Talk:Tobi

'''NOTE: Please do not add theories on who Madara Uchiha is. Unless it is confirmed, it will not be put into articles. Narutopedia is not a Forum. If you would like to discuss your theories with people, go to a Naruto forum, search for one on Google.'''

Past Speculation
this section,i think,is a bit lcking.what about the theory that madara is danzo?the tobi is obito stuff should be kept but add the newer theory that madra might be danzo.76.235.61.246 (talk) 18:36, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Key word: past. This is not the place to collect any and all current theories. ~SnapperTo 18:56, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes and do not post that Tobi is somebody it was proven already so give up. Why would Tobi tell Sasuke to kill all the Kage's ?

he is not Danzo, how do i now, if you see the episode when Tobi and Deidara are fighting the trhee tailed beast you can see that the skin color of his fits are alot more clreare than the skin of Danzo that is more darker or tan, i thoug for a moment that it could be posible that it was Shisui fits, but Ao stated with his byakugan that the only part of his shakra was in his eye and arm. sow it can be eder or the real body of madara or Obito since both have the same color of skin, its kinda funny to clear these with only the fits isnt it, but still i think that i will finally cleare everithyng once Tobi shows to Sasuke his sharingan.

Arrogant?
Guys, the translation used to base the "minion" part on was taken from a SleepyFans translation, which somehow doesn't enjoy much respect among scanlators. The translation found on MangaShare suggests that Madara called Pain a "subordinate". This is a factual claim, because he could order Pain around, but doesn't have the pejorative flavor of "minion". Dunno if this detail is important enough... Xfing (talk) 14:49, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Madara's powers?
If Madara was the previous Mizukage, he might have been very skilled with Water Release Ninjutsu. He's from the Uchiha Clan too, right? He must have known how to use Fire release: Great Fireball Technique. How come he does not have that on his page?
 * Because e dont speculate, so we'd rather put up jutsu's he been seen using, or stated using...--AlienGamer--Talk-- 09:29, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Remove
Can someone remove the "NOTE: Please do not add theories on who Madara Uchiha is. Unless it is confirmed, it will not be put into articles. Narutopedia is not a Forum. If you would like to discuss your theories with people, go to a Naruto forum, search for one on Google." because it is already proven in the latest manga he admit it that he is Madara Uchiha. Kyuubinaruto123 (talk) 07:27, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That doesn't stop people from speculating...--AlienGamer--Talk-- 07:36, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh ok well if u can add that it was confirmed in the manga that Tobi is Madara Uchiha at the last line it would be great... or not. Kyuubinaruto123 (talk) 07:47, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It was confirmed as early as the Hunt for Uchiha Arc, when Madara revealed himself, and explained evrything....--AlienGamer--Talk-- 08:14, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Why does no-one believe who Madara Uchiha really is... Madara Uchiha. --Shum1x (talk) 09:07, 22 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Because people enjoy speculating...--AlienGamer--Talk-- 09:30, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Because he wears a mask, he claimed to be Tobi, why couldn't he claim to be someone else? That's why (I think, but that's why I did)Papayaking (talk) 20:12, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Attempt on the Mizukage (which one?)
Who was the Mizukage that Zabuza tried to kill, Yagura or Madara?? Kisame recognized Madara as the Mizukage, which means that Madara was the Mizukage up until Kisame left the village, shortly after him Zabuza left too. Still, when Zabuza was a kid the Mizukage was Yagura, he was the Fourth Mizukage, in other words the previous Mizukage before the Fifth. It is also stated that he was under some sort of Genjutsu. Bottom line: it appears that there were two Mizukages at the same timeline... Was Yagura being controlled by Madara thanks to his Sharingan? Can Madara really do that to a Kage(despite the fact that Madara could control the Nine Tails, and despite the fact that the Fourth had the Three Tails in him)???


 * We don't know who Zabuza tried to kill. I'd guess Yagura but there's no certainty, it could also be the current Mizukage. I would bet on Yagura being controlled by Madara, being a kage doesn't necessarily mean one can't be controlled and Madara might've had things set up in advance, possibly controlling him before he became kage or something. ZeroSD (talk) 10:45, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Maybe Madara used Genjutsu to fool Kisame!Memo$ (talk) 18:31, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


 * This isn't a forum. Maybe, maybe not. Untill its confirmed, it doesn't matter either way as it will not be put into the article...--AlienGamer--Talk (contribs)-- 18:34, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I think maybe that Madara was the one who was using the 4th mizukage ,Yagura, because we know he cant be the 4th or 5th mizukages and we know that zabuza likely made his assassination attempt on the 4th mizukage because he was the one who made the graduation ceremony stop and the one that started the graduation ceremony was the 4th mizukage and maybe Kisame was helping Madara to control him or something Narutosagemaster (talk) 06:16, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

But still that doestn explian how did the three tailed was separated from Yagura thats one thing, did Madara was able to extract the tailed beast in a failed atempt and in weak state, now we do not alos now if Madara was the second or the third, most probably the third; I think that it was Madara who created the seven whcih would explain and support theory of Zabuza and Kisame nokwing him, now did Zabuza got agaisnt Madara for power of the village or did he wanted to kill Yagura because he new Madaras plans on killing him in the atempt of extraction of the tailed beast, Yagura also sims to be very young while the fith seems to be much older.

