User talk:Omnibender/Elemental recomposition table

Orochimaru's Experiments and Otogakure
Orochimaru conducted many experiments in search for copying kekkei genkai. Yamato and Danzō were able to use Wood Release, and it may be possible other test subjects were able to use elemental techniques. Earlier in the plot, the Oto-nin were able to use techniques based on sound (Zaku's jutsu was based on vacuum and air pressure also) through the use of special instruments and implants in Zaku's case. Could these have been Orochimaru's efforts to find a Sound Release?
 * An anime-only character, Kigiri, was also able to use smoke in battle, such as the Smoke Clone. Kigiri was able to use a fire-based technique, confirming the connection of smoke to fire. Kihō was also able to use smoke-based techniques, such as the Smoke Dragon through special devices. GoDai (talk)
 * What Orochimaru did was to transplant a kekkei genkai to other individuals, something which seems much simpler than creating a kekkei genkai. Even though it has logic, I wouldn't give much credit to the smoke now, because as an anime-only plot, it may have nothing to do at all with Kishimoto, we don't know how involved he is with anime-only plots. The Six-Tails Arc, for example. Utakata is a canon character, but the arc about him isn't. His bubble techniques were referred to in a canon source, but most of them appeared only in the anime. We don't know if they should be accountable as valid arguments. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 13:22, March 5, 2010 (UTC)

Thinking the Other Way
Wood Release keeps coming up on my mind, as wood release generates living wood. (However, the effects varied between users: Yamato seems to generate just wood, Danzō seems to generate trees from his arm, and Hashirama seems to generate trees and control them entirely, probably because it was his natural kekkei genkai and he had absolute control over it.) Unlike the other advanced natures, wood release seems to deal with an extremely complicated structures: living cells. The fact that earth and water natures are enough to form living plant cells seem too much out of range, although with Earth Release already being able to control mud eliminates mud as a combination.
 * To me, it seems Kishimoto is trying to fit in stereotypical classical elements into this system, like Fire, Wind/Air, Earth, Water, Lightning/Electricity, Wood/Plants, Ice/Cold, Metal, Poison/Toxins, Sound/Sonics, Light, and Darkness. Most of these have already been shown on manga, although Metal, Poison, and Sound were not Natures. These three could be Natures, but with effects different from the previously shown jutsu related to these classical elements.

--GoDai (talk) 01:17, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * So maybe
 * After (more like If) Fire + Lighning = Blaze (symbolizing Sun, Light, Heat, Plasma, and Radiation in my opinion) becomes true
 * Fire + Wind = Poison Gas (or Smoke/Ash, or maybe related to Shizune's poison gas technique, although not kekkei genkai)
 * Wind + Lighning = Thunder (Sonic Shockwaves? Not the same as Oto-nin's hearing-based jutsu)
 * Earth + Lighning = Metal, or some type of metal, maybe steel/iron (or Magnetism, either way you control metal)
 * This way, all stereotypical classical elements seem to fit in.
 * This is just my opinion, the best I could come up with. I think stronger versions, triple+ combinations, and stronger versions of combinations may be a little to complicated, and I think it would be awkward for all that to be suddenly introduced into the plot, since nothing like that was mentioned before. I also ignored all anime/movie-only natures. I myself stick to the 10-possible-combinations-only theory for now.
 * But who knows. Kishimoto can play around with the plot any wasy he wants since he's the author. --GoDai (talk) 07:40, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

