Talk:Orochimaru

Barrier ninjutsu
It was mentioned by Kabuto in chapter 290 Orochimaru used a barrier jutsu to protect his former vessel. I think it ought to be noted in his Other Skills subsection. Evidence: no links --Reliops (talk) 18:53, May 1, 2013 (UTC)Reliops
 * Do not link to scanlations, those are technically illegal. Just indicate chapter and page. I'm looking at two different translations, but only one mentions it being a barrier ninjutsu. We'd need to take a look at the raw. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:01, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

If you were to go on mangahere, chapter 290 pg 6 says he used a barrier ninjutsu to protect his vessel.JaZZBaND (talk) 21:03, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * And like I said, reading another scanlation, they don't use the term barrier ninjutsu, hence I pointed out the need of checking a raw. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:10, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok. From what I can tell, though, is that in the 3 scanlations I saw, in addition to the raw, all seem to point to him using a "technique". Whether it's a barrier ninjutsu, or not, it does need mentioning, IMO. So, whatever you come up with, I will agree to.JaZZBaND (talk) 21:18, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * The translation I read didn't say former vessel. They were seemingly discussing something related to Edo Tensei--Elveonora (talk) 11:58, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

Bump, this topic is actually a worthwhile and interesting, I'd really like to know what the actual chapter says because I remember it interpreting differently--Elveonora (talk) 20:13, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Bump again, I don't know more than the rest here but I am interested as well, so a conclusion would be nice!Norleon (talk) 23:01, June 23, 2013 (UTC)

substitute technique?
Perhaps some still remember my living corpse reincarnation topic and as you may know, it works by him swallowing a host and taking over by suppressing the host's soul and transferring his own into that individual's body, his own body then logically (soulless) dies. He wears a mask to appear like himself etc. but in case of Zetsu transfer, not only Oro's snake form looked differently, but the way he did it changed as well, entering the victim's mouth instead of swallowing, and physically merging and changing instead of just taking over with his soul. I believe I have come with a solution for this, that is what he first did was in fact White Snake Possession to enter the clone's body (I know it's ova only, this wouldn't be the first time when a technique or a concept appeared first in anime before canon) and then used Living Corpse Reincarnation the reason being for why he has changed into his original form is that through the zetsu clone body, he used Substitute Technique with his own chakra and changed into "himself" /solved?--Elveonora (talk) 17:01, May 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * I did some thinking on what exactly you mean, and I have to say that I agree. I admit, I was skeptical as to the differences between what he did to the Zetsu clone and Genryuumaru. Also, the same goes for what he was trying to do to Sasuke, during their brief battle. In addition, the way he took over the Zetsu clone body was, oddly, the EXACT SAME WAY as he did in that ova to Kajika; he took on Oro's eyes and voice, and ect ( before he took on his complete appearance/ before substitute technique ). As for the Substitute technique, I agree completely, as I was pondering the same thing! I used to be under the impression that he uses the Vanishing facial copy thing to replace his appearance. But after seeing that weird transformation, I noticed it was similar to Zetsu clones in the anime. I agree that, since we have a lot of evidence and it totally stands to reason he should have the the substitute technique, that we add the jutsu to his listing. I mean, we DID add wood release and the mention of sage mode, so why not the Substitute Technique? JaZZBaND (talk) 17:19, May 5, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you a lot, the only reason why I even bothered to bring this up is because it surprisingly even makes sense and is logical and doesn't contradict anything, I would like an opinion of more people this time and not my topic getting ignored or forgotten (again... T_T)--Elveonora (talk) 17:47, May 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * So what do we do now? JaZZBaND (talk) 18:27, May 5, 2013 (UTC)

I'm gonna kneel and pray for someone competent to actually give a damn in the least--Elveonora (talk) 18:32, May 5, 2013 (UTC)

Well, it is a logical way to explain the differences on how the body changed between Orochimaru taking over Zetsu and Orochimaru took over other hosts, but until that actually becomes an issue in-universe, I don't quite see the necessity of pointing that out. I'm just not sure on why we'd bump White Snake Possession up the canon ladder. The use of Zetsu's Substitute Technique should be enough to account for the morphing into Orochimaru, even if he entered the host differently. For the moment, I see this explanation as a back up: if this ever becomes a subject of scrutiny, we already have an answer for it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:43, May 5, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for an acknowledgment ;) well, from my point of view, it's not a matter of issue rather accuracy of information provided/details etc. and this wouldn't be the first thing listed that wasn't spelled out word by word but rather concluded by materials already provided, thought and logic. You know to this day articles like Body Flame Technique and some others irk me, if it were on me alone, I would either drastically change, put up a "possibly false" notice or delete them. I'm sure not even 1% of fanbase gives a damn about this specific "issue" or rather case, but thankfully there are some that do, (I wonder who that may be...) but you do admit it contradicts everything we know about Living Corpse Reincarnation I guess so rather to assume it's a retcon or Orochimaru improved somehow on while being dead or simply Kishi decided to change it on a whim, this is what happened. Not to mention Orochimaru changing into... "Orochimaru" looks exactly the way Zetsu change into people and back. For the white snake possession, I find that one important as well as he couldn't just transform into white snake himself and swallow that clone since he was gonna die but had to do it through an alternative and that also fits the description.--Elveonora (talk) 18:55, May 5, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but I can't believe such an ASSUMPTION was taken at the face value without any solid facts from the manga. That clearly contradicts the whole politics of this wiki. I can't see how what's happened with Zetsu clone is different from what's happened with Gen'yūmaru. Remember, Orochimaru didn't just use some form of "mask", it was a jutsu, and this jutsu doesn't only change one's face, it changes the whole body (yes, Orochimaru didn't have boobs while he was in that female body). And we have never seen the process of this change - it may be absolutely similar with Substitute jutsu. So there is no reason to assume Orochimaru used Zetsu's substitute jutsu and not his own, even if he really should be able to use the former. And now we are adding the whole jutsu based on what?Faust-RSI (talk) 12:13, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

