Talk:Shikotsumyaku

Of the Kaguya Clan
I think the phrase "of the Kaguya Clan" should be removed because I don't think Shikotsumyaku was their Bloodline Limit. Here's the reasons why.
 * 1. Kimimaro was the only one who possessed it
 * 2. In the Third Naruto Databook, it was revealed that Kimimaro's surname isn't Kaguya (but it didn't reveal his actual surname), so it's possible that he didn't come from the Kaguya Clan, but was taken in by them.
 * 3. Kimimaro looks nothing like the Kaguya Clan members. They all had black hair and didn't have those red marks under their eyes. This adds to my beief that Kimimaro didn't come from the Kaguya Clan. QF 744 17:04
 * Kimimaro isn't featured in the third databook. You mean the second.
 * His article in the second databook literally states he was a member of the Kaguya clan
 * Just because he doesn't have/use Kaguya as his last name doesn't mean he isn't a member of that clan. Look at tsunade, Nawaki, and Konohamaru. None of them have been given a family name, yet it's almost without a doubt what clans they belong to.
 * Shikotsumyaku was literally stated to be the Kekkei Genkai of the Kaguya clan. There is no doubt, no speculation, no possible argument.
 * --ShounenSuki 23:11, 26 November 2008 (UTC

Kimimaro wasn't the only one in the clan with the ability, at 6:25 in season 127 of the anime you can see the pile of Kaguya bodies, quite a few have (admittedly smaller) bone spikes. 71.62.115.72 (talk) 16:28, November 28, 2009 (UTC)

I think the anime stated that Kimimaro was just the most talented in using Shikotsumyaku in the entire Kaguya Clan which was the reason for his hard treatment Keibatsu (talk) 11:16, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

He was the most skilled in battle, precisely because of the Shikotsumyaku. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:37, June 27, 2010 (UTC)

Regeneration?
Does anyone know if Shikotsumyaku gives the user the ability to regenerate? Kimimaro seemed to be able to regenerate from being crushed by Gaara.--Endomarru (talk) 01:39, August 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * He resisted it by using the power of his Cursed Seal of Earth. The Shikotsumyaku does allow some healing, you can see that his skin always closes up after he pulls bones. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:49, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

But didn't he already have holes in his cheeks and stuff?--Endomarru (talk) 20:05, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Nope. The only sort of marking he has is the two red dots in his forehead, which has nothing to do with the kekkei genkai. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:33, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

I meant after he got crushed by sand coffin.--Endomarru (talk) 21:35, August 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * As if he had removed bones, enhanced by the Cursed Seal of Earth. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:40, August 13, 2010 (UTC)

Um... Could you please explain a bit more...--96.42.3.75 (talk) 05:28, August 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Kimimaro already had some healing because of his kekkei genkai, but when Gaara started beating him, he had to use his Cursed Seal of Earth, which enhances his abilities, including his healing. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:21, August 15, 2010 (UTC)

So he had minor regeneration, but it was enhanced by his Cursed Seal?--Endomarru (talk) 04:34, August 16, 2010 (UTC)

name
how can anyone even know the name of the clan's kekkei genkai


 * It's named in the second databook. ~SnapperTo 21:07, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

I just got my hands on the third Naruto Anime Profiles Episodes 81-135 for Christmas. On page 155, Kimimaro's page, his Kekkei Genkai, is the Corpse Bone Chain. Should we put this someone in the article?-- Ninja Sheik  19:49, December 26, 2010 (UTC)

Speaking of names, why haven't we ever moved this to the literal translation? I know there are certain names we keep in Japanese for known reasons such as it being related to mythology (MS techniques) or else the Japanese name being vastly more known/popular (Rasengan/Chidori)), but why this one? I'm not asking for this to be moved, but I am curious. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:39, January 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * From my understanding, Kekkei Genkai's names weren't going to be changed. Sharingan, Byakugan, Shikotsumyaku, ect being straight kekkei genkai weren't to be changed. The reason the various kekkei genkai nature transformations were changed was to make them fit with other releases. Having Water Release and then next to it Mokuton would be odd for example.--TheUltimate3 ~Aspect of Wiki ~ 04:09, January 3, 2011 (UTC)

