Talk:Senjutsu

Frog or Toad?
At first it is mentioned that the user will turn into a frog but later it is stated that the user turns into a toad statue. Why?

Name?
I am not sure about the translations, but shouldnt it be called Hermit Techniques, since the others are translated as hermits arts

I think this should be called "Sennin Jutsu" not "Senjutsu", since Senjutsu stands simply for tactical skills (it is proven in the Manga early on, where Sasuke's grades in various Ninja disciplines are shown).


 * It does? Well, in my prediction, the reason that they call it Senjutsu is because to make the term "Sennin Jutsu" shorter to "Senjutsu", this whole Senjutsu name has nothing to do with skill, but to simlify the term. --Rasengan888 15:26, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * It's called senjutsu. There's nothing we can do about that.
 * You're not completely correct, though. Although "senjutsu" is the Japanese word for "tactics," that senjutsu and the "sage technique" senjutsu are written with different kanji.
 * That said, I do believe we should decide on a standard translation for "senjutsu"/"senpō". I'd prefer "Sage Technique"/"Sage Art," since the practitioners of senjutsu aren't actually hermits. --ShounenSuki 15:30, 3 January 2009 (UTC)]
 * I've done, alot of searching about this. 仙 is hermit, not sage. If it were sage, it would be along hte lines of Seijin or 聖--TheUltimate3 16:10, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * And to prevent the inevitable headache I'm sure you're gonna give me with this Suki, please provide whatever source you have as proof.--TheUltimate3 16:13, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I've done, alot of searching about this. 仙 is hermit, not sage. If it were sage, it would be along hte lines of Seijin or 聖--TheUltimate3 16:10, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * And to prevent the inevitable headache I'm sure you're gonna give me with this Suki, please provide whatever source you have as proof.--TheUltimate3 16:13, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


 * A sage is a wise and learned person. A hermit is a person who secluded themselves from society
 * comes from . A sennin is a person (or the spirit of a person) who has gathered so much wisdom and merit that they became immortal and gained the ability to perform miracles and magic. They are said to live in the mountains as hermits. They are basically people who transcended human limitations.
 * In short, the term "sennin" can be translated as both "sage" and "hermit" (it can also be translated as many other things, but "sage" and "hermit" are the most common translations).
 * However, since the sennin in Naruto aren't actually true hermits (although the Toad Sennin do live on a mountain), "sage" seems the more appropriate translation here. --ShounenSuki 16:37, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * That depends on the person you ask. I actually do think they fit the idea of hermit, cause as you said they do live in a mountain, hermits can be all mystical and worldly with the best of them. Regardless, to be fair, and to avoid this going on much longer than it needs to be to avoid the headache I was talking about earlier, it would be best to use both Hermit and Sage in our translations or neither at all. Though that makes all the Hermit Arts techniques an oddity now...--TheUltimate3 16:42, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Right now, 仙/仙人 is translated as either "sage" or "hermit". This makes the translations inconstant and confusing and overall unprofessional. I believe it would be best to decide on a common translation and only use both where it is appropriate (like in this article, when Senjutsu is translated). --ShounenSuki 16:52, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * And here the headache starts. /sigh
 * You already know my position. Hermit was the first translation used, your whole sennin comment still screamed "hermit" to me, while not justifiable, still speaks to me when Jiraiya first used it, he looked more like a hermit than anything.--TheUltimate3 16:55, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * My apologies for the headache.
 * I would be fine with using hermit. As I said, both translations are technically correct. All I want is consistency. Perhaps we should wait for another's opinion? --ShounenSuki 17:05, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Don't be. It's in my personality. I'm a territorial person who dislikes change and hates to get into confrontation and lose, and prone to collect things for no real reason other than the hate of seeing things thrown away. That said, yes we should wait for more people to chime in.--TheUltimate3 17:09, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

gelel?

