Talk:Asura Ōtsutsuki

Logical deduction using facts
There have been arguments about Asura having Six Paths Senjutsu. To me the answer is obvious, yes, he did. From what we know, Asura's chakra+Indra's chakra=Hagoromo's chakra. Simply put, merging chakras of Hagoromo's sons recreates Hagoromo's chakra. Hagoromo is known to have had Six Paths Sage Chakra. Asura's avatar has Truth Seeking Balls too so.--Elve Talk Page 10:19, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * But [Asura's chakra =/= Hagoromo's chakra] and [Truth-Seeking Balls unconfirmed]. • Seelentau 愛 議 10:40, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * Point being there's no indication Indra inherited Six Path Sage Chakra, while Truth Seeking Balls are highly likely with Asura along with the Tailed Beast like Avatar.--Elve Talk Page 10:46, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * Neither Indora nor Ashura were said to have inherited SPSC and the black orbs weren't confirmed to be TSBs. • Seelentau 愛 議 10:47, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * If merging their chakras restores Hagoromo's then one of them has to have SPSC and the black orbs i'm aware weren't "confirmed" to be TSB but it's obvious. I mean, Naruto against Sasuke was almost identical to Asura vs Indra, yet you say their avatars and orbs which look almost identical are unrelated? Lawl.--Elve Talk Page 10:58, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * But his chakra is SPSC, if the two each had 50%, why does one have the full 100%? Also, it doesn't matter what I'm saying. Or you. Or anyone. They weren't confirmed to be TSB, so we won't call them that. I can only repeat: It's not our job to correct the manga, neither is it our job to fill in the unexplained gaps. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:05, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * The fact that he has a Chakra Cloak in the chapter where Hagoromo says Naruto is his Reincarnation kind of raises all of your points into question, guys. It'd make more sense if we tried debating whether or not that was a SPSC empowered Form. I mean, it kind of immediately proves that it is, indeed, a Chakra Mode. Think of it this way; Naruto is his Reincarnation. He has Hagoromo's Sage Chakra which everyone else seems to forget. And, most importantly, the fact that his Chakra forms a Cloak implies that he has some sort of connection to the Form in itself. The fact that he has a Cloak means that he has to have one of two abilities 1. The Tensaigan, or 2. Chakra from Kurama. But think of it this way. What does the face of his Battle Avatar resemble the most? It doesn't resemble a fox, does it? It looks like a rabbit's face, instead. Not to mention, if I'm reading the manga correctly, Hagoromo gives Asura his Chakra before he splits the Tailed Beasts up. That means he would have to have some sort of trace of the Beasts in there, right? If you want proof, just look at Boruto and Himawari. They both have the Whisker Marks that Naruto has. Going back to Asura, wouldn't that mean he had the Chakra that he needed to use the SPSC, which, in turn, would allow him the use of the TSB? Since the Chakra would have immediately melded with his own Chakra Network upon receiving, and it would obviously not have the Jyuubi's consciousness inside of it, it is safe to assume that he would gain the ability to utilize a Chakra Shroud, which he does. Therefore, if this is any indication, which it most certainly is, that would mean that his Avatar was a bi-product of receiving Hagoromo's Chakra. In essence, the proof is already supplied. -- User:ExyleCage ExyleCage (talk) 20:39, July 10, 2015 (UTC)

Naruto has/had SPSC, so he has/had 100% of Hagoromo's chakra? Nope. And it's not correcting manga, it's stating the obvious. I'm sure Kishimoto trusts his fans can connect the dots. Naruto is reincarnation of Asura and their avatars and orbs are very similar so it's given they are related.--Elve Talk Page 11:11, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * So Hagoromo's chakra is 100% SPSC, but if you have only 50% of his chakra, you still have SPSC? Then what did Indora get? Logically, he would've gotten SPSC as well. And yes, there are similaritys. They don't mean anything as long as Kishimoto doesn't explain them, though. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:17, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * The problem is, Indra's chakra avatar wasn't stated to be Susanoo either. Yet it's "obvious" and we "correct the manga" and "fill in the gaps" in regards to that, but the same doesn't apply about Asura's chakra avatar because double standards.--Elve Talk Page 11:19, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * Lol no. It's because Indora's chakra avater obviously is Susanoo. You don't need to correct or fill in anything there. Ashura's avatar doesn't look like anything we've seen to date, so we can't name it just because Naruto's fox avatar somewhat looks like Indora's avatar. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:35, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * Just like it's "obvious" to you that Indra's chakra avatar was Susanoo since it looks like other Susanoo, it's "obvious" to me that Asura's chakra avatar was Kurama and his black orbs were TSB. Your "obvious" isn't superior to mine. It hasn't been stated anywhere in manga or databooks (to my knowledge) that Indra used Susanoo, so hence by your own logic it should be removed.--Elve Talk Page 11:39, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * There is no difference between Indora's Susanoo and the others. There IS a difference between Ashura's chakra mode and Naruto's Kurama mode. Additionally, Ashura was never said to be Kurama's Jinchuriki, in fact, Mito was even called its first Jinchuriki. There is no problem in calling Indora's avater Susanoo because it adds up. Ashura having Kurama's chakra does not. Additionally, the black orbs could've been TBB and not TSB. Both are black orbs, so we can't say for sure that they're TSB. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:44, June 21, 2015 (UTC)

