Talk:Earth Release: Reduced-Weight Rock Technique

Dust release?
Shouldn't this technique be listed as dust type since Onoki can't be plain levitating and it kinda makes sense that he makes invisible dust molecules that lift him up. T0rw0ri (talk) 16:02, May 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * It might also be a wind release technique, or non-elemental. --ShounenSuki (talk 16:19, May 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, I see. We'll just have to wait to find out more.. (although it seemed like a no-brainer to me :) ) T0rw0ri (talk) 09:52, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

Onoki's Levitation
If you look carefully when Akatsuchi uses his golem technique, it shows him and Onoki standing on the roof. But when Onoki is about to use his cube jutsu, he appears to be floating. But really, he is just floating BACK down to the floor.
 * In chapter 467, he is floating in mid-air.--Deva 27 (talk) 04:05, July 29, 2010 (UTC)

Since they believe that he could fly through the rocky Cloud and find that island, should we not say how he is able to go higher than what was shown in that enclosed room at the Kage summit? GoldenTopaz (talk) 01:44, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

another user.
hello there is another user who can also use this technique, nagato. and ican confirm this.

THANKYOU.
 * I thought that was just a real big jump using chakra (which he had a lot of). GoldenTopaz (talk) 17:33, October 13, 2010 (UTC)

It was a sustained shinra ensei he used before using his gigantic shinra tensei. --RinneganLov63 (talk) 18:19, October 13, 2010 (UTC). Remember he could, thanks to his Rinnegan, manipulate the gravity.

Therefore, by removing the gravity from its diameter, (which would mean zero gravity) he was basically able to float(talk)

Akatsuchi and Kurotsuchi
They are able to use it too, we all can see it in chapter 513.
 * Did you completely miss the part where the Tsuchikage is the one to perform this technique on them? —ShounenSuki (talk 15:32, October 15, 2010 (UTC)

Sure, I did. Or it's better saying that I really didn't remember he was the one to performe the jutsu on them. Thanks.

A confirmed user?
Muu showed that he can fly in chapter 552. And it doesn't look like a high jump since he changed positions and had enough time to do a Jinton.
 * Apparently we're waiting until next week to uhm, get a better angle for confirmation O.o?--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 11:50, August 25, 2011 (UTC)

Flying
Could it be possible that his flight and the ability to give others the ability is a result of his ability to make things weight change? Basicly making them weightless to where they float?

Also his Dust release allows for him to edit particles would editing a persons/objects particles cause there weight to change? Would that make it part of Dust release if it were true?--24.216.163.177 (talk) 09:53, October 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * Read this--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 10:13, October 29, 2011 (UTC)

Flight and Light-Weight Rock Technique
Chapter 563 page 13 confirms the connection between the two.

Kabuto had a flashback of Onoki's punch being too weak when he was flying; an observation he associated with Light-Weight Rock Technique.

A more technical explanation is that his punch had a much weaker momentum due to it's smaller mass (in this case, equivalent to weight), since momentum is the product of mass and speed.--NoJutsu (talk) 22:34, November 9, 2011 (UTC)
 * Kabuto does not understand the workings of this technique. S im A nt 22:41, November 9, 2011 (UTC)

Still I think it bears thought, that there is absolutely no difference between when he bestowed flight upon Aka and Kurotsuchi and when he lightens anything else. It appears to be the same technique just applied to a person instead of an object.Rayfire (talk) 02:12, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

1) This discussion is nearly 3 months old.

2)You can't say there's "absolutely no difference" between those instances since not even characters in the series (even Kabuto) don't understand how it works, much less you. For all we know, in the instance where he hit Kabuto, he also had Light-weight Rock going. Skitts (talk) 03:49, January 30, 2012 (UTC)

@SimAnt, why wouldn't kabuto know? We're talking about a guy that can deduct the nature of a technique and how much damage it will inflict and pre-apply a healing technique before being hit. We're talking about a guy with intelligence on par with kakashi. Saying he wouldn't know is nonsense. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 06:04, April 15, 2012 (UTC)

although i think too little has been shown to classify the flight technique as the light weight rock technique, i do however think that it's note worthy to mention something in the trivia section for the flight technique. would that suffice?98.26.240.179 (talk) 06:26, April 15, 2012 (UTC)

