Talk:Six Paths Sage Mode

Name
Considering how the translation for Hagoromo's title was done, wouldn't the name Sage of the Six Paths Mode be a better option? &#34;Let go your earthly tether.&#34; (talk) 05:01, November 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Bump. &#34;Let go your earthly tether.&#34; (talk) 21:52, November 12, 2014 (UTC)

This is what the mode was referred to in the databook. --OmegaRasengan (talk) 22:04, November 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * So it was referred to in English? Okay. &#34;Let go your earthly tether.&#34; (talk) 22:27, November 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, it wasn't and I'm not entirely sure how to translate the Japanese term. It's either Six Paths Sage Mode or Sage of the Six Paths Mode. Looking at how Hagoromo himself isn't a user, I'd rather say it's the first option. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:22, November 15, 2014 (UTC)

Still accessible to Naruto?
Okay, one question. After Naruto exhausted all of his chakra in the fight with Sasuke (and lost his dominant arm as well), does he still have access to Six Paths Sage Mode? I mean like, if the Tailed Beasts were to give him chakra, he would be able to use it, right?

KoPLeaderKiactu (talk) 08:28, December 14, 2014 (UTC)


 * As far as I can gather, he never lost it. In fact he can (apparently) still fly in the movie. Why his form looks different is a question I don't even care about.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 11:28, December 14, 2014 (UTC)

Speaking of which, what does the new appearance of the form look like? I can only find pictures of the updated Nine Tails Chakra Mode. WolfMaster91 (talk) 03:36, January 4, 2015 (UTC)
 * As far as I can tell he's only shown using the Nine-Tails Chakra Mode. Arawn 999 (talk) 09:37, January 9, 2015 (UTC)

Naruto does not combined tailed beast to form the RSM. (Proof)
http://narutobase.net/forums/showthread.php?t=625003
 * Looks like someone got way too obsessed with being right. But whatever, this is hardly any proof. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:51, January 17, 2015 (UTC)

Why is the tailed beast chakra removed as a component...new info from the databook or sth? --DARK ZERO--talk 16:15, January 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * I...don't know?--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 16:25, January 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * This translation doesn't mention anything about combining tailed beast chakra, just says the power was given to him by Hagoromo. (Kuroiraikou (talk) 17:41, January 21, 2015 (UTC))
 * As Seelentau states above, that is hardly any proof. We've seen him use his tailed beasts power in this form. He wouldn't be able to do so otherwise. The transformation came from Hagaromo's power sure, but it without a doubt combining both.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 10:06, January 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * Going over the thread further, several people point out the Original Poster that this that was his fourth attempt to get this acknowledged. Further still, several note that half of those translations ignore blurred texts in scans that state he is in fact combining the chakra.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 10:11, January 22, 2015 (UTC)

Considering this was stated to have bloomed in him, Hagoromo's power wasn't the only thing which activated it.--Elve Talk Page 13:24, January 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * Essentially, TheUltimateThree is correct, until Naruto is shown to use the other tailed beasts' powers without a single trace of using Six Paths Sage Mode as well, this is not proof. You say the Six Paths Sage Mode does not combine the tailed beast chakra, yet he is never shown to use the other tailed beasts' chakras without this mode. So until he is shown to use those powers in that manner, the wiki will affirm that this mode needing the combination of Hagoromo's, senjutsu and tailed beast chakras to come to form is true.
 * -- WindStar7125 (talk | contribs) 00:37, January 23, 2015 (UTC)
 * An alternate option to coming to our own conclusions would be just to copy-paste what the databook entry says about this. In fact it still hasn't been added I think. I know Seelentau's Japanese isn't that good to translate entire technique descriptions, but I'm sure it can be found somewhere on fan forums.--Elve Talk Page 15:11, January 23, 2015 (UTC)
 * Look at the markings nine magatama and Rinnegan, it's exclusive to those who has all the tail beast chakra and besides how can Naruto use all the tailed beast power without them, he can use sage Art: Lava Release Rasenshuriken and kick Truth-Seeking Ball and it is all part of this mode.--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 15:20, January 23, 2015 (UTC)
 * Naruto doesn't have the Rinnegan. Arawn 999 (talk) 00:03, January 24, 2015 (UTC)
 * He is referring to the Rinnegan marking on Naruto's back, not the actual dōjutsu. You should know what he meant by saying that. -- WindStar7125 (talk | contribs) 00:04, January 24, 2015 (UTC)


