Talk:Izanagi

Madara using izanagi
Madara has never seemed to teach obito anything. The brief moments he was alive was due to gedou mazo. He entrusted his will to one zetsu and it became black zetsu. Even if Black zetsu taught Obito izanagi, it was because of obito's sheer skill and chakra that he was able to master it!

Izanagi should not be in the infobox! Because if madara had used it he wouldn't have the ability to gain EMS. It would be from some other DNA. We cannot assume that he used it sometime in past. Obito had only his left eye that had mangekyo sharingan, also to activate susanoo he would need both his eyes and that other eye is with Kakashi.

We can't even assume that madara used it after battle with hashirama, because he had his EMS before death and also he activated rinnengan with his own eyes and transplanted them into Nagato. He didnt have too many sharingan to spam otherwise he would have had sharingan in both eye socket.

Obito has that many sharingan because of itachi's cooperation with him.

I agree on the fact that he has knowledge of all the uchiha kin-jutsu. But that does not means he used it all. If izanagi is in the infobox then izanami should be there too, or none should be present!

Either Madara taught him inside of a genjutsu, or black zetsu did as his "will" So by your logic, an Uchiha has to sacrifice an eye to confirm he knows how to do so? Minato learned Shinigami without killing himself for example. What has Susanoo to do with this? The only fair statement is the one with Izanami. There's no other way from where Obito could have learned Izanagi as it's not his personal/new technique, Kishi even bothered to draw a panel with Madara stating: "Come, I will teach you Uchiha kinjutsu, six paths techniques and Yin-Yang release" or something like that.--Elveonora (talk) 23:45, April 5, 2013 (UTC)

Not to further confuse things but wasn't the stone tablet in the Naka Shrine said to have information on their techniques as well as the clan history and Mangekyo bits? I want to say it was Itachi that said it. Arrancar79 (talk) 08:50, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

I don't remember any techniques being mentioned and even if so, Sasuke read the tablet and didn't know about Izanagi before his encounter with Danzo--Elveonora (talk) 13:42, April 6, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah, he did know of Izanagi. Danzo was surprised by it and said "you tricked me". It doesn't prove you could learn it from the tablet but maybe. Arrancar79 (talk) 22:49, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

Sasuke merely tricked Danzō into confirming what he had guessed during the fight, he didn't have prior knowledge of the technique, otherwise he would have recognized it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:24, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

Baru's usage
The way he used Izanagi was different than how it is usually used. He made an illusionary army of himself (?) instead of using it to avoid any inflictions. Did anyone else see this? --OmegaRasengan (talk) 21:16, November 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Looked to me like he revived the other Uchiha killed with the rock no jutsu. EDIT: my bad, got the names confused. The usage of it in general seemed off tho--Elveonora (talk) 21:54, November 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Is this later when he got into a fight with other Uchiha before Naori intervened? I understood that sequence as the several fighting Uchiha getting slashed and then Izanaging themselves back in quick succession. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:54, November 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Omega is talking about the time, when Itachi said, "There was a fight which Uchiha needed to win at all cost," When the Uchiha mass fell down a trap. Baru used his Izanagi to revive/bring them back up...-- ''East Dragons Feast  03:34, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * That wasn't Baru but Rai.--Elveonora (talk) 13:52, November 15, 2013 (UTC)

incorrect trivia
First, Obito's eye closed only after the technique has ended too, so that's not an error I think. What is an error tho but isn't listed is that Izanagi makes the eye seal itself, while in the anime filler it doesn't do so but stays open and turns white instead, like in case of Izanami. Second, to me it seems like the filler is suggesting that Izanagi and Izanami are Mangekyou Sharingan techniques--Elveonora (talk) 14:07, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Could also be that only "borrowed" Sharingan close...but I don't know if that makes much sense. The two canon uses of Izanagi only show normal Sharingan, no MS at all. I don't know why Izanagi should be much different, but then again, it was only used with MS so far, so it may be a MS technique....wasn't this already discussed some time ago? Norleon (talk) 15:10, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, the thing is, we see Kamui being used with a normal Sharingan too :-/--Elveonora (talk) 15:38, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * That is the kind of inconsistency I find hard to understand. There are some MS techniques that can be used without activating it (like Susanoo)....it just makes it hard to reason when a MS is required at all...I guess that Izanagi doesn't require a MS but can be used with one as well. For Izanami....regarding that it was only used with a MS so far, it would be logical to write it down as a MS technique but then wouldn't it be unrealistic that one technique requires it and the other doesn't? They are a pair after all.... -.- Norleon (talk) 18:50, November 15, 2013 (UTC)

