User talk:Seelentau

ugh, Rikudou Senjutsu

 * I don't think Naruto is using Sage Mode at all
 * Rikudou Senjutsu is what Hagoromo gave to Naruto, the mode in question was called Sage Transformation by Madara--Elveonora (talk) 08:52, April 27, 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, but I sincerely believe that you are wrong this time. Rikudou Senjutsu is what Hagoromo gave to Naruto, it doesn't sound like a name of a transformation at all. It doesn't make sense for only Obito's version to be called Sage Transformation since it's the same thing--Elveonora (talk) 15:27, April 27, 2014 (UTC)

What's with the attitude? You can't just change something as radical and say "full stop end of discussion" Madara even said it's a power, not a transformation/mode.--Elveonora (talk) 15:43, April 27, 2014 (UTC)

Don't take this wrong, but knowing a language and having good reading comprehension/understanding context are two different things. You can't just put words into Madara's mouth and pretend that he meant what you think he meant. All he said was that Naruto got Rikudou Senjutsu and that he possesses the same power, no mention of cloak/form/mode/transformation/anything.--Elveonora (talk) 16:22, April 27, 2014 (UTC)

Rikudou Senjutsu is one of the things that power Naruto's form, but the form itself isn't called Rikudou Senjutsu. Sage Transformation sounds much more like a name of the form. Think logically, Hagoromo didn't give Madara anything, he got it by becoming the Ten-Tails' jinchuuriki, so you think Shinju gave Madara "Rikudou Senjutsu" ? ._. I interpret it as "Hagoromo's Senjutsu" with Rikudou simply being short for Rikudou Sennin.--Elveonora (talk) 09:03, April 28, 2014 (UTC)

So Madara got "Rikudou Senjutsu" from the Shinju? Also again, it's illogical for the staff (which is just the truth seeking balls technique in another shape) to be called a transformation while the actual transformation being called a technique :D--Elveonora (talk) 10:24, April 28, 2014 (UTC)

Also the Six Paths Sage Technique says things much close akin to my own interpretation of it, the infobox even has the eyes, not the cloak--Elveonora (talk) 10:34, April 28, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, but how is a cloak/form whatever from chakras of all 9 Tailed Beasts and Senjutsu chakra a "Rikudou Senjutsu"? The technique used with the form is Truth-Seeking Ball and you say Madara called Obito's staff which is just the ball technique variant a Sage Transformation. How don't you see it's illogical for a jinchuuriki form to be called a technique and for a technique it utilizes to be called a transformation? To me at least, it's obviously in reverse. The Truth Seeking Balls are more of a Rikudou Senjutsu if you ask me--Elveonora (talk) 10:40, April 28, 2014 (UTC)

Still illogical for a technique (TSB) to be called a transformation and for a transformation (the cloak) to be a technique. Also one way or another, the article made by the guy disagrees with your explanation, so it should either be modified or removed--Elveonora (talk) 10:48, April 28, 2014 (UTC)

I don't blame you, the whole thing is damn complex and confusing, but I'm sure one way or another, the information we currently present is wrong T_T damn Kishi, why u no explain properly?--Elveonora (talk) 10:58, April 28, 2014 (UTC)

Spiral Zetsu to Guruguru
I apologize for being late to the party, but which raw (chapter) was used to find its name? --Questionaredude (talk) 18:04, April 28, 2014 (UTC)

Six Paths Sage Technique
When and where exactly was the discussion for Naruto's new form to be a new page, if there was one? I'm not gonna edit anything either way, I'm just simply asking. WindStar7125 (talk) 23:01, April 28, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125

Hi! May I know why my contribution to Kakashi Hatake's Wiki page has been deleted?

Seifu10 (talk) 12:25, April 30, 2014 (UTC)Seifu10

Thanks :)
 * Because it was unnecessary overhyping. • Seelentau 愛議 12:36, April 30, 2014 (UTC)

Gattai Ōgi names
Hi senpai, today Namco Bandai Japan has released a page about the battle system in the upcoming game. Some of those combination ōgi are named in this page. Can you translate them in order to create their articles later on? — Shakhmoot  (Talk) 12:27, May 2, 2014 (UTC)

Yōton Request
Already I ended the icon. I hope that you like.

Sasukeuzumaki (Mi discusión) 12:44, May 6, 2014 (UTC)

Translate Stuff
Hi! If you have time, can you translate "Katabami Kinzan" to English? Thanks! :) ~IndxcvNovelist (talk 10:16, May 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you! :) ~IndxcvNovelist (talk 10:47, May 7, 2014 (UTC)

Jonin problem
If you have some time, could you take a look at this problem? The episode in question is from the original series, number 140, at ca. 16:45. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 18:21, May 10, 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 13:10, May 11, 2014 (UTC)

Chapter 64
In chapter 64, near the end, there's a scene with Hiruzen and Anko. Hiruzen asks Anko if the pain in her neck, caused by the cursed seal, is any better. She says "thank you" and say it is. Is there anything there, maybe in the raw, that implies he actually did something to seal the effects, or did she simply get better by being away from Orochimaru and resting? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:41, May 12, 2014 (UTC)

Discrepancy with the Shinju's eye
I want to know your opinion on this. WindStar7125 (talk) 00:02, May 18, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125

Check this out for me
Hey Seel. Mind stopping by Zetsu's talkpage and pitching in your two cents about the topic, Dojutsu in Zetsu? I'd really appreciate it. Thanks, -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 12:47, May 20, 2014 (UTC).

