Talk:Uchiha Clan Downfall

Relevance
Okay, so somehow tell me how the following is irrelevant to the page. The page is discussing how, after the Nine-Tailed Demon Fox incident, some people looked at the Uchiha with suspicion because a fully matured Sharingan could exert some influence over the Nine-Tails. Shouldn't it also be added as a sidenote, in parenthesis even, that the Shodai Hokage's Wood Release, which remains alive in Yamato, also is capable of affected the Demon Fox? We are talking about what can affect it and how it changed people's perceptions. --Justentizang (talk) 17:32, July 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * But Yamato cannot force the fox to destroy a village. In addition, Konoha obviously did not suspect a ten-year-old to be involved in the incident. To mention Yamato would be like mentioning the pre-Konoha history of the Uchiha, as it is loosely relevant in the whole Uchiha v Senju tragedy of the affair. ~SnapperTo 17:36, July 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Gee, must be nice to be a moderator, huh? You can do whatever the hell you want and screw everyone else over.  Anyways, the pre-Konoha founding period should also be mentioned, since we're detailing all the things that led up to the Uchiha's dissent with the village, which eventually led to this massacre.  But forget it, I'm done here; you're just too stubborn and I don't have time to be on the internet all day long.  Do whatever you want.  --Justentizang (talk) 17:39, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

HEY! That's not very nice!-- Ninja Sheik  17:41, July 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, well, Snapper2 isn't very nice. He keeps on undoing my edits and then he uses his magic admin powers to block other people from editing, so only his version is allowed.  --Justentizang (talk) 17:43, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

Snapper2 is doing what he thinks it best! He works hard on this wiki, and he's been here longer! That's why I respect him, and you should too. You're only mad because you can't have your way.-- Ninja Sheik  17:45, July 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ah, yes, the myth that seniority somehow implies superiority. If he's so great, can he at least give a reason why he is undoing my edits?  All he says is "not necessary" and leaves it at that.  The information is relevant.  And yes, I do get pissed off when a random jerk decides to block progress or advancement.


 * A very fanboyish response NinjaSheik, but yes he wouldn't be where he was if he didn't know what he was doing. However that is all irrelevant to the article at hand. The issue Justenizang, is that all of that his absolutely nothing to do with the Uchiha Massacre. That is information best left to the Nine-Tails page, not this one.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 17:49, July 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's a perk of sorts. Some guideline somewhere says that, when there's a conflict, you stick with the pre-conflict version until the discussion is over, which in this case would be no mention of Yamato.
 * If the pre-Konoha history is to be mentioned, one might also wish to mention Madara's involvement since he is so centric to that topic. Then it might be prudent to mention he survived the epic HashMad fight. Then that he founded Akatsuki. Then what Akastuki has done and how its actions relate to other characters. In the end, this article would cover seven different topics.
 * Also, Snapper2 doesn't understand why, of the 33 words you added, you would be so offended that I removed 10 of those words. Or why Snapper2 is the sole heretic given that three other people reverted you as well. ~SnapperTo 17:50, July 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also Note: Snapper2 is considered the nice admin. I am the one who will straight out block you for a while for juvenile crap like changing another users name to jerk. Your move buddy.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 17:52, July 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Also Note: Snapper2 is considered the nice admin. I am the one who will straight out block you for a while for juvenile crap like changing another users name to jerk. Your move buddy.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 17:52, July 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * To TheUltimate 3: well, I checked on the Nine-tails page to see if the bit about how its attack made the people of Konoha more suspicious towards the Uchiha, and lo and behold, there's no mention that that Shodai's power could also control it. And what do you know, it's blocked from regular members editing it.  And please don't tell me peple wouldn't suspect a 10-year old.  They're ninja.  Kakashi made jonin at what, 11, 12?  So...what do you admins do all day?  Just check the site every 5 seconds?  --Justentizang (talk) 18:01, July 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's protected for an unrelated reason. Can the Nine-Tails use it tails like a monkey can? Someone thinks so. Perhaps try Nine-Tails' Attack on Konoha. I can see an aside about Yamato's abilities being relevant enough to that topic to not feel compelled to remove it. ~SnapperTo 18:02, July 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * I would think the monkey comment would come from when it picked up a tree with its tail. S im A nt 18:43, July 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Wasn't that Gamabunta transformed as the Nine-tails? (Naruto vs Gaara fight) --Justentizang (talk) 18:59, July 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I can't remember the fox doing that. But then I don't pay as close attention to these things as I should. ~SnapperTo 19:39, July 27, 2010 (UTC)