Read first how living corpse reincarnation works. Orochimaru just transfers his soul into a host body, it doesn't change. He only then wore a mask to resemble himself. The "boobs" part while interesting, is questionable. Perhaps "she" was flat-chested or he additionally modified the body. Tobirama noted whole of Orochimaru's body now make Hashirama's cells, what's not clear?--Elveonora (talk) 13:01, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

What part of your post is relevant to the question? Yes, in previous cases he used the body changing jutsu after the transfer, but who said he can't do it instantly? It's only your assumption based on nothing. And the zetsu clone case only proves he CAN do it instantly, not that he used ANOTHER jutsu. OMG, what is questionable? We saw Oro naked in shower, read the manga. And the anime shows even more of him (naked). I'll better believe anime as the secondary canon than your baseless assumptions. And I don't know what is not clear to you, Hashi's cells are irrelevant again as the whole your post. His body changing jutsu only alters his LOOKS, not the cellular structure of the body. This is where it is similar to Substitution jutsu. I'm going to remove Orochimaru from the list of users if we won't have more opinions on the issue. Or maybe you will provide something RELEVANT to the topic.Faust-RSI (talk) 13:14, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

There is no such thing as body changing jutsu. Re-read the manga again, him having his own face was nothing but a skin mask, under that you could see faces of the female and Genyumaru as they are. If it worked as you falsely believe it to, he wouldn't need to wear a mask and would have changed everything face included. Karin has no breasts at all either, is she a man in your opinion?--Elveonora (talk) 13:18, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

Karin is a girl, but that's, again, irrelevant. The only one needing re-read the manga is you. Because it's clearly not just a skin mask, his trick with revealing his face was just that - a trick. And he could instantly "repair" his face without needing any additional skin (see his fight vs Hiruzen). This jutsu changes the WHOLE of his body - the whole body has his skin colour, his hairs, his teeth, his tongue and his gender. This image [of him while possessing female] even included in his article and you're still insisting on your nonsense: http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/File:The_Vessel_Arrives_Too_Late.JPG Re-watch episode 118 or reread chapter 198. This jutsu changes the whole of his body (but not on the cellular level), and the ability to change faces just shows he can choose to change the separate body part with it. That's it, I'm tired of providing you with canon facts while you only spreading assumptions. Say something that is backed by manga or anime or just stop.Faust-RSI (talk) 13:33, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

You brought up breasts as your "proof" not me, but ok. Re-read/re-watch his fight against Naruto. When Orochimaru was punched by him, his mask peeled off, what's not clear to you? Perhaps we speak different dialects. You are free to believe your fanon though--Elveonora (talk) 13:41, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

The breasts I brought have nothing to do with Karin, that's why your statement is irrelevant, is it clear enough? Him having mask on his face doesn't change the fact his whole body is changed in any way possible. Maybe if one hits him strongly enough into his chest while him possessing female body, that part of his body would also reveal the boob under the skin, lol That's funny but that's how it is - his whole body is changed, skin or not, and it always was like that prior to Zetsu case.Faust-RSI (talk) 13:51, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

Karin is a flat-chested female, you are using the shower image as evidence, so that's an answer for ya. The only things that change about the host bodies are voice, eyes and skin color, a clear signs of possession. Otherwise they stay as are. But I don't want to argue about facts anymore, some other time bro--Elveonora (talk) 13:59, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

This is not an answer in any way, as Karin has no physical relation to Orochimaru. And enough of this fanon, Karin may not have the biggest breasts, but she has them nevertheless, small or not. On the picture you can see a MAN'S CHEST and stature, if you are going to argue about that I have nothing to talk about with you. Thus no, it's not only the voice, eyes and skin. It's the whole body, or, more specifically, everything that is visible, somehow you forgot to mention hairs, teeth and tongue. As I said, it's not like it's impossible for Oro to use the Substitution jutsu. But as long as he has the alternative and the manga didn't mention the Substitution jutsu specifically, we must not add it. I see you're deaf to the voice of reason, so I'm going to wait couple of days for the comments from other users.Faust-RSI (talk) 05:44, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

The way I understand it is Oro looks like the host body and has the ability to change it to his original or back and forth as he did when showing this to the Third. He needed the mask to look like Shiore because he just killed him. Arrancar79 (talk) 05:59, June 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * What makes him look like himself is an extra layer of fake skin on top of the host body serving as a mask though, hell he even gets weight and height of the host bodies, check the databook stats.

@Faust, in the manga image, his chest can barely be seen, you haven't seen real breasts, have you? Tits hang down without a bra and aren't located that high, unless they are fake. Exactly where the view is cut down is where they usually do begin. Animators deciding to show more of it isn't any proof, they don't know any better. In other words, you are wrong no matter what. That's for your confusion, now to the technique, he changed the exact same way Zetsus do when they use it, what are the odds that he doesn't have their abilities, Mokuton and all?--Elveonora (talk) 09:06, June 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * no proof for lack of breasts because that much can't be seen and even lack of it wouldn't be evidence because less gifted females exist too
 * provided you evidence that it's just a skin mask and that the host bodies do not change
 * what else?
 * All I need to know is that animators know better than YOU, they are secondary canon while you are just nobody, no offence. lol @ "you are wrong no matter what" - you seriously need to take a break :D Weight and height proves nothing, as I don't deny this jutsu just covers the host body with "Orochimaru's skin", I'm arguing this "skin" is far more complex jutsu than you think, able to change physical treats of the possessed body on similar level like Substitution jutsu. Anime image proves that. So relax, and don't try to be above people who actually creates "Naruto" universe ;) Faust-RSI (talk) 09:33, June 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Such a thing as a secondary canon doesn't exist. Anime proves nothing, they did many things not only wrong but as they wish and still do, so relax too. What he does is this Vanishing Facial Copy Technique except this time he didn't--Elveonora (talk) 10:08, June 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Vanishing Facial Copy Technique is a far lesser degree jutsu. It takes A REAL FACE SKIN FROM A REAL BODY. Now whose face and from what body Oro takes every time he recreates his face on the host's body? :D The jutsu he uses on the hosts is just another step of Transformation Technique and also far more similar to Orochimaru-Style Body Replacement Technique than to Facial Copy Technique, as it recreates/replaces Oro's features all over the host's body (it also echoes the "snake" theme - lossing skin for rebirth). Maybe this jutsu IS derived or just a stronger version of Vanishing Facial Copy Technique (like Raikiri is stronger version of Chidori etc.), I don't know. It's really just a Transformation Technique with a somewhat real skin and more chakra which makes it more durable. Transformation Technique can easily change gender, as we all know. The only difference is that it doesn't go "poof" when hit, it just looses skin.Faust-RSI (talk) 11:14, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

