Talk:Tobi

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Zetsu clone
whilst it does appear he is infront of a zetsu mayfly spiky thing bit when he is replacing his arm, stating he needs to get the Rinnegan, why is this on the main page. isnt this speculation? "However, when seen acquiring a new arm after "detaching" his right arm due to Torune's bugs, Madara is seen standing in front of a plant-like substance similar in appearance to that of Zetsu's green flytrap-like material, which could imply he does in fact replace his limbs with said substance. Furthermore, Madara appears to leak a lighter-colored goo instead of human blood when losing his limbs. "

it reads like he is made up of zetsu's clone / body mass thing. also lighter coloured goo? instead of blood? the manga is in black and white so....where is thsi from? i ask because i don't know. SharinganMike (talk) 19:15, September 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Blood is a dark color in the manga, but Madara's blood is a lighter color. Here's an example of normal blood: http://www.mangareader.net/93-47870-14/naruto/chapter-485.html and Madara's: http://www.mangareader.net/93-41585-11/naruto/chapter-475.html

Fire Release
I wonder if this has already been talked about before, but isn't it wrong to leave out Fire Release among Madara's Nature Transformation affinities? I did remember in a flashback in his conversation with Sasuke that he used Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique in a woodcut depiction of his engagement with enemies. Besides, being an Uchiha, wasn't it given already? Please clarify if I had misconceptions. Magatama90 (talk) 17:57, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Check archives 3 and 4. The woodcut depiction was not deemed as a definite proof. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:06, July 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's stupid. It's a flashback showing him using a fire release, and that's not enough proof? But Tsunade has "presumed" lightning release affinity, because one of her techniques that is derived from medical ninjutsu affects the "electrical impulses of the human body." That's enough to have a "presumed" affinity, but a picture of him using fire release isn't? 66.165.170.254 (talk) 18:14, July 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it should be enough, but no one else does. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:23, July 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure Madara was never shown using fire release in the manga, in any form or way. If this woodcut clearly shows Madara doing a fire release technique, it shouldn't be problem adding it. Does anyone have a screenshot of this? --ShounenSuki (talk 00:39, July 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * According to the archive, the woodcut was shown in episode 136, meaning it was either in chapter 386 or 387 of the manga, so if it exists, it should be in the 42nd volume. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:50, July 23, 2010 (UTC)

There is a stylised image of an fight scene, with an Uchiha using a fire release. However, although he looks like Madara, there is no way to tell for certain. It is more likely that he was meant to be a symbolic representation for the entire Uchiha clan. --ShounenSuki (talk 08:03, July 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * In the Manga it's only a silouette, but in the Anime they show that it was Madara using the technique. And although I would agree the silouette isn't evidence enough, it's still safe to assume it is Madara, since the entire chapter was about him. 66.165.170.254 (talk) 14:31, July 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * The part where the silhouette was shown in the manga was about the Uchiha clan in general. Still, if it was clearly Madara in the anime, that should be enough to add the fire nature to hid info box, albeit with an anime only tag. i would like to see the anime scene, though. Could anyone post a screenshot or give me an episode number and a time index? --ShounenSuki (talk 15:07, July 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I guess this is the scene they are talking about. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 17:06, July 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * So, how do we conclude this problem? I suggest we put Fire Release and Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique with "anime only" tags and get this done with. Magatama90 (talk) 00:50, September 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Which episode from anime Madara uses fire release??? could someone tell me? --Rubião September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * This scene, from episode 136. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 14:59, September 11, 2010 (UTC) Madara and Fire.png
 * It probably was him... at least it's safe to assume that it's him since having the fire element has to be a continuous existing prerequisite trait within this clan how else wold they use the grand fireball technique as a rite of passage?--Cerez365 (talk) 15:09, September 11, 2010 (UTC)

He uses Great fire wall justu in:Nauto Ultimate Ninja Storm 2 aswel.

Links
In Madara's weapon area (the discription of what weapons he has) the link for his war fan takes you to a disambiguation. can this be fixed so that it goes directly to Madara's gunbai please?Lafon (talk) 16:04, July 8, 2010 (UTC)

Voice
Madara as far as I know hasn't appeared in an english version of something so where did this Richard Epcar thing come from?--Kisukeiscool100396 (talk) 20:58, July 14, 2010 (UTC)

It is planned that he will do the voice acting for Madaras character. Lure.d (talk) 03:47, September 19, 2010 (UTC)

Madara already appeared as Tobi in the English anime and in many recent games. 'Madara' himself has recently appeared in the new game, Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm 2.


 * And in NUS2 he's voiced by Nolan North. The S (talk) 07:27, October 18, 2010 (UTC)

weapons
add shackles shackles are kewl ^_^ --Cerez365 (talk) 13:59, July 16, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah on a serious (i think i was high when i typed that ^) shouldn't we add it as a weapon? they are unusual weapons and as far as i know is unique to Madara --Cerez365 (talk) 22:12, July 16, 2010 (UTC)

zryu chain Lure.d (talk) 03:42, September 19, 2010 (UTC)

Is it pipe Madara stabs Konan with? I thought it was sharpened bamboo.

What is he made of!?
What do you guys make of his arms against the 4th Hokage and Torune!? It looks like his is made of a white paste with a hard outer shell. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 16:57, July 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * The most popular theory I've seen says it involves Zetsu's clones. How "Madara is not as strong as he used to be" and "Zetsu can make perfect copies, right down to chakra, but they're not very strong". That, Spore Technique, and the Zetsu like thing near Madara when White Zetsu said Sasuke was fighting Team 7. Some also say he lost so much power because to survive his wounds from the battle with Hashirama, he had to use Izanagi, meaning his other eye is blind, and along with it, he can't use one MS technique, and no longer has access to Susanno, which according to theorists, he could use. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:23, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

So its theoretically possible that Madara's soul is encased in one of Zetsu's clones? Like using it as a vessel, simaler to Orochimaru's technuiques?--SixthMizukage (talk) 04:05, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Possess a clone? Very interesting. Edging near speculation, though that would explain the scene you see Madara in when Zetsu contacted him about Sasuke vs. Naruto. But are the clones not more solid? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 04:49, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

Im getting it more from the battle with Minato when his hand seems to have a hole in it and everything. And also Madara talking about the Gedo Rinne Tensei being made for him, to possess a body again perhaps? If Im speculating to much warn me.--SixthMizukage (talk) 05:05, July 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * No, that was mostly valuable information, I did not notice it was an actual hole in him. Thanks. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 17:13, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

@ Omnibender.... that thesis is 100% false since madara has the eternal mangekyo sharingan which he cannot be blinded 1david12(talk)


 * I'm sure if someone gouges out his eye or impales it he'd go bline. He can't go blind from usage of the eye but in the end it's still just an eye. And as it relates to what he's made of, it does have something to do with the damage done to him by Shodaime and Zetsu's abilities. In chapter 486 page 5 you can see a big glomp of Zetsu stuff and Madara's new formed hand --Cerez365 (talk)


 * Yes. His EMS can't go blind from strain of using MS techniques, but nothing was ever said it couldn't go blind from other things. MS techniques are all dangerous, but Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi and Susanno were never listed as kinjutsu, which Izanagi was. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:36, August 24, 2010 (UTC)

I'd have to agree that his survival to this point probably has more to do with zetsu than how he brags about his own strong chakra... not that he isn't strong. And i always figured there must be something up with his left eye as well. On a seperate note, I think his space time ninjutsu comes from his eternal ms. If you think about it, the only two characters to have a transplanted eye are him and kakashi, and both have developed space time nin with their eyes. so it seems it's a power one gains from transfering eyes.12.9.116.27 (talk) 06:04, September 12, 2010 (UTC) miah

it's safe to say, dispite having the EMS, the eyes can still be blinded, this is evident with The Animal Path. He got a kick to the face and was blinded. and that was the mightiest Dojutsu of them all. The Rinnegan. SharinganMike (talk) 23:56, September 13, 2010 (UTC)


 * =_= they mean from use of their abilities not if they're blinded by another means. They mean the person can use the EMS without their eyesight deteriorating --Cerez365 (talk) 03:37, September 14, 2010 (UTC)

well yeah, i know that, but just adding an extra point to what you said about the eye being gouged out or something. Because its quite evident that its a possiblity with what happened with Pain. SharinganMike (talk) 18:36, September 14, 2010 (UTC)

