Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-26636534-20180830184727/@comment-33286580-20181109001531

Too late of a post... like 2 months late... still...

OROCHIMARU WINS!

i know. i know. you guys are going to go and make me revert towards Itachi winning, but before you do carefully read my entire post. dont just nitpick stuff.

WARNING! LOONNNGGGGG POST!!!

the biggest reason that Orochimaru is said to lose to Itachi are the two altercations they had.

the first was the instance when after Itachi joined Akatsuki Orochimaru made an attempt to steal the Sharingan off of Itachi and trying to do so he was caught in a Genjutsu and had his hand chopped off.

now there are important things to note in this attempt. first it was only Orochimaru's hand that was chopped off. why this is important? Itachi once got the gist of what Orochimaru probably had gone to kill Orochimaru, i mean, it didnt matter much in Akatsuki if you killed your partner off. Kakuzu always did that. Itachi had geniune reasons to kill Orochimaru. i mean, Orochimaru was after his eyes and if he could not take it off him than he would go to the other pair of Sharingan eyes, and the only other Uchiha alive was Sasuke, who Itachi was protecting all along. Itachi would never allow harm on Sasuke, who was only a child back then. he clearly would go for the kill. so in that split second where Itachi went for the kill, Orochimaru broke the Genjutsu, but was not fast enough to react to take no damage. that is why only his arm was cut off.

other important thing to take off of it is the fact that later in his fight with 4tailed Naruto we learn that even being bisected in two doesnt do any damage to Orochimaru. he simply reattaches his body back. or if the damage is to severe he can use the Body Shedding Jutsu and come out undamaged. he did nothing here. it clearly states that this Orochimaru had yet to go through the transformation of becoming a snake. the snake form being related his immortality means he wasnt immortal at this point.

SO essentially Itachi just got one better over a weaker version of Orochimaru (pre war) and this cannnot be taken to give Itachi the win.

the second victory is stated in the Sasuke vs Itachi. the fact that it was simply because Orochimaru did not know that Itachi had Totsuka sword. like shown previously in the manga Orochimaru didnt care if he was bisected in half so he simply took the pierce and didnt bother with it. so it does not give Itachi any victory.

Also in that fight Orochimaru wasnt fully reformed. the last body he had taken over had completely given away and he had yet to take over Sasuke's body.

From here on i am going to say things that are going to give me Itachi fan super hate, but just read me out and then try and logically undo what i see and only then i will hear you out.

Itachi without MS is a solid elite Jonin level shinobi. he probably ranks over Kakashi (not the war arc or later one).

Itachi is a shinobi more renowned for his skills. Itachi is more about how quick he can activate his jutsu. I mean it took the likes of elite shinobi like Kakashi too see through his attacks. he can also use Genjutsu without anyone ever realizing it. it is clearly shown in his fight against Naruto multiple times and probably that is what caught even Orochimaru off guard and he was so easily caught in a basic Genjutsu.

the problem with Itachi is that outside of MS skills he simply lacks power. i mean, outside of MS skills, his greatest ninjutsu are at best C-rank in nature. never has he shown any jutsu of higher level and if put against a solid shinobi with the same jutsu he loses the battle. Hebi Sasuke overpowered Itachi's Fireball with his own.

this one is a kicker really. even Genjutsu at what he is so reverred as he really has no feats outside of Tsukuyomi. I already said my piece about the Orochimaru one, but let us also look at other examples. Yeah he reversed the Genjustu of Kurenai, but really what did it do to her. all she did was bite her lips and she was free of it. it took no toll on her. in Shippuden Itachi caught Kakashi clone in a Genjutsu and Kakashi too shrugged it off. I know you guys will say that Itachi had only 30% of his strenght then, but a reminder that a Kage Bunshin divides Chakra equally. Kakashi clone was at 50%. now it is time and again state that Kakashi is not great in terms of CHakra reserves (in elite levels i would say), while Itachi being an Uchiha was clearly born with higher Chakra reserves. i mean this is not like the fanfic trope of Harry Potter where in the purebloods have inferior magic to muggleborn because of inbreeding. In Naruto universe most elite shinobi come from clans and Uchiha is the oldest there is. So that 30% Itachi is about as good as 50% Kakashi and yet he could not keep him in Genjutsu. also the fact that he needed to use Tsukuyomi during the war on Sasuke while Sasuke used a generic Genjutsu to help break each other from a Sage powered Tayuya Genjutsu means that his non MS Genjutsu arent really that powerful.

