Talk:Kaguya Ōtsutsuki

removal of Sharingan
I insist on it. She has a Rinnegan, not a Sharingan.--Elveonora (talk) 19:30, June 8, 2014 (UTC)


 * Well I foresee this getting stupid real fast. But I'm just gonna go with...nah...--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 19:41, June 8, 2014 (UTC)

...I thought it was stated she had the power of the Sharingan... *Sigh* This probably will get stupid real fast... WindStar7125 (talk) 20:36, June 8, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125
 * Power of Sharingan =/= Sharingan. Power of Sharingan refers to visual genjutsu. The third eye was directly called a Rinnegan. While for Hagoromo and others, Infinite Tsukuyomi is a Sharingan technique, originally it was a Rinnegan technique, since there was no Sharingan as a separate doujutsu until it appeared with Indra.--Elveonora (talk) 20:45, June 8, 2014 (UTC)

To possess the power of something means to actually possess it, how is this even an argument? How can you wield the power of something that you don't actually have, that's completely ludicrous. Even a pseudo-Jinchūriki, that has the power of a Bijū within them, actually has a fragment of that particular beast within them, even if it isn't the complete sentient beast. This ridiculous "Power of Sharingan =/= Sharingan" argument is completely idiotic. Furthermore, whether or not she literally has a physical Sharingan in her eyes or in her forehead is irrelevant, it isn't dependent on your interpretations. Kishi's chapter literally stated Kaguya possesses the power of Sharingan, Hagoromo directly stated she has that power, and therefore, it has to be listed that she wields a Sharingan. There is no room for interpretation, this wiki's job is to record what Kishi has confirmed directly through his manga. End of story. You can't dismiss that just because it doesn't fit with your own interpretation. --Silver-Haired Seireitou (talk) 01:43, June 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you, God, that there is someone else with lucidity around here. No, Elveonora, it will not be removed. Insist all you want. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:48, June 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Don't complain to me, complain to Kishimoto for vague wording. The third eye isn't a Sharingan, it's a Rinnegan with "Sharingan" power. Unless she is a time-traveler, she can't have something that came into existence a generation or two later. The third eye was called directly a Rinnegan, there's no room for "personal interpretation" and just because something appears idiotic to you two doesn't falsify it.--Elveonora (talk) 21:22, June 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not complaining to you. I'm not challenging Kishimoto, because he made it quite clear. You don't like it because, once again, it doesn't fit with your theory (this one being that, somehow, Indra was the originator of the Sharingan; which has no manga proof), but that isn't mine, this wikis, or Kishimoto's problems. Its yours. What I am telling you, however, is that it isn't being removed. So drop it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:34, June 9, 2014 (UTC)

Hagoromo or Indra and that's not even a theory but manga fact. Indra is the first known Sharingan wielder and Hagoromo most likely had it too, considering that recreating Hagoromo's Rinnegan still allows the usage of Sharingan, so in order for Sharingan to split, it had to be there in the first place.

First there was an egg and then chicken. The Sharingan didn't come from nowhere, it came from the Rinnegan. And Kaguya has the original Rinnegan, so she can't have a Sharingan.--Elveonora (talk) 21:44, June 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * *sigh* Your persistence is annoying, but I'll indulge you. Its not manga fact. There you are using your own theories to prove your original theory and then declaring it a manga fact. Do you think I was born yesterday, Elevonora? That perhaps I don't read the very manga that we're discussing? Nowhere in the manga is it stated or insinuated that Hagoromo, Indra, or even Kaguya herself, is the origin of the Sharingan. In fact, Kaguya having the Sharingan blows that theory out of the water. But, since its manga fact, I suppose you have a page number, right? A quote? Perhaps a databook reference or an interview from Kishimoto? Those would constitute a "manga fact", so I am very interested as to what you procured this "fact" from and would be more than willing to indulge your insanity if you could point me to the spot where it says anything you just claimed. I eagerly await your proof. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:52, June 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep up the good job at being ignorant. "Kaguya having the Sharingan blows that theory out of the water" she has none that's what the topic is about. Manga fact is that Indra is chronologically the first known Sharingan wielder, but go on and try to refute that as well. The task is up to you to disprove me, show me where Kaguya has a Sharingan. And no, power of Sharingan doesn't count, because the eye was called a Rinnegan. So unless she has another hole in the back of her head, she has only 1 Rinnegan and a pair of Byakugan--Elveonora (talk) 23:26, June 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * You can throw around insults all you like. It only detracts your credibility, which is almost zero as it already is. She has a Sharingan. That's what the manga says. You say its not, but you're neither Kishimoto, nor a credible source, so forgive me if I kindly dismiss your "evidence". To make matters more hilarious, you want to throw out an entire panel of the manga, which coveniently disproves all of the drivel you've given to me thus far (I'll quote you here, for any readers of this argument; "And no, power of Sharingan doesn't count[...]") And thirdly, to throw even more dirt on your argument, the eye was never called a Rinnegan. The Infinite Tsukuyomi was said, by Sasuke, to be "cast" by a Rinnegan, which merely insinuates the eye is a Rinnegan (not arguing that Madara's eye is a Rinnegan, but I'm pointing out the obvious hopeless fallacy in your argument). I have no burden of proof. Do you understand that? None. The manga is my proof. You have theories, none which can be supported, none of which have any merit on any article on this site, so until you come up with chapter, page, episode, databook, or interview, as a credible source, I will repeat this for the third (or is it fourth?) and final time. It. Will. Not. Be. Removed. Savvy? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:25, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * 9999th time, power of Sharingan =/= Sharingan and besides that there's no evidence at all. An instant noodle soup may have a chicken flavor but there's none in there. Attributing power of Sharingan to Kaguya merely points out that what a Sharingan can do is within her doujutsu prowess. The third eye was never stated to be Sharingan and as even you yourself refuse to refute (since you can't. because it's true, it would be hilarious to try) it was called a Rinnegan. So unless she shows up an additional eye socket wherever on her body with a Sharingan in there or Kishi draws an arrow pointing to the forehead with a "you are looking at a Sharingan dear reader" then no, she has an imaginary make-believe Sharingan at best. But if you seriously see it anywhere then my observatory skills must be inferior to yours or one of us is hallucinating or is in a very strong delusion--Elveonora (talk) 10:03, June 10, 2014 (UTC)

