Talk:God: Nativity of a World of Trees

Wood Release
I fail to see when this was called Wood Release in the series. It is far more likely it is summoning the roots of the Shinju like how Bee can bring forth Gyūki's tails. &#34;Demons run when a good man goes to war.&#34; (talk) 06:53, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * That reasoning would be correct even for the Wood Release: Flowering Tree, but since that's considered a Wood Release jutsu, so is this.--JOA20 (talk) 06:57, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Other wiki articles are no valid source, though. Also, when did Kaguya use it? Didn't she use the already existing roots of the Shinju? • Seelentau 愛 議 09:42, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Someone has already listed the Shinju as Mokuton and Sharingan user--Elveonora (talk) 11:35, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * How very speculative. Not that I'd care, but man... • Seelentau 愛 議 11:36, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't want to be paranoid, but both the kanji and romaji match with Wood Release Secret Technique: Nativity of a World of Trees--Elveonora (talk) 11:43, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, I wonder why a real tree and an artifical tree are both called tree... • Seelentau 愛 議 11:47, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * So...this isn't a wood release, correct?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:50, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, That's not the point, Kishi could have named the technique "god's lovely embrace, forever" instead of using name of a Mokuton technique. It's fishy. Not to mention there's still the whole vague usage of Wood Release: Cutting by the Shinju ;) @Ultimate, only Kishi knows, but there's no Mokuton prefix and the Shinju having Mokuton is still not confirmed without a doubt, so it's not i guess--Elveonora (talk) 11:52, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's not wood release. Not that we can say any way. Obito did the same thing with the root dragons and we don't consider that wood release.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 11:54, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

Right. Never stated to be wood release. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 12:16, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

I'd remove Shinju as a user, and add this to Wood Release. The name implies it's based of Hashirama's signature technique, who is the earliest known user of Wood Release, so this wouldn't have existed back in Kaguya's time, and Madara has Hashirama's Wood Release. Kaguya had the actual tree available to connect to everyone. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:44, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

only one problem, we do not know if Kaguya could use wood release or not. Something else btw, Hashirama is not the originator of wood release. It actually says he was the only known user at one point. I would make a trivia point mentioning the panel of Kaguya doing something similar but say how she accomplished this is unknown, although I do think we need to use common sense on here more.--J spencer93 (talk) 22:54, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

Check a couple topics below regarding Kaguya. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:52, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

Implications of the Name
I'm not trying to say that this technique is a Wood release technique, but is it possible that the name of this technique implies that the Wood release was inadvertently born from the power of the Ten-Tails? It would make sense, given the fact that Hashirama is Asura's reincarnation, who in turn was the son of the original Ten-Tails Jinchūriki. I realize this is probably a weird theory, but whatever. Atrix471 (talk) 16:24, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Does not explain why Hashirama is the only of Asura's reincarnation to have Wood Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:44, May 21, 2014 (UTC)


