Talk:Tobi

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Mokuton and Immortality
Finally this chapter made clear some doubts about Madara's abilities. Since the Wood Style has been pretty much shown as having extreme life-giving properties it explains how Madara managed to survive all these years...it also pretty much explains that curious fact of how Madara was able to regrow his blown off right arm on two-times and why did his right arm bleed that white liquid instead of blood. Now a question. How do we add that to his abilities page. Darksusanoo (talk) 15:43, June 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * I rather wait until we know what exactly the raw says. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:57, June 30, 2011 (UTC)

Mokuton does not in any way allow the user to regrow arms, or at least was never stated to be able to do so. That would imply some sort of healing factor, which if anyone other than Hashirama possessed it, it would be Yamato. That white liquid you speak of most likely has something to do with White Zetsu, although that's just speculation at the present. And when was Mokuton shown "to give extreme life-giving properties"? The closest thing to what you're speaking of that I can remember is Rikudo Mode Naruto's chakra changing Yamato's wooden totems into trees. Now maybe the combination of both Uchiha and Senju cells in Madara may be the reason for this (Tsunade makes some mention of this in the recent release), but again, it's speculation for the time being. Skitts (talk) 03:18, July 3, 2011 (UTC)

How can it be speculation? Tsunade, who knows a lot about Hashirama, said that if Madara harvested the cells that he could very well be immortal. That's why Madara has lived so long.24.129.58.16 (talk) 13:50, July 19, 2011 (UTC)NamikazeNaruto

Well we seem to forget a few more stand-out examples about the life-giving properties: the Hashirama clone, the Zetsu Army, and possibly the original Zetsu himself. The Mokuton is based on Yang chakra, which as stated by Madara while talking about the Rikudo Sennin, is the physical energy that gives life. There's also the fact that the Yang chakra was the gift given to the Sage's younger son. In the same way that the eyes and Yin Chakra of the elder son gave way to the abilities of the Uchiha clan...namely the Sharingan, maybe the Yang powers that the Sage's younger son had gave way to the Mokuton in Hashirama. Otherwise why would Madara go through the battle of the Valley of the End against the extremely powerful First Hokage, sustain injuries which afected him for the next decades if it were not for him to colect a power related to the Sage? Out of all kinds of elemental chakra, i have yet to see one that could create living beings like the Mokuton. Darksusanoo (talk) 15:07, July 19, 2011 (UTC)

This might be a stupid question but I wanted to ask how can Madara be immortal/prolong his life with the 1st Hokage's cells when the 1st Hokage died?24.129.58.16 (talk) 22:13, August 2, 2011 (UTC)NarutoHokage
 * Hashirama died in battle. The descendants of the Senju Clan Ancestor inherited his life-force which allows them to live long lives. Mito Uzumaki is a prime example of this.--22:20, August 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * Longevity doesn't help against kunai. —ShounenSuki (talk 22:20, August 2, 2011 (UTC)

Then Madara really isn't immortal right? Since he can die in battle.24.129.58.16 (talk) 22:31, August 2, 2011 (UTC)NarutoHokage
 * Yes, Tsunade didn't mean immortal in the sense of not being able to be killed.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 22:38, August 2, 2011 (UTC)

It's confusing then cause when I think of immortal, I think of not dying. But why did Tsunade say "We have no idea how to beat him" if he can die by a kunai? And, how did you know the 1st died in battle?24.129.58.16 (talk) 22:52, August 2, 2011 (UTC)NarutoHokage


 * She said that because his abilities are still predominantly unknown and such. Madara isn't immortal in the sense that he can't be killed, just that he can live a really long time in his current condition. They would call Mito immortal too in the same sense. As for Hashirama dying in battle it's in his article or in the First Shinobi World War's article unless i'm distorting the information with his brother's.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 23:00, August 2, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks but i don't think the 1st Hokage was in that war. Why would the 2nd Hokage be named when the 1st was alive and strong? Unless he was way older than his brother.

@Ilnarutoanime; There is a lab full of Sharingan. Sharingan can be transplanted into anyone as we've seen. But like I said, no need to jump to conclusions and this isn't a place for speculations. Let's just wait and see. It's better to be correct the incorrect xD
 * It's stated in his article that he died at some point shortly after the founding of the village and before the before the first war. So i'm not too sure about the war bit anymore since we apparently don't know exactly how.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 23:57, August 2, 2011 (UTC)

So we don't really know how he died?


 * We don't know how Hashirama died. It's still unknown. KiumaruHamachi (talk) 00:07, August 3, 2011 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi


 * The first databooks states that:
 * "However, this was a time when the world was at war. At the same time the village began to flourish, he lost his life."
 * It might not state it directly, but there is really no other way to interpret this quote: the First Hokage died in battle, in one of the many wars that were raging during the beginning of the era of hidden villages. —ShounenSuki (talk 00:08, August 3, 2011 (UTC)

Is there a site I can read the databooks? Do databooks ever give information that might change? Like saying Tobi is Madara in one then in a later one change it too Tobi is someone else. Sorry for all the questions. Trying to know everything about Naruto.24.129.58.16 (talk) 00:25, August 3, 2011 (UTC)NarutoHokage.
 * They're normally in Japanese and we generally get our translations from Shounensuki up thur↑. But I don't think Kishimoto would ever be that inconsistent with information.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 00:30, August 3, 2011 (UTC)

So Shounensuki can read Japanese and translate it? Cool

Shounensuki is Narutopedia's Official Japanese Translator.KiumaruHamachi (talk) 00:39, August 3, 2011 (UTC) KiumaruHamachi

That's cool. Wish I could learn.

Please sign your signature with four ~ and you can! All you have to do is go to a book store or search online for japanese learning sights and you can be like this "Hajimamashte. Genki desu ka. " and the answer "Genki desu." (Nice to meet you, how are you?) and (I am fine.) Also, "Anata no o namae wa nanidesu kadesu" answer is "Watoshi wa Hamachi Kiumaru." (What is your name?) answer (My name is Kiumaru Hamachi) --KiumaruHamachi (talk) 01:37, August 3, 2011 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi

Thanks I'll try it and sorry! I forgot. My bad!24.129.58.16 (talk) 01:43, August 3, 2011 (UTC)NarutoHokage

It's okay. But first, start reading every character's (canon or non canon) trivia here on Naruto Wiki. You might learn a thing or two about Japanese. KiumaruHamachi (talk) 01:45, August 3, 2011 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi

Alright I will but that's a lot of characters lol. What's canon though?24.129.58.16 (talk) 01:59, August 3, 2011 (UTC)NarutoHokage

Any character featured in the manga. KiumaruHamachi (talk) 02:01, August 3, 2011 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi

Alright thanks :)

No problem. :) KiumaruHamachi (talk) 02:12, August 3, 2011 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi

Ok...question..how come Madara doesn't have the Wood Release stated in his infobox? He infused and was said to have mastered Hashirama's cells, since he could use a complete version of Izanagi. Danzo who didn't have full control of the First's cells and only had an imperfect Izanagi could still use the Wood Release. Madara who had complete control should be listed as one as well since the Wood Release is a Kekkei Genkai and he infused and attained full control of Hashirama's cells. Opinions? Darksusanoo (talk) 20:41, August 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * I swore I had this conversation before. Until Madara uses the Wood Release, there's no need to add it to his infobox. Having perfect control of Hashirama's cells just means that his life force won't swallow him whole and turn him intoa tree or something. Also, Wood Release is not related to Izanagi, if he stole Tōka's cells he would be able to use Izanagi just the same.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 20:55, August 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * The Izanagi was just an example. Wood release is a Kekkei Genkai and since Madara infused himself with the First's cells he has the ability to it like Yamato and Danzo even if didn't use it so far. Out of all three only Madara isn't listed but all three had Hashirama's cells into them. The simple fact that that Madara infused Hashirama's cells in to himself give's him access to the First's Kekkei Genkai since it is a genetic jutsu. Darksusanoo (talk) 21:05, August 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * Since no one has offered an objecting statement, I am going to add Madara as a Mokuton user. Master Shannara (talk) September 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * I still object, and I'm certain others will as well. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:44, September 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with Omni, we don't normally list techniques we assume people can use just because they have the prerequisites to do so.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 03:47, September 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * It seems that Kabuto knew that the one behing the mask was a fake one! So he resurrected real Madara to blackmail him. akz! (talk) ANBU Symbol.svg  12:07, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Madara- abilities
If madara is leader of akatsuki why didnt he hunt for the beasts as he can suck opponents into his dimensionand then he can extract tailed beasts from jinichuriki.
 * He wanted to stay hidden. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 15:52, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

And it takes ALOT of chakra to do that, he doesnt have that much chakra

Katon
can anybody tell me, when did madara use the Fireball jutsu ? i really want prove .. which episode ? pls--KyoyaCloudX (talk) 11:10, August 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * This should shed some light on the matter--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 11:35, August 6, 2011 (UTC)

alrigth, done reading all of it , thanks --KyoyaCloudX (talk) 12:03, August 6, 2011 (UTC)

picture
shouldn`t the photo be him with what he looks like now?--67.142.175.25 (talk) 02:25, August 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * We use images from their début in the infobox.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 02:36, August 8, 2011 (UTC)

Madara's Paths
As of recently Madara has used the bodies of 6 jinchuriki as he Paths of Pain. My confusion is to which bodies is he using? Kabuto used the Impure World Ressurection to summon back the 6 dead jinchuriki, yet Madara is also using the bodies? is he using the revived bodies or the actually bodies? 58.164.115.18 (talk) 11:14, August 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * Kabuto could have simply given the bodies to him for him to use or it's their actual corpses although that's unlikely since I'm sure I remember Zetsu eating them afterwards.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 11:24, August 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well isn't the body revived by Edo Tensei only obey their master? Isn't it dangerous for Madara? littlethief93 12:37, September 4, 2011 (UTC)

Removal of Presumed Natures
I think we should remove the natures because the Rinnegan does not automatically allow its wielder to use them. The user needs to know how to perform the nature transformation. Nagato was stated to have known all the six natures, Madara was not.--Deva 27 01:34, August 15, 2011 (UTC)
 * Didn't Jiraiya specifically say that the Rinnegan allows one to use all (basic) nature transformations? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:06, August 15, 2011 (UTC)
 * Jiraya said it enabled Nagato to master all six, he still had to learn how to use them.--Deva 27 02:17, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

Even so those shouldn't be removed...Nagato has Fire and Lightning Release as his natures but he was never shown using these...The Sage himself is listed as having all natures (without the presumed notice). Since the Rinnegan gives the ability to use these they should remain. Also since Madara took a already developed Rinnegan from Nagato, it's even more likely that he has these. Darksusanoo (talk) 02:26, August 15, 2011 (UTC)
 * Nagato was specifically said to be capable of using them, Madara was not. We should remove the Sage's natures as well. The Rinnegan does not automatically make the user capable of using them.--Deva 27 02:34, August 15, 2011 (UTC)
 * Them what was the point of stating in the manga/anime that the Rinnegan gave that ability? Besides it was stated that the Sage had full mastery of the abilities granted by the Rinnegan, which includes the ability of the nature transformations(It's kinda of hard to picture the Sage creating the Banana Fan which can create the 5 basic elements without he himself having these as well. And like i said before since Madara took Nagato's Rinnegan after the latter had already developed it, it's likely he inherited the techniques that acompany it. Darksusanoo (talk) 02:46, August 15, 2011 (UTC)
 * The databook states the wielder of the Rinnegan can master all the nature transformations, it does not say it is automatic. We do not know what Madara is capable of with the Rinnegan, so its speculation.--Deva 27 03:01, August 15, 2011 (UTC)
 * Fine i can go with that, but since the Rinnegan allows for such mastery and he has the presumed notice next to the other 3 natures i think it's ok the way it is. But do as you will. Darksusanoo (talk) 03:07, August 15, 2011 (UTC)

@Deva27 Considering it's perfectly possible (though difficult and unlikely) for a "regular" ninja to learn to use all nature transformations, there would have been no point to saying a Rinnegan could learn them. Edit: I may have misread some things in the above discussion. I apologize for any misunderstandings.Skitts (talk) 17:57, August 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * According to Jiraiya no regular shinobi has ever mastered all six natures, the Rinnegan was what allowed Nagato to learn how to use them all.--Deva 27 19:29, August 19, 2011 (UTC)

@unnamed above I'm pretty sure that was Yamato who said that (probably in the anime though). I don't ever remember Jiraya saying anything like that. Can you give me a chapter and page number? Also, sign your posts with four tildes ~ Skitts (talk) 19:23, August 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * Chapter 375, page 11. When Jiraiya explains Nagato's power, he says that Nagato had mastered all six elements and that was something completely unprecedented in the shinobi world.--Deva 27 19:30, August 19, 2011 (UTC)

In the translation I just read, it seems to indicate that the fact that Nagato mastered all of the natures by himself as what was "unprecedented" if I'm reading it correctly. Skitts (talk) 22:28, August 19, 2011 (UTC)

Madara Picture
So, chapter 551 of the manga has a full color photo of Madara with about half of his mask broken and showing the right side of his face. I was just wondering if we should add it to the page, or just wait for the anime to show it. CorwinDruzil (talk) 15:40, August 17, 2011 (UTC)CorwinDruzil
 * No that's fanart that MangaStream adds to the end of the chapters as a sort of "fan service"--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 15:41, August 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * C'mon people, see the deviantart credit in the page. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:55, August 18, 2011 (UTC)

Why....
Why you guys remove the lightning, water and wind nature type, from Madara's infobox? --thedasilva1 (talk) 01:26, 20 August 2011 (UTC)
 * Because.... Jacce | Talk | Contributions 06:00, August 20, 2011 (UTC)

Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan.
Hello,

Shouldn't we added madara and sasuke(in the future) the "Eternal" Mangekyou Sharingan into their infobox?

