Talk:Asura Ōtsutsuki

Jinchūriki status revisited
There's a difference between "playing it safe" and playing it dumb. 'Ignoring the obvious resemblances to Naruto's Tailed Beast Mode, from almost identical pattern, fox ears, fox tails and whiskers, Ashura was using either Tailed Beast Balls or Truth Seeking Balls, both of which are Tailed Beast Skills and require Tailed Beast Chakra. So I must ask, why is there a doubt that he was a jinchuuriki or a pseudo? It's indisputable.--Elveonora (talk) 19:18, August 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * How about waiting until Naruto shows his new transformation? We'll surely know more about it than now. Less work to do, less chances of false information. Case solved.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg JOA20 19:22, August 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * Indra shows off Susanoo, gets listed as Mangekyou Sharingan user. Ashura shows off Tailed Beast Mode look-like and either Tailed Beast Balls or Truth Seeking Balls, doesn't get listed as a jinchuuriki. Wut? We should approach things equally, not by nitpick--Elveonora (talk) 19:25, August 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * You want to put Asura as a jinchūriki of Kurama, right? Well, I see nothing wrong with putting him as a pseudo-jinchūriki (though we have no info on which tailed beasts), since as you say TSB/TBB require tailed beast chakra, but to say that it's undoubtedly Kurama is a bit speculative in my eyes.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg JOA20 19:30, August 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not Kurama, only jinchuuriki.--Elveonora (talk) 19:31, August 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * That would mean Asura had a tailed beast sealed into himself. Pseudo would be fine with me, but let's see what the others think.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg JOA20 19:33, August 1, 2014 (UTC)

Still too early. You guys know my answer: We wait. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:53, August 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * Just as early as Indra's spiral eyes being his Mangekyou Sharingan. Yet, that one passed.--Elveonora (talk) 20:00, August 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * "The tomoe pattern is different. That is... Mangekyō Sharingan." Tobirama's words. Indra had a Sharingan. Spiral pattern is consistent with that of Tobirama's description of what a Mangekyō is. Then Indra was shown with Susanoo. Sealed its fate. No. It was not too early. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 02:08, August 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * How is this any earlier? If someone were to use genjutsu, we would list him as genjutsu user. If someone were to use taijutsu, we would list him as a user of such. When someone uses Tailed Beast Skill, he is a jinchuuriki... except when it's Ashura, cause derp--Elveonora (talk) 11:19, August 2, 2014 (UTC)

We wait. Plain and simple. Please try to contain your omniscience.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 14:30, August 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * We don't know that it's a Tailed Beast Skill. We assume it based on previous depictions of a Tailed Beast Skill. But it could easily be something else. When do you (and many others) understand that the manga is in its final phase and there are things we can't simply explain right now? • Seelentau 愛 議 15:23, August 2, 2014 (UTC)

Considering all the crazy that's been going on around lately and the fact that Gaara is now listed as Magnet user along with sand being Magnet, I hope no one will oppose if I list Ashura as a jinchuuriki, because unlike vague magnet-sand connections, there's actual evidence for this one. If something vague can pass as a fact, I think actual evidence should be taken into consideration and presented as such, and that is:

Compelling enough, isn't it?--Elveonora (talk) 19:20, August 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Close to identical pattern of said battle avatar to Naruto's TBB, with the only differences being those prayer beads around its neck and ribs
 * It has tails (figure lol, Tailed Beast), fox ears and whiskers
 * It uses either Tailed Beasts Balls or Truth Seeking Balls, irrelevant which, considering both are Tailed Beast Skills, thus require TB chakra
 * Hashirama didn't have this, despite having been Ashura incarnate, yet Naruto does have similar thing, save extra head and arms... the major difference between Hashirama and Naruto is that the latter is a jinchuuriki, thus logical conclusion is that Ashura was one as well for having this
 * Ashura, Indra and Kurama's chakras are required to revive Hagoromo as of his words, from that is suggested that Ashura had Kurama's chakra, may have been born with it
 * More evidence I mentioned in the forum thread, too lazy too look it up

Please :( --Elveonora (talk) 13:50, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

