Talk:Susanoo

Sasuke Anime image
The image i added is just the same as the complet Susanoo. it looks the way it does because it is... fluctuating, i believe that would the best word. Before you just give up on using an aninme image, please try to see if you can get a better screencaptur than me please. Gojita (talk) 13:12, June 2, 2011 (UTC)Gojita


 * It's an inaccurate representation. Compare the teeth and orb thing between the manga and anime versions. I don't think the anime should be used.  ~ Fmakck© (Images 13:37, June 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * There is always the other option of adding them both. With proper subtitles I don't think it'll make a difference.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 13:41, June 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think we should add it at all, but if we will the caption idea could work I guess.  ~ Fmakck© (Images 13:50, June 2, 2011 (UTC)

Just add both but in my opinion, only the anime version should be added for two reasons:
 * 1) It clearly shows how Sasuke's Susanoo looks like Itachi's, just with a different color.
 * 2) How do you know it didn't have the sake jar and mirror in the manga? The current picture doesn't really show the jar but there is clearly a mirror on it's left arm, not a bow. So bascially it uses the same weapons as Itachi. Just add the anime one. BlackGhost91 (talk) 17:23, June 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * The teeth are wrong, there's no "orb"-like thing in it's right hand.
 * Because it was never shown with it? That's not a mirror it's a bow. Itachi's Yata Mirror did not look anything like that. We can't because it's simply an inaccurate depiction of his Susanoo.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 17:29, June 2, 2011 (UTC)

Then how about you put both to show the difference? BlackGhost91 (talk) 17:42, June 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * I already made that suggestion. Nothing's set in stone yet.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 17:46, June 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... I agree, how can we explain its differences if we don't put it both? --NejiLoverr26 17:49, June 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * "as depicted in the anime"--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 17:55, June 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yea we add anime and manga images together all the time. There was a whole discussion about A and Killer Bee's hair color difference which was a big issue for months. Also for the Sword of Totsuka page we added both to display the differences. Also does anybody remember the debate about the Ten-Tailed Beast? These are all fine examples of anime and manga differences which were settled in time. We can use both and say the differences in the captions and in the article paragraphs themselves. That's just my opinion. Banan 14kab  18:27, June 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * I like this idea. We should show the differences between them, even if the differences are mentioned in a different section such as trivia. In that case, the anime only version picture can be shown next to its mentioned differences in the trivia section, which would leave the manga version where it belongs. We can even have that part mention checking out the trivia for the differences in the anime version. Diamonddeath (talk) 04:07, June 3, 2011 (UTC)

I think we should keep the Sasuke final Susanoo (manga). Because the anime downright poorly potray Sasuke's version (too much of the wavely glow filter effect) In the manga we get a true sense of Sasuke's darkness through his incarnation of Susanoo where as in the anime it just looks like Itachi's but purple. Camoxide (talk) 22:07, June 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * I think we should to add them both because it's a better way to show the differences between the manga and anime interpolation, and the anime's version is not wrong it's just it's interpolation of it.

Both are already there, we're simply keeping the poor anime copy separate. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:23, December 31, 2011 (UTC)

HEY!!!!
Don't block it and then remove extra and relevant material. I belive that due to the fact that it has been shown twice now, it is worth noting. --Gojita (talk) 02:24, June 3, 2011 (UTC)Gojita
 * While it's never moved i suppose, but apparently Itachi's roared so the whole thing did seem more like an animation device, nothing more.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 21:20, June 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * Itachi's both moved and roared during it's fight with Orochimaru and even made faces when it was contricted by the snakes. And seeing Sasuke's doing the same recently, that is why i believe we should mention it! --Gojita (talk) 19:08, June 4, 2011 (UTC)Gojita

Three arms
Did you notice that Itachi's Susanoo has suddenly three arms like Sasuke's? I can't remember it having three arms in the fight between the brothers... Seelentau 愛議 19:19, August 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * Hm, I thought it always had three arms. An extra one always held the Sake jar, didn't it? --GoDai (talk) 19:23, August 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Its always had three arms, the third arm holds the Totsuka sword.--Deva 27 19:24, August 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * You're both right, but I never considered that an arm.. looks more like an additional hand to me, but meh, nevermind. Seelentau 愛議 20:01, August 17, 2011 (UTC)

Something that I think was changed is the finger count. I don't remember Itachi's Susanoo having six fingers in each hand. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:03, August 18, 2011 (UTC)

Picture change
I was wondering if it would be a good idea to change the current pic of Itachi's incomplete Susanoo to the most recent one on chapter 551. I believe that the manga pic from 551 show's Itachi's Susanoo in a much more clear way...the current one barely shows the head and arms don't even appear. Any opinions/objections? Darksusanoo (talk) 17:10, August 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * It does show it in more detail.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 18:10, August 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * Add a clearer pic to Itachi's complete Susanoo from 551 then.67.186.100.177 (talk) 05:07, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

Sasuke Yata Kagami
If you look closely behind the left speechbubble of the manga image of Sasuke's Armored Susanoo, one should be able to see the outline of the Yata Mirror, but currently we write that this was only shown in the anime. With the new shape the same outline can be seen even clearer. Due to this i suggest we change the summary of Sasuke's final Susanoo so that it says something along the line with that it posses a shield that is similar to Itachi's Yata Mirror but it is unknown if it posses the same abillities.

