Talk:Tailed Beast Rasengan

Status
Is this really necessary? That was merely a Rasengan made with tailed beast chakra, this is more towards the Vermilion Rasengan we long ago incorporated the Rasengan page than it is to a new technique. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:21, December 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think this is needed either.--Deva 27 (talk) 01:23, December 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think it is needed either, it was a normal rasengan with a different chakra source. S im A nt 01:24, December 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Have you all forgotten how much Kishimoto loves to make new Rasengan with completely uninspired names? ~SnapperTo 03:54, December 3, 2010 (UTC)

SimAnt, if you don't like it, please refrain from taking the picture off the page...

I think it does need it's own page. It's completely different from the normal Rasengan. It's got a different chakra source, different way of forming it, and it's not a Tailed Beast Bomb like the other Tailed Beasts use. I think it's good to have a page so it doesn't get confused with the other ones (: SusanooUnleashed (talk) 04:16, December 3, 2010 (UTC)

I agree, because does a normal Rasengan have this type of formation? Nope. A normal Rasengan uses the concentrated spiral, now this Rasengan just forms into a compacted ball, no rotations needed.

Oops, I was wrong. It DOES need chakra rotation :P CDi-FailsCDi-Fails (talk) 04:42, December 3, 2010 (UTC)

Would just like to mention that tailed beast bomb can only be performed in biju mode. RASENGAN is a jutsu that took its concept from the biju ball. Bee said that it was as if minato made this jutsu for his son. SOOOO naruto can perform this tech without having to go into biju mode. THIS IS NARUTO'S WAY OF DOING THE BIJU BOMB. we should add this on the page....

The Vermilion Rasengan and Tailed Beast Ball Rasengan are two different jutsus. The latter also doesn't look like a normal Rasengan. I think the justu's earned a high enough rank to get it's own page. When the Fourth Data book comes out it'll probably get its name and rank. That's if Kishi-sensei doesn't give it's actual name later in the manga even. Sparxs77 (talk) 08:26, December 3, 2010 (UTC)

Isn't there a page dedicated to all the rasengan? I really wish people would wait before they go creating pages... The technique was barely even created yet. This really is the pat of manga release that i detest --Cerez365 (talk) 11:38, December 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * I have to say that I don't think this technique deserves its own page. From what I can gather, it is nothing more than a simple Rasengan with unexpected results. Naruto may use those chakra arms to create it, but we don't consider his Kage Bunshin-created Rasengan to be different from the normal one. He may use the Kyūbi's chakra, but that doesn't make it fundamentally different either. It should be mentioned on the Rasengan page, but an own page is too much for now. —ShounenSuki (talk 11:41, December 3, 2010 (UTC)

With all respect said now, if this page gets deleted, then Wind Style: Rasengan should also be deleted. Same fundemental basics isn't it. THAT is also just a Rasengan infused with Wind Chakra. This is a Rasengan infused with Kyuubi chakra. It's a pretty huge step in the manga. It even says at the end of the chapter that it's a new jutsu. We keep all the non-canon game Rasengans (examples include True Rasengan, Three Tailed Rasengan), but we shoot down the actual canon that comes along. I just don't think it's fair that we keep certain stuff, just because we feel like it and then discard other CANON stuff!! Sparxs77 (talk) 18:55, December 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Wind Release: Rasengan has nature manipulation added to the mix, which does indeed make it fundamentally different from the Rasengan. It is also easier to categorise on the wiki when it has its own article. We keep the game variations because they are treated differently in the games. this Rasengan was considered nothing more than a Rasengan. —ShounenSuki (talk 22:16, December 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * End of chapter 519 (according to the Mangastream translation) it states "new jutsu." I hate to repeat myself, but this Rasengan looks entirely different than a regular Rasengan!! A regular Rasengan resembles typhoon. This new Rasengan resembles a Menacing Ball. This will be something entirely new, because Naruto will not be able to consume this. It'll be his own unique jutsu unlike other Jinchuriki's Menacing Ball. It deserves recognition. On Sasuke's page the Shield of Amaterasu is the same as Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi (Shape Transformation of Amaterasu) and yet that has never been considered for deletion. That is why I stated above: If we do one thing on one page, it should be done on all the pages. Sparxs77 (talk) 12:57, December 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Sparxs, the end of chapter 519 on Mangastream says "Naruto begins a new technique..." signifying that he is getting ready to create a new one. That doesn't change the fact that this was simply a Rasengan, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't matter what it looks like. Naruto wasn't trying anything different with it, so its just the regular technique. Using the Shield of Amaterasu and Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi as an example doesn't make sense either, since they are different techniques. In one, Sasuke simply sets Susanoo on fire with Amaterasu to protect himself, and with the other, he actually shapes the flames into spikes to use for attack. Those are two completely different uses, and the second was given a name. Naruto called this technique the Rasengan when he was forming it. Its the same thing! I don't even see how there is still an argument here. All of the information on this page is located on Rasengan's page too, so this page is redundant. ---Ten Tailed Fox talk page 15:15, December 5, 2010 (UTC)

