Talk:Truth-Seeking Ball

New Chapter 665
Well, as of this new chapter, last page, Obito has used this technique using the Yin-Yang that makes up Black Zetsu. Obviously he's no longer the Ten-Tails' jinchūriki, so it can't just require the Ten-Tails' chakra to use, but any source of Yin-Yang chakra. Thoughts? ~ Ten Tailed Fox 07:12, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * It looked like he used some of Black Zetsu to make an orb, and he had his hand through Madara's chest. This is confusing. --OmegaRasengan (talk) 07:20, February 19, 2014 (UTC)


 * We can't be sure if he was using Black Zetsu to create the orb. It looks like he could just be forcing Black Zetsu off of his arm to regain control of it, and we can't rule out that he may still be using Ten-Tails' chakra somehow, since he was touching Madara at the time.--BeyondRed (talk) 07:23, February 19, 2014 (UTC)


 * While I'd say Obito could do it only because he's touching Madara's body, I suggest we wait the next chapter before putting any trivia.--JOA20 (talk) 07:25, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

To be on the safe side, we could call this "Malleable Chakra Spheres" or something to that extent, since at the very least, being Ten-Tails' current jinchuriki isn't a requirement to use this.--BeyondRed (talk) 07:44, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

yeah, as evident that how Obito was able to re-materialize his shakujō --141elitesupermegamode (talk) 08:11, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

You all jump to conclusions, he has his hand in Madara's gut and is likely absorbing the chakra, nothing to do with BZ--Elveonora (talk) 11:04, February 19, 2014 (UTC)


 * I wanted to say that the Mallebale Chakra doesn't require Ten-Tails' jinchuriki when I saw the end of the chapter. But honestly, Elveonora has a point. He has his hand stuck in Madara's chest, then he started forming the Malleable Chakra. So for this, I would say wait of next chapter.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:22, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, like honestly, Malleable Chakra is 4 or more natures (+ additional/optional YYR) used with Shinju's chakra and BZ is Madara's will incarnate. You guys racists, not two blacks alike!!!--Elveonora (talk) 12:20, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

For now, what I understand is happening is that Obito is syphoning the Ten-Tails' chakra from Madara to make the shakujō. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:38, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except that the panels explicitly show him turning the black material from Black Zetsu, on his arm, into the orb, which then turns into the shakujō. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:40, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't say so. In my opinion he simply is suppressing Black Zetsu, the orb is unrelated mass. I mean, he made a staff, wouldn't have that taken more BZ mass if that were true? We don't know until next chapter I suppose--Elveonora (talk) 17:47, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * True, we can wait, but I think you lot are forgetting that "suppressing Black Zetsu" isn't exactly a very smart idea for him, since Black Zetsu is kinda the thing keeping him alive. And you can literally see the black ooze coming off of him and turning into the orbs. But I suppose the majority won't be convinced until they're shown flat out that stabbing your hand into someone's chest doesn't let you use their bijū. Next week it is >_< ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:01, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Since Black Zetsu is a jinchuuriki of Kurama and Obito gained control over Black Zetsu, wouldn't that make Obito the jinchuuriki? So that should kinda keep him alive I guess. And I see it differently. You see, it looks like Obito simply rolled up his BZ sleeve and there's the orb next to it. we don't see the two connected and the former turning into latter--Elveonora (talk) 18:11, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

What we saw was the BZ material receding, that doesn't mean it's being turned into the staff. The BZ mass didn't travel from his arm to the space above his hand, the chakra there simply appeared. I wouldn't say that Obito is the host of Yin Kurama. He maybe be in control of the host, but isn't himself the host. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:17, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Ten-Tails Malleable Chakra is called Ringa?
In chapter 666, Madara was shooting black orbs at Obito and Kakashi which was the Ten-Tails Malleable Chakra but he called them "Ringa". Is this true or is it some misunderstanding? :/

Oh yeah, I read chapter 666 again but from a different website and instead of Ringa, it was Limbo. What the heck is going on? --DetectiveDuckling (talk) 11:04, February 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * Just wait for the raws. Then Seelentau-senpai will take care of it.--JOA20 (talk) 11:10, February 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * But, the Ringa is different than another similarly named techinque? --Pat141elite (talk) 11:53, February 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * Even then, Madara said he wouldn't use Ringa on Obito as he needed the Rinnegan. Then he threw two chakra spheres at them. So it's safe to assume that the chakra spheres are not Ringa, whatever that is.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:46, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

Its rinbo. The translation on mp and mr is off. Read the ms version. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 14:07, February 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * This. Seelentau 愛議 18:16, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

Senjutsu
In chapter 643, Naruto declares that the technique is Senjutsu, stating that "The toads' attacks are called Senjutsu, in other words they use Natural Energy. Now that I think about it, when I sensed the Juubi's power it felt like Natural Energy. Maybe you can fight Natural Energy using Natural Energy..." He effectively clarifies that his Senjutsu attacks can counteract the Ten-Tail's own Malleable Chakra, which is also apparently Senjutsu/Natural Energy-Based. Skarrj (talk) 07:26, March 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * He said that the Ten-Tails is natural energy, not the chakra weapons. Seelentau 愛議 08:14, March 3, 2014 (UTC)

