Talk:Mutations

Potential Mutants
Kisame Hoshigaki, because those gills on his arms and face, skin colour, eyes, etc. seem a bit more than cosmetic. Might also explain his strength. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 06:04, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * What evidence do you have for these being mutation besides that other people don't have them? I mean maybe humans are just not like normal humans in naruto world... - S im A nt 06:16, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * The second databook classified Kidōmaru's jutsu as hiden. If anything, hiden jutsu can be made from mutations. Take for example Deidara. His extra mouths are all but explicitly said to come from the Iwagakure Kinjutsu he stole. His Exploding Clay is hiden, and comes from that. Also, Isaribi and Amachi aren't examples of mutations, they were experimented on, that's how they got their fish attributes. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:59, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Those people are anime, and I do not know much about the anime. As for Kidōmaru, his JUTSU may be hidden, but those arms and eyes are not classified as such. As for Kisame, we do not have much information about differences between us and Naruto humans. Moreover, there has not been a single person who remotely resembles him (except for the teeth).
 * I just think it's important to make it clear that it's the arms and eyes that are different, not the jutsu. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:46, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree, though I it might be better to put the qualfiers on his own page, or added to the list. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 20:59, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * The distinction on the page should be good enough. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:04, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * I for one don't quite necessarily think that Kisame should be qualified as a mutant. I mean, there isn't really any proof. So he may look different from everyone else - that doesn't necessarily qualify as a mutation. Hinōmaru-sensei (日の丸先生) 21:20, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Exactly as above user said. Side note, everyone in the real world is a "mutant" just not to the same degree. - S im A nt 21:22, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

There could be a number of different reasons these people look different, that doesn't mean its a mutation.--Deva 27 (talk) 21:25, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. There are tons of mutants, heck the fact that I am not lactose intolerant makes me a mutant (seriously), so I guess it should be clarified as notable mutations. On that note though, blue skin and gills, etc. means that there is one seriously big difference going on, especially with all the other stuff which indicates a lot of differences. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 21:29, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, it does. There is nothing wrong with it, but yes, you are a mutant.  At a rate of about 10 million of your cells replicating their DNA and dividing at any time, there's basically no possible way for any person to not have any mutations whatsoever.  They just don't have any affect.  (Chill, I'm lactose-intolerant also.  Lactase pills save my life, 'cause I couldn't live without ice cream, cake, pizza, In-n-Out, etc.)  And it is possible that Kisame was born as a regular human, but something about wielding the Samehada changing his appearance and physical attributes.  This would not make him a true mutant.  --Justentizang (talk) 22:03, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

About Kisame, see below. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:26, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Spacing
The double spacing between paragraphs is bad, it's almost like the bug in the RTE that inserted loads of spaces when editing. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:48, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Writing habit, I find that it easier to read stuff if it is not all packed together. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 20:55, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

Eyes
Can I start adding those people that have unusual eyes to the list? And NO, I AM NOT talking about the BYAKUGAN, SHARINGAN, or other doujutsu. Just people who were born with radically different eyes and faces (cited). Perhaps under a Minor Mutation list? Afterall, it may seem small, but if one bit of DNA is different, what else may be (i.e. Orochimaru was a tad unusual) Thomas Finlayson (talk) 21:00, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Mmm, not sure. This is a manga afterall, weird eyes and hair are common. If we include little things like his eyes, we'll have to list Kurenai's eyes, and stuff like Sakura's pink hair. Doesn't seem worth it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:04, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hair can be put down as dye for all we know. What I am more interested in is stuff like yellow eyes (two from Konoha, Orochimaru and a guy cited) or eyes that seem have no iris or pupil (cited), and other more notable things. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 21:08, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sakura must be very patient then, bothering to dye her eyebrows. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:21, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmmm...you got me. Save the hair for later then, and deal with one mutation at a time? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 21:22, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

Credibility
Where the manga, databooks, or anime have there been any indication of mutations. I don't want to hear some real world connotations, I want in-universe stuff to prove these are mutations and not jutsu related.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 21:53, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Jugo is the main one, they said how he had a special enzyme that allowed him to do all of these abilities; thus his power came not from learned jutsu but a natural biological accident. Moreover, here and there you keep seeing people with unusual physiological aspects that have never been explain (Kidōmaru is merely the most drastic) which haves not been indicated to be part of any jutsu since we have seen no indication that the use of jutsu would cause these modifications.

