Board Thread:Naruto Discussions/@comment-34656247-20181008062436/@comment-6769189-20181011221703

CombatIQmatters wrote: @LegionZero

Black zetsu clearly stated kirin was unevadeable. natural lightning is faster than the raiton techniques. He said Kirin was unevadable. He never said it was because because it was natural lightning. A huge part of what made the jutsu unavoidable was that it was so big.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

Kid naruto has clearly spawned clones behind his opponent. He did to zabuza. he did it to sasuke before too. I'm certain you didn't even look back at the chapter. chapter 14 pg 11. Because he created a bunch of clones and appear next to one another. Name an instance when a single clone was spawned more than an arms length away from the caster.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

Kurenai clearly stated itachi used his jutsu speed to create a clone behind kakashi. For all we know he then substituted with his clone afterward. Except Kurenai was wrong. Couple pages later Kakashi saved her from from Itachi stating that the one she was near(the one in front of Kakashi) was the clone.

it's obvious he weaved the sign in his robe. even going by your logic. itachi created a clone and moved faster than kisame, kakashi, asuma, and kurenai can percieve and got behind kakashi. clearly a speed feat either way you look at it. Unless he traveled under the water. Or used some genjutsu to mask his movements from Kurenai. Maybe he made the clone long before he and Kakashi got into a scuffle. Or maybe he was that fast, but again, this is from Part 1. Back when Kakashi could only use 2 Raikiri a day before collapsing. By the time of the Pain arc he could use it twice with a shadow clone and be at around half strength.

Gonna need to find a feat from Itachi closer to the Pain Arc for an accurate comparison of speed.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

The burden of proof isn't on me at all. You can't prove what the minimum damage required to destroy chibaku tensei is. You also can't prove that yakasa matagama is a weak attack. therefore, your argument is just as speculatory as mine. For all we know 3 yakasa matagama busts that core. we never got a damage quota for itachi's full power matagama. But you are the one claiming it is capable of doing so. Because you claim it can, you have to provide the evidence. Citing a time it used in combination with 2 other attacks from the strongest people in the series in their strongest form at the time doesnt say much about it. For all we know Naruto's Rasenshuriken busted the core by itself.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

sure kabuto speed blitzed him yet he couldn't do that any time before. Itachi clearly let his guard down there, even turning off his susano'o rib cage. By your own logic, itachi moved faster than both ems sasuke and kabuto could perceive each time he prepped a substitute and appeared behind kabuto. It called a diversion. Set up while Sasuke distracted him so he could send out a crow clone while flanked Kabuto. There are no instances of Itachi outspeeding Kabuto or appearing behind him

CombatIQmatters wrote:

Prove that part 2 itachi is slower than part 2 kakashi. good luck, because we have clear evidence of 30 percent itachi reacting to kakashi without any issues. That was a 30 percent clone of sick itachi too. You even go as far now as to claim itachi is slower in part 2 than he is in part one. From Part 1. We know Kakashi got steonger between his fight wjth Itachi and his fight with Pain.

I never said Itachi got slower. What are you on about?

CombatIQmatters wrote:

Yes, a jobbing itachi can only plan two moves in advance. Thanks for pointing that out. Itachi didn't have killer intent against bee, he was doing the bare minimum to satisfy kabuto's request. Itachi clearly avoided killer bee's sword blitzing with ease and escaped, proving he is faster than bee. Itachi even warned killer bee not to look in his eyes. Bee wasnt trying. He used one sword while in base.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

Itachi didn't even have killer intent against part one kakashi. kakashi admitted itachi could have killed him but didn't. he also stated that the initial ninjutsu tactics itachi used was barely half of what itachi could actually do in battle. In fact, the only two battles we have seen itachi with killer intent was against nagato and orochimaru, and he blitzed them both with totsuka, low diff. little to no strategy was needed.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

