Talk:Madara Uchiha

SPECULATION WILL BE REMOVED

Quick Question
Does anyone know where the first mention of Madara is in the series (chapter wise)? I'm assuming it's during Naruto and Sasuke's fight at the end of Part 1, but I thought I'd ask. Skitts (talk) 18:11, January 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the first time was in chapter 309. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 18:48, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

I think during part 1. Sasuke only looked at the statues and said how the valley is called. So yeah, Kyubi said "Uchiha Madara" for the first time. --Elveonora (talk) 07:06, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

Moniker
Second of the Six Paths is Madara's Moniker not Tobi's as Madara actually awakened the Rinnegan, Tobi did not. Tobi even admits he is not Madara anymore whne he said his old name was Tobi. So put that Moniker on Madara's page too. 72.66.90.246 (talk) 14:12, January 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * I swore I brought this up already. Any way, Tobi called himself that regardless so I don't think it can be changed. Even though I believe that Madara is also the "Second Six Paths", he has never been called that personally. Besides it would seem that they both have the Rinnegan so it's a bit confusing.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 14:22, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

-____- its not confusing, Tobi stole the Rinnegan from the left eye of Nagato's corpse. Madara awakened his shortly before death, even if it was just because he had Hashirama's DNA, he still awakened it, making him the true Second of the Six Paths. Tobi was just using Madara's existence as his own, for his own goals and purposes, he admitted his name was actually Tobi when he told Naruto to call him by his old name, Tobi, if he wanted. 72.66.90.246 (talk) 03:27, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

That dosent prove that Tobi isnt Madara. He only gives Naruto the option of calling him either Tobi or Madara because it didnt matter what he was called as he only wanted to accomplish his mission. --Beautyandbrains (talk) 09:49, March 16, 2012 (UTC)


 * That's still seen as an assumption. We can't give him the moniker until it's used in reference to Madara Uchiha directly. Giving him that moniker is like saying if Tobi had called himself the "Space-Time Migrating God of Shinobi" while "pretending" to be Madara then we should call Madara that.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 03:37, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Is not everything Tobi said about himself as Madara, actions and stuff of real Madara ? Like ... Tobi: "I fought Hashirama" real meaning: "Madara fought Hashirama" --Elveonora (talk) 13:10, January 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't know if everything he said about himself while "pretending" to be Madara is true since I'm a Hyūga and not Tobi's best friend . Just because Madara fought Hashirama, does that mean that Tobi didn't or couldn't have as well? I always say people are taking too hard a line on this Tobi/Madara thing before their story is revealed. Any way, like I said, though it's logical that Madara may be the Second Six Paths, unless it's attributed directly to Madara Uchiha.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 14:02, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

But it can also be possible that Nagato awakened his own Rinnegan as I dont see how Madara/Tobi could have given it to Nagato or even if he did why would he? And Tobi didnt awaken his Rinnegan he stole it from Nagato's corpse. Madara awakened his so the he could have been the Sage of the Six Paths before Nagato.--Beautyandbrains (talk) 09:49, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

Protection Needed
Repeated vandalistic edits are being made to this page, requesting that the page be protected for a while. --speysider (talk) 11:56, January 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * Bumping this as the page is being vandalised again. --speysider (talk) 21:38, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

Madara's classification
Doesn't Madara's power befit an S-rank classification? It says on S-rank's article it is also classification given to extremely powerful missing-nin. Shouldn't S-rank be included in Madara's infobox? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 02:43, January 16, 2012 (UTC))
 * They're going based on Databook entries I believe, not on their own assumptions of power.-- Hohenheim ☯ Talk ☯  02:45, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

This is a common misconception. If you read the article on S-rank you wouldn't ask that. A shinobi's power is not gauged using those ranks, techniques are. Outside of that S-rank is used for missing-nin that have been classified as such in a Bingo Book or through the manga/[databook] like the Akatsuki I believe.--Cerez365™ 02:53, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Video game debut
The infobox says his debut was in Storm 2, but I really don't remember him being anywhere in there. Goofy Tobi was in it, and his awakening was serious Tobi with sharingan and all; maybe it's a remnant from the days when Tobi was Madara on here. Anyway, long haired, mangekyo-wielding, armoured Madara wasn't in Storm 2 as far as I recall.--Ferlize (talk) 21:09, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Actually it was where Tobi was telling Sasuke the truth about Itachi. You had it right. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 00:02, January 17, 2012 (UTC))

Madara's power and mastery of Fire Release.
Madara Uchiha has demonstrated in use what has so far been the largest and strongest Fire Release technique in Uchiha clan, so would noting him as the most proficient in the clan really be inappropriate? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 23:50, January 16, 2012 (UTC))

But we don't know that. We've only been shown a few Uchiha, and each has used no more than two Fire Release techniques so we don't know. Anyway, his mastery over Fire Release is duly noted and I don't see much point in putting something in like that which isn't really known. Skitts (talk) 00:14, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

I meant to say it is the largest known technique in the Uchiha clan. And as far as we have seen, it is the most sizeable and powerful. Would it really hurt to note he is the most proficient in the clan that is known until we see otherwise? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 00:34, January 17, 2012 (UTC))

Only Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique is greatly affiliated with the Uchiha clan and even it is used outside of it. Skitts (talk) 01:20, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

True, but nobody but Madara has been shown to know his technique, so until someone else in Uchiha clan or someone outside it does show they have it, its strickly Uchiha affiliated. As far as any Fire Release technique known to be used by the Uchiha goes, Madara's is the most powerful and dangerous. Would it hurt to acknowledge he is the most proficient known Fire Release user in the Uchiha clan until we know otherwise? It took four Water Encampment wall technique users combined to extinguish Madara's attack after all. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 02:13, January 17, 2012 (UTC))

