Talk:Six Paths Senjutsu

Facts
Something that proves this isn't speculative?--JOA20 (talk) 07:08, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * The manga, of course. The cloak Naruto dons after receiving all nine tb chakras is called Rikudō Senjutsu by Madara. Furthermore, he says that he himself has the same power. Other users of this are Obito and of course the Sage himself. When it comes to Obito, Madara called his staff transformation Senninka. The connection of Senninka and Rikudo Senjutsu has yet to be explained, though. Rikudo Senjutsu is the Nine Biju Mode, so to speak. • Seelentau 愛議 07:48, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * As you know, I completely disagree. I think you misinterpreted things. Rikudou Senjutsu is the power that Naruto's got, Madara didn't say it's the name of the form. The orbs and staff are part of the Ten-Tails' jinchuuriki form, they aren't separate things. What sense does it make for the staff to be called Sage Transformation and for the cloak Rikudou Senjutsu?--Elveonora (talk) 09:24, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Excuse me, but don't you think technique is a bit confusing? I mean why not "Six Path Sage Mode" or something along that line? Justin Holland (talk) 00:08, July 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Anyway, this article actually contradicts Seel's notion that it's the name of the jinchuuriki form, since according to Skarrj, it's a new Sage Mode, hence the infobox showing Naruto's face and not the cloak. Skarrj idea/interpretation differs from yours, Seelentau, so I don't see how come you don't disagree with him.
 * I actually partially agree with Skarrj, I take "Rikudou Senjutsu" as a technique/power too, but it isn't the Ten-Tails jinchuuriki form's name, that is called Sage Transformation. I interpret "Rikudou Senjutsu" as meaning simply "Hagoromo's Senjutsu (chakra)"
 * Hagoromo by giving Naruto his chakra granted him a sort of permanent Sage Mode, hence Naruto wasn't in need to absorb natural energy, he just woke up with it, also no pigmentation. So in short:
 * Rikudou Senjutsu = permanent Sage Mode
 * the orbs, staff, cloak and all jinchuuriki form = Sage Transformation--Elveonora (talk) 09:46, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sysop feedback on the whole terminology and phenomena thing?--Elveonora (talk) 11:39, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Still counting the number of things that are confusing in the recent episodes, and shuddering when I think how much more complicated they're sure to get. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 11:44, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * What we know:
 * Upon Obito manifesting the orbs and staff, Madara called it Sage Transformation
 * Madara said that he and Naruto possess "Rikudou Senjutsu"
 * This is Seel's personal opinion: "The whole thing is part of the "Rikudō Senjutsu". The "Sage Transformation" is the part of "Rikudo Senjutsu" were a user uses Senchakra (and probably YYR) to create the orbs. The chakra mode Naruto and the others have has yet to be named, but is part of the "Rikudo Senjutsu", too. Just like the "Sage Mode" is part of the normal "Senjutsu"
 * I agree that "Rikudou Senjutsu" is everything surrounding the orbs, staff, cloaks and all, but IMO it simply refers to Hagoromo's Senjutsu chakra, not a brand of Senjutsu techniques, as Seel believes. So in short, my interpretation is that the jinchuuriki form is called Sage Transformation, while the power it uses is Rikudou Senjutsu, meaning my major disagreement with Seel is that while for him only the orbs/staff are Sage Transformation and cloaks are unnamed, for me the cloak too is part of the Sage Transformation. Also this article as it is, is basically fanon, because even tho I agree with some of it, it wasn't stated--Elveonora (talk) 12:12, April 28, 2014 (UTC)

