Talk:Demonic Mirroring Ice Crystals

Amaterasu?
When Sasuke used standard Fire Release to attack Haku's mirrors, Haku said it would "take much more heat than that to melt this ice." Would Amaterasu or Blaze Release Techniques be able to melt these mirrors?--Dusk-sama (対談) 11:06, June 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * This isn't a forum. Yatanogarasu 11:13, June 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * doesn't mean you can't answer me.--Dusk-sama (対談) 22:49, June 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * But to answer would invite you or others to debate said answer, which would not improve the article. ~SnapperTo 02:35, June 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * then kindly direct me to a place where I can get my answer.--Dusk-sama (対談) 08:02, June 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * ~SnapperTo 17:09, June 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * Please stop answering each other's comments in such a forum-like way, THIS IS NOT A FORUM. Perplathi (talk) 17:06, June 30, 2010 (UTC)

Latent Space/Time ability?
Have you guys ever thought of editing the article to add in an assumption of this ability being Space/Time related? What are your thoughts on this? I know a lot on this sight is strong assumption and the way the mirrors have been used imply there is a Space/Time aspect involved.

A good example is when Haku stops Kakashi from harming Zabuza, he is far away but creates a mirror next to them and then gets inside of it and jumps out to intercept the attack. If he could have gotten to where Kakashi and Zabuza were with just jumping, why did he create the mirror?

Another perfect example is when he creates a mirror in the air and somehow gets inside of it and then attacks Sai. It seems like wherever he creates a mirror, he can teleport, similar to Minato's Hiraishin and the required seal.

Just wondering what your thoughts are on this in regards to adding this tidbit of information to trivia.

fan151.198.113.207 (talk) 01:15, November 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * Assumption? = No instantly. It was high-speed movement, not space—time ninjutsu.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 01:18, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Then what exactly is the point of having the mirrors? If it is just high speed movement, why did Haku need to get inside the mirror, then jump out to defend Zabuza? Wouldn't that be wasting time? I don't want to discuss this like a "forum", was just wondering what some of the mods/admins thought of this.fan151.198.113.207 (talk) 01:24, November 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * Using the reflection of the mirrors allows Haku to move at literal light speed. —ShounenSuki (talk 01:41, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

So wouldn't that entice/imply a Space/Time aspect to the technique? If he is using the "reflection" of the mirror to instantly move to one spot to another, that isn't high speed movement(ie; his legs). He could have easily used "high speed movement" and jumped in the air and destroyed Sai's bird but he chose to do it with a mirror because it was much faster, IMO. Create a Mirror, teleport into it, attack. Same thing with Kakashi and Zabuza, if it was just high speed movement, he did not need the mirror at all to intercept Kakashi's attack, he could just use his feet. As I said, I don't want to discuss this like a forum, I just wanted to throw this idea out there so I will leave it at that. Thank you to anyone that takes the time out to read this though. Bye Fan151.198.113.207 (talk) 01:47, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

It's not a Space-Time technique. It's simply fast movement, that's it. @ShounenSuki Source? When did it say it allowed for light speed movement? The article does say that he gets slower over time, but shouldn't that be in there too? To close, Space-Time techniques are not high speed techniques, at all. They're not even speed due to the fact that they happen instantaneously, thus ignoring the time aspect. It's a reflection of light, which is speed based. Haku doesn't 'instantly' appear there, he would simply be there as fast as possible with speed. And how do you know if he could have gotten to Sai where he was? He was far too high up for him to reach by simply jumping. Skitts (talk) 03:18, November 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * @151.198.113.207: Space–time techniques literally bend space and time, allowing for instantaneous teleportation. Haku doesn't do this. He uses the reflections on his mirrors to achieve speeds as fast as that of light. He still has to traverse the distance between the mirrors, no matter how fast he does this. As long as he actually has to move between two places he uses speed, not space–time.
 * @Skitts: The source is the Makyō Hyōshō article from the first databook. It's in my list of translations. —ShounenSuki (talk 12:21, November 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * If I remember correctly, Sasuke was able to wound Haku in transit or maybe it was follow his movements. If it were a space-time technique, he wouldn't be able to do that without being a sensor. Even then his chakra would disappear and then reappear suddenly as in the fight (Tobi vs. Fū and Torune).Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 12:29, November 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * Ahh, this is all confusing. I don't really understand the reflection part of what ShounenSuki said and "speed" still does not answer why he needed a mirror to get to Zabuza when Kakashi was about to kill him. If it was just speed, what is the purpose of the mirror? Does the Databook explain in more detail the "reflection" aspect of the technique or is it just stated? It is kind of confusing but thank you guys for posting!! I'm gonna go read some Databook translations. As for Skitts, I do agree with you about the jumping part with Sai. Haku probably could not reach him just by jumping. That's where the mirror and how he got into it comes into play. If he can't reach Sai, how does he reach the mirror which is above him? Is it just the "reflection"? I am gonna go read this Databook entry lol.

