Talk:Haku

It's as if the gender of Haku is skillfully avoided. There aren't even indirect gender identifiers. This poses as a problem, since his gender has been ambiguous to many people. --74.194.118.203 19:02, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Then add the identifiers, make it clear while Haku looks and can pass as a girl, he is clearly a guy. They mave have been omited for the simple reason that vandals like to change "He" to "She"--TheUltimate3 22:13, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Haku's gender is a highly debated issue, since there is very strong evidence that Haku was actually a girl. Instead the article should remain neutral. If we are going to state that she is one gender or the other for referencing purposes, then we must also include a section that describes the debate on her gender in full detail so readers can weigh the facts themselves. This would take a long time to write out. I think for now Haku's gender should not be referenced until after someone writes a section regarding the debate. --Believe it! 09:07, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * High evidence my butt. They said clearly that the guy was a guy in the show and in the manga. The interesting thing is that he was designed to look like a girl. Don't believe me? Chapter 12, page 12. Haku clearly says he's a boy. And I don't think Policaly Correct, Sexy scared American TV would allow a character who clearly looks like a girl say "I'm a boy,". Fact is, Haku is a guy dispite the awkwardness of it all. No debate should be added as it clearly says "I'm a boy" and that the only people who would debate it would be the possible (but oh so likely) Yaoi fans.--TheUltimate3 11:49, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


 * You are wrong. The series did not clearly state that Haku was a boy. The Japanese version heavily implies that Haku was a girl, since Haku uses female speak words for self reference and because she shows physical attraction to Zabuza. Haku did not claim to be a boy either. You are reading a mistranslation. Haku claimed to be a man. Not a boy. Moreover, she made this claim in front of Naruto, who was her enemy. Therefore it is most likely that what she claimed to be in front of her enemy was misinformation. So in reality the fact that she claimed to be a man, which is proved to be a lie since she was not old enough to be a man even if she were a male, proves that she was a girl. This is because Haku would not have told her enemy the truth about herself. Also, the yoai fans would oppose the option that Haku was a girl, not support it. So you need to realize that there is a huge debate on this issue and that the proof indicates that Haku was a girl who merely lied about her gender, just as she did with her missing-nin status. --Believe it! 02:25, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Ok, to add another settling point so that no-one comes and says "So he's a Guy in the Manga, what if they changed his gender in the Anime". I do remember him stating his gender in the English version (I watched the earlier portions of the series in English on TV, I didn't get into the Japanese until around the Chunin Exams). And for those who would say "The English Dub isn't canon, they could have changed his gender to being a guy when he could have been a girl in the original version." I'm watching the Japanese version right now to grab the line to settle this. And just so there's no argument on "But the fansub group could have translated wrong" I'm not reading from the fansubs. I'm listening to the raw Japanese voice of the characters as the line is spoken and putting that up here and translating the important bit with the little bit of Japanese I know. I may not know enough to create a phrase on my own, but I do know enough to tell the words for boy and girl apart.
 * In Naruto Episode 12, when Haku wakes Naruto up he says (Pardon the fact that I can only go by sound, and won't get all the words right) "Okush-te-kure tano nee-chan" (Which the subs translate as "Did you wake me up?") but he uses nee-chan in his speech eluding to how at the moment Haku appears as if he is a girl and Naruto mistakes his gender. Haku does not make any reply correcting Naruto on his real gender yet. Naruto also uses nee-chan many times before Haku tells him his real gender. This is probably one of the main reasons that people commonly try to prove he is a girl when he is not. (Also, TheUltimate3, ^_^ I don't think it's the Yaoi(girl on girl) fans... The Yuri(guy on guy) fans would probably support him being a guy. But I think it's the general fans interested in the normal heterosexual relationships, because the scenes between Naruto and Haku almost make you wish that Haku was a girl (For the same reason we have NarutoXSakura and NarutoXHinata fandom). When Haku leaves Naruto he says "Ah, soreto, bokua Otoko-desuo" (Which the subs translate as "Oh, and I'm a man."). The key word here is (Of course this is all the pronunciation, I don't know the romanji spelling) "Otoko", primarily the 'oto' at the beginning. The version for female is "Ananoko" (from pronunciation again), the key point is that the male version has 'oto' before the 'ko' and the female version jas 'ano' before the 'ko'. You can clearly hear this difference and identify that he is referring to himself as a man. If you need further proof, Naruto's response (As translated by the sub, I'm not going to bother listening to the verbalization for this one) "No way! He's cuter than Sakura!". Proving in multiple ways that Haku is a male. (Firstly, the 'he' in the sentence. Secondly, the fact that Naruto is shocked that a guy is that feminine. And thirdly, Naruto referred to him as 'nee-chan' earlier on showing us that Naruto thought he was a guy, and the only way this type of statement would result in Naruto in shock would be if it was a statement that stated a gender in reverse to what Naruto though. In this case, because Naruto thought he was a girl, it would mean that he made a statement contradicting that, staying he was a guy.)
 * Case-closed. Haku is a Guy in the Anime, and TheUltimate3 has already identified to you that he is a guy in the Manga. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Dec 5, 2007 @ 07:35 (UTC)


