Talk:Obito Uchiha

''' For previous discussions about this character, see also Talk:Tobi and its archives. '''

As Yin-Kurama's jinchūriki
In the latest chapter, Madara stated that Obito had both the left Rinnegan and the Yin half of Kurama. Is that enough to put Obito as Yin-Kurama's jinchūriki (though he most likely has already transferred it to Naruto)?--JOA20 (talk) 07:47, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

I don't know why and how, but this chapter says that now Obito possesses Yin Kurama. Should we make respective changes?Faust-RSI (talk) 08:25, February 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * He *had the Yin Kyuubi. He transferred it to Naruto. But, maybe the community might want to wait for the raws to make an official decision.-NaviiGator (A.K.A.KotoSenju) Talk Page-My Contributions 09:12, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

I'm fairly certain that Obito was the Yin Kurama Jinchuriki for a brief period of time there. He was using a kyuubi chakra arm to pull the beast fragments out of Madara, and when we saw him in Madara in that bijuu mind space place, you can see the Yin Kyuubi floating right above him. As such, I'd say it'd be safe to list him as a past Kyuubi jin. Kenny U (talk) 14:22, February 28, 2014 (UTC)Kenny U

2 things
Shouldn't we list him as a user of chakra absorption? Also I see he is listed as a Sensor, I don't recall, any justification for that?--Elveonora (talk) 10:21, February 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * Against Sasuke's Amaterasu in chapter 641: "I could sense the build up of chakra in your left eye..."--JOA20 (talk) 11:19, February 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * But couldn't it have been his sense of sight, he can see chakra? Arrancar79 (talk) 04:50, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

He is most definitely a Sensor type, as he has used sensing abilities to find Minato and Kushina, Sasuke and Itachi, and then Taka, then he said he sensed the Amaterasu build up. I also agree he can absorb Chakra.. I mean Madara did say he turned Obito into himself basically...ItachiWasAHero (talk) 07:56, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

Jinchuriki
Shouldn't Obito have Gedo Mazo be listed as one of Obito's Tailed Beasts in his infobox? It was only for a short time sure, but there nonetheless. Skitts (talk) 17:09, February 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * The Demonic Statue isn't a tailed beast, so...--JOA20 (talk) 17:10, February 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except, given it's the husk of the Ten Tails and so technically it is, so... Skitts (talk) 17:11, February 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * It may be similar to a tailed beast, but it has never been stated to be one, not by Madara, Obito or the tailed beasts, who are the ones knowing the most about it.--JOA20 (talk) 17:18, February 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's the Ten-Tails' body, so it clearly is a Tailed Beast by definition. Neither Obito nor Madara have ever referred to Gedo Mazo as a living being either, but clearly we didn't need them to tell us that once we saw it moving and showing behavior and such. Skitts (talk) 17:21, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

Well, if that's your point then we'll have to go by vote. I actually support this. --JOA20 (talk) 17:23, February 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * It might be the body of a tailed beast, but it's not a tailed beast. Obito wasn't no longer a jinchūriki the moment One-Tail through Seven-Tails and the chakra fragments of Eight and Nine-Tails were removed from him. He's not even a pseudo-jinchūriki, since he no longer had the chakra of an actual tailed beast in him. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:29, February 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Omni, the equivalent of what you're saying is if Kurama lost all of its chakra, the person it's sealed in is no longer a jinchuriki, which is self-evidently absurd. After all, Gyuki said that Samehada had absorbed all his chakra during his and B's fight with Kisame, yet we never thought to de-list B as a jinchuriki. It's the being itself that counts, not simply the chakra. Skitts (talk) 17:45, February 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Obito was a classified as a jinchuriki when he had the Ten-Tails sealed in him. When it was removed and he was just housing the Demonic Statue, he kept his status as a jinchuriki (same way Gaara kept his status despite Shukaku being removed), but he was no longer a jinchuriki because the Demonic Statue is not a tailed beast.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:05, February 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * If it's a tb, the sage's tools are tb, too. Seelentau 愛議 18:16, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

