User talk:Seelentau/Naruto Timeline

a thing
"Kushina dies because of extraction" thought it was because she got impaled by a **** big claw :D--Elveonora (talk) 14:57, January 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * She would've died anyway, so whatever :D Seelentau 愛議 14:59, January 16, 2014 (UTC)

How about a legend for easier navigation? I can't make sense out of those numbers :P--Elveonora (talk) 14:54, January 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Those're the dates in MM/DD/YY format, while the numbers in brackets are the age of the character at that point. Seelentau 愛議 15:04, January 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * I get it now, but this for example: "01/01/64–12/31/64" means 64 years before current events, or not? Well if that's so, should it no say -64? or at least 64BCE? You don't differentiate events from before zero from those after zero, unless I'm blind--Elveonora (talk) 15:25, January 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's the timespan, one year. So yes, it means 64 years before Naruto's birth year. Of course there can't be a negative year, but seeing as the years count down until year 0 and then count up again should explain enough, huh? But I can add "bNB" and "aNB", if you want. Seelentau 愛議 15:28, January 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, no, it's just for the sake of semantics :P Kinda like we have BCE and CE, I was also afraid the code wouldn't recognize two evenly named sections, but that doesn't seem to be the case.--Elveonora (talk) 15:39, January 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Done. Anything else about the layout? A wiki page probably isn't the best place to create this timeline, but I don't know if there are any "timeline-creation-programs" out there... :( Seelentau 愛議 15:40, January 20, 2014 (UTC)

I like it as is. Will you eventually add things like "at least a millennium ago, Sage of Six Paths was born" etc.? :) EDIT: http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/User:Seelentau/NewTimeline#01.2F01.2F44.E2.80.9312.2F31.2F44_bNB does this refer to Konoha as the first or to the fifth having been established? Because the others followed afterwards, so Konoha is a little older than that--Elveonora (talk) 16:16, January 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'll try to be more precise with the information I add. So no Sage for now. That date refers to the five countries, it comes from the second fanbook. Seelentau 愛議 18:14, January 20, 2014 (UTC)

So what's the latest explanation for Kakashi-Obito age thingy? ^_^ --Elveonora (talk) 13:45, January 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Before I changed it based on the anime info? I searched for anything that dated Obito's death to 5 bNb, but I couldn't find anything. So I took their Ninja IDs and calculated everything from there on. The anime info corrected it just a bit (2 years), but it still fits. Seelentau 愛議 15:57, January 25, 2014 (UTC)

"a young boy slaughters the participants of a Genin exam in Kirigakure" interesting that you omitted Zabuza's name. Also a question, are you re-reading the manga as well for this timeline or purely from memory?--Elveonora (talk) 13:57, January 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, because it couldn't have been Zabuza, even though the manga states that. So I left it out for the time being. I'm using the German timeline for most of the things, but I re-read everything I'm not sure about. Seelentau 愛議 15:57, January 25, 2014 (UTC)

They can't be the same age, they were in the same group, weren't they? We know that Obito "died" at 13, but since we aren't entirely sure how many years bNB that was, going backwards we can figure that out.


 * he became Chunin at 11 (supported by both databooks and manga scenes)
 * we know he failed the Chunin exams once, having been knocked out by Guy (supported by both databooks and manga scenes)
 * this means that Obito was 10 when Kakashi 6 because we are 100% sure they both participated together, unless Kakashi has a double, so easy math
 * therefore when Obito was 13, Kakashi must have been 9
 * Kakashi becoming a Chunin at 6 is not only confirmed by databooks but manga twice, so an unlikely retcon
 * He is 31 now (or rather 32 in a month let's say) 32 - 6 = 26, meaning it's been 26 years since then
 * So Kakashi was 7 when Obito became Chunin and 9 when Obito died
 * 26-3= 23... 23+13= 36 years old, Obito's current age

I really don't get how can you workaround that... only by taking the registration numbers into account and ignoring else you can.

For Zabuza, he might have had a twin or something, after all, Suigetsu can be easily mistaken for Mangetsu--Elveonora (talk) 17:09, January 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * I can't ignore the IDs, but you're right, I forgot about the Chūnin exam they participated in... f**k it, I was so sure about it this time >_< Gonne look into it tomorrow again, today real life takes priority. Seelentau 愛議 17:33, January 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Just to say... It's really a tremendous job to do such thing like that, senpai. Thanks a lot... I wonder about how the upcoming anime filler arc will deal with those timelines. (For example, when did Yamato join the ANBU or somthing like that) Elve-kun, good analysis by the way. I'm looking forward to see the full version of this timeline. — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 17:40, January 25, 2014 (UTC)

I'm depressed now... if we go by chapter 599, we have to ignore the IDs or vice versa. But I can't ignore any of those information... what do? Seelentau 愛議 17:54, January 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Trust me, so am I. But if I were you, I'd ignore the IDs since they haven't even been explained, not to mention it's much easier to make a mistake when it comes to a serial number than a whole bunch of chapters and databook adding to each other. Chapter 599 pretty much agrees with Databook details for Obito and Kakashi (save the IDs) but once again there's the Hayate and others error. I'd just ignore conflicting information, or try to find a workaround like with the Zabuza =/= insane student thing lol.--Elveonora (talk) 20:47, January 25, 2014 (UTC)