And yeah, we are gonna ignore the fact that itachi was clearly shown and stated to be holding back against hebi sasuke? that's not even worth debating. And you act like hebi sasuke is a slow opponent. that same hebi sasuke was blitzing naruto with like 0 diff, multiple times. he nearly blitzed deidara, who could react to kyuubi enhanced naruto. He was holding back so much so that he was dying of exhaustion? He was holding back his strongest technique but there is no eveidence that in any other way was he holding back. Itach could have easily worn out Sasuke without wearing himself out if that was the case.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

so now the excuse is that nagato can't see the blade, and that he can't move his arms. First of all, the mobility issue is in his legs, not his arms. Cant preapare for what you cant see.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

Secondly, Nagato reacted to kcm naruto's rasengan without any hand movement by using preta, so you made that up. He had one arm up already. Every time Nagato/Preta Path/Madara absorbed ninjutsu they had an arm up.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

nagato has also used shinra tensei without any hand movement. He can see the blade. he is staring right at the center of the smoke where the blade came out. You keep saying the blade is instant but Nagato is suppose to react to it anyways?

CombatIQmatters wrote:

I also proved he is far away from that smoke too, absolutely no reason he can't see the blade. He couldn't mentally react. Shinra tensei can deflect the blade if enough power is behind it. Judging from the tree on Nagato's left he is nowhere near as far as you think he is.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

You have no proof that using one shadow clone would cripple him either, you literally made that up. So you are saying Itachi could fight Sasuke with the same efficiency at half stamina? He would last as long as he did and use the same number of techniques at half stamina?

CombatIQmatters wrote:

the crow clones have an unstated stamina split, but the stamina split exists, and he used 3 of them in the same day. Evidence? That it splits chakra the way shadow clones do.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

Itachi wasn't at full health when he was coughing up blood either. Why does it matter? This about sick Itachi.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

he used multiple genjutsu, multiple clones, more than one large katon. more than one amaterasu. He used a low level genjutsu(ephemeral) and Tsukuyomi. He used 2 Amaterasu and a Fireball Jutsu.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

Kakashi could still fight just fine, after using his clone. you also made that up. I didnt make that up. Kakashi had one attack after that and even with help from Choza and Choji he got no diffed

CombatIQmatters wrote:

His clone itself was casting raikiri dog, using raikiri, dodging missles. No signs of exhaustion whatsoever. 1 Raikiri, 1 lightning fang. When was the clone suppose to be shown exhausted anyways, it died almost immediately after.

By the time at the beginning of Part 2, Kakashi was stated to only be able to use Raikiri 4 times a day with Sharingan. He used it 4 times against Pain+a ligthtning shadow clone and his last technique killed him. He used 7 attacks and died.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

His chakra was low and he has low reserves, but he only got screwed over once he got shinra tensei'd into oblivion and couldn't move due to his injuries. you can clearly see his head is bleeding from the damage. Kakashi died because his sharingan taxes him extra, that was established since part one. Who said he got Shinra Tensei'ed again?

Considering how Kakashi got offscreened there wasnt much he was capable of doing. No more clones, no more surprise attacks, no more plans, not even an attempted escape. Last we saw of him he had used his 2nd most taxing jutsu the maximum number of times he could use it in a day.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

and yata mirror blocks shinra tensei. If it is facing in the direction the attavk is coming from.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

The summons are irrelevant. they get one-shotted by totsuka. Drawing Totsuka from gourd is may be instant. but not the swings of the blade. After seeing the span of the blade the Pains will scatter.

While Itach takes out some summons Pain can:
 * Preta sets up for absorption as a defense
 * Preta Path moves in to absorb Susanoo itself while Asura attacks from the ground, and/or Deva Shinra Tensei's Itachi
 * 1 or more paths go into the chameleon after seeing the Tostuka blade so they can have a surprise advantage.
 * one or more Pains summons take to the sky to get a safe distance away
 * literally any combination of the above.

Itach may have the sword and sheid but he cant counter/stop attacks coming from 6+directions at once from varying distances, a couple of which he cant even see coming

CombatIQmatters wrote:

and no, based on the movement lines ashura path clearly jumped down in front of kakashi from above. we can't see when he jumped. he could have already been high in the air when pain was restrained. The camera angle doesn't allow us to see that. You can see above Kakashi and Deva before Asura shows up. And he isnt there. He would have to travel a distance equal to twice his height in the time Kakashi extended his arm based on the positioning on page 10