User talk:GoDai

Hello GoDai, greetings and welcome to the Narutopedia! Thanks for your edit to the User talk:Omnibender/Elemental recomposition table page.

We do hope that you will stay for a long time. Enjoy your stay as we work to become the best Naruto info site out there. BELIEVE IT!

If you're looking for something to do why not look over the Forums or more specifically Narutopedia Collaboration for a list of projects we're working on. And the Community portal has a lot of recent discussions and places to go listed on it.

Please leave a message on my talk page if I can help with anything! -- ShounenSuki (Talk) 03:13, 2010 March 5

Theory page
What you want to do is this, a subpage. Just transfer the content from your page to that one. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:22, March 6, 2010 (UTC) Ah, so frustrating. --GoDai (talk) 02:02, March 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * No real need to move thinks there, you still should have a main user page, the way you did it before had made it a page for a completely different user. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:45, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

Inheritors of the Will of Fire
Yup, it's out, but it's a raw. It does have Japanese subtitles those. If you plan on seeing it, avoid seeing one hosted at MegaVideo, they have time limits. Do you want a link? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:15, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * Here. Use the second version, the first one with "mirror" on it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:32, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * If you haven't watched it yet, the subbed version is already out, there's a link to it over at Jacce's talk page. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:02, April 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't oppose having pages for those characters. I'd bring up the subject on the movie's talk page first. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:46, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Dark release
Man, the page says "...Hiruko is able to detect their natural elemental affinity, and then manipulate the victim's chakra and perform ninjutsu of that element." It's exactly what he did there! So it's not wrong... --Rubião April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * So would be a bad idea make a new page for this jutsu??? By the way, that special seal was the same used in the Storm Release: Demon Dragon Storm. Some people say it's the bird seal, but it's not...--Rubião April 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Man, I spent all day today (sounded strange I know XD) watching episodes with jutsu using bird seals!!! Omnibender said that was the bird seal, but I disagree because Hiruko's middle and ring fingers were together (and it was the same seal Shikamaru was using, I noticed it)! In all bird seals I saw there weren't any fingers together (just the index and little, but they are up). I think there should be a page about this jutsu, but I want to make the bird thing clear first. Thanks for listening me :D --Rubião April 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yeah, there are a lot of things to be seen and fixed, but unfortunately I'm with some problems in my computer, so I will hardly edit here for a while... I will discuss these problems with you calmly later, ok? Thanks --Rubião May 4, 2010 (UTC)

Re:Elements and Recomposition
It's an interesting theory, a different perspective, definitely something I've never seen anywhere or thought myself. You could be onto something. Kishimoto never mentioned any elemental advantages on advanced elements like he did with the basic ones, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. They can be different. I liked your theory. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:08, May 29, 2010 (UTC)

Re:Cardcaptors
Not really sure. I wouldn't say it just yet because in Cardcaptors, the anime and the manga are very different. Just so you get an idea, in the manga, there were about 19 cards. In the anime, there were 52. I don't remember specifics, so I can't tell if that happened just in the manga or if it was something the anime expanded on. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:59, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

Re:Amaterasu
I believe it was mentioned in Amaterasu's entry in the second databook, you'll have to look for a scanlation I think. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:54, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

Re:5
I think Kakashi used those words because at that point, he wasn't explaining the nature manipulation of Yin and Yang, which going by what was implied is the source of many non-elemental ninjutsu, despite still being the result of a nature manipulation, just not an elemental one. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:54, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Third Kazekage had a kekkei genkai, maybe it's an advanced nature, maybe it's not. Deidara's technique's were Earth Release, the exploding stuff probably is a consequence of the Iwagakure Kinjutsu, if other people kneaded chakra in other materials, I think they'd explode as well, Earth Release or not. Nagato's techniques are just techniques that use chakra, no implied nature manipulation on them. They're more like "divine force", so to speak. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:33, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Re:Elements
Nope. The only activity around it was a couple anons trying to add the combos which make up the elements with no known components in the nature transformation article. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:01, July 30, 2010 (UTC)


 * The missing lines are merely bugs, the arrows can be added easily. —ShounenSuki (talk 09:54, September 10, 2010 (UTC)

Re:Yin and Yang
We've suspected some of that for a while now. After Yamato and Kakashi said that Shadow Imitation Technique uses Yin and Yang manipulation, people linked it back to Tayuya, who Shikamaru said used similar chakra to him for her Demonic Haunts Disorder. They are made of chakra with imbalanced ratios of spiritual and physical energy, so when they attack, they eat the target's physical energy to stabilize themselves. The only other idea that could be suggested based on canon stuff is that Yin and Yang are related to power and will, as a similar graphic was shown when Fukasaku and Gerotora were explaining how Naruto had to take over the Nine-Tails' power after separating it from its mind. Wouldn't really used the Avatar and Firebender examples since those are completely different series. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:19, August 25, 2010 (UTC)