I think I will agree with ShounenSuki and say too that Sage is a much more suitable word for Sennin.Hermit ,as it's origin is Greek, is literally someone who has gone to the desert to be alone and meditate so he can achieve connection with God .It really is more attached to the Christian religion than the Buddhistic or Shinto beliefs that Kishimoto uses in Naruto (see Sage of the Six Paths etc.)Also the official tankobon in english use the word Sage to translate Sennin .I know that many are used to hermit since when Jiraiya introduced Sennin Mode this was the first translation and although it may have suited Jiraiya I think that you will agree that Hermit doesn't just fit with Naruto .(he is not old or have cut off his relationships with humans going in a desert and eating locusts for Christ's sake ..!!).Also we call the senjutsu chakra sage chakra and Nagato's idol, the Sage of the Six Paths so we really need consistency in this wiki.--Naruto Namikaze (talk) 16:00, 7 May 2009 (UTC)


 * And I agree with TheUltimate3 AlienGamer | Talk 16:31, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

I believe it should be Sage Mode and not hermit. Naruto has always called Jiraya Pervert Sage. Also, sage is more oriental while hermit is more European. Also, a hermit is someone who lives in solitude while a sage is considered a wise and powerful individual User:Shock Dragoon | User talk:Shock Dragoon 12:39 ETZ May-7-09

naruto volume 25
vol. 25 I was looking at sasukes report card for when he was like 7-8 years old and at the bottom I saw senjutsu on the report card does that mean they teach it in the academy. Although naruto was completely unfamiliar of senjutsu training by the way i saw it on page 77 on volume 25
 * It's a homophone for some other subject, though I don't remember which. Kinda like how Dust Release and Swift Release both are called Jinton in Japanese. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:41, December 5, 2009 (UTC)
 * Senjutsu is also the Japanese word for tactics. --ShounenSuki (talk 23:30, December 5, 2009 (UTC)

Frog or Toad?
It must have been a typo

image
can someone plz upload an image of the sage chakra from the resent episodes to replace the current, i cannot as i have not got a decent image on file Fawcettp (talk) 08:59, April 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * AlienGamer did upload the image you requested, but ShounenSuki took it down.

Here it is If you want to put it back, I won't stop you.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 11:28, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Translation
Well, I really hate to break it to you, but Senjutsu does not mean Sage Techniques.
 * 仙術, or in it's katakana form, せんじゅつ, is Senjutsu which literally translates to "wizardry" or "secret of immortality". Look it up by Kanji, Katakana and Romanji here. ~ NOTASTAFF Ryun Uchiha (Ten Tailed Fox, Getsueikirite-taichou) (talk) 04:01, June 1, 2010 (UTC)


 * That is a translation. Other options include:
 * "spiritually immortal; transcendent; super-human; celestial being" (in Daoist/Taoist philosophy and cosmology)
 * "physically immortal; immortal person; immortalist; saint" (in Daoist religion and pantheon)
 * "alchemist; one who seeks the elixir of life; one who practices longevity techniques" or by extension "(alchemical, dietary, qigong) methods for attaining immortality" (in Chinese alchemy)
 * "wizard; magician; shaman" (in Chinese mythology)
 * "genie; elf, fairy; nymph" (in popular Chinese literature, 仙境 xian jing is "fairyland", Faerie)
 * "sage living high in the mountains; mountain-man; hermit; recluse" (folk etymology for the character 仙)
 * "immortal (talent); accomplished person; celestial (beauty); marvelous; extraordinary" (metaphorical modifier)
 * The question is, which makes sense for Jiraiya, a sennin (仙人)? Is he immortal? A wizard? An alchemist? A sage/hermit? A fairy? Occasionally with the last option, more often with the fourth.
 * Additionally, online translators are terrible. The one you used also translates genjutsu (幻術) as magic/witchcraft. And that's bullshit isn't it? ~SnapperTo 04:28, June 1, 2010 (UTC)
 * Different contexts, different meanings. Dictionaries of any kind are never foolproof.
 * In normal, real-life use, "senjutsu" does refer to wizardry and the secret of immortality. However, the kanji literally refer to the art of sages. In the context of Naruto, "sage techniques" is a perfectly fine translation and translating it as "wizardry" is simply wrong.
 * The same goes for "genjutsu", by the way. In real-life use, translating it as "magic" or "witchcraft" is quite acceptable. In the context of Naruto, that translation falls horribly short. --ShounenSuki (talk 10:05, June 1, 2010 (UTC)

Wait
So if I am reading this right then Senjutsu chakra is Yin + Yang + Natural energy?Umishiru (talk) 03:52, February 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * We know too little on Yin and Yang to confirm or deny. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 10:58, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