THANKYOU12:12, August 31, 2011 (UTC)--
 * Uhm, I think it was said somewhere that the Eternal Mangekyō is just a variant of the basic Mangekyō and as suck not another "dōjutsu" in that sense. So it wouldn't have to be reflected in the infobox.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 20:55, August 31, 2011 (UTC)

Madara Uchiha's age
It can be estimated from the flashbacks of Madara, how old he was in them, and how long ago he said they happened that Madara is over one hundred years old. Some indication should be added in the infobox on Madara's page as their is nothing there. (tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 15:36, September 4, 2011 (UTC))
 * We don't do guesstimated ages.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 15:52, September 4, 2011 (UTC)

Fukusaku the toad has an 800+ as an age. Could have fooled me. All I did was put a 100+ on Madara. (tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 17:13, September 4, 2011 (UTC))
 * I believe his age is confirmed also, on the topic of, The Great Toad Elder, his age being 1000+, I believe there ages are confirmed. --KiumaruHamachi (talk) 17:15, September 4, 2011 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi
 * From what I know we don't list "###+" ages, so going from that, I would say that Fukasaku's should be removed from the infobox if that's where it is and mentioned in his article as well as anyone else's to be fair. Those aren't ages they're ball park figures.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 17:22, September 4, 2011 (UTC)

Also, dont forget that we dont even know if Madara is truly behind the mask of Tobi.. Dont wanna start a discussion about all that, just saying.--62.226.55.54 (talk) 08:27, September 5, 2011 (UTC)Timiursa

missing jutsu
why is frilled neck lizard not listed?
 * The what? Jacce | Talk | Contributions 19:44, September 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * lolwut? thedasilva1 | Talk | Contributions 18:45, September 4, 2011 (UTC)

He is talking about the "jutsu" Tobi was going to use when he fought the eight man squad. It is not listed because it is no justu. He was joking around as always--62.226.55.54 (talk) 08:31, September 5, 2011 (UTC)Timiursa

Madara's Power
I think so that madara doesn't have any elemental powers nor any other jutsu except the rinnegan and the sharingan. Because till now he has not used elemental jutsu even when he was seriously battling konan. Even during his fight with Minato he didn't use anything except space time jutsu which I guess is the technique of his mangekyo sharingan. I don't see how the infobox can put his nature type since he has not shown any. And where did the earth style come from? In which anime chapter did he used it?
 * Did you bother to check the technique list?
 * He used Earth Release: Hiding Like a Mole Technique in chapter #358.
 * For the fire release, see this.
 * Jacce | Talk | Contributions 07:58, September 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * He used Earth Style: Hiding Like a Mole Technique to plant Deidara's C2 bombs underground during the fight with Sasuke. Even if he can use elemental jutsu apart from that, he might have not felt the need to use them since he has the space-time uber hax jutsu which proves to be sufficient in most cases. I don't think him not using any offensive elemental jutsu should be mentioned specifically. --kiadony --talk to me-- 08:02, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

What does it matter, that he doesn't use them? The Rinnegan grants its wielder all elemantal natures - fact! And, with your logic, Sasuke having the Lion's Barage mentioned as his technique is not right, since he doesn't use it at all, and has better, "uber hax" jutsus? 95.42.182.210 (talk) 22:38, September 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * You're not getting the point. The Rinnegan grants its wielder the ability to learn all elements. They still have to learn them before they can use them. —ShounenSuki (talk 23:07, September 5, 2011 (UTC)

Wasn't that for the jutsu part. They have to learn the actual jutsus, yes, but the elemental natures are given, i think. And i assume we know for sure, that Nagato has learned all elements, which is why his infobox puts them forward? Doesn't simply possessing the Rinnegan mean that all the elements should be put in the corresponding character's infobox? 77.85.110.76 (talk) 01:45, September 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * Jiraiya mentions that Nagato had mastered all six chakra nature transformations by age ten. In other words, Nagato had to actual learn how to transform his chakra into elemental chakra. This means the Rinnegan only grants its wielder the ability to learn the elements, but the wielder still has to learn to use them. In other words, it isn't certain in any way that a wielder of the Rinnegan can use the elements, unless stated so. —ShounenSuki (talk 07:06, September 6, 2011 (UTC)

Could you possibly provide a link to where Jiraiya states this? I could be wrong, of course, but i would appreciate it if you provide a chapter where it is directly said that one has to learn the elements, and how to use them... 95.43.74.109 (talk) 18:16, September 6, 2011 (UTC)

Isn't it possible he used Space-Time Migration to plant Deidara's bombs in ch 358? I mean this wouldn't be the first time this particular character has deliberately mislead or lied about this sort of thing.FFFX (talk) 17:15, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Why hasn't Madara shown his EMS yet?
I was just wondering why madara never revealed his EMS besides in a flashback. We know he has been using it because its abitilies are Space–Time Migration and Full Controll over tailed beast but why havn't we seen it at least once yet, maybe because he's wearing a mask i dont know but what do you guys think?
 * Madara's space-time technique was never stated to stem from EMS, or even the regular MS. At most, it was hinted at, with the technique's focal point being the eye, but not once has any character called it a dōjutsu. And the MS only allows one to control the Nine-Tails, not tailed beasts in general, and that's supposed to be something all MS can do. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:42, September 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * He also mentioned that his fight with Hashirama left him a shell of his former self, it might be that he simply can't use it.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 01:14, September 16, 2011 (UTC)

No it probably is a dojutsu because kakashi has something similar using his MS and madara is powerless to use any jutsu. Regular sharingans cannot use Space-Time ninjutsu so it has to be his EMS and it states that this Space Time migration comes from his right eye which is why he gave up his left eye instead. 68.216.154.2 (talk) 00:37, September 17, 2011 (UTC)TailedBeast
 * I never said it isn't a dōjutsu, just that it was never confirmed as one. Nothing says that regular Sharingan can't use space-time techniques either. Nothing says it can't be a regular MS instead of an EMS technique as well. What I mean is that since the technique was ever out-right stated to depend on kekkei genkai, be it Sharingan, MS or EMS, nothing impedes it from being simply a ST technique. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:01, September 17, 2011 (UTC)

