Talk:Sage Mode

Kabuto's image
Wouldn't it make more sense to replace it with one that actually shows his eyes? His glasses obscure them on the one that's used at the present.--Elveonora (talk) 11:59, September 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Bump--Elveonora (talk) 09:28, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Do you have an image in mind? SusanooUnleashed (talk) 11:40, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Something that shows a better close-up of his face, in particular the eyes, without that nerdy glasses reflection.--Elve Talk Page 12:23, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * How about this one? Or we could make version of the one on the right without Suigetsu in it and use that one.--Neffyarious (talk) 12:49, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Is this image appropriate? --Sarutobii2 (talk) 13:48, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Sarutobii, that one is great. EDIT: can you take the same shot but in a HD resolution? thanks--Elve Talk Page 14:27, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's already a 720p upload. I'm going to put it in the article.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg JOA20 14:44, September 27, 2014 (UTC)

I guess ur right, but the old one was of higher resolution--Elve Talk Page 16:17, September 27, 2014 (UTC)

Orochimaru
When fighting Sage Mode Kabuto, Sasuke mentions that Orochimaru used imperfect Sage Mode. Also, he was said by Kabuto to have learned how to use it, only not being able to use it because he didn't have the right body. Orochimaru's imperfect Sage Mode that Sasuke referred to is probably his "Great White Serpent" form, which has the same eyes that Kabuto has when he goes into Sage Mode.--Neffyarious (talk) 13:31, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, that form was a result of genetic experimentation, but I agree Orochimaru is a user--Elveonora (talk) 13:48, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * I also agree that he is a user since it was stated but that form was said to be his true form that he obtained from long years of experiments done on himself. Munchvtec (talk) 14:00, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sage Mode is a state that results from Senjutsu chakra. Orochimaru can produce and absorb Senjutsu chakra, meaning he can use Sage Mode. Just because his host bodies can't doesn't mean he shouldn't be listed, after all, he learned Senjutsu before he transferred for the first time and absorbed Senjutsu chakra from Kabuto while having his own body.--Elveonora (talk) 14:08, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * He isn't a user. Kabuto said that Orochimaru was unable to use Sage Mode. • Seelentau 愛 議 14:45, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * He said that Orochimaru couldn't find a suitable host body to withstand Sage Mode, not that he didn't learn it and couldn't use it with his own body, since he obviously could, otherwise how would he produce and absorb senjutsu chakra?--Elveonora (talk) 15:10, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * One doesn't have to be in Sage Mode to make use of senjutsu chakra (if you did, Madara taking Hashirama's chakra and not turning to stone wouldn't be at thing) one doesn't automatically enter Sage Mode by having access to senjutsu chakra. Now that being said, Orochimaru may know how to enter Sage Mode but if he couldn't ever actually do it then he can't use it.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 15:15, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then how does one enter Sage Mode besides molding Senjutsu chakra? Because from what we have seen, it happens just like that, no activation needed. Naruto deactivated his clones who had gathered natural energy and molded Senjutsu chakra, having their chakras return to his real body and boom! Sage Mode happens, there's no hand seal or anything. And Madara didn't turn into stone because he could control said chakra according to his own words--Elveonora (talk) 15:21, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree with @TU3 in this one, Orochimaru might know everything about Sage Mode and its procedure but Kabuto clearly said that he wasn't able to use it. I could make a research about planes and how to fly them but if I have never flown one, I'm not a pilot, I don't know if that's a good example of my point. I believe that what @TU3 was trying to say is that being able to use senjutsu chakra is not equal to be in Sage Mode, like Jugo for example. So, I don't think Orochimaru is a user. Leo  Hatake  16:07, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * But Jugo IS using Sage Mode, that being Sage Transformation, I brought that up many times. And Orochimaru doesn't only know about Senjutsu, he can produce Senjutsu chakra and absorb it. There's no evidence at all that Sage Mode is anything else but having Senjutsu chakra flow thorough your body--Elveonora (talk) 16:35, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't see Jugo listed as a user, so Orochimaru is not listed as a user. Simple as that. Leo  Hatake  16:41, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Leo please stop trying to end the discussion short.
