Talk:Jinchūriki Forms

Gallery
Glad to see that this page was created. Is the plan to add a gallery for the different users? At the very least, there should probably be pictures for the various aspects of the forms (a close-up of Version 2, the miniature tailed beast skeletons, different uses of partial transformation, Naruto's eight-tailed form, etc.).--BeyondRed (talk) 20:43, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

Sora
When did Sora do partial Transformation? KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 16:03, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Koto, Sora didn't. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 16:08, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

... Dan, I think the fact that someone is asking is indicative of him being listed. So if he didn't use it, why is he listed? --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 16:15, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * He did, his arm partially transforms sometimes.. — S im A nt 16:15, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * If I recall correctly, his arm was always like that until the chakra was removed. It was mutation of sorts. I don't think that counts as a partial transformation, ya know?. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 16:20, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * His arm isn't a bijū arm or is it? Dan.Faulkner (talk) 16:21, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * Nope. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 16:23, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * That is what first thought, that arm isn't from the bijū, being only a mutation, review the episode @Simant. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 16:30, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

His arm wasn't always like that. It was wrapped in bandages, and whenever he tapped on Kurama's chakra, the arm would change into that mutated Nine-Tails arm. Don't know if that counts as a partial transformation, but it seems not too many people actually remember what happened in that arc, so I thought I should bring it up. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 17:32, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * Definitely partial transformation, I brought this up myself long ago and some opposed it. Someone can't "mutate" from chakra, mutations are genetic. It was a result of Kurama's chakra thus partial transformation--Elveonora (talk) 20:03, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * Definitely a mutation and not partial transformation, that has nothing to do with parcial transformation, just look at Sora's hand, looks like a crab's shell or something. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 22:52, July 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Its not a mutation. Mutations are done at the cellular level, and are not caused by energy. It is a direct result of Sora's Nine-Tails chakra, and his arm only transforms when he's agitated/using Kurama's chakra. Therefore, it is a transformation. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 23:26, July 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Foxie is correct this time. The only way for Sora to could have mutated is if he had Kurama's cells/DNA or shit and it would have stayed once the chakra was gone. In fact it looks like a mix between Kurama's arm and his human arm, no crab shell lol.--Elveonora (talk) 12:21, July 2, 2013 (UTC)

(Restarting indents) Anymore opinions on this? I'm watching the Twelve Ninja Guardians Arc on Crunchyroll to get us some more images as well as to update the neglected filler characters everyone seems to pass over and ignore. It seems the consensus is that it is in fact a partial transformation, but, just for a fact check, I've confirmed a few things by re-watching these episodes; Based on this observation alone, I guarantee you, it is a partial transformation, but continuing on; Therefore, based on this evidence, I think it is safe to list Sora as an anime-only user of a, albeit unwillingly, partial transformation (which is no big feat, because Naruto has done it too). ~ Ten Tailed Fox 19:38, July 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sora's arm is caused by his possession of the Nine-Tails Chakra.
 * By that very definition, it is not a mutation. Any one who has studied anatomy, biology, etc. (and being a med student, I've studied this extensively), knows that mutations are caused by a change in the nucleotide sequence within someone's DNA. In other words, you're born with mutations. You don't gain mutations suddenly.
 * The arm is actually a normal human arm except when he's angry and using Kurama's chakra. So, yet again, like most jinchūriki, it is sparked by his usage of Kurama's chakra. Not by a mutation in his genes.
 * Did he? i don't remember Naruto doing it--Elveonora (talk) 22:46, July 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Naruto's partial transformation was far more extreme (eight-tailed form), but it proved that partial transformations can happen unwillingly. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 22:48, July 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * You know Naruto was unconscious back there? It was a forced transformation, nothing he did himself. But oh well, that's not very relevant anyway.--Elveonora (talk) 22:51, July 21, 2013 (UTC)

This is crazy
This generalised page is okay, but why on earth did you guys remove the individual pages? It completely removes the in individuality of the transformations.209.73.151.10 (talk) 17:00, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe because with the generalised article all the individual information is there too, and theres no need to be all those individual articles. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 17:03, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

Menma's Tailed Beast Mode
Since Menma is Kurama's jinchūriki in the Genjutsu World, and he could fully manifest the Nine-Tails (albeit like a summon), shouldn't we put him in the Tailed Beast Mode paragraph?--JOA20 (talk) 21:43, July 1, 2013 (UTC)


 * No. He summoned Kurama. He did not transform into him. There is a huge difference. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 23:26, July 1, 2013 (UTC)

Back on the note of Menma, he did, however, use the initial Jinchūriki mode (during his fight with Naruto, when the Nine Masked Beasts returned to him, watch his eyes, you'll see the red iris with slit pupils). Should he not be listed as a user of the Initial Form at least?--The Eleventh Doctor (Trust me. I'm the Doctor.) 19:54, August 7, 2013 (UTC)

Tailed Beast Mode
We should specify HOW each Jinchuriki who has it reaches it, and whether they have full control or not. It'll make the topic far more accurate and clear up things, since its wrong to assume that Han, Roshi, Utakata, and Fu can assume the full Beast Mode form without outside help since their control is unknown.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 21:39, July 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * I believe that this distinction should be made, since this is the rationale we used for adding or keeping people as users of Tailed Beast Ball. However, I'm not sure that making that in the list of users is the best approach to do it. Mentions during the text should suffice. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:05, July 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * You are taking the term "known users" just means persons who have turned into their beasts. There are more details present in each persons respective article to identify under what conditions the mode was used. And as Omni said, more details can be added to the sections as well.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 22:45, July 6, 2013 (UTC)

Obito Uchiha
How would we go about adding Obito's new form to this page? Doesn't seem to fit the bill of any of the others. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 06:58, July 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Under a separate heading I'd say: main heading "other forms" or "miscellaneous" and then sub-heading "Obito's form" or something like that. Possibly they'll tell us what it is, but for now it doesn't conform to any known forms.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:49, July 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * We should wait for next chapter until we add something about Obito's jinchūriki form. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 17:06, July 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * We don't have to wait. This is a Jinchūriki form. I'm of the same mind of Cerez. An "Other Forms" heading, with a sub-heading for Obito should work for now. Its clearly different from anything we've seen before. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:48, July 9, 2013 (UTC)

