Talk:Infinite Tsukuyomi

Picture
I think a depiction of the tabula rasa genjutsu from the referenced episode would be better than the moon-eye-thing, mh? Seelentau 愛議 11:47, March 18, 2014 (UTC)


 * I have a bigger question. When did this get an article back? And sure the tablet is fine I guess.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:26, March 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * A few hours ago. I asked about it on Tsukuyomi's talk page, but no one really bothered to answer, so I decided to act on my own, since this technique obviously deserves its own article. And no, not the tablet, the white space with Madara and Obito in it. That's the Mugen Tsukuyomi, as stated by Madara himself. Seelentau 愛議 13:33, March 18, 2014 (UTC)


 * Tablet, that empty space Madara got young in, whatever. Same thing. Use that that.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:48, March 18, 2014 (UTC)

"parent jutsu: tsukuyomi"
Again guys, what I've been saying for a while. Just because both are called Tsukuyomi doesn't mean they are related. Because it would mean that users of this are users of MS's Tsukuyomi by default, yet Obito has only Kamui to our knowledge. Not to mention Madara cast this just with an ordinary Sharingan.--Elveonora (talk) 13:46, March 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Seelentau 愛議 14:07, March 18, 2014 (UTC)

tailed beast skill?
It does require either the ten-tails or its chakra. (Sidenote: is Kaguya a pseudo-jinchuuriki?) MangekyoSasuke (talk) 07:57, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * She is also a user I suppose and the technique's creator.--Elveonora (talk) 12:31, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

confused
About how much different this technique is compared to what was said and shown earlier by Madara and done by Obito in the movie... @Seel, explanation? ._. I knew it was matrix no jutsu, but this is now straight copied from there--Elveonora (talk) 12:32, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * There's no difference. What Madara showed to Obito is Mugen Tsukuyomi. It's a Sharingan jutsu, not a Mangekyō Sharingan jutsu. The user has a white world in which he captures mankind and creates a world for them. Seelentau 愛議 12:38, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * But Obito nor Naruto and Sakura were sucked by an angry tree--Elveonora (talk) 12:54, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Indeed. So? It's not a necessity to cast Mugen Tsukuyomi. Seelentau 愛議 13:20, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Perhaps. But the restoration of Shinju's fruit seem to be the ulterior motive behind the technique rather than what Madara was preaching about true peace. Also since Kaguya came up with that, does that mean she wanted to eat a second fruit?--Elveonora (talk) 13:28, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Who knows~ Seelentau 愛議 13:30, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * The unspoken implication of her actions is that she would have had her own sons live inside of cocoons or what nasty stuff and suck their chakras. What a sense of motherly love she had.--Elveonora (talk) 13:45, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * I believe that is more speculation about the fruit, that dragging everyone into the technique while it feeds on their chakra could possibly create a new fruit. --Gojita (talk) 15:06, April 2, 2014 (UTC)Gojita

Limited Tsukuyomi
Okay. I'm just going to flat out say no on Madara having used a "Limited Tsukuyomi". He used a small scale Infinite Tsukuyomi. Limited Tsukuyomi, firstly, was a movie-only technique. Secondly, if the new chapter is to be believed, Kaguya used the Infinite Tsukuyomi despite the fact that her son wouldn't create the moon until close to his own death. The moon isn't a requirement unless it is to be used on a worldwide scale. As clearly shown by Madara, it can be used on individuals as well. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 05:01, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Indeed. The moon and the rooting of humans is optional. The Mugen Tsukuyomi is just the white world. Seelentau 愛議 08:03, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

Why Obito?
Why is Obito listed as a user? If its because he used the Limited Tsukuyomi, shouldn't he be listed as Movie-Only?--The Zeitgeist (talk) 20:17, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

Its because he was going to use it. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 20:20, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

Alright then.--The Zeitgeist (talk) 20:25, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

Clarification about the completion of the plan
"To trap every human being in this genjutsu, however, the Sharingan has to reflect onto the moon's surface using the eye of the Shinju. In order to do this, (with the exception of Kaguya) one must become its jinchūriki while possessing the power of the Rinnegan. Upon getting close to the moon within the sky, the jinchūriki can remove the natural plating from their forehead to manifest a third eye in the form of the Shinju's Sharingan."

