Talk:Nature Transformation

Nature Manipulation-

There is certain, mistake in this article. The article states that shinobi have only one nature affinity and additional elements are just learned by time. That’s not right, if elements can simply be learned, then idea of elemental affinities looses sense. As far as I remember it was stated that, element can’t be learned with out affinity. I have some proof (not very solid but still): Good example is Yamato, to use wood, his chakra must have both water & earth. That disapproves the fact that chakra has only one elemental affinity. Also sharingan can’t copy technique to which don’t have capability such as: bloodline limit etc. Though powerful taijutsu skills can be copied, but with lesser power and strain on the body (as it was shown by Sasuke during his fight Yoroi), but elements were never copied. Also Kakashi noted that he has more than one element and it was also explained that the element can’t be used if the user doesn’t has the specific chakra nature, be it main or secondary.

The Sixth Element-

Kuu or Sora 15:58, 29 November 2008 (UTC) (Void or Heven, Sky), is a form of element in Japanese culture, it could be the sixth element, it should probably be added in speculation section. Void/Sky is a form of element without element, it is in fact pure energy, It is part of Japanese Five Elements: Earth (Tsuchi or Do); Water (Mizu or Sui) (Flora is considered part of water); Fire (Hi, Ho or Ka) (Lightning is considered as variation of fire); Air/Wind (Kaze or Fuu); Void/Sky (Sora or Kuu).

Basically Yin-Yang & Sora are the same, but the Yin-Yang was mentioned in different context (or so I think), the difference is that Yin-Yang is also philosophical symbol, it represents the holiness of opposites and as far as I remember it was not mentioned in genjutsu context and it has nothing to do with it (well that’s my opinion). Can the Yin-Yang thing be taken out of the “Pain” article it’s speculation not a confirmed fact.

Paths 15:58, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, you're the one making a mistake ^^ Let me explain.
 * A shinobi's affinity is the element their chakra naturally leans to. This affinity is revealed using the chakra paper. Every shinobi has only one affinity. Kakashi's affinity is lightning, Naruto's affinity is wind. This affinity gives them a head start in learning that element. Other elements can be learned, by with considerably more difficulty. Learning all five at a high level would be impossible.
 * A person with the Sharingan can copy elemental techniques, but cannot use them without knowing how to transform their chakra into that element.
 * We don't know if it works any differently for people with elemental Kekkei Genkai. It could be they have two affinities. It could be their affinity is for their Kekkei Genkai element. It could also be they simply have one affinity for a normal element like all other people. The concept of Yin-Yang and the element Void have little to nothing to do with each other.
 * Yin-Yang in Naruto is a different kind of nature transformation than elemental nature transformation. We don't know how it works, though, but it was heavily hinted that it had something to do with non-elemental techiques like Kagemane, Baika, Genjutsu, and medical ninjutsu.
 * It's definitely the sixth form of nature transformation Jiraiya spoke about, although it wasn't stated directly. It's the only form of nature transformation mentioned, besides the five elemental forms. --ShounenSuki 16:20, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * About the elements themselves. The Japanese element Void is equivalent to the Naruto element lightning. Both represent pure energy. Yin-Yang and

I should diagree. If elements can be learned than the affinity idea looses sense. And besides I a different discussin you had a different opinion similar to mine. Paths 16:34, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

P.S. read this article on japanese elements it's quite interesting


 * How does the idea of affinities loose sense? It was introduced to explain why Naruto was going to learn Wind.
 * Also, in what discussion did I have an opinion similar to yours? --ShounenSuki 16:48, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

In Talk: Kakashi Hatake- /I'm seeing some back and forth editing on the Chakra Natures for Kakashi. Some people are editing in all the chakra natures, and others are saying that he copied chakra natures from other shinobi, which Kakashi said was impossible.

So can we get a list of the chakra natures here that can be confirmed by a canon source. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Oct 29, 2008 @ 22:05 (UTC)

