Talk:Six Paths Sage Mode/Archive 3

Appearance section
There are articles on the wiki, such as Nine-Tails Chakra Mode and the appearance section of this article, that still describe Naruto's Six Paths Sage Mode to be his chakra cloak (urgh...). Naruto's Six Paths Sage Mode is his fox-toad eyes without Sage Mode's vermilion pigmentation around the eyes, correct? In order to be undeviating from that idea, I think the entire appearance section should go in the Nine-Tails Chakra Mode article (as it currently describes his chakra cloaks and not his eyes) and we should note here that Naruto's fox-toad eyes sans pigmentation have been both yellow and red depending on the chakra mode he dons. 04:18, August 14, 2018 (UTC)
 * Replying to Omnibender's argument here:
 * "Asura is what makes the distinction difficult. Based on the recent change, Naruto's Asura Kurama Mode is the result of SPSM modifying TBM, the implication being one needs both to display AKM."
 * How, exactly? He has SPS, but not SPSM. Like Obito and Madara. Concerning the recent change, I was just describing what I saw. I saw Naruto using a heightened state of Sage Mode to gather enormous amounts of natural energy through the cooperation of a Kurama avatar clone due to battling Sasuke simultaneously, and then fusing his Kurama avatar with two others to create the AKM construct, with the remaining natural energy used for the senjutsu attack he used to counter Sasuke's strongest attack. So yes, Naruto created the AKM due to having three Kurama avatars present, with the natural energy only serving to power him and his attacks up. Did not intend to give off that implication you are describing, so I'll edit it accordingly.
 * "Asura can't have TBM without being a jinchuriki, and if Asura doesn't have SPSM, he also can't have AKM."
 * But he doesn't have TBM? Nor does he have AKM because he's not a jinchūriki of Kurama. Or is Asura stated to have AKM somewhere that I didn't know about? He has his own chakra avatar with three heads and six arms, which we don't know much about aside from it having TSBs and looking similar to AKM, but it's still anyone's guess. I agree with Elve's notion that SPSM is the one thing that Naruto has, similar to Sasuke's one-eyed purple, six-tomoe Rinnegan. It's exclusive to them until shown otherwise. We haven't really seen Asura with those fox-toad eyes, so he doesn't have SPSM.
 * "I know there is a big deal made of the cross eyes without pigmentation being SPSM, but the databook entry shows him both with and without a NTCM-like chakra cloak. SPS doesn't have its own entry in the databook, it's something that is mentioned in articles where it's relevant. Rinne Sharingan is in the same situation."
 * A really big deal. I'm assuming that is the databook entry for SPSM. SPSM is just the fox-toad eyes without pigmentation irrespective of the chakra cloak being present or not, so... doesn't showing him both with and without a NTCM-like chakra cloak only support that, or am I missing something? Or are you saying that because the databook showed him with and without the cloak, we should do the same? I left the image of the Hagoromo-enhanced NTCM cloak in the article, so if anything, we are doing things just like the databoook. After the war, Naruto certainly used his NTCM cloak as his eyes are orange and his skin is glowing like all of his previous NTCMs and he does not have yellow eyes with non-glowing skin like we saw after he escaped death. Which is why what was the appearance section here is in the NTCM article. The appearance section was describing the appearance of the cloaks, and not the eyes. However, now that I think about it, I can add back the images I removed in a slideshow where Naruto's Hagoromo-enhanced cloak is in the article in order to showcase Naruto's eyes being orange after the war, if that helps. I've no problem doing that. And yes, we weren't given much with SPS or the Rinne Sharingan, unfortunately.
 * "Both Naruto and Asura need to be listed as users of whichever is considered to be the source of AKM, be it SPS or SPSM."
 * Why? Or rather, how does Asura have AKM when he is not a jinchūriki of Kurama? Naruto has his AKM, and Asura has his... "Asura Mode" chakra avatar for lack of a better term. I think the most that could be said apropos of the "source of AKM" is that Naruto, after his encounter with Hagoromo and the nine-tailed beasts, had large enough chakra reserves to be able to create and maintain the AKM, similar to how Sasuke had the chakra to suddenly use Complete Body Susanoo right after meeting Hagormo as well. Naruto used natural energy to help him do so with two other clones. I messed up giving off the implication that AKM needs SPSM (or SPS) to be created, that was my bad.
 * "Flight is shown in the SPSM databook entry, so it's something that appears to both SPS and SPSM."
 * That I did not know. Thought it was a SPS thing. I will add flight back to the SPSM page accordingly.
 * "Based on TSB databook entry, which links it to SPS, Asura has to have that in the manga as well, being the things he holds in the flashback, and Naruto only manifested his when he turned on the NTCM-like chakra cloak."
 * I don't disagree with the notion that Asura has the SPS and TSBs. And yes, Naruto only manifested his SPS and TSBs with the cloak. I don't believe Naruto used a "NTCM-like" cloak, I believe it is the NTCM cloak, or a variant of it. Naruto continued to use his NTCM cloak with SPSM during and after the war. Why it had non-glowing skin and yellow eyes, is anyone's guess. Maybe it was because of his SPS? Dunno. But if we saw Asura with that exact same cloak Naruto used against Madara, Kaguya and Sasuke, then I'd see your point, but we only saw that three-headed, six-armed "Asura Mode" construct. Whatever chakra avatar Asura used was similar, but not the same. It's like him using Amenomihashira and Naruto using the Rasengan. Similar techniques, but not the same. 22:11, August 16, 2018 (UTC)
 * Bump. 19:47, August 17, 2018 (UTC)
 * The crux of the matter is defining what Asura's chakra avatar, and I don't think there are any really good options. Either A, based on the look of Asura's chakra avatar and Naruto's AKM they're the same thing (three-faced six-armed), both Asura and Naruto need to be listed as users of SPS or SPSM, whichever is considered the source of AKM, which is difficult to determine, or B, Asura and Naruto's forms, despite looking the same are differently sourced, which is wildly speculative. Every way you look at it, something is lacking. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:33, August 17, 2018 (UTC)
 * So on one hand you people say that Asura wasn't a jinchuuriki, but on the other that he must have been or what? Why does he matter? We know so little about him. We should just write down what we know. 'papa 'Goromo blessed Asura with SPS as the latter manifested TSB'