I think that he might have taken over Hashiramas body, as he could use the wood style to regenerate his arm and :maybe his sharingan: ... Secondly I think he still has access to many sharingan, meaning he could transplant the sharingans -maybe using mokuton- to transplant it. I think it is also possible that the sharingans lose the light temporarily as he has an eternal sharingan... that's all folks... ;-) MadaraCami (talk) 11:02, September 19, 2010 (UTC)

Power now
Judging by his fights, Madara is definetely stronger than a general jonin or high-Jonin (the ANBU personally assigned to the Hokage and Torune and Fu), but not stronger than a kage. If he had attacked the Kage summit, they too may have had a chance to react to him despite being sucked up, that is why he has not attacked them directly.
 * I put this down because it has been bugging me, and thus possibly others. Plus others may have things to add. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 17:00, July 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * His "charm" does not come with how powerful is he, but rather how careful and experienced he is. In fact, he lets others to do his bidding, that is his "main" talent, his manipulative abilities are without a doubt his most powerful resource, along with his knowledge, rather than having massive amounts of chakra or being physically strong. He also has an advantage few characters have, and relies on his use of Time-Space Techniques to overwhelm his opponents with the high defense and offensive it provides. And that's it, very cautious but strong is not the word. BGMaxie


 * First of all, the ANBU that protect the Hokage are not "high-Jonin" as there are no true ninja ranks within ANBU. They can be genin, chunin, or jonin. As to his power, I have two theories. 1) His battle with Hashirama seriously limited his power by some means that have not yet been explained (as both he and Itachi stated). 2) He prefers to act through others to have his enemies remain uneasy about who he is, what he is capable of, etc.66.165.170.254 (talk) 18:11, July 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Which rank would you have guarding the Fox? Regardless, you say that it is more of his intelligence that makes the difference? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 18:19, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps, since he only shows one eye, the other was destroyed in his fight with Hashirama? He has, afterall, only used one Mangekyo technique, so maybe he lost his other two if/when he lost an eye?SkyFlicker (talk) 00:40, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Which technique? When Sasuke (thanks to Itachi) used Amataseru on him I thought it was too awkward to see and erase/turn off (?). Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:37, September 10, 2010 (UTC)

de facto
I know this is just speculation, but is it posible that Madara was never acctually Mizukage, but controlling one of them, presumably Yagura because Madara can control the tailed beasts and such.--SixthMizukage (talk) 22:34, August 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * With the focus on Kisame in the latest chapters, we might actually get a flashback shedding light on this issue soon. For now, all we know is that Kisame called him a Mizukage. —ShounenSuki (talk 22:40, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

I see, I'll look up some spoilers today then, thanks.--SixthMizukage (talk) 22:48, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

Ahh, and I see that the spoilers were translated by you too. Thanks and well done.--SixthMizukage (talk) 22:52, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

We seem to have some light on this speculation now, Madara appears behind the forth Mizukage and only Kisame mentions him something like he being the man whos controlling the kage in essence the true mizukage. That plus the fact that he said i thought he was dead (refering to Madara) and NOT anything in the line of him being a previous mizukage i think it was only a nickname or just the way Kisame saw him.--FlameSkarr (talk) 12:43, August 26, 2010 (UTC)

Vulnerable to Amataseru still
Just a thought, but the way Madara has been throwing his teleportation jutsu around now and during the 9 Tailed invasion, that Itachi probably knew about it and what it could do, and still thought Amataseru would work. I know this borders on speculation and threatens to turn this site into a forum, but I am hoping these details relate mostly to facts that we have all already observed. If you believe it is too much speculation, feel free to remove it. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 20:04, August 26, 2010 (UTC)


 * If you're suggesting Amaterasu has some special quality, I think it's more likely that Itachi assumed Madara would need to solidify himself in order to remove his mask and reveal his Sharingan. ~SnapperTo 20:58, August 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * But not after the fire took hold? Just let it fall through him? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 23:20, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes that is a good point, but that doesn't mean it has special properties. After all the poison nano bugs caused him to lose his arm, even though he could have become intangible and make them fall out. He did put out the flames, despite them being stated as inextinguishable under normal means. He seemed to expect Itachi would implant Amaterasu in Sasuke, but wanted to be sure so let the flames flames hit him. The effect of Amaterasu is near instantaneous just as the vision that guides it. Madara wouldn't have been able to dodge the technique even with his teleportation technique due to it being implied as being slower than the Flying Thunder God which is instantaneous.WolfMaster (talk) 23:51, August 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * He seems to suggest escaping Amaterasu was because of some other, as yet unseen, ability, not his intang-ability. ~SnapperTo 00:59, August 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * That is what I am wondering. Itachi would probably have known by then what Madara could do, and was expecting it to work. I thought though the bugs got in while he was tangible, and they may have been too attached (I see them like nano-bots grabbing onto cells) to just fall out. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 20:00, August 29, 2010 (UTC)

My theory on how Madara got away from the Amataseru was that he teleported the rest of his body except the part that got ignited, since he can teleport parts of his body away he then can teleport the majority of his body away. Unfortunatly, I didn't pay that much attention during the Nano bug incident, so I really can't make a comment on that which means I have to re-read that section. 76.230.6.235 (talk) 18:21, October 31, 2010 (UTC) Andrew

Background: Organization
I have managed to annoy a few people lately so I thought I would do this via talk page first, but I was wondering if we could just break Madara's history up into something like Before Foundation of Konoha, Foundation of Konoha, Land of the Mists, Nine-Tailed Attack, since his history keeps expanding, and it is becoming a tad blurred for my liking; not aesthetically pleasing even. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 20:44, September 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * Part of the problem is clumping all of the information that happened at an unknown date together. So, maybe not a section for each chapter of his life but just a section where all gray areas of the timeline are given in bullet point. ~SnapperTo 22:39, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * So group the dates we know to when we know happened (the stuff involving Konoha for instance) together, and the unknown stuff (Mist Village) in its own section? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 19:19, September 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * Like what I already did. ~SnapperTo 19:28, September 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not exactly what I was getting at, but it shall suffice. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 00:15, September 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * His organization was Uchiha Clan. He took leadership and controlled it until he left it. It isnt instant until he joins Akatsuki, but he never mentions about any other organization so in my belief its Uchiha Clan and Akatsuki : the 2 organizations he was in. We cant tell that hes from mist, becouse Kisame Hoshigaki notices him controlling the Mizukage with Sharingan. But i cant say its 100% true, since all his life he was always moving across countries so we cant say he wasnt involved in any other organization. Lure.d (talk) 04:12, September 19, 2010 (UTC)

Minor Confusion: vs. Konan
When Konan had Madara surrounded by paper, did he somehow push it all away so that he would be able to grab her? I was not sure what exactly happened. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 20:52, September 9, 2010 (UTC)

No, I'm guessing he simply found natural opening to rematerialize into. --RinneganLov63 (talk) 21:13, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Also, what is he doing here? Hovering? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:48, September 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Falling? —ShounenSuki (talk 09:53, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Would be reasonable, but almost seems like he is standing still. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 19:03, September 10, 2010 (UTC)

No, he used Izanagi to make himself immaterial and take no damage from the attack. LeafNinjaGoku (talk) 20:33, October 11, 2010 (UTC)

Konan's jutsu lasted 10mins. Madara's intangable justu only lasts 5mins. Madara probably used his intangable jutsu first, and then used Izanagi, which means he would've had time to run behind Konan after she was out of chakra and confident in his death. Also, Madara was probable caught in the explosins for seconds, explaining why his eye was showing.

