Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-26636534-20180830184727/@comment-33286580-20181111003505

Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:

Yep anime got me here ;-;

No. that was completely extra stuff. some addition in the anime can be said to be cannon, but they somehow have to link to the manga. here the apperance of Kabuto is just out of nowehre. manga has no mention of Kabuto.

Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:

So how can he substitute if he's dead? if his head is off?? remember he'll regain his consciousness after the genjutsu breaks that is when he's free to cast his substitution...now when someone loses their head they usually die instantly. gg

right. but when head is cut off. here it wasnt. it was merely the hand that was cut off. so he was alive. and i am not even talking about substitution. i am talking about reattaching the arm to body like he did with Naruto's fight.

you adding in the Substitution technique of Orochimaru just gave more reason to my initial point that Orochimaru had yet not turned into a snake. so the Orochimaru back then was not the Orochimaru from Shippuden.

Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: He lives because of outside interference (sasuke)...so he kinda lost, i mean he could'nt have unseal himself.

where does Sasuke come here from? this was about the first Oro Itachi encounter.

i take it you are talking about Kabuto. again, anime extra addition, which has no mention in the manga. not cannon.

Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:

and with moves like deep forest bloom (poison) plus the fire style, madara would've had cooked slug to eat, but would be unable to eat it because it would be poisoned..damn.
 * 4 tailed naruto vs orochimaru....so you'll summon manda to get killed? i mean you simply touch the tailed beaast and your skin corrodes. It;s skin can't even be pierced normally so what will manda do? die?
 * Gokage....tsunade had to co-op with the other kages or had the other kages to co-op with.

You were the one that said the Sannin all but summoned their Summons and stepped back to let the summon fight. i just named various instances they did not use their summons, which were more or less all fights bar the one they clashed against each other and even then they were upfront and fighting.

My point still stands for guys like madara/sasuke. Yeah and that same obito stated that the uchiha can tame the biju with the sharingan, sasuke kinda tamed the kyubi as well.

No. it doesnt. Sasuke has a Kirin on his side. he can use A-rank jutsu like CHidori. and those fire dragons of his are all high rank jutsu.

Madara can use fire jutsus that require tens of shinobi with water jutsu to stop it. he can literally burn a forest.

Obito did say that Uchiha can tame the Kyubi, but why is his word taken as GOSPEL.

Obito was a character who lied about almost everything. he was walking contradiction. even his story of Madara Uchiha he told to Sasuke was more or less a lie. he told Sasuke that the Konoha leaders assigned Itachi with the job the eradicate the Uchiha and not the fact that Danzo gave him a choice and he decided to kill the entire clan on his own. hell Obito all but knew that Madara was behind Rin's death and yet he worked for him and till the end acted as if he was doing it for Rin. he said he hated the Hokage and yet his dream even till the end was being the Hokage. if you see his dreams you will know that he long accepted Rin's death. even during the war he was hell bent on completing the Moon's eye plan and yet challenged Naruto to an competition of ideals to validate to himself that he was right all along.

Obito lied and manipualted people to do his biddings and you actually believe anything he said.

the only Uchiha known tame the Kyubi are Madara, Sasuke and Obito. the first two are Indra incaranations and the other has half body of Hashirama cells. SO unless and until there is some data book saying so no other Uchiha is capable of taming the Kyubi.

Remind me again of why you're stripping away the sharingan from it's rightful owner and it's relevance to the battle. Without FTG Minato would be in the same tier as well. Without Rinnegan ,Nagato would be beyond fodder class. i can list more.

Dude i am not taking out Sharingan. i am merely seeing the power of Itachi without his MS jutsus. and it is not like i discared his MS skills completely. i later talked what Itachi could do to Orochimaru with his MS skills.

this was only to show that without MS jutsu Itach cannot kill Orochimaru. he has to rely on MS jutsu to defeat Orochimaru.

The fact remains that Itachi didn't create the content of that genjutsu, but kurenai did. no biggie.

it does not. Itachi highjacked her jutsu. the moment he did, the one under the Genjutsu was Kurenai.

