Talk:Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki/Archive 4

Kekkei Mōra
I don't understand why databook listed him as Kekkei Mōra user, is it because he was a Jinchūriki of Ten-Tails? I thought only Rinne Sharingan fits into this category but it seems that Kaguya's Byakugan can also be said to be a Kekkei Mōra, if it is true then Hagoromo's Rinnegan should be classified as Kekkei Mōra, thoughts?--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 20:43, January 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * Nope, we can't just assume that. Madara and Hagoromo had the same Rinnegan. Nagato and Obito had Madara's Rinnegan, yet they aren't KKM users, are they? So it's unlikely to be because of the Rinnegan.--Elve Talk Page 21:21, January 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * I thought it was because of his TSB... but oh well... speculation for now...
 * -- WindStar7125 (talk | contribs) 21:34, January 19, 2015 (UTC)


 * The problem is that we don't have a clear [or complete] definition of the term "kekkei mora" & no one can make one...we just know it's a brand of jutsu unique to kaguya & whoever has her chakra...we don't what it actually is or does...& unfortunately, up until now the manga hasn't given anything concrete about it...hope the mini series does that...btw, when is it coming exactly...also is there gonna be an otsutsuki gaiden before it...U know...like the kakashi one...a lotta things can be explained there...& sry for going off topic :D --DARK ZERO--talk 22:06, January 19, 2015 (UTC)

I was wondering that may be KKM actually comes from Ten-Tails and because he was Jinchuriki his Rinnegan might have become superior, we don't know the extent of Hagoromo's Rinnegan so we can't compare Madara and Hagoromo's Rinnegan only because they look same in appearance, so just saying that it could be KKM and the reason behind it is that he was Jinchuriki and he could control Ten-Tails, we also know the third databook listed Rinnegan as Kekkei Genkai but only the fourth DB listed Hagoromo's Rinnegan as Kekkei Mora making it as an exception, does anybody know what the databook is saying about this? may be we can ignore this as it wasn't explained in manga.--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 13:51, February 3, 2015 (UTC)

Rinnegan Kekkei Genkai
Jin no Sho lists him as Kekkei Mora user, but not Kekkei Genkai, what do?--Elve Talk Page 13:33, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Accepting it and moving on isn't a viable option? • Seelentau 愛 議 15:09, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Not really if we want consistency and facts.--Elve Talk Page 16:14, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Considering other mistakes that made it into the book, for example, Danzo not being marked as having a summon, I believe this is clearly just a mistake. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:42, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * What about Kaguya's Byakugan and Shikotsumyaku? Both are listed as Kekkei Mora, she doesn't have a Kekkei Genkai symbol either.--Elve Talk Page 16:45, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

So when exactly are we gonna just right off that damned book if it's so littered with mistakes?--TheUltimate3 (talk) 16:46, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Why do you automatically assume this to be a mistake?--Elve Talk Page 16:47, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Kaguya's All Killing Ash Bones is superior and stronger version of Shikotsumyaku and it is already listed as Kekkei Mora so no need to list Shikotsumyaku--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 16:50, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Wha-.../WalksOutOfRoom--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 16:51, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * It's not in her infobox as kekkei mora nor do we have an article for it. Why don't we just add Shikotsumyaku as kekkei mora to her infobox and change her byakugan to kekkei mora as well and call it a day? Same with Hagoromo and his Rinnegan.--Elve Talk Page 16:54, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Because that would be speculation. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:00, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

The very opposite of that actually, it would be writing down information exactly as provided. If the book says Kaguya has Kekkei Mora and no Kekkei Genkai, then us listing her Byakugan as Kekkei Genkai and her Shikotsumyaku as nothing is us doing it wrong--Elve Talk Page 17:02, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