 * The case is not closed. You just posted proof that Haku claimed to be a MAN, not a boy. You are correct that "otoko" means "man". However, this is a blatent lie on Haku's part. She was 15 years old in the series, and that is considered to be "shounen" or young boy age. Therefore if she had been telling the truth, she at least would have said that she was a "shounen" or boy, not a man. Furthermore, the fact that she told Naruto this indicates that she was lying, since Naruto was her enemy and one of Haku's nindo was about deception of the enemy. Add to this the fact that she was being hunted by tracker ninja and could not afford any true facts about her identity to leak out. The reason why she told Naruto that she was a man at the end of their conversation was because Naruto was CORRECT about Haku's gender. She had to throw him off so that he would believe something incorrect about her rather than the truth.
 * You also assume that Haku "corrected" Naruto. What she did was "incorrect" him. Haku would not want her enemy to know about her, and that is why she did not reveal anything to Naruto until after she had been utterly defeated by him and wished for death.
 * Also, going back to her claim of being a man, and the fact that this is not true since even if she had been a male she would not have been old enough to be a man; This is proof that what she said to Naruto was a lie and thus cannot be used as proof that she was male. It can be used as proof that she was female though, since it makes logical sense that she would give her enemy misinformation about her identity. You also cannot say that Haku was a boy who simply thought of "himself" as a man, because during Haku's conversation with Zabuza after she had saved him she admitted to Zabuza that she was still just a kid.
 * This leads to the next point. During that converstation Haku compliments Zabuza on his "flawless" or "Beautiful" body. This is an irrefutable indicator that Haku was a girl. Add to this the fact that Haku used female specific words to refer to herself during this time.
 * So again I say that this issue is much more complex and much more in favor of Haku being a girl than any of you think. Therefore, if we are going to refer to Haku as a gender in the article, we must include a section that lists this debate and the different points made by each side. --Believe it! 02:25, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Man, boy whatever. The point remains the same Haku is a DUDE. He clearly said it. Having a affectionate-to-borderline creepy love/respect for the man who while treating you like dirt was the ONLY PERSON WHO TREATED YOU WITH VALUE doesn't make him a her.

Likewise, the whole "Haku was screwing with 'her' enemy" is based on pure speculation. And not the warrented speculation like the Fourth being Naruto's daddy or that whole Rosewell thing. It was clearly said in Japanese as Dantman showed, and English as the Anime/Manga Dubs showed. We have PROOF that Haku is a guy, not speculation and heresay that he is a girl.

So as such there is no real debate as like I said (and was partially corrected by Dantman) the 'debate' is completely in the heads of Yaoi (The ones who want to see some gay love between Haku and Zabuza) and the Yuri (The ones who want to see Girl Love between Haku and whom ever they choose to fanfic 'her' this week) fandom.--TheUltimate3 03:09, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Excuse me, but Haku also clearly said that she was a tracker ninja. She also clearly said that she would dispose of Zabuza's body. She also clearly said that Sasuke was dead. Does her saying it make it true? No. Therefore it does not make her a boy either. Haku showed physical attraction to Zabuza because she said he had a flawless body and she blushed while saying it. That proves that she is a female because females usually are attracted to males. Duh.


