Talk:Tobi

PLEASE DO NOT MAKE DUPLICATE TOPICS, STICK TO THE ONES ALREADY THERE, DUPLICATE TOPICS WILL BE REMOVED, RESPONSES TO SPECULATION WILL BE REMOVED WITH THE SPECULATION, READ TOPICS BEFORE ASKING SOMETHING THAT'S ALREADY ANSWERED, DO NOT INSERT SPECULATION INTO THE DISCUSSIONS

Tobi knowing the Jinchuriki's Powers
Seeing as Tobi seems to have complete control of the revived Jinchuriki (without Kabuto's help) can we say that he seems to also know about their abilities as well in his trivia? I'm asking cause it was shown in the latest chapter that he also uses the black rods to control them and as such should be able to make them use any ability he wants them to right? Joshbl56 21:32, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

looking whats behind The mask
I was just wondering,why didnt any hyuga clan or uchiha clan member try to see whats behind that mask with their dojutsu.so that means they were not able to.

so was it because tobi put some kind of barrier jutsu on the mask??? --Charmanking2198 (talk) 20:21, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

Simple answer ... the mask is magic! --Elveonora (talk) 20:32, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

Sharingan can't see through materials. Byakugan seams only to be able to see the looks of a person at close ranges. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 20:40, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

OH, OK thx.--41.105.203.15 (talk) 19:25, December 2, 2011 (UTC)

Article Name Change
So, I know that it's obvious by now that Madara Uchiha and the man called "Tobi" are two separate entities despite their origin. However, I question the name of the article and character being called "Tobi" as this name was only used to describe his childish persona and abandoned this title (that he never once labeled himself in the first place until chapter 564 and only did so mockingly because he didn't care about his name) after he revealed his "true identity" to everyone as "Madara." In addition, Nagato - who likely knows of both Madara and "Tobi" due to Madara's prediction that he was revived by Nagato with Rinne Tensei - has called this man by the name of Madara on several occasions.

On the contrary, Zetsu still calls this man as Tobi, but for all that has been revealed, we don't know if Zetsu is even aware of this mysterious antagonists' true identity, and I believe the fact that Madara - who has the greatest chance of knowing this masked figure's origin due to their collaboration and who this person has been labeling himself after - himself has mentioned Nagato credits him more than Zetsu, whom he has yet to acknowledge.

Thus, I propose that the article name be changed to something along the lines of "Masked Madara" or perhaps even "Other Madara" until further information about this controversial character is unveiled. The lack of evidence for Zetsu knowing the truth discredits him and is essentially based on speculation. Madara is the only person in the Naruto universe that can be trusted regarding information on this character, and Nagato establishes a much greater connection with him than Zetsu currently does. --Axel Carnage (talk) 08:58, December 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * It's easier to juts call this one by his old name "Tobi"--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 12:30, December 4, 2011 (UTC)
 * It could also very well be that Nagato is in the dark about everything and Zetsu knows full-well who Tobi is, and has never called him "Madara" for other reasons. Also, what TheUltimate3 said since I personally cannot take the headache of another change like that for now.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 13:01, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

While I understand the simplicity of referring to him as Tobi, every character except for Zetsu has referred to this man as Madara. Even after it was discovered that the original Madara was resurrected via Edo Tensei, the Kages themselves still continued to refer to him as "Madara." To label this man as such because of Zetsu, a character who is just as mysterious as this person himself, seems illogical and unreasonable. Regardless of his true identity, this antagonist has been revered as Madara by all of the protagonists, as well as his fellow minions, with the exception of Zetsu and those who died before he revealed his identity. Two of the people that originally titled him as "Tobi", Nagato and Kisame, dropped the name altogether.

One other controversy I'd like to point out is the video games. How is it going to be distinguished on the articles between which masked figure is playable? For example, it's very likely that "Tobi" will be returning in Ultimate Ninja Storm Generations, as well as the new man that dropped this immature persona and is referred to as "Madara." However, if you cannot label him as such, what are you going to call him? Two different personalities basically means two different characters, especially in video games, so why is he still referred to as his past personality? If it is a matter of going back and editing every piece of information that involves this character, I will be more than happy to assist, but the title he currently possesses seems inaccurate if he is widely regarded as "Madara" even after this major plot twist. --Axel Carnage (talk) 22:06, December 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * There's already a Madara, I don't think we're going to change and article name from a name "Tobi" to something like "Other Madara"
 * I really don't see how it is illogical or unreasonable to call him such he himself told them to call him whatever they wanted.
 * I also don't understand why you think that his "childish" persona is Tobi alone. Why are you separating his personalities into two different people?
 * We'll call him 'Tobi'.
 * Two different personalities basically means he's Schizophrenic not two entirely different persons.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 22:13, December 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * Which is why I proposed you put the term "Masked" in front of his name until he stops donning one altogether. Or at least some other indication that distinguishes between the two Madaras.
 * If you were going off of his own word, you'd be calling him simply as "Madara" because he has labeled himself as such numerous times, many more than "Tobi." At this point, it would be more accurate to title him as "No One" than "Tobi" given the lack of characters that refer to him in this manner.
 * He referred to "Tobi" as his "old name" and thus is not currently what he would go by. This Wikia even had "Tobi" described as his goofy personality alone before this plot twist, but now because of laziness, he has been completely labeled as such?
 * A "person" can be referred to as a personality alone, not just a single entity. "Tobi" and this "Madara" are two different characters by technical standards.--Axel Carnage (talk) 22:39, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

