Board Thread:Theories and Speculation/@comment-36157725-20180816213118/@comment-31099706-20180818120243

Sasuke figured out that Madara's limbo has an overlap time, and that it gets back for a while. He then figured out how it works in that very short period of time, which even if you don't consider as something, Madara considers it to be a feat. A feat good enough to make him overthink everything he did, while he was just inches towards his plan

CombatIQmatters wrote: His plan didn't work. His plan was a mere speed blitz, which everyone has done at one point or another, so what's so unique about it? His plan worked. They captured Madara, him escaping wasn't a part of it. They sealed Madara as planned, and that was the end of it.

div class="quote"> CombatIQmatters wrote: He was duped by a body replacement technique, something you learn in the academy, which he would have seen coming because it was obvious that madara's clone could leave madara's body or vice versa, sasuke himself witnessed that yet he forgot not more than a minute later. It wasn't a body replacement jutsu, body replacement jutsus are more or less tricks to make your opponent hit your cloned replacement thinking it's the real one. This was a literall replacement done by Madara. They literally switched places, the real Madara was caught and then he switched himself towards his clone. And NO, Madara did not switch between his clones before that time, I don't know where you picked that up from. Madara only used it once, and it was during when he got caught. So, no, he didn't witness that and forget about it later on, cause it didn't happen before that. div class="quote"> CombatIQmatters wrote: Madara not only escaped, he also deduced the effective range of his teleporation technique. This could have been avoided if sasuke's plan was more complex than a speed blitz, and I already listed one in my previous comment. You say sasuke broke everything down about limbo, yet the next second he got tricked by limbo... Madara got a gist of Sasuke's distance limit after he saw him not being able to reach him, there wasn't much deduction there, was it?

The plan you mentioned is nothing more than unnecessary extra work added to the plan Sasuke made. And Madara wouldn't simply use his Limbo, and they will not know what he would have in mind, like the more seconds they waste, the more Madara can make a counter plan. And your plan has a little hole in it, cause both Naruto and Sasuke weren't aware of the clone switch ability in Limbo prior to the plan, unlike how you stated them to know about. So without knowing about the Limbo switch thing, they couldn't go for something like that. And to be honest, your plan is similar to how they did after they witnessed Madara switching between his clones. So, yeah, IF they saw him doing it before then, they would have gone for somethibg like that. But that wasn't the case here. So, Sasuke's plan as I've mentioned was risk free. And they got him, they actually caught him and would have sealed him before, if they knew about the switch thing. div class="quote"> CombatIQmatters wrote: Shikumaru's dad only has awareness of surroundings? I disagree, the ten tails surely didn't think so, when shikaku came up with a strategy, utilizing the alliance and all their combined skills on the fly, to temporarily blind and immobilze ten tails like it was a piece of cake. You're talking about that time where they caught the mindless beast and thought they trapped him, until it was later shown that it was just standing still and powering up to a more stronger version of it?

And if you're talking about simplicity, isn't even that a little simple? He made the clan that uses shadow binding jutsu to use shadow binding jutsu to capture the Ten Tails right on(It wasn't some kind of a trap or trick like how Shikamaru used to do) he then told every other jutsu specilist to do their own special jutsu in a combination that isn't exactly that complex. div class="quote"> CombatIQmatters wrote: Shikamaru and his dad are limited by a lack of hax, nothing else. I said if you put them in sasuke's place and were given his abilities, they would have come up with a better strategy, even better than obito or madara. The key to beating someone like madara isn't going in"simple", in fact it requires the opposite. Why? Because madara has overwhelming experience. In order to combat someone's experience, you need to show them something they won't see coming, and in order to do that you have to break them down and study them, their habits, abilities, mindset, and then attack their weaknesses. Nothing simple about pulling that off. Shikamaru is overrated in alot of things, the trick he pulls off is level as the ones the other characters do. What makes him special is him not being that strong, and so he uses the fact that his opponent doesn't think highly of him and isn't much aware of the surroundings to his advantage. Both Hidan and that Sand Sibling was defeated because of that. It was made into a big feat because no one expected him to be able to do it. If you take a look around, then every character also has a same level to grasp and plan according to their situation, Neji, Sasuke, Naruto, Itachi, Kidamaru(The one that fought Neji) and almost every other character had it too. Prove me wrong, if you want to.

And what would Shikamaru, if given the powers of Sasuke would do? May I remind you that he will not know about the switch thing, just like Sasuke? div class="quote"> CombatIQmatters wrote: I'm sorry but Danzo suffered PIS for sure. attacking susano'o with a kunai? not teleporting inside sasuke's susano'o and killing him when he can literally respawn anywhere with izanagi, and then kill sasuke while he is coughing up blood from susano'o damage ? Falling for sasuke's second genjutsu, after he casually saw through the first? spamming and wasting izanagi? not using kotoamatsukami when shisui's eye was restored? Karin isn't dumb, and neither is sasuke, but the average mind could understand izanagi after seeing it as many times as they did. IT's basic pattern recognition. Realistically, even though I'm defending obito here over sasuke, both obito and sasuke should have lost to danzo once koto was busted out. As he have mentioned, Danzo did not have grasp over how strong the Susanoo is, it was his own foolishness to test it's durability that brought him to his quick death and well, he had ten lives, so he wasn't being picky about it. If you observe carefully, he made a counter plan for Sasuke's Susanoo after getting a grasp over how strong it was. A shinobi must know the strength of his opponent and his jutsu to make a counter plan for him/her, or else it will be an even more foolish attack than the Kunai one.

