Talk:Orochimaru

Revival...?
I didin't understand very well that thing about "revival"...Orochimaru "injects" some part of his consciousness into the ones he bites with his juinjutsu and then that "piece of his mind" takes his form with the flesh of the host ?--177.33.246.101 (talk) 23:20, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

You know as much as we do ... likely Voldemort style--Elveonora (talk) 23:27, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

just random question
At least in the anime (I don't remember it in the manga) when Oro was about to suck Sasuke's neck to give him the Curse Mark, his face appeared all fucked up, any idea as of why?--Elveonora (talk) 21:46, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

When he was still posing as Shiore and his face-mask was ruined?-- Ninja Sheik  21:55, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

like this and this--Elveonora (talk) 22:04, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

Hmm... I don't really remember the fight all too well, but wasn't those images just part of something Sasuke imagined. Or was it in one of his dreams? Don't remember.-- Ninja Sheik  22:08, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

It appeared a second before Sasuke's neck got bitten by Oro--Elveonora (talk) 22:13, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

Then it has to be his imagination in middle of fear, seeing as Oro as a real demon coming after him. Probably added in the anime for dramatic effect, if you ask me.-- Ninja Sheik  22:18, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

It's exactly for that reason Sheik. The face seems modelled after an oni as well (I don't know if you guys follow Avatar) but a yokai that is said to steal the faces of people. Nothing more.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 11:56, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

Makes sense, thanks for answer.--Elveonora (talk) 14:57, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

His height?
Sorry, but why is orochimaru's height decreased? in part 1 it's 179,4 cm and in part 2 it's decreased to 172 cm? are you sure it's not wrong? it's really strange that someone's height is shortened... eh, sorry. the weight too?

virgo dandela --180.254.117.108 (talk) 12:56, August 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * They would've changed because he switched bodies at the end of part 1. TricksterKing (talk) 13:02, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

The creepy chick body was taller that the guy body.--Elveonora (talk) 13:52, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

sealed by totsuka...
Some articles (Kusanagi Sword included) state that Orochimaru had been sealed by Itachi before being revived by Sasuke. That's incorrect, he had escaped such fate and got burnt by Amaterasu.--Elveonora (talk) 16:57, August 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Which is speculation. We know he got stabbed by sealing sword. We don't know what the hell that snake was. It could be as you said, it could be foreshadowing that there was a way he could be brought back. We don't know anything about the snake. We do know what Itachi's sword can do.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:03, August 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * When it comes to Orochimaru's life it's all up in the air. It is in fact true that we have no idea what those snakes would have gone on to do, but people speculate that he would have been revived through one of them which is not unbelievable, still, as it is now, he was sealed by the sword.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 17:05, August 10, 2012 (UTC)

Speculation is saying he got sealed, as later manga chapters and logic disprove such. There would be no reason to draw panels with snakes escaping and getting killed if it were just random/generic snakes/summons. It was obviously Orochimaru escaping the sealing, for further detail http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Elveonora#Re:_Kusanagi_-_Oro_edit and http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:TheUltimate3#Kusanagi_-_Oro_edit --Elveonora (talk) 17:13, August 10, 2012 (UTC)

1) Yes.    2) Speculation on my part, but it explains why he didn't need to use the Releasing Method to pop out of the seal. 3) Indeed. Because Sealed in permanent genjutsu = deader than dead.    4) And Orochimaru had his consciousness alive and well in Anko's seal. How else would he be aware of everything that Anko is aware of in respects to the war if he was chillin in dead world all this time? 5) And you know this how?    6) Kishimoto doesn't make many things obvious. It seems obvious to you because it helps reach a conclusion that makes sense to you. When you are forced to look at things objectively, you are left with more questions than answers, hence it's not certain

--Elveonora (talk) 17:25, August 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * at least on something you agree with me
 * it was a different case, as Anko had Orochimaru's chakra/consciousness sealed in her, while Sasuke Orochimaru's soul, the latter broke free because Sasuke got short on chakra so there was nothing to hold Orochimaru back
 * again, there's only one soul and it's obviously walking around in a body thus was not sealed anywhere... proofs:
 * 1) if it was possible for a soul to be hosted in 2 different bodies (Tobi-Madara originally thought) they wouldn't disprove the masked man being who is claiming to be automatically, thus it's not possible.
 * 2) Anko was branded with Cursed Seal before Part I. and Orochimaru that came out of her knows everything that have happened so far, thus it's not like that one don't remember getting pwned by Sasuke and Itachi
 * His soul went into Anko's Cursed Seal likely after he got burnt
 * "Naruto, I will never meet Jiraiya sensei again as I will be molested by Orochimaru in a drunken dream world" "Naruto, I won't meet up with Minato because I'm not really your mother, just chakra" Naruto is stupid, those things were said to make him feel better and not sad
 * as since it's not obvious to you, that's why it's being discussed now

Sorry for triple-post, but stating "seemingly" sealed fixes ALL the issues and it's a good compromise for both sides--Elveonora (talk) 17:29, August 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * I do enjoy numbered responses.
 * 2) Different and the same. It's odd. Orochimaru is odd.
 * 3) Except we know Tobi was in fact lying about being Madara.
 * 4) Orochimaru is aware of Tobi's war. He was sealed before that war started. He said he knew what was going on because he could see it from Anko's seal. Not sure what you are getting at about him for whatever reason not remembering his defeat but /shrug.
 * 5) Or it was always there. See how this works yet?
 * 6) And this comes from...?
 * 7) It's not obvious. Like I said, you believe it's obvious because it reaches a conclusion you but together. There are many things it could have meant.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:36, August 10, 2012 (UTC)

