Talk:Mangekyō Sharingan

Indra's Mangekyou Sharingan Design
Where does it show Indra's Mangekyou Sharingan Design? Where it in the manga or anime? I dont think he have an actual confirm design.--Ankhael (talk) 18:00, June 4, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes we have, and you've been a pain the ass about it ever since. Chapter 462, when Tobi is telling the story to Naruto, Yamato, and Kakashi. You can see the spiral, and in the anime, it was coloured red. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:08, June 4, 2016 (UTC)
 * Oh ok i know what talking about, but it doesn't say its his mangekyou i dont think.--Ankhael (talk) 18:14, June 4, 2016 (UTC)
 * Which is why there are lengthy explanations to you, in more than one talk page, including your own, whenever you whine about the subject up or try having it removed from any article where that information is relevant. Consider this a warning, next time you mess with this information in any article, I will block you. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:49, June 4, 2016 (UTC)
 * A warning? As a user I have a right to edit pages. I am not doing anything wrong here. There is no clear confirmatory reference to indra's MS design. Perhaps you have a problem with me correcting this article the way it should be written with correct information. I simply asked, "where is it that I can find, clear confirmation of Indra's Mangekyou Sharingan design? You have giving nothing but vague information that doesn't really clearly give confirmation that the spiral image is his mangekyou sharingan. Sure you are entitled to assume that it is. But it doesn't mean that your bias assumptions should go into the article as fact.
 * Honestly I'm not here to make an argument, I'm just simply here to do the right thing, and to help me do the right thing. I think its best that we should keep his mangekyou sharingan design as unknown until further information is reveal. Perhaps you could edit the article that approaches your interesting assumption as an assumption but not a fact. I think that would be appropriate, wouldn't you agree thats fair?.--Ankhael (talk) 05:09, June 5, 2016 (UTC)
 * Unless the anime's Kaguya arc or a future filler arc covers Hagoromo's kids, it's highly unlikely that further information will be revealed at this point as to whether Indra's spiral-eye pattern is his Mangekyo Sharingan or not. If it is Indra's Mangekyo Sharingan, Kishimoto probably thought the fans would be able to put two and two together without him having to spell out every minute detail of information, and/or didn't even take into consideration that such a debate would ever take place. Arawn 999 (talk) 05:22, June 5, 2016 (UTC)
 * I guess your right Arawn, but still it they shouldn't write it as fact that his mangekyou sharingan looks like that. Sure its a fact he was shown to have those spiral eyes, but that just that he was shown to have them. But we cant just make put our assumptions as fact in the article. Omnibender seems kinda bias, no offense Omnibender, but you don't want to hear me out on this. No one really does. It just make clear sense that the some of the users get to get away with stuff like this. But dont allow others to elaborate on other thing in the articles. Like hagoromo and others. Hagoromo has a Mangekyou Sharingan but no one knows its design, and honestly the same goes for indra's. Its nothing wrong with this wiki, its a great page but the users, are somewhat bias. No offense but im calling it how i see it. --Ankhael (talk) 05:45, June 5, 2016 (UTC)
 * To be fair, though, there really isn't anything else the spiral eyes can be other than his Mangekyo Sharingan, especially given that Indra was shown with a regular Sharingan, he's known to have a Mangekyo Sharingan since he used Susanoo against Asura, and the spiral eyes were coloured red - at least in the anime. As I said, Kishi probably figured readers would be able to deduce that the spiral eyes were Indra's Mangekyo without having to be explicitly told - part of good storytelling is "show, don't tell", after all. Arawn 999 (talk) 06:00, June 5, 2016 (UTC)
 * You have been at this for over two years now, haven't you? I appreciate that you're so persistent, but when you're told multiple times to stop changing this, you have to listen. Of course you have the right to edit pages, but we can revoke this right if you continue to spam the same edit over years. The eyes are indirectly confirmed to be Indra's MS simply through showing them when Tobi talks about the sons inheriting his father's powers. In the same scene, Ashura was shown with the aura to indicate his physical prowess. Plus, they're the only change in his eyes that was ever shown, and he was never said to have another dojutsu, nor is there any indiation that there actually is an entirely new dojutsu we were never told anything about. If you can't put two and two together, it's your problem, but please stop editing this. • Seelentau 愛 議 10:03, June 5, 2016 (UTC)
 * Ankhael contributes nothing except an obsession with this topic, as well as calling every single user (and the wiki) "biased" when people don't agree with him on it. Indra has a Mangekyo, end of story and I really hope you get blocked if you bring it up any more times. --Sajuuk 10:58, June 5, 2016 (UTC)

