Talk:Kaguya Ōtsutsuki

Uzumaki Clan
It isnt confirmed Hagoromo Otsutsuki' 05:40, June 20, 2014 (UTC)HagoromoOtsutsuki
 * No. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 12:17, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

On Hagoromo becoming stronger than Kaguya
Those that say otherwise, please explain why this shouldn't be put inside the Trivia section: Though Hagoromo did admit that Kaguya was stronger than him, since he did defeat Kaguya/Shinju twice (Sealing them inside him with help from his brother then sealing them inside the moon) means that he technically became stronger than Kaguya and he gained 3 godly chakra sources (his, Kaguya's, and the Shinju).

I think this because when you defeat someone in battle, even if it's just for 1 battle, you're stronger than them.

If people disagree with this, please explain why. --Mike 05:54, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

Manga fact....hagoromo admitted his mother was stronger Hagoromo Otsutsuki' 06:00, June 20, 2014 (UTC)HagoromoOtsutsuki

I know that, however, he said that she "was" stronger. That is, past tense. Defeating your enemy means that your stronger. Even before Kaguya was introduced, it was stated that he became to be revered as a god for defeating another god, the Shinju. In turn, I think that dictates that he became a stronger god than the goddess that his mom was. --Mike 06:05, June 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hagoromo also "was" alive. Atrix471 (talk) 16:28, June 29, 2014 (UTC)

Xundoshi dont edit others comments regardless of grammar also hagoromo stated his mother was far stronger then him.Hagoromo Otsutsuki' 06:18, June 20, 2014 (UTC)HagoromoOtsutsuki

I'm trying to edit only my comments. --Mike 06:25, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

Huh? Hagoromo Otsutsuki' 06:31, June 20, 2014 (UTC)HagoromoOtsutsuki

I wasn't trying to edit other people's comments. I was only trying edit my own comments (shorten sentences, changing the words). --Mike 06:35, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

MY bad i didnt know you was Xundoshi Hagoromo Otsutsuki' 06:42, June 20, 2014 (UTC)HagoromoOtsutsuki

I'm putting my name as Mike because I find it easier to put for my signature (it's also because Michael is my real name). --Mike 06:45, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

Just because Hagoromo beat Kaguya doesn't mean he's stronger; it's not always the stronger person that wins a fight. Naruto beat Kabuto when he was way weaker than Kabuto. If it was Dragonball Z, then you could say that, but in this series factors of victory are varied, ranging from luck, timing, carelessness, being stronger, being more prepared, being a bad match up... the factors go on and on. Among the many Kage level shinobi, we can't truely say who is stronger cause some are more suited for fighting some more than others..... it's like rock paper scissors. With so many factors involved, we can't truly say who is stronger. Victory doesn't automatically mean your better. The better person doesn't always win.--Deathmailrock (talk) 23:20, June 23, 2014 (UTC)

Rectifying the Kaguya-Shinju Contradiction
How can Kaguya be the "Progenitor of chakra" if the Shinju is the "Origin of all chakra", as stated in their articles? By no means am I trying to be difficult but maybe it should be mentioned that Kaguya is the progenitor, or foremother, of all chakra that dwells within humans/human chakra. And the shinju is the originator of everything else that consists of chakra, e.g. animals like the toad and snake sages. Cause I doubt they got their chakra passed down from Kaguya as well. In short, I can see visitors of the wiki getting confused when they glance past their articles.--The Zeitgeist (talk) 23:52, June 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Chapter 681 was confusing, and we're waiting for the raws for clarification, since there are so many discrepancies between the scanlations. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:19, June 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * "Rectifying the Kaguya-Shinju Contradiction" That sounds painful. Unless you're into that sort of stuff. You know what I mean. Biddy-biddy-biddy-biddy-biddy. --Silver-Haired Seireitou (talk) 01:57, June 21, 2014 (UTC)

Sharingan/Rinnegan info.
"Kaguya >manifested an incarnation of the Shinju< that would become known as the Ten-Tails, intent on reclaiming the chakra she felt was rightfully hers."

"Sharingan and Rinnegan Kaguya wields her Rinnegan and Sharingan together as a third eye on her forehead in the >form of the Shinju's eye.<" - Now, on her page is says she created the Shinju.. So doesn't that mean that the Shinju has HER eye? Not the other way around? SusanooUnleashed (talk) 05:15, June 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Kaguya manifested the beast form (Ten-Tails), not the Shinju itself. We don't have the details yet, so we don't know who had the red Rinnegan/Sharingan eye first.--BeyondRed (talk) 06:21, June 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * So much speculation in the article...--Elveonora (talk) 11:37, June 21, 2014 (UTC)

My thoughts exactly, Elve. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 11:41, June 21, 2014 (UTC)

At this point, it isn't clear if the Shinju even had any eye to begin with. When Obito summoned a copy of it, it had the eye, but that was post-Kaguya merger. There isn't any indication that it had any eye before Kaguya ate its fruit or whatever did to it. Also Kaguya doesn't wield both Sharingan and Rinnegan as the third eye, the third eye is called just a Rinnegan.--Elveonora (talk) 12:39, June 21, 2014 (UTC)

Kinkaku and Ginkaku
I noticed its no longer mentioned that the Gold and Silver Brothers are possibly her descendants. I feel it should be re-listed, i mean the family resemblance is rather obvious. Shadowfox337 (talk) 11:18, June 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * They were never said to be her descendants, but possibly the Sage's. Logic would dictate that they are her's as well; but that is not something we should mention in the article despite how "obvious" it is.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 12:45, June 21, 2014 (UTC)

Technique List
Can somebody add Dimensional Shifting to the infobox? I have no idea how to do this, if I even can. Atrix471 (talk) 10:00, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

Yin-Yang release?
Considering she tanked an Amaterasu. Not sure if that can simply be attributed to chakra absorption since Obito did the very same thing--Elveonora (talk) 19:26, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well it's either that or the Preta path, but I'm not even sure if the third eye allows her to use the six paths. It could also be that she's just really, really durable and the whole 'only sage techniques work against Ten-Tails jinchūriki' thing. Atrix471 (talk) 19:34, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

Bump--Elveonora (talk) 14:23, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Being able to tank and absorb Amaterasu isn't necessarily indicative of Yin-Yang Release. If memory serves me well, when Obito did it didn't he also use the Truth-Seeking Balls? As far as I could gather, all she had done so far was tank stuff, but I'm no sure thats indicative of her absorbing it (which she could via Preta Path) or no-selling it (via Yin-Yang Releasing it).
 * Basically, I'm confused because I can't remember if she's absorbing stuff or just tanking it.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:33, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Considering Amaterasu is inextinguishable and is supposed to burn for days, she made it vanish. The reason why I think Amaterasu can't be absorbed is because when Nagato was set aflame with Amaterasu, he got rid of it using Deva Path instead of Preta Path--Elveonora (talk) 14:37, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * /shrug. She is no Nagato. But as I stated, no idea.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:50, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Black Zetsu literally said she absorbed it though. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 15:01, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

