Talk:Obito Uchiha

''' For previous discussions about this character, see also Talk:Tobi and its archives. '''

Recommendation: Delay Edits
We might be already raring to merge the Tobi and Obito articles, but considering the mountain of backstory necessary to bridge the time-skip between Obito's "death" and, at the earliest, Minato's confrontation with Tobi, it will be a hell of an editing. We'd rather wait for the next chapter next week and see how the narrative bridges those intervening years. We don't even have any plausible information (yet) as to how a young Obito that died was transformed into an adult body identified to be Tobi and masquerading as Madara Uchiha. So there. Magatama90 (talk) 15:38, August 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, at that point Kakashi was, what, 14, 15, 16? It's not implausible or unprecedented for Obito to have pulled that off as a teenager. Look at what Itachi did when he was just 13. Still, good suggestion.  I agree we should wait until the next chapter before merging anything.  Also, it shouldn't be too much of a hassle to merge them: we just put the information on Obito's page on Tobi's, rename it, and when we're satisfied with the results lock it to prevent people from splitting it.  207.216.193.120 (talk) 15:51, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

Kakashi was 13 when he became Jonin. Naruto Part I takes place when he's 26-27, according to his page. 26-13=13, which is how long ago Kakashi Gaiden takes place. At most, Gaiden took place nine months before Tobi attempted to steal the Kyuubi (assuming Kushina got pregnant with Naruto after the Kannabi Bridge mission and not before). That means that in just nine months, somehow Obito jumped from a Chuunin who couldn't hold his own against a Chuunin-ranked Might Guy to fighting on equal terms with the Fourth Hokage? As for Itachi doing similar things, remember that's Itachi, he's made of awesome. Not once has Obito been shown to be anything even close, so his sudden jump in ability just doesn't make sense. --RikuoAmero (talk) 19:12, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

Even if it made sense, it is ridiculous to merge the two sections now, because it hasn't been confirmed. Tobi looks like he's using Obito's body, but let's remember that all the Uchiha are family and therefore a lot of them look alike. Just because Kakashi said "Obito?!" while he was completely tired and one of his eyes bleeding doesn't mean it's definite. StarseerSoul (talk) 22:59, August 29, 2012 (UTC)StarseerSoul

Itachi was a prodigy, Obito was a fodder inferior to Kakashi--Elveonora (talk) 16:09, August 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Just like Naruto was a fodder inferior to Sasuke, right? Look at him now. 207.216.193.120 (talk) 16:18, August 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * This is rediculous. Kishi is trolling us, I'm sure of it! To quote a friend of mine...

"A masked guy who can control the Kyuubi with a regular sharingan.

A masked guy who has vast knowledge of the Uchiha clan, Senju clan, the Sage of the Six Paths, Madara Uchiha, Izuna Uchiha and Hashirama Senju.

A masked guy who within Kage level after 1 and half year before the Kyuubi attack.

A masked guy who could control the fourth Mizukage and turn his village into the feared "Blood Mist" village.

A masked guy who was able to fool Kisame, Itachi, Pein and Konan into thinking he's Madara because of his long hair.

A masked guy who could also fool his sensei, Minato, into thinking he'ss Madara too. (Chakra feel?!)

A masked guy who claims he's Madara when he's not, then made the whole world (including the Kages) think he is Madara and then declare fourth Shinobi World War.

A masked guy who seems to (cencored) hate the Uchiha clan and kill all the Uchiha members with Itachi's help, that drove the Uchiha clan to near extinction and drove Sasuke insane.

(Cencored) amount of plotholes, and yet HE is Obito? (Cencored) you, Kishimoto... -.-"

Derigar (talk) 16:53, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand why this is still an issue. Elve, you obviously aren't satisfied with the conclusion, and that's fine. But you haven't based any reasonable arguments to why we should delay the edit other than the fact that you don't personally believe he's Obito. That's not a good enough reason. Kishi already said this would be the month that he'd reveal Tobi's identity, and he did. Not only that, we don't know if next week will reveal anything. What if it doesn't? Are we gonna wait another week? Or a week after that? We need to act now, with the information we have. --M4ND0N (talk) 17:32, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

No, we will wait just a week, and when there's a switch to Madara/Sasuke then it's gonna be changed--Elveonora (talk) 18:03, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

No offense Elve, but you're not an admin. It's not your place to say what we'll do, and it's not mine either. So far none of the admins have spoken about it, because it's a complicated issue. But it's quite arrogant and delusional for you to just assert that we're going to do something when you have no say in the matter whatsoever. --M4ND0N (talk) 18:05, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

Weird, I saw a comment from Jacce to wait.--Elveonora (talk) 18:15, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

Link me up? --M4ND0N (talk) 18:20, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

"Since it seams to be a bit hard to say when Obito put on the mask and Madara's comments about Nagato, I think it wouldn't hurt to wait for next chapter. Hopefully it will clear up some facts. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 16:54, August 29, 2012 (UTC)" --Elveonora (talk) 18:27, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

I still want to know what the other admins think. Since it's not up to Jacce alone. --M4ND0N (talk) 18:28, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

So we'll leave it or not? ~IndxcvNovelist (talk 18:42, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

I say we merge. But it's up to the admins in the end. --M4ND0N (talk) 18:43, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

I am a random user on here, and I suggest you merge the articles for now, and when more information is explained next week, then just add it. Honestly it makes Narutopedia look unprofessional. The Administration on here needs to merge the articles.

