Forum:Character and Jutsu Names

I'm just curious...why are all the character names backwards? In the manga releases, as well as in the original Japanese (I confess I don't watch the anime, so I'm not sure if it's the same there), the names of the characters are Clan name, First name. So why are we calling them Sasuke Uchiha, Naruto Uzumaki, and Sakura Haruno? I mean, if this has already been discussed, please pardon me, but if it hasn't, shouldn't we stick as close to the original Japanese as possible? Jhbartlett 20:12, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Uchiha Sasuke, Uzumaki Naruto, Haruno Sakura, etc., etc.


 * This is an english speaking (I would assume, as I can read everything) Wikia. Therefore, we go by Given Name first, then Clan/Family name second. Its just an English Speaking thing.--TheUltimate3 21:35, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but in the English-speaking manga, their names are even given "clan name, first name". Besides, I would also argue for the different jutsus to be given their Japanese names, then English translations...aka: Although I think that might be how it's set up already...not sure. But mostly, I'm saying we should stick as close to the Japanese as possible, while still being comprehensible. Really, I just like how the manga does it in terms of names and jutsus. And the words ninjutsu, taijutsu, and genjutsu all come from Kanji...why aren't we translating those into ninja arts, physical arts, and illusory arts?
 * Kagebunshin no jutsu! (Art of the Shadow Doppelganger)...which is how it's done in the manga.
 * I prefer the Japanese for some too. Others I feel its much easier to use the direct english translation. (For example: on Wikipedia there was a debate going on about a Seal placed on Naruto. One Editor kept refering it as the Shiki Fujin, and I was completely lost. It wasn't until someone called it Dead Demon Consuming Seal did I finally get it.) However it would be MUCH MUCH easier to deal with stuff if they were in a language the majority could use. With that said the reason why we don't translate thoes to Ninja Arts, Illusionary Arts, yada yada yada is because for the most part, we are following Wikipedia's design. If I have read want Dantman has said, we are trying to use Wikipedia as a base as there is another Wiki somewhere using Original stuff. Same reason why we don't translate the Kekkei Genkai's.--TheUltimate3 22:33, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree, I didn't recognize the ice kekkei genkai by name earlier...well, ok, I say there needs to be a translation under some of the less familiar names, but for the most part, try as best as you can to go with the Japanese. Translation is like one step removed from the actual canon. It's one word, I think...shikifūjin...maybe. I'm not sure. But still...increase your knowledge of the subject, you know? Jhbartlett 22:50, 27 November 2007 (UTC)


 * Which is why we use direct translation. Take Katon: Goukakyu no Jutsu. "no Jutsu" means Technique, the "no" doesn't really mean anything. Goukakyu stands for Great Fireball, and we all know Katon means Fire Release. This way we use the easier to use english version while still keeping the direct meaning.--TheUltimate3 22:57, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes and no. Again, I'm proposing that we use the English translation parenthetically. For example, the Kuchiyose Edotensei move. It's got a bunch of translations. And I only really know it by the Japanese, or the manga translation, which was summoning reanimation, according to Shonen Jump. Hmm, plus, it enriches people's brains with foreign vocab. :D Jhbartlett 23:17, 27 November 2007 (UTC)


 * If their minds need to be enriched by foregin vocab, they can read a book, which I seriously encourage because I too need to learn a different language. Regardless as there are many translations and possible translations Great Fireball can go by Blaze of Glory, Fireball Jutsu, and Goukakyu. The only thing everything agrees on is that it was originally Katon: Goukakyu no Jutsu, which is directly translated to Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique. So we list the all possible translations, but have the article use the direct translation. This way we don't opinionate the Wikia, favoring one source over another.--TheUltimate3 23:31, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

I can understand the reasoning for using Technique, but jutsu names aren't even translated using the word Technique in the English Dub. Perhaps while we are translating jutsu names, it would be a good idea to keep it named Jutsu instead of Technique. True, Jutsu may literally translate into Technique by language. But not by what it is. A Jutsu is still a jutsu, because Technique could refer to either a Jutsu, or a normal technique or skill that isn't a Jutsu. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Nov 28, 2007 @ 10:45 (UTC)

