Talk:Blaze Release/Archive 3

Debut?
So if it's part of Enton that he can put out the flames, wouldn't the debut be the chapter he actually put them out? Seelentau 愛議 21:26, February 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * I've seen people argue about Itachi having extinguished the flames as well, I don't recall.--Elveonora (talk) 21:48, February 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * What chapter? Seelentau 愛議 22:09, February 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Chapter 390 page 6--Elveonora (talk) 22:25, February 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * He stopped casting it, yes. He did not put it out, though. Seelentau 愛議 22:34, February 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * He didn't want to kill Sasuke and was pretending he wanted his eyes. So you mean to tell me the flame ceased to burn by itself?--Elveonora (talk) 12:41, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes. It burns everything it needs to, and if that's done, it stops, hm? Seelentau 愛議 12:56, February 3, 2014 (UTC)

So what you imply is that the technique's flame burns and is hot only while the user focuses his sight on a target? That kinda contradicts it burning the forests and if that were true, Sasuke would have had to just close his eyes in order to save Karin. Not to mention it would leave Zetsu's statement irrelevant if Itachi didn't do anything--Elveonora (talk) 13:00, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes... in that case, putting out the flames isn't part of Enton. Seelentau 愛議 11:21, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

That's what I'm getting at, Amaterasu article even states Itachi could put out the flames, yet this article accredits it to blaze release thing--Elveonora (talk) 12:10, February 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Unless things were changed, eons ago, the ability to put out the flames was not one attributed to Blaze Release, but a power of mastery of Amaterasu. The ability to manipulate the flames (read: Have it move in one direction, then suddenly turn to another, make stuff out of it, ect) was attributed to Blaze Release. Before Sasuke started doing stuff to it, Amaterasu could be cast but then it just kind of did it's own thing. Sasuke then decided to use Plot no Jutsu and made it do other stuff besides burn everything to the ground.
 * What did that little history lesson mean? It means that Itachi putting out the fire was not Blaze Release, just him exerting his mastery. Sasuke deciding to make spikes was using Blaze Release and that was the debut.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:38, February 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * The thing is, the article claims: "This nature also allows the user to extinguish these flames" ._. --Elveonora (talk) 17:49, February 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * /shrug Guess it shouldn't?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:00, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

While I agree that the ability to extinguish the flames should not be in this article, it wasn't explicitly pointed out that Itachi did the same to Sasuke's Orochimaru-style Replacement Technique. I believe Zetsu stated that Itachi stopped using Amaterasu, and was proceeding to go for Sasuke's eyes, not that he was stopping the flames for the sake of protecting those eyes. Due to the abilities Sasuke inherited from Orochimaru, the Replacement Technique could have been partitioned in such a manner that the flames would not consume the upper torso that Sasuke used as bait. And as Itachi had no real intention of taking Sasuke's life, or eyes, it's extremely doubtful that he would have willingly nailed Sasuke with Amaterasu unless he was aware of that Replacement Technique.

I'm of the opinion that Kagutsuchi is the only definite example of exerting that degree of control over Amaterasu's flames, and is the ocular power—the "new power"—that Sasuke discovered in Chapter 415. Many surmised that Itachi did so not only due to the circumstances of the Replacement Technique, but the translations that were made available to us at the time also insinuated as much. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 01:49, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Jutsu? Really?
I'm sorry, but isn't it more speculative to call Blaze Release just a jutsu instead of chakra nature? Yes, there's stuff with it that doesn't add up either way, but considering all the information baggage we have on how stuff is named in Naruto, calling it a chakra nature requires fewer assumptions and logic tinkering than calling it a jutsu. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:26, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wait, when did it stop being a nature?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 00:32, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * I was under the impression that it was discussed, eons ago, that if something ended up with "X Release" and led to techniques with "X Release: Y" it was a nature until Kishimoto decided to say otherwise. When the hell did that change?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 00:35, February 3, 2014 (UTC)

While I understand why some of you might be against my latest edits to this article, I think they were valid. This article is - as it is now - full of speculation about Enton and even while I agree with all of it, it's against how a Wiki should work if we leave those speculations in the article.

Enton was never called an advanced nature. Its ending is the only thing that suggests that it's an advanced chakra nature. Everything else speaks against it being a nature: There is no new nature created, it's cast through the eyes and there's only one nature involved (as far as we know). It's against what Kakashi described as a nature based Kekkei Genkai.

Also, if we apply the "X ton = nature" principle to everything, then wouldn't this be a nature, too? Seelentau 愛議 08:51, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think there are more examples of nature-like techniques like Toad Oil Bullet--Elveonora (talk) 12:58, February 3, 2014 (UTC)

But on actual topic, sorry to disappoint you Seel, but:
 * it's an application of Amaterasu
 * Amaterasu is Fire Release
 * therefore still a nature, advanced or not
 * meaning it should still be classified as Fire Release in the least--Elveonora (talk) 13:49, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, Enton is used through Fire Release, but it was never stated that it's a new nature. Amaterasu isn't a new nature and Enton is Amaterasu + Keitaihenka. By the manga's explanation, Enton is no new nature (or a new Kekkei Genkai, for that matter). Seelentau 愛議 13:52, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * True, we shouldn't suggest it's an advanced nature in case it hasn't been stated which I don't recall if it was. But I think you removed too much stuff, like the Tobirama statement for example which in fact lays evidence onto your proposition that it indeed may not be an advanced nature considering an instance of past possible user/s.

For example, the time-altering aspect of Tsukuyomi isn't mandatory, it can be used without it, so who is to say that every Amaterasu user can't learn "blaze release" which may simply be an optional trick to it?--Elveonora (talk) 14:06, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * I removed that, because he didn't say Enton, but Kagutsuchi. I guess that's just nitpicking, though. And I never said that no one else could possibly use Enton. Seelentau 愛議 14:42, February 3, 2014 (UTC)

Also unless I'm missing something, another thing worthy of note is how come is this a doujutsu since we saw Sasuke use it with his hands? 0_o Kinda not following Kishi's logic--Elveonora (talk) 14:44, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Aamaterasu is a Dōjutsu. Seelentau 愛議 15:20, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * But so is Blaze Release, isn't it? What about C's comment? But he can do it with hands too so that's confusing to me--Elveonora (talk) 15:43, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * We don't know what exactly Blaze Release is, but it's a Dōjutsu because of Amaterasu. Sasuke can't do it with his hands, he just focuses it on his hands. Seelentau 愛議 17:09, February 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * Think of it the same way Obito can use Kamui to nigh-instantly transport his victims to the other dimensional space by making physical contact with them. Using Kagutsuchi in conjunction with Amaterasu allows the flames to be conjured up and wielded in that manner. At least, that's how I see it.


 * By the way: Still wishing you guys would just identify it as the way Sasuke dubs Amaterasu's flames. What other examples do we have of a Nature Release being distinguished by the manner in which Shape Transformation is applied? Nature Release has always been synonymous with Nature Transformation... Blargh. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 17:24, February 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * Blaze Release being a dojutsu was never in question, it manipulates Amaterasu, so that was a given. The issue was it wasn't a chakra nature. Which the name "Blaze Release", its application "Blaze Release: WhateverDaFudgeIWantBecauseI'mSasukeUchiha". The fact that we don't know what makes it doesn't change it fits with the other things we do know about Nature transformations.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 23:37, February 3, 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but when you say "advanced chakra nature", do you mean kekkei genkei? Iowndisciti (talk) 00:07, February 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Technically, yes. As one cannot have an advanced chakra nature without a kekkei genkai.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 02:41, February 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, Blaze Release is a dojutsu. The fact that we don't know what it is means that we don't add something like "is an advanced chakra nature". Simple as that. So how was my edit wrong? I removed everything that wasn't stated in the manga and left a trivia about the "release" and how it's unclear if it's a chakra nature. Seelentau 愛議 09:21, February 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * This is going to become a circle argument and one we've had plenty of times before. Anyone want to guess my next line? I'm certain you've all seen it by now.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:31, February 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, you could try to counter my arguments for a change? I countered your "release = nature" argument with "Tonton Jutsu isn't a nature, either" and even added a trivia about that suffix. What else don't you agree with? Seelentau 愛議 13:03, February 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Oh I most certainly can. And I have. Plenty of times before this one. But that merely delays the inevitable. Before I continue any further I'm hoping someone takes note of how this will most in all probability end up going.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:13, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, you will go on like "I am an admin and have power over you" and "since I disagree with you the discussion ends here and now." Right?Iloveinoxxx (talk) 13:19, February 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Close, but no. Think the last time this happened was a bit before your time. Ten Points to Ravenclaw for effort however.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:25, February 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Hufflepuff-senior. Mind to enlighten us mortals with your divine judgment?Idontcareaboutmyname (talk) 13:31, February 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Slytherin actually. (Green and Silver for Life!) but considering how you asked so very nicely.
 * 1) Seelentau brought up a counter to my first statement "release = nature" with "Tonton".
 * 2) I would have then countered with Tonton being a character's name. I would have also countered with past evidence in series have shown that when a technique went from "X Release: Y (Technique)", the first part was the nature.
 * 3) Seelentau could then counter with we have no proof it is a nature though, and to that he is not wrong.
 * 4) I would have countered, while we don't have proof that it is a nature, we also do not have proof that it is not one. I would have then used my previous statement again to point out that it follows the same written format as every other nature, and considering how it is not Fire, Wind, Earth, or Water, the logical conclusion is that it would be an advanced nature.
 * 5) Which rightfully should be countered with "We don't know that, so we shouldn't make assumptions."
 * 6) To which I would respond "That's the problem we keep having and why this crap happens every other month, we have enough information to make a conclusion on our own we just don't and sit with our thumbs up our asses."
 * 7) Then from here on out, it will be me vs anyone whom I've ever offended, leaving the conversation at hand to be ignored or resolved with no "end" to the overarching issue that leads to this thing in the first place.
 * That is basically how this conversation will continue. As it happened the last dozen times we had it.
 * Also, 50 points from Ravenclaw for making fun of Hufflepuff. Don't hate because they go hard.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:44, February 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * This is relevant. People go here.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:20, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

Just cut it out, all you guys are doing at this point is arguing. Grow up! It's not needed here, if you wanna argue do it on your own time don't waist space on this wikia for it. Munchvtec 16:35, February 4, 2014 (UTC)munchvtec


 * And I'm certain you have a full grasp at the actual scope of this "arguments". -_- If you did, you would know it is very needed which is why I seriously want people to go here.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:37, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

In my dearest opinion, I think this shouldn't be counted as a Kekkei Genkai. Though as I stated, it's just a opinion.