Where was Kaguya's eye called a Rinnegan, though? • Seelentau 愛 議 10:39, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Didn't Sasuke say that Infinite Tsukuyomi was cast from a Rinnegan? Assuming that Madara and Kaguya's third eyes are different doujutsu requires greater leap of faith than that they are the same. It's also a little paranoid in my opinion to assume as such--Elveonora (talk) 11:11, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, you're right, the raw confirmed it. In this case, Kaguya's eye is a Rinnegan which holds the power of the Sharingan. If we'd go by Hagoromo's words alone, I'd agree on her having a Sharingan, but Sasuke's words made it pretty clear that the eye is a Rinnegan. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:26, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * And on the basis of the eye being called a Rinnegan, not Sharrinegan, I'm for the removal of Sharingan from her article. Because at the end of the day, Rinnegan with Sharingan power is still a Rinnegan.--Elveonora (talk) 11:37, June 10, 2014 (UTC)

I'd like opinions of others on the reasoning above--Elveonora (talk) 20:11, June 10, 2014 (UTC)

While I know a discussion on this topic is necessary, I still believe that it is getting ridiculous and bothersome. Of course the Sharingan should be removed from Kaguya's page. Power of the Sharingan does not warrant the fact the she possesses the actual eye. Just as the power of a tailed-beast does not equal being the jinchuriki. With the lack of information we had before, it's easy to see why the Sharingan was there before, but not now. Sasuke's comment was direct, and straight to the point. The Rinnegan casts IFN. Tsuk. Point-blank period. There's no argument against it. However, I do recall Obito saying something about the power of the Sharingan can be used to cast the technique somewhere in some discussion, but even then, characters have been proven wrong on many of historical accounts due to recent revelations. Furthermore, I find it equally ridiculous that on Kaguya's page that the section is titled, "Sharingan and Rinnegan"(or flipped; w/e..). It's like we're calling it a Sharrinnegan. Remove the Sharingan. Not enough evidence supporting the opposite argument. Agreed w/ Elveo and Seel. (ALSO- just thought that i'd add that I believe I had participated in this argument before, maybe an edit conflict i was unaware about?)--Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 20:37, June 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * @ Elve: No you don't. You've made it quite clear that the only opinions you're interested in hearing are those that agree with your own. Which, right now, amount to maybe, possibly Seel (I can never tell) and Koto, who seems to just be jumping off the same cliff as the rest of the "power of"=/=eye itself insanity. A Rinnegan that "has the power of the Sharingan"? Have you jumped off a mental cliff, Seel? Madara has the "power of the Sharingan"... as a Sharingan. His evolves into a Rinnegan, which Kabuto said was a natural progression. For those of you not savvy with scientific terms that means the Sharingan is the base, the root, the origin, and it evolves into a Rinnegan. The problem in Elve's statement is that he believes that the Rinnegan is the root and it descended into a Sharingan, but that contradicts manga testimony. How is it that you, and Elveonora over here, seem to forget that the Sharingan is the root of that dōjutsu? She has a Sharingan. Whether or not she ever uses it, or just prefers to use her Rinnegan instead, I don't know, and I couldn't give a flying horses shit either way. She has a Sharingan and, according to Hagoromo, used its power to control others. That's right out of the fucking manga. Questions? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 20:37, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry Fox-Boss. you're wrong on this one. In Madara's case, and anyone following the lifespan of the sage, the Sharingan can "evolve" into a Rinnegan. The Rinnegan came first and devolved into a Sharingan. And by reuniting the "body and chakra(his sons) of the sage can it "evolve" back into the Rinnegan. That's been explained to us already. You're only going by one side of the history explained within the manga. --Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 20:42, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Foxie, Sharingan evolves backwards into Hagoromo's purple Rinnegan, but not the red Rinnegan. The red Rinnegan was there before the purple one, so obviously the Rinnegan was there first irrefutably, considering the progenitor of the Narutoverse has a Rinnegan. Unless you believe a God time-traveled into the future and took Hashirama's cells to evolve his Sharingan into a Rinnegan or something--Elveonora (talk) 20:48, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Both of you: And that has, and let me be very clear here, ZERO manga basis. Kabuto said that, genetically speaking, the Rinnegan is the natural progression of the Sharingan. That means, as far as genes go, the Sharingan comes first, and advances into a Rinnegan. That's what the manga says. Hagoromo also notes that his mother has a Sharingan. Yes, she has a Sharingan. Point to me where it says the Rinnegan devolved into a Sharingan? Hm? You can't because it doesn't exist. However, I can point you to where it says the Sharingan evolves into a Rinnegan. Edit: The next time you use that Hashirama argument, Elveonora, I will public ally laugh in your face. Hagoromo debunked that myth. The Sage's chakra (which can be mimicked by mixing Asura and Indra's, which is what Madara did) is what evolves a Sharingan into a Rinnegan. Also manga fact. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 20:48, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Fox-Boss, Funny how you quote a character who regards that statement as a theory created by he and Orochimaru. And also, yes, look at Indra who was said to have the devolved power of his father.--Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 20:52, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * "The Sage's chakra which can be mimicked by mixing Asura and Indra's, which is what Madara did is what evolves a Sharingan into a Rinnegan" Hagoromo's Rinnegan was split into Indra's Sharingan and whatever Ashura inherited, therefore yes, Rinnegan devolved into Sharingan--Elveonora (talk) 20:54, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * No. It didn't. Once again, twisting things for your psychotic fan fictional delusions. Kaguya had a Sharingan, but because her chakra is what gave births to the Sage's, she can also have a Rinnegan. The Sage would also then have a Sharingan, but, because he obviously wields his own chakra, it evolved into a Rinnegan. Indra does not posses the full power of the Sage (as that requires Asura's chakra as well), so his Sharingan is not capable of evolving into a Rinnegan. End of argument. Kabuto and Orochimaru, Koto, came up with a theory, which Kabuto stated outright that Madara was living proof of. So, yeah, go take that to the bank. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 20:57, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wow Fox-Boss, your quote of Hagoromo:
 * "Hagoromo debunked that myth. The Sage's chakra (which can be mimicked by mixing Asura and Indra's, which is what Madara did) is what evolves a Sharingan into a Rinnegan[...]"


