Talk:Seven Ninja Swordsmen of the Mist/Archive 2

Debut
Any particular reason for that chapter/episode as the debut? I believe the debut should be either when they were first mentioned, which would place the debut around Zabuza's introduction in the beginning of the series, or when they first appeared as a team, which would make it a post-mortem debut, as resurrected shinobi. Opinions? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:14, February 19, 2012 (UTC)


 * Given that the term itself applies to multiple generations, rather than just those who appeared post-mortem, I think the first mention is the more appropriate of the two options that are suggested, which I believe is also consistent with what is done with other such groups. Blackstar1 (talk) 02:40, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Since most members are "former" (deceased or defected), I'd say Zabuza's debut would mark the group's. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 04:37, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Though I'd prefer it if it were when we say the group during the fourth war, there are multiple generations so it seems better to go with when the group was mentioned in this instance.--Cerez365™ 10:25, February 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok then, I go for the group's first mention. I'm not finding any reference to the group when Zabuza first appears, at least in the manga. What episode was that image that only had silhouettes from? Do we still have that? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:05, February 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Uhm, I checked the page history and it doesn't seem so. You might want to revive (File:Seven swordsmen.jpg) to see if it has the rationale information. I can't remember where the silhouette's from either.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 16:16, February 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Just checked the history, the rationale never listed the episode. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:41, February 19, 2012 (UTC)

Differentiating Generations
i personally think the members should be divided by what generation of the seven swordsman they belonged to, previous or current/recent i.e. Zabuza's Generation should be listed together (the seven revived ones), While their successors should be marked, i.e. Chojuro, Kisame, and Raiga, seperately. I was thinking dividing it in a similar fashion to how the edo tensei is divided amongst who summoned them.

these are my thoughts, do with them what ye will Shadowfox337 (talk) 00:22, March 25, 2012 (UTC)

Second coming of the demon
What does it stands for ? I always thought that it refer to Zabuza "the demon" but Zabuza was just a member of the group and Mangetsu leader, so why is the latter called second coming of the demon ? Maybe I have missed something--Elveonora (talk) 12:55, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

Bump, any idea ?--Elveonora (talk) 20:12, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

I think it was because Mangetsu and Suigetsu were adept at killing like Zabuza. Joshbl56 20:22, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

Possible ... just wonder what the term does refer to--Elveonora (talk) 20:28, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

missing members?
Since I don't read the manga I wouldn't know if it says something about it but, wasn't Jinpachi Munashi and Jinin Akebino mebers before their death? --Kasan94 (talk) 15:22, May 31, 2012 (UTC)


 * This is not really something regarding my first question, but thought i might write it here anyway. How come, I can't change the infobox on this page, but other pages I can?--Kasan94 (talk) 19:17, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

Yes they were. You can't be a member and dead. Why do you ask? As for your second question, the infobox or page may be locked to editing.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 19:19, May 31, 2012 (UTC)


 * For the first question. It was because earlier today their names wasn't showing, and nether the gender of one of the others, maybe just a bug from my computer, since they are there now. Second question. Ahh okay I have seen now that it is with most groups, but not with the persons.--Kasan94 (talk) 19:24, May 31, 2012 (UTC)

Now, Kushimaru isnt listed among the members, and Mangetsu with Raiga dont have their genders said there. Take a look on it please --VolteMetalic (talk) 20:02, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

We're experiencing issues with the infoboxes...--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 11:45, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Missing
Mangetsu Hōzuki is missing from the info box. Zelwolf (talk) 20:06, October 18, 2012 (UTC)Zelwolf
 * Refer to warning in the main page of the wiki. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:42, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Original Swords?
When they say hiramekarei is the only one that kirigakure has that is the original out of the seven swords, does that mean that the swords we saw during Edo Tensei weren't the original swords, or just that Kirigakure didn't have any except the hiramekarei? What I mean is, were the original swords the samehada, nuibari, etc, or were the original swords lost and replaced with those?--64.126.41.224 (talk) 05:09, April 15, 2013 (UTC)

It means what it says, the former, Kiri has only that glasses dude's fish chakra hammer sword. EDIT: not to mention the fact that the swords were stated to have been passed down from generation to generation should alone have answered your question and this is a more appropriate place to ask in the future, here--Elveonora (talk) 12:28, April 15, 2013 (UTC)

Trivia
Who is this: "Two members of the Seven Swordsmen (three in the anime) managed to fake their own deaths or regain life later on, by the means of an accomplice." Pointed towards, and why? --Kasan94 (talk) 17:54, September 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Zabuza faked his death with Haku's help, Kisame faked his death with Zetsu and Raiga regained his life thanks to Ranmaru. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 17:58, September 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ohh now I remember, I thought it was something further back in history :P my bad, thanks! --Kasan94 (talk) 18:03, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

