Talk:Ōtsutsuki Clan

Clan Description
Umm...who wrote the opening discription of the clan? I don't remember hearing those "facts" in the series besides the history Madara expained. Has the Otsustuki Clan even been recognized as an actual clan in the series or does someone just want to add stuff to the infoboxes? This article seems fishy and slightly unnecessary.  Banan 14  kab  18:13, October 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * From the 4th databook apparently, check the forums--Elve Talk Page 18:16, October 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * The article's in need of references and maybe even quotation marks depending on how much of it is directly lifted from the databook. ~SnapperTo 18:17, October 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not sure how that is done, manga reference is <*ref>Naruto chapter x, page x no idea what the code for databooks is--Elve Talk Page 18:25, October 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * Rasengan ~SnapperTo 18:34, October 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * I wonder if the books should be referred to in the references as "databook insert number" or by their names, I chose Jin no Sho rather than 4th Databook--Elve Talk Page 19:01, October 31, 2014 (UTC)

You can just use either but 4th data book is the better one considering not many will know what "Jin no Sho is. Munchvtec (talk) 06:28, November 2, 2014 (UTC)

Indra and Asura
Can Indra and Asura be added as members, as they are Hagoromo's sons? --LordofBraxis (talk) 21:36, October 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * As long as we don't have their last names, no. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:37, October 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * Even if Either Asura or Indra are the actual founders of the senju and uchiha clans, it doesn't change the fact that they were born into the Otsutsuki clan. We don't remove Mito from the Uzumaki clan, do we? And in case you're thinking, 'what if they took their Mother's surname', you do realize who their father is? And Naruto's case is special, he was an orphan, and people would have been out to get him. You can't use him as a precedent. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 00:32, November 2, 2014 (UTC)

Clan Symbol
To assure no one will bitch when I upload it. I have made a clan SVG. How do I upload it? What do I place the icon under what fair use, and how do I present it for someone to put it in the infobox. Thanks! In advance--New World God (talk) 02:08, November 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * You can upload it here.
 * CC-by-sa A-S A 3.0 - self
 * You can put it here with [[File:Filename.ending]] • Seelentau 愛 議 04:09, November 1, 2014 (UTC)

Hey Seelentau, this is the symbol i made. Is there anyway it can be placed on the pages for me. Since i'm not a mod, or anything? --New World God (talk) 04:41, November 1, 2014 (UTC) File:Ootsuki.svg


 * I'm sorry, but that symbol is not official. Also, it lacks a bit of quality, I think. • Seelentau 愛 議 04:35, November 1, 2014 (UTC)

I'll take it. I'm fine with it's deletion. But where exactly do we get the symbols? There is some symbols on this Wiki, that aren't necessarily official. Not to be argumentative. It's more of a question. --New World God (talk) 04:41, November 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * How about this (I made it)? This was the symbol that was present on the back of Toneri's robes in Kishi's personal sketch of his character and is a combination of Hagoromo's Yin and Yang tattoos. I think that's official enough, right? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 07:14, November 1, 2014 (UTC)

Man, that's a real sweet design. It'd be a shame if you couldn't use it Ten-tails. Also are you using Inkscape, and what are your setting if you do use it? --New World God (talk) 08:01, November 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * I actually thought we should use that, too. It looks plain and all, but it's official, so... Oh and about the other unofficial symbols used: They were uploaded before I got active, so I don't know about them. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:16, November 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * I dig it Foxie, go on.--Elve Talk Page 12:43, November 1, 2014 (UTC)

Toneri
His name doesn't appear amongst the listed members, any fix for that?--Elve Talk Page 12:51, November 1, 2014 (UTC)

I believe it's because his page is currently locked and no one has bothered to add it in his info box. Munchvtec (talk) 06:29, November 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except Snapper added it.--Elve Talk Page 09:53, November 2, 2014 (UTC)

oh. It's still not there. It must be a bug or something. Munchvtec (talk) 12:56, November 3, 2014 (UTC)

