Talk:Son Gokū

Animal
Ive seen youtube videos saying that it is a Phenox. Where are people getting this? --7th Body (talk) 01:37, 3 April 2009 (UTC) 7th Body --7th Body (talk) 01:37, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * They are just using their imagination. Jacce | Talk 05:02, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Corrosion Style?
I just read the viz translated version and it said instead of Yoton or Lava it said Corrosion. Should we change it to that? Saimaroimaru (talk) 20:54, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I found it in the english released manga, lets see manga vol. 40 or 39 I think. Saimaroimaru (talk) 21:49, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Discussion at Talk:Rōshi. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 3, 2009 @ 22:06 (UTC)

Delete?
I know that we know it can conrole lava, but since we have no idea (yet) what sort of animal it is, should we delete it?

Concept
According to the Artbook, looks like Yonbi is based from the Ohzaru transformation from Goku (Dragon Ball). But I don't know what does the description say exactly since I know very little of Japanese. The Bijuu concept page is here: .Queproblematico (talk) 19:43, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
 * More misinformation. Just because things from different anime look like they have a connection does not mean that one is based off the other. 99% of these cases are simply because both anime used the same Japanese legend, myth, or piece of history as a base. Saying that the Yonbi is based on Dragon Ball is like saying the Nine-Tailed Demon Fox is based on Pokemon. Do some research and find out what Japanese legend they are both based on. Wikipedia can be very helpful for that kind of info. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Jul 4, 2009 @ 01:52 (UTC)
 * Actually, ShounenSuki, being as awesome as he is, translated it for us....Its in Talk Tailed Beasts. ANd there is a slight connection to the "monster ape from Dragon Ball's Son Gokū"...Its worth a read....Very intresting....-- AlienGamer--Talk-- 01:58, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Aye. Got that from the Boss Translator himself. Kishimoto is a odd one isn't he.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 02:14, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Now this is a interesting problem isn't it. We have the page (Thank you Queproblematico) right there and I can't read it.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 02:21, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Name
Couldnt it be called the Four-Tailed Demon Ape? AMTNinja (talk) 08:38, 22 July 2009 (UTC)


 * This.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 09:37, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

No, or it could be the fout tailed wukong or goku or the 4 tailed red ape or something more better than just ape.

Affilation
Isn't Iwa it's affilation?--81.219.163.231 (talk) 20:46, March 13, 2010 (UTC)

Four Tails Powers
i read a translation of of the databook 3 and it said, "At his wandering's end, he understood he could borrow Yonbi's chakra to fuse fire and earth nature into lava ninjutsu" this seems to be saying that the chakra allowed him to mix the two not that the tailed beasts power was creating lava release, but to mix chakra natures, but i couldnt find out if the book originally said what Roshi's natures were but i guess he had earth and fire and with the beast he was able to mix them, thats what the translation seems to me to be saying what you think
 * Look for talk archives in related articles such as Rōshi and Lava Release, it's all explained there. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:38, September 30, 2010 (UTC)

Naruto Shippūden Episode #165?
In the data box under the picture, it refers to "Naruto Shippūden Episode #165", where Naruto is in Sage mode and battles Pain. What does that fight have to do with this Four-Tailed Lava beast?
 * In the anime, when Pain is describing his plan to make a kinjutsu with the Tailed Beasts, there's sequence showing all the tailed beasts, a sequence which wasn't in the manga. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:30, February 19, 2011 (UTC)

Monkey fire breath
Why is this listed as anime only, in the databook artwork for the series it is shown spitting green flames in its artwork (which is also the one used to illustrate it on it's own page) Shouldn't this warrant removal of anime only status?
 * Wouldn't that 'fire breath' simply be the Yonbi's Yōton? —ShounenSuki (talk 21:54, April 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Doesn't seem like lava. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:59, April 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * be that as it may, the artbook shows that image and specifically states it spits lava from its mouth. —ShounenSuki (talk 22:14, April 2, 2011 (UTC)
 * Relatedly. ~SnapperTo 22:22, April 2, 2011 (UTC)

But the fire is a physically shown trait in both the artwork and in the anime. It can physically spit green fire, I believe this should remain in the traits section

