Talk:Tobi

PLEASE DO NOT MAKE DUPLICATE TOPICS, STICK TO THE ONES ALREADY THERE, DUPLICATE TOPICS WILL BE REMOVED, RESPONSES TO SPECULATION WILL BE REMOVED WITH THE SPECULATION, READ TOPICS BEFORE ASKING SOMETHING THAT'S ALREADY ANSWERED, DO NOT INSERT SPECULATION INTO THE DISCUSSIONS

Split - damn it...
Well, I guess we have to move this page back to Tobi and seperate all the madara uchiha history... There is also the fact that the summoned madara knew about Nagato... S im A nt 11:17, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * This from the fact that in the recently-released chapter 559, Uchiha Madara is already dead and apparently an entirely different entity from the one running around as "Madara" with the Sharingan and Rinnegan. This really wracks up all of the editing/narrative-building we've been doing here. (sigh) Magatama90 (talk) 11:24, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well we don't know the entire story behind those two because It'd seem that each knows the other, but I think they are good enough articles to stand on their own. It seems like the right course of action in any case.---Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg
 * I agree. --Ilnarutoanime 11:40, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Consider this an Executive Order. For now, we do nothing. Cerez is right, we don't know the whole story. For all we know Masked!Madara could have split off from Dead!Madara to stay alive longer. Could have simply stolen his identity. We don't know. The last thing we need is to start gutting and splitting, and rearranging crap until we know for sure.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 11:40, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Madara has already defied expectations several times. Dying and deciding he can still run around either through some crazy reincarnation, or simple body theft doesnt seem to far off.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 11:43, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * He may also do something crazy like Orochimaru. Ilnarutoanime 11:45, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Hell he could BE Madara. This is why this is stupid. And will require the precision of a surgical knife as opposed to a Decapitating Carving Knife.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 11:47, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * I can also speculate who is in the sixth coffin. This will have LOTS of speculations! --Ilnarutoanime 11:52, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * In all liklihood the real Madara was who was in Coffin #6 and that was why Tobidara was so freaked out. 173.180.66.225 (talk) 15:18, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

I can't wait to see people ranting that Tobi is Obito again. Maybe Madara knew Muu's spliting technique too ( it's not impossible being as he fought Onoki.. it wouldn't be a stretch to say he fought Muu as well possibly, giving him access to the technique by copying it with the sharingan. ) and split himself at some point ( like when he fought the 1st Hokage ) - then one half got killed while the other continued to live and age with half of his original power. But then again.. I don't suppose Muu's splitting jutsu can split one's soul? And unless it's some sort of a translation error - the ressurected Madara is aware of Nagato's existance, which means he died after the later was born ( 35-ish years ago at most ) and not when fighting the 1st Hokage ( 80/70-ish years ago? o.o ) It's all very convoluted to me >.<

````--Thandurill (talk) 11:56, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * So, what should we do? Separate the two articles? Come to a conclusion already. akz! (talk) ANBU Symbol.svg  11:58, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with Simant. We should separate it now. I speculate that this is a fake Madara. Maybe the one who is in the sixth coffin is the resurrected Madara. This is just my speculation.--Ilnarutoanime 12:03, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

If the MaskedMadara was "split" from the RevivedMadara, then when Kabuto showed him the 6th coffin why would he call Kabuto a mad man? Surely he wouldn't of over reacted in such a way? I've got a feeling they're two different people but I'm not jumping to conclusions. I say we leave things as they are for the time being and see what the next chapter says and we can start with these changes to things, yes? SusanooUnleashed (talk) 12:02, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * That was the plan.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 12:03, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * @SusanooUnleashed, maybe the two were different people, but how about the sharingan? Didn't he also came from the same clan? (Just speculating)--Ilnarutoanime 12:06, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Then let's stick to it. Instead of name changing articles and stuff :) SusanooUnleashed (talk) 12:05, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

For now, all we have to do is impatiently wait for the next chapter, I hope there's NO delay. Ilnarutoanime 12:07, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

@Ilnarutoanime; There is a lab full of Sharingan. Sharingan can be transplanted into anyone as we've seen. But like I said, no need to jump to conclusions and this isn't a place for speculations. Let's just wait and see. It's better to be correct the incorrect xD SusanooUnleashed (talk) 12:11, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Someone check the spoilers of chapter 561, that say Tobi revived Shisui, Kikaku and Fugaku. They say Tobi's name is Tobdara. I think it's simply untrue. akz! (talk) ANBU Symbol.svg  12:16, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * How can there be spoilers for 561 and we're at 559? Don't believe all the hype that's to come- stick to the topic at hand.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg


 * yeah, I also think it's totally fake. They were just fan predictions I suppose. akz! (talk) ANBU Symbol.svg  12:24, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

I hate to say this, because I'm fully aware of the impractically involved in doing so, but I believe it would be totally inappropriate for us not to split the articles between Tobi and Madara respectively. As far as the information we have available, it confirms that Madara is indeed dead and that any argument to the contrary is purely unfounded speculation at the current time. I understand people's reluctance to perform such a move, but there is absolutely no guarantee that we will receive confirmation next chapter, or that the individual in question will be revealed to be Madara rather than simply someone else. I really don't see sitting on our hands as that viable an option, as everything points towards the information needing to be separated at one point or another. Blackstar1 (talk) 12:51, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * I say just create a new page for madara, add the background details and Confining the jinchuriki arc and Shinobi World War Arc's info that he has been resurrected. We'll add more info when other chapters are released. akz! (talk) ANBU Symbol.svg  12:57, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately if this page is intended to be split, it isn't as simple as that. Numerous links on a large amount of articles also need to be altered to reflect the change, which at the moment I believe to be the only reason why some are reluctant to perform the move. However, I don't hold impracticality alone to be a good enough reason for us to simply wait and see. Blackstar1 (talk) 13:06, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Reserved. In class for three hours. (TheUltimate3)--131.118.85.215 (talk) 13:35, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * I have a few questions. Firstly, did anybody realize that the resurrected Madara seemed to know Nagato? Secondly, how and why? Lastly, i feel that the "Real Madara" and the "Imposter Madara" are completely different people and of completely different chakra. Now if you guys had noticed, Ao mentioned that a NEW presence has arrived alongside Mu. Ao should recognise the "Imposter Madara"'s chakra signature so he sensed that this new presence has a different chakra signature. This is prove enough to show that clearly Tobi and Madara are two different people and not ome stupid Split Justu. (Sasori35)Sasori35 (talk) 13:59, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Whether we split the article or not, there are going to have to be some major, major changes in the future. It's obvious now that the whole Tobi–Madara thing is as complicated as people have feared it was. There are so many possibilities right now that it's not even funny any more. Are Madara and Tobi two completely different people? Are they split somehow? Is Tobi not as human as we thought? Are they, perhaps, still connected in a way? After all, Tobi mentioned before that he wanted Nagato to use the Rinne Tensei for him, and now Madara was actually expecting that Nagato had revived him.