The problem is this, the ID's need not be explained as the name "Ninja Registration I.D." Is self explanatory = They got the I.D. when they became Ninja and they became Ninja when they Graduated the academy so yes the ID's are correct but stay in tune for any changes or retcons in databook 4. Also chapter 599 cannot be taken seriously here, as Anko and Hayate should not have been there at all. Not to mention Kakashi and Guy could not have fought in the Chunin exams as Gai was 7 upon becoming genin and at that time Kakashi was already a Chunin for an entire year. @Seelentau are you slowly adding information to the new timeline?? I'm eager to see Asuma filled out on it as he links to Kurenai and I think his info may further help with it ItachiWasAHero (talk) 04:36, January 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Aren't the Suna IDs erroneous? I wouldn't bet my testicle on them. Also obviously chapter 599 is canon, Guy beating Obito and them being peers has been referenced more times with the whole: "you don't remember faces anyway" and shi* It's not like Kishi is suddenly gonna pull: "OH NO, Guy didn't beat Obito but some random generic ninja with just as fine ass as he has!" Events actually shown to have happened > numbers--Elveonora (talk) 11:50, January 26, 2014 (UTC)

But there lies the problem, there is MORE evidence for against that than there is for it. Plus we were finally given a number for Gaiden Kakashi even if it is from the producer of studio pierrot, which was 13. Go look at Seel's timeline again, it all fits pretty good. You are also forgetting Kakashi was a prodigy who graduated in one year, Rin and Obito were NOT. Databooks and manga in the entirety have more info stacked than Chapter 599 and the few scenes shown after that. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 19:21, January 26, 2014 (UTC)

Well, it's Seel's timeline, not mine, so his problem to solve ;) just stating my opinion--Elveonora (talk) 20:23, January 26, 2014 (UTC)

Well I wish Kishimoto would come look at this wiki, after mastering the english language, and take over and put everything the way they should be, with our help of course. Because NO mangaka is perfect, but lots of small errors and retcons can be quite annoying and confusing ItachiWasAHero (talk) 23:19, January 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * I actually agree with IWAH this time. The databook information along with the Anime weigh more than chapter 599. We probably should put this into the related articles, too. Anime information is still kinda official. Seelentau 愛議 10:17, January 29, 2014 (UTC)

So let's assume chapter 599 is false as it can be. But Kakashi still became a Chunin at 6 tho, that's both databook and pre-chapter 599 manga fact. So if both he and Obito were 13 during Gaiden, that would mean it took Obito and Rin 3 years to catch up with Kakashi only so they could form Team Minato. That doesn't explain tho how could Kakashi become a Chunin without Rin and Obito, could have he joined another team for the time being? And what was he doing those 3 years and why would they pair a Chunin with Genin instead of keeping him with the original team that had helped him become a Chunin? See? It's still problematic as it can get--Elveonora (talk) 10:49, January 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know what he has done in the meantime or why they paired him with a Genin team and all that. But I don't need to know that for the timeline, hm? Seelentau 愛議 11:05, January 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, I guess Sakura proves that it may be possible to become a Chunin without being part of a 3-man Genin team and that perhaps such an individual may temporarily join another team to participate in the exams.

Funny thing tho, you take this into account for your timeline and assuming it's correct and Kishi messed up, in that case official articles will have it wrong still. I guess we will have to explain it somehow in trivia sections.--Elveonora (talk) 13:36, January 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * We have two possible timelines, none without faults. With the upcoming arc, however, we have more proof that the ID-timeline is correct and the chapter 599-timeline is wrong. The thing is, the canon anime states that the 599-timeline is correct (by including chapter 599), while the anime-only arc states that the ID-timeline is correct (by making Kakashi 13/14). Seelentau 愛議 14:17, January 29, 2014 (UTC)

I'm calling it, there are 2 Kakashis!!! 1 we know as a prodigy and the other one has a prosthetic eye and substitutes for the real Kakashi each time he comes late.--Elveonora (talk) 23:43, January 29, 2014 (UTC)

Well..
Seems Kakashi was appointed to Anbu at the age of 13 and not 14, since it was 10 months before Naruto's birth since Minato anounced to Kakashi she was now pregnant and made him an Anbu. We also find that Yamato was an Anbu when Kakashi was so Yamato as Kinoe was 9 years old. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 07:39, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

Ok so I did the math and what not, Nagato was born in September, Minato in January I believe, so it was 4 months after leaving Amegakure that Jiraiya became Minato's sensei, Minato was 3 years younger than the Ame Orhpans and Yahiko died at age 20 in the same year Minato became a Kage, meaning Minato became a Hokage around December 10th when he was 17, 1 month later January 25th he turned 18 and about 9 months later he died at 18, on October 10th. That makes him the youngest Hokage ever I believe. Gaara still has the title of youngest Kage ever I believe. But that means he was Team Minato's sensei at the age of 13 almost 14, and I def believe it as Itachi was 170cm tall, very mature, and already an Anbu Captain at the age of 13. So Minato was already a Jonin at 13 almost 14, which means he became a Chunin and then Jonin within him being 10-13yrs old. Jiraiya already stated he was so much of a prodigy and Ei stated nobody could beat him pretty much so I believe it 100% ItachiWasAHero (talk) 08:09, February 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * We don't know how long Kushina as been pregnant when Minato told Kakashi.
 * We don't know what year Jiraiya left Amegakure.
 * We don't know at what age Jiraiya began to train minato.
 * We don't know how much younger Minato was than the Ame orphans.
 * We don't know what age Yahiko was when he died.
 * I don't know if I forgot anything. Seelentau 愛議 09:43, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

"We don't know what age Yahiko was when he died" didn't you say yourself you have translated it? Currently his infobox says 20--Elveonora (talk) 15:13, February 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, that's wrong. The pierrot guy says shōnen Yahiko was about 20. Chōji says Yahiko is looking 25-30. Corpses don't age. What now? Seelentau 愛議 16:12, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

Well yeah I guess what I said here was a half speculation. But then again, they said Sai was naruto's age, he isn't he was a year older. I think by now we all know that there are errors and inconsistencies in this manga. We just have to go with the largest and most consistent amount of data. Yahiko was most likely 25 when he died anyways. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 16:25, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