Do people agree, thoughts anyone????. --Gojita (talk) 13:00, August 31, 2011 (UTC)Gojita
 * Sasuke cannot have the Yata Mirror, it is a tool that Itachi equipped his Susanoo with and as such wouldn't be inherited. His crossbox has always slightly resembled the Yata Mirror in any case.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 13:14, August 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * My point is that the change in appearance and shape ressembling the Yata mirrror even more, instead of the current writting that claims he actually have the Yata Mirror in the anime. --Gojita (talk) 13:25, August 31, 2011 (UTC)Gojita
 * No it does not, look top right and you'll see the arc of the bow.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 15:22, August 31, 2011 (UTC)
 * I can't see it. Could you create an image where that arc is highlighted???? But if you are talking about the new image, that can easily just be the flaming form, "flaring up". We can't see the other half, so i hadly see THAT as a proof. --Gojita (talk) 16:30, August 31, 2011 (UTC)Gojita
 * Yes it flares upwards not down. Like I said, the crossbow has often looked like the Yata Mirror but it's higly unlikely that Sasuke has it.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 16:36, August 31, 2011 (UTC)

I am also merely claiming that it no longer appears to have a crossbow in it's armored form but merely a shield that looks more like the Yata Mirror than in its complete form and that it should be noted in the both the manga and anime description instead of the anime section claiming that he has both treassures. I have never claimed that he posses the Yata Mirror and i don't intend to do that, at least not until it is shown that the shield posses the same properties. But let's put this to a hold. Let the article be as it is and wait until we see this form from a different angle, shall we not? :-D --Gojita (talk) 16:46, August 31, 2011 (UTC)Gojita
 * But that's the problem, the bow has always looked like the Yata Mirror from certain angles, it didn't change to resemble it even more in my opinion. If we're going to do anything it would be to stay off the topic and not compare it to the mirror at all especially with a dust cloud covering ¾ of the thing because to me, it still looks like the same old crossbow.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 16:54, August 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * First of all please don't go changing so much when there is an ongoing discussion about the apperance. I feel it is rude to me as an editor.


 * Secondly. Sasuke is now using the "blade" to stabe, not shoot, something he never did when the crossbow was clearly viewed, so we cannot even claim yet that it still wields and arrow and a crossbow, but actually a sword. and yes i know that there is the thing about angle and all, but that does not mean that that little flare is the bow on top of the shield. And about Itachi's arm beeing similar. The purpose of dividing the article into the two version was because of the major differences and since the "scally" arm was not seen in the first version i believe that is far worth mentioning.


 * Thirdly. The shape of the crossbow does change in the armored form. One can clearly see that the angle flames that connected the strings is no longer there and the shape is far more "flamy" thus it is worth mentioning that the shape becomes more similar when developing into the armored forms. --Gojita (talk) 17:56, August 31, 2011 (UTC)Gojita


 * 1) I suppose I should apologise for that, even though I swore this was a discussion on Sasuke wielding the Yata Mirror. In any case I didn't see the edits to Sasuke et al. until I was done here.
 * 2) You have no substantial proof that Sasuke is wielding a blade as opposed to what we already know (that it wields a crossbow; the arc of which I showed you, and something that looks exactly like the arrows he wielded before.)
 * 3) Like I said before with the exception of colour of the arrow and orb, they all look the same they did before.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 18:06, August 31, 2011 (UTC)

I suppose I also need to point out that Sasuke's Susanoo isn't "scaly" Itachi's had the same thing when forming.--Cerez365™ 18:11, August 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * One proof i have is that we have never seen the full crossbow since it gained its armor and after Zetzu was stabbed we have neither seen an arrow tip that was clearly visible during his fight with Danzo. And Indeed Itachi's armored version had that, but we never saw it on Sasuke's first version, therefore.--Gojita (talk) 18:15, August 31, 2011 (UTC)Gojita

Sasuke manifested the armoured Susanoo for about a second before it disappeared? Did you see the tip of a sword? If you had just read over his fight against Danzō you'd see where the arrow impaled him and what i'm talking about. Therefore what friend? It's not part of the appearance or an ability and it's not scales, it's just something that happens when the thing is taking form.--Cerez365™ 18:22, August 31, 2011 (UTC)


 * I believe that second or so combined with the current appearance is enough. Also the scally part could actually be better explained. I am refering to the fact that skin seems to peel of. Note the hand that holds the orb in both forms. In the first the hand and fingers apepar normal but in the second version one can clearly see the skin peel of both the arm and the fingers and Itachi's version did not have peel on its fingers. and what do mean about where it impales him??? a thing that size would impale anybody in about the same place no matter if you stab or shoot at them. COULD WE GET SOME INPUT FROM SOME MORE PEOPLE!? --Gojita (talk) 18:27, August 31, 2011 (UTC)Gojita


 * I would like to suggest a compromise revolving around the fact that we only have one image of each of the final forms. I would like to keep the note that the crossbows shape change and then write something along the lines with:


 * It's crossbow seems to have turned into a regular shield ressembling the Yata Mirror even more than before and in its first appearance Sasuke used the now pitch black arrow as a meele weapon


 * Or something along those lines, at least until we can get a better view of it and what it can do. Can we agree on that???? --Gojita (talk) 18:44, August 31, 2011 (UTC)Gojita

Ok like Cerez said:

1. You can clearly see the string/arc thing on the bow in the top right of the picture. It looks like the same bow, just obviously different in appearance. Also the bow did always look like the mirror at times... So its not a sword and shield, it is the bow and arrows, just modified. 2. Not matter the angle, the mouth area has always been fixed to one spot (i.e. Itachi's and Sasuke's Mangekyo version: to the right side, Sasuke's Eternal Mangekyo version: to the left) I highly doubt it is a mistake as we never seen any type of Susanoo move its mouth area to another side before. 3. Judging by your caps, there is no reason to be angry. 4. Ablaze and incinerated can be the same thing. 5. Susanoo has used the arrow as a melee weapon once before. --BlackGhost91 (talk) 19:30, August 31, 2011 (UTC)