 * This is, perhaps, the greatest revelation in the manga so far and we have to handle it with great care. Still, I think a split might be the best course of action. It's going to be a long and difficult project, but I'm sure we can pull through just fine. —ShounenSuki (talk 14:03, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Sho, I'm with you 100% of the way. Let's split the articles. But as you said, this is "the greatest revaluation" and "with great care." If there's any way I can help, I will help. --KiumaruHamachi (talk) 14:05, October 12, 2011 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi


 * I think we can do a split. But I was wondering, if a team could be assigned to the the initial separation (like have the sysops lock Tobi and Madara) and then others can contribute when they're completely serrated?--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 14:15, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * What should we do then? Create a new page named "Madara Uchiha", transfer the background of the previous article, add the two arcs, rename the previous article as Tobi. "OR" do vice-versa. akz! ANBU Symbol.svg (talk 14:13, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * As far as I know, this is the admins call. Whatever they decide, we should just go with no fighting or edit war. --KiumaruHamachi (talk) 14:15, October 12, 2011 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi


 * I also agree entirely. Yes, it is a huge undertaking but I fully believe that this wiki has the community to handle such a project and one that would do so with enough care, to ensure that the split is done both accurately and in its entirety. Blackstar1 (talk) 14:17, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * We would turn the redirect page "Tobi" into an article, simple as that.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 14:18, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * lol :D akz! ANBU Symbol.svg (talk 14:20, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * I support the splitting of articles as well, for reasons already stated above. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:42, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * So, should we do it now?? or wait for tommorow when more editors approve. I say tommorow. akz! ANBU Symbol.svg (talk 15:44, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

The two are almost certainly related in some way due to Nagato comments made by the both of them. Damn you Kishi. You've been keeping us wondering just who could frighten Madara and it turns out to be...Madara. xD When I saw the Uchiha crest I was like "Izuna?!" Nope. This will have to be handled with care. I don't think Kishi would just have us believe that Tobi managed to fool Itachi, Jiraiya, Minato, Nagato, and Konan into thinking he was alive. Not to mention, I doubt he'd have said all of that stuff to Konan, whom he was about to kill, if he wasn't him. Hopefully next week (so far away...) will bring answers. Skitts (talk) 15:53, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'll admit that the Nagato remark complicates matters somewhat, however, I still believe a split would be the most appropriate action. I would suggest that any information which is even remotely ambiguous to who it refers to, is instead moved to Tobi's article, where it can remain rather isolated until we get further confirmation that might prompt it to be moved elsewhere. Blackstar1 (talk) 16:12, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * This is going to end up a mess. I can feel it in mah bones. I still say we wait until next chapter, under the same assumption we use the "Presumed Deceased" label. But if it is clearly the minority then so be it.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 16:51, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with TheUltimate3. Waiting until a possible confirmation next week is best and prevents any revisions we would need if it turns out that they're both Madara...somehow. I second the 'Presumed Deceased' label. Skitts (talk)

I also agree with TheUltimate3. For all we no Tobi could be the result of Madara's jutsu or something.--Deva 27 17:13, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

so in the end we split? or we just leave it be... just some random guy that is mostly inactive on this wiki


 * Tobi is so far not 100% confirmed to be Madara. This is due to the latest chapter of naruto, chapter 559. Personally I believe we should give Tobi a page for himself, because he is not Madara.