@Cerez, schizophrenia and dissociative identity disorder are 2 different things. --Elveonora (talk) 22:41, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Yes but if we put masked there, it will sound like he wasn't named. The databook has an entry for him as Tobi (and Madara I think). I think people who follow the Naruto series should know enough to distinguish the two. There's also the disambiguation page when you search for "Madara Uchiha". There's already a "Madara" so for the sake of people not getting confused until their relation to one another is fully disclosed, he's being referred to as his "former/initial" name. He was described as such because that's how the information was presented to us at first when he was believed to have been the- for want of a better word-'original' Madara acting under the guise of Tobi within Akatsuki. I think that as it stands now, it's much easier for people to distinguish the two without having to call him "Other Madara" or something like that.--Cerez365™ 22:48, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Again, I completely understand how easy it is to label him as Tobi, but fans of the series that aren't quite up to date in the manga will still recognize him as the only Madara. I can also somewhat understand why adding a term like "masked" would sound like he wasn't named, but as long as "Masked Madara" is included wherever his name is mentioned, it should suffice. If you disregard the simplicity of the manner, it's blatant that he should be called "Madara" in some way, shape, or form due to it being the name he has gained recognition from (and still is) and what he labels his own self. I just don't understand why call him by a name that he doesn't use himself and that no one else in the current timeline save for Zetsu uses. Besides which, "Tobi" isn't even his real name; we know that for certain.

Furthermore, regardless if he originally was someone else, he is now Madara. His mind, arguably his physical traits, his fashion, and his chakra (in that he was able to summon the Kyubi without utilizing a Mangekyo Sharingan). If he is mentally Madara, physically Madara, and contains a portion of Madara's power, is he not Madara? What defines a character in this series according to you? What are the chances of this man being a complete poser and actually a completely different person? The databook, as you mentioned, lists that Tobi is Madara and Madara is Tobi and as previously debated, there are no blatant false statements in the databooks, just missing pieces of information. Eventually, you're going to be naming this being along the lines of "Clone Madara" either way. --Axel Carnage (talk) 18:52, December 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * I will agree with calling him "Masked Madara" in other spots for people who haven't read all the chapters but not naming him Madara. He also said that it didn't matter what anyone called him (Look in his quotes) and Tobi is the only name we have for him since Kabuto has also called him a "fake".

I don't know where you're getting that he is now Madara, he only used that name because it is infamous. As for physical traits, we've only seen the side of his face, which is wrinkled, and the only thing that's the same is that they both have black hair and the sharingan, which all Uchiha's have. He could simply being wearing the same thing Madara does to try to stay with calling himself Madara. Also, things do change after the databook (like Wood Release). (I tried answering in the same way he posted his argument) Joshbl56  19:09, December 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * I would not go around making predictions about he future or what Tobi is or is not. Let's let things run their course and see what happens with that.
 * As for calling this character Tobi, I personally see no problem with that. Even the third databook lists this character under Tobi, despite also covering Madara–Tobi and not just Goofy Tobi. —ShounenSuki (talk 19:14, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

As Tsunade said ... "Madara" is not just a person, its an ideal. Tobi is as much "Madara" as anyone with the same ideals and plans would be. Meaning of Madara's name is power and fear. The masked man believes he deserves be called "Madara" He said it himself, his name does not matter ... all he cares about is Moon Eye Plan. The masked man will most likely turn out to be person we have heard of before. As soon as the person's identity is revealed, it will be renamed. Calling him Masked Madara or Fake Madara is too much, there's already a disambiguation page for "Madara" And even though Tobi is most likely not the person's name, he used the persona and other than "Madara" its the only name we know of ... We can name him "the man who isn't anyone" though :P --Elveonora (talk) 22:16, December 5, 2011 (UTC)

So you people truly believe he's just a fake, eh? That he's posing as Madara to instill fear into his enemies, right? The fact that he possesses the power of the seven tailed beasts and that he's the leader/founder of Akatsuki wasn't a factor in the shitting of pants by the Alliance, correct? Just the name alone was what did it, despite him saying he was a shell of his former self and is powerless from the wound inflicted upon him by Hashirama, right? Give me a break. That speech Tsunade came up with was a bunch of bull to justify the existence of two entities labeled as Madara. Everything this masked man has said, with the exception of lying to Sasuke about the manipulation of the Kyubi sixteen years ago, has been true. So why would he lie about something so miniscule as his name? If he doesn't care who he is, why would he try so hard to be like Madara? Your arguments contradict themselves. The fact he states he is no one just supports my theory.

As for the physical features, his hair was practically identical to Madara's when he met Itachi and recruited Kisame. If he was already wearing a mask, why would he care what his hair looked like and try so hard to copy Madara's signature style? Regarding his fashion, the gloves, the fan, and the Uchiha robes are all identical to Madara's. Someone also mentioned before that his eyes were the same distinctive shape as well, which I too see. His mind: his vast knowledge of the Uchiha clan, particularly the details about Izuna that only he or someone very old could know, and of the ninja world in general. Please, with the exception of his original appearance that Edo Madara currently has, enlighten me how this man is not Madara Uchiha. The evidence is overwhelming and people that try to come up with theories based on who he could be are wasting their time as he has already stated on numerous occasions who he is. By the way, Kishimoto just had him tell a woman who was on the brink of existence, Konan, that he was Madara and why he fought Hashirama in the Valley of the End.

