Talk:Black Receiver

Kabuto
Should we label the pebbles that Kabuto uses to control the impure world resurrection as chakra receivers? It seems to me that they are
 * They're mentioned in the technique page, and probably in Kabuto's ability section. That should be enough until more focus and information is given on those pebbles. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:34, December 27, 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm..
"Nagato also seemingly went to some lengths to retrieve them"

Wasn't this because if one was to find a way to trace the chakra, (say as how Naruto did by stabbing himself with it), they would of been able to find him? I mean they didn't have to do it like Naruto did, but they would of found a way eventually. Just like everything else they come across, they find a way. So maybe something like "Incase they track it back to him" or something of the sort? SusanooUnleashed (talk) 13:14, December 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * That's just there to distinguish between it and the Chakra Disruption Blades. There could be other reasons why he went back for the receiver apart from fearing that they'd trace him.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 13:36, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Naruto
Why don't you list him as an user? He used them to locate Pain. --109.93.79.37 (talk) 00:26, January 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * I think he used them more a s a tool to find pain than actually wielding them. ROBO731   (Talk)  Mangekyō_Sharingan_Itachi.svg  00:30, January 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * All Naruto did was stab himself with it so he'd have an easier time sensing Nagato's chakra, which went straight into the chakra receiver. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:32, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

Moving around.
Should something be added how the receiver moves on the Jinchuriki once they go through a transformation and get bigger? SusanooUnleashed (talk) 11:49, January 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * I s'pose.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 12:39, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

Control
Shouldn't it be said that these can be used to control others?Undominanthybrid (talk) 14:10, May 16, 2012 (UTC) "...Doing so allowed him to transmit his chakra into the bodies and control them remotely as if they were his own body." ?--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 14:33, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

I meant living, breathing or ressurected people, not dead bodies.Undominanthybrid (talk) 15:02, May 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'd assume you're referring to Naruto during the invasion? That's being counted as Chakra Disruption Blades, though from the dialogue in the chapter this may need to be re-evaluated. Otherwise, those Edo Tensei's were as good as corpses.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:18, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

chapter 598, a new variant
Isn't it? maybe worthy a picture and a mention--Elveonora (talk) 14:53, August 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Definitely a variation. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:41, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

As for the new variants, I'm confused on how Tobi created them like that. I understand if he used his S/T jutsu to bring them to him, but it doesn't look like something the Statue would create. 173.63.93.233 (talk) 23:56, August 23, 2012 (UTC) Bobbob

Maybe he is a blacksmith--Elveonora (talk) 00:01, August 24, 2012 (UTC)

I'm wondering about that...they look more like a giant version of Nagato's disruption blades, or a new weapon altogether that's related to the blades and receivers...remember those things aren't for offensive use, but to transmit Nagato/Tobi's chakra and control the Six Paths, while the blades were to paralyze and disrupt a foe's chakra flow...this however was stated as a weapon that seals tailed beast powers, so i'm not quite sure. Darksusanoo (talk) 00:58, August 24, 2012 (UTC)

either way, tobi couldv'e simply altered their shape (before or after they were made). they seemed like chakra recievers that were just shaped diferently besides wev'e never seen them being created. still they are almost certainly chakra recievers, as they made those outer path chains and were being used to suppress tailed beasts' power.98.26.246.122 (talk) 01:17, August 24, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan

um creation of all things?206.74.210.130 (talk) 02:58, August 24, 2012 (UTC)

Creation of All Things so far has only been said to be used by the Sage of the Six Paths. 173.63.93.233 (talk) 17:31, August 24, 2012 (UTC) Bobbob

From how i see it this shouldn't chalked up with the chakra receivers, given how their functions are very different...one is used to control the Six Paths of Pain, the other ones are used to restrain Tailed Beasts, plus the differences in shape and size...if a different article was made for the blade variant which is basically an elongated version of the receivers than these should get the same treatment. Darksusanoo (talk) 17:16, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

Split. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:53, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

origins
Kinda confused now, do they come from the statue/Hashirama's clone/Madara ??? They also sprouted from Obito, wonder why it isn't mentioned.--Elveonora (talk) 16:28, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * The rods are from the Outer Path. Madara could have simply let the statue send the receiver down there or something. As for the bit with Obito, it's being held off on precisely for that reason.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 16:47, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * The rods are made utilizing yin-yang release. One needs either the rinnegan or both senju and uchiha dna to make them. Proof of this is when obito first made them when he first activated his mangekyo sharingan. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 04:47, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * No proof Obito made them. They don't look like something one happens to make. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 12:59, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Small topic revival, this has been answered on narutoanswerswiki:

"Nagato generated these Chakra Disruption Blades using his Outer Path ability. As a result, his Six Paths of Pain, which were also generated using the Outer Path ability, could produce them apparently limitlessly from their bodies. The Gedou Mazou, the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path, also has a collection of Chakra Tranmittors, aka Black Rods, connected to it. However, these were created by Madara before his death and contain his will, allowing the user to not only control the Statue, but to use the Six Paths Technique as well. Nagato summoned the Gedo Mazo and synchronized with Madara's chakra tranmittors and the Gedou Mazou during his fight with Hanzo, after the battle he would use the transmittors in his Outer Path: Six Paths of Pain jutsu to transmit chakra to other Chakra Receivers which doubled as body piercings on the six corpses, and these receivers were generated by the Outer Path ability as well."

