User talk:Omnibender/Elemental recomposition table

Laws of recomposition?
I think there should be certain standards of making theories, just so we can get a close guess or idea. First, I don't agree that much with Smoke or Light, which I have thought of before. Smoke is actually created while Fire is burning, and therefore is kind of inherent to it. Ice, Wood, Lava, Storm, Boil, and Dust were all new, different elements, and were not inherent to their components, even symbolically. Fire already produces Smoke, and both Fire and Lightning emit Light, which makes me doubt those two elements. Something that has the properties of both Fire and Wind, yet is unique from the two would make sense. It is still possible that the new nature would manipulate smoke, but it would have a different name for symbolic purposes. --GoDai (talk) 05:33, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm thinking of something comtaining the most improtant properties of Fire (heat/combustion) and Wind (pressure/cutting/grinding), and I imagine wind with a mirage-like look, which is superheated air that cuts through things. --GoDai (talk) 21:39, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Like Cloud Release? --Sennoman (talk) 13:04, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Cloud has more to do with water than fire. Smoke is the only thing I found which I believe fits the combo, other than the not-so-likely ash alternative. The reason I listed smoke is because while it can happen with fire alone, it happens much more when there is fire and it's being fanned. I already have radiation and plasma listed as alternatives for Fire and Lightning, I just put light as the main one because out of the three, it's the one I consider more of an element. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:58, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think he might have meant Cloud Release controlling clouds of smoke, but having the name just for symbollic purposes. Either way, that's not what I really meant. For example, Ice, Wood, Lava, Storm, Boil, and Dust are all distinct from their basic component natures, and are not inherent to them. None of those advanced elements happen at all with only one component. Smoke happens with one component, even if not in the most effective way. It has to be something that requires both, and cannot be used by normal people with Fire and Wind natures separately. --GoDai (talk) 22:04, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Depends on what you consider smoke. The first sentence of the article on smoke at wikipedia is as follows: "Smoke is the collection of airborne solid and liquid particulates and gases emitted when a material undergoes combustion or pyrolysis, together with the quantity of air that is entrained or otherwise mixed into the mass". Emphasis is mine. Symbolism aside, wind is air in movement, so in a sense, wind is required for smoke. And if you think about it, air, or at least oxygen is required for the fire to combust. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:12, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * But that kind of sounds like something that can be done through a collaboration justu of Fire and Wind. Anyway, I guess that's pretty good. I just think there's something obvious, but I just can't think of it. --GoDai (talk) 22:15, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Smoke was the obvious thing for me. It was a suggestion by an unregistered user. It fit perfectly. When I searched classical elements in popular culture at wikipedia, I saw that Dungeons and Dragons also has Fire and Wind/Air making Smoke. That sealed the deal to me. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:38, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

That's one of the things that made me guess Smoke first, but D&D uses something that resembles the Greek/Western classical elements (Air, Fire, Water, Earth), and so Water+Earth=Ooze, and other than smoke, ice, lava, or ooze, 8 other combinations are available through positive and negative. In Japanese culture, air is just empty space, and wind is a separately existing substance or force that travels through empty space. The idea is a little different. --GoDai (talk) 22:45, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * I saw the positive and negative as well, but just the fact somewhere the combination exists somewhere felt like a positive sign. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:49, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I guess so, but how about compressed, superheated air? --GoDai (talk) 22:59, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Patterns
There are some patterns seen in the formation of the advanced natures, which could aid in figuring out unknown ones.
 * Chakra is changed in the two ways that the two components are transformed at the same time. Example: Lava could be formed by superheating and changing the density-like mud-and composition of chakra at the same time.
 * The result is something that is the only obvious new product that could be formed. Example: Earth+Water is Wood, not mud, as mud is only a mixed form of the two which can be produced by using the two natures separately, or just Earth in Naruto.
 * The result is not inherent to jutsu of the already-existing basic element. Example: (In canon) Water jutsu cannot create ice or bright fluid energy, Earth cannot create wood or manipulate molecules, Fire cannot create lava, etc.
 * This is why I doubt Light and Smoke, even though they are good theories. A Fire jutsu can create smoke without the use of a Wind jutsu, and a Lightning jutsu create light without the use of a Fire justu. They could still be new natures, but something has to be different about them from what the already-existing natures can do.
 * The name of the new element is basic and simple, even if it is not the best way to explain the effects. Example: Storm is bright fluid energy, Dust is molecules, and Boil is acidic gas.
 * If something like Plasma or Radiation was an element, they probably would have something more simplified.
 * The name of the new nature only has to make sense by the names, and not the effects in the World of Naruto.
 * In real life, Water+Lightning=Storm, Earth+Wind=Dust, and Water+Fire=Boil all make sense, even though water and electricity cannot make bright fluid energy, earth and wind cannot make molecules, and water and fire cannot make acid.
 * Therefore, the effect is often not the literal idea of the name. Example: bright fluid energy for Storm and acid gas for Boil.
 * The new nature possesses at least one important property of each of the two components. Example: Storm has fluidity and energy, Wood has change in composition and density, and "fluid" growth.

