Talk:Susanoo

Perfect Susanoo?
Why hasn't Madara's final stage of Susanoo been called 'Perfect' like all the translations have? Its different from the 'Final' stage after all, given it grows twice in size and is a different armor and everything. So why not call it Perfect like the translations instead of just calling it 'Final'?--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 23:49, October 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * *facepalm* Its what Madara's Susanoo's final form is called. What is the reason why you don't want what all the translations say, even the official one, calling it Perfect Susanoo? Really? Why?--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 19:36, October 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * You sure the official translation says "perfect" ? Sounds fishy, perfection is only a concept, it doesn't exist.--Elveonora (talk) 21:19, October 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * And yet an egomaniac like Madara calling his Susanoo perfect fits perfectly...either way I don't know what they actually called it.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 21:38, October 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * Final, perfect, I really don't think it matters what we call it. Madara was just trying to get the point across that it was Susanoo in its most complete form. I'd also like to see the "official" translation he's talking about, because, I don't believe Seenlantau has translated that for us. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 00:15, October 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Have Volume 62 right by me. Madara officially calls his giant Susanoo 'Perfect' form. He says its 'not there yet' until having it 'settle'.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 03:32, October 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * If you're talking about the Viz translation, we don't use that as the "official" translation. The "official" translation would be the RAWs. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 03:53, October 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Then lets get Seenlantau to translate. Since from most translations I've seen, as well as the Viz one, Madara clearly separates his Final (full armor) stage from his Perfect (stablized chakra) stage.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 04:33, October 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Truthfully, I think you're overhyping it. Madara is very egotistical and tends to think a little too highly of himself, so I honestly don't really care either way what he called it, nor do I think that finding the correct translation will result in a name change on the article, since it is represented correctly already, but if it will soothe your mind to know whether he called it "perfect" or not, then by all means, put in a request to Seenlantau and bring it up again then. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 05:19, October 6, 2013 (UTC)

It was removed because people started (or still apparently) believe that Perfect Susanoo was something entirely different. Because the meaning can be interchanged, the translation final was chose so that it doesn't look like there is a Perfect Susanoo.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 08:01, October 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * I see, it just looks like the Final stage is separate from the form Madara chose. He even blatantly says when asked: "Not quite yet..." and thinks 'settle', and his Final Susanoo form grows twice its normal size and gains a completely different type of armor and different swords. Though I think only Seenlantau can really clear this up Cerez.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 08:42, October 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * You're not understanding what Cerez said. Cerez is agreeing with you that "perfect" is the correct translation, but since the terms "final" and "perfect" are interchangeable, then "final" was chosen over "perfect" because people started believing the two were entirely different forms, which, given your reaction to this, is a pretty fair assessment. See, you're still basing your observations on size and we've already established that, where Susanoo is involved, size is screwy. All Madara did was take his final Susanoo and stabilize its chakra. Other than that, there is no distinction between the two, and as I already said, Madara is pretty much a big ball of arrogance. Of course he refers to his final Susanoo as "perfect". The dude thinks he's god's gift to shinobi. Its fine the way it is, SaiyaMan. It really isn't something we need to get translators involved in. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:45, October 6, 2013 (UTC)

Curse Mark Susanoo
Why was the image removed? Is it not showing a variation? --Questionaredude (talk) 03:31, October 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * No, it's merely Sasuke's Complete Susanoo with the Cursed Seal markings over it. It was removed for the same reason the Nine-Tailed Armored picture was removed. On that note, we really don't need one of the perfect Susanoo pictures for Madara.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 03:48, October 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Are either of those images in a specific article? Both are notable in their own way. --Questionaredude (talk) 04:54, October 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Why are they notable? Neither of them show the skill of the user; Sasuke isn't using the natural energy to enhance Susanoo, Jugo is, and Madara didn't do anything other than cover Kurama, which he was on top of, with his own Susanoo. Other than being appealing to the eye, they say nothing about the users themselves, and, as Ultimate already noted, are therefore irrelevant. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 05:22, October 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Not to start another argument, but this article is about the technique, not individuals' prowess with it, correct? That stuff is mainly for ability sections. If equipping Susanoo onto a tailed beast and the "senjutsu Susanoo" are applications of the technique, why aren't they considered notable? Naruto's senjutsu and nine-tails chakra enhancements are discussed on Rasenshuriken's page, for example.--BeyondRed (talk) 06:36, October 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * And not to sound like a smart ass, but this page has sections devoted to recording individual usage of Susanoo. Sasuke didn't use the Senjutsu chakra, did he? No, it came from an outside source — namely Jugo. Therefore, it doesn't show a user applying a different strategy to Susanoo, therefore, while it gets a mention in Sasuke's section, it doesn't need an image for it because its just Sasuke's complete Susanoo with tattoos on it. Furthermore, when Naruto enhances his Rasengan, while its Kurama's power, its Naruto who is applying that power to Rasengan. Not to mention, Kishimoto actually gave that application a special name. So yes, it gets a mention, and this doesn't. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 07:13, October 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * Except Sasuke's senjutsu susanoo looks different from his regular one, regardless of its origins. Meaning we need a picture of it somewhere. We're a wiki site, its our job to provide that kind of info. The same goes for using susanoo as an armor for the nine tails. Whether that goes here or on the character's page doesn't matter. The images just need to be there. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 13:33, October 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * No, they do not. If people want to see it that badly, that's what the manga is for. We're not in the business of creating gigantic galleries full of eye-appealing images, when they serve no purpose. Madara's usage of Susanoo to armor Kurama "looks different" too and its still not going in here, because it serves no purpose. As a wiki, our job is to record facts, which they are, not create a photo album for people to browse through. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:09, October 9, 2013 (UTC)

