Talk:Six Paths of Pain

In Progress
This is still the first stage of this rewrite. I'm going to do individual pages for the bodies, so please don't delete this right away. --Newthx2u (talk) 04:53, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Why are you doing them. We have them at the nagato page. Don't make others neither is it a jutsu. So stop! Cooltamerboy (talk) 06:12, 12 April 2009 (UTC).

I dont know bout any1 else...but i'd wanna see the finished product, before i say take it down..AlienGamer Talk


 * I'm hoping it turns out well myself (hahaha). Theres been alot of discussion for the past week on the Nagato page, and it's a general consensus that separate pages are needed to clean things up. --Newthx2u (talk) 06:22, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

FINISHED!!!
Finally finished the pages, ALL EIGHT OF THEM! i'd appreciate a deal of discussion and agreement before everybody starts fighting over the "undo" option, hahahaha. --Newthx2u (talk) 07:13, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Take it off because their is a special part for them in the nagato article! Cooltamerboy (talk) 07:29, 12 April 2009 (UTC).


 * Cooltamerboy, please don't just butt in with comments like that without looking at the relevant discussions. This page is basically a number of sections that used to be in the Nagato page moved off into their own article. The splitting off like this has been discussed on the Nagato talkpage for awhile. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 12, 2009 @ 09:15 (UTC)

Sorry did not know! Anyway Shoudn't it have it's one arcs? Cooltamerboy (talk) 09:46, 12 April 2009 (UTC).


 * Nah, I think it's better the way it is. Like Dantman said, there's already been a big discussion. --NejiByakugan360 - Please respond on my Talk Page! 01:12, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Summary transclusion
This page should be using the summary transclusion technique. .... should be used on the individual path articles and should be used here to transclude the summary right out of those pages into here. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 12, 2009 @ 09:17 (UTC)
 * Sounds interesting, but i unfortunately have no idea what that means hahahahah. what exactly is a transclusion? --Newthx2u (talk) 13:42, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Rather than writing your own paragraph in each of the Paths' sections, you "transclude" a paragraph from the Paths' main article. For example, in this article you'd replace the entire Deva Path section with just: and you'd replace the lead of the Deva Path's article with:  The, Pain's first observed body, is the body of Yahiko in the Six Paths of Pain. Take a look at Hokage and what is done with the lead section of Hashirama Senju if you're still confused. ~SnapperTo 19:09, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Pointless?
The six paths of pain are separate bodies controlled by ONE Person, so don't you think it is pointless to spin the bodies off into their own article? Despite them having their own personalities when they are alive, they ALL share one consciousness after death: "PAIN". I don't actually agree with this, but that's just my opinion. ZeroGiga (talk) 20:31, 15 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Ya, we know they're all controlled by one will. But this is all based on content. We have enough content to fill up an article on each path. And not only that, but when you consider the Jutsu and all the individual bits of Infobox data, we have enough individual information to even give each path it's own infobox. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 15, 2009 @ 20:49 (UTC)

How pain(nagato) picks his bodies
Now, I've seen exactly how Pain get's his bodies but, does he hand pick which ones he makes use of or will any one do? I mean, does he just say " I'll take that one, that one and that one?" Or does he meticulously go oer what the bodies were capable of in life and picks them based on that knowledge? And that begs another question. How do these bodies have jutsus? For all intents and purposes, they're dead and dead bodies don't have powers, not with out special help. So, how exactly does he do it?CashSeville (talk) 03:00, 17 April 2009 (UTC)CashSeville


 * That kind of stuff has never actually been gone over in the series so we can't say. As for the chakra, Nagato sends them his chakra through the rods. Anything beyond that is speculation and isn't a topic to be discussed here. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 17, 2009 @ 03:45 (UTC)


 * "dead bodies don't have powers" -- wrong. Sasori's human puppets retain all of their abilities. Regardless, it appears that the abilities he uses don't rely on the natural abilities of the bodies at all. All of his summons also have the Rinnegan and piercings, and he can use all of the same summons with two different Animal Paths. The Deva Path uses abilities that the original user of the Rinnegan could use. 66.220.139.43 (talk) 14:00, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