 * @elve, i believe what you are saying because it's true...there is nothing that states that senjutsu is anything else. Munchvtec (talk) 16:42, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Leo, because it's a mistake Jugo isn't listed that I would like corrected. Sage Transformation is Sage Mode with mutating bodily fluids as extra, that's all. Not having Jugo listed is like crediting someone with Lightning Release Shadow Clone but not Shadow Clone Technique. And anyone is yet to show that Sage Mode is anything but Senjutsu chakra flowing through their bodies, because all the manga says and shows just that--Elveonora (talk) 16:46, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Jesus Christ. The manga states that Orochimaru can not enter Sage Mode. I don't give a fuck about the reason he couldn't or what the difference between using Senjutsu chakra and Sage Mode is. He could not enter Sage Mode so he won't be listed as a user. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:50, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Alright man calm done. Munchvtec (talk) 16:51, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Munchvtec What? Is it wrong to end a discussion short? Sorry if I'm not used to the long, unnecessary, and endless debates that is placed around here. It Is better to conclude a discussion short and clear with facts, that continue and reach a discussion that only will contain theories, assumptions, speculations and resentments between users.
 * @Elveonora, the Jugo as user is another discussion, if you want open that can, you are free to do it but here we are talking about Orochimaru. Orochimaru is not listed because Kabuto mentioned that he didn't use it, and if you make that Jugo is listed as a user, then, I will in your path, otherwise, I'm not. Leo  Hatake  16:59, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, it doesn't say that, it says he couldn't find suitable host bodies for Sage Mode, that's not the same as saying "he can't use Sage Mode". Imagine that if Sasuke were to use Fushi Tensei on Naruto for an example, he wouldn't be able to use Sharingan anymore, most probably. So your logic would be to remove Sasuke as Sharingan user because he could no longer use it in new body. I insist that Orochimaru can use Sage Mode with his own body without a host, there's no reason to think otherwise.
 * I find it highly hypocritical that you choose to be "logical" when it comes to one topic, but chooses to be ignorant about another. And if you don't give a fuck then don't comment. Unless I somehow missed a manga page or databook entry that say there's something else to Sage Mode besides getting empowered by Senjutsu chakra, then there isn't, the burden of proof lies on you--Elveonora (talk) 17:03, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * He could not use Sage Mode because he did not have a suitable host body. So why would you label him as a user when he couldn't use it? And the very fact that Orochimaru can gather natural energy but not use Sage Mode, proves that there's a difference. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:21, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * the same reason we list kakashi as being able to use those kamui chidori and shuriken jutsu's even though he can't anymore. Munchvtec (talk) 17:22, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Seel, hasn't he got a suitable body to use Sage Mode as you say OR he could use Sage Mode, but couldn't since he started using Fushi Tensei, because host bodies couldn't handle it. You say he needs a good host bodies in order to use Sage Mode, I say host bodies are actually what prevents him from using Sage Mode, Kabuto's statement can be interpreted either way and the latter makes more sense to me--Elveonora (talk) 17:25, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * *sigh* I believe you should first think a little bit your words but well, I will try to answer your "burden of proof". It says he couldn't find suitable host bodies for Sage Mode, that's not the same as saying "he can't use Sage Mode. Man, is clear like water, of course that it's the same, if you don't have one of the requirement of something, you are not able to use it. In the research of Orochimaru, he discovered that he needed a suitable body to use the Sage Mode, but, he didn't have it, so he's not a user. So your logic would be to remove Sasuke as Sharingan user because he could no longer use it in new body Of course not, that's ridiculous even to say it, of course that we are not going to remove a Sasuke as sharingan user because he had used it a lot of times. In Orochimaru side, Kabuto said that Orochimaru wasn't able to use it and Orochimaru has never been shown using it (and using the argument that yes was shown using it because he uses senjutsu doesn't apply until you settle the Jugo stuff). I insist that Orochimaru can use Sage Mode with his own body without a host Totally correct, but he wasn't shown using it, so, no.  Leo  Hatake  17:28, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wait, so do you agree or disagree that hostless Orochimaru can use Sage Mode? Because if you agree, then I'm clueless why you oppose him getting listed, wasn't seen using isn't an argument, because neither was Tobirama seen using Edo Tensei--Elveonora (talk) 17:30, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * The raw says "But... he hadn't yet found a body that could endure it (Jugo's power)". • Seelentau 愛 議 17:33, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hadn't yet? That means he did find it eventually? Unless I'm having English grammar block at the moment :P--Elveonora (talk) 17:39, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * hadn't yet means that he has not "yet" found a host though he eventually could. Munchvtec (talk) 17:43, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * If Orochimaru didn't find one ever, Kabuto would have used "hasn't found" rather than hadn't, because saying "hadn't found something that could" gives vibe that "he did find it eventually" unless Kabuto used had because he had thought Orochimaru to be dead--Elveonora (talk) 17:47, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * no it doesn't. hadn't means had not while hasn't means has not. their essentially the same word. Munchvtec (talk) 17:49, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ugh, I'm not arguing about hasn't = has not and hadn't = had not, but usage of hadn't instead of