Talk:Kekkei Mōra

4 to 6 Elements?
Considering Obito was able to perform Truth-Seeking Spheres which Hiruzen determined to only consist of Four Elements... And the Truth-Seeking Spheres being a Kekkei Mora... Isnt it possible that a Kekkei Mora is possible with only Four Elements? Especially since Obito's were also usable without even Yin-Yang Release, and Naruto's without Yin Release. This to me seems to suggest Kekkei Mora is possible with at least 4 elements, and further stabilizing with every subsequently acquired element and regaining more of its powers. Skarrj (talk) 05:27, September 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sarutobi didn't say "only four natures", but "at least". • Seelentau 愛 議 09:33, September 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Also only Kaguya's TSB was stated to consist of all natures, thus only hers should be considered Kekkei Mora, as there's no evidence every user's TSB are all natures--Elveonora (talk) 10:40, September 18, 2014 (UTC)

Naruto and others
This discussion is closed.

There's no evidence theirs use all natures. Kekkei Mora was ever only attributed to Kaguya. Black Zetsu described it as "Expansion Truth-Seeking Ball of Bloodline Encompassing" if Naruto, Obito and Madara's TSB had used Kekkei Mora, theirs would have been described as such too, or rather it would be redundant to describe Kaguya's as of Kekkei Mora if the others' were the same.--Elve Talk Page 15:33, October 11, 2014 (UTC)

The new databook that's coming out next month should finally clear this mess.(Kuroiraikou (talk) 15:39, October 11, 2014 (UTC))


 * Nope. Not doing this again Elvenora. Until proven otherwise nothing is changing. Considering this the only warning. You know I don't warn twice.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 15:44, October 11, 2014 (UTC)

Kekkei Mōra in template code
Could someone of sysops or admninistration tell me if it's possible to create a same line in infobox for Kekkei Mōra, like in case of Kekkei Genkai and Kekkei Tōta ? Has this idea been mentioned before ? 20:15, November 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's already enabled. You need to add it manually, though. ~SnapperTo 20:33, November 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think so my Friend. I tried to add line to Kaguya's infobox source and it never appeared :/ Madsig.png Zero.png 03:16, November 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * ??? ~SnapperTo 04:36, November 2, 2014 (UTC)

Misunderstanding
I don't understand. Why are we suddenly classifing many jutsus as kekkei Mora? Like Amenominaka for example? Did the 4th databook state that? I thought Kekkei Mora were jutsus composed of the five basic natures. Also, Isn't the 4th databook going to come tomorrow? Why do we have some references on it? Like Sasuke's and Kaguya's techniques names.--KILLERBEE479 (talk) 16:15, November 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * It comes from a preview. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:19, November 2, 2014 (UTC)

TSB
Is there a reason for deleting the TSB from the article? o.ô • Seelentau 愛 議 04:45, November 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, don't we list the Blaze Release nature (the genetic mutation) under the Kekkei Genkai article? We don't list Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi (the result/jutsu) in the KG article. Didn't you say the TSB is the result/jutsu? Rather the TSB has an unknown nature and an unknown genetic mutation? That unspecified nature should be in the KM article. •  WindStar7125   WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 04:54, November 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah yes, you're right. I keep forgetting that^^ • Seelentau 愛 議 04:55, November 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hopefully the databook gives us that unspecified nature. ^_^ I think Snapper2 speculated in a thread that it would be called "Truth Release" or something. XD • WindStar7125   WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 04:58, November 3, 2014 (UTC)

I still think those techniques should be mentioned in the article, one way or another. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:31, November 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Do what you want, then. :P • WindStar7125   WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 20:22, November 10, 2014 (UTC)

Shikotsumyaku??
According to the Fourth Databook, can we list it in Kekkei Mōra, not Kekkei Genkai?--Sulina (talk) 07:29, November 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * What does it say?--Elve Talk Page 18:26, November 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think according to FF-Suzaku, All-Killing Ash Bones is a KKM, not Shikotsumyaku. • WindStar7125   WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 18:35, November 11, 2014 (UTC)

