Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-24886865-20171122234112/@comment-24886865-20171218184134

AsianReaper wrote: Nerosmoke wrote:

I think you are the one that has the problem here. Kakashi is a sensor ninja now? lol. I am not even going to argue that I am just going to point to this when ever someone said he is not. because he can sense people now and even impressing a senjutsu user.

That being said. Kakashi lost to Zabuza when they fought then you have this ''despite his ruthlessness, Zabuza was possessed of a softer side that he himself was largely unaware of. After Haku's death, while Zabuza initially only laughs at his usefulness, Kakashi notes Zabuza is no longer able to fight to his true potential as he is secretly distraught at Haku's loss. In his last moments, Zabuza realised how deeply he truly cared for Haku,'' So Zabuza is stronger and is the winner of the fight with out anyone to Help Kakashi.

Zabuza lost to do the Sharigan and teamwork alone he is not going to be able to take on a stronger fighter in one v one inside of the Mist. https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9b/c4/50/9bc450ff96148288c10b3740ffe9a975.png

I am bringing up the thousands of old feats and the omoi feat around the time of the 3rd Raikage feat you talked about. that makes you wonder how would that fight have went if not for the guy with the rubber ball and the 8 tails giving him information. that being said if you are talking the hypothetical non-sage kage bunshin endurance vs mizu bunshin endurance that has been stated to be greater then the kage bunshin in everyway and alow full use of the users ablity's. Then we would also assume Kisame, Zabuza and Mangetsu and the other Swordsmen with mizu bunshin could make %30 %50 70% clones that would wipe the floor with the fodder Shadow clones.

Naruto made 7% Shadow clones? vs Kisame's 30% Waterclone + 6 other kage level swordsmen water clones.

Let's put the possablity of Kisame, Mangetsu or Zabuza making the insane 70% water clones to the side. Kisame's 30% clone was claimed to have super human strength and took hits from Might Guy with out braking made other water clones while holding guy's team in water prisons with water clones and then uses the giant water shockwave, shark bomb and five hungry sharks over powering might guy into the 6th gate. all from a 30% mizu bunshin.

And we are putting them up vs 12 7% shadow clones that have taken out fodder zetsu and was defeated by black zetsu and Omoi from what I remimber. that seems to be quite the differance in terms of quality vs quanity.

Again nothing anywhere showed Might Dai has weaker mussle mass then Might Guy or that the 8th gate is a power muliplayer like you said before. When Madera fight guy he made remarks about the red mist being a sigh of great power not that the red mist some power that only worked for some.

If anything the team of Swordsmen was weaker as it did not Have Kisame or Zabuza who was stronger then Fuguki and Juzo his dad fought. so the stronger team will do even better figthing the Death gate user given all the older members will still die from the fight. Mangetsu or Chojuro would add quite a bit to the team meaning a stronger fight for Guy.

The 7 Swordsmen of the Mist come from the 1st Mizukage era meaning Hashirama era meaning Madera era. if they was weak then Hashirama could have defeated the land of waves and that did not happen. So they are in fact Madera level and defeating a death gate user and tailed beast is reason enough to say they are.

When Madera was fighting the 5 kage he was standing there letting them try to fight him has he said his era was stronger. he even stoped and sat down and would not fight a hashirama wood clone. YOU really have an issue reading what I said. So to reiterate, Kakashi is not a sensor type. But as a Jonin level Shinobi, he already demonstrated he could sense enemy presence. He's already done it. No if ands or buts. If you don't wanna accept that's what he did, then that's your problem.

Notice I only emphasized two losses that Zabuza had. One, when Kakashi got serious after getting set free from Water Prison. Two, when Kakashi noticed Naruto had Kurama chakra leaking out. Both times, Kakashi quickly very nearly ended the fight and killed Zabuza. Both times, Haku saved him. I didn't emphasize what happened after Haku's death, because it wasn't both of them fighting at full capacity; it's obvious that Zabuza was shaken. Kakashi threw him around like a boy. '''But both times previous to Haku's death, Kakashi beat him. It's already been shown.'''

Zabuza lost to Kakashi because Kakashi was better. When Kakashi wasn't taking the fight seriously, he got captured, yes. But when he was set free, it was literally him vs Zabuza with no one else. He matched every jutsu and every clash, and he literally would have killed him. No one else was in the fight at that point, the others were just in awe.

Old feats. Irrelevant. Naruto wasn't in Sage Mode when he took Chidori. Those are his regular clones now. And it has never been stated that Water Clones have better endurance. If I'm mistaken, then tell me where it is that it's stated and I'll admit I'm wrong.

