Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-31338621-20190129080042/@comment-35409024-20190208221651

Asian Reaper wrote: @James, even going by strictly the fights yous showed, 3/5 isn't a go-to. Go-to implies that they do this almost all the time, and 60%is not almost all the time. It's one tactic that Minato has, but it's not for sure going to be his starting point. Not only that, he doesn't use that method against one opponent usually (TTJ Obito was a TTJ and a different kind of opponent). Minato protected Kakashi from the initial kunai attack, but after that Kakashi had time to kill a bunch of clones on his own, plenty of time for the fastest Shinobi alive to get his kunai out. But he didn't. Either way, with your interpretation or mine, 60% isn't a go-to. A majority, maybe. But with the sample size only being 5, even that's dubious. Go-to actually means regularly and that means usually. Most of the time definitely fits usually. And as for protecting Kakashi, you're wrong. At first we see dozen of shuriken deflecting a dozen kunai, Minato protecting Kakashi. Then we see Minato still throwing to protect him even afterwards. Look at the first clone Kakashi reaches, Minato literally throws shuriken at him to distract him from the incoming Kakashi, still protecting Kakashi. Then right after that, he goes to protect Obito. Then right after that, he goes to protect Kakashi again. There is no time to throw out his kunai and be offensive against this Shinobi when he is busy with protecting Kakashi from kunai and distracting the enemy for Kakashi who went off on his own, then busy protecting Obito, then busy saving Kakashi's life. These happen right after the other. So I can hardly count this as an example of him not doing the method of his own accord, but merely due to circumstances. Do you have more then 5 showings from Minato, cause as far as I'm aware that's all he's had. So that's the only size we can do. Minato is a sensor type, which automatically makes him a better sensor than non-sensor types. Placing the hand on the ground isn't a hard prerequisite to sensing; in fact, his hand hits the ground just saving Kakashi. For taijutsu users, hands on the ground isn't uncommon. Also, Kakashi reacted to Itachi's clone explosion (getting hit only to protect Kurenai). Minato is faster and has the tech (FTG) to get out of there in time. But does he do it all the time? Nope. Only once from what I recall. So thinking Minato is just magically going to do it when he's only done it on an enemy busy hiding is unlikely. Just because someone can do something, doesn't mean they do. Itachi can point his finger, trap Minato in a Genjutsu, then while he's breaking free, use amaterasu, but seeing how he's never done that before, it makes it unlikely. Kakashi knew of the clone explosion which is why he grabbed kurenai and tried to get away before it exploded. He has Sharingan, Minato doesn't, so unless you can explain too me why Minato notices when two Jonin didn't, then I'm just going to disagree. Susanoo is a massive drain on Itachi's chakra. If Minato teleports it away, he's essentially taking away at least half of his chakra. That's the advantage. Itachi can just confure another one sure, but then it gets teleported away with more of his chakra gone (I'm oversimplifying the scenario obviously, but there's your explanation). Based off what evidence shows that Minato is taking half his Chakra? As far as I'm aware, Itachi conjured Susano'o multiple times on Sasuke, which would of meant on his second time he would of died. He's notice his Sharingan and not look into his eyes. What is this point? Itachi doesn't usually open up with "Sharingan Genjutsu." He did against Deidara. He might've started against Sasuke. But Kakashi? No. Kurenai? No. Well firstly, when has Itachi ever been seriously trying to beat the target in front of him? Deidara. Even then, there are still plenty of instances he started with Genjutsu. Against Naruto multiple times when he was offensive and not defending. Against Kurenai. Deidara. Orochimaru. Secondly, Itachi is known for Genjutsu first and foremost. He is said to specialize in Genjutsu. You saying he isn't going to use what he specializes in when he's serious, is like me saying Minato isn't going to use his speed to begin with. Especially considering every time he wasn't seriously trying to beat someone, he was mostly defending and countering, but when it came to people he actually wanted to beat (Uchiha, Orochimaru, Deidara) he was the attacker. If you're not referring too Genjutsu itself and just Sharingan based Genjutsu, then you have a pretty common misconception. Lots of people tend to believe Itachi uses all sorts of Genjutsu. He doesn't. He only knows one non Sharingan based Genjutsu that we know of. Nagato sensed build up from Itachi's eyes. So not irrelevant. The only time I've seen Itachi use Tsukuyomi while definitively keeping his eyes open was as an Edo Tensei. I don't recall that. Chapter? Okay let's dissect your argument to @Ninja. Point by point.

I agree with the throwing of the kunai. Itachi could stop that attack.

He uses the technique against high level opponents when he can.

I agree that the scenario downplayed Itachi, but (I'm not speaking for @Ninja, I'm just telling you my interpretation of his post) I think the scenario was just a way to show that it's very easy to just give out a scenario where your favourite will win. In a lot of this threads like this, there's downplaying and overrating on both sides. I'm not the arbitrator of who's overrating and underrating, but neither are you. Just remember that in the process of defending your opinion, don't be so closed off to arguments that your opinion can't be changed even in light of a fact or idea that hadn't occurred to you. Again though, Itachi was downplayed in the scenario given imo too. But I think that was purposeful. I can respect that. But War seems to disagree with you, so I can't say this is legit. It's not about a differing opinion, I'm not closed off. You seen how it looked like it was downplaying Itachi. When people give facts or make a really good argument, I'm easily persuaded and have shown too be. I don't believe your argument is biased and in fact I came to the same conclusion of Minato winning majority of the time. My only point was Itachi can win and it isn't an entire one sided beat down like people make it out to be. Take at look at my first entry and you'll see. I pretty much said in the beginning Minato had the better chance of victory which is pretty equivalent too you saying Minato wins 6/10 times. I'm not delusioned enough to not recognize Minato's clear advantages such as his reserves and speed which make fighting him, a difficult task for Itachi. But even with those advantages, I'm still not simpleminded to the point that I think Minato wins simply and with ease. Minato will see Itachi's eyes and realize he shouldn't look there. Again, Itachi doesn't always start with Sharingan Genjutsu. Well that's the thing. Most of Itachi's Genjutsu are Sharingan based Genjutsu and based off the genjutsu Sharingan: Genjutsu. In fact, all his Genjutsu's except one are based off the Sharingan. Even then, not all of them require eye contact. Ninja of War wrote: I don't know what you are thinking, but my scenario is just what Minato can do, and he can open with FTG:second step. Downplay? All I said was Minato uses FTG:second step. I agree that he doesn't start off with it usually, but that was not the point I was making, only that Minato can use FTG:second step right off the bat.

It's not a poor scenario, because it's both in character and possible for Minato to do, don't be so sensitive. It's not being sensitive, it's just how it is. Even Asian who is on your side, can see how it looks like you're downplaying Itachi. Your whole scenario revolves around 2nd step which Itachi can easily counter with a throw of his own with his superior (based off feats) Bukijutsu which you completely neglected. You also completely ignored all of Itachi's ways of slowing Minato down with Genjutsu, which would force him to stop his momentum and break free, which Itachi can then counter strike. You made Minato beating Itachi like a pro athlete fighting a dummy. How is that not downplay? Even your side sees it. So maybe instead of calling me sensitive, take a look on what you said and reevaluate it, cause it's a very poor scenario that only has Minato doing what he wants and Itachi allowing it when he has the ability to easily counter.