Well, I've made my point. I didn't make this topic to argue but I severely believe his name should be Madara in one way or another based on the ridiculous amount of similarities he has in common with the character that is known as Madara Uchiha. If not for that, because he is highly recognized as a Madara by a large quantity of characters. --Axel Carnage (talk) 23:07, December 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * Well, I will agree with you on the point that he should be called Masked Madara in the older story (like when he actually called himself Madara and whatnot). As for calling this page Madara, no, that's ridiculous as it doesn't matter how much he acts like Madara or is recognized as Madara by characters, he has in no way shown us that he is Madara, especially after Edo Madara was revived and his quote about him being no one. Maybe we can put it in his/Edo Madara's trivia about their similarities but that's as far as I see this going until his face is revealed. That's my say. Joshbl56  00:33, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

Third Databook lists him under the name Tobi, as well as stating in both his and Madara's articles that he and Madara are one and the same by the way (we'll see if that holds up, though the DBs have never blatantly been misinformative before). Yes, just his name who cause the Allied Forces to, erm, "shit their pants", as he is one of the most powerful ninjas to ever live, so why wouldn't they be freaked? Just with taijutsu he took out significant portions of the fourth division. And what Tsunade said wasn't bull. He didn't say that he wasn't Madara. He just said he didn't care what they called him. However, to get the war started more quickly, he needed the clout that Madara has, which is why he told them that at that time. And yes, I do believe this is in fact Madara. In fact, many of the people that your behaving somewhat rudely to believe that as well. However. there is some evidence against that, namely the fact that Madara has being revived with Edo Tensei. Thus, for the time being, he will be referred to as Tobi and that is not changing until we know for sure. Skitts (talk) 00:55, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

I don't believe he is Madara at all, I have my bet but this is not a place to post it in ... check my talkpage if you are interested.

I believe the databooks only cover "facts" until the point in manga when something is revealed or new databook comes out. That would be stupid to reveal his identity in databook before the manga shows that out. That would be like revealing a videogame's plot all with ending in it's manual. All he said to Konan is true, but remember ... he actually believes to be Uchiha Madara. Your argument has no value. He is also a good boy, remember ? If you believe that someone of Madara's caliber would act as a goofy child, wear a mask and saying he is no one ... whatever help you sleep at night.

Kabuto said he is at Edo Madara's side, so if Edo Madara and Tobi are the same person ... would be funny to plot stuff against yourself. --Elveonora (talk) 02:49, December 6, 2011 (UTC)

Shouldn't Sources be listed in all sections?

Little confused x)
When Tobi moves in on Naruto, was he planning on taking Naruto into his own personal dimension? For a minute I though he was going to extract the Kyuubi but stopped that thought in tracks because he wouldn't be able to do so by himself and with such little time. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 01:31, December 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah. he was going to warp him it seems like the logical choice. His tailed beast extraction technique takes some time to set up and I don't think the Rinnegan gives him access to any other tailed beast extraction abilities.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 01:38, December 10, 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Cerez (: Yeah, I thought as much. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 02:12, December 10, 2011 (UTC)

Recent edits
A user in question, Cerez365 has recently been undoing my edits on Tobi and Madara. The specifics of what I did lies with the false info lingering on Tobi's page from back when he was believed to be Madara. I edited it slightly so that we aren't giving false information that Tobi hates Hashirama because he's "a descendant of the sage of 6 paths' firstborn son". All this belongs on Madara's page.. it's unclear now if Tobi's even an Uchiha, or even human at all.. We need to wait for his identity to be revealed, in the meantime treat him like the mystery he used to be. Anyone undoing my edits is subsequently hiding the fact that most of these revelations about Tobi were lies.. nothing's clear at this point, but tidying up the pages shouldn't be undone so easily.. just saying. --M4ND0N (talk) 00:31, December 13, 2011 (UTC)

I should add, however that I got a little annoyed and my post above may come off as rather rude. I think the point I'm trying to make is we should ultimately remove all the stuff from Tobi's page that was added as a result of believing him to be Madara. Now that it's clear he isn't, Tobi's just a mysterious liar.. he has no past that we know of, besides the stuff he did in Konoha and his activity controlling the Mizukage. everything before that belongs in Madara's page. --M4ND0N (talk) 00:40, December 13, 2011 (UTC)

Except we don't know for certain whether or not Tobi isn't Madara. There is quite a bit of evidence that he is (more so I'd say than he isn't) Madara. Skitts (talk) 00:43, December 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * "A user in question" i♥it! Any way, what you are doing is taking things that Tobi has said and either removing it or transferring them to Madara, or even making it unclear with assumptions of "it is unknown if x or y" which I don't think we should do. Simply for the fact that there are so many unknowns surrounding both men that I don't think doing anything like that at the moment would be safe representation of information. We're supposed to represent information as it is given even if Tobi, under what is seemingly the "guise" of Madara Uchiha had said he hated his mother for example. It is still unknown whether or not Tobi is lying because there is information that points in the other direction.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 00:48, December 13, 2011 (UTC)

Chain, eye, or both?
When Tobi suppressed the Five-Tails, you can see its eye with a Sharingan, similar to how the Nine-Tails got when it was controlled. Since we don't have much to go on with, I think that we should mentioned that Tobi used both the chains and the Sharingan to suppress the Five-Tails. Does everyone agree? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 13:24, December 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yup.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 13:25, December 14, 2011 (UTC)

Isn't it this as well ? 0_o I sense some shit going on ... --Elveonora (talk) 17:19, December 14, 2011 (UTC)