A little doubt
When used, Izanagi "destoy" the sharingan used to perform the technique, it became useless, correct? Then, how, in the last chapter, the uchiha seems to use it as a simple technique, and even sacrifice their Mangekyo to use it so arbitrary? It's like the lost they had to pay is nothing but some a few more moments of life and fighting, the last to use Izanagi is the one to win! At my point, this filler had some errors, it don't seem to be a good filter to add on pages. Sorry for writing error. MaskedManMadara (talk) 22:39, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * The concept of Izanagi was already filled with this inconsistency, long before the anime filler came in. One asked a long time ago, how could the Uchiha abuse Izanagi if they went blind in that eye. Either way, we know the Uchiha abused Izanagi, we also know that they somehow didn't abuse themselves into blindness. So yeah kinda gotta just roll with that.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 23:03, November 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * "speculation mode" This could work: "Eye number 1 uses Izanagi to avoid death/make an illusion attack real and so on... the Uchiha then uses eye number 2's Izanagi to make the first eye's blindness didn't happen..." that would still leave only 3 viable usages total tho. The least speculative scenario is that the "abusers" simply took eyes of their dead Uchiha clansmen.--Elveonora (talk) 14:10, November 16, 2013 (UTC)

Or when they used Izanagi in their last eye with vision, they made it to where when the Izanagi illusion was about to end that they had their eyesight back, THEN it ended, giving them their eyes back?? Sounds like some troll bs the Uchiha would do anyways... and it would give a true purpose to izanami ItachiWasAHero (talk) 12:52, December 9, 2013 (UTC)

Requires Senju Power?
There are several things that the anime changes when Itachi uses Izanami on Kabuto, one being the eye's pupil turning white instead of having the eye close. Another is that many Uchiha were able to use it. Madara was the first Uchiha to get Senju power, meaning that nobody before him would have been able to use Izanagi and it wouldn't have been labeled as a forbidden jutsu. The part where Tobi claims it requires Senju power is false and it is recanted in the anime episode Izanagi and Izanami. Daman45667 (talk) 16:38, April 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * Itachi used Izanami, not Izanagi. What happens in the anime and not in the manga isn't canon.--JOA20 (talk) 16:51, April 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * Also, Senju power is what allowed Danzō to extend the duration of Izanagi, other Uchiha obviously used it before, it simply wasn't as powerful. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:14, April 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * It didn't just happen in the anime, the history of Izanami in the beginning of chapter 587 also tells about past Uchiha who used Izanagi. The paragraph in the wiki page starting with "To use Izanagi, users must also have the genetic traits of the Senju" should be changed to reflect the fact that Tobi was wrong and Senju power is not required.  (in the middle of writing this I looked at both chapters were Izanagi was mentioned and there is a conflict between the two, the writer seems to have greatly changed Izanagi between it's introduction and the introduction of Izanami) Daman45667 (talk) 00:47, April 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * You know, it IS possible that they also found some senju DNA, where was it said that Madara was the FIRST to use Senju DNA? Dahk (talk) 01:36, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * I find it extremely hard to believe that there were Uchiha running around stealing Senju blood to activate a Sharingan technique. Izanagi alone can be used by the Uchiha. Izanagi on the scale that Danzō and Obito displayed requires Senju DNA. That's been explicitly explained over and over again. No need to rehash this argument everytime. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:41, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * The whole reason this is an issue is because it ISN'T EXPLICITLY explained Dahk (talk) 02:49, April 7, 2014 (UTC)

Going from what Omni said: "other Uchiha obviously used it before, it simply wasn't as powerful", my line of thinking is this.. Uchiha are capable of using it, it's just that Senju DNA increased the power of it. Seeing as the eye techs come from the Sages power, having both bloodlines would in turn increase the power and effectiveness of it. If that makes sense? SusanooUnleashed (talk) 05:52, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know man, considering that it is a yin-yang release and that it is a derivative of the sages Creation of All Things technique i still stand by that it needs both senju and uchiha power to use it simply because the uchiha side uses yin to create the genjutsu and the senju yang release to make it a reality. There just hasn't been any case where it has been stated that any who used Izanagi did not have senju but the times that it has been shown every user has had some senju dna, i think until someone uses it and we are 100% sure that they have NO senju dna then we have to assume that not only does it require it, but the uchiha who abused it in the past also had some senju DNA, keep in mind they were in a war with the senju so them using their enemies dna to get the upper hand isn't so very far fetched as people seem to think it is. Dahk (talk) 19:25, April 7, 2014 (UTC)