Element fusions
As i read in the manga, Kisame stated that the four-tailed monkey used many different element fusions, which states that it didn't only used Lava Release.
 * You read a mistranslation. —ShounenSuki (talk 14:57, September 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Is it really too much to wish people would dig through talk pages and archives before asking questions like these? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:26, September 24, 2011 (UTC)

The name
uh... are you sure about the Kanji (here too)? Also, why is the article's name Son Goku, when the Kanji are transcribed as Son Gokū? Seelentau 愛議 16:18, December 26, 2011 (UTC)
 * I did see the name with and without macron so i dunno maybe we'll have to wait for Shounensuki on that one. I'm assuming the kanji for Kurama's name comes from the Kurama Clan article.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 16:20, December 26, 2011 (UTC)
 * You're making this too easy. First of all, it is true that the name of Sūn Wùkōng is written as 孫悟空, but that doesn't mean anything. Kishimoto-sensei could have altered the name, as he did here, for example. Furthermore, 空 is read as くう kū, that's why his name's Son Gokū. Also, why should the Kyūbi have the same Kanji as some unrelevant filler characters?^^ Seelentau 愛議 16:24, December 26, 2011 (UTC)

My guess would be that they simply took the kanji name from the dragon ball character he is named after. Wheter this is right or not, i cannot say.--Cosmikaze (talk) 16:27, December 26, 2011 (UTC)
 * I s'pose that's why we use raws. I do think that Son's name should have the 'ū' macron though.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 16:29, December 26, 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually the dragon ball Son Goku's name if directly translated would be Son Gokū. Why they choose to call him Goku instead i can't say since i dont know Japaneese (But he has acutally been called both Son Goku, Son Gokuu, Son Gokū and Son Gokuh in official artwork and material).--Cosmikaze (talk) 16:50, December 26, 2011 (UTC)

It calls himself as "Sage King of Apes", right? Why didn't you add that name in the infobox as a nice name? Shakhmoot (talk) 18:57, December 26, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, and also Cerez365, yes I get it from Kurama clan article. --Ilnarutoanime -NejiLoverr- 18:59, December 26, 2011 (UTC)
 * About the big name, I think it's probably a good idea to wait until a raw, so we don't need to change it so much. We might still have to move this page, considering how his name is translated. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:09, December 26, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm 99,9% sure that it's written with a makron. But we don't translate names here, right? So it's just Son Goku => Son Gokū and no literal translation of the Kanji, huh? Seelentau 愛議 20:53, December 26, 2011 (UTC)

Pronunciation
Oy. this is probably just useless spam but it's been bugging me, just how is the son in son goku's name pronounced, i mean is it pronounced like the male family member son or sone or so-nnn?98.26.243.10 (talk) 05:46, December 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * You've never watched Dragon Ball? It's pronounced like the 'male family member' as you put it.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 14:21, December 27, 2011 (UTC)

Suiren Cave
Naruto: Chapter 568, page 10

I might be wrong, the translation could be false, but does he not speak of the Suiren Cave of which he's the king of? Also, he mentions that he's the sage of that place too, which does make me think of the three current sage area's...

Hopefully I'm right, would be exciting to know that an Ape Sage Mode exists too! :D Derigar (talk) 05:29, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm, nevermind. I searched in the wikia and apparently we already had a discussion about this. Ignore this post >:O


 * :p Derigar (talk) 05:34, April 16, 2012 (UTC)

Kekkei Genkai
Is there a reason we don't list Lava Release as its Kekkei Genkai? Seelentau 愛議 09:37, February 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Aren't Kekkei Genkai passed on via blood connection? I don't know, that doesn't sound like anything that could count for Tailed Beasts as well... Idontcareaboutmyname (talk) 11:30, February 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, but to mix two natures and thus create an advanced nature is called a Kekkei Genkai, too. Also, Tailed Beasts can bleed. Seelentau 愛議 11:35, February 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * From what I remember, this was discussed years ago and ShounenSuki stated that tailed beasts, being tailed beasts didn't have kekkei genkai, that kekkei genkai was a human trait, and animals and beasts just kinda...do stuff on their own. Honestly I'm fine with whatever.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:24, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