madara and parents
which episode/chapter did it say that madara helped itachi murdur the uchiha clan? where did it say itachi killed his parents last?
 * Itachi killed his parents then fled the village right after.If you read and or even watched Naruto you'd know this--Cerez☺ (talk) 16:52, February 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * In chapter 385 page 3-5 Itachi claims that Madara helped him and in chapter 400 page 9 Madara says that he helped. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 18:43, February 19, 2011 (UTC)

Sharingan Whereabouts
Possibly add to Trivia section Inside Madara's labrotory there are countertops filled with preserved sharingan. And Danzo has 10 sharingan in his arm, could it have been likely that Tobi agreed to take all of the Killed uchiha's Sharingan excluding 5 for Danzo to keep quiet?(UubPathnik (talk) 23:56, November 14, 2011 (UTC))
 * It could also be possible that he's been robbing graves and collecting them for years. Orrr that they aren't really sharingans just golf balls that Tobi coloured on.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 23:58, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

Kanji
Can someone get the kanji for the "Uchiha Clan Massacre" phrase? Otherwise, we would have to rename the page as "Uchiha Incident", as that one has the kanji. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 22:56, December 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * Kanji isn't required for a page name.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 23:32, December 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * But if it is available, then shouldn't it be the more official "Uchiha Incident"? Yatanogarasu (Talk) 00:46, January 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * I mean, the moment we figured out it was and not the unofficial term "Abandoned Uchiha Hideout", we changed it and even deleted the latter redirect link. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 00:51, January 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * Abandoned was unnecessary. It was an Uchiha Hideout. Why we had abandoned in the name is beyond me, but it was unnecessary. Note I'm not arguing to change the name or not. I'm of the "wait until more people besides myself say stuff before chiming in" sort of mind. I'm just pointing out that kanji is not required for a page name. Otherwise Invasion of Konoha would become "Konoha Crash", which is incredibly misleading.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 01:07, January 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, true. But I like to point out that "Konoha Kuzushi" should translate to "Konoha Destruction" or "Destruction of Konoha", as Kuzushi doesn't really mean "Crash". However, kanji is necessary when available. Only stuff like Nine-Tails' Attack on Konoha and Invasion of Pain does not have the official names (yet) does not need kanji. When available, we really should add to it, such as all those unnamed techniques when they are properly named. But, yeah, lets wait for some more opinion. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 01:26, January 1, 2012 (UTC)

I just want to point out, Konoha Destruction is ALSO misleading.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 02:52, January 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * Alright, then "Destruction of Konoha" sounds good. I mean, some techniques have names that do not explain the effects right on the spot. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 03:19, January 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * Both were misleading. I choose to say one because adding 'of' didn't seem worth it >.>--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 03:25, January 1, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, but as for Uchiha Clan Massacre, we'll wait, right? Yatanogarasu (Talk) 06:15, January 1, 2012 (UTC)

Any more opinions? Should we move it or keep it as it is? Yatanogarasu (Talk) 20:41, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

I see no problem in keeping the current name. I don't recall there ever being an official name for this event. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:46, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