 * Ok i'll revert my edits.--Kuroiraikou (talk) 09:55, January 24, 2015 (UTC)


 * U don't have to...already did it... --DARK ZERO--talk 10:26, January 24, 2015 (UTC)
 * You missed a few, i already did it--Kuroiraikou (talk) 10:29, January 24, 2015 (UTC)

Asura
On chapter 670, Asura uses the same battle avatar as Naruto on this technique. He isn't user of this technique? → Hyūga_Symbol.svg Rafael Uchiha  Uchiha_Symbol.svg  15:13, January 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * People excuse it with "Asura wasn't QB jinch" and so.--Elve Talk Page 15:49, January 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * The Tailed Beast were given to Asura by Hagoromo, so regardless of how he used them he should be listed as a user of this technique, mainly because of the special multi head conjoined Avatar of Kurama and there were Truth-Seeking Balls around his neck.--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 16:27, January 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Hagoromo never gave any tailed beast to Asura. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 16:32, January 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * We just know he gave him a power-up. What that was is to everyone's guess. Anyway, the manga's over and those orbs may be just either Tailed Beast Balls or Truth Seeking Balls which screams jinchuuriki, even blatantly ignoring the obvious Kurama avatar.--Elve Talk Page 20:51, January 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * We can't add Asura then? → Hyūga_Symbol.svg Rafael Uchiha  Uchiha_Symbol.svg  21:41, January 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * That looks nothing like Kurama at all. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:42, January 25, 2015 (UTC)

It was never stated that Asura had any TB chakra, so I am hesistant to list him as a jinchūriki/pseudo, a user of the Tailed Beast Ball, or a user of the Six Paths Sage Mode/Technique, which all require TB chakra. However, I would not be against adding him as a user of the TSB, though. You may need to be a jinchūriki/possess TB chakra for the usage of the TB Ball and SPSM/T, but not the TSB. TSB is not related to a TB, nor does one need to be a jinchūriki to use it. -- WindStar7125 (talk | contribs) 21:56, January 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * @Seel, really? From the neck down, it's absolutely identical and even the heads bear resemblance, especially the eyes and markings around them.--Elve Talk Page 21:59, January 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Naruto using the exact same mode centuries later also seems to have eluded those who refuse to believe Asura had this. The mode does look like Kurama: remarkably so, in fact. So unless Naruto/Kurama magically reused the exact same method as Asura to produce a virtually identical chakra mode for no other reason than the lulz, Asura had both this mode and tailed beast chakra: Kurama's to be exact. I cannot wait for the day people on this site no longer need a neon sign to divine the obvious. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 02:13, January 26, 2015 (UTC)
 * From the neck down, it looks absolutely like Kurama, yes. But only because both have humanoid bodies. Ashura's avatar has different heads, though. They look more like helmets or maybe bird heads to me, but nothing like foxes. • Seelentau 愛 議 02:29, January 26, 2015 (UTC)
 * Besides the obvious fox ears, whiskers, and nine cape-like tails, right? Because, unless I'm high as a kite, those are there too. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 02:36, January 26, 2015 (UTC)
 * What about the mouth? Asura's avatar looks like it has an opened beak. I mean, I'm not against the possibility that Asura once somehow was Kurama's jinchuriki, but to base it entirely on one picture without any further explanation is too much for me to be okay with. • Seelentau 愛 議 02:41, January 26, 2015 (UTC)
 * I do not see nor count nine tails on Asura's chakra avatar at all.
 * -- WindStar7125 (talk | contribs) 02:43, January 26, 2015 (UTC)

