Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-31672013-20180831233027/@comment-34194151-20180921202957

1..you reread the chapter but you still don't see it? Chapter 141 pg 12. You can clearly see kisame caught in kurenai's genjutsu, it's obvious since tree roots grabbed his feet. That wasn't asuma's doing, so it was genjutsu, Case closed. Kurenai can catch jiraiya in that same genjutsu and the second she does he is getting blitzed and killed by asuma guy and kakashi.

2.And I never said that kakashi can copy collaboration jutsu, in fact I stated that jiraiya needs to use power to overcome kakashu's copy ninja tactics, which is what collaboration ninjutsu provide. What I did say however, is jiraiya using supplementary jutsu like Yomi Numa would be silly, as kakashi would copy that technique and use it against him.

3. this is what is known as the Yomi Numa fallacy. No technique is inherently both unavoidable and uncounterable. I repeat, the jutsu has only caught a feral, skillless, and experienceless fodder summon, and it caught pain off guard, meaning he didn't see it on the roof when he jumped on to it. Team Jounin has multiple counters. Yomi Numa is a doton. Raiton> Doton. Kakashi is a skilled Raiton user. Do the math. Chakra to the feet is a thing. Normal water can sink people yet ninja can walk on top of it just fine. There is no reason why these jounin wouldn't be able to stand on the swamp if they know to run chakra at the feet in time. They are all experienced ninja who without a doubt have seen earth techniques before. The problem comes if they don't use the chakra to the feet in time, as they will already be slightlty sunk and ensnared by the jutsu obviously, and ONLY then can they not escape. But at that point. Kakashi uses raiton to free himself and his allies, and uses Yomi numa on jiraiya to paralyze him. Even if Team jounin is ensnared, nothing is stopping them from weaving signs. Asuma can still use burning ash. kakashi can still use mid-ranged ninjutsu. Guy can use the 6th gate or 7 gate and outright break free. Kurenai can still cast her genjutsu.

4) Jiriaya vs Pain location can mean a number of things, there were open spaces as well. The only restricted space is the corridor which gives jiraiya a chance to summon his toad stomach more efficently, but that jutsu requires him to be crouched on the ground. Asuma can use burning ash in that corridor and kill jiraiya after kurenai tricks him with genjutsu, and while using kakashi and guy as backup to ensure jiraiya's death.

5) Depends on who steals initative and starting distance. I say 30 feet is standard for this type of battle. At that distance, Kakashi may wait for jiraiya to make the first move as he likes to copy people's technique and use it against them, he may start with lightning tracking fang otherwise. but that says nothing about his teamamtes. Jiraiya would likekly be smart enough to open with summmoning jutsu. So he goes for it and guy is coming thru with that leaf whirlwind, asuma close behind, kakashi using raikiri to help close the distance, and kurenai behind them trying to get into range to cast her genjutsu. Jiraiya is smart enough to create space initally so he will probably get it off if he makes the first move, depends on how fast Guy is. So, the summoning goes off and he summons gamabunta. Gamabunta would force guy to enter gates. Guy's speed and power immediately pushes jiraiya into a corner, gamabunta is too slow to tag gated guy. Jiriaya is forced to take drastic measures. Gamabunta should be genjutsuable by kurenai at that point, asuma tries to weaken him burning ash. Kakashi goes to help guy take out jiraiya. So, I don't see how jiraiya wins this. If he uses yomi numa after the summoning, the jounin counter it, kakashi copies it and uses it to sink gamabunta and or jiraiya...