Talk:Zetsu

Separation
I think after the latest chapter we should discuss the separation of the article (to Black Zetsu and White Zetsu) again. Black Zetsu is revealed to be completely different essence than White Zetsu, he is Madara's clone created via Onmyōton while White Zetsu is Hashirama's clone created via Mokuton. They have different personalities and origins, their only common thing is ability to merge into one body.Faust-RSI (talk) 15:40, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * If Madara never separated them, why should we? --Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:47, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

@Cerez, the white was there before the black has been created, thus we should do some kind of separation in their article at least, like Kamui has (Kakashi/Obito)--Elveonora (talk) 15:56, October 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * Ukon was born before Sakon, yet their articles aren't separated are they? I'm against separating their articles because the two operate as a single being most of the time. The information in the article isn't overbearing or confusing so I don't see the need to separate the information. Also Faust-RSI, all the clones were created using Yin-Yang Release from what I understand: one from the statue the other from the clone, it's just that White Zetsu was created first, there is no difference between the two. I really don't see one good reason to separate the articles, simply because they can split themselves. In that case we should create one for Mū's "clone".--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 16:05, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

Well, meant separate background/personality/abilities/other stuff sections, not 2 articles for them--Elveonora (talk) 16:09, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

Since they work as a single entity most of the time, it might be best to keep the sections on their background and role in the story as a single section. The same goes for their appearance, since splitting them would basically mean describing a lot of the same things twice. Their abilities, however, may be a different story. Other than Mayfly, which all of their kind can use, the two haven't really displayed any shared abilities. Their abilities section could be split into two the way most articles are split into sections for nature transformation, kekkei genkai, etc.--BeyondRed (talk) 18:08, October 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * Would this work for a reorganised version of the abilities section?--BeyondRed (talk) 21:08, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

I think that's how it should be, but also a separate background since their "birth" differ--Elveonora (talk) 23:56, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

1. Yes, Madara never separated them, though this is irrelevant, all of the most important, final arc, they were separated. 2. Ukon and Sakon never acted as separate entities, yet BZ and WZ did. Also, their significance is incomparable with that of Zetsu. 3. It was never mentioned WZ was created using Yin-Yang Release, moreover, it is strongly implied it has Yang release only, as seen when Zetsus abnormally react to Naruto's chakra. Moreover, WZ is Hashi's clone, while BZ is basically Madara, I don't know why you ignore that. And this is HUGE difference. I don't see how it is even possible to compare them to Muu's jutsu.Faust-RSI (talk) 05:45, October 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * In the most recent chapter, Madara told Obito that the beings created through Yin-Yang Release could be used as his pawns, implying that it was used to create the white clones as well. As for completely splitting the article, it could lead to problems on other pages; mentions of Zetsu acting as a single entity on other pages would have to link to one side or the other. Black Zetsu's creation can be explained within a single sentence and he remained merged with White Zetsu for a while after that, so their background section works fine as it is, although the part about Black Zetsu's creation is currently out of order. The abilities section could definitely be separated though, as previously mentioned.--BeyondRed (talk) 06:57, October 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * Sakon and Ukon have acted independently, they've split up as well.
 * How much significance a character holds for you is insignificant to the discussion, and not a valid reason. We're supposed to be neutral.
 * The Zetsu clones were all created from Yin-Yang Release. They react poorly to Naruto full-on Yang-natured chakra because of their genetic makeup. They're vegetation, the Yang-natured chakra is simply activating them. What is happening to them is no different than Danzō's arm turning into a tree.
 * I'm not ignoring anything. You seem however to be willing to just look past the fact that they're a single entity, that just happen to be able to split and act independently to split their articles for no good reason.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 10:59, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * They have, for one battle, hundreds chapter ago. Zetsus did this recently in the most important chapters of this manga. Sakon's and Ukon's significance is almost zero, BZ and WZ have connections to all the most important events of this manga. So no, it is not my personal opinion in any way, it is what this manga shows us thus your comment is no relevant and makes no sense.


