Talk:Sage Art: Lava Release Rasenshuriken

Collaboration Technique
Seeing as Naruto is using Son's pre-made Lava chakra to form this, it should be a collaboration technique between the two of them, right?--BeyondRed (talk) 17:54, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Nope. Son's chakra is inside Naruto, they're different entities, but Son isn't physically there performing the technique. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:58, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I see it more like Naruto using Son's chakra to create the jutsu...sort of like Hinata using the chakra given by Naruto to power up her Eight Trigrams Vacuum Palm against the Ten-Tails.--JOA20 (talk) 17:59, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * By this logic all of Gaara's sand techniques are collaboration ones too.--Elveonora (talk) 18:00, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * 'course it's a collab jutsu. Son gives Naruto the chakra, Naruto sets it free. How's that not collaboration? Naruto could not perform it on his own. Seelentau 愛議 18:10, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Hm.... let me reconsider. I guess Naruto can't merge Earth and Fire himself.... or perhaps he can, but he doesn't know Doton and Katon anyway, so yeah, no KKG in his case, but how are you sure about Roshi?--Elveonora (talk) 18:15, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * And Gaara on his own wouldn't have been able to control sand if he had never been Shukaku's host, that doesn't mean every sand technique he did as a host is a collab either, as you argued yourself. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:19, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * There are many things we do understand all the rules of, including this topic, but also extending to what is a pseudo-JK in all forms, what truly makes a JK, etc. Right now, we may get an answer, so let's wait before saying what kind of technique it is as far as collabs as concerned. --Taynio (talk) 04:15, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

i would define a collaboration Jutsu as "two or more techniques that are being used simultaneously which give each other a positive, negative, or neutralizing effect". Since it's only one technique, but two seperate chakras, its technically not a collaboration jutsu in my eyes (just collaborationist chaka). but then i still suggest we have a higher up come and clear this up. Iowndisciti (talk) 04:26, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

Wind Release
What should we say about the Wind Release. Naruto calls it only Lava Release, but there are these shuriken-like blades that remind of Rasenshuriken.--JOA20 (talk) 17:59, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * There is no Wind Release involved, otherwise it would be stated in the technique's name.--Elveonora (talk) 18:01, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Elve: I don't mean to be antagonistic, because I realize we got into it a little to heated with the whole Truth-Seeking Balls thing, but that is the worst logic I've ever seen aplied to anything. It has Wind Release mixed in for sure. Those blades are slicing through the Shinju like a hot knife through butter. Lava doesn't do that. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:02, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Chidori doesn't have "Lightning Release" in its name, but it's very obviously a Lightning Release technique. The shuriken part of this technique is clearly Wind Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:04, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Why do you assume those blades are unique to Fuuton? For all we know they are red and hot this time--Elveonora (talk) 18:06, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because Lava doesn't cut. It doesn't make for good blades either. Wind is the only nature that does that. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:09, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm with Elve-kun on this one. Those blades weren't described as a result of the wind release. Seelentau 愛議 18:10, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * And again I say, when Lava can cut anything I'll agree with you. But it doesn't. Wind is the cutting nature. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:12, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

You would have a point Foxie if we saw Naruto making a WR:RS first and then asking for Son's chakra, except he made it whole in his palm as Lava Release--Elveonora (talk) 18:14, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * If what TTF says is true, then how come Naruto doesn't create a fully new element (kekkei tōta, fire+wind+earth)?--JOA20 (talk) 18:15, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because Dust Release is the merger of earth, fire and wind chakra, not lava and wind. And even if Son has the ability to merge fire and earth into lava, Naruto doesn't have the ability (as far as we know), to merge either lava and wind, or earth, fire and wind. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:17, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * (HOLYS CRAP PEOPLE! EDIT CONFLICTS >_< /rant jk) Here's how I see it. See if this makes sense, because it may not xD Naruto isn't having to mold Lava Release. He's making a Fūton Rasenshuriken and then adding in the chakra Son pre-molded for him. I mean the blades cut through a tree. Lava doesn't do that even in the fictional depictions that Kishi made. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:18, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Also it's as same as Naruto and Sasuke's collaboration technique, it's not Shakuton. It's just simply Fūton and Enton. By the way, Foxy-sama was right, Naruto created the Rasenshuriken firstly and then he mixed it with Son's chakra. — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 18:21, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

