Talk:Hashirama Senju

plotholes and errors?
I remember ShounenSuki sensei stating that Tsunade was born after Hashirama's death, this also makes sense. Konoha exists 65 years, Tsunade is 54, let's say she was 4 during Hashi's gambling flashback. Unless he wears TONS OF MAKEUP, that dude should look, well... quite older. But that's the first part of the problem... He clashed with Madara 80 years prior for the first time, let's say he was circa 18 at the time. If he didn't die, he would have been at least (give or take) 100 years old now, but we settle on 98. Now, 98-50=48... so you want to tell me, Hashirama died as 48 years old but is still damn handsome? Remember the anime-only picture with him and "Mito" holding Tsunade, that was agreed upon not to be canon? Well, brace yourself, cause it's not that farfetched now O_O Talk about eternal youth, but then happy Mito, poor Hashi T_T Kudos to the animation team ^_

The second part of the problem is, that he was circa 34 during the founding of Konoha, Tsunade has been born when he was 44. But Tobirama was already Hokage 5 years after the founding. Why did he give up so early on his Kage position and bothered to die 9-10 years later? (Note: Tobirama becoming Hokage before Hashirama's death is confirmed by a databook, but so short reign?) Unless that damn bully Tobirama kicked his butt for Madara incident and took his Kage hat by force ;D That also makes you wonder why he didn't participate in the 1st SWW, unless Tobirama died before Hashirama, yeah, I'm sure Hashi was already dead as of the war, but then again, the Tsunade gambling couldn't happen and Suki sensei is right, thus Kishi screwed up.--Elveonora (talk) 16:34, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Well since the Obito reveal, things confirmed in the databooks are getting more and more screwed over. Though the inconsistency I noticed was Suigetsu kept referring to Hashirama as the God of Shinobi, wasn't that Hiruzen's title? Also it's not that far fetched that Hashirama would look good for his age. as a ninja he likely exercises often, he doesn't seem to be a smoker like Hiruzen and most of all, if the Uzumaki have longevity just being related to the Senju and his Granddaughter uses medical techniques to look about 30, I don't see how a guy who can literally sprout life from every pore can't look ten years younger than he should be at the founding of Konoha. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 17:27, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Dont you think you're looking perhaps a little too deeply into this ? I'm sure Kishimoto will go into the early days of Konaha soon. Hashi has only just come into play, chill out and see where it goes :) --Keep Calm And Call Kakashi (talk) 17:32, February 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * Ummm, yeah, gonna have to agree with Kakashi on this one. There are even manga panels showing Hashirama holding a young Tsunade years before this chapter came out. Nothing was skewered here. It doesn't matter if him giving his title up doesn't make sense to you. That's obviously what he did. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:45, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

@Hawk, then his youthful appearance should be noted. @@Kakashi&Fox, so Tobirama barely seen Tsunade but Hashirama outlived him to gamble with her? Sure, why not. Also can you provide those manga panels? I remember Suki stating it was an anime mistake as she was born afterwards--Elveonora (talk) 18:58, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Im going to make my point again and say before we discuss this further we should wait for Kishimoto to elaborate on the story. The guy isnt an idiot and there have been lots of so called plot "loopholes" which have turned out to be plot twists or explained. --Keep Calm And Call Kakashi (talk) 19:02, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Not really, look at Zabuza, Anko, Asuma, Hayate, Ibiki and some other characters. Their ages and events contradict the official timeline (dates from manga and databooks) I just find it weird that Hashi looks so young despite being pretty much a grandpa and him outliving Tobirama and that he didn't participate in the war he had caused. Also Tobirama wouldn't declare Hiruzen a Hokage with Hashirama still alive I guess--Elveonora (talk) 19:16, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

With the age looking thing we can safely assume he pulled the same thing as Tsunade. With the rest bear in mind that the Senju had incredible amounts of Life force (Yang chakra) therefore we can assume they live for a hell of a long time. Look at the Third Hokage he was incredibly powerful at the age of 67 and he wasn't even Senju!--Keep Calm And Call Kakashi (talk) 19:26, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Remember the Senjū are related to the Uzumaki, and the Uzumaki have powerful life forces and vitality. Besides, this is a Manga, it's not gonna follow real world logic. Also just because they were different ages doesn't mean they can't be in Chūnin Selection Exams together, look at Team Guy they were in the Chūnin Exams together and they were a year apart, and there were even 20 something yr olds in those same Chūnin Examinations. Kakashi awas a graduated the academy by 6 and became a Jōnin by 13, ageis very wierd in Naruto.71.71.58.231 (talk) 19:30, February 5, 2013 (UTC) Yomiko-chan

I don't think Yang chakra was ever stated to be Life Force, also Hiruzen died at 69. Hashi's appearance isn't THAT much of a problem, but still important and (can't recall the damn word now... strange) to be noted. The problem lies especially with him holding Tsunade and time of death @Yomiko, that is being taken into consideration, and no, Kakashi became Jounin at 9--Elveonora (talk) 19:34, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

