Forum:Origin of the Chakra Receivers/Discussion

This is a discussion page for the forum topic Origin of the Chakra Receivers

Opinions
With all that's above stated, here is my opinion. The ability to create the Chakra Receivers come from the user of the Outer Path. Not Will Materialisation at all. My reasoning for that would be Nagato, who is also a Rinnegan user. It's no coincidence that all three users of the Dōjutsu, we've seen thus far, can create receivers at their discretion. With that said, the current definition of Will Materialisation, is correct. It is the actual act of infusing your will into a person or object, not the creation of the receivers. So how do i plan to dispute Madara's quote about a receiver being his will given physical form? Well, not only was their just one rod that he was addressing, but that line could at best be vague, given all we know about them now. Even Obito created a "rod" substitute with his Ten-Tails Chakra Weapons. Madara could have just meant that one specific rod, is the rod he chose to place his will in. Well, now that this is up in the air, what do you think? KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 18:43, August 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * It is Will Materialization. Plain and simple. No? Well, here's Madara's quote from the flashback chapter; "These black rods are my will made manifest. Use them when you use the Rikūdo no Jutsu." They are the user's will in a physical form. There's really not much else to it. Obito can create them, and apparently, so can Nagato. It doesn't have anything to do with the Rinnegan, or the Ten-Tails. The user can just solidify their will into a physical form. Before making opinions, it'd probably be best of you to go back and read the chapter in question. I do that so that I don't overlook things such as that; things can easily be forgotten if you don't read up on them occassionally. Suggesting that the Chakra Receivers are not Madara's will is ignorance of the canon. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 19:57, August 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Edit: Mangapanda has a good version of the quote; "That black pole is my will made into a physical shape. Use it when you use the Rikūdo no Jutsu." And for those that need the chapter, just in case we want Seel to check the RAWs, it is Naruto chapter 606. Page number is 16 in the Mangapanda translation. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 20:02, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

Here's my opinion on it. I think that the chakra receivers, ten tails chakra weapons, and will materialization are all one technique, used on different levels. Madara was as far as we know the original user (though the sage probably did use it) and he taught obito, and obito taught nagato. Madara was the more powerful user, as he naturally developed the rinnegan, has hashi's dna, and has powerful chakra. Then came obito, then nagato. This changed when Obito became the ten tails jinchuuriki. The level of shape transformation increased. I do however, think that this and the ability to negate all ninjutsu are two different techniques, based on the fact that he also applied it to his own body. He combined the two to make it appear to be some kind of dust release on steroids. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 20:13, August 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * In no way are the three techniques related. Also, let's keep in mind one thing...during the debut of the Gedo Mazo, one rod produted from it's stomach, which then extended and multiplied...so we know that the rods can extend and multiply from a single source...also Nagato never made use of the rods prior to that, and his Rinnegan had already developed for quite some time...and there is also Madara's quote to Obito, graciously provided by @TTF. That shows that the rods are an outside item. Another detail...if Obito could use said technique, why did he fell prey to Madara's control? How did Madara managed to remote control and fire three rods from Obito's body to block one of Sasuke's Susanoo arrows. Now we know that the rods act as both receivers and transmiters, allowing one to channel chakra (and even techniques) from one point to another...so Obito could have simply infused the rods with chakra, fired them to serve as marking points to produde the barrier. Why would Madara teach a technique that could allow his student to double cross him and use him as puppet? It made more sense if he'd simply placed the rods into Obito's body, when he was fixing it (Obito was unconscious, so i doubt he'd put much of a fight). Nagato gained use of the rods when he was stabbed by the Gedo Mazo. Thus, both could use the rods, generate more 'from the pre-existing ones in their bodies...but they could not control people with them. Another detail against @MangekyoSasuke's theory, is that Madara's ability was never decided as being Yin_Yang. Darksusanoo (talk) 20:40, August 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * Dark, its already a consensus that Obito can use them. You were probably not present during the second discussion, but look on the relevant talk pages. The new cleaned versions show Obito forming the rods out of his black orbs. He can create them. This is old news and not debatable. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:04, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

So, what i'mgetting from this so far is that Nagato, Obito, and Madara can all use the Will Materialisation Technique. And that it's not an Outer Path technique, b/c it's teachable (and Madara didnt have his own Rinnegan in his eye sockets). Therefore, it's just different levels. So we might have to add all 3 as users, and list their respective uses of the technique. So as far as we're concerned, everyone but Madara,only created chakra receivers. Madara himself, created life as well as the latter. I'm up for that idea. KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 21:47, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