 * My mistake, they did, though one clearly represents Uchiha and Yin while other Senju and Yang. Though this is not the point. The point is that WZ is Hashirama's clone while BZ is not.
 * They are not single entity in any way, did you miss the part where WZ was existing for-hell-knows-how-long before BZ was even born? Being able to merge don't make them one. There are more characters that are able to merge, but only Sakon and Ukon share the article, even bijuus have their own pages.Faust-RSI (talk) 19:14, October 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm also for a split in the articles. As far as Zetsu is concerned, Black Zetsu and White Zetsu were created for two completely different purposes using two completely different methods, Black Zetsu has been shown to do things that White Zetsu cannot, they aren't as dependent of each other as we originally thought either. They have different personalities, backgrounds, that kind of thing. Comparing them to Sakon and Ukon is not even applicable. Both White and Black Zetsu have spent a considerable amount of time separate (all the time before Black Zetsu was born, and during most of this Shinobi World War arc). While Sakon and Ukon were shown to separate, we don't know anything about their pasts, or what they're like when they are apart for significant amounts of time. Furthermore, we don't know if they have the exact same abilities, or have different abilities than each other. We do know all these things about the two Zetsu. If, at some point, we learn all of this about Sakon and Ukon, I'd be for splitting them too, but in this case, I think a split is necessary. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 20:38, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * They've spent more chronological time together, but as far as on-panel, shown time goes, they haven't separated for that much time, and they didn't do much by themselves after splitting. And even considering the things that they did do after splitting, they spend much more time staying put than actually doing stuff. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:02, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Regardless, we have more than enough material to classify them as separate characters. I find it extremely unnecessary to lump them all together when we have so much unique information on their individual selves. They aren't even collectively referred to as "Zetsu" anymore. They haven't been since earlier in Shippuden. They've been referred to as Black Zetsu and White Zetsu for quite some time. I think we have enough to warrant two articles. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:15, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Edit: Also, should we decide to split them, we could make "Zetsu" a disambiguation to link to all the different Zetsu incarnations, since the term "Zetsu" now applies to Black and White Zetsu, Spiral Zetsu, the White Zetsu Army, and the like. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:19, October 27, 2012 (UTC)

There is no need to split Zetsu. Up until this current arc, there was only Zetsu, with Black and White personality. Them separating into two physical forms. As mentioned before, that would be like separating Sakon and Ukon which would result in two articles with the exact same information for the majority of the page.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 21:52, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * No, Ultimate, there would not. For Sakon and Ukon, that might be the case, but regarding the two Zetsu, there are ample amounts of information amount both to give them completely unique articles. Black and White Zetsu, as a single entity, didn't make too many appearances before this arc. Their plot sections prior to the Five Kage Summit arc is mediocre at best. Its not like they made a ton of appearances as one being. I'm sorry, but, given the unique nature of their creation, the fact that they were created separately, have different personalities, different purposes, and even, in some cases, different abilities, makes it perfectly legitimate. White Zetsu is even dead, at this point. So you're telling me we're gonna keep adding stuff for just Black Zetsu now to this article? Makes no sense. For the last two or three arcs they haven't been merged. At all. There is no legitimate reason to keep them together. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 00:23, October 28, 2012 (UTC)

Separation is the most logical thing to do, I don't see why some people disagree.--Elveonora (talk) 01:27, October 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * I have created two sandboxes; Black Zetsu and White Zetsu. That should serve to demonstrate how different each article can be. It has different information specific to that Zetsu, illustrates their ability differences, even their plot section focuses solely on their actions when they act alone. The only thing that is exactly the same on both articles is the "Creation and Conception" and the "Trivia". Even the quotes are different. I believe this proves we can make them unique articles. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 04:08, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * Good work, I'm all for making those sandbox articles into the ground for the separate BZ and WZ articles. The only arguments opponents have all sound like "I'm too lazy to do this, this is too much work, let's better do nothing", sorry, but this is how it looks like Faust-RSI (talk) 11:31, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm gonna wait for one more person to chime in and then we'll go from there. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:52, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * I still don't see the benefit from splitting the article. Even the databook didn't bother splitting the profile between WZ and BZ. I don't see the cost/benefit in doing the split. Besides, changing all the links to BZ and WZ isn't something that can simply be done with a bot. The article as is is perfectly capable of informing everything there is to know about Zetsu, B&W. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:09, October 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * The databooks have nothing to do with this. When the last databook came out, Zetsu had not been split up for two arcs. You can bet the next databook will have them separated, as it has now been revealed that they have different origins and different purposes. As the sandboxes I created show, they even have different abilities and Black Zetsu is more of a fighter, while White Zetsu, as Obito mentioned, is not a "front line" fighter. They're different in numerous ways. They even have different personalities. As I said before, if Sakon and Ukon had displayed this many differences and this much independence from one another, as Black and White Zetsu have, I'd be asking for them to split too. If its really just the links you're worried about, there are editors that are more than willing to do that. But really, I and others see it as a necessity. They're too different to keep on the same article. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:16, October 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * There is no benefit in splitting the pages. You say it is nothing like Sakon and Ukon, but fail to say how it is so. For the overwhelming majority of the series there has only been Zetsu. Hell, even splitting they've done nothing that warrants the articles being split. There is nothing that requires this page to be split.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:27, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * Hell, even your proposal pages feed into my argument. Both the articles are practically the same.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:30, October 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * I told you how it was different from Sakon and Ukon. Sakon and Ukon appeared for less than half an arc. There is no information on their background, they have the exact same abilities and even similar personalities. Not the case here with these two. Funny, because if you look up, you'll see these explanations two or three times. Secondly, yes there is everything to requite these pages being split. They have different personalities, different origins, different purposes, different abilities, and besides that, the only argument we seem to be getting from you, just like with the Obito and Tobi split, is "its too much work". Also, looking back over my proposals, I see numerous differences, particularly in the background and abilities sections, as well as towards the arcs in which they become more prominent as separate characters. They're two completely different people. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:38, October 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * And their articles will be get this 80% the same (yes I pulled a number out my bum). Look at the current article and the two proposals you wrote up. At most the only noticeable difference is they are separate (obviously) and alot of uses of "both Zetsu". There is no logical reason to split a page if the information is just go in to be repeated in another with 1 or 2 words changed in a attempt to make it different. There is nothing wrong with the current set up, and splitting them will cause more problems than solve because there was nothing to solve.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:44, October 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * logic full of win, White&Black Zetsu have a single common article, while "Spiral Zetsu" has his own. We either include all "Zetsus" in one or keep each separated if different enough--Elveonora (talk) 19:04, October 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * Completely agreed. Sorry, Ultimate, but your logic makes zero sense. There is ample material to make two separate articles and there should be two separate articles. They are two unique characters and, especially now, with White Zetsu dead and their inability to rejoin, its important that we emphasize the differences in their characters. My sandboxes were just examples of how it could be done. Once we actually get to doing it, the final result will be much different than those sandboxes. Unless you can give us all a reason other than "too much work" or Sakon and Ukon, which aren't even comparable cases, then you really have no basis for stopping the split of the article. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 19:19, October 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * Spiral Zetsu for most of the series didn't exist, and other than a common origin, shares nothing with the B&W Zetsu. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:21, October 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * Omni is correct on Spiral Zetsu. Save common origin, nothing is similar and his page ends where it does. No matter how you say it, the information will be the same, if only different because it was worded differently to make it different. You can ignore it all you want, but to split a page into two when most of the information will be similar is pointless.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 19:29, October 28, 2012 (UTC)