Now....Fall Under my Ultimate Genjutsu (talk) 20:56, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

How does this even work?
How can Sasuke cast flames on the whole ribcage of Susanoo when he can't even see the whole thing? How can he cast it in Susanoo's hand as a black orb while he's blindfolded? And does he really always cast Amaterasu first and only then uses form manipulation? Seelentau 愛議 23:56, March 21, 2014 (UTC)


 * How does Madara cast a eye technique without eyes? Seriously the laws of physics in the Naruto universe bend to the will of the Uchiha.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 00:11, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

I assume the flames spread around the ribcage after it's been ignited. As for the orb, I once again assume it's just a physical manifestation of his ability to use Blaze Release, much like the gourd from which Itachi's Tosuka Sword appears. I mean it's clearly not an actual, physical gourd and a giant sword made of energy doesn't actually need a sheath, but in order to understand it in a visual media, we're given these little things to help ease the transition a little. Really the only big one I wonder is the Eye Technique with no Eyes thing...--Hawkeye2701 (talk) 00:35, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

I see your point with this one Seel. Seemingly, this ain't a doujutsu, yet we were told it is at first. Same for Susanoo ^_ Sasuke can use Blaze Release no differently than his Chidori it seems.... create and hold it in hand without even looking and so on...--Elveonora (talk) 14:25, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * A buddy over at the German wiki described Enton as Sasuke's right eye's ability. While he can use Amaterasu as a long-range Ninjutsu with his left eye, he can use Enton with his right eye. It allows him to cast Amaterasu as form-manipulated flames, even at places he isn't looking at (based on the ribcage-thing). It would also be stupid if he had to cast Amaterasu before he used form-manipulation on the flames all the times, hm? I think we should probably re-write the article to reflect this. Seelentau 愛議 14:34, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

was it only our own assumption?
This is related to Seel's topic above, but deserves its own. I must ask everyone...

Were we actually ever told that Sasuke controlling Amaterasu with the other eye its cast with equals Blaze Release, or did we just somehow assign ourselves C's explanation of the armor of black flames around Susanoo phenomenon with Sasuke's sudden statements about Blaze Release? ;--)

I think we just assumed wrong... Amaterasu: Flame Wrapping Fire was NEVER Blaze Release to begin with, but rather just advanced control of the flames, but something even Itachi in theory could learn/do. How did I come to the conclusion? Well:


 * Blaze Release doesn't even require the eyes. Sasuke can:
 * 1) cast it without even first looking at his hand which holds it
 * 2) his eyes don't bleed when using Blaze Release, yet they do while using Amaterasu, figure

Short topic short, Blaze Release indeed is an advanced nature, but isn't what Sasuke did back at the summit and C was explaining about. Also Blaze Release isn't a doujutsu.--Elveonora (talk) 14:45, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually, we were never told what Blaze Release is, but from reading the manga, we can conclude that it has to do with Amaterasu. That's the only thing we can say for sure. Seelentau 愛議 15:06, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes. Just saying the whole Amaterasu Susanoo Armor thing was never stated to be Blaze Release and we just merged C's explanation of it with our limited understanding of Blaze Release ^_ Therefore I propose: Blaze Release =/= left/right eye control combo thingy at all.--Elveonora (talk) 15:09, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then what is Enton? Seelentau 愛議 15:22, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

enton is blaze release read the article plsIloveinoxxx (talk) 15:26, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Don't troll, it isn't helping anyone. Seelentau 愛議 15:36, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

I dont troll you just want to see porblems where no are atIloveinoxxx (talk) 16:30, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, sure. Seelentau 愛議 16:37, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry but, does that mean that Enton isn't an advanced Katon and the Amaterasu does only control the shape/quantity of the black flames?! I don't recall that part. — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 16:42, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, since it's related to Amaterasu, it's Fire + something, but isn't a doujutsu, that's all we know. @Shak, Enton was never just an advanced Katon. Most of us are certain that it's an advanced nature (save for Seel who wasn't in agreement once and may or may not agree now) What I'm saying is that what we thought to be part of Enton (C's left+right eye explanation) wasn't referring to Enton but something any Amaterasu user could do.

As Seel said, Sasuke doesn't even focus his sight when using Enton. He can form it from his hands without using his eyes. Therefore Enton doesn't just alter an already cast Amaterasu, Enton can be used without first having cast any Amaterasu to modify. As an example: take it that Enton is like Mokuton, the wood gets created right away. We just incorrectly assumed that Enton is what would in case of a Mokuton user be using Water on top of already cast Earth--Elveonora (talk) 16:57, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * I got it, Elve-kun. But how do you explain his control of his Enton when he merged his technique with Naruto's Rasenshuriken in chapter #641? Also, about his sword version. We couldn't see his eye when he performed it. That can't be assumed that he can use it without his eye, right? — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 17:18, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * I said the remote control of black flames isn't Blaze Release, just something Sasuke can do with his eye and presumably Itachi could have learned too. And it can be clearly seen in chapter 641 that his eyes weren't used, he even had his hands behind his back--Elveonora (talk) 17:36, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Let's... let's just collect every information the manga gives us: Anything else? Seelentau 愛議 17:43, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Enton has something to do with Amaterasu, but we don't know what exactly.
 * It is in some way used in Enton: Kagutsuchi, but we don't know in what way.
 * It was not stated to be the reason for Sasuke's ability to control the black flames. We don't know how he does that.
 * This ^_ But also:


 * We know it's a nature and since it's called Blaze Release and not any of the basic five, it's an advanced one and at least Fire, hence its relation to Amaterasu--Elveonora (talk) 17:56, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Na. Don't be a hypocrite. We don't know if it's a nature. Seelentau 愛議 17:59, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Let us please not start that all over again.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:14, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Isn't it a Nature though? As far as Chakra Natures go, there's the base 5, Yin, Yang and the Advanced natures. There hasn't been a single "Release" ability that wasn't a nature of some kind. So presumably Blaze Release must be rooted with a Blaze Nature, like Wood Release etc. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 18:16, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * I know, but then there's the manga who isn't showing anything that would further support it being a nature... we really only have the ton ending that suggest it's a nature, there's nothing else. Seelentau 愛議 18:19, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Seel, no hypocrisy at my side. As Ultimate3 said, lets not go there again, it was agreed upon to be a nature. The "ton" is more than enough evidence of it being a nature. And as you were told, it's not just the "ton" there, but the "ton" being used as a prefix.--Elveonora (talk) 18:22, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * But it ain't more than enough evidence how C explained Sasuke's ability to control the flames while thinking of Enton: Kagutsuchi for Enton being the source of the form manipulation? Seelentau 愛議 18:25, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

No. Sasuke didn't call what he did there Enton: Kagatsuchi and there's evidence against it be. Let me just say this. In case a technique ever shows up that's called: "Kuchiyose: something" (with even the kanji being the same 口寄せ) and if that will be enough for you to conclude it's a summoning with no doubt, it you will be you who is the hypocrite ^_ This is the same thing with Enton, so why doubts?--Elveonora (talk) 18:32, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * He did. C, while explaining Sasuke's Keitaihenka, remembers Sasuke using Enton: Kagutsuchi. Seelentau 愛議 18:34, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * EDIT: He sure did I see. That doesn't mean the manipulation itself was Enton. Enton is more likely to be the flame itself--Elveonora (talk) 18:47, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * So, Enton: Kagutsuchi = flame control, but then what is Enton? Seelentau 愛議 18:57, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's a fire visually identical to that of Amaterasu with the only differences being that it has affix of a nature and can be used from body parts other than eyes, like hands or Susanoo orbs. And right, I think along the same lines. The right eye control thing may be the "Kagatsuchi" part.--Elveonora (talk) 19:10, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * He did the control-thing and didn't call it Kagutsuchi, though... Seelentau 愛議 19:12, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

i support theultimate here unless kishimoto gives us a offical explanatin we dont know all of it and there will be always different opinions on the matter but one of those is not better thatn the others. so i say leave the article and discuss theorries on the chatIloveinoxxx (talk) 19:18, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, when was that? @Ilove, it's not "theories" it's a reconsideration of our understanding of what we state as facts. Would you rather us falsely claim something? Better safe than sorry. All I propose is for us to remove the control part and move it elsewhere, because it obviously isn't correct to claim Enton is just control of Amaterasu, since he can use it with hands and without casting Amaterasu first.--Elveonora (talk) 19:39, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * When he set Susanoo's ribcage on fire. Seelentau 愛議 20:20, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Aforementioned buddy also thought of how it's likely that Amaterasu is a technique that uses the black flames in the same way Enton is a technique? So Amaterasu isn't what the flames are, but a technique which utilizes them. Enton is simply another technique that does so. Or maybe Enton really is an advanced nature, part of which is Katon, thus the flames really are the strongest Katonjutsu and are shot through Amaterasu... or so? Seelentau 愛議 20:56, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, so? He isn't like a known local idiot called Naruto who yells the names of his techniques all the time. For the rest, no, because Amaterasu was stated to be Katon. Why would a katon technique be used to cast flames that are advanced nature?--Elveonora (talk) 21:17, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Na, like this: Enton is a kekkei genkai that allows the user to cast black flames, either as formless flames through amaterasu or as formed flames through kagutsuchi. part of the basic natures Enton is formed from is Katon, hence why Amaterasu is described as the strongest Katonjutsu. Seelentau 愛議 21:24, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

I think that Enton was the actual black flames, not what's controlling it (so not the sharingan) with ameterasu being a fire style jutsu, maybe enton is still fire style but advanced but then again ton would get rid of that idea, if that's so then a fire visually identical to ameterasu would be dumb without it being ameterasu do you not think? so would blaze release not just be what creates ameterasu so ameterasu Is a blaze release jutsu 21:31, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Enton is an advanced nature, made up of fire and ???, which enables the wielder to use "Amaterasu" and "Enton: Kagutsuchi". Seelentau 愛議 21:36, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Has anything since the 2nd databook actually called Amaterasu Katon (rather than Enton)?--BeyondRed (talk) 21:50, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * No. And even the databook entry calls it the strongest Katonjutsu, but that doesn't exclude the possibility of another nature involved. I mean, how else would you explain the different colour? Seelentau 愛議 21:57, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

I don't know guys. Because that would beg the question what's the point in even using Amaterasu since Kagatsuchi is just that, but better.--Elveonora (talk) 21:55, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because Sasuke's better than Itachi when it comes to that? C even stated that, right? Seelentau 愛議 21:57, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then why did Sasuke bother casting Amaterasu against Kabuto instead of Kagatsuchi? ;)--Elveonora (talk) 22:00, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because Kagutsuchi is more of a precise flame, while Amaterasu is more of a wide-spread flame. You wouldn't use a little drill if you wanted to drill a giant hole, would'ya? Seelentau 愛議 22:02, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay... but if black flames = Enton and both Amaterasu and Kagatsuchi are just techniques using it...


