Talk:Earth Release

Chakra changes
What happens to chakra in Earth Release? Is it ever exactly explained how it manipulates Earth? Fire, Wind, and Lightning seemed to be thoroughly explained.--GoDai (talk) 00:36, April 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * By sending chakra into earth, or by changing chakra into mud and spitting it out.--Deva 27 (talk) 00:43, April 3, 2010 (UTC)

How is it different in nature to normal chakra? And what is the difference between that and the Iwagakure Kinjutsu?--GoDai (talk) 00:52, April 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think GoDai means the method used to learn it. Like the grinding and sharpening of wind chakra. The only thing known on earth chakra itself is that it changes the composition of things. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:11, April 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Aside from Earth Release: Earth Spear, where does it say that in the manga? --Thomas Finlayson (talk) 10:23, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

Effect of lightening release
I admit that this may be too much speculation, or too much interest in Naruto, but I would like to find out how exactly lightning jutsu effects earth jutsu; water-fire is easy to understand, and we can grasp wind-fire, but lightning is still an unknown. I contacted a science teacher about lightning in regards to rocks and dirt (the founation of earth jutsu) since he was an Earth Science expert, and I got (edited down): Lightning can travel through rock short distances. When lightning hits dirt and sand it will fuse the sand grains together to make fulgurite. The ground contains so many electrons, that energy is transferred very quickly into the rock when it is struck and little change in the rock itself occurs since rock is a poor conductor, especially when dry so if it travels any distance in rock it will heat it up. Google fulgurite
 * Any idea how we can use this? --Thomas Finlayson (talk) 10:21, May 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * We already know about fulgurites, it was used in someone's theory on Crystal. Earth jutsu commonly utilizes the ground as a resource, true. However, many think Lightning should be weak to Earth because it grounds it. The important thing they forget is that Lightning jutsu maintains control over the electricity, so it cannot be grounded unless the Lightning user releases control. The grounding effect rather gives an advantage to the Lightning user, as he can now easily cannel focused Lightning chakra through the Earth, either hardening mud or shattering rock. --GoDai (talk) 18:40, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think I get what you are saying. A lightning jutsu user prevents the electricity from dissipating which allows it to continue. Plus, further information from that teacher supports your idea. The dirt/mud would be hardened/petrified, and as for the rock usually nothing happens outside of heating it up…but that is because the energy is transferred too quickly; lightning jutsu has proven to be slower so it has more time to heat up the rock and perhaps destroy it (expansion perhaps)?
 * Can I transfer your statement to the talk: Lightning Release page? --Thomas Finlayson (talk) 3:40, May 16, 2010 (UTC)

Breathing
Should we not mention how these people dig/burrow/meld/submerge into the ground and never suffocate despite the method they are using (look at them all!) no matter how long they are under? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 00:11, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * They could be holding their breath, we have no idea if they can breath underground.--Deva 27 (talk) 00:13, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Kisame with Earth Release: Subterranean Voyage? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 00:17, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * There isn't any evidence of him breathing when he used it.--Deva 27 (talk) 00:20, June 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * And Tobi and Driedara when they used Earth Release: Hiding Like a Mole Technique? Akatsuchi (talk) 01:32, November 11, 2010 (UTC)

Paper resemblance
[here] we have the whole paper represent your elemental jutsu thing. Fire, water, and wind (the cutting part of it) are fairly clear for interpretation on what they can do, but what about the other two? What can be inferred from the crumbling paper it is to represent earth jutsu since we have not seen anything like that yet?
 * And yes I know that I may be overthinking this, but I feel earth jutsu is not used enough to get a good interpretation. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 01:50, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

I remember that the databook said that earth natured chakra could alter the composition of things, making them soft as clay or hard as metal, like it's mentioned in the article. I supposed the earth chakra changes the paper into something very weak or delicate, so it just falls apart. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:54, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm...thank you, I thought that was just from the anime. The paper idea would make sense also, like the digging where you have to break up the earth to travel through it. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 01:59, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Which databook was that? I think it should be cited to be clear, and we could probably add this info in as well. Akatsuchi (talk) 01:39, November 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * Obviously the third one, since nature transformation was something explained in part 2, and the third databook is currently the only one with part 2 info. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:25, November 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * And the paper info? Akatsuchi (talk) 20:13, November 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * From an actual chapter, don't remember which. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:04, November 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Chapter 315, page 14-16. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 21:17, November 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks Jacce, though I am sorry, but I was too vague. what I meant was the discussion above about what the paper probably symbolized. Akatsuchi (talk) 06:25, November 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * No reference for that, what I said above was my own interpretation. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:16, November 13, 2010 (UTC)

Flexibility
I just put down how I find earth jutsu one of the most flexible jutsu, here is why: Thomas Finlayson (talk) 04:28, July 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) ) Fire release: offensive, and defensive if you are really smart.
 * 2) ) Lightning release: mostly offensive with only Lightning Release Armor and Chidori Current being defense and even then they have offensive properties
 * 3) ) Wind release: offensive, with one transportation, Wind Release Stream
 * 4) ) Water release: all offensive with just one defensive
 * 5) ) Earth release: several transportation jutsu, several offensive, and several defense, and some offensive/deffensive.