 * Fair point, I did say I knew it was a weird theory... but like every Kekkei Genkai it maybe needed to stabilize in a fitting individual. We don't really have enough information on the formation of new Kekkei Genkai for me to create an argument. Atrix471 (talk) 16:48, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya
I'm removing Kaguya on account of her having the actual tree at her disposal to connect with everyone. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:44, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * She had the pre-existing roots, but she would still need the technique for the ensnaring of the targets. &#34;Demons run when a good man goes to war.&#34; (talk) 17:08, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * She can't use Jukai Kotan. Jukai Kotan is Hashirama's technique and the fact that Hashirama recognizes it proves that. Kaguya didn't have Wood Release (Hashirama was the first known user) and she certainly didn't know his signature move. This was simply Madara basing an attack off of the principle of Jukai Kotan. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:56, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Aren't you assuming a lot here? Hashirama recognized it, that's true, but the Ten-Tails is a TREE and therefore the roots were bound to be similar to a Wood release technique. Atrix471 (talk) 18:01, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not assuming anything. Hashirama recognized it because he is the creator of Jukai Kōtan. I'm also not assuming that Hashirama is the only known user of Wood Release, because that has been stated many times in the series. Jukai Kōtan is Hashirama's technique and Madara modified it to complete his plan. Madara has used Hashirama's technique since gaining Hashirama's Wood Release, so it was probably simpler to incorperate the plan into a technique he already knows. Kaguya didn't know Jukai Kōtan because it wouldn't exist until centuries after her demise. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:03, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Do you assume that Kaguya would simply have everyone march across the world for the sake of being assimilated by the Shinju? She had to have the means of ensnaring people all over the countinent so telling that Kaguya had no ability to summon wood, even if said wood was part of the Shinju, sounds too presumptuous. I'd say we keep Kaguya as a user of this technique and that her control over the Shinju's body to absorb people also neats her said tailed beast skill if not wood release properly. --World Master (talk) 21:09, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * I assume nothing. She didn't have Wood Release. I know that much. Hashirama was the originator. I also know she didn't know Jukai Kōtan because Hashirama invented it. How she connected everyone to the Shinju? Ever think she might have just used the tree? She had access to it. She wasn't its jinchūriki, but she had access to it. Seems more likely to me than her using a technique that wouldn't be invented until centuries after her death. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:24, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

And who happens to be Hashirama's oldest known ancestor? Who already happens to have the sharingan, which was given to her when she ate the fruit of the Shinju? Why is it an impossibility that Kaguya was the first human with wood release, and that the ability skipped a lot of generations? Its not something unusual. We already know that tailed beasts can give kekkei genkai to their jinchuuriki. And we know through Kaguya that those abilities can pass through DNA. So why is it so impossible for wood release? And I don't think the name similarity really makes a difference. It could easily be that Kishi just wanted the name of the technique to be similar to Hashi's technique. For all we know, we could be overthinking it, and he wasn't paying much attention to the knowing the names thing. After all, he just had the 3rd call Yamato Yamato instead of Tenzo. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 22:25, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't care whose ancestor she is. She cannot use a technique that was invented centuries after her death. Hashirama was stated to be the earliest originator of the Wood Release, so until Kishi says otherwise, that's fact. Get over that she's his ancestor. She is also the ancestor of the Hyūga and I don't see Hashirama popping out a Byakugan. She didn't use this technique, she was never seen using this technique, and, honestly, its impossible for her to use it because she neither has the kekkei genkai for it, nor could she have known a technique created hundreds of years later. The end. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 22:28, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Just think logically. This technique is called 'God', referring to the fact that the wood utilized is the 'God TREE's' roots. Hashirama's version is 'Wood Release' because it uses normal wood. Kaguya doesn't need to be a wood release user to use the roots of the god tree, these are two entirely different entities. The identical name isn't really all that important. Atrix471 (talk) 22:37, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * You tell me to think logically and then type a paragraph devoid of it. I'm not arguing that she didn't use the Shinju's roots in her Infinite Tsukuyomi. Totally agree with that. But she did not use this technique. Madara based this technique off of Hashirama's Wood Release Secret Technique: Nativity of a World of Trees, a technique Kaguya could never have known because said technique was made centuries after her death. Its impossible. That is logical. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 22:40, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Foxie's point is that even if she used technique roots rather than the Shinju's, it wasn't this technique since the name wasn't invented until centuries later.--Elveonora (talk) 22:49, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Elve. Yes, that is exactly my point. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 22:52, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