I've given my thoughts on why I don't think that Fire + Lightning = Blaze a couple sections above. I don't think that poison would reuslt from Fire and Wind, I can see it being something derived from Smoke, but not being the main product of the blend. Thunder is just the sound produced by lightning, and it would be difficult to use because "kaminari" refers to both lightning and thunder, it's the whole phenomenon. I considered Metal as a possibility for Earth and Lightning, but since I hold anime-only higher than films, that's my number two option for that blend, the first one is Crystal. Metal was in one of the movies. I just put stronger versions going on the idea that Blaze is just a uber strong version of Fire, applying that idea to other elements. I'm with you on triple combinations, until they hint at it, I won't speculate on it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:31, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * But would it be okay for me to consider Amaterasu as the stronger fire, and Blaze Release allows you to control the flames, not just emit them (usually from your mouth) to ignite other things, like Fire Release?
 * So I think Fire only breathes flames, while Blaze controls them.--GoDai (talk) 18:52, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * And I mentioned Earth + Water = Wood seems a little too far out of range, but I think Masashi Kishimoto had to put it somewhere, and that was the best place for it. So I think he will try to "shove in" other stereotypical elements into this system. The only ones left were Poison, Sound, and Metal (the only ones that seemed the most obvious, yet were not in this system)., so I tried squishing them in.
 * I think Smoke may have an extra effect, like Boil Release, which was definitely more than boiling water and hot steam.
 * I don't think the Crystal would be a combination, because Guren fell into many situations where she could have used Lightning (or maybe Earth, but Crystal was probably a better choice than Earth) jutsu to gain an advantage, but she did not. I think the ability itself is non-canon.
 * Haku was shown using a water technique.
 * Yamato was shown using Water and Earth.
 * It was stated Lava is Fire + Earth (I think)
 * Darui was shown using Water and Lightning separately.
 * Mei Terumī herself said she had Earth, Fire, and Water natures, and she had 2 kekkei genkai: Lava and Boil. (She did not possess the ability to combine Earth and Water)
 * Guren did not use any of the component natures of Crystal, leading me to believe it was rather a pseudo-element. She had a high level of skill with it, but was yet unable to generate Crystal from raw chakra. She crystallized her surroundings, including moisture. I believe it was a kekkei genkai that allowed you to control a substance, but not a true Nature (no matter how convincing), like Kimimaro's ability. (They also had similar techniques: Dance of the Clematis: Flower, and Crystal Release: Giant Crystal Dart.) The name itself may have been mistaken, as Guren did not know of the origins of her unique ability, like Haku. Haku did not name his technique "Ice Release" because he did not know the kekkei genkai's name.--GoDai (talk) 18:52, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * The Dark, Steel, and Swift natures have no proof as natures, and I think Earth + Lightning would let you control some type of metal, not make your own body as hard as metal, and therefore it would rather resemble Iron Sand. None of the effects of the movie natures resembled Nature Transformation at all. --GoDai (talk) 18:52, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Please don't make so many indents, they stretch things too much. Also, you don't need to leave spaces in piped links, do, not  . I think that Blaze Release would account for producing flames to some extent, because Sasuke complimented Gaara on being able to guard against Amaterasu. Don't know about simply controlling it. Maybe controlling Amaterasu, which is particularly powerful fire. I agree that sometimes Guren could have used Lightning to gain an advantage, but Crystal still is a kekkei genkai, because either she or Kakashi said that the Sharingan couldn't copy it, and Orochimaru said that her techniques were a elemental recomposition. Earth and Lightning were the only viable blend. That or an Earth Release with Yin-Yang twist we don't know about. I agree that the natures are rather irksome, but since natures are usually denoted by radical-ton, they're natures for now. Also, Iron Sand is nothing more than magnetism, the Third Kazekage just had magnetic chakra, which he used to manipulate the iron sand. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:10, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * The Sharingan can't copy k.g., that's true. But advanced elements are only some of the k.g. Shikotsumyaku is a k.g., but not an element-combining one.
 * Haku had no idea the k.g. he had was Ice Release, but Guren's case might be the other way around, while it is a k.g., it might not be an advanced nature, but just very convincing enough to make Orochimaru believe it is an advanced element. Although being called *something*-ton makes it count as an advanced nature, it was anime-only and that doesn't seem enough proof for it being a canon nature. And most of the techniques would have been named by Guren herself or Orochimaru, meaning Orochimaru might have named it Shōton himself. For example, Orochimaru randomly travels all over the world, and finds a kid that can create and manipulate metal or something. He could easily assume it is an advanced nature on the spot, when it might not be an advanced nature.--GoDai (talk) 03:19, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

Haha sorry about the indents. I see what you're saying. But is there anything confirmed about Yin and Yang? Can you tell me the chapters where I can find info on this?--GoDai (talk) 19:29, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * How about "Conduction Release"?
 * Actually, we don't know if Haku knew the name of his kekkei genkai. At the very least, he had to know that it involved blending wind and water natured chakra. Seeing that Kirigakure went through a period in which people with kekkei genkai fought and were feared, I'd say that at the very least someone knew its name, I also find it unlikely that Zabuza didn't know its name. Sharingan can't copy any kekkei genkai, element combining or not. Very little is known on Yin and Yang. All that is known is that it is a form of nature transformation responsible for some non-elemental techniques, including but not limited to the Nara clan's shadow techniques, the Akimichi clan's expansion techniques, medical ninjutsu and genjutsu. ShounenSuki's translation is here. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 13:20, March 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * What if they meant that the Sharingan cannot copy other k.g., obviously including the Advanced Natures, but the Mangekyō Sharingan may have an Advanced Nature itself, as each Mangekyō varies from person to person, the abilties of a Mangekyō may be connected to that person's unique chakra. Or if it strictly cannot combine elements in any way at all, can you tell me where it said that? Thanks. --GoDai (talk) 06:55, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * The Mangekyō having an advanced nature as an exclusive technique is something I could live with, even though it's something I'd frown upon, since the beginning of the series, the Sharingan went from cool and reasonably powerful too completely over-powered. Something I'd like to see from Sasuke is him having his own MS techniques, not just Itachi's, or things built on top of Itachi's. He was able to create Kirin, it was cool, but now he just uses jutsu he got from Itachi. Way back in the Land of Waves arc, when Team 7 first learned Haku had a kekkei genkai, Kakashi explained what it was, and said that because it comes from one's genetic code, even the Sharingan can't copy it. For example, say Kakashi tried to copy Yamato's Wood Release techniques. It wouldn't work because even though Kakashi can use Water and Earth, he doesn't have the kekkei genkai to combine them in Wood. However, I believe that if, for the sake of argument, Danzō could use Wood Release the same way Yamato does, using actual techniques left and right, if he tried to copy Yamato's techniques with the Sharingan, he'd be able to, because he can copy with the Sharingan, and is able to blend Water and Earth to make Wood. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:04, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I do agree that Sasuke is using Itachi's MS techniques most of the time now (he mostly uses Amaterasu over most other Fire techniques now). So it is possible that Blaze Release is a "MS element" available to Sasuke and possibly other Uchiha? Even though the user must be able to copy the techniques that the Sharingan copies, including K.G., what if Sharingan users (some or all) possess the gene for Blaze Release already? --GoDai (talk) 19:17, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Blaze Release could be something that is acessible to MS users, much like Tsukuyomi or Kamui, but I don't think other kekkei genkai techniques can be copied unless the one who copies also has the kekkei genkai which allows to use the technique. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:42, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

