User talk:Seelentau/RTS

Hash
Taking this here. Even ignoring the cover, I'm talking about his Tsunade comments. Hiruzen was like 7 during the village's inception and there's 18 years difference between him and Sannin. Hiruzen began teaching 6 years old to-be Sannin, so he was circa 24. That young gambler Tsunade in Hash's flashback looks about 3-4, so Hashirama was still alive about 13 years after his Hokage appointment, outliving Tobirama, since I believe by the time "training facility" got renamed to "academy" he was dead.--Elveonora (talk) 14:31, May 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * Too much speculation. This is one of the cases where we can just wait. Seelentau 愛議 14:47, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

Hiruzen was 8 when Konoha was founded, it says in Databook 1 that Konoha was founded 60 years ago, Hiruzen was 68 in that databook. He was 18 when Sannins were born and at 24 he became their Sensei. Now here is my problem with everything... when and where was it ever stated that he was a Kage at the time he was their Sensei? For the matter, when and where was it stated Tobirama was a Kage when he became Hiruzens Sensei?? ItachiWasAHero (talk) 01:17, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * In chapter 122, Hiruzen and the Sannin look up to the Hokage mountain with Hiruzen's face already engraved. We don't know when Tobirama became Hokage, we only know he died as a Kage while being Hiruzen's sensei. Hiruzen became Hokage in the first NWW, meaning he already graduated from the academy. The first 36 ninja graduated 40 years bNB and Hiruzen wasn't one of them, he was the 261. to graduate, meaning his graduation from the academy, the first NWW and Tobirama's death happened somewhere between 40 and 32 years bNB Seelentau 愛議 08:01, December 2, 2013 (UTC)

Minato's birth
It cannot be 21 years before Naruto is born, that would mean that Minato would be 47 by Databook 3, Jiraiya was 54 then meaning he was only 7 years older than Minato, so that means Jiraiya would of trained The Ame Orphans when he was 14-17 and became a Jonin sensei of Minato at 17.. That does not sound right at all. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 01:36, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see where you got the 21 years from. Minato was born 31 years bNB, most likely earlier, because he was younger than Kakashi when becoming Hokage and Kakashi was 30 years old at that time. Seelentau 愛議 07:48, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * Minato = Yahiko, Konan and Nagato's age group. Source = my gut. Well, it tends to fail me often, having digestion and defecation problems. But when it works, boy... poop stands no chance.--Elveonora (talk) 22:23, December 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * Minato is around Yahiko's age, yes. Nagato, however, is younger. Dunno about Konan, afaIk we never got any age-related information for her. Seelentau 愛議 07:01, December 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Did your gut tell you as well or did you actually read that somewhere? That Nagato was younger than Yahiko i mean--Elveonora (talk) 15:34, December 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Nagato was born 25-22 years bNB. I got this from the time when he trained with Jiraiya, which happened 15-12 years bNB and Jiraiya noted how Nagato managed to control all natures when he was ten years old. This happened during Jiraiya's training. 15-12 + 10 is 25-22. Seelentau 愛議 15:51, December 3, 2013 (UTC)

And Yahiko was 25-30 5 years bNB, meaning he as well was the same minimal age as Nagato. Nagato was 40-42 at death (with months taken into consideration, them somehow magically adding up or taking away a year) so Yahiko would have been likely too had he lived up to more or less recent events. And as you say, Nagato mastered the elements and shit at the age of 10, it's unlikely Yahiko was 15 during the same time, I know, appearance is no indication, but still. So yeah, we narrowed it now already some time ago. I believe Jiraiya started teaching Minato right after leaving the orphans, meaning Nagati/Yahiko and Minato were more or less the same age, especially considering Minato's academy graduation age being 10, it all fits too well for it not to be true.--Elveonora (talk) 00:58, December 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yahiko died 1 year bNB, meaning he was born 31-26 years bNB. So he could be only one year older than Nagato (without any months) or even 9 years older. We don't know if Nagato was 42-40 at his time of death, it isn't unlikely that Yahiko was a few years older than Nagato (why would it be?) and we also don't know when Jiraiya began to teach Minato, but I agree that it happened sometime after the 2nd NWW. Seelentau 愛議 08:42, December 4, 2013 (UTC)

One things for sure, Kishimoto gave Yahiko's death age as 25-30, Minato's Genin age at 10, Nagato was 10 at one point during his training and the training period of the Ame Orphans lasted 3 years, Nagato is anywhere from 3 years older to being the same age as Minato. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 12:18, December 13, 2013 (UTC)