May I ask how do we know that the name was not created until centuries later? Just Wondering. Far as I can tell Hashirama is only called the most recent user or the only known user. That does not mean he is the only user period. It is more likely others had this tech before him.--J spencer93 (talk) 00:42, May 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because Hashirama invented the Jukai Kōtan? That was established all the way back in Part I and has only been confirmed over and over and over again since. Hashirama is the originator of the ability and is the only natural user. Period. Period. The others that came after got their ability from genetically tampering with his cells. No if's, and's, or but's. Kaguya is not a user. That is final. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:19, May 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * But on chapter 671, Kaguya did exactly what Madara did. → Sharingan_Triple.svg Rafael Uchiha  Uchiha_Symbol.svg 04:00, May 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * With the Shinju's actual roots, she didn't create it with this technique. Read TTF's posts. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 04:38, May 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * But if Madara was based on the technique of Hashirama, then it is a Wood Release, which was said to not be a topic above. → Sharingan_Triple.svg Rafael Uchiha  Uchiha_Symbol.svg 04:46, May 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sigh, it's getting confusing--Elveonora (talk) 10:25, May 22, 2014 (UTC)

Na, it's not. Kaguya used the technique with the Shinju's roots. This means either, Madara used the already existing roots or he created them with Mokuton. If he did the latter, Kaguya should not be listed as a user of this technique, since she didn't use Mokuton. If Madara used the already existing roots, this isn't Mokuton. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:56, May 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * But remember that the base of the Shinju is still on the battlefield and all it's roots would be there as well. I think Kaguya should probably be left a user is we decide this isn't a wood release technique.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:57, May 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Stupid question, but when was it ever stated that Kaguya used this or used this method?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 15:08, May 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * It was my understanding that we were assuming that what she was shown doing in 671(?) is this same technique.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:57, May 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah I completely missed that. Ok then. Carry on.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:21, May 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * There is no tree present in that chapter. Just the mummies and they're all laying on the ground, not tied up and hanging from a tree. Her goal wasn't to connect everyone to the tree to make a fruit, either, that is strictly Madara's goal. I'm sorry, but she just did not use this technique. Perhaps a Trivia point that notes the similarities between what she did then and what this technique does is in order to satisfy both sides, but until I see Kaguya shooting roots out of the ground, or somehow knowing a technique that was invented centuries after her demise (guys, seriously Hashirama called it his Jukai Kōtan when he saw it), then she's not a user. No way. No how. Not possible. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:37, May 23, 2014 (UTC)

Except second fruit was Kaguya's plan too, otherwise Hagoromo wouldn't have had a chance to know that as a result of global bondage a new fruit will grow. Also her face in the background makes it obvious--Elveonora (talk) 21:07, May 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, that is you once again blatantly ignoring manga content. Hagoromo stated that his mother used the Infinite Tsukuyomi to quell the wars, but because of her method of forcing people (through said genjutsu) to do so, she was feared as a demon. Hagoromo stated that Madara's plan was to use the people's life force to bring about a new fruit and therefore gain Kaguya's power. Please read before making those statements. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 05:39, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * How would he know such a thing is even possible (rooting people and making new fruit) if it hadn't happened before?--Elveonora (talk) 13:27, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm going to assume Kaguya used this technique. The tree mummies fit between the Sage's explaination of what had happened (I think) and what Madara is doing. Even the name uses "God" instead of "Wood Release", which would imply that it was Hashirama that recreated this technique with his Wood techniques, while Kaguya and Madara would do it with the God Tree (hence the word "God" in the name).
 * That said, I am perfectly fine with watching everybody destroy themselves over this topic, so as I said earlier, carry on.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:35, May 24, 2014 (UTC)

Where did this come from?
"[...] and use their chakra to create a new fruit".- Where did this statement come from. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 05:55, May 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Nowhere. It's speculation and should be removed. All I see are people being turned into cocoons.--Super Kurama (talk) 13:17, May 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * That is not exactly true. It was said that Madara is trying to achieve Kaguya's power by using the life force of the people to create another fruit.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:53, May 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hagaromo said it to Sasuke and Naruto in chapter 671 on page 5 (not counting the color page). Skarrj (talk) 20:16, May 23, 2014 (UTC)

Shinju using Mokuton
Vol 54: "The Uchiha and Senju were once one. Their originator, the Sage of six paths, possessed the blood and powers of both, and created many things."

Chapter 646: ''"Chakra first originated with this divine tree! All of the chakra here, even your own vast chakra."

