Talk:Six Paths Sage Mode

There are a lot of incorrect things in this article.
In this state, they can also make perfect use of Yin–Yang Release.[3] Naruto has used it to rekindle Might Guy's extinguishing chakra after the latter had used the Eight Gates Released Formation,[4] as well as restore Kakashi Hatake's original left eye after Madara Uchiha stole his Sharingan.

Aren't these powers independently associated with the Yang marking on Naruto's hand? Considering that it's a power that only Hagoromo and Naruto had (and not Asura), there's nothing that automatically links it to the Six Paths Sage Mode. These feats would be associated with the Yang marking specifically, rather than a transformation Naruto is granted through inheriting the Sage of Six Path's body.

Additionally, they become immune to the effects of Truth-Seeking Balls,[4] and even become capable of manifesting a number their own

These are abilities associated with two different things: The Six Paths Yang Power and possessing the body of the Sage of Six Paths.

The Truth-Seeking Balls are associated with the Ten-Tails, its hosts (Kaguya, Hagoromo, Obito, and Madara), and people who achieve the similar presence of a previous host---namely Asura and Naruto through directly inheriting the Sage's body, although Madara can be included as well, since he literally became Kaguya.

There is nothing linking the Truth-Seeking Balls to the Six Paths Sage Mode. Considering that they originate from the Ten-Tails, manifest when Obito and Madara become the Ten-Tails' host, as well as when Nine-Tails Chakra Mode (enhanced by all the other Tailed Beasts) is activated by Naruto, it is likely that they are associated with Tailed Beasts rather than this heightened form of Sage Mode.

Naruto can take his transformation a step further by drawing power from all nine tailed beasts, donning a chakra cloak that appears similar to his Sage Tailed Beast Mode.

This might be the only part of the article to describe the Nine-Tails Chakra Mode as a separate ability from the Six Paths Sage Mode. Every other part where the chakra-cloaked form is mentioned, it's done so as an ability of Six Paths Sage Mode.

Too many times in the article is Six Paths Sage Mode cited for one of his other abilities.
 * No. In Jin no Sho, it was stated that Six Paths Sage Mode allowed for perfect usage of Yin–Yang Release, and such a thing was what allowed Naruto to recreate Kakashi's left eye and to stop Might Guy's Eight Gates side effect. The Six Paths Yang Power has nothing to do with these feats. Seeing how Asura could manifest Truth-Seeking Balls as well – and he was stated to have gained not Tailed Beast chakra, but Six Paths Chakra – it's clear to me that TSBs aren't directly associated with TBs, but rather with the activation of Six Paths Senjutsu, which Six Paths Sage Mode is a version of. About Naruto's cloak, it's an enhancement of Six Paths Sage Mode, he "just" added the tailed beasts' chakras to the mix. It's considered a variant of Nine-Tails Chakra Mode as well, check the NTCM article.--JOA2007:57, August 16, 2015 (UTC)

Chakra Cloak
Thats from the article -> Naruto can take his transformation a step further by drawing power from all nine tailed beasts, donning a chakra cloak that appears similar to his Sage Tailed Beast Mode.

But thats not true.

A user of it gains a totally different Chakra Cloak (Ashura) and thats the same case with Naruto, his Chakra Cloak is a result of the Six Paths Sage Mode. Which he can use to manifest a Kurama Body THROUGH his Six Paths Chakra Cloak. It has nothing to do with the Nine-Tails Chakra Mode or the other Tailed Beasts.--Keeptfighting (talk) 02:35, October 1, 2015 (UTC)

Usage in Boruto: Naruto the Movie?
I just saw the movie myself, and the only transformation that Naruto took on was his Tailed Beast Sage Mode. He never used his Six Paths Sage Mode, you can tell by the pigmentation around his face. If he was in Six Paths Sage Mode, his face wouldn't be glowing. So why is it listed that he used this mode on some pages related to the movie? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 18:06, October 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * ^Because some users have convinced themselves that Naruto used SPSM no matter what due to ther being "no pigmentation" (in which there clearly was). 18:20, October 25, 2015 (UTC)

In both the manga and anime, and in Gaiden. When Naruto used SPSM there was no major pigmentation around his face, his face was glowing a bit but it never turned flatout orange like it did in this movie. Naruto was clearly using Tailed Beast Sage Mode, if he was using SPSM his skin would be it's normal shade but just glowing a bit. But it wasn't, it was all completely orange just like in TBSM. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 18:28, October 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh believe me, I agree with you, but "no pigmentation" is enough to classify it as SPSM. However, as seen on the article, SPSM as no pigmentation and yellow eyes. In the latest movie, he clearly had red eyes and pigmentation, yet it's still classified that he used SPSM in the movie. Pfft, I dunno what's with people these days. 18:52, October 25, 2015 (UTC)

It's kind of odd, as in the movie he has orange skin, a little bit of red pigment around his eyes, and his pupils are crossed. This looks more like TBSM than SPSM, as SPSM retains his normal skin color with a slight glow and has no pigment at all and has crossed eyes. As for a reason why Naruto didn't use SPSM, it's the same as in The Last imo. If he used it, the movie would have ended too fast and Boruto wouldn't have had a chance to shine. If Naruto created that 3 headed, 6 armed, Asura-like Kurama avatar after absorbing a bunch of natural energy. While Sasuke used his full-fledged flying Complete Body - Susanoo. They would have obliterated Momoshiki through physical combat alone imo or even simply using the physical prowess enhancement SPSM gives, he could take him out. But overall, Naruto still has it as it was clearly used in Gaiden. But it was not used in the movie. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 19:07, October 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * True. Had he used full power against Toneri, that wouldn't of even been a movie. And I don't want to suggest Naruto doesn't have SPSM anymore (because that would make some users' butts bleed crimson fire). But yes, I agree, from what I too saw, SPSM was not used in the Boruto movie itself. 19:12, October 25, 2015 (UTC)