Wait, wait, wait... slow down TTF. First about the said quote, did Madara say "this rod" or "these rods" ? Second, yes, it seems Obito can create rods, but I wouldn't say right away it's will materialization. Madara's case is vague, we in fact didn't see him make the rod, only it coming down from statue and hash and him commenting on will made physical. Still possible he simply touched an already existing rod with his will. Not saying you are wrong tho, but then why would the rods have been in Gedo Mazo and why would it pierce Nagato with them etc.?--Elveonora (talk) 23:30, August 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * Out of curiosity, how did you come to the conclusion that the Rinnegan is not apart of it? Every person who has shown the ability to create it had the Rinnegan. Hell, when Naruto felt Pain's chakra going into him, the image we saw was the Rinnegan. When Tobi binded the Tailed Beasts to the jinchuriki, they were under his control via the Outer Path and the Rinnegan.
 * I'm really just curious how the Rinnegan is not apart of this. And remember, Madara showed Tobi the Rinnegan in his genjutsu; the same place where he can do whatever he wants so saying he doesn't have the Rinnegan there is moot.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 01:22, August 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * First i believe it's due to the fact that it may be Yin-Yang based, though that's still in check...second, when Madara displayed and explained use of the rods, he'd already given his Rinnegan to Nagato. Darksusanoo (talk) 02:03, August 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * And as I've said, Madara showed the ability the rods while he was using the Limited Tsukuyomi. He wouldn't need the Rinnegan to show the technique in a dimension where he can do whatever he wants. (And don't read to much in me calling it Limited. I took the movie and ran with it.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 02:06, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

Elve, he said that the rods (plural sorry for not clarifying that. check the chapter for proof. I provided chapter and page above) were his will made physical in form. Not that he imbued it with his will, but that they were his will. Obito being able to create them, is then, him making his will manifested. The rods themselves are the user's will in physical form. That said, I also agree with Ultimate. Its more a Rinnegan skill than anything else. Its not a Ten-Tails skill, because Madara and Nagato wouldn't have been able to make them without it. I believe it is directly tied to the Outer Path, as Tobi was seen using the Outer Path chains and abilities with them through the entire fight with the jinchūriki, Naruto, B, Kakashi, and Gai. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 03:03, August 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Thats what I was thinking. I don't know why nobody ever considered the Outer Path when we've seen them used in almost every Outer Path ability.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 03:17, August 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Outer path, not rinnegan. Can be used with rinnegan or sharingan/wood release combo. Otherwise, right on the mark. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 03:19, August 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * Uh... Outer Path is a technique used by the Rinnegan. And no, it is definitely a Rinnegan-related technique. All three users are only seen creating them after they've awakened/implanted the Rinnegan. And Madara even said they were best used when using the Six Paths Technique ("Rikūdo no Jutsu"). Wood Release doesn't even play a role in this in the slightest. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 03:23, August 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * You're forgetting when Obito made them when he activated his Mangekyo Sharingan. You're also forgetting Madara said he could use the technique with just a sharingan and Hashirama's dna, and then using it without his rinnegan. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 04:38, August 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Youre confused with Madara addressing the control over the Gedo Mazo Statue. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 04:42, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

So basically we're saying that Will Materialisation is an Outer path Technique that Madara, Obito, and Nagato can use? If we do that, then we should definitely have a uses section to clarify who did what. KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 04:35, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