Shikkotsurin
it must be the place where slug lives??... --Nitram86 (talk) 12:46, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe better translation will clear this, but since Mount Myōboku name has nothing to do with toads, I doubt it.Faust-RSI (talk) 12:50, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * We'd have to wait and see. Though it sound Kimimaro-esque but that doesn't make much sense.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg

i think all the animal can sense the senjutsu chakra but only a small ammount have developed the sage mode the only sage we know are part of the sannin summons...the traslation in the chapiter i think look like a umid forest the adapt location for the slugs but this is my interpretation...we must wait --Nitram86 (talk) 13:01, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think you mean natural energy. Senjutsu chakra is the chakra one has after assuming Sage Mode. =P Skitts (talk) 13:03, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think it would complement the Sannin trio, you know (Toad, Snake, Snail). I suppose we could add it as trivia or such? It would make sense. =p Derigar (talk) 17:53, March 21, 2012 (UTC)

Only when we are sure there's a Slug Mode. --Elveonora (talk) 17:59, March 21, 2012 (UTC)

Orochimaru?
Doesn't Kabuto clearly say that orochimaru never was able to master becoming a sage? Should he really be put as an example? He has never been seen actually in sage mode. 192.183.30.172 (talk) 06:08, February 4, 2013 (UTC)Adam
 * Jus' cuz' he didn't master Senjutsu, doesn't mean he don' know it. We never said he uses Sage Mode 'ya know. But he has used Senjutsu Chakra.71.71.58.231 (talk) 06:14, February 4, 2013 (UTC) Yomiko-chan

it kinda does: " Under its tutelage, he learned senjutsu which enables him to use Sage Mode, which Orochimaru had also done in the past." "A person who is able to use senjutsu is called a sage (仙人, sennin)." these two comments kinda do say that he is a sage. but he didnt actually learn it, he wasn't capable enough to do so. 192.183.30.172 (talk) 06:35, February 4, 2013 (UTC)Adam

Senjutsu is 'ta us Nature Energy, Orochimaru's Jūinjutsu ues Natural Energy. Kabut said that Orochimaru waan't able'ta master Senjusu and thus not able 'ta use Sage Mode, cuz' 'tha body wasn't able 'ta take it. We never said 'tha he's able 'ta use Senjutsu and is a Sage, but jus' as it was explained, he does knowhow ta use Senjutsu.71.71.58.231 (talk) 06:52, February 4, 2013 (UTC) Yomiko-chan

ok i wont argue that orochimaru cant use any form of senjutsu because im not sure of that. i'll start small. "Under its tutelage, he learned senjutsu which enables him to use Sage Mode, which Orochimaru had also done in the past." youve agreed that he is not technically a sage since he didnt master senjutsu. this sentence kind of implies that he is a sage. if this one sentence is changed, ill be happy enough. i dont think it needs any of what it does after the comma. 192.183.30.172 (talk) 07:01, February 4, 2013 (UTC)Adam
 * The obvious use of Senjutsu, is that it was stated that he uses Senjutsu Chakra in his Juinjutsu.71.71.58.231 (talk) 07:08, February 4, 2013 (UTC) Yomiko-chan


 * "he learned senjutsu" → "which Orochimaru had also done in the past."
 * Whats the confusion?~ Ultimate  Supreme  07:09, February 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * If I understood correctly, Orochimaru knows how to use Senjutsu but couldn't because he's been jumping from body to body too weak to withstand its use.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 13:58, February 4, 2013 (UTC)

Read the correct translation, Orochimaru can use Senjutsu himself but his host bodies couldn't--Elveonora (talk) 17:21, February 4, 2013 (UTC)

Once again, not questioning whether or not he used senjutsu. Questioning "...which enables him to use Sage Mode, which Orochimaru had also done in the past." It should be rewritten so there can be no doubt what the sentence means, since it is a misplaced modifier. It should read something more along the lines of "Orochimaru trained under its tutelage, but was not able to completely gain control over senjutsu and become a Sage. However, Kabuto followed in his footsteps and completed the training." 192.183.30.172 (talk) 22:17, February 4, 2013 (UTC)Adam

One can't use Senjutsu without Sage Mode--Elveonora (talk) 00:00, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

well apparently you can. orochimaru has been noted to use senjutsu according to these guys but kabuto clearly stated that orochimaru himself was not able to master senjutsu and become a sage like him. also orochimaru has never been shown in sage mode or any other indication that he has become a sage, so we have to take kabuto by his word. 192.183.30.172 (talk) 01:59, February 5, 2013 (UTC)Adam

That's not what Kabuto said--Elveonora (talk) 15:20, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Hagoromo Ootsutuski?
After the lastest chapter where Madara described Naruto's new power as "Senjutsu of six paths" shouldn't Hagoromo was also listed as Senjutsu user ? I mean it just happened after Hagoromo gave his power to Naruto and Sasuke, so it clearly hint that new power is connected to Hagoromo itself. Another reason I believe Hagoromo was Senjutsu user is that he fought Ten tails and we know Ten tails can not be hurt by no Sage chakra, so Hagoromo has to have Senjtusu chakra to harm it.