Sorry forgot to sign in my last post. After rereading the chapter with Sai, it's also interesting to note that there are two mirrors, one on the ground, one in the air. What exactly is the point of doing this if the technique isn't instantaneous? After he destroys Sai's birds and they fall down, Haku can be seen in the mirror on the ground. The way I see it, which may very well be wrong, is he creates a mirror on the ground and one in the air, gets inside the one on the ground, teleports via the Space-Time possibility, then attacks. Another possibility would be that he creates a mirror in the sky, teleports into it, then creates one on the ground to get down safely. It would explain PERFECTLY why he need a mirror in order to intercept Kakashi's attack. Why exactly did Haku need the mirror to get to Kakashi? When his technique is used in Dome style, it's to confuse the enemy. If it was just speed, he didn't need the mirror at all to reach Kakashi, it's something faster than speed. There is NO NEED for two mirrors if he is simply using "speed" to get inside the mirror in the sky(which is unlikely because of the high altitude). Why does he need a mirror on the ground to get inside of a mirror in the air? It's not like he is using the full technique and trapping his opponent in a dome to confuse them. This is just speculation and nothing concrete but Haku "covering the distance between mirrors" definitely doesn't seem correct. Or Kishimoto changed the way the mirrors originally worked but it is very confusing. Fan151.198.113.207 (talk) 04:18, November 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * You have trouble reading, don't you?
 * Let me explain it as clearly as possible: Haku does not teleport. He moves between mirrors at speeds up to and including light speed, using the reflections. It has always worked this way, hence why Sasuke was able to intercept Haku. —ShounenSuki (talk 15:27, November 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * I can read, by the way. What I said, and what I will restate, is that the "reflection" aspect of the technique doesn't make any sense at all. How exactly does he use the reflection of a mirror to transport between mirrors? You repeating what you said still does not explain how the reflection conjures up "light speed". You said in one of your previous posts that the distance between the mirrors still has to be covered, so my question is, what is the point of the mirrors when not using the technique in a dome format to confuse enemies? WHY did he need a mirror to stop Kakashi if it's just his speed? If the "lightspeed" is created by the reflection, well how? Why does two mirrors reflecting cause Haku to gain "lightspeed"? It doesn't make sense.
 * I KNOW he uses speed to move between the mirrors but there have also been cases like Kakashi about to attack Zabuza and Sai's squad being attacked from the mirror in the air, that don't make sense.
 * Excuse me for the tone of this post, but you implied that I could not read when that surely isn't the case.fan151.198.113.207 (talk) 16:27, November 6, 2011 (UTC)


 * It seems as though people become troubled when others legitimately counter their beliefs on this website and then they proceed to insult you.. so on that note, I won't be responding anymore. It is clear that you guys don't agree with me and that is fine, I'll just continue believing it's S/T related anyway.. just like the majority of the community(on NF at least). Thank you all for your replies.Fan151.198.113.207 (talk) 17:02, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

No, we get annoyed when we state the same thing repeatedly. :l You aren't 'legitimately countering beliefs', you're completely misunderstanding things. Light reflecting off of a mirror still moves at the speed of light. Why the heck do you need to ask "why" that happens? Do you ask why a ninja can shoot flames out of their mouth by just performing some intricate hand movements? No, because it's a work of fiction. It's simply a part of Haku's technique. It's not his speed. it's the speed provided by usage of the technique. The 'point' of the mirrors is that it allows him to reach places as fast as possible with speed. He simply formed the mirror near his target, allowing him to super speed to it. In the Sai example, all he did was form it in the sky above him. I don't get what is so confusing for you. That's it. He just uses his Ice Release to create one up there and "reflect" himself there at a maximum of light speed. Skitts (talk) 18:08, November 6, 2011 (UTC)