Oro technique has nothing to do with Zetsu technique, plain and simple. --Dan.Faulkner (talk) 11:16, June 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * "Plain and Simple"? Are you serious? You must not have taken a look at the chapter Orochimaru used the Substitute technique. The effect of which Orochimaru underwent is the same as the Zetsu (and the Zetsu Army) underwent when using the same technique. Furthermore, no one says that the Vanishing Facial Copy only works once. Heck, he could of used it again to get his face back during the fight with the Third Hokage. Infact, theoretically, Orochimaru can change his face into anyone that he used the VFC on, any amount of times. And for you to say that he maybe "recreates his body", is a bunch of fanon bull. Obvisously, once he fought Naruto, when Naruto hit him directly in the face, his skin peeled, to reveal Genryuumaru's face underneath. SO, THAT MUST MEAN THAT HE PREVIOUSLY USED THE VFC TECHNIQUE AFTER CHANGING BODIES. The difference now is that he used the SUbstitute Technique, due to the fact that he took over the body of a Zetsu. That my friend, is what's "plain and simple". Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:'JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 11:35, June 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * "theoretically, Orochimaru can change his face into anyone that he used the VFC on, any amount of times" - that's what's called a "bunch of fanon bull", my friend.Faust-RSI (talk) 11:53, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

Let me enlighten you my friend. i'm going to reformulate my statement, i never said that the techniques don't look alike, they are in fact very similar, but they are not the same. I could be wrong, but i only affirm something with evidence, like this wiki does. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 12:05, June 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Point blank, evidence points to what I say is true. There was not a specified limit. "Recreates his body", specifically goes against that fact that Orochimaru had to forcibly modify the body of his host to gain his original appearance. If it automatically recreated his body, how do you explain the height differential between the two different bodies he's ,taken over the series, to his own original one? Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 12:05, June 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * You're just brilliant, taking words out of context, changing their meaning, pretending they are mine and then arguing with them :D I would suggest you to read carefully what I've explicitly explained. "Recreates body" is a bullshit you invented yourself. What I said was "it recreates/replaces Oro's features all over the host's body".Faust-RSI (talk) 12:13, June 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh gosh, I sincerely apologise if I've mixed your words up, friend. The point, however, still remains. The jutsu in which Orochimaru takes over a victims body does not replace anything but it's soul. Like I said before, Orochimaru replaces his features after words. Evidence: Peeling off his skin to reveal the first host's face and Naruto knocking the skin off of his face to reveal Genryuumaru's face. He previously used the VFC in both cases. As compared to what we know about him retaining his appearance in previous methods, this time he clearly used the Substitute technique. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 12:30, June 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't know why you brought the jutsu in which Orochimaru takes over a victims body into this discusion, nobody there mentioned Living Corpse Reincarnation, you are mixing something up. Yes, Oro replaces his features afterwards, I completely agree. But I disagree he simply uses VFC, because we were shown the features of the whole body are changed, including gender, like with Transformation Technique and yes, similar to Substitute technique.Faust-RSI (talk) 13:52, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

Where in manga or anime did you read that? you are assuming that is the Substitute Technique, i don't know for certain if it is, so i'm not going to state something without solid evidence, Hashirama DNA doesn't mean that he as some Zetsu skills, if you're right, i will apologize my self properly to you. But if you're wrong, you should apoligize you're self for that antagonist behavior :p. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 13:23, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

I think I'll just stop arguing and support what Dan.Faulkner said - the Substitute Technique is an assumption and it should be remove until solid evidence occurs. I'll better wait for some more people opinions.Faust-RSI (talk) 13:52, June 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * The Titans is this even about?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:40, June 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * Whether Orochimaru used the Substitute Technique or has a similar technique to transform host bodies into replicas of himself, as well as how he was able to apply his own face over his hosts' several times with Vanishing Facial Copy. The fact that he never used this method of transforming before taking a Zetsu body would imply it is Substitute, since in the past the only physical traits that would change on his soul's hosts without further modifications were their eyes. However, Tobirama sensing that Orochimaru's body had Hashirama's cells shouldn't be possible if he used Substitute Technique, unless it worked differently in this circumstance because of Orochimaru's new Hashirama-influenced chakra signature or something.--BeyondRed (talk) 17:18, June 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * The main reason for using Naruto in the war (at the beginning) were his evil-sensing abilities, because no sensor in the Alliance could recognize Substitution technique. So either you're implying Tobirama is best sensor in the world, better than Naruto (and sensing isn't even his primary specialization), or you should admit Oro didn't use Substitution jutsu.Faust-RSI (talk) 17:55, June 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok, wow, that is a great point. If it is not the substitution technique, then I will apologise. And im sorry already for my behavior, I musta just been cranky -__-. However, I will still stand by my side of this argument. Just because Tobirama sensed Hashirama's cells inside Oro, doesn't mean anything right now. Infact, I believe that even if a normal Zetsu used substation technique, he would still sense his brothers cells in them. Listen, the major difference that keeps me so obdurate on my belief, is the rate of his transformation. Not only did he change back into himself in a matter of seconds (which he hasn't done before as shown with Genryuumaru), but he grew an arm, hair, and practically the other side of his body. And please allow me to bring back my old point: Oro used VFC, to gain his original face, after taking over his host's body. It was clearly shown when in the fight with Naruto and the Third. How did he change the gender? Well, it was said that he completely modifies the body to get his original appearance. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 18:30, June 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok, so can I make it short and simple? Your main point is basically the transformation time - earlier cases were done with VFC plus body modification and that needs much more time than we saw in Zetsu's clone case, yes?Faust-RSI (talk) 09:20, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