Tsukuyomi
Shouldn't it be stated that madara can use Tsukuyomi cause his plan is to obtain the Ten Tails to powerup his MS and cast an Infinite Tsukuyomi on the moon. If im wrong then the Ten Tails might have an Infinite Tsukuyomi strong enough to cast on the moon because that eye on moon resembles the ten tails dōjutsu kekkei genkai if it is a sharingan or rinnegan or maybe thats how its eye just look LOL TailedBeastTailedBeast (talk) 16:42, September 20, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm certain this was discussed somewhere else already, but because I'm too lazy to look for it, here's the nutshell version. Considering that Madara is "a shell of his former self", and the fact he was never shown or mentioned to have used Tsukuyomi in the past (or any other MS technique for that matter, by technique I mean specific technique, not the basic "can control the Nine-Tails" ability), nothing suggests that Madara can use Tsukuyomi as he is so far. The current understanding is that he needs the Ten-Tails to restore his eyes, and only then he'd be able to cast Tsukuyomi. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:07, September 20, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. But what ever happened to his eyes in the first place, i thought the EMS was suppose to last forever even when they are implanted into someone else. Perhaps his old age prevents him from using its abilities or the 1st hokage really must have messed him up! LOOOL. Well he could just use sasukes old eyes and have a new EMS but thats a whole other story and.Anyway, i just want to point out that there is alot of missing intel on madara thats not mentioned or stated.65.0.108.106 (talk) 21:01, September 20, 2011 (UTC)TailedBeast
 * EMS appears to work only when the eye comes from a sibling, and it's implied that it's not really a transplant, but rather a fusion of the eyes, otherwise brothers with the MS would simply exchange eyes and both would get the EMS. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:24, September 20, 2011 (UTC)

O that makes much more sense and i forgot all about that.98.95.76.23 (talk) 22:27, September 20, 2011 (UTC)Tailed Beast

No, it is not implied it is a fusion of the eyes. It is just one set of eyes given to the other. The blood of the person flows through the new eyes and then BOOM his Mangekyo combines with the new one, creating the Eternal Mangekyo. it IS possible to switch eyes. But Madara cannot be trusted with his stories so who knows the absolute truth about him and Izuna, personally I think he was greedy so he hid his eyes so Izuna couldn't get the Eternal Mangekyo after he gave Madara his eyes, that way Madara could stay at the top and stay clan leader. Also, Itachi was already dying, and he eventually died to GIVE Sasuke the Mangekyo and knew Madara would take his eyes and transplant them into Sasuke. The eyes of Uchiha brothers CAN be switched giving both the Eternal Mangekyo, just the circumstance's were never right. Such as Madara being greedy and Itachi dying. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 18:30, September 26, 2011 (UTC)
 * Show me one thing in the manga suggesting it's possible to simply switch eyes. The reason it is suggested is because when Itachi tells Madara's story and tells Sasuke that he's his spare, the demon figure which appears behind them has four eye sockets, two of which are empty. If it was a simple exchange, there wouldn't be four sockets. And if Madara cared so much for Izuna, he could have simply given him his eyes. Itachi was almost blind, but Sasuke has no trouble seeing with those eyes. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:07, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

NO, YOU find ME evidence that it is a fusion of the eyes and explain to me HOW in the HELL he would FUSE the eyeballs. This is not dragonballz. Get that straight. Also, the word always used when talking about getting the EMS is "TRANSPLANT" not "FUSE". Google the word "Transplant" and wikipedia search it too. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 03:09, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * Why the sudden caps? I'm certain I'm not being rude or overly emphatic on anything. And if you check my previous comments, you'll see that I say it's implied to be a fusion, for reasons already stated. I never said "IT'S A FUSION OF THE EYES, MANGA FACKTS!!!!11!!". I never saw anything about "the blood of the person flows through the new eyes" anywhere, and that seems like pure fabrication for me. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:10, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Quick question though- If the eyes could be switched…what's this guy's purpose O.o--Cerez365™ 22:22, September 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * Can't see the link. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:50, September 27, 2011 (UTC)

Find me this supposed evidence/hints towards fusion and what chapter and page's they are on. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 00:56, October 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * ^All the EMS eyes look integrated somehow- end story. @Omnibender, though I think I found a simple reason why it was there- I was showing this why can't you see it :s--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 01:17, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

You and the picture haven't explained a damn thing. In fact that picture gives evidence towards transplanting more than fusion. As the word used EVERY TIME in the MANGA and DATABOOK is TRANSPLANTING. ShounenSuki would you please help solve this? I think translating the Mangekyo and Eternal Mangekyo section in databook 3 would help. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 04:36, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

I think Omnibender meant a fusion of the two MS, not literarally merging the eye balls into just one but its all kinda the same thing in the end. Anyway i still say madara can use Tsukuyomi but i know you people don't like putting "assumed" stuff down unless you acually see them do it first.TailedBeast (talk) 18:45, October 7, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah I Know the Mangekyo design is a fusion of the 2 mankegyo's and it combines the power of each eye but thats it. The eyeballs are not fused together. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 00:45, October 8, 2011 (UTC)

I once asked shouninsuki about this matter and thats what he said :

Itachi simply says you have to transplant another's "eye" (眼, me). In other words, he's referring to the entire eyeball and not just a single part of it like the cornea. There is no real indication how the transplant procedure works, but it does seem like it fuses the two eyeballs together. I don't really see how this is so unbelievable, though. —ShounenSuki (talk | contribs | translations) 18:52, March 5, 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your fast reply. How so i mean how could you exactly fuse two eye balls in our world? I know that this is manga and all but it still seems a little bit farfetched. and if madara was the first one to do this, why would anyone invent ajutsu to fuse both eyes? again thanks for your paitince --217.164.183.119 (talk) 19:28, March 5, 2011 (UTC) east fire

Maybe fusing two eyes together was an actual, if somewhat cruel, cure for blindness back in those days, explaining why the technique exists and why Madara would even attempt it. As for how it works: chakra. —ShounenSuki (talk | contribs | translations) 19:33, March 5, 2011 (UTC)

--2.51.224.4 (talk) 12:57, October 8, 2011 (UTC) EAST FIRE

Split - damn it...
Well, I guess we have to move this page back to Tobi and seperate all the madara uchiha history... There is also the fact that the summoned madara knew about Nagato... S im A nt 11:17, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * This from the fact that in the recently-released chapter 559, Uchiha Madara is already dead and apparently an entirely different entity from the one running around as "Madara" with the Sharingan and Rinnegan. This really wracks up all of the editing/narrative-building we've been doing here. (sigh) Magatama90 (talk) 11:24, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well we don't know the entire story behind those two because It'd seem that each knows the other, but I think they are good enough articles to stand on their own. It seems like the right course of action in any case.---Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg
 * I agree. --Ilnarutoanime 11:40, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Consider this an Executive Order. For now, we do nothing. Cerez is right, we don't know the whole story. For all we know Masked!Madara could have split off from Dead!Madara to stay alive longer. Could have simply stolen his identity. We don't know. The last thing we need is to start gutting and splitting, and rearranging crap until we know for sure.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 11:40, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Madara has already defied expectations several times. Dying and deciding he can still run around either through some crazy reincarnation, or simple body theft doesnt seem to far off.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 11:43, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * He may also do something crazy like Orochimaru. Ilnarutoanime 11:45, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Hell he could BE Madara. This is why this is stupid. And will require the precision of a surgical knife as opposed to a Decapitating Carving Knife.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 11:47, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * I can also speculate who is in the sixth coffin. This will have LOTS of speculations! --Ilnarutoanime 11:52, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * In all liklihood the real Madara was who was in Coffin #6 and that was why Tobidara was so freaked out. 173.180.66.225 (talk) 15:18, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

