Talk:Madara Uchiha

Rinnegan
Shouldn't there be a section on Madara's page about his Rinnegan usage? Even though he's only been seen using it briefly, there's one on Tobi's who has hardly used it too. Skitts (talk) 21:40, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

I don't think the Eternal Mangekyo evolves into the Rinnegan, I think it just enabled Madara to awaken the Rinnegan. Which is why he switch's between his Eternal Mangekyo and the Rinnegan between use's. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 03:57, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

Er, I didn't say that it evolved into it. I'd assume it has something to do with his obtaining Hashirama's DNA during their battle, though that assumes that Tobi is also Madara. Skitts (talk) 17:37, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

I believe that Madara "evolved" his eye, as the Uchiha Monument Stone is meant to be read by a Rinnegan, so why would it be impossible for an Uchiha to be able to read it? Also, i have a question to pose.--74.222.209.225 (talk) 21:27, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

So, does his rinnegan is able to activate susanoo? or he first use eternal mangekyou and susanoo to do the seals and then switch to rinnegan to draw the meteor thing? Holyn (talk) 02:21, October 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * Madara used his Susanoo with EMS i'm assuming it really doesn't make a difference since he has it, he can use it.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 02:31, October 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * actually if his rinnegan is capable of using sharingan powers it is a new category o rinnegan (one evolved from sharingan, supposedelly). or maybe he can use sharingan powers with one eye and rinnegan powers with the other, just like tobi, and therefore do "combos". I am curious about how tobi will use the powers of sharingan and rinnegan combined. Holyn (talk) 02:59, October 22, 2011 (UTC)


 * No, he activated Susanoo while he had his Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan active. And you're combo idea is unnecessary. He can switch between the eyes, unlike Tobi, thus he most likely just switched back to his EMS or since Susanoo was already active, he simply moved back into it. Skitts (talk) 03:06, October 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * The way I see it, when he activated Rinnegan to repel the rasen shuriken, his susanoo started to vanish.. Then he activated susanoo again, probably while still in rineegan mode (but we can`t see his eye in that moment) and performed the combo I mentioned, using susanoo (a sharingan jutsu) to make seals and what seems like Deva Path powers (either Banshō Ten'in or Shibaku tensei).Holyn (talk) 03:25, October 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * i think its an evolution they clearly state thats what you get when you progress pass the sharnigan maybe the uchiha really got the sages eyes they just had to work for the true power of it. for now we have to go with the evolution theory

To add to my point. You don't need to have the Mangekyō Sharingan activated in order to use Susanoo. Itachi in chapters 391 onwards he doesn't even have it activated while using Susanoo. As it is now the only prerequisites to use Susanoo are Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi.--Cerez365™ 18:20, October 22, 2011 (UTC)

He can probably use his EMS while using his rinnengan because it is evoled from the EMS which is why he can use the sharigan abilties while using the rinnegan, or he can use the sharigan powers while using a rinnegan because hes a Uchiha.

I think Madara and Tobi are different persons. If they're the same person, Tobi should be able to switch both eyes like Madara does. And one more thing, I personally never see Tobi activates his Mangekyou Sharingan. Luis Vermilion (talk)

Ocular Powers
You stated that Madara has amaterasu and tsukuyomi..but he didn't show any of these techniques yet,did he ? By the way you only wrote that because he has the mangekyou sharingan,but isn't that a bit wrong ? kakashi has a mangekyou as well and doesn't have any of those two techniques


 * He did however use Susanoo, and thus (as stated in the third databook) can use amaterasu and tsukuyomi. --Cosmikaze (talk) 22:27, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

You cannot use Susanoo without having mastered both Tsukoyomi and Amaterasu according to sasuke, thus he knows those techniques. Skitts (talk) 22:39, October 19, 2011 (UTC)

Ah i got it now..By the way,at one of the last pages of the last manga,Madara "summoned" that giant stone to the battlefield and susanoo appeared to help him using hand seals...does it mean that susanoo can use techniques either ? or it only did hand seals to help madara with "chakra" ?

Susanoo is just a materialization of the user's Mangekyo eyes, an extension of themselves. So their using hand seals would just be molding the user's chakra more quickly. Well, that's what I think. We should find out next week. Skitts (talk) 00:28, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

It is a little like the kyuubi chakra when naruto is in kyuubi's chakra mode...the chakra is like an extension of his body,just like susanoo is for the uchiha, right?
 * Just in function, a bit. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:09, October 22, 2011 (UTC)

The third raikage showed naruto that he could only stop his "impenetrable shield" by piercing him with his own "strongest sword"...With susanoo,it may be the exactly same thing,don't u think so ?