Key word, "my interpretation" and "IMO" (in my opinion, for those who don't dabble in internet lingo). None of which are facts. Seel's translations, however, are facts, and they point more to his explanation of things. Please don't turn this into another week long pissing match. You seem to think that because you don't agree with it, it cannot be so, but, while this article is in need of great restructuring, its not entirely false. That is the only thing I'm going to say about it. I've been in enough arguments this week, so I'm going to respectfully bow out after this message. Too many headaches >_< ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20:57, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * As it goes with every new information we get, we should only write it down. Nothing else. Here, we write down that Madara called Naruto's cloak/abilites this and said that he has the same cloa/abilities. Then we write down what those abilities are and that's about it. Nothing about a Kyubi Mode or anything. • Seelentau 愛議 21:01, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree with you Seel. As much as I disagree with some of the things pertaining to other subjects, I think that, as much information as we're being thrown lately, its best to just record what we know and nothing more. Arguments like these are becoming too frequent and with the manga ending this year (or so I've been told), we'll have plenty of time to connect the dots and sort everything out once everything is said and done. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:05, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Foxie, I have almost wrote something very... "unnice" just now. Where do you see me disagreeing with any translation? I think you put your tongue down his opening too often, no offense. The translation doesn't point any more to his view of things than it does to mine, but whatever Seel says is a holy grail to you despite being just that, an opinion, but no, a specific individuals' opinions are facts around here, while opinions of us lesser beings are just that, opinions of course.
 * Anyway, the article as is now is good, with the fanon/unconfirmed stuff removed. I have nothing with it at the moment, save the name. Madara called Obito manifesting the orbs/staff Sage Transformation, that sounds more like the name of the Ten-Tails jinchuuriki's form than "Six Paths Sage Technique" does. It's even ironic, because originally you agreed with me. What sense does it make for the orbs/staff and all to be named separately, despite being part of the jinchuuriki form?--Elveonora (talk) 21:32, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * I call it as I see it. Whether that makes you mad or not doesn't concern me. Seel gave you the direct translations and how they fit into the context of the series, and you spun your own theories based on, and I quote, "your interpretation" and "your opinion" which simply isn't fact. The bad thing is, you ask for these translations, but then when they don't agree with you're theory, all of a sudden everyone who takes them at face value is "taking things too literal". And when they do agree with your theories, they're the law of the land (or in this case the wiki). Seel has recorded on this page all that we know to be fact from what has been told to us in the manga. If you have to rely on "I think", "in my opinion", and "my interpretation" to get your point across, then we're just going to go around in circles for weeks (like these previous article discussions), because theories can be debated forever. /rant
 * Seel is suggesting we simply record what the manga literally states to us and nothing more until we're told more. That's what's been done here. That's all that needs to be done here for the time being. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:40, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * And the manga wrote Madara calling Obito manifesting the orbs and staff "Sage Transformation" what do we do with that?--Elveonora (talk) 22:09, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * When we write Obito's section, we mention that. Nothing else. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:29, April 29, 2014 (UTC)

Name: Senjutsu of the Six Paths
And now for something completely different. Shouldn't the name be something like "Senjutsu of the Six Paths" or something? Given how Rikudo Sennin becomes Sage of the Six Paths? So shouldn't Rikodu Senjutsu then be Senjutsu of the Six Paths? Keep in mind I don't care regardless, I am just curious.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 11:56, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Depends on how literal you want to be with the translation. Rikudou means Six Paths and Senjutsu means Sage Technique/s, so the name is correct as is. Although I believe the Senjutsu part refers to Senjutsu chakra, not techniques. I interpret "Rikudou Senjutsu" as "Hagoromo's Senjutsu"--Elveonora (talk) 12:07, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think Senjutsu of Hagoromo derived from the Shinju after he became its jinchūriki. There are many kinds of senjutsu. Naruto could uses Sage Mode to fight against Obito (Six Paths), this is example. And after meeting with Hagoromo, he can combine Sage Mode with the chakra from nine tail beasts, similar to Hagoromo and Shinju, except senjutsu from the toads. When Madara states about that, it's not right exact. So, it's still the part of Sage Mode page, not an independent page. --Sulina (talk) 12:41, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * I also think "Rikudou Senjutsu" is Hagoromo's Senjutsu chakra and results in sort of a permanent Sage Mode. Madara got that as the Shinju's jinchuriki, while Naruto got that from Hagoromo who in turn had it from his magical tree relations.--Elveonora (talk) 12:54, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Why is that "Senjutsu" is translated to "Sage Technique" in technique names when we don't do the same for other technique classifications, like genjutsu? For consistency, shouldn't this article be called "Six Paths Senjutsu" and this be "Senjutsu: Spiralling Serial Spheres"?--BeyondRed (talk) 00:48, April 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmm, maybe because Nin, Tai and Gen are the "big three" and thus are left untranslated... or so? • Seelentau 愛議 08:18, April 29, 2014 (UTC)