I can't wait to see people ranting that Tobi is Obito again. Maybe Madara knew Muu's spliting technique too ( it's not impossible being as he fought Onoki.. it wouldn't be a stretch to say he fought Muu as well possibly, giving him access to the technique by copying it with the sharingan. ) and split himself at some point ( like when he fought the 1st Hokage ) - then one half got killed while the other continued to live and age with half of his original power. But then again.. I don't suppose Muu's splitting jutsu can split one's soul? And unless it's some sort of a translation error - the ressurected Madara is aware of Nagato's existance, which means he died after the later was born ( 35-ish years ago at most ) and not when fighting the 1st Hokage ( 80/70-ish years ago? o.o ) It's all very convoluted to me >.<

````--Thandurill (talk) 11:56, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * So, what should we do? Separate the two articles? Come to a conclusion already. akz! (talk) ANBU Symbol.svg  11:58, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with Simant. We should separate it now. I speculate that this is a fake Madara. Maybe the one who is in the sixth coffin is the resurrected Madara. This is just my speculation.--Ilnarutoanime 12:03, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

If the MaskedMadara was "split" from the RevivedMadara, then when Kabuto showed him the 6th coffin why would he call Kabuto a mad man? Surely he wouldn't of over reacted in such a way? I've got a feeling they're two different people but I'm not jumping to conclusions. I say we leave things as they are for the time being and see what the next chapter says and we can start with these changes to things, yes? SusanooUnleashed (talk) 12:02, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * That was the plan.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 12:03, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * @SusanooUnleashed, maybe the two were different people, but how about the sharingan? Didn't he also came from the same clan? (Just speculating)--Ilnarutoanime 12:06, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Then let's stick to it. Instead of name changing articles and stuff :) SusanooUnleashed (talk) 12:05, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

For now, all we have to do is impatiently wait for the next chapter, I hope there's NO delay. Ilnarutoanime 12:07, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

@Ilnarutoanime; There is a lab full of Sharingan. Sharingan can be transplanted into anyone as we've seen. But like I said, no need to jump to conclusions and this isn't a place for speculations. Let's just wait and see. It's better to be correct the incorrect xD SusanooUnleashed (talk) 12:11, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Someone check the spoilers of chapter 561, that say Tobi revived Shisui, Kikaku and Fugaku. They say Tobi's name is Tobdara. I think it's simply untrue. akz! (talk) ANBU Symbol.svg  12:16, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * How can there be spoilers for 561 and we're at 559? Don't believe all the hype that's to come- stick to the topic at hand.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg


 * yeah, I also think it's totally fake. They were just fan predictions I suppose. akz! (talk) ANBU Symbol.svg  12:24, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

I hate to say this, because I'm fully aware of the impractically involved in doing so, but I believe it would be totally inappropriate for us not to split the articles between Tobi and Madara respectively. As far as the information we have available, it confirms that Madara is indeed dead and that any argument to the contrary is purely unfounded speculation at the current time. I understand people's reluctance to perform such a move, but there is absolutely no guarantee that we will receive confirmation next chapter, or that the individual in question will be revealed to be Madara rather than simply someone else. I really don't see sitting on our hands as that viable an option, as everything points towards the information needing to be separated at one point or another. Blackstar1 (talk) 12:51, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * I say just create a new page for madara, add the background details and Confining the jinchuriki arc and Shinobi World War Arc's info that he has been resurrected. We'll add more info when other chapters are released. akz! (talk) ANBU Symbol.svg  12:57, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately if this page is intended to be split, it isn't as simple as that. Numerous links on a large amount of articles also need to be altered to reflect the change, which at the moment I believe to be the only reason why some are reluctant to perform the move. However, I don't hold impracticality alone to be a good enough reason for us to simply wait and see. Blackstar1 (talk) 13:06, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Reserved. In class for three hours. (TheUltimate3)--131.118.85.215 (talk) 13:35, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * I have a few questions. Firstly, did anybody realize that the resurrected Madara seemed to know Nagato? Secondly, how and why? Lastly, i feel that the "Real Madara" and the "Imposter Madara" are completely different people and of completely different chakra. Now if you guys had noticed, Ao mentioned that a NEW presence has arrived alongside Mu. Ao should recognise the "Imposter Madara"'s chakra signature so he sensed that this new presence has a different chakra signature. This is prove enough to show that clearly Tobi and Madara are two different people and not ome stupid Split Justu. (Sasori35)Sasori35 (talk) 13:59, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Whether we split the article or not, there are going to have to be some major, major changes in the future. It's obvious now that the whole Tobi–Madara thing is as complicated as people have feared it was. There are so many possibilities right now that it's not even funny any more. Are Madara and Tobi two completely different people? Are they split somehow? Is Tobi not as human as we thought? Are they, perhaps, still connected in a way? After all, Tobi mentioned before that he wanted Nagato to use the Rinne Tensei for him, and now Madara was actually expecting that Nagato had revived him.


 * This is, perhaps, the greatest revelation in the manga so far and we have to handle it with great care. Still, I think a split might be the best course of action. It's going to be a long and difficult project, but I'm sure we can pull through just fine. —ShounenSuki (talk 14:03, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Sho, I'm with you 100% of the way. Let's split the articles. But as you said, this is "the greatest revaluation" and "with great care." If there's any way I can help, I will help. --KiumaruHamachi (talk) 14:05, October 12, 2011 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi


 * I think we can do a split. But I was wondering, if a team could be assigned to the the initial separation (like have the sysops lock Tobi and Madara) and then others can contribute when they're completely serrated?--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 14:15, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * What should we do then? Create a new page named "Madara Uchiha", transfer the background of the previous article, add the two arcs, rename the previous article as Tobi. "OR" do vice-versa. akz! ANBU Symbol.svg (talk 14:13, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * As far as I know, this is the admins call. Whatever they decide, we should just go with no fighting or edit war. --KiumaruHamachi (talk) 14:15, October 12, 2011 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi


 * I also agree entirely. Yes, it is a huge undertaking but I fully believe that this wiki has the community to handle such a project and one that would do so with enough care, to ensure that the split is done both accurately and in its entirety. Blackstar1 (talk) 14:17, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * We would turn the redirect page "Tobi" into an article, simple as that.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 14:18, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * lol :D akz! ANBU Symbol.svg (talk 14:20, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * I support the splitting of articles as well, for reasons already stated above. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:42, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * So, should we do it now?? or wait for tommorow when more editors approve. I say tommorow. akz! ANBU Symbol.svg (talk 15:44, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