Sasuke Stabilised Susanoo
 Noting the straight squared nose and jaw in the last panel, is it reading to much into a single panel, that Sasuke has already learned to stabilise his Susanoo??? --Gojita (talk) 21:46, October 8, 2013 (UTC)Gojita
 * Yes. Its reading way too much into it. We'll know more in the next chapter. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:58, October 8, 2013 (UTC)

Itachi's Susanoo Color
Currently the article states that its color is different from manga to anime. However, with the recent episode, and even before then, in the Naruto/Nagato/Killer B fight, Itachi's susanoo changes color depending on the stage its in. And the color of his complete Susanoo matches the color of it drawn in the manga. And while it is speculation to say that the color changes in the manga version as well, its incorrect to say that the color is different, when the two examples of that stage match. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 01:49, October 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Color changing according to its stages is anime-only, both Madara and Sasuke's Susanoo keep their color through all forms, hell even in the anime. What the anime team decides to do doesn't affect the canon, in the manga it was seen as yellow and speculating that somehow magically studio pierrot got it right is ridiculous--Elveonora (talk) 11:27, October 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Apparently you didn't read what I said at all. I said we can't take color changing to be true in the manga, but we also can't say the color is different when the examples of the complete form has the same color. Learn how to read things before you comment. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 13:08, October 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * I did and understood you completely, I just thought you to have had a hidden motive behind the topic, that being the reason for my seemingly unrelated response. I haven't noticed a different color in the recent episode, when exactly?--Elveonora (talk) 13:34, October 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * You still don't seem to understand what he's saying. On our article, we state that the anime depicts Itachi's Susanoo as "red", while the manga depicts it as "yellow". However, the manga has only colored Itachi's "complete" Susanoo. The anime, conversely, uses the exact same color for the complete Susanoo. What he is saying is that, while we can't say that the color changing to red in its incomplete and final forms is canon to the manga (as they haven't been colored in the manga), we also can't say that it is an anime error, since the only thing the manga colored, they got right. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:45, October 11, 2013 (UTC)

I knew that... but thanks for telling me, alright. I know what the topic is about all along. I just thought he was trying to push the color change thing as canon despite him stating it not to be his intent as of the line "while it is speculation" etc. But if he hadn't written that, I wouldn't have been suspicious or paranoid even, ironically. The color doesn't match tho, in this episode, it looked like a different shade of red at best/dark orange in case he refers to the 4 armed shot of it, not that much yellow. It's just shading. Red is still prevalent no matter how you look at it, so that's not really a wrong statement. I think it may be no different than the tailed beast ball in the anime being different slightly among its appearances, it depends on the director/animators working on the episode, they keep flipping back and forth constantly. For example, I don't think this happened during the Sasuke vs Itachi fight. But if you want your heart at peace, feel free to add there being a yellowish tint and call this topic concluded--Elveonora (talk) 19:02, October 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Look closer. The susanoo used in the recent episode has Itachi's split between complete and incomplete. The complete parts are colored yellow, the incomplete ones colored red. The picture in this article requires you to look closely, but there's a clearer example in the character articles. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 19:10, October 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Edit: Look at the body fluid shedding technique picture. Clearest example. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 19:14, October 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Seeing it now. Well add it if you want, not a biggie--Elveonora (talk) 20:05, October 11, 2013 (UTC)

Equipped Susanoo
So, now that we have a couple of examples, should we maybe make a separate section showing it equipped to tailed beasts (Kurama) like we do for the different weapon variations? MangekyoSasuke (talk) 13:52, October 16, 2013 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea. However, you're gonna have to persuade the Sysops and the Rollbacks in order to do so. For instance, you could name the section you want so badly "Shape Transformation", and place it between "Weaponry" and "Influence", but having it deleted at the hands of a sysop or rollback would be frustrating. I like the idea, but you have a lot of opposition against the idea right now. WindStar7125 (talk) 20:58, October 16, 2013 (UTC)

It makes sense and there isn't a reason not to, this is relevant to this jutsu and much more trivial things have been added to pages e.g chidori has CM influences to the jutsu on the page, it hardly changed it, only 1 more use of chidori and differently coloured. --Kotoamatsukami (talk) 17:54, October 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * Its mentioned because Kishimoto, the writer of the series, deemed it important enough to give it a unique name. Kurama, or in Sasuke's case, Naruto, are outside entities and are not in anyways part of the technique, nor are they enhancing it. Literally all its managing to do is armor Kurama, so if anyone is getting an upgrade, its the Nine-Tails, not Susanoo. Its not a unique form of Susanoo, there is nothing new that can be done with it; its just a normal Susanoo being applied to a tailed beast. Exactly what part of that needs to be displayed for all to see? In both cases in which its happened, it has been mentioned, along with how it was used, on both the character page, and this page. The problem some of you seem to have is that we're not adding pictures of it, and, as you'll see if you look above, we're not going to do that for the following reasons;


 * Its not a new form of this technique, just this technique covering Kurama.
 * It doesn't enhance this technique any, Kurama is the one being enhanced.
 * This page is meant to display images of the character's various Susanoo stages. Seeing as neither Kurama-equipped Susanoo, nor Curse Mark Susanoo, are a separate state (rather variations of existing stages), we don't need to add images of them.


