Talk:Shinra Tensei

I do not believe that the translation "God Conquers the Heavens" is accurate. "神羅天征" is made up of the kanji for god, lightweight fabric or clothing, the last one is subjuigation, however the 2nd to last is NOT heaven, it's Deva. The 2nd to last kanji is likely a reference to the Deva path that uses the technique. Translating this as God Conquers the Heavens is like as others have pointed out, translating the Deva path as the Heaven Path. In the absense of any good translation we should stick with the romaji in this case. I don't want another case like Kira Hachi where we put out a false translation and people start to take it as fact. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Nov 9, 2008 @ 14:58 (UTC)
 * I'd like to chime in here.


 * 天 does translate into Heaven, or Sky. However because the Japanese love to make their own language difficult, I have yet to find a place where Deva even exists in the Japanese language but I can say that "ten" can mean as many things as the number 10 to cultivating rice fields, but thats a whole different story in and of itself.
 * With the annoyingness of the above left out, I can safely say without a fraction of a doubt, that 神=God. Or Divinity. Or Lord. Or Goddess. Or Deity. Regardless, it still means God, so that part is correct.
 * With 征 meaning as many as Conquering, subjugate, and everything like that the combined 天征 does mean Heaven Conquering/Sky Conquering.--TheUltimate3 15:28, 9 November 2008 (UTC)
 * After doing a stupid amount of research and hunting, 神羅天征 is indeed the correct kanji found in the manga.

It's already been established that 神=God. 羅 can mean Thin Silk, Range, and Net. Completely dropping Think Silk out of the mix as it has almost zero relevance to the attack, that leaves Range and Net. 天 Directly translated means Heaven or Sky. Given the use of God, Heaven is most plausible. 征 means conquering or subjugate. Both of which are basically the same so they are really interchangeable.

Thus 神羅天征 can translate into God's Range Conquers Heaven, or God's Net Subjugates Heaven.--TheUltimate3 15:48, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Please allow me to share my take on this jutsu name.
 * First, means "god" or "kami". This was already established.
 * Second, means "heaven," "divine," or "Deva". This was also already established.
 * Third, means "to conquer" or "to subjugate". This was also already established.
 * Now, we get to the most difficult part. . This can means "silk" or "gauze" as was already established. However, this kanji has another meaning. It's a common abbreviation of the word . Mara is a demon from Buddhist mythology. He tried to tempt the Gautama Buddha with his daughters. Since then, his name has become synonymous for "an obstacle to Buddhist practise" (and as such for the male reproductive organ ^^).
 * So in my eyes, the name Shinra Tensei would mean something like "Divine Subjugation of Those Hindering God".
 * However, I must say that it's a difficult kanji to translate. There is a possibility that Kishimoto is planning on explaining it, however. Gaara's name also ends in 羅 and his name was explained quite clearly. --ShounenSuki 18:39, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh why does he keep doing these kind of things?!--TheUltimate3 22:56, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * That... doesn't sound good... Should I be apologising? --ShounenSuki 23:00, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * ..huh? I was tlaking about Kishimoto. Why does he make translating his work so difficult. Is it Japanese? Yes it is, until it has 4 different meanings. Then it depends ont he character. Or until I want it o be close to a different language as possible, and thus I'm going to use words from Bhuddist. That makes sense...T_T he makes my head hurt.--TheUltimate3 23:07, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Phew... I was afraid I did something wrong ^^
 * Anyway, Kishimoto doesn't decide on these names for foreigners. He wants them to sound good for Japanese people. To them, the 羅 kanji has a clear Buddhist connotation. There are dozens of Buddhists terms and names that use this kanji (mostly for its pronunciation). Since Pain has that whole Buddhism theme, it isn't really surprising his jutsu have Buddhist themes as well.
 * The average Japanese reader would look at the name of this jutsu and see a cool-sounding name vaguely meaning God-Buddhist Connection-Heaven-Subjugation. This probably isn't how Kishimoto thought of the name, but it's how his readers will see it.
 * Hell, for all we know he might actually have named this jutsu after the Shinra Company from FFVII. After all, Kishimoto loves video games.
 * I wonder if Japanese people have the same problems with the spells from Harry Potter... --ShounenSuki 23:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Why do we keep translating 天 as Deva? He used it once in "Deva realm," it doesn't mean every single use of it pertinent to Pain is going to be Deva. Also, are we sure that the Konoha-destroying Shinra Tensei is the same thing that Pain was using to draw Kakashi towards/away from him? 207.80.142.5
 * Where is 天 translated as Deva outside of the context of Pain's "Deva Realm"? It definitely isn't translated as such in Shinra Tensei, seeing that we haven't decided on a translation yet.
 * Why wouldn't the Konoha-destroying Shinra Tensei be the same as the one Pain used against Kakashi? They're both called Shinra Tensei and work the same. There is no reason to assume they are different. You might as well ask if the Kage Bunshin Naruto used during his fight with Sasuke at the Valley of the End were the same as the ones he used against Kimimaro. --ShounenSuki 17:21, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Name revised
The introduction of Banshō Ten'in gave me a new clue to the intended meaning behind the name Shinra Tensei. I thought I'd share my thoughts here.

There's a Japanese idiom that's heavily tied in with Buddhism:. It has a variant written as 神羅万象 (with the kanji for replaced with the kanji for ).

The first part of this idiom was used in. This would give it the meaning of something like "Heavenly Subjugation by the All-covering God".

The second part was used in. This would mean something like "Heavenly Pull of All Creation".

--ShounenSuki 01:10, 7 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Pretty clearly the root, but I think we can improve the wording. I'd suggest "Attraction" instead of "Pull" (it's the same kanji used in the description of "attraction forces and repulsion forces"). Maybe "All-covering God" to "Omnipresent God" or "Ubiquitous God". Or maybe something along the lines of "Heavenly Subjugation by God Above" and "Heavenly Attraction of Everything Beneath", a little bit less literal, but more clearly drawing a connection between the two halves of the yojijukugo. Or just "Heavenly Subjugation by God Above All" / "Heavenly Attraction of All Creation" -- more literal, still a link, but less directly. FF-Suzaku 05:21, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, there are always better ways to translate a name. I only used the wording above to keep as literal and as close to the most basic and neutral meaning of the kanji and idioms behind the name.
 * Anyway, the "pull" in Bashō Ten'in is indeed the same as kanji as used in . I think I'm against using "god above" and "everything beneath" though. I feel like that implies a monotheistic god. --ShounenSuki (talk 08:20, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Pain could be consider a monotheistic god. /shrug Just saying.--TheUltimate3 13:10, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
 * All-covering God would imply the same sort of omnipresence, though; above is also synonymous with "covering" and beneath is synonymous with "being covered by", though I admit it carries a slightly different vibe. FF-Suzaku 21:14, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Almighty Subjugation
So...where does this translation come from?--TheUltimate3 (talk) 02:19, 11 April 2009 (UTC)