Talk:Sage Art: Lava Release Rasenshuriken

Collaboration Technique
Seeing as Naruto is using Son's pre-made Lava chakra to form this, it should be a collaboration technique between the two of them, right?--BeyondRed (talk) 17:54, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Nope. Son's chakra is inside Naruto, they're different entities, but Son isn't physically there performing the technique. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:58, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I see it more like Naruto using Son's chakra to create the jutsu...sort of like Hinata using the chakra given by Naruto to power up her Eight Trigrams Vacuum Palm against the Ten-Tails.--JOA20 (talk) 17:59, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * By this logic all of Gaara's sand techniques are collaboration ones too.--Elveonora (talk) 18:00, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * 'course it's a collab jutsu. Son gives Naruto the chakra, Naruto sets it free. How's that not collaboration? Naruto could not perform it on his own. Seelentau 愛議 18:10, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Hm.... let me reconsider. I guess Naruto can't merge Earth and Fire himself.... or perhaps he can, but he doesn't know Doton and Katon anyway, so yeah, no KKG in his case, but how are you sure about Roshi?--Elveonora (talk) 18:15, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * And Gaara on his own wouldn't have been able to control sand if he had never been Shukaku's host, that doesn't mean every sand technique he did as a host is a collab either, as you argued yourself. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:19, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * There are many things we do understand all the rules of, including this topic, but also extending to what is a pseudo-JK in all forms, what truly makes a JK, etc. Right now, we may get an answer, so let's wait before saying what kind of technique it is as far as collabs as concerned. --Taynio (talk) 04:15, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

i would define a collaboration Jutsu as "two or more techniques that are being used simultaneously which give each other a positive, negative, or neutralizing effect". Since it's only one technique, but two seperate chakras, its technically not a collaboration jutsu in my eyes (just collaborationist chaka). but then i still suggest we have a higher up come and clear this up. Iowndisciti (talk) 04:26, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

I think it's not a collaboration technique guys lets not forget that the chakra was given to naruto and it's possible that is part of naruto a chakra reserves and collaboration technique is where two being enhance there Justus by help of each other it's like a boast and naruto when he used that Corrosion Style Rasenshuriken he did it by himself we saw him asking for Son Gokū chakra but it could just be for us to see that he is usingSon Gokūwhen he wants as he wants so that lava style could be narutos own power as the chakra was given to him as a gift and is now his own chakra it's true that originally the chakra was 4 tails but just like sages chakra is part of naruto this chakra can also be and the chakra wasn't sealed in him it was transferred which leads me to believe it's another power up which does not include naruto becoming jinchuriki of 4 tails as if that was the case the chakra would have been sealed in him so I will call it his own skill and there for a Kekkei Tota since it contained earth,fire and wind style user:xenon assassin 12:01,April 21,2014 (UTC) i think the lava realse is a tailed beast skill so son give the chakra with lava nature and naruto use it instead of wind nature chakra in a form of rasenshuriken --Nitram86 (talk) 19:26, April 21, 2014 (UTC)

Wind Release
What should we say about the Wind Release. Naruto calls it only Lava Release, but there are these shuriken-like blades that remind of Rasenshuriken.--JOA20 (talk) 17:59, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * There is no Wind Release involved, otherwise it would be stated in the technique's name.--Elveonora (talk) 18:01, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Elve: I don't mean to be antagonistic, because I realize we got into it a little to heated with the whole Truth-Seeking Balls thing, but that is the worst logic I've ever seen aplied to anything. It has Wind Release mixed in for sure. Those blades are slicing through the Shinju like a hot knife through butter. Lava doesn't do that. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:02, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Chidori doesn't have "Lightning Release" in its name, but it's very obviously a Lightning Release technique. The shuriken part of this technique is clearly Wind Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:04, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Why do you assume those blades are unique to Fuuton? For all we know they are red and hot this time--Elveonora (talk) 18:06, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because Lava doesn't cut. It doesn't make for good blades either. Wind is the only nature that does that. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:09, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm with Elve-kun on this one. Those blades weren't described as a result of the wind release. Seelentau 愛議 18:10, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * And again I say, when Lava can cut anything I'll agree with you. But it doesn't. Wind is the cutting nature. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:12, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

You would have a point Foxie if we saw Naruto making a WR:RS first and then asking for Son's chakra, except he made it whole in his palm as Lava Release--Elveonora (talk) 18:14, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * If what TTF says is true, then how come Naruto doesn't create a fully new element (kekkei tōta, fire+wind+earth)?--JOA20 (talk) 18:15, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because Dust Release is the merger of earth, fire and wind chakra, not lava and wind. And even if Son has the ability to merge fire and earth into lava, Naruto doesn't have the ability (as far as we know), to merge either lava and wind, or earth, fire and wind. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:17, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * (HOLYS CRAP PEOPLE! EDIT CONFLICTS >_< /rant jk) Here's how I see it. See if this makes sense, because it may not xD Naruto isn't having to mold Lava Release. He's making a Fūton Rasenshuriken and then adding in the chakra Son pre-molded for him. I mean the blades cut through a tree. Lava doesn't do that even in the fictional depictions that Kishi made. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:18, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Also it's as same as Naruto and Sasuke's collaboration technique, it's not Shakuton. It's just simply Fūton and Enton. By the way, Foxy-sama was right, Naruto created the Rasenshuriken firstly and then he mixed it with Son's chakra. — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 18:21, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

@Shakmoot, where you do see that? I see the contrary, he asked for chakra and made LR: Rasenshuriken. The way I see it is that Naruto made only the Rasengan and then added the lava nature to it--Elveonora (talk) 18:22, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * You explain to me how lava cuts anything and I'll agree with you. The blades cut the tree and there is no sign of a burning effect. Hell, the smoke is coming off the central sphere only, not the blades. The cutting, people, is the decision maker. Not the name. No one is arguing if Lava is involved or if Naruto made it with lava. The point is lava doesn't cut, Rasenshuriken is a wind-based technique, so logic dictates that he mixed Lava from Son with his Fūton Rasenshuriken, and we get this love child technique. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:25, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) Yes. It was Lava Release Rasenshuriken, not Lava Release Rasengan or Lava Release Rasentectonic plate. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:26, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Elve-kun: Does that mean the Rasenshuriken isn't a completed technique? Or he created the Rasenshuriken and mixing it with Son's chakra simultaneously? Sorry I couldn't understand it perfectly. But still agreed with Foxy-sama. — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 18:30, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

@Omni, so you mean to tell me that Rasengan + Fire/Water/Earth/Lightning wouldn't shape it into a shuriken but a square or a triangle? ...--Elveonora (talk) 18:33, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not into a shuriken, no, I don't. An Earth Release Rasengan would make no sense having something that looks like cutting, and if at least one nature transformation would probably turn into something different, why wouldn't the others? We were shown that the shape transformation turned the wind chakra into tiny blades by Tsunade, the very fact that other natures have different effects means that the shape transformation would turn them into something else, ergo not a shuriken. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:43, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * The fact that the "molten rock" appearance didn't spread to the blades is proof enough that more than Lava is at work in that technique. And. For the millionth time, I'll say: Lava. Doesn't. Cut. Agreed with Omni. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:46, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, okay... then add Fuuton too and list rasenshuriken as parent if you must--Elveonora (talk) 18:50, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Thankfully it reached a conclusion without me. But I'm surprised no one put more emphasis on the "rasenSHURIKEN" part. The Fuuton portion comes from the shuriken naming. Not all collab/combination techniques are like Fuuton, Katon, Doton: blah blah blah blah blah. Some even just say something a la Suiton: Water Something Cannon Blast (not a real technique), but would use Fuuton and Suiton. But it's definitely the shuriken part we need to look for to determine the type of technique, based on the rules of naming we've seen in the past for multiple chakra natures.

That being said, "doesn't cut" works, too, lol. --Taynio (talk) 04:22, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