@Elveonora: Yes, life force is essentially yang chakra I refer back to when Naruto's nine tails form makes Yamato's wood grow (LOL) the nine tails only has yang chakra due to Minato's sealing. I think the subtext is that the Senju inherited the sage of 6 paths life force (yang) and the Uchiha inherited his spiritual energy (yin) thats why they inherently can pull some bad ass genjutsu. Now that's cleared up, yes I understand that it may all seem a bit hazy but before we start making wild assumptions about our beloved Hashi we should wait a couple of chapters and return to this argument if nothing is revealed :) --Keep Calm And Call Kakashi (talk) 19:42, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Well, the only arguments present are offtopic and unrelated to this issue, so in short, all we need is the promised manga shot of Hashi holding Tsunade, and if it doesn't exist (which I think) then a source for Suki's statement. If it was just his assumption, then it should be investigated further, but if there's canonical proof behind the statement of her being born after his death, then I think it's pretty much justified to list as an error in trivia or elsewhere.--Elveonora (talk) 19:51, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * Wow, 9? That really is crazy.71.71.58.231 (talk) 19:56, February 5, 2013 (UTC) Yomiko-chan

Kakashi became a Jonin at 13. Otherwise we are gonna need to make some changes to his article. Why are people saying Hashi outlived Tobi? Is it because he wasn't confused about Hiruzen being Hokage? Lets not forget he saw the dude in his old age in Sand-Sound Invasion and we don't know if Hashi and Tobirama had discussed together the Hokage succession before dying off officially way back then, finally giving the title with the Kinkaku Force incident.Umishiru (talk) 19:59, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Nobody said anything about Tobi confusion or the gold and silver brothers. --Keep Calm And Call Kakashi (talk) 20:02, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Changes done, please now stay on topic, we can take this elsewhere. EDIT: sorry for not answering your question, because Tobirama barely lived to see 2 years old Tsunade while Hashirama did long enough to "spoil her and teach her gambling" not to mention he isn't known to have participated in the 1st Shinobi World War and also the Hiruzen promotion reason, everything is stated above--Elveonora (talk) 20:05, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

I was on topic. You guys are the ones who briefly brought up Kakashi's Jonin promotion age with you using another users name in an attempt to rubber stamp your opinion. I wonder if you actually read my post as it is responding to points brought up in the discussion. Since this is how I am being treated, I'll leave the discussion.Umishiru (talk) 20:07, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

@Umishiru you remind me of the Uchiha you know being discriminated against and all ..... --Keep Calm And Call Kakashi (talk) 20:11, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

I wanted to open a discussion on this, but okay, you guys were faster. So, first of all, Kakashi was 9 years old when he became Jōnin. I think we've discussed this enough. This said, Hashirama meeting Tsunade is impossible:
 * 48-45 years prior to Naruto's birth: Konohagakure was founded
 * 48-43 years: Hashirama dies after the village just bloomed, but gives Tobirama the Hokage title
 * 43 years: Tobirama founds the police
 * 38 years: Tsunade is born

See? It was said that Hashirama died not short after the village was established, but not before he gave his title to Tobirama, who then founded the police. Tsunade could've never met him. Seelentau 愛議 16:38, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

@Seelentau. Where has the date of the founding of the village been stated ?. --Keep Calm And Call Kakashi (talk) 18:24, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Databook I, p. 116-117 and fanbook I, p. 18 and 53 (in the Japanese version, the German pages differ) say the founding of Konoha was ~60 years ago. 60-12=48. So the founding happened ~48 years ago, maybe earlier, because fanbook 2 still says 60 years, even though three or four years have passed. Seelentau 愛議 18:41, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

I think this may be wrong as there a few scenes where Hiruzen Sarutobi is a young boy stood next to both Hokages. He looked around 8 at the time so I would reckon the village is older. However if you get bogged down in all these details it does ruin the experience when watching/reading Naruto.--Keep Calm And Call Kakashi (talk) 19:05, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Tobirama wears the forehead protector on that picture, meaning Konohagakure existed already. Seelentau 愛議 19:28, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for support Seelentau ^_ talk about time paradox o_o Really, when bully Tobirama died, Tsunade was circa 2 years old, Hashirama surely died before Tobirama, unless he taught a fetus gambling habits or something. At the time Hiruzen became Tsunade's teacher, he was 24 years old and the Kinkaku Force stuff happened circa 4-5 years earlier. We know Hashi passed on his hat to Tobirama before dying, but surely not almost 10 years before, not to mention I wouldn't say a decade is "shortly" thus it's an error, not to mention as I said, if he was still alive, he would have fought in the war and took his hat back after his brother's death. I know Kishimoto is just a human, but sometimes it appears fans pay more attention to things than he does. It seems like the gambling stuff was just a random idea from nowhere to make a joke about Tsunade and portray him as "Narutoish" an idiot I mean; --Elveonora (talk) 20:48, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

This is all good, but it isn't an "error", it is a plothole created from previous information given, but what is the point of this discussion when there's nothing we can do about it? I mean, sure you guys can hope dates change or what not, but this is as futile as saying that Kakashi's classmates shouldn't have been his classmates. We need to understand that Kishimoto isn't perfect and this isn't a history lesson so stuff like this will always happen.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 20:58, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

I like history lessons and I'm a nerd ._. anyways, as you may guess, I'd like it to be noted in trivia. Something simple like "he died before Tsunade's birth, so couldn't have spoiled her" should do--Elveonora (talk) 21:08, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * But in the chapter he said he did it. You see what I mean, there is no "he could never have done it".--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 21:13, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it's manga contradicting databooks, not manga contradicting earlier manga chapters, but it's written by the same dude, or not? I doesn't matter that the general fandom doesn't know nor care, but we are wiki editors and should note details I think--Elveonora (talk) 21:26, February 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes but you're confusing fandom following details compared to an actual story writer. At best, the only that can be done is a mention of it the same way we did for the Kakashi classmate info.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 21:33, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, my intention all along isn't to criticize him (even if I sound unfair when talking about Kishi sometimes) but to point inconsistencies in his work. Stating someone mistaken isn't rude, I think, it's pointing out facts, not someone's flaws--Elveonora (talk) 21:49, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