Wait, so people (ultimate3) suddenly agree with my old notion that the whole Madara dimension thingy was Limited Tsukuyomi related? Too late again... but now, I must disagree with myself, I no longer think that. Limited/Infinite Tsukuyomi creates "real" stuff, the genjutsu Madara used on Obito was nothing but ocular illusion, not unlike anything else and possibly some memory replay as well. Since Madara no longer had Rinnegan at the time, it doesn't play role in the rods' origins. Furthermore, there simply isn't enough evidence for either scenario... while them being related to Outer Path is very logical, that doesn't mean they don't come from Ten-Tails. After all, Madara nicknamed it "Demonic Statue of the Outer Path" and we saw LONG rod/s coming from its navel. For now, it's safest to keep them as the Ten-Tails' invention. @Foxie, I see some flip-flopping, originally, you were like: "omg guyz here evidence, rods came from black orb related to ten-tails!!!" and suddenly it's the Rinnegan? Sigh...--Elveonora (talk) 08:37, August 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * And you are forgetting that none of them, not a soul, had access to the Ten-Tails' chakra until it was revived. How it even became concluded that it is a Ten-Tails ability is beyond my thoughts, because as stated, we first saw them used as part of the Outer Path. We saw them again as used by the Outer Path. Every person who has used them (AND NOT IN A GENJUTSU, THIS PART IS IMPORTANT) had the Rinnegan.
 * Tobi making receivers with his Ten-Tails chakra doesn't all of a sudden turn it into a Ten-Tails technique, the man as also been shown making various other weapons.
 * And remember everyone, before the Ten-Tails was revived, the Demonic Statue was a mummified space corpse. The abilities of the Ten-Tails, from chakra, appearance and power, are different. Remember, Naruto and B could sense the Statue's chakra through normal means but when it became the Ten-Tails they could not.
 * And lastly, I already warned not to look to much into my use of Limited Tsukuyomi. I even mentioned I used that instead of "The genjutsu Madara dragged Tobi into just before he died" because I was not about to type that more than once.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 10:21, August 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * @Elve: Yes, I flip-flopped after I re-read the Madara flashback chapters. No way on God's green earth its Ten-Tails related. Nagato was stated to have created them, no Ten-Tails. Obito could create them (even creating other versions of them, like those big ass stakes he stabbed Gyūki with, or shot at Naruto) without the Ten-Tails. Madara even created them, no Ten-Tails. But what they all have in common is the Rinnegan, and all could use its Outer Path. Like we already said, Obito mainly used abilities of the Outer Path through the rods during the battle with the jinchūriki, Kakashi, and Gai. That, and Madara's little tid-bit that the rods worked better with the Rikūdo techniques. It has nothing to do with the Ten-Tails at all. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:13, August 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Wow, the big ass stakes comment is valid, can't find a counter-argument. But as far as I'm aware, Nagato creating them is super vague and apparently it was mentioned somewhere but no one can find the source. But again, Madara didn't have Rinnegan, unless he made all the rods before giving his eyes to Nagato. Can you also explain why were they coming from the Ten-Tails' body? Look like how huge it is, you think Madara placed it there?... link here It definitely looks like it originates from it. Hell again, when Madara ordered Obito to use the specific rod with "six path technique" (whatever he meant, since Obito didn't have Rinnegan) on which he commented to be his will given form, it looked like it descended from the Ten-Tails' novel down the flower and right through Flower Hash Clone's navel. It didn't puke into existence in Madara's hands--Elveonora (talk) 17:28, August 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not here to speculate on that, Madara had the Rinnegan at some point prior to meeting Obito. He had every chance to create as many as he wanted. The fact is, only Obito has had access to the Ten-Tails (Gedo Mazō is its own entity. Had its own chakra and its own techniques). The other two only had access to Gedo Mazō, yet Nagato made his bladed disruption blades out of them, and Obito made the big stakes before the Ten-Tails even came into the equation. They manifested their own will into physical form, therefore giving birth to the receivers. Considering the Outer Path is used to control the Gedo Mazō, Naruto (when he and B fought Obito and the jinchūriki) said that the use of the chakra receivers to control corpses was a "Gedo no Jutsu" (Outer Path technique), and most of the other techniques, and heck, even when Madara tried forced Obito to force Obito to revive him with the rods, he was using an Outer Path technique, all evidence points to a Rinnegan-born technique, created from the Outer Path. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:12, August 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * While the idea that the receivers originate from the chakra of the Ten-Tails is highly possible, there just isnt sufficient evidence to clearly conclude that it does. The only thing you could do is try to piece together the correlation to what Obito did in the recent chapter to the naval rod protruding from the Gedo Mazo. The idea within such would be defined as speculation, at best. The idea that they originate form the Outer Path is the most logical. Like T.T.Fox stated before, he could have created them at any time. The evidence backing that up would be Nagato and Obito. I mean, all three were Rinnegan users. The only confusing fact i could see here is that people seem to think that Madara created the rod he displayed to Obito at that moment. Most likely he didnt. He had simply shown him the rod he created prior to their meeting. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 18:37, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

Fox, your former stance on the subject was that it must be Ten-Tails related due to the flashing orb, suddenly it isn't, are you going to simply ignore that just because you have found a more for yourself satisfying explanation all of a sudden? There's as much evidence it's Ten-Tails related as that it's Outer Path related--Elveonora (talk) 18:46, August 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * There is none that it is Ten-Tails related. All you have as conclusive evidence of anything is an orb of black chakra, which I stated I changed my opinions on after re-reading some of the other chapters. Did Obito form receivers from them? Yes. Does that mean they're required? Hell no. Otherwise Madara, Nagato, and Obito prior to the Ten-Tails revival couldn't have made them at all. How do you explain the giant stakes? Did they come out of the Mazō's stomach? You can't prove that can you? What about the Disruption blade variant used by Pain Rikudō? Did they come out of the Mazō as well? Where's the proof? Or is it more likely that, being a user of the Rinnegan, both of them were able to create their own variants. After all, in the case of the stakes, the Mazō was right behind Obito, so why did he summon them from the Kamui dimension rather than from the stomach of the Mazō like you say he should? How about the fact that every time someone was stabbed by them, a visage of the Rinnegan appeared? Madara said they're his will in physical form. There is no Ten-Tails involved in making the user's will physical. Its more related to the Outer Path's abilities than anything, and there is not one panel of proof the Ten-Tails created it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 19:25, August 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) The flip-flop angle ain't gonna work. Ten Tailed Fox looked at the information and adjusted his conclusion. He's not fighting a battle with a losing argument just because he thought it was correct the first time.
 * 2) There is no evidence that it is Ten-Tails related. You keep backing into that corner because of the statue when everyone else told you that what the Statue can do is not relevant to what the Ten-Tails can do. We have proof that nobody had access to Ten-Tails chakra until Tobi and Madara resurrected it. We have proof that all the Rinnegan users used the Outer Path with the chakra receivers.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 19:29, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