I think the whole "tailed beasts are nothing but living chakra" thing has been sort of disproved a bit, I mean they were thought to be primitive forces of nature full of hatred and shi* tied to many myths and prejudices from ignorance and fear, kinda like people thinking storms, tsunami, earthquakes and so on are wrath of Gods. In my opinion they are no less real and alive than Kakashi let's say. They think, have emotions, they sleep, they have flesh, can get hurt and die and so on (with their revival being the most supernatural thing about them) I don't see a reason why shouldn't they have DNA. They are made of chakra only when sealed, but who says it's true only for them? For all we know everything sealed with fuuinjutsu changes state temporarily. For example Orochimaru wasn't slithering through Sasuke's digestive system, he was just chakra and soul inside of him and Samui&Atsui are either dead or chakra as well for a while now. Same for things like kunai and shuriken, they don't cease to exist when in scrolls, just aren't corporeal until unsealed. With us handing anime's canonical status differently from filler to filler, this likely isn't to be of much evidence, but we could see cloning of Gyuki's horn ._. Just because they are embodied fragments of a deity tree's chakra given mind and form from nothing by Jesus doesn't mean they aren't beings, creatures, characters.

Short version, advanced nature = kekkei genkai.--Elveonora (talk) 13:47, February 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * I suppose that's also something which would be easier to solve with a fact policy. Juuust saiyan. So Kekkei Genkai it is. :x Seelentau 愛議 13:51, February 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * Kay.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:06, February 10, 2014 (UTC)

I don't really think we should list this Lava Release as kekkei genkai. I mean, by definition, that's an ability that stems from a genetic trait. Can we really say that a tailed beast has genetic traits in that sense? I'll only be truly convinced when an official source unambiguously calls it a kekkei genkai. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:43, February 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * /shrug Despite being massive beasts of chakra given flesh, the tailed beasts are of flesh and possess and seem to possess bodily fluids (everything leaking out of the Six-Tails, I noticed and laughed at the Two-Tails drooling after getting sucker punched by Madara, the Eight-Tails bled a lot during the battle) We already list them as using elements (Hello Shukaku and your Wind Release) and the whole Advanced Nature mess.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 15:47, February 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh, I forgot to mention they also age. @Omni, let me just ask you: if Son Goku's Lava Release isn't genetic, why is he the only one out of the 9 to have it? If they were just "chakra incarnate" of the Ten-Tails, all of them would have the same powers, meaning his Lava Release doesn't stem from chakra but something else, body.--Elveonora (talk) 22:19, February 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Should we also add it to techniques' classification?--LeafShinobi (talk) 00:45, February 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * You mean Roshi's? No, because he used it through tailed beast skill. But the Lava techniques used by the actual beast/Roshi transformed should be classified as Kekkei Genkai tho--Elveonora (talk) 11:12, February 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Rōshi used Yōton the same way Kakashi uses the Sharingan, I think. Seelentau 愛議 11:55, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Isn't it a little erroneous to call Son Gokū's Lava release a kekkei genkai with 100% certainty? A kekkei genkai is, by definition, an ability passed down genetically, something we have no evidence of being done or doable in Son Gokū's case. His Lava release is also different from the other two we've seen, and is unique to him/those he inhabits. It seems more like Shukaku's sand to me.--Soul reaper (talk) 12:26, February 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Elv/Seel It is exactly like Kakashi and his Sharingan. Or Kabuto and his everything.
 * @Soul reaper: We actually had a long discussion here about just this sort of thing. Basically, past evidence points that, in this case, ANRs are done via kekkei genkai, so kekkei genkai it is until proven otherwise.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:32, February 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * But surely we have to look at all angles of a situation? I mean, yes, for an advanced nature its generally pretty safe to say they're the result of a kekkei genkai when we're talking about other characters, but that's because the other character all have a set of rules applied to them stemming from their being human. I think it's a bit much to conclude that because something is true for a human, it must be true for a tailed beast. They have a completely different make up and rule set. While they do have physical form, and blood and drool, they are still an embodiment of chakra. They were made from a monster that was also a tree and when they die it's temporary. To assume that a tailed beasts power is a kekkei genkai because humans with a similar power obtain it through kekkei genkai just doesn't make much sense to me.--Soul reaper (talk) 12:42, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