 * In the end... we wait. Just have some patience people, this isn't something we can rush. It may seem like nothing to you, but there's a lot of "did Tobi or Madara do this" that has to happen.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 19:12, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm fine with supporting the deferral of a split for a further week, but only in the case that such a decision is made because of the difficulty in deciding where the separation of information should occur, due largely to the Nagato remark. However, I don't support any action which points towards these individuals both being Madara. Although it remains a possibility in the absence of definitive confirmation, there is no evidence to support such a claim as of yet, so it would be simply speculation on our part and thus shouldn't be included in the wiki. Blackstar1 (talk) 19:21, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

A split doesn't seem like it would be very difficult. ~SnapperTo 20:16, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * @Snapper2 Except, that we'd have to go through every article and confirm which did what. Skitts (talk) 01:03, October 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * On the contrary: I think that would be even easier than the split itself. In 95% of the cases where a "Madara" is mentioned, it is in reference to Tobi (or someone wearing a mask, who it is simpler to refer to as Tobi until there is evidence to the contrary). The 5% that should remain "Madara" are easy to guess: Hashirama, Konoha, Nine-Tails, Mangekyo, and the like, and even then the Madara coverage is largely restricted to a predictable section(s). It's just a matter of ShounenSuki running his bot and then partially reverting the bot for the handful of exceptions. ~SnapperTo 02:41, October 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * ^ =O Snaps! I tried to come up with a meaningful addition but... Snaps! ^_^--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 04:14, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

i think we should rename this guy tobi and make another madara uchiha page for the real one, since it was obvious in the last chapter that "tobi" and madara aren't the same person.Dionit (talk) 20:42, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

If I may interject, wouldn't it be easier to move this section into a forum or blog? I'm not exactly familiar with this wiki's rules, however it makes sense that a talk page be used to ask simple, small questions that don't extend further than 3-5 posts.-- SalmanH  (Talk)  15:18, October 14, 2011 (UTC)

Split now or Wait till next chapter Holyn (talk) 01:37, October 15, 2011 (UTC) I suggest we just wait until next chapter... in the meantime we could edit it to reflect the recent changes... for all we know, its some technique or something. hec it could be nagato for all we know.

Except it couldn't be Nagato. He's permanently sealed in an eternal genjutsu. Just thought I'd point that out. Skitts (talk) 09:23, October 15, 2011 (UTC)


 * Despite disagreements on whether to split or not, new information needs to be added in the same format as the current article. S im A nt 15:25, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I forgot it but can Tobi use Mangekyo or not.If he don't then he isn't Madara, but someone from Uchiha, or maybe someone who implanted Sharingan. I think, but I never had observed Tobi carfuly, he didn't had Mangekyo or Tsukuyomi, or Amaterasu, or Susano, so if he didn't used during Minato vs Tobi, and dind't used against anybody, than he is not Madara. Tobi is someone who uses teleportation jutsu, but Madara in his prime time didn't used teleportation. Also, if Tobi had colected Harshirama's DNA, from Madara vs Harshirama, than Tobi maybe didn't fought Harshirama, maybe he was and Uchiha who pretended to be on Harshirama's side, and during healing his wounds, he took blood. Maybe Tobi was a child during Madara's prime time. Everything can be possible, but in time of five weeks or maybe longest until February, we will know what  or who Tobi is exactly...YamatoTakeru (talk) 15:57, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I vote that we keep tight untill things settle down and everythings clear.

Name change
I nominate we change the title of this page back to Tobi, in light of the new chapter
 * Me too. --Ilnarutoanime 11:52, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

That makes three of us. It'll make things less confusing.--Hockey Machete (talk) 11:57, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Next 2 chapters are mostly based on Lee and Sakura. akz! (talk)   12:13, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

"Madara" not being Madara would certainly explain (and feel free to corect me if im wrong) why we have never seen Madaras MS or EMS in the curent story line, and also to some extend why he is always hiding his face. I do have my personal theory, but since this isnt the place for this (and no, i dont think he is Obito :P), ill just say i dont think the Madara who is alive really is Madara, but i still think we should keep the article like this, until we know more, simple because it would be a huge work to move it now, just to have to move it back next wednesday. --Cosmikaze (talk) 12:37, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree that this "Madara" is someone else than "Madara" in latest chapter, but I agree with Cosmikaze that even it si obvious, it will take a lot of time. Lets wait another week for more :) Definitely the living "Madara" must be as long as the dead "Madara", when knowing this all about Senju, Uchiha, Sage of the Six Paths, Juubi etc. Also, as Cosmikaze said, it explains that living "Madara" didnt showed his Mangekyou Sharingan (thought I think he has it) nor is hiding his face very well, and that he was blackmailed by Kabuto. I think that the sixth coffin was in fact real "Madara", a proof that the living is not the real one. And for theory, I think that this is in fact Izuna, but lets wait for the next chapter :)


 * PS, Kishimoto give me a good example of the posture for my own character with the one Madara has in before-last page, even the clothes. --VolteMetalic (talk) 12:59, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

A question but do you think when Madara said that Nagato was supposed to save that jutsu to revive everyone killed in Konaha he meant in order to revive his own body.
 * Answer- Not a forum.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 14:15, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe it was Izuna who fought Hashirama O_O Oh, God ... I mean Kishi--Elveonora (talk) 15:16, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Like Databook 3, Madara Uchiha and Tobi should have different character entries, and this chapter proves it. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 15:24, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Just a passerby, but it seems like all this arguing is overlooking the simpler option of simply putting a banner at the top of the Tobi and Madara page indicating that "In light of recent chapter(s), the data in this page is subject to change based upon future revelations in the cannon. Thank you for your patience!" Then you can section/retitle/remain any data as necessary as Kishi slowly bleeds out the data we're all starving for over the next year. ItachiWasAHero2 (talk) 15:24, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Madara isn't Tobi
Will there be a Tobi page and a Madara page, since Madara isn't Tobi after all. Check the chapter 'Reinforcements Arrive...' I'm confused...
