Talk:Sage Mode

Slug Sage Mode?
Considering it's been confirmed that slugs (Katsuyu) come from the Shikkotsu Forest in the most recent chapter, and that is the only other place besides Mount Myoboku (Toads) and the Ryuchi Cave (Snakes) where you can learn Sage Mode. Logically, the third version of Sage Mode that Hashirama Senju used is probably Slug Sage Mode. But since it isn't confirmed, it cannot be added. But I think it's worthy of being put into the trivia. Thoughts anyone? 01:08, June 21, 2013 (UTC)

I think what your saying sounds logical but like you said it's unconfirmed.Although im not a 100% sure about putting it in a trivia without further proof.Whiteraven1 (talk) 01:17, June 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * See the discussion on Hashirama's talk page. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:47, June 21, 2013 (UTC)

Where do you get the "only place to learn Sage Mode" for all we know, someone can learn Sage Mode in their bed at home while watching TV.--Elveonora (talk) 11:31, June 21, 2013 (UTC) Because, Kabuto stated there are only 3 places to learn Sage Mode. From the toads at Mount Myoboku, the snakes in the Ryuchi Cave, and from the Shikkotsu Forest. Which has been recently confirmed to posses slugs. Considering Naruto learned Toad Sage Mode from toads at Mount Myoboku, Kabuto learned Snake Sage Mode from snakes at the Ryuchi Cave, and Hashirama Senju has a third version of sage mode that we've never seen. Logically, it is Slug Sage Mode. 14:13, June 21, 2013 (UTC) @Elveonora
 * Not true. Kabuto said he found the Ryūchi Cave which was equally as famous as Mount Myōboku and Shikkotsu Forest. Saying that those are the only places to learn Sage Mode is akin to saying that only Konoha-nin can learn Sage Mode then.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:34, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Absorving natural chakra as its secundary effects, almost impossible to be learned alone, because most of the people don't know that is even possible to absorve natural chakra and how to do it, it as to be teached or seen, and those three places being mentioned as the only places that someone could learn to absorve natural chakra i don't remember. Hashirama could easely observed how frogs do it, like Minato did with Rasengan inspiring into Tailed-Beast Bomb, and being Hashirama the most brilliant shinobi ever since Rikudou, he could developed his own Sage Mode. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 14:46, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's the point, there's no proof any animal taught him that. He could have managed to learn it by himself, theoretically--Elveonora (talk) 15:11, June 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah but besides if {a big if} Hashirama managed to create his own sage mode then what should his sage mode be called.Should it be called the Senju sage mode.Don't get me wrong im still debating about the whole Slug Sage Mode thing.But if it's later confirmed that this isn't slug sage mode then this is what it should be called.74.89.213.43 (talk) 16:36, June 21, 2013 (UTC)

I highly doubt ANYONE even him can simply learn on his own sage mode. That is a ridiculous assumption. I believe he was taught by somebody one way or another ItachiWasAHero (talk) 05:55, July 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * This is an easy one, couldn't resist. Logic says, that there has to be first of something every time. Who was the first Sage ever (any species) taught by? Bingo, someone had to come up with it, that alone confirms it's possible to be self-taught--Elveonora (talk) 17:09, July 18, 2013 (UTC)

Well, that is true. We will just have to wait and see what explanation is given for it if any. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 22:15, July 18, 2013 (UTC)

Reverting
Okay, there has been this small revert war happening where Hashirama's Sage Mode is being changed to Wood Sage Mode. Stop this now and explain why someone would want to change it to Wood Sage Mode. Joshbl56 12:33, July 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * There is no discussion here, someone is simply putting a fanon name in because they think it sounds better. The only person to use that particular Sage Mode was Hashirama and until Kishi decides an official name for it, we will continue to call it "Hashirama Senju's Sage Mode". --Speysider Talk Page 12:47, July 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * fanon name? Seriously? -.- Look at his Sage Art: Wood Release: True_Several Thousand Hands, and notice that unless he has Wood/Trees Sage Mode, there is no other explanation for this. Besides, calling it 'Hashirama Senju's Sage Mode' sounds pretty stupid. Next time, try to think before canceling an edit. 13:37, July 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Shima's technique is called Sage Art: Wind Release Dust Cloud, her Sage Mode isn't Wind Release because of that. All Sage Modes with a confirmed origin stem from summoned animals. There's absolutely no evidence that his Sage Mode stems from his Wood Release. I'd suggest you try taking your own advice. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:58, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

Gamakichi?
Seeing as he has been described as using a Senjutsu attack, should we list him as a user of Sage Mode? I mean, maybe we ought to wait for the better translations, but I think it's pretty clear there. --ScruffyC – Ash &#34;Scruffy&#34; Chancellor, the man who will become the world&#39;s greatest video game designer and change the world y&#39;know! (talk) 05:56, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, shouldn't only humans be listed as Sage Mode users? The Toad Sages use senjutsu without transforming and databook 3 only listed Jiraiya as a user of "Sage Mode", despite the toads being mentioned as users of senjutsu.--BeyondRed (talk) 22:04, August 7, 2013 (UTC)


 * I think, toads use senjutsu without transforming into sage mode. They are original user of senjutsu, they dont need to transform but humans transform to use senjutsu.--Salamancc (talk) 22:56, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * They do have to gather natural energy to use senjutsu though. The fact animals were not listed as users of Sage Mode does raise an important question. Has there been any reference in the manga of animals entering Sage Mode? Or do they only make senjutsu chakra and use senjutsu? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:40, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * One can't use senjutsu without sage mode tho. I don't think they are in an empowered state all the time. As stated, they also need to gather natural energy. And Fukasaku was strong enough to lift a giant boulder. With such strength, he would not have been killed by Pain, suggesting he was in normal mode when hit.--Elveonora (talk) 11:10, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * They need gather natural energy but they dont need to enter sage mode. Sage Mode is a technique which used by only humans.--Salamancc (talk) 18:44, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * Says who? Unless it's stated in canon, you just made it up. Gathering natural energy and balancing it EQUALS Sage Mode, there's no difference. The latter results as a consequence of the from former--Elveonora (talk) 18:55, August 8, 2013 (UTC)

