Talk:Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki/Archive 2

Chakra natures
Is the information that Rinnegan gives the user ability to master all basic chakra natures enough to put them in his infobox?--LeafShinobi (talk) 16:51, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * No, but the fact that he created ninjutsu is enough to put it there.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 17:12, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * He discovered the mysteries of chakra. Considering that after the Sage, Madara is the earliest known user of the Rinnegan, and that people already fabled the Rinnegan as allowing one to use the five natures, it makes sense for him to be listed as having them. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:37, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

Not to mention he created that Banana Fan thingamajig. I don't think he could've made that without knowing them. Skitts (talk) 18:29, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

Rinnegan
Are we really sure that Sage had the Rinnegan before becoming a host ? I think it's a speculation.--Elveonora (talk) 16:07, November 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * The problem with that statement is that we've only seen him with the Rinnegan. Joshbl56  18:17, November 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't understand how the two incidents are related? The eldest son wouldn't have inherited a dōjutsu if that were the case, tailed beast skills aren't hereditary.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 18:20, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Are you sure ? Naruto and Gaara are affected by their Tailed Beasts and tell this to Uchiha. Ten-Tails has eye that looks like Sharingan, if having a tailed beast is not hereditary, then there would be no Sharingan in Uchiha. Unless Sage had Sharingan as well. --Elveonora (talk) 19:02, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure given the information we have currently. Naruto and "Gaara" (to some extent though his father has the same eyes so I can't speak 100% about the rings or even his abilities) gained physical traits from their beasts, not otherwise. There is Rōshi but at the same time we don't know if he'd be able to use it without the beast. The Sharingan is an "offspring" of the original and apparently only dōjutsu: the Rinnegan. We've even seen where Kabuto has said "what lies beyond the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan..." It seems like somewhere along the line on descendants the eyes changed etc. The Jūbi's eye cab look like all three of the great dōjutsu if you wanted it to.--Cerez365™ 19:16, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

We are at least pretty sure (at least now) that Sharingan is from Ten-Tails, unless as I said it would mean that Sage had both. That would really make him a God. I don't think he had any eye powers before of becoming a host, that's why I'm discussing this and why the page is speculative saying he found jutsu thanks to Rinnegan. --Elveonora (talk) 19:22, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

I would like to hear more people's opinions on this and admin's as well. --Elveonora (talk) 20:27, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

I think that saying he got the Rinnegan because he became a host is highly speculative. We've known him as having the kekkei genkai for much longer than him having the beast. Like it was said already, there we've never seen him without the Rinnegan, or at least awakening it for the first time. Considering what we know about it, I think it's least speculative to say he had it before. While sealing the Ten-Tails is a big feat, he is first and foremost known for discovering chakra and creating what came to be called ninjutsu. To seal something, use of fūinjutsu is required, ergo, we would have had to discover ninjutsu before sealing the Ten-Tails. The Rinnegan was said to allow one to use all sorts of ninjutsu. This leads me to him having the Rinnegan before sealing the Ten-Tails. I'm not saying the other way is impossible, but it would require more explanation, so this sounds much more likely to me. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:01, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

Rinnegan has no genjutsu powers we know of. That would make it as rare as Wood Release Thinking that the 2 most powerful abilities (Sharingan and Rinnegan) in Narutoverse are just a mere mutation is silly. So6p being really a demi-God is possible. As I said, Uchiha are descended from So6p ... they possess the Sharingan. People say that Sage casted a genjutsu on Ten-Tails and thats why its eyes has the Rinnegan like pattern. As I said, there are no genjutsu powers of Rinnegan we know of. That would still mean that Sharingan is from Ten-Tails and that Tailed Beast powers are hereditary. Another but weird possibility is that Sage's original eyes were Sharingan and he get the Rinnegan from Ten-Tails. It would be much more believable one of his sons inherited the eyes from him and not from the beast inside of him. --Elveonora (talk) 22:39, November 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * And we know Ice Release, Wood Release much longer that them being a KKG.
 * We have not seen Nagato's eyes without the Rinnegan as well
 * We have not seen So6p awakening it, seriously ? We have not yet seen him at all other than the silhouette.
 * Madara can switch between the Rinnegan and EMS ... and turn them on and off.
 * The point being that the Rinnegan and Sharingan are the one and same eyes, meaning that Sharingan has not devolved from Rinnegan nor evolved.
 * Kabuto said it's a natural evolution meaning it's possible to attain the Rinnegan from a Sharingan by normal but unknown means.
 * Taking Hashirama's cells is a forced evolution.
 * When Rinnegan and Sharingan were once basically the same, this mean Sage had a Sharingan as well.
 * This would mean that the Ten-Tail's single unique eye is not unique at all and it was just a result of being under So6p's genjutsu.
 * If Sage was born with the Rinnegan, it must really be just a mutation as Kakashi said.
 * Or Sage was really a demi-God
 * Or the most possible variant is he get that from Ten-Tails.