I think that what happened was, that ones Madara lost the battle agaisnt the first, he traveled to the village of the mist, their he became a ninja like Haku wich would explian the mask style, ones the second died he became th third using gentjutsu and steal remaing with his mask, th second created the exams, Madara created the sevens still using his mask only showing him to does who he trusted, the Yagura came and had the tailed beast inside wich was the first step to achive a complete form, Zabuza new about these plans and tried to kill Madara, then cage the roll to Yagura and did something similar as Sasori, tried to extract the sanbi, failed, killed Yagura, got alot more wickerd, needed help used Danzo or Obito body to entare Konoha, left the hidden mist, the fith was closed to Yagura sow asumed the roll of the mizukage.

Takuya Uzumaki october 30 2009.

I'm glad we have such precautionary rules in place that keep such horrible fanfic ideas like yours from being put on the pages in this site.Saimaroimaru (talk) 04:34, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Previous Rows
I'm not too sure, y it shouldn't be used, but its misleading if its under current isn't it? I mean he hates konoha since before the series started, and he was Mizukage before the series started as well.. It seems like he's still loyal to them, which we all know he isn't..--AlienGamer--Talk (contribs)-- 06:55, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * And ofcourse the Uchiha clan which he abandoned before the series started...--AlienGamer--Talk (contribs)-- 06:56, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you're right about things that happened before the series started. That should be cleared up. However, affiliation means more than being loyal to something. It can also indicate origin or association. In that respect, he is still, even at this point in the series, affiliated with Konohagakure, Kirigakure, and the Uchiha clan and one could argue that he's still a Mizukage, even if he isn't active any more. --ShounenSuki (talk 07:10, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Ya, but wasn't the "previous rows" added to prevent confusion, and constant editing ::::S?..--AlienGamer--Talk (contribs)-- 07:12, 1 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree wit AlienGamer....btw ShounenSuki did u ever get the time 2 make the icons?--Moiz1224 (talk) 07:14, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

As far as I know, the "previous" rows were a leftover from when the infoboxes were shared between wikis. They were never supposed to be used, although I do agree that they could serve a purpose for things from before the series started. However, the wiki is supposed to be relevant to any point within the series. E.g. if a character was affiliated with Konoha at the beginning of the series, but switched allegiance to another village (like Kabuto), we shouldn't say he was previously affiliated with Konoha, since the wiki should be as relevant to that period during the series, as to any other. --ShounenSuki (talk 10:57, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Then at the very least i'll change the things which were past...--AlienGamer--Talk (contribs)-- 10:59, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Btw, before we make these changes wiki wide, I think we should create a forum for it, and get all the input from the community...--AlienGamer--Talk (contribs)-- 11:01, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Good idea, we need to clear this matter up properly. --ShounenSuki (talk 12:37, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I had planned to destroy "Previous" rows in the new character infobox. Well, actually the focus was getting rid of constant edits to teams because of characters switching between teams like the 8-man and indivdiaul 3-man teams. I was thinking of leaving a special row for cases like Sasuke who did actually leave a team, but even that could be dropped. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Sep 1, 2009 @ 17:09 (UTC)
 * Wat about cases like Madara, who left Konoha & the Uchiha clan before the start of the series, and was also a mizukage, again probably before the series started...--AlienGamer--Talk (contribs)-- 17:12, September 1, 2009 (UTC)

First I'd again like to point out that Madara is still affiliated with the Uchiha clan, Konoha and Kiri, despite no longer being loyal to them. That said, I believe we could do completely without the "previous" rows, even in cases where something happened before the series started. --ShounenSuki (talk 07:58, September 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * I dont mind either way, but i think once thats done there will be a lot of...eh...wrong edits done. But it'd be nice if we had the opinion of the rest of the community..--AlienGamer--Talk (contribs)-- 08:03, September 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * I copied this discussion to Forum:"Previous" rows in infoboxes. I believe that is a better place to discuss this. --ShounenSuki (talk 12:29, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

Family Section
I think we shood put Sage of the Six Paths (ancestor) in the family section? wat do u think??--Moiz1224 (talk) 04:21, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah,maybe he's Madara's grandad or something like that24.161.127.236 (talk) 04:22, September 5, 2009 (UTC)


 * No, its not a clear family connection, and ontop of that, there's no indication at all that he's a decedanat of the Sage...--AlienGamer--Talk (contribs)-- 05:40, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

What about Hashirama and Madara being distant cousins? They are descendants of the two brothers. Yatanogarasu 23:53, September 4, 2009 (UTC)


