Talk:Truth-Seeking Ball

New Chapter 665
Well, as of this new chapter, last page, Obito has used this technique using the Yin-Yang that makes up Black Zetsu. Obviously he's no longer the Ten-Tails' jinchūriki, so it can't just require the Ten-Tails' chakra to use, but any source of Yin-Yang chakra. Thoughts? ~ Ten Tailed Fox 07:12, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * It looked like he used some of Black Zetsu to make an orb, and he had his hand through Madara's chest. This is confusing. --OmegaRasengan (talk) 07:20, February 19, 2014 (UTC)


 * We can't be sure if he was using Black Zetsu to create the orb. It looks like he could just be forcing Black Zetsu off of his arm to regain control of it, and we can't rule out that he may still be using Ten-Tails' chakra somehow, since he was touching Madara at the time.--BeyondRed (talk) 07:23, February 19, 2014 (UTC)


 * While I'd say Obito could do it only because he's touching Madara's body, I suggest we wait the next chapter before putting any trivia.--JOA20 (talk) 07:25, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

To be on the safe side, we could call this "Malleable Chakra Spheres" or something to that extent, since at the very least, being Ten-Tails' current jinchuriki isn't a requirement to use this.--BeyondRed (talk) 07:44, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

yeah, as evident that how Obito was able to re-materialize his shakujō --141elitesupermegamode (talk) 08:11, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

You all jump to conclusions, he has his hand in Madara's gut and is likely absorbing the chakra, nothing to do with BZ--Elveonora (talk) 11:04, February 19, 2014 (UTC)


 * I wanted to say that the Mallebale Chakra doesn't require Ten-Tails' jinchuriki when I saw the end of the chapter. But honestly, Elveonora has a point. He has his hand stuck in Madara's chest, then he started forming the Malleable Chakra. So for this, I would say wait of next chapter.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:22, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, like honestly, Malleable Chakra is 4 or more natures (+ additional/optional YYR) used with Shinju's chakra and BZ is Madara's will incarnate. You guys racists, not two blacks alike!!!--Elveonora (talk) 12:20, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

For now, what I understand is happening is that Obito is syphoning the Ten-Tails' chakra from Madara to make the shakujō. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:38, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except that the panels explicitly show him turning the black material from Black Zetsu, on his arm, into the orb, which then turns into the shakujō. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:40, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't say so. In my opinion he simply is suppressing Black Zetsu, the orb is unrelated mass. I mean, he made a staff, wouldn't have that taken more BZ mass if that were true? We don't know until next chapter I suppose--Elveonora (talk) 17:47, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * True, we can wait, but I think you lot are forgetting that "suppressing Black Zetsu" isn't exactly a very smart idea for him, since Black Zetsu is kinda the thing keeping him alive. And you can literally see the black ooze coming off of him and turning into the orbs. But I suppose the majority won't be convinced until they're shown flat out that stabbing your hand into someone's chest doesn't let you use their bijū. Next week it is >_< ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:01, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Since Black Zetsu is a jinchuuriki of Kurama and Obito gained control over Black Zetsu, wouldn't that make Obito the jinchuuriki? So that should kinda keep him alive I guess. And I see it differently. You see, it looks like Obito simply rolled up his BZ sleeve and there's the orb next to it. we don't see the two connected and the former turning into latter--Elveonora (talk) 18:11, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

What we saw was the BZ material receding, that doesn't mean it's being turned into the staff. The BZ mass didn't travel from his arm to the space above his hand, the chakra there simply appeared. I wouldn't say that Obito is the host of Yin Kurama. He maybe be in control of the host, but isn't himself the host. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:17, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Ten-Tails Malleable Chakra is called Ringa?
In chapter 666, Madara was shooting black orbs at Obito and Kakashi which was the Ten-Tails Malleable Chakra but he called them "Ringa". Is this true or is it some misunderstanding? :/

Oh yeah, I read chapter 666 again but from a different website and instead of Ringa, it was Limbo. What the heck is going on? --DetectiveDuckling (talk) 11:04, February 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * Just wait for the raws. Then Seelentau-senpai will take care of it.--JOA20 (talk) 11:10, February 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * But, the Ringa is different than another similarly named techinque? --Pat141elite (talk) 11:53, February 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * Even then, Madara said he wouldn't use Ringa on Obito as he needed the Rinnegan. Then he threw two chakra spheres at them. So it's safe to assume that the chakra spheres are not Ringa, whatever that is.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:46, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

Its rinbo. The translation on mp and mr is off. Read the ms version. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 14:07, February 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * This. Seelentau 愛議 18:16, February 26, 2014 (UTC)

Senjutsu
In chapter 643, Naruto declares that the technique is Senjutsu, stating that "The toads' attacks are called Senjutsu, in other words they use Natural Energy. Now that I think about it, when I sensed the Juubi's power it felt like Natural Energy. Maybe you can fight Natural Energy using Natural Energy..." He effectively clarifies that his Senjutsu attacks can counteract the Ten-Tail's own Malleable Chakra, which is also apparently Senjutsu/Natural Energy-Based. Skarrj (talk) 07:26, March 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * He said that the Ten-Tails is natural energy, not the chakra weapons. Seelentau 愛議 08:14, March 3, 2014 (UTC)

