Talk:Space–Time Migration

technique classification
I'ts a Mongekyo technique because it's similar to Kakashi's Mongekyo Sharingan technique.

When was that stated? Never. We don't know alot about Madara. And just because something is similar it dosen't make it that same. Plus you spelt Mangekyo wrong.--Inferuno Ryuu 18:02, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

well the newest chapters do make it seem like kakashi's time/space warping jutsu, atleast when he shows up and for the lofe of gods Inferuno Ryuu not everyone knows how to spell perfect so who cares if (s)he spelled it wrong huh?Faustfan (talk) 19:25, 26 June 2009 (UTC)
 * To be honest Madara's teleportation does look a a lot like Kamui, but if those powers are related, Madara's (with everything he can do with this technique) is otherworldly when compared to Kakashi's. It will be interesting to see if those two powers are related at all. - MadaraU (talk) 18:21, September 11, 2009 (UTC)

Teleportation
Maybe it was just me. But I think we just saw Madara teleporting and there was like a red/pink flash.
 * I saw that too. It would be a more interesting image to put in the article, more than the current ones. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:50, September 3, 2009 (UTC)
 * Currently, there's no place in the article to add it...--AlienGamer--Talk (contribs)-- 02:46, September 4, 2009 (UTC)
 * We could remove one of the current images and add that one. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:37, September 4, 2009 (UTC)

yea i agree with omnibender....could we replace one of the old pictures for the new 1?--Moiz1224 (talk) 05:49, September 15, 2009 (UTC)


 * The currect 2 images show some important aspects of the technique..1 the phasing through, and 2 the actual way he teleports....dont think either can be removed, unless of an anime pic, showing the same thing..--AlienGamer--Talk (contribs)-- 05:51, September 15, 2009 (UTC)

just put the 2 teleportation pics together, in the same pic --89.122.145.106 (talk) 22:26, September 23, 2009 (UTC)

Dimension
Can we please get a picture of sasuke and karin in the "new dimension" that madara sent them to? Narutosagemaster (talk) 06:47, October 25, 2009 (UTC)

Images
Madaras Teleporting Technique has appeared in he anime alreadey, so just wondering..... could someone add the picture of the red flash of Madaras and the anime version of narutos rasengan passing through madara.plz :D

Thanks :D
I just wanted to thank the person who changed the picture :D

Time-space jutsu?
I understand the space part, he can warp space, but do we ever see him manipulating time? Yeah, I remember Kakashi calling it a 'time-space jutsu'. Flying Thunder God technique is time-space since Minato could probably stop or slow down the time flow, but that's not the same as Madara does. --Kiadony (talk) 09:17, December 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * spacetime. ~SnapperTo 18:07, December 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * Then it should be named *spacetime* jutsu. I don't think Kishimoto did the research like that, but it just seemed to me that time flow in Naruto universe is more or less constant and I don't remember any relativistic references. I know I said myself that you can't go sci-fi nerd on Naruto, but I guess I can't help it >.< --Kiadony (talk) 19:36, December 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * In relativity, space and time are one and the same. That "time" is part of the term does not necessarily mean Madara can manipulate time. ~SnapperTo 20:04, December 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * He can't manipulate space either. What it means is that Madara can travel through time and space, meaning he can trvel to the other side of the universe without any time passing at all, literally, or he can stay exactly where he is and ten years could pass, or even both. 24.45.20.86 (talk) 20:38, December 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the ability to transport objects into another dimension is the manipulation of space... Simant (talk) 20:43, December 18, 2009 (UTC)
 * Manipulating space means controling and changing space; transport means to move which is what I explained is what his technique can do; move through space and time. 24.45.20.86 (talk) 00:42, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

If Naruto was relativistic, then Madara would create wormholes. He, however, uses what Wikipedia calls a 'dimensional teleportation', which doesn't fit into any scientific theories. So it shouldn't technically involve the time part at all. But I guess 'time-space jutsu' happens to sound fancy so whatever. --Kiadony (talk) 18:24, December 19, 2009 (UTC)

technically madara does use space form and space and time interlinked but the space form is when he uses hes teleport to make him intangible actually manipulting space around him also teleporting is moving through fabric of space and time u see i dont think madara would time travel hes got all those rules hed have to follow and ruin his plan u cant interact with past things or it could screw everything up.

Well, he bends time and space. This is where one of einstains theorys are a good example. Let's say that i would walk from point A to point B. It would take me X seconds/minutes/hours etc to get there. What Madara does is that he simply moves from point A to B without occupiaing the space between. The time is altered aswell do to that A-->B/X-x2=Y As Y would be the result of Madara teleporting. He simply shatters the law of time and distance.

Dōjutsu?
Should we classify this as a dōjutsu? After all, it seems to concentrate on the right eye, what with the swirling and suction into it every time. Yatanogarasu 20:20, February 24, 2010 (UTC)

Name and other stuff.
The name is kind of off, what with it not being limited to teleportation. :P Also, I thought the "teleports body parts" thing was just a theory made by Team Good Guy that has since been disproven with the revelation that Madara has true intangibility?Onomatopoeia (talk) 22:53, March 15, 2010 (UTC)

Shouldn't this jutsu be renamed to dimensional transfer since that's what Madara refers to it as in chapter 510? ItachiZero (talk) 22:19, September 19, 2010 (UTC)ItachiZero

Didn't see the raw, but it most likely said something like Jikūkan, which translates into spacetime. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:21, September 19, 2010 (UTC)