A better discussion seems to be the fact that Obito was the actual jinchūriki of Yin Kurama, not Zetsu. Madara even outright says in this chapter that it is Obito housing Kurama, evidenced by Kurama appearing with him when he went to pull out Madara's beasts, as well as his ability to transfer the beast from himself to Naruto. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 19:02, February 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Don't think it's quite that simple. It was very clear that Black Zetsu was the one who took Kurama. Obito was still unconscious when it happened. Either Obito has access to Yin Kurama because he's merged with BZ and is preventing BZ from leaving him, or for some reason, BZ housed Yin Kurama in Obito. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:19, February 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * If it were that simple for a Zetsu to become a jinchūriki, I wonder why Madara/Obito didn't just "steal" the tailed beasts housing them in Zetsu clones. Madara himself says it: "Obito has both the Yin half of the Nine-Tails and the left Rinnegan..."--JOA20 (talk) 19:44, February 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Things have been screwy with this. When Obito was not in control of his body, Black Zetsu was ready to leave Obito's body and take Yin-Kurama with him, meaning Yin-Kurama had to have been in him. However, once Obito got control of the body, he was able to do the transfer.
 * It is possible that because Black Zetsu is a parasite on Obito's body, once he regained control, he could do whatever he wanted with Black Zetsu and that includes transfering a tailed beast.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 19:46, February 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes because when he transferes the kyuubi to Naruto, he does from his right side, the side that BZ isn't on. This means that no matter what, something happened so that the kyuubi is inside of Obito now Riptide240 (talk)
 * Obito might be in control of what happens to it, but it's still in BZ. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:45, February 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Even still, he would have to have it in himself first cause he didn't do it from BZ he did it from his own flesh and being Riptide240 (talk) 20:48, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

I don't think BZ has a body in the first place. He's a mass of chakra that leeches on to people. Therefore, he would use the body he's attached to to store any tailed beasts he takes. As chakra, he has no storage place of his own. When leaving the body, he would just hold on to the chakra to take it with him. To say that BZ on his own is a Jinchuuriki is like say a tailed beast can be a jinchuuriki of a tailed beast. Not possible. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 20:58, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

He may not have a body in a traditional sense, but he definitely has a physical composition. He's not an ethereal entity, otherwise there's no way he'd be able to so many things he does, like just a few chapters ago, digging his way through the ground to intercept Yin Kurama. That still doesn't change the fact that when he was going to leave before Obito stopped him, the black mass itself was leaving Obito's body, meaning the black mass itself contained Yin Kurama. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:05, February 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Who said chakra was ethereal? If that were the case, the tailed beast would be ghosts. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 21:09, February 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Chakra by definition is made up two energies. By ethereal, I mean something like dragon entities that come out of the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path. Sure, they're there, they interact with stuff, but it's not quite mass like a rock or a tree. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:14, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

On topic... @Skitts, the "Ten-Tails/Shinju" isn't even a Tailed Beast, we just classify it as such for some weird reason. Also offtopic, but again I must remind the urgency of merging Gedo Mazo and Shinju articles. Having them separated is like saying that myself with a limb removed would no longer be me but some other person--Elveonora (talk) 23:39, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

I know I used to be in favor of the contrary, but I actually do not support a merger. Also, I kind of don't think the Gedo Mazo should really count as making him a jinchuriki... BUT... I do think the Shinju itself should be separated from the Ten-Tail's page. The Shinju (God Tree) was able to be reproduced by Obito during his duration as its Jinchuriki. But even after being stripped of the Ten-Tails and having all of the Tailed Beast comprising it split up, the Shinju remained fully planted in the ground without being disturbed. This effectively demonstrated that it, after its recreation at least, was able to continue on without and in the absence of the Juubi/Ten-Tails itself, the 9 Chakra Entities which comprised it, and the Gedo Mazo body. So I do not think either Shinju or Gedo Mazo should be counted as Tailed Beasts. After all, they both lack the fundamental chakra tails, even if they are chakra entities in either part or whole.Skarrj (talk) 05:31, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

I would agree that after taking control of his body and BZ Obito just could do anything he wanted with Yin Kurama, while it still was physically in BZ, but him resealing it to Naruto through his normal body AND him using tailed beast chakra arms against Madara suggests that Kurama somehow moved to his body. It's stupid, I know, but that's how Kishi made it.Faust-RSI (talk) 06:35, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

He did take it from Black Zetsu apparently, becoming a temporary nine tails host, then he sealed it into naruto. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 07:57, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

@Skarrj, except the Gedo Mazo IS the Shinju, what's not clear here? What's outside (the tree) is a replica. Kinda like Gaara recreating Shukaku from his sand without unsealing it from within himself in Part I. "Gedo Mazo" is just a nickname given to it by Madara. My body without limbs will still be I, Elveonora. The Shinju without the stripped chakra that are the Tailed Beasts isn't suddenly a different entity. And yes, glad you agree on that the Shinju/Gedo Mazo isn't a Tailed Beast. Tailed Beasts are Sage of Six Path's creations, and he made 9 of them... "Ten-Tails" is a tailed beast in name/label only. So to answer the topic, Obito can't be listed as a host to Gedo Mazo, Shinju, Ten-Tails, because all 3 are the very same entity just in different forms with different given nicknames.--Elveonora (talk) 12:30, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