-Ahem- Not a forum. Anyway, the Sage did not have the Sharingan. I don't have to theorize or anything to state that. His son had his own dojutsu, which was visually very similar to the Rinnegan. The Sharingan evolved from the Elder Son's dojutus, ergo it is very odd to say the Sage had it. And I too find it very unlikely and much less speculative to say he had the Rinnegan before the Jubi sealing. Being able to see chakra would definitely be a big help in divining the mysteries of chakra, which he did. Skitts (talk) 22:43, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

Read again please. If Rinnegan is a natural evolution from Sharingan, this would make Sharingan a degradation. If Uchiha got the Sharingan from Ten-Tails, this mean it's not related to Rinnegan since you say Sage had it before sealing thus it cant be an degradation nor evolution of it. If Sage had both Sharingan and Rinnegan before sealing, this would make it more believable that one of his son's line inherited the eyes from Sage rather than fron the Ten-Tails ... but this would leave the Ten-Tail's without any kind of unique eye thus the only possible version is Sage getting an eye technique after the sealing. And I know its not a forum ... I'm discussing it to improve the page. Saying Sage found chakra/jutsu thanks to being born with Rinnegan was not confirmed and it's more of a speculation to what Im saying. --Elveonora (talk) 23:10, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

Except it isn't speculative and I did read your post properly. Several things are being assumed, such as that the Sage didn't have his sons before he was a jinchuuricki and that the Uchiha's possession of the Sharingan is related to the Jubi. I didn't say that the Rinnegan was the sole reason the Sage mastered the use of chakra, and even if I had, that wouldn't have been nearly as speculative as saying he had the Sharingan or whatever. We all know that the 3 dojutsu give varying degrees of chakra sight. Also, he learned to make use of chakra through ninjutsu before he sealed the Jubi (duh). Also, you're assuming that the evolution of a particular bodily function is automatically better than its previous incarnation, which is incorrect. Skitts (talk) 23:31, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry then, but you see this point. Ten-Tail's eye look like a combination of both Sharingan and Rinnegan. If it was due to Beast being uder Sage's genjutsu, Sage had Sharingan as well or Sage's Rinnegan was with genjutsu powers. If he had just Rinnegan, Sharingan is from Ten-Tails. If Sharingan is from Ten-Tails, can't be a lower level of Rinnegan ... see my point ? :) If Rinnegan is an evolution from Sharingan, and Sage got Rinnegan before ... then Ten-Tail's has no special eye and this mean Sage had Sharingan as well. But you disagree with Sage having a Sharingan thus my "speculation" being plausible. --Elveonora (talk) 23:35, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

If the Sage had the Rinnegan and the Ten-Tails had the Sharingan, why would it be "higher" than the Rinnegan? The Sage did seal the Ten-Tails, so wouldn't that put the powers of the Rinnegan above the powers of the Sharingan? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:45, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

Yes. that's why I'm saying both Sharingan and Rinnegan stemms from 1 source, if it's Sage or Ten-Tails ... dunno. But I'm saying Ten-Tails. EDIT: Unless your question is if it's from the same source, why is Rinnegan stronger than Sharingan. Not really, EMS and Rinnegan are more or less equal in power. No reason to compare, that would be like comparing Sage Mode and Rikudou Mode. Not have much with the topic. --Elveonora (talk) 00:01, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

I don't mean to interrupt, but who says the Ten-Tails has to have a special eye? Who says that the Sharingan can't be evolved from the Rinnegan? Some snakes developed gills to leave in the sea, but lost the lungs. What if the Sage's son that inherited his eyes had the Rinnegan, but his children lost the Rinnegan and developed the Sharingan because of the world not needing such power? It is said in a legend that a user with the Rinnegan only comes in times of need, who would destroy the world, or create a better world, for example, Nagato. Nagato was the "god of creation" that the legend talked about, although instead of creating a better world himself, he helped make a huge step in creating a better one. What I'm saying is that you are all speculating that the Ten-Tails needs a special eye. I do not read much of the manga, but thanks to your wiki and the anime I have been able to conclude all this. Like Nagato, I hope that this helps to create a world of understanding within the wiki. Max042599 (talk) 00:50, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

thanks for being part of the discussion, but the point being is that if the Ten-Tails has no such eye and it was all just a reflection of Sage's eyes, he had Sharingan as well. If the Ten-Tail's original eye was Rinnegan, Sage had Sharingan. If the Ten-Tail's eye was a Sharingan, Sage had Rinnegan. But then Rinnegan can't be a step from Sharingan if Sage had it before. Meaning there's only one source of eye techniques (Byakugan is a mystery to this) and I think it's Ten-Tails. If it's Sage, people won't accept he had a Sharingan as well and this would make less sense since Tobi need to be Ten-Tail's host to boost his eye powers. --Elveonora (talk) 01:05, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

So with this I'm going to go with the "this isn't a forum" speech because these theories aren't bettering any articles or getting us any where. We represent information as we see it, not based off theories or assumptions.--Cerez365™ 01:14, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Before ending this friendly discussion I would like to hear out ShounenSuki's opinion as well. I will no longer reply until further manga evidence then ... --Elveonora (talk) 01:40, November 30, 2011 (UTC)