It is like if A has a blade he goes to hurt B and B snatches the blade away and hurts A does not make it as A self harming himself. in this case it may be self defence but it is B who hurt A.

Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:

Chapter 260 itachi stated it.... Oh gosh, that was the real Naruto, when the team arrived there was no naruto with them. And besides the crow got swallowed by Naruto ....'the' Naruto.

Itachi's statement an entire page and a half was shown to show how the Genjutsu affected the SHadow Clone. and the next page Itachi makes that statement. it is more directed towards Kakashi who just emerged to the ground. it can be clearly interpreted as it doesnt effect the real Kakashi because the one Itachi placed under Genjutsu was a Shadow Clone.

Just read chapter 371. and you will know that real Naruto was always with the team. Jeez.

Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: You said sasuke just used a basic genjutsu while itachi had to use his strongest genjutsu...you're kinda saying it's fodder by competing it against a basic genjutsu.

Again. i am down playing Tsukuyomi. the fact that Tsukuyomi easily overpowered Sage Powered Genjutsu speaks of its power itself.

what i am trying to tell is that Itachi had to resort to Tsukuyomi and did not use Sharingan Genjutsu to overpower the Genjutsu.

the principle with same type of jutsu - say Katon against Katon goes that the powerful one overpowers the other - the same would go for Genjutsu.

here Sasuke used Sharingan Genjutsu with EMS active and his Genjutsu was powerful to break out of the Genjutsu. on the other hand Itachi had to resort to Tsukuyomi instead of using Sharingan Genjutsu with MS.

it shows that outside of Tsukuyomi his Genjutsu prowess is not that great against powerful enemies.

Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:

When did i deny any of that>? btw i was referring to edo itachi...and so were you.

So we are on the same page i take it with the fact that Itachi can only use MS jutsu a few times i take it.

Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:

What? im referring to the literal surrounding, you mentioned the nails which were used on orochimaru, now in deidara's case such obvious elements wweren't present in the genjutsu deidara was in...atleast for the first few seconds. Same goes for the finger genjutsu, it was activated so seamlessly Naruto didn't even realise (even though jiraiya taught him). There's another example present in the sasuke vs danzo battle.

Again. Naruto is pants at Genjutsu. Yes Jiraiya taught him, but it is clearly shown that he did not even completely master the ability to cancel out Genjutsu.

Diedera also seems like someone bad with Genjutsu. given how easily he was tricked Itachi and Sasuke.

the Danzo one. nice one. but it was only Danzo being cocky and all. Obito noticed the Genjutsu. and also we have seen that Sasuke's Genjutsu prowess skyrocketed with MS. he downed one of those guards of A (can't remember his name) with a mere Genjutsu.

Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: So Itachi is not Hokage class? ok. something is wrong here. lol

Yes. and i stand by my statement.

Itachi is stated to be so many things and yet there are simply no feats registered with him.

he owned Kakashi in a battle, but pre Shippuden cannot compare to war arc Kakashi. his greatest fight was with Sasuke and Hebi Sasuke back then was not some uber Kage level shinobi. Sasuke was elite Jonin level shinobi. he then fought against a handicapped Nagato alongside KCM1 Naruto and B. he fought Kabuto along side Sasuke and only because Izanami worked on Kabuto did they get a win or Kabuto was handing their ass to them.

meanwhile the real Kage were fighting EMS+RInnegan+Mokuton+Edo Madara and held their own until Madara brought out the Perfect Susanoo.

Give me that kind of feats for Itachi and then we will talk about Itachi being Kage level.

Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:

hM, HE kinda used tsukuyomi in a flash and the same with susanoo....

when was Tsukuyomi used in a flash? referece please.

I was only talking about Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi.

it is long been more or less confirmed that one may need both MS to activate Susanoo, but one it is active one doesnt need to use MS to use it.

Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:

Lol where in the opening post does it say the edo characters are already out? it just says whhich character orochimaru has in his edo arsenal.

Okay. SO it is not like Orochimaru is going to wait long to summon them. after the first warmup exchange he will soon summon them. that is how it was in his fight with Sandaime Hokage.

it is also not like Itachi is straight up going to use Totsuka blade.

Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:

seems like this is inconsistent as well...he didn't close his eyes when he was about cast tsukuyomi on hebi sasuke nor did he need to close it after he used it on fire ball jutsu which now tells me that closing his eyes to use the techs is totally not necessary.

no. there is no inconsistency.

the Tsukuyomi you talk of was clearly cast after the shuriken exchange because once it was broken the shuriken were on the ground after Sasuke broke the Tsukuyomi. now on page 11 of chapter 387 i would say when Itachi takes on the fuma shuriken there is one small panel in the bottom where he mentions about Sasuke running Chidori through the shuriken you will notice that his left eye is closed. the very eye through which he casts Tsukuyomi. the next moment he burst into crows and then appears in front of Sasuke with his left eye open and he casts Tsukuyomi. the fact is clear that in the very next panel is dedicated with his left eye open before he casts Tsukuyomi

with Amaterasu, again you will find the page before Amaterasu is cast which is page 15 of chapter 389 showing a panel with Itachi's eyes closed and another with closed eyes and blood coming out of it

Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:

ALL you have to do is take a look at the chapters name in which they retreated....then take a look also at what they're saying whilst retreating..then rewatch the story and understand itachi's character and now come back here and tell me if killing a strong protector of konoha would be the best thing to do when protecting konoha is one of your long term goal.

first of all i took this incident as a sarcasm. because everyone is like Itachi once defeated Orochimaru and so he should defeat him again logic.

itachi vs Jiraiya is a topic for another debate.

Also, yes everything about the chapted was about Itachi. even the name. but we also learn that merely use of 1 Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi makes him so vulnerable that he has to rest forseeable future. his words not mine.

Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Yeah totsuka blade, go home...same for you tsukuyomi.

Totsuka blade doesnt kill. it seals.

Also. now that Orochimaru knows that Itachi has the blade he isnt going to be sitting around and let himself be pierced. he will either dodge it or defend against it.

hell he can summon the Rashomon Gates to stop the blade. and yes it will be stopped because those damned things were powerful enough to redirect TBBs. and all Totsuka blade has for itself is that can seal what it pierces. it isnt Kusanagi which can cut through almost anything. so no going past the gates for Totsuka blade.

Tsukuyomi did not instantly knock out Kakashi and it was used to its best, 3 days in a second. Kakashi was still on the field and having a conversation with Itachi for goodness sakes.

Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:

Oh gee,tell me a living character who has unlimited use of his/her abilities.

every person is.

Sasuke in part 1 was limite to 2 Chidori and Kaakshi to 3 Raikiri.

Kakashi can only use Kamui 2 or 3 times.

even CHakra monster like Naruto before SM could only use Rasenshuriken at best 3 times. in SM he was limited to only 3 Rasenshuriken before SM went down.

Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Totsuka blade!! i thought i told you to go home. Don;t forget the battle doesnt start with edo characters already on the field.

Yep. TB is answer to everything. it can win Itachi battle against even fused Momo.

Dude all TB does is seal things it pierces. again never is it mentioned that it can cut or pierce through everything. that is the job for Kusanagi. so all any one has to do is raise a solid defence and they are safe against TB. Rashomon gates come to mind.

Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:

Look down? all im doing is correcting lol.....and wait, won;t that make you an orochimaru fanboy? 0____0

you barely were doing any correcting.

you make anime reference, which is not maga canon. even then it could be taken as canon if it was something that suited the scenario. like Naruto and Sasuke last fight where they only used the extra jutsu outside of manga canon they alreay were shown capable of so it actually makes sense.

you make a point that Sannin fight only with Summons. i debunk that and you try to justify yourself.

i am even talking with proof for Itachi's Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu and the Genjutsu on clone, but you are just stating something.

and you try to answer Orochimaru and Edo's defeat with TB as if it is an all mighty tool without any reason.

I am not an Orochimaru fanboy. actually i dislike him. but i am simply not going to let him lose because i hate him and that too on points that are so easily destroyed and debatable.