Talk:Storm Release

Interesting... Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:18, September 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * Indeed Geohound (talk) 20:32, September 17, 2009 (UTC)

The nature of Storm Release
Combining jutsu is something anyone can do, but combining elemental chakra is something only someone with a Kekkei Genkai can do (i.e. Haku, Tenzou). Are you sure about this one? It's a pretty big deal if it's true.


 * We already know Darui can use lightning and water-based jutsu, so it's not much of a logical leap to conclude that this is a combo of the two. However, the odds of this being confirmed anytime soon are not high. (I think the components of Lava Release were revealed a year after the fact.) ~SnapperTo 22:15, September 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * The problem I'm having is that there's nothing to go off of besides the term Ranton. Seeing how that part of the technique title can vary depending on the kind of technique (hijutsu, ninpo, Katon, ect), I really don't think just the term Ranton alone is enough to conclude that Darui must be combining elements. It could merely be a clan technique, or something Darui created himself. I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong, as it might turn out to be true later, but I do think it's a really big jump to go from "Ranton" to "Darui must be combining water and lightning chakra." Not only does no one actually say that's what he's doing, but it also assumes that the elements that make it up are water and lightning, which is also something nobody mentions. It's pure guesswork, with nothing to actually back it up.


 * The -ton suffix usually denotes elemental techniques, and since Ranton isn't a basic element, the most logical assumption is that it's an advanced element, and it makes sense when you consider the elements Darui has. He was even able to use two techniques from different elements at the same time. I'm not surprised with this kekkei genkai. Hopefully we won't need to wait until the fourth data book is released. Maybe an artbook, we got info on 3 jinchurikis and 4 tailed beasts with it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:32, September 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * The second artbook came out 5(?) years after the first. You're better off hoping for another databook. Also, Darui has a tattoo for each element on each arm, somewhat reflecting Yamato's "earth with my right hand, water with my left" explanation of Mokuton. ~SnapperTo 22:56, September 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * Except that he didn't use two at the same time, he used one directly after another. Sarutobi did the same thing in his fight with Orochimaru. That's not combining elemental chakra, that's doing a Collaboration jutsu with yourself.

Again, I just don't think the term "Ranton" alone justifies calling elemental fusion Kekkei Genkai. Not just because the two main points of the article (it's combining elemental chakra, the two elements used are lightning and water) are pure assumptions, and have nothing to back them up, but also because we just saw another new -ton technique in this very chapter (Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi). One that is clearly not a combination of two elemental chakras. So the argument that it's a -ton doesn't really work either, as we have a clear example of a new -ton that only involves one element, if it involves any elements at all.


 * Besides, all the -tons literally translate into [BLANK] Release, and Storm Release doesn't sound like an elemental fusion to me so much as it does a really advanced lightning technique. Just like how Blaze Release is probably just a really advanced fire technique.


 * That's just my two cents, and we could discuss what X or Y does or does not mean if we liked. But my bottom line is that I'm just really, really not seeing the evidence needed to back the claim up. It's just not there. You've literally got the name of one jutsu to go off of. Nothing else. As it stands right now, I really don't see how we could make any sort of call, because we literally know nothing about it. --Lord Raine (talk) 23:01, September 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, he did use two techniques at the same time, see here, he's using the Suiton technique, and while he's doing it, he's already finished with the hand seals of the Raiton technique, you can see the sparks in his hand at the same time the water is coming out of his mouth. That's at the same time for me. About the Enton, there is very few information about it, it has as much chance of being a combination as it has of not being, though I do think it's not one, see my idea over at Talk:Blaze Release. I agree that Storm isn't my first idea when I think Lightning + Water, but considering what was seen, it fits, it makes sense. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:34, September 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * The Xton prefixes have always denoted the element of the technique. This has been consistent throughout the entire ten-year run of the manga. Kishimoto-sensei is not going to change that, especially not after explaining in-depth how elements work. Both Storm Release and Blaze Release are elements, full stop.


