Board Thread:Naruto Discussions/@comment-34700383-20180829185752/@comment-34700383-20180831085741

LegionZero wrote:

1 Im not equating them. I was pointing out the differences and which one signifies which.

I gave you the manga’ established differences here: Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote: I don’t have to speculate about Naruto eyes for frog sage mode. I can point to the exact moment where manga establishes to look at his eye for proof of sagehood. Similarly I can point out to you the exact moment in the manga where madara acknowledges proof of Naruto rikudo sagehood. They were proven in different ways, that is fact. Attempting to prove them in the same way results in Fallacy. Manga nor databook has any mention of Naruto’ eyes being even slightly relevant to rsm. Yet against you better judgement you insist it does. Show me where it is explicitly stated that his eye have any relevance to rsm. The same way I can prove it for his other form. Just a heads up, rikudo senjutus didn’t effect Obito’ nor madara eyes, but good luck.

LegionZero wrote: 2 Naruto's eyes are relivent to SPSM because its the only time they ever take that color and pattern. It wasnt explicitly stated but it was explicitely shown. No other time do his eyes have that color and pattern. The databook a picture of Naruto when he kicked the TSB while in SPSM.

Madara mentions that Naryto came back different and Naruto turns around with his new eye pattern and says that he can feel everything. Which is an attribute of SPSM This is wrong again. You admittedly are interpreting a shown image without context, you’re guessing. I’m not. The eyes have no proven significance. On top of all that, you failed to realize that Naruto saved guy using his rikudo hand seal. That power is not part of rsm, and that’s what madara was initially reacting to. Madara even looked at guy’ 8th gate and noticed how it managed to be preserved. Again that was done by Naruto using the rikudo seal not rsm. That power relied on rikudo chakra not rikudo senjutsu, there is a clear difference. Iirc, the seals were explained on different pages in the databook.

LegionZero wrote: Obito and Madara had dojutsu that that overide other eyes. They also awakened their powers through a different process.

But please do tell when anyone had yellow, crass patterned eyes for any other reason

Now you’re just speculating. For one, regardless of how you attain rikudo senjutsu/ juubi chakra, with enough of it the result will always be the same. Obito, madara, hagoromo, and kaguya each gained a significant amount juubi chakra through different methods, yet the same powers resulted from it. So you’re wrong.

LegionZero wrote: It does not say that. It says that kicking the TSB is a feat pulled off by having more chakra than KCM. Hagoromo gave him 6 Paths chakra, which provides a boost strong enough to bring Sasuke to Madara's level. This boost would apply to Naruto as well who already has more chakra than Sasuke. Then Naruto uses SPSM which has an even greater boost than regular Sage Mode. You’ve restated counter 1 from the OP.

LegionZero wrote: This point is disproven when all 6 literally came back to him later on. They didnt form. They moved to him. All he would have to do is wait for them to fall back down to him because he didnt move from his spot. So your rebuttal is that TSOs, whos natural state is to be suspended in mid air, will somehow succumb to gravity? You have to know that isn’t accurate, right? Iirc madara had to extend his hand call his last TSOs from a distance away to throw it at guy.

LegionZero wrote: That is pure speculation. The only time this ever happened was with Obito. Anyone whos spirit manifested through chakra was identicle to their appearence at the time of death (Kushina, Minato, Hagoromo, Hamura). So then I guess ashura(and indra) died really young, since they were shown clinging to Naruto(and Sasuke).

LegionZero wrote: That doesnt matter because its not necissary to have Juubi chakra for TSB, SPSM is. Hamura never had Juubi chakra but his own set of TSB that followed him into death as well. There’s is no way to prove you’re claim wrong nor right. I could easy make a similar claim to support my own stance. Hamura and his descendants have powers of unexplained origin. You can‘t use them here because of that uncertainty.