@above Susanoo isn't and has never been stated to be impenetrable, only Yata's Mirror that Itachi's Susanoo wields has been and thus far it is. Also, sign your posts with four tildes ~. Skitts (talk) 22:34, October 23, 2011 (UTC)

coffin
We never saw who was in the coffin, only that whoever it was shocked Tobi enough to accept the alliance. Also have Kabuto never refered to Madara as the one in the coffin, he merely refered to him as "him" and his secrect weapon. Therefor i believe that the first part is still nothing but random speculation. --Gojita (talk) 23:12, October 19, 2011 (UTC)Gojita


 * ÆWhat you believe and what the manga shows is different. The fact that he referred to the person in the coffin as his secret weapon, one that could frighten the supposed Madara, pretty much cements it as him. You offer nothing but saying that you want to be disproved. In any case, you could have simply made the sentence ambiguous but you instead removed the entire paragraph. :l Skitts (talk) 23:21, October 19, 2011 (UTC)


 * There is no image, no direct statement, no direct cementing evidence that Madara was in that specific coffin, which is why this is not what i believe but what the manga have shown of solid evidence or actually the lack thereof. We already have enough issues with his identity alone. Please don't add info that is not confirmed or even ambiguous information. We should just stick to what we have been told and seen directly in the manga, not what have been speculated across the forums in the past year or so! Beside, even if there is a label at the top about false information, it is only there due to the lack of informationr regarding his identity, not the identity about the person inside the coffin that Kabuto used to scare Tobi. NUFF SAID!!! --Gojita (talk) 23:27, October 19, 2011 (UTC)Gojita

I accounted for that in my previous statement: It wasn't something that I added or was adding, it was something that you were removing. All you had to do was remove the word 'Madara', not the entire paragraph. Skitts (talk) 23:55, October 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * And once we do that, we remove the relevance to this article and once again the entire part is removed again. --Gojita (talk) 00:08, October 20, 2011 (UTC)Gojita

The fact remains that it has been heavily implied that it is in fact Madara. No doubt has been cast on that in the manga or from anyone else I can think of on the wiki. We don't always take direct statements as being the only acceptable proof. The Second Mizukage using the Hydrification Technique, for example. No character said that he was using it, but based on various clues, we assumed it. Skitts (talk) 03:15, October 20, 2011 (UTC)
 * With the second mizukage the technique was obvious especially when his name fit the clan name of Suigetsu and Mangetsu, this IS NOT OBVIOUS who is inside the coffin, especially now that we don't know who Tobi is. --Gojita (talk) 08:45, October 20, 2011 (UTC)Gojita

1) 'when his name fit the clan name of Suigetsu and Mangetsu' We were never told his real name.

2)The technique was not so obvious to one particular user, yet nearly everyone else agreed that it was in fact the Hydrification tech.

3)I do not see how it is any less obvious that Madara is the one in the coffin. It is the opinion of this wiki that it is. Why don't you take a look at the list of summoned shinobi on the Summoning: Impure World Resurrection page. Skitts (talk) 16:37, October 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * I believe the coffin list is there because no have noticed it/bothered to change it. I know that we don't know the Mizukage's name, but the technique had the clan's name in it and we could see the finger turn into water which fits together as solid evidence proving that it was the hydrofication technique. In this cause, there is no evidence at all and thenw wikia can think all they want, but it will still be false and therefor it should not be added. --Gojita (talk) 17:56, October 20, 2011 (UTC)Gojita

I find it highly unlikely that the coffin Kabuto showed Tobi isn't Madara. No other coffin Kabuto had got such emphasis and hype as this one did. Unless there's a coffin that receives more hype that Madara before being revealed, someone that could also make Madara pass bricks, I find it less speculative to say the coffin was Madara than saying it wasn't. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:51, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

Its obvious to me that the sixth coffin was Madara, it wouldn't really make sense if it was someone else.--Deva 27 18:56, October 20, 2011 (UTC)
 * But the issue is not what is obvious or not, but rather what proof we have and don't have! --Gojita (talk) 19:24, October 20, 2011 (UTC)Gojita

If Tobi was Madara the only person it would make since to be is the first hokage who unless im mistaking im is currently sealed along with the second third and fourth in the death god. While I dont assume to know for certain who it is or who tobi is I agree Madara is the most likely one to have been in the coffin

