User talk:Elveonora

Kekkei tōta
Theory: Difference between Kekkei genkai and Kekkei tōta ...

We have seen a lot of bloodline limits and most of them are elemental but some are not (Dōjutsu,Shikotsumyaku,Sakon and Ukon's unnamed kekkei genkai) I believe that for example Uchiha, which their bloodline limit is Sharingan are able to learn advanced natures (Blaze Release) I dont think its a must to have for example Sharingan to have bloodline limit ... I believe that Uzumaki Clan have bloodline limit too, but about that later. What Im pointing to is that they dont need to have some obvious physical characteristic like weird eyes, 6 arm etc. to possess one.

So there are ones with manifested bloodline limit like Uchiha Clan's Sharingan and those with hidden powers like Uzumaki.

For example Onoki: He has bloodline limit hidden (no weird body structure) and possess: -Fire -Wind -Earth And as he has bloodline limit, he is able to create advanced nature - Dust release. But this is Kekkei tota not Kekkei genkai, but why ? Whats the difference ? that he is using 3 elements not just 2 ? Yes, but thats only half the truth ... He said his master has passed the secrets how to do so ... and thats why I believe that Kekkei Tota is a combination of Kekkei Genkai and Hiden technique. So the difference (example Haku) : He was born with Ice release and to use it, he has to combine wind and water ... and I assume that he knew how to perform wind and water release since birth as well. So those born with Ice release are automatically able to use water and wind because its needed to do so ... thats elemental kekkei genkai.

But Onoki had to train the fire,wind and earth release to be able to use Dust ... thats the difference. So in short, those with Kekkei tota have power to perform advanced natures but its hidden not manifested because their Kekkei genkai is not physical. Muu told to Onoki and trained him what elements he has to possess to be able to perform Dust release. So in theory, Kurotsuchi has: -Water -Fire -Earth And thus she is able to perform Lava release because its combination of Fire and earth. So she has to learn just Wind and she will be able to use Dust release as well.

And to end it all, I will take Wood Release as well. People in Naruto world assume that its Kekkei Genkai, but its not ... its kekkei tota. To perform Wood, Yamato,Hashirama and Danzo (maybe Madara too and its questionable if Zetsu's spore technique is wood release) have to combine water and earth release ... But here it is: It was never heard of that other Senju besides Hashirama used Wood release, but why ? Not all but a lot of people in Uchiha clan have Sharingan. As I said ... Wood is kekkei tota ... thus to be able to use it, one have to possess water and earth release ... not all Senju are born with that automatically. We have seen Tobirama use water but never earth release and thats why he cant use wood. So in theory, all Senju (or people with Hashirama's DNA) that are able to use water and earth have access to Wood as well. So why is not Madara able to use Wood Release ? He possess Earth release (and probably fire too as shown in anime and its Uchiha element) but he lacks Water. --Elveonora (talk) 20:15, September 22, 2011 (UTC)

Blaze Release = Amaterasu + Yin Release
Sasuke cast Amaterasu with his left eye and Tsukuyomi with right, that according to 2nd Mizukage, genjutsu = Yin Release. So Sasuke first cast it with left eye and then give it form with his imagination (Yin) with his Tsukuyomi right eye.--Elveonora (talk) 18:54, October 1, 2011 (UTC)

Naruto's and Killer B's Jinchuriki Forms
We have seen Killer B using version 1 and version 2 of his transformation. Killer B's version 2 looks like Naruto's 4 tailed form and Killer B is able to summon/create Eigh-Tail's skull/bones to increase power of his Lariat. This is again similar to Naruto's 6 tailed form. So theory:

Version 1 is formed when the host is using his/her own chakra and less than that of Biju's chakra ... For example ratio 3:2 of Human/Demon chakra. But when the host will let himself/herself being overwhelmed with more of Biju's chakra with their own chakra suppressed for example ratio of 2:3 of Human/Demon chakra, the version 2 is formed. Since Killer B is friend with Eight-Tails, he was in control of it unlike Naruto.--Elveonora (talk) 16:47, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