A Small Pain Parody
I'm sure some of you will be offended by the following article (if not it's entire website :D), but I've been intently watching Pain's character and his pages here for some time... and ended up making a small spoof of Narutopedia's page on him:

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Pein

It's not the greatest thing ever, and I wrote it back when Pain first attacked Konoha and we literally knew nothing about his history, but I hope someone here gets a kick out of it. Please excuse all its lies and look at it as my strange way of showing fanboyism for Pain. :P

EDIT-- In case you wonder why I bring up crackers so much, it's from this manga page:

http://www.narutocentral.com/manga.php?s=naruto&c=372&p=7

ShadowfaxSTF (talk) 21:21, 24 April 2009 (UTC) kekkai genkai??? since when has six paths of pain been called as such???

Former
Souldnt we say this is former since they are all dead?

outer path
what about nagato as one of the 7 paths of pain?
 * took care of that just a second ago.--Newthx2u (talk) 03:53, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Why he may or may not be the path.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 04:12, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * konan explicitly states that the "master of the rinnegan" is the 7th pain. that's nagato. it's fairly explicit in its explanation.
 * And SleepFan, the group you got this from, means absolutely nothing to me. The actual Japanese text goes as followed

which in the grand scope of things is vague enough to either be talking about Nagato, or his jutsu.--04:30, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * so you're basically reverting this to your oppinion over his?--Newthx2u (talk) 04:34, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

No I'm reverting to keep up a compromise. I can't tell which one she is talking about, nor can the translator who translated this. Because of that this middle ground was used.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 04:37, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * so sleepyfans saying he's talking about nagato + random above translation remaining neutral + you saying it's the jutsu = do what you want? so help me god i gave this 6 paths page life months ago and i will take it away if need be!--Newthx2u (talk) 04:40, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Newthx2u dont even bother yourself trying to deal with these guys. it's a futile effort and a massive pain in a bodypart of your choosing. you'll just need to wait until his view no longer holds any sway (never gonna happen).I"ll now return to my exile.  --NurXang (talk) 04:45, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * For a guy in self imoosed exile, you always seem to show up at these moments. Reminds me of someone. /shrug If I didn't know any better I'd say you were following me.
 * Anyway, yes. That's how it works. Because the vast majority of us don't read Japanese, so we put our trust in SleepyFan. However, they are not always right. They have seen fit to change how certain things are said so they made more sense. This is one of those cases. The actual Japanese is vague enough to be interpenetrated a number of ways. Which is why the middle ground is used. (I would also like to toot ShounenSuki's horn in saying he has translated quite a few databooks. Random translator, he is not.)--TheUltimate3 (talk) 04:50, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ultimate3 you jackass we meet again! i'd bet you're tooting his horn! the reason i've come out of the shadows like this is b/c pompous asses like you never cease to get in the way of honest editors like Newthx2u and what i used to love doing.
 * Translations are vague. it's their very nature to not make sense one way or another. your opinion has as much sway as anybody elses in this festering hole i used to enjoy so much, and it's not your decision (never was, actually). Sleepyfans' translation may take artistic license if necessary, but it's good enough for 90% of the online manga sites so it should be good enough here.
 * But i digress...
 * the point of the matter at hand is that some minor translation differences that you beleive exist don't merit your opinion having sway over those unlike you and me who think we are important in this place (or at least i thought i was before your jackassery took place all those months ago).
 * I've said about all i need to say at this point. good luck Newthx2u.--NurXang (talk) 05:04, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The hilarious part is I didn't even make it past the first 3 words. Try again to be more clear without being well a jackass as you said.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 05:12, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll do my best, crazy person that i'm afraid to agree with!
 * As for the overall translation, it seems vague if you look at the lines, but taken in context it does actually say that Nagato is the 7th pain. in the first line of that translation you fished up it says "they...exist outside the world where life and death exist" and then goes on to say "nagato's eye power...rules over life and death: the 7th pain." that seems to be fairly explicit even using the info you saw fit to provide.it never mentions the king of hell ruling over life and death, only the rinnegan.
 * plus, seeing as how this is referred to as a "path" it should bear the traditional markings of a path: piercings, rinnegan eyes, and a "path" name. nagato has all those. --Newthx2u (talk) 05:15, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