Time-Space Ninjutsu
Considering the reality-warping power of this technique, shouldn't it be also classified as Time-Space Ninjutsu? Various technique have implored two of the three main ninja skills. Steveo920, April 30, 2014, 15:32
 * No, it's a Genjutsu, not a Ninjutsu. • Seelentau 愛議 19:34, April 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Reality-warping ain't teleportation. It's pretty much "me god no jutsu"--Elveonora (talk) 21:15, April 30, 2014 (UTC)

Izanagi w/o Senju cells?
May I ask why this article states that you can use Izanagi without possessing Senju cells? (Yes, I read the topic above, but it doesn't answer my question). • Seelentau 愛 議 16:54, June 22, 2014 (UTC)

I think it's because Izanami was created to punish Izanagi users who abused it's power. That would mean it have to be possible to use Izanagi without Senju cells, especially if Itachi could use Izanami and we know he had no Senju cells at all. Also Madara used it before he integrated Hashirama's flesh to his wounds to come back from the dead.--Narutofox94 (talk) 17:06, June 22, 2014 (UTC)

Because Izanagi needs no Senju power obviously?--Elveonora (talk) 17:09, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * If it was obvious, I wouldn't be asking. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:11, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't see how would Madara be able to script his eye to use Izanagi before even getting Hash cells if they were needed. I once thought that Senju cells are a requirement too, but that didn't really make sense with the Uchiha abusing it in the past. It was farfetched to think each of them stole flesh from Senju, although one may never know with them--Elveonora (talk) 17:17, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * From what I could gather from scraps of memories, Senju DNA is not needed for Izanagi, but it does make Izanagi work better. For some reason.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:30, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Elve, it was stated prior to Madara's Izanagi, so that doesn't count as an argument. TU3, but why is it not needed? Tobi even said that you can use it only with both powers... • Seelentau 愛 議 17:37, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Did he now? Like I said, from the scraps of my memory I could have sworn it was stated that Senju DNA just makes it work better.
 * Sometimes (or rather more often recently) we get either vague or contradicting statements. But since now we've seen Madara setting up an Izanagi without Senju cells, we've got a confirmation that they are optional. That's it. Perhaps Obito\s remark was the same like Kakashi's about Sharingan and Hyuga, false/half-true. Or simply a retcon, we have had some. For example, the first time we were shown Madara's death, he was pierced from the front, not behind--Elveonora (talk) 17:50, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, he did. And please ignore Madara's Izanagi for now. For what reason was it stated before he used it? • Seelentau 愛 議 17:55, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Obito was comparing Izanagi to Creation of All Things and how it is power of both Uchiha and Senju or so--Elveonora (talk) 18:03, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Nope. • Seelentau 愛 議 18:07, June 22, 2014 (UTC)

As far as I understand, the fact Uchiha were able to abuse it between themselves in an indication that it doesn't require Senju cells, though its application enhances Izanagi to the levels we saw Danzō use. Madara being able to use it before grafting Hashirama's cells undeniably confirms that to me. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:12, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * How does the using of a technique debunk the requirements for that technique? • Seelentau 愛 議 18:45, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Unless having Hashirama's flesh in his stomach counts as an implantation of tissue, which isn't and shouldn't, for many reasons, Madara used Izanagi without Senju DNA. The fact of the Uchiha abusing the technique would also imply they all had access to Senju DNA and all had grafts of Senju cells as well, which is highly unlikely. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:50, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Looking at all the bloody battles that happened between the Uchiha and Senju, it's almost certain that both parties hat access to DNA from their opponents, Madara included. • Seelentau 愛 議 18:53, June 22, 2014 (UTC)