 * My gods, this discussion has got out of hand… So if I'm not mistaken, it's about whether the Sage had the Rinnegan before becoming the Jūbi's jinchūriki, right? if so, the answer is really: we simply don't know.
 * I could speculate, of course. It is heavily implied that the Sage used his Rinnegan to develop ninjutsu, and he used ninjutsu to seal the Jūbi, hence he should have had the Rinnegan before beciming a jinchūriki. Still, we really won't know for certain until we're shown an image of the sage from before he had become a jinchūriki.
 * The connection between the Sharingan and the Rinnegan is still quite murky as well. We know the Rinnegan can be awakened from the Sharingan, but we don't know if this is entirely natural. Senju genes are most likely involved and who knows what other physical alterations. Still, the Sharingan does have Rinnegan potential, so to speak. However, this doesn't mean that the Sage had the Sharingan as well. It could very well be that the Rinnegan came first, only to slowly 'degrade' into the Sharingan over the centuries, while still carrying the potential to become a Rinnegan, if only when mixed with Senju genes. —ShounenSuki (talk 01:56, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Then if Sage had Rinnegan and it degraded into Sharingan generations later, and with Senju genes its possible to awake Rinnegan from Sharingan, then how is it that back then Ten-Tail's eye appeared with Sharingan pattern ? Sage would had it before or it was Ten-Tail's natural eye and the Rinnegan patern was because it was under Sage's control. Or both Sharingan and Rinnegan is Ten-Tail's original eye. Rinnegan could not degrade into Sharingan when it appeared even back then, so Sage had Sharingan/Rinnegan before or it was Ten-Tail's eye and he got that after sealing. I don't know if its that hard to understand what Im talking about ... english is not my native language but hopefully now you understand what I mean. So: --Elveonora (talk) 14:44, November 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sage had Rinnegan and Ten-Tails had Sharingan (It appeared with the Rinnegan pattern due to be under Sage's genjutsu) ... then how is it that Sharingan can turn into Rinnegan when the two are not related ? Uchiha possess Sharingan, this would indicate that Tailed Beast powers/features are hereditary and another problem is that Rinnegan has no know genjutsu powers.
 * Sage had Sharingan and Ten-Tails Rinnegan (It was under Sage Sharingan's genjutsu) "possible"
 * Sage had both Sharingan and Rinnegan and Ten-Tails was under his genjutsu. "possible"
 * Sage had none and gained them after becoming the host "I support this"

I'm sorry, and I realize this isn't supposed to be a forum-esqe thing, but I have to say something. Everyone seems to be forgetting some very important facts in regards to the Rin'negan.
 * First: The Rin'negan, unlike most other Doujutsu, affects the whole body. It manifests most visually in the eyes, but it's powers are not limited to the eyes themselves, mental functions, or chakra. The whole body is part of the Rin'negan. Evidence: The Six Paths.
 * Second: The Sharingan is an ability focused almost entirely upon the eyes and chakra - for the sake of this particular issue, we'll say that the Sharingan eyes focus more on the "spiritual" side of nin, gen, and taijutsu. By contrast, the Uzumaki and Senju strengths tend to deal either with the body or the physical side of chakra - in other words, they create solid things with chakra, like wood and chains, and have extended life spans and more robust bodies.
 * Third: Each of the Sage's two sons was said to have inherited a different part (or "half," if you will) of his power. The older son inherited his "eyes," his immense chakra and spiritual energy (see my second point), while the younger inherited his "body," his strong will and physical energy.

Therefore, neither the older or younger son alone is capable of using the Rin'negan. The same could be said of their descendants. In order to awaken the Rin'negan, a descendant of either son must have spliced or combined his genes or body with a descendant of the other son. In essence, they have to combine the Sage's spiritual energy with his physical energy (which equals - go figure - chakra) - his "eyes" with his "body". We must conclude, then, that the Sharingan as we know it is a mutation of the older son's eyes, and did not, in fact, exist before the Rin'negan. Whether or not the mutation of the Sharingan into its present form is a result of the Sage being a Jinchuuriki is irrelevant, because neither Madara nor Nagato had to become a Jinchuuriki in order to awaken the Rin'negan.

There is, in fact, evidence that the Rin'negan cannot be unlocked without the genes of both sons - the real Madara admitted that he didn't acheive his until just before his death, and that he had to absorb some of Hashirama's genes/DNA/powers first. Likewise, he also hinted that he had something to do with Nagato unlocking his Rin'negan, though what that might actually be is still a mystery that Kishimoto might never reveal.

On the issue of the Ten Tails, you're assuming that it had to be related to the Sage in some way or manner, and that its eye was either a reflection of the Sage's eye or his method of gaining the Rin'negan in the first place. You're coming up with a number of convoluted theories to explain the Juubi's eye in relation to the Sage's eyes, when in reality the simplest and least convoluted explanation is that they aren't related at all. I cannot explain how the Juubi has its one "ultimate" eye, but you must keep in mind that the Juubi, like the Bijuu later created from it, is a monstrous construct of chakra. Even with a physical body, that body is not limited in the same manner a human body would be, ergo it's entirely possible that it can have both the Sharingan and the Rin'negan at the same time. Or, far more likely, the only reason we assume that the Sharingan is involved is the comma marks along each of the eye's rings, when it may actually be that the Sharingan is not involved at all. In fact, it's almost certain that the Sharingan wasn't involved because the Sharingan as we know it did not exist at that time. We assume that the comma markings have some sort of significance, but it may simply be that they have no significance at all beyond something symbolic that we don't actually know.

