Talk:Nature Transformation

Crystal Release's Natures
Crystal Release isn't on there and since we have speculated on some of these why can't we just put it under Earth and Wind? after all thats the only possible combination left. (Evilpuppy (talk) 06:22, April 13, 2013 (UTC))

Its being left out due to the fact that it is a anime only nature. And it makes no since anyway for it to be Earth + Wind.Umishiru (talk) 08:37, April 13, 2013 (UTC)

Advanced natures are not just mixing two Natures together
Example Blaze, which comes from a fire based KKG jutsu, but doesn't have any mixed natures together. But is an unatural one, so it is an Advanced nature.

This should be at least mentioned, that it's either mixed natures or an unique/unnatural one not a basic nature. Biozim98 (talk) 19:11, May 10, 2013 (UTC)

Episode 63 + Hiruzen info
"In the anime during episode 63, Yamato told Naruto that no known shinobi has ever mastered all five basic elements."

This is incorrect, I just checked the episode and Yamato ALSO said "at least, none that I know of".

That detail is important as with the way the wiki is now it makes it look like Yamato stated an established fact, whereas the actual translation suggests that Yamato made that comment based on his knowledge (which isn't necessarily knowledge on the *entire* shinobi world).

Also Yamato never mentioned anything about MASTERING all five elements, he only mentioned being able to USE all five elements. So at this juncture we can't say that we know that Hiruzen mastered all the elements.

Remember Kakashi wasn't shocked that Kakuzu could use all five elements, he was shocked to the standard Kakuzu could use them. THAT is mastery and couple that with Jiraiya's comment (Jiraiya who knows Hiruzen) and it tells us that no-one has mastered all the elements except someone with the Rinnegan.

I believe the entry is blurring the line between possessing all the elements and mastering them all.

--Jingo12 (talk) 19:21, January 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Several things. Firstly, in the manga Kakuzu only used 4 elements; he only used Water Release in the anime. The reason one would be shocked to even see a shinobi know so many elemental techniques is because of how long it takes most shinobi to learn how to use an element, much less master it. And remember, mastery comes with practice, so Jiraiya's comment is best interpreted (given Ibiki's later comment) that it allows its possessor to learn all sorts of ninjutsu ith more ease than otherwise. Skitts (talk) 21:14, January 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not 100% sure, but I think that Yamato part in episode 63 might have been anime-only, sort of to lay a foundation for that kunoichi in Part 2's first filler arc. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 04:37, January 26, 2014 (UTC)

Yin Release, Yang Release, Yin-Yang Release
The question stands, are they even nature transformations? The canon has made it clear on multiple occasions that there are only 5 basic nature transformations, them being: Fire, Wind, Lightning, Earth, Water. We've been also told about advanced natures, which are 2 or more chakra natures merged together and that they require Kekkei Genkai which allows the user to do so.

Since Yin, Yang, Yin-Yang aren't basic natures and nor are they advanced natures, because apparently, all ninjutsu that isn't elemental uses either, that means everyone can use them (with the possible exception of yin-yang release), so doesn't that mean that they aren't nature transformations at all? Originally YYR was hinted to be "the sixth nature" but that got retconned, so should we even list them in the infoboxes and mention in this page? It is suggested that even techniques such as Clone Technique, Transformation Technique and so on are Yin or Yang, so they seem to be pretty much a general skill--Elveonora (talk) 09:52, April 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * You should know the correct way to handle unexplained things by now. • Seelentau 愛議 09:56, April 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Did Yamato/Kakashi actually say that they are nature transformations? Or does that come from a databook?--Elveonora (talk) 15:24, April 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yamato called them natures, yes. • Seelentau 愛議 15:50, April 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Be basically went through the five basic natures, then brought up Yin and Yang only to hold off on explaining them because they were less important at the time.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:03, April 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * You are right, I re-read the chapter and Kakashi said that they are nature transformations. Damn...--Elveonora (talk) 17:34, April 30, 2014 (UTC)

Yamato said that all non elemental ninjutsu are Yin Yang Release he did not say they are either Yin or Yang he said they are an application of both Yin and Yang combined into one nature transformation. such as shadow clone. they use both Yin and Yang to be created. its just that no one can master Yin Yang Release to the level of the sage of six paths or one of his his two sons transmigrants Actionmanrandell (talk) 07:49, August 12, 2014 (UTC)actionmanrandellActionmanrandell (talk) 07:49, August 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Action, what you say means that every non-elemental jutsu is Yin–Yang Release. But Yamato never said what the non-elemental jutsu are; he just told Kakashi that it was too early to explain that stuff about Yin and Yang Release to Naruto.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg JOA20 08:23, August 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * He did not. • Seelentau 愛 議 08:26, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