Possible Weakness
During the battle between Naruto & Sasuke, Madara quickly protested against Kakashi's attempt at using Kamui against him, while most of the time he simply pretends to be hit and lets the jtsu pass through him. --RinneganLov63 (talk) 02:03, September 11, 2010 (UTC)

No, actully kakashi did use kamui but madara quikley canceled the jutsu so its not a weakness.--Charmanking2198 (talk) 20:29, December 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * ...What? What manga are you reading? Before Kakashi could use Kamui, Tobi told him not to bother because it wouldn't work. He never used it.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 20:32, December 11, 2011 (UTC)

Suction Effect
During his battle against Konan, Madara tries to warp himself away. In this particular panel it appears as if Madara almost sucked in the explosive note, as opposed to Konan sending the notes into Madara when he attempted to teleport.--RinneganLov63 (talk) 19:22, September 30, 2010 (UTC)

A Term We Might Want to Use
During their fight, Konan refers to Madara's space–time jumping as. We migth want to somehow work this into the article. —ShounenSuki (talk 17:25, January 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Unless there is another mention somewhere in past chapters about the name of his ability, I think is the most canon name we have for it. I see no problem in listing it as the technique's name until we either get more exposition or a databook. We'll just need to source it properly. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:31, January 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Bumping name discussion. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 12:17, January 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * I think that's fine it's an official source after all. Besides it has a nice ring to it ^^--Cerez365 (talk) 12:53, January 18, 2011 (UTC)

intangibility?
When fighting Konan,his teleportation/dimension eye technique was made distinct from his intangibility,so shouldn't they be separated into different jutsu's? 67.65.161.176 (talk) 04:07, February 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * If they were....wouldn't he have been able to use them simultaneously then? --Cerez☺ (talk) 09:32, February 17, 2011 (UTC)

Actually I wanted to ask the same. are we sure that these two abilities are one jutsu? --86.97.211.26 (talk) 21:07, March 6, 2011 (UTC) eastfire
 * Ever since his encounter with Team Kakashi and Team Kurenai, it was suggested that the intangibility is him selectively teleporting parts of his body. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:11, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

yes but this is later proven wrong as stated in the article. --86.97.211.26 (talk) 21:59, March 6, 2011 (UTC)eastfire
 * Explaining this in a satisfactory manner would probably require me to understand physical concepts that are beyond my understanding. Long story short, we know too little to say. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:14, March 6, 2011 (UTC)

it also could be possible he cant use ANY jutsu when he's intangible(his chakra vanishes right?,or was that teleportation).and the telportation was just a example.but it was clearly stated that his intangibility and his teleportation are different.(is should be mentoned that someone shouldnt be able to affect someone if their un touchable,aka sucked into a dimention).well,for now i think we should just leave it here until we get more info.but they have completly different effects and properties,their not even the same jutsu type 68.88.7.114 (talk) 01:38, March 19, 2011 (UTC)

Teleporting stuff without physical contact.
The article says that Madara needs to touch a person or an object to warp it, and I guess it's always true in the manga, but in episode 208, he teleports Fū without touching him (at about 14:11). Should it be counted as an anime error and added somewhere? --kiadony 18:28, July 2, 2011 (UTC)

By the looks of it, Madara never touched Karin before warping her >.> (Chapter 467, Page 8) and it was the same in the Anime as far as I remember :]--Comasbasks (talk) 18:37, July 2, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well in the manga when Madara teleports Fū you don't really see him touching him, too, but it can be assumed that he did it since he was rather close, same for Karin. He appears right behind her, IIRC. In the anime however Madara "sucks in" Fū while being on a considerable distance. --kiadony 07:27, July 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * For both instances with Karin and Fū, can you say for certain that he didn't touch them somehow? Because from the angles we're given it's more than possible. We're simply going off the information that was stated in his fights with Konan an Minato.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 14:12, July 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, that's what I'm saying. In the manga, Madara is pretty close to both Karin and Fū, so it can be assumed that he touched them. The anime shows Madara warping Fū from a different angle, and the distance between them is shown, too. --kiadony 15:52, July 3, 2011 (UTC)

What about Sasuke ? Didn't Tobi sucked him in without physical contact? --Elveonora (talk) 05:24, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Not to my knowledge. After he spoke to Naruto, he had his hand on his shoulder. The main case against this is that pre-FTG, every time he tried to warp Minato, he attempted to touch him first. It could be argued that that was to speed things up, but the actual touching seems to be a requirement as of now. Skitts (talk) 05:31, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

You are rigt, thanks. Then animators did it wrong since it was clearly seen Tobi using it without touching. --Elveonora (talk) 05:42, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

Minato's technique used seals to set a destination, where he seemed to be able to define the target offhand. Maybe Tobi's technique is the opposite? As in, he can warp anywhere(within certain reasonable limits) but in order to warp something he has to place a seal on it first? This would explain why he is able to do it without touching the person as long as he had touched them before. Skarn22 (talk) 01:09, November 17, 2011 (UTC)

Anime Image
Aren't these three images :- 1 2 3 doing the work of the previous image. The previous image was from manga and this si from anime. The technique is also well depicted in there three images. akz! (talk)   16:19, September 20, 2011 (UTC)

no replies? Should I change it? akz! (talk)   14:19, September 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * There's a single image showing everything, I think we're good. So no.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 14:25, September 29, 2011 (UTC)

phisycall contact
I know that the space time migration technique gives you the intagbility in wich the user cant be touched unless he is in phisycall contact.but still doesn't that mean that while using this technique he can't be in phisycall contact with objects like WEAPONS!!!! or even CLOTHES!!!!!!!!!?????????
 * While Madara is intangible, he cannot hold stuff, they'll just slip through him.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 13:35, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