hasn't--Elveonora (talk) 17:51, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Some people are really persistent. I agree that hostless Orochimaru could learn the Sage Mode because Kabuto imply so, but I disagree listed him because one thing is to know that one person is able to do something in certain circumstance and other thing is listed him being able to use something that is unable to use right now. Like @Muchvtec said, he eventually might will be able to use it, and when that happens, we are going to listed him, otherwise, no. Please, just accept it and stop making arguments related with the "vibe" that deliver the characters. I'm done with this topic. Leo  Hatake  17:52, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * At the time Orochimaru discovered the cave, he did not have a body that could handle the power of Jugo's clan. We don't know if he found one later or not, but that is irrelevant. The only statement about Orochimaru is that he couldn't use it. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:54, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Excuse me my limited knowledge of English then, but the wording "he hadn't found something that could" means he did find something that can later on, unless I failed a class or two :P--Elveonora (talk) 17:57, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Seel, what's the sentence before "he hadn't found body could" part?--Elveonora (talk) 18:11, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Bump, nicely please :P The context is important--Elveonora (talk) 10:28, September 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * @elveo, hadn't means he had not found one. though i agree he could use sage mode he just simply "had not". Munchvtec (talk) 11:55, September 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * The meaning of had not is dependent on the previous sentence, because the way it's placed in that sentence alone gives it meaning that he hadn't found a body before he actually did later on, word order and context are important in English.--Elveonora (talk) 13:42, September 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think he atleast "sage" by being able utilise senchakra/ Rage gtx (talk) 14:14, September 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Pretty please Seel? All the sentences in relation to Orochimaru and Sagehood :P--Elve Talk Page 13:17, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * um...wow you must really want this to happen elveo. ive "never" seen you beg lol. but anyways yeah please seel-san. Munchvtec (talk) 13:20, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * There's only what I said above. Also, you won't change your opinion anyway. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:22, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * We can't seem to come to a consensus, so what do we do?--Neffyarious (talk) 14:51, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Found the full dialogue myself... Kabuto indeed says there that Orochimaru wanted to master it but needed a body which he didn't have, so according to Kabuto, Orochimaru isn't a user. But then again, I think Kabuto is wrong, but that's just me. I don't see how someone who can't use Sage Mode can absorb Sage Mode, mold Senjutsu chakra and not turn into stone, but whatever--Elve Talk Page 15:07, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because Sage Mode isn't a requirement of senjutsu chakra. Madara didn't have it, Obito didn't have it, Naruto used Six Paths Senjutsu in place of it (you can see he lacks the toad markings around his eyes), Jūgo's entire clan uses Sage Transformation, animals don't enter any mode whatsoever, as Fukasaku pointed out, they are already part of nature and use senjutsu naturally, and anyone with a curse mark (Anko, Sasuke, etc.) uses senjutsu through it. There are many ways for humans to preform senjutsu. Sage Mode is not, will not, and never has been the requirement. It is simply a heightened transformation that some users of Senjutsu can use to bolster their physical capabilities even further. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 15:29, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except humans are animals in Naruto too, Fukasaku says so.--Elve Talk Page 16:02, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not to mention the moment Naruto managed to balance energies into Senjutsu chakra, he entered Sage Mode, without being aware that he did so, therefore no special activation, it just happens. There's nothing more to it than Senjutsu chakra--Elve Talk Page 10:28, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Figured I'd point out that when Orochimaru de-activates Kabuto's Sage Mode by draining the chakra through his hand, his hand takes on the same cracked quality as Sage Mode Kabuto's skin. Don't know if that is significant.
 * Also as mentioned above, Kabuto says that the only reason that Orochimaru did not use Sage Mode was because his host body was too weak, that means that if he had a proper body he could use Sage Mode. We list Guruguru as a user of Mayfly purely because he is a White Zetsu, even though he has never used it, we list Sharingan as one of Kakashi's Kekki Genki, despite the fact that he no longer possess it, so why can't we list Orochimaru as a user of Sage Mode?--Neffyarious (talk) 11:34, September 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's what I think, his host body that he had at the time limited him. I'm 99,99% positive Senjutsu equals Sage Mode no matter what anyone says, because that's exactly what is said and shown during Naruto's toad training, so Orochimaru's real body can use it, while his host bodies can't. In fact the reason the host bodies start to reject him after a while may be because they can't handle Senjutsu chakra.--Elve Talk Page 12:18, September 27, 2014 (UTC)