What about Amaterasu, the strongest Fire Release technique? :P akz!  02:45, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Not because a person is the only one to use a technique means it's affiliated with them or their clan. Especially then it's something like simple nature manipulation. As far as any fire technique... they've only been linked to the Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique and from all indications they were/all are proficient with Fire Release. In the same manner that you argue that he's the greatest I could say no one has used a more powerful Great Fireball than Obito or created as large a one as Fugaku. It's an unnecessary assumption with no evidence and we're supposed to be impartial. Also, as far as the most powerful fire release technique affiliated with the Uchiha, it's Amaterasu and Madara hasn't even used that.--Cerez365™ 02:46, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

I didn't mean period, I mean't just standard ninjutsu, not techniques only Mangekyo users can have. In that way, anyone with a Mangekyo can equal him. In terms of nature transformation, nobody, Uchiha or otherwise, has used a Fire Release technique as strong as his. And I said others may have it, but that Madara is the only one who has been seen using his technique, so we can't just assume there are others who can, we must see them to confirm it. Who else in the Uchiha clan uses a Fire Release technique as strong as Madara's? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 03:28, January 17, 2012 (UTC))

Considering we've seen him use two Fire Release techniques (one of which was common) you're statement is premature and hyping him up. For starters, part of the reason that his Fire Release: Great Fire Majestic Annihilation required several attacks to neutralize it was because of its "huge reach". Also, you're statement is incorrect as Kakuzu would be considered the "greatest Fire Release user" because of the far greater reach of his Fire Release: Intelligent Hard Work if we went by your logic. Here's what I'm basically thinking you're trying to say: Because Madara used a strong Fire Release technique that required several ninja to counter primarily because of its reach that he's the greatest user of that nature in his clan and elsewhere. This=/=logic. Skitts (talk) 03:47, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Leave Kakuzu out of this. He is irrelevant. I was talking about Madara being the best in his clan all this time, not the best in the series. And also the power of Madara's technique is intense since absolutely all the water those four used was evaporated in putting it out. I'm asking that since nobody else in the Uchiha clan has been shown to use that aatack, and since the attack is as intense as it is, would it be inappropriate to say Madara is the most proficient Fire Release user in the UCHIHA CLAN, not in the whole series, until someone else in the clan is shown to use Fire Release: Great Fire Majestic Annihilation. Fugaku's Great Fireball technique was not as big as Madara's Majestic Annihilation, so all in all Fugaku was not as proficient as Madara from what has been seen of him. Nobody in the clan has been due to the lesser scales of the techniques the few we've seen were able to do. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 13:46, January 17, 2012 (UTC))

"In terms of nature transformation, nobody, Uchiha or otherwise, has used a Fire Release technique as strong as his." That's why I brought up Kakuzu. And again, the fact that we've seen the Uchiha affiliated with one Fire Release technique makes this premature. First of all, this is your opinion based off a single attack. Secondly, we don't state things like this unless they were confirmed in the series. For example, if we went by the logic you're using, we'd say that Kisame is the greatest Water manipulator in the series because of the scale of his Water Release: Great Exploding Water Colliding Wave, despite the fact that Tobirama was already stated to be it. Skitts (talk) 15:26, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

I didn't use the right words before, but what I was thinking was that he was the greatest of the Uchiha. Of all the Uchiha clan, Madara is known as the strongest. Given we know Tobi is a liar, Madara is the strongest. I didn't mean to not correct myself. No Uchiha clan member has used a Fire Release technique as strong or huge as Madara. Other people may have Majestic Fire Annihilation, but until its shown, we can only say Madara does for a fact. We can't go by what we don't see. And I said before that all the water in the Water Encampment wall techniques used to counter Madara were evaporated and that every Uchiha we've seen use a fire Release technique was not as proficient as Madara. Would it hurt to note him as the most proficient Fire Release user in the Uchiha clan until other members are shown to be even more. Madara is the strongest Uchiha afterall. He probably didn't become known as that just for his mastery of genetic inheritance. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 15:56, January 17, 2012 (UTC))

Like I said in my last post, as far as I know, we don't list things to the effect of "(Insert ninja here) is the greatest at (some skill)" unless it was directly stated somewhere. Skitts (talk) 16:02, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but Tobirama was stated to be the best in the whole series and was because of his abilities. I'm not saying Madara's the best in the whole series at the Fire Release, just the best within the Uchiha clan. Kakuzu would be the best series wise. And Madara has been stated to be the best within the Uchiha clan because he is called the strongest Uchiha. I really don't think he would have been called that for just mastery over genetic inheritance. He is probably the best at everything the Uchiha do. Because Madara is called the strongest Uchiha, would it hurt to note him as the most proficient at the Fire Release among the Uchiha since his technique has not been shown to be held by anyone in the clan but him? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 16:34, January 17, 2012 (UTC))

Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage and a master in all areas of shinobi combat, but that didn't make him better at everything than all past Hokage. Skitts (talk) 17:00, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Hiruzen was old and his chakra reserves were not what they were in his prime. In his prime, Hiruzen was the strongest of the five Kage. If he had been in his prime when Orochimaru made his attempt on the Leaf, he probably would have been much more formidable against Hashirama and Tobirama. Madara on the other hand still looks like he did in his prime and didn't seem to age after his battle with Hashirama. Maybe because of having his cells like Tobi. And Madara is even more powerful now than he was before his battle with Hashirama, and he is known as the strongest Uchiha. Since we can't assume there are techniques out there stronger than Majestic Annihilation because they haven't been seen or confirmed through speech, would it hurt to note Madara as the most proficient Uchiha clan member at the Fire Release? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 17:15, January 17, 2012 (UTC))

