Talk:Sensing Water Sphere

Water Release and Sensing as a parent jutsu?
Can we presume that Water Release is used for this technique? Also, shouldn't Sensing be a parent technique? If so, every user of this should be considered a Sensor Type. Norleon (talk) 15:30, November 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Bump. Norleon (talk) 11:31, November 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Bump again. Norleon (talk) 13:48, December 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * I asked on forums, but nobody replied. That means nobody's against this >.< I believe you can go right ahead:)--Omojuze (talk) 14:29, December 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't believe it has anything to do with Water Release. Gerisama (talk) 14:56, December 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * It has water in its name, the sphere is made out of water and water(bubbles) are used to monitor the area? How is there nothing connected with Water Release?--Omojuze (talk) 14:58, December 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * It is not neccessary a Suiton ninjutsu, it is just made up of water, then they use sensing jutsu on it. Gerisama (talk) 17:24, December 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * How did they make something out of water? They glued puddles of water together into a big ball? xDD They used Water Release to create it..--Omojuze (talk) 17:30, December 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * But there are other techniques that utilize elements that aren't of that release type. The age old Kirin debate springs to mind. Similarly so, early in the series we saw Gozu and Mezu hide in water, which isn't listed as Water Release. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 18:34, December 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Kirin is confirmed to be a Raiton technique. ;) • Seelentau 愛 議 18:59, December 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * You mean this? Its listed as a Water Release Technique.--Omojuze (talk) 19:00, December 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Seelentau, what do you think about this? You translated the databook, so I will respect your decision. ;)--Omojuze (talk) 19:01, December 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Hawkeye2701 That's right. However, in this case, there are some points pointing towards this.
 * 1. It has "water" (水) in its name.
 * 2. In this scene, there is water flushing under the ball, acting as a source for the technqiue.
 * 3. In this scene, Ao and Inoichi form the ball by apparently infusing it with chakra. The ball grows constantly, with the water resource present as well.
 * Also, since it enables people to sense chakra through it, it has to be a parent technique, like in this case. Wongo2 (talk) 19:03, December 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * If we start inserting speculation into articles, I assure you that the credibility of this place will just be lowered to laughable status. We are adding nothing to this article until it is confirmed. Just because it "looks" like a water release technique based on "water" being in the name, proves nothing whatsoever. --Sajuuk Talk Page 19:44, December 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * There's a difference between real water and water release. Please read this. Chakra natures aren't actual substances. Was the chakra nature of water used, or real water? The article starts with "This sphere, made of water..." suggesting real water, not necessarily water release, otherwise it would have been listed. Water Release molds chakra into a substance that looks and feels like water, but is not actual water. So my question is, was anyone seen to mold chakra into a water-like substance? ~• WS7125 [Mod]WindStar7125 Task.svgWindStar7125's Task.svg 20:13, December 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes. Ao and Inoichi molded chakra into the water-ball which grew in its proportions. They must have been using chakra, anything else would not make sense. Wongo2 (talk) 20:25, December 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wongo, you do not understand. They used chakra to manipulate real water, that is something that anyone can do and doesn't require the person to have a nature. By definition, chakra natures are ways to define techniques that are molded by the use of chakra. Or do you think that people who use fire release are really spitting out real fire? --Sajuuk Talk Page 20:27, December 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * In the Water Release article itself stands that, I quote: "...that allow the user to manipulate pre-existing water, or create their own, by turning their chakra into water."...with three references behind it. So yeah, I am confused. Why shouldn't it be Water Release by moving water suddenly? Don't you use Earth Release too to lift it? Wongo2 (talk) 20:32, December 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Like how Gaara infuses chakra into sand. There's no "Sand Release," just chakra used to lift real sand. Is that picture you link them infusing chakra into real water to lift it, or chakra being molded into a water-like substance? If the latter option were true, then this technique would have been listed as Water Release long ago. ~• WS7125 [Mod]WindStar7125 Task.svgWindStar7125's Task.svg 20:33, December 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wongo's actually right. Kakashi and Zabuza used the Water Release: Water Dragon Bullet Technique with already existing water.--Nature Icon Eruption.svgJOA20 20:36, December 10, 2014 (UTC)