TheUltimate3, you are completely unfair to the sandbox articles. They are only examples, and they were created by one man, he did it all alone. You can't demand perfection from them, the good content will be created by the community. Developing those pages will obviously drop your "80%" down. But they will never be 100% different, though only few articles here have 100% unique content, you can't avoid interdependencies among different characters.Faust-RSI (talk) 09:03, October 29, 2012 (UTC)

I don't really think they require seperate articles as most of the information is just going to be repeated.—

I can't believe we're still on this though. Browsing through the sandboxes I see no difference between the two articles. The people for the split are basing it on the simple premises that "they were created separately/differently" which I think is utter rubbish. If he was created with his own body and not poured into White Zetsu, you guys would have a more substantial argument from my perspective. Have White and Black Zetsu even done enough apart to be considered separate entities? ...no they have not: we'd have one paragraph saying they did x and then everything will be the same- that is not ample amount of information to split an article. The hassle of having to do that and then simply transcribing the information to another article is ludicrous.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 12:25, October 29, 2012 (UTC)

Wow, I cannot believe i am just now getting to this argument. Had I read it at the time of Cerez's last edit, i'm not sure what side i'd be on. BUT NOW!? It's totally obvious that they are clearly two separate entities. That is undeniable for sure. Yes, Madara created them at different times(blah,blah,blah), but since B.Zetsu left the W.Zetsu clone which he was simply "occupying", that is the icing on the cake. Im not sure that anyone can reasonably argue against splitting the article between white and black Zetsu anymore. They may have debuted together and as the same person, but clearly, that is off. All in favor, say "I". KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 23:58, December 31, 2013 (UTC)

After more than a year, I am still in favour of separation. I was too tired to continue this pointless argument few people were interested in. But everything that happened in the manga during this time has only strengthened my point.Faust-RSI (talk) 09:51, January 1, 2014 (UTC)


 * Still unnecessary. The fact that he reverted to his normal globule mass changes nothing in the slightest in my opinion. Zetsu has been presented as a single entity with two different consciousnesses (or more accurately as we know two entities sharing one body) however, nothing has changed. The information is still not enough to stand on its own as two separate articles without copying and pasting the same thing in 2 different articles. I could understand if the article was causing mass confusion or something, but it isn't. Again I will ask: if Kishimoto never presented them as 2 individuals, why should we? --Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 16:21, January 1, 2014 (UTC)


 * Except he did and whatever amount of denial can't change that. Of course he wasn't presented like this from the beginning - FOR THE STORY PURPOSE. It's not so difficult to understand. But as the story had progressed the things changed and we should do accordingly. Faust-RSI (talk) 06:11, January 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * You've still to provide a valid reason for separating the articles except that the two halves can act independently. I think I'll stop beating this dead discussion now, because it's highly unlikely that the wikia will move to split the article at this point in time.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 13:36, January 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, who knows. But the entire point of the argument is that they are not two halves, but two enitrely different entities. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 16:01, January 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * And now they even got separate names, lol Faust-RSI (talk) 07:54, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, since the original White Zetsu is now dead, and White and Black have gone separate paths after the war started (White watching over Sasuke until being killed, Black participating in the war and forcing Obito to revive Madara), a split does seem to be reasonable. They have differing names despite being "Zetsu" (White, Black, Spiral, White clone, the four types of Zetsus) and the two being nicknamed by a White Zetsu clone. Also, Fukasaku and Shima were originally one page, but eventually they are separated because their roles diverged, so much like Zetsu's. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 01:30, January 24, 2014 (UTC)

