Talk:Blaze Release

QUESTIONS REGARDING TOPICS ALREADY IN THE TALK PAGE OR ITS ARCHIVES WILL BE REMOVED, ALONG WITH THE REPLIES TO IT

Credibility?
1. It is said that the black flames of the ameratsu is the strongest fire jutsu. This "Blaze Release" is saying that it's a different jutsu that uses the same black flames. That doesn's sound right. 2. When he extinguished the black flames from Kirin and Killer Bee, it showed that Sasuke experienced extreme pain in his eyes after doing such. That is evidence alone that this "Blaze Release", being described as controling the black flames, is nothing more than Sasuke's grand talent in the Mangekyo Sharingan. 3. The uchiha clan was a clan that thrived on war, if they contained such a kekkei genkai of mass proportions and didn't realize it, then how could Sasuke have in the heat of battle. With all, if not almost all, kekkei genkai are noticed and exploited for the ninja's use sooner in life than the mid to late teens (EX. Haku discovering around the age of 8). 4. If this was a bloodline limit, then why didn't sasuke learn about it or figure it out before the ameratsu? 5. Other bloodlines don't follow the nature of one of the two elements. Ice isn't water, or wind. Wood isn't earth, or water. Storm isn't lightning, or water. Although, it's more of lighting moving in the manner of water, making it mutualistic. Lava isn't earth, or fire. Boil(boiling mist) isn't fire, or water. "Blaze" only resembles fire. There is no atribute that would make it lighting. The key point of the fire is the flames produced, and controled, by the Ameratsu.

This is simply great mastery of the sharingan, for it has no resemblance to a bloodline limit, while containing the sharingan's abilities.

--Komikale (talk) 01:06, March 6, 2011 (UTC)Mikale koe

Blaze Release is a very unusual way, and to this day makes us scratch our heads. Given how little we know about it, all we could do is use what we already know about chakra natures. My guess in particular is that Blaze Release is Fire Release being modified by Yin Release, which might not actually be a kekkei genkai at all, given how Yin and Yang seem to be the basis of all so far non-elemental ninjutsu. About your points:
 * 1) Blaze Release so far has shown to be controlling and manipulating the flames in ways Amaterasu was never shown to be used.
 * 2) Putting out the flames might be Blaze Release, we don't know. Sasuke did that way before we could ever think something like Blaze Release would come along. As per the previous point, Blaze Release seems to be about a precise manipulation of the flames. Sasuke had also just discovered he could do that, plus later on he got his hate on, so that must count for something. Blaze Release could be to Mangekyō what Mangekyō is to the regular Sharingan.
 * 3) There are very few known people who awakened the Mangekyō Sharingan. Haku doing the water controlling was anime-only, that doesn't count. For all we know from the manga, the first time he actually used his kekkei genkai was when he killed his father.
 * 4) Considering what Blaze Release appears to be, it is about manipulating the flames. It's something even Itachi didn't do. Of course we would have to learn Amaterasu before using Blaze Release. What you're suggesting is akin to Naruto learning Rasenshuriken before Rasengan.
 * 5) The fact Blaze Release is so dissimilar to other advanced natures, and the fact it appears to come from a dōjutsu is what causes the afore-mentioned head scratching. We're not saying that Blaze is fire and lightning, and if you're talking about the image in the nature transformation page, it's just there because we had pick a spot for it to be, and fire and lightning were, according to the established "two elements into one" rule, the least speculative choice, and the fact it has a question mark denotes that it is a speculation, a guess. Ice is technically solid water. Lava is technically molten earth. Mist is technically water particles in the air.

As mentioned, Blaze Release is highly unusual, considering previously established rules for nature transformation, so until the next databook or more manga exposition, we work with what we have. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:23, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

The main summary of your information is that it's a greater mangekyo manipulation. Since ameratsu was already described being the strongest fire-style ability, it is above all others without use of ying or yang. For the bloodline limits you mentioned, they're a combination of the two elements, not claiming all the abilities of one. The point of my involvement on this is to try to have it removed from kekkei genkai because it does not associate as one. I will be okay if it becomes a mangakyo ability that controls the fire, but I am putting up this argument that it does not associate with the bloodlines it is listed with. --Komikale (talk) 01:37, March 6, 2011 (UTC)mikale

There are, in my opinion, two reasons why Blaze Release is listed as a kekkei genkai:
 * 1) So far, it was only shown to manipulate Amaterasu, which is a kekkei genkai ninjutsu. It's not as if Sasuke had used it the manipulate another Fire Release technique. It was used with his Mangekyō Sharingan, the left eye if I'm not mistaken, so a kekkei genkai is necessary to use it.
 * 2) The mechanics of nature transformation so far says that if an element isn't one of the basic five, it is an advanced one, formed by merging of two or more elements. Such a thing can only be achieved by having a proper bloodline, or by having the ability to come from a tailed beast.