About Enton in the image
Should it be there? Or at least, as a presumed combination? Enton isn't a combination of 2 elements like the other advanced types, since it is Amaterasu (stated to be an advanced type of Katon) + Shape Manipulation. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 10:58, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Na, you're wrong. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:00, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Explain? Patsoumas1995 (talk) 11:33, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Enton is a release, right? So it releases something. What is released in Enton techniques? Black flames. So Enton is a release that releases black flames. Amaterasu is described as a Katon technique, so part of Enton is made of Katon. The Shape Manipulation is what Kagutsuchi does. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:35, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * But those black flames are Amaterasu, not something greater. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 11:57, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, Amaterasu is a technique which uses the black flames created by Enton. At the point Amaterasu was called Katon, the term Enton didn't even exist. But now it does. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:59, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * In layman's terms, Seel says that Amaterasu is Blaze Release technique.--Elveonora (talk) 12:16, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * So Itachi has Enton? Rage gtx (talk) 12:33, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

It would seem so, but all of this is nothing but logical conclusions and we won't know until the magical databook 4 that may never come tells us.--Elveonora (talk) 12:35, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

I won't argue about Amaterasu, I'm arguing about Enton being the combination of 2 elements. So far, nothing suggests that. The other elements are like this because one hand has the 1st element, and the other hand has the 2nd. However, Enton (or Enton: Kagutsuchi & its variations, the only Enton techniques so far) doesn't work like that, since it's a dojutsu with no hand seals involved. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 13:04, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * An advanced nature is advanced because it's a merger of two basic natures. The name Enton suggests it's a nature. But since Enton isn't any of the basic ones, it has to be an advanced nature, thus a merge of two basic natures.--Elveonora (talk) 13:27, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Is it stated that an advanced nature must have in every case 2 or 3 elements combined? Patsoumas1995 (talk) 15:05, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Lack of hand seals are inconsequential. None of the hand seals, Fūinjutsu, and jutsu shiki that we usually see associated with Jikūkan Ninjutsu are involved with Kamui's execution either. Amaterasu's black flames were said to be the apex of Katon, but this "Enton" clearly differs from the common variety of Katon in terms of appearance, and composition; possessing heat and longevity that defies the drawbacks normally associated with Katon... Even without applying Shape Transformation to them. :P [insert long-winded rant about how Shape Transformation does not make a Nature Release here]


 * These discrepancies make it clear that Enton is an Advanced Nature Release. We simply don't know what chakra natures are involved in its creation—besides Katon, of course. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 15:16, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

To answer the initial question, though: No, it should not be there. It's speculation. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:06, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * So who's gonna remove it from there? WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contribs) 17:10, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * That image should have been removed long long ago, it's pure speculation--Elveonora (talk) 19:52, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * I can only provide this. Need's someone to remove the German terms, though. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:54, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

Something
Before anyone jumps at me with: "this is just another attempt of yours to deprive Naruto of his feats you hater" then no, this is a serious question.

So we added Yin and Yang Releases to Sasuke and Naruto's infoboxes respectively, because they had received Six Paths Yin Power/Six Paths Yang Power. But was it anywhere stated that Six Paths Yin Power equals Yin Release and Six Paths Yang Power does equal Yang Release? Because as you may have noticed, they lost the said tattoos and it doesn't make sense for someone to forget a nature transformation or so, therefore I don't think they should be considered as such.--Elveonora (talk) 09:31, September 10, 2014 (UTC)

The powers are inherently equal as they make up the rules of balance, however the users aren't necessarily equal. What are you getting at though?--Reliops (talk) 14:25, September 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * We list Naruto and Sasuke as users of Yang and Yin Releases because of the tattoos they had, but Six Paths Yin/Yang Power =/= Yin Release/Yang Release--Elveonora (talk) 16:03, September 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, the reverse is true. And it matters not whether or not they've mastered it. They used it, so it stays in the infoboxes. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 16:06, September 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * They were never stated to be users of Yin and Yang releases tho...--Elveonora (talk) 16:29, September 10, 2014 (UTC)