Tobi being Izuna
If its not him, Im gonna cut off my head and eat it.--Elveonora (talk) 01:11, October 25, 2011 (UTC)

Replies
On the kekkei tōta and kekkei genkai theory, lots of things already stated in the series contradict it. Wood Release was specifically called kekkei genkai both in the manga and in databooks. The meaning of kekkei tōta is literally "bloodline selection", which probably deals with selective breeding of shinobi from certain bloodlines so they show desirable traits. It's an artificial selection, that's what humans did to dogs, and the reason why there are so many different dig breeds. I don't think it has to do with hiden techniques as well, otherwise Deidara would be a kekkei tōta user as well. All of his exploding clay techniques were ranked as hiden in databooks, and he was recently revealed as a Explosion Release user, which is a kekkei genkai, so his techniques are at the same time kekkei genkai and hiden. So far, that has not been called kekkei tōta, and I don't think it will. For all we know, Mū and Ōnoki simply are relatives of some sort, or even offspring of people with the same desirable traits that had children, and both ended up with the same traits, and due to seniority, Mū tutored Ōnoki on how to use it.

On Blaze Release, I pretty much agree. Most of my thoughts on this are in my element recomposition theory page. While the chapter wasn't clear on whether Yin Release is just genjutsu (meaning only genjutsu is Yin Release) or if genjutsu is a sub-category of Yin Release (meaning there are non-genjutsu Yin Release techniques, or even non Yin Release genjutsu). From the moment Yin Release was said to deal with creating shape and form, Blaze Release started making some sense.

On jinchūriki forms, I think they only things ever said about it was drawing more power from the tailed beasts. The only thing about ratios in chakra regarding tailed beasts so far is how to perform the Tailed Beast Ball. I can see the ratio being applied to other things as well, but I don't see it as something that necessarily happens in this case.

On the sixth coffin, I don't think that's a very good reason to think it's Izuna. I think it's possible that it is Izuna, but I think that it's a much too obvious choice. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:08, October 10, 2011 (UTC)

Really thanks for your time. Well, retcons are not uncommon ... it happened in Naruto before ... one chapter/databook says this and next the something else. If its really breeding, why Kurotsuchi and Kitsuchi have no such powers ?, thats right ... we dont know if Kitsuchi is Onoki's son. But why at least Kurotsuchi has no Dust Release then but instead she has Lava? So Uchiha + Hyuga = New Kekkei Tota ? That really dont explain why only Hashirama had Wood Release and why we have not seen Madara using it. Also Tsunade is both Uzumaki and Senju and she has no KKG or KKT. Deidara's mouths are the result of the Forbidden Technique he stole and it allows him to create his clay with those mouths on palm. His KKG is Explosion Release but those clays are Earth Natured. I really would not be surprised if Deidara's powers will later turn out to be Kekkei Tota since Onoki trained him. Thats why I think my theory is correct but we will have to wait for a new Databook.

I dont think Yin Release is only Genjutsu ... its many things that have something to do with "spiritual energy that governs the imagination, can be used to create form out of nothingness" I think Shadow Imitation Technique is pretty much Yin Release for example and Shadow Sewing Technique is Yin-Yang Release. Thanks you think its right :- ) Wonder what effect would have Amaterasu + Yang O_O

I think my 1st and 2nd transformation theory is right. Nine-Tails took control of Naruto with the 4th tail when too much of its chakra has leaked out and overwhelmed Naruto's own due to his unstable emotions from Orochimaru Sasuke talk. Naruto's 4 and 6 tailed forms are exactly like Killer B's version 2 transformation. Naruto's 1,2,3 tailed forms are still in ratio of 2:3 but he lose control already due to not being able to filter the hatred back then but still more or less aware whats going on. With 4 tails its already 3:2 and he is unconscious and Nine-Tails in control of his body. But Killer B and Eight-Tails are team/friends and theres no hatred with the chakra. Killer B is in control of his transformations and he can simply ask The Eight-Tail for chakra and can filter the ammount. And I dont think that Eight-Tails is draining Killer B's chakra since they are in good terms.

