Talk:Tailed Beast/Archive 1

Speculation, please remove if innapropriate
The first three Biju seemed to have been linked to elements (wind, fire, water), and the fourth to the ability to fuse elements. Kyuubi's main trait seems to be its regenerative ability.

It seems to make sense that at least two more Biju (probably already held by Akatsuki, though), would correspond to earth and lightning (which would have held out with the fakelore, too, as well as "real" japanese yokai). That leaves two - since ninjutsu are well covered, taijutsu and genjutsu ability would fit well.

Since the eight-tails is so closely tied to snakes (it's probably not actually Orochi, since it only had one tail, but another snake is probably a good bet - if it is Orochi, it's a good bet that Sasuke or Kabuto has unwittingly become it's host, since Kishimoto went to such pains to make it clear Orochimaru wasn't truly dead), and both are closely associated with genjutsu (which would further imply Sasuke, soon-to-be master of genjutsu), that would help. Then you've got one of the other three (five, six, seven) - I'd put money on the seventh, as it's one of the special numbers (along with four and nine, which also got special abilities).

Sooo, yeah, this is all speculation - again, if it's inappropriate, please remove it.KrytenKoro 05:16, 19 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Ya, speculation doesn't belong on a wiki. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Aug 19, 2007 @ 06:13 (UTC)

Constrast to this if a tailed beast goes to long without a host, it can lose its intelligence and become nothing more than a giant animal thus making it weaker. <-- is there any source for this?


 * I don't remember the chapter, but I believe it was in the comic where Tobi and Deidara captures the Three Tails. Deidara mentions that because the thing didn't have a host for so long, it became weaker because it lacked the intelligence to control its own power.--TheUltimate3 04:29, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Internet-based fakelore?
What evidence is there that the Legend of the Tailed Beasts portion is all fake? I compared the information from the hyperlinked source with Wikipedia, it it proved to be accurate (unless the Wikipedia articles "mysteriously" were made after the posting of the forum information). --Dubtiger 03:57, 6 December 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the real question here is; What evidence is there that the Legend is true? There is no mention of the full tale posted there on any non-fansite source. And surely no official resource documenting it. It is true that there are various tales on different creatures from different mythology. However there is no mention of them having anything to do with each other. That story itself is fakelore, just created in a similar way to how Masashi Kishimoto most likely came up with ideas for the original story... By drawing on various and separate tales in mythology, and taking pieces of each of them to create ideas for the story. But there was no real folklore where all the beasts were together in one story. Then you also have to do some logical thinking, the referenced post states "Featuring the Nine Bijuus from the Japanese Legend and the tale itself, this is a brand fresh official collection of information." Other than the fact that it's not an official thing, it states there that it's a collection of information. Meaning that this story has never been written in full before. So, since it's written after the Naruto story has already been written, it's not possible for Masashi Kishimoto to have used the story to create his story.
 * It is most likely that the people took information from the naruto series, and read up on various other folklore, and attempted to create some new fakelore similar to the naruto series out of it. Just to try to create a single source that Naruto was created from, when Naruto was really created by bits and pieces of various stories.
 * I took a look for that Tools of Power information, and only found a source which directly took information from the Naruto series.
 * ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Dec 6, 2007 @ 06:01 (UTC)


 * Updated section, with references as well. The author also admitted that the story was fake. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Mar 15, 2008 @ 09:12 (UTC)

I have a feeling...
Someone is probably going to take issue with the addition of the tailed beasts 5-8. But, I see no reason not to at least mention them, even though we have no information, beacuse otherwise they'll probably just end up as stubs somewhere. And as for the information on which have been captured and which have not...(more than just 5 and 7 may have been captured, I'm not positive on any other captured ones except these) I'll try to illustrate so that you can see it for yourself...you should look at a picture of the statue at the same time to get a feel for my crude limitations... The statue's got nine eyes. And when a biju is added, a pupil forms in one of the eyes. So...chapter 256: it looks like this:

-- _ o-

-o  -- where o is an eye filled in. Well, right away, the center line can be identified as kyubi's spot. Then we see in 261, after ichibi is drawn out:

-o _ o-

-o  --  meaning that #1 goes there.