Right back at you, Elve. Where was it stated in the manga that animals needed Sage Mode to preform techniques like that? Anywhere? I actually question why we add animals to Sage Mode myself. It seems that animals can more naturally use natural energy and sage techniques without needing the transformation their human counterparts require. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20:17, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) What part exactly? We know the toads need to gather natural energy because we've seen them do it. The fact which appears to have sparked this discussion is that Shima and Fukasaku are not listed as Sage Mode users in the Third Databook, despite some of their techniques being listed as senjutsu. That would imply that Sage Mode is a state in which humans are able to use senjutsu, and that animals, while also capable of using senjutsu, are not considered users of Sage Mode. We have to fine comb through mentions of senjutsu. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:20, August 8, 2013 (UTC)


 * That's what I'm getting at. Completely agreed with Omni. Animals can do senjutsu without Sage Mode, which, makes the human users look more animal-like I might add. It'd be sort of... redundant? to make an animal go through a similar process. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 20:29, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't forget that there's the whole issue of Jūgo's clan's ability, and cursed seal being a mock senjutsu as well to murk up the subject a bit more. I'm half expecting Sasuke to be explained about some of it in coming chapters, only for us to learn that he can once again use his cursed seal over the flesh transplant he got from Jūgo way back when Taka was hunting Killer B, so he can have "senjutsu"/mock senjutsu that can damage Obito. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:38, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * Except humans are animals as well guys.--Elveonora (talk) 21:54, August 8, 2013 (UTC)

It seems like only animals that can be summoned (like the toads and snakes) are the ones that can use senjutsu naturally and also teach it since they can naturally absorb the natural energy. If it was all animals then I'm pretty sure the entire Inuzuka clan would be able to into sage mode since they are always with dogs. As for Jūgo, I thought it was mentioned that, while he can absorb natural chakra, he can't control it like the toads/snakes and that's why he goes on rampages? Joshbl56 22:19, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * Not everything is to be seen always through the scientific lens Elv. Josh, they did mention his clan couldn't control it, but the cursed seals Orochimaru made, some of its bearers could control it. See Sound Five, Sasuke. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:23, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * True that some could control it but it was shown that even Sasuke had trouble in the beginning (remember him trying to break Zaku's arms?). Going by the actual page, it mentions that Orochimaru created a method to actually help the body get accustom to the curse seal.  Joshbl56  22:33, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Omni, that's right, this is a fiction after all. But Kishi seems to have at least a basic grasp about biology and stuff. We weren't told humans have a creator in Narutoverse after all ;) and the whole Kekkei Genkai stuff is a strange twist on evolution. Anyway, I'm really sorry to ruin your little speculation guys, but "all animal techniques = senjutsu" is wrong, as Water Release: Gunshot wasn't listed as senjutsu. One who can absorb, balance and control/use natural energy is by default a Sage and since Shima and Fukasaku had to restore it, they aren't under enhancements all the time and as such, when they are, they enter Sage Mode. 3rd databook omitting them is strange, but it might as well be an overlook. It's called "sage mode" not "animal mode" and as far as I'm aware, their nickname is "great sage toads" and since they use senjutsu, it refers to that, not anything else.--Elveonora (talk) 13:09, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Where is the difficulty in realizing that frogs and other species mentioned as using natural energy don't enter into Sage Mode but only humans? But as @Elv said and @TTF both theories discussed here are not explicit anywhere. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 14:02, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