"Uchiha Incident", that's what Tobi called it when he met with Danzo. We call it Hyūga Affair directly, because that's what characters call it, not an unofficial name like "Hyūga Family Turbulence". So why not this incident and Konoha Crash as well? Yatanogarasu (Talk) 20:48, January 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * The Herobook calls it the . The first and second databooks also use similar wordings. —ShounenSuki (talk 21:08, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * So with that, thought the name that's there now is more known/used do we change it?--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 21:11, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Well, since both are official, the question is which one sounds better as a title. I personally vote Uchiha Family Downfall, or Uchiha Clan Massacre. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 06:04, January 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I like both and if they're both correct, I don't see a reason to change it people have become accustomed to the name "Uchiha clan massacre".--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 12:43, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

Sasuke's Perception
If Tobi blatantly told Sasuke his participation in the massacre why did Sasuke ally with Tobi? It seems that Sasuke is willing to ignore the massacre of his clan by Tobi for help in his revenge against Konoha.

--Elven Windsword (talk) 18:31, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

change in base of the last chapiter
in the new chapiter we see a flash back with itachi during the massacre we must change the information expecialy aboutt the meeting with danzou and tobi...in the fisrt case i think we must add something like "danzou confront itachi to make him choose or the clan or the village if he stay with the village the life of sasuke was salved" and about shisui i think we must add that he want use the kotoamastukami on the uciha to stop the coup. --Nitram86 (talk) 10:29, June 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * And out of curiosity, how about the truth? ~IndxcvNovelist (talk 09:13, June 21, 2012 (UTC)

Article info verification
I don't know whether or not I'm getting confused or someone else is, so could someone cite a source for "Following the Nine-Tails' attack on Konoha orchestrated by Tobi, Konoha's leadership began to suspect that an Uchiha was behind the attack as the Sharingan is the only remaining means to tame the Nine-Tails" please, because I don't remember the two events being linked like that.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 16:54, September 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it started when Tobi told Sasuke "the truth" about the attack, when he claimed that it was an accident. He commented that Sharingan was the only way to control the fox, which lead the elders to suspect the Uchiha. Then when we saw what really happened, we just added two and two. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 17:02, September 2, 2012 (UTC)

It's valid, Konoha suspecting the Uchiha for the attack was one of the major reasons for meant to happen coup d'etat. Uchiha's political power was likely suppressed, their actions monitored etc. after the attack, ironic that an Uchiha has destroyed the Uchiha.--Elveonora (talk) 17:22, September 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay. It's in chapter 399. Thanks guys. I guess I was in fact confused or overly tired or something (my brain felt like mush '~') Any way, I'll make the necessary revisions if they haven't been done yet ^^ --Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 20:18, September 2, 2012 (UTC)

Itachi's age
During the massace, Sasuke was 7/8, so Itachi was 12/13 because they have a 5 year difference. How could Itachi have killed his entire clan at 13?--178.176.36.132 (talk) 15:27, October 20, 2012 (UTC)Edmurak
 * He is a progeny.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:47, October 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * 1) Only partially correct Cerez;
 * 2) Most of the members of Uchiha were prsumably sleeping already, an advantage of surprise, so they had no time to react accordingly
 * 3) Obito/Tobi helped him, Itachi didn't do it all by himself
 * 4) There was to be a point 4, but forgot it's contents and relevance to the context, so this is it (for now) till and if do I recall the rest--Elveonora (talk) 17:22, October 20, 2012 (UTC)