I just speed read through things, so forgive me if I've missed something. From what I could understand of this chapter, and what I understand about Sasuke's Susanoo, my opinion is as follows:
 * Prior to EMS, Sasuke's Susanoo had a sword of sorts in an incomplete form, he used it to cut through the pillars holding the ceiling at the Kage Summit. In his complete, non-armoured Susanno, he had a shield-looking crossbow, which also acted as a shield once against Danzō (if I'm not mistaken), and the orb in his right hand, which then also looked like Amaterasu, but didn't seem to be Amaterasu, generated arrows, which didn't seem to be Amaterasu either.
 * After EMS, shield seems to remain the same for me, maybe bigger, but still with the same functions. The orb is still black, but considering what we saw him do to Zetsu, I'd say he can use the orb to both make arrows, since it still has the bow, and an Amaterasu sword, kinda like Amaterasu meets Chidori Sharp Spear. The sword is definitely darker, and it appears to have Amaterasu flickering from it in some points. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:29, August 31, 2011 (UTC)

Referring to the arrow/sword that Sasuke's Susanoo is using in Chapter 553. Looks like it's made up entirely of Amaterasu's flames t'me, not just covering anything. The orb that was held by the Yamabushi-form of Sasuke's Susanoo also seemed to be comprised of Amaterasu's flames.

But the arrows it produced weren't. The tree Danzō created to alter the arrow's path didn't burn. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:07, September 1, 2011 (UTC)

That was before the appearance of the orb, from which the arrows are created, changed to share the distinct appearance of Amaterasu's flames though. SaiST (talk) 07:59, September 2, 2011 (UTC)

the form of it
i think whether it's a bow or a sword, sasuke is able to transform it to fit into proper situation. like he did on kage summit using the sword(or maybe an arrow that being swung). in killing zetsu's clone case he's using the sword to stab him because in such place u can't throw it using crossbow. and i also think that now the crossbow is bound to be a shield like yata mirror. though we can't be sure if it's really yata mirror or shielded crossbow. one interesting thing that i notice is unlike his brother that seal away his enemies using totsuka, sasuke's hatred seems influenced his susano'o to just 'destroy' his enemies using sword of amaterasu. also notice that instead of sake jar, sasuke's susano'o third hand on the final n EMS ver. is holding amaterasu-coated orb or perhaps the orb of amaterasu itself. it produces the amaterasu sword for close-mid range, and bow for long range battle. sorry for my bad english peace! ^^ Feliciaxx (talk) 17:12, October 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * We'll find out exactly what it is and its capabilities/ form in time. The tools that Itachi equipped his Susanoo with aren't the same as the one's Sasuke's came with- there's no need to compare the two.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 17:22, October 8, 2011 (UTC)

Madara's Susanoo
Is it to early to try and say that Madara's Susanoo looks kind of like an Oni? Joshbl56 (talk) 04:19, October 20, 2011 (UTC)

i think it's more like it http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asura_%28Buddhism%29?
 * Ah, ok. I was thinking that since it has the elongated canines and the horn that it looked similar to what an Oni looks like. Joshbl56 (talk) 13:14, October 20, 2011 (UTC)
 * yeah i also agree about that. but is there any Oni with 4 hand and double face? to think that asura mentioned above is a symbol of anti-God in buddhism, maybe kishimoto use it to describe the Oni itself. since Oni also a symbol of bad things, right? Faieezzz (talk) 20:11, October 21, 2011

Two Questions in One
First, should it be mentioned that Madara is the only one of the three (that we've seen so far) that has been pulled out of his Susanoo?

Also, why doesn't Susanoo have a tools section? He does use the Sword of Totsuka, Yata Mirror and the bow. Joshbl56 (talk) 00:14, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

Susanoo is not a character; it's a jutsu, so it doesn't have a tools section. Think of the weapons more like extensions that come with the jutsu.--Endomarru (talk) 03:11, October 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * In response to the first part of your question, I don't think that's necessary. Gaara could have probably done the same thing to Itachi and Sasuke as well in they were in the same situation.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 03:16, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

Size
The wiki currently says that the size of Susanoo can be changed. Are there any examples of this?--Endomarru (talk) 03:10, October 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * Just the fact that the Susanoo itself is much bigger than what the ribcage appears to be when it appears is an indicative of that, but I think that we've seen Sasuke using it from different distances, and going by his size inside Susanoo, it's clear that it would change sizes. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:02, October 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * Uhm I searched for the whole size altering thing and the only thing that came close what during Sasuke vs. Danzo... I made an attempt to explain what it meant really but it's kinda difficult to put in layman's terms but I ended up going into a complex explanation about the user choosing how many thoracic vertebrae they want there and such.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 20:30, October 24, 2011 (UTC)

Madara's Complete Susanoo?
Can anyone please add a picture of Madara's Susanoo showing it's complete form in all its entirely? --BlackGhost91 (talk) 05:27, October 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * We can't, because we have yet to see Madara's complete Susanoo. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:02, October 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * We have actually, when it first appears it wasn't finished forming, in later panels there is "skin" covering its entire body. We just can't get a good image of it.--Deva 27 21:08, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

rinnegan case
should we add rinnegan for its dojutsu ??? because madara's susanoo actived when he use rinnean

No. Madara activated Susanoo when he first activated his Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan. Unless the next chapter comes along telling us that it is, it isn't. Also, sign your posts with four tildes ~. Skitts (talk) 06:42, October 22, 2011 (UTC)

Images
I would like to suggest some other options when it comes to some of the images we use.