Is no one going to take his suggestion and add it to the trivia section? MangekyoSasuke (talk) 04:57, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

by all means go ahead.98.26.240.179 (talk) 06:50, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, don't know how to do it myself.:(MangekyoSasuke (talk) 19:29, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

No adding. We're waiting for databook. That's why they haven't been merged or anything like that.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 20:45, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

yeah but a trivia section mentioning the similarities of it won't hurt would it?98.26.240.179 (talk) 20:51, May 4, 2012 (UTC)

Game users
In the Naruto Shippuden: Kizuna Drive game Gensui Amagiri and Yomito Hirasaka was shown to use a form of levitation, Gensui by apparently Telekenetic means whilst Yomito simply levitated, i think these should be considered users of this technique, though Gensui could have a page created under Telekenesis as his levitation comes from the appliance of telekenetic power so it could be considered seperate on his side however Yomito would definately be considered a user of the flight technique, is there any objections to list him as a user of the technique? --Zenryoku90 (talk) 00:44, March 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * The manga technique accounts for full flight, including change in direction and speed. Do they display those? If they do, I don't oppose it. However, I don't think it's necessary to create an unnamed article if the information can be simply added to their articles. Those aren't characters whose articles we don't stuff with game content. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:07, March 7, 2012 (UTC)

Konan and Pain
Both Konan and Pain were using this technique, Pain while preparing the Shinra Tensei which destroyed Konoha, and Konan was using it during her fight with Tobi, after she injured him the first time. It always looked like her paper-wings gave her the ability, but there weren't any wings after her attack. Ogga111 (talk) 18:53, September 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Pain was an overtly dramatic jump and Konan flies with her Dance of the Shikigami technique. This article is about Ōnoki flying and allowing others to do the same.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 19:03, September 14, 2012 (UTC)

Obito
nuff said--Elveonora (talk) 11:52, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Indeed, it can be clearly seen after he withstood Tobirama's attack and when Hiruzen bombards him with giant Shuriken.Norleon (talk) 12:07, July 17, 2013 (UTC)

Onoki
Am I really the only one who thinks Onoki flies by becoming lighter with his dotonjutsu? Seelentau 愛議 12:24, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * You mean with this? Norleon (talk) 12:28, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes. By making himself lighter, he flies and by adjusting his weight, he can control how high he can fly. Seelentau 愛議 12:33, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * There's still such a thing as the gravity. If it worked by simply reducing weight, that wouldn't allow him to FLY from place to place, only levitate for a while before eventually descending--Elveonora (talk) 13:20, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah, because you can apply the real world logic on the Naruto world. No really, I know there's gravity, but there's also a technique that renders gravity useless: Earth Release: Light-Weight Rock Technique Seelentau 愛議 13:30, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * I also often thought about it being the same technique, but we don't have an exact proof. It would be nice if we would finally get a new databook....Norleon (talk) 14:17, July 17, 2013 (UTC)

Your Doton dear Seel affects weight, not gravity. As far as we are aware, gravity and chemistry apply still in Kishi's world. By making something lighter, you don't grant it the ability to fly. Not to mention Menma used it too, was he a Doton user as well?--Elveonora (talk) 14:29, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * I know, but when something is lighter than air, it floats in the air. Like a helium balloon, for example. If Onoki makes himself lighter than air, he floats up. If he makes himself heavier, he floats down. By regulating his weight, he can fly up and down. I always thought this was logical, thus we don't have a Flight Technique in the German NP and I always wondered about this article... Seelentau 愛議 14:38, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * We've speculated this to be linked to the dotonjutsu he uses for a long time now. Nothing's been done because there's a "possibility" it isn't.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:50, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Up and down for sure, but not sideways :D--Elveonora (talk) 14:52, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * I know, but there's the same possibility that a link exists. And this possibility weighs more (no pun here), according to my explanation. The sideways part comes from Kishi, because how uncool would it be just to float up and down like a buoy? Seelentau 愛議 14:53, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * They probably have to use chakra or something to manipulate their bodies. Which might make it an entirely different technique or something.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:13, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * If it was just the dotonjutsu to lower his weight to fly, he never would have control over his moviments once in the air unless he managed to control gravity. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 16:09, July 17, 2013 (UTC)