About "Madara"'s involvement
However, later on when Naruto encounters reanimated Itachi and tells him that "Madara" told him the "truth", Itachi exclaims, "Madara knew?" If Tobi had really helped him with the massacre, why would Itachi be surprised? I'm not upto date with the manga so correct me if I'm mistaken...141.0.9.59 (talk) 05:19, May 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * First of all, please read the time stamps on posts before adding to it (they can be found at the end of signatures), the one you replied to was three years old, the user was not mistaken in removing your post. That being said, at what point in time did Itachi or the storyline mention that he told him the truth behind his actions for committing genocide? Madara wanted revenge on the clan for abandoning him, Itachi probably only told him that he was going to wipe them out, but not the reason behind it. Ergo he was shocked to hear that he was going off telling people about what was really happening.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 13:43, May 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry about violating the talkpage policy. Your theory makes some sense and I guess the article should be left as such. But I'm still curious: was Itachi, though he was young, dumb enough to think he could get away with telling Madara that he wanted to wipe out his entire clan for no good reason (except maybe for measuring his vessel, as he did with Sasuke) while conspiring with him? Besides, Itachi was lying in his conversation with Sasuke about his motives (wanting to take Sasuke's eyes) and "Madara" has been lying about a lot of things (including his identity and the Nine Tails' rampage). Should we be relying on these conversations to state as fact that he assisted Itachi? Maybe we should qualify these facts with something like "According to Itachi" or "It was claimed by Itachi that"? I'll leave you to do it, although if you're lazy I'll try my hand...141.0.9.76 (talk) 04:03, May 17, 2013 (UTC)

The Uchiha weren't discriminated nor segregated.
It was a lie perpetrated by Obito to turn Sasuke to his side and make the Uchiha more sympathetic. Orochimaru said that Tobirama did so...yet he didn't. Tobirama made their headquarters the edge of the village since they would need already built facilities for their duties. And we can tell Obito lied with one simple fact: Sasuke and Itachi's house was the same in the Kyubi Attack as it was in Sasuke's flashbacks to his childhood. The Uchiha were never moved nor segregated. The manga flat out disproves it with visual evidence.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 09:30, December 31, 2014 (UTC)

Madara or Obito
Should we call Obito by his real name or his alias at the time "Madara" in the article? --Sarutobii2 (talk) 08:57, February 6, 2016 (UTC)
 * This is what SuperSajuuk said on the matter:
 * "This wiki refers to people by the name used at that point in the series, so as not to spoiler those who have not reached that point in the story. He is referred to as Madara up until the reveal, so the wiki calls him Madara at every point preceding the chapter/episode in which he is revealed as Obito. That is how all wiki's operate and this wiki does the same for literally any other important change like that. --SuperSajuuk (talk) 18:48, January 10, 2016 (UTC)"
 * --JouXIII (talk) 12:22, February 6, 2016 (UTC)
 * Exactly. It's like in an article where we didn't know who the First Hokage's name, we'd use the "First Hokage" instead even if we found out later. I don't know what gave TU3 the right to change a whole article subject based on what he personally felt annoyed him. --Rai 水 (talk) 15:28, February 6, 2016 (UTC)
 * TU3 changed it because across the wiki, we've been using "Tobi" to to describe Obito while he was wearing the mask (including when he was under his "Madara" disguise). And what Sajuuk said is mostly true. Using Obito is not a valid option because of what Sajuuk said, yes. However, we opted not to use "Madara" either because that would confuse readers into thinking the real Madara was involved in the massacre, quotes or no quotes, which isn't true.
 * Therefore, on many articles on this wiki, we've been referring to Obito while he was wearing a mask as "Tobi" and not "Madara" to avoid confusion, despite Obito revealing himself as "Madara" at the time to other characters. For whatever reason, despite what many articles were doing in consistently using "Tobi", a user changed "Tobi" in this article to "Madara" and now it's got us in this predicament (and I'm too lazy to look in the history and figure out who did it, but I'm sure the change wasn't without reason. But I'm also wondering if the user knew why we were using "Tobi" and not "Madara").
 * If it's decided we use "Madara", then that's fine, but I wanted to lay out the reasoning as to why we didn't use "Madara" with quotes in the first place and why we opted to use "Tobi" on this article and many articles throughout the wiki (Not to mention, even "the masked man", along with "Obito", "'Madara'", and "Tobi", is a candidate that can be argued out for which name we use to describe Obito under the mask in this article and presumably other articles). 16:03, February 6, 2016 (UTC)
 * Understood. Obito is a special case since he has donned so many personas in the series. So if that's what was decided to undertake it, it is left as-is unless someone can find a better method to tackle it.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 16:18, February 6, 2016 (UTC)
 * I saw Omnibender's summary saying that we use the name he was going by at the time, so i changed it accordingly. And since we called Obito "Tobi" across the wiki to avoid confusion with the character Madara, the Fourth databook introduced the Zetsu Tobi. So choosing either names based on avoiding confusing is not a possibility any more. So all that leaves us with is to call Obito The Masked Man or "Madara". --Sarutobii2 (talk) 16:43, February 6, 2016 (UTC)