Dependence on mass & size?
Where was it stated or shown that the amount of time needed to transport a target depends on its mass (or size/volume)? That statement is unsupported. I know it's logical but as far as this manga is concerned it's speculation. But if I've missed something in the manga can someone please tell me where to look at? --NoJutsu (talk) 20:53, December 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * The one instance I recall something being said about the mass transported was when Minato told Gamabunta he'd need to use a lot of chakra to transport the Nine-Tails, which indeed is huge. Don't know if it's valid to expand that too other space-time ninjutsu, though it seems to hold true: using more chakra gets you bigger summons. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:14, December 31, 2011 (UTC)

Naruto vs Tobi/Madara
Not 100% sure why it was deleted. I suppose it looked bad at least in the history. It should also be noted that Tobi was unable to pass through Naruto while in his Kyuubi chakra mode. Naruto chapter 564, page 1.

^valid tid-bit of information. And no, its not because Naruto is coated in just chakra. Its a special case because even naruto's rasengan passed through madara eliminating the possibility that his ability is nullified by chakra of any kind. We never saw if the chakra chains could pass through minato in their fight. For all we know he materialized after passing through him to make his chains tangible.

Anyway, thats all besides the point. What im sayin is that Naruto can hit Tobi even when he tries to become tangible and that chapter I referenced is proof of that. I quote tobi "I should have passed through you" then he says something about how naruto couldn't even break his mask.User:Devon Lambert - Talk - Contributions 7:39, April 10, 2012 (UTC)


 * Hmm, if Tobi had said something like: 'He can touch me when i'm intangible' then ok, however your proof isn't conclusive enough for me. Comasbasks (talk) 06:52, April 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * Tobi was suprised by Naruto hitting him and his comment about not passing through Naruto is good proof that Naruto nullified his technique somehow. TricksterKing (talk) 10:01, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

Uhm. Naruto is not able to nullify his ability in any way. Where did you get that notion from. What happened when the two men butt heads was simply Tobi being "badass" and saying he should've slipped through Naruto to save his time but it would have been a waste because he wasn't even able to scratch his mask. There's noting more to what happened right there.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 15:02, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

That wasn't how it was translated through mangareaders, Tobi seemed suprised that he got hit and that Naruto's headbutt didn't damage his mask, Tobi wanting to get hit doesn't really make sense considering he does everything possible to avoid attacks in other fights. TricksterKing (talk) 00:30, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Still works if Tobi was simply surprised at finding Naruto, and didn't slip through it in time. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:38, April 12, 2012 (UTC)

Out of this entire debate I think I could understand why Tobi was surprised by being hit by Naruto based off of Omnibender's explanation. Naruto is pretty damn fast so I guess it makes since in that regard. >He saw Naruto but was hit before he could materialize in time.User:Devon Lambert - Talk - Contributions 5:33, April 24, 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand why people are taking something meant to be more symbolic than anything else and turning it into something else. If Kishimoto had wanted Naruto to be able to counter Tobi's migration technique, I'm sure he would've spent more time on it. especially down in the part where it start to rain and Tobi's all reassuring himself and stuff, it wouldn't just be passed over like that.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 05:45, April 25, 2012 (UTC)

Why isn't this written down somewhere
When Tobi fights Minato, Minato is able to land a huge rasengan on Tobi and injure him after throwing his kunai through Tobi's head. When he throws the kunai, Tobi materializes a part of his head right? (to avoid damage) and Minato was able to land his rasengan on him. Can someone please provide a logical explanation to how that works, like is there a disadvantage to Tobi's Jutsu? Can he only materialize one part of his body at a time? And why isn't anything about this written down somewhere in this wiki? //Filipinoboy97
 * Tobi makes himself tangible to hit minato because he feels he is faster than minato but minato uses ftg to teleport to the kunai and lands rasengan when he is still tangible Salil2212™ Uchiha Symbol.svg (talk) 17:02, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

What happened was: Minato throws kunai→ Tobi phases through it. Tobi then became tangible in order to grab Minato after that but Minato (who had planned this) teleports to the kunai while in mid-flight and hits Tobi with the Rasengan. It's mentioned in both their articles, and on the Flying Thunder God Technique article. What was done there was nothing special though.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 17:20, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh ok thanks.

Speed of technique
I am somewhat confused about the speed of this technique. Tobi was able to save Sasuke from Ōnoki's Dust Release technique but he was not able to escape Konan's technique. How is it logical?Undominanthybrid (talk) 15:13, June 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * You're putting too much thought into it that's why. In any case he has to be tangible when he absorbs himself or anything else so if he had tried to teleport away the second he was tangible Konon set off an explosion.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:21, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

Can't make out what you meant.37.40.180.183 (talk) 15:38, June 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * Stop over-thinking it.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:51, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

I always assumed he pulled Sasuke through the ground when he saved him, since A goes right through Sasuke moments later.--BeyondRed (talk) 18:01, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

Tobi began teleporting, and then Konan put exploding tags on him. Had he continued to teleport, the explosions would have hit him, so he turned intangible. To teleport himself, he has to become tangible. He could only remain intangible for five minutes, at the end of which, he becomes tangible. Konan put him in a situation that the only thing keeping him alive was his intangibility, the explosions, but she arranged so the explosions would continue for ten minutes, meaning that at some point, Tobi's intangibility would give out, and he would turn tangible, and as such, susceptible to the explosions. It's not a matter of how fast the technique can be activated, but for how long it can be kept active. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:02, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