If your point is that we know only of 3 ways of getting SPS (TT jinch, SPSM, Tenseigan/Hamura's chakra whatever BS) then Asura definitely wasn't a TT jinch, definitely didn't have Tenseigan thus SPSM seems like the logical option, 'cept not once in the manga or the anime did we see him with cross shaped eyes and what not. Not seen =/= not true, I know, but too speculative to claim such. Even if Asura had SPSM, the novel suggests that one still needs chakras from all the TB, SPSM being sort of a Sage Mode + pseudo-TT jinch mode hybrid or so. So either we state speculative unconfirmed information, or we leave it alone and simply assume there might be a 4th way and state 'x and y because z by undisclosed means' and that's it.--Elve Talk Page 10:37, August 18, 2018 (UTC)
 * Asura's form has to come from some sort of body strength based source, him having his father's "body" and all. That being the case, Asura's form should be confined to only Asura's article if we can't pinpoint where it comes form. Something unrelated to Asura, but that I think we should also point out is that aside from when he first awakened it, Naruto's never used only SPSM (only the eyes changing), he always used it with NTCM, kinda like him never using regular Wind Release: Rasengan after developing Rasenshuriken. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:46, August 18, 2018 (UTC)


 * "The crux of the matter is defining what Asura's chakra avatar, and I don't think there are any really good options. Either A, based on the look of Asura's chakra avatar and Naruto's AKM they're the same thing (three-faced six-armed), both Asura and Naruto need to be listed as users of SPS or SPSM, whichever is considered the source of AKM, which is difficult to determine, or B, Asura and Naruto's forms, despite looking the same are differently sourced, which is wildly speculative. Every way you look at it, something is lacking."
 * "Asura's form has to come from some sort of body strength based source, him having his father's 'body' and all. That being the case, Asura's form should be confined to only Asura's article if we can't pinpoint where it comes form."
 * I think I'm beginning to understand Omnibender's argument (if I'm still not getting it Omni, forgive me). Indra inherited his father's "eyes", so to speak (the Sharingan), and gains Susanoo, which is a Sharingan technique. Asura inherited his father's "body" (Six Paths Senjutsu), and gets his unique chakra avatar using the TSBs, the latter of which can be accessed through SPS.
 * ---This is where things get speculative---
 * So rather, like how Sasuke and Indra's Susanoo come from the Sharingan, Naruto and Asura's very similar three-headed/six-armed chakra avatars may come from SPS, which both have along with the TSBs. If I'm understanding Omni's concern correctly, the whole part about Naruto's AKM should not be in the SPSM article, but perhaps the SPS article (and it's already in the NTCM article, as AKM needs to be documented somewhere). When I give it more thought, AKM being more tied to SPS and not SPSM is actually more consistent, given:


