Talk:Susanoo

Is the Susanoo clad Kurama anime picture worth adding in Madara's abilities?
Can someone add the picture of anime Susanoo-clad Kurama to Madara's abilities? If possible?--JustaNobody (talk) 06:03, June 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's not a different development stage of Susanoo, that's why the image was removed in the first place. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 12:18, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

Ay yo Omni, can't we just have a "Shape Transformation" section like we have for weaponry and the rest? For Sasuke and Madara? WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 16:50, July 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree that it should be documented in some form. I don't see why its such a bad thing to just add it to the pre-existing image galleries. Kishi made a point of making Sasuke note that he'd copied Madara when he did the same thing to Naruto's Tailed Beast Mode, so obviously it wasn't just some random event. May not be a developmental stage, but it is still something unique that only Madara and Sasuke can do. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 20:11, June 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't oppose them being shown in galleries on principle, I just recall there being discussions that lead to their removal before, I'm neutral on this. I just think that if the previous decision is being overturned, people should be a part of it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:16, June 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Agreed on that count. I will wait for more opinions while trying to come up with a possible secondary solution should adding it to the pre-existing galleries not please others. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 20:30, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

It's been a while now. Shouldn't we have a "Shape Transformation" section for Susanoo? Yes, it is not a developmental stage, and doesn't deserve to be in the characters/users' galleries, but they should still be documented in some way. We have a section for Weaponry, why not Shape Transformation? The Weaponry section isn't a developmental stage like Shape Transformation, but I agree with Foxie, it should be documented. It is the only unique ability of Susanoo that has just been left out. And since Omni is neutral on this and Foxie has already given his opinion, what do other sysops and rollbacks think? This issue should be addressed, if it hasn't been already. WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 16:50, July 7, 2014 (UTC)

Just add it pals, saves all the wrinkles. Imo stabilized Susanoo is but a shape transformation version of unstabilized, yet we document that--Elveonora (talk) 11:05, July 14, 2014 (UTC)

^^^^Been waiting for a response forever now... but we don't have the images to do so. I already have a summary for it and everything, I just need images. WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 18:25, July 14, 2014 (UTC)

terminology
This is something that is in serious need to be addressed. Was the term "perfect susanoo" ever used in manga? Same for "final susanoo" ? Because we either label the very final form as "perfect" for the sake of consistency (because some not-to-be-named persons around like to throw that term around a lot) or we delete all mentions of perfect.--Elveonora (talk) 20:48, July 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * All we know about Susanoo terminology is what Madara said. Basically, there are two different stages of Susanoo aside from the "complete" one: the "final" and the "stabilised" version. I dunno why someone keeps calling the stabilised final form "perfect". Maybe because the scans said it was "Perfect Susanoo", who knows?--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg JOA20 20:57, July 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Pretty sure Madara did indeed call his Susanoo "perfect" but it's unclear whether he was referring only to the fourth (stabilised) form or his Susanoo as a whole, since he called it that when it entered its third form. As for "final", it is a completely made-up term for the wiki, and we now know that it is in fact not the final form. The only remotely canon names of Susanoo's forms are "stabilised" and "complete" (the latter only comes from chapter 478's original title, I believe).--BeyondRed (talk) 21:24, July 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * That is false. I actually have Madara's exact quote from that scene: "I see… This is truly worthy of shinobi who bear the name Kage. Then I, Madara Uchiha, shall respond with full power! The five Kage are nothing compared to me! This is… my perfect Susanoo!" The form that appears is the unstabalized version, meaning that the "perfect" Susanoo has two forms. Unstabliized and stabilized. Edit: The Japanese word he used was kansei 完成 which can mean both "complete" and "perfect". It is also a word used to denote perfection. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 01:20, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * If this is the case, why don't we call the forms "perfect" or "complete", rather than the unofficial "final"? This would mean that the (significantly smaller) armored forms used by Itachi and Sasuke are also unstabilised perfect/complete Susanoo, would it not?--BeyondRed (talk) 01:59, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually, Ten-Tailed Fox, the next chapter goes to clarify the armoed form her shown in 588 wasn't his Perfect Susano'o. Madara had to make it change shape and then called it 'Perfect'.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 02:05, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * No it doesn't. It talks about his stabilized Susanoo being "destruction incarnate". @Red: The smaller forms don't have names. Only the large unstabilized and stabilized forms have names. And yes, we should change them. This "wiki terminology" needed to go long ago. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 02:12, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * If the normal armored form was his Perfect Susano'o, why even bother stabilizing it?--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 02:21, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Look, you can argue it all you want, that's what the manga says, so that's what it is. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 02:23, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * And the manga says, when Mei asked if that form was Perfect Susano'o? Madara explicitly said 'Not quite yet', then thought 'Settle' and then its massive form was shown.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 02:26, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's why I'm saying "perfect" Susanoo has two forms. Unstabilized and stabilized. Madara explicitly calls the unstabilized form his "perfect" Susanoo, then states the quote that you just referenced. Conclusion? They both are. The only difference is one's chakra is wild and the other's is "settle[d] down". ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 02:30, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Or the unstabilized form was just shown so Madara could show off his true Perfect Susano'o after. Some of the termininology call it 'True Susano'o' too.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 02:31, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * No they don't. The Japanese word used is kansei, as I stated above, which means "complete" or "perfect", leaning towards perfect, since it also means "perfection". "True" is a scanlation error. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 02:33, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