so how is it?
Jin no Sho gives Kaguya only a Kekkei Mora label, but no Kekkei Genkai, am I right? But she has Byakugan, which is Kekkei Genkai, so is her Byakugan Kekkei Mora somehow? In that case, she does have Shikotsumyaku, but a Kekkei Mora version of it. But if we list her as Byakugan user then so should we as user of Shikotsumyaku. I know she is currently listed as a user of both Byakugan and Shikotsumyaku, but someone wanted to remove them with the reasoning that Jin no Sho doesn't list her or so--Elve Talk Page 21:25, November 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Agree i think there must be KKM versions of Bones and Byakugan for Kaguya. ./ Rage gtx (talk) 22:48, November 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * She is no user of the Shikotsumyaku. Her bone technique was described as being different and much stronger. Her Byakugan, on the other hand, was simply called Byakugan and there's nothing that indicates that it is a Kekkei Mora. • Seelentau 愛 議 03:00, November 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hagoromo is in the same position, is he not? He has a kekkei genkai (Rinnegan) but is only stated to have kekkei mora (unknown) in the databook. Truth-Seeking Ball not being a kekkei mora really complicates things.--BeyondRed (talk) 05:03, November 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily. Due to having Kaguya's bloodline (from being her son), and being shown in chapters 670 and 690 the ability to use a TSB without using tailed beast chakra (due to facing the original tailed beast in the Ten-Tails) and without being a jinchūriki (like Naruto, Obito and Madara), logically, the TSB is the KKM for Hagoromo. • WindStar7125   WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 05:06, November 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree, but the databook lists TSB as only ninjutsu (not even senjutsu, despite containing "sage chakra"). The databook also seems to count tailed beast advanced natures as kekkei genkai, so logically TSB would count as kekkei mora for Obito and Madara, wouldn't it?--BeyondRed (talk) 05:15, November 16, 2014 (UTC)

No, Obito and Madara weren't listed as KKM users. They don't have direct access to Kaguya's bloodline like Hagoromo does. And plus, the TSB is not related to a TB. In other words, it isn't a TB skill (which was a term made up here to differentiate "Ninjutsu" and "TB Ball"). • WindStar7125     05:31, November 16, 2014 (UTC)

So we remove her as a user of Shikotsumyaku? In that case, shouldn't we note her bone ability in kekkei mora article?--Elve Talk Page 09:18, November 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * We still have no idea what a Kekkei Mora is, though... • Seelentau 愛 議 13:44, November 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * I already removed her as a user and noted her bone ability in the KKM article hours ago before you brought up this topic. Keep up, Elve. :P • WindStar7125   WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 16:31, November 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Too busy being awesome to pay attention to a commoner :P--Elve Talk Page 17:00, November 16, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya' s ability
All Kaguya's ability are classified Kekkei Mora: Rinne-Sharingan, Byakugan, Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball. I think that we should also enter Kaguya's Shikotsumyaku. Sharingan91 (talk) 10:16, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * Kaguya does not have Shikotsumyaku.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 10:37, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * @Sharingan91: nel Quarto Databook, viene detto che la tecnica ossea di Kaguya non è Shikotsumyaku, ma qualcosa di più potente. (It's written in Italian, sorry folks)--JOA2010:43, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * I think that this is as for the byakugan! Kaguya's Byakugan is KM, while that of her descendants is KG. Kaguya's Shikotsumyaku is KM, while that of her descendants is KG. Sharingan91 (talk) 10:48, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * Forse, ma l'abilità di Kaguya non è mai stata chiamata Shikotsumyaku. (This is the last time I write in Italian, sorry =P)--JOA2010:53, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * @JOA: Anche se l'abilità di Kaguya non viene chiamata Shikotsumyaku, sempre manipolazione ossea è! Solo che quella di Kaguya è molto più forte, ha la capacità di polverizzare i bersagli colpiti(KM), mentre quella usata da kimimaro è un'abilità diluita(KG). Come per il Byakugan abbiamo quello di Kaguya che è molto più forte(KM) mentre quello dei sui discendenti è un potere diluito(KG)Sharingan91 (talk) 11:08, February 18, 2015 (UTC)

Please write in English when you're discussing on the wiki's talk pages. Otherwise, other users are left out and that's not the purpose of a talk page. :) • Seelentau 愛 議 12:37, February 18, 2015 (UTC)

I call bs on the whole: "Kaguya doesn't have Shikotsumyaku" thing. I want to see it black on white where it's stated rather than just "x says y said z is true" Also since the book classifies her Byakugan as Kekkei Mora, it isn't unreasonable that she simply has Kekkei Mora version of Shikotsumyaku.--Elve Talk Page 13:00, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * The book doesn't "classify" her Byakugan as a KKM. You guys just decided that it does. That's a different thing. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:13, February 18, 2015 (UTC)