There appears to be some confusion if they originate from the Jubi or Madara and later Obito made them using Outer Path.--Elveonora (talk) 12:09, May 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * Too much confusion right now, i believe this black metal (Chakra Receivers) we see going out from Obito's body has nothing to do with the black roots, this is not created by Madara's will at all, and i believe it is only a YYR technique, this has nothing to do with WR, Nagato didn't had WR. Again, everyone is very confused here .Dan.Faulkner (talk) 01:14, July 4, 2013 (UTC)

Red reflection
So, I see that the red reflection trivia point was removed. I do recall that, having added it myself, but I'm too lazy to look it up again. I'm certain it happened during Naruto vs Pain, possibly around the time Hinata intervened. If anyone wants to check. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:25, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

Name
It was named in Naruto Shippūden: Shinobi Rumble, Kokushin (Black Needle). Should we mention about it or name it like that ?--Salamancc (talk) 23:28, July 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Already is mentioned, check "In Other Media" section. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:23, July 23, 2013 (UTC)

I think, we should rename this page Black Needle, it was named in the games.--Salamancc (talk) 00:41, August 29, 2013 (UTC)

Separate by Users
Seeing as how it's difficult to say what the differences are between the receivers and the blades (assuming there even are any) and it is also tough to call where the technique creating these black rods ends and the usage of them as tools begins, might it be better to divide the article into sections for each user and explain how they utilised the black material, rather than by divide them by "type" (stakes, rods, etc.)?--BeyondRed (talk) 17:55, August 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * The main problem with this idea is that there would be tons of repetition in each user section. Joshbl  56  01:06, August 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * The main information we know would be under usage. The user sections would be for details and specific uses (Obito's stakes and chakra chains, for example).--BeyondRed (talk) 01:34, August 19, 2013 (UTC)

Blood
Aren't we going to include that it was stated by Kishimoto that these things were created by mixing Nagato's Chakra and his blood (which obviously contradicts with what we know now)? Seelentau 愛議 00:27, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Question...where did you found that bit of information? Darksusanoo (talk) 00:30, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * I never did, I just read it on another talk page, where it was stated that Kishimoto said so in one of the author comments at the beginning of each WSJ, but I don't have more information about that. If someone had access to all WSJ issues, he could look it up, since but I'm not able to do that. Seelentau 愛議 00:35, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hum...well maybe we should wait for someone to bring some link with that information or something...unless he can get details, this kind of hear-say can create a lot of confusion. Opinions? Darksusanoo (talk) 00:38, August 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * I recall reading and commenting on that too once, maybe even removing the trivia when the source wasn't available. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:40, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

I have a personal interest in solving this topic, but there's almost no way to confirm or deny this, unless someone actually owns the WSJ issue. But I don't even know when exactly this was said, so I can't search for the respective WSJ... can someone find the discussion where this was said? Seelentau 愛議 12:38, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, that didn't take long: Talk:Chakra Disruption Blades. Now where to find chapter 438 and the WSJ it was published in...? It's four years old, though^^' Seelentau 愛議 12:46, December 18, 2013 (UTC)

One would have thought that something as important had to have made its way into the manga or databooks, bad Kishi. Have you tried googling "chakra receivers blood" or something like that?--Elveonora (talk) 13:31, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, the first result was this talk page (or the other one) Seelentau 愛議 13:44, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think it may be false, I mean, what a nonsense... did you not see the poor old guy? He surely looked malnourished, spilling his own blood to make sticks doesn't sound exactly like something one would do with death on his tongue. But perhaps he did that for the means of diabetes diagnosis... after all, being connected to a plant must have given him overdose of sugars and even induce madness.--Elveonora (talk) 14:06, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * I created a thread over at mangahelpers, maybe someone will answer... Seelentau 愛議 15:05, December 18, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, what I gathered so far is that the related WSJ issue was published on 9th March 2009 +- one week. Furthermore, I found this spoiler which was labelled as pending, but we know better. This sentence is the important one:

ナルトの動きを止めていた黒棒は長門のチャクラを練りこんだ自らの血を材料に形を維持している

It says The black rods (黒棒, Kokubō) which stopped Naruto's movement are Nagato's Chakra..., the rest is kinda complicated to translate. However, would that suffice as proof? I'm searching for a page where I can get the whole issue next. Seelentau 愛議 10:34, December 19, 2013 (UTC)