I think that this part of the article could led to misunderstandings and should be fixed: apparently seems indicate that the only way to complete the plan for the Jinchuuriki of the Juubi is to get the Shinju's Sharingan through a third eye, but actually this is just a possible way. The real key element of the plan is to create a connection between the user of the genjutsu and the Shinju's sharingan, so to amplify the power and the range of the illusion: actually the "ordinary" way for achieving it should be the revival of the Shinjuu in his Tree shape, through the revival of the Juubi tamed by his Jinchuuriki. Like stated by Madara during Obito's battle, the blossom of the flower on the top of the Shinjuu would have revealed his 9 tomoe Sharingan's eye that, reflected on the moon, would have allowed to the Jinchuuriki to cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi.

After the cut of the tree and the absorption of it, we should think that Madara decided to go with this second way to cast the genjutsu (to allow the birth of the Shinju's eye in his forehand), just because the previous one of Obito is now impossible to achieve.

PS: I also thought that maybe Madara can develope the Shinju's eye in his forehand because now the God Tree is inside him, but of course this is just complete speculation not supported by the words of the Uchiha in the last chapter.--JK88 (talk) 10:19, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * It was in him all along tho.--Elveonora (talk) 10:53, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

dunno
Isn't the Shinju also a user, considering Obito planned to use its eye to cast the technique?--Elveonora (talk) 10:36, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

Bump--Elveonora (talk) 17:01, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

You said yourself, Obito was going to use it through the Shinju. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:22, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * So does that mean yes or no? Who is the one in use in this case isn't relevant. I'm considering the Shinju to be also a user because its eye is required for the technique--Elveonora (talk) 18:33, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Before, I'd have agreed, but now I'm on the fence. Madara became the host as well, but he only cast the IT after acquiring both Rinnegan to get the eye. Kaguya wasn't a jinchūriki, but she was able to cast it as well. Obito seems to be somewhere in the middle, being the host like Madara, but not having the third eye. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:47, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * So Infinite Tsukuyomi can be used by:


 * eating magical fruit = third eye
 * having both Rinnegan eyes and approaching the moon = third eye
 * using the Shinju's eye which looks just the same

I think from this we can conclude that:
 * Kaguya and Shinju's eye are the same, this one is obvious, since she got it from its fruit
 * Madara and Kaguya's eye are the same, hence forehead-eye
 * The three therefore have the same eye

Since they are the same, how the eye is attained is irrelevant, or not? Point being, it's within the Shinju's powers to use Infinite Tsukuyomi too :)--Elveonora (talk) 20:25, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

How'd Kaguya...?
How'd Kaguya use this technique exactly? I know she was stated to have attached people to the Shinju (God Tree), but wasn't the Shinju transformed into the Juubi (Ten-Tails) at the time? Also, she wasn't the Jinchuriki of either, so how could she use the Shinju form to use the technique? Skarrj (talk) 16:55, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? ...--Elveonora (talk) 17:39, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * The attaching of people is not caused by this technique. The tree was a tree at that time and she had its powers. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:51, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * OK, I see. I was under the impression that the Shinju transformed soon after to retrieve its chakra, so the fact that Kaguya could use it for the technique, while it was something that inherently disliked her seemed kind of implausible. But I guess it makes sense that there would've been time between it going from the God Tree to the vengeful Ten Tails. Skarrj (talk) 20:36, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * She never used it tho, just ate its fruit and cast the technique--Elveonora (talk) 21:28, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

Classification
I think sharingan KKG in classification must be replaced with rinnegan(sharinnegan) and added that justu tailed beast skill(becose oblivious without Shinju it`s impossible) Rage gtx (talk) 08:55, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm confused myself, if this is a Sharingan genjutsu, why do affected get Rinnegan eyes?--Elveonora (talk) 12:01, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Moreover tsukuyomi is a MS genjutsu how just sharingan user can able to cast it? And state it(classification) is now can be concluded that every uchiha with enough chakra can cast it. Rage gtx (talk) 12:18, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Infinite Tsukuyomi ain't Tsukuyomi tho--Elveonora (talk) 12:27, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Still does this two jutsu must have same relation as izanagi and CoAT? How more powerful jutsu(MT) can be casted with less powerful eyes(sharingan)? Rage gtx (talk) 12:36, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Obito's MS doesn't have Tsukuyomi, yet he almost cast it. Not to mention Kaguya's third eye was called a Sharingan not a Mangekyou Sharingan--Elveonora (talk) 12:46, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