Okay okay, I get it :D It was just a thought I always had, but I guess we can't handle all cases my way, hm^^ Seelentau 愛議 16:26, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * He is Peter Pan, case disclosed--Elveonora (talk) 16:44, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Only way I can picture him going sideways if he's lighter than air is if it's somehow possible to use chakra control, similar to stick to walls and walk on water to push oneself through the air. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:47, July 18, 2013 (UTC)

Obito and Pain
They seem to be flying, but actually it can be interpreted as both the Deva path or flight technique's usage to levitate. Remember Tendo is the ability to maniputale gravity (repulsive, attractive forces and all that stuff). When Pain is about to use the large-scale Shinra Tensei to destroy Konoha, He is clearly seen held in the air. --Rikudo Sennin 47 (talk) 18:18, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes you're right, but what is your point here? Dan.Faulkner (talk) 18:25, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * I presume his point is that in the latest chapter, Obito might have as well used Deva Path to fly instead of Flight Technique. But well, for now this is safer I guess--Elveonora (talk) 18:42, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm with @Elv on this one. If that was @RS47 point. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 18:56, July 17, 2013 (UTC)

I still think Deva Path flying was an anime screw-up. Nothing in the manga indicated such a slow ascent. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:47, July 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Me too, when using Shinra Tensei with that intensity, causes him to lose the ability to control gravity for several amount of time, then he would fall helpless to hundreds of meters, and such think didn't happened if i am correct. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 01:52, July 18, 2013 (UTC)

Where is Obito flying? Because his original form is up in the air? Doesn't seem much different from what happened with the Deva Path.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 17:29, July 18, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry. I had completely forgotten this article for several weeks. So, What was the conclusion? I've noted Deva Path was added to his jutsu Infobox. Yes (Elveonora and Dan). My point is based on the fact that Tendo Pain is held in the air when he is about to obliterate the village.--Rikudo Sennin 47 (talk) 17:41, August 4, 2013 (UTC)

New users
When did Nagato, Madara, and Obito ever fly? --Cerez 365 ™(talk) 14:59, July 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Obito in latest chapter, Nagato is assumed to have been Deva Path and I guess Madara while floating inside of his Susanoo and when arriving at the battlefield like falling star from the heavens--Elveonora (talk) 15:25, July 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Obito's not flying, he's airborne. That substance could be the reason for that though.
 * Nagato The Deva Path flew as much as Tsunade and her Anbu team did- nothing but dramatic effect the anime went too far with. Someone said the body loses all function when it uses those large-scale abilities in the previous discussion, not true: the body can't use it's abilities but that doesn't mean Nagato loses control of the corpse.
 * Madara was suspended inside his Susanoo, how is that flying? Sasuke achieved a similar feat. When did he shooting star onto the battlefield?--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:35, July 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * I can't understand why this stills being discussed, i thought that we all reached a agreement, Nagato was anime exaggeration for dramatic effects like @Cerez said, Sasuke and Madara theres no question there, and Obito i believe is the same feature as Nagato, dramatic effect. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 16:36, July 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * About Obito, shoulda coulda woulda. I checked the manga as well and I see Deva flying there as well. Not to mention even if the said scene is more pronounced in the anime, you can't simply choose to ignore that. Also he was flying in QB vs Pain as well in the forest later on. About Madara, when Obito fought Naruto and Madara to everyone's surprise fell from the sky, wasn't that by flight?--Elveonora (talk) 22:39, July 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Flight is not a common thing in the series. Too many times we find things that look similar and then just lump them in together when people are just airborne. Onoki and the Tsunchikage's ability to fly is something unique and they can actually be identified for it. Obito's done nothing but be airborne, Madara jumped down (how is that flying?) Granted the Deva Path flew in the anime apparently but not in the manga, if he flew then like I said, Tsunade flew as well. Everyone's apparently forgotten that shinobi can jump...--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:20, July 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, all Shinobi can stay airborne for a little while when they jump. But that's because they put force into the jumps. But a character levitating in place for a few seconds is no jumping Cerez. That's what Pain and Obito did. For Madara, jumped from where? He appeared from nowhere in an explosion and smoke like Superman--Elveonora (talk) 18:39, July 20, 2013 (UTC)