Really TT's Chakra?
Was this special Chakra ever attributed to being the TT's Jinchūriki? I know how this sounds, but seeing Obito using the Chakra orbs without being the TT's Jinchūriki made me think that it's not really the TT's chakra. This is furthermore supported by the fact that it's described as a super-advanced nature and later as YYR. It has to do with the control over the TT, yes, but I doubt that it's actually the TT's very own Chakra. Seelentau 愛議 11:11, March 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * I am very unsure when and where it was called the Ten-Tails' chakra. But having access to Ten-Tails is defiantly needed to create/use them.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:27, March 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * And yet, Obito did it without being a Jinchuriki. Seelentau 愛議 11:50, March 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * He also stuck his hand in Madara and drained chakra from him. Up until that point, he had no Chakra Spheres. Then hand in chest and he sucked (ha ha!) and boom, Chakra Spheres.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:05, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Basically what I mean is Ten-Tails' chakra is needed, being the jinchuriki is not.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:06, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * He didn't drain Madara's Chakra. He drained the Biju and Hashirama's Senchakra. Seelentau 愛議 13:10, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * /shrug perhaps. But observations speak for themselves. Until he had his hand in Madara's stomach, he had no chakra sphere. Then hand in gut and boom, chakra sphere, producing the same weapon he wielded when he was the Ten-Tails jinchuriki and in the same manner. So from that, unless you wish to avoid a logical conclusion, he got Ten-Tails chakra from Madara.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:20, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Again, those black orbs where never stated to be TT's chakra, if I recall correctly (and I tend to do that). So that means if the orbs weren't made of TT's chakra the first time, there's the possibilty they aren't made from it this time. This leaves us with two other options: Either Obito used the Biju's chakra, but I doubt that, since they're for Naruto, who's missing those two chakras yet. Or Obito used Hashirama's Senchakra, which is likely, but I don't believe it to be true, since there's another third possibility which we haven't paid attention to: Kuro Zetsu's vanishing at the same time the orb was formed. I know most people say that he fled because of how dangerous the orb is, but that mustn't be necessarily true. If you don't want to touch a dangerous object, you wouldn't retreat one finger at a time, would you? But Kuro Zetsu basically did that. That's why I assume that Obito formed the orb out of Kuro Zetsu, meaning it has nothing to do with the TT's chakra. Seelentau 愛議 13:38, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

So that assumes Madara is just a jackhole who could have made the Chakra Spheres at any time, but choose not to until he was the Ten-Tails jinchuriki when they could have been used at any time before to devastating effect? That seems perfectly logical and I am being very sarcastic. Obviously we know very little specifically about the chakra spheres, save that until someone did something with the Ten-Tails they weren't an issue. Whether or not they are the jinchuriki or not seems irrelevant, or what they are made with. The only constant and I'm sure you are going to come up with a slew of reasons to tell me this is wrong, but as I am saying this before you, the only constant between the use of the Orbs was contact with the Ten-Tails jinchuriki, be it being the jinchurki, or sticking your hand in his gut.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 13:55, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Also I foresee this going nowhere so I'm gonna keep my mouth shut on this matter for now. Others need to respond, and no that does not mean just go about with whatever changes you may have in mind if they don't because this discussion will still be "live".--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:58, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's the only constant, yes. But as I mentioned earlier, I don't deny that the orbs have something to do with the Ten-Tails. I'm only saying that they're most likely not made of its Chakra. And I'm not the windmill, I'm the wind that moves it. Or at least I try to. In the end, it's up to you regular editors. Seelentau 愛議 14:01, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh to that? Nah I don't think its specifically the Ten-Tails chakra. I don't think the Ten-Tails has...unique chakra anyway. But that's just my interpretation.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:16, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * And by unique chakra, I mean when you look at the Ten-Tails as a sensor, I don't think you actually get "This is Ten-Tails." you get "This is Shukaku, Matatabi, Isobu,-" eh you get the idea.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:17, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

Which means we're back where we started, with my question being the same: Has this special Chakra ever been described as the Ten-Tail's own Chakra? Seelentau 愛議 14:22, March 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * Ooooh. No. No I don't think it ever has been. If anything the name be changed to avoid the confusion, but I can't think of another name for it.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:41, March 7, 2014 (UTC)

I'm with Ultimate on this one. Obviously it's the Ten-Tails' chakra, why wouldn't it be? A Jinchuuriki has access to his or her Tailed Beasts' chakra. Roshi had Lava Release from Son Goku as well. Obito simply absorbed some Shinju chakra from Madara while massaging his guts.--Elveonora (talk) 17:34, March 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * Clarification Elvenora, thanks to Seelentau clarifying what he was trying to say; I am of mind that while the ability is Ten-Tails based, the chakra spheres are not specifically Ten-Tails chakra. You need to have some sort of connection with the Ten-Tails (like being its jinchuriki or sticking your hand inside the jinchuriki's colon), but I do not think the Ten-Tails actually has specific chakra.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 19:21, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Its chakra seems to be a requirement in order to use the "at least 4 nature transformation mix" chakra. In my opinion it's the same as Son Goku's Lava Release. Shinju can simply mix not just two but most if not all natures into one and its jinchuuriki or those with its chakra have access to this power. That doesn't of course mean the Shinju's chakra in its default/pure state equals the black mass/orbs and shi* if that's what Seel is trying to say. In fact, I don't think this should even be considered a technique, it's its own nature--Elveonora (talk) 22:20, March 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * "why wouldn't it be?" - because it was never said. Seelentau 愛議 17:03, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * Whether it's specifically the Ten-Tails' chakra, or something that only those who host it can do, there's no denying that the Ten-Tails is the source of this ability. I feel this is more a matter of semantics than anything else. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:20, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * What Omni said, I don't see the difference--Elveonora (talk) 17:27, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