Jinchūriki
So, this kinda needs to be dealt with. If the Ten-Tails is part Kaguya, part Shinju, is she really a jinchūriki? Cause is kinda hard to be a jinchūriki of something that is part... you. ._. Let me be very clear, because I know the factions that will jump in, this is not to be turned into an argument to merge Kaguya with the Ten-Tails. That isn't happening. But I find it hard to believe she could be a jinchūriki of something she is part of. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 23:38, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Probably not. Then again, Probably so, considering her body right now isn't technically her body but Madara's body covered in Black Zetsu + massive amounts of chakra and somehow bewbs. She is very confusing. But I'd go with "she's not a jinchuriki because the Ten-Tails is part her" camp.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 23:47, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * She isn't a jinchuuriki because she is a Tailed Beast guys. Also no offense, but your behavior is kinda schizophrenic to me. Ten-Tails is her beast form, having it split is letter by letter, crazy. We don't have a separate article for Orochimaru's snake form, do we?--Elveonora (talk) 23:58, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * I just told you not to turn this into that argument. There is no merger. You were overwhelmingly disagreed with. It's not happening. So either weigh in on the subject matter, or not at all. Stay on topic. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 00:00, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Just because I was disagreed with by the trinity doesn't mean I'm wrong. Being a sysop doesn't make you always right, sorry to break your bubble. And I already weighted in, I propose removal of jinchuuriki status. For the merger, If the sole reason it isn't happening is because there's "sysop" behind your username, then gimme a sec, I'm gonna edit a shot of my profile with "sysop" added there so I'm taken more seriously and my argument is more valid, because that's exactly how it works here.--Elveonora (talk) 00:06, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wrong again. Of the six people that told you "no", three were sysops. Its not happening. Get over it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 00:09, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Enough both of you. While there will be no merger, that is not the point of this discussion. I am more than willing to remove the jinchuriki part. I think. Like I said the only thing that bothers me the whole "her body is technically Madara's" thing. But eh, details and nobody else is really thinking that.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk)

I don't think there's anything of Madara left at this point. Back then during the Pain arc, Naruto was transforming into Kurama, had it happened, Naruto would have ceased to exist, right? I don't see how is it any different. Madara was overwhelmed by Kaguya--Elveonora (talk) 00:17, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Madara seems to be gone completely by this point. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 00:19, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

So Madara moves from "Presumed Deceased" to "Deceased?" K. By the way I have a question. The tree seen in chapter 670. Wasn't that the Shinju before Kaguya merged with it (The mural that appeared when Madara was talking to Hashirama seems to support this)? Oh and by the way... she isn't a jinchuuriki. It makes no sense at this point. Hagoromo sealed her within himself. Back to my question, what do you think about that tree? WindStar7125  (Talk) 01:01, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, the tree is Shinju, why do you question that?--Elveonora (talk) 12:04, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

Then why isn't it in the infobox? WindStar7125  (Talk) 16:05, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * You mean the image? No idea, people are all ignorant about this. The Ten-Tails is yet to be separated from the Shinju article, but I don't care, not my credibility at stake. People who read the manga properly know what is true and need no wiki to tell them their version of it--Elveonora (talk) 16:07, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

It's really, really hard to wait for the raws, hm? • Seelentau 愛 議 16:47, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * We don't? I thought we already had them.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:56, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Nope, 481 and 482 aren't out yet... • Seelentau 愛 議 17:20, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * The latest raw I could find is from 676--Elveonora (talk) 17:25, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh, I meant 681 and 682, lol. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:28, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

Glad that's cleared up. By the way the tree in this image  is what I'm talking about. I'm thinking that was the Shinju before Kaguya interfered. I'm thinking that image should be in the infobox. The tree in this mural  seems to support this as well. WindStar7125  (Talk) 17:33, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * I know and it indeed is, meaning the thin version that Obito spawned wasn't the original Shinju form, but a Shinju replica created from the Ten-Tails--Elveonora (talk) 17:35, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

Well, that was known as Obito's Tailed Beast Mode in the Jinchuuriki Forms article, and going off of what the article said, Tailed Beast Mode is a replica of the actual Tailed Beast. So yes, I agree with you. WindStar7125  (Talk) 17:38, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * The Shinju isn't even a Tailed Beast, the Ten-Tails is--Elveonora (talk) 17:52, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

So this is what I think. The links I just posted was the tree, pre-Kaguya. This picture File:Ten Tails blossom.png, which is what this wiki has in the Shinju infobox deemed the "Original Form" was the tree, post-Kaguya, when she fused with it. Then the tree became its "Beast Form"  and attacked Hagoromo and Hamura. @Elve do you agree? Plus, are there any objections? WindStar7125  (Talk) 18:02, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * So here's a fun history lesson. Technically the Ten-Tails isn't either. I have gone on record stating that we classified the Ten-Tails wrong because well, it was simple and not so much of a stretch. When it was first revealed, the Ten-Tails should have been classified as something along the lines of "Demon". However, it was easier to incorporate it at the end of the tailed beast list. So yeah. That happened.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:06, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * And to go off again, the yeah the picture of the tree being called a Tailed Beast Mode was once again, done simply to make life easier, this time directly by yours truly. Considering that Obito was the Ten-Tails, while separate from his body, as the jinchuriki the tree was an extension of his body and that was how tailed beast mode worked at all, I named the picture such to save time. So yeah. Another history lesson.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:09, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * I know, TBs are only 9 and are Hagoromo's creation, but well, the Ten-Tails is the "progenitor" of TBs. It has traits of one, like Tailed Beast Ball etc. so the classification is neither correct nor incorrect I guess. And the tree Obito spawned was indeed some weird sort of Tailed Beast Mode, but that's not what the topic is about. We shouldn't use the Obito's version as infobox image for the Shinju, but rather how it looked originally with the fruit and all--Elveonora (talk) 18:24, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well no actual picture of that exists either. I mean the same mural used the sharp teeth rawr form of the Ten-Tails. And the only reason why that one is being used is because just about every other picture of the second form sucked at the time and that one was just about the most "iconic" form it appeared in so it was "literally settle for the next best thing".
 * TL;DR: We don't actually know what giant tree looked like originally, but we do know that current giant tree is probably close, considering everyone did know it to be the Ten-Tails final form.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:29, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

Ultimate, how about the tree in chapter 670? Here.  Isn't that the original Shinju? Hagoromo didn't show Naruto a random tree for no reason. WindStar7125  (Talk) 18:36, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * TheUltimate3. And I'm not going to outright remove the scanlation image because I think I was told we didn't have to, but I will ask that you not do so because blatant use of scanlation scares me greatly.
 * Now that being said, I had no memory of such a panel. It would probably work if not for the giant bloody chat bubbles but I'm sure a raw wouldn't fix that in the slightest. Someone get a raw of that panel and party dance.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:38, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * We may nicely ask Seelentau I guess--Elveonora (talk) 18:40, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

@TheUltimate3, I had no intentions of using the scanlations. Sorry for scaring you. Just wanted you to see the picture, raws are harder to find. How about this?  WindStar7125   (Talk) 18:43, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Found the raw and it is uploaded. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 18:44, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

Damn Foxie, that was fast! Eavesdropping much? :) Anyway, I'll put it in the infobox if no one else will. WindStar7125   (Talk) 18:46, June 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * Already did that too. I'm a ninja. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 18:47, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, you sure are. WindStar7125  (Talk) 18:47, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

Should we cut out the chakra fruit in that image or nah? WindStar7125  (Talk) 18:48, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

@Foxie, greatly appreciated. Also finally a topic with conclusion and results without the need for anyone to tear out his hair :P @Windstar, I don't see why would we cut the fruit--Elveonora (talk) 18:50, June 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * The fruit does make the picture longer. Cutting it out wouldn't be that much issue.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:53, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Details, people, details. Done. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 18:55, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

Then what was that tree that Obito summoned? Apparently, it co-existed with the Ten-Tails after Madara revived it. That tree must've been a "replica" as the Tailed Beast Mode section in the Jinchuuriki Forms article states. WindStar7125  (Talk) 18:55, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Gonna assume that just as the Ten-Tails can take on whatever form it wants, the jinchuriki can do the same to the trees original form. And when the Eye of the Moon plan calls for the Rinnegan to be close to the moon, he probably changed it as such. As to why it continued to exist after the Ten-Tails was turned back into the statue, well who the hell knows.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 19:02, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * ...now i like it more with the fruit. /NarutopediaProblems.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 19:03, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

Eh... sorry @Ten Tailed Fox, I'm with TU3. Can we keep the fruit? Like Elve said, greatly appreciated. WindStar7125  (Talk) 19:08, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Done. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 19:11, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

Did She Really Eat the Fruit?
From what the latest chapters told us (I can't remember if it was 681 or 682 cuz I read them together), Kaguya is an extension of the Shinju and implies the fruit eating story is not true, a fabrication, or an assumption/folklore.