In the manga, Kakashi has used the Lightning, Earth, and Water natures. I also happen to know that he used the Fire nature in the anime. As far as I know, he never used Wind nature. --ShounenSuki 22:54, 29 October 2008 (UTC) Just because he used jutsu for those elemental jutsu it don't mean he has those four chakra natures. What if Jaraiya could use Wind,Water,Fire,Earth and Lightning jutsu does it mean he has all chakra types no it don't, Chakra Natures is when your chakra likes a certain element or elements. Hope I helped.--Inferuno Ryuu 23:31, 29 October 2008 (UTC) I don't think it is impossible to copy a jutsu from a unknown chakra element, just from kekkei genkais. Kakashi has said that a jonin usually knows two elements, which indicate that everyone can learn how to use several of the five original elements, even without a affinity for it. And I don't think that Kakashi has learned how to use four elements, he has just seen some jutsus with his Sharingan and learned how to use them. Jacce 06:35, 30 October 2008 (UTC) I agree with you a bit, but if he has learned jutsu for those elements why does someone keep saying he has four chakra natures. Now I think chakra natures is when your chakra can do your elements jutsu easier(if that makes sense). I think we should just keep his chakra natures Lightning and Fire.--Inferuno Ryuu 09:55, 30 October 2008 (UTC) The thing is that we don't know which is his second, although I would guess earth. Fire has only been seen in the anime, and he was using Summoning Technique: Earth Release: Tracking Fang Technique against Zabuza, suggesting that he is more used to earth then water and fire. Jacce 10:03, 30 October 2008 (UTC) Everyone has one nature affinity. This is the nature the chakra paper indicates. For Kakashi, that means Lightning. Kakashi also has the Earth and Water natures, since he has shown that he can use those elements. You cannot perform elemental techniques without being able to transform your chakra into that elemental nature. Thus Kakashi has three chakra natures, with an affinity to lightning. In the anime, he even has one more: Fire. You are mistaking 'nature' for 'affinity'. 'Nature' is the element of your chakra. Your chakra normally doesn't have a nature, unless you change it into one. 'Affinity' is the nature your chakra naturally leans to. Everyone has only one affinity, but can use multiple natures. --ShounenSuki 11:51, 30 October 2008 (UTC) Kakashi has three elments lighting,water,earth thats it fire doesnt count. He never used it in the manga the whole battle didnt count. It was just fill in footage to give a clue or pictures on how the battle when. Now in manga 316 Kakashi states he has more than one. Vague but that what he says he did got in to detail then talking about nature manipulation. So he throught that out there. So logicly since in the anime and manga he uses water,earth, lighting then those are his elements that it. Also you can learn nature manipulation by using sharingun as state sharingun user cannot copy techniques that are unique to another bloodline and the sharingun user must have a body capable of meeting the chakra and physical requirements to do the jutsu. Meaning if sasuke doesn't no how to turn his chakra in to water he can't copy water jutsu. As poerful as sharingun seems it has its limitation

First of all you cannot copy chakra natures, just because he says he has more than on how does it mean he has three. What if Jiraiya or the Yondaime could use a Fire Jutsu Wind,Thunder,Water,Earth that it don't mean they have all the chakra natures. Lastly do you know how to spell, how much mistakes have you made and try make a account as well.--Inferuno Ryuu 19:14, 3 November 2008 (UTC) Also I think is elements should be Thunder and Earth cause against pain he used a a Earth Wall--Inferuno Ryuu 19:16, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Kakashi has shown he can use three elements. This means he 'has' three chakra natures. Full stop. Lightning is his affinity, his main chakra nature. All other natures are secondary. Also, yes, if someone is able to use all five elements, that means that person 'has' all five chakra natures. Only one is his or her affinity, though. This is the one the chakra paper indicates. NB: In the anime kakashi also has the fire nature. --ShounenSuki 15:39, 7 November 2008 (UTC) /

Paths 16:56, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but where exactly am I expressing the same opinion as you in that discussion? --ShounenSuki 19:10, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Somewhere at the end of article-

Kakashi has shown he can use three elements. This means he 'has' three chakra natures. Full stop. Lightning is his affinity, his main chakra nature. All other natures are secondary. Also, yes, if someone is able to use all five elements, that means that person 'has' all five chakra natures. Only one is his or her affinity, though. This is the one the chakra paper indicates. NB: In the anime kakashi also has the fire nature. --ShounenSuki 15:39, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Also, lightning can't be pure energy. Pure energy means that it doesn't has any traits or quolities, And seriously please read wikipedias article on japanese elements, that is my sourse.Paths 05:35, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia's article on Japanese elements cannot be used as a source. While the ideas may be derived from that information there is no basis to say that every last fact will apply directly to nature transformations in naruto. They are two unrelated topics. Lightning as pure energy also has nothing to do with the Lightning affinity, they are two different topics as well. As it looks, you're just continuing one of the common debates caused by people screwing with the facts. this post makes a good explanation. Ignore the quote, the person who originally posted the thread completely ignored facts like the paper test when he created his post. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Nov 30, 2008 @ 06:30 (UTC)

No, I ment that, this is my source for speculation section. The elements can't be learned, I re-read the manga few times and I don't know there you got the idea from. In anime, Yamato explained to Naruto, that shinobi tend to use their main elements because, in some cases the secondary elements are weak, and that a person can't use an element if he/she doesn't has ah affinity (be it main or secondary)Paths 08:20, 30 November 2008 (UTC)