Is it possible that his name doesn't appear in the infobox because he is "movie only" ?--Elve Talk Page 14:04, November 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yep.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 15:36, November 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * More: If he is classified as just a movie character, he won't show up in the infobox. A cheap way of fixing that was to simply add him in Anime and/or manga in addition to movie. He's technically going to be in manga form anyway (in the form of that guidebook and I think there was going to be a manga companion to the film or some nonsense) so yeah. He's int he infobox now.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 15:41, November 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Right, he is going to have a "manga" appearance as well. And for all we know, the movie-manga side-in may even get an anime episode adaptation the same way as Road to Naruto did, eventually--Elve Talk Page 16:36, November 23, 2014 (UTC)

Traits
I think horn-like protrusions, white skin and ability to live on Moon should be added.--Salamancc (talk) 20:37, November 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * We don't know if horns are common for them, just because Kaguya has them doesn't mean they all do. Also Toneri's skin appears normal to me, but he may be part human like Ashura/Indra and so--Elve Talk Page 20:49, November 2, 2014 (UTC)

so in a nutshell
basically the Otsutsuki clan are extraterrestrials aka aliens --Dayle14 (talk) 09:08, November 4, 2014 (UTC)

what does Otsutsuki mean anyway? I know Tsuki means moon in japanese
 * Wooden cannon or so--Elve Talk Page 10:03, November 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * I was personally wondering about their species type as well. So are Hagoromo and Humra even human? I know Madara said they were the first humans born with chakra, but still it seems strange that their clan originates from another world (I'm guessing in an alternate dimension). Any thoughts on this anyone?  Banan 14  kab  08:58, November 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * Madara knew only as much as Hagoromo and Black Zetsu wanted to--Elve Talk Page 12:48, November 5, 2014 (UTC)

I wonder what they eat on the moon. No... I wonder what they breathe...--Elve Talk Page 23:46, December 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Who's to say the Naruto-verse's moon doesn't have an atmosphere? Plus, couldn't they use Ninshuu to summon or create stuff to eat? Arawn 999 (talk) 02:41, January 18, 2015 (UTC)

Is that true? The translation I saw said that the Otsutsuki clan are earthlings, but they chose to live on the moon and guard the Gedo Statue.Malcasablanca (talk) 01:30, January 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * No, they arrived from space on Earth for the purpose of having Kaguya eat the Shinju's fruit--Elve Talk Page 09:44, January 18, 2015 (UTC)

Otsutsuki clan crest
like the rest of the clans, I'd suggest we should do the crest of the sun and crescent on the Otsutsuki. http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/File:%C5%8Ctsutsuki_Symbol.svg Agreed? Kunoichi101 (talk) 05:48, December 6, 2014 (UTC)

Tenseigan
The Tenseigan should get added to the clan's Kekkei Genkai. So Both the Tenseigan and Kekkei Genkai should get added to the page. Sin2 (talk) 06:05, December 14, 2014 (UTC)

so where did you found this "Tenseigan"? you need proof whether or not this is legit. Kunoichi101 (talk) 06:12, December 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * ... -_- Retsu no Sho, the databook for The Last: Naruto the Movie. You honestly think we just made that up without sources? ~• WS7125 [Mod]WindStar7125 Task.svgWindStar7125's Task.svg 06:14, December 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree with Wind Star, even it was from the fourth databook, Tenseigan is nothing, but a made-up name and not an actual name as a legit. Kunoichi101 (talk) 06:17, December 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, you misunderstood my statement. It was stated in the databook that the powerful dojutsu Toneri wields in the movie is known as the "Tenseigan." It's not made up. It's from the databook. ~• WS7125 [Mod]WindStar7125 Task.svgWindStar7125's Task.svg 06:18, December 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * XO. then should we create the dojutsu article? Kunoichi101 (talk) 06:19, December 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Already created the article. And already requested that the svg image for the eye be made. :P ~• WS7125 [Mod]WindStar7125 Task.svgWindStar7125's Task.svg 06:22, December 14, 2014 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this "tenseigan" or whatever shit, is nothing but Byakugan chakra from hundreds-thousands Ootsutsuki used by a guy. So how exactly is it any different from Byakugan? In my opinion it should get just a subsection in Byakugan article.--Elve Talk Page 10:57, December 14, 2014 (UTC)


