Talk:Twelve Guardian Ninja

Disbanded?
The manga says nothing about the 12 Guardian Ninja being disbanded. Is this something from the anime? --ShounenSuki 14:40, 26 August 2008 (UTC)
 * There is a lot about the 12 guardian ninja inside the current anime filler (though I'm a bit out of date, I haven't been able to watch for weeks), so I would expect it may come from the anime. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Aug 26, 2008 @ 17:52 (UTC)
 * According to the anime episode 58, the first twelve members, including Chiriku & Asuma, are deceased, but the organization is still active. Jacce 18:41, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Name

 * Can someone confirm the Japanese title of this group? I can't find what ShounenSuki or Gojita put up. But what I can say is I've seen Twelve Guard Ninja of Fire as opposed to Twelve Gentlemen Guardian Ninja.--TheUltimate3 17:19, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I believe everyone so far has refered to them as the Twele Guardian/Guard Ninjas/Shinobi of Fire. Gojita 17:27, 29 August 2008 (UTC)Gojita
 * out of boredom I did a little checking, Juuni means twelve. Shugonin means Guardian Ninja. So Shugonin Juuni (note its not the complete) is logically Twelve Guardian Ninja, with no mention of Gentleman or Fire.--TheUltimate3 17:29, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * More Edits of Boredom. I did further checking., while I have yet to figure out just what 忍 means. While 士 can mean, a leaning man, a magnificent man, or Samurai. While 十 and 二 mean Ten and Two respectively which I assume was supposed to simply be Twelve. Which means excluding the one which I cant decipher me picking Samurai because it simply sounded better.--TheUltimate3 17:39, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Allow me to support my translation. Here is a frame from volume 36, chapter 320, page 8. Asuma mentions the name of the group here, which I marked in red:.
 * means "guard," or "protection". means "ninja," or "shinobi". So Shugonin would mean "Guardian Ninja".
 * means "twelve". And means "gentleman" (i.e. a young man (usually of noble blood) who has studied the sciences and morals. e.g. a samurai).
 * So combining it all, I can at the "Twelve Gentlemen Guardian Ninja". --ShounenSuki 17:49, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes but there is also the fact that we do not work with litteral translations Gojita 17:57, 29 August 2008 (UTC)Gojita
 * Rikachan gives, 忍 is a bit obscure in term, I expect it is merely being used for it's sound, ,.
 * I'd say that Shugonin Jūnishi could me "Twelve Gentleman Guardian Ninja" as much as it could mean "Twelve Samurai Guardian Ninja". The latter is actually probably a bit more reasonable. We should probably get some more information. Maybe another staff poke. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Aug 30, 2008 @ 08:43 (UTC)
 * 忍, as I said before, means "shinobi," or "ninja". as in, , . In verb form (忍ぶ, shinobu) this word means "to endure," or "to conceal oneself". Which is what a ninja is. A person who endures/conceals themselves. There's nothing obscure about this term, it' one of the most often used kanji in the series.
 * As for . I already gave the precise meaning: "a (young and usually noble) man who has studied morality and the sciences". In other words, a man of good breeding and manners. A gentleman.
 * Since back in the day, this description fit samurai best, the term also gained the meaning of "samurai". Samurai were retainers and guards to a daimyo. So the Shugonin Jūnishi do in fact have the exact same function and background as samurai did.
 * However, I chose not to use this less correct, but more popular translation of "samurai," since samurai are considered the antipodes to ninja and because there have actually been two samurai in the series before, who were depicted somewhat negatively. --ShounenSuki 10:01, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Yes, it may be less correct and such, but that has no bearing on how valid it might be. And considering the wide use of bladed weapons in the group "Samurai" isn't that off of a possible term in their name. So "Twelve Samurai Guardian Ninja" is as much of a possible translation as "Twelve Gentleman Guardian Ninja" is, so we can't state that one is the definite translation over the other. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Aug 30, 2008 @ 10:22 (UTC)