And if you read into the story of the Bamboo Cutter from which her name comes, Kaguya-hime was found by a bamboo cutter inside a stalk of bamboo, which I think confirms the implications of the latest chapters. Bentheechidna (talk) 18:14, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, she ate the fruit and no, she's not an extension of the Shinju. • Seelentau 愛 議 18:19, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * She indeed ate the fruit and the Ten-Tails is basically her transformation as a result of that.--Elveonora (talk) 19:59, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Na. Otherwise, how would she be able to give birth to her sons? • Seelentau 愛 議 20:44, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * She can transform at will possibly, we may see soon enough--Elveonora (talk) 21:23, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * So she ate the fruit, transformed, turned back human(?), gave birth to her sons, transformed again, rampaged the lands and was sealed at last? Yeah... no. If the translations are correct, the currenct description of her doings in the article are what happened. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:30, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * The article says the same thing--Elveonora (talk) 21:39, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Pulling this straight out my arse, the article states that she ate the fruit, got chakra, went Psycho Crazy Level 1, had 2 sons, they got chakra, Went Psycho Crazy Level 10, she manifested with the Shinju to create the Ten-Tails, went on rampage, got pwned.
 * I think what Seelentau implied that you were saying that was she ate fruit, became Psycho Crazy Level 10, mellowed to Psycho Crazy Level 1, had 2 sons, they got chakra, went back to Psycho Crazy level 10, manifested with Shinju to create Ten-Tails.
 * Or some such.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 21:52, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * From what I understand, Black Zetsu states that she was both in Chapter 681. "First, the Juubi...it wasn't just the holy tree. My mother was part of it too. It wasn't the holy tree that was trying to take back its chakra fruit. It was my mother's will, that was trying to take back the chakra...that was shared between her two sons. Not even Hagoromo knows of this."
 * This flat out states that the Shinju, Juubi, and Kaguya are all the same being, and implies that Kaguya never stole a fruit and stole the tree's power, because she was the tree and the ten tails.

Bentheechidna (talk) 22:00, June 28, 2014 (UTC)

No, she and the Shinju were definitely (like that's not even up to an argument) two separate things originally, even BZ makes such a distinction. If Kaguya and Shinju were one, then he would have said so, rather than stating that two things make up the Ten-Tails. How and when exactly she became the Ten-Tails is something I couldn't care less about. Be it from having eaten the Shinju's fruit, literary merging with the tree or a failed attempt at coupling with it which resulted in her being permanently stuck. One way or another, Ten-Tails = both Kaguya and Shinju. Although we know that she only ate its fruit, that's why I presume it is most likely how she became the Ten-Tails. Her being possibly capable to turn into a monster, back to a "human", back to monster and then "human" again wouldn't be anything strange or new, Orochimaru can do that just fine.--Elveonora (talk) 22:07, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then why would she transform into the TT for the first time? • Seelentau 愛 議 22:21, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Let's wait for Kishi to tell us her reasons. Although she seems to be "special (word that guy used as a synonym for retarded a few days back) with first giving birth to her sons and then wanting to take back what she gave them.--Elveonora (talk) 22:27, June 28, 2014 (UTC)

Anyway, I hope the story won't turn out into something that can be summed up with: "I wish they had invented a preservative earlier"--Elveonora (talk) 22:32, June 28, 2014 (UTC)

Technique classification
mind*uck. Can we really consider her techniques to be Ninjutsu, considering her son invented Ninshu from which Ninjutsu came to be?--Elveonora (talk) 15:57, June 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure Ninjutsu is just the term used for the melding of physical and spiritual energies to create any technique. Ninshu became Ninjutsu because people weaponized the chakra Hagoromo gave them, but Kaguya had already weaponized her's way before everyone gained chakra from him. Since she was the only one capable of it at the time they probably just didn't name it. Atrix471 (talk) 16:14, June 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * I know, but the term in itself wasn't invented until after Hagoromo + she isn't even a ninja, so she doesn't use ninjutsu--Elveonora (talk) 16:18, June 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hagoromo isn't a ninja either, he's a priest. Should we take Ninjutsu off every Rinnegan technique? Besides, terms can still be applied to preceding things, so long as they fit the category. Atrix471 (talk) 16:26, June 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Just asking, because someone around these parts told me sometime ago that Samurai despite utilizing chakra in the same way Ninja do aren't using Ninjutsu. So let me get this straight:


 * ninja channeling chakra through a weapon = ninjutsu
 * some princess or a priest channeling chakra through a weapon = still would be ninjutsu
 * samurai doing just the same = not ninjutsu :P--Elveonora (talk) 16:40, June 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Maybe we should just say 'chakra is screwy' and ignore this for now... because I don't even know anymore. Atrix471 (talk) 16:55, June 29, 2014 (UTC)

Sage Art: Inorganic Reincarnation
So are we gonna list her now or what?--Elveonora (talk) 08:47, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Na, we wait, as per usual. I mean, is it now enough that just one similarity is enough? What about the sage eyes or the markings? • Seelentau 愛 議 09:05, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Naruto doesn't have markings either. And not sure if animal eyes would make sense, she wasn't taught by toads or snakes--Elveonora (talk) 09:14, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then what about Sage Mode in its entirety? • Seelentau 愛 議 11:14, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * What do you mean?--Elveonora (talk) 11:34, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, she didn't enter a Sage Transformation like Kabuto did, hm? • Seelentau 愛 議 11:40, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Why would she? She doesn't have Jugo's cells--Elveonora (talk) 11:41, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * So? Naruto doesn't have them and he did enter a Sage Transformation, as named by Madara, hm? Same goes for the man himself and of course Obito. That she used the technique is possible, but not confirmed. Let's create a list of nice thoughts and put it on that list for now. :) • Seelentau 愛 議 11:45, July 2, 2014 (UTC)

Not the same Sage Transformation as Jugo. If you mean "Six Paths Senjutsu" then she is using that, hence flight was attributed to it, not sure why she isn't listed--Elveonora (talk) 12:00, July 2, 2014 (UTC)


 * If the entire dimension is hers, shouldn't she have full control over everything in it? Wouldn't that make Inorganic Reincarnation pointless because she already controls everything?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:09, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, I mean Senninka, the same Obito used. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:49, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Ulti, possible. @Seel, she isn't a jinchuuriki.--Elveonora (talk) 12:55, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Technically, she is. She came from Madara and should have the TT inside her. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:18, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * She is the TT, she can't be jinchuuriki of herself--Elveonora (talk) 13:23, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * She is not the TT. The TT was her. • Seelentau 愛 議 14:02, July 2, 2014 (UTC)

???--Elveonora (talk) 14:34, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Seelentau is implying Kaguya Otsutsuki stopped being her when she merged with the Shinju and created the Ten-Tails. Kaguya may exist as part of the Ten-Tails, but she is still a completely separate entity and vice versa. Or something to that effect.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 15:04, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * This dude gets it. Kaguya is not the Ten-Tails. The Ten-Tails is an incarnation of Kaguya and the God Tree. Right now, Kaguya is in fact the God Tree's Jinchūriki. • Seelentau 愛 議 15:39, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * From what I've gathered, the Ten-Tails seems like a 'Tailed Beast Mode' transformation for the Shinju through Kaguya, similarly to how the regular jinchūriki do theirs. Atrix471 (talk) 16:02, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Seel, the god tree isn't a biju, so no. And you imply that she stopped being an incarnation, that hasn't been implied--Elveonora (talk) 16:05, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Again, speaking for Seelentau, he's implying that the Shinju not being a tailed beast is irrelevant, since Shinju + Kaguya made the Ten-Tails. As such, the two halves are independent of the outcome, and vice versa. Or something to that effect.
 * @Atrix471, that's one way to look at it. It's implied though that Kaguya did more than just "seal the Shinju" in herself, she and the tree together became the Ten-Tails, so after that nonsense went down, there was no Kaguya and no tree, just the Ten-Tails. Which could as Tobi has shown us, become the Shinju again because, yeah damn tree, but could not do the same with Kaguya.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:16, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * She never was an incarnation, the Ten-Tails was. Is she the Ten-Tails right now? Does the Ten-Tails even exist anymore? No. The Ten-Tails became the tree and Kaguya came out of Madara, who had the tree in himself.
 * If the God Tree is no Bijū, then why do we have several characters listed as its Jinchūriki? • Seelentau 愛 議 16:22, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Technically, the Ten-Tails existed twice. Tobi made the giant tree to do the Infinite Tsukuyomi, then got rekt'd and the tailed beasts were released and the Ten-Tails stopped being a thing. Then Madara rek'd the tailed beasts again and made the Ten-Tails again, sealing it in himself then later sealing the tree into himself. So yeah. Chakra is screwy and the Ten-Tails was in two places at once.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:27, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's not exactly like its without precedence, Kurama exists twice at the same time, albeit the half that's still inside Kaguya at the moment making up the Ten-Tails is still up for interpretation as to whether or not it still exists. Shadowfox337 (talk) 12:23, July 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * It seems like the Ten-Tails is the result of the combining of all the Tailed Beasts while the Shinju is just... hmm... what IS the Shinju these days? If it can exist at the same time as the Ten-Tails, or continue to exist once the Ten-Tails has been split into the Tailed Beasts, then technically speaking they are two separate entities. Atrix471 (talk) 16:37, July 2, 2014 (UTC)