 * Storm Release is actually easy to explain: Water = Rain; Rain + Lightning = Storm. Blaze Release is somewhat more difficult, but it could simply be a more powerful version of Fire Release. This would make sense, since Amaterasu is the most extreme form of fire we've seen in the manga, so mere Fire Release wouldn't be enough to manipulate and control it. --ShounenSuki (talk 12:33, September 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * He did not use two different elemental jutsu simultaneously. He used a water jutsu, and then used a lightning jutsu while the first was still in effect. He still had to cast them separately in sequence. When he performs a water and lightning combination by using water chakra in one hand and lightning chakra in the other literally simultaneously like Yamato did, then I'll believe that he might be combining elements. Until then, or until the manga or a databook outright says that Darui can fuse elements, the idea that Storm Release is a fusion of water and lightning is pure fanon. Making sense isn't enough to make it fact. As a wiki, I like to think that the Narutopedia is beyond claiming conjecture to be truth in it's articles.Altered Nova (talk) 21:24, September 18, 2009 (UTC)

Him starting the techniques at different moments doesn't change the fact that while he actively used two different techniques at the same time, they were both active at the same time, both techniques requiring active use. As for the combining of elements, it's what it's been said already, the Storm Release jutsu used later seems to be it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:48, September 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, it does. Using two jutsu at the same time would require someone running through two sets of one-handed seals simultaneously. A feat which we have never seen anyone do, even though a few people (Haku, Tenzou, ect) should be capable of it.


 * Darui ran through one set of handseals, paused, then ran through another. That's two separate jutsu one after the other, not two jutsu simultaneously. The fact that the first jutsu has a drawn-out effect isn't relevant. To do it simultaneously, you'd either need to be able to do one-handed seals, or you'd have to somehow possess two sets of arms (which isn't as unreasonable as it sounds, as Kidomaru did possess multiple sets of arms, Sakon and Ukon should have been able to do it, and as the source of the Cursed Seal, Jugo should be able to).


 * He spat the water out, then electrified it. If he had done the two jutsu simultaneously, it would have been electrified when he spat it out.


 * But that's all beside the point. My point is that if I or someone else demanded that those details be cited. . . they couldn't be. The reason is because they aren't facts. They are things that people have guessed at based on other facts. As such, they don't really belong in the article, because they isn't true. It's just speculation. Until someone can cite a page from either the manga or the databook that says Darui was using two elemental chakras simultaneously to create a new element, and that that new element is a combination of lightning and water, neither of those points belongs on the Storm Release page. --Lord Raine (talk) 00:04, September 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * The water technique he used isn't something with a set duration, there has never been an indication of that, from what it can be seen, the technique works, is used, for as long as the user "exhales" or spits the water, so to speak. As long as Darui is doing that, he's using water elemental recomposition. For the lightning technique, he had to use lightning elemenal recomposition while he was still using water elemental recomposition for the other technique. I'm not talking about initiating them at the same time, the only person with confirmed one handed seals in the series is Haku, only he could possibly use two techniques by running two sets of head seals. By using two jutsu at once, I mean using two jutsu that require active and constant effort at the same time, that he started them at different points it's what's not relevant, because both techniques, which require active concentration to use, were active at the same time. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:42, September 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * It's supposed to be a bad sign when you have to keep making assumptions to support your claim. There is nothing whatsoever in that frame to support that. It's pure conjecture on your part.


 * Again, my point is that if citations were demanded, they could not be supplied. That means the entry needs to be modified, because it's claims are not supported by the manga. It's claims are only supported by your own personal theories and conjecture, and to be blunt, that's not what people come to the Narutowiki to read. They come to read facts. If you want to post theories and conjectures in articles, then you need to either post them as bullets under the main article and label them as such (i.e. 'speculation'), or go do it in the Fanfictionwiki, where that sort of thing is accepted.--Lord Raine (talk) 01:26, September 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * Lord Raine, I don't see why you're having so much trouble with this. Each and every single use of a Release prefix has denoted an elemental technique. It is ridiculous to think Storm Release is anything other than that, just because you don't think it sounds like an element. People have been speculating about the existence of a Storm element ever since we first discovered how advanced elements work.
 * Saying Storm Release is a kekkei genkai-related advanced element composed of lightning and water isn't fanon or speculation. It's a logical conclusion based on the facts the manga has given us.
 * All Releases shown have been elements → Storm Release is an element;
 * All elements not part of the Five Basic Elements are advanced elements composed of two basic ones → Storm Release is an advanced element composed of two basic ones;
 * All advanced elements composed of two basic ones are the result of a kekkei genkai → Storm Release is a kekkei genkai-related advanced element composed of two basic ones;
 * Darui has used two elements, Lightning and Water, has the kanji for these elements tattooed on his shoulders, and Storm Release looks like lightning with the liquid properties of water → Storm Release is a kekkei genkai-related advanced element composed of Lightning and Water.
 * What else would Storm Release be? --ShounenSuki (talk 07:27, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * Then can we finally assume the same thing with Crystal Release? No reason why this should be left dangling anymore.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 11:44, September 21, 2009 (UTC)