 * is Itachi user of Enton too?
 * if black fire is its own nature (which makes sense) so would not be black lightning? "headache"

EDIT: in fact we have canonical evidence for this. Tobirama hinted upon another Enton user he may have encountered in the past, meaning it's likely all users of black flames are Enton users, Itachi included. Bingo 0_0--Elveonora (talk) 22:06, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know about the Black Lightning, but yeah, Itachi would be an Enton user, too. And since Sasuke only knows Katon and Raiton, Enton is Katon and Raiton. Either that or Katon and Inton. Seelentau 愛議 22:15, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Even with lots of evidence from the canon... it's flawed. If black flames in general = advanced nature, being Fire + "something" then that doesn't explain Itachi. Sasuke has Fire and Lightning which could together make up the Blaze, but Itachi had only Fire and Water to our knowledge. Inton would do, but that's not a nature to our knowledge, since there are only 5 basic, right?--Elveonora (talk) 22:18, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * But It would make sense for It to be Inton do you not think? 22:22, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Inton is a nature, too. Along with Yoton it's one of the two, let's say, core natures. Because there would be no basic natures if there were no Inton and Yoton, huh?
 * Anyhow, deciding which other natures is used in Enton isn't up to us.
 * The only problem is, this is a conclusion which would need the fanbase to go all tabula rasa. It's hard to accept new conclusions if you thought that an old one was correct for such a long time.
 * Either we go this way or we write down what we really, absolutely know about Enton: It's something Sasuke uses and it has to do with Amaterasu. Seelentau 愛議 22:25, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

We may aswell write down what we absolutely know then because we're not really progressing very far In this discussion 22:31, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

There's already plenty of misinformation going on within the general fanbase, even on this wiki. But oh well... still, I would like opinions of others on this as well.--Elveonora (talk) 22:39, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * And then there are the ones who think they aren't misinformed but in reality, they are. And then there's me, I know everything. :D Anyhow, can you sum this up? I can see TheUltimate saying how he's confused by this discussion already x) Seelentau 愛議 22:54, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

The funny thing is that even if summed up 5 times just for the sake of clarity and written to be as easy to comprehend as it can get, he still doesn't get it. But we like him anyway x) Well, these are the key points:


 * It's generally agreed upon that Blaze is a nature. Not being part of the five, it's an advanced nature therefore.
 * It produces black flames identical to those of Amaterasu.
 * How likely is it for 2 different natures to be both visually and effect-wise indistinguishable?
 * How logical is it for something that controls a nature to be a different nature? (would be like saying that someone spitting mud equals Earth Release, but manipulation of the mud to be a different nature)
 * Unless Amaterasu is also Blaze.
 * Tobirama suggested other Kagatsuchi users in the past. What's more likely, that with already very rare Amaterasu, there were others with even rarer Blaze, or that Amaterasu is Blaze?
 * Why would a Fire Release be black in the first place (Amaterasu) unless it were more than Fire?

Is that it Seel?--Elveonora (talk) 23:09, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ya. This way, I'd be fine with Enton being an advanced nature. Seelentau 愛議 23:14, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * I can agree with that. I've always thought Amaterasu was more than just Fire by itself, and was actually Blaze. Plus Tobirama's statement does seem to indicate that there were other Enton users, so it would only make sense that those with Amaterasu were Enton users, rare as they already were. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 23:34, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Holy crap, am I reading this right? Have you guys finally come to the conclusion that Amaterasu's black flames = Enton? Better late than never, I suppose.

The black flames may have been described as the pinnacle of Katon, but have never looked, or functioned as normal fire has. It's perfectly sensible for Sasuke to be dubbing the black flames "Enton", and that it be considered an advanced nature release with Katon at it's base. Limiting it to the flames manipulated by Kagutsuchi was never appropriate, as a nature release has always been synonymous with the nature transformation, and distinct from the shape transformation applied to it; which is what Kagutsuchi does. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 01:40, March 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * Er, one more thing. I kind of skimmed through this discussion, so I apologize if it's already been addressed:


 * "And it can be clearly seen in chapter 641 that his eyes weren't used"... Sasuke was using his right eye there. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 02:04, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ya, but when he casted it, he was seemingly looking forward, not to his hands. Only in the next panel he'S focusing his right eye on his hand. Seelentau 愛議 11:16, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's not really outside the realm of possibility that Sasuke's left eye was glancing to the side to create the Enton; his left hand wasn't to his back, it was still within his field of vision. Also, when used in conjunction with Kagutsuchi, Sasuke doesn't always need a focal point with Amaterasu to manipulate the Enton. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 11:33, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Hello guys, I've been debating that matter with Seelentau already and am here to leave my opinion regarding this. While I agree with the fact that Enton is a advanced nature Kekkei Kenkai, you have seemingly a wrong understanding on how these techniques were used. Enton isn't an advanced nature Kekkei Gankai which allows to to create black flames; the black flame itself is not the result of two different natures with Katon merely involved. The black flame is, what is created if you use the technique which is named Amaterasu. Itachi is not able to use the Enton, only Sasuke, as he featured a far more advanced version from what we've seen from Amaterasu. Therefore, Enton was shown to be used with the exact other eye than with the one that casts Amaterasu.

You are irritated by the fact that the flames have a black appearance, while the color of the flames is not necessarily an indicator that it could belong to another nature than Katon. We've already witnessed the usage of black lightning for example, which on the other hand proves the fact that the color itself of the techniques is not necessarily an indicator for the nature which was used - a logical conclusion.

When comparing both the Amaterasu and Enton, we can notice that Sasuke focuses his left eye on the object which he wants to set on fire immediately, while he explicitly uses the Enton with the other eye when he suddenly creates the flames at his own range and uses shape manipulation.

If you remember the fight of Sasuke against A back than, where Sasuke suddenly set on fire the ribcage of his Susanoo without aiming at a specific location, we can conclude only one thing:

Enton is an advanced nature Kekkei Kenkai consisting of Katon and Inton, with Inton being the factor that, as it was defined, creates form out of nothing and thus perfectly suites the fact that Sasuke, when using Enton, is able to create those flames out of nothing, while Amaterasu on the other hand is a separate technique which allows you to create those black flames on another way, by focusing his eye at a specific spot. Amaterasu is not Enton. Consider that Enton is not a mere combination of Katon and Inton, as he uses it with his Dojutsu and controls the black flames only, so I would rather say it is a combination of Amaterasu AND Inton, shown to be used with the other eye than Amaterasu itself.

Other than that, there is no logical combination of natures which would result in those black flames and can only be used with the Mangekyo Sharingan. --Yatagarasu-Kagutsuchi (talk) 11:56, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * while he explicitly uses the Enton with the other eye - thiswas never stated and is the reason we're discussing this. Seelentau 愛議 12:01, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

I can show various scans where Sasuke was using Enton-Based techniques explicitly with the right eye. While the question remains what Enton itself is, it is safe to say that the techniques which are based on this nature are used with the right eye, as he is explicitly using Kagutsuchi with the right eye, which, on the other hand, is an Enton-based technique.--Yatagarasu-Kagutsuchi (talk) 12:11, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * He does the form manipulation with his right eye, which has not been attributed to Enton. Seelentau 愛議 12:16, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * This. It could even be seen. He first made black flames in his hand and only then used Kagatsuchi to modify them. If that weren't true, Kishimoto would have reversed the two panels, with the top one showing eye focus on his hand and the bottom one showing black flames getting created.--Elveonora (talk) 12:25, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Anyway, I also want to point out one thing guys, that especially SaisT was stressing on constantly. Amaterasu being Blaze Release pretty much resolves the "3 eye techniques" thing. Since Sasuke himself suggested to possess only 3, because of that people started to speculate that Sasuke can't have Tsukuyomi, since he already has Amaterasu, Blaze and Susanoo. Well, now there's room for the Tsukuyomi which he indeed has ^_--Elveonora (talk) 12:27, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Not precisely. Sasuke was shown to use Enton: Kagutsuchi synchronous with Naruto, who used the Rasengan. And this Kagutsuchi included the appearance of the flames as well. How can you anyway say that the shape manipulation is not attributed to the Enton, when Kagutsuchi, which does the shape manipulation, is an Enton-based technique? --Yatagarasu-Kagutsuchi (talk) 12:33, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Looks like you are correct about that. But then that may mean that Seel is right about right-eye manipulation not even being Enton.--Elveonora (talk) 12:45, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Yata, can you provide any instance of Sasuke using his right eye to create the flames and yelling/thinking "Enton: Kagatsuchi" simultaneously to prove your point?--Elveonora (talk) 12:47, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * The right-eye manipulation is Kagutsuchi, as Sasuke called it Kagutsuchi when he started to manipulate the black flames, and C later referred to this shape manipulation and stated that Sasuke used his right eye to do that. And Kagutsuchi is, as I said, an Enton-based Jutsu as we probably agree, as he calls it Enton: Kagutsuchi.--Yatagarasu-Kagutsuchi (talk) 12:57, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Yes. You need to look at the page 12 of chapter 641, when the only instance that was shown, was Sasuke, who created those black flames in his hand while running towards Obito and calling it Enton: Kagutsuchi, in the next panel showing to use the right eye. There was no separate panel shown of Sasuke creating those flames, he suddenly hold them in his hand while calling it "Enton: Kagutsuchi", synchronous with Naruto, who made the same with the Rasengan. Not without reason, Kishimoto always illustrated the usage of Enton as something which creates the black flames out of nothing and practicing shape manipulation. Sasuke was never shown to use his left eye to use Amaterasu, before shaping them with the other eye.--Yatagarasu-Kagutsuchi (talk) 12:57, March 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * What you're doing is attributing characteristic Z to jutsu X, because jutsu Y, which stems from jutsu X, has characteristic Z. What you're ignoring is that it's possible that characteristic Z is a feat of jutsu Y only. For example is the wind nature of Futon: Rasengan a characteristic of exactly that jutsu. By your logic, it would be a characteristic of the normal Rasengan, too. Seelentau 愛議 12:49, March 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * What you probably don't understand is, that the Enton is an own nature which results in various techniques that are based on this nature, whether it is Kagutsuchi or weapons of black flames. When I recall your example, the more correct example would be to say, that both the Fuuton: Rasengan and Fuuton: Rasenshuriken are techniques which are based on Fuuton, as Kagutsuchi is based on the Enton. Logically, you would ascribe both the Fuuton: Rasengan and Fuuton: Rasenshuriken to the Fuuton itself, as I ascribe the Kagutsuchi to the Enton element. And if Kagutsuchi results from Sasuke's right eye, the Enton itself must also be something that is originated from that eye.--Yatagarasu-Kagutsuchi (talk) 13:05, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, if I take your example, this is what you're doing: You have Futon: Rasen Shuriken and its ability to cut things on a microcellular level. By your logic, Futon itself has this ability too, since one of its jutsu has it. But that's obviously not true, not every Futonjutsu cuts on that level. Seelentau 愛議 13:11, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