 * As has been said by myself and many others, this wiki, and these pages, are not a photo album for eye-grabbing, "epic" pictures that fans like to look at. That is what fan sites, and the manga itself is for. This page accurately depicts the technique in its various "pure" stages as it is meant to. End of debacle. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:13, October 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay, then what if we add to pages like tailed beast mode, or Kurama? Would that be ok, Foxxie? Justin Holland (talk) 01:25, October 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * Its already mentioned on all applicable pages. If you really think an images is needed on those pages, then you may bring it up on those talk pages. I have no qualms with that, but I also have no real opinion on that matter, so bring it up with the others and see what they think. As for this page, they're simply not needed. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:03, October 18, 2013 (UTC)

Susanoo vs Susanō
Isn't the name Susanō since oo = ō in Japanese. Or is it just how the kanji is written? DinoTaur 19:25, October 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Read the trivia section to show where this name comes from. Or read its Wikipedia article.  http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a553/anaspet06/Shakhmootssign_zps2a261e68.png  (Contact) 19:29, October 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * I see. Sorry. DinoTaur 19:55, October 20, 2013 (UTC)

Itachi's Susanoo Sword
It may be just my imagination, but the sword manifested by Itachi's incomplete Susanoo isn't pretty similar to the Sword of Totsuka (in the anime)?--JOA20 (talk) 20:11, November 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * The anime changed it to the Totsuka Sword. It was a dagger in that same scene in the manga.--BeyondRed (talk) 01:16, November 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't that be worthy of a trivia mention?--JOA20 (talk) 09:42, November 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * The anime image also needs to be removed.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 16:23, November 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * ...or moved to the Trivia, as most anime-only images are in Susanoo's case. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:29, November 9, 2013 (UTC)

Picking back up on this, since I don't know why we have an upside down image of the Totsuka Sword still being used as the image. Could an Admin please restoreFile:Itachi sword.jpg so we can have the correct info in the article.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 02:57, January 2, 2014 (UTC)

Susanoo to counter Mokuton's chakra suppressing powers? Since when?
The question the topic asks. Where was this ever stated, shown or even remotely implied in the manga or databooks? The article says: "Madara has also displayed the ability to equip Susanoo onto Kurama... keeping it safe from Hashirama Senju's Wood Release suppression techniques." Which part of the manga supports this? I reworded this to cut out the speculative bits. NoJutsu (talk) 17:33, December 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok, no answer. Ten Tailed Fox, I will really appreciate it if you do not antagonize every edit I make in the future. I've had to write such posts thrice, and in every case your antagonism was found to have no tangible basis. I hate to post these paragraphs that make me look like an obnoxious person that thinks he has a boundless comprehension of the series. I really appreciate constructive criticism but not vague attacks. NoJutsu (talk) 04:36, December 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * You got no answer, because I didn't see this. If you don't get an answer from me in a timely manner, your best shot is to message me on my talk page, where at least I get a notification. If you'd read the chapter that was referenced, you'd notice that Hashirama was unable to suppress the Kyūbi's power until after he had torn Susanoo completely off. In fact, Hashirama even makes note of the fact that he has an opening to preform the technique now that Susanoo was torn off of Kurama. Therefore, in equipping Kurama with Susanoo, Madara prevented Hashirama from using his chakra/bijū suppressing techniques on the Bijū in question. In future instances, for the constructive criticism you asked for, try reading the pages referenced at the end of the sentence where it was stated, as well as the pages around it, instead of guessing and just deleting information. 90% of such edits are going to get reverted because the person who deleted said content didn't bother to look back at the chapter and attempt to see how other editors, who have just as much a right to edit this page as you do, might have drawn that conclusion before they just up and deleted it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 07:13, December 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * If here works like WP, then you should have gotten a notification. That is the purpose for linking your name in my post. The problem is that it is ASSUMED that Hashirama couldn't suppress Kyuubi's power with Mokuton due to Susanoo based on how things played out. This is a reasonable conclusion but it is still speculative. One problem with that speculation is that Wood Dragon can handle more than bijuu chakra. The technique that Susanoo protected Kyuubi from was specifically Kakuan Nitten Suishu, because it works exclusively on bijuu. Therefore Susanoo gave protect only against SOME Mokuton techniques. Whereas, the article generalized it. Stop assuming every other person doesn't read the manga. NoJutsu (talk) 08:36, December 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * First of all, stop assuming that Wikia, especially this one, works like Wikipedia. While similar in many regards, we are not Wikipedia, nor do we operate like Wikipedia. If I had gotten a notification, I would've known. Secondly, we go by logical conclusions here. If a logical conclusion, such as in the article, can be drawn from a series of events, it is added. It is highly logical, based on the arduous tasks Hashirama had to go through in order to preform his technique, i.e. removing Susanoo, backed by his own statements, that the Susanoo armor was used as a defense against such technique. Lastly, I didn't assume you didn't read the manga, I assumed you didn't check the reference before you removed the subject matter. That is why references exist. So you can check them and validate the information in question. And you clearly didn't do so until after the fact. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:07, December 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * Sorry that my attempt to notify you did not work. Indeed it can be logically interpreted that Susanoo was preventing Mokuton from crippling the Kyuubi, but it also can be logically inferred that Mokuton (e.g. Wood Dragon) can cripple Susanoo or any other chakra defence. But these conclusions are still speculative since none of these were explicitly shown or stated. The problem of meddling with speculations is that contradictory conclusions that could all be based on logical interpretations could easily materialize. Just keep the speculations away. I do check references before changing anything. We all cannot help but make premature assumptions of "strangers", but you should learn to be wary of such assumptions. NoJutsu (talk) 03:28, December 16, 2013 (UTC)