The thing is... since we'll see a lot more of this form in the comming chapters, it's more than likely to have a big growth...maybe making a separate article aswell to add the several details...given how it's more similar to Naruto's NTCM, maybe even give an un-official name similar to it...that is when we have too much details and if no official name is given. Darksusanoo (talk) 22:27, July 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * And this latest chapter is just showing me right...Obito's section in his articla for this is geting massive...maybe a new article showing this mode with a un-official name until a official one is given could help. Darksusanoo (talk) 21:56, July 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Until something is named, I am very much against this. It is clearly different from any type of jinchūriki transformation we've ever seen, and I think creating new articles left and right, just because his form is different is a bad way to handle it. Also, there is no magic limit on how big a section should be. It will be as big as it needs to be. Right now, the best course of action is to just leave it how it is. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 22:03, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Colored Pics?
Why do we have colored pics under Obito's Jinchūriki Form? I don't remember him being colored in any chapters (that I've seen) and I thought we didn't use fan-colored pictures. Joshbl56 02:26, July 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * They're not fan-colored. Naruto, Bleach, and One Piece had their last week's chapter re-released earlier today, but in full color.KazeKitsune (talk) 02:37, July 16, 2013 (UTC)

final form
According to Gyuki, the previous form of Obito's was next to the last, that means what we see now is the final transformation; ie. Rikudou Sennin's form.--Elveonora (talk) 11:07, July 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * The "perfect" final transformation won't be exist right now since Naruto and B have their bijū. There's a big difference between this form and Rikudō's. So still nothing confirmed here and also Kurama didn't say anything about this from even with a merely word.  http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a553/anaspet06/Shakhmootssign_zps2a261e68.png  (Contact) 11:22, July 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * He doesn't need the beasts themselves, only their chakra, he already has them all. Gyuki in fact said that the previous form was next to final, so this must be the final form--Elveonora (talk) 11:46, July 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * This from probably should be the final according to Gyūki's statement, but that doesn't mean that it's the same form that the Rikudō had when he was its jinchūriki (i.e. This form =/= Rikudō's form)  http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a553/anaspet06/Shakhmootssign_zps2a261e68.png  (Contact) 11:53, July 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Probably Obito's final form, not Jūbi's, i still don't believe that Jūbi could enter its final form without all Bijū's complete chakra, it doesn't make any sense, but kishimoto trolls what we know as sense, still, they said nothing about this form, we can't say that is the final form yet. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 12:33, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Had Sage not used it, Gyuki wouldn't have recognized it, logic.--Elveonora (talk) 22:45, July 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think this is the beast's final form but the form achieved by its actualised(?) host. The beast's final form was what the Sage confronted and sealed into himself which is what probably gave him that form we've seen post becoming the host.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 22:54, July 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, I meant jinchuuriki form, not the beast's. Octopus guy must have seen it since he noted that Obito's previous one was "next to final" so this is Sage of Six Path's final jinchuuriki form.--Elveonora (talk) 22:58, July 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Not seen, because Gyūki was part of Jūbi then, but know it because it was inside Jūbi once before. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 02:02, July 25, 2013 (UTC)

Suggestion
Since Killer B talked about Tailed Beast Chakra Mode (尾獣チャクラモード, Bijū Chakura Mōdo) way before the term "Nine-Tails Chakra Mode" was used, I think B meant that all jinchūriki can use it. Let me explain. B talked about the full transformation in the Tailed Beast (what we know as Tailed Beast Mode) as the full manifestation of the Tailed Beast after the jinchūriki tapped into its chakra reserves, thus entering "Tailed Beast Chakra Mode". I think we should change the page in something like this:


 * Tailed Beast Chakra Mode
 * Initial jinchūriki form
 * Version 1
 * Version 2
 * Nine-Tails Chakra Mode
 * Tailed Beast Mode
 * Partial Transformation
 * Full Transformation
 * Other Transformations
 * Obito Uchiha's Jinchūriki Form

What do you think?--JOA20 (talk) 10:40, July 27, 2013 (UTC)

Why not put "Nine-Tails Chakra Mode" in the Other Transformations? --Questionaredude (talk) 16:29, July 30, 2013 (UTC)


 * Because it's a form of Tailed Beast Chakra Mode, unique to Kurama's jinchūriki (Naruto and Minato especially), but still Tailed Beast Chakra Mode.--JOA20 (talk) 17:25, July 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * The article is supposed to be used fore generic purposes. Lumping in chakra modes with other modes that jinchūriki are able to enter shouldn't be done. That's why Obito has been thrown into "other transformations" and articles were made for the other ones.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 20:11, July 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * Understood, I'm sorry for the trouble I caused.--JOA20 (talk) 02:21, July 31, 2013 (UTC)

Ten-Tail's Extra Abilities
Since pictures are up from the new chapter, I was wondering if it would now be okay to add in the extra abilities this chapter showed Obito having.

The first is the amazing healing. We see him healing on page 3 and he has shown to have fully healed by page 4 (small picture of him in the bottom left corner of the page) and further evidence can be found on page 9, where he is spinning around.

The second part I want to go over is what Naruto says on page 4. He mentions only feeling natural energy when using sage mode and that natural energy could only be stopped/damaged by itself.