Even if it turns out not to be a kekkei genkai, at the moment, there are more things suggesting it is one than there are things suggesting it's not. Regardless, should it be revealed not to be a kekkei genkai, it'll be changed accordingly. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:47, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

But, in the context of a doujutsu having relations to the visual aspects, Sasuke's pain after it can only mean that it is nothing more than an advancement on the ameratsu, in which ameratsu was declared the strongest "fire-element" jutsu.

Also, in the point of view of the writter, why would he make a bloodline limit that is completely unheard of until Sasuke when Itachi wasn't able to do so. If it was a bloodline, Itachi should be able to use it. The argument you could make there is that Itachi didn't inherit it though. Back to the main point, the writer making a new kekkei genkai that would depend solely on someone gaining an extreme state, the mangekyo sharingan, before being able to use such ability is somewhat obsurd. I don't beilive anyone would stand for something that iffy.

In the spirit of the kekkei genkai being combined elements, it would also be obsurd assuming that a comination fire-lightning element would only burn and engulf, having no attribute twords lightning.

We're no Kishimoto, we don't know what he means, or what the purpose of this is. As I said previously, nothing in this article suggests that Blaze Release is a combination of fire and lightning. The one thing which does that in the entire wiki is the image, and again, there is a question mark showing that it's a speculation, the icon being added there solely for the purpose of being there, instead of, say wind and lightning. All information regarding Blaze Release is written based on everything the manga has ever said, and will continue to be so as more information is divulged. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:54, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

No, we're not, but he is the rational source behind the story so he wouldn't make any irrational facts about such strong jutsu that wouldn't follow the rules he has displayed. This article does not display it being a combination, but this site shows that's how it is. I don't agree with that last statement. I find that there has been more than enough information twords this just being an expansion of the mangakyo sharingan and that this element is useless to have, due to the fact it's just fire ability and doujutsu.--Komikale (talk) 03:22, March 6, 2011 (UTC)mikale

Then until more information becomes available, we'll agree to disagree. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:33, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

I can handle to let go and agree with that. --Komikale (talk) 03:35, March 6, 2011 (UTC)mikale

What if Blaze release doesn't use any natures whether it's yin release or fire....he is applying shape transformation to the Amaterasu as far as I know Shape Transformation doesn't use any natures....see my point? --86.145.193.216 (talk) 20:47, July 21, 2012 (UTC)

If he was using shape manipulation alone, it wouldn't be a new release ... but still a fire one. The most possibility is Amaterasu + Yin Release, but until confirmed, it's just a theory.--Elveonora (talk) 21:11, July 21, 2012 (UTC)

two points
one: is this based on something from one of the fan books, and if so could someone put a reference there because it seems like all he did was learn how to manipulate the black flames and everyone just started calling it some new type of special release/nature.

two: for all the people arguing over what natures are included here, but the only thing I've seen is that it says he uses his other eye to manipulate the flames. So wouldn't that sort of shine a better light on how it's done, the fact he's using the eye that controls illusions to do it, rather than one very long page speculating about is it fire plus fire or fire plus lightning? I mean one of lightning thing is just weird, and fire plus fire is just... fire. But even the brief discription here seems to be largely speculative while presenting itself as affermative, saying we just don't know what nature is involved. It's the same black flames, he can just control them. Reading the article though, you wouldn't know that. It comes across like it's some great new nature manipulation that we just don't know anything about yet. I don't know where any of that came from, unless you want to consider the black flames nature manipulation to begin with. But frankly, since the sharingan abilities seem to almost all revolve around illusion and bridging the gap between illusion and reality, MY money's on the black flames and this being exactly the same. It's got more to do with genjutsu than fire. 98.71.99.102 (talk) 11:21, April 22, 2011 (UTC) miah


 * one: Sasuke himself called it "Enton" or "blaze release"
 * two:I don't remember anyone speculating the natures in the articles at least we don't do that. If it's there now it's vandalism. We don't know the mechanic of the technique so we can only add what we know for now
 * three: tl;dr.--Cerez365™☺ 11:26, April 22, 2011 (UTC)

As far as speculating I was mostly talking about this talk page, but wouldn't the enton label apply to amaterasu in general, not just being able to manipulate/shape it? I mean that's like saying because kakashi's dog lightning thing is really shaped differently it's not lightning. It's still the same thing, he's just manipulating it so to be more specific I should say I take issue with calling simply the manipulation of amaterasu blaze release with no mention of it on the amaterasu page.

Even looking at the article though, I do think it's a bit over speculative: "Blaze Release... is an advanced chakra nature... It is unknown what this nature entails." And mostly because this is refering specifically to the manipulation of amaterasu, I think that bothers me. I would rather see this merged with amaterasu in general, with a mention of sasuke's ability to manipulate the flames using his other eye. Mostly because, manipulating an element doesn't make it another element, does it? I don't see the logic in calling it a new element just because he can shape and manipulate the flames when the flames themselves substance-wise don't seem to have changed at all. They're still the same black flames.