 * Again, not a clear connection, and not a close relashionship either. Look as Sasuke & Madara. They're much closer, but it isn't listed under family, because its a distant relashionship...--AlienGamer--Talk (contribs)-- 08:09, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

What about Itachi and Sasuke? They're the sons of the clan head, so maybe they're related to Madara or his little brother?
 * You clearly said maybe there for saying even you don't know. Only confirmed facts go in the articles.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 01:36, February 1, 2010 (UTC)

Valley of the End picture
How about an anime picture of Madara's statue at the Valley of the End instead of the manga picture? Near the end of the Sasuke retrieval arc there are plenty of clear pictures with his statue. - MadaraU (talk) 07:03, September 12, 2009 (UTC)

Madara's Mangekyo Symbol
Hi, just wanting to contribute with something.

From what I know, Madara's own Mangekyo prior to becoming eternal with his brother's is a symbol from Tibet, their version of Yin Yang.

Maybe add that to the Trivia?

MilPassaros (talk) 12:51, September 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Could you clarify that? I didn't know Tibet had their own Yin-Yang symbol. --ShounenSuki (talk 13:48, September 24, 2009 (UTC)

Madara's jutsu
I think we should puta Fire into Madara's Jutsu. He was Uchiha, so he have afiniltry to Katon Jutsu (sorry for my bad English, it's not my first language)
 * We only lists what they have used. Jacce | Talk 15:13, September 24, 2009 (UTC)

Ok, just thought of something..............Madara(Tobi) helped Itachi destroy the Uchiha Clan........So that Sasuke could gain power and a Sharingan..........And soon Itachi and Sasuke fought.........Itachi transplanted his Mangekyo Sharingan to Sasuke...........Then Itachi died, then Madara told Sasuke the real story of Itachi............The second Sasuke opened his eyes Madara almost got killed by black fire........Because maybe when Itachi was transplanting his Mangekyo to Sasuke's eye he set the Mangekyo too sensetive to Tobi's presence.............And thats how the story goes.............I just want to contribute, if you dont like it change my post.

Image Quality
The pic being currently used in Madara's background article is bluring and of bad quality, can we go back to the manga image or can someone upload and use a better version of the current one.Saimaroimaru (talk) 23:07, October 11, 2009 (UTC)
 * What image are you talking about exactly? - MadaraU (talk) 06:17, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

I think he is talking about the picture that shows him in his youth with the big fan and the konoha headband--Masgrande (talk) 05:35, October 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * Aha. Well we could replace that one with his youthful appearance picture from episode 130. - MadaraU (talk) 05:58, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

Logic tells us that...
If nothing happened to further weaken Madara since his battle with Hashirama, currently he is just as powerful as he was sixteen years ago during the Fox Attack on Konoha when he could use the Fox as a pet (Minato said that Madara used the Kyuubi in the attack). Why do I feel to point that out? One reason would be to point out that he may not be as powerless as he claims to be (of course even his statement that he is powerless can have multiple interpretations such as: he is powerless compared to how he was in his prime etc...). Another reason would be to point out that if the Fox were to not be sealed inside Naruto he could still use it as a pet ergo he can use any other Bijuu and probably that is how he will probably make his war. Of course the last part was the stuff of forum, but I could not help myself:) In the end I think that we should draw what we can out of this and put something in the abilities section along the lines of: In truth he may not be as powerless as he claims to be, because... Tell me if I have approval for this. - MadaraU (talk) 06:10, October 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * But that's not based on anything. He might be stronger than he says he is and he might have lied about Itachi's past. There's no reason to say he's lying other than it would be expected of a villain. (Incidentally, he is not as powerful as he was 16 years ago since he no longer has the demon fox to control.) ~SnapperTo 23:33, October 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah but he still has the ability to control it and therefore any other tailed beast (out of the ones which he already possesses). I merely brought it up as something to be put in the abilities section, but it's okay if it is not to be included yet in the article. - MadaraU (talk) 06:12, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

The tails beast were apparently all more controllable then Kyuubi which could only be controlled by sharingan, exemplefied by the fact I think they said The First Hokage had like four that he gave away to balance the world out.Anonymous


 * While is is likely that the Nine-Tails is the hardest Tailed Beast to control, it was capable of being controlled by other means, such as the First Hokage's technique. --Enoki911 (talk) 03:48, December 17, 2009 (UTC)Enoki911

Wind release.
This is simply a doubt but Uchiha Madara uses a fan which implies he can use wind doesn't it? Probably we should wait until it is cleared up but it is quite certain from the depictions of his fight with the first hokage.
 * Not necessarily. It could serve as a shield, or perhaps he uses it with a Fire jutsu, you know, fanning the flames. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:10, October 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * That is the reason the fan is the Uchiha clan symbol- they work well with fire use. ZeroSD (talk) 10:58, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah that sounds logical... sorry to change subject rather abruptly but to me it seems that in this same battle Uchiha Madara uses also a scythe. Shouldn't we appoint that?Neji uchiha (talk) 04:52, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * "He was armed with a giant kusarigama war fan attached to it during the time of Konoha's founding". ~SnapperTo 05:05, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * That style of war fan isnt actually used in any sort of "fan" nature, it's used to block incoming projectiles.--SkyFlicker (talk) 21:55, November 3, 2009 (UTC)