Yes, during the war it is said that Itachi's Genjutsu prowess is one of the best, but it is a statement that more or less applies to the 95% of normal shinobi. the likes of Kakashi sit in the 5% elite and Orochimaru could even be said to sit in the 2% super elite of shinobi forces.

and just to be very clear Itachi's greatest Genjutsu feats is against Naruto and Diedera. I dont think i need to say anything for Naruto, but for Diedera i will have to give my clarification. and as far i see Diedera was just like Naruto, a shinobi pants at Genjutsu. he cannot recognize Genjutsu and has no way to deal with them. i mean he failed to recognize the Genjutsu he was put in by Itachi and even after training his eyes for years still failed to recognize the Genjutsu used by Sasuke and this was a Sasuke that could not defeat Sai with a Genjutsu.

Itachi's so called speed at casting Jutsu may put him over elite Jonin, but Orochimaru is a Kage level shinobi. If Kakashi could see through Itachi's diversions and speed cast and Kurenai could break through Itachi's Genjutsu then Orochimaru can do all that. he is far superior to both Kakashi and Kurenai.

i understand that the small interval in which the Genjutsu paralyzes opponents Itachi can attack Orochimaru. he did so in that first encounter, but clearly failed to kill him. and after attaining the Snake form and immortality nothing Itachi can do without MS can harm Orochimaru to actually kill him.

Also in that split second wehre Orochimaru is captured in the Genjutsu, his Edo could come to his support and engange Itachi.

Now MS is where all Itachi's powers lie and make him the feared S-rank shinobi that he is.

You could say that in that split second of being caught in the Genjutsu Itachi can Amaterasu to burn Orochimaru. Can't happen. Just so you know, be it pre shippuden or vs Sasuke, Itachi had to build up Chakra to use MS jutsu. he always closes his eyes builds the chakra in his eyes and then uses Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi. he does it everytime even when he fires the Amaterasu one after the other. it isnt instanataneous so it isnt happening.

and let us be honest, Amaterasu is doing nothing to Orochimaru. Sasuke avoided being burnt by it by using Orochimaru's Body Shedding Technique and it was clearly inferior to Orochimaru's use against 4tailed Naruto. the fact that Amaterasu burns slowly helps Orochimaru there.

Tsukuyomi on the other hand is a tricky one. it will deal significant damage to Orochimaru no doubt, but there are certain canon factors that support Orochimaru here. the fact that pre Shippuden Kakashi was still able to fight even after succumbing to Tsukuyomi clearly states that Orochimaru will have better chance out of it. Yeah Kakashi was bedridden after the use, but he was still conscious where it mattered. Next biggest thing is the fact that Hebi Sasuke broke of Tsukuyomi. I know you are wondering what am i talking. it was Sasuke who broke Tsukuyomi so how does it benefit Orochimaru. SImple. Sasuke did so by using CS2 and if you know how the CS2 works that you should clearly understand that it was Orochimaru's Senjtusu Chakra that helped Sasuke break through Tsukuyomi. I know the Sharingan played its role, but there is something that current Orochimaru has that triumphs Sharingan and is on par EMS. The Zetsu body he took over. we know how that body just skyrocketted the skills of a weakass Obito.

Susanoo on the other hand is Itachi's greatest asset. it can keep him safe from most of Orochimaru's attack. and can mount powerful offence of its own. it's strongest jutsu is Yasaka Magmata.

the problem with Itachi's Susanoo again lies with its firepower. Yeah i know. I mean just powerful is Yasaka Magmata. Yeah it was used by Itachi to destroy the core of CHibaku Tensei, but remember that along with YM was TBB and Rasenshuriken, the former can desroy mountains and the later can easily hollow one, and Pein's CB could only create a moon the size of a mountain or so. the strongest variant of YM was used by Madara of all people (EMS + RInnegan) and yet it could not breach a combined Sand and Rock Golem defence. those didnt even break apart by YM. while on the other hand Orochimaru can summon three Rashomon Gates to actually divert the path of TBB of 4tailed Naruto which clearly looked like it could destroy a mountain too. and that TBB was shot way faster than the best throw a Susanoo could manage with the YM.

the biggest problem with Itachi's MS use is the amount of time he can use it. In all his battles he has only shown using Tsukuyomi only once. no more. his best use of Amaterasu is 2 times against Sasuke. and from the manga it is clear that using Amaterasu twice took a toll on his right eye. the eye no longer MS or even Sharingan and looked as if it had almost come close to losing its light.

this fact is furhter supported by the first time Itachi comes into the picture in Shippuden. A 30% Itachi cannot use his MS and his Jutsu. As in it requires more than close to one third of his own Chakra to use Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi.

