Board Thread:Naruto Discussions/@comment-12509038-20141124214040/@comment-26023629-20150124032135

Wow! So much to say!

Well, on the matter of the combat, I still say the strategy was better and more clever in the first part. In part II it was basically "find out how to stop the OP guy" rather than truly outwitting them. The enemies all relied on outright brute force and it was only Naruto and his buddies who actually strategized about anything. Even then, the strategy was just working around the enemy's techniques. Like how they beat Obito's Kamui: it only worked because Kakashi had his other eye. Or, the ways they beat Madara and Kaguya's techniques, which wasn't really by figuring out how they worked so much as getting new techniques to counter them. For instance, Naruto and Sasuke's new powers letting them see Madara's shadows, Sasuke's sudden Rinnegan allowing him to teleport, etc.

The first series was chock full of new and fascinating ideas. The Aburame's bugs, Nara shadow techniques, puppetry, Akimichi multi-size tricks, gentle fist, the eight gates, Orochimaru's body- modified minions, the various genjutsu, clone techniques, all sorts of clever uses for the basic transformation, body flicker, and sealing techniques, and so on and so on. In part 1, any shinobi could feasibly be a life- threatening obstacle, like a real life soldier. As the series progressed, all the simplistic stuff tended to get lost along the way, and everyone got so powerful that it sorta became like a wrestling match with all the power moves and crazy overkill attacks. The value of human life and the terrifying threat that an enemy combatant truly represents kinda go away when everyone is just annihilating Oto Jonin and White Zetsu just by coughing.

I'm not denying that part II had any clever or subtle things in it's action scenes: Hidan and Kakuzu's fights, Deidara and Sasuke, Deidara and Gaara, and so on. It's just that the first part was far more subtle. You could believe that average joe schmoe could stand up to the tougher guys with the right strategy (save Gaara and Naruto, but they're different). At the end, though, no matter how clever they are it feels like all their victories are based off of random deus ex machina number x. Again, I'm not saying there wasn't any thought put into many of these fights, but somewhere around the Kage summit bit it just there just came too much "if you can't beat 'em, get a new technique".

Here's another thing about the action in part II: all too often those clever strategies are simply quashed or made useless by some ridiculous super technique.

For example: when Naruto and co. cleverly deduce the connection between Kakashi and Obito's Kamui and use that to land a solid blow, it does a grand total of absolutely nothing in the fight overall. When They fight Kaguya, what beats her? The sealing technique that Hagoromo gave them, of course. The fact that they created so many clever workarounds really didn't mean much, as once again, deus ex machina won the day.

How about the fight with Shikamaru and the zombie combo? Wasn't it clever how Shikamaru got Hidan to destroy one of Kakuzu's hearts? Well, it was a nice contribution, but that heart would've been destroyed anyway when Naruto arrived with his giant windy death ball. Yeah, it delayed Kakuzu long enough to keep him from killing Kakashi, but let's face it: that's only there so his strategy wouldn't seem totally pointless. It's like a consolation prize.

Then, Konan vs. Obito! She figured out that his intangibility only lasts 5 minutes. That's awesome! You're a badass, Konan! Also, paper bombs in your paper ninjutsu? This was really well planned out. But, I'm afraid that your efforts were in vain, because Uchiha are even more OP in part II than they were in part I.

Sasuke vs. Itachi! Awesome fight! My favorite part is definitely Sasuke using Kirin, how awesome was that? Unfortunately, though, Susanoo happened. Sorry Sasuke, but Uchiha OP. Wait, you are an Uchiha. Well, hey, all the better for you.

I think that part of the problem is that the story sort of screwed itself on the whole tailed beasts thing. They're just too ludicrous, and all the battles feel dehumanized when everyone starts pulling out reality rewrites and stuff like that; and all of the techniques Naruto and co. get in part II just start amounting to power ups at some point. Sage mode, yay!

I just feel that most of the techniques from the first part were more interesting. There are exceptions: Deidara, Konan, Hidan, Sarsori; all cool ideas. But many of the techniques were things like powerful dojutsu, or Sage mode techniques, or space-time ninjutsu, which are really cool the first few times but kinda get old after a while.

That said, I did somewhat like that Part II had more advanced natures in the mix, after part I only had Haku and Hashi (which were poorly explained at the time).

I can see why you like the action in part II, but past a certain point it really lost the magic for me, though it may be that the final arc just sort of spoiled it all for me.