Again sucking natural energy and getting chakra upgraded to senjutsu chakra = sage mode. So they DO.--Elveonora (talk) 18:01, August 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * They don't have Sage Mode. At all. The databook left off the toads for a reason. They can't use Sage Mode. They can use Senjutsu. They can use natural energy. But they cannot use Sage Mode. There is a difference. Humans who mold natural energy with their spiritual and mental energies when they're forming chakra, enter Sage Mode. Or did you miss that entire arc? I'm with Omni on this one. I'm in favor of removing the toads, any any non-human animals for that matter, from the list of Sage Mode users. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:44, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Jesus, what is this coming to? What you propose is completely nonsensical. You are basically making stuff up to fit many years old databook not listing them. They are listed since forever, and no one has had a problem with it until now. Re-read the fu*king chapter where Fukasaku lifts a giant boulder, thanks to Sage Mode of course--Elveonora (talk) 21:48, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Read that. Not Sage Mode. He used natural energy, which, we've establish that while that may be a pre-requisite of Sage Mode, does not equate to using Sage Mode. Jūgo's clan and what not. Sorry, you still haven't shown me where any thing but a human has used Sage Mode. And if you can't use anything other than your personal bias and speculation to back it up, I don't see that happening soon. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:58, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Edit: I might add that the feat you were referring to, I'm guessing without re-reading it to actually see if it fit your point, Fukasaku was demonstrating the effects of Natural Energy. At that point, Naruto hadn't even begun training for Sage Mode yet. He was just explaining how Natural Energy works. So... there's that. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 22:03, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't anger me please. For the last time, they don't use just pure natural energy, but senjutsu chakra, which by default makes their bodies enter sage mode. Read this http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Fukasaku#Sage_Mode_-_Jutsu_List it appears to have been brought up at least once as I learned. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Shima and Fukasaku's techniques are listed in databook to be senjutsu, right? If they aren't then you have a point. Otherwise, you are grasping at straws to fit what you want. Basically what you are saying is that after eating food, they don't let out cra* but something else--Elveonora (talk) 22:07, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * This whole argument is amusing. All you use is your own speculation to fuel your debates. But, as with all fun things, they must come to an end. Fukasaku and Shima aren't listed as users of Sage Mode, nor is the Great Toad Sage, yet Jiraiya and Naruto are listed in the Databook. Also, um, Orochimaru uses this Senjutsu you're referring to; can't use Sage Mode. Apparently Jūgo's clan can use senjutsu chakra, can't use Sage Mode. You're at the end of your ropes here. Let's review, though, for good measure, and just so everyone else can see how stupid this is;
 * Sage Mode = The use of Natural energy in perfect tandum with mental energy and physical energy, during the formation of chakra, which results in the ability to use a heightend transformation called Sage Mode. This always results in at least some physical changes on its human users.
 * Frogs. No physical transformations.
 * Snakes that we've seen (Great White Snake Sage). No physical transformation.
 * No where in the databook are anything other than the human users listed as users of Sage Mode, despite the fact that the book came out AFTER Sage Mode was explained, so Kishi had every right to list them if he thought they used it.
 * Manga makes no mention of toads using Sage Mode anywhere, but rather, they seem apply senjutsu directly, since they don't need a transformation to preform it. And all mentions that have been brought up here are of toads using pure natural energy, which Elve has yet to rebut.
 * Orochimaru uses natural energy AND senjutsu chakra, can't use Sage Mode.
 * Jūgo's clan can use natural energy, can't use Sage Mode.
 * Plain and simple, they don't use Sage Mode. They should be removed. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 22:13, August 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * Don't confuse yourself please. Orochimaru clearly is a user of Sage Mode, what we were told is that he couldn't find a strong host body to hold it, never that he couldn't ever use it himself. In fact, go back and check him sucking out Senjutsu chakra from Kabuto again and cursed seals possessing his senjutsu chakra, both which wouldn't be possible had he not learned it
 * Apparently Jugo clan member's bodies absorb natural energy, they were never stated to be using senjutsu
 * Are you being silly now? Frogs already have frog eyes, so you want them to get an extra pair of frog eyes or more pronounced frog eyes? The mode isn't about physical change, but body being empowered by senjutsu chakra. By your logic Hashirama isn't a user of Sage Mode either because there are no tentacles coming out from his arse for your amusement--Elveonora (talk) 22:34, August 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * Maybe in your world, Elve, but Kabuto and Sasuke both said Orochimaru couldn't use Sage Mode, so he can't. We can go through the "what-ifs" all day, but the point is; he can't use it. So, until you can point me to somewhere in the manga that says toads or any other non-human uses Sage Mode, they don't use it. On the other hand, I can actually point you to things in the manga that prove my points. List above being proof. Facts have that funny feature to them. You can refute speculation all day, but when proven a list of facts, the only rebuttal you have are, and I quote, "By your logic Hashirama isn't a user of Sage Mode either because there are no tentacles coming out from his arse for your amusement." Oh, and just for good measure, the reason I know Hashirama has Sage Mode, is because his eyes gain Sage marks around them, and... uh... he calls his transformation Sage Mode. Unlike any toad I've seen thus far. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 22:44, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ignore evidence and the context for as long as you want, doesn't make it more valid. One can't have senjutsu chakra and not be in Sage Mode, that's a fact. And don't make me laugh, so: "I said so, therefore it's true" is a fact? The only "fact" is that 3rd databook doesn't list them as users. But for all I care, make them cursed princes--Elveonora (talk) 23:07, August 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * Very well, I think everyone else can see for themselves what the facts are. And I can see that you're stuck in your own realm of speculation so to continue this argument further would be pointless. Now then, I'll ask anyone else here if they have a voice, because the consensus, so far, is that non-humans don't have Sage Mode. Anyone else have any thoughts. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 23:09, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

I'll just throw my two cents in here too. This is how I see it. If we are calling Fukasaku and Shima users of Sage Mode, why can't we call Gamakichi one as well. What qualifications does Fukasaku and Shima have over Gamakichi? Both don't seem to enter a Sage Mode when they use Senjutsu, and they both can use Senjutsu chakra. The way I see it, either Gamakichi can be considered able to use Sage Mode, or Fukasaku and Shima can't necessarily be said to. Omega64 (talk) 23:12, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

Suggesting me to be autistic and speaking of me in 3rd person doesn't add up to your credibility. Let's say there's an equal amount of evidence for and against. Now, how about instead of a removal would we put up a notice there that it may be false? Again, Suki himself explained it. By the laws established in the scripture of Naruto, using Senjutsu chakra makes you enter Sage Mode. Not only there have been a few errors in the databooks, but not everything is in there. A removal would confuse many people. Good luck explaining it once someone comes asking why aren't they listed as users anymore since they were for half a decade or so. Well, the answer will be just because one guy called Ten Fox who appears once in a while decided as such--Elveonora (talk) 23:21, August 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * The only people I see asking anything, is why they're even listed to begin with. Care to explain that? Also, side note, I edit here more or less everyday. Check my contributions if you don't believe so. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 23:28, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

The way I see it, if the toad crew are listed as users of Sage Mode due to the ability to use senjutsu chakra, then Orochimaru should be listed as a user on the basis of that criteria alone. With that said, Elve's point would be correct. Add Orochimaru, otherwise, the toads should be removed. With that point, T.T. Fox would be correct in the sense that there was no transformation in them. Either way we go, we would have a standard to uphold. Simply put:
 * Keep the Toads as users = Add Oro to keep a balanced standard that users are those who simply use senjutsu chakra.
 * OR

