Talk:Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki

Status
I believe I once brought a forum topic about this. In my opinion, we should reconsider what means to be dead within Narutoverse and we shouldn't use real-world logic and rules to determine life/death in fiction. In my opinion:
 * a dead person/creature = has gone to the pure land
 * still in the impure land = not dead

Lets take Orochimaru as an example. We concluded him as deceased, but that was before the whole Curse Mark reveal. Technically, he never died, as his soul didn't go to the pure land to our knowledge. He only ceased to exist for a while in physical form, but his soul and consciousness remained.

So I ask, is Hagoromo really "dead" ? He is now some interdimensional timeless entity... I would even dare to say a god.--Elveonora (talk) 11:11, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

Well, this is all logical and nice, but the only problem that characters in the manga themselves deny this logic (Hagoromo included) by constantly referring to themselves as "dead" if their body is gone. Even Oro was referred more than once as "killed". So how about that?Faust-RSI (talk) 11:21, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Orochimaru and Hagoromo are "special cases" that's why I'm discussing it in regards to them. Even in Narutoverse, the souls in the pure land appear to have no consciousness, since brain is required for that. I suspect that once the consciousness is gone, there's nothing to hold the soul in the impure land. But these two continue to have consciousness even without a form and as such their souls haven't gone to the pure land, meaning they are alive.

Unless you consider someone crawling out of a neck as dead.--Elveonora (talk) 11:44, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

I don't consider them dead, I don't even consider Edo Tensei's dead, calling them "zombies" is ridiculous on Kishi's side, as they are nothing like zombies. My problem is with the direct statements in the manga that say these particular characters are dead, regardless of how illogical it is. Are we going to just ignore them?Faust-RSI (talk) 11:49, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's because commonly demise of the brain in Narutoverse also equals death. It's 99% true, save for these two. They continue to: have thoughts, senses, awareness and be capable of actions, that's quite alive in my book.--Elveonora (talk) 11:57, March 27, 2014 (UTC)


 * Dead. As dead as dead can get. If his spirit or chakra wants to float around ignoring space and time, fantastic. But he's still dead. The same can't even be used with Orochimaru actually, because Orochimaru was sealed, not killed. Permenant it may have been, Itachi didn't actually kill him, just left him in a state where he might as well been. But yeah, the Sage is dead. Very dead.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:32, March 27, 2014 (UTC)


 * I get what you're saying, but I think if a character specifically refers to themselves as dead, then that's clearly the author saying they're dead. The thing that gets weird is that he also referred to himself as living chakra. I think if we're going to be accurate with these cases we need can't really call them "Alive" or "Dead", as neither accurately describes their status.--Soul reaper (talk) 12:39, March 27, 2014 (UTC)


 * Except the status field isn't for some weird metaphysical thing. Because that would be like saying because Naruto is Asura reincarnated, that Asura is not dead because he is also Naruto. Like I said, the Sage's spirit may have lived on as living chakra, but the man is still dead.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:00, March 27, 2014 (UTC)


 * Reincarnation is fairly different. The Sage himself described his state as living chakra. A description also given to the tailed beasts. I think Elveonora makes a good point when he says we shouldn't apply real world logic to such matters.--Soul reaper (talk) 13:36, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not even implying real world logic. Because otherwise I wouldn't even entertain this discussion. I'm saying, as he even stated, that his life ended. Life ending equals dead. If he lived on as a phantom of living chakra, great job. But he's still dead.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 13:39, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

@Ultimate, I didn't refer to Itachi's sealing of Orochimaru (which didn't happen anyway) but Sasuke's murder of Orochimaru and then the latter after his death crawling out from Sasuke's neck. And death indeed equals demise of physical form, well, unless you are Orochimaru or Hagoromo, that's what I'm saying. Even in Narutoverse consciousness gets lost once the brain dies and the soul then goes to the pure land. Didn't happen with Orochimaru tho, meaning he cheats death--Elveonora (talk) 13:56, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * I believe his status at this moment is as same as Minato from Pain's fight and Kushina form Kurama's fight. All those cases have the same situation that Naruto has about to die several times. — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 14:55, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Weren't chakra Minato and Kushina something akin to Shadow Clones sealed with fuuinjutsu? This is kinda different, as those vanished once the task was over for them.--Elveonora (talk) 19:37, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * They were chakra, but nothing indicated they worked like shadow clones. Their disappearance was nothing like it. They seemed more like quasi-applications of the original ninshū, the whole understanding each others' feelings, but leaving actual chakra behind. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:40, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

Prince
Since his mom was a princess, doesn't that make him one? Not sure how these things work.--Elveonora (talk) 12:14, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * I was wondering the same thing. XD ~IndxcvNovelist (talk 12:16, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

Bump--Elveonora (talk) 12:05, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

Sharingan
I'm just going to go ahead and broach this topic. His mother had a Sharingan. His son had a Sharingan. We now know the Rinnegan is the final evolution of the Sharingan with the addition of the Sage's chakra. Logical conclusion: Hagoromo had a Sharingan. Thoughts? ~ Ten Tailed Fox 07:09, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Despite that he didn't mention it, but I couldn't agree more. — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 07:29, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Despite agreeing with your reasoning, I don't think there's any need to put the Sharingan in the Sage's infobox. Mainly because Hagoromo always used the Rinnegan, which we count as a different dōjutsu from the Sharingan, the Mangekyō Sharingan and the Byakugan.--JOA20 (talk) 07:32, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * That makes no sense whatsoever. Firstly, you have no idea how often (or not) Hagoromo used the Sharingan. Secondly, how is it a different dōjutsu? Its the final form of the Sharingan. We now know how it works. The Sharingan evolves into the Rinnegan when the Sage's chakra is within the user's body. And thirdly, we don't list things by how often they're used. We list things based on whether or not people have them. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 07:42, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * I actually have no problem with adding the Sharingan as Hagoromo's kekkei genkai. But if that were the case, should we add Mangekyō Sharingan as well?--JOA20 (talk) 07:45, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * The Rinnegan is described as specifically being the power of Hagoromo's chakra in his explanation, which is brought about by combining the chakras of Asura and Indra in a single host. This could indicate that Hagoromo was simply born with the Rinnegan, which I believe is how the situation was explained in previous accounts, which would mean that he never had a Sharingan. Likewise, it seems to me that if Hashirama had obtained Indra's chakra instead, he probably would have still obtained the Rinnegan without ever having had a Sharingan. There's also the fact that we still don't know where the Byakugan and Sharingan came from -- it's possible that they were obtained along with the power of Chakra. Given that their primary functions include the ability to observe chakra, it seems strange that they would have existed prior to mankind acquiring the power of the Divine Tree. Plus, her Sharingan is a third eye, which is just weird. Considering that Obito and Madara both obtained horns when becoming the Ten Tails' Jinchuriki, I can't help but think that these weird physical mutations are a result of the Divine Tree's chakra, not pre-existing genetic conditions. Unless Kaguya was an alien... Hrmm. At any rate, I feel like there are currently too many other possible explanations to just assume that Madara going from Mangekyō Sharingan to Rinnegan means that the Rinnegan can only evolve from a Mangekyō Sharingan. FF-Suzaku (talk) 10:12, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya's sharingan seems to be the final form rather than the rinnegan MangekyoSasuke (talk) 07:47, April 2, 2014 (UTC)


 * From what I understand, the Sage never had the Sharingan. Previous accounts state he was born with the Rinnegan, natural evolution of the Sharingan it may be, but if he was born with the Rinnegan he never had the Sharingan.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:19, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

For reasons I already state in similar on-going discussions, that were likewise already stated by others here, I disagree with listing Hagoromo as a Sharingan user. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:33, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Do you guys remember a while back when the sage was first shown, his silouette had Kaguya/Shinju's eyes, right after he became a jinchuuriki? MangekyoSasuke (talk) 19:27, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

NopeUmishiru (talk) 19:40, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * I meant when Obito spoke about him. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 19:42, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Nope, can't even see his facial features let alone his eyesUmishiru (talk) 20:25, April 2, 2014 (UTC)


 * @Ultimate: The details of his birth weren't even touched upon until last chapter. He was only stated to have the Rinnegan. Not that he was born with it. Logic dictates that if his mother has it, his son has it, and it is genetically proven to be the final form of the Sharingan, then he had the Sharingan. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 22:21, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Logical people would agree with you, but unless it's spoon fed to them directly, the majority of editors will say no.--Reliops (talk) 18:09, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

Hagoromo's Hair Color
Hagoromo's hair color is grayish red: http://i.imgur.com/10qf5No.png The tone color variation yields red: http://i.imgur.com/Fkoeluq.png It is Grayish Red and should be updated on the appearance description Celebrei (talk) 11:14, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Yup, his hair is red. Perhaps used to be a more lively red when he was younger. I'm more worried about his skin tho, dude must not have been sunbathing like since ever lol. No wonder since he flies in some multi-dimensional timeless space for centuries.--Elveonora (talk) 12:21, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

His current hair color IS Grayish-Pink. There's No confirmation that his hair was red before. So, you should put his hair color the way "it is". Not just from some speculations. The color variation tone your provided is also pink tone, which of course consist some red, but they are not actually red (Not red like Kushina or Mito Uzumaki), unless you're color-blind. If you look at Mito Uzumaki's hair color when she was very old, you'll see that her red hair is dull-red or grayish-red, unlike current SOT6P's hair color which is grayish-pink. Use the front color page, where he's with Naruto, and ask some strangers what hair color does SOT6P have, they'd say grayish-pink, not red.