Chakra. Is. Screwy. I don't even pretend to try and know what the hell it can or can't do anymore.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 16:40, July 2, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you are getting at Seel. From what I can gather, you imply that when Obito summoned the tree, the Ten-Tails was separated into Kaguya and Shinju again (with Kaguya staying inside and Shinju outside). Sorry, doesn't work, because after Naruto took out the Tailed Beasts from Obito, Gedo Mazo was still in him, which Madara later summoned and had the Tailed Beasts resealed into it, recreating the Ten-Tails again. She even spoke to Madara before he absorbed the outside tree.--Elveonora (talk) 16:41, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * tbh, I don't even care. I know what was written in the manga and you know that, too. It's not my fault that you try to explain stuff you can't possibly explain. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:50, July 2, 2014 (UTC)

It occurs to me that we've gotten a little off topic. In regards to the original question, I don't think it was Inorganic Reincarnation, since Kaguya has complete control over her dimension and may not even be a Sage. Atrix471 (talk) 16:53, July 2, 2014 (UTC)

There's nothing to explain. She isn't a jinchuuriki and she hasn't been separated from the Shinju yet. @Atrix, Naruto said she is one with nature or so, not that she manipulated dimension to achieve that--Elveonora (talk) 17:15, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * She does have the Six Paths Sage Technique so it could have been this technique(Kuroiraikou (talk) 17:26, July 2, 2014 (UTC))

So what is the consensus? Shall we list her as a user?--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 22:57, July 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * I've been informed in the past that we don't make assumptions on this wiki, and we don't have specifc details... so I'd assume 'no'. A sysop can feel free to correct me though. Atrix471 (talk) 22:59, July 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * As if now, still no. mainly because the discussion got off topic and went into "Kaguya/Ten-Tails" nonsense.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:32, July 5, 2014 (UTC)

Bumping this. Kakashi's deduction was likely wrong and she isn't manipulating the dimensions, only switching between already existent ones according to latest chapter. So I'd attribute the ice manipulation thing to this technique, any opposition?--Elveonora (talk) 15:31, July 10, 2014 (UTC)

Bump--Elveonora (talk) 12:23, July 11, 2014 (UTC)

Infobox
Um, what happened to her infobox? Is that a mistake, because it doesn't look right. Contribs ~ Yuri Bara ~ (talk)      19:11, July 5, 2014 (UTC)YUri
 * The image isn't loading, don't know why that is.
 * EDIT: Apparently, it's just unique to Kagyua. No idea why it's happening, but you could try asking User:UltimateSupreme. --SuperSajuuk Talk Page 19:13, July 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * "Check it out... sees a woman with horns" works just fine on my side--Elveonora (talk) 19:17, July 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * What, so it isn't really stretched for you? Atrix471 (talk) 19:19, July 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * Doesn't look out of ordinary, seems fine to me--Elveonora (talk) 19:29, July 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * I can see this link right behind her name, it's weird. However, infobox glitches appear every once in a while. I'm sure it will be fixed soon. Norleon (talk) 19:30, July 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's intended to be there lol--Elveonora (talk) 19:42, July 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * Elveonora, the problem is that the image isn't there, it's just the link itself. --SuperSajuuk Talk Page 19:43, July 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * I see the image just fine--Elveonora (talk) 19:47, July 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * It seems different for every person. For me, the infobox is much thicker than usual, but it has that link and the image. It's pretty weird. Atrix471 (talk) 20:09, July 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * Null edit the page, if that doesn't help, try to clear out your wikia cookies, although make sure you know your username and password before you do--Elveonora (talk) 20:34, July 5, 2014 (UTC)

It's normal again, for me at least. Guess wikia got its act together again. Norleon (talk) 10:01, July 6, 2014 (UTC)

Absorbing chakra ≠ absorbing jutsu?
When Kaguya stunned Naruto and Sasuke, Black Zetsu came out to absorb their chakra. Later, it said that Kaguya is able to absorb all techniques/jutsu as well, which turned out true when she made Amaterasu look like a joke. My question is: Is absorbing a technique the same as absorbing chakra from a person? If she could do that as well, why would Black Zetsu come out to do the job? If she really can absorb a person's chakra, why didn't she do so by herself? Also, I noticed something strange about the kanji used in every instance they talk about the absorbation process. On the Chakra Absorption Techniques article, it says 吸引 (Kyūin), while in chapter 681 and 682, the second kanji is always a different one. Norleon (talk) 13:00, July 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * Why use Black Zetsu to absorb the chakra when she didn't have to? Very simple; so we can get some lovely exposition. Kaguya as a character is a women of very few words, so someone had to be there and mention why she's crazy and Black Zetsu was perfect. That said absorbing chakra and jutsu are barely different, especially since jutsu are just attacking chakra stuff things.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:37, July 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * 吸引 is the noun absorption. Black Zetsu uses 吸い取る, which is a verb meaning to absorb/suck up and 吸収する, which is the participle form of 吸収, also meaning absorption. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:45, July 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * Alright, thank you for your answers. Norleon (talk) 17:53, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * As a manifestation of her own will, using Black Zetsu is akin to using herself, if you want to be technical about it. --Atrix471 (talk) 17:57, July 9, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya ancestor of Kimimaro clan?
in the last chapter she use the bone technique like kimimaro does that mean she is their clan ancestor since Kimimaro is part of the Kaguya clan ? it wouldn't be weird if the clan was named after her --Tchad1 (talk) 10:35, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * She is the ancestor of everything it seems :P Hamura or his children (or children of their children) most likely fathered Kaguya Clan and Huyga Clan, while Hagoromo's sons Ashura and Indra or their children fathered Senju and Uchiha. Kinda fits, there's both "body" and "eyes" on each side.--Elveonora (talk) 11:38, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't that make Hamura and/or Hagoromo a Shikotsumyaki user per default? • Seelentau 愛 議 11:45, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Since Hagoromo nor his children Ashura, Indra (nor their respective known descended clans) have it, then Hamura. It would also go with the body and eyes theme. Hamura inherited Byakugan and Bones, Hagoromo Rinnegan/Sharingan whatever and Senjutsu of Six Paths.--Elveonora (talk) 11:56, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * I could be persuaded either way. Also it wouldnt be the first time a genetic trait seemed to skip a generation. Or several thousand. I'm looking at you, Hashirama.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:01, July 9, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya and the Kaguya clan... not to mention the way their eyebrows are cut into ellipses for both of them... now both use bones? I always knew there was some sort of connection between the two, but it would have just been speculation then... not now... :) WindStar7125   (Talk) (Contributions) 17:33, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Honestly at this point we should just assume that - as the progenitor of chakra in humans, - she's the originator of every kekkei genkai there is. Next chapter she'll probably split into two people, like Sakon and Ukon. I do find it odd that the Kaguya clan took her first name for the clan though, rather than just keeping Ōtsutsuki. --Atrix471 (talk) 23:48, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * There is still Juugo's clan and its name maybe is hidden on purpose ;) Remember, besides Senju, there are also Uzumakis. So, Hamura also should have 2 aspects of body power. And it can be Juugo's clan. Faust-RSI (talk) 11:41, July 10, 2014 (UTC)