I actually thought the fanbooks and databooks were written by someone else? Just with his over sight? Is that wrong then?
 * Kishimoto is credited as the author of those books. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:18, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

68-60=8 so Hiruzen was 8 when Konoha was founded and most likely was being mentored by Tobirama and Hashirama shortly after that. Hiruzen was 18 at Tsunades Birth and 24 when he became her Jonin sensei. Hashi was alive with Tsunade at least until Tsunade was 3-4 and Hiruzen was 21-22, then he died and Tobirama was Hokage. Now we know you have to be a Jonin to get assigned a team and Tsunade and her team became Genin at 6... so right when they became Genin Hiruzen was still Jonin which means he was not Hokage until at least somewhere in his 24th year of life, don't assume the photo of them with Hiruzen when he had his facial hair was when they were 6.. we don't know how long the were Genin. So therefor Tobirama died at the latest when Hiruzen was 23 and Tsunade was 5. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 03:48, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

and again, if we disregard chapter 599 then Kakashi would be a Jonin at 9, but if we include chapter 599 then he was a 11 year old Jonin. So stop going around stating it a fact Elve, not until databook 4 comes out will we know which way it goes ItachiWasAHero (talk) 03:50, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

And another thing, the ages for Hashi and Tobirama were never given, so stop assuming. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 04:01, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

What's your point? Nothing you wrote is anything new. Also nowhere it's said that a Kage can't teach a team.--Elveonora (talk) 13:01, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

Your smart ass replies are not needed around here. Yes it is true that it isn't stated they can't have a team. But being confound to an office to do paper work all the time, and going to meetings and what not.. I severely doubt any Kages would have a whole team. It has been shown that a Kage can mentor a single student such as Hiruzen with Hashi/Tobirama, Deidara with Onoki, Gaara with his Father and etc.. but it was NEVER proven any actual Kages have taken on any teams for themselves. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 02:51, June 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * Except Tobirama did have a team, Deidara never trained under Onoki and Gaara was never trained by his father; in fact his father spent like what, close to a decade trying to kill him.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 06:31, June 9, 2013 (UTC)

Smart ass replies? You really should check out some professional help for your own sake. It was not "smart ass" I just didn't get your point at all. Also to clarify now that we are at it: Congratulations for your lack of logic, people usually age over time, not get better looking.--Elveonora (talk) 12:59, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * As Ultimate said, Team Tobirama. Hiruzen was officially Tobirama's student. Hashirama also trained him, but in a similar manner to Jiraiya taking care of Naruto.
 * I believe it has been stated somewhere that Ohnoki was Deidara's sensei, but I remember people having troubles finding reference or something?
 * In the anime at least, Gaara said his father taught him many forbidden techniques. But that's not student-teacher/jounin commander-genin team relationship. Baki was his sensei.
 * Re-checking your post again, is your point an attempt on speculation to prove a point on Hiruzen being possibly younger despite looking older when teaching to-be Sannin and when looking younger (when Tobirama died) him being in fact older?

I said don't assume the pictures of him with the Genin Sannins with brown facial hair was when he was 24, we don't know how long they were Genin.. Itachi basically looks the same at 21 that he did at 13. So don't assume they were kids or teens in the chapter that Saru was made Kage and Tobirama sacrificed himself for them. Also Deidara looks 15.... but he is 19. Yagura was an adult... but looks 12-13. Roshi was an old man, but looked 40 max. They were small and adults. Your assumptions and presumptions don't hold any ground here. At all. 96.241.55.117 (talk) 03:42, June 10, 2013 (UTC)

Error?
Wait, if Hashirama was able to break the binding of theimpure world resurrection so easily this time, why didn't he do it the first time he was resurrected!?!?!?!?--72.135.19.126 (talk) 03:53, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

That um..... that's a pretty good point.71.71.58.231 (talk) 04:05, February 14, 2013 (UTC) Yomiko-chan

Difference in if they had the controlling tags in them or not. Naito Kiyami (talk) 06:05, February 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * They weren't resurrected with their full power during the first time (Chapter 620, Pg12).--~ Ultimate  Supreme  06:08, February 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * That makes sense, cos no matter how strong Hiru was, he shouldn't have been able to beat Hashi and Tobi together. 87.254.80.51 (talk) 23:03, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

Hashirama's Cells
Recently, my edits of Hashirama's unique abilities were deleted; saying that it was made up. But if you recall, it was clearly said that Hashirama's cells alone gave various individuals one kind of enhancement or another. Saying its made up is like saying Hashirama had no power of his own, only people who took his cells. Furthermore, Hashirama was stated to represent one half of the Six Path Sage's power; namely his physical body and life force. That being said, please allow me to restore my edit.Steveo920, 1:48, February 14, 2013
 * When was all that you wrote, shown?--~ Ultimate  Supreme  06:57, February 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * Again, it was stated that various characters enhanced themselves through Hashirama's cells to gain even a portion of his powers. Yamato and Danzo gained the Wood Release purely through Hashirama's cells, Madara extended his life through the cells, and Obito gained regenerative powers through Hashirama's cells. Steveo920, 2:57, February 14, 2013

