Talk:Scorch Release: Halo Hurricane Jet Black Arrow Style Zero

Delete
This is not the real name, it's just something Minato came up with. Maybe a mention in the two techniques pages is enought.94.135.131.139 (talk) 09:14, June 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * you might as well keep it, technically it's the name of the technique. Just use this as the unofficial name until later--Shock Dragoon (talk) 09:19, June 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * It is not the name of the technique, Minato just invented a name that might fit with the appearance of the effects of the jutsu.94.135.131.139 (talk) 09:22, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

Would it be a good idea to keep the article name for now as a placeholder, and add a redirect when the official name is revealed? Course, it's just a name Minato gave it, but it would make it easier for users to find information about the jutsu since it's the only name it has received thus far.
 * That's what I said, you might as well for now. It's still a technique, just the name is not official yet--Shock Dragoon (talk) 09:37, June 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * The Mangastream translation is out and Minat said himself that the name is crap. The speech bubble was just empty in the other translation.Norleon (talk) 10:50, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

According to the mangastream translation, minato calls it "shakuton" which they translated as scorch element the same as the paku girl. This might mean that fire and wind natures make up the scorch release.--Rayzur (talk) 11:47, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

Minato himself later said, "naaah". This was not an indication enough that he was joking? --Cerez 365 ™(talk) 12:46, June 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * It's mentioned that he thought the name was lame. As for deleting, why?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:09, June 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, the technique deserves it's own article, for sure. As for the name, Minato's joke name seems to be what we have. We could just mention in the trivia that the name was a joke Minato quickly came up and dismissed immediately.

Another possibility is we give it a generic name, just like the other unnamed techniques on the wiki. All I know is, the technique needs an article. --ScruffyC – Ash &#34;Scruffy&#34; Chancellor, the man who will become the world&#39;s greatest video game designer and change the world y&#39;know! (talk) 13:21, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

I say keep it, it's a Collaboration Techniques Sage Art: Goemon and shit are recognized by author as their own techniques, so why not this? It's Naruto's Fuuton attack enhanced by Sasuke's "Katon" attack, or the other way around 0_o so no deletion please--Elveonora (talk) 13:29, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

It seems to me, it's not a debate about whether to keep the article or not, but what to do about the name. So the idea of whether it should be deleted or not is irrelevant, what we should be discussing is it's name. I say, until it gets a better one in canon, the only name given for it is what Minato said, so listing that as the name while invoking the trivia that even he thought it was bad works. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 13:37, June 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Plus Tobirama himself noted that it was one of the toughest Collaboration Techniques, and that the techniques had the same amount of chakra density.. 13:42, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

Someone had to first come up with every technique's name, why does it matter Minato named it?--Elveonora (talk) 13:45, June 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * Hence why it's noted in the trivia that he named it. That being said do we remove the delete tag now or is the discussion still going?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:48, June 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * If you believe there's still something to argue about... I think not. If we count this as a technique Uzumaki Formation lol... this definitely is one.--Elveonora (talk) 13:50, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

The name must stay, in the translation i dont see him taking the name he gave, he thought that e could do better, but was the only think that came to his mind in the moment, until they give another name, that name should stay because he dind't take it, he only was disappointed with his creativity. --Dan.Faulkner (talk) 14:01, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

Shakuton
While this technique is being named and accepted and all, we're forgetting about the "Shakuton" part that Minato initially said. But in the MangaPanda translation of the chapter, there was a note below saying that the "Shakuton" meant "Miraculous Element".. Probably the Shakuton of Scorch Release and the Shakuton of this new element share the same romanisation. But we need someone who can translate the raws.. 14:08, June 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes that's an important part from the technique, because doesn't seems right Sorch Release. maybe they call it "Miraculous Element" = Shakuton because they "Naruto and Sasuke" mixed Blaze with Wind, Tobirama and Minato got impressed with that. The two mixed element made a miraculous one. Just a opinion. --Dan.Faulkner (talk) 14:15, June 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * For this part we wait on the raws. If anything, something good may come from Minato's jest and we find out what Scorch Release is made of.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:17, June 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * 蹟 Shaku means trace or remains and is used in 奇蹟 Kiseki, which means miracle. Could be that it's indeed 蹟遁 Shakuton, meaning Miracle Release, but let's wait for the raw. Seelentau 愛議 16:15, June 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Tangorin lists the same kanji used in the regular Shakuton kanji as meaning miracle, even though I think that's a mistake. Wiktionary lists it as having meanings more in line with the scorch one. Both scanlation groups have done some rather derpy and crass mistakes lately a far as translations go. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:21, June 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * But isn't Scorch supposed to be Katon+Fūton? (Well, technically atleast..) And this one was Enton+Fūton.. Plus this is the first time Sasuke and Naruto used a collaboration jutsu of such a level. So, there is this part of me that's like "When Naruto and Sasuke team up for the first time, would Kishimoto really call it Scorch (given the fact that it was already introduced before)? Or something with a better name, that can describe the situation in a better way..?". So Miracle Release might be the classification for this technique.. 10:47, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