Should we wait until the raws of this chapter come out before putting them into the article or do you think its safe to do so right now? Joshbl 56  00:23, August 19, 2013 (UTC)

Bump Joshbl  56  09:11, August 19, 2013 (UTC)

Obito healed super fast from Naruto's QB Rasengan before becoming a jinchuuriki. The natural energy part should already be there--Elveonora (talk) 12:15, August 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * I must be looking in the wrong spot but I'm not seeing anything about natural energy in his section. I'll add it as a trivia note and see if anyone removes it for now. Thanks for the reply Elveonora. Joshbl  56  20:32, August 19, 2013 (UTC)

Partial transformation gallery
Should we add an image of Naruto's partial transformations after he gained Tailed Beast Mode?--JOA20 (talk) 10:39, August 31, 2013 (UTC)


 * Here's the thing about his Tailed Beast Mode, which makes it iffy to me. When he's in Tailed Beast Mode he is technically fully utilizing the Nine-Tails' chakra, which means whenever he is not full on fox, he is technically in a partial transformation.
 * But that is me spit balling and I'm pretty sure the article itself does not reflect this observation.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:06, August 31, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, yeah, but by partial transformation we mean a manifestation of the tailed beast's body parts, otherwise we would've put Sora's right demonic hand as well. So I think we could put an image of Naruto manifesting Kurama's head or arm, to show the visual differences with the transformation against Pain. And Naruto cannot create a fully-powered Tailed Beast Ball without manifesting the full Kurama cloak, so there's a bit of difference between the enhanced Nine-Tails Chakra Mode and the full Tailed Beast Mode.--JOA20 (talk) 11:21, August 31, 2013 (UTC)


 * The thing is, I don't think those should be considered partial transformations. He isn't transforming into Kurama neither manifesting parts of its body, it's just a chakra cloak--Elveonora (talk) 21:53, August 31, 2013 (UTC)


 * Really? Bee and Gyūki had no trouble stating that Naruto had finally managed to fully transform into Kurama despite the fact that it was not in the flesh, and it is called Tailed Beast Mode, which is the manifestation of a tailed beast without its jinchūriki's death.--JOA20 (talk) 22:05, August 31, 2013 (UTC)


 * It's already been noted that his Tailed Beast Mode is unique among the jinchuriki Elv. What I was saying (which again is not reflected in this article) was that on a very loose technical sense, he is always in a partial transformation once he dons the mantle in Tailed Beast Mode because that was pure Kurama chakra that he could then mold into arms, tails and head whenever he wanted.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 22:22, August 31, 2013 (UTC)


 * So you're saying that Naruto's partial transformations in Tailed Beast Mode are a form of Tailed Beast Chakra Arms? But Chakra Arms cannot create Tailed Beast Balls, so at least Kurama's head should be considered as a partial transformation, along with the chakra arms that have the same marks as Naruto's hands, since they would be Kurama's arms.--JOA20 (talk) 23:03, August 31, 2013 (UTC)

@JOA, really? Tailed Beast Rasengan part of a tailed beast's body isn't needed to create it. Naruto doesn't transform into Kurama one bit, that giant cloak fox isn't Kurama, but the cloak enlarged. It really is more like chakra arms--Elveonora (talk) 23:18, August 31, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, that's all fine and dandy, except for the fact that Kurama said Naruto had transformed into "his tailed beast", B and Gyūki said he'd be come Kurama, so on and so forth. Look, stop arguing against Kishimoto. Its been noted that Naruto's Tailed Beast Mode is unique among Jinchūriki, but it is the Nine-Tails he's becoming according to the Nine-Tails himself. So just leave it at that. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:50, September 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * No one argues against its "uniqueness" and Kishimoto. The facts are tho that Naruto doesn't transform physically into Kurama neither the chakra cloak fox is Kurama. When Killer B is in Tailed Beast Mode, he and Gyuki are one and the same being. They both get hurt when attacked and bleed, going as far as Gyuki loosing teeth and horns. On top of that, both Killer B and Gyuki can speak through the transformed body in Tailed Beast Mode.

For Naruto, the chakra cloak fox lost its tails, Kurama didn't get hurt, neither Naruto got because it wasn't their body again. And I'm yet to see the chakra cloak fox open its mouth and speak. There's no transformation being done, they just merge their chakras and Naruto forms a giant fox body out of it. But the topic is about partial transformation... the same applies to it. Forming chakra head is no different than forming chakra arms and neither are actual parts of Kurama's body and Naruto's doesn't change and as such they do not classify as partial transformations in its literal definition not at least. In fact, we list Killer B Version 1 Lariat's "horns" as chakra arms and by that so should we the head.--Elveonora (talk) 11:48, September 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Another conversation I do not wish to engage in a lenghtly argument over. I will just say this: Tailed Beast Mode as we've been told is turning into the tailed beast within. Naruto's Tailed Beast Mode is stupid unique, but he is turning into Kurama regardless. The Nine-Tails speaking through it is irrelevant, hell the Eight-Tails only spoke on the outside once and ever time after that it has been speaking to B or the Nine-Tails through telepathy.
 * That being said, this entire discussion took a turn that will most likely not be used for any article anyway, especially this one was it was originally about the partial transformation gallery so I suggest we either drop this Tailed Beast Mode discussion or the entire one in general.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:31, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

Utakata
Why to remove Utakata's V2 picture?--Rikudo Sennin 47 (talk) 00:02, September 4, 2013 (UTC)

Article Name
Wouldn't "Tailed Beast Transformation" be a more appropriate name for this article? It's a term actually used in the manga and would also cover the non-jinchūriki who can transform, like Kinkaku.--BeyondRed (talk) 20:19, September 5, 2013 (UTC)

Update trivia?
Can we now update the 3rd trivia point? Seeing as it was explained in this weeks chapter, pretty much. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 14:28, September 6, 2013 (UTC)

Bump SusanooUnleashed (talk) 05:19, September 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * What about it?--Elveonora (talk) 22:13, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

Fukai's Tailed Beast Mode?
Why is Fukai in the list of those jinchūriki who accesso Tailed Beast Mode? By definition Tailed Beast Mode is the full transformation of a jinchūriki without the latter's death, and Fukai did die in the Eight-Tails' rampage.JOA20 (talk) 13:22, September 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's not the point though. Fukai has transformed. It was the Third Raikage that killed him. He didn't die as a direct result of the transformation.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:32, September 7, 2013 (UTC)

Ten tails
should i add obitos tailed beast transformation? or wait till next week--Shotcolla7 (talk) 00:47, September 9, 2013 (UTC)

Also, is Obito actually present on the battlefield OUTSIDE the juubi? Or we just see him same as when Kirabi talks with Hachibi while transformed? Faust-RSI (talk) 06:16, September 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * Any picture from the chapter will do. If anything I would suggest one before the Ten-Tails becomes a giant tree.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 10:11, September 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * This one http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/File:Naruto-4446385.jpg Faust-RSI (talk) 10:29, September 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well hell, a picture of the tree will do then.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:35, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * We should wait for the raw, as it's not allowed to post pictures with English text, the previous one got deleted.Faust-RSI (talk) 12:19, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * The picture of the tree is fine, considering the alternative was freaky mutation anyway regardless of texts.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:27, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