Kakashi Anbu Hen articles in Pierrot's blog webpage
Hi senpai. This week, the official blog of Studio Pierrot has released two articles about the latest Kakashi Anbu filler arc. It contains some useful information that reveals the timelines of those characters, you can modify your timeline based on them. — Shakhmoot  (Talk) 18:24, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

the shinju infinite tsukuyomi user?
I'd like to know.--Elveonora (talk) 15:18, May 22, 2014 (UTC)

Considering Kaguya presumably got her third eye as a result of the fruit, which hints that Kaguya's eye and the Shinju's are the same. Also Obito was about to cast Infinite Tsukuyomi with the Shinju's own eye.--Elveonora (talk) 14:25, May 24, 2014 (UTC)

Thank you a lot for your feedback. I suppose it comes down to the topic about what qualifies someone as a legit user. I would say that even being capable of X without having done X still means being a user of X.--Elveonora (talk) 14:51, May 24, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya's third eye wasn't named
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:124964 see my latest comment.--Elveonora (talk) 13:02, May 24, 2014 (UTC)

Too bad ^_ I just don't think we should label the third eye as Sharingan, since that wasn't stated--Elveonora (talk) 14:26, May 24, 2014 (UTC)

Furigana

 * Sorry I don't know anything about Japanese and stuff so I might sound completely senseless.
 * Would it be beneficial as well as possible (practically; not technically) to add those to translations in the form: 攻殻 機動隊(こうかく きどうたい)
 * You'd need to use chrome/IE to see above properly or this addon
 * More info is here--~Ultimate Supreme  16:06, May 21, 2014 (UTC)


 * I hate using title; it can't be accessed be touchscreen devices (iPad, mobiles, etc) neither by text-to-speech devices
 * Nor are they indexed by search engines.
 * What I was thinking was to integrate it with our so users could do  which will produce Sharingan ( 写 輪 眼; うつし  わ  め ; Literally meaning "Copy Wheel Eye", Meaning (Viz) "Mirror Wheel Eye")
 * Ignore the line-height, it'll mostly be the first line.
 * Adding half a dozen characters doesn't really increase the length of the article~Ultimate Supreme  14:40, May 22, 2014 (UTC)


 * Technicalities aside what I meant to ask is would it be possible to add furigana for atleast most of the translations we have and would it be worth the effort?--~Ultimate Supreme  09:59, May 27, 2014 (UTC)


 * But would that matter since it would only be read by those understanding Japanese? And I guess Furigana is simpler than that?--<span style="color:#0078ff; text-shadow: 0px 1px 0.4px #0054d3, -1px -1px 1px white, -2px -2px 6px #0093f4;">~Ultimate <span style="color:#f00; text-shadow: 0px 1px 0.4px #f33, 1px 0px 1px white, 2px 2px 6px #f33, -2px -2px 6px #f33;">Supreme  16:25, June 6, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya's speech
I know that she has said only like two sentences since her revival, but is there anything worth of note about her vocabulary?--Elveonora (talk) 16:56, June 6, 2014 (UTC)

Re:Raws
Couldn't say for sure, but Shueisha started getting a lot more aggressive in targeting copyright violators earlier this year, threatening legal action against people and individuals posting bootleg scans and spoilers before the magazines actually go on sale. Japanese bootleggers also tend to be extremely skiddish (perhaps because the Japanese legal system is so strict), so any sign of trouble and they head for the hills. FF-Suzaku (talk) 02:53, June 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * Is that so? I haven't really been following. All I know is that the cover-to-cover scans of Weekly Shonen Jump have generally been hitting the Japanese filesharing sites a few days after they hit newsstands, sometimes later. FF-Suzaku (talk) 09:31, June 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * I suppose, if someone were to have the presence of mind to download, extract, and redistribute them. FF-Suzaku (talk) 20:22, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

Stupid question, but why don't the scanners release the raws to the public?--Elveonora (talk) 21:21, June 21, 2014 (UTC)

I can't tell since I suck at japanese
http://blog.pierrot.jp/archives/7780

But is there anything relevant or helpful on this for the timeline or anything?? ItachiWasAHero (talk) 05:34, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Seel, I also noticed that Shisui's height is either wrong, or they just drew 11.5yr old Itachi too tall. Because Itachi was only 170cm when he left Konoha, and there it tries to paint him as 178cm at age 11.5... pretty sure he didn't shrink 8cm in 1.5 years. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 11:41, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

Warawa
Someone recently added to Kaguya's personality section this pronoun she uses to refer to herself. I can see it in the raw for chapter 680, but what the person added it signifies (nobility) and what tangorin tells me it signifies (humility) is different. Can you take a look? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:58, June 22, 2014 (UTC)

re: Enton
No idea at the moment, I still haven't recovered from that reverse harem, but I will let you know once I do ._. Also, what's your opinion on Kaguya and Ten-Tails merger?--Elveonora (talk) 10:44, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

Can you remind be a bit of the Enton topic? It was quite a while back. What I've noticed from the latest chapter though is that the Enton part was omitted and that he can create Kagatsuchi outside his field of view as well--Elveonora (talk) 11:28, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

So Kagatsuchi and Enton: Kagatsuchi are two different techniques... hmm. Makes sense, because in many instances where Enton: Kagatsuchi was used, he didn't use Amaterasu prior. Perhaps this should be taken to the talkpage. And if true, pretty much confirms that Amaterasu is Enton--Elveonora (talk) 11:44, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't hold my breath ^_ and will do.--Elveonora (talk) 11:50, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

Well, we tried :( Although you can always document it as intended over at German wiki I suppose--Elveonora (talk) 20:28, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

The raw is seemingly out--Elveonora (talk) 15:41, June 27, 2014 (UTC)

Re: So...
There was never peace. Just sysops who were fore more willing to throw their weight to crush opposition when it cropped up. Using only myself as an example, a few years back I would not have quietly entertained Elvenora's repeated beating of a dead dolphin horse over issues that have been solved time and time again. It would have been done and done once, and that would have been the end until something new actually came about to change things. But that is of course just an old man getting caught up in nostalgia.

Nobody here is untrusting of you or your desire to help. However, you may consider the explosions that (more of often than not follow Elvenora, not you) follow you to be what happens after several odd years of blindly following ShounenSuki's words because he was the only one who could translate. Essentially it's occupational hazards. More times than not, what ShounenSuki had stated went down because he was the only one who was sure what was actually said. And, I know I am terribly guilty of this, I was very willing to appease him, because he was the only one who could translate anything and having him gone left us to the mercy of scanlations and Viz. Hell I walk a very, very thin line as it is in my opposition to any discussion you pick a side on because of that reason. It's also part of the reason, I believe, that why Sysops tend to do far far less now than they used to.