Well what do you think should be done then? Some kind of vote or pole? Wait for others to join in? Cause honestly it should be changed to make the pages more accurate. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 19:23, October 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Presenting the correct information shouldn't ever be decided by a vote or a poll. But again, I agree with you, so we can wait until others chime in. If no one comes, then it can be changed to make things more accurate. If I recall correctly, SPSM was added based on a low quality trailer. 19:29, October 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * If I may throw my two cents here... After watching video with high quality, it shows pretty clearly that Naruto doesn't have pigmentation around his eyes. He does have reddish eyes, but not pigmentation. Now whetever Naruto is using either Tailed Beast Mode or Six Paths Sage Mode, I don't know. Just giving a little correction here. --JouXIII (talk) 20:10, October 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * ^Oho, two different accounts here. Interesting. One says there was pigmentation, another says there wasn't (at least, the red eyes are intact). Is it possible that both appeared in the movie? 20:13, October 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * In that picture posted on this Wikia, showing Sasuke alongside Naruto, when naruto enters his mode you can see naruto without pigmention around his eyes :)--Keeptfighting (talk) 20:20, October 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Unless there was third time, Naruto used Chakra Mode two times: during Momoshiki and Kinshiki's attack and during his fight with KinMomoshiki. The both forms have different markings in the stomach and neither has pigmentation around eyes.*EDIT* I looked again KinMomoshiki fight and markings in Naruto's Chakra Mode in that fight are definitely close to Six Paths Sage Mode. During MomoKin attack, the markings are closer to The Last design.--JouXIII (talk) 20:32, October 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * So it did indeed show. LSSJ4, anything to add? 20:25, October 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * @JouXIII, but Naruto clearly did not use SPSM in The Last. Not sure if markings determine which mode he used, because I assumed it was his eyes that did. So not sure what LSSJ4 saw differently then. SPSM consists of no pigmentation and yellow eyes. Despite the mode Naruto used in the movie having red eyes and resembling his TBSM more, it's determined the he used SPSM regardless. So /shrug. I don't wanna debate this for too long, so I guess it's what it is then. 20:41, October 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * True, Naruto didn't use SPSM in The Last. What I meant was that his Chakra Mode stomach marking during Momoshiki and Kinshiki's attack was similiar to stomach marking in his Chakra mode from The Last. Why there's two different markings in Boruto-movie, I don't know. Sorry about confusion.--JouXIII (talk) 20:50, October 25, 2015 (UTC)

I was referring to the slight red lines above his eyes after he entered TBSM when I said a "little bit of pigmentation". But you're right, the pigmentation is hardly noticeable and he has been incorrectly depicted with his face glowing orange before. Even in the Manga itself, so that can be written off as a simple error on the movie's part. Since lack of pigmentation around the eyes if the main defining feature of SPSM since Naruto's cloaks change so much that they can no longer be used as proof as to what mode he is in. So I agree that despite the coloration, he is most likely in TBSM now. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 21:16, October 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * During MomoKin-attack or fight with KinMomoshiki? Because I don't see any red lines... All I see are his eyelashes.--JouXIII (talk) 21:25, October 25, 2015 (UTC)

During https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxN1jr8EcGc this fight, is when I see the slight red lines above his eyes. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 21:35, October 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Yep, definitely eyelashes. They do turn reddish, though, I admit that.--JouXIII (talk) 21:38, October 25, 2015 (UTC)

What's so hard to get and remember? SPSM is Sage Mode without pigmentation under eyes, that's how it is recognized, the cloaks do not matter. If Naruto has fox-toad eyes without pigmentation, he is using SPSM--Elve Talk Page 13:45, October 26, 2015 (UTC)

"Six Paths Kurama Mode"
Noticed it in the trivia point you guys were edit warring over. I don't recall ever seeing this term being used. For whoever added it, is there a source for it that I'm unaware of? Because if so, I'll gladly add it to the "other names" parameter in the infobox. 18:43, December 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * Apparently, the video games call Naruto's Tailed Beast Mode Kurama Mode. Arawn 999 (talk) 20:06, December 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * First, you need to work on posting comments on a talkpage without reverting someone else's edits, which you've done before.
 * Second, okay. Which video game specifically uses the term "Six Paths Kurama Mode"? Storm 4? If so, source? If not, then what other source uses that term? A user basically just added it in without any type of source to it. 20:19, December 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * Firstly, I didn't deliberately delete anything from your post, that time or now. What probably happened is that you edited your comment - or in the case of the Madara page, added a comment - while I was replying, and my reply saved over your edit. Second, I don't have a copy of Storm 4 to verify since it's not out yet, but that's what it's called on the Naruto Shippūden: Ultimate Ninja Storm 4 page. Arawn 999 (talk) 20:23, December 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * That's besides the point. Is there any source for "Six Paths Kurama Mode"?
 * EDIT: Removed it then. 20:29, December 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually, Naruto's Tailed Beast Mode was called Kurama Mode in the Fourth Databook, so he's obviously not from some kind of video games, although it's true that the "Six Paths" prefix has never been added to SPSM Naruto Kurama Mode officially, it could be called so, but, of course, not in the articles. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 20:41, December 4, 2015 (UTC)