Dude, signature. there's a button on the toolbar when you're editing the article. --M4ND0N (talk) 18:49, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. We should not be quick to make assumptions because its not confirmed yet. Just wait for the next chapter before merging the articles. Zerocartoo (talk) 18:57, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

I don't know where that delusion came from. It was confirmed. The chapter title is Obito Uchiha, he looks like Obito, he talks like Obito, he knows things only Obito would know, and Kishi said his identity would be revealed this month. It's confirmed. --M4ND0N (talk) 19:03, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

Right now, we should wait till chapter 600 to see what the backstory is behind Obito being Tobi and how he ended up becoming that way. Until then, keep the pages separate, but put a message mentioning chapter 599 on both of them. --Senjuto 19:25, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

"Kishi already said this would be the month that he'd reveal Tobi's identity, and he did." Pics or it didn't happen. SeaTerror (talk) 20:37, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

http://naruto.viz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=117530 It's been several weeks, which is more than he claimed. --M4ND0N (talk) 20:45, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

Figured. Most of those so called "interviews" are fake. I call fake on that one too. SeaTerror (talk) 20:51, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

Really? because that interview was in a copy of jump. http://www.likenaruto.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/tobi-identity-450x600.jpg Translate the hiragana to english and it comes out the same. I also have a friend in japan who showed it to me, confirming it's authenticity. So I'm sorry to say this, but are you an idiot? Sorry for being rude, but any boy who cries fake deserves to be criticized for their insinuations. At least do your homework before calling something out as being fake. --M4ND0N (talk) 20:54, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

Aww how cute. Somebody is butthurt because I said the interview is most likely fake. SeaTerror (talk) 20:57, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

I'm actually surprised, more than anything. Because this interview has been all over the major anime news sites for weeks, and showcased on the most popular channels. Usually Saiyan Island doesn't promote something unless it's confirmed. But hey, I can see where you're coming from. All the anti-obitards can do is try to discredit facts and hope that it makes their logic more sound. But yeah, check out the pic. It's from jump, so it's not fake. You're usually pretty smart, Sea. But this whole Obito fiasco has brought the worst out of everyone against the idea of him being Obito. So a lot of people I thought were reasonable ended up denying the manga's revelation with no logical proof on why it's wrong. So you're not the first person to do it, at least. --M4ND0N (talk) 20:59, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

It's just a character not like a life changing event. God! you guys are having a titi attack my goodness. Animefreak 55 (talk) 21:00, August 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought the topic was unlocked...there still needs to be more edits done. And M4ND0N can you stop calling people who don't agree with 'Tobito' as 'anti-obitards'?--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 23:06, August 29, 2012 (UTC)--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 23:06, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

I still think that it's not accurate to merge, It's still possible that the Tobi was not just one person, anyone could've put on the mask and come across as Tobi throughout time. --Starrkimaru (talk) 03:15, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

Tobi seemingly used both Kushina's 'unique' chakra chains and Madara's (equally 'unique') Kyuubi contract, you know. Plus there's the matter of that mysterious white goo which seeped from his severed limbs. I'm gonna have to say he's a white Zetsu clone masquerading as Madara and Obito. So what if he has the eye? There's a hundred jars with Sharingan in Tobi's lab. These guys are all supposedly epic-level ninja, right? If the story remains true to its roots, practically anything could be going on here. We don't actually know anything yet. As Starrkimaru said, there could even be more than one out there. I'll be fairly disappointed if it really is 'the' Obito, as appropriate as it might feel. --Syrus Magistus (talk) 05:05, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

This isn't the place for this but it's not worth creating a new section, could whoever can edit the Obito page increase the MS sub heading size please? It's too small.--Kotoamatsukami (talk) 14:52, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

Hidden Article
Is there any particular reason why the entire article is hidden inside a table ? I don't see much point in this, why not just use a Misleading info template or something rather than hiding the whole thing... --Speysider Talk Page 21:08, August 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree. I mean the article's called Obito Uchiha. Any spoilers that existed can't be hidden by a fugly table. --M4ND0N (talk) 21:19, August 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * Because if you're brought here by searching for "Tobi", the first thing you see with a false info warning is Obito's face. Sort of defeats the purpose of warning people when they see what they're being warned about before they see the actual warning. The same goes if you're searching for Obito and see Tobi's face.
 * And I realize a spoiler warning is against the wiki's policy. Another sysop can remove it if they'd like to. I feel this should be the rare exception, or at least it should be for a week or two. ~SnapperTo 21:20, August 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Could it at least be unlocked for long timed registered users? I want to add some things.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 21:28, August 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Me too. It needs some refinement, which I think could happen a lot quicker if more people were allowed to edit it. --M4ND0N (talk) 21:33, August 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. This also means you all can remove the spoiler warning if you are so inclined.
 * And if I may make a request: whoever wrote Tobi's background section should never be allowed to do anything. Because that was terrible. ~SnapperTo 21:39, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

Debut in the infobox also needs an update, unless it's already fixed--Elveonora (talk) 21:40, August 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * Obito debuts in the manga before Tobi, Tobi debuts in the anime before Obito, Obito debuts in a movie before Tobi, they debut in the same game, and Obito hasn't been in an OVA. I think the infobox reflects all of that. ~SnapperTo 22:07, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

But do we generally reflect that Tobi is indeed Obito or not? The former in that case is just an alias, the actual debut of Tobi would be in Part I. Kakashi Gaiden--Elveonora (talk) 22:15, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

possibly false information alert
Shouldn't we put it up just in case?--Elveonora (talk) 21:47, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

We had this argument earlier. Since he's been confirmed to be Obito, then there's no need to put any notifications like that. There aren't a whole lot of people who think otherwise, due to Kishimoto's interview being the prime evidence that this is his final identity. We'll just have to wait and see, but don't hold your breath. It's up to the admins. --M4ND0N (talk) 22:26, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

That's why I said "just in case"--Elveonora (talk) 22:27, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

Couldn't hurt, I guess. Something like "Warning, this article may be the subject of misinformation in the absence of info." Or something. I can't remember the message we used for Tobi and Madara after the split, but it was something along those lines. --M4ND0N (talk) 22:28, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