Now I am confused on the whole shonen yahiko thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sh%C5%8Dnen

ijdk... its safe to say they manga makes less mistakes than the anime, that's for sure. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 16:28, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

If he said about 20 and 25-30 can't we just leave it at 20 or say something like Age: About 20 or we can say that he is 20-25 cause he's not 30 Munchvtec (talk) 16:34, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

To me that means he was 20 at some point while alive. It should be noted however that the Inuzuka-bastar* reject Lava guy appeared older during his death than when he had entered, meaning some years must have passed--Elveonora (talk) 16:36, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

lol you mean Kyusuke, so lets just say 20-30. Munchvtec (talk) 16:37, February 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * I meant Seinen, of course. Translated that wrong. Yahiko was about 20, Chōji says he's 25-30, manga > anime. Solved. Seelentau 愛議 16:53, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

Elveo said something about kyusuke but nevermind, I added 20-30 in his infobox. It should be kept till a databook is released. Munchvtec (talk) 16:55, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

I believe if you actually think about it then its all canon in its own way, the way you guys do things it might as well be two alternate dimensions. Munchvtec (talk) 16:56, February 7, 2014 (UTC) Of course years passed. Maybe Yahiko was 20-25 when they founded Akatsuki and 25-30 when he died? Seelentau 愛議 16:58, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

Yes but I still put 20-30 why not leave it/ Munchvtec (talk) 17:04, February 7, 2014 (UTC)

"Seinen (青年) means "young man", a term used in the manga market to describe titles intended for an 18-30 year-old demographic ." So studio pierrot wasn't really making crap up really. But but 25-30 still remains, the thing said 20's not 20 right? So 25-30 is still more correct. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 19:31, February 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Aye. What about the other "we don't know"s? Seelentau 愛議 10:54, February 8, 2014 (UTC)

Other "we don't know's"?? ItachiWasAHero (talk) 12:58, February 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * We don't know how long Kushina as been pregnant when Minato told Kakashi.
 * We don't know what year Jiraiya left Amegakure.
 * We don't know at what age Jiraiya began to train minato.
 * We don't know how much younger Minato was than the Ame orphans.
 * These. Seelentau 愛議 13:26, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

Jiraiya began to train minato when he was 10, minato became a genin at 10 and was assigned to a genin team with Jiraiya as the sensei, this was after the second world war and after he trained the ame orhpans. he was in amegakure for 3 years.. Minato was anywhere from the same age as them, to 3 years younger, because jiraiya immediately went home after he trained them and it was shown in anime he came back and became Minato's sensei who was 10yrs old. So like I said, Minato can be at most the same age as Nagato all the way to 3 years younger. Kushina's pregnancy lasted 10 months, we do know that. Naruto was born 0ctober 10th, Kakashi did not turn 14 until the 15th of September, the month before October, in the episode that it was after Obito and Rin died and the third war was over that Minato became a kage and told Kakashi about Kushina pregs and Obito("died" at 13 born February) and Rin are the same age as Kakashi as established. So the time frame of Minato telling them. So Obito was 13 and 7 months when he "died" and 14 and 8 months when he attacked Konoha, which was 10 months after December 10th.

Ok so that means at Kanabi bridge Obito(13yrs7months "dies") Kakashi is 13 at the least.

Obito is 14 and 8 months on the day Naruto is born, Kakashi at 14yrs 1month.

A Jinchuriki's pregnancy term is 10 months so Kushina got pregnant in early December, Obito is 13 and 10 months, Kakashi is 13 and 3 months. Kakashi is 13 still when Minato becomes Hokage. Kakashi was at most 13 and 11 months when Minato told him about Kushina being pregs, and at the least 13 and 3 months. GEEZUS, that was annoying to type, well that narrowed it down. Hope the top post didn't look like jibberish.. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 05:45, February 12, 2014 (UTC)


 * "this was after the second world war and after he trained the ame orhpans." - How do you know that?
 * We also don't know if Minato was Hokage when they conceived Naruto, right? Seelentau 愛議 10:19, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I added some of the stuff you mentioned, check it out ;) Seelentau 愛議 11:13, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

Nice, The timeline slowly gets more complete. On another subject, I was positive that it was Kabuto at Sasuke's location, but Tobirama and Karin don't know the chakra at all so I wonder who it really is ItachiWasAHero (talk) 22:19, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Anything else you guys wanna see in the timeline? I also want a source for "it was shown in anime he came back and became Minato's sensei who was 10yrs old.", please. Seelentau 愛議 22:28, February 13, 2014 (UTC)

The proof for him training Minato after Nagato is the fact that Nagato was the first person he thought could of been "The Savior of this World" and "Destined Child" that the toad spoke of, he later said the same thing/things to Minato, I am going to guess he said it after he was told that the Ame Orphans "died" which was only 1/3 true.. Either way Nagato was the first to be called the Savior of this World and or Destined Child, by Jiraiya after the toad told him about it. Think about it ItachiWasAHero (talk) 03:05, February 14, 2014 (UTC)


 * In addition to that, Jiraiya's red markings extended all the way down his face when he trained Minato's team (chapter 122), meaning it was definitely after leaving Amegakure.--BeyondRed (talk) 04:49, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

Good proof too man ^ Yeah Minato is 3 years younger than Nagato. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 07:06, February 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Alright, fixed that one. Seelentau 愛議 10:46, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

Additions to guide.
Ibiki, Genma, Ebisu, Raido, Aoba, Iruka. I think these are the next most relevant to add. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 07:15, February 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Done. Ignored chapter 599, too. Because you know, a one year old Hayate joining the academy is just wrong. Anything else? Seelentau 愛議 10:46, February 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * You never know what they add into baby food these days. Perhaps some growth hormones and shi* seems reasonable :P--Elveonora (talk) 16:05, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