 * Pretty much blows everything you've said prior, out of this argument. That statment alone supports our claim as we repeatedly tell you of the d'evolution of the Rinnegan.
 * Furthermore, all of Kabuto's theory only proves that it can re-evolve not that it is mearly the base, or root, or even origin of the Rinnegan. --Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 21:00, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * There is no such thing as "de-evoltion". None. The term isn't even a word. It does not exist. In fact, in modern science, the term itself is considered a logical fallacy, so choke on that one. The Sharingan is the origin as hypothesized by Orochimaru and Kabuto, proven by Madara, and the Rinnegan is what results when the Sage's chakra (which first existed in Kaguya) influences and evolves the Sharingan into its final stage. That is what the manga says and that is what shall remain on this page, until/unless a databook proves it otherwise. I hope you both very clearly understand that. Its not getting removed. At all. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:03, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's a mistranslation. Kabuto said: "when you progress beyond the Sharingan, there lies the Rinnegan" Sharingan doesn't evolve into the Rinnegan, it is being restored back into it, since the Rinnegan came first.--Elveonora (talk) 21:08, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not a mistranslation. ^ Logical fallacy, not possible, and not a fact. Try again Elveonora. (Clarrification: Its not a mistranslation because "progress beyond", progress, meaning improvement, is virtually the same definition as evolution) ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:09, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Fox-Boss, broham, does Kishimoto even science? Please indulge me. Tell me how in the bluest of blue hells can Hagoromo's descendents have a Sharingan, IF it came before the dojutsu he himself wielded, the Rinnegan?(which according to Kabuto's theory and your argument states, was the evolution of the original) Just tell me how that makes any sense. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 21:11, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is. Ask Seelentau if you don't believe. And what is or isn't possible in terms of genetic in real world doesn't concern Kishimoto, the author of a fictional work.--Elveonora (talk) 21:13, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because if you use the organ in your skull and accept the fact, manga fact, that the Sharingan came first, and accept what the Sage said, that Madara's Sharingan evolved into a Rinnegan upon obtaining his (Asura and Indra's) chakra, then you must also accept that the Sage too began with a Sharingan, which, due to his unique chakra, evolved into its Rinnegan form. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:14, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * ALERT ALLERT. PURE SPECULATION!!--Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 21:15, June 10, 2014 (UTC)

Fun as this has been, its time to end this. The manga is very clear, as are its translations. I shall also be clear. So, hear me out you two. Whether you continue to debate this afterwards is your problem, but this will be my last post. Its not going to be removed. Period. End of discussion. Your dual crackpot theories, unfortunately, do not hold up to any translation the manga has given, and not even Seel's translations back up your theories. Good day to you both. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 21:17, June 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * It seems as though King Fox-Boss has spoken and in doing so, made his decree clear. All there is left to do is wait I suppose. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 21:22, June 10, 2014 (UTC)

Fox the last couple of replys you have posted is "Logical fallacy, not possible, and not a fact."

Fun fact Logical fallacy, not possible, and not possible to shoot fire from ones mouth (fire style), not possible to shoot water, etc from ones mouth. Nor is it possible to rise the dead (Edo Tensi/other jutsu used to being Madara back fully). Nor is it possible to have eyes that see 359 degrees, or see ones chakra.

Logic being used on a manga where people do non logical things on a daily basis and live is just dumb. Read what is wrote in the manga.

--Darkhunter-X (talk) 21:18, June 10, 2014 (UTC)