Um, who told you that anyone can teleport inside Susanoo? Is there even once such a feat displayed? The one thing is, no one can just teleport inside a susanoo, existing between thick layer of chakra, cause that's not even possible. The second thing is, how sure are you that Danzo can even decide where he revives at? There can be one instance for it, and we can even call it as luck. Izanagi, so far, doesn't give the user the acces of being allowed to choose the place he/she wants to appear.

Did you not understand the trick? Sasuke played it out as if he was using the Itachi genjutsu for real(which isn't pratical, considering everyone knows Itachi's dead), so Danzo would consider it as foolish and minor genjutsu, but he wasn't aware of the fact that he was made to think he had more than one eye in the genjutsu. Thus Sasuke tricked him, knowing that he would be skilled enough to break against any genjutsu he was fully aware of, so making a genjuts he wasn't aware of, while pretending that the main genjutsu trick was Itachi sold the trick. And Danzo fell for it.

Danzo didn't use Koto because he was confused over to use it for Izanagi or to use it against either Sasuke or Obito. That's the thing, if he uses it on one, then the other would explain everything about it and then attack Danzo. So, he was desperate to take hostage and run. div class="quote"> CombatIQmatters wrote: Sasuke's sharingan saw the bombs underground, and the microscopic ones. he then used his elemental advantage to diffuse them, that is something an average person can do. It's common sense really, he saw that the first two times used chidori, the bombs were defused. Deidara suffered from PIS in that fight too, he fought sasuke closer than he normally does to his opponents. It wasn't a clear picture, Sasuke needed to deduce everything down to why and how the bombs didn't explode. Saying it was simple is just false.

Diedera had a grudge over Sharingan users, did you not notice? And he did keep his distance, keeping his distance from Sasuke was actually 80% of what was happening in that battle. He just got outwitted to fall under his own trap by Sasuke, landing him straight on the ground. How you can state that he was in close distance shocks me.

And to be honest, Diedera had more advantage over the fight, having Obito place landmines over the field. Having an already experienced info over the Sharingan and praticing on how to counter it for years. Being on the safe side of battle, with Sasuke under his No Kill Rule, plus he kept on advicing Diedera to surrender and relay info about Itachi, it wasn't in Sasuke's plan to kill Diedera, as he have mentioned. So, what was Diedera's problem? Yeah he was fighting an lightning type user with a Sharingan, which he already knew everything about. Guess Diedera really did have PIS with all this, didn't he?

So, yeah, Sasuke figuring out a jutsu that Kakashi with a Sharingan and wide years of experience and Chidori didn't have a clue with is common sense. Sure…

div class="quote"> CombatIQmatters wrote: Sasuke outsmarted itachi? quite the opposite actually. itachi essentially outwitted sasuke and planned sasuke's life out from beginning to the end. he staged his death against sasuke, and even predicted sasuke would take his eyes for EMS. The kirin was a nice big plan, except it took him 3 years to come up with it, and it still had flaws, such as the fact it left him defenseless if it failed. I don't know where you get these ideas from, but no, it didn't take Sasuke three years to plan for Kirin. The three years was for training, and if you use that logic then didn't it take Itachi ten years to make a plan to outwit Sasuke(Which is more reasonable)

Itachi didn't plan on him taking his MS, he was worried over the fact that he pushed Sasuke over to a side where he might use it.

Kirin left him defenseless? If anything, it was unexpected that Itachi could survive it, it was a battle ending jutsu after all, it should have done the job, so being defenseless isn't a big deal if everything around is in crumbles. But we already saw Sasuke once had an escape plan before meeting Itachi, it just got used up for Diedera. And it was more over Sasuke's pride that he didn't try to flee. It wasn't like Kirin leaves him immobilized or injured. He was perfectly okay to run, while Itachi was barely standing. He should have just stood his distance. div class="quote"> CombatIQmatters wrote: Meanwhile obito has been shown to keep multiple back-up plans in comparison, such as his fail safes in the event itachi tried to take his life. and itachi used amaterasu because he wanted to waste his chakra and pressure sasuke in his facade of trying to steal sasuke's eyes, not because sasuke tricked him into using it. Sasuke's plan banked on itachi using the amaterasu. Itachi forced sasuke to play sasuke's secret hand first, and then itachi outwitted him with his own secret hand. I forgot to ask before, what do you mean by this fail safe? Obito got hit by the Amaterasu and he did what he could to escape, there wasn't much 'back up plans' to it.