 * Asura has a similar mode to AKM and only has SPS
 * Just like the SPS back pattern and the TSB, Naruto did not use AKM after the war and just used regular TBM
 * For Obito and Madara, after becoming the TT's jinchūriki, they got SPS and TBM, which make the latter two related, thus Naruto's SPS and his AKM, the latter of which is a powered-up TBM, must be related as well.
 * ---End of speculation---
 * SPS and AKM being related is option A that Omni alludes to. Option A may be speculative, but makes sense. AKM being related to SPSM, which is option B, makes even less sense. So currently, the article is representing option B.
 * So Omni, to modify option A that you brought up, how about this course of action without any speculation in it: Naruto and Asura's modes are similar and not the same, both are listed as SPS users, and essentially, the AKM part of this SPSM article must be removed, as it implies SPSM is the source of AKM, which makes no sense as Asura had a similar chakra avatar, but not SPSM. Is that what you want? Because now that I've given it more thought, that course of action makes sense and I agree with it.
 * So now Omni and Elve, what about the other points I made in my second post under this topic, to make another TL; DR:


 * I fully believe that after the war, Naruto clearly used NTCM and TBM in conjunction with SPSM as his skin was glowing and his eyes were orange. So I think the appearance section that was describing the cloaks Naruto used during and after the war should remain in the NTCM article and that appearance section which was essentially describing NTCM and not SPSM shouldn't come back to this article.
 * However, as I said earlier, I am willing to add back the images I removed in the recent edit and place them in a slideshow where Naruto's Hagoromo-enhanced cloak is in the article in order to showcase Naruto's eyes being orange after the war.
 * As I also said earlier and fully realize now, I fucked up giving off the implication that AKM needs SPSM to be created (option B that Omni alluded to). AKM part must be removed. It's more likely SPS is needed to use AKM (though this isn't to imply that the AKM part here needs to be moved to the SPS article - as this assertion may make more sense, it's still on the speculative side of things).
 * I'll add flight back to this SPSM article, as I was not aware it was listed under SPSM until Omni mentioned it. And also:
 * "Something unrelated to Asura, but that I think we should also point out is that aside from when he first awakened it, Naruto's never used only SPSM (only the eyes changing), he always used it with NTCM, kinda like him never using regular Wind Release: Rasengan after developing Rasenshuriken."


 * Sure, I've no problem doing this either.
 * Last point: if we want to move the AKM part here into the SPS article and perhaps pinpoint Asura's mode to SPS, I've no problem doing that as to me it makes perfect sense now, but I understand if it's a bit speculative and we choose to err on the side of caution.
 * Thoughts? 07:03, August 19, 2018 (UTC)
 * Bump. 02:18, August 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * Go get'em tiger.--Elve Talk Page 07:57, August 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * All of this, yes. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:26, August 21, 2018 (UTC)

RSM MISCONCEPTIONS DISPELLED 2.0[LONG READ]
There are many misconceptions regarding rsm. I’ll be addressing 9 of those claims in this thread. Since there’s far more information available today regarding this topic than there was 3-5 years ago, the goal here is to use that new context to shed some light and gain a better understanding of the topic(s). Let’s jump right in.

Claim 1: ‘There is no mention of biju chakra in the rsm databook page/rsm doesn’t use the biju.’

Claim 2: ‘Rsm is determined by Naruto’ eyes.’

Ok first I’ll say this: The databook is meant to be used as a point of reference. It’s pages are solely informational. That includes the main texts, images and the image descriptions. Each play their part in offering context and information about a topic. Keep this in mind.

That said, let’s look at the Rsm Databook Page, specifically the image highlighted in blue. At first glance, the picture just shows Naruto kicking the TSO away from guy. Now many people believe this alone is enough to reach the conclusion that Naruto is using rsm. But that’s WRONG, and here’s why.