LegionZero wrote: This was never stated. Hagoromo said he could manifest because Madara recreated his chakra. It was never ever stated he got TSB by making new ones from Madara's body. They manifested because Hagoromo retained them in death. This was shown. It was also shown with Hamura You missed the part where hagoromo explicated states more than his own chakra is required for him to reenter the living world. Madara’ torso both met and exceeded those requirements. Yet he was still weakened because he gave his power to Naruto and Sasuke. Which further proves that those TSO being produced were largely due to juubi chakra that he just acquired from madara. As rikudo chakra alone doesn’t produce TSOs, if that were true madara would’ve gotten it the moment he awakened rinnegan. As that was a result of achieving recreated rikudo chakra. Also edo madara would’ve gained TSOs as kabuto made him also achieve ‘fake’ rinnegan. So you’re wrong.

LegionZero wrote: Kaguya has abilities that Madara didnt. Creating brand new TSB is unique to her

Unless you are trying to say Madara had Byakugan, Ash Bone, Dimensional travel and every other one of Kaguya's powers. Which he didnt.

You’re wrong again because kaguya could only be revived with the juubi’ power. She literally took over his vessel, and absorbed some chakra from infinite tsukuyomi. Not to mention she remained massively weakened because half her chakra was still missing. This is because she was revived entirely without hamura chakra, she was without more than half of her divided power during the 4th war. Yet she still produced a TSO variant. Which we know isn’t possible with chakra from the those captured by infinite tsukuyomi, but rather the juubi’ chakra.

LegionZero wrote: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vestige

I’m not having an issue with the definition. The issue here is the lack of context, which is evident that you have. I’m not leaving anything to interpretation, nor does the OP operate in vagueness. No instead I’ve provided sources, and evidence to my statements. So while I do appreciate the link, that doesn’t help you gain context to further understand which definition is most fitting. This is why I suggested giving example of vestiges that are similar to that which describes the former biju fragments. Did you think of any? I gave 2 examples.

CombatIQmatters wrote: I'm not understanding something. I think Vlad's first post explained everything clearly.

1. Naruto clearly was in SPSM when he rescued guy, the change in his eye pattern is enough to show that. I'm pretty sure that's just a sage mode enhancement possible by using hagomoro's six path chakra + having all 9 bijuu within you.

2. naruto uses lava rasenshuriken (Goku's power) in SPSM which nearly bisected madara. It makes sense he can use this because he has all the bijuu chakra, and has learned how to tap into each.

3. Naruto activates his KCM cloak giving him BSPSM. His 6 paths senjutsu gives rise to his truthseeking orb.

4. the only difference between naruto versus obito and madara is that naruto had SPSM, while they only had six paths senjutsu. madara wasn't a sage mode user, he only had sm through hashiboob, and obito doesn't use sage mode either. We don't know how a dojutsu user's eye pattern with sage mode would look like.

So, what is the problem? 1. That wrong because anywhere that 9 biju chakra were gathered it resulted in the same power, rikudo senjutsu. The hallmarks always the same. Naruto factually waited until his level of this power has large enough to enter rsm. It’s not the enhancement, it’s the requirement. His eyes were never in any way indicated to be a requirement for rsm. Madara acknowledged that rikudo senjutsu was requirement.

2. This was during the period where Naruto was increasing his rikudo senjutsu, since this requires all 9 biju chakra it makes sense that he’d start using them now that he has a form which requires it. Naruto had goku’ power previously, but he didn’t use it then. There was no form he had that required it.

3. You restated counter 3, this was debunked already.

4. You are only proving my point. Obito and madara were juubi jinchuriki that was their source of rikudo senjutsu. Well guess what, Naruto was(essentially) also a juubi jinchuriki. That means his source of rikudo senjutsu was similar to theirs. Similar in that they each had gained all 9 biju chakra. Those 9 chakra were acquired each aquired without any help from hagoromo. The mode itself only works with juubi’ chakra. Which is why Naruto waited until enough was produced so he can use it. Hagromo himself acknowledge the existence of all 9 biju inside Naruto. All this was stated in the OP.