Well, I guess that since Orochimaru utilises Senjutsu he can definitely be given the classification of a Sage. Also, Jugo should be given the Sage classification. But we still have not come to any conclusion as to whether or not to add Orochimaru to the Sage Mode page.--Neffyarious (talk) 04:21, October 5, 2014 (UTC)

Seems people can't come to an agreement about what being a "Sage" includes. Also people really should give themselves a favor and re-read/re-watch the whole Naruto Senjutsu training part, where it's made obvious that Senjutsu Chakra = Sage Mode. Quoting Fukasaku: "too little natural energy, Sage Techniques won't work, too much and you start turning into a toad" then all Naruto does is manage to perfectly balance the 3 energies, with Fukasaku proclaiming that eye pigment is a sign of a true Sage. Naruto falls down from the pillar but doesn't hurt himself and Fukasaku explains that he is in Sage Mode, that's why it didn't hurt. There's no activation, Senjutsu Chakra makes you be in Sage Mode, that's why it's freaking called a mode. Further proven when Fukasaku explains how Senjutsu Chakra differs from ordinary chakra. He attributes to it what we do attribute to Sage Mode, pretty much saying Senjutsu Chakra in body = Sage Mode--Elve Talk Page 10:01, October 5, 2014 (UTC)

Jugo
Is there any reason why Jugo is not added as a user? Considering Sage Transformation has been added as a derived technique of Sage Mode so there's really no reason he shouldn't be. Victory9000 (talk) 22:04, October 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, you got it wrong, man. Sage Transformation is NOT derived from Sage Mode. Yes, both use senjutsu chakra, but what Jugo transforms into is because of his clan's unnamed ability. They can passively absorb natural energy. A Sage Mode user is trained in absorbing natural energy, for Jugo, it was a genetic trait. Plus, if you want to get technical, IMO, Sage Mode is a type of Sage Transformation, given that those in Sage Mode have the limitation of having to stand still to absorb, while Jugo's clan passively absorb natural energy. Jugo is a Sage Transformation user, not a Sage Mode user. Sage Mode users have to train and learn (and have red markings around their eyes) how to absorb natural energy, that wasn't the case with Jugo and others who used Orochimaru's Juinjutsu. • WindStar7125   WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 22:10, October 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry Windstar, but you've got it wrong. Sage Transformation is Sage Mode with x-men fluids. And Sage Mode isn't Sage Transformation, because there are no Jugo Clan's fluids. If what you say were true, Kabuto wouldn't be a Sage Mode user, because he uses Jugo's way.--Elve Talk Page 12:00, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * I never said Sage Mode being derived from Sage Transformation was true, I said "In my opinion (IMO)." Give me a break, man. Lol. • WindStar7125   WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 12:09, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Also, Kabuto was trained under Sage Mode by the White Sage Snake. He used Jugo's way to eliminate the setback of having to stand still like a normal Sage Mode. • WindStar7125   WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 12:12, October 7, 2014 (UTC)

During Naruto's training at frog mountain, all Sage Mode is was explained to be mixing physical energy, spiritual energy and natural energy, molding Senjutsu Chakra, that's a manga fact. By that definition any Senjutsu Chakra user would be Sage Mode user and Jugo uses Senjutsu. I'm yet to see any evidence contrary to that--Elve Talk Page 12:15, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * There is a reason why this wiki has Sage Mode and Sage Transformation as two different things. Yes, both use Senjutsu chakra, but Sasuke isn't considered a Sage due to his Curse Mark Transformation. • WindStar7125   WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 12:21, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Lets not bring the iffy label "sage" into this. This is about Sage Mode. Using canon, can you disprove it being anything else but a state of body empowered by Senjutsu Chakra ? I don't think so, but be my guest--Elve Talk Page 12:26, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sage Mode is the intentional absorbing of natural energy and finding a balance, only changing slightly, with the ability to perform Sage Art techniques. Sage Transformation is the passive absorbing of natural energy that is unbalanced and can lead to inconsistent transformations, more wild body transformations, with no sign of being able to preform Sage Arts.
 * You may wish to ignore it, but there is a reason why Jiraiya and Naruto are considered "Sages" while Jugo is not. Being a sage means they can transform into Sage Mode at will and get specific techniques to use as well. Jugo's Sage Transformations essentially just give him the passive ability to just have natural energy, I have yet to see him actually weaponize it in any way.
 * Tl;Dr; Sage Mode and Sage Transformation are similar but have a noticable difference between the two, one being on purpose thus making them a sage, the other uncontrolled making them "mutating monster man".--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 13:09, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * So Kabuto isn't a Sage Mode user because his absorption is unintentional by your judgement. And no, Sage Transformation isn't the passive absorbing of natural energy that is unbalanced. Sage Transformation is what happens when Jugo molds Senjutsu Chakra, not the kekkei genkai itself and also has nothing to do with imbalance. Even if Jugo were to perfectly balance the Senjutsu Chakra, he still would use Sage Transformation, it occurs because of bodily fluids in his body.