Essentially, I am trying to explain and classify those who show unusual natural abilities, but have not been classified as Kekkei Genkai.
 * No one has ever said anything about these people having mutations.--Deva 27 (talk) 22:00, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not 'said' correct, but heavily implied in some cases that something was off. Put another way, how would you explain it, because that is what I am trying to do? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 22:02, June 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Jugo seems to be the only one that fits this "mutation" thing. Everyone else however, at the very least, seem jutsu related. Kisame, Samehada, Shark Skin, shark appearance, merging with Samehada to make even more Shark Kisame. Kidomaru, potentially related with his Cursed Seal, or body modifications via Orochimaru's experiments.
 * Basically, one example (Jugo) does not seem to be enough to assume the existence of mutants. Not when the Narutoverse exists in a world where great oddities are not exactly uncommon.--TheUltimate3 (talk)
 * If Kidomaru got this from experimentations, would it not be said? Moreover, would it not be done a lot more? Think for a few seconds about the taijutsu he did with 6 arms and now imagine an army of people like him. As for Kisame, you speak as he was named after a shark and then started to look like a shark (the sword would have been unpredictable). Is it not more likely that he was born like this and his mom (after the screaming) noted he looked like a shark?

Moreover, the fact that Nagato was mistaken as a mutant indicates that these occurances are not too uncommon. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 22:09, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * @Kidomaru comment: Not necessarily. A lot of things can go unsaid. Doesn't make them a mutant.
 * @Kisame comment: Not going to assume anything. Knowledge on character naming is enough for me to make a guess on why he was named "Demon Shark". That in itself still does not gander a claim to mutation.
 * @Nagato's Rinnegan, which I except was the target of this mutation comment, IS uncommon. The legendary eyes of the first ninja, appearing on some random orphan. That is uncommon. Jutsu related body modifications however, are not.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 22:14, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

Clarify last point please. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 22:16, June 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Very well. The Rinnegan is special. Really really special. So special it has only been seen once before Pain, in the Sage of the Six Paths. The Sage is already considered a myth to modern day ninja, so when they look at Pain's Rinnegan, they see just some strange odd mutation of some eye jutsu.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 22:20, June 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Please allow me to put my two cents in ^^
 * Kidōmaru fights with hiden jutsu. It is likely his six arms are also the result of that, as is implied with Deidara's mouths.
 * Jūgo was said to have a special enzyme, which could easily be classified as a kekkei genkai. The databook will bring clarity on this issue, I'm certain.
 * Kisame is... weird, but there is no reason to assume this is the result of genetics. It could simply have been a hiden jutsu, body modification, or Samehada. As a side note, Zetsu would be in the same position as Kisame here.


 * As for the Rinnegan, I believe the following can make this clear: Every single kekkei genkai is a mutation. Every one of them. No exceptions.
 * For that matter, every single living being on the planet Earth is built up of mutations of mutations of mutations. If this article were to be accurate, it would not only list things like Jūgo's enzymes, but also Naruto's blond hair, Shikamaru's nose, Sakura's left pinky, Neji's left third toenail, Tsunade's vagina, et multa cetera ad infinitum.
 * there is no basis for this article, nor any way to maintain it within reason and keep it understandable and usable. --ShounenSuki (talk 01:55, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * ...You were doing fine there until you mentioned Tsunade's vaginal area. Now 50 year old danger zones are flashing in my mind. /brainbleach --TheUltimate3 (talk) 02:15, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

1) Forgot about Zetsu, thanks. How would he have developed two brains, and all of those weird stuff by jutsu though (there is a limit). 2) If you read the article you would see that the whole mutation thing has been clarified.

3) I know that the mutations are connected to kekkei genkai, but the significant difference is that these have not been shown to be inheritable, so they cannot be classified as such.

4) Jugo has been around for a while and yet the 3rd databook apparently made no mention of him in this context.

5) Kisame is indeed 'weird,' weird enough that I think he may have been born that way. His flesh regrew the same colour even when fighting Killer Bee even, which means that it is linked to the cells, which means DNA. More to the point, if Killer Bee even suspected that the sword would change him like that (i.e. Kisame looked like that after he got the sword) he would chuck it into a hole and put a big rock over it.

