Talk:Kaguya Ōtsutsuki

Contradictions
This page says Kaguya was the first human to possess Chakra. The Chakra page says chakra is in every cell of the body. Thus the two pages contradict each other as the chakra page implies every human has chakra. I think the correct interpretation of is to say Kaguya was the first human able to use chakra. Krikara (talk)Krikara
 * How does it contradict? She was the first human to have Chakra, now every human has Chakra. There always has to be a first one, hm? Seelentau 愛議 17:19, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * They do not contradict, as the sage was the first to be born with it. However, Madara does say that she is the first to be able to use it. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 17:21, September 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * They do contradict unless you want to assume that every Shinobi in the Naruto universe is related to Kaguya. And it has been proven in the past that not all shinobi are related to the Sage of the Six paths, so we know they aren't all related to Kaguya as well. There simply is no first person that has chakra, but rather everyone has chakra. It is just that people didn't know how to use it back then. Krikara (talk) 19:16, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think we should wait for raws. In any case, she would have to have been the first person to have chakra in the sense that she could actually mould and use it. Every living thing has chakra, they just didn't know how to use it before.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 17:49, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Nope, it was the Sennin who found out how to create it from those energies. His mum got the chakra as a whole. Seelentau 愛議 18:16, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * The translation says Rikudo Sennin was the first person to wield chakra. This means to use with skill. Kaguya had an excessive amount of chakra that made her godlike, but that doesn't mean she could wield it, meaning use ninjutsu, genjutsu, etc. She probably used chakra as raw power, like how Rock Lee utilizes his chakra. Krikara
 * No, it says that he was the first born with it. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 19:15, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, Ninjutsu wasn't even a term at that time. Seelentau 愛議 19:18, September 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * It says he was the first born who could wield chakra. Which is different from the first born with chakra. No one before him understood how to manipulate chakra.Krikara (talk) 19:20, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * He learned how to create chakra. His mother oviously knew how to use the chakra from the fruit. Seelentau 愛議 19:22, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

Maybe the fruit was one of knowledge, not power. She simply learned how to control chakra already in her body upon eating it. Otherwise it really doesn't make sense, because everyone would have to be descended from her or So6p, but that contradicts what Madara said and gives one less of a reason for the tree to take it "back"--Elveonora (talk) 21:02, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

I thought i read that Kaguya was the first human being to have chakra receiving it from the fruit of the world tree and that her sons were born with chakra because of that and Hagoromo transferred his chakra to the rest of humanity (like naruto transferred his nine tails chakra to everyone during the war, im pretty sure there was a reference in the manga regarding that) and teach them Ninshuu in order to bring them closer but instead they chose to use it offensively and therefore it became Ninjutsu.

Joshuagallent (talk) 05:06, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Rinnegan
Shouldn't she have the Rinnegan since she was the original human who used Chakra? Her son had to inherit his kekkei genkai from somewhere. --ElvinWindSword (talk) 21:51, September 15, 2013 (UTC)ElvinWindSword
 * No. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:00, September 15, 2013 (UTC)

All Kekkei Genkai has to be inherited from somewhere, the Sage's Rinnegan couldn't have appeared out of no where. Eventhough we can't add her as a user until it's confirmed in the manga, can't we state in the trivia section of the page that she could be the possible source of the Rinnegan? --ElvinWindSword (talk) 22:32, September 15, 2013 (UTC)ElvinWindSword


 * The first known person to have the Rinnegan is the Sage. The Rinnegan had to start somewhere, and he was the start. Your own logic.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 22:38, September 15, 2013 (UTC)

Sasuke is the first known user of Blaze Release and Hashirama Senju is the first known user of Wood Release but the Kekkei Genkai is stated as an Uchiha Clan Kekkei Genkai and Senju Clan Kekkei Genkai (respectively), so why are those blood line limits listed as properties of their user's clan? If one person's ability is extended to the rest of their relatives, why isn't Kayuga listed as a possible origin for the Rinnegan in the trivia section? --ElvinWindSword (talk) 23:55, September 15, 2013 (UTC)ElvinWindSword
 * Wrong. Sasuke is not the first known user on account of Tobirama knowing what a Kagutsuchi was. Sasuke is the only Uchiha we know that has used the technique, he's not the only user of it though. So your whle theory falls apart there.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 00:04, September 16, 2013 (UTC)

You are right about Sasuke but my theory still stands firm since Hashirama is the first known example of a wood release user, yet his whole clan is attributed to the blood line limit. So Kayuga being stated as a possible user in the trivia section is feasible since the Hagaromo gained his abilities from his mother (just like how all blood line limits are passed on: from your parents/ancestors)--ElvinWindSword (talk) 00:15, September 16, 2013 (UTC)ElvinWindSword
 * Wood Release is associated with the Senju because they became known as the Senju Clan of the Forest under Hashirama's command, him being the one to have it. Kaguya being listed as a possible user is not feasible. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:20, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hashirama's abilities were called a kekkei genkai hijutsu in any case, and while we could speculate why, it is not unheard of in the first place: Kimimaro had the Shikotsumyaku and none of his clan members did but it was a known kekkei genkai in the clan. Point of the matter is, we don't know the full story so we're not going to attribute the Rinnegan to Kaguya, not even in trivia speculation.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 00:27, September 16, 2013 (UTC)

