Talk:Jūgo's Clan's Kekkei Genkai

image
I'd like to use this scene as an image for demonstration of the KKG. It's the only one that actually shows both sage transformation and passive absorption of natural energy and I know Seel's opinion on this already, him stating that it's "Kabuto's malice" rather than natural energy entering his body :D--Elveonora (talk) 13:14, September 23, 2014 (UTC)

Bump--Elveonora (talk) 22:04, September 24, 2014 (UTC)

Status
I hate to open this can of worms again, but going by the fourth databook, none of Jūgo's techniques was marked as either senjutsu or kekkei genkai, pretty much saying his techniques are neither. How do we handle this? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:32, November 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * For real? Cause unless I'm blind, he is marked as a Sage in the book--Elve Talk Page 08:53, November 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * In his character entry, there is a mark for senjutsu use, but no mark for kekkei genkai. And none of his named techniques in the databook have either senjutsu or kekkei genkai marks. There are a few entries scattered through the databook regarding senjutsu and his cursed seal ability, maybe those can shed a light on the situation. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:16, November 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * None of his abilities have senjutsu? Hmmm... • WindStar7125   WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 16:37, November 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Maybe Seel of FF-Suzaku can shed some light on this--Elve Talk Page 16:59, November 16, 2014 (UTC)

Bump--Elve Talk Page 15:21, November 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Bump2--Elve Talk Page 15:57, November 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * I've asked Seelentau in the databook translation thread. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:51, November 19, 2014 (UTC)

Obito + New Databook Info
Chapter 666, page 6 I think, is right after Obito finished absorbing some Ten-Tails chakra from Madara. Directly after Madara notes that it was correct of Obito to use "Sage Transformation" when he uses his newly regained Truth-Seeking Ball to counter Madara's. A lot of the popular translations I can find on the web just put it as 'Sennin Mode', but when I checked the kanji they were the same exact same ones as Juugo's Sage Transformation. I originally tried to edit the article at the time to include Obito as a user, but I was dismissed.

I'm only bringing it up again because Madara (and I guess obito) as the Juubi's jinchuriki are both using 'Rikudo Senninka (Six Paths Sage Transformation)', according to new databook info. And since Juugo isn't a Kekkei Genkai user, that would mean Sage Transformation isn't a Kekkei Genkai. My point is is that I think what Obito is using post-juubi and what Juugo's clan is using are the same thing. And if I had to make a guess, I'd say this technique is something originally passed down by Hagoromo as the Juubi's jinchuriki. Skarrj (talk) 23:38, November 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except unlike Jugo and his clan, Obito's (in Madara's words) "Senninka" didn't have him turn into a mutant. In fact, there was no physical change, he just deflected Madara's TSB with his own TSB-made staff.--Elve Talk Page 16:25, December 2, 2014 (UTC)

Kekkei genkai status
This continues from the above talkpage discussion.

I’ve asked Seelantau about this, and there is only overwhelming silence on Juugo’s kekkei genkai in the databook. Besides, the manga doesn’t even make a clear cut implication of a kekkei genkai. I discussed this with Elve (who supports the kekkei genkai status) in the forum HERE. I’m not saying Juugo’s ability is absolutely not a kekkei genkai, instead we don’t have sufficient information to make a conclusion.


 * {| class="wikitable mw-collapsible mw-collapsed" border="1"

!Summary of the discussion in the forum (full discussion is HERE )

Argument for: Juugo's blood grants passive absorption of natural energy, therefore it is kekkei genkai. That is, kekkei genkai are the only kind of abilities that get transferred when foreign somatic material is transferred into someone’s body.

Argument against: The above is not unconditionally correct because we have Kakuzu that incorporated foreign hearts into his own body and gained only elemental affinities, and others that incorporated Hashirama’s cells and gained a stronger life force in addition to the kekkei genkai Wood Release. The method of how these foreign somatic materials are incorporated into one’s own body also matters. E.g. Sasuke's body absorbed a lot of Juugo's cell/tissue but he never gained Juugo's abilities.