Version 2
Doesn't the Version 2 form appear unique enough to have its own page?--RexGodwin (talk) 08:20, September 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * No, Version 2 is the same for everyone (the jinchuriki get their skin mostly burned and replaced by the chakra of their tailed beasts [exc. Gaara]), just that some jinchuriki display a feature specific to their transformation, making a separate page for that is pointless. --Speysider Talk Page 08:35, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

Im not talking about the different varieties of V2 amongst the Jinchuriki, i mean the Version 2 form itself. It itself is a much different, special thing from the basic Biju form.--RexGodwin (talk) 08:56, September 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * No. Naruto's Nine-Tails Chakra Mode is unique to only Naruto, and as the article has shown, possesses enough uniqueness to warrent a new article. Version 2 can literally be summed up as Version 1 with upgrades, which is why it and Version 1 are sections of a single article.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 10:09, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * "Looks at Minato" --Elveonora (talk) 11:36, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Unique to Naruto and Minato then.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:45, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

Partial Transformation=Tailed Beast Mode?
As we have seen, Naruto can partially manifest Kurama's limbs only when he is in Tailed Beast Mode (though there's actually a panel showing him manifesting Kurama's arm in Nine-Tails Chakra Mode), so should we put the Partial Transformation section as a sub-paragraph in the Tailed Beast Mode section?--JOA20 (talk) 13:12, October 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * The thing about partial transformation and tailed beast mode is that Tailed Beast Mode is when the user is consciously transforming into their tailed beast, completely. Naruto only creating Kurama's limbs in Tailed Beast Mode just means Naruto has only created limbs in Tailed Beast Mode but considering his Tailed Beast Mode in general is so different from the others he can't be the end all of things. Killer B has just stood there all human and then grew eight tails out his butt yet he was clearly not in Tailed Beast Mode.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:41, October 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * What I'm trying to say is that the jinchuriki enters Tailed Beast Mode even when he/she manifests only a portion of the monster's body.JOA20 (talk) 17:49, October 12, 2013 (UTC)

^Except they dont, as BM for all the other Jins that dont have a half Bijuu (Yin/Yang Kurama) are recognized as their full forms, and partial is just that.. partial. Narutos is special, thats all there is to it.--RexGodwin (talk) 18:50, October 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * Point of clarification, having the yin and yang doesn't mean anything. Naruto's first tailed beast mode had fur.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 21:42, October 12, 2013 (UTC)

tailed beast mode variant
Shouldn't we consider what Obito and Naruto with Menma in the movie did as a variant? Using their tailed beasts without actually transforming themselves or unsealing it from their bodies.--Elveonora (talk) 14:01, February 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree with that because I was thinking the same thing. So u have my support Riptide240 (talk) 15:52, February 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd either list it in the trivia section, as it was a movie only thing, or I'd mention it as a tailed beast mode. What they did is very much like what Gaara did in Part 1. Even with Shukaku fully manifested, Gaara was still out. It's also similar to B manifesting his human self from a part of the Eight-Tails body. "Tailed Beast Manifestation" is essentially tailed beast mode. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:55, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

why do we
Use a temporarily term for Hagoromo, Obito, Madara and Naruto's forms? It was given a name in canon by Madara who called it "sage transformation"--Elveonora (talk) 09:53, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Madara called Obito's sage mode staff "Sage Transformation". • Seelentau 愛議 09:58, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm sure he was referring to the whole thing, orbs and all. It contextually makes sense considering that orbs also consist of Senjutsu.--Elveonora (talk) 10:00, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Still not the jinchuriki forms. • Seelentau 愛議 10:14, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * They are one and the same. Ten-Tails' chakra is Senjutsu since it in itself is natural energy incarnate. So saying the staff is senjutsu but not the form, despite the staff being part of the form is weird.--Elveonora (talk) 10:39, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's not. Obito didn't assume the form when he formed the staff out of Hashi's Senchakra and Kuro Zetsu. • Seelentau 愛議 10:40, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Obito is a jinchuuriki no longer. Gaara manipulates sand and could pull out Shukaku, because he still has trace amount of its chakra, but can't assume a form anymore either. The little chakra of Ten-Tails Obito has left is enough to use the orbs, with more chakra he would grow horns and all.--Elveonora (talk) 10:51, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * How very speculative. • Seelentau 愛議 10:51, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