That conclusion did not account for the image’ caption, and essentially replaced it with an interpretation or personal belief of what is being shown. This creates a measure of inaccuracy, which then leads to a compromised understanding of the entire page and the topic itself. The good news is we can avoid that margin or error with a working translation of the image caption to extract the intended meaning. Adhering to the PROVIDED CAPTION makes for better comprehension and understanding of both the image and the overall topic of the databook page. This is common knowledge.[www.587.claudiastrong.com/good-reads/cutlines/]  

So here’s what the image description states, highlighted in green:

‘Kicking the "Truth-Seeking Ball"! Exceeding te Kurama Mode, a feat accomplished by a huge chakra.’

Ok so based on the PROVIDED CAPTION we know that the image of Naruto kicking a TSO is a feat that required chakra greater than kcm. What does this mean?

Well for starters, Claim 1 just got debunked. By simply reading what the caption states, you learn that naruto’ kick required chakra levels greater than what Naruto uses for kcm, which at that point was half of kurama.

Secondly, we know that during the war Naruto did have more chakra than just half kurama, as he also had fragments of the remaining 8 biju. Naruto had acquired their chakra over the course of the war, and by time him and hagoromo had their initial meeting, hagoromo states that Naruto has met multiple conditions required for the power he's about to receive. One of which he, Shukaku, Gyuki and Kurama agreed on was having chakra from each Biju. Hagoromo goes on to call them out by name, further recognizing their collective presence. This is important because hagoromo 'believed that the bond known as cooperation was true power'. He also knew that ashura gained power through cooperation, and that he sees naruto as 'quite similar to ashura.’ Now granted those fragments are small compared to an entire half of kurama. So much so that Naruto nearly died twice when he had them(once when madara took his half of kurama and again later during vote2 after he lost his arm), but if they’re working together and cooperating ‘they aren’t lacking in power.’

Ok so Naruto had chakra from each biju, what’s the big deal?

Well having those 9 chakras and then mixing them results the juubi’ chakra. It’s why akatsuki were on missions to capture the jinchuriki. They were after each biju, specifically their power/chakra. When chakra from each biju mixes, you create a greater power. That power is the juubi’ own chakra, also called rikudo senjutsu. It’s the exact power both obito and madara gained after sealing each biju(or their fragmented power) inside of the gedo statue, and then into themselves. This made them become juubi jinchuriki which granted them the power to achieve rikudo sagehood through transformation. Naruto was also consider a juubi jinchuriki because with cooperation of those 9 fragments he achieved the same power, juubi chakra aka rikudo senjutsu.

What’s the significance of rikudo senjutsu?

The same way any other sage has to gather senjutsu or sage chakra before achieving sagehood, mixing those 9 chakra was Naruto’ method of ‘gathering’ rikudo senjutsu that he uses to enter rsm. Simply put, juubi chakra is rikudo sage chakra. The proof of this is in manga volume 69, chapter 666. Here we see obito take some biju chakra from the juubi inside of madara, ‘only [grabbing] a small piece of one tail and eight tails’. On page 6, Madara goes on to say that because obito was once a sage he was able to take some sage chakra from madara. Now obito has no prior sagehood experience, so the only thing madara could be talking about is rikudo sagehood. So the fragments of chakra that obito took from madara was rikudo sage chakra aka juubi chakra. Which makes sense because hagoromo literally divided the juubi into the 9 biju. Meaning obito and madara were both rikudo sages during the 4th war, and became so using all 9 biju in its regathered form; the juubi.

Furthermore prior to entering rsm, Naruto’ power starts gradually rising. Madara noticed this steady increase which was immediately followed with feats by Naruto that isn’t possible using only half kurama and the pieces of one and eight tails obito took from him. This increasing power allowed Naruto to kick the TSO, dodge limbo, use lava rasenshuriken, this wasn’t just those three chakra in play, this was Naruto gaining new power as he tapped into all 9 biju chakra, one through nine tails.

Naruto’ power continues to rise then he enters rsm. At that point Madara knew what naruto’ increasing power was. He knew because once it fully manifested, he realized that same power he had himself because of his sage transformation. Naruto had been producing and increasing his level of rikudo senjutsu. Debunking claim 1, again.