Hidden Stash
I wonder if Madara has a hidden stash of arms somewheres or something? He's already lost it twice now. SkyFlicker (talk) 23:20, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's just a flesh wound! —ShounenSuki (talk 23:36, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Lost a hand to the fourth too, but that does not look like human flesh, or normal flesh at least, to me. And whoever did that video has no concept of chainmail. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:45, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * "whoever did that video has no concept of chainmail" OMFG... WTF... is wrong... with the world. Arrancar79 (talk) 03:36, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Stuff like that which makes people wonder why people wear armour in the first place!! Thinking that people just blundered around in metal for the fun of it!! Off topic though. What about those arms and hands? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 05:03, September 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think Arrancar was aiming at your woeful lack of knowledge of Monthy Python...
 * We'll find out about Madara's limbs in due time. —ShounenSuki (talk 09:52, September 10, 2010 (UTC)

Tsukiyomi
Madara himself has said that his plan is to become the jinchuuriki of the Ten-Tails, then cast a Tsukiyomi on the moon to put everyone in a trance, correct? Well in order for that to occur, Madara would have to know Tsukiyomi. So, why isn't it listed in his abilities, and why isn't he on the list of users?--Kagi mizu -Seeya 'round 03:05, September 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Or maybe he can't use it until the Ten-Tails is sealed into him? ~SnapperTo 05:48, September 10, 2010 (UTC)

Possibly, but from the information currently known, the Ten-Tails is only needed for the infinite Tsukiyomi, not the average version. Along with his Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan, the mentions of his past strength and ability in using the sharingan, it would be dafe to assume that he is, or at least was capable of using Tsukiyomi. And even if he is not capable of using it at the moment, it should still be added, due to the fact that, despite no longer being able to use either, Body Shedding and Cursed Seal of Heaven are both still among the list of Sasuke Uchiha's jutsu.--Kagi mizu -Seeya 'round 06:02, September 10, 2010 (UTC)

I actually tried to add it once. The mods don't add jutsu to the wiki unless it was seen being used.

Surgical Knowledge and Ability
How can Madara's replacing his limbs be considered surgical ability or knowledge? Surgical Knowledge is the capability of performing medical operations, in Madara's case without medical ninjutsu. How he replaced his arm is entirely unknown; it can't even be clearly classified as any type of technique or jutsu. For all we know, it could be Zetsu regurgitating devoured limbs or the stored limb of a corpse (sorry for the examples, but it's to make a point). From what can be seen, Madara didn't have to perform any surgery on himself or the limb to attach it. Hardly anything's known about the procedure, so it can't be considered surgical knowledge or ability, at least until more has been seen concerning this. This also removes the confirmed information of Madara removing and preserving Itachi's eyes, transplanting said eyes to Sasuke successfully, and even, with or without assistance, transplanting his brothers eyes to himself despite blindess (the second being most likely, since no-one really knows how he got the eyes from his brother).--Kagi mizu -Seeya 'round 07:17, September 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * first of all it was not properly discussed, you made this and suddenly just added it when no one responded. Asside from that there is so little knowledge that two of the users don't belive it deserves it own section. Adding the part that he was able to transplate his brother's eyes and then the part were there is no knowledge that he recieved help. That last part makes it to vague and too speculative. Also seeing how we know he was able to do it with Sasuke, makes writting his possible abillity to perform on himself to redundant. Also we do not remove it, we only sort it under another section were it fits better. --Gojita (talk) 21:13, September 15, 2010 (UTC)Gojita


 * I added this information in its own sections weeks, if not months ago, with absolutely no complaints from any other Users. I made a point to mention that whether or not he recieved help is unknown, to state that there is a reasonable possibility that he did have assistance, but it is also possible he did it on his own. The fact that he is the only character so far who has been able to perform such actions, without known medical jutsu, is quite unique, and deserves a special mention.--Kagi mizu -Seeya 'round 21:19, September 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * I think it should be put were the other General skills and abilities are until we gather more intelligence, so to speak. FullMetalXY (talk) 21:26, September 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * But this is far from a general skill. Aside from medic-nin, there is no-one else who can perform surgery, with or without medical jutsu. Madara is most deffinitely not a medic-nin, with no known medical jutsu at his disposal, yet he was capable of performing surgery at least two times, maybe three.--<font color="#0000FF">Kagi <font color="#FF0000">mizu -<font color="#008000">Seeya <font color="#FFA500">'round 21:30, September 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * First of all: No Users complained ehh... That is what the discussion pages is for amongst others. Also i can see you started the discussion today actually(the time stamp you left in the message and the history lock) Please don't lie


 * Secondly: Wow isn't that about surgical ability without beeing a medic-nin a little bit to speculative. Medical and Surgical knowledge is a vague concept in the Naruto universe and Kishi have not revealed much about it. This i belive fits best under the general skills section until we can get a more clear description of how exactly he is doing it --Gojita (talk) 21:35, September 15, 2010 (UTC)Gojita

Yeah, I can understand your point. My major concern is with the lack of intelligence. We don't really know if he sews his arms back on or if they are put on by other means or if he didn't have help transplanting Itachi Uchicha's eyes. It's just like somoone saying he is Scientist cause he has a laboratory. See what I'm saying? FullMetalXY (talk) 21:37, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Gojita, it belongs with general skills until we have more info.--Deva 27 (talk) 21:39, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

Alright, sewing his arms on I agree with; we have no idea where or how he gets those limbs, nor how he attaches them. I specifically mentioned that in my first post on this section. However, transplanting Itachi's eyes is pretty much a no-brainer. You think Zetsu is some sort of medic-nin?--<font color="#0000FF">Kagi <font color="#FF0000">mizu -<font color="#008000">Seeya <font color="#FFA500">'round 21:40, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

Little is known about Zetsu. He could be for all we know. Or there could be some other way Sharingans are transplanted. The point is we don't know. We should wait until we are able to concretely confirm this. Okay? --FullMetalXY (talk) 21:43, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

No, there is no other way for the eyes to be transplanted. In a flashback, Madara was shown about to take out his brother's eyes. In Kakashi Gaiden, Rin was shown trasnplanting Obito's eye to Kakashi. In a genjutsu, Itachi plucked out one of Sasuke's eyes. Madara had to remove and preserve Itachi's eyes for transplantation, and Sasuke was shown after the fact recovering from the surgery. If something isn't known for 100% certainty, it's decided by known information. Known information places Zetsu far from being a medic-nin (he'd sooner eat them rather than perform surgery on them), there is no other way to transplant sharingan eyes, there is no-one who could have helped Madara, and Madara is the only character so far who can perform surgery despite no medic-nin training.--<font color="#0000FF">Kagi <font color="#FF0000">mizu -<font color="#008000">Seeya <font color="#FFA500">'round 21:53, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

Rin was a Medic Ninja with Mystical Palm. We still have not seen any evidence so far that Uchicha Madara has the surgical ability to implant a Sharingan eye into himself or another person unaided. A flash black showing Madara about to takeout his brothers eyes is not showing him implanting it, it simply shows him reaching out to his brothers eyes. How do we know that he wasn't just taking them out and giving them to medics in his clan? We don't do we? Itachi plucking Sasukes eyes in a Genjutsu (Illusion!) is not evidence either. Madara preserving Itachis eyes does not automatically mean he himself will perform the operation. We cannot say there is no one who could help Madara, we do not know that yet. I can slightly agree to what you said about Zetsu. He is mostly for surveillance. Any how it is better to wait to find conclusive conscrete proof than jump to conclusions. It's not a big deal for it to be moved to general skills when there is so little known about his "Surgical Abilities". In any case we need to come to an agreement to avoid silly editing wars. I call for a vote, if thats possible? :)--FullMetalXY (talk) 22:07, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

You are twisting the meaning of my words. Those examples were to disprove the idea that the sharingan eyes cannot be transplanted any other way. As for getting aid from clan medics, since no-one knew how he got his brother's eyes, including his own clan, I doubt the medics assisted him. As for transplanting Itachi's eyes; there was no-one else present when the eyes were transplanted, there was no-one else present with known medical experience. As for going by known information rather than waiting for explicit evidence, ask the admins of this wiki, because that's how they do things.--<font color="#0000FF">Kagi <font color="#FF0000">mizu -<font color="#008000">Seeya <font color="#FFA500">'round 22:14, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

Something being unusual doesn't mean it should get its own section. We know Tobirama used spacetime ninjutsu and Edo Tensei, the first being something hardly used as a main style and the second one known to three people. They don't get their own sections in his page. I agree with Snapper2 and Deva 27. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:20, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

True enough, but Madara's surgical knowledge has been shown more than once. And if this should be removed, then why not this? That is a perfectly trivial, useless "ability", yet it is given its own section. It doesn't even touch upon her battle abilities.--<font color="#0000FF">Kagi <font color="#FF0000">mizu -<font color="#008000">Seeya <font color="#FFA500">'round 22:24, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

Can you describe what and when Madara's surgical skills have been displayed please? Have we actually visually seen any surgery performed by Madara Uchicha in Manga with out guessing.--FullMetalXY (talk) 22:33, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