Wow man, this timeline is looking pretty damn good. I have to give props on this again. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 19:15, February 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks man, couldn't have done this without you guys. I added almost anything I can think of. Sadly we don't know at what age Inoichi and the others from that generation became Genin/Chunin, we only have their IDs. When Nawaki lived and died can't be calculated, either. :/ Seelentau 愛議 11:45, February 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Now you mention it, weird. Nawaki's infobox lists him as a Genin, he died in a war didn't he? In that case they must have allowed Genin participation then.--Elveonora (talk) 13:53, February 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, anything else I could add? Or maybe, let's make a list with stuff we actually can't add right now because we don't know enough? Seelentau 愛議 17:59, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

Basically anybody who doesn't have any databook info, or mentioned age data in the manga either, we can't list for starters. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 09:52, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Well, for starters we have Seelentau 愛議 10:11, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Nawaki, whose ID and age we have, but not when he lived and died.
 * Inoichi, Shikaku, Chōza, Shibi, whose ID we have, but not their graduation ages. That also goes for a few other characters.

Yeah a piece of the puzzle is missing for a few characters such as those. Kushina was generally the same age as Minato, she was taken from uzushiogakure, was that before or after it was destroyed? because it was stated to be an immediate transition i believe, and during a war. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 09:24, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * That must have been before the village was destroyed. I'm thinking, did that happen before or after Nagato's family moved to Amegakure? Seelentau 愛議 16:34, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, regarding the graduation ages of Nawaki and the others, I might be on to something:
 * Fugaku (ID 004086) => Hiashi (ID 005159) => Hizashi (ID 005160) => Mikoto (ID 005348) => Nawaki (ID 005350) => Shibi (ID 005480) => Chōza (ID 005490) => Shikaku (ID 005491) => Inoichi (ID 005492)
 * Now, Fugaku obviously graduated some years earlier than the others. But the rest is really close together, I assume they all graduated in a time frame of two years. Is there any way we can use that? Seelentau 愛議 20:25, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * In theory we could, nice work. But we don't have any guaranty about what age they entered/left the Academy. The students in the same class/year may or may not vary greatly in age--Elveonora (talk) 20:55, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, we won't ever figure out the ages. How can we pinpoint the graduation times, though? Seelentau 愛議 21:12, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Just want to say congrats on the timeline I just read it and it's amazing, great job keep it up and if you need any info for it I have the three data books in English viz edition. Munchvtec (talk) 21:08, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * I own every Naruto chapter, databook and fanbook in Japanese, but thanks, though^^ Seelentau 愛議 21:12, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * No lies? 0_o like everything? Have you gotten that over the years or did you get them at once sometime?--Elveonora (talk) 21:27, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * No lies. I have the Japanese book of Hyō and Sha as actual physical copies and everything else as digital ones on my external HDD. Seelentau 愛議 21:51, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Apparently, Dan was somewhere stated to be "Tsunade's generation" meaning they were about the same age. Since he died as 27 years old, it happened let's say 27-28 years before current events, meaning he died 10 bNB. Wow, talk about going from one world war right into another--Elveonora (talk) 21:41, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Dan is in the timeline already^^ Seelentau 愛議 21:51, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Uzushiogakure only scattered in the process of being destroyed, so it had to be technically after, that Nagatos family moved. In regards those bunch, we could give them grad ages if we count every 27-36 numbers and have someone in that group with a given age. Without a given age for at least one, it will be very meticulous and possibly speculative work to give them Genin ages. We also have to remember it can take 1-6 years to graduate the academy.ItachiWasAHero (talk) 02:19, February 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * But Nagato lived in Ame way earlier than Kushina got brought to Konohagakure, hm?
 * We don't have any ages for any of those guys' graduations, unfortunately. :/ Seelentau 愛議 09:37, February 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * I would say it was about the same time.--Elveonora (talk) 13:11, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

I noticed you added Konohamaru as becoming a Genin before Part Two, but he was shown as not having a Shinobi headband yet when Naruto returned to the village in Manga though so how did you get this?? ItachiWasAHero (talk) 01:39, February 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Before Naruto left the village, he showed Konohamaru the Rasengan. At that time, Konohamaru already wore the headband. Also, his Ninja ID is pretty close to the ones of Naruto's generation. Seelentau 愛議 08:41, February 24, 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, but I thought that was the way the Anime changed it, and in the manga, naruto as wearing his new outfit showing that i was when he returned that he taught it to konohamaru?? ItachiWasAHero (talk) 09:46, February 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Nope, check chapter 428. :) Seelentau 愛議 10:02, February 24, 2014 (UTC)

Ohhh I can't believe I forgot that.. nice. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 21:26, February 24, 2014 (UTC)

but wait.. is anything changed in the tankobon version ItachiWasAHero (talk) 21:36, February 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Nope. Seelentau 愛議 14:38, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

related to your edit
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/User:Seelentau/NewTimeline?curid=119239&diff=854328&oldid=852779 what exactly is wrong with it? I can't even think, the episode screwed my mind so much that I don't even know where to begin. Also they seemingly contradicted themselves, previous episode claimed Yamato to be result of "cell injection" experiment, while this one shows him cloned in a tube as I said--Elveonora (talk) 13:00, February 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * According to what was established before, Yamato was kind of abducted as an infant and got his DNA overwritten with Hashirama's DNA, but Orochimaru assumed that Yamato died. The anime instead states that Yamato was brought to Orochimaru as a 10 years old and there's no way Orochimaru didn't know about Yamato surviving, since they both worked for Danzo and he would've told Orochimaru if one of the test subjects survived... I don't know what to make out of it, the filler starts to screw up... Seelentau 愛議 13:19, February 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * I noticed that too and wanted to bring this up. But perhaps they will have an "explanation" or rather an excuse for this, like in upcoming episodes, Yamato will seemingly die in front of Orochimaru or something like that. Also if Yamato indeed is Tenzo, then he wasn't an infant when abducted according to the anime. It's getting more and more obvious all of it is from their arse and shouldn't be considered canon, it was naive to think otherwise. Just because it's better written than pirates of the sea filler arc. doesn't mean it is higher up the canon ladder/more credible. And as such, I'm not sure if you should take the anime stuff into this timeline of yours, but well, it's yours, so up to you of course.