Re: Elements Diagram
You mean something like this? —ShounenSuki (talk 16:06, September 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd say bring it up on Talk:Nature Transformation for discussion. —ShounenSuki (talk 13:11, September 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * I uploaded a fixed version with added arrows. Hope you like it. —ShounenSuki (talk 14:32, September 12, 2010 (UTC)

Sand
The idea has been suggested before, but since everything about it is already available at Gaara's page, such an article was never created. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:49, September 4, 2010 (UTC)

Re: Elements in anime
Most of those are added because either it's rather obvious they're from a certain element. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:39, September 10, 2010 (UTC)

Yin and Yang
I wouldn't say so. Based on the descriptions given as to what Yin Release and Yang Release are (they are Releases, ShounenSuki spoiler translations available in foruns), I would say yes and no. From what I understand, things like, genjutsu for example, are a form of Yin Release, because it deals with the mind and imagination. Medical ninjutsu, on the other hand, would be Yang Release, because of life and vitality. Sakura was a genjutsu type and is a medic nin, C is both a genjutsu user and a medic nin. I would understand Yin Release and Yang Release as particular forms of a basic nature. Now, Sage of the Six Paths could use Yin-Yang Release to basically create stuff out of nowhere, since he used it to create the Tailed Beasts out of the Ten Tails' chakra. I could consider Yin-Yang Release as an advanced nature, since it would be a merger of Yin Release and Yang Release, but that would mean a kekkei genkai is needed to use it. What I'm in doubt, is whether Yin-Yang Release is something only Rinnegan can use, or if Sage of the Six Paths was simply so badass to the point he did what he did. In an unrelated note, look forward for a revamp of my theory page in light of the recent chapter. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:43, September 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not just Sakura, everyone. Izanagi in particular requires Senju and Uchiha blood, but we don't know what other lesser forms of Yin-Yang Release might exist. Maybe people are capable of merging them without kekkei genkai, this chapter only revealed a basis of what that is, but it also raises new questions. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:50, September 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * It wasn't a scan. From what I understand, spoilers are released in an IRC channel somewhere in the Internet, most of the times by someone who goes by Ohana, but occasionally by someone called nja as well. After those are released, either all at once or by parts, people translate it. What I saw was a translation of those texts from Japanese to English, by ShounenSuki. I don't even question it being his because the style of the translation is clearly his. Just search any naruto forums for a 510 spoiler thread, it's very likely it'll be there. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:28, September 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * What I understood is that because Madara was able to get Hashirama's power, he has the First and Second Paths, Nagato being the Third. My guess is that Madara has to find/become one with/absorb the power of the Six Paths in order to become the new Sage of the Six Paths. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:01, September 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Nope, that's just my guess. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:07, September 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * ShounenSuki is waiting for the raws, so he can see the real deal, as well as get accurate translations. They're also released through IRC channels. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:27, September 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Updates are done. The only changes in store depend on something I asked ShounenSuki about, and something he offered to do. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:26, September 19, 2010 (UTC)

Re:Seedling Fern
Databook says, so it is. The only true error I ever saw in databooks was when Kishimoto messed up with the physics of magnetism. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:00, September 18, 2010 (UTC)

Re:Madara and Six Paths
I understand as much as you do now. Madara called himself the "Second of the Six Paths" and Nagato the "Third of the Six Paths", according to ShounenSuki's translations. What that means, I think it has yet to be elucidated. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:21, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

Re:Naruto Shippūden 3: Inheritors of the Will of Fire
I would bring the matter up in the movie's talk page. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:28, September 30, 2010 (UTC)

Storm Release
No idea who had the idea first, but the first one to show Storm Release was the movie, it premiered long before Darui was even introduced. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:24, October 10, 2010 (UTC)

Re:Wiki contributors
What exactly do you mean? The amount of bad edits doesn't seem to have spiked after the massive Russian vandalism. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:08, October 19, 2010 (UTC)

Re: Is Ohana ever wrong?
Everything I ever saw coming from her is reliable. The only stuff I ever saw being wrong is when she sometimes assumes or is in doubt of something, but she usually points these things out. Sometimes, other people also post rather accurate spoilers, but they're not as good as hers. The one thing I ever saw coming from Ohana I didn't believe was in this week's chapter spoiler, there was a mention of Deidara having something that the spoilers called Bakuton. It had matching kanji. Other than that, wrong stuff from Ohana is usually when translators do a poor job. Again, this week, a translator listed Dust Release's Jinton as Chiriton, and called it Clay Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:58, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * The only thing I saw was the spoiler in Japanese, with kanji and all, but so far no raw. ShounenSuki usually gets those when they come out in IRC channels. I "Ctrl+F"ed the -ton kanji in the spoiler, and indeed a Bakuton in the spoiler, but since that's not the raw, I don't believe it just yet, it would be a major retcon of Deidara's abilities. Both kanji for Lava are listed in the Lava Release page, and according to ShounenSuki, the difference between one and the other is virtually null, since it's just another way to write it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:20, October 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Let's wait for the raw, and hope there are clarifications. As far as kanji meanings and all go, I go by what ShounenSuki says, so you should ask him. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:44, October 21, 2010 (UTC)