Intangibility and the chain
Should it be mentioned somewhere that Tobi was able to become completely intangible while still having his chakra chain active as we've seen him having to stop whatever he is doing to become intangible? Joshbl56 13:39, December 14, 2011 (UTC)

If you look on page 7, you see that he creates the chain from chakra emanating from his hand, so I'm not really surprised that he could use that while intangible. Anyway, his hand was already outside of the object he was passing through, so he might have already made that hand tangible since it was out. Skitts (talk) 18:17, December 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * Tobi can't make pieces of himself tangible and others intangible if I remember correctly it's all or nothing. But I agree that because it's chakra it didn't 'slip' through or something like that.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 18:26, December 14, 2011 (UTC)

CH. 567
In 567, Kakashi and Tobi's interaction indicates that Tobi could use the abilities of the Six Paths of Pain had he had more control over the Tailed Beasts. Would that be enough to consider adding them to his infobox? Skitts (talk) 18:13, December 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually I think this still falls under he basically hasn't used them. Though we know that he can use them mostly because he possess the Rinnegan. It not that if he had more control over them, it's if the mechanisms of the techniques weren't known to Konoha shinobi.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 18:26, December 14, 2011 (UTC)

Hm, are you sure? In Stream's translation Guy and Kakashi come to the conclusion that it's because Tobi's having to use so much chakra just to control them that he isn't using Pain's abilities.

Edit: Oh wait, now I see what you said. Misread it. Skitts (talk) 18:38, December 14, 2011 (UTC)

Suppressing Tailed Beast
Should it be mentioned somewhere that he's the only character to be able to suppress a tailed beast without the use of Wood Release? I'm asking cause he was still able to suppress the Five-Tails even after his control wavered (although, he did use the sharingan to control it). Joshbl56 01:40, December 17, 2011 (UTC)

*cough*. Skitts (talk) 01:46, December 17, 2011 (UTC)

No, Tobi did it years earlier with just sharingan, Madara decades before.Umishiru (talk) 01:48, December 17, 2011 (UTC)

Well to be fair Skitts, the Uzumaki are descended from the Senju whose blood/legacy I believe is more important than Hashirama's Mokuton by itself. Anyway, Tobi did use his Sharingan to control the beast not the chain that was just to restrain the Gobi.--Cerez365™ 01:50, December 17, 2011 (UTC)

I didn't mean just control the tailed beast but completely suppress it, like how Yamato does with this. Joshbl56 01:59, December 17, 2011 (UTC)

Well, I was referring more to Kushina than Tobi, whose chakra alone was ideal to suppress the complete Kyubi (though that was post sealing). And like Umishiru said, the Sharingan is another example. Sasuke used it to suppress the Nine-Tails as well, not control it. Skitts (talk) 02:01, December 17, 2011 (UTC)

But, he didn't completely suppress it. He just forced it back into Version 2. Which could be him controlling their body with Rinnegan and then subduing them with the Sharingan me thinks. Alsooo! I must stage once more that Sasuke suppressed traces of the Nine-Tails' chakra that had leaked out of the cage, not the beast itself. I'm still not too clear on what you mean about Kushina though.--Cerez365™ 02:38, December 17, 2011 (UTC)


 * I think he is talking about how her chakra was ideal for suppressing the Nine-Tails. Joshbl56  02:43, December 17, 2011 (UTC)

Its cool and all, but Tobi has Hashirama's cells. --Elveonora (talk) 04:36, December 17, 2011 (UTC)

Joshbl56 is right; 'twas what I meant. Anyway, many of the things Tobi has spoken of and has shown ability-wise recently has been to suppress Tailed Beasts: Chakra Chains, Sharingan, acquisition of Hashirama's DNA, Rinnegan (maybe?) ,Chakra Disruption Rods. Skitts (talk) 06:29, December 17, 2011 (UTC)

Chakra Natures
I was wondering, on Tobi's page, it says he only possess Earth, Yin, Yang and Yin-Yang Releases. But since he have the Rinnegan isn't it save to that he have Fire, Water, Wind and Lighting too? since we know that one of the Abilities of the Rinnegan is that it grants it user mastery over all five basic nature transformations. KenjiNitari (talk) 20:19, December 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * With the Rinnegan you possess the ability to master the basic elements. Whether or not you want to do that is up to you. We duuno if Tobi has taken that route like Nagato did in his training with Jiraiya.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 20:24, December 29, 2011 (UTC)

Tobi's clan
Tobi had the Sharingan in both of his eyes and the ability to deactivate them at will to keep them unnoticeable, so wouldn't that mean that he is an Uchiha clan member? I am asking because what clan he is from isn't listed in his article profile. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 18:40, January 1, 2012 (UTC))
 * For my opinion, it was never shown when he activate his sharingan. If there is, can you give me the link? ^_^ --Ilnarutoanime -NejiLoverr- 18:43, January 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * Like I mentioned in the edit summary, Tobi was never shown with a deactivated Sharingan, only with his mask in angles which obscure his eyes, making it impossible to see them, Sharigan activated or not. If there is such a panel, please show it us. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:47, January 1, 2012 (UTC)