Also I'm not even sure what their logic is, what is the relation of Curse Marks to the clan's Smoke powers in relation to Wood Release? ._. Too bad, as it started out good. Expanding on your point, even worse thing is, that Orochimaru before leaving was still working on the Wood Release project, but what for, considering Danzo already had Yamato? As you said, the likelihood of Orochimaru not knowing of Yamato while both of them working for Danzo is slim. Not to mention why would Danzo have Orochimaru waste his time and resources on an already successful experiment?--Elveonora (talk) 13:39, February 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's all fishy, but the timeline doesn't cover the hows and whys, only the whens. So I won't be bothering with all the illogical stuff for now. Seelentau 愛議 13:58, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

Well... at least Tenzo's sister is pretty and well endowed for such a little girl ;D (pedobear alert)--Elveonora (talk) 14:31, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

Not worth of a new topic, but just wondering. Would it seem that Orochimaru started using snake-related techniques and summons only once he discovered the cave? Also I still don't truly get the circumstances around his defection. If I get it correctly, according to this filler at least, he left the village as a bait to severe any connections between him and Danzo, am I correct? Then he also defected with Kabuto... were there two defections, what's the timeframe for this?--Elveonora (talk) 22:56, February 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * He didn't show any snakeish attitude before he left the village, hm? He defected the village after he found Kabuto and left him in Konohagakure as a spy. Seelentau 愛議 12:06, March 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I think that's about right. Just thought it would be worth of mention that some previous fillers showed him using snakes as far back as 2nd SWW. And it indeed is illogical for him to have summoned snakes but not having been there or at least knowing where they come from. So that's likely an error on Pierrot's part. Can't blame them tho, the cave stuff came later on. For his defection, so I get it that after he allowed himself to get purposely caught by Hiruzen while experimenting on humans, becoming a missing-nin, but he still worked for the Root until the point he decided with Kabuto that they would leave, more or less betraying Danzo behind his back I guess?--Elveonora (talk) 13:49, March 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Was he ever seen using snakes prior to his defection from Konoha?
 * No, he found Kabuto, they left Root, Oro left Konoha and Kabuto stayed behind. Seelentau 愛議 13:54, March 3, 2014 (UTC)

So you say Oro first left Root and then Konoha? Well, save for the fact that in this filler, Kabuto is seemingly to appear in the next episode while Oro is leaving the village and still working for Danzo.--Elveonora (talk) 17:49, March 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * How could it be otherwise? Seelentau 愛議 18:14, March 3, 2014 (UTC)

He did use snakes and snake justu before leaving Konoha, how else did he teach anko hidden shadow snake hands and all the other snake jutsu and kinjutsu?? ItachiWasAHero (talk) 08:11, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, well... I'm wondering, when did Jūgo go to Orochimaru? Because he was 5 years old when Orochimaru left Konohagakure... can you think of a timeline for all that? Seelentau 愛議 09:24, March 5, 2014 (UTC)

It was definitely before the cursed seal was given to Anko. Because he created the cursed seal after learning Senjutsu from Ryuchi cave, after studying Jugo. Anko is 28 when Jugo is 18, therefor she was 15 when Jugo was 5, and that fits for her getting the cursed seal, so he must of taken Jugo and Kimimaro the year they were 5yrs old, studied Jugo and very soon after learned Senjutsu, made the Cursed Seals and applied 10 of them to people and Anko survived, then Oro met recruited Kabuto and left Konoha, then later on he applied them to the Sound 5. How does that sound? ItachiWasAHero (talk) 09:52, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * It sounds a bit too much for it to all happen in such a short timeframe, hm? Seelentau 愛議 09:56, March 5, 2014 (UTC)

Well we cannot forget, everything that happened in part 1 happened in one year, everything so far in Shippuden has been about 1.7yrs from Naruto returning to current time? It could be a 6-9 month period for those sequence of events. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 10:27, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hm, I think we need another manga-confirmed point of time in the upcoming episodes, otherwise, we can't make anything but vague statements. Seelentau 愛議 10:50, March 5, 2014 (UTC)

We could actually see Kimimaro recruiting Jugo in one of the fillers where it was revealed that they had a homosexual affair. Although not sure if any of them looked 5--Elveonora (talk) 11:33, March 5, 2014 (UTC)

Come on man.. that was not a homo affair... They were just happy as hell that they could be best friends. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 11:51, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, it pretty much resembled a softcore Yaoi. Kimimaro rubbing his member against Jugo's bottom while massaging his chest. And those faces spoke for themselves--Elveonora (talk) 12:16, March 5, 2014 (UTC)

I watched that episode that did not happen, only thing that happened was Kimimaro slid his top off to use his spinal cord, and then later was smiling and blushing at Jugo. Nothing else happened. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 21:19, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's suggestive enough as is.--Elveonora (talk) 22:48, March 5, 2014 (UTC)

Gaara
He became a Kage at 15, it was stated in the Herobook. Also It was shown that only Jonin can become Kage, hence Gaara was a Jonin too. So it should show he became a Chunin and Jonin at 14 and a Kage at 15. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 04:54, March 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Where was it shown that only Jounin can become Kage?--Elveonora (talk) 06:59, March 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * This. Also, where exactly was it stated that he was 15 when becoming Kage? Seelentau 愛議 10:23, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

