User talk:Shinden

Hey, I'm pretty new to this but I'm up for discussions.

--Shinden (talk) 01:49, November 24, 2015 (UTC)

Sasuke isn't Naruto's equal
Naruto was stronger at the end of the manga, and Sasuke says that Naruto's stronger than him in the Boruto movie. So stop putting 'they're equal' in the articles, its false and vandalism.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 22:58, November 23, 2015 (UTC)
 * IF they were 'equal', then why did the manga repeatedly go out of the way to say that Naruto was holding back and exhausted against Sasuke? Why did Sasuke need to draw upon the power of the Tailed Beasts to get Naruto to fight seriously (but still hold back enough not to kill Sasuke)? Sasuke himself concedes Naruto is stronger than him in both the ending monologue, saying Naruto being one-step ahead of him, and Sasuke reaffirms this by saying Naruto's stronger than him while training Boruto. And we don't put 'opinions' on the site, we put facts.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 23:19, November 23, 2015 (UTC)

Hey, I just saw your comments. This is just my opinion before I state it so just keep in mind of that. You mention at the end of the series that Naruto is stronger but, in my opinion, the physical fight is a draw as neither can continue and would bleed to death should they try. This is just me but Sasuke conceding defeat is regarding his ideals, ie his hatred being overcome by the will of fire. By time the Boruto/ gaiden series comes about I would state that they have both improved. When fighting Momoshiki I would say they both show similar capability in taijutsu. I'll admit the only thing Naruto shows to help Sasuke is healing him, which is pretty big I'll admit, but they both fought together rather than one doing more than the other Additionally Mitsuki says his parent, Orochimaru, says Sasuke is the only one capable of fighting against Naruto equally so I would say by time they're both adults Naruto and Sasuke are equal overall. Again, this is just my opinion just thought I'd say why I thought they were equal. And also with regards to your comments of someone saying Sasuke surpassed the Hokage and Madara Kurama notes that he's on Hagoromo's level in his battle at the end of the series so I'd say that's surpassing the Hokage/Madara. And the being one step behind is om a personal lebel as he felt Naruto was strong in a different way by making bonds rather than being lonely like Sasuke was. He felt inferior in that sense like he did about Itachi.--Shinden (talk) 23:19, November 23, 2015 (UTC)


 * Ik this isn't my saying, as Sayian already has this, but even if it is your opinion, It was stated in the manga, and in the movie the two are not equal in any way. Even if it is your opinion, you cannot repeatedly add it into the article, as there is nothing that back up. Yes Orochimaru said to his son "The only ninja in Naruto's level is Sasuke Uchiha" Meaning Naruto can overcome any opponent easily and alone, but Sasuke is the only one to give him a good fight. Naruto and Sasuke worked as a team in taijutsu, because their opponent can absorb and copy any ninjutsu, making that opponent extremely hard to defeat alone, as not only did he have the Rinnegan, he had every Ninjutsu he absorbed, and was a Otsutsuki,who are pretty much powerful alone. Over all if Naruto was able to use Ninjutsu, or Sasuke, alone one of the two can defeat Momoshiki. But over all, even if it is an opinion, understand it cannot be added to the article, unless it is fact stated by the creator, Naruto or Sasuke. — Kinglink15 (Kinglink15) 23:36, November 23, 2015 (UTC)

I'd still say they drew in the fight in the manga as nobody can deny that either could continue when they were essentially bleeding out. So, in the manga, they are seen to have fought to they literally dropped so I'd say that's enough evidence. Again, in the manga I'd say it refers to ideals rather than strength. Even in the movie where Sasuke says he lost, he didn't lose a fight of strength as per say, his ideals lost rather than his fighting abilities. --Shinden (talk) 23:40, November 23, 2015 (UTC)