Orochimaru's consciousness did not "shift" his consciousness is within every single person that has received his cursed seal. You're using speculation to string your own conclusions together. Sasuke could have gone to any one of the cursed seal recipients and revived Orochimaru.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 17:43, August 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * 3) What I mean is that just as Edo Madara was revived, they found out that Tobi is not Madara. If it was possible for Tobi to be Madara as well like 1 soul 2 bodies, they wouldn't disprove it right away.
 * 4) Yes. What I'm getting at is that his chakra/mind was put into Anko before Part I. but it appears he remember everything thus getting pwned and absorbed by Sasuke, Itachi fight etc. thus it's not like this one is pre-part II. Oro and all the knowledge of current events he has is just thanks to Anko
 * 5) Sarutobi sealed a part of Oro's soul into Death guy and his arms rotted, thus it doesn't appear like it's exactly Voldemort style, thus putting a part of his soul into many cursed seals, just chakra and we know his is conscious.
 * 6) common sense and from what Kishi has established, the "Kushina" in Naruto was a chakra thus her soul being long in the pure world, while I don't think Itachi's Sword and afterlife share the same space
 * 7) we can argue for days, or make some compromises like "presumably, seemingly, it appears, likely" not stating something as 100% confirmed and clear while it's not--Elveonora (talk) 17:47, August 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * 8) @Cerez, only if Orochimaru's soul was available, you think there can be 10 Orochimarus walking around??? ...--Elveonora (talk) 17:47, August 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * 3)But Tobi was not Madara. The entire thing was to show that he was in fact lying. I'm no longer sure how this even relates anymore.
 * 4)Do note that anything Naruto's shadow clones learn or kno get's transferred to his original body. It is possible for knowledge to remain within the consciousness, no matter how divided it ends up.
 * 5)Which helps prove my argument so I'm not sure where you are going with this.
 * 6)And this again helps prove my point. Kushina remained in Naruto because part of her conciousness was within Naruto's seal, just as Orochimaru remained in his Cursed Seals.
 * 7)But what I'm getting at is there is no presumably. We know how the sword works. We don't know how that snake works.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:02, August 10, 2012 (UTC)

--Elveonora (talk) 18:13, August 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * proved it's not possible to be in 2 different bodies at the same time, thus there can be only 1 soul in 1 body because some thought Tobi to be half Madara's soul, indicating that since Orochimaru's soul got sucked as you say by Totsuka then there shouldn't be one walking around. That's because his soul didn't get sealed.
 * it's different as stuff transfer from shadow clones to original after being dispelled, in Orochimaru's case that would mean part of Oro watching from Anko since from years ago and some other part getting sucked by Itachi, this isn't Harry Potter where all souls of Voldemort were connected, unless Kishi confirms so.
 * if Oro had separated and put part of his soul into others before, he would be long rotted
 * yes, the difference being that Orochimaru's soul as well stayed around, not just consciousness
 * we know how the sword works, but you can't say for sure Orochimaru's soul got sucked by it, while there obviously were the snakes around
 * you guys are basically saying, that as long as Sasuke has Orochimaru's DNA and finds any cursed seal hosts, he can unseal as many Orochimarus as he want "herp derp"


 * 1)So you're going to use what people speculated outside of universe to what we we were told inside of universe? It doesn't work that way. The entire Madara/Tobi thing about what the hell he was is on a completely different level than this. We know Orochimaru had his consciousness in his seals. We have no idea what is up with Tobi and trying to link the former with fan speculations of the later will ruin your argument.
 * 2) I'm starting to notice a very big break between our viewpoints and why this keeps going around and around. You keep pointing out souls. I keep pointing out consciousness.
 * 3) Pardon? I think this is linked to the misconception of the whole "soul vs consciousness" thing.
 * 4) Now I'm sure there is a break in viewpoints.
 * 5) That's exactly what it means. And it makes logical sense. Orochimaru's entire goal was the not die. By making it so that in the event that he does exactly that, his cursed seals will act as soul jars to keep him moving. It of course has one noticeable flaw, it requires someone else to keep bringing him back and if for whatever reason you don't want to do so, he's kinda boned.
 * Now getting of the numbered responses, lets take a moment to address this break. You are under the impression that his soul would be sealed in the genjutsu which would make him beyond the means of revival through the Unsealing Method because his soul wouldn't be in the Pure World correct? This assumes a lot of things, one of them being the nature of the genjutsu. According to Nagato when he got sealed, the genjutsu is the afterlife. Which would mean if Orochimaru was in fact, sealed there, he was killed. But we saw Orochimaru come back, and we know it was because his chakra, and parts of his consciousness was within the seals, and when used correctly, allowed him to return, as we've seen. You bring up the white snake as proof that he wasn't sealed. You claim it was to show that he escaped. However, as I've said, I don't see it as such. I see it as foreshadowing that Orochimaru could avoid permanent death on that field and now we know he has.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 19:14, August 10, 2012 (UTC)

--Elveonora (talk) 19:46, August 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure what you are on about, it isn't proved that a soul can be separated and put into multiple bodies in Naruto-verse, if it was possible, Tobi could be Madara but they automatically disproved as such after the sight of the Edo-ed real one.
 * I guess so, consciousness = mind not soul.
 * Neither Pure or Impure worlds, genjutsu dream of drunken dreams inside of a sword jar I consider a separate space from both.
 * Again, that's not what Nagato said. It was simply to make Naruto think he goes to same place as Jiraiya
 * Wait, wait ... I say his body got sealed but soul not as he switched to the snakes.
 * There's flaw in your logic: You say there can be an infinite number of Orochimarus around... not it's just dumb and unlikely, but also since you say Totsuka Sword = Afterlife/Pure World, then that would mean an other Orochimaru can be brought back by Edo Tensei and there would be 2 walking around
 * 1) I'm still not seeing how this is linked to our argument, especially with an enigma like Tobi.
 * 2) And what does that have to do with Orochimaru?
 * 3 and 4) And how do you know that is what Nagato was trying to do? How do you know he wasn't in fact going to where Jiraiya is.
 * 5) And this is where our break comes in. You say Orochimaru's soul escaped sealing. I say nothing escaped sealing and he was done in. You believe his soul somehow flew from the dead snake into Anko's seal. I'm saying nothing of the sort happened and Orochimaru's consciousness was always in the seal
 * 6) The supposed flaw in my argument suggests the idea his soul being split. I make no such assumptions. I say Orochimaru was sealed Itachi, which basically equated to him being killed. Because his chakra/consciousness was safely tucked away in his last cursed seal, he escaped permanent death. Also, we don't know if that exact thing CAN happen. It's completely in the realm of possibility because we simply don't know.
 * And with that I suggest we stop this back and forth and let others come in. Because clearly there is a break that neither of us are going to get through discussing it amongst ourselves. This will be my last comment on the matter until more chime in.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 20:24, August 10, 2012 (UTC)