And I bet its Izuna :- ) Also I really like your advanced natures theories, it must have taken a lot of time to come up with these. --Elveonora (talk) 17:07, October 11, 2011 (UTC)

I think the only true retcon I've ever seen in the series is Hashirama's Wood Release being called a kekkei genkai after it was called a hiden technique. All others can be properly explained. Chapters and databooks only reveal information about stuff known up to a specific point in the series. Otherwise, we would have known Explosion Release and Magnet Release from the beginning of part II. I believe that the reason Kurotsuchi has Lava Release is because she didn't get all the genes necessary to have Dust Release. Like the bloodline was watered down, so to speak. Earth and fire are still part of Dust Release, she just didn't get the gene that would let her add Wind Release to the mixture. Kitsuichi could be the same. About Uchiha and Hyūga, not necessary, but in theory, yes, it could work, though I think it would take many generations before a proper dōjutsu kekkei tōta could appear. About Wood Release, first of all, you have to consider that Hashirama was the first one to display that ability. Wood Release ninjutsu began with him, no one before him has ever used it. Considering that and the fact we will most likely know all element combinations before the end of the war, that would mean that out of all the combinations, Wood Release is the most recent to appear. Now, using a more general approach to explain why only he would have it, people seem to be under the assumption that merely having a gene means you'll have a kekkei genkai ability. Few consider the possibility of the trait being recessive, and no one seems to consider the possibility of a kekkei genkai ability depending on more than one gene, on it depending on a set of genes. It could be that Senju clan members in general have the genes for Wood Release, but only when the right alleles (please don't make me explain what an allele is, it's kinda like a variation of a gene) are together, one has the Wood Release. That could explain why none of his descendants have it as well, because they don't have the right alleles. About Madara not using it, maybe he's saving it for when he needs it. Maybe using it costs a lot of his chakra. The Uzumaki were never said to have kekkei genkai. Explosion Release was already confirmed as a kekkei genkai, meaning Deidara's techniques, in addition to hiden, due to the technique he stole, are also kekkei genkai. That's not kekkei tōta though. Assuming Earth Release isn't a component of Explosion Release, Deidara is using a technique which is Earth Release and Explosion Release. He's using three natures in a technique (earth and the two which make up explosion), but he's not merging three natures into a single one. He's making the explosion natured chakra, and putting it into earth natured clay. He's not merging the three natures. I don't believe that Yin Release is just genjutsu as well. I believe there is more to Yin Release than genjutsu. I think that the Nara clan's shadow techniques are Yin Release, for the same reason you mentioned (shadows are shapes, which are being manipulated), but I see no reason for some of their techniques to be Yin-Yang. I have seen some people arguing for them to be Yang Release as well, on the basis that the shadows are being animated, as if being given life. Since Amaterasu plus Yang doesn't need to be Amaterasu specifically, since Amaterasu has been called Fire Release in official sources. I have nothing else to say on the transformation chakra ratio theory or the Izuna one. On my theory page, it's simply something I created where I would add things when they came to me. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:40, October 11, 2011 (UTC)