Nature Transformation vs. Chakra Infusion
Gaara's sand manipulation is chakra infusion, although unique to him and Shukaku. It is similar to Sai's ink, Kimimaro's bones/calcium, and Konan's paper, etc. These are "pseudo elements," as they all control a substance, but cannot generate it out of nothing. They are all infused with chakra in order to control. Ink cannot be generated, shikotsumyaku requires some bones/calcium to accelerate and direct growth, and Dance of the Shikigami is a transformation jutsu.
 * It is to be noted both Natures and Infused substances have been used for bunshinjutsu, shunshinjutsu, etc.
 * Jiraiya could also infuse hair with chakra to sharpen it, and he could spit oil like a toad.
 * Killer Bee could generate ink from his mouth, being the jinchuriki of the Eight-tails.
 * Kidomaru could infuse spit with chakra to create sticky spider web-like "silk" and infuse sweat with chakra to create a golden metal that could block chakra. --GoDai (talk) 08:31, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

Not so sure - maybe both?
The following seem to be manipulating an element that is able to be generated and controlled through a Nature Transformation, but at the same time, it may not be so in that instance.
 * Deidara had an earth-based jutsu - his famous Exploding Clay - which utilized clay infused with his chakra, which allowed him to detonate them at will. He also had the Iwagakure Kinjutsu, which allowed him to "knead" chakra into materials (therefore energy into matter), like clay. So it seems that he generated clay, then infused it with more chakra.
 * The Two-tails had the ability to control fire. The word "control" is important, as Fire release only allows one to select a shape, then breathe the fire out of the user's mouth (except in the case of Amaterasu). Blaze Release is the nature that allows the manipulation of flames. The phrase "Fire Release" is not placed in front of any of the Two-Tails' techniques (actually hardly any of the techniques are named on the spot). Is this similar to Gaara's case, where the flames have covered Yugito's body on the outside and inside?
 * The Three-tails indirectly controlled water in the form of tidal waves through shockwaves / sonic roars.
 * Utakata's bubble ninjutsu seems to be based on Water Release, considering his affinity. However, his bubble techniques have a wide range of effects, but Water Release has also been seen to be able to control other liquids. The bubble jutsu may also be a unique skill of the Six-tails.
 * The anime seems to like lightning - it has Lightning Fangs, Sword of the Thunder God, and Limelight, which makes Lightning Release seem like a very common and easy element to use...
 * I think the anime should stop using so much lightning and making it seem special.
 * One of the movies also had a Gelel thingy where someone could use Lightning wihout the affinity.
 * I'm really confused with this one - Temari's fan jutsu was classified as Wind Release in the anime - but was it that way in the manga? It more looks like Temari's normal chakra infused with the wind the fan creates, which makes it look like a Wind Release.
 * I think in the anime this guy had a jutsu called Assimilate All Creation Technique and in his battle with Kakashi he copied the properties of a rock. I don't think this should be a Nature Transformation of earth. It is implied he could do this with may other things in nature. He also had a copy of Gaara's jutsu where he used rock powder to imitate sand. I think Earth Release has more of a mud- or moist-soil- theme, and dry-sand/rock- belongs to Shukaku...
 * --GoDai (talk) 08:31, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

On the Temari case, I think some of them were mentioned as Wind Release in databooks, but I can't vouch for that. I wouldn't consider those assimilated techniques. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:31, March 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * On this wikia, Nagare's techniques are being classified as Earth jutsu, which I think is wrong. I think the manga never showed Earth Release users generating and controlling rock. It was mud.--GoDai (talk) 18:55, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

Blaze Release
Amaterasu was stated to be Fire Release. I think Amaterasu isn't Blaze Release itself, but manipulating it is. Blaze Release isn't just a stronger Fire Release, although that's what the name implies (because I strongly believe most advanced natures have names that don't describe the actual effects very well), but Blaze Release seems to be a way to actually manipulate fire (maybe just Amaterasu), unlike Fire Release, which only ignites things by creating fire. So therefore Amaterasu is Fire Release because it only creates black flames that burn everything, but controlling Amaterasu is Blaze Release because Sasuke uses this element to manipulate Amaterasu's shape and "condense" it into shapes, such as spikes. So I think the difference is method and control, not the intensity.--GoDai (talk) 05:14, March 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the huge explanation.