That's not the point, your logic was we shouldn't correct and fill in the gaps. Indra's chakra avatar is NO MORE obviously Susanoo than is Shin's Space-Time Tech Kamui, yet we haven't added the latter. The only difference between Ashura and Naruto's is the heads and neck thingy. Also TBB require Tailed Beast chakra, TSB require Six Paths Sage Chakra and FF-Suzaku I believe said it's suggested in the novel Tailed Beast chakra plays role in Six Paths Senjutsu after all (and you say it's fanon I know). One way or another, Ashura was either jinchuuriki or Six Paths Senjutsu user or both.--Elve Talk Page 11:54, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * My point is that Indora's Susanoo isn't something that was filled in by us, while Ashura's avatar obviously would be. This discussions alone are proof enough that we can't simply add it as you want. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:57, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * Except it was filled in by us. It wasn't stated to be Susanoo in any official source, heck, Indra wasn't stated to have had a Mangekyou Sharingan either, it was "filled in" by us that his spiral eye thingy was it.--Elve Talk Page 12:06, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * Elve, maybe that's because it didn't have to be stated by an official source. I think anyone can read the corresponding manga chapter and determine that it was indeed Susanoo. The disconnect here is that you think Asura is obviously using something that isn't obvious to others.--Mina [[Image:Hatake Symbol.svg|20px]] talk 12:12, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * Because there is no other possibility. Same goes for Magnet Release's natures. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:13, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, precisely. We knew his natures via databook, so there was only one obvious choice left. Elve, you yourself stated that Asura was either "jinchuriki" or "SPS", or "both": one out of three possibilities. You're comfortable guessing on which it is?--Mina [[Image:Hatake Symbol.svg|20px]] talk 12:17, June 21, 2015 (UTC)

Hypocrisy is our greatest sin isn't it... Indra's obviously Susanoo because it has most of the characteristics other Susanoo have, Tengu theme and all, still doesn't change the fact it wasn't stated we just assume, thus you shat in your own mouth Seel about "not our job to assume" For the rest, only differences between Ashura and Naruti's avatars is the head and necklace/beads otherwise they are more similar to each other than Indra's Susanoo to Sasuke's, yet they aren't the same thing because double standards. @Minamoto, the novel suggests Tailed Beast chakra is required for Six Paths Senjutsu, if that's true, then it's both.--Elve Talk Page 12:22, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd like to ask which novel suggests that because I don't recall that at all.--Omojuze (talk) 13:16, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * I believe it was the Shikamaru novel. Shikamaru notes that he has all tailed beasts chakra and Six Paths chakra that basically made him a god.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 13:20, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * ^mhh... Thank you. But that doesn't imply anything in regards to requirements of Tailed Beast Chakra to use Rikudō Senjutsu. The sentence doesn't imply anything at all, unless you count "confirmation" that Naruto has kept the Bijū chakra.--Omojuze (talk) 13:23, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * There were also remnants of the other 8 bijuu inside him as well. In that way, you could say he was a human pillar for the power of the Ten Tails. In the last war, Obito had become a human pillar for the Ten Tails and gained chakra rivalling that of the Sage of the Six Paths. Naruto, who’d taken the bijuu into him as well, had some of the Sage’s power even now. - this? (Shikamaru Hiden, Chapter 1/4, between pages 75-85)--Omojuze (talk) 13:27, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * That's correct.--Elve Talk Page 13:51, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * I have not idea if I'm doing this right because I haven't done this in awhile. But, anyway, on to the conversation. Wouldn't it at least be alright to say he possibly had SPSC? I mean, Asura USES something close. Though, we could also argue that he does have it I mean, Hagoromo does say that he entrusted Asura with his power. Arguably, that could mean that he was referring to the SPSC. Though, I'm not saying it does mean he has it. It just means he could. Why not at least add it with a side note suggesting that it's a possibility? We've done it before. I'll use Sasuke as an example. In no way have we seen him use an ability from each of the SP. We've only seen him do something with a few of them. Yet we listed them as abilities nonetheless. Why not do it for Asura, too? Now, I'm gonna attempt to sign this, but I don't know if I remember how.-- User:ExyleCage ExyleCage (talk) 16:58, July 10, 2015 (UTC)