I did forget about that quick mention though, and I've not seen the anime episode where he says that, but at least in the manga I don't remember it actually showing him manipulating the flames, it just showed the flames on the sand afterward. Even looking at it again, I'd assume he was refering to amaterasu in general. 98.71.99.102 (talk) 12:25, April 22, 2011 (UTC)miah
 * Friend, unless you have an issue with the two sentences that comprises the article, fine. Otherwise, this isn't a form. Also,please write less, no one is going to read that epistle.--Cerez365™☺ 13:03, April 22, 2011 (UTC)

1. I did criticize the article, it's about 80% of what I wrote. so obviously when you say no one will read it, you mean you're not going to read it. Either that or you didn't get past the first sentence. 2. My criticism about this page is basically that it sounds more like a forum, and a long one at that. So really? You're going to criticize my criticism of this talk page as sounding like a rambling forum, by telling me to keep it to myself because this isn't a forum? 3. An epistle? Were you reading the bible this morning or something? 98.71.99.102 (talk) 13:59, April 22, 2011 (UTC)miah
 * I meant no one will fully read your talk page posts; your latter statement was accurate, i skimmed it.
 * Although article talk pages are not supposed to be a place for "forum talk" you can't be serious in criticising it. That, to me, is ridiculous as long a none of it is translated to the article.
 * Halleluyerrr--Cerez365™☺ 14:11, April 22, 2011 (UTC)

That's an understandable point, but if I criticize it, it's because when they get so long arguing about nothing people are less likely to notice actual discussions about the article, and more likely to miss if their point has already been made. For the same reasons of length, no one wants to read all that about someone's silly theory about fire+lightning. My main point about the article though, is it simply seems like this page should be merged with the page about amaratsu, since in both the manga and anime it seems he only refered to his use of amaratsu as an enton, and his ability to manipulate it should be mentioned there. Plus I really don't like the speculative lines refering to it as an advanced chakra nature, simply because it's never been described as such.98.71.99.102 (talk) 14:21, April 22, 2011 (UTC)miah

You could have avoided this whole topic if you had done your research a bit better. Everything said in the article is based on stuff we've seen in official sources. First, as pointed out already, we call it Blaze Release because Sasuke did. We call it an advanced nature because considering what we know from the manga, everything that's not the basic five, yin, or yang, is an advanced nature. We don't call Amaterasu itself a Blaze Release because it was explicitly called a Fire Release in databooks. We call shaping Amaterasu Blaze Release because shaping it was what Sasuke called Blaze Release. The "it is unknown what this nature entails" is our default sentence for showing we don't know which elements compose this nature, all other natures with unknown composition have it. No text that's out of talk pages and user sub pages suggests that blaze is composed of fire and lightning. The only thing in articles which points at that is the image in the nature transformation page, because we had to include Blaze Release somewhere, and according to what we know so far, advanced natures are made by combining basic natures, so fire and lightning, being the natures Sasuke has, is the least speculative option, and it has the question mark next to it denoting it's not a confirmed fact. Should more information be divulged about it, such as what makes it, or how it is made (if different from the mixing of basic natures), the relevant pages will be updated to reflect it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:27, April 22, 2011 (UTC)

So basically you're saying it's largely based on assumption and opinion, the deciding factor as with most articles being simply whose opinion it is. The one time I heard this word used I don't remember seeing him shape anything, not even in the anime. It was just black flames on sand, so yes... that's an assumption. Just because you're basing it off the first databook calling it fire, did those databooks mention deidra was a blast element user? No? I guess that's not true then either. That's not to mention that it seems to completely avoid common sense in that moving something around has never been considered to make it a fancy new element. And yes, it's speculative to call it an unknown advanced element, because it assumes it's physically different from the black flames, and that seems to be based on nothing since I didn't see the flames do anything different when they hit someone. So yeah, I did do my research. It involved reading the one line about blaze release that absolutely never mentioned or showed it specifically refering to the ability to move the flames around. No, he never called his ability to manipulate the flames an enton. He said, I can't believe I had to block with an enton... refering, probably to the black flames you clearly see on the sand. Frankly the databooks, especially the first one, is hardly complete and unchallenged cannon. And you've still not said anything that isn't speculative youself, and frankly it doesn't make sense. And just to speculate, he probably added the name enton when he decided it was going to be able to be manipulated like a lot of other elements, just as he's been adding names to a lot of other things that didn't previously have names. 98.71.99.102 (talk) 00:17, April 23, 2011 (UTC)miah