Obito a user
Where was it stated that Obito had this ability? Steveo920, 19:45, April 28, 2014
 * Madara was stated to have the abiity as well. Obito had everything Madara had when he said that: the Juubi, and a rinnegan. Plus when he created his shakujo when he impaled Madara, Madara called it Sage Transformation Riptide240 (talk) 00:10, April 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not to mention Obito bears the markings of the Senjutsu of the Six Paths. Definitely had it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:28, April 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * But how? To achieve Rikudō Senjutsu, isn't it: sage mode (any type) + TB chakra 1-9? So is it safe to assume that by absorbing the ten-tails, which I'm guessing is just a mass of natural energy, one automatically acquires a variant of sage mode? It makes sense that Madara has it because he absorbed Hashirama's sage chakra before sealing the ten-tails, which is obviously: TB chakra 1-9, into himself. Same for Naruto. But Obito never had sage mode to begin with.--The Zeitgeist (talk) 13:28, April 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * The Shinju is natural energy--Elveonora (talk) 21:26, April 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * So in that case, shouldn't there be a subsection for Obito called "Obito's Version"? --KirinNOTKarin98 (talk) 18:54, May 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * Bump --KirinNOTKarin98 (talk) 21:29, May 13, 2014 (UTC)

Picture
If we're mentioning that his chakra mantle is a form of this technique, then shouldn't the main pic be him when he woke up since it's the base? Riptide240 (talk) 01:55, April 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * No. The markings on Naruto's chakra mantle are the symbol of this brand of Senjutsu, so that's the picture we have. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 02:00, April 29, 2014 (UTC)

Obito's Markings
Shouldn't we mention that Obito's markings on his back is a little different. Unlike Hagoromo, Madara and Naruto Obito had the same 9 tomoes and above is tomoe-like Rinnegan--MERCURIOUS (talk) 14:02, April 29, 2014 (UTC)

Actual Debut
Is it better to change the debut to chapter #572 and episode #329 because of Hagoromo's markings appearance on his back? — Shakhmoot  (Talk) 13:45, May 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd say its better to err in the side of caution and say no. When seen with the beasts he did not have the Truth-Seeking Balls with him. While its possible he simply didn't have them active (as seen when Naruto first appeared with the Six Paths Sage Technique) we don't have any evidence to suggest he wasn't simply wearing a cloak with the same pattern. I think the first time we can say for certain that we saw it in use should be listed as the debut.--Soul reaper (talk) 13:51, May 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * Why're you guys thinking Naruto's appearance prior to having the new coat is part of this technique? • Seelentau 愛議 15:07, May 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well for a start, that's what the page says...--Soul reaper (talk) 15:15, May 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * When naruto fought Madara before the cloak, Madara said that his power had greatly increased and he was in Sage Mode. His cloak just enhanced that senjutsu power with the bijuu chakra. Riptide240 (talk) 15:36, May 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Seel, the way I see it:
 * rikudou senjutsu = when he woken up
 * sage transformation = rikudou senjutsu + tailed beast chakra
 * But we don't know enough either way... you think the cloak orbs and all too are rikudou senjutsu, because when Madara said Naruto has it, his back was shown. So shrugs. But whatever it is, the actual debut is debut of truth seeking orbs--Elveonora (talk) 16:02, May 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * Rikudo Senjutsu is a term Madara used referring to Naruto's cloak. That's really all we got. We don't know if healing Guy and the "permanent" Sage Mode are part of this, please remove it. • Seelentau 愛議 16:10, May 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * You are correct that we don't know if his Sage Mode eyes without pigment are part of this or just this, Kishimoto has been doing a pretty crap job at explaining things as of late. I give you that, that Naruto's back was shown when Madara used this term, but I wouldn't rule the eyes out either, because Sage Mode uses Senjutsu and Naruto got Rikudou Senjutsu, so I think it's a fair assumption.--Elveonora (talk) 16:15, May 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * It is, but with the manga being in the state it is right now, I'd just wait for more information. • Seelentau 愛議 16:26, May 1, 2014 (UTC)

Obito and Hagoromo Versions
Since both Obito and Hagoromo are listed as users, should they also have specific subsections dedicated to their versions? --KirinNOTKarin98 (talk) 02:16, May 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Don't see why not.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 02:21, May 27, 2014 (UTC)

Derived techniques
Considering that according to Madara's claim, both he and Naruto are using this, does everyone find reasonable to list this technique as a parent technique to the various Sage Art techniques they've used so far? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:07, June 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well I do. If it weren't for the Six Paths Sage Technique, Naruto wouldn't be able to use the new, recent techniques he's displayed thus far. Same for Madara's case as well. Would he be able to use that lightning technique if it weren't for becoming the Ten-Tails Jinchuuriki thus gaining the SPST? WindStar7125 (talk) 00:30, June 7, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125
 * Not really. We don't even know if there's any difference between this and ordinary Senjutsu. The most common theory/speculation is that this simply refers to permanent Senjutsu--Elveonora (talk) 10:23, June 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Any difference wouldn't matter. Madara noticed that what Naruto is using is specifically Six Paths Sage Technique, this would mean that every senjutsu technique he used since appearing in that stage would have this as parent, and since Madara himself said he has that power, his senjutsu attacks also would stem from this. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 13:15, June 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * In that case yes. But what about techniques with to "Sage" in their name, like Tailed Beast Ball Rasenshuriken?--Elveonora (talk) 13:40, June 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * That comes down to whether TSB should be considered derived from this as well. Considering that it's already a senjutsu that was only available to Naruto after he fully got into his current mode, I do believe that TSB should also have this as a parent. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:44, June 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * So do I.--Elveonora (talk) 15:14, June 7, 2014 (UTC)