6) Kidomaru has unusual jutsu yes, but if you reread it, it comes from unique skin pores (biolological) and there is NO mention of it altering his arms. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:26, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * @TheUltimate3: Funny, that's how all vaginas make me feel.
 * @Thomas Finlayson: The problem is that there is no significant difference between kekkei genkai and mutations. All mutations are in theory inheritable and some kekkei genkai have not been inherited by the descendants of the original users. As for Kidōmaru, I already said he used hiden jutsu. Hiden jutsu are, per definition, not genetic. Else they would be kekkei genkai. The only possibility is for him to have undergone body modification, as is the case with Kakuzu and Deidara. --ShounenSuki (talk 06:44, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * I hear what you are saying, but by the definition of kekkei genkai, they are incompatible since it requires to be inheritable. As for Kidomaru, I agree, AGREE, that he uses hidden jutsu (he is not even classified under the hidden jutsu section), but I say that his body, BODY, is a naturally occuring mutation. It does not seem reasonable for Orochimaru to have done such a modificiation to only him. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 21:12, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * A. Have you seen the parents of these characters to determine what is inherited? B. Orochimaru is crazy, he does crazy stuff to people. - S im A nt 21:23, June 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * A. No listing of the parents given, but good point. But since they have not been identified as kekkei genkai, and because not all of these mutations are jutsu based, they need their own category. B. Yes he is/was crazy, but those kind of arms are a serious tactical advantage, and he would gain a lot by giving them to more followers.
 * You're argument is because orochimaru didn't give it to more people, it must be natural. Why not keep trying to make more Wood release users? - S im A nt 21:41, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * He thought they all died remember, and if some 50 test subjects, and he would have chosen who he saw as the most compatible, failed then there would not seem much reason to try again. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 21:43, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * And how do you know 100000 people didn't die and kidomaru was the lone survivor? Even Orochimaru does not have the resources to keep trying after something like that... It's pretty simple, people in the narutoverse don't follow the same laws as our universe. - S im A nt 21:46, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hyperbole is unnecessary,and their is a world of difference between the two modifications if you think about. Plus, that assume that he met Oro and developed the Hiden jutsu on his own "after" he met him, which earned him Oro's favour, not before. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 04:32, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

Potential Mutant: Kisame
Kisame Hoshigaki, because those gills on his arms and face, skin colour, eyes, etc. seem a bit more than cosmetic. Might also explain his strength. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 06:04, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * What evidence do you have for these being mutation besides that other people don't have them? I mean maybe humans are just not like normal humans in naruto world... - S im A nt 06:16, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

As for Kisame, we do not have much information about differences between us and Naruto humans. Moreover, there has not been a single person who remotely resembles him (except for the teeth).
 * I for one don't quite necessarily think that Kisame should be qualified as a mutant. I mean, there isn't really any proof. So he may look different from everyone else - that doesn't necessarily qualify as a mutation. Hinōmaru-sensei (日の丸先生) 21:20, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

And it is possible that Kisame was born as a regular human, but something about wielding the Samehada changing his appearance and physical attributes. This would not make him a true mutant. --Justentizang (talk) 22:03, June 4, 2010 (UTC) About Kisame, see below. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:26, June 5, 2010 (UTC