@Yatara, as I said, he was shown using the eye in another panel after already holding the flame and announcing Enton: Kagatsuchi. I asked for evidence that Enton: Kagatsuchi = manipulation of black flames with right eye. What I believe I and Seel are getting at, is that Enton: Kagatsuch = black flames created from body parts other than the eyes, while the manipulation with the eye afterwards is something else. For example when Sasuke used his eye to make the shield/armor of black flames, he didn't announce Kagatsuchi--Elveonora (talk) 13:28, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

In chapter 632 when he does the whip, he is looking forwards also, not at his hand. Same when he shoots arrow of black flames with Susanoo, he calls it Kagatsuchi without modifying anything--Elveonora (talk) 13:39, March 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * Elveonora, look at the first page of the chapter 464. It is clearly shown that Sasuke closes his left eye and is focusing his right one the flames to change their form, calling it "Enton: Kagutsuchi". C, at page 7 refers to exactly this moment and says, that Sasuke changes the shape of the flames with his right eye. And in the first page you can clearly see how Sasuke is manipulating the form with his right eye.--Yatagarasu-Kagutsuchi (talk) 13:42, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Even if you are correct, why do you conclude that Amaterasu which just happens to be a black Fire Release and something what looks the same just happens to be another nature? Isn't it more logical for Amaterasu to also be Blaze? Since when another nature is used to control a nature?--Elveonora (talk) 13:52, March 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * @Elveonora, in my opinion, the Enton serves as an alternate source to create these flames, alternatively to Amaterasu. I believe, that the Enton is an advanced nature which consists of Amaterasu and Inton and is unlocked with the Dojutsu. Why do I think of Inton? The Inton wouldn't change the properties of the black flames but only allow Sasuke to create them by another way than Amaterasu does; by letting them appear at a spot he's not aiming at, for example to set on fire the ribcage of his Susanoo, what he did against A. As Inton is known to create form out of nothing. It doesn't matter that the flames are of black color, this is a special fire that is used by a Dojutsu. We also saw black lightning which is still lightning, so why can't there be black flames which are still Katon? Of what nature can you think that makes flames black? I remember you that Raiton is the only element left to create an advcanced nature with Katon.--Yatagarasu-Kagutsuchi (talk) 14:05, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Another question if Amaterasu was an Enton Jutsu. Why is Sasuke using only Amaterasu with his left eye, while the rest of the Enton-Based techniques is used only with the right (or at least not with the left) one? Why are all Enton-techniques called Enton but not Amaterasu?--Yatagarasu-Kagutsuchi (talk) 14:05, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes. Fire+Lightning is yet to be revealed. For your question, that's the thing, he used Enton: Kagatsuchi as a whip from his hand, therefore not the right eye. Do you really think Kishimoto would draw him looking forward twice and in the first instance have him look at his hand only after holding the flame and having already proclaimed the name of the technique just because? For the rest, I could ask the same thing even if Amaterasu isn't Enton but just Katon, that why isn't it called Fire Release: Amatarasu. Also:


 * if Enton is Amaterasu(Fire)+Inton and Inton is what controls the Amaterasu, then saying that Enton: Kagatsuchi equals the control basically says it to be the only Enton technique. I find it very unlikely that Kishimoto would make a one-purpose nature.
 * it hasn't ever been suggested that Inton or Yoton can be combined with anything else but each other to make Onmyoton. Also Yin-Yang release combines kanji of Yin and Yang releases. So why would the combination of one of the basic five natures (say fire) with either yin or yang (in this case yin) be 炎 rather than 火陰 ?--Elveonora (talk) 14:21, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Seems like Seele and I are coming to a conclusion slowly. We are on the right path.--Yatagarasu-Kagutsuchi (talk) 14:22, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, I hope so. But I find it very unlikely that all Enton does is give Amaterasu shape. That's very one-purpose to be a nature. Why couldn't he just add basic shape transformation to Amaterasu rather than shaping it with Yin?--Elveonora (talk) 14:37, March 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * Seele had the idea, that both Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi are Enton-Based Ninjutsu with the left eye being the one that casts Amaterasu and the right one that casts Kagutsuchi. That sums up. But I can't think of any other nature than Inton, that makes up Enton. The black flames consist of the same material as Katon, fire is fire. But why is this flame black?--Yatagarasu-Kagutsuchi (talk) 14:49, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Inton creates shape and form out of nothing, as it was explained. Inton is the "Darkstyle" and we know that Uchiha are the one who are not only using masterful Katon, but have also powerful spiritual energy (the Inton, while the Senju have the Yoton). Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi are not only black flames. They appear from nothing. Unlike any other Katon, which the user would normally spit out of his mouth, Amaterasu creates those black flames at any point Sasuke aims at, while Kagutsuchi creates the flames at his own range even without aiming, while also shaping them. And due to the Inton being "Darkstyle", the flame appear in a black color. Both Sasuke and Itachi possess Enton and Tsukuyomi (still curious about latter), with Itachi being the one that uses the powerful Genjutsu (time manipulation) and weak Enton (only Amaterasu) and Sasuke the "weak" Genjutsu but strong Enton (shape manipulation). That's indeed a very interesting idea.--Yatagarasu-Kagutsuchi (talk) 14:49, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Glad that we are now on common ground. Also Susanoo too, Sasuke's use is seemingly better (perfect Susanoo) but Itachi's has Yata Mirror and Totsuka to compensate. Each of them is better at the other thing. But even tho it's all good and all, the majority of the editors will have to agree too--Elveonora (talk) 14:59, March 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * I think that you can achieve the perfect Susanoo after obtaining the Eternal Mangekyo. Even Itach said you would obtain true power once you did awake those eyes. Basically, the EMS are the same eyes as MS only with eternal light. But I think that the fact, that you don't lose light and the strain of using this techniques is as good as vanished, you are able to perform Susanoo to such magnitudes.--Yatagarasu-Kagutsuchi (talk) 15:05, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Itachi - the strongest Genjutsu Sasuke - the strongest Enton Madara - the strongest Susanoo

That's what I think. :)--Yatagarasu-Kagutsuchi (talk) 15:05, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

D: I leave this topic alone for a few hours and it's completely regressed! Guys, please, no Nature Release has ever been distinguished by the Shape Transformation that is applied to it. Nature Release = Nature Transformation. All the ocular power of Sasuke's right eye, Kagutsuchi, does is apply Shape Transformation to the prior established Nature Transformation. That's all. Kagutsuchi is prefixed with Enton because that is what Sasuke has dubbed the black flames, not what they are becoming as he manipulates them.

Kagutsuchi is the Shape Transformation to Amaterasu's Nature Transformation; the left eye creates the Enton, while the right grants free reign over it. Two cornerstones of chakra manipulation being represented by each ocular power.