So did Zabuza with the Hiding in Mist Technique. It even says so in the article. Tobirama is famous for his usage of Water Release even in places where there's no water at all. So it must be a rarity and the most common way is to use already existing water. Edit: "It takes much more ability to create the water outside the body than to manipulate what is already available or expel it from their mouths" - also a quote from the Water Release article. Wongo2 (talk) 20:40, December 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yup, I guess you had nothing else to say to deny the facts. Wongo2 is right, and the description in the databook and all the kanji in the manga and everything links to this being a Water Release technique. So, will we here some more points why not?--Omojuze (talk) 20:42, December 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Great to know this place is just becoming a fanon wiki, let's keep inserting our own speculative assumptions into articles without having a real authoritative source that states this technique is Water Release. Let's keep it up guys. --Sajuuk Talk Page 20:47, December 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * But if it were Water Release, then wouldn't Tau have already listed it as such (or asked someone to)? He is the translator as you say. ~• WS7125 [Mod]WindStar7125 Task.svgWindStar7125's Task.svg 20:48, December 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * ^ This. --Sajuuk Talk Page 20:49, December 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * ^ I asked him, let's wait for his reply. Let's promise that whatever he says about this - goes.
 * @SuperSajuuk, throwing the "this has become a fan wiki" thing is, sorry to say, so foolish, coming from you out of all editors. We're all here trying to improve this wiki to be correct, and you throwing out the "fan wiki" thing when you're yourself oppose the databook... For now I can only say that you only disagree with things that you don't like, sorry for saying this, but i had to take it out of my sistem.. xDD--Omojuze (talk) 20:59, December 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Just because Tau is a translator does not mean his opinion means more than anyone else here. A wiki is a collaboration project and the opinion of one user never trumps anyone else's.
 * Also, I would recommend that you desist with the passive trolling and contribute meaningfully to the wikia and not drag up issues that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. --Sajuuk Talk Page 21:00, December 10, 2014 (UTC)

@WindStar7125 That is because it was only featured as a "minor" technique, like Rock Clone Technique, which wasn't explictly stated to be Earth Release either.Wongo2 (talk) 21:02, December 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * I can't wait to see what Tau says... Apperently, both sides are right about water... Glad I don't really have a stance on this XD
 * ~• WS7125 [Mod]WindStar7125 Task.svgWindStar7125's Task.svg 21:05, December 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Translation. Also, it's a water sphere, it's made of water and the water can be controlled at will. If we list Mū's camouflage technique as Water Release, we should list this one as well. • Seelentau 愛 議 03:12, December 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * But his camouflage technique isn't listed as Water Release though, and Mū isn't listed as a user of water release, according to the databook. So... what are you trying to say? ~• WS7125 [Mod]WindStar7125 Task.svgWindStar7125's Task.svg 03:28, December 11, 2014 (UTC)

"This is becoming a fanon wiki" because we want to use obvious facts (water=Water Release), but have an entire side of the wiki (including some debating creation of water out of thin-air =/= Water Release, which is actually in the definition of Water Release) debating to keep fanon arc titles/arrangements. That's a good ol' fashion case of hypocrisy right there. Oh how I love this wiki. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 03:54, December 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Don't come firing at me, Ten. :) I don't even have a stance in this argument. I'm just waiting on Tau's word. ~• WS7125 [Mod]WindStar7125 Task.svgWindStar7125's Task.svg 03:57, December 11, 2014 (UTC)

Huh, I didn't think the hiding in water technique was listed as a water release, we have a bunch of other hidden element techniques, are they listed? I'm gonna have to go check this now. That aside, I know Kirin is a Raiton technique, my point is, I've seen this type of debate a hundred times over round here. It's actually happening right now as I left my first comment not 24 hours ago, and there's now a dozen posts or more on top of it. My point, to stop rambling, is that without that prefix of "Suiton: Whateverthehellitis" our policy is typically not to call it or address it as such. So while we could have a massive argument over naturally occuring elements vs. chakra molded elements, which was another hallmark of the Kirin debate, there's really nothing that's going to be done about it in the long run because our only frame of reference is confirmed data and occasionally, other techniques, such as your run of the mill attack techniques which can be compared to three or four others for being incredibly similar.