Was also able to track down who added it. Can't believe it's been up there for months. The user who added that is known to add unsourced material to video game articles. 20:42, December 4, 2015 (UTC)


 * While we're at it, can we do away with "Sage Tailed Beast Mode" which is also a fanon name? The term "Tailed Beast Mode" on its own is already questionable, since it comes from a chapter title rather than dialogue.--BeyondRed (talk) 03:37, December 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * I suppose. 03:54, December 5, 2015 (UTC)

Tailed Beasts' chakra as a component 2
Well, there's actually an argument between me and a guy called 8Gates about a TB chakra as a component of SPSM (Shikamaru Hiden novel statement). I think this issue was already discussed many times, and the most of us agreed that the novel is non-canon source, so the statement deserves just a honourable mention in the trivia section, but because of 8Gates persistence I must pick up the topic again to make sure if the opinions didn't change since that time. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 19:28, February 18, 2016 (UTC)
 * People like to argue if the novels are canon or not, but for now this websites considers them not to be. But if and once the anime decides to animate the Shikamaru novel, the statement will become more canon.--Elve Talk Page 22:17, February 18, 2016 (UTC)
 * Canonicity is not in itself a reason to put something in the trivia section. If a piece of information fits elsewhere in the article, it should go there. Just make it clear that it's only implied, and even then only in a particular media. ~SnapperTo 19:21, February 21, 2016 (UTC)

Boruto
Does this mean he's a user in game? --Sarutobii2 (talk) 07:02, May 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * I think that means someone's made a mod for the PC version of the game. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 07:10, May 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * andddd this is why we go to the talk page before editing. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 07:28, May 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * LOL, don't trust every image you see on the internet, buddy :P 17:31, May 8, 2016 (UTC)

Renaming to "Sage of Six Paths Mode"
I'm thinking about renaming this article based on the following: The kanji 六道仙人モード Rikudō Sennin Mōdo are literally translated as Six Paths Sage Mode. 六道仙人 Rikudō Sennin is literally translated as Six Paths Sage, yet we're using Sage of Six Paths. Bot translations mean the same, but the latter would usually be written as 六道の仙人 in Japanese. In English, the latter sounds better, so we're using it. Now, there's little reason to believe 六道仙人モード is meant to be 六道 and 仙人モード instead of 六道仙人 and モード. My idea is based on these things:
 * 1) The Six Paths Sage Mode was never said to be a stronger version of the normal Sage Mode (from what I know).
 * 2) The modes in Naruto are usually X and Mode (Sage and Mode, Chakra and Mode, etc.)
 * 3) Madara is said to be 六道仙人化した Rikudō Sennin kashita. I translated that as Sage of Six Paths Transformation, but since 化した is a normal verb (past form of kasuru, meaning to turn/change/transform (into), the sentence would actually be transformed into the Sage of Six Paths.
 * Last but not least, this would also improve consistency throughout the articles.

So, whatcha thinking? • Seelentau 愛 議 13:32, May 13, 2016 (UTC)
 * Not sure if that's a good idea... From what I've understood, Naruto combines the Six Paths Chakra he got from Hagoromo with the Nature Energy, creating Rikudō Senjutsu chakra, meaning that his Six Paths Sage Mode is Six Paths-enhanced Sage Mode. As for Madara, unlike Naruto, he also had Rinnegan, meaning that he practically transformed into Hagoromo, AKA Sage of Six Paths. So in my opinion the name change would be unnecessary. --JouXIII (talk) 14:47, May 13, 2016 (UTC)
 * You understood that wrong. Hagoromo granted Naruto the mode. • Seelentau 愛 議 14:50, May 13, 2016 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... After some checking, Naruto uses Six Paths Sage Chakra (六道の仙人チャクラ, Rikudō no Sennin Chakura), which is basically Six Paths-enhanced Sage chakra, right? --JouXIII (talk) 15:09, May 13, 2016 (UTC)
 * No idea, but if we want to be consistent, it would be Sage Chakra of Six Paths. • Seelentau 愛 議 15:22, May 13, 2016 (UTC)
 * Is the chakra used for senjutsu ever called "sennin chakra" in Japanese, or is it always "senjutsu chakra"? Because if the former has been used, "Rikudō no Sennin Chakura" could just mean Hagoromo's senjutsu chakra rather than a term for a special type.--BeyondRed (talk) 16:29, May 13, 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't think it was ever called that. The term "sage" in general is only very rarely used in relation to "normal" senjutsu. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:20, May 13, 2016 (UTC)