We did look at all the angles. Again, in that discussion. So far, being living chakra has not stopped them from doing nature releases, bleeding, aging, ect. The only thing that separates them from any other living thing on the planet is that they came from the Ten-Tails. As so far, we know the only way to mix two natures is through a kekkei genkai and yeah.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 13:00, February 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Why would living chakra stop them from using nature release? Nature release is done using chakra. Anyway, I still don't agree that it is, without a doubt kekkei genkai, but I guess if so many people have discussed it that much and come to the conclusion there's not much point arguing about it anymore.--Soul reaper (talk) 13:09, February 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, Mei's Yōton is a Kekkei Genkai, so by our logic, Son's is it, too. Either that or we create two separate articles for each Yōton. Seelentau 愛議 13:16, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

@SoulReaper, using an advanced nature requires a specific to the nature unique genetics so the user can mix two basic natures that make it up. Son Goku is the only Tailed Beast capable of doing so, so if it were any different for them than result of genetics in humans, all Tailed Beasts (and by extension their jinchuuriki) would have advanced natures. Take it Sage of Six Path created each of them unique.--Elveonora (talk) 14:25, February 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's a pretty odd conclusion to jump to and I honestly don't see how you could logically jump to such a dramatic conclusion--Soul reaper (talk) 15:08, February 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Appears quite logical of a conclusion to me. But I'm eager to hear your version better--Elveonora (talk) 15:10, February 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * I was more talking about your claim that "all Tailed Beasts (and by extension their jinchuuriki) would have advanced natures" of it wasn't a kekkei genkai. There's absolutely nothing to support such a claim. We don't even know if all Tailed Beasts have a nature type. In the manga we've only seen Matatabi and Shukuku using a basic nature type, and Son Goku using an advanced nature type. Son Goku's having control over lava has no baring on the other tailed beasts' powers, regardless of whether its kekkei genkai or not.--Soul reaper (talk) 03:40, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

Every chakra leans towards a nature. The only way to use Lava is with a Kekkei Genkai, if it could be done without it in case of a Tailed Beast, it's logical to conclude all 9 would be able to do so, there's no reason why would it be unique to Son in that case.--Elveonora (talk) 12:03, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

Naruto edition
So, Naruto being able to use Son's Lava Release brings this up again. I still maintain that Son's LR shouldn't be considered a kkg. It still is a FR and ER mix, but it's not a kkg. Shinju's jinchūriki creates a mix of at least four elements, but I don't see anyone rushing to call it a bloodline ability, or create an unnamed kkg-like page for the mix. It's very clearly an ability derived from the tailed beast. Same with Son. I'm making this topic partially because LR has yet to be added to Naruto's infobox (at least as I'm typing this), and I'd like to appeal on it being considered a kkg for Son and those who get LR from having its chakra. As far as I'm concerned, the only difference in Son's LR is that it's a tailed beast skill, not a kkg. It still mixes ER and FR, so those two natures belong in the infoboxes of those who use Son's LR, but no addition of LR as kkg for Naruto and Roshi, just in the nature transformation. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:14, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I disagree with you on the first thing. I say LR should stay as a KKG for Son Goku until we are told otherwise. Because otherwise he would be the only character that is an exception to the rule that advanced natures require KKG and the only Tailed Beasts capable of doing so from 9, which is illogical. For its jinchuuriki Roshi, perhaps we should remove it as a KKG from him, but still please, not the best itself.--Elveonora (talk) 18:19, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Right. I guess we shouldn't put Son Gokū's (or at least its jinchūriki's) Lava Release as Kekkei Genkai. Maybe a trivia mention in the Lava Release page would solve all problems.--JOA20 (talk) 18:21, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Having Son have it as a kkg means that their jinchūriki would also have it as a kekkei genkai. It'd akin to Deidara's clay, hiden and kkg, only in this case, tbs and kkg. It makes no sense for the main source to be kkg, but not when it or part of it is sealed inside a host, which draws power from it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:24, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then we keep it for Roshi as a kkg too if you insist so much :P Seriously, we don't:


 * Know how it worked in case of Son and Roshi
 * If Naruto truly can't combine fire-earth on his own now... just because he asked for the chakra isn't a confirmation that he can't, since he doesn't know fire or earth. Unless you believe that having an elemental KKG magically grants you knowledge/ability to use the natures which make it up since birth or something without having to learn them first.--Elveonora (talk) 18:37, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, who taught Hashirama how to use Wood Release then? But well...--JOA20 (talk) 18:43, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Do we also remember Haku? His parents died, and even if Zabuza taught him ninjutsu in general, there's no way he taught him Ice Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:46, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