You misunderstood my point in bringing up Hiruzen. I was saying that even though he was the strongest of the Hokage, previous Hokage were better than him in some ways. Tobirama with Water Release, for example. Skitts (talk) 17:28, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

You have a point. But it should be noted that Hiruzen wasn't even shown to use Water Release. So yes, Tobirama is better than him at it. If Hiruzen had used it, who knows what it would have been like? And I acknowledge Kakuzu was better than Madara at Fire Release. However, of all the Fire Release techniques the Uchiha clan have been shown or confirmed to have used, Madara's is the strongest. Because Madara is the strongest Uchiha, would it hurt to note Madara as the most proficient Fire Release user among the Uchiha clan until someone else in the clan is shown or mentioned to have been able to use Majestic Annihilation better than him or to use an even more powerful technique? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 18:01, January 17, 2012 (UTC))

How did this move from a discussion on Madara and Katon to Water Release, Hiruzen and Tobirama? Both seem pointless to me especially when there's no evidence to support the fact that Madara is recognised as the most powerful Fire Release user in or outside of the Uchiha.--Cerez365™ 18:26, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I was trying to point out that being noted to be the strongest does not make one the best in every way. Skitts (talk) 18:40, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Your right, it doesn't. I'm sorry I seemed disrespectful. I didn't mean to. But even though being the strongest doesn't mean he is the best in every way, Madara is the only Uchiha who has used Fire Majestic Annihilation. Would it hurt to note he is the most proficient KNOWN user of the Fire Release in terms of Nature Transformation among the Uchiha clan until it is shown otherwise? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 19:04, January 17, 2012 (UTC))

@Cerez365 I didn't mean Madara is the best in the series, just in the Uchiha clan. I have corrected myself on that. And the fact that Fire Majestic Annihilation is larger and stronger than any Fire Release technique in terms of Nature Transformation that any Uchiha has been known or shown to have used is proof that Madara is the most proficient in Fire Release in that sense in his clan. Would it hurt to note he is until it is shown otherwise? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 20:14, January 17, 2012 (UTC))

But we haven't seen all the members or even a good enough percentage of them use fire release techniques for us to make that assumption... It is larger true, but I don't see why it's stronger. Just because it took more than one Suiton user to douse it does not necessarily mean that it was more powerful; that can be chalked up to the width of the technique. Using that train of thought I could easily say that Fugaku Uchiha's Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique would have probably require more that one Suiton user to douse and that Obito used the most powerful Katon since it actually incinerated bamboo. Speculations lke these can be made ll the time, that's why for things like this, sources are required. Something along the lines of someone actually saying that he is the most powerful fire release user would be nice.--Cerez365™ 20:23, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Why Madara's is probably stronger is because every drop of water from the four Water Encampment Wall techniques used to douse it was evaporated. Thats how hot the fire was. If Madara's attack hadn't been doused in time, it would have swallowed up and incinerated 16 shinobi. And yes we haven't seen enough for an assumption like that to be made, so I'm asking would it be inappropriate to note him as the most proficient KNOWN or SHOWN member until we see otherwise? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 20:46, January 17, 2012 (UTC))

As has been said several times, we never list things like that unless it was stated in the series or from an official source. Skitts (talk) 20:48, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Yes it would be, since he's used one technique — one time which can be argued to be the biggest/strongest technique seen. I know you're apparently a fanboy of Madara's but unless they explicitly say "Madara is the greatest katon user" something like that has no substantiated claim.--Cerez365™ 20:52, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

@Skitts and @Cerez365 So even if it is shown, unless its stated in the series or an official source, it doesn't count? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 21:03, January 17, 2012 (UTC))

Though, I don't see how his use of one technique, which wasn't even that impressive in my opinion, shows that he is the most proficient user of fire release. We also tend not to do say such temporary things such as "of all the known..." especially when there's no evidence to support the statement.--Cerez365™ 21:08, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

The way you have it written is like I'm saying he is the best in the series. I'm saying he is the best in the Uchiha clan at the Fire Release. And there is physical evidence that his is very strong. Where the technique is shown to have been evaporated, there is no water whatsoever on ground. You have to look on the whole page to see that, but there isn't. That is physical evidence backing up what I said because the fire was so hot, all the water was turned into steam. And since the Uchiha clan is almost totally extinct, would it hurt to use that temporary statement in this one case, since there probably would be too many more inquires about about the Uchiha? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 21:25, January 17, 2012 (UTC))
 * And I'm saying that assumption cannot be made through the use of one technique. You keep talking about the water evaporating as if it should have? That's what normally happens when water is heated... When has any other Uchiha's fire release (or even used the same technique) been contested with a water release for the assumption that his is stronger been drawn? Even if they are extinct, if Kishimoto had intended Madara to be noted as the greatest fire release user, he would have had someone say it in the same manner that he had us know that Tokuma has the strongest Byakugan in the Hyūga clan. It's still possible that somewhere along the line he'll tell us that either some unknown or even one of the known, deceased members was the most proficient fire release user. Whether or not he is the best known user even at this point can be easily debated.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 21:37, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

I didn't mean it like the water should have evaporated, but like it surprised me that every individual drop of water from four, not just one, but four Water Encampment Wall techniques together was totally evaporated. I was. The fact that there was no water left after that, even though Madara's attack is huge, is impressive don't you think? Is that physical evidence unusable? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 21:57, January 17, 2012 (UTC))
 * Impressive, but still not enough to say that he is the most proficient in Katon techniques of the Uchiha. Like I said before stuff like that won't be used here unless you can site stated evidence.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 22:02, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Very well, then. We'll leave this subject be until there is some. In regards to my being a big fan of Madara, yes I am. He is one of my favorite characters in the series along with Naruto, Sasuke, and Gaara. Don't ask me why. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 00:17, January 18, 2012 (UTC))