The problem here is that there isn't a similar technique. All the water techniques like it are offensive, all the sensing techniques up until this one don't include any sort of exterior interface. There is honestly no frame of reference to compare this thing with anything else in the Naruto Universe thus far, so we're pretty much done here cause like I said before, there's a hundred arguments like this a week around here.--Hawkeye2701 (talk) 04:35, December 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, it's Water Release. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:20, December 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * If it looks like water, acts like water, is called water, then it isn't water until it's stated as such in the databook. If it wasn't called Water Release in the databook then it won't be called Water Release here. Same with Mu's Camouflage technique, if that wasn't stated to be Water Release either.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 11:37, December 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * So /hugs. You all probably wasted your time and energy.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 11:38, December 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * The manipulation of water is Water Release, though. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:48, December 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm sure you believe it is. But until a databook actually says "This is Water Release" then....--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 11:57, December 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Are you aware that that logic can be used on a ton of techniques from the databooks? If there's no prefix used, the chakra nature of a technique is rarely clarified in the text. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:32, December 11, 2014 (UTC)

Fantastic. But no matter how logical it is, unless it is specifically stated, no dice. The bed we made.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 12:40, December 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * TheUltimate3, following your logic, "Rock Clone Technique" is not Earth Release, right? Just one of many examples.--Omojuze (talk) 13:16, December 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yep. Unless specifically stated, not an Earth Release. Cheers.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 13:28, December 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Are you being serious? Ok, then, we should remove it as an Earth Release in this case. Next up, Mouse Hairball, so, according to you, its not a Fire Release, even though its made out of fire?--Omojuze (talk) 13:32, December 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Correct. Basically following the logical next step of several discussions on this wiki, Databook = Facts. Anything else = Speculation. As much sense as it may make, if it isn't in one of the 4 databooks, then we don't speculate here. Our selective reasoning has to end somewhere. May as well be a backwater (ha) technique that only the nerds that frequent this wikia like us even care about. Cheers.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 13:36, December 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hydrification Technique - not Water Release? (Was never stated to be Water Release in the databook or in the series). Sorry to say, but applying this kind of "logic" will only do harm to the wiki.--Omojuze (talk) 13:38, December 11, 2014 (UTC)

Color me surprised.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 13:46, December 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Now you sir are a insane if you think such things. If we do that, then its not a wiki on naruto, but a wiki on the databooks, that's it.--Omojuze (talk) 13:48, December 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Applying your logic, this is a wiki on the databooks, the books are about Naruto, therefore, this must be a Naruto wiki.
 * Look, I stopped commenting around here a long time ago because of debates like this. I've been on both sides of them. There are good and bad on everyside. The problem is, once we start to give in to the "Logical" argument, it starts to become a slippery slope where everyone who even has a mildly rational argument could cite "Hey, you let all this other stuff fly, so why not this" at which point the wiki devolves into glorified fanon with theories overtaking facts. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 13:58, December 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * See, that is the bed we've made. This thing is most likely Water Release. It would be hat on ass stupid for it not to be. But that is completely meaningless because the Glorious Databook didnt say it was. Just like Blaze Release. Just like Magnet Release. Let us not pick a choose shall we?--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 14:15, December 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * At least you agree with the databook not being informative enough. Can we do this like we do with Body Pathway Derangement, as in add to the infoboxes of the users that its presumed as Water Release, and add the mention in the trivia? I'll be happy with that :)--Omojuze (talk) 14:28, December 11, 2014 (UTC)

sure that would be nice for you but it's not about what's nice for you. This should be something that has a vote. Munchvtec (talk) 14:29, December 11, 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree we should have a vote on it, though on this fan wiki I think it's getting kinda uselessGerisama (talk) 20:35, December 11, 2014 (UTC)


 * No real need. We made the decision about a week or so ago. It doesn't get added unless it was specifically stated. What you see is completely irrelevant.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 20:40, December 11, 2014 (UTC)


 * So.. Its decided that this is not a Water Release? Then Rock Clone Technique is not Earth Release and Mouse Hairball is not Fire Release, so we can remove that too... >.< --Omojuze (talk) 22:29, December 16, 2014 (UTC)