The two are almost certainly related in some way due to Nagato comments made by the both of them. Damn you Kishi. You've been keeping us wondering just who could frighten Madara and it turns out to be...Madara. xD When I saw the Uchiha crest I was like "Izuna?!" Nope. This will have to be handled with care. I don't think Kishi would just have us believe that Tobi managed to fool Itachi, Jiraiya, Minato, Nagato, and Konan into thinking he was alive. Not to mention, I doubt he'd have said all of that stuff to Konan, whom he was about to kill, if he wasn't him. Hopefully next week (so far away...) will bring answers. Skitts (talk) 15:53, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'll admit that the Nagato remark complicates matters somewhat, however, I still believe a split would be the most appropriate action. I would suggest that any information which is even remotely ambiguous to who it refers to, is instead moved to Tobi's article, where it can remain rather isolated until we get further confirmation that might prompt it to be moved elsewhere. Blackstar1 (talk) 16:12, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * This is going to end up a mess. I can feel it in mah bones. I still say we wait until next chapter, under the same assumption we use the "Presumed Deceased" label. But if it is clearly the minority then so be it.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 16:51, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with TheUltimate3. Waiting until a possible confirmation next week is best and prevents any revisions we would need if it turns out that they're both Madara...somehow. I second the 'Presumed Deceased' label. Skitts (talk)

I also agree with TheUltimate3. For all we no Tobi could be the result of Madara's jutsu or something.--Deva 27 17:13, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

so in the end we split? or we just leave it be... just some random guy that is mostly inactive on this wiki


 * Tobi is so far not 100% confirmed to be Madara. This is due to the latest chapter of naruto, chapter 559. Personally I believe we should give Tobi a page for himself, because he is not Madara.


 * In the end... we wait. Just have some patience people, this isn't something we can rush. It may seem like nothing to you, but there's a lot of "did Tobi or Madara do this" that has to happen.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 19:12, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm fine with supporting the deferral of a split for a further week, but only in the case that such a decision is made because of the difficulty in deciding where the separation of information should occur, due largely to the Nagato remark. However, I don't support any action which points towards these individuals both being Madara. Although it remains a possibility in the absence of definitive confirmation, there is no evidence to support such a claim as of yet, so it would be simply speculation on our part and thus shouldn't be included in the wiki. Blackstar1 (talk) 19:21, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

A split doesn't seem like it would be very difficult. ~SnapperTo 20:16, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * @Snapper2 Except, that we'd have to go through every article and confirm which did what. Skitts (talk) 01:03, October 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * On the contrary: I think that would be even easier than the split itself. In 95% of the cases where a "Madara" is mentioned, it is in reference to Tobi (or someone wearing a mask, who it is simpler to refer to as Tobi until there is evidence to the contrary). The 5% that should remain "Madara" are easy to guess: Hashirama, Konoha, Nine-Tails, Mangekyo, and the like, and even then the Madara coverage is largely restricted to a predictable section(s). It's just a matter of ShounenSuki running his bot and then partially reverting the bot for the handful of exceptions. ~SnapperTo 02:41, October 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * ^ =O Snaps! I tried to come up with a meaningful addition but... Snaps! ^_^--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 04:14, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

i think we should rename this guy tobi and make another madara uchiha page for the real one, since it was obvious in the last chapter that "tobi" and madara aren't the same person.Dionit (talk) 20:42, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

I believe that Tobi was created by orochimaru the same way that Yamato was created using cells from the FIRST. HE was not exactly created but modified just like Danzo. Because of this expriment Kabuto gained access to Madara cells which he used for edo summoning.Having Madara cells in his body then enabled him to use all the Jutsus of the Uchiha clan. HE can also be Sauske father since he was no where to be found near his mom the night she was giving Birth, which was the same night the Fox attacked. We also know that he was planning a attempted coup Cause he asked Itachi to play a part in it. He was the only living member of the Uchiha clan that was disgruntled with Sarutobi method of governing the Hidden Leaf. He has a stockpile of sharingans which could have been collected the night he massacred his clan with itachi. He also hid his face to conceal his identity which means he is well known and can be easily identified.To know of Nagato's existance he had to lived in the same era with him and then died( there is no other way). Nothing Tobi says can be taken seriously since he lied to Sasuke and left him entirely twisted.Remember Yamato knew nothing of Orochimaru experiment becaused he grow up as a normal child. (submitted by yellowflash Jinchurikin)

If I may interject, wouldn't it be easier to move this section into a forum or blog? I'm not exactly familiar with this wiki's rules, however it makes sense that a talk page be used to ask simple, small questions that don't extend further than 3-5 posts.-- SalmanH  (Talk)  15:18, October 14, 2011 (UTC)

@yellowflash Jinchurikin No. And what are you talking about? We've never seen anything about the day Sasuke was born. Neither of his parents were around during the night the Fox attacked, only Itachi. And speaking of Itachi, Sasuke witnessed him kill both his mother and father (that may have been a genjutsu). Not to mention, Sasuke saw there dead bodies Skitts (talk) 15:56, October 14, 2011 (UTC)

Name change
I nominate we change the title of this page back to Tobi, in light of the new chapter
 * Me too. --Ilnarutoanime 11:52, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

That makes three of us. It'll make things less confusing.--Hockey Machete (talk) 11:57, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Next 2 chapters are mostly based on Lee and Sakura. akz! (talk)   12:13, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

"Madara" not being Madara would certainly explain (and feel free to corect me if im wrong) why we have never seen Madaras MS or EMS in the curent story line, and also to some extend why he is always hiding his face. I do have my personal theory, but since this isnt the place for this (and no, i dont think he is Obito :P), ill just say i dont think the Madara who is alive really is Madara, but i still think we should keep the article like this, until we know more, simple because it would be a huge work to move it now, just to have to move it back next wednesday. --Cosmikaze (talk) 12:37, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * I agree that this "Madara" is someone else than "Madara" in latest chapter, but I agree with Cosmikaze that even it si obvious, it will take a lot of time. Lets wait another week for more :) Definitely the living "Madara" must be as long as the dead "Madara", when knowing this all about Senju, Uchiha, Sage of the Six Paths, Juubi etc. Also, as Cosmikaze said, it explains that living "Madara" didnt showed his Mangekyou Sharingan (thought I think he has it) nor is hiding his face very well, and that he was blackmailed by Kabuto. I think that the sixth coffin was in fact real "Madara", a proof that the living is not the real one. And for theory, I think that this is in fact Izuna, but lets wait for the next chapter :)


 * PS, Kishimoto give me a good example of the posture for my own character with the one Madara has in before-last page, even the clothes. --VolteMetalic (talk) 12:59, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

A question but do you think when Madara said that Nagato was supposed to save that jutsu to revive everyone killed in Konaha he meant in order to revive his own body.
 * Answer- Not a forum.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 14:15, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe it was Izuna who fought Hashirama O_O Oh, God ... I mean Kishi--Elveonora (talk) 15:16, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Like Databook 3, Madara Uchiha and Tobi should have different character entries, and this chapter proves it. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 15:24, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Just a passerby, but it seems like all this arguing is overlooking the simpler option of simply putting a banner at the top of the Tobi and Madara page indicating that "In light of recent chapter(s), the data in this page is subject to change based upon future revelations in the cannon. Thank you for your patience!" Then you can section/retitle/remain any data as necessary as Kishi slowly bleeds out the data we're all starving for over the next year. ItachiWasAHero2 (talk) 15:24, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Madara isn't Tobi