How was he "improved"
How did Kabuto "improve" Madara? Also what's underneath Madara's shirt?
 * We don't know.
 * We don't know. It might be Hashirama's face, like on Danzo's arm. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 06:52, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

All we know is that whatever is on his torso cause Madara to say that Kabuto had prepared well. Skitts (talk) 06:56, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it's Hashirama's face on Madara's chest for at least two reasons.
 * 1) he worked with Orochimaru to get Hashirama's cells in his right arm and I can't help but think it was a "failure" of some sort. And
 * 2) Madara would NOT be happy about his mosted hated rival's face on his chest.

I believe it is perhaps a scar or something?(173.171.77.245 (talk) 03:47, February 5, 2012 (UTC))


 * 1) Danzō Shimura not Madara?
 * 2) You'd be surprised at the compromises people will make to attain what they want.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 10:36, February 5, 2012 (UTC)

LOL! Yeah, Danzo XD forgot to put his name in, haha. And true, but I really don't think Madara would want that man's face on him. It's just a theory and my opinion...and praying to God it isn't that man's face XD (173.171.77.245 (talk) 10:29, February 6, 2012 (UTC))

it could be his physical capabilities were improved, think about it if he knew Nagato then he'd at least have been as old as the third Hokage was, and no matter how skilled he was he countered A's speed and strength, which personally i dont think a normal human body-even an Edo tensei body, could do on it's own 10:55, february 6, 2012

I don't think anyone would want another face growing out of any part of their body fixing to take over their entire being at any time. What exactly was improved is still unknown especially since we don't have any prior incidences to compare it to except for the events that created an entire valley. Also, Susanoo is an ultimate defence, we've seen that it takes quite a bit to destroy it.--Cerez365™ 12:17, February 6, 2012 (UTC)

It has been confirmed, Madara has Hashirama's face on his chest. That's why i added Izanagi to the jutsu list. --ShenLong Kazama (talk) 12:56, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Madara's durability
It has been said that we know nothing of Madara's normal durability, but we have seen that he was able to survive the grave injuries he sustained during his final battle with Hashirama, one of which was being stabbed through his vital organs by a sword. We see this in Tobi's flashback as he said everyone thought Madara had died, even Hashirama. Would putting some recognition of this durability and vitality in his abilities section be wrong? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 18:54, January 21, 2012 (UTC))

We don't know how he survived, so stating it's becase he is durable is not proven. --Elveonora (talk) 14:18, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

Elements
Madara has awakened Rinnegan, so that means that he can manipulate every chakra's nature, that's what they said about Rinnegan (also he used Preta Path, so he knows very well like it works his power), so I thought that was right correct his chakra natures.
 * For the however much time, the Rinnegan allows you to master all FIVE BASIC NATURES whether or not the person wants to do that is up to them.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 16:13, January 25, 2012 (UTC)

Space Time Teleportation
Minato seemed to implied that Madara can do Space Time Teleportation in Chapter 501 (or 500, I can not remember the chapter number, should we put it in the article?--207.157.117.2 (talk) 15:56, January 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * He was talking about Tobi.--Deva 27 16:09, January 26, 2012 (UTC)

Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi
Why are we listing Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi under the list of Madara's abilities? We've never seen him use either, or hint that he has either. I don't recall it being a rule anywhere in the manga that Mangekyou Sharingan always comes with those abilities (I'd assume it doesn't, given that Kakashi and Shisui had differant abilities--and since Sasuke's genjutsu is confirmed to not be Tsukuyomi by Danzou).

As far as we know, even Sasuke only has Amaterasu because Itachi gave it to him. We haven't seen anything to confirm that its an actual inborn ability.

Obviously Susanowo seems to be a common ability to everyone, but until we actually see Madara shooting black fire or making people hallucinate 72 hours of torture, he shouldn't be listed with those powers.
 * Read /Archive 1, /Archive 1 and /Archive 1. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:20, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Wood Release
Apparently the Mokuton powers are not a result of him taking Hashirama's flesh but Orochimaru's own "enhancement" --Elveonora (talk) 15:13, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Edo Tensei works differently regarding in what form it revives the person. It's possible that Madara lost his implanted Senju's cells after resurrection, that's why Kabuto's (not Orochimaru's, that's bad translation, Orochimaru experimented with Danzo) enhancement became needed.Faust-RSI (talk) 16:17, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

And I doubt that even he could simply use Wood Release like that if he had never had prior to his resurrection. Skitts (talk) 16:43, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

What Kabuto is doing is based on Orochimaru's research. This chapter has proved that it's Kabuto's doing ... he even stated before that he want to try it out. Stating he had Wood Release and he lost it and Kabuto gave it again to him after resurrection is more speculative than what the manga actually shows. --Elveonora (talk) 22:52, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

It specifically says that he survived his battle with Hashirama and came away with Hashirama's cells. Granted, it doesn't say that he had implanted them before, but Tobi specifically attributed those actions to Madara, and since everything else Tobi has said about Madara turned out to be true, why wouldn't this part? 163.118.214.205 (talk) 04:06, February 25, 2012 (UTC)

Upgrade
wait, didn't madara get wood release on his own, by taking some of the first hokage's DNA during the battle at the valley of the end, then why does it say I'ts the result of Kabuto's experimenting?--76.92.243.71 (talk) 03:59, February 23, 2012 (UTC)