 * The fact that she lied to Naruto is not based on speculation. She stated that deception of the enemy is the way of the shinobi and that is what she was trying to be. She also had reason to lie about herself since she was being hunted by the trackers. It was to protect herself and Zabuza from being tracked down. Just because you don't want to accept that possibility does not mean that it is based on speculation. Your idea is based on nothing, since the facts don't support you. Your idea goes against the facts of the series. Haku would not have told her enemy the truth about herself. Such a thing would be a contradiction of the shinobi way, and it would put her at greater risk of being tracked down. No, the proof that you posted is not proof that Haku was a male. It is merely proof that Haku claimed to be a man.


 * I do not promote yoai or yuri. I also have no stance on a heterosexual relationship between Haku and others such as Zabuza. I do not think Haku is a girl because I want to see a straight relationship, I think Haku is a girl because the facts of the series indicate it. You cannot say that there is no debate just because you want to ignore the facts. If there really is no debate, as you claim, then refute my above points. --Believe it! 06:16, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Adding to TheUltimate's comment, how often do characters lie in the manga without admitting it? If Haku is actually a girl, (s)he would correct the readers prior to death. This is a story: stories are not made to give people the wrong information that could only be given from the creator. Oh, and list your reasons as to why you think Haku is a girl. --Dubtiger 03:34, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * The characters lie without admitting it all the time. Kakashi lies about why he is always late. And every new plot twist drags on and on without the villian revealing the main plot in order to accomplish their objective. Saying that Haku would correct the readers prior to death is a baseless assumption. You can't know how Kishimoto writes his stories. Any correction by Haku would have been breaking the fourth wall. Besides, according to those who think Haku was a girl, this fact was revealed through the story in the same way most secrets are. Through storytelling and through the actions that the characters take. Yes this is a story, but you have to remember that it is originally a Japanese story in the Japanese language. There are many nuances specific to the genders that simply can not carry over to the English dub. The Japanese version makes it much more obvious that Haku was a girl because of the words she uses and because of her behavior around Zabuza. If the series had stated that Haku was a boy and then gave no indication of the opposite, then you would have a point. However, everything about Haku screams "female" except for what she claimed to be in front of her enemy. --Believe it! 06:16, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

My main proof that Haku was a girl.

1. She showed physical attraction to Zabuza, as a girl might be expected to.

2. She had breasts.

3. She looked like a girl in every way and was voice overed by females in both versions of the anime.

4. She claimed to be a man, which was a lie because she was not old enough to be considered one, and she said this to her enemy which indicates that she lied about herself because Naruto was correct in calling her "lady".

5. The instances where she uses female specific words for self reference in the Japanese version.

6. She chose to dress as a girl even though Zabuza would have wanted a boy to act masculine.

7. She is referred to as Zabuza's consort, which is a title given to wives or mistresses of nobility.

8. Her age, weight, and height all fit the class of the kunoichi, not the male shinobi.

9. She lacks physical combat skills and lost to a boy three years younger than her in terms of physical combat. She makes up for the lack of taijutsu with high powered ninjutsu, which is typical of kunoichi.

10. It is impossible for Haku to have been a boy AND have the facts of the series be consistent concerning her character and others.

That is all I can think of at the moment. The rest is supporting evidence. All can be found at the following link.

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=1204868&postcount=1

Now where is your proof that Haku was a boy? --Believe it! 06:16, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Edit Conflicted: Written before 06:16 UTC.