Obito was casting it through tree eye(that what later appears in Madara forhead) not his MS, i presume. Maybe Rikudo did not see difference between rinnegan and sharingan(His son stated to recive his eye and that was sharingan) that can explain Susuke, Kaguya and Madara eyes issue(butstill it only my theory). But one for sure that sharingan pic must replaced with sharinnegan`s(as only eye that shown ability to cast that jutsu) just how it goes with MS for each user. Rage gtx (talk) 12:59, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya eye was never called Sharingan he just said she had Sharingan power because it has Sharingan-like abilities like Infinite Tsukuyomi and Sasukes Space-Time jutsu.She had same Rinnegan as Sasuke left eye and Madaras forehead eye. And Infinite Tsukuyomi is clearly Rinnegan jutsu victims have Rinnegan eyes. But 9 tomoe Rinnegan seems to have different abilities than regular one.--Oranjelo100 (talk) 14:21, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm done explaining this difference to people, go look it up properly. Kaguya's third eye is still a Sharingan, I don't know why people affected have the Rinnegan. I do have a possible explanation, but this isn't the place for speculation. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:22, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

Just because some people want it to be Sharingan it doesn't make it true. Sasuke has identical eye and its called Rinnegan, Kaguya eye was never called Sharingan Hogoromo just said she had Sharingan power which makes sense because 9 tomoe Rinnegan displayed Sharingan-like abilities(Infinite Tsukuyomi and Sasukes Space-Time jutsu) and Infinite Tsukuyomi is clearly Rinnegan jutsu victims have Rinnegan in eyes.--Oranjelo100 (talk) 13:32, May 22, 2014 (UTC)


 * I never was arguing about type of the eye(be it sharingan or rinnegan) but we seen in manga that only eye that can able to cast MT has 9 tomoe(in every case: Kaguya, Madara and Obito), so replace pic. And add tailed beast skill becose jutsu was about to cast through Obito tailed beast mode, Madara gained eye afeter becoming juubi jinchuuriki, and all akatsuki was after tailed beast becose without Shinju to cast jutsu imbossible period. Rage gtx (talk) 05:45, May 22, 2014 (UTC)

It is a Sharingan Jutsu because Madara used it with the Sharingan. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:40, May 22, 2014 (UTC)

Some people are stubborn as hell Madara third eye is Rinnegan so he used it with Rinnegan. Chapter 678 confirm its Rinnegan so this little edit warring can stop.
 * And you may can it. Your attitude, while cute, isn't needed so take it elsewhere. The whole point of the "edit war" was to wait for further confirmation and we have it now, though I would prefer we wait for the raw to make absolutely certain. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 05:43, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

Its confirmed its Rinnegan jutsu and now some people want to push it as Rinnegan/Sharingan jutsu which is false tell me exact chapter where Obito supposedly said its Sharingan jutsu and Madara clearly said it require Rinnegan and Moon nothing about Sharingan, Sasuke said its cast with Rinnegan nothing about Sharingan either. Even if Obito said something like that its contradicted by other characters and later events and like I said tell me chapter--Oranjelo100 (talk) 07:02, May 28, 2014 (UTC) So if its confirmed why there still Sharingan in the box and still you didn't tell which chapter prove its Sharingan jutsu.
 * Madara used it with the Sharingan, as I said above. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:27, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Although Madara's third eye has been stated to be a Rinnegan now. Kaguya's third eye is unlikely to be anything else than his, so she had a Rinnegan too. Therefore if you want to get technical, the first usage of Infinite Tsukuyomi ever was with a Rinnegan. Although, it can seemingly be cast with a Sharingan too, only if the whole Obito demonstration thing indeed was Infinite Tsukuyomi... the dialogue suggested as such, although it's kinda questionable now, isn't it?--Elveonora (talk) 12:39, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * It is, yes. But as I said somewhere else, every Rinnegan is a part of the Sharingan dōjutsu line, so whatever Kaguya's eye was called, it's still a Sharingan. We should change the icon from a three tomoe to a six or nine tomoe eye, I think. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:52, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

More images
Maybe we should use one more image to show the actual technique in more detail, like Kaguya's weird projection on the sky or somebody with Rinnegan eyes. Norleon (talk) 12:52, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