Will there be a Tobi page and a Madara page, since Madara isn't Tobi after all. Check the chapter 'Reinforcements Arrive...' I'm confused...
 * --Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 15:24, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

There will be a lot of material to move from one page to another. That's for real. --BGMaxie (talk) 15:51, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

According to the latest chapters (559), Madara Uchiha is not actually Madara Uchiha, so, would it not be better to split this page into the Madara Poser and real Madara? The Forgotten (talk) 16:08, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

The 559th chapter suggest that the "dead Madara" was the one who gave Nagato his powers, since he first thought he was brough back to life thanks to the "outer path". That would mean he survived decades after the fight against the First Hokage. The most consfusing moment is the meeting with Kisame : the man claims to be Madara, has long hair, and even shows his face to the swordman so that he can recruit as a spy inside Akatsuki. And years later Tobi uncovers his face to him again, confirming that the one who gave him orders was indeed Tobi. If Tobi isn't Madara, where did he get all those informations about Madara's history, ideology, feelings, when did he swap with the real one? If Tobi is Madara, then that means Madara exists as 2 entities: one dead and the other one on the real world as an "empty shell". In conclusion i think you should keep the page but create 5 parts : 1 - Madara Uchiha : history until is defeat against Harashima + Resurrection 2 - The 4th Mizukage's Manipulator : who recruited Kisame 3 - The Fist Masked Man : who attacked Konoha and met with Itachi 4 - Tobi : the goofy member of Akatsuki 5 - The Last Masked Man : after Deidara's suicide until now.

Then you just have to say that 2,3 and 5 claimed to be Madara. --Ardeau (talk) 22:22, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

A Non-Tobi-Isn't-Madara Question
I know the raws won't be out for a little while, but was it made clear which Naruto that Madara was heading towards? By that, I mean did it say he was moving towards one of his clones? I'd assume that t wasn't so clear, but I don't think he could possibly know where the real one was. Skitts (talk) 16:21, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * I would asume he is moving toward the Naruto that is with Bee, especialy since it wasnt stated that he moved toward Naruto but the Jinchūrikis. --Cosmikaze (talk) 16:24, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Tobi is moving towards the Jinchūriki (the real Naruto and B, as it were), while the reincarnated Uchiha Madara is standing before Gaara's squad with Mū. 66.220.139.79 (talk) 16:31, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Tobi can still be Madara
First off, everyone is always saying "anything is possible in a manga/anime." The 3rd OFFICIAL databook stated that Tobi is Madara. I don't know about anyone else, but to me if a databook is official, that means the information in it is correct. My theory after the last two chapters: Madara split his soul so he's two different people. This will support the databook, the quote to Naruto "My goal is to become complete.", and the revived Madara. Until Tobi reveals his identity, no one can really say he's not Madara.


 * I can also speculate that it's just Madara's body. --Ilnarutoanime 17:42, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Since it was Edo Tensei'd at least part of his soul had to be with him though. And sorry I forgot to sign the post76.106.146.190 (talk) 17:46, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes... I agree with your post. Just next time don't forget to sign your posts. --Ilnarutoanime 17:53, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sometimes the databook does do some odd things and revisions, such as Wood Release initially being a Hiden technique and later a Kekkai Genkai. Skitts (talk) 17:50, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * It's like databooks sometimes mades us curious.-Ilnarutoanime 17:53, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Databooks don't reveal things ahead of where the manga is at release. Example, the first Databook reveals nothing about Kyubi's ability to sense negative emotions, or Jiraiya having Sage Mode, or the abilities of Sasuke's mangekyo. The other things you've said might prove to be true, but since we don't know right now: It's only speculation. Ferlize (talk) 17:54, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, but of course, databooks are just our guide. --Ilnarutoanime 17:58, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes but to rely on the information from a 3 year old book is folly.--Cmcwiki (talk) 02:51, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

Just to support this, Tobi and Madara obviously know each other. How do I know? Because of Madara's words, "So it FINALLY happened. Looks like that little brat Nagato was able to grow." This means that Tobi and Madara MADE this plan together!76.106.146.190 (talk) 18:22, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

This is not a forum.--Cerez365™ 18:28, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Honestly, this has a possibility to go either way. Madara was said to have died against the first hokage, he has the outfit he wore at that time on. But every person has said Tobi is Madara, the Kyuubi, Itachi, Kabuto. But Onoki was able to tell the Edo was Madara. But nothing should be changed or added until we have more information on both Madara. Id say though that they are both Madara.Skarrj (talk) 18:43, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd go with the whole "Madara died during the fight with Hashirama" as a benchmark, but the person that Itachi met looked awfully a lot more like "Madara" than "Tobi". But effectively, everything the masked person did was Tobi and everything else is Madara apparently. To me, Tobi seems like he might be exactly like Hashirama's Living Clone with a consciousness.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 19:27, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't. If Madara had died during the epic battle, he wouldn't know Nagato. I believe that Tobi killed Madara, stole his identity, and continued operating to revive the Jubi. Madara thought he was revived by Nagato's Rinne Tensei and so he was surprised to find out it is Edo Tensei. Back to business. I think we shouldn't change anything until more information is revealed.


 * But 3rd Databook intruded the Madara and Tobi as seperate characters. I will add a quotes from the article "(despite Tobi and Madara being the same person, the databook gives them separate entries): ". I think, that we should split up a article. Later, if we'll must, we add back to one article. Sorry, if my English is wrong.GothicWarrior  (Dyskusja)  20:31, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Best thing to do would be wait until the next chapter is released and see what is revealed. Than decide if articles need to be split, in my opinion.Highvalour 21:57, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * The thing is, despite the third databook giving separate articles to Tobi and Madara, both those articles state that Tobi is, in fact Madara.
 * From Madara's artice:
 * From Tobi's article:
 * I too think separate articles are best for now, but that in no way means they are actually separate characters. There is far too much evidence that suggests they aren't. —ShounenSuki (talk 21:43, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind that the databooks are written by editors, not Kishimoto, and they don't spoil stuff that won't happen for another couple hundred chapters. What were they supposed to say? "Oh, also, Tobi is only pretending to be Madara, but try and act surprised when Kabuto summons Madara in chapter 559!"
 * And frankly, for all the supposed evidence, I've always had the impression that Tobi wasn't exactly who he said he was, considering of course Kabuto's dialogue with him when originally summoning his 'trump card', and the way in which Tobi frequently refers to himself as being Madara, but in the third person ("I am the Uchiha Madara who did this and that!" and so on)... 66.220.139.79 (talk) 22:12, October 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * The databooks are written by Kishimoto-sensei himself and although they generally don't spoil things, they also don't state things as clearly as the above-mentioned examples if they are going to be proven false later on. Kishimoto-sensei has had no trouble leaving things open, ambiguous, and uncertain in the past.