 * First is Sasuke's Ribcage. I have theese two.
 * The other is Itachi's complete Susanoo. i can of course easily crope it, though it would prefere we go back to the image with the shield since the current one barely shows anything but the top of the head the "hair". What do people think? --Gojita (talk) 19:59, October 24, 2011 (UTC)Gojita
 * I think images in the article now are fine. In the image you suggested for Itachi's Susanoo we can only see its head. I prefer the manga image since its entire body can be seen.--Deva 27 20:04, October 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Am i in the need of stronger glasses or is it no just the head and arms??? and what do you think about the Sasuke Images i suggested --Gojita (talk) 20:05, October 24, 2011 (UTC)Gojita

All the pictures look cool though for Itachi's you can only see its head. The pictures in the article are good the way they are now.--BlackGhost91 (talk) 20:12, October 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * I like the anime image of Itachi's Susanoo but it's not full-body and since we have a manga shot that does - I agree with Deva27.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 20:23, October 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Alsoooo there's nothing wrong with the image of the ribcage that's there now so why change it o.O? It actually shows all of them unlike the ones you've presented.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 20:41, October 24, 2011 (UTC)

As in way of. they are too thin and the way they are placed around Sasuke does not match any other scene shown in either manga and anime. BTW, sorry about the watermark, i haven't found a video without yet :S --Gojita (talk) 20:53, October 24, 2011 (UTC)Gojita

I think we should use this one instead of the anime picture In manga, Susanoo is grabbing the arrow from the orb in it's secondary arm. While in the anime the arrow looks like a part of the orb and Susanoo is not holding it at all. --Elveonora (talk) 01:42, March 25, 2012 (UTC)

Susanoo Ribcage Characteristics
The picture trying to show Itachi's isn't a Ribcage version of Susanoo. Its just a screen of Itachi in the process of reforming Susanoo, which has already assumed the skeletal state. We clearly see a difference between that picture, and the ribcages Sasuke and Madara formed. Thus, Itachi doesn't have a picture of just the Susanoo ribcage.--NaruHina fan (talk) 20:48, October 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * The ribcage stage is sometimes formed with an arm(s)(Sasuke first activation) and the head has yet to be formed so it fits fine as illustrating Itachi's ribcage stage. --Gojita (talk) 20:50, October 24, 2011 (UTC)Gojita
 * I disagree, I can quite clearly see the complete spinal column and atop of that, a shape that (without reviewing the episode in question) I presume belongs to Susanoo's bottom jaw. Just because the image is cropped to focus on the ribcage portion, it is still unquestionably a picture of the complete skeletal form and thus, is not what it is claimed to be. Blackstar1 (talk) 20:58, October 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * I at first also thought that he wasn't just using Susanoo's ribcage but that was mostly due to me thinking that someone said Sasuke was the first one to do it. If you read chapter 391 going into 392 you'll see that Susanoo has no face so i'm not too sure any more. Either way would be fine with me I suppose.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 20:58, October 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * The image has not been cropped... that's the way it was presented both in the manga and anime. Everything else didn't start forming until later.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 21:03, October 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Look at the clear difference between Sasuke and Madara's rib cages compared to the one featured for Itachi's. You see a clear developmental difference. More bones are seen, both arms, you can see the chin of Susanoo. Its very clearly in the Skeletal Incomplete Stage. Also you have to factor Itachi is rapidly attempting to reform it on extremely low chakra too, so the different stages can't be seen since he has to battle Orochimaru after. Thus, we have zero evidence of a Susanoo ribcage for Itachi in any of the times he has used it.--NaruHina fan (talk) 21:14, October 24, 2011 (UTC)

The volume 58 cover debunks your whole argument. Also Madara's Susanoo debunks your argument too. Think about it.

Itachi's Susanoo
Is confirmed to be a yellow golden color in the manga. Look at the new volume cover to see. 72.66.90.246 (talk) 22:41, October 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, it is made chakra after all. —ShounenSuki (talk 23:10, October 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * Which Kishimoto originally intended to be yellow yes?--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 23:14, October 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * Not just originally. he still draws it as yellow more often than not. Just check Naruto's Kyūbi Chakra Mode. —ShounenSuki (talk 23:27, October 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * Ah, I knew it. I had started thinking that I fabricated that info.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 23:30, October 28, 2011 (UTC)

I think that the colour of chakra differs between users ... Naruto's yellow, but in anime its blue. Mostly like 90% of chakra shown in anime is blue to make it easier ... only a special chakras are coloured differently, like Orochimaru's, Sasuke's CS, Susanoo etc. Dunno the manga, but I always imagined the Raikage's armor to be yellow/golden : (--Elveonora (talk) 11:15, November 1, 2011 (UTC)

I absolutely can't get this mini "edit war" about Itachi's Susanoo colour. Anime team messed up, LIKE MANY TIMES BEFORE. Deal with it, people, what's wrong? To prevent pointless editing, I ask for the support to leave the information about the colour in the anime in Trivia section and delete it from the main section. Also, I propose to delete Anime screenshot and change it with the scan from Volume 58 cover. Faust-RSI (talk) 06:38, November 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * In regards to this days-old proposal I'm against it.

It's also not a matter that the anime team "messed up" it's the order of illustration. They had no idea this time that it was yellow in Kishimoto's mind. I don't think this is a big issue but the way you're presenting it seems to be blowing things out of proportion.--Cerez365™ 12:44, November 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) We should simply do a "In the manga Itachi Susanoo is yellow (red in the anime)" bit- there's no need to separate them like they're Haraaam. The trivia can also mention that it was coloured inaccurately because it was illustrated in the anime before the manga et al.
 * 2) I also propose that the gallery be left with the image we got from the manga recently along with the reference that points us to the volume article page so we can see the image any way. To me, the image cropped from the volume cover just doesn't look proper.
 * I made compromise, this is no longer an issue for me.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 13:07, November 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * If you want to leave the information about anime colour in the main section of the article so badly, so be it, but I still see no reason for it. As for you second point, I did exactly the same edit of the gallery on the October 28 (of course the quality of image available was lower). But then this stupid edit-war occurred. So I decided to change one picture rather than add one new. But now you came and said "no no no, let's just add one more". That's what I did in the first place, so I'm ok with this.Faust-RSI (talk) 13:20, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Can Someone Add Itachi's Final Susanoo From The Manga?
I think the anime version should be in the trivia section while someone should add the most recent version of Itachi's final Susanoo into the picture gallery. --BlackGhost91 (talk) 14:25, November 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * There is no colored version. The anime image can stay out of trivia, the only difference is color and that is already noted.--Deva 27 14:54, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Alive?
Isnt it basically alive ? I mean ... should not it be considered an entity ? --Elveonora (talk) 00:56, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

