Talk:Nagato

Nagato page
Shouldn't we make a separate page since pain is the 6 bodies and Nagato is guy controlling them


 * I concur. Pain and Nagato aren't the same being... Heck, Pain is actually a technique utilized by Nagato. 83.191.131.70 14:39, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Then why dont we change the name, picture and stop calling him pain Jackrandle 16:34 march 2009 (utc)


 * I agree, as said above the "six Paths of Pain" is actually a technique and Nagato is the real being Shock Dragoon


 * Agreed, Nagato is his real name, Pain is just a disguise name he took up because he uses other bodies (and maybe a little because of his goal of showing true pain to everyone as well). As it is now, it's like naming the Hiruko puppet Sasori because Sasori used him or naming Madara's page Tobi just because he uses it as a cover name. --81.237.203.10 15:28, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * All in all, they are one being so considering them on one page should be right. Shikamaru42 14:24, 6 April 2009 (utc)

Six Paths of Pain
Now that it has been converted to the "Nagato" page, shouldn't we create a "Six Paths of Pain" page so we can save space on this page? Shock Dragoon
 * Sounds like a good idea. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Mar 27, 2009 @ 22:47 (UTC)
 * I personally don't believe it a good idea as we'd be striping most of the information about the character away. At least until Nagato is dead or permantaly defeated so that we can see what the pages would look like. ~Super Novice-Talk to Me~ 23:03, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm with Super on this one. Because Pain, just due to simplicity counts as two characters (I.E. Naruto is fighting Pain, he is looking for Nagato), I would wait until we know we don't have to deal with frequent updates before trying anything.--TheUltimate3 23:09, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It seems to me like a separate page will be needed soon. The Six Paths of Pain are, in effect, a jutsu utilized by the chakra receivers and the Rinnegan. On pages 13 and 14 of 441 we can see that Nagato does not actually occupy any of the bodies (namely the Deva Path). Instead, he transmits his own chakra to the bodes much like the puppet styles.


 * This means that it would be more accurate to classify Nagato as the character and Pain (or the Paths/Deva Path) entirely under either the "abilities" section or in an entirely new article.


 * The whole "Pain is Nagato/Nagato is Pain!" argument, while a good guess, lost credence in chapter 442 and was outright disproven in 441. It's probably best that we stop sticking to what's nice and cozy and familiar and change the page to what is the truth.--Newthx2u (talk) 02:49, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

NEW PIC
WHEN DID THE RED HEAD PICTURE OF NAGATO COME OUT!!!!!!! i never remember seeing this picture in anything is it fan colored??

one more thing should we move the 6 paths of pain and nagato in to 2 diffrent articles--PAIN (talk) 04:48, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The coloured pictures cam eout with chapter 442. Your second question was already answered in the section above yours.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 04:50, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry did not read the article above mine My Bad--PAIN (talk) 04:53, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I for 1 prefer the old pic.. AlienGamer
 * The old one isn't actually a picture of Nagato though now is it? Though i do admit he is ugly in the picture.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 04:55, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * -had to lol at that- Metus (talk) 08:16, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I prefer the old. But I'm gonna wait until others chime in. --TheUltimate3 (talk) 13:08, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Ya I Agree...These new pics look crappy...to say the least..... AlienGamer


 * It's not that it's crappy, cause in truth it's a good picture of Nagato. Just not the first picture we see of him.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 13:39, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