Crystal Release? Well, we know there's some Earth Element involved...But wat else...There ould be Water (Solidify), Fire (Heat) and even Wind (Pressurise) involved with the second unknown, Its different with this, As ShounenSuki pointed out, the kanji of Water and Lightning are evn tatooed on Darui's shoulder, plus we know for a fact he can use both. Guren, never used anything besides Crystals ins any of her techs. The only reason we know that there may be earth involved was because of Kakashi's guess..--AlienGamer--Talk (contribs)-- 12:14, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * Kiba's guess, actually. If you ask me, the most logical elements for Crystal Release are Earth, for obvious reasons, and Water, since one of the Japanese words for "crystal" is.
 * Any way, it is fairly obvious that Crystal Release was also meant as a kekkei genkai-related advanced element composed of two basic ones. If it was anything else, the makers of the anime would have to be officially declared retarded... --ShounenSuki (talk 13:12, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * ShounenSuki I find it difficult to believe that you can be so incompotent. Regardless of how logical your argument is, the assumption that Ranton is an Elemental Kekkei Genkai has not been confimed by Kishimoto in the manga or databook, therefore it is is not canon. This entire discussion is complete speculation. Therefore it should not be labelled as factual within this wiki until it is proven to be a fact by Kishimoto. Just because you say so means absolutely nothing.--90.221.104.79 (talk) 17:10, September 21, 2009 (UTC)knight504
 * I find it difficult to believe you lack the basic reading comprehension that would allow you to realise that even though something hasn't been stated outright, it can still be true. An author cannot literally state each and every little detail; that would ruin the story. Once you, as an author, have given enough information about a subject, you can assume your readers will comprehend and draw their own conclusions based on context. There is more than enough evidence to make some pretty certain statements about the nature of Storm Release. It hasn't been stated outright, but we aren't claiming it's absolute truth. The information is too reliable to not be given, though. --ShounenSuki (talk 17:54, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * Until you have a page, an article, or an episode that states "Ranton is an elemental fusion," the claim that it is has no business being here. That's what this wiki is for.--Lord Raine (talk) 19:56, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * I find it difficult to believe that you're assuming so much, and that the "so much" is so wrong. Remember both examples of combined elements we have; those being Hyoton and Mokuton. In Hyoton, wind and water combine to make ice, not really cold water. In Mokuton, you combine earth and water to make trees, not mud. In each of these cases, a new "element" is created, an amalgamation of the two base elements. Not only that, there is no pause. Haku did not make water to cool into ice with wind, nor did Yamato create ground and add water to make trees. They simply made ice and trees.
 * That is not what Darui did. His “ranton” that you’re trying to argue as a combined element is simply electrified water. Water that is running a current inside it. That is not “combination.” That is adding electricity to water. He did not create a new element. He formed his big wave, and then like three or four panels later, he uses the lightning. Where is the “instantaneous combination”  you were talking about? I don’t see it.
 * Your argument is basically tha all (x)tons have been elements, and that “ranton” must therefore be an element. Assumption, plain and simple. Not only that, if it was a “ranton” technique, why is it called is the water part of the technique called Suiton: Suijinheki? And why is the lightning portion called Raiton: Kangekiha?
 * And you better not be assuming that Enton is a combination, frankly because there is no combining. It was a shaped Amaterasu, nothing more.