This is in the article by the way. It's a physical manifestation of the user's chakra, not an entity in and of itself. Skitts (talk) 08:52, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

I know. But it does have mind of its own, right ? --Elveonora (talk) 10:54, November 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Nope. It's only followed the commands of its wielder. Otherwise it just stands there.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 11:39, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

I see, thanks for the answer. --Elveonora (talk) 11:36, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

Madara's Complete Susanoo
You guys do realize that Madara's complete Susanoo has been seen before...right? Then why hasn't there been any pictures of it on the wiki? Look here, the skin of the Susanoo has formed all over its body and it has the distinct characteristic of both Itachi's and Sasuke's complete Susanoo. --BlackGhost91 (talk) 08:50, February 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * We haven't. It's complete only when you can no longer see bones, when it has skin all over. I don't recall seeing it like that. Maybe during the fight against the Five Kage, but either the distance was too big or the angle was bad, I don't know. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 04:10, January 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well... I see no bones and so on. So that does look like the complete thing. Good eye BlackGhost~.Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 12:15, February 7, 2012 (UTC)

Still a bad capture ... better to wait for a new one. --Elveonora (talk) 15:20, February 7, 2012 (UTC)


 * Why was my previous commented deleted? Maybe BlackGhost91 erased it accidentally when updating his comment? I've restored it either way. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:59, February 8, 2012 (UTC)

Susanoo Pictures
I deleted one because we have been only seen Madara's Susanoo ribcage and Complete form. Neither the skeleton/incomplete nor the final form were shown. --ShenLong Kazama (talk) 19:41, February 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Though I got lost somewhere in this, this is the incomplete form (note the ribs can be seen) while the one you removed shows none at all.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 19:46, February 8, 2012 (UTC)

Look closely, the first picture shows that the ribs are only visible from the front, and look at the nose of the second face and compare it to the other picture, it's the same form. --ShenLong Kazama (talk) 19:53, February 8, 2012 (UTC)

Recent edits 2/14/2012
I tried to add a few things to the article, particularly:

1] The idea that Sasuke's Susanoo used with his eternal Mangekyo Sharingan, is based on a Karasu tengu. While the Susanoo used by him and Itachi with the original Mangekyo Sharingan, was based on a Yamabushi Tengu. The distinction is very obvious, as we can also see that the Karasu Tengu variant of Susanoo does not even have ears like the other two Yamabushi Tengu variants.

this and this

Thus, I'm not sure why anyone at all would see the need to remove that, when it does contribute something to the article. The 3 forms of "finished" Susanoo shown thus far, are simply not the same.

2] The skin on the arm of the Susanoo is not "peeling". It is more likely intended to resemble feathers [As the Yamabushi Tengu is merely the more modern appearance of the Karasu Tengu], and is a physical trait of all Susanoo. here

It is not necessary to present it as the skin on the Susanoo's actual arm [Or at least word it in such a manner], since it's wearing an armor cloak as shown in another chapter.

here and here

The actual Susanoo is still underneath the cloak. The feathers do appear to however, be more distributed on the Karasu Tengu Susanoo if someone feels the need to add that to the article.

Overall, I would like to know if these edits are considered invalid, and why they seem to be contested. Wreiad (talk) 13:27, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

I'm only barely familiar with those terms, but it's my understanding that a complete Susanoo has always looked like a Tengu. That's already explained in the influence section, and slightly brushed in the development section. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:33, February 15, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, they all look like Tengu, and technically the two Tengu are basically the same thing, but there's still an obvious distinction like here


 * Thus I don't see the 'issue' in pointing out the difference between the 3, which is relevent and won't take more than a line or two. Aside from that, there are the other edits which haven't been addressed yet. Wreiad (talk) 17:21, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

A bit of that difference is already pointed out in the second bullet point of the influence section, the simplest thing to do is expand that a bit. I don't feel it's necessary to put that information in each user variation. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:33, February 15, 2012 (UTC)

sasuke's eternal incomplete susanoo?
Shouldn't we put a picture of sasuke's incomplete eternal susanoo?[] here's a link? Also why did sasuke reduce his susanoo to incomplete form to pick up that zetsu?--76.92.243.71 (talk) 04:00, February 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok first off...it isn't even a full pic the of the incomplete Susanoo...second unless it has some major difference from the original Mangekyo Sharingan's incomplete Susanoo, there is no need to post another pic. And in regards to Sasuke, he likely did that cuz there was no need to maintain the complete Susanoo, since almost all the Zetsus were dead and he likely picked up that Zetsu with the Susanoo just for shits and giggles Darksusanoo (talk) 04:11, February 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * True, unless we get a full (preferable frontal) view of it that shows definably changes there's no need --Kotoamatsukami (talk) 08:16, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

Trivia/References
"Recently however, it has a total of six fingers per hand instead of just five just like all other known Susanoo."

