Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-26636534-20180830184727/@comment-34194151-20190118190645

@Ninja of War and @Senpai

You have been debunked. I could care less how tired you are getting, I am more tired than you because everything I said directly comes from the manga, so don't even go there, you are the ones being stubborn. I am just gonna lop in my points all together and you can pinpoint what applies to each of you.

1) Concession accepted. You ignored the fact that old Hiruzen in life couldn't make many shadow clones as he could in his prime specifically because of low chakra reserves. As an Edo, he unforunately was still brought back in old age, he was only able to risk it with 5 clones with high level techniques because his stamina would regenerate and he has an undying body. Kakashi admitting to not being able to spam as many shadow clones  and maintain  them as Naruto puts this argument to rest. It's BECAUSE shadow clones divide your chakra down evenly that's its dangerous in the first place. If your chakra capacity is too low you are shooting yourself in the foot the more you make.The technique is amplified when you have more chakra avialable. >Stronger clones,> more clones made without risk, etc. All amplifications and benefits due to having more chakra.

2) Concession accepted yet again. LIES. Genjutsu and ninjutsu were grouped together while taijutsu was kept separate. Ignored the fact that in the manga Hozuki specifically stated that genjutsu falls UNDER YIN RELEASE. A NATURE TRANSFORMATION. Stop trolling and acknowledge the facts. Ninjutsu? Chakra given shape or form or nature transformation. Genjutsu? Chakra moulded into Yin release (nature transformation) and inserted into the enemy through hearing, sight, touch, etc, to control the chakra in their cranial nerves to manipulate 5 senses. Give it up already.

3) What you are saying makes ZERO sense. When Ohnoki fired a jinton cube at Sasuke, it was small, compared to the SAME CUBE he fired at Madara's 25 wood clones once he was juiced up on Tsunade's chakra. Same exact Jinton variant, yet boosted by having more chakra available. He a made bigger jinton cube, even though Madara was shown to easily absorb it. It was WORTH the risk because it was their best chance to win the fight. Itachi is at THIRTY PERCENT, for the millionth time. That means, LESS CHAKRA available for the genjutsu he can transmit through anyone of his ten fingers. At Thirty percent, he can't use Tsykuyomi or Amaterasu because the minimum chakra amount required could not be reached without screwing him over. With more reserves available, he CAN AFFORD to put more chakra in to his finger genjutsu, which is clearly extremely cheap in comparison to his MS techniques in terms of minimum cost. Use common sense. You are comparing issues 30 percent Itachi has to a 100 percent Itachi. Itachi has perfect chakra control, THEREFORE, let's say Ephemeral only costs 5 percent, that means, if he decides to MOULD MORE CHAKRA, let's say bump it up to ten percent, that is ten percent more chakra expended. We have seen that adding more chakra to genjutsu allows you to both control more targets ( even targets with reserves as massive as bijuu) and control targets with better effectiveness, and MAINTAIN said control over resisting targets, so I don't want to see any more lies. Obito and Kakashi debunk you in Chapter 567. I posted that information, and you still ignored it. Concession accepted. 100 percent Itachi can AFFORD to overextend his chakra a bit if he needs to to ensure his genjutsu isn't broken, if the GOAL is to win by incapacitating.

4)Huge exaggeration. Naruto's chakra control got MARGINALLY better as he practiced. Still, by the end, he could only summon a marginally more developed frog. This is a meaningless point, because the point is, his chakra boost from kyuubi chakra put in most of the weight for gamabunta, which is the whole point.

5)Concession accepted. Genjutsu and ninjutsu gets more potent the moren chakra put in. Itachi's Tsykuyomi when cast on Sasuke without time manipulation wasn't anywhere near as draining as the ones he casted with intense time manipulation. If he wants to make it a 100 years it's gonna take alot of chakra. We have seen edo Tensei get exhausted many times from using chakra taxing techniques. In fact, Edo Itachi is still slightly weaker than alive Itachi as stated multiple times. The Edo were brought back CLOSE to their origninal power Itachi can cast tsykuyomi for simple tasks like manipulating an incapacitated Kabuto and having him show him the signs for the edo Tensei with no strain. So yea, get your accusations the hell out of here. I support everything I say with evidence from the manga. No assumptions made. Critique the evidence instead of strawmanning.