Please, for the sake of my sanity, remember Occam's Razor. I really don't like to risk the wrath of the site's authority over some convoluted theories built on half-remembered knowledge.--James D. Fawkes (talk) 21:30, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with the long post above mine. But there IS simple explanation like “Occam's Razor” about the ten tails having both the Sharingan and Rin'negan. We all see in the “Naruto universe” the concept of mistakes. Example: Sarutobi didn’t kill Orochimaru ; Itachi with Sasuske etc. So we can presume that the Sage is also capable of mistakes. So with his “Creation of All things” technique, it is possible that he unwillingly created the Ten Tails. Or maybe at the beginning when he was still learning, something went wrong and the monster was created, probably from some dark part of his subconscious, or his nightmares. And there is a picture of the Sage where he has a necklace with six red magatama and on the back of his robe there were 9 magatama. So we have the two sides of the Ten Tails eye. And we can assume that the subconscious mimics reality so if it was created from him it would have that two characteristics. But this is thinking WAY outside the box.--Danchojack (talk) 00:12, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

nickname
Isn't "God" also Sage's nickname ? Kabuto said that with Madara he can touch a fragment of this God's power. --Elveonora (talk) 18:39, December 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * "God of Shinobi"?--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 18:48, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

Just "God" "God" is Nagato's nickname. Kabuto called Sage a God as well so I think it should be directed. --Elveonora (talk) 19:08, December 1, 2011 (UTC)


 * Just because his power was called 'the power of God' or 'the power of the Gods', doesn't mean that 'God' is his nickname. It just means that people considered his power to be like that of a god, which is why he was called the 'God of Shinobi'. The Sage himself was never simply called 'God'. Now the word 'god' looks all weird to me… —ShounenSuki (talk 22:10, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

"the power of this god" its a clear reference to him. Its not like "godly power" And why weird ? --Elveonora (talk) 22:21, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

Also, do you have something more to say to the Rinnegan stuff ? --Elveonora (talk) 22:34, December 1, 2011 (UTC)


 * I never said it wasn't a reference to the Sage. I just said that calling the power 'the power of (that) god' doesn't mean that the Sage was nicknamed simply 'god'. It just means that he was seen as a kind of god, hence his nickname 'God of Shinobi'.
 * As for the Rinnegan thing, I only have to add that just because the Jūbi had tomoe in his eye doesn't mean he had anything related to the Sharingan. The point of the matter is that we simply do not have enough information to draw any substantial conclusions about how the dōjutsu really relate to one another and what exactly the deal was with the Sage and the Jūbi. —ShounenSuki (talk 22:37, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough, --Elveonora (talk) 22:39, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

Spelling correction
Its Rokudo (Roku = six, do = path) not Rikudo (Riku = land/shore or agony of separation). Corrected it in the main article but not sure how to fix it in the side info box. --65.182.237.52 (talk) 06:57, December 27, 2011 (UTC) Abe ;)
 * Read Talk:Sage of the Six Paths/Archive 1. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:50, December 27, 2011 (UTC)

Wood Style
Why doesnt the sage of the six paths have Wood Style listed as one of his KKG? In chapter 510 Tobi stated the Sot6p was both clans and both bloodlines in one person. This would mean that both bloodlines are needed to gain the rinnengan.

98.80.108.193 (talk) 16:32, January 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Because Hashirama was the first person ever to have Wood Release, much later in history. Just because the Sage originated the line Wood Release appeared into, it doesn't mean he had. Bloodlines change over time. What you're asking is the equivalent of adding Sharingan to Tsunade, because like the Uchiha, she's also a descendent of the Sage. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:44, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

Maybe he had, maybe not ... sorry Omni, I just one comment. Kabuto commented on Madara being a fragment of Sage's power, so Sage should have it as well. Isn't it possible for something to appear dozen of generations later ? --Elveonora (talk) 19:23, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

No. Madara had the Rinnegan. Kabuto's statement was in regards to that, not Wood Release, which Madara didn't even use until after Kabuto made that statement. Hashirama was the original possessor of Wood Release. Skitts (talk) 19:43, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

"Hashirama was the original possessor of Wood Release" Yeah, until Kishi states otherwise. Hashirama is the original source just as Sharingan came from Byakugan and Rinnegan is a mutation. --Elveonora (talk) 20:46, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

Your Byakugan point came from Kakashi who himself said it was a rumor. This has been stated by characters in the series as fact. Your Rinnegan point is moot as it also comes from Kakashi, who believed the Sage to be a myth, which we knwo to be false becasuse of the Tailed Beasts referencing him and the fact that they named him (and the existence of the Naka Shrine Tablet.)Skitts (talk) 20:53, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

That was an example. The "fact" stays as long as not proven wrong or otherwise. For years Kyubi was some demon fox and as well as other Tailed Beasts evil, now they are just tinny pets. I think what OP is asking ... if Uchiha + Senju = So6p power/blood/Rinnegan whatever, that would mean when you take flesh from any random Senju not just Hashirama, you get the Rinnegan (this is not confirmed but likely) or just simply to "mimic" Sage's power/blood ?