Right, I'd like an opinion of others as well --Elveonora (talk) 22:39, August 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * without soul and a physical form, there's no mind/consciousness
 * I don't want to offend you... but you should read twice. Are you saying that the "heavens/underworld/pure world/other life/whatever" are inside Totsuka's jar?
 * Orochimaru's chakra was always in the seal, the snakes that got burnt were obviously him because Kishimoto wouldn't bother drawing that. The way I see it, he was killed by Amaterasu but his soul stayed in the "impure world" due to his chakra still being bound to a physical form- Anko.
 * again, if chakra/dna/consciousness were enough to make a person, Kabuto was/would had become Orochimaru

Right, I believe Orochimaru is the most annoying character when it comes on to life and death. Nevertheless, he was sealed by the Totsuka Sword, that is what we know. Those snakes irregardless of what they would have done cannot be taken into account because we do not know for certain what would have happened if they had escaped even if it might be plain as day to you. I keep telling you that we have to record what we see, not what we speculate about. It's fine and whatnot to have in his article that the two snakes ran off and got killed nonetheless but we cannot say "Orochimaru got sealed by the Totsuka Sword but right before two snakes flew off and that was obviously him but they got killed and that's how he died" technically it would be incorrect to even mention his soul "shifting" to Anko's seal '~'. If there was an official source that said yes Oro would have been reborn from those snakes that would be fine but we cannot perpetrate that on the wiki.

As for the rest of the discussion I won't bother elaborating on that because
 * I'm not a fan of people talking about where souls go when they die in a specific way because it's simply irrelevant.
 * I'd also like you to remember that Orochimaru's cells were in fact taking over Kabuto but he took control of them with (assuming) willpower.
 * The same thing is painfully obvious every time someone uses Hashirama's cells and his face starts popping out of their body. I believe the Hashirama's Living Clone is also a prime example of this, sans a consciousness. Danzo had to heavily seal the arm and constantly worry about using Wood Release when he did. If that's not apparent to you then this discussion is going nowhere.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 10:21, August 11, 2012 (UTC)

The point being, Orochimaru wasn't sucked in, not what would he have done if it wasn't for the snakes dying.
 * What are you guys talking about??? I'm not even discussing what those snakes would have done, I'm saying it was obviously Orochimaru that had escaped the sealing but got killed by Amaterasu, I'm not even speculating on that, like you do.
 * Orochimaru wouldn't had been reborn from the snakes because he didn't die from the "sealing" the snakes were something like a Body Replacement Technique or Gathering of the Snakes the only thing that got sucked in was his body.
 * Kabuto wouldn't have become Orochimaru if the DNA took over. Just Kabuto with mind and appearance of him.
 * Exactly, without a soul there's no consciousness
 * Danzo wouldn't have turned turned into Hashirama, just into a tree as his arm did.--Elveonora (talk) 14:43, August 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * Not doing a full response, because I still hunger for more opinions, but do want to point out;
 * "What are you guys talking about??? I'm not even discussing what those snakes would have done, I'm saying it was obviously Orochimaru that had escaped the sealing but got killed by Amaterasu, I'm not even speculating on that, like you do.

The point being, Orochimaru wasn't sucked in, not what would he have done if it wasn't for the snakes dying."


 * this quote is the speculation. You assume to know what the snake is doing, that orochimaru survied, ect. Me and Cerez are saying, we don't know if any of that is true. What we all do know is that the sword seals the one that gets stabbed by it.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 15:20, August 11, 2012 (UTC)

So they were there for nothing, good to know... there are things like reading comprehension and insight. Those snakes can do nothing because they are dead, so that's not even part of the problem. I'm saying those snakes were him because there's no point in showing: You see it: Oro was sealed but "likely/presumably" one could have revived him with the snakes but we don't list speculations, I see it: "he was the snakes" that's the problem between us, not to mention the whole soul vs consciousness thing--Elveonora (talk) 16:03, August 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * random snakes escaping
 * getting killed


 * I feel like this is the Tobi issue all over again... Nobody said they were there for no reason. But you are not Masashi Kishimoto, therefore you cannot assume what purpose they would have served and have it represented here as fact. Yes the snakes detached themselves, suppose they were going off to live a happy life in a hole somewhere? or else tell his grandmother that he wouldn't be home? I'm sure you haven't seen us deny that Orochimaru would have been reborn from those snakes but we simply cannot state it as fact. Yes there are things such as "reading comprehension and insight"- I don't know why you believe you have more than the rest of us- but there is also knowing your own limitations as a reader of the manga and a wikipedia editor. Bottom line is we cannot take those snakes into account because there are a million different things they could have ended up doing.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 17:51, August 11, 2012 (UTC)

Neither one can assume and state it as a fact that Orochimaru got sealed when now he is walking around, making explanations that suit your own interpretations. I'm basing that solely on that one can't exist without a soul, a part of his soul cut (arms) caused him to rot, thus stating he put part of it to every cursed seal host contradicts that, while it was stated in manga to be just chakra. He appears to remember all the events (not talking about the knowledge of the war, like using Sasuke and all), making up that it's all connected Voldemort style is just pure speculation. What I offer is the most logical and in-canon explainable option--Elveonora (talk) 19:58, August 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * If that's the case than technically, me and Cerez "win". You say you based on the fact that a soul can't be in two places at once, and yet Mu has the ability to split himself into two or more parts. They succeeded in sealing Mu only for him to escape the sealing with ditching half his chakra in the seal.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:38, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

