Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-30426414-20170602005649/@comment-32177363-20170602223443

Lorenzo VonMT wrote: TheNarutoAnalytic wrote: Battle experience & intelligence: Kakashi wins. Kakashi has amassed years of battle experience, whereas Itachi probably no longer trained as intensely after defecting. In the few battles that we've seen Itachi in after defecting, he mainly relied on his genjutsu & MS skills to easily beat ninja's who were obviously way below his level (like season 1 Kakashi).

I find it hard to believe that someone like Itachi can be at the level he is while remainning static in terms of training for so many years. Itachi was a pacifist but that doesn't mean he despised becoming stronger, he just didn't like fighting. If you read the Itachi novels, his goal was to become the strongest ninja in order to use the power he gained to end all conflict. So considering he was still improving his skills before he left the village, theres no reason to believe he still he stopped training after he left since theres nothing hinting to that.

TheNarutoAnalytic wrote: Obviously Itachi wasn't getting that much stronger in the realm of battle experience, as he never really had many opportunities to; he was just an Akastuki member following orders. And let's not forget that Itachi as a character cared little for raw power, and treasured wisdom.

Yes, Kakashi has more battle experience but its negligible considering the difference between their experiences in battle is so small. In the part 1 fight, Kakashi's superior battle experience didn't give him an edge against Itachi. Although it helped him discern Itachi's plans, the benefit isn't large enough to consider it an advantage. Theres also nothing indicating Kakashi was more intelligent than Itachi, if anything they're equal.

Yes, in part 1 Kakashi's battle experience did not help him because in part 1 Kakashi was not nearly as smart. As I stated towards the end, War Arc Kakashi is a lot smarter & more experienced than the season 1 Kakashi whom Itachi beat. And considering the feats which Kakashi has pulled in being able to hold his ground against opponents far stronger than him and adapting to different circumstances while Itachi has been shown to struggle anytime he runs up against an opponent who knows how to get around his ninjutsu and mind tricks, I believe there is good reason to make an inference that Kakashi's experience and smartness surpasses Itachi's pure brain skills. There is no evidence suggesting that Itachi continued to train after defecting. This does not mean that Itachi did not train at all (he definitely fought Kisamé on occasions to train). I am simply saying Itachi did not train nearly as much due to being an Akastuki member who was mainly assigned missions to defeat opponents way below their level or to capture jinchuuriki. This is a grey area for arguing, I will simply say that judging by Itachi's performance against Sasuke he does not have a vast array of jutsu's indicating that he continued to train rigorously.

TheNarutoAnalytic wrote: Itachi is a 5 in the intelligence book, and as a child he was a prodigy who knew how to throw shunai's and shurikens to make them hit impossible targets at once. He's also calm and analytical when fighting. Clearly Itachi has a lot of brain skills. However, when facing Might Guy in season 1, Itachi had trouble (without Guy even opening his gates), which shows that Itachi isn't great against people who know how to get around his genjutsu and cunning mind tricks.

Itachi didn't have a problem with Guy, he simply warned Kisame not to underestimate him. Remember, Itachi's plan wasn't to annihilate everyone, thats why he ended the fight quicly by using tsukuyomi. Guy's arrival was just going to add more commotion and buy enough time for even more reinforments to arrive which was the last thing Itachi wanted. Genjutsu isn't Itachi's only weapon, his use of taijutsu, ninjutsu and the sharingan make him a formidable enemy. He may not have a large arsenal but its the level at which he uses the tools he has that make him so strong.

I agree that Guy did not necessarily give Itachi a problem; however, I do find it odd that as soon as Guy showed up, Itachi told Kisamé be weary of Guy (even though Kisameé isn't even a Sharigan user), and soon he opted out the battle, as if he knew that Guy was not going to be an easy opponent for him. Therefore I infer that Itachi has more trouble with people who are equipped to counter him. Which only makes sense. Seeing as War Arc Kakashi knows how to counter him, I do not see Itachi winning without MS abilities since Kakashi outclasses him in nearly everything else at this point.