Haha, thanks again. Im glad you agree with Yin thing. About Deidara, I know he is using just 2 elements at once for his Explosion but he then infuses the explosion natured chakra into clay filled with earth release chakra so he is kinda using "3 elements at once" Aren't the Uzumaki said to have "incredible longevity/vitality" not to say that all Kyubi's host are/were Uzumaki meaning they must have some kind of strong and unique chakras (Kushina) ... isn't it kinda like KKG since its their trait ? What about Nagato's Rinnegan ? I guess the coffin reveal is close and we will see more of Naruto's Kyubi forms as well. Also the genes must be really really rare when he was the only one ever (officialy) to use Wood Release. Also question, did you not find it a bit weird that for example Dust is made from: But we have never seen Onoki using Wind or Fire technique and the same goes for Hashirama since I found it weird he has not cancelled Hiruzen's earth or used water combo with Tobirama. Deidara's explosion is made from more elements than Earth but except his "art" we have never seen other powers from him which I found really lame from Kishimoto unless theres a reason for that. Hope my Izuna and 2nd Form/Transformatin stuff turn out to be true ... Also if may I ask, is this your hobby ? I mean narutowiki admin and posting theories and stuff, whats your job in real life ?--Elveonora (talk) 01:04, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Wind
 * Earth
 * Fire

Deidara is using three elements in a technique, but he's not merging three elements. It would be like Ōnoki adding wind natured chakra to a Lava Release technique. Still three elements being used, but not three elements being merged. All those in Uzushiogakure were said to have long lives, which means the non-Uzumaki there as well. I don't think that everything that is restricted to a certain group, by definition is kekkei genkai. Jūgo's abilities are very kekkei genkai like, yet nothing was ever said about him possessing a kekkei genkai. I think that we will still learn more about Nagato's Rinnegan, due to Madara's claim he gave Nagato the Rinnegan. I believe that Madara knew that certain people, who descended from the Sage of the Six Paths had the potential to awake the Rinnegan, and had a hand in creating the circumstances that would lead to someone awakening the Rinnegan, whatever those might be. I don't find it strange for Ōnoki not to use wind or fire. It makes sense for people with kekkei genkai to use it a lot, since using techniques few others have access to gives them an edge in battle. Let's say Darui and Sasuke fought. If Darui simply used Lightning Release, Sasuke could simply copy it and use it against him, or anyone with sufficient knowledge in Lightning Release could deploy a strategy against it. Those wouldn't happen if he focused on using Storm Release. For Ōnoki, if he doesn't use Dust Release, it makes sense for him to focus on Earth Release, since that seems to be the preferred style of Iwa-nin. We've seen Deidara use an Earth Release technique to hide underground. I think there are in-universe and out-of-universe reasons for characters not to have such a diverse arsenal. Out-of-universe, these keeps them unique. If every one had loads of techniques, it would make it difficult for a character to have a differential, something unique to them. In-universe, it's because if they focus on one particular style, they become better at it. They can't afford to spread their skills too thin, otherwise they become jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none. Naruto is something that I ended up giving a try because I had very insistent friends. I don't like giving things a try because if I do like it, I'll jump on it head on. I was already active in a wiki (the Avatar: The Last Airbender one, but that wiki went in a direction I didn't like, so I left) when I began reading and watching Naruto. I'm a full time college student, biomedicine. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:47, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Biomedicine hopefully explains that allele stuff O __ O

Also the most used theory for Nagato/Rinnegan is:

-Madara gave his EMS eyes turned off to Nagato (Thats why we have not seen him using it recently) -Uzumaki + EMS + stressful situation = Rinnegan awakened. That would explain no EMS Madara/Tobi, "I gave Nagato The Rinnegan" and "Those eyes were mine to begin with" --Elveonora (talk) 02:27, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

2 Madaras ??? Whats your theory ? Also few stuff for you:
 * Man, Kishi is sure on crack.


 * I do not think that Mu and Onoki are a father and son, nor they are blood related in any way. Father and a son would not talk and act like that ... and if their family bond is of more extended line, that would make Mu Onoki's ancestor or something.

I thought at first that Suigetsu's power is a result of experiments ... But since both Mangetsu and 2nd Mizukage can use it ... Wasn't Orochimaru's experiment a try to transfer his Hydrification Technique into other people ? I don't think that hiden techniques can be transfered, so this ability must be a KKG of some sorts. And before you will mention Jugo, he was the only one with that special gene ... Hydrification Technique have more users and I don't think that Orochimaru did something to Mangetsu and 2nd Mizukage.
 * Is Hozuki's ability a KKG ? I know its listed as a hiden but here it is:

Possible or not?
 * I know we know nothing of, but wasn't Karura a host of Shukaku ?