First, when he had revealed that he had removed and preserved Itachi's eyes. Both would require surgical knowledge (how to remove them and what to use to preserve them). Then, he transplanted said eyes to Sasuke with no known assistance, successfully. Then, there was the transplant of his own brother's eyes, with or without assistance. And looking at one of your comments Gojita, I would like to point out that I most deffinitely did not lie; if you bothered looking at the main page's history, you'd see that I added this information weeks or months ago.--<font color="#0000FF">Kagi <font color="#FF0000">mizu -<font color="#008000">Seeya <font color="#FFA500">'round 22:38, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

I don't ever remember him stating that he himself removed the eyes (Even if he did it wouldn't denote surgical ability as he could have simply plucked them out in a similar fashion to the way Itachi did in Tsukuyomi). Nor did we actually see Madara transplant the eyes but Madara did display knowledge that he knew Sasuke needed recuperation but that was probably due to his own experience after the surgery that was done on him. And we don't know if the surgery done on him was by his own hand, by medics or was aided by some one. The same with the operation on Sasuke. So in the end its up to guessing. Just like everyone else I say this doesn't have a enough merit to have its own section. 'Nuff Said. : )--FullMetalXY (talk) 22:52, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

Alright look; there was no-one else in the room when Sasuke was recuperating from the surgery. Unless there was some invisble character that will never be shown or named, Madara did it on his own. In terms of removing the eyes, I seriously doubt Madara would trust anyone else to remove the eyes. He also would have had to be able to remove the eyes without damaging them (on a side note, I find it funny how you said Tsukiyomi didn't count when I used it as an example, yet it counts for you despite still being an illusion), and would have to know how to preserve them.--<font color="#0000FF">Kagi <font color="#FF0000">mizu -<font color="#008000">Seeya <font color="#FFA500">'round 22:57, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

No I said that it was an illusion so I did not count for surgical ability. I didn't say anything about the plucking out of eyes. Lol. Lets not argue please. Thanks. As for the Invisible Character, may be he she left after the operation since we never witnessed the operation? Whether you seriously doubt anything is irrelevant, all that matters are it is cold hard facts. When I see Madara in a doctors robe transplanting eyes is when this section will garner further merit. 'Nuff said.--FullMetalXY (talk) 23:04, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

Well you are never going to see that. However, there is a difference between assumptions, guessing, and common sense. There was no-one else seen after the surgery, so believing that someone else assisted him despite no-one being seen is more of a guess than believing Madara did it himself. As for Tsukiyomi, it goes both ways. As an illusion nothing shown in it can be taken into 100% belief.--<font color="#0000FF">Kagi <font color="#FF0000">mizu -<font color="#008000">Seeya <font color="#FFA500">'round 23:08, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

There was no-one else seen after the surgery? Fact. The Surgery was not seen? Fact. Guessing implies that there is no factual evidence to support claim. Madara performed the surgery himself? UNKNOWN at this moment, but plausible. That simple enough?--FullMetalXY (talk) 23:23, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

I think that both limb regeneration and surgical/medical skills should be mentioned. However, because limb regeneration is something we actually saw in the manga, more than once, and likely once more, since Konan trashed his arm, it should have its own section. Surgical/medical skill should be mentioned, because nothing implies Madara had help in removing, conserving and transplanting Itachi's eyes. He also had Danzo in a table, suggesting he wanted to remove Shisui's eye from him as well. I won't count the transplant of Izuna's eyes to him as an example, because that was a genjutsu flashback, and we don't know what happened in between those scenes, nor how much time passed. With Sasuke, we saw Sasuke saying he wanted the eyes, and not long after, eyes were already transplanted, and nothing suggests Madara had help. Since it's something we didn't actually see, it's something we infer from what we see, I don't think it should have its own section, being mentioned in the general skill section. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:33, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough. Especially about the limb replacement thingy. Definately gotta be mentioned.--FullMetalXY (talk) 23:36, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

So long as the surgical ability and knowledge isn't reduced to simply two sentences, I guess I can deal with that. However, the limb regeneration might be iffy. It may have been seen more times, but even less is known about how it works. Don't know who or what does it, how it's done, or what type of technique it is, or what exactly it entails.--<font color="#0000FF">Kagi <font color="#FF0000">mizu -<font color="#008000">Seeya <font color="#FFA500">'round 23:39, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

The Limb Regenaration thing could possibly go either way in my opinion. The problem is there is little known about its mechanisms and workings and such. We know he can replace limbs but we don't know how. So?????--FullMetalXY (talk) 23:43, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

I think the fact that no surgery has been seen is no guarantee that Madara has no skill with it, first of all he is one of, if not the most skilled characters currently active in the series and has lived longer than any other curently seen character (except maybe kakkuzu?) he had ample time in hiding to learn surgical skills. Second, surgery is a long and drawn out process, even the most simple surgical procedures take a while to do, and removal of an eye is not simple, we have seen madara preparing for surgery/autopsy on danzo, and with sasuke after his eye transplant, perhaps kishimoto simply didnt want to waste time drawing 20 odd panels detailing a surgery when showing another part of the story, and returning to madara later on gives an idea of time passing. Finally, we really have no idea what surgery actually entails in NARUTO, the same rules my not apply to human physiology, in fact we know this because there is an additional circulatory system for chakra, and kimmimaro was mentioned to have had a different physiology to most humans. im not saying he can or cant do surgery, or that he could or couldnt transfer the eyes/arms himself, im just saying the lack of evidence may just be an artistic/time based choice by Kishimoto. 81.98.252.151 (talk) 10:41, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

Madara&Tobi
Can we do a wiki about Madara and one of Tobi?

Madara and Tobi are same persons.Tobi is Madara, Madara is Tobi --Ttogafer (talk) 15:52, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

Left eye
At last, his left eye! --Ttogafer (talk) 19:53, September 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * Guess he has to make a new mask with the hole for the other eye, since his right eye is now permanently blind :D Abells92 (talk) 20:22, September 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * Wrong, it's his left eye that he used for Izanagi.--<font color="#0000FF">Kagi <font color="#FF0000">mizu -<font color="#008000">Seeya <font color="#FFA500">'round 20:26, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

He isn't gonna need that eye now anyway. He's got the Rinnegan. =/ Gojinn (talk) 09:46, September 16, 2010 (UTC)

or he may just use the dozens of sharingan eyes he has in his lab, unlikely but we don't know his plans--Cmcwiki (talk) 13:55, September 16, 2010 (UTC)

I'm guessing that his left eye isn't HIS left eye. the sclera was dark like danzo's eye. I'm guessing its one of the eyes he has on his lab. if he always had both eyes he would use a mask with two eye holes Darksusanoo (talk) 01:45, September 19, 2010 (UTC)

Only right Tobi's Sharingan may use Space Time Technique Seregond (talk) 15:19, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

Identity Confirmed
After this can we say that it is indeed Uchiha Madara, that it is confirmed? He had no reason to lie (psychologically Konan was already nearly broken and she was about to die anyways), and this clears up the question on whether or not he actually died fighting the 1st. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 22:28, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

I don't thnk he died.... He's too smart to die.... I think he used Izanagi 1david12 . (talk) 22:40, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

He couldnt of used Izanagi. He would have lost one of his eyes if he did. But i guess that he is actually Uchiha Madara. --SixthMizukage (talk) 22:44, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

He DID lose one of his eyes. You might have missed it.Questionaredude (talk) 23:18, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

He lost an eye against Konan, not against Hashirama. If anything he used his space time technuique.--SixthMizukage (talk) 23:22, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

He lost his Sharingan thanks of use to Izanagi. Evidence: http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/81065970/11. Or go to Mangastream and read Chapter 510 page 11.--FullMetalXY (talk) 23:28, September 15, 2010 (UTC)

Mizukage means he couldn't have used Izanagi against HASHIRAMA, as he would have lost one of his eyes then, and not have the chance to use it again against Konan without losing his other eye and becoming blind (not to mention he wouldn't be able to have discovered Nagato's location without his right eye). Bruxacosmica Talk 21:42, September 16, 2010 (UTC)

Wouldn't his EMS protect him from the effects of Izanagi and allow his eyes to still remain functional. Varpilah 22:01, September 16, 2010 (UTC)

Apparently not, since his usage of Izanagi he has been seen with a blinded left eye. Plus Izanagi is said to work only with a normal sharingan--RinneganLov63 (talk) 00:51, September 17, 2010 (UTC)

They never said Izanagi works only with the regular Sharingan. For all we know it could also blind the EMS, which was said only to not go blind from use of MS techniques. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:39, September 17, 2010 (UTC)