Again, Amaterasu has never looked, or functioned like normal Katon. It's not just it's black appearance, it's the fact that it continues to burn for an entire week and can't be doused out; no simple Katon has that kind of longevity. That black flame is an advanced Nature Release, and Kishimoto can still get away with calling it a "Katon" years ago by leaving that as one of it's catalyst Nature Transformations. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 15:50, March 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * Lol... And no, Elve, this does not resolve the dispute over Sasuke's 3 ocular powers. :P —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 15:55, March 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * Itachi's MS: Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, Susanoo
 * Sasuke's MS: Kagutsuchi, Amaterasu, Susanoo
 * :b--Yatagarasu-Kagutsuchi (talk) 16:09, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Bingo! Buyin' you a drink. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 16:13, March 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * Na. If we decide to solve it like this, it's [Amaterasu, Kagutsuchi] = [Enton], which makes it
 * Sasuke: Enton, Tsukuyomi => Susanoo
 * Itachi: Enton, Tsukuyomi => Susanoo
 * Madara: ???, ??? => Susanoo
 * The only difference between Sasuke and Itachi is their expertise with Enton and Tsukuyomi. Seelentau 愛議 16:29, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except that ability to exert that degree of control over Enton is designated to a separate eye, and recognized by Sasuke as an ocular power in Chapter 415. While Kagutsuchi may be dependent upon Amaterasu's Nature Transformation, it isn't merely an extension of that ocular power. The rest of the argument concerning Tsukuyomi, you can find in that technique's talk page. :P —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 16:37, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, the form control is something only Sasuke can do with Kagutsuchi. Until now, everyone thought it was something like this:
 * Amaterasu = Kagutsuchi = Tsukuyomi = Kamui = Kotoamatsukami < Susanoo, but it's actually
 * Enton = Tsukuyomi = Kamui = Kotoamatsukami < Susanoo. Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi are sub-techniques of Enton. Someone who uses Amaterasu is also an Enton user and you don't need to awake Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, but Enton and Tsukuyomi to use Susanoo. Seelentau 愛議 16:42, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Or just any two distinct ocular powers. Let's not confuse the catalyst ocular powers themselves with their results. It's like saying Susanoo requires that any Genjutsu, or "Inton" be present as one of the Mangekyō Sharingan users ocular powers. Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi may revolve around the creation and manipulation of Enton, respectively, but they are still distinct in their purpose, and shouldn't be bunched up together as "Enton"... If that makes any sense. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 16:49, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Outside of Enton: Kagutsuchi
Has the term "Enton" ever been used outside of technique names? Seelentau 愛議 23:28, March 22, 2014 (UTC)


 * Besides Sasuke commending Gaara for successfully defending against his Enton back at the Kage Summit, it has always been used as the prefix for Kagutsuchi. Unfortunately, Sasuke has never identified the black flames cast by Amaterasu alone as "Enton", which was the irrefutable proof I was looking for to resolve the dispute that went on in the prior topic.


 * Looks like sound logical reasoning went on ahead and you guys didn't need it in the end, though. :P —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 01:47, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Omg... why haven't we noticed this earlier? Sasuke throws Amaterasu at Gaara's sand and names it Enton and we never concluded that Amaterasu is a technique used through Enton? Really? Wow... Seelentau 愛議 11:34, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because it wasn't just Amaterasu, Kagutsuchi was being used. On the succeeding page, you'll see a ball of Enton floating above Sasuke; the flames that were thrown before were likely coming from that. To substantiate that, the flames that made contact with Gaara's sand had weight behind them, they were pushing into Gaara's sand upon contact, not simply being lit up on it. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 11:41, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh, I never saw that orb... the Kana used are ドッ, they show a big impact or a slam, so... can we really say they were pushing into the sand? Seelentau 愛議 12:05, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's it, a normal casting of Amaterasu wouldn't be causing a big impact or a slam. Enton would simply be lit up on the sand. Kagutsuchi gives the Enton form, the black flames were being hurled as bolts of black flame, and you can actually see the flames pushing into Gaara's sand on those panels. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 15:54, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Side note: This is an early indicator of how Sasuke would be utilizing Enton through his Susanoo. :P —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 16:15, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, then what about Itachi? He chased Sasuke with Amaterasu, but three "bolts" missed and were seemingly shot in the surrounding forrest. Was that Enton, too? Seelentau 愛議 16:34, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

I equate what happened to with Itachi as something similar to what we saw Sasuke do with Amaterasu in Chapter 582. Itachi didn't cast Amaterasu multiple times in that instance, but his focal point was trailing Sasuke and igniting the mountain's surrounding forest until it finally caught up. And to clarify: I think any instance of Amaterasu being used is Enton. The black flames alone = Enton. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 16:42, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * So presently you just still disagree with Tsukuyomi because both eyes have an Enton technique (amaterasu and kagatsuchi) but both are just 1 power, Enton. Difference between Sasuke's left and right Entons is like Obito's right and left eyes' Kamuis, they are still one power even if they do something slightly different.--Elveonora (talk) 17:11, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * As I said to you on Tsukuyomi's talk page, Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi both have a distinct purpose, even if they revolve around the use of Enton. While there is now a needle thin difference between what distinguishes the ocular power "Kamui" from either of Obito's eyes; and those discrepancies may lie with the users, more than the eyes themselves. And my issues against Sasuke's possession of Tsukuyomi amount to more than just Sasuke already having two ocular powers that revolve around the use of Enton, but the lack of any confirmed use of such a prominent technique from Sasuke's end after all these years, and his inability to use the trait that serves to differentiate it from the rest of the Sharingan's broken repertoire of Genjutsu.
 * Additionally, we still need to find out what it is that makes Sasuke's Kagutsuchi so much more powerful than what Tobirama's seen before. Is it because he's using it to manipulate Enton? Or is it because he was using it on a grander scale through his Susanoo Kagutsuchi? The point I'm getting at is that, as the ocular power is named after the Shinto God of Fire, it may not have been limited to manipulating the apex of that Nature Transformation that Sasuke has dubbed Enton. Kagutsuchi could have been used without Amaterasu, in the past. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 17:31, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

You just want him too hard to not have Tsukuyomi the way I see it. Go look at the Killer B genjutsu again and tell me that wasn't Tsukuyomi, if the Danzo instance is too vague for you. And actually, I think we have had a third instance of Tsukuyomi from Sasuke, that being Susanoo Genjutsu. And I see he did it with ordinary Sharingan, well... except that C stated that it was the same chakra as when he uses Mangekyou Sharingan--Elveonora (talk) 17:37, March 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * And it's unfortunate to me that you see it that way, as I used to be a strong advocate of Sasuke having Tsukuyomi until Danzō said he couldn't do the one thing that distinguished it from the rest. And all the years of not identifying it amongst Sasuke's three ocular powers have only served to solidify that. The monochrome aesthetic is of lesser importance to me than the Genjutsu's actual effects, and the Genjutsu cast on Killer B was intended to bind, which isn't Tsukuyomi's purpose.


 * Really, every time this comes up, it's like preaching to the (former)choir. :P


 * So, anyways, this isn't about whether Sasuke has Tsukuyomi or not, this is about defining Enton. Let's take the Tsukuyomi talk back to it's talk page, please. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 17:47, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's actually on topic. We are either wrong with Amaterasu being Blaze or Sasuke having Tsukuyomi but in that case Amaterasu and Blaze are two.
 * And don't ignore details. Ordinary genjutsu doesn't put strain on the eye and there was no reason to activate Mangekyou first for him to have used it, unless it were a Mangekyou genjutsu and the only one we know of is Tsukuyomi. Same for the one against C, it was noted to be Mangekyou chakra--Elveonora (talk) 17:53, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * ... :/ It really isn't.


 * Anyways, we actually went over this a bit on Tsukuyomi's talk page before. The fact remains that it was cast from Sasuke's regular ol' Sharingan. Sasuke was on the cusp of invoking Susanoo, Karin could sense it's chakra back when he started fighting the Samurai. But the chakra of a Mangekyou Sharingan technique being present in the Genjutsu does not make it Tsukuyomi. The fact that a Genjutsu of the normal variety could invoke such strain on his eyes proves all the more that Sasuke's similar drawback after casting that Genjutsu on Killer B shouldn't be used as irrefutable evidence that it had to be Tsukuyomi. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 18:06, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

"Ordinary genjutsu doesn't put strain on the eye and there was no reason to activate Mangekyou first for him to have used it, unless it were a Mangekyou genjutsu and the only one we know of is Tsukuyomi"

Kotoamatsukami.

Just felt that had to be said. Still, having looked back over it, The two times I've looked at Itachi using Tsukuyomi, It's been in Negative, but not all the time when he used it against Sasuke, it only seemingly went Negative that time when Sasuke beat it. As for Sasuke, The tech he used against Bee was in Negative, but the one he used against Danzo wasn't and the one he used against C was with regular Sharingan. So Either Tsukuyomi isn't always in negative, or what Sasuke beat wasn't Tsukuyomi, which can't be the case since that's exactly, without a doubt what Zetsu identified it as. So aside from muddying already murky waters of the Tsukuyomi debate, let's get back on track.

Blaze release, has Sasuke used that term beyond Kagutsuchi, as far as I've been able to find, no, I didn't even find the one mentioned earlier, but I wasn't really looking for that one. The closest I have is non-canon sources, such as the name for Sasuke's Magatama attack being Blaze Release: Yaksomething Magatama etc. But that's only from the games, so that really doesn't help us at all. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 22:00, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

I believe that Tsukuyomi is in negative only when the user controls the perception of time, but that one is optional, not a mandatory part of the technique. Meaning SaisT's argument that Sasuke's genjutsu can't be Tsukuyomi because it doesn't control perception of time is moot. For the rest, well, we have Blaze Release: Susanoo Kagutsuchi but there's still Kagatsuchi in it.--Elveonora (talk) 22:19, March 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's only "moot" if you can find a definitive example of Tsukuyomi that doesn't alter the victim's temporal sense. Not from Sasuke of course, as his presumed used of the technique has been under constant scrutiny all these years.
 * Also, the monochrome aesthetic could also be a show of power that the Mangekyō Sharingan grants over the illusionary space it creates. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 00:27, March 24, 2014 (UTC)

To summarize the above...
So, as usual, I re-wrote the German article based on what we collected here and over at the German forum. However, I decided to put a warning at the top of the page about how the article is based on the author's interpretation of things, due to missing explanation given by the mangaka. Now for the translation:
 * Enton (炎騰, Blaze Release) is a Kekkei Genkai that enables the wielder to give his chakra a flame-like nature and create black flames (黒炎, Kokuen). Unlike any other chakra nature, Enton can only be used in combination with a Mangekyō Sharingan. The shown users of this nature are Itachi and Sasuke Uchiha. Enton is partially made up of Katon.
 * The black flames can be used as a long-range weapon through Amaterasu, which creates the flames where the user is looking at. They're said to be as hot as the sun and to burn until the target is completly incinerated.
 * Sasuke is also able to change the form of the black flames with his right eye, a technique known as Enton: Kagutsuchi. By doing so, he can give multiple forms to the flames and use them as weapons. It appears he can also cast them where he isn't looking at.

