk) 07:24, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

I never once thought the spiraling eyes were actually how they looked. The way they were first drawn, it was done in an ukiyoe style, with bodily features stylized differently. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 08:05, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

No, I think since the manga never officially colored the eyes, it is now safe to assume the spiral eyes are just his Mangekyo Sharingan. He was apparently the Original Sharingan, Mangekyo Sharingan and Susanoo wielder. So it makes sense. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 08:55, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

I doubt it was a mistake as Indra is the Uchiha's ancestor and his Sharingan is shown multiple times in chapter 670. The real question is if he has the Rinnegan or not, or if because of the odd look, those spiraling eyes are a variation of it or the Sharingan. The mistake is probably in the info-box image if there is one. EmotionalRockfish (talk) 07:12, March 28, 2014 (UTC)

Can someone add Susanoo as one of Indra's jutsus.
Can someone add Susanoo as one of Indra's jutsus. DetectiveDuckling (talk) 15:15, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Users are added to the jutsu's page, not the character, and Indra has already been added. Please look up before making such topics. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:23, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

amaterasu and susanoo?
Shouldn't we say in his list of jutsu tsukuyomi and amaterasu?--AsianInvasion711 (talk) 02:16, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * There's actually an ongoing discussion about this on Susanoo's talk page —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 02:19, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * He does not demonstrate the use of these techniques, we're waiting the next chapters.—Entondark (talk) 02:21, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

Spiral-shaped Mangekyō Sharingan.
Here's my theory; the spiraling pupils from Indra's first appearance was actually the form of his Mangekyō Sharingan. Steveo920, 9:24 March 27, 2014
 * Not even a theory or speculation, but logical conclusion. Earlier he was shown with weird eyes and recently with a Sharingan. We also know he could use Susanoo, which requires Mangekyou, therefore the weird eyes having been Mangekyou is almost given--Elveonora (talk) 14:00, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

I'm 100% positive the spiral eyes is his Mangekyo Design. Also UNLESS Hagoromo's brother has the Byakugan, then the Sharingan came first definitely came first and Kakashi's statement has been completely proven false. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 14:25, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Even tho I'm not a fan of the Byakugan > Sharingan conspiracy of Kakashi's myself, I wouldn't say it's been completely disproved, yet... Shinigami ;) I mean, Kaguya's eyes resemble what a Hyuga's deactivated eyes look like. So perhaps:


 * Byakugan + god fruit = Rinnegan - certain genes = Sharingan. You heard it here first--Elveonora (talk) 14:37, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

So, we gonna use this or what? Seelentau 愛議 17:32, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd say it's a safe enough assumption for the time being. FF-Suzaku (talk) 17:36, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * I had brought up the topic at the file's talk page. My intention was to update that file, I was just playing it safe and giving people a chance to voice their opinions. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:41, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Absolutely agree. Its definitely his Mangekyō. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:54, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

Cannot believe I didn't notice that Elve.. yeah I think Kaguya had the Byakugan now that I look at her.. Also, I severely doubt the Juubi gave Rikudo the Rinnegan.. I think he just had it from birth since his mother took the Juubi's chakra basically, so he was born with the Juubi's eye, just like his brother might have been.. although his brother might have just been born with the Byakugan on the other hand... we just don't know yet on that part ItachiWasAHero (talk) 00:03, March 28, 2014 (UTC)

While I'm leaning with disagreeing that it's Sharingan, the Uzumaki spiral comparison adds another layer to the mystery. However, in this, Tobi/Obito says that Indra was born with the Sage's eyes. Obviously that's false, but those spiraling eyes are portrayed as Rinnegan in that scene. The fact there is some misinformation in that page already makes me question it, but it at least has to be something similar to Rinnegan to be mistaken as it. It's possible it's a variation of Sharingan, but as Uchiha have awakened the Rinnegan, it's also possible the same is true of Indra. We shouldn't be ruling anything out yet. EmotionalRockfish (talk) 07:44, March 28, 2014 (UTC)


