Talk:Sage Mode

Kabuto's sage mode
As some might know, I translated Kabuto's words about Jugo's clan and the sage transformation some time ago. In chapter 579, Kabuto says "Immediately, Orochimaru-sama tried to gain that power... but... he did not yet have the body to withstand it... So... just like me, not even he could attain the perfect sage method!". Could someone please provide the VIZ translation of that part? • Seelentau 愛 議 12:28, April 22, 2016 (UTC)
 * Just curious, why asking?--Elve Talk Page 19:04, April 22, 2016 (UTC)
 * Because the possibility exists that a) Orochimaru could use an imperfect Sage Mode and/or b) Kabuto's Sage Mode isn't perfect. Depending on the translation. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:47, April 22, 2016 (UTC)

http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=707977 Check this out, it claims it covers up to chapter 613 QuakingStar (talk) 23:50, April 22, 2016 (UTC)

Viz: "He finally tracked down the source of the power... ...And that was the Ryuchi Cave. Lord Orochimaru immediately tried to acquire that power... But... He didn't yet possess a body that could tolerate it... That's why... He couldn't become the perfect sage that I have become!"--BeyondRed (talk) 00:56, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * Seel's translation is quite different I see.--Elve Talk Page 08:46, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm asking because to me, the Japanese sentence makes it sound as if they were both not able to attain a perfect sage mode... Imma ask OD about it~ • Seelentau 愛 議 12:07, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * If your translation is correct, then it indeed sounds like it that either Orochimaru can use Sage Mode but not perfect or that Kabuto's too is imperfect. But doesn't Kabuto brag on later how he is a perfect/true Sage?--Elve Talk Page 12:50, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * Dunno about that. What I know is that OD translates it the same as me: "He's just like how I am now; he's still unable to attain the means to be a perfect (/complete) sennin.". Do you want me to explain the Japanese sentence/my problem with it? • Seelentau 愛 議 20:20, April 23, 2016 (UTC)

So what do you suggest?--Elve Talk Page 22:01, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * Moving Kabuto's sage mode to the imperfect section. • Seelentau 愛 議 22:10, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well if you are right, then it's not surprising. It wouldn't make sense for it to be perfect. Since he has Jugo's powers and the intake of natural energy is constant, he would have to keep perfect balance of physical and spiritual energies with present amount of natural energy at all times. Naruto let's say can choose how much natural energy to absorb and fit it perfectly with his chakra. But when Kabuto's physical and spiritual energies go down from exhaustion let's say, the natural energy keeps coming, which means there's imbalance. Likewise, even if his chakra doesn't go down and he is freshly woken up, as more natural energy keeps coming, in order for the balance to be perfect, he would have to continuously mold more and more chakra adequate to the ever incoming natural energy, sounds impossible. But that's just my take on it. What about Orochimaru though?--Elve Talk Page 22:45, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * What about him? He still doesn't have Sageification. He ain't got no bodiiii • Seelentau 愛 議 22:55, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * How come his tattoos contain his senjutsu chakra then? Not to mention the tidbit about having been bitten by white snake sage and surviving, being worthy to be taught senjutsu. Also if your translation is correct, it says that Orochimaru indeed is a Sage, albeit not a perfect one. Also it says he didn't then *yet* have fitting body, implying he has come to possess one eventually.--Elve Talk Page 23:03, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * Because, for the thousandth time, Senjutsu chakra doesn't equal Sage Mode. And he never got bitten by the Hakuja Sennin. And my translation says that Oro didn't have the body, right? That's why he couldn't become a perfect sage. Or whatever. I'm too tired to discuss this with you, man^^ • Seelentau 愛 議 23:10, April 23, 2016 (UTC)

Kabuto's wording may be strange, but the idea that he's an imperfect sage doesn't totally add up. The panels in question portray him boasting about his power, so it would be pretty strange for him to pridefully announce how imperfect he is, especially when he later goes on to say he's the closest being to the Six Paths. Don't suppose the databook has anything to contribute on this matter?--BeyondRed (talk) 01:15, April 24, 2016 (UTC)