.. Im not sure you guys remeber what a wikia is.The idea that Madara is the person in the last coffin is an ASSUMPTION,based on absolutly nothing. It's a speculation,this isn't a democracy,and we simply don't have the evidence to prove he was the person in the coffin yet.So until we get something, we cant add it.What would be the citation? No one has said he was the one(or even implied it,btw) There just isn't anything that shows it.I'm not saying your wrong,I'm saying its not stated. 66.142.141.62 (talk) 01:33, October 25, 2011 (UTC)

Also,small tidbit that i just remembered, Kabuto promised Tobi that the contents of the coffin was a secret,why would he blow that just because one of Naruto's clones is defeating the Kages? Didn't even have a monologue about it. Just something to think about. 66.142.141.62 (talk) 01:39, October 25, 2011 (UTC)

Kabtuo never said anything about keeping the coffin's content's a secret. He also likely didn't plan that he'd have to use him (due to not knowing about Naruto's subjugation of the Kyubi, hence why he was surprised that he was forced to use him. He also wanted to see if his and Oro's EMS--> Rinnegan evolution hypothesis was correct. And what do you mean "just becasue of Naruto defeating the Kages?" They were the most powerful weapons that he and Tobi had in the war (other than Madara of course). especially the Third Raikage. He didn't think that Naruto (actually a clone, but he didn't know) would take the Third out. The only coffin to have been given substantial coverage were those two. Skitts (talk) 01:43, October 25, 2011 (UTC)

There is NO reason for anyone to think that Madara was in the coffin. None at all. There is only speculation. If I remember correctly, when Kabuto summoned the coffin, Madara said "You fool! you'll doom us all!" and that was it. Nothing more. No reason to assume anyone in particular, other than it was someone very powerful. Could be Madara, he's powerful. But there are other powerful people. Could be someone new. But no evidence ever suggests that it was Madara. You can speculate all you want, but if this wiki has any dignity, the articles should be changed to make the identity of the person in the coffin unknown.


 * there's just no hope for people like you -__-...Besides, when Kabuto showed the coffin, Tobi was just in shock, and never said anything along the lines of what you said... It's pretty clear that it was Madara... the coffin was labeled as Kabuto's trump card and he kept refering  back to the coffin and the chapter that ends with Muu summoning the coffin is titled "Kabuto's Trump Card".. I just dont see how it's CLEARLY stated and yet you (and a few otheres) just want to make every little thing on this wiki complicated -___-... just stop this buffoonery >_<.... Kevin krash (talk) 06:24, October 26, 2011 (UTC)

Should people be changing the Wiki so soon?
Should people really be changing the wiki yet? I mean evidence points to the theory that Tobi is still Madara, shouldn't people wait? Cause i have seen many people claiming things as fact and hence many people will be trying to change the wiki to what they interperate the Manga to be. I think we should wait before changing anything in order to keep this page stable. --82.41.225.192 (talk) 01:33, October 20, 2011 (UTC)
 * Refer to Talk:Tobi. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:41, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

Madara's Weapons
Shouldn't we add that Madara also uses a sword since he uses one here? Joshbl56 (talk) 03:55, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

He took that from another Shinobi. Look at the ppage before then. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 03:58, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, he's right. Anytime a character is seen actually using a tool, we tend to add it. In any case, he was shown to have used a variety of swords against Hashirama in the past. I'm adding sword to his Tools list. Skitts (talk) 05:17, October 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * I am personally somewhat against adding random weapons that a character picks up from somewhere and only uses once. In my opinion, it makes the tools section somewhat useless, as it doesn't differentiate between tools that are actually characteristic of the character and random tool usage like this.
 * Also, we never saw him use swords before. All we saw was Hashirama being surrounded by a couple of swords. Nothing more, nothing less. —ShounenSuki (talk 09:41, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

ShounenSuki is right, if we decided to add every weapon somebody picked up, and or used then every character would have shuriken and kunai on the weapon list, and that is a waste of time considering its general equipment. So only add signature/personal and newly added signature/personal weapons to all characters page's. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 20:16, October 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * @ItachiWasAHero Those are the most basic of shinobi tools, which obviously don't need to be on the list, which they aren't. SS meant things like stealing a unimportant, nameless weapons, such as the sword Madara commandeered Skitts (talk) 20:34, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