Ten Tailed Fox, telling me that my example doesn't make sense is the biggest slap in the face I got. You've just decided that this page isn't necessary and when people comes to the front with evidence, why it is an important page, then it "doesn't make sense!" Whatever, do what you want... Delete the page. Obviously the lesser contributor's contributions and facts are not taken into account. Sparxs77 (talk) 07:21, December 6, 2010 (UTC)

Probably the best idea, we should just put this picture on Naruto's main page under the new information added last week. What this article details is identical to what Naruto's main page is saying, so we might as well show his "new way of forming his rasengan" on the main page and delete this article until more information is revealed about the 8:2 ratio rasengan. Shikamaru1994 (talk) 23:29, December 7, 2010 (UTC)Shikamaru1994

Revival
I know this seems pointless reviving this, but I think we should revisit this discussion again, since I agree with a few people above that this just seems like a more denser version of the Vermillion Rasengan and the fact that it's just the Rasengan being formed from some other source of Chakra. --Speysider (Talk Page) 13:11, May 25, 2012 (UTC)

Normal Rasengan
ShounenSuki is right. When Naruto was forming this technique, he wasn't adding anything new to it. He was just trying to form the regular Rasengan with his Nine-Tails Chakra Arms instead of Shadow Clones. It unexpectedly took on the form of the Tailed Beast Ball. Βee further proves this by saying that Rasengan is essentially the same as the Menacing ball because it uses the same fundamental steps to form it. This technique is nothing more than a normal Rasengan that had unexpected results. Until Naruto gives it a new name or it shows a fundamentally different use from the normal Rasengan, this should be merged with the normal Rasengan page. ---Ten Tailed Fox talk page 16:50, December 3, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe we should just keep this page like it is, and wait for more info. Anyways, we have already mentioned it is incomplete. Even so, wouldn't you call rasengan an incomplete move??? it only had shape transformation, no nature.


 * I think its pretty dumb to keep it up, actually. All the information on this article has been added to Rasengan's article, making this article redundant. Furthermore, as I said, this is a normal Rasengan, so it belongs on the normal Rasengan's page. This article, in my opinion, is unneeded. ---Ten Tailed Fox talk page 22:03, December 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * It isn't a 'normal Rasengan', hell its practically called a new technique at the end of the chapter. And its using Black and White chakra-how isn't that fundamentally different to the normal Rasengan? --NaruHina fan (talk) 20:24, December 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with what NaruHina says -- Leodix   |   My Talk   |   Contributions   20:33, December 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * That's just the sig, the users' actual name is SuperSaiyaMan. And what the chapter said is that Naruto's is beginning to use make a new technique. When Naruto started making this, he calls it Rasengan. We've seen many techniques much more similar to Rasengan be given different names, I find it unlikely that this will change all of a sudden. Like mentioned before, this is merely a Rasengan made with a different chakra source, and we never considered Shadow Clone-aided Rasengan as a different technique, same applies here. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:50, December 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * This technique Naruto showed was clearly a normal Rasengan. The new technique will be one that actually works in Rikudō Mode. The final page of chapter 519 say and the preview for chapter 520 says . Both clearly indicate Naruto doesn't actually have a new jutsu yet. —ShounenSuki (talk 00:11, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

