Talk:Truth-Seeking Ball

Being Permanently Lost
had this question...was it stated anywhere in the databook that the TSBs can be permanently lost...because I'm looking at the reference for it [chapter 669] & no one ever said that these things can be lost forever...or am I mistaken... --DARK ZERO--talk 22:04, May 24, 2015 (UTC)
 * Observation.--Elve Talk Page 22:11, May 24, 2015 (UTC)
 * Minato said so, I think. • Seelentau 愛 議 22:13, May 24, 2015 (UTC)

where exactly did he say that...I'm reading the mangastream scans...even if he did say it no one knew shit about them & he talks like he know if they can be permanently lost & shit?...I see no reliability in his presumed saying...& what do U mean by observation...yes we haven't seen anymore being created by any of the users [except kaguya which is a different case being an exception in many areas & her TSB was an expansive one so let's not discuss that now] but that doesn't mean that they can NEVER be regenerated or recreated... --DARK ZERO--talk 22:33, May 24, 2015 (UTC)
 * Naruto, Obito and Madara spent them one by one. Feel free to re-read the chapters and see for yourself.--Elve Talk Page 05:58, May 25, 2015 (UTC)

what kind of logic is that...just because they didn't recreate them during one single night it doesn't mean they can't do it forever...are you telling me that that bastard hagoromo NEVER used a single one of his fucking balls that he has all of them when he spoke to naruto & sasuke in their minds...plus, the only time we have seen them getting destroyed was when kaguya took over madara and his balls [you can say both his TSB balls & his actuall balls] disintegrated...unless there is a statement in the databook that these can be PERMANENTLY lost, we need to remove it from the article...because nowhere in the damn manga we have heard such a thing...& also one more perfect proof is that obito lost all of his balls before losing the 10tails & he RECREATED one from madara's chakra...not enough proof for you?..U can go see it for yourself too... --DARK ZERO--talk 07:23, May 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * He recreated it from Black Zetsu~ • Seelentau 愛 議 09:49, May 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * @Dark Zero- the expletives are unnecessary, ad is the caps lock rage. With regards to how that section is worded, it may be accurate but it is ambiguous at best. Lost forever is a cliffhanger statement as opposed to "cannot be regenerated" which is what I'm assuming they wanted to say. Would that suffice?—Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 11:06, May 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Again... Per Cerez365. 11:14, May 25, 2015 (UTC)

@seel seriously :|...since when is BZ made of TSB to recreate one from it...if this is the case then add it to either the TSB page or the BZ or obito's page that he indeed recreated one from it...but I honestly think your mistaken...he created it from the chakra he absorbed from madara...he just moved BZ's coating up his hand so that he could wield the ball/staff... @cerez I uh.......didn't understand the first line of your reply :D sry...so you are suggesting to leave it be as it is even though it has been proven otherwise that TSBs CAN indeed be recreated just like how obito did?..ok...your choice... --DARK ZERO--talk 12:19, May 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * BZ isn't made out of TSB. Obito created a black orb and formed a staff out of BZ and used Senjutsu chakra on it to deflect Madara's TSB. Nothing else. It's a make-shift TSB, lacking the five natures. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:34, May 25, 2015 (UTC)

Why...
...do we use a game image when we also have an anime one? Iloveinoxxx (talk) 11:25, May 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * I assume it's because we've done so on the Six Paths Sage Mode article (though, there's no anime rendition of the mode yet) and we've done the same on the Nine-Tails Chakra Mode article. 11:29, May 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * I concur with WindStar, but also because the depictions in the anime are slightly blurred or hard to obtain. The game image is sharper and focuses better in the infobox. --Sajuuk talk 12:01, May 25, 2015 (UTC)