We also know that none of the first four, until 261, have been drawn out yet. So deductively (and symmetrically, which is the only way it really makes sense):

2 1 5 6

...9...

8 7 3 4

Unless later contradicted by Kishimoto, this must be it. So I think it is reasonable to conclude that 5 and 7 have already been captured and sealed. Jhbartlett 06:55, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


 * You're right, I did. I rolledback, mainly because we have no info on them. Nothing at all. Adding them now would for the most part be pointless and attract all the anons who think they know what the beast is will try to "correct" the information. --TheUltimate3 11:04, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't we already know...
Don't we already know that Akatsuki has captured the 5- and 7- tailed beasts, and the 8-tails and 9-tails are the two they don't have yet? I don't remember exactly what chapter, but I recall some Akatsuki talking about who they were going to go after shortly after Hidan and Kakuzu were killed. Akatsuki was deciding who to go after next; Itachi was going to fight Sasuke, and somebody else was discussing which of the remaining two tailed beasts to go after. Pein or someone told them to leave the Kyuubi (9-tails) for last, and I'm almost positive that the Hachibi (8-tails) was mentioned as the other remaining beast. I apologize for not remembering what chapter this was in or anything.

Also, there's that eye-positioning theory that a few people have talked about. I think I saw a diagram of an eye-positioning theory once where each column of 2 added up to 9... if the remaining eye-less eyeball is the one above/below Gaara's eyeball, this would also help confirm that Hachibi is the remaining beast.


 * You are most certainly right. It is strange that they would skip 5, 6, 7, and 8 but now we know. It is safe to put in a section on the Eight Tails because we have at least two facts on him but we can also put them in. But what my opinion is that each and every Tailed Beast have its own article just like how we never do like "List of Major Naruto characters" and instead we do a single article for each character. --Kakashi Sanbunshin Namikaze talk | contribs 10:41, 15 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Yes, this article should be split up into individual articles on the tailed beasts. I've noted that kind of stuff many times before. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Jun 15, 2008 @ 18:48 (UTC)


 * Here is a list of sections that I will turn into articles. Please help:
 * Jinchuriki (done)
 * Two-Tailed Demon Cat (done)
 * Three-Tailed Beast (done)
 * Four-Tailed Beast (done)
 * Eight-Tailed Beast (done)
 * --Kakashi Sanbunshin Namikaze talk | contribs 19:52, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The section on the nine tails should also be merged with it's article and the section should be turned into an include. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Jun 16, 2008 @ 06:33 (UTC)
 * And to be fair, the Four-Tailed Beast is all but done. Other than the information we got already there is no info on it.--TheUltimate3 10:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Merging the section of Kyubi with the main article is complete and was turned into an include. Done! --Kakashi Namikaze (talk | contribs) 21:54, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect capitalization
We don't use "Uchiha Clan". We use "Uchiha clan". So why not rename it to "Tailed beasts" instead of "Tailed Beasts"? And then I can fix up all double redirects. --Kakashi Namikaze (talk | contribs) 22:00, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * And I also believe that the original Wikipedia article didn't capitalize the "b" in "beasts". --Kakashi Namikaze (talk | contribs) 22:01, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Sound's good. That way tailed beasts can be used in articles, they're not really proper nouns so all lowercase should be used in articles. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Jul 1, 2008 @ 08:16 (UTC)


 * "Clan" isn't capitalized because it's not a title; it just means "family." The "Beasts" in "Tailed Beasts" is capitalized because that's part of the title.

Four-tails
The Four-tails using "many elemental fusions" is a mistranslation. It really uses an element called Youton (熔遁), which could be translated as "Melting Release". It's probably related to lava (熔岩, Yougan). --ShounenSuki 12:47, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm not to sure about this. First, Kisame noted that several element types was Kakuzus job, and this section is your only contribution. Jacce 12:59, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * I understand your suspicion.
 * To introduce myself, I'm active on NarutoForums, where I've translated a lot (although I don't do entire chapters, because of lack of time). I also used to ahve a page explaining the meanings and backgrounds behind the names of Naruto characters, but that site is now down.
 * I've also translated a couple of entries from the databooks and fanbook.