Didn't the databook say what exactly hagoromo meant by saying entrusting asura with power...or maybe give a hint or sth...Because no one can be 100% correct about asura having or not having six paths senjutsu...& this debate can be stretched to infinity with no results...So I suggest that since asura's trivia section regarding his avatar bearing similarities with naruto's six paths tailed beast mode is good enough, we simply add to his page that it is unknown what hagoromo exactly gave him & whether it is related to his avatar...This way people can have their own interpretations too...I don't think it's a bad thing...Well, that's my opinion whether it's convincing or not... --DARK ZERO--talk 11:16, January 26, 2015 (UTC)

@Windstar, 3 tails can be seen, the rest is likely obscured by the body. Point being, it even has tails. Also the eyes are the most glaring thing, identical to Sage Tailed Beast Mode Kurama's.--Elve Talk Page 12:41, January 26, 2015 (UTC)

By the way, I find it very hard to believe that Jin no Sho says nothing new about Asura and Indra.--Elve Talk Page 12:59, January 26, 2015 (UTC)


 * @Saru, I meant Hagoromo believed in Asura's way, he believed the bonds of cooperation is where the true power lay, he wanted a successor to Ninshū, the chakra of Ninshū is the power to connect and he thought that the tailed beast would be used for sharing chakra, so he divided the power and made Asura leader of Ninshū so he could guide everyone including the Tailed Beast, in a way the Tailed Beasts were given to him. If that's not the reason then why Hagoromo decided to divide the power of Ten-Tails? and why Indra became jealous? what power did Hagoromo give to Asura? Through harsh training and cooperation from those around him the chakra inside his body bloomed and he found a power on the same level as his brother, may be that could be Sage Mode and with chakra of tailed beast he gained Six Paths Sage Mode.--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 14:08, January 26, 2015 (UTC)

Why...
...do we use a game-image for this? Isn't it manga > game? Iloveinoxxx (talk) 19:13, February 13, 2015 (UTC)
 * Coloured > non-coloured. Whenever a coloured image is available, it will always be preferred over Black and White. --Sajuuk talk 19:16, February 13, 2015 (UTC)
 * There's no difference. As long as the game colors are correct, why wouldn't we use it?--Elve Talk Page 19:17, February 13, 2015 (UTC)

New Mode not a Rikudou Mode?
I don't know if the new mode Naruto displayed in Gaiden is a Sage of Six Paths mode. There's no Rikudou mark on his back, which is kind o a hallmark of Rikudou Mode. There are no tomoe. Naruto is missing eye-markings but is that enough to classify it as Rikudou Mode? I think it might be too early to place the mode on this page.

Some things that I did notice is that the mode looks like a Ten-Tails. From the rear, Naruto looks like the beast itself. He even has the hands on the ends of the "tails" radiating from his cape, just like the Ten-Tails. I think eventually we'll learn that this is a new mode that is kind of like Beast Mode, only this version would likely be called something like an All-The-Beasts Mode.

I'm just saying, it's missing all of the typical signs of Rikudou Mode -- no seal and no tomoe especially -- and might not belong on this page.

AaaaNinja (talk) 05:03, May 24, 2015 (UTC)
 * Its just Six Path Sage Mode with a new Kurama Cloak. Six Path Sage Mode's primary trait is the cross-eyes without the Sage Pigmentation. He had that this chapter. Not only that, the cloak is extra-Naruto was in Six Path Sage Mode when he first engaged Madara after Guy used Night Guy.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 07:47, May 24, 2015 (UTC)
 * Not sure why don't people listen ._. the cloak or seal do not determine SPSM.--Elve Talk Page 13:59, May 24, 2015 (UTC)
 * Yea, the eyes and cloak aren't indicators of each other, not that hardRiptide240 (talk) 20:19, May 24, 2015 (UTC)

Actually, i juat realized that they are. SPSM is apart of the Six Paths Senjutsu, which is basically recreating the TT power using Sx Paths Sage chakra and TB chakra. So the cloak is actually apart of it. This would explain why he didnt manifest the TSB (which are said to manifest when one awakens the Six Paths Senjutsu) or seal on his back till he donned his cloak Riptide240 (talk) 00:17, May 28, 2015 (UTC)

It's not Rikudou Sage Mode.
Hokage Naruto doesn't have Rikudou Sage Mode anymore. It's a mix of Rikudou chakra, senjutsu and the chakra of all nine tailed beasts. Naruto used up the chakra given to him by the tailed beasts in the fight against Sasuke, as noted by the latter himself near the end of their fight.