Also, this is just a theory, but if Blaze is a modified version of Fire, Fire Release may be the only one requiring a such modified element. Seeing this: From this analysis, Fire is the only nature which cannot actually manipulate its already-existing element. All four of the other natures are each capable of manipulating their element. Blaze is a nature that allows you to manipulate fire (although possibly exclusively Amaterasu), so it may be an addition to Fire that fills this gap, which would allow all natures to manipulate their element. --GoDai (talk) 01:55, March 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Fire Release produces fire.
 * Blaze Release manipulates fire.
 * Wind Release creates and manipulates wind.
 * Lightning Release produces lightning and/or controls natural lightning (Kirin).
 * Earth Release manipulates already-existing earth and/or produces earth.
 * Water Release manipulates already existing water and/or produces water.

Until Kirin came along, we didn't know Lightning Release could manipulate actual lightning, I wouldn't say that Fire Release can't manipulate natural fire, I think that it's just more convenient to make your own fire, like Lightning Release users usually do with their lightning techniques. I find it highly unlikely that Blaze Release would exist just because Fire Release can't manipulate fire, something I don't believe. I can understand if it's just a way to expand on Amaterasu, but otherwise, I don't see it working. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:01, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah I do it is not very much of a theory until we see that Fire Release is clearly unable to manipulate existing flames, but if the "stronger versions" theory is right, we should consider the main aspect of elements, such as heat and intensity for Fire. If Blaze Release turns out to be indeed just a stronger version of Fire Release, it would only be that way for the intensity of the flames. The stronger versions should look distinct from their original elements, but at the same time amplify their key characteristics.--GoDai (talk) 04:58, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

I was thinking, and I hope this properly supports my theory. Blaze Release isn't a literally stronger Fire Release, since we saw no changes in intensity when Sasuke used Kagutsuchi using the flames on the ribs of Susanoo which had been ignited earlier using Amaterasu. Amaterasu is a Fire, and Kagutsuchi is a Blaze. If there are no temperature/intensity changes seen so far, I think it is safe to assume for now that Blaze does not increase intensity. Sasuke uses Amaterasu with his left eye, and his right eye uses Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi with those flames. Since the only difference is the shaping of the flames, I do not think Blaze would be Fire + Fire even if the kanji is written that way, because I believe the intensity isn't the difference, but rather either Wind or Lightning(probably) (or Yin and Yang according to the fanon theory) would somehow aid in manipulating the flames (Wind would compress, Lightning would "flow through," etc.).

If not stronger, it has to be better in some way, either more versatile, or more resistant against something than regular Fire Release. Between wind, lightning and yin-yang, I'd say yin-yang is the best theory. Sasuke doesn't have Wind Release, and Blaze Release is something acquired with the Sharigan, which isn't an element combining kekkei genkai. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:07, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

Other possibilities
I know there were already sound-based techniques, but wouldn't Wind and Lightning provide pressure and vibration (such as in Super Vibrating Lightning Release Sword) respectively for a different kind of Sound? Sound is different from wind and lightning, yet possesses properties of the two chakra natures. I also like this theory because I don't consider either anime or movies as trustworthy canon material, and there are probably more elements to come.--GoDai (talk) 23:52, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Possibly something to do with amplifying the powers of bladed weapons, as both Wind and Lightning can increase the cutting power of bladed weapons, each through different means. Combining the two natures may create chakra ideal for the creation of an extremely powerful Chakra Flow-enhanced weapon.--GoDai (talk) 00:11, April 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * How about "Shock" or "Quake"? Vibration under pressure causes these things, and the slicing effect of Wind could create the "shattering" of air to create shockwaves.--GoDai (talk) 02:19, April 3, 2010 (UTC)

Wouldn't Lightning "refine" Earth into Metal and therefore form a Metal (金; kane) nature, used for Metal Release (金遁; Kinton)? Not the same as Iron Sand or Steel Release, as not all metals are magnetic and all Steel did was increase the hardness of the user's body. This nature would rather produce and/or manipulate metal structures. --GoDai (talk) 01:03, April 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Similar to Wood, Metal is commonly viewed as a classical element, especially in the Chinese elements, which were mentioned in the Five Elements Seal.--GoDai (talk) 01:08, April 3, 2010 (UTC)

I understand the concept of wind and lightning making sound, but I don't think that's how it would happen because all that is required to produce sound is air. The cutting qualities of wind chakra, similar to scissors already shows pressure, and lightning seems unnecessary to add vibration. Physically and symbolically, sound is too close to air/wind to me, so while I understand how it can be done, I think an altered wind is all it takes. If you see, lightning and earth is an alternative theory for Steel Release. All that is known from other sites is that Steel Release allows to harden the body, until the movie is online, we can't say that's the only thing it does. Symbolically, steel and metal are one and the same. If Steel Release was actually canon, I can perfectly picture it doing metal versions of regular Earth Release techniques, just like Yamato does with some Wood Release techniques. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:28, April 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * If you remeber the other sound-based jutsu, one of them was based on vibration: the Vibrating Sound Drill jutsu, which was channeled through the "Melody Arm," presumably through vibration of air. I think it takes more than just wind to create and manipulate a certain type of sound you want. If there was a certain sound-related nature (although may not be the exact same name or effect), I think it would have both the properties of Wind and Lightning, as sound is the compression and rarefaction of air happening at certain frequencies throgh the vibration of a medium. It helps me when I think of a resonator, since Lightning chakra vibrates, and also adds a vibrating effect to Killer Bee's Super Vibrating Lightning Release Swords and Sasuke's Kusanagi Sword: Chidori Katana.--GoDai (talk) 23:30, April 14, 2010 (UTC)