The thing is, Rasengan itself is strictly chakra alone. While Rasenshuriken has only been shown as a variation that includes an element with it, theoretically Rasenshuriken can be only chakra. That is probably why Naruto calls it FUUTON: Rasenshuriken. Here there is no including the Fuuton Element, but rather Lava. Onto the main point here, Lava may be the centralized part of it, however in the end it IS chakra. The swirling around it don't necessarily have to be of the Fuuton element but may just be regular (or sage) chakra being pulsed around it. It does not HAVE to be Lava OR Wind spiraling around the Rasengan to make the Rasenshuriken. Koriami (talk) 15:03, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Its wind. Rasenshuriken is a WIND element technique (it required wind to even take a shuriken shape in the first place, so the "regular chakra argument is as bogus as they come) and this technique is only Rasenshuriken with added Lava. Its Lava and Wind. There we go. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 15:17, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * "Fuuton: Rasenshuriken" is wind. We have not seen any proof that Rasenshuriken BY ITSELF is impossible. Nor have we been given any reason to believe that it is impossible. Naruto created the technique after learning to manipulate the Fuuton element, so naturally he included it into the design of the jutsu. However showing that the Lava Release Rasenshuriken CAN EXIST, merely leads me to believe that the Rasenshuriken technique is possible without an element attributed to it, just like its base move the "Rasengan." And if that is the case, which it appears to be, it is entirely possible for Lava Release Rasenshuriken to exist WITHOUT the Fuuton element included by producing regular (or sage) chakra for the spiraling around it. This chakra can cut if manipulated in a way that allows it to (or in other words, in the way the Rasenshuriken would require). If this was as cut and dry as you are trying to make it sound there would be no need for a discussion about it. Koriami (talk) 16:50, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * You missed the entire point. Wind Release is required to make it a shuriken-shape. That alone debunks your entire paragraph. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 16:57, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Alright then. To be called "RasenShuriken", there is the implication that it needs to look like and/or resemble a shuriken. At no point in time is it stated that the Fuuton element is required to achieve this form. In fact, that is what my entire last post was about. Saying how the move was left open to have the potential to be used without requiring the Fuuton element. And if it can be used without said element, then that also leads to the implication that another element may be used in its place. Leaving Rasenshuriken as a base jutsu and its elemental variations as a more advanced version. Koriami (talk) 17:28, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, no, no, you're not getting it. Go back to the chapter in which Naruto is creating the Rasenshuriken. Wind is the only chakra nature that produces blades and by simply pouring wind chakra into the Rasengan, the shuriken shape was created. Naruto named it based on the appearance it took, not because he purposely shaped it that way. No other chakra nature is going to produce the blades. So your argument is literally impossible. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:34, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * But it is not impossible. Chakra can be shaped and molded in any way. Point and case, the fact that there is a Fuuton: Rasengan and a Fuuton: Rasenshuriken. If the wind release made it so that the blades had shown up, Fuuton: Rasengan would NOT be a possibility. However, Fuuton: Rasengan and Fuuton: Rasenshuriken are two seperate jutsu. Leaving it to be believed that Naruto DID have control over the shape, and that Elemental Affinity does have little to do with the shape of the jutsu.Koriami (talk) 17:48, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * It is impossible because Kishimoto wrote that wind chakra is the only nature that creates blades. Kishimoto writes the series, I record the series. When Kishi writes that another nature can create huge slicing wind blades, which take on a specific shape upon application to a Rasengan, then I will relent and record it. Edit: And no. Naruto had no control over the initial shape. The moment he added wind to Rasengan, it formed Wind Release: Rasengan... a small wind shuriken. From there, he made it bigger with shape transformation, and poof, Rasenshuriken. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:52, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Kishimoto has and will continue to make mistakes. The Rasenshuriken has become Naruto's trademark move, so Kishimoto is continuing to use that. He wanted to introduce a new element to it, so he decided to. And, using Shape Transformation Naruto recreated the Rasenshuriken using the Yoton element. You just said exactly what I was saying, except said it is the reason it can only be Fuuton. If Naruto can use Shape Transformation to make a large shuriken, he can surely do it with another element. And as I said before, the blades don't HAVE to be made of the Fuuton element. They can be simple chakra as well. If he can control the shape, then surely that removes the shape being an impossible factor without Fuuton.
 * Also, we have not seen the jutsu HIT yet. We have seen the waves around it cut into a tree, but we have not seen it hit yet. It could explode/melt once it hits rather than cut through Madara. Also, another thought, they never said the blades were created by the Fuuton element. In fact, on this very wikia, it says Naruto himself creates the four points required for the Rasenshuriken. So even if Naruto himself were not in control of creating the points (which, it says he does) then the points could also be caused by such a high concentration of chakra in a single area. There are many explanation as to why the points are there, however them being created because the Fuuton element exists within the technique are very slim when there is a jutsu, using the same base technique, containing the same elemental affinity.Koriami (talk) 18:05, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Again. This is Kishimoto's story. Not yours or mine. Its not my job to tell him where he isn't making sense or where he's making "mistakes" (highly presumptuous of you to say, because you are assuming, with that statement, that Kishimoto didn't want to make it a mix of wind and lava). It certainly isn't my job to be cocky and correct that for him. He said only wind produces chakra blades. Rasenshuriken is a core wind technique. This techniques is born from adding lava to that wind mix. I record those facts and my job is done. There is nothing to argue about that. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:08, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Highly presumptuous of you to say many of the things you are saying. Such as deciding that Yoton: Rasenshuriken contains the Fuuton element where there is no proof of this. As you said, this is Kishimotos story. If he meant it to be Fuuton he would have made it clear. Rasenshuriken itself is NOT a core-wind technique. The variation we have seen uses the Fuuton element, however the VARIATION is called FUUTON: Rasenshuriken. If Rasenshuriken itself was a core-wind move, then would it not just simply be called Rasenshuriken? From what we have seen Naruto produces this Yoton: Rasenshuriken immediately. There is NO evidence showing that he first created the Fuuton: Rasenshuriken and THEN added the Yoton element. I would prefer if you would stop trying to attack my character and provide more "evidence" to support your case and disprove mine. Until mine is dis-proven (which cannot be done until you prove yours accurate), there is reasonable doubt to your claims and as such cannot be called the absolute and final verdict.Koriami (talk) 00:54, April 14, 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to point you to Big Ball Rasenshuriken and Mini-Rasenshuriken. Neither has Wind Release in the name, both very clearly Wind Release. Same goes for some of Temari's techniques. Baki's Blade of Wind. Chidori and Kirin don't have Lightning Release on their names, clearly Lightning Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:20, April 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * I would agree with what you are saying Omnibender, however this DOES have an element leading its name. Yoton. In all of your examples they have no elemental affinity included in their name. Now, if it was "Katon: Chidori" what would you assume the element was? The logic that has been applied in this discussion is also that just because there is an elemental affinity in the name does not mean that is necessarily the element. If that was the case, "Fuuton: Rasengan" doesn't necessarily have to be the wind element. Basically, what I am saying is, if you can't go by the name when making a judgment call such as this you also cannot include name omissions as an example to prove your theory.Koriami (talk) 01:29, April 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't care about the name. At all. I care about the giant ass blades of wind that  cut through a tree  and the fact that wind nature chakra is the only chakra nature that produces blades, per Kakashi's own words in previous chapters. You cannot change my mind on this, nor can you change what is already established in the manga. It has wind in it. That's all there is to it. That's not being presumptuous, that's using facts to come to a logical conclusion. What is presumptuous is to assume that Kishimoto would suddenly change the nature of a well known Wind Release technique for shits and giggles. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:34, April 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * So wind is the only element that can cut? I fail to see the logic in that. Considering Chidori's primary ability is to cut/pierce. And on that note, I don't need to change your mind. All I need to do is provide logic supporting my ideals until your ideals have no more logic to back themselves. Which, as it appears, I am doing. Also, Almost any element can cut. It all depends on how it is used. Wood element can cut, as can earth, lightning, water, and lava. Lava is a liquid substance with solids inside of it. Shaped thin enough and moving fast enough, it can cut. And, as I said before, THIS VERY WIKIA SAYS THAT NARUTO PRODUCES SAID BLADES. Not that the wind element creates them. Arguing that the blades being within the technique means that it has to be Fuuton is an invalid argument. And actually, it is presumptuous to say you know what Kishimoto could be thinking. Neither you nor I know that, so all we have to go on is what is presented to us. At the moment, we are shown that there is a YOTON Rasenshuriken. There is nothing there indicating the Fuuton element. Implying that wind is the only element that can produce a sharp effect is like saying that there have not been any other jutsu (aside from those with the Fuuton affinity) that have been able to produce a cutting effect. Koriami (talk) 01:51, April 14, 2014 (UTC)

Point of Note: Sasuke makes it a thing to create blades of black fire. In other words, he uses Blaze Release to to cut things. This is relevant to this discussion.
 * Carry on.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 02:17, April 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Fire doesn't cut. The blade my burn through things similar to the way a blade cuts through whatever needs cutting, but fire doesn't have an edge, nor does it have the capabilities to cut, so it would be improper to say Blaze Release cuts anything. He makes a valid point about lightning having piercing qualities (there is a difference), but unless Naruto suddenly learned that too, that theory is out. The point is, Rasenshuriken is a wind technique, all of its variants are wind, and wind is the direct reason the shuriken blades form around the Rasengan. Kishimoto isn't just going to swap out that element and make Lava create a cutting shuriken for the lulz. That just doesn't make sense. I'm amazed its even being argued. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 03:09, April 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * If you take a look at the picture, we don't see what kind of effect the jutsu has with the tree. We do realize that it passes through the tree and damages it. However, we do not know if it is a clean slice or if it is merely ripping through it. In all honesty, the cloud of smoke not only blocks us from seeing if it was a clean slice or not but also can be used to say that the damage to the tree was NOT a clean cut. If it had been a clean cut passing through, there would not be quite as much debris flying through the air. It is a reasonable assumption to say that it is more tearing through the tree than an actual clean cut to begin with.Koriami (talk) 12:13, April 14, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure why people are forgetting what Foxy pointed out. The entire reason, reiterating what he said, rasengan became rasenshuriken is because of adding fuuton to the mix. It took the manipulation and molding of wind chakra to achieve that form and have those abilities. It took fuuton to make it spin like that. All arguments against having Fuuton, especially considering what we know of how techniques are named, are invalid because of that. Now, if it turns out Kish makes a point of saying Fuuton isn't in it, Foxy and others will concede, but until then... --Taynio (talk) 04:38, April 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * As I mentioned before, if Rasenshuriken came into existence because of the fact that the Fuuton affinity was introduced into Rasengan, then Fuuton: Rasengan would not be a possibility. However it is. That leads the readers to believe that while we have only seen Rasenshuriken while it was infused with the Fuuton affinity, Rasenshuriken itself was created by Naruto. In fact, as I have mentioned before, on this very wikia it states that Naruto creates the four large points. Not that the Fuuton affinity does.Koriami (talk) 12:09, April 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Another point of clarification; Rasengan already spins. Wind Release was not needed to make it do what it was already doing. Carry on.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:18, April 14, 2014 (UTC)

All the Rasenshuriken is is an advanced form of Wind Release: Rasengan. The blades are a trait carried by both WR Rasengan and WR Rasebshuriken. And yes, Naruto does make the wind blades... with Wind Release. &#34;Demons run when a good man goes to war.&#34; (talk) 13:36, April 14, 2014 (UTC)


 * Spinning is irrelevant, and you show you lack the knowledge of the jutsu and chakra natures, TU3. I'd also refrain from using "carry on" during every post, whether you're a sysop or not; you are not above anyone. It's very condescending and rude. You also make mention of the basic Fuuton rasengan, meanwhile the basic one we've seen in the manga and anime also showcase the shuriken-esque shape. At this point in comparison between Fuuton Rasengan and Fuuton Rasenshuriken, the only difference is size, and Naruto aptly calls every size differently. And again you fail to comprehend the concept of: Fuuton cuts. Based on how the latest jutsu Naruto is using appears to be cutting, and.... F u u t o n  c u t s, it's easy to figure out that there are multiple elements being used. Naruto formed the (fuuton) Rasenshuriken while Son Goku supplied the Yoton (another topic, though). Despite the fact I disagree on a magical "entity" aspect that Elv believes in for the Bijuu, they are still sentient and capable of behaving on their own. This is a collab jutsu between Naruto and Son Goku, and it uses Senjutsu, (Son) Youton, and Fuuton. You can talk about how you think the shape matters not until you're blue in the face, but you're ignoring the groundwork we have already. If it does turn out that Kish states it is not fuuton, then we can concede. But given the evidence we have -- it has fuuton incorporated into it. And no, so you do not attempt to reiterate the introduction aspect -- the shuriken shape was to enable it to cut. The shape itself is designed with fuuton in mind. This was spoken about IIRC in the manga. It is an easy delivery system and also makes it look cool. --Taynio (talk) 17:34, April 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * As I mentioned before Taynio, there is too much dust in the way to see what kind of damage was dealt to the tree. I personally feel as though all of the debris is because this in fact was not a clean cut.Koriami (talk) 23:08, April 14, 2014 (UTC)


 * As I said, I am not afraid to concede when the information presented proves me wrong. As for the "clean cut", that is an opinion. I see the panel and don't see it as being as dust as you say. That's my opinion, and it is neither right or wrong compared to yours. I''m hoping the chapters brings it up. --Taynio (talk) 07:01, April 15, 2014 (UTC)