I agree it's more than likely Ashura was a jinchūriki. As the leader of Ninshū and the son of Hagoromo, it's entirely possible that the bijū all contributed portions of their chakra to Ashura, thus explaining the humanoid avatar that resembles a bijū. The fact that Ashura was seen using Bijūdama seems to me as a clear indicator above all. I support listing Ashura as a jinchūriki but leaving his bijū ambiguous.--Reliops (talk) 16:34, August 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * Finally common sense, spread the word brother--Elveonora (talk) 16:49, August 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't like picking sides, but I'm with Elveonora on this one (I thought that the jinchuriki status was already added xD). The whole waiting game just seems as a pathetic excuse, no offense >.< I've been telling that Steam Ninjutsu is not the same as Steam Armour a long time ago, and look, it was confirmed.. The whole waiting game just throws off the wiki. Its better to add something and later change if there's more confirmation than to not add anything at all, but its just my opinion.--Omojuze (talk) 17:02, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

Exactly, especially since it's obvious. Not adding Ashura as jinchuuriki is the same as not adding someone who has used Genjutsu: Sharingan as Sharingan user in my book, just stupid.--Elveonora (talk) 17:21, August 8, 2014 (UTC)


 * Better to be missing information than to be giving false information. That the article does not say he isn't a jinchuriki = fair compromise. ~SnapperTo 17:35, August 8, 2014 (UTC)


 * I have decided to toss my lot in with "jinchuriki". Jinchuriki of what, now that remains to be seen. Continue this argument.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:42, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

I don't think there's much left to discuss. Elve has presented enough evidence to justify the jinchūriki classification as far as I'm concerned. Hypothetically of course, it would've been pretty much the same if we never knew for a fact that Indra possessed the Sharingan before we saw him with a Sharingan. All the evidence points towards it, it doesn't necessarily prove whether he had MS or EMS, but it would definitely prove he had the Sharingan. I say give Ashura the classification, but don't list any hypotheticals in regards to what bijū (even though Kurama seems like a shoe-in).--Reliops (talk) 17:58, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

@Snapper, there really isn't thing such as "false information" in this case. With all the current knowledge that's been revealed to us by the author. The canon's rules dictate that Ashura has to have been a jinchuuriki because he used a jinchuuriki exclusive technique. So as of now it's true. If it won't be true in a month or later is another thing, we will simply make adjustments. In other words, we know only as much as we are told. And from what we've been told until now, it has to be true. If everyone were as paranoid as you are, nothing would be edited. Because hey, what if 99% of everything we think to be true is false because we haven't seen the full picture yet, or what if the author changed his mind and hasn't told us yet? OMG, Kakashi's blood type may be different now than it was, we should remove it rather than risking us provide "false information" and when we are at that, let's delete everything and close this website until the manga's over, kay?--Elveonora (talk) 19:17, August 8, 2014 (UTC)


 * We've been told Kakashi's blood type. We haven't been told Asura's a jinchuriki. Your argument is bad. ~SnapperTo 20:49, August 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except we were shown it, by him using a Tailed Beast Skill. Do you need Kishimoto to sit on your lap, stick his spit-wet finger into your ear and then softly whisper it? And you misunderstood the argument. By the rules of the canon that work since chapter 1, one has to be a jinchuuriki to use Tailed Beast Skill, there's no reason to think it has changed. Assuming it works differently for Ashura is as paranoid as the possibility of Kakashi's bloodtype being different now--Elveonora (talk) 20:54, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

Are you sure it is a TB skill? I think TSBs require an abnormal mastery of senjutsu chakra. Only senjutsu can counter it, and natural energy can beat natural energy. Plus Hagoromo could use a TSB before becoming the jinchuuriki of the Ten-Tails. WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 21:02, August 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's a stupid question to ask, no offense. Naruto only got it after he received chakras of all 9 Tailed Beasts and Ten-Tails' jinchuuriki get from get go. Obito didn't have any Senjutsu prior to becoming jinchuuriki--Elveonora (talk) 21:20, August 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * None taken (Cuz I know how blunt you are), I ask a lot of them. But what is your response to Hagoromo using the TSB before being the TT jinchuuriki? WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 21:23, August 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * He is her son, duh. Just like Ashura and Indra inherited each half of Hagoromo's chakra, so did Hagoromo and Hamura have half of Kaguya's.--Elveonora (talk) 21:30, August 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * You just proved my point that Hagoromo used TSBs without being a Tailed Beast jinchuuriki (Lemme ask the stupid question again, "How is it only TB skill if Hagoromo used it w/o being a jinchuuriki?"). And if you're saying that Hagoromo inherited the chakra necessary to use TSBs from his mother, isn't it possible that Asura inherited that chakra from Hagoromo? Assuming the black balls in Asura's chakra avatar are TSBs? WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 21:37, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