Delete
In my opinion, we should keep the article until we have more information that may appear on the next chapter. -- Leodix   |   My Talk   |   Contributions   20:01, December 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Still, keeping the delete tag directs people to take part in the discussion. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:50, December 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * There's always the chance to redirect this page to the Rasengan page and add the details there and only reinstate this page if enough information is provided that would make it worthy to have it's own separate page, due to the fact that not enough notable information is available at the moment, and is an alternative to deletion. -Adv193 (talk) 01:12, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

Well, Chapter 520 calls it a new technique, and Naruto even gives it a new name, so I say we keep this article! --CDi-Fails (talk) 03:58, December 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * I can also agree now. Naruto has named it and he has also noted differences from the regular Rasengan (weight). ---Ten Tailed Fox talk page 04:39, December 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * The technique we were shown in 519 is still different from the technique we were shown in 520, though. The difference lies in Naruto trying to balance the black and white chakra. —ShounenSuki (talk 12:01, December 10, 2010 (UTC)

Why not just put it under the normal rasengan page as, "new form of rasengan" or something like that.Elvesyou--JS 14:06, December 10, 2010 (UTC)

Ratio simplification
I know Kishimoto mentioned the chakra ratio as 8:2, and I have no big issues with it, but is there some significant reason for us not to simplify it as 4:1? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:09, December 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's not really necessary in my opinion. it wouldn't add much and might actually cause some minor confusion. Let's just keep it the way it is. —ShounenSuki (talk 22:39, December 10, 2010 (UTC)

Plan on what to do
Let's just keep the page, then once Naruto completes the new technique, we can update the page to make it official info on the actual COMPLETE version.

Is it safe to say that it is a short range technique. Rasengan is a short range but the tailed beast bonb is not so shouldn't we wait to see the characteristics that this jutsu will adapt. This jutsu could end up being like rasen shuriken witch can be thrown. --Rigoberto60 (talk) 16:11, December 20, 2010 (UTC) You know how Bee said this is made in the exact same way as the Tailed-Beast Ball, so maybe it's attack is the same as a Tailed-Beast ball but a lot harder to make. So it could be Long-Range. We don't know yet though we'll just have to wait.--Shabih (talk) 19:47, January 31, 2011 (UTC)

Will Naruto ever complete the technique? He may do it to attack faster, or may not do it as he can do the tailed beast ball.

It's all up to KishimotoUndominanthybrid (talk) 17:33, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

Yang
In the Yang Release page it says: "When Naruto was in Nine-Tails Chakra Mode, Yamato's Wood Release totems reacted to the Yang chakra's life-giving properties and matured into full-grown trees."

Since it has already been said that Minato sealed the Kyubi's Yang chakra inside Naruto and since it has been proved by the above statement that Naruto's covered in Yang chakra when in his new transformation, could we consider the new Rasengan to be a Yang release technique?Nawirama13 (talk) 20:43, December 30, 2010 (UTC)

Since we don't fully known what Bee meant by the black and white chakra ratio, we're avoiding that at the moment. Plus, if Yin and Yang turn out to be something that is a general skill, it isn't listed except for special cases, and we'll have to see if this is one. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:52, December 30, 2010 (UTC)

I guess the only way to solve all these dilemmas is a 4th databook. Sigh...Nawirama13 (talk) 21:06, December 30, 2010 (UTC)

