Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-142748-20150410212019/@comment-142748-20150413071816

Trappedinmygenjutsu wrote: In the last battle when he was: Blind and dying of terminal illness, Itachi was able to use all of his mangekyo Sharingan techniques. He used Tsukuyomi early on in the fight and it barely fazed him, he later proceeded to use ameterasu which ended up catching most of mountain area on fire. He later used Susanoo when Sasuke stated that Itachi was out of chakra. Itachi might not have chakra reserves to the scale of Hashirama but he definetely has enough chakra in order to complete the scenarios that I previously mentioned. Even when he was healthy in Part I, Itachi couldn't spam his Mangekyo Sharingan. He has only one usage before he has to recover since it takes up 30% of his chakra to use.

Sasuke said he was nearly out of chakra, not fully depleted.

Oh and one more thing: instead of assuming Itachi gets so much stronger healthy, just use his performance and judge it next to Hashirama's. Does any of his feats in any of his fights even approach those of Hashirama's, yes or no? Cause otherwise you're practically using a fanon version of Itachi. There is nothing that Hashirama can realistically do in scenario 1 except by being sealed. Tsunade, an inferior medical ninja to Hashirama by Madara's own statements, was able to heal the damage of Tsukuyuomi by waving her hand. Why wouldn't Hashirama be able to do the same thing to himself considering he's a superior medic?

And no, if Itachi is suffering a backlash from his Tsukuyomi, he's not going to automatically be able to manifest his Susanoo. And given his Susanoo levels up really slowly, he can't instantly form the stage where Totsuka Sword appears, leaving him vulnerable.

Your scenario is a disservice to both him and Hashirama. During scenario 2, Utakata is a move in Itachi's arsenal that you are just trying to pretend that it doesn't exist. It does not need to completely stop Hashirama (I wouldn't expect it to do so) but it only needs to take a few seconds of Hashirama's time in order to give Itachi an opening to use his Totsuka blade. It wouldn't even be a few seconds. Itachi's Susanoo would need a minute to form its Totsuka Blade, giving Hashirama enough time to break out of Ukataka. If Naruto could resist it, Hashirama can easily break it without missing a beat. Scenario 3 will leave Itachi very tired, but he only used Ameterasu once in order to burn the mokuton jutsu and then he pretends to summon Susanoo for a second in order to con Hashirama into thinking he has landed a critical blow. Itachi can than use the Totsuka blade in order to finish the fight. That one Amaterasu usage would leave Itachi open. Remember how he acts after Amaterasu is used? He's barely able to stand afterwards! And his Amaterasu is a far lower scale than Hashirama's Mokuton, so it wouldn't do much help at all. And you said he uses Kage Bushin no Jutsu, correct? Well good bye Susano'o, that's off Itachi's table since Kage Bushins take half the chakra of the user to create. Its why only one or two can be created by most ninja, remember?

Your scenario completely ignores that drain. Scenario 4. Hashirama probably doesn't need to know everything about Itachi, but that example was used to demonstrate how knowledge about the opponent's techniques completely turns the tide of battle. In this battle a key factor is that Hashirama isn't like Itachi's other opponents who have a great understanding of Itachi's abilities which allows them to stay in the fight for a relatively long amount of time. The second Shinsusenju comes out, its over. Itachi has no counter to it, none of his attacks can even scratch it, and Totsuka can't even reach into the clouds which is Shinsusenju's height (its taller than fricking mountains). And here's the thing, even Hashirama's Mokujin or Mokuton Ryu are too much for Itachi. Both dwarf his Susano'o, one can absorb it in a snap and since Mokujin's physical strength is equal to Complete Body - Susanoo, a single punch will wreck Itachi's Susanoo worse than Kirin did.

There's literally no way Itachi can win against Sage Mode Hashirama, much less Base Hashirama unless Hashirama is heavily restricted. You're inflating Itachi's abilities to the point where you might as well give him Complete Body - Susanoo, since after all, he died before his 'true' power was unleashed huh?

Shadowflame55555 wrote: Actually, Itachi did spam Mangekyo techniques. In the Sasuke fight he used Shadow Clones, Tsukuyomi, Fire Jutsus, Amaterasu (multiple times) and then used Susano'o to defeat Orochimaru and block Sasuke's Kirin. Sure, he died in the end, but in a full on fight, like one against Hashirama would be, he can spam Mangekyo techniques for one battle. No, he didn't. He actually didn't use any Shadow Clones in the fight-that was within Itachi's Tsukuyomi. The backlash of Tsukuyomi made Itachi weaker. Itachi's Katons take a minimal amount of chakra. He used Amaterasu twice in quick succession, nearly draining him entirely. ANd his usage of Susanoo DID kill him. And no, Kirin wasn't blocked by Itachi's Susanoo, if it did, it'd still be standing and he'd have retained his Akatsuki cloak and his face wouldn't be burned. Also another point you bring up is that would Itachi have enough time to bring up Totsuka if he even did end up getting Hashi in genjutsu. You also implied that Sasuke's Kirin tanked Itachi's full Susano'o with Yata Mirror. In this situation, Itachi would have had to bring Susano'o up in 0.001 seconds. Do you think that it would take the Totsuka blade 3000 times longer to strike than it did to bring up the entire susano'o? Yata Mirror manifests at a lower stage of Susanooo (its skinned stag), while Totsuka manifests at the armored phase. We saw how slowly Itachi manifests his Susanoo even as an Edo Tensei when he has no stamina issues.

Hashirama is also able to break Itachi's genjutsu. He has the two defenses that Jiraiya talked about, and is an accomplished genjutsu user himself.

I do think Hashirama could win this fight, especially if he used that pollen jutsu, but once again, you seem to be adamant on ridiculing Itachi in all of your arguments. I'm not ridiculing Itachi. I'm putting him at the level that the manga and databooks had him. Itachi's abilities, as you, racni, and TrappedInMyGenjutsu keep putting are heavily inflated from his actual showing.

Edit: I'm done for the night. I have to clear my head.