My opinion: the heat of the magma is so intense and concentrated, it creates a narrow, bladed effect. After all, Atsui did use Cloud-Style Flame Beheading to create a flaming blade. Mui used Heavenly Prison Fire Sword that can pierce and burn. Sasuke can use Amaterasu as a blade at times to stab, and if I remember correctly, slash. So why not this? Why can't the magma be the cutting blade, why does it have to involve wind? Yatanogarasu (Talk) 06:09, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh... I don't know. Because it just cut through a giant tree. Fire. Does. Not. Cut. AT ALL. Nor does lava. Especially lava. No more debates on this one. It certainly has Wind Release properties. My guess? Naruto uses the flames in Lava Release to empower the wind nature. It only makes sense. But there is no doubt wind is involved. None. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 06:15, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * The blade LITERALLY BURNED THROUGH THE ENTIRE TREE. How can you possibly think that it is more unlikely for HEAT TO CUT (which Sasuke has done) than it is for WIND TO BURN? The blade did not cut like wind but it did burn through the tree. Even while the blade of the Rasenshuriken is travelling by the tree the blade leaves a burning path, not a cut one. Further proving the blade must be of either the Katon or Yoton element. I can link the picture of the burning tree if you would like.Koriami (talk) 12:04, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah I'm also gonna have to go against you this time Ten Tailed Fox. That Rasenshuriken is defiantly made of lava, as it burned it's way through the tree. I'm aware of how lava actually works, but clearly Kishimoto isn't. And it has long since been known that we document the series and make note of his mistakes, we don't try and fix it for him--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:10, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * On that note, I feel as though Wind Affinity should be removed from this jutsu. Koriami (talk) 13:42, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

I am not entirely sure why people think it couldn't have Fuuton in it. It doesn't negate the ability for things to burn. It can still cut and burn things because -- surprise, surprise, Youton is still there. And there is absolutely no reason for insulting Kish by saying he doesn't know something. It is more likely you are not understanding the mechanics and nature of the jutsu than him not knowing how lava works. You can use Fuuton to form the Rasenshuriken, making the blades, then using Youton and Senjutsu to strength it. We've seen this kind of thing before. Now, does it mean this happened? Clearly we'll never know, so we should end the discussion here as nothing new will ever be brought up by us, and possibly never by Kish, either. --Taynio (talk) 13:44, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * The Statement you cant prove its not there does not prove that it is there. And that means there is no reason to assume that it has wind affinity. If you cant prove that it is there then the safest assumption is that it is not.Koriami (talk) 14:09, April 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * "Assume that is has wind affinity". Rasenshuriken is a wind technique. I can't bear this conversation any longer. My head is dying from the logic being used. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 15:05, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * And you cannot prove it is incorrect, nor yours correct, but only one scenario is more likely given everything we know about the series. Hazard a guess?--Taynio (talk) 15:08, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * I honestly can't believe this conversation is still going. The Rasenshuriken is the evolution of the Wind Release: Rasengan. Wind release is a fundamental part of its existence. Its very shape was made to take full advantage of that nature type. It doesn't have to explicitly be labelled with Wind Release to be a Wind Release technique (see: Mini-Rasenshuriken). If wind release wasn't part of the technique it would receive a different shape and simply be Sage Art: Lava Release Rasengan. The central Rasengan portion of the technique is Lava, the blades are wind. Notice that the technique causes no burning until it bursts.--Soul reaper (talk) 15:16, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually the blades burn before it explodes implying that the blades are lava nature. Since they BURN. Also, since the blades burn and the lava affinity is in the jutsu, the blades cannot be fire and wind.Koriami (talk) 16:35, April 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * It was named rasenshuriken because of its resemblance to a shuriken and having fuuton characteristics. There is no reason to have it be a ranseshuriken if there is no fuuton in it. Otherwise, Naruto would've made an entirely new rasengan-based attack using senjutsu and Youton. --Taynio (talk) 16:43, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * A couple things. Jutsu can be element based and still have variations not of the same element (fire dragon, water dragon, mud dragon, anyone?) Just because Kishi decided to make a new form of this jutsu doesnt mean it still has wind. I will say this now: as has been said, this is Kishis manga. Not mine, yours, nor anyone elses. He said Lava Style. Not wind. To make assumptions to anything BUT what he said implies that you know better than him. It says Lava, not Fuuton. Kishi wrote lava not wind. So until officially stated otherwise it is Lava.Koriami (talk) 16:55, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

I feel for you tentailedfox to go through having people not understanding simple logic, the rasenshuriken has blades cause of the wind chakra, tsunade already stated this. In no way can lava form a blades or cut that cleanly through the shinju. The lava became the core of the jutsu that being a rasengan, so if were truly just lava only then the jutsu name would rather have been lava release: rasengan or oodama rasengan (like mentioned above) but that rotating slicing chakra is plainly wind chakra since its the only nature apart from water having the ability to slice through objects. Finally, if you take a look at the shinju after the attack its been clearly sliced and has it ends burning, to deny this simply means you have no common sense with all due respect, smh --Rayzur (talk) 17:35, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

IMO, kishi stated lava release because of it being a major componenet of the jutsu and since naruto has used the rasenshuriken without saying the wind release part does it mean there's no wind it? or you prefer kishi going Sage Art: wind release lava release swirling shuriken before you accept the obvious? smh--Rayzur (talk) 17:40, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Or if Naruto shaped the Jutsu to look like a shuriken (which he prefers to do for its ability to be thrown plus it has been a reliable technique for him since its creation) he COULD call it Rasenshuriken still, due to the fact it would still retain its same shape. Plus, as far as the "End burning" That is because that is the point of contact the attack made on the shinju. As I mentioned earlier THE BLADE OF THE JUTSU BURNED THE SHINJU. Look to this picture for the trail of fire that occurs WITHOUT THE CORE TOUCHING THE SHINJU. http://i.imgur.com/3Qg1dc5.png On top of that, this picture also shows the blade leaving a trail of fire on the shinju. Not a clean cut. Arguing further that the blade is Wind style is pointless, considering that (and this is using TenTailedFox's logic) WIND DOESN'T BURN. Also, As far as "people not understanding simple logic" every point I have made is easy to grasp. It has proven a point, backed up a point, and proceeded to prove the points others have tried to put against it wrong. Ultimately, there is no wind style in this jutsu. The "Blades" burn. Which goes to show that it is NOT wind style. The core has already been established to be lava style. How there is any thought left that it could be wind style confuses me to no end. As mentioned earlier, jutsu because a jutsu is originally created of one element does not mean it can not have derivations of a different element. All it takes is nature manipulation of a different chakra nature. Shape manipulation can be used to recreate any shape. Whether or not the same affect occurs is up to the writer (Kishimoto) and as shown in this chapter, the same effect was reached by Naruto using a Lava Style Rasenshuriken. Rayzur, look more carefully at the chapter before saying people have no common sense, because the blade burned the tree. The tree did not burn after the blade cut it. If you are wrong after bringing others intellect into question, then where does that place yours? No offense. As for your edit, he doesn't have to say "Wind Release Lava Release", he just has to give some sort of indication that it is WR. And, as I said before, WR does not cause flames. Which the BLADE (which is the only part of the jutsu that has the potential to be WR) of the jutsu was used to burn the Shinju. That is just as bad as saying that WR is the only thing that can cut (Which has been proven otherwise with FR, LR, WaR). I simply fail to see where this logic is hard to understand. Koriami (talk) 18:27, April 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * Apparently, the lava sphere heats the air blades (you can see smoke coming out), allowing them to cut and burn simultaneously. And when the sphere explodes, it releases a sharp wave of hot air, cutting and burning the entire length of the tree. Thunder God Cid (talk) 18:13, April 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * And this one has me thinking, if what everyone is saying is true (Naruto using WR: Rasenshuriken then adding to it) then the core of the jutsu would be different than just Lava style anyway. It would have Wind Style in the core as well (which it obviously does not). On top of it being incredibly hard to add an elemental affinity to the Rasengan (not even the fourth could do it) Naruto is supposedly doing it with two different elements at the same time? On of which only a rare few have the ability to use? I don't believe that would be possible in the Narutoverse, let alone for Naruto to do it on a whim. He used Sons Lava chakra to make the jutsu, and if the blades are causing a burning because of the "Heat" coming from the core, then couldn't that also simply be the insanely fast rotation speed of the Rasengan creating the blades out of the heat it is emitting?
 * And one more thing, when WR rasenshuriken is used, even when spinning at max speeds you can still clearly identify the blades that are spinning around it. However, with this jutsu you can only see the blades as soon as the jutsu is used. Once full rotation is reached, you can no longer identify them individually.Koriami (talk) 18:27, April 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * I just wanna point out what other people currently call him: Jesus Naruto. In his current state, there is almost nothing he cannot do. --Taynio (talk) 18:35, April 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * Let me also point out that, if there is almost nothing he cannot do, can't he recreate his favorite jutsu using a different element? Seems highly plausible to me.Koriami (talk) 18:41, April 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * I am sorry, I laughed at that and couldn't take it serious. Please don't take this as me being a bitch or rude. I just didn't expect that kind of response. It isn't wrong, but it doesn't follow any mechanical progression usually associated with everything. If Naruto made a Raiton Rasengan, we'd expect there to be something in it that makes it follow the laws of Raiton characteristics. The same would be said for Suiton, Doton, and Katon. But there would be no reason for Youton to take the shake of a Rasenshuriken, which has only ever been seen with Fuuton, and even in its current state, and people trying to nitpick, still displays characteristics both visually and mechanically of being related to Fuuton. I would also assume that adding Fuuton to Youton would make it huge enough to cut the giant ass tree, since Fuuton strengthens Katon-based techniques. --Taynio (talk) 18:52, April 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * I've been laughing at this whole argument so far, so I understand where you are coming from with that first part. However, you cannot abide by logic that aids both your argument and mine. For the second matter are you really going to talk about progression in a shounen manga? Where powers and abilities takes leaps and bounds through sneezing? That in itself is a hilarious statement.
 * 1. The blade burns. Which means Fire (or in this case, lava considering that it is a lava style jutsu)
 * 2. Naruto did NOT use the Fuuton variation before adding in Sons chakra. He added the sage chakra on top of sons chakra so that it could still harm Madara who at this point has not been able to be hurt by anything except Sage Chakra and Taijutsu.
 * 3. Once at full rotation, you can no longer see the blades of this rasenshuriken. Unlike the Fuuton variation, where the blades are clearly visible even once full rotation is reached. Koriami (talk) 19:02, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