Where does it say that? It's mentioned that Kabuto enhanced Madara, not that he gave Madara wood release.--TricksterKing (talk) 04:41, February 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * When Kabuto says he improved Madara beyond his prime, Madara looks down his shirt and sees the Hashirama face. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 05:24, February 23, 2012 (UTC)

See topic above ... unless the translation is wrong, Kabuto/Oro enhanced Edo Madara with Hashirama's powers. --Elveonora (talk) 00:17, February 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * Eh we do know that Madara attained the First's DNA after the Valley of the End battle...but maybe it was thanks to Kabuto's experiments that he was able to perfect his use of them...in chapter 561 page 11 he mentions he wanted to try a new jutsu then he uses Wood Release meaning he either didn't use then before his ressurection, or that he didn't have enough mastery of it before. Darksusanoo (talk) 00:27, February 24, 2012 (UTC)

No, we don't know that. It was Tobi that mentioned "Madara took Hashirama's strength" during the fight with Konan. But seeing as he himself has Hashirama's flesh, it's unknown if he was talking about himself or Madara. Madara stating he wants to try something out and Kabuto's statement are evidences clear enough in my opinion and less speculative than saying he had it before. There would be no reason for him too look at his chest after the statement of Kabuto about "enhacement/power beyond his prime" --Elveonora (talk) 00:48, February 24, 2012 (UTC)

Kabuto postulated that Madara himself had also taken some of Hashirama's DNA during their battle, to which Madara didn't refute. That question of Kabuto's is what caused him to look at his chest. We can't say that he didn't have Wood Release prior to his death because we don't know. But honestly think about it. Do you think he would just be able to whip out the two known largest scale Wood Release techniques with no prior possession of it? Skitts (talk) 01:44, February 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * It's not so much to do with possession, but mastery...Yamato and Danzo were two other that obtained the Wood Release but it pales in comparison with Madara's skill of it. It's more than proven that Madara gained the WR after the Valley battle. I'm saying that Kabuto's experiments on Edo Tensei Madara may have upgraded his use of it. WR has been shown to be one of the most difficult kekkei genkai powers to master. Darksusanoo (talk) 02:49, February 24, 2012 (UTC)

Soo...maybe it could be stated that one of Kabuto's upgrades was to enhance Madara's ability with the Wood Release...in between the fact that Madara already had it before his death, plus his conversation with Kabuto, plus Kabuto's own statements in the last chapter it's obvious that Kabuto enhanced Madara's use of the Wood Release. Any other opinions? Darksusanoo (talk) 03:16, February 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * Personally I think that there is an error of interpretation in that part of the Madara's article. Madara looks down his shirt when Kabuto speaking with him suggests he is not died in the battle against the First Hokage, but rather that he received part of his power after the duel ( http://i11.mangareader.net/naruto/561/naruto-2752561.jpg http://i4.mangareader.net/naruto/561/naruto-2752563.jpg ). Thinking about the words of Tobi to Konan and his Hashirama's clone, seems obvious that Kabuto was referring to the episode regarding the stolen cells of Hashirama in the fight of the valley of the end.


 * The upgrade of Kabuto on Madara (or at least part of this upgrade) regards the particular state of Edo Madara in comparison with the other Edo Tensei. We know that Madara is died when Nagato was alive, so late in his life. He said also that he has gained his rinnegan shortly before his death. Anyway Kabuto was able to resurrect Madara with all his abilities, included the rinnegan, but in his prime and not as an old man (and so physically more skilled), as it's possible to see a resurrected Madara young as when he fought in the valley of the end. It's an exception among all the Edo Tensei.--JK88 (talk) 20:01, February 26, 2012 (UTC)

@JK88 Madara may not have eaged over the decades due to his possession of Hashirama's cells. Tobi, from what has been seen of his face hasn't aged much if at all, so maybe Madara still looked the same. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 23:44, February 27, 2012 (UTC))

I have a better translation of that line: "Kabuto: Heheh... The prototype Orochimaru created in Danzou is nothing compared to this. The First Hokage, stronger than even Madara. The fusion of those two shinobi is my trump card!! No one can stop my Edo Tensei!!"
 * Q: So, in your translation Kabuto also didn't directly say that he created Madara/Hashirama fusion. Kabuto just says it's his fusion, which is only logical because he did summon Madara. So, all these discussions about the contradictions between Madara's and Kabuto's words were pointless?
 * A: I guess so. It's true that in the Japanese text Kabuto doesn't directly say that he's the one who fused them, but it doesn't necessarily rule that out. But yeah, that's not likely since that does contradict some earlier stuff.Faust-RSI (talk) 12:09, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

I'd just like to point out that whomever that anon was just ripped that translation from another user on a Naruto forum I was on. 'My translation' my foot. :X Skitts (talk) 20:25, March 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Where I said it was my translation? Can you even read? So you think I was talking with myself, questioning my own trans and answering myself what I had in mind? How much more stupid this can get? Read before posting.Faust-RSI (talk) 21:40, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

That was Faust-RSI, the post was signed. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:48, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

Madara Uchiha
Hey, I just wanted to say this, but Madara's page has not been updated.
 * Yes, it has. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:38, February 24, 2012 (UTC)

New Ability (Anime Only)
In this video from the new game you can see Madara's fight against Hashirama and you can cleary see that Madara can rewind time for a few seconds, i think this should be added as a Anime only technique, calling it Time Regression. --ShenLong Kazama (talk) 00:05, February 25, 2012 (UTC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFzGNNummXg&feature=related


 * I agree, and add that he can use Wind Release cause i see he can do it with his fan XaleraUchiha (talk) 00:09, February 25, 2012 (UTC)