Anything missing? As always, decide for yourselves if you want to work with this or not. ^_^ Seelentau 愛議 22:30, March 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * I approve. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 00:28, March 24, 2014 (UTC)

I still see no point in changing anything we're already saying in any article. There is no point in going through the same motions again and again, specially when there is no new information. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:47, March 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * So we really are doing this shit again aren't we? /sigh
 * I agree with Omnibender.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 01:21, March 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * So we only edit old stuff when there's new information, but not when old information is revised? Seelentau 愛議 09:10, March 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * It depends on what is being "revised". But I, for the second time this weekend, am merely being unnecessarily antagonistic for no reason. I don't believe it necessary but I defer judgement to others.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:46, March 24, 2014 (UTC)

Shouldn't Madara be listed as a user of this element since he did use some kind of manipulation on Sasuke's Amaterasu? Steveo920 18:59 March 24, 2014
 * Why do people keep saying this? Madara absorbed the flames.


 * Revised it a bit to play a lil' nicer with the current description:
 * is an advanced chakra nature kekkei genkai of the Uchiha clan, that allows them to create unquenchable black flames (黒炎, Kokuen). These black flames are said to be as hot as the sun, and consume almost anything — even other types of flame. They continue to burn for 7 days and nights, or until their target has been completely incinerated. While it is described as the pinnacle of Fire Release, the other chakra nature involved in it's creation is presently unknown.


 * Unlike any other chakra nature, Blaze Release can only be used through the Mangekyō Sharingan. It is created by the dōjutsu Amaterasu, which ignites the black flames where the users' focal point lies. Sasuke Uchiha has demonstrated the ability to both extinguish, and apply Shape Transformation to the black flames through the dōjutsu Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi; manipulating them for various offensive and defensive purposes. Upon entering its final form, his Susanoo gained an orb of black flames, which serves as an alternate source of Blaze Release for him to manipulate on a grander scale.
 * How's that? Just gotta re-add the references where appropriate. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 03:33, March 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ya, seems almost perfect. The only thing is, Amaterasu and Enton: Kagutsuchi are both sub-techniques of Enton. The black flames can be created through both jutsu, not only through Amaterasu.
 * On another note, Madara is most likely a user since he had to master Amaterasu for Susanoo. He also didn't absorb Sasuke's Amaterasu, that's a translation mistake. Seelentau 愛議 09:34, March 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * .____. Yeah, now we come to a disagreement. I can see that you and Elveonora were alluding to that in one of the earlier topics, but I do not agree with the notion that Kagutsuchi is used to manifest Enton, or that "Enton" is an ocular power that Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi are subset to; the latter are the ocular powers that create and control the former. Just because we see Sasuke suddenly springing up Enton when he announces Kagutsuchi, doesn't mean Amaterasu isn't playing a part.


 * And I've already expressed my views of Susanoo's prerequisites to death, so I'm not going too deep into that again, but Madara's possession of Susanoo does not confirm Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu as his catalyst techniques for it. However, Madara did demonstrate the ability to absorb chakra with his body two times later in that chapter. Using that to quell the flames is much more plausible than assuming he has Kagutsuchi. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 09:54, March 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * But Enton is what creates the black flames, the same way Yōton creates lava. We have "Enton: Amaterasu" and "Enton: Kagutsuchi", both techniques create the flames in different manners. Seelentau 愛議 10:20, March 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Amaterasu is the only one of the two that definitively creates Enton. The situation with Kagutsuchi is now turning into the "Kyuubi-less Naruto's one-handed Rasengan" debacle, with readers assuming that he whips one up without the aid of an additional hand, or Kage Bunshin at every given opportunity just because the author doesn't depict him going through the usual motions.


 * C laid the groundwork for Sasuke's ocular powers for us in Chapter 464, and nothing has conflicted with that to this day. Amaterasu is responsible for creating that Enton, and Kagutsuchi is prefixed with that Nature Release due to it's dependency upon Amaterasu's creation of Enton. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 10:43, March 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then how did he create the flames on Susanoo's ribcage? He looked in one direction, but the flames were created all around him and C even noticed that this case was form manipulation, which in turn is Kagutsuchi. Seelentau 愛議 10:56, March 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Right, Shape Transformation. Were that a case of Kagutsuchi creating black flames, he would have attributed that to Nature Transformation. Shape Transformation isn't just about shaping ethereal substances into the shapes of swords 'n such, but is also responsible for effects like the various Nature Release-related circular encampments(like Suijinheki); it determines the range and scope of the kneaded chakra. Kagutsuchi is used in conjunction with Amaterasu to produce these results. Sasuke doesn't have to be looking directly at the rib cage(or his left hand from 641, as was mentioned earlier) to ignite it with Enton, as he would with Amaterasu alone. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 11:12, March 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I didn't get that explanation... Let me repeat: There were no flames on Susanoo's ribcage. Sasuke looked in one direction, there's no way he could see the whole ribcage. Amaterasu ignites what the caster is looking at. So, since Sasuke couldn't look at the whole ribcage, he couldn't ignite it with Amaterasu. Am I right with that? If I am, riddle me this: What other technique aside from Amaterasu is releated to the black flames and, on top of that, has to do with the shape transformation Sasuke did, which was noticed by C? That's right: Kagutsuchi. There is no other way Sasuke could've ignited the whole ribcage with form-manipulated flames. Seelentau 愛議 11:36, March 25, 2014 (UTC)

Seelentau is right. Amaterasu casts the black flames only at the spot the user is aiming for. Kagutsuchi is defined as a technique which lets Sasuke use those black flames at his own range, in most cases as already shaped flames, such as a sword which he holds in his hand or an arrow of Susanoo. There would be no sense in holding a power in his right eye which only allows you to further influence something only your left eye could create. If we go by facts, Sasuke never visibly cast the black flames with his left eye before immediately shaping them with the right. Sasuke is always shown to focus his left bleeding eye on a specific point to cast the flame, but never to create the flames from nothing around himself or use them as already shaped weapons. I thought that we already agreed with the fact that the black flames are not something that is exclusively created with the technique Amaterasu, but is a Jutsu of the nature Enton, which Sasuke has mastered and thus possesses a wider array of capabilities to use this nature. Right after Sasuke set on fire the ribcage of his Susanoo, C stated it as him being able to even control the black flames, and that obviously falls for his right eye.--Yatagarasu-Kagutsuchi (talk) 14:00, March 25, 2014 (UTC)


 * I took SaiST's version and edited the second part a little:


 * Unlike any other chakra nature, Blaze Release can only be used through the Mangekyō Sharingan. One way to create those flames is through the Ninjutsu Amaterasu, which ignites them where the users' focal point lies. Sasuke Uchiha has demonstrated a more advanced ability to use this nature, as he can even evoke the black flames within reach and apply Shape Transformation on them through the Ninjutsu Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi, manipulating them for various offensive and defensive purposes. C recognized Kagutsuchi as Sasuke’s right eye’s ability. Upon entering its final form, his Susanoo gained an orb of black flames, which serves as an alternate source of Blaze Release for him to manipulate on a grander scale.


 * :)--Yatagarasu-Kagutsuchi (talk) 15:40, March 25, 2014 (UTC)

I apologize if I didn't convey myself well enough. The point I was trying to make with Suijinheki(and other encampment Ninjutsu like it) is that when Shape Transformation is involved the range, the manner in which it interacts with the Shinobi's surroundings, they have complete control over that. Amaterasu is normally cast at range, which involves the build up of chakra, the focus and strain that induces the ocular bleeding and veined sclera. What I'm saying is Kagutsuchi's Shape Transformation circumvents that. It's not that Kagutsuchi itself is creating the Enton, it's allowing the Enton created by Amaterasu to be wielded without that intense focus, shaped 'n shifted within his immediate area. Amaterasu + Kagutsuchi is what allows Enton to be utilized like most other Nature Transformations, whereas it would normally be limited to the ranged, and taxing ignition of the black flames that Amaterasu normally represents.

Thus, Sasuke doesn't need to be staring at the rib cage of his Susanoo to light them up, Kagutsuchi's "Shape Transformation" in tandem with Amaterasu is what's allowing him to do so; just as the Suiton spewed by Tobirama is being manipulated by Shape Transformation to encircle him and create an encampment of water. And the same goes for the other two instances of him directly wielding Enton earlier in this battle. So, can we please not skew the definition laid out to us about these ocular powers? Amaterasu still creates, Kagutsuchi still shapes, they both represent these two cornerstones of chakra manipulation, and just because you aren't directly seeing Amaterasu's involvement in Kagutsuchi doesn't mean it's not playing a part. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 16:34, March 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * And to address the mention of Susanoo: these two ocular powers are being made manifest through Sasuke's Susanoo; both the creation and shaping of it. That is his Susanoo's ability. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 16:43, March 25, 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, you now made a whole theory which you want to sell as an undisputed fact. So Amaterasu alone strains your eye so much that it causes bleeding, but the combination of both Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi doesn't? What does the range of Amaterasu has to do with the strain caused to your eyes? I recall the fight of the Uchiha brothers against Kabuto, where he caused Amaterasu right before Kabuto's feet, what was near Sasuke's own range. You know that he created the orb of black flames and stabbed Zetsu while his eyes were bonded, while we know that Amaterasu needs to focus on a point? You know that Sasuke used Enton: Kagutsuchi to create the black flames in his hand in the same panel? It's nice to defend his own theory, but you don't need to sell it as a fact as nothing was confirmed. No matter at what range Amaterasu is cast, the strain causes the bleeding, hence Itachi's eye bled though he cast Amaterasu at the Katon right before him. There is no circumvent in your theory, as the flame is still cast via Amaterasu, what would strain your eyes. And you have the example of Sasuke even using Enton with his eyes bonded. The left eye isn't involved when he is using Enton: Kagutsuchi.--Yatagarasu-Kagutsuchi (talk) 17:32, March 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry if it seems that I'm trying to pass this off as fact. This is the manner in which I've evaluated how Sasuke's ocular powers are utilized in tandem, to work around the established rules. Kagutsuchi is said to mold Enton, not create it, and I'm standing by that. As someone that's been taking part in the Tsukuyomi vs Kagutsuchi debate for years, I understand the importance of looking beyond what has been established in some of the older intel available in both the manga, and databooks. But if I can see an explanation that compliments that information, I'll adhere to that, rather than contort it.
 * Amaterasu is generally depicted as very strenuous, as opposed to how Sasuke's been able to progressively use his Enton through Kagutsuchi with more leisure. I attribute that to the focus involved in the ignition of Enton at a distance from their body, the necessity of a focal point; similar to how Kakashi needs intense focus to ascertain Kamui's Jikuukan Kekkai, and how excessive use of it within an extremely short time frame can induce a similar physical drawback... Kagutsuchi, being the Shape Transformation to Amaterasu's Nature Transformation, allows Sasuke to determine the shape, range, 'n scope of that Enton and avoid that. That is how I have come to understand it.
 * The diameter of that circular barricade of Enton that Sasuke created with Amaterasu was not that tiny. There was at least a six foot radius between the Uchiha siblings, and the black flames. The examples of Enton being manipulated around his person with Kagutsuchi have all been extremely close to him. But, again, that is not because Kagutsuchi has to be creating the black flames from his body.
 * It's not that either Kagutsuchi, or Amaterasu are being used to place the orb of Enton in his Susanoo's secondary right arm, the ability to create and manipulate Enton are being made manifest through his Susanoo. That is it's ability, that's why we've been agreeing even before Susanoo Kagutsuchi's "official" debut that the orb of Enton is a secondary source of the black flames, as opposed to him glaring at it's palm to put it there.
 * As I mentioned before, this situation is starting to mimic the fandom's issue with Naruto kneading Rasengan with a single hand. Nobody's said anything about Kagutsuchi creating these black flames. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 18:35, March 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * ... Some input from the rest of you lurking jerks would be appreciated! Seelentau, Yatagarasu-Kagutsuchi, and I are starting to get sick of eachother. ;D —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 18:45, March 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Na, I'm not. It's just very, very hard to follow those discussions and the problem at hand. That's why I tend to retreat early and leave the discussing to you guys ^^' Seelentau 愛議 19:10, March 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Lol, I know, man. I'm just messin' around. :p —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 20:34, March 25, 2014 (UTC)