"First 3 words"? in a shocking turn of events i'll actually ask you to explain what the hell you mean. surely that second sentence wasn't a comeback. if it was, then you've lost that arrogant bite that i remember you having back in the good old days. hell i might just have to stick around for this to watch you thrash around!--NurXang (talk) 05:20, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * @Newthx2u:::::::They were also all corpses, all of which Naruto wasn't until recently. Anyway this is where the problem comes in. That is how you and I both looked at it. However, his Rinnegan ruling over the seventh Pain, the one of life and death and then suddenly the King of Hell showing up could be the Pain of life and death. That's why its vague. That's why the middle ground was used.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 05:24, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * @NurXang:/nod /nod Yeah. Ok. Go back to your little exile now, you obviously aren't contributing to the issue.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 05:24, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

That's an exceptionally sly way of not needing to answer anything i said earlier. If youll look in my monologue from before youll see that i actualy posed questions quite pertinent o the discussion. Oh, and it was a self imposed leave from this hole, which means that you dont get to tell me when to leave. As i said earlier, i'll be seeing this discussion through to the end or at least until you see what that other guy and i are trying to get across.--NurXang (talk) 15:27, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

In both translations konan states that the 7th pain, master of the rinnegan, can use the other techniques of the other 6 paths. afew chapters ago we saw nagato use shinra tensei that only deva path can use, and now we see him summon the king of hell that only Naraka path has used. my bet is that king of hell is the only summon that can use Outer path's revival technique, but is still not the path itself. just think about it for a second: which is more likely to be the 7th, "outer path" of pain? a summon that already has a name, bears no similarity to the other paths in any way, and was already shown as a weapon of another path, or the physical controller of the other paths which has a great physical likeness to them, performs jutsu that deal with life and death, and actually peforms two which have the word "gedo" in the name? I think i've made my point. --Newthx2u (talk) 15:41, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * If you read my translation carefully, you'll see that Konan is calling Nagato's technique the seventh Pain. Not Nagato himself. --ShounenSuki (talk 15:45, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * And the cycle begins again.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 15:49, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * shounensuki all that supports that claim is the form of the pronoun in the first word of the second sentence of your translation "they". in every language referential pronouns can have multiple meanings. it could either mean, as you see it "they" referencing the techniques, or, as i and sleepyfans saw it, "he" referencing "the person who wields the rinnegan". given what happens in the following images, i think it stands to show which one was being referenced.
 * U3 people disagreeing with you and using evidence as support doesnt count as a cycle. it's actually called progress. --Newthx2u (talk) 15:53, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The cycle I was referring to was the arguement, not if people agreed with me or not. I already stated, you and me had/have a similar interpretation of the text. It can however be taken another way. The arguement is going through the exact same thing it had before. And it's "TU3" or "TheUlitmate3". Gotta say the whole thing or it doesn't work >.>--TheUltimate3 (talk) 15:56, 31 May 2009 (UTC)
 * @Newthx2u: Actually, you're wrong. First of all, the first two sentences refer to "the person who wields the Rinnegan". "They," which isn't actually in the original Japanese, also refers to the Rinnegan wielder.
 * The important sentence here is the last one. The one talking about the seventh Pain. "Nagato's eye power is a technique that rules over life and death; the seventh Pain...". It clearly refers to Nagato's technique as the seventh Pain and not to Nagato himself. --ShounenSuki (talk 16:06, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Ok, it looks like a little mediation is needed here. Frankly I'm not even sure how this discussion spiraled away like this.

TheUltimate3 cited a relevant discussion which was conducted very civilly. After another comment he fully cited the translation ShounenSuki made and summed up what the outcome of the discussion was. Why this was taken as "[his] opinion" and "do what [he] want[s]?" I can not understand, cause when one reads the other discussion they'll see that TU3's opinion was "Nagato=Outer Path" and the discussion's compromise was "either nagato or jutsu" which he reiterated.