You mean if it's pending status suffice as proof? Dunno, we could always use a warning template. But from what you have translated so far, I fail to see blood mentioned in there :- /--Elveonora (talk) 14:38, December 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * 血 is the Kanji for blood, but I translated only the part until チャクラ, everything after that comes later, when I can concentrate on it better. Eh, whatever. I actually talked to a raw-provider-group and they told me they'd ask their Japanese friends if they could get their hands on a copy of that issue. So maybe we'll have a scan of the raw page soon and I can double-check the above sentence. Seelentau 愛議 14:50, December 19, 2013 (UTC)

Well, if that proves to be correct, then Nagato must have had excessive amounts of iron in his blood. Why didn't he think of becoming a blacksmith is what I wonder tho. Joking aside, thank you for your efforts pal--Elveonora (talk) 15:06, December 19, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, so I got help from a fellow translator and a possible translation for that sentence is The black rods (黒棒, Kokubō) which stopped Naruto's movement are kneaded with Nagato's Chakra and held in form by the components of his own blood. Seelentau 愛議 12:13, December 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, if you find a good way to incorporate that to the article, go for it.--Elveonora (talk) 12:47, December 21, 2013 (UTC)

The stakes
B mentioned the stakes had curse marks. Was there already a discussion on this? And I don't remember this in the manga. --OmegaRasengan (talk) 16:56, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

I'd also like to know this??? and I don't think there's been a discussion on this yet.Munchvtec (talk) 16:58, January 9, 2014 (UTC)munchvtec

There has. Seelentau 愛議 17:21, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

Outer Path
Can I get a source for the Outer Path being the origin for this technique? Seelentau 愛議 18:23, January 11, 2014 (UTC)


 * Think it was an offshoot of the Will Materialization thing.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 19:00, January 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * It doesn't say origin, only that the whole will control thingy is done with Rinnegan's Outer Path.--Elveonora (talk) 19:06, January 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * It says "This ability, used by Rinnegan users through the Outer Path, creates multi-purpose black rods", meaning "the jutsu to create the rods is used through the outer path". But that was never said, if I remember correctly. Seelentau 愛議 19:32, January 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, that never was said, so it is an assumption/speculation. But Outer Path is still needed to use the rods, so it being a parent isn't wrong. There's lots of conflicting and vague information about the origins of the rods.--Elveonora (talk) 21:34, January 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * I wished they just stayed Pain's thing...--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 22:09, January 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * And I wish Kishi would realize that we aren't detectives paid to glue all the clues together to make any sense of it. Databook 4 nowhere, check, anime Soundtrack 3 nowhere, check. They are like: "shit will be ending soon, so we can afford to be lazy since once it's over, they gonna forget anyway while we be grabbin' the cash"--Elveonora (talk) 23:59, January 11, 2014 (UTC)

If my memory serves me correctly, I recall this ability was accredited to the Outer Path, due to it being in relation to the Gedo Mazo statue. (Even I, the creator of this page, has a vague recollection of the events leading to it.)--KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 00:32, January 12, 2014 (UTC)

I'm re-writing the article in the German wiki, trying to explain everything as good as possible. That's why I need to know when this was mentioned. When I finished the article, I can probably explain it to you guys, too. Seelentau 愛議 15:20, January 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, let's just hope the explanation isn't just opinionated :-/ The Outer Path is a leftover from those who were so fond of the notion of it being a Rinnegan thing.--Elveonora (talk) 16:24, January 12, 2014 (UTC)


 * Didn't Konan say Outer Path was Rinnegan.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:14, January 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, Outer Path seems to be the default/main/true Rinnegan power, but where is evidence for the rods to have come from a Rinnegan tech? They are used with Outer Path, doesn't necessarily mean they are made with it--Elveonora (talk) 18:12, January 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. Again I think that was again part of the overall Will Materialzation/Outer Path/Chakra Rods discussion. it was long and screwy and it had a ripple effect over what, three or four, articles.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 20:11, January 12, 2014 (UTC)

Shinju/Gedo Statue being the origin has always made the most sense to me, but that doesn't appear to be the case. Madara's rods at least are his will turned mass for sure, but is it true for Obito and Nagato as well? Nagato could apparently create them too from his body, with the whole "made of chakra and blood" thing, it's good for headaches.--Elveonora (talk) 20:20, January 12, 2014 (UTC)