@Foxie, so now suddenly not even Seel's translations which you used to cringe so much after are relevant just because they do clash with your fanon version of canon, great.--Elveonora (talk) 21:21, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Seel's translations did not prove or deny anything. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Capish? Try again. Also, fanon Elveonora? Pot calling kettle black is it? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:23, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd really like to give you the benefit of the doubt and allow you to prove and defend your theory, so if you would be so nice, please do graphically demonstrate your understanding of the progression, for example like: "x > y" etc. for the last time and in full. Also I don't smoke pots--Elveonora (talk) 21:27, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Firstly, the basis of my position comes from Kabuto and Orochimaru's theory. To give you cookie points, I'll use your translation, which still works: "When you progress beyond the Sharingan, there lies the Rinnegan." Firstly, notice the wording. "Progress" means that the Rinnegan is an advancement. An upgrade. But to accept that it is an upgrade, you also have to accept that something existed to be upgraded. In this case, as was also stated by Kabuto in that very quote, the object being upgraded is the Sharingan. Also note that "progression" and "evolution" can be used interchangeably. The mean the same thing. Now let's go forward to what Hagoromo said. He said a lot, so I'll try to keep this brief and to the point. Firstly, he noted that Madara, who was the transmigrant of Indra, infused Asura's chakra into himself by infusing himself with Hashirama's cellular matter. The combination of Asura and Indra's chakra (which form the Sage's chakra) then awakened Madara's Rinnegan, confirming Kabuto's theory. Continuing forward, he notes that he feared that a descendant of Indra, who inherited his eyes (suggesting the Sage had a Sharingan at some point), would then try to obtain the Rinnegan again, which Madara succeeded in doing. Finally, we get to Kaguya. He claims that Kaguya controlled the entire world after creating peace using her power (note, word used is "dōryoku", meaning "eye power"). In the next page, while showing the contended third eye, Hagoromo states that aside from the Byakugan, his mother also, and now I'm quoting, "had the Sharingan's power. It was a gruesome eye power that she used on people." He's not speaking about the Infinite Tsukuyomi, he already talked about that in previous panels. He's specifically listing her powerful eye abilities here. That suggests that the earliest user of the Sharingan was Kaguya, who possessed the ability to make her Sharingan a Rinnegan, an ability Hagoromo inherited, and then this ability was diluted with Indra and Asura (which is genetically possible), and Indra lost his ability to evolve his Sharingan into a Rinnegan (without Asura's chakra). ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:44, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * How did Kaguya and Hagoromo evolve their Sharingan tho? Also note, in Kaguya's case, we have seen just the red one-eyed tomoed Rinnegan but no purple Rinnegans, while in Hagoromo's case only the purple Rinnegans but no third eye. Also this theory doesn't explain the Shinju. It had a Sharingan at some point and then evolved it into a Rinnegan? How? it's a merger of all chakra, it was all there in the first place--Elveonora (talk) 21:51, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * We don't even know the specifics of how Madara awakened the Rinnegan. It just happened spontaneously once the correct chakra was present. No reason to assume Kaguya and Hagoromo weren't the same. Red Rinnegan and normal Rinnegan could be genetic variation same as normal eye colors, or there could be a specific reason for the difference, we just know they're both Rinnegan. Also, this is just speculation, so don't take this as fact, but I don't think the Shinju originally had its eye. The mural version of the Shinju and the version of the Shinju with the eye look radically different. I think Kaguya is connected to this, but we'll have to wait for conformation. Again, most of this is just theory, but its the logical result of the stated manga facts. The manga just does not support the Rinnegan "deevolving" (even Science laughs at that term) into a Sharingan, which can then "re-evolve" (lolwut?) back into a Rinnegan. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 22:11, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * I lol @ my usage of laymen terms to get my point across. I get your point Fox-Boss. Actually, I always have. There's just some inconsistency with what you're saying. What you say implies Hagoromo had a sharingan himself. That's completely unheard of. And that all users of the Rinnegan, in truth, should be able to revert their eyes into a Sharingan. Hmm.. It would seem that time(and more historical flashbacks) will have to finally put an end to our debate, yes? -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 22:22, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * How is that unheard of? Three Sharingan users have been confirmed to also have the Rinnegan: Kaguya (yes her), Sasuke, and Madara. Two of those people, Sasuke and Madara, evolved their Sharingan into the Rinnegan. Also on two occassions now, Indra was said to have inherited Hagoromo's eyes. If Indra only got a Sharingan, then he didn't inherit Hagoromo's eyes. Unless of course, Hagoromo's eyes were, as Kabuto and Orochimaru suggested, the Sharingan is the original and Hagoromo also had them. Its true, we may never know if he did or not, but the manga does not support you, Elve, or Seel's suggestions. Not even in the slightest. Only time will tell, but right now, the evidence is against you three and more for the way the rest of us understand this. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 22:40, June 10, 2014 (UTC)

Ok TTF, you're saying all Rinnegan users who have naturally had or awakened the Rinnegan, no implants, have the Sharingan, yes? And you are assuming that Indra inherited Hagoromo's possible Sharingan as well? The two distinct powers of Hagoromo are the Rinnegan and the Six Paths Sage Technique (So Indra had a downgraded version of the Rinnegan, so Asura must've had a downgraded version of the SPST). Ok Foxie, what are you going to do now? Put the Sharingan in the Shinju and Hagoromo's infoboxes? WindStar7125 (talk) 23:48, June 10, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125

Devolution is a word, it is only used in science fiction these day because modern evolutionary theory makes it obsolete. It's a throwback term to old ideas of species "always advancing and becoming more complex" meaning a change that resulted in a "less complex" (value judgement on the part of the observer) form would be devolution. Kishi is no scientist and while I don't care to take a side as it will most likely become clear later, it seems the concept he's working from (to me) is more a matter of dilution. Kaguya ate the fruit of the tree gaining many powers from it, one being it's eye. Each generation after diluted the closeness to the source, the God Tree, dividing it's different aspects among the later generations. This isn't evolutionary biology really at all, it's an outside source being introduced into humanity. Every character has needed to bring the pieces back together to get their upgrade. I fell like it's thinking in the wrong direction to look at it with real world evolution. Obito needed the God Tree to use it's eye because he got close but didn't have all the pieces, Madara had enough to surpass SoSP and get Kaguya's Shar-rinnegan. IDK if that helps either theory but that's how I see Kishis' thinking. Arrancar79 (talk) 23:29, June 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * @Windstar: No. I'm not. Because neither were stated. Kaguya having the Sharingan was, though. What I am saying is that nothing is being removed. That's final, no if ands or buts, unless Kishimoto makes another 180 and changes his story again. As of now, its the pill you lot have to swallow because it is (whether you accept it or not) what the manga says. Savvy? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 00:10, June 11, 2014 (UTC)

Dude, calm down with that "That is period and final" stuff. Don't worry, in this case, I agree with you. It shouldn't be removed, all I'm commentating on is that you are implying that Hagoromo, at the least, has the Sharingan, considering that you keep reiterating that the Sharingan is the origin; it came before the Rinnegan did. WindStar7125 (talk) 00:20, June 11, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125


