Talk:Tengai Shinsei

Hm...
Isn't it a bit early to add Susanoo as a Parent Technique? All he did was use it to make three hand seals at once. o3o Skitts (talk) 19:39, October 27, 2011 (UTC)

Isnt this Just a Banshō Ten'in,im kinda Confushed?!--
 * It could very well be. But because its use isn't all that clear (at least in my opinion) it could just as easily not be it.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 20:22, October 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * You mean Chibaku Tensei--Cmcwiki (talk) 20:56, October 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * Chibaku Tensei draws things to it. This is at least not Chibaku Tensei that much is clear.Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 21:14, October 27, 2011 (UTC)

This is a Chibaku Tensei! You can see it in the last page of the chapter 560! There is a huge hole behind the meteorite: the place where Madara took soil to make his Chibaku Tensei in the same way Nagato used to against the Fox, even if he didn't create that strange black sphere. I'll wait for your answers!--31.190.246.241 (talk) 13:26, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * That "hole", is the sky...--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 13:30, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

Sage of Six Paths
Kabuto/Muu said something along the lines that that technique was the power of the Sage. Shouldn't the Sage be added as a user as well? Darksusanoo (talk) 20:59, October 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * That's not what he meant. He's saying that it was the level of destructive power the Sage was capable of using.--Deva 27 21:01, October 27, 2011 (UTC)

We'll have to wait for the Raws to be sure, but I think he was speaking of his Rinnegan usage. Whether or not that means this tech. I don't know. Skitts (talk) 21:07, October 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * What Deva says is right still. i don't think we need raws for that.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 21:14, October 27, 2011 (UTC)

Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan Icon
Although the icon in the Classification section of the Infobox should really be of Madara's Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan, whenever I attempt to alter it to reflect this, the icon fails to appear regardless of the spelling used. Can someone spread some light on this? Blackstar1 (talk) 21:12, October 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * I think SimAnt only made it possible to add the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan to character's infoboxes not techniques O.o? I might be wrong though...Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 21:14, October 27, 2011 (UTC)

I was trying to do this as well. I'm assuming it only works in the Kekkai Genkai section of character infoboxes because there haven't been any EMS specific techniques as of yet. Even this, while being possible, seems to be rooted in the Rinnegan. Skitts (talk) 21:15, October 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * @Cerez365: That definitely seems possible, seeing how as Skitts points out, this is the first time it has actually been necessary. Maybe someone should get in contact with him.
 * @Skitts: Although it's rooted in the Rinnegan, with at the very least Madara's Susanoo originating from his Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan, it should be included anyway. Blackstar1 (talk) 21:26, October 27, 2011 (UTC)

Fixed. S im A nt 23:10, October 27, 2011 (UTC)

Related Techs.
If we're going to have Banshō Ten'in in it, we might as well have Chibaku Tensei as well, since it is much more related to it. Skitts (talk) 22:01, October 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * How's this related to CT? There's no black orb and no gravity pull. It's just a meteor, probably drawn in by Banshō Ten'in. Seelentau 愛議 22:37, October 27, 2011 (UTC)

How could it be Bansho Ten'in? Everyone says that its obvious gravity is acting on it. Well duh. It's a giant meteor in the sky. However, I double-checked, and there was never any indication of Madara guiding it at all. He kept his arms to the side the entire time. Skitts (talk) 23:07, October 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * That's why I said probably. In the end, we're both wrong, since we all know nothing more than what we've seen. I'm removing BT, alright? Seelentau 愛議 23:17, October 27, 2011 (UTC)

We're not actually saying that it is Bansho Ten'in or even a variation of it, at least not at this point, but the similarities between the techniques are undeniable. Although Madara may not guide either of the meteoroids throughout the duration, he certainly would have had to use some sort of attractive force to at least begin their descent, especially considering they fall at an angle towards a very specific location. Blackstar1 (talk) 23:19, October 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * But we're stating it as a related technique, which is obviously not true. Why might think that it's true, but we don't have any real proof. Could be a special Ninjutsu or so... Seelentau 愛議 23:25, October 27, 2011 (UTC)

There seems to be some misinterpretation over what actually constitutes as a related technique, either on my end or yours. My impression is that the relationship between "parent" and "derived" techniques, are that the former makes the latter possible and that this has been very clearly defined, either through statement or demonstration in a legitimate source. "Related" techniques on the other hand, are ones that although the relationship between them hasn't been made clear (if there even is one), share numerous similarities with each other through one or more areas, such as: operation, application, effect, etc. Blackstar1 (talk) 23:37, October 27, 2011 (UTC)