On the the topic of Obito being Kurama's jinchuuriki, I'm not so sure. After all, it definitely was inside of Black Zetsu and it even tried to separate itself from Obito, trying to bring Kurama to Madara. In my opinion Obito isn't its jinchuuriki, he only has full control over Black Zetsu now, so you could say he is one only "by extension"--Elveonora (talk) 12:32, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

Um, no, the ten tails was explicitly stated to be the original tailed beast, that not something debatable. The rest about the ten tails I'm on the fence on. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 14:57, February 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * About the Ten-Tails being the original tailed beast, Obito at the Five Kages' Summit stated that it was "the origin of the tailed beasts" in response to Temari's question on wheter it was another tailed beast. So it is not really a tailed beast. It is considered one only because of the numerical tail name, which would put the Zero-Tails as a tailed beast as well, except it isn't.--JOA20 (talk) 16:41, February 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * People simply didn't know once upon a time there was a Ten-Tails, that doesn't make it less a tailed beast. Want a simple rationale that says it is a tailed beast? What is the definition of a jinchūriki? Someone who has had a tailed beast sealed in them. From the moment we learned about the existence of the Ten-Tails, we were told that Hagoromo was its jinchūriki, which by extension means the Ten-Tails is a tailed beast. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:15, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

Skill with staff
from the recent chapter shouldn't we add his skill to use the staff he has to deflect multiple orbs Madara attacked him withFanking (talk) 21:01, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

Sage Mode user?
After having his power drained from Obito, and Obito subseqeuntly attempting to escape via his own Kamui, he was quickly stopped by two Black Chakra Orbs which he effectively countered with his Chakra Shakujo. HOWEVER... Madara notes that:"It was correct to use Sage Mode. Were you able to suck a little of that power too?". Does this mean Obito also absorbed some of his Senjutsu in the process? Skarrj (talk) 05:34, February 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Madara didn't mean SM, read another translation. He just talked about "Rikudo Mode", i.e. staff, chakra cloak etc.Faust-RSI (talk) 06:35, February 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd still like to see what the RAW has to say about this. Because we may finally have a name for the Ten-Tails jinchūriki form. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 06:54, February 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * I thought it was a description for that form as well. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:15, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

Take a look at the chapter talk page. ;) Seelentau 愛議 16:45, February 28, 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, what I said still stays the same. Madara basically says "Transforming into the Sage (not SM user, but the Sage of 6 Paths) only once...". Also, Obito could defend himself from the orbs because the staff is made from the same material. Basically absorbing part of Madara's power enebled him to use Yin-Yang release again.Faust-RSI (talk) 19:51, February 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Na, read my translation. ;) Seelentau 愛議 00:40, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * I did, it fits perfectly.Faust-RSI (talk) 09:40, March 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * It doesn't fit what you said above, though. Seelentau 愛議 11:56, March 3, 2014 (UTC)

@Faust-RSI i have to agree with Seelentau here you did just say it was Rikudo Mode

Regardless of the translation, I'm against listing Obito as a Sage Mode user for the same reason that I'm against listing Madara. They stole Hashirama's Sage chakra (though Obito stole Hashi's from Madara) and have no capacity to use Sage Mode on their own. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 17:26, March 3, 2014 (UTC)

Hmm so Obito used sage mode for a bit, and madara calls it Senninka?? What does the ka at the end actually mean? ItachiWasAHero (talk) 00:31, March 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * "Senninka" means "Sage Transformation". "-ka" (化) means "transformation". Its the same romanji used to describe Jūgo's clan's transformation, which is basically an unstable Sage Mode. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 03:33, March 4, 2014 (UTC)

So that means Madara and Obito did not use Sage mode since it was imperfect, but instead Sage Transformation... still weird how the hashi face looked just like hashirama in actual sage mode though. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 05:30, March 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Not quite. See, Seel translated some lines from the manga, specifically Jūgo's that proves that Sage Transformation is just another name for Sage Mode. In essence, Sage Mode is a type of Sage Transformation, while Jūgo's clan is unable to balance the chakras, meaning that their Sage Transformation doesn't equate to Sage Mode. Its weird, but Madara is using a Sage Mode. Hashirama's Sage Mode, however, not his own. Same for Obito, though I question this, as he didn't gain any of the markings that Madara did. I still think it was refering to the Jinchūriki mode looking like the Sage of Six Paths, but that's just me. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 06:26, March 4, 2014 (UTC)