He might not have lost his eye when he used IZanagi. This is just a theory. When you use Izanagi with a sharingan you lose your eyes that's already proven. When you use Mangekyou Jutsus with a regular MS sharingan, the eye goes blind depending on use. The EMS no longer goes bling to Ms jutsus.So maybe Izanagi with an EMS might go blind for a certain period of time or might go blind in time, like the Ms jutsus did with a regular Ms. he probably use Izanagi on the first hokage to fake his death, and in time his eye gained its light again. I say this because maadara has been proven to be really smart in both battle tack ticks and in general life, so i don't believe he would just throw his eye away. Or he might implant Riningan in to hies left eye. rigoberto60 (talk) 01:51, September 17, 2010 (UTC)

Maybe he did use Izanagi during his fight with Hashirama and just replaced it later, he does have a room full of corpses. Its possible that he only uses his left eye for Izanagi, then replaces it. --76.117.233.76 (talk) 20:55, September 17, 2010 (UTC) i agree aswel, with the ems u never lose ur light, when danzo was using izangai he only had ms, so they can all go blind after its use, but cuz he cant go blind cuz of the ems, im guessing he can use izangai as much as he wants, but not to the extent he would like, or else he would hav used it on the 4, remeber he got his ems, way befoe his last fight with harashima, so he could of used it on him--Onepiecefreak (talk) 19:49, September 19, 2010 (UTC)(onepiecefreak)

Danzō didn't have Mangekyō Sharingan. Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan was only said to resist blindness induced by use of Mangekyō Sharingan techniques. Izanagi isn't a Mangekyō Sharingan technique, so the user may still go blind. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:19, September 19, 2010 (UTC)

What does he mean?
What does he mean when he says, "Two of the six paths are now one being"?http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/81065970/13 Questionaredude (talk) 00:00, September 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think he is talking about how he both Uchiha and Senju's power within him.--Deva 27 (talk) 00:02, September 16, 2010 (UTC)

I think it refers to the 6 people who are decendants of the sage of 6 paths. 1,himself. 2,hashirama senju. 3,nagato uzumaki. the uzumakis are relatives and madara said he was one. these are just those i suspect of being the other 3 paths. 4,naruto uzumaki. 5,sasuke uchiha. 6,tsunade senju. that makes 2 from each of the sages 3 decended clans.Light sage96 (talk) 15:51, September 16, 2010 (UTC)

I actually dont think so because Madara stated that he wanted to be complete. So i think: 1.Ushiha Blood, 2. Senju Body or Blood, 3. Rinnegan, 4. the Bijuu, 5. unknown 6. unknown --> He wants to be the 2. Sage of the Six Paths and needs his abilitys for that

I'm intrigued by the concept of there being 6 different 'paths' (presumed) that Madara needs to "collect" or "become one with". I'm curious as to what the other three could be. I agree with the above over the concept of the Bijuu being one of the six 'paths', though i wonder what the other two could possibly be. Abells92 (talk) 23:57, September 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sage Mode? ZeroSD (talk) 00:37, September 17, 2010 (UTC)

No I think it's the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path. Kiba347 (talk)13:21 September 20, 2010

But Madara stated that he was the one who gave nagato the rinnegan in the first place

And he didn't elaborate on it. For all we know, he could have meant he arranged so Konoha nin would be near where Nagato was and controlled them to kill Nagato's parents, which awakened the Rinnegan. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:41, September 18, 2010 (UTC)

I think He refers to these: Senju and Uchiha blood. the other 4 could be Uzumaki blood (as a relative of senju)... and maybe hyuuga blood (as a reletive of uchiha)and two other clans may be the sarutobi clan and the shimura clan... the last part is only speculation so it could be crap.

This is a mistranslation: actually Madara calls himself "Second Rikudou", because he has the ability of the manipulation of the Yin and the Yang type of chakra (thanks to the power of the Uchiha and of the Senju): in his definition, anyone can use simultaneously the Yin-Yang natures of chakra for the release of tecniques (for exemple as a perfect Izanagi) can be described as a Rikudou: Nagato could do with the Rinnegan, which is why Madara calls him "Third Rikuodu. The correct translation is: "I am the Uchiha Madara that obtained the power of Senju Hashirama! As the second Rikudou, both are now one being!" --JK88 (talk) 16:29, September 23, 2010 (UTC)

Wood User?
Should we add Wood Element to Madara? He says "he fought that battle to gain access to his abilities, he seemed to say you needed both for Izanagi. Also, Izanagi should require the Wood Classification as well right? Arrancar79 (talk) 21:59, September 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, he has not displayed these abilities, and we do not what he means by that. Izanagi is a genjutsu that uses yin and yang, Madara just said that you need the power of a Senju and Uchiha. Which could refer to the power the "eyes" and "body".--Deva 27 (talk) 22:09, September 16, 2010 (UTC)

In Chapter 510, page 12 he states,"I am Uchiha Madara! The Man Who Obtained Hashirama Senju's Powers! Two of the six paths are now one Being!". This clearly proves that he got himself the mokuton and all of hashiramas powers, not only his blood... --MadaraCami (talk) 16:16, September 23, 2010 (UTC)

Shouldn't someone write something about mokuton and suiton in his abilities section? tnx ...--MadaraCami (talk) 19:00, September 23, 2010 (UTC)

I wrotte this in another section too so here goes:

Isn't this: "The true winner is he who chose to focus on the future... and the real fight is about to begin. I fought that battle to gain access to his abilities. I am Madara Uchiha! The man who obtained Hashirama Senju's powers!", enough proof that he has hashiramas powers?!! This is proof that he can use mokuton... which may be how he can regenerate his limbs...--MadaraCami (talk) 20:28, September 23, 2010 (UTC)

You make it seem like Hashirama's only powers were Mokuton. Because you have a quote that vagueuly states he had "powers" you claim yourself right. Also, how does Mokuton mean he can regenerate his limbs?--KingBarragan (talk) 20:32, September 23, 2010 (UTC)

Remember: Yamato creates a clone using mokuton. Madara could use the same principle to create an arm. This iwas only speculation so is probably not true. However as I said... To use izanagi Danzo had a mokuton arm... this could mean that mokuton is needed for izanagi. In fact mokuton's special thing is that the user isn't just manipulating plant life... but creating life. while the sharingan uses more yin release, mokuton uses yang release to create life. Thogether they create yin yang... needed to use izanagi. Also he said powers... All of them ... not 1 or 2 ...all of them. --MadaraCami (talk) 20:39, September 23, 2010 (UTC)

You're clearing speculating. That's like me saying that Blaze Release is needed for Susanoo--KingBarragan (talk) 21:23, September 23, 2010 (UTC)

Surely, he was reffering to the earlier part of the series where he explaind that the sage's power was split in two and that the uchiha ancestor had the eyes and the spiritual powers and the senju ancestor had the body and the physical power, therefore when he gained hashirama's power he gained the physical aspect of the sages abilies and thus became a rikudo, if you seriously think that madara has copied mokuton the go back to school and learn to actually read, the sharingan CANNOT COPY KEKKAI GENKAI, also mokuton is cosidered one of the most powerful kekkai genkai in the series, even kisame thought twice about going up against yamato, and everyone who has witnessed it has been impressed or scared by it, if madara genuinely had it dont you think he would have used against Danzo, or Minato? Seriously sometimes i look at the discussion pages and find myself wondering if i am the only person in the world who can remember major plot points. 81.98.252.151 (talk) 10:59, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

Fire Ball Jutsu?
When did he do that?Umishiru (talk) 08:22, September 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Read this section. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 09:22, September 18, 2010 (UTC)

Yin-yang
Should yin-yang chakra be stated in the ability section like in the page of the sage of six paths? Darksusanoo (talk) 01:58, September 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * It shouldn't have its own section because the only thing he has done is Izanagi, which is mentioned under the sharingan section.--Deva 27 (talk) 02:01, September 19, 2010 (UTC)

Hashirama Powers
Sorry for writing it anonymousely... Here goes...