You shouldn't call him SS. It has bad meaning. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:40, October 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * @ShounenSuki: After a bit of research, although Madara has never been observed wielding a sword previously, he has been shown in possession of them. Chapter 398, page 16 - He seems to carry up to four swords, although the hilts of some, mean that the number is arguable. Chapter 399, page 1 - The hilt of a katana is shown over his right shoulder. I don't know if the Tobi issue complicates this, as the depictions occur in his account, but I thought you should be made aware nonetheless. Blackstar1 (talk) 21:17, October 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well lookie there. I'd say that's enough evidence to state Madara uses swords. Although I'm starting to think we should be treating swords the same way we're treating kunai and shuriken… —ShounenSuki (talk 06:09, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

main image
I was under the impression that the main image was supposed to depict the character as they were first seen by the viewer. The current main image isn't appropriate, it should be in a background or appearance section.--210.56.88.30 (talk) 04:50, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

You're right, of course. However, there currently aren't any alternative images of Madara that are fitting for an infobox image. Skitts (talk) 05:14, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

much better now, and follows the standards for main image Holyn (talk) 02:12, October 22, 2011 (UTC)

Tools Problem
The Tobi article has a few of Madara's weapons (the Kama and Sword ) in its infobox. Skitts (talk) 05:37, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

keris
isn't the sword that is wielded by madara's susanoo a "keris"??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris

http://id.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Berkas:Semar_Kris_%28no_background%29.png&filetimestamp=20110807095949

Yeah, I noticed that as well. It appears to be. Skitts (talk) 00:30, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

amaterasu & tsukoyomi
Excuse me but this is my first post... can someone explain to me why does madara's page say's he konws amaterasu and tsukoyomi? He never showed it in the manga! And last time i read the manga just because he knows susanoo doesn't mean he knows the other two, because the manga clearly says "to awaken susanoo one must awaken the powers of both eyes" but it never says that those powers had to be amaterasu and tsukoyomi! I mean, shusui's mangakyo has completly different abilities... does that mean he could never learned susanoo if he awakened the powers of both eyes? that doesn't seem right! (User talk:Musemaniac11)


 * Edit: Refer to this section near the top of this page. Skitts (talk) 07:50, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

Madara should know all the elements; he showed us the Rinnegan. I think we should wait before rushing into assumptions - I haven't seen him use Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu yet. Only Susano'o. Guessing is the worst thing.


 * EDIT: What the user above posted, another example is Kamui. Kakashi has Mangekyo Sharingan, you sure you don't want to add Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi to his? I didn't think so. Regardless of a Susano'o appearance we still can't make assumptions. For all we know Madara might have something like Kamui or Kotoamatsukami and Susano'o as his only MS moves. Susano'o should be the only MS/EMS ability added.

I think this deserves further consideration, as the information in the third databook has already been proven to be rather out-dated on several occasions, most prominently through the introduction of new Kekkei Genkai (i.e. Explosion Release, Magnet Release). The fact that the entry only specifies Itachi as a user goes some way to show just how far back in the series that this information actually reflects. When you add this to the revelation of Kotoamatsukami, which proves that even within the Uchiha, the Mangekyō Sharingan can awaken different abilities dependent on the user, doubts definitely start to appear. So, although there remains some possibility, I don't think we should be leaping to conclusions and including two abilities we haven't seen Madara even demonstrate. Blackstar1 (talk) 16:12, October 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * This has nothing to do with the Databooks. Sasuke literally stated that Susanoo was awakened only after one masters the powers in both eyes (amatersu and tsukoyomi). It is not guessing or assuming. @Yumeyo-yuki Kakashi doesn't have them because he only has 1 Mangekyo eye and thus can't use it. Skitts (talk) 17:33, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

Firstly, if this has nothing to do with the Databooks, then why direct people to a section that includes them as the only source of evidence? Secondly, could you please provide the page and chapter number of the statement you're referring to, as I presume it's the one at the end of Chapter 464 but I'd rather be sure. However, if that is the case, I believe you are in fact making an assumption, as neither Amatersu nor Tsukoyomi are directly mentioned by Sasuke during that instance. If this is in fact your only source of evidence, then maybe ShounenSuki should be consulted to ensure that Sasuke wasn't merely implying that an individual need only awaken the abilities in both their eyes to form Susanoo, without specifying what these powers are exactly. Blackstar1 (talk) 18:51, October 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * If you actually looked at the section I linked, you'd see that my answer to the question in that section never mentioned anything about the databooks. Yes I'm speaking of Sasuke's statement in 464, but also on the Susanoo article, which states the same thing, as well as it listing Susanoo as the child technique of both Amaterasu and Tsukoyomi. Whether or not it needs to be those 2 specific techniques is unknown, but highly likely due to the fact that the two appear to be the standard abilities granted by the MS. With the lack of a good amount of users to base that off of, that's the only real conclusion to come to. Skitts (talk) 20:02, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