Nobody should write any speculations...I remember quite well how some people wrote how Tobi aka Madara is alive due to his strong chakra...Then it turned out that most childish theory is right and all fancy theories about Madara are wrong... Until we have confirmed information about what Kaguya had of powers, nobody shall write any speculation, even if they are based on facts, because in this manga there are no facts until we have prof...Also stop writing all those Bible stuff...Fans don't come to narutopedia to read about religions...YamatoTakeru (talk) 19:01, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

Tenpenchii?
The panel on page 12 of chapter 670 shows that Kaguya is manipulating something similar to Tenpenchii. Does she count as a user? KazeKitsune (talk) 17:05, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't quite think she's a user, but I do think it's similar enough to bring up in the trivia section. I made a topic about that in that article's talk page earlier today. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:16, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

Species.
Is she a human though? She had "horns" and whatnot BEFORE consuming the fruit, so they aren't a "side effect" of eating it. Sage also said "She came TO your land from a far away place", and people called her the "Rabbit Goddess" or "The Demon".

Yes, the Sage is "human", but that side could come from his father or something. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 05:34, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

Are we sure it's not just some headdress? Well, her son obviously has real horns, but those might be because of him having been a jinchuuriki I suppose. She has this weird sex-appeal about her. Hot, but scary at the same time.--Elveonora (talk) 10:56, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

There is no front to this "headdress" nor do any of the images of her show anything under her hair to suggest it is either. When the Sage and his brother were fighting the beast, it shows that they both already have spiked protrusions out of their foreheads. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 11:25, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

It's pointless for us to speculate anyway. If we are ever told otherwise, we will note so--Elveonora (talk) 11:30, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

Do we even know if the image we have of her is from before she consumed the fruit? For all we know, she got the horns from eating the fruit, and her sons were born with it because she ate the fruit. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:49, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * As could be seen here she already had horns before the consumption of magical fructose--Elveonora (talk) 19:44, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Before 670, I would have said that was an elaborate headpiece. Also, please don't put such a convoluted link, it looks awful when editing. I changed the link to look much cleaner. Take a look. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:05, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, thanks I suppose... and I know how to link properly, I just don't have a problem with a longer link unlike "someone" ;) I mean, if there are like 3 ways to link something, why to use just one? ^_ For her species, she is definitely related to humans, since she gave birth to a man which conceived twins who gave birth to two human clans, so yeah. Although this is Japanese myths we are talking about where gods get born outta washing of nose and so on. I wouldn't be surprised if she turned out to be a demigod or something like that. But just a hypothetical question, if she turns out to be a god/demigod or if we learn that she "transcended" humanity after eating the fruit, how would we classify her?--Elveonora (talk) 22:26, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

It's interesting how similar her appearance is to the Shinigami IMO. Arrancar79 (talk) 22:49, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

"deceased"
How do we know that? We shouldn't just bet on the obvious that she has to have died of old age or something. Especially since it's been stressed how So6p was far above a mere human, with her having been even more powerful.--Elveonora (talk) 19:41, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * You know. I was going to argue against this because, holy titans that is just stupid. But is far less stressful to just let the stupid be.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 20:00, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Deceased. Deceased everywhere. Not to be rude, but dead is dead. Hagoromo himself stated to have died. Congratulations to him for somehow managing to live as floating chakra through the ages, but dead stays dead. There are those who say that Kaguya is the Shinigami now, but obviously that's speculation, just like saying that she isn't dead.--JOA20 (talk) 20:22, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except we were told So6p died, while we weren't about his mother. We simply can't just assume that "Oh, x character must be deceased because it was y time ago under z circumstance"--Elveonora (talk) 22:02, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah, that's your point. Well, it's a bit difficult. Was Kaguya immortal? No, or at least we don't know. She was talked about in past or present tense? Past, by both Hagoromo and Madara, and the former is way more reliable than the latter. So I guess she's dead. Or at least we can leave it to that until more info is added.--JOA20 (talk) 22:07, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Presumed Deceased is the way to go. That's because stating deceased sounds too certain, like if we were 100% undoubtedly sure, which we aren't until we are told she is dead or are shown her corpse in a coffin. I wouldn't be so paranoid under normal circumstances if we were talking about some ordinary person, but this chick has horns and ate magical god fruit.--Elveonora (talk) 22:15, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * She's dead. List her as such. Don't even entertain otherwise. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 22:23, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

Well, I rather us not list her as anything in that case if presumed deceased is stretching it too far.--Elveonora (talk) 22:29, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

The most recent chapter seems to indicate that she's alive as it's clear that she is the one communicating with Madara. It's rather interesting actually, can't do anything now until we learn more, but it's just something to keep in mind. Kenny U (talk) 16:20, April 17, 2014 (UTC)Kenny U

Name
In chapter #670 and according to the raws, her name is written in katakana (カグヤ) while in her first debut. Her name was written in hiragana (かぐや). So which one we choose to be her name? — Shakhmoot  (Talk) 20:42, March 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Bump :) — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 22:36, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

What did we do before in similar cases? I think the more frequent one should be used, while the less frequent put to trivia.--Elveonora (talk) 12:04, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

Only other case I can think of is Karura. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:28, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