 * I'm perfectly calm. It just seems to me that certain people want their ludicrous theories placed in the articles, or want certain things removed just because they don't like that a particularly development took place. I don't care who does or doesn't like that Kaguya had a Sharingan, or whose fanfiction it ruins. Its what Kishi said and that's just how it is. Tough crap. I'm also not implying that anything I theorized was fact (e.g., Hagoromo having also had a Sharingan). Elveonora wanted to understand what I thought about the what the manga says, so I gave it to him, but in the end, manga statements are what matter the most and, regardless of what others think, she had a Sharingan. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 00:24, June 11, 2014 (UTC)

Well, you know I still believe Sasuke's Rinnegan and Kaguya/Shinju/Madara's eye are the same, they all can cast and deactivate the Infinite Tsukuyomi, and have been shown to have tomoe inconsistencies (not trying to change your mind, just an example), but I can't get you to believe that. Someone tell Elve and Koto that trying to change Foxie's mind is like using Ninjutsu against the Rinnegan and/or Truth-Seeking Balls. An unsuccessful and useless strategy. WindStar7125 (talk) 00:34, June 11, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125

No offense Foxie, but in order for your fanon interpretation to be true, the following assumptions have been made by you:
 * That the Shinju originally didn't have a Rinnegan but Kaguya had something to do with it, in order to fit your "upgrade" theory
 * You try to disprove fiction with science, laughable in itself
 * That Hagoromo was born with the Sharingan and upgraded it into a Rinnegan from some outside source

'''Sorry, your version contradicts the canon and therefore it's fanon. The Shinju is origin of ALL chakra, so there was nothing to "upgrade" meaning it had to have had the Rinnegan to begin with, therefore Rinnegan was first and the Sharingan came later on.'''--Elveonora (talk) 10:55, June 11, 2014 (UTC)

Bump, unless you give an answer to this, then you are as wrong as it gets.--Elveonora (talk) 11:26, June 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Firstly, I gave you an answer. The answer is that it isn't changing. Period. Secondly, you don't set the ultimatums around here. I don't know what makes you think you can, but you can't. The manga says Sharingan. I don't care how you interpret "power the Sharingan". I really don't. I meant that. So stop trying to make me care. The manga said something and we record it. Vent about it elsewhere if you're mad, call my interpretation "fanon"; again, I don't give a damn. The facts are recorded as stated by Kishimoto and until he changes them, this is the pill you will swallow. Now kindly move on to something more important. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 05:43, June 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Quoting myself here: "Yes, you're right, the raw confirmed it. In this case, Kaguya's eye is a Rinnegan which holds the power of the Sharingan. If we'd go by Hagoromo's words alone, I'd agree on her having a Sharingan, but Sasuke's words made it pretty clear that the eye is a Rinnegan.". • Seelentau 愛 議 10:07, June 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Let me guess, it's YOU who sets the ultimatums around here, dear me to have thought otherwise, what a nerve I have to dare disagreeing with you. Funny how the one who now talks all facts tried to "prove" an obvious fallacy of his with some fanon Sharingan upgrade nonsense. But if you are suddenly so keen on facts, then the fact is that the Shinju is the sum of ALL chakra. Source: manga written by Kishimoto Masashi. No upgrade business did happen. As the progenitor, the Shinju has a Rinnegan, therefore it came first and Sharingan later on. Now get over your ego please. The Shinju didn't steal Hashirama's cells to upgrade its Sharingan, I hope we can agree on that much. So even though your "theories" have been fun, it's time to stick with facts that you so much like to depend upon, but only once someone tries to prove you wrong.--Elveonora (talk) 12:18, June 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * By the Nine, you're still going. This discussion, I don't know if you've noticed, is over. I didn't set an ultimatum, I flat out told you how it was going to be. I suggest you get over it and move on because its not changing unless Kishimoto changes his mind with the volume release, which is unlikely. Edit: Sorry, Seel. I missed your response with Elveonora's wall of rant. A "Rinnegan that has the power of the Sharingan" is not what the manga said. Hagoromo made it quite plain that she used a Sharingan. Sasuke called the Infinite Tsukuyomi a Rinnegan genjutsu. Wouldn't be the first time (Madara and Sasuke) that a Sharingan user also used the Rinnegan. Going by your own policy, to quote you, to you, is that we record what we're told until told otherwise. Well, I was told Sharingan in one, and Rinnegan in another, so guess what? Both get put down unless Kishimoto decides to change it, and I very highly doubt he will. If Elve doesn't like it, well, he doesn't like a lot of things, but that is what is fact, so that is what is staying. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 02:50, June 15, 2014 (UTC)

What's a more direct statement to you: "power of Sharingan" or "Rinnegan genjutsu" ? To me the latter, since it describes that the genjutsu was cast with a Rinnegan. I may have agility of Jackie Chan, but I'm not Jackie Chan. X having an attribute of Y doesn't mean X=Y. Rinnegan with power of Sharingan =/= Sharingan hon.--Elveonora (talk) 13:47, June 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Let me make this very plain to you. A "Rinnegan with the power of the Sharingan" wasn't at all mentioned by the manga. That is how Seel interprets what was said, but that is not a direct translation. In one chapter, she was said to have the Sharingan. In another Madara was said to have cast IT with a Rinnegan. So I have pleasantly recorded both, as she has been stated to have one, and insinuated to have the other. Again, wouldn't be the first time, as we have—and I need you to actually count here—two Sharingan users who also are able to use the Rinnegan. Madara and Sasuke. Therefore it is entirely possible to have both. She was stated, again, to have one, and insinuaated, through Madara's use of IT, to have the other. So both are recorded. Did I make myself clear? If you don't get it after this, well, frankly, I couldn't give the slightest damn because, for the thousandth time, its staying in her infobox and on her page. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:14, June 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Aye aye ma'am--Elveonora (talk) 18:43, June 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ten Tailed Fox Wrote: Whether you continue to debate this afterwards is your problem, but this will be my last post.... Yep, that sure was your last post. The majority of the people in the community are such a joy to be around...--KirinNOTKarin98 (talk) 19:32, June 15, 2014 (UTC)