Iron Sand notwithstanding, that's a fitting reason. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 04:12, January 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * You know, Iron Sand, following this format should be changed I believe. However, me being the lazy bastard I am, will probably not make a big deal out of it right now.--TheUltimate3 ~Aspect of Wiki ~ 05:28, January 3, 2011 (UTC)

So Corpse Bone Chain is Viz translation from anime profiles?--LeafShinobi (talk) 22:27, February 18, 2011 (UTC)

" the bones can withstand even a chakra-infused blade "
Where does it state that if Kimimaro went toe to toe with say, Asuma, that his bones would be able to combat the chakra infused blades? He A) Never fought someone whith this ability and B) Hasn't even implied that he could. Could someone tell me where this is said or shown because I'm thinking that some major Fan managed to sneak some BS into the Wiki.

--66.81.122.243 (talk) 02:53, March 15, 2011 (UTC)BB


 * Do you even read the manga? Hmm.. I'll add a ref anyway.  ~ Fmakck© → Talk → Contributions ~ 02:58, March 15, 2011 (UTC)

Oops... I even read that chapter today. Sorry, I didn't notice that the sword was chakra infused. Thanks! BB--66.81.122.243 (talk) 03:10, March 15, 2011 (UTC)


 * No problem.  ~ Fmakck© → Talk → Contributions ~ 12:04, March 15, 2011 (UTC)

Picture
Can someone please add some picture for this kekkei genkai? 119.154.25.117 (talk) 11:19, January 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * There is one already. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 11:32, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

I think you misunderstood what I meant, the little picture that appears alongside stuff like Hiden or Kekkei Genkai like the Nara sign in the classification category in the infoboxes. 119.154.25.117 (talk) 11:57, January 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Then you have to ask ShounenSuki if he can make one. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 12:02, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

Unnamed technique
In the manga chapter 215 and the anime episode 126, Kimimaro created a bone layer underneath the skin to protect him form Gaara's Sand Binding Coffin. Should a Jutsu article be created for this? Not sure is if would be considered an "armour" since it is under the skin instead of over it. Any suggestions? --Sorrel (talk) 18:08, May 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Not too keen on the creation of an unnamed technique especially with Kimimaro and his abilities having been covered by databooks already. So i'd go with mentioning it in this article, drop some references and go in peace.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 18:13, May 20, 2012 (UTC)

yes but this wiki has made articles for unnamed techniques before in the manga even though they were never named, however i think that usage of the shikotsumyaku can be covered in the abilities section of kimimaro's page or the shikotsumyaku page.98.26.240.179 (talk) 23:46, May 20, 2012 (UTC)yomiko-chan
 * This wiki's trying to cut down on the unnamed/nameless articles though.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 23:57, May 20, 2012 (UTC)

In addition to what Cerez said about us cutting back, Kimimaro didn't speak of that as if it were a specific technique. As I recall, he simply said "I would've been crushed had I not created a layer of dense bone directly underneath my skin..." Not every usage of his Kekkai Genkai is a specific technique. Skitts (talk) 00:18, May 21, 2012 (UTC)

Medical Treatment
Kabuto mentions that he could he could heal Kimimaro is he had the Kaguya Clan's medical history or treatment data. This implies that the clan has had Shikotsumyaku users aside from Kimimaro and that there are methods of special treatment developed for them. I think we should add this to either trivia or the article, about the Kaguya having had these items(I only know that he said this in the manga, may be diffrent in the anime). Skarrj (talk) 00:55, May 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Though I don't think that's necessary to mention exactly, the statement on the article page is a bit misleading and should be changed.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 01:08, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Not Kaguya's Kekkei Mora
The data book says her Kekkei Mora is different from, and more powerful than, Shikotsumyaku. Shikotsumyaku is a less powerful descendant of her original power. FF-Suzaku (talk) 18:14, November 5, 2014 (UTC)

"Citation Needed"
So is anyone going to cite the last sentence that calls this the ultimate taijutsu ability? Or should it just be removed? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 17:46, September 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * I recall having seen that somewhere else before. It's either from the databook entry, or from when Kabuto and Orochimaru are discussing Kimimaro after he leaves to retrieve Sasuke. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:17, September 7, 2015 (UTC)

Chapter 201 Page 16-17 and it was also in DB2 labeled as the ultimate taijutsu ability. QuakingStar (talk) 18:50, September 7, 2015 (UTC) I don't know how to use citations, so can someone else take care of it then? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 20:14, September 7, 2015 (UTC)