Nonsense SaiST... Kagatsuchi doesn't only control black flames, it creates them also. That's especially obvious when he had only his right Mangekyou activated while doing so. You are obviously wrong. Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi doesn't only add shape to Amaterasu, it allows the user to create black flames from other parts than just the eyes as well.--Elveonora (talk) 19:25, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * You are using the example of Kagutsuchi from 641, correct? We are not able to see what eye(s) Sasuke's using on the first panel of that page as the Enton first springs up; just as we couldn't see as he made the Kokuen no Tate at the Kage Summit, or the "flexible sword" in Chapter 632. It isn't until the second panel that we see him using his right eye to adjust the chakra ratio of the Enton as he announced in the prior page. He wasn't creating flames, he was manipulating them from that point on, as the ocular power of his right eye is intended to do. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 19:39, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * The thing is, if he would've castes the flames with his left eye, they would've burnt Naruto or Sasuke's hands, because then it would've been Amaterasu. Seelentau 愛議 19:42, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not sure what point you're making here, I'm sorry. If you're implying that Sasuke would have had to focus on his or Naruto's hand with Amaterasu, then that's the very misconception that I'm trying to dispel with my explanation of Kagutsuchi's—Shape Transformation's involvement. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 19:46, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * What I'm saying is that if he would've casted the flames with his left eye, he would've used Amaterasu and since Amaterasu burns where the user is looking at, he would've burned the back of his left hand (or Naruto, if not aimed carefully). You can't cast Amaterasu behind something solid like a hand. Seelentau 愛議 19:59, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Right, so I understood you correctly. That's what I'm trying to say that Kagutsuchi, when used in conjunction with Amaterasu, circumvents; allows it to be wielded more freely like most other Nature Releases. There is no need for a focal point, because Kagutsuchi's Shape Transformation is being used to determine the range, scope 'n such of the Enton that's being materialized with Sasuke's left eye; that's what Shape Transformation does. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 20:06, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

Just... Taking a quick step back to make absolutely sure: You guys do realize I'm talking about these two ocular powers being used together, right? I'm not saying Amaterasu alone is being used to light up Susanoo's rib cage, or put black flames in Sasuke's hands... Yikes. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 20:11, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes. So you say Kagutsuchi is just the ability to change the form of chakra? Seelentau 愛議 20:24, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yussir. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 20:26, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * And Sasuke needs a special technique while almost every other shinobi does not? Seelentau 愛議 20:28, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

Nice straw-man there. So at first you imply that he activated left Mangekyou off-panel, turned it off just for teh lulz and then used the right one? That's not used "together" in my book--Elveonora (talk) 20:31, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, Seelentau. A distinct ocular power that allows Shape Transformation to be applied to Amaterasu's black flames specifically. There's no other means of doing so.


 * Elveonora, you're clearly misunderstanding me. I've been trying to explain how Amaterasu is involved when we see Sasuke suddenly springing up Enton around his immediate person. Once the flame is present, Kagutsuchi is all that's needed to manipulate it from that point on, because that's all it does. Why do you think Sasuke would still need his left eye open in the example from 641 under these circumstances? —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 20:40, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * And a nature transformation-technique - which is implied by the Enton: - that doesn't release a nature, but changes chakra's form is... normal? Seelentau 愛議 20:43, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, it is not normal, Seelentau. A Nature Release that is performed through the eyes in itself is peculiar. Kagutsuchi being prefixed with Enton is precisely because it is used to exert that degree of control over the prior established Nature Transformation, that can "normally" only be created from point to point concentration of chakra through glaring. It's kind of a big deal because it is the only way to exert that kind of control over Amaterasu's flames. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 20:54, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * But still, we have a Nature Release: X-technique which doesn't actually release a nature...? Seelentau 愛議 21:33, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * The "technique" in question is the very act of Shape Manipulation, Seelentau. Kagutsuchi is Keitai Henka; intended for a variety of results, not for specific shapes like a giant fireball, or the barrier of spikes alone as it was first incorrectly defined here on this wiki. I can see the point of being prefixed with Enton as it is the only means of utilizing that control over Amaterasu's black flames. Do you not? —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 21:57, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

I understand well and I disagree. It's very unlikely to be true. Doesn't make sense for him to use Amaterasu off-panel, close left eye and then use Kagatsuchi.--Elveonora (talk) 23:37, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Correction: Use Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi in unison to create the Enton on his hand, then continue to use Kagutsuchi to carry out what Sasuke mentioned on the prior page.


 * You haven't given me a reason as to why Sasuke would need to have his left eye remain open under those circumstances. There's an obvious need for him to continue utilizing his right eye from that point on to manipulate the flames for the combination attack with Naruto. We've witnessed Mangekyō Sharingan users closing one of their eyes when focus has gone into casting the ocular power in the other, so what exactly makes this particular case an exception? How is this—despite fitting within the canonical restraints of the ocular powers detailed to us thus far—any more unlikely than giving Kagutsuchi another, unspecified ability? —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 01:12, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Aren't you giving Kagutsuchi an ability that it was never stated to have, too? Otherwise, I still don't get how form manipulation can enable Sasuke to cast Amaterasu from his hands... Seelentau 愛議 09:04, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * @SaiST, So you say it allows him to cast Amaterasu off-panel without side-effects like bleeding or blurred vision and it just appears in his hand. Makes perfect sense brah. Okay, so just to make sure I get you:
 * Sasuke uses both left and right eye (left to create the black flames and the right to add shape)
 * his left eye just doesn't bleed because "added shape prevents bleeding" or whatever
 * he just uses and then closes the left eye off-panel each time to confuse us, it definitely doesn't mean there's no left eye involved, you must be right
 * it somehow magically allows him to use black flames from other body parts.


 * No, just no. Seel's explanation or his German buddy's make the most sense. Anyway, I think we should drop it one way or another, it's not like we would change Amaterasu to Blaze Release without lots of protest anyway--Elveonora (talk) 10:46, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, I did that in the German wiki and no one protested... probably because in Germany, no one cares about the Wiki that much :( Seelentau 愛議 10:52, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Seelentau, it isn't really being cast from his hands. The misconception that Enton is being created from his other parts of his body is what I've been arguing against all this time. When chakra is channeled around the Shinobi's immediate area to forge encampments with Suiton, Doton, or Mokuton, what do you attribute that to? What does Shape Transformation accomplish beyond turning chakra into malleable tools? It allows the caster to determine the range, and scope of the kneaded chakra.


 * Elveonora, the only point you seemed to take any proper regard of(after I had to go out of my way to verify) is that Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi are used in unison. You do not seem to understand, or care why I surmised that Amaterasu(and Kakashi's Kamui, with consecutive uses) induces that kind of physical trauma, and why Kagutsuchi's involvement would bypass that. You still have not given me any valid reasoning as to why Sasuke would need to keep his left eye open in your single example from 641, and have come off as nothing more than condescending in response to my queries.


 * Moreover, if you guys are so confident that Kagutsuchi is being used to create Enton, why is it that C attributes the ignition of the black flames upon Susanoo's rib cage as Shape Transformation, rather than Nature Transformation? —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 11:21, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * If he didn't cast it from his hands, then explain how he could cast Amaterasu through his hands, please. As I said, you can't cast Amaterasu through solid objects. Seelentau 愛議 11:33, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Jesus Christ. Seelentau, I got love for you, but you've got me going in circles here. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 11:35, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * I could say the same to you, though. :D Seelentau 愛議 11:36, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * I've given my reasoning to that question more than fives times in this topic already. I am not arguing that Sasuke is glaring at his hand, or "through" it to wield the Enton as we saw it in 641. My point is that Kagutsuchi—Shape Transformation—is being used alongside Amaterasu's Nature Transformation to produce that result. Now, if we continue this looping debate, you'd be asking how Shape Transformation can allow that to happen, in which case I'd be repeating what I mentioned to you in my earlier post. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 11:54, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hm, maybe I'm really too dense to get it right now. >.< Seelentau 愛議 11:58, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

Why doesn't it burn his hand then?--Elveonora (talk) 11:59, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120817230719/konohalibrary/images/0/09/Chapter_585,_page_5.png

Here we can see Sasuke and Itachi casting Amaterasu at their immediate range, it's 2 meters at most. I still don't get the explanation of Kagutsuchi circumventing the strain of the eye casting Amaterasu. No matter at what range or how, this bleeding eye is attributed to the usage of Amaterasu. If Sasuke used Amaterasu, he always clearly showed that, focusing his left bleeding eye on something, while, when using Kagutsuchi, flames appeared from nowhere in the same panel of him saying Kagutsuchi, and no strain was shown for his eyes. Obviously, Kishimoto would've made it far more clear, if Sasuke explicitly would need to cast Amaterasu. Sasuke is more skilled with the flames than Itachi, hence he could cast them at himself, C stating that is due to his control of the flames, which is attributed to Kagutsuchi.--Yatagarasu-Kagutsuchi (talk) 14:40, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * 2 meters, or "at least a six foot radius" is not their immediate range. You guys are talking about springing up Enton from Sasuke's body; his hands, or the rib cage of Susanoo that's right next to him. If you wanted to use an example of an extremely close-range Amaterasu, it would have been better to use the instance of Itachi incinerating his own summoned crow that was perched on his shoulder in Chapter 552, or the way Sasuke depicted his older brother using the ocular power on Danzō within his Genjutsu in Chapter 578.