As such, typically when you make a translation, it goes. No ifs, ands or buts. For a recent example, Kaguya's Rinnegan. And this is as per ShounenSuki. However, other things, which doesn't involve translations, such as the nature of Blaze Release, and instead can go by everything from interpretation of what we were already told, what we believe based on what know, and just wild mass guessing, that is where things get skewed. Where we would have originally just bowed to ShounenSuki because that's what we did, we know "fight" back so to speak. And even then, you aren't necessarily a "hot button", unlike Elvennora or Ten Tailed Fox. Your position as Main Translator(tm) put's you in high prestige, make no mistake of that. But after coming off of ShounenSuki, it does not make you free of opposition, not anymore.

I agree, we need a new calm. But to be a calm one has to be completely and utterly neutral in all things, and only look at things as black and white from the manga. Never getting into any discussion that has to be interpreted or looked at from 2 or more different angles. Must always be "The manga said this" and that be the end. That is something I don't expect, or want from you because that makes you, for all extensive purposes, a useless editor. Actually being interested in the topic is a good thing, and being able to passionately fight over something is something we could have used years ago if any of us had the balls to actually do something.


 * And this was a very long write.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 22:29, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

681 Raws
I know the raws just came out and I might be rushing you, but what do they say about Kaguya and the Ten-Tails?

Case 1: MangaStream: Black Zetsus (plural, two entities) says when Kaguya looks at Naruto and Sasuke, she is reminded of "Us," her two sons, implying that these two Black Zetsus were created to remind her of Hagoromo and Hamura.

MangaPanda: Black Zetsu (singular, one entity) treats Hagoromo and Hamura as different people.

Case 2: According to the raw, the Ten-Tails is the Shinju and Kaguya, correct? Both Panda and Stream agree on that, but Elveonora has confused me by say Kaguya is the Ten-Tails, therefore is not a jinchuuriki, but is a tailed beast herself (whatever Elve said, I'm paraphrasing him)

Case 3: MangaStream: Black Zetsu claims to have hid Madara's body to study the Sharingan.

MangaPanda: But Black Zetsu says Tobirama was studying Madara's body (which seems more plausible than Stream, but just to be sure)

Case 4: MangaStream: Hashirama's flesh was cultivated with the Demonic Statue and prolonged its survival and The White Zetsus were just there and Black Zetsu escaped.

MangaPanda: He (who?) cultivated Madara's meat with the Statue and tried to live longer and Black Zetsu claims to have taken out the White Zetsu.

BTW On my talk page, can you answer these cases like, for example "1) Panda ... 2)Stream ... 3) Neither, the Raw said this ..." and so on?

Also, between Panda and Stream, which should I trust more in the future? Panda makes some ridiculous mistakes, but Stream has its inconsistencies as well.

ShounenSuki
I saw that long response TU3 posted on your talk page. I went to his talk page and saw the conversation. Why exactly did ShounenSuki leave Narutopedia? I came post-ShounenSuki, so I just want to know.

I know this is a lot, but thanx in advance! WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 02:33, July 2, 2014 (UTC)

According to Shakhmoot, the raws are out. Ask him. WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 02:33, July 2, 2014 (UTC)

Gattai Ougi again
Could you get the name for Madara and Obito's ultimate from the new trailer? It's here. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:42, July 2, 2014 (UTC)

Chapter 684
Senpai, I found the other techniques' kanji which appeared in this chapter from a spoiler. — Shakhmoot  (Talk) 11:00, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) Naruto's jutsu using Gobi's chakra called 怪力無双
 * 2) Naruto's clone jutsu called うずまきナルト一帯連弾
 * 3) Kaguya's kekkei genkai jutsu called 共殺の灰骨
 * 4) The chapter's title is 殺しておくべきだ
 * If Gobi's technique really is a technique is something I can't say from just that.
 * The clone technique really means Naruto Uzumaki Region Combo.
 * The KG was obvious, I already added it. ^_^
 * The chapter's title is We Should Kill Him First or so. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:09, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * unparalleled superhuman strength? sounds like a technique to me--Elveonora (talk) 11:13, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not if it's just part of what Gobi said to Naruto, the way mangastream depicts it. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:16, July 9, 2014 (UTC)

Probability
Is there any for Mei's "Lava" and other users' Lava being two different advanced natures? I mean, does Mei's actually translate as Lava Release and was it anywhere stated that: "oh yeah, her KKG totally is the same as of rubber guy and the jinchuuriki dwarf's and Tsuchikage dwarf granddaughter's"--Elveonora (talk) 12:19, July 9, 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm just over-thinking things, because Mei said that she can use Water, Fire and Earth. But Water and Earth is Wood, while Water and Fire is assumed to be Boil. There's no room for a different "Lava" combination :( Unless hers is all 3 natures, but that would be Kekkei Tōta :P So I guess nothing then. But if Kokuō has Boil Release, what does Saiken have? That's why I thought the slug might have "Lava" Release, but different from Son Goku's. There being differences between Mei's "Lava" and of the others' seemed like evidence to me at first.--Elveonora (talk) 12:54, July 9, 2014 (UTC)

You sure? If that's the case, false alarm then :P--Elveonora (talk) 12:59, July 9, 2014 (UTC)

TSB natures
Considering that Naruto simply took his TSB and thew it as TBB and it was Wind Release, that in my opinion is enough evidence that TSB aren't 4 natures and Hiruzen was talking about Obito's usage specifically. Naruto's TSB is just Wind Release, what do you think?--Elveonora (talk) 12:12, July 14, 2014 (UTC)

I just thought that if TSB truly were "at least 4 natures" in the least all the time, then Naruto's TBB would have been whatever release, not just wind :) And yeah, I don't like YYR business either, makes me want to vomit.--Elveonora (talk) 13:25, July 14, 2014 (UTC)

Re: Volume 70 Info?
Yeah, you're right senpai. But the most thing that we don't know about this volume is its title. And for adding techniques and characters, we just add the volume number into the included chapters articles and that should be enough. Hopefully we'll know the title on this Saturday. — Shakhmoot  (Talk) 13:59, July 17, 2014 (UTC)

Mind checking this out?
http://blog.pierrot.jp/archives/7936

Does it give any info, like age, timeline, connection, story stuff?? Hopefully we can get something from this. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 23:09, July 17, 2014 (UTC)

That link above I thought I put it there the first time... guess I didn't oops ItachiWasAHero (talk) 19:48, July 18, 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Seel. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 18:46, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