Not to mention Jiraiya's Senjutsu Chakra wasn't perfectly balanced and he still was a Sage Mode user. I'm quite sure that if Jugo were to go to magic animal kingdom place and be taught Sage Art, he could use them, it's not like you learn Sage Art from your arse.--Elve Talk Page 13:21, October 7, 2014 (UTC)

@Ulti, I don't think your grasp of some of the terminology and concepts is correct, but thanks for your contribution anyway.--Elve Talk Page 13:48, October 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you, TU3. • WindStar7125   WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 16:51, October 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * 1)Edits go at the end WindStar7125.
 * 2) Don't get smug with me Elvenora. I know exactly what I'm talking about, I'm just not making sweeping assumptions to make myself look smart. Jugo's passively absorbing natural energy and transforms into wild and out there forms. That isn't Sage Mode. Naruto purposely gathers natural energy and balances to the point where he doesn't die. That is Sage Mode. The two are similar but not one in the same, so you can now stop going into every discussion trying your damnest to make it so. Because damn if you want them to be the same so bad, why aren't you arguing that the two articles be merged and make Jugo a sage? Exactly.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 17:04, October 8, 2014 (UTC)

Merger would be wrong, because non-Jugo junkies aren't using Sage Transformation, but I wouldn't exactly oppose a section in Sage Mode article about Sage Transformation, just like we mention Six Paths Sage Technique in Chakra Mode etc.--Elve Talk Page 17:33, October 8, 2014 (UTC)

Really, TU3? I've seen many who don't put it at the end... but I guess I got caught. Oh well, I'm doing a good job of making a fool of myself on this topic, lol. • WindStar7125     17:55, October 8, 2014 (UTC)

Ma and Pa
Do they really use Sage Mode? I realise they thought Naruto how to do it and all, but don't all summons use senjutsu to begin with? When humans use Sage Mode, they change their appearances, etc. It's an actual mode. For summons it appears to be just their default means of combat, and we know senjutsu are harmonious but not necessarily mutually inclusive.--Reliops (talk) 14:38, November 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not this again... let me ask you: why shouldn't they?--Elve Talk Page 14:44, November 2, 2014 (UTC)

Related Jutsu
Someone should add the Six Paths Sage Mode as related Jutsu, thanks :)--Keeptfighting (talk) 04:01, November 29, 2015 (UTC)

Another sage mode?
Naruto Shippuden Episode 169, Naruto is facing the real Pain and his eyes are the same as in Tailed Beast Sage Mode, and Kurama's chakra is present, but he is not in his enhanced tailed beast mode. BrentNewland (talk) 23:24, February 13, 2016 (UTC)

Kabuto's Image 2
Would this work better for Kabuto? Unlike the current, he is staring directly at the camera and possesses all four horns. It'd match up better with Naruto and Hashirama's images as well. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 20:44, March 25, 2016 (UTC)
 * Looks more suitable to me. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 21:07, March 25, 2016 (UTC)
 * Ditto. --SSJ2AJB (talk) 21:08, March 25, 2016 (UTC)
 * As for me, looks a bit better than the current one. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 21:37, March 25, 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm all for you the proposal image too. --Rai 水 (talk) 23:11, March 25, 2016 (UTC)

Kabuto's sage mode
As some might know, I translated Kabuto's words about Jugo's clan and the sage transformation some time ago. In chapter 579, Kabuto says "Immediately, Orochimaru-sama tried to gain that power... but... he did not yet have the body to withstand it... So... just like me, not even he could attain the perfect sage method!". Could someone please provide the VIZ translation of that part? • Seelentau 愛 議 12:28, April 22, 2016 (UTC)