Talk:Asura Ōtsutsuki

Image
Cood i have the image added 2 the page...thanks--Moiz1224 (talk) 04:30, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

inheritance
What is the lifeforce that inherited to the senju clan and why in the article says willpower?
 * life force is the stamina and willpower is essentially the person's determination e, courage all that good stuff etc--Cerez365 (talk) 19:29, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

Ok if liforce is stamina then its chakra too the both Senju and uchiha has powerfull chakra so they both inherited the sage's chakra...

It's not a very clearly cut inheritance, so you should probably try not to dig too much into that. Also, sign your posts with four tildes, or use the signature button, it's the fourth from right to left above the field where you type when editing. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:02, January 12, 2011 (UTC)

Yang Release
The Senju Clan Ancestor could use Yang Release?

"He was born with the Sage's "body" (the willpower and physical energy) and believed that love was the key to peace."

"The techniques, based on the physical energy that governs vitality, can be used to breathe life into form."

Could say the same of Uchiha Clan Ancestor but with Yin Release? --Leodix/My Talk/Contributions''' 07:36, January 20, 2011 (UTC)


 * If you say that friend, then you're assuming that the Sage's sons only have one sided chakra.--Cerez365 (talk) 12:18, January 20, 2011 (UTC)

Trivia Section
Hey, I just looked at the Elder Son's page and noticed that in the trivia section, it shows the theory of Hyuuga and Uchiha both descending from him since he inherited Doujutsu from him father. It was said in the Manga that the Uzumaki were relatives to the Senju, and they had abnormally long lives, which is an obvious hint at them inheriting the Sage's Body via the Younger Son... Should someone put the fact that the Senju AND Uzumaki descended from the Younger Son in his trivia section since his brother has his tree pointed out on his page? 2Smoothuwg11 (talk) 10:53, February 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * No. ~SnapperTo 17:39, February 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * Why not? I don't see how it's not vital information considering it's factual that the Senju are relatives of the Uzumaki clan. If they're relatives, like how the Uchiha and Hyuuga clan are, why wouldn't it be pointed out that they're related to the Younger Son, similarly to the Senju clan? 2Smoothuwg11 (talk) 08:43, February 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * Because it's said in the series that the Uchiha are descended from the Hyuga. That conflicts with the Uchiha being descended from this guy, and so it is mentioned. The Senju-Uzumaki relationship does not conflict with anything, so there is nothing that needs to be pointed out. ~SnapperTo 18:24, February 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * But the Uzumaki's need to be mentioned on this page since Senju's aren't the only ones who are descendants of this "younger brother". --Alastar 89 (talk) 20:29, April 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * For all we know, the Sage could have had a third kid. They said that Senju and Uzumaki are distantly related. We don't know how distant it actually is. So saying that the Uzumaki clan is descended from the Senju Clan Ancestor is speculation, even if it's plausible.Ryne 91 (talk) 20:57, April 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * If the Senju's are direct descendents of the Younger brother and the Uzumaki's are related to the Senju's, shouldn't the Uzumaki's also be direct descendents. For example a female senju marries a male Uzumaki, all Uzumaki's are related to this Uzumaki male and Senju female; this would mean that all Uzumaki are related to the Senju's hence related to the Sage of Six paths. --Alastar 89 (talk) 21:40, April 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * The Uzumaki and Senju could also both be descended from a third person, wholly unrelated to the Sage. The very first Senju could have married someone from Clan X, who had a sibling who married the very first Uzumaki. This would make the Senju and Uzumaki distantly related, without the Uzumaki being related to the younger son of the Sage. —ShounenSuki (talk 22:48, April 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks...I thought of that shortly after posting that and signing off. (I had a face palm moment). Though what about Madara when he is talking to Yamato/Kakashi/Naruto, he is comparing Naruto and Sasuke as continuing the battle between these two groups (older brother and younger brother). Is he only implying that it is only somekind of philosophical relation? Where the will of fire is passed on but then why does he make it sound like their is a physical resemblance as in there was a genetic relation. Is it the physical appearence of determination shows and creates the resemblance? Chapter 462 page 14 >link> --Alastar 89 (talk) 23:19, April 3, 2011 (UTC)

His descendants, who would become the Uchiha clan?
in background it said His descendants, who would become the Uchiha clan, but isn't he the senju clan creator?
 * Its talking about the Uchiha ancestor.--Deva 27 01:06, September 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * I reworded it a bit to reflect that, others might have that problem as well.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 01:08, September 22, 2011 (UTC)