Ashura’ case is no different. Ashura received rikudo senjutsu and rsm through ninshu(Wait really? YES). Hagoromo, who was the juubi jinchuriki at the time, used ninshu in cooperation with Ashura, shared his rikudo sage chakra and gave him rsm. This is supported by:

• Hagoromo’ account of Ashura’ rise to power during his talk with Naruto. His description of what happened matches ninshu through and through(first scan green highlight).

• The reason Hagoromo could recall the event, He was obviously present when they clashed. So he had to have linked with Ashura via ninshu. On top of that, the qualities that made hagoromo choose Ashura as the leader of ninshu are the same for why he was chosen to receive rsm. Go figure.

• The way ninshu was stated and shown to work. Between Madara’ statement, Naruto sharing kurama chakra with the allied shinobi forces, and minato sharing his half of kurama with Naruto, ninshu is shown to be very much capable of having hagoromo cooperate with Ashura by sharing the juubi’ chakra aka rikudo sage chakra.

Now before you jump out the window screaming how the first scan says he awaken power, he rivaled Indra. To that I say yes, he in fact did. Through ninshu, the linked chakra from those around him all went to Ashura, and inside of him awaken said powers(red highlight).

That includes hagoromo who had just passed the torch of Ninshu to him. Proving outright that Ashura needed the juubi’ chakra/power in order enter rsm.

Now let’s take another look at the moment Naruto becomes a rikudo sage. It is much like the moment madara and obito underwent their transformation to become rikudo sages. Each had the hallmarks of rikudo senjutsu, which are 9 tomoe and rinnegan appearing on the back, as well as TSOs floating behind them. So we see that even when the methods are different, rikudo sagehood was achieved and verified both visually and verbally using the same rubric, without any mention of eyes. This is how canon proves successful rikudo sagehood.

Back during training in mount myoboku, when Naruto gathers senjutsu, rings are shown around his eyes proving successful toad sagehood. This solidifies that rikudo sagehood and toad sagehood have different verification, debunking claim 2 outright.

Claim 3: ‘That greater chakra that Naruto used to kick the TSO was his half of hagoromo’ chakra, not the juubi’.’

If that were true, then hokage Naruto should still be using rsm. Episode 65 of boruto anime proves he(and presumably Sasuke) still has rikudo chakra. So according to that claim, hokage Naruto has all the same power that he did during the 4th war. If that’s true then his modes should be identical, but they aren’t. Hokage Naruto’ Modes are noticeably different and it’s because he now lacks rikudo sage chakra, which is the chakra he used to kick madara’ TSO.

Claim 4: ‘Hokage Naruto still using rsm, it just looks different because he doesn’t have the biju.’

This claim contradicts itself. During the war, the biju were Naruto’ source of rikudo sage chakra. Hokage Naruto doesn’t have that power, we can prove this by taking a complete look at all versions of hokage Naruto’ modes and search for canonical verification for rsm. That being 9 tomoes and rinnegan appearing on his back and TSOs floating behind him.

While you’re about to do your visual comparison, be sure to look at everything thing. Including his back(where cloaks designs are prominent), stomach(where the seal is), shoulders, and the backs of their hands. Pay attention to all of it while looking out for proper verification.

First up is Kurama mode. Here is Naruto' 'Half' Kurama Mode and "Complete Kurama Mode". Here is hokage Naruto’ movie "Chakra Mode". Here is hokage Naruto' anime Kurama Mode. As hokage, Naruto speaks only to kurama on the Biju psyche plane multiple times in gaiden, later Momoshiki senses only Kurama inside naruto, and we also know momoshiki extracted chakra from only Kurama@4:40. Like I said, all this proves the involvement a single Biju, kurama.

Now compare that to rsm Naruto. You could easily spot the difference. This Naruto wields a power the others don’t, rikudo sage chakra. Which he gets from all 9 biju, not just kurama. So not only does hokage Naruto lack evidence of rikudo sage chakra, but all his designs make him out to be using the same ksm as he did during the war, or the equivalent of, now that he has full/complete kurama.

Claim 5: ‘No Sage Rings = Rsm.’