I was aware that your answer specifically didn't make note of the databooks, but they were the only source of evidence provided within that entire section (until your recent edit). Also, the Susanoo article makes both of those statements based on the third databook, which the first reference on that page clearly indicates. Again your making assumptions when saying the two appear to be the standard abilities, as I don't believe there is any stated evidence to support this and the recent development of Shisui's Kotoamatsukami, demonstrates that the MS grants different abilities even within the Uchiha. I'm not trying to deny the possibility of Madara possessing Amatersu and Tsukoyomi, rather I merely want to establish if we have enough evidence to state that so explicitly, without actually observing either of the techniques in question. Blackstar1 (talk) 20:18, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

As my previous post conceded, my saying that those appear to be standard is shaky evidence with so few Mangekyo wielders. However, with the 3rd Databook 'and Sasuke (a more recent statement than the databook, I might add) lends credence to those 2 being necessary for Susanoo's development. I mean, you pointed out Explosion and Magnet release to show that the 3rd databook is outdated (which it is), however, in this case there isn't any real reason for Kishi to all of a sudden change a previous statement since this is a requirement for the technique. Skitts (talk) 21:22, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

To whoever asked about natures: Rinnegan allows you to master all natures, it doesn't automatically grants you them. Nagato still had to train in order to use them. And databooks show only information "known" up to the point of the series they cover. Suppose Tobi turns out to be Kagami, for the sake of argument. It would make no sense to reveal that when the third databook came out, because that's something we only learn further down the series. Same with technique profiles. Not listing Sasuke or Madara as users just shows that either them using the techniques was not thought of back then, or Kishimoto simply decided not to spoil things. Explosion and Magnet Release would also fall on that category. Kishimoto was very specific in saying that those two techniques are required for Susanoo. If he didn't think it back then, he could simply list it as requiring for the abilities of both eyes to be awakened, not specifying which ones they are. Is it possible that might change? I think so, but until it does change, we shouldn't assume it did. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:25, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

Hehe, I pretty much ninja'd Omni's paragraph a few minutes before him. :P Skitts (talk) 21:34, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

@Skitts

Look, I only like adding things with evidence...

Madara has a lot of surprises and I'm sure he will use Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi sooner or later, until then can't we just have the shown Susano'o only?

I'm not saying he doesn't possess any at all, in fact I think he has them and more moves up his sleeve to do with his eyes, but can't we just get rid of Tsu/Ama until the chapter comes out?

-_- this whole thing is really kind of stupid... It's like me adding a justu to Gaara's page - Earth Style: Hiding like a mole technique because Gaara is arguably the best NORMAL sand user (I put Arguably and Normal-sand so this doesn't go off topic) and yet he hasn't shown it even though Deidara, Kakashi have it on their page/s.

We still can't make any guesses or conclusions, assumptions or predictions (whatever). Madara hasn't shown Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi yet so it should be removed until shown in the manga.

@ Omnibender

Oh ok sorry about that rinnegan/nature thing then, I got a slight misunderstanding. I get that now, thanks ;)


 * I'm well aware of how the databooks operate on the inclusion of information; I was merely using the example of the Kekkei Genkai to demonstrate that revisions do occur because of their nature. However, I was also trying to indicate that the information about Susanoo at that point, was composed in relation to Itachi's version, which was only one that had been displayed. Take for example the Sacred Treasures part located below, it is written in a way to imply that this is a feature common to all Susanoo, something we now know not to be true. Now, although Sasuke's later comment doesn't contradict the databook, it doesn't actually support it either, as neither Amatersu nor Tsukoyomi are directly mentioned. It is for these reasons that I find it less speculative to omitt Madara as the user of the abilities in question at this time, as this in no way would affect Amatersu or Tsukoyomi being included as the parents of Susanoo, with both Sasuke's and Itachi's versions clearly demonstrating that it is. Whilst on the other hand, we also wouldn't be attributing techniques to Madara that he has yet to display. Blackstar1 (talk) 21:59, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