Why does this point to Chapter 521, page 9, where neither Itachi nor his Susano'o are showed? The mentioned chapter and page depict a part of the Shinobi Alliance killing off some Zetsu soldiers. Perhaps it should be Chapter 551? --95.42.151.1 (talk) 17:48, February 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yep, that would be the chapter. Well-spotted. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:00, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

legs?
Am i the only one who see leg bones in this image. Last i checked the expansion of Susanoo only extended its spinal cord. Anyone??? --Gojita (talk) 12:40, February 22, 2012 (UTC)Gojita ? I'd assume your edit was conflated or something.--Cerez365™ 16:46, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * No. There are legs there. It just needs to be mentioned that Madara's is the first to show that. It could possible be a feature of the EMS Susanoo.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 12:41, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * In the first panel of page 5 you can see Madara's Susanoo with legs kneeling on top of a cliff or something. So yes it has legs. What i don't get is why my edit of it was erased. Darksusanoo (talk) 16:43, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * "Unseen in others' versions, Madara's Susanoo demonstrates an entire body including a lower half and legs."

Question...can some get a lighter/cleaner pic of Madara's Susanoo in page 4...it would represent a better image of Madara's Susanoo in it's skeleton form. Darksusanoo (talk) 19:35, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Rinnegan ?
Since Madara with Rinnegan can use Susanoo but can't use path powers with EMS, should not Susanoo being added as a Rinnegan power as well ? --Elveonora (talk) 15:06, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * No. That's like saying someone can't use a regular Sharingan genjutsu while using MS. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:26, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Didn't you bring this up on the Susanoo talk before and got the same answwer? O_O Skitts (talk) 16:46, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Your reply makes little sense, but okay. --Elveonora (talk) 22:42, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * What he means is that even though the eye progresses, it doesn't mean that you can't use techniques of the former. Susanoo was stated to be a Mangekyo Sharingan ability not the Rinnegan. The same way that the Six Paths of Pain is a Rinnegan ability.


 * What Omni means is that not because the Rinnegan is active, it doesn't mean he can't use Susanoo and not because the Mangekyo Sharingan is activated means he can't use the Shackling Stakes technique for example.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 22:48, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I know what he meant. Rinnegan is another level of Mangekyou, thus it makes sense for it to being able to use MS powers ... that's why it should be listed. I'm not saying Susanoo is a Rinnegan power, but the technique was used with Rinnegan thus it should be added. I'm stating this due to apperance of a technique while certain eye technique being activated, no complex logic behind it. --Elveonora (talk) 23:07, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Putting the Rinnegan there is the same as saying that the technique requires the Rinnegan to be used. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:13, February 23, 2012 (UTC)

Well, but since Rinnegan is an evolution of Sharingan, does not make that Sharingan a devolution ? So should not Rinnegan have the Mangekyou Sharingan powers + Six Paths powers ? Since Madara can use Susanoo with Rinnegan then I guess it makes sense. --Elveonora (talk) 18:04, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

Madara's gallery
So, I'm a bit confused since it seems to me that there are now two (well three to be technical) images in Madara's gallery showing the same thing...--Cerez365™ 17:56, February 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * The only two images that really serve the same purpose are those of his incomplete Susanoo with and without a lower half but given that the former, although displaying more, isn't very clear, I could see an argument for keeping both until a tankōbon version becomes available. Blackstar1 (talk) 18:10, February 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ah I see.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg

Itachi's Susanoo ribcage
After discussion with Cerez365 and Gojita, it seems much better suited to ask everyone about this.

Actually, we don't have Itachi's Susanoo ribcage image and the one appearing with one arm in chapter 576 is the only available for now. It seems to be pretty good, even better than the "Madara's Susanoo Full Body.png" image for being used.

Image ->

We can add it until a better image will be available, but we must think in case that such an image may never appear. Also, it isn't redundant like the "Madara's Susanoo Full Body.png" image we currently use and it will bring something interesting to the page. Iruka-dono (talk) 18:20, February 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * The full body image beeing used is because it dispays the legs, something only Madara's version have shown until now and sadly the image is not that good because the raw version beeing used as per the policy is sadly darkened, it happens, a lot.


 * The ribcage image is not redudant per say, but when one can barely see anything except for the aura an a few lines i personaly prefere that we refrain from using that image and wait until a better image is drawn and if not, by that time, we can add your image. Shappy? --Gojita (talk) 18:33, February 29, 2012 (UTC)Gojita

Madara's Susanoo Naming?
So, I haven't been around for a while so I wanted to ask why Madara's Susanoo has (Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan version) after it when we haven't seen any other version. Joshbl56 22:21, March 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know, but I don't think it is needed, it's unlikely that will ever see what it looked like before.--Deva 27 22:25, March 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it might have been added so as to be consistent with that of Sasuke's, but I agree that it isn't really necessary unless we do actually see how it was depicted before he acquired the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan. Blackstar1 (talk) 22:33, March 1, 2012 (UTC)

Sasuke's Susanoo
Can we move Sasuke's Susanoo picture from the trivia to his section on the page? It seems out of place. Joshbl56 18:46, March 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * I moved it down there, because i though i looked horrible to see both images side by side. Also since it is only shown once i think it fits better with the trivia section where the animation difference is explained. --Gojita (talk) 12:00, March 21, 2012 (UTC)Gojita

four hands/arms
Do i need new glasses or do it see four arms and hands on this image even though it is back to normal in this one ??? How should we describe this? --Gojita (talk) 12:02, March 21, 2012 (UTC)Gojita


 * It grows more hands when needed ?--Elveonora (talk) 16:22, March 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * I know it was mentioned already on this talk page but shouldn't we change add trivia about this page where both Itachi's and Sasuke's Susanoo had four arms and Sasuke's had a sword? It seems like it would be important to mention that Susanoo can grow/create more appendages and weapons if the user wants instead of only having one form? Joshbl56  19:58, March 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * and now they are merged, on to topic then. Seeing how Sasuke's sword(he already had a blade that we rarely saw) is in the opposite hand this might as well be a drawing error. --Gojita (talk) 00:05, March 22, 2012 (UTC)Gojita