mh, I haven't finished the article yet (gonna do that tomorrow at "work"), but let's talk about the origins:
 * The first time they could be seen timeline-wise was when Obito snapped. We know Madara somehow implanted them, but we don't know how exactly. What's important is that they appeared only where Hashi's cells were, not on Obito's own body.
 * The second time is when Madara was actually seen creating a black rod. He stated that it's his physical will and that they're somehow connected to the six paths technique. Again, they're created out of Hashi's cells.
 * The third time is when Obito summoned the statue. Here is the problem. We don't know why the rod could be created without Hashi's cells. I thought that it could've to do with Nagato being an Uzumaki-Senju, but that doesn't explain how the rod can come out somewhere else than Hashi's cells.
 * Personally, I don't think Nagato created the rods by himself. I think it was somehow Obito's doing and he was the one who provided Nagato with the rods for the corpses (see point 2). I will ignore the blood-issue, because that's as uncanon as it can be.
 * After all the Pain stuff ended, the rods come back with Madara. Again, he created rods from Obito's cell body-part. Since they're more than the last time, I conclude that they weren't "stored" there, but are actually created from Madara's will and Hashi's cells (or so). May it as it be, Hashi's cells play a big role in this whole issue.
 * The latest time the rods were created was when Obito attacked Kakashi (they came from his right hand, his Hashi-hand) and when Madara attacked Hashirama himself. Here is another problem: how could Madara create the rods out of his right hand when there are no Hashi cells? This could be because he had Hashi's cells implanted by Kabuto, but on a better level than Obito. You could say that while Obito is part Uchiha and part Senju, Madara is both Uchiha and Senju at the same time.

That said, the easiest way to resolve this would be Yin Yang Release. We have Madara's will (Yin) and Hashi's cells (Yang) and the rods are basically the embodiment of YYR. Seelentau 愛議 21:26, January 12, 2014 (UTC)


 * Wait wait wait wait. How are we assuming Hashirama cells lead to black rod creation?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 21:37, January 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Like I know he said the rod he created was made of his will, but when did he say "also this is hashirama cell made"?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 21:39, January 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * He didn't say that, but as you can see from the bolded parts, Hashi's cells where connected to almost every creation of the rods. In fact, the rods came only once out of something else than Hashi's cells. Seelentau 愛議 21:51, January 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * But couldn't it be equally justified that they came out not because of Hashirama's cells but Madara's will? I mean, he did make the Zetsu parts that is half of Tobi's body in the first place. Same way Pain could make rods, he wills them to be and they be.
 * This is starting to sound like a familiar discussion...are we getting sidetracked?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 22:10, January 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think that's a mistake on my side: I meant the rods came out of Hashirama's cell tissue and nowhere else (except for the statue's navel), that's why I strongly believe that Hashirama's cells are connected to the creation of the rods. But they did not come out "because" of Madara's will, but "as" Madara's will, just in physical form. But for his will to take form, he needs something physical: Hashirama's cells. Seelentau 愛議 22:15, January 12, 2014 (UTC)

Makes sense, I guess. I mentioned it before that Hash might have something to do with it. It could also explain why Gedo Statue had them in its novel, it was sitting on top of Hash Flower, it came from Hash Clone and pierced it perhaps, in order to allow Madara control it? ._. Also another Hash connection is Black Zetsu, which is in fact White Zetsu reject (Hash cells) coated in... will.--Elveonora (talk) 01:41, January 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Since Kishi had the statue appear before Madara created the rod, it could simply be a retcon. I don't want to denounce it as such, but I can't think of any other reason why the rod came out of the statue's navel. And yes, Black Zetsu is a will-coated White Zetsu, but I'm not sure how Madara could give his will the physical form of a coat without having something to form the coat out of... furthermore, if the stakes are made of Hashi's cells, then why didn't they react to Naruto's yang chakra? Seelentau 愛議 10:37, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

Well, as I thought, your proposal even if sensible is still opinionated, considering the other folk may interpret what has been presented differently. For all we know, all Hash-Black Rod related instances are just a coincidence/unrelated occurrence. Last time I remember, I think it was Cerez who said that the best course of action is to just write up all there is to know without actually giving a forced explanation, leaving it vague for personal interpretation and it had been done, but for some reason the Outer Path has stayed there... so how about we remove that and leave the rest of the article be as is? But there indeed seem to be some connection to the Gedo Statue, those Edo Jinchuuriki pierced with the rods were bind to it somehow and the chains appear to be Outer Path related, so perhaps that's where it comes from? Unless you have given an explanation for that.

For what the composition of the rods is, the blood part may still be canon. After all, it's in our bloodstream, that's why blood tastes the way it does :-/ Realistically it doesn't make sense of course, considering the amount of iron in our bodies is nowhere near high enough to make a pen sized stick, definitely not plenty of giant rods, but this is fiction we are talking about, so we shouldn't dismiss it just cause of that.

So what if it's like this: Madara who was connected with some creepy tentacle spine thingies to Hash's Plant Clone, had his blood flow through it (symbiotic relationship)... Madara's blood in Hash Plant Clone + plenty of chakra + will = black rods ready to be served.