Wrong Elemental Rock-Paper-Scissor cycle
haves some thing wrong whit the advantage cycle, lets put a bit of laws of physics can logic in this, at first electricity can't beats earth because he is a bad electricity conductor also is natural that earth always beats thunder, also earth don't beats water, water can erodes earth, the others are a bit right The correct order must be: Earth->Thunder->Water->Fire->Wind->Earth... (wind blow earth) --Dragonempeorslayer (talk) 17:51, September 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Fire vs Wind: fire are spread by wind to burn a large area.
 * Wind vs Thunder: Wind is bad electric conductor.
 * Water vs fire: Logical weakness, water extinguish the fire.
 * That isn't going to change. Kishi made it that way. If you don't like it then go complain to Kishimoto about it.-- WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 18:00, September 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Your English sounds like a poor google translate attempt.--Elveonora (talk) 18:56, September 13, 2014 (UTC)

I was gonna mention his english. @elveonora, why do people that don't speak english just join the spanish narutopedia or the german one and so on? it's quite annoying. Munchvtec (talk) 19:00, September 13, 2014 (UTC)

Advanced Elements Image
I think it might be a good idea to remove the blaze icon & put a question mark for fire+lightning just like wind+earth=?...because there is enough info revealed that removes lightning out of the equation...can anyone do that, I donno how...thanx --DARK ZER06 (talk) 16:29, October 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Don't jump the gun just yet, just because it was used in conjunction with Raiton doesn't mean Raiton ain't part of it--Elve Talk Page 16:58, October 29, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not basing it on this chapter...I'm basing on the fact that itachi (& other uchihas according to tobirama) can use it & does NOT have lightning... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 17:06, October 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's just your assumption. Not shown =/= not true--Elve Talk Page 17:21, October 29, 2014 (UTC)

Like this? • Seelentau 愛 議 18:10, October 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, if you insist on it being changed, go on.--Elve Talk Page 19:19, October 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * I added a new picture, but it won't show. I hate imagemap and vector graphics. :D • Seelentau 愛 議 20:00, October 29, 2014 (UTC)

@ tau uuuhh I just meant the blaze only...the others...don't care :D but thanx for your contribution...

@ elve & what U said too is just an assumption...we have never seen or heard anything about it consisting of lightning...am I wrong elve... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 20:03, October 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Cool your jets, it's been replaced. It was simply showing placeholders--Elve Talk Page 20:06, October 29, 2014 (UTC)

I know...I just answered U with my jets cool buddy :] --DARK ZER06 (talk) 20:09, October 29, 2014 (UTC)

Infobox updates.
Why are characters left and right suddenly having new elements added to their infobox's when they were never shown or been said to have them? Is this something from the Fourth Databook, or is someone just having fun? Sai NEVER used Fire Release. —Steveo920 (Talk), 11:23 November 4, 2014
 * Databook.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 16:34, November 4, 2014 (UTC)

multiple kekkei genkai
Is it stated anywhere in the series that two chakra natures cannot make more then one advanced nature? If it wasn't then things like Lightning Release need to be removed from Explosion Release and so on. Munchvtec (talk) 08:38, April 5, 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what you're asking here exactly, but on the Explosion Release front, Lightning Release is the only one that wasn't matched up with Earth Release to form a KKG. Lava (Fire & Earth), Wood (Earth & Water), Magnet (Earth & Wind). We know Explosion is a KKG and based on the signs Deidara used it's an Earth-style, so lightning's gotta be the second one. Not something I deduced, but it's what was decided.--Mina [[Image:Uzushiogakure Symbol.svg|20px]] talk 12:15, April 5, 2016 (UTC)
 * Im saying, who's to say earth and water can't make crystal and wood? Everyone just assumes only one advanced nature can come from two basic natures being combined. Munchvtec (talk) 12:35, April 5, 2016 (UTC)
 * Because there's no canonical example or even evidence that would suggest that same basic natures can form different advanced natures. Personally, I still don't truly believe that Magnet is Wind+Earth, yes, 4th Kazekage's natures in 4th databook imply so, but the book was filled with mistake and personally I would like such a statement in the manga before I truly believe it, but oh well.--Elve Talk Page 13:54, April 5, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yet we assume based on what? That we have seen two get mixed? We have seen three and even five mixed as well. I think it's a stretch to try and base what these advanced natures are made up of based on "left over natures". If we don't we shouldn't presume; especially with something like this. Munchvtec (talk) 14:20, April 5, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, there's no example of the two natures producing two or more different KKG, so logical assumptions are the only one option left for us. And KKG with unknown natures involved already can't consist from the 3-5 natures cause the KKG term itself involves mixing just 2 natures, if there are 3, for example, then it's not a KKG anymore, it's a Kekkei Tota. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 15:42, April 5, 2016 (UTC)
 * "Fixing" supposed speculation by adding even more speculation isn't a good idea. If and when we get confirmation that two natures can produce different kekkei genkai (from a canonical source) we'll adapt to it and change the "supposed" speculation...--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 15:54, April 5, 2016 (UTC)