 * The Sage's "eyes" are perfectly correct. The Sharingan evolves into the Rinnegan. The Rinnegan is not a separate dōjutsu, but, as stated directly by Kabuto and indirectly by Madara, the Rinnegan is the final result of the Sharingan. No misinformation at all. His eyes are not a variation of the Rinnegan or the Sharingan. Genetic mutations on that level take generations to appear. The Sage does not just have a son and poof his genes have been mutated into a new eye. No. The Sage's son might, in fact, have Rinnegan, but if he does, its only because the Rinnegan is the final evolution of the Sharingan. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:01, March 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * The implication of that is that So6p has the Sharingan too tho.--Elveonora (talk) 17:09, March 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's exactly what I'm getting at. I'm not going to suggest that we add the Sage as a Sharingan/Mangekyō user, because certain people around here will flip their lids, but Kabuto confirmed it with genetic experimentation, and Madara all but confirmed his hypothesis directly. There's no more sure proof than that. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:17, March 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, the current assumption is that the Sage's Rinnegan being the original isn't an updated Sharingan. But that doesn't make sense, since Rinnegan without certain Senju specific genes equals Sharingan. Because of that, So6p is likely to have all the genes necessary for the Sharingan. But even if so, that still doesn't mean he had it. I mean, emotional stressful experience of what **** awakes it, while we don't know if the same is true for the Rinnegan.--Elveonora (talk) 21:28, March 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * You're misinterpreting the evidence. Kabuto confirmed, genetically, even outright said this (I didn't read between the lines): Senju and Uchiha DNA allow the Sharingan to complete its evolution into the Rinnegan. Madara was shocked by Kabuto's knowledge of this this, to which Kabuto explained that it began as a hypothesis, and was confirmed upon learning about Madara's own body. The Sage was the originator of the bloodline, so, genetically, he still would wield a Sharingan. But he would have the genetic capability to complete its evolution to the Rinnegan, whereas, after decades of genetic mutations, inbreeding, and blood dilution, his descendants, the Uchiha, wouldn't be able to awaken the Rinnegan from their Sharingan. But again, I'm not advocating adding the Sage as a user, because of the can of worms it would open among others. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 06:03, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

The Sage was never shown with or hinted at to have the Sharingan, therefor regardless of speculation it is moot. Although... Another interesting thing is that it was stated in one of the databook or fanbooks the Sage was the only person to fully master the Rinnegan.. that alone hints there were others with the Rinnegan in his time and forward. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 12:59, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * You all are aware that the Sage did not have his children through mitosis right? --Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 13:14, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

You are aware that there's absolutely no evidence that he didn't? And since we're dealing with a man who can literally create life from thin air, we can hold off on the speculation of Indra and Asura's mother as well as the state of their father's eyes. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 14:29, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * This. It isn't even absolute that So6p had a father. For all we know, Kaguya could have become pregnant from eating the fruit, as ridiculous at it sounds. But hey, it's religion/myths we are talking about, funny stuff happen there--Elveonora (talk) 14:35, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Cerez's comment made me spit out my morning milk. Thank you for that xD He's right though. You are all nuts. The difference between the Sage's sons and the other things he has created, namely, the moon and the tailed beasts; they are stated to be his sons that are part of his bloodline, while the others were directly stated to have been created. Let's face the facts people. This is how genes work. The Sage had a Sharingan. Like it or lump it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 16:50, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Bloody hell is that how far this has gotten?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:47, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, we don't even count half of Zetsu's abilities as Wood Release despite them being plant based and you want us to take genetics as evidence in a series where a guy literally turned a vague spiritual energy and transformed it into 9 individual creatures with their own personalities, lives etc.

I think that would be very misguided. Indra's spiral eye being his own Mangekyou, that's a fair enough logical leap as we now know he had the Sharingan, but even that can be argued with. But assuming just because genetics in our world require that someone has the required genes in order to pass this trait on does not mean that the writer knows/cares to use this in their work, especially, and I can't stress this enough, in a series where someone made life from nothing.

Even say we assume you're correct and he has the genes for the Sharingan, we don't know the criteria for awakening the Rinnegan and it's not like he needed both Senju and Uchiha DNA since he's their source. He could have awakened the Rinnegan as a child and never went through the process that brings about the Sharingan, leaving it, at best, as a kind of recessive gene that got passed on and utilized by Indra and his Descendants because they didn't have the chakra to awaken the Rinnegan. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 17:55, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

If this is your argument Ten Tails then Naruto has Kushina's chakra chains, Tsunade should have wood release, and Kaguya and Asura would ALSO have Sharingan.. but they DIDN'T now did they?? Sage didn't have Sharingan nough' said. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 18:29, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

Even if the Rinnegan is the final development of the Sharingan, and the genes necessary to have just a Sharingan are present in the Sage, I don't think we should list him as having a Sharingan. Let me make a comparison with a similar situation. Onoki can use Dust Release, which is a kekkei tota, he has genes that allow him to merge earth, wind, and fire natured chakra. His granddaughter can use Lava Release, which is a kekkei genkai, she has genes that allow her to merge earth and fire natured chakra. Just because Onoki has something that is one step further, it doesn't mean he can do something that is one step back. The whole dōjutsu situation for me is like this. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:32, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Both you and Hawkeye have great points. But saying that the Rinnegan is the final development of the Sharingan isn't correct as the Rinnegan isn't the final stage of the Sharingan, since it came first. But the Sharingan is an evolution/devolution of the Rinnegan. We were told that when one progresses beyond the Sharingan, there lies the Rinnegan.