 * --Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 15:24, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

There will be a lot of material to move from one page to another. That's for real. --BGMaxie (talk) 15:51, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

According to the latest chapters (559), Madara Uchiha is not actually Madara Uchiha, so, would it not be better to split this page into the Madara Poser and real Madara? The Forgotten (talk) 16:08, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

The 559th chapter suggest that the "dead Madara" was the one who gave Nagato his powers, since he first thought he was brough back to life thanks to the "outer path". That would mean he survived decades after the fight against the First Hokage. The most consfusing moment is the meeting with Kisame : the man claims to be Madara, has long hair, and even shows his face to the swordman so that he can recruit as a spy inside Akatsuki. And years later Tobi uncovers his face to him again, confirming that the one who gave him orders was indeed Tobi. If Tobi isn't Madara, where did he get all those informations about Madara's history, ideology, feelings, when did he swap with the real one? If Tobi is Madara, then that means Madara exists as 2 entities: one dead and the other one on the real world as an "empty shell". In conclusion i think you should keep the page but create 5 parts : 1 - Madara Uchiha : history until is defeat against Harashima + Resurrection 2 - The 4th Mizukage's Manipulator : who recruited Kisame 3 - The Fist Masked Man : who attacked Konoha and met with Itachi 4 - Tobi : the goofy member of Akatsuki 5 - The Last Masked Man : after Deidara's suicide until now.

Then you just have to say that 2,3 and 5 claimed to be Madara. --Ardeau (talk) 22:22, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

A Non-Tobi-Isn't-Madara Question
I know the raws won't be out for a little while, but was it made clear which Naruto that Madara was heading towards? By that, I mean did it say he was moving towards one of his clones? I'd assume that t wasn't so clear, but I don't think he could possibly know where the real one was. Skitts (talk) 16:21, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * I would asume he is moving toward the Naruto that is with Bee, especialy since it wasnt stated that he moved toward Naruto but the Jinchūrikis. --Cosmikaze (talk) 16:24, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Tobi is moving towards the Jinchūriki (the real Naruto and B, as it were), while the reincarnated Uchiha Madara is standing before Gaara's squad with Mū. 66.220.139.79 (talk) 16:31, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Tobi can still be Madara
First off, everyone is always saying "anything is possible in a manga/anime." The 3rd OFFICIAL databook stated that Tobi is Madara. I don't know about anyone else, but to me if a databook is official, that means the information in it is correct. My theory after the last two chapters: Madara split his soul so he's two different people. This will support the databook, the quote to Naruto "My goal is to become complete.", and the revived Madara. Until Tobi reveals his identity, no one can really say he's not Madara.


 * I can also speculate that it's just Madara's body. --Ilnarutoanime 17:42, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Since it was Edo Tensei'd at least part of his soul had to be with him though. And sorry I forgot to sign the post76.106.146.190 (talk) 17:46, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes... I agree with your post. Just next time don't forget to sign your posts. --Ilnarutoanime 17:53, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sometimes the databook does do some odd things and revisions, such as Wood Release initially being a Hiden technique and later a Kekkai Genkai. Skitts (talk) 17:50, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * It's like databooks sometimes mades us curious.-Ilnarutoanime 17:53, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Databooks don't reveal things ahead of where the manga is at release. Example, the first Databook reveals nothing about Kyubi's ability to sense negative emotions, or Jiraiya having Sage Mode, or the abilities of Sasuke's mangekyo. The other things you've said might prove to be true, but since we don't know right now: It's only speculation. Ferlize (talk) 17:54, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, but of course, databooks are just our guide. --Ilnarutoanime 17:58, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes but to rely on the information from a 3 year old book is folly.--Cmcwiki (talk) 02:51, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

Just to support this, Tobi and Madara obviously know each other. How do I know? Because of Madara's words, "So it FINALLY happened. Looks like that little brat Nagato was able to grow." This means that Tobi and Madara MADE this plan together!76.106.146.190 (talk) 18:22, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

This is not a forum.--Cerez365™ 18:28, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Honestly, this has a possibility to go either way. Madara was said to have died against the first hokage, he has the outfit he wore at that time on. But every person has said Tobi is Madara, the Kyuubi, Itachi, Kabuto. But Onoki was able to tell the Edo was Madara. But nothing should be changed or added until we have more information on both Madara. Id say though that they are both Madara.Skarrj (talk) 18:43, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd go with the whole "Madara died during the fight with Hashirama" as a benchmark, but the person that Itachi met looked awfully a lot more like "Madara" than "Tobi". But effectively, everything the masked person did was Tobi and everything else is Madara apparently. To me, Tobi seems like he might be exactly like Hashirama's Living Clone with a consciousness.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 19:27, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't. If Madara had died during the epic battle, he wouldn't know Nagato. I believe that Tobi killed Madara, stole his identity, and continued operating to revive the Jubi. Madara thought he was revived by Nagato's Rinne Tensei and so he was surprised to find out it is Edo Tensei. Back to business. I think we shouldn't change anything until more information is revealed.


 * But 3rd Databook intruded the Madara and Tobi as seperate characters. I will add a quotes from the article "(despite Tobi and Madara being the same person, the databook gives them separate entries): ". I think, that we should split up a article. Later, if we'll must, we add back to one article. Sorry, if my English is wrong.GothicWarrior  (Dyskusja)  20:31, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Best thing to do would be wait until the next chapter is released and see what is revealed. Than decide if articles need to be split, in my opinion.Highvalour 21:57, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * The thing is, despite the third databook giving separate articles to Tobi and Madara, both those articles state that Tobi is, in fact Madara.
 * From Madara's artice:
 * From Tobi's article:
 * I too think separate articles are best for now, but that in no way means they are actually separate characters. There is far too much evidence that suggests they aren't. —ShounenSuki (talk 21:43, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind that the databooks are written by editors, not Kishimoto, and they don't spoil stuff that won't happen for another couple hundred chapters. What were they supposed to say? "Oh, also, Tobi is only pretending to be Madara, but try and act surprised when Kabuto summons Madara in chapter 559!"