At least we should upload a High Quality part of that scan, this is a cropped part of the Sleepyfans scanlation and the qualiy is very bad, the same goes for the pictures in Yahiko and Konan's pages.--Dadadaft (talk) 15:10, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * It's not that it's a crappy picture (though a higher quality would be great) it's just from my standpoint, that's not the first picture we see of Pain. For all extensive purposes it's the last picture. TheUltimate3(Not at my own computer)--131.118.64.110 (talk) 15:12, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry Ultimate but what do you mean last? I understand it's the lastest picture but last...?  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 16:07, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * (Before going to class) Since Pain was introduced (i.e. We could see his face) it has been in order, Deva Path, First Animal Path, Preta and Human Path, Then Asura and Naraka Path, New Animal Path, and then after seeing 7 Paths of Pain we finally see Nagato. That's why this is technically his last appearance.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 16:45, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh I understand now.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 16:47, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Image policy has been to use the first appearance that a character has showed up with. The older pic may have been better just like how we use a Tobi pic for Madara Uchiha. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 3, 2009 @ 19:41 (UTC)
 * I uploaded the redhead pic. I understand that the "first appearance" pic is the one that's usually used, but God Realm isn't actually Nagato. If this page was the "Pain" page, then God realm would be fine. However, this is the "Nagato" page. Lest just stick to the main pic being a (preferably higher quality) redhead pic.--NurXang (talk) 20:28, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I understand what you're saying Dantman but wouldn't this situation be a bit different? In the Madara one It's the same person and body but different names. In this one though it's two different bodies, two different names just both under that same control.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 20:32, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not two different names. "Nagato" is the old name, "Pain" is his alias. Just like "Madara Uchiha" is using the alias "Tobi". And while he has multiple bodies, it's not a case of control where an external person is being manipulated but still owns that body. Nagito's ability takes dead corpses and allows him to manipulate them as his own body, for all intensive purposes the bodies become his body and no longer belong to the old owner. He may be a patchwork made up of multiple bodies, but they are still his bodies. Just like how Kakuzu takes other people's body parts and replaces his own with them, has multiple hearts none of which even have to be his own, and can separate his body into 5 individual bodies. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 3, 2009 @ 21:45 (UTC)
 * No. just pretend that the 1st time we saw Kankaro was one of his puppets we still wouldn't put 1 of his puppets for his picture. Vegerot (talk) 14:53, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd say you're correct, this situation is a bit different. This is more like the situation with Sasori and Hiruko. None of the Six Paths of Pain are actually Nagato, they're corpses he controls like puppets using his chakra transmitters. Deva Path, for example, is simply Nagato manipulating and acting through Yahiko's dead body. Unless we get enough information on Nagato to warrant the seperate articles for Nagato and Pain, I think that this is probably for the best; We don't know how much info we'll get on his various bodies when the next data book comes out, so I think it's best to keep this page Nagato-centric for now, since we actually have stats for him. At any rate, I'm currently cleaning up and enhancing a higher quality scan of the 442 frontispiece, and will upload better images of Nagato shortly, as well as Yahiko and Konan. FF-Suzaku (talk) 21:58, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Kankuro's puppets are puppets, he controls them through chakra threads. Pain's paths are bodies, he manipulates them from inside without any chakra threads, he sees what they see, and feels what they feel. They are bodies, puppets are inanimate objects. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 3, 2009 @ 22:01 (UTC)


 * Actually, he controls them by transmitting his chakra (via the numerous black rods piercing his back) into the chakra reciever piercings on the bodies -- like a remote control. The bodies are the corpses of deceased shinobi, and I believe dead bodies are generally considered inanimate (hence why bringing them to life is called reanimation). He doesn't control them from "within", though if he did, it wouldn't be much different from the way Sasori controls Hiruko, which he wears like armor; furthermore, Sasori was able to transplant his heart into other puppets and take control of them. We still don't know the exact details of how Nagato manipulates them, but it's probably similar to the way he is able to paralyze his still-living enemies by stabbing them with the black spears and pouring his own chakra into their bodies (with an image of the Rinnegan always appearing in the background behind them). FF-Suzaku (talk) 23:09, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * This is absurd, Nagato's page deserves a picture of Nagato and a Pain page deserves a picture of Deva Path. It's not fair that the wiki has to have wrong images just because the admins think that's the way it should be. Separate the Pain and Nagato pages and the problem will be solved.--Dadadaft (talk) 23:45, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * They are technically the same person. If you read the section above this section you can see why they won't seperate them into two pages.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 23:49, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I'll refer you all to my reason on the above discussion. Not too sure if it will count seeing as how i disagree with 2 out of the 3 individuals who's opinions actually count.--Newthx2u (talk) 05:56, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Breaking off a bit to make some notes and summarize things a bit. There is something important to point out. One of the things consensually decided some time ago. The wiki is meant to be relevant to anyone reading despite whatever point of the series they are in. That's why we try to avoid "current" things and try to use past tense in articles (a little trouble getting every new editor to understand this though). The relevant point there is that we try to use the first relevant picture of that character since it was agreed on that the first appearance is the most relevant to all readers. There may or may not have been another note in that, I can't quite remember if there was anything about bodies. In any case I just realized we've all forgotten about Sasori for ages and his page was never made to fit whatever policy we came up with.
 * We have "Nagato" and "Pain" as names. "Nagato" is the real name, and "Pain" is an alias just like "Tobi".
 * Note we also have "Six paths of Pain". If we were ever to split pages then it would be "Nagato" and "Six paths of Pain". "Pain" isn't a separate being so the only relevancies are "Nagato" (the person) and "Six paths of Pain" (his technique and alternate bodies)
 * Nagato has a body of his own which is revealed fairly late on in the manga.
 * Nagato has six other bodies, whatever you want to call them, he controls them.
 * Out of these the deva path is the first appearance Nagato makes under the name Pain.
 * For the majority of the first part of the series Nagato/Pain is shown the deva path is the body that takes his role.