Kay. Then how is this related to either, BT or CT? Seelentau 愛議 00:42, October 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * Both are very powerful pulls. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:42, October 28, 2011 (UTC)

Nagato?
It just me or Nagato uses this jutsu here--thedasilva1 (talk) 13:26, 29 Octuber 2011 (UTC)
 * Recently I'm starting to think that we should just chalk this up to a Banshō Ten'in. Nagato did in fact do something similar.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 18:08, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't do that yet. Madara used hand-seals. BT doesn't require hand-seals. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:10, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * Maybe in order to create a bigger meteorite, you need to perform the hand seals (sorry for my english, I'm spanish) --thedasilva1 (talk) 13:45, 29 Octuber 2011 (UTC)
 * BT doesn't create things, it just attracts them. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:23, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

BT attracts things towards the user, CT attracts things towards the black gravitational sphere that's created. Madara didn't do either of those, simply weaved three hand seals. Skitts (talk) 18:25, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

I think he used hand seals to summon those meteorites. Then like Nagato, he pulled them down to earth. This is Madara we are talking about, its easy to say those hand seals could be for MAKING the meteorites and Using Bansho Tenin he pulled them down to the ground. Check the hand seal snake in the combo, thats a hint it seems. 72.66.90.246 (talk) 15:15, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

The flaw with the thought that it was Bansho Ten'in pulling them down is that Madara kept his arms at his sides the entire time. They're giant rocks in the sky, they don't exactly need assistance in falling. Skitts (talk) 16:40, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

Shouldn't Nagato also be listed as the user then since there is no objection? 119.154.4.36 (talk) 15:39, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

There is objection because things Madara did don't match things Nagato did. Madara had to use Susanoo to weave seals. Nagato didn't need seals to use BT. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:47, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

Nagato created the sphere using his Chibaku Tensei. Madara either pulled down the Meteorite from Heavens or summoned it himself. --Elveonora (talk) 16:23, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

Should we put a note in the trivia that Nagato did something similar but didn't weave any handsigns? 119.154.23.70 (talk) 13:11, March 27, 2012 (UTC)

No, because it was not similar. --Elveonora (talk) 14:00, March 27, 2012 (UTC)

Whats the difference? One weaved hand signs the other didn't. One used Susanoo the other didn't. Both are Rinnegan users. The difference in size is another factor. I just said that the use of Nagato be stated. Look at the Secret Technique: Insect Gathering page, it notes the difference yet the similarity why can't we do the same just stating that it is different because of the lack of handseals etc. 119.154.18.174 (talk) 16:32, March 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes. Saying alone that one required hand seals while Nagato was able to bring something down from the sky without the use of hand seals is more than enough to say they're separate techniques. And as for Muta's use of an anime-only technique, now that I think about it, that's speculation and as such shouldn't be there.-Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 17:23, March 27, 2012 (UTC)

Izanagi
Are you sure that, isn't a complete Izanagi? Madara had the Rin'nengan, so he could use that technique without to lose an eyes and make appear e huge piece of rock like that from nothing...

Izanagi is used to escape death. Tobi has a 'complete' Izanagi, which still does the same thing as the incomplete version, albeit for a longer period of time. And we have no indication that a Rinnegan user using Izanagi is immune to its eye-sealing effects. Skitts (talk) 22:53, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

You mean Creation of All Things? S im A nt 22:55, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

Izanagi can make illusion into reality and reality into illusion. i think the guy above is asking if Madara used Izanagi to create the Meteorites. --Elveonora (talk) 17:09, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

Here's the thing though. He's saying that it could be a "complete" form of Izanagi. Tobi already had the complete Izanagi, and it still functioned exactly the same as Danzo's incomplete one, just for a longer duration per eye. I see nothing indicating this to be Izanagi. Skitts (talk) 19:16, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

I think too its a complete Izanagi ... he used EMS Susanoo and Rinnegan to summon those meteorites. It was not a summoning technique and it was not Banshō Ten'in as well. The meteorite appeared "too fast" that it looked more like a genjutsu, thats why I support Izanagi stuff as well. --Elveonora (talk) 19:20, November 7, 2011 (UTC)

Attributes
It's commonly assumed that this technique involves the Rinnegan and Mangekyo Sharingan. However, in chapter 588, the clones were unable to absorb Ohnoki's Jinton properly because of the Susanoo. Doesn't this suggest that the Susanoo actually does not gain Rinnegan powers by itself, and those powers don't overlap? Because the reasoning behind it being a Rinnegan power is that the powers overlap and Madara cast his jutsu "through" Susanoo somehow. But what happened with the Mokuton clones challenges the idea that the two powers overlap.