@Berserk: To start off, i didn't propose an idea in the opening. I asked a question. Now what I'm asking is why don't we just remove said speculation altogether? If there is proof for them (like with Magnet Release) then they remain as is. Things like Explosion Release, we really shouldn't be saying it contains Lightning Release. Could it? Yes, it very well could but as of yet we don't know. Some of these probably aren't even real advanced chakra natures. Just unique uses of pre-existing basic natures like with Blaze Release or Mud Release. Munchvtec (talk) 16:30, April 5, 2016 (UTC)
 * No, it isn't. But the example's you're providing are all but normal natures: Blaze Release is somehow different from Fire Release, but we don't know how. Mud and Crystal aren't canon. We're not assuming that two natures can't form more than one advanced nature, it just wasn't ever shown in the manga and thus, there's no reason to believe otherwise. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:55, April 5, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well I'll be damned. There's no reason to remove speculation? If you are going to assume something like, Lightning helps make Explosion. You're only thinking in one direction. If you must make assumptions then you might as well look over all variables and if not then just remove it or make a trivia note. Trivia notes don't hurt anyone. I'm not only speaking to you Seel, just anyone who opposes. Munchvtec (talk) 17:06, April 5, 2016 (UTC)
 * Wait, what exactly is your problem now? a) Us adding basic natures to Explosion/Magnet Release based on logic or b) us not stating that it could be possible to merge two natures to more than one advanced nature? Or something different? • Seelentau 愛 議 17:23, April 5, 2016 (UTC)
 * I simply asked a question at first and then i ever so slightly changed the topic. Shall i change the header or what? :p i brought up the fact that two could make more than one to show we are wrong. We really shouldn't be speculating on the natures at all. We never did in the past until this diagram thingy started getting filled out. Munchvtec (talk) 17:29, April 5, 2016 (UTC)
 * But we don't take a stand on that topic. We neither outright say it's possible to do it, nor do we outright say it's impossible. Us giving Magnet/Explosion Release their natures doesn't mean that we say it's impossible to do it. We're simply going by the observation that such a thing has never happened, not even hinted at. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:46, April 5, 2016 (UTC)

Sasuke Shinden
In the third Shinden novel a new nature transformation was introdused, Taiton (颱遁, Typhoon realese). This fact should be atleast stated in the article. Also Sasuke says, that Taiton is a combination of Wind and smth else (only Ying/Yang slots are left). Proofs can be found in translator's blog (1). --Starit (talk) 11:27, April 7, 2016 (UTC)


 * I don't know, I didn't read sasuke shinden. Perhaps, Typhoon release= wind+lightning. --Sharingan91 (talk) 11:48, April 7, 2016 (UTC)
 * Sasuke doesn't say that Typhoon Release is made up of Wind... and there's Wind+Lightning left, which would actually make sense for once. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:55, April 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * How does lightning being a part of it makes sense? Nothing about typhoons involve lightning or electricity. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:10, April 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * Isn't a typhoon a strong storm on sea? Dunno, thought that. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:12, April 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * I know Wikipedia is hardly the ultimate source on anything, but there's no mention of lightning or electricity. Storm in his case is just a word for strong wind. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:36, April 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, the energy to create the typhoon has to come from something, so I thought it would make sense. But whatever, I already asked the translator about the novels and everything a day ago, so let's see what he's to say... maybe he'll join us, would be nice. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:40, April 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * Typhoon release could be a variant of the Wind release, as Blaze and Fire release. --Sharingan91 (talk) 17:44, April 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * I think if the Typhoon Release wasn't called a KG in the novel, it shouldn't be a KG for us either. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 17:50, April 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yep, hence why I created the jutsu article only, same with the Mud Release technique. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:52, April 8, 2016 (UTC)