Except we don't know what Scorch Release is. All we know it does is burn the water in the body, mummifying the victim. Ain't got a clue what it takes to actually make it.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 11:50, June 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * I have an issue with us listing this technique as an actual Scorch Release. I mean for one, we have no idea what components make up Scorch Release though now it's probably more than obvious it's wind and fire, but listing this as an actual Scorch Release is entirely false. The name is fine, but I'm against listing it as an actual Scorch Release.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 13:58, June 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Shakhmoot said its been confirmed.. 14:02, June 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ice Release: Black Dragon Blizzard and everything else does set a president and Tobirama's words of the two techniques having perfect ratios allowing them to mix perfectly shouldn't be ignored either. If anything this probably goes down as the first Advance Nature Transformation which neither user can actually use.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:37, June 14, 2013 (UTC)

Shakuton is Fire and Wind, which are both used in this Jutsu. However, since what Sasuke and Naruto are doing isn't really Seishitsuhenka, Minato says that this name is probably stupid. We have Shakuton confirmed now, but this Jutsu isn't real Shakuton, since simpley mixing a Katon and a Futon Jutsu doesn't make Shakuton, the same with Naruto's and Yamato's Jutsu back in the fight against Kakuzu and Hidan, that wasn't Ice Release either. It's the same this time. But yay, Shakuton confirmed. Seelentau 愛議 14:54, June 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * The difference is, Seelentau, as Ultimate pointed out, that the chakra ratios were perfectly the same in both techniques; something that I doubt Naruto and Yamato did, as it is implied to rarely happen, even under the best conditions. It was named Shakuton, and regardless of Minato calling the name stupid, it was the name that first popped into his head, so obviously it is more a description of the technique than the extravagant names often used for techniques. Seeing as we also have a precedent in the anime-only Ice Release techniques, I'd say we have enough to classify this as a non-kekkei genkai Shakuton, just like those. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 22:16, June 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * Backing up a bit, so now we know Scorch Release is Fire and Wind yes?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 23:19, June 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * I would say yes. I don't see any logical reason Kishimoto would say this is "Scorch Release" and then have the actual nature be two completely different elements. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 23:21, June 14, 2013 (UTC).

And what has the chakra ratio to do with this? Combining a fire and a wind technique outside of the users body doesn't create a scorch technique, as you can see with Yamato's and Naruto's techniques. That wasn't called Mokuton, was it? Of course Minato comes up with Shakuton, because usually Katon and Futon make Shakuton when combined inside the useres body through a Kekkei Genkai. That's why he decided to name it Shakuton. Seelentau 愛議 00:12, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * You haven't disproved anything. That is no different than the precedent established by Ice Release, which is that it is still called Ice Release and considered Ice-natured when a user converts water into ice outside their bodies. It just wasn't done with the kekkei genkai. The same can be said here. That technique, for all properties and purposes, is a Scorch Release done outside the body of the user — translation, a Scorch Release without the kekkei genkai. There is no difference. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 00:20, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * This whole thing is irksome to me. It shouldn't have been said in the first place. But so long as we don't list Naruto and Sasuke as wielders of the kekkei genkai, I'm ready to ignore this technique. However, I will say Seelentau has a reason, currently I don't like the heading "without the kekkei genkai" heading. It's entirely misleading. Suppose a person/persons are able to combine a water and wind release or earth and water in the perfect ratio and what have view like Naruto and Sasuke had, are we to list those as Ice Release: X or Wood Release Y when the effects aren't remotely the same? What Minato said isn't to be taken that literally.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 00:30, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