The users of this jutsu could very well be using wind release to control and hold the waters shape iirc. Munchvtec (talk) 12:50, December 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, but they should be users of the generic sensing technique, as this one acts as a medium for that. Djfghdfe53475zdhdf (talk) 13:04, December 23, 2014 (UTC)

nope. Munchvtec (talk) 13:48, December 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * nope because...?Iloveinoxxx (talk) 23:19, December 23, 2014 (UTC)

Uh....
Wasn't the water variant given a name in the databook? If so, did we just create a name and merge two similar techniques into one? Was there even a discussion about this? ~ Ten Tailed Fox 15:09, April 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * It was. Not "create", but center it around other variations, not just one. There was, albeit a short one. Basically to avoid the creation of "Sensing Sand Sphere", an unnamed technique that appeared in this week's episode.--Omojuze (talk) 15:14, April 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * No, we didn't. And the discussion was mostly between those who were in favor of it, so you can't really call it a discussion, either. • Seelentau 愛 議 15:16, April 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * I see quite a few voicing descent. I also see Omojuze—who has no authority to give such a command—tell Sajuuk just to "do it", regardless of the fact that the discussion was woefully far from complete. One has to wonder when community consensus went out the window. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 15:19, April 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * we are only doing this because each week you keep bitching around how you and a few others don't like unnamed technique articles. I don't want to have a repeat of the last one.--Omojuze (talk) 15:21, April 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * TTF, clearly you can't take a joke. I'm just speechless. And this comes from a guy who basically begged to become a Sysop, not being shady, just saying.--Omojuze (talk) 15:22, April 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * Sensing Sand Sphere was made and was virtually deemed to be a variant of this technique, using sand. The unnamed page did nothing but repeat the exact same content of this one, so it served no purpose and was merged. It's a sphere used to sense stuff, the medium used can be anything and doesn't have to be just "water", as today's episode aptly demonstrated. --Sajuuk talk 15:24, April 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * That's all fine and dandy, but since when did the going-ons of the anime change manga-established fact? I mean, a trivia note in the Water Sensing Sphere would've made more sense then inventing a name (derived from the originatl or not) and smashing the two together. That is quite literally something the Naruto Fanon Wiki would do. That, combined with the virtual non-consensus of this debate, makes me believe they should be un-merged and left as is. If they were two unnamed techniques, that'd be one thing. Cutting down on needless unnamed techniques is also an understandable goal, but not when altering established canon-information is seen as the solution. Sorry. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 05:37, May 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * This wiki does not simply cater only to manga content. If the anime (or just about any other media) does something that is similar or identical to something shown in the manga, then the wiki's duty is to correct the information and showcase the differences.
 * This technique is, quite simply, a sphere made of any random material used to sense things in a particular area. Whether that be sand, water or ice, it's a sensing sphere. There's a trivia point on this page referring to the databook name and Sensing Water Sphere is a redirect here. So what's the big deal?
 * I remember the time you made a big fuss over Kurenai's databook name, willing to completely forgo 500+ episodes and 700 chapters just to satisfy your desire that the wiki should only cater to the databook and that everyone else should simply "suck it up". Sorry, but that's not how this wiki works and it will never work simply to satisfy your desire (ironically, the only contributions you've made in months is just to complain on talkpages about how things are being improved). --Sajuuk talk 09:16, May 1, 2015 (UTC)

The issue that Ten Tailed Fox stated however, is that when the databook states something for an ability, that usually sticks. If the Water Sensing Ball is stated as a technique in the databook, and the anime decides to make a Sand Sensing Ball, the Water ones article doesn't disappear. Yes they do the same thing, but they make up is different, if not then we would have 1 Clone Technique article and every variation of that would be there. That is of course if the databook actually did call out the Water Sensing Sphere by name. I do not know, and if it did not then this entire argument is moot. If it did however, the manga-canon-bible cannot be overturned in such a way.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 10:37, May 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * And this is different from a name change mainly in that, Kurnei Yuhi is her established name at the start of the series. Her changing it to Sarutobi should be mentioned in the article (again, similar to what the Harry Potter wiki does with married people). This issue is about a technique in the databook being merged with an anime exclusive technique.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 10:40, May 1, 2015 (UTC)