Re: The Lava vs. Dissolving again...
I understand what you're coming from. Right now, I would like to wait for the raw, before saying anything definite on the matter. I would like to say that I have also thought about the two different kanji signifying two subtly different techniques. However, the problem is that Kishimoto-sensei has simply never been that consistent with the kanji. He used both to refer to Rōshi's Yōton, for instance, and has only used the 溶 in the word for lava.

Now, looking at the usage of the two kanji, there is indeed a noticeable difference. 熔 is generally used in words related to metal and other hard substances, whereas 溶 is more used in words related to liquids. Unfortunately, both can also be used vice versa, and are practically synonyms. Both can be used to write lava, both can be used to write smelting, both can be used to write dissolve, fuse, melt.

At this moment, I think it is safest to assume the two Yōton are the same and only make a note of the different kanji and their possible implications. The techniques we've seen look enough alike to be considered the same element and I really don't see how another Yōton could fit in with the already known elements.

Until we can get some more information, we'll just have to live with this uncertainty and hope Kishimoto-sensei won't introduce the third synonymous kanji 鎔. —ShounenSuki (talk 12:28, October 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I kind of hope he's making this distinction. It would make it deeper and more interesting in my opinion. However, even if Kishimoto-sensei is trying to make this distinction, I do believe the two Yōton are still fundamentally the same element. Both creating a corrosive, lava-like substance formed from mixing Earth and Fire chakra. Their origins might be different, though, with Iwa's Yōton stemming from the Four-Tails and Kiri's Yōton being a natural kekkei genkai.
 * To answer your question about the raw: it really differs. I use multiple websites and IRC channels and there isn't a single one that is consistently the first. Don't worry, though. I am also looking forward to this chapter's raw for the exact same reasons ^^ —ShounenSuki (talk 19:34, October 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * I personally can't imagine the Ten-Tails giving the Sage of the Six Paths his Rinnegan. It was said that the Rinnegan allowed the Sage to create ninjutsu, which he already must have done before sealing the Ten-Tails inside of him. Also, I don't believe the Ten-Tails' eye is supposed to be a "Sharinnegan," but rather a triple Sharingan. If anything, I believe the Sage's Rinnegan and the Ten-Tails' TriSharingan merged together to form the six-tomoe Sharinnegan shown on page eleven of chapter 510.
 * I do think it is possible for jinchūriki to inherit their tailed-beasts' powers in a way and in turn to pass it on to their children. Gaara, Naruto, and now Kurotsuchi seem to imply this.
 * Kurotsuchi, by the way, was only said to be "the Tsuchikage's granddaughter" in the spoilers. This heavily implies she is Ōnoki's granddaughter, despite the different kekkei genkai. Perhaps she simply inherited her kekkei genkai from a different grandparent.
 * As for the Bakuton, I can say only this: Don't put too much trust in the spoilers. More often than not, they are heavily flawed and misguiding. Wait for the raw before falling into despair. —ShounenSuki (talk 20:05, October 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * The raw is out and all our worst expectations have come true. Kurotsuchi does use 熔 and Deidara does mention . —ShounenSuki (talk 14:34, October 24, 2010 (UTC)

Re: Explosion
The Release page will not be created right now. Even ShounenSuki doesn't think it's a real Release, even though he made an icon for it already. We won't be making the page now because one, Deidara's techniques were already called Earth Release, two, it would be a major retcon, so we would need confirmation for that. Right now, Explosion Release is noted in the trivia section of relevant articles, those being Deidara, Nature transformation and Exploding Clay. If this is indeed a nature, then yes, this was a wrench thrown in a finely tuned engine. Though I already have some back-ups, one involving Earth Release and Yin/Yang/Yin-Yang, which I prefer since it's the one that'll require less pruning of my current theory, and the other would involve a major overhaul, since there's a slight change, in my opinion, that Explosion could be the first example of a combination of elements which are already used, meaning the ratio of each element used to make a blend does affect the result. In this case, it would be an Earth-dominant Earth and Fire mix. If this does turn out to be just Deidara being boastful, there is also the possibility that Blaze Release was Sasuke being boastful, or at least vain and proud enough. The current discussion is at Talk:Deidara. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:31, October 24, 2010 (UTC)