It was not Shikotsumyaku, she used All Killing Ash Bones so we can't really add this Kekkei Genkai--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 17:04, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * All killing ash bones is name of a technique not name of the bloodline ability behind it. There's no reason to assume hers isn't called Shikotsumyaku, considering her Byakugan is called just that--Elve Talk Page 17:08, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Shikotsumyaku is the name of the kekkei genkai, just like Sharingan. Also, she does not possess the Shikotsumyaku and her Byakugan wasn't called a Kekkei Mora, either. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:10, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Considering Jin no Sho lists her as Kekkei Mora user but not Kekkei Genkai, it was indeed. Not to mention her vacuum palm tech is also Kekkei Mora, likely for the same reason Lightning Transmission is Kekkei Genkai.--Elve Talk Page 17:16, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Danzo wasn't listed as a Kuchiyose user either. Manga > databook. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:18, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * An exclusion that is known to be a mistake is one thing, but assuming something is included by error is speculation. I thought you once said that Kaguya's whole body is a Kekkei Mora, now you are backtracking. Look at her techniques:


 * God: Nativity of a World of Trees = Kekkei Mora, most likely because her Mokuton is Kekkei Mora (and don't start again that bullshit about Ten-Tails having Mokuton but not Kaguya please)
 * All-Killing Ash Bones = Kekkei Mora, because her version of Shikotsumyaku is
 * Amenominaka = Kekkei Mora, because it's used through Rinne Sharingan, which is one
 * Infinite Tsukuyomi = Kekkei Mora, because it's used through Rinne Sharingan, which is one
 * Rabbit Hair Needle = Kekkei Mora, presumably because it's used in conjunction with her Byakugan, pretty much stating it to be one
 * Eighty Gods Vacuum Attack = Kekkei more, hence used with her Byakugan which is one as is obvious to me, just like Hyuga Vacuum Palm attacks are Kekkei Genkai because they are used with their Byakugan which is Kekkei Genkai.--Elve Talk Page 17:58, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

So everything is right and is it correct to list her Byakugan as Kekkei Mora because her whole body is Kekkei Mora then everything is, including her eyes.--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 18:05, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Exactly. And this is exactly why I asked Seelentau if he considers himself a hypocrite. On one hand, he makes a forum thread with: "facts guys, we write what's stated" then he goes off to oppose what's stated because he doesn't like it :-/--Elve Talk Page 19:20, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

Bumping this.--Elve Talk Page 08:59, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Err, I maybe said that Kaguya's whole body is a Kekkei Mora, but that was speculation, not a fact. I can't even remember when I said that, but sorry if that wasn't obvious. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:29, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Well you started this and several editors had their opinion known to be that we should write what's stated and that it's not our job to correct Kishi. Call me crazy, but one of those people was Seelentau.--Elve  Talk Page 16:23, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * And what does that have to do with this? • Seelentau 愛 議 16:53, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Exactly that, listing things as stated? Kaguya and Hagoromo have kekkei mora label and no kekkei genkai one, so it should be reflected as such.--Elve Talk Page 16:55, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Databook made A LOT of mistakes, let's not contradict with the manga. Byakugan and Rinnegan were said to be Kekkei Genkai, so they should stay as that.--Omojuze (talk) 17:03, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

"Not our job to correct mistakes" you guys said. Also there's a difference between correcting known/obvious mistakes, like omitted users, natures etc. and ASSUMING that something was included by mistake. I wholeheartedly doubt that this is a mistake, since as I said above, Kaguya's palm and hair techniques are listed both as Kekkei Mora and both use Byakugan, not sure what more evidence do you need.--Elve Talk Page 17:16, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Well I believe Seelentau was not the one who stated that her whole body is Kekkei Mora according to this it was just our assumption, but as our understanding goes there should be a reason to list Hagoromo's Rinnegan as Kekkei Mora and also Kaguya's techniques are already listed as Kekkei Mora except the Byakugan but we shouldn't be really adding this as it could be wrong, or it may be added as a trivia point, the manga stated her Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball as Kekkei Mora, only the databook lists all of her technique, everything is okay now only Byakugan is the problem.--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 17:19, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Elveonora - Wut? Are you suggesting that a genetic trait can be considered kekkei genkai for one person and kekkei mora for the other, even though the usage, appearance and everything about it known to us is the same? Not only that, Rabbit Hair Needle and Eighty Gods Vacuum Attack only use the Byakugan to ensure that the techniques hit the viral points or something. Byakugan is not needed to perform those techniques, and saying that it is would be speculation. Again, how come a thing that looks the same and has the exact same function be one for one person, and different for the other?--Omojuze (talk) 17:26, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not suggesting anything. The databook lists all her techniques as Kekkei Mora, even those listed with Byakugan and she has no Kekkei Genkai user classification, what is here to be argued about exactly?--Elve Talk Page 17:52, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * None of her techniques are listed with Byakugan (Rabbit Hair Needle is listed, but it shouldn't be because it doesn't require the Byakugan).--Omojuze (talk) 18:00, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * None of the Hyuga Gentle Fist techniques "require" the Byakugan, yet they are listed as Kekkei Genkai because they are used in conjunction with it. Same for Lightning Transmission it doesn't require the Sharingan in order to be cast, it requires it in order to be used effectively. Also just to answer the above, Kaguya's ETSB is Kekkei Mora while the TSB isn't, yet they have the same make-up, so there goes an example.--Elve Talk Page 18:09, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Both sides have valid points in this discussion. However, we do need to ensure we're displaying proper information, so if something is missing which should be present, it should be added. --Sajuuk talk 18:38, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