Re: moovee
Thanks senpai, so the counter will stop on the next Monday at GMT timeline. That also confirms that the huge project which will be announced in the next chapter relates to the movie. — Shakhmoot  (Talk) 09:29, July 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the same time when the issue #35 will be released in Japan featuring Naruto as the leading manga in that issue. — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 13:38, July 18, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya riku senjutsu
She flies, or not? Also since she is chakra originate, isn't it fair to assume that powers of her sons are her powers as well?--Elveonora (talk) 09:44, July 18, 2014 (UTC)

Well, both Naruto and Sasuke got Hagoromo's chakra, one was stated to have gotten Rinnegan the other Six Paths Senjutsu and only the latter floats, so.--Elveonora (talk) 10:16, July 18, 2014 (UTC)

How else would have Naruto gotten Six Paths Senjutsu? Also Sasuke said he's got Rikudou's power too.--Elveonora (talk) 10:35, July 18, 2014 (UTC)

Then how did Sasuke get Rinnegan? I'm not sure just some Yin tattoo gave him that--Elveonora (talk) 11:28, July 18, 2014 (UTC)

Nah. We've been told that Ashura + Indra chakra = Rinnegan. Indra's chakra is already Yinish or something, so Yin+Yin = Rinnegan doesn't make sense to me--Elveonora (talk) 11:48, July 18, 2014 (UTC)

So Sasuke doesn't have the "Ashura part" of Hagoromo's chakra in your opinion?--Elveonora (talk) 12:52, July 18, 2014 (UTC)

Help
Could I get your help with this question?: Basis of all Ninjutsu? Skitts (talk) 04:37, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

Gantta
This Gantta guy keeps reverting edits on the Kamui page. Can you please tell him that on this wiki, we do things democratically and don't define things to suit any one person's needs? I don't wanna get into an edit war with this guy; he's a new editor and is already becoming annoying. WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 16:11, July 19, 2014 (UTC)

The Last movie scans
Senpai, how are you doing? Can you translate what's written in these two scans please especially that bottom-left corner regarding of 2015 stuff? Thanks so much... — Shakhmoot  (Talk) 08:08, July 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you so much and no problem at all. Seems you were busy at that time :) — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 09:03, July 23, 2014 (UTC)

Hagoromo and chakras
Do you get what was Hagoromo trying to say about Kurama's chakra?--Elveonora (talk) 15:33, July 23, 2014 (UTC)

Revolt of the demon world
So let's say your theory about more spiritual/mental/psychical whatever energy being Yin Release and more physical being Yang Release is correct.

Genjutsu is Yin Release. This technique uses more spiritual energy, so it is presumably Yin Release, but it's labeled Ninjutsu. Does that mean Yin Release can be both genjutsu and ninjutsu?--Elveonora (talk) 13:20, July 24, 2014 (UTC)

Quick Question
Hello, Seelentau-san~! :) I know you're busy, so I'm sorry to bother you, but I have a a question to ask you. This is a bit (actually, super embarrassing)) embarrassing to ask, considering I've been editing for years now, but this something I want to fully understand. I know Japanese is a very tricky language (even more so after taking a class in my last semester for college), which is why translations will always differ depending on who translates it. That being said, I want to confirm something: When romanizating a name from Japanese to English, in which case, let's say the name Kōjaku, for example, the spelling "Koujaku" would the closet literal translation into English, correct? And "Kōjaku" is the spelling that is closet to its Japanese name? I think that's is known as transliteration? There are a lot of characters in Naruto that has the accent marks in there, and the wiki chooses to use it. I always had a inkling of why, but never quite scratch the surface of the reason behind it since translations are bit confusing. If it's all right with you, may I ask you to explain in details on the concept of this?-- Ninja Sheik  21:12, July 25, 2014 (UTC)

Seelentau-san, thank you very much for replying to me. :) Yes, I finished my Japanese lesson for college. Waa, it was a harder than I thought. T _ T My college won't even be offering the next course level anymore, though, so I'm going to have learn Japanese through anime again. But I feel like I understand the Japanese language a bit better now, instead of being self-taught. :D Seelntau-san's amazing for being a translator! The three alphabets are really confusing, and kanji is so difficult to memorize. I can't believe Japan teaches all three. It's really hard! But I'm pretty happy now I can tell the differences between hiragana, katakana, and kanji now.

So, it depends on the system? I do know that using the names with or without the macrons isn't incorrect, so it really comes down to personal preference when people are using them. With official translations, they don't use macrons at all, so they either get rid of them or use ou, oo and uu. Hmm... So, using the name "Koujaku" again as the example, would "Koujaku" or "Kōjaku" be closer to the English language? It'd be Koujaku, right? I've noticed sometimes in anime that the characters' names will be spelled out sometimes in an episodes in its raw version. I'm currently watching an anime that does that a lot ("Koujaku" is actual the name of one of the main characters in there), so I thought it was a bit strange. I know another anime that spells two characters names as "Kou" (Kō) and "Shouta" (Shōta) in its raw version on items. It's also the spelling the official subtitles use. Hmm... Okay, I think I understand it better now! :D Thank you very much for your time.-- Ninja Sheik  23:32, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your insight, Seel-san~! Waa, Japanese is so tricky~! T _ T But I understand it now perfectly! Well, it's not like the spellings aren't incorrect. Whether you spelled a name with or without its macrons, it's still the same and really just comes down to which system the person prefers. Still, like you said, a lot of fans don't seem to understand that, and it's just a huge headache to break it down for them. ^_^; Well, thank you again! Nighty-night~! :D-- Ninja Sheik  03:59, July 28, 2014 (UTC)

Wa~! So tricky! T _ T But I understand what you mean. I really do prefer using the macrons, though. I used them in my fanfics, even. Thank you very much, Seel-san~! :D It's not something my Japanese class covered during the semester. I was hoping they would, but really, we worked on pronunciation more than we did with reading the characters. We covered that for, like, two weeks and that's it. Well, thank you again for your insight! Bye~! :)-- Ninja Sheik  18:51, July 28, 2014 (UTC)

Explosion Release
Do not the kanji of any of the known techniques give a hint about which natures may be included?--Elveonora (talk) 18:33, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

kaguya chakra question
It's been stated numerous times that all chakra was originally one and that it belonged to her/Ten-Tails/Shinju whatever, right? The issue is if the chakra that Hagoromo spread to everyone actually lowered her chakra and now she has just taken it back, or if she is taking more chakra than she had to begin with because she is greedy?--Elveonora (talk) 18:19, July 28, 2014 (UTC)