Re: More Elements Discussion
Not Yin and Yang separate, I don't think it would constitute a kekkei genkai, but I'm not sure for them together. Like you pointed out, there is evidence suggesting it's a kekkei genkai. I'm not sure how Yin or Yang affinity would work, if it even exists. I considered putting the Supreme Ultimate, but I'm a bit lazy lately, so that hasn't made the table yet, it probably will someday. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:42, October 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually he can use more the one kanji, and he has in Yin-Yang Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:07, October 25, 2010 (UTC)

Re: Dust definition
When 塵 is used on its own, it has a number of related meanings, depending on context and pronunciation. When pronounced as "chiri" it refers to, well, dust; Tiny particles of dirt. When pronounced as "gomi" it refers to rubbish, garbage; something without any utility value. When pronounced as "jin" it refers to impurity, defilement, which in a Buddhist context refers to the world we live in and our daily affairs. With this pronunciation it also becomes a number, referring to numbers in the 10−9 range. Basically, it refers to dust and dirt, especially very fine kinds.

Given the effects of this element, I would say Earth + Wind seems most likely, as Dust manipulates matter ("Earth") on a molecular level and cuts it apart (Wind). However, I could see Earth + Lightning work as well, as the bonds between the molecules could be described as a kind of electricity. —ShounenSuki (talk 00:09, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

Re: Icons
Not to my knowledge. The icons are pretty, but they aren't terribly illustrative. ~SnapperTo 05:17, October 26, 2010 (UTC)

Re: 遁?
The basic meaning of 遁 is indeed 'escape,' 'flee'. It is not a very common kanji.

The reason it is used in the names of the elements is not because of its meaning, though. The elements are named after actual techniques used by real-life shinobi in times long gone. For example, katon was a technique that involved using fire or smoke to hide oneself or to cover up one's escape. The best translation would be fire escape: to escape by means of fire.

However, the Naruto version is quite different, so it is generally translated as Fire Release, using a somewhat loose interpretation of the meaning of the kanji.

As for your second question, here are my translations of the Yōton sections:


 * 熔遁（ようとん）:熔遁とは火遁と土遁の性質変化を同時に発生させて行うもの. 四尾の人柱力老柴が四尾の力を借りて会得した. 本編中では未登場.
 * Yōton (fire radical): Yōton is what is created by the simultaneous use of the Katon and Doton nature transformations. The jinchūriki of the Four-Tails, Rōshi, was able to use this by borrowing the Four-Tails' power. It has not yet appeared in the actual story.


 * 溶遁（ようとん）:四尾の人柱力のものとは漢字の表記が違う.
 * 溶遁・溶怪の術（ようとん・ようかいのじゅつ）:【水影】体内のチャクラを粘性の高い強酸に変換し、口から吹きだす. 反対に、それを固めることもできる.
 * Yōton (water radical): Written with different kanji than the Four-Tails' Yōton.
 * Lava Release: Melting Apparition Technique: (Mizukage) Turns the chakra within the body viscous and very strongly acidic, and then emits it through the mouth. In contrast, it is possible to harden this.

It seems to me that the Japanese Wikipedia editors did take not of the different kanji, but have not yet noted Kurotsuchi's Yōton. The Japanese Wikipedia is always somewhat behind, though, so this isn't really that surprising.

The Japanese are able to treat the two differently without implying they are different, though. A luxury we don't have, seeing how we have to translate them and do not just have a list of elements with short explanations, but actual articles and such. —ShounenSuki (talk 07:21, October 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Style is in no way a correct translation of 遁, but given the context and way of use in the manga, it is acceptable. It is a very loose translation, though, and ignores the historical context completely. If you're going to translate that loosely, you could just as easily use element.


 * As for the film elements... The film was released on 1st August 2009. The chapter that gave us the Storm and Dust Releases was released on 21st September 2009. Even just considering the release dates, it is highly unlikely that the film creators took their ideas from Kishimoto-sensei. Taking into account the fact it takes about a year to create one film, and it becomes even more impossible.


 * The similarly named elements were either the result of a coincidence — which isn't that odd — or of Kishimoto-sensei taking the ideas from the film and changing them to his own need. Either scenario is very much possible. The first because it is quite likely that Kishimoto-sensei planned out the elements a long time ago when he first had the idea and the second because it is a highly common creative process when writing a story.