Chidori does not have "Lightning Release" ahead of it, but is still a lightning technique. This technique, however, has "Sage Art" and "Lava Release", indicating it is senjutsu and lava, but nowhere does it say "Wind Release". Point is, if there's no "[Element] Release" prefix, then we can assume; if there is a prefix, then we can't just add an additional element, right? This case is unlike the Exploding Clay being Explosion and Earth Releases. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 02:52, April 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * Exactly. And Deidara, while you are right his techniques are both Explosion and Earth releases, does not call his jutsu with an element if I remember correctly. He merely says "Katsu" when he wants them to explode (accompanied with a handsign). I have not memorized the entire series word for word, but I do not recall any jutsu, that has multiple elemental affinities, that does not combine the elements and only calls one of the elements. Usually if that is the case, they would omit calling the element in the first place (example Typhoon Water Vortex Jutsu). Ignoring this fact also ignores how the names of every other jutsu in the series has been produced. Now, I could be wrong but I would prefer to have proof of that before people just come in and say that I am wrong. This alone (provided that I haven't overlooked anything) should be enough to say that it does not contain wind release.Koriami (talk) 12:06, April 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * Except there is a commonly known fuuton jutsu name within it: Rasenshuriken. The entire premise of a rasengan being a shuriken is for fuuton, to be able to cut. There is no reason for Naruto to create a pure youton rasenshuriken. He could make an entirely new technique based on youton. However, he picks one that is synonymous for being a fuuton jutsu, and it's entire design, again -- is to cut. Yet people ignore this fact, which should alone be enough to say that it does contain wind release. --Taynio (talk) 13:36, April 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * Two noticable problems with that theory Taynio.
 * 1) You assume that just because the Wind Release technique in it, all techniques that use a Rasenshuriken will also be Wind. That may not be the case. As someone mentioned earlier, there are a lot of techniques that produce dragons and what not, and those aren't cosnidered the same technique. And let's not even get started on the elemental clones.
 * 2) Naruto has made close to half a dozen variations of the Rasengan, which were all just different ways of ramming them into someone. When it comes to breaking someone's face, he tends to not think very far from what he already knows.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:46, April 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * It's less of a theory and more of basic logic/critical thinking. Why use a jutsu that is designed to cut not actually cut? The shape is fuuton-designed and inspired. The entire premise of rasenshuriken is for cutting. Does that mean I am right? No, but based on what we know about the technique, it's a safer bet on it having fuuton than it not. And Naruto could've used a basic rasengan, a large rasengan, or made a random one on the fly. He made a lot of spontaneous new jutsus when he first arrived on the battle field, all rasengan inspired. So why not this one? Not only does it have a fuuton-name, part of the name itself has shuriken on it, which is a weapon designed to cut (doesn't have to be thrown, technically, as it will cut either way). Not only is rasenshuriken designed up cut, but it does infact cut. However, it doesn't cut someone, a hill, a beast, or anything else. It cleanly cuts a giant ass tree that feels like it reaches to space almost. We see that the tree was in fact cut. To achieve this level of cutting, as Asuma explained when teaching Naruto about base chakra vs nature chakra, basic chakra will only go so far. Asuma showed an example of it, and we saw a fuuton weapon cutting through a lot more cleanly, and going further. How could we expect a technique called Senpou: Youton Rasenshuriken to cut? There is no inherent element in that which would allow it to cut, especially to the degree it did. Since we see it cutting through the tree, so we have to assume that there is an element that is known for cutting. Otherwise, there is no reason for any of it. It simply makes no sense. --Taynio (talk) 14:17, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * For the record, I could really care less about this technique, I doubt we'll ever see it again. I'm just saying you are probably really over thinking it. The only reason why it is listed as Wind Release is because Rasenshuriken was a Wind Release. He very well could have made a purely Lava Rasenshuriken, and considering how it acted (the blades flickered like flames and when it expanded and bursted it didn't make the giant wind dome of death) again I would argue there is no wind. As to why did he use an existing technique and modified it when he didn't need to? First: Makes a far more interesting scene then seeing him throw the same Rasenshuriken we've already seen, Second: Kishimoto wanted it.
 * But as I said, I don't care much. So carry on.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:55, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

There was no indication that this technique was Wind Release at all. Aside from the fact that it is declared to be a Lava Release technique, when the technique was cutting through the tree, we can clearly see that it is the fire (lava, whatever) on the edge of the disc that is doing so. And as for the disc itself, there is nothing indicating that is an indicator of Wind Release. The technique involves shape manipulation, and clearly can be in whatever shape Naruto wants. More clearly, a disc-shaped object is going to be a better throwing weapon. The Wind Release part that Tsunade originally ascribed to the techniqued had to do with the microscopic needle things that the technique created. I just don't understand why this has Wind Release attached... Skitts (talk) 15:41, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * This. WR should not be a part of this jutsu and should be removed from its entry page... Koriami (talk) 18:23, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

--If wind truly was involved wouldn't Kishi have called it Dust Release instead of Lava Release? Just a thought...NinjaGuy830 (talk) 03:15, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

@TU3 and Skitts - I may be overcomplicating it, but it also explains what happened mechanically. I don't exactly care, either, but I'm bored. And yes, he technically could've made a pureYouton Rasenshuriken, but there's is no reason to thematically, unless he doesn't want to make a powerful jutsu that can cut (Fuuton) as well as a fire jutsu that can burn through a giant tree (Youton). Without fuuton, a rasenshuriken has practically no cutting power, and that's why I've emphasized the important of the element being added. We saw this, reiterating, explained by Asuma. As powerful as Naruto is, it is extremely doubtful a non-fuuton based rasenshuriken would be able to cut the Shinju completely like that. And Skitt, you bring up a great point, except it doesn't actually help the case against fuuton IMO. Since it cut at a level lesser than or equal to that of cells (if memory serves me correctly), it only makes much more sense that a non-fuuton based rasenshuriken would be less likely to cut something that huge and that powerful, whereas it generally only makes sense a rasenshuriken using fuuton would. And even if it was a non-fuuton based Youton Rasenshuriken, we'd never actually expect it to cut (from a non-Kish perspective) because that's simply not how the element is displayed thematically. We'd simply anticipate it in being thrown, landing, and then perhaps exploding (in the sense of upon contact, the lava splattering) and catching things on fire. I think people are forgetting the important of the characteristics of elements and the lessens we were given about them.

Even if I am wrong and fuuton isn't a part of it, I think people are missing important pieces that overwhelmingly explain why fuuton should be a part, leaving me to go "What?" at Kish if he ever states it never had fuuton. --Taynio (talk) 03:48, April 18, 2014 (UTC)


 * I have understood every part of what you have said Taynio. I understand how the move can be interpreted to have a Youton center accompanied by Fuuton blades. I understand that the blades have been a symbol of Fuuton (though, to be honest, that could also be because that is the only variation of the rasenshuriken we have seen until now). As far as not having any cutting power, without Fuuton, I have to disagree. In the state that it is in, we can assume the lava in this jutsu is a liquid. Liquid itself can have some major cutting power when used in the right way. If the rotation was fast enough and the liquid (lava) spread thin enough it would be the equivalent of a very sharp edge.
 * I believe that the blades around this Rasenshuriken are also either spinning much faster than previous or are made of a different substance than the Fuuton: Rasenshuriken. This is due to the fact that once full rotation is reached with the Yoton: Rasenshuriken, we can no longer distinguish the blades from their rotation as we could in the Fuuton variation. Which could also go to show that it could be one flat rotating disc of lava around the Rasenshuriken (that is just speculation of course).
 * Just because Fuuton is the first element that is thought of when associating with techniques that can cut, does not mean that it is the only. Including the fact that the naming should have been something to include the Fuuton element as well. I would accept that it doesn't necessarily have to include Fuuton in it, if it was not for the fact that there was an elemental title in front of the name. This would be the first instance of a jutsu that has an elemental title in the front of its name that contained more than one element. Even Naruto and Yamato's Fuuton/Suiton jutsu chooses to omit the elemental title in the front. I would believe that is because saying "Wind Release: Water Release:" would be too long and arduous a jutsu name. So omission of the release title is the obvious choice. Where as Naruto chooses here to call it Sage Art: Lava Release Rasenshuriken. Based on previous naming principles, this to me seems as though it was intentionally called Lava Release to clarify that it was a variation that contained Lava Release rather than Wind Release. I feel as though these facts are too set in stone to ignore. The biggest argument saying that the blades are Fuuton is that first of all they exist. Which can easily be explained by Naruto choosing to use Shape Manipulation to make them that way. And as I referenced earlier, there are other elements that can cut aside from Fuuton. Koriami (talk) 04:33, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

Dropping my two cents, it's not a Wind Release technique. There's no reason to think that it's Wind Release, and the fact that it's explicitly called Lava Release indicates that it's a Lava Release technique. "Shuriken" has nothing to do with wind, and the Rasenshuriken doesn't derive its shape from its Nature Transformation; it's called a Rasenshuriken because of its Shape Transformation, which makes it look like a shuriken in the same way that a Rasengan looks like a sphere. Water can cut through metal, an acetylene torch can cut through metal. I imagine a giant, rapidly spinning shuriken made out of molten metal would be perfectly capable of slicing its way through a tree trunk. FF-Suzaku (talk) 16:06, April 18, 2014 (UTC)


 * /shrug, I never even thought of Shape Transformation. Hm. Well, I'm convinced this technique shouldn't be Wind Release now. I say remove it. /backtothekitchens--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:15, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

The shuriken shape is not due to shape transformation. Wind Release: Rasengan already has shuriken-like blades. It always has, even when Naruto was still still having trouble making it. Rasenshuriken is just bigger, so the blades are bigger. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:16, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yup, the blades indeed are due to nature transformation. Although I don't think it's impossible for the shape to have been recreated using shape manipulation. I think we are making it into a bigger issue than it is. Both sides have valid reasoning for why it is and isn't Wind Release. The thing is, I think it's safer to assume something is not there than that it is--Elveonora (talk) 21:22, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * If Rasenshuriken is just an enlarged Fuuton: Rasengan. Then why not name it something else going along with the size of the jutsu? He has a million different types of rasengan most of which are just different sizes. He changed the original Rasenshuriken a little bit anyway. He made it have its throwing capabilities, which was not able to be done when he first showed the jutsu. What if these are two seperate types of jutsu? This is just a theory, but bare with me on this.
 * The first time Naruto used "Rasenshuriken" it was, in essence, an enlarged version of the Fuuton: Rasengan. However, in order to amplify the abilities of the rasenshuriken and give it the ability to travel through the air, he used shape manipulation to strengthen and solidify the shuriken shape. So, while it looks very similar, the jutsu would actually be performed very differently. This would also open up the option of performing this with other affinities because the shape of it, while inspired by the fuuton variation, is primarily shape manipulation. Again, just a theory. But it could explain the sudden change in the Rasenshurikens capabilities.Koriami (talk) 23:13, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * No. Wind Release: Rasengan already has shuriken blades because of wind. Rasenshuriken is a much larger variant of the exact same technique. Wind is involved in this technique, but I simply don't have enough alcohol in my system to keep arguing plain logic when it has clearly flown out the window in 90% of this conversation. Thank you, Elve and Omni, for understanding the obvious. Lava will never create a shuriken. Ever. Wishful thinking sure seems to be rampant around here lately. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 03:29, April 21, 2014 (UTC)