It was always said that sharingan + HASHIRAMA'S power = power of So6p This would mean that Madara/Tobi/Sasuke/Any Uchiha taking Tobirama's flesh instead would result in So6p power, but this does not seems to be the case. --Elveonora (talk) 21:14, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

OP is saying that Wood Release should be in the Sage's infobox because Hashirama was his blood. Things were explained, and now you're just speculating. Elveonora, more often than not the discussions you take part into turn into forum talk. Please police yourself. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:18, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

(E/C) Pretty sure Hashirama is used because he's essentially the best his clan ever had or was said to have. I mean, he defeated Madara and Kurama alone, had the power of Wood Release, and could control several Tailed Beasts by himself. Wh would you choose anyone else? Noting in the series implies that the So6P had anything to do with Wood Release and everything has stated and shown that Hashirama is the original possessor of it.

Edit: Only the Kyubi and Shukaku were regarded as 'evil' in the series, and that was because of the former attack Konoha and the latter having extreme blood lust.. The other Tailed Beasts didn't get referenced or brought up until much later, and even then the weren't all said to be evil.Skitts (talk) 21:21, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

Let's end the forum talk. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:33, January 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Like I said, no more forum talk. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:51, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

All Kekkei Genkai
Wouldn't it make sense if the Sage had every known Kekkei Genkai? I mean, how else did it start.

The first hokage probably was the first to activate this style, not create it. Antonino200 (talk) 20:21, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

Hashirama was said to be the only possessor of Wood Release (naturally). And no, it wouldn't make any sense if he had every KKG. KKGs are a result of a certain combination of genes, and obviously the Sage didn't have every combination of genes, much less every KKG. Also, not a forum. Skitts (talk) 20:23, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

The Sage was never said to have given birth to humanity, he just taught them how to use chakra so no it doesn't make any sense.--Cerez365™ 20:29, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

Protection ?
This page keeps being vandalised. I think it might be good to protect all the pages with a lot of text on them or the pages concerning very important people in the series. --speysider (talk) 20:21, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

That popular mistranslation again
Could anyone provide me a link where Suki-senpai translated that famous mistranslation about two paths and all? People are still asking about it and I want to check if my own translation is correct. Seelentau 愛議 19:13, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Could you be a little more clear/detailed about the "two paths" thing O.o--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 19:20, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * He means that thing Tobi said to Konan about two paths being one, about having Hashirama and Madara's powers. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:22, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * To Konan yes O.o?--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 19:27, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes. Here, fourth panel. Seelentau 愛議 19:56, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry I totally overlooked Omni's bit about Konan. I must seem knockers =_= Any way I think you'll find what you want here?--Cerez365™ 20:01, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * That's it. Thank you very much. :) Seelentau 愛議 20:14, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Senjutsu
The Sage is called a "Sage" by name, but does that also mean that he knows Senjutsu? Roydon Namikaze (Talk) 20:14, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * As far as we know, no. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:40, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

So why Sage article mentions he does?Faust-RSI (talk) 09:49, March 1, 2014 (UTC)

Reference to Hashirama's DNA
It is said in the article that the Rinnegan manifested in Madara who acquired Hashirama's DNA. This seems to indicate that Senju or Senju related DNA is needed for awaken the Rinnegan. As it is not confirmed and just used to denote time, itis better to use Valley of the End.Undominanthybrid (talk) 15:38, May 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Huh? Skitts (talk) 17:15, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

I was saying that write along the lines of "The Rinnegan had manifested in Madara after the Battle at the Valley of End" and not" after acquiring Hashirama's DNAUndominanthybrid (talk) 17:24, May 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * That's incorrect though. Madara obtained the Rinnegan near his death after he had long since acquired Hashirama's DNA. Skitts (talk) 17:27, May 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Apparently it's hard to believe that the two lines that descended from the Sage can merge and recreate the dōjutsu... If there's a way to avoid saying after acquiring Senju DNA then I suppose we should.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 20:54, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

No replies? I am going to remove the Hashirama reference within two days.Undominanthybrid (talk) 13:47, May 15, 2012 (UTC)

Sharingan + Hashi stuff = Rinnegan is stil a pure speculation.--Elveonora (talk) 15:10, May 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Anyway, its removed now.Undominanthybrid (talk) 15:06, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

Wait, what? I'm going to have to undo that edit if what was done what I think was. Skitts (talk) 19:05, May 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Given that we were under threat Skitts, I took out the bit about Hashirama until we have confirmation since I searched for it and outside of the Creation of All Things Technique couldn't find anything tangible. Though I don't know what else Madara would be doing with his DNA...--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 19:13, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

Hashirama's power is to control Tailed Beasts and strong yang chakra/stamina I guess. Unless Kishi says that Rinnegan is unlocked with Hashi boob then it should not be implied.--Elveonora (talk) 22:24, May 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Psst. Hashirama has strong Physical energy, not Yang Chakra (which is a nature transformation). And it was fairly implied actually. Skitts (talk) 22:46, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

Yang chakra is physical energy ... yang release is something different and where was it implied ? --Elveonora (talk) 23:16, May 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yang Chakra is not Physical energy. Yang Release transforms chakra, giving it life-giving properties, which IS Yang Chakra. I'm not sure where you got it that the Release is not that chakra. Fire Chakra is Fire Release and so on. Physical energy makes up chakra, that's it. ^^ Anywho, I'm getting off topic. As to where it was implied, that's (somewhat) easy. When Kabuto was checking his theory with Edo Madara that he had survived his final confrontation with Hashirama and Madara and Kabuto both said that the entire point of that battle was to "gain access to Hashirama's power" and it was years in excess of him doing so when he awakened it. Of course, it wasn't directly stated, but Madara's acquisition of the Rinnegan was always surrounded by talk of his acquisition of Hashirama's DNA Skitts (talk) 00:07, May 20, 2012 (UTC)