Well, we named it TT's Chakra, but it obviously isn't its Chakra. Seelentau 愛議 10:29, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * I can see you having issues with the way the article is named, but for its workings, wow come? Don't jinchuuriki use their tailed beasts' chakras? Of course it must not be the TTs' chakra alone and in its pure form, for all we know it can be a mix of Obito/Madara and the Shinju's chakras. The point stays tho that they can use this super advanced nature transformation only as its jinchuuriki or while having its chakra. With that being said, what's your opinion on converting this into a nature transformation article? It's not a Tailed Beast Skill. We even changed Roshi's Lava into KKG--Elveonora (talk) 11:11, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Again: Obito didn't suck out any of Madara's TB Chakra. However he formed the staff, it's not made of the same Chakra as the orbs. The orbs, on the other hand, haven't been attributed to the TT. There is a connection, but not the one we're currently stating. Seelentau 愛議 11:14, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * How do you know he didn't suck any chakra and that the staff isn't made of the same substance as the orbs? I'm not saying you are wrong, because this one is complex, but what changes would you imagine to be done to the article as it is now other than its name?--Elveonora (talk) 11:24, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know that I'm right, I only know that it's wrong to say the opposite, since it was never stated.
 * Other than its name, I don't really know. I wrote most of it down in the Chakra article over at the German wiki, since I couldn't think of an article name. Maybe we should do something similar here, like adding it to the Onmyōton article or so... Seelentau 愛議 11:30, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

May you please copy what you wrote about it over at German wiki? Thanks--Elveonora (talk) 11:32, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's just a small part here. I wrote "After becoming the TT's Jinchuriki, Obito is able to use an advanced chakra nature which is comprised of at least four chakra natures, according to Hiruzen Sarutobi. Later, Obito gains full control over the TT, which enables him to use the chakra nature more precise. Tobirama notices that the chakra nature is actually YYR, which can undo all Ninjutsu, making it a perfect counter for Edo Tensei. Only Senjutsu can't be undone, since they're not made of normal cakra.". I didn't have the time to write about Madara yet^^ Seelentau 愛議 11:37, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Now I get your point. You mean to say the Shinju is the source of the power to combine the natural transformations, but that necessarily doesn't make the substance its chakra, kinda like Gaara isn't using Shukaku's chakra while manipulating the sand despite the beast being the origin of the power. But that doesn't explain why could Obito do it again only while coming into contact with Madara. That would be like someone having powers of a tailed beast just by touching its body or chakra. I guess the conclusion that it's the Shinju's chakra even tho unconfirmed is only logical, the articles even state Obito could use it again after absorbing Madara, so it's a general consensus he did absorb Madara. How are you so sure he didn't? No aura around his hand drawn, no sound effect indication or anything? Also I'm still confused about your supposed differentiation between the staff and the orbs if any :P--Elveonora (talk) 12:08, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's not about the staff right now. My problem is that the black chakra has not been described as the Ten Tails' chakra. There is a connection between both, but not the one we're currently stating there is. Seelentau 愛議 12:51, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, so rename and a little bit of rewording. See? Even the two of us can sometime get along :P I would like this best converted into nature transformation page tho... So, any opposition to this anyone?--Elveonora (talk) 13:03, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

Mhm. I've been reading this discussion for the past 35 minutes trying to come to my own conclusion. But yea, what Seel is saying makes perfect sense. I can't believe i never doubted this as a technique sooner, it would make more sense as a chakra nature for sure. But even so, would we create a technique page for the nature? Or are we simply adding this to the YYR Nature transformation? Besides that, i'm in for renaming the page and renovating the article.--NaviiGator (A.K.A.KotoSenju) Talk Page-My Contributions 15:12, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

So, what do we do with this? We know it's an super-advanced chakra nature, made up of at least four natures and it has a connection to the Ten-Tails. If a Jinchuriki has control over the TT, this chakra nature becomes(?) YYR. Anything else about the nature part? Seelentau 愛議 09:31, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

I'm just gonna throw this out there: Obito DEFINITELY absorbed Chakra from Madara when he fisted his gut - This is evidenced by the fact that upon doing so he gains a flowing flame-like chakra moving down his arm FROM Madara. You can go back and examine the chapter, its there, clear as day. I have yet to see one person acknowledge that. Additionally, even Obito NOT being the Jinchuriki anymore does not rule him out for not being able to create it. According to the most recent data book in the Q&A section, when asked if Gaara retained his Sand Control after Shukaku's extraction, Kishi responded "Once it's ingrained in you, you can't take anything away, not even sand." so Jinchuriki can obviously still retain skills from their TB after their TB's removal, within reason. Granted Obito clearly needed chakra from Madara to reform his Chakra Orb. Notably, we know the Sage of Six Paths was able to use this ability from the Ten-Tails as well - Obito remarks that he's gained the Sage's same Yin-Yang Release as him upon refining his control over the Ten-Tails. Additionally his control over the Ten Tails directly coincided with the advancement of the Chakra Orbs. The technique is gained from being a Jinchuriki of the Ten-Tails. As part of both their natural transformations, Obito and Madara had the orbs form about themselves seemingly without their consciously doing anything (Obito wasn't even able to recall his own name when he did it). They matured with control over the Ten-Tails. Skarrj (talk) 09:58, March 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * He creates the black orb before those flames can be seen. Even if the flames represent Madara's chakra, it has nothing to do with the orb creation. But I think the flames represent Obito's chakra, since he's pulling the Bijū out with it. Seelentau 愛議 10:19, March 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm with Seel on this one. No way Madara's chakra was involved in him using the orbs. If Gaara's manipulation of sand, which we know originated with Shukaku, was left in him after Shukaku's extraction, then why is it suddenly so shocking to you lot that Obito can use the Yin-Yang orbs after he lost the Ten-Tails? Its not the Ten-Tails chakra though, which was the original point of this discussion. Its some Frankenstein-level nature transformation, so the name should be changed. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 16:50, March 17, 2014 (UTC)