I think that since Madara took control over Hashirama Senju's powers, he has mokuton and water release aswell, (since earth release is already mentioned in his info box...) So he has another kekkei genkai...
 * Still, we have no evidence yet. We have to wait and see what comes up in future chapters. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 09:47, September 19, 2010 (UTC)

the wood release and water release should be removed from Madara's elemental jutsu info box. Dispite having (possibly) next to it. It's stated that Senju blood and Uchiha blood is needed for Izangi. Doesn't mean he has access too Wood Release. Get it removed until we seen him use it! SharinganMike (talk) 11:39, September 19, 2010 (UTC)

Isn't this: "The true winner is he who chose to focus on the future... and the real fight is about to begin. I fought that battle to gain access to his abilities. I am Madara Uchiha! The man who obtained Hashirama Senju's powers!", enough proof that he has hashiramas powers?!! This is proof that he can use mokuton... which may be how he can regenerate his limbs...--MadaraCami (talk) 20:27, September 23, 2010 (UTC)

Assumption unfounded
"He also lost his ability to control the Nine-Tails due to Fourth Hokage's Contract Seal further damaging his abilites."

I think this sentence is only an assumption and that it should be removed from the section of his abilities. It's true that Minato was able to take away control of fox 16 years ago but was never told, or implicated, that Madara still possesses this "seal of restriction" (the seal of the fourth could be temporary or otherwise Madara could have it canceled after his escape from Konoha in a similar way to Jiraya with the removal of the Orochimaru's five elements seal from Naruto) [Edit: Sorry I had forgotten my signature]. --JK88 (talk) 20:59, September 20, 2010 (UTC)

Minato stated that the seal was for life. Don't forget The fourth's sealing abilities were only rivaled by his wife.TwinRisingDragons (talk) 16:38, September 20, 2010 (UTC)

minato never stated that the seal is for life. next time when you claim somthing,proof it. where is it in the manga, episode and page?Shauli (talk) 18:25, September 20, 2010 (UTC)

503 pages 5 & 8.TwinRisingDragons (talk) 02:27, September 21, 2010 (UTC)

I checked the manga... Nobody said that the seal is for life. I think JK88 is right and so is Shauli. --MadaraCami (talk) 07:22, September 23, 2010 (UTC)

Nickname "Second Rikudou"
Shouldn't we add, among the nicknames of Madara, also "Third Rikudou" (or "Third sage of six paths")? PS: This nickname comes from the sentenc of Madara of the Chapter 510, page 12, third panel, that from someone was mistranslated into "I am Uchiha Madara! The Man Who Obtained Hashirama Senju's Powers! Two of the six paths are now one Being!", but the correct translation is: "I am the Uchiha Madara that obtained the power of Senju Hashirama! As the second Rikudou, both are now one being!"--JK88 (talk) 16:43, September 23, 2010 (UTC)

Its not a nickname if no one calls him that, he is not known as the second rikudou.Zicoihno (talk) 21:55, September 23, 2010 (UTC)

Rinnegan
According to this page, Madara took Nagato's Rinnegan. Shouldn't this be in the article? 98.200.125.177 (talk) 15:02, September 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * The rinnegan should be added in the kekke genkai's list.
 * Until it is shown that Madara put the Rinnegan in his own sockets, it doesn't show up in his infobox. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:05, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

agreed, we only see that he has a new mask, for all we know he could be giving them to sasuke, he did say after all that sasuke would be nagato's replacement, and i think at this point he can easily manipulate him.--Cmcwiki (talk) 14:32, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

Madara wouldn't give Sasuke Uchiha the Rinnegan because now that Sasuke has the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan, Madara wouldn't go again and replace Sasuke's newly given eyes. 1david12 . (talk) 17:48, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, the pattern on the new mask suggests that he does have it. And I assume we won't be seeing his eyes (or at least his left eye) or behind his mask for a while. We could label it as presumed, because there are things tha point to it. The mask (also since it has two holes), the fact that he only has one working eye, and what Kabuto said. Vik0z0z (talk) 20:23, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

How does the pattern of his mask mean he has the Rinnegan? Its looks like its just supposed to represent the eye of the Ten Tailed Beast (hurrdurr, he's collecting the 9 other Tailed Beast the Sharingan and the Rinnegan I wonder what he's gonna do with all them)--KingBarragan (talk) 22:52, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * If you had any common sense, you would realize that that Jubigan (I just made that up for the sake of this conversation) has bot Sharingan and Rinnegan patterns, singifying that Madara has both. (As you said, "hurrdurr") Vik0z0z (talk) Kami da! 23:12, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

The hurdurr wasn't at you, just meant that its probably another motive of his--KingBarragan (talk) 04:54, September 26, 2010 (UTC)

I know this topic is getting old now, but would it not be prudent to say that madara is the owner of the only known rinnegan, we know he took it from nagato even if he didn't implant it, i think it is noteworthy since the rinnegan will most likely be amongst the most powerful weapons in the upcoming war. i know this 'isn't a forum' and speculation is not appreciated, however i beleive that as the rinnegan is a central plot point in part 2 it is better to say he owns it (which we know) and keep the people who think he implanted it happy, and also does not state to the reader anything that is untrue. maybe in the abilities section or equiptment we could put that he owns it but what his plans for it are remains to be seen. 86.135.13.51 (talk) 06:52, October 11, 2010 (UTC)

Masks
So, three masks, three paths. A new mask right after he gains the Rinnegan. I'm thinking there's a connection. Maybe the masks have something to do with the paths. So, as far as I can tell, his paths are the sharingan, rinnegan, and senju DNA. (Three paths)98.111.245.135 (talk) 18:08, September 23, 2010 (UTC)

80% agreed --Petar93 (talk) 18:41, September 23, 2010 (UTC)

No, the sentence of chapter 510: "I am Uchiha Madara! The Man Who Obtained Hashirama Senju's Powers! Two of the six paths are now one Being!" was a mistranslation. The correct translation is: "I am the Uchiha Madara that obtained the power of Senju Hashirama! As the second Rikudou, both are now one being!.

Moreover, the theory does not work because Madara said that he has obtained the power of Senjuu after the fight with Hashirama In The Valley Of The End. And it is only after that battle and his "death" that Madara has begun to wear a mask (the one we see during his meeting with Itachi), even if during his meeting with Kisame, which occurred long before, Madara even wore a mask.--JK88 (talk) 19:23, September 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * I would like you to prove that it is a mistranslation please. Give me the Japanese text, the translation you have, and I will run what I have with our translator here to get everything straight.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 19:34, September 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately I don't possess the raw of the chapter 510, but I can assure you that if you search in the web, many translators have noticed this mistranslation (I usually read the translation from Japanese to Italian by Shunran). However I found a site where should be present the Japanese text of the chapter 510 and where there are two translation, the first of the same Shounensuki, confirming the version of the Second Rikudou. The link is here: http://www.inaruto.net/spoilers/naruto-510-spoilers/ You can see the translation of Shunensuki also in his talk page. Moreover, in these two posts, there are the translation of the passage by an user of Mangahelpers that can explain better than I could ever do (I don't know the Japanese) the reasons of the translation and of the misunderstanding:

http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2085210&postcount=18 / http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2085409&postcount=22--JK88 (talk) 20:21, September 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't have believed it if it hadn't been on ShounenSuki's page. Well met.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 22:26, September 23, 2010 (UTC)


 * I just want to make sure I understand. So the correct translation basically means that Madara had considered himself the Second Second Sage of Six Paths, and with the "power" of Senju Hashirama, he is complete. By contrast, the mistranslation implied there were other people he needed to gain powers from, one for each path, in order to achieve full strength. More or less right? XRoadToDawnX (talk) 04:25, September 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes you are right, but specifically, Madara considered himself Second Rikudou because he has the "power" of Hashirama and the "power" of the Uchiha, that allow him to use the manipulation of yin and yang. Practically he considered "Rikudou" anyone can manipulate concurrently both the Yin and Yang (Nagato could do because he had the Rinnegan).--JK88 (talk) 09:39, September 24, 2010 (UTC)

I understand where you're coming from with that particular translation, but a few pages later, when he finds Nagato, he says that Nagato is the third of six paths. I don't think Madara is modest enough to compare Nagato to a level he just acquired. So, either what is the translation there, or does your previous translation need revisited? DemonFoxsCloak (talk) 19:56, September 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * The way I interpret the text is that Madara considers himself the second [Sage of the] Six Paths, because Uchiha + Senju = Sage of the Six Paths. Nagato, having the Rinnegan and as such also the power of the Sage, is the third [Sage of the] Six Paths. However, Madara doesn't consider himself complete yet, as he still needs the Ten-Tails. —ShounenSuki (talk 21:34, September 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * So, what you're saying is Madara doesn't consider himself complete because he still needs the ten-tails, yet Nagato didn't have the ten tails and you just said that Madara did call him the third sage of six paths. I'm either very confused, or you are. DemonFoxsCloak (talk) 01:04, October 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * You simply didn't read my post very well. I said that Madara considers both himself and Nagato as a [Sage of the] Six Path, because both have both Senju and Uchiha powers fully mastered, just like the original Sage had even without the Ten-Tails. However, Madara doesn't consider himself complete yet, because he still lack the Ten-Tails, which is what made the original Sage so godly. —ShounenSuki (talk 02:13, October 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * How exactly did Nagato master the Uchiha powers? DemonFoxsCloak (talk) 03:17, October 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * he meant that Madara saw Nagato as being the master of both Senju and Uchiha, due to his Rinnegan Fangzntalonz (talk) 03:40, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

Exactly. Senju + Uchiha = Rikudō. Nagato = Rikudō. Ergo Nagato = Senju + Uchiha.