Do you think someone like Kakashi would have missed a Sharingan on Tobi because of that? Especially with his own active? Seems to be almost no other way Kakashi would have missed that. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 18:54, January 1, 2012 (UTC))
 * Tobi is almost very fast in battle. -Ilnarutoanime -NejiLoverr- 18:56, January 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * If simply seeing chakra flow was enough, someone in Konoha would have figured Danzō a long time ago, he has an eye just like Kakashi, a transplanted arm with cells from the First Hokage boosting his stamina and plus ten Sharingan. If no Hyūga ever glimpsed it while scouting the village for something, I perfectly believe Kakashi would have missed Tobi's Sharingan. Not to mention Tobi's chakra disappears when he uses his space-time techniques. Plus, you're the one trying to prove something, burden of proof is on you. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:59, January 1, 2012 (UTC)

Tobi was shown with a deactivated Sharingan during his battle with Konan. His left eye deactivated right after he used Izanagi. Danzo's, however, didn't deactivate after the use of Izanagi. They just closed. This seems to show that tobi is an Uchiha and a natural owner of the Sharingan. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 19:09, January 1, 2012 (UTC))
 * The sharingan wasn't deactivated. Look here.--Ilnarutoanime -NejiLoverr- 19:13, January 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * And if you're talking about the next page, you can see his eye closing. The lids are just on top of where the tomoe would be. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:15, January 1, 2012 (UTC)

Wood Release
Can he use Wood Release, you know because he has the cells of the First Hokage? Ultimatex (talk) 23:32, January 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * That can't be know or better yet, won't be listed until he actually uses it.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 23:40, January 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * Read the lengthy topic on it in Archive 7. Nothing changed since them, so no point in further discussion. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:51, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

Jutsu
I've noticed that the infobox it's missing some of the jutsu Tobi used, like Human Path or Summoning: Demonic Statue of the Outer Path why is that? Ultimatex (talk) 13:44, January 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * He only threatened to use the Ningendo. There was a discussion a while back that decided to leave it off until he actually does use it. He also didn't use the Summoning: Demonic Statue of the Outer Path technique- he just summoned the statue to the battlefield.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 14:00, January 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * Ok but he used Izanagi and the Six Paths of Pain and they are not in the infobox. Why? Ultimatex (talk) 14:04, January 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Not too sure. It seems like there's a bug or something in the systems I've noticed quite a few people missing techniques from their infoboxes. If you click "jutsu" though in the infobox you'll see a full list. Human Path is there btw.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 14:06, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

Missing
Can anybody fix the glitch that doesn't show all of the jutsus Tobi used it's annoying the hell out of me. Ultimatex (talk) 21:35, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

We can't fix any glitches that have to do with the actual coding of the wiki. I'm assuming it's the glitch that we've seen many times here, so I assume that it'll be fixed. Skitts (talk) 22:09, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

Tobi's Current Appearance Description (Hair)
Currently the wiki states,

"Tobi has worn masks of varying designs over the years. In the past he wore a flame-patterned mask, accompanied by long hair reminiscent of Madara Uchiha. When he later switches to an orange, swirl-pattern mask he cuts his hair back considerably."

I'd like to propose a slight revision to this description based on what's actually shown in the manga.

1) At first, Tobi/Madara attacks Konoha (Short Hair) (Chapter 502-503)

2) Seven years later when he meets Tobi/Madara (Long Hair) (Chapter 400)

3) Eight years later 21 when Tobi joins Akatsuki (Short Hair)

Kisame meets Tobi/Madara at some point prior to 3, (Chapter 507), when he also has long hair.

This is at least enough to show that the Masked individual(s) didn't just have long hair during the past, and this description should probably be modified to better detail that.

Now, while this is speculation, I'd be willing to propose that this is because the individual with long hair is Madara, while the short haired one is Tobi - Madara would be remaining in the shadows prior to dying (expecting to be raised by Nagato's Rinne Tensei, as he mentions in Chapter 559 means he knows of Nagato before his death), where Tobi was involved in all of the direct combat due to his more versatile physical form.

SINCE THIS CAN'T BE TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT IN THE WIKI, this shows that there is at least the possibility that one of those masked forms is Madara, due to his line about Nagato, so it might be a good idea to state that he MAY HAVE had long hair, rather than the fact that he DID.


 * That makes no sense. Tobi has been confirmed not to be Madara Uchiha. They are two different people, although Tobi's identity is still unknown. --speysider (talk) 01:17, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

I tried to read all that you said IP user, and while I think this'll fall under the branch of forum talk, I do think that Madara might be one (well two) of those masked figures. However, for simplicity and I suppose transparency, all instances with a mask is considered to be Tobi for now at least.— Cerez365™ 01:39, January 7, 2012 (UTC)

This is all irrelevant as Kisame has identified the man that bore long hair during his recruitment as the same man as currently wielding the mask. I fail to understand why people find it so hard to believe he is capable of growing his hair to an extensive length in seven years.