So I will be blocked because I brought up a minor edit issue for the second time in 2 years. Go right ahead, I'm sure you can block me over something as little as this, that is a big idea to you guys, especially if your threatened to block me, thats fine I'll live. But I will point out that what you guys are doing is not correct editing. This is not just an Indra issue, as you make it.

Just at least hear me out before you block me

the scene in the anime does not clearly confirm that what are seeing is Indra's Mangekyo Sharingan Design. Your making Inferences based off what you are seeing. Its nothing wrong with that assumption, in the article, its that we cannot make it a fact. Sure he inherited his father's eye power, but to what extent. Just like you i can put a 2 and 2 together to get a different 4, for along time we thought that the sages eye powers was just rinnegan, but we learn that sharingan was his first unlocked power than mangekyou to Rinnegan. With Indra being the son, his powers could be exactly like his father's, from Sharingan to Rinnegan, Indra and hagoromo is a 1000 years before the rest of the uchiha, and the uchiha over the span of a 1000 years could have lost their natural ability to awaken rinnegan, however just like you that is an assumption I just made. We saw variations of rinnegan, to red, purple, with tomoe, what if thats Indra rinnegan variation, again i am only making an assumption. Based off that scene in the anime and with the fact that Indra is born with his father's eye power, along with the reveal detail on Hagoromo's use of sharingan to rinnegan i can easily assume that maybe Indra possess rinnegan as well. Just like you can assume that its his mangekyou. As well Asura having Hagoromo's body power, asura was able to naturally unlock and use the sage of six paths mode, Indra having Hagoromo's eye power could have been able to naturally unlock rinnegan and over time the power lessen throughout the 2 clans, that makes perfect sense. Just an assumption that can contrast your assumption on it being a Mangekyou. Putting 2 and 2 together you can get another 4, and again i am only assuming here, but it doesn't mean i should make it a fact. That easily just made as much as sense if not more from what we seen so far with the information that have been reveal. --Ankhael (talk) 14:01, June 5, 2016 (UTC)

It could be another variation of a red rinnegan. Or a purple. What other evidence suggests otherwise, this assumption can be easily made just like its being assume that its Mangekyo Sharingan. And for this, thats why I said it isnt a good idea to write it as fact in the article but pre assumed. --Ankhael (talk) 14:07, June 5, 2016 (UTC)
 * Indra having the Rinnegan makes no sence at all, unlike MS. Do you know that Black Zetsu tempted Indra into battling Asura and then spent centuries with making their descendants join forces and awaken the Rinnegan? For BZ, the latter action would've been completely pointless if Indra himself possessed the Rinnegan, and BZ could've easily made Indra summon Gedo Mazo from the Moon and set Eye of the Moon plan into the motion already then. Yet he chose to manipulate his descendants into awakening Rinnegan instead, which means that it's surely not the Rinnegan Indra possessed. And all the Indra's descendants needed Asura's power to attain it, this point stands clear thanks to the BZ tale (besides, Asura possessed the SPSM only because of Hagoromo granting him his power). The pattern doesn't even remind the Rinnegan (it didn't spread throughout the entire eyeball), at the same time it's not a regular Sharingan too. The only known stage between regular Sharingan and Rinnegan is MS - and we know that a) different users have different MS patterns, so Indra's eyes can be a one b) He surely possessed an MS because of his Susanoo use. And since there are no other known doujutsu between Sharingan and Rinnegan, the only one left is MS. It's pure logic, dude. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 14:24, June 5, 2016 (UTC)

