Forum:Banbutsu Souzou mistaken for the sage's version of Izanagi;

There has been an interpretation mistake ever since the proper translation of Naruto 510's "Shocking Forbidden Jutsu". The proper translation says, Quote: "the Izanagi technique was Originally a practical application of the Sage of Six Path's Creation of All Things". Which explains that Rikudou Sennin used Izanagi as the practical application of Banbutsu Souzou "creation of all things", which means Banbutsu Souzou itself was Impractical and inapplicable. So, Banbutsu Souzou could not of possibly created the bijuu, without the ability to be practical(Capable of or suitable to being used or put into effect; useful:) or applicable(capable of being applied; having relevance) when it comes to using ninjutsu or genjutsu.

So if the sage, who uses ninjutsu and genjutsu, could not apply or make "creation of all things" practical. Then how was it able to be used or applied to create the bijuu if its not useful or applicable? The whole reason the Sage probably created Izanagi from banbutsu souzou is because its a jutsu with no real world application or practicality. Thus why Izanagi is the topic of the chapter "Shocking forbidden technique", mentioned four separate times as well as creation, while banbutsu Souzou was merely mentioned one time, vaguely.

I understand how the translation could be misinterpreted. Japanese is a pain in the butt. However, the jutsu Tobi was describing to Konan was in fact Izanagi, but the sage's version. This is confirmed by tobi's "let me tell you a little about MY JUTSU and myself", which is Izanagi, not banbutsu Souzou, along with his attainment of Hashirama;s abilities by taking his cells. As well as the explanation of danzou's Izanagi as "incomplete due to inability to control Hashirama's power". Which is why the incomplete Izanagi can take reality (such as a real attack) and turn it into an illusion or dream (making the real attack into merely an illusion which is why danzou was not harmed). While Tobi describes the Sage's Izanagi as the power to bring Imagination to life. which is opposite of what the incomplete Izanagi used by danzou that makes something real into an illusion. Not Vica versa.

You do not have to take my word for it. Reread the chapter 510 and see for yourself. IMO, Izanagi is the jutsu Tobi is explaining the history of, how it works and what it has done. Not banbutsu Souzou due to its impracticability as well as being inapplicable for ninjutsu or genjutsu, which the sage used.

My best analogy to describe a similar situation is through "that jutsu". Naruto has a jutsu called "that jutsu" his father created. But, It is an impractical and inapplicable version of the jutsu naruto will make from it we will just call "Flying Kyuubi sage jutsu". Just as the sage created a jutsu called banbutsu souzou. But, because of its impracticability and being inapplicable. The sage created a whole new jutsu from it that was a practical and applicable version called Izanagi.

Its not that great, but it explains what I am trying to say.

(Things that show Tobi is explaining Izanagi, not banbutsu Souzou)


 * Izanagi's the jutsu tobi used right before explaining it to konan. It was her lack of knowledge and confusion as to how Tobi could have did what he did that was the premise for the explanation of Izanagi in the first place.


 * Izanagi is Mentioned four times within two and a half pages while banbutsu souzou is mentioned merely once.


 * Tobi starts his explanation with "Izanagi, the power to connect illusion to reality" and ended with "the power to bring Imagination to life, that is IZANAGI".


 * The jutsu used to create the bijuu and many other things comes from the power of Uchiha and senju combined as one. The same power it takes to use Izanagi, but one has to be able to control both powers unlike danzou who could not control the senju power.


 * The Yin/yang nature elements were explained as Yin being based on the application of IMAGINATION and spirit energy to create shape and form from nothingness. With Yang being the Application of life force and physical energy to BRING THE FORM AND SHAPE TO LIFE. Which is exactly the same explanation of what the sage's Izanagi does. It Brings IMAGINATION to LIFE. Imagination is whats applied as YIN for the creation of form from nothing while "bringing to LIFE" is what the Yang element does through the use of life force and physical energy.


 * Danzou's Izanagi is confirmed as a incomplete version which is why it is so limited. So the Actual Izanagi, which was used by the sage Originally, is far more powerful and capable with the ability to bring imagination to life, rather then the incomplete self defense version used to merely cheat death.