What about this Seel? *The Power of the White Snake is conferred by the White Snake Sage of Ryūchi Cave, by biting a person and injecting them with its natural energy. Those who survive are deemed worthy of being taught Sage Mode* Can you provide proof that Senjutsu chakra doesn't equal Sage Mode? To my understanding, Sage Mode is a state that comes to be when one balances the 3 energies (physical, spiritual, natural) to form Senjutsu chakra. Once Senjutsu chakra is in one's body, the said body is empowered by it and enters the said state called Sage Mode. Unless you have proof that one can have Senjutsu chakra in his/her body without the effects being Sage Mode/Sage Transformation/Six Paths Sage Mode, then it's bullshit my brother :) Also this is just my understanding of language, but if I were to say: *I didn't have a girlfriend when I was 12* all it would do is inform us that I had no girlfriend at that age.... but if I were to say: *I didn't yet have a girlfriend when I was 12* then it would let us know that I have eventually gotten one at a later time. But I may be wrong, my language skills are certainly inferior to yours, oh great one!--Elve Talk Page 09:03, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * Listen, all I can do is repeat the manga and the manga said that Orochimaru did not gain access to Sage Mode because he didn't have the body. He obviously knows how to use natural energy and senjutsu chakra, because he's using those for his cursed seals. Sasuke is a user of senjutsu chakra but not of the Sage Mode, right?
 * About the "yet", I don't know. It implies that he eventually got a body, but then again, Orochimaru never used Sage Mode and he he even went as far as creating a makeshift mode in the Cursed Seal Transformation. So whatever Kishimoto's logic here is, all we can do is follow it. • Seelentau 愛 議 10:41, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * Sasuke's use of Senjutsu chakra was through his tattoo, which is a merger of Orochimaru's Senjutsu chakra and Jugo's enzyme responsible for Sage Transformation. Sasuke wasn't an user of Sage Mode probably because of the same reason as Orochimaru and Jugo aren't, the 3 energies weren't balanced perfectly most likely. If I remember correctly, the manga said that too little natural energy, Senjutsu chakra doesn't get produced... too much and petrification occurs Then there's Jiraiya whose wasn't completely balanced, yet he did have imperfect Sage Mode. But shouldn't in that case Orochimaru have an imperfect Sage Mode similar to Jiraiya? His balance is apparently enough for Senjutsu chakra to be produced but not too much natural energy for petrification, so wouldn't he fall in Jiraiya's range of imperfect Sage Mode? Unless Orochimaru has Sage Transformation, but he hasn't ever displayed that either to our knowledge.--Elve Talk Page 11:32, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * Axactly. If you look closely, the black skin around a Senninka user's eyes are similar to Orochimaru's... but whatever, let's just move Kabuto's Sage Mode into the imperfect section. But then again, if he's using Senninka, why is it even a Sage Mode? Where's the exact difference? All this stuff was never answere :/ • Seelentau 愛 議 11:36, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * Only as long as you are absolutely certain, then let's move. Senninka is a result of Jugo bodily fluid's reaction to Senjutsu chakra.

In my opinion, Jugo Clan's madness is synonymous to petrification in others. Jugo not mad = volume of natural energy is fine... Jugo mad = too much natural energy compared to his physical and spiritual energies. Sage Mode is this: 'perfect balance of physical, spiritual and natural energies' or you could say perfectly balanced Senjutsu chakra as well (Naruto). Imperfect Sage Mode is this: 'little bit more natural energy than physical and spiritual energies, but not too much for petrification to occur' (Jiraiya)