Rashomon Gates.
As we've in this chapter 621, our beloved First Hokage can use the Rashomon Gates, in his case, the largest version seen so far. Now for the key question...can he use the lesser versions of it? I believe so...if he can bring out five, more than likely he can bring out three or even just one. Opinions and thoughts are appreciated. Darksusanoo (talk) 13:22, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

Logically. One who can use 1000 clones can also do 1 clone--Elveonora (talk) 13:33, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

@TheUltimate3, we list Oro as a user of Summoning: Rashōmon as well, so why shouldn't we list Hashi as a user of three and one gates respectively?--Elveonora (talk) 13:47, February 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * Because I didn't know Orochimaru used the One Gate.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:50, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

He actually didn't, I think(at least I don't recall it). He is being listed for the same reasons as users of Multiple Shadow Clone Technique automatically get it's lesser form, nope?--Elveonora (talk) 13:57, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Pretty much yeah. Darksusanoo (talk) 13:59, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * I thought orochimaru is listened because Sakon said something like "this technique which originally belongs to orochimaru-sama...." after he used it with his brother.87.188.251.131 (talk) 18:59, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

Shouldn't it be edited to show that Hashirama summoned 5 gates instead of three?--JUP173R (talk) 20:13, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * It is edited...sometimes recently created techniques take time to show up on character infoboxes. Darksusanoo (talk) 20:26, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok I would like to ask some of the sempai's to pay attention to this discussion, as we need consensus. Darksusanoo (talk) 23:10, February 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Orochimaru is listed as using just one gate because as far as I recall, Sakon mentioned Orochimary having thought it to him, or something along those lines. He gave Oro credit for using it. Now, on whether Hashirama can use one or three gates, this is the very same discussion I had with another user regarding Madara, Fire Release: Dragon Flame Release Song Technique and Fire Release: Great Dragon Fire Technique. I was for listing Madara as a user of both techniques, since DFRS is simply put five GDFs fired at once. The point was raised that chronologically, DFRS came first, so it's within the realm of possibility of that being the original conceptualised technique, with GDF being developed later as a lesser form of the technique. I personally don't like it, as I believe the clone example someone used above to explain it perfectly, but I find the reasoning used valid enough to live with, so until someone says that the basic version is the original technique, and the advanced one is the derived one, I think they can be listed as related. At the moment, Madara is listed as using DFRS, that technique is listed as parent to GDF, which Madara is not listed as a user of. In a less canon example, Eight Trigrams Thirty Two Palms is derived from Sixty Four Palms, but it's a lesser version of it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:34, February 20, 2013 (UTC)

God of Shinobi
Why does the page refer to Hashirama by this title?, I don't recall anyone calling him it at any point. TricksterKing (talk) 05:32, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

Suigetsu did like two chapters ago.--Yomiko-chan (talk) 05:35, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

Dunno how I missed that. TricksterKing (talk) 05:37, February 22, 2013 (UTC)

Just an ability-wise question, should not It be worth mentioning that he might be strongest member that the Senju clan has ever produced, and that Hashirama emerged unharmed after everyone of his battles with Madara Uchiha, including their final battle?--JustaNobody (talk) 21:17, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Unless it's been stated that he is the strongest ever senju, we won't add it. Him surviving all his battles with Madara is already stated and unless it's said that he didn't get hurt at all, it's speculation to say he was unharmed during the fights with Madara, also not really worth mentioning since he is already mentioned as the winner of all the fights. TricksterKing (talk) 22:22, June 7, 2013 (UTC)

I see, point taken and noted.--JustaNobody (talk) 22:28, June 7, 2013 (UTC)

Because I read and through the most recent chapters and I saw that he emerged unharmed from his final battle with Madara Uchiha, I do not want to spoil anything it's just that Madara struck down a Wood Release clone, in their final battle which enabled Hashirama to strike him, from behind without Madara noticing until it was too late, when shown after that, Hashirama was shown unscratched. That's all I am so very sorry for spoiling it for you.--JustaNobody (talk) 22:34, June 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think that would just be called surviving, unharmed would mean that he took no damage at all during the battle. TricksterKing (talk) 22:55, June 7, 2013 (UTC)

The thing is he did emerge unharmed with out any scratches at all, with only a missing sandal, and a slightly damaged sleeve on one side, no scratches so surely that would be worth mentioning under his abilities and powers.--JustaNobody (talk) 00:38, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

My fault it turns out he lost an entire section of sleeve and armor on one side and his one arm slightly burned, during his final battle with Madara, but otherwise no serious injuries.--JustaNobody (talk) 02:14, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

Are those last things regarding Madara and Hashirama's final battle worth mentioning under Hashirama's abilities and powers?--JustaNobody (talk) 02:29, June 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd say they aren't worth mentioning, but you could try to put them there and see if they get reverted or not. TricksterKing (talk) 14:10, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

Speculation, Hashirama has some healing no jutsu, doesn't mean he left unharmed each time, quite the opposite, we see him all bloody in flashbacks at least once. The time before their final battle after Izuna's death, it wasn't 1v1, Tobirama and dozen other Senju were there along with Hashirama to defeat Madara and at VOTE he let himself be defeated--Elveonora (talk) 15:08, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

Family
So is there a reason why his brother, Tobirama, isn't catalogued with his family? Scratch that, none of his brothers are added to the family section. Do you guys just not like the idea of Hashirama having siblings? 76.235.4.251 (talk) 07:44, March 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Heavens no! Semantics take a while to bridge the relations correctly because there is now a parent in common whose article was recently renamed, the information is no longer manually listed. Please bear with us, as it updates.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 08:27, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