We don't know yet if it is a yang release, but it probably is going to be. The Black and White may be Yin and Yang chakra... but Naruto doesn't have the Nine-Tails' Yin chakra--Shabih (talk) 19:53, January 31, 2011 (UTC)

Well, Naruto has his own Yin chakra to draw from, instead of using the lack Kyubi Yin chakra he could supplant it with his.Umishiru (talk) 20:30, January 31, 2011 (UTC)

He can't because he has to temporarily shelve out his chakra to use the Nine-Tails Chakra Mode.--Shabih (talk) 21:25, January 31, 2011 (UTC)

Yin and Yang essentially mean Dark and Light. Black and White. Tailed beasts are essentially made of yin and yang chakra. And consdering the tailed beast bomb is 8 dark and 2 light. It is a Yin-Yang Release technique. What else could killer bee have meant. There is yet another type of chakra called black and white chakra. No, its Yin and Yang chakra. Please dont get this confused with Yin and Yang energies. Basically Yin and Yang Chakra. Is Dark and Light. Yin and Yang energies. Which form the foundation of basic chakra. Is spiritual and physical. There is two different types of Yin and Yang in Naruto.

So yeah. Tailed Beast bomb is a Yin-Yang Release technique.

Yeah... no. The terms used to describe the chakra qualities in the Tailed Beast Rasengan were black and white, positive and negative. Not Yin and Yang. Just because those terms can be associated with one of the principles, it doesn't mean they are. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:29, May 28, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah. If you need both yin and yang chakra to make the bij bomb, then how did the fox do it with only its yang chakra. Think man37.40.240.109 (talk) 08:55, March 27, 2012 (UTC)S.K.
 * Yeah, actually friend, the chakra was called, and it was never referred to as Yin and Yang chakra. It's commonly misplaced as such simply because people believe Yin and Yang has to be black and white.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 09:47, March 27, 2012 (UTC)

Chakra Arms
Should they be mentioned as a pearent jutsu? We don't list Shadow Clone Technique as a parent for Rasenshuriken. Naruto uses arms because he can't craete Rasengan by himself.--LeafShinobi (talk) 21:30, January 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * I see where you're coming from. Not sure what to do. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:40, January 21, 2011 (UTC)


 * Consider this: Chakra Arms is technically not a jutsu. It's merely using demon chakra in place of arms, tails, entire body.--TheUltimate3 ~Aspect of Wiki ~ 21:50, January 21, 2011 (UTC)

You should keep it,it has different forming,different color and different power

Fox Mode Rasengan
Can you tell me how Naruto can do a normal Rasengan in his Fox Mode? When he tries to form the Rasengan for the first time in this mode, it's the Tailed Beast Bomb. But in the latest chapter, he can do a normal Rasengan in his Fox Mode. Shouldn't it be the Tailed Beast Bomb again? 24.129.58.16 (talk) 23:38, July 7, 2011 (UTC)Joey


 * The Tailed Beast Rasengan is trying to mold the black and white chakra of a demon into a Rasengan, as he is incapable of forming Tailed Beast Ball on his own. All the Rasengans are just elaborate normal Rasengans, probably using the cloak to spin the his normal chakra without his hands.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 00:23, July 8, 2011 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken, he tried to do a "normal" Rasengan when he found out he couldn't do the Tailed Beast Bomb. When he tried that "normal" Rasengan, it turned out to the Tailed Beast Bomb.24.129.58.16 (talk) 01:31, July 8, 2011 (UTC)Joey

let the creators do it however they want they made it---SuperSaiyanKrillin (talk) 16:30, July 8, 2011 (UTC)

As of Chapter 554...
Should this be deleted or merged somehow due to the fact that Naruto calls it the Tailed Beast Ball in the latest chapter? Questionaredude (talk) 02:37, September 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't take his statement to be literal. We should wait for the next chapter.--Deva 27 02:40, September 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * In the following chapter, Dodai comments it's the same TBB as the one used by 8-tails. --109.92.185.169 (talk) 00:38, December 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * All TBB are the same... what's your point?--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 00:45, December 17, 2011 (UTC)