Zetsu's weren't affected
Trivia worthy? Seeing as they have brains and have never been stated to not be affected by genjutsu. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 14:16, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * We've actually seen one be affected by Sasuke's genjutsu, so it seems this technique is an exception.--BeyondRed (talk) 14:25, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think it worth mention especially when Sasuke was able to cast genjutsu(which means this case is unique)Rage gtx (talk) 14:28, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * It could be a simple as teh fact that they simply weren't targeted. Why would he target his own henchmen?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:55, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * You overestimate the scope of Madara's power. Do you believe he can control the Infinite Tsukuyomi to a degree where he can actively avoid certain individuals? It was stated in numerous places that the Infinite Tsukuyomi targets every living thing, but if Madara had to actively control it then it would be essentially impossible to do so. Atrix471 (talk) 17:11, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * And you don't know that, so drop it. We know that they weren't affected by the Infinite Tsukuyomi. We don't know why or if they ever will, so there is no point in speculating or arguing about it here. Mention it and leave it be until (if it ever happens) its explained further. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 20:39, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

Character Status
Shouldn't everyone who is under the affects of Infinite Tsukuyumi have their status as "Incapacitated"? Steveo920, 9:04, May 22, 2014


 * While I do agree on taking that step, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of known characters out there (sorting out the deceased and still living), and we'd be including non-canon characters such as Ranmaru, Shizuka, Amaru, Hikaru Tsuki, Shion, and so many more (since they are still part of the world). And what if Team 7 breaks the genjutsu by defeating Madara/destroying the moon, as soon as next chapter? Maybe wait for the next chapter at least. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 06:12, May 25, 2014 (UTC)

I don't get it?
So if there was no moon till the sealing on the ten tails body, then how the hell did Madara know it was needed for this jutsu and how did Kaguya use it, plus all the other plot holes? Arrancar79 (talk) 03:33, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Unless Hagoromo had a crystal ball, Kaguya used it after Hagoromo made the moon? ._.--Elveonora (talk) 13:22, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Uh, chapter 671? Hagoromo said she used her dōjutsu. Whatever that means, however that works, that's how. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:44, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, I suppose people assume that since Madara got the third eye by approaching the moon, the same had to be true for Kaguya. And that surely makes sense, otherwise Hagoromo wouldn't have known that approaching the moon results in third eye, would he?--Elveonora (talk) 20:34, May 24, 2014 (UTC)

Difference with Tsukuyomi
"...the user can create an empty dimension under their control, which can be then filled with contents of his or her desire". How is this too much different with the original Tsukuyomi, which creates an illusion world where Itachi has absolute control of the victim's perception of reality? Both basically trap the victim in an illusory world that they can manipulate the contents as they please, with the duration and required chakra being the only known issues. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 07:20, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * So what I want to say is, should we compare this to the original Tsukuyomi, and make the obvious comparisons and similarities in the trivia? Yatanogarasu (Talk) 07:23, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Probably. Madara's technique is just more effective, it can trap more people and do other things. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:57, May 24, 2014 (UTC)

Itachi a User
Didn't Itachi used this to create a replay of the past during his battle against Sasuke, when he showed how Madara and Izuna acquired their Mangekyo Sharingan, and then again after incapacitating Kabuto, showing the last moments Itachi killing their parents? Yatanogarasu (Talk) 07:20, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Infinite Tsukuyomi is completely different from any Genjutsu and requires the Shinju's power. Itachi may have been a genjutsu master, but the best he could do was alter the perception of time with his Tsukuyomi, which is completely unrelated to the Infinite Tsukuyomi.--JOA20 (talk) 08:18, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * But Madara was able to perform it for Obito as a demonstration of sorts, before the Shinju was reborn. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 09:22, May 24, 2014 (UTC)

The difference is that Madara's world was a white world in his control, while Itachi showed Sasuke a movie, so to speak. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:55, May 24, 2014 (UTC)