C'mon people, it's not rocket science to put your thoughts in an orderly way, and respecting the chronology of the topic. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:07, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

On the cover of Chapter 671 looks something like brown.—Entondark (talk) 23:30, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

No, it's Grayish Red/Desaturated Red, the desaturation/loss of vivacity is caused by senility, but Hagoromo's hair is definitely red: http://i.imgur.com/eZk1u9q.jpg This is pink :(which is different from red) http://i.imgur.com/gHStH55.png Celebrei (talk) 00:46, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

Do you really have to use Color Hexa to determine the color that is Obviously shown there? The picture it's obvious that it's grayish pink, not red to normal people eyes. OK, fine here's another example from color hexa. http://i.imgur.com/EygAHdj.jpg. I doubt his hair color was red before, because look at Mito Uzumaki's hair color when she's very old, her hair was dull/brownish red, not as light (grayish pink) as current Hagoromo's hair.

No sir, it is red: http://i.imgur.com/8wZPZDC.jpg And this is reinforced by the second official colored page of 671: http://i.imgur.com/9cOnkOW.jpg Just like Mito in the anime, it is grayish/desaturated red. The primary color is red, the desaturation of the hair color is caused by senility, but the primary color is definitely red for both Mito and Hagoromo. Celebrei (talk) 04:29, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

Asura and Indra Ōtsutsuki
Why was the last name removed from Asura and Indra? They are their father's son. They should have their last name. Steveo920, 15:48, April 2, 2014
 * Because that wasn't confirmed. Seelentau 愛議 20:53, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Really, we need something as simple as that to be spoon fed to us? It's the same idiocy as with Tsunade. We know she is a Senju. Madara kept hammering about it. Yet her article isn't properly named.--Reliops (talk) 01:21, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Though I wouldn't use the term "idiocy", I agree. Not going to change other's mindsets, but nevertheless, I agree. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:26, April 22, 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree too, in the case that this is put to a vote. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 02:41, April 22, 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree as well and i highly doubt Hagoromo would refer to his sons using their last name (Kuroiraikou (talk) 03:37, April 22, 2014 (UTC))

Then we are in agreement?--Reliops (talk) 12:04, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Nope. They weren't named that, so they stay without the surname. What if Indora was called Uchiha because of reasons? • Seelentau 愛議 12:23, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

If that were the case then the manga would have said so. What parent refers to their immediate children by their full name? Given how Hagoromo took on his mother surname, why wouldn't his children. Also, considering the fact they were both candidates to be his successors, that would indicate they would have taken his surname.--Reliops (talk) 17:16, April 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Still, it wasn't confirmed. Is it really that big a deal? Each of them is known to be Hagoromo's son, so no need to put an Ōtsutsuki after their first names to show that they are the Sage's sons.--JOA20 (talk) 17:22, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

Skin Color
Should it be added to the Appearence section that his skin color is pale blue-ish? Or wathever that color is? --RIkudo (talk) 02:50, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Call it pale. Just one colour back and forth tug of war for him is enough. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:52, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

Marking or third eye?
I was wondering, is the thing on Hagoromo's forehead really a marking, or is it possible that it's a third eye? After all, it looks the same as his mother's when it's open. Bloodytom (talk) 06:23, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's a marking. Seelentau 愛議 08:03, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

How do you know that for a fact? It looks to me like he has a third eye like this mother had.--Reliops (talk) 21:24, April 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because it was never ever indicated to be anything else than a marking. • Seelentau 愛議 21:28, April 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Definitely a marking, like undoubtedly. It's drawn on his forehead, not sticking in and out like an eye--Elveonora (talk) 13:09, April 19, 2014 (UTC)

Senjutsu of six paths
Hi, I am new and I am curious what Madara meant by mentioning it when Naruto's back in new mode was shown. Could "Senjutsu of six paths" be reffering to Hagoromo's Senjutsu, original most powerfull Senjutsu ?.... It could be invented by Hagoromo when he found out Ten tails is made of nature energy.

Could it mean that Hagoromo was also Senjutsu' user..., the wielder of Original Senjutsu which was later taught by Toad, Snake and Slug are Sage's personal summons. Maybe it could also explain why Toad Sage mode, Slug Sage mode and Snake Sage mode have most of the common abilities with few unique, which would be result of Hagoromo's Ultimate Senjutsu being adapted by different animals which changed it to fit their tastes and use. I mean Toad Sage mode is known of great physcial strength/durability of the body, Snake Sage mode is known of Speed and agility and Slug Sage mode would be known by healing/regenerative powers.

What do you think ?

--TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki (talk) 21:41, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Senjutsu is basically using of senjutsu chakra, which is based on natural energy. Now, Juubi is a mass of natural energy, and it was sealed inside Hagoromo. You figure the rest.Faust-RSI (talk)

No offense, but I think people went full retard with the "senjutsu of six paths" I'd like it gone from Naruto's article too and so on. Basically, all it means is "senjutsu of sage of the six paths" shortened or even more directly, Hagoromo's Senjutsu--Elveonora (talk) 09:05, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

Exactly, This is what I meant. Hagoromo Ootsutsuki should be also listed as Senjutsu user. Besides Senjusu of six paths is shortcut to the Senjutsu of Sage of six paths, which clearly imply Hagoromo as Senjutsu user. Besides if you take carefull look at Naruto's performance in the lastest chapter then clearly not just his physical strentgh/durabiltiy of the body increased which is main trait of the Toad Sage mode but also his speed/agility(Snake Sage mode's trait) and also healing/regeneration powers(Hashirama's/Slug Sage mode's trait) also get increased, which clearly indicate Hagoromo was not just Senjutsu user but also user of Ultimate Senjutsu which was later derivered into animal Sage modes: Toad, Snake, Slug. --TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki (talk) 09:11, April 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * He with no doubt is?/was a Senjutsu user, it's hardly refutable at this point. The reason why I reverted your edit was because speculation and grammar, sorry.--Elveonora (talk) 09:15, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

Ok, I apologize for my grammar and I didn't want to create mess here ;/. Anyway while you are complete right about speculation of Toad, Snake and Slug sage modes derivered from the Senjutsu of six paths, I don't see reason why should't you list Hagoromo as Senjutsu user, please explain it to me. Clearly the way to harm Ten tails is use of Sage chakra and Hagoromo fought it. Another point is that Naruto just recived power from Hagoromo and Madara called it Senjtusu of six paths, while it also was proven that Naruto has not more pigmentation around his eyes, just like Sage of six paths.

Tell me why am I wrong ? --TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki (talk) 09:24, April 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * If it were on me alone, he would be listed as a user by now. Just wait for feedback of others first--Elveonora (talk) 09:30, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

Ok, then I will wait for feedback of others ;), thanks for fast response --TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki (talk) 09:33, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

Until we learn that Hagoromo's appearance is due to a permanent Sage Mode, I'm against him being listed as Sage Mode user. This is why I'm hating these latest chapters, they're taking everything we know and tap-dancing on top of it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:21, April 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think Hagoromo is even using Sage Mode. Something tells me his chakra just happens to be Senjutsu--Elveonora (talk) 14:44, April 21, 2014 (UTC)

We now know of
Another person besides Gaara who has retained his jinchuuriki powers, it should be noted.--Elveonora (talk) 21:00, April 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Since a jinchūriki dies when a tailed beast is extracted, why do we assume that they would lose these abilities in the first place? --Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 00:03, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Good point. The answer is, dunno, we just assume, because logic has it that if you remove the source of x, subject should not be able to use x any longer or something. Perhaps it's no oddity, but basic stuff for a jinchuuriki to keep his/her Biju powers, the thing is, there haven't been many to told us after the beast was extracted, so... but we mention this in Gaara's case, so for the sake of consistency I suppose.