Uchiha Fire Release
The series has mentioned a lot of misconceptions, IE Kakashi believing Naruto's initial jinchuriki form meant the seal was on the verge of breaking, which as we now know is nowhere near the case. We also know the Fireball is the rite of passage for the Uchiha. Therefore, it's natural to have most, if not all Uchiha wield Fire Release. Of course the ones without an affinity for Fire Release, IE Sasuke will need more rigorous practice to master it. Therefore, to the public, it would seem all Uchiha have a natural affinity for Fire Release because they don't see the struggle non-fire affinity Uchiha go through to master it. So, we cannot say the Uchiha having an affinity for Fire is genetically linked. I could reword that however to make it fit more with Kakashi's statement, IE "Some have misconceptions believing nature affinity is clan related such as the Uchiha Clan's affinity for Fire Release. This is actually due to the Fireball being their rite of passage, as such, most Uchiha would wield Fire Release, even though the ones without Fire Release would need more rigorous practice mastering Fire Release.Cloudtheavenger (talk) 21:42, May 28, 2016 (UTC) EDIT: I updated it. A bit wordy, but this should be more acceptable than just deleting it and more accurate than the previous statement. ^_^Cloudtheavenger (talk) 21:52, May 28, 2016 (UTC)
 * There's still no actual evidence it's a misconception, so it can hardly be compared with Kakashi's seal statement. Sasuke's Lighning affinity is anime only at least. If the Uchiha choose a Fire Release jutsu as a right of passage, it's pretty obvious that it was the most common affinity in their clan, otherwise too many people would've struggled with mastering it, which would lead to the choice of another technique(s) on it's place. Of cource, it doesn't mean there were no exceptions, yet still the most common. Thus it was natural for most of the clansmen, so the statement about it can't be labeled completely false. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 21:57, May 28, 2016 (UTC)
 * With respect, don't you know anything about traditions? It's often established in the early days and after a population becomes exponential, they still follow the tradition because traditions are hard to break. It could have been established by Indra and they simply kept that tradition alive. If the Fireball is a rite of passage, that means the Uchiha clan in general, would practice it over and over again until they perfected it. It is a pretty basic technique. Also, it has been established with practice you can master the other four elements. So you do not know for sure if there weren't others that struggled with it. Once you mastered the fireball, it serves as a good foundation for other fire derived techniques via shape transformation. My edit covers all bases (at least I believe so) because it says some believe the Uchiha clan naturally have an affinity for fire, but there are cases (IE Sasuke) that struggled with it as Fire is not his affinity.

Regarding Sasuke, he used Lightning more often than Fire following his acquiring the Chidori so it was heavily hinted in the manga his nature is lightning.Cloudtheavenger (talk) 01:24, May 29, 2016 (UTC)
 * Sasuke having lightning as his affinity doesn't negate the Uchiha in general tend to have fire. Plain and simple. Same could be said about the five great hidden villages and their affinities. You're suggesting the Uchiha are believed to tend to Fire Release because of the tradition, when it's just as likely, if not more, that the tradition began because they tend to Fire Release. Specific groups tend to have specific shared traits among themselves. Even chakra signatures themselves follow that trait. Tobirama could tell Karin had Uzumaki ancestry because of her chakra. Mū could tell people from different countries were fighting on the same side from their chakra. It's the same thing as the case from the Uchiha, on a larger scale. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:47, May 29, 2016 (UTC)

New image
Noticed this image was uploaded for this article. Was going to delete it after a while, but I then noticed it added things like the Blaze, Typhoon, and Crystal Releases to the Combined nature transformation relationships diagram. I can configure each icon with links to their respective articles like the current image is now. Just gonna throw this out there, but yay or nay on this image being used in this article? 04:45, August 12, 2016 (UTC)
 * Crystal Release is a only anime Kekkei genkai, I would put Steel Release u.u .--Sharingan91 (talk) 06:09, August 12, 2016 (UTC)
 * Crystal Release should definitely not be in the picture. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:46, August 12, 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with Seelentau. Steel release is in the novel. --Sharingan91 (talk) 13:56, August 12, 2016 (UTC)