Oh, updates. K. Thnx for response. 76.235.4.251 (talk) 09:24, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

Kawarama isn't his brother that needs to be removed.--Anamantiumninja (talk) 02:08, April 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * This is already discussed at length on Kawarama's page and until it's proven false, it stays. Learn to read between the lines.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 02:42, April 11, 2013 (UTC)

No, it should be removed until proven true otherwise you just added information that isn't true because its what you think.--Anamantiumninja (talk) 10:44, April 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * Why wouldn't he be Hashi's bro? ~IndxcvNovelist (talk 10:56, April 11, 2013 (UTC)

He could be but they never said or called him brother. So it should be removed until proven true.--Anamantiumninja (talk) 11:03, April 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Again, not going to change. It was implied that Kawarama was his brother. Apart from the fact that he looks exactly like them, when Madara spoke of his brothers, Hashirama remembered Itama and Kawarama, why would it be necessary to even bring Kawarama back into the story and at that point, if we weren't supposed to realise that he was their brother as well? --Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 12:27, April 11, 2013 (UTC)

Not to mention his name also ends with "rama"--Elveonora (talk) 12:48, April 11, 2013 (UTC)

I find this fact to be very funny. But what about Toka Senju. What's her relationship to him? Animaster334 (talk) 12:54, April 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * So far, she's only been mentioned to be a close confidant of Hashirama's, and his relative obviously. What does she have to do with anything? Not everything in a series is going to be thrown out into your face, and I know too much can be put into subtleties, but at first we weren't going to list him as a broher but that flashback pretty much concreted the fact that he's their brother. I mean look at them, they look like a perfect set.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 13:04, April 11, 2013 (UTC)

If people are still too dumb to think for themselves, stubborn and ignorant, perhaps we should do the same as with Konan's person of god jutsu and put up a warning up there--Elveonora (talk) 13:07, April 11, 2013 (UTC)

Still, is it a common thing that nearly all the males end with "-rama" in the Senju clan if they're males? I heard this on a forum. Animaster334 (talk) 13:11, April 11, 2013 (UTC)

Nawaki, Butsuma don't for example--Elveonora (talk) 13:13, April 11, 2013 (UTC)

@vCerez365, did you guys ever consider the fact they could be cousins. Cousins can close like brothers, my cousin is like my brother. The manga didn't concrete the fact they were brothers.--Anamantiumninja (talk) 19:00, April 11, 2013 (UTC)

The pre-Konoha male Senju end in "-ma", not "-rama". Look at the kanji for their name. The "ra" is just a coincidence between Hashirama, Tobirama and Kawarama, from the other kanji in their names. Nawaki is post-Konoha. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:14, April 12, 2013 (UTC)

Cousin is much more speculative than brother, also I doubt that his uncle was responsible for him--Elveonora (talk) 14:14, April 12, 2013 (UTC)

We don't know if Botsuma was responsible for him.--Anamantiumninja (talk) 16:34, April 14, 2013 (UTC)

At least put presumably --Anamantiumninja (talk) 23:09, April 19, 2013 (UTC)

Missing Jutsus
There are some jutsus by Hashirama Senju that weren't added to his Jutsu section on his profile page :

Wood Clone Technique (Manga only) Wood Release: Wood Locking Wall (Anime only) Bringer-of-Darkness Technique (Manga only) Chakra Sensing Technique (Manga only) Contract Seal (Anime only)
 * Should be fixed, let me know if you see any other problems. — S im A nt 22:35, May 9, 2013 (UTC)

More Missing Jutsus & Tool
I found more Jutsus by Hashirama Senju that weren't added too and here they are :

Wood Release: Wood Dragon Technique - Sage Art: Wood Release: True Several Thousand Hands - Wood Clone Technique (Manga only) - Wood Release: Advent of a World of Flowering Trees - Wood Release: Hōbi Technique

Tools :

Scroll of Seals

P.S It seems when new stuff are added to the infobox, It leads to delete the older existed stuff there because i'm pretty sure the Jutsus and tool i mentioned where already there and existed when i checked yesterday.--2.50.216.33 (talk) 08:03, May 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * This is a known issue; read the homepage.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 11:36, May 10, 2013 (UTC)

So umm.. Can someone add those missing jutsus to his section ?--
 * Let me try this again. The techniques and tools are there. The list is NOT working properly.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 12:08, May 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * The problem that is that every time a page with multivalued properties is saved, the values themselves alternate in being able to be returned as paramaters by the system but can still be searched by. The labels themselves are saved and that is why they all can be seen when you click the Jutsu header. — S im A nt 20:51, May 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, what SimAnt said, just not with fancy words like multivalalaled.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 04:39, May 11, 2013 (UTC)