Sauce
"The members of the Seven Ninja Swordsmen were the people who came from the Bloody Mist's graduation exams with the greatest battle skills." - Can I have sauce on that, please? Seelentau 愛議 14:56, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I can only assume a databook somewhere but by the Light I can't begin to tell you for sure.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 15:04, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

I believe it was either Kakashi, Kisame, or Zabuza who said it. Likely Kisame.--NaviiGator (A.K.A.KotoSenju) Talk Page-My Contributions 15:07, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Could you find me a source? :/ Seelentau 愛議 15:19, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yea, ill try n' find you one --NaviiGator (A.K.A.KotoSenju) Talk Page-My Contributions 15:23, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Alright sempai. I've found that source for you. It's chapter 14, pages 5-6. Kakashi said it to Zabuza in their first encounter. I also added the citation to the page as well. --NaviiGator (A.K.A.KotoSenju) Talk Page-My Contributions 15:44, March 12, 2014 (UTC) EDIT: By the way, are you going to try and get your own translation of the info?--NaviiGator (A.K.A.KotoSenju) Talk Page-My Contributions 15:46, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I would, but what I'm looking for isn't said there. :/ Seelentau 愛議 15:47, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

That wasn't the right source?--NaviiGator (A.K.A.KotoSenju) Talk Page-My Contributions 15:51, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, it doesn't say anything about the swordsmen. :/ Seelentau 愛議 16:48, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * There must be an error in interpretation here. This was the only source in the series that said the Bloody Mist held exams that had the students slaughter each other. The page says that "The members of the Seven Ninja Swordsmen were the people who came from the Bloody Mist's graduation exams with the greatest battle skills". This could have been a misinterpretation by us who assumed that since Zabuza did it, all the Ninja Swordsmen did. That would mean our wording could be wrong, but the source was the closest thing to what you were referring to.--NaviiGator (A.K.A.KotoSenju) Talk Page-My Contributions 16:58, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thought so. Thank you, anyway. ^_^ Seelentau 愛議 17:05, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Glad I could help ^_~--NaviiGator (A.K.A.KotoSenju) Talk Page-My Contributions 17:07, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Generations
From what that one swordsman said about how famous they are, I conclude that there's only been two generations of swordsmen and they indeed formed from the Chigiri's bloody exam. What do you guys think? Seelentau 愛議 15:19, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm just gonna say yeah and roll with it. What's the worst that could happen.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 15:21, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Suigetsu is planning to create his own generation of the swordsmen, so it'll become the next generation. Zabuza's group is the latest and the group which introduced today is the former/previous generation. So, it's two or three if we include Suigetsu's group. — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 15:23, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Their generation thing is odd. I agree that that was probably the first but not with the number of generations thus far. It appears that people can transition into generations which to me, makes it hard to count them.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 18:41, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Funny, I took that exchange similar to how Sasori and Kankurō talked when they first met. I saw the "oh, we're famous" as "oh, even children know about us". I didn't get any "we're a recently formed group" vibe at all. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:14, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Well, since the Chigiri exam information is most likely wrong, this theory becomes moot, too. Seelentau 愛議 22:21, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Well the group are well known in Kirigakure as basically their elite corps, but given they're basically a group of psychotic killers at any given point with a seemingly violent rite of succession, it could simply be that one guy is surprised at their notoriety outside the village because of any number of reasons ranging from "That's Bob, he's new" to "I thought we killed everyone who could tell anyone about us?" I wouldn't say they're a 'New Group' as such, considering Konoha is only in like their 5-6th generation from founding, but I'd say they're at least a 3-4 generations in. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 22:28, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

It's like this, isn't it? Seelentau 愛議 11:46, March 13, 2014 (UTC)

Members
Previous Shibuki Wielder didn't make it into the former members list with the other previous members, and i don't know how/have the permissions to edit that section. Shadowfox337 (talk) 17:30, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

How to deal with Raiga's inclusion in the manga?
Since the release of the last chapter, I've been watching the edits on this page, Raiga's page, etc... Something is bothering me with those edits. Raiga's a character we all know from the anime, but this was his very first appearance in the manga. Considering that manga info comes first and foremost, I think a few things should be considered:

1 - Ameyuri was stated as being part of the last generation of Mist Swordsman. Raiga was seen in this chapter along with members of a previous generation, so it's pretty sure he was part of that generation that came before Ameyuri. 2 - Some pages state that Raiga succeeded Ameyuri in the Swordsmen as Kiba's wielder... that may be true according to the anime, where they have shown Raiga wielding Kiba during Part I. Again, in the anime. 3 - We had a similar case with Gari and Pakura, where it was decided that the characters in the manga were different from the characters in the 3rd Shippuden movie. They only had the same design. 4 - If this is indeed Raiga and not a "new character with the same design as one that appeared in other piece of media", the only things we know about him from the manga are: A - He wields Kiba; B - His generation of Swordsmen came before the one with Zabuza, Ameyuri, Jinpachi and Mangetsu. Everything that we know from the Anime's Raiga should be taken with a grain of salt, even though it happened long before the manga appearance.