Asura?
I just thought of Asura's avatar creature reminding me of this very technique and since he inherited Hagoromo's "body", could he have this technique as well?--Hockey Machete (talk) 22:21, June 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * No. The Six Paths Sage Technique requires senjutsu and either the Ten-Tails' chakra or the chakra of all nine tailed beasts. Asura was never noted to be a jinchuuriki. Plus, Indra inherited Hagoromo's "eyes," but he didn't have the Rinnegan. WindStar7125 (talk) 00:43, June 8, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125
 * Well but he obviously had Tailed Beast chakra, the "battle avatar" thing is almost given to be Tailed Beast Mode hence its similarity to Naruto's. We are just waiting for a confirmation at this point, but to me at least it's obvious. Hashirama didn't have it and the major difference between him and Naruto is that Naruto is a jinchuuriki. So if Ashura had something that Naruto has but not Hashirama, it's because of the Tailed Beast chakra difference. But even if it gets confirmed (that he was a host) I still wouldn't bet on those having been Truth Seeking Balls, since they might have been Tailed Beast Balls--Elveonora (talk) 11:34, June 8, 2014 (UTC)

saving guy and restoring eye
They had nothing to do with this, but Yang Release. Each time Naruto did those, he looked at his palm.--Elveonora (talk) 11:31, June 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Bump--Elveonora (talk) 11:22, June 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Considering Naruto was already in a powered state, I believe it's quite possible for it to have been a Yang Release Six Paths Sage Technique. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:08, June 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Fair play, although my point is that we should attribute it mostly to the Yang stuff rather than Senjutsu--Elveonora (talk) 14:26, June 12, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya
She has this too, considering that she didn't only ate the Shinju's fruit but now also is its jinchuuriki.--Elveonora (talk) 11:37, June 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * No proof of that yet. Especially considering as far as we know about what Kaguya actually is, nothing even changed about her prior and after eating the fruit. And she's only the Ten-Tails' jincuriki by proxy of having Madara's body as a medium, it still didn't alter her appearance nor provide her any of the benefits we've seen with the form.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:58, June 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * The floating/flying got attributed to this and she does so--Elveonora (talk) 12:17, June 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Pain and the Tsuchikage could fly too. Fu as well, but she had wings. Flight isn't all that important.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:21, June 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Man, I am so sick of these discussions about the Paths. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 13:12, June 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hm? Then simply ignore them?--Elveonora (talk) 13:18, June 11, 2014 (UTC)