I think it is to show Hagoromo's way of talking that moment. He changed it, so Naruto could understand him better. Narsha (talk) 18:04, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure that changing the script has that effect here, since they both say the same thing. This also happened with Sasuke saying Kagutsuchi at one point, and that meant nothing. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:27, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

kaguya clan
this might be off topic and probably is pure speculation...: if U look at kaguya from above [chapter 670, page 11 if I'm not mistaken] U C a hair crack in her head exactly identical to kimimaro from KAGUYA clan...and also she has the somewhat similar 2 dots above her eyes...I'm not saying their 100% definitely related cause it would B ridiculous but......care to mention it somewhere like trivia or somethin...or at least give it a thought...though I'm suspecting I MIGHT B having a lot scorn & laughter headed my way...& maybe angry complaints from the precious staff here :] --DARK ZER06 (talk) 23:34, March 29, 2014 (UTC) --DARK ZER06 (talk) 23:39, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

Well the two dots are her eyebrows, but it's actually a cultural note. Like Powdered wigs in the west, the eyebrows shaved to a dot was a cultural trait of nobility in Japan. We'll have to check the kanji or whatever, but it might be a decent note of trivia if a clan that bears her name and similar appearance happens to have appeared prior. It could point to some distant relation or a note towards her worship (Given she was considered both a goddess and a demon) --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 00:39, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

plus Kimimaro looks similar to Indra, and theres also a Hagoromo clan...--RexGodwin (talk) 00:48, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

seriously :/...wow...Ddn't know that kind of stuff...thanx 4 the info btw hawkI...and as U said she was called the rabbit goddess...and the first color of rabbit that strikes into mind is white...and clearly as shown in manga her hair is probably white...also resembles the hair color of kimimaro...just noticed these similarities & thought it might B good 2 mention them...--DARK ZER06 (talk) 00:53, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

I wanted to create a section in hagoromo clan's talk page but decided that it was unnecessary...however Cns rex brought it up here I should say that...yeah there's this clan too...and a member of them was found where both UCHIHA & SENJU were...it might also be worth mentioning in a trivia that these namings after kaguya or hagoromo may indicate that other clans beside uchiha 7 senju had ties to these members of the otsutsuki clan...--DARK ZER06 (talk) 00:59, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

Well in terms of the Hagoromo thing, they both have the same meaning, but use different characters, but both refer to the Feather Mantle, or Angel Raiment, whichever you wanna use from myth. The Kaguya clan and our Rabbit Goddess however, both use the exact same spelling. So that's spelling, same cultural grooming and similar hair parting. The Kaguya are also known for "Savage battle tactics and archaic values." Whilst Kaguya herself was called both Goddess and Demon and archaic, let's be honest, is just another word for old. So it could very well be that, as insane and misguided as they were, the Kaguya were originally worshipers of the lady herself, taking from her a sort of Survival of the fittest attitude and keeping a religious and fanatical adherence to this until their destruction. While that is just a theory, we don't have a lot of information, I think with what we do have, there's at least enough for a trivia note. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 01:02, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

Looking back at the chapter where it was discussed between Kabuto and Orochimaru, he said it was a long time since people like them, whose only purpose was to murder were of any use and that they attacked Kirigakure using brute force and without allies. Basically put, everything about them seems to point to them as being a clan from the Warring Clans period, like the Senju and Uchiha, who simply never allied themselves to the villages and continued to treat people outside the clan as enemies. And given the note of similarity to Indra, they could easily be a clan who descended on his side, believing him to be right, or even being a branch clan much like the the Uzumaki are to the Senju. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 01:19, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

The kanji of her given name and Kimimaro's clan are the same. So it is at least trivia worthy. But Hagoromo's given name and Hagoromo (clan) are written differently, they are unlikely to be related in any way.--Elveonora (talk) 12:03, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

considering she's already been proven an ancestor of Uchiha, Uzumaki, Senju, and Hyuga, as well as whatever clan Kinkaku and Ginkaku belong to, its not outside the realm of possibility to link a half dozen more bloodlines to her. Shadowfox337 (talk) 17:53, April 4, 2014 (UTC)

Well she does have the same hair and those 2 red dots above her eyebrows like Kimimaru does :) Joshuagallent (talk) 08:49, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya's strength
"praised his mother's might as superior to his own."

That's very presumptuous, seeing as "she was more powerful than anyone" could also imply before himself. Pesa123456789 (talk) 11:48, March 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * What's your point? ~IndxcvNovelist (talk 12:16, March 31, 2014 (UTC)

He could just be saying it sarcastically, like for example some characters fear there mother's like Shikamaru. Just thought id add that in there. Munchvtec (talk) 15:25, March 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not really... the context is important, he didn't have lol-like face. He is a serious folk--Elveonora (talk) 17:23, March 31, 2014 (UTC)

Point is, the wiki is supposed to stick with solid facts, and not guess at meaning of phrases that are open-ended. Pesa123456789 (talk) 09:10, April 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * There's nothing open-ended about what he said.--Elveonora (talk) 12:20, April 1, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya is stronger than Hagoromo, even with Juubi sealed in him. 671 pretty much proves that. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 15:56, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Sharingan?
Who added the Sharingan to Kaguya's profile? Hagoromo said in no uncertain terms she had the Byakugan and the Rinnegan. There was no mention of the Sharingan, which if we are to believe Kakashi from Pt I, is a mutation of the Byakugan (this has all but been expressly confirmed).--Reliops (talk) 11:03, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's confirmed in the manga. :) ~IndxcvNovelist (talk 11:05, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

I stand corrected. Just got my hands on a proper scan.--Reliops (talk) 11:06, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