Well, aside from all this conversation, answer two things...first Nagato never used the rods prior to being used as a pin-cushion when he brought out the Gedo Mazo for the first time. And the rods appeared from Obito's body, much earlier than when he obtained the Rinnegan...more specifically when he first used his MS and WR powers...so i don't believe they are Rinnegan related, although they may have been developed to work in conjunction with the Six Paths Technique...but before you start saying they are Rinnegan/Outer Path related, answer the two questions. Darksusanoo (talk) 22:15, August 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't even know what any of what you just said was supposed to mean. You basically said, "Well, forget everything that was just said. This is what I believe, so you guys should answer my questions." Look up. Most of the answers to your questions are above. Otherwise, your questions are irrelevant because they've already been discussed. Edit: Also, from the looks of it, you are the one who should be answering questions; not asking them. You bear the burden of proof. After all, Ultimate said it himself. There is no evidence that the Rods are Ten-Tails, and certainly not Wood Release related. There is evidence, however, that it is an Outer Path skill, and therefore, a Rinnegan one. So, I'll refer to you to my post, three posts up. Those are the questions that need answering to prove you or Elve's point. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 22:26, August 25, 2013 (UTC)

I think, for now, Cerez already took care of the business. Unless proven otherwise, those chakra rods used for the barrier were a variant of Ten-Tails Chakra Weapons (just like the staff) and not related to the original rods.--Elveonora (talk) 22:39, August 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * Cerez didn't do anything to solve this. He was just adding that to the gallery to prove that those rods came from the black orbs. We place every variant of weapon those orbs create there. He even mentions they're chakra receivers, so clearly he thought that's what they were too. So this discussion still needs to continue. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 22:40, August 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Darksusanoo: Those rods, as I noticed even then only came from his Zetsu side, the same side the wood came out and would over a dozen chapters later come out again when Madara was taking control. It stands to reason, he didn't create those rods but those were implanted in the Zetsu by Madara.
 * Nagato wasn't shown using any Rinnegan ability (save for the trait of learning all nature releases) until Hanzo made him flip. Should Shinra Tensei be a Ten-Tails ability too?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 22:55, August 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * ^ This times a thousand. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 22:58, August 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok @Fox mind your tone, this is becoming a recurring trait with you in general...i asked a legitimate question...i didn't made any implications, i asked a series of questions'...i never implied the rods were WR related or Ten-Tails related, where the hell do you get this stuff?. We've seen Nagato use Shinra Tensei and we know it's a Rinnegan ability. However with the rods, we've only seen Obito and Nagato used them, after they were implanted in someway...Obito didn't even have a Rinnegan at the time...that's why i'm saying this isn't Rinnegan related, nor WR related, much less Ten-Tails related...fact his, the only concrete bit of evidence to their origin is that semi-vague statement by Madara.
 * EDIT: I was just reviewing the page chapter...now i did miss a few details from when Obito fires the little rod things...but now rewatching this (sorry @Fox my eyesight isn't what it used to be :P) this looks like another variant of the black orbs...we see the orb positioned behind the palm of it's hand, we see the spike protuding through his palm and then the little bits being fired off...all with the same firey aura...so to me they have nothing to do with the rods themselves...it's only another variant of the orbs. Darksusanoo (talk) 23:27, August 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * Which is not what we're talking about at all. Obito was already shown to create the rods. Those giant black stakes that he shot at Gyūki and Naruto his variants and he clearly created them himself, as neither Madara or Nagato had them, and that's something not even Elve contests. Secondly, this discussion is the "Origin of Chakra Receivers". I don't know when this turned into a debate on the Ten-Tails Chakra Weapons, but that's what keeps being mentioned, even after both Ultimate and I pointed out they aren't relevant. The Ten-Tails plays no part in this. You also completely blew off Ultimate's counter argument. You said that Nagato's first usage of the Rods is when he uses Gedo Mazō against Hanzo. What Ultimate is saying is that Nagato's first use of any Rinnegan ability was his fight against Hanzo, so, rightly so, by your logic, Shinra Tensei is now a Ten-Tails skill because he didn't use it until he went batshit crazy against Hanzo. Read what everyone is saying before yelling and getting mad at others. You jumped in mid-debate and completely derailed it with irrelevant arguments to what we were discussing. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 23:34, August 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * Edit: Also, I laugh my tail off everytime you say "Madara's vague statement". Do you know what "vague" means? It means something that is unclear. Madara said, and I quote for the 50th time, "These black rods are my will made physical in form." That, my friend, is not vague. That is, actually, very, very specific. It means that anyone who creates the rods are manifesting their will into a physical form. I suggest you stop labeling that statement "vague" to prevent yourself from dealing with the fact that it derails most of what you're arguing. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 23:39, August 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * You want to know about the origin of them...Madara. Why? Here's why:
 * In-series wise, his manifestation of the rods were the first to be displayed in chronological terms.