 * Elv is against it having Fuuton. Omni, iirc, was for it having fuuton. So I'm confused, are you for or against it? lol--Taynio (talk) 05:00, April 21, 2014 (UTC)


 * Alright let me get this straight. Water can be formed into the shape of people, giant dragons, sharks, and create spheres that cannot be escaped. Not to mention given enough speed and pressure that it can rip through mountains as though it is paper. Fire too can be turned into giant dragons. Dust style is also a perfect example of Shape transformation. It's abilities are pretty much entirely based around it. Kakashi himself utilizes Shape Transformation on a regular basis (like with Raikiri or Lightning Transmission). Lightning can be intricately formed into the shape of hounds (with great detail mind you). As well as a large chunk of Sasuke's jutsu are just variations of chidori controlled with, yes you can guess by now, SHAPE TRANSFORMATION. If lightning can be controlled in such a way (you know, that substance that moves and discharges so fast you can only see it for an instant) why is it impossible for a substance that can CLEARLY be manipulated (shown here, here, and here) to be shaped in such a way if he so desires it? If that was impossible, then the ONLY thing that would be required to make a jutsu is nature transformation. However, things such as the Chidori and Raikiri use BOTH Nature transformation(which is just turning your chakra from a blank slate into an elemental type) and Shape transformation (which controls the SHAPE OF A JUTSU). Actually, I rephrase that, ALL jutsu that have an elemental affinity use both of them. It does not matter WHAT the element is as long as the user chooses to shape their jutsu in such a way. If your argument is still simply "Lava cannot be shaped in such a way" then find a new argument. This has clearly been proven invalid by the apparent limitless opportunity to shape ones chakra as shown by all the examples I have provided here. Basically, that argument is null and void at this point. Wishful thinking at this point is hoping this jutsu has WR in it, since there are no visual, auditory, or naming cues to make one believe so. Koriami (talk) 12:41, April 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Amen?--Elveonora (talk) 12:52, April 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't want to start an edit war or something, but I think a lot of people forgot how the Rasenshuriken was created. Rasenshuriken was created via the usage of Wind Release: Rasengan and it was formed by using Wind Release Chakra and if it was Fire Release Chakra or Earth, or any other chakra, the result would've been different because each different kind of Nature Transformation gives its jutsu a shape unique to the element. Not only that, but Rasenshuriken is a Wind Release Jutsu and if there's no Wind Release added to the name, that doesn't mean that there is no Wind Nature Transformation in it, and if my logic is correct, Chidori doesn't have Lightning Release in its name, Cloud-Style Flame Beheading doesn't have Fire Release in its name either and etc.. The whole thing (shape transformation) was explained by Asuma that Wind Release is sharp and thin. Not to repeat myself, but if there's no Wind Chakra in this jutsu, it wouldn't first of all have the "Rasenshuriken' in its name (since Rasenshuriken is a Wind Release Jutsu and all parent jutsu, like Big Ball Rasenshuriken, are also Wind Release Jutsu), and it would'nt have the thin and sharp look in it.--Omojuze (talk) 13:41, April 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * "if it was Fire Release Chakra or Earth, or any other chakra, the result would've been different because each different kind of Nature Transformation gives its jutsu a shape unique to the lement" speculation, never stated or shown. For all we know, Fire Release: Rasengan would have the same four blades just of fire. Also read above about shape manipulation--Elveonora (talk) 13:48, April 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * True, there is no true.. But, wait, if this is not Wind Release, then what is the parent jutsu of this? "Lava Release: Rasengan" and "Lava Release: Rasenshuriken", cuz without a nature and shape transformation, Rasenshuriken cannot be formed?--Omojuze (talk) 14:02, April 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Minor point of clarification: Wind Release: Rasengan hasn't been seen in years. Wind Release: Rasenshuriken is not actually an oversized Wind Rasengan, because Wind Release: Rasenshuriken did not explode, expand, or could be thrown. It was, a Rasengan with Wind chakra. Carry on.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:05, April 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah, TRUE!! But there is still wind chakra inside--Omojuze (talk) 14:06, April 21, 2014 (UTC)

All we ever saw Wind Release Rasengan do was clash against a regular Rasengan, in which case the effect on Kakashi's hand was similar to Rasenshuriken, just not in the same scale. Its explosions during Naruto's training was because the technique was still unstable, and the only other time it was used it was in conjunction with a Water Release. I'd also like to bring up the point of Naruto's new Rasengan variant from 674 (since most, if not all the chapter is already out there as I understand). Naruto specifically called that a Rasengan, not a Rasenshuriken, clearly showing that not all nature transformations result in a shuriken. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:21, April 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * The assumption that you are making here Omnibender is that Nature Transformation is equivalent of Shape Transformation. While a jutsu may take on some properties of the element that is imbued into it, ultimately the control of the shape of the jutsu is up to Shape Transformation. Read my previous comment where I explain, with much depth, why this jutsu is still entirely possible even with lava not creating a natural shuriken shape when imbued into the rasengan. Also, as I mentioned in the comment before that, I proposed a decent theory on the development of the Rasenshuriken and what would explain most of what has happened with the Rasenshuriken from start until now.Koriami (talk) 18:46, April 21, 2014 (UTC)

I believe it would best if we left the nature type box blank since since folks here are giving both "logical" reasons of what nature constitutes the jutsu, it be best to wait for the anime interpretation or a databook interpretation cos we're not getting anywhere with this battle of intellectual egos'--Rayzur (talk) 08:42, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

NOTE: there's no other shape transformation in making the rasenshuriken apart from the rasengan, naruto just poured his wind chakra into the rasengan and the result was four blakes swirling around it. Kakashi wanted to naruto to add The rasengan(shape transformed chakra) + wind(nature transformed chakra) which lead to the wind release rasengan and rasenshuriken, naruto never shaped transformed the wind chakra into four blades, that was the effect of adding it to the rasengan. Based on this would lava release being added to the rasengan give you four blades swirling around it? ask yourselves this.--Rayzur (talk) 09:08, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

Bassed on what some of yall are saying, every element added to the rasengan will turn to blades even though naruto just pours the said nature into the rasengan. Please can anyone shown me where is stated or shown that naruto shape transfoms his nature cos i haven't seen him do that in 674 chapters --Rayzur (talk) 09:24, April 22, 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm not saying every chakra nature put into the Rasengan would make it look like the Rasenshuriken. I am saying that he chose to make it that way. Here are a couple reasons why there is no wind nature. And a couple reasons why this jutsu is possible with lava nature.


 * 1. First of all, not included in the name. While not having an elemental affinity in a name does not mean it does not contain said element (such as Chidori), this jutsu already contains an element within its name. Any jutsu that has 2 elements with it is either a combination jutsu which does not have an element affinity in the name e.g. Typhoon Water Vortex Jutsu or is a combination of elements such as Dust Release, Lava Release, and even Ice Release. By this logic, any jutsu that has an elemental affinity directly called at the beginning of its name is of that element. If it had been both Lava Style AND Wind Style, it most likely would have been turned into the Dust Style. Since the chakra was all molded by Naruto (even if the chakra was given to him, he was the one to mold it) this would combine all elements in the process.
 * 2. The blades burn. Simply put, wind doesn't cause fire. We saw the blades burn through the tree. We saw the flaming mess that was left when the core of the Lava style Rasenshuriken exploded and sent the blades shooting through the tree. I personally have never obtained a second or third degree burn from a gust of wind, but I suppose I can't really speak for everybody on that.
 * 3. I could probably just copy and paste my whole paragraph about Shape Transformation here. First of all, that is quite an assumption to say that there is no Shape Transformation in a jutsu that looks like a giant shuriken. If you looked at my theory (which someone could probably shoot down if they wanted to pick it apart but no one has yet) that would explain why there is Shape Transformation in the WR:Rasenshuriken. Which would also mean that it is entirely possible to have Shape Transformation in the LS: Rasenshuriken. For that matter, even if there is no ST in the WR version, does not mean that there is none in the LS version of Rasenshuriken. And making a shuriken out of lava style is still clearly possible (once again, reference to previous paragraph about Shape Transformation).
 * 4. There is no evidence, be it visual, audible, and no naming cues, to assume this jutsu has wind style within it. Just because a jutsu resemble another jutsu does not mean it has the same element style. (for example, like this Clone, this Clone, this Clone, this Clone, this Clone, this Clone, and this Clone just to name a few. Not to mention the different element dragons.