(E/C)Pretty sure that was representative of the Sharingan's ability to gather a glimpse of where a moving object/being will be in the near future, not time manipulation. Also, Game only stuff is the least cannon of all media. Skitts (talk) 00:10, February 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * What stance to take on this content is already being discussed here. Blackstar1 (talk) 00:11, February 25, 2012 (UTC)

On Narutoforums they discussed this aswell, it has been confirmed that Toei and Kishi worked together so it's probably canon, and as you can see clearly in the video Madara's EMS was used to rewind time. And the thing with predicitng the future, you are all wrong, read the manga again, you can clearly see that the Sasuke sees only the images of the opponent's next strike. So Madara's EMS can clearly rewind time. --ShenLong Kazama (talk) 13:52, February 25, 2012 (UTC)

I've seen nothing stating that. The closest thing to something like that being said is what Blackstar1 posted over on the talk page for the game about:
 * "In particular, the developers and animation studios have worked very closely together to create new content that will be considered canon, which adds up to around sixty minutes of additional anime content." —

This says nothing about Kishimoto's involvement only Hiroshi Matsuyama opinion, and thus its cannonicity is null until such a statement is found. Skitts (talk) 15:37, February 25, 2012 (UTC)

It would be put as game only and they're not mentioned on the users page. --Kotoamatsukami (talk) 15:01, February 27, 2012 (UTC)

So, Hashirama's jutsus are added, what about Madara's new jutsu?Patsoumas1995 (talk) 18:56, March 15, 2012 (UTC)

All techniques Madara has used in the manga are accounted for. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:35, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

I'm talking about the one in the OVA, which allows him to turn time back. Some believe that it's just him predicting the move, but there are people (like me) who view it as a new jutsu. I think that a page about it should be created, but with adding this "false information" box, or whatever it's called (like here: http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Wood_Release:_Stocks), and saying in Trivia that it could be Sharingan prediction. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 22:45, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

Discussion on that is still on-going, and that is a much more delicate issue than Yamato making a stock. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:55, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

Sasuke has done something 'similar' in chapter 402 when he viewed Itachi's last moments in reverse, but it be him simply viewing his memory in reverse. MJ (talk) 16:01, March 25, 2012 (UTC)

This was just Sasuke's flashback. I still insist adding the jutsu with a "false information" box, and writing in trivia that it could just be Sharingan prediction. Both sides will be happy, I believe.
 * This is something too speculative to even imply, in my opinion. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:56, March 26, 2012 (UTC)

Orochimaru's Influence
Kabute stated in the last manga that "what orochimaru created is on a completely different level from what danzou prototyped" when he was thinking about madara's abilities. But what does that mean ? the power to bring back the abilities with edo tensei or that orochimaru implanted hashirama's DNA and created this super-mega-powerful madara ?--177.33.99.148 (talk) 15:15, February 25, 2012 (UTC)


 * It's a mistranslation, the correct phrase is: "Heheh... The prototype Orochimaru created in Danzou is nothing compared to this." Source: http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=805317 --JK88 (talk) 09:58, February 27, 2012 (UTC)

Sexist?
Should we put in his info that he is somewhat a sexist? Obviously by the way he called Tsuande "a weak woman". I think this pretty much implies he finds all female ninja to be weaklings. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 17:41, February 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * But he praised Mei a bit earlier (albeit berating her right before that) To be honest Madara's not very coherent when it comes to anything Senju related but I don't think that one instance makes him sexist.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 17:47, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

Well, although he belittles Tsuande and puts her down for not being as strong as the First from whom she is descended from.. He ends it with "And above all you are a weak woman". I think it's pretty clear he thinks females are weak. He doesn't just say "You are a descendant of the Senju and you're weak female Senju". He separately says "You are a weak woman". If you get what I mean? SusanooUnleashed (talk) 17:52, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

Just sounds to me that he is calling her weak because her medic skills are no where near her grandfathers. In fact he did mention her senju heritage, "weak people are ugly, and weak senju are even more uglier", he is comparing her skills as a senju.Umishiru (talk) 19:13, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that Madara was being sexist (though this week's chapter did feel oddly translated). What I understood is that Tsunade is a weak woman because he sees her as a weak Senju, not that she's weak because she's a woman. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:43, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

Madara and Wind Release
Where in the anime was Madara shown to posses Wind Release. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 19:46, March 2, 2012 (UTC))


 * In that animated sequence in Naruto Shippūden: Ultimate Ninja Storm Generations. Apparently the anime team was collaborated with and as such they consider canon as far as the anime is concerned. Skitts (talk) 19:49, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

It is from the NS:UNSG anime content with his gunbai, even if for me, he doesn't use wind release and it is his gunbai who generate wind. All your answers and why we treat the content as anime canon is here -> Talk:Naruto_Shippūden:_Ultimate_Ninja_Storm_Generations. Light-Revan (talk) 19:53, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

Is it really necessary to note that in what elements he uses on his profile? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 20:00, March 2, 2012 (UTC))


 * Yes. We do it for everyone else. I think it should be noted that he uses a fan to create the wind, like how we did with Temari. Joshbl56  20:07, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

I remove it until we have a real debate about this. For me, I don't think Madara is a wind user. His gunbai itself can generate wind, like Hōki's sword or Shura's umbrella generate fire, Aoi's umbrella generate water or the Bashōsen generate earth, fire, lightning, water and wind.