Really TT's Chakra?
Was this special Chakra ever attributed to being the TT's Jinchūriki? I know how this sounds, but seeing Obito using the Chakra orbs without being the TT's Jinchūriki made me think that it's not really the TT's chakra. This is furthermore supported by the fact that it's described as a super-advanced nature and later as YYR. It has to do with the control over the TT, yes, but I doubt that it's actually the TT's very own Chakra. Seelentau 愛議 11:11, March 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * I am very unsure when and where it was called the Ten-Tails' chakra. But having access to Ten-Tails is defiantly needed to create/use them.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:27, March 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * And yet, Obito did it without being a Jinchuriki. Seelentau 愛議 11:50, March 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * He also stuck his hand in Madara and drained chakra from him. Up until that point, he had no Chakra Spheres. Then hand in chest and he sucked (ha ha!) and boom, Chakra Spheres.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:05, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Basically what I mean is Ten-Tails' chakra is needed, being the jinchuriki is not.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:06, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * He didn't drain Madara's Chakra. He drained the Biju and Hashirama's Senchakra. Seelentau 愛議 13:10, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * /shrug perhaps. But observations speak for themselves. Until he had his hand in Madara's stomach, he had no chakra sphere. Then hand in gut and boom, chakra sphere, producing the same weapon he wielded when he was the Ten-Tails jinchuriki and in the same manner. So from that, unless you wish to avoid a logical conclusion, he got Ten-Tails chakra from Madara.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:20, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Again, those black orbs where never stated to be TT's chakra, if I recall correctly (and I tend to do that). So that means if the orbs weren't made of TT's chakra the first time, there's the possibilty they aren't made from it this time. This leaves us with two other options: Either Obito used the Biju's chakra, but I doubt that, since they're for Naruto, who's missing those two chakras yet. Or Obito used Hashirama's Senchakra, which is likely, but I don't believe it to be true, since there's another third possibility which we haven't paid attention to: Kuro Zetsu's vanishing at the same time the orb was formed. I know most people say that he fled because of how dangerous the orb is, but that mustn't be necessarily true. If you don't want to touch a dangerous object, you wouldn't retreat one finger at a time, would you? But Kuro Zetsu basically did that. That's why I assume that Obito formed the orb out of Kuro Zetsu, meaning it has nothing to do with the TT's chakra. Seelentau 愛議 13:38, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

So that assumes Madara is just a jackhole who could have made the Chakra Spheres at any time, but choose not to until he was the Ten-Tails jinchuriki when they could have been used at any time before to devastating effect? That seems perfectly logical and I am being very sarcastic. Obviously we know very little specifically about the chakra spheres, save that until someone did something with the Ten-Tails they weren't an issue. Whether or not they are the jinchuriki or not seems irrelevant, or what they are made with. The only constant and I'm sure you are going to come up with a slew of reasons to tell me this is wrong, but as I am saying this before you, the only constant between the use of the Orbs was contact with the Ten-Tails jinchuriki, be it being the jinchurki, or sticking your hand in his gut.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 13:55, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Also I foresee this going nowhere so I'm gonna keep my mouth shut on this matter for now. Others need to respond, and no that does not mean just go about with whatever changes you may have in mind if they don't because this discussion will still be "live".--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:58, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's the only constant, yes. But as I mentioned earlier, I don't deny that the orbs have something to do with the Ten-Tails. I'm only saying that they're most likely not made of its Chakra. And I'm not the windmill, I'm the wind that moves it. Or at least I try to. In the end, it's up to you regular editors. Seelentau 愛議 14:01, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh to that? Nah I don't think its specifically the Ten-Tails chakra. I don't think the Ten-Tails has...unique chakra anyway. But that's just my interpretation.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:16, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * And by unique chakra, I mean when you look at the Ten-Tails as a sensor, I don't think you actually get "This is Ten-Tails." you get "This is Shukaku, Matatabi, Isobu,-" eh you get the idea.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:17, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

Which means we're back where we started, with my question being the same: Has this special Chakra ever been described as the Ten-Tail's own Chakra? Seelentau 愛議 14:22, March 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * Ooooh. No. No I don't think it ever has been. If anything the name be changed to avoid the confusion, but I can't think of another name for it.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:41, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