@Yatan, The Gedo Mazo is Shinju which Madara was still connected to--Elveonora (talk) 13:20, May 24, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah I guess, Gedo being a part of the Shinju. But since Madara and Itachi created a genjutsu via a normal Sharingan, would (at least by Madara's case) Infinite Tsukuyomi be a derivative of Genjutsu: Sharingan? Yatanogarasu (Talk) 16:53, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * No.--Elveonora (talk) 17:50, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, Itachi and Madara aside, now I just wanna say Infinite Tsukuyomi's parent jutsu is Genjutsu: Sharingan, as both requires eye contact via Sharingan to utilize an illusion of the user's control. Infinite Tsukuyomi just takes it to a higher level than the basic Genjutsu: Sharingan. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 18:47, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * They are completely unrelated. Sharingan is capable of replaying memories.--Elveonora (talk) 18:56, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Kakashi used Genjutsu: Sharingan to make a false memory on two Root Anbu to allow Naruto to slip out of the village. That's not memory replaying. Similar to how Infinite Tsukuyomi, only far less powerful and short-ranged. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 19:07, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * By your logic all visual genjutsu is infinite tsukuyomi, because non-sharingan ones can do just the same--Elveonora (talk) 20:30, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, so in layman's term, Infinite Tsukuyomi creates a genjutsu of whatever the user desires for infinite periods so long as the user wants, while other genjutsu (non-Sharingan) is specific in creating one particular effect/vision. "Genjutsu: Sharingan" allows the user to create whatever illusion of whatever the user wants, but only for a brief moment/less than Infinite Tsukuyomi. Am I right? Yatanogarasu (Talk) 05:54, May 25, 2014 (UTC)

The IT is a Genjutsu which can only be used with the power of the Shinju or at least its empty shell. Unlike every other Genjutsu, it actually creates a world for the victim where it can interact with others and isn't bound by the caster's will. • Seelentau 愛 議 08:11, May 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah. The difference is that ordinary genjutsu affects an individual, while Infinite Tsukuyomi traps everyone within the same illusion. Kinda like all people sharing the same dream--Elveonora (talk) 11:04, May 25, 2014 (UTC)

It seems like the genjutsu isn't even shared by everyone, road to ninja was a fraud by Kishi T_T--Elveonora (talk) 12:44, May 28, 2014 (UTC)


 * The Limited Tsukuyomi was cast on Naruto and Sakura to send them to the same place. Madara's Infinite Tsukuyomi was more or less, cast on separately to give everyone their own dream.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:09, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

did i miss something?
hashirama mentioned that falling into the mugen tsukuyomi is the same as dying, but after seeing it firsthand i have to ask exactly what part of it is "the same as dying"?--Caseather (talk) 08:12, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's the part where you don't exist as a conscious being in this world anymore, where you're not able to interact with the world anymore and bound in an endless dream, not even knowing that you're in this dream. • Seelentau 愛 議 09:08, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

genjutsu wold of the infinite tsukuyomi
we must add information about the different genjutsu wold for different character like we have see in the last chapiter?? hinata with naruto on a date, kiba hokage gaara still a child with his family and naruto?? --Nitram86 (talk) 11:20, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

Mechanics
This might be troublesome. Ok, 678 made it clear that this is a Rinnegan genjutsu. Based on that, I believe that what old Madara showed Obito is not IT. I now believe that to be just Genjutsu: Sharingan, much like Itachi did with Sasuke when they fought, and he showed Madara's history via genjutsu. On them having similar effects, I believe that's a case jutsu homology if you can call it like that. You can use many different jutsu to make explosions, that doesn't mean they're the same for example. Thoughts? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:25, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Madara said that it's Mugen Tsukuyomi back then, didn't he? • Seelentau 愛 議 21:29, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Madara implied he was able to create the white space and manipulate it because he was connected to the Demonic Statue, so even if it isn't the same as the actual "Infinite Tsukuyomi", it isn't just regular genjutsu either. Basically, it's the canon equivalent of "Limited Tsukuyomi", except we don't have a proper name for it other than.--BeyondRed (talk) 21:36, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * No. He never did. He just said that was how the Genjutsu would work. Obito is the one who said he'd use the Sharingan to cast the IT. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:38, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * When you say Obito did that, you mean when he declared the ninja war on the Kage right? Unless I'm mistaken, he only said he'd use the moon to reflect his eye or his eye power to cast it. At the time, he only had the Sharingan, so we assumed it was a Sharingan genjutsu. About being connected to the statue, I think that's supposed to be a stand-in for the Ten-Tails. Madara didn't have the beast, and didn't have the actual eye necessary for the genjutsu (the forehead one), so he used a poor-man's version of the technique. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:08, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * I could've sworn he said he'd reflect his Sharingan on the moon, but you may be right. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 23:21, May 28, 2014 (UTC)