Both Jugo and Kabuto have Senninka but only Kabuto also has Sage Mode, but as you point out, the dialogue suggest imperfect. The reason for that is that even though Jugo's volume/balance of the 3 energies is enough for Senjutsu chakra to be produced, it's not good enough even for imperfect Sage Mode to occur, while Kabuto's might be almost balanced, with maybe just little too much natural energy and not enough physical and spiritual energies, just like in Jiraiya's case.--Elve Talk Page 12:12, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * What if you go insane when you've too much/little spiritual energy and turn to stone when you've too much/little physical energy? • Seelentau 愛 議 12:31, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * That's some very nice headcanon. But in the training Naruto started to turn to stone with too much natural energy, then got hit with magical stick which pushed it out of his body. Jugo's madness was also attributed to natural energy. According to databook, Jugo has Yang Release which consists of chakra that has in it mostly physical energy and little spiritual energy. In that case, if your headcanon were right, then madness would be a result of too much physical energy, more than spiritual and/or natural. But Naruto also is a 'Yang type' and he was getting stoned, not insane.--Elve Talk Page 12:41, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * I think what Kabuto used was actually an SM, not ST, but at least with the add of Jugo's DNA, so Kabuto could constantly absorb natural energy and keep his SM permanently active. And Jugo just compared his ST ability to Kabuto's SM, he didn't really know the difference, yet ST was the ability he was particulary familiar with, unlike SM. Kabuto said that he didn't get a CS (which he called an imperfect copy of the true power), neither he used Jugo's DNA to completely replicate this abililty in his own body, but he travelled to the Ryuchi Cave to learn the "true", perfected version of the power, i.e. the SM. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 12:48, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * Nah, Jugo in the chapter was written in a way that he perfectly knew what was going on and what he was talking about. When Suigetsu said that Kabuto looks weird, Jugo commented that he himself and Kabuto are the same and it's called Senninka. When Orochimaru sucked out his chakra from Kabuto and the snake transformation disappeared, Jugo commented that Orochimaru also deactivated Senninka.--Elve Talk Page 12:51, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * Like I already said, there's no doubt Jugo was familiar with the mechanics of the ST, his own ability. But there's no evidence he could distinguish between it and the SM, especially considering Kabuto's appearance, which looked very confusing back then. ST is kinda natural ability of Jugo's clan, their "natural" version of SM, so to speak, albeit with significant drawbacks. Kabuto (and Oro) found a true source of this power, i.e. Ryuchi Cave, where they could learn "stablised" version of Jugo's ability, the SM, although only Kabuto perfectly succeeded in this. If Kabuto's senjutsu was purely a ST, there was no need for him to travel into Ryuchi Cave and learn SM from the Snake Sage cause he already had what was necessary (i.e. Jugo's DNA) for replicating ST in his own body. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 13:10, April 24, 2016 (UTC)

Sage Mode is superior to just Sage Transformation alone, Kabuto clearly has both. Sage Transformation is Senjutsu powered mutation. Sage Mode has to be learned as it's achieved when Senjutsu chakra is balanced and when it perfectly is, besides the eyes and pigment, there is no physical alternation. Also he learned Sage Techniques at Ryuchi Cave, like Sage Art: Inorganic Reincarnation and Sage Art: White Rage Technique.--Elve Talk Page 13:29, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * Databook: "In Jugo's village, the state after invoking the power of Senjutsu is referred to as "Sage Transformation"." That wording does seem like it could be implying Sage Transformation is just a region-specific term for any senjutsu-empowered state, be it Jugo's mutations or proper Sage Mode. But of course there's no way to know for sure if that's what it meant until we (hopefully) get more information on Jugo and his clan.--BeyondRed (talk) 20:55, April 24, 2016 (UTC)