We have argued about the Yin/Yang chakra (spiritual and physical energies) and Yin-Yang Release before and went nowhere ... Genjutsu = Yin Release (implied by Mizukage and makes sense, was thought before by fans) Uchiha inherited strong spiritual energy/chakra from So6p and are proficient in Genjutsu with Sharingan itself being strong tool of it. So6p was "Yin-Yang" and Elder-Younger son/Sasuke-Naruto are Yin-Yang to each other. Yin has a bit of Yang in it just like Yang has a bit of Yin in itself, because one can't exist without other as both make up reality. Yin being the space/time/idea/mind/soul and Yang what we call "real" or interactive stuff. Everyone has both physical and spiritual energies as they make up chakra. Fire natured chakra is not always fire release, for example Naruto has wind affinity but he has to TRANSFORM the chakra into wind (that's why it's called nature transformation, it changes the chakra's properties) so in order to perform Yin Release (genjutsu) one has to use Spiritual energy/Yin chakra and transform it into effect. To topic, I still think Kabuto himself has enhanced Edo Madara with Hashirama's power and that he didn't have it before. He would not be surprised about Hashirama's face on his chest and would not question Kabuto as of what he did to his body, not the mention Madara said "I want to try something out" ... People say: "He must have had the Wood Release before as he is skilled with it" that no argument as Kakashi was able to put Obito's Sharingan in use right after the transplantation and Madara fought Hashirama for YEARS so he has copied and memorized the techniques and has Rinnegan that allows him to easily learn chakra natures, with his powers, experience/skill and knowledge it shouldn't be a problem.--Elveonora (talk) 00:34, May 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * You're misunderstanding several concepts in the series:


 * Genjutsu being Yin Release has nothing to do with Hashirama having Yang Release or whatever. That doesn't even make sense outside of Tailed Beasts. Yin-Yang may very well be related to Physical/Spiritual energy, but they definitely aren't the same.


 * And Yin having a bit of Yang in it??? What? And we're not even sure if all Genjutsu are Yin Release as of yet.


 * An Affinity towards a certain nature is just that, an affinity. The chakra itself has no properties of that Nature. Chakra itself has no inherent Nature. It has to be transformed to obtain those properties. Naruto's chakra is NOT Wind Chakra, it's juust chakra. There is no such thing as "having" Yang Release in the way you're talking about aside from the Tailed Beasts, which were created by Yin-Yang Release anyway.


 * Never once was Madara surprised about his Hashi Boob. Not once. I just went back through the chapter. This is what happened: Kabuto mentions his progressing Madara passed his prime/altering his body, which caused Madara to look at his chest and say "Well, you've certainly prepared well." That's it.


 * Physical and Spiritual Energies make up ALL chakra. Please read the article on Chakra. It explains everything which I'm trying to get across to you.


 * There's a great difference between transplanting something and integrating someone's DNA into your own. Just look what happened to 59 of the 60 babies Orochimaru implanted Hashirama's DNA in to. Madara specifically noted (as did Kabuto) that the entire reason for their final fight was for Madara to gain Hashirama power.
 * If this is going to continue (the Yin-Yang talk), bring it to my talk page. We're cluttering this up. Skitts (talk) 01:02, May 20, 2012 (UTC)

Already replying to ur talkpage, I don't think you have even read properly my post, but okay ... --Elveonora (talk) 01:49, May 20, 2012 (UTC)

Excuse me, was it ever stated in the manga/databook that the SO6P is a ninja?--
 * What do you mean? He created ninjutsu→ ninja techniques. That alone connotes that the man was a shinobi even if not in the sense that it's used for now.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 11:37, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

Abilities
How could the Sage seal the Jubi on the moon since he is its jinchuruki, he need to have a stronger force of life (not to sepculate, but a equal force of Uzumaki clan) or is because of his imense power, my question have 2 bases: So, what of those two options is the correct. MaskedManMadara (talk) 16:03, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * After divide the power of Jubi in nine, he selaed himself along the biju while transformed, into the moon (what make him and Jubi have a pefect synchronism with each other).
 * He release Jubi from his body (which needs a stronger force of life like I already mentioned), divided its power in nine and sealed its body on moon (the most real evidence).