"I was merely using the example of the Kekkei Genkai to demonstrate that revisions do occur because of their nature." It's very different for Kishi to change unique techniques into Kekkai Genkai, as he did with Wood Release and others, but it is a far different thing to change the requirements of a technique, which I've yet to see him do. To take what the databook says directly: "Amaterasu, denoting the 'light of the material world' and Tsukuyomi, symbolising the 'darkness of the spiritual world'—— Only they who have activated the Mangekyō Sharingan —the heavenly eyes that see without obstruction the truth of all of creation— are permitted to use these two dōjutsu. Dwelling only in they who have grasped both of these techniques is the power of a tempestuous god… that is Susanoo." Yes afterward it speaks of the essentially invincibility-granting weapons as being seemingly standard, but that was when Itachi was the only user (as you said), however, that combined with Sasuke stating the exact same thing (direct support) cements this as fact, no real need to entertain this anymore unless next week (or some future chapter) decides to ignore that passage. Skitts (talk) 09:02, October 22, 2011 (UTC)


 * Once again you're being ignorant to facts that do not favour your own cause. By your own admission, the paragraph which serves as your only source of actual evidence is compromised, as it makes sweeping generalizations about the Susanoo in spite of only being reflective of Itachi's own version due to the time that the material was written. As I have indicated previously, neither side of this discussion can make use of Sasuke's comment, as it neither directly or indirectly specifies what the two powers are but nor does it contradict the possibility that they are merely Amatersu and Tsukoyomi. This makes the remark a moot point and thus, is irrelevant in this case.


 * "no real need to entertain this anymore" - Yes, I agree with you there. Your only source of evidence is questionable at best and at worst, is so out-dated that it is entirely not reflective of current events, inclusive of others being users of Susanoo. At this point, it should be a simple decision to omit Madara until such a time that further confirmation is provided, either through statement or demonstration. Doing so, would in no way contradict any other information on the wiki, even in the most minimal of senses. It would simply remove the possibility of the wiki propagating potentially false information, meaning the worst thing we can be accused of is being overcautious in the lack of reasonable evidence, something that should be chosen any day over the former. Blackstar1 (talk) 13:59, October 22, 2011

I fail to see how I'm being 'ignorant of the facts' when I've cited official sources and conceded to things you brought up. Being somewhat outdated does not an irrelevant source make. Based on what we have available (Sasuke and Itachi both having Susanoo because they have the two aforementioned techs.) we have little reason to doubt it. Simply because Shisui has a Mangekyo technique that is apparently unique to him does not negate that it is a requirement. And I fail to see how the Sasuke comment is unusable. Sasuke only knew about Amaterasu and Tsukoyomi at the time thus it is foolish to think he could have been indicating anything else. You could take the side that he made that statement because he knows nothing of other Mangekyo users and abilities, but we've yet to see anything contradicting that. I agree that it is good for us to be cautious in cases like this, but the fact that you discount the entirety of information on the subject because part of the passage may not be entirely accurate- which Kishi hasn't always been- doesn't seem like the right thing to do. Skitts (talk) 19:39, October 22, 2011 (UTC)


 * Read my previous message again, I wasn't suggesting that you were "ignorant of the facts" but rather, that you were being very selective when it came to the use of them. Conceding on some of my points but then disregarding their impact, is what I called "ignorant", nothing more. Also, I am in no way trying to indicate that the databook entry is an irrelevant source, instead that the information it provides in this case is questionable (yes, partially given to when it was written). This also extends to the Sasuke comment, which I called "moot", meaning that it was uncertain and thus, up for debate, something which you seem to appreciate in the above message. Just like you say, "it is good for us to be cautious in cases like this", so my argument revolves around the issue of why aren't we being? The only source of evidence which asserts that Amaterasu and Tsukoyomi are necessities for Susanoo has been brought into dispute, not discounted as you believe, so doesn't it make more sense for us to respect that and omit Madara for the time being? Blackstar1 (talk) 20:15, October 22, 2011 (UTC)

Since I wasn't the one who put those techniques there, I do not know why we weren't more cautious. Skitts (talk) 20:40, October 22, 2011 (UTC)


 * This is exactly my point. Over the course of this discussion, I believe that together we have exposed all the evidence which may have led to the addition of the abilities to Madara's article and in my opinion, looking at them closely and objectively, each one of them has issues that make them questionable at best. Normally, this would dictate that we remove the thing in question until we receive further confirmation, in order to ensure that we're not spreading false information. Unfortunately, in cases such as this though, once the information has been added it becomes far more difficult than it should be to get it removed again, even if its removal would have absolutely no effect on any other article nor the information featured within them.