 * He was the only one who gave any definitive statement about their creation...his will manifested into physical form...can't go much further than that. Also i said semi-vague, cuz he doesn't provide any details about it...was it Rinnegan related? Yin-Yang? Did he pull it out of his nether regions? That's what i meant by vague...there's no explanation, however minimal to what kind of process he used to make them...no one disputes the whole will into physical form thing.


 * Obito's giant stakes are iffy at best...why? First, unlike every other variant, they don't emerge from the user's body like the other ones...second, you don't have a shred of proof that Obito created them...he used them yes...extensively yes...he may have created them, but he may have simply modified them from pre-existing rods, or got them from the large weapons' cache Madara left him at the cave, since he already used almost every other thing there.


 * Lastly, i may stray for a bit, but bear with me. Why would i share the secrets of a technique that allows me to produce a special, self-replicating type of weapon that allows me to control another person's body? After saying said technique would be key to reviving me? And most of all to my clearly double-crossing student? Why would Madara even bother to try and control Obito, if Obito was aware of the workings of the technique?


 * Another detail: Why did Madara say to Obito, to use the rods created by him for the Six Paths Technique. Why would he bother instructing him to do that, if he meant to teach Obito how to create them on his own? Darksusanoo (talk) 00:33, August 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * All you've done with your points are reaffirm mine and Ultimate's points, along with what many others have presented in this argument. We proved way up there that Obito and Nagato can create them, so your continued attempts to disprove that with conjecture and personal opinions is not helping your case; that's what Ultimate was trying to explain to Elve earlier. Your last point doesn't even make sense. He was telling Obito that the rods and the Six Paths technique work really well together. Obviously that's the truth, because that's the sole way that Nagato used the Six Paths Techniques, straight through the rods and into the corpses of his Six Paths of Pain. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 00:48, August 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * Actually for the sake of this argument, I'll answer your points;
 * Being the first human in the series shown to use the rods is not proof he is their origin. Moot point.
 * Most teachers know how their techniques work when they pass them on to their students. Don't know what you mean by that. Also, they came out of the Gedo Mazō, which is controlled through the Outer Path. They use Outer Path techniques. And when one is stabbed by them, a visage of the Rinnegan appears.
 * Obito's stakes aren't iffy. Madara only created the rods themselves. Nagato created the rods and the disruption blades. Obito was shown to use all three. So he did create the stakes. The fact that they didn't come out of his body is proof that they're not the ones Madara put in him, like you keep saying, and, I'll say this, if the user creates the rods, they don't need to come out of their body. So you point is moot there too.
 * He did it. Clearly Obito didn't think he'd betray him, but, seeing as he broke free the very next panel he is shown, from Madara's control, it goes to figure he knew how to defeat the technique, so Madara's attempt was futile anyways. Your point there is moot.
 * See my post above this one for this answer.
 * ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 00:55, August 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * Are you kidding me? Hell by that term, remove Minato as the origin of the Rasengan. He was the first to ever use it, he was reffered as his creator. Unless you can prove the Sage or the Ten-Tails are the origin of the rods...which you made a considerable effort to disprove and remove from topic...or please tell who was their creator them?
 * *Hum, do you have a reading problem? Your second answer had nothing to do with my second point. I reffered to Madara's statement as vague due to him not giving details about how he managed to transform his will into a physical object, not about him managing to do it.


 * *Obito's stakes and Nagato's blades are very iffy...because you don't have a single panel, phrase or word showing that they created the rods. You know what you do have? Both of them had the rods placed into their body...hell Nagato was made into a pin-cushion by them! Obito displayed them much earlier than when he acquired a Rinnegan, and it was always through the Zetsu side of his body...and the stakes were fired from his Kamui dimension! But you never saw who, how or when they were made, so you can't say they are Obito's.


 * *"The fact that they didn't come out of his body is proof that they're not the ones Madara put in him, like you keep saying, and, I'll say this, if the user creates the rods, they don't need to come out of their body. So you point is moot there too." For a guy who keeps criticizing others about bringing personal opinions into subjects, you sure like to bring more than your fair share of them...


 * *Need i remind you of two of Obito and Madara's spats, where first Obito never considered or respected Madara as an ally and the second, when he blackmailed Madara with the Gedo: Rinne Tensei technique into giving him the lead in the battle against the Alliance? So that does show that Obito was planing to betray him, and Obito didn't break free, he resisted enough to make the sealing technique for the Jubi...that was what allowed Obito to snap free from Madara.