 * And frankly, for all the supposed evidence, I've always had the impression that Tobi wasn't exactly who he said he was, considering of course Kabuto's dialogue with him when originally summoning his 'trump card', and the way in which Tobi frequently refers to himself as being Madara, but in the third person ("I am the Uchiha Madara who did this and that!" and so on)... 66.220.139.79 (talk) 22:12, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * The databooks are written by Kishimoto-sensei himself and although they generally don't spoil things, they also don't state things as clearly as the above-mentioned examples if they are going to be proven false later on. Kishimoto-sensei has had no trouble leaving things open, ambiguous, and uncertain in the past.
 * And I agree that doubt has been cast on Tobi's identity, but not as clearly and often as you think. Him referring to himself as Madara in the third person is actually very common for overly arrogant bad guys. Sesshōmaru from the Inuyasha series does it as well, for example, and there is zero doubt about his identity and there never has been. —ShounenSuki (talk 22:20, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * You sure about that, ShounenSuki? I just checked the credits at the back of the Character Books, and they say the books were edited and compiled by the staff of Caramel Mama Co., LTD. (a company which writes, edits, and compiles various guide books), while Kishimoto is only credited as the creator of the original work. 66.220.139.65 (talk) 02:48, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

actually there have been hints that mask madara might not be the real one for some time. kabuto refers to madara in the third person when explaining the edo tensei to mask madara, for instance, and when kabuto, summoned the former akatsuki members, we knew it had to be someone whose abilities, identity or sheer power had leverage over mask madara. personally ive been wondering if mask madara is actually the brother for some time.
 * People have been misinterpreting Tobi's reaction to the sixth coffin for a long time now. Tobi was never afraid of it. It was never about the sixth coffin being able to overpower Tobi. Instead, Tobi was both repulsed and surprised that Kabuto was capable of summoning the sixth coffin and the power it held over Tobi was not strength, but information. —ShounenSuki (talk 22:44, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

I say we should split it into two pages, even if they are both Madara. For now, anything is quite possible, maybe Madara split himself into two when fighting Hashirama and one half died and the other didn't? We just don't know yet. Splitting the page into "Tobi" and "Madara Uchiha" would make more sense since then we would be able to follow the actions of each in the manga. --GoDai (talk) 23:01, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

I think that should wait until the next chapters come out. --C.L.- The Real Ultimate Lifeform 23:22, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Something is strange, Edo Madara just mentioned Nagato and thought Nagato revived him before he realized what is going on. Mask Madara mentioned wanting Nagato to do just that. Perhaps he is ticked off because Kabuto has control over potentially the strongest nin out there in the war under his control. Perhaps that is why he called Kabuto a mad man because that wasn't thr form of revival he had in plan for Madara's soul.Umishiru (talk) 03:42, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

i agree, we should wait and see how this plays out in the next chapter, since creating two separate pages would be seriously involved, and we dont know if they are actually two different people at the moment. and to shounensuki above, yes you are correct, thats why i was trying to say the mysterious coffin gave kabuto "leverage" over madara. sorry if that wasnt clear, yoshiyuki17


 * @66.220.139.65: I'm quite sure, yes. Kishimoto-sensei is specifically listed as the author of all the data, fan, and art books, in the same way he is listed as the author of the Naruto volume releases. Caramel Mama only compiles, edits, and designs the books. All the information and art in them still comes from Kishimoto-sensei. —ShounenSuki (talk 09:52, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

I think Tobi isn't Madara, but someone who idolized Madara. Think abouth it who can hate Senju and Konoha more than Madara and would kill all Uchiha, someone who was close to Madara and idolized him, maybe a son or someone close, who was thinking Uchiha was traitors and hated Senju and Leaf for death of Madara.Sasuke now idolizes Itachi who he hated so maybe it is the same situation.Tobi knows everything about Madara, so maybe he saw when real Madara gave Nagato Rinegan, and he used his chance.And as Tobi has Sharingan he is Uchiha, Zetsu never called Tobi Madara, and he is the closest to him. Now maybe Tobi inpersonated Madara after his death, maybe he is Madara's son or related, because related and family people hate all people who are conected to their beloved and idols, and that is common for Uciha that kind of hate. For all we know maybe Tobi isn't Uchiha because if he could easy transplant rinnegan into his eye maybe he could also transplanted sharingan...YamatoTakeru (talk) 10:14, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

Though I believe Tobi is Madara in one form or another, I suggest splitting the article just for following actions of both Madara's more easily.Faust-RSI (talk) 14:05, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

Madara is some kind of relic for people in Naruto manga. He was only capapble to fight Harshirama.Okay we can say what we think, but until next chapter doesn't come out we don't know what is actually happening because we can't confirm, like with Neji.Theory about Zetsu transformation was true but also a lucky shoot, aldo some people here said it was obvious, noting in this manga is obvious until it is conformed by author trow manga. So nobody shall do nothing until we get confirming in a form of chapter. Also if everything is clear in managa than it would not be interesting. Theory is just a theory, can be changed like we saw in recent history. So until next chapter or maybe next arc or the end of whole manga, because this will not be settled so easy.Logic will not help us eider because it is all Kishimoto's fiction and his imaginaton, also nothing he said in interview or Kishimoto's history won't help eider, only time will show. Beside, nobody died, it's just some lame trick or something that Kishimoto like to do...YamatoTakeru (talk) 16:10, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

I think it is safe to say that this manga didn't reveal much either. So can we please stray from any more speculation. We don't wan't random readers to accidentally go on this "informative" site and start making random guesses and assumptions because contributors couldn't wait for a "real answer". Like many before me have stated, this is not a forum. And as for the articles, they should still remain the same until we have confirmation. Or at least until a manga comes out that completely lies to the readers. Dj q-pid (talk) 14:18, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

Infobox image