Considering the Ten tails chakra is equivalent to natural energy, its not completely a stretch to say the jinchuuriki form for ten tails is a form of sage mode. So maybe he's referring to that, considering there's no sage mode marks on Obito. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 06:43, March 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * The fact that there are no Sage Mode markings doesn't mean that Obito didn't absorb a small portion of senjutsu chakra. At least that's what I got from Madara's reaction.--JOA20 (talk) 07:05, March 4, 2014 (UTC)

The basic problem we have is: How could Obito use Senjutsu without the markings and all that stuff? Normally, it shouldn't be possible. The only explanation I can think of is that he didn't get any markings because he didn't absorb pure natural energy, but Senjutsu chakra. Seelentau 愛議 08:02, March 4, 2014 (UTC)

He used it temporarily to block the orbs that were shot at him right? Maybe Kishi just didn't even bother to draw it, or the tankobon will have it? ItachiWasAHero (talk) 11:09, March 4, 2014 (UTC)

Was it ever stated that the Sennin Mode is the inevitable result of absorbing natural energy? Because since the Sennin Mode is a Senjutsu, I'm thinking that a Senjutsu user doesn't need to enter Sennin Mode to use Senjutsu. Seelentau 愛議 11:19, March 4, 2014 (UTC)

So much speculation... no, Sage Transformation isn't "just" another name for Sage Mode until we are told otherwise for a simple reason: Jugo and his clan call their usage of Sage Mode as Sage Transformation yes, but we were never told they use it as a general/broad term for the phenomena outside of their clan, it's likely it refers only their own specific usage alone, which is different. For all I could care, if dogs were to be called cats somewhere in the world because a specific breed of a dog would resemble a cat, that wouldn't mean all dogs are suddenly to be called cats just because some call one so. For Madara, we don't even know if he ever met and heard a Jugo Clan's member use the term "Senninka" Madara hardly knows anything about Sage Mode, he could call it come at me from behind because he doesn't know better. But just for the sake of it Seelentau, did the word "Senninka" Madara used have even the same Kanji as Jugo's? And to answer your question (we people here argued about this topic some time ago and I oppose it still) We were never told nor has it been shown that Sage Mode is something that has to be activated rather than being automatic. Quite the contrary in fact, just refer to the magical toad oil which makes your skin suck in natural energy. After an application of it, Naruto automatically entered incomplete Sage Mode, so there's no way to have Senjutsu chakra without being in Sage Mode, because the latter is a result of the former and isn't even a technique that has to be used, it simply is a state/automatic bodily response.--Elveonora (talk) 13:51, March 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * I really don't want to discuss this again. I figured the whole topic out, but it's not my job to convince you guys. But yes, Jugo and Madara use the same term. Seelentau 愛議 13:59, March 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks. And ditto, I still am positive you interpret it wrong :-/ but I'm not a preacher either. I could repeat myself for days to come and it wouldn't change a thing. But the topic shouldn't be dismissed completely, Jugo should be listed as a user of Sage Mode at least, that I agree with.--Elveonora (talk) 17:30, March 4, 2014 (UTC)

Infobox tabs?
I know this has probably been brought up before, but are they really necessary? Why don't we just use the Obito image and put the Tobi image in the appearance section? --Mandon (talk) 19:09, March 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * ^This, I was wondering the same thing. Thanks for bringing this one up. ~IndxcvNovelist (talk 19:10, March 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree -- 19:25, March 18, 2014 (UTC)

For a good chunk of his life he wore a mask, from 14 all the way until 31. So I am kind of torn on this one. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 01:24, March 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, but now that we have seen his face, should we just add the mask on his appearance section? ~IndxcvNovelist (talk 14:09, March 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * He has a mask as his "Tobi" tab for the same reason a bunch of other characters have tabs for Anime/Manga, Part I/Part II ect. Basically, mask Tobi is more iconic than unmasked Obito (no matter how much you like to think), and the very existence of tabs are to avoid the unnecessary "I want this image! No I want this image!" scenario.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:58, March 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Plus, the majority of his appearance in the anime/manga was with a mask, so people are more likely to see him as such. Just showcasing him without one will lead to unnecessary spoilers for those who haven't yet reached the current events of the anime / manga. --Speysider Talk Page 18:01, March 19, 2014 (UTC)