Fire style
shouldnt, tobi/madara have listed the fire style since he is afterall an uchiha, all the uchiha have shown to be able to perform a fire style, and theres is alos that the fire style is the kekkei genkai if the uchiha, and he also has and is the first one to developed the mangenkyo sharingan sow he sould now how to use the amaterasu.
 * We only list what the character has used, and since Madara hasn't used fire or Amaterasu, we don't list it. Jacce | Talk 18:00, November 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * Is the drawing/painting like passage of episode 136 showing him using a Fire technique enough to list him as a Fire Release user? The one just after him getting the eternal Mangekyo. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:04, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

tobi/madara plan
what is tobi/madara for and y did he told sasuke

mizukage
madara should be the 3 because he was at the Konohagakure founding.so he couldn't be the first mizukage.plus it was mant years that the uchiha say no to madara plan and fought the first hokage. so he cant be the 2 mizukage.kisamne stated thathe know him as the mizukage. he gotta b e the 3 because the 4 and 5 must started so that explain everything.
 * This is not a forum, until the series tells us what number Madara had, it remains unknown. Jacce | Talk 07:07, November 4, 2009 (UTC)

New Demension
Can someone put up an image of the demension that Madara sent Karin and sasuke to. because I think that would be really good to add to the page. Narutosagemaster (talk) 03:52, November 5, 2009 (UTC)

New Picture
There is a great picture of Madara sitting on his statue in the Valley of the End, with a clear short of his entire upper body, including his shiringan (which the current background picture doesn't have) from a short 2 second clip from NARUTO SHIPPUDEN EPISODE 134. Could we use that picture instead of the current one as a background picture, since it shows A) more of Madara's body, B) is in a dead-on direct view, C) shows his shiringan AND mask, and D) shows his statue is one high quality picture. For some reason I am unable to add the picture myself.

Appearance
please add the Appearance part cuz we don't have it

How is madara gonna seal the 8 and 9 tailed beasts
Well I know hes going to try to use sasuke to use the demonc statue thing but how is he gonna seal it by himself I mean it takes 3 days for like 10 or so akatsuki members to seal a tailed beast and since the akatsuki are s-class missing-nin they usually have huge reserves of chakra how is madara possibly going to do it by himself I know hes like 200-300 years old and must have a huge ammount of chakra but I dont know how he will pull it off and if he tries to it would take forever for it to be sealed completely? Ughh my head hurts..
 * This kind of topic is better of on a forum. The talk pages are for article-related conversations only.
 * Also, Madara is 100-years-old at most and there are most likely plenty of high-level shinobi willing to help him. --ShounenSuki (talk 20:56, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

How about the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path? I know only Pain can summon this Statue to seal the bijuu Even if he has other ways how can he retrieve the other bijuu if he cannot summon the statue??? -joboyaltar--121.54.92.57 (talk) 05:46, December 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * He, Kisame and Zetsu tried to seal the eight tails by themselves, so Madara seams to know where it is. Jacce | Talk 07:55, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

But they did that before Nagato died... -joboyaltar--121.54.92.57 (talk) 05:05, December 26, 2009 (UTC)

This trivia part has no place in Madara's article
Tobi is the only "villain" with a sense of humor. Besides the fact that it is pointless... he is not the only villain with a sense of humor. Orochimaru at least had a lot of sense of humor (even if it was a bit twisted) and Hidan as well. Besides it is a forced sensed of humor etc. This trivia part should be removed - MadaraU (talk) 15:52, December 4, 2009 (UTC)

THE Appearance PART....
people please add the Appearance part because there isn't any in madara's page.--94.183.156.236 (talk) 11:11, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

Madara has the habit of overestimating people
I think you should put that in the trivia section heres some examples

1. Over-estimating Taka beleiving they could get the 8 tails Failed

2. Over-estimating Sasuke beleiving he could beat the Kages Failed

3. Over-estimating Kisame thinking he could get the 8 tails Failed (ended up with Kisame getting Killed by Raikage and Killer Bee)