I meant it in a way that Haku could have learned Wind and Water releases first and then figured out the rest. The anime-only ice dome technique didn't show up in the manga anyway, I believe.--Elveonora (talk) 18:54, April 12, 2014 (UTC)


 * It was in the manga too. I forget the chapter but it was definitely there. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:56, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Correction, Ice Dome is another technique, I mean this Certain-Kill Ice Spears--Elveonora (talk) 18:58, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Still doesn't answer who he would have learned Ice Release from. And there's also Hashirama's case, which JOA20 brought up. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:00, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Simple, Ice Mirrors was Haku's original technique, not... EDIT: article says it's a clan technique, which still means someone had to have taught him? 0_o Unless he figured it out instinctively. For Hashirama, he wasn't shown using any Wood Release in his childhood either--Elveonora (talk) 19:02, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd say that one can learn by themselves, as long as they have the skills to do it.--JOA20 (talk) 19:07, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * How to use Ice Release and in fact develop the technique, he'd have to be self-taught with Ice Release. Hashirama would have to have learned Wood Release at some point, and as its earliest known user, he'd have to have discovered it by himself. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:08, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Here is how I think it should be done. Gaara inherited his sand abilities from Shukaku. Even after the beast was extracted, he retained its abilities, same as Obito retained his ability to make Truth-Seeking Balls (though the source is debatable) after losing the Ten-Tails. Naruto is going to have to be listed as a user of Lava Release (and its break-down natures), since to not do so would be ignoring he precedent set by Gaara, but since the Lava Release is not a product of Naruto's bloodline (the definition of a bloodline limit is a genetic trait that allows one to mix two chakras into an advanced one), we don't list it as a kekkei genkai. Only a nature he has uses of (thanks to Son Gokū). As to Son Gokū, the definition of a kekkei genkai, as I've said, is gentic. It very well can be his kekkei genkai. But his jinchūriki do not possess his blood, ero, it is not their kekkei genkai. To sum it up. Rōshi remains a user of Earth, Fire, and Lava Release but we will no longer list it as his kekkei genkai. Naruto gets added as an Earth, Fire, and Lava Release user, but, again, not as a kekkei genkai. Son Gokū, on the other hand, get listed as a user and as a Kekkei Genkai, because we have precedent for a kekkei genkai appearing in a tailed beast (Ten-Tails and the Sharingan). Thoughts? ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20:51, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think Naruto shouldn't be listed at all, he was just given molded chakra. Listing him as Lava user would be like listing him as Water Release user too since he did the combo with Yamato back there.--Elveonora (talk) 20:56, April 12, 2014 (UTC)


 * Doesn't matter. The chakra of the beast is in him. He asked for Son's chakra same as he does with Kurama as of late and then he used the nature. Its important that you realize that. He used it. Just like he uses Kurama's chakra when he goes KCM. He gets listed. That's going to happen either way. What we need to decide is if he gets listed as a kekkei genkai user for doing so, and I say not. Edit: Also, bad example. Yamato used Suiton back then. There is a big difference. Son is not helping him preform the technique. Naruto is using Son's chakra, just like a jinchūriki uses their Bijū's chakra, to preform it. Naruto is doing so himself. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 20:58, April 12, 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree with TTF (Kuroiraikou (talk) 21:04, April 12, 2014 (UTC))

No, Naruto isn't using the Yoton nature himself. All he does is just add the by "Son Goku" molded chakra to his Rasenshuriken. No different than Cursed Seals users using Senjutsu chakra for example, or the shinobi alliance Bijuu chakra. For all we know, Naruto may have actually inherited the ability to mold Yoton chakra of his own, but until we are told or shown so, he isn't to be listed.--Elveonora (talk) 21:06, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree with almost everything you said TTF, except for the part of keeping Son as a kekkei genkai user. We have a precedent for a tailed beast with a kekkei genkai, yes, but that doesn't change the minimum four nature mix as a precedent for not calling a tailed beast based nature mix a bloodline ability. Elveonora, as long as the tailed beast chakra is in him, the chakra is his to use. If you think like that, Roshi wouldn't be listed as a Lava Release user because the chakra isn't his, the ability to use Yoton has been linked to the Four-Tails since it was first mentioned. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:08, April 12, 2014 (UTC)