That's kind of a moot point, since his unmasked image is the default photo. Besides, we don't really make decisions with, "Oh we need to avoid unnecessary spoilers" in mind. This wiki's full of spoilers, and it doesn't accommodate people who aren't caught up. --Mandon (talk) 16:30, March 25, 2014 (UTC)


 * It also does not solely cater to the people who are "caught up". Following your logic, Part I images should be removed from infoboxes since the Part II images are already there and unmasked Kakashi should someday replace masked Kakashi.
 * This is, what, your third proposal relating to Obito's infobox image. Why are you so concerned about it? ~SnapperTo 17:28, March 25, 2014 (UTC)

Mask Color
The latest episode with Obito as Madara during the time when he assisted Itachi in wiping out the Uchiha Clan had his flame-patterned mask as a red-orange. I thought it was always yellow. Was this a different mask, did the color fade over time, or was this a mistake? Diamonddeath (talk) 22:47, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't recall a yellow mask, but blame it on lighting--Elveonora (talk) 12:27, April 21, 2014 (UTC)

Maybe it was just dulled from being nighttime when he attacked Hidden Leaf with Kurama and fought Minato. At the very least, in Ultimate Ninja Storm 3, Masked Man's mask is more yellow than orange, but that could be chalked up to being a mistake. Diamonddeath (talk) 02:14, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * I recall it was light orange, so perhaps under certain lighting conditions it might appear yellowish--Elveonora (talk) 14:34, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

heartless ??
judging by the talk between Obito and Madara, Obito is actually really heartless .. when the scene with kakashi stabbing him was shown many people thought it was a genjutsu but now that mean he is actually living with no heart!--Tchad1 (talk) 07:08, May 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * It was destroyed by Kakashi and subsequently restored when Obito became the Ten-Tails' jinchuriki.JOA20 (talk) 07:37, May 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Probably even before. Remember that half of Obito's upper body is a White Zetsu goo, meaning Hashirama's cells. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 12:29, May 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * You are mistaken. The first time Kakashi stabbed Obito's heart, it indeed was a genjutsu. Afterwards, Kakashi stabbed his heart for real. The seal was applied onto Obito's old heart. A new heart obviously has grown because Hash regen + all the Shinju stuff.--Elveonora (talk) 13:44, May 7, 2014 (UTC)

Deceased?
Are we sure that he is actually dead? Madara said that he was "no more", but this could be because Black Zetsu has completely possessed his body. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 11:56, May 14, 2014 (UTC)


 * I think we should list him as "Presumed Deceased" for now. --Chrillbill (talk) 12:01, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * He was close to death so many times that I think it would be best to label him as presumably deceased for now--Elveonora (talk) 12:17, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hell at this point I would go with Incapacitated. He's not supposed to die at all until Black Zetsu is removed form him right?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:19, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * I guess. I still expect him now that he has both eyes to unlock his "true" power, overwhelm BZ (again) awake his own Rinnegan and pull out a redemption card.--Elveonora (talk) 12:26, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Gods I hope not. He already redeemed himself when he was having inappropriate relations with Madara's colon and saving Naruto.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:34, May 14, 2014 (UTC)

I also think he should be listed as presumed deceased. Munchvtec (talk) 12:39, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Incapacitated or Presumed Deceased, that's what I'd go with.--JOA20 (talk) 13:17, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wasn't Black Zetsu only keeping Obito alive in the first place so he could retrieve Madara's Rinnegan, which happened last chapter? Thus I don't think he's alive anymore, and Black Zetsu is just using his body as a meat puppet. Also Obito wasn't breathing, his eye was closed too.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 19:55, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Didn't he say something like "Obito will remain alive as long as I'm bonded with him" earlier? He's certainly out cold right now, I don't think he's actually dead. His redemption will still be milked a bit more. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:09, May 14, 2014 (UTC)

kirigakure
how was obito uchiha affiliated with kirigakure??? (Sharoze001 (talk) 22:03, May 14, 2014 (UTC))
 * He controlled Kirigakure via Yagura for an undisclosed amount of time. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:09, May 14, 2014 (UTC)

Both eyes?
Did he gets his right eye back? It's hard to tell if that's Black Zetsu's eye or his own. --Mandon (talk) 22:31, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * BZ does if you want to get technical--Elveonora (talk) 22:50, May 14, 2014 (UTC)