@Shakmoot, where you do see that? I see the contrary, he asked for chakra and made LR: Rasenshuriken. The way I see it is that Naruto made only the Rasengan and then added the lava nature to it--Elveonora (talk) 18:22, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * You explain to me how lava cuts anything and I'll agree with you. The blades cut the tree and there is no sign of a burning effect. Hell, the smoke is coming off the central sphere only, not the blades. The cutting, people, is the decision maker. Not the name. No one is arguing if Lava is involved or if Naruto made it with lava. The point is lava doesn't cut, Rasenshuriken is a wind-based technique, so logic dictates that he mixed Lava from Son with his Fūton Rasenshuriken, and we get this love child technique. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:25, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) Yes. It was Lava Release Rasenshuriken, not Lava Release Rasengan or Lava Release Rasentectonic plate. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:26, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Elve-kun: Does that mean the Rasenshuriken isn't a completed technique? Or he created the Rasenshuriken and mixing it with Son's chakra simultaneously? Sorry I couldn't understand it perfectly. But still agreed with Foxy-sama. — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 18:30, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

@Omni, so you mean to tell me that Rasengan + Fire/Water/Earth/Lightning wouldn't shape it into a shuriken but a square or a triangle? ...--Elveonora (talk) 18:33, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not into a shuriken, no, I don't. An Earth Release Rasengan would make no sense having something that looks like cutting, and if at least one nature transformation would probably turn into something different, why wouldn't the others? We were shown that the shape transformation turned the wind chakra into tiny blades by Tsunade, the very fact that other natures have different effects means that the shape transformation would turn them into something else, ergo not a shuriken. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:43, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * The fact that the "molten rock" appearance didn't spread to the blades is proof enough that more than Lava is at work in that technique. And. For the millionth time, I'll say: Lava. Doesn't. Cut. Agreed with Omni. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:46, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, okay... then add Fuuton too and list rasenshuriken as parent if you must--Elveonora (talk) 18:50, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Thankfully it reached a conclusion without me. But I'm surprised no one put more emphasis on the "rasenSHURIKEN" part. The Fuuton portion comes from the shuriken naming. Not all collab/combination techniques are like Fuuton, Katon, Doton: blah blah blah blah blah. Some even just say something a la Suiton: Water Something Cannon Blast (not a real technique), but would use Fuuton and Suiton. But it's definitely the shuriken part we need to look for to determine the type of technique, based on the rules of naming we've seen in the past for multiple chakra natures.

That being said, "doesn't cut" works, too, lol. --Taynio (talk) 04:22, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

The thing is, Rasengan itself is strictly chakra alone. While Rasenshuriken has only been shown as a variation that includes an element with it, theoretically Rasenshuriken can be only chakra. That is probably why Naruto calls it FUUTON: Rasenshuriken. Here there is no including the Fuuton Element, but rather Lava. Onto the main point here, Lava may be the centralized part of it, however in the end it IS chakra. The swirling around it don't necessarily have to be of the Fuuton element but may just be regular (or sage) chakra being pulsed around it. It does not HAVE to be Lava OR Wind spiraling around the Rasengan to make the Rasenshuriken. Koriami (talk) 15:03, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Its wind. Rasenshuriken is a WIND element technique (it required wind to even take a shuriken shape in the first place, so the "regular chakra argument is as bogus as they come) and this technique is only Rasenshuriken with added Lava. Its Lava and Wind. There we go. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 15:17, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * "Fuuton: Rasenshuriken" is wind. We have not seen any proof that Rasenshuriken BY ITSELF is impossible. Nor have we been given any reason to believe that it is impossible. Naruto created the technique after learning to manipulate the Fuuton element, so naturally he included it into the design of the jutsu. However showing that the Lava Release Rasenshuriken CAN EXIST, merely leads me to believe that the Rasenshuriken technique is possible without an element attributed to it, just like its base move the "Rasengan." And if that is the case, which it appears to be, it is entirely possible for Lava Release Rasenshuriken to exist WITHOUT the Fuuton element included by producing regular (or sage) chakra for the spiraling around it. This chakra can cut if manipulated in a way that allows it to (or in other words, in the way the Rasenshuriken would require). If this was as cut and dry as you are trying to make it sound there would be no need for a discussion about it. Koriami (talk) 16:50, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * You missed the entire point. Wind Release is required to make it a shuriken-shape. That alone debunks your entire paragraph. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 16:57, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

How?
The chapter isn't even released yet; merely in raw. I thought adding information was against the Spoiler Policy and we waited until the full manga translated was released On Tues/Wed/Thurs --KiumaruHamachi (talk) 23:09, April 12, 2014 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi
 * Thread:122093.--JOA20 (talk) 23:12, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

There's already a discussion for this in a chat room forum. Munchvtec (talk) 23:17, April 12, 2014 (UTC)