Misinterpretation
The Shakujou is not made of the Gudoudama as the Gudoudama's original shape is a ball and it only can stay in a different shape for a period of time. The Gudoudama literally means "seeking for truth" (求道 gudō) "ball" (玉 dama). Thus stating that the Shakujou is made of the Gudoudama is a contradiction. Although it is the same as the Gudoudama that can change its shape, however, the Shakujou seems to have its own shape, thus it should be specifically classified as a separate object. MangaJamesNathanAnime (talk) 04:06, June 26, 2015 (UTC)
 * On Chapter 672, when Gai uses his "Night Guy", Madara only has the Shakujō left; no Gudōdama. After he gets kicked, the Shakujō is gone and he has one Gudōdama. Would you like to explain that? --Atrix471 (talk) 22:03, June 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Whose shakujo are you talking about? • Seelentau 愛 議 22:04, June 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Madara's. There before the kick, gone after. No Gudōdama before the kick, one after. --Atrix471 (talk) 22:06, June 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Not you, I meant the OP^^ • Seelentau 愛 議 22:09, June 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * That, I'm not sure. But the Shakujou was blown away on that same chapter 672 when he was kicked (as you said that it was gone) and Madara was sent flying at least more than 70 meters (then appears the Gudoudama out of nowhere). Regarding Obito's confrontation talk with Madara on chapter 665, it seemed though he used Black Zetsu's mass to form the Shakujou even though it seemed to take the shape of the Gudoudama first (kinda short/tiny for the usual Gudoudama) before it took the shape of the Shakujou. The Shakujou seemed to have been depicted differently from the Gudoudama in terms of shape and that to consider Gudoudama's literal name and literal reference. My point is both the Gudoudama and the Shakujou are pretty much of the same thing as both can change shape and float but it does seem to differ and thought it'd be better to specify the Shakujou's classification in name. MangaJamesNathanAnime (talk) 04:07, June 26, 2015 (UTC)

SPS
According to this SPS is parent to TSB after all, hence all TSB users are SPS users.--Elve  Talk Page 13:43, July 11, 2015 (UTC)
 * Why do you always twist the words from the manga and databooks? It doesn't say anything like that. On the contrary, it says "Those who awakened SPS have the TSB". Not "Those who have the TSB have SPS". Please stop misusing my translations. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:49, July 11, 2015 (UTC)
 * Um how is that different? You get SPS > you get TSB also. Unless you suggest you can get TSB without SPS.--Elve Talk Page 13:51, July 11, 2015 (UTC)
 * Exactly: You get SPS > you get TSB also. That's not the same as "You have TSB = you have SPS". How is that so hard to grasp? It's almost the same as your problem with Kaguya and the Ten-Tails. It's a common mistake while making logical conclusions, but you should really work on that. No insult intended. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:56, July 11, 2015 (UTC)
 * My point is there's no other way to get TSB mentioned is there. Does the expansive tsb have its own entry?--Elve Talk Page 13:57, July 11, 2015 (UTC)
 * You might have noticed that many things weren't mentioned in the databook. Yet Madara and Obito have the TSB w/o using SPS. And yes, I translated it as well in that thread. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:58, July 11, 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you bud, sorry for jumping to conclusions.--Elve Talk Page 14:01, July 11, 2015 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong here in translation shouldn't it be Kekkei Tōta instead of Kekkei Mōra? this line- This is a power that easily exceeds both "Kekkei Genkai" and "Kekkei Mora".--Mecha Naruto (talk) 14:21, July 11, 2015 (UTC)
 * ...I'm doing those translations late at night, so mistakes can happen. Thanks for the notice ^^ • Seelentau 愛 議 14:35, July 11, 2015 (UTC)

Number of orbs
Was a TSB ever transformed into a shakujo? Or a shakujo into a TSB? I'm asking this because when Obito gained control of the Ten-Tails, he had at most nine orbs and one shakujo. When Madara confronted Kakashi and the others, he had nine orbs and a shakujo as well. Same goes for Hagoromo when he first appeared in Naruto's subconscious. So either the shakujos aren't transformed orbs or everyone actually starts out with ten orbs. This would fit with Hamura having only five orbs, which is the exact half of ten and would fit the whole sun/moon imaginery. Oh and only Naruto had 9 orbs after he entered godmode. • Seelentau 愛 議 22:57, July 12, 2015 (UTC)