Argument for: But the above abilities (i.e. life force and elemental affinities) are not specific to a clan like Juugo’s ability is.

Argument against: Absorbing natural energy is not exclusive to Juugo’s clan either, rather his clan just has the ability to do it far much easier than regular people, to the extent that it gets accomplished passively. By that token, everyone has life force, but the Uzumaki and Senju clans have an incredible life force that's far greater than regular people's. There absolutely other abilities, which are not kekkei genkai, that are analogous to Juugo's ability. Also, some affinities are the trademarks of certain clans, like Fire and Yin for the Uchiha.

Argument for: Snide ad hominem (“Not sure if I should take you seriously at this point NoJutsu”). Passive absorption of natural energy is exclusive to Juugo’s clan. There is no evidence to prove otherwise.

Argument against: The above point just got addressed. Besides, these arguments are not meant to prove that Juugo absolutely doesn't have a kekkei genkai, instead they’re trying to show why it is impossible to argue that he definitely has a kekkei genkai. Also, there is no other kekkei genkai that can be replicated by simply applying some ointment. No kind of ointment is known to make a normal eyes become a Byakugan or Sharingan, whereas we have one that can replicate Juugo's so-called kekkei genkai.

You're encouraged to confirm the accuracy of this summary. I'll go ahead and start making the changes. Anyone should feel free to protest the changes if there is something that has been overlooked. NoJutsu (talk) 03:33, December 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * }
 * I really don't care anymore what this website does or doesn't say to be honest. Why should I, since the author doesn't care what his work says either. Then I as a reader can only feel the same.--Elve Talk Page 16:23, December 2, 2014 (UTC)

Wielders
Why does Kabuto have it but not Juugo? &#34;Let go your earthly tether.&#34; (talk) 04:29, December 24, 2014 (UTC)

Name
If the wiki is going to call this a kekkei genkai, please do follow the pattern set of "so and so's (clan's) kekkei genkai". Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:05, February 27, 2015 (UTC)
 * User NoJutsu moved the page for some reason. You can just move it back.  ★   WS7125 [Mod]WindStar7125 Task.svgWindStar7125's Task.svg 21:09, February 27, 2015 (UTC)
 * I thought you guys removed it as a kekkei genkai, just because the databook didn't list Jugo's techniques as kekkei genkai. Well, news, it didn't list them as Senjutsu either, yet we list them as Senjutsu. Talk about the double standards and hypocrisy.--Elve Talk Page 21:10, February 27, 2015 (UTC)

In the databook Jugo hasn't Kekkei Genkai ,but he have senjutsu kanji --Sharingan91 (talk) 21:32, February 27, 2015 (UTC)
 * I know, but the databook is most likely wrong. He is a Sage according to it, but his techniques aren't listed as Senjutsu even though in the manga his power was stated and demonstrated as such. Jugo's powers are a clan thing. If it ain't kekkei genkai, it would be hiden, but it ain't listed as hiden either and a hiden technique that is involuntary active at all times and makes you crazy and can be transferred doesn't make sense.--Elve Talk Page 21:36, February 27, 2015 (UTC)

I didn't simply move it back because I didn't take part in whatever the last discussion on the topic was. I've grown tired of it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:56, February 27, 2015 (UTC)
 * ^ My thoughts exactly. We really need to stop the bickering about every little thing we don't like. >_> --Sajuuk talk 22:59, February 27, 2015 (UTC)
 * For that, we need to find a common denominator. A base we can all agree on. • Seelentau 愛 議 23:04, February 27, 2015 (UTC)
 * Go with the manga and note the databook contradiction in the trivia?  ★   WS7125 [Mod]WindStar7125 Task.svgWindStar7125's Task.svg 23:06, February 27, 2015 (UTC)
 * 2nded. • Seelentau 愛 議 23:08, February 27, 2015 (UTC)
 * Really? Because on the topic of TSB you said the opposite, go with databook note manga in trivia.--Elve Talk Page 11:44, February 28, 2015 (UTC)
 * Really? Hm, maybe I changed my opinion. Or it should be decided individually for each case. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:57, February 28, 2015 (UTC)