TheNarutoAnalytic wrote: Going back to Kakashi: by the war Arc, Kakashi had held his ground against Pain who is Sannin level and has 6 paths in a 1v6 fight

Kakashi only fought deva and ashura path, he also had Choza, Choji and 2 other ninja helping him.

You are correct in this statement, however, my point was that Kakashi can hold his ground against opponents far stronger than him, and you can see towards the end of the fight before Kakashi got defeated he no longer had the help of any ninja (from my memory, Kakashi was the last of the ninja to die, and before he got defeated he pulled so witty tricks) TheNarutoAnalytic wrote: Who wins? The question comes down to will Kakashi be able to avoid or subdue Itachi's genjutsu

Yes, I also believe Kakashi can break Itachi's genjutsu. This battle isn't coming down to genjutsu, it will be reminicent of the Obito vs Kakashi fight.

TheNarutoAnalytic wrote: One edge Itachi has is speed, but War Arc Kakashi raised his speed to 4.5. although Itachi's is still a 5, the difference closed by a LOT since season 1. And if Kakashi brings out his talking dogs, the edge in speed won't even make a difference due to more eyes and ears.

I don't see how the dogs would close the gap in speed, I never recalled the dogs serving such a function. Moreover, his trackig fang jutsu won't work since Itachi's sharingan can see the dogs' chakras as they're tunneling under his feat.

When I stated the dogs would close the gap in speed, I meant that Itachi's speed advantage would be nullified because the dogs would constantly shout "watch out Kakashi" anytime Itachi tried to pull some snake shadow clone speed blitzing tricks. And yes Itachi can see the dogs, but theoretically, If KAkashi is able to get all his dogs out, Itachi will have a lot of trouble dodging all of them while trying to fight Kakashi at the same time.

TheNarutoAnalytic wrote: War Arc Kakashi beats Healthy Itachi (with no MS abilities allowed) 4/5 times with medium-high difficulty. Yes, Itachi is smart and cunning with his shadow clones, but he doesn't have a diverse enough arsenal to outsmart a War Arc Kakashi if they aren't using their MS abilities.

This is why I think Itachi would win. It will come down to a battle of ninjutsu and taijutsu, Kakashi has stronger ninjutsu while Itachi has better taijutsu and speed because he was going toe to toe with KCM Naruto while being an edo and fighting Sasuke equally on his death bed. Itachi might not have powerful ninjutsu, but the speed at which he launches his jutsus is a factor that will help him close the gap.

Two times people with the sharingan have failed to read his hand signs in the midst of battle, the first was with Kakashi in part 1 and the second in the Sasuke vs Itachi fight where Itachi managed to create a shadow clone during the shuriken exchange with Sasuke without Sasuke detecting it. In the end, it will be a close fight but Itachi would outlast Kakashi as his sharingan does not consume as much chakra as Kakashi's does. Itachi is well known for creating Shadow clones without people knowing, and having insane speed when it comes to weaving hand signals; I can agree with that much. I also agree that Itachi is superior in Taijutsu. However, I don't think the edge Itachi holds in taijutsu and speed will be enough to compensate for his lack of ninjutsu in comparison with War Arc Kakashi, mainly because Kakashi knows Itachi is fast, and he knows that Itachi will try to speed blitz him. Moreover, by this point Kakashi is experienced with fighting people who are stronger than him, especially if he knows what is coming; he can always last minute dodge and has a superior counter jutsu for anything Itachi throws at him. To me, Kakashi's fight against Pain is proof that he can dodge people who are tricky & faster than him.

However, it is possible for Itachi to speed blitz Kakashi if Kakashi isn't careful and it's always possible for Itachi to pull off some illusion trick, which is why I said Kakashi wins 4/5 times. Basically, it is reasonable to believe that Itachi can win, but there is more evidence that he would not.