I read over your thread. It contains to many overreactions:
 * You say that because Haku called himself a Man instead of a Boy he was lying. And because he was lying, he was a girl. That's just overreacting. There are a dozen other series I've watched where the young characters have been referred to as Oto, or Man. Just because a character says they are a man, instead of a boy, doesn't mean they are a girl. Quite blatantly, even myself a few years ago, I would have referred to myself as a Man instead of calling myself a Boy, or kid. It's just a human trait of not wanting to be looked down upon. Mixed in with the fact that Haku's maturity as a Ninja could be considered Manhood.
 * You say that Deception is the reason that he would tell Naruto he was a man. However Deception supports him being a man more. His entire looks contradicts his real gender. He acts like a girl when he's really a guy to deceive his enemies and make them think he's weak and vulnerable.
 * Then you say that Haku wouldn't tell his real Gender to Naruto because it would be giving up information to his enemies. Well, you completely ignore the fact that Naruto has no clue that Haku is the same Ninja that he fought. He doesn't even know who Haku is, or that the boy in front of him that looks like a girl is a Ninja at all. So Haku can freely give out his gender, because it can't be associated with him as a ninja.
 * Then you say that Haku as a Guy wouldn't be drawn with a girl body as his real body. When there are people like that in real life, and it's not uncommon in anime... Fruits Basket has two men that have a strong feminine look, Happiness! features a guy which looks exactly like a girl, and acts much like it.
 * You use assumptions that because you say that "...this is a series that is geared toward younger audiences. So Haku being homosexual is very unlikely..." which is completely false. Firstly, this is a North American view. Japanese society is not as skittish about things as we are (Note how we use the terms Bathroom, Washroom, and Restroom, when nearly every other language uses "Toilet"), so there is less controversy on this topic. But here's the main thing, if Masashi Kishimoto were going to avoid the note of people who could be gay, then he wouldn't include the blatant acts, and focus around perversion. Recall the Sexy jutsu and Jirya being a pervert. Those are far worse than two characters who could be grouped together like how we have NarutoXSakura, except in a gay way. Masashi Kishimoto doesn't make anything outright about them aimed at a relation. Just the normal subtle things you would get in any of these types of series.
 * Now off the topic of that fanthread there are some things to address.
 * There are a number of generally adopted Wikipedia policies that we like to go by in an unwritten way. This is starting to enter into them.
 * NPOV - Let the facts speak for themselves - In other words, officially Haku is a Boy. It's true that Haku looks like a girl, and sometimes acts like one. These facts speak for themselves and without needing any other information will show that there is plenty of room for fan groups to surface arguing that he could be a girl. But these speak for themselves, there is no reason to put a big debate on the page that will scare readers.
 * Conflict of Interest - You are directly tied to this debate. You head a fangroup on the whole subject. In other words it is something with a deep connection to you which you have a strong bias on. Going along with these policies, you should not be editing or engaging in discussions on these things and should just avoid them and leave them to other groups. If this debate is big enough, someone outside of your group will come here and say that we could use some more information on the debate.
 * ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Dec 6, 2007 @ 07:04 (UTC)