Also may you please check his abilities section? I see something wrong with it... to be more exact, why does "Ninshu" section talk about Fuuinjutsu, Chibaku Tensei and the Moon, how is that relevant to it? Also him being a Senjutsu user is yet to be mentioned anywhere--Elveonora (talk) 12:04, April 20, 2014 (UTC)

Senjutsu of the Six Paths 2
(I know there is a similarly named discussion but this isn't entirely the same) Naruto was stated to have obtained the Senjutsu of the Six Paths (六道の仙術, Rikudō no Senjutsu), and that its just Hagoromo's Senjutsu. But from my perspective it seems more like it is its own independent thing. Like how the Six Paths Technique is its own thing. The term Six Paths isn't exclusive to Hagoromo and the name Sage of Six Paths is derived from the Six Paths Technique, which was apparently his namesake. But there are other users of the Six Paths Technique now, he was just the originally. Senjutsu of the Six Paths is probably as equally dependent from Hagoromo. Just because Hagoromo had it, doesn't mean it is uniquely his Senjutsu just because of its name. It obviously isn't something that is solely unique to him. Skarrj (talk) 19:25, April 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * My interpretation of Rikudou Senjutsu is Hagoromo's Senjutsu, nothing else. Just like "second six paths" means "second Hagoromo" or so.--Elveonora (talk) 09:11, April 27, 2014 (UTC)

Prophecy
According to the manga, Gamamaru was the one that told the tailed beasts about Naruto, NOT Hagoromo, am I right? WindStar7125 (talk) 23:31, May 2, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125
 * No, Gamamru told Hagoromo who in turn told the beasts. • Seelentau 愛議 23:40, May 2, 2014 (UTC)

Oh, OK. My bad. WindStar7125 (talk) 00:23, May 3, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125

Nine Tailed Beasts Jinchūriki
The Sage of the Six Paths is the first Jinchūriki of the nine tailed beasts from the anime when Kurama remembered when hagoromo told them :"I don't have long any more. Shukaku, Matatabi, Isobu, Son Gokū, Kokuō, Saiken, Chōmei, Gyūki, Kurama. Even though you have been separated, you shall always be together. Until eventually that time shall come when you will become one… You each carry a name… And with a different shape than you had up to now, you will be shown a righteous path, different from the time you spent inside of me. What is true power… …Until that time…"

and told them that unlike when they were inside of him they will be token throught different paths and they must know what true strength is.

I guess That is a prouf that Hagoromo was the Jinchūriki of each tailed beast So I suggest you add to Tailed Beast : Shukaku, Matatabi, Isobu, Son Gokū, Kokuō, Saiken, Chōmei, Gyūki, Kurama, Shinju. Asesino04 (talk) 19:07, May 20, 2014 (UTC)Asesino04
 * Watch episode #205 again to see the reason. — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 19:16, May 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * "...And with a different shape than you had up to now, you will be shown a righteous path, different from the time you spent inside of me..." This statement is referring to the fact they once held the cumulative shape of the Ten Tails. He used the 'Creation of All Things' technique to split the Ten Tails into the Nine Tailed Beasts. Atrix471 (talk) 00:42, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

thrid eyes confirmed ?
the new pics of Hagoromo is clearly showing a colored third eyes like his mom, so does that make it official that he has a third eyes ? --Tchad1 (talk) 06:55, June 11, 2014 (UTC)

No. He was shown having that "3rd eye" when he was mentioned by name several chapters ago. --Questionaredude (talk) 06:58, June 11, 2014 (UTC)

Hagoromo's "third eye" is still clearly a marking. The eye isn't even shaped like Madara's or Kaguya's. &#34;Demons run when a good man goes to war.&#34; (talk) 07:51, June 11, 2014 (UTC)

How is it 'clearly' a marking? It's a different color. Sure, we've got no evidence stating it isn't a marking, but neither have we evidence claiming it is just a marking. Consider this; his horns arent' like his mother's either, but he has those. His Rinnegan aren't like his mother's, but he has those too. Seeing as those with the 'eyes of samsara' seem to naturally possess a third eye (Madara, Kaguya) is it unthinkable that maybe he has the third eye as well - just a little different? Besides, in that one scene of Kaguya remembering a younger Hagoromo, it seems kind of like said third eye is looking at the viewer. I could be wrong (my eyes are not admittedly the best) but that's just how it seems to me. (Bloodytom (talk) 02:33, June 13, 2014 (UTC))
 * 1000% a marking, my sight is like totally bad as well, but even i can tell.--Elveonora (talk) 10:08, June 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * How can you tell? It's two-dimensional. It doesn't matter how good your eyes are, unless you can perceive depth where there is none, that's an insane claim to make.  If anything, there's more evidence to support that it's an actual third eye; the concept of 'those possessing the rinnegan' being able to access a third eye being the most obvious, but also, in the colored image of him, there is a slight shadow beneath it, hinting that a portion of his forehead protrudes slightly.Bloodytom (talk) 11:09, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's not an eye because whenever the Sennin was shown as a shadow, both his eyes were visible, but no third eye. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:54, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

So...appearance again.
Sooo. We get another look at younger Hagoromo, and he still looked as if he stuffed the Ten-Tails in his butt. Which brings up the question yet again, is he in that Sage Transformation form that the other Ten-Tails jinchuriki are in, or did he alway just...you know. Look like that.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 13:51, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * The latter, he always looked the way he does. You can see his brother having horns too, along with the tomoe pattern on clothes--Elveonora (talk) 14:33, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Deceased?
He seems to be popping up regularly now, which really makes me question whether or not we should have him labeled as deceased. my suggestion is for the time being changing it to unknown, as he seems to be living "outside" of normal time/reality but able to interact with it. Shadowfox337 (talk) 06:53, July 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * He's dead. While his chakra ghost or whatever seems like.he can watch over stuff, he is still dead.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 08:39, July 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * I argued the same thing, was told the same thing... I wouldn't say he is dead just yet. As I stated earlier, death in Narutoverse equals the soul leaving the impure land/world and entering the pure one. Dead is someone who can be reanimated. For all we know, the "ghost" is not just chakra but also his spirit, in which case he is "alivish"--Elveonora (talk) 10:18, July 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Death is also never reaching the pure world and ending up in the stomach of a death god. The end result is the same; if your life ends, you are dead. You may have various forms of "living" after the fact, but you are still dead.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 10:46, July 3, 2014 (UTC)

Seperate paragraph for Senjutsu of six paths
I would like to point out that currently Senjutsu of six paths described as Six paths Technique is mentioned/contained inside paragraph about Rinnegan. However these powers are different and only Madara, Hagoromo,Kaguya were known to posses both. I Would like to pull out this information and put in in new seperate paragraph called Senjutsu of six paths in abilities section. Please correct me, If I am wrong. --TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki (talk) 8:01, July 16, 2014 (UTC)

alive
Before Madara grew breasts and vagina, people ridiculed my notion of Kaguya being alive and wanted her listed as deceased at all costs. Now we have Hagoromo in material world talking. Can anyone tell me how exactly is he dead?--Elveonora (talk) 13:43, July 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * He's more of a ghost than a living being. He is incarnacted chakra, nothing more. Edo Tensi victims are more alive than him. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:45, July 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Before Madara had a Black Zex Change Operation she was unknown, with death being more likely because *@($ing seriously. Hagoromo on the other hand, is still dead. Ghost, chakra projection, Lich Lord of the Scouge, whatever he may be, doesn't change the fact that he is still very dead.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:54, July 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Now sure how floating around and talking falls into the category of being dead though. We list Orochimaru as alive, he doesn't differ from Hagoromo.--Elveonora (talk) 14:14, July 24, 2014 (UTC)

Don't get my wrong, but intent isn't to cause trouble. I just ask, because the moment Sasuke slapped Kabuto's flesh and a piece of Oro's chakra together, we didn't hesitate to list Oro alive despite being incarnated chakra or whatever. Now Hagoromo is incarnated chakra but isn't given the same treatment for one reason or another..--Elveonora (talk) 15:39, July 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * The difference is that Orochimaru was never dead. Just under a genjutsu. Iloveinoxxx (talk) 16:15, July 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Really? So he somehow made his way from the genjutsu and became one with the piece of chakra or something? In my opinion he wasn't ever trapped with Totsuka Blade, but that's another topic. The thing is, if you say he was trapped, then the Orochimaru walking around can't be the same as Itachi defeated.--Elveonora (talk) 16:19, July 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * But they are because Orochimaru split his consciousness. He is a living, breathing being made of flesh. He was literally reincarnated. Hagoromo is not, he is a chakra entity. • Seelentau 愛 議 09:03, July 25, 2014 (UTC)

Lemme get this straight...
This dicussion is closed.