Official name?
I don't think "Tailed Beast Rasengan" is the official name of this technique. If I am not mistaken, it is referred only once by a name, but as "Tailed Beast Ball" by Naruto at the end of chapter 554. --178.223.168.189 (talk) 21:42, January 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * You are thinking of a different, but similar attack, the Tailed Beast Ball. ROBO731   (Talk)  Mangekyō_Sharingan_Itachi.svg  22:07, January 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * You may be right, but it's still isn't referred by this name. Naruto simply called it "Rasengan". --178.223.168.189 (talk) 22:10, January 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * In the chapter following that one, the one with him trying to do it in a colour page, he calls it "Tailed Beast Rasengan", look in the raw if you want to. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:13, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

(E/C)mAnd in the next chapter he calls it "Tailed Beast Rasengan". Skitts (talk) 22:14, January 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * My bad. I'm sorry for bothering you. --178.223.168.189 (talk) 22:16, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

Infobox Picture
I think we can use one of those two for the anime pic : or  --EzioLover (talk) 09:48, May 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * We should really wait for a scene where Naruto is also in shot fully, like in the manga image. I have noticed that you seem to love uploading a ton of images to replace existing images and it's a little annoying when people begin "hogging" the image uploads. -.- --Speysider (Talk Page) 09:58, May 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * Note, there is no such thing has "hogging" image uploads. Only thing I'm going to add on the matter, save the reminder that the Declaration is still in effect and all the rules imply...--TheUltimate3 Uzumaki Symbol.svg (talk) 12:17, May 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * Draw in by Ulti's hint, I'd also like to add my two cents. The manga image is preferable in this case. I can't shake the feeling that the anime messed it up somehow...--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 13:04, May 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * I also seemed to think that as well. Let's just hope they fix it in next week's episode! :D --Speysider (Talk Page) 13:06, May 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * That's just you guys are just being paranoid lol. The only noticeable difference is the style in which Naruto glows (and those giant gorilla chakra hands, but that has nothing to do with the jutsu (-_-)\(^_^ )--TheUltimate3 Uzumaki Symbol.svg (talk) 13:08, May 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * On a completely unrelated note, I am in love with Japanese texting emotes. The thing people come up with...d(^_^o)--TheUltimate3 Uzumaki Symbol.svg (talk) 13:09, May 25, 2012 (UTC)

Heh an anon beat ya'll to the punch. The image shows the rasengan, is properly rationaled and the like and it falls under the Declaration. Beat to the punch ha ha.\(^0^)/--TheUltimate3 (talk) 13:13, May 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * All he did was add an image that someone suggested here, which I'm not fond of using anyway. I suggest we don't add any anime images on this article until we see next week's episode incase a better image does appear there. Can we agree on that at least ? --Speysider (Talk Page) 13:15, May 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, cannot. Image was changed to an anime image that fit with the original image. Everything about the image was valid on a technical level, with the only difference being the how users feel. Cannot back out of it now, not when everything has been going so well so far.--TheUltimate3 Uzumaki Symbol.svg (talk) 13:20, May 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * For added fun, look at Cerez and my discussion from yesterday via talk pages. You'll see what I mean with the above.--TheUltimate3 Uzumaki Symbol.svg (talk) 13:21, May 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Can you not talk in riddles ? -.-. Also, if users don't like it, we're going to end up having an endless debate about the image we should use, since last I checked the community has to be in agreement to the image and a couple of users have shown their opinion as being against the anime image. --Speysider (Talk Page) 13:25, May 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * No riddles. Fine, you're boring (T_T). Anywho if theres going to be a discussion it's more or less should be how the Declaration is not fair. In fact, it isn't. It was designed in a way to punish people for not having discussions that everyone can agree to and ending amicably, and not devolve into pissing matches (yes I love that phrase). The conversion of manga images to anime images is supposed to enforce that, to show that things can be a lot worse than having to fight back and forth when someone could just randomly drop an image in and by rules it cannot be changed. This way people will be more inclined to have a civil discussion that will lead to a mutually beneficial conclusion.
 * In Short:The goal is the change how you think, and do it in a way that you will actually learn something, instead of waving my giant ban hammer and force things to come to a close.--TheUltimate3 Uzumaki Symbol.svg (talk) 13:30, May 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Let me just quote something you posted on my talkpage:
 * "And thus you've learned an important lesson: Not every image can be changed. That image was a colored manga with no true anime alternative. Thus it should not be changed.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 12:11, May 24, 2012 (UTC)"