What's my opinion on the matter? : I agree with Elve. Keep the Toads as users; add Orochimaru as a user. I mean, he was quoted "learning sage mode, but never being able to master it due to weakness of his body. Thus (as Kabuto stated) he was an imperfect sage." Plus he puts senjutsu chakra to use. KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 23:32, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Remove the toads due to the fact that they weren't officially confirmed to be user of Sage Mode anyway.
 * Kabuto and Sasuke noted that Orochimaru couldn't use Sage Mode. Elevenora stated that Orochimaru wasn't in a body that could use Sage Mode, yet we've come to learn that his cursed seals use Senjutsu and he can use senjutsu chakra, yet cannot use Sage Mode in his body. Seeking someone out to learn Sage Mode and actually using Sage Mode aren't the same things. So that blows Elve's theory right out of the water. Also don't know where I suggested he was autistic, so that's just wow, incredible. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 23:35, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Interpret it anyway you want. Kabuto states that Orochimaru couldn't find the right body and that Orochimaru couldn't become a perfect sage. That's a fact. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 23:39, August 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * And now I'll thank you for proving my point. You realize what you're suggesting right? Orochimaru isn't in a body, nor never was in one that could use Sage Mode, and you're trying to suggest to me that that means he can use Sage Mode. But why use logic? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 23:42, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Fox, your point isn't proven at all, and your the one who's missing the logic. Since when did this difference between Sage Mode and Senjutsu ever came up? From day one it was believed that one came with the other...that by producing senjutsu chakra, you gain sage mode...now this may come to different degrees of control/perfection...Jiraiya was an imperfect one, but he gained enough control to use it battle, soo there's nothing against Oro simply having lesser skill over it...the points are: Just because a person didn't master it, doesn't mean he can't use it...also if he could create the cursed seals, which produce senjutsu chakra, Orochimaru's senjutsu chakra, that can only be gained by sage mode, his sage mode. In terms of the toads, it's the same...unless you can prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt: Senjutsu =/= Sage Mode, no one can separate these...so to wrap it up...keep the toads and add Orochimaru. Darksusanoo (talk) 23:49, August 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't even know what you were trying to say there. At the beginning you said that Senjutsu = Sage Mode (which is insanity because Orochimaru can use Senjutsu but not Sage Mode, and the same for Jūgo's clan), and then at the end, you say they're not the same thing, which is actually closer to the truth. We all agree that Orochimaru can't use Sage Mode. He's looking for a body to be able to use Sage Mode in, but there is no dispute that he has, nor never had before, no ability to use Sage Mode at all, yet his several of his techniques use Senjutsu chakra. The Toads can't use Sage Mode, nor can Orochimaru. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 23:53, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Fox, please stop trying to mince up everyone's words. Juugo's clan is irrelevant. Senjutsu is the perfect mixture of chakra and natural energy. Juugo's clan only absorb Natural Energy to empower themselves. There's nothing more to it. Dark, Elve, and I, are right in terms of Senjutsu usage = a Sage. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 00:00, August 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * Oh, you're absolutely right, where did I go wrong? Sasuke and Kabuto? Psh! Forget what they said. Forget the fact that Orochimaru actually couldn't use Sage Mode, as the manga itself states, yet could use Senjutsu techniques, like the manga itself states. But who cares about that, right? I mean, the databook only lists human users, despite the fact that toads had already been shown using Senjutsu when it came out, and that doesn't mean anything apparently either, because you guys can just decide which facts you want to keep and which facts you don't. Right? I'm glad, though, that everyone else will get to read this. Makes for a pretty amusing read, if you ask me. And breaking up people's words is how you show the flaws in their arguments, which you have yet to try with anything I've stated. I've asked for simple things; a page, or pages, of the manga or a databook that prove anything related to Toads using Sage Mode, or Orochimaru using Sage Mode. Just provide me with something that says that, and I will happily bow out. After all, I can provide you with a trove of pages and references, yet you have not one. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 00:06, August 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * I never said that senjutsu and sage mode were different at any point...and we're not even sure what Jugo's clan can do. Also what most of the people did here was assume that since Oro can't use Sage Mode in full, he simply can't use it, yet by some stretch of mind he can use senjutsu, (which translated means Sage Techniques, geez i wonder if that's a hint?). Here's another example, we have Naruto listed as a user of the Tailed Beast Rasengan, yet, he at best completed the technique by 50%, and was never able to used it in combat. Another thing, from what was stated...to enter sage mode, your body has to mix the three energies and produce senjutsu chakra, and you don't even have to fully balance it to use it. What's your reasoning to assume toads don't use sage mode? No animal traits? They are the animals those traits are based on. Do you have irrefutable proof, beyond Kabuto's vague statements that senjutsu and sage mode are two diiferent things? Does the databook explicitily say these two are different? Does the manga? Also you're the one who's trying to claim that sage mode and senjutsu are different things, hence burden of proof lies with you. Also tone down your statements, your being patronizing. Darksusanoo (talk) 00:16, August 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * Its patronizing to ask for proof? Some flat out states that Orochimaru can't use Sage Mode in the manga, you lot say that by some act of God in Heaven, he can use Sage Mode, and all the sudden, boom, Sage Mode. Tell you what, I'm going to prove my points by getting every single reference I've referred to just to show you how absolutely ludicrous you three are being, and we'll see if you can refute fact with fact. Be back in a few minutes. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 00:19, August 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * People stop going off the main issue of animals being able to use sage mode. As for my input, this matter was already cleared up in that link Elevenora provided to fukusaku's page. Unless you are disputing what shounensuki said at the end of the discussion, I see no point to this just because animals weren't listed as users in the databook. — S im A nt 00:21, August 10, 2013 (UTC)