THE strongest?
I found a small contradiction: In the personality section Hashirama is described as "the man known as the most powerful shinobi to have ever lived". Although he is indeed one of the most powerful shinobi, he is not THE most powerful, since it has been stated that Hiruzen was the strongest of the 5 Hokage, and both of them arguably pale in comparison to the Sage of the Six Paths (does he count?). It should be written as "ONE of the most powerful shinobi to have ever lived" instead. (Xurono (talk) 04:26, May 14, 2013 (UTC))
 * Fixed.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 12:37, May 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Can i correct Hashirama is by far the strongest as all the kage past and present are no match for madara and hashirama is the only one who can defeat madara, goes to show that he really was the strongest so strong that madara even tried to amplify his power by using hashirama's cells that shows that he wouldn't even bother with other kage only hashirama and hashirama captured all the tailed beasts something hiruzen obviously could not do --ROOT 根 (talk) 16:52, May 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * I still believe Hiruzen has been retconned out of being the strongest Kage, can't see him beating full-strength Hashirama even in his youth--Elveonora (talk) 16:56, May 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with you both, just compared him with the information already given before the war; far better to just outright admit there was a retcon it terms of strenght than just initiate a pointless argument of "BUT HE WAS OLD!", "BUT ORO´S EDO WAS RESTRAINING HIM!", etc. Just hope Kishi makes Hiruzen at least "live" up to his title as the God of Shinobi to correct this contradiction; Yet the Sage is still THE strongest. (I KNOW THIS IS NOT A FORUM) Honestly, the "fairy tale strenght" is impossible to call as such; Hiruzen knew Hashirama and his power first hand (and by extension, the Konoha elders and even Danzou), thus he had knowledge of and was able to counter most of the attacks during the fight; he didn´t learn all that of a fairy tale. Just another contradiction, yet this one is impossible to correct since it was stated in the manga, right?--(Xurono (talk) 04:12, May 15, 2013 (UTC))
 * It does not matter whether or not he is the strongest shinobi, the reference for the information hailed him only as the God of Shinobi, nothing more. It was edited to reflect that.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 05:05, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Physical strength, reflexes, worth mentioning etc?
Should Hashirama's speed, reflexes, and strength be mentioned under his abilities & powers be worth mentioning, as he shown himself to be capable of wielding large and heavy tools, as well as equipment without it slowing him down, and being able to strike down Madara before he even a chance to react?--JustaNobody (talk) 02:38, June 8, 2013 (UTC)

Power?
Is it worth mentioning that when Hashirama was alive, he was able to stop his younger brother Tobirama from killing Madara with just a glare; under his abilities & powers?--JustaNobody (talk) 00:37, June 16, 2013 (UTC)--
 * Just curious, do you have some kind of disability or something? Talking about your habit of whatever that is. For the question. a glare isn't a power, it's a display of dominance and Tobirama showing him respect--Elveonora (talk) 01:02, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

No I do not have a disability, I am just being honest; plus I was asking about because it seemed like it my be important what's wrong with that?--JustaNobody (talk) 01:17, June 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's not what I was talking about, I meant you adding unnecessary spaces in front of your sentences--Elveonora (talk) 12:22, June 16, 2013 (UTC)


 * Information is already mentioned throughout their respective articles.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:31, June 16, 2013 (UTC)

How about that his power was enough to frighten his former student, Hiruzen Sarutobi; who is also renowned as the "God of Shinobi" during his lifetime and after being reincarnated alongside both his predecessors and successors?--JustaNobody (talk) 22:00, July 2, 2013 (UTC)

Unnecessary. It speaks for itself. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:18, July 3, 2013 (UTC)

Slug Sage Mode
There were three places mentioned where Sage Mode could be learned: the toad mountain, snake cave and Shikkotsu (?) forrest. Chapter 635 confirms that Katsuyu is from Shikkotsu forest. It is therefore most likely Hashirama, like his granddaughter, could summon slugs and mastered Sage Mode under their tutelage.--Reliops (talk) 18:39, June 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Most likely, yes. Confirmed, no. The truth is, we don't know the nature behind Hashirama's Sage Mode, nor do we know what he has the ability to summon, because its never been stated, shown, or even hinted at. We do not insert speculation into articles, no matter how likely it would seem. Therefore, until confirmed by the manga or a databook, nothing will be added to Hashirama to reflect this. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:59, June 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * First, for the 100th time, there's no such thing as "slug/toad/snake sage mode" just Sage Mode. Second, nowhere it's been mentioned that they teach it in Slug's forest too, it was stated to be just equally famous place. There's no logical reason why should the technique be unique just to the 3 species.--Elveonora (talk) 21:41, June 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Elveonora explain to me one thing. Why the incomplete Jiraya's Sage Mode looked like a frog? Why when gathering natural energy teached by the toads they turn into frog statues if they couldn't control the natural chakra? Why naruto when gathering natural chakra and entering Sage Mode gains frog-like eyes? Do you think that learning with snakes the pupil will turn into frog if couldn't control their way to gather natural energy? Of course there is such thing. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 22:40, June 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Take it at to the right place.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 22:44, June 19, 2013 (UTC)

@Dan, the point being that he could be a rabbit sage for all we know, don't assume he was taught at slug bones forest (thought slugs have none by the way)--Elveonora (talk) 22:53, June 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Slug i agree with you 100%, "Rabbit got me LOL xD", Snake Sage Mode i think is not the right term, but there isn't a better term to define the Sage Mode teached by frogs into Mount Myōboku, the same goes by snake. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 23:02, June 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * I saw beautiful pictures of Sakura in Sage mode her hair grew long, her body has a figure, and cherry-blossoms sort of came out of her hair. One in color and one in black and white. The true form of Sakura with that mode is that she has become the forces of nature b/c of that cherry-blossoms came out of her hair. B/C of her chakra control, she can mentally control things using her chakra. Someone said that her seal represents the Buddha's of the physical and spiritual energy that she'll use it to have Sage Mode. Though none of it has happen but those pics were pretty (except the one in black and white b/c in that color her eyes are scary to me). I wish those pics I seen will happen but my guess is it won't. Yeah I think Eleveonora is right we just call it Frog Snake and Slug Sage Mode by those names b/c you know its the kind of animal of the Sage Mode their in.Inoyamanaka98 (talk) 02:14, June 20, 2013 (UTC)Inoyamanaka98