Not to mention that Black Zetsu apparently tried to make the Uchiha and Senju awaken the Rinnegan for all its life, so to me it sounds obvious that Uchihas could use Izanagi only because they had access to Senju DNA.--JOA20 (talk) 18:59, June 22, 2014 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong Seel, but the implication that you are trying to convey is that Madara had had some Senju's cells already before he took Hashirama's, is that correct?--Elveonora (talk) 20:14, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Madara may not have had already implanted it in his body, but he had just taken a piece of the Senju's meat in their final battle.--JOA20 (talk) 20:25, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, Elve. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:37, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then why go through the motions of taking Hashirama flesh if he already had it? The lulz? The flashback stated he got a piece of Hashirama during that battle and used it in his wound, which is what we saw. Why would he do that if he already had it?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 21:11, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Seelentau states that he had "a" Senju cells prior to Hashirama's.--Elveonora (talk) 22:24, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * And I was pointing out that isn't logical, based on the events that transpired. First of all, how is "a" Senju cell any different from a chunk of Hashirama meat (ha ha ha), and why would he even bother showing us the moment he got the DNA if there was literally no point?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 23:31, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * The reasoning comes directly from Obito. He claims (in the same speech to Konan) that those without Hashirama's power could only use an "incomplete Izanagi". He then goes on to declare himself "Madara Uchiha who has the power of Hashirama Senju", indicating that because of this power, he could use a complete Izanagi. Which makes sense because during Sasuke's battle with Danzo, Obito noted that Hashirama's cells merely increased the amount of time Danzo could use Izanagi with each eye before it went blind. Edit: Furthermore, "Senju DNA" was never said to be a requirement. Ever. That is a grievous misunderstanding. In every instance, Hashirama's cellular material is specifically mentioned. You need his cells. Not just any run of the mill Senju. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 23:36, June 22, 2014 (UTC)

It would be best to just check what Obito said to Konan--Elveonora (talk) 13:00, June 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * Umm I thought that it was just that the usage of Hashirama's cells allowed people to "perfect" or "enhance" Izanagi?


 * I mean for one thing, Izanami was created as to punish people who abused it. Itachi even noted that a big problem was Izanagi users using it against each other. If that's the case, I don't think all that many of those Uchiha would have had access to Senju cells. (Besides that, Izanami obviously doesn't require the usage of Senju DNA, and it's considered a pair technique of the same caliber. But this is speculation, so you can disregard the pair technique reasoning.)


 * For another, Hashirama's DNA in general was noted to be able to boost the power of a bunch of Sharingan abilities. I'm fairly certain Danzo had his cells implanted in him to extend Izanagi's duration, besides of course allowing him a much shorter Kotoamatsukami recharge time and the ability to use wood release. Aeron Solo wuz here (If you wanna talk)  17:32, June 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * Oops, Ten-tails already said a lot of what I said. Sorry :P


 * I checked again what Obito said, and the Mangastream translation had him claim that only the combined power of the Senju and the Uchiha allowed people to use it. About Danzo, Obito also claimed that because he couldn't control Hashirama's DNA he only got an incomplete version of it.


 * But this doesn't make any sense. If Izanami was created to punish the multitude of Izanagi abusers, does this mean that there were actually a sizeable number of Uchiha had access to Senju DNA? Aeron Solo wuz here (If you wanna talk)  17:41, June 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Don't even use scanlations for reference, check the viz--Elveonora (talk) 17:49, June 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * ...Aren't Viz translations meant for younger audiences, and thus even less accurate than scanlations? Especially those from Mangastream? Aeron Solo wuz here (If you wanna talk)  17:54, June 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ideally, you would use the translations our providers give because both of those have their highs and the lows. But on the base, official translations are worth more than scanlations. And also speaking not as an sysop for a second, Mangastream, while good, takes massive liberties with what they translate as a way to make it more entertaining for their readers. If anything, out of the few parties that do scan, they are probably the worst one to use on its own because they will change dialogue to make it sound better.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:23, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

Sorry for not replying earlier, I'm currently on the road w/ limited internet access.

Anyhow, Tobi said in chapter 510 that Senju and Uchiha powers are required. How can that be misunderstood? I agree that after the latest chapter, it's debateable if Senju cells really are a requirement, but I wanna know about the time before that. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:50, June 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * What Seel said. Tobi stated that Izanagi could be used only by those with Senju and Uchiha powers. About Danzō, Obito commented that those who couldn't fully control Hashirama's (and the Senju's) powers could use only an "incomplete" Izanagi.--JOA20 (talk) 20:00, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

Geez, can't we simply agree that this is a major plothole (amongst many others) in Naruto? It's not like Kishi's coherent 100% of the time dudes, his manga is filled with flaws and plotholes. Izanagi requiring Senju and Uchiha powers is just another one. Abe 02:01,6/28/2014


 * Again, I'll say that you're wrong. Tobi said only those with Senju Hashirama's DNA could achieve a complete Izanagi, then referencing Danzo said that those unable to control Hashirama's powers achieved an incomplete Izanagi. So unless Hashirama had his blood repeatedly stolen by a multitude of Uchiha (which would be require for Izanami), your point is moot entirely. Besides, Tobi is hardly a credible source since in that same speech to Konan, he was lying. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 05:01, June 28, 2014 (UTC)