I think you should put that in the trivia section. --TheBlueBlur (talk) 23:10, December 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * The only person he is overestimating is Sasuke, really, since he never seems to have expected Jūgo, Suigetsu, and Karin to be able to defeat Killer B. Also, it does not look like he actually expected Sasuke to defeat the Five Kage. Killer B faced a humiliating defeat against Kisame. Madara did not underestimate Kisame, who did exactly as he was ordered and then some. Madara never expected Kisame to be able to defeat both the Raikage and Killer B.
 * So that brings those three examples down to one true example of Madara underestimating someone. --ShounenSuki (talk 23:22, December 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * For the record, Madara himself stated that he overestimated Sasuke, because he thought that he could weaken the Five Kage's enough to take them hostage. (Chapter 467, p. 9) Therefore, he overestimated Sasuke twice.
 * I agree though, that this is not worthy of being put in the trivia section. -Enoki911 (talk) 20:47, December 27, 2009 (UTC)

Amaterasu
He can use Amaterasu, we see him use it when stopping Konoha from getting to Sasuke and Itachi's location. The leaves blow through the wind in the silent night ~Myself (talk) 00:35, December 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * That was Itachi's leftovers, not Madara's doing ~SnapperTo 03:55, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

Regeneration?
Well since it is Friday in the wiki's time, I don't think this counts as a spoiler anymore. At the beginning of Chapter 475, Madara loses his arm due to cell eating bugs from Torune. Yet, near the ending of the chapter, .....is my eyes playing tricks on me or does he appear to have both arms? It is hard to tell because of the Akatsuki cloak, but it appears he has both arms. --Juubi no Ryuu (talk) 05:04, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

Most likely, yes. He did get hit with Amaterasu and admitted that it should have killed him (yet he appears just fine) on that note, why does it say he only has been hit with a single attack in all his screentime? Sasuke's Amaterasu hit him. Suigetsu hit him as well.

It seemed to me that he was still missing the arm...I could see his sleeve, but no hand. --Enoki911 (talk) 05:23, December 15, 2009 (UTC)Enoki911

Teleportation
It was mentioned by Shino in either chapter 395 or 396 that Madara hadn't had the power of teleportation, but the power to control the space time continuum. Here's the page (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/395/09/) and here's Kakashi's analyzation of the technique (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/395/10/) I think the title of his space technique in the abilities section should be changed... --FlamingDogs17 (talk) 02:39, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * That is what we call a mistranslation. Shino doesn't say teleportation, he says Body Flicker Technique. Teleportation is the instant movement of an object from point A to point B, without traversing the points between them. This is exactly what Madara seems to do.
 * He uses a space-time ninjutsu to do it, yes, but that is mentioned in the article. --ShounenSuki (talk 09:07, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Antagonist
The introductory paragraph says that Madara is reponsible for the Nine-Tailed Fox Attack and for the Uchiha clan massacre. I don't think that this should be there. There is still the possiblity, however small, that Madara is telling the truth, and the Nine-Tailed Fox's attack on Konoha was a natural disaster. As for the Uchiha clan massacre, even though he participated in it, he wasn't really responsible for it, as it was (probably) the elder's idea. --Enoki911 (talk) 03:45, December 17, 2009 (UTC)Enoki911


 * Jiraiya, Itachi, and Minato have all blamed him. 3 > 1. ~SnapperTo 03:52, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * That is true, and I will concede that he is probably responsible. However, I still believe that he is not responsible for the Uchiha clan massacre. --Enoki911 (talk) 04:09, December 17, 2009 (UTC)Enoki911
 * Don't Itachi, Danzō, and Madara himself claim he was at least partly responsible for the massacre? --ShounenSuki (talk 08:40, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * The latest fanbook confirms that he fought Minato during the 9-tails attack.--Masgrande (talk) 12:03, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Partly responsible, perhaps, as he was involved. However, it was not his plot, so I don't think that it should be included under the "responsible for" part of the paragraph. Also, when did Danzo say that Madara was responsible? --76.233.199.1 (talk) 07:43, December 18, 2009 (UTC)Enoki911

Above paragraph mine, forgot that I logged out. --Enoki911 (talk) 07:44, December 18, 2009 (UTC)Enoki911

Trivia
"Madara is the fourth person in Naruto Shippūden to loose an arm; the first being Deidara, then Jiraya, then the Fourth Raikage being the third."

One, other than this saying Naruto: Shippuden which normally refers to the anime, this Trivia point is somewhat false as there has been other people who have lost their arms in the total series, Inari's father in the manga had his arms cut off, Orochimaru lost an arm fighting Naruto (though he then just shed his body...) there was another person in that list I am sure of....can't remember who though. Meh. --Juubi no Ryuu (talk) 23:57, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

Wait, Madara lost an arm? Cood any1 tell me wat chapter this was?--Moiz1224 (talk) 07:57, December 25, 2009 (UTC) Nvm i found the chapter...it was 475--Moiz1224 (talk) 08:02, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