 * A Mangekyo Sharingan is a further mutated Sharingan. Why does it have it's own article? (Basically, it's probably getting it's own article.)--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 11:29, December 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * This ain't even a "Mangekyou" Byakugan, just many Byakugan chakras put into a pair of Byakugan. If anything, it's like "eternal byakugan" just without the mangekyou part--Elve Talk Page 11:48, December 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * If I recall correctly, Suzakun described it more like a power, not an actual eye...? I think since the eyes Toneri has are Hanabi's, they can't be the Tenseigan... or maybe I'm wrong? No idea ^^' • Seelentau 愛 議 16:40, December 14, 2014 (UTC)

Kekkei Genkai
Shouldnt we add rinnegan and sharingan to the kekkei genkai list, since we know they both are blood related kekkei Genkais? --Keeptfighting (talk) 23:39, December 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * From what I understand, Kaguya gained the Rinne Sharingan through eating the Shinju's chakra fruit, and the Rinnegan and Sharingan are descended from that. They're not powers the Ōtsutsuki Clan normally possess, but unique to Kaguya and Hagoromo, and those who possess their chakra. Arawn 999 (talk) 09:59, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wood release is counted as the kekkei genkai of the Senju clan even though it manifested in only 1 of its memebers so i don't see why we wouldn't list the sharingan in the Otsutsuki clan kekkei genkai list as Indra awakened it. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 11:02, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Some assholish reasoning akin to: "Senju Clan was renown for Mokuton (apparently?) despite having had a sole user" while "Ootsutsuki Clan hasn't been renown for the Rinnegan or Sharingan" Also Rinne Sharingan and Rinnegan don't exactly seem to be hereditary. Just in one generation, Rinne Sharingan got split into Rinnegan and the Rinnegan got split into Sharingan and arm&chest face transplants.--Elve Talk Page 16:00, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * So you're saying the sage wasn't renowned for his rinnegan? And that the people (at the time he was living) didn't know what clan he was from? MangekyoSasuke (talk) 17:35, December 20, 2014 (UTC)

Sealed Eyes
The article is unclear as to what it means by "sealed"? Is it like what the Hyūga Main Family's Juinjutsu does, or do they physically extract the eyes upon birth? Arawn 999 (talk) 10:05, December 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * they did sealed their eyes thus becoming blind. and of course giving birth cause a child become blind like Toneri for example. also the reason why they sealed their eyes is because of this: "If they determined that mankind were using their chakra for evil after a millennium, they would unleash that power upon them." Kunoichi101 (talk) 09:37, December 20, 2014 (UTC)

kekkei genkai business again
What's the rationale for not listing Rinne Sharingan, Rinnegan, Sharingan, Mangekyou Sharingan, Tenseigan, Shikotsumyaku?--Elve Talk Page 15:45, January 31, 2015 (UTC)
 * They were never attributed to the clan as a whole. And Shikotsumyaku is still not Kaguya's Kekkei Genkai. • Seelentau 愛 議 15:47, January 31, 2015 (UTC)
 * Wood Release too has a sole Senju user, yet the clan page lists it as their Kekkei Genkai. Kimimaro was only known Shikotsumyaku user in the entire clan, listed as clan kekkei genkai as well. Also the Shikotsumyaku-Kaguya thing confuses me.--Elve Talk Page 15:50, January 31, 2015 (UTC)
 * Apparently the Shikotsumyaku is a weaker version of Kaguya's bone ability, which according to the page for it is not a kekkei genkai but a Kekkei Mōra. Arawn 999 (talk) 16:35, January 31, 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, then why don't we list that in her infobox as "kekkei mora: Shikotsumaku" in a similar vein, we list Byakugan as her Kekkei Genkai despite it being her Kekkei Mora for her, some consistency please.--Elve Talk Page 16:58, January 31, 2015 (UTC)
 * Huh? The Byakugan counts as a Kekkei Mora? I thought the Rinne Sharingan (and All-Killing Ash Bones, which are unlisted) were her Kekkei Mora. Arawn 999 (talk) 17:20, January 31, 2015 (UTC)