He sensed them because he is their summoner, he noticed he uses Hashirama's power to strengthen the binding--Elveonora (talk) 18:33, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

Shall we wait for more information on that, last chapter made me believe there is some sort of a sinister plan from Orochimaru´s side. At least i hope :). @Faust-RSI made the best point remembering Naruto's skill. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 19:00, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

Not really, read above. Tobirama said Orochimaru's body is Hashirama's cells, how he could tell is simple, Edo Tensei feel chakra of their summoned, just like Kimimaro could tell Orochimaru\s chakra brought him.--Elveonora (talk) 19:32, June 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Except Substitution jutsu completely changes chakra signature so Naruto is the only one who can not even sense, but feel it, and not because he senses different chakra, but because he feels EVIL INTENT. Please, read the manga.Faust-RSI (talk) 09:20, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

@Faust-RSI i will say it again, that is the best point so far. For the others, i can only say that this wiki should never support his informations on assumptions like the one made. @Elveonora your logic was very good, but as you see, there is a lot of discrepancy into that logic, and because is an assumption only made by logic that every one as not 100% sure. Orochimaru should be taken as a Substitute Technique user. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 09:50, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

@Faust, you misunderstood, Tobirama commented on Orochimaru having Hashirama's cells, not his chakra. That's because their Edo Tensei binding is strengthened with Hashirama's power, and Tobirama even saw the Zetsu transforming into Orochimaru moments before that--Elveonora (talk) 13:35, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

OMG, I can't really believe that some one could say that this is the Substitute Technique. End reading chapter 618. The name of the technique says it all "Substitute Technique", Substitute Technique absorbs other individual chakra and assumes the individual anatomy and chakra, Substitute Technique never worked as possessing someone and turn into him self. Oro was dying when he possesses the White Zetsu clone, he didn't need to supress the White Zetsus clone's soul because he didn't has it. That's why he act in a diferent manner. Because the White Zetsu is already soulless, Oro only needs to possess his target and then do like he allways does, changing all the physiognomy to him self. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 17:44, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * And from which fanon website did you get that? Send me there, sounds like cool story to be observed by all of us. And stop using terms like "omg" and "wtf" and yelling at me in capitals, it's making you look really immature and to not be taken seriously.--Elveonora (talk) 18:39, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * I've grown weary of this. It's not even a discussion anymore, it's a back and forth with insults, accusations, and circular argument's that aren't based on what we've seen, what we know, or what we can conclude.
 * Fact: Orochimaru used Living Corpse Reincarnation to not die on a White Zetsu Clone.
 * Fact: Orochimaru transformed the Zetsu's clone's body into himself.
 * Fact: There are three ways he could have done so, which we are aware of, but we don't know which one he used; Vanishing Facial Copy Technique, Substitute Technique, Transformation Technique.
 * Fact: Tobirama was capable of sensing Orochimaru's chakra structure for two reasons: 1) He is a sensor. 2) He can sense the chakra signature of the one who resurrected him. It could be both of these or it could be none.
 * Beyond these facts, we don't know what Orochimaru did, nor can we be certain if he used any of those three techniques. At this point I would say we just don't mention any of it and just say he transformed.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 19:12, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

I'd like to end it too, surprisingly even I have better things to do than to waste time like this. Vanishing Facial Copy just adds a layer of skin on top of face, he didn't touch the Zetsu's face, he was tied and he clearly transformed physically. Transformation technique is instantaneous and leaves smoke behind. The way he did it also matched exactly Zetsu's substitution technique and there's even a sound effect on the panel when it happens--Elveonora (talk) 19:30, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

Yes i think the real fact here is that no one as sure what Orochimaru used. So the right atitude is taking Oro from Substitute Technique. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 20:05, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Nice straw-man you did there. Wait for opinions from other editors, also asked a translator to check the sound effect, if it matches with Substitute Technique one, it's evidence--Elveonora (talk) 20:09, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

@Elveonora i'm waiting on evidence and sorry for my behavior. little too much there. Hoping for a resolution to this subject. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 22:19, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Same, I wasn't very nice either, but please, let it be for now. We also list him as Mokuton user, what about that? More likely than not, he used this and even if he didn't, he gets all powers his host body possesses while occupying it so he can.--Elveonora (talk) 00:42, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

when head hit a wall
I know no matter what I say, people are going to disagree despite evidence, but whatever. A wiki is being run by many editors and each of us wants to fight through our word as valid. So for another time, Orochimaru WASN'T sealed by Itachi's Totsuka Sword. Read again how Yamata no Jutsu works, he transforms HIMSELF into that giant snake, meaning any part of it is him I believe it's even in the databook, same goes for his white-snake form, those little snakes are his "arms" The snake that escaped wasn't a summoned one/a separate being with its own consciousness, it was part of his body just like the rest, thus him. Another misconception is that he separates and seals parts of his soul into Curse Mark carriers, he does only chakra, since there is a reason why this can't be true. The way how I comprehend it, is that as long as his chakra is hosted in a living vessel, his soul gets "stuck" to that being/individual and as such stays in the impure world, that's how I think it works. What I'm trying to say is that his consciousness and soul weren't in Anko since he bit her. The thing he has memories of his defeat prove this. To get back why "Voldemort-style" can't be true, it's simple. The Shinigami cutting his arms alone stripped him of power and rotted his arms. There were hundreds Curse Marks subjects, he would be a powerless corpse by now according to your version with his soul resembling, nothing... you could clearly see his soul to have been whole when Hiruzen was pulling it out. /rant end--Elveonora (talk) 12:16, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