The possibility is that it isn't only the Sharingan that lacks some Senju genes for the Rinnegan, but also that the Rinnegan doesn't carry all the Sharingan-specific genes. An Uchiha carries half the genes needed for the Rinnegan and a Senju the rest for example. A Senju could get the genes required for the Rinnegan that the Uchiha carry without also getting the Sharingan, since the Sharingan itself may be more than just what's missing. The Sharingan lets say is 50% of the Rinnegan genes the Uchiha carry but also other 50% that are new mutations from Indra's mother perhaps. So yeah, in this scenario they would be two separate eye powers with the Sharingan being 50% less than the Rinnegan but at the same time 50% more.--Elveonora (talk) 19:18, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

So basically to summarize myself, Omni and Elve, Even assuming that Hagoromo's kids are in fact his kids and not freaky creations of jutsu, there is no guarantee, even using genetics, that either-:

A. Indra has the Rinnegan (Seemingly having the Sage's 'Eyes' was more a metaphor than in any literal sense)

B. Hagoromo has the Sharingan. (Because there's no evidence for it and reasonable doubt against it)

All that can be said is that Hagoromo had two kids (Through methods to be defined) and one gained a Dojutsu that would be passed to his descendants and the other gained powerful chakra later in life after hard work and friendship power that would be passed onto his descendants. Then, somewhere down the line, Madara would steal the genetic material to give him the second son's traits and awaken the original power of the sons' father. I think that about covers it for sure. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 19:39, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

Nope. For me, Hagoromo had Rinnegan, and Indra had Sharingan. Hagoromo may have had the genes for the Sharingan, but because he also had the Senju share of genes, he had Rinnegan from the get go, and he didn't have Sharingan, per the Onoki and Kurotsuchi argument I presented above. Indra had Sharingan, and the spiral eye was his Mangekyō. Only if he had acquired his brother's cell, a la Madara and Hashirama, he could have obtained the same dōjutsu as Hagoromo. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:49, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

Isn't that basically what I covered? I never said it was impossible, just that there was no guarantee that either of these things were true. While Hagoromo could very well have the genes to create the Sharingan, it doesn't mean he absolutely awakened it and Indra could have used the Madara method to gain the Rinnegan, but it's because of the reasonable doubt to either case that we're not gonna list either as users of the other and go with the idea that the weird spiral thingy is Indra's MS. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 20:06, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

Forgive me, I derped reading the "no guarantee that" part. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:32, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

No worries man, was just beginning to think I'd lost it and somehow misinterpreted something. It does get confusing having to tread the same ground in convos all the time. I mean didn't this topic start about listing Indra's spiral eye thing as an Mangekyou Sharingan and somehow end up as a debate about whether Hagoromo had Sharingan? Anyway, I guess the other topics aside, if we're all in agreement the spiral is Indra's Mangekyou Sharingan we can close the book on this convo and take the thoughts of genetics and Naruto elsewhere. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 23:15, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

I know I am a bit late to this party, but if my memory serves me correctly, and it may not as it has been a while -- but wouldn't the kekkei touta argument be fallacious considering Onoki had to be taught it, and it wasn't expressively stated to be inherited? I mean, even our own page has a trivia stating that, as well as suggesting it isn't even genetic in the first place. And since it would be incorrect, the entire argument falls apart. And by following any rules of logic, if Rinnegan is solely the pinnacle of Sharingan, it stands to reason in order to just HAVE it, one requires Sharingan to acquire Rinnegan. Otherwise, you're suggesting they're two different doujutsus just named the same. So to put it more plainly, if A is required for B (in the sense of one is a later stage), A representing Sharingan and B representing Rinnegan, then how can someone suddenly have B without having A (when the sole purpose is B being an advanced A)? If you agree that The Sage doesn't have it, then why would the logic of Sharingan > Rinnegan have any value?--Taynio (talk) 05:09, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Offtopic, looks like my Byakugan theory above was correct "stands proudly"--Elveonora (talk) 12:36, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

infobox
On my side it shows that Indra is brother of himself.--Elveonora (talk) 14:04, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Same. ~IndxcvNovelist (talk 14:07, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Something broke somewhere, its doing the same. It also isn't showing Asura anywhere.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 15:54, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd be surprised if everything was showing up as it should, considering how many times both brothers' articles were moved in the last couple days. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:21, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

Proper Verbage
In the Trivia section, it is stated that the conflict between Indra and Asura is based on Hindu Religion; It should say that it is based on Hindu Mythology. Unlike western Religions--where mythology and religion are closely tied together--Indic Religions have a strong divide between Mythology and Religion. The stories in Hindu Mythology are intended to be read as allegories, or parables that teach lessons, similar to Aesop's fables. The war between Devas and Asuras only exists in the mythological aspect of Hindu culture, It is not part of the Hindu religion. NTRJ (talk) 15:03, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Thank you for pointing that out.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:27, April 2, 2014 (UTC)