Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-26958911-20151010214426/@comment-26636534-20160125154521

@Kratos12345 You are completely right

@LoneNinja

1.1) It is a assumption, either way you look at it. The thing about Jiraiya is that he has the reserves to summon the toad sages and the other toads(because he is able to summon more than three toads). This is what you would call a reasonable assumption. You seem to keep forgetting that during Jiraiya vs Pein, Jiraiya needed to bide time with Gamaken, not to go all out immediately. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to summon more toads. Itachi on the other hand has not been shown to be able to use genjutsu on multiple targets and I think I know why. Sharingan genjutsu is cast through vision(eye contact basically), since it is impossible to acquire eye contact of multiple individuals at the same time, genjutsu of this form stands to reason can only be applied one at a time.

1.2) You also forgot the sage techniques that Jiraiya used. Remember shadow clones halve your chakra, so when Jiraiya made a shadow clone he was in the process of summoning the sage toads with only half of his chakra. Furthermore, Jiraiya's shadow clone was simultaneously in the process of summoning the sage toads, before it dispersed. This itself indicates that he still had enough chakra to summon more toads. Part 1 Naruto still suffered from poor chakra control at that point, plus he had been training a lot before he finally summoned Gamabunta, meaning he was quite exhausted and had to rely on Kurama's chakra. Naruto was only stated in part 2 to have 4x more chakra than Kakashi, not part 1.

2) You asked of any toad Jiraiya could summon during pein's assult and I said Gama. Now you take that answer for Itachi, on topic much?. In any case Gama would be quite useful against Itachi, for his close combat skills and blocking ability, he could potentially deal with Itachi's clones, shurikenjutsu and even against Itachi in taijutsu.

3) While that statement is on this wiki, it must be an exaggeration, the Sensor Division was comprised of many sensor shinobi that were linked to HQ headed by Inochi and Ao on the sensory sphere. It was able to sense the happenings of events in other countries. It is quite ridiculuos to think that Itachi was able to cast genjutsu and control someone further than countries away. How did he even make eye contact or point his finger at them? This needs some looking into. In any case, if we are dealing with cop outs, which I don't really want to but you do, Jiraiya can simply use his reverse summoning toad stomach technique to quickly digest Itachi. So Jiraiya doesn't need SM to win after all.

4) I find it funny that you are trying to redirect the assumption making game at me, but you have made far more assumptions than I have. What's even worse is that you stated that you don't make assumptions then go on to make more of them. Since you read up on what a contradiction is, you should now be able to see what contradictions you have been making. Sage techniques have worked on Itachi before, Tayuya's genjutsu was enhanced by Kabuto's SM and Kabuto landed a chakra scalpel on Itachi, cutting him in half.

5) Finally, something we agree on.

6) I will, but if you look at Jiraiya's apparel, you'd see he always carries around a scroll. That scroll is similar to the one Naruto used to summon shadow clones with. Also, Jiraiya was carrying around fire sealing scrolls at the time he encountered Itachi and Kisame, so there is a precedent.

7) I can prove it, anyone who has watched the anime or read the manga would know that Jiraiya encountered Amaterasu and sealed it for study, knew that he'd need Tsunade to heal the mental damage done by Tsukuyomi (meaning he knew of it's effects) and several characters, Kakashi included, have stated that Jiraiya is the lead gatherer of intelligence on the Akatsuki. Also Itachi's information is in Konoha's bingo book which is referenced by Shikamaru, and is distributed to Anbu, jonin and other high ranking shinobi such as Jiraiya.

8) Toads are known for there ability to cover large distances in a single leap, now this jumping ability can be used for speed, to jump in and out of combat. As referenced by Gamaken, when he jumped out of combat with pein's summonings and even out of the focus of pein's rinnegan. So there is a reference to toads being able to evade the focus of dojutsu. To dodge or block Amaterasu, you do not need to be faster than A, another example of a made up fact. Gaara was able to block Amaterasu with his sand and Bee was able to use a substitution to avoid Amaterasu. Itachi's Amaterasu is not instant, as referenced during his fight with Sasuke and Naruto, he had to sort of charge it up by closing his eye and then blood came out of his eye before it manifested.

It is prudent that we stick to reasonable assumptions and stay away from absurd ones. Also making up facts is frowned upon, cop outs too. Remember that facts > assumptions, not the other way around. I know I have been quite harsh to you, but someone has to draw the line and call you out on some of the stuff you have been saying. I now invite you to take some time and reflect on your posts and when you are ready, I would like to read your apology. Then we can move on.