Sasuke shaped the Amaterasu flames into the shield around Susanoo, and as the spikes, something C pointed out. Read those chapters again. As I said and as I'll say again: we are calling it an element because Sasuke called it an element, because the author of the series used the same naming structure that is used for many element techniques, using a new word for it. If you don't like it, send Masashi Kishimoto hate-mail, we're not the ones who made that. We still know very little on Blaze Release, and we are using the previously set rules for nature transformation. Do I like that Sasuke suddenly called it a new element? No, I don't, look at the mess it made, but I will list it because this is what we do here, we document the series. The big deal about Blaze, according to what other characters have mentioned, is the fine control Sasuke has over it. C was very specific about noticing that Sasuke creates the flames with one eye and manipulates them with the other. So until Kishimoto says Blaze was just Sasuke's fancy and boastful way of saying Fire Release, we will list it as an advanced nature. Your research then was flawed, as you obviously missed Sasuke using the term Blaze Release when using "Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi", which consists in shaping Amaterasu into spikes. Databooks are a source of information, and once more, your research is flawed, because the first databook has nothing to do with Amaterasu, which got an entry in the second databook, and was explicitly called a Fire Release in the third databook. Databooks only cover things up to the point of the story was in when they were published you know? Show me other things Sasuke named just because then. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:53, April 23, 2011 (UTC)

Question
So I'm confused. Is Amaterasu Blaze Release, or manipulating Amaterasu Blaze Release?
 * From what we have so far:
 * Amaterasu → Fire Release.
 * Shaping Amaterasu → Blaze Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:25, July 7, 2011 (UTC)

Okay thanks. I wasn't sure and sorry I forgot to sign it. 24.129.58.16 (talk) 21:32, July 7, 2011 (UTC)Joey

Honestly it just seems like he's manipulating the black flames. I see how it's a kekkei genkai but that's only because it's by extension a sharingan technique but still I don't see the assumption behind it being a mixture of any other chakra nautre besides Amateratsu. I'm not saying it should be changed, but maybe modified to expalin the fact that we just don't know what it actually is or if it's even a diffrent nature to begin with the whole article sounds like one big assumption.--Hordy4040 (talk) 06:23, July 9, 2011 (UTC)


 * There is no assumption of it being a mixture of any other chakra nature. Sasuke simply calls it Blaze Release. We don't know why he calls it that; it could simply be that he called it that just because it sounded good to him. Perhaps in some future chapter or databook, Kishi will explain what Blaze Release does or does not entail, but right now, we know the following;


 * 1) Sasuke calls it Blaze Release.
 * 2) It clearly involves controlling the shape of the black flames.
 * 3) It uses his right eye instead of the left one.

From that, we can deduce what is on this page using common sense. Captain Jack Sparrow   (Captain's Logs) 06:31, July 9, 2011 (UTC)

Two in one
If Blaze is an advance chakra nature, it must combine Sasuke's Lightning and Fire natures to make it. Its the only loical answer.


 * Countless discussions about this have been passed, and I'm sure most ended in "this is speculation." Although it is logical to some degree, we just don't know because that's not how C said it works, he said Sasuke was altering the form of the flames to use it. I'm not saying that it's wrong, as it may be true, but we don't know yet. It's speculation. Also, please sign your posts. --96.49.138.212 (talk) 22:27, August 3, 2011 (UTC)

Even if it might seem logical to you, its not something that should be put in the article, or anywhere else for that matter. Besides, it doesnt seem logical to me at all.
 * 1) Why would adding lightning to Amaterasu make you able to change the shape. If Amaterasu was the Blaze release i could see the reason for it being fire + lightning, however Amaterasu is as far as we know just plain old fire.
 * 2) Its more or less random that Sasuke can do lightning realease. It just because his old sensei Kakashi could do so, and chose to teach him. While we can not be sure of this, my therory is that if you have a advanced nature realease, you will show some kind of afliction towards both natures.
 * 3) Seeing as he uses his right eye to do the control, and seeing that this is the eye he normaly uses to cast genjutsu with, i would say it would be more plausible that blaze is Fire + Yin (genjustu being yin (or yin being genjustu, thats not completely clear yet)) also taking into account that yin can "can be used to create form out of nothingness". The only thing that voices agians this therory is that so far no andvanced nature using yin or yang has been confirmed, but seeing as we recently got a confirmed Yin element user, ill say we are one sted closer.

Just to make thins clear, im not saying that my therories belongs in any article, cause they are still just therories, and might not be one bit truer than yours, im trying to say that Fire and Lightning is not the only logical answer --Cosmikaze (talk) 13:56, August 5, 2011 (UTC)