While there are times where hokage Naruto doesn’t have rings around his eyes like rsm Naruto doesn’t, it’s moot since canon verifies rikudo sagehood without any consideration for eyes. Again, you don’t verify rikudo sagehood using eyes. On top of that Naruto has gone without rings around his eyes while being in kurama sage mode and not rsm.

Naruto gaiden chapter 700+3 page 11: Naruto activates sage mode, rings appear around his eyes.

Naruto gaiden chapter 700+3 page 18: Naruto deactivates sage mode.

Naruto gaiden chapter 700+4 page 234: Naruto activates kurama sage mode, no rings are present.

Boruto Episode 38 @11:06, here Naruto starts off entering his part 1 initial kurama cloak, then progresses into kurama sage mode. Again no rings appear around his eye.

In both cases there are 0 signs of Rikudo sage chakra being used, so this debunks his eyes being indicative of or exclusive to rsm. Plus Naruto never used a part 1 jinchuriki cloak on himself during the war let alone to enter rsm, thats what he gave to the 40k members of alliance. Furthermore shin clones, byakuya thieves on a train, nor a few jonin that were being trained during graduation exams aren’t dangerous enough to warrant rsm. They didn’t warrant a kage summit like kinshiki and Momoshiki did either. To restate, these are examples of kurama sage mode.

‘So why doesn’t he have rings like rsm Naruto?

The explanation is actually simply. Just as Naruto can gather nature energy, so can the biju. Kurama proved this during naruto’ clash with Sasuke’ amped indra arrow. Right before the clash, Kurama gathered a massive amount of nature energy, ‘everything that’s available’, which is easily far more than Naruto ever amassed at once on his own to date. Kurama gives that energy to Naruto, and clearly Naruto balanced all that energy since he isn’t stone by now, yet he never gets those rings around his eyes. Years later, naruto gathers far less nature energy without kurama’ cooperation, and rings are back around his eyes.

Conclusion: If there aren’t rings around hokage Naruto’ eyes when he reaches ksm, it means that sage chakra is being amassed by kurama. If there are rings, Naruto himself is gathering that chakra. There you have it, you no longer have to cling to assumption that lack of rings automatically means rsm. It has been debunked. Hokage Naruto’ lack of rings around his eyes don’t verify rsm, it verifies his cooperation with kurama when entering ksm. No more no less.

Plus hokage Naruto, even without rings around his eyes, has 0 feats exclusive to rsm or indicative of rikudo sage chakra, because he’s really in ksm. We haven’t seen flight, TSOs, plus no communication or cooperation with the other 8 biju. That’s because he can’t use their chakra at the moment since they’re vestiges.

Claim 6: ‘Naruto still has and uses the biju/hagoromo called him the meeting place.’

During the time period of shikamaru’ novel, which take place years after 4th war and before the last movie, which is also canon, Naruto’ former small pieces of each biju have become vestiges. While both ‘vestige’ and ‘small piece’ describe low quantities, the two aren’t inherently or necessarily equal. This nuance is easily explainable.

The biju fragments inside Naruto started off as small pieces. Similarly, everyone in the alliance was given a small amount of kurama chakra from Naruto. Each of those fragmented chakra shrunk down to functionless levels. This only happened after they were used, the chakra didn’t just disappear without serving a purpose. This exact thing happened to Naruto' 1-8 tails fragments,, and again after he met his parents chakra to reseal and control kurama. The key here is to realize how the alliance got those depleted chakras back to functional levels; and it’s because they relied on the actual biju. It was Naruto, who used the half of kurama inside edo minato, who delegated more chakra to those 40k fragments among the alliance. None of the alliance was able to gain more kurama chakra on their own or without the help of kurama himself. Also once Kushina and Minato’ chakra ran out, they weren’t around to replenish it. Thankfully Naruto got to see Minato again and relay a message to Kushina. Knowing this, Naruto can’t revitalize his lost 1-8 tails chakra on his own. Just like the alliance, Naruto' depleted fragments must be replenished by an actual biju or at the very least a larger fragment of their chakra. Hokage Naruto has yet to do this in canon, so those vestiges remain reduced in both usability and functionality just like the kurama’ depleted fragments were inside the members of alliance before naruto aided them, and like Naruto’ parents chakra became after they were used against kurama.

Since some may not know it’s meaning, let’s take look at the word itself. Vestige means something is missing and/or lost, and from that lost item only a trace or a sign remains. It is the final remaining piece of something that no longer exists.

