Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-26958911-20151010214426/@comment-26773508-20151024121603

GreatestSin wrote: @ BakumatsuWarrior

im aware of what you said, and this is why i asked you, did they have constant control of their chakra (like mentaining it the whole time)? (meaning, has there ever been a shinobi shown to stop a genjutsu before having their chakra flow disrupted?), My main assumption is that it is highly unlikely that a vastly lower-tiered shinobi can cast a genjutsu effectively on top-tiered shinobis. To put it another way, I assume that a shinobi needs to overcome the victim's chakra flow in some sense in order to cast a genjutsu.

Think of it as the law of inertia (Newton's First Law of Motion). If an object is at rest, it won't move until an external force acts upon it. But if the object is on Earth's surface, that external force first has to overcome the frictional force of the surface of the Earth, apart from the resistance offered by the mass of the body. Otherwise it won't move. Similarly, I assume that a shinobi's natural chakra flow has a tendency to flow in that certain manner. And in order to cast a genjutsu on a shinobi, the caster must first overcome the resistance offered by the chakra flow, which is a result of the natural tendency of the shinobi's chakra to flow in that particular way. So the genjutsu caster needs certain level of chakra prowess and controlling abilities to "overcome" the victim's chakra flow. At least, that's my assumption.

To put it another way, can Kurenai ever put Hashirama in a genjutsu? We know she cast a genjutsu on Itachi (which he turned against her) but it's quite possible Itachi simply allowed Kurenai to cast a genjutsu upon him, just to toy with her further. Aside from this incident, the manga, to my knowledge, has never really shown any top-tiered character getting genjutsu'd by genins or chunins or fodder jonins. Hiruzen got genjutsu'd by Edo Hashirama in Part 1; Oro got genjutsu'd by Itachi and Sasuke; Itachi genjutsu'd pretty much everyone, yet he still got trapped in such a powerful genjutsu (cast by SM Kabuto) that he needed Sasuke's help to break free from it; Danzo got genjutsu'd by Sasuke; and lastly Pain got genjutsu'd by Ma and Pa. Each of these victims were high-tiered characters. And in each of these cases, the caster of the genjutsu and was in the same tier, if not higher, than the victim.

So the manga shows no precedence of low-tiered shinobis casting genjutsu on high-tiered ones, at least to my knowledge. The exception is Kurenai vs. Itachi in Part 1. But knowing Itachi, he probably simply let that happen. Apart from this, if there are any other examples, then please notify me. I'll stand corrected then.

But if what I said is true i.e. that there's no precedence in the manga of a low-tiered shinobi casting a genjutsu on high-tiered ones, then there are some grounds to think about the disruption of chakra as analogous to the overcoming of friction. In that case, we have little to no basis to assume that Itachi can cast Tsukuyomi on SPSM Naruto. And whether you like it or not, SPSM Naruto's power is now at godly levels compared to Itachi. So Itachi is a low-tiered shinobi in comparison. I hate that this kind of shit happened, but I didn't write the manga, so there's nothing I can do about it.

GreatestSin wrote: your whole argument is based on the fact that naruto became one of the top5 of the verse, than you call them demigods, they are nothing like that, they will age and die, they die if someone severs their heads from their shoulders, they dont have some kind of "lesser beings cant hurt me BS", Demigods in the sense that their power is in a godlike scale. Nowhere did I say they were immortal or invulnerable. You're attacking a straw man here.

btw, even bijuus who are part of the tentails (who is a god or so) can be easily caught in a MS-genjutsu

Well it has been repeatedly stated in the manga that the bijuu are not all that bright. Plus, it has also been suggested that a bijuu's power can be utilised far more efficiently by a jinchuriki, which again suggests that on their own, the bijuu are less efficient. Also, the sharingan is a natural counter to the bijuus. Not to mention that we can consider the bijuus and OP Uchihas like Madara, Obito and Itachi as belonging in the same tier. But either way, this is a good counter-point to my argument and assumptions. So thumbs up!