 * Basically, all I'm suggesting is that we take the more cautious approach and remove the abilities for the time being, which considering the evidence, I don't believe to be that unreasonable. Blackstar1 (talk) 21:07, October 22, 2011 (UTC)

Neither do I. Skitts (talk) 21:16, October 22, 2011 (UTC)


 * So, would it be alright if I now took this to Omnibender and got him to weigh in on it, as seeing how we appear to be in agreement, we should hopefully be able to reach a resolution. Blackstar1 (talk) 21:28, October 22, 2011 (UTC)

I don't see why not. Skitts (talk) 22:27, October 22, 2011 (UTC)


 * I stand by my previous opinion of keeping Madara as a user of those techniques. Nothing that came after the Third Databook invalidates the notion that Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are required to use Susanoo. The entire first paragraph that entry not once makes a specific mention to Itachi's case, but only to the technique in general. If that paragraph was only published after this chapter, this discussion wouldn't exist. The only thing that makes the databook a less than perfect source is its age, but that what it says is any less canon. There are more canon points for Madara having those abilities than there are points for him not having them. Until something invalidates the notion that those specific techniques awaken Susanoo, for example, if a different set of techniques being used, I'm against removing him as a user of those. Even if I didn't think that this was certain, I would find Madara having those two being less speculative than him not having them. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:21, October 23, 2011 (UTC)

Firstly, I'm not nor have I ever disputed the fact that the entry in the databook is a generalization of the technique; rather it is this quality which brings the information in to question, as there is no distinction made when the paragraph moves onto discussing the Sacred Treasures. It is instead written in a way to imply that this is a feature common to all Susanoo, something we now know not to be true, demonstrating that the information is reflective of the point when only Itachi's version was known. Although this comes about due to the source's age, it is this instead what reduces its canonical value as a whole.

Now, admittedly there is nothing beyond the databook which invalidates the notion that Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are required to use Susanoo, but similarly there is nothing which specifies it either, meaning the assertion is entirely reliant upon the databook entry (i.e. if the paragraph wasn't published, this discussion again wouldn't exist). With this, I don't know how you can consider stating that Madara has two techniques which he hasn't displayed, to be less speculative than not, when your only source of evidence is questionable at best and at worst, is so out-dated that it is entirely unreflective of current events.

I'm not denying the possibility of Madara possessing Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi, but rather saying that the uncertainty involved, should dictate that he is omitted until further confirmation is provided. Blackstar1 (talk) 00:59, October 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * The only way I can see this working would be removing Madara as a user in those two pages, but adding some sort of note in a trivia section, and changing the words in relevant articles to something like "Madara has displayed Susanoo, and presumably knows Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi as well". If he displays or is mentioned as a user, we move him back to the user list. The one question after that is: should he use one technique, would that be enough to add the other one as well? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:07, October 23, 2011 (UTC)

That appears to be the most reasonable compromise and would be something that I could agree to, as it at least reflects the uncertainty surrounding the issue, while still accounting for the possibility of him possessing the abilities. Now, that one question is a difficult one, it would certainly lend more credence to the databook entry but it isn't absolute either. I personally would probably hazard a yes, citing that we have a wealth of information which defines the concept of Amaterasu existing in one eye and Tsukuyomi in the other, but I could also see why some would dispute it. However, let's deal with that problem, only if we actually get to it. Blackstar1 (talk) 01:21, October 23, 2011 (UTC)

Great, now all we need is a bit more of time so those who want to give their input in this change. A couple days should do. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:29, October 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree. A note in the Trivia section (or so) will handle the issue. We do it like this in the German Narutopedia, too. It works fine :) Seelentau 愛議 01:37, October 23, 2011 (UTC)

This sounds like the best course of action to me as well. Skitts (talk) 01:38, October 23, 2011 (UTC)

So we are removing them because we think Kishi may eventually change the requirements, just because the third book is old that doesn't mean its word isn't law. Until Kishi publishes something in the manga or another databook that changes the requirements, by removing Madara as a user we are over stepping our bounds. Show me where Kishi said Madara doesn't have them. Since he has Sasono which requires both Tsuki and Ama, he has them till another reputable source saids otherwise. The age of the source shouldn't matter as long as its the latest info we have on such a subject. There was no caution needed, read the books and keep ones personal opinions out of what Kishi does when it comes to the articles as we have no bearing on the canon at all.Umishiru (talk) 05:41, October 23, 2011 (UTC)