But the chakra all living things have is as much hers as is the chakra of Tailed Beasts, isn't it? Technically the chakra that exists now in living beings is the same one as Hagoromo gifted millennia ago, since children inherit chakra from their parents. So can she have more chakra than in her prime or does sucking everyone out just restore her to the way she was at the beginning?--Elveonora (talk) 18:35, July 28, 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, I see. Well, I disagree but I respect your opinion, so I'm gonna drop the topic for the time being since it boils down to matter of opinion I guess. I just don't think she feels falsely entitled to something that doesn't belong her, but rather she just wants to get back something that does belong to her.--Elveonora (talk) 18:59, July 28, 2014 (UTC)

Since everyone's chakra was Hagoromo's and Hagoromo's was hers, then everyone's chakra belongs to her by extension, especially if the chakra that Hagoromo spread was taken directly from Ten-Tails rather than his own he was born with.--Elveonora (talk) 19:41, July 28, 2014 (UTC)

I'm back
With another Pierrot post... this one looks like it may have good info on it.

http://blog.pierrot.jp/archives/7955

ItachiWasAHero (talk) 20:40, July 29, 2014 (UTC)

Hmm, so it doesn't give any ages or hint to any of the ages of the characters in the settei sheets?? and thanks man. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 20:08, July 30, 2014 (UTC)

chapter 674
Can you please clarify what does the text above Madara's head says on first page? Thanks--Elveonora (talk) 22:51, July 30, 2014 (UTC)

The panel he does the hand seal to cast the lightning--Elveonora (talk) 10:37, July 31, 2014 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, because the scanlations mention the lightning being black so I was wondering if the text indeed says the lightning to be black.--Elveonora (talk) 10:50, July 31, 2014 (UTC)

Greatly appreciated. So not exactly black, but of darker color I suppose? You might have figured out why I'm interested in this by now. Since Madara's Yin Raiton was "dusky" so I suppose is Sasuke's Yin-powered Chidori of the same color.--Elveonora (talk) 11:53, July 31, 2014 (UTC)

Re: ...?
Because it saves effort and time. By the way, the three dots are considered as an one character, to make sure. Type three dots in the Word and they'll change automatically to be one set. Also, we have used this one dots set in this wiki for a long while ago (… = ...) — Shakhmoot  (Talk) 12:35, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

Regarding Rabbit Monster
As I'm certain you don't have a RAW, this is more or less me asking a question and waiting patiently for whatever answer comes later. Basically what did Black Zetsu say about that the rabbit monster? Like I said, I doubt you can answer now, but this saves me the trouble of waiting till later.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 16:07, August 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * Cool beans. So Rabbit Monster from Beyond the Mommy is some sort of Ten-Tails outta control thing that Kaguya has no control over?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 10:53, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

2 things

 * Has Tailed Beast Ball ever been used from a different body part than the mouth?
 * Your expertise is welcome in the wind-Kurama topic--Elveonora (talk) 19:34, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

Thought so, thanks and too bad about Wind-Kurama, thought you might have been persuaded since it's happened twice now. And what exactly are you trying to figure about fluids and gases? Sound kinda naughty if you ask me--Elveonora (talk) 19:47, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

Of course they do. If it were on me, I would have long listed Saiken as Boil Release user. Considering people went ahead and listed Gaara as Magnet user without adequate evidence, I don't see why should they oppose listing Saiken as Boil user.--Elveonora (talk) 20:06, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah and Lava creates actual lava, rubber, quicklime and syrup of sorts. In other words, the substance produced depends on the Water component. By increasing the density, it becomes slime, but reducing it, it becomes mist. And I think Utakata's bubbles are simply water. After all, he uses bubble-blower to produce them, so they do not directly come from Saiken, they are more like a homage to it. But this may help if anything http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap_bubble --Elveonora (talk) 20:25, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

I don't think Utakata's bubbles are directly from Saiken as I said. Because they are Water Release. If Saiken's acid were Boil Release, then so would be Utakata's bubbles. If Saiken's acid weren't any nature transformation, then so wouldn't be Utakata's bubbles, but they are Water.--Elveonora (talk) 20:49, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

Mei should in theory be able to produce identical substances to Saiken, same goes for Saiken producing mist. The only differences between them are states of the water.--Elveonora (talk) 21:14, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

Why do you think Saiken's acid isn't Boil Release? How else would it change the pH of its substances if not with temperature?--Elveonora (talk) 21:43, August 8, 2014 (UTC)

Do you remember or can you find
Any instance of Blaze Release clashing against or reacting to Lightning Release? It would help greatly.--Elveonora (talk) 12:16, August 11, 2014 (UTC)

Verification on usage of Senjutsu Chakra
Okay, Tau (not Seel, right?), I have many things to ask you regarding this topic. Natural energy is an element of senjutsu chakra, correct? So senjutsu and natural energy are two different, though related, things right? So in the recent Shinobi World War, did Juugo contribute natural energy or senjutsu chakra to Sasuke's Susanoo? And also, only those who have used Sage Transformation can use senjutsu chakra, correct? Meaning Sage Mode, usage Orochimaru's Juinjutsu, and the Six Paths Sage Technique are all different types of the umbrella term "Sage Transformation," correct (which would explain Madara's ability to use techniques that start with "Sage Art," because of the natural energy of the Ten-Tails)? And only those who have trained with senjutsu chakra (users of Sage Mode) are regarded as Sages, correct (like Naruto, Hashirama, Kabuto, and unlike Juugo, Madara, Obito, Sasuke, etc)? Sorry for bombarding you with questions but I really need clarification on this. Thanks! WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 18:34, August 16, 2014 (UTC)

Confused
Elveo (here) thinks Kaguya is a user of the SPST. Is that true? WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 21:04, August 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry for butting in, but why do you ask specific people on their user talkpages rather than articles' talkpages? I've given my reasoning in the edit summary. Unless you can dispute it, it's true--Elveonora (talk) 21:09, August 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * She is no user if she doesn't have the tomoe and the Rinnegan on her back. That's the sign of the SPST. Also, since Naruto became a user of it without being a Jinchuriki of the TT, it's obviously not the TT that grants this technique. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:13, August 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then why Madara and Obito got it when they became jinchs? Obito at least didn't talk with Hagoromo, not being an incarnate and all--Elveonora (talk) 21:15, August 17, 2014 (UTC)