Still unnecessary.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 01:33, January 24, 2014 (UTC)

White Zetsu
Does anyone know if the chapter where "White Zetsu" was "killed" by Sasuke was fixed in the volume releases? Because if it wasn't, and the Zetsu killed by Sasuke didn't get the flytraps, then we should really consider it wasn't the original killed by Sasuke.--RexGodwin (talk) 01:07, December 30, 2013 (UTC)

Clones said he was the original, or rather questioned Sasuke about it, something he didn't deny, so that's that--Elveonora (talk) 01:09, December 30, 2013 (UTC)

When White Zetsu was first created his flytraps were on the other side and when Black Zetsu was imbued into him he had no flytraps at all. The clone killed at the summit also had them even though the other clones we've seen didn't. Seems the original and his clones can just grow and retract them at will.--BeyondRed (talk) 02:59, December 30, 2013 (UTC)

The Army clone specualted that, but it was never confirmed. And No the one at the Summit was the Original, he never died. Karin noticed he was still alive after. The real WZ always has had venus flytrap parts.--RexGodwin (talk) 06:59, December 30, 2013 (UTC)

The original is dead, there is no doubt. If he was alive, there would be no need to substitute him with one of the Army clones in the latest chapters. Kishi just made another mistake with those flytraps, though it would be useful to see volume version. I agree that Original always had them, and it wasn't a clone that was killed during the summit, it was original and he was alive - chapter 464, page 11. Faust-RSI (talk) 07:21, December 30, 2013 (UTC)

So you meant to tell me, that someone can still be alive after he gets killed without even dying? Makes sense--Elveonora (talk) 13:19, December 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yup, that's Zetsu for you.Faust-RSI (talk) 13:34, December 30, 2013 (UTC)

i dont understand zetsu is dead he has many copies and they are al the same becuase they are copies and just like the original so teh discusion is not neededIloveinoxxx (talk) 18:19, January 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * Zetsu could very well live on in somewhere else he can create spores and he escaped under ground so he didn't truly die, he still lived on Just like orochimaru lived on through cursed seals. --Mr Easter (talk) 11:46, January 2, 2014 (UTC)

Name
Just wondering, when was Zetsu's name first revealed? like what chapter/databook/other piece of info did we first learn of his name?--RexGodwin (talk) 11:23, January 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * In the book of Sha. Seelentau 愛議 13:56, January 18, 2014 (UTC)

uh im pretty sure Zetsu has been named in the manga long before that databook came out--RexGodwin (talk) 15:34, January 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh, manga... I don't know. Seelentau 愛議 15:58, January 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * I guess first time will be chapter 255, page 3, said by Pain.--LeafShinobi (talk) 16:59, January 18, 2014 (UTC)

awesome, thanks. i was just thinking we should use whatever first time his name is revealed as the source at the top, instead.--RexGodwin (talk) 09:52, January 19, 2014 (UTC)

First Artificial Human
This article and several others currently state that White Zetsu was the first of all the artificial humans. This is presumably because the clones killed by Sasuke called him their original, but those were the clones created by Obito who share his image, we don't really know whether White Zetsu was the first of the clones created by Madara, do we?--BeyondRed (talk) 23:43, January 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * In my opinion it's some kind of fallacy. The original is Hash Plant Clone, all WZ are his/its children/fruits. How can they be clones of a single WZ? They weren't created from him but with him--Elveonora (talk) 01:20, January 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Spore Technique sort of creates clones, and Zetsu does have a cloning technique known as Parasite Clone. WZ may not do it often, but he does have the ability to create clones of himself independently from the Hashirama clone. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:34, January 20, 2014 (UTC)

Because SZ; one of the first clones, was called by Zetsu himself his clone. So WZ predated even Spiral Zetsu. Plus the army clones aren't even direct clones of Zetsu; they were cultivated by Obito. Plus obviously he is the first, being the main WZ in the series. it wouldn't make much sense if he wasn't the original.--RexGodwin (talk) 02:33, January 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * Black Zetsu also referred to White Zetsu as being his clone, that's just what they all call each other. Not saying there's evidence against him being the original, just asking if there's solid evidence for it. The whole Zetsu issue and the different types of clones and such has become such a confusing mess.--BeyondRed (talk) 03:07, January 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * 1) They call each other "clones", simple as that. Because it is what they are. It doesn't mean they are implying they are literally clones of one specific Zetsu (White Zetsu in this case);
 * 2) The whole issue is based on what clones created by Obito said. It shouldn't be applied to first artificial humans, moreover, this case perfectly illustrates us Kishi is being very liberal with the terminology he uses, as they are also not literal clones of WZ, but his copies;
 * 3) The clones created by Obito at least look alike. But Madara's Zetsus are mostly different - there are half-formed (WZ), normally formed, even weird spirally formed Zetsus. How can they be called "clones"?? It's obvious they were forming separately around the same time. We even have pictures during Obito's flashback BEFORE White Zetsu was even introduced with several clones forming on the "tree";
 * 4) Conclusion - it is wrong to call WZ the first one.Faust-RSI (talk) 07:12, January 20, 2014 (UTC)