 * Databook "jin no Sho pag.25" I read a translation, it speaks of the inheritance left by Kaguya, her skills which were forwarded to the clan descendants.Sharingan91 (talk) 14:11, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * I know. But that doesn't mean that the original ability is a KKM. • Seelentau 愛 議 14:36, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * Profile lists her as kekkei mora user, not kekkei genkai and her techniques which are used with the Byakugan are also kekkei mora, so Kishi decided so, not "you guys"--Elve Talk Page 15:03, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * None of her techniques require the usage of Byakugan. It's not like she cannot use her hair without the byakugan.--Omojuze (talk) 15:08, February 18, 2015 (UTC)

@Omojuze "Rabbit Hair Needle" is KM because Kaguya using her Byakugan, she targets the vital points of her enemy. "Eighty Gods Vacuum Attack"is KM because Kaguya using her Byakugan. Substantially all of its abilities are KM. They are diluted to her descendants -Byakugan KM -> Byakugan KG: -Sharingan KM(rinne sharingan) -> Sharingan KG -Shikotsumyaku KM -> Shikotsumyaku KG -Truth-Seeking Ball KM ->Truth-Seeking Ball. Sharingan91 (talk) 15:16, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * @Omo, none of the gentle fist techniques "require" the Byakugan either, yet they are listed as kekkei genkai because they are used in conjunction with the Byakugan.--Elve Talk Page 16:12, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * Elve, the thing is that you're the guys who put 1 and 1 together, Kishi just gave you the 1 and the 1. The Byakugan was never directly called KKM. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:15, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * Neither was Jiton ever directly stated to be Futon+Doton.--Elve Talk Page 16:25, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * All of her techniques are classified as Kekkei Mora because they were used by her. Byakugan and Shikotsumyaku are Kekkei Genkai, but when used by Kaguya they became Kekkei Mora. --Salamancc (talk) 16:50, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * It wasn't, but in that case, there's no other possibility. Here we have the possibility that you're wrong. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:59, February 18, 2015 (UTC)

I don't see that possibility, only that the databook may be wrong and your own words were that it's not our job to determine what's right or wrong but to document shit as stated.--Elve Talk Page 17:02, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * I think All Killing Ash Bones is Kekkei Mora and Shikotsumyaku isn't because we know it is Kekkei Genkai and inherited by clan a diluted version may be, so she doesn't have Shikotsumyaku and all her feats are Kekkei Mora, we can't list Shikotsumyaku and All Killing Ash Bones together in infobox because they are same thing but differ in power level or whatever reason, it will be like Listing her Byakugan as (KM) and (KG) together in infobox, so one is enough.--Mecha Naruto (talk) 17:22, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * Byakugan is a kekkei genkai. End of story. Saying that it is a Kekkei Mora, although reasonable, would be false with the information that we have from the manga. And manga > databook.--Omojuze (talk) 17:26, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * It's kekkei mora for Kaguya for whatever reason, there's nothing unreasonable about that, it's a fact. Manga > databook it may be when it comes to deciding which is right about a thing when there's a conflict, but nothing in the manga says that "Oh, Kaguya's Byakugan is totally not a Kekkei Mora by the way"
 * @Mecha, All Killing Ash Bones is a technique not the name of her bone ability, which I think is simply kekkei mora version of Shikotsumyaku and I'm yet to see something that says otherwise.--Elve Talk Page 17:49, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * There's nothing that says "Kaguya's Byakugan is a Kekkei Mora" either. We have the manga that calls the Byakugan a Kekkei Genkai and the databook which - even with the revealing of Kekkei Mora - still doesn't call her Byakugan a Kekkei Mora. And we have you (and some others) who say "no, that's wrong and my assumption is correct". • Seelentau 愛 議 18:04, February 18, 2015 (UTC)

Kishimoto doesn't have to take a plane to Germany and perform a lap dance on you, or does he? So you learn that something doesn't have to be whispered into your ear for it to be true. Kaguya is a Kekkei Mora user - fact. No Kekkei Genkai symbol - fact. Has the Byakugan - fact. Her techniques are also labeled Kekkei Mora and not one Kekkei Genkai - fact. I think we are done arguing.--Elve Talk Page 19:34, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * At this point, with the amount of mistakes the databook has made with the character information (natures, other listings like summoning and such.), taking it into account, instead of the information we already know, would be stupid, and not only we shouldn't, but we won't do that. A notice in the trivia is the most we can do.--Omojuze (talk) 19:42, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * If All Killing Ash Bones is really just a name given to Shikotsumyaku then I'm inclined to agree with Elveonora and it is known fact that Shikotsumyaku came from her so there is nothing wrong with listing Shikotsumyaku as Kekkei Mora in Kaguya's infobox, all of her techniques are Kekkei Mora. And leave Byakugan out of question because it is just used in conjunction with techniques, it's not casting one unlike her Rinne Sharingan. We are still not sure whether Kaguya's Byakugan is Kekkei Genkai or not, and so Byakugan should be removed from this article for now because we don't have correct information saying it is a Kekkei Mora, it was stated that all of her abilities/techniques are KKM not her body, the problem with Byakugan is- we don't know where it was stated that her Byakugan is KKM.--Mecha Naruto (talk) 20:00, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * We aren't paid to determine what is and isn't correct. Only when the mistake is clearly obvious should it be labeled as a mistake. Kaguya is a Kekkei Mora user (stated by both manga and the databook) and all her techniques are Kekkei Mora even those used in conjunction with her Byakugan (and don't start again) so your theory, that her non-Rinne Sharingan techniques being listed as Kekkei Mora are errors, is nothing short of paranoid at best. @Mecha, All Killing Ash Bones is name of a technique her bone ability uses, not name of the bone ability itself. And the fact that techniques labeled as kekkei mora, used in conjunction with her Byakugan are so rather than kekkei genkai, pretty much says that her Byakugan is kekkei mora. + no kekkei genkai label in the databook. You guys making this into "I refuse the truth, must be an error to make myself feel better about life" is in fact not paranoid, I take my words back, it's the worst conspiracy theory around.--Elve Talk Page 20:08, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * Elve, your facts are all facts indeed, but there's no "the Byakugan is a KKM - fact". The absence of the Kekkei Genkai symbol is no proof for her Byakugan to be a Kekkei Mora. Otherwise, the absence of the Kuchiyose symbol in Danzo's article would be proof that he's no Kuchiyose user. Now you might say "but the manga showed that he can use Kuchiyose" and that's true. But the manga also showed that the Byakugan is a Kekkei Genkai. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:09, February 18, 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Elveonora. Sharingan91 (talk) 20:24, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * Good to know that I'm not the only one agreeing with myself, thank you. @Seel, indeed, but you must consider that her techniques also which use the Byakugan are labeled Kekkei Mora. So while it's completely reasonable to insist that Kishimoto might have omitted the Kekkei Genkai symbol in her profile, it's unlikely that he would do the same mistake with her techniques as well. There's a thing such as probability and such scenario is unlikely.--Elve Talk Page 20:41, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * I just finished my translation for the Rabbit Hair Needle technique and going from that, it doesn't seem necessary to use the Byakugan. Only if Kaguya wants to seal the movements of her opponent she needs the Byakugan to see the Tenketsu. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:47, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * @Seelentau, The ability to control the hair does not fall within the "Kekkei" but that's jutsu, in this case is a jutsu, that it is used together with the byakugan. Kaguya's Kekkei Mora are: Byakugan, Sharingan, Shikotsumyaku, Gudodama Sharingan91 (talk) 21:01, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * You don't need to have the Byakugan's vision of chakra circulatory system and tenketsu in order to use the Gentle Fist, either, yet it's kekkei genkai because the Byakugan is perhaps not mandatory but fundamental to its usage. Same for Lightning Transmission. Sharingan isn't mandatory in order to change chakra's nature to Lightning and to make Shadow Clones, but it's fundamental for its proper usage, due to the Raikiri's tunnel vision nonsense thingy.--Elve Talk Page 21:04, February 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * The text for Kakashi's jutsu doesn't mention the Sharingan at all, I have no clue why it's labeled as a Kekkei Genkai. I mean, I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think we should take matters in our own hands. The manga didn't label her Byakugan as a KKM, the databook didn't do so either, so why should we? Just because some of us believe it to be correct? Na. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:07, February 18, 2015 (UTC)

Unless I'm mistaken, it's a precedent that the databooks list techniques used in conjunction with doujutsu as kekkei. Kaguya's techniques and Kakashi's Lightning Transmission simply follow this years old precedent. From her Byakugan-enhanced techniques being listed as kekkei mora and no kekkei genkai label in profile can be deduced that her Byakugan is kekkei mora. That's not "taking matters into our own hands" that's listing down facts.--Elve Talk Page 21:12, February 18, 2015 (UTC)

Has someone brought up the possibility that kekkei genkai and kekkei mora are not mutually exclusive? Especially since we still have no bloody clue what a kekkei mora actually is?--TheUltimate3 (talk) 21:36, February 18, 2015 (UTC)


 * -Amenominaka, God: Nativity of a World of Trees, Infinite Tsukuyomi, Yomotsu Hirasaka are classified as Kekkei Mora because they use the power of Rinne-sharingan (Sharingan KM). -Eighty Gods Vacuum Attack, Rabbit Hair Needle are classified as Kekkei Mora because they use the power of "Byakugan KM". -All-Killing Ash Bones is classified as Kekkei Mora because it use the power of "Shikotsumyaku KM". -Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball is classified as Kekkei Mora because it use the power of "Gudōdama KM". Sharingan91 (talk) 09:18, February 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * @Ulti, so Kekkei Tota is also inclusive of Kekkei Genkai? Nah. Also I bet both of my testicles that what Kekkei Mora is, IS actually stated in Jin no Sho and folks simply haven't translated that part. For example, Madara's profile isn't fully translated yet, the answer may be in there. @Sharingan, there's no TSB KM. TSB isn't listed as Kekkei Mora and Obito and Naruto aren't Kekkei Mora users either despite having used them. Whatever makes Kaguya's ETSB KKM the others don't have.--Elve Talk Page 09:27, February 19, 2015 (UTC)


 * @Elveonora, TSB isn't: Kekkei Genkai, Kekkei Tota, Kekkei Mora! but It is the Kekkei intermediate between KT and KM! ETSB is KM!Sharingan91 (talk) 09:33, February 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * That's just your speculation supported with no evidence though.--Elve Talk Page 09:36, February 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * How exactly are we going on what, 3 or 4 months and a major section hasn't been translated? Instead of this speculatory back and forth nonsense, we either get someone to translate or find the obscure text someone did and use that. Because right now, everybody is grasping at straws except for the very minute information we do actually have about Kekkei Mora, which is Kaguya had it.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 11:35, February 19, 2015 (UTC)

I mean Thrall's Balls Seelentau has a physical copy of the databook and yet has stated nothing of what kekkei mora actually is. Why would Madara's section say so?--TheUltimate3 (talk) 11:36, February 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * Madara had the Rinne Sharingan which is a Kekkei Mora so it may be mentioned somewhere in his section what kekkei mora is.--Elve Talk Page 12:33, February 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * And that explains why Seelentau would kindly ignore such a major character section...? Leading this entire discussion to be one long speculatory circle jerk when all we do know about kekkei mora is that Kaguya has it and it's special.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 12:38, February 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * Because his Japanese isn't good enough to translate huge chunks of text. He focused only on technique names and profiles of minor characters I believe.--Elve Talk Page 12:46, February 19, 2015 (UTC)

There is a possibility that her Byakugan is KKM but Seel says it is not stated anywhere so we shouldn't have added this but I guess it's okay I'm not sure, I'd rather think her Byakugan as KKG because it is independent to the Taijutsu techniques she is performing, I mean she can do Eighty Gods Vacuum Attack with her eyes closed and still her techniques can be Kekkei Mora unless her Byakugan is powering her techniques, and so saying it is a KKM Byakugan as there is no KKG techniques for her is wrong, I'm not saying her non Rinne Sharingan techniques are not KKM. ETSB is KKM and its more like Kekkei Tota because she is combining all 5 elemental natures+YY, anyway we should mention Shikotsumyaku as Kekkei Mora in infobox and also in this article because the ability is passed down and she has it.--Mecha Naruto (talk) 13:08, February 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * A blind Hyuga can still do Eight Trigrams Palms Revolving Heaven yet the technique is listed as kekkei genkai because of the Byakugan.--Elve Talk Page 13:11, February 19, 2015 (UTC)

"Kekkei genkai (血継限界; Literally meaning "a technique limited to inheritance by blood"...)". Kaguya's powers weren't inherited by blood. But Hagoromo's Rinnegan is a Kekkei Moura, not KG and he has Kaguya's blood... but she doesn't have his Rinnegan (purple), she has Rinne Sharingan. In short words, I think KM is the first-time a power - that can passed down by blood later - is manifested. By this, I guess Sharingan is KM for Indra, the same way Rinnegan is KM for Hagoromo (and by this, if we take the movie, Tenseigan would be KM for Hamura and KG for Toneri...).Narsha (talk) 01:45, February 20, 2015 (UTC)