Mitsuki uses Sage Transformation
We dun goofed. Mitsuki does not have sennin mode (仙人モード), he has sennin transformation (仙人化). --DC52 (talk) 09:48, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * And that's why it's best to wait for the raws. So Mitsuki either has genes from Jugo's Clan or Orochimaru applied one of his Cursed Seals/Curse Marks on him.--Elve Talk Page 10:06, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, I should've known that mangastream can't be trusted. They can't even differ between 仙人モード and 仙人化, holy shit. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:47, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * Anyone going to make changes?--Elve Talk Page 12:51, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm ready to make changes, bur here's quick question: is it enough that we add Mitsuki as user in Sage Transformation-info box and image of Mitsuki's Sage Transformation? --JouXIII (talk) 13:10, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * Go for it.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 13:22, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * Done. --JouXIII (talk) 13:33, April 23, 2016 (UTC)

Mitsuki
In first boruto volume, Mitsuki uses sage mode. So, is it perfect?--Sharingan91 (talk) 10:01, August 6, 2016 (UTC)
 * It was Sage Transformation, not Sage Mode, dude. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 10:04, August 6, 2016 (UTC)
 * You read this (仙人モード) Sage Mode. He is like Kabuto.--Sharingan91 (talk) 10:11, August 6, 2016 (UTC)
 * Okay, it's something I missed, but still I see no reason to describe Mitsuki's SM as perfect since his degree of perfection isn't mentioned. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 10:22, August 6, 2016 (UTC)
 * Its transformation is different from Kabuto.--Sharingan91 (talk) 10:27, August 6, 2016 (UTC)

He has Sage Mode through means of Sage Transformation, what's hard to understand?--Elve Talk Page 12:54, August 6, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes Mitsuki can use Sage Mode, but saying he used that in the manga with Sage Transformation is full blown speculation. It's a possibility he did, not a fact he did. --Sarada Uzumaki (talk) 02:26, August 7, 2016 (UTC)
 * And how, functionally, would a person who has Sage Transformation, enter Sage Mode without the influence of Sage Transformation? ST passively absorbs natural energy. How can one possibly enter Sage Mode, which requires absorbing natural energy, when ST passively does just that? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:59, August 7, 2016 (UTC)
 * This isn't about the functionality of the 2 techniques, this is about proof that he had acquired Sage Mode by the events of Naruto Gaiden: The Road Illuminated by the Full Moon. If he acquired Sage Mode after, all the information we are currently recording on the article is only relevant to Sage Transformation. --Sarada Uzumaki (talk) 08:12, August 7, 2016 (UTC)
 * Those profiles are clearly about skills and abilities they had by the time the events of the movie began. Sarada with Sharingan, Boruto being listed with nature transformation jutsu that matches the ones the said he could use, even before being given the Kote. It makes zero sense for these profiles to be about future stuff. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 11:17, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

It's very simple, Jugo Clan powers are:
 * body passively absorbs natural energy on its own
 * a fluid in such a body reacts to Senjutsu chakra and the result is going mutant (Sage Transformation)
 * Sage Mode happens when in Senjutsu chakra, natural/spiritual/physical energies are perfectly balanced, Imperfect Sage Mode is still possible, when the 3 energies are just almost close to balanced, like in Jiraiya and Kabuto's cases.
 * Kabuto is the same case as Mitsuki, he has Jugo Clan's powers, passively absorbing natural energy and fancy fluid which reacts to Senjutsu chakra, resulting in mutation called Sage Transformation. The difference between Kabuto and Mitsuki is, that Kabuto couldn't balance natural/spiritual/physical energies perfectly, resulting in an Imperfect Sage Mode, while Mitsuki seemingly has mastery over balancing 3 energies and his Senjutsu chakra is completely balanced, hence his Sage Transformation equals Sage Mode and more.
 * I like to think that if Kabuto were to master Senjutsu completely, his full Sage Transformation/Sage Mode form would change into something more akin to Mitsuki's, which certainly looks... special and powerful.--Elve Talk Page 13:30, August 7, 2016 (UTC)
 * @Omnibender Naruto Gaiden: The Road Illuminated by the Full Moon takes place while Boruto is in the academy, not the beginning of the movie. So Mitsuki had a opportunity to learn Sage Mode in between the two events, aka everything we are recording about his Sage Mode currently is irrelevant if he hadn't obtained it yet hmm. There's no counter argument to that, not to mention we're also speculating that his Sage Mode is perfect and he learned Snake Sage Mode which looks nothing like Kabuto's. --Sarada Uzumaki (talk) 00:38, August 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * I kind of get what you mean, but still impossible to turn off passive absorption of natural energy and do it actively like Naruto does, no counter argument to that. His transformation involved ethereal snakes, I very much doubt his is a toad Sage Mode. The fact that bonus illustration shows Mitsuki exactly as he appeared in that special, when other stuff has clearly not happened yet is also there, shows that this is what he looks like transformed. By nature of having ST, that's going to influence his SM. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:41, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