Age
It's pretty obvious Obito/Tobi isn't 13. Should we change his age to 29-30 like Kakashi? Only admins have the ability to change his infobox. Another idea is changing the picture of Obito as a child to the recent one in the manga, and moving the childhood one to the appearance section. Anyone for this? --M4ND0N (talk) 22:27, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

Since Obito and Kakashi should be around the same age, I don't see why not.--Elveonora (talk) 22:32, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. I don't think Obito's going to come out and say, "O HAY I'M 30." and the picture of him as a kid doesn't look very intimidating for the default photo used. Haha. --M4ND0N (talk) 22:34, August 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * Another admin can be responsible for this. Or, in case there are no volunteers, the infobox's protection expires in a week.
 * As a parting note: please don't let User:Fractyl indiscriminately replace large swaths of the article with pre-merge versions of sections. ~SnapperTo 22:52, August 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * The page is currently at a "sysop" level lock. It's in a stable state as far as mergers are concerned, it's just now it's being constantly revert warred over. Give it a at most a week to cool off and we can get back to normal editing.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 23:03, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

That's fair. It's going to give a lot of the community time for them to accept Tobi's identity, and it's not worth going back and fourth with edits while they're still upset over it. --M4ND0N (talk) 01:05, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

Thats why I'm not believing that Tobi = Obito. Obito was around 13, 14 when he died. It was the time when Naruto was born and Kakashi was around 14, 15 back then and Tobi appeared at the same time who looked like a grown man and sounded like one (voice). 22:46, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

Obviously...
Tobi is most likely someone else unknown just using Obito's face and body. Unless Kishi had a mental breakdown or is trolling to the extreme, he's not Obito. Tobi is someone else﻿ using Obito's face﻿ and body and possessing his memories. There are plenty of plotholes that don't make sense. There needs to be a logical explanation for everything that's happening because lets be honest, that was a very underwhelming and weak reveal. It was a mistake merging the two articles together until there would have been more information. --BlackGhost91 (talk) 23:35, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

The explanation of this chapter--Elveonora (talk) 23:45, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

We took what we confirmed and used it. Kishimoto DID say that Tobi's identity would be revealed this month. Just wait for next week. I'm sure we'll get an explanation to how Obito became evil like this. but I find it extremely unlikely that we'll get a revelation that he's someone else instead. Trust me, you're not the only one who thinks that. Plenty of people were against the Obito theory, and today's chapter caused a lot of outrage on forums and stuff. What started with, "DAMN YOU KISHIMOTO YOU SUCK AT WRITING" became "he must be trolling! Lol! right?! He's trolling! He can't be Obito!" It's a fairly normal reaction after something like this happens, after you spend 4-5 years arguing about the subject of a character's identity. Let's just wait it out and see. If he isn't Obito, then it'll be reversed. but I personally won't hold my breath. --M4ND0N (talk) 23:54, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah well I think it's the most bullshit reveal I ever seen in my life because it was so predictacble. Wtf is Kishi smoking? There has to be something bigger to this, there has to be a LOGICAL explanation to all of this. With the Legend of Korra, when they revealed who Amon was, I was actually surprised because not only was he a waterbender but a bloodbender and mostly everything seemed to make sense (except for a few plotholes) and I was mostly satisfied with it. Quite honestly, I thought Amon was some type of mutant offshoot of the Avatar but the whole undercover bender was a surprise to me. Now this...is like getting blue balls, it sucks and it's annoying. --BlackGhost91 (talk) 00:03, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

"Tobi's identity being more secret and mysterious than the Area 51" ... "turns out to be the most cliche option available, TOBIto--Elveonora (talk) 00:07, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

We're not talking about Korra right now. Clearly your words are influenced by you simply not liking the revelation. I understand, Tobi's been our main villain for years now. But when you start letting your personal opinion of the series affect things like how we're gonna run the wikia, then that's when it gets dangerous. We have to run on facts, not opinions, and definitely not speculation. Take it to the Fanon Wiki and make your own version of Tobi who turns out not to be Obito if you aren't satisfied. --M4ND0N (talk) 00:20, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

I was just making an example with Amon and yeah sorry but I'm just confused right now. Yeah I guess we wait til next week to see why "Obito" turned evil or whatever. As of now, I'm putting these "" over Obito because I'm still skeptical as if that really is Obito and not someone else who took over his body and memories. I know I'm speculating but like you said, it's just natural. --BlackGhost91 (talk) 00:28, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

Maybe there was more than one person playing the role of Tobi? Maybe the Tobi who caused the Nine Tails attack was someone else, and now the present Tobi is Obito? --Kitkat720 (talk) 02:12, August 31, 2012 (UTC)

Well, After discovering Tobi was actually Obito, I can imagine what Kakashi is going through. The guy believed his best friend died in battle and has been living with the guilt for seventeen years. Now he just finds out his best friend faked his own death, destroyed half the village with the demon fox, pretty much killed they're sensei, killed the Uchiha family with Itachi, joined a S-ranked criminal gang, convinced Sasuke that the village is evil, and planned World Domination. Talk about being punk'd. --Etweens96 (talk) 14:33, September 2, 2012 (UTC)Etweens96

Age
It says on "age" that he's 13, when he's not. At this point, Obito should be 33. Kakashi is 30 now and Obito is 3 years older than him. 76.235.7.222 (talk) 23:56, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

Where did you get that Obito is/was 3 years older than Kakashi?--Elveonora (talk) 23:59, August 29, 2012 (UTC)

My bad. I must have mis-remembered Kakashi's age during the Gaiden. I thought he was 10 at that time. Well, Obito's age still needs to be changed. He should be 30 now, then. 76.235.7.222 (talk) 00:11, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