In response to your rebuttals (in order).
 * I said that because Haku claimed to be something she was not (a man) it is proof that she lied to Naruto. That is an irrefutable fact because she was not old enough to be a man, nor did she have the mindset that she was a man as you speculate. I disproved this as well. During her converstation with Zabuza she said, "Well I'm still just a kid so..." or in English "I'm still a kid what else would you expect?". Therefore Haku did in fact think of herself as a kid, not an adult. Which means she would have called herself a "shounen" had she been a male and had been honest with Naruto.
 * This is nothing but speculation on your part. Aside from the fact that Haku wears a mask in battle and Kakashi assumed Haku was a boy at first glance, Haku claimed to be a boy to her enemy Naruto. If Haku's looks were a deception, then the claim of being a male contradicts this deception. Moreover, if her looks were the deception then she would not have told Naruto otherwise, since Naruto had believed the "deception" that Haku was a girl. So your idea is not consistent with facts of the series.
 * You are wrong. I did not forget this. It is just that this fact is irrelevant because Haku could not have know what Naruto thought or what he could have figured out. In other words, Haku did not know that Naruto had no clue. That is the fact you seem to be forgetting. Plus, Haku knew that she and Naruto would meet again. She even stated this thought out loud. This is becuase she knew that she and Zabuza still needed to kill Tazuna and that Naruto still had to protect him. She knew they would likely fight in battle, and in that case she could not have known how that battle would go. Therefore she would not risk being open about her true identity. Even if there was no risk, it is contradictory to shinobi principals be open about ones self to the enemy.
 * You references to other animes is irrelevant. You cannot use those as sources. You can only use the Naruto series as a source. Haku was drawn to be a girl in every aspect. While this is not 100% proof, as I admitted, it is strong evidence that Haku was female because she has no male features.
 * The argument about the North American is not important to the facts of the series which indicate that Haku was female. However, it is still a good argument. You just admitted that North America has more skittish views than Japan. I recognize this as well. However, if this is the case AND Haku had been a boy, then it would have made "him" homosexual as well. In that case it is likely that this would have been edited out in the English version. That was my only point with that argument. And no, talking about a pervert and censoring "Naruko" are not as bad as a same-sex pairing in a kid's anime on Cartoon Network. The FCC has a strict policy about that. Masashi Kishimoto does make strong indication that Haku loved Zabuza in a romantic way. Her compliment and blushing are proof of that. He also shows that Zabuza had feelings for Haku when Zabuza touched her cheek right before he died.
 * Now, I don't appreciate you editing the article before even giving me a chance to respond to your questions. I also don't appreciate you calling my presentation of proof a "fanthread" and dismissing it as such. The proof that I posted there is straight from the series. To disparage it is to disparage the series.
 * NPOV will not work unless we set the article up as I suggested, with the debate points being referenced and the subject being recognized as being under dispute.
 * COI does not apply to me. Need I remind you that I edited the Haku page long before you and others showed up? In my edit I did not refer to Haku as a girl or a boy. I followed the Neutrality rules of Wikipedia. COI does not refer to those who take a side, rather it refers to those who would edit Wikipedia to reflect their personal views. I have edited the article, but never to represent my views. I am also the only one here who is suggesting we keep the article neutral in compliance with Wikipedian rules. Also, how can someone outside my group come in here and state that Haku might be a girl when saying such a thing would classify said person as being in my group? No, you are the ones who are biased because you are pushing your point of view even though you have yet to post a single shred of evidence supporting your view. --Believe it! 23:08, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Final statement
So here's the final statement: That's the final statement on this topic. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Dec 6, 2007 @ 08:16 (UTC)
 * Because Haku openly states that he is a Male in the series. And because while the English version does not transfer ambiguity as much, it is still the one that readers are most familiar with and therefore we are to cater to. And as wiki often to, because consensus determines it. We are officially considering Haku to be male. And we will use a tag to note to readers and editors that our reason for stating this is because of Haku's direct statement in Episode 12 on being a Man.
 * We will note that Haku does have a strong distinction to look like a female in the series, and does sometimes act like one.
 * We will note that because of the fair degree of ambiguity in the series there are fan groups which consider Haku to be a girl.
 * However, because of multiple reasons we will not add a section on this to the article:
 * As going along with WP:UNDUE, all this speculation from one source doesn't have enough weight. Putting a debate section in the article would add to much weight on the small fact that there is a deal of ambiguity to Haku's gender. And that much weight will distract from the more important parts of the article. In other words, people will be more drawn, or scared by the debate, and focus less on Haku's involvement in the series, the types of jutsu, techniques, and kekkei genkai that Haku adds to the story. (A little ambiguity on one subject for a villain seen once in the series is far to un-notable in contrast to the entire series)
 * In addition, detailing the whole debate on the article fills it up with Original Research, which contrasts with WP:NOR. It's true that we focus a bit less on this, but for this one little subject, there is to much Original Research. All of the speculation on this comes either directly from Believe it!, or from his fanthread. With no other indirect sources, this is a severe hit on credibility and citation.
 * We also will not be linking to the fanthread:
 * Believe it! is an editor here. Being told to link to link to the thread by the creator would be considered a breach of Conflict of Interest. If other people, who are outside of the group who do not have bias towards this subject think that it is a good fanthread to add to a fan section of an external links section, then we may add it.
 * In addition to that, it would bring in criticism of favoritism. If we linked to Believe it!'s stuff, instead of compiling a list of pages arguing this subject, we would be target to the claim of favoring editors over quality of content. If some other users bring forth a variety of other similar pages, we may link to them, based souly on examining their thoroughness, non-point of view, how much of the counterpoints they consider, and how well done they are.
 * This is just a minor note, but people from Belive it!'s fangroup will not be considered in calculating how notable the quantity of people supporting the "Haku is a girl" notion. We'll only consider this number larger on seeing other un-connected groups which offer their own speculation.
 * This is also just a little advice, but people that have a strong bias towards the speculation on Haku's gender should avoid editing the gender related sections of the article. Feel free to contribute to the various other stuff about Haku, like his Jutsu, Kekkei Genkai, and what happens with him in the story. Just remember that while you may like to read it as if Haku is a girl, you should write it using he instead of she.
 * Conducting long debates on this on the talkpage and forums should also be avoided. It doesn't add anything to the wiki, and instead just creates friction between the editors which lowers the quality and newbie friendliness of the wiki's environment. For this reason, I am likely to be archiving the above section into a subpage at some point soon to avoid scaring the people who wish to discuss important parts of the article.