Ok you do have a good point, i guess that settles it.--Ankhael (talk) 14:33, June 5, 2016 (UTC)

It was explicitly stated by Hagoromo that he was afraid that Indra would have attempted to steal Asura's power in order to get the Rinnegan, confirming that Indra didn't have the Rinnegan and would have needed Asura's power to get it.--Elve Talk Page 16:00, June 5, 2016 (UTC)
 * Whew, finally. And don't fret, you're not going to get banned for this (at least nor for a long time). Just remember that most of us have been editing wikis for a long time, we know how to handle these things properly. So if you see something like this, you can be sure that we've taken all possibilities into consideration before adding the information. :) • Seelentau 愛 議 16:01, June 5, 2016 (UTC)

Mangekyou Sharingan Intro
In This Line Of Text: "The Mangekyō Sharingan (万華鏡写輪眼, Literally meaning: Kaleidoscope Copy Wheel Eye) is an advanced form of the Sharingan that has only been activated by a handful of Uchiha." I Made An Edit Changing That Last Line Uchiha, Into People, With Each Half Of The Word Linking It To Uchiha And Otsutsuki, Not Just Uchiha. I Did So Because Indra (And In The Anime Hagoromo) Are Not Uchiha, But Otsutsuki. But Jou Seems To Think It Should Remain As Uchiha For Some Unknown Reason, And Keeps Undoing The Edit. Bob1200 (talk) 00:56, June 11, 2016 (UTC)
 * Mentioning just the Uchiha in that opening isn't wrong, logically speaking. It says only a handful of Uchiha awakened it, framing its rarity only within the Uchiha. An Ōtsutsuki having awakened it isn't excluded by that statement. It's the same logic as answering the question "Is Naruto blue-eyed or brown-eyed?" with "yes". Considering the MS appeared primarily on the Uchiha, with only one natural, non-Uchiha user in canon, not mentioning Ōtsutsuki in the opening makes complete sense. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:06, June 11, 2016 (UTC)
 * What If We Make It So It Says "and One Otsutsuki" And Link It To Indra, So The Otsutsuki Aren't Left Out? Bob1200 (talk) 01:14, June 11, 2016 (UTC)
 * There're already mentioned in the infobox, that's enough. --JouXIII (talk) 11:42, June 11, 2016 (UTC)
 * Not Really, Because There's Only 2-3 Actual Mentions Of Indra In The Entire Page. Bob1200 (talk) 18:41, June 11, 2016 (UTC)
 * Considering those cover the entirety of MS related things regarding Indra (had it, could use Susanoo), it is ok. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:51, June 11, 2016 (UTC)

Hagoromo's MS design
Just wondering, who is able to create these neat .svg-file? Just saw there's none for Hagoromo's design yet. :/ Norleon (talk) 05:49, June 17, 2016 (UTC)
 * Because it was never shown due to Hagoromo's eyes evolving to Rinnegan at the same time. As for your question, I know of two users who can create  files.--JOA2006:14, June 17, 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the answer. I thought they labeled the thing on his forehead his MS. oO Norleon (talk) 12:24, June 19, 2016 (UTC)

Kakashi Not in Known Wielders Section
I don't know if this is a good thing to point out, or is a dumb question but. Why isn't Kakashi not in the Known Wielders? I know he gotten his Sharingan from Obito, then he awaken the Mangekyō Sharingan after killing Rin (Is that her name?). So why wouldn't he be there? (AtlantisUchiha (talk))
 * All the MSs are listed only for the original owners, because technically it's still their own power, even if later it was given to someone else. But it doesn't change the fact the MS actually belongs to it's original wielder, not just someone who received his eye. Kakashi's Sharingan originally belonged to Obito, so all his traits and abilities are mentioned in Obito's MS section, as well as the fact that the left eye was in possession of Kakashi for a long time. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 10:14, June 19, 2016 (UTC)

Jinraiden trivia citation
One trivia there was about how someone experiences eye irritation before their Mangekyo activates. I think it's from Jinraiden chapter 3 so I added that as the citation. Something about the trivia wording seems a little off, but I don't know how to fix it, exactly. I'll just put a part of the fan translation (by kiyoitsukikage of Tumblr) here so people can decide what to do with it.