Can you prove that? There was basically safer jutsus to use than Amaterasu. You stating Itachi 'tried' to loosen up his chakra is just made up. And too much. div class="quote"> CombatIQmatters wrote: How does sasuke and obito both being manipulated prove sasuke has better mind feats? If anything obito manipulating sasuke shows he was smarter than sasuke. Obito literally sent sasuke into the lions den of the 5 kage and sasuke thought he could handle it without a good plan. No, it doesn't make him smarter, cause one, he wasn't as good with it as Madara was, since Sasuke never trusted him to a point where he didn't even join the Akatsuki. He was just using Obito for his needs, as shown.

Obito told him about the present whereabouts of Danzo, that is the Kage Summit. Sasuke planned on an obvious sneak attack, with his team. He obviously had a plan, if it wasn't for Obito and Zetsu lmao. div class="quote"> CombatIQmatters wrote: Sasuke went into the summit forgetting that the kages would have likely had sensory shinobi with them too. He would have been caught either way, so no, that wasn't brilliant. Sasuke's plan revolved around him doing a sneak attack, obviously with Karin they could manage to reach the Summit without fail. Sensors don't recognize Sasuke's signature, and they need to be aware of him being there to actively search for him. The Kage summit already consisted of hundreds of people around the Kages if you didn't know. And even amongst the chaos, the sensors only sensed him when he was running straight towards them, that is seconds before he reached there. div class="quote"> CombatIQmatters wrote: so you used a feat that primarily banked on sasuke's sharingan, but when obito does why is it different? Obito use of his sharingan wasn't critical when he decieved on Fuu and Torune. Their strat was to bait him into attacking, then the other one would strike. Except OBito never turned off his intangibility, he onlypretended to attack to trick his foes, that's an intelligence feat, not a sharingan feat. Which as I've stated is just a common trick any kid would do lol. Who wouldn't pretend to be tangible while Intangible during a fight? If that's the best feat Obito has for intellegence then this shouldn't even be discussed. div class="quote"> CombatIQmatters wrote: It was actually explained why OBito declared war. He clearly wanted to lure bee and naruto into the open, which he successfully accomplished, as it was better to have both jinchuriki captured. And um no, Zetsu was actually trolling the alliance heavily, thus naruto was lured out. And, bringing the world together was to show obito's inner light. Do you think it was a coincidence TTJ obito lost resolve as naruto and sasuke stabbed him? OBito deep down despite being 99 percent on board with the plan, had his doubts. < Obito had the chance of capturing Naruto at the Inn. He he had the added chance of capturing Bee by aiding Taka, but he chose to bring six countries into the battle. And didn't even think through of the Kages keeping Naruto and Bee away.

And you might have not picked this up, but I was mentioning about the current state Obito was when he declared war. He had, in his team, Kisame and Sasuke and the Seven Tailed beasts(If he managed to get the Rinnegen), the Zetsu army was thanks to Kabuto. Who was an unexpected ally to the war. If he hadn't appeared, then he would have been dead by the force of whole Shinobi Allience.

Obito lost his resolve when Naruto kept showing him how he used to be through him, so what?

div class="quote"> CombatIQmatters wrote: He wanted to see what the world could achieve when they set aside their hatred for each other, and if they would be enough to take him down. and even then, the war was just a diversion. Sasuke had better conviction than obito as I already said. Obito would have adjusted accordingly if the variables changed. If kabuto and edo tensei never showed up, it was clear that the zetsu would be used to infiltrate the alliance bases and cause confusion while fighting a battle of attrition, while kisame gathers intel, and then obito with rinnegan could kamui gg both naruto and bee once he found their location, and do what he needed to do. < And that's being intellegent cause?

The Zetsu army that trolled over the Allience was thanks to Kabuto. Zetsu himself wouldn't be enough.

Obito showed what he could and what not he could do. If intel about Naruto and Bee's location leaks, then they will just change the position.

And not according to Obito's plan. The Real Zetsu gets killed by Sasuke. So Zetsu being there would be a big doubt.

obito himself was giving guy, kakashi, naruto, and bee a run for their money, so it was doable. Also, obito would have the same sasuke on his side fighting against konoha and naruto, so yeah, his plan was actually pretty smart. Kabuto (and also Black zetsu) were the ones that forced obito to change his plans around. < Add the Five Kages, their bodyguards, the Konoha Eleven, and the rest of the Allience with that. And Obito won't have the time to spare to be intangible. All his tricks were already being figured out by Kakashi. Eventually he won't be able to even run away. Let alone fight the Allience.

And no, we already saw what Sasuke was doing the moment he woke up, he depleted Obito's own force. Showing that he isn't getting manipulated by him. div class="quote"> CombatIQmatters wrote: Obito's age and experience of course contribute to his knowledge, but that says nothing about his ability to implement said knowledge and use it effectively. Imo, he has done a better job than sasuke, though I respect yours. In the end, I find Obito as a highly awesome character. But my opinions don't change him or Sasuke. By age, and given Info, he has shown to outsmart almost everyone till now. Though I can respect your opinion. And I hope I wasn't rude anywhere in this(If I was, I apologize in advance….This took alot of time to write lol) and cam we end this discussion here? I fear to write anymore than this again. It's okay if you want to reply, but I just can't go any further with this much content. Well anyways, peace!