It seems she was the first Sharingan user and Indra was the second. She was also the Byakugan Originator. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 14:49, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that's sharingan, as much as it's the juubi's eye. THat's why Hagoromo said powers of the sharingan rather than the sharingan. It's a similiar yet diffrent dojutsu. If we're to consider this a sharingan, then we should give the Juubi sharingan as well, as the two are the exact same eyes.
 * I'm all for that. We should probably wait for the raw to see the precise wording, but I think it's pretty clear both 9 tomoe eyes count as Sharingan. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:26, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think this picture: File:Ten-Tails Eye.svg should be used as Kaguya's sharingan.—Entondark (talk) 23:36, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

But doesn't she just have the power of the Sharingan and Byakugan? so she shouldn't really be labeled as having those doujutsu; right? having the power and actually having the doujutsu are 2 different things--Deathmailrock (talk) 08:25, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Haven't you seen the big third eye on her forehead and the white eyes in her eye sockets? Seelentau 愛議 08:34, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

I believe that her third eye is both the Rinnegan and Sharingan, not just the latter... it has the rings, not to mention it would be a logical fallacy for her son to have "final stage" of the eye of an literal creator and originator of everything within Narutoverse--Elveonora (talk) 09:59, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * It has the rings, just like the normal Sharingan has, too. It was called Sharingan by Hagoromo, why arguing against that? Seelentau 愛議 10:56, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * I know what it was called, but it's illogical and contradictory. The Shinju and Kaguya having Sharingan means it came first, contradicting the Sharingan being a deviation from the Rinnegan. Now the Rinnegan is suddenly a deviation from the Sharingan? What's up with that?--Elveonora (talk) 11:33, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know. I mean, it'S obvious that Kaguya's Sharingan is not the one we've known until now. It's like a triple Sharingan or so... but we can't go and say she didn't have the Sharingan, when the manga states that she had. Seelentau 愛議 11:53, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * But you must agree that it's weird. So it's "Sharingan" > devolves into Rinnegan > devolves into Sharingan again? ._.--Elveonora (talk) 12:02, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Mutations are always a tricky concept, so to say that one devolves into the other is a bit inaccurate. as we know we have the two tomoe sharingan, the three, the mangekyo, the perfect mangekyo achieved by taking another's eyes, and the rinnegan is recreated by infusing wood style and/or Ashura's chakra with a perfect mangekyo and/or Indra's chakra. to say that Rinnegan is the highest stage is just a preconception, Kaguya being the highest ancestor on the line with this mutation could have easily had both the Sharingan and Rinnegan aspects of the eye active at both times, which we saw Madara unable to do aside from using Susano'o with the Rinnegan.  I'm more interested now with whether Kaguya had another child for whom the byakugan was passed down, although, this does explain how the myth of the Sharingan being a descendant of the Byakugan would get started, since it would appear Kaguya had Byakugan before eating the fruit that granted her chakra and the traits of the Ten-tails, including what seems to be this absolute Sharingan. Shadowfox337 (talk) 18:03, April 4, 2014 (UTC)

Interesting. In my opinion Kaguya had to have had chakra before eating the fruit if she had the Byakugan, otherwise what point would there be in an eye that can see chakra?--Elveonora (talk) 18:17, April 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * The eye has other abilities including beyond 20/20 vision and 359 degree x-ray vision. since blood limits are genetic its highly plausible they were dormant without chakra to stimulate them, otherwise there wouldn't be all the lava style and magnet style users from different regions, and sharingan and rinnegan do not allow one to mimic blood limits meaning they would have a different origin root. she's also seen with the byakugan before the third eye appears in her forehead. This revelation has also given me considerable cause to expect some BS importance elevation in Hinata, the story has had more random plot twists than M Night Shyamalans movie career. kudos though for finally resolving the "sharingan descends from byakugan" plot hole. Shadowfox337 (talk) 20:33, April 4, 2014 (UTC)

I dunno; I mean having the power of something and actually having something are 2 different things..... what if those eyes in her sockets are just regular eyes and it's that 3rd eye that could see from a distance? (like Hiei) so that 3rd Eye had all of the powers....

and it never really said that the Sharingan descended from the Byakugan, ever.... it said that people WONDERED if it came from the Byakugan.... it was never stated as a fact but a theory that some people had in series and it was never stated to be a fact.... and doesn't the Byakugan also use chakra?

And maybe Sharingan is just the generic name for the eyes (so the Rinnengan are Sharingan, just a higher class Sharingan than the common ones)..... but it might not really be the Sharingan... maybe the Sage was just saying that that Jubi eye on her forehead was able to see like the Byakugan and Sharingan, but that doesn't really mean it actually was the 2 eyes.....

like how a Platypus is like a duck and a bear, but it isn't a duck or a bear......--Deathmailrock (talk) 01:55, April 5, 2014 (UTC)

Except her normal eyes lacked pupil's. there was no wondering about it, the in story tale of sharingan being descent of byakugan was mythology. and since we've seen that byakugan are a static inheritance instead of some have it some don't like the sharingan, the byakugan would more likely be a genetic inheritance whereas the sharingan would be a chakra based inheritance.

also, the platypus is still an animal kingdom anomaly, being an egg laying mammal with attributes of a duck and a Beaver (not Bear). Shadowfox337 (talk) 05:25, April 7, 2014 (UTC)