Susanoo on the other hand Itachi can activate at an instant. but there is problem here too. he cannot maintain than 30 odd seconds. I know back then Itachi was ill and all, but remember that Susanoo used by non EMS users hurts the body and Sasuke, who is gifted because of being Indra reincarnation could barely use it for long without destroying his own body. luckily he had Karin and Juugo who could quick heal his body.

and just for the records, Edo Itachi's feats dont count with MS.

Orochimaru on the other hand after that first encounter with Itachi went onto to complete the immortality Jutsu and achived the Snake form. his immotality was his character in Naruto meaning he achieved his greatest power after the encouter with Itachi.

Just to give you an idea as to how far Orochimaru's power had plused is that he could not die by cutting him in even half. he could reattach himself. nothing can kill him at this point. the only time he ever came close to dying by his own admission was if he were to take the 4tailed Naruto's densed TBB. nothing Itachi has on him can even come close to that fire power.

and just to make Orochimaru become more ridiculous he later absorbed Zetsu and we know the sheer power up one gets with Zetsu body. Obito is the prime example.

Also Orochimaru has more knowledge on all forms of ninja arts. he has extensively studied the Uchiha. he is far superior in that regards to Itachi. nothing Itachi has in terms of skills can surprise him (except those 2 tools).

Also the biggest point that Itachi is always given in any versus battle is his intelligence and ability to see through Jutsu and his information gathering skills and i am like where does this even come from.

Okay Itachi knew of Senjutsu and the 3 places, given. but in his fight with Kabuto, Kabuto either gave his entire plan away or Sasuke talked about what Kabuto could do and could not. the only thing of significance on Itachi's part was that he deduced that Kabuto was going for Sasuke's body just like Orochimaru, which wasnt hard to guess given how Kabuto was more or less mimicking Orochimaru.

Itachi was also able to analyze Chibaku Tensei and find its weakness and in hindsight it wasnt that hard. it was a open and shut case. any one with good head on their shoulder could deduce that. unfortunately at that time with Itaachi were two people who were not known for the analyzing kind of smart. Naruto and B are more action type and form their own plans their own ways rather than analyze opponents Jutsu.

i will still say Itachi is brilliant. but compared to Orochimaru he is not.

i mean Orochimaru fucking invented an immortality jutsu from scratch. he has studies all forms of ninjutsu. he modified his body to the point he bacame a snake. he experimented on others and actually recreated the Mokuton whereas Konoha had failed doing so previously. he analyzed Juugo's abilities, broke it down, and created CS which acts as drug boost.

hell Orochimaru who joined Akatsuki not knowing of Obito in the shadows actually went onto find every secret about Obito and even found Madara's corpse. while Itachi who had known Obito from the get go still believed him to be Madara and didnt even know much about Kamui even when they worked together in taking out the Uchiha Clan.

Also Orochimaru deciphered the entire tablet at Uchiha place without Sharingan and MS.

in what world is Orochimaru inferior to Itachi in smarts and intelligence gathering.

so far i havent even talked about Edo Kimimaro and Konan.

Konan is a S-rank shinobi. her Paper Body and Jutsu cannot be harmed by regular Katon or Suiton. Jiraiya used Katon and Pein's summon used Suiton and yet fire did not burn her papers and neither did water sag those papers. (we could say that ligtning wont crinkle them and wind wont cut through them and like that, but that is just assuming things). the key is that Konan is shown to be impervious to Katon and Suiton, both which are Jutsus Itachi uses.

Now Amaterasu is whole another matter. it will certainly burn Konan. it should though it has never been shown. the problem is that it is very slow burn. i mean Karin was hit with it and before the time Sasuke put it off all Amaterasu did was leave a burn mark on her back and nothing more.

In case of alive Konan it would do considerable damage, but against Edo Konan it is a joke. i mean, look what Amaterasu did to Nagato. nothing. how come i am comparing those two? simple. they are both Edo. all Nagato had to do was blow away Amaterasu with Shinra Tensei and the next moment he was all new and repaired. Similarly all Konan has to do is transform the burning part into paper and shed it away and the dust and debris will regain her back to her glory in the next moment.

the same can be said to Kimimaro. all he has to do is cut off the body part affected by Amaterasu or Orochimaru or Konan could do that. the next moment his cut off parts will be reformed by dust and debris.

the reformation will be quick too. not even giving Itachi any advantage. the only one whose attacks that make the reformation slow is Naruto.

Such Amaterasu on the Edo is pure waste of Chakra, especially given that Itachi cannot seem to use it more than twice.