@Arawn It started here, we know Byakugan is a kekkei Genkai, but Kaguya's Byakugan might be an exception considering that she is the originator of chakra so all of her techniques are Kekkei Mōra.--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 17:42, January 31, 2015 (UTC)
 * I see. The Fourth Databook needlessly complicated a lot of things, didn't it? Arawn 999 (talk) 17:53, January 31, 2015 (UTC)
 * Byakugan is to us known as Kekkei Genkai and Kaguya has it, yet Jin no Sho lists her only as Kekkei Mora user but not Kekkei Genkai, implying her Byakugan is Kekkei Mora, unless Kishi or his staff forgot to add Kekkei Genkai as well, shrugs. But anyway, back to the main point, that being rationalizing the omission of the aforementioned doujutsu and bones stuff.--Elve Talk Page 19:05, January 31, 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, Jin no Sho does leave out a lot of stuff. There's a forum thread somewhere about all the mistakes and omissions in it. Arawn 999 (talk) 19:15, January 31, 2015 (UTC)

Well if there already started topic i wrote my rant here: Am not against placing Byakugan as Otsutsuki KKG am against Tenseigan. Why? Since no one from Otsutsuki clan have it awekened via natural eye evolution(As MS).Yes Hamura was Otsutsuki(but he was Kaguya's son as Hagoromo). So in short: By situation we have etherway Tenseigan is removed from clan KKG or it need to be added to Hyūga clan as well as Rinnegan needed to be added to Senju/Uzumaki and Uchiha clan for sole semantic reason. ./Rage gtx (talk) 21:03, January 31, 2015 (UTC)
 * That's what I'm talking about... lack of consistency and reasoning. In my opinion, any kekkei genkai naturally possessed by a clan member should be attributed to the clan.--Elve Talk Page 22:17, January 31, 2015 (UTC)

Bumping this since discussions die here so easily with rarely getting resolved.--Elve Talk Page 08:39, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * As I said, the Kekkei Genkai were never attributed to the clan as a whole. Neither was the Mokuton kkg, I don't know why we do that. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:31, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, things should be consistent. So I'm okay with whichever action gets made, I just want it fixed.--Elve Talk Page 16:19, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Bump.--Elve Talk Page 12:36, February 8, 2015 (UTC)

Of the known Otsutsuki clan members, we've seen the Rinnegan, the Byakugan, the Sharingan, and the associated forms. Shikotsumyaku apparently successor of her Ash-Killing Bones but itself is not Shikotsumyaku, unless we decided to pick and choose how much the databook is "correct". But yeah no reason to not add the Three Great Dojutsu.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 13:31, February 8, 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm very glad that someone agrees. Seelentau's rationale for not listing those is that only Kekkei "whatever" should be listed as belonging to the whole clan if there is more than one member with it. In that case, either Wood Release should be removed from Senju Clan page and Shikotsumyaku from Kaguya Clan page, or we list the aforementioned doujutsu here properly, consistency is needed.--Elve Talk Page 16:02, February 8, 2015 (UTC)
 * Agree with Elveonora (for once) in citing consistency. We cannot afford to be selective in manners such as this. -- WindStar7125 (talk | contribs) 21:31, February 9, 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm against listing the S/MS/R/RS. They were not known for their use. Maybe the S/MS, but that would require a certain that Indra's more immediate, pre-Uchiha descendants also awakened them, which is too speculative to me. Shikotsumyaku doesn't hold in your argument. Kimimaro might be the only Kaguya we saw with it, but the kk was mentioned to be rare within the clan, meaning other clan members developed it in the past. The Senju clan got a moniker because of WR, it was pretty much advertised. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:40, February 9, 2015 (UTC)
 * Not sure if publicity is a good reason. Is Kaguya an Otsutsuki? Yes. Does she have the Rinne Sharingan? Yes, she does. Members of the clan naturally have/had the aforementioned doujutsu, therefore said doujutsu hail/originate from the Otsutsuki Clan, hence why it should be listed.--Elve  Talk Page 21:48, February 9, 2015 (UTC)
 * Kaguya did not naturally have RS, it comes from an outside source. Having that as a clan thing would be like saying the Shimura clan have the Sharingan over Danzō acquiring it through transplant. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:54, February 9, 2015 (UTC)
 * A Transplant and a genetic mutation from some super fruit are two different things. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 21:56, February 9, 2015 (UTC)