No technique exists that can defeat this technique?
It is said that no technique exists that can defeat this technique. Whether that is true or not, there are shinobi who can finish off this technique and it's users. Just put powerful fire release users like Madara Uchiha or even the current Sasuke, or extremly strong and fast shinobi like A ot the Third Raikage, or the ones possessing extremely dangerous ninjutsu like Ōnoki or Mū. Finish. Fire Release: Great Fire Destruction, Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi, Susanoo or the Raikages' Lightning Oppression Horizontal Chop or Hell Stab or the Tsuchikages' Dust Release: Detachment of the Primitive World Technique. I'll give more if you want to. Even a small portion of the Nine-Tail's power,the intial jinchūriki form was able to finish this. So isn't it illogical to say that no technique can defeat this technique?5.37.249.149 (talk) 16:48, June 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * All of that is an assumption because none of them have ever been pitted against, and as such have never defeated this technique. The article is copied directly from the databook entry, that's why that bit about about no technique being able to defeat it is there.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 16:52, June 4, 2012 (UTC)

Speed of light
If this Ninjutsu description says he can move at the speed of light, then why dosen't he? He could have countered naruto's assault easily, and killed them, with the amount of force traveling at that speed can cause. More importantly, anything that could travel at the speed of light If one were able to move information or matter from one point to another as fast as light, then according to special relativity, there would be some inertial frame of reference in which the signal or object was moving backward in time. This is a consequence of the relativity of simultaneity in special relativity, which says that in some cases different reference frames will disagree on whether two events at different locations happened "at the same time" or not, and they can also disagree on the order of the two events (technically, these disagreements occur when the spacetime interval between the events is 'space-like', meaning that neither event lies in the future light cone of the other).[25] If one of the two events represents the sending of a signal from one location and the second event represents the reception of the same signal at another location, then as long as the signal is moving at the speed of light or slower, the mathematics of simultaneity ensures that all reference frames agree that the transmission-event happened before the reception-event.[25]--Aeonophic (talk) 19:20, October 21, 2012 (UTC)Aeonophic

Don't take the databook statements literary, they often are just an exaggeration--Elveonora (talk) 19:27, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

And just because he can do it, doesn't mean he always does. The article also points out that he becomes slower the longer the technique is in effect due to its high chakra cost. He could begin with the speed of light, get slower, but still be fast enough for it to appear instantaneous. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:30, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

The speed decreases over time due to chakra consumption. Skitts (talk) 23:31, June 13, 2013 (UTC)

Passed down within the Yuki Clan?
When did it ever say the technique was passed down within the Yuki Clan? As far as I know, only Haku used it, and he hasn't really had any contact with other Yuki to pass it on or learn it. Kaitan (talk) 04:15, September 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * It was mentioned in the databook and he would have learned it the same way anyone else would've: scrolls.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 06:39, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

Who removed the lightspeed information?
In the reference to the Databook on the page 221, that is not what the Databook states. It states Light Speed. Why has it been changed from what it was originally? I'm changing it back. JamesDuh (talk) 07:22, March 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * Because clearly it he couldn't be moving at light speed, otherwise it'd be a bunch retcons. Sasuke could react to it, but couldn't do the same with Lee. Would that make Lee faster than light? But, oh wait, Lee couldn't dodge a sound speed attack. --Rai 水 (talk) 07:26, March 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * Rachin removed it for reasons mentioned above. I suggest noting the speed in trivia. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 07:30, March 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * Then you should remove the reference completely. You can't state that is what the Databook states if it doesn't. The Databook states "The abominable and tremendous ability, passed down only within Haku's clan... The "Kekkei Genkai: Demonic Mirroring Ice Crystals" is a technique wrapped up in many mysteries. Only one thing is clear: it is said that no method in existence can defeat this technique. In an instant, multiple mirrors of ice are created around the enemy, reflecting nothing but Haku. For Haku, it's possible to move between the mirrors at the speed of light. It's impossible to see attacks send out from this literal light speed movement. For the opponent, nothing is left but to wait in amazement." Not what you have written. So why is the wiki stating it does? You can't post something and say it's from the Databook when it isn't. JamesDuh (talk) 07:41, March 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * You do realize this is a fan wiki and we are not obliged to take anything word for word. --Rai 水 (talk) 07:48, March 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * Ummm, that's not the problem here? You have a technique description listed stating the description came from the Databook. That isn't true. That description is purely a fan made description, so why are you stating it came from the Databook? Or you stating, you guys are just stating bs and don't care?JamesDuh (talk) 08:00, March 20, 2018 (UTC)