We don't know how Mu's technique works. It appears that the debate is pointless, there was no reason to revert my edit in the first place.--Elveonora (talk) 21:12, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand what is happening... Firstly I think you need to understand that Orochimaru's "consciousness" and his "soul" are not the same things. Orochimaru specifically said he poured Senjutsu chakra into Anko's seal which his consciousness also inhabited. I don't understand why him undergoing necrosis, or Harry Potter has to do with this. What Sasuke did was give that consciousness that Oro left in Anko a form, work with what we get in the manga, not your own interpretations that "one cannot exist without a soul". Sometimes people over-analyse everything in the series too much which makes me wonder how they get any enjoyment out of it.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 09:59, August 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * Indeed, this argument is getting circular, so let's get down to business. I'm for removing the "seemingly" at the point where he got sealed, because all evidence points to him being sealed.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 10:06, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree. I just wanted the intro to be more up-to-date with whats happened with him.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 10:10, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

LOL, whatever... list false and unconfirmed information, I don't care.--Elveonora (talk) 15:39, August 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Unless you help Masashi write the manga and can tell us explicitly what those snakes would have gone on and done, I think we have our bases covered.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:47, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

Talk about bias and ignorance... first, there was not a single reason to revert my edit on the Kusanagi page, nor there is to remove "seemingly" The page is about the sword, no reason to mention Orochimaru being sucked there. The latter is less speculative with seemingly, because he from my view, obviously wasn't sealed, but you think your shit smells better than mine.--Elveonora (talk) 15:55, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

My dear friend Cerez, can you please explain how come this conversation did conclude? Explain to me why do we have to rip each other each time, what's bad about seemingly?--Elveonora (talk) 16:49, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

Orochimaru's Defection
Does anyone tell me Orochimaru defected from the village before or after Minato's dead ? thanks 65.49.14.79 (talk) 17:40, August 10, 2012 (UTC)GOd


 * Most likely before. We dont have an exact timeframe of how long Minato was Hokage, but we do know Orochimaru got sloppy and caught after Hiruzen made Minato Hokage instead of him.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:53, August 10, 2012 (UTC)

Calculate it, Oro was still a Konoha Ninja when he first met Kabuto, the latter was like 7-8 years old and now is 23. Thus shortly after Minato's death Oro was still in Konoha. Tobi attacked Konoha a year after the 3rd Shinobi World War had ended, thus was a Hokage for circa a year or less.--Elveonora (talk) 18:03, August 10, 2012 (UTC)

It may have been closer to two years, since Kakashi was 12 during Kakashi Gaiden and 14 during the Nine-Tails attack.--BeyondRed (talk) 21:18, August 10, 2012 (UTC)

He was 13--Elveonora (talk) 22:22, August 10, 2012 (UTC)

He was 13 during the Kakashi Gaiden and 14 and 25 days during the Kyuubi attack, all can be calculated from their birthdates and ages, Oro left either right before the Kyuubi Attack or after the Kyuubi Attack. 173.66.119.89 (talk) 02:06, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

late reply, and read above. Oro met 9-10 years old Kabuto, thus at least 3 years after Kurama attack, Oro was still a Konoha shinobi--Elveonora (talk) 02:10, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Orochimaru Fire Element
Hey everyone. So I was watching Naruto Episode 29. In this episode Orochimaru is fighting Naruto and he uses what appears to be a Fire Element: Grand Fireball Technique. I'm not really sure who edits this bio page, but I wanted to help out. Please watch the video (- -no links ಠ_ಠ- -) and go to 14:15.
 * What you saw was him igniting his Wind Release: Great Breakthrough technique.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 20:43, September 24, 2012 (UTC)

Oh I see now. Thanks for the info!

Reaper Death Seal
Suigetsu seems to be under the impression the only reason Sasuke beat Orochimaru was because he was still handicapped by the Reaper Death Seal, but I thought that swapping bodies at the end of Part 1 cured him. Clarification? 207.216.193.120 (talk) 03:21, September 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * People are entitled to their beliefs. Orochimaru did switch bodies but it was severely weakened or possibly defective but by the time Sasuke decided to kill his master, Kabuto was preparing to give him level 10 medicine, it may be possible that this was due to the effects of the Shinigami taking his hands.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 10:38, September 25, 2012 (UTC)

Orochimaru's stance in the War
This is likely the most speculative and forum-ish thing I have ever posted outside of the very few posts on forums I've made; but is it possible that Orochimaru can make an impact for the Allied Shinobi Forces in the War? I mean what would be the point in Sasuke bringing him back if he doesn't help to make an impact with the current conflicts? 165.138.142.66 (talk) 18:10, October 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Orochimaru has stated that he has 0 interest in the war. Whatever he does will possibly be minimal in the way of helping Sasuke with whatever it is that he's looking for.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 18:24, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks again Cerez :) 165.138.142.66 (talk) 18:35, October 23, 2012 (UTC)

Tell me a reason not to delete this, for first: Also remember that Madara is free now, enemy of my enemy is my friend. He might very possibly even help.
 * 1) You know as much as the rest of us do
 * 2) Not a forum
 * 3) Cerez isn't Kishimoto, so I don't see how is he authorized to answer
 * 4) His strongest Edo Tensei is currently trying to make the whole world a dreamland, that hinders with Orochimaru's ambitions of world ruled by him along with omniscience and omnipotence, there can't be 2 kings sitting on the same throne... Madara was likely his trump card one way or another... now that the whole joint army is battling Kabuto/Madara/Obito, Konoha is defenseless, giving him an opportunity. Just because he says otherwise doesn't mean he isn't lying.