Are not Tobi's intangibility and Space-time powers 2 different techniques ?--Elveonora (talk) 00:02, June 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Kinda, but Konan still talked about them like they were the same thing. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:15, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

I always thought about them as separate techniques. Should not we have a separate article for the "intangibility technique" ?--Elveonora (talk) 00:54, June 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Both of them were referred to as the same. I don't think they should be split, at least not now. This is not like a Madara and Tobi issue. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:56, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

The talk has diverted. None of you all answered the question. It was a doubt that I also had for a long time.37.40.228.237 (talk) 17:15, July 17, 2012 (UTC)

Apparently there one in the same now.... mak

Both eyes
Remember when Tobi released Fū and Torune from the other dimension? It seems that used both of his eyes to do so. Is it possible that he can use both of his eyes for the Space-Time Migration is chooses to?--Black Ronin8 (talk) 01:32, August 6, 2012 (UTC)

Remember, Tobi had the Rinnegan and the Sharingan at that time. X29, 01:36 AM, August 6, 2012.

I do, so is that a yes? If so, does that mean the rinnegan is also capable of that power?--Black Ronin8 (talk) 08:02, August 6, 2012 (UTC)

He clearly uses just his Sharingan--Elveonora (talk) 08:32, August 6, 2012 (UTC)

sorry but i have to disagree. if you look at the holes on his mask (for his eyes) you see the swirling vortex releasing fu and torune coming from just his right eye.98.26.245.37 (talk) 08:35, August 6, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan

Oh. It just that, it looked like Fū came out of one eye and Torune simultaneously came out of another.--Black Ronin8 (talk) 01:59, August 9, 2012 (UTC)

This is a mangekyo technique
It is a mangekyo technique, the pair technique to kamui. So the sharingan image should be changed to mangekyo sharingan.


 * Have you seen it being used with a mangekyō sharingan? Well we haven't therefore it can't be added as such. It's more than likely it is, but given the information we have now, we cannot change it.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 04:48, August 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * Agreed. --X29 11:40, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

I agree it's a Mangekyou, "3 tomoe" Sharingans don't have Mangekyou powers, do they? The pattern should look exactly like Kakashi's "_" it's not showing for likely soon to be explained reason--Elveonora (talk) 21:09, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

His eye is never shown when he is using the time-space migration too so it fits, now just for the reveal. 173.66.119.89 (talk) 21:57, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

So, now that he's actually used the technique from the eye, though I am a bit confused about how to proceed. Should we list as MS? --Cerez 365 ™(talk) 13:04, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

I don't see why it shouldn't as ordinary Sharingans don't have "extra powers" it's the same case as Shisui, when it was thought his 3 tomoe was special or something only to turn out for it to be a MS later--Elveonora (talk) 13:52, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

I would tend to agree with the sentiments that a regular Sharingan shouldn't exactly have "special abilities" But the issue is, how comes Tobi is able to use it without activating his MS. I know people have activated Susanoo without going MS, (if I'm not mistaken) but I've never seen them using a "base" technique in that manner. Either way, this is all us assuming the technique comes from the eye in the first place, though the other dimension kinda puts that excuse down.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 18:49, August 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * There hasn't been a confirmed instance of someone using Susanoo without Mangekyo (or Rinnegan). The trivia point on that page comes from Itachi's use of it with his near-blinded eyes during his fight with Sasuke, and is somewhat misleading. As for Tobi's technique, we've never seen his Sharingan while he's using his space-time abilities. He likely just deactivates it between uses.--BeyondRed (talk) 21:42, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

Description
Is there a specific reason, other than Obito fanboys being fanboys, that it is mentioned that Space-Time Migration "originates from Obito's Sharingan"? It makes it sound like Obito himself was capable of accessing this technique, when we have no idea if he would ever be able to even awaken the Mangekyo.

In the Kamui article, it states it's Kakashi's own technique. So now the highest level of space-time ninjutsu belongs to Obito because he claims to have obtained it from a crushed/exploded body? And would someone like to share how it is even classified as a Sharingan technique when there's not really any evidence of being such other than it originating in that particular eye? We've never seen a Mangekyo design from Tobi, and even if it was, he's constantly using it to the point he would have been blind by now. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 20:06, August 14, 2012 (UTC)

We will see soon for sure, the same goes for Kakashi and he ain't blind--Elveonora (talk) 20:22, August 14, 2012 (UTC)

The databook states that his usage of Kamui has a greater strain on his body than normal due to not possessing Uchiha DNA, and he is not exempt from becoming blind from excessive usage. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 20:29, August 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * It's mentioned that the Migration originates from Obito's Sharingan because it does. It was a vital part of the last chapter. The Databooks referred to Kamui as Kakashi's own technique, so Kakashi's own technique it is. If I understand your next point, the Migration is a Sharingan technique because it you know, activates from that sharingan...I'm not sure what the last point was getting at to be honest...--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 20:25, August 14, 2012 (UTC)

There is no databook entry for this technique at the moment. However, if you apply the same principle to a Mangekyo technique (if that's what we're going with) that was activated on its own, namely Kamui, regardless of who's Sharingan it initially was, this technique would be Tobi's and only Tobi's.