No Pupils don't automatically mean it's a Byakugan.... I'm not saying it isn't a Byakugan, but it might not be and that just might be how her eyes are..... it could still be that her third eye or "sharingan" might have had that power instead.... basically, the wiki is putting a theory as a fact..... maybe it was just the powers and her unique eye could be an actual different eye..... also, the Jubi's eye (which looks exactly like her 3rd eye) was able to see from a long distance just like the Byakugan..... so maybe the white eye's of the Hyuga come from her having white eyes..... but that doesn't mean her white eye's actually had that power PS. the platypus thing was just an example (the bear part was a joke in reference to a commercial for lunchables) --Deathmailrock (talk) 05:56, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hagoromo clearly said that his mother had both the Byakugan and the Sharingan.--JOA20 (talk) 06:45, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * The newest chapter has revealed that it isn't the Sharingan, but in fact Rinnegan. Kaguya, Sasuke and the Juubi now have the very same eye pattern, and Madara called that pattern Rinnegan. While it's obviously not the standard Rinnegan, it did get called that. While in the flashback there was only mention of Kaguya being able to use Sharingan powers, not literally having the Sharingan. It's highly likely that the Juubi eye (and Kaguya's) was the ultimate form of the Rinnegan, allowing the use of Sharingan, MS and Rinnegan powers. We'll have to wait for clarification, though.

He did not clearly say that she had both the Sharingan & Byakugan; it was read in all the translations as having the power of both of them. And Madara with his rinnengan was able to do everything that he was able to do with the Sharingan & EMS. Basically, it could be said that she only had a super powerful Rinnengan.--Deathmailrock (talk) 04:46, April 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * Rinnegan can't do everything. Madara reverted to the Mangekyo to cast genjutsu. The only ability we know for sure both the Sharingan and Rinnegan have is seeing chakra. (Madara can cast Susanoo without any eyes, so I would't count that.)--BeyondRed (talk) 05:02, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Hyūga origin
Whats up with stating her to have been progeny of all Hyuga? I don't feel like war-editing at the moment. We don't know if she was the first person with Byakugan. For all we know, she could have had parents and siblings who's descendants eventually came to be known as Hyuga.--Elveonora (talk) 16:06, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * But we don't. We know that every Hyūga is born with the Byakugan. Kaguya had it. If anything, word it differently. Something like "Kaguya is the earliest known predecessor of the Hyūga". Still conveys what we know, and not technically incorrect in any way. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:27, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Kaguya_%C5%8Ctsutsuki?curid=117038&diff=866490&oldid=866481--Elveonora (talk) 16:28, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * It was also said that she came to the continent from a foreign land for the fruit. While its plausible relatives could have followed her it is unlikely, I'd bet just about everything that Kishimoto fully intends for her to be the origin of Byakugan as well, at least on the story's main continent. Shadowfox337 (talk) 13:28, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Doesn't matter what was unlikely or not. It's speculation at this point so it shouldn't be mentioned or workers like that.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 13:38, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Well i think its plausible that seeing as Kaguya's son Hagoromo was born with one of her Dojutsu's aka the Rinnegan that her other son was born with the Byakogan and the Hyuga clan started there. Kaguya and Hyuga do sound familiar lol. Joshuagallent (talk) 08:39, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Rinnegan confirmed
As of the last chapter Sasuke has obtained the same pattern in one of his eyes and it was identified as a Rinnegan. I think that confirms this unique eye pattern is a mix of Sharingan and Rinnegan. Shadow Abyss (talk) 14:25, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except it was called Sharingan in Kaguya's case and Rinnegan in Sasuke's. I think we must not be seeing the whole picture yet.--Elveonora (talk) 15:17, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * It makes it hard to document to say the least. It almost seems as if they're using the two names interchangeably at this point. I'm not entirely sure where the information should be added.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:20, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, as stated by both Ultimate (I believe? Or was it Foxie?) and Seel, having Rinnegan also means having the Sharingan. But that doesn't explain why:


 * Sage had just the Rinnegan, unless he also had the Sharingan (like Madara) but just wasn't shown using it
 * Madara has both but has to switch between the two
 * Sasuke has both merged in one eye and doesn't have to switch

The manga is getting more confusing each chapter.--Elveonora (talk) 15:24, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

I would think the most recent information would take precedence also Kaguya's eye on her forehead was never directly called the Sharingan. it was only stated that Kaguya possesed the power of the Sharingan as well as the Byakugan.

Viz translated it like this. "Mother possed the power of Sharingan as well as Byakugan She user"

So I would think it would be pretty logical too list Kaguya and the Juubi as users of the Rinnegan since it was given an official name in the most recent chapter.--Thdyingbreed (talk) 18:42, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Kaguya's was called Sharingan. Sasuke's was called Rinnegan. That's all we know. So Kaguya gets listed for Sharingan and Sasuke's for Rinnegan until we know more. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 19:40, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

They have the exact same eye it isn't possible for one too be a Rinnegan and the other just a Sharingan and it would look very contradictory too have too people who possess the same eye and only have one person listed as a user for the Dojutsu.

All retirate it again Kaguya's Dojutsu was never directly called the Sharingan prior too this chapter it was only stated it had the power of the Sharingan.

No translation refers too it as the Sharingan only that it possess's the power of one even MS/MP that are known for there awful mistranslations got that part right.

Which we've seen is possible even with a normal given how Madara is able to use his Susanoo with his Rinnegan and was able to switch back to his EMS at one point.