Because some of the information did indeed come from the Databook. If we choose not to include or to rephrase a sentence than so be it. We've been doing fine by this for a while now and you're not going to change that all because you want to Haku to be lightspeed even though it's completely false. Now as @Sarutobi said, you can add the lightspeed part to the trivia but that's as far as you're going to get. Good day to you. --Rai 水 (talk) 14:36, March 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * If the databook really did mention it, it should be mentioned somewhere in the article, per the wiki's status quo. Whether it be in the trivia, or cleverly worded in the article (I'd say that the sentence "<...> it's possible for him to move between the mirrors at exceedingly high speed levels" is plenty to convey the notion) depends on the contributor. @Rai: I have no clue if it's intentional, but I have no clue why you're implying that we've ever cherry-picked information from the databooks because that has never been the case. I don't believe we've ever neglected to mention something that came straight from a databook, unless it's a major retcon, in which case, yeah, just throw it in the trivia section somewhere.--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 15:22, March 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * I never said that we nitpick information or implied such. However, I'm saying the truth. We don't have to state anything word for word. The only time we actually don't mention something in an article is when it doesn't make sense. Of course we can mention in the trivia. We don't need people getting the wrong idea. --Rai 水 (talk) 15:40, March 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * Plus, hyperboles - especially in the databooks - are a thing. If Haku literally moved at the speed of light, his mass would be infinite and he would become a black hole. So yeah, what Rachin said: We don't include databook entries word for word. We rephrase them so that they make sense from an encyclopedic point of view. This includes leaving out hyperboles. • Seelentau 愛 議 15:48, March 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * @Rai: I'mma bold it out for you, both as a reference, as as a suggestion to choose your words more carefully in the future :) : "Because some of the information did indeed come from the Databook. If we choose not to include or to rephrase a sentence than (then) so be it. We've been doing fine by this for a while now".
 * @Seele: Well, yeah, re-phrasing is obviously fine, but the (accidental) notion of "cherry-picking" just rubbed me the wrong way upon reading what Rai had to say, so I just had to respond...--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 15:50, March 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * @Serk Why are you so mad though? Clearly you should know by now that we don't have to include everything word for word, and at times, we don't. This is a prime example of that. I'm not saying we make up shit, but come on man. You decided to take it as you did for some reason. @Tau didn't. --Rai 水 (talk) 16:12, March 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * Not mad :D It's just that, from personal experience, I'd suggest choosing your words a bit more carefully around new(-er) or less frequently as active users. You wouldn't want to give off the wrong impression...--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 16:19, March 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * I'll take into consideration... --Rai 水 (talk) 16:27, March 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * Amaterasu is hotter than the Sun!!!! Teh fact, databook said so.--Elve Talk Page 21:57, March 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * Rai. Do not assume what I want. I don't care if you state Haku has lightspeed or not, because at the end of the day Kishi states it and his word is law whether he doesn't make sense or not. However, I do have a problem with people putting things down and claiming the Databook states it. Some information came from the Databook, sure. But majority of it did not. It's okay to put things in your own words, in fact the base wikia states you should put it in your own words less you might violate the Terms of Service and invoke copyright, but when you add stuff that is nowhere in the Databook it becomes a lie. You can't state something came from the Databook when it did not. It doesn't even sound legal and might even fall in the frames of Copyright Infringement under a violation of the fair use policy that protects wiki pages. Whether it's legal or not, the point is, you shouldn't be lying to the readers. I came here quite a lot for Naruto sources and I know a lot of people who do. I just want the information they read to be true. Lots of people use this wiki as a source for their debates as well.JamesDuh (talk) 22:13, March 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * @James Now you are being over-dramatic. The technique is from the manga. The Databooks are supplementary. We add information from to them to gain a deeper understanding of the tehnique. But, we as wiki choose not to make these "official" proclaims a fact when it goes against the manga, which takes priority. Instead of complaining, why don't you take our advice and add the lightspeed part to the trivia. This is how we have been doing contradictions and errors here. --Rai 水 (talk) 23:05, March 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * But this is neither a contradiction, nor an error. We simply reword the databook article to avoid a hyperbole. We don't add unconfirmed information or anything. Adding that the speed Haku moves as is lightspeed would be silly, even as a trivia, since it's part of a basic reading comprehension to understand that it's a hyperbole. Nothing else. • Seelentau 愛 議 23:13, March 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * Again. It's not about the lightspeed. It's about placing added information and sourcing that said information, claiming it came from the Databook when it didn't. It ruins the credibility of the page. For example, you have an exact number stated for how many mirrors Haku creates for the technique with the Databook listed as a source. However, the Databook does not state this, only multiple being stated, while the manga has shown Haku to create less than the number provided in other instances. Like to save Zabuza from Kakashi's Lightning Cutter or when Haku used it during the war. Seel. The mirror statement is unconfirmed, so you guys obviously do. I think he's only created that many mirrors, once. That statement shouldn't be listed there. If you state that statement elsewhere, then that's fine. But stating it came from the Databook, is a lie. JamesDuh (talk) 23:38, March 20, 2018 (UTC)

