Talk:Water Prison Technique

I think there is two types of this technique, one to catch the opponent and one that lets him drown. The one Zabuza used on Kakashi was ment to keep the prisoner safe (Zabuza said that he wanted to fight Kakashi alone and wanted to get rid of team 7 so the jonins could fight themselves), so Kakashi was still abel to breathe (thus beeing abel to talk and move). Kisame wanted to fight Might Guy alone too, but he caught team Guy insteed, and since he diden't cared about them, he was going to let them drown. Jacce 19:44, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps, but it's also possible that the jutsu merely lets the user control that aspect of the prison. Unless there is some alternate name or sign used in the creation of it, it wouldn't be right to separate them. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Oct 26, 2008 @ 12:34 (UTC)
 * I diden't mean to make two pages, just mention it. Jacce 13:09, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Neji
Was it that he disrupted the chakra, or that he used Rotation to just burst out? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:03, June 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * Once trapped the target is unable to move while within it due to the heaviness of the water. From article.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 02:05, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

He just release chakra from all his tenketsu, like he did when he couldn't move because of Kidomaru's spiderweb. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:07, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

Roatation involves letting the chakra burst out, that can be either a phsycial push "or" disruption. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:11, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

Release chakra from tenketsu disrupts/pushes away other stuff. Release chakra and spinning fast enough pushes away everything. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:29, June 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * According to Kidomaru the spinning was more to cover the blind spot/hide the fact they have one. Moreover, Neji was standing still when Naruto first punched him, he only spun to send him flying about. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:34, June 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * About the releasing chakra from tenketsu, I mean the time when Kidomaru stuck Neji to a tree, and Neji said he can release chakra from all his tenketsu. When Naruto punched him, I think that Neji released chakra from his face, but as that wasn't enough to throw Naruto away, he spun. Just releasing can push something, but to push more than that, spinning is required. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:00, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

And in this case? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 00:10, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * I would say he did only just a regular chakra disruption. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:13, June 15, 2010 (UTC)

Class: Defensive
Was it reverted back to just supplementary because of the databooks? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 23:18, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes.--Deva 27 (talk) 23:20, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * (Sigh) Minor question, do jutsu can updates in the databooks if something new happens with them (Rasenshuriken for example)? What I mean is, can we expect the next databook (when will that be again?) to note that it can also be used defensively, or will it mainly be dedicated to the new stuff. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 23:31, September 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * There has never been a jutsu update in the databooks. At least not so far, the next might be different. Still, in the meantime, it cannot be denied that the Water Prison has some sort of defensive capabilities. However, this was a very special case. It wasn't so much a defensive use as more of a supplementary use direct on oneself. Kisame didn't use the technique to defend himself, he sued it to lock himself in with the sharks he summoned afterwards.
 * It's only normal that it would be difficult to break through the prison from the outside. That's why it's a prison. In a normal fight, under normal circumstances, using it as a defensive technique would be silly at best. —ShounenSuki (talk 00:33, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

It's likely this could come up with any number of jutsu. Just keep in mind that the Class is how it's intended to be used, and creative uses are just that. Example, a shotgun is Class offensive, using it as a door jam doesn't make it supplementary. Arrancar79 (talk) 01:01, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * ...and a sword to block and a shield to club, very well. Could the defensive be noted a wee bit more clearly in the writeup though? Why would it be 'silly' to use it as a defensive technique though? 360 degree defense and normal physical damage unable to do anything. Granted the user is stuck in place as long as it is active, but similiar constraints with earth jutsu defenses. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 18:42, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * As it is currently stated, "Because of the density of the water it can be used for defensive purposes if performed on oneself" seems to cover it, agreed? Arrancar79 (talk) 18:51, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Using it as a defensive technique would be silly, because Water Prison's first and foremost function is to keep things inside, locked up, and unable to move and breathe. In other words, although you might be quite well protected, you'll also be drowning, immobile, and unable to attack. —ShounenSuki (talk 18:53, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * For an extended period yes it is a pain (and people like Kakashi and Kisame can go a while without air), but using a defense for an extended period is usually inadvised anyways. The idea is to use it briefly to protect yourself and then go mobile or on the offensive. Or put another way, how is it different from the other defenses in the manga (except for Earth Flow Rampart since that one is a tad imagination dependent)? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 20:18, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Is it really worth arguing about it being a good idea? That's a very subjective thing. Arrancar79 (talk) 20:28, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Water Prison is unsuited for long-term defence, but also for short-term defence. It takes away your ability to move and counter-attack, making it rather useless. Sure, you'll have defended against one attack, but you have to show a weak point again, simply to be able to do anything afterwards. It's a useless defence, only suitable for people who aren't planning on actually continuing the fight or escape from it. —ShounenSuki (talk 22:27, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * And all of the other defenses? They are generally walls (either dirt, mud, water [water encampent wall], etc.) that only work if you stand behind in a manner similiar to this jutsu. The exeption is Gaara and Earth Rampart (depends on how you use it). Plus, it could be holding off the enemy's last move they can produce. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:43, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Only comment here: Very simply, no matter how much you want to say it's defensive, the jutsu is a supplementary move. Nothing of the way the technique is used is designed to protect, it's used to trap. It's a trapping technique. The fact that Kisame used it on himself does not make it a defensive jutsu, he trapped himself in a cage. It's a very very very very simple concept that is extremely easy to understand. Wanting to make it more than it what is is, is quite frankly a waste of time and energy that could be used someplace else.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 03:09, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * I gather you will not be responding to this, but how would you define a defensive jutsu then? And not just from the databooks. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 04:15, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * The problem with Water Prison, as I've already explained, is that it doesn't just protect you, it makes it impossible for you to counteract. A wall doesn't prevent you from moving or counter-attacking, Water Prison does. As TheUltimate3 said, Water Prison traps you.
 * It doesn't even do a good job at defending you, as it was designed to keep things in, rather than out. Guy's punch may have been blocked, but it did pierce the Water Prison quite deeply. Raikiri would probably pierce through it with ease. Many sharp weapons might do too, especially when thrust in with enough force. Water Prison has some defensive capabilities, but they are laughingly inadequate and nowhere near deserving of getting the defensive classification. —ShounenSuki (talk 14:46, September 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * I could argue that it was pierced so deep since it was half-formed, but I do not believe that, and I see now that the reason Kisame was not his was because the prison was so big (for the sharks). Hmm...okay I am convinced. Though I have started a section about the mobility down below, but I will not bring that up since I am unsure of the answer myself. Shall we say it has "limited" defensive use, or that "it can be used in emergencies or when one's chakra is low as an enclosing shield," or something like that? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 05:07, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * A small note saying it not only keeps things locked in, but locked out as well would be more than enough. It is really nothing more than a logical extrapolation. —ShounenSuki (talk 10:34, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * May want a tad bit clearer, but sounds good. Do you want to do it? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 16:18, September 9, 2010 (UTC)