@Umishiru If you read what was above you'd see that we're not saying that Madara does not know them (all of my posts were defending that), but that the words of the 3rd DB were made back when Itachi was the only user of Susanoo, thus may not be entirely future-proof. We're just erring on the side of caution for the time being so as not to present potentially false information. Skitts (talk) 05:56, October 23, 2011 (UTC)

Going by that logic, all information from the book should be removed and trvivatized. Just because its old doesn't mean its doesn't hold water. Till we get new contradictory info, it should stay.Umishiru (talk) 06:05, October 23, 2011 (UTC)
 * No no, you don't understand. Writing this in the Trivia is the best we can do to make everyone happy. On one side, we don't state it as a fact that Madara can use both Jutsu, but on the other side, we don't ignore what the Databook said. Seelentau 愛議 12:15, October 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * @Umishiru: Seelentau is correct, this discussion has never been about denying the possibility that Madara actually possesses the abilities but rather, attempting to represent the ambiguity in the issue than simply stating so explicitly that he has them, despite the lack of either statement or demonstration to confirm this. Also, while I didn't bring the whole databook into dispute, as that wasn't my intention, I did raise legitimate questions regarding the Susanoo entry specifically. Now in a case like this, we would normally use further evidence to allay those doubts, but as nothing else specifies the techniques as necessities, we can't. This should dictate that we err on the side of caution, in order to ensure that we're not spreading false information but for some unknown reason, people such as yourself seem unwilling to do so. Blackstar1 (talk) 12:42, October 23, 2011 (UTC)

Well then going from the suggestion Omnibender made somewhere ↑, I really don't have a problem either way. I remember it being said that you awaken Susanoo with Amaterasu and Tsukuyomis (or maybe it was just said "both eyes" but following Japanese mythology it'd fit that he does have it. There's also the whole "Eye of the Moon Plan" Tobi/Madara thing the Eternal Tsukuyomi would now make more sense. Any course of action taken would be fine with me though.--Cerez365™ 14:29, October 23, 2011 (UTC)

Rather than remove them do what we did with Tsunade's lightning nature, put a presumed tag next to it.Umishiru (talk) 07:44, October 25, 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think that presumed tags work for techniques. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 11:14, October 25, 2011 (UTC)

Meteor
Question: IS the meteor thing the Moon, or Ninjutsu/Genjutsu?
 * Answer: We don't know. No one knows. Seelentau 愛議 12:15, October 23, 2011 (UTC)
 * Just wait for the next chapter, and you'll know. akz! ANBU Symbol.svg (talk 14:19, October 23, 2011 (UTC)

It's a safe bet to say that it isn't the Moon for the simple reason that the Moon would look impossibly big from that location and if it actually hit the ground it would kill, well, pretty much everything, hence why we're referring to it as a large asteroid. It isn't nearly as big as the moon, being only miles across. Skitts (talk) 16:52, October 23, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe yes,maybe no. Wait for wednesday and we shall see the answer

Talk With Kabuto
I think the line in the article mentioning that Kabuto tells Madara that he is Tobi's assistant should be removed or reworded, based on the way Madara and Kabuto talk about '*his*', they could easily be referring to Orochimaru or Tobi, and based on Madara saying 'This is *his* doing' in reference to being revived by Edo Tensei (which would rule out Tobi since their plan was for Madara to be revived by Rinne Tensei, so it'd make no sense for them to be referring to Tobi, actually), it makes more sense that they'd be talking about Orochimaru, not to mention the fact that Kabuto is/was Orochimaru's assistant for years.
 * Orochimaru hasn't played a part in the manga for a while now. If it turns out to be someone else, we'll simply update the page. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:07, October 23, 2011 (UTC)

Six paths
If we presume Madara knows Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu (based on the third databook), shouldn't we also assume he knows all of the six paths? We already did that with Rikudo Sennin - his page says he knows the six path, but it's just because he has the Rinnegan. We should do that with both Madara and Rikudo Sennin or neither of them. 89.176.108.183 (talk) 08:06, October 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * But friend, Rikudo Sennin was explicitly stated to be able to use those technique. Tobi&/Madara will be added when they actually use it and or stated to be able to use them. One is information the other would be an assumption.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 11:57, October 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Plus, if you read a few sections above, we're considering changing how we list Madara as Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi user to a way that better shows the uncertainty of the situation. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:10, October 24, 2011 (UTC)