This is the conclusion I made (and this is when I was trying to find out who Tobi is), from what the wiki has put in for the age of Kakashi when soon he became a jōnnin was that he was 13 years old. As for Obito, you said that he's 13 years old. If they are both 13 years old they should have the same age (will since Obito's birth date is Feburary and Kakashi's is September, Obito should be older.).--Droidkaju (talk) 02:36, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

Photo change
Are any admins around to change the infobox image from child Obito to his current appearance? There's something very non-intimidating about that photo. We should also change his age from 13 to 30. --M4ND0N (talk) 01:03, August 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * The infobox image is meant to represent the character as they are first seen. That's why, back when the page was Tobi, it had his original mask, that's why Naruto's image is from part 1. It keeps it relevant to people who are at any stage in the series.--210.56.91.114 (talk) 13:25, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

Voices
Why is Sōsuke listed as Obito instead of child? --OmegaRasengan (talk) 02:24, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

MANGA ERROR
In the last chapter where it's revealed that Obito is Tobi, you can see Obito supposedly proposing his desire to be Hokage. When his face is shown beside the hokage monument, you see the Fourth's face there. Wouldn't that be an error since Minato only became the Fourth Hokage after the war in which Obito supposedly died?

The page for Obito mentions this. I presume it is a simple blunder, although it did annoy me to a high degree. Maybe Obito thought Minato would become the hokage, and he would eventually surpass his teacher? That's kind of a stretch though --Evinugur (talk) 03:08, August 30, 2012 (UTC)evinugur

Yes, this issue has been pointed out and mentioned in the chapter article. -- The Goblin  03:10, August 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * (Maybe)When you look at a thing many times, for many years, it gets fixed in your mind. 03:12, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

No error; all of this is in Kakashi's head; and he remembers that Obito wanted to be Hokage just like Minato.

Page flow
This "new" obito/tobi page does not flow as well as "tobi's" page did. All information regarding tobi was sound; abilities, background, etc. With the turn of events from 599 out in the open this page should have just copyed and pasted obito's information into the appropriate areas. As for the info box the image should be the 599 image, as it reflects BOTH the identities of obito and the tobi persona. in the apperance section use obito's current info box picture for his past apperance, and tobi's 4th world war pic for the current image. Tobi's abilities should be restored (intelligence, nin/tai jutsu, etc.). Age should be the same as Kakashi's.

And for goodness sake either we use obito through-out the whole page or have it mentioned somewhere that all the following information will br regarded as tobi's.--Trogdor247 (talk) 03:14, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

the flow is too broken down, yeah. we should make it smoother, not separating Tobi/Obito as two different characters. If the articles were merged, then should do it like that, otherwise, the way it is, it would be better to keep the articles separated--Holyn (talk) 15:46, August 31, 2012 (UTC)

Kamui?
Hate to open a can of worms but should Obito be added as a Kamui user now? There was debate over Tobi but if this is Obito would his claims of having it be more valid? Arrancar79 (talk) 04:05, August 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yeah, merge already. --Holyn (talk) 15:35, August 31, 2012 (UTC)

Merging Tobi with Obito article is premature
It's reckless to merge/redirect Tobi onto the Obito article this early, as those who are familiar with Naruto plots can attest, that the story comes with a lot of twists and turns. Though Tobi has acquired Obito's right eye, it doesn't mean that the mysterious Tobi is really Obito. Basing it on a single page of Manga Chapter 599 is jumping too far ahead of the story. The author, Masashi Kishimoto, will have lots of explaining to do stitching logic into the timeline, like when shortly after the Third Shinobi World War, if Obito were alive, he would have had the same teenage years as Kakashi Hatake, Kurenai, and Might Guy as seen on Shippuuden Episode 248 and on this teenage pic at the time Tobi and Nine-Tails attack Konoha, and not as a full grown adult depicted by Tobi with all his exceptional abilities battling Minato, the 4th Hokage. - 75.37.75.127 (talk) 04:35, August 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * Itachi had Hokage level abilities at the age of 13. He was just barely a chunin at around 11. So it is no far fetched for an Uchiha to get that strong within a year, especially since he awakened his Mangekyo plus he had 2 tomoe from the start. 173.66.119.89 (talk) 04:24, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

There's been more than enough confirmation that Tobi's identity would be revealed this month, as stated in an interview with Kishi himself. Chapter titled "Obito Uchiha" and his face is seen at the end. Case closed. --M4ND0N (talk) 06:30, August 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * Would you mind linking me to that interview? I'm very interested in the contents. Derigar (talk) 19:40, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

Sure. It was on the back of one of the newer Shonen Jump issues. http://www.narutobase.net/forums/showthread.php?t=220645&highlight=kishimoto+interview Now, he doesn't exactly say it would be revealed this month. But he said it would be in the "next few weeks". Since there's several weeks in a month, it's pretty obvious any longer than 3-4 would be more than he described. So we have to treat this as official. --M4ND0N (talk) 23:14, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry but if that Obito looking guy (Tobi) turns out to be a Zetsu clone of Obito, then I'm not cleaning up this mess. I thought people were agreeing with me to wait a few more days to understand the character properly instead of rushing into things...Yumeyo-yuki (talk) 21:20, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

As unlikely as that seems, that's still not the right way to do things. There's no guarantee anything will be explained next week, so it's part of the standards of the wiki to use recent information. --M4ND0N (talk) 23:18, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

Correct Me if I'm Wrong
In the manga chapter 599... Obito is shown standing in front of the Hokage Monument. The monument had Minato's face carved into it, which makes no sense because Minato became Hokage after the Third War, which Obito died in. Obito wasn't alive to see Minato as Hokage.
 * See the section, "MANGA ERRORS" on this page. 08:14, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

New Eye?
Just Bringing up a point here. How does Tobi use izanagi with the sharingan that he gave to Kakashi, did he get a new one? That't it--Katana Ashigaru (talk) 10:44, August 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Tobi's Laboratory.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 10:45, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