(Restarting indents) Here's the proof I have regarding Toads as Sages, Orochimaru's dealings with Sage Mode, and so on;


 * "With Senjutsu, ya take that internal chakra and augment it with 'natural energy', creating a new, more powerful form of chakra and all of 'yer ninjutsu, genjutsu, and even your hand-to-hand skill'll get a serious power-up. So ya got spiritual, physical, and natural from the outside. Techniques using chakra coming from those three sources are called 'Senjutsu'." - Fukasaku; Naruto 409 pages 11-12
 * Proof that Senjutsu chakra and techniques =/= Sage Mode. In fact, at that point in the chapter, Sage Mode hasn't even been brought up yet.


 * "Yes! That dark pigmentation is the sign of a Sage! He did it!" - Fukasaku; Naruto 418 page 8
 * Proof that at least some manner of physical transformation is present in Sage Mode. Which no frogs have. Funny, that's awkward.... since a frog said it. And yet, you guys claim they don't need it. Not using Sage Mode, then? I think so.

Now I'll deal with Orochimaru specifically;


 * "Orochimaru-sama tried to gain this ability, but he never found a body that could bear its power. So... he couldn't become a complete Sage in the end... like me'!" - Kabuto; Naruto 579 pages 16-17
 * Hmm.... self explanatory to me.


 * "There is no need to explain things to me... I put my own Senjutsu chakra within the cursed seals and my consciousness with them." - Orochimaru; Naruto 593 page 8}}
 * Proof that Orochimaru can use Senjutsu chakra without Sage Mode, as Kabuto's quote directly above proved he could not.

Anything I missed? ~ Ten Tailed Fox 00:44, August 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * Geez...everything...if anything you only added to lack of difference between both.


 * Powerup to taijutsu, genjutsu and ninjutsu...producing senjutsu chakra by using spiritual, physical and natural energy...sage mode basics, all of it. Unless you're can say that the exact same process and gained benefits can be brought by two different powerups, which is throwing logic out the window, hell the what's the meaning of sage mode at all?


 * They don't have the physical frog traits...because they are frogs...when did that miss you? They all have the slits and natural pigmentation around the eyes. Your proof only refers that a physical transformation appears on humans, which is almost identical to a toad's natural look.


 * Kabuto said he couldn't become a complete Sage, yet we know that there are incomplete Sages like Jiraiya. If Kabuto had said Oro couldn't learn it, or that he couldn't become a Sage i'd agree...but Kabuto said he couldn't become a complete/perfect Sage...in other words he said he became a Sage, simply not at the same degree as him. If anything that statement said that Oro simply couldn't master it, not that he was unable to use it.


 * And the last bit, Oro never confirmed that he couldn't use sage mode, and since the above statement is already flawed...yeah.