Just because that is a pattern, it doesn't mean that's the one. Maybe there is another pattern that would emerge if some of the theories are confirmed. Maybe there's no need to have such a pattern. I never thought I'd say this, but I think you're trying a bit too hard to see something. I looked for additions that summed up a reasonable theory and listed it. I think it's unnecessary to look for such an elaborate and intricate exact science behind them. We don't even know if there is something defining if A + B = C other than Kishimoto's "does this make any sense?" approach to it. We already have some ground rules for how they work, no need to make an entire Constitution out of it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:19, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

Well I guess so, and sorry if this was a bother. I was just thinking about Smoke, and now that I think of it, I'm not quite sure if I saw a Fire jutsu release smoke. Have you seen that anywhere? If a Fire jutsu cannot make smoke on its own, I would definitely consider Smoke as an advanced element. --GoDai (talk) 21:00, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

Just when stuff is set ablaze, or the fire kicks up smoke from hitting the ground. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:47, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm, maybe then Smoke Release will be different in a way that it only produces smoke with no requirement, and it will be able to manipulate it like wind. I think the fact that "Fire Release jutsu do not produce smoke with no fuel other than chakra" is key, and therefore no smoke is produced when it doesn't touch anything else. --GoDai (talk) 23:17, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

The only problem with Smoke Release (even though I suggested it), it lacks the idea of what abilities it would have. Right now, the only thing I could think of is a quick escape (like stereotypical ninjas), and suffocating someone with the highly toxic smoke.

Kigiri and Kihō used smoke techniques. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 15:11, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

Well, Kigiri has Fire Release. But, if Smoke turns out to be false, I'dgo with Plasma as a second choice, as I explained somewhere else on this page.

Magnetism
The word "nature (性質; Seishitsu)" in Nature Transformation is meant to indicate something like "property," as what I have mentioned above. If the Third Kazekage had a magnetic chakra, isn't that a property transformation? The Iron Sand kekkei genkai may be some kind of derived form, or another name, of this magnetic nature. --GoDai (talk) 00:03, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

What about this
What do you think about after a element is build up the user change it's proprieties like the Boil Release, for example, may be in gasous form or liquid form, or something like thatThe ultimate fan of NARUTO welimer2 00:42, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

Lightning + Wind?
I don't like the Idea for Swift release... it just seems to be a Body Flicker on drugs. I was thinking something more elemental, like maybe something like a Sound Release or Sky Release. Maybe even the storm release from the movie would work, I heard somewhere that that was a confirmed Wind and Lightning combo. all we would really need to do is change the name... The New Nub, YellowPhoenix Idk how to sign my name, not really (-.-)
 * I'm not very fond of a Sky Release. What would it be really? Godai already suggested Sound Release before, and the theory does make sense, but I think that sound is too closely related to wind for it to be a combo with lightning. I once considered Light as a possible candidate, like light being laser-like and cutting, but them I found it better fitting for fire and lightning. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:08, July 16, 2010 (UTC)

Your right... But Swift release isn't really like an element control :S. you just move insanely fast. its useful, but its not really an element :S YellowPhoenix (talk) 03:58, July 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * It still appeared in the movie. I usually make theories on top of things. As a "Release", it has to be an element. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:53, July 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe it could be Dark Release, which some people theorized would be a Fire+Wind combo, and substitute fire for lightning. Couldn't that be a reasonable explanation, assuming that Fire+Wind is something Else. YellowPhoenix (talk) 22:06, July 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Like I say in the table, I see fire and wind as smoke. Lightning and wind making Dark makes no sense. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:25, July 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * K, guess I cant argue with that. We might as well wait for when the Lightning+Wind combo and Fire+Wind combo are revealed. Excuse my naivety, im new and still trying to figure things out :S YellowPhoenix (talk) 00:41, July 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not naivety, you just have different ideas. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:44, July 18, 2010 (UTC)

Dark
I'm sorry I can't get around this, but Dark just doesn't seem to be an advanced Lightning as much as it seems like Fire+Wind. I keep thinking of the words "endothermic" and "exothermic" when I try to logically think of it's effects, and I believe the chakra being absorbed is too general compared to the vibrating electrical energy in Lightning Release. The blue fire in Dark Release: Judgment screams "Fire!" and Dark Release: Inhaling Maw implies, well, Wind, and a bit of Danzō Shimura's Vacuum-based jutsu, too. You also mentioned that really nice idea of Wind putting out the Fire, and I also used that in my primary theory. I think Fire should at least be one of the elements, although I am not clearly sure how that will affect the balance of your table. I also think the word "entropy" somehow seems fitting in how the energy absorbed is converted into blue flames (symbolically, heat) --GoDai (talk) 03:06, August 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * I see the blue flames in this as more of a relation to the will o wisp than actual fire, to the gloomy feel about it. I still think that as far as Fire and Wind goes, Smoke would be a better combo. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:55, August 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmmm but didn't the blue fire remain around Naruto, Shikamaru, and Sai after they were defeated by it? I remember things (or just the ground) burning with blue flames in that scene. --GoDai (talk) 23:22, October 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Just because it did it doesn't mean it is partly fire nature. If a Wood Release technique is bested by someone else, you don't see becoming water and earth again. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:55, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

Yin² and Yang²
If you want a suggestion for what stronger versions of Yin and Yang might make, how about a and ? In Japanese, the Sun and Moon can actually be called and, respectively, instead of the basic  and.

Also, if you want to cheer up your page a bit, I wouldn't mind making some pretty icons for your theoretical elements. —ShounenSuki (talk 00:02, September 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yin and Yang comprise everything, so a truly higher version of them would be hard to find. However, the combination of them —the true combination— is called the . This concept refers to literally everything. The entire universe, all of creation is part of the Supreme Ultimate.