Zetsu did call the others clones of himself or so to speak. Why would it be impossible that he was in fact the first clone created from the tree? --Cerez 365 ™(talk) 15:20, January 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not impossible, but wouldn't the others hanging there with him be his brothers instead of clones? Those who have an exact appearance and personality as him are clones, so maybe he served as a template for the army due to having least imperfections or something, but Spiral Zetsu is far from his clone--Elveonora (talk) 15:43, January 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Even if Zetsu army soldiers are technically his copies and not clones in the exact meaning of this word (in Narutoverse terms), they still called White Zetsu their original and in the latest chapters admitted to have the same personality. Spiral Zetsu was different both appearance-wise and personality-wise, so it's safe to assume other different looking ones weren't his clones but rather his "brothers" (I wonder what happened to them?).Faust-RSI (talk) 16:38, January 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Perhaps were too weak to survive and died prematurely. Madara after all called it a failed experiment--Elveonora (talk) 16:53, January 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but we saw at least two more of them that were perfectly fine. Also, WZ said during Obito's "escape" that more of them are spying in many places.Faust-RSI (talk) 07:58, January 21, 2014 (UTC)

Except White Zetsu literally says to Obito that SZ is basically one of hisItalic text clones.--RexGodwin (talk) 20:52, January 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm aware of that, but as I've already said, Kishi is very liberal with the term "clone". Also, the pronouns in Japanese are often ambiguous, if present at all. We need Japanese expert to know for sure.Faust-RSI (talk) 07:58, January 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * What do you need to be translated? Seelentau 愛議 11:09, January 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Did WZ really said that Spiral is "one of MY clones"?Faust-RSI (talk) 11:11, January 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * He says "What's sticking to your body is my clone (boku no bunshin), so to speak". Seelentau 愛議 11:17, January 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * So, boku no bunshin is literally "my clone" with no other possible translations?Faust-RSI (talk) 11:22, January 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes. boku means I, no makes it to my and bunshin means clone. Seelentau 愛議 11:26, January 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you!! Well, it only proves that Kishi is not only bad at physics, but also in genetics/biology :) Faust-RSI (talk) 11:28, January 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's been clear for a while now that Kishimoto is not super knowledgeable in the world of science. In fact, the mere fact that he established early that one can stick a human eye into another man's eye socket and suddenly have it work without doing any work should have told you Kishimoto's stance on sciences was "LOL I DO WHAT I WANT!". I say just roll with it.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:56, January 22, 2014 (UTC)

Hahaha lol, There all clones of a clone of a clone. Original white zetsu to white zetsu clones to hashirama clone. Munchvtec 16:11, January 22, 2014 (UTC)munchvtec

Old Discussion
When he was first revealed, that grass village symbol on his chest. If you look closely its almost impossible for that to be a mistake. Just look at a up close pic like from the old discussion and you will see that the symbol is made with lines ( dark lines) while around it is just dots. I think it should be added in trivia or some thing.Munchvtec 13:26, January 28, 2014 (UTC)munchvtec

Voice in Part I
Can we be so sure it was Nobuo Tobita in part I voicing him? from the few lines he had his voice sounded WAY different from how he sounds nowadays, i dont really think it was the same guy. the old voice sounds far more deep and hoarse, akin to Sasori's Hiruko voice, Yutaka Aoyama.--RexGodwin (talk) 18:27, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Seperate Pages
I don't see why there cant be seperate pages. Munchvtec (talk) 16:42, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thinking about doing that in the German wiki, so I'm in favor of doing it here, too. Seelentau 愛議 16:58, February 12, 2014 (UTC)


 * So do we just wait for more responses? Munchvtec (talk) 16:59, February 12, 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, wait.
 * One thing I don't see brought up in these discussions is the potential difficulty in referring to both Zetsus, particularly when it comes to events from before they were established as "separate". I guess you could turn Zetsu into a disambiguation page and continue to link to it, but I always find that annoying as a reader. ~SnapperTo 17:04, February 12, 2014 (UTC)


 * then you could split this article into two sections one being the black zetsu and the other being the white zetsu. Munchvtec (talk) 17:05, February 12, 2014 (UTC)


 * That might be a bit difficult to organize, especially with references.
 * Tabs could work, keep things separate but still in the same article. ~SnapperTo 17:10, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

This keeps coming up all the time. Why do they need to be separated? --Cerez 365 ™(talk) 17:36, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I still say no. Been saying no. You can see why I say no above or in the archive. Still no. No.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:49, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

@Cerez, well, as an example now, White Zetsu is dead and the Black one is alive and a jinchuuriki now. Kinda doesn't make sense to have them together--Elveonora (talk) 18:22, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * But he wasn't dead for the entire series. They have been together far longer than they were separate. Every time Black Zetsu does something doesn't automatically mean he should suddenly get a separate page. I mean bloody hell, we aren't separating Kurama's page, and I don't think the issue was ever brought up because at the end of the day, they both were Kurama, just split in two halves and we reference them as such in the article.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:26, February 12, 2014 (UTC)