For a guy who's always talking about facts, you twisted them beyond reason here. Darksusanoo (talk) 01:20, August 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * And ^ that is where you all fail. You using your personal opinions. I provided page numbers, quotes, and facts. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:23, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Edit: Also, do you notice how you mentioned Frog transformations, when Fukasaku specifically is talking about the markings around his eyes? Orochimaru mentioned using Senjutsu chakra, when in the quote above Kabuto says he hasn't yet to find a body that can use Sage Mode, which backs up the first quote, which is that Senjutsu and Sage Mode aren't one in the same, aren't used interchangeably, and can be used apart from each other. Don't believe it? Provide me with some proof that I'm wrong. I've got all the proof I'm right. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:26, August 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay, I'm going to go ahead and say that I agree with Fox that senjutsu doesn't equal Sage Mode but I do want to point out something Darksusanoo said: And the last bit, Oro never confirmed that he couldn't use sage mode. Since it's basically been pointed out that we neither know or don't know if Orochimaru can use sage mode, isn't this all speculation for now? All we have right now is Kabuto saying he didn't become a complete sage and I say we stick with that. Put it in trivia on this page for now and pack this up until Orochimaru finally does pulls a Sage Mode or another databook comes out that says he is able to do it. Until then, lets stop the talk about Orochimaru and talk about the animals. Joshbl56  01:37, August 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * Ten-Tailed fox, those interpretations of those references were REALLY biased... I completely agree with Darksusanoo (and why does he need to add page numbers etc to provide a different view of the same refs you brought up?). — S im A nt 01:40, August 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * The proof is in your own statements...Kabuto said Oro couldn't become a complete sage, not that he couldn't become one...your quote...there are different degrees to that...again i refer to Jiraiya who wasn't one either. Oro never denied being capable of using sage mode. The physical traits thing is completely moot since a toad can't become more toad. You're proof is vague...neutral at best...you're interpreting it as no, i can interpret it as yes. Unless someone who knows what they are talking about can explicitily explain that these two things are different you're talking to the walls. Darksusanoo (talk) 01:41, August 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * They aren't bias at all. I'm taking those quotes to be literally Kishi's intention. If using quotes from a series about the subject at hand is bias, then there's no point debating anything about the information presented here, because you'll just pick and choose what you want and go with it. The reason I want him to provide me with page numbers or something other than his personal opinion is because I'm trying to understand his logic. I've said over and over and over again, if he can do that, I'll at least know where he's coming from and I'll back down, but every time I do, all I get is more personal opinions, whether its from him or Elvenora. They can't just say, "Here, look here and this is what it says." And that's literally all it takes, but I still haven't seen them. And the reason I haven't, and they know it just as well, is because those points do not exist in anything but their own opinion. It doesn't exist in the manga, in a databook. Heck, it doesn't even exist in the anime, yet I'm supposed to take it and shut up when, on the other hand, I do have statements from the manga. I do have a databook entry that has purposely excluded the toads. Orochimaru is iffy, but I at least support my claims with pages of the manga. But apparently finding quotes that fit my argument is bias. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:46, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Here's the thing @Fox...your own quotes don't prove anything...you're the one trying to prove the difference...it's your job to present the evidence...and your's is again vague...none, i mean none are conclusive...the bias here is not you providing the quotes (the fact that you did is commendable and proof of your hard work and something i'll try do to more in the future) it's your interpretation of it...none of them say you can't use senjutsu without sage mode, not even the databook...if it said something along the lines of "toad however do not require Sage Mode to use Senjutsu" or "toads can use senjutsu through this method, rather than Sage Mode" or something along those lines, hell i'll write you an apology, but until then...and i'm simply taking what you presented and finding the flaws in it...just as you said in this entire discussion. Also @Dan, Jugo and his clan is due to a specific genetic condition...Darksusanoo (talk) 02:04, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Dark and everyone else that defends that Senjutsu = Natural Chakra is Sage Mode, Jūgo uses natural chakra, and he is not in Sage Mode, Senninka is not Sage Mode. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 02:01, August 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * If the information you have on an article does not reflect what is said in the manga, it is a flat out lie and misinformation. Since, you don't like the quotes from the manga, and you find them flawed, then that means you are willingly ignoring the manga because you have a better explanation in mind, or perhaps you just don't think its quite right. Either way, if its not in the manga, not in a databook, or not in the anime, hence making it an anime-only addition, then it doesn't belong on an article. It goes both ways. You could mention, for instance, in the Trivia, that toads use Senjutsu without seeming to use Sage Mode, since you cannot argue that they haven't been seen in any form of Sage Mode, at all. Even Fukasaku mentions that. Same for Orochimaru, and that'd be less speculation then actually listing them as users, since, they in fact have not been shown using any method of Sage Mode. You're just pulling stuff out of the air and throwing it on articles, just because you don't like what the manga presents, and that kind of crap is exactly why we have a Speculation policy. It doesn't belong there. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 02:11, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Edit: Also, they're not my quotes. What are you even talking about? Those words come from Kishi's manga. They're his words. Are you actually saying you know better than the person that wrote those words? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 02:14, August 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * Omission or lack of information does not dictate what's true or false...and hell Fukasaku never noted any differences between both things...which would seem as a very important thing to explain doesn't it? Oww for Pete's sake stop mincing every letter i say, the quotes you pulled. Again what I don't like aren't the quotes (hell i praised you for that) it's your interpretation of them...that's the bias...you're the one trying to believe you know better...it's greater speculation to assume there are two powerups with the exact same method of activation, the exact same benefits, and the fact that every technique used from all users them start with the words "Sage Art" (or in one case "Sage Technique") If anything, it's all inconclusive. Hell let's wait for a few more chapters, were bound to get an explanation, since they are bound to explain why senjutsu can harm Obito now. Darksusanoo (talk) 02:30, August 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * Then remove the frogs until its explained. There is no proof they can use Sage Mode. Also, you're misunderstanding. There is not two power-ups involved here. Yes, Senjutsu techniques are naturally stronger than Ninjutsu. That's the whole purpose of the first quote. If you look at Sage Mode, you can see the difference immediately. Senjutsu are techniques that use natural, physical, and mental energies altogether. Sage Mode is focusing those energies into the body to achieve a transformation. They're completely different things for completely different purposes. Just as how Naruto can use Kurama's chakra to help heal his injuries without actually using the Nine-Tails transformation, or Nine-Tails Chakra Mode. They're not one in the same. Also, you're misunderstanding something else my friend. Your differentiating my opinions and the quotes. My argument is straight from what those quotes are saying. All I care about is the exact meaning of those quotes, so if you have beef with what I'm saying, then yes, you have beef with Kishi's interpretation of things beacause its HIS opinion I'm going by. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 02:39, August 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * Your argument is anything but straight from the quotes...and you're being mighty bold to say your interpretation is Kishi's way of thinking...at least i can say i can't with such certainty...can you get inside the man's mind? Hell the quote you pulled says it:


 * "With Senjutsu, ya take that internal chakra and augment it with 'natural energy', creating a new, more powerful form of chakra and all of 'yer ninjutsu, genjutsu, and even your hand-to-hand skill'll get a serious power-up. So ya got spiritual, physical, and natural from the outside. Techniques using chakra coming from those three sources are called 'Senjutsu'.''" - Fukasaku; Naruto 409 pages 11-12.


 * Please note the parts: "ya take that internal chakra and augment it with natural energy", "more powerful form of chakra", "yer ninjutsu, genjutsu and taijutsu skill get a serious power up", the last one being literal about it...so yeah two powerups are involved by your train of thought. And so i ask...why sage mode is necessary at all? Why didn't Fukasaku just teach senjutsu? At this stage, the only thing we can agree on is that there is a missing piece here...so let's leave it all for now and come back when more information surfaces, because what exists now, can go either way. Darksusanoo (talk) 02:58, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Just a simple question so i can make my point here, do animals (toad, snake) have any type of chakra? This may sound stupid but is not. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 03:08, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Fukasaku amd toads do...giant snakes, slugs, summons in general have them...Gamakichi and Gamabunta can use nature transformation, that requires chakra to transform...to use senjutsu they need it...and lots of it...regular animals on the other hand was never fully stated...what's your point? Darksusanoo (talk) 03:12, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Because I am not sure if they do, but that's speculative as hell, skipping this question stuff, trying to reach a comum sense beteween visions on the same matter, @Dark and @TTF both have good arguments, the only thing you guys agree is that there is missing something, lets just wait for further information or databook content, if we take the toads from the infobox, we would have to change too much of the article. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 03:28, August 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Water Release: Gunshot, used by Gamabunta...Fire Release: Flame Bullet used by Gamakichi (anime only)...so yeah...animals have chakra. Darksusanoo (talk) 03:33, August 10, 2013 (UTC)