You don't understand how the clones work, do you? Each clone that is split off has an equal portion of the user's chakra. I used this 7% clone to remind you that 7% was enough to fight the Third Raikage. Only 7%.Now Kisame had made a clone with 30% (with the substitute technique), and fought against Guy and Bee. Naruto made 7%. Point is, for some reason you don't want Naruto to be as strong as he's been shown to be.

Kisame can't make 70% water clones because then his body would only have 30% left, it doesn't make sense.

Omoi literally took down a clone in a quick skirmish before the war. How in the heck are you comparing that to when Naruto showed the heightened mastery and durability of his clones? And those clones have beaten Kage, not just some fodder Zetsu.

Regarding Might Dai. You are so in denial it's kind of baffling. Every statement in the manga, showed Dai was inept. The Eternal Genin. Failed most missions he was assigned. He was weak. The Gates only open limiters to your chakra, that's all. If you don't have much chakra, or you're not very good at using it, then it doesn't help you as much as others. It does make you much stronger, but your own abilities come into play. Just like 5th Gates Lee could not beat Gaara, but for example 3rd Gates Gai almost certainly could. Maybe with less gates.

Any iteration of the Swordsmen are wiped out instantly by 8 gates Gai.

Hashirama didn't try to defeat the land of waves, his whole point was trying to bring peace. He actually brought together the leaders of each village for peace talks, and his generation was the one who brought overall peace to the five nations.

And when I said the seven swordsmen are not "TTJ Madara level," I'm saying they're not his level when he was the Ten Tailed Jinchuuriki. Hashirama outright stated that an incomplete one without control (Obito) was stronger than him. Madara in control is so far out of their league it's not funny. And the Swordsmen beat a weaker death gate user, and defeating a Tailed Beast is impressive but not Hokage Naruto impressive.

Again I think you have the problem understanding here. KAKASHI IS A KAGE LEVEL NINJAS HE IS THE 6TH HOKAGE! He is not jonin level what are you smokeing. You said it your self Kakashi has sensor ablites. on part with the 4th Hokage senjutsu none the lest.

It was clear getting beat up by Zabuza and kicked 30 feet into the air was all part of his plain. just like being traped in the water prison and admiting he was done for. all part of the plan.

That being said. Zabuza did Kick him 30 feat and does have a mist jutsu that counters the Sharigan, water prison and out cloned Kakashi at point blank. and of course Kakashi would have been fine with no one to help him all three fights. https://imgur.com/mRLEBEp

It;s stated the Mizu bunshin is suprior to the kage bunshin in every way. I mean you can always just google this or check the wiki http://oi39.tinypic.com/syp9us.jpg That being said the stronger clones go to the Mist Swordsmen. now admit your wrong.

The clones don't use the full amount of your chakra Zabuza was able to make a group of mizu bunshin at about 10% of his power that was able to wipe the floor with both Naruto and Sasuke. Sasuke was in the second fight able to take out the clones with Zabuza saying he was impressed he was able to do so with the clones only have 10% of his power. now you can understand just how strong Kisame is that his 30% has super human strong and take take hits with out busting. with Kisame full power base form being over 3x that. and other swordsmen like Mangetsu are also able to make water clones with Mangetsu being made of water don't even think how unkillable thoes clones are.

So the hypotheoretical 70% from video games don't use all of the users chakra to make and are as strong as a normal ninja do to the boss status of the mist7 meaing it is not just a 7 vs 1 match it is a army vs 1.

Naruto's clone was never hit in the 3rd Raikage fight had would have been if not for the rubber guy saving him and giving him time to get information. No one is there to save his clone from raiga bolts or Jinpachi blast.

I don't think someone who masted the 8 gates is inept. that is like saying rock lee who only knows the 8 gates is inept for having the power to smack aroung god tiers.

Dai can only smack around god tiers what a loser.

8 gates guy can't take the stronger members of the swordsmen when one of them forced him into the 7th gate with out a sword. with a sword kisame would have forced Guy into the 8th gate and with a team you have over kill.

I remimber the clans being at war and being unable to defeat all the other clans like the uchiha. so he joined with him so he foster peace as a way to set the leaf village on top. if he could have defeated the other clans then why was there wars.

The Swordsmen clear are Madara level. with the roster having someone with the powers of the tailed beast, Raikage, Mizukage, Spider traps, exposions, silent killing and a susano buster, on the team makes all the Nations shit there panths at the sight of them.