 * You also have to take into account the fact that the manga is the original work. It is the manga that is important and all the other works, like the anime and films, are considered little more than oversized adverts for it. I doubt Kishimoto-sensei would ruin the surprise value of his own manga by allowing a film to show something first. —ShounenSuki (talk 07:01, October 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's a bit of a shame that the Third Kazekage's Iron Sand isn't an advanced nature, as it would have been a perfect combination of Earth and Lightning.
 * I think it's important not to stick too much to the exact definitions of the elements we have, but to allow for some creative interpretations. After all, it's unlikely we would have come to the conclusion that Water + Wind = Ice or that Earth + Water = Wood in the way we generally think. For Lightning + Wind, perhaps we should look at what they do.
 * Lightning pierces, shocks, and paralyses. Wind pushes, cuts, and blows. If we focus on the paralysing aspect of lightning, perhaps some kind of poisonous air? —ShounenSuki (talk 07:57, October 28, 2010 (UTC)

Ultimate Ninja Storm 2
Do you have the game by any chance? Someone simply started adding names for techniques from the game, some of which you corrected, however, I don't think the techniques are, at this point, fully translated, since they're usually first added with their English name, and they someone with the game moves it to the actual Japanese name. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:16, November 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Go to the talk page of the guy who added a couple game jutsu, he has provided a youtube video of the game in Japanese as source for the game names. See what you can make out of it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:35, November 10, 2010 (UTC)

Re: Shippūden Movie 3 subjects getting into manga
In the pages for Chūkichi and the Unknown Iwa Ninja, there are images of the four characters Hiruko abducts, and that is as close we get to see the Unknown Kumo Ninja and the Unknown Kunoichi we get. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:10, November 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * There's sense in that. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:59, November 13, 2010 (UTC)

Re: Help with a Diagram for a Theory
Is this something like you had in mind? —ShounenSuki (talk 00:28, November 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I uploaded a new version. Please tell me what you think ^^ —ShounenSuki (talk 02:36, November 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm going to keep on tweaking it a bit tomorrow, to see if I can actually get it to look even better. Dust Release keeps trying to become a Yang element... lil' tosser. —ShounenSuki (talk 02:46, November 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * I made some major changes to the diagram. It looks better now, in my opinion. If you disagree, just say so and I'll revert it. It's your diagram, after all ^^ —ShounenSuki (talk 16:04, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

Steel Theory (Possible Correction)
Right first off I completely agree with your theory of Steel being a offspring developed jutsu of earth and lightning. However through to note I am not trying to be rude but merely helpful your evidence to support your theory I feel is incorrect. You stated that in your theory "Steel may be Earth+Lightning, probably created by applying the electrical properties of Lightning to the components of Earth, possibly forming a vibrating steel." Which I find is incorrect. The correct theory support would be Electrolsis.

Now Electrolsis is the process of passing electricty through a solution or molten compound to break it down. And is used to acquire useful products. It is the decompistion of a liquid using electricity.

Now it is most often used in extracting metals from their ores (which often is found in the ground e.g. would be earth)

An example would be Aluminium oxide ore bauxite:

1st off the bauxite is melted under extreme heat into a molten substance which allows it ions to freely move around and hence allowing it to conduct electricty.

Next electordes (1 positive, and 1 negative charged) are placed into the electrolyte (in this case bauxite) and passeson electricty.

Note: ((...)) means small number/symbols located in top right hand corner

Now the positive Al((3+)) cations are attracted to the cathode (negative electrode) where aluminium is formed. Whilst the negative O((2-)) anions are attracted to the anode where oxygen is formed.

Hence a metal (Aluminium) is extracted from an earth formed compound (which would thus be the earth release) through electrolsis (which would thus be lightning release) and separates the compound.

Furthermore this can in theory be used to extract all metals from their ore however due to it being a complex and expensive route it is only used on certain metals in order to extract.

So if the theory Steel may be Earth+Lightning it would in my mind be down to electrolysis and decompistion rather than combined virabtions which in effect would most likely just break the earth into small pieces. Romance Dawn (talk) 22:02, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

Lol no probably, you have some very good and valid theories, which futhermore are very intersting. However I heard you wanted to include some artwork in order to make them more eye catching and appealing. And I am fairly good at digitial art using a graphics tablet and a graphic program. So if you would like me to do any specific artwork for you please feel free to ask. Romance Dawn (talk) 23:12, November 17, 2010 (UTC)

Re: Nature Icons
I have on both accounts. I'll make the 溶 icon soon, but I don't think I'll change the Storm icon, though. I created it in that specific colour to invoke the feeling of a storm, rather than the actual nature. I did the same for the Lava icon, after all. Recognisability is more important than perfect accuracy, in this case. —ShounenSuki (talk 08:19, November 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * If you hadn't noticed already, I created the 溶 icon. —ShounenSuki (talk 23:24, December 3, 2010 (UTC)