I don't want to disprove anything. I'm just saying that this Jutsu is no Shakuton Kekkei Genkai Jutsu because it wasn't created through the Kekkei Genkai. I don't know what the Hyoton user from the movie have to do with this, but since that's not canon, I'll ignore it. We only have one similar and canon example where two natures where combined, which is the Jutsu used by Yamato and Naruto. That was no Mokuton, so why should this be Shakuton? Minato named it Shakuton, because usually Fire and Wind makes Scorch, but not in this case. You don't get a new nature when you combine two of them outside of your body. Otherwise, Kekkei Genkai would be useless and everyone could go and create Mokuton. Also, Minato even admitted that this name is stupid, most likely because it's long and dumb, but also because it's no actual Shakuton, but only Fire and Wind combined. Seelentau 愛議 00:40, June 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * @Cerez That may be your interpretation, and that's fine, but just because Minato laughed and said the name sounded stupid doesn't mean we can take it any more literally than any other technique name. If someone had called the name of Naruto's Rasenshuriken stupid, would we have not taken it seriously? Or any other technique for that matter? The name doesn't matter as much as the properties do. Minato was naming the technique based on the properties of the technique (blatantly obvious based on what he named it), therefore we can say it is fairly accurate when he called it a Scorch Release. Secondly, the "Without the Kekkei Genkai" heading on Scorch Release is not any less accurate than the Ice Release techniques that were used without the kekkei genkai in the anime. Its the same concept. I don't see why that's such an infuriating thing. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 00:45, June 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * @Seelentau -- I do not disagree with anything you've said. Not to mention Sasuke used Amaterasu flames, not normal fire flames, which also doesn't support the Shakuton idea. Furthermore, it did not appear to change in its nature, but rather just more powerful flames (though I cannot say for sure because we haven't seen it coloured; but had Kish coloured it, it would probably just black). All this and more, it doesn't make what we know of Shakuton already; Shakuton also is an advanced nature element utilizing kekkei genkai, but I won't be redundant and say what some already have about how it isn't the same. All-in-all, it shared the name but cannot be described as a kekkei genkai advanced nature type, ergo it isn't.


 * As for the Naruto-Yamato jutsu you're referring to, isn't that the Suiton and Fuuton, rather than Doton and Suiton? Which wouldn't be Mokuton, and wouldn't make sense considering Naruto doesn't have suiton or doton. Anyways, just nitpicking, lol.--Taynio (talk) 01:25, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

This is a Scorch Release in name only, in my opinion. We can probably list how Minato's comment hints at Scorch Release being fire and, but like others have mentioned, Typhoon Water Vortex is no Ice Release either, as Hiruzen using his own earth and fire techniques were not considered a Lava Release as well. Anyway, something else has to be done about the translation of this as well, I see nothing of the last two kanji in the name, the first two mean something like "halo", and the black part should say something like "jet black". Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:44, June 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * My personal gripes with this technique and its name are irrelevant. I am only concerned about the fact that we cannot perpetuate the idea that two persons or a person able to combine two nature transformations in a similar manner to this collaboration technique is the equivalent of them using the kekkei genkai "without the kekkei genkai". That will set a precedence for future occurrences to be listed as such. Then what's stopping us from adding Naruto and Gamatatsu's Wind Release: Toad Gun as "without the kekkei genkai"? If we're to follow the precedence set by the Ice manipulators that called it Ice Release, then what's stopping us from adding Naruto and Sasuke as Scorch Release users? All of what is mentioned there can go underneath the trivia section. In this instance, Minato calling the technique Scorch Release isn't to be taken literally but simply meaning that Fire+Wind=Scorch Release generally.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 02:12, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Now it's been confirmed that Scorch = Wind + Fire by this technique. This mixing process happened outside of user bodies, I mean it's combined with two different elements techniques. If we look for the Scorch as a kekkei genkai, there is a third element to make the difference from kekkei genkai to a combination of two types, it's the blood inheritance and the excellent sharing ratio for the two elements. This element isn't available for many techniques that uses two types like Typhoon Water Vortex Technique. Don't forget Mei's statement about her Boil Release that she could make a perfect sharing ratio between fire and water. — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 04:28, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * ^ Exactly my point. Look, folks, I'm not saying this technique is kekkei genkai. We all know it isn't. But just like how the movie-only Ice Release, users just froze water to use their techniques, hence bypassing the need for the actual bloodline, this technique is a result of fire and wind being mixed at the perfect ratio to preform a Scorch technique without either component needing the kekkei genkai. Its just normal ninjutsu, but it is Scorch Release. We have a precedent (even if its anime-only, that's also where we got Collaboration Ninjutsu, don't forget) and we have not one, but two Hokage commenting on it; Tobirama and Minato. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 16:06, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

That's different though. The movie-only Ice Release came before we have known Haku's to be an advanced nature. In the anime, a character I believe froze water but that's listed as Water Release and for that, this shouldn't be listed as Scorch Release in infobox but as is, blaze and wind--Elveonora (talk) 16:27, June 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * I would also like to point out, Kishimoto doesn't seem to care one way or another on where his ideas come from. The swords Kiba came from the anime, then he put it in the manga. Paruka came from a movie, then he put her in the manga. I think it may be high time we stop trying so hard to ignore things when clearly the author isn't.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:30, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * unless you've got some inside information and you know what we don't, then please, provide some proof for that, because assuming Kishimoto stole from anime isn't backed up. How do you know it wasn't the other way around, anime team getting their stuff from Kishimoto?--Elveonora (talk) 16:34, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) You're right I don't. But at the same time, you don't either.
 * 2) Because Fangs of Lightning predates Kiba (swords) by upwards to seven years, and Kishimoto has a habit of not completely thinking small things like this out. Don't believe me? Look at this very discussion we are having.
 * 3) Pakura, Gari, and Chūkichi movie forms predates their manga forms by a year. Again, possible that Kishimoto was like "lol here take these imma add the manga later lolsause", or Studio Perriot made character designs and Kishimoto said "lol dos look cool lolcrackle" and put them in the manga--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:43, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Now I'm not saying we make everything the movies do canon or whatever. I'm just saying that we when we have president, use it. Don't ignore something just because you don't like it and then waste valuable time arguing back and forth about nothing when we could just look to the right and go "Oh, well ok then." This is why we get into such stupid back and forth arguments on a weekly basis, we have people who try their damnedest to ignore things they don't like.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:45, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