Because it originates from a Tailed Beast. And no, Ashura didn't inherit it, otherwise his incarnates would have it, meaning what allowed him to use it happened post-birth.--Elveonora (talk) 21:47, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

Hagoromo inherited the chakra from Kaguya, not the Ten-Tails. She wasn't fused with the Shinju yet when Hagoromo was born. And Hagoromo, like everyone else, was born with his own chakra, otherwise everyone would be a jinchuuriki of the Shinju (technically they are). Hagoromo, with his own chakra, since he was born with it, used the TSBs, and Asura may have inherited the senjutsu necessary to use them, stupid as it sounds. Plus, Asura's incarnates inherited the senjutsu, and the ability to mix it perfectly with their chakra, like how Indra's incarnates can use Susanoo (Kabuto and Kakashi are among the exceptions). I'm of the mindset that TSBs require a huge amount of senjutsu. The Ten-Tails is a huge mass of natural energy and chakra. And like everyone else says, let's just wait for now, there is no use arguing with each other... We'll have to wait and see. WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 22:02, August 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * "Hagoromo inherited the chakra from Kaguya, not the Ten-Tails. She wasn't fused with the Shinju yet when Hagoromo was born" If she wasn't, then Hagoromo wouldn't have been born with chakra, because she got chakra because of the Shinju. And Ashura didn't inherit it, otherwise his incarnates would have it too. The Truth Seeking Balls appeared after Naruto has got chakras of all the Tailed Beasts and after Obito and Madara became jinchuuriki. There's no room left for interpretation--Elveonora (talk) 22:10, August 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * What I meant was is that she wasn't the monstrous TT when Hagoromo was born. Asura's incarnates had the senjutsu he had, and senjutsu can do a lot of things. It enhanced Hashirama's wood. It enhanced Naruto's Rasengan and Rasenshuriken. It gave Hagoromo and Asura TSBs. At one point I believed it was a TB skill, but the fact that Asura was using it with no confirmation (no matter how heavy the implication is) he was a jinchuuriki, and the fact that Hagoromo was using it before becoming a jinchuuriki is what led me to these "stupid" questions and responses. But let's just wait and see before this discussion gets way out of hand. WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 22:18, August 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * But they had to learn it, they weren't born with it, that means Ashura wasn't born with Senjutsu. For Hagoromo, I already told you he inherited Kaguya's chakras.
 * Not sure why are you stupid about this.
 * Obito becomes Ten-Tails' jinchuuriki, gets TSB
 * Madara becomes Ten-Tails' jinchuuriki, gets TSB
 * Naruto receives chakras of all 9 Tailed Beasts, mixes it with Senjutsu, gets TSB


 * From that is obvious Senjutsu alone doesn't grant TSB. One needs Senjutsu AND Tailed Beast chakra, meaning Ashura had to have both, but he wasn't born with it like you believe. Because if that were the case, the incarnates would have it from the get go. Hashirama, Ashura's incarnate didn't have it and the difference between him and Naruto is that the latter's got chakras of 9 Tailed Beasts--Elveonora (talk) 22:28, August 8, 2014 (UTC)


 * Oh I didn't say they were born with senjutsu, haha. But Asura's incarnates can perfectly mix natural energy with theirs (and so can many others). Like I said, senjutsu and natural energy do different things for different people. But we'll see what the manga brings us before assuming Asura is a jinchuuriki. WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 22:47, August 8, 2014 (UTC)


 * A wiki's job is to present information, not to interpret that information. If readers want to read between the lines they need to do it on their own; the most the wiki can do is give them the lines to read between.
 * Is Asura a jinchuriki? Probably, in the same way that Tobi was probably Obito. But like Tobito, the wiki cannot act until it's actually stated. This has nothing to do with my fantasies wherein Kishimoto penetrates my ear canal with his sweet nectars. It's about preserving what little integrity the wiki has.
 * ~SnapperTo 03:36, August 9, 2014 (UTC)

I apologize for the forum talk. I should have taken this ridiculous debate between @Elveo and I there. My bad. Maybe Asura is a jinchuuriki. Who knows? Sorry. Won't happen again. WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 05:21, August 9, 2014 (UTC)

