Talk:Magnet Release

Wind + Earth?
I know that 4th databook didn't list Lightning as one of Rasa's natures, but the book has many mistakes. Now we have 2 Magnet Release techniques that involve Lightning, just saying...--Elve Talk Page 22:22, June 7, 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah, and...? • Seelentau 愛 議 22:29, June 7, 2018 (UTC)
 * As much as I'd like to see a change in the composition of Magnet Release, until some actual source actually says it unambiguously, there's nothing we can do. I wish they'd do something like an updated version of the fourth databook to correct its many mistakes, much like volume releases usually amend stuff from the WSJ published chapters. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:36, June 7, 2018 (UTC)
 * They released an updated version of the 4th databook. But I still don't see what exactly is new here. I mean it's not like Lightning Release was used for Magnet Release. It was used in unison and not even for all of Shiki's techniques. Plus, Chojuro's words imply that Shiki's Magnet Release might be different. • Seelentau 愛 議 22:39, June 7, 2018 (UTC)

It isn't Wind + Earth.
There's no proof. Rasa's profile is not proof. The reason being is the same can be said for Body Flicker and Summoning. If non elemental techniques are either Yin or Yang, that means Naruto and Tsunade's profiles "prove" summoning is Yang since they are both listed as having Yang [] []. With that being said, Shisui's profile would prove that Body Flicker is Yin release since he only has Yin Release [].

Not to mention Shinki has Lightning and isn't confirmed to have the other two. Therefore the same argument for Rasa can be used for Shinki.

Final point is that Character profiles are not viable. Plenty of dead Shinobi don't have natures they clearly should. 3rd Raikage and Kisame being some of them. Therefore if you cannot guarantee that it's Wind and Earth and those are the only nature's he has, then why put it? LoneNinja (talk) 20:06, September 22, 2018 (UTC)
 * "There's no proof."
 * Starting off your case with a strong argument, I like that, I like that.
 * "Rasa's profile is not proof."
 * And another one back to back, nice.
 * "the same can be said for Body Flicker and Summoning"
 * Can it, though? Are these techniques operating under the principles of elemental kekkei genkai?
 * "If non elemental techniques are either Yin or Yang"
 * If? So you are making an assumption, not an argument?
 * "Naruto and Tsunade's profiles "prove" summoning is Yang since they are both listed as having Yang"
 * Under the aforemade assumption, this would be true. Same for Shisui's case.
 * "Not to mention Shinki has Lightning"
 * That's correct, and we saw that he used it together with Magnet Release.
 * "isn't confirmed to have the other two"
 * Ah, the old argument from ignorance. I knew this would show up.
 * "Therefore the same argument for Rasa"
 * Which argument exactly?
 * "Final point is that Character profiles are not viable."
 * And of course the fallacy that because a set of information has a mistake, the entire set of information automatically becomes invalid. Hint: It doesn't. If it would, the entire manga, all databooks and all other material would be invalid and we wouldn't be able to say anything for certain.
 * "then why put it?"
 * Because all you presented was an assumption and two logical fallacies. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:26, September 22, 2018 (UTC)
 * One of the flaws in this argument though, is that not ALL non-elemental techniques were stated to be either Yin or Yang. For all we know, some techniques can indeed be no nature transformation whatsoever, like Shadow Clones or Transformation etc. as much as it would make sense for them to be either or both, but we can't assume all techniques are, because nothing states that.--Elve Talk Page 20:31, September 22, 2018 (UTC)
 * "Can it, though? Are these techniques operating under the principles of elemental kekkei genkai?"
 * Do they need to? The original argument is Rasa's profile has Earth and Wind. That is, according to the original argument; the reason it is Earth and Wind since it's the only possible Natures that could be used to form the Nature KKG. Well, Tsunade and Naruto have Yang release. Therefore, it is the only possible nature that can be used to form Summoning. It's exactly the same argument.
 * "If? So you are making an assumption, not an argument?"
 * According to the wiki's page under Nature Transformation, it is. "Aside from the five elemental nature transformations, there are two nature transformations that are the source of all non-elemental techniques". I can also even bring in Medical Ninjutsu entirely for Elve's argument, since it was explicitly mentioned in that instance and say that all of them are Yang Release based since Tsunade only has Yang Release, according to this logic.
 * "And of course the fallacy that because a set of information has a mistake, the entire set of information automatically becomes invalid."
 * Not invalid, I said viable. As in not practical. It's also not a single mistake, it's many. I can go through it and nitpick to show you, but I'd rather not and just assume you should know for yourself how impractical the Databooks are. LoneNinja (talk) 20:50, September 22, 2018 (UTC)
 * "Do they need to?"
 * Yes. Because:
 * "Tsunade and Naruto have Yang release. Therefore, it is the only possible nature that can be used to form Summoning."
 * Do all users of Summoning Technique only have Yang Release? And:
 * "all of them are Yang Release based since Tsunade only has Yang Release"
 * Do all users of medical ninjutsu only have Yang Release? Because Rasa is the only one with natures and Magnet Release. All other users (or well, Toroi) don't have natures, so they can't be used as examples to infer from.
 * "It's also not a single mistake, it's many."
 * I know, I translated the databook. Still, the fallacy stands: You say that because there's a mistake, the rest of the information shouldn't be trusted. You assume (key word 1) that the presented information is wrong, based on other proven (key word 2) wrong information. See the difference? • Seelentau 愛 議 20:59, September 22, 2018 (UTC)
 * "Do all users of medical ninjutsu only have Yang Release? Because Rasa is the only one with natures and Magnet Release. All other users (or well, Toroi) don't have natures, so they can't be used as examples to infer from."