Madara
So in the most recent chapter we see Madara use Susanoo without having his eyes. I think this should be noted somewhere. &#34;I&#39;m a very neat monster.&#34; (talk) 05:16, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

This is clear evidence that Susanoo has to be unlocked through the Mangekyo Sharingan but doesn't require it per se. Any other opinion is deemed invalid. Derigar (talk) 15:28, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Color Symbolism
Do you think we should add what Susanoo colors symbolizes the personality of a user in the trivia area? Like with Itachi's Susanoo: red symbolizing passion, love, strength. yellow symbolizing friendship, hope, joy, betrayal, idealism. Sasuke's Susanoo: purple symbolizing cruelty, arrogance, pride. Madara's Susanoo: blue symbolizing cold, calm, confidence. I think it's a good idea since clearly they made each Susanoo color related in some way to the personality of the users. --BlackGhost91 (talk) 02:49, December 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * I think that is way too much speculation. Yes, we add trivia bullets if they're obvious, and usually, that's in relation to cultural references, such as Japanese mythology. But colors don't have a set defined meaning. They mean different things to different people, even within the same culture, and to pick out one of those meanings and say that's why Kishi picked them would be going WAY out of line. For all you know, Kishi simply sat there and went, "Yeah, I think I'll go with this color". Way too uncertain. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 04:55, December 12, 2013 (UTC)

Susanoo change size?
Chapter 661 In this part madara manifested a small susanoo hand. Can we add this somewhere, that the user can change the size of susanoo? If I think about maybe we should've added that when we saw madara's final susanoo.--AsianInvasion711 (talk) 02:27, January 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * Size changing is noted, but the current phrasing implies it's exclusive to the partially-formed arm, which isn't the case. There's plenty of evidence for it changing size now, considering that Sasuke's Susanoo was able to fit on Aoda's head in one instance but then was about as tall as Yang Kurama in another. Kishimoto isn't THAT bad with size consistency.--BeyondRed (talk) 03:57, January 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Why is that even note-worthy? Susanoo is chakra, possibly it can keep getting larger and larger indefinitely the more chakra is used.--Elveonora (talk) 20:58, January 16, 2014 (UTC)

Can of worms
I hate to reopen this particular can of worms, but with another Susanoo user showing up, I rather do this sooner than later. I've mentioned it at least a few times in other, related discussions now, but I think it's time to revisit the matter of parent techniques. For a while now, I've thought that we can no longer strictly say that only Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi give rise to Susanoo. When Itachi and Sasuke were the only two users, I still thought that notion valid (I still believe that the MS colour inverted feather genjutsu Sasuke used on B counts as Tsukuyomi, but that is another discussion entirely, so I won't mention it any more in this topic), but when Madara came along, I began reconsidering, and now with Indra, I think it's inevitable. Simply put, I think we can no longer list Susanoo users as Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi users. That would mean removing Indra and Madara as users of those two techniques. I think that now, Susanoo should be listed as a technique that becomes available to the user when they unlock the power of both their eyes. As a consequence, I think that Enton: Kagutsuchi should be added as a parent, since that seems to be the main power of Sasuke's right eye. If we ever learn the specific powers of Madara's and Indra's eyes (unlikely as that is), I think those should be added as parent techniques as well. Or, if to make matters simpler, list no parent techniques to Susanoo at all, since it's not a combination of the two techniques themselves, but rather the fact that both eyes have power, that allows Susanoo to be used. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:16, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree with this. ~IndxcvNovelist (talk 16:20, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wasn't it the databook that told us about the relationship between Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi and Susanoo? If so, we have no need to discuss it. Noweeaboohoo (talk) 16:21, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * I go with Omnibender's idea, it was stated that Amaterasu & Tsuku were required to awaken Susanoo, when Itachi was the only user of it (in databook),... I won't speak much-- ''East Dragons Feast  16:24, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * The fact of the matter is the databook, like it or lump it, only covered Itachi's version of Susanoo. Its been clear to me for a long time now that one need only awaken both Mangekyō to use Susanoo. That said, I support Omni's idea. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 16:28, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

I agree with you Omni. Although this means I have to reconsider my position on Madara as the original user of Susanoo, as this recent chapter confirms Indra as a Sharingan user etc. Bloody hell did this chapter do a number on the canon. Also, can anyone figure out what the hell that Chakra shroud next to the Susanoo was? --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 16:38, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