Considering the issue raised in the last issue (ha ha! pun!) wouldn't it be reasonable to replace the infobox image with one that is indisputably Madara? I would suggest moving the attached image up into that spot. Not only would it be the safely accurate thing to do until this mystery is cleared up, it will remain so for the life of this wiki. I'd do it myself but I don't want to spark an edit war. -- Boradis (talk) 23:43, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * As you can see by the above topics, we're seeing how and when we'll split the page. That image in particular comes from a cover page, so it's not really an infobox type of image. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:52, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * It doesn't necessarily need to be that image, it was just the first one I found. Nevertheless, as the identity of the man in the orange mask has been deliberately thrown into doubt by Kishimoto himself, the current image is inappropriate for the article's lead spot. At the very least a better caption for it would be "A ninja who claims to be Madara." --Boradis (talk) 23:58, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

I've already uploaded an image for the infobox of Madara Uchiha, if the articles are split. akz! (talk  03:33, October 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * It needs to be an image from the time he wore the red armor, as he wore it after that and it was his latest known true appearance besides the manga. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 21:11, October 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * I think that manga image of him should suffice. The only good anime image of him looking like the Madara we know is in black and white.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 22:46, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

What ever happened to the picture of Madara when he was young like the one Izuna Uchiha has?TailedBeast (talk) 03:02, October 14, 2011 (UTC)

During Tobi's speech to sasuke about the truth of the Uchiha and Madara's past, he is shown a few times in his red armor, are there any good pics from those episodes? ItachiWasAHero (talk) 05:14, October 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * Nope. He's only in armour one time during the time he clashed with Hashirama and he's all bloodied and stuff.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 13:01, October 15, 2011 (UTC)

Nagato Should've Resurrected Madara
Page 2 of Reinforcements Arrive…!! Madara states that Nagato should have had something to do with his resurrection. Should we place that in somehow.


 * No. It is already well known that Nagato can revive people. Also, we're still in the process of deciding whether or not the article is going to be split between Tobi and Madara. Actually, it could probably be given a small aside. Skitts (talk) 05:24, October 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't that have been mentioned already since Tobi said the same thing though?--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 12:46, October 14, 2011 (UTC)


 * There are six active sysops on this wiki and none of them can find the energy to add one sentence about Rinne Tensei? Or even just to mollify all of the teenage angst full-protection creates? ~SnapperTo 19:16, October 15, 2011 (UTC)
 * Lol. You guys are more of the "watch them squirm" types. In any case I've found that recently we just wait until the next chapter before acting...--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 19:19, October 15, 2011 (UTC)

Madara Six Paths
Do Madara six Paths have his powers or the tailed beast powers?70.180.106.99 (talk) 21:12, October 14, 2011 (UTC) Lil rob
 * Given that they're revived- we have no idea.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 21:13, October 14, 2011 (UTC)

Highly implied as the reason they were resurrected in the first place(but i guess technically they could all just be talented by coincidence). Gaara has shown that tailed beast skills don't go with the lose of the beast,and the Gold and Silver brothers have showed that it applies to resurrected shinobi.I'ed say its a safe bet to say they have their the powers. 68.88.4.134 (talk) 22:08, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

Temporary quell?
I'm not too sure how necessary this is now that there seems to be a temporary quell in the whole Madara/Tobi uprising, but we have three days to go before the next chapter is out. So could a Sysop just either add the tag or just make a note that "we're aware of the recent revelations but we're waiting for the next chapter so we can put two and two together, bear with us" etc...--Cerez365™ 20:30, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

You guys will keep this article undefined for the next five chapters... Or you think that Kishimoto will reveal Tobi's real identity in 2 chapters?
 * We want to split the article, we haven't done so out of fear some plot twist reveals both are Madara and having to merge everything again. We want a bit more info before making any changes. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:51, October 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * I doubt we'd wait for five chapters to take action. But we're not going to be acting off three pages.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 01:19, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

The Rinne Tensei part has a point. Even if we're not sure about anything, the plot events from the chapter, we should mention. Right now the final text in the plot section is extremely vague and doesn't really cover the "Then who is the man behind the mask" thing that the protagonists are asking. --GoDai (talk) 05:04, October 18, 2011 (UTC)

Another chapter, nothing revealed... Just more and more questions... More four chapters and my theory will be right.

Madara's/Tobi's weapon and possible tie-in to Tobi/Madara debate
Just Pointing this out... Tobi is currently brandishing a fan like weapon that Madara seems to also wield in flashback images. Interesting since Tobi is supposed to be Madara according to data books. The person that looks like Madara (the Madara we've seen in flashbacks) on top of the cliff next to Mu never confirms that he is Madara, he speaks of Nagato as though he knew him, and Mu never outright calls him by his name he just says the person behind the impure world resurrection has a strong understanding of the war. The only person that says he is Madara is the 3rd tsuchikage. At first I thought the bio should be split but now I think that it should wait for confirmation and perhaps just a disclaimer explaining that that Madara and Tobi may or may not be the same person. It's too early to jump to conclusions and all the excitement is causing fans to jump the gun. --tetra sol 06:40, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

You obviously didn't understand Mu if you didn't get the obvious implication that he is Madara. We know for a fact that the resurrected one is him, as confirmed by Mu, Onoki, and Kabuto. Skitts (talk) 15:40, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

There's nothing further to understand as far as Mu goes. The only thing that was revealed in the last chapter was that there are two who claim to be Madara. Personally I don't think Tobi is Madara and that the real Madara is next to Mu but as this well proves we shouldn't be so eager to jump to conclusions when in fact we know very little. Madara's appearance only raises more questions. I don't see a point to splitting it right now with so little development as far as the real Madara goes. --tetra sol 19:24, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

Time for a Resolution
It's time we decided on a course of action here. We can wait all we want, but it isn't going to make the situation any less unclear or difficult.