Orochimaru was sealed into the sword, and that's what it does (in application), regardless of how. But given what Orochimaru says about Kabuto, Cursed Seals, etc, it seems "part" of him is infact stored, whether it be chakra or a piece of his soul a la Voldermort. Orochimaru is a tricky person and he defies the laws of the Narutoverse in many ways. I cannot remember the thing abotu memories atm as I just woke up, but I'll say something later when I've "had my coffee".--Taynio (talk) 13:30, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * What was sealed was most of his body, he obviously escaped, that being the snake. Not only as stated, the technique transforms him into a giant hydra, but also there wouldn't have been any reason to draw that snake at all if it weren't him. It even went to hide and watched from shadows till Itachi died, then right after his death, it (he) came out. The only thing stored in the Cursed Seals is his chakra, I already explained why the soul part is false, not only it was nowhere mentioned, it defies other factors, thus it's fanmade "fact" not to mention his memories.--Elveonora (talk) 13:53, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * You can argue semantics until the horn blows (what?) but the fact remains Orochimaru was sealed into the sword and effectively "killed". If that white snake was another part of Orochimaru and it got killed, in the end it died anyway. So regardless is regardless he was effectively dead.
 * Now the other issue is your issue with him coming back to life via Cursed Seal. I...don't get the issue. He, all of him, came out of the Cursed Seal, aware of himself and aware of up to date on current events. I'm not sure...what the problem is there.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:08, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * The problem is he wasn't sealed after all if a part stayed and got later burnt by Amaterasu, so it's not a fact. The issue is that the consensus is he separates his soul which simply was nowhere stated and can't be true because the only separated part of his soul were his "arms" which he got back recently. Also if it were true he separates himself into multiple potential "Orochimarus" then the one from Anko couldn't know Sasuke much at all--Elveonora (talk) 14:12, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. Except he was sealed. Even if it was "part of him" it was sealed into the Sword. Even if the small snake did try and flee and survive, it got killed anyway. So regardless after the Itachi vs Sasuke battle Orochimaru was dead.
 * As for soul separation. Dafuq if that even makes since in universe. At the end of the day he was sealed, dead, whatever, and he got brought back via Cursed Seal, body, memories, and all. The fact Anko branded when she was young, and Orochimaru had memories of his actions including the Third chosing the Fourth as Hokage, his decision to leave the village, Naruto and Sasuke betraying and killing him the potential "Orochimarus" as you put it are up to date and basically Orochimaru as he was "at death".--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:26, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's why it's more than likely the "up-to-date" "Anko Orochimaru" is the very same so "sealed" (in fact killed by amaterasu) Orochimaru. The way it's interpreted now suggests that there could be an army of Orochimarus just by doing what Sasuke did on every Cursed Seal person. The same individual can't live twice. Edo Tensei makes it clear soul is required to revive someone, so chakra and DNA aren't enough, just look at Hashirama's Living Clone it's dead. Only by using Yin-Yang release could Madara "breathe" life into these Hash clones and make Zetsu.

The only time a soul separation was done is Death Reaper no jutsu arm incident thingy. Again, there were hundreds of Cursed Seal carriers, he obviously didn't cut his soul into many pieces, look only what arms have done to him. Hopefully it's clear. So not only we at wikia incorrectly state he was sealed, but that he is a cloned Voldemort--Elveonora (talk) 14:50, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * /sigh Except we didn't incorrectly state he was sealed. The sword seals those it hits. He was sealed, hell he even spoke as he got sucked into the sword. Hell technically he still is sealed. The article suggests that a potential army of Orochimaru's exist because with the information we have, that is exactly the case. If or not multiple Orochimaru's can be Evil Unsealing Method'd out of the Cursed Seals is possible, we may never know, but we do know two things: he was sealed/killed/whatever and Cursed Seals can revive him out of that state. We can argue semantics and different interpretations till the end of time if you prefer, but what we have is what we have. He died/sealed/blahblahblah and returned.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 15:08, May 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * Except that's how it happened, sweety. Sasuke revived Orochimaru, who was dead, by using the Cursed Seal (chakra, part of him), some technique, and a piece of his DNA via Kabuto (who was infected by Orochimaru's cells). The Cursed Seal is placed with Senjutsu chakra, which is poured into it. Despite being split from it, his consciousness remained in it, explicitly stated by Orochimaru when he says he "saw" everything from the Cursed Seal, and immediately after when he said how he did it. Dislike it all you desire, Elv, but that's exactly what happened. Given flashbacks, he could have done it with anyone that he placed a CS on/in. It's not about cutting his soul into pieces, because that's not how the Narutoverse works; it uses other things. And it's how it works in Naruto, and you just have to accept that. --Taynio (talk) 15:16, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hey there Orochimaru was sealed and destroyed but not he still lived on through his chakra (being present in others such as anko) now Orochimaru is a freak and has mastered 'many' Jutsu he must of developed the cursed seal for another reason being to live on through it and feed off the vessel, now he was sealed by Itachis' sword yes, that part of him was His body but Orochimaru has displayed that he can create many vessels of himself, how he Is present in the manga Justifies that he could of developed his chakra to turn Into a living being (Just like tailed beasts) and be freed and live on In another body thats what i think --94.8.255.122 (talk) 15:18, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * The person above Is me I Just wasn't logged In but remember Orochimaru Is clever and probvably would of created such a Jutsu that could turn his stored chakra Into a living being --ROOT 根 (talk) 15:20, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