Well actually yes. Tsunade, Kabuto, Ino, Sakura, and Rin are the only characters shown in Canon to use Medical Ninjutsu and only they have nature profiles. They all have Yang. So...? LoneNinja (talk) 21:29, September 22, 2018 (UTC)
 * So the question about the principle still stands: Do medical ninjutsu operate under the same principles as elemental kekkei genkai? For those, there 1) must be two different natures involved and 2) the two natures involved cannot make up another advanced nature. So by pure logic, the only possible combination for Magnet Release - according to the manga's own laws - can be infered from Rasa's natures. Can the same be done for medical ninjutsu? • Seelentau 愛 議 21:51, September 22, 2018 (UTC)
 * It operates the same way to the degree of the argument of why Magnet Release is listed as Earth and Wind. It's because A) Rasa only has Wind, Water, and Earth on his profile. So with the only natures being presented, Wind and Earth is the only possible solution, according to the argument. My argument is A) All medical users have Yang Release. Therefore, Yang is the only possible solution, according to the argument. One nature or two doesn't make a difference to the argument itself. The argument stays the same except one less nature is involved. LoneNinja (talk) 22:06, September 22, 2018 (UTC)
 * Actually LoneNinja is right about the medical ninjutsu. I brought this up before a few times, but everyone chose to ignore it. Medical Ninjutsu is definitely either Yin or Yang, for all we know, there can be both a Yin medical ninjutsu and Yang medical ninjutsu, point being, it falls under either, per Yamato and Kakashi's talk with Naruto. The databook gives Tsunade Yang Release only (no Yin) and she is a known user of Mystical Palm Technique. Therefore shouldn't under the same premise as Rasa's 'has Wind and Earth, therefore must be Magnet' also Mystical Palm Technique be labeled as Yang Release?--Elve Talk Page 22:10, September 22, 2018 (UTC)
 * The problem is that Yamato's words don't explicitely state that medical ninjutsu are Yang Release. There's a possibility, as Elveonora noted, that they could be Yin Release. Or both. Plus, there's the Yin Seal, which is undoubtely connected to medical ninjutsu. But that just as a side note. • Seelentau 愛 議 22:41, September 22, 2018 (UTC)
 * You missed my point, Tsunade is obviously a medical ninja and she has just Yang in the databook. It's a double-standard not to take that as proof for medical ninjutsu being Yang, because that implies people assume that she should have Yin as well, but it must be an error that she doesn't, yet Magnet is taken as Wind and Earth from Rasa's profile, how come medical ninjutsu is not then taken as Yang feom hers? --Elve Talk Page 00:23, September 23, 2018 (UTC)
 * All Medical-nin in databook have Yang and Water release, but there is Yin Healing Wound Destruction.--Sharingan91 (talk) 08:10, September 23, 2018 (UTC)
 * So? How come in case of medical ninjutsu we don't operate under the same premise as Rasa and Magnet? Just because there's 'Yin' in name of some medical ninjutsu? According to the databook it should be Yang though as Tsunade wasn't given Yin.--Elve Talk Page 09:20, September 23, 2018 (UTC)
 * And Rin hasn't Yin release.--Sharingan91 (talk) 10:30, September 23, 2018 (UTC)