So Hagoromo and Hamura fought the Ten-Tails (Kaguya) and then sealed it within Hagoromo. Then as Hagoromo was nearing his death, he separated the chakra of the Ten-Tails into the nine tailed beasts. Then he and his brother used the Yin-Yang (Sun and Moon) seal to turned the husk of the Ten-Tails (Demonic Statue of the Outer Path) into the core of the Chibaku Tensei to create the moon, correct? Because what is confusing me is when Black Zetsu said Kaguya's sons turned the Ten-Tails into the core of the Chibaku Tensei, but wasn't the Ten-Tails already its husk before being sealed into the moon? WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 04:02, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd assume the translation was a little bit off; I'm all but certain Hagoromo separated the Ten-Tails into the nine tailed beasts before sealing the statue in the Moon/Chibaku Tensei for safe keeping. Although, I was under the impression that the Yin and Yang palm seals made the sealing technique which sealed the Ten-Tails into Hagoromo, but I could be wrong. --Atrix471 (talk) 04:27, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * eh, wrong. He was alone when he created the TB and sealed the husk. His brother only helped with the first sealing years before. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:11, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * So the Ten-Tails was sealed into Hagoromo, then turned into the core of the Chibaku Tensei with the Yin-Yang seal? Huh? How about the creation of the tailed beasts and the sealing of the husk into the moon?  WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 13:18, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

You are correct WindStar. Chapter 681 says the Sun-Moon YYR was what turned her into Chibaku Tensei. The term "Gedo Mazo" (Demonic Statue) is a nickname that Madara made up, nothing more. The "statue" has always been the Ten-Tails, not a separate thing. It's just some people around here like to play stupid and purposely confuse others by not merging the articles.--Elveonora (talk) 13:45, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * And I think that's fine as it is. I don't see any difference between the statue and the Tailed Beasts. Without any of them, the Ten Tails can't be revived. But we don't go as far to merge all Tailed Beasts into one article since they were originally one, right? Or am I confusing something here?Iloveinoxxx (talk) 14:24, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except the "statue" = Ten-Tails. And the Tailed Beasts were never originally one, the chakra they have was originally one. The Tailed Beasts are as much the Ten-Tails as all living entities to whom Hagoromo spread his chakra are.--Elveonora (talk) 14:38, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Na, statue = husk of the TT. Windstar, the TT was sealed in Hagoromo, later split into body and chakra, the body was sealed by Hagoromo in the Chibaku Tensei, the chakra was divided and made into the TB via COAT. • Seelentau 愛 議 15:35, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Same thing, since the "husk" is the degraded body. It's all just semantics anyway, the important thing is that "Gedo Mazo" is just a weakened form of the Ten-Tails/Kaguya. Even Black Zetsu called Gedo Mazo as the Ten-Tails, that's why this topic exists in the first place.--Elveonora (talk) 15:54, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's not the same thing, since half of it (the chakra) is missing. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:35, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * So when Naruto is at half his chakra, he is no longer Naruto? Its form may change, but it isn't a separate entity.--Elveonora (talk) 17:36, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * ...it is no separate entity, but its body was separated from its mind, so...? • Seelentau 愛 議 17:45, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

The statue is just the Ten Tails with no chakra. That's all there is to it.--Officialkamuiblade (talk) 18:12, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Seel, when? The only thing separated was its chakra, the mind was there still. Had there been no mind, Black Zetsu wouldn't exist, because mind-less "statues" don't think, right? ;)--Elveonora (talk) 18:17, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * If there was no mind, then why didn't the statue do anything after being re-summoned? • Seelentau 愛 議 18:25, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * From the moon? No idea exactly, but it was shown in shackles. Also Kaguya doesn't seem to be very talkative, but she definitely spoke to Madara after Guy blew out his guts.--Elveonora (talk) 18:31, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

What we were told earlier: Hagoromo defeated the Ten-Tails, sealed it within himself, and near his death, separated the Ten-Tails' chakra into the nine tailed beasts, and used Chibaku Tensei to seal the husk of the TT. What we were told recently: Hagoromo and Hamura defeated the TT, sealed it within Hagoromo, and according to BZ, used the brothers used Yin-Yang seal to turn the TT into the core of the Chibaku Tensei, and created the moon. So where was Hamura when Hagoromo created the nine tailed beasts? And the husk was still inside Hagoromo for awhile, so Hamura and Hagoromo turned that into the CT core? @Elve, @Tau, mighty thanks for your contributions, but someone please connect these two seemingly contradicting stories for me. WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 20:54, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * No contradictions, Hamura was simply omitted in original version.


 * Hagoromo and Hamura fight and defeat the Ten-Tails with Hagoromo becoming the jinchuuriki
 * Hagoromo nearing his death splits the Ten-Tails' chakra and creates the Tailed Beasts using Creation of All Things technique. Then he and Hamura proceed to seal what remained of the Ten-Tails using the YYR sun-moon combo seal--Elveonora (talk) 21:01, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

K. So BZ said that the TT was turned into the CT core and the moon was made. That his mother was sealed by her own sons. And the Ten-Tails' husk was sealed in the moon. By that logic, the husk and the TT are the same thing. And the TT husk was basically Kaguya and the Shinju fused, but without enough chakra. WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 21:06, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * They are. "Gedo Mazo" is nothing but the Ten-Tails on chakra diet. The term "Gedo Mazo" didn't exist until thousands years later when Madara pulled it out of his ass.

EDIT: "Gedo Mazo" is as much a thing as Naruto is number-one unpredictable ninja, it's just a nickname, especially why it is totally idiotic to have that as a separate article, like totally idiotic--Elveonora (talk) 21:10, July 27, 2014 (UTC)


 * Not to argue about whether the articles should be merged, but Madara does seem to consider Ten-Tails and its husk as the same entity. In chapter 610, he referred to the Ten-Tails as the Mazo, despite it being in its revived form (sort of like how Orochimaru refers to Jugo's senninka as cursed seal power). Anyway, as for the Yin-Yang seal, Yin Kurama said that Hagoromo was immobilised for months after creating and scattering the tailed beasts, so there was theoretically time for him to meet with Hamura and turn the Ten-Tails' husk into the core. The alternative is that the Yin-Yang Seal turned it into the core before it was sealed in Hagoromo and its chakra was split, which isn't really implied by anything else.--BeyondRed (talk) 21:46, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not sure how some people even find it possible to argue with manga facts, of course they are the same entity. That one was cleared up, topic done. Although nothing will be done with that, because apparently some admins and staff find it less confusing for people when they are confused with incorrect information, awesome. Because lies are more person-friendly than the truth--Elveonora (talk) 22:45, July 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * The articles aren't being merged people. Such is just a figment of Elveonora's imagination. Also, Black Zetsu called the statue Gedo Mazo as well. It wasn't named by Madara anymore than Black Zetsu was Madara's will. That being said, I don't think this topic is about what the Gedo Mazo is, so kindly can it, Elve. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 23:47, July 27, 2014 (UTC)

So can we agree that changes need to be made in both Hagoromo and Hamura's articles? Because all I know is that the brothers turned the Ten-Tails into the CT core, but the husk was sealed in the moon as well (which could mean the husk was turned into the core, which means its article needs some changes also). WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 00:52, July 28, 2014 (UTC)

@Foxie, re-read the chapter where Madara explains to Obito that he nicknamed it "Gedo Mazo" BZ uses the term simply because he got that from Madara. And the topic is about it, the OP was confused that BZ said Hagoromo and Hamura had sealed the Ten-Tails into the moon, instead of having said they did Gedo Mazo, that's because Gedo Mazo = Ten-Tails, with Gedo Mazo being nothing but a nickname. Having a form of the Ten-Tails as a separately article with its name being simply a nickname is absolutely retarded, excuse my honesty.--Elveonora (talk) 12:17, July 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * So in conclusion because yes I am going to end this conversation right now before Ten Tailed Fox comes in and this becomes a larger cluster$*#( then it already is.
 * WindStar7125 as I'm sure has already been explained several times in fact, the order of things was the Hagoromo and Hamura beat the Ten-Tails and sealed it into Hagoromo and then when he was about to die, Hagaromo created the tailed beast and put the statue into the moon. Yes we are all aware of what the statue is and that can be found in the articles in question.
 * There, WindStar7125's question has been addressed. Thank you, have a good day. I will block anyone for a day or more if you respond after my message, whichever one tickles my fancy at the time. And yes that does mean confirmation that this discussion is closed. Discussion done have a pleasant day.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:36, July 28, 2014 (UTC)

This dicussion is closed.