Senjutsu only?
Since it has been noted that only senjutsu works against Obito and Madara doesn't this mean that only senjutsu works on Naruto too?--Hunter4522 (talk) 23:45, June 19, 2014 (UTC)--Hunter4522 (talk) 23:48, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, so?--Elveonora (talk) 11:28, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya 2
Just in case someone makes an attempt to refute the validity of my edit, consider these first: --Elveonora (talk) 21:27, August 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ten-Tails was stated to be of natural energy
 * Kaguya flies, attributed to six paths power
 * Obito and Madara got Senjutsu of Six Paths after they became jinchuuriki, at last Obito definitely didn't from Hagoromo, since he wasn't an incarnate
 * Kaguya's back has been obscured by hair, so not evidence to contrary of her having it
 * Kaguya absorbed Naruto's chakra and didn't turn into a toad or stone statue
 * ...Or you can bring it to a talkpage. That's fine. This discussion should be interesting. WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 21:29, August 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Reverting. Its called Six Paths Sage Technique, because it belonged to the Sage of the Six Paths, not his mother. We literally have no proof that she has it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 23:18, August 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Refuting your evidence (last I'll say on the matter, then others can finish):
 * Natural energy =/= Sage anything. Is the Ten-Tails a user of Sage Mode and Six Paths Senjutsu now too? It has chakra and nature energy too. Absolutely not.
 * Yeah, well, so does the previous three Tsuchikage. Don't recall them having any connections to Hagoromo. We don't even know how they do it. Not evidence.
 * Kaguya isn't the jinchūriki of herself. She is the Ten-Tails, the tailed beast's chakras, therefore, are parts of her own chakra (obviously since Naruto nearly pulled them out of her this time). Not evidence.
 * So you're saying that because we can't see the markings associated with it, we should consider them to be there anyways? No, I'd rather see them with my own eyes, thank you. Not evidence.
 * Yes, well, Madara absorbed Hashirama's chakra prior to becoming a jinchūriki and didn't turn to stone either. Could just mean that she didn't absorb enough to turn her (Pain literally absorbed all of Naruto's senjutsu chakra before he transformed and Naruto used the stillness to continue feeding him more and more of it, which sped it up) so again, I fail to see your point.
 * Long and the short of it is, you can't prove it, certainly not to the point that warrants her to be added to an article without discussion and especially since the last discussion on this matter told you not to add it too for the same reasons. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 23:54, August 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Nope.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 00:06, August 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * "Its called Six Paths Sage Technique, because it belonged to the Sage of the Six Paths, not his mother" what kind of logic is that? Obito didn't meet Hagoromo, he got Six Paths Senjutsu from the Ten-Tails, so tell me how come Kaguya doesn't have it please.--Elveonora (talk) 09:35, August 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * They got Hagaromo's ability by becoming the Ten-Tails jinchuriki like Hagaromo before them. As you're apt to point out often, Kaguya is not jinchuriki to herself. So no, still not using Six Path Sage Technique.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 10:48, August 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think you are trolling at this point. Please don't be stupid, I'm not in mood for that today. Jinchuuriki have power of their Tailed Beast. What you say is that Ten-Tails' jinchuuriki get a power from the Ten-Tails, which the Ten-Tails herself doesn't have, that's stupid--Elveonora (talk) 10:52, August 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not being stupid but I sure as hell can be. Point is, until we are told otherwise Kaguya is not using Six Path Sage Technique. Complain all you want I really don't care. But until we know she's the original Sage of the Six Paths, she's not using her sons technique.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:00, August 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * person x becomes Ten-Tails' jinchuuriki, gets six paths sage technique
 * you come and say Ten-Tails doesn't have six paths sage technique, so person x must have pulled it out of his *** according to you
 * Since point 1 is true, that's evidence for you.--Elveonora (talk) 11:12, August 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yep. Until it's actually stated she has it, she don't got it. Have a lovely day.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:18, August 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, I wish you the opposite of a lovely day for such an attitude. Karma is a ****--Elveonora (talk) 11:33, August 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Temper temper, my good man. You're the one getting your knickers in a bunch. Maybe you should take a break from the wiki for the day, before something bad happens hm? Clearly you are in a right state today, trying picking a fight with me.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:36, August 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your advice, but no. And if anything bad happens, it wouldn't be by my own doing. Also don't be so flattered about me picking a fight with you, I could care less about who it is. Anyone who opposes reason has a problem with me.--Elveonora (talk) 11:59, August 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * She has used the Truth Seeking Ball, so do you still want to play stupid or what?--Elveonora (talk) 10:58, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm fine with playing stupid if it pisses you off a bit more. But seriously, now I lean more to the "maybe" but until it's stated that that's what she's using. Nah.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:14, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * You sadist. Well, TSB are Senjutsu, so either add Six Paths Senjutsu or at least make general Senjutsu section to her abilities rather than pretending she doesn't have it. I find it funny how a woman that has all chakra natures and possibly all kkg is farfetched to have six paths senjutsu from your point of view. Hagoromo is her son and was her jinchuuriki, everything he has, so does she--Elveonora (talk) 11:39, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hella stupid question, where was it stated that Truth-Seeking Ball was senjutsu again?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:52, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * There's references in the article--Elveonora (talk) 12:04, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * I see a lot of "They show up in Six Path Sage Mode" but none "They are senjutsu." So where does it say exactly that?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:12, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Since they require Senjutsu to be used, they are Senjutsu. Also the whole "Senjutsu is immune to YYR and only natural energy can harm natural energy" hence Naruto was able to kick Madara's TSB--Elveonora (talk) 12:17, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not really relevant, but... @TU3: Quoting your userpage: Okay. Takin a break from Talk Pages. Will monitor articles and forums as normal. Yet your posting in talkpages? XD --SuperSajuuk Talk Page 12:19, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * That was months ago Speyjuuk. Never got rid of it.
 * But do they? I mean, Naruto required senjutsu to not get absolutely wrecked by Rasenshuriken. Does that mean Rasenshuriken is senjutsu? I mean, are we assuming that the Truth-Seeking Balls show up with Six Path Sage Technique, that they are also senjutsu?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:24, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Every technique becomes Senjutsu when you are in Senjutsu-empowered state, and TSB require Senjutsu specifically, so yes.--Elveonora (talk) 12:25, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