Was getting off topic so I moved the stuff around for clarity. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:40, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Mutants
I keep saying this, but no one seems to hear, so I hoped this would get it through:
 * I know that we are all mutants, but my concern is about those who have displayed serious, and visible mutations, which may have effect their abilities (mutable body, 6 arms, two minds, etc.) or are plainly visible (blue skin, gills, lack of iris or pupil) which may indicate further changes or a possible unknown ability. I do not care as much about lactose. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:42, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Potential Mutant: Zetsu
The skin, the apparent need for only human flesh (yes I know cannibals are possible, but it does not necessarily indicate a personal choice), multiple bodies, carving the dominant one in two, and the two brains/minds. Nothing yet to indicate that this may be jutsu caused. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:46, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Cover of chapter 487 says that it may not be human--Deva 27 (talk) 02:59, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * That many similarities do not happen by accident. I might buy a hybrid, but if someone mutated enough, would you still be able to classify them as biologically human? Heck, you may wonder if Jinchuriki are still human (another talk page, not here). Thomas Finlayson (talk) 03:21, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Potential Mutant: Kidōmaru
His jutsu is hidden, yes. His body is a mutation. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 21:13, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Just so you know, Orochimaru applied body-modifying hiden jutsu to his subordinates before. Misumi Tsuguri, for example. That, combined with several other known and implied body-modifying hiden jutsu, strongly suggests that Kidōmaru's strange appearance is not due to genetics. —ShounenSuki (talk 00:27, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * In the anime perhaps, but in the manga that ability was relatively minor. Plus, I do not think Misumi got it was from Oro. Think about it, if he displayed an unusual ability inside of Konoha that could not be traced back there, would the villagers not get a lot more suspicious a lot faster; at the very least it is not something a good spy would risk.
 * There is enough secrecy surrounding hiden jutsu that he could get away with it and Orochimaru actually uses it himself. Still, it does raise the question: why not assume Kidōmaru got his arms before joining Orochimaru? the point remains the same. There is no reason to assume Kidōmaru's arms are natural. —ShounenSuki (talk 12:33, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

Deletion
After yesterdays shenanigans, I was still left unimpressed with the notions of "mutants" or whatever in the Narutoverse. So I put up the deletion tag. Let's get er done.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 21:36, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * nods*... - S im A nt 21:46, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * yes--Deva 27 (talk) 21:48, June 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * /cough /cough /ialreadygavemyreasonsabovewouldbegreatifotherssaidmorethanaggreeingordisaggreeing /cough--TheUltimate3 (talk) 21:51, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * No mention of these people being mutants. No proof their abilities were or were not inherited. It's an manga/anime, people look funny and can do crazy stuff. - S im A nt 21:53, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

There is a limit to this though. And you may want to get that throat looked at. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 21:57, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * No proof any of these people being born the way they look, and could be jutsu related.--Deva 27 (talk) 22:00, June 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Too many uncertainties, too little relevance to the manga, and too much speculation. I'm sorry Thomas Finlayson, but this article has no solid justification. —ShounenSuki (talk 00:29, June 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * "All" of my information is from the manga if you look at my sources; you will find sufficient comments and examinations on this subject to arose interest if you look at them.


 * The information however tries to apply real world definitions of what is normal and what is a mutation in the Nartoverse. A series where giant demons can be bound to human bodies, people can spit fire out the ass, fly, get the entire top layer of skin burned off and suffer no permanent damage. Hell, Orochimaru was able to completely change himself into a multitude of white snakes, and yet somehow Kisame and Kidomaru have to be mutants because they look different. It just doesn't work.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 11:58, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

How jutsu related
May as well take this argument head on. How do you explain all of these...unusual characteristics as being jutsu related. Granted their was Orochimaru (who was yellow eyed and white skinned when still learning jutsu) but he was perhaps the most brilliant scientist of the series (Kabuto unconfirmed). Thomas Finlayson (talk) 23:29, June 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Kidomaru = Spider Sticky Gold, various spider related jutsu. In respect to the Narutoverse, four arms and third eye are jutsu related to allow, or augment these spider techniques.


 * Kisame = Samehada, various shark themed jutsu, merged with Samehada to make SamahadaKisamemon (HA!). In respect to the series, shark appearance is jutsu related to Samehada.


 * The two favorites. I could go on, but I'd rather not. I feel my point got across.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 13:03, June 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Choose some more actually.

@Kisame: His flesh regrew the same colour even when fighting Killer Bee even, which means that it is linked to the cells, which means DNA. More to the point, if Killer Bee even suspected that the sword would change him like that (i.e. Kisame looked like that after he got the sword) he would chuck it into a hole and put a big rock over it. @Kidomaru: Would it make more sense to develop a spider themed hidden jutsu out of the blue, or after you already looked like one? 154.5.174.52 (talk) 22:31, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * @Kisame, killer bee doesn't care or doesn't know. @Kidomaru, what hiden jutsu? - S im A nt 22:37, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Spider Sticky Gold is labeled as a Hiden jutsu.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 00:24, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * That man is in his own way very egotisitcal; he would never tolerate his body being changed like that. Plus, Kumo would definetely have a file on Kisame due to his present and former rank, and details like that would be noticed. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 01:32, June 7, 2010 (UTC)