6)Concession accepted. Genjutsu Kai is a ninjutsu technique that requires one to mould chakra and then manipulate said chakra to disturb their chakra flow and bring it to a stop to nullify the malicious yin release chakra. Jiraiya's exact words in Chapter 260: 'While your caught, your chakra is under your opponent's control. If you can BREAK that control, and disturb the chakra flow, you can break the genjutsu" Naruto was seen moulding chakra up and Itachi commented on it and stated that he improved. Moulding chakra and controlling it is essential. Naruto's ability to mould a massive amount of chakra offsets his chakra control issue as we have seen several times. You ignore the moulding chakra component and only focus on chakra control because it destroys your argument. Kakashi would absolutely struggle with ephemeral without his sharingan activated, and he wasn't a desired target. Itachi trapping naruto is absolutely a feat, and he had experience as Itachi clearly said he IMPROVED. Even without that, Itachi only has 30 percent chakra available, so concession accepted. His 100 percent ephemeral is much stronger, no amount of ignoring manga facts is changing that. As I said from the beginning, War Arc naruto maybe able to break out of 30 percent Itachi's genjutsu, but he sure as hell ain't breaking 100 percent Itachi's ephemeral without help from Kurama.

7)Irrelevant. The point is, Itachi was the FIRST person Ao and Shikaku thought of. The fact that they realized the feat was impossible for anyone doesn't degrade Itachi in anyway. Even Shisui couldn't do what Itachi was potrayed to do. He can still control ALOT of targets without sensor types detecting him, even if he can't do entire alliance subdivisions. That is a feat of his genjutsu skill, never attributed to his sharingan or anything like that. It's all Itachi. No other sharingan user or genjutsu user would have been able to do what Itachi did.

8) Clearly deflecting from the point. Tsunade has never shown any skill with genjutsu and neither has Shikmaru despite being Yin release users. Even if they can, not everyone can do it.

Moving on, @Ikbalsinghdhanjal

1) A decently charged 30 percent Itachi's finger genjutsu would trap Oro, so yeah, no. Itachi already one shot the dude with 3 tomoe genjutsu. You are right that Oro can close his eyes, And Kabuto stated that he was immune to ALL visual genjutsu, and Itachi was forced to use a genjutsu that relied on the sense of touch in order to get Kabuto change his fate. So finger genjutsu still uses the eye as the medium. Too bad that Itachi is going for the kill in this fight and he has alot more going on than genjutsu.

2) The moment Itachi entered that cave, Kabuto was scared shitless of Totsuka, even immediately revealing to Itachi how the edo tensei can be broken so that his life could be spared. There is a reason why he immediately told him the truth, he was scared. He said "Lady luck shines on me" because he was smart enough to IMMEDIATELY create a situation where Itachi's Totsuka was restricted ( the only thing in Itachi's arsenal that can put him down) and stacked a genjutsu immunity on top of that. He was also in his home court, a cave, which was shown and stated to optimize a lot of his newfound Sage mode abilities. Kabuto is a genius, Itachi still defeated him on the first move. 1)Easily countered white rage and protected Sasuke 2) then immediately deduced a strategy to initiate izanami. 3) His SMALL yakasa beads (not even the bijuu dama sized ones he fired at chibaku tensei) were strong enough to STUN SM Kabuto to the point that Kabuto could NOT dodge Sasuke's susano'o arrow, the same arrow he casually dodged moments before. If that was Totsuka, Kabuto was already dead. 4)Kabuto was pinned on the ceiling temporarily. He used it as a lure to draw Itachi in to stab Itachi. Itachi already read his move in advance though and prepared one of his untraceable clone feints, and easily cut off Kabuto's horn from behind. Again, if that was Totsuka, Kabuto was one shotted. Everything else that happened after that in that fight is irrelevant, because Itachi was handicapped due to preparing and charging izanami, something that won't be happening in this vs battle. As soon as it was charged, SM Kabuto got lolbunshinfeinted yet again for the win.