Most probably, the 2nd one.—


 * Or, considering we now know how broken Senju is, it is not beyond the realm of reason the Sage was even more broken, and just did things the way he wanted, what with him creating ninjutsu and all that.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:00, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

Goatee
Where the heck was it shown that he possessed a small goatee?! Kazama Arashi (talk) 04:44, April 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * The lower part of his face was seen in chapter 572 page 11. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 04:49, April 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * It seems I missed this in my original reading. Thanks for the quick reply! Kazama Arashi (talk) 07:03, April 14, 2013 (UTC)

It's too blurry to tell if it's a goatee--Elveonora (talk) 13:33, April 14, 2013 (UTC)

Debut
So, here's a question. At the moment, we list the Sage's debut as the chapter and episode where he was first mentioned, by Jiraiya, when the Rinnegan was introduced. Much later on, we actually see a bit of the Sage, in Kurama's flashback to his last days, just by side. I think it's a given that in chapters yet to come, we'll learn more about him, and see more about him. My question is: when the time comes, should we change the Sage's debut to the chapter/episode where he fully appears? It's what we did for Yahiko as far as his role as Deva Path went, and Nagato's debut was in the flashback. I believe a similar situation happened with Shisui. Are there other characters in similar situations? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:59, May 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, when you put it that way, we should. I mean, in the value of staying consistent, it would only be right to so.JaZZBaND (talk) 02:48, May 5, 2013 (UTC)

We keep a silhouette for ten-tails or not?--Elveonora (talk) 10:07, May 5, 2013 (UTC)

Not a shinobi
The page refers to Sage as a shinobi. This is incorrect as it was said by Jiraiya the sage was a monk, a priest of sorts. His teachings were the foundation of the shinobi world but it was never said, implied or hinted at he was a shinobi, so I think we should edit his page to accomodate his true occupation.--Reliops (talk) 01:47, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

Exactly, he was a monk who taught Ninshu. Ninshu over time became Ninjutsu. He was NOT a shinobi himself 96.241.55.117 (talk) 07:16, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

Not to mention Samurai came apparently first even. Ninja = a mercenary paid to murder other people, Sage was anything but that lol--Elveonora (talk) 14:49, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

Yup. This page should be edited appropriately. Who's up for it? I suppose I could if no one wants to.--Reliops (talk) 14:12, June 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * Not sure which part of the text you guys are referring to (?) Btw, he is known as --~ Ultimate  Supreme  14:19, June 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's true 0__0 forgot that one. So sorts of a "proto-Shinobi"? I think it's because today's ninja just revere him as god, hence "god of shinobi"--Elveonora (talk) 14:32, June 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * Either that or the role/meaning of being a shinobi changed through time. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:12, June 5, 2013 (UTC)

His epitaph is irrelevant to his occupation. The shinobi world may consider him a god of shinobi but he was not one. He was a priest whose teachings gave foundation to the shinobi. That's it. The page should be edited accordingly.--Reliops (talk) 20:09, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

Sage's real name
His real name is revealed in chapter #646. His name was Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki and his mother's name was Kaguya Ōtsutsuki. http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a553/anaspet06/Shakhmootssign_zps2a261e68.png (Contact) 08:00, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Apologies when I was correcting his name from the article which is Bagoromo Ōtsutsuki and not Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki I scrubbed the info box in doing so Milkomeda (talk) 10:35, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's better to wait for raws for the correct name.  http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a553/anaspet06/Shakhmootssign_zps2a261e68.png  (Contact) 10:39, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

MangaStream's translations say Bagoromo Ōotsutsuki. Telephoneoperator4 (talk) 11:20, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hagoromo? Like Hagoromo Clan? I dunno... it sounds fishy xD--Omojuze (talk) 11:22, September 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * And I don't care what they say, I'll wait for the raws and have our translators look at it.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:23, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * The only thing I found is 羽衣 Hagoromo, which means Feather Robe and refers to the feather robe of birds and to the robe angels wear. That's all I could find, so I guess his and his mother's names are made up words. Seelentau 愛議 11:29, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah lets wait for raws (both Hagoromo and Kaguya names are clan names, so that's pretty weird, unless the clans are named after them, which is doubtful)--Omojuze (talk) 11:58, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Hagoromo is also name of nine tail fox yokai...See...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagoromo So maybe Kishi refered to connection between Kurama and Sage...YamatoTakeru (talk) 18:11, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

"ha" and "ba" in Japanese just differ slightly, their characters are the same. I think it might be Bagoromo, since the "ba" character uses a punctuation, but "ha" doesn't.

why would the translator mistook "without punctuation" as "with punctuation"? On the other hand, he could easily miss the punctuation and see it as a "ha".

Anyways, we need to wait for the VIZ Translations..not TheUltimate3's translators. Telephoneoperator4 (talk) 19:34, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * You're right, Mangapanda translators saw the hiragana of his name as は, while Mangastream translators saw it as ば ... However, we have to wait for raws for more confirmation.  http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a553/anaspet06/Shakhmootssign_zps2a261e68.png  (Contact) 19:50, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

The raw is here: It's Hagoromo (大筒木ハゴロモ) TheGeg (talk) 00:34, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

Millennium ago
The chapter explicitly tells us that the forbidden fruit was the one to reappear once a millennium, not that the Sage and his mother had lived 1000 years before the beginning of the series or the foundation of the villages. Actually we never got a date about when those ancient times took place.--Rikudo Sennin 47 (talk) 17:23, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixed.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 17:46, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Its mostly how long ago things have to be. The toads, including the 1000 year old toad sage all thought the Sage of Six Paths was a myth after all until the Rinnegan came to their attention. If they were as old as that, they would have known what to do against the Rinnegan or how to guide the user.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 18:19, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

Confused.
So, the Sage traveled and taught the masses about chakra control, right? But he's the only one who had chakra, besides his mother. So how was this done?