The Viz manga as well as the official subtitles of the depicted anime episode called it "Perfect" and when stabilized he said "Settle down!!" and unstabilized type is called "True" according to Mei's statement. — Shakhmoot  (Talk) 02:35, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Thanks Shakhmoot. True Susanoo is the name given for the unstabilized Armored version, Perfect is for the Stabilized Chakra version.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 02:41, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * No it is not. He says "This is my perfect Susanoo" (kanseihin Susanoo; literally meaning "perfected Susanoo"). That's what it says when he summons the "unstabilized" version. You both can't argue with the original Japanese. That's what it says. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 03:02, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then what was the Japanese for what Mei said? She calls it True Susano'o and Madara makes the effort to have his Susano'o stabilize to an entire different version. You're extrapolating that both are Perfect Susano'o.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 03:03, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think you know what the word "extrapolating" means. Secondly, Mei uses the word honto 本当 which means "true" or "reality", but we don't care what she says. Madara calls it kansei 完成, or, more literally, kanseihin Susanoo 完成品須佐能乎, which means "perfected Susanoo". Madara's term is more important because it is his Susanoo. Mei's term is referring to reality. Basically she's saying his Susanoo is the true form of Susanoo. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 03:08, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

Butting in: He actually calls it Kanzentai Susanoo, meaning Complete Body Susanoo. I actually don't even know when he used your terms, Fox. • Seelentau 愛 議 09:17, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * HA! So what do we do now?--Elveonora (talk) 14:17, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Really now? That's interesting. Well, if he calls it "complete body Susanoo", then we should go for maybe "complete" or, hell, I'm fine with "complete body" too. The only reason I'm arguing this is because I reject the previous logic of just using made-up wiki terms to describe Susanoo's development because they're more convenient. If that's what Madara called the form, then that's what we need to call it too. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 16:00, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Seelantau, why do most translations go Perfec Susano'o again, including the official one?--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 19:09, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * 完全 kanzen can either mean perfect or complete. 体 tai means body. So it's a complete/perfect body Susanoo. However, Kanzentai Susanoo is most likely not a term like Mangekyo Sharingan, but rather a description. • Seelentau 愛 議 09:45, July 14, 2014 (UTC)