@Yaynio, sweety? Since when are we a couple, news to me. I'm not saying otherwise, please, read properly what I wrote. You don't have to tell me already what I know about blah blah, I'm arguing about his apparent Totsuka Sealing and separation of soul into pieces which both are false. Another Orochimaru can't be removed while 1 already lives no matter what you believe. And yes, he developed the Cursed Seals for 3 main reasons (to make strong soldiers and possibly enslave them if they overuse it, to prepare potential hosts he could transfer to, to have himself revived in case he gets destroyed), I read the manga as you do and it was me who made the additional edits to the article once it has been revealed, so no need to act as a wise one. Apparently some walls around here are too dull to break. How can you still believe the Totsuka Sword sealed him while there's evidence you can read that makes it obviously false?--Elveonora (talk) 15:46, May 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * Lol, I didn't say it as if we were a couple, silly.I know what you're arguing about, Elv, I am not acting as a wise one, we've had this discussion before. But Orochimaru was sealed. Just because pieces of him may exist in un-revived form (and its important to remember Orochimaru himself says he was revived) doesn't mean he isn't dead. He was simply revived because of the leftover pieces -- that's how we can still believe it. It's really a simple and short concept: he was sealed, Sasuke used remaining pieces of him to resurrect him with a technique Orochimaru invented himself. (P.S. just incase you don't know, I'm the anon you talk to, I just decided to log in)--Taynio (talk) 16:07, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * He was revived through chakra --ROOT 根 (talk) 16:11, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

@Taynio, figured as much, why does it matter though if you are "Taynio" or 98.xx whatever, stranger one way or another, no offense. Again, a living snake escaped thus he wasn't sealed because the whole creature was him, that's like saying that amputating someone's legs kills the person because part of him/her was gotten rid of or even more ridiculously that each part of your body is its own separate person. Sorry for being an asshole now, but sometimes I have to to get a point across. So now hopefully that this has been clarified from now on, for the rest. Hashirama's Living Clone isn't conscious because it has no soul, meaning Orochimaru's soul must have been available for the thing that came out of Anko (created using his chakra and flesh) to be sentient and possess memory. People assumed because of this that he must be separating his soul, but not only no such thing is ever stated (thus an assumption) it defies other concepts of Narutoverse and logic, re-read the part about separating himself into hundreds of pieces would reduce him to nothingness, since not only his soul in Part I. appeared whole, but separating just arm made him almost powerless and to rot, but now I'm just repeating myself.--Elveonora (talk) 16:48, May 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * Similar to another topic we had, I think I may be done with this conversation because you are missing the points that even Orochimaru himself state. It's not open to argument or interpretation. And no, it isn't because you were an "asshole", because you weren't one, lol. But no point go across, either, because it's a silly point that defies what actually happened. And no, it doesn't matter if I am 98* or Taynio, but I just wanted to let you know, incase you felt I was being condescending as Taynio, and I'm not.--Taynio (talk) 16:59, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

There is some more evidence to suggest that what Elveonora is saying is true. With Kabuto, we saw that the white snakes are an extension of the user, not actual living things like summoned snakes. They have the same chakra as the one who created them, can be modified by the creator (size changing), and stop moving if their creator falls into genjutsu (Izanami), for example. Kabuto even seemed to split his body into snakes at one point. The snakes that came out of Orochimaru when he was sealed kept moving, implying his consciousness was still controlling them in some way. I actually proposed making a technique article for the white snakes that come out of the body before (in archive 3 of this page), since we know more than enough about them from Kabuto's usage and three different people have used them now (Orochimaru, Sasuke with Orochimaru absorbed, and Kabuto). Also, wasn't it Orochimaru's conciousness that was split into the cursed seals? It can't be his soul. He only has one soul and it's within the Orochimaru body that was revived by Sasuke right now, which is why his arms' souls went back into that body when they were freed from the Shinigami.--BeyondRed (talk) 20:30, May 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * Except what Elv and you state is completely contradictory to what Orochimaru himself says, as well as others, and there's not even a reason to bring souls into the conversation. You're also looking at it in extremely limited manners. The snake moving means his consciousness was controlling it? Or how about it was a snake that simply was moving. Not that I am saying it is, but you'd assume if it was something that special there'd come something later regarding it, consciousness or not. But I simply don't see why you all have such an issue with how it's been played out. Orochimaru is killed by Sasuke, yet he also lives on in every Cursed Seal mark (part of his immortality). He also was able to live on through his corpse, seemingly, given what happened to Kabuto and the implied resurrection if it completely took forever.


 * Was Orochimaru sealed? Yes. He lived on in Sasuke, came back, and then was sealed. A fragment, a la Voldermort, lived on in Anko, also where part of his consciousness was (as well as every other Cursed Seal mark). He was resurrected once against due to Sasuke. There's also no reason to suggest he'd be weaker because of splitting himself into CSs, simply because it's how Voldermort did it. This is how it happened, he died, resurrected, was sealed, was resurrected, and is alive again. You don't have to try and argue semantics, meanwhile arguing against what the characters themselves have stated outright or implied, and then forcing other universe's rules into the Narutoverse. He may have had a consciousness due to the Senjutsu and etc in CS, even the snake that got away, but that doesn't mean he was not sealed, now does it? Semantics are awful..... God. Orochimaru is unique and we should expect different things from him. Sasuke absorbed part of Orochimaru (gaining the abilities), yet Orochimaru was still slain. The whole regarding Orochimaru is supposed to be weird and confusing, that's the intent.--98.101.165.89 (talk) 21:10, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