 * You clearly said there is no true anime depiction for this image and that we should wait til next week's episode. Why are you contradicting yourself ?
 * In other matters: I did not start this discussion. So if there's anyone to blame for starting this discussion, it's EzioLover for making the image change suggestion in the first place. This is the only time where a discussion is more beneficial than just randomly dropping an image in, because there's a split as some people don't like how the animators depicted it and some who think the anime depiction is fine. I'm with the people who think the manga image is more preferably here since I just feel there's something wrong with the anime depiction. Other users are free to drop their 2c here. --Speysider (Talk Page) 13:39, May 25, 2012 (UTC)

Why does it seem like you believe I'm always blaming you for stuff? (Don't answer this question, think of your answer and reflect on it yourself.) And this discussion is no different from every other discussion we've had like this in the past, from Konan, to the tailed beasts to hell I even think all of the Part I characters. Actually that's not true, every other discussion didn't have the Declaration over it's head. Hence, why I'm even here, explaining things about an article of truly little significance. I will admit, I jumped the gun. I don't watch the anime, so when the image of Naruto not having a Rasengan in hand appeared, I assumed that was all that was shown. Today I know the Rasengan did indeed exist, and it worked thus it fell under the Declaration.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 13:44, May 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Since you don't watch the anime, it might be wise not to get involved in discussions like this, unless you are reminding us of the Declaration. ;) Just my 2c though. --Speysider (Talk Page) 13:51, May 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Why on earth should I not take part in discussions that have proven in the past to be very amusing?(^_^)--TheUltimate3 Uzumaki Symbol.svg (talk) 13:53, May 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * The anime image is fine. Why do we need a full shot of Naruto preforming the technique? We see the orb in his hands and it looks, for the most part, exactly how the manga depicts it. I watch the anime and read the manga and the only real issue I see is the way Naruto glows and the size of his chakra arms and that really isn't an issue that's going away anytime soon. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:54, May 25, 2012 (UTC)

Chapter 598
^Isn't this the Tailed Beast Rasengan!??^

I think we can now merge TBB and TBR cause it seems to be the same--Elveonora (talk) 14:12, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

Thus creating a paradox "_"--Elveonora (talk) 14:13, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

That is a bijudama. Read the next page. -- The Goblin  14:14, August 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * It just got bigger, I don't think it's the same.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:17, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

Are we really sure that Tailed Beast Rasengan isn't just a close-range version of the Bomb? We are yet to see Naruto using a "TBR" and in the case of a mini-tailed beast ball, he used it without Tailed Beast Mode, so I dunno if Kishi has confused himself or we are confused--Elveonora (talk) 14:44, August 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought when we learned how Minato created the Rasengan, we realised that it's just a small Tailed Beast Ball. This is why the formation et al will be really similar but it doesn't mean they're the same technique. Tailed Beast Rasengan was named outside of simply calling it the Tailed Beast Ball, more than likely beause of how it's produced and nothing more.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:53, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

But it's produced the same way as Naruto did with the mini-tailed beast bomb, using arms, 8:2 ratio and shit, the only difference being usage, like Rasenshuriken was at first melee, now it's ranged--Elveonora (talk) 14:55, August 22, 2012 (UTC)