This chapter we were given a name for it and that is the Rinnegan this really shouldn't be that hard too put two and two together and figure out that it is the Rinnegan.--Thdyingbreed (talk) 20:28, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Eh... every Rinnegan is a Sharingan, so Hagoromo's statement wasn't wrong. • Seelentau 愛議 21:04, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

It was a Sharingan but it's not currently a Sharingan anymore Kishi even made a point of reinforcing that when Madara stated too Obito that his Rinnegan isn't a Sharingan anymore it's a Rinnegan they are distinct Dojutsu's.

We know what it is now which is a Rinnegan and as such Kaguya should be listed a user just like how Sasuke who posses the same eye is.--Thdyingbreed (talk) 03:08, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Actually the sage did not state kaguya had sharingan, he actually stated that she had the power of sharingan, not sharingan itself. I think the user above has point. And off subject Madara doesnt have to exactly switch between sharingan and rinnegan to use their abilities. The manga shows that madara does have to activate his rinnegan to use its abilities, but he doesnt have switch to sharingan to use its abilities, he summons susanoo when his rinnegan was activated. Another note is that madara has been shown to use sharingan abilities without physically having his eyes, such as summoning his susanoo without actually having his eyes, however it does show that he does physically need and has to activate his rinnegan to use it.--Ankhael (talk) 04:11, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya was said to use both "dōryuko", with is essentially a synonym to dōjutsu, meaning she had Sharingan and Byakugan, no "she had the power of the X, but not the X per se". Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 05:33, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Im pretty sure Kaguya's 3rd eye is in fact a Rinnegan not Sharingan seeing as it looks the same as the the Ten Tails eye and also Sasukes Rinnegan. Seeing as it is the final form of the sharingan and possesses all of its techniques it would make sense that she would have the original Dojustu seeing as the sharingan is a watered down version of it/earlier stage of its development. I think in the manga when they stated she also possesed the Sharingan they were just referring to the techniques tied to it aka the Tsukuyomi. Also it stated that other than the Shinju's eye hers is the only other one to be able to cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi (thx to her Byakugan being able to amplify its distance and power) therefore her Dojutsu would have to at least be the Rinnegan or a more advanced verion of it. And again hers looks just like Sasukes and the Mangekyō Sharingan does have different appearances with different users so it wouldnt surprise me if the Rinnegan did too. Joshuagallent (talk) 05:45, April 17, 2014 (UTC) Joshuagallent (talk) 08:43, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Except hers was called Sharingan. And Madara's Rinnegan looked exactly the same as Hagoromo's, so no on the Mangekyo like variation between users. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 05:58, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

But Someone posted earlier stating the manga said she had the "power" of the sharingan not actually stating that she physically had one? Joshuagallent (talk) 08:11, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Again: Every Rinnegan is a Sharingan. Every Mangekyō Sharingan is a Sharingan, too. We knew that the Rinnegan is the peak of the Sharingan since foREVer now, there's really no problem here. Kaguya had the Rinnegan and thus the Sharingan, Sasuke has the Rinnegan and thus the Sharingan. Simple as that. • Seelentau 愛議 08:13, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Agreed thats what i was saying lol Joshuagallent (talk) 08:44, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

So ignoring which was called which, it's cool and all Seel, but still:
 * why did Kaguya and the Shinju's and Sasuke's "Rinnegan" have the Sharingan tomoe but Hagoromo and Madara's don't? Also does that mean we list Kaguya and Shinju as Rinnegan users as well and Hagoromo as a Sharingan user?--Elveonora (talk) 10:44, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

I think some need to clearly go back and read chapter 671 page 8. The Sage clearly states "My Mother, beside the Byakugan, Possess's the Sharingan's "power". It was a gruesome eye "power", and she used it on people. In that statment He is clearly and only referring to the "power" of sharingan hence (gruesome power) Eternal Tsukyomi not sharingan itself. She used the gruesome power of sharingan --> eternal tsukyomi. Look at the characteristics of her third eye and how it looks. You cannot ignore those details of her eye. If it was a sharingan and i mean specifically "sharingan" like uchiha characteristics then it would have looked like a sharingan. Sure i get the concept you have above, saying that rinnegan is a sharingan, but that doesnt exactly apply in all cases, maybe in kaguya case. Kishimoto wouldn't be that off to say that sasuke who clearly has a rinnegan with the same characteristics as kaguya's third eye, is rinnegan, and then say in kaguya's case its only sharingan, that would not make a lick of sense. Kaguya has the rinnegan, the didnt specifically say that she physically had sharingan..--Ankhael (talk) 12:13, April 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * "Every Rinnegan is a Sharingan."
 * So, Nagato has a Sharingan?--~Ultimate Supreme  15:20, April 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * Being that Nagato's Rinnegan was originally Madara's.....Umishiru (talk) 15:23, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * I would say yes, but until we know more, that statement only applies to the Tomoe Rinnegan. It was called both, so it is both. • Seelentau 愛議 15:45, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah he only meant that she had the power of sharingan. --Ankhael (talk) 16:22, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah... no. Sorry dude, but just... no. • Seelentau 愛議 16:23, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think life will just be easier if we keep them character specific, at least until the volume is released. Kaguya's is a Sharingan, Sasuke's is a Rinnegan. Party happy dance.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:54, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

say wha??, really Lol, but the manga states that she has the power of sharingan Lol,. Oh alright I forget how naruto wiki is now Lol, speculate until the next chapter reveals what it sometimes already reveal. We'll wait on this one. It's not like I can do anything anyways LOL party happy dance!!!--Ankhael (talk) 23:04, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Since people are so intent on having Kaguya listed as a Sharingan user why don't we just list her as both since the Rinnegan evolves from the Sharingan.