 * Also, I created icons for nine of your hypothetical natures. I hope you like them ^^ Any comments are appreciated.
 * Nature_Icon_Brine.svg Brine
 * Nature_Icon_Land.svg Land
 * Nature_Icon_Light.svg Light
 * Nature_Icon_Magnetism.svg Magnetism
 * Nature_Icon_Radiation.svg Radiation
 * Nature_Icon_Smoke.svg Smoke
 * Nature_Icon_Sound.svg Sound
 * Nature_Icon_Typhoon.svg Typhoon
 * Nature_Icon_Wave.svg Wave
 * —ShounenSuki (talk 23:04, September 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * I was looking through your list of hypothetical elements and I came up with a few alternatives.


 * Instead of and, I would suggest  and . This word actually refers to an even finer dust than 塵 used in the standard Dust Release. In fact, where 塵 is used to represent numbers in the 10-9 range, 埃 is used for numbers that are a step smaller, in the 10-10 range. If this actually comes around as becoming reality, the old Dust release should probably be renamed as Dirt Release, though.


 * Instead of and, I would suggest  and . Miasma is a toxic gas or vapour that was believed to cause diseases. Another alternative would be  and .  also refers to spirit, mind, essence, and atmosphere. It's the Japanese translation for the well-known Chinese term Qì.


 * As an alternative for and, I would suggest  and . This kanji is made up of the kanji for  and , indicating ultimate brightness. It can also refer to wisdom and clarity.


 * For and, I would suggest  and.


 * For and, I would suggest  and.


 * These suggestions do not mean I dislike your own option or that there's anything wrong with them. On the contrary, I admire the effort and imagination you've shown on this page. You've made some very sound theories.


 * On a related note, here are some more icons for you ^^ First for some of the natures you're already using:
 * Nature_Icon_Acid.svg Acid
 * Nature_Icon_Eruption.svg Eruption
 * Nature_Icon_Forest.svg Forest
 * Nature_Icon_Freezing.svg Freezing
 * Nature_Icon_Fume.svg Fume
 * Nature_Icon_Lustre.svg Lustre
 * Nature_Icon_Metal.svg Metal
 * Nature_Icon_Powder.svg Powder
 * Nature_Icon_Tempest.svg Tempest
 * Nature_Icon_Velocity.svg Velocity
 * Nature_Icon_Sun.svg Sun
 * Nature_Icon_Moon.svg Moon


 * And second for the natures I suggested, should you wish to use them.
 * Nature_Icon_Brightness.svg Brightness
 * Nature_Icon_Fine_Dust.svg Fine Dust
 * Nature_Icon_Frost.svg Frost
 * Nature_Icon_Gas.svg Gas
 * Nature_Icon_Hurricane.svg Hurricane
 * Nature_Icon_Miasma.svg Miasma


 * I hope you like them ^^ —ShounenSuki (talk 17:23, September 20, 2010 (UTC)

About the Supreme Ultimate thing, that seems like the ability to control Space and Time. You are really good at making those icons, how do you do that? Vik0z0z (talk) 13:06, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

A vector graphics program named Inkscape. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:46, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

Your theory
THANK YOU LORD FOR TAKING OMNIBENDER TO NARUTOPEDIA. you helped me so much I wanted to know how to pronouce in japanese the elements release but i just knew the name of the elemente EXAMPLE i knew hikari was light but i didn't knew light release was kōton thank you AND PLEASE TELL ME WHERE DO YOU FOUND THE WAY OF LEARNING AND WHERES THE SITE YOU DO THAT.

Feedback
I really lke how you've applied Yin and Yang, and hope most of this will turn out similarly. Only thing i notice right now, "速" for "Sokudo" should be Sokuton, but your element only says Soton. --GoDai (talk) 23:45, September 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Weird. Usually ShounenSuki points out when I make mistakes with the kanji and romanization. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:49, September 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmmm I am quite sure it's "Soku+Do". --GoDai (talk) 23:54, September 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * There was one time his suggestion didn't add up with what I found out. Pressure Release would be Atsuton, but he said it would most likely be Atton. I'll ask him later. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:08, September 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * To me, Atton sounds right because the "tsu" would become smaller in from of "ta", "chi", "tsu", "te", or "to", but there are many exceptions, I believe. --GoDai (talk) 00:37, September 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * GoDai is right, should be Sokuton. Also,  is generally pronounced as shiomizu,  should be Netton and  would probably be better off being written as simply . —ShounenSuki (talk 01:08, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd be nothing without you guys. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:15, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