A clarification
In the first trivia Obito's first cameo is in chapter 16 (first page) not in 122. Thanks

Good eye. There's a few things on the Obito page that need to be updated, so hopefully they all get updated soon :]76.235.7.222 (talk) 18:39, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

I just got one question, when did he learn how to perform surgery? I mean, he performed an eye transplant on Sasuke, so is he some kind of back alley discount surgeon? Gross!--Etweens96 (talk) 23:06, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Nature Transformations!!!
Now that he has at least been mnmasked I think sould edit the ninjtsu heading to include Tobis elemental natures, AS IS PROCEDURE FOR ALL OTHER ARTICLES. We alson no that he cn use the reat fireall technique (s obito) so I thin think tht should e taken cre of rite aw as well. WOuld anone be willin to edit that.

Obito and Nagato
Obito previously claimed that he gave Nagato his Rinnengan, but since Tobi is confirmed to be Obito, he would not have even been alive at the time Nagato first used his dojutsu. Apparently, Obito lied.
 * ^^ Agree, but we have to wait for confirmations. ~IndxcvNovelist (talk 20:15, August 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Nah, when the rocks came down, he traveled to the past that is why the next time he was seen he is older and so well trained, the series has done time travel before... I'm sure Izanagi could enable time travel, and the last words as obito were "I wish I had more time with everyone" — S im A nt 20:30, August 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Orrr, the stuff he said was "Madara stuff". There's always that.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 23:24, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

I have to agree with Cerez on this one. Remember, Madara didn't die at the fight with the First. He died at some point afterwards. The time frame is unknown, so it could have been months if not years, before he passed. I think we just need to wait until more light is shed on the situation. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 06:43, September 1, 2012 (UTC)

Tobi = Obito
I am thinking of changing the part 2 summary from Tobi to Obito... well, would that be appropriate? Or it's too early? ~IndxcvNovelist (talk 20:23, August 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * No, Narutopedia:Manual of Style. — S im A nt 20:38, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

Is merging really the best way to present his story?
I mean, obviously we know that Tobi is Obito now, but I think it would've been useful to keep a separate article under the Tobi name for that identity, since it was unknown for so long and since it represents a deliberate attempt for him to become someone else. (In other words, Tobi could be the name of an article that begins "Tobi was an identity used by Obito Uchiha from..." etc, etc.)  There's enough unique things that can be said about that identity (and it's important enough overall) that I think it would be more readable to keep it on its own page. --RuriRuriRuri (talk) 21:03, August 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * It has been resolved already. Many people agreed on merging the articles. About that Tobi thing, as you can see it's mentioned in this article — explained well. I guess Tobi article is really hard — at first we split it and now it's merging *off topic* haha. Mentioning Tobi on other article is unnecessary at the same time confusing readers. It's better if we'll merge it like that. ~IndxcvNovelist (talk 21:09, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

Since for right now you're assuming he's alive, shouldn't you change the age? He isn't presently 13...

then how can u guys explain when TObi fought Minato? (NanaAoi (talk) 01:28, August 31, 2012 (UTC))


 * This isn't a fan forum. We don't know and as such, need to await further information. At this stage, all we know is that Tobi is in fact, Obito. Derigar (talk) 03:41, August 31, 2012 (UTC)

just a little note
1 year after Obito's "death"
 * to Kushina: "Do you have any idea how long I've waited for this moment?!"
 * "Kurama recognizes Obito" ... lulz?

I still say, it wasn't a good idea to merge the articles. As I stated above, at least PLEASE add a headline with "warning, may contain false information"--Elveonora (talk) 23:48, August 30, 2012 (UTC)

I hope the mods are ready to move all of this information BACK under Madara Uchiha.

Narutopedia's motto should be "Jumping to Conclusions! - But only if we want to." --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 01:12, August 31, 2012 (UTC)

Lol, my thoughts exactly Elveneora and Suraku.--Black Ronin8 (talk) 02:19, August 31, 2012 (UTC)

Under Tobi you mean Suraku? Tobi's article is still intact as a redirect, all it takes is one undo and Tobi's article will be back to what it was before chapter 599. All past revisions of articles are available, so all it takes is scrapping to the last one before 599 came around. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:30, August 31, 2012 (UTC)

Oh... good to hear that Omni--Elveonora (talk) 15:12, August 31, 2012 (UTC)

Well, not exactly. I meant Madara Uchiha, but it's good to know that it's a very easy process to revert all of the information back into whatever article. I still think this was a very irrational and hasty decision. Tobi himself has yet to say a word and given that Obito was not even born during Madara's lifetime (stated he died shortly after awakening the Rinnegan) since Nagato had the Rinnegan when he was just a child. This means that he couldn't have ever met Madara. Yet this man still has a vast and in depth knowledge of information before Obito's birth, and Madara is aware of Tobi's existence. It's virtually impossible for him to truly be Obito. Not to mention Tobi's emotions toward Izuna.

I fail to understand why it's so hard for people to have patience and wait for the next chapter, which will hopefully have a thorough explanation and more than 3 words the entire chapter. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 19:51, August 31, 2012 (UTC)

His age...
He is 7 months and 5 days older than Kakashi, who became a Jounin at 13, and it says Obito "died" at 13, so that means as Tobi, he is 29 in the beginning of part 2 and 30 currently.. So add his age to his stats someone.. Also we saw Itachi was tall as a 13 year old, powerful and mature looking, yet when he was 10 he was not so big and less mature looking, so being Obito is 7 months and 5 days older than Kakashi and Kakashi was 14 years and 25 days old by the Kyuubi Attack/Naruto's birthday which means Obito would have been 14 years and 8 months which is just about 15 and you saw how tall and strong Itachi and Sasuke were even at 15, it is not too far fetched to say it is Obito, I mean we saw how Uchiha are drawn, and how the power increases they get are, and how much they can change in under a year, examples are Sasuke, Itachi. If it somehow still turns out not Obito then the author is just retarded. Sasuke was drawn as being almost as Tall as Itachi at their fight and he was shown to be almost as powerful, against Orochimaru too, although afterwards it was explained away both times.