Moving
Another question about this technique. Here we have a shark moving on the ground inside of this. Should we then say that in certain situations the user "can" be mobile, or was it the shark. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 05:00, September 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * There are far too many unknowns here. We don't know who the user of that Water Prison was, nor even if it was an actual Water Prison. Perhaps this is the effect of letting a Water Prison go, as most other Water Prisons we've seen were being held by the user. —ShounenSuki (talk 10:30, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * That was what I was wondering too. On the other hand it could be argued that an aquatic animal had some sort of 'affinity' with the water that let it move, etc. or some other argument. So yes, I agree that there are too many unknowns. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 16:20, September 9, 2010 (UTC)

Hand seals?
Is Zabuza the only ninja to use hand seals to activate this jutsu and if not, should they be listed?ZPRN (talk) 16:41, October 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * If other ninja can readily use this jutsu without hand-signs it is worth mentioning, though you would want to get proof of the other instances. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 01:59, October 2, 2010 (UTC)

Kisame also used hand seals, but he only used three (Zabuza used 8) and he used his own weird seals. Maybe it's like that one dude said, there are two versions of the technique:one you can breath in and one you can't.ZPRN (talk) 07:54, October 3, 2010 (UTC) Are Zabuza and Kisame the only ones to have been seen using this technique?ZPRN (talk) 14:39, October 13, 2010 (UTC)

Depth is proportional to strength/defense
When we were discussing how useful the water prison would be for defense, the argument that swayed me was the fact that Guy had actually penetrated fairly deep in the last fight with Kisame, and that it was only because the prison was so large it managed to stop him. With this in mind, should we not say that the larger the prison is, and thus more of the water, the stronger the prison will be? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 20:35, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * What if a larger prison is actually weaker? Maybe if the prison was smaller, Guy wouldn't have been able to pierce it at all. Maybe a larger prison is actually more difficult to maintain, making it easier to break out of. —ShounenSuki (talk 20:51, October 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * As in needing more energy? That would I admit make a tad more sense. When Zabuza captured Kakashi I thought that it was small since that would that may be all that was needed, but I guess with a guy like Kakashi you want overkill. Very well. One other question though, here we have the water getting heavy before it is done, so can we say that it can be partailly activated as the hand-signs begin so foes do not readily escape? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:03, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * I would find it more logical to conclude that the water became heavy from the chakra Zabuza was flowing into it, not because the technique can be "partially activated." —ShounenSuki (talk 02:21, October 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * You are going to need to clarify that, since it sounds a little like the same thing. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 22:15, November 10, 2010 (UTC)

I too thought the water was dense&heavy due to Zabuza kneading chakra into it. It would seem that it is necessary for the water used to have chakra within it, as when Kisame used it, the water was his own chakra.ZPRN (talk) 02:27, November 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * So, he poured chakra into the water which made it denser regardless, and then he made a jutsu to give it shape? GoldenTopaz (talk) 04:23, November 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * What I meant was that it is more logical to assume that in order to do the technique, you have to flow chakra into the water as soon as you start performing hand seals, which makes it heavy. I doubt this is some kind of special mechanism implemented to prevent the target from escaping. It just looks like an ordinary side effect. —ShounenSuki (talk 10:33, November 11, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe, but in the Zabuza/Team 7 fight, the water was heavy with chakra before Zabuza did any hand seals. It's also possible that he prepared the battlefield beforehand, though.ZPRN (talk) 16:23, November 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * My understanding is that a jutsu needs the handsigns (unless they can skip over them, but an activation has to happen) before it can begin, so that means that the effect should have happened afterwards. And since Zabuza was expecting them, the fact that he would leave a trap like that is understandable. GoldenTopaz (talk) 18:59, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I couldn't follow what you were saying. What's your point?ZPRN (talk) 19:27, November 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, a jutsu needs for the initiation to be done (i.e. hand-signs) to work, right? That means that water prison should have started affecting the water "after" it was done, not before. Which means something else was going on, and I agree with you that Zabuza may have had the water already trapped, after all he was "waiting" for them to come and would probably have had time. GoldenTopaz (talk) 20:22, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

?
 * Um, was that too confusing? GoldenTopaz (talk) 04:45, December 22, 2010 (UTC)