My point is that Obito was never shown using the technique, so what purpose is there even mentioning his name? The feat of accessing this technique was achieved by only Tobi. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 20:29, August 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * Tobi said it himself that his Sharingan is Obito Uchiha's, so the technique originates from the Sharingan belonging to Obito Uchiha. What else do you want people to say ? --Speysider Talk Page 20:32, August 14, 2012 (UTC)

LOL, no one says it's Obito's technique, just a technique from Obito's Sharingan.--Elveonora (talk) 20:51, August 14, 2012 (UTC)

So why is there no "originating from Obito's Sharingan" in the Kamui article? They're both supposedly techniques derived from the same person's Sharingan, and there is no mention of Obito in the databook entry for Kamui, meaning the flippin' same exact concept would apply to this technique.

This statement: As both this technique and Kakashi Hatake's Kamui originate from Obito Uchiha's Sharingan, the two share the same dimension when teleporting objects, a characteristic that Kakashi exploited to injure Tobi on multiple occasions during the Fourth Shinobi World War. is sufficient enough. There's no reason to be redundant. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 21:08, August 14, 2012 (UTC)

So evidently people get butthurt when an edit is made to make it not redundant. There is simply no reason to have it state twice that the technique originates from Obito's Sharingan. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 21:55, August 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * No decision has been made and this wiki works on making a decision FIRST before making a change on a controversial section of text in an article. --Speysider Talk Page 21:57, August 14, 2012 (UTC)

Waiting for someone to speak up about having a disagreement about something as miniscule as redundancy. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 00:15, August 15, 2012 (UTC)

I see no harm in adding that the eye Kakashi uses for Kamui is Obito's in Kamui's article. Don't we already do something similar with Kotoamatsukami? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:41, August 15, 2012 (UTC)

It's already mentioned towards the bottom, so it'd be redundant, just as this article currently is. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 03:00, August 15, 2012 (UTC)

Space-Time Migration = Kamui
Isn't the Space-Time Migration basically the most advanced form of Kamui? In the first place, I don't think Tobi ever actually called it Space-Time Migration. It was a name given to the technique by someone else. I'm guessing the main reason that Kakashi can't use it at the same level as Tobi is because of his low chakra levels. So shouldn't we make the page a part of Kamui?

(Shadoguardian (talk) 14:14, August 22, 2012 (UTC))
 * I thought it was directly stated in the latest chapter that his jutsu is indeed Kamui? Why the articles are still not merged?Faust-RSI (talk) 15:45, August 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * I didn't get that impression. Though there's still some stuff that is left out so for now, I believe we should just leave them as is. It is possible that the techniques aren't the same.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:54, August 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * I also didn't get that impression. So, given that we don't have all the information yet and that it would make the Kamui article very convoluted, I agree with Cerez365 in holding off on a merger for the time being. Blackstar1 (talk) 16:01, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

I was under the impression that Tobi started to use his Mangekyō Sharingan at that point and a form of Kamui than. Tobi uses Space-Time Migration all the time with just the regular 3 Tomoed Sharingan, I doubt they are the same and if they are why would he suddenly just start using Mangekyo Sharingan at that moment???

I noticed that his MS made the swirling larger and seemed to increase the range. Tobi could also absorb targets without touching them and from a distance- Despite earlier in the series stating he needed contact(Fight with Minato). To me it looks like the techniques should be seperated(even Kakashi refered to the two techniques as different). Just looks like at most Space-Time Migration may be a lesser form of Kamui. But keep in mind if the jutsu are the same than A.) How is one able to be used without Mangekyo and B.) How come after he used Mangekyo the range of his absorption and the ability to release objects increased far above the levels he had with Space-Time Migration? Skarrj (talk) 16:06, August 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * Tobi didnt absorb anything without touching, on the contrary he was launching stuff, which he has done before, but with the two root guys. A) of course we never saw tobi's eye mangekyo form while using the technique, this would spoil the surprize. i also don't remember seeing his eye cleary while doing the swirl. he might have mangekyo activate, we just couldnt see.  B)The size of the swirl being larger just means tobi never demonstrated this capability before, doesnt mean that he can only do it when activating mangekyo.Holyn (talk) 16:43, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

The same mangekyo form, thus the same sharingan eyes, also the same dimension. It's the same technique. Only with variations of proficiency/usage. let's note that kakashi is not the original owner of the eye, so the usage will not be the same. also, if tobi is not obito, he is also not the original owner, so usage may differ, but if he is obito, then we seeing how the original owner can use it. they are the same technique. Holyn (talk) 16:31, August 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * So now were faced with a problem...given Kakashi's explanation of Tobi's abilities being a single technique, how both their techniques are connected to the same dimmension, the fact he was shwon using the same MS as Kakashi and his own statement of him going to show Kakashi the true power of the Kamui, it's pretty much certain his ability is Kamui...now this begs the question...the Space-Time Migration article has to be erased and the Kamui one needs to be overhauled...but how i wonder...any opinions? Darksusanoo (talk) 16:33, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

- 		 -
 * copy and paste this article into kamui's

The databook desrcribes Kamui as a MS technique. Tobi normally uses STM with ordinary Sharingan. -- The Goblin  18:00, August 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * Except Kakashi was the only Known user at the time. And he's not an Uchiha. Tobi may or may not be one, but regardless, he has Senju dna. So its logical to assume either that since Kakashi isn't an Uchiha he can't use it without the Mangekyo, or since Tobi has Senju dna, he can use it without. Either way, if the articles are merged, It should be categorized into short and long range versions. Left eye for long, right for short. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 19:47, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

I'm under the impression that perhaps Space-Time Migration is Tobi's version of Kamui. Either that, or he has not yet used Kamui and simply activated the Mangekyo to increase the radius and quantity of objects that can be "summoned." --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 19:39, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