 * Do you think that Gaara's sand controlling powers are a result of Magnet Release ? What about those eye rings ?

My theory is that he was normal before, and received The Ten-Tail's eye as its host. I think that So6p's seal he used and Naruto's new seal are the same. Naruto has just Kyubi's yang half sealed into him ... and his chakra cloak is "yang release" like or something. What if the seal was/is used to manifest the chakra of the Ten/Nine-Tails ? I think when Sage used just Ten-Tail's yang chakra, he got Rinnegan. When he used its yin chakra, he got Sharingan. When he used both, it was "The All Seeing Eye" or something: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110806130023/naruto/images/7/70/Sage.jpg
 * Do you think that Sage of the 6 Paths had The Rinnegan or something before being a host of The Ten-Tails ?

Why Nagato has not used his power to fly ?
 * Wasn't Nagato's Deva Path able to fly or something ?

I think she is one of the best filler Characters in anime ... I like her personality, appearance, background and abilities. Too bad Crystal Release is not canon :-( Its really cool.
 * What do you think about Guren ?

I think that Kishimoto has helped with a few movies, didn't he ? Isn't this character made by Kishimoto ? http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Mui What about 3rd movie characters appearing in the manga, though with different powers. What about Anko's Cursed Seal filler ? To be considered canon or not ?
 * Are some fillers and movies at least partially canon ?

From where Itachi does know about Minato and Kushina being Naruto's parents ?
 * How is it that suddenly every manga character has knowledge about everything ?

What would happen ? Actually whats the difference between speed from Body Flicker Technique and the 5th gate ?
 * What about using the Body Flicker Technique and the 5 gates at once ?

I mean, when Naruto is using his "sexy technique" ... is he really a girl/woman with "that thing down and everything"? O_O
 * I know that the Transformation Technique is not an Illusion, but maybe stupid to ask ... how is it working ? is it really a physical transformation ?

I think he is pretty lame compared to other Kages shown, namely to Edo Kages.
 * How is it that Hiruzen Sarutobi was called "God of Shinobi" ... ???

Answer please :- ) --Elveonora (talk) 18:09, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