Basically, the Rinnegan powers are still cast from the host body [Madara] and the Susanoo doesn't gain those powers, but instead hinders them. Just as how it hindered Gakido, I would assume the other powers would similarly be hindered, and that it's not actually possible to use such jutsu "through" the Susanoo. Wreiad (talk) 00:07, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

Not quite. Madara wasn't able to absorb that Jinton attack because the clones had Susanoo up. Meaning, there was a barrier between the clones and the attack. The clones would need to have dispersed Susanoo if they wanted to absorb the technique. The attack was simply faster than he could deactivate Susanoo and activate the chakra absorption. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:14, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

No Rinnegan involved
So, Madara awakened his Rinnegan shortly before his life span ended, right? Do you really think he used this technique with such a fragile, old body and before giving Nagato the Rinnegan? I don't think so, that's why I don't think the Rinnegan is involved in creating those meteors. Seelentau 愛議 18:43, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm still not sure. How did he in that same fragile state, manage to seal an passage way after they found Obito?--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 13:08, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't know, but do you think he used the technique in his cave? He said it was long since he saw such a picture, after the meteorites crashed down on the alliance. Seelentau 愛議 13:16, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * I really don't know how it works with Madara using all these techniques and all. Maybe we should just leave it as is and hopefully wait for databook clarification.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 13:19, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think what he said about seeing such a picture is about using this technique, but rather seeing a devastated battlefield, or devastating a battlefield himself, regardless of how he did it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 13:20, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Could be, yes. That still leaves open how or rather why he would use such a technique in his old state. He couldn't use it after giving Nagato the Rinnegan, of course. Thus there's only a short time when he could've used it and in that time he was near death and had better things to do, like cultivating Zetsu and keeping himself alive. I really don't think this is a Rinnegan technique, guys. Seelentau 愛議 13:25, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

You're assuming he used the technique before. It could be that when Madara used this against the Fourth Division, it was the first time he used the technique. It was the first time he used Hashirama's Wood Release, at least to that extent. Why not the same with the meteorites? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 13:43, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, why not... okay, then just leave the Rinnegan in the article. Seelentau 愛議 13:50, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Who told you he created a meteorite at first? From what I get, he used the yin-yang release to summon them, it might have been the boulder he blocked the exit with. I know it's not a forum, but there's a high possibility of it be the "creation of all things/complete Izanagi" or something and this being just an application of it. I remember Kabuto commenting on Madara being a fragment of Sage's power--Elveonora (talk) 01:27, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Nagato's rock
It's kind of embarrassing ('-') but the anime actually made it clearer. Was I the only one that missed the water coming off the rock when Nagato used it in chapter 549 o.O"--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 16:17, January 31, 2013 (UTC)


 * What water? --X29 16:27, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, you have missed it, but what's the point of this topic? You can inform everyone on ur profile or something :P--Elveonora (talk) 16:29, January 31, 2013 (UTC)


 * Check the anime, then read the chapter. You can actually see water falling off the rock in the manga, it's just that I never noticed until it was animated. This is kind ain response to the topic of listing Nagato as a user of the technique Madara used, putting it to bed, as it were.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 16:31, January 31, 2013 (UTC)


 * ........... Seriously? Nagato uses the Jutsu that brings down not one, but two gigantic meteors from the skies? Are you serious, Cerez, my man (Deidara reference)? --X29 16:42, January 31, 2013 (UTC)

Title
Wasn't this "Meteorite Technique" 50 minutes ago?

"Shattered Heaven"?