In the end, in no way can I see WR being in this jutsu. As I said earlier, I can understand how some people can see that, but I personally can't agree to it with the points I listed above.Koriami (talk) 12:26, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

Koriami, I'm not making any assumption about shape transformation. The Rasengan on its own is already the pinnacle of shape transformation, we've known that since Kakashi started teaching nature transformation to Naruto. Naruto DOES NOT make the blades with shape transformation, those are a consequence solely of the addition of wind natured chakra. Fact, not theory. Please for the love of god get that. And also start using proper linking to articles, you're making this discussion look a mess when I see the source mode. The very fact that a different nature transformation did not result in the blades (the Jiton variant) is proof of that. The entire argument that every shape transformation would make blades is baseless with manga fact now as well. No theories, just facts. This being Lava and Wind wouldn't make it Dust, because Dust is fire, earth and wind, not lava and wind. Burning came from the core of the Rasenshuriken, which had lava. Water Release has from the third databook been mentioned to be suited to shape transformation. The only thing about shape transformation that is relevant to Dust Release is the shape of the container. The power of those techniques still comes from the fact it's three natures together. Only thing shape transformation does is determine how the technique grows. I never argued that lava can't be shaped, what I argued is that the shape transformation of the Rasengan makes the wind chakra into the blades. I still see no one refuting that. You speak of your theories, but I don't see argument that disproves the facts. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:51, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't see how this is still an argument. Like Omni said, Rasengan has been stated to be the pinnacle of Shape Transformation. The entire point of Naruto's training in wind nature was to add his affinity to the Rasengan. Upon doing so, the Rasengan immediately gained wind-like shuriken blades which he made bigger to perfect the Rasenshuriken. Wind is the only thing that will make those shuriken blades: Fact. Not theory. Manga fact. When Naruto adds Magnet Release to the Rasengan? Shukaku's curse marks form around it. No blades. The smoke in this Rasenshuriken was coming from the nucleus right from the very formation. There is nothing other than wishful thinking that says this technique does not have Wind Release. That is because it has wind in it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 16:31, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

Naruto made Lava Rasenshuriken because it was meant to be thrown and just Magnet Rasengan because it was meant for close range. I'm now torn in between for and against. But the fact stays that chakra can be shaped with shape manipulation, it's not within its realm of possibilities to make those 4 blades--Elveonora (talk) 16:38, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except, again, Rasengan in its base form is already stated to be the highest level of shape transformation. The whole point of Rasenshuriken was to add Naruto's wind nature into it. That was literally the entire point of that training arc back in the Hidan & Kakuzu Saga. We saw that the moment he added wind to the basic Rasengan, shuriken blades formed. Wind is the source of the shuriken. Not Lava. Not Fire. Not Earth. Not Dust (how in the holy Hell did that even make it into this argument?). Wind. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 16:41, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wind or shape manipulation ;) Basically, the idea is that there are two Rasenshurikens. One being Rasengan+Fuuton and the other just Rasengan with those blades added using further shape manipulation--Elveonora (talk) 16:46, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Rasengan is as high as shape transformation goes. Hence "pinnacle of shape transformation". The wind forms the shuriken blades; as was established back with Hidan & Kakuzku, and continuously reinforced throughout years of manga. The lava forms the nucleus (obviously). You cannot add shape transformation to what is already the highest level of Shape Transformation. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 16:49, April 22, 2014 (UTC)


 * What I cannot believe is how they're missing how it cuts. Sure, MAYBE -- JUST MAYBE -- Naruto used shape transformation. Okay, I'll give you that. But what I originally said in my first post and in almost every other post in here... What you're forgetting is that -- IT CUTS. You cannot -- ever --have shape transformation with Youton cut as the Rasenshuriken did, even with shape transformation. Shape transformation only affects the shape at the very core and you want to proclaim something you don't even understand. Nature transformation affects shape: because fuuton cuts. So naturally it will take shape to be something that cuts. You can, technically, use base chakra to cut, such as for Medic-nin, but the degree is infinitesimal compared to using fuuton. As I also originally said: Look at the training Naruto did with Asuma. We were taught about how far Fuuton will take jutsus. A chakra-infused blade won't penetrate a rock, yet a fuuton-infused blade will go through the rock and a tree, and more stuff. Basic chakra will only take you so far. To cut the Shinju, you need something known for cutting. And don't imagine a simple non-fuuton based jutsu will be able to cut something that is seen as a god. No, you need something that is known as the best cutting device.


 * What we have here is Naruto making a Rasenshuriken: Which does cut. It does burn, as well, because -- surprise, surprise -- there's lava mixed in. You speak as if the argument solely either contains fuuton or youton. But you never actually treat the argument as if it can contain both. You're like "Well, it burns, so... Youton only." Where's the logic for that? It also cuts... a freaking huge, giant ass, massively godlike, powerful, thick tree, so instead of automatically going to THE CUTTING NATURE ELEMENT, you try to go to something lesser like shape transformation, which determines things such as shape, not effect. You need to treat an effect like cut as the same for burning, because that's how it works in Naruto. Fuuton cuts, Raiton will wrinkle/pierce, suiton will make things wet, katon will burn, doton will turn to dirt. And yet you propose that something known to cut isn't even using fuuton. And, reiterating for the fourth-ish time in the talk page, not just cut a person, but the Shinju. I cannot fathom the level of ignorance (Note: Not stupidity. To be ignorant means to ignore something, and in this case all the overwhelming evidence to support fuuton, and not the circumstantial evidence against it) that goes into play here. Fuuton cuts, Youton burns. The Shinju, given it's a tree, it's going to be partly Doton in a sense. So using Youton is going to help Fuuton cut and burn through the tree. It's not "All hail every other element except fuuton".


 * And those supporting fuuton can be wrong! Kish can come out and say it doesn't contain it. For the longest time, Obito-Tobiers were thought of as being wrong because Obito died. And then Kish came and showed us who Tobi is. And obviously we will concede to that. But the known evidence currently supports fuuton, and not shape transformation which would not do anything of value to the Rasenshuriken. The fuuton naming comes from Rasenshuriken, namely the shuriken part for being thrown (a la wind; through the air) and cutting (a la wind). And Omni and Foxy even pointed out that Fuuton: Rasengan had blades in it solely from fuuton and not shape transformation. And you ignore that so blatantly? --Taynio (talk) 18:49, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

Eh, no. Shape transformation is what gives chakra a shape, be it a ball or a shuriken. Otheriwse, it's just shapeless energy floating around. The rasenshuriken part of the name comes from the spiralling shuriken part of the technique. It has nothing to do with the nature used. Furthermore, anything can cut through things with enough force. • Seelentau 愛議 18:53, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Eh, yes. Per what we know of Rasengan it is THE PINACLE OF SHAPE TRANSFORMATION. It only has shuriken because it had wind nature. When Naruto added Shukaku's Jiton, no shuriken. Even when Naruto was struggling to create the technique, it already displayed the blades, and the only thing Naruto was doing different was adding wind. Naruto is doing no conscious "I'm going to shape this as a shuriken, because shuriken cut" effort. The shape transformation does give it the shuriken shape, but only because the same basic motion (wild rotation) is being done to a cutting chakra. Rotation to plain chakra equals rotating chakra ball. Rotation to cutting nature chakra, equals shape that is round and cuts, a shuriken. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:21, April 22, 2014 (UTC)


 * Of course it comes from the shuriken shape, lol. But the shape has a everything to do with the nature, a la Fuuton: Rasengan. And yes, on a technical level, anything can cut with enough force. But that kind of force to cut the Shinju would take a lot more power given its size and strength with just base chakra versus an element that cuts, and especially on the level that is rasenshuriken. Rasenshuriken cuts, not for the huge blades, but the small cellular blades inside. There's absolutely no reason to have a rasenshuriken unless you're going to be cutting something using the cellular fuuton blades inside. Well, I cannot say absolutely because, on the smallest of technical levels... you can have a base chakra TRY to cut, but there's no guarantee it'll work on the Shinju. --Taynio (talk) 19:13, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

Something tells me this topic is to be remembered for a while :) The reason why the Rasengan is the pinnacle of shape manipulation is because it's a highly compressed perfect orb. It isn't chaotic and unkempt like the Chidori is for example. That doesn't mean it's impossible to add blades to the orb shape--Elveonora (talk) 19:33, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * So you mean to say that while Naruto was using all of his concentration to just create the technique, using several shadow clones for faster experience, decided to spare an unspecified amount of focus to add the blades, so the technique was more aesthetic? No sense there. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:57, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not for aesthetics, shuriken shape flies better than just an orb which gets pulled down by gravity faster. The blade shape makes it rotate and thus stay in the air longer.--Elveonora (talk) 20:02, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

Ah, it seems my comments about naruto adding wind chakra not shape transfoming it has stirred up a little storm, lol --Rayzur (talk) 20:49, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

Everything that has been used as an argument up until this point I have already stated why it is wrong.

1. Fuuton being the only element to cut is already been shown to be completely inaccurate and extremely presumptuous.

2. Why would Kishi name the Sage Art: Lava Release Rasenshuriken so if it contained Wind Release? Wouldn't he name it something else such as Sage Art: Molten Wind Shuriken? To emphasize the fact that while he is not calling out a single element release, there is still elements within the jutsu?

3. Rasengan being the epitome of Shape Transformation in no way means that it cannot be modified even further. It means that it would take near perfect abilities with Shape Transformation to be able to pull it off, but that in no way means it cannot be modified further. Look at all the examples of intense shape transformation that I provided earlier. If we are to assume that creating a shape as simple as a shuriken around the rasengan is by any stretch of the word impossible, then how can we expect someone to create a dog made of lightning or giant dragons of water?

4. As I have mentioned before, just because the Fuuton: Rasengan already had blades from the wind affinity given to it does not mean that the blades cannot be made with shape transformation. We never saw Naruto use a giant Fuuton: Rasengan, so for all we know the blades could be a lot smaller without Shape Transformation to accompany it. In fact, I would be willing to bet on that. If you consider the fact that as a Fuuton: Rasengan the blades are incredibly small in size. So much so that it would not make much of a difference to that attack size. While Fuuton: Rasenshuriken the blades are much larger than the core Rasengan in the jutsu. This only leads me to further believe that Shape Transformation has something to do with the Fuuton: Rasenshuriken.

5.Saying FACT about something that isn't actually proven doesn't make it a fact. Naruto chose to use a regular Rasengan (albeit with the magnet affinity) and that is why it appears as a regular Rasengan. There is no doubt in my mind that if Naruto had chosen to make a Rasenshuriken with the Magnet affinity, he very well could have. Would you say that couldn't make the blades if he so chose to? Because from Gaaras control with sand that leads me to believe that if Naruto could have the same control (or at least Shukaku via proxy) he could shape it in any way he saw fit. And we have seen sand pierce people already. Would you deny that it could be controlled to the point where it could slice through a person?

6. There is much more than wishful thinking at play here TenTailedFox. So far your argument as to why it has Wind Element has been "It cuts" but that has been shown to be a ridiculous statement time and time again. If you would like I can show you some Water Style jutsu that can cut. Considering the lava shares the same state of matter it should be easy to believe that if water can cut lava can too.

7. Asking how Naruto can perform Shape Transformation to the extent needed when before he could only perform Rasenshuriken with clones is again, not that great a question. Not only have we seen progress with that as the series has gone on, but Naruto just got a big boost in power. And apparently in ability to. Notice how he dodged the Limbo? He didn't even know how he did it. As someone said to me earlier in this debate "He is being called Jesus Naruto because he can do basically anything". How is fine tuning his abilities to the point required that unbelievable with everything that has happened?

8. I will quote this here "But what I originally said in my first post and in almost every other post in here... What you're forgetting is that -- IT CUTS. You cannot -- ever --have shape transformation with Youton cut as the Rasenshuriken did, even with shape transformation. Shape transformation only affects the shape at the very core and you want to proclaim something you don't even understand. Nature transformation affects shape: because fuuton cuts" What is being misinterpreted in this quote is how Nature Transformation affects a jutsu. The person saying this is basically saying you are able to classify a jutsu based on its shape. So, if it cuts then it is a Wind Jutsu. That, again, is not true. Please, for this, refer to point 1.