I'm still trying to make sense of the two Madaras. The best theory I've seen so far is that, because Mū recognised Madara, and Ōnoki having fought him, Mū may also have fought him, resulting in Madara copying his splitting technique, and using it when he fought Hashirama. That would account for a deceased Madara, and for Madara being a shadow of his former self, because half of him was killed. Nothing implies the Hōzuki clan's abilities are kekkei genkai. We were never told why Orochimaru had Suigetsu, nor why he experimented on him. The only thing we know is that Orochimaru had him in his custody, and experimented on him, but nothing on his purpose for doing so. Maybe Orochimaru wanted to conduct an experiment which required a special test subject, someone with that technique. Karura was never mentioned or implied to be a host of the Shukaku. Nothing indicates Gaara can use Magnet Release. Gamabunta thought it was due to staying awake for years so the Shukaku wouldn't eat away his personality, but Gaara was born with it. I think the best explanation is that he got it because Shukaku was sealed him in while he was still in the womb, which would have some effect on him, the same way Naruto had whisker marks before the Nine-Tails was sealed on him, because his mother was the host. I can see Kishimoto giving his father the rings just arbitrarily so he could make a comparison between him and Gaara. I think the Sage had the Rinnegan before sealing the Ten-Tails. Nothing implies he only got it afterwards. Deva Path's ability is all about attraction and repulsion forces, not flight, and Nagato was shown using that. I don't really like fillers, specially when they deal with things that might interfere with future things from canon. I have no idea on how canon movies are. I have no idea if Kishimoto had input in Mui's character, though I have no reason to believe so. Something I always see that kinda makes me mad: people always assume that when something from anime or movies show up in the manga, they always think that Kishimoto is being lazy and taking stuff from the anime. They don't ever consider the idea that Kishimoto provided ideas and concepts for the anime and movies. It's something that I can clearly see his editors or someone with some say on the series telling him to do that, in order to "integrate" different mediums from the series, as a sort of marketing strategy. I don't think Anko's filler arc is canon. At least it doesn't contradicts anything from canon, unlike the Kurama Clan arc, which shows things about Kurenai's past that go against things that were said in the manga. I thought it was weird people every where know who Naruto's parents were as well. I think Itachi might have known due to his involvement in ANBU, and others, like the Raikage, might have learned due to sharing intelligence for the upcoming war, such as who the jinchūriki are and all. Body Flicker is probably simply faster depending on how much chakra one puts in it. Transformation probably creates a weak "shell" around the one using it, with the appearance of whatever one wants to transform into. Hiruzen's hype comes from him knowing tons and tons of techniques. By knowing, I mean knowing about them, not just being able to perform them. He knew how to counter loads of techniques, and according to what we've seen of him, he had loads of chakra in his youth, and has incredible chakra control, meaning he uses less chakra per technique. Strength is just one factor. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:44, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Edo Madara has a knowledge of The Edo Tensei technique while Tobi was like "I dunno" until Kabuto told him and explained. You have probably not realized this, right ? Also read/watch again the "And the darkness never came again" scene with the hood. You can see clearly that the man with a hood is not Madara but Izuna. Looks like we have been fooled and not realized this one.
 * I must say, NO. Uchiha Madara knew pretty well both Hashirama and Tobirama.

http://94.23.34.161/manga/mangas/Naruto/559%20-%20Reinforcements%20Arrive/16.png Madara

http://wvfwfwf.webgarden.cz/image/11105622 http://imageftw.com/uploads/20110731/Untitled-1.png Izuna O_O

But how is he aware of Nagato then ? When will a better translation be up ?


 * But how did they seal the Shukaku into Gaara while he was still in the womb ? ... Only thing that makes sense is that Karura was a host.

"This is the third child ... and the first compatible one"
 * I still think that Gaara has Magnet. What about the thing that Chiyo said ?

Tobi mentioned that with The Ten-Tailed Beast, Sage's power was far beyond human ... not before. The Ten-Tail's eye resembles both Sharingan and Rinnegan and we have never seen Sage's eye before the sealing.
 * People considered the Sage a God after he saved the world from the beast.


 * Well, I have seen Mui's manga artwork credited by Masashi Kishimoto.

I think Anko filler is pretty much canon because I dont see the animators going as far as to say/show things that will most likely contradict the manga and also no other explanation was given in manga and its already chapter 559 xD Also about Kurenai and her family being from other village ... pretty much possible. Kushina came to Konoha as a young girl and we have seen Kurenai while Kyubi attack was already at least 15-16.
 * Yeah, I think that most of movies and fillers characters and other things are Kishimoto's early ideas/characters that never get into the "final version"

Also, would not it be better to use a different picture for body flicker ? What about first timeskip Sasuke x Team 7 confrontation or Sasuke's "kill" of Tobi ?
 * I know how Body Flicker works, but Im asking if you think its possible to combine the eight gates and body flicker but that would probably be so fast that it could kill the user right away, LOL.


 * So the transformation is physical as long as the user will not lose chakra or the concentration by for example being hit, right ?

Onoki is old and without Tobi's/Madara's/Izuna's/Whoever's help Sasuke would be killed by him. I cant see Hiruzen defeating Sasuke : D
 * LOL. Enma's comment of Hiruzen being lame in Orochimaru fight compared to his title of professor and God of Shinobi is now as double, no ... triple as true.