For the Jonin part, when the feudal lord was ready to choose a Hokage, he asked what Jonin they wanted to Nominate and Shikaku chose Kakashi. For the Gaara becoming a Kage at 15 part, ShounenSuki showed me his Herobook translations awhile ago on another website he has translations on, just go read Gaara's Herobook section translation. I also believe it was stated in Databook 3 wasn't it?? Therefor common sense says Gaara was a Jonin when becoming a Kage and he became a Kage at age 15, meaning he was a Jonin before that. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 22:46, March 9, 2014 (UTC)

Chapter 668
So, we have Genma, Guy and Ebisu fighting against Kirinin. Guy and Ebisu are at least Genin, we don't see Genma's forehead protector. Guy asks his father why he's there even though he's just a Genin. From that we can conclude that those three are at least Chūnin, since if they were Genin themselves, Guy wouldn't wonder about his father appearing, right. Ebisu became Chūnin at the age of 17, at the earliest 03/08/1 after Naruto's birth. He doesn't look that 17-ish to me, but looks can be deceiving in a manga. From that I conclude the flashback in chapter 668 happens at the earliest 03/08/1 after Naruto's birth. Anything wrong with that? Seelentau 愛議 09:43, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Nothing wrong. It makes sense for there to have been other members then. For example Mangetsu was Suigetsu's age I believe and likely wasn't a leader for long. I'm surprised about Raiga tho ._.--Elveonora (talk) 11:03, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

What about the stuff regarding Kisame? Seelentau 愛議 20:33, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * What stuff?--Elveonora (talk) 00:25, March 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, I decided to remove it because it's not well calculated. Seelentau 愛議 09:24, March 13, 2014 (UTC)

Not necessarily. Just because Gai and maybe Genma were Chunin that does not mean Ebisu was, this is also strongly hinted to be sometime soon after Gai learned the 8 gates going by Gai's appearance. Chunin exams chapter showed them wearing the exact same stuff. So Gai was at least 11 here, meaning Ebisu was def not a Chunin. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 11:34, March 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * If Ebisu was still a Genin, why did Guy wonder about his father, who was a Genin himself, coming to help them even though they wer far away from Konoha? Seelentau 愛議 12:33, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

I thought about that myself, Gai and his team are wearing their Genin outfits, I won't even use any vest arguments because it is already shown that Jonin(Kurenai and 13yr old Kakashi for example) and Chunin's do not need to wear their vests and outfit, vests and outfit are optional. So in reality Gai's outfit is the only real argument I have for him being at the least 11yrs old here, because he was shown at 14 to wear the same outfit lee wore at 14, and only wearing his current outfit on missions at age 14. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 13:24, March 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wearing things is, though not always accepted, optional at any time. So yeah...^^ Seelentau 愛議 13:32, March 14, 2014 (UTC)

re: headache
Yeah, that would truly be helpful. I just wonder who could that someone be :-) Some stuff: was Kinoe abducted, Hashed and brainwashed after he graduated from the academy or before? And also, for the very last time (I wont bother with this ever again if so) did you truly check if Kabuto's graduation ID fits with his age at the time? In case you know, who has the closest ID to his? Thanks.--Elveonora (talk) 15:38, March 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Kinoe isn't Tenzō, you know that, right? And yes, Kabuto's timeline fits. I think he probably even graduated along with Itachi and Yūgao. Seelentau 愛議 16:42, March 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * If I was sure Tenzo ain't Kinoe, I wouldn't have asked. I'm not certain because it's left vague, Kinoe had a memory loss after all. For Kabuto, thanks (so I guess he is a genius after all) and btw; Yugao is quite a pretty woman ;) I pity her tho, poor Hayate. I still say BS on this one Kishi, screw Naruto's foolish and naive messiah speeches about love, peace, forgiveness and understanding of one another. What an asshole as he is, Madara is correct, the protagonists' ideals are just a make-believe. How many times did Suna backstab Konoha, twice, thrice at least? Like come on, now they act like best buddies. I would like Yugao avenge Hayate by beheading Baki (personally requested by her with Gaara willingly giving off that bastard) only then may Suna and Konoha be buddies for real, once all debts are settled. And yeah, yeah... I know Sakumo took lives of Sasori's parents and shi* but it was them I bet who started it first anyway. Ironic that Suna has the greatest potential it ever had under the leadership of once crazed mass murderer. Kishi knows his shit I guess--Elveonora (talk) 19:38, March 13, 2014 (UTC)

Kakashi timeline has to be revised
I think it isn't right to ignore the manga which Is definitely canon unless it gets changed in a re-release, because even later flashbacks and statements reaffirm chapter 599 and it makes much more sense. What I think has happened is that Kishi retconned his databook stuff, meaning they are no longer entirely correct and should be looked at as outdated.

Kakashi's ninja ID says that he had graduated and became a Chunin even before Obito and Rin were Genin. But that suggests an earlier different Team Minato with him and two other unknown members who were for some reason later replaced with Obito and Rin. Or similar scenario, Kakashi was under a different Jounin before and for some reason got relocated to Minato, joining Obito and Rin who were already there.

Looking at either option, it's just too much shit and trouble for them to be true, therefore Kishi likely realized this and changed stuff around. And for that reason I beg you, please, reconsider. It makes so much more sense for Team Minato to had been together since day 1. Therefore they must have graduated the academy together and participated all in the Chunin Exams in which Kakashi was promoted as shown in chapter 599 which has to be correct, not the databooks. Newer information should take precedence over the older.

Not the best comparison, but you are a Muslim while Kishi is a Christian. The New Testament retconned some stuff from the Old, while Muslims take the Old as true while dismiss the New.

