Talk:Dance of the Shikigami/Archive 1

Kanji issue
I would like to raise to point that the kanji is wrong for mai (as in Dance) it should be 舞 not 術（jutsu) --うちわファン (talk) 08:20, September 3, 2009 (UTC)

Rank?
How do we know what rank it is? Its seems that it should be higher. --Hasofcd (talk) 00:17, December 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * It was taken from the Third Databook, page 264. Why should it be higher, if I may ask? B-rank is jōnin-level. --ShounenSuki (talk 00:40, December 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well if the databook says it.But since you asked, I was just considering the ridiculous amount of versatility she has with her jutsu with suffocation, butterflies, paper planes, weapons, and the amount of paper she can make, coupled with paper restoration if she's hurt in this mode. Add the Akatsuki factor and I just thought it should be higher than jonin level, but oh well. --Hasofcd (talk) 02:43, December 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * Ranks aren't just about power and versatility, but about difficulty as well. Sure, the technique is incredibly versatile. but maybe it isn't that difficult to use and it certainly isn't all that powerful. --ShounenSuki (talk 08:05, December 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * Please, this isn't a forum, let's not get into opinions of Konan's power. The rank is the rank, let's move on. --Hasofcd (talk) 18:42, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

dance of the shikigami
i would rank it s-rank for her being a s-rank ninja


 * Regardless, the databook evidently lists it as a B-rank jutsu. We don't get to decide what Kishimoto decrees here, our duty is to just compile it together into an encyclopedia. Teamrocketspy621 (talk) 02:25, December 10, 2009 (UTC)

sorry about that your right

Chapter 509
Is the huge paper parting of seas she made in 509 this or should we make a separate article for it? I can't help to think this will be given its entry when the next databook comes out. Or if we're lucky, in the next chapter. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:07, September 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd question Kishimoto's sanity if he didn't name it next chapter. ~SnapperTo 00:13, September 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * On a related note, should her "paper tree/hideout" be counted as a separate technique as well? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:57, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think so, the whole tree thing just seemed like a simple a mimicry of the environment (but then again there is the whole color aspect to be disclosed). Perhaps an image of it in her article instead? --Cerez365 (talk) 01:25, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * How 'bout Paper Treehouse and Drowning in Paperwork no Jutsu ;) Arrancar79 (talk) 01:31, September 10, 2010 (UTC)

Weakness
Just to clarify, she is limited to the amount of paper she can make from her body (Paper Ocean, no idea what that means, perhaps we just say 'generally?'), and cannot exceed it? So after a point she will not be able use this technique if enough is destroyed? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 17:33, September 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * No idea. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:38, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * I got the idea from how weak she seems with so little a body, and from how she needs a certain amount of paper to do stuff (like Kimimaro's comments about Gaara when he thought Gaara was limited to the amount of sand he had in his gourd. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 04:54, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * I always thought of it as being based on the Transformation Technique, which also explained Paper Ocean for me. --GoDai (talk) 07:19, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Transforming pieces of yourself at a time, fascinating. Off hand I cannot refute that, and I guess a part of the body would still answer the brain. This would mean that she would indeed be limited to the amount of paper she had in an even more drastic way too. If you mean the Paper Ocean was transformed from afar, there is "potential" precedent with Hanzō's Exploding Tag Technique (we do not exactly know if he made the tags or if it was a preset trap. Did I get what you mean right? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 08:15, September 11, 2010 (UTC)

3rd databook
this is related to a discussion on the paper angel of god tech page, but what exactly does it say about this tech in the 3rd databook and what pic is used? Is it the pic where she was turning into butterflies or was it another pic like the one where she was the half-angel with paper wings? I'm just curious if it gave a good description of this tech, or it's being based on the pic alone. I know it's listed down in the reference section, but that reference that I saw isn't used in the actual text, so that leads me to believe there wasn't much of a description 98.71.122.74 (talk) 21:49, April 26, 2011 (UTC)miah