So, why exactly did a discussion about Magnet Release end up being about medical ninjutsu? If you want to add Yang Release to all medical ninjutsu, please make a post on the wiki board. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:29, September 23, 2018 (UTC)

I'm with Seelentau on this one. The information we've been given supports that Magnet Release must consist of two elements and with the exception of Mud release from the novels, none of these elements have ever been known to repeat combinations, leaving the only logical conclusion that from Rasa's profile, the combination must be the one we haven't seen somewhere else. This is all very straight forward.

Alternatively, the arguments made in opposition are a bit more dubious. Medical ninjutsu must be Yang, well which ones? Talking about Magnet Release, we know it's a bloodline with limited scope to containing two elements to work. Medical ninjutsu however includes a half dozen techniques from various users with no bloodlines. If you told me Mystic Palms was yang release, that seems very sound and every canon user probably has Yang in their list, but a blanket statement of medical techniques is far too broad to be feasible.

The secondary, summoning jutsu must be yang. Well Gengetsu Hozuki used a pretty big one, and he calls himself a Yin release user. So on that one, we have some evidence to the contrary.

While I understand that people aren't happy about this one, all the evidence we have supports the idea that magnet release is Earth and Wind.--Hawkeye2701 (talk) 12:55, September 23, 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks for putting into words what my tired self wasn't able to do yesterday. This is what I meant with the same principles: Saying all medical ninjutsu are Yang Release isn't the same inference as saying Magnet Release is Wind + Earth. This is because Magnet Release is one single technique in this inference, whereas in the medical ninjutsu inference, a lot of other techniques are involved. If we were to say that the Mystical Palm Technique alone was Yang Release based on the Magnet Release inference, then it would be the same and logically sound, I guess. Like this. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:51, September 23, 2018 (UTC)
 * Well seeing as I went though every canon medical Ninjutsu and every canon user has Yang Release, that means every canon medical Ninjutsu is Yang release, including Yin Seal: Release. So I guess by this logic, all of the Medical Ninjutsu thus far shown in Canon is Yang Release based off this logic. LoneNinja (talk) 22:22, September 23, 2018 (UTC)
 * But that's not the same logic, as I explained. • Seelentau 愛 議 22:24, September 23, 2018 (UTC)
 * "This is because Magnet Release is one single technique in this inference,"
 * It is because I went though each single technique individually. Never said in my last post that all Medical Ninjutsu is Yang, just said only the medical shown thus far is, based off this logic. I went through every single technique shown in canon, from Mystical palms, Chakra Scalpels, Yin Seal: Release, every single one individually. And looked at every users nature profile individually. Every single time, it's Yang release as the common nature among them all, with none not having it.LoneNinja (talk) 22:29, September 23, 2018 (UTC)
 * And again, why are you posting this here after having created a thread for it? • Seelentau 愛 議 22:33, September 23, 2018 (UTC)