 * *And again, as always you neglect to answer my questions...why would Madara even bother to try and control Obito, if Obito knew how to counter his technique? Darksusanoo (talk) 01:33, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

(Resetting indents) None of it matters. I'll wait for Cerez or Ultimate to weigh in some more. I'm done arguing with you. I don't even know what you're trying to say. Your grammar is terrible and none of it even makes sense. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 01:53, August 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * You've pretty much said what I was going to say Ten Tailed Fox.
 * Darksusanoo, the first person who used the technique was Madara. We know this, we all agree. That is not up for discussion everyone knows this to be true. Not sure what you are going on about here.
 * Except...warping them out of Kamui is not an opinion. He can keep stuff there.
 * Yeah...Madara and Tobi don't like each other. And that has to do with this discussion...?
 * Many reasons for Madara to teach him about how the rods work. Even if he didn't Pain could have told him. This however has nothing to do with this discussion.
 * Seriously, I'm not even sure what points you are trying to make anymore Darksusanoo.
 * To clarify me and Ten Tailed Fox: Chakra Receivers were first used by Madara, who taught Tobi how to use them. Tobi did not use them until he got the Rinnegan, as shown by their use in his Six Paths of Pain and the stakes. Pain did use them for his Six Paths and even made blades out of them. All use of the receivers have been through application of the Outer Path and not the Ten-Tails as stated previously because none of them had access to the Ten-Tails' chakra.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 02:11, August 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm glad you're here Ulti-sama. I was about three seconds from pulling all my hair out. ^^ lol ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 02:21, August 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * God did i fall into the Twilight Zone or something?
 * *I never mentioned the Ten-Tails at any point, hell i agreed with that. It has nothing to do with the rods.
 * *My point from the get go, was that Madara taught Obito how to use the rods, he didn't taught him how to make them. Hell i pulled @Fox's quote, where he said to Obito to use the rods he made, when using the Six Paths Technique not that he'd teach him how to make new ones. That's the difference.
 * *Yes Obito warped the stakes from the Kamui, my point there was that we only know he used them, we don't know if he made them.
 * *My point about Madara not teaching Obito how to materialize his will to make the rods was that would make Madara's atempt to control Obito pointless, if not ridiculous. Why would he do that if he knew his student was aware of it's workings?
 * *The thing is...the rods are self-replicating...best example: Gedo Mazo statue using Nagato as a pin-cushion...it went from one long rod, to about a few dozen of them.
 * * To make it simple: It's usage vs creation. Obito and Nagato can and have used the rods, they may have even modified them to an extent, but they are cannot create them. We simply have no proof of that. There @Ultimate is that clear enough? Darksusanoo (talk) 02:36, August 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * We have plenty of proof of it, as Ultimate and I have shown. You're the one without proof. You're the one not making sense. Not even sure what you're arguing, much less why. Half of what you say doesn't even have a shred of relevance to this discussion, as we've pointed out numerous times now. But, now that Ultimate has said what he has to say, I suppose I'll ask Cerez for his opinion. He hasn't weighed in in awhile. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 02:40, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oww for Pete's Sake, now your being daft. I'm arguing that: A- Madara is the origin of the rods...he's the first to use them in series. B- I don't believe they are Rinnegan related...if they were, they wouldn't have reacted in Obito's body, nor protuded from the Gedo Mazo's body. C- As you so tried with such force to disprove, i don't believe they are Ten-Tails related. Darksusanoo (talk) 02:57, August 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * Why didn't you just say that in your first post? We could've saved the last few hours of my life, and spent them on something that actually mattered. Everyone agrees with your first point, so stop bringing it up. It doesn't prove anything. He's the first user we see, but there are two other users. It does not matter that he originated the technique. Stop arguing a point everyone agrees on. The second point is irrelevant. The fact that when someone is stabbed with them, the Rinnegan appears in their mind is proof enough that it is Rinnegan related. But the fact that it is used in the Six Paths of Pain, to control dead bodies, is an Outer Path technique, as stated by Naruto, AND they are conductors in the Outer Path Charka Chains, which is an Outer Path technique. Their abilities and creation are directly linked to the Outer Path, therefore, regardless of what you think, they are Rinnegan-connected. And the third point is again, something everyone agrees on, so its pointless to continually bring it up. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 03:09, August 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * Ok...let's restart this slowly ok @Fox...i saw the separation of the materialiation technique and the rods and i believe it was wrong and should be undone. Madara was said they were born from his will, thus the technique creates the tool. Period. I don't believe Nagato and Obito can materialize them, but i do believe they since they had the rods implanted into their bodies and can produce and modify more from the ones already in their bodies. Now about the rods themselves i believe they were developed to aid in the use of the Rinnegan techniques, due to their ability to act as conductors but they are not related to the dojutsu. The second point is not irrelevant...the rods reacted in Obito's body when he activated the MS and WR...they protuted a good two feet from his body and he had no Rinnegan, or even knowledge of it. You can't throw that in the can and say it's irrelevant. From the way i see it, (and i commented as such a several posts ago) this the materialization technique is a Yin-Yang technique that was developed to (among other things) aid in the use of the Six Paths Technique. There...Darksusanoo (talk) 03:33, August 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * We've already proved everything you just said wrong in the earlier conversations. You're the one that needs to take things slowly. I know what I'm saying and it can't all be gibberish, because others are agreeing. That leads to your understanding being the issue. I don't care if you think Obito and Nagato can't use them. They can. They can create it. That is the consensus, even before this page was created, so stop arguing it. I'm not arguing this point with you anymore. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 03:40, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