Bump. I think the most important one is the first point. Where was it stated that this mode is a stronger version of Sage Mode? I think it's just an assumption based on the translation of 六道仙人モード as Six Paths Sage Mode. Even if we'd keep that translation, it could very well be just another way of applying natural energy (as is Sage Transformation). But since Sage of Six Paths Mode is more logical and consistent (after all, it's a mode granted by the So6P), I think it's not true that it's a stronger SM. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:50, May 14, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, there's still that toad eyes crossed with fox thing going on and toad eyes means Sage Mode in Naruto's case.--Elve Talk Page 12:03, May 14, 2016 (UTC)
 * But it would imply that it turns the user into Hagoromo, which would be true only to Madara, since he has both Rinnegan and Six Paths Senjutsu. Naruto doesn't have Rinnegan, only Six Paths Senjutsu. Also, last time I checked you can't fly with regular Sgae Mode and as shown with Sasuke and Kakashi, Six Paths Chakra(which Hagoromo did gave to Naruto) empowers ones abilities considerably. --JouXIII (talk) 12:09, May 14, 2016 (UTC)
 * Nothing implies that it turns the user into Hagoromo and nothing speaks against Naruto using Sage Mode and SoSP Mode in unison. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:21, May 14, 2016 (UTC)
 * Except Sage of Six Paths = Hagoromo and he has Rinnegan and Six Paths Senjutsu, where Naruto only has latter. --JouXIII (talk) 12:43, May 14, 2016 (UTC)
 * It's called Sage of Six Paths Mode, not Hagoromode. It's the Sage of Six Paths Mode because it's granted by the Sage of Six Paths, not because it turns you into the Sage of Six Paths. Otherwise, Naruto would've gotten the Rinnegan as well. Madara is the only one who was said to have actually turned into the Sage of Six Paths. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:45, May 14, 2016 (UTC)
 * Which is my point. Glad you got it. --JouXIII (talk) 12:55, May 14, 2016 (UTC)

Have you ever thought why Hagoromo was called "Sage of Six Paths" or as you say literally "Six Paths Sage" ? Have you considered that it's because of Six Paths Senjutsu? So even if translation "Sage of Six Paths Mode" would be correct, I don't think it refers to transforming into Hagoromo, rather to being Sage of Six Paths and Sage of Six Paths/Six Paths Sage is one who uses Six Paths Senjutsu. /solved--Elve Talk Page 12:56, May 14, 2016 (UTC)

Not to mention Hamura has Six Paths Chakra/Six Paths Senjutsu too, so that special chakra isn't exclusive to Hagoromo, it's just a special type of chakra. QuakingStar (talk) 12:59, May 14, 2016 (UTC)
 * So you all agree that the 六道仙人 in this term is the same as the title Hagoromo got? Because that's what this discussion is about. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:04, May 14, 2016 (UTC)
 * There's Rinnegan, which is called Eye of the Six Paths. Also, Madara and Nagato have been called Second Six Paths and Third Six Paths respectively. Have you ever considered that combining Rinnegan and Six Paths Senjutsu made Hagoromo Sage of Six Paths? Also, no, I don't agree, @seelentau. --JouXIII (talk) 13:07, May 14, 2016 (UTC)
 * Then why did the manga differentiate between 六道のX and 六道X? As I explained above, both can be translated as Six Paths, but the first is literally of Six Paths. If this was supposed to be the Sage Mode of Six Paths, the Japanese name would've been 六道の仙人モード Rikudō no Sennin Mōdo, comparable to how it's 六道の仙人チャクラ Rikudō no Sennin Chakura and not 六道仙人チャクラ Rikudō Sennin Chakura. I hope that makes the difference more clear. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:15, May 14, 2016 (UTC)

Idk if it's because I am still waking up or not, but I'm lost in translation. What is the correct terms you are proposing based on the correct kanji and translations?? QuakingStar (talk) 13:18, May 14, 2016 (UTC)
 * See above. It's basically about if the kanji are meant to be [六道仙人][モード] [Rikudō Sennin] [Mōdo] ([Sage of Six Paths] [Mode]) or [六道][仙人モード] [Rikudō] [Sennin Mōdo] ([Six Paths] [Sage Mode]) and I think it's supposed to be the first one, because whenever something is said to be Rikudō X, it's written with a の, for example 六道の仙人チャクラ Rikudō no Sennin Chakura (Six Paths Sage Chakra). So it would've been written as 六道の仙人モード Rikudō no Sennin Mōdo (Six Paths Sage Mode). I also need to point out that の is a possessive particle, so it's actually Six Paths or of Six Paths, as opposed to just Six Paths. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:34, May 14, 2016 (UTC)
 * [六道][仙人モード] [Rikudō] [Sennin Mōdo] ([Six Paths] [Sage Mode]) makes way more sense since Sage of Six Paths Mode implies that Naruto(and Ashura when you think about it) got full power of Hagoromo(Rinnegan + Six Paths Senjutsu), which isn't true. The only one it would fit would be Madara, who HAS both Rinnegan and Six Paths Senjutsu. So with current name, there won't be any confusion. --JouXIII (talk) 13:52, May 14, 2016 (UTC)
 * Then why is it 六道の仙人チャクラ Rikudō no Sennin Chakura and not 六道仙人チャクラ Rikudō Sennin Chakura? • Seelentau 愛 議 13:58, May 14, 2016 (UTC)

Read what I wrote people. If Seelentau's Japanese translation is correct, then he is well... correct and should be renamed. Sage of Six Paths Mode does in no way implies that its user has 100% power as Hagoromo.--Elve Talk Page 14:05, May 14, 2016 (UTC)
 * Or this could be resolved by changing Hagoromo's moniker from Sage of Six Paths to Six Paths Sage as the literal translation is. For anyone who doesn't understand, Seelentau has 2 points: consistency with Hagoromo's moniker and that this is called "Six Paths Sage - Mode" rather than "Six Paths - Sage Mode"--Elve Talk Page 14:14, May 14, 2016 (UTC)
 * I have suggestion: Seelentau has Japanese contacts, right? So couldn't he ask them how they see the kanji of 六道仙人モード are meant to be, like is it [六道][仙人モード] [Rikudō] [Sennin Mōdo] ([Six Paths] [Sage Mode]) or [六道仙人][モード] [Rikudō Sennin] [Mōdo] ([Sage of Six Paths] [Mode]? That way we would get better picture. --JouXIII (talk) 14:19, May 14, 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't have Japanese contacts and asking a Japanese doesn't help much when they don't know English (and are translators). But I asked OD about it, let's see what her answer is. • Seelentau 愛 議 14:42, May 14, 2016 (UTC)