Just a note here, but the Malleable Chakra seems to have an inconsistent effect. I mean Minato has lost both arms to it and doesn't seem to be regenerating even the second wound, despite it not being done with the same technique. Yet at the end of chapter 638, Tobirama and Hashirama's wood clone both had huge sections taken out of them seemingly by spears made of the stuff and yet he regenerated just fine. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 17:07, March 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * But the thing with Gaara, was Shukaku's host pretty much from birth. Obito was Shinju's host for what, a few hours? Hawkeye, they were able to regenerate because Obito still didn't have proper control over Shinju. Once after Obito got a hold of himself, the orbs started exhibiting the ninjutsu-cancelling effect, which is also one of the reasons I've always argued for the splitting of the Yin-Yang aspect of those attacks in its own article. When Hiruzen first gets intel on the orbs, he says they're at least four natures, and at that point, they're not ninjutsu-cancelling, meaning they're not Yin-Yang yet. It takes deliberate intent for them to be Yin-Yang. While calling it some sort of nature transformation would be more correct, I see no good away of making a title that is both accurate and non-convoluted. All the names related to the subject at the Japanese Wikipedia article on it are very wordy. The section name is, and the title they use, even with a note that it's not an official name, is . Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:44, March 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * At least you sensei aren't ignorant. The nature isn't yin-yang release, yet currently the article as is, infobox included say so and it's wrong. I find it amusing how people simply ignore things just because they like their own version of the canon better ^_ For the nature's name, that's a tricky one for sure. How about "the progenitor's nature transformation" (talk) 17:54, March 17, 2014 (UTC)

What about Advanced Kekkei Tota or something? Since it has at least 4 elements? Honestly I'd assume it's a combination of all the base five, but we can't say that with what data we have--Hawkeye2701 (talk) 18:07, March 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * All the short descriptions I can think of mention the Ten-Tails, which I think people here don't want because it's the jinchūriki using the ability, and the Ten-Tails itself didn't use the skill. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:14, March 17, 2014 (UTC)

There's something I would like to bring up in this discussion. This wiki assumes that the "mysterious black stuff" and the yin-yang release ninjutsu negation to be one jutsu, and that Obito somehow tanked an Amaterasu (which is impossible, one can't regenerate fast enough to put out flames like that). I think this assumption is wrong. The way Obito seems to have described it, He applied the ninjutsu negation to both the orbs and his body. How else would he have survived unscathed from the Kagutsuchi-rasenshuriken (I'm not calling it that silly name) but was severely damaged from a simple senjutsu rasengan? All evidence points to the jutsus being separate, but easily combined. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 14:32, March 20, 2014 (UTC)

That's what I and Omni have been saying for a while.--Elveonora (talk) 14:58, March 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * In the most recent chapter, Madara's black balls are simply called Kuroi Buki, meaning black weapon(s). Also, I can't really understand what Kakashi says about them. Something about how they're not disappearing and that they're of the "standing/reserve type" and also something about that they're not something that needs to be invoked? Don't know, fishy wording >.< Seelentau 愛議 12:25, March 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * "Madara's black balls" fishy wording indeed ;) well, viz will clear that up I suppose--Elveonora (talk) 12:29, March 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Viz translation
 * Kakashi: "Master, those black weapons of Madara's are troublesome."
 * Minato: "They're not the activating-from-nothing type, but an always-on-standby type that undergo change in form..." "Their impact points disappear... but there is a clear sensation if they make contact with you." "He can send them only about 70 meters out..." "...for he loses control over them any further than that." "So since they physically exist, and can be traced and followed..." "...Kakashi, your Kamui should work on them." "By sending them away, we can prevent him from controlling them."


 * In other words, the're more like tools, as the term "black weapons" (黒い武器, kuroi buki) would imply. They're persistent physical objects with malleable form that can be freely controlled up to a range of about 70 meters, but they can't simply be (re)generated from nothing and cannot easily be recovered if sent far beyond the range of control. Hence their plan to seperate Madara from them with Kamui and Hiraishin. FF-Suzaku (talk) 21:04, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

Distance limits
In the latest chapter Minato mentioned that Madara couldn't manipulate the black orbs at more than 70 meters, but Obito could still do it to create the Six Red Yang Encampment. Should it be mentioned?--JOA20 (talk) 09:28, March 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * If he throws them too far, he loses control. But Obito didn't need control about them after they flew where he needed them. After all, they already had the form he needed. Seelentau 愛議 12:34, March 21, 2014 (UTC)