A little reminder. The wiki's policy has been to discount translations made by scanalation groups and fansubs. This has been the case for a long time, and no-one has come out and made any big community objection. Fan translations are loose, and in some cases outright incorrect, the groups don't pay enough attention to subtleties and you can't derive meanings from subtle phrases in their translation because there's a good chance that the meaning in the translation might not have even been in the original text. On the other hand, ShounenSuki knows Japanese, and he's been kind enough to help out by translating the text. As a translator for the wiki rather than someone trying to loosely translate an entire manga so people can read it, ShounenSuki does what he can to translate text as precisely as he can and explain any ambiguities in the text. Something to remember here is when we take Japanese -> English subtle meanings cannot be taken from the resulting English, no matter how good the translation, simply because there are differences in languages and there is no guarantee the meanings were even present in the original Japanese. ShounenSuki is the one person here basing his arguments on the original Japanese text, the rest of our arguments come not from subtleties in the Japanese but from subtleties in the English he's done what he can to translate for us so we can understand. ShounenSuki is still kind enough to state his arguments in English so we can read them.

Now for NurXang, please keep your comments civil and stick directly to discussion on the topic. If your contribution to this discussion is going to primarily consist of personal attacks, dissuading editors from trying to participate in the discussion, and off-topic throws between you and TheUltimate3 then sticking around in this discussion isn't going to be permitted.

For TheUltimate3, from now on if NurXang makes any further incivil comments please ignore them completely and move on to another part of the discussion. Responding to them just feeds the incivility of the discussion.

A quick postamble, any comment which is combined with incivility or personal attacks may be ignored completely, if you're going to take part in a discussion please do it civilly, or your comments may not even be considered. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) May 31, 2009 @ 18:57 (UTC)

no shared vision
The concept of shared vision was valid when we knew nothing about the 6 paths, when we treated them as six separate entities with a hive mind. But now it's clearly known that Nagato was seeing through their eyes, so "shared vision" is no longer valid in my opinion. We should change it to "Nagato can see six separate fields of view at once". I've already made the change but some wise guy changed it back. Xfing (talk) 09:54, 1 August 2009 (UTC)


 * That does not change the fact that the Paths all had a shared vision. Hell the only thing that could be changed is to add Nagato's actual body to the shared vision list. Because Nagato spent the entire fight in a paper tree. Each body saw one thing, which obviously went back to Nagato, which then went back to all the paths. Thus, shared vision.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 10:07, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

The only problem I see here is that taking the thing this way implies that each Path is an individuality. Well, when he uses them, the paths ARE Nagato. Without him they are just motionless corpses. It's him who sees everything, without his chakra the paths lay dead as the corpses they are. It's only Nagato who sees through the eyes of these corpses.Xfing (talk) 10:11, 1 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Aye, it is him who sees everything. However, the entire invasion, he was in a tree. HE couldn't see anything. His Paths however could. Then as I said, it's that jumbled mess of sending its vision to Nagato and back to the other paths. Hence, again a collective shared vision.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 10:16, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok, agreed. With the exception of "sending the vision back to the other paths". Think about it for a while, since all six of the paths send their vision to Nagato, he can already see all six fields of vision anyway. For example if someone attacks Preta from behind and Human was seeing it, Preta will dodge, but not because Preta can see it too, but because Nagato can see it through the eyes of Human. Preta doesn't need to see it, because Nagato already sees the attack, and can make Preta move. Xfing (talk) 10:22, 1 August 2009 (UTC)


 * All the Paths share Nagato's vision, thus what one sees the others see. In a constant loop. Using your example, if the Preta Path got attacked from behind and the Animal Path saw it, the Preta Path also saw it because the Animal Path saw it, and because the Animal Path saw it, Nagato saw it, which means every path saw it.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 10:25, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Ok whatever, guess there's no convincing you. But just assuming it's Nagato that does all the seeing wouldn't change the functionality of the six paths in the slightest. It would still work the same. Xfing (talk) 10:37, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. Which is why this was basically going back and forth for no reason. In the end, nothing actually changed. Not because either of us was right or wrong, but because we both basically said the same thing using different or more words.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 10:42, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Rinnegan
Is this technique related to the Rinnegan?