Nevermind. I suggest you guys look into my recent additions to the article, though. Maybe needs some rewording. • Seelentau 愛 議 23:37, July 12, 2015 (UTC)

On a related topic: Do you guys think it has something to do with the Ten-Tails/nine beasts that Madara, Hagoromo and Obito had ten orbs, while Naruto only had nine? • Seelentau 愛 議 20:44, August 1, 2015 (UTC)

highly likely...naruto had 9TBs in him...through them he had [pseudo] jubi's chakra but didn't actually have the TB so it's natural th@ he gets 9orbs...but the other 2, since they have the TB itself & by extension the other 9 they get 10 orbs... --DARK ZERO--talk 20:57, August 1, 2015 (UTC)

Black Zetsu mentioned in the article
Wait, wuh? So Black Zetsu is made of TSB now??? Or can be shifted into one? Where was I when this piece of information was interpreted? Would anyone like to shed some light on this?--Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 08:21, July 13, 2015 (UTC)
 * It isn't stated that BZ's made of TSB, only that Obito used part of its mass to create a makeshift TSB, then infused it with the Six Paths Sage Power he took from Madara to repel the TSBs thrown at him by the latter.--JOA2009:18, July 13, 2015 (UTC)
 * No, he isn't "made of TSB".^^ Obito used him to create a make-shift TSB. I thought it should be mentioned there, I can move it back to the trivia, if you guys want. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:31, July 13, 2015 (UTC)
 * Ah okay. Thank you for the clarification. I do see that it's mentioned that he took some of Madara's power to infusse it into to the staff. Maybe I misread it the first time. Something like this should be left in the trivia tho. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 14:52, July 13, 2015 (UTC)

Are we really absolutely 100% sure that obito made a MAKE-SHIFT TSB from BZ?..I haven't seen the anime episode for it but how can a make-shift one created out of BZ be capable of repelling two original ones as when obito used it to defend himself from madara's TSBs?..I just can't understand this part...I believe obito made one from the chakra he stole from madara...not BZ...& again the simple fact that obito created a new TSB after he even lost the TT scratches the idea that TSBs can't be regenerated or recreated or lost forever or what ever...sry to bring this up again but it just keeps bugging me... --DARK ZERO--talk 07:38, July 26, 2015 (UTC)
 * Obito didn't steal chakra from Madara, only Senjutsu chakra. He used that Senjutsu chakra on his shakujo to repel Madara's TSBs. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:44, July 26, 2015 (UTC)

where is that written...& don't tell me in the manga cuz nowhere in it anybody ever mentioned such a thing...if you're gonna say observation, then I'm saying I did it too & I observed he stole chakra...whether it's senjutsu, TB, TT, madara's, or Bin Laden's I donno, but one thing I'm sure it was a goddamn chakra...& he used THAT to create the TSB...it doesn't even make sense to create a jutsu from a will materialized & manifested...unless it is written in the databook that obito specifically created it from him, then I'm not buying anything else...I think he only pulled that bastard up alittle so that he could pass the TSB through his hand without BZ interfering... --DARK ZERO--talk 11:56, July 26, 2015 (UTC)
 * Seel's point is that Obito first made the TSB and only then stole Madara's chakra.--Elve Talk Page 11:59, July 26, 2015 (UTC)
 * My point is that you can see in the manga how he creates the shakujo and absorbs chakra afterwards. That chakra are the biju and Madara's Senjutsu chakra. Madara even said Obito absorbed Senjutsu chakra along with the biju. Also, Obito has no control over Black Zetsu so he can't pull him up. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:05, July 26, 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry for meddling i am neutral to this matter but maybe BZ was pulled back because of Jutsu negating properties of TSB, even Naruto used TSB rods to restrain him - which means Black Zetsu is affected by TSB. ./ Rage gtx (talk) 12:11, July 26, 2015 (UTC)
 * But Black Zetsu isn't a technique :O • Seelentau 愛 議 12:12, July 26, 2015 (UTC)

Naruto stabbed BZ with TSB/Rikudo Rod whatever and it didn't disappear.--Elve Talk Page 12:23, July 26, 2015 (UTC)