Either way it doesn't change the fact that the Dojutsu that Sasuke/Kaguya/Juubi all share was called a Rinnegan and she should be listed a user as a Rinnegan because of that.--Thdyingbreed (talk) 01:20, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

She had Sharingan and Rinnegan. But she was using the Sharingans powers with her Tomoe Rinnegan hence Hagoromo talking about the eye and Infinite Tsukuyomi at the same time... that is the only logical thing, especially when the same eye is in Sasuke yet it was BLATANTLY called Rinnegan by Madara, when talking about the eye directly. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 02:03, April 20, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya has Sharingan and Byakugan. Her eye powers were called Sharingan and Byakugan. NOT Rinnegan. Something that is a big problem with people arguing stuff is that lots of people come here repeating the words of the scanlations. Scanlations have mistakes. We see them week in week out. If they didn't, we wouldn't nearly as many discussions when a chapter comes out. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:45, April 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * But it WASN'T called SHARINGAN the text said POWER OF THE SHARINGAN. Basically, it NEVER said that she HAD THE SHARINGAN but it's POWER. That is an important difference. Even when you translate the raws, it was POWER OF THE SHARINGAN. She was never actually stated to have it.


 * Having it's POWER and having the actual object are 2 different things.--Deathmailrock (talk) 19:24, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

What are you, slow? You clearly haven't been paying attention to any of discussions about this topic. The Japanese raw stated that Kaguya had the Sharingan eye itself, the English scan was a mistake. We follow what the raw states and not the scans for they make mistakes. Unless it is explicitly stated otherwise that Kaguya has the Rinnegan, stop trying to bring up a debate that is already dead. WindStar7125 (talk) 19:37, April 24, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125


 * Did anyone in the discussion state that she had the sharingan in the raw?Not that I read..... Did you actually translate the raw?--Deathmailrock (talk) 02:28, April 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * I did. She has the power of the Sharingan. This was said while an eye was shown which resembles the Sharingan, only with more Tomoe. You don't say that someone has the power of x, while showing something completely unrelated to X. I don't understand why you're so desperate about her not having the Sharingan, but it doesn't change anything. It's not our fault if people lack basic comprehension skills. It was called Sharingan with nine Tomoe and in Kaguya's head, it was called Rinnegan with (most likely) six Tomoe, while in Sasuke's head. That's how we're gonna keep it until new information comes up. It doesn't matter if you like that or not, you can sit alone in your room all day drawing eyes and calling them Rinnegan, I don't care. But please don't let your personal rage flow into wiki-related discussions. • Seelentau 愛議 02:39, April 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * So that eye has the power of the sharingan......... that eye having the power of the sharingan doesn't mean that it actually is the sharingan..... showing that eye was so that we knew what it looked like and the words were stating it's power not it's name...... It's not personal rage, it wasn't called a sharingan.... it's like a snack, just because it tastes like an apple doesn't mean it is an apple.... power of is different from actually being that thing.... because Naruto was said to look like Minato, does that mean he is Minato..... that terms power of seems to compare rather than name. It's because this is a wiki why this issue is so important. It looks like the rinnegan with tomeo--Deathmailrock (talk) 03:25, April 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'm putting a stop to this. Seel translated the Raws. It was not called the "power of the Rinnegan", but, in fact, the "power of the Sharingan". Sharingan is what it was called and you can deny it all day, in bold, italics, underlines, and in rainbow colors, for all I care, but the matter is settled. Kaguya's was called Sharingan, Sasuke's Rinnegan. So that's what they, individually, are. That is the end of the discussion, because, frankly, its getting out of hand. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 04:25, April 26, 2014 (UTC)

To add to this, I'd like to point out again that we're in the final phase of an ongoing manga. Therefore, inconsistencies likes this are to be expected. Only because we call her eye a Sharingan and Sasuke's eye a Rinnegan now, doesn't mean that it won't ever change. We have very little information about the recent revelations, so even if we're not completely right with what we're stating, you aren't, either. No one right now besides Kishimoto knows the bigger picture. That's why discussions like this aren't helpful to the wiki as they were, say, a year ago. Most of what we knew has been overthrown for good, yet people try to fit recent revelations in what they know already. This leads to even more confusion, which is why I repeatedly said to wait with adding unnecessary speculation. Long story short, what Fox said. • Seelentau 愛議 09:39, April 26, 2014 (UTC)

what has become of wiki, not to offend anyone but are you guys choosing to be stupid? I'm not being funny here even though it's a little humorous, I'm actually wondering how can you misread a statement from the manga or any reading material for that matter. Let me give an example here and some answers choices, let say I stated that "I had the "power of Naruto"... A. Does that makes me naruto? Or B. Does it just mean I had the powers/abilities of naruto?--Ankhael (talk) 22:02, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

Go read my first comment in this topic again. If you still don't get it, go read it again. Your argument fails because it hangs on a mistranslation. The term used for what Kaguya had is a synonym to "dōjutsu", and has been used in the manga at least as far back as Five Kage Summit arc. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:12, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

Ah the old so call translation mistake. Except every website that shows the manga even naruto viz, which is a very reliable website even translate that she was said to have the power of sharingan. A similar situation emerge about Sasuke's eye. Naruto Viz translated that madara referred Sasuke's eye as the "one eyed rinnegan" which is pretty strange. But it wouldn't long before the manga reveals the name of the "third eye" on madara and kaguya's forehead. Im pretty sure the next chapter is going to give the name of that third eye.--Ankhael (talk) 22:44, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