Well, we presently have listed Kaguya's Byakugan as Kekkei Genkai even though Jin no Sho omits her as a Kekkei Genkai user, while lists her as Kekkei Mora user. Her techniques which are used with Byakugan are also listed as Kekkei Mora. Long story short, her Byakugan should be listed as Kekkei Mora even though we may not like it/it doesn't make sense to us. Factual information > subjective feelings.--Elve Talk Page 18:54, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * so.... what? We just create an article called "Kaguya's Byakugan" and list it as a KKM? Ha. I kid, I kid. Though honestly, Hagoromo listed as a KKM user and not a KKG user complicates things as well... -- WindStar7125 (talk | contribs) 19:02, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * No, we just put Byakugan into "kekkei mora" part of the infobox in Kaguya's case and Rinnegan in Hagoromo's and mention in Byakugan and Rinnegan articles that theirs are somehow Kekkei Mora, that's all.--Elve Talk Page 19:04, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Affirming that Hagoromo's Rinnegan is a KKM? Hell, I did the same with his TSB, but that was rejected by Seelentau as well. -- WindStar7125 (talk | contribs) 19:07, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * TSB isn't listed as Kekkei Mora unless I'm mistaken, only ETSB is so it isn't it.--Elve Talk Page 19:28, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Neither is the Rinnegan nor Byakugan. But their users are. Also, the databook stated that Kaguya doesn't have Shikotsumyaku, but that Shikotsumyaku is a derived technique of her ability to manipulate her bone structure (got that from FF-Suzaku, in case you were wondering). -- WindStar7125 (talk | contribs) 19:31, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

But we should call it something. It's genetic yet it isn't in her kekkei part of infobox. That's why I proposed listing her as Kekkei Mora Shikotsumyaku user, since that's better than "Kaguya's bone powers" or something.--Elve Talk Page 20:12, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

Just throwing this out there, but maybe Kekkei Mora is just an inclusive term. It does use inclusive wording. Like, you don't have to say "he's got kekkei mora and kekkei genkai" because just saying "he's got kekkei mora" already tells the whole story. Or maybe, as suggested elsewhere, his traits are kekkei mora because they're a more "pure" version of whatever was passed down to later generations. Frankly, I think it would actually probably be easier to just do what the databooks do and make the infoboxes more ambigious. Add "Kekkei Genkai," "Kekkei Tota," "Kekkei Mora," and "Summoner" to the classification section, like Sage and Jinchuriki (which is what the databook does). Then figure out a different way to list their unique genetic mutations. FF-Suzaku (talk) 15:00, February 8, 2015 (UTC)
 * In the end it would achieve the same thing as I propose and they oppose, Kaguya and Hagoromo would be listed only as Kekkei Mora users.--Elve Talk Page 15:48, February 8, 2015 (UTC)
 * Done, Elveonora. (At least, his Rinnegan is a KKM now, just as DB4 listed him as a KKM user.)  ★   WS7125 [Mod]WindStar7125 Task.svgWindStar7125's Task.svg 23:13, March 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * I thought I had already done that?--Elve Talk Page 20:19, March 2, 2015 (UTC)