Ninjutsu or Taijutsu?
Is it taijutsu or Ninjutsu? It is called "the ultimate Taijutsu ability", yet classified as Ninjutsu.... -_- Man with No Name 05:49, December 3, 2016 (UTC)
 * In the databook, it's only classified as kekkei genkai, which is considered a secondary classification. The books didn't start giving kekkei genkai primary classifications (ninjutsu, taijutsu, or genjutsu) until databook 3. So we don't really have an official classification to go by, unfortunately.--BeyondRed (talk) 12:05, December 3, 2016 (UTC)
 * Not sure why it's classified as Ninjutsu. It's technically just manipulation of a special body, should be Taijutsu--Elve Talk Page 15:45, December 3, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, Kimimaro used at least one Shikotsumyaku technique classified as a ninjutsu, so I think ninjutsu label should stay anyway, although taijutsu label should be surely added to it, since all the remaining techniques of his are classified as taijutsu. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 15:51, December 3, 2016 (UTC)
 * I've seen this discussed before, never really followed said discussion though. Nintaijutsu? Munchvtec (talk) 18:08, December 3, 2016 (UTC)
 * Shikotsumyaku is a Ninjutsu applied to Taijutsu.--Sharingan91 (talk) 20:10, December 3, 2016 (UTC)

Orochimaru?
The infobox lists him as a user, but I don't recall any reference to him having it or remember seeing him use it, so where does that one come from?--Hawkeye2701 (talk) 01:19, July 7, 2019 (UTC)
 * Sigh, he has been listed as a user for years now. Funny how we don't list Naruto and Sasuke as Wood Release users, but we list Orochimaru as having those kekkei genkai and powers on the premise, that since his form got reconstructed from Kabuto's altered flesh, he obtained those powers or so. I love how we treat speculation with a healthy dose of double standard.--Elve Talk Page 14:42, July 7, 2019 (UTC)
 * Weird. I mean, I sorta get him having Wood Release after he took over the Zetsu clone and I think there was a mention of him using it to augment his control over the Hokage (Not 100% and can't be assed checking it right now), but getting regened from a chunk of Kabuto, who had to use Sakon & Ukon's bloodline just to duplicate Kimimaro's seems like a stretch.--Hawkeye2701 (talk) 15:55, July 7, 2019 (UTC)
 * It absolutely is. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:04, July 7, 2019 (UTC)
 * Tobirama is the one who sensed his body having Hashirama's cells I think. The issue is that every option regarding this topic is a stretch. Kabuto managed to graft the kekkei genkai to himself, he used them, no question there. Now look at the options. You can say that he didn't get any of those abilities because he's never displayed them. Except not long after that, when Orochimaru takes over the Hashirama cell enhanced White Zetsu, Tobirama mentions those cells being responsible for the increased control over the Edo Tensei. Why wouldn't have he retained Kabuto-flesh abilities if he could acquire the ones from the Zetsu flesh? Then adding another layer of complication, there's the fact the Kabuto flesh was collected and grafted to Anko's cursed seal through Jugo's ability. We know he can change his own cells when he donates his flesh to heal others like he did with Sasuke, but the bit of flesh he grafted into Anko's cursed seal was still scaly, altered, and snake like when the graft was done, how Kabuto was, so it's not like that hints at it being changed. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:35, July 8, 2019 (UTC)
 * Let's consider then, that perhaps, possibly, he (or rather it as some would have it around here) indeed does have those fancy powers, why don't we treat Naruto and Sasuke's case the same then?--Elve Talk Page 11:43, July 8, 2019 (UTC)

I did some research to try and figure this out. In chapter 593, when Orochimaru revives, he does come back from a lump of scaly flesh, this is true, and then he takes his, and only his chakra from Kabuto, returning Kabuto to non-scaly self. So the scaly bits are seemingly related directly to Orochimaru and not the other people Kabuto absorbed (More on that later)

Then in chapter 620 we get that Hashirama and Tobirama both can apparently tell that Orochimaru is mostly made up of Hashi cells (With some focus required, meaning it wasn't immediately apparent, at least to Tobirama) How this works in relation to chakra sensing and figuring out his cellular makeup, especially since none of them have a dojutsu that might explain some further analytical powers, I have no idea.