Thank you @Tau. But still @Elveo... Tau has a point. That's what I was thinking, she doesn't have the markings of the SPST. WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 21:17, August 17, 2014 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong: Kaguya's back has been obscured by her hair all along, so how can you say it's not there? Also she sucked Naruto's chakra and didn't turn into a toad nor a statue, now refute these two :P--Elveonora (talk) 21:18, August 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because they got part of all TB's chakras. It is more than obvious that there are missing information here. So for facts sake, please don't add anything unconfirmed. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:21, August 17, 2014 (UTC)

You didn't refute my points.--Elveonora (talk) 21:26, August 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's simple, we need to search for something they have in common. Naruto never had the full TT, only the tailed beasts. It simply can't be because of the TT. It's not possible. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:58, August 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm thinking we should take this to the talkpage (that's very rich coming from me, I know). WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 22:01, August 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to discuss this topic wiki-relevantly (is that even a word?). The whole [what exactly are Naruto's and Sasuke's powers, what is Sage Transformation, what is Six Paths Chakra]-topic can not be discussed properly because we do not have enough information on it. Anyone who says that something related to that topic can be said for sure, is lying. Yes, even me. • Seelentau 愛 議 22:06, August 17, 2014 (UTC)

Kakashi's Eyes
Guys like @Reliops and @Thdyingbreed keep bringing up this link to the Viz translation of Naruto #688. They want to prove that Kakashi's eyes are temporary. I know Obito said "it has a fixed time limit," but "it" could be the eyes or the Susanoo. Obito, in the same page that supposedly proves the eyes are temporary, also said "Plus, it's gonna keep bothering me that this eye I gave you to celebrate your promotion came back to me." Obito doesn't want Kakashi to die soon. He gives Kakashi his eyes (for Kakashi to possibly carry Obito's dream of being Hokage) in the same context of Kakashi receiving the left eye due to being promoted to jonin. So if Obito doesn't intend for Kakashi to lose his eyes (that's a good assumption, right? Given what Obito said), why would he make them temporary? What makes more sense is that the Susanoo has the "fixed time limit" because eventually Kakashi will run out of chakra. My question is, What do the raws say? What did Obito say about being bothered by receiving the gift back in the uppermost right panel of the page I linked in the raw? And what did the raw say about the "fixed time limit" in the bottom right panel? And what do you think about the Susanoo being temporary rather than the eyes (since Obito doesn't want to get them back)? Another bombarding of questions, but thanks in advance! WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 23:16, August 18, 2014 (UTC)

Tailed Beast Song
Can you confirm if this change to the poem is correct? Thanks. --SuperSajuuk Talk Page 22:37, August 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks! :) --SuperSajuuk Talk Page 09:36, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

好き
Schnauze voll von Englisch momentan! Ich wollt' die Diskussion hier fortführen, wenn dir das recht ist. :)

Was du über "好き" und "大好き" gesagt hast stimmt zwar, hat aber im Alltagsgebrauch eine etwas andere Konnotation. "Suki" wird allumfassend verwendet, wenn man etwas gut findet. Dabei sind die Grenzen fließend zwischen "mögen" und "lieben", das muss man anhand der entsprechenden Situation erkennen. Wenn man allerdings "daisuki" verwendet, dann gibt man schon an, dass man etwas so sehr mag, dass es "fast schon Liebe ist", und daher hat sich das dann mit der Zeit im Sprachgebrauch gefestigt....wird aber hin und wieder auch überspitzt benutzt und kann daher auch als Parodie dienen. "Aishiteiru" zuletzt bedeutet ganz klar "lieben", aber, und das ist der Knackpunkt, in 95% der Fälle im romantischen Sinne. Man kann es damit vergleichen, dass man "ich liebe es" anders verwendet als "ich liebe dich". Im Endeffekt wird die Sache dadurch kompliziert, da der Gebrauch dieser Begriffe kontext-abhängig ist und Japanisch sowieso sehr von der japanischen Mentalität beeinflusst wird, was eine direkte Übersetzung sehr schwierig macht. Das war ja überhaupt der Grund, warum ich das Thema angesprochen hab, da es beides heißen kann, aber zwischen "like" und "love" ein himmelweiter Unterschied liegt.

Da ich hier ja keine links verschicken darf: Google einfach mal "suki daisuki" und geh auf die Foren-Diskussion "Suki, Daisuki, Aishiteru: Like or Love?". Der Nutzer "Mugi" hat das ganz gut zusammengefasst, finde ich. Tut mir leid wegen des langen Textes! :D Norleon (talk) 13:28, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ja, ich meine, wir haben uns vor Ewigkeiten auch mal auf Deutsch unterhalten....weiß aber nicht mehr, warum. :D
 * Ich vermute, dass er tatsächlich "suki" verwendet, da die ganze Szene eine Anspielung auf Kakashis erste Begegnung mit Team 7 ist, wo er ja "kirai" verwendete und nicht "daikirai", was ja das Gegenstück zu "Daisuki" wäre. Aber wir werden sehen! :) Norleon (talk) 15:30, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya six paths senjutsu
Now that she has used TSB, would you list her? Because from what we could observe, SPS is what allows TSB--Elveonora (talk) 18:11, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * It wasn't stated, but Naruto's TSB appeared after he got SPS and all Tailed Beasts' chakras. Both Obito and Madara's TSB appeared when they became jinchs and when Obito formed the TSB staff to deflect Madara's TSB, Madara called it Sage Transformation.--Elveonora (talk) 18:16, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Same thing? Point being, becoming TT jinch gives Six Paths Senjutsu and Truth Seeking Balls, so it would seem the latter is possible because of the former.--Elveonora (talk) 18:33, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Not sure if it's relevant though. What I wanted to focus on is if you think TSB require SPS or not. But it would be good to bring this to relevant talkpage. Because we either remove SPS as parent to TSB or not. If it's a parent, then Kaguya is also a user of SPS.--Elveonora (talk) 14:40, August 21, 2014 (UTC)