2)Headcanon, Totsuka blade sure is shit isn't slow. In the official Viz translation, Orochimaru was perfectly aware he was in a fight with Itachi, that much was obvious, he was staring right at him and talking. Orochimaru was cut off MID SENTENCE by the blade coursing through him. Orochimaru has superhuman reaction time compared to us real life humans. He was caught off guard mid-speech, was visibly confused and shocked in his facial expression, and said "eh?". His optic nerve couldn't process the blade's speed, only someone biased would claim otherwise. With Nagato it was the same thing. Watching a giant ass blade coming at him from a decent distance away out of a clearing smokescreen, still got blitzed without a mental reaction. No Shinra tensei, no Preta, no Shurado, no summonings, no body flicker, no substituttion jutsu, nothing. Straight up blitzed. Not hard to see why Black Zetsu called him invincible with Yata and Totsuka.

5) off topic, because Yata is restricted in this thread, but more headcanon. Yata is absolutely omnidirectional, we saw it growing in size, changing in shape, changing curvature, growing more extensions, the whole nine yards in response to attacks. In some cases we see it clearly covering the back of Susano'o and even the sides.

So in short, everything you said is completely false.

Itachi has proven himself in every fight he has been in. Successfully Clone feinted Kakashi, Kurenai, and Asuma all at the same time and established a win condition. Successfully Clone Feinted Hebi Sasuke and had a win condition( Sasuke was grappling a clone, it could have been rigged to explode) Clone feinted Nagato, KCM Naruto, and Killer Bee all at the same time. Nagato was physically holding him, and yet Itachi substituted out with a shadow clone without naruto, bee, or Nagato noticing, and went for a skydiving trip lmao. Killer Bee was outright shit diff'd. He registered a "?!!" in response to Itachi's impossible clone feinting skill. Nagato and Naruto only noticed he was in mid-air after he was already coming close to landing on them, due to their incredible sensory skills, but even so, it took Itachi DISPELLING his shadow clone in order for them to notice that they had all been duped in the first place. Later in that same fight. Itachi shunshin'd behind Killer Bee, a perfect jinchuriki, told him he was behind him, and Killer Bee's response was : "got it". LMAO. Killer Bee didn't even notice he just got speed blitzed and had to be told that Itachi was behind him. Itachi cared about bee. If he was serious, the totsuka blade would have been in the back of Bee's head, or even a kunai at that point. Later in that same fight, Itachi caught Killer Bee in genjutsu without him noticing. Killer Bee was standing in la la land grabbing a fake Itachi with a tentacle that we clearly saw that he truly released into the ground. Itachi just wasn't where Bee thought he was. Itachi turned into crows to make it quite obvious that Bee was in genjutsu and had been made to beleive that he had won. If Itachi chose not to do that in his illusion, Bee was a sitting duck. He then told Bee to never look in his eyes lmao. Base 3 tomoe Itachi caught someone at the level of Killer Bee slacking three times in the same fight with zero difficulty.... even stalemated his seven sword style with a mere kunai, and only retreated in order to do something about Edo tensei.

Itachi has clone feinted EVERY single person he has been in a fight with. His clone feints are essentially instant, undetectable, and unavoidable for these 3 opponents, especially given his near instant hand seal speed.

Bijuu dama sized yakasa beads alone are enough to box Orochimaru in and one shot him with Totsuka. An Itachi crow clone will immediately get behind Kimimaro and snipe him with amaterasu, no way around it. Itachi can make his clones get the drop on the people from above, or behind, and the smokescreens and shunshin speed that can blitz killer Bee easily stomps someone at the level of Kimimaro, he won't know what him. Susano'o was used for what, maybe 20 seconds? one crow clone ( which can be made cheaper than the standard shadow clone). The crow clone can cast a katon variant at konan, then rush her and explode into crows, it's job is done. After Kimimaro and Orochimaru are incapacitated after the first 20 seconds or so of the fight, 100 percent Itachi has plenty in the tank to finish Konan with ephemeral if he wanted, taking advantage of his karasu bunshin's stunning effect.

The fight is literally that simple, Oro- Yakasa beads+ Totsuka. 5 -10 seconds max and he is done. Kimimaro, clone feinted during smokescreens from yakasa, and sniped from behind around the same time Oro gets blitzed by Totsuka. Konan, finished by crow clone's katon+ disorienting crows, followed by Real Itachi shunshining her and catching her in ephemeral while she is distracted. If Itachi was willing to expend some chakra to put naruto to sleep with just 30 percent of his strength available, 100 percent Itachi after only mildly exerting himself with a less than 20 seconds of Susano'o usage and one somewhat cheap crow clone, can do it easily. The fight doesn't last more than 30 seconds.