Talk:Team Kegon

Deletion
This article is being considered for deletion because it has only 1 known member and yet an article like the Kinkaku Force that has absolutely no known members or even been seen in the series is fine. Funny. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 19:58, February 11, 2015 (UTC)


 * Fair point. But the Kinkaku Force article has actual content. This article's only content is its one member. ~SnapperTo 20:00, February 11, 2015 (UTC)
 * Aside from members, this article has more information than Team Jiraiya and Team Orochimaru. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 20:41, February 11, 2015 (UTC)
 * You can tag those if you are so inclined. We're still talking about this article, though, and my question remains: what does this article say that Kegon's article does not? ~SnapperTo 20:59, February 11, 2015 (UTC)
 * This article should stay. It's a valid page that should exist and will probably be expanded in upcoming episodes. --Sajuuk talk 21:13, February 11, 2015 (UTC)
 * This is a different Kegon. Its expansion possibilities are nill. It will only ever be a team article:
 * that appears only in the anime;
 * appears for maybe 10 seconds;
 * has one named member;
 * where that one named member is only named in a random table in a random guide book.
 * ~SnapperTo 21:40, February 11, 2015 (UTC)

It is a team with actual info. we know what the members did. we know the name of the team, what village there from, what gate they were at, what scroll they had etc. the page stays @snapper2:it's valid. Munchvtec (talk) 13:40, February 12, 2015 (UTC)

hoki as a member
if you look at the trivia note on this page it's apparent that hoki was a member of this team. the anime probably thought he was a random character and changed the appearance. he should still be added as a member. Munchvtec (talk) 14:38, February 12, 2015 (UTC)
 * The name "Kegon" comes only from the anime. If, in the anime, two separate appearances of a character look nothing alike, they can't be the same character. ~SnapperTo 18:37, February 13, 2015 (UTC)
 * How would they know that a random side character was named? Of course he has a different appearance. If we put two and two together. It is 100% Hoki. Munchvtec (talk) 16:30, October 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * @Snapper: Nejiri.--Omojuze (talk) 16:54, October 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * My point was not that he looks different in the manga than in the anime. My point was that the anime's version of Hoki does not look like any of the anime's members of this team. Therefore, they can't be the same people. ~SnapperTo 17:20, October 3, 2015 (UTC)
 * The anime has a habit of changing the appearances of random characters, just look at | this and | this. There not a bunch of new participants, its just the anime didn't care enough to depict them the same. No different for Hoki and a member on this team. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 12:02, October 4, 2015 (UTC)

Deletion Part 2
Solved the whole deletion issue. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 09:01, October 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * Adding trivia points about what the team didn't do isn't new content. What little information the article actually has is only repeating the table found here. ~SnapperTo 15:56, October 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * Trivia is relevant here, and serves no purpose on the Chūnin Exams article. And anyway, visual information is still information, which cant be found on the Chūnin Exams article. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 16:28, October 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * The first trivia point is true of many teams, and therefore has no value.
 * The second trivia point is speculative. Who's to say Hoki and his team decided not to sign the release forms, and therefore didn't participate? Trying to include him is desperate grasping for content.
 * Their appearance is insignificant. As you point out in the above topic, their design is so unimportant and so generic that the anime can't even be bothered to be consistent about it.
 * ~SnapperTo 17:34, October 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * Remove the Hoki trivia then. The other trivia point is valid, as there the only known team that's not present in | this. And even so, having similar trivia points on multiple articles doesn't make the trivia any less of value to this article.
 * There appearance is insignificant to studio pierrot, not the wiki. Its quite bizarre that a user would have to go to another website to find out what the members look like if this article were to be deleted. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 18:38, October 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * But they're not known. This article is taking two unrelated piece of information and mashing them together for the sake of having something to do. What's bizarre is anyone seriously believing this article is supposed to be representative of anything or that anyone anywhere needs to know what this nothing team looks like. ~SnapperTo 19:49, October 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * The team is unnamed, not unknown. And the wiki has no issue with combining unrelated info, hence Team Shigeri.--Sarutobii2 (talk) 20:24, October 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * One bad article at a time, please. Evaluate the article on its own merits, not the existence of other bad articles. ~SnapperTo 21:18, October 4, 2015 (UTC)