Have you tried to extend an invitation to her to join us here yet?? She would be much welcomed addition here. She never answers my messages to I don't even try. QuakingStar (talk) 14:55, May 14, 2016 (UTC)
 * You haven't been to my talk page lately, hm? :P • Seelentau 愛 議 14:58, May 14, 2016 (UTC)

Now we have two of the best translators here. I'm actually a tad excited. QuakingStar (talk) 15:05, May 14, 2016 (UTC)
 * Generally, I always am in favour of consistency, so renaming the articles does sound good to me. It's a bit nitpicky, but the small detail of の being there or not does indeed carry more meaning than one might think at first glance. I might want to add though that this discussion is pretty hard to get into if you weren't invested in it from the very beginning. Some kind of TL;DR would be great to invite more people to the discussion. It relies pretty heavily on Japanese grammar and nuances after all. Norleon (talk) 05:13, May 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * Actually, Six Paths Sage Mode is correct, the change to Sage of Six Paths Mode is just to be consistent with Sage of Six Paths as Hagoromo's moniker, since we use that.--Elve Talk Page 09:49, May 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * No, Six Paths Sage Mode is (most likely) not correct, because a の is missing. Compare it to Six Paths Sage Chakra. If we were to be 100% correct, everything written with a の would be translated as X's Y (Six Paths' Sage Chakra) or Y of X (Sage Chakra of Six Paths), and everything without a の would be X Y (Six Paths Sage Mode), but then we'd have to change more established terms such as Hagoromo's moniker (and it could very well be applied to techniques as well). And I can see some people here not liking that "cause it could confuse the fans".
 * The tl;dr is We should change every term that uses Rikudō Sennin to Sage of Six Paths for consistency and because the possessive particle is missing.. • Seelentau 愛 議 10:32, May 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * Like "Sage of Six Paths Mode" would be any less confusing? --JouXIII (talk) 10:46, May 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * Why? We'd just change the translation of a term to be more consistent, which is my job here anyways. As Elve said, the other option would be to change Hagoromo's moniker, but I wouldn't like that, since it sounds stupid. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:08, May 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * So does "Sage of Six Paths Mode". Also, I don't see Naruto having any Rinnegan. --JouXIII (talk) 11:24, May 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * Just like how I'm getting sick of "canonicity" getting brought up in discussions, I'm also starting to get sick of people trying to imply that they're being paid to edit this wiki. Nobody pays anyone, so stop saying it's a "job", people are here willingly and voluntarily to help, not because someone pays them to do it. >_>
 * So that my post does not get removed for being "off-topic", I'll just say that I don't agree with changing it either. --Sajuuk 11:27, May 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * It only sounds stupid because we didn't use it from the beginning, which is something we should've. And what does Naruto not having the Rinnegan have to do with it? I stated multiple times that the name doesn't imply that Naruto turned into Hagoromo. It's the Sage of Six Paths Mode because it's granted by the Sage of Six Paths, as per databook. And what about my other arguments? Did you read them? • Seelentau 愛 議 11:53, May 16, 2016 (UTC)

@Seel, 六道の仙人チャクラ should be changed then to Six Paths' Sage Chakra/Sage Chakra of Six Paths, right? But there is no の in 六道仙人モード so shouldn't it be Six Paths Sage Mode after all? Just like 六道仙人 should be Six Paths Sage, instead of Sage of Six Paths--Elve Talk Page 13:43, May 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, but that would be the option I wouldn't prefer to go with, simply because Sage of Six Paths is much more known among the fans, changing it to Six Paths Sage would cause more confusion than changing Six Paths Sage Mode to Sage of Six Paths Mode. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:50, May 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm all for it then. Changing it to Sage of Six Paths Mode, while not entirely correct, will be consistent with the moniker and also avoid the assumption that it's Six Paths-Sage Mode rather than Six Paths Sage-Mode.--Elve Talk Page 14:32, May 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes. Plus, if it was really supposed to be Six Paths Sage Mode, it would've been written as 六道の仙人モード, because the chakra used in this mode is written as 六道の仙人チャクラ. • Seelentau 愛 議 14:50, May 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * Then again, if it was really suppose to be Sage of Six Paths Mode, it would've been written as 六道仙人チャクラモード, Rikudo Sennin Chakura Mōdo, since Hagoromo granted chakra to do it. Also, for the sake of "consistency" we can now spread false info, huh? Good to know. --JouXIII (talk) 15:01, May 16, 2016 (UTC)

Sigh... then let's just correct the entire fandom and rename Hago to Six Paths Sage--Elve Talk Page 15:08, May 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * So you add a word to it, thus creating an entirely new term and then claim that we're wrong based on that new term? That way of arguing sounds awfully familiar... anyways, there's no false info spread by correcting a translation (something which I should just do without asking, in the future). I mean, you can continue believing that the new term implies something but that won't make it true. Especially not if we clarify in the intro that it's a mode granted by Hagoromo. I also would like to see a source for the claim that it's a stronger Sage Mode. • Seelentau 愛 議 15:22, May 16, 2016 (UTC)