Diffrents
whats the diffrent between Blaze Release and the Flame of Ameterasu ? i cant know the rigth thing, since sasuke said to gaara that he is able to dodge his "Enton" which exactly the Ameterasu that Sasuke use --KyoyaCloudX (talk) 13:05, August 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * We don't have all the information on Blaze Release, but from what we know it's when Sasuke modifies Amaterasu to do things like bend it around the Susanoo's bones and such.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 13:34, August 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * What modification was performed when attacking Gaara?
 * Randy Michael (talk) 14:13, September 4, 2011 (UTC)

why is it considered a nature type?
all sasuke does is manipulate the flames.it's like calling when Naruto throws his rasen shuriken a Naruto nature type just because he throws it. if it's one of those things that we have no decision over then i'll forget about it,but if there's a reason i'd like to know it.
 * Enton literal means Blaze Release, not Blaze Control. Usually words ending with the suffix -ton are chakra natures. It's possible it may not be a chakra nature and could just be the way Sasuke decided to name it, but right now we don't know.--Deva 27 04:08, September 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * I apologise in advance, because in my head, this will come off as rude. If you would bother looking up discussions about Blaze Release, you'd see that this questions has been debated at length in several different talk pages, and is available for reading in several talk page articles, which I will not be linking here because I want you to have the decency of looking up before making such edits. And you've been told to start signing your posts already, start doing it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:34, September 22, 2011 (UTC)

i was just wondering if there was any new evidence to show it a was a nature type or a real reason it's considered a nature type.

Still Don't Understand
I'm still baffled as to why it is thought that Blaze Release entails another nature. Didn't C say that it was simply the manipulation of Amaterasu? That doesn't really seem to imply any added natures. Yes I know we're going to wait for further elaboration, I was just curious. Skitts (talk) 03:33, October 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * Because things that begin as "X Release" are natures. I'm still holding out for this being a Yin/Fire combo. But let's cut this here, otherwise we'll have another behemoth section about an already exhausted topic. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:40, October 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * Just because it's a nature dosen't mean it has to be a combination of two natures. Sasuke just uses shape transformation with Amateratsu, like he do with Chidori to create Chidori Current, Chidori Senbon and Chidori Sharp Spear. Would you say that's a combination of Lighting and another nature because of that? Blaze Release is simply Amateratsu combined with Shape Transformation, at least until Kishimoto confirms something else. I seriosuly don't get why ppl keeps insisting that it's a combination of two natures.KenjiNitari (talk) 21:25, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

Susano Blaze release
Should Sasukes susanos ability to supply the flames for Blaze release be edited into this article and should the ability to create tomoe shaped blaze attacks have its own page similar to how 'Shield of Black Flames' did? --Kotoamatsukami (talk) 13:50, February 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * This is something I believe should be properly discussed first. While I believe an "Amaterasu sword" article might make itself necessary in the future should Sasuke use it again, I think that the tomoe thing should be handled more carefully, since what Sasuke did seemed like an Amaterasu version of Yasaka Magatama. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:37, February 15, 2012 (UTC)


 * The "Amaterasu sword" is being treated as the arrows being used as a sword.
 * The shape used does resemble tomoe as does Yasaka Magatama but there is no doubt that Sasuke is using shape manipulation on Amaterasu to create that shape which is considered blaze release. I think it does require its own article just like the other blaze jutsu.


 * I am unsure however if this article should have information on how Sasuke can use his susano as a source for Blaze release.

--Kotoamatsukami (talk) 18:29, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

Second element?
I dont think the part saying that the second element is unknown should remain as blaze release has been explained as just being Amaterasu having shape manipulation applied to it as shown in the manga. It is misguiding to presume another element is involved and it could confuse people.

Also I'm wondering if Sasukes Susano possessing the orb where Blaze release jutsu can be performed from should be mentioned as it is unique and directly affects this element in how it can function. --Kotoamatsukami (talk) 14:44, February 27, 2012 (UTC)

It's there because advanced natures were said to be made by blending two basic natures. The only canon exception to this is Dust Release, which combines three natures. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:53, February 27, 2012 (UTC)

Its been made clear however that its not the case with blaze and that was said before this element came about. Its status as an advanced nature has not been confirmed and given how it works it seems to stand alone in its function. Its been explained how it works and no reason or anything indicates it requires a second nature, especially how the flames themselves have taken no new qualities of a second nature.

Going by it needs a second nature is going with pre-dated info and unestablished speculation or it being a advanced element so needs another element despite its function being explained.

As its been seen and explained on how the blaze is used its only misguiding to presume another nature is in effect.

--Kotoamatsukami (talk) 16:04, February 27, 2012 (UTC)

No, it hasn't. Matter of fact, other than its name and that it involves manipulating Amaterasu, nothing has been said on Blaze Release. No new information on it has been given, and this topic will go nowhere, so just read the previous discussions. Yes, this is lousy topic, and I wish Blaze Release had never come into existence, because it's so dissimilar to what we came to expect from nature transformations. We go by what was said on nature transformations, until a canonical source explicitly says this is not a combination. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:25, February 27, 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough, what about the other thing i said " Also I'm wondering if Sasukes Susano possessing the orb where Blaze release jutsu can be performed from should be mentioned as it is unique and directly affects this element in how it can function. " --Kotoamatsukami (talk) 15:24, February 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sasuke has used Blaze Release without the orb, so I don't think it's essential to mention it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:37, February 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * People have used earth release with and without earth but we still mention both. I see no reason not to and all reason to do so, he's shown two uses of it so far that haven't been done without it; the sword/bow and the tomoes. Something like this that directly effects the element should be mentioned as it explains how it can be used in different ways.

