Talk:What Can Fill a Hole

Earth Wall
So what now? Has every single shinobi on the battlefield, including Shikamaru and so on the Earth Nature? Or don't you need it at all to perform the technique? I am confused...94.135.129.169 (talk) 08:58, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Everyone has all basic natures, this is a common misconception. An individual just needs SKILL to do a given nature, not ability. Apparently everyone was taught how to do it using the telepathy technique--Elveonora (talk) 09:32, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hm, but if everybody has every chakra type, wouldn't that make kekkei genkai kind of....useless? anyway, should we list the earth style in shikamaru's, choji's and Ino's pages? they are seen using the technique after all...94.135.129.169 (talk) 09:59, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * No, what do you mean? Special genes are needed for a kekkei genkai that allows someone to combine a pair of natures and use at once. We are talking about basic natures here, not advanced--Elveonora (talk) 10:12, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

well okay, forget it, this is not about chakra in general...and they are already listed, but not as users of the technique I see94.135.129.169 (talk) 10:20, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't want to see the infobox after everyone's name is there--Elveonora (talk) 10:26, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * I just added the three who were SEEN using it and kitsuchi who taught it to everybody.94.135.129.169 (talk) 10:31, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * We should also list every named Shinobi that's present there, don't you think? This will need to be discussed further, I don't see myself how could we fit it in the infobox--Elveonora (talk) 10:46, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Everyone has all basic natures, this is a common misconception. <= This is a common mistake. No one has all basic natures and to put it bluntly: Yes, Team Asuma has Doton. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to use the Jutsu. This is how it works. Seelentau 愛議 13:14, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * No, it isn't. Everyone's chakra can be changed into any of the five natures, so in theory anyone can use all five, that's what I meant. They just need to know how to and have skill to do so, those who do, yes are Doton users.--Elveonora (talk) 13:33, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * That doesn't mean that everyone has all basic natures at hand. One has a nature when he mastered it and not because he knows the hand seals for a nature technique. No one of Team Asuma ever mastered Doton, so they should not be able to use it. You seem to think that they've Doton because Kitsuchi showed them the seals, but that's wrong. You need years of training to master a nature, with or without affinity, that's why they can not have learned it in that moment. Seelentau 愛議 13:37, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * I know that. Figure earth is their affinity so they are so talented that they managed to execute their first Doton technique right away? Those who are naturally gifted do not need excessive training. Years definitely aren't needed, Sasuke managed to do Katon the moment father showed him hand seals and learned Raiton in less than a month, while training in taijutsu and likely other things as well along with that. My whole point of listing other people is that we don't know if they are or aren't skilled to do Doton--Elveonora (talk) 13:44, May 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * In a normal series of progression, yes, but Kish may be asking us to suspend the logic we already know and accept an exception to the rule. Part of why that might be the case is simply the sheer number of shinobi who are having to use the technique, and it is implied that most are using it. Shikamaru's conversation with Kitsuchi proves to be an interesting one, if we assume many things: Shikamaru is asking for a simple jutsu that anyone outside of Iwagakure can perform, so it has to be simple in terms of the seals as well as the chakra portion. Kitsuchi tries to persuade him otherwise, but Shikamaru vehemently insists that everyone (emphasized) must be able to do it, and rather than quality he wants quantity (so even if it is extremely poor, it doesn't matter). We may also need to take into account he may have helped to describe a bit about the chakra molding to use Doton, which'd make it easier on the "everyone" portion, and matches with the conversation they (Shikamaru and Kitsuchi) had (though at the end Kitsuchi says he'll simply teach the seals, which doesn't match). All-in-all, I think we have to assume given what is going on in those moments, that they're (everyone) learning a Doton technique that is extremely easy to use to ANY degree. The logic of what we know can always change or have exceptions, or even need to be suspended, and we must take into account all of the variables included. I also wouldn't simply assume Team Asuma readily has access to Doton in terms of "Yes, Team Asuma has Doton, otherwise they wouldn't be able to use it" (affinity), though them having it is not false, considering the... nature of the basic natures. One important thing to remember, however is that Shikamaru wanted an "easy/simple earth barricade that EVERYONE can do".--98.101.165.89 (talk) 14:01, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