Haha no problem. I like the idea overall; If I am correct, in your theory, Yin generally creates enhanced form manipulation, and Yang "powers up" an element? --GoDai (talk) 07:16, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * That pretty much sums it up. Madara said that Yin Release creates form, so that's beyond shape transformation, and Yang Release deals with life and vitality, so I took that as augmentation potential. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:09, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * OMG I just realized something. I shot at nothing and hit something way back. Check this way way back revision of the page, see what I put down as Water plus Water. Unrelated, but I can't believe it has been almost one year since I made this page. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:42, September 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Whoa, very interesting. Well, with the tiny amount of info we had back then, we had no choice but to believe Water Release relied on Shape Transformation, but it still kinda does. It's still very interesting to see what this has become. Maybe that could be another possibility for a more powerful Yin? --GoDai (talk) 04:05, September 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm more excited about the fact I predicted there would be a nature that deals with shape transformation. On a more powerful Yin, ShounenSuki suggested the Moon, for reasons already elaborated. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:10, September 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Mhm, but right now I rather not consider Yin as Shape Transformation, because it is simply on a complete different level. But you are right, as it indeed deals with the form of chakra. The only thing I am confused about now is why is Yang necessary to create things that are not alive? --GoDai (talk) 23:53, September 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I see Yin as creating stuff, but not necessarily making them real. It creates things as concepts. If this turns out to be the root of genjutsu for example, it all happens in the realm of imagination. Yang on the other hand, it's energy, it's power, it's substance. It makes things stronger, without necessarily being something itself. It can exist without form, or adapt to a form which already exists. Medical ninjutsu heals, Naruto's Yang aura made trees grow from Yamato's totem. Putting the two together gives substance to thought, creating things. Without Yang, concepts of Yin are confined to the realm of thoughts, and without Yin, Yang can't be put to use, because it must adapt to forms around it rather than taking new shape. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:24, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

Aha, so even non-living things require Yang to have "mass", so to speak? --GoDai (talk) 00:34, September 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's how I see it. I wonder what else Yin-Yang Release can do. Can it "vanish" things from existence? We know spacetime ninjutsu, such as Kamui, can send things to other dimensions, but could Izanagi, or maybe a yet to be introduced Izanami do the opposite? Can Yin-Yang Release be used to erase things from existence rather then destroying them? Can Yin-Yang Release create incorporeal things? Can it create power in people, such as kekkei genkai? Possibilities are endless. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:18, September 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed. I also await the technique known as "Izanami", which I also think would be able to "delete" things from existence, or at least something either opposite or complementing Izanagi. One minor question also hit me, if Yang is related to the physical/bodily energy and Yin is related to mental/spiritual energy, what's the third "Natural Energy" in Senjutsu? I don't really think natural energy would be really something similar, but who knows, right? --GoDai (talk) 01:52, September 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * No idea, I don't think there is one either. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:07, October 1, 2010 (UTC)

Oh yeah I know it's only symbolism, but doesn't Amaterasu represent the "Material World and Light"? This might create some collision with Light Release, because although not of the same effect, they seem to overlap here. Also, if it represents the Material World, shouldn't it be more Yang than Yin? I do understand that it creates controversy with the effect of the "modification" of the flames, but are we assuming Blaze Release has done something to the Amaterasu other than the modification as well? Amaterasu has a lot of connection to the Sun, which in turn is the "Great Yang" if read literally in Japanese, as I can see you used in your theory. --GoDai (talk) 03:05, October 13, 2010 (UTC)

I was checking out your theoretical Nature Releases and the Radiation one struck me as very interesting. I was feeling that Instead of Yang Release Lightning Release could be used to create some of the Ionizing properties and allow the fire release to become Radioactive and the like. I also wondered how would the radiation release manifest in ninjutsu forms? Would it be like a Greenish gaseous form or a mixture of Liquid and Gas Formation to give that sort of "Oh my god don't let that touch me or I'll go bald or possibly dead!" look. haha. But get back to me on that man this whole thing is very interesting.

OsorekazuNaigaki (talk) 21:49, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

@GoDai: I hardly thing that symbolizing light means Amaterasu would have anything to do with Light Release. Amaterasu itself is black flame. From a wavelength point of view, dark bodies are the ones that absorb most energy. Leave two shirts in the sun, one black and one white. The black one will get hot much faster than the white one, because it absorbs much more light, which when absorbed becomes heat. I see there is a potential to create some inconsistency, but I still hope there's some room for Blaze Release not to be limited to Amaterasu, being able to use regular flames as well (though I'm still in doubt what the effect would be, simple uber strength is too Yang, so it can't be just that). @OsorekazuNaigaki: Glad you liked the page. I used to have Radiation as a possible candidate for Fire and Lightning before Yang Release was revealed, so when it came out, since stronger flame was already under Blaze being Yin Fire, I put Radiation as Yang Fire. If you check some earlier revisions of the page you'll see smaller tables with Radiation as Fire + Lightning. I have no idea what Radiation Ninjutsu would look like. The only reason the icon for the nature is green is because ShounenSuki made it like that, but I don't think it would like a gas. I think it would look like a glowing, "pulsating" like energy. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:32, October 16, 2010 (UTC)

@Omnibender Ah cool,lol I figured it would be like as you described probably a pulsating energy,but somewhat Fluid-like. As Toxic Waste is sort of sludge-like. Would it be alright if I used Radiation Release for my OC I RP? I'll use the Fire and Lightning version so people don't whine at me for being OP for using yang release hahaha. Oh here's a Theory. Three Element Combinations. could they happen and what could be some awesome ones..Hmm

OsorekazuNaigaki (talk) 04:11, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm another person to discuss with =P... Many people have mentioned the 3-element combination, but I think it will be too much to reveal all of in the plot of Naruto... and also, if triple combinations ae revealed, people will begin to assume a 4-element combination... and it'll probably be a mess. And yes I do understand the "Yang not being the form aspect" problem, but I was just saying as Tsukuyomi is also related to Yin, being a genjutsu and also representing Darkenss. --GoDai (talk) 07:01, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

I hardly think I was the first person to think about Radiation Release. You don't need my permission to use it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:17, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

@Godai yes I agree with you that there would be the further problem of speculation about four element combinations. Though as the facts state to have more than 3 Elements in a normal person's lifetime is usually very difficult to achieve let alone be able to mix them. I figured 3 elements combinations because of certain things two other elements lack that another could provide to give a more solid reaction then speculatory yang and yin prescence. Though I suppose Yin and Yang release COULD do pretty much whatever you needed them to do for two part combinations only.