I agree not parent justu, but still think Amaterasu & Tsukuyomi are required to awaken it ~ (Kuroiraikou (talk) 17:03, March 26, 2014 (UTC))
 * If you say that, you don't understand at all what I tried suggesting. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:17, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Alright, Itachi's statement is to obtain Susanoo you have both Amaterasu and Tsukyomi to be gained. But for Sasuke's statement, he said the you have to awake the Mangekyō in the both eyes to obtain Susanoo. Wondering what's the connecting point here? — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 17:23, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's just it. Itachi never said that. He just said Susanoo was the third technique to awaken "that day" (the day he got his Mangekyō). The databook claims that Susanoo requires Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, but that databook was only discussing Itachi's version. Everything said about Susanoo since then have noted that it is a power that awakens when some has both Mangekyō Sharingan. For example, Obito could never use Susanoo because he doesn't have both Mangekyō Sharingan. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:41, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. Holy crap, where were you 'n Ten Tailed Fox in Tsukuyomi & Blaze Release's talk pages? :P

Needless to say, I'm completely behind this.—「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 18:44, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Those are different discussions though. I am largely absent in discussions on those two other topics for two reasons: I have taken part in too many of them, being rather tired of having to say the same thing over and over; and other than the Susanoo related parts, I don't disagree with anything we currently have listed for those two topics. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:54, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

Ironically, I checked the Japanese original of the databook text and I think there's some room for interpretation. The sentence in question doesn't mention the word "jutsu". It only says
 * The power of a wild god, dwelling only in those who seized/grasped/held both... that is "Susanoo".

The only problem is that the word both can refer to either the techniques or both eyes... however, the only other statement is Sasuke's, which is pretty clear. Seelentau 愛議 19:37, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

Itachi only possessed Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, so yeah... his statement doesn't mean that EVERYONE needs Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. BUT that does not mean that Obito's statement changed any, Susanoo is STILL a rarity to awaken even when both eye techniques are awakened.. Shisui and Izuna were never shown with a Susanoo, if they had it they would of used it a lot more like against Tobirama for example. So you need to awaken both mangekyo techniques, BUT that doesn't guarantee Susanoo to you at all. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 03:17, March 27, 2014 (UTC)


 * Shisui and Izuna were never shown with more than one Mangekyō ability either. They're not at all relevant to the topic.--Soul reaper (talk) 04:40, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, I do get the reasoning but I am still unsure if we should just go ahead and do things after our own logic (which doesn't mean that it has to be wrong) when the databook gives us an explanation, even if it might be just for Itachi's case. I would like to see some input of maybe Cerez, Elveonora and/or TheUltimate before you guys edit the articles. Noweeaboohoo (talk) 23:25, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

There is no might in the equation. It was about Itachi's version. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 01:14, March 28, 2014 (UTC)

Can anyone explain please to me why "with Indra it's inevitable" ? For all we know, he might have had Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi too.--Elveonora (talk) 11:35, March 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because we don't know. What we've done until now is going around and saying "Yep, because one character had A&T, everyone else absolutely must have those, too." and that's just wrong. Seelentau 愛議 11:56, March 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Don't we do that because Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi and Susanoo are a trinity? And even if it isn't a rule in Narutoverse, then absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. Just because Madara hasn't shown Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi doesn't mean he doesn't have them. The fact is that in order to use Susanoo, powers in both eyes are required. And we know that:


 * Madara doesn't have Kamui
 * Madara doesn't have Kotoamatsukami
 * It has to be two distinct eye powers in each eye unless we are told otherwise. Shisui isn't know to have had Susanoo, so Obito most likely wouldn't get either if he took Kakashi's eye.
 * Unless Kishimoto had planned even more Mangekyou techniques, the only candidates left are Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi

Now try and disprove this logic ^_--Elveonora (talk) 12:10, March 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't need to. Sasuke clarified that one need to awaken both MS to use Susanoo. Seelentau 愛議 12:48, March 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, therefore Madara has to have Mangekyou techniques besides Susanoo that he is yet to show. And since he doesn't have Kamui or Kotoamatsukami, by exclusion, Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are left. Listing Madara as a user of those is completely safe. Only in case Kishi came up with ever more Mangekyou techs may he not have the two. for the Jesus guy, we can leave them out for the time being I suppose.

All in all, there's no evidence that Susanoo doesn't require Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi at all.--Elveonora (talk) 15:19, March 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Na. As long as there is the possibility that he can use other techniques than A&T, we should not list him. What applies to Itachi doesn't have to apply to Madara. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't need to master two techniques. Seelentau 愛議 16:36, March 28, 2014 (UTC)


 * Agreed completely with Seel. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 16:57, March 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * How unexpected ._.--Elveonora (talk) 17:10, March 28, 2014 (UTC)

How would you come to the belief Madara is incapable of performing Tsukiyomi seeing how projecting said jutsu on the moon as part of the Eye of the Moon plan was his idea in the first place? That literally makes no sense. I don't think we need this level of hand-holding, i.e. that we need to explicitly see Susanoo users perform Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi to confirm they are capable of doing so. Kishimoto was very clear in his databook regarding the prerequisites for Susanoo, so we should adhere by his words and accredit Madara and Indra with Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu.--Reliops (talk) 17:58, March 29, 2014 (UTC)


 * Madara used a weaker version on Mugen Tsukuyomi in chapter 606, using only his regular Sharingan, and Obito was going to use the Shinju's eye to cast it, not his own Mangekyo. As far as we know, it's related to Tsukuyomi in name only. All we can say with certainty is that Tsukuyomi existed in Madara's time to serve as the source of the name, but Izuna or another Uchiha may have been the one(s) to actually use it.--BeyondRed (talk) 18:20, March 29, 2014 (UTC)


 * Don't think anybody's outright denying the possibility of Madara possessing Tsukuyomi—he could have—but Mugen Tsukuyomi cannot be considered irrefutable proof of such, because it is not a Tsukuyomi being projected upon the moon, and may only share it's name in part due to Tsukuyomi's literal meaning.