Hence why there were no Gudoudamas, no sage staffs and no use of it since. He used Kyuubi Chakra Mode in the Last whilst Kurama was elsewhere, and now used Bijuu Sage Mode in Gaiden with Kurama inside him. Pesa123456789 (talk) 20:16, May 27, 2015 (UTC)
 * Patience, child. I believe and support you on this 100%. But some think that the lack of pigmentation on Naruto's eyes say otherwise, and are very persuasive about this. I would personally advise you to wait and hope that it's all cleared up eventually.--Omojuze (talk) 20:22, May 27, 2015 (UTC)
 * There's no 'patience'. Pesa123456789, Six Path Sage Mode is simply the cross shaped eyes without the pigmentation. Naruto used that form in 672-673, before he even donned the cloak. If it was Biju Sage Mode, he'd have the Sage Pigmentation around his eyes. And the chakra would always come back to him too, its no different than the cloaks Naruto handed out to the Alliance. Your logic is false. And it ignores what the actual form even IS.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 22:20, May 27, 2015 (UTC)

No Truth-Seeking Ball
I'm still on the fence about Naruto still having access to Six Paths Sage Mode but the question now is about his Mode in the spin-off manga. It really can't be SPSM because it doesn't have the Truth-Seeking Balls. But then again, they may have been destroyed in that final battle with Sasuke. Or can he create more?

KoPLeaderKiactu (talk) 06:22, May 28, 2015 (UTC)
 * Truth Seeking Balls aren't the mode but an extension of it.--Elve Talk Page 20:38, May 28, 2015 (UTC)

Chakra of the Nine Tailed Beasts
Beating this dead horse again. According to what I remember, Jin no Sho did not confirm nor deny the SPSM being affiliated with tailed beast chakra. Shikamaru Hiden, however, allegedly confirms so. What do we do here, then? 22:26, May 29, 2015 (UTC)
 * Trivia. • Seelentau 愛 議 22:31, May 29, 2015 (UTC)
 * Agree with Tau. If it isn't confirmed anywhere, then trivia is the best place to put it. It's easy to reasonably deduce that TB chakra is a proponent of SPSM though. Also, although I think novels should be treated as canon in it's own right, I'm not so sure that's the source we want to be using for things of this nature given it's big role in the main story.--Mina [[Image:Hatake Symbol.svg|20px]] talk 22:41, May 29, 2015 (UTC)
 * " If it isn't confirmed anywhere,"
 * Confirmed in Shikamaru Hiden. Allegedly. 22:42, May 29, 2015 (UTC)
 * Yeah I missed that part, hence my last sentence. Meant to edit it earlier, but yeah.--Mina [[Image:Hatake Symbol.svg|20px]] talk 22:44, May 29, 2015 (UTC)
 * Eh, gotta go for now. Do what you guys want. May revisit this later. 22:47, May 29, 2015 (UTC)
 * Weird way to quote. Anyhow, novel mention = not canon. Mention it in the trivia, just like Bunpuku's jinchuriki number, for example. • Seelentau 愛 議 22:57, May 29, 2015 (UTC)

Light Seelentau...--TheUltimate3 (talk) 23:26, May 29, 2015 (UTC)
 * Anyway, while I think the more recently released source is the most accurate, I know how much butt-hurt comes from suggesting the novels explain anything. So I went ahead and put the trivia notes in both the Six Paths Senjutsu and the Six Paths Sage Mode articles. That way, it's in the article and we don't make people cry.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 23:33, May 29, 2015 (UTC)
 * May I ask why are you disregarding the novels Seel?--Elve Talk Page 01:27, May 30, 2015 (UTC)