 * With the "creation of all things" not being practical or applicable. And the sagew of six paths being a ninjutsu and genjutsu user. "creation of all things" could not of possibly created anything with no ability to be practical or applicable as ninjutsu or genjutsu.

Conclusion:I know there will be skepticism, but just reread the chapter for yourself and take into consideration what I have presented here. Approach it with no real preference for either Izanagi or banbutsu souzou as the jutsu being described to try and eliminate bias for one over the other. read the chapter and make your own conclusion based on observation, comparison and consistency to make your own conclusion as opposed to just letting the preconceived notion that banbutsu souzou is what everyone believes is the topic of explanation so it must be true.

We've had those panels where Tpbi talks about it translated by someone who knows Japanese, it's correct as is. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:49, July 16, 2012 (UTC)

You are overthinking it too much. The difference between Creation of All Things and Izangi is: Simply the former being used to create things, the latter to control existence.--Elveonora (talk) 23:31, July 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * The former = creation of form through imagination and breathing life into it (simply God hax no jutsu)
 * Izanagi = turning reality into illusion and illusion into reality

I also can translate pretty good myself. And the statement on page 11, chapter 510 about Izanagi and banbutsu souzou is something anyone with a translating app could translate lol. Simply finding consistent translations to determine the proper usage of a kanjii or word is the best way to go if you have no Japanese translating skills at all.

Anyways, I am not really over thinking it IMO, but I believe the topic has not been looked into and given the proper method to determine the correct context of the said statement we are discussing. All I was trying to point out above everything else is that if Izanagi was a Practical application of this Banbutsu souzou, then clearly this banbutsu souzou could not of possibly created the bijuu much less anything else besides being the foundation for becoming Izanagi due to its inability to be practical and applicable which is a requirement to be a ninjutsu or genjutsu. Which are all techniques that are practical as well as applicable.

And The manga explains the difference as Izanagi is something the sage used as a practical application of something called banbutsu souzou... Something the chapter mentioned once, vaguely. Meanwhile the entire chapter is about IZANAGI, not banbutsu souzou. Izanagi is mentioned four times to Banbutsu's 1. That alone should have been a warning flag when the idea that banbutsu souzou was thought to be the jutsu tobi was explaining as the creation jutsu that created many things including the bijuu from the ten tails chakra.

IMO, The reason people thought banbusto souzou was the jutsu that created the bijuu and many other things is because it was thought that Izanagi was just a forbidden jutsu of the uchiha that turns reality into an illusion... Yet Tobi clearly explains that Izanagi is actually a jutsu Originally used by the sage as a practical application for some random thing called "creation all things". Izanagi is the power of the senju and uchiha. Izanagi is the power to turn imagination into reality through the use of Yin and Yang AKA Uchiha and senju's powers which is what it takes to use Izanagi in the first place. The incomplete version of Izanagi used by danzou is not Izanagi, but a cheap imitation due to an inability to control hashirama's power.

Without a single panel to even explain what banbutsu souzou "creation of all things" is, other then something Impractical and inapplicable thus impossible to use for ninjutsu or genjutsu with these two qualities. Izanagi needs to get credit for the creation of the bijuu and many things as the manga states itself.

Thank you. Good day...

Izanagi affects only one's own state of reality.--Elveonora (talk) 22:00, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

You're the only person I've ever seen to claim that translation. All translators in all forums I visit say the same as we do. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:03, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

Not to mention we are yet to see Tobi "create" something with Izangi ;) As I said, Izangi = turning illusion into reality and reality into illusion. Banbutsu Souzou = turning thoughts into a solid form and breathing life into it.

It's a COMPLETELY different application but similar principle of Yin-Yang release. So6p wasn't a Izanagi user, the technique was developed later by Uchiha ... not to mention Izanagi eats away a Sharingan's light, while Banbutsu Souzou is usable with Rinnegan.--Elveonora (talk) 22:09, July 18, 2012 (UTC)