What I think about this topic has already bee mentioned on Talk:Six Red Yang Encampment technique's page. Madara does not create them, they're made by the beast itself which is a much more believable notion than the former. Apart from that, I have nothing else really to contribute to this.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 06:51, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * The ones in that discussion were the receivers used for the Barrier, ones which we already agreed were made from Ten-Tails chakra. The topic here is the notion that all the chakra receivers were made from Ten-Tails chakra, which they aren't because Tobi is the only one who can use Ten-Tails chakra. Then Darksusanoo started arguing with Ten Tailed Fox about something and I still have no idea what.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:32, August 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't even know what. Or why. Or what relevance it has to anything that's being discussed here. I'm still in agreement with you, as of the last time you summed up what we were trying to say, so we should stick with that lol. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 14:21, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

What are you talking about?... So you agree Obito created those barrier rods using Ten-Tails' chakra, right? And in the same breath you state they didn't come from Gedo Mazo? It's one and the same entity.--Elveonora (talk) 14:44, August 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * You will have to excuse me, but you are either being purposely stupid or you are just unintentionally daft. Tobi, when he's juiced up on Ten-Tails chakra has also made a lance, shown the ability of flight, and made a giant freaking tree that can shoot Tailed Beast Balls. Him using chakra that Tobirama himself said he can practically do whatever he wants with it does not mean every chakra receiver ever made came from the same place.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 15:19, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Doesn't mean they came from different sources either.--Elveonora (talk) 15:25, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * So you are mad then? Because for Titans sake we've been over this.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 15:27, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Cerez thinks the same thing as well, is he mad too? That's too rude. You don't give me much room to disagree I see--Elveonora (talk) 15:31, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Cerez's comment referred to the discussion Talk:Six Red Yang Encampment, which was referring to the Rods used in that technique. His madness is pending. And no, I'm not giving you much room to disagree because I've spent the last day proving over and over how that reasoning is faulty, and in response had to to defend Ten Tailed Fox from flipflop arguments and endure a Darksusanoo tirade which I still don't know was about.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 15:36, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * You have yet to provide any new reasoning behind why you think all the receivers are Ten-Tails based, even when that logic was rebuffed, many times over by myself and Ten Tailed Fox. Provide some new information that actually contradicts what we are saying, and not just try to find a one glove fits all which is clearly and have never been the case here.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 15:38, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

Quoting Cerez: "Madara does not create them, they're made by the beast itself which is a much more believable notion than the former. Apart from that, I have nothing else really to contribute to this" he is talking about the rods in general, not those specific barrier ones. I'm still waiting for a proper sourced translation, not just a quote that could be altered purposely or mistranslated. If you can link me to Seelentau or anyone who knows Japanese's translation of "I Madara made these rods by forming my will" rather than "I Madara made this rod by forming my will" then ok. All in all, it's you who speculate that there are multiple origins for the rods. There's no evidence for that, I believe all came from the Ten-Tails as it stuck out from its navel and Obito used its chakra and related technique to make more--Elveonora (talk) 15:44, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * By the gods. I am not speculating multiple origins. I know where they started. Madara his and gave it to Tobi and that backfired swimmingly for him.. The issue is that how which is what you are not understanding. You can continue to claim that they are Ten-Tails based, but you keep ignoring, keep putting your fingers in your ears and ignoring that if that was the case ONLY OBITO WOULD BE ABLE TO USE THE RODS. By God man it's really that simple. ONLY OBITO HAS HAD THE TEN-TAILS CHAKRA. He is the only one. No one else. The Ten-Tails' chakra and the Statue's chakra are different. It doesn't matter if the Statue is the mummified space corpse or not, their chakra is different. If they came from the Ten-Tails' then Pain would not have been able to make use of the Six Paths of Pain, because he would have no receivers to make them move. (But-but-but he-) No, he would not, he was able to make the blades on his own accord, without Ten-Tails, without the statue.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 15:52, August 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * I kinda meant the rods on a whole o.o I don't believe that neither Madara nor Nagato have played any part in creating the rods thus far, and has only been manipulating them. Obito, more recently has given us more insight into where they might have come from/how they're created.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:56, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