@Omnibender okay very cool,I really hope Kishimoto-san let's us know all the secrets to the advanced chakra natures we don't know how to make lol Like he could just write a data book about chakra natures and it's manipulation so we wouldn't be in the dark anymore haha. I'm pretty sure though that Crystal release would be Earth and Lightning though MAYBE it could be another fire and earth,because sand at intense heats becomes glass/crystalized you know? lol

OsorekazuNaigaki (talk) 17:59, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

During the Five Kage Summit Arc he introduced loads of new advanced chakra natures, so they're bound to be mentioned in the next databook. At first I considered Crystal as Lightning and Earth, but that combo is also possible for Steel. When Yin was introduced, I thought Yin and Earth being Crystal meant the two had reasonable mechanics. I wouldn't say it would be Fire and Earth, because as far as we know, it's not possible for a mix to yield two different natures, and since Fire and Earth already make Lava, that combo is off the table. I don't expect Lightning and Earth turning out to be either Crystal or Steel because those natures appeared only in the anime and in one of the movies, but then again, Storm appeared first in a movie as well, so who knows. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:42, October 17, 2010 (UTC)

Yup all we can do is sit and drool over the prospect of a new databook where all our answer will be revealed!

Mhmm the elemental recompositions are only an aspect of Naruto, and Masashi Kishimoto could choose to preserve the last one for like, the end... Yeah the most useful thing we can actually do is sit and wait I guess... despite the countless theories I've come up with and enhanced over time...

Omnibender do you have alternate theories in case Crystal, Dark, Steel, and/or Swift are proved to not exist in the manga? --GoDai (talk) 23:04, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

I can think something up. Assuming these are the only incorrect/impossible combination results, that means I still have Earth/Yin, Lightning/Yin, Earth/Lightning and Lightning/Wind. Of the top of my head: Earth/Yin being some sort of decaying nature (like stuff falling apart), Lightning/Yin being some sort of dark energy (think Teen Titan's Raven), Earth/Lightning still being something related to Metal (not necessarily Steel), Lightning/Wind being some sort of Heaven/Sky (uh... "divine" power?). This with the minimum amount of thought put into them possible. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:08, October 20, 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm you might wanna make "alternative theories" sections for those anime-/movie-only natures, just in case.

Also, about the Amaterasu being black fire, I think the colour might not be the main thing, because (yeah I do know people wear white shirts during the summer and black coats during the winter XD) Sasuke could use Fire Release: Great Dragon Fire Technique along with the heat of Amaterasu on the ground to create thunderclouds in preparation for Kirin, which suggests Amaterasu is exothermic like any other flame. I may be mistaken in my physics somewhere here, but Amaterasu absorbing light seems unlikely, as if it did so, it would be endothermic, unlike a flame. Well, once again we are brought to "Kishi is not a physics expert" LOL. --GoDai (talk) 05:52, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

Map
Heya Omni just wanted to let you know that in Chapter 515 there seems to have been a change in where all the villages are located at. Mist Village is now located near Yugakure...just wanted to know if you guys caugh tthis cuz now the map we currently have up on the geography page is out of date!

Sorry that Message before this one was me I forgot to sign it!!

OsorekazuNaigaki (talk) 23:59, November 3, 2010 (UTC)

greetings Omni,Who is the user who does all the english to Japanese translations for like the names? I need to figure out how "Laughing Demon of Hidden Mist" Would be in Romanized Form (In other words like, Sabaku No Gaara) And then the Kanji for it as I have no idea where I could do that myself haha. Hope you have an idea who it is or if you could too that'd be awesome... thanks!

OsorekazuNaigaki (talk) 19:45, November 5, 2010 (UTC)

Hearth Release
Another outcome of Fire Release and Earth Release could possibly be Hearth Release. --User:Soifon1219

Concerning Bakuton
It's possible before he took the Iawkagure Kinjutsu he was using Bakuton in a similar fashion to Gari and with the Kinjutsu was able to find a different style of use for Bakuton. It's very well possible that Bakton has the same weakness as the Earth element or has the same chakra color as Earth Element, if thats the case then Sasuke could have easliy mixed the two up. Its also possible that the clay are in fact Earth Natured in their creation and chakra composition but the explosions are triggered by Bakuton.Umishiru (talk) 03:21, December 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * I find it unlikely that an advanced nature can have a weakness just like a basic nature. It would be more complex I think. And we don't have any canon example for different natures having different colors. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 04:15, December 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Which is my point, Sasuke could have got them mixed up, and why not? Kisame was able to beat a Lava user. It makes since that Water beats Lava unless the user follows up with a Earth release jutsu from the cooled lava. Look at Wood it could have fire as a weakness. Sometimes the best answers come from not over complicating it.Umishiru (talk) 06:25, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * My current belief is that Deidara's clay can explode because he uses the kinjutsu to put in Explosive Release chakra in it, but the actual animation of the clay is done through Earth Release. Elements having advantages or disadvantages isn't the only thing that defines which technique wins, chakra levels also influence it, and with Samehada, Kisame has a big advantage. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:14, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * Now, with Shōton, I'd say that Earth and Wind is only the left possibility. It can makes sense, because air can be crystallized. (Well, anything can be crystallized.) It has to be one or the other, if it really is canon. Earth and Lightning or Wind. Vik0z0z (talk) Kami da! 01:42, January 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * I think since 525 showed Dust is that plus fire, the top contestant for earth and wind is once again sand. If it took this long for things such as the revelation of the regenerative properties of Zabuza's sword and of Deidara's supposed kekkei genkai, him revealing that sand is wind and earth as most believed in the past suddenly seems likely. I'm practically waiting for Gaara to scream "Sand Release" when he fights the Impure World Kage. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:48, January 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd laugh very hard if that happened. Vik0z0z (talk) Kami da! 02:34, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