Byakugō no In?
Ok, it may sound stupid it may not, i know that everyone asks why didn't Hashirama looks older in Tsunade's photo, and then hit me, may it be Byakugō no In? He could used it like Tsunade use the seal to look always young right? Attention, I am not saying to add Hashirama as a user, but i think that he is very probable to be. What you people think? Dan.Faulkner (talk) 23:38, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hashirama doesn't look old because he didn't die old. He died around the first great war after the founding of shinobi villages. Besides, no diamond mark in his head, and I'm certain he'd have loads of chakra. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:17, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Which photo? And no, he isn't a user. For his age, I redid the math again and realized that age of consent in Japan is quite low, so it can't be estimated due to this fact. But if we go by him becoming a father at 18 and his child the same, then he would be 40 in the flashback with Tsunade at the least. So his age is immeasurable, because for all we know, he was a 26+ years old grandfather, so could be about 30 in the Tsunade flashback as well ._. we also don't know if he lived past Tsunade's 4th birthday. His gambling comment suggests that is the way he remembers her, but his comment about her strength doesn't, unless she was a super child.--Elveonora (talk) 11:15, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hum, Tsunade has a photo with Hashirama i think, and in that flashback he musted be much older then that, 18? god, when he founded Konohagakure how old was he? The timeline is confuse but i think he died much more older then that. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 12:12, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * If you refer to the anime-only flashback with arguably old Mito and Hashirama caressing Tsunade, then yeah, not canon. Other than that, I don't know of any "photo" and we don't know how old he was at x point in time. If we did, then we could easily calculate his age. Again, I originally forgot this is a story written by a Japanese guy, their culture is different from mine or yours. Sex in Japan is legal from 13 upwards, but an adult is a person of age 20 and older. We don't know if his "adventures" with Mito date back to his minor years or if they met after he became head of the clan.--Elveonora (talk) 12:30, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes i refer the anime-only flashback. I think their "adventures" came after he became head of the clan, when the Uzumaki's made a treaty with Konoha, even if Japonese culture is different, we never saw in the anime someone dating for real at 13 years old, saying that i doubt that Hashirama was grandfather at the age of 30, i believe it could be the White Strength Seal, @Omnibender Tsunade's Seal isn't always visible or is?. And yes the photo is canon. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 12:43, June 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Only time I recall Tsunade not having the seal visible is when she spends most, if not all the chakra in it, which has happened only three times: when she fought against Orochimaru in Part I, when she healed most of Konoha during Pain's Invasion, and after Strength of a Hundred drained her against Madara. Don't think the photo is canon either. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:42, June 22, 2013 (UTC)

This is a big assumption of mine, maybe... Almost for certain i am wrong, but there's a little hope that it may be Byakugō no In ^_^. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 20:33, June 22, 2013 (UTC)

We have no age for tobirama and hashirama and madara's generation, and no other way to find out except for one possible hint.. Kakuzu's age. We also know Hiruzen and Danzo were 8 years old when Konoha was founded. It was founded 60 years before part 1. Kakuzu would have been 87 in the beginning of part 1, and if you take away 60 from 87 you get 27. So it is mostly speculation but I am going to say Hashi and his generation were around that age. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 21:53, July 5, 2013 (UTC)

No Jutsu Section
OK there seems to be an error in the code of this page. The infobox completely lacks a Jutsu section. Refreshing doesn't work. please fix. (Evilpuppy (talk) 03:26, June 25, 2013 (UTC))
 * Should be fixed soon. — S im A nt 12:55, June 25, 2013 (UTC)

Unique Ability
I've been meaning to bring this up for a while now, but shouldn't we add Tailed Beast Control as a Unique skill to Hashi's infobox? Ever since Obito and Madara used his cells to subdue the Jubi, it's seeming to be implied that controlling Tailed Beasts is simply another Kekkai Genkai Hashirama possesses, with him also being able to channel it through Wood Release. Also note Suki's translation of something Orochimaru said in part 2:

"I desired that power of the First Hokage, which allowed him to use Mokuton ninjutsu, unique amongst all shinobi, and what's more… which gave him the ability to manipulate the 'Bijū' at will… Kuku…" (「全忍の中で唯一 木遁忍術を使いさらに…"尾獣"を意のままに操る事が出来た初代火影の力が欲しくてね…クク…」, "Zennin no naka de yuiitsu Mokuton ninjutsu o tsukai nara ni… 'Bijū' o i no mama ni ayatsuru koto ga dekita Shodai Hokage no chikara ga hoshikute ne… Kuku…")

This, at least to me, hints at my view, since Orochimaru refers to Hashirama's power as what allowed him to use Wood Release and control Tailed Beasts, not that the former entailed the latter. Skitts (talk) 20:57, July 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, hash dosed freaks can also control TB, I don't think that tentacle thing counts as wood release, or does it? Also note that Hokage-Style Sixty-Year-Old Technique — Kakuan Entering Society with Bliss-Bringing Hands lacks "Wood Release" in its name, suggesting that wood no jutsu only helps to channel it better while it ain't one--Elveonora (talk) 21:01, July 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * Lol, it was classified as a Wood Release tech though. :-P Skitts (talk) 21:03, July 11, 2013 (UTC)