 * But it's not the distance that I'm trying to stress here, it's the necessity of a focal point in which to ignite the Enton when Amaterasu is used by itself. We all agree that Amaterasu is a very strenuous ocular power, to the point that it induces that ocular bleeding; but what causes that strain? What caused Kakashi's application of Kamui to reduce him to a similar state after consecutive uses?


 * While you may say that Kishimoto would have gone out of his way to actually show Amaterasu's eye in use, I'm of the opinion that it's one of those things that he doesn't always have to hold your hand for. Just as we don't always have to see Naruto in the middle of kneading a Rasengan with a Kage Bunshin by his side, we don't have to see Sasuke using these two ocular powers in unison to produce these results; especially when they are performed this fast. The manner in which these ocular powers function has already been detailed to us, what you guys are suggesting is that Kagutsuchi also handles Nature Transformation, when all that has been attributed to the ocular power of his right Mangekyō Sharingan is the Shape Transformation that is created by the left's Nature Transformation; that's what was detailed to us in Chapters 463 & 464. The only instances in which we've been clearly able to see Sasuke using his right eye alone—one of which Elveonora has been unsuccessfully attempting to use as evidence of Kagutsuchi's Nature Transformation—has been when these black flames were already present around him. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 16:26, March 27, 2014 (UTC)


 * But you fail to see, that Amaterasu is in need of this focal point to be cast. If you say that Kagutsuchi is mere shape Transformation, Sasuke can't just summon those flames while only using Enton: Kagutsuchi. You suggest that Sasuke somehow combines the Amaterasu with Kagutsuchi to use them synchronous, but at the same time undermine the actual characteristics of Amaterasu. You say that, when somhow combinating Kagutsuchi with Amaterasu, Sasuke manages to crate a flame in his hand while his eyes are focusing in another direction, but I lack to see the facts supporting your claim; it's your mere belief which you acknowledge as the most logical. For me, it's logical, that the one who has mastered an element (Enton) can cast the flames by more than one way, putting him above Itachi. For me, it's logical that Sasuke in no way can use Amaterasu, whether combined with Kagutsuchi or not, to create flames at a point he's not aiming for. That's the point where you contradict yourself. If Kagutsuchi is mere shape Transformation, the flame must be created via Amaterasu, and thus, is in need of a focal point, but that's obviously isn't the case. You are under the assumption of a possible interaction of both techniques, but at the same time forget the conditions which Amaterasu needs. Amaterasu can't be cast out of the users focal point, for example in his hand, because Kagutsuchi, by your own claim, can't interact as it's mere shape manipulation. Mere shape manipulation means, that it's the task of Amaterasu to cast the flame. Btw. we don't know whether Kagutsuchi casts the flame or whether Sasuke can just somehow summon the flam out of nothing before doing shape manipulation. The times where Sasuke uses the flames through Enton: Kagutsuchi completely differ from the usage of Amaterasu, and there is no hint that Sasuke actually insists on Amaterasu before using Enton. C merely stated what he's seen. He has seen Sasuke casting the flame with Amaterasu, and later controlling it with the right eye. He in no way knew the full potential of the Enton nature which Sasuke mastered over the time to be able to give an outright explanation of Enton. --Yatagarasu-Kagutsuchi (talk) 19:31, March 27, 2014 (UTC)


 * C should not have any way of knowing what Sasuke's truly capable of with Enton, but his description is the only one that's been given to us concerning Sasuke's ocular powers thus far, and no other official description has arisen to conflict with it.


 * You only see a "contradiction" in this explanation because you are not acknowledging why I've been stressing Shape Transformation's purpose in all of this. Rather than make some attempt to invalidate this concept—this proposition of Kagutsuchi's involvement in allowing Amaterasu's Nature Transformation to be used without it's focal point—I've been constantly asked how Shape Transformation alone makes that possible, and given no reply when I've expressly asked how chakra is able to be channeled for encampment Ninjutsu featured from other Nature Release classes; how Shape Transformation is detrimental to that process in determining the range and scope of the kneaded chakra.


 * That, and I'm still not being given an appropriate answer as to why C determines Sasuke's Kokuen no Tate—the sudden ignition of Enton upon his Susanoo's rib cage—as "merely" Shape Transformation, when no apparent shape, or fixation is being applied to the black flames. If you are under the impression that Kagutsuchi is being used to actually create that Enton upon Susanoo's rib cage, why is it only identified as Shape Transformation? Making sense of that conundrum alone will (hopefully)serve to help everyone engaged in this discussion better understand why I'm talking about Kagutsuchi's cooperative role in Amaterasu's creation of the nature we're discussing.


 * I'll be more than happy to continue this discussion once I finally start getting answers to the questions I keep throwing in here, as I'm growing weary of redundantly making these attempts to extrapolate what we officially know about the way Kagutsuchi and Shape Transformation functions, and having it unrequited on the opposing side of the argument. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 21:37, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

SaiST. can you please once again summarize what you define Blaze Release to be and tell us if you think Amaterasu is also Blaze?--Elveonora (talk) 11:27, March 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * The manner in which I define Amaterasu and Blaze Release has not changed since the revised definition I presented in my 2nd post in this topic, and the nearly ten instances I've mentioned them since. Why should I have to do that once more just to have you ignore half of it again? -_- —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 17:49, March 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Great. So I get it that Kagatsuchi is to Amaterasu what Lightning Release: Rasengan would be to Chidori, more or less right? But I must ask, why is an eye (the right one) needed to add shape manipulation to a nature? Why can't he just cast Amaterasu with the left eye and add shape manipulation at once without using the right?--Elveonora (talk) 18:07, March 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Great, more questions. Still not being given answers to those I presented.
 * |"So you say Kagutsuchi is just the ability to change the form of chakra?" -Seelentau
 * |"Yussir" -SaiST
 * |"And Sasuke needs a special technique while almost every other shinobi does not?" -Seelentau
 * |"Yes, Seelentau. A distinct ocular power that allows Shape Transformation to be applied to Amaterasu's black flames specifically. There's no other means of doing so." -SaiST
 * |"And a nature transformation-technique - which is implied by the Enton: - that doesn't release a nature, but changes chakra's form is... normal?" -Seelentau
 * |"No, it is not normal, Seelentau. A Nature Release that is performed through the eyes in itself is peculiar. Kagutsuchi being prefixed with Enton is precisely because it is used to exert that degree of control over the prior established Nature Transformation, that can "normally" only be created from point to point concentration of chakra through glaring. It's kind of a big deal because it is the only way to exert that kind of control over Amaterasu's flames." -SaiST
 * |"But still, we have a Nature Release: X-technique which doesn't actually release a nature...?" -Seelentau
 * |"The "technique" in question is the very act of Shape Manipulation, Seelentau. Kagutsuchi is Keitai Henka; intended for a variety of results, not for specific shapes like a giant fireball, or the barrier of spikes alone as it was first incorrectly defined here on this wiki. I can see the point of being prefixed with Enton as it is the only means of utilizing that control over Amaterasu's black flames. Do you not?" -SaiST
 * Absolutely wonderful exchange we're having here. I'm done. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 19:27, March 28, 2014 (UTC)

Chill bro, I get your point now. But I'm not so sure as you are. So you say Kagatsuchi has "blaze release" prefix because it can add shape to the black flames rather than being an elemental technique itself. But I don't see why an eye should be able to add shape to black flames alone what about Lightning Release: Kagatsuchi if Kagatsuchi is only adding shape with right eye? It's all too farfetched--Elveonora (talk) 19:53, March 28, 2014 (UTC)

So Sasuke uses an Enton technique to control and shape Enton techniques? Kagutsuchi has, as you said, the prefix "Enton". So why would there be a separate elemental technique which is the source of pure shape manipulation of the flames of that exact element, which, however, can only be cast by another technique and eye? Kagutsuchi is based on Enton, hence Enton: Kagutsuchi, but why would you need an Enton technique to do this? Why would Amaterasu be the only source of these black flames, which, as we all agree, are a part of a whole nature? So ultimately, there is only one technique which is the source of this Blaze Release and only one technique of the same element, which does nothing but shaping them? Why wouldn't we assume that Sasuke can evoke those flames from nowhere and then using Kagutsuchi to shape those flames? We know the following characteristics, which are partially explained by various characters; Amaterasu creates the flames where the user's focal point lies (Zetsu's and others statement), each usage thus far of Amaterasu strains your eye up to the point that it bleeds. And now, for some unknown reason, Kagutsuchi influences the usage of the Amaterasu already before the flame appears, as it makes the flame appear within Sasuke's reach, partially in an already shaped form and for some unknown trick makes the disadvantages of Amaterasu vanish? No matter of what Sasuke uses, an Enton blade which he suddenly holds in his hand or an arrow of Susanoo, is the creation of Amaterasu, which was influenced by Kagutsuchi coincidently, what is the reason for the flame appearing within Sasuke's reach, shaped and without Amaterasu's disadvantages? I'm sorry, it's not easy to refute your points, as they are largely based on your interpretation.--Yatagarasu-Kagutsuchi (talk) 17:08, March 31, 2014 (UTC)