Talk:Sage Transformation

Databook stuff
From the databook:
 * Having found out that the origin of Jugo's power was the Ryuchido, Orochimaru concluded that the Curse Seal's natural shape was "Senjutsu".
 * In Jugo's village, the state after invoking the power of Senjutsu is referred to as "Sage Transformation".

• Seelentau 愛 議 02:26, July 13, 2015 (UTC)

WTF is "natural shape" supposed to mean? Natural state? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:39, July 13, 2015 (UTC)
 * The word used there is 正体 shōtai, meaning "natural shape;  one's true colors;  one's true colours;  true character;  identity;  true identity". • Seelentau 愛 議 02:59, July 13, 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't really understand it.--Elve Talk Page 13:25, July 13, 2015 (UTC)
 * It's basically what the manga told us: Orochimaru found out that Jugo's power comes from the Dragon Earth Cave and concluded that it nothing but Senjutsu. The Curse Seal is basically artifical Senjutsu, with the Sage Transformation being a "wild" version of the Sage Mode. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:30, July 13, 2015 (UTC)

Oh, so nothing new then. If you have Jugo Clan's body, you transform into that instead of ordinary Sage Mode, right?--Elve Talk Page 13:42, July 13, 2015 (UTC)
 * If you can't control it, yes. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:44, July 13, 2015 (UTC)

Sage Transformation is not Sage Mode
The Databook says it gives the user the ability to use Senjutsu, but doing Senjutsu alone is not what Sage Mode is. We see clear, defined differences between the two transformations (from power output, to appearance, to drawbacks and everything). Classifying Sage Transformation as Sage Mode is just downright dishonest and misleading.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 02:58, May 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * Currently, I do not have a position in this Sage Mode/Transformation debacle, however, this was discussed here, with Tau claiming the databook affirmed the exact opposite of what you are saying and thus both techniques are the same (with him making the respective edit), and this brought up again by you after the discourse died off, and now you are reviving it once more. From re-reading the previous consultation, I am curious, since again, I haven't taken a side: what new evidence did you encounter from the last time that refutes Tau's claim? 06:40, May 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * Basically the usage between the two techniques within the manga itself. Sage Transformation was always shown to be woefully inferior to Sage Mode itself, which required intense training to achieve. Sage Transformation doesn't share any traits at all with Sage Mode itself, it doesn't balance the three energies, it doesn't have the 'turn into an stone animal if you fail to balance the energies', and basically was introduced as the lesser of the two transformations. Being classified as a Senjutsu does not make it a Sage Mode transformation, much like being classified as a dojutsu doesn't make the Rinnegan, Byakugan, and Sharingan the same thing. In essence, the techniques have shown wild differences, and a throw away comment from Jugo, who had never seen Sage Mode, shouldn't be classified as gospel.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 08:08, May 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * SupperSaltyMan in a nutshell: 'I don't like what the manga and databooks say, so I'm gonna ignore those and invent my own headcanon and force it onto others' What the hell don't you understand? If those with Jugo's KKG enter Sage Mode, their bodies undergo Sage Transformation. Look, there's a bunch (or at least there was, now there's just Jugo that we know of and those with his power) of people, a clan that has 2 special powers. 1st is that their bodies passively absorb natural energy. 2nd is that they have some fancy bodily fluids, which react to natural energy. So when they go Sage Mode, Sage Transformation happens as a side effect of those fluids. Also it has been stated literally nowhere that Sage Transformation is inferior to Sage Mode... it can't be, because Sage Transformation IS Sage Mode and more, if anything, it's superior. How great of a buff Senjutsu is depends on a user's strength of his/her chakra, meaning a weak individual reaps lesser benefits from Senjutsu, compared to a stronger individual.--Elve Talk Page 09:28, May 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * I mean you're right, Sage Mode is not the same thing as Sage Transformation. Sage Transformation is a method to attain Sage Mode. That's why the articles haven't been merged. But there are still flaws in your arguments: If we go by the "weaker version isn't the same", then Konohamaru's Rasengan during the Pain invasion would be a different jutsu than Naruto's Rasengan. Also, you keep ignoring that there's not always just one set way to attain something: Sasuke got his Mangekyo Sharingan because he realised Itachi was a good guy, not because he watched him die, like Obito did with Rin. And last but not least, you throw in things you can't possibly know, like "Jugo, who had never seen Sage Mode". So overall, your argument is pretty weak. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:59, May 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * @SuperSaiyaMan: That looks like the exact same line of reasoning you had last time. Reiterating yourself is not going to strengthen your case.
 * @Elveonora: Come now, we don’t need to resort to name-calling.
 * And it’s also evident from the demarcation in your arguments that the superiority/inferiority between the techniques can be subjective. They both have advantages and disadvantages. 16:58, May 20, 2018 (UTC)