One way or another, none of us knows so further discussion is pointless, Kishi likes to twist things --Elveonora (talk) 22:05, October 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * I know that -_- Go ahead and delete it. I'm not stupid nor am I ashamed of the simple question I asked. 165.138.142.66 (talk) 12:51, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

Team Orochimaru
Page for it... yay or nay?--Elveonora (talk) 20:52, November 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * Suppose Anko is in the same boat as Shizune or Sakura with Tsunade and Jiraiya and Naruto?--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 20:56, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

No, those 3 were a genin team as they took an exam together, and Anko is known to have had only Orochimaru as a sensei. Even if Sakura/Shizune and Naruto were "students" of those respective people, they didn't make any team together--Elveonora (talk) 21:16, November 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * She is known to have one but suppose he wasn't their jōnin sensei? Supposed Orochimaru took a liking to Anko and decided to deciple her? That unknown is why we can't assume there was ever a "Team Orochimaru" as much as there being a "Team Tsunade".--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 21:55, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

I know exactly what you mean, but their relationship is strong and there was never a mention of some other person... what's more speculative, team Orochimaru or another sensei theory?--Elveonora (talk) 22:46, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the first fanbook has a page showing the various genin teams and includes two question mark spaces next to Anko beneath Orochimaru, implying that he did have a full genin team.--BeyondRed (talk) 02:59, November 7, 2012 (UTC)

Even then, we know Kabuto's Trainer was on her genin team as well. So what are the odds of this guy, being on the same team as Orochimaru's old student, then ending up as the sensei to three of Orochimaru's spies? I know they say two times is a coincidence, but not in writing it isn't. Seems pretty much unfeasible that this guy crosses paths with Orochimaru's disciples twice as teammates and yet was never mentored by the guy. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 05:32, November 7, 2012 (UTC)

Exactly, we must also take into consideration that he made no appearance in manga after exams, anime doesn't count. For what he know, he is Orochimaru's spy as well and had left the village. Chances of the three not being ex-team Orochimaru are slim--Elveonora (talk) 13:49, November 7, 2012 (UTC)

personality edit
I agree with the arrogance part, but it's not entirely correct. He agreed himself as inferior to Itachi, even wanting Sasuke's body first so he could have stood a chance. Sasuke one the other hand, was nothing more than a vessel for him that he had underestimated, attempting to take over despite being the weaker one at the time. Another example would be Madara's Edo Tensei, trying to control powers he himself can't fathom (Sharingan and Hashi's DNA lol) That's all ._. maybe we should also mention that the word failure says nothing to Orochimaru... playing with fire despite being burnt... one doesn't simply die once--Elveonora (talk) 00:05, November 20, 2012 (UTC)

number of missions
yeah i know this was talked about already but his number of missions was stated as (while in the leaf village) in one of the data books. should we put it here if its in a databook209.56.53.1 (talk) 18:50, December 7, 2012 (UTC) naruhina4ever


 * so can i change it???209.56.53.1 (talk) 17:59, December 14, 2012 (UTC)NaruHina4ever

I think since the databook has put the part "while in the leaf village" i think it should be after his missions. Because who knows he could have had more missions when he was in the sound village. even though he is a leader of a village doesnt mean he doesnt go out of the village like when he went to that bridge with kabuto to see sasori that could have been a mission and since he could have went on a "mission" like that before the start of the series i think the "while in konoha" should be added. 12.213.112.36 (talk) 16:28, December 26, 2012 (UTC) NaruHina4ever
 * After he left Konoha, he could not have done any other official missions because he would be a missing-nin. Then as the founder of Otogakure, he would not have gone on any missions either. Ergo, the addition of "while in the Leaf Village" is moot because there's nowhere else he could have completed official missions.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 16:35, December 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * oww not even in his own village??12.213.112.36 (talk) 19:19, December 26, 2012 (UTC) NaruHina4ever
 * Village leaders don't go on missions do they.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 19:53, December 26, 2012 (UTC)

I think it was mentioned early on that S-rank Missions are reserved for high ranking Jounin and village leaders. Not to mention, while not exactly canon, we've seen A and Tsunade both undertake missions while in office. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 20:03, December 26, 2012 (UTC)

but still before he was a leader of a village he was in akastuki and they did missions for villages for cheap to get money, and all thoughs guys/gale were criminals. 67.54.176.39 (talk) 15:04, December 27, 2012 (UTC) NaruHina4ever
 * Those are not official missions. Official missions can only be given by a Kage/possibly a village leader. That is why there's no need to mention the in Konoha bit, because after he left Konoha, he never carried out another official mission.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:07, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Onoki hired akastuki all the time, last i checked he was a kage. 67.54.176.53 (talk) 18:28, December 27, 2012 (UTC) NaruHina4ever
 * Still would not be an official mission. Nothing Akatsuki related would be considered official. They were a means to an ends.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 18:39, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

sensor?
The latest chapter indicated that he might be one.--Elveonora (talk) 15:20, January 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * No.~ Ultimate  Supreme  15:31, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

hmm, I guess no, depends on the translation--Elveonora (talk) 15:36, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

I read the MangaStream and MangaPanda translation, both which stated that Orochimaru is not a Sensory-type ninja, but he, along with Taka, can still sense Naruto's chakra since it's so strong.-- Ninja Sheik  22:05, January 16, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, this needs to be checked and resolved... some user translations also make it seem like Orochimaru is a sensor, also the latest chapter's "ms" translation say he can sense Hashirama's chakra cause he remembers it from his experiments--Elveonora (talk) 14:36, January 30, 2013 (UTC)

Sensing a presence isn't the same as sensing chakra. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:56, January 30, 2013 (UTC)

Unless he is an oracle, it's a sensory ability. That's why I'd like a correct translation of that, it seems important and details like these shouldn't go unnoticed--Elveonora (talk) 20:59, January 30, 2013 (UTC)

White Snakes
Should a page be created for the ability Orochimaru (and later Kabuto) uses to create white snakes from his body? Looking at how they're drawn in the manga, it would appear that the snakes he used for "Gathering of the Snakes" were of this variety, as well as the one he transformed his arm into and the ones he used for his Hidden Shadow Snake Hands and Snake Authority Spell (it was coloured white on volume 41's cover). The snakes he actually summons, including those that emerge from his mouth, are noticeably different.--BeyondRed (talk) 02:51, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