Hagoromo's Brother as a user
Title says it all. Do we add him like we did the sage?--NaviiGator (A.K.A.KotoSenju) Talk Page-My Contributions 14:46, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Did he show the black orbs or was mentioned as a user? If yes, then go for it. If no, then no. The shakujo isn't a valid indicator. Seelentau 愛議 21:32, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

Name
On Page 16 of Chapter 672, it appears that Madara gave the T.T.M.C. an actual name (or at least the spherical orb that be formed using the T.T.M.C.): the "Guduo-Dama". --Gesshoku (talk) 06:59, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

Is the black orb named "Gudou" by Madara in chapter 672? How about creating a new page of it?? --Sulina (talk) 08:05, April 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * We all have read the chapter, so calm down. We're waiting for the raw before me move anything, as always. Seelentau 愛議 08:40, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

Really Chakra?
Has the black mass ever been called chakra? Seelentau 愛議 12:14, April 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * Not even once. Believe we called it such because it sure as fudge ain't flesh.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:21, April 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's made of nature transformations, so it's chakra. Even if it is akin to fire from Fire Release, the fire is still only transformed or something chakra, so yeah--Elveonora (talk) 12:29, April 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * But is it still chakra when it's YYR? I mean, how can YYR nullify chakra when it's chakra itself? Seelentau 愛議 12:33, April 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because as you were told before, the nature isn't YYR. A nature doesn't change properties as the user sees fit, if the black substance didn't nullify chakra originally, that means the nullification itself is something separate from the nature. @Omni, I know you hate to repeat yourself, but a little help here please >_<--Elveonora (talk) 12:40, April 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * I was told before that you guys think that it isn't YYR. Well, I know otherwise. Seelentau 愛議 12:44, April 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * And I tell you that I know otherwise than you think ;)--Elveonora (talk) 12:48, April 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * The problem is, the manga is on my "side". Seelentau 愛議 12:50, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

And you are welcome to prove so.--Elveonora (talk) 12:51, April 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * You've read the same manga as me. Tobirama calls the black orbs YYR. There's literally nothing to discuss here. Seelentau 愛議 12:56, April 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * There is. You are purposely ignoring the context, but whatever. He said the technique Madara uses is YYR after the balls started to nullify chakra, not before. As an example a fire from Fire Release can not "not burn" with the user just deciding afterwards for it to harm.--Elveonora (talk) 12:59, April 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * So we have two different kinds of black orbs or what? Seelentau 愛議 13:08, April 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not really, the chakra nullification seems to be a separate YYR technique. I believe Madara could in theory spew out a fire with the nullification applied.--Elveonora (talk) 13:18, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

Not reading all of that. Don't start going back and forth over if it is Ying-Yang Release or not. The manga said it was, the end. On to the topic of is it chakra, and how can chakra nullify chakra if it's chakra. They aren't nullifying chakra. They nullify ninjutsu. Remember, senjutsu, which is natural energy and senjutsu chakra is completely unaffected.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 13:27, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

What Elv said. The nullification is applied to the body as well, you can't just tank an Amaterasu. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 13:30, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

@TheUltimate, ignorance is the humanity's greatest sin indeed. The manga never stated the nature is a YYR, NEVER, no matter how much you twist it.--Elveonora (talk) 14:41, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

When the black balls first showed up, they only had a Dust Release-like ability to destroy stuff, but Edo Tensei could still regenerate. At this point, Hiruzen concluded that they were made of four or more nature transformations. They're definitely chakra. After Obito got control of the Shinju, they started exhibiting the ninjutsu-cancelling, which Tobirama attributed to YYR. This clearly shows that at its basic level, the black balls are not YYR, and their ninjutsu-cancelling effect stems from elsewhere. As TU3 mentioned, they don't nullify chakra, they nullify ninjutsu. I see no reason for us to have another article, specifically about the spheres. They were clearly named, which solves our naming issue, and the fact that they can change shape is an aspect of the technique, so unless we're given other names, there's no need for other articles. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:46, April 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, the nature itself isn't called seeking balls and I suppose this article is about the black substance in general. Also the sword variant was given its own unique name, too.

For the YYR argument topic, @Seel, if you could be so nice, can you translate exactly what Tobirama said upon noticing Minato's arm not regenerating? Thanks--Elveonora (talk) 14:54, April 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not touching the YYR argument. My mind can't even wrap my why some are still arguing that it isn't after Tobirama's statement. Its just so unbelievably stupid to ignore that tidbit just because you want to go with the whole "four natures" theory, of Saru's, without considering YYR could be two of those natures. Regardless, nine times out of ten, Seel is right with the manga being on his "side" so I trust his judgement. Instead, I'll focus on the other side of the argument. The orbs and this "chakra" are definitely the same technique. The chakra started out as orbs back when Obito first became the jinchūriki, and, from there, he created shapes from them (including the shakūjo). That doesn't mean they're different techniques. So I agree with the others, here, who are saying merge the articles. There is no reason to have two. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 15:45, April 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Why is it stupid? Tobirama's entire point was that it was YYR that allowed the orbs to nullify ninjutsu. I'm well aware that either Yin or Yang could be one of the four or five natures, that's precisely why I was against listing any nature at all in the page when Hiruzen first said that. However, the specific ninjutsu cancelling, which is YYR, only came later. At its most default state, the ninjutsu-cancelling YYR is not present in the orb. I'm not ignoring Tobirama's statement, but everyone else arguing that it's YYR from scratch does seem to be ignoring that Edo Tensei have regenerated from it before, which wouldn't be possible if it was ninjutsu-cancelling from the beginning. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:17, April 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * Not to mention that the ninjutsu nullification is applied to the body of the jinchuriki as well. Its a separate technique from the chakra, but one that can be applied to it. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 16:25, April 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * That I'm going to need more on. When have we ever seen the ninjutsu nullification being used other than the black balls? If this about Obito being Amaterasued, the orbs flew directly at him to consume the flames. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:31, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