Re: Rinnegan and Six Paths abilities
I've thought about this subject for a while and I came to roughly the same conclusion. I do believe the Six Paths name is referring to the abilities themselves and not the bodies they are channelled through. The problem is in trying to figure out exactly what the ability of each path is and how to properly arrange this all here on the wiki. —ShounenSuki (talk 14:57, November 30, 2010 (UTC)

Re: Flaming Oil Absorption
I hear what you are saying, but would that still not be similiar to making the earth disappear? The element (should an oil element page be made?) would have to be entirely from the body after all. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 04:30, December 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmmm, you have certainly looked into all of the natures. You have a point about pre-existing elements though, where does the chakra go when disipated? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 05:29, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, it looks like I need to clarify my ideas a bit to get it clearer in my head first. Despite this, you have obviously given a lot of thought to this, have you considered writing some of it down on your page (my own experience has shown that can be iffy on the jutsu/chakra pages, and you obviously have a lot to be said)? But yes, Kishi needs to work on it a little. Hopefully one of his assisstants spent some time doing science and can help. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 08:44, December 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * You did. Oh, and if you do organize some of the information here (which would be darn useful) do not forget all of that work you did on the earth and lightning jutsu talk pages. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 03:31, December 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * It definitely has the potential. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 07:09, December 7, 2010 (UTC)

Re: Grid/Chart code
Go ahead. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:40, December 4, 2010 (UTC)

Re: Use of the Dissolution Icon
I wouldn't be against using the Dissolution icon for the Mizukage, although it might become confusing as we still don't know exactly how everything fits together. It would be somewhat ironic as well, seeing how I based the Dissolution colours on the fireball created by the Yonbi in the second artbook.

Any way, I think this should be discussed with the other editors first. Not in the least because it might actually require some things only SimAnt knows how to do. —ShounenSuki (talk 12:22, December 10, 2010 (UTC)

Re: Counterbalancing!
I think the counterbalancing concept should certainly be mentioned on the Nature transformation page. I believe it's rather vital information. As for the Yata Mirror, I think it'll change into the nature opposite of the one hitting it, In other words, when hit by a Fire technique, I believe it'll change its nature to Water. When hit by a non-elemental technique, I don't think it necessarily assumes a nature itself, but simply reflects it as is. —ShounenSuki (talk 23:40, December 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * So if you were to add a section about Counterbalancing, would you just copy and paste the info from the databook?
 * No, I would rewrite it to better fit our needs.
 * Also, about the "Speculation" part in the Advanced Natures section, was that removed due to it being unnecessary? Can things like Sand and Iron Sand(magnetic nature) be mentioned in the Trivia?
 * To be honest, I don't know why that was removed. probably because speculation shouldn't be in the articles. I don't think mentioning in the trivia how Gaara's Sand and Satetsu are often mistaken for natures would do any harm, though.
 * "Nature Transformation" means "Property Change," right? So the "Advanced Natures" are simply types of chakra with the properties of two elements, rather than a literal "combination of elements?"
 * I think Kishimoto-sensei is rather inconsistent with this and simply does what he thinks works best. Ice, for instance, is explained as 'water frozen by the coldness of wind', whereas Boil seems to be more 'water with some of the properties of fire'.
 * Do you think it's likely that there will be more than 10 simultaneous natures? Depending on if "溶遁" and "爆遁" are separate natures or not, there could be 11~13 natures. With 7~9 confirmed canon, and now it seems Kishi has thrown in the kekkei genkai-bearers from the movie, which possibly means 3~4 natures could be added. Maybe which nature is in which hand matters, and there are about 20?
 * It's possible Kishimoto-sensei will increase the number of natures beyond the ten simple nature combinations we already know of. However, I don't think he'll increase the possible number up to twenty. He might introduce Yin and Yang combinations, or advanced natures that aren't simply combinations of two basic natures (Enton?), but making the hand each separate basic nature is channelled through important for the outcome seems too much to me.
 * Is it ever implied that there may be "Minor natures" that can be used by common people? I mean, Toad Oil Bullet (and Jiraiya's other toad oil techniques) states the user converts their chakra into oil, which is literally changing the nature of the chakra into that of oil (much like what happens in Earth and Water Release techniques), although it's obviously not an Advanced Nature, and it's even ranked. Similarities are also seen in Poison Mist and other techniques which I can't think of where the user spits out their chakra converted into a different form.
 * Nothing of the sort has ever been mentioned, hinted at, or implied. On the other hand, Jiraiya's oil has never truly been explained either and it does sound a lot like a chakra nature. I think that, if Kishimoto-sensei will ever explain that, he'll say it's either a natural function amplified by chakra or simply an already existing nature (water?) used in a different way. I don't think he'll complicate the chakra natures even further by adding 'minor natures'.
 * —ShounenSuki (talk 18:29, December 22, 2010 (UTC)

Theory on the relative strength between advanced natures
Since you're interested in advanced nature strengths, I thought something up. I don't if you thought something similar already, but since your theories are usually on nature vs advanced nature, or simply on how the advanced nature is formed, I think this is a focus you might not have considered yet. It's basically an advanced nature only version of the Fire > Wind > Lightning > Earth > Water cycle.
 * Let's pit two natures against each other, for example, Lava and Ice. There are two ways to interpret what could happen.