This would also finally account for why Zetsu, who have no blood at all, were given a blood type in the databooks. Am I not a sweet Jesus fucking genius? ;-) EDIT: Yamato, Madara nor Hashirama react to Naruto's presence either, they are more stable I guess--Elveonora (talk) 13:18, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, so I removed the Outer Path part for now. Furthermore, when Madara creates the black rod from Hashi's cells, he forms a hand sign. Can anybody else tell what sign that is? Seelentau 愛議 11:20, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Even now he uses the Hash arm, but perhaps he just doesn't want to damage his glove :P And I haven't noticed any hand sign, chapter/page?--Elveonora (talk) 12:53, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * 506 or so, dunno. Should be happening in the anime next week. Seelentau 愛議 13:55, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * He used the Ram hand sign, should be added perhaps--Elveonora (talk) 14:08, January 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * He did? To me it looks like a mirrored Ram, since his right hand is on top of the left. Seelentau 愛議 14:12, January 15, 2014 (UTC)

He is left-handed? Still Ram tho :)--Elveonora (talk) 14:19, January 15, 2014 (UTC)

Rinnegan?
Why is this a Rinnegan jutsu, like, at all? When Madara used it the first time, he used it without Rinnegan and actually, it was never hinted at any Dōjutsu involvement... shouldn't we remove it just to be safe? • Seelentau 愛議 21:10, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * It appears to have to do more with Hash cells than anything. Each time a Hash-dosed character used it, it was from the Hash arm. Not to mention originally it came from Plant Hash navel--Elveonora (talk) 21:18, April 22, 2014 (UTC)


 * Hard to say they revolve heavily around the rinnegan i think it stems from YYR (Kuroiraikou (talk) 21:34, April 22, 2014 (UTC))


 * Agree that the Rinnegan is not required to make the black rods. Madara is only seen using them after implanting Hashirama's DNA, Obito only produces them from his artificial right half even after absorbing Ten-Tails, and it isn't entirely clear whether Nagato even could create them on his own. That said, in chapter 569 Obito implies that using chakra to bind whatever the rods touch is derived from the Outer Path, and he seems to be referring to both this and the method Nagato used.--BeyondRed (talk) 00:39, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Obito didn't produce the ones that came form his artificial right side, Madara did. They're the same rods that appear when Madara attempts to subjugate Obito and force him to use the Outer Path: Samsara of Heavenly Life Technique. They were probably originally there when Madara grafted the Zetsu half to him. And just to point this out, the Rods are not entirely a Rinnegan jutsu, they originate from the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path -- That's where Nagato originally got them, and probably Madara, and eventually Obito. Each person only demonstrates conscious creation of the rods after gaining control of the Statue. And it was implied that the rods were a byproduct of Yin-Yang Release in Madara's usage of them - This would make sense given their chakra disruption properties. Skarrj (talk) 02:45, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Obito was also able to make rods grow out of his artificial half when he wanted, not just when Madara forced them to emerge. Anyway, it's true that Madara said the rods were made from his will like Black Zetsu in chapter 606, did he not? I assume the only reason this is sort of danced around in the article is because it would imply that Obito and Nagato could also manifest their will, which likely isn't the case (maybe for Obito, since he can use Yin-Yang). Anyway, we should just write the sources as we've seen: Madara creates rods from his materialised will, both from his own body and from Hashirama's artificial body; Obito's rods always grow out of his right half; and Nagato's rods originally came from the Mazo, though the Pains could produce more through an unseen method.--BeyondRed (talk) 03:35, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Bumping this one too--Elveonora (talk) 12:51, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

Connection to Truth-Seeking Balls?
I kinda have the feeling that they are similar. Like, the black rods being an incomplete version of TSB that lack the malleability/shapeshifting and ninjutsu negation qualities. So I could imagine it being like this:

Both the rods and TSB are manifestations of Gedō Mazō/Shinjū's Chakra, which would explain why they can be grown out of Plant Hashirama/Mokuton and body parts made from it, which are originally just Hashi-cells that were cultivated and therefore imbued with Shinjū Chakra!

Main difference between the two: Rods are "materialized" Gedō Mazō-Chakra (=Shinjū minus 9 Bijū), thus can be created and controlled by anyone who has synchronised with Mazou through the Outher Path of the Rinnegan and can be produced either directly from the statue or from anything that was infused with its Chakra, like a Rinnegan-user's body or Plant Hashirama cells.

TSB on the other hand are materializations of the full Shinjū's Chakra (=Gedō Mazō + Sen-Chakra of the Bijū), can only be used by being the Shinju's Jinchuuriki (or the host of all nine beasts, which is essentially the same), Rinnegan seems not necessary for TSB.