[...]

"...And Kaguya's child was born with chakra already dwelling within him."''

Is it that mind-blowing that the giant forerunner tree can use Mokuton? In chapter 671, we can see people bandaged up and connected to the Shinju's roots. In chapter 677, we see the beginning of this when Madara uses Mokuton.

Now, unless we're ready to start saying: -Kaguya needed people to walk, travel by plane/boat to get connected to the tree -Kaguya had to bandage people one-by-one, herself, while Madara can apparently summon roots with "built-in" bandages that take care of the job

Wouldn't it be.. Simpler to just say she used the same thing Madara is using now, instead of some kind of "version"? Wreiad (talk) 02:52, May 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * But Madara's technique ain't Mokuton either is it? EDIT: oh, I see it's been listed as one, well then... shrugs--Elveonora (talk) 11:09, May 25, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya Part II
Sooo. Can someone explain to me why Kaguya isn't listed again? The above section is... Quite the cluster.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 09:31, June 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, because some people seem to still believe that this technique is mokuton. --Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 10:04, June 1, 2014 (UTC)

What we (don't) know with 100% certainty:
 * Madara somehow connected people to the Shinju using the roots made with this technique, but how? Isn't it inside of his body now that he did absorb it?
 * Hashirama recognized the technique
 * But instead of Wood Release, there's God prefix for some reason
 * No profit T_T
 * The God prefix to me at least obviously refers to the Shinju, meaning the technique is a Tailed Beast Skill, making Shinju a user as well
 * If it's Wood Release, Shinju can use Wood Release
 * If it isn't Wood Release, Hashirama just stole the technique's name that was used many generation ago and of which he couldn't have known--Elveonora (talk) 13:04, June 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * But how do we know Hashirama didn't invent his Nativity of a World of Trees based off giant root mummy technique? Why would the Sage show a technique that his mother didn't use, when explaining just what his mother was doing?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:43, June 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * We actually don't know how she could have attached the people to the Shinju anyway. She wasn't its jinchuuriki, so it's a mystery, it really is :(--Elveonora (talk) 18:21, June 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not to mention that didn't actually say Kaguya did that. I re-read those chapters. He was warning Naruto that Madara already had gained a power close to his own by becoming the jinchūriki, and that he planned to connect everyone to the Shinju so that a new fruit would be born, and he'd gain a power closer to Kaguya's. He never stated Kaguya connected anyone to the tree. In fact, he specifically indicated that the tree was pissed off and rampaged because of Kaguya stealing its fruit, so that kinda blows the theory, that she somehow controlled the tree, out of the water. Nowhere in that chapter does it mention Kaguya used this technique or anything like it. And if you think about it logically, too, there would've been no need for her to do that. She already ate the fruit, so why create a second fruit? No, he was specifically warning Naruto about Madara's goal. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 20:12, June 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Makes sense, except Madara seems clueless about second fruit and seemingly has done the IT to bring peace.--Elveonora (talk) 20:26, June 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Peace, my ass. Done everything to destroy peace, more likely. Regardless, that is what Hagoromo said. There is no mention of Kaguya preforming or even desiring to preform this technique. She is not a user. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 20:40, June 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Good, not for its nature, do you believe it to be Mokuton despite the different prefix? Hashirama recognized it as his own Mokuton technique, but how does a Mokuton connect people to the Shinju? Only if the Shinju has Mokuton or not?--Elveonora (talk) 20:43, June 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * First of all, I don't think the Shinju has Wood Release. At all. Secondly, prefix? Nah. I don't look at prefixes. If I did, I'd be one of the derps that think Lava Release: Rasenshuriken = no wind involvement despite the obvious blades of wind. Lastly, no, I don't believe this technique is Wood Release. Madara definitely jacked the basis of this technique, as well as is name, from Hashirama's Jukai Kōtan, but the Shinju's trunk is still on the battlefield. I say he's just manipulating the roots to connect everyone to what's left of the tree. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 20:54, June 3, 2014 (UTC)