Following this logic, Dust (assuming Earth + Wind) > Storm > Lava > Ice > whatever Fire + Lightning will be. You'll notice that in those examples, I only put advanced natures which do not share a common element with the nature it is supposed to be stronger or weaker to it. I did that so it's simpler to see how the components relate to each other. Regardless of the nature, I think it all comes down to how all the components relate to each other. In a random example, let's see Dust (again, assuming Earth + Wind) and Boil. Earth > Water, Earth : Fire, Wind : Earth, Wind < Fire. In this case, the natures would be evenly matched, because both "win" and "lose" one (Fire > Wind, Earth < Water) while the others are neutral (Fire : Earth, Wind : Water). Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:58, December 22, 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) In one way, Lava > Ice plain and simple because Lava's Fire > Ice's Wind, and Lava's Earth > Ice's Water. That goes for the natures which are composed of elements that are weaker to the components of the other nature.
 * 2) However, since the advanced chakra nature is made from two mixed elements, I find it unlikely that the portions would simply pair like that. So, we must see how all basics would go against each other. Fire > Wind, Fire < Water, Earth > Water, Earth : Wind. The Fire portion of Lava would be "neutral" towards Ice, because it has advantage over one component and disadvantage over the other. Lava in general would still beat Ice because Earth has and advantage over one component, while being neutral towards the other.

I'm not sure it would go exactly as you put the Lava vs Ice, because there is no record of elementally recomposed chakra being decomposed into its basic natures, or unmixed. I think the components, mixed as they are, would simply react based on their basic relations. I took a look at every possible basic five elements combination, and there are three possible outcomes:
 * 1) Three of the four relations are neutral, with the fourth one defining which advanced nature wins, Lava against Ice is an example, and so is Dust against Storm, Dust beating Storm.
 * 2) Two of the four relations are neutral, and the other two both giving the advantage to the same advanced nature, for example, Wood beating Boil.
 * 3) Two of the four relations are neutral, and each of the other two relations favor different advanced natures, meaning they'd be evenly matched. For example, Wood vs Lava and Ice vs Boil.

Also, considering only basic five elements combinations, and the resulting ten possible combinations, each nature would be neutral against itself obviously, neutral against three other advanced natures as per point 3, strong against two advanced natures as per point 1, stronger still against one advanced nature as per point 2, weak against two natures as per point 1 and weaker still against one advanced nature as per point 2.

About the lightning genjutsu, I believe that techniques will end up having a Yin Yang component as well, but not all of them. It's definitely a possibility, but there is still too little on the mechanics of that for me to build something on top of it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:36, December 23, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, I saw you added something about each nature being used in each hand. I don't think that would be very relevant, since when Yamato and Kakashi are explaining Wood Release to Naruto, Kakashi explicitly says Yamato uses them at the same time, so it's not really something which depends on the order the basic natures are used. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:49, December 23, 2010 (UTC)

Not therefore. Checking all the relations of one nature towards others showed how it is possible for one combination to work, how many natures each advanced nature wins when pitted against another. One nature being half neutral, winning one and losing one doesn't mean that because of that, the nature will be neutral to three others. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:03, December 24, 2010 (UTC)

Natures and Stuff
I was looking through the manga the other day and I noticed that certain advanced natures seem to be 'weak' against basic natures.

Fire melts ice, so katon is strong against hyōton. Haku told Sasuke a katon of his level couldn't melt the ice, thereby implying a stronger one could. The mirrors did drip water afterwards.

Water hardens lava, so suiton is strong against yōton. Kurotsuchi uses this to her advantage with her Lava Release: Quicklime Congealing Technique.

This is all speculation, of course, but it got me thinking about something else. Bakuton, to be exact. What if it really is an advanced nature? Sure, Deidara's techniques have been classified as hiden, but so had the Shodai Hokage's Wood Release Secret Technique: Nativity of a World of Trees in the first databook. We were actually explained what the hiden jutsu behind Deidara's techniques is, and it actually doesn't have anything to do with explosions. The problem is that Sasuke and Omoi managed to defuse the bombs with raiton, implying they're merely doton.