I've...
...put a new pic of Madara at the time of Konohagakure's founding. Why? Because: I've taken care that the file respects the license or whatever it's called so that there are no problems with it being in the article and so forth. I know that other users have tried to place this pic instead of the 'Madara with the Kyuubi in the background' one, but every time it was reverted. Considering the reasons I've just listed and the fact that there is no problem with the license, I will keep on putting this pic until I get banned or it is left this way, if anyone tries to replace it:) Cheers - MadaraU (talk) 13:39, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * 1) The old pic was very cool, but it was not from the anime (I know that any pic from the manga remains in the article until it appears in the anime)
 * 2) This picture shows him best as belonging to the emerging Konohagakure faction (wearing the headband)
 * I put back the old image. The old old one shows almost all of Madara's body, in colour, the one you put up doesn't.
 * Manga images are usually replaced by anime images, but not if that involves a loss of quality. Madara also wears the Konoha forehead protector in the old image. --ShounenSuki (talk 14:22, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * It looks nasty, he looks like a freaking Undead who just smoke pot. There is another pic in the anime that shows Madara full body (when he is sitting next to Hashirama in front of the Konoha army), but that looks even nastier because it is low-res. The one I (and many other users) wanted to put is far clearer -it shows Madara exactly as he is, seeing as the article has no picture of grown-up Madara (he is either shown wearing the mask or he is too young or etc)- The photo I am trying to upload not only shows him in his prime, but also shows his Eternal Mangekyou (I know that the Eternal Mangekyou is shown further down the page, but here I am talking about the total aesthetic of the character). So what if it is not in color? I frankly prefer this one (with its eerie look -HEY IT'S MADARA, YOU KNOW, THE CRIMINAL MASTERMIND-) and it has color (the sharingan). Perhaps I will start a conflict, but I will revert it back to the photo I (and many other users) wanted to put. Try to see things from the point of view I just exposed. Tks - MadaraU (talk) 15:13, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not taking a side on this, because to be quite frank, I really don't care...yet. But who are these "others" you are referring to MadaraU?--TheUltimate3 (talk) 15:43, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * This is going to be fun ^^ Let's see~
 * Your eternal Mangekyō Sharingan argument is weak. You can barely see it in the new image, even at the highest resolution. In fact, looking at the full-sized image, I can't tell whether it is the eternal Mangekyō Sharingan, the regular Mangekyō Sharingan, or the ordinary Sharingan.
 * The old picture also shows Madara in his prime. In fact, the two images should be from around the same time, as Madara wasn't a Konoha shinobi for long.
 * This image is supposed to illustrate Madara. Colour is very important for that. The old image also shows almost all of his body, allowing it to illustrate Madara far better than the new image.
 * Accuracy and usefulness are more important than giving off an eerie feel.
 * You say the old image makes Madara look like "a freaking Undead who just smoke pot." I'll admit I like the description, but I don't see how it applies. The old image shows Madara as he is, only with his eyes closed. He doesn't look much different from the new image.
 * As TheUltimate3 asked, what other users want the new image?
 * Your turn MadaraU. --ShounenSuki (talk 15:56, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