Madara just creates a gust of wind like any large fan can do so, and he showed no other technique with it that requiring an ability in wind release, like a wind manipulation into something else, as would Temari with his fan. Light-Revan (talk) 20:11, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

I think there's a clear similarity between what Madara and Temari have done with their respective fans. It is definitely Wind Release. Just as Temari is able to utilize her fan in her Futon techniques, it's quite obvious that Madara did the exact same thing in that OVA. Skitts (talk) 20:18, March 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * her. Temari is a chick. Also, the gust of wind he used repeled around 5 ninjas. I doubt his fan, with the size it is, can do that. I had more but Skitts got to it before me >.<. Joshbl56  20:20, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

I also believe that what that fan did was Wind Release. It's no different from what Temari does. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:48, March 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * All right, you've convinced me =). I put him back wind user. Light-Revan (talk) 23:23, March 2, 2012 (UTC)

I support adding him as a wind release user for the following reasons: EDIT: This is kinda similar to Kurama/Naruto transformed using Wind and Fire release in anime ... it's mentioned, yet it's just anime only thus not canonical. This Madara case is more convincing than the Kurama one due to the Gunbai's usage never shown in manga this the anime giving it some explanation. Even if it's not canonical, the animators have tried to make it seem feasible and if the Kurama case was approved which makes much less sense than this, why not ? --Elveonora (talk) 00:48, March 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * it's "anime only" thus it has no weight on manga
 * As he has Rinnegan, we will possibly see him using it one way or the other

So to add or not to add, that's the question. --Elveonora (talk) 23:48, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

I'll see if I can word it well enough. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:32, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

Madara's Death
It hasn't been directly confirmed by Madara Uchiha himself that he survived Hashirama's battle; he simply stays silent when Kabuto asks for confirmation. Shouldn't his death be questioned rather than giving a straight answer? I don't think we should be jumping to conclusions until he himself states it.

Also, just because he was able to perform the Wood Release techniques flawelessly doesn't necessarily mean he's had experience with them prior to his resurrection. It's certainly possible that he memorized all of the hand seals with his numerous encounters with Hashirama decades ago. Someone also brought up that he mentioned he wanted to try the technique, implying that it was his first attempt. Not to mention he refers to their legendary battle in the Valley of the End as "a fight to the death." --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 22:38, March 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, as Madara said, "I fought that battle to gain access to that guy's abilities". Also the fact that he knew or knew of Nagato and his pos.ession of the Rinnegan. In regards to Wood Release, think about it. The fact that he had Hashirama's DNA for decades means he had plenty of time to train with it. Memorizing hand seals has little to no relevance here, considering thus far the one's he's used only required him using a single seal. And fight to the death simply means they went all out and the last one standing was the victor. One doesn't have to die, seeing as trickery can be used to escape if victory cannot be had.Skitts (talk) 01:28, March 7, 2012 (UTC)

The masked man said that, not Madara, and apparently this wikia doesn't take anything Tobi says for granted when it involves Madara seeing as he's a "liar." If Madara lived to even see Nagato's birth, he would be around 40 years older, but his appearance is identical to when he fought in the Valley of the End, and Edo Tensei resurrects all shinobi into the state they were in right up to their death (with the exception of ocular powers and so forth). Besides, if Hashirama didn't kill him, then who actually possessed the caliber of power to kill the omnipotent Madara Uchiha? And why would he praise the First as much as he does? Given Madara's arrogance and pride, he would've responded to Kabuto with some cocky confirmation, not stay silent.

Regardless, there is no definite proof that Hashirama killed him, and it's merely assumption to say otherwise until Madara (or Hashirama somehow) speaks the words himself.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 02:08, March 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * Madara has already spoken his words. He said he knew Nagato. I don't see anything to discuss here. Madara looks young because his Edo Tensei is "special" and he is resurrected "beyond his prime". That's all in the manga. End of story.Faust-RSI (talk) 06:19, March 7, 2012 (UTC)

It isn't that simple. The "beyond his prime" statement is referring to Kabuto and Orochimaru's experimentation by implanting Hashirama's DNA and face into his body. There haven't been any other details of the Edo Tensei itself differing from the other shinobi resurrected by the technique. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 06:44, March 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * "The "beyond his prime" statement is referring to Kabuto and Orochimaru's experimentation by implanting Hashirama's DNA and face into his body." - where did you get this from?Faust-RSI (talk) 06:48, March 7, 2012 (UTC)

Have you not been reading the manga? When Kabuto talked about the "reunion" of Hashirama and Madara in one, he meant that Madara now had access to, presumably, all of the First Hokage's abilities due to the experimentation of himself and Orochimaru. This is what he is referring to when he states Madara is "beyond his prime."--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 00:57, March 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * You should read the proper translations before posting such things.Faust-RSI (talk) 06:31, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

Uh...ok? Kabuto has been babbling about how Orochimaru's creation, which is essentially Madara, is unlike anything for a couple of chapters. Never has anything other than the infusing of Hashirama's DNA been mentioned when talking about him being beyond his prime.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 01:42, March 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Did you even read what I had said? This translation is incorrect.Faust-RSI (talk) 17:00, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

@Uchiha Suraku Madara may not have aged after his battle with Hashirama due to the fact that he had his cells. They might have enabled him to stay young and alive longer just like Tobi. From what we've seen of Tobi's face, he has very little wrinkles. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 00:46, March 12, 2012 (UTC))

Not aging whatsoever and "slightly" aging are two completely different circumstances. Either way, it seems that Hashirama's cells do not cease someone from becoming older altogether, or else Tobi would be void of all wrinkles. Aside from Madara's physical appearance, what about his armor? Did his armor survive decades of would-be deterioration? I know the same concept can be applied to Tobi's robes, but he either kept them in storage like he does with the many Sharingan he has in his laboratory or they are fairly new (along with his different colored gunbai). There's still no irrefutable proof that Madara survived Hashirama's battle. Him knowing of Nagato's existence is controversial, and I find it hard to believe that Madara or Tobi implanted his eyes into him at such a young age, especially when it's such a risky procedure.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 18:57, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