However, if you take my previous theory into account, it could simply be that raiton is also strong against bakuton. The only problem then would be what basic elements form bakuton. The only free options right now are katon/fūton, katon/raiton, fūton/raiton, fūton/doton, and raiton/doton, not counting shōton and enton. I think the best solution then would be raiton/doton. —ShounenSuki (talk 12:20, December 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Very interesting read. Your ideas about bakuton sound very reasonable, although I wonder about the survivability of a clan with suicide bombers ^^
 * If you are right about Deidara, his Kibaku Nendo would be very complicated. I could see it work, though: he could create his sculptures and animate them using doton, infuse them with (bakuton) chakra using the kinjutsu, and make them explode with bakuton.
 * Kishimoto-sensei certainly made things far more complicated and interesting all of a sudden. I wonder what kekkei genkai Pakura and Gari will bring. —ShounenSuki (talk 23:42, December 24, 2010 (UTC)

Re: More on Natures
Enton is extremely odd still. I really don't know what to make of it.

It just doesn't seem to fit in. Water-Yōton... I just don't see it work as Water + Earth. It misses the melting effect. I really don't think Kishimoto-sensei is going to give a single combination two possible outcomes. —ShounenSuki (talk 18:42, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's rather difficult to say if the Mizukage's Yōton melted anything. The images and sound effects are all ambiguous. However, we do know it has one effect in common with Kurotsuchi's Yōton: it hardens like lava. —ShounenSuki (talk 03:45, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Kurotsuchi's technique required water, yes, but the basic ability is there. Looking different does not mean they are. Fire Release: Ash Pile Burning looks nothing like Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique, nor does Water Release: Syrup Capture Field really resemble Water Release: Water Dragon Bullet Technique. Elements can have different appearances. It's the effects that count.
 * I'll get to work on the diagrams right away ^^—ShounenSuki (talk 14:41, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I'm not altogether happy with Bakuton's current placement, either. I have a feeling it should be Fire + Lightning. Fire because, well, 'splosions and the fact that 爆 has 火 in it. Lightning because of the energy it releases and, although this is a very weak link, because of Gari's technique: 地雷拳. —ShounenSuki (talk 03:20, December 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I've used weaker links than that. Before Yin and Yang came out, one of my arguments for Dark having Lightning was because of Kakuzu's False Darkness, and considering that this name in itself is "let me see which kanji can sound like this", that's a very long stretch. I've considered Explosion as Fire + Lightning as well in my alternative theory. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:49, December 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I just believe that something so obviously fire-related as explosions should have fire in them. In fact, there's a longer word for 地雷: . I just don't really see the connection between earth and explosions. The symbolism is rather moot when you remember that Explosion Release itself isn't always coming from the ground. It's not a landmine. Bakuton being Katon and Raiton seems the most logical option right now. If all options were completely open, that would probably be what I would choose. Of course, it does complicate Blaze Release, but I like the irony of Deidara and Sasuke having the same natures.
 * Hopefully, Chūkichi and the Unknown Kumo Ninja will complete the advanced natures list. —ShounenSuki (talk 12:48, December 31, 2010 (UTC)

Re: Called It! XD
I'm rather disappointed with the new nature. The effects in itself are interesting, but the concept is a lot less element-like than Smoke. Plus, Smoke wasn't my idea, it was Vik0z0z's. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:50, December 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * The wind having cutting properties is a cultural thing. And wind cooling stuff is a physics thing. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:03, December 27, 2010 (UTC)

Re: Advanced Nature Transformation Diagrams
I updated all the diagrams, but don't you want Bakuton in yours? —ShounenSuki (talk 21:07, December 27, 2010 (UTC)

Re: Talk page link
What do you mean exactly by "linking them"? We both have one theory page, so I think you're talking about the talk pages and archives. When you archive something with the archive tool, they add some links to archives and the current talk, but I think you knew that already. The way I do to reach my page without posting a link to it I can use is simple: use the follow feature. When I want to go to the page, I simply open my followed pages in a new tab, scroll down a bit and click the link. Did that help? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:53, December 28, 2010 (UTC)

Re: Chapter 520
Interesting... I never noticed that before. It could be symbolising kekkei genkai, as they are inherited from a single person down through his descendent, but other than that... I have no idea. —ShounenSuki (talk 00:42, December 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * How Nagato obtained his Rinnegan is still somewhat of a mystery. It could easily be just as much Nagato's as Itachi's Sharingan is Itachi's.
 * However, it seems Deidara and Kakuzu kept their kinjutsu modifications, so it might be that, if Yamato was revived for example, he would keep his Mokuton. —ShounenSuki (talk 03:40, December 29, 2010 (UTC)

Re: Boil
In chapter 466 page 6 Mei comments that she can use fire, water and earth, and since Lava is fire+earth Boil should be fire+water. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 12:33, January 1, 2011 (UTC)