Do you think, symbolically, Masashi Kishimoto would try to fit in all stereotypical classical elements into this table, or rather simply consider the combinations first? Because in the case of "Earth + Water = Wood" or "Water + Fire = Acid," it seems that he does the former, but only changes the names when neccessary to make it make sense. For example, the natures are not named "Energy Release,""Acid Release" or "Molecule Release," they are named Storm, Boil, and Dust respectively for symbolic purposes. The names describe what the combination would seem like in the real world, while their effects seem to only make sense in the sense of chakra in the Naruto world (sorry, I'm trying to find the proper way to word that).--GoDai (talk) 03:30, April 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * So therefore I think instead of trying to figure out what and what makes what first, we should think about what has to be in there first. For example, we can list the most stereotypical elements, then figure out where they go.

Yin and Yang power-up?
Yin and Yang is constantly mentioned as a possible component to "powerful versions" of basic elements, but we barely know anything about it. In the original Five Elements (五大; Godai) of Japan (天, 風, 火, 水, 地; Heaven, Wind, Fire, Water, and Earth), sixth element is known as consciousness (識) and represents oneself and others as opposed to nature (the other five elements). The sixth nature of chakra in the world of Naruto, Yin and Yang, has been viewed to be related to manipulating Spiritual and Physical energies, the "Yin" and "Yang" of chakra. I think this element, like in the traditional "Consciousness," represents the mind and body, not nature. So therefore I don't see any proof of this element being used for "power-ups" of elements, and I don't know where this idea came from in the first place. Looks like pure fanon to me.--GoDai (talk) 01:33, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's fanon because so little was established on it by canon. Nonetheless, it was called as a form of nature manipulation, which in turn would make sense for "stronger" elements. It would be a combination of two natures, an basic element and Yin Yang. There's this theory I saw once that suggested that Blaze Release would be a blend of Fire Release and Yin, the dark and obscure, since Sasuke has often been described as having a cold chakra, and since Yin Yang doesn't appear to behave the way other natures do, it might not require a kekkei genkai to perform, but would still be able to be blended with other elements. It's likely that it won't turn out to be this, but it's a very good theory. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:53, April 5, 2010 (UTC)

Dark Release
So far, all advanced natures had names that made sense in real life. I really can't see how any combination of Fire, Wind, Lightning, Earth, or Water could produce "Dark (冥; gloomy, night)." Also, this element does not manipulate its own element, but rather steals another. I understand that in your theory Lightning plus itself is the only thing that makes sense, but to me, it is still very confusing. This might rather be an element that is not a product of two others, but a special (possibly pseudo-) element only accessible through the kekkei genkai. I think it might be a certain variation on Yin and Yang, manipulating the physical and spiritual energies to a high degree in order to manipulate the chakra of another. Otherwise, it may be Fire + Wind (or some other logical combination), as blue flames are seen in Dark Release: Judgment, and Wind may provide a "vacuum" effect in Dark Release: Inhaling Maw. Also, the mark on Hiruko's hand used for this technique seems to be "burning" when in use. "An inferno sucking in another's energy" comes to mind. --GoDai (talk) 06:39, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * I had to fit it in somewhere, that's the place I found it. I also put a Yin Yang alternative theory, but still related to basic lightning chakra, since we don't know how actual Yin Yang chakra functions and behaves. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:53, April 5, 2010 (UTC)

Completion using Movie Natures
If the 6th Naruto movie was official and the Three-Tails filler arc wasn't, it could be possible that the new movie natures complete the current element fusion table. If Crystal isn't official and Dark, Steel, and Swift are, these three could perfectly fit in, although not so obvious or clear in some areas. If there are simply only 10 different combinations of elements, there are only 4 unclear spaces left, considering Storm is Water + Lightning and Dust is Earth + Wind. --GoDai (talk) 20:47, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Fire + Lightning = Blaze : Many expect this combination to revolve around Light, Heat, Radiation, and/or Plasma. These are all characteristics of the sun also. Amaterasu is said to represent the "Material World and Light" (物質界と光, Busshitsukai to Hikari), as well as being named after the Japanese Sun Goddess. Blaze Release is based on Amaterasu, as well as resembling forked flames (Forked = Lightning). These two are also Sasuke's two available natures, as well as Sasuke being able to manipulate the shape of Lightning (Chidori) very well, he could do so with Blaze if Lightning is a component.
 * Fire + Wind = Dark : Although this could seem majorly weird, if you consider the Dark jutsu we know of so far, it can be understood. Dark Release: Judgment creates light blue flames, and the mark on the user's hand seems to "burn" when using Dark Release jutsu. Also, the name, appearance, and effect of Dark Release: Inhaling Maw hints a relation to Wind and vacuum. In the trailer, the technique is seen absorbing a Rasengan in the form of a vortex/whirlpool. The "Dark" (冥) in Dark Release can represent the underworld, or Hell, which is commonly viewed as an "inferno sucking in souls," indicating how Dark Release techniques absorb chakra.
 * Wind + Lightning = Swift : Following your theory.
 * Earth + Lightning = Steel : If Crystal isn't official.
 * Before smoke came along, I had this theory of Fire and Wind making Dark, but using a symbolical approach: the dark is created by the flame which was blown out by the wind. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:53, April 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * I kinda get it, but if there wasn't a Fire in the first place, wouldn't there already be a Dark? Anyway, "冥; kurai" means more like "gloomy; ghostly; underworld, etc" rather than the Light-and-Darkness kind of Darkness, which would rather be "暗" or "闇". I think the burning of Fire and the vacuum suction of Wind could create the effect of Hell, or the underworld. Fire and Wind could produce a new kind of stronger flame, which is kinda shown in the form of blue flames in Dark Release: Judgment, although that rather represents the Will-o'-Wisp, adding to the gloomy, ghostly theme.--GoDai (talk) 01:03, April 6, 2010 (UTC)