9. Everyone arguing for the side of Fuuton seems to be under the misinterpretation that Naruto Created a Fuuton: Rasenshuriken and then added Sons Chakra to it. This is FALSE Naruto merely used Sons chakra to create the jutsu. Which is why this jutsu is of the LAVA AFFINITY.

10. Here is my input on the whole "Naruto isn't consciously making the shuriken shape" part. Lets use a different topic as an example, such as video games. I'll make this one a bit more brief. When World of Warcraft was released, there were some games similar to it. Not a whole lot, but there were options. But they hadn't been really successful so there hadn't been much of a market for them. But World of Warcraft became (and still is) this huge thing. People loved it. And now you look around and there are thousands of games just like World of Warcraft. Why? Because it worked. Now, if Naruto used a Rasenshuriken (whether or not he purposely made it that way in the first place) wouldn't he again use something that WORKS? If it works any other time, why would he not use it there? But yet he decided to do it with the Lava affinity this time. He even decides to call it out as such. Implying Naruto isn't smart enough to make a copy of his own jutsu with a different element doesn't help the argument. In fact, if he can't do that then how is he supposed to think of making the core different and adding wind blades to it? (Which, I will say again, in the manga they showed it all simultaneously. Further referencing that it all occured at the same time using the same element).

I can keep going on and on about this, but the only argument for the opposing side is that "it cuts" which again is ludicrous. Provide me solid proof (and not assumptions) that it has wind element in the jutsu and I will concede defeat. Until then, there is nothing that says this has Wind element in it. Thats it, end of discussion.Koriami (talk) 00:59, April 23, 2014 (UTC)


 * That's your opinion and we've given substantial evidence as to why, versus circumstantial that you're brought up. I won't even bother trying to argue further. Sometimes it's not fun to argue against the wishful thinking of others. (See? I can say it, too) You might want to reread everything, though, and actually refute points rather than nearing close to strawmans. As far as some of us are concerned, wind is included. Provide solid proof, not assumptions, and I will concede. Until then, it's proven wind is included. That's it. End of discussion. <- Snarky --Taynio (talk) 02:02, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Please i think Mr Kishiami here clearly has a lot of time to write essays about nothing also talking bout "and i will concede defeat" like we got some battle here, you just love to argue and "defeat everyone by all means" so your "intellectual" ego won't get hurt. OK O' kishiami-sama, i concede defeat and bow down to your intellectual genius, smh and peace to ya --Rayzur (talk) 07:48, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

I second Taynio's words. All you're doing Koriami is avoiding and evading the questions, and giving circumstantial explanations. You have not explained why it's wrong, you've done your best to try dancing around and stalling on it being recognized as right. We've given clear examples of how stuff works in the manga. About your points:
 * 1) Wind Release isn't the only type of jutsu that can cut, everyone knows that, but wind chakra is the only one that inherently possesses that characteristic, which is why Wind Release jutsu are the most potent in terms of cutting power.
 * 2) Because he can. The fact it is Rasenshuriken is as much wind in the title as Madara's Sage Yin Release also being Lightning Release because it has lightning, both in name and look of the technique.
 * 3) The complexity of shape transformation in the Rasengan isn't that it is a ball or any other shape, is the fact that he can maintain the shape despite the wild and chaotic movement of the chakra. Look back at how Naruto learned Rasengan, it was maintaining the shape, which required rotation in all directions, while having all that power.
 * 4) The fact it has blades with wind chakra means that there is no point in making them with shape transformation. All that nature training was about was adding wind chakra to the Rasengan, not adding wind chakra and further applying shape transformation. Wind Release: Rasengan is to Wind Release: Rasenshuriken as Naruto's pre-Shadow Clone assisted Rasengan is to Naruto's Shadow Clone assisted Rasengan in part one. It just doesn't have the same power, so the blades are smaller, so we never saw it again.
 * 5) Again, the only shape transformation Naruto has every applied to Rasengan is the spinning. He's not making the blades deliberately. The Jiton variant proves that. There isn't a single thing in the manga suggesting otherwise, and saying so is inaccurate and presumptuous.
 * 6) Refer to point 1.
 * 7) How is any of that relevant to this topic? This is about shape and nature transformation work fundamentally on the Rasengan, not how good Naruto is or isn't.
 * 8) Refer to point 1 again.
 * 9) Naruto used Son's chakra, which has lava nature, and obviously had a hand in adding wind nature, because again, blades.
 * 10) You're again thinking that the shaping of the blades is a deliberate and concious effort. It's not. Otherwise Jiton Rasengan would have blades. It doesn't. About Naruto being dumb to do stuff: he's book dumb. He learns stuff by doing it. He does stuff by getting the feel of it. Kakashi has said that, Naruto himself has said that (go back to him trying to learn Tailed Beast Ball from B).

There is a lot in the manga pointing at it being wind. "It cuts" is not the only argument, it's just one of them, and you ignoring everything else is cherry-picking. We're the ones giving solid facts, you're the one dishing assumptions. I can keep going on as well, as can pretty much every other regular user here who agrees with me, and who both out-number and outlast you. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:34, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Such effort, much explain, many words, very convincing, wow. Okay, I give in. Be it a Wind Release. Just convince Seel at this point and those few guys above and it's settled--Elveonora (talk) 19:40, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Absolutely 100% agree with every single point Omni made. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 22:00, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

How?
The chapter isn't even released yet; merely in raw. I thought adding information was against the Spoiler Policy and we waited until the full manga translated was released On Tues/Wed/Thurs --KiumaruHamachi (talk) 23:09, April 12, 2014 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi
 * Thread:122093.--JOA20 (talk) 23:12, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

There's already a discussion for this in a chat room forum. Munchvtec (talk) 23:17, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Why is it classified as a kinjutsu?
As far as I know, it doesn't comply with any of the 3 requirements (see article Kinjutsu) for it to be classified as a kinjutsu. Can someone explain a reason why this would be considered as such? --Veenp (talk) 16:32, April 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * It falls within the 3rd category, and before Naruto perfected it, it fell also into the 1st. --Taynio (talk) 16:39, April 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * Technically it doesn't. Or at the least it shouldn't. Because only not only was Rasenshuriken declared a kinjutsu because it was dangerous to Naruto, once he adds senjutsu to it which lets him throw it, it wouldn't be a problem. Also Lava Release Rasenshuriken was given no classification, which means I can only assume it is listed as a kinjutsu here is because the base form of it's parent is.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:43, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Which we still argue about if it even consist of any harming Wind at all--Elveonora (talk) 13:50, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * I remember now that the original Rasenshuriken (the non-thrown version) was considered by Tsunade and Kakashi to be too dangerous for Naruto and therefore should be sealed off, which would classify it as a 1st category kinjutsu and not a 3rd category (even though it would make sense considering the scale of any Rasenshuriken but then we would have to classify any large-scale ninjutsu a kinjutsu, and that's a lot of kinjutsu). However the danger to Naruto's body is removed when the Rasenshuriken is thrown. Therefore (IMO), thrown versions of the Rasenshuriken should not be classified as kinjutsu, despite the original, non-throwable version being correctly labeled a kinjutsu. --Veenp (talk) 17:02, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think it's the same case of Tajū Kage Bunshin. It's not because one person or few could perform a dangerous jutsu without risks (thanks some type of "rare supercondition", for example) that it's no longer a kinjutsu for most. Thunder God Cid (talk) 03:11, April 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * A single usage of this technique completely severed the Shinju, which is noted to be pretty difficult to damage in the slightest. I believe that classifies as Kinjutsu 3rd category, due to the potential for 'massive collateral damage'. From what I could tell from the panel where it severed the tree, the radius did not stop at the Shinju either, since the 'wave' that came from the technique was present a good distance away from it. If this technique wasn't capable of destroying a good portion of a great Shinobi village I'd be very surprised.
 * Do note, we don't classify what is a kinjutsu. Those are classified in the series. As I stated before, this technique, unless someone calls it a kinjutsu, it shouldn't be a kinjutsu.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 21:48, April 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Technique is classified as kinjutsu because before the mass Wind Release ignorance erupted and the technique was listed as having Rasenshuriken as a parent as it should, and since Rasenshuriken is kinjutsu, all its derived jutsu are as well. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 13:19, April 26, 2014 (UTC)

Parent Jutsu
While this style of Rasenshuriken does not have wind style in it (as you can see by my position in the conversation above) isn't this jutsu derived from the Wind Release: Rasenshuriken? It is the same technique with a different element. So, while it has no wind style, it can still be derived from the wind style variation. Making the wind style variation a parent jutsu.Koriami (talk) 13:56, April 19, 2014 (UTC)


 * That's not how parent techniques work. Parent techniques are techniques that their children techs work off of. Lava Rasenshuriken and Wind Rasenshuriken are related techniques, but their parents are both Rasengans or variations of the sort.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:59, April 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh okay. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Koriami (talk) 14:00, April 19, 2014 (UTC)

If this isn't Kinjutsu, why are all other techniques related to Rasenshuriken (even Mini-Rasenshuriken!) labelled as such?SasookayIsRlyCoo (talk) 23:59, May 19, 2014 (UTC)

Not A Sage Mode Technique
Reviewing the pages where he made the technique, I looked closely and saw that there was nothing around his eyes like there normally is when he goes into Sage Mode, so how is it a sage art? It should be noted in the article that it is not actually using natural energy unless I have missed something which I doubt.=Lord of the bored, User:Boredfan1= 09:35, June 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * His eyes had a cross-like shape, which means that he was using both Sage Mode and Tailed Beast Chakra.--JOA20 (talk) 10:11, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

Um. It's in the name of the jutsu Sage Art: Lava Release Rasenshuriken SasookayIsRlyCoo (talk) 01:59, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

Still Wind Release?
I think not. Chapter 688 showed various variations of RasenShuriken and it would appear Wind Release isn't part of all of them. They're all shaped similarly not counting their element. I think it's save to conclusive rule out Wind Release. Insert non-formatted text here

The arguments from before still apply. It stays. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 02:47, August 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * The databook explicitly says that that shuriken blades are a direct result of Wind Release. That combined with the argument above solidifies it. It stays. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 02:50, August 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * ^^^^^This. WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 03:00, August 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * That doesn't mean that it's impossible to create the shuriken with another chakra nature. • Seelentau 愛 議 08:45, August 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Databook also said you needed to unlock tsukuyomi and amaterasu to use susanoo. We said eff that. Also Shape Manipulation is a myth..--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 09:13, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