The other users, I'm referring to, are the ones who kept trying to put this picture I am trying to put. It can be seen in the history of the pic that you are trying to put. I don't see why it is so important to show him full body (many characters are shown only from shoulders up) You say that accuracy and usefulness are more important... in that case we should have the image that best show the character's features. Like I said before, the article does not have any photo that shows him clearly (it has photos of him wearing his masks, him being young, but not one showing him truly perfectly drawn -as anime and manga are supposed to be- when in his prime. The photo you insist on is distorted -I see it that way at least-) Besides, Madara Uchiha -the character- was first shown in the manga and anime with this picture (it was the first picture ever of Madara -excepting the statue of course which does not count in my opinion for it is a representation of a representation-). I was under the impression that the first image of a newly introduced character is put in his article (with regards to quality etc of course, but the pictures that are put are the ones which appear amongst the first). And by the way, you can see his Eternal Mangekyou (but indeed it does not count that much seeing as the Eternal Mangekyou is further down below). I do not like discussions such as this one etc (not on the Internet at least -where it can go on forever-) so we can have it this way: leave the photo uploaded by me to show Madara during Konoha's founding and the picture you want leave it in order to show Madara fully geared in his battle armor or smth. I hope you like this compromise - MadaraU (talk) 16:11, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * The old image is not distorted in any way. Yes, you see his face from a slight angle and with his eyes closed, but there is no distortion and you can see his features quite clearly. In fact, the old image shows more of his face and features than the new image.
 * The rule about using the first appearance of a character is about the image used in the infobox. If I'm not mistaken, the first time we saw Madara, he was wearing his mask, hence why we used that image.
 * The more we can show of a character, without loss of quality, the better the character is illustrated. A clear full-body image is more useful than an equally clear face shot.
 * The article does have a good image of Madara in his prime, as a Konoha shinobi. The old image you replaced.
 * There is no way anyone could identify the eternal Mangekyō Sharingan in the new image. You could make an educated guess, but you can't tell for sure.
 * The "many users" you were talking about are apparently you and two others who don't seem to have been active for months.
 * --ShounenSuki (talk 16:36, December 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * What you said about the databook image showing more of his face is not true at all. And the more I look at it I find it more dislikeable (for me at least)
 * What I said about the photo, that I suggest as being present, being the first representation of Madara is true because all the other representations up to that point were of Tobi. You had no idea of Madara's/Tobi face prior to that picture (it is the first picture of Madara and if it is not put in the infobox for reasons already discussed in the past... it should at least be put in the article)
 * I do not know why you coin your argument on "no loss of quality" because the image I've uploaded is perfect quality (it does not have colors, that's all... little or no color does not equal no quality).
 * This argument of yours: 'The article does have a good image of Madara in his prime, as a Konoha shinobi. The old image you replaced.' is void to me because you give no reason far saying it.
 * This argument of yours: 'There is no way anyone could identify the eternal Mangekyō Sharingan in the new image. You could make an educated guess, but you can't tell for sure.' I've already agreed with you that the Eien shown in the picture does not matter that much
 * My mistake for believing there were more who felt the same way I did (I just saw many reverts in the history of the photo, that's all)
 * Oh an btw it's good that you didn't even bother to say smth about the compromise I've offered to make ;) It shows me that you are keen on finding a solution to appease both you (an old user on this wiki) as well as me (a more recent user, but nonetheless an active user who has interest in seeing that the wiki is accurate and so forth) -> notice the irony - MadaraU (talk) 17:55, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * Still completely bored.
 * The older image does indeed show more.
 * If that image represent is anything, then in my opinion the old image wins again. His eyes are closed but you can clearly see the Nine-Tails being chained in the back. Very character defining.
 * Both image represent Madara in his brief time in Konoha.
 * The Eternal issue has been resolved without me butting in.
 * This is also a resolved issue.
 * Again, I really do not care at this point. Personally however, I lean more towards the old image, because its in full color as opposed to some creepy gray-scale with the single red Sharingan and hit has the chained Nine-Tails in the back, clearing demonstrating his dominance over it. But I understand the whole "switch to anime when it comes out" thing. I honestly have no idea what you were trying to say with a compromise because in all honestly, I could not get past "smth" which I believe is supposed to mean "something" but just looking at it makes me so angry for some reason. /shrug--TheUltimate3 (talk) 18:33, December 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * I also prefer the older image. It is from manga and yours MadaraU I think you found it on internet. Ttogafer (talk) 18:48, December 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * I never said your image was of lower quality. In fact, my words suggested they were of equal quality.
 * You said you wanted the new image because, among other reasons, it shows Madara in his prime as a Konoha shinobi. However, the old image also does that.
 * I said you couldn't see the eternal Mangekyō Sharingan. You said it didn't matter, but still brought it up in favour of your image. there is no agreement here.
 * I agree with TheUltimate3. Seeing smth makes me angry... especially in a polite, mature discussion.
 * As for your compromise... I see no possibility here. One image is enough, any more would be beyond fair use in my opinion. I am keen on finding a solution, but a compromise isn't one.
 * --ShounenSuki (talk 18:49, December 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * @Ttogafer; No that image was from the anime, when Jiraiya was talking to the toad key about Madara.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 19:03, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * I didn't notice that image... Which episode was it? Ttogafer (talk) 19:07, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * Haven't a clue. Terrible with numbers. Look for the episode when he's talking to the Toadkey.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 19:10, December 30, 2009 (UTC)


 * I saw that Dantman has a heavy word in agreements such as this one. If he sees this, I am curios as to what his opinion is on the matter and after that I won't be pressing this anymore. I put 'smth', thinking that it is clear what it means, mainly because I am lazy sometimes in writing a full word:)) and I do not know what could make people angry about it. And although yeah it is a "mature polite discussion" let's not forget that it is a discussion on anime etc, we're not talking world peace or anything. We should be chilled and relaxed, not burn all our neurons for it etc. The wiki is for the Naruto community world-wide. We should be chilled and relaxed while trying to find agreements etc [I am guessing that the 'etc' I so often use is also bothersome], work out compromises in order to make it the best source of Naruto info (it already is, but in order to keep it such as it is:P) I for one still think that the anime pic of Madara should be kept in the article (I again say that it was the first pic ever of young Madara both in the manga and anime) and returning to the compromise offered earlier... we could keep both pictures (it's not that Madara's article is filled with pictures). So as I said, I await for Dantman's opinion and do as you wish if that old pic is so important just because it shows his full body and chained Kyuubi (remember though that the pic should be just to show him how he was at the time of Konoha's founding - not to show insight on him). - MadaraU (talk) 20:49, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * You should know that Dantman isn't the boss here. He has a lot of respect, because he is the top-ranking editor and the founder of the this wiki, but his word is not law. Consensus rules here.
 * The old image also shows Madara as he appeared in the new image. It doesn't matter that the new image (or its manga equivalent) appeared first. They basically show the same Madara.
 * Both images would really be overdoing things and if it does go beyond fair use, it would actually be illegal.
 * Last, but not least: using (rather uncommon) abbreviations like smth is not so much a sign of laziness, as it is of disrespect. You write, not for yourself, but for the person reading it. Using abbreviations like smth shows that you don't really care about whether or not the readers can understand it. The same goes for etc., although less so since that is a highly common abbreviation.
 * --ShounenSuki (talk 21:27, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