(initialized the indent) It seems that the meanings of "士" you suggested are not wrong, but are not suitable in this case. "士"(Shi) also have a meaning like "warrior" or "soldier". This seems that this meaning overlaped the meaning of "忍（忍者）" (it can be said that Ninja is a Japanese traditional soldier), but this kanji adding a nuance like "group" (If this word does not contain "士" like "守護忍十二", the meaning of word would be "Gurdian Ninja. Twelve."). So simply "Twelve Guardian Ninja" is better to this, I think. (Note that this is a comment as a native japanese speaker.)-- Tommy6 helper（会話/FFXI/Anipedia+M+N/Scratchpad）13:29, 30 August 2008 (UTC)


 * I know of that meaning for 士. However, I previously assumed that was a derivative meaning from "samurai". Can 士 mean "warrior" in any other context then samurai?
 * Any way, I agree that simply translating 守護忍十二士 would be a valid translation, I must disagree. I think Kishimoto was definitely aiming at the meaning of a "well-educated protector of a daimyo" (i.e. a samurai) here. There are other groups similar to the Shugonin Jūnishi, but their all end in . Therefore I don't think 士 was simply meant to mean "warrior," but adds a meaning to the name. I think the translation we use should reflect that added meaning by using either "Twelve Samurai Guardian Ninja" (of which I disapprove for reasons stated above) or "Twelve Gentleman Guardian Ninja" (my preferred translation).
 * That said, doesn't current policy dictate that we shouldn't use translations unless an official translation has come out? Wouldn't that mean we'd have to use "Shugonin Jūnishi" for the time being?


 * I think you are not wrong. But, as I said, my comment is as a native japanese speaker due to DanTMan's help request not as a person who know Naruto very well. So, the translation I suggested is based on the general feeling or nuance that native japanese speaker who is not familiar with it feel from this word. And so, attaching importance to simple Japanese interpretation from this word or deep interpretation based on the background of naruto is your(or community of narutopedia's) matter.-- Tommy6 helper（会話/FFXI/Anipedia+M+N/Scratchpad）00:49, 31 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Honestly, we don't have a solid policy for naming of groups. Only for character names (none for unnamed characters though), and half a policy for Jutsu names (there is still debate on Technique vs. Jutsu, and Rasengan vs. Spiraling Sphere). Policies are based part on credibility and part on what's most convenient for the reader. Character names are perfectly identifying whether they are Japanese or English, and normally we don't need to worry much since names typically match and there is no worry of someone in the Japanese series being referenced in the English series before we actually have their English name. However, Jutsu names come in mass quantities, the Japanese names can be confusing for English speaking people, and they can be used before we even know their English name. So there we opt for using literal translations to keep consistency for the readers. Group names are an off case, and as normal case-by-case.
 * "Shugonin Jūnishi" isn't very identifying for a English speaker, it's not loaned like Jinchūriki. Whether the official is "Twelve Guardian Ninja", "Twelve Gentleman Guardian Ninja", or "Twelve Samurai Guardian Ninja" they are all variants of "Twelve Guardian Ninja". And when you break it down, there are twelve of them, they guard the Daimyo, and they are shinobi. Even if there is a long form to the name people are likely going to shorten the name to "Twelve Guardian Ninja" when they are chatting. Even if just while waiting for an official translation "Twelve Guardian Ninja" does make for a good valid placeholder name for reference.
 * ^_^ Don't make me bring in the Shinobi vs. Ninja discussion... heh ;) ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Aug 31, 2008 @ 02:40 (UTC)
 * "Twelve Guardian Ninja" would indeed be easier in everyday use, come to think of it. I guess I was a bit too focussed on correctness and ignored user-friendliness a bit. My apologies.
 * However, I'd still like the nuance of 士 to be shown in the article. Making the first sentence into "The ...," or something like that. --ShounenSuki 12:11, 31 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I suppose the  could go back. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion  Aug 31, 2008 @ 17:22 (UTC)

Debut
I noticed this team has no debut. Should the first time it was mentioned as a team be counted as the debut? If so, when was it first mentioned? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:52, December 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * If it is added, debut seams to be chapter 314 and Shippuden episode 58. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 21:03, December 11, 2010 (UTC)

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