Did he somehow do Naruto's trick of transferring chakra? (Rhetorical question. I know there is no answer to this question, it's just one of Kishis mysteries). SusanooUnleashed (talk) 12:41, September 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * This is true. For that to be possible, everyone he taught had to be also descended from his mother thus a direct relative. It's a mess tbh. That's why I defy religion, doesn't make sense--Elveonora (talk) 13:02, September 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * The same way the Ten-Tails was said to be the origin of all chakra and nobody batted an eyelash.
 * Chakra is screwy, the entire story could be BS, Sage figured out how to unlock chakra to everyone, human eating the fruit unlocked chakra in everyone, many many things could have happened.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:15, September 12, 2013 (UTC)

I think it was probably misinterpreted. Considering that people can't live without chakra, I'm assuming that they already had it. If I read it correctly, the manga said the sage's mother was the first to wield chakra, not the first to have it. The ten-tails is the origin of all chakra, but also the origin of all life, so it wouldn't break any facts if people already had it. The only thing that might go against this is that it was said that the sage was the first born with chakra. But I'm also assuming we haven't gotten the raws yet, since we've yet to clarify the sages name, so somebody clarify this while there at it. it might actually say "first born able to use it". MangekyoSasuke (talk) 18:56, September 12, 2013 (UTC) Edit: Also, the shinju was probably just mad about the fruit, not the chakra that people already had (if I'm assuming right). MangekyoSasuke (talk) 18:57, September 12, 2013 (UTC) 2nd edit: I also noticed that it seemed like Kaguya was giving people chakra it the mural that showed her ending the wars, so that's also a possibility. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 18:59, September 12, 2013 (UTC)

Sons
I... don't even know if I should bring this up, but Obito never says that those brothers were the actual sons of the Sennin. They're just called "two children" and "older brother"/"younger brother". How do we handle that? I only checked chapter 462, were they mentioned somewhere else? Seelentau 愛議 20:51, September 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Not sure, but I think I remember something about it being in second fanbook.--LeafShinobi (talk) 21:13, September 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Huh, never thought it could be found there. They're indeed called "sons" there. Thanks! Seelentau 愛議 21:32, September 14, 2013 (UTC)

Historical/Mythological References
The name comes from an obscure passage in the second volume of the Kojiki about the genealogies of Emperor Suinin, eleventh emperor of Japan, which states that he had a consort named, the daughter of a king named. Unsubstantiated folklore suggests that this Kaguyahime is the basis for, the heroine of , from which the name Hagoromo is also derived.

Additionally, though this is likely a stretch, the horn-like tufts of Hagoromo's hair may in fact symbolize rabbit ears, representing his connection to the moon by evoking the moon rabbit; it is not uncommon for pop culture depictions of Princess Kaguya and the moonfolk to feature rabbit ears. FF-Suzaku (talk) 20:54, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * As always, thanks for the information ... you're free to add it on the trivia section.  http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a553/anaspet06/Shakhmootssign_zps2a261e68.png  (Contact) 21:03, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Why're you translating 筒 as bamboo, though? Seelentau 愛議 21:23, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * The original, archaic meaning of 筒 is "section of bamboo," referring to the individual tube-like sections of a bamboo stalk; the original han character is actually a compound of 竹 (bamboo), 𠔼 (twice), and 口 (opening). Not to mention the local Kyōtanabe lore that Ōtsutsukitarine served as the model for the in the aforementioned folktale. As I understand it, Kyōtanabe was once known as, and those who study Japanese folklore speculate that it's the village from the story, presuming that Ōtsutsukitarine's name, roughly "Big Bamboo Tree Vertical Root" is a rough analogue to ; tradition also holds that the Imperial court was centered there during the reign of Emperor Keitai, at , and of course, the recurring tsuki syllable sounds like . All unsubstantiated, but certainly compelling and interesting. Bits of research on the subject can be found all over the net, but the website for the Taketori Okina Museum in Kyōtanabe has a lot of compiled info on the folktale. FF-Suzaku (talk) 07:39, September 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Alright, that's good to know. Seal of approval given (not that you'd need it :D). Seelentau 愛議 09:08, September 17, 2013 (UTC)

Debut
We should list his debut as in Kuramas flashback with the baby Bijus, as it was our first time officially seeing him. Afterall we dont list Itachi on being mentioned, or a vague shadowy outline now do we?--RexGodwin (talk) 05:12, October 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * No because in the end it was just a flashback. Same as the first time.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 10:50, October 18, 2013 (UTC)

the other time wasnt even a flashback it was just Jiraiya saying yeah theres this guy called Rikudo Sennin, and heres a vague outline of him! Not really a proper appearance.--RexGodwin (talk) 19:03, October 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Dodai's first appearance was of him as a young man, and that is still listed as his first appearance, despite being A's flashback. His silhouette when Jiraiya mentioned him and other similar instances are much like Itachi outlines mentioned already, or Deva Path not quite appearing until see him full body. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:45, October 18, 2013 (UTC)

So basically your agreeing with everything i said...--RexGodwin (talk) 05:23, October 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily. Dodai had a flashback debut, but he was seem clearly. Hagoromo had one appearance in a "myth" and another in an actual flashback, but both of them showed almost nothing. Pain physically appeared many times before what we actually consider to be his debut, because of how he was shown. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:16, October 29, 2013 (UTC)