Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-31672013-20180831233027/@comment-27924662-20180926073307

CombatIQmatters wrote: 1..you reread the chapter but you still don't see it? Chapter 141 pg 12. You can clearly see kisame caught in kurenai's genjutsu, it's obvious since tree roots grabbed his feet. That wasn't asuma's doing, so it was genjutsu, Case closed. Kurenai can catch jiraiya in that same genjutsu and the second she does he is getting blitzed and killed by asuma guy and kakashi. Not even once Jiriaya has been caught in one. every Genjutsu countered by clone every single time. Case closed. CombatIQmatters wrote: 2.And I never said that kakashi can copy collaboration jutsu, in fact I stated that jiraiya needs to use power to overcome kakashu's copy ninja tactics, which is what collaboration ninjutsu provide. What I did say however, is jiraiya using supplementary jutsu like Yomi Numa would be silly, as kakashi would copy that technique and use it against him. That's a nice observation, you should check how collaboration ninjutsu is countered, Fire+Wind combo cannot be defeated by Water, so no copy shenaningans will save kakashi. And two shouldn't you provide the proof for Kakashi's alleged advanatage over Jiraiya in terms of ninjutsu and power? CombatIQmatters wrote: 3. this is what is known as the Yomi Numa fallacy. No technique is inherently both unavoidable and uncounterable. I repeat, the jutsu has only caught a feral, skillless, and experienceless fodder summon, and it caught pain off guard, meaning he didn't see it on the roof when he jumped on to it. Team Jounin has multiple counters. Yomi Numa is a doton. Raiton> Doton. Kakashi is a skilled Raiton user. Do the math. Chakra to the feet is a thing. Normal water can sink people yet ninja can walk on top of it just fine. There is no reason why these jounin wouldn't be able to stand on the swamp if they know to run chakra at the feet in time. They are all experienced ninja who without a doubt have seen earth techniques before. The problem comes if they don't use the chakra to the feet in time, as they will already be slightlty sunk and ensnared by the jutsu obviously, and ONLY then can they not escape. But at that point. Kakashi uses raiton to free himself and his allies, and uses Yomi numa on jiraiya to paralyze him. Even if Team jounin is ensnared, nothing is stopping them from weaving signs. Asuma can still use burning ash. kakashi can still use mid-ranged ninjutsu. Guy can use the 6th gate and outright break free depending on the round. Kurenai can still cast her genjutsu. Than perhaps you should learn how to read between the lines before pointing out obvious. Starters it didn't catch pain off guard, he completely neutralized them with the technique and two Jiraiya is number one infiltrator here far surpassing the Jounin in Round one and Two. Round one Kakashi is without Kamui and Round Two Kakashi is someone who collapsed after one or two use. As for your illogical Raiton is greater than doton argument, you should perhaps watch anime epsiode featuring matchup between omoi and Ringo where he tricks her into the bog. same thing happens here. And For Chakra argument just check any episode with bog or swamps, it's the same for every ninja they can't use chakra to stand up or else pains would have easily escaped after being trap in the bog. Guy can't use Asakujaku in first two rounds or 6th gate. That's the main reason why i said The team can't win. In round 3 only Jonin would win albeit with difficulty.

CombatIQmatters wrote: 4) Jiriaya vs Pain location can mean a number of things, there were open spaces as well. The only restricted space is the corridor which gives jiraiya a chance to summon his toad stomach more efficently, but that jutsu requires him to be crouched on the ground. Asuma can use burning ash in that corridor and kill jiraiya after kurenai tricks him with genjutsu, and while using kakashi and guy as backup to ensure jiraiya's death. And Jiraiya counters Asuma or Kakashi's fire style with even superior Fire style in collaboration. Not only will Asuma's attack be reversed on him but it would be pretty much game over. And Kurenai's Genjutsu has as much chance of affecting Jiraiya as these Jonin's discovering the real Jiraiya meaning it depends on who finds who first. CombatIQmatters wrote: 5) Depends on who steals initative and starting distance. I say 30 feet is standard for this type of battle. At that distance, Kakashi may wait for jiraiya to make the first move as he likes to copy people's technique and use it against them, he may start with lightning tracking fang otherwise. but that says nothing about his teamamtes. Jiraiya would likekly be smart enough to open with summmoning jutsu. So he goes for it and guy is coming thru with that leaf whirlwind, asuma close behind, kakashi using raikiri to help close the distance, and kurenai behind them trying to get into range to cast her genjutsu. Jiraiya is smart enough to create space initally so he will probably get it off if he makes the first move, depends on how fast Guy is. So, the summoning goes off and he summons gamabunta. Gamabunta would force guy to enter gates. Guy's speed and power immediately pushes jiraiya into a corner, gamabunta is too slow to tag gated guy. Jiriaya is forced to take drastic measures. Gamabunta should be genjutsu able by kurenai at that point, asuma tries to weaken him burning ash. Kakashi goes to help guy take out jiraiya. So, I don't see how jiraiya wins this. If he uses yomi numa after the summoning, the jounin counter it, kakashi copies it and uses it to sink gamabunta and or jiraiya... while they are distracted by gated guy and or kurenai's genjutsu.

The only round jiraiya has a feasible shot of winning is the bonus round because having ma and pa even the odds. 30 feets a lot in a maze where you don't know other's location or have any stealthy technique. Jiraiya has a lot of stealthy technique not to mention if four of them decide to go separate ways it's game over. If Kakashi seriously waits for Jiraiya's move than he is done for like Pain. There won't be second chance after he is in the bog. And If Kurenai's Visual Genjutsu is a real threat like you claim then so is Jiraiya's Toads having Auditory Genjutsu. And in such an environment Acoustics will be ideal for attacking. Another important detail should be mentioned here, the Toads don't exactly have the chakra in body, the combine physical and mental energies outside to use "ninjutsu". This detail is mentioned in DB so i don't how valid your Genjutsu argument really is. There is no doubt if Gates Guy come into picture, Jiraiya will need lot more summons. But i clearly stated the victory for Jiraiya in First two rounds. So no justification or counters needed for your guy related statements. Finally coming to major portion of the fight and more fundamental problem with your answer. What makes you think these Jounin's have infiltration skills, detection skills and sensing skills? Only Kakashi has any experience in these areas thanks to his black ops. rest are pretty much gonna hold him back due to lack of experience, on the other hand all these have been shown to be Jiraiya's forte. So it's no stretch that he can defeat the four at there given status in OP.