Sasuke
Why isn't he on the list of those who have mastered all 5 elemental natures?--Elve Talk Page 07:15, October 15, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, that's quite simple - he obviously didn't master them "naturally", on his own, but via the Rinnegan (which is listed as kinda "artificial" mean to obtain all the 5 natures, along with Jiongu, SPS, TSBs etc). And in the article, there are listed only those shinobi who mastered the elements "naturally", i.e. via hard work, training and experience, without any secondary means, like Hiruzen. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 10:08, October 15, 2016 (UTC)
 * But Madara is there and he had both Rinnegan and Six Paths Senjutsu, there's no evidence he mastered them naturally, just like there is no evidence Sasuke didn't master them naturally.--Elve Talk Page 10:49, October 15, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yep, that's right, which means that we should rather delete Madara's name from the list instead of adding Sasuke there, unless there's some info in databooks which states that Madara learned the 5 natures before getting Rinnegan or SPS. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 10:56, October 15, 2016 (UTC)
 * Madara got his Rinnegan shortly before he died. Do you really think he trained to gain all five natures at that age? • Seelentau 愛 議 12:45, October 15, 2016 (UTC)
 * There is still SPS and we have no idea for exactly how long he had the Rinnegan. For all we know, he indeed played with it before his death quite a bit, hence his skillful usage of Limbo, didn't look like he used it the first time in the war--Elve Talk Page 14:06, October 15, 2016 (UTC)
 * @Seelentau, Madara kinda continued to live after awakening the Rinnegan; of course, his state wasn't the best, but if he had time for those experiments with Hashi's cells and Gedo Statue "at that age", I see no reason for him not to try and master other techniques as well, including those of the Rinnegan. Also, Elveonora is right, his mastery over the 5 natures could be attributed to SPC too, when he became a TTJ. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 14:23, October 15, 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't recall the exact episode, but Nagato has only ever used one of the five natures (he may have never used them at all), but he's listed as having them all because of the Rinnegan. Sasuke has the Rinnegan, so by default, he can use all of the natures, regardless of ever being shown as having used them. --Sajuuk 14:26, October 15, 2016 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, that's not the point of the debate. We don't argue that Sasuke can use 5 natures, Elveonora just questioned why he isn't listed amongst those who mastered 5 natures on their own. Since Sasuke had "help" in that matter (thanks to the Rinnegan), he shouldn't be listed, but there's Madara in the list, who also had the Rinnegan + SPC which obviously could "help" him to master the natures, yet he's listed along with those who had no such "help" in doing so, like Hiruzen. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 14:34, October 15, 2016 (UTC)
 * For the billionth time: Having the Rinnegan does not automatically grant all five natures. It was explicitely stated that Nagato mastered them. That is not the case for Sasuke or Madara. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:01, October 15, 2016 (UTC)
 * As far as I remember, Sasuke and Madara still have all the 5 natures in their 4-th databook profiles. And nobody says it's automatical. The problem is that Rinnegan is placed amongst the means which help to master/obtain 5 natures earier than naturally. This is the reason why Sasuke isn't on the list of the shinobi who did master them naturally, without any means to shorten/cut out the mastering process. But it raises the question why Madara is on the list, since he pretty likely has some help in mastering the natures, i.e. not only via the Rinnegan, but via the SPS as well. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 16:23, October 15, 2016 (UTC)

Nagato mastered them at age 10. Databook and Manga say so. Obito, Madara, Sasuke and Naruto have them thanks to awakening their own Six Paths Chakra.. Kakashi had them all thanks to Obito. They just haven't mastered them like Nagato or Hiruzen. Nagato was supposed to be some kind of unprecedented prodigy that he could do that at 10, even with the Rinnegan right Seel? Also Nagato was 4-5 when he first used Rinnegan so at the least he was 3-4 when Madara finally transplanted his eyeballs into Nagato. QuakingStar (talk) 16:30, October 15, 2016 (UTC)
 * So we remove everyone who had something to do with the Six Paths stuff? Leaves us with Orochimaru, Tobirama and Hiruzen, I think. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:17, October 15, 2016 (UTC)
 * Waait, it's nowhere stated that Six Paths Chakra alone can give all the natures by default, while we don't even know what is "Six Paths Power" Kakashi got from Obito and what does that term exactly mean. Furthermore, Mu and Hashi were never affiliated with any of Six Paths stuff kinds, so there's no reason to delete them. It means that the only one who should be deleted is Madara (with both the Rinnegan and SPS). Ravenlot 27 (talk) 17:26, October 15, 2016 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, Mu and Hashirama are there as well. But then again, where was it stated that the SPS automatically give you all five natures? The databook doesn't, contrary to what the article says. • Seelentau 愛 議 18:05, October 15, 2016 (UTC)