May I also ask why everyone against TBs being a component thinks it's a coincidence that he's never used the TB abilities outside of the SPSM, or better yet, why they think it's a coincidence that the Six Paths Senjutsu seal and TSB (which were said to appear when one awakened the Six Patjs Senjutsu) did not appear until he donned the cloak? Or even better: why the SPSM is apart of the Six Paths Senjutsu (which is recreating the TT chakra) if it doesn't utilize TB chakra Riptide240 (talk) 05:14, May 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * @Elveonora; Seelentau has stated in the past that because the novels aren't written by Kishimoto, they more or less do not count. As such we had to fight tooth and nail just to get them mentioned in the character articles as part of the Naruto Project.
 * @Riptide240: Because the databook did not mention it. That is pretty much it. In the manga itself, Madara compared Senjutsu Form with Naruto's, tailed beasts and all and his Rinne Sharingan with Sasuke's Rinnegan, stating that we all now have the same power. Hell the databook doesn't mention one of the Six Paths Senjutsu users (think it was Obito) as being a user, despite using the form. But because we had GodHaze or whatever his name was come in, several times, and make long posts yelling and a databook that doesn't seem to care, we have this.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 09:35, May 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not entirely disregarding the novels. They're just not an official source of information to me, because basically, some random author was asked to write a short story about the Naruto characters. It's barely more than fanfiction that was officially made part of the Naruto franchise. I'm not against mentioning them in articles, I'm just saying that it should be done in a way users can see were the information comes from, eg In the Shikamaru Hiden novel it was said that blablabla. I mean, we do the same with anime information (Bunpuku being the first Jinchuriki), so why handle the novels anything different? They're fillers in book form, nothing else, created to please the fandom. • Seelentau 愛 議 10:13, May 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * If the databook forgot some important things like listing Kakashi, Indra and Sasuke as Complete Body-Susanoo users, not adding the Six Paths Senjutsu as senjutsu, or even forgetting Obito as a user, why do we not be so specific about that? Cuz we have common sense. Obviously the others used the Susanoo, im suprised you guys didn't remove them as users, and obviously Obito had the SPS, but did we remove him? No. This makes no damn sense Riptide240 (talk) 11:37, May 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * It's called picking and choosing based on what will cause the least amount of butt-hurt Riptide240.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 11:55, May 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * @Riptide240- We cannot add what our common sense tells us no matter how obvious it seems, this wiki document everything in naruto series, if it is stated in manga, databook or anywhere that will serve as source and will get its place in the article, otherwise no for any reason, for e.g even if it is obvious that Asura is Jinchuriki of Kurama from appearance we cannot write that down in article because we got no accurate source for that, it is not stated. It is better to not add anything than risk adding false information.--Mecha Naruto (talk) 12:09, May 30, 2015 (UTC)