Fire + Wind
Combining the properties of Fire (heat) and Wind (pressure), wouldn't it be able to produce an effect such as "hot air" or "hot wind"? Possibly something like steam, in a manner similar to steam engines (may or may not be related to Han), as in a steam engine, steam is not produced with liquid water, but rather with water molecules inherent to common natural air and wind. Steam also rises from hot objects without the need of liquid water. --GoDai (talk) 06:06, April 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * If you think about it, it's not that much about combining them, but rather putting their properties together, keeping some, but not all. Since adding the Wind to the Fire would just be a bigger fire, I like the idea of a new, "Hot Wind (Wind Release with a superheated effect?)" similar to the difference between Darui's Water + Lightning jutsu and his Storm Release. --GoDai (talk) 02:05, April 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hot wind for me sounds a bit like the Heat Release, an alternative theory for the stronger counterpart table. I wouldn't necessarily say it needs wind, because you'd simply shoot heat. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:07, April 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * I was thinking more of a "burning wind that cuts into the flesh" or something. I believe, according to the gas laws, pressurized gas can go to extreme temperatures. --GoDai (talk) 18:11, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

I do believe Smoke is a good theory, and I had thought about it once, but considering the fact that smoke is produced by Fire anyway, as well as smoke-related techniques having been used in the anime, I just doubt the existence. If Dark is shown to be canon, Dark would be a good theory, and I liked the Fire + Wind = Dark theory of yours. Otherwise, I'm going to have to go with the idea of a "new product." --GoDai (talk) 06:12, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

"Nature" = "Property"
The word "nature (性質; Seishitsu)" in Nature Transformation means something like "property," making Nature Transformation of chakra the changing of its properties. So, elementally-recomposed nature types would be elements with recomposed properties, producing the "blending" of two chakra properties. Therefore:
 * Ice: The thin, sharp, and compressed (Wind) property applied to Water
 * Wood: The thick, solid (Earth) and fluidly "flowing" (Water) natures
 * Lava: The slow, but still flowing propety of mud (Earth) and the hot property of Fire
 * Storm: The fluid property of Water applied to energy/electricity (Lightning) OR The static property of Lightning applied to clouds (Water) (in the 3rd Shippūden movie)
 * Boil: The burning, deconstructing (Fire) and the dissolving vapour (Water) properties
 * Dust: The cutting and pressing (Wind) and solid and dense (Earth) natures

This could aid in figuring out new elements. The new element produced should keep at least one property of the two original properties. We could also look at the original basic properties:
 * Fire nature/property: Fire, Combusting, Hot, Burning, Deconstructive, Explosive, etc.
 * Wind nature/property: Wind, Air, Pressure, Compressed, Thin, Sharp, Cutting, etc.
 * Lightning nature/property: Electricity, Vibrating, Static, etc.
 * Earth nature/property: Ground, Mud, Solid, Dense, etc.
 * Water nature/property: Water, Fluid, Liquid, Dissolving, Viscosity, Cohesion, etc.

When making assumptions, it would make sense to make sure the new element makes sense both in the name, effect, and properties, as the new nature should possess at least one of each original element's properties.--GoDai (talk) 06:59, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

With information given so far, it is possible to guess how the natures are transformed. To turn normal chakra into:
 * Fire chakra, you increase its temperature, so that it ignites when you exhale it.
 * Wind chakra, you compress and grind it so that it becomes thin and sharp.
 * Lightning chakra, you increase its vibration, so that it gains the characterisitcs of electricity.
 * Earth chakra, you manipulate its density, either soft or hard.
 * Water chakra, you change it into a fluid state (either liquid or vapour) and manipulate its form.