More about this Jutsu from chapter 509
1. '''The core of the paper mass-- her torso and head that never completely turns into paper except for travelling --are vulnerable. '''

Rationale: Madara patiently waited for the intact-portion of her body (torso and head) to close in before he attempted to absorb her, which in turn required madara to become tangible. And during the absorption process, the intact portion of her body was at the center of the spiral. Thereby, that part of her was the main target. Finally, after Madara tried and failed to absorb her, he pointed out that she would have died if he had continued the attack. A claim that's justified by Konan's earlier announcement to take madara with her to the next world. If she was completely invincible in that form, then that whole scene will be meaningless. A part of her has to be vulnerable in that form for the dialogues in that scene to make sense. And everything so far points to the parts of her body that remained fully/partially intact.

2. The papers are expendable and not actually part of her body, and how much she can make depends entirely on her chakra reserve.

Rationale: The "person/messenger of god jutsu" showed the limit of papers she can make, which is a lot. Don't mistake it with the 600 billion explosive tags. Before the attack, all her body was in paper form except for her upper torso and head. During the attack, almost all the paper was consumed in the inferno. After the attack, she was back to good old flesh and blood. And also she could barely keep up any substantial mass of papers due to the chakra drain of that attack.

SUMMARY: Konan's papers(including converted body parts) are expendable, and how much she can expend depends on her chakra reserve. The jutsu allows her to temporarily make parts of her body invincible to attacks by converting them to paper. However, her torso and head when not completely dispersed into paper remain vulnerable.--
 * And here ladies and gentlemen lies the secret behind ending world hunger! What was the point of this bud?--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 11:27, August 11, 2011 (UTC)

Read it to get the point. And you should avoid using troll statements. This is not a forumNewestman (talk) 21:04, August 11, 2011 (UTC)

I did a thorough search to find any if it was explicitly shown that Konan can convert her entire body into paper and yes she can.

In the first instance this was shown (chapter 371), when she announced jiraiya's presence to deva path, it was clear whether that was her clone or not. Especially since pein ordered her to kill jiriayi, if she can, before he arrives, while simultaneously telling the "konan" that brought the message to lead him to Jiraiya. That implied that the konan that brought the message was most likely a paper clone. So this instance is not valid enough to make any conclusions.

The next instance (chapter 430) was after pein used the gaint shinra tensei on konoha. out of anxiety, konan declared that she will be coming in person to look after Nagato; no more paper clones. Then her entire body dispersed into paper. This was it. The evidence I was looking for.--Newestman (talk) 21:02, August 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'll just use this section to answer your prior post as well. The paper's volume and expendability can be seen throughout her use of the technique and as for her upper half never turning into paper completely: it has so you can't say it hasn't after providing evidence against your own statement and it'd be kinda dumb to draw a character fighting while looking like a bunch of paper planes. Please also remember to sign your posts with four ~ --Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 11:33, August 11, 2011 (UTC)

I don't get you. You just agreed above that they are expendable. And as for not turning her entire body into paper, that was not the message i intended. sorry on my part. The intended message is that the part of her that doesn't completely turn into paper is vulnerable to attacks, whereas her body parts that is completely dispersed into paper are invincible to attack since her papers are expendable. of course, how much she can expend is limited by her chakra as we saw after she used Kami no Shisha no Jutsu. And I also pointed out that she can turn all her body into paper, which I believe is important enough to be noted. Prove me wrong if anything i just stated here is not supported by the manga--Newestman (talk) 21:00, August 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * You do realise though, that the point of this technique is to turn her whole body into countless sheets of paper yes? Even when part of her body is there, it's all paper. Saying that it's vulnerable when she's never been attacked while using her Dance of the Shikigami technique and received any damage or anyone fighting her has never going directly after that part of her body saying "that's her weak point" is nothing but speculation.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 22:21, August 11, 2011 (UTC)