The very fact that he did know Nagato is proof he didn't die. Nagato was born decades after the fight with Hashirama. As to his armor, Madara could possibly have made new suites of armor throughout the years, or preserved them as you said. Madara did not die when he fought with Hashirama. Madara may very well have been the one who gave Nagato the Rinnegan and the fact that Nagato's was always active can be presented as proof of the implantment because implanted dojutsu are always active. Madara can deactivate his Rinnegan at will. How he gave Nagato the Rinnegan may have been that he took some DNA from himself with his Rinnegan active, infused it with his chakra, and implanted it into Nagato's eyes which might have caused them to mutate into the Rinnegan. As to Madara not aging, he has done more with Hashirama's DNA than Tobi, so he may have been able to augment his body better and not age at all. Along with this his not aging might have been that he was stronger than Tobi and could do more with Hashirama's DNA than the latter. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 17:01, March 15, 2012 (UTC))

I don't think it can be said Madara possessed Hashirama's DNA longer than Tobi considering Tobi is still alive, has a living clone of Hashirama that he has been harvesting for some time to create 100,000 Zetsus, and is evidently utilizing the cells to replace his limbs and so forth.

Nonetheless, what irrefutable evidence is there that suggests he was able to use Wood Release prior to his resurrection? He's never been seen doing so in any of the flashbacks nor stated he was capable of performing Hashirama's techniques before his death.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 06:46, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

I never said he had the DNA longer than Tobi. Tobi admitted he is weaker than Madara, so he probably can't do as much as Madara can with it. The level that Madara can use the Wood Release on is on a totally different level than Danzo and Yamato. His is stronger and can create forests in an instant, similar to Hashirama's use of it. You don't get that way in an instant. It takes practice. No doubt his stronger than typical Uchiha chakra help with that. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 12:40, March 16, 2012 (UTC))

We've also yet to see hardly any of Tobi's abilities as he's always using third parties in combat, but my point stands that from what has been shown, he has more experience with the First's DNA than Madara, who can only use the Mokuton techniques because of the experimentation by Orochimaru and Kabuto.

That's beside the point. From what has been displayed in the manga, Madara never used any of Hashirama's abilities before he was resurrected. Though, at this point, it doesn't seem to matter because no one is going to do anything about it.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 23:31, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

When Madara used the Wood Release, it was on a greater scale than Yamato and Danzo. He can use it on the same level as Hashirama. That wouldn't be if he was only able to use it after Kabuto experimented on him. He had it prior or he wouldn't have been able to use it like that. What proof do you have that Madara didn't have it prior to resurrection? He confirmed Kabuto was right as he did some studying on Madara's body and learned he had Hashirama's DNA. Thats what Kabuto said. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 02:39, March 18, 2012 (UTC))

Izuna's Eyes
As soon as I read the statement "After my brother died, he only left me his eyes and their power", I knew it would be misinterpreted. Madara is saying all that remained of Izuna after his death were his eyes and their power (with Madara), not that he took the eyes after death. I honestly can't stand these poor translations...--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 00:52, March 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Talk:Izuna Uchiha--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 00:56, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

The way it's worded in the article makes it seem like it was thought that Izuna died before giving up his eyes.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 00:59, March 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Fixed. I'm not even sure why that was mentioned any at all.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 01:21, March 8, 2012 (UTC)

Manga Only
Didn't Madara only show Wood Release (Water and Earth Release also included) only in the manga? Why isn't there a manga only sign in front of those elements in his infobox? 119.154.48.135 (talk) 05:35, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

We only put Anime Only in front of elements if they don't show up in the manga, the anime follows the manga so those elements will show up in the anime eventually.--TricksterKing (talk) 06:20, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

The manga only tag is only added if, after it's animated, they leave it out entirely, like Orochimaru's use of shadow clones or the Sexy: Boy on Boy Technique.--Cerez365™ 19:58, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

Mayfly
Did anyone notice that when madara was coming up from the tree or branch, that the technique was similar to the mayfly that zetsu used. shouldnt it be added to the list of techniques? Vmejia (talk) 00:13, March 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * It's not Mayfly (at least I wouldn't cross that boundary esp. since we're not listing Zetsu's techniques as Wood Release just yet) it's just him coming out of a root. People have demonstrated the ability to merge with their own (elemental techniques) It's no different than hiding in the earth/--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 00:16, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Possibly Earth Release --Elveonora (talk) 01:54, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Wind Release
Which shows that he learns to release the Wind? --Samemaru 00:27, March 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * The Rinnegan allows the user to automatically learn all of the natures. --KiumaruHamachi (talk) 00:30, March 15, 2012 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi
 * Possibility doesn't mean that they will. He "used" it in Naruto Shippūden: Ultimate Ninja Storm Generations OVA (which is being considered anime material) with his Gunbai.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 00:32, March 15, 2012 (UTC)

wind release technique
/shouldn't we give a name to the wind release technique that he used?--76.92.243.71 (talk) 23:27, March 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Why O.o He just swings his fan doesn't he?...--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 23:30, March 15, 2012 (UTC)

How about we give the technique the name Wind Release: Gunbai Shockwave? Seems appropriate. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 15:18, March 27, 2012 (UTC))

I think the mention of it is enough. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:14, March 28, 2012 (UTC)

hidden in wood?
welll...could we make a technique called hidden in wood since he was shown to be able to merge with wood...Inhale (talk) 22:35, March 30, 2012 (UTC)