Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-5936871-20160126112547/@comment-27660682-20160203171219

@AsianReaper and Rachin123, its not so much that i cant comprehend logic, its more so i'm skeptical of madara being the mastermind of part two and his intelligence/planning in the infinite tsyukomi. In chapter 681 page page 17, Black Zetsu clearly states the Akatsuki was his idea and he simply made it seem like Madara was the true leader. Think about the fact that Madara thought he created black Zetsu. It's clear Black Zetsu was intimately manipulating madara from the start. Madara after he awakened the rinnegan in old age needed to preserve the eyes somehow, so he put them in nagato. I dont think it wise to give those precious eyes to some random kid. What if nagato wasn't willing to join or participate? I get he gave it to nagato because he was an uzumaki and needed to have the eyes somewhere relatively safe, but how do i know that was madara's origninal idea and not Black Zetsu's who said he was tricking madara from the start? Think about how on madara had said he needed to wait for for a person to help enact the plan. So think about this madara was an ancient dude when he got the rinnegan and could barely walk. How was he gonna find a person when he can barely walk and is in this underground place and has to stay attached to the gedo statue or he would die? It's clear that Black Zetsu and white Zetsus were the ones flowing through the ground and on the surface and making the plans to get the pawn. Madara claimed he was spying on konoha, but its obvious he wasn't the one physically doing so. It had to be Zetsu. Obito said he had never seen madara in the village because he knows all the elder people. Zetsu is known for spying through people from the ground without them noticing, so that makes sense. Madara claimed he kidnapped Rin and on the pretense of it being the hidden mist shinobi... but how did he do that? It must have been Zetsu who made the plans for that. The Three tails was in the poessession of the hidden mist, so how did madara get the 3 tails exactly? how was he even in control of hidden mist shinobi ? When exactly did he kidnap Rin? All these things arent explained... or maybe you guys can shed some light. Here is the other thing, he also didnt plan for obito to get crushed under a boulder in that area. He found obito by chance there, even if he was spying on obito before, he did not set that trap up. So madara must have been relieved to finally have a pawn, but of all the uchiha...? why obito? Obito wasnt anything special, he wasn't a prodigy by any means. Madara was clearly desperate. Madara then spoke to obito about how the world was messed up etc...and obito confessed he just wanted to be with rin and kakashi. SO in the time obito was training, madara somehow was able to kidnap rin and make her the jinchurki... and then the hidden mist shinobi were chasing her after kakashi tried to rescue her. This doesn't make any bit of sense to me because madara was in the cave the whole time, he claimed that they could not leave. So then Zetsu was the one that reported that rin and kakashi were in trouble, then obito awakens mangeyko blah blah...and ascends into the darkness. But i dont see where madara made all this planning, it seems all inconsistent to me. So him claiming on 675 page 8 he was behind all of obito's descent into darkness seemed like poor writing. The only thing i'd say that was intelligent on Madara's part was the izanagi seal to fake his death, but that seemed like a plot hole to me too. Obito said versus konan that in order to use izanagi you needed hashirama cells on Chapter 510 page 10. But then that was retracted apparently during the izanami backstory when uchiha in the past were apparently spamming izanagi...IF its true you need senju cells to use izanagi than madara shouldn't have been able to use izanagi before going into battle with hashirama because it was after the battle when he was revived was when he was able to infuse the senju cells. So yea i have to take that away from madara as well because that's a plot hole. If you guys can explain these numerous plot holes to me, then i will happily give madara the intelligence points you say he deserves. And to repeat, like i said, Madara because he was dead had no real way to enforce his plan. That's why he "thought" he created black zetsu as his will. But the fact you think you created a sentient being and expected it not to have free will makes no sense. When you create a child, is that child your will? Madara should have noticed that. Zetsu was the one that made it possible. Obito wasn't planning on reviving madara, and after Nagato killed himself the rinnegan was up for grabs. The only way to bring back madara has and always required black zetsu making it happen. I imagined that after all the tailed beasts were caught, black zetsu might have forced nagato to do the rinne tensi on madara. If kabuto never did the edo tensi and Zetsu never talked to him, madara is still dead, so you cant give him credit for plotting his revivial when there was little he could do about whether he was gonna be revived in the first place. So by all means, give your reasons because that's a lot of plot holes and little planning and continuity on madara's supposed masterplan.

@ Baku, to be clear i was referring to Itachi's battle intelligence compared to Nagato's and Madara's battle intelligence, not intellgience outside of the battlefield as that's separate. Madara has shown he has ALOT of battle EXPERIENCE, but experience =/= intelligence. He has seen alot of the tricks in the book because like i said he grew up in a WAR ZONE. when your battling against people everyday you amass a ton of experience. So if a person is gonna outsmart you in battle, you have to do more than outsmart madara, you have to outsmart madara IN ADDITION to every single person madara has already faced. You have to do something madara has never seen before. That's why i said just because madara is very battle experienced does not mean he is battle intelligent, they are not the same. Shikamaru is alot smarter than him in battle. But Shikamaru stands no chance against madara because his intelligence is offset by madara's experience, and madara is stronger faster more durable has more stamina etc.

Regarding itachi,even though he failed in a few respects, you can actually see the planning. He deduced that obito would try to go after sasuke so he planted an amaterasu trap. But if that failed, he also set kotoamatsukami in naruto to trigger if sasuke, molded by obito, was to attack the village using the Eternal mangeyko sharingan from itachi's eyes, and he predicted that perfectly. The only reason he failed was because kabuto edo tensied him and he had to face naruto and then that triggered shisui's eye. There was no way for itachi to forsee that scenario.

Like i said before, OBito was never a relevant person till he pretended to be madara and he also copied madara's hair style for some time. He was just some random 12 year old sub par uchiha who got crushed by a boulder and was forgotten about.Itachi likely didnt even know obito existed as a person because obito "died" when itachi was like a toddler and obito didnt even seem to live with the uchiha clan. He was an orphan that lived in the village apparently and not in the uchiha section. Itachi had no way of telling the difference, in fact no one was able to figure that out until Black Zetsu showed kabuto the real madara.

And what are you talking about ? itachi was aware obito knew he was a spy. That was established on chapter 590 page 11. Itachi would join the akatsuki on the condition that obito would not take movements to destroy Konoha. Whether or not Itachi knew if tobi was madara or not was irrelevant. The akatsuki still was a threat to konoha regardless of who the leader was. ITachi's time as a spy only doesnt add up because Danzo was thrown into the story later. Danzo wasn't orginally a part of the story, kishimoto shoehorned him into the story later so sasuke had someone to take revenge on for the village murdering the clan. ITachi's time was cut short because he had to die for sasuke's portion of the plot to continue.