You misunderstand us. The only actual Ranton technique was the one so named. The electrified water example we're discussing on is to show that Darui is able to use elemental techniques from two different elements at the same time. I mean, his water technique was started at moment 0 and was active until moment 10, and the lightning technique was started at moment 6 and was active until moment 10. Though they were started at different moments they were active for a common period, in this case from 6 to 10. Such a thing wouldn't be possible cause an elemental recomposition kekkei genkai is required to use two different elements at the same time, which in this case is 6 to 10. The only Ranton technique is the one he used is the one Sasuke blocked with Susanoo, the electrified water is merely an analysis, being something that was achieved through his Ranton ability, though not being a Ranton jutsu in itself. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:41, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, the technique being discussed here is the Storm Release: Encouraging Crushing Chain Tormenting Principle, which uses an element clearly different from both water and lightning, but seemingly composed of a combination of both those elements' properties.
 * @Lord Raine: Kishimoto-sensei has set a standard with his Release names. He gave us specific information with his explanation about elemental fusions and kekkei genkai. Who are we to ignore that information? I could understand your argument if there was a precedent of Releases that weren't elements or non-basic elements that weren't elemental fusions or kekkei genkai, but there is no such precedent. Everyone wwho has been following the series and has even an ounce of reading comprehension skills would understand just what exactly Storm Release is. If it were anything else, Kishimoto-sensei would tell or show us. As long as he doesn't, we have to go by what the manga says. All of what the manga says, and not just those bits directly related to or specifically mentioning Storm Release. --ShounenSuki (talk 22:33, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * Kishimoto-sensei. /snicker. Anyway someone's gonna have to give me a good reason not to cause I'm gonna start going kekkei crazy on Crystal and Storm Release.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 23:08, September 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, Kishimoto-sensei. Mangaka are given the title of sensei in Japan, and out of respect of Kishimoto-sensei, I decided to follow suit.
 * Any way, you have my blessing to go wild. I see no reason to not consider those two kekkei genkai. --ShounenSuki (talk 23:41, September 21, 2009 (UTC)

Hand Signs
In the manga it appears that Darui uses a hand sign similar of that to a snake hand sign but sideways maybe it could be that one hand has the lightning release and the other has the water release and hes combining them? Narutosagemaster (talk) 01:55, September 21, 2009 (UTC)

I'll make it simple, then. If it isn't in the manga, the databook, or the anime, then it has no business being in the wiki. You cannot cite a page in the manga, an article in the databook, or an episode in the anime that backs up your claims. Thus, they have no business being in that article, unless they are clearly labeled as being speculation.

advanced natures?
in this talk page, people say 'since we now know how advanced natures work'... is this referring just to the wood release explanation? or has the author actually explained in detail how they work outside of the manga/anime?
 * During the Wood Release explanation, it was also explained that all advanced natures work by combining two basic natures. Like Haku's Ice Release. --ShounenSuki (talk 12:32, September 26, 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, okay, i got that. Thought maybe there was some kind of explanation out there as to how exactly new ones are created.  They are called kekai genkai abilities, but only haku actually had any sort of relatives with the abilities.  Wood only had one person in the whole clan to ever use it, so i don't really see how its "bloodline" if a single person alone has it, should be more like "well its not a bloodline, he was just really special" or something.  The same with crystal release and lava release.  Dosn't make sense to call all the advanced natures 'kekei genkais" when there is only a sole person in the entire clan with the ability
 * Before anything else, those kekkei genkai abilities are called so because they usually come from a bloodline. These abilities come from genetics, as long as you have the genes, you can use them, but it doesn't mean you can. For example, not every Uchiha had the Sharigan, and according to the databook, Shikatsumyako (Kimimaro's bone techniques) only appeared once in a generation. Not everyone has to have them, they're just called "bloodline" techniques cause that's how people naturally come to possess it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:25, September 26, 2009 (UTC)

I hate to open up a potential can of worms, but...
Should the wiki really be stating (in numerous locations) that Storm Release in a hybrid of Lightning Release and Water Release, and presenting it as fact (the actual Storm Release page is the only one which states "seemingly"). This is kinda deceptive, and could be damaging to some people's trust in the wiki if it turns out to be a false assumption. --Xepeyon You Speak, I've Spoken 19:27, November 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * Read ShounenSuki's explanation in the section above. Short of Darui using something other than water, lightning or storm, Storm Release is lightning and water. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:38, November 13, 2009 (UTC)
 * I read that, but it wasn't convincing. And I wasn't sure if people just up and forgot about the article. But, as quoted from the original Wikipedia:

"The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation."

- Wikipedia:Verifiability

The nature of Storm Release has been challenged at least twice now (my opposition included), and the only arguments in defense of the accepted consensus is based on personal observation and deduction. This is original research:

"This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position."

- '''Wikipedia:No original research

Granted, this is not Wikipedia, but the policies are clearly beneficial nonetheless. However convinced you may be, or convincing the circumstances are, I really think presenting the believed nature of Storm Release as fact is deceitful and improper. At best, it would deserve a mention in a "Trivia" or "Behind the scenes" section. --Xepeyon You Speak, I've Spoken 23:57, November 13, 2009 (UTC)


 * Two problems here.


