Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-26636534-20180830184727/@comment-35409024-20190117042137

CombatIQmatters wrote:

I'm really doing my best to stay patient here... JIRAIYA CLEARLY Stated that genjutsu is an advanced ninjutsu, and I have said that multiple times. Why ignore unbiased character statements from credible characters that the author is using to directly inform readers on the mechanics of his manga, as well as things I have repeated in my post more than once. Genjutsu and ninjutsu is also clearly shown in the diagram Ebisu presented in Chapter 90 and no distinction is made between the two. So Concession accepted.

Well firstly, am I supposed to be afraid you're going to get impatient? I don't see the relevence to even mentioning it. In any case, I need a chapter for Jiraiya's statement. As for the diagram, so what? We see from the diagram that spiritual + physical = Chakra. Chakra + Signs = Ninjutsu OR Genjutsu. [], "or" is a pretty clear distinction as shown in the Viz. Ebisu also continiously uses the or to seperate Ninjutsu and Genjutsu, even doing so in the sentence when Taijutsu wasn't mentioned. Genjutsu wouldn't even be in the diagram if it was Ninjutsu. The diagram actually proves you wrong because it shows that Chakra and Signs can create Ninjutsu or Genjutsu. Not just Ninjutsu. It makes note that Ninjutsu and Genjutsu are different things. If Genjutsu wasn't on the diagram then you'd have an argument because it would imply that Genjutsu is Ninjutsu and that is why it wasn't mentioned as being in this diagram under the product of Chakra and hand signs.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

Your last point just proves my point. If the goal is to end the fight, Itachi can put as much chakra into his genjutsu as he wants. Who cares if he exhausts alot of his stamina if he won the fight. He has time to rest afterward in most scenarios. He was facing 4 opponents, arguably holding back, and was just using thirty percent of strength. He couldn't afford to make ephemeral as strong as he wanted or he would overextend. No ninja is dumb enough to put all their chakra in one technique unless they are certain it will end the fight. The manga clearly showed you that genjutsu requires advanced chakra control, but the mechanics are the same. Advanced chakra control just means weaving signs for manipulating yin release chakra is difficult for most ninja. Itachi has perfect chakra control, that much is obvious. Even if the minimum chakra required for Ephemeral is 1 percent of his overall reserves, it was clearly shown in Ebisu's diagram that the user can mould more than the minimum amount of chakra for ninjutsu AND/OR GENJUTSU to increase the technique, sufficient they have the chakra control to manipulate the additional chakra. Itachi with just 30 percent of his chakra at best would only go up to maybe 10 percent with the Ephemeral he used against Naruto. Furthermore, Itachi clearly layered the genjutsu. He wanted to use MS but couldn't so he switched to a genjutsu  with a lower minimum chakra cost to one that would put naruto to sleep. Naruto then tried to resist, and Itachi himself commended his attempted application of Genjutsu:Kai. In order to sustain a genjutsu on someone in the first place, you need to continously contribute chakra, and being at thirty percent of his strength, he is limited.

It doesn't prove your point cause there's no guarantee he would win. I don't see how me saying Itachi would never be dumb enough to waste Chakra on a breakable Genjutsu when he has Tsukuyomi. Where do you get your source for saying he has to sustain the technique with more Chakra? If that's the case, Itachi would never spend even two percent of his Chakra on Genjutsu that can be broken.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