Also, I'd like to point out that this statement is false: "Another testament to his manipulation ability is his efforts to operate under Madara's name for the sole purpose of igniting war." Did he not also use Madara's name to recruit Kisame, in front of the other Akatsuki members, and to boast about his achievements to Konan? None of the aforementioned events had any direct correlation to the war. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 01:59, January 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * No one ever said it was impossible for someone to grown their hair and cut it, so I'm not too sure what this tirade is for. Kisame was also not recruited into Akatsuki under the influence of the name "Madara Uchiha", he was incited into the group under the promise to rid the world of falsehoods. That last bit sounds familiar, I think it simply got overlooked in the removal.— Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 02:15, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Regardless, Kisame would not have taken up on his offer to join Akatsuki had the man not identified himself, hence all of the questioning. Furthermore, even when he does reveal himself as Madara, Kisame still demands that he show himself as he is familiar with Madara's "death" and is skeptical of his words. This applies to both of my comments, in that Tobi still used Madara's name to recruit Kisame (regardless of Kisame's other purposes for joining the organization) and that Kisame recognized Madara's face and later identified the masked man as the same person who controlled Yagura. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 02:26, January 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * Actually we'll never know whether or not Kisame would've taken the offer otherwise because that situation was never presented. Of course you'd be sceptical if someone claimed to be a person that was dead that doesn't mean the name incited him into the group. In any case, since the statement was removed I don't see any reason in prolonging this. We're all entitled to our own opinions I suppose.Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 02:34, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

I understand, I was just killing two birds with one stone by clarifying that Kisame did indeed identify the masked man as the same one who initially recruited him into Akatsuki, which proves that the length of a man's hair is really not all that relevant (despite his hairstyle being nearly identical to Madara's). --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 02:43, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Interesting note is that Kurama/Kyubi mentions only Madara Uchiha controlling him, the masked man 16 years ago did so. Yet Kurama never after that mentions Tobi being Madara indicating their chakras are different and that the one that took control of Kurama was indeed Madara and not Tobi --Elveonora (talk) 08:48, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

Kisame joined to be free from a "world of lies", not because of the claim the Masked Man made, hence his disbelief and lack of trust in regards to the statement, though th fact that upon seeing Tobi's face he immediately recognized him as the "Madara" he met before is notable. @Elevenora At the risk of assisting you in making forum talk, to be fair, Kurama doesn't have th ability to sense chakra as far as I can tell. Though, the situation surrounding TobiDara is quite a doozy. Skitts (talk) 08:56, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

@Skitts http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Kurama#cite_note-41 --Elveonora (talk) 10:04, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

@Elveonora Kurama never mentioned Tobi as the one controlling him because he never said any "words of wisdom" to the beast. Kurama was only recalling people that had said things that referred to him in a manner of being used. Tobi simply controlled him without saying a word. In addition, it's possible Kurama did recognize Tobi in chapter 501. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 20:34, January 8, 2012 (UTC)

chakra chains ...
Kushina had the chakra chains as Tobi and now it was separated into 2 different things. But Tobi's and Kushina's chains are the same and even the seals are the same. I don't think what Tobi said in latest chapter means that the chains is power of Rinnegan/Outher Path. Nagato has shown nothing like that. What he meant is the binding power when pierced with the rod, not the chain ...--Elveonora (talk) 14:18, January 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * From what we know, Kushina does not have the Outer Path ability. It'd look pretty dumb if her technique is tagged as being derived from Gedō. Tobi also wasn't the only one to say this, Son said it a few times. Along with that, I doubt Nagato showed us every ability of the Rinnegan, doesn't mean it doesn't have more.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 14:25, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

No, I'm not saying Kushina used Outer Path ability ... I said it's that he meant the binding power of chakra rod. But that does not mean the chakra chains are outer path ability just simply he is using the chains with the help of the rod. The very same thing was shown when he dragged Kyubi out of Kushina, so the only reasonable things are that:
 * The Masked man that took Kyubi 16 years ago had Rinnegan
 * It's not Rinnegan ability

--Elveonora (talk) 14:30, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

Though I'm a bit confused. Son called the receivers the source of the chains. Then credits them as being from the Outer Path. With regards to Kurama's extraction from Kushina, Tobi didn't use any chains, those were the chains that bound Kurama in Kushina's mind/seal. The only thing Tobi userd were what seemed to be corporeal sealing formulae, not chains.--Cerez365™ 14:37, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but we know how correct the translation is. Better to wait for ShounenSuki I guess. Then are you saying Kushina has Outher Path ? Cause the chains and seal are the same. I'm just asking for Tobi being returned back as the user of chakra chains (the same as Kushina) for the time being, and these "outher path chains" being a delivered technique from it. --Elveonora (talk) 14:41, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

No, I'm not. I'm saying that they simply look similar. I personally think it's fine the way it is now.--Cerez365™ 14:48, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

I see, but should not be Nagato added as an user then ? Even ignoring the chains, it's the same thing as Nagato did. Controlling/Subduing everyone pierced with the rods ... that's the problem I have, it's called chakra chains of outer path but Nagato shown no chains at all. --Elveonora (talk) 14:52, January 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * That's just it. We never saw him do it. That's like saying the Sage should be added as well because he has the Rinnegan. So if Tobi uses another ability now and says it stems from a Path or the Rinnegan, are you going to dispute it because Nagato has never used it before?--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 14:59, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

Nagato was able to use all the paths himself, there would be no point in not doing so if he could. Just pointing out mangastream and mangareader translations kinda differ in that part.--Elveonora (talk) 15:09, January 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * That still doesn't make sense to me, just because Nagato didn't use it, means it's not an ability? Just because he can do something doesn't mean that he had the opportunity or the need to do it. I'm pretty sure we haven't seen every technique in his arsenal.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 15:26, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

Nagato had the Rinnegan given to him, and it's obvious now that with Tobi's statement about the chains being more powerful, that Nagato was unable to use the Rinnegan to its fullest potential. More evidence that supports this is that Nagato was unable to revive Jiraiya or anyone dead for more than about a day, yet it's very likely Tobi intended to revive Madara with Rinne Tensei, who had been deceased for quite some time, hence the reason he cursed Nagato and constantly talking about his betrayal.