Another thing to note. The new infoboxes when built on the soul eater wiki had an improvement to the image system made on them. It was actually done in the back end so as a result it's even usable inside of the old infoboxes, it was recently moved from the souleater wiki and pushed out across all wiki in the sync que. The |image name= parameter supports some extra options. Size can be specified after a : and anything after a ; gets turned into a caption, as well it's actually setup as a newline separated list so there is support for multiple images inside the infobox. You can take a look at an example in use at w:c:souleater:Kishin Hunt. So it would be possible to have both the deva path and then his original body in the infobox with captions since they are both relevant. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 4, 2009 @ 08:11 (UTC)
 * "Now that it has been converted to the "Nagato" page, shouldn't we create a "Six Paths of Pain" page so we can save space on this page? Shock Dragoon"
 * "Sounds like a good idea. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Mar 27, 2009 @ 22:47 (UTC)" --Newthx2u (talk) 00:25, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * An important thing to note about the images. The debate on whether Pain is Nagato or not really has no bearing. It doesn't matter whether by some technicality Pain's bodies are puppets or not. When it comes to things like infobox images identification is what is important. Whether or not the Pain bodies are part of Nagato or not doesn't matter, what matters is the fact that they are controlled by the same will, and for a good portion of the series the deva path was identified with as the appearance for Nagato/Pain.
 * The big rationale for using earliest images like a part I image of Shino inside the infobox rather than a part II image of him is identification. Shino was identified with by his part I appearance when he was first introduced, that image was stuck with for all of part I, and while he has a new appearance in part II the part I appearance is still relevant to both those reading/watching part I and those reading/watching part II. Thus we use a part I image to identify him.
 * Likewise, whether or not the deva path is technically part of Nagato or not the fact is that he was identified with as Nagato/Pain's appearance for a good part of the series. Think of it from a new readers perspective; Someone who has gotten up to the recent parts of the anime where "Pain" starts to show up. They come to the wiki and look for "Pain". Get redirected to "Nagato" (even if we create "Six Paths of Pain" there will still only be one character article). Then staring at the infobox think "Who is that? That's not the person I'm looking for information on?"
 * ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 6, 2009 @ 19:34 (UTC)