I don't think it's an error but we never know. As for the growing appendages the only way that could be added was if after this their Susanoo were actually seen with two three or four hand at any given time after this.--Cerez365™ 00:17, March 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * info and images have already been added to the article, should we let them stay or not? Personally i am against it, seeing how it is only one panel showing it until now --Gojita (talk) 00:26, March 22, 2012 (UTC)Gojita
 * I'd be all for letting them stay, Madara's has two hands (well and two faces._.) it could just be that Kishimoto changed his mind about the design again like the fingers and such.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 00:30, March 22, 2012 (UTC)

Just something to point out, Susanoo's possible left secondary arm is hidden behind the shield/bow. I mean, he must hold it somehow unless it's a part of the arm or just stickied to it. So maybe Sasuke's final Susanoo always had 4 arms. --Elveonora (talk) 01:45, March 25, 2012 (UTC)

I think it's safe to attribute Sasuke's ability to partially form susano'o because of his experience with partial curse transformation. think it should be explored further? shadowfox337174.19.229.59 (talk) 08:52, April 29, 2012 (UTC) (forgot my sign in info)
 * Wah? Every Susanoo user has partially formed Susanoo... And two out of that three haven't been branded with a cursed seal as far as we know.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 10:51, April 29, 2012 (UTC)

Susanoo's Multiple Weapons
The way the article is currently written, particularly in Sasuke's section, it seems to imply that each form of Susanoo is locked to a particular set of weapons, when in fact we've seen that Sasuke can switch between its weapons regardless of the form he's in. Additionally, Itachi has now been shown to have multiple weapons, since he wielded some sort of small blade in chapter 585. Would everybody be in favour of rewriting those sections of the article a bit?--BeyondRed (talk) 19:43, May 9, 2012 (UTC)

More Susanoo weapons for Itachi
He seem to have a normal sword for his Susanoo (http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/585/7), and a knife (http://www.mangareader.net/naruto/585/13). Shouldn't they be added? Patsoumas1995 (talk) 20:14, May 9, 2012 (UTC)

Just throwing my 2 cents ... Susanoo is a physical manifestation of Uchiha user's chakra ... why can't they shape any weapon they like from the chakra ? Apparently they can --Elveonora (talk) 22:04, May 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * So if they can, why not make a note about it? Patsoumas1995 (talk) 15:34, May 12, 2012 (UTC)

Sasuke's complete Susanoo
I think we should stick with a manga picture, as the anime portrayal is not entirely correct --Elveonora (talk) 00:32, May 12, 2012 (UTC)

please elaborate hmm.98.26.240.179 (talk) 00:41, May 12, 2012 (UTC)

In manga, he has a bow in one arm, arrow in second arm and the orb is in the secondary hand. In anime the arrow is coming directly from the orb and it looks less as an arrow --Elveonora (talk) 00:46, May 12, 2012 (UTC)

Just compare ... anime the manga --Elveonora (talk) 01:14, May 15, 2012 (UTC)


 * So the only problem you have is that Susanoo is holding the weapons in different places?
 * And correct me if I'm wrong, but according to the manga image, the orb IS the arrow, just being held by two hands, not to mention the two images display two different scenes, (Sasuke laughing like a fool in the manga, him just standing there in the anime one.)
 * Gonna need a better reason than that imo.--TheUltimate3 Uzumaki Symbol.svg (talk) 01:50, May 15, 2012 (UTC)

No, the arrow is being created and drawn from the orb but is not the orb itself. In the anime picture it looks like it's connected and not really like an arrow. Also he isn't laughing --Elveonora (talk) 15:20, May 15, 2012 (UTC)

Indication by weapons
Did you guys notice somthing? Atleast one of the weapons of Itachi's and Sasuke's Susanoo shows in which other Mangekyō technique they are proficient in. Itachi's Susanoo seals anyone pierced by it's Totsuka Sword into a world of eternal genjutsu, showing his proficiency in Tsukuyomi and Sasuke's Susanoo throws Amaterasu projectiles, showing his proficiency in Amaterasu.82.178.70.13 (talk) 18:17, May 14, 2012 (UTC)

This should be put in trivia.37.41.176.131 (talk) 12:09, May 27, 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't really think it's like that as Itachi's Susanoo is holding a legendary sword which is, apparently, known to do such things and Sasuke create the Blaze Release and incorporated it into his Susanoo, which obviously shows he is proficient in using Amaterasu. Joshbl56  12:18, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * That and Itachi equipped his Susanoo with the weapons he used while he was alive. That a gap the pattern of your theory.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 13:03, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

What? Really? Itachi had the tot sword before he got his Susannoo?37.41.154.99 (talk) 17:16, May 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Don't know when he got it but his Susanoo didn't come with it.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 17:18, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

Then put that thing in the sword's article dude. If it's unconfirmed say it like that. Don't say as if you are 100% sure.134.0.212.199 (talk) 17:52, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

Sword of Totsuka is not a part of Itachi's Susanoo. He has just equiped it with the tools. He found the sword and shield by unknown means --Elveonora (talk) 18:37, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

I understand the reasoning behind this, trying to make sense of how Orochimaru sought out the Totsuka Sword and how Zetsu knew of it and the Yata Mirror, but was this ever stated by any actual source?--BeyondRed (talk) 01:45, May 28, 2012 (UTC)

I am 100% sure that he acquired the sword and equipped his Susanoo with it. You asked if he had the sword before Susanoo which is what I don't know, no one knows that. Orochimaru sought the sword probably the same way that many others did, not because Itachi had it means that no one knew about it. The same can be said for Zetsu's knowledge of the items, they're somewhat "mythical".--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 02:01, May 28, 2012 (UTC)

