Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-24886865-20171122234112/@comment-9782468-20171218163330

Nerosmoke wrote:

I think you are the one that has the problem here. Kakashi is a sensor ninja now? lol. I am not even going to argue that I am just going to point to this when ever someone said he is not. because he can sense people now and even impressing a senjutsu user.

That being said. Kakashi lost to Zabuza when they fought then you have this ''despite his ruthlessness, Zabuza was possessed of a softer side that he himself was largely unaware of. After Haku's death, while Zabuza initially only laughs at his usefulness, Kakashi notes Zabuza is no longer able to fight to his true potential as he is secretly distraught at Haku's loss. In his last moments, Zabuza realised how deeply he truly cared for Haku,'' So Zabuza is stronger and is the winner of the fight with out anyone to Help Kakashi.

Zabuza lost to do the Sharigan and teamwork alone he is not going to be able to take on a stronger fighter in one v one inside of the Mist. https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9b/c4/50/9bc450ff96148288c10b3740ffe9a975.png

I am bringing up the thousands of old feats and the omoi feat around the time of the 3rd Raikage feat you talked about. that makes you wonder how would that fight have went if not for the guy with the rubber ball and the 8 tails giving him information. that being said if you are talking the hypothetical non-sage kage bunshin endurance vs mizu bunshin endurance that has been stated to be greater then the kage bunshin in everyway and alow full use of the users ablity's. Then we would also assume Kisame, Zabuza and Mangetsu and the other Swordsmen with mizu bunshin could make %30 %50 70% clones that would wipe the floor with the fodder Shadow clones.

Naruto made 7% Shadow clones? vs Kisame's 30% Waterclone + 6 other kage level swordsmen water clones.

Let's put the possablity of Kisame, Mangetsu or Zabuza making the insane 70% water clones to the side. Kisame's 30% clone was claimed to have super human strength and took hits from Might Guy with out braking made other water clones while holding guy's team in water prisons with water clones and then uses the giant water shockwave, shark bomb and five hungry sharks over powering might guy into the 6th gate. all from a 30% mizu bunshin.

And we are putting them up vs 12 7% shadow clones that have taken out fodder zetsu and was defeated by black zetsu and Omoi from what I remimber. that seems to be quite the differance in terms of quality vs quanity.

Again nothing anywhere showed Might Dai has weaker mussle mass then Might Guy or that the 8th gate is a power muliplayer like you said before. When Madera fight guy he made remarks about the red mist being a sigh of great power not that the red mist some power that only worked for some.

If anything the team of Swordsmen was weaker as it did not Have Kisame or Zabuza who was stronger then Fuguki and Juzo his dad fought. so the stronger team will do even better figthing the Death gate user given all the older members will still die from the fight. Mangetsu or Chojuro would add quite a bit to the team meaning a stronger fight for Guy.

The 7 Swordsmen of the Mist come from the 1st Mizukage era meaning Hashirama era meaning Madera era. if they was weak then Hashirama could have defeated the land of waves and that did not happen. So they are in fact Madera level and defeating a death gate user and tailed beast is reason enough to say they are.

When Madera was fighting the 5 kage he was standing there letting them try to fight him has he said his era was stronger. he even stoped and sat down and would not fight a hashirama wood clone. YOU really have an issue reading what I said. So to reiterate, Kakashi is not a sensor type. But as a Jonin level Shinobi, he already demonstrated he could sense enemy presence. He's already done it. No if ands or buts. If you don't wanna accept that's what he did, then that's your problem.

Notice I only emphasized two losses that Zabuza had. One, when Kakashi got serious after getting set free from Water Prison. Two, when Kakashi noticed Naruto had Kurama chakra leaking out. Both times, Kakashi quickly very nearly ended the fight and killed Zabuza. Both times, Haku saved him. I didn't emphasize what happened after Haku's death, because it wasn't both of them fighting at full capacity; it's obvious that Zabuza was shaken. Kakashi threw him around like a boy. '''But both times previous to Haku's death, Kakashi beat him. It's already been shown.'''

Zabuza lost to Kakashi because Kakashi was better. When Kakashi wasn't taking the fight seriously, he got captured, yes. But when he was set free, it was literally him vs Zabuza with no one else. He matched every jutsu and every clash, and he literally would have killed him. No one else was in the fight at that point, the others were just in awe.

Old feats. Irrelevant. Naruto wasn't in Sage Mode when he took Chidori. Those are his regular clones now. And it has never been stated that Water Clones have better endurance. If I'm mistaken, then tell me where it is that it's stated and I'll admit I'm wrong.

You don't understand how the clones work, do you? Each clone that is split off has an equal portion of the user's chakra. I used this 7% clone to remind you that 7% was enough to fight the Third Raikage. Only 7%.Now Kisame had made a clone with 30% (with the substitute technique), and fought against Guy and Bee. Naruto made 7%. Point is, for some reason you don't want Naruto to be as strong as he's been shown to be.

Kisame can't make 70% water clones because then his body would only have 30% left, it doesn't make sense.

Omoi literally took down a clone in a quick skirmish before the war. How in the heck are you comparing that to when Naruto showed the heightened mastery and durability of his clones? And those clones have beaten Kage, not just some fodder Zetsu.

Regarding Might Dai. You are so in denial it's kind of baffling. Every statement in the manga, showed Dai was inept. The Eternal Genin. Failed most missions he was assigned. He was weak. The Gates only open limiters to your chakra, that's all. If you don't have much chakra, or you're not very good at using it, then it doesn't help you as much as others. It does make you much stronger, but your own abilities come into play. Just like 5th Gates Lee could not beat Gaara, but for example 3rd Gates Gai almost certainly could. Maybe with less gates.

Any iteration of the Swordsmen are wiped out instantly by 8 gates Gai.

Hashirama didn't try to defeat the land of waves, his whole point was trying to bring peace. He actually brought together the leaders of each village for peace talks, and his generation was the one who brought overall peace to the five nations.

And when I said the seven swordsmen are not "TTJ Madara level," I'm saying they're not his level when he was the Ten Tailed Jinchuuriki. Hashirama outright stated that an incomplete one without control (Obito) was stronger than him. Madara in control is so far out of their league it's not funny. And the Swordsmen beat a weaker death gate user, and defeating a Tailed Beast is impressive but not Hokage Naruto impressive.