Has there ever actually been an instance where we've seen Tobi's Sharingan while using his jutsu? Mohrpheus  (Talk)  19:50, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

Of course there hasn't. It's a common misconception and a lot of people are confused by that. But let me repeat one more time - Tobi's sharingan WAS NEVER SHOWN while using his jutsu, thus the statement that he can use it without MS has no ground at all.Faust-RSI (talk) 20:09, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

~ಠ_ಠNo Links ಠ_ಠ~--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 20:10, August 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * When was it ever stated that Tobi has Senju DNA? I remember reading that he had it, but it was never stated to be inside of him. I thought it was a reference to the Hashirama growth on the base that the Gedo Statue was sitting on as well as Tenzou/Yamato. Diamonddeath (talk) 20:44, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

Why is the Senju DNA being brought to this discussion? This is about figuring if Kamui and Space-Time Migration are the same technique, which i believe, given it working and statements done by the characters that it indeed is the same...now the question to be posed...how will the articles be overhauled to match this? Darksusanoo (talk) 21:12, August 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Because someone else mentioned that having Senju DNA might cause Tobi's version of Kamui/Space-Time Migration to be more powerful than Kakashi's and/or be used more often thanks to the increase in chakra. At least, that's how I interpreted it. Diamonddeath (talk) 21:29, August 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * The Senju DNA is relevant to this discussion as it is believed that it can be used to prolong/prevent deterioration of one's eyesight of over usage of the Mangekyo, provided that Space-Time Migration is even an MS ability.

Stop jumping to conclusions just because you think your thoughts are more accurate. As I previously provided evidence, you can see that when Tobi utilizes his Space-Time Migration, there is no sign of a pupil, let alone a Mangekyo design. Furthermore, Tobi has been using STM consistently throughout this entire fight, so his MS would have already been activated had it required him to do so. Do people think that Kishimoto was simply hiding the design up until now? That's pretty absurd as there have been constant shots of his normal Sharingan and someone, namely another Sharingan user, would have detected his Mangekyo. Also, I do not believe Tobi would continuously activate and deactivate the Mangekyo just to surprise Kakashi or whatever people assume. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 21:30, August 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * That seems like a good reason to keep the design hidden though, since readers would instantly recognize it as Kakashi's, and thus, Obito's. It took the entire encounter with Tobi in the woods before Kakashi spotted his Sharingan, let alone spotting his Mangekyo in the brief times it would have been active.--BeyondRed (talk) 21:48, August 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Besides another point is that an MS eye only has one technique to it...Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, Kamui, Kotoamatsukami (Susanoo being the off case due to it's unique requirements)...so it's safe to assume Tobi's technique is Kamui, only on a more developed level...and the bit about the Senju DNA while somewhat logical is speculation because no statement or reference was ever made, saying that it was the Senju DNA that enhanced Tobi's techniques. Darksusanoo (talk) 22:00, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

I just want to point out that even the same technique may differ between users. Itachi has a complete control over his Tsukuyomi, it's victim's perception of time and manipulation of space included, while Sasuke's isn't much different from a paralyzing genjutsu. Sasuke for a change has an improved Amaterasu (Blaze Release and shit) and being able to extinguish it. Not to mention no Susanoo is the same, with Madara's being kinda unique. So it's not hard to believe that Tobi uses Kamui all the time--Elveonora (talk) 22:52, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

If we're not so certain, why not just place "Space-Time Migration" under Kamui as a subsection? Saying Space-Time Migration is a rudimentary technique to the Kamui itself or something... Yatanogarasu (Talk) 23:59, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand why people want to list this as a regular Sharingan technique. We just learned that the space-time technique Tobi uses, whether it's actually Kamui or a sibling technique, he clearly uses it with MS. We've never seen the design of his eye using before focusing the technique before, which we now have, and Tobi has done nothing in this chapter that he hasn't done in previous chapters. The only difference is the magnitude of what he did, but taking things out of the dimension is nothing new. I don't deny the possibility of it being Kamui, but so far, there are key differences between the uses by Tobi and Kakashi that would point to me that they are different techniques, which make me believe it's more prudent to keep the techniques split for the time being: neither Tobi nor Kakashi have ever performed the same thing with the technique. Kakashi has only ever sent things to another dimension in a long range way. Whenever Tobi has used his to send something away, it's always close range, and he requires physical contact. Do I even need to say Tobi can fetch things back and partially send himself away as differences from what Kakashi has shown? Rhetorical question. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:31, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

... Tobi exclaims that he's going to show the "true/real power of Kamui", and goes on to do the same stuff we've been seeing him do for hundreds of chapters—albeit on a larger scale... What more do you guys need? SaiST (talk) 01:52, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

Him making something disappear long-range would be nice. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:58, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

Tobi can't use Kamui!! This is the power of Obito's left Mangekyou Sharingan. Plus, Space-Time Migration is most likely the jutsu of Obito's right mangekyou sharingan.. I didn't hear about un sharingan able to use this type of jutsu. He wasn't shown using it in his mangekyou sharingan mode probably because the author wanted to maintain the suspense concerning the owner of Tobi's right eye... Whitewhol (talk) 02:23, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

I apologize as I wasn't aware links weren't allowed, but granted, there is no design at all, not even an eye is visible, when performing any of the techniques derived from STM. If we have to leave it as a Sharingan technique for the sake of convenience, fine, but in no way, shape, or form is there any physical or visual evidence of Space-Time Migration being a Mangekyo. Once more, unless he's constantly activating and deactivating his Mangekyo, which would be just plain silly, he's been using a standard Sharingan the entire time until this chapter.