 * The only way I can find an explanation that sustains the version that there is a "complete Izanagi" and a "incomplete Izanagi" is the following: Whenever, throughout the series, Izanagi/Izanami was used by someone who didn't possess Senju power (i.e. Itachi, dead Madara, random Uchiha clansmen), their eyes simply got blank. However, when used by someone with both Uchiha and Senju powers (i.e. Obito and Danzo), the eyes closed. Maybe there's a hint in here that actually makes up for this confusion. Still, that adds up for two "lies" Tobi told Konan during their fight: that any Izanagi necessarily required Senju+Uchiha; and that he was the one who convinced Yahiko to organize Akatsuki. Abe 05:29,6/28/2014
 * @Fox, I'm talking about chapter 510, when he began explaining Izanagi. He really only says Uchiha and Senju. Also, when did he lie to Konan (except for saying he's Madara)? • Seelentau 愛 議 09:26, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * I insist on the version of two kinds of Izanagi based on how the user's eyes look after using it. I mean, look at here: http://readms.com/r/naruto/681/2414/17 there's Madara's right eye, blank, after using Izanagi, even though we have seen more than 10 eyes closing after using Izanagi on Danzo's arm. It doesn't see reasonable to me to think that Kishi just forgot about this. I think he's telling us something. Abe 15:49,6/28/2014

At this point, it should be clear that Uchiha's can use Izanagi without Senju/Hashirama cells. This may seemingly contradict Obito (depending on translation), but he's an unreliable narrator extraordinaire. You have the history of Uchihas abusing Izanagi, so much so, that they required Izanami to stop it. You have Madara on panel using Izanagi without Hashi's DNA (unless you're seriously going to claim Hashi's "meat" in Madara's stomach is equivalent to Madara assimilating Hashi's DNA, in which case you'll have to explain why he spit it up again). You can speculate that he acquired some other Senju's DNA beforehand, but there's absolutely no indication of that. It's pure speculation. Only thing Hashi's DNA does is make it last longer if you can control it as well as Obito. Madara's pre Hashi usage should've settled the argument and the article should reflect that. --CyberianGinseng 11:16, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * As I stated before, I want to know why this was stated even before Madara's case. The many users of Izanagi is no argument, since as I said before, Obito said that you need Senju and Uchiha power, not Hashirama's powers. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:19, June 28, 2014 (UTC)


 * But it is an argument. The reason why many people came to that conclusion is because of the history of prior rampant Izanagi usage by Uchihas. It belies common sense that Uchihas were stealing Senju DNA with that level of frequency, yet 1) the leader of the Senju had no knowledge of such tactics, 2) His brother, the sensor, same guy how can determine your bodily makeup in an instant, had no knowledge of such tactics or didn't tell Hashirama, and 3) Uchiha's were walking around with Senju DNA implants, while still getting their asses kicked by Senju. It doesn't make any sense. That's why the many people threw out the so-called Senju requirement for Izanagi right then and there. This latest info just confirms prior conclusions. --CyberianGinseng 11:32, June 28, 2014 (UTC)

plothole
Since Izanagi can turn reality into an illusion and illusion into reality, essentially rewriting reality/fate/history whatever, shouldn't have Madara's wounds that had caused his death disappeared? Since they "never happened" and all--Elveonora (talk) 23:39, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * He undid the death part. Not the wounds part. Also, this isn't really a plot hole, nor does something like this really need to be asked on a talk page.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 23:54, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Death was caused by the wounds tho. So if you severed his head and the eye would then activate, Madara's headless body would start to walk around? No... the point is, the Izanagi as shown by Danzo completely removes the wounds.--Elveonora (talk) 00:05, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * Only this time, it didn't. Danzo isn't Madara. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 00:16, July 1, 2014 (UTC)


 * It's pretty clear this jutsu operates on the whim of the user. Madara could've rewrote reality so that the wound was simply less severe. There are plenty of plotholes in Naruto, but this ain't one of them.--CyberianGinseng 03:14, July 1, 2014 (UTC)

How about a much simpler explanation that isn't just excusing? Perhaps the wounds into which Madara put Hash cells had been inflicted in an earlier fight, that sounds reasonable to me.--Elveonora (talk) 11:05, July 1, 2014 (UTC)