 * Check the history....and sign your comments. --OmegaRasengan (talk)

Alright, better question. Where did the title "Shattered Heaven" come from? Eugar (talk) 22:25, February 26, 2013 (UTC)

Storm 3 Game Cards --Questionaredude (talk) 22:29, February 26, 2013 (UTC)

Real Power
Did we need to mention in the article that the tremour sensed even in the HQ is just the power of one Meteor because the other was already lighted? 200.223.200.10 (talk) 18:28, February 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Not really, no. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:50, February 24, 2013 (UTC)

Japanese name
It is called Tengai Shinsei, the Kanji are 天外 (Heavens Outside) or 天涯 (Heavens Horizon) and 新生 (Rebirth) or 新星 (New Star) or maybe 神聖 (Holiness) or 神性 (Divinity). The English ingame name is Heavens Concealed. Seelentau 愛議 15:02, March 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * It could be 天来 Tenrai, too. This means 'Heavenly'. The sound is not clear enough to really be sure... Seelentau 愛議 15:23, March 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * I saw a video of Madara and Hashirama's battle on a Japanese website, nicovideo.com, and one comment said "天涯神征." --Dethklok91 (talk) 21:15, March 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Could you link me that video? Seelentau 愛議 22:14, March 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * nvm, I found it, the Kanji are indeed 天涯神征 Tengai Shinsei, literally translating to Heavens Horizon God Subjugation. Seelentau 愛議 22:37, March 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Would Tengai be translated like that or as "skyline" or even just as "horizon"? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:43, March 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Horizon it is, but I don't know... doesn't sound it a bit strange? The Japanese name reminds me of the Shinra Tensei issue, maybe we should leave this untranslated, too. Seelentau 愛議 22:47, March 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, is that even official enough? I mean, it's from a user comment... Seelentau 愛議 22:53, March 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * There's still a technical hope of an official source. When Madara appears in the character section of the official game site, we might get a screenshot of the technique with the name on it. That's how we got the kanji for some of UNS3 techniques so far. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:41, March 10, 2013 (UTC)

We should have stuck with meteorite technique .-. sounds less complex... what about Heavens Unfold?--Elveonora (talk) 15:44, March 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * The only problems are that I can't say for sure if it's Tenrai or Tengai and that I don't know the Kanji. We should use the ingame name rather than the TCG name, though. And why do you suggest 'Unfold'? 'Shinsei' has no such meaning. Seelentau 愛議 15:48, March 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * The weird thing is that it appears to have two in-game names. "Heaven Concealed" appears when Madara actually uses it in battle, and "Shattered Heaven" appears in the character selection screen when you select Madara. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:51, March 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * So what're we gonna do with this? Have you watched the video, Omni-kun? What do you think about the Japanese name? Seelentau 愛議 17:00, March 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * I heard it as "Tengai Shinsei". For now, I think we should stay with Shattered Heaven. The game gave us two names, but we technically have another source for Shattered Heaven in the form of the Bandai cards. Hopefully someone in Japan will also get the game early and post a video with the Japanese subtitles. Or maybe make one of those sites with game stuff I'm getting video game technique names from. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:03, March 3, 2013 (UTC)

The game comes out April 18 in Japan so you will have to wait a lil longer to find out (unless a demo covers it or something) and I know, I was just trying to be poetic and come up with a descriptive name for it :) I wouldn't doubt the English translation for now and trying to deduce the kanji from it and from romaji (reverse-translating? lol) is pointless, not to mention there's rarely a literal translation, perhaps the signs are completely different and it's a pun--Elveonora (talk) 17:12, March 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * For added fun, we could do the exact same thing we did with the other Deva Path techniques and just call it "Tengai Shensei".--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:55, March 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * Or, this could be a thing.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:10, April 21, 2013 (UTC)

I prefer the English name. Most of the jutsu are listed with english names. It's simply more consistent. Eugar (talk) 03:52, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

Well, sounds like a Rinnegan technique, while it may not be tho--Elveonora (talk) 10:04, April 27, 2013 (UTC)

I presume that's the only reason to keep the Japanese name then? Well, we never saw Nagato do this, did we? He has a jutsu that can form a similar mass of earth, not drop two meteors right on top of one another... though, to be fair, the MS Sharingan shouldn't be able to do that either.

Now enlighten me, why were the Rinnegan techniques given their Japanese names? Eugar (talk) 16:49, April 28, 2013 (UTC)

Pretty much because accurately translating them into English would result in particularly convoluted names. And not all Rinnegan techniques are left in Japanese, only the ones that fall into that category, which are mostly Deva Path techniques. Some of them might have also been left untranslated because they are partially derived from a certain Japanese idiom, might I'm not 100% sure on that one. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:07, April 28, 2013 (UTC)


 * By the Light is Tengai Shinsei really "Heavens Horizon God Subjugation"?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 22:48, May 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Nope. I managed to find the actual kanji for it. Current literal English is courtesy of Tangorin, via yours truly. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:18, May 9, 2013 (UTC)

What happened to "Shattered Heaven"? That doesn't sound convoluted.