 * While you are right, they both collapsed, remember this, Sasuke was knocked out first (or woke up last.) But in the entire battle, Naruto's jutsu has matched against all of Sasuke's jutsu, that, mind you, are all meant to over power Naruto's counters and kill him, to where Sasuke told him, if he continued to fight like that, Naruto would fail to kill Sasuke, to where Naruto responded, "I don't want to kill you." Sasuke knew Naruto could kill him, but he was holding back and the only reason Sasuek fought against Naruto, was because he knew Naruto would hold back from killing him. That is ENOUGH proof that Naruto is stronger than Sasuke. No one said that "Because Sasuke said Naruto won, Naruto is stronger" No, it is for the fact that Sasuke had to even draw power from teh tailed beasts he captured and use it against Naruto, to where Naruto himself still countered it and held back.— Kinglink15 (Kinglink15) 23:54, November 23, 2015 (UTC)

Yes but Naruto doesnt kill anyone does he? He didnt kill Obito or Pain, the two being the major examples,he just has a defensive style and a lack of killer instinct whereas Sasike is prepared to kill. Naruto had to counter Sasukes Indras Arrow Naruto had to use two varianrs of Rasenshuriken. With regards to the tailed beasts they both had acceess to but Naruto had a more complete version of their power as he could draw on it properly. They fought to the point neither could move. On that evidence they're clearly evenly matched as had Naruto being holding back he would have been in a better state than what he was. In their final come together Kurama and Naruto knew it was their final attacl as well as Sasuke's final attack. Thats when it ended,draw. Thats what I see anyway. --Shinden (talk) 01:38, November 24, 2015 (UTC)
 * Shinden, you're wrong. Naruto was said, by Sasuke's own words, that Naruto was stronger than him. Naruto defeated him, that you can't deny. Not only that, Naruto was handicapped majorly in the battle: he was exhausted and holding back. Naruto was also conscious at the end of their final clash while Sasuke blacked out (hence why Naruto asked if he was done sleeping). Shinden, Sasuke lost. You can't argue otherwise without denying the manga.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 08:24, November 24, 2015 (UTC)

You're saying I'm denying things when you refuse to acknowledge  the blatant  fact that the fight was a draw. Neither could continue. Sasukes ideals lost but the fight was a draw. That is my point. Im not saying Sasuke didn't lose the battle,im saying the physical fight was a draw but Sasukes ideals,  his Curse of  Hatred,  lost to Narutps Will of Fire. The stremgth he refers to was making bonds. Sasuke thought making bonds made him, weak whereas Naruto made bonds and turned his loneliness into strength.http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/698/16 on that page there Naruto asks if they're dead whilst Sasuke says they slept until morning. On this page http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/698/8 Naruto knows if either of them move they'll die. My point is in a fight they're equal but on their ideals, ie Curse of Hatred and Will of Fire, Naruto is superior which I will admit. I think you're failing to distinguish the difference. --Shinden (talk) 18:24, November 24, 2015 (UTC)
 * In a physical fight, Naruto held back the entire battle and wasn't even at full strength against Sasuke. This was blatant in the manga. Sasuke even had to power up to just reach the level Naruto was fighting at and Naruto still fought without the intent to kill. And after their final clash, Naruto was conscious while Sasuke passed out, that means Sasuke lost the fight.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 19:37, November 24, 2015 (UTC)

He was holding back at the start,I admit, but he knew he couldn't or else he'd die hence Sasuke said that. The fight is symbolic of the brothers, Indra and Asura, they're equal. I saw a statement that summed it up: the end of the fight to mean they were equal in strength (as shown by the draw) but Naruto's spirit is what prevailed allowing him to win. "They both tried their hardest, they tied. If you don't get the entire message of the brothers being equal now, I don't know what to tell you", this shows that Naruto's Will of Fire overcame and redeemed Sasuke. And Naruto doesn't ever intend to kill anyone but does that mean he holds back against everyone? no. Neither could continue to fight. If you think Naruto could have continued to fight, you yourself are contradicting what Naruto himself said. And finally, you realise they both slept through 'til morning which I used the manga as a reference.--Shinden (talk) 19:58, November 24, 2015 (UTC)