Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-34277398-20190315034807/@comment-28691302-20190421042906

Partially transformed Bee doesn't have the same strength and durability as a fully transformed Gyuki. Minato with just his Kunai or Rasengan's isn't really doing much to any powerhouse in the series outside of Sage Mode. That's not what he was known for anyways. He was known for his overwhelming speed, skill, and intelligence. When he was tasked with fighting a big enemy, he had an equally large summon to assist him. During the war when reanimated, he played a more supporting role than direct combat outside of when he made the Kurama avatar, even with his KCM amp.

But this is getting off topic from the original point. The point I was originally making was...Gyuki/Fully Transformed B > Raikage A >=< Base-V2 Bee > Jonin Minato > Sage Jiraya, as Raikage A fought a stronger and faster version of Minato than Jonin Minato and was his rival. Shippuden B scales to A, all 3 completely Blitz Sage Jiraya badly, and A and B are stronger and more durable than Sage Jiraya by alot....

Raikage's fastest punch from 16+ years ago doesn't = his fastest punch at present times. Whether it be 16+ years ago or during the 4th war, the only people to dodge him when moving at his fastest speeds were Minato and Naruto. Fastest Speed/Fastest Punch not being a set number. We can clearly see that Ay was in V1 when he fought Minato. He didn't even have V2 then as his top speed was still in V1. We know for a fact that V2 is faster than V1, no debate or headcanon there. What i do say as headcanon is that Ay developed V2 specifically to counteract and fight evenly against Minato, as Ay(3) did not have a V2 mode as he likely never had the need to develop it or go any faster as he never fought Minato, and thus never fought anyone faster than himself. Now with the headcanon out of the way, again, if Ay(4) was able to almost tag Minato 16+ years ago in V1, imagine what he would be able to do in the 4th war with V2 and his overall level being higher than he was as a Jonin (Kage level jonin, but 16+ years less development). If Minato was really able to completely blitz Ay like you say, then Ay wouldn't be considered the only one to rival the Yellow Flash in their multiple following clashes after that first encounter, and be the one person who's known to have reactions on par with Konoha's yellow flash.

You really have to think. Ay figured out how to counter Minato in their first encounter after seeing the FTG once. If Ay was indeed the Raikage when they met the next times on the battlefield, we know that he forbade B from leaving the village, meaning Minato didn't have B to exploit as a weakness for Ay anymore. Minato's reaction speed is fast enough to allow him to dodge Ay, but Ay's reaction speed is comparable enough to keep up with and not get blitzed killed, as we know Minato almost always goes for the kill in character even against fodder, so why would he not try to kill someone who he considered a Kage level threat? And the last thing you have to think about is how Minato would be able to harm A through the lighting armor. Surely not in one shot, easy GG. Which is why Minato and Ay's battles were something Minato looked forward to in the future after their first clash, and why Ay was so fond of Minato in retrospect during the 4th war.

While it is headcanon to determine what happened in those battles, there are facts and logical assumptions we can come to. (1) Ay was able to figure out how Minato's FTG worked upon seeing it in action once, mid battle, and came up with a counter to it that he didn't get to try due to Minato needing to retreat and targeting B as a means of letting himself and his allies escape rather than prolonging a fight with Ay. This means that in their following fights, A is no longer going to get caught off guard like he did in the first place, nor will he have B to exploit. He also has countermeasures. (2) During that encounter, Ay was able to follow Minato's movements even as he was teleporting, only getting caught off guard once, and even then it wasn't a fatal mistake. It would be a huge reach to say that Minato's Kunai slash would slash through Ay's lighting armor. He has no knowledge of its defensive applications as far as we know, so it only makes sense he wouldn't try anything different. So Ay is not slower than Minato reaction wise to the point that he can't fight back and his abilities also counter Minato's inability to do big damage. (3) It's a known fact that Minato in character usually goes for a speedblitz, teleport, one shot kill GG strategy. He even tried it against Ay in their first encounter. So if there's a threat to Konoha such as Kumo and their leader the Raikage, or someone who he believes is going to be the next Raikage, why would he all of a sudden not fight with killing intent? So the Ay in this scenario, Raikage Ay, has fought a stronger and more experienced version of Minato, Hokage Minato....multiple times, when said Minato was trying to kill him, and he came out of all of those fights without dying. You can say that Minato and Ay barely showed any improvement or that they didn't get much stronger, but the fact that Ay has V2 shows that he got stronger, and the fact that even then Minato was expanding his arsenal and learning more jutsu, meaning more Ay has to deal with, should be accounted for something. And like i said before, it would be odd for 2 village leaders who were in/just in war to stay stagnant and not get any stronger. We know Minato kept training to develop new jutsu at least, and Ay showed immense improvements on his signature jutsu. (4) Just because you dodge 1 punch doesn't mean you can dodge every attack that follows. A good example is Ay vs Naruto. He was battering Naruto around, though at the end Naruto did manage to dodge his fastest punch. That doesn't mean that Ay wasn't just slapping around a Naruto who was trying to actively speedblitz him.