(Jinraiden is in Sasuke's POV)

''I tried to kneel down, but I suddenly felt my eyes throbbing. Within a few moments, a sharp pain spread from my eye sockets, causing my eyeballs to tremble.''

''What the hell was happening?  I raised both my hands to cover my eyes, which were throbbing violently by then. My field of vision distorted and I instinctively grabbed the tombstone not to fall.''

''The intensity of the vibrations did nothing but increase: it was just as if my eyes were trying to tell me something.  The Mangekyo Sharingan activates itself with the killing of a loved one.  I did a mind calculation: twenty-two days had passed since Itachi's death.  That pain was due to the activation of the Mangekyo Sharingan in my eyes.''

The death of a loved one.

And yet I hated him with all my heart until a moment before he had died.

At that moment, under the pouring rain, I was even happy for Itachi's death.

If what Madara had asserted was true, Itachi had given me the Mangekyo Sharingan by letting me defeat him.

The death of a loved one, of someone I loved. '' Itachi had been able to see what was invisible to my eyes, blinded by hatred. That's why I was chosen by the Mangekyo Sharingan.  What should I have done? Was he asking me to become the Leaf's defender? Was this what he wished for from the bottom of his heart?''

However, if I hadn't managed to understand what was concealed deep within my heart, probably he wasn't able to read his heart either.

''Was he really okay with something like that? We had to protect the Leaf even at the cost of sacrificing our clan?  I didn't want this. Not such an ending.''

The thing I wanted...

The black flames were swallowing my heart.

Pixerella (talk) 14:49, December 21, 2016 (UTC)

Eternal Mangekyo or Choku Tomoe Sharingan
Hello there, long time no see.

So as i have been rewatching old Naruto episodes near the end of the saga in the fight between Naruto and Sasuke against Madara, the latter makes some interesting remarks about the Choku Tomoe or "Straight Swirl" Sharingan that both he and Sasuke have. The first time he made such a remark was in a small scuflle between him and Sasuke, where he noted that the "Straight Swirl" Sharingan granted the user more fluid movements, which to me sounds like a funny way to say thar ir enhances the "Eye of Insight" part of the Sharingan. Now while this is nice in itself, i find it odd that Madara focuses on that aspect of both his and Sasuke's eyes over all the plethora of powers a "Eternal" Mangekyo brings to the table.

Now the thing that bugs me here is: in the series, especially when done by other Uchihas, when enemies are analyzing/praising Sasuke's abilities, they generally focus on his analytical capabilities, battle experience, movement speed and above all the grade of his Dojutsu at the time of each fight. (i.e "he's fast, he has good instincts and analytical skills and has a X-type Sharingan). So first you have the small fight between Uchihas, then you have Madara fighting Naruto and Sasuke after both had aquired the powers of the Six Paths, where Madara muses if both had a connection beyond blood and latter again, when musing about wether or not he would have made a better frontman for him than Obito was. In all 3 occassions what he focuses is in the "Choku Tomoe" Sharingan above all else.

Given this, wouldn't it be more accurate for Madara to note Sasuke's "Eternal Mangekyo" Sharingan since they were the only two who acquired it and by definition that is the highest grade of the Uchiha dojutsu? (Rinnegan shennigans not withstanding). With this in mind isn't it possible that the official name the "Eternal" Mangekyo is actually the "Straight Swirl" Sharingan?

Thoughts? Darksusanoo (talk) 20:29, May 19, 2017 (UTC)
 * He simply speaks about the form of the Mangekyo Sharingan's tomoe. The eternal Mangekyo Sharingan is still a Mangekyo Sharingan, not a third evolution or anything. There's no "Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan", only "(eternal) Mangekyo Sharingan". • Seelentau 愛 議 20:52, May 19, 2017 (UTC)
 * Yeah but the thing is the occasion where he mentions this. The first makes sense since he was in a hand-to-hand fight against Sasuke. But when he's thinking about his blood connection to the younger Uchiha or more importantly when measuring him up to Obito and saying he would have liked to have Sasuke instead of Obito, why would he focus on such a minor trait of the Sharingan, compared to all the other, much bigger powers that it gives? Darksusanoo (talk) 20:57, May 19, 2017 (UTC)
 * Because Kishimoto sucks at storytelling. He made something previously non-existant significant all of a sudden, without explaining it in more detail. This means that everything besides of Madara's words is pure speculation. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:00, May 19, 2017 (UTC)
 * True his storytelling is flawed, but i don't think you can chalk it up to a author's flaw and ignore since this ie meantion 3 times. Once maybe a mistake, twice is happenstance but three times is a pattern. Now if i remember correctly when Itachi first made the ramark that he wanted Sasuke's eyes way back when and told Madara's story, he said that Madara took Izuna's eyes for himself and from there a new eye was born. And there's also the fact that this hightened Mangekyo never had a "official" name despite the fact that it's of a different pattern and of superior power and it was Itachi's description that served as one,


 * Aside from this, while he notes that he and Sasuke were the only 2 who had the same type of eyes, there's also the fact that Madara never refered to his eyes or Sasuke's own with the term Mangekyo at anytime. The "straight pattern" is tied to the Mangekyo, not the regular Sharingan since all normal Sharingan's are exactly the same, yet Madara never reffered to it as a Mangekyo with a straight pattern, it was the "Straight Swirl" Sharingan. In other words i think that it was "us" (the community) that coined the term of Eternal and didn't realize when Kishi actually dropped the name of the thing. Darksusanoo (talk) 21:32, May 19, 2017 (UTC)
 * I think you're misunderstanding. The pure fact that he introduced it, gave it some kind of ambiguous meaning and then refused to explain it in more detail was a mistake.
 * This "hightened Mangekyo" does not exist, that's why it does not have a different name from the normal Mangekyo Sharingan.
 * We did not coin anything, the eternal Mangekyo Sharingan was actually described as that. In the same way, Madara called his and Sasuke's eternal MS a "straight-tomoe Sharingan". Maybe he did so because he didn't know the term "Mangekyo Sharingan", who knows? That's where we get back to my first point: Kishimoto introduced some obscure thing without further explanation, which was stupid. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:47, May 19, 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't see anything ambiguous to it. He reffered to that type of Sharingan as only being woken by him and Sasuke. Guess what do both have in common? Both took their siblings eyes.
 * So a procedure that gives your dojutsu superior strength to it's techniques, better perception and a altered scelera isn't considered to be a "hightened" version of the same. Riiiiight.
 * It was a description, but not a title, that's the issue here. We took a description and turned it into a title. And sure, the dude that was one of the forefathers of the clan and knew every nook and cranny of the clan and it's Bloodline Limit, doesn't know the name of one of it's forms, yet guys from his time, that were outside the clan like Tobirama and Onoki managed to know that term. As for explanation it was already there, by Madara's own words: a type of Sharingan that only he had, up until Sasuke also gained it and that made him think twice about having picked Obito as a executor to his will, despite the fact that Obito proved himself as a late blooming genius and developed a level of power that nearly rivaled Madara's own. Do you think such a description fits such a minor trait as what is noted currently? Darksusanoo (talk) 22:43, May 19, 2017 (UTC)
 * We did not do that. And I really don't want to bother with something that won't be resolved anyway. We're not going to add anything more to the article than what the manga presented and most of all we're not going to pretend the real name of the eternal MS was "Straight Swirl Sharingan" or whatever, because that was never stated. • Seelentau 愛 議 22:48, May 19, 2017 (UTC)
 * OrganicDinosaurs translation makes it clear they are talking about the eternal mangekyo when they say Choku Tomoe. Madara said that the CHOKU tomoe variant grants more fluidity of movement in battle. That line itself hints there was at least 1 or 2 other EMS users, either that or Choku does indeed refer to the regular MS and then that would make no sense in Madara's case as he does not have any straight design in his MS eyes. So what does it mean in your opinion Seel? I know you translated that before too right?? QuakingStar (talk) 22:51, May 19, 2017 (UTC)
 * Madara words it the same as Itachi when he called Madara's MS "eternal", with a no. That is never done when actually naming something.
 * What's more, he actually says in chapter 657 "I can feel it... that Mangekyo has...... straight tomoe". He doesn't use the word "form" or anything, he's just saying that Sasuke's Mangekyo has straight tomoe. • Seelentau 愛 議 23:12, May 19, 2017 (UTC)
 * Wait.. so that means the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan doesn't actually exist term wise and name wise?? It's simply Mangekyo Sharingan but with eternal eyesight and less tech strain. and Sasuke himself simply has a straight tomoe design for his normal Mangekyo.. which apparently makes him move more fluidly than people who don't have straight tomoe designs? QuakingStar (talk) 00:47, May 20, 2017 (UTC)
 * Exactly. I thought that was cleared up already? The eternal MS is to the MS what Sasuke's Rinnegan is to the normal Rinnegan, basically. Not what the MS is to the Sharingan. It's not a new dojutsu. • Seelentau 愛 議 09:59, May 20, 2017 (UTC)
 * We did not do that. And I really don't want to bother with something that won't be resolved anyway. We're not going to add anything more to the article than what the manga presented and most of all we're not going to pretend the real name of the eternal MS was "Straight Swirl Sharingan" or whatever, because that was never stated.
 * Really? This wiki has made, unmade and remade articles on shakier ground than this. Plus who the hell came with the fact that the Choku Tomoe gives "fluidity" to your movements? Fluidity pertains to body motions, not visual perception. I know that was in one of the earlier translations, but even most latter translations and even the in the anime (spoken by Madara's VO, not by translation) what he says goes more along the lines of: "Your Mangekyo...they are Choku Tomoe. No wonder you move so well...now if this were anyone else, you could make a case that they complementing their actual motions, but as noted multiple times, when Madara makes a reference to someone "moving well" it tends to be due to his weird metaphors about battles and his enemies battle prowess, comparing them to dances, dance steps and moves. In other words he wasn't making a reference to Sasuke's physical prowess specifically but more making a remark about his general battle prowess.
 * What's more, he actually says in chapter 657 "I can feel it... that Mangekyo has...... straight tomoe". He doesn't use the word "form" or anything, he's just saying that Sasuke's Mangekyo has straight tomoe.
 * Can you get me a translation of this? Darksusanoo (talk) 11:43, May 20, 2017 (UTC)
 * He says fluidity, as in Sasuke's movements. As for the second point, that is my translation. I mean, I understand what you want to say, that the true name of the eternal MS is "Choku Tomoe Mangekyo Sharingan", but that is simply not the case. Madara uses "choku tomoe" the same way Itachi used "eternal": descriptive. • Seelentau 愛 議 15:53, May 20, 2017 (UTC)

I've noticed that the known forms of EMS always cause the design of the transplanted eyes to change when merged. Madara's EMS design was his MS design layered over Izuna's, with the latter's being reduced to just the bar sections and rotated 30°. Sasuke's was more extreme in that Itachi's design was reduced(?) to fit inside Sasuke's while changing from curved to straight to more properly fit. Is it too minor a detail to exclude from the description, given that it would only be a few words and leave no indication for personal theories?Lokker G (talk) 21:41, June 10, 2017 (UTC)
 * The choku tomoe refers to Sasuke's and Madara's MS, not eMS. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:55, June 10, 2017 (UTC)