Sharingan allows for control of tailed beasts as well, do we list the Uchiha clan as having another kekkei genkai? I think this is just one of those things about a fictional setting we just have to accept. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:21, July 11, 2013 (UTC)

sensors
I again forgot when and if he ever has shown any sensing--Elveonora (talk) 23:26, July 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Tobirama mentions something like "I've always been better at sensing than you" during the Madara/Hashirama pre-Konoha flashbacks. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:13, July 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, but anyone senses to some degree or not? He hasn't noticed anyone with sensing yet. I think that alone doesn't count Omni and should be removed--Elveonora (talk) 17:17, July 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * He also noted that Oro was using his wood release to bind Tobirama. Everyone can sense.The same way you can possibly tell someone is watching you sometimes. Shinobi have honed senses but those things don't seem like basic sensing.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 17:40, July 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * So why don't we list Kimimaro as a sensor? He noted Oro's chakra in himself. Either he is one or revived zombies can sense their summoner or something--Elveonora (talk) 18:01, July 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * People can always detect strong chakra to some degree. Kakashi and Zabuza detected Naruto's Nine-Tails chakra during Land of Waves arc, neither are sensors. In the Forest of Death, everyone noticed Sasuke once the cursed seal kicked in, and we know those have Orochimaru's chakra. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:41, July 18, 2013 (UTC)

Deja vu
Just to summarize it again. A medical ninja is a ninja with expertise in medical fields as his/her specialized profession and heals others on battlefields.

A technique which allows one to self-heal might be a medical ninjutsu, but doesn't necessarily make the user a medical-ninja. We are yet to see Hashirama tending ill and wounded in a hospital or in combat.

On top of that, medical ninja position and system was created by Tsunade, after Hashirama's time, therefore, Hashirama wasn't: So would anyone oppose if I removed it from his infobox?--Elveonora (talk) 15:53, August 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * a medic for all we know, unless he had that as a hobby in spare time
 * a medical ninja as it didn't exist yet and he was said to could have healed his own body alone, not others'
 * Fixed.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 16:07, August 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * Just because the system was made after someone's time doesn't mean they couldn't be considered one. As for Hashirama, it was only mentioned that he could heal himself without seals, meaning he knew some form of medical ninjutsu but is not a medical ninja. I would consider him one (as of right now) as much as I would consider Hinata one for carrying around that ointment. Joshbl56  16:12, August 11, 2013 (UTC)

Hashi's chakra
"The sheer volume of his own chakra is comparable to the combined chakra of Naruto Uzumaki, Minato Namikaze, and Kurama (the Yin and Yang halves in unison), which is vast enough to support the entire Allied Shinobi Forces, further indicating his immense levels. His chakra levels also made him suitable to learn senjutsu and enter Sage Mode."

was not he talking about only Naruto's chakra that he SHARED with alliance? Also, it worth to mention that the Naruto's half of Kurama was not even at his full chakra, and that's why he asked help from the other one.

I think that statement is exaggerating too much. Rex-05 (talk) 19:38, August 29, 2013 (UTC)rex-o5

i think the reason its worded that way is because hashirama says that after tobirama explains that naruto and minato has synched their chakra through the nine tails, and seemingly acted as 1 chakra is how I understood it, maybe not. --J spencer93 (talk) 21:06, August 29, 2013 (UTC)

It's not exaggerated, it's true. The chakras of the 4 are one and the same during this bonding. This guy isn't called "god of shinobi" for nothing, simply get over it.--Elveonora (talk) 21:28, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but Hashirama calls it Naruto's chakra not 'their chakra'. He uses a singular pronoun and compares his own chakra to that of Naruto's. That's the way it looks to me at least.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 22:38, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * We may ask Seelentau for word to word translation if it's that troublesome. Sorry for threatening you, but I was talking into deaf ears. You take "his chakra" too literary, Kurama's chakra has been credited as his many times, that's because he controls it. According to MS's translation at least, Killer B says: "it's the kyubi's chakra both light and dark" and octopus notes "it's not just the kyubi" as there's some of Minato and Naruto's too, so the edit wasn't wrong. It's stated in the manga and again Naruto doesn't have enough chakra for 40 000 people and himself--Elveonora (talk) 22:44, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hashirama could sense Naruto's though more prominently. He used a singular pronoun for it to directly compare himself to Naruto. And still, we had before Naruto's chakra being felt by non-sensors all the way in Konoha during chapter 616. Given how that without needing to suppress Kurama's chakra anymore made Naruto's full reserve 100 times that of Kakashi's, it shouldn't be that too far out that in terms of chakra quantity that he and Haashirama are equal.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 23:05, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * You misunderstand, the 50-25x times multiplier was WITH Kurama's chakra without it being suppressed, not without it and Naruto's being suppressed. It's not like Naruto's own is 100 times more than Kakashi's, that's hardly believable. I know you are his fan, but even he has his limits. But you are right, there are two ways to interpret what we were told about Naruto's chakra levels. I doubt the majority is gonna agree with you tho. Anyway, Hash's article has been locked, current edit is okay and that's it for now.--Elveonora (talk) 23:16, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * From other translations, some point to Naruto having 100 times as much chakra as Kakashi does without suppressing Kurama. And how isn't it believable, he's the main character and has been lauded over and over and over again for his huge chakra capacity. Naruto and Hashirama having the same amount of chakra seems to be the best case, I'd think.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 23:30, August 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, it's a matter of interpretation. But that's derailing a bit, if you feel like it, bring it up on Naruto's talkpage, should do for some interesting "discussion" --Elveonora (talk) 09:55, August 30, 2013 (UTC)