nagato I don't think should be a user, in each instance he may have done this, this is a questionable usage, not a direct representation of him doing it. now obito on the other hand is floating all over the damn place, so I think he should stay, but nagato has no defining proof only that he was in a high place, for a slightly prolonged time while using a body that controlled attraction and repulsion...right before he used a massive repulsion that leveled the entire village. also nagato never even moved while in the air, it showed him going up, using a jutsu that falling back to the ground. if he could fly, why did he fall in every instance where he was off the ground, and no where in the woods did he even do anything similar.--J spencer93 (talk) 06:08, August 29, 2013 (UTC)

Ryoutenbin
http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/561/2 In that Madara says "a flying shinobi, then that's iwa's ryotenbin brat". Probably, this technique is unique to Iwagakure and Ryotenbin is an alias who can use flying. I think we should remove Menma too. There should be only tsuchikages. --Salamancc (talk) 16:33, July 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ryōtenbin is Onoki's moniker only and Madara recognized him by his ability to fly. Seelentau 愛議 16:35, July 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Madara looks surprise by seeing a flying shinobi, so it should not be very common, that must be a unique feature to Onoki, and he can teach others. Now... All the others that weren't showed clearly flying Goku's style, should be remove don't they? Dan.Faulkner (talk) 16:47, July 19, 2013 (UTC)

(reset indent) Its as Seen said. Madara has fought Old-Man Tsuchikage before. He knows he can fly, so when he saw him flying into battle, he assumed it was Onoki. End of story. We've seen other shinobi fly, so its not unique to Iwagakure. Stop riding the speculation train. We only report what we know, and thus far, this technique doesn't even have a name; much less do we know where it originated. You can't expect us to pull random things out of our rears like that and put in the articles as fact. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 06:27, August 29, 2013 (UTC)

Pain and Madara
In the episode Planetary Devastation, I recall him flying. Ninja normally jump from tree branch to branch (The anime sometime shows this as flying to save on budget) but he flew around and under a branch, meaning he did literary.--Elveonora (talk) 12:00, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * It could be due to the speed he's flying at, but he did indeed change directions in mid-air. It was pretty short though...Idontcareaboutmyname (talk) 12:13, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Changing direction in mid-air without touching surface is flying in my book--Elveonora (talk) 12:20, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

Uh, didn't he also remain in the air for an extended period of time when he leveled Konoha? I have no doubt Pain can fly, my only question is method. The Tsuchikage appear to do this as a variant of their weight manipulation technique, but Pain would and seemingly does achieve this with his use of gravity/force control. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 14:06, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Earth Release for the last time has nothing to do with the Flight Technique. Making something super light makes it float in place, moved by air currents, not fly as they wish.--Elveonora (talk) 14:21, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

And people can't spew fire at will. There is something to be said for suspension of disbelief, especially with the old problem that writers are writers, not scientists. But let's approach this rationally.

Onoki can fly, as can the other Tsuchikage. It's reasonable to assume the technique is therefore passed down and they all do this the same way. Onoki then passes this ability on to Kurotsuchi and Akatsuchi by direct physical contact, the same means by which he effects the weight of other objects.

Madara, Obito and Pain, all possessed the Rinnegan, and thus the ability to use the Deva Path's manipulation of forces by which they can repel things by will or even create another source of gravitational pull. They do not need to touch other objects directly to effect them in such a manner and if this is the source of their flight, there's no way the Tsuchikage could use it.