 * And I agree that doubt has been cast on Tobi's identity, but not as clearly and often as you think. Him referring to himself as Madara in the third person is actually very common for overly arrogant bad guys. Sesshōmaru from the Inuyasha series does it as well, for example, and there is zero doubt about his identity and there never has been. —ShounenSuki (talk 22:20, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * You sure about that, ShounenSuki? I just checked the credits at the back of the Character Books, and they say the books were edited and compiled by the staff of Caramel Mama Co., LTD. (a company which writes, edits, and compiles various guide books), while Kishimoto is only credited as the creator of the original work. 66.220.139.65 (talk) 02:48, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

actually there have been hints that mask madara might not be the real one for some time. kabuto refers to madara in the third person when explaining the edo tensei to mask madara, for instance, and when kabuto, summoned the former akatsuki members, we knew it had to be someone whose abilities, identity or sheer power had leverage over mask madara. personally ive been wondering if mask madara is actually the brother for some time.
 * People have been misinterpreting Tobi's reaction to the sixth coffin for a long time now. Tobi was never afraid of it. It was never about the sixth coffin being able to overpower Tobi. Instead, Tobi was both repulsed and surprised that Kabuto was capable of summoning the sixth coffin and the power it held over Tobi was not strength, but information. —ShounenSuki (talk 22:44, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

I say we should split it into two pages, even if they are both Madara. For now, anything is quite possible, maybe Madara split himself into two when fighting Hashirama and one half died and the other didn't? We just don't know yet. Splitting the page into "Tobi" and "Madara Uchiha" would make more sense since then we would be able to follow the actions of each in the manga. --GoDai (talk) 23:01, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

I think that should wait until the next chapters come out. --C.L.- The Real Ultimate Lifeform 23:22, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Something is strange, Edo Madara just mentioned Nagato and thought Nagato revived him before he realized what is going on. Mask Madara mentioned wanting Nagato to do just that. Perhaps he is ticked off because Kabuto has control over potentially the strongest nin out there in the war under his control. Perhaps that is why he called Kabuto a mad man because that wasn't thr form of revival he had in plan for Madara's soul.Umishiru (talk) 03:42, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

i agree, we should wait and see how this plays out in the next chapter, since creating two separate pages would be seriously involved, and we dont know if they are actually two different people at the moment. and to shounensuki above, yes you are correct, thats why i was trying to say the mysterious coffin gave kabuto "leverage" over madara. sorry if that wasnt clear, yoshiyuki17


 * @66.220.139.65: I'm quite sure, yes. Kishimoto-sensei is specifically listed as the author of all the data, fan, and art books, in the same way he is listed as the author of the Naruto volume releases. Caramel Mama only compiles, edits, and designs the books. All the information and art in them still comes from Kishimoto-sensei. —ShounenSuki (talk 09:52, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

I think Tobi isn't Madara, but someone who idolized Madara. Think abouth it who can hate Senju and Konoha more than Madara and would kill all Uchiha, someone who was close to Madara and idolized him, maybe a son or someone close, who was thinking Uchiha was traitors and hated Senju and Leaf for death of Madara.Sasuke now idolizes Itachi who he hated so maybe it is the same situation.Tobi knows everything about Madara, so maybe he saw when real Madara gave Nagato Rinegan, and he used his chance.And as Tobi has Sharingan he is Uchiha, Zetsu never called Tobi Madara, and he is the closest to him. Now maybe Tobi inpersonated Madara after his death, maybe he is Madara's son or related, because related and family people hate all people who are conected to their beloved and idols, and that is common for Uciha that kind of hate. For all we know maybe Tobi isn't Uchiha because if he could easy transplant rinnegan into his eye maybe he could also transplanted sharingan...YamatoTakeru (talk) 10:14, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

Though I believe Tobi is Madara in one form or another, I suggest splitting the article just for following actions of both Madara's more easily.Faust-RSI (talk) 14:05, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

Madara is some kind of relic for people in Naruto manga. He was only capapble to fight Harshirama.Okay we can say what we think, but until next chapter doesn't come out we don't know what is actually happening because we can't confirm, like with Neji.Theory about Zetsu transformation was true but also a lucky shoot, aldo some people here said it was obvious, noting in this manga is obvious until it is conformed by author trow manga. So nobody shall do nothing until we get confirming in a form of chapter. Also if everything is clear in managa than it would not be interesting. Theory is just a theory, can be changed like we saw in recent history. So until next chapter or maybe next arc or the end of whole manga, because this will not be settled so easy.Logic will not help us eider because it is all Kishimoto's fiction and his imaginaton, also nothing he said in interview or Kishimoto's history won't help eider, only time will show. Beside, nobody died, it's just some lame trick or something that Kishimoto like to do...YamatoTakeru (talk) 16:10, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

Infobox image
Considering the issue raised in the last issue (ha ha! pun!) wouldn't it be reasonable to replace the infobox image with one that is indisputably Madara? I would suggest moving the attached image up into that spot. Not only would it be the safely accurate thing to do until this mystery is cleared up, it will remain so for the life of this wiki. I'd do it myself but I don't want to spark an edit war. -- Boradis (talk) 23:43, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * As you can see by the above topics, we're seeing how and when we'll split the page. That image in particular comes from a cover page, so it's not really an infobox type of image. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:52, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * It doesn't necessarily need to be that image, it was just the first one I found. Nevertheless, as the identity of the man in the orange mask has been deliberately thrown into doubt by Kishimoto himself, the current image is inappropriate for the article's lead spot. At the very least a better caption for it would be "A ninja who claims to be Madara." --Boradis (talk) 23:58, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Ha I knew it. Kishi pwned everyone today... except me. Tobi and Madara are going to need separate pages.

Actually, NVM Tobi already has a page, he goes by... --js2 (talk) 23:58, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

I've already uploaded an image for the infobox of Madara Uchiha, if the articles are split. akz! (talk  03:33, October 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * It needs to be an image from the time he wore the red armor, as he wore it after that and it was his latest known true appearance besides the manga. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 21:11, October 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * I think that manga image of him should suffice. The only good anime image of him looking like the Madara we know is in black and white.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 22:46, October 13, 2011 (UTC)

What ever happened to the picture of Madara when he was young like the one Izuna Uchiha has?TailedBeast (talk) 03:02, October 14, 2011 (UTC)

During Tobi's speech to sasuke about the truth of the Uchiha and Madara's past, he is shown a few times in his red armor, are there any good pics from those episodes? ItachiWasAHero (talk) 05:14, October 14, 2011 (UTC)

Nagato Should've Resurrected Madara
Page 2 of Reinforcements Arrive…!! Madara states that Nagato should have had something to do with his resurrection. Should we place that in somehow.

No. It is already well known that Nagato can revive people. Also, we're still in the process of deciding whether or not the article is going to be split between Tobi and Madara. Actually, it could probably be given a small aside. Skitts (talk) 05:24, October 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't that have been mentioned already since Tobi said the same thing though?--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 12:46, October 14, 2011 (UTC)