re: RTS
Bunpuku doesn't have those rings either, so that in my opinions means the rings have no relation to Shukaku and it's more likely Gaara has them because of his father.--Elveonora (talk) 11:40, August 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Bunpuku never used Magnet Release, I have no idea why he's listed as a user. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:43, August 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * I suppose because he was Shukaku's jinchuuriki.--Elveonora (talk) 11:54, August 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh man, that's speculative as hell. This whole wiki is getting out of hand. But oh well... why does Gaara have them all the time, then? And why does his father only get them when he uses Jiton? And what about Toroi and his Magnet Release? He doesn't have the rings despite him using the nature. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:59, August 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Maybe the Jinton that Gaara had inherited from his father mixed with Shukaku's Jinton, so it became some sort of permanent Jinton lol. And Toroi's lack of rings may imply a different kind of Jinton, just like there's different kind of Lava Releases. Or even the rings that 4th Kazekage had have NOTHING to do with Jinton itself, but rather are some kind of boosting technique like Tsunade's seal. We just don't know.--Elveonora (talk) 12:05, August 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * See? So many unanswered things, yet everyone and their aunt wants to add Gaara as a Jiton user. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:07, August 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't you know. Foxie kinda abused his sysop status in my opinion. Snapper doesn't seem to like it either and Omni has quit like Suki it seems.--Elveonora (talk) 12:09, August 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Great analysis. With all that we know, we CAN'T with enough certainty, if any at all state that Gaara has Magnet Release nor that he controls sand with said release. There's just not any relevant evidence, yet Foxie sees it for some reason. Unless he gives us a good reason why should it be kept, I will revert it back and if he locks the pages, there's still other sysops who disagree with him lol--Elveonora (talk) 12:38, August 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Now if only Foxie actually bothered to give a damn about your analysis.--Elveonora (talk) 16:02, August 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * And who are we to deny such glorious logic. You have your evidence, get to work.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:12, August 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, try to revert those edits only for the pages to get "protected" I'm too old to fight over ice cream, let him keep it, he is the one who will get fat--Elveonora (talk) 16:22, August 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then you didn't care enough in the first place to have to get to the point where they have to be protected.
 * Make your edits. They won't be Protected, I'll see to that.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:25, August 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Key hint to Elveonora: Foxie is just another user who just happens to have some extra tools on the wiki, the sysop flag is not a status symbol. However, I'm starting to tire of these virtually daily bitchfests, it makes you all look like 5 year olds >_> --SuperSajuuk Talk Page 20:02, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

It's funny how he called the analysis a theory, when I simply wrote down facts from the manga and how we should handle them.^^ • Seelentau 愛 議 21:51, August 12, 2014 (UTC)

TSB/SPS
Are you sure he used Black Zetsu? Because the majority, myself included interpreted that as Obito absorbing Madara's chakra to form the TSB--Elveonora (talk) 12:08, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, because he formed the staff first and then began to actually absorb something. You can see that there are no chakra flames when he forms the staff, they only appear afterwards (at the the beginning of #666). And only then Madara notices that Obito does something. If Obito began to absorb something earlier, Madara would've noticed earlier and there would've been chakra flames earlier. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:13, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * You are correct and after further observation, I agree. But I don't think there's a reason to bring any YYR business into this, at all. We have observed BZ use Kaguya's powers, isn't it reasonable that he can use some of her powers, since he is her will? So Obito forming TSB from BZ simply meant absorbing BZ's power to use TSB, perhaps?--Elveonora (talk) 12:20, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then why did he use BZ's body...mass thingy? And how does Sage Transformation play into this? Blocking Madara's TSB confirms that Obito's staff was made of Senchakra and Madara himself says that Obito absorbed a little of that power, too... • Seelentau 愛 議 12:36, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's a really complex matter for sure. But we know this:


 * SPS is related to the Tailed Beasts
 * Obito, Madara and Naruto weren't observed to use TSB before they got SPS, so from that alone the requirement can be concluded
 * For Obito, it's a possibility that his usage of TSB in that instance can be explained with leftover chakra, so BZ may not have anything to do with it. After all, he still had Rikudou chakra when he passed it to Kakashi and he wasn't a jinchuuriki at that point, he was dead in fact :P--Elveonora (talk) 12:43, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Rikudo chakra/power is something entirely different again... I hate all this. How can something man-made be so unexplainable? • Seelentau 愛 議 12:51, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, my point was that whatever Six Paths chakra/power is, Obito still had it after he quit being a jinchuuriki and he didn't meet Hagoromo, so he must have had said Six Paths chakra/power from the Ten-Tails. So I think right now the TSB against Madara can be explained as him using leftover chakra of the Tailed Beasts.--Elveonora (talk) 12:55, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Exactly, he had it after he quit the Jinchuriki status and without meeting Hagoromo. That's actually the reason why I asked in that forum thread what exactly the Six Paths are. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:58, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

Lets see:
 * can't be Rinnegan power, cause Kakashi doesn't have Rinnegan
 * six paths may simply mean sage of six paths, so Hagoromo's chakra/power, but Obito never met Hagoromo
 * Hagoromo's got his power from the Ten-Tails/Kaguya, so Hagoromo's chakra/power = Ten-Tails/Kaguya' chakra/power?
 * But that would mean both Sasuke and Kakashi have Ten-Tails' chakra, which would make them jinchuuriki/pseudo
 * But if Sasuke and Kakashi have TT chakra, why can't they use SPS and TSB?

So from this we can conclude, we haven't got a fucking clue about what's happening anymore--Elveonora (talk) 13:05, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * The thing is, even if it's meant as Sage of the Six Paths, there's still the "of the Six Paths". What are these six paths that Hagoromo is a sage of? Is he a sage of the Six Paths Senjutsu? Then again, what is it that makes senjutsu Six Paths Senjutsu? I was thinking that SPS is natural energy + Yinyang chakra, but Naruto doesn't have Yinyang chakra as far as we know. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:10, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, if you insist that the back tattoo is a sign of SPS, then Sasuke and Kakashi don't have it (nor do they have TSB), meaning Six Paths chakra/power is another thing from Six Paths Senjutsu that we don't know about. For "Six Paths" why exactly 6? There are Kaguya's 6 dimensions, 6 Rinnegan Paths and there originally were 6 chakra natures before it got retconned.

Dimension Senjutsu doesn't make sense, Rinnegan Senjutsu too doesn't make sense (since Nagato didn't have Senjutsu, nor Madara for that matter until he sucked it) so that leaves Senjutsu of 6 chakra natures. Perhaps Hagoromo was renown as Sage of Six Paths because he mastered Fire, Wind, Lightning, Earth, Water and YYR, with YYR being the "sixth nature" and Sage because of Senjutsu obviously. But all this doesn't really matter to the relation between SPS and TSB, does it? :P--Elveonora (talk) 13:21, August 22, 2014 (UTC)