How about this: We all know that Chakra is molded by forming hand seals. What if only Kitsuchi and the other Doton user used it, while Shikamaru and the others simply merged their Chakra with the Dotonchakra already in the ground? Like Naruto gave his Chakra when Chiyo revived Gaara? Seelentau 愛議 14:05, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Seel, what I meant by nature transformations not requiring any special ability is in theory, anyone can do it. The misconception is that certain people are already born with an elemental chakra that they have at all times and alone can use and later they learn how to switch it. Can you provide a canonical source (not anime) if it's somewhere stated than a Shinobi can't have more than 1 affinity towards them? As unlikely as it is, one could possibly have an affinity for all five and more. What about breeding of physically fit/capable individuals with intellectuals for MANY generations? Wouldn't the resulting offspring be more likely to be both strong and clever, rather than either or even none? There are 40 000 members, I don't see that many walls so the "everyone" part wasn't to be taken literary. Let's say there's 200 walls, users include either those who trained Doton or simply are skilled enough to do it in their first try. There's no proof Team Asuma did that paper thingy at all.

And your explanation isn't needed and doesn't even work, that would mean they all can do chakra transfer or that all Doton users there can absorb chakra... there wouldn't even be a need for them to do hand seals if that were true and Shikamaru would not have commented on its difficulty.--Elveonora (talk) 14:13, May 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, it's not molded by forming the seals, but rather, at least the way I've always understood it, the seals use the chakra that is molded. As for Kitsuchi, Doton users, and the others -- that's not how it happened, however, both in picture form and text/conversation. Shikamaru needed a jutsu that everyone could perform by themselves, regardless of how proficient, and even went out of his way to say those of Iwagakure should still use the best quality they could make, as well, ending up with mixed degrees of walls (which you can see in the panels). But everyone should be taken as literal can it can be (because of Rock Lee because of his inability, and Sakura being preoccupied) because of how much emphasis Shikamaru placed on the word "everyone". I also don't think drawing 40.000 walls is something Kish wanted to do, not to mention the panels were drawn in action, so you wouldn't see every wall, especially considering they're at different levels.  But based on how Kish drew it on the panels where they're making them as they're being destroyed... It gives the impression almost everyone should be doing it (and many being hidden or already destroyed that you can't see on page 17 on mangastream). --98.101.165.89 (talk) 14:22, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * My interpretation is that Yamanaka Clan Telepathy not only can transfer/share information, but also knowledge, meaning not only they learned the hand seals, but it was like if they all were inside of Kitsuchi's head--Elveonora (talk) 14:27, May 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * I re-read the chapter of Naruto's wind training again. It seems like Chakra has one nature, don't know if it has it from birth, but it has. This is called an affinity. The paper reacts to that nature in the Chakra, even though there was no Seishitsuhenka involved. That nature/affinity is easier to learn than the other natures because it's already "pre-made" in the normal chakra. Every other nature is harder to master, since it's not in the normal Chakra of a human.
 * Also, I meant it like this. There's no need for chakra transfer or absorbtion. They simply mold Chakra with the seals and release it into the ground. Seelentau 愛議 14:28, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * But if what you say is true, then wouldn't their chakra natures rewrite the Doton nature? And no, default chakra has NO nature. Affinity simply means talent/skill. The paper doesn't react to elemental chakra, it only shows an affinity of a person, because by your logic, Naruto didn't have to train for Futon because he already could do futon chakra flow into that paper, which isn't true--Elveonora (talk) 14:33, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Not if they create normal Chakra and "add" it to the Doton Chakra.
 * If default Chakra has no nature (aside from YYR, we know not enough to take it into account), then why did the Paper react to the nature at a point when Naruto didn't use Seishitsuhenka? I do not say that he used Seishitsuhenka at that time, but his default Chakra has Fūton properties. Otherwise the paper wouldn't have reacted that way. Seelentau 愛議 14:39, May 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * @Seelentau - That's another way of approaching the same outcome, I would assume. However, it is not the way Kish had Shikamaru, Ino, Kitsuchi, and the others use.
 * @Elv and Seel - I'd be inclined to say Seelentau is close to being correct in that chakra has one nature, in the SLIGHTEST hint of the element in the chakra that is already being naturally (passively) formed in the body (you can read it in the manga or article form here on the wiki). An affinity is not talent or skill, but what the body naturally, passively has an affinity to make for the chakra (going towards Seelentau being partially correct). --98.101.165.89 (talk) 14:47, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * I disagree. They do not have to create normal chakra as chakra is normal at all times unless changed. Again, the paper reacts because it can sense a person's affinity towards a nature, that person doesn't use that nature before he/she learns it though. Chakra by default has no nature and I stand on that. So for example if Lee did that paper thingy, nothing would likely happen. The paper cut in half when Naruto channeled his normal chakra into it and only later he learned how to create elemental chakra and cut things in two. Naruto's chakra has no Futon properties, he has most talent for Futon meaning he was most likely to learn it the most easily, that's what the paper shows. It's kinda like that hat in Harry Potter, whatever it's called.--Elveonora (talk) 15:01, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