 * That said, Kakuzu isn't even mentioned in chapter 353 (the chapter with the Yonbi), except to say he and Hidan had been defeated.


 * I do hope you'll trust me. I'm an avid fan of Naruto, and with my knowledge of Japanese, I believe I could make a good addition to this Wiki. --ShounenSuki 13:15, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * From the bottom of my heart, sorry. I thought I saw Kisame complain about his beast but after reading chapter 353 and several chapters after that, I coulden't find him saying that. And I haven't read many forums about Naruto, not Narutopedias or anyone else, but as long I don't find any vandalism with your signature, I will trust you. Jacce 13:56, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Thank you, I won't betray your trust.
 * I'll go ahead and change it in the article then --ShounenSuki 14:02, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't exaggerate my value, I'm quite sure some more people has opinions too. Jacce 14:11, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Is there anyway you can provide proof of this before you change the article. I have looked at 2 different sites and each one said elemental fusion.--TheUltimate3 14:55, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Provide proof? I'll try.
 * On page 3 of chapter 353, Kisame says 「"四尾"の熔遁を使うこの人柱力...」 (" 'Yonbi' no youton wo tsukau kono jinchuuriki...").
 * 四尾 yonbi - Four-Tails
 * の no - The possessive particle. A bit like 's in English.
 * 熔遁 youton - I'll explain this in more detail later.
 * を wo - The direct object particle. It marks the word or phrase in front of it as the direct object of the following verb. In this case, it shows what is being used.
 * 使う tsukau - To use
 * この kono - This
 * 人柱力 jinchuuriki - Well, Jinchuuriki. I don't think I need to translate this, right?


 * So the phrase becomes: "Four-Tails' Youton using this Jinchuuriki," or in more proper English "This Jinchuuriki who uses the Four-tails' Youton".


 * Now about Youton. As you might be able to see from the kanji (熔遁) it's the same kind of word as Katon (火遁), or Mokuton (木遁). This already indicates we're talking about a new element here. Most likely a combination of two basic elements, in the same manner as Mokuton and Hyouton.
 * The last kanji (遁) means "release" (Katon = Fire Release, Mokuton = Wood Release).
 * The first kanji (熔) is a rather rare kanji (the more common version would be 溶), which is what probably caused the mistranslation.
 * It means "to melt," "to thaw," or "to dissolve". As an extension of the dissolve meaning, it can also be translated in certain contexts as "to fuse" (however, it still emphasises the melting of two substances until the merge together to form a new substance). This last meaning probably also caused the mistranslation.


 * This would make the translation of Youton "Melting Release". Since the kanji 熔 is the first kanji in the Japanese word for lava, it's likely that this Melting Release has something to do with this. Thus, another translation could be "Lava Release," or "Lava Element".


 * So the final translation would be "This Jinchuuriki who uses the Four-Tails' Melting Release".


 * On a final note, if it had been "many elemental fusion," the sentence in Japanese would go something like 「多くの"性質変化"のコンビーを使うこの人柱力」 "Ooku no 'Seishitsu Henka' no konbī wo tsukau kono Jinchuuriki". Literally translated: "This Jinchuuriki who uses many combinations of 'Nature Manipulations' ".


 * I hope I explained the mistranslation now and proved that it's really "Youton" and not "many elemental fusions". --ShounenSuki 20:28, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I was hoping for links or something that confirmed it that. Preferably not a website forum. Thats all good information, but themselves could be fake or wrong.--TheUltimate3 21:29, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


 * You should have more faith in what ShounenSuki, who can clearly read Japanese, says than what scanlations say. With scanlations, whatever translation comes out first gets plastered everywhere, even if its wrong. Look up yō if you need more proof.


 * It has nothing to do with faith in one person. But I've been searching and the only place where this is found is NarutoFan.--TheUltimate3 04:09, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Why should the number of places its discussed matter? The translation is wrong, simple as that. Here is a scanlation that mentions magma, and here is where the original translator suggests it could be melt. It should at the very least be mentioned in the article that there are differing definitions of "Youton". Something like: "The four tails has the ability of ".