This to say that in my mind information like "Raiga succeeded Ameyuri" and "Raiga's inclusion in the manga creates a discrepancy" are not to be said. Manga is more important than anime, so the displayed info should be like "In the anime, Raiga succeeded Ameyuri and that creates a discrepancy".

Having said all of that (sorry about the long text), I think the higher-ups here in Naruto Wiki should decide how to deal with information regarding Raiga. Kyoraku08 (talk) 18:25, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

It should be written as it happens, kishi did this on purpose i think. Munchvtec (talk) 18:30, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think were wrong right off the bat in assuming that is Raiga simply because he looks like him. I preent to the court: Chūkichi, Pakura and Gari. Along with the fact that Raiga's teeth weren't sharpened in the anime nor is he named after produce. Rethinking it, I don't think we should be so quick to write him into canon.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 18:39, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

lets wait till next chapter then, maybe they'll show the fight and we'll learn more. I say leave the info till then. Munchvtec (talk) 18:41, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

@Cerez, there's no sharp teeth in the manga, either. Look closely. Its just the shine on his lips. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 18:52, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Edit: Also, the Chukichi, Pakura, and Gari argument doesn't quite apply here. Their only connection was their appearance. Raiga has an appearance, the exact weapons, and the exact team. There's actual evidence to him being who he is. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 18:55, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Unless the Japanese doesn't allow it, can't the "last" used with Ameyuri mean "previous", meaning that it would be possible for Raiga to have succeeded her? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:14, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * At the end of chapter 522, they're called 前任者達 zenninshatachi, meaning predecessors. Then, in the following chapter, they're described as "Even among the successive generations of swordsmen... they're only but strong shinobi, too!!" or so... Seelentau 愛議 11:08, March 13, 2014 (UTC)

If the term used was "predecessors" we may have found the answer, albeit a very speculative one... The "predecessors" must be the last wielders of each blade, since by the time of their summoning most blades had no wielder. That solves it for Zabuza, Ameyuri, Jinin, Jinpachi and Kushimaru... Fuguki was summoned as a "predecessor" since Kisame, Samehada's wielder, was still alive at time (hiding in Samehada). That leaves Mangetsu as Chojuro's "predecessor".

If this is true, Ameyuri may have succeded Raiga after his death in the anime and then died shortly afterwards, leaving the blade with no wielder and therefore making her the "predecessor". But yeah, this is just speculation, so... most likely we'll have to wait for a databook. Kyoraku08 (talk) 18:36, March 13, 2014 (UTC)

Member pages missing
despite their names not being known, the three members who appeared alongside the dubious Raiga manga appearance have had their pages deleted, is there any reason why, or are they just going to be counted as incidental characters since its highly unlikely they'll be seen again outside of the anime? Shadowfox337 (talk) 18:20, April 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * More than likely since we don't have a name for them and they don't do much in the panels they are shown, they are just being mentioned on this page until more is revealed on them.Umishiru (talk) 18:25, April 4, 2014 (UTC)

First Gen
So some user claims in the 4th Databook the Generation in Guys flashback is stated to be the first..is that true?--RexGodwin (talk) 01:16, August 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * From what I know, it says "former". • Seelentau 愛 議 01:22, August 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * Then it may have been a mistranslation that I read. The translator said it was mentioned in Jūzō's entry that they were the first generation. Can anyone confirm the same? --Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 01:28, August 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * There's another translation of that character out there aside from mine? :O • Seelentau 愛 議 12:18, August 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes. And it was also done by one of our editors: under "New Names".--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 12:33, August 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * Can't open that link. But I guess you mean FF-Suzaku's translation? Well, the word used there is 元 moto. It can mean both origin and former, but if common is meant, it's usually written in Hiragana. In Biwa's article, the kanji is used. There's also a colon used, so it's written as I translated it: "Moto: Shinobigatana Shichininshu", making it "Former: Seven Ninja Swordsmen". • Seelentau 愛 議 12:44, August 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh, okay. I'll make the necessary reverts.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 13:06, August 4, 2015 (UTC)

Contradiction
If Kushimaru and Jinin died during Jūzo's generation, then they can't possibly be in Zabuza/Mangetsus "strongest" Generation.--AskinNakkLeVaar (talk) 20:38, April 14, 2016 (UTC)


 * Neither can Suikazan, since Zabuza must have joined after Kisame replaced him (unless Kisame was only a member for a couple of days).--BeyondRed (talk) 21:43, April 14, 2016 (UTC)

i dont think we know officially when Zabuza joined him so Fuguki and Zabz can co-exist.--AskinNakkLeVaar (talk) 22:58, April 14, 2016 (UTC)