Can make the dirt vanish. or make more
With Earth Release: Moving Earth Core, Earth Release: Tunneling Technique, and Ittan's ability to make trenches, should we not say that the user can make the dirt essentially disappear, and, with Earth Release: Earth Flow Rampart, create it? They have something similliar on Leafninja but I never had enough evidence before to bring it forward. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 19:18, November 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * You're ignoring the possibilities of condensing earth and creating hollow spaces. —ShounenSuki (talk 19:30, November 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * I see where you are going, but I have always been under the assumption that there was not that much air underground. Enough for tunnelling animals (who leave a hole behind) them, but not that much. That is why they do core aeration even. Right? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 03:45, November 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Who says air is involved? —ShounenSuki (talk 12:59, November 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * My apologies. I thought that when you were referring to the Earth not already being compacted was the result of air in the ground? How do you mean compaction then? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 18:02, November 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Even without (a lot of) air around, earth can be condensed. Especially when you take chakra into account, which can easily change the consistent of the earth from loose sand to extremely dense rock. —ShounenSuki (talk 18:41, November 27, 2010 (UTC)

So you are saying they are not creating new dirt, but expanding and compacting the pre-existing stuff? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:42, November 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, I'm saying they're not necessarily creating and removing dirt. I'm certainly not against the idea of them being able to create earth, but as far as I can recall, it has never been shown or said they can make it disappear as well. —ShounenSuki (talk 14:56, November 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Wait, what about Earth Release: Earth Flow Rampart where it says 'This technique makes a gigantic rampart rise up beneath the user's feet, by shaping the ground and increasing the amount of earth with chakra?' Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:32, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

I don't want to become majorly involved in discussion, but I think: Therefore, when an element is "created," it is the chakra being changed into the substance. However, it is likely that substance cannot be converted into chakra (at least by normal means). I think because Kishi has stated clearly he isn't so good at physics, he may have not been thinking so much about this. If I had to make a decision, I would go with compression/compaction or some sort of "minor" tectonic plate movement to make room underneath to lower the surface. --GoDai (talk) 04:16, November 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Nature Transformations are about changing chakra into elements. Therefore, chakra is being changed into Earth in Earth Release, and chakra is being changed into some form of Water in Water Release, etc. For example, the Blocking Technique Absorption Seal could absorb Jiraiya's Fire Release: Big Flame Bullet, showing that this Fire is simply chakra taking on the form of Fire.
 * However, chakra can be conserved if a significant amount of the corresponding element is already available, and is used instead. While Water Release and Earth Release in particular are seen doing this often, Kirin is also an example for Lightning, and Danzō's Vacuum-based Wind techniques may be of this sort. This is also seen in Advanced Natures, such as water being turned into Ice. I'm guessing the Blocking Technique Absorption Seal will only remove the chakra from the element being manipulated, and "free" it from control. The element may seem to decrease in amount as the Elemental chakra is removed.
 * You have a good point, it is similar to how water and fire are made, especially with Earth Release: Earth Flow Rampart. The dirt can be made by chakra for sure, but the rest is trickier. Do not forget that the Pain also absorbed flaming oil though, so it seems any jutsu can be reconverted back into chakra by him. But yes, there is some details on the latter part missing. Could the dirt be created by chakra and then compacted? I think changing the earth with tectonic plates would be too massive, but if we combine the other two it may work. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 04:33, November 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm wondering if you even read my messages properly. You keep coming back to creating the earth, even though I already said I believed that was possible (in fact, it's all but stated that Earth Release can do this). All I said that it wasn't always necessarily the case and that there is no evidence that Earth can be made to disappear. —ShounenSuki (talk 08:36, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

How about this Thomas, in your next comment prove beyond a doubt using facts (facts are not what you' believe to be true) that earth release can make dirt disappear. Otherwise I think you are just taking everyone in circles, trying to annoy them. S im A nt 19:19, November 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ouch, I am the villain...again. Moreover, what enjoyment could I get out of trying to annoy people I cannot even see? Oh well. The repetition was made to make sure it remained since in the past I have noted people do not always look at older comments. As for Simant, do I have a written quote of dirt disappearing, No? Before you roll your eyes though, finish this. Ittan can make trenches and huge pits with the dirt disappearing, and we also have Earth Release: Tunneling Technique working the same way. To all appearances, it is "gone," "disappeared." How, is what I am trying to look at. Do you have anything to add to that? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 21:20, November 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * By moving and compacting the earth? There, an explanation without the need for vanishing earth. —ShounenSuki (talk 22:02, November 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * I guess that proves you are trying to annoy us. S im A nt  22:49, November 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * That is actually starting to get amusing (no irony or sarcassam intended). As for the moving, it appears SouenSuki you did not read all of my edits. I quoted a jutsu page, one it appears you origonally translated even, that said that 'moving' the ground like that can be done by making earth. As for the compacting, I agreed to that. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 04:27, December 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * I read everything you wrote and you have yet to give a decent reason for the need of vanishing earth. Nobody is disagreeing with you on the ability to create more earth or move it around. It's the possibility of making the earth disappear that has no solid basis. —ShounenSuki (talk 10:17, December 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Then why not just put on the main page that the users can change the terrain by creating huge amounts of Earth with their chakra, and also make it disappear by means as of yet unknown? Akatsuchi (talk) 17:08, December 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Because moving/compacting ≠ disappearing. —ShounenSuki (talk 17:45, December 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think he means that we agree that something happens so that it looks like there is less dirt, but we do not know if it is compacted, moved, turned into chakra, or taken away by little invisible fairies. Just that we know earth can be made by chakra, but we do not know about its opposite (when does the next databook come out?) Thomas Finlayson (talk) 00:40, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * The next databook will most likely be published in the summer of 2011. Also, I know what the previous editor meant. I just disagreed with the words he chose, as they imply things we aren't certain of. —ShounenSuki (talk 00:46, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, then how do we word it? Disappearing, vanishing, compressing, etc. are out. How about lowers the ground the user is standing on by unknown means? Oh, and thanks for the date, though that is still a bother; the series may possibly even be done by then. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 01:30, December 7, 2010 (UTC)