Fire + Lightning
Another combination could be Plasma Release. Adding Lighting to Fire could heat it to the point it becomes ionized. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_(physics)Umishiru (talk) 03:23, December 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * You'll see that this is already listed as an alternative theory for Light Release in the proposed combinations table. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 04:15, December 31, 2010 (UTC)

Some Ideas.
Crystal + Yang = Mineral Allows the user access to other crystals besides the Corundum looking Crystal release.

Crystal + Yin = Diamond I noticed that Crystal Release looks like Corundum, its 9 on the hardness scale and Diamond is a step above that. Hard attacks and defenses and perhaps resistance to lightning release but is horrible when fighting fire release(Diamond burns up into granite) and worse at Lava(most diamonds are formed in lava but melt quickly if there isn't enough pressure to set off the heat). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corundum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohs_scale_of_mineral_hardness

Swift + Yin = Time Speeds up to the point that time begins to bend around the object.Umishiru (talk) 06:53, January 1, 2011 (UTC)

I specifically avoided making Yin and Yang mixes with advanced natures. I think my epileptic tree has enough branches already. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:14, January 1, 2011 (UTC)

About Movie Natures
May I question your opinion on the validity of movie natures now? I mean, you removed Steel, but Swift and Dark still remain on the table. I know this may not be so important, but shouldn't Steel be somewhere if you're leaving Dark and Swift? I personally think removing all three of them (and maybe Crystal as well) entirely might be better, since although everyone knew that they could be valid, only Storm made it and the rest seem to be ignored with the release of Explosion and Scorch. Maybe replacements such as "Darkness Release (暗遁; Anton)" can be used? --GoDai (talk) 01:00, January 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * Steel is still in the second table, the stronger counterpart one. I considered putting Steel as an alternative to Land as Yang Earth, but for some reason I can't quite put my finger on, I decided against it. In a way, I want Chūkichi and the unknown Kumo ninja to just show up and complete the possible combinations. And then we'll still have to wonder about what Blaze really is. Out of mental exhaustion about coming up with those, sometimes I wonder if the Yin and Yang blends can really be separated into Yin+Element and Yang+Element. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:15, January 5, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I can't decide either. I mean, the Yin and Yang combinations you arranged make a lot of sense, but if one thinks it over, Yin and Yang, as natures of chakra, are rather inherent to chakra itself (as mental and physical aspects), making it likely that Yin Release and Yang Release are "Nature Transformations" that simply magnify already-exisiting natures of chakra, instead of adding a nature like temperature or vibration. Combining one of the Five Basic Natures with the Yin and Yang natures has a different feeling compared to the usual Ice or Lava, but no theory for Blaze really makes sense as much as "Blaze=Fire+Yin." All we really have is something between what we saw Sasuke do and how C describes it. --GoDai (talk) 01:32, January 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * I still damn the day we first saw Blaze Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:05, January 5, 2011 (UTC)

Alternate for Wind + Lightning
What about Friction? Nature would increase or decrease the traction of an object, decreasing or increasing its speed/movement.


 * Dry friction resists relative lateral motion of two solid surfaces in contact. Dry friction is subdivided into static friction between non-moving surfaces, and kinetic friction between moving surfaces.


 * Fluid friction describes the friction between layers within a viscous fluid that are moving relative to each other.


 * Lubricated friction is a case of fluid friction where a fluid separates two solid surfaces.


 * Skin friction is a component of drag, the force resisting the motion of a solid body through a fluid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction Umishiru (talk) 00:22, January 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Internal friction is the force resisting motion between the elements making up a solid material while it undergoes deformation.

That feels too close to Swift, which in itself wasn't a very good nature the movie writers came up with. If Explosion turns out to be Fire and Lightning, I think I can twist the Light one enough to fit the Lightning/Wind combo. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:39, January 16, 2011 (UTC) Eh, your right, too similar to Swift.Umishiru (talk) 00:48, January 16, 2011 (UTC)

Kekkei Tota
1) How do you feel with the revelation of 3 element combinations? Could it get messing like with Amaterasu?

2) Since Kurotsuchi is the Third Tsuchikage granddaughter and has 3 elements, could that mean that she could have a Kekkei Tota as well?