@Beyond, finally someone with a brain matter in skull instead of foreign contents. Hydra body was Orochimaru (databook), snake kept moving thus it was him, how can people deny facts is unknown to me when even the author makes the intention super obvious by drawing damn panels with it. It's either ignorance, bias or they simply do not really care if something is true as long as is satisfying as is to them. The only confirmed thing that gets split among the hosts in the tattoos is his chakra. His soul was torn apart only once and by Hiruzen, now it's fully restored. The Voldemort stuff is nothing but speculation, yet it's passed on as facts, while facts are being ignored. What a sad world we live in. Maybe I care about Naruto too much, this isn't about me being right or wrong, it's about the information provided being either, while I'm quite certain it's the latter in this case. Lot of misinformation and misinterpretation among the fanbase is still believed to be true, like Konoha being 200 years old and other **** how can anyone even believe themselves that he would split his soul while he did all he could to get back his arms, it's intelligence defying. Not only he has all memories, but he is yet to reference his so apparent sealing by Itachi. That's because he got burnt by Amaterasu instead and then somehow appeared in Anko only afterwards, he wasn't always there. @98, what is contradictory? At least provide how anything that is discussed here conflicts with manga/databook facts, quite the opposite actually. Please read again what I'm repeating all along. Most of his body was sealed at that time, the snake that was left was him, otherwise there wouldn't be any reason for it to move and be drawn at all, the snakes on Orochimaru's body aren't alive, they are his arms and extra eyes and mouths. Again, don't bring Voldemort into this, no only NOWHERE such thing is mentioned, what I'm continuously saying is that it can't be true. Please, don't interpret things in your own way. And no, the cells taking over Kabuto would have created Orochimaru 2, kinda like Zetsu Clone, a separate character. Also nowhere it was said he lives on through every Curse Mark holder, that's again just an assumption made. He potentially does, not actually. Again, people assume just because he came out of Anko that he would come from everyone. Also don't confuse semantic with facts. I'm not forcing anything, quite opposite, the topic is about removal of misinformation and misinterpretation.--Elveonora (talk) 21:28, May 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I am done with this, as well. Not only do you continue to insult to such an amazing degree, you misinterpret direct statements by the characters, you make mountains out of molehille panels that have no bearing on the future ever since they appeared, which is the same thing you do in almost everything you discuss and think is "true" and everyone is a retard, by your definition, for somehow missing something that doesn't exist. Your post is riddled with inaccuracies, stuffing peoples' mouths with MANY, MANY words never said, and using weak, unrelated points to try and support an argument that shouldn't even exist because it contradicts the very manga you claim to "support". --Taynio (talk) 14:03, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * There is nothing I misinterpret, it's the other way around actually. No offense, but just because you can't comprehend it, doesn't make it false. List me those "inaccuracies, stuffing peoples' mouths with MANY, MANY words never said, and using weak, unrelated points to try and support and argument that shouldn't even exist because it contradicts the very manga you claim to support" at least try to defend yourself otherwise than by playing the victim card, feeling offended, I haven't called you a retard personally, did I? Point me to which part you disagree with. The snake? Already explained it. Not only panels aren't drawn for no apparent reason without any meaning because ink and space can be saved for as you say relevant matters, but the databook itself states he transforms into that eight-headed serpent so any part of it is him. But yada yada, I must be a masochist that I still bother.--Elveonora (talk) 14:26, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

Height and Weight
Why does it say that Orochimaru lost weight and height over the timeskip? Is this a typo or genuine information? (Himelover567 (talk) 07:00, May 22, 2013 (UTC))
 * It comes from the databooks. It might have something to do with him changing body between the second and the third databook. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 07:06, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Because he switches bodies, isn't that obvious?--Elveonora (talk) 10:19, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I never thought that Orochimaru's weight and height would change when he changed bodies. I assumed he modified himself so he could adjust those factors. (210.49.83.157 (talk) 07:31, May 24, 2013 (UTC))

Designing Jutsu
Orochimaru, throughout the series, has designed many jutsu. Namely the Underworld Turnover Technique, the Four Violet Flames Battle Encampment, and the Four Black Fog Battle Formation, respectively. If he designed these techniques, why don't we add him to his list? JaZZBaND (talk) 21:26, June 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't recall that ever being said. Maybe the Underworld Turnover, but Four Violet Flames is a weak version of Four Red Suns, and that appears to be older than him, since Hashirama and Tobirama knew it. Don't recall anything on Four Black Fog either. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:02, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * The underworld turnover and the four black fog formation? Even if we exclude the others, both these jutsu were designed by Orochimaru. I'm glad you recognized the turnover technique, but as for the fog formation, it was created to house and speed up the curse mark. Since it was made to specifically increase the curse marks influence. I honestly think he should be listed as a user. JaZZBaND (talk) 01:02, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Just to play the devil's advocate here, did the episode imply in anyway that it was Orochimaru indeed who designed the jutsu? Because technically Kabuto was also highly involved in Orochimaru's experiments, it could be something Kabuto developed. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:05, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, indeed it did, my friend. I recall the Sound Four Saying that it was a "power that Lord Orochimaru had given them". JaZZBaND (talk) 01:34, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Couldn't that be just the cursed seals? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:36, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I watched the episode,Shippuden 305, again and I saw that Orochimaru gave them a power that would activate when reincarnated. Infact, he notes that the power was a result of the curse marks. So, by that, should we link the Underworld Turnover with the curse marks, instead of just Orochimaru? (by the way, how do I change the style of my username's signature?)JaZZBaND (talk) 03:21, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * If it's a direct consequence of their Cursed Seals, it should be added as the technique's parent technique and removed from Orochimaru's techniques. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:36, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yea, that's what I thought. In addition, ill add Orochimaru's contribution, instead of adding him as a user. JaZZBaND - Jake Walker (talk) 23:52, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Does the fact that the alliance already knew of Underworld Turnover not imply that it was a pre-existing technique though? I doubt they'd have intel on the intricacies of Orochimaru's Cursed Seals.--BeyondRed (talk) 23:53, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * They knew nothing of the jutsu. Are you sure? JaZZBaND - Jake Walker (talk) 23:54, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * The shinobi at headquarters knew that it trapped souls in a barrier and such, at least.--BeyondRed (talk) 01:45, June 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * The only thing they did was deduce the mechanics of the technique.JaZZBaND - Jake Walker (talk) 03:38, June 11, 2013 (UTC)