The best theory in my personal opinion is that: She can control her bodily function, in her first apparition, she appears manipulating own hair, also this isn't a surprise, she haves a massive amount of chakra that are made by spiritual energy + Physical energy, emphasis in physical the energy generated by the body and it cells, is probable that manipulating the raw physical energy she can manipulates the bodily aspects and functions, is probable that her capable to control even more than this, theoretically she can control own blood, internal organs, enzymes, anti-bodies, cells in general and cerebral electricity, and whit the spiritual part she able to produce any bodily control Gekken kenkai. --Dragonempeorslayer (talk) 23:36, July 22, 2014 (UTC)

Ten-Tails
Don't we need to add the Ten-Tails in her infobox as a creation, it is the same as Black Zetsu.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 17:38, July 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * If the Ten-Tails had its own page I'd say yes, but since it shares a page with the Shinju it wouldn't make sense. --Atrix471 (talk) 17:49, July 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * The Ten-Tails is her creation while the Shinju is both the original tree as well as the tree that was made by Obito from the Ten-Tails. We just need to add Ten-Tails not Shinju in her infobox, that would be enough, isn't it?--MERCURIOUS (talk) 18:23, July 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm well aware of this, but like I just said they exist on the same page, so there's no way to link only to the Ten-Tails without also linking to the Shinju, which wouldn't make sense as it is not her creation. --Atrix471 (talk) 18:28, July 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * I just did.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:35, July 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * English isn't my first language so. This mean that she have been incarnated along with the Shinju as one being, right?--MERCURIOUS (talk) 18:43, July 15, 2014 (UTC)


 * I'll be honest, I forgot the bracketed tags could be anything and not just 'creation' or other family tags. --Atrix471 (talk) 18:47, July 15, 2014 (UTC)

Correct MERCURIOUS. Kaguya + Shinju = Ten-Tails. However the Ten-Tails is able to to go back to Shinju (either on it's own or forced by jinchuriki) but Kaguya needed outside help to become herself again.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 18:48, July 15, 2014 (UTC)

And this is why it's stupid to have Shinju and Ten-Tails as one article. If you oppose merging Ten-Tails with Kaguya and Gedo Mazo, at least I beg you separate the Shinju (something that was originally separate thing) from the Ten-Tails.--Elveonora (talk) 19:58, July 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Since the Shinju and Ten-Tails are canonically able to exist at the same time as one another in their own forms, I have to agree. Madara had the Ten-Tails sealed within him while the Shinju was still standing, implying that, while they are linked, they aren't the same and as such shouldn't be listed together. --Atrix471 (talk) 20:08, July 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Neither were they the same originally. Before the two incarnated as one, they happily existed separately. Having Shinju and Ten-Tails in one article wrongly implies the Shinju was always the Ten-Tails--Elveonora (talk) 20:21, July 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well they must have been joined at some point, why else would the Shinju have disappeared after the creation of the Ten-Tails? I doubt anyone went over and cut it down. --Atrix471 (talk) 20:26, July 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, but how is that relevant? The point was that they were originally separate. Stating that Shinju is Ten-Tails is like stating that Goku and Vegeta are one character just because they fused at one point.--Elveonora (talk) 20:33, July 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not sure why you're preaching this to me of all people, since I agreed with you in this very discussion... I'm just saying they probably were joined at some point. --Atrix471 (talk) 20:43, July 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * And I'm very thankful for that. I just questioned the relevance of your comment to the topic at hand.--Elveonora (talk) 20:49, July 15, 2014 (UTC)

Tailed Beast Chakra
So, recently I was thinking about the red chakra used by the Tailed Beasts. Before we learned that Kaguya created the Ten-Tails, we were all under the impression that the Ten-Tails was the originator of this unique chakra form, but now it seems like Kaguya is actually the source of it, as the Ten-Tails was her manifestation along with the Shinju. This would mean her chakra is corrosive and would explain the potency described during Madara's transformation into her. This would also imply that the chakra fists she used against Naruto were just plain old Tailed Beast Chakra Arms. Thoughts? --Atrix471 (talk) 04:32, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * As you may know, my opinion from earlier still applies and they look nothing like chakra arms to me. To me it is more likely that it is a form of gentle fist.--Elveonora (talk) 13:33, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

chakra
She doesn't have more chakra than the Ten-Tails, she is the Ten-Tails. Naruto didn't know that when he made the statement. The reason he said that was because she was still missing the chakra that Hagoromo spread to everyone, so when she absorbed it from cocooned people, it seemed to Naruto as if she had more chakra, while in fact the extra chakra belonged to the Ten-Tails to begin with.--Elveonora (talk) 15:02, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Edit: This isn't a game where you can just pick and choose what information to add or not. It's been said, we've recorded it. It's not like we degrade Madara's intelligence section just because alot of his knowledge on the So6P was wrong and misinterpreted. The way it's currently written is simply in comparison to other characters.
 * With everyone's chakra assimilated into her, that stands as even more evidence that she currently possesses more chakra than the ten-tails Naruto and Sasuke previously encountered. That's why, among other significant reasons, it's important to document. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 16:49, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * But the chakra she assimilated into herself belonged to her in the first place, the chakra she had as the Ten-Tails during the war wasn't her maximum. What you basically want it to state is that she has more chakra than all chakra that exists or something.--Elveonora (talk) 17:01, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Whoa, so you're saying that at the time of her death, or rather the time she possessed peak power, she had all the chakra that existed and to ever exist, even past her lifetime? lolwut? Don't be ridiculous Elveo. Chakra isn't a lottery gifted to different people from her own. Even if what you say were true, that would mean she hadn't been at peak power since her children were born. It's not like she gave them the chakra (as like in a transfer). They were born with it. She hadnt lost any chakra, she is simply a greedy person and wants it all for herself. Chakra belonged to her in a sense that she is the origin from which it was first originated. She's stealing the lot, not in the sense that it was taken from her, but that she owned it initially.-- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 17:13, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Chakra is screwy, but I highly doubt childbirth causes the parent to lose chakra. Any chakra that Hagoromo, Hamura, or any of their descendants possess has not reduced her own capacity. The only one who may have lost chakra is Hagoromo, since he shared his with basically all of humanity. By absorbing the chakra of all the people trapped within the Infinite Tsukuyomi she probably has more than she did at her peak, hence 'more than the Ten-Tails'. --Atrix471 (talk) 17:17, July 28, 2014 (UTC)

There was only one chakra in the beginning Koto and all chakra that exists now is the same amount that originally existed. And yes, apparently when Hagoromo and Hamura were born, she lost some of her chakra, otherwise she wouldn't have turned into a monster to reclaim it. Hagoromo also spread chakra to everyone and Black Zetsu said that it is her chakra scattered, so yes. She now doesn't have more chakra than before, in fact she is still missing some.--Elveonora (talk) 17:32, July 28, 2014 (UTC)


 * "[...]Hagoromo also spread chakra to everyone and Black Zetsu said that it is her chakra scattered[...]"
 * Yes, I know what Hagoromo did, but your following statement... If Bl. Zet. said that, show us the source. I mean, I know how you could come to that conclusion, but unless stated specifically, that particular argument is all invalid. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 17:40, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Chapter 681 the very end--Elveonora (talk) 17:45, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Maybe a screenshot might be more help, cuz' all I see is Zetsu stating that she's the origin, which has already been said int his discussion. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 22:25, July 28, 2014 (UTC)