 * I would say seperate them into two differnet pages, and them keep the pages identical in text up until they split into the two half and act on their own. That's just my opinion. White Zetsu is dead, Black is still very active. As to the Kurama argument that Ultimate had, Kurama is literally the same being just two haves. White Zetsu was made from the Living Clone, but Black was made by Madaras will well after White Zetsu was done. Zelwolf (talk) 20:16, February 12, 2014 (UTC)Zelwolf

Also Kuramas appear to be similar to Mu case, they are just the same being split. Black Zetsu is nothing but Madara's will given form and life, White Zetsus are Plant Clone Hashirama's children/fruits. Black Zetsu can exist well as a goo. You could say his "Zetsu" form was nothing but a disguise. Besides his state as a parasite on WZ's body who served as a host (and now other clones do) and his "name" there's nothing "Zetsu" about him.--Elveonora (talk) 20:33, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

Again, I totally agree that the pages should be split. The only argument that I could possibly imagine against this, is the fact that they had done so much together. Well, lets consider some facts: Agreed, when creating their pages there will be some things that will overlap and bee the same, but I will simply say: "so what?" to that. Thing is, They've been separate since before Naruto tamed the Kyuubi. Frankly, anyone saying they have been together "longer" than not, that's only relevant to time within the Narutoverse. In a viewers perspective, they had more screen time separate than together. There's no real reason why the articles shouldn't be split.--NaviiGator (A.K.A.KotoSenju)-Talk-Contributions 23:38, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * They were created two separate ways.
 * They have separate abilities.
 * They are two entirely separate entities, that function separately.
 * Black Zetsu has lived longer, done more, and is the JinCh. of the Yin-Kurama.


 * I did a tab example, in case anyone's curious on how that would look.
 * This system of transclusion works nearly the way I want it to. Ideally they'd be actual redirects instead of soft redirects, but this works well enough.
 * And obviously the infoboxes would be different. ~SnapperTo 19:48, February 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * The dual infoboxes might be an obstacle, considering different types of information are stored in different ways. For example: jutsu come from the jutsu article, but classifications come from the character article. Therefore, this tabbing method might create more headaches than it's worth. ~SnapperTo 19:55, February 13, 2014 (UTC)

Kinda offtopic, but just noticed, why isn't Zetsu/Black Zetsu listed as sensor?--Elveonora (talk) 20:04, February 13, 2014 (UTC)


 * Zetsu could in theory just keep the one infobox and if we have to get stupid and separate their information, it can be done via the tabs.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 20:20, February 13, 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm still in favor of separate pages, but a White and Black Zetsu tab and keep the one page would be at least better I suppose. Zelwolf (talk) 20:56, February 13, 2014 (UTC)Zelwolf


 * The two are actually separated in order for the tabs in the example to work. Splitting isn't required for functionality, but it lowers the likelihood of somebody breaking something. ~SnapperTo 17:01, February 14, 2014 (UTC)


 * Would the entire article be in tabs &mdash; Black and White Zetsu?
 * Then why not just seperate them into different articles?--~Ultimate Supreme  16:33, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

I've always been for the separation, but I'm tired of arguing with just 2 stubborn users. Here, one of the falks kindly created sandboxes some time ago - Black Zetsu and White ZetsuFaust-RSI (talk) 08:26, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * And I'd be happy to be one less of those two stubborn editors if anybody could provide me with a valid reason for separation bead idea saying White Zetsu is dead. Clearly that is not an issue because it doesn't affect the way we treat the article at all.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 08:37, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Read my edit above.--NaviiGator (A.K.A.KotoSenju)-Talk-Contributions 18:04, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

New Skill
shouldn't it be mentioned in the ability section that black zetsu can put his black substance into the ground and cause it to come out and absorb whatever it touches and bring it back to himFanking (talk) 00:59, February 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not really. HE is the black substance. We should likely list him as being capable of absorbing chakra tho. He is Madara's copy after all--Elveonora (talk) 01:13, February 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Madara's knock-off copy though. Simply saying he's a copy would imply he can do many things he can't. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 13:58, February 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * But he is a sensor and can absorb chakra, right?--Elveonora (talk) 15:58, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

I don't know about his ability to warp himself and absorb chakra, but it probably would be worth making an article about his ability to leech onto other lifeforms like when he left his original White Zetsu body and then attached himself to Obito. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 12:21, February 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't agree I don't think that he needs an article for that It should simply be mentioned In his abilities --Admiral Sugar (talk) 18:28, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

Talking about new skills, we should definitely add his ability to create a new body mass on a whim and to get rid of it instantly.Faust-RSI (talk) 08:28, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Seperation
Is c e r e z th only on  that doesn't agree because he's just one user out of the lot that said the page should b  slit into two, I think it should also b  split it's many users against c e r e z, why does everyone bend over and listen every time he says something. Munchvtec (talk) 08:52, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Dude, such a behaviour is uncalled for. No one bends over because he says something. It's just that the bigger group isn't always right. Also, you didn't need to create a new topic just to say that. Seelentau 愛議 09:44, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * I am still vehemently against separating the page, FYI.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:05, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I'm with Cerez and TU3. I'm against the separation of the pages. I don't see the need for it. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 13:45, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