As for the plot, I think our disagreement is just a matter of taste. I like my stories to be more, for lack of a better word, human. I like to see more real- life issues addressed, and I don't think Naruto did that very well. I don't really think a story needs to be quite so "plot driven" as part II was; I, personally, would have liked to see a story that followed Naruto as he matured into the role of a responsible leader in an imperfect world. I understand why others would like the story's optimistic take on things, but that doesn't really speak to me as a person. I'd have wanted to see Naruto's naive ideals challenged, not by blatant villains that want to put the world to sleep, but by real, deep- seated hatred and conflict. I wanted to see a 4th shinobi world war that was actually between shinobi, not between the world and a couple of jerks with with a primordial rage- monster. I'd have liked the series to end with Naruto, the new Hokage, stronger and wiser for his troubles, working hard to make a better world that he may not live to see.

That's the kind of story I like, but if you like it the way it is more, I can't disagree with you. There's something to be said for a story that's as optimistic and ultimately simple in message as this one is. I won't deny that there's an appeal to this kind of thing. It's why I love to watch the classic Star Wars trilogy, or fight Ganon for the hundredth time. Stories don't have to replicate life perfectly to be great, and I think the fact that this one reached so many people makes it great regardless.

And, hey, we're different people with different opinions.

On the Naruto prophecy: I did not even remember Naruto being told about his great destiny. Well, yeah, I gotta agree with you there, 100%. It's really lame that Naruto just accepts that. I dunno, I guess I don't really have much more to say about it.

The discussion about Hinata and Sakura was really more about their characters, in my eyes. I don't care about the pairings, I care about the characters in those pairs, and well, I think they're not as good of characters as they could have been due to the ways those relationships played out. I don't think that any of the female characters, really, were quite as well written as they could have been, but I won't elaborate on that in this post as I've already covered as much ground on that subject as I care to at the moment.

Right. Other characters. Ok, I'll do Sasuke.

Sasuke... is interesting. I quite like him in many respects. I feel his background is a very interesting story. It delves into the sort of issues I wanted to see the Naruto series explore: the hatred of a victim, and all the powerful emotions that losing those close to you can bring up. I think that, throughout part 1, Sasuke is actually very well done.

Well, save for one thing. The fact that Itachi was his brother.

That fact is the sort of thing that changes Sasuke's situation from a very real and very terrible happening into more of a soap opera sort of thing. It's like how all of Spider-Man's villians happen to be people he knows. Having his clan's killer be his brother just ups the tragedy factor to cartoonish levels. Had his clan been massacred by some other nation as an act of political intrigue, I think that Sasuke would be a perfect foil for Naruto's idealism: just one of the many victims of years of war and hatred, but so much closer to home because he knows him.

In part II, I feel that Sasuke becomes a weaker character. Don't misunderstand: the idea that a victim of genocide would turn around and become a brutal war maker is absolutely perfect, and exemplifies the circular nature of hate and war. Sasuke would have been an ideal antagonist for the whole of part II; the victimized orphan becoming the very sort of harsh, brutal military leader he hates so much; a figure both tragic and truly terrifying.

Unfortunately, part II trivializes Sasuke's struggles by introducing the concepts of transmigrants and the curse of hatred. In part 1, we Sasuke's rage and hate stem from his past. We feel for him and identify with his struggles.

In part II though, they say "No! Sasuke is so filled with hate not because of war and genocide, but because hatred is in his blood!". Part II says, "He was always going to fight Naruto at the valley of the end, not because the two were shaped differently by their experiences in this brutal world, but because they're transmigrants, so they just do that".

Now, I do very much like the idea of the Leaf being responsible for the Uchiha genocide, and I very much like the idea of Sasuke seeking the villages destruction.

Really, all the stuff with Obito, Madara, and the Ootsutskis is what I feel kept the plot of Naruto from being as great as I honestly believe it could have been.

I think the perfect resolution to the story would involve Sasuke starting a 4th shinobi war, with Naruto eventually defeating him. The story would end with Nartuo speaking to Sasuke in prison, telling him that in spite of all that has happened, he won't give up on making the world better, leaving the audience not knowing how things will turn out but hopeful that Sasuke might heal his emotional wounds one day.

So, yeah, I like Sasuke and his character, but I think the plot didn't utilize him to his full potential.

Woo. I need a breather. I'll talk about some other characters in a later post or edit.