Shakujō as a weapon
We have seen him using it, should not it be added ? --Elveonora (talk) 05:09, November 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * We did? When? —ShounenSuki (talk 12:47, November 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * In chapter 462 i'm assuming. In the manga at least, we can't tell what those are though, it could just be a bō.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 12:51, November 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * Hey, won't you look at that. Completely forgot about that image…
 * If you look closely, you can see a thickening at the top, implying it is a shakujō and not a bō. It also makes sense that the sons each inherited one of their father's weapons. I wouldn't be against adding the weapons. —ShounenSuki (talk 13:03, November 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * From that perspective, it'd also have symbolic meaning as well no?--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 13:25, November 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * I would say so, definitely. The younger son inheriting the shakujō symbolises his desire for love, whereas the older son inheriting the sword symbolises his lust for power. —ShounenSuki (talk 14:55, November 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * I think saying they inherited it is a bit speculative, just saying they use the same type of weapons as their father should be sufficient. S im A nt 17:03, November 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * Oh, I didn't mean they literally inherited them. —ShounenSuki (talk 17:37, November 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah. Not inherited, though I guess it would make a good trivia point.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 19:14, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, its symbolic ... they both are halves of their father. Thanks ShounenSuki. --Elveonora (talk) 22:02, November 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * I hadn't thought of the symbolism in this, though in the image, I think it's a bit hard to actually see which brother is holding which weapon. The symbolism works, but can we actually see which brother is holding which weapon? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:58, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Madara is fighting in the place of the brother with a sword, and Hashirama staff. Clealer to see in anime. --Elveonora (talk) 00:11, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Uhm, I'm not 100% on what either of you are saying, but in the manga at least, we can clearly see who's holding what (well as clear as silhouettes go). As for the Madara and Hashirama bit, I cannot tell what those are, one looks like a scythe... maybe O.o?--Cerez365™ 00:16, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Cerez, Omni is asking if we are sure its younger brother with staff and elder with a sword, not opposite. But what Shounen said about staff representing love and sword power + "convinced he should have been chosen, the elder could not accept the decision and attacked his brother in hatred. Would be weird if he attacked his younger brother in hatred with a monk staff I think and also the silhouettes match them because the younger weared a forehead protector. And about Madara/Hashirama stuff, im not talking about their weapons ... just saying Madara is fighting at side of elder brother and Hashirama younger. --Elveonora (talk) 00:23, November 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * So we sure which brother holds shakujō and which holds sword, aren't we?--LeafShinobi (talk) 21:37, November 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * In the anime, it's clear. In the manga though you'd have to assume from what the weapons symbolise and the later positions of Madara and Hashirama during the story. I tried to find distinguishing features and apart from what might be the tied portion of the younger son's forehead protector, there are none.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 21:47, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Conflicting inheritance
His article says it was "life force and physical energy" but Senju Clan article says "strength of will" instead of life force, which is correct?--Elveonora (talk) 15:27, May 14, 2013 (UTC)

Bump--Elveonora (talk) 17:07, May 16, 2013 (UTC)

I have no idea. Making slight change to topic name so it doesn't conflict with the first inheritance topic. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:30, May 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Cerez, can you check please?--Elveonora (talk) 17:32, May 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Going from what Shounensuki said, he translated it as life force and physical energy. So I changed the Senju article to reflect that. I really wish we would get some clarification on these terms so we could create a glossary or something.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 19:32, May 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you. The strength of mind was likely from scanlation, we have to make sure it's worded even and correctly among many articles.--Elveonora (talk) 19:41, May 16, 2013 (UTC)

Kurama's jinchuuriki?
In the falshback that shows him fighting against Indra, he is seen using what looks like a version of the Nine-Tails Chakra Mode. So he must've been Kurama's jinchuuriki at the time, right? Noweeaboohoo (talk) 06:55, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thats not Kurama.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 07:14, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * I was under the impression that it was, judging from the pattern of the cloak....what do you think it's instead? Noweeaboohoo (talk) 07:21, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Raw untapped power of someone who inherited the Sage's power.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 07:23, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Something like that. At the every least it will explain why Naruto's mantle looks different than everyone else's but Kurama doesn't have 2 faces and 6 hands.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 07:37, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

It has tails, though. Maybe a different tailed beast? MangekyoSasuke (talk) 07:57, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Enma has a tail as well.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:13, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