And yes "space corpse's" chakra kept Madara alive and allowed Spiral/Swirl Zetsu break a wall with a punch. You assume that this specific ability doesn't transfer, I believe the Ten-Tails could make the rods, made them still as "Gedo Mazo" and Obito has done recently with its chakra, it's that simple. The only valid argument I have seen so far were the stakes.--Elveonora (talk) 16:02, August 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * @Cerez: But that's not possible becaus-read the rest of this forum post.
 * @Elveonora: So Pain was not making the receivers he was making he was pulling them out of the Statue from the giant tree he was hiding in. I'm quite honestly at a loss for words and thought and going to take a step back from this discussion. Arguing with you is like arguing with a child who wishes not to listen. And I'm sure you've got a witty retort about rudeness or what have you but you can save it because I honestly don't care. Let other people read this monstrosity of a forum post and give their thoughts.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:09, August 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * ^ Pretty much sums up what I was going to say. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 16:43, August 26, 2013 (UTC)

Present evidence Nagato could make them, you are yet to. He got pierced with many and Obito could have supplied him with more or as you said, he might have taken them himself from the statue--Elveonora (talk) 21:53, August 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * ^ That is why he doesn't want to continue this conversation with you. He's given you evidence above. Plenty. And I added to it as well. What you present, in almost every argument you're in, is nothing but crackpot theories and personal opinions. And it is more than frustrating because that's all you'll argue. You don't listen to reason. If someone proves you wrong, you continue to argue belligerently, and that is the precise reason I had to take a breather last night with Darksusanoo, and he was arguing something that three people. Three. Couldn't ascertain as to the importance of to this conversation. So, I will also be dropping out of this until some others, can give their thoughts, and then I'll return and see if I can do this again. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 00:53, August 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm honestly not even sure 1) why this was created; and 2) Why it has persisted as long as it has. The general rule of logic is as follows: Who has been seen using rods, or bringing them out of nowhere (I.E. Creating)? Madara, Nagato, Obito. Now, those who have been seen using them and seemingly creating them out of thin air, what do those people have in common? The Rinnegan. Is there any substantial evidence to support a claim that they, the rods, are Juubi-derived? No. Then, logically, the source is...? The Rinnegan. Anything beyond this point is speculation and is trying to make the story fit the user's own logic. --Taynio (talk) 01:43, August 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * Holy crap... we have a winner! Logic exists after all! This made my day. Thank you, random citizen! ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 04:40, August 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * Except that within "random citizen's" logic exists a simple flaw: none of the persons they have mentioned have made the rods out of nowhere. They have always had a source, worse Nagato of all who has them protruding from his back. I don't know whether or not in previous parts of the thread (no Ulti, tl;dr) persons insisted that it came from the statue or maybe my post was not clear. I am fine with the fact that it stems from the Rinnegan (still no less a speculation than the other extreme) or even that it is coming from the Ten-Tails (while seen and conveniently being ignored is the fact that they've all had access to the beast in one form or the other) but that is fine as it is speculation at this point in time as well. As long as we don't idiotically say "Madara made them" as a hardened form of his will I am quite all right with rewording articles to portray ambiguity.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 07:29, August 27, 2013 (UTC)

@Ten Tailed Fox, what "plenty" ?????? I have read every single comment yet, there's none besides: "my logic and opinion are superior to yours" Our "evidences" don't differ, you are just looking at them from a different angle than I do. I'm with Cerez on this one. You two speculate that:
 * chakra receivers and the barrier black rods aren't the same (then suddenly flip-flopping that they are, stating that Obito did create them the same way)
 * that Madara made them all with the Rinnegan which he didn't have at the time, again speculating that he must have done so while he still had.
 * super speculating that Nagato made further chakra receivers with no proof
 * huge flaw in your assumptions: had "will materialization" been the origin of them and Rinnegan too, Madara could not have possibly made Black Zetsu without the doujutsu, so it's NOT a Rinnegan tech.
 * the only thing all the rods have in common is the Ten-Tails' power, figure--Elveonora (talk) 11:26, August 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * All I read in this topic is people arguing and nobody really listening to anyone else whatsoever. A lot of what I read was "my opinion trumps yours, get over it" type attitudes. Why can't anyone have a civilised debate without making the same point in different wording 50 times ? Also, moving into a separate subpage as this is getting quite long >_> --Speysider Talk Page 13:23, August 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's nice. Now that you have read through it all, how about giving some feedback as well? We need opinion from broader selection of editors. But I believe it's safest to keep as is right now.--Elveonora (talk) 14:04, August 27, 2013 (UTC)