Last Name
Y'know, ever since Ōtsutsuki was added to his and his brother's pages something's been nagging me, but I left it alone. Y'all cite the fourth databook as having given this information. Their names in the databook are literally just given in first name only. I know we were expecting them to be revealed with the full Ōtsutsuki name, but it didn't happen and yet we went ahead and added it as soon as we could. I mean, am I missing something here? Is it actually mentioned somewhere in one or both of the databook articles and Kishi for some reason didn't add it to the title?--ScruffyC (talk) 13:47, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * I think the last names were given in some promotional material in the WSJ or so... • Seelentau 愛 議 13:49, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * I think the reason that they were given "Otsutsuki" is because of the fact that Hagoromo revealed that he had two sons called Asura and Indra and his name was given as "Otsutsuki", so it was logical that their names were the same as well. But honestly, a lot of shit done on this wiki makes little sense anymore and reasoning just becomes wilder and wilder. >_> --Sajuuk Special:Contributions/SuperSajuuk 14:01, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * I understand the logic behind it, and once upon a time I was on the side of adding their names with that reasoning in mind... However, seeing as Kishimoto went to the trouble of not adding the brothers' names as "Ōtsutsuki" in the databook, something I'm positive he thought about (he did confirm Hamura's name as such), I'm hesitant to seal the deal, y'know? But if there's promo material confirming it, I'm happy. ScruffyC (talk) 14:07, June 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * Talk:Indra_Ōtsutsuki and http://i.imgur.com/cj9LQHi.jpg 14:27, June 21, 2015 (UTC)

~/Battle Avatar/~
Again, I have no idea if I'm doing this right, but at least I'm trying, right? Anyway, on to the discussion. Now, I know we've all been thinking this. The Battle Avatar. Why isn't it listed as a technique? We all know it's a technique, so why not add it as a technique in his Jutsu Category? It's kind of common sense, if you ask me. But I'll leave it up to you guys since all I ever do is fix grammar. So, anyway, if it is a technique, can we add it? Again, no idea if I'm signing this right, but I'll give it a try.-- User:ExyleCage ExyleCage (talk) 17:06, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
 * We have no name and no information on what it is capable to do. Neither do we know how he achieved it. So there's no information a separate article on the avatar would have, that Asura's article not has. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:25, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
 * That isn't what I meant. We could put it in his Jutsu category as 'Battle Avatar' or something like that. -- User:ExyleCage ExyleCage (talk) 19:59, July 10, 2015 (UTC)
 * That's not how it works. The character box's technique are autmatically included. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:02, July 10, 2015 (UTC)

Um, we have articles on many techniques that we don't know anything about their workings.--Elve Talk Page 02:48, July 11, 2015 (UTC)
 * I know and I don't like that, either. But what's done has been done. No need to make the list even longer. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:20, July 11, 2015 (UTC)
 * What I was referring to was making it a Jutsu, but not giving it its own page.--User:ExyleCage ExyleCage (talk) 14:26, July 11, 2015 (UTC)
 * I know, but that's not possible. The jutsu list in the characterbox is created based on the jutsu that have the character listed as a user. For a jutsu to appear in that list, it would have to have an article. • Seelentau 愛 議 14:34, July 11, 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh! I get it now!--User:ExyleCage ExyleCageWasHere 14:57, July 11, 2015 (UTC)

We have an article on Ball of Light Technique filler non-canonical "technique" we know zero about, but not this hmph.--Elve Talk Page 14:54, July 11, 2015 (UTC)