You're not reading what I'm saying. I'm talking about the term 瞳力, "dōryuko". Hagoromo uses it to describe Kaguya's "eye power", which means both the Byakugan and the Sharingan. The same term has been used at least as far back the Five Kage Summit. It's been used interchangeably with dōjutsu, referring to both the eye and the jutsu used with it. The chapter says he used those dōryuko to cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:49, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

I dont see how that term confirms what her third eye is except for describing the eye's power. And know now that madara possess the same third eye, i guessing your going assume he has a sharingan on his forehead.--Ankhael (talk) 04:14, May 21, 2014 (UTC)


 * This is really getting tiresome. Please troll elsewhere. You've been told that it will be called Sharingan, as per the literal translation of the manga, until the tankoban comes out and either corrects it or confirms it. Period. End of argument. Good night. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 05:46, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

alright I will go alone with the ignorance(not knowing info correctly) for now. :) the third eye on Kaguya and Madara forehead that has the ability to cast infinite tsukuyomi is "called" sharingan, "ignoring" all the official translated mangas across the Web. :) until the true term for the eye is revealed farewell my naruto wiki theorist :)--Ankhael (talk) 07:52, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

Okay what is the deal with the troll that keeps adding Rinnegan back to Kaguya, after we all agreed that it was not confirmed? The manga translations said she only possessed sharingan and Byakugan not a Rinnegan. Also someone blocked the textual editing of the page to prevent the removal of the Rinnegan addition. --ElvinWindSword (talk) 19:18, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Latest chapter called Madara's third eye a Rinnegan, Kaguya's was the same as his is, so unless you want to be the guy with a tinfoil hat, there's no doubt. There's a difference between being cautious and paranoid.--Elveonora (talk) 21:03, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

Wood Release?
Did I miss some chapters?Faust-RSI (talk) 11:43, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Fixed.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 11:51, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

actions and intentions
There has been some debate about if did she whenever attempt to mass-bondage the whole world in order for the tree to have bore another fruit or not. I wouldn't like this get neglected, so how do we proceed? Hagoromo is unlikely to would have known that such a thing were possible if it hadn't happened.--Elveonora (talk) 17:58, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Debate is good and all, but we work with what is stated: Hagoromo said she did it to bring force peace,so we have to say it was for forced peace not to get another fruit.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 18:02, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then what about the fruit, roots and cocoons shown in Hagoromo's "flashback"? It was about Kaguya--Elveonora (talk) 18:13, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Why would she want to create another fruit though - she already ate one. I'm not saying that she didn't have evil intentions - she was probably corrupted by power either way but that might have been a fact rather than a statement of her intent. So we have to wait for more info.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 18:22, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, my whole point is that unless Hagoromo was stating and writing about hypothetical scenarios or could foresee future events, the flashback stuff and what the tablet says must have happened. According to that, someone made an attempt at fruit creation, approached the moon and received third eye etc.--Elveonora (talk) 20:39, May 24, 2014 (UTC)

Regarding the Byakugan
In the "Dōjutsu" column, why is the part "(with the exception of a small blind spot at the upper thoracic vertebrae)" posted.

I don't think it has been mentioned in the story yet that her Byakugan also had the same weakness as the present era Byakugan user have. Also Neji himself pointed out that the weakness could easily be over come (by simply focusing Chakra to that area). Considering that Kaguya could very well be the source of the Hyūga Clan's Byakugan, it can also be assumed that her Byakugan may have actually been much more powerful than the present day Byakugan, and could have been different as well (considering that she even ate the 'Chakra Fruit').

So, i believe that it would be better to remove that part since its actually not confirmed and we just can't assume her Byakugan to be the same as the other members of the present era Hyūga Clan.

But if this has been confirmed through some other source then it ok and please ignore my post.--Supratim1986 (talk) 19:41, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * It doesn't need to be confirmed. It has been confirmed that is the weakness of the Byakugan and it is speculation to assume that she didn't have any weakness to her's as well. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:43, May 24, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya's Will
So Black Zetsu is apparently the will of Kaguya. Which doesn't make much sense. Then you have the Sage's flashback speech where he states that Kaguya's massive ego resided in her power. So that leads me to two options: Kaguya's disembodied will latched onto Black Zetsu because he, being nothing more than Madara's will, gained her power and with that power comes her will. OR Madara is an idiot and somehow poured Kaguya's will, that was chillin inside him for some reason, into Black Zetsu. I doubt any of this can go into the article proper, but I figured we should get this out the way now.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 12:22, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * I doubt we can get this out of the way right now. It's just one more unclear statement we can add to the list. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:28, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * It wasn't likely meant literary. BZ may be Kaguya's will just as much Hidan was Jashin's. BZ presumably finds Kaguya more sympathetic than his own master--Elveonora (talk) 12:32, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * I highly doubt that. Highly. Highly. Doubt that. Just wait until the next chapter. It will undoubtably be explained. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:21, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

Debut
Hi! Excuse me if I'm mistaken, but isn't her debut in the chapter 646. on page 7?

--KPeti01 (talk) 17:41, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * You have a point there, she is mentioned by name and a mural depicting her is shown. I think you're right, but let's see about a second opinion. Atrix471 (talk) 17:58, May 28, 2014 (UTC)