Typing 'Tengai Shinsei' is annoying as hell. And it's not even LISTED with Rinnegan jutsu on that page. There's no definite proof it's Rinnegan-only either. Eugar (talk) 02:38, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Annoying how? It's a very short name, and it's not like it has macroned letters left and right. I see it in the Rinnegan page, and it makes much more sense for it to be Rinnegan than not. The fact he used it with with the Rinnegan active, both Kabuto and Madara were talking about the Rinnegan as the Sage's god-like power just before using it, everything points it to being a Rinnegan technique. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:47, June 9, 2013 (UTC)

Hand Signs
If they're simultaneous, shouldn't there be +, not arrows? MangekyoSasuke (talk) 22:46, April 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's supposed to be, but I don't know how it works here. I think it's fine to me as described in the article. — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 08:55, April 24, 2013 (UTC)

Why are we naming it based off Storm 3?
It's a video game, not the manga. Are we actually using names from non-canon sources just to fill in the absence of names in the canon? That doesn't make any logical sense, unless Kishimoto had a part to play in the naming of the technique in the game. --M4ND0N (talk) 02:39, July 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Until Kishimoto himself gives it a name, yeah. There are quite some techniques which get names from games. Go through Sasori's techniques for example. Anything used in any game is technically higher canon than any descriptive name we come up with. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:42, July 20, 2013 (UTC)

Different hand sign
This hand sign is not part of the 12 "normal" signs, and it is not listed in the article.

--Leitee (talk) 18:27, August 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * It looks like the bird seal but with the fingers on the outside. Seeing as it's that close to the bird seal, I say we just keep it and maybe point out in trivia that the ring, middle and extra are on the outside of the hand instead of boxed in like normal. Joshbl56  19:49, August 10, 2013 (UTC)

Nagato's usage?
I noticed Nagato used a similar technique in the chapter 549. After the clash between Itachi and Naruto, Nagato draws Naruto with the Banshö Ten'in and attempts to smash him with something that looks like a small meteorite. Although probably is a different jutsu or a lesser version of the Tengai Shinsei, I think it's worth to mention it in the trivia Adept-eX (talk) 01:03, September 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * Nagato used a boulder from river nearby. Madara either pulled one down from space or even created it from nothing--Elveonora (talk) 10:58, September 2, 2013 (UTC)

Mangekyo Sharingan
Madara mentioned that the landscape of this technique takes him back right after using it. Furthermore, it didn't awaken the Rinnegan until he was nearly dead from old age so shouldn't the Kekkei Genkai be Mangekyo Sharingan not Rinnegan? Cloudtheavenger (talk) 22:09, November 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * The point is, both Madara and Kabuto stated that it was the power of the Sage of the Six Paths, so it logically is a Rinnegan technique. However Madara needed Susanoo to make the hand seals and as such the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan is listed as well.--JOA20 (talk) 23:06, November 5, 2013 (UTC)

Chibaku Tensei again
I can't help but think this technique is actually Chibaku Tensei or at least related to it. Especially how Madara used it right before activating Mugen Tsukuyomi. Your thoughts? Norleon (talk) 16:36, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * I see why you'd think that, but there's no indication that the gravity orb can be created remotely. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:58, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm on the fence with this one. They call these masses of earth meteors in this chapter and it seems far more likely that Madara activated Chibaku Tensei back then, than actually pull down two asteroids from the upper atmosphere. I know Kishi isn't good with Science, but that is just common sense. After seeing the appearance of the earth sphere's created with his Chibaku Tensei, and then seeing how far up he can create them, I'd put my money on that. The only thing holding me back from throwing all my weight behind it is the fact that he used Susanoo and three different hand seals to preform this one. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:06, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * That and really, the major thing that seperates the two is exactly where these the meteorites come from. For this one, all we've seen was Madara clap his hands and in the sky came giant rocks of falling death. No sign of the gravity spheres that are used in Chibaku Tensei. Really, the giant rocks of crushy death time are meaninglesss, the real thing about the technique are the gravity spheres.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:10, May 21, 2014 (UTC)