However, Madaraperfect = (Senju + Uchiha) * Jūbi = Rikudōgod. —ShounenSuki (talk 11:55, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

I love Naruto math! However, I'm a little disappointed that there's not three more amazing powers Madara has to gain. AH! New idea. Is it possible he developed his space-time jutsu from the eternal mangekyou. No one has ever seen that jutsu, and he's the only person ever to awaken the eternal mangekyou (except Sasuke). And, back to my original idea, that jutsu looks a lot like his second (Tobi's) mask. DemonFoxsCloak (talk) 12:34, October 3, 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, what "Senju + Uchiha = Rikudō" ok cool i get that no problem, but, "Nagato = Rikudō. Ergo Nagato = Senju + Uchiha" thats like, "Trees move when the wind blows, ergo, trees make wind." theresno evidence in the series tht suggests that nagato is an Uchiha/Senju Descendant, in fact there is strong evidence to suggest he would never have had the rinnegan without Madara giving it to him. 86.135.13.51 (talk) 07:01, October 11, 2010 (UTC)

There is actually evidence in the series that Nagato is a Senju descendant.... being it that Uzumaki clan is descended from Senju... 1david12 . (talk 21:57, October 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * I never said Nagato was of Uchiha and/or Senju descent. I said he had the powers of both these clans, because he had the powers of the Rikudō. Also you comparison of my logical conclusion to yours is wrong. Yours is based on assuming correlation is causation, while mine is based on the truth that the whole is made up of the sum of its parts. A better comparison would be between my statement and the statement that an object is made of bronze. Bronze is made up of tin and copper. Ergo the object is made up of tin and copper. —ShounenSuki (talk 22:18, October 19, 2010 (UTC)

Mangekyo NIne-Tails Controll
As stated by the tablet and confirmed by Itachi, the power to controll the nine-tails is derived from the Mangekyou. Therefore i believe that his abillity to controll it should be written under the Mangekyo section not the regular sharingan section, even though he did show his regular sharingan when doing it. Also seeing how i orignally have moved it twice before with no complaints, i consider that it is generally acknowledged way of sorting it in this community. --Gojita (talk) 21:52, September 23, 2010 (UTC)Gojita

actually, a regular sharingan can control the nine tails, as portrayed when Sasuke supressed the Nine Tailed Demon Fox using his sharingan only... and the nine tails said "those eyes are the same as madara's and that ominous chakra" and sasuke said "heck if I know that man" and sasuke had his sharingan alone1david12 . (talk 23:13, October 12, 2010 (UTC)

Water Release
Isn't it stated that Hashirama could use Water Release? Isn't it also stated that Water Release was needed to be combined with Earth Release to obtain Wood Release? And again, isn't it stated that Madara Uchiha was capable of using Earth Release? So it's easily percieved that Madara copied water release techniques from Hashirama and obviously could have trained 80 years and now mastered wood release. To even a greater extent than Hashirama could. And further proven that my speculation is true, he even used Izanagi. 1david12 . (talk) 17:54, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Until we see Madata using Wood Release or claiming to have acquired Wood Release, he's not listed as having Wood. Saying he got "Hashirama's power", while likely to be referring to Wood Release, is still vague. And you cant just simply copy elemental techniques, you need to both be able to change your chakra into a specific nature, and have enough chakra to perform the technique. Sasuke saw Danzo using his vacuum techniques, but that doesn't mean Sasuke can use those or any other Wind Release technique. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:11, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

i can guarantee 100% that he doesn't have wood release because as those of us who hae actually read the manga know, one cannot copy kekkai genkai with the sharingan. 86.182.85.193 (talk) 02:45, September 26, 2010 (UTC)

you guys aren't getting my point.... Kakashi can use only two elements before his Sharingan implant... Yes, two, Lightning and Earth... It was in Kakashi Gaiden... Anyways as we all know a Sharingan can see the colour of chakra and can copy any and evrything seen perfectly, or something like that, as stated by Kakashi, which explains why the sharingan can copy jutsus.... Kakashi is about 30 Kakashi exposing his sharingan in battle to use the other elemental jutsus he copied... And even Sasuke, a true Uchiha, used the sharingan for copying jutsus (although not an elemental jutsu). 1david12 . (talk) 10:45, September 26, 2010 (UTC)

@1david12, Kakashi never used Earth Release in Kakashi Gaiden, what makes you think he could already use it? Even if he can see how the jutsu is done, he must still learn to change is chakra to that nature, and he must be able to match the chakra requirement for that. Kakashi has seen Naruto performing Rasenshuriken, and even if he did two extra clones to help him, he wouldn't be able to perform it because he doesn't know Wind Release techniques. If he saw the Raikage's Lightning Release Armor, he wouldn't be able to use it either, because even though he has Lightning Release, Kakashi is far from having the same chakra output capacity as the Raikage. @person above 1david12, who's to say that Madara couldn't have acquired Hashirama's power without the Sharingan? When he said he acquired his abilities, he didn't say how. For all we know, he got have gotten some blood and made an experiment similar to what Orochimaru made to Danzō. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:53, September 26, 2010 (UTC)

It's not impossible for Madara Uchiha to train for Wood Release, he battled Hashirama Senju 80 years ago and he already had Earth Release then, so who's to say he didn't work on his Wood Release skills over the past 80 years? 72.27.62.214 (talk) 16:47, October 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * No amount of training will give one a genetic ability one does not already have. ~SnapperTo 17:03, October 9, 2010 (UTC)

Rinnegan in Kekkai Genkai
Do you think we should have the Rinnegan in the Kekkai Genkai parameter? --KiumaruHamachi (talk) 19:08, September 25, 2010 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi
 * Read five sections above. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:26, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

Speaking of kekkei Genkai why isnt his EM Sharingan Mentioned in the kekkei Genkai info box? rigoberto60 - Talk 19:26, September 26, 2010 (UTC)

Because we don't list it, it's just an exchange of MS eyes. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 11:49, September 27, 2010 (UTC)

Unknown Killing Genjutsu?
After the fight with Konan, he placed her under genjutsu Naruto 510 pannel 16, and said "When my illusion ends, so will your life"

Re007wazhere RE07 Oct 2, 2010
 * yeah he kinda stabbed her in her chestΙ--Cerez365 (talk) 00:59, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

He was using Izanagi.Umishiru (talk) 16:42, October 14, 2010 (UTC)

Ring
It was said that he used Sasori's ring... How could he removed it?? --The ultimate fan of NARUTO welimer2 23:38, October 3, 2010 (UTC)--


 * With his hands? ~SnapperTo 00:38, October 4, 2010 (UTC)

Snapper, you just made my day. DemonFoxsCloak (talk) 00:22, October 5, 2010 (UTC)

Changing Eyes
After transplanting or changing eye jutsus, does he still keep the previous powers? For example, with a MS activated, does he still have the Sharingan's reaction time? And if he did transplant the Rinnegan, would he still be able to use his MS powers? DemonFoxsCloak (talk) 13:20, October 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Mangekyo is just an advanced form of sharingan, and ditto eternal mangekyo, so no powers are lost translated up to them. Rinnegan on the other hand... that's a separate dojutsu which probably doesn't have have all the powers of the previous ones, so that remains to be seen. ZeroSD (talk) 14:36, October 10, 2010 (UTC)

Rinnengan
Maadaras left eye is rinengan http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/40727763/18 looks like most of the theories of this were really accurate. Newest chapetr 514 --Rigoberto60 (talk) 16:28, October 21, 2010 (UTC)

amin :D Kishimoto made Madara WaY to powerfull :(--Petar93 (talk) 16:44, October 21, 2010 (UTC)

to be villain he has to be strong --Rigoberto60 (talk) 17:14, October 21, 2010 (UTC)