The wiki currently refers to the second stage of Susanoo's development as "complete" based off of chapter 478's original title calling it "kanzentai" as well, so if the stabilised (and Madara's unstabilised) forms are to be considered kanzentai Susanoo, the names of the other stages would need to be changed as well. Is there anything else in the series that could be used as names for the skeletal, "complete", and armoured forms? Or would we just have to refer to them in those sorts of descriptive terms?--BeyondRed (talk) 23:35, July 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Since the title was changed, I assume that Kishimoto changed his mind about what a Kanzentai Susanoo is. If it's not the one seen in that chapter, it's obviously the one seen the other time this term was used: Madara's complete, stabilized Susanoo. Going from this, a Kanzentai Susanoo is a Susanoo with a full body, a full armout and its chakra stabilized. Sasuke achieved this in the fourth war. For everything else, no term was given, if I recall correctly. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:58, July 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * The title was changed? That's enough of a confirmation that Knzentai Susanoo is an official term to me. What about these suggestions:

Any objections?--Elveonora (talk) 12:36, July 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * We change what we currently label as Complete into Incomplete
 * Final will be changed just to "Susanoo" we may optionally use Complete just to point out it's... complete
 * The last forms will be called perfect unstabillized and perfect stabilized
 * Ya. It's not perfect if the chakra ain't stabilized. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:43, July 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Only the stabilized one was labeled perfect? In that case Full-Body Complete Susanoo will be the second to last.--Elveonora (talk) 12:45, July 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, there is no official list of steps. I think we should go by skeleton-warrior-armoured warrior. Everything else are sub-steps or so. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:50, July 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's best to keep it simple:


 * Incomplete Susanoo ribcage
 * Incomplete Susanoo skeleton
 * Incomplete Susanoo with flesh
 * Full-Body Incomplete Susanoo
 * Complete Susanoo/Complete Susanoo (Eternal Mangekyou)
 * Perfect Susanoo/Perfect Susanoo (Eternal Mangekyou)

The in-between states don't need a picture and the four-armed versions are just variants that can be mentioned in the article, don't need a picture either.--Elveonora (talk) 13:02, July 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * You say simpler, but you make it more complicated. There are no six steps necessary. We have a Susanoo made of bones, one made of the simple soldier and one made of the soldier with his armour. Also, there's no difference between complete and perfect Susanoo. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:05, July 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * I know officially there isn't, I used complete for what we currently label as final (armored soldier)--Elveonora (talk) 13:07, July 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hm, dunno, haven't checked the article. To be clear, I think the best way of differenting would be this:
 * Skeleton Susanoo
 * Everything from the ribcage to the arms to the complete upper body
 * Warrior Susanoo
 * Everything from the warrior's ribcage to his arms to his complete body
 * Armoured Warrior Susanoo
 * Everything from the armoured warrior's ribcage to his arms to his complete body. However, only the complete body with its chakra stabilized is the Kanzentai Susanoo.
 * Was that clear enough? ^^ • Seelentau 愛 議 13:19, July 15, 2014 (UTC)

Sounds kinda fanon though :P I like my version better. We should keep it similar to the way it is now, as not to confuse the fanbase with completely new terms. Everything pre-armored warrior I'd label as Incomplete--Elveonora (talk) 13:41, July 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Uh, since there is no official differentiation, every list is fanon. Mine is just the shortest and most uncomplicated one. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:45, July 15, 2014 (UTC)

Uh, would anybody be opposed to not providing images of the ribcage at all? Besides color, there's nothing to differentiate the partial uses of the ribcage besides how MUCH of it they wish to materialize. Can we just leave it at the complete skeletal forms 'n up? —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 14:15, July 15, 2014 (UTC)


 * Truth be told, I wouldn't be against the idea to limit the images to maybe the most up to date (or the most iconic) version of their Susanoo. Most iconic because, yeah that's the one people see more often than not, but I could go with most recent as well because yeah, most recent means "most done" so to speak. Then you can toss at least one image of say the ribs somewhere and Susanoo on Kurama another.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:20, July 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Really? I think there should be a separate section for Susanoo-Equipped Kurama. It is not a new developmental stage, but don't get me wrong, it should be documented somewhere, just in a separate section. WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 00:35, July 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * For terminology, I think it should go like this:
 * Ribcage Susanoo
 * Skeletal Susanoo
 * Complete Legless Susanoo (Mangekyo Sharingan version)
 * Complete Legged Susanoo (Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan Version)
 * Armored Susanoo (Mangekyo Sharingan Version)
 * Perfect Susanoo Unstabilized (Eternal Mangekyo Version)
 * Perfect Susanoo Stabilized (Eternal Mangekyo Version)