Alright so apparently, people aren't believing you alone Seel, so let's just add FF-Suzaku and OD to the talks and see what they have to say. If it's other japanese understanding translators who are also on it, then they won't have **** to say when it's added by you. QuakingStar (talk) 20:00, May 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, Norleon knows Japanese better than me and the other two do so as well (or at least OD does), but to my knowledge, I'm the only one who's actually studying translation. This wasn't really set out to be a yes/no discussion, to begin with. The input from people who don't know Japanese or how translations work is nice to have, but of limited quality. If the only argument is that the new term would imply something wrong, I can't let it count, because it's purely subjective. So as long as OD or Suzakun don't tell my I'm wrong with my explanations above, I'm going to change the term anyway. inb4rightsabuse • Seelentau 愛 議 20:30, May 16, 2016 (UTC)

Have no clue why people are arguing it, if it's right it's right. Now to wait for the other translators inputs as you said. QuakingStar (talk) 20:55, May 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok only argument against renaming is with new name readers will think that Naruto has Rinnegan? That's ludicrous it's not like there is only this one page on entire wiki. Rage gtx (talk) 21:11, May 16, 2016 (UTC)

I personally oppose the rename. FF-Suzaku (talk) 05:39, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Both the Japanese pixiv wiki and the Japanese wikipedia list 六道仙人モード as a subset of 仙人モード. This is clearly how native Japanese speakers have interpreted it. Additionally, the databook classifies 六道仙人モード as a type of 仙術. There's also the term 	六道仙術, which clearly means "Six Paths Senjutsu" and not "Sage of Six Paths Jutsu." To me that further indicates that Six Paths Senjutsu is a type of Senjutsu, and thus Six Paths Sage Mode is a type of Sage Mode.
 * Aside from that, the difference between "Six Paths Sage Mode" and "Sage of Six Paths Mode" is, in my opinion, largely insignificant. There are problems with both, simply due to the way language works; the change only shifts the problem around. Is it Sage of "Six Paths Mode" or "Sage of Six Paths" Mode? As such, I see no real benefit in pushing through this change.
 * "Sage of the Six Paths" and "Six Paths Sage Mode" have been used in every official translation I can think of, as well as every fan translation I can think of. Frankly, if I had it my way, we'd just switch the entire Wikia over to primarily use the official English translations. Then these tedious semantic arguments could end because we'd just defer to the official English source with alternative translations and additional context provided somewhere else in the body of the article.
 * Do you think we should rename Hagoromo's moniker then? And what about 六道の仙人チャクラ, why's a の used there, but not in 六道仙人モード? • Seelentau 愛 議 09:36, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * No, I don't, because there's no real reason to. The meaning is the same, and "Sage of the Six Paths" both sounds better (subjective) and has precedence (objective). There's no confusion. As for the latter term, I don't know. Six Paths terminology is inconsistent as fuck and we don't have even simple context, like what "Six Paths" *really* means, beyond some abstract samsaric cosmology bullshit that's mostly been metaphorical. I guess "Six Paths Sage Chakra" is a type of "Sage Chakra". So is Six Paths Sage Mode a type of Sage Mode that uses Six Paths Sage Chakra? Or is it not a type of Sage Mode, but rather a "Six Paths Sage" Mode? If so, why is Six Paths Sage Chakra classified as a type of Sage Chakra?


 * Frankly, the terms are all so abstract and obtuse that it doesn't really matter. Six Paths Sage Chakra is a bullshit -- probably improvised -- term with no concrete meaning used in a throwaway bit of dialogue. It has something to do with the Six Paths and that's all you need to know.


 * Besides, no matter what terminology you use there will be semantic issues, because situations involving multiple adjectives, possessives, and noun adjuncts are inherently confusing. Moving around the particles or rephrasing the terms won't solve the underlying issue, and it persists through translation.


 * To me, the important takeaway is that this doesn't really seem to be a problem that needs fixing. Changing it won't clarify anything, at worst it'll cause more confusion. I don't know what else to tell you. Maybe someday we'll get additional context that necessitates further clarification, but for now I'd just stick with what subjectively sounds better or objectively has precedence. Or just defer to the official English translations and make everything a lot more simple. FF-Suzaku (talk) 14:38, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

Hagoromo
Hagoromo should be listed as a user of this power. While he was never seen using it, he gave the power to use it to both Asura and Naruto, just like he gave Naruto and Sasuke each half the power to use the Six Path Chibaku Tensei.--Steveo920 (talk) 06:12, May 20, 2016 (UTC)
 * He was the Ten-Tails' jinchūriki, so he may have achieved Six Paths Senjutsu by other means.--JOA2006:52, May 20, 2016 (UTC)