So I guess it all comes to interpretation if literary all chakra is hers in terms of mass or if she just feels entitled to it because she was the first one with chakra and is just power-hungry for more. I find the former more reasonable though--Elveonora (talk) 19:03, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * She's trying to create an army by essentially killing every single human and converting them into loyal 'soldiers' (read: slaves). I think she's pretty damn power hungry. --Atrix471 (talk) 19:16, July 28, 2014 (UTC)

question
Not sure whom, but at least once I saw someone remove legacy section with a reasoning that "it's reserved specifically for deceased characters" or so, and with that said, why does Kaguya have one then?--Elveonora (talk) 19:36, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because she was dead for a much greater length of time than she was alive... also the entire shinobi world is a result of her legacy, so I'd say that's pretty damn relevant. --Atrix471 (talk) 20:09, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except she hasn't been dead to our knowledge, ever. And even if she were in a hypothetical scenario, revived characters got their legacy sections removed.--Elveonora (talk) 20:12, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah but her legacy can't be understated. The Naruto universe wouldn't exist without her, so I think it's a fair exception for her alone to keep it. --Atrix471 (talk) 20:24, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * Some of that can just be moved to background section and other articles though. Legacy is something you leave behind, but she is still influencing events presently--Elveonora (talk) 20:32, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * Enough. She was plenty dead. Her physical body was long gone and had to be recreated from Madara's. That's dead enough for me. Even if, by some strange twist of fiction, Kishi reveals that she was alive for the centuries since her disappearance, her being sealed in the moon for the longest time made her dead to the world. She gets a legacy section for that reason alone and, as Atrix so wisely stated, her legacy is quite a lengthy one. Lastly, I highly doubt you need to argue a technicality. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 20:37, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * Her body wasn't recreated from Madara's, where do you people get these things from? She simply took over him from inside, no differently than Kurama did over Naruto against Pain. And I'm just trying to make sure things are consistent. As I said, someone removed legacy section or two in the past because a character was alive/brought back to life, so this should be treated the same way. Everything that's in that section can be added elsewhere--Elveonora (talk) 20:42, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * She did not take him over from the inside. That exists in your mind only. The rest of us saw Black Zetsu inject her will into Madara, his body then covered Madara's, and Kaguya was reborn. There was not take over from within, it was a completely outward takeover, and there is 100% no evidence to the contrary. Drop the "you people" nonsense when you don't have any physical evidence to suggest otherwise. She keeps the Legacy section because she was deader than Justin Bieber's singing career until a couple of chapters ago. With that, I'm out. Arguments between you and me tend to get out of hand, so I'll let Ultimate and Omni chime in if they feel the need. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 20:51, July 31, 2014 (UTC)

Except she did. What Black Zetsu did was make Madara absorb chakras of Jukai Kotan victims, which was too much for him to handle and resulted in loss of control, allowing Kaguya to take over. She was inside of Madara since the moment he became her jinchuuriki--Elveonora (talk) 20:54, July 31, 2014 (UTC)


 * Except no. That's not what we saw. We saw Black Zetsu stick his hand through Madara's chest and then spread across his entire body. Ignoring the hell out of this bullcrap discussion that we've been having over and over again, I am honestly completely stumped. While we do typically leave Legacy for dead characters, Kaguya, while perhaps not perma-dead, was dead enough to warrant such a section for most of the series. Eh I could go either way, but I lean more towards keeping the section.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 21:01, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * Black Zetsu spread across Madara the same way he coated Obito. All he did was make Madara absorb too much chakra. In no point in history did her death occur. She was:


 * defeated by her sons and sealed
 * unsealed by Madara
 * restored

She even spoke to Madara to absorb the tree, pretty much dismissing your death fallacy--Elveonora (talk) 21:06, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * People like to tell me that Kaguya is the Ten-Tails. If this is true, then 'Kaguya' had her chakra split into nine different pieces and 'her' lifeless body was sealed into the moon. A human without chakra is usually dead. --Atrix471 (talk) 21:20, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * You're absolutely right. A human (or any being, since I sense an extraterrestrial debate, via Hagoromo's joke with Naruto coming) without chakra is dead: cue Kakashi. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 21:29, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not all of her chakra was drained. Madara plugged himself to the statue, draining its chakra to keep himself alive, that doesn't sound like "dead" to me. Also dead ones do not make noises and move--Elveonora (talk) 21:31, July 31, 2014 (UTC)

Jinchūriki 2
Well considering she technically is in Madaras body with the Ten-Tails inside that... and even more obvious with that deformed...rabbit-Bijuu form she just took...--RexGodwin (talk) 09:31, August 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * She isn't in Madara's body and doesn't have Ten-Tails inside, she is the Ten-Tails, so she is outside. But yes, she is a jinchuuriki of the Tailed Beasts inside. The deformed rabbit is the Tailed Beasts messing up with her because they reacted to their chakras from Naruto, she is losing control in short--Elveonora (talk) 09:58, August 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Considering the Eldritch abomination she is now, maybe we should create a section listing the different forms she has assumed. Adept-eX (talk) 14:20, August 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * I continue to go both ways on the issue, especially now that the tailed beasts (with Ten-Tails included I guess) appeared as the same blob monstrosity they were stuck in when Obito pulled out pieces of the One and Eight-Tails. But this is like the third or fourth time this has been brought up and unless new actual information about what happened to Madara with all of this nothing changes.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:28, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

Obviously its Madaras body...how else would she be physically present? Its not like she had her own body and why else would BZ use Madz as a sacrifice? He simply transferred her Will and rewrote his body. And we need to do something, as that rabbit form was clearly the Juubi before being deformed and twisted; as we can see it makes up of the the other Bijuu.--RexGodwin (talk) 16:22, August 6, 2014 (UTC)


 * The rabbit thing is mentioned in both Kaguya and the Shinju articles. Beyond that, not much else to say.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:34, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

@Rex, that's not what happened, like not at all. You've got it wrong, not sure why people misinterpret what happened:
 * She was inside of him all along
 * She had her own body, the Ten-Tails
 * BZ didn't transfer her will and rewrote his body, he took control of Madara and had him absorb chakras from cocooned people
 * Doing so resulted in his loss of control and allowed her to emerge
 * The rabbit is Kaguya's failed attempt at transforming into Ten-Tails due to the Tailed Beasts screwing her over from inside--Elveonora (talk) 19:29, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

Well, she is the "Rabbit Goddess"... but that transformation seemed out of even Kaguya's control... WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 19:32, August 6, 2014 (UTC)


 * **clears throat**
 * Whatever you say.
 * Whatever you say
 * Uh huh.
 * Sure.
 * Right.
 * Yes WindStar that blob does seem out of her control. I highly doubt she had any intention of turning into anything considering how surprised she was when that started happening and Black Zetsu stated that giant rabbit blob monster was beyond her control. But considering we know next to nothing about it and to avoid the pissing contest this topic tends to become, there remains nothing more to be said about it.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 19:55, August 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Funny. And yes, the rabbit or whatever wasn't her intent. She can't transform properly, but she is still in control of her actions, since I doubt the Tailed Beasts would want to kill them--Elveonora (talk) 20:07, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

Isn't she technically the jinchūriki of the Shinju? She may be the Ten-Tails but she certainly isn't the Shinju, which, may I remind you all, was one of the two pieces required to manifest the Ten-Tails in the first place. We specify 'Shinju' as the tailed beast when we list Shinju/Ten-Tails jinchūriki anyway. --Atrix471 (talk) 21:34, August 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Her being a jinchuriki really really depends on how yo interpret what the fudge happened to Madara. For example, I believe Black Zetsu engulfed Madara and used his body as a medium, forming his body into Kaguya's. Elve will tell you in as many different discussions as possible that Black Zetsu had Kaguya and Madara "switch places", but instead of Madara being sealed within Kaguya, he was just straight up destroyed.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 21:47, August 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Let's leave Madara out of equation, okay? For Shinju, it's not a Tailed Beast, so she isn't its jinchuuriki. The reason we specify Shinju for jinchuuriki as Tailed Beast is because the Ten-Tails is yet to be separated from Shinju article. Don't ask me why, I'm as clueless as you are--Elveonora (talk) 21:55, August 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Can't leave Madara out of the equation. He's sort of the thorn that keeps this an argument. Unless you wish to ignore it of course. But that's not exactly solving the question now isn't it.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 21:57, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