--Kotoamatsukami (talk) 16:02, March 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * What do you mean by "People have used earth release with and without earth" Also, it's the simple fact that it's called a "release" not to be presumptive in any way it's just a way to standardise the wikia and the information on it. Not because people assume it's something different means we should treat it different that any other thing called "release" until more information is available. No matter what you do that won't change, it's simply one of the ways to have the information following a pattern.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 17:24, March 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * That they have created their own earth for jutsu instead of using it from the ground. Just like Sasuke has created flames for blaze release but also used them from the orb. I see it worth mentioning so it gives a better understanding to people about this element.
 * Kotoamatsukami (talk) 18:17, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

Itachi
Shouldn't Itachi be added as an Enton user too? When C saw Sasuke using his Enton-shield he wondered wether Sasuke is more skilled at it than Itachi, meaning that Itachi can do the same.
 * Nope. Itachi could only shoot Amaterasu, and let it go out by stop using it. Blaze Release as it is understood so far includes actual manipulation of the flames. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:01, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

yeah I know but C made that comment when he saw Sasuke manipulating the Amaterasu, so when he used Enton. I think Itachi could use it but simply never did it onscreen FirePit (talk) 20:42, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

Speculations--Elveonora (talk) 20:50, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

That's why I posted here, I wanted to discuss wether C's hint is enough to determine wether Itachi can use it or not because to me it clearly sounded as if C saw Itachi using Enton and compaired it with Sasuke's Enton. FirePit (talk) 20:52, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

People at the summit only recognized Amaterasu. If the basic manipulation of Amaterasu prompted C to say he was better than Itachi, that would mean Itachi couldn't do any manipulation at all. This isn't a direct thing, like Madara telling people Hashirama could use great medical ninjutsu. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:38, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

Ah okayFirePit (talk) 22:31, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

Game Debut
Which game did Blaze Release appear in first? Kunoichi, I'd appreciate it if others answered, since I already know what you will be replying with, but you have no source to confirm it, only that Impact came before Generations but that just doesn't mean Blaze Release appeared in Impact. :/ --Speysider Talk Page 20:49, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think Blaze Release first appear in Impact, look at this video it shows Sasuke manipulating the flames of Amaterasu. - White Flash - (Talk) - 20:58, June 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks WF! :) --Speysider Talk Page 21:06, June 25, 2012 (UTC)

Not a Kekkai Genkai
Its not a kekkai genkai. These are things that can be used through the mangekyo sharingan, a different kekkai genkai, a dojutsu. the only two i can think of that use amaterasu are Sasuke and Itachi. Someone please acknowledge this and remove this as a kekkai genkai. 192.183.30.172 (talk) 03:24, January 29, 2013 (UTC)Adam
 * Friend you need to go read what a kekkei genkai is, and then reassess what you just posted.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 06:02, January 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sharingan is a kekkei genkai too, so all of it's powers fall into the kekkei genkai category --FirePit (talk) 19:13, January 29, 2013 (UTC)

If you're wondering what happened to the extra discussion there used to be at this point, kindly refer to the big warning at the top of this talk page. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:30, February 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * The short version why this is considered a kekkei genkai:
 * Techniques with the format "X Release"/"X遁" are elemental techniques → Blaze Release is an elemental technique.
 * Techniques other than fire, wind, lightning, water, earth, yin and yang are what we call "advanced natures" → Blaze Release is an elemental technique.
 * Advanced natures are acquired either through kekkei genkai/tōta (all of them) or through a tailed beast skill (only example is Lava Release) → Blaze Release is acquired through one of those methods.
 * Sasuke does not have a tailed beast sealed into him → Sasuke acquired Blaze Release through a kekkei genkai.
 * Blaze Release appears to be to Mangekyō what Mangekyō is to the regular Sharingan: simply a specialised technique within an already specialised technique. Mangekyō has its own article, but it's still Sharingan. Until Kishimoto explicitly and precisely explains what Blaze Release is and how it does or does not work, we go by previously established rationale. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:17, February 4, 2013 (UTC)


 * ok you put your arguments in an easy way to understand, so i'll do the same
 * The only person to even call it "Release" was Sasuke and maybe the people he told it to. He named it himself.  It is known that not all characters of the manga are correct in their assessment of things.
 * It is only an ability of the Mangekyo, nothing special enough to get its own category. By the logic presented, you would have to consider other abilities as kekkai genkai, too, such as Kakashi's space-time ninjutsu eye, susanoo, and amaterasu itself.
 * It only contains amaterasu, so only one type of change in nature: fire. You can consider Blaze Release as a change in chakra form.
 * not as related to this specific page, but I don't even consider mangekyo as its own kekkai genkai, just as a subsection of the sharingan. i let that one go though since it has so many subsections and abilities limited to specifically the mangekyo