@snapper: regardless of what you have to say and i'm sure there isn't much more. The facts state that Hoki is indeed a member. They were not aware of a "Hoki" or that a "Team Kegon" existed at that point in time so of course the appearance would differ. Therefore we now also know two members, kegon and Hoki so let it be. Munchvtec (talk) 11:53, October 6, 2015 (UTC)
 * If this articles existence was an issue, it would of long been deleted. I don't see a problem with it. --Bio havik (talk) 12:06, October 6, 2015 (UTC)
 * The fact that it was not deleted earlier is not an excuse to keep it now. The anime book lists 17 teams, yet this is the only one with an article. Its existence is unnecessary as it has no information that sets it apart from the other 16 teams, all of which seem to manage being included in the table here. ~SnapperTo 16:50, October 10, 2015 (UTC)
 * Except it does have information that sets it apart from that article as already mentioned. Its just not to your approval. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 17:40, October 12, 2015 (UTC)
 * Not to mention this team actually has an image of all three members unlike the other teams. So yeah, they are quite different. Munchvtec (talk) 11:47, October 13, 2015 (UTC)
 * So it has been decided then? The article stays as it is? If so, the deletion request can be taken down. A Wkia contributor (talk) 10:13, October 16, 2015 (UTC)
 * I already took it down once but they are stubborn so....i have no clue. Munchvtec (talk) 11:59, October 16, 2015 (UTC)


 * The article is not up to the wiki's standards:
 * The body paragraph repeats another article, as I've mentioned numerous times.
 * For the trivia point, the wiki is not in the habit of noting absences or things that are unknown; User:Paladin78 adds such trivia points regularly and they are regularly removed.
 * What you are left with is a picture that certain users have decided to say is this team. Ignoring the original research for a moment, the picture does not warrant an article as it is impossible to document every single unknown team that appears in the series. ~SnapperTo 15:16, October 16, 2015 (UTC)
 * This is 100% Team Kegon. Munchvtec (talk) 16:17, October 16, 2015 (UTC)
 * This discussion isn't moving forward one bit. Personally, I agree with the information being very scarce, but we have other team articles with no real input a well. I don't see why we should make an exeption here. A Wkia contributor (talk) 07:32, October 17, 2015 (UTC)
 * If you believe another article is not up to the wiki's standards then tag that article for deletion. Do not use its existence to justify keeping other bad articles. ~SnapperTo 16:15, October 17, 2015 (UTC)
 * This article is to the wiki's approval, as no one else from the wiki is trying to delete it aside from 1 user. Unless there's a policy this article is violating, this discussion is pointless. --Bio havik (talk) 17:07, October 17, 2015 (UTC)
 * Then how to proceed? This shouldn't go on for so long, should we have a forum discussion which may get the attention of more users? A Wkia contributor (talk) 04:11, October 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * If the admins are going to waste there time cracking down on this article and then tell us to just basically look over all the other bad ones. what? If you're going to do this to one then go through them all or leave it. It also doesn't make sense. What exactly makes this article pointless? Why is it bad? Munchvtec (talk) 12:13, October 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * I can only repeat the issues with this article so many times. So instead I'll just give a link to one of my previous explanations: here. ~SnapperTo 15:53, October 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * Except we are not making article for every single unknown team. This is a named team. How exactly is it unknown? It being a team that most users wont know about isn't a valid reason to not have the article. I'm sure users aren't going to read the entire Chūnin Exams page to find out about this. Having a page to make people aware is a valid reason to keep it. Along with the other reasons given. Your reasoning being, this teams info is already on another article is dumb considering each and every single team page here is just repeated info. Munchvtec (talk) 15:57, October 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * There are 16 other teams that also are listed in that table and that also do not have articles. There is no reason for this one to be an exception. If the information present in another article suffices for those 16 teams then it can suffice for this one too.
 * Other team articles also have the benefit of linking multiple characters together. As in known members. This article has no known members and therefore doesn't serve any particular purpose other than giving an excuse to display an image somewhere. ~SnapperTo 16:17, October 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * Kegon and Hoki. Anyways, you say that an image doesn't really count as being MORE information then the other teams that don't have pages. Half of our articles don't serve a particular purpose. So i honestly see that argument as invalid. Munchvtec (talk) 17:07, October 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * @Snapper On the topic of valid team articles, why did you delete Team Yudachi out of the blue? --Sarada Uzumaki (talk) 02:19, October 21, 2015 (UTC)