My idea is that to use an advanced element, you must transform chakra in two ways at the same time. For example, if chakra is changed into a fluid form (Water) and compressed (Wind) at the same time, the result is the chakra used for the Ice Crystal Mirrors (Ice). Also, that would make sense for Storm, as chakra would be vibrated more powerfully, but at the same time changed into a fluid state. So:


 * Fire+Wind would be something that is the result of superheating and compressing chakra at the same time.
 * Heat+Pressure=Hot Wind/Steam? (Gas Laws referenced) Thinking of something similar to Wind Release and its effects, such as cutting, but also with a "burning" effect
 * Fire+Lightning would be something that is the result of superheating and vibrating chakra at the same time.
 * Blaze is a theory, as Amaterasu seems to spreadin an uneven manner and is as hot as the sun, which could be hinting the higher temperature than both Fire and Lightning, however, not enough proof and too much contradiction, I guess.
 * Thinking of something like "Sparks" or something that looks like fireworks, flames that "vibrate" and split, like lightning.
 * Wind+Lightning would be something that is the result of compressing/sharpening and vibrating chakra at the same time.
 * Although mentioned several times, thinking of something like "Sound" (combines pressure/rarefaction withy vibration, and normal Wind techniques were incapable of manipulating sound itself alone)
 * Would be extremely effective for bladed weapons with Chakra Flow.
 * Earth+Lightning would besomething that is the result of manipulating density and vibrating chakra at the same time.
 * Thinking of Iron Sand, but unlikely, as not referenced to as a nature in the beginning. However, the forking of the iron dust in Iron Sand World Order gives me an idea about this.
 * Still thinking of magnetism, or metal (density+vibration)
 * I doubt Crystal(fulgurites/glass theory), since although effective, it seems to similar to Ice for me and I doubt Kishimoto would create two elements that are extremely similar. --GoDai (talk) 05:21, April 27, 2010 (UTC)

Alternate theories
Do you have more alternate theories prepared for just in case the movie- and/or anime- only natures are proved not to be canon? I would love to some of your ideas on those. (Such as Earth+Lightning or Wind+Lightning) --GoDai (talk) 22:54, April 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * What is the alternate theory for Earth + Lightning if neither Crystal or Steel are canon? --GoDai (talk) 03:17, April 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * I once considered light as a possibility for lightning and wind, because lightning is already closely related to light, and wind because I think light would have a cutting nature. For the lack of better comparison, I'd link it to light sabers. They're light, but they cut through almost everything. I think I even listed it as that at some point, but then I thought that light coming from lightning and fire would be a better theory. For Earth and Lightning, I don't know, there were always possibilities for it from movie and anime, so I never gave it much thought. From the top of my head, all I can think of is things related to magnetism. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:07, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

Light-related things
I don't believe that strongly in a Light Release, even though it has lots of basis. I think Lightning+Water=Storm is Light, or bright energy. I also discovered that it is possible that Storm Release: Laser Circus might not really have explosive properties, since it was used in conjunction with Scythe Weasel, Sand Drizzle, and Red Secret Technique: Machinery Triangles (which had bombs attached to them), and the explosion could have come from the collaboration as a whole, or just simply from Kankuro's Akahigi (I made changes to the page with Storm Release: Laser Circus using this conclusion). And this returns everything to the likelyness of Storm Release manipulating a form of bright fluid energy, which mostly resembles light. I doubt Kishimoto would ever make two extremely similar natures. I theorize that, Storm Release carries the appearance of light, while Amaterasu (Blaze Release) carries the symbolism. Amaterasu represents the "Material World and Light" (物質界と光, Busshitsukai to Hikari), and is named after the sun goddess. With its appearance and symbolism taken by two separate natures/jutsu, I doubt the existence of a Light Release. --GoDai (talk) 03:51, April 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * Light is also already produced by Fire and Lightning, and is therefore inherent to them. --GoDai (talk) 06:08, April 23, 2010 (UTC)

Laws of recomposition?
I think there should be certain standards of making theories, just so we can get a close guess or idea. First, I don't agree that much with Smoke or Light, which I have thought of before. Smoke is actually created while Fire is burning, and therefore is kind of inherent to it. Ice, Wood, Lava, Storm, Boil, and Dust were all new, different elements, and were not inherent to their components, even symbolically. Fire already produces Smoke, and both Fire and Lightning emit Light, which makes me doubt those two elements. Something that has the properties of both Fire and Wind, yet is unique from the two would make sense. It is still possible that the new nature would manipulate smoke, but it would have a different name for symbolic purposes. --GoDai (talk) 05:33, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm thinking of something comtaining the most improtant properties of Fire (heat/combustion) and Wind (pressure/cutting/grinding), and I imagine wind with a mirage-like look, which is superheated air that cuts through things. --GoDai (talk) 21:39, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Like Cloud Release? --Sennoman (talk) 13:04, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Cloud has more to do with water than fire. Smoke is the only thing I found which I believe fits the combo, other than the not-so-likely ash alternative. The reason I listed smoke is because while it can happen with fire alone, it happens much more when there is fire and it's being fanned. I already have radiation and plasma listed as alternatives for Fire and Lightning, I just put light as the main one because out of the three, it's the one I consider more of an element. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:58, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think he might have meant Cloud Release controlling clouds of smoke, but having the name just for symbollic purposes. Either way, that's not what I really meant. For example, Ice, Wood, Lava, Storm, Boil, and Dust are all distinct from their basic component natures, and are not inherent to them. None of those advanced elements happen at all with only one component. Smoke happens with one component, even if not in the most effective way. It has to be something that requires both, and cannot be used by normal people with Fire and Wind natures separately. --GoDai (talk) 22:04, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Depends on what you consider smoke. The first sentence of the article on smoke at wikipedia is as follows: "Smoke is the collection of airborne solid and liquid particulates and gases emitted when a material undergoes combustion or pyrolysis, together with the quantity of air that is entrained or otherwise mixed into the mass". Emphasis is mine. Symbolism aside, wind is air in movement, so in a sense, wind is required for smoke. And if you think about it, air, or at least oxygen is required for the fire to combust. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:12, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * But that kind of sounds like something that can be done through a collaboration justu of Fire and Wind. Anyway, I guess that's pretty good. I just think there's something obvious, but I just can't think of it. --GoDai (talk) 22:15, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Smoke was the obvious thing for me. It was a suggestion by an unregistered user. It fit perfectly. When I searched classical elements in popular culture at wikipedia, I saw that Dungeons and Dragons also has Fire and Wind/Air making Smoke. That sealed the deal to me. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:38, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