I say we wait and see if Tobi uses the Kamui we are all familiar with, Kakashi's long-ranged version, before we even consider merging the articles. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 02:32, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

Activating and deactivating the eye isn't silly, as exposing the design when he first used the technique would reveal right away that he had Obito's eye. The only good that would have done is made the Tobi theories burn hotter in the past, which would probably have made die out by now. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:50, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

Come on Omni, don't be so irrational. What purpose would Tobi have to activate and deactivate his Mangekyo so many times? He obviously doesn't care if people know who's eye it is since he had no trouble telling Kakashi when asked. There have been an ample amount of scenes with Tobi's regular Sharingan visible during this fight in particular. Speculate all you want, but this is the very first time Tobi has debuted his Mangekyo as he specifically mentioned that he would unleash the power of the full Kamui, and couldn't do so without having it active. There's just no way no one would have noticed his Mangekyo, especially the various Sharingan users he's been around. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 03:01, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

Tobi no longer has to pretend to be someone. He no longer has to pretend to be Madara, nor as pretending to be Madara, he has to pretend to be a goofy guy. If he had revealed the MS before, questions would be asked, which would put in jeopardy the entire faking-to-be-Madara-pretending-to-goofy facade. Preventing exposure by deactivating the eye makes complete sense. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:04, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

If you take the logic that he no longer has to pretend to be anyone, why don't you tell me why he told Kabuto (after exposing him as an "imposter") that the Rinnegan was originally his and that he acquired the DNA from Hashirama's battle? Or how about why he told Konan just before her death who he really was, how he was capable of utilizing Izanagi, and how he fought Hashirama to "access his abilities" and was the true victor by "looking into the future"? Is all of that a lie?

The man doesn't care about his identity, he's said it himself a couple times. The only time his name ever became a factor in his plans is when declaring war or introducing himself to someone new. Him revealing that he had the Mangekyo would have no effect at all. Kakashi had already deduced his ninjutsu and that it was related to his own technique, so why bother waiting a chapter or two to reveal it now? --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 03:15, August 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * Try to think of this from the author's perspective instead of the character's. Despite it clearly originating from his right eye, it's appearance was obviously being obscured whenever he made use of this Space—Time Migration technique. Folks long suspected that it was an ocular power of the Mangekyou Sharingan; the Tomoe Seal's design was being hidden to avoid spoiling anything related to Tobi's identity too soon. SaiST (talk) 07:05, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

Can we stop the BSing around? This technique is obviously Kamui or a specific form of Kamui. There are more people who agree with this on this Talk rather than people who disagree, so let's change it. Nexus32 (talk) 03:18, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

How can you deny it's not Kamui? ಠ_ಠ and ಠ_ಠ

It's CLEARLY stated. And he has Obitos eye, the same MS, thus the same technique. It really is time to cut the b/s and face facts. It's Kamui. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 08:50, August 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * Sometimes I really worry about what is going to happen to this wikia when the older people die... Any way, so because Tobi says the "true Kamui" and some editors would prefer to be cautious and gather all the eggs in one basket before acting off two words, it causes this much of an issue? There are questions that need to be answered such as why does Tobi have to hold an opponent to absorb them, why can't he do the ranged version like Kakashi? Are the two even the same technique? As far as I can see in chapter 598, the "swirl" isn't bigger than the time when Tobi appeared in front of Taka, nor did he absorb anything in the chapter without touching it. The possibility exists that Tobi was going to show them the "true" Kamui and never got around to doing it yet.


 * The tl'dr version is: there's still no need to rush into making changes like merging an article from two words. It's better to be cautious. The information is represented on the wiki, albeit not the form you all want it.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 09:45, August 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree with Cerez. So far the only thing that links the two is their origin and effect, but everything else about them is different. So,for now edging on the side of caution wouldn't hurt.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 10:10, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

I've read the chapter and some commentaries, "True Power of Kamui" don't signifies to be the Space-Time Migration, and I don't know why is everybody saying the to techniques to be only one, Kakashi had discovered the functions of Space-Time Migration but I don't see in any page he say the to techniques to be only one! MaskedManMadara (talk) 17:40, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

Kishi is here!!! well... not really, but Elveonora will try to answer instead of him. Shisui had Kotoamatsukami in both his eyes, unique case as in the other known users, the techniques vary from left to right eyes. So we have 2 cases, both eyes same power, each eye of a pair a different power. Tobi and Kakashi have only 1 eye each of Obito, and since Kakashi has been seen only to use Kamui and Tobi his technique, but proclaimed to show Kakashi the true power of Kamui, and I don't see why Tobi should have 2 powers in 1 eye, it's clearly Kamui.--Elveonora (talk) 18:23, August 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * However, with Shisui, both eyes were shown having the same effect on influencing the thoughts of another. Tobi has shown more things than Kakashi due to a supposed better hold of the technique, yet he has yet to show the same thing Kakashi did. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:41, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

Did you see my comparison comment? Itachi and Sasuke's both Amaterasu and Tsukyomi are a bit different, thus I don't see why shouldn't the usage of Kamui be also dependent on a user. Don't look at the shell, look under it. What Tobi and Kakshi do is pretty much the same thing, only the application is different. Another example is that Wind Release: Rasenshuriken couldn't be thrown at first, later he somehow found a way how to do it. So if Naruto taught Konohamaru an X Release: Rasenshuriken and the latter could use only the melee version while Naruto has it ranged, it wouldn't make a 2 different techniques--Elveonora (talk) 22:53, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