Firstly, this states that he can only use Sage Mode doesn't mean that his transformation is in fact just Sage Mode, because it's obvious that there's at least some Sage Transformation in it, unless Orochimaru did something. So either Mitsuki can use both abilities, Orochimaru did something, or that they left out Sage Transformation or wrote Sage Mode by mistake.

Secondly, if Mitsuki's transformation is in fact Sage Transformation but classified as Sage Mode, it doesn't mean he achieved Sage Mode through means of Sage Transformation or whatever, because they are totally different things. Balancing the energies perfectly doesn't make him a Perfected Sage Mode user, what you're trying to say, is more like a Perfected Sage Transformation.

Thirdly, I don't think Mitsuki is stated to be a Perfected Sage Mode user at all, so I don't know why he's classified as one. -- Georgio722 (talk) 15:35, August 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * Come on... how come people still don't understand all this... Sage Transformation with all 3 energies balanced IS Sage Mode, for Sage Transformation is nothing more than Sage Mode or Imperfect Sage Mode with added bonus of mutation/shapeshifting ability.--Elve Talk Page 17:45, August 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not 100% certain, but I think what they're arguing is Mitsuki's version having the three energies balanced, like Naruto and Minato did, versus the energies not being perfectly balanced, like Jiraiya did. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:31, August 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, there might not be an official statement saying it's perfect, but there also is nothing saying that it's not perfect. Its perfection is based solely on Kabuto's having been imperfect and looking different from Mitsuki's.--Elve Talk Page 19:42, August 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * Of course Kabuto's Sage Mode/Sage Transformation would look different to Mitsuki's, because Sage Transformation gives the user unique body alterations. Plus, Kabuto has Orochimaru's DNA, so that makes him even more snake-like than what Mitsuki could achieve by just using Snake Sage Mode. -- Georgio722 (talk) 13:20, August 11, 2016 (UTC)
 * So you're saying, if Jugo balanced the energies perfectly, he turns into a Sage Mode user? Wouldn't it make more sense if Sage Mode and Sage Transformation are two separate things? Because no matter how perfect you balanced your energies, Sage Transformation would still have the mutation side effect, which is more than enough to distinguish between the two. Or are you saying that there would be no mutation after perfectly balancing the energies? Or in other words, you're classifying the excessive animal traits shown by Jiraiya as Sage Transformation, correct? -- Georgio722 (talk) 13:20, August 11, 2016 (UTC)
 * That's what I'm saying, yes. Sage Transformation user can use Sage Mode, as shown by Kabuto who had an imperfect one like Jiraiya or by Mitsuki, whose status is at least presumed to be perfectly balanced. Sage Mode is an enhanced physical state achieved by Senjutsu chakra, which is a merger and has to be a perfect or close to perfect balance of physical, spiritual and natural energies. Just because their bodies react to Senjutsu chakra by mutating (Sage Transformation) doesn't mean that when balanced, the Senjutsu chakra doesn't grant Sage Mode. No, there still would be mutation for Sage Transformation user who has achieved level of perfect Sage Mode and no, Jiraiya did imperfect Sage Mode no Sage Transformation.--Elve  Talk Page 14:59, August 11, 2016 (UTC)