Of course BZ isn't a jutsu who said such a thing...& elve I know what seel's points is...I donno if he understands mine...yes BZ didn't disappear but it stopped him from moving, didn't it... seel...if he absorbed the chakra after he created the TSB then why the fuck did he shoved his hand into madara's boobs in the first place...he did that to get some chakra, create the ball, and THEN attempted to steal TB chakra too...just because we didn't see him absorb the chakra a millisecond aftar he pierced madara's chest doesn't meqn he didn't do it at that moment... --DARK ZERO--talk 12:35, July 26, 2015 (UTC)

oh & 1 more thing...obito HAD control over zetsu...a good example is when BZ tried to separate himself from obito to go to madara but obito stopped him & stuck him to himself...remember that seel? --DARK ZERO--talk 12:43, July 26, 2015 (UTC)
 * If he isn't a jutsu, you can't negate him with YYR, duh. And ther was no chakra absorption visible when he created the TSB. Also, Madara only talked about Senjutsu chakra, not normal chakra. There's literally nothing that indicates Obito absorbed normal chakra. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:52, July 26, 2015 (UTC)

I didn't say you can negate BZ with TSB I only said U can restrain him with it...DUH...& I responded to elve regarding that matter...also, I didn't say he stole NORMAL chakra...of course it wasn't normal chakra because TSB isn't made of normal chakra...I said whatever shit type of chakra he stole, he used THAT stolen chakra to create the goddamn ball...why is it that hard for you to understand that...U can't create a jutsu out of people like that..you can only create it from their chakras...again just because it wasn't visible to you or me or anybody else that he was stealing it at that exact moment doesn't mean he didn't do it...hell, chakra or senjutsu chakra is said to be usually invisible to the naked eye...maybe the reason it was visible for you after he created the TSB is because he started steling the TB chakra...TB chakras are normally visible...I donno why or how you can ask that from the author...I just know that obito creating a TSB out of BZ is a ridiculous idea...no offense mate...--DARK ZERO--talk 13:05, July 26, 2015 (UTC)
 * Truth-Seeking Balls are made of malleable black chakra. Black Zetsu is made of a malleable black mass. The physical similarities simply made it convenient for Obito to shape BZ into a "makeshift" TSB. He didn't "create" a technique, he merely applied certain attributes - Senjutsu chakra - to a physical structure of vaguely similar properties to the TSB - Black Zetsu's own malleable mass - in order to protect himself from Madara's real version, in the same way you can flow chakra through weaponry and oneself.--Atrix471 (talk) 15:54, July 26, 2015 (UTC)
 * Excellent explanation and exactly what I couldn't convey. Thank you, good sir. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:08, July 26, 2015 (UTC)

God bless snapper's poem... --DARK ZERO--talk 19:42, July 26, 2015 (UTC)

Being Permanently Lost part 2
Just to point something... In the beginning of chapter 696, Naruto still had 3 TSB and in final pages you can see at least one behind him after he formed and threw Wind Release: Ultra-Big Ball Rasenshuriken and Tailed Beast Ball Rasenshuriken, which(according to its article) converts TSB to form TBB, which Naruto have done at maximum six in chapter 677(and even then they were not lost, since Naruto had six TSB left in the beginning of fight against Kaguya, while leaving three TSB to hold Madara's Limbo clone). So at very least Naruto had two(unless he converted two to form that giant TBBRS, which would leave him one)TSB left in the end of chapter 696, which is also their final appearence in the manga since in next chapter Six Paths Sage Mode was deactivated.--JouXIII (talk) 20:57, December 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * Even in the chapter 695, when Naruto used those 3 TSB to counter Sasuke's attack he regenerated 3 new ones when he was charging up his bijuu dama.--Itachi7000 (talk) 21:30, December 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * There's no indication he regenerated those three TSB. It's more likely they simply floated back to him off-panel because Susanoo arrows aren't enough to destroy them. At least they weren't enough during the earlier fight with Obito.--BeyondRed (talk) 22:09, December 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's my thoughts too.--JouXIII (talk) 22:12, December 4, 2015 (UTC)