His ability to summon snakes directly from his body is already noted, or at least it should be--Elveonora (talk) 15:21, February 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * I was more referring to the fact that he can apparently "grow" white snakes out of his body. Kabuto used the ability a lot more, but Orochimaru had at least one clear usage (after being hit by the Totsuka Sword) and several more in the manga. At one point he literally transforms his arm into a snake, just as Kabuto did with his whole lower half. I was thinking such a page could include those techniques and Gathering of the Snakes, but come to think of it, maybe this ability could be noted on the Power of the White Snake article instead--BeyondRed (talk) 15:36, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Living Corpse Reincarnation
It appears he indeed has taken over Zetsu ._. any objection to adding Wood Release to his infobox and updating his hosts page with White Zetsu?--Elveonora (talk) 19:18, February 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * What's the hurry? Is the world ending tomorrow? Otherwise why not wait until we get confirmation? Jacce | Talk | Contributions 19:28, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Hurry would be to state such right from the gasp, a week has passed, he cheated death dude with scythe, transferred into another body and the Zetsu is gone--Elveonora (talk) 19:37, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

None of the Zetsu clones have demonstrated the Mokuton techniques. Even though we knew at the start of the flashback that Obito had Hashirama's Cells, we didn't list him as having Wood Release until he actually used it. This is no different. --M4ND0N (talk) 04:12, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

I see, I don't care about Wood Release that much, what bothers me more are the differences, as earlier, his snake body looked like many white snakes merged together with a head and he swallowed his victims, this time he looked more like Kabuto's snake form and entered his victim's mouth like a parasite or something 0_o creepy and cruel if you ask me--Elveonora (talk) 21:04, February 6, 2013 (UTC)

reason for transfering
Okay, figured I should start a topic on this to prevent edit wars. X29 and Gojita disagree with me. Sasuke said that Orochimaru is the only one who could manage this, that's because of his Living Corpse Reincarnation. The stomach wound wasn't the reason, he is almost impossible to destroy by physical damage. LCR has 3 years cooldown, he wouldn't waste that for such thing as he naturally regenerates faster than normal humans, has Body Shedding that nullifies any damage as long as he can use it and 4 tailed Naruto sliced him in half to no avail, Itachi pierced him whole with Totsuka Sword and he even commented how that can't kill him. So please... --Elveonora (talk) 17:06, February 7, 2013 (UTC)


 * The problem appears to be that people have forgotten what the Dead Demon Consuming Seal does. When the Shinigami appears, the caster dies. Orochimaru's body was going to die, so he jumped ship. So no, he did not leave his body to simply heal a wound, he did so to not die.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:32, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Tell that to X29 and Gojita--Elveonora (talk) 17:39, February 7, 2013 (UTC)


 * I just did. Here.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:43, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, thanks, tho sometimes you need to spell things twice or more times to some people's face. I like your edit, if people find the Death God taking Oro's soul as speculative, then this is the best way, as it surely wasn't for the cut stomach.--Elveonora (talk) 18:22, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

This isn't quite the same topic, but would Orochimaru have gained any sort of Senju powers by jumping to the Zetsu body? That seems like it would be a good reason to jump, too. He probably jumped from his body to save his life like it was said above, but am I right to assume that he gained more from it? It says in the Zetsu page that they can use wood release and are basically pale imitations of the 1st. Adam10003 (talk) 22:36, February 7, 2013 (UTC)Adam

It surely is part of a plan of his, but this isn't the topic to discuss that.--Elveonora (talk) 22:51, February 7, 2013 (UTC)

Zetsu body = Wood Release?
With the recent chapter and Tobirama's words, it's looking likely Orochimaru possesses the Wood Release now that he has a Zetsu body which means Hashirama's DNA. All those who acquire his DNA get the Wood Release so should he be put as a presumed user?--OmegaRasengan (talk) 07:17, February 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * It is highly likely yes. As you've said, everyone with Hashirama's DNA has acquired Wood Release, and Tobirama heavily implied it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 07:49, February 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * It might be time for us to add this after all.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 07:52, February 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * I went ahead and did it. There is certainly enough evidence to suggest within strong reason that he does. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 07:53, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

Not sure if we should be jumping the gun right away. We knew Obito had Hashirama's DNA at the first chapter of the flashback, but we didn't physically add Wood Release to his infobox until he used it. Orochimaru no doubt has Hashirama's DNA, but he hasn't been shown using Wood Release yet, so I see no reason to add it until he does. --M4ND0N (talk) 20:56, February 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * That isn't the point being made here. The point is, everyone we have seen thus far to obtain Hashirama's DNA, can use Wood Release. Danzō, Yamato, Madara, Zetsu, the whole shibang. We have a canon precedent to go by. Its not jumping the gun because that is the standard that has been set. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:52, February 13, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not saying it isn't 99.9% likely that Orochimaru can use Wood Release, I'm saying that we shouldn't list it until he actually uses it. Using Obito as an example again, we knew he had Hashirama's DNA all the way back to when he fought Konan and used Izanagi, but did we put Wood Release in his infobox then? I understand where you're coming from but until he actually uses it, there's absolutely no reason to list it other than a reference to Hashirama's DNA in his abilities section. Saying Orochimaru can use Wood Release just because everyone else using his DNA can would be the same as saying Kakashi and Obito can use Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi just because it's a "standard that has been set" from all the other Mangekyo users who've used those techniques. Obviously Wood Release is a pretty straightforward thing unlike Mangekyo techniques, but the point is we shouldn't list someone as having a Kekkei Genkai or jutsu until they actually use it, because then it becomes speculation no matter how likely it is. --M4ND0N (talk) 23:00, February 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * The Mangekyō Sharingan comparison is completely false. We've known since the start of Shippuden that each Mangekyo can have its own abilities. We saw Itachi's Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, then turn around and Kakashi has Kamui, then Susanoo was introduced, then Sasuke comes up with Enton. No, that was not a canon precedent. This is, however. It has happened every single time since the concept was introduced. No speculation is needed. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 23:11, February 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * M4NDON kinda has a point. We did wait for Obito to use Wood Release to list him as a user, so we should do the same for Orochimaru. Note that he has Hashirama's cells but using wood release may be an entirely different thing. So with that, I do think that's how we should proceed.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 23:15, February 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * If I understand LCR, Zetsu using it is all that is needed yes? Same body with all abilities just Oro behind the wheel so to speak. Arrancar79 (talk) 00:11, February 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * Indeed. Cerez, he is in Zetu's body. Zetsu can use Wood Release, therefore, so can Orochimaru. And we know Orochimaru's technique allows him to use any kekkei genkai used by the target, because that was the entire reason he wanted Sasuke's body. To be able to use his Sharingan. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 00:29, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * What Cerez was saying that yes, it is basically no matter what that Orochimaru can use Wood Release. BUT he has not used it yet, so, like how it was in Obito's case, it should not be listed.  As soon as it is used, it can be listed, but until then, it should just be noted that Orochimaru gained the 1st's cells.  Like the US Court System, when making a decision, you have to follow decisions that were already made about a topic very close to the present question.  But yes, most likely he has the Wood Release. It's just not supposed to be listed YET. Adam10003 (talk) 00:37, February 14, 2013 (UTC)Adam
 * But at the same time Ten Tailed Fox, there are several other things that a clone can do such as communicate with the original, copy someone's chakra and appearance, are we supposed to assume that Orochimaru can now do all of those things as well? We should note what has happened and what has been done, and leave readers to their own speculation. Basically, I'm working off what we did with Obito which seems the way we should go: mention the cells, and what he's done with them and leave the rest to unfold in time.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 00:45, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure about other techniques, but Orochimaru's Living Corpse Reincarnation if used on Sasuke would have given him the Sharingan, so that leads me to believe he would inherit kekkei genkai. I do not know about techniques such as Mayfly or things like that.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 02:39, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