There's as much of a reason NOT to separate the two as there is not to merge gedo statue and shinju articles, exactly zero imo--Elveonora (talk) 14:16, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * For how long must I suffer as an earthly being dear Buddha? It's called having an opinion. Maybe people take me seriously because I don't walk around talking about testicle-shaped gourds...--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:08, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I don't think it should be separated either.--Hawkeye2701 (talk) 20:26, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Madara's Partner
Shouldn't Zetsu be listed as one of Madara's partner's in his infobox and vice-versa? Granted, Zetsu has a more subservient relationship to Madara, but he was still entrusted with the secrets to Madara's grand plan. Steveo920, February 18, 2014, 19:28

Aligning with Obito, betrayal towards Madara
As Black Zetsu is overshadowed by Obito, is it now confirmed that he now betrays creator? --Pat141elite (talk) 11:56, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Which manga were you reading? BZ didn't betray Madara, Obito regained control, BZ was even alarmed when Obito gutted Madara with "what's the meaning of this?"--Elveonora (talk) 12:17, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * mangareader. okay, if BZ didn't show his true colors, therefore Obito regained control. i somewhat assumed this if BZ double-crossed Madara, which I able to re-read the chapter earlier. So it's Obito who has double-crossed Madara ever since he was able to seal the Ten-Tails and becoming its jinchūriki before the latter's revival. --Pat141elite (talk) 13:25, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, the same old step into the light BS Naruto used on Nagato reached Obito as well--Elveonora (talk) 13:36, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay. But, however, the (barefooted) mystery guy that appeared on the spot where Sasuke is could be a possible threat to Obito. Although he was not seen in the recent chapter. --Pat141elite (talk) 13:51, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Arm thing
in the recent chapter I couldn't help but notice a giant arm grow out of black Zetsu goo, on Obito's side that pushed Madara back and was able to absorb the Ichibi and Hachibi into Obito. Was this some sort of new ability that either Zetsu or Obito can use Fanking (talk) 20:24, February 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Considering the flaming pattern near the edges, I think that it was an application of tailed beast chakra arms. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:32, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

Dojutsu in Zetsu
I was doing some re-reading on the past chapters and i noticed that in chapter 665(page 2), Zetsu was detaching himself from Obito and while coming off, still had the Rinnegan with him. This caused me to think that Zetsu was in possession of the Rinnegan and that he currently is in possession of the sharingan, despite still being attached to Obito. The thing that most supports my belief is that Obito is dead, all while BZetsu remains able to use Kamui.EDIT: In the most recent chapter 676, this would also mean that Obito left sharingan was actually implanted into Zetsu instead, of Obito's dead body.--Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 07:28, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * This is a bit weird. Technically, Zetsu is being "worn" by Obito, who appears to be dead (let's see how long that lasts). Obito isn't conscious, he's been controlled. I'm not sure that Zetsu trying to leave Obito before counts as him having the Rinnegan, as Obito was still in control, even forcing Zetsu to remain attached. With the Sharingan though, things seem murkier. It appears that Zetsu used Obito to Kamui out of the dimension. The closest situation regarding possession and use of kekkei genkai by another I can compare this to is Sasori with the Third Kazekage puppet. Zetsu definitely used Kamui, but he doesn't possess the Rinnegan. In my opinion, BZ's possession is a true body snatching, like say, Orochimaru's. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:14, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't follow your logic Omni about how BZ isn't a Kamui user tho. He isn't a Mokuton user then either, because to do that, he has to be "worn" by a WZ or his clones--Elveonora (talk) 19:25, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Right. Zetsu could only use mokuton due to being attached to WZ. But about the Rinnegan, it's nearly impossible to say that he did have the rinnegan as it was connected to his gooey head as he was detaching himself from Obito. As for Kamui, he should be listed as a user of both sharingan and the technique. 1) b/c of mokuton example and 2) I would think because that eye was actually open and in use, while the other wasnt.--Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 21:03, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Did you read my comment right? I'm comparing the situation to Sasori and his use of Magnet Release through a medium that has it. I agree that Zetsu used Kamui, but I'm against listing him as a Sharingan user. He was using Obito to cast it, much like Sasori used the Kazekage puppet to use Iron Sand techniques. If BZ and WZ were to have split articles, I'd be against listing BZ as a Mokuton user, since he's only done so while attached to WZ mass. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:56, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh, excuse me but im leaving out some important detail in my argument. What i really want to emphasize on is the fact that Zetsu had the rinnegan attached to him as he was leaving Obito's body. It's that the eye was coming off with Zetsu as he was leaving. And, in that one picture, the eye was literally detached from Obito. Its this single piece of evidence that I say that he's a bit more of a user of the Rinnegan and the Sharingan than Sasori is the magnet release. But, it's easy to see where one would counter-argue with "Zetsu is still attached to Obito". But we've seen the difference between Zetsu using the Kamui (literally on his own) vs. Zetsu forcing Obito to use Rinne Rebirth.--Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 22:09, May 14, 2014 (UTC)