I think it would be worth putting a picture of his Sharingan/Rinnegan combination somewhere in the Confining the Jinchūriki arc. Abells92 (talk) 19:54, October 21, 2010 (UTC)

why
why does madara have all the nature manipulations now? its true that it has been said that who ever wields the rinnengan, wields all the natures, But shouldnt we wait and see. --Rigoberto60 (talk) 21:55, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * We never saw the Sage of the Six Paths using any jutsu, yet he has all natures. Having the Rinnegan means he can use those natures, whether he actually does it or not. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:03, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Although I can see where you are coming from, I have to ask for caution here. Although it was said that the Rinnegan gives all nature manipulations — and it is very likely Madara now has them all — the fact that Madara has it transplanted might actually change the situation. —ShounenSuki (talk 22:48, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe a presumed annotation similar to Tsunade's would be appropriate? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:53, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sounds like a perfect solution for now. —ShounenSuki (talk 22:55, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Would it apply to Fire Release as well? He already had it as anime only. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:58, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I would say that would be Anime Only. Should we put fire release and earth release as Anime Only? KiumaruHamachi (talk) 23:00, October 21, 2010 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi
 * He used Earth Release in the manga as well, just like Yin-Yang (and by extension Yin and Yang separately) —ShounenSuki (talk 23:01, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Right. I had forgetten that. Thanks SS. KiumaruHamachi (talk) 23:04, October 21, 2010 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi
 * No problem. Also, I don't mind you abbreviating my name, but please don't use SS. —ShounenSuki (talk 23:08, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I had no idea "SS" was used that way. I'm sorry Shōnen. KiumaruHamachi (talk) 23:15, October 21, 2010 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi
 * You don't need to be sorry. You had no intention of hurting anyone and WWII ended 65 years ago. It's not that I was personally offended, but I simply don't like others associating me with Nazism. —ShounenSuki (talk 23:45, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay. I just had no idea Those two letters were part of WW2. KiumaruHamachi (talk) 23:52, October 21, 2010 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi

Uchiha?
Why is uchiha clan still listed as his loyalty. I understand that he is an uchiha but doesn't he hate the uchiha clan for betraying him and why inst akatsuki listed as one of his loyalties? it is his organization.
 * We covers the entire series, not just the current events. Since he was loyal to the uchiha once, it goes into the infobox. And Akatsuki is listed under "Affiliation". Jacce | Talk | Contributions 14:02, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

Tobi's Mokuton?
Tobi obtained Hashirama's power (With this is the "2nd Rikudou") so He could use the wood release like Danzou.
 * When he has been seen using it, it will be added. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 05:55, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

So whenever I try to edit
I think it's really obvious now, I mean REALLY obvious that Madara is the main villain. The latest chapter has me suspecting the series will end after the war. I occasionally try to make the obvious edit, listing Madara as the main villain. But whenever I do, someone instantly undoes my edit. So does this wiki really believe that Madara isn't the main villain? Or that there isn't enough evidence to list him as such? The man has almost orchestrated everything and laid the foundation for the entire story, he pulls everyone by strings like puppets. He's a troll almost to Aizen's level, and fucks with people's minds beyond belief. He has the Sharingan, Mangekyo Sharingan, AND the Rinnegan. He's undoubtably the most powerful character in the series.

So why can't we list him as the main villain already? It certainly isn't Kabuto, or Zetsu [lol] And it's definitely not Sasuke.


 * Because he does nothing villainous during the first 300 chapters, and it's likely the idea of him didn't even cross Kishimoto's mind for the first 200 chapters. Ignoring that, Orochimaru operates outside the realms of the giant retcon that is Madara, and he could pass for "the main villain" for the those 300 chapters Madara does nothing. So what happens when there are two "the"s? They become "a"s. ~SnapperTo 07:21, November 3, 2010 (UTC)


 * Not to mention that Sasuke could still turn out to be the true main villain. —ShounenSuki (talk 13:11, November 3, 2010 (UTC)

Darth Vader did more in the Star Wars trilogy but Palpatine was still the main villain, and wasn't seen until the very last movie, and very little of him was actually seen. Adding onto that, Orochimaru's title as the main villain was forfeit when Kishimoto decided to throw him away like garbage and let Kabuto take his place. And the likeliness of Sasuke being the main villain is bogus. For that to happen Madara would have to be out of the picture, and in the process the Moon's Eye Plan would be stopped. By taking this into account, if Madara is defeated than the ninja world essentially wins. Sasuke also doesn't have the arsenal of abilities to be the main villain. Kishimoto is following a common manga-cliche, and that is to beef up a main villain by making him possess godly powers. Madara could easily overpower Sasuke now, even with the newly obtained EMS that Sasuke obtained by transplanting Itachi's eyes. This is all speculation right now, but the most likely scenario is Naruto and Sasuke fighting Madara together after another shit load of chapters. I mean we see how Kishimoto writes, usually predictions never come true. But just as well, by using simple logic it's obvious Sasuke can't be the main villain because he doesn't have the power to do so. As well as the fact that Madara being defeated after all he's done, and Sasuke just randomly becoming the main villain for no reason is terrible writing, and isn't exactly expected of Kishimoto. I'm not saying I know what's going to happen, but I think it's pretty obvious that Madara is the main villain. He has the power to be the main villain, a motive a main villain should possess, and not to mention his death would equal the end of the war and all the threats the Akatsuki posed on the world. If you have anything that can contradict my points, I'd be happy to read them. Not for argument purposes, but I'm interested to see what you guys can come up with.

I wonder whatever happened to simply reading/watching a story and being pulled along by the story's interesting points and instead trying to act like a crystal ball and cut ahead of the author speculating on what they're going to write before they even write it. I might as well point out that we never listed the Fourth Hokage as Naruto's father until the story basically outright said it eliminating any sane speculation on the topic (well, ignoring the kind of speculation based on whacked out logic the class of people who still believe Tobi is Obito are using, heh...). ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Nov 5, 2010 @ 07:56 (UTC) 07:56, November 5, 2010 (UTC)

I definitely have to give you props on that point. And the fucked up thing is they're still persisting to claim that Tobi/Madara could still be Obito, despite him having two eyes and no facial similarities. I guess they can't accept their age-old theory isn't going to happen, but I digress. I guess we'll have to wait until the series is over to really claim Madara is the main villain.
 * Well, not completely over... It's possible that through some interview in the future Kishimoto might state he's ending the series and drop a hint or two, it'll probably end up on ann as well, at that point may be a one-sided enough debate. ^_^ if I remember correctly, I remember seeing someone's concocted theory on Obito traveled back in time and is Madara. Well... if it wasn't that it was another equally strange theory. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Nov 5, 2010 @ 21:33 (UTC) 21:33, November 5, 2010 (UTC)

Six Paths of Pain
Why don't we add the six paths of pain's techs to his jutsubox, since he has the Rinnegan?


 * Because until he shows up in combat with Six separate bodies, then he doesn't have the Six Paths of Pain. Having their abilities is not the same as having them.--TheUltimate3 ~The User King ~ 16:53, November 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * That's what I said!!! (LOL) We should write down their abilities in his jutsu box. Not that he has the six paths. Maybe I should have rephrased in a more understandeable way... It's obvios that he can use them (i.e the abilities) as seen in Chapter 515 pg 11 (http://www.narutoverse.org/Naruto/515/11/). --MadaraCami (talk) 17:01, November 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Ah, I misread that. I thought it said "Six Paths of Pain" and didn't see the "techs" part. Personally I don't see why not.--TheUltimate3 ~The User King ~ 17:54, November 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * We don't list jutsu until there's some direct indication that the character is able to use it. Just having the prerequisites isn't enough. ~SnapperTo 18:17, November 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * And that was the rule I forgot. I am really out of things today.--TheUltimate3 ~The User King ~ 19:39, November 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Did we list things just with direct indication? iirc one of the older rules was we never listed it unless they "actually" used it in the story, there were plenty of "able to" jutsu we left out, especially since it would have made lists insanely long for some characters. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Nov 5, 2010 @ 07:58 (UTC) 07:58, November 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * We try to avoid cases of "able to", but in 515 Madara decides not to use a jutsu because it would kill Yamato. We should make an exception for his good heart. ~SnapperTo 17:41, November 5, 2010 (UTC)