--Elveonora (talk) 20:07, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Madara only knew Hashirama and Tobirama from fighting their clan and during the brief period they build Konoha. Madara left after being denied the position of Hokage, and only came back years later to fight Hashirama. Tobi recognised Edo Tensei when Kabuto used it. Edo Madara didn't know he was brought back with Edo Tensei until Mū told him. Tobi simply didn't know how the details of it. Tobi and Edo Madara's knowledge looks pretty on par as far as Edo Tensei goes. And knowing Edo Tensei isn't that a big deal, Chiyo knew about it, so did Mū and Gari. The hooded one is Madara, it's very clear. Madara and Izuna were very similar looking when young, check the chapters Itachi tells their story again. Plus, you can see the EMS in his eye, and Madara is the one who got EMS, not Izuna. If the split theory holds (I find it to be a good theory, though I doubt it'll end up being true), Madara could simply have gone into hiding, scheming from the shadows, eventually learning about Nagato. I think the final explanation will have something to deal with Zetsu as well. It was never said that it's impossible to seal something into someone while still in the womb. They just go and seal it. I see nothing that would implicate in Karura being or having to be a host. Chiyo said he was the first one compatible, probably saying that he could handle having a tailed beast sealed into him. Kushina was chosen as a host because her chakra was well suited to suppressing the Nine-Tails. About the Sage, nothing indicates that the images we've seen of him so far are only post sealing. To manage sealing the Ten-Tails, he would have to be extremely powerful already, or do you think he discovered the mysteries of chakra only after sealing the Ten-Tails? That wouldn't make any sense. The Ten-Tails having that eye could be akin to Nine-Tails and Manda having a Sharingan while under the effects of Sharingan genjutsu or influence, with the Rinnegan ripples appearing over the Sharingan tomoe that I believe the Ten-Tails would naturally have. The anime said that Kurenai came to Kohona from another village because of her genjutsu prowess, they said nothing about her family. Kurenai's father seemed to be a Konoha ninja already. I don't know why focus on the BFT, it's just speed, want more, pump more chakra into it. This isn't the place to discuss an image change, and I don't think it's necessary. About transformation technique, I think that's how it works. I won't say old Hiruzen could beat Sasuke, but I can definitely see prime Hiruzen doing it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:13, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much for such interesting talks.--Elveonora (talk) 21:45, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

So you think that Tobi: Also i would find it stupid if Tobi is not somehow Madara since Konan was about to die by his hand so there would be no reason for him to lie.)
 * Still Madara (used Izanagi to split himself into 2 people, or used Mu's technique. So he survived his fight with Hashirama by splitting into 2 people with Izanagi or Mu's technique, learned of Nagato and gave him his EMS to create Rinnegan, and now the 2nd half want it back.
 * Izuna (Has not died and want revenge and his eyes back)
 * Shisui (Has fooled Itachi about being good, thus Tobi being Shisui and his corpse is missing due so. And before you will say that Itachi used Amaterasu or crows to destroy his corpse, what if it was all just genjutsu?)
 * Kagami (He was one from Elders missing while Kyubi attack ... yes, I know all Uchihas were not there to help for reasons unknown)
 * Obito (-O_O-)
 * Zetsu clone (Copied Madara's chakra)
 * New character
 * Uchiha Clan Ancestor
 * Something only Kishimoto can come up with :- D

I never said he discovered the mysteries of chakra due to Ten-Tails ... Every living being has chakra in Naruto world. Sage was something like "proto-shinobi" xD He was just the first one that probably named the hidden power chakra, discovered its mysteries and taught people how to control it ... I dont think Rinnegan is needed for such. As far as I and we know, Rinnegan has no genjutsu powers like Sharingan ... so Ten-Tail's eye being like that due to Sage's genjutsu is stupid. Both Tobi's new mask and his infinite tsukuyomi moon look like this: http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091022225735/naruto/images/thumb/2/27/Ten-Tails_Eye.svg/150px-Ten-Tails_Eye.svg.png --Elveonora (talk) 01:16, October 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * And nothing indicates its before as well :-P