@Omni, which raises question why isn't Sasori considered a user in the first place. A user is someone who has used something intentionally. BZ's case is not that much different from Orochimaru's soul possession now that Obito is out of the game. In a theoretical situation in which Orochimaru would gain Sasuke's body, he will not have been considered a Sharingan user, 'cause he be using other body according to you. It's as clear as day, Obito is unconscious, BZ used Kamui, means he knows how to do it and has done so.--Elveonora (talk) 22:48, May 14, 2014 (UTC)


 * Agreed with Eleve, though I do see where you're coming from, Omni. Even so, Sharingan is the medium through which Kamui is used. If Black Zetsu used Kamui (which he did), then he used a Mangekyō Sharingan too. Black Zetsu is a very odd case (jinchūriki; Mangekyō Sharingan; etc), but he is a user regardless. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:11, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

Elveo, Fox-Boss, I'm glad you two agree.--Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 01:13, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Huh. I don't quite oppose that sort of change in priciple, but it strikes me as very odd. It also puts some other possible scenarios in a weird situation. For example, if a Yamanaka Mind Body Switches someone. Is Santa a Lightning Release, Lightning Cutter user and MS/Sharingan wielder over having piloted Kakashi through the mist against Zabuza? If Ino takes over a kekkei genkai user and performs a kekkei genkai jutsu, does she get listed as a user. Does her diversion of Obito's Mokuton through the Ten-Tails earlier in the battle means she's a Mokuton user? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:26, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well No. That point is null. When Santa used MBS on Kakashi, he had already activated the Raikiri and the point of him switching places with Kakashi was so that he could use his sensory abilities to guide Kakashi through Zabuza's mist, which negated Kakashi's Sharingan. And no again, b/c Ino only manipulated Obito to change the Tentails aim. All-in-all, none of those points have any place here. But i do, however, understand what you meant by your argument. And the point is still left null. It's only b/c Zetsu is almost entirely in a different boat here. He literally has the eye implanted into him. I think you are confusing the fact that Zetsu is attached to Obito, with him being able to use the sharingan despite still being attached to him. He obviously doesnt need to be witnessed by him attempting to leave Obito's body (while taking the Rinnegan with him as 665, page 2 clearly shows) and him being attached to a mass of WZ and using Wood Release (an not connected to a live and sentient part of WZ). --Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 05:32, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

I hope necessary changes will be made accordingly asap. For Sasori, are human puppets conscious? If not, then Sasori should be listed as Magnet Release user imo, since the puppets act more or less as extensions of the puppeteer's body--Elveonora (talk) 10:46, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * My reluctance to add Sasori as a Magnet Release user is because listing him as such sort of implies that he possesses Magnet Release. It's almost like saying he's in the same situation as Yamato, except his use of Magnet Release is tool-based. We decided not to consider Tenten and KinGin as users of each of the five natures because they were being achieved through the fan. The situation is pretty much the same here. Are we simply going to revert the decision regarding the fan? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:27, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

It's not like that hasnt been done before. We have. Alot. Look at Guruguru(and i use his example very loosely) or Raiga and Ameyuri Ringo (lightning release). Each of these characters use a tool or another independent source of which they are accredited the corresponding chakra. By the rule that you are saying that is implied, neither of their pages should reflect the tool's "nature". EDIT: There are other examples in Hoki and Seimei.--Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 17:19, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Raiga and Ameyuri both had at least one Lightning Release technique that didn't involve the swords Rock Avalanche and Lightning Release: Depth Charge. What about Guruguru? The statue is a technique, not a tool. It's like Obito's use of Wood Release: Cutting Technique through the Ten-Tails. Regarding the Takumi shinobi, I haven't watched that filler in a long time, but wasn't the point of those swords that they minimized the chakra used by their wielders? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:29, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * The hypocrisy... that's not addressed to you Omni, I'm speaking generally... but people pick and choose as they see fit. So Naruto IS to be considered a user of Lava and Magnet (and composing natures) according to you guys, yet Sasori isn't a Magnet Release user by the same merit. Great consistency indeed. We either remove Naruto's borrowed natures completely or we list borrowed natures and techniques for everyone. Decide now--Elveonora (talk) 17:32, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * You've been told the problem with that reasoning enough times already, mostly by Ten-Tailed Fox, so I'll make no effort repeating him here. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:39, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Whatever I was told likely didn't make any sense, although I'd like to hear it once more before I accuse anyone of fallacies again.--Elveonora (talk) 17:48, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Now, lets not get into the Naruto chakra nature incident. Like I said earlier, Black Zetsu's case is different, much like Naruto's, in that he isn't using a tool. He literally is assimilating the abilities of the individual he's occupying.EDIT: After much review, i've reaized that this is much more like Orochimaru's (and his WZ possession) case than any of the others. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 23:11, May 15, 2014 (UTC)