I don't see any speculation, just your refusal to accept facts. I'm not even sure with what you disagree here. The orbs happen upon becoming the Ten-Tails jinchuuriki (fact, seen twice), Naruto alternatively got the orbs from fusing Senjutsu chakra and chakras of the 9 Tailed Beasts (fact), together the two make up the same chakra as the Ten-Tails has. By your logic, Naruto in Part I. while using just a little of Kurama's chakra, the "initial form" wasn't using a jinchuuriki transformation? The staff and orbs even without the cloak, horns and all are a jinchuuriki transformation since they use the Ten-Tails' chakra. The more chakra Obito would have, the more would he transform, obviously.--Elveonora (talk) 11:02, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * "Gaara manipulates sand and could pull out Shukaku, because he still has trace amount of its chakra" - speculation. • Seelentau 愛議 11:46, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Is it? We were told that as its ex-jinchuuriki, Gaara could pull out Shukaku, unless I'm mistaken. Since he can manipulate sand, it means Shukaku's power was embedded into his body, so you could say Shukaku's chakra had an ever lasting effect on Gaara. That means he has trace amounts of Shukaku's chakra in my dictionary. Anyway, onto the topic itself, I can see your reasoning, you consider the balls akin to chakra arms rather than the transformation itself, I believe? Well, the thing is that they appear simultaneously with the transformation after becoming the Ten-Tails' jinchuuriki. It's illogical to call a technique (the orbs/staff) a transformation rather than the whole stuff surrounding it being the transformation, I hope you get it--Elveonora (talk) 11:58, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, I do. Then why did he transform Black Zetsu? • Seelentau 愛議 12:13, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not all of us have come into agreement that he did. To me it looked like BZ protecting itself from the black orb being produced from Obito's palm.--Elveonora (talk) 12:32, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * If you were a black mass, would you retreat like he did? Well, I would make sure not to leave parts of me behind, like he did. • Seelentau 愛議 12:36, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Well, we now know that the Ten-Tails' chakra and by extension of the 9 Beasts' + Senchakra is what makes up the substance. I don't see how Black Zetsu, who is ... Madara's will given life with YYR? falls into any of that, unless you can explain.--Elveonora (talk) 12:43, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because YYR is still not out of the game. I believe there to be a crucial information we still not have, in order to solve this whole issue. • Seelentau 愛議 12:46, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * U can clearly see the black orb above his hand penetrating it. And the combination of the bijuus and Hagoromo's senjutsu chakra (which is the Ten Tails power since it's senjutsu itself) is what made his shroud's appearance differ and the Truth-Seeking BallsRiptide240 (talk) 12:54, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * This. If YRR IS a part of it by default, then either of the Tailed Beasts must have Yin R, Yang R or YYR as their affinity, which we don't know about. Also why would Obito use Black Zetsu to get the YYR nature part for the orbs, despite the fact that Madara taught him YRR himself decades earlier?--Elveonora (talk) 12:59, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * As I said before, I think there's something about Chakra, YYR and Senchakra, that we don't understand yet because we miss some information. But I'm trying to figure out what information we're missing this weekend, so please bear with me. • Seelentau 愛議 13:13, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Topic at hand people...if the issue was about Naruto's transformation, keep it on such. Take the Yin-Yang issue to the Truth-Seeking Ball article.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:28, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Well the original topic was that the jinchuuriki forms revolving around the TSB was called "sage transformation" by Madara so we should call Obito, Madara and Naruto's new jinchuuriki forms as such instead of using fanon/temporarily fancy terms--Elveonora (talk) 13:34, April 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * For once I agree with Elve. Sounded to me like Madara was refering to the whole transformation and, given the fact that he refers to himself (in the new chapter) as having both the Senjutsu of the Six Paths (which was clearly depicted as Naruto's shroud) and the Rinnegan, then yes, I'd say the Ten-Tails form is called Sage Transformation. It wouldn't make any sense for him to call the just staff "Sage Transformation" when he knows the name of the black substance. No, contextually, he is almost certainly referring to the entire transformation. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 16:57, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wow, is this the first time you agree with me or so? I thought it would never happen. I'm touched :) Now, how do we handle that?--Elveonora (talk) 09:02, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

Bump guys.--Elveonora (talk) 12:08, April 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * So shall we now change it to sage Transformation? Riptide240 (talk) 12:34, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Duh, we shall, since that's the only canonical term for it.--Elveonora (talk) 12:36, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hey, no need for the "duh". It's just because i didnt see anything happening. Riptide240 (talk) 12:38, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * That duh wasn't meant for you, but to those who came up with stuff like "senjutsu of the six paths" and "enhanced chakra mode" and shi* Thank you for cooperation--Elveonora (talk) 13:11, April 20, 2014 (UTC)

Question about the Sage
Did he go through Sage Transformation, like Naruto and Madara, or did he...you know...just kinda look like that? I ask because, compared to Naruto and Madara, who's unique forms manifested themselves into clothin in one way or another. But the Sage...I don't know. Didn't he always just...kinda look that?I mean, what he's wearing sure doesn't look organic like Obito's form was, but yeah...question.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 20:42, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * His clothing appear to be just that, clothing, yes. Although the skin color, horns and all might be part of his jinchuuriki form, but we don't know that. We are yet to see him young and before he sealed the shinju into himself.--Elveonora (talk) 20:46, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * I can safely say his horns are not. Look closely at the image of him and his brother fighting the Ten-Tails. Both of them have horns.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 21:37, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Those are hair, Hagoromo's horns are shorter than his hair, they can't even be seen from behind.--Elveonora (talk) 21:49, April 20, 2014 (UTC)

They most likely inherited them from their mother. If his brother had them there's no reason why he shouldn't. And we can clearly see his brother's horns. Riptide240 (talk) 22:35, April 20, 2014 (UTC)

Vandalism
Admins or rollback users can you please help out this page the page has been expeiring some vandalism some of which says that the ten tails transformation is now called sage transformation naruto is now a part of this, also picures are zoomed in like obito and some just worst than the first like madera and a lot of other things as well so please rollback the bad edits that have been made on this page. ToskaBlader1277 (talk) 04:13, April 25, 2014 (UTC)ToskaBlader1277 (talk) 04:16, April 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * The Ten-Tails' Jinchūriki's Form has been called Sage Transformation by Madara in chapter 666. Naruto is listed as a user because despite not being a jinchūriki of the Ten-Tails he still attained the form and the abilities it grants. The images are blurred because there's some problem in the wiki — it doesn't depend by us.--JOA20 (talk) 06:49, April 25, 2014 (UTC)

oh I didn't know that chapter 666 was a vary long time ago so a thought like that was unheard for me also I shoud of look in the talk page before saying that it was vandalism and i am really sorry for making conclueions like that and it won't happen again. ToskaBlader1277 (talk) 20:55, April 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Basic rule of editing on a wiki: Assume good faith in all edits, instead of calling them vandalism, when you haven't read the appropriate chapter. --Speysider Talk Page 21:06, April 25, 2014 (UTC)

Resembling Hagoromo
When Obito became the Jinchuriki, Madara said that Obito became the same as the Sage. Later he talked about how Obito went through Sage Transformation only once. Madara meant by ST that they are resembling Hagoromo after having the same power that he has. So having "Hagoromo's Sage Transformation" under his picture is wrong. --MERCURIOUS (talk) 12:38, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * I've been saying that what Madara meant by Sage Transformation referred to their Hagoromo-alike appearance, but folks here changed the form to six paths senjutsu, shrugs--Elveonora (talk) 12:50, June 10, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya
Since Kaguya was a pseudo-jinchuuriki (like Sora and Kinkaku), and is now a jinchuuriki, shouldn't her picture appear under the "Unique Transformations" section? WindStar7125 (talk) 18:56, June 10, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125
 * Except nothing about her so far hints at a transformation. She looked like that before too. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:59, June 10, 2014 (UTC)