So Rasenshuriken is senjutsu, yes?--TheUltimate3 (talk) 12:29, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

When used in Senjutsu state it is, hence why it is Sage Art: Lava Release Rasenshuriken and so--Elveonora (talk) 12:32, August 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * Okay bored now. I really don't care about this anymore I just wanted to see what you'd do. Do what you want.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:42, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * You asked and I answered, no need to be all letdown. Naruto's Rasengans in Six Paths Senjutsu have "sage art" thus they are Senjutsu, confirming Six Paths Senjutsu is a form of Senjutsu. Truth Seeking Orbs were shown only after getting Six Paths Senjutsu. Kaguya used TSB, so logically she has to have Six Paths Senjutsu, there's really nothing to be argued about anymore.--Elveonora (talk) 12:57, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

This makes no sense whatsoever. Kaguya predates the Six Paths. Why would she be using her son's technique? Getting a little tired of you trying to mould this wikia to match your theories based on absolutely nothing, and Ultimate, if you don't care, then don't make a ruling. Fox gave perfectly valid reasons why this does not make sense, and you dismiss his input out of apathy and because you don't want to put up with Elve incessant whining. That is ridiculous.--Reliops (talk) 15:59, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Who said it was Hagoromo's technique? Obito never encountered Hagoromo and got Six Paths Senjutsu from the Ten-Tails.--Elveonora (talk) 16:01, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * "Six Paths" Sage Technique. Gee, wonder who was named the Sage of the Six Paths, which coined the name for the technique, and not his mother? Or the fact that both Kakashi and Madara have called it the Six Paths' technique. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 16:11, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * And yet Obito got it from Kaguya, not Hagoromo and Kaguya has now used a TSB which requires Six Paths Senjutsu.--Elveonora (talk) 16:14, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * We've agreed to call it the Six Paths Sage technique. As in, it started with Hagoromo. Obito and Madara achieved power just like it on their own so they were credited with it. Kaguya makes no sense as she CANNOT be the jinchūriki of her own damn self, and I'm getting tired of your bullying tactics to shape this wiki after your own desires. This is makes less sense and has less evidence behind than Ashura being some type of jinchūriki or Gaara having Magnet Release, but since this is YOUR theory you are all for disregarding that. What you're doing is not even inference. It's plain writing fanfiction. Why don't you hop over to a fanon wiki page where that shit is tolerated?--Reliops (talk) 16:12, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Watch your tongue. You are talking complete gibberish--Elveonora (talk) 16:17, August 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * You haven't stated a single concrete fact yet. All you offer is innuendo and theories that connects dots only you are connecting. Kaguya is not a jinchūriki, that alone should rule her out of as a user. Her time was before that of Hagoromo and so are her powers. We do not know for a fact TSB requires the same technique. That is, as it stands, a theory, not a fact.--Reliops (talk) 16:21, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * What does jinchuuriki stuff have to do with anything? You are confused and mixing apples with oranges. And yes, we do know for a fact, because Obito and Madara got Truth Seeking Balls from Six Paths Senjutsu they got from the Ten-Tails. So stop accusing me of fanon and theories, the only one that does it here is you, arguing against facts, I'm done with you--Elveonora (talk) 16:23, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Reliops, I could not have said it better myself. With that, I am removing her as a user because it was never agreed upon. Continue discussing here, though, if you will. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 16:26, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * All he said is nonsense from his mouth, indeed, you couldn't have said it any better, you are expert at it already. You are vandalizing this place by arguing against manga facts, I have had enough of it.--Elveonora (talk) 16:29, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * You know to be perfectly honest, I get a massive amount of #(%@ stuffed up my arse for putting together things from the manga (and because I have the balls to admit that other things not just the manga have more canonical weight than my fanbased viewership) other media, and am told, quite religiously, that stuff needs to be explicitly spelled out by the manga before things can happen.
 * Yet Kaguya is using Six Paths Senjutsu not because we were told (we weren't) but because info was put together from things from the manga.
 * Sooo...ewwugh. But that's my piece, I don't care what's decided here just come up with something.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:53, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Hagoromo, Obito and Madara all got the same technique from become the Júbi jinchūriki and it was aptly named after the Sage of the Six Paths. Not Kaguya, not the Jūbi - after Hagoromo. Kaguya is the only one of the four to NOT have become a jinchūriki, because she IS the Jūbi. Her powers are different. The only similarity you have established are flight, which is not unique to jinchūriki, and the TSB - why you are ASSUMING intrinsically connected. There is no evidence of that.