I think I was misunderstood. What the Sennin said was that Kaguya, except having the Byakugan, also had the power of the Sharingan. If we only take this sentence into account, Kaguya had in fact the Sharingan, since only the Sharingan has the Sharingan's power. Now, some chapters later, Sasuke describes the Infinite Tsukuyomi as a Rinnegan Genjutsu. Since Madara casted it with the eye on his forehead, the eye is a Rinnegan. Kaguya possessed the exact same eye, hence she possessed the Rinnegan. The Sennin's earlier statement is now retconned, but confirms that a user of the Tomoe Rinnegan retains the Sharingan powers. On a side note: If the Sennin meant that Kaguya possessed Byakugan and Sharingan, and not Byakugan and power of Sharingan, why did he add the "power of"? He could've simply said "Sharingan", as he simply said "Byakugan" and not "power of Byakugan". • Seelentau 愛 議 23:04, June 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Seel: So I suppose that Madara, who used Susanoo with his Rinnegan, no longer has the Sharingan, since his Rinnegan too possesses the "power of the Sharingan"? No retcon at all. Two Rinnegan users now, and that makes two out of three original Rinnegan users, have both the Sharingan and the Rinnegan and can use their Sharingan's power (Sasuke also used Susanoo) with the Rinnegan. What is so hard to believe that Kaguya's is any different? @Kirin: Your mastery of sarcasm is noted. Thank you for your contribution to this discussion. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 03:55, June 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * How does "having the power of the Sharingan" mean that one doesn't have the Sharingan anymore? You can't compare Madara and Sasuke to Kaguya, since both were shown with a Sharingan before. Kaguya wasn't. • Seelentau 愛 議 09:54, June 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * The difference dear Foxie is that we saw Madara and Sasuke upgrade their Sharingan into Rinnegan with Ashura and Hagoromo's chakras respectively. We didn't see Kaguya ever having a Sharingan nor upgrading anything. All we know is that she ate a fruit and got the Shinju's eye which is a Rinnegan.--Elveonora (talk) 13:01, June 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * On a very technical level, we don't even know that. We know Madara got his third eye from absorbing the Shinju tree, but he (apparently, basing solely off of Obito) didn't have it when he the just had the Ten-Tails. We have no idea if Kaguya's third eye is natural or a result of the Ten-Tails. In fact, we know practically nothing about this woman.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:39, June 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Only Kishimoto said Sharingan, Elve, so, again, both are staying. Sorry that bit of information bunches your thong, but that's how it is. Unless Kishimoto decides to change it in a tankoban we were told Sharingan in an earlier chapter and told Rinnegan in a recent chapter. We have seen nothing at all, unless you're secretly Kishimoto, in which case, I need to have a word with you. That is why your continued resistance is useless. Nothing changes until Kishi does it himself. Edit: @Seel: I most certainly can compare Sasuke and Madara to Kaguya, considering it is those two who set the standard. Kaguya was a character introduced, what, ten chapters ago? Not to mention we know virtually nothing about her, and yet, you're already willing to discard a vague statement from just ten or so chapters ago for a newer vague statement from the more recent chapters. So I'm wondering which logic you're going to go by? Hm? Standard or two vague statements that confirm she has both eyes? You can't just toss out precedent because you assume something about a character we know virtually nothing about. That would be an absurd suggestion. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:45, June 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Imagine this: When Hagoromo talked about Kaguya, he said she had the Rinnegan and the Byakugan. Later we're told she has the power of the Sharingan. What would've happened then, when both statements were switched? My guess is you would've said that she has the Rinnegan with the power of the Sharingan. Am I right? • Seelentau 愛 議 18:00, June 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not at all. I'd assume she was a similar case to Madara and Sasuke—you know, the two we've been show to also possess both powers for numerous chapters now—that she had a Sharingan that can become a Rinnegan. I mean, that would be more logical. No where anywhere was it stated that a Rinnegan exists with the "power of the Sharingan". Of course Rinnegan can use Sharingan powers, because, again, we've seen two Uchiha use their Sharingan abilities with their Rinnegan. So what would make you assume that she is suddenly different? You can't tell me you know she's different, because we know nothing about her eye other than what Hagoromo told us, which is that it is a Sharingan (because Sasuke was talking about Madara when he was mentioning the IT, not Kaguya). And you also can't tell me she was the first one with the eye, because, again, we don't know how she got the eye. She could've got it from eating the fruit, she could've been born with it, it could've been some freak accident; we don't know. She only just now became the jinchūriki, so we know that didn't cause it. And yet you presume to tell me that it makes more sense to you that she magically has a special Rinnegan that has the "power of a Sharingan" (which no one has ever possessed, been mention of possessing, or, for that matter, nothing has even stated such a "special" Rinnegan even exists to begin with), rather than just accept the precedent (and the direct translation of Hagoromo's words) set by Kishimoto, that she has a Sharingan as well. Logic. Edit: I might also add that I saw either you or Elve using the logic that the tomoe Rinnegan can use the "power of the Sharingan", proven when Sasuke cast Susanoo through it, which is completely blown out of the water by the fact that Madara also used his Susanoo through his Rinnegan rather than his Mangekyō Sharingan. All Rinnegan, shown thus far, can use Sharingan powers. That also makes sense, when you consider Kabuto confirmed his theory that the Rinnegan evolves from the Sharingan. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:06, June 16, 2014 (UTC)