Staff
Did he actually ever use one? Because it's been just Truth Seeking Ball.--Elveonora (talk) 11:23, August 2, 2014 (UTC)

Bump--Elveonora (talk) 11:25, August 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes. He had one before becoming a jinchuriki. Look at the picture of him and his brother against the Ten-Tails.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:37, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * He had Truth Seeking Balls before he became a jinchuuriki as well, that's why the staff in fact might have been them.--Elveonora (talk) 11:56, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * He did? • Seelentau 愛 議 11:58, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140611061247/naruto/images/4/44/Young_Hagoromo.png --Elveonora (talk) 12:15, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * And he wasn't a Jinchuriki on that picture because...? • Seelentau 愛 議 12:25, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because that was Kaguya's memory?--Elveonora (talk) 12:33, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * And that stops her from remembering what the dude she's trapped in looks like because...?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:37, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Why would she recall him young though? She was trapped in him until he was an old dude.--Elveonora (talk) 12:38, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * So she didn't see what he looked like as a young man? • Seelentau 愛 議 14:25, August 3, 2014 (UTC)

My point is that her memory of him young makes sense only if it was him when he was about to seal her, otherwise she would have recalled him as an old man.--Elveonora (talk) 15:16, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't get it. She has memories of him all the way up to her sealing in the moon, so why wouldn't she be able to remember him as a young man? • Seelentau 愛 議 15:49, August 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * The image you posted shows Hagoromo holding his Yang seal hand out, so that was probably before she was sealed, because perspective. It would be logical for her to remember her children in their youth, as that was when she could get the best look at them, and Hagoromo's seal could have prevented her from seeing the outside world at all. --Atrix471 (talk) 16:09, August 3, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, because you usually remember people the way you have last seen them. That means her remembering him young is contextual and likely the said memory was moments before he sealed her into himself.--Elveonora (talk) 16:27, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Why into himself, though? If this is the last memory she has of him (what I doubt), then it would be the one directly before her sealing in the moon. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:53, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually no, because he split the Ten-Tails before sealing it. I doubt she remembered anything after having all her chakra removed. --Atrix471 (talk) 16:57, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * You don't need chakra to have a working memory. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:02, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Seel, he sealed her into the moon as an old man I believe? We were told he split the chakra and made the moon on his deathbed, so that wasn't a memory from the second sealing.--Elveonora (talk) 17:10, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * You don't have to die as an old man, though. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:11, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * So he aged post-death as a phantom? ...--Elveonora (talk) 17:16, August 3, 2014 (UTC)

Lmao, I totally forgot about that. Anyway, you know how this ends: We won't add that he had the TSB before becoming Jinchuriki. • Seelentau 愛 議 18:18, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, it's true though. And I'm not talking about adding that, but removal of the monk staff from his infobox, because a tool made of chakra isn't an actual tool, I think--Elveonora (talk) 18:27, August 3, 2014 (UTC)

There's no viable reason to assume he had it before being a jinchūriki, since it's listed as a Tailed Beast Skill. All Shinju jinchūriki had it, and Naruto had it upon receiving a portion of all nine Bijū. I've only now remembered this, but I believe that answers this discussion. --Atrix471 (talk) 18:34, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Her sons obviously inherited her powers.--Elveonora (talk) 18:39, August 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * Episode #329 black & gold one(Kuroiraikou (talk) 19:07, August 3, 2014 (UTC))
 * To be fair, the anime frequently makes colouring errors. --Atrix471 (talk) 19:08, August 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * 'Tis true. I own the volume where that chapter appears and, in the manga, the staff is totally black. The anime got it wrong. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 19:26, August 3, 2014 (UTC)

Chibaku Tensei and Hagoromo's death
According to the latest chapter, the "seal" did turn the Ten-Tails into the gravity core of the Chibaku Tensei; as such, the events seem to have unfolded a bit differently from how Tobi stated. Basically, the Ten-Tails' body was sealed inside the moon not when Hagoromo died, but when he and Hamura defeated the Ten-Tails. Seeing that the tailed beasts got out of Kaguya's body by themselves, it isn't so far-fetched to say that Hagoromo ripped off the chakra of the Jūbi while the monster was being sealed. Any thoughts?-- JOA20 16:41, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm super confused by this. Hagoromo didn't look like dying, which he should, considering he unsealed the Ten-Tails from himself. Also he was young in the flashback, even though he died as an old man. I smell a retcon--Elveonora (talk) 16:46, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, pretty much. Unless he could survive a little after having the Ten-Tails' chakra divided into the nine beasts out of his body.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg JOA20 16:54, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think Kishi screwed up a little. We were told "gedo mazo" was what kept Hagoromo alive after he separated the chakra and made the Tailed Beasts. We were told that he then sealed the Ten-Tails' body on his deathbed. The chronology seems very messy. In the latest chapter he seemingly didn't seal the "gedo mazo" but healthy Ten-Tails and it wasn't on a deathbed literary nor figuratively--Elveonora (talk) 16:57, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, Hagoromo told Naruto that he and his brother sealed the TT inside of him. So, I think that Hamura and Hagoromo were sealing the TT, not creating the Chibaku Tensei. We only saw them touching something together like Sasuke and Naruto. That could be the moment were they sealed the TT.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 17:07, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Only that Black Zetsu said that Kaguya/TT was turned in the Chibaku Tensei core by Hagoromo and Hamura, just like Naruto and Sasuke did.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg JOA20 17:13, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Let's not forget that Kishi has, time and time again, made it apparent that chakra and body are different and can be separated. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 17:18, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * I forgot that. The only thing I can think of is that Hagoromo and Hamura turned the Rabbit into the core, while the TT is sealed inside of Hagoromo. But this time both the Gedou Mazou and the Rabbit were turned into the core.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 17:27, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well…the Ten-Tails' "chakra" is the tailed beasts, the "body" is the Gedō Mazō. The little problem here is that, if the Mazō was sealed in the moon by Hagoromo and Hamura when they were young-looking, and the Ten-Tails' jinchūriki can survive the tailed beasts' extraction only because of the Mazō's life force, how could Hagoromo live even after creating the nine tailed beasts without the Mazō?--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg JOA20 17:28, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * We'll get that answer when Madara wakes up next chapter. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 17:31, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, in this chapter nine of the ten tails turned into the known Tailed Beasts, while the tenth tail became the Rabbit. And there was the body, the Gedou Mazou. If Kaguya is that Rabbit and not the Gedou Mazou, then Hagoromo and Hamura may have turned it alone into the core without the Gedou Mazou and the 9TB (he hasn't created them yet). And that Rabbit/Kaguya is what created BZ later.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 17:38, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * The rabbit was the remainder of Kaguya's chakra inside the Mazo--Elveonora (talk) 19:12, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, any explanations?--Elveonora (talk) 09:48, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * 'bout what? • Seelentau 愛 議 10:16, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * The chronology of Hagoromo sealing TT into himself and then into the moon doesn't work--Elveonora (talk) 10:30, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it probably doesn't. I can't explain it, sorry^^ • Seelentau 愛 議 10:39, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

Hagoromo's gifts
After the latest chapter we should agree Hagoromo only gave Naruto and Sasuke the seals and everything else was Kabuto's and Obito's doings. I.e. Sasuke unlocked Rinnegan because Kabuto mixed Ashura's DNA and chakra from Hashirama with Sasuke's own Indra's DNA and chakra, while Naruto unlocked Six paths Sage mode because Obito sealed the rest of the Biju's chakra inside him.Faust-RSI (talk) 18:22, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * …sorry, where was it stated that Hagoromo only gave Naruto and Sasuke the seals? He gave them half of his chakra for each as well.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg JOA20 19:12, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * That was actually never stated. The only thing we know of he gave them are the seals and instructions--Elveonora (talk) 19:14, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * He told the Hokage that he gave his Chakra.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 19:24, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yet somehow this article states he gave them Rikudo Senjutsu and Rinnegan. And of course he gave them his chakra - neither sealing nor Naruto's magic healing would work without it. Faust-RSI (talk) 19:31, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * The seals may be the chakra he gave--Elveonora (talk) 19:29, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes. Seals are useless without chakra that activates and runs them. Faust-RSI (talk) 19:31, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Still, while we are certain that the seals were given by Hagoromo, we aren't about who gave them Rikudō Senjutsu and Rinnegan. Hagoromo stated that in order to awaken the Rinnegan, one must combine Indra and Asura's chakra into their body, or possess Hagoromo's chakra, either way works. Now, we know Hagoromo gave Naruto and Sasuke half of his chakra for each (otherwise he wouldn't have bothered to ask the Hokage to help him since he had no more chakra); we don't know if Kabuto did effectively implant Hashirama's cells into Sasuke, he just stated that his studies done with the First's DNA helped the healing (Edit: now I remembered that Hashirama transferred all his remaining chakra to Sasuke). Sasuke gained Hagoromo's chakra, that's for sure; so Sasuke gained the Rinnegan because of Hagoromo. About Naruto's Rikudō Senjutsu, we can see that Hagoromo "summoned" the other tailed beasts besides the ones Obito sealed into Naruto (Yin-Kurama, Shukaku and Gyūki), so the Sage did help Naruto awaken the Rikudō Senjutsu.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg JOA20 19:37, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