Before, wasn't it a transformation into a pseudo-jinchuuriki of the Shinju when she ate the fruit? WindStar7125 (talk) 19:04, June 10, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125
 * Based on the mural that was shown a while back, she's never actually changed appearance at all. She may have gained the Byakugan and forehead Rinnegan when she ate the fruit, but her overall appearance has stayed the same from what we know. Atrix471 (talk) 19:05, June 10, 2014 (UTC)

Well, she hasn't exactly gone through a Sage Transformation like Hagoromo, Madara, Obito and Naruto (unlike them, she hasn't been shown to use Truth-Seeking Balls), but Omni and I agree that she was a pseudo-jinchuuriki like Sora and KinGin. So I think that her being a pseudo-jinchuuriki and now a jinchuuriki should be mentioned somewhere. WindStar7125 (talk) 19:09, June 10, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125
 * I'm sure it's mentioned. Also the Rinnegan wouldn't count for a jinchuuriki form, since such a transformation is temporary while the eye seems permanent, like really a part of her--Elveonora (talk) 19:14, June 10, 2014 (UTC)

Her being a pseudo-jinchuuriki and jinchuuriki isn't mentioned, nor is there a picture for it. WindStar7125 (talk) 19:18, June 10, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125
 * This begs the question, why do we show Hagoromo under "Sage Transformation" when there's no indication he changed after absorbing Ten-Tails either? We only see him from behind, but at the very least he had his outfit and shakujo both before and after being its jinchuriki.--BeyondRed (talk) 19:20, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not sure why can't people put two and two together regarding Hagoromo. Gyuki recognized both of Obito's jinchuuriki forms, therefore in my opinion the horns, skin and all obviously is his jinchuuriki form. The articles claim that he inherited the horns from his mother, but when the panel of him and brother being toddlers with Kaguya kneeling over is shown, there do not appear to be any horns present on their tiny heads.--Elveonora (talk) 19:25, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * For that I would have to argue that as toddlers/infants it is highly likely that their horns would not have grown enough to be visible. I'm also uncertain about this one, but I'm pretty sure you can see horns on Hamura (may just be his hair though) so how would you explain his horns? Atrix471 (talk) 19:40, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm 10000% positive that Hamura's "horns" are just his hair--Elveonora (talk) 19:48, June 10, 2014 (UTC)

Hagoromo's Jinchuuriki Form
I'm not sure Hagoromo's appearance should be listed as a Jinchuuriki form. If anything, that was his normal appearance, as he inherited chakra from Kaguya. Was it stated that it was indeed his Jinchuuriki form, or was that an assumption? Diamonddeath (talk) 23:20, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Latest chapter confirmed that to be his "human" form--Elveonora (talk) 23:24, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya
We def should list the Rabbiju form here, regardless if you wanna call her a jinchūriki or not, she has the Bijū inside her via Madz body, and that Rabbit Transformation is a deformed Jūbi apparition being made up of the other beasts.--RexGodwin (talk) 03:38, August 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * There's no Madara's body anymore. There's only Kaguya with 9 Tailed Beasts in her--Elveonora (talk) 13:49, August 10, 2014 (UTC)

TT Tailed Beast Mode/TT "final form"
I would like opinions on this. We assumed that the tree Obito made was his Tailed Beast Mode and the Ten-Tails' final form, but I think we assumed wrong, because:
 * The tree was called Shinju, not Jubi
 * Tailed Beast Mode equals the jinchuuriki transforming into his/her Tailed Beast, but Obito didn't turn into the tree
 * The final form of the Ten-Tails would be what it appeared like before Hagoromo and Hamura sealed it, but they weren't shown fighting a tree--Elveonora (talk) 11:40, September 1, 2014 (UTC)


 * Not that you'd care but.
 * Just a name at this point. He was the Ten-Tails jinchuriki and he made that tree, which was stated to be an extension of his own body.
 * The name "Tailed Beast Mode" used here was simply done to fit the nature of other jinchuriki forms. If you would like to just call it "Final Tree Form" or something equally lame, go right a head.
 * I've said plenty of times I really, but I really think the only thing consistent about the Ten-Tails is the eye. We've seen that thing as a giant blob, an emaciated horror, a hulking horror and a spiky blob horror. I still believe the Ten-Tails can take any damn form it wants.
 * Opinion. I'm sure it won't matter in the end so I suggest you just make your changes.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 12:51, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

"Final form" would suggest that the Ten-Tails assumed that form in the past, except we were shown it as a monster, not a tree, when it fought Hagoromo and Hamura.--Elveonora (talk) 12:54, September 1, 2014 (UTC)


 * I don't care what you call it. You can change it into "Happy Tree Fun Time" for all it really matters if the word "Final" burns your retinas.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 12:56, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

But are we sure "Shinju" is just a name at this point? Even though it incarnated into Kaguya, that doesn't mean there's no "Shinju" in the Ten-Tails.--Elveonora (talk) 13:06, September 1, 2014 (UTC)


 * Then shit, now you care about the Shinju part of the Ten-Tails. Just pick something or keep it as it is.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 13:12, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