Despite the fact that I personally believe both Zombie-Madara and Tobi are Madara Uchiha — the fact that Zombie-Madara was revealed so soon after Mū's splitting technique is a bit too coincidental to me — I do think it would be best to split the current article into two. Even if the two end up being the same person, having two articles wouldn't be a problem, as they have different roles in the series and joining articles is generally easier than splitting them. If they end up being two completely different people, we're going to have to split the article any way. —ShounenSuki (talk 16:56, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I support splitting the article.--Deva 27 17:00, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I am also with splitting of articles. akz! (talk  17:02, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I also support the splitting of the Articles as the Zombie Madara and Tobi do take up two totally different purposes as well as zombie Madara eluding that Tobi is behind his revival as seen on Page three of the manga chapter. --Fenix-fukutaichō (Request an Audience) 17:04, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I too am in agreement. Skitts (talk) 17:05, October 19, 2011 (UTC)


 * Give me one moment...--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 17:08, October 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * Ok my take. Create a Madara Uchiha (disambiguation) page which will list


 * Tobi who took Madara Uchiha's name after his death.
 * Madara Uchiha the deceased founder of the Uchiha clan
 * Madara Uchiha (chapter) because now he is a chapter
 * Happy Fun-Time Drinking Party because Kishimoto and Tite Kudo makes mew want to drink heavily until my liver shuts down.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 17:11, October 19, 2011 (UTC)


 * Considering that, for all intents and purposes, the abilities and intentions of the resurrected Madara Uchiha and "Tobi"-posing-as-Madara are radically different, it would be more viable for cataloguing purposes to split this article. Chapter 560 shows how Zombie-Madara awakened the Rinnegan on his own, which is outside the capacity of the one posing as Tobi. It's not beyond the realm of possibility, to be honest. Although, considering that convoluted plot twists would actually show that they are actually, STILL, both Madara (just SPLIT), we might want to archive the current coding of the article for the mean time. That being settled, I endorse the Tobi-Madara split. Magatama90 (talk) 17:12, October 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * Clearly they should be split -- even if they turn out to be connected somehow, there are two characters running around claiming the name of Madara right now with different powers and motivations, and no matter what is revealed later they're each going to need their own article. There's another problem, though.  Split where?  That is, which parts of this go into which article?  When does Tobi's story split off from the zombie-Madara?  Probably the best place to split is just after the fight with Hashirama, since we know whoever attacked twelve years before the start of the series was already wearing the mask.  But it's not certain.  Another issue:  Madara's name is used for Tobi everywhere on the wiki.  Probably a sweeping change should wait until we're more certain about who is what, but it's going to get confusing eventually if not addressed. --69.203.8.96 (talk) 17:42, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I support splitting the article. --BlackGhost91 (talk) 18:07, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

"...this is HIS doing... He definitely has something in mind... but what? things don't seem to be going according to plan ver well." That statement confirms Madara and Tobi are 2 different people. Madara has the Eternal Mangekyo, which evolves into the Rinnegan on Will. Tobi I believe only has the Mangekyo as seen in the Kyuubi's eyes when Tobi controlled it, because the eyes didn't look like that when Madara controlled the fox, look at the manga colored image, and they eyes don't look like that when Sasuke controlled Manda. So Tobi's right eye has the normal Mangekyo Sharingan and The left eye has the Rinnegan. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 18:42, October 19, 2011 (UTC)


 * I see no situation where, once split, the two articles would need to be merged together again. Even if Tobi turns out to be a genuine Madara, he has been autonomous from the original for too long to pretend that they are still the same person. For convenience's and common sense's sake, they should be regarded as separate entities.
 * As for where to split, I suggest anyone wearing a mask be regarded as Tobi until proven otherwise. I have already split the article along those lines. ~SnapperTo 18:45, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I also support splitting. Just put a warning of "False Information" on both articles.

Odd, since the mangekyo sharingan for Izuna on this wiki is identical to the one Madara used in chapter 560.-- SalmanH  (Talk)  19:39, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

So Snapper split the Madara bit. Someone can follow suit [without touching the actual article] and split the one for Tobi as well and present it for review.--Cerez365™ 19:44, October 19, 2011 (UTC)


 * I think the connection between Tobi and Madara can be made a bit stronger in those articles. The third databook leaves zero doubt about Tobi and Madara being the same person, after all. —ShounenSuki (talk 19:54, October 19, 2011 (UTC)


 * I think, I have to disagree with you this time, ShounenSuki. I don't realls know how to describe it in English, but let's give it a try: The Databooks are only true until the Manga says otherwise. In this case, Madara was Tobi up until now, because the Databook said so. But in the next, it will be otherwise, because now we know that the latest Databook isn't true anymore. Databooks tell the truth about the Manga chapter they cover, but most people like to take the as the one and only trustfull source for anything. This said, I agree to split the article, since the newest chapter strongly suggests that Tobi isn't Madara at all. Seelentau 愛議 20:00, October 19, 2011 (UTC)


 * But like you said. The Databook's always have old information. We will know if they are the same for sure when databook 4 comes out. Either way their articles need to be split as like Snapper2 said. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 19:58, October 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * I too think they're the same person. The fact that they know each other is just a plus. To me, Tobi's probably "Madara Uchiha's living clone- with a consciousness" it's the only thing that explains what is his apparent bodily make in my opinion. This seems like a twist that Kishimoto has had in mind for a long time and has been dropping subtle "hints" here and there to us. I really don't like the idea of another Uchiha being Tobi at all, in all honesty it's just lame...--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 20:13, October 19, 2011 (UTC)