I don't agree with that. What should be done is in my opinion to base Kakashi's timeline on information given in the manga and manga alone to be the most accurate.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the manga has stated his Chunin promotion age to have been 6 too, so that's correct no matter what. The manga has shown us all 3 of them together since they became Genin, so that must be true. The manga has stated that Obito was 13 when the boulder got him, so that must be true.

Therefore there are only 2 scenarios post chapter 599 canon:
 * Obito and Rin are the same age or very close to as Kakashi, but that means their Academy graduation and Chunin promotion dates given in the databooks have been changed, with Kakashi's ID also being different.
 * Obito and Rin are of different age from Kakashi, but that means Kakashi became a Jounin at 9.

So choose :P--Elveonora (talk) 13:47, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

They entered the academy together but Kakashi graduated first. Itachi graduated in one year to become a genin too and it was hinted he was never on one, having his father as his teacher/sensei, as shown in the flashback chapters, maybe Kakashi had Sakumo as his teacher/sensei and once Sakumo commited suicide he was added to Team Minato permanently. Maybe just like Sakura he was placed on a temporary team for the chunin exams the time that he himself passed it. Henceforth Nothing can be changed or revised until databook 4 comes out and makes it so. So just leave it alone Elve. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 14:31, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except the very manga shows Kakashi, Obito and Rin graduating and entering Kakashi's Chunin Exams in which he became a Chunin at 6 all together.

How can you two place databooks over manga is beyond me. It's quite simple:


 * 1) manga > databooks
 * 2) newer information > older information

Basically you two ignore canon that is still getting written with many chapters referencing events in others while you hold some static books released years ago higher up the ladder, really logical guys. If chapter 599 isn't canon, so aren't chapters 600-669 because what was shown in chapter 599 has been referenced many time since.

On the same merit, Zabuza obviously isn't 26 years old but was still a teenager. Manga > databooks. Manga gets corrected, databooks don't, they are again, putting emphasis static--Elveonora (talk) 15:04, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh man... I don't know how to handle this better than as it is right now. I give the current timeline more weight simply because the current anime supports it, too. I know it's illogical that Kakashi became Genin and Chunin that much earlier and could still be on a Genin team, but I don't know how to incorporate chapter 599 and the others in that timeline... I'm completely at a loss here. Seelentau 愛議 17:50, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Simple. Ignore the databooks with anime and listen to the manga before anything else--Elveonora (talk) 18:15, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * I seriously doubt that there's a whole anime-arc built on false information. Seelentau 愛議 18:16, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Right. Then Crystal Release must be canon, cause it was a whole arc. We have had adventures of sea as well, that definitely must be canon "sarcasm" ;) And Utakata too, cause it was a whole arc. Yet, the two didn't recognize each other in manga. Also the very fact that Orochimaru didn't know about Kakashi's Sharingan upon seeing him again after their last encounter, while having seen his Sharingan in this arc clearly contradicts that.--Elveonora (talk) 18:38, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Those are arcs you can't compare to the current one... but whatever, I'm too tired to discuss this now. The "not much time"-phase ain't over yet. :/ Seelentau 愛議 18:50, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * More like "not interested to bother myself with this right now, I'm right anyway" phase :/ just tell me "get lost asshole, I like it my way" and I will be gone before you know it ;) I'm not bossing you around pal, it's your timeline after all, I just wanted to help because it writes as follows: "feel free to make improvements on the talk page" you should have added then: "except if you disagree, in which case don't bother" :D--Elveonora (talk) 19:04, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Na, I appreciate your help and thoughs, but I'm not in a state of mind that allows me to handle this in a good way right now. This'll change in a week or so, just give me a little time^^ Seelentau 愛議 19:08, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Of course, I respect that, using only manga as the primary source of canon was just my suggestion. And I can see other reasons why you don't want to bother yourself with this. After all, it's a lot of work to redo it again, not to mention you are already more than happy with its current state anyway.--Elveonora (talk) 19:14, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

@Seelentau leave it the way it is and don't worry about it, until databook 4 comes out. @Elveonora, the same thing I said to Elve. No reason to change anything until we are told directly in Databook 4 about whatever possible changes. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 04:48, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Orochimaru Leaving Konoha
Episode 356 takes place when Naruto is four, yet the previous episode says it's been three years since Orochimaru left. At least as far as the anime is concerned, he left the year after Naruto's birth, when Kakashi was 15 or so. What is the source for him leaving three years after? Unfortunately, the one year time frame obviously doesn't fit well with Jūgo's backstory, and probably doesn't fit at all with Kabuto's, though it was already a stretch to say he was only ten when Orochimaru took him in, as his databook ages suggest--BeyondRed (talk) 15:52, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

The episodes do not each take place days after another, there have been timeskips in the filler. In Part I. it was said that it had been 10 years since Oro left the village and Naruto was 13 then, meaning when he was 3. And I agree that from the perspective of believability and logic is a stretch for Kabuto to have been just 10 when Oro took him in, but anko was 24 in Part I. and Naruto 13. So if Oro truly left when Naruto was 3, Anko was then 14 and Kabuto is 4 years younger circa than her, meaning he was 10 indeed 3 aNB--Elveonora (talk) 16:38, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

Anko was 24 when Naruto was 12, therefor she is 12yrs older than him. Databook 1 says so. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 14:24, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Anko was still 24 when Naruto turned 13. She is 11 years and some months older. But that's completely irrelevant, the point was to show BeyondRed that Kabuto according to the math indeed was 10 years old when Naruto was 3 (the time Oro left). Unfortunate, but true. I still find it stupid tho that a 5 years old boy would be sent into enemy territories all over the world without any sort of training whatsoever. But hey, fiction much--Elveonora (talk) 14:57, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