As I remember (could be wrong, so check me) Kakashi warned Guy to avoid the shakujō as well because it could nullify techniques. Not sure on the exact wording of that. It is stupid to ignore Tobirama's statement, though. Because when Hiruzen comments on the nature of the orbs, he is making an educated guess on what could have just occurred, comparing it to the Dust Release because it is the closest example he could come up. Tobirama, on the other hand, flat out calls it Yin-Yang Release. I'm more akin to believe someone (Tobirama) who, off the cuff, recognizes something for what it is over someone (Hiruzen) who is merely speculating what it could be. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 17:27, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

@Omni but when the flames were on him they never actually hurt him. The orbs just wiped the flames away. When Naruto attacked with a senjutsu rasengan, which is weaker that a wind release rasenshuriken, it actually hurt him. And then Obito decided he needed to actually guard himself. If the nullification didn't apply to his body, why would he decide to do that? MangekyoSasuke (talk) 17:41, April 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * Calm down children. Remember the topic at hand.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:06, April 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * ??? I'm calm. But I guess I should make a new topic for this... MangekyoSasuke (talk) 18:09, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

And the shakujō is made out of the same black chakra of the chakra balls. I'm not ignoring Tobirama's statement, I'm just saying that it doesn't blanket the entire situation as you're saying. The entire manga is filled with pieces of information that are given by other characters, either as statements or guesses, it's called exposition. Hiruzen compared the destruction effect of the technique to Dust Release, not the thing as a whole, as he also points the changing shapes. Tobirama's statement is as much of guess as Hiruzen's. He noticed Minato's arm wasn't regenerating, but he didn't say anything about YYR until Obito himself said he had Hagoromo's power. He didn't recognise anything, he made a conclusion based on what he saw, and what was told to him. Recognising would imply he has seen ninjutsu-cancelling YYR before, which we don't know to be the case. Mangekyo Sasuke, in the panel where it shows Obito in the middle of the flames, after the spheres go back at him, you can see a bit of that "smoking" effect associated with healing. The flames did hurt, but not much, because nothing in the attack had senjutsu chakra. Regarding the original topic, yes, it's definitely chakra in my opinion. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:18, April 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * You see any healing smoke coming from Madara right now? MangekyoSasuke (talk) 18:23, April 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * There's definitely some smoke coming from Madara as he regenerates, but that might be from the attack. Smoking isn't the only effect used to display healing though. You can see the effect, for example, in 659, when he's talking to Zetsu, even before he became a jinchūriki. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:31, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, Ultimate3, Foxie, I'm just waiting for the translation so I can then show you 3 where your fallacy lies at.--Elveonora (talk) 18:38, April 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * There is no fallacy to be discussed. Only your wishful thinking holding up a confirmed name from the latest chapter. @MangekyōSasuke: Madara's healing abilities comes from the fact that he has Hashirama's cells in him and inherited Hashirama's inhuman healing powers. Madara states this flat out shortly after he is revived by Gedo Rinne Tensei. That is what healed him from Guy's attack. Obito does the same thing for the same reasons when Naruto hit him with Rasengan both right after his mask was broken and right after the Sage Art: Rasengan hit him shortly after he became the Ten-Tails jinchūriki. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:08, April 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * As far as the name is concerned, yeah, 672 gave us that on a silver platter. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:11, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

Do you have to show a middle finger to my face each time? I'm not even sure if it's ignorance at this point, call me paranoid, but I'm beginning to see it as a purposeful mockery. If you aren't a spineless person, then please, at least read and consider what I write. The fallacy is related to it's YYR status, not the name. But the name is a fallacy too of course. This article as I see it is about the black substance/chakra nature in general, not just the balls. There's no common sense in calling this truth seeking balls, since it involves different shapes as well. EDIT: unless you find it logical for spear, rod, shield, arms and so on variants to be called balls. Not to mention the sword variant was even given its own unique name--Elveonora (talk) 21:56, April 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Their basic, default state is that of the balls. Minato himself said that they simply exist on standby. The situation with the sword isn't much different from Itachi's Sword of Totsuka and Yata Mirror. They're tools that exist as part of a jutsu. If other variants get names, we'll list them. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:03, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

I honestly think this is one of the very few discussions we can't solve right now. We don't know everything about YYR, so discussing about it is pointless at the moment. Let's take YYR out of the box, but explain that after gaining control of the TT, the balls become YYR or so. Seelentau 愛議 08:57, April 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm still baffled at why we can't just keep it in. Facts we know. The balls are made of at least four nature transformation. One of them, as stated by Tobirama is Yin-Yang Release. If the balls started spitting out Fire, we would know then to add Fire Release. I just don't understand why people think their conclusion seem mutually exclusive, when the Second's conclusion fits with the Thirds.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:23, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * "as stated by Tobirama is Yin-Yang Release" except he didn't say that, I'm super positive. That's why I kindly ask Seel for the translation--Elveonora (talk) 11:49, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