I'm with Ultimate on this one. Obviously it's the Ten-Tails' chakra, why wouldn't it be? A Jinchuuriki has access to his or her Tailed Beasts' chakra. Roshi had Lava Release from Son Goku as well. Obito simply absorbed some Shinju chakra from Madara while massaging his guts.--Elveonora (talk) 17:34, March 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * Clarification Elvenora, thanks to Seelentau clarifying what he was trying to say; I am of mind that while the ability is Ten-Tails based, the chakra spheres are not specifically Ten-Tails chakra. You need to have some sort of connection with the Ten-Tails (like being its jinchuriki or sticking your hand inside the jinchuriki's colon), but I do not think the Ten-Tails actually has specific chakra.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 19:21, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Its chakra seems to be a requirement in order to use the "at least 4 nature transformation mix" chakra. In my opinion it's the same as Son Goku's Lava Release. Shinju can simply mix not just two but most if not all natures into one and its jinchuuriki or those with its chakra have access to this power. That doesn't of course mean the Shinju's chakra in its default/pure state equals the black mass/orbs and shi* if that's what Seel is trying to say. In fact, I don't think this should even be considered a technique, it's its own nature--Elveonora (talk) 22:20, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * "why wouldn't it be?" - because it was never said. Seelentau 愛議 17:03, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * Whether it's specifically the Ten-Tails' chakra, or something that only those who host it can do, there's no denying that the Ten-Tails is the source of this ability. I feel this is more a matter of semantics than anything else. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:20, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * What Omni said, I don't see the difference--Elveonora (talk) 17:27, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

Well, we named it TT's Chakra, but it obviously isn't its Chakra. Seelentau 愛議 10:29, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * I can see you having issues with the way the article is named, but for its workings, wow come? Don't jinchuuriki use their tailed beasts' chakras? Of course it must not be the TTs' chakra alone and in its pure form, for all we know it can be a mix of Obito/Madara and the Shinju's chakras. The point stays tho that they can use this super advanced nature transformation only as its jinchuuriki or while having its chakra. With that being said, what's your opinion on converting this into a nature transformation article? It's not a Tailed Beast Skill. We even changed Roshi's Lava into KKG--Elveonora (talk) 11:11, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Again: Obito didn't suck out any of Madara's TB Chakra. However he formed the staff, it's not made of the same Chakra as the orbs. The orbs, on the other hand, haven't been attributed to the TT. There is a connection, but not the one we're currently stating. Seelentau 愛議 11:14, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * How do you know he didn't suck any chakra and that the staff isn't made of the same substance as the orbs? I'm not saying you are wrong, because this one is complex, but what changes would you imagine to be done to the article as it is now other than its name?--Elveonora (talk) 11:24, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know that I'm right, I only know that it's wrong to say the opposite, since it was never stated.
 * Other than its name, I don't really know. I wrote most of it down in the Chakra article over at the German wiki, since I couldn't think of an article name. Maybe we should do something similar here, like adding it to the Onmyōton article or so... Seelentau 愛議 11:30, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

May you please copy what you wrote about it over at German wiki? Thanks--Elveonora (talk) 11:32, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's just a small part here. I wrote "After becoming the TT's Jinchuriki, Obito is able to use an advanced chakra nature which is comprised of at least four chakra natures, according to Hiruzen Sarutobi. Later, Obito gains full control over the TT, which enables him to use the chakra nature more precise. Tobirama notices that the chakra nature is actually YYR, which can undo all Ninjutsu, making it a perfect counter for Edo Tensei. Only Senjutsu can't be undone, since they're not made of normal cakra.". I didn't have the time to write about Madara yet^^ Seelentau 愛議 11:37, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Now I get your point. You mean to say the Shinju is the source of the power to combine the natural transformations, but that necessarily doesn't make the substance its chakra, kinda like Gaara isn't using Shukaku's chakra while manipulating the sand despite the beast being the origin of the power. But that doesn't explain why could Obito do it again only while coming into contact with Madara. That would be like someone having powers of a tailed beast just by touching its body or chakra. I guess the conclusion that it's the Shinju's chakra even tho unconfirmed is only logical, the articles even state Obito could use it again after absorbing Madara, so it's a general consensus he did absorb Madara. How are you so sure he didn't? No aura around his hand drawn, no sound effect indication or anything? Also I'm still confused about your supposed differentiation between the staff and the orbs if any :P--Elveonora (talk) 12:08, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's not about the staff right now. My problem is that the black chakra has not been described as the Ten Tails' chakra. There is a connection between both, but not the one we're currently stating there is. Seelentau 愛議 12:51, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, so rename and a little bit of rewording. See? Even the two of us can sometime get along :P I would like this best converted into nature transformation page tho... So, any opposition to this anyone?--Elveonora (talk) 13:03, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

Mhm. I've been reading this discussion for the past 35 minutes trying to come to my own conclusion. But yea, what Seel is saying makes perfect sense. I can't believe i never doubted this as a technique sooner, it would make more sense as a chakra nature for sure. But even so, would we create a technique page for the nature? Or are we simply adding this to the YYR Nature transformation? Besides that, i'm in for renaming the page and renovating the article.--NaviiGator (A.K.A.KotoSenju) Talk Page-My Contributions 15:12, March 10, 2014 (UTC)