 * The databooks do contain 'old' information that can be overturned with a simple manga quote, but when it comes to character backgrounds, I have never seen the databooks state something as clearly as this if it wasn't true. Hell, even at the time the third databook was published, the whole Madara–Tobi situation wasn't clear yet, but the databook still had nothing of doubt in them. I'm definately not saying the databook couldn't be wrong about this, but it would be highly unusual and uncharacteristic of Kishimoto-sensei's writing style and the Japanese language in general. —ShounenSuki (talk 20:21, October 19, 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't know ShounenSuki, the third databook has a great hint about Tobi and Madara as two completely differents being, I talk about the two different profiles for each one. Anyway it's a question more complicated, beacause personally I think that Edo-Madara is not dead after the fight with Shodai beacuse he has known Nagato (and in the last chapter is implied that at the time of his prime he hadn't the Rinnegan yet). Futhermore now I think that when in the flashback we have seen Tobi (during the revelation to the young Kisame, during the Kyuubi's attack, or the conversation with the young Itachi), the mask is not enough for saying that the man was Tobi, I think that the real element able to make the difference among the two characters are the hairs (that strangely Kishimoto has drawn inconstantely long in the Kisame and Itachi part, and short in the Kyuubi and in the present part): http://imageshack.us/f/638/madaratobinelpassato.png/


 * In the last I think that Tobi could be a part of Madara (in the mind or in the sprit, the corpse could be that of anyone with Zetsu parts) but also Izuna: I think that the greatest hint in the manga is that page: http://imageshack.us/f/10/madaraoizuna.jpg/ ;The body language of Madar when he talk about the self sacrifice of his brother and his spontaneous offer of his eyes (in contrast with the version of Itachi, that will be likely that true, with Madara that take the eyes by force) suggest heavily that or Tobi feel remorse for the fact (so he is a part or has memories of Madara) or feels resentment (so he must be the brother Izuna with memory of the fact).


 * I know that what I've said are only hypothesis, anyway I don't think so improbable or unreal, but for now we can only discuss using them--JK88 (talk) 20:23, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I support the notion of splitting the articles under the masked=Tobi, unmasked=Madara notion as well. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:36, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

Loving the split :) Timeel39 (talk) 01:32, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

I still don't think the split is good. I mean, there are two Zetsus (White and Black), but they got a combined page. Same here, Madara and Tobi may still be one entity with two different bodies, like Zetsu, more or less. So unless we have absolute confirmation that Tobi and Madara are two completely different people, we should continue to keep it in one page. Just use subheadings to separate the "two people's" abilities. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 02:48, October 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * Personally I would prefer not to split. As such, if they do happen to be one in the same, then the articles can be changed (again) to reflect that. If they are indeed two separate people then we just save ourselves time later.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 03:01, October 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * So, what should we do? Since there isn't enough confirmation that Madara and Tobi are two completely different entities (like Black Zetsu and White Zetsu), we should re-merge the pages. Like when Mu split in two, it's not like we created a page like "Mu's split double" or something. Another prime example, Sakon and Ukon are one page despite being two characters, due to being too similar and close to split, same case for Madara and Tobi. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 04:55, October 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * I mean, here's a theory: let's say the revived Madara is just a portion of the still living one (Tobi) (i.e. he somehow split his soul, and while he died he left a piece of his remaining soul on earth). This theory is as valid as "Madara and Tobi are two completely different people". So with both ways being equally (in)valid, we might as well not be so hasty in splitting the page until we have absolute confirmation, when the living Madara arrives at the battlefield to confirm everything. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 05:01, October 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * If you're not confident enough to add the false info template, then you really shouldn't split it yet. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 05:07, October 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'd say when in doubt, look for precedent. The third databook gave both Tobi and Madara a separate article, despite them being revealed to be the same person before. They're even said to be the same person in the databook articles themselves.
 * As I said before, even if they're the same person, it'd be no problem having two articles on them. Not only are there now two instances of Madara walking about, these two Madara also have different roles in the stories and will most likely have somewhat deviating backgrounds. Two articles will allow us to detail that without too much confusion, and we can always merge them again if needed.
 * I think split articles on the two Zetsu wopuldn't be such a bad idea either, by the way, but that is an issue of lesser importance. —ShounenSuki (talk 09:31, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

I think we should wait for more info on Zetsu before splitting or not splitting his article. After all, there is very little info about the black half at the moment. As to Madara, I like the split. Even if Tobi is actually Madara/his clone/has a part of his soul, they still have two very different and distinct roles. --kiadony --talk to me-- 10:05, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

Fire Style
It was shown in Naruto Shippuden: Ultimate Ninja Storm 2 that Tobi could use Fire Style. Should this be included in the article with "Game Only" next to it? Diamonddeath (talk) 22:30, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

No. The games are ignored in the articles due to discrepancies and such. Skitts (talk) 23:02, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

There are other articles where "Game Only" is applied, or at least I think so, unless they were all removed. Diamonddeath (talk) 05:24, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

Kirigakure Affiliation
Why was the Kirigakure affiliation removed? Kisame still identified Tobi as the (real) Mizukage and he was shown in flashbacks as such. Timeel39 (talk) 01:38, October 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * Gonna say it's an oversight and put it back in. It's clear he was the shadow leader of Kiri for a while.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 02:36, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

Elements
I haven't checked who added it or why, but Tobi has been given all of the basic elements in his infobox. If we're going to do that for him, who only recently had the Rinnegan implanted versus Madara who awakened it, I don't see why they shouldn't be added to his as well. Skitts (talk) 17:08, October 20, 2011 (UTC)