he is look ugly in that picture i think nagato's hair is black82.201.251.176 (talk) 19:39, 6 April 2009 (UTC)hedgehogs
 * It doesn't matter what we think about how Nagato looks, it's the fact in an offical picture he has red hair.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 19:43, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Ya, up till awhile ago we were under the assumption that Nagato had orange hair since all of Pain's bodies had orange hair. But fact is the only reason hair looks black in images, is because manga is black and white. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 6, 2009 @ 19:52 (UTC)
 * I don't know how many time's i'm going to need to say that Deva Path is not, in fact, nagato. All of the path's have been destroyed, yet Nagato is still alive as Nagato. Plus, if somebody who's not up to date is stupid enough to base an entire article off of an unfamilliar main pic and not even read the first sentece, then i'm fairly certain that they shouldn't be on here in the first place. Let me pose this question: If we eventually get a better pic of the Sage of the Six Paths, are we going to keep the creepy shadow pic "because it's what we saw first"? I mean, showing a pic after his first appearance would just confuse the SHIT out off everybody, right? --Newthx2u (talk) 20:16, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe this can be answered with the question: Are we still showing the sillouette of Pain since it's the first thing we saw? You have to think with the point of view that everyone is a beginner when dealing with an encyclopedia.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 20:18, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The arguement that the Deva Path isn't Nagato is irrelevant, because the Deva Path is/was the main body of Pain who IS Nagato. When Pain was introduced, we see him as the Deva Path. That picture, that body, that Pain is what he is identified with. When we are introduced to his true body, that does not change the fact that he is identified with Pain. And using a silhouette as their "first appearance" is grasping at best. If that were the case, then Orochimaru's image would be a silhouette. Hell, ALL of Akatsuki would be a Silhouette.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 20:26, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * @Newthx2u's comment: Readers are readers, whether they are up to date with the series or not. In fact the reader is even more important when they aren't up to date, because they are the people without the information who are coming to the wiki to get the information they are missing. And the fact is that people do base off an appearance, if we give a completely unfamiliar image right up front without showing off the early general appearance of the character then the person who is hunting the wiki for an article on a character will think that he got the wrong article and will end up on a wild goose chase trying to find the character article for the character they've just seen in the series.
 * As for silhouettes, you aren't grasping the looseness of the explanation. This is guideline style policy, not flat rigid rule. When we talk about "earliest appearance" we're talking about the earliest general appearance of the character that is stuck with. Thus, we don't use a picture of Naruto painted up like he was in the first episode since that isn't what the series stuck with to identify the character. And we aren't stuck with silhouettes because those are the same appearance. We count the general appearance, in other words a different "appearance" is one where there was a border crossed (a character grew up, got a huge makeover, stole someone else's body and made it their own, etc...), a silhouette is not one of those, it's just a hard to see version of the character's general appearance. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 6, 2009 @ 20:50 (UTC)
 * Still, suppose the paths remain destroyed, yet nagato survives and goes on for the rest of the series as just Nagato. Will we still stick to this first-image policy?
 * People still seem to be insisting that because we saw Deva Path first he's the one we'll stick to. Why then, may i ask, do we have the redheaded sasori pic on his page? We went for chapters and chapters and chapters of seeing Hiruko, and commonly associate them as the same. This is almost the EXACT SAME THING as what we're dealing with with Nagato right now. Look at their histories:
 * 1) We both start off seeing them as silouettes, then go on to see their "real bodies"
 * 2) After a fight with them starts, we learn that these are not, in fact, their real bodies.
 * 3) We then find out that the real person is controlling what we originally thought to be the real bodies.
 * at this point they split, because the Sasori page gets a pic of the REAL Sasori, yet the nagato page STILL KEEPS THE SAME INCORRECT PIC! --Newthx2u (talk) 22:21, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I already noted Sasori earlier on, we all forgot about Sasori for ages and his infobox was never made to fit. If you'll take a good look Sasori's page has been ignored so much that there's no relevant discussion on the talkpage, and his infobox isn't even in the Infobox: namespace. We can deal with Sasori later.
 * As for the comment on the paths destroyed and Nagato is continued. Yes, because that's precisely the same case as a Part I vs. Part II image. Saying we should switch image because the series has started to use the new appearance more is like saying that we should use Part II images because Part II of the series is using Part II images more than Part I images.
 * One thing you haven't even commented on is the compromise I listed. If it's not clear THAT is what I am arguing for at this point. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 7, 2009 @ 01:54 (UTC)
 * Hmm, your compromise intrigues me. How exaclty are you proposing the pics be organised? --Newthx2u (talk) 05:30, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You mean that two picture thing? Oh lord that looks awful... and unnecessary--TheUltimate3 (talk) 11:52, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I did some experimentation. Rather than the standard setup, there is an actual interesting alternative. Infobox talk:Nagato. With a little image ratio tweaking and some css fixes that I think I forgot to move from the soul eater wiki to the shared styles, it could look pretty good. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 7, 2009 @ 17:03 (UTC)
 * It looks okay, equal size to make it better but I believe it'd stop most of the arguments. We'd have to do the same for Sasori, no?  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 17:06, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yup, I was going to hunt/poke for a image to go along with Sasori after this discussion was resolved to make Sasori fit with whatever we decided to do here. The size ratio tweaking I mentioned is what would fix them to be equal size.
 * Just a side note I realized, just as an amusing fact rather than an argument since the discussion is looking constructive anyways. Brining Sasori into the picture shows a little flaw in the "Pain's paths are not Nagato's body and should not be used to depict him" argument. Sasori's "body" isn't his body, in fact he doesn't even have one anymore. By that argument neither of the forms we see Sasori in could even be considered valid pictures, cause neither of them are bodies, Sasori discarded his body and replaced his own body with a puppet. ^_^ By rationale that we should be using physical bodies Sasori's infobox image should be a close up of the object containing his heart in Image:Sasori's Pupet Body.jpg *snickers*. (On a side note, someone mind finding an image of that anyways, I think a close up of that thing after it's jumped out of Sasori's puppet body would be a good pic to put inside the article). ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 7, 2009 @ 17:38 (UTC)
 * Based off what you said there, and if we decided to go along with that the only proper imagines we could put for Sasori would be his child picture or the piture of his heart as they are the only time it's showing his living tissue.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 17:42, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Editing Ideas
Well, I was thinkin', maybe we should make a part about his real body, and his/its abilities, like ya did with the other bodies. And, I know where he uses Wind Release: Violent Wave Palm (I think that's the name, and it would be really cool if Naruto learned this sometime), but why isn't it listed with one of his bodies, or all of them if they can all use it? That's all.--Kagimizu-Seeya 'round~ 22:39, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * It's Wind Release: Violent Wind Palm. It's not listed with any of his bodies because he used he used it as a child, with his real body. As for his main body, any abilities he uses with it should probably be included in the main body of his abilities section. Right now, the article looks as though it would need a considerable amount of updating to bring everything in line with the recent change of making it center more around Nagato than on his "Pain" persona.