So, TSB (which Madara called "Senjutsu of the Six Paths") could essentially be Rinnegan's/ Outer Path's/ Gedou statue's ability to create a Chakra-conducting material (which in itself could have been made with either YinYang- or all-five-elements-composite release and is called "manifestation of the user's will") + huge mass of Sen-chakra (=Bijuu-chakra) added to the mix?--Kiyuna (talk) 03:52, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

You can't even compare the two at all without some speculation. And Hashirama's cells alone have never produced the Black Rods, read from the previous section (I already explained that there). These rods share no general characteristics with the Truth Seeking Spheres, which are malleable spheres of chakra, unlike these rods which are solid constructs with a set shape and design. The Black Rods or their Material has never been produced in any shape other than the rods. The only similarities between the two is that the Truth-Seeking Spheres have been shaped into rods which could receive Obito's chakra. Just because the Orbs can receive and project chakra does not mean they are similar to the Black Rods, just that they can adopt their characteristics. This could just due to the presence of Yin-Yang Release in both, which Madara seemed to suggest the Rods possessed before. Skarrj (talk) 04:00, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Well i didn't exactly say the rods can be produced from Hashirama cells alone. I said they can be produced from anything that has Gedo Mazo/Shinju-Chakra in it, which includes: The artificially created Hashi plant, Zetsu, the right half of Obito and most probably the body of any Rinnegan wielder since its Outer Path ability essentially is synchronisation with and using the Chakra of the Gedou statue. Of course, the actual TSB have nothing in common with the Black Stakes as far as we know, and i would in no way suggest to add any connection in the article. Just a speculative thought that may fit into the whole picture of Rikudou Sennin powers, let's see what we'll learn in the next chapters.--Kiyuna (talk) 04:21, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Speculative discussions go in the naruto discussion forums, not talkpages. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 05:12, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Naruto as a user?
When Naruto pinned down Madara's limbo shadow in ch 675, he said he used "the six paths' rod" (not sure if the translation is correct though). Now was that just a TSB shaped into a regular rod or a TSB made into a chakra receiver rod like obito and madara did before? Would be plausible since the receivers were used in the same fashion previously to immobilise Tobirama. --Kiyuna (talk) 22:24, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * I understood it as Naruto having shaped three of his TSB into stakes to bind the shadow. The fact he left a shadow clone behind also lends credibility to that, as if the user is beyond 70m, they can no longer control the TSB. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:34, May 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's just Naruto giving nicknames to things and people taking it too literary. Hagoromo is the original TSB user, so an orb turned into a staff is "rikudo staff"--Elveonora (talk) 22:39, May 14, 2014 (UTC)

Yea that's right Naruto has a habit of just inventing names for techniques he doesn't know, remember the "Gedo no Jutsu"... Probably those stakes just happened to look like the chakra disruptor blades, cause the disruptors/receivers may require Rinnegan as far as we know. But do TSB stakes have the same effect of paralyzing anyone stabbed or did they just impale him?--Kiyuna (talk) 13:18, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

Zetsu as a User
Gosh it seems like I'm all over Zetsu's case lately. Chaprer 656, page 16. While back tracking through the chapters, I noticed some rods materialising outta BZ. Noteworthy? -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 21:37, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * I see the rod appearing along with BZ as well, not sure what that means tho--Elveonora (talk) 22:20, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Obito has had those in his Zetsu-made side for a long time, earlier seen when he saw Rin die and went crazy. It is not Black Zetsu sourced, BZ didn't exist when Obito first showed them. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:03, May 22, 2014 (UTC)

inside of Obito's body
Somewhere in the articles it says that the rods that burst out of Obito's body during the war were the same ones that Madara had placed into him during Hash-procedure. That may not be true, since as we have seen, the rods in Hash have vanished, meaning so did those in Obito after Madara disconnected himself from tentacle life support--Elveonora (talk) 13:54, June 12, 2014 (UTC)

Bump, this is also relevant to the above topic. Since they disappear after its caster's death, the rods weren't the same as those Madara had placed there--Elveonora (talk) 12:50, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

why do we even
Label this as something separate from Will Materialisation? I find it hard to believe that identical rods can be made using 2 different techniques. In fact, latest chapters make it even clearer. And I believe that Seel is right and Hash cells are a thing in this. So theory of everything:
 * Since Gedo Mazo was Kaguya and Kaguya made BZ using Will Materialization, this being Will Materialization would explain what the rods were doing in her navel
 * We know Madara can also use Will Materialization and even stated a rod to be his will, that's why I'm not even sure why this article exists as a separate technique
 * Madara always used Hash hand or Hash clone directly to make a rod
 * Obito also made a rod using Hash hand, but for some reason we made that to be a different rod made with Truth Seeking Balls--Elveonora (talk) 14:29, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * This was a page on the chakra receivers, as in the rods. Then it was folded into a Chakra Recover manifesting article. So yeah.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:40, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * I know, what's your opinion though? Same as Will Materialization or not? Because as of now, I don't see any evidence for this being a different technique nor for it being a Rinnegan technique--Elveonora (talk) 15:33, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * I would say no. As the chakra receivers seem more...versitle than just will do so things.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 15:59, July 11, 2014 (UTC)