2 things: Im saying both names are equally confusing, but not necessary an issue as demonstrated with calling him Tobi in varies articles. What is a issue is calling Obito Tobi before he took on the alias and persona. The name Tobi is in no way associated with the Uchiha Clan Downfall and the article should reflect that. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 17:35, February 6, 2016 (UTC)
 * 1) Not every Naruto fan knows the contents of the fourth databook. Therefore, they wouldn't know that Guruguru is technically named "Tobi" in that databook.
 * 2) We could just refer to him as "Zetsu Tobi" in articles and not only "Tobi". Readers would recognize "Tobi" as Obito from reading the manga, not Guruguru (because again, not everyone read the databook). And if you're saying that we can't use Tobi because someone else is named that, then by that reasoning, we can't use "Madara" either. 16:49, February 6, 2016 (UTC)
 * Eh. Either way, if it's decided "Madara" or something else is used, I'm fine with it. Just laying out the possible scenarios that would arise from each decision, is all. 17:39, February 6, 2016 (UTC)
 * Articles should really be referring to the alias Obito was using at the time (so if characters called him Madara, then he should be referenced as Madara in the page: same with Tobi and all that).
 * That way, when someone is reading the article, they can effectively know the story without needing to be spoilered by mistake. If I am remembering correctly, during Kisame's flashback, he is called Madara by Kisame, even though it's clearly Tobi/Obito and the chapter/episode page which refers to this scene calls Obito "Madara" like it should.
 * Same applies with all the other "unseen" characters, like Minato (who is just called "Fourth Hokage" for a vast majority of the series by the characters up until a point when his name is revealed) and Hashirama (who is essentially the "First Hokage" for nearly the whole series until near the war arc).
 * If someone changed it, it is more likely that they didn't understand why the wiki does it, rather than the user trying to prevent confusion. It's very unlikely someone coming here would not know who was who, especially as most of the chapter pages refer to Obito as either "Madara" or "Tobi", depending on the character and the event in question.
 * Feel free to take this opinion with a pinch of salt though. --SuperSajuuk (talk) 18:02, February 6, 2016 (UTC)
 * * Takes the pinch of salt*
 * Then, technically by that reasoning, we should be calling Obito "Madara" and not "Tobi", in articles such as Fourth Shinobi World War: Confrontation and Fourth Shinobi World War: Countdown, right? Except, we don't do that and we use "Tobi" anyway.... :/ 18:06, February 6, 2016 (UTC)
 * That's likely a mistake with the page or it could just be that the wiki doesn't consistently follow the logic I provided (which I believe was agreed upon years ago (wasn't my original suggestion, but was the communities decision iirc).
 * All the time I've been here (even when the big reveal happened), I recall the wiki deciding that it should call Obito by the name he used at the specific point of the story (so if a character calls him Madara, pages should refer to him as such: if a character calls him Tobi, pages refer to him as so). The wiki should flow like the chapters, so if his name interchanges between chapters, the pages should note that (I am pretty sure all the chapter summaries do this anyway). --SuperSajuuk (talk) 18:09, February 6, 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't think it's a mistake, especially if it's used many times across various articles. I also recall the wiki not using "Madara" and instead using "Tobi" because using "Madara" would confuse readers into thinking the real Madara was doing all of those actions, which isn't true.
 * EDIT: Also, the chapter articles still use "Tobi" and not "Madara".