Not that I want to be throwing fuel on this fire, but I have been gathering a lot of data on chunin exams, and as it stands, Team Kegon is the only Takigakure team present in the second exam. Hoki is confirmed to have passed the first exam. Now having double checked the manga, only 26 teams should be present in the second exam, the anime lists 27, but assuming that we terefore have the full compliment, it stands to reason that Hoki, who passed, is a part of the one accounted for team in the second exam. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 02:45, October 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * And it is fine for you, as a fan of the series, to arrive at that conclusion. But that conclusion is original research, which the wiki can't use. The wiki presents known information and nothing more. It needs actual evidence that Hoki is a member of this team. It needs actual evidence that the team in this picture is Team Kegon. This article has no evidence beyond the information already present in another article and therefore has no reason to be kept. ~SnapperTo 15:27, October 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, there is no rule that says we can't use it. We don't have to follow every single little thing wikia says. A wikia can literally be made up of thousands of dumb, useless, little pages if the admins want that. It's up to you what happens on "THIS" wikia. Considering i made talk pages for other pages like this and you along with other admins have ignored them just makes me think, what do you have against this particular article. There's onviously something if you won't contribute to the other discussions. Munchvtec (talk) 15:31, October 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * You made those topics two days ago. If nobody objects to your proposal(s) after a certain period of time I (or another sysop) will delete the articles per those topics. ~SnapperTo 16:19, October 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * Addressing the reason that was given with the deletion tag: 1 Kegon is a known member and 2 "Sometime after crossing paths with Team 10", debut, team appearance and trivia all not shown here. The reason for the deletion tag is invalid. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 01:52, October 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * If collecting information and reaching a conclusion based on that is considered "invalid original research", then all the deductions that were made where Kishi didn't write it down in bold letters are the same. For example, the deduction about the natures that create Explosion Release or Magnet Release. A Wkia contributor (talk) 03:42, October 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * Quite true. But those articles still have merit without the OR. This one doesn't.
 * As to Sarutobii2's points:
 * Everything that can objectively be said about Kegon is present in the other article. His apparent existence is no defense whatsoever.
 * Which is OR, by the by. Even ignoring that, so what? There are an innumerable number of background characters that cross paths with main characters. That intersection of the two by itself is not reason enough for an article. If it were, why don't we have an article for the Ame team that Naruto offended at the start of the exams? Or the random person that Naruto sat next to while eating ramen that one time? Or some of these? The wiki cannot possibly document every imaginable detail of the series.
 * ~SnapperTo 16:36, October 24, 2015 (UTC)

Well i guess if we cant agree, then leave it to what the community wants. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 08:02, October 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Now back to Hoki being a member. I believe snapper said that his team could have dropped out of the second part of the exam. As there was only one taki team that was seen/participated in the exam it would have to be "his" team. If his team did drop out then there would not be a Takigakure team in the second exam and there would be one less team on the list. Which there isn't. Munchvtec (talk) 12:47, October 28, 2015 (UTC)