What does it have to do with the discussion at hand though? For what we know, Kishimoto wasn't involved with the first Naruto movie, especially not since the movie's Ice Release considerably differs from Haku's which appeared first. Maybe I'm missing the context in relation to Scorch Release, your post is a response to mine about anime Ice Release. So you suggest we now change Ice Disk Technique and Water Release: Cold Sky Water Attack to Ice Release? Still I'm not seeing the logic and Lightning Fangs appearing in anime years before manga has little to nothing with this too. I suggest you to get a coffee 0_0--Elveonora (talk) 17:20, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * The discussion at hand is if this technique is a Scorch Release or not. I'm using the Ice Release because yeah its the president I was talking about. Personally, it was called Scorch Release, I think it's Scorch Release. If Minato knew that Fire and Wind makes Scorch and said as such, but then came up with the stupidest name he could think of, that doesn't discount it as Scorch Release. I'm even taking Tobirama's words to heart where the two techniques were combined with perfect ratios in perfect sync, furthering the concept that the two natures formed a third.
 * Where those called Ice Release? No? Then no. Hell one was specifically called "Water Release". Not difficult.
 * Also, keep up. You asked how did I know Kishimoto didn't share information with the anime, and I gave an example of something something Kishimoto most likely couldn't have because I doubt he thought that far ahead for something he barely even used. Seriously, not that difficult. Think a little. Very simple.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:32, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

Something I have brought up a few times about that Water Release, is that based on other sources, the technique might not have anything to do with Ice at all. Japanese Wikipedia lists it with different kanji that have nothing to do with ice. I do not think that we should list the nature of this technique as Scorch Release, because unlike other examples, this one appeared after we already had an established Scorch Release ninjutsu. All others appeared before the proper name idea of combining natures was introduced. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:59, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * This. @Ultimate @Ten Tailed Fox, same rules do not apply. Animators more or less made up their own version of Ice Release before we learned the term canonically and it's workings got explained. They are called the same, that's why they share an article I believe. In my opinion, we should separate them into two. To my memory, it wasn't stated in the movie that their version of it is also made of water and wind nor to be an advanced nature, fixed. And I follow the discussion well, I just don't get why you brought up what you did. You likely misunderstood my post or something, but don't worry, we all get weaker moments.--Elveonora (talk) 18:34, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

I misunderstood nothing. I gave examples that supported my argument. Regardless is regardless however, this entire discussion was circular long before I stepped in. At the end of the day, it was called Scorch Release, but wasn't and the article already reflects that. If someone wanted to make the comment that it is Scorch Release, then tough cookies this is not the kind of place where something like that can/should be argued. If nothing can be added to further this discussion, I say it's closed. Anyone agree?--TheUltimate3 (talk) 19:00, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd like it to be closed. I believe the proposition of some was to treat it as an actual scorch technique, ie. having search filters and infoboxes reflect that etc. and I think you disagree with that too? If so, then it's all good :)--Elveonora (talk) 19:22, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Quite to contrary. I think it would be a rare moment of literary awesomeness from Kishimoto if they made a an Advanced Nature through perfect unison. Naruto's little flashback with Yamato, Tobirama's words and the name all would have lead to a moment of "Naruto and Sasuke by working together did the impossible" sort of thing. I am also very aware how anal this place can get over such things and I would rather not push the issue and leave it as a trivia note then to continue this any further for the sake of order. But yes, this should be closed.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 19:26, June 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * And I don't disagree with you, in a way it's correct but having the wikia system reflect that would just confuse visitors like: "x person visits narutopedia, sees it, OMG NARUTO CAN USE FIRE AND HAS A KEKKEI GENKAI" thing. People are confused as is, just check naruto answers wiki where we get comments like Namikaze Clan being off-shot of Uchiha and stuff, so it's best to keep it as a mix of blaze/fire and wind for the time being--Elveonora (talk) 19:35, June 15, 2013 (UTC)