@Elveo: And I know a lot of sentences in my statement are redundant, but it is for you to see my point. -- WindStar7125   04:51, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * So? Yes, it was called the Shinju, but at that time, everyone thought that the Shinju and the Ten-Tails were one and the same, which was proven to be not entirely true. When Gyuki referred to the summoning as the "Juubi's final form," it was rather an advanced form for the replica of the TT. And "final form" isn't the correct terminology in this case, that was an extension, like @TheUltimate3 said. At the time Gyuki made its statement, the TT was assumed to be the incarnation of the original Shinju, and not the fusion of the original Shinju and Kaguya.
 * Obito did use Tailed Beast Mode to transform into a replica TT. On the second to last page on chapter 645. Then the replica took its tree form. It's a step-by-step process, of course Obito didn't skip steps and go transform into the tree. Then Obito emerged and co-existed with the TT's tree form. Instead of the TT replica being a transformation, it was an extension due to Obito co-existing with the tree form of the TT. This isn't the first time that a TBM has acted as an extension rather than a full-blown transformation. Remember when Gaara brought forth Shukaku in chapters 134-135? Like Obito, he summoned the replica, making it look like a transformation, then emerged from it and co-existed with the replica on the battlefield (Naruto even punched Gaara), proving the summoning was an extension.
 * Both extensions/forms Gaara and Obito took were referred to as their "final forms." Hagoromo and Hamura weren't shown fighting the tree form probably because the tree form was an extension of the TT. Do you forget that the recreated tree Obito summoned briefly co-existed with the real Ten-Tails Madara revived and sealed within himself? The real TT Madara summoned (that battled the Ōtsutsuki brothers) didn't transform into the tree form either, because the tree form was already there as an extension. When Madara revived the TT, just before it was sealed within him, there was the real TT (which contained the original Shinju and Kaguya) and the replica that Obito summoned which took the form of a tree. The tree Obito summoned isn't the original Shinju simply because that replica co-existed with the TT Madara revived. Basically, what happened was this: Just before Madara became a jinchuuriki, the replica Obito summoned, and the original Shinju & Kaguya (both fused as the real TT Madara revived) all co-existed at the same time.
 * About your second point, the first page of 646 seems to show Obito coexisting with the Ten-Tails itself, not just the "Shinju" that grew out of it. The way you explained it would have made a lot more sense though.--BeyondRed (talk) 05:03, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Exactly my point. Obito coexisted with the replica of the TT (making this an extension), like your conjecture says. Then the replica of the TT took the form of a tree. And yes, the way I explained it does makes sense. I was confused on the Shinju thing but it makes sense now. -- WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 05:23, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

All of that doesn't make the replica "not the Shinju" though.--Elveonora (talk) 13:54, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * No. The replica isn't the Shinju. That's my point. It is an extension of the Ten-Tails. I'll say it again: That replica tree Obito summoned briefly co-existed with the revived TT Madara had summoned (which was composed of the original Shinju and Kaguya). -- WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 14:22, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * And I say it again. As you may know, the Ten-Tails isn't just Kaguya but also he Shinju. I see it that when Obito made the replica, the Shinju's presence was within it, while Kaguya's stayed in the original that was inside of Obito. When Madara absorbed the tree, Kaguya and Shinju again occupied the same body.--Elveonora (talk) 14:26, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * What proof is there of Kaguya and the Shinju separating when Obito used his TBM? The Shinju occupied the TBM and Kaguya stayed inside Obito? That's not what happened. Kaguya and the Shinju were in the same body when Madara revived the TT. The replica was an extension of the actual TT. Arguably, it was Kaguya's presence in the replica, the voice inside it was the one that told Madara to absorb it. -- WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 14:30, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * The thing is that there may have been two different voices. The one which said: "the time when all shall become one has come" was obviously Kaguya, but the one before it tempting Madara to absorb the tree seemed different, that's my point.--Elveonora (talk) 14:36, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know if you heard the voice or anything, but Kaguya and the Shinju never separated when Obito used his TBM. He created an extension/replica of the TT that took the form of a tree. That tree had the Rinnegan. The original Shinju doesn't. -- WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 14:39, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

According to Seelentau, the voice telling Madara to absorb the tree uses Katakana only.--Elveonora (talk) 14:59, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Really? How interesting. And according to Seelentau, the tree Obito summoned isn't the Shinju, it is a form the TT can assume, an extension of it to be specific. We're not talking about voices, it's about the form Obito summoned. The Shinju doesn't have the TT's Rinnegan, but the replica does. -- WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 15:38, September 6, 2014 (UTC)


 * That is interesting indeed. We know Madara was manipulated by Black Zetsu who was setting the stage for Kaguya's revival. Hey! I have a question! Guess which of the two Zetsu (black and white) spoke only katakana. I'll leave you to fill in the blanks. Since the Ten-Tails is a manifestation of Kaguya's will (as is BZ) isn't it entirely possible that the voice speaking in katakana is actually Black Zetsu? Since we know Kaguya does not from her speaking roles in the chapters where she was actually present. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 15:44, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

So the voice in the tree could be Kaguya's will, rather than herself. Interesting. But Foxie, I want your opinion on this, do you agree with @Elveo, or what @TU3 and I are trying to explain? The form Obito summoned was an extension of the TT, not the original Shinju, since it doesn't have a Rinnegan, and because that thing Obito summoned briefly coexisted with the real TT Madara summoned (which consists of the original Shinju and Kaguya). -- WindStar7125   15:50, September 6, 2014 (UTC)


 * The original Shinju was shown twice: once in Madara's mural flashback and in its full form when Hagoromo was speaking to Naruto. The tree Obito summoned and the actual Shinju are vastly different in appearance; lacking the Rinnegan and the flower at the top of the tree. The original Shinju, shown in both depictions, looks like a big ass version of a normal tree, whereas the Shinju copy Obito summoned looks like a giant lotus flower. Not to mention, when Obito summoned the Shinju, he first summoned the Ten-Tails in its final form, had it plant its "head roots" into the ground, which caused the flower-version of the tree to bloom. My personal opinion is that Obito pulled a Gaara and created a replica of the Ten-Tails while keeping the actual beast within himself (this is proven, btw, when Naruto pulled out the chakra of the tailed beasts from Obito, rather than the tree). Either way, though, it is a Tailed Beast Mode because Obito first manifested the Ten-Tails' beast form and then transformed it into the tree from there. That isn't debatable. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 15:54, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you! I said the exact same thing, and I compared what Obito did to Gaara! -- WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 15:56, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not arguing that. Is there any contrary evidence for the Shinju's presence having been in the replica/extension/mode whatever? I don't think so. I don't argue how it was created, but if Shinju's mind embodied the tree part--Elveonora (talk) 16:19, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * How? The thing Obito created was another form/extension of the TT. Not the original Shinju. Where is the proof that the Shinju's mind embodied the tree part? -- WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 16:22, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Where's the proof it didn't? That's why I brought up the voices. If there were two different ones, then one may have been of the Shinju. Black Zetsu wasn't inside of Madara nor in the tree at the time--Elveonora (talk) 16:25, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Now you're just throwing another question at me. You didn't bring up a page number, chapter, nothing. So according to you, the Shinju can speak and that's why the replica Obito summoned is the real Shinju? -- WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 16:28, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Yes. If the tree was speaking differently than the voice later, which was Kaguya's, then that's enough evidence that there was a mind inside of it. Also when the second sentence is spoken, the tree's eye is shown, meaning it was speaking to Madara, not Black Zetsu--Elveonora (talk) 16:36, September 6, 2014 (UTC)