Zetsu's abilities
It's like if everyone had their own propaganda here :-) It's understandable, everyone wants to push through their opinion, his/her voice to be heard. To make it clear, I don't want to cause troubles, headaches or anything, but please, it's not reasonable to choose what gets listed because of bias and what doesn't. This should be discussed. Now, it's obvious that after taking over a clone, Orochimaru got his abilities. Wood Release gets a free pass, but why not other abilities? He is yet to be seen using Mokuton. As an example, we list Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu as Madara's technique because more likely than not, they are a requirement for Susanoo. In both cases, it gets listed because "it must be for x and because of y" but as an example, Paths Techniques in cases of both Madara and Obito do not get the same luxury despite the fact, that the former taught the latter "six paths technique" so obviously they can use all 6/7. How do you justify that? Because it can't be.

Now for the matter at hand, now only Orochimaru did something that resembles nothing but Substitute Technique, he should be listed either way because so is Wood Release. All Zetsus can use it and on top of that Mayfly, so explain me, why not?--Elveonora (talk) 20:47, June 22, 2013 (UTC)

Well, there is no actual difference, And everything you say is true. Even I csn be quoted by saying that this wikia isway too inconsistent. It's just that the voices of the few get overpowered by the voices of the many. That is what a democratic society is. That is how the wikia works, sadly. KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 00:43, June 23, 2013 (UTC)

In this case i also have to agree with @Elve...many of the users here are treading the Wood Release/Zetsu issue either like they are steping on eggshells or just ignoring the matter altogether. The thing and it's brothers are made through the KKG, to the point where they turn into trees when exposed to too much Yang chakra...so it's to assume that since most of their technique repertoire revolves around they manipulating their bodies on an organic level and in conjunction with the nature around it, those technique are WR as well. And we know Oro gains the techniques of the people he consumes...that's was pretty much the whole reason he spent 3 years training Sasuke and wanting to ride his ass (pardon my french). Darksusanoo (talk) 01:56, June 23, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for support. So admins and other editors any more words? More likely than not, Substitute Technique and Mayfly are off-shots of Hashirama's cells/Wood Release since all Zetsus have it by default. If it were unique to a specific single Zetsu then I wouldn't bother with this topic at all. --Elveonora (talk) 12:16, June 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll have to agree with this topic if the way that Orochimaru's took over the Zetsu's body have the same properties as Living Corpse Reincanation, this is different from what Orochimaru wanted to do with Sasuke, we don't know for sure if this way to take over someone's body gives him any host techniques. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 12:26, June 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * Of course it does, he is the Zetsu now. If it hasn't then neither it gave him Mokuton--Elveonora (talk) 12:46, June 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * For derived techniques, what is the rush in waiting until they are actually used? You guys keep talking about "it's not fair that x does and y doesn't" as if Orochimaru's article has somehow been woefully cheated because a bunch of techniques that he's never used aren't in his infobox. He has an article, find somewhere appropriate and mention the abilities of the Living Corpse Reincarnation and the fact that crawling down a White Zetsu clone's throat possibly gave him access to its abilities as well. Problem solved.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 13:08, June 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sounds good, but what about him having Wood Release listed due to occupying a WZ body, but no abilities mentioned or even better, his infobox states he is a Sage but there's no Sage Mode there, one can't go without the other--Elveonora (talk) 13:20, June 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * There is more to come, i am with @Cerez on this one. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 13:23, June 23, 2013 (UTC)

Well there are two major problems here...first the entire treatment given to Zetsu's abilitites most of which should be tied to the Wood Release, but are not...second if we know he gains the techniques, what's the problem i'n listing them? By the series pace, we'll all be old folks before we get to see Oro doing anythins Wood Release related. Darksusanoo (talk) 19:54, June 23, 2013 (UTC)

No their not, Yamato uses Substitute Technique? He has Mokuton. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 20:01, June 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * So? Not all people who can use the same Nature Transformation, can use the same techniques...Darksusanoo (talk) 20:28, June 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * No one says substitute technique is Mokuton, it's illogical since there's no wood involved. But almost certainly it's an off-shot of Hashirama's cells, if it weren't then Zetsus wouldn't have it. Why not to list something we know he can use and more likely than not already used?--Elveonora (talk) 21:09, June 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Darksusanoo you said it, "Zetsu abilities most of wich should be tied to the Wood Release", Elve@ the only problem is that there are to much disagreemant about this. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 21:53, June 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * Like who? A random anon that went by? I see more agreements than disagreements, before Faust and the "shouldn't be the way" guys brought that up, it was there for weeks without a problem.--Elveonora (talk) 22:17, June 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't want to mention anyone, i agreed that trivia "Should be the Way" xD, @Elv, why such hurry? theres is more of Orochimaru to come, and if he shows any Zetsu skill, you will show on top, after all neglect behaviors towards you. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 22:33, June 23, 2013 (UTC)

And since I want to spare everyone of the not-liked-to-be-heard "told you!" it would be better to go with it right away ;D--Elveonora (talk) 22:49, June 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * What the majority agrees, i will accept it :p. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 23:13, June 23, 2013 (UTC)