Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-30323490-20180607192958/@comment-34194151-20180905190940

@Cleoina

Idk if it's the consensus (I doubt it because tobirama is underrated due to powerscaling retcon) but I think it's obvious that Tobirama> base minato, though he would lose to the kyuubi variant. Minato's only edge is raw speed and better FTG versatility. But it doesn't matter that he is faster because tobirama has shown incredible reaction feats, he traded blows with juubito, and took advantage of his edo tensei immortality. if he didn't have incredible reflexes, he wouldn't have been able to even touch juubito in that encounter, and juubito is a far faster entity than minato. He also showed quicker decision making than minato, such as when he sent a clone to grab the exploding truth seeking ball. He is also the better strategist, likely due to his superior combat experience and greater reservoir of knowledge. Minato was able to keep up with Lord Second's strategy but I think it was clear Tobirama is the better brains. Tobirama has better experience/ is the more calculated fighter. HE can easily counter FTG kunai spam by flooding the area with his massive suitons. And while his FTG versatility isn't as good, tobirama is smart enough to use his FTG defensively to counter any of minato's FTG blitzes, and rely on his other techniques. Even then Tobirama, showed himself to be a quick study of minato's improvements, he was even able to sync his own markings to the 4th's markings, and was able to use techniques like hirasihin mawashi. So Tobirama wins imo, he only loses to kyuubi minato because he doesn't have any way of harming kurama that I know of. That said, nagato doesn't have tobirama's reaction feats nor does he have his experience/intelligence. So nagato isn't beating minato unless you bring forth a more refined explanation, Idk where you get this idea that minato can't harm him.

@Kyfie, me a minato fanboy just because I have the common sense to know FTG is instantenous movement? Get real. Show these databook scans that claim that it's "high speed movement", because the manga makes it clear it's instantenous movement. Your own logic doesn't make sense, you say minato is slow outside of FTG, then in the same breath claim FTG is simply him using high speed movement. FTG works by opening a dimensional void that leads you to a marking of your choice, the speed of this technique is instant. Instanenous movement sounds pretty high speed to me. There is nothing faster than instant lol. Tobirama and Minato's FTG are the same speed, it's common sense. Minato simply can teleport more things at a time and can utilize more marked kunai + FTG barrier.

Killer bee easily countered amaterasu and could have killed weakened taka with flash bijuu dama. Killer bee killed sasuke multiple times in that fight as well. Killer bee couldn't be bothered with finishing off fodder though, so he decided to fake his death and take a vacation. IF he was fighting like how he fought in the war-arc, ink clones, rotating tails that can obliterate forest, and flash bijuu dama sasuke would have been neg diff'd. the difference is that minato was explicitly stated to be greater than Ay+Bee, after many encounters. While sasuke clearly got washed by both killer bee and Ay in one battle.

I never said hiruzen is as fast tobirama or hashi. They ran as a group, probably to catch up and talk. But they clearly saw Minato running extremely fast, and tobirama was impressed. You can easily watch someone running and come to the conclusion that they are faster than you, it's common sense. I know that usain bolt is faster than I am because I can clearly see his feats trump my own.