So you don't disagree she has it then? That's what matters.--Elveonora (talk) 15:44, August 21, 2014 (UTC)

We know only as much as we are revealed by the author. So what we know at a time, is true at the time that's how it works. Just like Tobi being Madara was true at the time. We listed it even though we had doubts, because we were told so. So why start making exceptions now? If x seems to be true according to y, we list x as true until proven otherwise, as simple as that--Elveonora (talk) 09:19, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

But we know the important things. Becoming the Ten-Tails' jinch grants Six Paths Senjutsu. Kaguya is the Ten-Tails, so she logically has to have whatever her jinchuuriki get. Madara said Naruto got Six Paths Senjutsu and he got Truth Seeking Balls along with that, just like TT jinchs do. From that we know TSB and SPS are related. I see no reason to omit Kaguya then.--Elveonora (talk) 09:27, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

... the 9 Tailed Beasts' chakras are but a part of the Ten-Tails, so it's not wrong.--Elveonora (talk) 09:40, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

Let me know once you are done with your analysis. I won't know otherwise, because I have namespace/filter set only to talk, filetalk and infoboxtalk. But I don't suspect it will be done anytime soon, it's quite a bit of work.--Elveonora (talk) 11:14, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but the complete TT is with the TB's chakras included. If TBs allow SPS, why wouldn't TT with their charkas (which were originally hers, you know) provide/use SPS? For the analysis, haha xD Get some sugar, apparently it helps make the brain think or something, or was it salt? Swallow both at once :P--Elveonora (talk) 11:56, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

For the TB, I have understood all along what you meant, but what if the SPS was in the dough in the first place and the TB give SPS because they are made of said dough, not because of added raisins or salt--Elveonora (talk) 12:11, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

I never said it was necessary, I was arguing if Kaguya has the SPS because she is the Ten-Tails :P As you said, Madara and Obito didn't meet Hagoromo, so SPS isn't from him, so it must be from the Ten-Tails. The question is if the Ten-Tails had SPS before or after added raisins and salt to her chakra--Elveonora (talk) 12:19, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

Opinions needed
Shu talk page. Munchvtec (talk) 15:04, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

apparently :-/
I aimed a religious remark at you. Did you notice anything insulting of that sort coming from me at your person?--Elveonora (talk) 17:08, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Just a refreshers, since I did delete it pretty quickly. From this thread: "Elveonora said: 'I don't want to bring much religion into this, but just in case you are Christian Seel, I suppose you believe that God made Adam out of dirt and yet, he had dick and balls obviously. So just because the Tailed Beasts were created from chakra doesn't mean they weren't created with reproductive organs, that's really not an argument.' " ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 17:15, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Show me the insult part. Also Seel asked to leave him out of these discussions--Elveonora (talk) 17:18, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * I didn't even read that. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:22, August 25, 2014 (UTC)

Rōmaji
Hello. Something's been bothering me: do the rōmaji have rules about capital letters or not?-- JOA20 17:56, August 26, 2014 (UTC)

Japanese
hey buddy...hope I'm not disturbing...I was considering Rosetta Stone for learning Japanese...is it helpful...or should I go into an academy or something...& also, how did you learn this language...--DARK ZER06 (talk) 05:05, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

so actually
We don't even know the actual extent of powers given to Naruto and Sasuke by Hagoromo. Most people assume that Six Paths Senjutsu and Rinnegan were given to them by Hagoromo, but it's also likely he didn't have anything to do with those and gave them just the tattoos. Because after all, it seems 9 TBs' chakras + Senjutsu = Six Paths Senjutsu or so and Sasuke was given chakra by Hashirama and Kabuto transplanted possibly Hash cells into him and that might be what resulted in the Rinnegan--Elveonora (talk) 11:48, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

Rikudō no Sennin Chakura
Do you happen to have the kanji for this? ~ Ten Tailed Fox 17:08, August 27, 2014 (UTC)


 * Agreed and will do. I don't want to involve you in talk page nonsense, so I'll only ask you once. Given the translations you've read, is it your belief that Kaguya has the Six Paths Senjutsu? I'm all too happy to add her (though it would be odd for her to have a move named after her son), if there is significant evidence in the text, but I'm not seeing it. Even Rikudō no Sennin Chakra could just be referring to the fact that he is the Sage of the Six Paths. Thoughts? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 17:15, August 27, 2014 (UTC)


 * I suppose I've never heard it explained like that before. I agree with that. Okay, we'll wait, but I will keep that bit of information in mind. Thank you. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 17:23, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

Upcoming Chapters
Ok, I am not asking for the website for these. I know that isn't allowed here. But can I ask you this: From now on, due to the "piracy" thing, when will the official release of chapter 690 come out and when will the unofficial release of 690 come out? Again, I am asking when and not where I can find these chapters --- for I would get in trouble if I did. I'm simply asking for the dates of both releases and NOT the websites. Thanks. WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contribs) 22:04, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

Re: Current situation in Japan
From what I understand, the big three manga publishers, Shueisha (Weekly Shōnen Jump, on sale Mondays), Kodansha (Weekly Shōnen Magazine, on sale Wednesdays), and Shogakukan (Weekly Shōnen Sunday, on sale Wednesdays) have changed their shipping policies in an attempt to reduce the spread of spoilers and English bootlegs before street date.

At this point, I don't have any way of knowing how long the delay for scanlations will be, since that depends on when their raw providers will get access to the books. I don't read either of these series, but apparantly Fairy Tail (Weekly Shōnen Magazine) and Kenichi: The Mightiest Disciple (Weekly Shōnen Sunday), which previously leaked on Fridays, were both delayed until Tuesday.