Unlocking the Mangekyō gives a lot of changes and powerful techniques, plus he has senju dna, so stop writing things off people. Study the how the Uchiha are depicted in this manga and do the math with Naruto and Kakashi and Obito's birthdays and the Kyuubi attack and you will see it is Obito, the long hair masked man was Madara himself, Madara controlled Yagura, and Madara was the one who "gave" Nagato the Rinnegan and he was the one who "spurred Yahiko to create Akatsuki" there were TWO masked men, Obito and Madara. Also Gai and Obito became Chunin at the same year and Gai is the same age as Kakashi, plus they all entered the academy the same year, so in age order it is Gai, then Obito, then Kakashi, then Rin.173.66.119.89 (talk) 01:40, September 2, 2012 (UTC)

If you look at the available information: Kakashi became a Chunin when he was 6 (graduated when he was 5) & Obito didn't graduate from the academy until he was 9. There is no way that Obito could have taken part in the Chunin exams before becoming a Genin, So Obito is four years older then Kakashi & Kakashi became a Jounin at nine years old (This should be reflected on Kakashi's profile). Obito is 33 in the beginning of part 2 and 34 currently. He also would have been 18 during the fox attack. When Nagato was first shown with the Rinnegan Obito would have been about six years old. The Akatsuki could have been formed during the Third ninja war after Obito "died", since there would now be a five year gap between his "death" and the fox attack. --ANewLight (talk) 10:50, August 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify things. We're not sure if it's true Tobi gave Nagato the Rinnegan. Probably it's a lie, since Obito or Tobi is a master of manipulation. ~IndxcvNovelist (talk 11:00, August 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * For now just leave the statement in the Obito section. Speculations must be left to confirmation by the author.Burra101 (talk) 23:24, September 1, 2012 (UTC)

Obito was/is the same age as Kakashi...--Elveonora (talk) 15:15, August 31, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, we should update it. --M4ND0N (talk) 16:23, August 31, 2012 (UTC)

He failed the chuunin exam and failed the academy exams, he joined the academy the same year as kakashi, and did the chuunin exams same year as kakashi, he is the same age as kakashi. He had to train and re do the exams every year until he was 11 and he passed. He is 30 years old current time like it or not "anewlight" also it was Madara who did all those other things before the day of narutos birth. 173.66.119.89 (talk) 19:00, August 31, 2012 (UTC)

That's obvious it was either Madara or Tobi lied, but it's also hard to believe that the dude against Minato was Obito, but it surely was due to his space-time technique--Elveonora (talk) 19:39, August 31, 2012 (UTC)

So... are we in agreement that we should update Obito's age or are we not? 207.216.193.120 (talk) 03:48, September 1, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, please change his age already. This is a bit silly. Obito is clearly not 13. He is 30.

Admins should change it to "29-30 (presumed dead at 13)" for clarity. Nexus32 (talk) 07:02, September 1, 2012 (UTC)

I brought this up days ago, and I've noticed many things on this page changing... except his age. I don't know why the admins are ignoring us :/ 76.235.7.222 (talk) 08:22, September 1, 2012 (UTC)

Aren't you guys simply assuming once again that everybody enters the Academy at the same age? If I remember correctly, Naruto was supposed to have been at the Academy before the "Konoha 11". I don't think every team is comprised of people the same age, especially during those war times, it just happens that the current generation we're following are all around the same ages. At least that's what I think.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 09:12, September 1, 2012 (UTC)

In chapter 35 Kakashi said that he became a Chunin when he was six years younger then Naruto was (12) at that time. Which would make him six years old when he became a Chunin in chapter 599. Both Obito & Rin graduated from the Ninja academy when they were 9 (This is confirmed in the databooks). If they were the same age as Kakashi then how did they take part in the Chunin exams before graduating? Kakashi (5 years old), Rin (9 years old) & Obito (9 years old) all graduated from the academy at the same time. A year later Kakashi (6) passed the Chunin exams, while Obito(10) & Rin (10) failed. One year later Obito (11) & Rin (11) finally became Chunin. During the Kakashi Gaiden Kakashi(9) became a Jounin & Obito (13) "died". All of this information is proven with the manga (Chapters 35 & 599) & the databooks. If you can find information in the manga or databooks that disagrees with this then please provide proof. Obito's age is 33-34.--ANewLight (talk) 10:11, September 1, 2012 (UTC)

I never disagreed with Obito's age, I disagreed with the notion that people put on teams are always the same age. However, ages come from the databook, so however accurate your calculations may be, they won't exactly be added to his article.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 10:18, September 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * But Cerez, Obito is not 13. Can we just omit his age altogether until we get a hard number. Nexus32 (talk) 22:38, September 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * Or make a current age as ~30. We don't know his exact age so an estimate is better than an exact number. Personally I prefer that we have two ages one for his presumed death and other is his current age (which should be ??? until we get an actual number.Burra101 (talk) 23:27, September 1, 2012 (UTC)