 * First: This is not Wikipedia, so Wikipedia Policies don't mean jack here.
 * Second: As ShounenSuki said, in that mega section above, we have to use everything presented to us, not just the things directly related to what we are trying to figure out.
 * Darui used Water and Lighting Releases, then used Storm Release. A mixture of two elements is required to make an Advanced Release. Because Darui used water and lighting, and then used an advanced nature it is the most plausible explanation.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 00:12, November 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * The first problem is redundant, as I already said; "Granted, this is not Wikipedia, but the policies are clearly beneficial nonetheless." Several wikis incorporate this policy, including Halopedia, the Star Wars wiki, the Heroes wiki, and the Star Craft wiki, and they do so for good reason.


 * And the second point leads back to the policy ignored, but an issue I'm raising nonetheless. There is no reliable evidence, only speculation. There are many forms of speculation, and this is, whether you like it or not, one of them. Trying to figure out something is all well and good, but coming to a conclusion of your own and presenting it as fact is something else.


 * @ Ultimate: Those were two consecutive jutsus. The First Hokage did the same thing several years prior (in our time) when he fought with Orochimaru during the Sound Invasion. --Xepeyon You Speak, I've Spoken 00:27, November 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * Three things.


 * First: It's TheUltimate3. The entire thing or TU3.
 * Second: I don't give two craps what other Wiki's do or not do. Wikipedia Policy don't apply here.
 * Third: Like said before, there is reliable evidence. Look at Yamato's explaination, look at how he manipulates water and earth in each hand, and then makes wood. Then look at Durai. Again, we use all the information from the series, not just what the things dealing directly to what we want to know.
 * What does the First Hokage have to do this? Did he mix water and earth to create wood jutsu in the middle of the fight cause all I remember was him making a giant forest and getting his soul re-killed.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 00:33, November 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * First: ....Okay?


 * Second: I was trying to relate to you how other prominent wikis (all of which were presented as featured wikis before, I believe, and all of which, with the exception of Halo, have been referenced to by their respective franchise as information sources) have seen the value and importance in presenting only what has been established as fact by the franchise. And policy or not, it was my individual argument. In the end, the policies of other wikis have nothing --Enoki911 (talk) 05:17, January 15, 2010 (UTC)to do with it since it is the issue I'm raising personally.


 * Third: There is no reliable evidence, as reliable evidence is a piece of indisputable or otherwise infallible information. This is not that. There is speculation, and there is however well founded you believe it is, assumption. No matter how much sense it may make to you, me, or anyone else, it is not fact until established as such - simple as that.


 * My mistake, it was the Third Hokage did that. Also, could you stop being so defensive? I don't know what, or if, I did anything that put you off, but I'm trying to make an argument without the possibility of sparks flying. --Xepeyon You Speak, I've Spoken 00:50, November 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not being defensive. I just know, until proven otherwise, I am not wrong. Am I being an arrogant prick? Probably. But giving what we know in the series, I am not wrong.
 * We are presenting what has been established. Two elements make an Advanced Nature. Durai has two elements, he then uses an Advanced Nature. The Advance Nature is made of the two Natures. This has been proven within the series, and as what has already been established above, there is NO reason to assume things suddenly change now.
 * I'm gonna stop commenting here, as I know this can go back and forth, and my interest in this is quickly being replaced with a manga I'm itching to read. The floor is open for others to comment.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 00:56, November 14, 2009 (UTC)

Well, first off, I'm glad I didn't offend you.


 * The argument that you're correct until proven wrong if quite flawed because it works both ways. I haven't been proven wrong, so I could assume that I was right until proven otherwise, but I'm not. I wouldn't call you an arrogant prick, but you are coming off as behaving a tad arrogant.
 * Usually, two elements make an advanced nature, true, but we all know that Enton possibly an advanced Fire element, taken to the next level via Amaterasu, not to mention the questions raised from the Dust Release and Crystal Release. Since then, we do have legitimate reason to include the possibility that Storm Release is a form of Lightning release taken to the next level. Is it? I don't know, and won't find out until it's stated in the series.
 * And I wasn't trying to argue this to death, but I really do think posting speculation, and in some places, presenting it as an established fact, is misleading and unbecoming for any wiki. --Xepeyon You Speak, I've Spoken 01:09, November 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * You can qualify its mention elsewhere if you really want to (ie. "Storm Release is presumably a combination of water and lightning"). ~SnapperTo 03:39, November 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, really. This discussion was just trying to make sure that there was nothing definite stated about something unconfirmed, and it turned into a total argument. It's a tad amusing, actually.--Enoki911 (talk) 05:17, January 15, 2010 (UTC)