Really Snapper? Then at least be consistent with: "it's not our job to interpret that information" because in case you didn't notice, Gaara and all sand techniques I believe got listed as Magnet Release without adequate evidence. How come are you creeping around here but not there?--Elveonora (talk) 10:51, August 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * I no longer monitor every edit on the wiki. I happened to notice this discussion, so here I am. Just because other articles have flimsy standards does not mean this one should too. ~SnapperTo 17:21, August 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well you are right about that, but I see it kinda unfair that one person is allowed to insert personal interpretation into the articles as facts (especially when he is a sysop) but another isn't. Also from my point of view alone, this topic at hand isn't even about interpretation. I see Tailed Beast Skill, I figure jinchuuriki, that's all there is to it, no room for interpretation.--Elveonora (talk) 17:28, August 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * You are a reader; you are free to see A and B and conclude C. But for the wiki's purposes it needs to be explicitly told C.
 * I haven't imposed my sysop privileges on this issue yet, and I don't particularly want to. But I will if necessary, not because I disagree with you - as I said, he probably is a jinchuriki - but rather because the wiki has standards that need to be upheld.
 * If you want to go through other articles and cleanse them of statements that are merely "obvious" and not "stated", I will support you. (In spirit at least; I'm getting to be more active than I want to be.) ~SnapperTo 17:49, August 9, 2014 (UTC)

All we know is that TSBs require chakra from the Senjutsu of the Six Paths (SPST), as shown with Obito when he absorbed chakra from Madara (Maybe Obito was a temporary pseudo-jinchuuriki of the TT). All who have used Hagoromo's senjutsu have used TSBs. Hagoromo could use TSBs before becoming a jinchuuriki because, well it is his senjutsu, he's special, and his include TSBs. Whether Asura used TSBs... we don't know. Those blacks balls in his chakra avatar could be something else altogether. If they are TSBs, that means Asura has the senjutsu of his father. And all users of Hagoromo's senjutsu have been jinchuuriki as well. WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 20:39, August 17, 2014 (UTC)

Madara and Obito got Six Paths Senjutsu after they became jinchuuriki of the Ten-Tails, so it's not Hagoromo's but Kaguya's--Elveonora (talk) 20:54, August 17, 2014 (UTC)

Good point, but why call it "The Senjutsu of the Six Paths" if it's Kaguya's instead of Hagoromo's? WindStar7125   (Talk) (Contributions) 21:00, August 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Meaning of Six Paths is yet to be explained. May have to do with chakra natures, Rinnegan's Paths or something different entirely. Just because Hagoromo was known as sage of six paths doesn't mean he invented/is an originator of whatever six paths refers to--Elveonora (talk) 21:05, August 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yet again, another good point. But if Asura can use TSBs, that means he can use the Senjutsu of the Six Paths, which lends credibility to both of our arguments (Mine = If Asura can use TSBs, he can use senjutsu; Yours = Asura is a jinchuuriki because he can use TSBs; though we don't know if they are TSBs). WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 21:08, August 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Senjutsu and Tailed Beast chakra aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, since they were originally one in the Ten-Tails.--Elveonora (talk) 21:11, August 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * True. I'm not disputing that. But how is Kaguya a user if she doesn't have the markings of the SPST? WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 21:19, August 17, 2014 (UTC)

Unless I missed it, her back is yet to be shown--Elveonora (talk) 21:20, August 17, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah it does... Back to the topic, we don't know if Asura can use TSBs... could be something else. WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 21:21, August 17, 2014 (UTC)

Presumed Yang Release?
Hear me out. When Kaguya first appeared and used her Byakugan in chapter 679, she saw the energy coming of Naruto and Sasuke's respective marks. Kaguya first assumed that they had gotten their power from Hagoromo and Hamura, but then determined their powers came from Indra and Ashura. Based on this alone, is it not all but confirmed Ashura and Indra both had Yin and Yang powers respectively?--Reliops (talk) 18:19, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

No. Hagoromo and Hamura had the seals. She first sensed the seals that imprisoned her, realizing it was the exact same as her sons'. But then she saw Indra and Asura's chakras in Sasuke and Naruto, respectively. Though it was suggested Hagoromo's sons may have them, it is not confirmed. Naruto and Sasuke respectively have Asura and Indra's chakra, and also Hagoromo and Hamura's seals. WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 18:32, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

And you don't think it's suspicious at all that we saw Indra and Ashura standing before crescent and full circle banners ? Be reasonable. There are plenty of contextual clues that point towards the fact that Ashura and Indra inherited half of their father's power each and passed that down as they were reborn. Black Zetsu manipulated Madara into pursuing Hashirama's power so he could awaken the Rinnegan, i.e. he needed to add Yang to his own Yin to obtain Yin-Yang. Hashirama couldn't have Yang if wasn't for Ashura--Reliops (talk) 18:42, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