Examples of vestiges are:

• Footprints: indicating that a person was once there.

• Hieroglyphs: remains of a lost language and society.

• The last two drops of milk in a carton: indicating it’s no longer full.

So it should be clear that a vestige represents a significantly small trace of its former self. Since we know where the biju went after the war, back to their natural homes, they aren’t lost. What is lost are the fragments inside Naruto or the majority of their power. What remains are the psychic connections between him and them. The same connection Gaara proved he had with shukaku during their recent conversation, despite Gaara also not having any biju chakra. That’s the extent of the capability of those vestiges. As fragments, their functionality started off limited because they were too low to sustain Naruto’ life, further proving they had a specific purpose which was help Naruto achieve rikudo sagehood. Still, over time(about 2 year) they’ve shrank into what they are now: vestiges.

Going back to the novel page, it was established very clearly that Naruto had the cooperation and power of only kurama. Sakura asked about a singular ‘tailed beast.’ Few sentences later, narration states ‘in keeping the tailed beast.’ That’s also singular, meaning one biju, kurama.

So Naruto has no real way to use those depleted biju chakra, if he even has any left. They’re too small for anything other than communication, which garra has shown more feats of than Naruto.

Claim 7: ‘Naruto was flying in the last and flew twice in boruto. Once to catch a train and again to save Sasuke from momoshiki’ attack.’

Naruto can only fly in rsm, neither of those instances depict flight. If you believe it did, then you must also believe Naruto could fly before he even met with hagoromo. In truth, Naruto’s only using kurama the way he’s always been able to. It was even stated in the last guidebook: ‘Caption for Naruto in Kurama chakra mode: The Shishou Fuuin becomes visible, and his chakra overflows like flames.’

Naruto uses kurama as a propellant, no different from the flames of a jet engine.

Claim 8: ‘Naruto adds kcm cloak to his rsm.’

Rsm is one mode. Rikudo Sage chakra grants both tailed beast power and sage power. Obito used juubi chakra arms and bijudama, indicative of the tailed beast power. Obito Madara used sage chakra and sage jutsu indicative of sage power. Plus the juubi is nature energy itself, and was gathering more of that energy since it’s resurrection during the war. Having both powers already makes the claim 8 redundant.

Naruto also displayed both biju mode traits and sage mode traits when using rikudo sage chakra, proven by his increased sensory and him utilizing rikudo sage chakra and TSOs for several bijudama. His rsm only resembles his previous kurama mode because Naruto doesn’t physically have the juubi inside him, he has kurama instead. Being the largest chakra and the only actual biju inside Naruto at the time, Kurama logically contributed more to the rikudo sage chakra that was used to enter rsm. This was proven when kurama gathered a massive amount of nature energy and sent it to Naruto during vote2. This is why naruto’ rsm manifests with noticeable influence from kurama.

Plus last guidebook makes it crystal clear that during the movie Naruto used kurama mode with sage mode. ‘Kurama Chakra Mode Naruto exhibits overwhelming power when borrowing massive amounts of chakra from Kurama, who is sealed within him. Furthermore, when used in conjunction with “sennin mode,” it drastically increases his sensory ability and the power of the ninjutsu he employs…!!’

Proving that databooks can and do state when multiple forms are used at once. This is not the case when Naruto uses rsm, nor is it the case when madara and obito undergo rikudo sage transformation. It is a single power.

Claim 9: ‘If Sasuke gets to keep his rinnegan Naruto gets to keep rsm.’

Despite not being confirmed in canon, I agree. That said, the issue I have with this logic is idea that rinnegan and rsm are on equal grounds and have the same requirements, they don’t. Madara alone is proof of this, he awakened rinnegan and rikudo sagehood at different times using different powers. Rinnegan was with rikudo chakra, rikudo sagehood was with rikudo sage chakra. This is essentially what I’ve been explaining on this thread. So while Sasuke still has rikudo chakra and can use his rinnegan, Naruto doesn’t have rikudo sage chakra and can’t use rsm. That is the difference.

So you’re saying Naruto lost rsm?