3) If so, considering how Kishi has been adding in non canon elements(in terms of character design) into the fold, could he be setting up for a canon debut of crystal release through her? IT makes since, Fire and Earth make Lava and is cooled by the water enough for crystals to grow. In fact most diamonds are formed under the earth but most melt do to the heat, sometimes the pressure and a volcanic eruptions saved them from a lava fate. IF thats the case, then the Earth element could be also providing the pressure.

4) I am happy come to think of it, perhaps Amaterasu is in fact a Kekkei Dota granted through the MS, after all, the MS and the EMS are upgraded versions of a preexisting bloodline limit.Umishiru (talk) 07:03, January 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * I would like to point out that the Second and Third Tsuchikage are probably the only people in the world with a Kekkei Tōta ability. Jinton is probably the only, although I guess Enton could be one as well, given its mysterious nature and obscurity. Also, judging by the name, it might involve far more than a mere genetic bloodline. Tōta refers to a natural selection of genes, implying some sort of eugenics programme or even genetic manipulation. —ShounenSuki (talk 08:04, January 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * 1) Not a big fan of the revelation, since it opens up loads of possible element combinations. I think Kishimoto tried too hard on this one. And I hope Amaterasu isn't one of those, since Yin Fire makes much more sense.
 * 2) ShounenSuki already answered that one for me.
 * 3) Who's to say those designs aren't canon? For all we know, Kishimoto could have given some designs to the movie, or maybe was encouraged by his publisher to offer more integration between the different media, such as manga and movie.
 * 4) See the first answer. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:31, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

Ok... Now you'll have a "little" problem with the table! --The ultimate fan of NARUTO--  welimer2 (talk) 16:57, January 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * Understatement of the year. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:04, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

Don't say that the year has just begun... and... you said it when I stated it long time ago! "If Kishimoto-sensei decides to introduce three element advanced natures, well, I'm going to have a hard time making a table for three elements, not to mention a grid with three entries." --The ultimate fan of NARUTO--  welimer2 (talk) 17:11, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

Just never thought it would actually go this far. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:31, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

LOL, you're right! --The ultimate fan of NARUTO--  welimer2 (talk) 17:34, January 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * It's only ten new possibilities, though, and considering Shikaku's reaction, it's highly unlikely we'll ever see another kekkei tōta. Seeing all possible ones will be practically impossible. —ShounenSuki (talk 22:01, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

True about seeing them based on Shikaku's reaction, not so sure about only ten, since Yin and Yang still have to be explained, and the shaping of Blaze Release screams Yin Release influence to me, so throwing in Yin and Yang, we're looking at 35 combinations. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:37, January 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * I personally try to ignore Yin and Yang... Including those makes practically anything possible >< —ShounenSuki (talk 22:56, January 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * Hope for the best, plan for the worst. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:01, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

I agree, Kishi i pushing it. I was hoping that if he did revealed anthing new it would be Yin/Yang + Whatever element. Oh well, with a potential 35 new elements,that table of yours will be big, infact I fear for the Nature Transformation page more. On a side note, the fact that Shikaku thought that only one ninj had a Kekkei Tota when infac there was two, leans me to think that those who learn it keep such info under lock an key. wouldn't be surprised in a bit if more Kekkei Tota users appear later on. I agree on the Blaze release being Fire + Yin but in the event that the MS is a Kekkei Tota granting eye(Ameterasu), I would say Fire + Lightning + Wind.Umishiru (talk) 05:18, January 28, 2011 (UTC)

On a side note, good job on the 3 element combination table.Umishiru (talk) 05:19, January 28, 2011 (UTC)

My problem with that combination being Blaze is that Sasuke never ever demonstrated Wind Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:47, January 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * Nah, I doubt there's much secrecy involved with kekkei tōta. Shikaku probably didn't know of the Second Tsuchikage because he died decades ago, probably long before Shikaku was even born. The concept of kekkei tōta seems to be well-known and everyone knows of the Third Tsuchikage's Jinton. —ShounenSuki (talk 15:51, January 28, 2011 (UTC)

Not counting yin and yang, if you took out all the doubles (earth & fire + wind, wind & fire + earth ect.) how many new natures would there be?--Red-kun (talk) 08:33, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

Ten. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:07, January 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * Just imagine if not only the basic natures and Yin and Yang could be combined, but also all the kekkei genkai natures. You'd end up with more than three thousand possible kekkei tōta ^^ —ShounenSuki (talk 16:13, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

I don't think Kishimoto is this crazy. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:33, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

Theories
Ok, leaving out Yin and Yang, because my head would combust, I have some ideas.
 * Wind, Lightning, and Fire would most definitely produce Plasma, if not a regular advanced element.
 * Wind, Water, and Fire... Maybe, vapor, which can change state, but remain at high temperatures.
 * Wind, Lightning, and Earth could produce crystal, or explosive air. Chemically unstable.
 * Fire, Lightning, and Water... Fire, with Storm Release-like properties.
 * Fire, Lightning, and Earth another viability for crystal, or metal, yes.
 * Water, Earth, and Wind, could make Mud, maybe, or Glacier? (But, that's too ice-y)
 * Water, Wind, and Lightning could make light, as ice is refractive, or maybe an Ion release, but different from Plasma.
 * Water, Earth, and Lightning, jokingly, I'd say magnetic rocks. Other than that, Vaporization? Or Annihilation?
 * Fire, Earth, and Water could be a Cool Release, that removes heat.