The Sharingan thing was a bad point, I'll admit. I agree that Orochimaru most likely has access to Wood Release techniques, but I hate double standards. As soon as Orochimaru uses Wood Release, then we should list it.. until then it's just speculating what will most likely happen anyways, so why not be patient and wait before listing hypothetical abilities that he hasn't been shown using yet? It won't kill you to wait for a chapter to come out where he actually uses the technique, will it? --M4ND0N (talk) 03:52, February 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * That is not how facts work. We know Orochimaru's technique would've given him Sharingan, we have confirmation that his body is almost entirely Hashirama's cells, which has been confirmed to give the user Wood Release in every case we've seen, and from that, we can make a fair judgement that that is what happened. If Obito had such evidence stacked in his favor before he actually used it, it would've been added to him right then, but there wasn't. Since we are an encycolopedia that documents facts, we should, and the fact is this
 * Hashirama's cells have ALWAYS resulted in Wood Release in the receiver.
 * Orochimaru's Living Corpse Reincarnation gives use access to the kekkei genkai of the target.
 * Ergo, Orochimaru has Wood Release, so it should absolutely remain on the page. Period. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 04:48, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * I see listing Wood Release as a given but not any jutsu till they are used. Arrancar79 (talk) 05:12, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * That, I agree with, because we've never seen the jutsu of the user be transferred, but the kekkei genkai has always been transferred. That is fact. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 05:18, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * We didn't have enough evidence to assume Obito had Wood Release? Half his body was composed of exactly the same material Zetsu is made out of [and in turn Orochimaru], but we still didn't list it in the infobox until he actually used it. But I mean, you're the admin, so I guess it's pretty much settled. I still disagree but when/if Orochimaru starts using Wood Release techniques then it won't matter. --M4ND0N (talk) 05:42, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) I guess it would be better to wait until we actually see Orochimaru using it.--~ Ultimate  Supreme  05:50, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. --M4ND0N (talk) 06:37, February 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, I disagree. I think we have plenty of evidence to support the case for it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 06:47, February 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * Tobi as a point is what sets the precedence here. Before we have never seen what would happen if someone had parts of a White Zetsu crafted to their bodies, we now know that that person gains Wood Release. We already know that Orochimaru's Living Corpse Reincarnation gives him the kekkei genkai of the victim.Thus logically speaking, Orochimaru has access to Wood Release--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:53, February 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * Having access and actually using it are two different things.~ Ultimate  Supreme  12:19, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Aye, it's not that he can't use it, it's the speculation we'll be adding into the article when we say, because the Living Corpse Reincarnation technique grants persons access to a kekkei genkai, Orochimaru undoubtedly has the Wood Release kekkei genkai.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 13:44, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. Until he actually uses Wood Release it's speculation no matter what the precedence is. Is it likely that Orochimaru has access to it? Almost guaranteed, that's not the point though. If it's that likely that Orochimaru has access to Wood Release, why not wait until he uses it? It's not gonna kill anybody, and it's a more professional way of maintaining the article since [like Ultimate said] having access to it and using it are two totally different things, and until he uses it there's absolutely 0 confirmation from the manga that Orochimaru can use it, outside your very likely speculation. --M4ND0N (talk) 20:11, February 14, 2013 (UTC)

We know that people that have White Zetsu as apart of their body gain Wood Release. We know that Orochimaru's LCR gives him the kekkei genkai of the target. We know that every single case of Hashirama's cells being implanted into a user has resulted in Wood Release, so the arguments against it being added have no merit. It isn't picking and choosing. In both cases, we are making use of the information we have and adding the appropriate information to the article. Nothing we have put on the page has contradicted Kishi's manga. The fact is, like Danzō, Orochimaru may never use Wood Release techniques, but that doesn't mean he can't and it also doesn't mean he will. But we know, beyond a shadow of the doubt, that he can. That's all that matters, so it is added. So, Wood Release should stay. Edit: Also, it should be noted that Orochimaru is already manipulating Hashirama's cells to strengthen Edo Tensei, so we know he can access and use the information in Hashirama's cells. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 23:08, February 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * This shouldn't even be at question. Zetu's body didn't stop being capable of producing Wood Release chakra, it's still the same White Zetsu body Oro is just in control now. The other comparisons that have been used above are really nothing like LCR. Arrancar79 (talk) 00:09, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

Also if we go by this logic my dear Foxie, figure that perhaps not everyone with Hashirama's cells/dna automatically learns Wood Release? Obito was an exception, even Whirl Face Dude commented on how now he knows why Madara chose him, perhaps Oro doesn't have a natural talent for it or something like Obito did--Elveonora (talk) 01:29, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