(also i got rid of some sentences in my previous posts that were bugging me. not a big deal) There are my main arguments. if i can think of others, i may come back and add to it. 192.183.30.172 (talk) 22:35, February 4, 2013 (UTC)Adam


 * 192.183.30.172: As noted in Scorch Release: Halo Gale Jet Black Arrow Style Zero's trivia, "Tobirama Senju noted that he's never seen such a Blaze Release before..." General Awesomo (talk) 13:02, July 5, 2013 (UTC)

The Orb
Is a new tool or just a condensed-controled amaterasu? --MaskedManMadara (talk) 21:57, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

It's Amaterasu orb, not an item--Elveonora (talk) 23:00, February 8, 2013 (UTC)

Debut?
So if it's part of Enton that he can put out the flames, wouldn't the debut be the chapter he actually put them out? Seelentau 愛議 21:26, February 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * I've seen people argue about Itachi having extinguished the flames as well, I don't recall.--Elveonora (talk) 21:48, February 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * What chapter? Seelentau 愛議 22:09, February 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Chapter 390 page 6--Elveonora (talk) 22:25, February 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * He stopped casting it, yes. He did not put it out, though. Seelentau 愛議 22:34, February 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * He didn't want to kill Sasuke and was pretending he wanted his eyes. So you mean to tell me the flame ceased to burn by itself?--Elveonora (talk) 12:41, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes. It burns everything it needs to, and if that's done, it stops, hm? Seelentau 愛議 12:56, February 3, 2014 (UTC)

So what you imply is that the technique's flame burns and is hot only while the user focuses his sight on a target? That kinda contradicts it burning the forests and if that were true, Sasuke would have had to just close his eyes in order to save Karin. Not to mention it would leave Zetsu's statement irrelevant if Itachi didn't do anything--Elveonora (talk) 13:00, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes... in that case, putting out the flames isn't part of Enton. Seelentau 愛議 11:21, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

That's what I'm getting at, Amaterasu article even states Itachi could put out the flames, yet this article accredits it to blaze release thing--Elveonora (talk) 12:10, February 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Unless things were changed, eons ago, the ability to put out the flames was not one attributed to Blaze Release, but a power of mastery of Amaterasu. The ability to manipulate the flames (read: Have it move in one direction, then suddenly turn to another, make stuff out of it, ect) was attributed to Blaze Release. Before Sasuke started doing stuff to it, Amaterasu could be cast but then it just kind of did it's own thing. Sasuke then decided to use Plot no Jutsu and made it do other stuff besides burn everything to the ground.
 * What did that little history lesson mean? It means that Itachi putting out the fire was not Blaze Release, just him exerting his mastery. Sasuke deciding to make spikes was using Blaze Release and that was the debut.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:38, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

Jutsu? Really?
I'm sorry, but isn't it more speculative to call Blaze Release just a jutsu instead of chakra nature? Yes, there's stuff with it that doesn't add up either way, but considering all the information baggage we have on how stuff is named in Naruto, calling it a chakra nature requires fewer assumptions and logic tinkering than calling it a jutsu. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:26, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wait, when did it stop being a nature?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 00:32, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * I was under the impression that it was discussed, eons ago, that if something ended up with "X Release" and led to techniques with "X Release: Y" it was a nature until Kishimoto decided to say otherwise. When the hell did that change?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 00:35, February 3, 2014 (UTC)

While I understand why some of you might be against my latest edits to this article, I think they were valid. This article is - as it is now - full of speculation about Enton and even while I agree with all of it, it's against how a Wiki should work if we leave those speculations in the article.

Enton was never called an advanced nature. Its ending is the only thing that suggests that it's an advanced chakra nature. Everything else speaks against it being a nature: There is no new nature created, it's cast through the eyes and there's only one nature involved (as far as we know). It's against what Kakashi described as a nature based Kekkei Genkai.

Also, if we apply the "X ton = nature" principle to everything, then wouldn't this be a nature, too? Seelentau 愛議 08:51, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think there are more examples of nature-like techniques like Toad Oil Bullet--Elveonora (talk) 12:58, February 3, 2014 (UTC)

But on actual topic, sorry to disappoint you Seel, but:
 * it's an application of Amaterasu
 * Amaterasu is Fire Release
 * therefore still a nature, advanced or not
 * meaning it should still be classified as Fire Release in the least--Elveonora (talk) 13:49, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, Enton is used through Fire Release, but it was never stated that it's a new nature. Amaterasu isn't a new nature and Enton is Amaterasu + Keitaihenka. By the manga's explanation, Enton is no new nature (or a new Kekkei Genkai, for that matter). Seelentau 愛議 13:52, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * True, we shouldn't suggest it's an advanced nature in case it hasn't been stated which I don't recall if it was. But I think you removed too much stuff, like the Tobirama statement for example which in fact lays evidence onto your proposition that it indeed may not be an advanced nature considering an instance of past possible user/s.