Furthermore, you missed the point of why I brought this up in the first place. Itachi, as you yourself understand well (something I commended you for), has ALOT more going on then just genjutsu. His clone feints are UNDETECTABLE as far these opponents are concerned, and in fact are undetectable to most characters in the verse. Yeah, I said it. EMS Sasuke who can follow Juubito couldn't see Itachi's clone+ substitution technique. Let's take a trip back to Part one for a second, and @FaitoMai, this applies to you as well. In Chapter 6, Sasuke explains that Substitution technique is a feat of the user's Body Flicker combined with "skill" in order to create an optical illusion. The fact that ITachi isn't faster than Juubito outside of the context of his substitution jutsu allows me to believe that Substitution has a space/time component to it, otherwise people can't just randomly grab perfectly sliced logs. In addition, Zaku implied that substitution jutsu can be used in mid-air (where one can't use their running speed). So I beleive the technique is a combination of Body flicker as the parent technique, then some space/time component, and "skill". Itachi's skill with the technique makes him achieve a clone feinting speed greater than that of Juubito, as what he did was essentially:

He Made a crow clone without kabuto seeing despite the fact Itachi was right in front of him. Grabbed said crow clone and switched places with it the instant before Kabuto stabbed him. Said Crow clone then recorded the izanami experience, and because crow clones are shadow clones, the experience goes back to the user. The fact that Sasuke NOR Kabuto saw or sensed those actions proves that Itachi is on another level. His handseal speed is already untracebale. His clone formations are also untraceable. Clones always spawn next to the user, but no one has EVER seen Itachi's clones form on panel. He did the same thing in all three of the fights we have seen him used clones. Spawned a shadow clone without Kakashi, Asuma, or Kurenai noticing, used substitution jutsu, and got behind Kakashi. Spawned a shadow clone during a goddamm Shuriken CLASH with Sasuke, Sasuke didn't see the clone. Itachi grabbed said clone and swapped out with it and hid somehwere (probably underground) and then reappeared when he wanted. Kabuto I already explained

The reason most ninja don't use substitution in high level battles is because it's normally easily detected by competent ninja. But a genius like Itachi is so skilled he can clone feint at speeds greater than Juubito's shunshin.

Don't get me wrong, I do agree Itachi is more than his Genjutsu. I however, cannot agree or disagree with some of these implications unless a source is there cause I don't recall some of the feats involving juubito and sasuke. I also believe Itachi will never stir away from Genjutsu, because he is a Genjutsu master and I still think he can win against these three with Genjutsu and his feints.

CombatIQmatters wrote: Itachi uses his genjutsu as feints as well. He can easily take out Kimimaro and Orochimaru with his clone feints+ yakasa bead smokescreens,+ Totsuka alone. At that point, he can finish Konan with Ephemeral if he wanted to, because now he has no one else to worry about and can overextend his chakra input to make it potent as hell, and layer it like he did to Naruto to put her to sleep.

I don't think it'd be that simple of a win, and I don't think Itachi is going to rely on his Susano'o for a feint. That might drain him. A clone will take half his Chakra, two would take about sixty six percent of his Chakra, leaving him with thirty three and likely not even enough to use Tsukuyomi since he couldn't at thirty percent. If anything, he's going to use his Susano'o and a Genjutsu to seal an edo. You got to make sure you remember that edo Itachi is not alive Itachi. Itachi has limited time in his Susano'o and using Yakasa, his strongest long range technique, would probably drain him significantly. I do think Orochimaru will likely be done in once the edos are taken care of, probably with ease due to prior encounters being evident. But the edo's are a problem that requires Totsuka which will drain him. If they were alive, this would be a lot easier for him, cause Itachi would be able to conserve his reserves as much as possible. Itachi is likely to lay out a methodical strategy to set up getting rid of Kimimaro, seeing as he's the main threat. I can see Itachi toying around to see their capabilities utilizing clone explosions. I can see him ending Konan temporarily with one of these. Then in that brief time of her regeneration, place Orochimaru in a Genjutsu to use as bait, and then striking Kimimaro as he comes to help Orochimaru with Totsuka. I don't see Kimimaro having a defense for it. I do greatly underestimate Orochimaru despite all his power ups, but that's cause he isn't as suave as he is against other people when it comes to Itachi. I do believe Itachi can beat him with mid to low difficulty. So I don't really see him as a threat. Once Kimimaro is out of the way, victory is a given.