In 695, I see him using them to counter Susanoo arrows, and not again after. In 696, three appear in the mindscape when Naruto and Sasuke talk, and you can see them in reality, very small and from afar just before Sasuke gathers the tailed beasts' chakra. You kinda see them again in mindscape when Kurama warns Naruto, and again in reality when Naruto makes the shadow clone seal. After the shadow clones, there's a moment Naruto sends three TBB. Then we see Naruto power up the two jutsu. The WR:UBBR isn't made from a TSB, because the core isn't black. The TBBRS should be, since that's how it worked before. In the last page of that chapter, you can see one by Naruto's shoulder, which leaves one TSB unaccounted for. Considering they're never seen again, I think it's reasonable to assume they're somehow lost, since Naruto never uses them again. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:15, December 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * In chapter 695, you can see TBS behind Naruto, when he's charging Tailed Beast Ball. Also, while he still has Six Paths Sage Mode, maybe Naruto requires specific chakra cloak(which he can form with Kurama alone, since chakra of other tailed beasts were used on Sage Art: Super Tailed Beast Rasenshuriken against Kaguya)? The chakra cloaks that he has used in Last, Gaiden and Boruto the Movie were full body glowy, while chakra cloack with TSB had only clothes and hair glowing. --JouXIII (talk) 22:35, December 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * Do we really know for certain that the cloak from Gaiden is full-body though? For what it's worth, you can actually see the bandages on Naruto's arm while he has the cloak on, which wasn't the case in The Last (haven't seen Boruto).--BeyondRed (talk) 22:41, December 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * In Gaiden chakra cloak Naruto has those black dots and lines on his hands that are on Kurama Mode, but not in basic Nine-tails chakra cloak or SPSM-chakra cloak.--JouXIII (talk) 22:57, December 4, 2015 (UTC)

The whole Last, Gaiden and Boruto issue is a nightmare. He has the lack of pigmentation and crossed pupils that define this, but lacks flight. He also only manifested the TSB when he activated the chakra cloak, so, there is some logic to them only being on when he has the chakra cloak on, but that didn't happen in Gaiden and Boruto. I know I can't possibly know how stressful and demanding writing and illustrating a manga is, but some times it's almost like Kishimoto adds inconsistencies on purpose, adding and changing plot points in a "discard and draw one card" manner. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:09, December 4, 2015 (UTC)


 * Wait, you mean to tell me Naruto actually made more Tailed Beast Balls?--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 23:19, December 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * Weird imagery bombards my mind upon reading "tailed beast balls"--Elve Talk Page 12:16, December 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) That's what you get with your mind in the gutter.
 * 2) You know I meant Truth Seeking Balls.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 01:01, December 7, 2015 (UTC)

I don't think he has made more, or at least I certainly didn't notice. If it were possible to make more, then the limit of 9-10 of them wouldn't make sense in itself, because one in theory could start with 50 as an example and make a new one every second or even several.--Elve Talk Page 04:49, December 7, 2015 (UTC)

Origin of Hamura's TSB
We currently state that Hamura's Truth-Seeking Balls come from the Tenseigan, but isn't that speculation? We see in both the manga and The Last that Hamura has them with only his Byakugan activated, whereas Toneri's only appeared while he was in Tenseigan Chakra Mode, similar to Naruto's. We should add under acquisition that Hagoromo and Hamura seemingly inherited the ability to create the balls from their mother, since Hagoromo had his before even becoming the Ten-Tails' jinchūriki. On a related note, how exactly was it determined that Toneri had nine TSB? Depending on what frame you look at, he can have as many as twelve (and that's after turning one into a cage for Hinata). The movie is completely inconsistent about it.--BeyondRed (talk) 08:13, January 27, 2016 (UTC)