That's why we need a new databook to fix those messes up. Offtopic: Kishimoto said in the summary of the latest volume: "I correct errors in my original copies (=Weekly Shōnen Jump version) every time they make a volume. Errors I often make are those marks on headgears. Hell confusing!". So everybody does mistakes in his life. — Shakhmoot  (Talk) 09:23, August 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * And when Kishimoto admits that Wind is no longer required for shuriken blades (wind was kinda the point of Rasenshuriken), or you can provide some sort of substantial proof that they're anything else (such as why Mattattabi's flames are only on the Rasengan sphere, rather than leaking into the shuriken), then you'll have a probable case. Until then, I've got Kishimoto's word that they're made of wind and nothing to contradict it, unlike the Susanoo case, where Sasuke actually later corrected that flat out, in-story with a statement. Nothing at all like that for Rasenshuriken. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 17:40, August 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * And I'm still wondering why every Susanoo user isn't listed as using Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. Unless the passage of needing to unlock those two was a mistranslation.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:43, August 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * Because the passage in the databook, as confirmed by Seel (I believe), was referring to Itachi's Susanoo rather than Susanoo in general. During the Kage Summit arc, Sasuke flat out stated that the power that awakens when someone has "two Mangekyō" is Susanoo, which is later proved, finally, by Kakashi, who's eyes did not have Amaterasu or Susanoo, rather Kamui, and still awakened Susanoo. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 17:45, August 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * Did the databook specifically state Itachi's Susanoo or did it just say "Susanoo"?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:47, August 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because just being in Itachi's section doesn't mean it specifically states "Itachi's Susanoo".--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:47, August 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * You'd have to ask Seel for sure, but if I remember correctly, Itachi's Susanoo was the only Susanoo variant in the series at the time of the databook's publication. It came out right after the fight with Itachi and Sasuke, when Susanoo firsts debuted. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 17:49, August 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * It wasn't mistranslated, but updated by Sasuke. Also, come on, we have five Susanoo user and only two of them know Amaterasu and only one Tsukuyomi. It's obvious that you don't need those two techniques specifically. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:51, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

The databook states "Amaterasu, denoting the "light of the material world" and Tsukuyomi, symbolising the "darkness of the spiritual world"—— Only they who have activated the Mangekyō Sharingan —the heavenly eyes that see without obstruction the truth of all of creation— are permitted to use these two dōjutsu. Dwelling only in they who have grasped both of these technique is the power of a tempestuous god… that is Susanoo. The materialised chakra takes on the form of a god of war with a commanding face and powerful physique. His fierce soul will not calm down until he has destroyed all enemies before his eyes…!!"--TheUltimate3 (talk) 17:56, August 7, 2014 (UTC) For added fun here's Rasenshurikens;
 * The "Wind" sharpens the "spiral," turning it into a blade who's one hit means certain death!!


 * "Extreme"—— Certainly, that's the most appropriate word for this technique. Adding "Wind" nature manipulation to the Rasengan, already boasting tremendous destructive power by having raised shape transformation to its utmost limits…!! With this sharp blade of wind, the killing power is drastically increased…!! Its weak point is that one needs to get close to and a hit. On the other hand, there is no-one who can withstand a direct hit. Even so, currently it's only 50% completed. The destructive power it will have once completed is unimaginable!!


 * The technique left behind by a great hero is brought to a new height——!!
 * While it does make direct mention that it has sharp blades of wind, it also makes it a point of adding "Wind" and then "Shape transformation" to it. No where does it state that the wind automatically makes it a shuriken, but it does state that wind + shape makes the shuriken.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:59, August 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes and Sasuke says, later after the release of the databook, when he becomes Susanoo user #2: "Only those that control the power of two Mangekyō can use this power... Susanoo." ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 18:00, August 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * While you have deliciously missed the entire point, you have done well in pointing out that "things change". So, things change. The databook (didn't) state(s) that wind makes shuriken, in regards to the Rasenshuriken. Then Naruto busted out a lava one, a water one, a powder one, a steam one, ect, all of them shurikens.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:03, August 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * Except for the kink in your plot is that only the Rasengan spheres were turned into the tailed beasts elements. Also the databook says adding "Wind nature to the Rasengan, already already boasting tremendous destructive power by having raised shape transformation to its utmost limits…!!". Rasengan is the height of shape transformation. Jiraiya told us that on day one. There is no higher shape transformation above the "height of shape transformation". The databook explicitly states that adding Wind to the Rasengan whose shape transformation is already at its utmost limits results in the Rasenshuriken. Where in the world are you getting that it requires more shape transformation? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 18:06, August 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * So now you're just gonna read it selectively then. I have accomplished what I wanted, I think I'm done here.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:12, August 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * No, good sir, you haven't. You've taken a Rasenshuriken, a technique only used by Naruto, and compared it to Susanoo, which has five different users (only one of which is covered by the databook) and five different circumstances (again only one is covered) to contradict the databook, when not once is the information on Rasenshuriken ever contradicted in the manga. Either that, or your definition of selective reading and mine are waaaaay different. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 18:16, August 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * You have no idea what my goal in this was. As I said, I got exactly what I wanted.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:19, August 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * Actually one more question, can you point me exactly where it states that Wind nature automatically becomes a shuriken? The only thing that comes to mind is when Naruto first made the Wind Release: Rasengan, but that is hardly confirmation of such a claim, unless it has been interpreted as such.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:28, August 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * You guys keep forgetting that Wind Release: Rasenshuriken was created from Wind Release: Rasengan. All all Rasenshuriken have been created from Wind Release: Rasengan. If we would follow the logic of people who want to remove Wind Release from this article, then that would contradict the entire creation of the Rasenshuriken. When has Naruto used Lava Release: Rasengan? And also, as we saw in Sage Art: Magnet Release Rasengan, adding a different nature transformation, in this case a Kekkei Genkai Magnet Release, doesn't create the shuriken-like shape. And that's just the beginning of the arguments.. >.<--Omojuze (talk) 18:34, August 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * I haven't forgotten, I'm arguing the same thing. Naruto has created a Magnet Release Rasengan without blades, and a Magnet Release Rasenshuriken (thanks to wind, obviously) in this instance, which has the blades. Also, Ultimate, its in this line: "Adding "Wind" nature manipulation to the Rasengan, already boasting tremendous destructive power by having raised shape transformation to its utmost limits…!!" As stated by Jiraiya, the basic Rasengan is already "shape transformation to its utmost limits…!!". The databook is then stating that by adding Wind nature to this Rasengan, the blades result, forming a Wind Release Rasenshuriken. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 18:38, August 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * That's fine and dandy and a good explanation of Wind Release: Rasenshuriken. But I asked where did it state that wind = shuriken? Surely it wasn't the passage to Wind Release: Rasenshuriken, couldn't it?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:45, August 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * Well I would think the databook's entry on "The "Wind" sharpens the "spiral," turning it into a blade who's one hit means certain death!!" would be a flat out admission, but there's also the fact that the first time (in the manga and anime) Naruto adds wind to his Rasengan, small shuriken blades form around it immediately. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 18:47, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that the Lava part of this jutsu is only in its core, as we saw in those 9 different rasenshuriken that each of them DO HAVE a different core and all of them have wind added into them.--Omojuze (talk) 18:49, August 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * You mean the first time he started doing nature and shape manipulation the result was nature and shape manipulation? No wai. Come on, Imma need something more solid than Wind Release: Rasenshuriken getting shurikens before I am to believe only Wind Release can make shurikens.
 * And Omojuze I'm also pretty sure the Lava Rasenshuriken cut the Shinju down with a blade of fire. Unless wind can set things on fire now.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:52, August 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, the core holds fire and the sides hold the wind which increases the efficiency of fire. The 9 Rasenshurikens perfectly portray that each of them have wind chakra as that they all have Shuriken-like shapes and are similiar to the regular one, with the exception of the core, and please don't tell me that you believe that EVERY element adds the shuriken-like shape because that would just be absolute bs.--Omojuze (talk) 18:55, August 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * Pardon my language, but what in the good goddamn are you going on about Ultimate? Naruto already knew how to use Shape Transformation before that training. Jiraiya called Rasengan the "highest level of shape transformation". Kakashi also stated the goal of the training he protctored was for Naruto to add nature transformation to Rasengan, which immediately resulted in blades. Go back and read the chapters if you have to, but you're not making a lick of sense. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 18:58, August 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * @No more bs than believing only Wind Release can make shuriken blades. I mean we've seen the elements take on a bunch of different shapes, but suddenly only wind can make a shuriken and to hell if you try to do it yourself?
 * @I'm going on about things Fox. Learning things. Experiencing things. And I am making perfect sense. I am just asking when and where was it stated that wind naturally makes little shurikens. You point to the fact that Wind Release: Rasenshuriken has blades, but I want to know where was it stated that blades were the only outcome.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 19:03, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Why did the appearance of the core change, while the shuriken didn't change at all, though? • Seelentau 愛 議 19:06, August 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * By the fact that he didn't turn it into a ****ing gun or, hell I don't know, a pony? The databook says wind creates blades, I see four massive ones on each Rasenshuriken since the databook was published, so there isn't a single fiber of evidence to contradict what has always been known about Rasneshuriken. You show me where it comes out to be anything different and we'll have that theoretical battle. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 19:09, August 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * This has turned out deliciously entertaining.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 20:43, August 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * Removed my comment since it was stupid. Going back to the shadows.Umishiru (talk) 07:28, August 8, 2014 (UTC)


 * By this logic, you might as well make the blades a seperate technique from the Rasengan itself. If he can just add WR to them, would that not also change the element of the jutsu? Such as Water+Wind = Ice? Which Naruto does not have the ability to do. If people could simply just use multiple elements in their jutsu without needing the Kekkai Genkai to do so I am sure they would. We have not seen this happen except for in collaboration jutsu with another outside party member. There has been no indication whatsoever that he can do a collaboratory jutsu with one of the tailed beasts within him. He can manipulate their chakra as it is within his chakra system, but them exerting free will outside of his body or even manipulating their own chakra through him has not been done before without taking control over Naruto's conscious. Therefor, if he isn't combining two different techniques, then the resulting technique will only retain one element, whether that end up being a primary element or secondary element. What would make this one jutsu the exception from every other jutsu the series has shown us? That is the baseline laid out for all of them and has not yet been proven or even hinted at being an inaccurate assumption.Like I said in the beginning of this, unless the elements are to combine into something else (which still results in a single, albiet different, element) then only one element is to come from the jutsu. Or at the very least I have yet to see any. -- Koriami (talk) 14:42, October 6, 2014 (UTC)