 * In what chapter are told that this is KG?--Sharingan91 (talk) 13:53, February 28, 2015 (UTC)
 * @Seel, You said databook doesn't list TSB as Senjutsu so neither do we and the Senjutsu part should go to trivia, that's done. Yet in this case, we treat Jugo's powers as Kekkei Genkai and Senjutsu even though databook lists them as neither.
 * @Sharingan91, it's a clan ability and Kabuto got it from Jugo's cells. The Cursed Seals use enzyme extracted from Jugo's bodily fluids. If it were hiden, one wouldn't need to bite people's necks.--Elve Talk Page 13:57, February 28, 2015 (UTC)
 * Elve, the problem is simply that the databook doesn't really explain things enough, while the manga is vague about most things. I don't think there's something like an absolute solution that we can all agree with. :/ • Seelentau 愛 議 14:06, February 28, 2015 (UTC)
 * kabuto gets the powers of others always thanks to their cells, but they aren't all KG!
 * Sure all not, but Jugo and his clan all have it.--Elve Talk Page 14:36, February 28, 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with WindStar's idea.--Kuroiraikou (talk) 04:46, March 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * Bump--Kuroiraikou (talk) 12:31, March 3, 2015 (UTC)

Necessity
I know there was a huge debate/discussion around the nature of Jūgo's powers back when this page was created, but why exactly can't this information just be mentioned on the Sage Transformation article? Since when does the mechanics behind a (supposed) kekkei genkai need its own separate page? It's sort of like having an article called "Uchiha Clan's Kekkei Genkai" that's about the special brain chakra that leads to the creation of the Sharingan. This isn't a case like Sakon and Ukon's, where we don't have a name for the ability that encompasses all of their techniques.--BeyondRed (talk) 04:14, February 11, 2016 (UTC)
 * Hm... I kinda see where you're coming from, man. 06:03, February 11, 2016 (UTC)
 * That's because Sage Transformation isn't the kekkei genkai but a technique using said kekkei genkai.--Elve Talk Page 13:20, February 11, 2016 (UTC)
 * Personally, I don't actually know why this ability was named KG at all - I mean, it wasn't called a one in the series, and there's a lot of special abilities in the Naruto universe, which aren't necessarily a KG. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 13:56, February 11, 2016 (UTC)
 * Do we really know that it's just a technique and not a kekkei genkai though? I mean, we don't even truly know if there's a kekkei genkai involved in the first place, thanks to the databook. It's not as though Jūgo's ability to absorb natural energy is known to serve any purpose aside from his Sage Transformation, and all of his other techniques are derivatives of that.--BeyondRed (talk) 14:38, February 11, 2016 (UTC)

Yes, we do, otherwise, this article wouldn't exist. • Seelentau 愛 議 18:10, February 11, 2016 (UTC)

Orochimaru
Why is he listed as a wielder?--Elve Talk Page 14:15, February 12, 2016 (UTC)
 * I believe it's because Orochimaru uses Jūgo's enzymes(that is his clan's Kekkei Genkai) as part of his cursed seals? --JouXIII (talk) 14:32, February 12, 2016 (UTC)
 * Just because he injects others with them doesn't mean he himself has them flowing.--Elve Talk Page 15:08, February 12, 2016 (UTC)
 * Considering that his method of injecting Cursed Seals is biting people, it does imply that Orochimaru does have them flowing inside... Also, since Orochimaru was revived through Anko's Cursed Seal of Heaven + Kabuto's flesh and both of them have Jūgo's enzymes, that would mean that he has it(plus other KG and abilities from Kabuto's flesh).--JouXIII (talk) 16:10, February 12, 2016 (UTC)
 * Wasn't it said that he didn't possess the right body for the Sage Transformation? The right body would be one with this Kekkei Genkai, so... • Seelentau 愛 議 18:18, February 12, 2016 (UTC)