While I do get where you are getting at Omnibender, the fact that (at least) the Three Great Dojutsu did move down her line does speak volumes.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 21:58, February 9, 2015 (UTC)
 * Agree with Omni, it would look incredibly odd if we add Magnet,Boil and Lava Release to the Uzumaki article because of Naruto. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 22:03, February 9, 2015 (UTC)
 * A genetic mutation would have been her developing RS on her own, without the fruit. The closest thing with genetics that happened to her was a super gene therapy. TU3, I'm not denying that the TGD spread from her, what I'm saying is that to consider a KK as part of a clan, it has to either be heavily associated with the clan, like WR became with the Senju through Hashirama, or have some degree of penetrance, expressing itself in a fraction of the clan. I would definitely not say that R is one. It happened once, and the fame it brought its wielder was not associated with the clan. A case could be made for S/MS, but that would, to me, depend on knowing how prevalent it was in Indra's descents while they were still known as Ōtsutsuki. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:10, February 9, 2015 (UTC)
 * Can anyone explain why Tenseigan and Rinnegan are Kekkei Genkai? I ask this because I think they are not passed down to next generation unlike Sharingan, Byakugan which are passed down to successive generations, even if they are inherited they remain a recessive trait and not everyone can awaken Rinnegan it takes Asura and Indra's DNA to mix and awaken Rinnegan and same goes for Tenseigan it is not passed down genetically it takes Otsutsuki clan member and Hyuga to awaken it. Only Hamura had actually awakened the Tenseigan by normal means, similarly Hagoromo had Rinnegan from Birth, and Rinne Sharingan is Kekkei Mora which was not of Kaguya because of fruit's genetic mutation even this one was not passed down to next eneration, I think since they are not inherited they are mutations, so tell me could Rinnegan and Tenseigan be regarded as Kekkei Mora as a whole and not Kekkei Genkai?--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 10:07, February 10, 2015 (UTC)

Several reasons Naruto uzu6254.
 * 1) Unless stated otherwise again, we know the Rinnegan is a kekkei genkai in everybody but Kaguya and Hagoromo. The Tenseigan being an upgraded Byakugan is also a kekkei genkai in everybody but Kaguya.
 * 2) Seriously it would be best if we just note Kekkei Mora for exactly what it is; something we have no bloody clue about. Seriously the logic behind it doesn't make any sense considering how fellow Byakugan users aren't listed as kekkei mora users, yet Kaguya is not listed as a kekkei genkai user despite having one. I'd personally argue against them (and kekkei tota) not being mutually exclusive.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 12:36, February 10, 2015 (UTC)

By your logic Omni, we shouldn't list any kekkei genkai as belonging to anyone, since there would be no kekkei x without Kaguya having eaten a magical fruit of the Shinju. Chakra isn't exactly natural, so no kekkei genkai is natural because they exist because of chakra which exists because of an alien princess eating magical fruit of a vampire tree.--Elve Talk Page 13:46, February 10, 2015 (UTC)
 * Except that barring Kaguya's acquisition, that changed her in an unnatural way, the overwhelming majority of people after that came to have kekkei x without further intervention. Your argument falls to Byakugan as well, which you yourself argued in forum threads that existed in the clan, in their dormant, non-veiny and all-seeing way before the fruit came along. Also, chakra isn't a prerequisite to having kekkei genkai. Chakra as it is has to be moulded from physical and spiritual energies. Haku inherited Ice Release from his mother, but there is no indication she was ever a kunoichi, so she'd have no training in moulding chakra, yet she had the Ice Release genetic trait. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:47, February 10, 2015 (UTC)

