Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-26958911-20151010214426/@comment-26773508-20151018140354

Trappedinmygenjutsu wrote: @ BakumatsuWarrior Jiraiya's speed is indeed faster than part 1 Kakashi but so was Itachi's, who was able to also speed blitz Sasuke in his final fight. Itachi's movements have also been very difficult for even sharingan wielders to keep up with, which is another thought to keep in consideration. Well the entire reason I mentioned Jiraiya's speed with respect to Part 1 Kakashi was to highlight that Jiraiya would in all likeliness be able to keep up with Itachi. Part 1 Kakashi was too slow for Itachi as he couldn't even notice Itachi weaving hand signs for his suiton jutsu. And our entire discussion lately has been around Jiraiya dodging the Totsuka Blade. So I pointed out that one of the legendary Sanin had to be faster than P1 Kakashi to earn that title, since Jiraiya's strength alone wouldn't be enough to sustain such a legendary reputation if he also wasn't sufficiently quick. Anyaway, let's leave Part 1 Kakashi be.

I am not too sure how much intel Jiraiya would have about Susanoo. Your thesis seems plausible, but then someone like Orochimaru would surely have to have known about the Susanoo as well (since he was in closer contact with Danzo, and Orochimaru having extensive research about the Uchiha), and he did not fair to well. If Orochimaru and Kabuto had enough intel to hypothesize that a sharingan could evolve into a Rinnegan, then it's almost certain he knew about Susanoo. Heck, Oro even knew about the Uzumaki's secret Hanya mask that could summon the Shinigami. And he gathered that intel a mere 3 years after first seeing the Shinigami face-to-face (when Hiruzen used the Death Reaper Seal on him). So it's quite certain Oro knew about Susanoo. Too bad a simple sharingan genjutsu took him out.

And it is at this point that some discrepancies about the relative strengths of the 3 Sanin appear. Jiraiya could go toe to toe with Pein, and by Pein's own admission Jiraiya would have defeated him had he known about the Six Paths of Pain. So that's quite an impressive feat of strength.

On the other hand, Jiraiya got fucked big time by a Kyuubi-cloaked Naruto with just four tails. And this isn't even 4-tailed Naruto in his pseudo-Kyuubi form. It's Naruto in his four-tailed cloak form, which is a lower form.

And yet Orochimaru can tank in all the damage that a 4-tailed pseudo-Kyuubi can inflict on him, with him just using a host body!! That is really inconsistent, given the fact that during Oro's time in Akatsuki, it was the threat of Pein's power that kept him in check. Oro was not considered in the same league as Pein or Itachi. Yet Jiraiya showed that he was in the same league with actual feats. But this feat negates the earlier feat of Orochimaru tanking a rampaging Naruto's powerful blows, which Jiraiya couldn't.

We must also consider the fact that Orochimaru was far more versatile than Jiraiya when it came to ninjutsu and genjutsu. Yet nowhere in the manga is it even hinted that Orochimaru was in the same league as Itachi or Pein. It was only after he acquired Hashi cells through White Zetsu that he started looking a bit more formidable (especially during the time when he froze an almost-full-powered Edo Tobirama, who had earlier scared the shit out of Oro & co. with just a raise of his fingers).

So it's really difficult to conclude the weakness of one Sanin by comparing it with those of the other Sanin. Although Oro getting taken out with a simple sharingan genjutsu seems to strengthen the case against Jiraiya in favour of Itachi, since Jiraiya wasn't that good with genjutsus. Yet if Jiraiya could be taken out with a simple sharingan genjutsu (even if the caster is none other than Uchiha Itachi), then what's the point of calling him as one of the "legendary" Sanin?