In chapter 681, Sasuke refers to both his Rinnegan's space-time technique and Naruto's foothold (Truth-Seeking Ball) as a result of receiving the Six Paths' power. So, at least as far as Sasuke is concerned, they didn't just awaken those powers on their own.--BeyondRed (talk) 19:52, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hagoromo's chakra amplified the powers Naruto and Sasuke already had. Sasuke had mastery over dojutsu, and thus gained the Rinnegan. Naruto had experience as a jinchuuriki and mastery over senjutsu, and thus gained the abilities of all nine tailed beasts and the Senjutsu of the Six Paths, respectively. Hagoromo's chakra can also damage a TT jinchuuriki/the TT itself (Kaguya), as seen with Sasuke and Kakashi. WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contribs) 20:01, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Sasuke has had multiple exposures to Asura's chakra. Nine tails cloak, Hashirama chakra transfer, Kabuto giving Hashi's cells. My guess is the last part sealed the deal, and Sasuke awakened it the same way Madara did: by having both Indra's and Asura's chakra, he summoned So6P's chakra (and the man himself). The ten-tails has the same chakra as the Sage. The nine beasts are the TT's chakra. So combining the chakra of all nine also brings forth his chakra (and the man himself). In this way, Naruto and Sasuke's new powers are from the Sage, but not directly. The only ones directly given to them by the sage are the Yin and Yang seals. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 20:51, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sasuke gained the light-purple, six tomoe Rinnegan because of Hagoromo. Yes, Indra and Asura's chakras are required, but they bring forth Hagomoro's chakra. Sasuke gained the Rinnegan when Hagoromo gave the former his chakra. As for Sasuke getting Asura's chakra, the chakras of Indra and Asura are stated to move on. If Sasuke got Asura's chakra, he didn't get it from Hashirama. He could have gotten it from Naruto... but... we don't know. All we know is that the Sharingan and Hagoromo's chakra are required to bring forth the Rinnegan, at least his Rinnegan and not Kaguya's. WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contribs) 20:56, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Madara and Hashirama don't all of a sudden stop having Indra and Asura's Chakra. It's a part of them. If chakra couldn't be in more than one person at once, it would break literally everything that happened in this war. Hashirama is still a transmigrant. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 21:17, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * He isn't, Hagoromo called him Ashura's predecessor--Elveonora (talk) 21:25, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hagoromo can't be Ashura's predecessor though. Ashura lived countless generations before him. Are we sure that wasn't just mistranslation?--Reliops (talk) 23:37, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

I think he meant successor. And plus, the chakra moves on, it doesn't stay in their bodies, because then they wouldn't be transmigrants. They would all be Asuras inhibitor which they're not. So Sasuke gaining the Rinnegan from Hashirama is ridiculous because:

1.You need DNA, not chakra. And we don't know if Kabuto put his cells into him. He just said it helped with healing.

And Sasuke called the rinnegan part of gaining the six paths power. As for naruto, He had the ingredients, but didn't know how to mix them, so to say. So Hagoromo "helped" both of them Riptide240 (talk) 02:12, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Where have you been? Hagoromo himself stated that mixing Indra's and Asura's chakras bring forth his, and can grant a Sharingan user the Rinnegan. WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contribs) 02:14, August 29, 2014 (UTC)


 * I know that, what I meant is that its done by gaining some of their DNA. If it was just a chakra transfer Madara could've just absorbed some of Hashiramas chakra in their fight. Not biting a piece of his damn arm off like a savage Riptide240 (talk) 02:17, August 29, 2014 (UTC)


 * And plus, that method takes a very long time, as shown with Madara. Also, on the page it mentions that the Six Paths technique is Hagoromos technique. Since Madara more or less awakened Hagoromos rinnegan and techniques, would it make to say that the six paths technique was Hagoromos unique rinnegan thing. Because Sasuke has his unique teleportation and if he awakened the rinnegan the same way as Madara, I think he would've gotten the same thing as them Riptide240 (talk) 02:33, August 29, 2014 (UTC) Riptide240 (talk) 02:30, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not neccesarily, Madara's unique technique could also be Limbo, which doesn't fit any of the Six Paths. That's assuming each person's Rinnegan even has a unique power in the first place. It's unfortunate that the Rinnegan's abilities have never really been explained, so we've just seen it do various things and added them to the page as we go.--BeyondRed (talk) 03:07, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

Now, Hagoromo no doubt amplified Naruto's and Sasuke's abilities. And he may be, or may be not the last necessary ingredient for said abilities. But as of now, the article flat out states HE gave rinnegan and rikudo's senjutsu to Sasuke and Naruto, as if there weren't their own efforts, Kabuto and Obito. Does anyone really thinks he would be able to do this without previous job done by the others? He wouldn't be summoned to them in the first place! Faust-RSI (talk) 05:19, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

@Reliopns, no, he says that in the raw too. Hagoromo calls Hashirama "Ashura's predecessor" because Ashura's successor is now Naruto--Elveonora (talk) 09:50, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

Six Paths Sage Technique Section
I had a question...why is Six Paths Technique written in this section...is it related or sth... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 16:06, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

uh...any1 care 2 answer... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 15:47, September 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * No idea why that is. Someone most likely assumed that Six Paths Sage Technique is related to Six Paths Technique of Rinnegan--Elveonora (talk) 15:51, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

How he revived the previous Kage
From the previous 2 chapters it reveals that Hagoromo revived all of the previous Kage who died, but judging from there appearance in the latest chapter they were not revived by the Edo Tensei as their eyes don't have the altered sclera, so he revived them with something completely different. So should we make a note of this fact in his abilities?SageM (talk) 20:53, September 6, 2014 (UTC)SageM
 * I don't think he revived the previous Kage, but "merely" called their spirits... like performing the Edo Tensei but without giving them a body. Said so, I agree that this should be stated in his ability, even if I don't think he could do that in life (probably he could do that now because he is in a sort of limbo between the Pure Land and the world of the living) Gilgamesh85 (talk) 21:22, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

extracting bijus
why is it written that hagoromo extracted the bijus out of the TT after kaguya's fight with team 7...all he did was summoning them back from kaguya's dimension... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 13:09, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Some people take it that it was Hagoromo who did all the fancy stuff--Elveonora (talk) 13:18, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Fixed.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 14:18, September 7, 2014 (UTC)

Summoning: Pure World Reincarnation?
This was shortly discussed before, but the way he brought back the previous Kage without human sacrifices needs to be mentioned and I think it's worth an own article. Opinions? Norleon (talk) 14:28, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes mention, but I don't know if it needs it's own article - what would we call it anyway? --Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:36, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, Summoning: Pure World Reincarnation could be an option I think as it's like Edo Tensei, just not as cruel. I mean, if we have fancy article names like Spear of Heaven Nine-Tails Beam...Of course, it would be listed as unnamed in the infobox. Norleon (talk) 14:43, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think it warrants its own article, at best a mention in Hagoromo's abilities section. If it gets a page, Norleon's name sounds good.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg JOA20 14:50, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * The name is senseless, simply because Edo Tensei refers to the summoning of the souls into the real world. Calling it Jodo Tensei would basically mean "killing them", lol. What Hagoromo did was Edo Tensei without the bodies. • Seelentau 愛 議 14:56, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, was just a try after all. Norleon (talk) 14:57, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Right, actually makes no sense.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg JOA20 15:43, September 7, 2014 (UTC)

Alright, again, it was just a suggestion. We could call it "Ghost Summoning" as well, as lame as that sounds. Norleon (talk) 13:22, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * Pure World Reincarnation would be the most amusing. But Pure World Summoning or something would work too.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 13:24, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * So can I create it? Norleon (talk) 13:25, September 8, 2014 (UTC)

I don't really see why not just make it correctly and don't leave to much work for others to clean up after. Munchvtec (talk) 13:27, September 8, 2014 (UTC)