Edited out the sage mode stuff and put it into a separate conversation. Adam10003 (talk) 01:52, February 15, 2013 (UTC)Adam

Sage Mode?
If we list him as a user of Wood Release, then we should also list him as having the Sage Mode, we can't choose individual cases, either we list both or none--Elveonora (talk) 14:15, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * I was under the impression couldn't even do do Sage Mode.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 20:50, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * He could, one can't use Senjutsu chakra without Sage Mode. All Kabuto says is that Oro couldn't find a host body strong enough to handle it--Elveonora (talk) 21:24, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Senjutsu chakra =/= Sage Mode. It is just required to use Sage Mode. Yes, there is a difference. Kabuto stated that Orochimaru hadn't yet found a body suitable to use Sage Mode, therefore, he cannot use Sage Mode. Sage Mode has been mentioned to be impossible for him in his current situation, so it is rightfully excluded. The Sage Mode argument is ridiculous. --Ten Tailed Fox' Yamagakure Symbol.svg 23:08, February 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Fox, by balancing natural energy with one's own chakra, senjutsu chakra is being created and the user enters sage mode, one can't go without the other.--Elveonora (talk) 01:02, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Elve, apparently it is possible, because Kabuto said Orochimaru cannot preform Sage Mode in his current condition. He hasn't had an idea body yet. Ergo, it is impossible for him to use Sage Mode. He can, however, absorb and use senjutsu chakra, proving that one can go without the other. But again. Off topic. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:12, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Stating he is yet to find a strong host body to handle it =/= his own body can't handle it. --Elveonora (talk) 01:29, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

This is me moving everything. Also, I had a similar conversation on the Sage Mode page, agreeing with Ten Tailed Fox. Adam10003 (talk) 01:52, February 15, 2013 (UTC)Adam


 * Elve, he can't use his own body. He's currently in Zetsu's body, and his real body is a giant snake. Kabuto said he can't use Sage Mode currently. He can't use Sage Mode. Period. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 02:37, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

Since when do we list abilities that characters can use only "currently" ? Then we should remove all temporary/lost powers from Sasuke's infobox, period. Also from where did you get that he can't use his own body? He emerged from Sasuke with his own body, same with Anko, his transformation into white snake isn't permanent, he can walk around "hostless" anytime just like before he took over Zetsu--Elveonora (talk) 12:54, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

On it's basis Sage Mode is when one produces senjutsu chakra, which produces a series of benfitial effects. Now even though he may not use it to it's full potential, Orochimaru could produce senjutsu chakra, as they serve as the basis for his cursed seal. If we'd followed the reasoing of the Ten Tailed Fox, guys like Tobirama, who never completed the Summoning: Impure World Reincarnation or Naruto with the Tailed Beast Rasengan shouldn't have those techniques matched to them. If Oro can produce senjutsu chakra, then he can use Sage Mode though his mastery over it appears to be very flawed, but just because of that, doesn't mean he can't use it. Darksusanoo (talk) 13:59, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining that to him, I see double standards around here. He is yet to use Wood Release, yet it's listed, while he used Senjutsu, yet no Sage Mode? Some people around here twist things for their own benefits and bias--Elveonora (talk) 14:54, February 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * Can someone explain to me where we decided that even using senjutsu chakra was Sage Mode? Because unless I'm wrong, Jugo and his clan use senjutsu chakra but are not Sages.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 15:09, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Not sure, but it doesn't. Orochimaru's yet to use Sage Mode because all the bodies he's inhabited could not withstand it or what not, at least that is what I understood from it. The same goes for the use of Wood Release: it hasn't happened or even been mentioned so there's no need to pre-empt the manga, it'll get there in time if it intends to.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:13, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

Jugo and his clan use natural energy, not senjutsu chakra, two different things. One has to combine and balance them first to achieve Sage status--Elveonora (talk) 15:20, February 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Isn't the whole basis of senjutsu using natural energy to bolster their attacks. Jūgo's people does that, albeit unsuccessfully able to strike a balance but instead of going frog, they go crazy. My point is that if they haven't used it, we don't mention it. This isn't simple meshing of information, it's giving people abilities to persons they may or may not have. So instead we should simply wait for a point where we can say chapter x, page y - information cannot be denied because they actually used it.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:27, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

No, Jugo and his people do nothing, their bodies just absorb natural energy without their consent and them doing anything with it.--Elveonora (talk) 15:31, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

The thing is, we have to set rules/standards. I'm ok with not listing Sage Mode since we are yet to see him using it, but he is definitely a sage. Same goes for Wood Release, Rinnegan all nature transformations etc. but then again, we shouldn't list Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi to Madara's infobox either--Elveonora (talk) 15:35, February 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * We do know that Susanoo requires Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi first. He has to have have it.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:52, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

Just like a senjutsu user has to be sage and dudes with Hashirama's cells/DNA are Wood Release users, the point being that if we don't list these instances, then we shouldn't also list Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi since he is yet to use them and pointing out he can in abilities section/ms article should be enough. We have to be fair--Elveonora (talk) 19:57, February 15, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Elveonora that nothing should be added until it is actually used. Even if he does have Sage Mode and Wood Release (and Madara has Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi), it hasn't been seen in the manga yet, so it should not be listed. Adam10003 (talk) 22:54, February 15, 2013 (UTC)Adam


 * Except I honestly cannot remember there ever being a time someone said "Sage Mode = using Senjutsu chakra". From what I remember, Pa said that Sage Mode was gathering the senjutsu chakra into ones self to enter a an altered state and that was Sage Mode. From what I can remember, it was we that decided that touching senjutsu chakra was automatic Sage Mode.
 * I do know that it was stated in the databook that to unlock Susanoo, the user must have Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 06:11, February 16, 2013 (UTC)

Orochimaru's curse mark uses senjustu chakra. It's derived from Jugo's ability to absorb natural energy, which is what senjutsu charka is made of. Jugo's transformation is even called Sage Transformation. The curse mark gives the user Orochimaru's senjustu chakra. So, I'd say Orochimaru can use senjutsu chakra without a Sage Mode. Blackchaos27 (talk) 06:55, February 16, 2013 (UTC)