The rod Madara used to fight Hashirama in the fourth war came out of his left hand, which wasn't a Zetsu hand, if I recall correctly. Also, the rods Obito made for the barrier are no chakra receivers made from his will, but from his gudodama. Other than that, I agree with you. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:16, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Chapter for the left hand if you may? We saw Naruto turn the Truth Seeking Ball into a Tailed Beast Ball, so it's reasonable Obito did the same and turned one of them into the rod. That doesn't mean the rod was any different though, still functioned the same.--Elveonora (talk) 19:36, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Can't remember, it was when Madara explained to Hashirama what Shinobi are. Also, Naruto didn't turn anything. He simply made the TSB bigger, added Wind Release and that's it. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:49, July 11, 2014 (UTC)

Should Sasuke be listed as a user?--KiritoLevel96Alicization
 * When did Sasuke make a chakra receiver?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:29, July 28, 2014 (UTC)

If he could purge Tobirama of the rods, then could he use it?--KiritoLevel96Alicization


 * Pulling the rods out of Tobirama cause he has no fear of being influenced by them just means he could pull the rods out of Tobirama cause he has no fear of being influenced by them. Naruto was able to pull a chakra stake out of his own gut and that was partly because he threw more chakra back the other way to shake Pain off.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 20:03, July 28, 2014 (UTC)

merger
This page should at last get merged with Will Materialisation. The black rods also known as chakra receivers and chakra disruption blades are made with Will Materialisation. This is proven when Madara makes a black rod, tells Obito it's his will in physical form and tells him to use it with Six Paths Technique. Ten-Tails in form of Gedo Mazo also produces the black rods, guess why? Because they are will materialisation--Elveonora (talk) 15:57, September 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * So Pain is also using Will Materialization or are we just gonna go with that "every black rod in existence was made by Madara that one time" nonsense?--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 20:58, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Honestly at this point I couldn't give two *#(@s but I would like to see the chakra reciever/blade get their own articles again.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 20:59, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Highly likely and Obito too. I mean, I find it highly unlikely that rods made by two separate techniques would be identical and to be used with Six Paths Technique. There's no evidence for the claims of this article, that the receivers are made with Rinnegan technique and so on--Elveonora (talk) 21:21, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

There is no need for a new article or for merger. We only need to mention that this technique is made from the will of a Rinnegan user who is able to use the Six Paths Technique. That will be enough. Three Rinnegan users were able to create this, with one of them commenting that its made from his will, while a fourth Rinnegan user were able to hold it without suffering from the after effects. Its clearly a Rinnegan technique. Also making both Will Manifestation and the Chakra Receiver Manifestation, a Parent and Derived technique will be good, since the Will Manifestation is an article that covers everything Will-related, there is no problem.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 21:48, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Madara made black rod without Rinnegan tho and commented it's his will in physical form. EDIT: also Gedo Mazo doesn't have Rinnegan, it's sealed and yet it produces the black rods--Elveonora (talk) 21:52, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Madara could also use Susanoo without eyes. Madara apparently can use any eye technique he wants without the eyes to cast them. So I really don't think we should be using just him as an example of how this works.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 21:55, September 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's true and I agree eye-less Susanoo was an asspull, but I don't think we should now assume that just because 1 technique (Susanoo) can be used without eyes, so can now every other doujutsu in existence, thus I think it's safer to say the rods have nothing to do with Rinnegan, besides being suitable to be used with Outer Path--Elveonora (talk) 21:57, September 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * Madara said that "this was made form my will". I am sure that it was something created before. He used past tense there even in Japanese.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 22:02, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

Do you know Japanese? At least from the anime episode, I recall it being worded differently--Elveonora (talk) 22:03, September 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * We need to ask Seelentau, I guess.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 22:20, September 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * For the longest time I was convinced the rods were not directly related to the Rinnegan, but lately I've been less sure. Looking back, Obito makes a reference to Nagato's "Outer Path binding" when explaining how the rods bind whatever they touch. It would be pretty strange if creating the rods is not an Outer Path ability, but the act of sending chakra to them to bind targets is. Also, as far as I can tell, that Outer Path binding statement is the reason we list Demonic Statue Chains as an Outer Path technique, so why was it decided to list the chains as such but not the binding rods themselves?--BeyondRed (talk) 00:05, September 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, we list a Rinnegan-less Ten-Tails as user of Rinnegan (outer path) technique... doesn't make sense to me--Elveonora (talk) 10:20, September 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but wha?--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 10:43, September 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * We list Gedo Mazo as user of Demonic Statue Chains and said technique as Outer Path technique, thus a Rinnegan one, but Gedo Mazo has no Rinnegan. Also Gedo Mazo can produce the black rods from its navel, so if it's a Rinnegan tech, how does it do that without a Rinnegan?--Elveonora (talk) 10:46, September 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the same broken as hell mechanic that lets Madara do the same #*@&? One where as long as you had the eyes you don't necessarily need them to keep doing said broken @(#*? I don't know and I very much don't care to be honest. Like I said, all I want is for the tools used to get their own article again and leave this stupid will nonsense elsewhere.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 10:55, September 25, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I too would like this article be turned from a technique one back to "tools"--Elveonora (talk) 10:57, September 25, 2014 (UTC)