I did some research and so far ANewLight is wrong, Obito is older than Kakashi but not a even a year older. Also you need to prove that Itachi was actually 4 years old during the war and that it was actually the 3rd ninja war he was traumatized in, I need references and for someone to correctly translate the references, that way we can use Itachi, Gai, Naruto, Kakashi and Obito's birthdates + advancement ages if possible to correctly identify when the battle at Kannabi Bridge occurred, don't forget Kakashi was 14 years and 25 days old when Naruto was born. Add in the fact Rin, Gai, and Obito became Chunin the same year and the fact Gai and Kakashi are both 30 in Databook 3 and what do you get ANewLight? Gai is born April 1st and is 30 in Databook 3, he graduated to chunin at 11, Kakashi is born September 15th, and is 30 in databook 3, He became Genin at 5 and Chunin at 6. Obito and Rin Graduated to Chunin the same year as Gai and at the age of 11 and Obito is born February 10th, Rin is born November 15th. Do the Math and you will see the truth. Obito was 13 and so was Kakashi at the battle of Kannabi Bridge. 173.66.119.89 (talk) 06:08, September 2, 2012 (UTC)

You didn't take graduation years (the age that they became Genin) into account Kakashi graduated from the academy at 5 and Obito & Rin didn't graduate until they were 9. Kakashi became a Chunin a year after he became a Genin, unless Obito & Rin entered the Chunin exams before becoming Genin they are older then Kakashi & Gai.--ANewLight (talk) 08:05, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

Read my comment above yours again. As shown in the movie where Naruto goes in the past, Minato and Kakashi were sensei and student long before Minato took on Obito and Rin as students too. I think Kakashi being in the academy opening and chunin exams should be retconned in the volume release, and so should some of the other characters and then it would fix the problem so far. A problem that persists is the fact Gai was 11 at his advancement age to chunin just like Obito and Rin and look at their ninja i.d. numbers 010252 for Gai and 010886 for Obito, that means he came became a genin after Gai and Rin's was 010885 and Kakashi's was 009720. Do the math and tell me what you get, we know for a fact visually there are some errors in the chapter like some people shouldn't be in some of those flashbacks. 173.66.119.89 (talk) 08:34, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

Movies are not canon. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:05, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Jutsus
Where all Jutsus, such as Fireball and Wack-a-Mole? --MaskedManMadara (talk) 17:07, September 1, 2012 (UTC)

sigh... see the front page.--Elveonora (talk) 17:32, September 1, 2012 (UTC)

Control your tongue. Last warning. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:01, September 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * ^--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 22:08, September 1, 2012 (UTC)

Frankenstein?
In the event that it turns out Obito was killed at Kannabi Bridge and was perhaps used as a genetic source for Tobi perhaps even what was left of his body was used, would the pages remain merged? I understand I'm jumping the gun and this question is full of speculation but I guess all I'm asking is, is there a plan in the event any further information we learn is a little less cut and dry as yes it's Obito? And is it just me or do the Zetsu look an awful lot like Obito? Arrancar79 (talk) 16:31, September 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * If the wiki ever reaches that bridge we'll cross it then. And no, Obito looks nothing like the Zetsu. A more reasonable explanation is that his crushed limbs were simply replaced. I understand that it's disheartening for Obito to be Tobi, but people need to stop clutching at straws.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 16:33, September 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * You're probably right about clutching at straws lol, I guess the last chapter really got my imagination working overtime. Arrancar79 (talk) 16:39, September 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * A lot of people don't want what we saw to be cut and dry true. It can't be helped.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 16:48, September 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * How did he summon Kyuubi? Why do his severed limbs leak white fluid? How did he use Kushina's restraining chains on the bijuu? He could easily just be a White Zetsu or something. The Obito explanation for Tobi has been a pet favorite since before Madara. It could well be that the stated explanation by Kishimoto will be "Yes, that's really truly Obito", but it would be a waste of a perfectly good plot. Glad I won't have to separate those articles one way or another.--Syrus Magistus (talk) 18:18, September 2, 2012 (UTC)

It is incredibly obvious that the masked man with long hair is the real Madara Uchiha no matter how you look at it which means he must have died sometime right after the Uchiha massacre since Itachi went to him for help and training. I think Madara trained Obito Uchiha and a little over a year later sent Obito to fight the 4th and take the Kyuubi, all in a skill test and to further his goals. He trained Obito, gave him another Sharingan from what I think is actually Madara's Lab and not Obito's, they shared the masked man persona, and then right before Madara finally died he gave instructions for the plans they had including the beasts and Nagato, then he died. Obito wanted the Juubi for himself and didn't want Madara revived which is why he was shocked when Madara was Edo Tensei'ed. Madara, Zetsu, and Obito were in this together. 173.66.119.89 (talk) 03:56, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

I think this last chapter made it perfectly clear that Obito is who Tobi really is (as much as I hate it), and even if it turns out that he's not the real Obito then we'll fix it. Other than that, it's all speculation. However I would like to state some facts,
 * Firstly, Kishimoto-sensei said in his latest interview that Tobi (Obito) was working with Madara.
 * Secondly, it's pretty clear that Madara lived on after his battle with Hashirama seeing as to how he stated that he got Rinnegan and Wood Release after his battle with Hashirama. However we don't know how long, though he had to be alive around the time of Obito's suppossed "death" at the Kannabi Bridge, otherwise when would they have met? I highly doubt Obito turned into this mess till after that Kannabi Bridge ordeal.98.26.246.93 (talk) 04:59, September 3, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan

This is not a forum. You guys need to go elsewhere with this discussion.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 10:18, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

Editing
Due to the page having a seal and preventing people from editing it, then may i ask who is editing it ? Jmootam1999 (talk) 13:13, September 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * Admins of the wiki. 13:19, September 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * ^ no, it is only blocking new users and ips from editing. — S im A nt 17:37, September 3, 2012 (UTC)