How does this sound?--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 02:05, July 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * As complicated and redundant as Elve's. I mean, how do a ribcage of the skeletal Susanoo and the full skeletal Susanoo differ? Do you want to include a special stage for just one arm, too? The ribcage is a partial manifestation of the skeletal Susanoo, as is the arm. Also, there is no perfect unstabilized Susanoo. • Seelentau 愛 議 09:21, July 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * '_' What's your opinion on version with lower body, different stage or is legless Susanoo just "partial manifestation" ? Also if you find my last one complicated still, in that case:


 * Incomplete Susanoo skeleton
 * Incomplete Susanoo with flesh
 * Susanoo/Susanoo (Eternal Mangekyou)
 * Perfect Susanoo/ Perfect Susanoo (Eternal Mangekyou)--Elveonora (talk) 11:29, July 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's like my list, except from that I don't list the Kanzentai Susanoo as a fourth stage. Like this. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:39, July 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Good. But you omit the armored version as stage, why? There's armorless warrior and armored warrior.--Elveonora (talk) 11:55, July 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * The armoured warrior is the one Sasuke achieved for a short time when he confronted Kakashi at the bridge about the Uchiha clan. It faded very fast. The normal warrior is the one that he used against Danzō. When I say "armoured Susanoo", I mean the one with a shugenja armour.
 * However, after checking the article, I think it's probably not possible to make a clear list of stages. I mean, look at Sasuke's many Susanoo forms... • Seelentau 愛 議 12:01, July 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hence why I said earlier it would be easier if we just make note of either their most iconic forms or their most recent. It looks as if Susanoo's forms are at a whim of their creator so having multiple notations for ribcages, incomplete, ect doesn't seem all that necessary.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:03, July 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Seel, why not? Sasuke's forms do not differ any from progression of the other users. In my opinion each "layer" should be considered a form. So the latest proposition works imo:

--Elveonora (talk) 12:17, July 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * full skeleton
 * + layer of flesh = full body
 * + layer of armor = armored
 * + stabilization = perfect
 * Works for me. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:20, July 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * The thing is, it's easy to change the terms in Susanoo article, but bot work may be needed to change that in all, because doing that one by one in 20 or more articles is more work than it's worth. But I'm not even sure if a bot can do that--Elveonora (talk) 12:22, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

Bump. Now worth doing because it's too much effort for little reward or are we waiting for more opinions?--Elveonora (talk) 13:29, July 17, 2014 (UTC)

Sasuke's
"complete Susanoo with a changed head" what's that? Shouldn't it rather say something like "complete susanoo eternal mengekyou sharingan version" ?--Elveonora (talk) 20:49, July 12, 2014 (UTC)

Technically, it should be "Rinnegan version," cause when Sasuke had the EMS, his Susanoo, both complete and stabilized (at least in chapter 650), it bore a grin, or at least had visible human-like teeth. After gaining Hagoromo's chakra and the Rinnegan, both stage of Susanoo gained holes in the mouth area rather than the teeth, like Indra's. WindStar7125   (Talk) (Contributions) 21:03, July 12, 2014 (UTC)

Isn't that picture just Sasuke's Susanoo in mid transition from its complete to stabilised forms?--BeyondRed (talk) 21:24, July 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Nope, and if you look at the full body version right next to it, you can see the facial changes there too. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 03:32, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * It has the old smile in the chapter just before that one though (647). If anything, it seems like it can just change its mouth at (Sasuke's) will, unless it's a minor inconsistency. Hopefully we'll see that form one more time before the manga ends.--BeyondRed (talk) 03:56, July 13, 2014 (UTC)