 * That is unacceptable and in violation of the Wikipedia rules. Haku's statement that she was a man is only proof that she claimed to be a man. It is not proof that she was a boy. The English version does not indicate that Haku was a boy either. Even though some indications that Haku was female are lost in translation from Japanese to English, the English version still indicates that Haku was most likely a female. Moreover, the Japanese version is straight from Kishimoto. If his intentions were to create a female character who merely pretended to be male for certain reasons, then stating your point of view in the article undermines the creator of the series. You are forbidden by the rules to push your point of view using Wikipedia articles. Moreover, Wikipedia does not promote consensus as a deciding factor in what information is posted on Wikipedia. The rules are very clear about that.
 * The other options you mentioned are also not good enough at this time. In order to have a neutral article we will need a separate section on this. This section can be short however. It may list the five best facts that indicate one side or the other to be true. This section should also mention that no official source directly states that Haku was a male or female and that Kishimoto has not given a statement about the issue at all.
 * I have no concerns about the article not linking to my presentation of evidence, nor would I want it to. However, saying that people who believe Haku was a girl do not count is clearly a biased statement. You are basically rejecting all of those who do not share your point of view.
 * Lastly, I agree that those who hold bias feeling on the issue should not be editing the article's references to gender. This means YOU Daniel. I will continue to edit the article to reflect neutrality on the issue of Haku's gender. I will also post my idea for the new section regarding Haku's gender in the talk page before adding it to the article so that you and others can have input on the section before it is posted. --Believe it! 23:29, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * For the love of....Kishimoto-san himself said, that Haku is indeed a boy. He would not have written it in manga just to screw with peoples questionable preferences. Kishimoto-san didn't mention Haku's gender at all because he already made it clear that while very girly, possibly gay, and somewhat awkward he still made it clear that Haku was a girl. Its conspiracy theorist, like yourself, that take given facts WITHIN THE TEXT as a grain of salt and use what you wish to believe as facts, which as you simply put it: "your point of view in the article undermines the creator of the series."


 * You cited Wikipedia Policy. You'd be surprised how many of Wikipedia's policy and rules contradict itself. As an active member of Wikipedia, Consensus does indeed matter, alot more than the rules, as cited by the oh so interesting rule "WP:IGNORE" which means Ignore All Rules.


 * We are not blocking your point of view, we are all welcome to your point of view. The problem is, we have FACTS to back up our claims. You have assumptions. When one says something then we don't sit here and go "Well, he must be lying." We go "Oh alright." And that is the truth until proven otherwise.--TheUltimate3 23:50, 6 December 2007 (UTC)