If Weekly Shōnen Jump is delayed by the same amount, it probably means that the bootleg scanlations will be out on Sundays from now on. We'll have to wait and see. And though I'm not actually expecting it to happen at this time, I wouldn't be surprised if Viz Media makes another legal push against the bootleg scanlators soon. Viz is, of course, a subsidiary of both Shueisha and Shogakukan, and with the official English Weekly Shonen Jump publishing simultaneously with Japan and debuting their new "Jump Start!" feature next month, it's very much in their interest to reduce piracy. FF-Suzaku (talk) 08:23, August 28, 2014 (UTC)


 * Their efforts won't last.--TheUltimate3 Amegakure_Symbol.svg (talk) 08:46, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Hagoromo and Telescope Jutsu
Hagoromo was looking into his Truth-Seeking Ball when he said that it is all over. Either he's a sensor or he used this jutsu. You removed him from the Telescope Jutsu page, so, are you going to list him as a Sensor?--Omojuze (talk) 14:13, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Re: Raws?
Hello my friend- how are you today? I regret to inform you that the image I uploaded was not one of the raw images, but just a photo that I cleverly edited so that it could be uploaded onto this wiki without dealing with any copyright issues. I have been waiting for the raws to upload that image, but since they have not yet been released, I just decided to take manners into my own hands. Like I said before, I apologize for the misunderstanding, and let me know if there is anything I can help you with. Thanks, and have a nice day! --KirinNOTKarin98 (talk) 02:04, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

Hanmac?
that depends from which you might know you ... if you are maybe from Pokewiki yes i am, but i didnt had time for that wiki or new pokemon games anymore hanmac (talk) 15:27, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

TSB (again)
On Naruto's page, it says he's a user of Wood Release (probably cuz of the TSB). I thought that was an error, because the Kanji for Water and Wood are similar, and that just Kaguya's TSB have all five elements with Yin and Yang. Wouldn't be surprised if Kaguya is a Wood Release user (I mean, she did fuse with a tree), but not because of the TSB. Wasn't wood a mistake in place of water? Should Naruto be listed as a Wood Release user? And also, didn't Naruto say that his TSB were similar in the text raws and not the same? Naruto probably does have all five elements, with the TSB and Tailed Beasts, but how is he a Wood Release user? WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contribs) 19:12, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then can you remove it then? I have a feeling that if I remove the Wood Release thing off Naruto's page, I'll be asking for an edit war. WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contribs) 22:32, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

Rebuttal Magnet Release analysis
I did you the courtesy of taking my time to read your analysis of Magnet Release very carefully and objectively. Here is my rebuttal.

Regarding Jinton and the eye markings: though you briefly consider the possibility of it being a different type, the main thrust of your analysis is based on the assumption that Toroi's Jiton is identical to that of Gaara's father (hereafter YK, as shorthand for Yondaime Kazekage), Gaara and Shukaku. This is demonstrably false. Lava Release has been used in a variety of ways. Jiton would appear to be no different for the following reasons:
 * Toroi's Jinton weaponised his weapons through attraction using metallic tools that are inherently magnetic.
 * YK, Gaara and Shukaku used Jinton through repulsion using non-magnetic material like gold dust and sand.
 * The two are fundamentally different and thus not one and the same.
 * Those that use repulsion, i.e. YK, Gaara and Shukaku, all have ringed eyes.

Thus, the eye rings are related to Magnet Release and this is apparent in 3/5 cases in which the 3 use identical jutsu and fighting styles. More accurately, 3/3 users of the same variation of Jinton have the rings. In fact, the very assertion that the rings around the eyes bear no relation to Jiton was disingenuous and intellectually dishonest given the context of their reveal.

Additional points:
 * As you pointed out in your old analysis (and mysteriously left out of your new analysis) Naruto does not mould the chakra for Jiton himself, thus there is no reason to believe he would display the rings around his eyes. The fact he doesn't is indicative of Gaara possessing Jiton by himself because he does knead his own chakra.
 * It would have been impossible for the Sandaime Kazekage to base his Jiton, Iron ''Sand, on Shukaku's style if Shukaku never used it to manipulate sand. It is unknown whether the Sandaime Kaze gained rings around his eyes when he was alive, but given the pattern, it is likely.

In regards to Shukaku, your analysis falls apart because I have proven by example of YK that Jiton users do not have to be its jinchūriki to use its variation Jiton. YK uses identical Jiton to Shukaku and his son, only exercised through different material.

With regards to Naruto's inconsistent use of sand, as I pointed in the thread: Shukaku has two distinct abilities: cursed seals and sand manipulation. Both are part of Shukaku's Jiton. The first time Naruto used Jiton, his intention was to seal Madara. The second time it was to attack Kaguya.

Assuming you can now see that Shukaku and Gaara do in fact magnetise sand, then you ought to be able to realise that the fact Naruto cannot use Jiton on his own is indicative of the fact that Gaara's Jiton, while the same, is not tied to Shukaku.

Though not outright confirmed, it is also noteworthy that YK stated Gaara's constant defence is very likely a constant defence mechanism through some kind of will materialisation by Gaara's mother, which would explain Ultimate Defence and ringed eyes after he lost Shukaku's protection.

So to conclude.
 * There are different types of Jiton, based on attraction and repulsion through magnetism
 * Toroi does not have the same type of Jiton as YK, Gaara and Shukaku
 * Ringed eyes are related to the type of magnetism demonstrated by YK, Gaara and Shukaku
 * It is possible, if not outright more likely, that Gaara's Jiton came from his father rather than Shukaku

I hope you do me the same courtesy of reading my rebuttal with the same care and objectivity as I did yours.--Reliops (talk) 20:29, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry for butting in, but to me it seems like you at first tried to prove the relation between the hypothetical Magnet Release of Gaara's and Shukaku, but then you state that Gaara's Magnet came from his father instead, so which?

Also I know you will likely yell at me that retcons happen and that false information is given sometime, but Gaara's rings were stated to be because of insomnia and that's a manga fact, outdated or not--Elveonora (talk) 20:34, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * And Shukaku was stated to be a priest turned to a demon. Tobi was stated to be Madara Uchiha. The Nine-Tails referred to itself as a living mass if evil. The Ten-Tails was a creature devoid of feelings or ideals. Now how about you let Seelentau make his rebuttal.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 20:38, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

@Elve, my argument is that Gaara has Magnet Release, either through his father or Shukaku. It's more likely he got it genetically because his father's ringed eyes and statement regarding his ultimate defence/mother would make those unrelated to Shukaku, and even if that wasn't the case and it was Shukaku that allowed Gaara to use Magnet Release, the fact that Gaara can use it without still makes him a Magnet Release user. Either way, my bases are covered.--Reliops (talk) 20:53, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

Also of note is that of YK's three children, Gaara was the only compatible one. Probably doesn't have to do with body strength, considering he was premature. Its possible Magnet is a prerequisite. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 21:48, August 30, 2014 (UTC)