Tsukuyomi on the other hand is an odd one. Remember that Edo are controlled by others, in this case Orochimaru. so they dont have any personality of their own unless the user lets them have it. they are puppets and Genjutsu doesnt work on puppets.

the only Genjutsu ever shown working on Edo is Kotoamatsukami. the strongest Genjutsu. and it too probably doesnt work on the Edo, but on the seal placed on them, rewriting the command and breaking the control of the user on the Edo. it just switches puppet loyaties. the only reason Itachi remained himself is because more or less Kabuto had let his Edo keep their personality and only controlled them when necessary and the Koto was programmed to protect Konoha. if Kabuto had wiped their personalities from the get go and used complete control then when Koto was used all Itachi would be doing as commanded by the command of the Koto and nothing more on his own.

onto Kimimaro. the guy is quite the trump card. i mean he turned an entire area into bone forest in CS2. and since Itachi cant fly he cannot survive through it. also Susanoo isnt protecting Itachi from the bones that come from beneath him. and then there is moving across his bones for Kimimaro. damn.

I know i missed three major things out of my long ass monologue, but lets get to it.

Yata Mirror of Itachi. it is hyped to be able to give all direction protection against almost everything. and yet all we see is it defend against a few Paper bombs. the Susanoo at its worst has greater feats and being defencive. also the fact that it wasnt used by Edo Itachi all but makes it nothing but hype. why didnt Itachi use it? there could only be 2 reasons. 1- Itachi didnt have it with him anymore. 2- It wasnt hyped as it was said to be. the fact that Itachi had the other tool clearly means 1 is wrong. which only leaves second option. and just for instance many a times somethings mentioned in Manga or databooks are later refuted down the line.

Kusanagi of Orochimaru. i am surprised no one talks of it. the blade can extend to really long distance really fast, moved telekinetically and is said to cut through almost anything. in regards to being able to cut through anything it should also be able to pierce through Susanoo on hype alone, like Yata Mirror. it did not cut through 4tailed Naruto's body, but this is the strongest Biju we are talking about. Itachi's Susanoo no where compares to that. Only Madara's full Susanoo is said to be on biju level. and here Itachi cannot even for a full body. and then there is the replica of the swords with the thousand snake attacks which in no ways i see Itachi capable of defeating.

and the final is Totsuka blade. the only thing that can help Itachi against Orochimaru and the Edo duo. Itachi does not have the fire power to kill them so he has to seal them away. Totsuka is the one to do the job.

Now i have read most of the above post to get the gist of what is said.

first of TB has no speed of its own. it only moves as fast as the user can swing it. it doesnt have rockets strapped to it or something like that to give it is own speed. the idea that it moves at supersonic speed and like is ridiculous.

Furthter it cannot be dodge. where does that come from? it was used twice.

once again Orochimaru, who by the way had just reformed and not completely seeing that he had yet to take over Sasuke's body. Orochimaru didnt bother with dodging it because as far as he cared no sword could kill him. he was bisected in half twice and so he had no reason to dodge. if he had known it would be another matter.

now with Nagato it is very clear with the manga too that when using TB there was dust and cloud that obstructed Nagato's vision. also one can say that Nagato being able to sense Chakra and see it through Rinnegan should able to see the sword incoming. he wouldnt. in the anime TB may have been portrayed as if it were Chakra, but it is not. it is more or less sake like liquid. it is a weapon and not chakra. so Nagato cannot see it with Rinnegan or sense it. Also since Nagato was under complete control of Kabuto he isnt his 100%. he also is less mobile because of his legs too.

Also now that i have mentioned that TB is not chakra but sake like liquid transformed into a sword. it merely becomes a weapon. it is actually a variant of Kusanagi wielded by Orochimaru. as in both swords more or less equals. in that regards Kusanagi should actually be able to clash with the sword.

Also at this point Orochimaru already knows of TB so he will be sure to dodge it this time. or he could summon Rashomon gate in its path. he was able to summon those gates against 4tailed Naruto concentrated TBB attack and that thing clearly seemed to move at supersonic speed. i mean it was merely a somewhat Odama Rasengan sized TBB and yet it was creating shockwaves and tearing the ground beneath it just as it was speeding across the sky. And also if Rashomon can take some juice out of that TBB it should be good enough to block a sake like liquid sword.

DAMN! long ass post. but i just got tired seeing how over Itachi was hyped and how downplayed Orochimaru was.

I mean, for fuck sakes, Itachi even with Kisame retreated from Jiriaya who by all means is an equal to Orochimaru. Beat that.