No, I’m not. Naruto still has rsm, he just doesn’t have the rikudo sage chakra to enter that mode. To better help you understand my point, consider this:

Since his death, Minato hasn’t used sage mode for nearly 17 years, yet the moment he gathers the required sage chakra, he enters the mode without difficultly. This is directly comparable to hokage Naruto who himself hasn’t used rsm in quite some time, over a decade. You’ll see that Naruto is in much of the same situation and is more like his father than previously thought. Now you wouldn’t say Minato lost his sage mode because he didn’t use it for all that time. No, he’d still be classified as a sage. In the same manner, you’d be wrong to say Naruto lost his rikudo sage mode just because he hasn’t used it since 4th war. So while I’m sure there are those who read this entire thread holding the idea in their head that I think Naruto lost rsm, that isn’t my claim but more importantly that was never proven. In truth, the same way Minato regathered sage chakra and reentered sage mode, Naruto just has to regather rikudo sage chakra before reentering rsm, like he did during the 4th war.

Now I want to make something very clear. We know that rsm is form given to Naruto by hagoromo. We see it in the manga and we have databook to confirm it. That said, I nor this thread claims that the juubi gave Naruto rsm or anything like that. I’ve simply proven that rikudo sagehood requires rikudo sage chakra, which is identical to juubi chakra.

So yeah, that’s most of what I wanted to address. If you made this far you’re insane, as I ended up typing way more than I thought I did. While many things have been addressed and established here, much of it currently has no proper representation on the respective wiki pages. That’s why this mega thread exists, so that the information presented makes it onto those pages with the necessary edits updates and changes. After being fact checked of course. Anyways, Thanks For Reading.

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki (talk) 07:13, September 29, 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree with you that Hokage Naruto doesn't use SPSM/RSM whatever. I suppose the eyes was the main argument, but your explanation actually makes perfect sense, I actually got the very same idea even before reading what you wrote, that the eye pigment may not be present because it's Kurama who gathered natural energy at those times.--Elve Talk Page 10:45, September 29, 2018 (UTC)

Exactly, rikudo sagehood isnt verified with eyes. Obito and Madara had the juubi who was gathering nature energy since its rebirth, Naruto used kurama to do the same, and from time to time still does. I updated the evidence for claims 1 & 2, I accounted for ashura’ rikudo sage chakra and rsm. Plus based on my own findings, it makes sense to say that hagoromo’ rikudo sagehood was of the transformation variety. Databook for juubi coffin seal draw direct comparison between obito’ and hagoromo’ power post becoming jinchuriki. The same was done in shikamaru’ novel. Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki (talk) 19:14, September 29, 2018 (UTC)

Madara SPSM User
After Madara absorbed the Shinju(All 9 TB) he awakened SPSM. The requirements are sage mode, which he absorbed with the Hashirama implant, and all 9 tailed beast. The reason Obito never had it is because he never had a base sage mode like Naruto or Madara. The proof I see is some of Obito's techniques may have used Six Paths Senjutsu but they were never preceded by "Sage Art:", indicated a Six Paths Sage Mode technique. Both Madara and Naruto did this, indicated they were in Six Paths Sage Mode. Another unstated ability of SPSM may be heightened ability of Nature Transformation or Kekkei Genkai, which is seen by Madara's use of Storm release and Naruto's Rasenshuriken variants. The last point may be speculation but the first two points are solid with proof from the manga.--Shotcolla7 (talk) 23:30, October 2, 2018 (UTC)STC7
 * Only Naruto was stated to have Six Paths Sage Mode in the databook, while both Madara and Obito were stated to have achieved Six Paths Senjutsu through the Six Paths Ten-Tails Coffin Seal.--Mangekyō Sharingan Kakashi.svg 05:21, October 3, 2018 (UTC)
 * Read the loooong topic above. Seems like everyone is having their very own interpretation about these things... just shows how little we know about it and lots of things we say without complete certainty.--Elve Talk Page 08:12, October 3, 2018 (UTC)

While madara called his jinchuriki power ‘Sage Mode’, we know he underwent sage transformation. The mode and transformation are different methods to reach the same point, rikudo sagehood. That said, your alleged requirements for rsm is wrong, and obito is why. Obito has no prior experience with sagehood. Yet he attains rikudo sagehood. Secondly, TSOs in itself are proof of rikudo sagehood. Both were made evident in chapter 666.Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki (talk) 15:14, October 4, 2018 (UTC)