Oh, and as an easier Plasma Release name, use Star Release, or ("Seiton" 星遁). Vik0z0z (talk) Kami da! 02:27, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

At the moment, I have plasma as an alternate for Fire + Lightning. Never found a name for plasma, so it ended up as what you see there. You're not considering Yin and Yang, but in this case, I think taking Wind and putting Yang would fit more nicely. In theory, vapour is a nice idea, but we know beforehand that Han uses it, and it doesn't seem to be a nature. I'll still fit Crystal under two element combinations if I can. Basic Earth Release techniques already use mud. Agree on the glacier. I'm still hoping that Explosion is earth and lightning so Light can be lightning and fire. Cool Release reminds me of the Freezing Release and Cold Release in the "stronger counterpart" section. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:46, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, what about Metal Relese being Fire + Earth + Lightning? Fire gets rid of the impurities from earth and Lighting gives the metal its properties. Also an alternate theory for Magnetism could be Earth + Lighting + Wind, Earth and Lighting make metal and the spinning action from the wind could produce a magnetic field. Also I noticed you forgot to mention Jiga in your magnetic reasoning section. He seems to employ a similar style to the Third Kazekage.Umishiru (talk) 07:15, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

Metal, or even Steel with those is a decent theory. Not sure how wind fits into magnetism. I didn't list Jiga because his ability has to do with ingested iron. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:07, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

Considering how Kishi-sensei doesn't always use literal names, I was just throwing out an idea. I was kind of thinking, that the name "bloodline expansion", could just mean that it takes an advanced element, and "expand" on it, or give it new properties by combining it with a new element. That might, in a way, debunk "super" advanced elements, if you get what I am saying. I'm just mentioning those (Light, Plasma) just in case they don't work out. With two advanced element spots left, I think it's a good idea to play on the safe side. Cool Release, I was thinking something that could remove your chakra, as cooling things remove your heat energy. As for vapor, I guess the bubbles, yeah, but you never know what a Biju can do, really. Just think of all the weird things ninja could do, and then we found out natures were behind them, i.e. Yin-Yang. I'm just throwing out ideas. Now, thinking of In and Yō, I feel like we should think of them seperately, it seems like too much to handle together. But yeah, I get what your saying. Also, to help with the ideas, you might want to look at the advanced counterparts, like I mentioned, and think of what another element might do to it. And, in the case of Yin and Yang, think of adding Yin and Yang to the advanced element. So, let's see:
 * Yin, Wind, Fire: I guess, if you are adding form to hot air/fireballs, (Blaze is too controversial to add Wind to at the moment) I guess here, you could get Plasma, or even scorching hot liquid, more likely, I think.
 * Yin, Wind, Water: Super-dense ice, or a supersolid form of ice, with viscosity.
 * Yin, Wind, Lightning: Well, what could lightning do to sound? Maybe, it could be a sound that vibrates so much that it tears people apart. Wind and Darkness, I don't really see anything. I guess, a far stretch, singularities? (I might have other combos for this idea.) I actually Plasma as an idea here, as it is highly-ionized, hot gas. Though, Yang might fit for that.
 * Yin, Wind, Earth: Maybe, a really strong-structured crystal, like diamond. I'd say disintegration, but dust does that.
 * Yin, Fire, Lightning: Blaze, with an electric/magnetic charge, or even solar flares; Yin and Light would really be darkness, so I got nothing.
 * Yin, Fire, Earth: Liquid metal?
 * Yin, Fire, Water: Sublimation.
 * Yin, Lightning, Earth: I HATE LIGHTNING. TOO COMPLICATED.
 * Yin, Lightning, Water: Look above.
 * Yin, Earth, Water: Liquid crystal? (Lots of liquid here) Or Flora, or something like that.
 * Yang, Wind, Fire: Stormy, burning, wind. Like fiery tornadoes. Or, Radioactive Wind. (I really can't think of names right now, sorry.)
 * Yang, Wind, Water: Hurricane, or Tsunami.
 * Yang, Wind, Lightning: Singularities again. Thin of Wind and Lightning as Plasma (Because fire is a release of chemical energy), Yin changes form, you get black hole. Yang adds power, supernova, kaboom, black hole. Or something like, storm clouds. Or Positive lightning, which is far more devastating.
 * Yang, Wind, Earth: Desert? As in, extreme climate sand.
 * Yang, Fire, Lightning: Nuclear explosions. Definitely my favorite choice. :D Radiation + Lightning is just a dangerous combo, since Uranium and such have valence electrons, and are radioactive.
 * Yang, Fire, Earth: I guess, your Eruption Release would work here, too. Or Volcano/Eruptive Earth.
 * Yang, Fire, Water: Supercritical fluid, which is very. very hot, and lots of pressure.
 * Yang, Lightning, Earth: Here's comes Metal, finally.
 * Yang, Lightning, Water: Well, since water has surface tension and a slightly negative charge, why not make it magnetic, too?
 * Yang, Earth, Water: Ocean, like covering land with water. Or, Photosynthesis, to make chakra with sunlight. And you'd turn green, but if it works, why not?

Think of Yin-Yang + element, and it would make the stronger counterpart, if you think about it. Also, since we really don't know if Yin and Yang can be combined with other natures, I recommend thinking if these combos could work with the regular three element combos. I feel like the regular ones are more important than the Yin-Yang ones. Just my opinion. Oh, and I added some ideas to the top. Vik0z0z (talk) Kami da! 16:35, January 29, 2011 (UTC)