Either way, Nagato is evidently not as familiar with the dojutsu's techniques, and it makes perfect sense that Tobi is able to utilize it to a greater extent. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 00:07, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

We don't actually know exactly what Tobi meant by "giving" Nagato the Rinnegan. We did see him activate it. Skitts (talk) 00:16, January 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * First off, you don't know what Tobi meant when he said that, saying that he gave Nagato the Rinnegan could mean a myriad of things until Kishimoto tells us explicitly.
 * Secondly, assuming that Nagato's Rinnegan are transplanted, how do you come to the assumption that someone who also had the dojutsu transplanted can use it to it's full potential?
 * You're assuming that a man who had just finished fighting an entire village and a junchuriki had enough stamina left to revive someone who had died a while back. At the same time how was he supposed to revive Madara who was dead for centuries? :*I really don't see how your conclusion is evident when you haven't even taken the Senju DNA power up into consideration.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 00:18, January 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * Dead for decades, not centuries. :P Skitts (talk) 00:23, January 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * more dramatic <.< >.>--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 00:24, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

@Skitts No, we've never seen Nagato "activate" the Rinnegan; he's always had it active. We've never seen his regular pupils and his hair is always covering his eyes when they aren't "active."

@Cerez *Well considering I know the definition of the word "give", yes, I do know what he means by that. Tobi himself may not have given the eyes to him, but Madara did. It's evident that Nagato was not born with the Rinnegan. We know this much as A. Madara knows of Nagato and is the only known person to awaken the Rinnegan as it is simply an advanced transformation of the Sharingan (possibly the EMS) and Nagato is an Uzumaki, not an Uchiha, so he wasn't born with a Sharingan either.
 * When did I ever specify at what point Tobi intended to resurrect Madara? He simply cursed Nagato for utilizing Rinne Tensei on Konoha, and this was after Pain died, long after Kurama's attack.
 * What does Hashirama's DNA have to do with anything? My point is that Tobi is utilizing the Rinnegan to a greater potential than Nagato. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 00:33, January 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * You still don't know if he was given anything in the sense that you're interpreting it.
 * Why is it evident that he wasn't born with it? Seeing him activate it in the way he did would speak to the contrary.
 * We've always known that the Sharingan was derived from the Rinnegan, going from that it might even be possible that the Byakugan could advance to the Rinnegan in the same manner. Saying that it's the advanced form of the Sharingan is incorrect however. It's the reverse that's more accurate.
 * Nagato is an Uzumaki, fair enough, what does that have to do with anything? Because he's not an Uchiha he cannot possess the Rinnegan? You seem to have the misconception that all Rinnegan are derived from the Sharingan.
 * I was referring to Madara and his "finally" speech. Tobi didn't seem in any haste to have an adult Nagato revive Madara. Saying he's unable to resurrect people dead for more than however long is an assumption you're making.
 * Hashirama and the DNA/inheritance of the Senju has a lot to do with everything. If you can't see the significance of that, then this is going nowhere.

There are too many circumstances surrounding Nagato's use of the Rinnegan for you to say that Tobi is using it better than Nagato because of one technique though you are entitled to your conception of events. I'm also not continuing this conversation since I've realised it's forum talk that has nothing to do with bettering an article.--Cerez365™ 00:51, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

Tobi as User
Can we list Tobi as the user of the jinchuriki own tailess abilities? Like Water Release: Bubbles Technique? 119.154.65.118 (talk) 08:04, January 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Not unless he himself used them or the abilities stemmed from him. He's only giving them commands.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 12:36, January 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * What about Sasori and 'his' Iron Sand? Sasori didn't use them himself, nor does the ability actually stem from him. He's only giving commands. 119.154.25.161 (talk) 14:15, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Sharingan Prowess
Can it not be stated that he uses it an advanced level? Clearly he has used it to a greater extent than just about anyone ever seen with a Sharingan, including Madara, as Madara has only been shown to control Kurama, whereas Tobi has controlled all of the beasts and manipulated a Kage-level shinobi.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 21:37, January 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * He's already mentioned as controlling a Kage, and his controlling of tailed beasts also employs the Outer Path. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:47, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

No, his Sharingan's control alone is what rendered Kurama completely powerless and under Tobi's command, and he simply used the chains to subdue the Five-tails and halt the attack; they had nothing to do with the will of the beast. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 22:03, January 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * ...Madara's been seeing bringing Kurama under his control with the Sharingan alone. Besides that this wikia doesn't do the whole "of anyone seen/any known etc etc etc" comparisons. The information is already represented in his article without the need to draw those comparisons.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 22:10, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

You act like it's a big deal to give him praise for his use of the Sharingan. I didn't say compare it to others, but he clearly can use it very effectively and a general statement is not going to kill anyone. Besides, not everyone may have detailed knowledge about the tailed beasts or Yagura, as this control has not been shown in the anime yet, so it would be nice to give people an idea that he's an effective Sharingan user. Not to mention it sounds a lot better than just immediately going in depth about his usage. I'd like the articles to sound structured rather than just a random assortment of information. That's all I'm saying...--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 22:20, January 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * I never said it was a big deal to praise him however unnecessary it is, since the information should speak for itself. However bias in writing is not accepted here. Saying that he's "used it to a greater extent than just about anyone ever seen with a Sharingan" is not only a possibly temporary statement but an unnecessary. As long as whatever you're writing has examples or sources to back it up it shouldn't be a problem. However be forewarned that it'll probably be removed or edited to leave out unnecessary information. A wiki by the way, is supposed to exist as a collation of information, anything else outside of that can be left up to the reader(s).--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 22:30, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