The timeline of Kabuto and Orochimaru is correct. Seelentau 愛議 17:53, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * I already know and admit you were right now, hence my explanation of it above ^_ unless you were responding to the OP. I just still think that from a logical perspective it's stupid. I mean, how likely is it for a 5 years old boy with no training to be sent into enemy territories as a spy? ^_ But then again, Kabuto was very intelligent for his age even then--Elveonora (talk) 18:14, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

I think Hanabi should be added Seel ItachiWasAHero (talk) 02:53, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

Latest edit, why? Doesn't manga take precedence over anime?--Elveonora (talk) 12:57, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Manga doesn't state when exactly they met. • Seelentau 愛議 12:59, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * So Itachi kicked Orochimaru outta the Akatsuki and got invited by Obito 2 years after? Seems legit.--Elveonora (talk) 13:01, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * According to the manga, no. According to the anime, yes. • Seelentau 愛議 13:12, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

BTW you should add "Sasuke awakens his Rinnegan" or something to the guide. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 21:52, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Huuuh, I dunno. I think I'll add the remaining war happenings when its over or so... • Seelentau 愛議 21:54, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, ok that sounds like the way to do it. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 23:04, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Hashirama's Death
I'm writing a founders fic and... well, yours is the best timeline we've found. However, I am having trouble believing the date of Hashirama's death. As you've mentioned in your note on Tsunade's birth and Hashirama's death, Hashi said he was a bad influence on her. It was also mentioned that he taught her how to gamble.

She had to have at least been a toddler when he died. I've bumped your timeline for the sake of our story and pushed Hashirama's death 4 years later than Tsunade's birth (her birth is firmly canon), figuring she'd have to be at least three to understand gambling (and assuming ninja babies are more intelligent than normal humans, since human three year olds would probably fail at gambling).

I just wanted to bring the topic up. It's your timeline, though.

BlackMajjicDuchess (talk) 23:59, May 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, the dates are very, very roughly estimated. He most likely died later, since I don't think that the first world war already waged when he gave out the beasts. • Seelentau 愛議 00:30, May 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hash died roughly 50 years back, we can say that at least I suppose.--Elveonora (talk) 11:40, May 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because of that one cover? • Seelentau 愛議 12:47, May 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Nah, even without that. Tsunade in Hash's flashback is very young. So he died circa 50 years back no matter how you look at it since Tsunade is 54-55--Elveonora (talk) 22:11, May 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Indeed. • Seelentau 愛議 08:34, May 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * The only confusing thing is his comparison of Sakura's strength to Tsunade's, I can't imagine a 4-5 years old girl smashing rocks and stuff--Elveonora (talk) 12:19, May 5, 2014 (UTC)

I'm having a problem regarding age.
The databook lists most all naruto age characters as 16, does that mean Shino, Hinata and Kiba for example were never shown as a 15yr old??? I'm having a hard time thinking on this because you can't put somebody as 15yrs on the wiki if they didn't show up until they were 16 and I'm not sure if Sasuke, Kurenai, Gai, and Asuma's teams even showed up until Gaara all the way to Naruto were already 16. What I want to know to make it more simple is how old were the Konoha 12 at their first appearances in Shippuden, I know Deidara, team Gaara, Sakura, Naruto, and Kakashi were younger than the Databook 3 ages. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 19:04, May 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * The age given in the databook is the one they were at the last chapter covered by the databook.
 * Those of Naruto's generation who were 15 when they first appeared in part 2 are Choji, Kiba, Sasuke, Shikamaru, Ino, Naruto and Hinata. Basically everyone who was shown in the timeframe of 01/01-04/18 and was born after 04/18 was a year younger than in the third databook. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:05, May 8, 2014 (UTC)

So right now my mind is fuzzy, but that means Tenten, Neji, Sai and Lee were 17 when they were first shown in Shippuden?? ItachiWasAHero (talk) 02:21, May 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, why? The Gaara arc happened around 01/19/16. Tenten, who's the oldest of those four, is born on 03/09/1. So she was 16 years and ~10 months old when she appeared in Shippuden. • Seelentau 愛 議 09:09, May 13, 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Seel, I noticed that Naruto's official growth colored image in chapter 597 shows he had at least 4 different growths in the series(145.3cm, 147.5cm, and 166cm are three of them) so just as Chiyo said in the war, he did grow taller, what I'm trying to figure is, did he grow TO 166cm around the war or did he start shippuden at 166cm and grew from there?? He's 17 now so if thats the case then maybe he is at least 170cm now? ItachiWasAHero (talk) 08:30, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * He started Shippuuden as 166cm--Elveonora (talk) 12:15, May 17, 2014 (UTC)

Hmm so after looking at the pic on 597 again I noticed he grew 4 times after his introduction in the series start at 145.3cm(12yrs), so that means Naruto grew twice after shippuden started and so did everyone else that wasn't already adults. Thanks Elve ItachiWasAHero (talk) 20:21, May 17, 2014 (UTC)

I know what month..
Team Minato went off to the mission, and Obito died. "April Showers bring May Flowers" It was May when Obito was told about the "Secret Kakashi gift mission" and they left the next day or so to break Kanabi Bridge. That needs to be added if it isn't already. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 20:48, July 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Uh, what? • Seelentau 愛 議 20:55, July 22, 2014 (UTC)

It was spring when Obito got the paper and and "died" in the bridge mission, there were flowers and tree petals were blooming so it was May the 5th month, not the 6th month. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 21:27, July 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not sure how is that even relevant though.--Elveonora (talk) 23:01, July 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * The flowers and snow and all that are just to show that time passed. It's no indicator of the exact month. • Seelentau 愛 議 05:06, July 23, 2014 (UTC)