Back to the main point yes Gamakichi can use senjutsu but I agree that he'd have to enter sage mode to gather natural energy to do so and Elve has already provided us wive good references -- ROOT 根 11:48, August 10, 2013 (UTC)

@Fox, you are one of the most ignorant people I know. Senjutsu chakra flowing in one's body makes it automatically enter Sage Mode. Naruto didn't have to activate anything, he managed to balance energies and fell down from rock on ground with it activated. Also stop twisting facts to suit your fallacies... Manga says Orochimaru didn't find a suitable body for Sage Mode. It DOESN'T say that his own body can't handle it neither that he hasn't had one in the past that could. Unless you can provide us evidence for another way how one can turn his/her chakra into senjutsu chakra externally or something. All in all, the majority opposes you my friend. More editors, Cerez, Seelentau, Omni, anyone?--Elveonora (talk) 12:14, August 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * At least I'm not one to form my opinions on nothing more than personal opinions and baseless speculation. You can say what you want, I'm done with this debate. I would much rather hear Omni, Ultimate, Cerez, and Seenlantau's opinions, since they tend to think with their heads and not their feelings, like you and I tend to. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:00, August 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * I can't read all of this o.o To be honest I've never given it much though before now but if I had to decide, I would remove all animals from Sage Mode and only list persons as users for several reasons:


 * Databook entry not only doesn't list Shima and Fukasaku as Sage Mode users, the way it is written is written in the perspective use of a human being.
 * That brought me to the other conclusion: In Sage Mode, the person becomes more like the creature that taught them Sage Mode: eyes mostly reflect this (excluding purposeful transformations or no).
 * That now led me to think that animals naturally use senjutsu and do no enter Sage Mode which is what humans have to go into to use senjutsu while animals do not they just make natural use of the energy. It would make them Sages, just not Sage Mode users.
 * That just led me to a tangent about Jūgo's clan, their transformation and how we classify their techniques, but I won't even go there.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 01:42, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * So not gaining froglike features when they are already frogs means they aren't in sage mode? What do you mean animals naturally use senjutsu; when did the Inuzuka clan dogs start using senjutsu? If animals naturally use senjutsu then why are there stone ancestors of frogs who failed training. Fukusaku had to make a seal when he showed naruto senjutsu to gather the natural energy and enter sage mode. Also, I'm going to Shounensuki's input here from the Fukasaku talk page:

"Shounensuki"

- Simant asked me for my input in this discussion. As explained in chapter 418 and in the third databook, Sage Mode is the state where one has moulded senjutsu chakra inside oneself. The state where one can use senjutsu and has had their body vitalised by the senjutsu chakra. Using this definition, both Fukasaku and Shima are capable of using Sage Mode, as they have clearly shown the ability to use senjutsu. — S im A nt 02:15, August 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm with Cerez here. Thank god someone else sees it how I do. I already rebutted Shonensuki's point. Senjutsu =/= Sage Mode. Sage Mode, as explained by Fukasaku, is the process of becoming one with nature, allowing for a physical power-up. Senjutsu is fusing natural energy with mental and physical energy to enhance one's techniques. They're different. Cerez also raises a very legitamate point. When Humans use Sage Mode, they, in someway, become more animal-like. This also proves my quote from Fukasaku, about the pigmentation around Naruto's eyes being "the sign of a Sage" was not bias. I'll repeat it just to make sure I hit home.


 * ""Yes! That dark pigmentation is the sign of a Sage! He did it!" - Fukasaku


 * I don't see why he'd say that if it didn't hold some relevance to the transformation. Animals don't need a transformation to use Senjutsu because they are already part of nature. Humans, on the other hand, not being in harmony with nature, need Sage Mode to harmonize themselves and then they're capable of using Senjutsu. Its not hard to follow when you don't muddle things up with speculation. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 02:25, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Senjutsu are a type of techinque that uses natural energy, sage mode is having balanced natural energy with your own chakra. Shounensuki didn't state them to be the same, only related. You have in no way rebutted shounsuki's point to what I can see with your quotes. Is your point that fukasaku didn't say suppose to say "for a human that dark pigmentation is the sigh of a sage"? — S im A nt 03:04, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm going to be honest with you. I didn't understand what you said. Nor do I understand what you're arguing. If, by your admission, both yourself and Shonensuki admit that Senjutsu =/= Sage Mode, and, by your own admission, you can't refute that Fukasaku specifically points out the pigmentation around a users eyes being the sign that they use Sage Mode, which both Cerez and I noted is missing in toads, then you have no argument. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 03:20, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * The point is the toads already have pigmentation around their eyes, so you can't tell. It doesn't matter that they aren't the same thing, as senjutsu techniques require senjutsu chakra which is the result of balancing physical/spiritual/natural energy which is achieved through sage mode. And the frogs have used senjutsu. — S im A nt 03:27, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

In that case, someone should hurry and list Akamaru as a user of senjutsu!!! But wait, since he and Kiba can merge together, that means the latter is a user as well therefore Kiba is a SAGE!!! He mastered Shadow Clone technique as well, the only things left for him to match Naruto are to learn Rasengan and dye his fu*king hair blond to catch up to his rival so they are equal!!! He might as well digest a fu*king fox he catches somewhere so both of them have one in their stomach!