That's one of the things that made me guess Smoke first, but D&D uses something that resembles the Greek/Western classical elements (Air, Fire, Water, Earth), and so Water+Earth=Ooze, and other than smoke, ice, lava, or ooze, 8 other combinations are available through positive and negative. In Japanese culture, air is just empty space, and wind is a separately existing substance or force that travels through empty space. The idea is a little different. --GoDai (talk) 22:45, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * I saw the positive and negative as well, but just the fact somewhere the combination exists somewhere felt like a positive sign. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:49, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I guess so, but how about compressed, superheated air? --GoDai (talk) 22:59, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Patterns
There are some patterns seen in the formation of the advanced natures, which could aid in figuring out unknown ones.
 * Chakra is changed in the two ways that the two components are transformed at the same time. Example: Lava could be formed by superheating and changing the density-like mud-and composition of chakra at the same time.
 * The result is something that is the only obvious new product that could be formed. Example: Earth+Water is Wood, not mud, as mud is only a mixed form of the two which can be produced by using the two natures separately, or just Earth in Naruto.
 * The result is not inherent to jutsu of the already-existing basic element. Example: (In canon) Water jutsu cannot create ice or bright fluid energy, Earth cannot create wood or manipulate molecules, Fire cannot create lava, etc.
 * This is why I doubt Light and Smoke, even though they are good theories. A Fire jutsu can create smoke without the use of a Wind jutsu, and a Lightning jutsu create light without the use of a Fire justu. They could still be new natures, but something has to be different about them from what the already-existing natures can do.
 * The name of the new element is basic and simple, even if it is not the best way to explain the effects. Example: Storm is bright fluid energy, Dust is molecules, and Boil is acidic gas.
 * If something like Plasma or Radiation was an element, they probably would have something more simplified.
 * The name of the new nature only has to make sense by the names, and not the effects in the World of Naruto.
 * In real life, Water+Lightning=Storm, Earth+Wind=Dust, and Water+Fire=Boil all make sense, even though water and electricity cannot make bright fluid energy, earth and wind cannot make molecules, and water and fire cannot make acid.
 * Therefore, the effect is often not the literal idea of the name. Example: bright fluid energy for Storm and acid gas for Boil.
 * The new nature possesses at least one important property of each of the two components. Example: Storm has fluidity and energy, Wood has change in composition and density, and "fluid" growth.

Just because that is a pattern, it doesn't mean that's the one. Maybe there is another pattern that would emerge if some of the theories are confirmed. Maybe there's no need to have such a pattern. I never thought I'd say this, but I think you're trying a bit too hard to see something. I looked for additions that summed up a reasonable theory and listed it. I think it's unnecessary to look for such an elaborate and intricate exact science behind them. We don't even know if there is something defining if A + B = C other than Kishimoto's "does this make any sense?" approach to it. We already have some ground rules for how they work, no need to make an entire Constitution out of it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:19, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

Well I guess so, and sorry if this was a bother. I was just thinking about Smoke, and now that I think of it, I'm not quite sure if I saw a Fire jutsu release smoke. Have you seen that anywhere? If a Fire jutsu cannot make smoke on its own, I would definitely consider Smoke as an advanced element. --GoDai (talk) 21:00, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

Just when stuff is set ablaze, or the fire kicks up smoke from hitting the ground. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:47, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm, maybe then Smoke Release will be different in a way that it only produces smoke with no requirement, and it will be able to manipulate it like wind. I think the fact that "Fire Release jutsu do not produce smoke with no fuel other than chakra" is key, and therefore no smoke is produced when it doesn't touch anything else. --GoDai (talk) 23:17, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

Magnetism
The word "nature (性質; Seishitsu)" in Nature Transformation is meant to indicate something like "property," as what I have mentioned above. If the Third Kazekage had a magnetic chakra, isn't that a property transformation? The Iron Sand kekkei genkai may be some kind of derived form, or another name, of this magnetic nature. --GoDai (talk) 00:03, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

What about this
What do you think about after a element is build up the user change it's proprieties like the Boil Release, for example, may be in gasous form or liquid form, or something like thatThe ultimate fan of NARUTO welimer2 00:42, May 14, 2010 (UTC)