 * The Databook's description of Susanoos isn't absolute; the details of it's prerequisites, and armament all applied to Itachi's sole example of the technique. And Sasuke's presumed use of Tsukuyomi has been under so much scrutiny all these years for good reason. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 21:50, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

Well, I'm going to go ahead then. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:11, April 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * On that note, can we remove Sasuke as a Tsukuyomi user, too? Because you know, he never clearly used it and so... Seelentau 愛議 08:31, April 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * Nooooooooooo. This must be April guyz, rite? Chapter 413 he obviously used Tsukuyomi, there's no if folks--Elveonora (talk) 12:28, April 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * Dat logic. ;D


 * Seelentau: About the Tsukuyomi & Mugen Tsukuyomi —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 14:24, April 1, 2014 (UTC)

Begone demon, you are not welcome on these sacred grounds. @Omni, don't allow his temptations to reach you. /Topic, seriously... a person presents a completely logical reasoning behind why Madara has to have Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, it gets dismissed. What has the world come to? Akarat help us. We can't simply assume that there are more Mangekyou techniques than the known ones. Madara doesn't have Kamui or Kotoamatsukami, therefore he must have Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, that's final from me. For Sasuke, ignorance has its way if you deny that what Sasuke used on Killer B was Tsukuyomi. For Christ's sake, he and Itachi are brothers. They have Amaterasu and Susanoo in common, so figure they must have Tsukuyomi too. Even more so after the whole Amaterasu = Blaze Release debacle. What logic there is in Sasuke having power over black flames in each of his eyes?--Elveonora (talk) 15:59, April 1, 2014 (UTC)

The purpose for which I started this discussion has been resolved, and I'd like to bring attention again to what I said regarding related discussions. Those other discussions belong in other talk pages, and as far as my participation in them is concerned, I've already shared my opinions on why I think things are listed as they are. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:58, April 1, 2014 (UTC)

Shisui?
He is added as a user, so how come there isn't a section talking about what we know about his Susanoo? It's a game-only technique, but it is designed by Kishimoto. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 21:39, April 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * In this game only. About your question, we don't know so much info about this Susanoo, so we have to wait for the next trailers or upcoming scans to see more about it. — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 21:44, April 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * So what if it's designed by Kishimoto? We had an entire movie essentially written by him, and that is still not canon. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:28, April 21, 2014 (UTC)

A full profile-like image of Shisui's Susanoo was revealed. Should this be uploaded? Diamonddeath (talk) 06:42, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

Found the full scan that was cut from saiyan island's "Shisui Revealed!" scan. It shows that Shisui's Susanoo will be in the anime. Im going to go ahead and update the page. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 21:27, May 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm sure that's for the game--Elveonora (talk) 21:29, May 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, obviously the scan itself is for the game, but the particular pick is without a doubt an excerpt from the anime short film that's coming with the game.--Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 21:42, May 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * The shorts aren't canon to the main anime.--Elveonora (talk) 22:06, May 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Since when? Tell that to Hashirama's Contract Seal or Madara's Gunbai Fanned Wind from the last anime short from the previous game. There's more where that came from too.--Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 22:25, May 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think the only thing from OVA like these we 100% rejected was that awful chūnin Konohamaru OVA. And that high school AU one too. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:28, May 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * And those scenes aren't canon. They may be considered "anime-only" but the anime itself doesn't include them inside of its filler continuity--Elveonora (talk) 12:33, May 17, 2014 (UTC)

Susanoo Wings
I was wondering whether we should credit Sasuke's version as being capable of flight due to its wings, yet we haven't seen it use them for such as on page 12-13 of chapter 676 it is shown to be jumping, yet I'm not sure if this is the case on the image of page 14? What do you ladies and gentlemen say on this matter? --Tzao (talk) 07:59, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Either bad angle, or the wings were manifested mid-jump, which then became actual flight. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:22, May 14, 2014 (UTC)

Mid flight? Come on. It was clearly jumping. At this point flight capability is an assumption, not a fact.--Reliops (talk) 20:05, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * What do you find more speculative: saying that something that is winged in the sky can fly or that it can't? Sasuke complains about how many there are, it's clear he's manoeuvring between them. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:18, May 14, 2014 (UTC)

On the colored version of chapter 676 on Mangabird, on page 14, when Sasuke initially summoned his stabilized Susanoo, the wings have hands. Shouldn't that be mentioned in Sasuke's Susanoo section? WindStar7125 (talk) 20:09, May 19, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125

Proposed Changes to the Article
A few things in this article (most of which have carried over from when we knew a lot less about Susanoo) seem somewhat out of place and/or unneccesary now: Thoughts on making some of these changes?--BeyondRed (talk) 03:00, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Why do we still refer to the third (armoured) form of Susanoo as "final", despite it now having a fourth stage beyond that? Unless I'm mistaken, "final" is an entirely fan-made term, unlike "stabilised" and "complete" (from which "incomplete" can be inferred, like Version 1). Also, why do we treat said "final" form and the "stabilised" form as variations of the same thing? We have now seen both Madara and Sasuke go right from their "complete" form to their "stabilised" form.
 * A lot of stuff in the article comes off as repetitious, mostly in regards to the Weaponry section. Could that information not be integrated into the users' individual sections? At the very least, maybe each user could have a weapons subsection or something?
 * Do we really need pictures of each user manifesting the ribcage alone? That seems like something that could be covered with one image in the Overview or Development sections, since everyone can do it. The "four-armed" pictures also seem unneccesary. Sasuke used a two-armed Susanoo against the White Zetsu clones, yet we don't have a separate picture of that.