What do you think ?. --TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki (talk) 09:16, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

Madara literary said that Sasuke was given the Rinnegan while Naruto Hagoromo's Senjutsu. How and if that Senjutsu differs any from known Senjutsu is unknown, but it still is Senjutsu.--Elveonora (talk) 09:28, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

OK, Thanks for your fast reply ;). I will wait and I hope Hagoromo will be listed as Senjutsu user, because he is --TTHHagoromoOotsutsuki (talk) 09:31, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

Bump guys.--Elveonora (talk) 12:06, April 20, 2014 (UTC)

Sage Transformation
When was Naruto's new transformation ever stated to be "Sage Transformation"? I can't find ANYTHING verifying this name. And if it is infact called Sage Transformation, is there any correlation between this and Juugo's Clan's Sage Transformation? Skarrj (talk) 19:04, April 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Naruto's transformation is called Six Paths Sage Technique (Rikudō Senjutsu). • Seelentau 愛議 19:13, April 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * No its not. And the brand of Senjutsu he used was called Senjutsu of the Six Paths (六道の仙術, Rikudō no Senjutsu; Sage Techniques of the Six Paths). Skarrj (talk) 19:29, April 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Talking back to the translator is generally not a good idea when it comes to translations and terms... • Seelentau 愛議 19:35, April 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Being the "translator" doesn't mean you automatically know everything about translations. And tell me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure 六道の仙術(Rikudō no Senjutsu) translates to "Senjutsu of the Six Paths". Skarrj (talk) 19:44, April 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, you aren't wrong with that. • Seelentau 愛議 19:48, April 26, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, Skarrj, you aren't wrong, but even though 六道の術 (Rikudō no Jutsu) technically translates to "Jutsu of the Six Paths," the article is named Six Paths Technique, so the name "Six Paths Sage Technique" seems more consistent for now. Btw, you are right, naming that section "Sage Transformation" is utterly ridiculous considering it was called "The Senjutsu of the Six Paths" in the manga. WindStar7125 (talk) 22:14, April 26, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125
 * It isn't that he's wrong with the translation of his term, it is just so that his term has never been used in the manga, at least not in context to Naruto's new cloak. • Seelentau 愛議 22:15, April 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Windstar, the "no" character denotes posession('s) or of. So no, "Six Paths Sage Technique" wouldn't be more consistent. The reason I said it was Senjutsu of the Six Paths is because it is Rikudo no Senjutsu, litteraly meaning Sage Techniques of the Six Path. And I apologize, Steelentau, you're right, it is actually 六道仙術. But my original question still stands... Why the hell is it called Sage Transformation? If Six Paths Sage Technique is correct, it should be updated. Skarrj (talk) 00:31, April 27, 2014 (UTC)

"Six Paths Sage Technique" is consistent with "Six Paths Technique." If we changed the former to "Senjutsu of the Six Paths," then the wikia would change the latter to "Jutsu of the Six Paths" for the sake of consistency. Another example of this consistency was when Naruto's techniques "Rasenrangan" and "Rasenrengan" were changed to "Spiralling Strife Spheres" and "Sage Technique: Spiralling Serial Spheres," respectively. I'm not necessarily saying I agree with it, that's just how things work here on this wiki. WindStar7125 (talk) 00:42, April 27, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125
 * No worries, I know how things work her and most of the time, when it comes to terms, they work the way I want them to. The name of Madara's, Naruto's and most likely Obito's cloak is Six Paths Senjutsu, that's the name it shall be called from now on and I have no idea how the Sennin Transformation of Jugo has to with it at all. • Seelentau 愛議 01:47, April 27, 2014 (UTC)

Sorry to disagree, but I'm certain Madara called the form Sage Transformation. Rikudou Senjutsu isn't what the form is called but what Naruto was given from Hagoromo--Elveonora (talk) 08:58, April 27, 2014 (UTC)