The Tenseigan grants one access to the Tenseigan Chakra Mode, which grants one the Truth-Seeking Balls. Why no one has added TSM to him despite this conclusion is beyond me (Even though Danzo possesses Regeneration Ability despite never showing it and having Hashi's cells...) Reading Hamura's article, it states that he sealed the Tenseigan's power into the Tenseigan Energy Vessel. So he could in fact still have the Tenseigan, but it could be weak, power wise. Because he is the only shinobi who has possessed the Tenseigan (depowered) but still retain his Byakugan, maybe he can still keep his Truth-Seeking Balls active, despite not having the dojutsu itself active. I just wish people would elaborate more on subjects like characters possessing something, despite never showing it, and just assuming they having it and giving it to them. IT makes no sense to do it to one character and not do it for another, especially when evidence is there. Princeharris1993 07:08, February 14, 2016 (UTC)

Hagoromo and Hamura both had TSBs prior to becoming the Ten-Tails' Jinchuriki and going to the Moon. Therefore, they both clearly inherited it from their mother. Hamura didn't even unlock Tenseigan until he went to the Moon, so he had the TSBs beforehand like Hagoromo did. We literally saw them both using them during their fight against the Ten-Tails which proves they had them prior. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 07:12, February 14, 2016 (UTC)

According to his page: At some point, Hamura had awoken the Tenseigan in his own eyes, and before his death, he sealed their power into the Energy Vessel." It never said he awakened it after going to the moon. Did you get this information from the movie?" -- Princeharris1993 07:24, February 14, 2016 (UTC)

I saw the movie myself, but that was nearly two years ago so I may have forgotten something. But I'm certain it was stated that he awoken it when he went to the Moon. That's the main reason why the Tenseigan can control the Moon, and that would explain why it wasn't activated during the battle against their mother. Or have I just been imagining things and wrong this whole time? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 09:06, February 14, 2016 (UTC)


 * Nothing about Hamura awakening the Tenseigan is said in the movie or its guidebook. Going by those, it's never even explained why the "energy vessel" is also called the Tenseigan. Supposedly all that information about Hamura having the Tenseigan comes from the novelisation, but it's currently still unsourced.--BeyondRed (talk) 16:12, February 14, 2016 (UTC)

Well that's great. I'm sure there's a way to find out more about the novelisation, considering we have so many Boruto novelisation citations already. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 08:17, February 15, 2016 (UTC)

I have a link to translation of the novel somewhere.--Elve Talk Page 14:23, February 15, 2016 (UTC)
 * Here it is --Elve Talk Page 20:30, February 16, 2016 (UTC)

Turning Everything to Dust
Do they automatically turn everything to dust, regardless of the user's intentions? Sasuke was able to stand on the platform due to having Six Paths power and thus is immune to the effects?Cloudtheavenger (talk) 17:34, February 4, 2016 (UTC)
 * Sakura wasn't turned to dust either, and Madara actually was trying to harm her, unlike Naruto with Sasuke. So it must not be automatic (and Madara didn't activate it for some unknown reason).--BeyondRed (talk) 09:32, February 5, 2016 (UTC)

Madara's TSB
I just want to be clear. Madara sent 5 onto Guy, which Minato teleported away and used 4 as a sphere shield, which Kakashi warped some of it away and Guy destroyed, right?Cloudtheavenger (talk) 04:48, February 23, 2016 (UTC)

Ice Dimension
When Naruto tried to escape the ice that Kaguya had trapped them in, they struggled, and could barely move - Should this be noted? Pesa123456789 (talk) 22:37, March 29, 2016 (UTC)

Senjutsu
Isn't this one? Haven't any statements been made that natural energy or senjutsu chakra play role in this technique? Also apparently, The Last novel says that the Tenseigan absorbs natural energy and it's said natural energy that powered the puppets and the moon ecosystem.--Elve Talk Page 18:31, June 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * It wasn't classified as Senjutsu in the databook. If it would use Senjutsu chakra, wouldn't it combust or something? Being weak to itself and all that...? • Seelentau 愛 議 18:34, June 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * But most TSB users are also Senjutsu users. Not to mention doesn't it say that these float behind a SPS user?--Elve Talk Page 19:10, June 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * Doesn't explain how Toneri would have them if it requires SPS. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:16, June 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, the databooks states that they float behind those who blossomed the SPS. But something I noticed looking at the raw, it says Rikudō no Senjutsu. I don't think this term is used anywhere else... • Seelentau 愛 議 20:35, June 8, 2016 (UTC)