Read the preceding talk topic, #1. It answers whether it's speculation or not. Studying her fight with madara frame by frame would help too.Newestman (talk) 22:37, August 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * The technique is stated to turn her whole body and even her clothing into paper, you must have noticed the layers of paper underneath her when she keeps the "form" of her upper half? It doesn't mean that it isn't paper, it just means that she retains the form of that part of her body in paper form. As for Madara waiting to absorb the "intact" portion of her body what would've been the point of absorbing any other part when it's still the part with the brain? It's still her torso which would've rendered her unable to fight one she was transported into his pocket dimension. While I think I understand what you mean, I think you're wording it wrongly and as such it comes off sounding like her upper half doesn't turn into paper.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 22:56, August 11, 2011 (UTC)

I guess you're right about me wording it wrongly. It wasn't verbally stated what part of her is vulnerable in that form. But at least, it was undeniably established that "some part" of her is vulnerable to an attack in that form. But all the images suggest that it has to be the part of her that she retains "intact". But then again, she's capable of converting all of her body into paper, although specifically for traveling. I believe a better wording would be: "parts of her body that she retains intact remains vulnerable." I don't know. You could come up with a better wording.Newestman (talk) 23:16, August 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes but that's because it's still just paper no matter how you look at it no one said she was invulnerable. Also none of her body remains "in tact" when she uses her Dance of the Shikigami technique her whole body turns into paper, she keeps the form of her body because she wants to.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 23:21, August 11, 2011 (UTC)

Ok then. She's vulnerable in that form, but we just don't know with certainty the specifics of her vulnerability. But what do you think? I mean we know these facts:

1. her papers are expendable, and the volume she can produce depends on her chakra reserve.

2. She can make her entire body into paper. Adding this fact to #1, she should be completely invincible in this form.

3. But she is still vulnerable to an attack in this form.

All the specifies I've tried to come up with, that will incorporate the above facts, simply fail or sound too speculative. So what do you think? Would leaving the issue silent be the best solution for now? Or is stating that she is still vulnerable even though her papers are expendable be a better solution?Newestman (talk) 23:50, August 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * You're the one claiming this "invulnerability" then disproving it in the same breath. To me, Konan is not invulnerable to attacks since fire and explosions have been shown to harm her to some extent and it's never been said through any official medium that she was. What I think you're interpreting as "invulnerability" is her ability to use her limbs or body parts and such as paper and being able to reform them.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 00:29, August 12, 2011 (UTC)

'''To anyone reading this talk discussion: this issue has been resolved (see my talkpage "dance of shikigami" for details), and the conclusion is that there is no concrete evidence to support that any part of her body is vulnerable when she uses this technique. However, all evidence so far shows that her papers are expendable and only limited by chakra reserves. The one evidence that was initially thought to portray her vulnerability, was based on two points which themselves were assumptions.  1) Madara must have had an unlimited knowledge of Konan's ability and weaknesses to have tried to absorb her. However there is nothing to truly support this.  2) Konan's torso, which she retains intact when using this technique, has to be her weakness since Madara targeted it. This point depends on #1 for it's rationale, and therefore is invalid as well.

'''But at least this digging wasn't a complete failure as one good point was unraveled. The expandability of her papers.''' --Newestman (talk) 23:10, August 13, 2011 (UTC)

Derieved Techniques
umm in the video games, there are some paper techniques that are shown in the manga and anime but are only named in the games. one of which i was trying to add under the name paper stream (becuase that was the name of a previously deleted page) as it was named in two diferent games. it was used in shippuden episode 129 when Konan fought Jiraiya, she used her dance of the shikigami to get the angel wings and shot paper arrows from them. i would treat it like we do Sasori's puppet technique: prosethetic arm needles and prepared puppet: eight waves of needles. since it was a previously deleted page that redirected to shikigami no mai, how do i remake the page?98.26.246.147 (talk) 15:47, August 28, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan
 * Can you say which game the technique was named in? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:15, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

yeah, naruto shippuden ultimate ninja heroes 3 along with naruto shippuden ultimate ninja impact. though in one of the games its an awakening only technique.98.26.246.147 (talk) 00:22, August 29, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan