Talk:Chakra Enhanced Strength/Archive 2

Naruto?
When has Naruto used this? I don't recall.--Reliops (talk) 17:30, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * He hasn't, someone assumed for some reason that just because he had chakra around his hand, he must have been using this technique--Elveonora (talk) 17:43, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * He used it when he punched Madara's TSB staff. He broke the Shinju behind him. It even says it in the chapter article. Or... it did Riptide240 (talk) 17:47, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then the chapter article is wrong, there's no evidence it was chakra enhanced strength. This is an application of medical ninjutsu, Naruto doesn't know any--Elveonora (talk) 17:48, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Read chapter 673 in color. its very clear. Also, its basic medical ninjutsu to apply chakra to enhance strength, which Naruto is very capable of with the Sage's chakra, cause he did Riptide240 (talk) 17:51, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * The coloration you refer to is fanmade. Also Naruto doesn't have any experience with or knowledge of medical ninjutsu. What he does isn't medical ninjutsu, but Jesus stuff--Elveonora (talk) 17:52, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * While that may be true (lol) im referring to color kage.Isn't that official? Riptide240 (talk) 17:53, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * They are about as official as you or me--Elveonora (talk) 17:54, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * So we're not official? lol and where did we get our colored pic of sasuke's rinnegan from? Riptide240 (talk) 17:55, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

And even so, in the regular manga, you still see chakra around his hand and he breaks the Shinju Riptide240 (talk) 17:57, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

From Weekly Shonen Jump magazine cover/Volume cover. And just because he had chakra around his hand doesn't mean it was chakra enhanced strength.--Elveonora (talk) 18:06, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Ugh.... so maybe Naruto is a user of this after all? But when did he learn it? I mean, there's no confirmation, but him in base mode punched BZ with superhuman strength, while having chakra around his own hand--Elveonora (talk) 19:18, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * What is "base mode"? Naruto has the Sage's power there. To my knowledge, that doesn't show any particular outward manifestation. Chakra enhanced strength is something that Tsunade uses which requires minute chakra control. Not everything we see, needs to be labelled.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 19:52, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Look at his eyes, he isn't using six paths senjutsu while punching him--Elveonora (talk) 21:13, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Users
Why are Hashirama, Ino & Naruto listed as users? Hashirama I can believe on the grounds of his relation to Tsunade and the overall resemblance to her fighting style in the Storm series (especially the final punch in his UJ), but nothing suggests the other two are using this. 02:31,10/20/2014 02:31, October 20, 2014 (UTC)

Naruto 2
Even though I was originally in the opposition, he indeed did use something resembling this technique to break Madara's TSB rod and punch Black Zetsu to the moon.--Elve Talk Page 17:49, February 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * Rod - Tailed Beast/Sage of Six Paths enhanced abilities, Black Zetsu - I don't recall his hand being covered with chakra in any way. If the punch was simple, but showed high capabilities in strength, It's probably 'cause of Naruto's taijutsu skill, which massively improved or could've just been used for effect.--Omojuze (talk) 17:57, February 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * Taijutsu skill doesn't improve your physical strength, it refers to hand to hand combat mastery. Taijutsu and Strength are even two separate stats. Someone may have 5/5 in Taijutsu and 2/5 in Strength for example, or the other way around. Anyway, it's chapters 673 and 690--Elve Talk Page 20:00, February 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * I think I originally added him as a user, under game only usage from Ultimate Ninja Storm 3 when he broke Tobi's mask. --OmegaRasengan (talk) 02:28, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Naruto used this to punch Toneri in The Last movie, didn't he?--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 05:11, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * People who have seen the movie say he did.--Elve Talk Page 13:11, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

Bump.--Elve Talk Page 08:42, February 7, 2015 (UTC)


 * He really used this in The Last movie, he focuses his chakra cloak completely into his left hand and blocks Toneri's attack and he ran towards him, by holding the scrap of scarf he focusses the chakra onto his right hand then punches Toneri. Breaking the rod/ punching black Zetsu could be Sage mode imo because we didn't see any chakra covering his hand.--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 08:59, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * In the last, it's more like partial nine-tails chakra mode than actual chakra enhanced strength. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 09:08, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Tis true. One of Naruto's forearms just glows yellow, so it is more like a partial Nine-Tails Chakra Mode. -- WindStar7125 (talk | contribs) 09:13, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * The punch was a powerful enough to pin Toneri against the wall, and Naruto's hand was covered with chakra basically he accumulated the chakra into his fist so it might be chakra enhanced Strength.--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 09:19, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Or Kurama's chakra. -- WindStar7125 (talk | contribs) 09:22, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * What Naruto did matches the description of the technique and he used his/Kurama's chakra for Chakra Enhanced Strength.--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 09:29, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

Well, I haven't seen the movie. When does it take place?--Elve Talk Page 09:48, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * When Naruto fights Toneri on the moon. -- WindStar7125 (talk | contribs) 09:51, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, simply chakra around hand and chakra mode cloak look different--Elve Talk Page 10:01, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Exactly. -- WindStar7125 (talk | contribs) 19:24, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

Revival?
How is what Naruto did on the moon chakra enhanced strength in the sense that the article explains it? His "Hashirama/Zetsu hand" glowed orange with Kurama chakra and he punched Tonrei. This article outlines the use of chakra control for precise and devastating effects. He also stuffed his hand in Hinata's chest like he did it ever other day, does that mean he can use Nongendō too? Naruto should not be listed as a user of this technique. At best he should get mentioned in the trivia.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 01:10, July 5, 2015 (UTC)


 * On chapter 673, pg3, when he punched Madara looks like Naruto did this technique.--Kuroiraikou (talk) 06:53, July 5, 2015 (UTC)


 * Naruto can focus his chakra cloak not only on his right hand but also left hand. I don't think Naruto did Ningendou that is completely another technique, also that ch 673 healing technique was not similar to it either, he just removed the green orb that was controlling Hinata, It looked similar to Obito absorbing Madara's chakra and removing chunks of Tailed Beasts.--Mecha Naruto (talk) 07:15, July 5, 2015 (UTC)

Name
I think the name of this technique can be Adamantine Fist because in Naruto: Ultimate Ninja 3, Naruto Shippūden: Ultimate Ninja 4 and Naruto Shippūden: Ultimate Ninja 5 the Hashirama's combos are similar with this technique. In fact, in Naruto Shippūden: Ultimate Ninja Storm 4, Hashirama uses this technique by Wood Release: Wood Human Technique, calling on his movelist as "Wood Style: Adamantine Fist". Anyway I think it would be appropriate to move this page to "Adamantine Fist". → Rafael_U._H._S._U._Symbol.svg Rafael U.  Uchiha_Symbol.svg H.  Hyūga_Symbol.svg  S.  Senju_Symbol.svg U.  Uzushiogakure_Symbol.svg  23:16, July 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * Unless I'm mistaken, this refers to strenght made with all parts of the body through this method. And at least the punch got a name in either Storm 3 or Revolution, Golden Great Fist, game translation Solid Gold Fist. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:44, July 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * Good god, that's a long signature. And it was indeed Storm 3, called "Solid Gold Fist." 03:48, July 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * Then the better is call as "Solid Gold Fist"? → Rafael_U._H._S._U._Symbol.svg Rafael U.  Uchiha_Symbol.svg H.  Hyūga_Symbol.svg  S.  Senju_Symbol.svg U.  Uzushiogakure_Symbol.svg  00:30, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Against the name change, Hashirama isn't even a official user of this technique only shown in the games.--Kuroiraikou (talk) 01:17, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't know if you know portuguese, but here we have made a discussion about this and we got a consensus. What you think? → Rafael_U._H._S._U._Symbol.svg Rafael U.  Uchiha_Symbol.svg H.  Hyūga_Symbol.svg  S.  Senju_Symbol.svg U.  Uzushiogakure_Symbol.svg  12:50, July 25, 2015 (UTC)


 * No i don't, but that's another wiki not this one.--Kuroiraikou (talk) 13:44, July 25, 2015 (UTC)


 * It's just for more opinions... → Rafael_U._H._S._U._Symbol.svg Rafael <font face="Lucida Handwriting" size="4" color="Firebrick">U.  Uchiha_Symbol.svg <font face="Lucida Handwriting" size="4" color="Firebrick">H.  Hyūga_Symbol.svg  <font face="Lucida Handwriting" size="4" color="Firebrick">S.  Senju_Symbol.svg <font face="Lucida Handwriting" size="4" color="Firebrick">U.  Uzushiogakure_Symbol.svg  17:00, July 26, 2015 (UTC)

Indra
I know he was added on account of the latest episode, but was what he did really this? I mean, I know it was just sparring, but there were really no signs of enhanced strength on his attack. The way his attack was open-handed, much like the attack of the guy sparring with Asura was, and the way Asura and the guy sparring with Indra reacted, it seemed to much much more like a proto-Gentle Fist style than CES, or a non-enlarged Super Open Hand Slap. Thoughts? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:06, June 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * If Indra gets added then so should Hagoromo ._0 --Elve Talk Page 20:11, June 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * Except Hagoromo's strength showed no signs of being chakra-enhanced. His was more like Tsunade's natural, already monstrous strength. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:16, June 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * All I know is that Indra struck his opponent during a sparing match with a chakra-infused fist.--Steveo920 (talk) 20:26, June 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * Not a fist. An open-handed attack. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:31, June 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * I think it should at least be mentioned in trivia of the Gentle Fist page as a clear similarity of this battlestyle and it's possible predecessor. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 20:57, June 16, 2016 (UTC)

Maybe we should distinguish between what Sakura and Tsunade do and what these various other characters do. Their version is stated to be an application of the principles behind medical ninjutsu and I can't recall their chakra ever becoming visible when they use it, whereas characters like Naruto and such just pump a visibly large amount of chakra into their fist and hit something. It isn't really the same. Also, wouldn't a common act like channelling chakra into your feet to jump higher be about the same as channelling it into your hand to punch harder?--BeyondRed (talk) 21:31, June 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * Image shows Tsunade doing it, with visible chakra. I get what you mean about it being an application of medical ninjutsu chakra control, but how else to explain what other characters do? Indra's case aside, they all look the same and produce similar results. From what Kakashi explained in the beginning of part two he made Naruto and Sakura retake the bell test, CSE is a product of both the quantity of chakra gathered, and how the chakra is released, the timing. It has a quantitative and a qualitative aspect. I'd say the medical ninjutsu contributes to this skill because it hones mostly the qualitative aspect, whereas say Naruto, ended up doing this by simply focusing on the quantitative aspect. It's like Naruto's early chakra control issues and shadow clones. He lacked the finesse (quality) of the thing, but because he could be wasteful with his chakra, dumping a lot of it (quantity) ended up making it work. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:48, June 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah, quality vs quantity makes sense. Even if they share an article, we should probably still differentiate between users in the description. Right now the article only talks about Tsunade's method of enhancing her strength, which would imply that all the listed users are trained medical ninja which obviously isn't the case. And Naruto seems to have a variation of his own, since his enhanced strength comes from focusing his chakra cloak into his arm.--BeyondRed (talk) 01:13, June 17, 2016 (UTC)
 * I haven't checked videos in a while, but if what Naruto does in the canon movies matches a moveset video from Storm 4, his "focus tailed beast chakra cloak into fist" variation could have a name. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:01, June 17, 2016 (UTC)
 * A weird thing about Naruto in Storm 4 is that his The Last version does the chakra-cloak-into-fist thing from the movie, but the Hokage version uses regular blue chakra instead. Not sure why they made that change or if it has any precedent in the Boruto movie (haven't seen it yet), but it could complicate things a little.--BeyondRed (talk) 02:31, June 17, 2016 (UTC)

Bumping. So, should we take Indra off this? His attack was clearly chakra-enhanced, but there was nothing exceptional about strength in it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:59, June 30, 2016 (UTC)
 * Chakra enhanced yes, Strength no. Remove it imo. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 17:04, June 30, 2016 (UTC)

Users
If this technique really requires an application of medical ninjutsu, why are we listing people who are clearly not Medical-nin (eg. Sajin, Naruto, Itachi, etc.)?--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 14:09, July 2, 2017 (UTC)
 * Because for whatever reason, we've got into the habit of generalising articles; if someone uses a technique that looks similar then they're listed as users e.g. Negative emotion sensing. I'm all for removing every one else that's only used chakra-aided enhanced strength.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:23, July 2, 2017 (UTC)
 * @Omo im under the impression using medical ninjutsu doesn't make you a Medical-nin, case in point Hinata using Mystical Palm Technique. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 14:32, July 2, 2017 (UTC)
 * @Cerez: Eh, yeah. I'd also would like to have some people removed.
 * @Saru: That's not why we don't list Hinata (and Karin) as such. It was decided that if the use of Medical Ninjutsu is non-canon, we ain't gonna list a canon character as a Medical-Nin. At least I vaguely remember having a conversation like that, lemme see if I can find it.--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 14:41, July 2, 2017 (UTC)
 * EDIT:This is what I could find in such short notice. To sum it up quickly, basically Elve protested listing Hinata as a Medic because "Chikara arc. is a filler arc that was worked on by different animators, and her abilities will not be expanded upon, so let's not list it", and nobody really complained...--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 14:53, July 2, 2017 (UTC)
 * Fair enough Omo. But i would like to point out that we shouldn't judge a book by its cover. While Sajin and Itachi don't appear to be medical nin's, the very same can be said about Madara, who performed an eye transplant, a feat which is only known to be accomplished by using medical ninjutusu.--Sarutobii2 (talk) 15:36, July 2, 2017 (UTC)
 * And Neji used what looked a lot like Chakra Scalpel against Kidōmaru, yet we don't assume that he's a Medical-nin all of the sudden.
 * Though i do notice that we don't list Hashirama as a Medical-Nin... Would be nice to hear thoughts from more people to reach a decision, though :)--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 15:48, July 2, 2017 (UTC)
 * Pretty sure that being listed as medical-nin requires one to use medical ninjutsu to heal others. Self-healing alone doesn't count, otherwise Land of Waves arc Naruto would count over healing himself with Kurama's chakra. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:22, July 2, 2017 (UTC)

So to refresh my memory, this discussion is about removing non Medical-nin from the list of users of this technique because said technique utilises a form of Medical Ninjutsu? I would agree with that if being a Medical-nin is a prerequisite in order to perform medical ninjutsu but it isn't, just like being a shinobi isn't a prerequisite to performing ninjutsu. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 12:58, July 15, 2017 (UTC)
 * Not a form of medical ninjutsu since it itself is not medical ninjutsu but it borrows on the application of medical ninjutsu i.e. pinpoint chakra control and percision release etc. we're basically trying to determine whether or not we keep this article as intended or generalise it by adding every character that has ever used chakra to augment their strength. I'm in favor of the former for what it counts. As for persons being listed as medical nin, it comes down to the same thing: is everyone that uses healing mystical palm a medic or is medical nin a profession? There are a lot of people that overlap. For example- if Sakura had gotten to Asuma instead of Ino, would he still be alive? (plot excluded of course). There are some shinobi that learn to use med ninjutsu for support purposes on the field but they're not exactly medics. As for Karin and Hinata- tbh we were all just fed up of the anime fodding things up at that point in time. Karin has never healed anyone outside of being bitten in canon and Hinata was shown healing persons in an arc that made very little sense. --Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 13:19, July 15, 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't mind keeping the other users with the appropriate tags. Gathering and releasing chakra is something that most shinobi do in one way or another, like water walking. CES seems to work basically on the same basis as Kakashi did when he explained chakra control. Sakura wasn't the most powerful, but her precise chakra control lead her to get more bang for her buck. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:29, July 15, 2017 (UTC)
 * a When you say "appropriate tags" what did you have in mind? Also would splitting the articles help? Limiting what Sakura and Tsunade do as "monstrous strength" or something that we can dedicate to them? The issue is what they do is called an application of medical ninjutsu and pinpoint chakra control. It's not exactly made to seem like a general skill.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 23:44, July 29, 2017 (UTC)
 * It's an application of medical ninjutsu because it requires excellent chakra control and seeing as those that use it tend be medical-nin, but as seen, other non-medical-nin can do the same thing. There is no differentiation of the jutsu. --Rai 水 (talk) 23:59, July 29, 2017 (UTC)
 * @Rai Or, you know, the logical thing that could be said is that it just looks similar is all...--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 00:02, July 30, 2017 (UTC)
 * I mean, we were told that Sakura can only achieve this strength by applying medical ninjutsu, and I don't know 'bout you but I'm pretty sure that someone like Naruto definitely did not have training in Medical Ninjutsu.--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 00:04, July 30, 2017 (UTC)

Well last I checked, Naruto was capable of creating the Rasenshuriken on his own, able to focus his chakra to fist to collide with Toneri's beam, so if that doesn't take refined chakra control, I don't what does. --Rai 水 (talk) 00:06, July 30, 2017 (UTC)
 * But since when is Chakra Control == Medical Ninjutsu? O.o Is climbing up a tree or walking on water Medical Ninjutsu now?--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 00:08, July 30, 2017 (UTC)
 * Well you do need fine chakra control to perform medical ninjutsu or am I mistaken. Also, this is not medical ninjutsu. This associated due to Sakura and Tsunade using their medical training to perform it. Also, Sakura doesn't use medical ninjutsu, so why is she listed then. Oh wait because she can perform the Cherry Blossom Impact, showing that you don't need medical ninjutsu training to use it as far as we are concerned. --Rai 水 (talk) 00:13, July 30, 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, but what does that have to do with anything? It requires an application of medical ninjutsu, meaning that prior knowledge and practice in the area is required.
 * "Sakura doesn't use Medical Ninjutsu". What?--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 00:18, July 30, 2017 (UTC)
 * I meant Sarada, clearly. Unless you want to remove her. Otherwise, it goes against what you are trying to insert, even if she is the daughter of Sakura. --Rai 水 (talk) 04:35, July 30, 2017 (UTC)

With the most recent revision (making the technique article more generalised) is everyone okay with readding the other users? Now we have it as something everyone can do, but Tsunade and company (as we've seen) can do it 'better'? --Cerez 365  (talk) 04:13, July 31, 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm game. --Rai 水 (talk) 04:17, July 31, 2017 (UTC)


 * @Rai (regarding the Sarada question): Knowing how to apply medical ninjutsu doesn't make you a Medical-Nin, though. At least from what I've been told recently. And it's not out of the realm of likelihoods that Sakura just filled Sarada in regarding the essentials. All other previously added users would force us to assume that they have knowledge in Medical Ninjutsu, and Naruto, at the very least, doesn't have that knowledge.--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 07:59, July 31, 2017 (UTC)
 * I never said it did. But, what bugs me is that all of sudden this becomes an issue. Just because Sakura and Tsunade's associated with medical ninjutsu due to its principle of storing and releasing chakra with pinpoint timing. --Rai 水 (talk) 08:08, July 31, 2017 (UTC)
 * Maybe we should get rid of the article altogether. It seems to be doing my bad than good as others who while may not have been confirmed to have medical-nin's refine chakra control, has used chakra to enhance their strength as those still listed, just on a smaller scale. --Rai 水 (talk) 09:22, July 31, 2017 (UTC)
 * Or, you know, we could do the sane thing and rewrite this article a bit to fit the quo of the likes of Body Flicker Jutsu.
 * The problem is is that Tsunade herself attributed this to her prowess in Medical Ninjutsu. Had she not done that, then yeah, but she did, so...--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 09:33, July 31, 2017 (UTC)
 * What do you mean to "fit the quo of the likes of the Body Flicker Jutsu"? --Rai 水 (talk) 09:37, July 31, 2017 (UTC)

Imply that it's a generic skill and only list people whose abilities heavily revolve around, or who are known for using this technique. Body Flicker, Unsealing Jutsu, etc. I'm sure you're catching on :) Problem is, it's very unlikely for it to be a generic skill, so...--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 09:40, July 31, 2017 (UTC)
 * I would agree with that, but it's not a general skill as not many users even employ it, only a select few. There are two versions, one that increases your strength beyond normal, and another that increases your strength to monstrous levels, this needing chakra control on par with medical-nin. Other than that, there is differentiate really. The technique's power is dependent on the user I suppose. --Rai 水 (talk) 09:47, July 31, 2017 (UTC)