Senjutsu gives monster power, speed and durability, that's why we are seeing animals lifting buildings and causing destruction in their wake!!! And that's how could Gamakichi stand his own against Manda!!! OMG, UR a genius Fox, truly. And since Kisame is a half-shark, so he is a Sage as well!!!

Ridicule against ridiculousness is the only way to show how retarded this is. Someone should tell Gamabunta that he also uses Senjutsu, so he could easily smash Kurama and Shukaku like a turd without effort due to his size and this enhancement, but of course he didn't as he was either too stupid or you are wrong, I'm certain it's the latter--Elveonora (talk) 14:31, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * What TTF is trying to say is that Sage Mode is a physical manifestation of the use of natural energy, manifestation which frogs do not suffer, that being said, is not Sage Mode, but only senjutsu which is the literal use of natural energy without any physical manifestation being a trait unique to humans called Sage Mode. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 14:42, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok everyone let's call it a day for now...everyone's grasping at straws...let's wait it out for a week or two...maybe the next few chapters will give an explanation. Darksusanoo (talk) 14:52, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Except both logic and canon itself contradicts what TTF proposes. Sage Mode isn't about bodily transformation at all, the definition is a state which occurs as a result of senjutsu chakra empowerment. Toads can't gain additional toad features. Pigmentation around eye was stated to be a a sign of a true Sage. Can you see any animal characteristics on Hashirama? Of course not, because it isn't mandatory--Elveonora (talk) 15:08, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Like i said...let's call it a day, i'm sure more stuff is gonna surface soon...also Hashi's Sage Mode is bound to be different from the rest for some reason. But let's wait on that as well. Darksusanoo (talk) 15:10, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Simply to clarify my position here, I'm Cerez and TTF. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 15:22, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

No matter what Dan. you are always with the opposition in discussions, so I wouldn't add much value to that.--Elveonora (talk) 15:43, August 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * In other words, anyone who doesn't agree with Elevenora might as well be silent, because he doesn't care about anyone else's opinion. Arrogance of the highest kind. That's three in favor. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:17, August 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * Oww for Pete's sake, will you both pack it up...@Fox you're no better when it comes to arrogance and patronizing...@Elve your atittude isn't helping either...right now this discussion is at a stalemate...evidence can go either way...hence why this is so divided...just leave it be and we'll turn back to this with fresh heads and more info...right now this discussion is reaching a forum-level of bickering. Darksusanoo (talk) 18:27, August 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Perhaps its just best if it let to drop for now. Maybe in a few chapters we'll have a clearer view on some of the issues revolving around Sage Mode, since its going to be returning to the spotlight and we can reopen the issue then. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:30, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * What stalemate...? How is the natural pigmentation around toad eyes proof that they can't use sage mode? It's simple, natural energy becomes senjutsu chakra when it is taken inside the body, it then needs to be balanced with the other chakras to prevent turning to stone, and balancing the chakra results in sage mode. You can't use senjutsu techinques which require senjutsu chakra without being in sage mode. — S im A nt 19:14, August 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * There is a stalemate; three users, so far, are for removing the toads, and three users are against it. Or are you suggesting that three against it are more correct in their argument? What he's trying to say is we're dropping it until more is elaborated on. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 19:30, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

You misunderstood, I didn't mean that. Dan.'s opinion is relevant just like anyone else's. I just believe that he rarely has his own, to me it appears like he just picks up a side that is in opposition to the topic's author most of the time for whatever reason. I may be wrong tho.--Elveonora (talk) 20:06, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * This wiki does NOT resolve discussions based on the number of users for or against. From that point, Dan.Faulkner point of "I'm with ..." does now swing the discussion either way. And, from what I understand of the point Cerez made was that: A. He did not read the entire discussion as it was a HUGE wall of text, and I don't blame him. B. He said they were sages but not in sage mode because they naturally use senjutsu chakra. But, the point is they don't naturally use senjutsu chakra as there are statues of their ancestors who had turned to stone from failing to master it. So really it is just you alone TTF with the point of toads already having natural pigmentation which has been brought up probably 6+ times without you responding. — S im A nt  20:20, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Have they had Senjutsu chakra by default:

So all in all, it's just TTF's agenda or rather wishful thinking. --Elveonora (talk) 20:26, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * all animals would be freaking powerful
 * they wouldn't need to absorb further natural energy to empower themselves
 * they wouldn't need to master anything
 * Shima and Fukasaku wouldn't be called Great Sages or shi* but every single animal would be Great Sage


 * Yes, you caught me. It's my evil plan to rid the wiki of mentions of animals being able to use Sage Mode -__- With that plan foiled, I'll now spend the next 16 years gathering the tailed beasts, and use my Infinite Tsukuyomi to force the entire wiki to to accept that only humans can use Sage Mode. Because that's what most people do with their free time. I make no apologizes for arguing this. I truly believe its asinine to say that Toads, who are already apart of nature, have to use a transformation (that's what Sage Mode is. Period. Otherwise, why need a "Mode" to use Senjutsu if you could just use Senjutsu alone?) whose purpose is to bring the user in unison with nature (something most humans do not possess without training), but again, why use logic? I'm confident we'll be learning more about Senjutsu, as Kishi's got to explain why Senjutsu can affect Obito, and not regular forms of attack, so I'm comfortable waiting until that's explained before really arguing this again, but I will be bringing it up again and that's that. So Simant, Elve, you can stop foaming at the mouth. I'm done for now. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 05:50, August 12, 2013 (UTC)