Of course the Rinnegan can use Sharingan powers. I don't assume Kaguya is different, I say she's the same. She has the Rinnegan and can, just like Sasuke and Madara, use the Sharingan's powers with it. That's what the manga stated. I can only repeat myself over and over again, I don't need to prove you anything, the manga does that for me. You're the one interpreting things in it, not me. Also, Sasuke's eye with six Tomoe was called Rinnegan, Madara's eye with nine Tomoe was called Rinnegan. How, in all seven kingdoms of Westeros, is Kaguya different? I'm reaching the limits of my English skills, if this was a German site, I'd already convinced you, believe me. • Seelentau 愛 議 08:34, June 17, 2014 (UTC)

@Foxie, you misunderstood. I didn't mean by "Rinnegan with power of Sharingan" being simply someone using a Susanoo with Rinnegan active like Madara did, but Sasuke casting Susanoo with his Rinnegan and the said Susanoo being immune to a Rinnegan genjutsu, hence you could say Sasuke's now "Rinnegan enhanced Susanoo" hence has used a Sharingan technique empowered with Rinnegan power. But that's irrelevant to the overall topic. Onto the matter at hand, this is your problem:
 * http://www.quickmeme.com/img/9a/9aedad423a64612ffe8f1a22b86cc15f601babd8d78781ee172b1065b4853d93.jpg What you do is reading the top and bottom as two separate sentences. To you it must mean that he was beaten by cops sometime in the past and that the mention of charity refers to another unrelated instance altogether.
 * The relevance of course is that you do the same in relation to Kaguya's doujutsu:
 * 1) She has power of Sharingan
 * 2) She has Rinnegan
 * 3) Therefore she must have both Sharingan and Rinnegan rather than her Rinnegan having a power of Sharingan

Lets also recapitulate this:
 * the red 6-9 tomoe rippled eye is called a Rinnegan
 * the Shinju also has an identical eye, therefore the Shinju has a Rinnegan
 * and as such obviously, since the originator of all chakra has a Rinnegan, that must mean the Rinnegan came first, therefore the Shinju couldn't have had a Sharingan, debunking your upgrade theory altogether

From that we can deduce that Hagoromo and Sasuke's statements are meant to be read as one sentence, hence Kaguya had a Rinnegan with Sharingan power, that being genjutsu, more specifically Infinite Tsukuyomi.

For the Kabuto and Orochimaru part, they confirmed no shit. For the 999999999999999999th time, Hagoromo's power got split between Ashura and Indra. So when you recombine the split TWO, you get the original. So no, Sharingan doesn't evolve into Rinnegan, the Rinnegan was split into Sharingan, confirmed by merger of what was once one.--Elveonora (talk) 11:32, June 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Annnnnnd that still doesn't explain away Kabuto statement (which is referenced on our Rinnegan page by the way). Rinnegan is a natural progression of the Sharingan. Sharingan is the starting point, not the other way around. Until one of you eggheads gets around that, you're not convincing me. Period. You still can't convince me with the "Rinnegan which has the power of the Sharingan" nonsense—because it is nonsense—but I've grown tired arguing it. By the way, the Susanoo argument is hilarious at best. It blocks out the light of the Infinite Tsukuyomi. How does that suddenly mean it is Rinnegan enhanced? Susanoo is, and this is a big thing here, a defensive technique, meant to block out outside attacks. So I'm just wondering how you leap from that to "his Rinnegan has the power of the Sharingan" and not just assume his Sharingan already has that ability, but since its in its Rinnegan form, he's simply using it the same way he does Susanoo? @Seel: I know preciously little German (what little my grandmother taught me). Enough to hold a conversation, depending on how complicated it gets. You're welcome to try, but, again you'd have to get around Kabuto's statement, which knicks both your theories in the butt. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 16:23, June 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * As always you completely ignore every point made... your luck that I'm a relatively patient person:


 * "natural progression of the Sharingan" Growing a man's face on your chest is a natural occurrence indeed. It's artificial selection, not evolution. The Sharingan in no way does evolve into Rinnegan, it can't, since it evolved FROM the Rinnegan. Turning a Sharingan into a Rinnegan is going backwards, not forward.
 * Sharingan can't be the starting point since the Shinju has a Rinnegan, so refute this first if you can, otherwise it completely flushes the proposal of yours about the Sharingan having been there first down the toilet--Elveonora (talk) 16:44, June 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wait, wasn't Kabuto's point towards Sharingan users? So he was stating that a persons Sharingan could become a Rinnegan, not that all Rinnegan were originally Sharingan. So he was talking about the people that started out with the Sharingan eventually being able to get the Rinnegan. He was talking about how to awaken the Rinnengan for the Sharingan users and how the Sharingan can evolve back to the Rinnegan.

And maybe we shouldn't think of this as evolution/de-evolution (which could exist in anime if the author chose, because it is an anime & not real life) but as complete/incomplete. The Sharingan is 1 part of the sages power while the Rinnegan is the whole. So all Sharingan are just incomplete Rinnegan.

And Kabuto doesn't know everything. He just had a theory and based his speculation off of observation

Can we also include what was said many times? Power of =/= to the actual object. If a room has the color of chocolate, it does not mean it has chocolate, if a card has the smell of a rose, that doesn't mean that it has the rose. The fact that Kishi made it say that she had the Byakugan and power of Sharingan. If she had the Sharingan, why did he make a note that it was 'Power of? the word of differentiates it from being the actual object in this case. Like how some characters in comics are known to have the "the strength or ten men" are not actually possessing 10 men, having the"power of the Sharingan" shows that it isn't a sharingan.

Of is an important word that differentiates it from having the actual object and being similar to the actual object. It's pointing out that her eye had the powers of the sharingan, like how Supergirl has the powers of Superman.