For the articles merger, you guys misunderstood me. I don't argue that the balls are the default state and that they got named, no, that's true. But I saw the article as it was about the nature the black substance consists of in general, like the article was to me no different than Fire Release let's say. What you did, is turn it into a technique article instead, despite the long discussions about it being a nature.--Elveonora (talk) 11:52, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Eh, he says "This guy... probably uses techniques/a technique based on Yin-Yang-Release, which turns all Ninjutsu into nothing...!". What I don't get is, every Ninjutsu is based on YYR, so shouldn't the black orbs delete themselves or so? Seelentau 愛議 11:59, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's pointless for us to philosophize about physics of fictional universe. And thank you very much for finally confirming the fallacy I was talking about all along. Here is where it was at:
 * "he uses techniques based on Yin-Yang Release"
 * No mention of the Truth-Seeking Balls/black substance or a mention of the nature transformation consisting of YYR AT ALL. He was talking about Obito's techniques in general, not a specific technique or the chakra nature Hiruzen brought up.--Elveonora (talk) 12:07, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah, so the other technique that Obito used as a Jinchuriki and which also could delete Ninjutsu was... uh... Seelentau 愛議 12:21, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * (To make sure I'm understanding this side of the argument correctly) An unseeable technique that is completely different from the one we can see.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:37, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

The way I understand it is that a jinchuuriki who has complete control over the Shinju gains the power to nullify chakra. As it's clear from Seel's translation, Tobirama's passage wasn't about the make-up of the truth-seeking balls--Elveonora (talk) 12:41, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, ignore the context, alrighty then. Seelentau 愛議 12:58, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * What context? In this case you guys are adding your own context where is none. How do you get from "This guy... probably uses techniques/a technique based on Yin-Yang-Release, which turns all Ninjutsu into nothing...!" that the seeking balls are YYR? He doesn't even mention them there. If he said: "those balls probably also use YYR" then you all would have a point, but he didn't. Obito used B through A and you attribute B to A.--Elveonora (talk) 13:03, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sometimes I hate being German, it's much easier to explain why you're wrong using my mother-tongue. But let me try, anyway:
 * We have an explanation about a specific case - the not regrowing arm. Tobirama begins with noticing how Minato's arm doesn't regrow and attributes it to YYR. Now, the technique used to destroy the arm was the black orb. There is literally no other technique that Tobirama could be talking about because the only one that's responsible for destroying the arm is the black orb. Therefore, when Tobirama talks about a technique that is based on YYR, he talks about the black orb. Seelentau 愛議 13:10, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, that doesn't mean tho it applies only to the black orbs specifically, the arm wouldn't have regrown if it were hit with a fireball for all we know. When he said Obito's techniques are YYR doesn't mean only those black balls.--Elveonora (talk) 13:29, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * But he was talking about the black balls, so even if the fireball would've done the same, the black balls stay YYR. Seelentau 愛議 13:31, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not really, since YYR wasn't part of the nature the balls originally consisted of. What you say is akin to Rasengan being Wind Release, cause Rasenshuriken or Hiruzen's anime-only Fire&Earth combo technique being Lava Release.--Elveonora (talk) 13:36, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

And again, you can't just tank an Amaterasu. Further proof that Elv is right on this one. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 14:31, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks. But it was never about being right for egoistic purposes. Honestly, I don't care about being right, I care about what's true. And if there's something I can't stand more than anything, they are ignorance and refusal to admit one's own fallacy.--Elveonora (talk) 14:42, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

The issue at hand for me here that no one arguing that the balls are YYR seems to either want to acknowledge, or at least provide an explanation for is, if YYR is part of the technique by default, how were Hokage one through three able to regenerate? Why wasn't the ninjutsu nullification in effect from the moment Obito became a jinchūriki? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:30, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Reminds me of certain group of individuals who pass their faith without any evidence whatsoever for a fact. You could say it's fiction. But when you approach them about this, they avoid responsibility with a statement such as that faith requires no evidence. Then they of course continue to preach it as a fact despite that. Developing such a defense mechanism is a sign of heavy delusion. It's a very destructive way of thought to sacrifice reason at the expense of one own belief's preservation.--Elveonora (talk) 15:58, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * As much as I want to see this topic resolved, I highly doubt that comparing this to a very touchy subject as faith is going to do any good. That's like throwing a grenade in a fuel refinery. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:22, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * If water doesn't help, purge it with fire I say, I have had enough of being nice. I could care less about offending someone's beliefs, especially in a place where we value facts and evidence above all else. One can have faith in literary anything. No matter the amount of faith, it stays weightless. The fact is Tobirama's statement translated by Seel above. The evidence is there for it not being a YYR presented by you above. Unless the opposition manages to answer your question, explain their reasoning and refute yours, they are wrong.--Elveonora (talk) 16:54, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * 1)You don't have to care, but it would be very wise to not step on toes. Seriously. Don't step on toes.
 * 2)If you want to be perfectly honest, the translation Seel gave can be taken two ways. One referring to an abstract unseeable technique which you believe, the other the damn balls that all of us could see.
 * 3)Because I cannot stress this enough. Don't step on toes.---TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:54, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Took the words right out of my mouth. ^ This all the way. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:27, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