Well, Hamura was shown to have TSB and Toneri got his after getting Tenseigan, so there may be a relation between Tenseigan and Hamura's TSB and thus SPS--Elve Talk Page 09:53, June 9, 2016 (UTC)
 * Bump, this still bothers me. Is there literally no statement or at least suggestion that TSB uses natural energy/senjutsu chakra in either manga or the databooks? Since those with Six Paths Senjutsu get these. Hamura and Toneri had them too and while they haven't been stated to be Six Paths Senjutsu users to my knowledge, it's just a reasonable assumption, isn't it? Also supposedly in The Last novel, Tenseigan is said to make use of natural energy/senjutsu chakra or whatever, which would make Toneri a Sage/Senjutsu user and confirm Hamura as well. It really hasn't been fully translated, has it?--Elve Talk Page 21:06, July 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * About Tenseigan using Natural Energy, I believe it was said about Tenseigan (Energy Vessel). --JouXIII (talk) 21:19, July 8, 2016 (UTC)

And the Tenseigan Energy Vessel is powered by the Tenseigan eye. So obviously, it has some connection to Natural Energy. Princeharris1993 21:21, July 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * There's still Naruto's statement to Sasuke about "fighting natural energy with natural energy" after he used senjutsu to injure Obito, but he could be referring to his apparent immunity to regular ninjutsu rather than the TSB. Or maybe the TSB literally use natural energy but not senjutsu chakra, like Tenpenchii (and probably Kaguya's "one with nature" ability).--BeyondRed (talk) 22:00, July 8, 2016 (UTC)

I also recall Naruto stating that he used natural energy against natural energy when he harmed Juubito who was immune to practically everything else and after Gamakichi harmed the TSBs with his technique. Wouldn't this confirm that TSBs utilize senjutsu which is why senjutsu can only harm them? This coupled with the fact that all of it's known users employ senjutsu? Toneri should also be listed as a Six Paths Senjutsu user should he not? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 22:16, July 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Naruto attributed senjutsu working against Juubito both because he saw Gamakichi's attack not be nullified, and because he remembered that when he sensed the Ten-Tails' power with Sage Mode way back when it first, he said it was like natural energy. I do not think base TSB uses senjutsu, otherwise Naruto, who has trained in senjutsu, would have sensed it. The reason why TSB made all ninjutsu useless is because of YYR, not senjutsu. If senjutsu was the reason, every senjutsu would simply negate ninjutsu. Also, nothing suggests Toneri has Six Paths Senjutsu, and the current rationale for Hamura using it is also rather flimsy. Hamura is listed as SPS because Six Paths Chibaku Tensei is said to be usable only by those who awakened it. By that logic, Sasuke would also be a SPS user, which he clearly is not. Clearly, only one of the two users of SPCT needs to have awakened it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:37, July 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * That and The Last novel supposedly saying all that stuff about Hamura's Tenseigan harnessing natural energy, though that's still unconfirmed. And for what it's worth, aside from stating Six Paths Senjutsu is required, the SPCT databook entry is also listed as kekkei genkai, implying the Rinnegan is necessary, and we know neither Hamura nor Naruto had that.--BeyondRed (talk) 23:53, July 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * @Omni, Hamura and Toneri used TSB and 4th databook says it comes from Six Paths Senjutsu tho--Elve Talk Page 03:18, July 20, 2016 (UTC)
 * And yet neither Hagoromo nor Hamura are listed as TSB users, so forgive me for not putting much stock in the databook. It saying those who awaken SPS have TSB does not equal TSB must come from SPS. There is no unquestionable definition of Hamura ever having SPS, neither does Toneri. Also, Kaguya, who had THE biggest TSB, is not mentioned as having anything to do with SPS. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:56, July 20, 2016 (UTC)