Anime
So anime has Asura's Battle Avatar glowing in the same yellow/orange glame like Naruto with black orbs made in the same way the Truth-Seeking Balls are. So are we going to argue about it now or later?--TheUltimate3 (talk) 16:34, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * And to get this out the way, no; not liking/caring about the anime does not negate the fact that as of now it actually provides us something we can use to answer this.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 16:36, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, from what I remember, the discussions about this only ever involved the Tailed Beast Mode, but never the Six Paths Sage Mode. I can imagine him having the latter. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:49, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Fantastic, I can work with Six Paths Sage Mode.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 17:28, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Yay... finally. I love you Ulti <3 It's quite obvious the power Hagoromo mentioned he had given to Asura was the same thing he would eventually give to Naruto, Six Paths Sage Chakra or whatever. Asura vs Indra and Naruto vs Sasuke are parallels, with the difference that Indra incarnate (Sasuke) was given power too this time. But how does avatar prove Six Paths Sage Mode? The Truth Seeking Balls do. The avatar looks like Kurama Mode, almost identical shape with the sole exception of the heads, almost identical seal pattern, with the sole exception of neck beads and the color is the same according to anime.--Elve Talk Page 19:03, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * It looks like the Six Paths Sage Mode as well. Both have the golden colour and unlike Kurama Mode, you don't need to be a jinchuriki to use the SPSM. Ashura was never said to be a jinchuriki, so it makes more sense that he used the SPSM. Going from that, the black orbs are more likely to be TSB than TBB. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:08, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

Didn't the databook show SPSM as Naruto's toad-fox cross eyes without SM pigmentation, without any cloak? If in Naruto's case SPSM is cross eyes, the cross is made not only because of toad eyes, but fox eyes - Kurama's as well, which requires him to be jinchuuriki.--Elve Talk Page 19:13, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * That's like saying "Because Naruto had toad-fox cross eyes when he met Nagato, being a Jinchuriki is a requirement to use Senjutsu". • Seelentau 愛 議 19:15, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Good point, just saying the fox part was there when he awakened it.--Elve Talk Page 19:19, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, from my understanding, not even the cloak is part of SPSM because the article shows Naruto kicking the TSB, something he did while he didn't even have the cloak up... • Seelentau 愛 議 19:20, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * That was my point above, the cloak isn't part of SPSM so you can't deduce Asura's avatar as SPSM. If I get it correctly, Six Paths Senjutsu is Six Paths Chakra (which is Hagoromo's chakra I believe?) that allows usage of Yin-Yang Release + Senjutsu Chakra, thus Six Paths Sage Chakra. That doesn't explain Asura's avatar though, with striking resemblance to Kurama :)--Elve Talk Page 19:25, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Then again, the Six Paths Senjutsu is characterised by the tomoe pattern on the user's back, something that only appeared with the cloak. And no, we don't know what exatly Six Paths Senjutsu is, it isn't mentioned in the databook at all, from what I know. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:29, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

In The Last intro, the pattern appears on Hagoromo's back after he becomes his mom's jinch. You can see in the manga it wasn't there when he and Hamura fought her. So I would say the back thing isn't sign of SPS especially since the databook showed Naruto kicking the TSB and it's not there without jinch cloak.--Elve Talk Page 19:32, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, but Madara attributed the pattern to Six Paths Senjutsu. Nothing we can do about that. And what if Hagoromo only gained it after he sealed the TT? • Seelentau 愛 議 19:35, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * He didn't, Naruto's back was shown when he said it bloomed inside him. If Hagoromo got SPS from TT and becoming TT jinch gives the back pattern, then Tailed Beast chakra is required for Six Paths Senjutsu after all. And I believe the databook said Six Paths Senjutsu grants chakra omniscience and omnipotence or so?--Elve Talk Page 19:39, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, Naruto's back was shown at the same time Madara said Naruto had the SPS. That's a connection made by the author. Basic storytelling.
 * Tailed Beast chakra =/= TT's chakra. And yes, the databook is much about all those mythical words. Read my translation^^ • Seelentau 愛 議 19:42, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * The back thingy is shown to be something TT jinchuuriki have. Hagoromo becomes TT jinch - gets back thingy. Obito becomes TT jinch - gets back thingy. Madara becomes TT jinch - gets back thingy. In the databooks, Naruto was stated to have been pseudo TT jinch or something, had back thingy (not anymore, presumably because the chakras of other 8 Tailed Beasts are gone) So I don't think the back thingy = SPS, more like back thingy = TT jinch, TT jinch = SPS.--Elve Talk Page 20:20, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * The back things is shown to be something SPS user have. Hagoromo used SPS - gets back thingy. Obito used SPS - gets back thingy. Madara used SPS - gets back thingy. Naruto used SPS - gets back thingy. :) • Seelentau 愛 議 20:23, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