Sharingan 2
It was said Indra inherited his father's eyes, but he didn't inherit the Rinnegan, so Hagoromo must have had the Sharingan too?--Elve Talk Page 06:28, July 9, 2015 (UTC)

It wasn't meant to be taken literal, by eyes it meant his dojutsu, the Sharingan, which is a devolved form of Rinnegan. Hagoromo has, in every case, always been depicted with nothing more than Rinnegan, even stated to be born with it I believe. Kaguya's Rinne Sharingan devolved into her son's Rinnegan, which devolved into his son's Sharingan. His Rinnegan is also a Kekkei Mora, not Kekkei Genkai, so I'm sure he always had it. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 06:32, July 9, 2015 (UTC)
 * Who has ever said Rinnegan devolved into Sharingan? Rinne Sharingan devolved into Rinnegan as you say, hence it doesn't make sense. It's more like Rinne Sharingan split into Rinnegan and Sharingan, like sibling doujutsu instead of parent-child doujutsu.--Elve Talk Page 11:12, July 9, 2015 (UTC)
 * He didn't inherit his eyes, he inherited his "eyes". • Seelentau 愛 議 11:41, July 9, 2015 (UTC)
 * Is "eyes" what the manga/databook said or is it just us using "eyes" instead of eyes. So are you saing super powered Sharingan turned into Rinnegan to turn into depowered Sharingan? Makes more sense that Rinne Sharingan split into both. But that again, even if I'm right, that doesn't mean Hagoromo had Sharingan because it might have been recessive genes for him, hmph.--Elve Talk Page 12:38, July 9, 2015 (UTC)
 * "Eyes" is what the manga said. It also said "body" for Asura. Do you really think Asura runs around in Hagoromo's own body? • Seelentau 愛 議 13:00, July 9, 2015 (UTC)

The Rinne Sharingan is the origin of both of Rinnegan and Sharingan, and is superior to them both. Kaguya had Rinne Sharingan, her son had Rinnegan, and her grandson had Sharingan. Basically, the "eyes" got weaker with each generation until Indra had a whole clan of Sharingan using descendants. Hagoromo has the genes for it, or else he couldn't pass it on, but I highly doubt he had it himself. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 15:41, July 9, 2015 (UTC)

Incorrect anime apperiance
Guys who did edits on Hago's apperiance, i think you jumping the gun here: If you look at Hagoromo rinnegan tattoo on his forehead and his hairs in flashback from same shippuden episode(the one about Asura and Indra) or flashback where he was born you will see that he has same red hair color and in Naruto subconscious Hagoromo's apperiance is different because of environment light effect(color filter) here and here  we can see how he really looks like. So this picture that used in Hagoromo's toolbox is incorrect as well as this line "He also had a red (purple in the anime) Rinnegan marking in the centre of his forehead" from apperiance section. ./ Rage gtx (talk) 07:24, July 29, 2015 (UTC)

Infobox Image
In the last, Hagoromo was depicted as he was in the manga, so whats more important, quality or correct depiction? --Sarutobii2 (talk) 01:03, July 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * I think both are important, but the difference in "correct depiction" is nothing compared to the difference in quality in regards to those two pics. The current picture is far better in my opinion.--Mina [[Image:Hatake Symbol.svg|20px]] talk 01:08, July 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * Im fine with either. Just noticed in the current image, Hagoromo is missing a neck and his head is seamlessly floating XD --Sarutobii2 (talk) 01:17, July 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * Holy cow I didn't notice that 'til you brought it up. xD--Mina [[Image:Hatake Symbol.svg|20px]] talk 01:20, July 30, 2015 (UTC)