In chapter 627 Sasuke and co. go out into the village, Karin basically immediately shows up because she sensed Sasuke, but sadly we don't get any data on her sensing besides that here, though I will note it seems to take her a minute to realise Orochimaru is there, but even then doesn't seem totally surprised, so that could mean she either didn't sense him correctly, or did, or was just so engrossed in Sasuke she didn't care.

Fast forward all the way to chapter 667, this is where I think it's worth noting. Karin sensed somebody weird by Sasuke and when its revealed to be Kabuto, she notes that his chakra is totally different and Orochimaru explains that Kabuto heavily modified himself with other people's chakra.

With all this, the fact that two other sensors, Hashirama and Tobirama seem to recognise Orochimaru as largely made up of Hashirama at this point, but Karin didn't draw any parallels between Kabuto's weird mixed up chakra and Orochimaru's, makes me think he just didn't get enough of Kabuto's genetic soup to create a significant difference and the majority of the material from Sasuke's evil releasing method was from the curse seal and Orochimaru's part of Kabuto.

Whether or not any of you find this to be a convincing argument, I don't know, and while I would generally agree that Orochimaru gains the ability to do whatever the hell his host can, his revival from Kabuto/Anko seems very similar to how he was drawn out of Sasuke by Itachi, so I don't think he inherited anything in particular from these two any more than he did from Sasuke.--Hawkeye2701 (talk) 20:05, July 8, 2019 (UTC)

Sensing isn't an issue. We know that sensors can have some knowledge of who people are based on chakra. Mu could tell that members of the Allied Shinobi Forces were from different villages through sensing alone, and when Tobirama met Karin, he could tell she was an Uzumaki by her chakra. Something else you mentioned before is him manifesting the pseudo-body doubles for stuff like Shikotsumyaku. That would be a good argument, but we saw that between all the stuff he juiced himself up with, it included stuff from Taka, and he didn't need to manifest fake bodies to use stuff from Suigetsu, Jugo, and Karin. This is certainly out of universe speculation, but I think him manifesting the bodies of Sound Five is more Kishimoto thinking readers wouldn't remember which Sound Five member had each ability than Kabuto actually needing to do it to perform them and being very unsubtle about it. I mean, why would he need to manifest a Jirobo copy to use Earth Release: Earth Shore Return? That's not even kekkei genkai or hiden. I think this can go on the "Kishimoto doesn't care about internal consistency so why should we" pile. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:56, July 8, 2019 (UTC)
 * I doubt he needed to manifest them as well, I think it was simply a demonstration to Itachi and Sasuke. @Hawk, by the mere virtue of Kabuto having Orochimaru's cells, his chakra should be partially made up of his own, Orochimaru's + all those other people whose blood he juiced. The chakra that Orochimaru took from Kabuto, was his own Senjutsu chakra that Kabuto had drained from Anko's Curse Mark, meaning Kabuto still should have Orochimaru's chakra in his mix. Anyway, we still don't have proof that Orochimaru has Kimimaro's KKG etc. but in my headcanon, he does. The only 'evidence' I can think of that might support it, is that his true form changed after his revival to more closely resemble Kabuto's--Elve Talk Page 11:25, July 9, 2019 (UTC)

I think one of Elveonora's earlier points was: why does the wiki treat this as proven fact when it clearly is not? It doesn't matter how probable one or more editors may think something is if they can't provide a clear reference confirming it. Otherwise, as Elveonora said, the wiki could add any number of other likely-but-unconfirmed statements to the wiki's articles. ~SnapperTo 08:28, July 10, 2019 (UTC)
 * Well, at this point, it's difficult to even track down all unconfirmed things we state as true.... double standard for speculation in articles has been present for years.--Elve Talk Page 18:55, July 10, 2019 (UTC)
 * The only thing I'm aware of us is the composition natures for certain kekkei genkai, but those articles at least present the information as unconfirmed. This and Orochimaru's article present his possession of Shikotsumyaku as proven fact.
 * I would think, as a rule, that the wiki shouldn't be having any speculation at all. Because the wiki's goal is to document the series as it is, not as it might be. I'd be interested to know what other bits of speculation you're aware of on the wiki. ~SnapperTo 20:41, July 10, 2019 (UTC)