And the only one vandalising this wikia is you, Elve. You are the one that keeps pushing and pushing until people's patience wear thin and they let you have your way. You're like a petulant child throwing a tantrum, and I've had enough of it. Fox, Ultimate and myself are in disagreement with you. Your wishes do not outweigh our dissenting views. Enough. You have been overruled 3 to 1.--Reliops (talk) 16:58, August 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * As a viewer to this discussion, I'm just going to step in and tell you all to stop these stupid discussions. They are leading nowhere and cause daily arguments and are not improving this wiki in any way. If you want to fight it out like this, do it in the forums and not on talkpages. If you can't hold yourself, expect to be listed for a block. --SuperSajuuk Talk Page 17:01, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ultimate, I tend to agree with you that some things we just have to figure out for ourselves by connecting dots. That's why, for example, I supported Ashura to be listed as a jinchūriki and Gaara as a Magnet Release user - because we had contextual clues that paint a fairly clear image. This, however, does not. It simply does not make sense. This is the equivalent of mushing together pieces of a puzzle that do not fit together.--Reliops (talk) 17:03, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * What kind of logic is that? Jinchuuriki use powers of their Tailed Beast, so Kaguya is not a user for the SOLE FRAKING REASON that it has her son's namesake? That's retarded, sorry, it really is. So If Rasengan were called "Minato's magical sphere from smelly behind" then Naruto, Jiraiya, Kakashi, Konohamaru and whichever dumbass wouldn't be users, because their name isn't Minato. Unless they were Minato's jinchuuriki of course, then and only then would they be users, you are brilliant little boy--Elveonora (talk) 17:07, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * No... if you were reading correctly she's not a jinchuriki because she's the tailed beast itself (Edit) And it's named after Hagoromo because he's the first to legitimately use the technique. Which is why it's not called "Kaguya's Sage Technique"Riptide240 (talk) 17:12, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * So? Tailed Beasts can't use powers that their jinchuuriki can, which the jinchuuriki got from their Tailed Beasts in the first place?--Elveonora (talk) 17:13, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * This would be the same as listing the Nine Tails as a user of Nine Tails Chakra Mode Riptide240 (talk) 17:16, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Chakra mode is something Naruto does with Kurama's chakra, if Kurama could do it with its own chakra, then sure, it would be a user too. This is different, in this very chapter we have observed Kaguya use a Truth Seeking Ball. The only ones who can use it are those with Six Paths Senjutsu, so I really don't see why it should exclude her.--Elveonora (talk) 17:19, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah that true, she should be listed as a user, that i agree with you on. Because the Six Paths Senjutsu is the parent technique of the TSB Riptide240 (talk) 17:21, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then what was the point of arguing and getting me all angered to the point of an amok?--Elveonora (talk) 17:22, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Im just looking at it logically: If the TSBs are the mark of someone with the Six Paths' Senjutsu, then Kaguya qualifies Riptide240 (talk) 17:31, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hagoromo was shown using TSB prior to Kaguya's sealing (in her memories), so how exactly is she a user of his senjutsu, if he could use them before sealing her? Its obviously part of his power, hence its name and its appearing upon his giving Naruto half of his power. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 17:31, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's pretty obvious nobody here paid any attention to my message above. I highly recommend people read it or I'm just going to start listing people for blocks for disruptive editing. --SuperSajuuk Talk Page 17:32, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

@Ten Tailed Fox Yes but the six path's senjutsu is said to be obtaind by having the tentails chakra, which she does have. It's even listed on the article, you guys contradict yourselves too much 17:35, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

@Foxie, yeah, how come can Hagoromo use Rinnegan? Kaguya had it before him, so he shouldn't. And how could Hamura use Byakugan, it was Kaguya's. How come my son resembles me? You can't explain that, mysteries of the universe... fucking magnets, how do they work? Also Funny trivia: I didn't notice until now that Reliops and Riptide240 are two different editors, my excuses for that, the usernames are similar, I found it strange that the person disagreeing with me suddenly happened to agree with me--Elveonora (talk) 17:37, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Wow lol Riptide240 (talk) 17:40, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Anyway, Six Paths Sage Technique is listed as parent to Truth Seeking Balls and Kaguya has used the latter, so you Foxie are responsible for all the kind of stupid.--Elveonora (talk) 17:50, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