 * If anything, I agree with the first point. Madara named what we call the final Susanoo as "perfect" Susanoo and yet, for some reason, we refuse to use it in the article; something I find to be laughable. I don't have an opinion on the second bullet. The third one, I'm okay with staying as it currently is. Nothing wrong with showing each person's ribcage stage. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 03:41, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

Additional Influences
I was digging around looking for some references as to why these Susanoo all look like tengu. Found something that may be worthwhile to add. Let's see what you guys think. The origin of this likeness seems to come from ancient Japanese mythology that states that the storm-god, Susanoo, let his anger and hatred build within him, and then expelled it from his body; forming a female deity known as Amanozako. As it turns out, it is popularly accepted that Amanozako was the first Tengu. She is described as having "a furious temper, a beastly head with a long nose, long ears, and great fangs so strong they can chew metal blades ragged, and to be capable of flying". Sound familiar? Especially with the revelation that Sasuke's version can fly? Additionally, the fact that she was the manifestation of Susanoo's "furious spirit" seems to correlate, to me at least, with how Susanoo develops further the stronger one's hatred is. All of this can be verified using the references on Amanozako's page on Wikipedia (which I linked), as well as the tengu page on the same site. Thoughts? Should we add this? I think we should. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 05:15, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Cool--Elveonora (talk) 10:50, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Is that a yes? >.> ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:17, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Fine by me. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:29, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * In English language it means no disagreement on my side, so supposedly that would imply a yes--Elveonora (talk) 17:35, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

Colored version of 676
Coloured version at mangabird

Should we add these images since these are likely official given how they are very similar to the coloured version we got earlier when Obito was turned into the Juubi Jinchuriki.

Also should we remove Sasuke's complete Susanoo image because it's got a new design now and has those holes instead of the teeth it formerly had.--Thdyingbreed (talk) 17:10, May 19, 2014 (UTC)

Idk about his Susanoo changing mouths since he could have been stabilizing his Susanoo right away, but the colored pages are indeed official. The official colors are distinct and these are it. I'm more interested in that Madara looks just like Hagoromo.--Narutofox94 (talk) 17:35, May 19, 2014 (UTC)

Do even know if this color version is official? The coloring style does look like other official color images we've seen, both from normal color pages we sometimes get in the beginning of chapters and those digitally colored chapters that are available for purchase in Japan (up to volume 59 I think), but I don't recall it being advertised or anything. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:59, May 19, 2014 (UTC)

Okay so it seems like it is official apparently it was announced that issue WSJ #25 would have color chapters for Naruto, Haikyû!! and Kuroko no Basket would be getting colour chapters which are avliable through mobile on WSJ digital to people in Japan and the two have color chapters out as well for the other series.

So as far as I can tell this is legit.--Thdyingbreed (talk) 01:30, May 20, 2014 (UTC)

Is the Susanoo clad Kurama anime picture worth adding in Madara's abilities?
Can someone add the picture of anime Susanoo-clad Kurama to Madara's abilities? If possible?--JustaNobody (talk) 06:03, June 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's not a different development stage of Susanoo, that's why the image was removed in the first place. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 12:18, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

Ay yo Omni, can't we just have a "Shape Transformation" section like we have for weaponry and the rest? For Sasuke and Madara? WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 16:50, July 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree that it should be documented in some form. I don't see why its such a bad thing to just add it to the pre-existing image galleries. Kishi made a point of making Sasuke note that he'd copied Madara when he did the same thing to Naruto's Tailed Beast Mode, so obviously it wasn't just some random event. May not be a developmental stage, but it is still something unique that only Madara and Sasuke can do. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 20:11, June 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't oppose them being shown in galleries on principle, I just recall there being discussions that lead to their removal before, I'm neutral on this. I just think that if the previous decision is being overturned, people should be a part of it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:16, June 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Agreed on that count. I will wait for more opinions while trying to come up with a possible secondary solution should adding it to the pre-existing galleries not please others. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 20:30, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

It's been a while now. Shouldn't we have a "Shape Transformation" section for Susanoo? Yes, it is not a developmental stage, and doesn't deserve to be in the characters/users' galleries, but they should still be documented in some way. We have a section for Weaponry, why not Shape Transformation? The Weaponry section isn't a developmental stage like Shape Transformation, but I agree with Foxie, it should be documented. It is the only unique ability of Susanoo that has just been left out. And since Omni is neutral on this and Foxie has already given his opinion, what do other sysops and rollbacks think? This issue should be addressed, if it hasn't been already. WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 16:50, July 7, 2014 (UTC)