Appearance section
There are articles on the wiki, such as Nine-Tails Chakra Mode and the appearance section of this article, that still describe Naruto's Six Paths Sage Mode to be his chakra cloak (urgh...). Naruto's Six Paths Sage Mode is his fox-toad eyes without Sage Mode's vermilion pigmentation around the eyes, correct? In order to be undeviating from that idea, I think the entire appearance section should go in the Nine-Tails Chakra Mode article (as it currently describes his chakra cloaks and not his eyes) and we should note here that Naruto's fox-toad eyes sans pigmentation have been both yellow and red depending on the chakra mode he dons. 04:18, August 14, 2018 (UTC)
 * Replying to Omnibender's argument here:
 * "Asura is what makes the distinction difficult. Based on the recent change, Naruto's Asura Kurama Mode is the result of SPSM modifying TBM, the implication being one needs both to display AKM."
 * How, exactly? He has SPS, but not SPSM. Like Obito and Madara. Concerning the recent change, I was just describing what I saw. I saw Naruto using a heightened state of Sage Mode to gather enormous amounts of natural energy through the cooperation of a Kurama avatar clone due to battling Sasuke simultaneously, and then fusing his Kurama avatar with two others to create the AKM construct, with the remaining natural energy used for the senjutsu attack he used to counter Sasuke's strongest attack. So yes, Naruto created the AKM due to having three Kurama avatars present, with the natural energy only serving to power him and his attacks up. Did not intend to give off that implication you are describing, so I'll edit it accordingly.
 * "Asura can't have TBM without being a jinchuriki, and if Asura doesn't have SPSM, he also can't have AKM."
 * But he doesn't have TBM? Nor does he have AKM because he's not a jinchūriki of Kurama. Or is Asura stated to have AKM somewhere that I didn't know about? He has his own chakra avatar with three heads and six arms, which we don't know much about aside from it having TSBs and looking similar to AKM, but it's still anyone's guess. I agree with Elve's notion that SPSM is the one thing that Naruto has, similar to Sasuke's one-eyed purple, six-tomoe Rinnegan. It's exclusive to them until shown otherwise. We haven't really seen Asura with those fox-toad eyes, so he doesn't have SPSM.
 * "I know there is a big deal made of the cross eyes without pigmentation being SPSM, but the databook entry shows him both with and without a NTCM-like chakra cloak. SPS doesn't have its own entry in the databook, it's something that is mentioned in articles where it's relevant. Rinne Sharingan is in the same situation."
 * A really big deal. I'm assuming that is the databook entry for SPSM. SPSM is just the fox-toad eyes without pigmentation irrespective of the chakra cloak being present or not, so... doesn't showing him both with and without a NTCM-like chakra cloak only support that, or am I missing something? Or are you saying that because the databook showed him with and without the cloak, we should do the same? I left the image of the Hagoromo-enhanced NTCM cloak in the article, so if anything, we are doing things just like the databoook. After the war, Naruto certainly used his NTCM cloak as his eyes are orange and his skin is glowing like all of his previous NTCMs and he does not have yellow eyes with non-glowing skin like we saw after he escaped death. Which is why what was the appearance section here is in the NTCM article. The appearance section was describing the appearance of the cloaks, and not the eyes. However, now that I think about it, I can add back the images I removed in a slideshow where Naruto's Hagoromo-enhanced cloak is in the article in order to showcase Naruto's eyes being orange after the war, if that helps. I've no problem doing that. And yes, we weren't given much with SPS or the Rinne Sharingan, unfortunately.
 * "Both Naruto and Asura need to be listed as users of whichever is considered to be the source of AKM, be it SPS or SPSM."
 * Why? Or rather, how does Asura have AKM when he is not a jinchūriki of Kurama? Naruto has his AKM, and Asura has his... "Asura Mode" chakra avatar for lack of a better term. I think the most that could be said apropos of the "source of AKM" is that Naruto, after his encounter with Hagoromo and the nine-tailed beasts, had large enough chakra reserves to be able to create and maintain the AKM, similar to how Sasuke had the chakra to suddenly use Complete Body Susanoo right after meeting Hagormo as well. Naruto used natural energy to help him do so with two other clones. I messed up giving off the implication that AKM needs SPSM (or SPS) to be created, that was my bad.
 * "Flight is shown in the SPSM databook entry, so it's something that appears to both SPS and SPSM."
 * That I did not know. Thought it was a SPS thing. I will add flight back to the SPSM page accordingly.
 * "Based on TSB databook entry, which links it to SPS, Asura has to have that in the manga as well, being the things he holds in the flashback, and Naruto only manifested his when he turned on the NTCM-like chakra cloak."
 * I don't disagree with the notion that Asura has the SPS and TSBs. And yes, Naruto only manifested his SPS and TSBs with the cloak. I don't believe Naruto used a "NTCM-like" cloak, I believe it is the NTCM cloak, or a variant of it. Naruto continued to use his NTCM cloak with SPSM during and after the war. Why it had non-glowing skin and yellow eyes, is anyone's guess. Maybe it was because of his SPS? Dunno. But if we saw Asura with that exact same cloak Naruto used against Madara, Kaguya and Sasuke, then I'd see your point, but we only saw that three-headed, six-armed "Asura Mode" construct. Whatever chakra avatar Asura used was similar, but not the same. It's like him using Amenomihashira and Naruto using the Rasengan. Similar techniques, but not the same. 22:11, August 16, 2018 (UTC)
 * Bump. 19:47, August 17, 2018 (UTC)
 * The crux of the matter is defining what Asura's chakra avatar, and I don't think there are any really good options. Either A, based on the look of Asura's chakra avatar and Naruto's AKM they're the same thing (three-faced six-armed), both Asura and Naruto need to be listed as users of SPS or SPSM, whichever is considered the source of AKM, which is difficult to determine, or B, Asura and Naruto's forms, despite looking the same are differently sourced, which is wildly speculative. Every way you look at it, something is lacking. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:33, August 17, 2018 (UTC)
 * So on one hand you people say that Asura wasn't a jinchuuriki, but on the other that he must have been or what? Why does he matter? We know so little about him. We should just write down what we know. 'papa 'Goromo blessed Asura with SPS as the latter manifested TSB'