Ok, so it's been confirmed that she used this. But I'm clueless to how the people are connected to the Shinju, even more in Kaguya's case since she wasn't its jinchuuriki. Also indeed interesting that Hash recognized the technique, that implies that it either indeed is Wood Release or that he created a technique based on this, but there's no way for him to have known about it--Elveonora (talk) 14:03, June 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Considering Madara has known almost everything about Kaguya and Hagoromo from a stone tablet, I'd say its not impossible that other records survived. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 04:58, June 7, 2014 (UTC)

Senjutsu?
Since it requires the Shinju's power and all--Elveonora (talk) 13:10, June 12, 2014 (UTC)

Bump--Elveonora (talk) 13:10, June 16, 2014 (UTC)

The Shinju a user
Same reasoning as my topic on Infinite Tsukuyomi talkpage. Not to mention the roots were specifically called "roots of the Shinju" so don't tell me the Shinju can't use its own roots--Elveonora (talk) 12:37, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

Bump--Elveonora (talk) 13:10, June 16, 2014 (UTC)

Mugen Tsukuyomi
Isn't this technique technically a child technique? It requires Mugen Tsukuyomi to work. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 21:48, July 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * How come?--Elveonora (talk) 22:03, July 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * As per the article, this technique doesn't require the technique to work. One could use this technique without the Infinite Tsukuyomi and it'll still work, albeit not well because the guy will be awake.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 22:04, July 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not true. Without it, no one is in a genjutsu, therefore no one can be tangled up (it only went after victims. Not Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, or Kakashi even after Susanoo came down), and no one turned into White Zetsu. That's my reasoning. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 22:06, July 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * The user might as well pick up a rock, smash the victim's head with it to put him/her unconscious and then proceed to tree orgy part, so yeah, not required--Elveonora (talk) 22:08, July 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * They are in the genjutsu as soon as their eyes transform. After that, it's merely requires the user to "Wrap up those in the genjutsu". Team Kakashi was not in the genjutsu, thus they weren't targeted. Two techniques being used together doesn't necessarily mean they require each other, unless a third technique is made.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 22:10, July 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Foxie, oh, your point is that the roots target only those trapped in IF? I wouldn't say that's evidence a/the genjutsu is needed. Remember, Kaguya decided to suck them out dry herself. I suppose that if she wanted, she would have cast Infinite Tsukuyomi on Team 7 and Obito separately, but she decided to make it personal, that's why I think the roots didn't target them, that's all--Elveonora (talk) 22:21, July 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ignoring Elve's remark since it proves nothing @Ulti: Madara distinctly wanted to be rid of Team Kakashi. If, as you say, Madara could simply wrap them up awake, and as Minato says, victims of this technique are continually wrapped up, even once free of the wrappings, then why did he simply not "direct" it to wrap them up? Simple. He couldn't. They weren't in the genjutsu. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 22:14, July 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because wrapping them up and them still being not-genjutsu'd would have been more of a waste of time and he simply could have just wasted them? Madara also wanted to complete the Eye of the Moon Plan as soon as they got the Ten-Tails, but he was more than happy to waste time slaughtering the Alliance. He very well could just be an asshole.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 22:18, July 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * True enough. Its hilarious that is a reason, but it is true. I relent. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 22:19, July 21, 2014 (UTC)

You knew this was coming
Now that it's known about Kaguya's possession of Wood Release and that Hashirama himself recognized this as his very own technique, this is clearly Wood Release--Elveonora (talk) 10:17, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * And here I am, thinking that we should wait for the raws about that Wood Release sentence... but whatever, it's not like you'd ever learn. • Seelentau 愛 議 10:22, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * We can wait sure, but what then?--Elveonora (talk) 10:23, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then we'll see. Mind you, I'm not against adding this as Wood Release, I'm just against gunjumping. • Seelentau 愛 議 10:36, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Bumping this, now that raws are semi-confirmed. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 20:40, August 28, 2014 (UTC)