This has MULTIPLE distinct tails. It looks almost just like naruto's Nine-Tails Chakra Mode (it even has some of the same markings). It has two faces and only slightly different markings, which could easily be explained by the fact that it is the combined whole of both Yin and Yang Kurama. It could easily have the multiple arms from Tailed Beast Chakra Arms. If it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, it's a duck. Skarrj (talk) 20:15, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * It most likely has three faces. Seelentau 愛議 20:21, March 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * Mito was said to be Kurama's first jinchūriki, but Kishi could have decided to retcon. The best thing to do would be to just wait for next week to see what Ashura was using. &#34;Demons run when a good man goes to war.&#34; (talk) 20:21, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yep, just as Madara and Izuna were said to be the first Mangekyō Sharingan users. I'd say that all accounted for more recent history. Anywho, I'm definitely seeing tails, and legs that look awfully similar to Naruto's Kurama Mode. I mean, I'm not going to vouch that it be put into the article, but I'm certainly betting on Asura being a Jinchuuriki. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 20:25, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * The specific wording for Madara and Izuna was "first in the history of their clan." Technically, Indra was the forerunner, but not truly an Uchiha. Semantics, yes, but still. &#34;Demons run when a good man goes to war.&#34; (talk) 22:56, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

Could be all 9 at once without the 10 tails body, a hint of what Naruto could look like. Arrancar79 (talk) 22:35, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

It has the legs, markings, face(s) and visual similarity of Kurama's Tailed Beast Mode. Skarrj (talk) 01:59, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's more accurately "Naruto's Tailed Beast Mode." Under normal circumstances, the Jinchuriki's Tailed Beast Mode would just create a physical manifestation of the beast. That Naruto's transformation resembles Asura's chakra cloak is more likely a result of something special about Naruto or the Eight Trigrams Seal itself than something from Kurama. Especially considering that Naruto inherited Asura's chakra. 00:33, March 28, 2014 (UTC)

Name
Not to be picky, but why are Ashura and Indra being given the Ōtsutsuki surname despite having never been called that?--JOA20 (talk) 07:59, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because we haven't been shown/told that they didn't use that surname or had other surnames, unlike Tsunade or Kimimaro. TricksterKing (talk) 08:11, March 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * That doesn't mean anything. All I get is that they were called Indra and Ashura, not Indra Ōtsutsuki and Ashura Ōtsutsuki. Until it is clearly stated that they took their father's surname, we shouldn't call them with it. At least that's how this wiki works...--JOA20 (talk) 08:16, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree with JOA20 on this. ~IndxcvNovelist (talk 08:52, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Dito. Seelentau 愛議 09:26, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't quite agree actually. With Tsunade and Kimimaro, we were actually consistently told their names without a clan name, despite knowing their clan. With that reasoning, I'm certain that at least a few Konoha clan members would not have their clan names. Hashirama and Tobirama's brothers for example, or a couple Hyūga and Uchiha. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:01, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * If we move them to Ashura/Indra Ōtsutsuki, we have to move Tsunade to Tsunade Senju and Kimimaro to Kimimaro Kaguya. Don't be inconsequent, please. Seelentau 愛議 14:04, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

Seelentau's right. About the clan members, if that's the case, then we should also remove the surname to those clan members. ~IndxcvNovelist (talk 14:08, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think I may have jumped the gun. I thought everyone was on board for the change. Any way, Tsunade and Kaguya are poor examples to use against Ashura and Indra. Look at every other clan member we've been introduced to: we've always added their last names perfunctorily. You can't tell me that the Sage — a male and son of the what seemed to be the ruler of the free world copulated and they decided to take the mother's name of Smith. The scales tilt more towards them bearing his last name than anything else. The only reason Tsunade for example isn't called Senju is because we don't know which parent was Hashirama's. Konohamaru if I remember correctly is also a fitting example of this.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:13, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Tsunade, Nawaki and Kimimaro names are confirmed in the databooks without their surnames. So, waiting for either next chapter or the next databook for more confirmation. — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 14:14, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * So we didn't name Tsunade a Senju because she wasn't called that in the databook/manga, but we name those two brothers Ootsutsuki becauce it's logical? Seelentau 愛議 14:16, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * I would because yes it follows logic; don't make it seem like I'm telling you we breathe water. I don't have an issue with leaving the last names off, but let me ask: if we find out the her father's last name is Senju, we'd ignore that because the databook never gave her a last name? --Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:30, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * First of all, we obviously can't expect Hagoromo to refer to his own sons with surnames, so we probably won't get any confirmation within the manga. Second, and more importantly, you can't really assume they had surnames -- traditionally speaking, Japanese people didn't start adopting surnames until the 1800s, and historical figures often would adopted names other than their clan name. Additionally, Japanese royalty has always eschewed surnames, instead adopting various titles. So it's not necessarily as simple as saying their father was an Ootsutsuki, so they are too. FF-Suzaku (talk) 17:52, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