 * The Shinju can't speak. Whether the voice was Black Zetsu (explaining the katakana-only speech) manipulating Madara to absorb the tree so that he could revive his "mother", or Kaguya herself, the Shinju is a tree that has shown no signs of sentience. It is Kaguya's will that made it into the Ten-Tails and her will that acts as the "brain", if you will, of the Ten-Tails. Furthermore, the voice that told Madara to absorb the tree was speaking about the tree. Unless you really think the tree talks about itself in third person, which would be stupid on a level I can't even begin to comprehend. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 16:40, September 6, 2014 (UTC)


 * Edit: To drive that point home. The voice that Elve is speaking about refers to the tree as an outside force. It commands Madara to "take in the holy tree". If that were the tree itself speaking, then wouldn't it be instead saying "take me in" rather than speaking about itself from the point of view of an outsider? That suggests the voice is actually coming from within Madara (where the Ten-Tails is), commanding him to go to the tree and absorb it, which he did. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 16:46, September 6, 2014 (UTC)


 * ... So according to @Elveo, the Shinju can speak. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. We know that the "mind" inside the TT is Kaguya. It wants to take all the chakra it can get. Kaguya's will (BZ) uses katakana, and so does the "mind" in the tree Obito summoned (which, absorbed chakra from the Allied Shinobi Forces). So the tree Obito summoned uses katakana like Kaguya's will (BZ), and that tree wants to absorb the most chakra like Kaguya/TT, and from that you get the mind of the tree is the Shinju?! (An entity that is devoid of feelings?). It seems the mind inside the recreated tree is the same mind in the TT. It also seems like Kaguya is the voice in the recreated tree rather than the Shinju, which makes a whole lot more sense, given the pieces of information I just put together. -- WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 16:49, September 6, 2014 (UTC)


 * "The Shinju can't speak" says who?
 * Madara would recognize Black Zetsu's voice I'm sure and wouldn't ask who is it
 * The voice actually at first speaks in first person, only then changes to third
 * If both instances were Kaguya, why would it originally be written in Katakana only but later proper?
 * The tree's eye was shown in the panel it spoke about itself in 3rd person, meaning the voice came from the tree
 * So a tree speaking about itself in 3rd person is stupid, but a woman speaking about herself in 3rd person isn't, good...--Elveonora (talk) 16:51, September 6, 2014 (UTC)


 * Read again, Windstar ^ The voice is not coming from within the tree at all, because it refers to the tree as an outside force. It commands Madara to take in the holy tree, which not only is a third person view point of the Shinju (which means that it can't be the Shinju, because it isn't referring to itself), but also refers to the Shinju as being outside of them, which wouldn't be possible if the voice were outside. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 16:53, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

@Foxie, except it at first says "take me in" only then changes into third person in second sentence.--Elveonora (talk) 16:58, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Foxie, I didn't read your comment due to an edit conflict. Regardless of the voice, to answer the topic, the tree Obito summoned is a TBM, and serves as an extension of the TT. It is not the real Shinju. The real Shinju does not have a Rinnegan. -- WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 16:59, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * It had Rinnegan because it was created from the Ten-Tails' body. The real Shinju's body (the original tree) most likely no longer exists.--Elveonora (talk) 17:01, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * What Obito created from the TT's body was another form of the TT, that served as an extension. -- WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 17:04, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, so? Doesn't mean the Shinju didn't occupy that part--Elveonora (talk) 17:05, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's the point. The thing Obito summoned wasn't the original Shinju Hagoromo showed to Naruto, it was another form of the Ten-Tails that was simply called the Shinju because it was assumed the Shinju and the TT were the same entity, and Kaguya's inclusion in the TT wasn't discovered. -- WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 17:13, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

... that still doesn't mean it wasn't the Shinju's presence speaking in the recreated form.--Elveonora (talk) 17:18, September 6, 2014 (UTC)


 * And you can't prove that it was, so drop it until you can. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 17:20, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

The TT is made up of both the Shinju and Kaguya. The tree Obito created used the TT body as a base, which means it had elements of both Kaguya and the Shinju, which therefore means it must be a form of the TT. It cannot be the Shinju unless the Kaguya elements aren't present. --Atrix471 (talk) 17:21, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Foxie, I suppose you are right. We will see what the anime will do about that one. @Atrix, I know that, all I argue about is if the voice which tempted Madara to absorb the tree was of the Shinju part.--Elveonora (talk) 17:25, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

You're probably the only one on this wiki that believes the Shinju can speak. Like @Foxie said, you can't prove it was the Shinju speaking at all. The Shinju is an impartial entity. Kaguya's will uses katakana. The tree that spoke to Madara uses katakana. The tree absorbed chakra on sight when summoned by Obito, just like Kaguya wanted all the chakra in the world. It looks like Kaguya's will was trying to absorb the chakra when Obito summoned it. Somehow, you get that it was the Shinju's will and voice speaking to Madara. -- WindStar7125   17:31, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not to mention the voice also refers to the Ten-Tails: "Absorb the holy tree which is the Ten-Tails". So no. The damn tree cannot talk. Kaguya can talk. Her will (BZ) can talk. The freaking tree cannot say a word. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 17:33, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * ^This. The fact that the tree Obito summoned was explicitly stated to be the actual Ten-Tails by the voice that was speaking to Madara in chapter 673 (where @Fox-boss got the above quote from), after the Shinju was shown to be an entirely different tree by Hagoromo in chapter 670 should prove the thing Obito summoned was an extension/another form of the Ten-Tails. -- WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 17:55, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Whatever, you are free to think whatever you think.--Elveonora (talk) 18:00, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, and so are you.-- WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 18:05, September 6, 2014 (UTC)