Windstar is correct, she actually thought at first that they are transmigrants of Hagoromo and Hamura because of the seals (confirming that Hamura had a seal or both... but that's another topic) but upon further inspection of their chakra, she realized that they are of Ashura and Indra instead--Elveonora (talk) 19:01, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

@Reliops, did you read my answer? I am being reasonable. I saw the context clues. What do you think I meant when I said "it was suggested" they may have the seals. Read my entire statement before asking me to "be reasonable." Though I'm not offended by your statement. @Elveo, thanks. WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 20:02, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

That's what I said though. Kaguya recognised Indra and Ashura's chakra. My point is that those chakra are Yin and Yang respectively, as Sasuke later said, i.e. Indra and Ashura had those powers.--Reliops (talk) 20:44, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

No. She didn't recognize her grandsons chakra first. Kaguya recognized the seals, then threw Naruto and Sasuke. She initially thought it was Hagoromo and Hamura due to the seals, and Black Zetsu later confirmed that her sons used those seals. Then Kaguya, using her Byakugan, realized Naruto and Sasuke have Hagoromo and Hamura's seals, but also Asura and Indra's chakra. It is implied that Hagoromo's sons have the seals, but we have to either see it on their hands first, or have Hagoromo or someone else confirm it. Which brings me to this question, when did Sasuke confirm that? WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 20:54, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

Ashura and Indra didn't have the seals or at least weren't born with them and there was no reason for Hagoromo to give them to his sons, because Kaguya was sealed by him and his brother. Had Ashura and Indra been born with the seals, then so would have them their incarnates, but they don't.--Elveonora (talk) 21:00, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

"Kaguya first assumed that they had gotten their power from Hagoromo and Hamura, but then determined their powers came from Indra and Ashura." - How is that any different from what I said? I didn't say a thing about the seals, I was referring to their power, i.e. their chakra. Kishimoto being Kishimoto, isn't going to give us full truths and complete answers. It's up to us to connected dots using basic reading comprehension and contextual clues. I point to these two images specifically in which Obito explains Yin and Yang, and then without directly using those words, says that is what Indra and Ashura respectively inherited. 1] 2]

We've already set a precedent for presumed nature types, and this seems an appropriate use of it.--Reliops (talk) 21:06, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

I agree with you there, @Elveo. WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 21:13, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

Either Way
I'd honestly like this debating over Asura's battle mode to stop, but I just wanna put in my thought as to what it is. This is just a logical idea that seems to make sense to me. There's 3 possible explanations to what those spheres are:

1. They're tailed beast balls because he's a jinchuriki

2. They're Truth Seeking Balls because he inherited his father's "body", meaning the Six Paths' Senjutsu

3. Once again they're Tailed Beast Balls because he got their chakra or at least their cooperation, since his dad is their beloved creator.

Honestly, the third one kinda makes sense to me because they were still young at the time (presumably) and would help the sage's son. Either one of the 3 still relates to tailed beast chakra since i think we can safely assume that its Bijuu-based. The second one is more likely since Asura, most likely, battled Indra with his inherited power. I would also like to remind everyone that he inherited his father's body while he still was the Juubi's jinchuriki, leading me to believe that his "body" power is similar to Naruto's power now.

Little side note, I noticed that all of Asura's known transmigrants have some connection to the tailed beasts and senjutsu, further leading me to believe that Asura's inherited power is connected to the tailed beasts and senjustsu in some way. Also, for the whole Asura/Yang thing, I think that he did utilize, not the seal, but Yang release itself because the sage said he inherited his strong physical energy. And it was hinted at that the transformation of yin and yang had to do with the balance and strength of the physical and spiritual energies in chakra. Also, physical energy, vitality that's connected to it, and a strong life force are all connected. This is my rant, thank you for hearing me out, and if you don't agree with something, then we'll talk it out maturely without insults. Wrapping it up, if it's not based on tailed beast chakra at all, then it has to be just a chakra construct, which a HIGHLY doubt since he inherited his father's body, meaning either the senjust, tailed beast chakra, or both as naruto does since the Juubi is a mix. Riptide240 (talk) 14:52, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * You haven't said anything new though. In all 3 cases he has to have been a jinch.--Elveonora (talk) 15:41, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily since the second and third options don't involve him being a jinchuriki. obviously the construct is bijuu based and i think its the inherited tailed beast chakra he got from Hagoromo Riptide240 (talk) 21:46, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

So where do you stand in all of this Elve? I'd look above but that's too much reading Riptide240 (talk) 21:49, August 20, 2014 (UTC)