If she's able to transform into the Ten-Tails, as Black Zetsu said, then she must be able to access the Shinju's chakra. So... yeah, how you interpret that is up to you. --Atrix471 (talk) 22:18, August 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * The Shinju and she incarnated as one, that means they are one and the same now, the Ten-Tails, so it's not sealed inside of her. Also even if it were, someone told me a jinchuuriki is someone with a Tailed Beast inside, so having a tree stuck in her ass wouldn't count--Elveonora (talk) 22:31, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

Was Black Zetsu lying...
...when he said Kaguya could absorb any technique? In the last chapter she definitely took damage from Naruto's Rasenshuriken barrage, if not much. This leads me to believe that Black Zetsu was either lying or just wrong. Thoughts? --Atrix471 (talk) 19:41, August 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * She didn't take any actual damage, her hair just got tangled.--Elveonora (talk) 19:44, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

Well maybe not any technique. The Rasenshuriken barrage had senjutsu chakra in them. Senjutsu is the most effective against the Ten-Tails, and Kaguya is the Ten-Tails, like @Elveo says. Ask the Preta Path what happens when one absorbs too much natural energy from the senjutsu chakra. :) WindStar7125   (Talk) (Contributions) 19:47, August 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not sure how to argue with that... --Atrix471 (talk) 19:52, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not saying the Black Zetsu was lying, but lets not forgot that the manifestation utterly worships its "mother". Sometimes people have a way of fooling themselves and blowing things out of proportions. Yes, Kaguya is the single most powerful being in the Naruto series, but even she fears being defeated, having at one point trying to separate Naruto and Sasuke due to their combined power.—Steveo920 (Talk) 15:57, August 12, 2008
 * No actual damage was done to her from the shurikens. Her hair got tangled and debris is flying around her. Had they done any damage to her, she would have been dust from that. Also the point of them wasn't even to deal any damage, but to connect the chakras of the Tailed Beasts in Naruto to those in Kaguya--Elveonora (talk) 20:10, August 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I did reply the first time but my post vanished: Look at her right sleeve. --Atrix471 (talk) 20:20, August 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Clothing isn't part of one's body. You won't damage me if you manage to tear my sleeve--Elveonora (talk) 20:37, August 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Black Zetsu wasn't lying. Since we know the Ten-Tails can basically no sell just about any technique that isn't senjutsu, Kaguya can no sell any technique that isn't senjutsu. Naruto hit her with 9 senjutsu powered Rasenshuriken. She took whatever damage that does.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 20:48, August 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * ^^^^^Thank you. There was no way she could have absorbed senjutsu techniques, so she had no choice but to take them on. WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 21:24, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

Alright then, case closed. --Atrix471 (talk) 23:46, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

It seems she did absorbed most of it as the explosion was much small than the last time Naruto throw one. Man of Sin (talk) 04:30, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

All the elements, nature types and KKG
Well shit. Her info box will be rather cluttered.--Reliops (talk) 06:19, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * By the way, you see how the Susanoo had Kakashi's left scar on it, right? That means it's Kakashi's bloody Susanoo... back to the point, her infobox will be filled. WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 06:23, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Fuelled by Obito's freaking chakra, i.e. Obito was able to use Susanoo at the time of his death which was the bigger concern for me. Staying on point: there will be a lot to add though, enough to make her info box look like this is a fanon wiki page.--Reliops (talk) 06:31, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

I don't think we should assume what "all" KKG means.--Elveonora (talk) 09:05, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

I never denied Kakashi using Obito's chakra, I deny the fact that the Susanoo Kakashi is using is Obito's. It has the scar on the left eye just like Kakashi. Could Obito use Susanoo? Maybe. But we won't know for certain and I don't anticipate him being added as a user on the Susanoo article. Just because Kakashi is using Obito's chakra, does not mean the Susanoo is Obito's. It's clearly Kakashi's and only Kakashi's now. Even if Obito was shown using Susanoo, I don't think the scar would be there. Back to the point, @Elveo is correct, we can't assume things just yet, let's wait for the Mangastream scan and the raws and we'll see what we can do from there. WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 09:14, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Enough with the Kakashi Susanoo topic, no reason to bring it everywhere. For the KKG, does she have Sakon&Ukon's KKG, Jugo's KKG etc. too? That's why it's not good to assume. But one thing is clear, she is the originator of Kekkei Genkai, obviously--Elveonora (talk) 09:20, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Agreeable. She has Wood Release, Shikotsumyaku, the Rinnegan, etc. She is the originator of Kekkei Genkai. WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 09:24, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Hiruzen, the "Professor", was said to know all techniques in Konoha, yet we didnt add every single technique used there to his infobox, did we? Best leave what BZ said as a mention somewhere in her abilities section, and leave it be. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 09:26, August 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * While we aren't going to go down the list and give her every bloody kekkei genkai, listing her as a user of the elements shouldn't be a problem, as messed up as that will make her infobox.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 09:41, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Mangastream makes it sound like Kaguya has all nature transformations that are kekkai genkai (Wood release, blaze release, etc.) rather than merely all kekkai genkai. So we wait for Viz and the raws. WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 20:41, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

So, why aren't all (known) elements added to her info box? Patsoumas1995 (talk) 19:32, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Debut
Technically, Kaguya appeared as the Ten-Tails before she did as a humanoid, so I don't think 670 is correct--Elveonora (talk) 22:16, August 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * 670 is when Kaguya as we know her appeared. Ten-Tails debuted on its own. Yes, they're the same being literally, but from a literary standpoint, they're two separate characters. Kaguya — as the every day reader knows her — is not a mindless tree monster, no more than the Ten-Tails is a rabbit woman. Leaving the debuts, as they are, is fine. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 22:29, August 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, it's still incorrect though. In 670 it was just Hagoromo's mind bubble, not her in person--Elveonora (talk) 22:32, August 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, and Hagoromo's debut was in a mind bubble too. Failing to see your point. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 22:42, August 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * We should change it to actual in flesh debuts?--Elveonora (talk) 22:44, August 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * But.. that's not what a debut is? Debut is when they appear in the series; whether as a flashback, a corpse, or in person. She appeared in Hagoromo's memories in that chapter. We list Hamura's debut and he's only appeared in flashbacks too, so by your logic, he hasn't ever appeared. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 22:56, August 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * We don't list Obito's debut as a photo either, do we?--Elveonora (talk) 08:38, August 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's because his name wasn't given, he was just a dude on a picture at that time. • Seelentau 愛 議 09:24, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

Ugh, this whole "debut policy" (if there was any in the first place) hasn't made sense to me in a while, but if you insist so, then 670 it is--Elveonora (talk) 09:42, August 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Basically, a debut in this context is the earliest point where the audience becomes aware of something. For a character, if it's a picture without a name, we aren't made aware of that characters identity. If it's a mental pool depicting Kaguya with her name stated, we are.

confirmed what I was saying
That everyone's chakra once belonged to Kaguya literary, meaning Kaguya's original chakra equals the sum of chakra of all living beings.--Elveonora (talk) 14:16, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Noho~. The people used Hagoromo's chakra to create their own, new chakra. Chakra that did not exist before. It literally can't be Kaguya's chakra. Kaguya says it's her chakra because she's a maniac. • Seelentau 愛 議 14:19, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * And before anyone questions her being a manic, you have to be one if your solution to get back chakra was to merge with a giant $#(@*ing tree and think that'll work.--TheUltimate3 Amegakure_Symbol.svg (talk) 14:20, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's your reasoning?... If she says that chakra of others is her scattered chakra, then we should take her word for that. No offense, but a character's words which Kishi wrote are more credible than any fan's opinion. Why should I take your word instead of hers?--Elveonora (talk) 14:23, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * You know what's funny, you say this when not a while ago, you were perfectly fine saying that Gyuki's "the next form is the final form" weighed less than your opinion of what the Ten-Tails final form was, even using reasoning like "why would its final form be immobile".--TheUltimate3 Amegakure_Symbol.svg (talk) 14:25, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's not reasoning, it's plain logic. It's her opinion that the chakra used by mankind is hers, because originally, chakra was hers and if she didn't pass on her chakra to her sons, mankind would've never learned how to make their own chakra. It's like saying "I lend you money and if you make more money with it, that additional money is mine, too.". Get it? • Seelentau 愛 議 14:28, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