@Ulti, glad I got your attention with that. And right, since the balls didn't originally nullify ninjutsu means that Tobirama's statement is to be taken the former way. The "nothing works on me" part is something the jinchuuriki gets from having proper control over the Shinju. Nature Transformation under no circumstances gains new properties. You already know that I'd like the YYR part being removed from its infobox. That's all I have to say on the matter. For the merger of articles, I disagree with that decision, but sigh... pushing forward one thing is big enough of a task as it is.--Elveonora (talk) 19:05, April 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * That is literally the worst way to try and grab my attention Elvenora.
 * And nobody ever said, "gains new properties" or anything like that. I don't know about the others, but I was pointing out that those balls, use Ying-Yang Release, as one of the natures it was concluded as using, when it was pointed out they are using no less than four different releases. The only counter argument to that I can see is that they didn't nullify the Hokage when Obito/Ten-Tails stomped on them. And the major reason why one side has "Balls(HA!) = Ying-Yang Release" is because Tobirama only came up with that conclusion after Obito stuck one on Minato and his arm didn't grow back.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 20:43, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Here's my problem with Elevenora's argument. As both yourself, Ultimate, and Seel pointed out, the Yin-Yang properties Tobirama speaks of can refer to one of two things: the invisible, never touched upon, technique that Elevenora proposes or the black balls that we can all see and, in fact, prompted Tobirama's statement. Tobirama's statement came about because Obito sliced off Minato's arm and it didn't grow back. At that point, Obito said that he had the "power of the ancestor of the shinobi", to which Tobirama responded that he was using the Yin-Yang Release. The moment Tobirama said that, Elevenora's theory flew out the window. Whether he wants to admit it or not, I simply do not care. Seel translated it. The black balls are the only technique being referred to in that scene. That's the end of that. But Eleve is having a tirade because people refuse to believe that his invisible second technique is responsible for said effect. As Seel and yourself pointed out, only one technique was identified in Tobirama's statement and that was the black balls. Why did the balls not act that way when Obito first became the jinchūriki? I don't know, but I have a possible answer and one that is quite simple. He didn't have control. The nano-second Obito gained control over the Ten-Tails, he began nulifying ninjutsu. Madara? Had control from the first moment and can use the Yin-Yang properties with his chakra balls. I don't understand why it is so hard for Elve to accept the simple fact that a technique cannot be used to the fullest when the user is losing control of their own body, but he seems to see some superficial reason behind everything that happens. Its simple. Obito couldn't control the technique at first. When he could, he used nullification. Yin-Yang is, without a shadow of a doubt, two of the four natures Hirzuen mentioned. That is the last I'll say on this. This discussion is getting to be too mind numbing. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 22:13, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Tobirama used the translated sentence during an explanation of the black orbs. There is literally nothing else he could be describing. Obito didn't even use another technique besides the orbs, if I recall correctly. Now, I don't know why Hiruzen was able to regenerate and how taking control of the TT changed the orbs to YYR, but it's a fact that it happened. I also don't know if YYR is one of the four mentioned natures and I don't even know if this can really be called a chakra nture, because how can chakra delete ninjutsu which are made of chakra? As I said before, YYR is probably the least explained topic in the Narutoverse, we have to be very careful with what we write about it. Seelentau 愛議 22:15, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for clearing that up. I agree. The details are sketchy, but chakra is screwy. The simple solution is to just to write what we know. Hiruzen said that the orbs have four or more natures in them, Tobirama says that the orbs use Yin-Yang Release and attributes that to the reason Obito can delete ninjutsu. We don't have to speculate beyond that, but that, at the very least, needs to be in the article because they're irrefutable facts. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 22:22, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hum... Lack of mastery over the technique. Inelegant as I find it, that does look like a viable explanation to the problem I have with the technique. It is simple, I concede to that. I still consider it to be a boring and uninspired explanation though. Lack of mastery to me is more part 1 Naruto having trouble with Rasengan and Summoning Technique. As mindless as Obito was, he still used the orbs to great effect. Very well, I asked for an explanation, and I got one. I will no longer object on this topic. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:05, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

It's my belief that the black substance is made up of all natures and could thus display the properties of YYR as needed. This is pure speculation as there is no answer so why not just leave all natures off the info box and rewrite the article noting their properties as they were displayed and note the theories put forth by the Third and Second, those would be the facts. Arrancar79 (talk) 23:20, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because that literally doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. A few can't comprehend what was clearly said in the manga so we nuke the article and take everything we know to be a fact out? No. That just... No. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 23:25, April 10, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, Ulti and Foxie, just prepare for a fat annoying woman of African-descent in a salon, because you sure as hell will take any responsibility once it turns out to be wrong.--Elveonora (talk) 08:57, April 11, 2014 (UTC)

Hole hands
Quick question: Did Madara ever cast the orbs through his hands? Seelentau 愛議 20:46, April 13, 2014 (UTC)


 * When he first made the shakujo the holes were there, but they seem to have been forgotten/ignored since then.--BeyondRed (talk) 20:49, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

Black Zetsu
Are we not going to include how Obito, despite not being a Jinchuriki anymore, formed one of the orbs from Black Zetsu? Seelentau 愛議 14:18, April 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * I didn't see it like that. As I understood it, Obito was able to steal a bit of Madara's chakra when he put his hand through his chest, and the creation of the truth-seeking ball made Black Zetsu recede around the hand he was manipulating. BZ isn't the source of it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:35, April 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * And I already translated that Obito did in fact not steal any of Madara's chakra. Also, if BZ did recede, why did he do it in such a weird way? Seelentau 愛議 14:43, April 15, 2014 (UTC)