 * While we're at it, we need to list Hagoromo and all generations of five Kage as users of the Summoning Technique, since they all used it together to bring Naruto and crew back from Kaguya's worlds. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 14:33, September 8, 2014 (UTC)


 * Why they weren't added a week ago is odd.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 14:38, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * I was wondering if it counted so I never bothered to push the issue of adding them. Still not too keen on the article though.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:39, September 8, 2014 (UTC)


 * L Agreed. I'll rectify this. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 14:41, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * I thought the Summoning was done in a similar way as it was done with Edo Tensei (Pakura and Gari for example weren't listed there too). But oh well, why not...
 * To start, I will try to create the article (yes Munchvtec, as correctly as I can) and we can then further discuss if it's necessary or not. Norleon (talk) 15:17, September 8, 2014 (UTC)

'The jutsu Edo Tensei is called Edo Tensei because it reincarnates someone into the unpure world'', the real world. Calling what Hagoromo did Jodo Tensei does not make any sense, since he did not reincarnate someone into the pure world.''' • Seelentau 愛 議 15:27, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * This. Pure World Reincarnation would equal killing someone in the impure land, thus "summoning" him or her to the afterlife xD--Elveonora (talk) 15:32, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, and like I said, I won't use that name. It was just a proposal. Norleon (talk) 15:33, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * I know, but somehow, Ultimate3 didn't read what I wrote earlier and I wanted to make clear how absolutely retarded that name would be, hence the boldness. • Seelentau 愛 議 15:34, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * I did read it. I said Pure World Reincarnation would be the most amusing, not a good choice.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 15:47, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * You said it would work, but it doesn't. Just wanted to make that clear. Or do I need manga evidence? :O • Seelentau 愛 議 15:51, September 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * So i did. I meant "Pure World Reincarnation would be most amusing, but Pure World Summoning or something would work."--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 15:55, September 8, 2014 (UTC)

Calm down. The name won't be used. I apology for bringing it up. Norleon (talk) 15:56, September 8, 2014 (UTC)

Jinchuriki
Hagoromo being a Jinchuriki is inconsistent with some facts. How can Hagoromo be a Jinchuriki of the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei created the moon? Did Hagoromo summon the ten-tails back to earth and sealed it into his body and created the Tailed Beasts? In light of the new information from the databooks, this page needs some serious revision. I would be happy to start it off if I had the databooks. :/Cloudtheavenger (talk) 06:43, November 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Kishimoto contradicts himself, so we don't touch the chronology of events unless we are absolutely sure how it went. At best, we may state: "x character/chapter said this and that happened, but y character/chapter/databook said otherwise" or so--Elve Talk Page 14:18, November 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * He was most likely the host of the chakra and not the body (which is consistent). He ripped out the core chakra, and sealed the body in the moon, and then used the chakra to create the Tailed Beast. But this is speculation. --The Thirteenth Doctor (Fantastic-Allons-y-Geronimo) 13:43, November 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Only that Yin-Kurama told Minato Hagoromo survived the tailed beast's extraction because he had the Demonic Statue in his body.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg JOA20 14:06, November 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * @doctor ^ is exactly what fucks up everything...if kurama hadn't said this then your theory would be most likely correct...& I can't think of anything else to consistentize the story...maybe kaguya's sons sealed her in hagoromo at first then when hagoromo sucked the jubi out of its chakra to give birth to the bijus & was reaching his end he [with hamura or alone] sealed the mazo in the moon...I'm captain obvious huh :]? --DARK ZERO--talk 14:53, November 18, 2014 (UTC)

Kekkei Mōra
I don't understand why databook listed him as Kekkei Mōra user, is it because he was a Jinchūriki of Ten-Tails? I thought only Rinne Sharingan fits into this category but it seems that Kaguya's Byakugan can also be said to be a Kekkei Mōra, if it is true then Hagoromo's Rinnegan should be classified as Kekkei Mōra, thoughts?--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 20:43, January 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * Nope, we can't just assume that. Madara and Hagoromo had the same Rinnegan. Nagato and Obito had Madara's Rinnegan, yet they aren't KKM users, are they? So it's unlikely to be because of the Rinnegan.--Elve Talk Page 21:21, January 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * I thought it was because of his TSB... but oh well... speculation for now...
 * -- WindStar7125 (talk | contribs) 21:34, January 19, 2015 (UTC)


 * The problem is that we don't have a clear [or complete] definition of the term "kekkei mora" & no one can make one...we just know it's a brand of jutsu unique to kaguya & whoever has her chakra...we don't what it actually is or does...& unfortunately, up until now the manga hasn't given anything concrete about it...hope the mini series does that...btw, when is it coming exactly...also is there gonna be an otsutsuki gaiden before it...U know...like the kakashi one...a lotta things can be explained there...& sry for going off topic :D --DARK ZERO--talk 22:06, January 19, 2015 (UTC)

I was wondering that may be KKM actually comes from Ten-Tails and because he was Jinchuriki his Rinnegan might have become superior, we don't know the extent of Hagoromo's Rinnegan so we can't compare Madara and Hagoromo's Rinnegan only because they look same in appearance, so just saying that it could be KKM and the reason behind it is that he was Jinchuriki and he could control Ten-Tails, we also know the third databook listed Rinnegan as Kekkei Genkai but only the fourth DB listed Hagoromo's Rinnegan as Kekkei Mora making it as an exception, does anybody know what the databook is saying about this? may be we can ignore this as it wasn't explained in manga.--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 13:51, February 3, 2015 (UTC)

Rinnegan Kekkei Genkai
Jin no Sho lists him as Kekkei Mora user, but not Kekkei Genkai, what do?--Elve Talk Page 13:33, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Accepting it and moving on isn't a viable option? • Seelentau 愛 議 15:09, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Not really if we want consistency and facts.--Elve Talk Page 16:14, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Considering other mistakes that made it into the book, for example, Danzo not being marked as having a summon, I believe this is clearly just a mistake. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:42, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * What about Kaguya's Byakugan and Shikotsumyaku? Both are listed as Kekkei Mora, she doesn't have a Kekkei Genkai symbol either.--Elve Talk Page 16:45, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

So when exactly are we gonna just right off that damned book if it's so littered with mistakes?--TheUltimate3 (talk) 16:46, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Why do you automatically assume this to be a mistake?--Elve Talk Page 16:47, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Kaguya's All Killing Ash Bones is superior and stronger version of Shikotsumyaku and it is already listed as Kekkei Mora so no need to list Shikotsumyaku--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 16:50, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Wha-.../WalksOutOfRoom--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 16:51, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * It's not in her infobox as kekkei mora nor do we have an article for it. Why don't we just add Shikotsumyaku as kekkei mora to her infobox and change her byakugan to kekkei mora as well and call it a day? Same with Hagoromo and his Rinnegan.--Elve Talk Page 16:54, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Because that would be speculation. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:00, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

The very opposite of that actually, it would be writing down information exactly as provided. If the book says Kaguya has Kekkei Mora and no Kekkei Genkai, then us listing her Byakugan as Kekkei Genkai and her Shikotsumyaku as nothing is us doing it wrong--Elve Talk Page 17:02, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

It was not Shikotsumyaku, she used All Killing Ash Bones so we can't really add this Kekkei Genkai--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 17:04, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * All killing ash bones is name of a technique not name of the bloodline ability behind it. There's no reason to assume hers isn't called Shikotsumyaku, considering her Byakugan is called just that--Elve Talk Page 17:08, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Shikotsumyaku is the name of the kekkei genkai, just like Sharingan. Also, she does not possess the Shikotsumyaku and her Byakugan wasn't called a Kekkei Mora, either. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:10, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Considering Jin no Sho lists her as Kekkei Mora user but not Kekkei Genkai, it was indeed. Not to mention her vacuum palm tech is also Kekkei Mora, likely for the same reason Lightning Transmission is Kekkei Genkai.--Elve Talk Page 17:16, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Danzo wasn't listed as a Kuchiyose user either. Manga > databook. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:18, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * An exclusion that is known to be a mistake is one thing, but assuming something is included by error is speculation. I thought you once said that Kaguya's whole body is a Kekkei Mora, now you are backtracking. Look at her techniques:


 * God: Nativity of a World of Trees = Kekkei Mora, most likely because her Mokuton is Kekkei Mora (and don't start again that bullshit about Ten-Tails having Mokuton but not Kaguya please)
 * All-Killing Ash Bones = Kekkei Mora, because her version of Shikotsumyaku is
 * Amenominaka = Kekkei Mora, because it's used through Rinne Sharingan, which is one
 * Infinite Tsukuyomi = Kekkei Mora, because it's used through Rinne Sharingan, which is one
 * Rabbit Hair Needle = Kekkei Mora, presumably because it's used in conjunction with her Byakugan, pretty much stating it to be one
 * Eighty Gods Vacuum Attack = Kekkei more, hence used with her Byakugan which is one as is obvious to me, just like Hyuga Vacuum Palm attacks are Kekkei Genkai because they are used with their Byakugan which is Kekkei Genkai.--Elve Talk Page 17:58, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