Unnecessary Trouble
I'm talking about the merging of the Obito and Tobi pages while it wasn't even proven yet, that's the reason there were flashbacks it's so that we won't go past the moment where he's revealed to have the face of Obito, we still don't know whether it's 1/Obito, 2/ Someone else in Obito's body or 3/not Obito, it could be original Zetsu or original Nagato. It's like changing information on Itachi when he appeared before Danzō in the last panel, except that this is much worse, this is supposed to be a wikia yet I feel like I'm reading false information. 196.217.172.213 (talk) 11:44, September 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * We have no attorneys to prove our case, no orbits to sent us into outer space, and our fingers, are bejewelled with diamonds and gold, but that ain't gonna' help us now...--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 12:26, September 4, 2012 (UTC)

Chapter's out, he's Obito
Can we end this pointless debate now? He knows Kakashi let Rin die, and Madara called him Obito. I say we finalize the merging, and if anyone seriously disputes it now, they're grasping at straws. --M4ND0N (talk) 08:00, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. It is also now a fact Madara did not die until at the earliest the end of the 3rd shinobi world war. 173.66.119.89 (talk) 08:46, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Age/Appearance
Anyone think its odd that he is around the same age as Kakashi, yet before when it has shown close ups like this he looks like an old man... makes one wonder just how long Kishi has planned on having Obito be Tobi, I mean back when he did the Nine Tails attack on the village, that was like a year after his supposed death wasn't it? He was like 11? Yet he looked all grown up. And going from some little kid that loved his friends and wasn't strong enough to someone who could fight Minato that quickly? 82.4.97.209 (talk) 08:07, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

A long time, I'm guessing. Notice when he fights Konan and his masks breaks. You can see the left side of his face, but not the right side. The right side is shadowed because it's undamaged by the rock. --M4ND0N (talk) 08:22, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

He was 13 when he "died" and due to calculating Naruto and Kakashi's bdays and the fact Kakashi was 13 just like Obito, that means Obito was 14 and 8 months when he fought Minato, basically 15. We saw how strong Itachi and Sasuke were at 15, plus the now obvious fact he was working with and trained by Madara it all makes sense now. 173.66.119.89 (talk) 08:44, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah. What caught my eye is the ingenious ways Obito is using his space/time techniques, like combining them with fire, storing weapons, etc. I think that should be added as well, noting his improvements. --M4ND0N (talk) 08:48, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Replacing ONLY the crushed side wrongly stated
Replacing only the right arms mentioned in the ability section, its not true. During his battle with Minato his left hand fell off also oozed like his other limb and while not completly detached in the manga in the anime it fell off before the Contract seal. Seeing as he has both hands nowdays that ability section bit is wrong info --FlameSkarr (talk) 08:50, September 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * I would say it looks more like his left arm is actually bleeding in the manga, this could easily be an anime screw-up if you ask me --Cosmikaze (talk) 09:51, September 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * Not true. That arm fell off and looked like putty while doing so.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 11:08, September 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * My bad, i never actually noticed that. --Cosmikaze (talk) 11:50, September 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * No problem. Remember that there was a second cave in that covered him entirely. Although I can't find what FlameSkarr is referring to in Obito's article.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 11:53, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

"Throughout the series, Tobi has lost several limbs.[30][31] The loss does not seem to cause him any pain however, and a white substance is shown flowing from the wounds along with blood. He is able to recreate his limbs through an as-yet-unexplained method.[32] It is to be noted that the replaced limbs were all right-sided ones, the same side that was crushed by the giant boulder in the past." This part is what i was referencing --FlameSkarr (talk) 11:58, September 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * Fixed.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 12:02, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Age... Again...
You put down Part I to differentiate Obito's age from his current one as of now, but the problem is, this will confuse people. People associate "Part I" with Team 7 in its start, not Minato's team. Honestly, I don't think we should even put down that he was 13 in the past; Obito at 13 was only ever present in flashbacks, and Kakashi doesn't have a "Part I" age (not the Part I you're using, which can, again, be confusing to others).

But if the admins for some reason need a reason to differentiate his age through time periods, might I suggest replacing "Part I" with "Gaiden"?
 * It all depends on how the infobox works. I think it's possible. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:18, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

I'd say debut: 13, Part II. 29-30--Elveonora (talk) 23:40, September 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm good with infoboxes but this wiki's Infoboxes are confusing. I think he should have three "Age" parameters to help those just tuning in or has not gotten up to Chapter 599 or 600 yet. I think we should do it like this, Gaiden (for Obito and, if we want to/need to Kakashi, Part I and Part 2. And having "debut" could be a bit confusing as well. Why? People will look at Chapter 72 as his "official" debut since he appears in a single frame flashback even though he looks no where near his Gaiden appearance. But I will go with whatever the admins choose to go with. Edit: That goes along with the "Height" and "Weight" as well.--KiumaruHamachi (talk) 13:04, September 6, 2012 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi

Restored picture
I have restored the picture of the unmasked Obito during the war because some kind of idiot uploaded a pretty bad coloring before. --ShenLong Kazama (talk) 18:49, September 5, 2012 (UTC)

Sword?
Why is the sword no longer listed? Didn't Obito carry one when he met with Itachi? Patsoumas1995 (talk) 20:01, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, he did. But a lot of people still think that the long haired Tobi wasn't really Obito. --M4ND0N (talk) 06:28, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Reference 67
It directs to Jiraya and Naruto, in the Tale of a Gutsy Ninja. Wrong chapter and page? Derigar (talk) 20:44, September 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * Probably. I think he says that around the time Sasuke captures Bee's Octopus Leg Clone. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:30, September 7, 2012 (UTC)

Trivia
I had like to add to the Trivia que following information:


 * Coincidentally, Obito and Uchiha Izuna share the same birthday, bloodtype and weight. Obito height is 175cm, while Izuna is 174.8cm.

Since there could be some symbolism behind it, I think it's worth to be added.

Fox616 (talk) 01:42, September 8, 2012 (UTC)

While they do share these traits, adding it in the off chance there might be symbolism is just speculation, and would only invite for edits of speculative nature. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:02, September 8, 2012 (UTC)