Like when Orochimaru describes his quest to uncover all jutsus: he said to the Sandaime that he had unlocked the key with which to be able to do this: Fufushin no jutsu (if I am not mistaken, the words "no jutsu" are in there), which translates to "The Art of Immortality". However, this isn't really a technique; it's an ongoing process. Just thought I'd back Dantman up here. Jhbartlett 14:13, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * And I'm obviously alone on this one but I still insist keeping to the direct translations. Like I said there are many translations or possible translations, as both of you pointed out while Jutsu stands for Technique, in Jhbartlett's translations its Art. So we should still use the direct translation of the techniques for the title, and in the (Name: section percede to have the usual Direct Translation,Kanji,Japanese Name,Various English Translations.--TheUltimate3 20:42, 28 November 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm still for Literal translations as titles, with a few cases of words that can be left not changed to literal form. One of those being keeping the actual word "Jutsu" inside of the Jutsu names, as there is no real form of the series which refers to a Jutsu replacing the word "Jutsu" with the word "Technique". A Jutsu is still a Jutsu whether you are speaking in Japanese or English, it's a Loan word, it's just like calling Choji "Butterfly" because that's the literal meaning of his name.
 * I should actually point out something. The naming standard you are setting Jutsu articles to is actually contradicting itself. You say we should use the direct literal translation of Jutsu names. So we would name the Kage Bunshin no Jutsu Shadow Clone Technique instead of Shadow Clone Jutsu. However, quite prominently the Rasengan is still named Rasengan, despite the fact that by the naming standard you are mentioning, all of the titles should be using Spiraling Sphere in the title.
 * Which is why I'm saying that it's best if we do use literal translations for titles, but omitting translation of certain words which are carried over to the English versions in ways which the readers are actually going to be looking for those words. Namely words like "Jutsu", "Rasengan", and "Chidori". A reader is going to try and find Shadow Clone Jutsu(Notice, that at the time of writing this, this extremely popular name, is a redlink), not Shadow Clone Technique, whatever source they get their Jutsu name from, they're going to look for the Jutsu, not a Technique, because every version from Japanese, to Fansub translation, to English version uses Jutsu, never Technique. Using Technique instead of Jutsu confuses readers more than helps them, and the whole point of translating names was to make it easier for English speakers to remember them. If someone is going to try to track down a set of Jutsu and come up with bad names every time because they were looking for a Jutsu, when the page is named Technique, then we're almost better off using romanized names of Jutsu. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Feb 9, 2008 @ 17:30 (UTC)
 * Your words are true....I would bend to using Jutsu in the titles instead of Technique if it would help. Though it would be really helpful if we had the appropriate names linking to all the articles (For example Shadow Clone Technique would be linked to Shadow Clone Jutsu, Kage Bushin no Jutsu, the very complicated Japanese characters which I can't link to because I'm typing this, Art of the Doppleganger, Shadow Clone no Jutsu (early translation), and so on an so forth, but we all know thats dang near impossible (given the number of techniques that are out there and how much time it would take to find them. Like I've said previously though, the main reason why I want to use Direct Translations is because of how volatile the names have become, and to appease everyone involved focus on their true names, translated into English instead of biasing them through a certain medium. (And speaking of calling Rasengan and Chidori, wel Rasengan and Chidori instead of Spiraling Sphere and One Thousand Birds, both of which I've grown used to, that change was done when I followed the doctrine, "When Wikipedia does it, we'll do it." When Wikipedia re-named Spiraling Sphere and One Thousand Birds Rasengan and Chidori, I made the change here.)--TheUltimate3 17:54, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Well we don't need to mimic Wikipedia completely, especially when there's some way we can do it that is better for the readers than Wikipedia is. But truthfully, the current naming statement is inconsistent with both itself, and our other naming schemes. I've already stated why it's inconsistent with itself. But it's also inconsistent with how we rationalize other schemes. Normally there are 2 relevant things we rationalize things with:
 * If the Japanese series uses a term, and the English series uses both the literal translation of that term (or it's own created term), and also uses the Japanese term as a loan word then we use the Loan word because it's used in both series. (This is why we use Konohagakure instead of Hidden Leaf Village, and primarily use Shinobi instead of Ninja).
 * If the Japanese series uses a term, and the English series uses the same term as a Loan word, and doesn't use the real literal meaning of the word, then we just stick with using the Loan word. (Which would be why Jutsu fits better than Technique)
 * You mean creation of redirects, and converting the use of Translation into Jutsu in both the definition in articles and links? That kind of thing can be fixed up with bots. It'll be especially easy with an infobox where the proper names are stuck into parameters. Plus, we're going to have to go over and edit every Jutsu article we have anyways. Once we get the Jutsu infoboxes they'll all need editing to put that in anyways. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Feb 27, 2008 @ 16:44 (UTC)