So everything is right and is it correct to list her Byakugan as Kekkei Mora because her whole body is Kekkei Mora then everything is, including her eyes.--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 18:05, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Exactly. And this is exactly why I asked Seelentau if he considers himself a hypocrite. On one hand, he makes a forum thread with: "facts guys, we write what's stated" then he goes off to oppose what's stated because he doesn't like it :-/--Elve Talk Page 19:20, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

Bumping this.--Elve Talk Page 08:59, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Err, I maybe said that Kaguya's whole body is a Kekkei Mora, but that was speculation, not a fact. I can't even remember when I said that, but sorry if that wasn't obvious. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:29, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Well you started this and several editors had their opinion known to be that we should write what's stated and that it's not our job to correct Kishi. Call me crazy, but one of those people was Seelentau.--Elve  Talk Page 16:23, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * And what does that have to do with this? • Seelentau 愛 議 16:53, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Exactly that, listing things as stated? Kaguya and Hagoromo have kekkei mora label and no kekkei genkai one, so it should be reflected as such.--Elve Talk Page 16:55, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Databook made A LOT of mistakes, let's not contradict with the manga. Byakugan and Rinnegan were said to be Kekkei Genkai, so they should stay as that.--Omojuze (talk) 17:03, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

"Not our job to correct mistakes" you guys said. Also there's a difference between correcting known/obvious mistakes, like omitted users, natures etc. and ASSUMING that something was included by mistake. I wholeheartedly doubt that this is a mistake, since as I said above, Kaguya's palm and hair techniques are listed both as Kekkei Mora and both use Byakugan, not sure what more evidence do you need.--Elve Talk Page 17:16, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Well I believe Seelentau was not the one who stated that her whole body is Kekkei Mora according to this it was just our assumption, but as our understanding goes there should be a reason to list Hagoromo's Rinnegan as Kekkei Mora and also Kaguya's techniques are already listed as Kekkei Mora except the Byakugan but we shouldn't be really adding this as it could be wrong, or it may be added as a trivia point, the manga stated her Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball as Kekkei Mora, only the databook lists all of her technique, everything is okay now only Byakugan is the problem.--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 17:19, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Elveonora - Wut? Are you suggesting that a genetic trait can be considered kekkei genkai for one person and kekkei mora for the other, even though the usage, appearance and everything about it known to us is the same? Not only that, Rabbit Hair Needle and Eighty Gods Vacuum Attack only use the Byakugan to ensure that the techniques hit the viral points or something. Byakugan is not needed to perform those techniques, and saying that it is would be speculation. Again, how come a thing that looks the same and has the exact same function be one for one person, and different for the other?--Omojuze (talk) 17:26, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not suggesting anything. The databook lists all her techniques as Kekkei Mora, even those listed with Byakugan and she has no Kekkei Genkai user classification, what is here to be argued about exactly?--Elve Talk Page 17:52, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * None of her techniques are listed with Byakugan (Rabbit Hair Needle is listed, but it shouldn't be because it doesn't require the Byakugan).--Omojuze (talk) 18:00, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * None of the Hyuga Gentle Fist techniques "require" the Byakugan, yet they are listed as Kekkei Genkai because they are used in conjunction with it. Same for Lightning Transmission it doesn't require the Sharingan in order to be cast, it requires it in order to be used effectively. Also just to answer the above, Kaguya's ETSB is Kekkei Mora while the TSB isn't, yet they have the same make-up, so there goes an example.--Elve Talk Page 18:09, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Both sides have valid points in this discussion. However, we do need to ensure we're displaying proper information, so if something is missing which should be present, it should be added. --Sajuuk talk 18:38, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

Well, we presently have listed Kaguya's Byakugan as Kekkei Genkai even though Jin no Sho omits her as a Kekkei Genkai user, while lists her as Kekkei Mora user. Her techniques which are used with Byakugan are also listed as Kekkei Mora. Long story short, her Byakugan should be listed as Kekkei Mora even though we may not like it/it doesn't make sense to us. Factual information > subjective feelings.--Elve Talk Page 18:54, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * so.... what? We just create an article called "Kaguya's Byakugan" and list it as a KKM? Ha. I kid, I kid. Though honestly, Hagoromo listed as a KKM user and not a KKG user complicates things as well... -- WindStar7125 (talk | contribs) 19:02, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * No, we just put Byakugan into "kekkei mora" part of the infobox in Kaguya's case and Rinnegan in Hagoromo's and mention in Byakugan and Rinnegan articles that theirs are somehow Kekkei Mora, that's all.--Elve Talk Page 19:04, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Affirming that Hagoromo's Rinnegan is a KKM? Hell, I did the same with his TSB, but that was rejected by Seelentau as well. -- WindStar7125 (talk | contribs) 19:07, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * TSB isn't listed as Kekkei Mora unless I'm mistaken, only ETSB is so it isn't it.--Elve Talk Page 19:28, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Neither is the Rinnegan nor Byakugan. But their users are. Also, the databook stated that Kaguya doesn't have Shikotsumyaku, but that Shikotsumyaku is a derived technique of her ability to manipulate her bone structure (got that from FF-Suzaku, in case you were wondering). -- WindStar7125 (talk | contribs) 19:31, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

But we should call it something. It's genetic yet it isn't in her kekkei part of infobox. That's why I proposed listing her as Kekkei Mora Shikotsumyaku user, since that's better than "Kaguya's bone powers" or something.--Elve Talk Page 20:12, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

Just throwing this out there, but maybe Kekkei Mora is just an inclusive term. It does use inclusive wording. Like, you don't have to say "he's got kekkei mora and kekkei genkai" because just saying "he's got kekkei mora" already tells the whole story. Or maybe, as suggested elsewhere, his traits are kekkei mora because they're a more "pure" version of whatever was passed down to later generations. Frankly, I think it would actually probably be easier to just do what the databooks do and make the infoboxes more ambigious. Add "Kekkei Genkai," "Kekkei Tota," "Kekkei Mora," and "Summoner" to the classification section, like Sage and Jinchuriki (which is what the databook does). Then figure out a different way to list their unique genetic mutations. FF-Suzaku (talk) 15:00, February 8, 2015 (UTC)
 * In the end it would achieve the same thing as I propose and they oppose, Kaguya and Hagoromo would be listed only as Kekkei Mora users.--Elve Talk Page 15:48, February 8, 2015 (UTC)
 * Done, Elveonora. (At least, his Rinnegan is a KKM now, just as DB4 listed him as a KKM user.)  ★   WS7125 [Mod]WindStar7125 Task.svgWindStar7125's Task.svg 23:13, March 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * I thought I had already done that?--Elve Talk Page 20:19, March 2, 2015 (UTC)

Sharingan 2
It was said Indra inherited his father's eyes, but he didn't inherit the Rinnegan, so Hagoromo must have had the Sharingan too?--Elve Talk Page 06:28, July 9, 2015 (UTC)

It wasn't meant to be taken literal, by eyes it meant his dojutsu, the Sharingan, which is a devolved form of Rinnegan. Hagoromo has, in every case, always been depicted with nothing more than Rinnegan, even stated to be born with it I believe. Kaguya's Rinne Sharingan devolved into her son's Rinnegan, which devolved into his son's Sharingan. His Rinnegan is also a Kekkei Mora, not Kekkei Genkai, so I'm sure he always had it. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 06:32, July 9, 2015 (UTC)
 * Who has ever said Rinnegan devolved into Sharingan? Rinne Sharingan devolved into Rinnegan as you say, hence it doesn't make sense. It's more like Rinne Sharingan split into Rinnegan and Sharingan, like sibling doujutsu instead of parent-child doujutsu.--Elve Talk Page 11:12, July 9, 2015 (UTC)
 * He didn't inherit his eyes, he inherited his "eyes". • Seelentau 愛 議 11:41, July 9, 2015 (UTC)
 * Is "eyes" what the manga/databook said or is it just us using "eyes" instead of eyes. So are you saing super powered Sharingan turned into Rinnegan to turn into depowered Sharingan? Makes more sense that Rinne Sharingan split into both. But that again, even if I'm right, that doesn't mean Hagoromo had Sharingan because it might have been recessive genes for him, hmph.--Elve Talk Page 12:38, July 9, 2015 (UTC)