What about the fact that Tobi's technique and Kakashi's Kamui are connected to the same dimension? Kakashi said that only their techniques are connected to the same dimension. Plus no regular Sharingan can pull off that type of technique and unless you have the Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi/Susanoo combo, you typically only get one MS tech, and the similarities between both techniques are too much to simply rule then off as different ones, plus Tobi's boast of showing the true power of Kamui and then starting to pull out those scores of giant weapons, something he never did in battle shows he was using Kamui in battle. People this one is simpler than most are making it appear...we have a consistant string of evidence, a direct statement from Tobi and we saw the MS patern in his eye...your meaning to say he simply pull it off for show? Darksusanoo (talk) 01:12, August 24, 2012 (UTC)

@Elveonora Thing is, we know Naruto can still use it as melee if he wishes or as to. Tobi has yet to use Kamui the way Kakashi does.

@Darksusanoo The moment Tobi shows he can do what Kakashi can, I'll support merging the pages. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:14, August 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * That's it? That's your only reason? I'm fully aware of the need of evidence before adding new things to the wiki, however this is kinda nit-picking, we saw Kakashi's explanation of the technique, how the dimensions are connected, Tobi's statement and the subsequent reveal of the same MS design as Kakashi at the exact same time Kakashi is pulling his MS out...i find it silly fo Tobi to just say he'll show Kamui's true powers and simply pull off the same thing he always does...plus as @Elveonora said, the same technique can have a different aplication but it's still the same technique. Darksusanoo (talk) 01:36, August 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * They could share the same dimension just by the fact both eyes come from the same person, and still possess the different abilities. They will probably be merged down the line, but as far as this chapter went, it could have been more explicit in saying/showing that Tobi's ability is indeed Kamui. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:45, August 24, 2012 (UTC)

If Tobi isn't using Kamui, then why does it say in the trivia on Kamui, "More advanced users (such as Tobi) are able to use Kamui to bring objects back from the other dimension without harm". Does that not go against everyone saying it isn't Kamui? SusanooUnleashed (talk) 06:19, August 24, 2012 (UTC)

Its true, why does it say in kamui's trivia that "More advanced users (such as Tobi) are able to use Kamui to bring objects back from the other dimension without harm", we can't just edit such a thing without merging the tow pages, wether you merge them now, wich i say is wrong or wether you wait untill Tobi shows he can do what Kakashi can, cause its like saying that kamui is space-time migration but both still have their own pages wich is senseless --Charmanking2198 (talk) 07:18, August 24, 2012 (UTC)

I can accept some of the arguments there, but the one stating "let's see Tobi using Kamui in the same way as Kakashi" is plain stupid. Though I believe it is the same jutsu, I'm also 100% sure Tobi can't use Kamui the same way as Kakasi and he will never can. Just like Itachi won't use Kagatsuchi like Sasuke and Sasuke will never use Tskukuyoi like Itachi. Just like Susanoo will always be different from user to user. Even Koto has some differences - the eye Itachi was using needed the direct contact, while Danzo's didn't, though Itachi's version seemed much stronger (Danzo's was broken the moment Mifune became aware of it). Kakashi and Tobi uses different eyes, both borrowed them from the third person, Tobi has abnormal body and both learned to use it differently, so their versions will never be the same, it's silly to wait for it as for the necessary evidence.Faust-RSI (talk)

I don't understand your reasoning. You do remember that both eyes belong to the same person yes? If so, why are you comparing them to that of siblings- two completely independent persons? Even your Kotoamatsukami argument is flawed- Itachi had rigged the eye to react to his Mangekyō Sharingan, other than that, there's no way to prove that both eyes would not function the same. This only underlines the fact that we need to wait for more evidence than two words, because a lot of you are talking about merging the two articles and to be honest most of you will not be here to go through the headache of merging them and the even bigger one to unmerge them. Waiting until next week won't kill any of us.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 11:06, August 24, 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, that's exactly what i was trying to say.--Charmanking2198 (talk) 11:12, August 24, 2012 (UTC)

I would appreciate if my comment could be left intact. SusanooUnleashed, that is sort of a leftover trivia, which was added when Tobi was still being considered a Kamui user. The way things are now, I don't think the two articles should be merged, but I do think Tobi should be listed as a Kamui user, and that this technique should be a MS technique in the infobox. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 04:49, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps for now, a trivia point/mention that this technique may be a more advanced version of Kamui could suffice?--BeyondRed (talk) 06:15, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

We lack the evidence we can't just edit whatever comes to our mindes.--Charmanking2198 (talk) 06:19, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

I think is something like amateratsu and tsukiyomi one is done with one eye while the other with the second. so they are two different tecniques but done with the same pair of eyes. --Nitram86 (talk) 09:18, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

I did remove that trivia point which was no biggie, but listing him as a Kamui user is fine with me, sorta, since he did say he would show him its true power but at the same time, I feel like if we list him as such people will start thinking we're talking about what he did in 598.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 09:27, August 25, 2012 (UTC)

I don't see why he would lie about being able to use Kamui to its fullest potential after revealing his Mangekyo and criticizing Kakashi's borrowed power. So long as something along the lines of "Tobi states he can use the full power of Kamui, but the details of this have yet to be revealed" is added in the trivia or near the end, I believe it should suffice, and if people have a problem with it, so what? You guys have the final say. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 19:44, August 25, 2012 (UTC)