2 Notes.
 * 1) Asura's Battle Avatar does not have fox face. That thing is more like a mask. Common sense nothing besides the glowing form similar to Six Paths Sage Mode, very little actually looks like the Nine-Tails.
 * 2) And yes we are supposed to use what the series gives us. Yet here we are. Where one thing tells us one thing (no tailed beasts in SPSM) another says otherwise (tailed beast chakra in SPSM) but we elect to ignore that and imply the book is wrong and treat it as such. Meanwhile as noted above, we list Kakashi as using a full body Susanoo, despite the databook listing otherwise and that is perfectly fine.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 12:16, May 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * While agree with your point, your downplaying the similarity. Asura's avatar has whiskers, claws, and all the seal markings that Kurama's chakra mode has. And it has tails how many? Idk. Nobody said it's supposed to look exactly like it, but the point is it's tailed beast like in structureRiptide240 (talk) 12:29, May 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * 1)It looks Fox to me because Kurama was young and his muzzle was short, so he would manifest the mode based on his true appearance.--Mecha Naruto (talk) 12:34, May 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * @TheUltimate3, did the databook state that Kakashi couldn't use full body Susanoo or did it simply omit his use? I mean, we all flat out saw him use it so what the databook omits doesn't matter. Also did the databook tell us that there are no tailed beast chakra in SPSM? If so, then I'm not seeing the problem here. We treat the databooks as 100% canon, so that's what we should be rolling with in a case like this one.--Mina [[Image:Hatake Symbol.svg|20px]] talk 12:39, May 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * The databook didn't say they weren't a component, it just didn't mention it. Indra was never stated to use the Susano, but did we say anything about that? No because of common sense damnit!! The databook didnt even mention it, and yet apparently we didn't say anything about that. Why? Because it's so damn obvious!!! Why does the appearance on this page include the look of his chakra cloak. That's obviously the byproduct of the Bijuu chakra, so why is that apart of this page if they have nothing to do with it.Riptide240 (talk) 13:06, May 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * @Riptide240; Picking and choosing.
 * @Minamoto15; The issue comes that we are picking and choosing what to accept or not. We know Kakashi used the Full Body Susanoo, despite the databook not adding him as a user, because we saw it. We were told my Madara that his senjutsu and Naruto was the same, but because the databook didn't mention it isn't added here, BUT the novel did state otherwise but because it is a novel butts bleed because Kishimoto didn't pen & paper it, despite Kishimoto making it quite clear that such a hierarchy doesn't mean jack to him, (Hello Kiba swords, Raiga Kurosaki, Tenzo's backstory).--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 17:16, May 30, 2015 (UTC)

Appearance
For all those against the TB having anything to do with the SPSM, how come the description for the appearance of his chakra cloak is on that page. It's obviously a result of the TB chakra, so why is it considered the appearance of the form?Riptide240 (talk) 05:06, May 30, 2015 (UTC)

Naruto Gaiden form
It's obviously not SPSM. There are far more similarities to Kurama Mode. The only similarity to SPSM is the lack of eye pigmentation, whereas this chakra mode lacks TSB as well as the Rinnegan and tomoe symbol on the back. Furthermore, it's billowiness and flickering flames resemble KM (SPSM doesn't have these features), if the color scheme and designs aren't enough to prove what it is. As for an explanation about the eyes, is it possible he's only accessing that partial state (as he did just prior to facing Madara) whilst using KM? Or perhaps it's simply an evolution of the latter? I just don't think lack of eye pigmentation in and of itself is justification for labeling this entire chakra cloak as SPSM. --ScruffyC (talk) 20:07, June 3, 2015 (UTC)

Eyes
Since the most telling feature of Six Paths Sage Mode is Naruto's eyes, his drawing on the Tailed Beasts/Kurama chakra being responsible for the changes in appearance...shouldn't we actually have a picture of his eyes somewhere in this article? There's a good headshot at the end of Chapter 672, and that's about to be animated soon. --Jizo 悟 (talk) 04:39, June 13, 2015 (UTC)

Combination Transformations
There's something I don't understand, why is it stated that he used it in combination with Kurama Mode years later? Did not he not draw on the chakra of all the beasts (including Kurama) when he first used it, already applying Kurama Mode? Especially since he was able to enter Tailed Beast Mode through it, something he can only do via Kurama Mode? I mean I understand the cloak looks different but why does that matter so much? Unlike then, he has all of Kurama now so it would only make sense that the cloak's appearance would change to reflect more of Kurama right? I understand that SPSM itself is separate from the beasts, I'm just talking about the cloak here. That's all. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 02:09, July 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Currently, there seems to be no consensus about how to classify Naruto's transformations. Based on its databook entry, Six Paths Sage Mode is the cross-shaped pupils with no pigmentation, meaning the chakra cloak Naruto used is some variant of Chakra Mode/Kurama Mode. Yet its picture was also prominently displayed in the databook entry, hence the confusion. The fact is, we don't know what keeps causing Naruto's chakra shroud to change appearance (he's had six distinct forms as of now), so we need agreement on a way to describe them in the articles without making any assumptions.--BeyondRed (talk) 07:09, July 4, 2015 (UTC)