The databook is only part of the source, not all of it. The manga and even the anime is a source, so try not to take so seriously. I feel for you, but it is clear at this point that nothing is going to change. --Rai 水 (talk) 23:55, March 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * If the statement is the problem, then move it. I can see the part you're talking about. The whole statement about the mirrors. Just move it to after the source is given. There, everyone is happy. Actually, I'll just do it if everyone is fine with it. I'll be moving "The opponent is trapped in a dome of twenty-one floating mirrors made out of ice. Twelve remain at ground level, eight float above the first twelve and angled towards the ground, and the final mirror is above the rest and facing the ground." To after the Databook source so people do not get confused and think this statement comes from the Databook and ensure easy going reading and less confrontation. The page will stay the same, and nothing will be false, just organized as long as everyone can come to that agreement. LoneNinja (talk) 01:09, March 21, 2018 (UTC)
 * Wait, the only problem is that the databook says "multiple", while we say "twenty-one"? That's all? • Seelentau 愛 議 01:44, March 21, 2018 (UTC)
 * No the problem is @James not wanting to accept the claim that Haku moving lightspeed while using Demonic Mirrors, even though it places in a bunch of retcons, and he would know if he actually watched or read the series. The 24 mirrors is just a cover up as he only made the thread initially to talk about the lightspeed statement as indicated by the topic. One user is not going to drive us to change something that was already fine. I say unless more people have a problem with what we are doing which is totally acceptable as it's a contradiction or as @Tau said, I hyperbole, I see no reason to go out our way to please a minority in this case. --Rai 水 (talk) 02:19, March 21, 2018 (UTC)
 * Rai, quit putting words in my mouth. You are not me, you do not know what I am thinking or what I want. So do not speak for me. I clearly state it's about statements said to have come from the Databook when they didn't. Several times. So I suggest you re'read everything. I only asked once why the Lightspeed was changed, after that I dropped the Lightspeed from the conversation. So again, do not assume to know what I want. And I have read the series. I can argue that Kishimoto stated otherwise, but I haven't have I? So if I wanted to say Haku does have Lightspeed, I'd talk about him having Lightspeed and present my case why I think he does. But I haven't. So do not speak for me again cause you clearly don't read what I say and know what I want. JamesDuh (talk) 02:43, March 21, 2018 (UTC)
 * @Rai. He is right. I just read through all the comments and he's only asked about that part once. After that, he's been asking why you guys had statements listed as coming from the Databook when they didn't. I would refrain from assuming what someone wants. As for the topic at hand. I agree that people shouldn't list the Databook as a source if it doesn't come from it. As for the whole Lightspeed thing, it can be argued. The argument on your guys side is that Haku can't survive that speed, but this is Naruto. Real Life doesn't apply. Gai broke space with his speed. Sakura dodged sound with Substitution. Kakashi has the speed and reflex to cut Lightning. It's clear that the laws of Naruto are way different from our own. So if that's the reason you won't believe Lightspeed is achievable, your argument fails in debate terms. LoneNinja (talk) 02:59, March 21, 2018 (UTC)

Meh, I still don't entirely understand what exactly all of this commotion is about. First of all, we're not changing something because one or two users disagree with it. The wiki is not a democracy. Second, if anyone wants to debate on principles of the wiki, they should do so in the forums, not on a random talk page. Third, @OP, you started this discussion because you wanted to know specifically about the "light speed" issue. We answered your question - it's a hyperbole by the databook and we tend not to use hyperboles. If you have any other concerns, please don't randomly bring them up midway and then accuse others of not understanding what you actually want. '''That said, please consider this discussion over. If you have further questions or concerns, ask me or take it to the forums. Thank you.''' • Seelentau 愛 議 03:16, March 21, 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you @Tau. He knew what the initially problem was, but he decided to expand the issue because he was upset at the answer. We're not gonna sit here make this and issue now when it hasn't been for years. Sorry but we moved on. This is a fan wiki as a said. We do not have to state everything word for word. Jeez by your logic things will be confusind and/or contradictig just to make a few users happy. We are not obligated to do anything. The wiki will continue to prosper as a well informed wiki with or without you. You'd have to get over trying to follow the Databook takes priority because it doesn't or leave. It's really your choice. --Rai 水 (talk) 04:53, March 21, 2018 (UTC)
 * That said, please consider this discussion over. If you have further questions or concerns, ask me or take it to the forums. Thank you. Why are you still going and trying to cause a fight? Drop it. Case closed. LoneNinja (talk) 05:42, March 21, 2018 (UTC)