 * Well the issue would be that we're an encyclopedia and for the most part, we avoid the original research and go with what can be cited. Plus, few of us here can verify your Japanese translations, and original Japanese translations come in very sceptically when there are no other well known Japanese users to verify a translation is accurate enough to even be considered when there are no good sources to back it up. Unlike Wikipedia we don't have dozens of people who know Japanese that can cross reference each other and help point out when someone doesn't actually know what they say they know, stepped over off the knowledge that they do know, might be using a little bit of reference that can't be relied on as much, or just made a mistake. Japanese translation can be very tricky, especially in the areas of Anime/Manga where that is twisted at some points sometimes. So we have to be very skeptical when someone comes in and says they know Japanese, and gives out translations which don't have good citeable backgrounds to them.
 * Anyway, I asked Yukichi (Wikia's Japanese Community Team Member) for a little bit of help here, just hold up for a bit. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Jun 21, 2008 @ 08:56 (UTC)


 * Here's another translator using Youton. I also once double-checked my translation with one of the most famous translators of NarutoForums, Nihongaeri, and he told me in a PM that he agreed with me.

Based on my overall impression of his Japanese competency, I'm fairly certain Hisshou had never run into the character 熔 before (it's not on the jouyou list and is commonly replaced with 溶), and as a result relied on a 漢英 character dictionary (quite probably the edict one, based on the result, since the first translation listed is "fuse") to produce his translation. The character, if you look it up in a regular Japanese character dictionary, has entries like this one from 漢字源.

①｛動｝とかす. とける（トク）. 金属を熱してとかす. また、金属が溶ける.

Granted, the English "fuse" can actually be said, pretty much, to have this specific meaning. That said, your average native-English speaker is more likely to think of the "blend two things together" sense, as would appear to be the case with Hisshou.

Long story short, I agree with you. Based on the jutsu/chakra explanations that have appeared so far in part two, it seems most natural to assume that youton is intended to be one of those mokuton/hyouton-like auxiliary elements, produced through the combination of two of the main elements (presumably fire and something else).
 * I'm sure he won't mind if you verify this with him.


 * I understand, and actually welcome your scepticism, but you have to remember one thing. All translations are technically original research.
 * Especially when it comes to someone like HisshouBuraiKen (A person known to spice up his translations and who prefers speed over accuracy), one has to be very careful with the translations. --ShounenSuki 12:29, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi all,

I'm Shun, Japanese.

I don't know about Naruto well, but 尾獣 and http://d.hatena.ne.jp/naruto_AG23/20071005 are related to this article. In the latter page, Four-tailed beast uses Youton, which is mixed by many different elemental fusion. As ShounenSuki says, "熔" don't mean Magma, so in this case, it's not related to fire or similar element. Is this OK? --Yukichi 12:46, 21 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Hi Shun, The page you linked to first says that his original thought is something magma related, but points out that there must be a reason for using the nonstandard 熔 instead of the jouyou 溶. He goes on to reference the original English translation from Hisshou and makes a case for Hisshou's version - specifically, his interpretation being that the Four-Tails used techniques combining three basic elements.

Oh sweet, wasn't aware we had a third elemental fusion. Since Kakashi defines elemental fusion as a kekkei genkai, should we list this with the rest of them, even though Kisame seems to imply that the Four-tails is able to do it through sheer strength? Namikaze Suigetsu 17:37, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Eight-Tails
It was never stated which Bijuu was the last one remaining. It might be the Eight-Tails, but it could just as easily be the Five-Tails, Six-tails, or Seven-Tails. --ShounenSuki 09:21, 25 June 2008 (UTC)


 * It was stated in the manga (chapter 403) that all of the beasts were captured except the Kyubu and Hachibi. --Kakashi Namikaze (talk | contribs) 10:16, 25 June 2008 (UTC)


 * That was a mistranslation. It is only said that Akatsuki has 7 Bijuu. Nowhere is it said exactly which Bijuu they have, or exactly which Bijuu they still need to capture, besides the Kyuubi. --ShounenSuki 10:27, 25 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Umm...there are 9 Bijuu. If they have 7, the only ones left are the Hachibi and Kyuubi. 9-7=2. LapisScarab 19:52, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:World_of_Naruto#Eight-tails