But the original chakra that mankind and otherwise were given actually belonged to her. Just because they molded more doesn't mean her chakra in their bodies vanished. By your logic the chakras of all 9 Tailed Beasts isn't also Kaguya's, because they molded their own chakra too.--Elveonora (talk) 14:31, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * We don't know what happened to Hagoromo's chakra when the shinobi molded new chakra. • Seelentau 愛 議 14:34, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, yet we consider the chakras of Tailed Beasts to be Kaguya's, so why not the people's?--Elveonora (talk) 14:35, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Technically I wouldn't even consider the Tailed Beasts to be Kaguya's chakra, but made from it (subtle difference but difference nonetheless), but they were specifically separated from the whole and given life. I doubt Hagoromo sat there on the hill and started throwing chakra at people.--TheUltimate3 Amegakure_Symbol.svg (talk) 14:39, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Wouldn't this mean that Kaguya's/Shinju's chakra is ad infinitum? Kaguya means chakra was originally hers and hers alone and her son(s) got it and went and gave the knowledge of how to use it other people. Not that people's chakra is her own. I don't think any of that should be taken literally.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 20:11, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * The family were the only ones with chakra. Hagoromo literary spread chakra to others.--Elveonora (talk) 21:17, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Tailed Beast Ball
Question, since the Ten-Tails is Kaguya's beast form, isn't it possible that she created the Tailed Beast Ball? I thought about it because the Shinju, being a tree, couldn't create it. Kaguya, being the one to transform into Ten-Tails, is the only one capable of making it. Clockwerkiswatching (talk) 02:49, September 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think you are a little confused. The Ten Tails isn't just a reincarnation of Kaguya, but the tree as well. Neither Kaguya, nor Shinju (God Tree), are automatically users of the techniques performed by the Ten-Tails. It's a separate entity that has its exclusive powers. Leo  Hatake  04:56, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

I get what you're saying. But, it was Kaguya's will that got the tree to turn into a giant monster. Now, you may be right. Maybe I'm thinking too hard. Clockwerkiswatching (talk) 05:46, September 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * Leo, the Shinju isn't known to have had any mind at all. Presumably it was a plant like any other, except with magical fruit. Look up what incarnation means. The Ten-Tails' mind is exclusively of Kaguya's unless proven otherwise.--Elveonora (talk) 11:52, September 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * So? What's your point? I don't want to draw conclusions about your words. I agree with you and I'm sorry if you understood the contrary. I just explained that the Ten-Tails is a new beast conformed by two-parts and, although Kaguya's mind probably be the one controlling it, it still have new powers/abilities that not necessarily Kaguya has to have. Leo  Hatake  20:08, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Read the original comment. The question is if Kaguya invented the TBB since she is the Ten-Tails--Elveonora (talk) 20:10, September 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm getting tired of give the same explanation over and over again. I read the question and I have already answered that no, Kaguya didn't invent the TBB because Kaguya is not the Ten-Tails. The Ten-Tails is a different entity/beast/organism that probably contains the mind of Kaguya, but that doesn't make her the beast. Are we clear?. In case that you still don't understand this and, because I really don't want to explain this again, I will try to explain this of another way: Kaguya became one with the Shinju. This means Shinju + Kaguya = Ten Tails. Everything ok at this point?. Perfect. So, we have three different characters that have their own abilities/attacks/powers/specifications. Ten Tails is not just Kaguya. Ten Tails is not just Shinju. It's both, so if Kaguya is attributed with the TBB without she being showed doing it, you also have to attributed it to the Shinju. However, the logical and no speculative way to do this is separate the Ten-Tails of the rest and give it own techniques Leo  Hatake  20:51, September 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * Until I see Kaguya (in her human form) open her beak, form a blob of black chakra, fire it, and blow something the **** up, then no, Kaguya doesn't have the TBB. Her Ten-Tails form can, and it is aptly listed as a user, but the person entailed on this article cannot. Find something else to argue about. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 14:28, September 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * You know well that TBB can't be used in human form. The OP asked if she developed the technique, not if she can use it in human form. Since she is chronologically the first known user, then it would seem she came up with TBB--Elveonora (talk) 15:33, September 2, 2014 (UTC)


 * Then it really doesn't matter. The Ten-Tails actually developed it, regardless of whether they're the same person or not. It doesn't get a mention here, though. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 15:47, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

Transform at Will
I know I'm going to regret this, but this has been bugging me for a while now. When exactly did she transform to the Ten-Tails at will? We know she turned became the Ten-Tails when she merged with the tree, but then she stayed in that form up until she pulled her Grand Theft Me on Madara, and we know that because Hamura and Hagoromo sealed the Ten-Tails, not their mother. The only time we've seen her transform at will was when she regained her human form after Naruto caused the chakra inside her to wild turning her into that giant rabbit blob monster which Black Zetsu said was a form of the Ten-Tails she couldn't control. So yeah, question; when did she transform to and back at will?--TheUltimate3 (talk) 09:54, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * When she turned into a rabbit, she did so because she was to turn into Ten-Tails, but Naruto sabotaged her attempt with his TBs' chakras. Then she regained control and turned human. That's pretty much at will--Elveonora (talk) 10:02, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * And where exactly did it say or even look like she was transforming at will? Because based on the panel just before she started transforming, her expression was one of shock (exclamation mark) meaning that wasn't on purpose. So I don't see a part where she was trying to turn into the Ten-Tails but as I stated, a transformation caused by the tailed beast chakra in her reacting violently to the tailed beast chakra Naruto threw at her. As I said, when she had control, she regained human form, but I have yet to see her transform into Ten-Tails and maintain control.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 10:47, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's what the dialogue said. Her expression of shock was because of Tailed Beasts' chakras leaking out of her body. Why wouldn't she be able to transform at will? It's her own body. Incarnation isn't possession.--Elveonora (talk) 11:08, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Don't know. Why didn't she just transform into herself as soon as Madara and Obito revived the Ten-Tails if she had the power to do so any time she wanted? Either way, I'm not to pressed over it. I just never saw the part where she transformed to and from.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 11:10, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

It hasn't been spelled out. But everything suggests she can take on humanoid form only when she is high on chakra. The more her chakra drops, the more she turns Ten-Tails or so, ultimately becoming the "gedo mazo" at the lowest.--Elveonora (talk) 11:38, September 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Except that was suggested practically nowhere. Like at all. I'm sure you'll be able to point me where, but as I said before, I'm really not pressed over it.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 11:41, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Just an observation. Chakra taken away = degrades into a statue, chakra restored = evolves from statue into a bulbasaur, then sumo wrestler and finally into human perhaps.--Elveonora (talk) 12:14, September 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Black Zetsu actually did say that Kaguya's resurrection required the scattered chakra to be regathered at the end of chapter 681. So she may or may not be able to become Ten-Tails at will, but she definitely can't return to being a "human" until most of the world's chakra is regathered into Ten-Tails/its jinchūriki.--BeyondRed (talk) 20:20, September 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Ulti, see? there you have it... and people disagree with me about the everyone's chakra having been Kaguya's... why else would she need their chakra if it weren't hers?--Elveonora (talk) 20:26, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

Back to the natures
So is Kaguya the user of all elemental natures or what? I did not see where it was decided either way.--J spencer93 (talk) 02:33, September 5, 2014 (UTC)