It is because he is the top-ranking editor and founder of this wiki that I want to hear his opinion [seeing as he clearly has the greatest experience or else he would not have had the respect he has]. I did not say that he is boss... you drew that conclusion:P - MadaraU (talk) 21:32, December 30, 2009 (UTC)
 * "top-ranking", "editor"? *snicker* ;) We got rid of "Kage" and "Jonin"... you know, I can't remember the last time I made an actual content edit here, heh. Founding a wiki is fun, you collect some content from various places, put it together, point other people to the wiki, stop editing the content, then watch as the wiki grows to the point where you can't even keep up with the changes being made to the wiki I don't look at anything in the RC other than non-user talkpages, and forum pages anymore), and everyone still looks at you as if the majority of the content on the wiki was yours. ;) You know, I adopted the Narutopedia at the same time as the Animepedia and InuYasha Wiki because they were semi-popular, I had some knowledge of them, and they had no community. InuYasha never picked up, and Animepedia failed and ended up being replaced by Animanga. I also tried picking up the MAR Wiki. And I need to get back to the O-Parts Hunter Wiki.
 * Oh, on ShounenSuki's #3, Fair use is another fun thing. ;) Copyright infringement technically IS /illegal/, using copyrighted material on your site is /illegal/, posting copyrighted material on your blog in a blog posting about that content is /illegal/... It's just not "illegal" till the owner of that copyrighted material decides they don't like what you are doing and calls you out on it. Fair use doesn't make anything legal, it's just a defense used in court to stop you from being persecuted for it, and what use is "fair" depends completely on what the court decides (which can vary).
 * As for the discussion, this reminds me of Talk:Sakura Haruno/Archive 1 which... Oi, wait, where'd that third image go...
 * Didn't the anime episode have a better image of Madara than the "new image"? Actually, looking at episode 140 the image and caption seam off to me. Looking at the anime Madara wasn't wearing that armor when leaving the village, it didn't show up till after he left. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Dec 31, 2009 @ 00:57 (UTC)
 * One could argue that fair use isn't actually copyright infringement... Any way, even without taking the fair use problem into account, having both images is over the top and would only clutter up the page, which is already quite filled with images.
 * Also, to come back at the new image showing the eternal Mangekyō Sharingan... Either it doesn't, or if it does, it shouldn't. The equivalent image in the manga has Madara with the normal Sharingan. --ShounenSuki (talk 20:59, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

Space-time manipulation
Space-time manipulation, or in this case Space-time Ninjutsu, allows the user Teleportation. Teleportation is the ability to warp from one point to another without occupying the space between. Space-time manipulation also includes the ability of dimensional transportation. Dimensional transportation allows the user to warp to another dimension.

I've started this new section to note that this is another title that could be substituted for Madara's Teleporting Technique because this basically is the ability that Madara can use.

It's also said in the manga by Kakashi that Madara uses a Space-time jutsu.

Your point? --68.189.10.169 (talk) 22:25, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

We already have a redirect from "Madara's Space-Time Ninjutsu" to his teleportation page.--68.189.10.169 (talk) 22:41, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

I know, I was just stating that it could've been Madara's Space-time Ninjutsu.--Sky0 (talk) 22:42, January 1, 2010 (UTC)

Fire element
Naruto Shippuden 136 - The Light & Dark of the Mangekyo Sharingan shows a picture of Madara using a fire jutsu.

I agree: Fire and Wind releases should be added. Neji uchiha (talk) 06:24, January 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * When did he use wind? Jacce | Talk 06:28, January 25, 2010 (UTC)

His Sharingan symbol changed after battle with Hashirama?
Is it just me, a plot hole on part of Kishimoto, or has Madara's right Sharingan in the "Madara takes his mask off slightly" image reverted to a "normal Sharigan"'s tomoe, rather than his Eternal Mangekyou Sharigan's unique ones? Could that be related to the extensive injuries that he recieved from his battle with the First Hokage? MarqFJA (talk) 15:31, January 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * People don't keep the Mangekyō active at all times. The "eternal" in its name is due to the fact that one's sight isn't lost over time. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:46, January 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * So they can be switched back to normal Sharingan mode? Never knew that before; the Mangekyou Sharingan article's description of the process seemed to imply that it permanently replaces the ordinary Sharingan. (I already knew why "eternal" is added to the name, BTW.) MarqFJA (talk) 16:31, January 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, they can be reverted back. The Eternal Mangekyō replaces the regular Mangekyō, they can still be switched on and off. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:39, January 31, 2010 (UTC)