If it was a Sharingan, then why would he point out that she had the "power of the shagingan" rather than just saying that she had the Sharingan like it was stated with the Byakugan? Why make that distinction--Deathmailrock (talk) 20:52, June 17, 2014 (UTC)

"The Sharingan is 1 part of the sages power while the Rinnegan is the whole. So all Sharingan are just incomplete Rinnegan" Finally someone else gets it ^_ now explain this to dear Foxie. Or rather don't bother, because he will bring up some fanon crackpot upgrade theory on you.--Elveonora (talk) 21:07, June 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Dearest Foxie doesn't give a damn, because, as I have told you, nothing changes until we get the tankoban. Don't give yourself carpel tunnel trying to convince me with your long-winded explanations because, the fact is, until Kishi changes it or clarifies his words, then that's how it is. You all know how quickly I (and others in the community) changed my opinion on God: Nativity of a World of Trees when it was clarified further. Same will happen here if clarity ever is needed. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 21:14, June 17, 2014 (UTC)

But It actually never said that all Rinnegan came from Sharingan. Kabuto only said that if you progress beyond the Sharingan, you get a Rinnegan, & that was something that was talking about the changes in the Sharingan. It should be noted that most people knew nothing of the relation between the Sharingan and Rinnegan. He was just confirming that the Sharingan can become the Rinnegan, not that all Rinnegan came from Sharingan.

And it also never stated that Kaguya HAD a Sharingan, just the power. Having the power does not equal having the object itself. You could have the flavor of meat without meat, you could have the color of chocolate without chocolate. You could have something of an object without the actual object--Deathmailrock (talk) 21:52, June 17, 2014 (UTC)

Sharingan should be removed Kaguyas eye is type of Rinnegan and is identical to Madaras third eye and Sasukes left eye. Their eyes were called Rinnegan not Sharingan/Rinnegan hybrid so it means she just have Rinnegan and Byakugan. As I explained before Rikudou said she had Sharingan power because 9 tomoe Rinnegan has Sharingan-like abilities like Infinite Tsukuyomi and Sasukes Space-Time jutsu but she doesn't have Sharingan.--Oranjelo100 (talk) 08:16, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's not being removed. Get it out of your heads. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 16:16, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

teleportation? Dimension?
It was never stated what Kaguya actually did, Kakashi just theorised it was another dimension, right? Shouldn't we note that it was Kakashi's theory?--Deathmailrock (talk) 06:22, June 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * You must have misread the article. It's not stated as fact "Upon her revival, she was able to effortlessly teleport people to a sea of magma, making it appear as if they changed dimensions." Though they may have actually gone to another dimension since the Third Hokage said the chakra disappeared. --Questionaredude (talk) 06:34, June 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm gonna check the raws when they're out. Please don't start an edit war until then. • Seelentau 愛 議 08:34, June 11, 2014 (UTC)

really needle senbon or
Or Sage Art: Hair Needle Barrage?--Elveonora (talk) 13:09, June 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * The safer bet is with the generic technique as opposed to the one that flat out says she's using senjutsu.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 13:22, June 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, she indeed is. The Shinju's chakra = Senjutsu, hence Madara becoming its jinchuuriki gave him "senjutsu of the six paths"--Elveonora (talk) 13:44, June 12, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya's telportation
Will her telportation technique be addressed in her abilities section? In the latest chapter she literally came out of a black void in the air to suck Naruto and Sasuke's chakra and im pretty sure thats a new jutsu since we've never seen something like that before. Also was that some form of killing intent because Naruto and Sasuke were paralyzed with fear even if she didnt have a mean look on her face?--Youngjusticeplayer007 (talk) 13:20, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's already there. Since the paralysis was not mentioned to be related to killing intent, I listed her as a user of Temporary Paralysis Technique. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 13:29, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * I thought they couldn't move because of BZ--Elveonora (talk) 13:32, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

Correction
Umm...shouldn't the Ten-Tails background in this article be clarified as it was revealed that it didn't rampage the land to reclaim chakra, but was acting out of Kaguya's will?  Banan 14  kab  16:08, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * To me the chapter says that the Ten-Tails IS Kaguya, so pretty much her doing--Elveonora (talk) 16:10, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya was/in the Ten-Tails when it was sealed in the moon.
While we wait for RAWs, would be nice to have a little section for it here. Without it, I will state based on what I have read thus far, Kaguya was in/was the Ten-Tails when it was sealed inside the moon. I base this off Black Zetsu stating that Hagoromo didn't know that the Ten-Tails' was not just trying to get it's chakra back, but was specifically trying to get it's chakra back from them.

Basically, again open to change if the RAWs are more clear, when Black Zetsu says that her sons sealed her away, they did so when the Sage created the moon. They either knew their mother was the Ten-Tails and didn't care all that much or were completely ignorant of it. Point is, it was that moment she was sealed, hence why Black Zetsu spent thousands of years trying to get the Ten-Tails back on earth. Again this section is more or less waiting for the RAWs, but for now, yeah that's what it reads like to me.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 16:49, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then how could the Shinju revert back to a tree if it was Kaguya the entire time? Maybe in would be the better solution.-- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 16:52, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * In, was. Different words, same outcome. Giant tree monster with a eye and a hunger for chakra.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:54, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

Uzumaki Clan
It isnt confirmed Hagoromo Otsutsuki' 05:40, June 20, 2014 (UTC)HagoromoOtsutsuki

On Hagoromo becoming stronger than Kaguya
Those that say otherwise, please explain why this shouldn't be put inside the Trivia section: Though Hagoromo did admit that Kaguya was stronger than him, since he did defeat Kaguya/Shinju twice (Sealing them inside him with help from his brother then sealing them inside the moon) means that he technically became stronger than Kaguya and he became a being an individual who wielded 3 godly chakra sources (his, his mom, and the Shinju).

I think this because when you defeat someone in battle, even if it's just for 1 battle, you're stronger than them.

If people disagree with this, please explain why. --Mike 05:54, June 20, 2014 (UTC)