It's pretty much certain Itachi found and added those weapons to his Susanoo. The Mangekyo itself has been around for less than a century, and the items are legendary meaning Itachi couldn't have been the first to have them/created them, not to mention Orochimaru had been seeking them for ages, long before Itachi was born. Anyway, in regards to the original question, there are some flaws. For one, the Totsuka Sword doesn't put it's victims in an actual Genjutsu, but a 'Genjutsu-like world of drunken sleep' for eternity. Skitts (talk) 12:48, May 28, 2012 (UTC)

I accept that there is something in what Skitts said. That means a Susanoo user can add his own weapons to its arsenal. That's pretty neat, you can store your weapons in your eyes. But how can you people say that Zetsu's knowledge about the weapons was due to their mythical status. Both Zetsu and Itachi were members of the Akatsuki, and Zetsu being the "video grapher" of the organisation, he could have witnessed Itachi use of them. Also the sword being in a sake jar and all makes it hard to believe that it came from outside. I know I am speculating, as it is highly unlikely that someone as powerful as Itachi would have faced such a dire situation that he had to make use of Susanoo, and even if he did, it is even more unlikely he would have done so, knowing the damage it would do to his eyes. Anyway, I won't believe any thing about the Naruto world untill either Kishimoto or Kami himself tells so or it is shown to me with conclusive proof. Who knows, some other mythical weapon might sprout out of Madara's or Suke's Susanoo. Ha ha82.178.70.81 (talk) 13:42, May 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * To be entirely truthful, I'm confused as to what you're on about... The Yata Mirror and Totsuka Sword are famous items just like say the First Hokage's Necklace, why wouldn't other people know about it? Just the fact that Orochimaru said he had been searching for them is proof enough that Itachi's Susanoo didn't come standard with those items. What does Zetsu's role in Akatsuki have to do with anything? The sword is in a sake jar because of the function it serves- locks you in a genjutsu of drunken stupor or something like that.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 13:56, May 28, 2012 (UTC)

Jeez Cerez, I am confused whether to side with you or our anonymous user. In fact, although there is worth in what you said, I also had the same doubt for a long time. Anyway, I thank that guy for putting that subject up.Undominanthybrid (talk) 18:05, May 28, 2012 (UTC)

Just to beat the dead horse, I doubt Zetsu knew about it as he/it didn't seem to know (bottom right corner, he asked what it was). Joshbl56 21:57, May 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * Judging from the text style, that's White Zetsu speaking and he generally knows nothing. But right there they're talking about Susanoo. Later on they have a conversation about the Sword of Totsuka and the Yata Mirror in the next chapter.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 22:09, May 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'll admit White Zetsu doesn't really know much but Black Zetsu ask what Susanoo was and made the statement about it affecting his health, making it sound like he/it doesn't know much to anything about Susanoo at the time. Joshbl56  22:26, May 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually I don't think Black Zetsu was the one to say it because of the script type that was used there (Black and White Zetsu speaking usually has different fonts when they're together) Even so Zetsu asked what Susanoo was not the tools. In 392 pages 16-17 he explains what the Totsuka Sword is and in 393 page 9, he clearly explains the Yata Mirror. The person I think, is confused about it being said that Itachi equipped his Susanoo with those instead of them coming naturally.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 22:39, May 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * The font used for Black Zetsu was used when asking what Susanoo was and that is what I'm going by. Anyway, I agree that Itachi equipped the sword and shield. Joshbl56  22:48, May 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * I remember Orochimaru stating that he was looking for both the Tot. Sword and the Yata Mirror throughout his life. Now look at this; he's been wanting the Sharingan for a long time as well. Who was his first target? Itachi. I'm sure that before fighting one of the strongest Akatsuki members, he did his research on him. If Itachi's Susanoo came with these weapons, Orochimaru wouldn've gone down on Itachi at a much harder and personal level. This, however, didn't happen. Orochimaru was acually astonished to see that Itachi was equiped with these weapons. So yes, I agree to the fact that Itachi had found these weapons somehow, and added them to his Susanoo. ♦ FortressSwan Uzumaki_Symbol.svg Talk Page ♦ 02:23, May 29, 2012 (UTC)

Susanoo Using Question
Down below on the page it says some Uchiha members activated Susanoo without using their MS, has this been confirmed and where? --ShenLong Kazama (talk) 22:02, May 29, 2012 (UTC)

Aren't there references ?--Elveonora (talk) 22:21, May 29, 2012 (UTC)

I was going to bring this up after Itachi's binded Sharingan was shown in recent chapters. The references show Madara using Susanoo with his Rinnegan (which is noted elsewhere in the article) and an instance in which one panel shows Itachi using Susanoo with his Mangekyo and the next shows him with his three tomoe Sharingan (but no Susanoo aura). The third is the only one that really fits, being when he used Susanoo during his battle with Sasuke, but his eyes there appear to be blinded (or almost blind) Sharingan, the same as his left eye looks after using Izanami, not his regular black eyes (although the anime depicted them as such).--BeyondRed (talk) 01:47, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

Full Body Susanoo
Should we get rid of the incomplete susanoo with the full body as you can only see part of the hips? Someone already uploaded one of a complete Susanoo with legs that show them off perfectly. Joshbl56 12:50, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

Perfect Susanoo
Isn't that "perfect susanoo" of madara just the final version of it ? --177.33.218.210 (talk) 13:25, May 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yeah but he calls it the "perfect" Susanoo, so that's what we have down. We will probably change it later, depending on what everyone agrees on. Joshbl56  13:29, May 30, 2012 (UTC)


 * Hm got it..thx--177.33.218.210 (talk) 13:48, May 30, 2012 (UTC)