If normal Chakra had not the least bit of nature property, there would be no reaction from the paper. This little bit of nature property is called affinity. Thus, there can be only one affinity, since you only have your own Chakra and not two separate Chakras. When a Ninja trains this affinity, he can bring out the property and change his Chakra nature. Since he already had that property, it's easy for him to master it, in contrast to every other nature, which has to be learned and mastered from scratch. Since Lee can not mold Chakra, he can't send it into the paper and thus there would be no reaction, yes. Seelentau 愛議 15:12, May 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * @Elv There's nothing to disagree with -- that's how Kish explained it.
 * Everyone has chakra, and chakra is naturally molded, passively, in the body of everyone (If A, then B logic (or in this case, if B then A)). Everyone's chakra has the tiniest bit of elemental molding to it. It doesn't matter about knowing how to use it or not, the body does it passively on its own from birth -- that is what creates the affinity. If this wasn't the case, the paper would not react as there wouldn't be any nature transformed chakra to react to (again -- if A, then B). And the Sorting Hat in Harry Potter bases it on the person's qualities/characteristics, desires, etc. Harry made the Sorting Hat place him where he ended up. And Lee: if Lee used it, it'd do something, as well. Lee has chakra and it is molded passively. Lee's issue is that he simply cannot use ninjutsu or genjutsu as he has no talent for using them. By following the order of logic in regard to Naruto (the series), if Lee has Chakra (and he does), meaning it is molded (B, then A), and everyone has a natural affinity... blah blah blah. Then yes, the paper would work for Lee just as it did for Naruto for the same reason Seelentau and I have placed before you.
 * P.S. If Lee didn't have chakra... how he water walk with chakra? --98.101.165.89 (talk) 15:26, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Hinata uses a Suiton tecnhique without learning or having affinity with Suiton, she just controll the water that surround her, that been said, this tecnhique that everyone can use, is doton based but it doens't need the affinity with doton, is just molding the earth surrouding them with their chakra. It's a Doton tecnhique maybe D-Rank that doesn't need affinity with doton. Am i right?

I think the same way, they are controlling the earth surroundin them, probably its such a basic technique, that the (affinity) isn't needed. --Dan.Faulkner (talk) 15:44, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

No one ever said that they need an affinity for Doton... Seelentau 愛議 15:48, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Firstly, Anon, please sign your post with ~. Secondly, no, Hinata does not use suiton; she was using Juuken (in the anime filler) to condense nearby water into needles. To actually use water requires one to be able to use Suiton, same for Doton. Doton can be earth or rock, and can do many varying things, whether using existing rock or earth, or creating it with their chakra (the same can happen for Suiton). And no, any Release doesn't require an affinity -- an affinity simply means it is easier to train the respective Release. Anyone can use any basic nature (Doton, Raiton, Fuuton, Suiton, Katon) provided they have trained in it.--98.101.165.89 (talk) 15:50, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