Should we add Hagoromo's brother as the uncle of Ashura and Indra?
Should we add Hagoromo's brother as the uncle of Ashura and Indra? DetectiveDuckling (talk) 12:06, March 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * ...it's already there in the infobox.--JOA20 (talk) 12:07, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

Ashura vs Asura
If we're using the Sanskrit romanization for Indra, we should follow suit with Asura. Or vice versa, with Indora and Ashura if we're going for literal katakana romanizations. I'd prefer the Sanskrit romanizations, as the references are quite obvious. FF-Suzaku (talk) 17:27, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Totally agreed, even if you check Pain's Asura Path and Ashura's cloak mode. They have similar appearance in general, but it's better to wait for the raws for more confirmation about the romanization. — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 17:32, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * ^This. :) ~IndxcvNovelist (talk 17:59, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

I just mean that the romanization scheme needs to be consistent between the two: Asura and Indra (sanskrit) or Ashura and Indora (literal katakana), regardless of the name origins. I'd opt for Sanskrit for the same reasons as Rock Lee, Pain, etc.; foreign words rendered in Japanese. FF-Suzaku (talk) 18:15, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm assuming his name, come the raw, will be either 修羅 or 阿修羅 no? In which case, I believe the sanskrit would should be used, similar to the Six Paths techniques. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:46, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * There's not much use in speculating before the raw bootlegs go online, but they'll probably either be spelled out in katakana as アシュラ　and インドラ or kanji as 阿修羅 and 因陀羅. In either case, the characters have no meaning beyond their pronunciations. FF-Suzaku (talk) 19:50, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * If we use Ashura and Indora, we must also use Chakura. But yeah, let's wait for the raw and decide accordingly. Seelentau 愛議 19:29, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Could we not go hog monkey with this? Changing chakra to chakura seems a bit much....--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 20:22, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's why I agree with Suzaku. Seelentau 愛議 20:24, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * I see. Yes yes, Asura is fine. Indra is fine. We have several characters named Fu after all, having people's names be the same isn't gonna kill us.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 20:27, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

Asuras in hinduism have exactly the opposite behavior to the one depicted in Naruto. Asuras are the demons in hinduism who are always seek power. On the other hand Indra is the king of gods who is one of the good guys. Wonder why Kishi chose to name them in this way. It may be better if we choose Ashura instead of Asura? Photon1234 (talk)Photon1234
 * Probably because, in Japanese culture, at least, the asuras are emblematic of emotions like passion and fervor, while the devas are inherently dispassionate. Asura and Indra are also blatantly obvious references, and the katakana could literally have no other intended meanings. FF-Suzaku (talk) 19:06, March 28, 2014 (UTC)

Susanoo
Asura's battle avatar obviously isn't Susanoo, and anything linking the two would be speculative at this point, but there's still definitely a passing resemblance between them. Might this be worth mentioning in the Trivia? Setras (talk) 04:35, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think you're mixing the brothers up. The one with Susanoo is Indra. The only thing remotely related to Susanoo with Asura's Naruto-like Tailed Beast Mode is the presence of multiple arms (two more than what any Susanoo user has displayed) and two faces (like Madara's). Susanoo is also not mentioned once in Asura's article. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 05:04, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know Indra has Susanoo, and I know that Asura's technique isn't it- that was the first thing I pointed out. However, both techniques involve an etheral entity that encases the user, while they hover inside it (at least in the case of a Perfect Susanoo). Again, we can't really say much on how they may or may not be related, but there are definite similarities. Setras (talk) 05:51, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

jinchuuriki
I think latest chapter pretty much confirms so.--Elveonora (talk) 12:52, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * How? Seelentau 愛議 13:20, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Naruto has received chakras of Shukaku and Gyuki to complete power of Ashura, I suppose?--Elveonora (talk) 13:23, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Na. Seelentau 愛議 13:30, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ya. Isn't that obvious to you that Ashura's avatar was a merger of the tailed beasts'chakras, same as Naruto now has?--Elveonora (talk) 13:43, April 2, 2014 (UTC)