So are we going to do something with this? He who must not be named and his death eaters refuse to list Kaguya as user of this despite this being parent to Truth Seeking Ball, which she has used.--Elveonora (talk) 13:47, August 21, 2014 (UTC)

Can We...
Can we add a section in the article on the general, shared abilities that the users of this form get? It would look like this:


 * The user's strength, speed and durability are boosted dramatically
 * The user's stamina, reflexes, and regenerative abilities are increased
 * The user gains the ability to fly
 * The user can create chakra arms and Truth Seeking Balls
 * The user gains the ability to use senjutsu (if they couldn't before)

Something i thought of
It was stated Kakashi now has the six paths sage power, Naruto does too and I think this power is not based solely on tb/kaguya/juubi chakra because Naruto was not using the tb/kaguya/juubi chakra when he kicked Madara's truth seeking ball away... he was obviously stronger and augmented and so was Sasuke. I think that Sasuke has this power too as it augments everything... attacks too.. being black colored like Raikiri and Chidori. So maybe Sasuke should be added to this page? Mind you only Senjutsu and Taijutsu can hurt Kaguya and Madara, and Sasuke and Kakashi both did so with black raikiri and black chidori, not to mention when he was using Senjutsu Chakra as a 13yr old with CS2 at valley of the end his chidori turned black then too. I think Sasuke is indeed using the same power as Kakashi, which is the same power as Naruto before using the lava rasenshuriken. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 04:07, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * I noticed some disagreements about this. One person is of the notion that the only reason Senjutsu was stated to be effective was because it cancels out the TSB's YYR effect, while others like me and you are of the notion that it was meant as Senjutsu chakra alone being capable to harm TT jinch. This should get sorted out first. I'm fairly certain that Minato said: "only Senjutsu and physical attacks are effective against a TT jinch" so I think it wasn't meant to refer strictly to the TSB alone, because punching a black orb doesn't make sense--Elveonora (talk) 08:40, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yea, and Kakashi got that power from when Obito impaled Madara, so it is the Six Paths' Senjutsu power. But Sasuke doesn't have this power because he has the sage's chakra in general, but it's still unsure if it's senjutsu or not. I don't have a side to take here. It could very well be senjutsu, or the fact that Sasuke had the Sage's Yin chakra in the hand he formed the chidori with. So maybe Kakshi should be made a user, but idk Riptide240 (talk) 13:16, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * And plus, we don't fully understand what Yin release truly does. Yang Release vitalizes and "breathes life into form". But Yin Release is said to "create form from nothing" so we don't truly understand what that means Riptide240 (talk) 13:43, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sasuke has yet to show all of the powers Hagoromo gave to him. WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contribs) 15:26, August 25, 2014 (UTC)

It is like I said before, I don't think they need to "transform" to use the Senjutsu. Naruto was not "transformed" when he kicked away the truth seeking ball. Therefor Sasuke most definitely has Senjutsu and Kakashi does too. But it isn't blatant enough for some people to accept I guess. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 17:25, August 26, 2014 (UTC)

I don't know if anybody noticed...
If you go to chapter 670 on mangapanda page 17, or any website and look at where Hagoromo's talking about splitting up the Juubi, the shot shows the back of Asura's clothing and it shows the seal for the Six Paths Senjutsu Riptide240 (talk) 16:23, August 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Isn't that Hagoromo's back?--Elveonora (talk) 16:27, August 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm trying to figure that out because you can see the water ripples from Asuras water reflection. And it looks like the person is standing Riptide240 (talk) 16:31, August 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Follow to the next page and you'll see that Hagoromo was revealed to Naruto the event in which he named the Tailed beast. It's Hagoromo's back, most likely. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 16:32, August 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes. considering the speech bubbles talk about said event--Elveonora (talk) 16:34, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

I see, thnx. Plus what are your guys' ideas as to what Asuras inherited powers are. It's killing me and I want to hear some ideas Riptide240 (talk) 16:39, August 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think we all know where Elveo stands on the topic. But I too agree with the idea that he likely inherited the SPST, or atleast has some form of jinchuriki status. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 16:42, August 27, 2014 (UTC)


 * Yea but the only thing that confuses me is that Indra inherited a downgraded version of his father's dojutsu. So did Asura directly inherit the ten tails chakra, or a downgraded version like Indra? Riptide240 (talk) 16:45, August 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Likely.--Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 16:46, August 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * I can 100% say that Ashura didn't inherit this by birth, otherwise his incarnates would be born with it--Elveonora (talk) 16:48, August 27, 2014 (UTC)