Read again, my point is becoming TT jinch grants back thingy and SPS, so by having one you have the other by extension, but it's not exactly back thingy = SPS. Simply put, back thingy isn't proof of SPS, it's proof of being TT jinch and TT jinch means having SPS. Hopefully you understand that. But back on topic, I truly believe Naruto against Sasuke completely paralleled Asura against Indra, meaning equal powers, kinda like "past repeats itself" and "it ends where it began" or so. I don't think we are going to get any explanation and I believe Kishimoto himself said he trusts we can connect the dots, not to mention we have far greater speculation in other articles.--Elve Talk Page 20:32, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * But it is "back marking = SPS marking". Madara made that allusion. This is basic reading comprehension, come on. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:53, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * As I said, I see it more like "back marking = TT jinch marking" "being TT jinch = having SPS" so Six Paths Senjutsu =/= back marking, but back marking = Six Paths Senjutsu. I'm positive Kaguya uses Six Paths Senjutsu too, yet she has no back marking. That's because she isn't and can't be a jinchuuriki of herself, so there's no sign of being TT jinchuuriki since she merged with Shinju is the TT herself/itself.--Elve Talk Page 20:58, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * But Naruto never was the TT jinchuriki so that can't be it. I also believe that the SPS started with Hagoromo. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:01, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * The databooks actually call Naruto TT jinch in some parts, unless it's mistranslation or my misunderstanding. Kaguya exhibits flight, TSB - you know, stuff attributed to SPS. Also if Hagoromo having become TT jinch gave him SPS, how can Kaguya not have it, since she can transform into it?--Elve Talk Page 21:10, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * It doesn't, no. Onoki flys as well. Kaguya doesn't use the normal TSB, she created them from the chakra of the shinobi she caught. • Seelentau 愛 議 22:11, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Ignoring this grand discussion about Naruto's back, but can we at least agree that Asura's Battle Avatar stems from Six Paths Sage Mode now?--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 22:18, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * I mean, we aren't going to get a smoking gun with this, if he didn't care enough to say it in the Databook he's not going to say it now that the series is over, but based on appearance alone we at least got that going.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 22:19, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

I'm almost sure of it... either FF-Suzaku's translation or on forums. Onoki uses a technique, you think if you got Onoki's chakra you would magically start to fly? Those with her power get flight, so it's reasonable her own flight is the same thing, even suggesting otherwise is ridiculous. And so? She used their chakras, but she executed the technique, would Sakura be able to use TSB with chakras of others?--Elve Talk Page 22:21, July 25, 2015 (UTC)


 * Seriously Koto Senju is adding it to the articles and I believe they should stick.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 22:28, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Tehe Koto Senju in "enough of this" mode. I too believe they should probably stick. The anime rendering speaks for itself, but strictly on the grounds of "it can't be anything else". So let's decide, we gonna add Asura for SPSM?--Mina [[Image:Hatake Symbol.svg|20px]] talk 22:36, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Obviously, still the issue though, can you have Six Paths Senjutsu without Tailed Beast chakra?--Elve Talk Page 22:40, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Wait a second, Elve can you briefly explain what you're getting at? Reading through this, it seems you're trying to say that Asura was a jinchuriki. Am I reading that wrong?--Mina [[Image:Hatake Symbol.svg|20px]] talk 22:48, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * You're not. 23:00, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * This whole discussion existing is exactly why I'm so often against adding these things. Kishi messed up his manga with missing information and it's not our job to fix that. Because there is no true solution. • Seelentau 愛 議 23:06, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

/flipstable--TheUltimate3 (talk) 23:40, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Wow, Seelentau and I actually agree on something. 23:58, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Don't get me wrong, I absolutely see his point. I just don't see anything wrong with doing what's sensible using logical deduction and facts. I mean, it isn't like we haven't done so with other things around here. This case here seems more difficult to pin down only because we're not entirely sure the Tailed Beast chakra is even necessary. Too bad Kishi doesn't seem to give a rats ass, and seems content on leaving it to the consumers.--Mina [[Image:Hatake Symbol.svg|20px]] talk 00:20, July 26, 2015 (UTC)
 * Databook says that Rikudo Chibaku Tensei is SPS technique so Hagoromo using before becoming TT jin means SPS doesn't require TT chakra. / Rage gtx (talk) 00:54, July 26, 2015 (UTC)

inheritance fetish
Explain me this please, it's been bugging me for many years now. The manga said Asura's inheritance is "body" which are his father's life force and physical energy. For some reason, people have the need to add "stamina" everywhere and say large chakra reserves and all that bullshit, why can't we just say what the official sources do, why is there need to assume? We don't know what life force exactly is and what it means to have strong physical energy. Things like stamina/large chakra reserves are fanon, so why is it everywhere i look?--Elve Talk Page 19:22, July 25, 2015 (UTC)