So while all the parties mentioned can fly, unless Madara, Obito and Pain all use the same technique as the Tsuchikage to achieve this, it's unlikely they all possess the same "Flight Technique". Just by applying Occam's Razor, the idea with the fewest assumptions is that they both achieve flight by different means. Whereas to assume they all do this the same way, we have to assume that both Madara and Obito saw Onoki do this, copied it with with their Sharingan and used it later (Likely for Madara, less so for Obito) and that Obito somehow taught Nagato to use this technique years ago before it could be reasonably assumed he ever met Onoki. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 14:40, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

Irrelevant, this topic is about Pain's usage in the anime. We don't know how it works, we can only assume, but Earth Release from real-life physics perspective doesn't make sense--Elveonora (talk) 15:11, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

It's hardly irrelevant if it's a key factor in how he and others achieve this ability. Not to mention Ninjutsu as a whole in this series makes little sense from a physics perspective. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 15:19, February 12, 2014 (UTC)

Are you positive Omni? Consensus or not, if his arrival from heavens at Obito's place after having defeated the Kage wasn't flight then I'm not a monkey. Also Pain says bump from grave--Elveonora (talk) 23:01, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Madara was only added as a user of this jutsu today, so from that I'm taking that he wasn't considered a user before. Besides, we only saw him crashing down, no taking off, no mid-flight. There's no logical reason for him to come crashing down strong like that on nothing. If he was flying indeed, wouldn't he have made a smoother landing? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:35, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Really? Because, he was flying this chapter, but didnt have a soft landing.--NaviiGator (A.K.A.KotoSenju)-Talk-Contributions 23:41, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * What Koto said, he made a crater now and so he did then. So someone falling down from heavens doesn't pose you a question as how that person got up there in the first place? Last time I checked there were no buildings to jump off from nor do they have planes in Narutoverse--Elveonora (talk) 23:46, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I moved a sentence about Madara being able to fly from his general ninjutsu section and moved it to his jinchūriki transformation section, on account of the perceived consensus of him not having used this technique before, that I inferred from him only being added to this article today. If he was added before, he was also removed before, and while I think I recall a discussion about it before, it obviously went nowhere or it was agreed that Madara didn't fly, as Madara was not listed as a user earlier today. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:49, February 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * And that's why I'm discussing this again because I disagree. Again, he arrived from above. He could have walked there with Susanoo falling down after dissolving it, but surely they would have sighted a giant chakra construct right next to them or at least notice it making tremors. Why does it even require "faith" on your part, something that's logical and reasonable deduction?--Elveonora (talk) 00:00, February 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * I just want to say, it was never explicitly said that Madara or Obito used this technique because they were the Ten-Tails-Jinchuriki. Don't forget, Madara has the copy-technique power of the Sharingan and battled both Mu and Onoki at least once each. That being said, this could have been one of the technique Madara taught Obito. Shippuden epidoe 349 clearly showed Obito levitating and he clearly wasn't a Jinchuriki. I really think for now we should just classify Obito and Madara's usage as ninjutsu, not tailed beast skill. Steveo920, 19:06, February 12, 2014.

Exactly, I don't get why are some people skeptical naysayers. Where's there trouble about admitting they can fly?--Elveonora (talk) 12:12, February 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * When was the last time we ever actually saw a Sharingan user using a copied technique? The last I recall was Edo Itachi against Sage Kabuto, and even that was only inside a genjutsu, technically making it only a vision. I'm not saying it's impossible that Madara copied the technique, just extremely unlikely. About Obito, canonically, he has only displayed flight as a jinchūriki, so flight should be kept in that section of his abilities, at best with a mention of non-host, anime-only use. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:45, February 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * I can't argue with the Obito one since manga > anime generally, but I wouldn't be so certain it is the ten-tails what allows its hosts to fly. Again, Madara arriving from the sky can only be explained with flight. And he indeed fought both the 2nd and 3rd Tsuchikages, likely met the 1st as well. It's really not farfetched to say he copied it.--Elveonora (talk) 20:00, February 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * That he'd copy, certainly, that he'd use a copied technique, that's another story. Even Kakashi, who has an epithet referring to jutsu copying rarely does it. Last time I remember him copying or using a copied technique was still in Part I against Kisame. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:10, February 13, 2014 (UTC)