terminology
This is something that is in serious need to be addressed. Was the term "perfect susanoo" ever used in manga? Same for "final susanoo" ? Because we either label the very final form as "perfect" for the sake of consistency (because some not-to-be-named persons around like to throw that term around a lot) or we delete all mentions of perfect.--Elveonora (talk) 20:48, July 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * All we know about Susanoo terminology is what Madara said. Basically, there are two different stages of Susanoo aside from the "complete" one: the "final" and the "stabilised" version. I dunno why someone keeps calling the stabilised final form "perfect". Maybe because the scans said it was "Perfect Susanoo", who knows?--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg JOA20 20:57, July 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Pretty sure Madara did indeed call his Susanoo "perfect" but it's unclear whether he was referring only to the fourth (stabilised) form or his Susanoo as a whole, since he called it that when it entered its third form. As for "final", it is a completely made-up term for the wiki, and we now know that it is in fact not the final form. The only remotely canon names of Susanoo's forms are "stabilised" and "complete" (the latter only comes from chapter 478's original title, I believe).--BeyondRed (talk) 21:24, July 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * That is false. I actually have Madara's exact quote from that scene: "I see… This is truly worthy of shinobi who bear the name Kage. Then I, Madara Uchiha, shall respond with full power! The five Kage are nothing compared to me! This is… my perfect Susanoo!" The form that appears is the unstabalized version, meaning that the "perfect" Susanoo has two forms. Unstabliized and stabilized. Edit: The Japanese word he used was kansei 完成 which can mean both "complete" and "perfect". It is also a word used to denote perfection. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 01:20, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * If this is the case, why don't we call the forms "perfect" or "complete", rather than the unofficial "final"? This would mean that the (significantly smaller) armored forms used by Itachi and Sasuke are also unstabilised perfect/complete Susanoo, would it not?--BeyondRed (talk) 01:59, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually, Ten-Tailed Fox, the next chapter goes to clarify the armoed form her shown in 588 wasn't his Perfect Susano'o. Madara had to make it change shape and then called it 'Perfect'.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 02:05, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * No it doesn't. It talks about his stabilized Susanoo being "destruction incarnate". @Red: The smaller forms don't have names. Only the large unstabilized and stabilized forms have names. And yes, we should change them. This "wiki terminology" needed to go long ago. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 02:12, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * If the normal armored form was his Perfect Susano'o, why even bother stabilizing it?--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 02:21, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Look, you can argue it all you want, that's what the manga says, so that's what it is. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 02:23, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * And the manga says, when Mei asked if that form was Perfect Susano'o? Madara explicitly said 'Not quite yet', then thought 'Settle' and then its massive form was shown.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 02:26, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's why I'm saying "perfect" Susanoo has two forms. Unstabilized and stabilized. Madara explicitly calls the unstabilized form his "perfect" Susanoo, then states the quote that you just referenced. Conclusion? They both are. The only difference is one's chakra is wild and the other's is "settle[d] down". ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 02:30, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Or the unstabilized form was just shown so Madara could show off his true Perfect Susano'o after. Some of the termininology call it 'True Susano'o' too.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 02:31, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * No they don't. The Japanese word used is kansei, as I stated above, which means "complete" or "perfect", leaning towards perfect, since it also means "perfection". "True" is a scanlation error. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 02:33, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

The Viz manga as well as the official subtitles of the depicted anime episode called it "Perfect" and when stabilized he said "Settle down!!" and unstabilized type is called "True" according to Mei's statement. — Shakhmoot  (Talk) 02:35, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Thanks Shakhmoot. True Susanoo is the name given for the unstabilized Armored version, Perfect is for the Stabilized Chakra version.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 02:41, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * No it is not. He says "This is my perfect Susanoo" (kanseihin Susanoo; literally meaning "perfected Susanoo"). That's what it says when he summons the "unstabilized" version. You both can't argue with the original Japanese. That's what it says. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 03:02, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then what was the Japanese for what Mei said? She calls it True Susano'o and Madara makes the effort to have his Susano'o stabilize to an entire different version. You're extrapolating that both are Perfect Susano'o.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 03:03, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think you know what the word "extrapolating" means. Secondly, Mei uses the word honto 本当 which means "true" or "reality", but we don't care what she says. Madara calls it kansei 完成, or, more literally, kanseihin Susanoo 完成品須佐能乎, which means "perfected Susanoo". Madara's term is more important because it is his Susanoo. Mei's term is referring to reality. Basically she's saying his Susanoo is the true form of Susanoo. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 03:08, July 13, 2014 (UTC)

Sasuke's
"complete Susanoo with a changed head" what's that? Shouldn't it rather say something like "complete susanoo eternal mengekyou sharingan version" ?--Elveonora (talk) 20:49, July 12, 2014 (UTC)

Technically, it should be "Rinnegan version," cause when Sasuke had the EMS, his Susanoo, both complete and stabilized (at least in chapter 650), it bore a grin, or at least had visible human-like teeth. After gaining Hagoromo's chakra and the Rinnegan, both stage of Susanoo gained holes in the mouth area rather than the teeth, like Indra's. WindStar7125   (Talk) (Contributions) 21:03, July 12, 2014 (UTC)

Isn't that picture just Sasuke's Susanoo in mid transition from its complete to stabilised forms?--BeyondRed (talk) 21:24, July 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Nope, and if you look at the full body version right next to it, you can see the facial changes there too. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 03:32, July 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * It has the old smile in the chapter just before that one though (647). If anything, it seems like it can just change its mouth at (Sasuke's) will, unless it's a minor inconsistency. Hopefully we'll see that form one more time before the manga ends.--BeyondRed (talk) 03:56, July 13, 2014 (UTC)