--so is this back to the questions of 1) are they now all able to use Earth affinity, just to varying degrees? 2) this was just a mass attempt at creating the walls to block, just now everyone simply knows the technique, but if anyone with an Earth affinity, they could now create walls? 3) everybody was doing a form of chakra transfer, but only those who could mold the chakra correctly, now had a large pool of chakra to mold into the walls? Deltaslug (talk) 16:18, May 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * 1) Those who can use ninjutsu and were not preoccupied are currently believed to have aided in the building of earth barriers (according to conversation and art/scenes).
 * 2) It was a mass attempt to slow it down, not block it. Shikamaru wanted to slow it down enough so B (in his full form) could knock it in another direction; everyone who was linked to Ino at the time would supposedly know how to use the technique.
 * 3) No one was doing any form of chakra transferring. Everyone (who was involved and able) made their own walls of varying strengths and sizes.--98.101.165.89 (talk) 16:24, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

@Seel and the other guy, the problem is, that you believe chakra affinity is something tangible, something in their chakra/blood... I believe it's in their mind. Can you please provide me the translation of those instances you are basing your interpretation on? I believe I remember the Naruto wind training part well, so perhaps it's not even needed and we interpret the same text differently. Nothing I remember suggests what you are saying.--Elveonora (talk) 16:42, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Ok... So Shikamaru if he wants, he can use, Raiton, Doton, Suiton, Fuuton, Katon? If it is a simple basic technique and he knows the hand seal's? --Dan.Faulkner (talk) 16:44, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * No... unless he has affinities for or trained them but that would make him a prodigy of all prodigies.--Elveonora (talk) 17:31, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

So haw e can perform that doton technique? And why is the technique being posted as Doton: Doryūheki if the seals are different? I am completely lost. --Dan.Faulkner (talk) 17:56, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

As I stated before, if there was not at least a little bit natured Chakra in Naruto's default Chakra when he held the paper, there would've been no reaction. The paper reacts to the affinity a Ninja has, showing it by changing its form. That what we call affinity is a little bit of natured Chakra, be it tangible (in the Chakra or blood) or not (in the mind). Do we agree on this? Seelentau 愛議 17:59, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

@Elv: I've actually argued a lot with you on many topics, lol. You can look at my contributions. I'm just too lazy to sign in my account. Anyways: I'm not going to continue to repeat how Kish wrote it and intended it. Let me just ask you some simple questions... If it's the mind and not chakra, then why is it called Chakra paper, why does it read the chakra of a person, and then does whatever is respective to whatever nature type, which is based on chakra, not the mind? You can easily read ALL of this regarding chakra and more on THIS site without needing to have outside translations. If you want outside translations or the manga references, please do so by yourself so you may refresh your own memory -- it helps to reread the manga from start to finish more than once (I read it at least twice every 6 months, and have compiled many typed notes, observations, etc. Okay, that's a lie... I simply remember it all, I don't type it down). As for an affinity being tangile -- YES! It very much is tangible! At least in the sense that chakra is tangible, and an affinity is a nature transformation that you were born with naturally (which is just another type of chakra). Please read all the pages related to chakra, nature transformation, etc. It'll explain all you need to learn or help remind you of things you forgot.

@Dan: Shikamaru can use any basic element he wants, provided he trains for it -- regardless of an affinity or not (no one needs an affinity). The same goes for everyone else, as well. While many people are now using this technique just recently, it's an isolated event and an exemption to the normal logic we usually follow. As for how he and other perform it in the manga this week... We simply have to accept that some form of information is being passed along, such as seals, etc. The jutsu itself they perform is very basic, and even though they may use it, it's incredibly weak. Outside of this week's chapter, it should be back to the norm where doing something like that is rare, especially on such a large scale (amount of new people). And it is because Doton Doryuuheki is the name of the technique. As for whether or not the seals used in the chapter are different... I don't know, I haven't looked, so I cannot say.--98.101.165.89 (talk) 18:03, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