Ordering of Bodies
I believe we should reorder the list of bodies in their order of appearence; Deva, Former Animal, Preta and Human, Asura and Naraka, Animal or whatever offical list Buddisum has for the realms; Deva, Human, Asura, both Animals, Preta, Naraka. Six realms  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 23:02, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought we were already ordering the bodies by order of appearance? If the ordering is wrong then that should be fixed to be in order of appearance. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 3, 2009 @ 23:06 (UTC)
 * I've put them in correct order by appearence now. Dantman, question how are we going to handle the 'path' in the name of the Sage of the Six Paths?  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 23:14, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Need a little more thought on how to deal with what is a title and what isn't. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 4, 2009 @ 04:41 (UTC)
 * Ok, thoughts are a little clearer. We have "Path", "Six Paths of Pain", "Pain Rikudo", "Sage of the Six Paths", "Rikudo Sennin", and "Some Path". The biggest issue was that I looked through the article and saw a huge pile of capitalized "Path[s]" which were completely ungrammatical since path isn't a proper noun. Quite frankly "Six Paths of Pain" looks odd, but I guess it and "Sage of the Six Paths" are titles. "Some Path" is debatable however. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 4, 2009 @ 08:25 (UTC)

Main Picture
Shouldn't the main picture be a picture of the real Nagato, and not the one of the Deva path? The picture that is in the article is just the Deva Path. I suggest using this one. Also, shouldnt the Yakiko main article picture be that of the Deva Path? Just asking, because on a flash page, it was organized like such: Konan as a kid, Konan, Yahiko, Deva Path, Nagato as a kid, real recent Nagato, etc... --NejiByakugan360 (talk) 14:18, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Read this section.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 14:26, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm all with you on this, man, it makes perfect sense to have the Nagato page have a pic of Nagato. Unfortunately Dantman, SuperN, and Ultimate3 dissagree with this oppinion, so the rest of our oppinions don't really hold any sway right now. --Newthx2u (talk) 18:09, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * This has absolutely nothing to do with opinion right now. The current image is set as the deva path image because that is the image we used to have up, discussion on the topic has not finished and consensus has not been established, so we leave the image as it used to be. There is more to consider than just opinions on whether pain is nagato or not, and a compromise has been suggested as well. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 6, 2009 @ 19:20 (UTC)