A Thousand Years of Death
I agree. We should be as close to Japanese as possible. A hand seal taijutsu technique is named A Thousand Years of Death. But look. They have Death for 1000 Years, Pain for 1000 Years, A Thousand Years of Pain, One Thousand Years of Death, One Thousand Years of Pain, Thousand Years of Death, Thousand Years of Pain, Sennen Goroshi, and Sennen Gurushi. And look at how they start of: Konohagakure Hiden: Taijutsu no Ougi, Hidden Leaf Village Secret Finger Jutsu, Konohagakure's most Secret and Sacred technique, Secret ninja technique of the Hidden Leaf School, and even Sacred Taijutsu. They can at least stick to a U.S., Dub, and Japanese one only.

And also I would like to know abput element descriptions: __ton, ____ Style, and ____ Release. Release is just not suitable. Kakashi Namikaze 17:49, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Katon literally translates to Fire Release. As such that is the best one to use, as it doesn't favor one form of media over the other. (For example: I myself do not watch the English version of the TV. Therefore I would not use the term Fire Style, I would prefer Katon. However there are people who do prefer the term Fire Style over Katon because they do like the English version.) Therefore the middle ground is met to use the direct translation of the Japanese text, which in this case is Fire Release.

Now for Thousand Years of Death, that thing just has ALOT of names. so its pretty much a /shrug on that one.--TheUltimate3 12:24, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Well, the cases I mentioned for differing from absolute literal translation were just a few to stick to. Primarily technique/jutsu and the absolutely extremely one sided jutsu names like Rasengan and Chidori. Partly because it doesn't make to much sense to use a literal translation when the Japanese and English versions of the series agree on the same name for a Jutsu. Oh, though just a note about literal translation. Translating literally doesn't always mean you preserve word order 100%, "Uzumaki Naruto Rendan" doesn't necessarily mean "Uzumaki Naruto Combo", it falls under the "name Combo" form, where the name portion falls under the rules for translating a character's name. One of which is name order, it's highly inconsistent if we translate character names one way in one place, and then another way in another place. So in this case it should be "Naruto Uzumaki Combo". ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Mar 29, 2008 @ 21:45 (UTC)

..tsk tsk tsk
none of you answered the original question. it goes by the last name and then the first name becuase thats the more formal way. even here in america, on tests and in other written things, such as files and ..well yah anyway the last name goes first, then the first name. thats why people are announced with their last name and then their first name...


 * You are right but they would put a comma. (ex. Uchiha, Sasuke and not Uchiha Sasuke) I think the oral format is "given name surname" but written format is "surname, given name". Kakashi Namikaze 15:02, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
 * In Western languages, for that matter. In Eastern regions, the family name goes before the given name for honorific reasons. Proclaiming your family first is bringing honor to the family, as you show respect in that sort of way. For that reason in places like China, children are sometimes brutalized into becoming the ideal "clansman," to continue the family honor. Loss of honor to the family degrades the family's status, and brings shame upon them. --Dubtiger 22:53, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Actually, the north-american "Last, First" form has nothing to do with honorifics. It's sorting. The "Last, First" system was created to ease the use of automated sorting, and making searching by lists easier and more readable. It groups people with the same last name together, and as a additional result when you scan a list with your eyes you can easily find the last name, and then finding the first name is easier because all the first names have the same indentation into the page because of having the same last name. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Apr 1, 2008 @ 06:02 (UTC)