Bumping this, more opinions needed--Elve Talk Page 13:36, September 26, 2014 (UTC)

What's the actual question, this technique actually being Will Materialisation? TricksterKing (talk) 13:47, September 26, 2014 (UTC)

I think Evle right on this one `cause Tobi used them as anchors for his Gedo chakra chains and Madara used chains without them, so apparently receivers is will manifested unit from one's chakra. Rage gtx (talk) 13:55, September 26, 2014 (UTC)

@Trickster, this article claims that production of black rods is Rinnegan power, even tho there's no evidence for that and also it separates itself from Will Materialisation even tho Madara made a black rod, said it's his will in physical form and instructed Obito to use it with Six Paths Technique and also Gedo Mazo produces said rods, which doesn't have Rinnegan, but Kaguya is known to materialise her will. Clearly, the black rods are an application of Will Materialisation rather than a Rinnegan technique.--Elve Talk Page 13:59, September 26, 2014 (UTC)

I agree that the black rods can be used for will materialisation but I don't think that they are created using it. Other than the demonic statue, all the people who used this technique/tool were rinnegan wielders, Will Materialisation is used to control people, not create black rods. TricksterKing (talk) 14:25, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, it isn't. Will Materialiation is used to materialise will into physical form, something Black Zetsu and the rods are--Elve Talk Page 14:26, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * These rods are clearly nothing to do with will, Nagato, Obito and Madara all used them as weapons that had the bonus effect of paralysing the enemy but only Madara bothered to do anything involving will with them and he'd already displayed the ability to infuse his will in a completely different way, he just used the rods to do it at a distance. TricksterKing (talk) 14:42, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except the chronologically first (Naruto universe-wise) appearance of a black rod is Madara making one from his will and telling Obito to use it with Six Paths Technique, so the black rod Madara made and Gedo Mazo pierced Nagato with were logically made in the same way, through materialising will, unless you believe there are multiple way to make the black rods--Elve Talk Page 14:49, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Naruto and iirc Obito both turned truth seeking balls into chakra receivers and the demon statue clearly didn't have will to manifest, it was a feral animal incapable of any real thought, also it seemingly produced the rods after Nagato decided to synchronise with it which could be that Nagato created them since he did the same through the six paths of pain. TricksterKing (talk) 14:58, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Feral animal incapable of any real thought made Black Zetsu tho, so clearly you are wrong at that point.--Elve Talk Page 15:04, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not the Ten Tails/Kaguya, she clearly had enough intelligence to create black zetsu prior to being sealed the first time, the demonic statue only produced the rods when Nagato summoned it and decided to synch with it, and Kaguya definitely wasn't driving it at that point. The demonic statue only displayed any intelligence after Obito evolved it into the ten tails. TricksterKing (talk) 15:12, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except the manga says she made BZ while getting sealed. EDIT: and I also don't think you need super high intelligence to have will, your dog has will too even though it is dumb--Elve Talk Page 15:16, September 26, 2014 (UTC)

My dog's will extends to eating and shitting when it need to, which is pretty similar to the level of intelligence of the demonic statue, since the smartest things it did was hit some guys jumping at it's owner, push some rocks away when it was getting crushed and roared once or twice, that doesn't seem like the level of intelligence required to create something out of thin air. TricksterKing (talk) 15:22, September 26, 2014 (UTC)

Very amusing response, kudos. But seriously now, what would be your suggestion how to present what we know about them in the most correct way? I'm just trying to make sense of it all--Elve Talk Page 15:28, September 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think we can make sense of it any more than we already have, we know that they can be made, Obito didn't start making them until he stole Nagato's Rinnegan so it's most likely Rinnegan based but that doesn't tell us anything new, so I think we're already presenting the info in the best way possible given that we know nothing about how they're actually made, other than that Nagato might've created them from his blood or something. TricksterKing (talk) 23:29, September 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * Receivers grew out of Obito when he was a kid, the same time he first awakened Kamui and Wood Release (the first chronological appearance of the rods, actually). Not to mention Madara clearly made them without the Rinnegan. We should do the least speculative thing and say they aren't proven to be a Rinnegan technique, and just admit that we don't (and may never) know the actual requirements to create them.--BeyondRed (talk) 00:06, September 27, 2014 (UTC)

Any more opinions, Foxie, Seel, anyone?--Elve Talk Page 10:24, September 27, 2014 (UTC)