Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-26636534-20180830184727/@comment-34194151-20181217021140

@Ninja Of War The proof of the stun is the "ugh" which kabuto registers not only in chapter 580 but also in Chapter 586. The crows very clearly have a momentary stunning effect, which allowed Itachi to successfully strike kabuto despite the latter almost successfully dodging both times... Kabuto thinks he countered itachi because of his healing and because itachi only managed to cut off a horn, but he doesn't know that the cutting of the horn is what itachi is going for. The crows are not only unexpected, because both hebi sasuke and kabuto registered a "?!" when they appeared, but in kabuto's case itachi added a stunning effect which even caused kabuto to drop the sword both times, which is what allowed Itachi to catch the sword in the first place both times... After that, everything else occurred in izanami, but still.

The point is, the stunning effect created by the crows was powerful enough to physically disorient kabuto, the same kabuto who has the exact same enhancements orochimaru does. In fact, kabuto absorbed a huge part of orochimaru himself as shown in the canon, so I can in fact credibly argue that the feat is directly applicable. to this versus debate. Clearly, sage mode and hashirama cells aren't a sufficient protection against the the crows.

As for orochimaru being deceived, he will in fact be decieved because itachi itachi is smarter and more calculated than orochimaru is in battle based on feats, and more importantly, faster. Itachi still has the best hand seal speed feats in the manga. He clearly trained his handseal speed to the point that a 3 tomoe sharingan could not viably track it, much like rock lee physically trained his speed despite having little to no chakra control skills to be one of the fastest characters among his peers... In the time it took for Itachi to sheath his shurikens against kakashi, itachi already:casted the hand signs for a water style technique, a shadow clone, and a substitution technique such that kakashi and kurenai didn't notice it until after the fact.

Now, many ninja have shown the ability to substitute with clones out of nowhere. Yamato did it to orochimaru. Sai did it to orochimaru. Madara did it to the 5 kages. Hashirama did to madara at the valley of the end. Kakashi himself did it to itachi and several other shinobi, but the reason I find Itachi's so special is because he doesn't rely on line of sight blockers to do it. He does it in plain sight. Itachi is clearly on par with hashirama in his clone feinting skill, because he clone feinted sage mode kabuto twice without the latter noticing, and by extension, he also clone feinted EMS sasuke. sasuke has the pinnacle of sharingan doujutsu yet he did not notice itachi substituting with a clone right in front of his own eyes. If kakashi could do clone feints the way itachi did, we would have seen him do it many times, instead kakashi always relies on sneaking underground first or sneaking underwater or using smokescreens/line of sight blockers. Meanwhile, Itachi near instantly got behind kakashi without using any vision obstructions. Meanwhile, itachi ran towards kabuto, kabuto stabbed him, and it turned out to be a clone out of nowhere.

Given those feats, why is orochimaru so special that he can track itachi's clone formations when comparable shinobi (EMS sasuke, Sage mode Kabuto) couldn't? We have to look at how the battle would play out. Orochimaru as per canon starts out his edo tensei fights by first weaving the seals to summon edo tensei coffins. Itachi steals initiative using his super handseal speed, he can prep his shadow clone/crow clone and substitution just like he has done canonically on more than one occasion. We have seen canonically, itachi would use a high level ninjutsu also during this time. He is facing edo tensei. So here is how it goes, susano'o forms in literal fractions of a second. He would most certainly use his yakasa matagama just like he did to kabuto first. (Think of that as the water style jutsu he used against kakashi). Then the clone feint happens, except this time he does 2 crow clones instead of one because he is facing multiple enemies here. (Think of that as the shadow clone feint/crow clone feint he used on both kakashi and kabuto). Lastly, Itachi goes for a finishing blow. In this case, he won't be using sasuke's sword nor tsykuyomi in my opinion, instead he uses the totsuka blade because that is the only thing that will finish orochimaru and his edo tensei....

Now on Totsuka blade, unfortunately, I'm gonna have to keep pressuring you with this. While it's true that Nagato, in theory, couldn't use the preta path or shinra tensei... Again, he is still a rinnegan user. He still has substitution, an E rank technique, to leave a log in his place while safely avoids the technique. He still has summoning animals available (like the salamander, the panda bear, the lobster, etc), he still has asura path. All he has to do is ATTEMPT anything that could deflect the blade. The fact that he couldn't take any physical or even mental action proves the blade's speed was too fast for his nervous system to handle. IF you are telling me that there was nothing in Nagato's vast arsenal that Kabuto could have used to deflect that giant blade then all that proves is how rediculously overpowered that blade is. And in that instance, Itachi didn't even use his signature clone feint, he didn't use any kind of genjutsu... all things he would be doing in this hypothetical battle to increases the already high chances of the totsuka blade hitting these 3 opponents.

Team orochimaru's action during the hurling of the yakasa matagama has to be pinpoint, otherwise they will lose control of the fight. During that time, all Konan's arsenal allows her to do is fires her paper bombs, which just get walled by susano'o, and guess what, those create more smokescreens which makes it even harder to see the blade coming. The only thing kimimaro can viably do is his bracken dance, which Itachi already knows about as per canon, and I have already proven how he can counter that technique. What will orochimaru do exactly? He has a wide arsenal of techniques, but he has to choose the optimal one or else he is good as dead, because regardless of what he does, he has no way of stopping itachi's bijuu dama size from exploding. the purpose of the yakasa beads is to create a smokescreen/box his opponents in/ disorient them, which is what allowed sasuke's susano'o arrow to tag kabuto.... Once they explode, it's game over because the totsuka blade is coming next, as per canon. So what will orochimaru do to stop it? How does he deal with the fact that itachi's crow clones will already be primed to momentarily stun his teammates?

Furthermore, it took chiyo and sakura a while to even notice that naruto was trapped in genjutsu, so partner method isn't some instantenous counter to genjutsu. So you know what? What's stopping itachi from throwing his beads, pointing at kimimaro using his faster handseal speed and is comparable to how he was able to sheath shurikens against kakashi after weaving his other techniques in his robe, and substituting with his clone(s)?. The clones have been shown to use jutsu. Itachi's crow clone was seen using genjutsu on naruto during the sasuke vs itachi arc. So Itachi's crow clone can cast katon to dissipate any paper attacks from konan. Kimimaro is stopped in his tracks temporarily. By the time konan dispatches the crow clone knows to release kimimaro through partner method, the beads would have already gone off, and totsuka blade seals orochimaru. then the fight proceeds as I have stated.