Thanks now I understand and I agree with you TheUltimate3, it's best that we just note what Kekkei Mora actually is, it was said for ETSB as a combination of all nature transformation, it is just like kekkei tōta, kekkei genkai. I think the Byakugan for Kaguya was added as a KKM only because her body & RS, it wasn't mentioned in databook clearly, it was only stated that all of her techniques are KKM. So we don't know if Byakugan should be considered at all, Byakugan should not be KKM because it is not a elemental combination of KKG but whatever. Byakugan was inherited so it's a KKG, but similar to your reasoning Kaguya, Hagoromo were first starting point the KKG actually started to divide at this point. Now to the topic I think the Otsutsuki clans were the originator of all things like Shikotsumyaku, TGD. we should list them with the exception of Rinne Sharingan as of now it is currently removed Shikotsumyaku is not KKG of Kaguya simply because it came from All Killing Ash Bones and is not Shikotsumyaku.--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 15:12, February 10, 2015 (UTC)

@Omni, The first two possessing chakra "naturally" were Hagoromo and Hamura since they were born with it. Their descendants also possessed chakra naturally. Everyone else not related by blood to them received chakra unnaturally and only the children of these who had received chakra from Hagoromo had chakra naturally. But that's besides the point I guess ^_ The point is that there's really no point in differentiating between the two since chakra began unnaturally in the first place. And yes, the "Byakugan" may have existed before chakra, it wasn't a kekkei genkai/mora though, just eyes of the Otsutsuki, just like I'm sure Kaguya had bones in her body before magical fruit allowed her to do fancy things with them. And every living thing in Naruto has chakra regardless of them being Shinobi or not, since they are born with it and need it to live, they need to mold the energies only to create more chakra. So even if Haku's mother didn't know how to use chakra, she still had chakra and genes which potentially allowed her to use Hyoton had she learned how to. One would not have genes which allow one to merge Suiton and Fuuton chakras into Hyoton without him or her having chakra in the first place, so Kekkei Genkai originate from chakra, no one had genetic traits related to chakra before.--Elve Talk Page 15:17, February 10, 2015 (UTC)

species classification and lifespan
Should we classify them as "alien" in the infobox? Also I haven't seen the movie yet, but apparently at least one Otsutsuki lived for a very long time, can anyone confirm/deny if their lifespan was touched upon in the movie?--Elve Talk Page 23:24, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, that one Otsutsuki dude lived to tell Hinata of Hamura's decree, but became dust immediately after that, so it's questionable if all Otsutsuki live that long. Also, they're not human, that much is obvious. Hagoromo and Hamura are, but Kaguya...? • Seelentau 愛 議 23:26, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * We don't know about Hagoromo and Hamura's father. But judging by Hagoromo's appearance it likely was one of their own. Asura and Indra on the other hand look remarkably human, so I guess Hagoromo banged a human chick, almost certainly I would say, since it's stated he was the only one left behind, with the rest having departed to the moon.--Elve Talk Page 23:37, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Hagoromo was stated to be the first human who was born with chakra though. Or am I wrong on that? • Seelentau 愛 議 23:41, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * By a person who didn't know the full story or possibly not even a half of it. Hagoromo was also numerous times stated to be father of ninjutsu, yet when Naruto referenced that in front of him, he got angrily corrected that it was Ninshu which he created. It was Indra who created Ninjutsu.--Elve Talk Page 23:46, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Well technically, Hagoromo was indeed using Ninjutsu by his usage of the TSB in his fight with the Ten-Tails. Technically. -- WindStar7125 (talk | contribs) 23:52, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

"Technically" Kaguya too and so do Samurai. But since Kaguya, Hagoromo, Asura, the Moon Otsutsuki and Samurai aren't Ninja, their "ninjutsu" is such only in modern vocabulary. It wouldn't surprise me if it was called magic in Hagoromo's times.--Elve Talk Page 23:55, February 5, 2015 (UTC)