For example, the time-altering aspect of Tsukuyomi isn't mandatory, it can be used without it, so who is to say that every Amaterasu user can't learn "blaze release" which may simply be an optional trick to it?--Elveonora (talk) 14:06, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * I removed that, because he didn't say Enton, but Kagutsuchi. I guess that's just nitpicking, though. And I never said that no one else could possibly use Enton. Seelentau 愛議 14:42, February 3, 2014 (UTC)

Also unless I'm missing something, another thing worthy of note is how come is this a doujutsu since we saw Sasuke use it with his hands? 0_o Kinda not following Kishi's logic--Elveonora (talk) 14:44, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Aamaterasu is a Dōjutsu. Seelentau 愛議 15:20, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * But so is Blaze Release, isn't it? What about C's comment? But he can do it with hands too so that's confusing to me--Elveonora (talk) 15:43, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * We don't know what exactly Blaze Release is, but it's a Dōjutsu because of Amaterasu. Sasuke can't do it with his hands, he just focuses it on his hands. Seelentau 愛議 17:09, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Think of it the same way Obito can use Kamui to nigh-instantly transport his victims to the other dimensional space by making physical contact with them. Using Kagutsuchi in conjunction with Amaterasu allows the flames to be conjured up and wielded in that manner. At least, that's how I see it.


 * By the way: Still wishing you guys would just identify it as the way Sasuke dubs Amaterasu's flames. What other examples of a Nature Release combines Seishitsu Henka and Keitai Henka? Blargh. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 17:24, February 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * Blaze Release being a dojutsu was never in question, it manipulates Amaterasu, so that was a given. The issue was it wasn't a chakra nature. Which the name "Blaze Release", its application "Blaze Release: WhateverDaFudgeIWantBecauseI'mSasukeUchiha". The fact that we don't know what makes it doesn't change it fits with the other things we do know about Nature transformations.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 23:37, February 3, 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but when you say "advanced chakra nature", do you mean kekkei genkei? Iowndisciti (talk) 00:07, February 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Technically, yes. As one cannot have an advanced chakra nature without a kekkei genkai.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 02:41, February 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, Blaze Release is a dojutsu. The fact that we don't know what it is means that we don't add something like "is an advanced chakra nature". Simple as that. So how was my edit wrong? I removed everything that wasn't stated in the manga and left a trivia about the "release" and how it's unclear if it's a chakra nature. Seelentau 愛議 09:21, February 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * This is going to become a circle argument and one we've had plenty of times before. Anyone want to guess my next line? I'm certain you've all seen it by now.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:31, February 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, you could try to counter my arguments for a change? I countered your "release = nature" argument with "Tonton Jutsu isn't a nature, either" and even added a trivia about that suffix. What else don't you agree with? Seelentau 愛議 13:03, February 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Oh I most certainly can. And I have. Plenty of times before this one. But that merely delays the inevitable. Before I continue any further I'm hoping someone takes note of how this will most in all probability end up going.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:13, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, you will go on like "I am an admin and have power over you" and "since I disagree with you the discussion ends here and now." Right?Iloveinoxxx (talk) 13:19, February 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Close, but no. Think the last time this happened was a bit before your time. Ten Points to Ravenclaw for effort however.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:25, February 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Hufflepuff-senior. Mind to enlighten us mortals with your divine judgment?Idontcareaboutmyname (talk) 13:31, February 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Slytherin actually. (Green and Silver for Life!) but considering how you asked so very nicely.
 * 1) Seelentau brought up a counter to my first statement "release = nature" with "Tonton".
 * 2) I would have then countered with Tonton being a character's name. I would have also countered with past evidence in series have shown that when a technique went from "X Release: Y (Technique)", the first part was the nature.
 * 3) Seelentau could then counter with we have no proof it is a nature though, and to that he is not wrong.
 * 4) I would have countered, while we don't have proof that it is a nature, we also do not have proof that it is not one. I would have then used my previous statement again to point out that it follows the same written format as every other nature, and considering how it is not Fire, Wind, Earth, or Water, the logical conclusion is that it would be an advanced nature.
 * 5) Which rightfully should be countered with "We don't know that, so we shouldn't make assumptions."
 * 6) To which I would respond "That's the problem we keep having and why this crap happens every other month, we have enough information to make a conclusion on our own we just don't and sit with our thumbs up our asses."
 * 7) Then from here on out, it will be me vs anyone whom I've ever offended, leaving the conversation at hand to be ignored or resolved with no "end" to the overarching issue that leads to this thing in the first place.
 * That is basically how this conversation will continue. As it happened the last dozen times we had it.
 * Also, 50 points from Ravenclaw for making fun of Hufflepuff. Don't hate because they go hard.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:44, February 4, 2014 (UTC)