Coffin Seal
just had this question...if he didn't have it before sealing his mother as shown in chapter 670 page 11 & created it after the sealing, then why does he still have it on his back even though he doesn't have the jubi in him anymore... --DARK ZERO--talk 21:04, August 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * The magatama/Rinnegan thing isn't that technique's seal. It's a symbol of the Six Paths Senjutsu. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:14, August 1, 2015 (UTC)

so then why didn't he have it before sealing his mother? --DARK ZERO--talk 21:17, August 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * Because he didn't have the Six Paths Senjutsu before. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:19, August 1, 2015 (UTC)

whether it's the coffin seal or SPS the question remains the same...why does he still have it after loosing the jubi...& 1 more thing I noticed is that when he was talking about splitting the jubi's chakra the panel was zoomed on this mark...as the 9 tomoe represents the 9 TBs...but if this is the case then he should have had this mark after the splitting...not after the jubi's sealing...& also 1more thing...if I remember correctly zetsu said that not even hagoromo knew that the jubi was shinju+kaguya, but when hagoromo was talking to naruto after the battle of kaguya Vs team 7, he sounded like he knew it way before all of this...he even said how did naruto feel fighting his mother & shit like that...too much inconsistencies :|... --DARK ZERO--talk 21:28, August 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * Don't you think it's plausible that Hogoromo was simply wearing real clothing...? Markings don't appear and disappear from real clothing unless the owner is going in and out of chakra modes. Since I don't see the characteristic chakra "flame" coming off Hagoromo's form I don't think he's in one, therein meaning that those markings are a part of his clothing. --Atrix471 (talk) 21:33, August 1, 2015 (UTC)

but he still has the TSBs & the flight ability :|....he should've lost all of these when he farted the jubi out of him...whether it's the coffin seal or the SPS, he should have lost it...why does he still have it...unless he had it/them from the beginning...but we don't have any proof for that matter except that he HAD the TSB before sealing his mother...donno how many though...not to mention the six paths yang mark which god knows where the hell he got that from or had that too by himself... --DARK ZERO--talk 06:56, September 17, 2015 (UTC)
 * Jinchūriki who have their tailed beast extracted keep some of the powers they had due to the jinchūriki status (see Gaara's sand control). It sounds likely that Hagoromo no longer needs to be the Ten-Tails' jinchūriki in order to use the Six Paths Senjutsu, considering how his chakra was enough to grant Naruto the Six Paths Sage Mode.--JOA2007:26, September 17, 2015 (UTC)
 * Or he got it genetically being a son and all, considering Hamura too had TSB and wasn't jinchuuriki.--Elve Talk Page 10:27, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

Moniker
I know this was already brought up before, but if we're going to use more accurate and consistent translations with the episodes, shouldn't we follow suit with Hagoromo's moniker? What I mean is, shouldn't we use "Sage of Six Paths" rather than "Sage of the Six Paths", since the former is a bit more accurate and consistent? 18:26, December 27, 2015 (UTC)
 * Bump. 19:08, January 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm for it.--JouXIII (talk) 20:26, January 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * My opinion hasn't changed as well. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:31, January 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * OK. I figured we were only using "Sage of the Six Paths" because that's what the English (Crunchyroll, I presume) subs officially use, but those are needless now that we no longer use that even for episode titles in favor of more accurate translations. 23:23, January 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * This is one of those topics that have been around so long I no longer care. Also, if the "the" is being dropped, better ask someone to run a bot. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:17, January 17, 2016 (UTC)

Sure. Will do. 05:47, January 17, 2016 (UTC)

Bit late I realize, but "the", though technically unnecessary per the Japanese, provides clarity to the English. Establishes that "Six Paths" is a thing in itself and not simply the Sage's numerical value of Paths. One concern from the previous discussion was that we don't know what the "Six Paths" are. That's obviously not changed, but we've got enough examples to know it's some kind of subject on its own and we've also not seen evidence of "Five Paths" or etc. ~SnapperTo 18:05, February 6, 2016 (UTC)
 * I actually agree with Snapper2 on the point of removing the word "the" and disagree entirely with the rather arbitrary change which was made with almost no consensus. It may not be necessary in Japanese, but it's part of proper English to use "the" when referring to people's nicknames (I'm pretty sure many of the moniker's used on the wiki use "the" for that reason). As it stands, "Sage of Six Paths" doesn't flow and sounds very abrupt, compared to the more natural flow of "Sage of the Six Paths", but I suspect it won't be changed back any time soon. --SuperSajuuk (talk) 18:15, February 6, 2016 (UTC)