If your point is that we know only of 3 ways of getting SPS (TT jinch, SPSM, Tenseigan/Hamura's chakra whatever BS) then Asura definitely wasn't a TT jinch, definitely didn't have Tenseigan thus SPSM seems like the logical option, 'cept not once in the manga or the anime did we see him with cross shaped eyes and what not. Not seen =/= not true, I know, but too speculative to claim such. Even if Asura had SPSM, the novel suggests that one still needs chakras from all the TB, SPSM being sort of a Sage Mode + pseudo-TT jinch mode hybrid or so. So either we state speculative unconfirmed information, or we leave it alone and simply assume there might be a 4th way and state 'x and y because z by undisclosed means' and that's it.--Elve Talk Page 10:37, August 18, 2018 (UTC)
 * Asura's form has to come from some sort of body strength based source, him having his father's "body" and all. That being the case, Asura's form should be confined to only Asura's article if we can't pinpoint where it comes form. Something unrelated to Asura, but that I think we should also point out is that aside from when he first awakened it, Naruto's never used only SPSM (only the eyes changing), he always used it with NTCM, kinda like him never using regular Wind Release: Rasengan after developing Rasenshuriken. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:46, August 18, 2018 (UTC)


 * "The crux of the matter is defining what Asura's chakra avatar, and I don't think there are any really good options. Either A, based on the look of Asura's chakra avatar and Naruto's AKM they're the same thing (three-faced six-armed), both Asura and Naruto need to be listed as users of SPS or SPSM, whichever is considered the source of AKM, which is difficult to determine, or B, Asura and Naruto's forms, despite looking the same are differently sourced, which is wildly speculative. Every way you look at it, something is lacking."
 * "Asura's form has to come from some sort of body strength based source, him having his father's 'body' and all. That being the case, Asura's form should be confined to only Asura's article if we can't pinpoint where it comes form."
 * I think I'm beginning to understand Omnibender's argument (if I'm still not getting it Omni, forgive me). Indra inherited his father's "eyes", so to speak (the Sharingan), and gains Susanoo, which is a Sharingan technique. Asura inherited his father's "body" (Six Paths Senjutsu), and gets his unique chakra avatar using the TSBs, the latter of which can be accessed through SPS.
 * ---This is where things get speculative---
 * So rather, like how Sasuke and Indra's Susanoo come from the Sharingan, Naruto and Asura's very similar three-headed/six-armed chakra avatars may come from SPS, which both have along with the TSBs. If I'm understanding Omni's concern correctly, the whole part about Naruto's AKM should not be in the SPSM article, but perhaps the SPS article (and it's already in the NTCM article, as AKM needs to be documented somewhere). When I give it more thought, AKM being more tied to SPS and not SPSM is actually more consistent, given:


 * Asura has a similar mode to AKM and only has SPS
 * Just like the SPS back pattern and the TSB, Naruto did not use AKM after the war and just used regular TBM
 * For Obito and Madara, after becoming the TT's jinchūriki, they got SPS and TBM, which make the latter two related, thus Naruto's SPS and his AKM, the latter of which is a powered-up TBM, must be related as well.
 * ---End of speculation---
 * SPS and AKM being related is option A that Omni alludes to. Option A may be speculative, but makes sense. AKM being related to SPSM, which is option B, makes even less sense. So currently, the article is representing option B.
 * So Omni, to modify option A that you brought up, how about this course of action without any speculation in it: Naruto and Asura's modes are similar and not the same, both are listed as SPS users, and essentially, the AKM part of this SPSM article must be removed, as it implies SPSM is the source of AKM, which makes no sense as Asura had a similar chakra avatar, but not SPSM. Is that what you want? Because now that I've given it more thought, that course of action makes sense and I agree with it.
 * So now Omni and Elve, what about the other points I made in my second post under this topic, to make another TL; DR:


 * I fully believe that after the war, Naruto clearly used NTCM and TBM in conjunction with SPSM as his skin was glowing and his eyes were orange. So I think the appearance section that was describing the cloaks Naruto used during and after the war should remain in the NTCM article and that appearance section which was essentially describing NTCM and not SPSM shouldn't come back to this article.
 * However, as I said earlier, I am willing to add back the images I removed in the recent edit and place them in a slideshow where Naruto's Hagoromo-enhanced cloak is in the article in order to showcase Naruto's eyes being orange after the war.
 * As I also said earlier and fully realize now, I fucked up giving off the implication that AKM needs SPSM to be created (option B that Omni alluded to). AKM part must be removed. It's more likely SPS is needed to use AKM (though this isn't to imply that the AKM part here needs to be moved to the SPS article - as this assertion may make more sense, it's still on the speculative side of things).
 * I'll add flight back to this SPSM article, as I was not aware it was listed under SPSM until Omni mentioned it. And also:
 * "Something unrelated to Asura, but that I think we should also point out is that aside from when he first awakened it, Naruto's never used only SPSM (only the eyes changing), he always used it with NTCM, kinda like him never using regular Wind Release: Rasengan after developing Rasenshuriken."


 * Sure, I've no problem doing this either.
 * Last point: if we want to move the AKM part here into the SPS article and perhaps pinpoint Asura's mode to SPS, I've no problem doing that as to me it makes perfect sense now, but I understand if it's a bit speculative and we choose to err on the side of caution.
 * Thoughts? 07:03, August 19, 2018 (UTC)
 * Bump. 02:18, August 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * Go get'em tiger.--Elve Talk Page 07:57, August 20, 2018 (UTC)