People, stop changing facts and interpreting them as you deem fit. Look up in dictionary what the word affinity means, no other meaning was given in the series for it, so please...--Elveonora (talk) 18:06, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * I know what an affinity is. But my usage of it doesn't change that I'm right with what I'm saying. Seelentau 愛議 18:07, May 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * No one is changing facts or interpreting things incorrectly, and we're using the word exactly as it is intended for the Narutoverse (English-wise, at least). For someone telling us to look up something, it's awfully funny you cannot look up the "affinity" section in nature transformation. Even if affinity is the incorrect word, and it's not, then any other word can be applied and it doesn't change the facts or what anyone is saying. We can call it Han Solo and it still applies. --98.101.165.89 (talk) 18:16, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's nice and all, but where's the evidence? I'm free to be proven wrong, I believe I'm yet to be. I re-read the article and manga and I still don't see the proof for what you two suggest--Elveonora (talk) 18:33, May 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * If that's the case, I am done discussing it with you as you ignore what is directly put infront of you here, in the manga, and the most relevant article - nature transformation. As much as you want to pompously and obstinately try to argue, as you like to mention "facts" in other Talk pages, the facts here are against you and you ignore direct, logical pieces of information in every source provided for some weird reason.--98.101.165.89 (talk) 18:37, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't ignore it, we just interpret it differently. The only ones with known inherited chakra affinity are Uchihas, no one else and that's because they were practicing it for generations and fireball being their coming of age technique likely for generations. The longer people do something, the better they become at it. Nowhere it's said everyone's chakra has a hint of nature transformation to it even before they master the process, that's only how you excuse the paper test. Actually the very chapter proves you wrong and supports what I'm saying.--Elveonora (talk) 18:57, May 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * Will this sounds a bit harsh, I agree with Anon this time. I told you multiple times why there's to be natured Chakra inside the normal Chakra or blood or mind or whatever. If you still don't understand why I'm sure of that, I can't help you. Seelentau 愛議 18:42, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't sound harsh, there's nothing any of us should be excusing for. We just disagree, that's the point of a conversation, trade of information--Elveonora (talk) 19:00, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Who's going around adding earth nature types to every character in chapter 630? --77.102.73.252 (talk) 22:54, May 15, 2013 (UTC)Reliops

Every character who was linked to telepathically now has access to earth release. Except Naruto, Sakura, have not been shown using it even when on screen so don't add earth release to them. They all used it and it means they all have it. Point blank there should be no further discussion on this obvious add to the characters. 96.241.55.117 (talk) 23:52, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Having had a very busy Wednesday, I was not able to take part in this discussion from the get go, and having only speed-read through it, here is my opinion, and what I understand to have happened. Forgive me if I'm stating the obvious or merely restating what has already been said.
 * Per Kakashi's explanation, everyone's chakra naturally leans towards one type of nature transformation. That, and that particular nature transformation alone is called one's affinity. Using jutsu of one's affinity is easier than a jutsu that is not from it. Everyone can pick any of the five natures to use, and they usually pick the one it's easier to employ. Hand-seals are used to aid in chakra moulding. They make it easier to use techniques. Skilled users can use certain technique with fewer hand-seals, or no hand-seals at all. What Shikamaru asked Kitsuchi for was the simplest, most basic Earth Release barrier technique, most particularly the hand-seals for it. Hand-seals, as explained, make it easier to mould chakra and perform techniques. Shikamaru is aiming for the easiest of the easiest, probably to account the lack of Earth Release training, as well as those whose chakra affinity isn't Earth. For the sake of explanation, let's say this is Earth Release 101, the first Earth Release technique one would learn if they began training Earth Release nature transformation. Shikamaru had Ino pass on that information to everyone in the battlefield. Other than Naruto, who is being healed, Sakura, who is healing him, Lee, who we know can't perform ninjutsu, and Inuzuka ninken (and any other entity), who can't weave hand-seals to perform the technique, I think we should add the Earth Release to every Allied Shinobi who we can reliably place in that battlefield, with the exception of non-Kitsuchi Iwagakure shinobi, who Shikamaru instructed to keep using more advanced Earth Release. Something else I have noticed, is that the technique being listed as the one used by the Alliance is Earth Release: Earth-Style Wall. I must disagree with that. Shikamaru requested Earth Release 101 technique. ESW is a B-ranked technique, hardly something that should be considered the easiest of the easiest. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:28, May 16, 2013 (UTC)

Quote
Maybe we could add what sakura said in this chapter as a quote as well as her finally understanding the reason for naruto's actions. Justin Holland (talk) 18:38, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Kakashi's as well. That one with "those who don't have the decency to....are the worst".Norleon (talk) 18:57, May 15, 2013 (UTC)