Once more, I never said anything about using comparisons with other characters; I was only trying to justify the reasoning for my statement. I wrote "Tobi has been using his right Sharingan at an advanced level" or something along those lines, and it was removed.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 22:53, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

It was probably removed because there are already examples of him adeptly using his Sharingan. People can draw their own conclusions and don't need us to input "[So and so] used [technique] on an advanced level" when there are already examples of them doing so. Also, Tobi doesn't control all of the Tailed Beasts with just his Sharingan. As Omni said, he uses the Outer Path's Chakra Chains and the Chakra Disruption Rods piercing the Jinchuriki. He also obtained Hashirama's strength as Madara did. Tobi said that the combination of those abilities in one person (Danzo, in that case) was intended for Tailed Beast control. I've rambled on long enough. xD Skitts (talk) 23:13, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

Above you said ""used it to a greater extent than just about anyone ever seen with a Sharingan"" as far as I know, that's a comparison.--Cerez365™ 23:16, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

@Skitts Thus far, there has been no mention of Hashirama's DNA being able to enhance ocular powers in that particular manner. True, he used Izanagi more effectively than Danzo with the Senju's power, but that's not necessarily the same circumstance as being able to manipulate a tailed beast. Furthermore, Tobi has yet to be seen using any Wood Release techniques, so it's questionable to say he can use the stolen DNA in whichever manner he chooses.

The chains are used to subdue and stop the physical movement, not the mental and willpower of the beasts, as seen with Kurama. As for the disruption rods, those just transmit chakra, which is why Tobi was still in control of Goku's power when the rod was removed.

@Cerez I just told you...that was a justification for my reasoning for putting that he could use it an advanced level, not the actual quote I wrote in the article. Either way, I don't even care anymore as this has become too great of a deal than it needs to be apparently.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 23:42, January 18, 2012 (UTC)

At the risk of inciting forum talk, I never said anything about Hashirama's DNA enhancing ocular powers per se. All I said was that he was able to control Tailed Beasts, and that possessing his DNA and several Sharingan, as Tobi said, meant that Danzo was after Naruto, and that Tobi had also obtained said DNA. And I don't believe it was ever actually said that Wood Release itself was what exactly allowed Hashirama to control multiple Tailed Beasts. Oh and the disruption rods immobilize targets, not just transmit chakra, and the Outer Path's Chakra Chains do so more forcefully. Skitts (talk) 00:13, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Can it be stated that Tobi uses his Sharingan at an advanced level? Yes. Does it need to be stated? Not really. It doesn't provide any "new" information. A general consensus would totally agree with this statement yet these opinions were formed on the information that's already on the page. Adding this statement would essentially be "stating the obvious". Gojinn (talk) 01:18, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

That's the general consensus. Skitts (talk) 01:20, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

I think stating that Tobi and Uchiha Madara are the 2 per se that achieved a feat of controlling a Tailed Beast and a host with hypnotism using Sharingan alone is sufficient. --Elveonora (talk) 13:43, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

Which episode?
"Eight years after Kurama's attack, Tobi infiltrated Konoha to try to rekindle the flames of war. He was found by Itachi Uchiha first, who convinced Tobi to spare the village in exchange for helping to wipe out the Uchiha clan for deserting him decades earlier. Tobi complied, training Itachi and providing assistance. However, Itachi never truly trusted Tobi and kept an eye on him for the rest of his life. Around this time Tobi also met with Danzō Shimura."

Could someone tell me which episode this happens in? I don't recall seeing this episode of Tobi training Itachi so I would like to see it. Thanks! Antonino200 (talk) 18:59, January 31, 2012 (UTC)


 * This is what will be looked at in the next episode. That information was obtained from the Manga, since it is much further ahead than the anime. --speysider (talk) 19:00, January 31, 2012 (UTC)

That explains. Thank you! Antonino200 (talk) 19:09, January 31, 2012 (UTC)

Actually I think you are looking for Shippūden episode 141. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 06:33, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

The Masked Man
It seems that he has been referred to as this a lot. Would it acceptable to use it as a nickname?--Deva 27 14:28, February 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * Seems more like a generic, descriptive name than a nickname, even if enough people have called him like that. That's just my opinion though. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:39, February 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought it would make a good nickname, even the opening note of chapter 564 referred to him as such.--Deva 27 17:50, February 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * Has the point been made before that in the other system of Japenese counting, To from Tobi means ten, so Tobi means Ten-tail? -Ghannawi13 (talk) 21:36, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

Neil Kaplan - Tobi (Madara) VA in Naruto: Chippuden Series
On Naruto Shippuden Episode 125 on the dub which was released on itunes a while ago you can clearly hear that Neil Kaplan voices Tobi (Madara). Not Nolan North, not Vic Mignogna but Neil Kaplan. I've also contacted Neil Kaplan and he confirmed that he voiced Madara. He will also voice Tobi (Madara) in the game Naruto Shippuden: Ultimate Ninja Storm Generations.

Link: http://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10150522213678542&id=92511143541 --A-Stone (talk) 21:24, February 5, 2012 (UTC)A-Stone

Not to discredit your source but that could easily be an impersonator. In any case I have a second source that seconds the info that A-Stone provided.--Cerez365™ 21:59, February 5, 2012 (UTC)

Sweat
Wasn't it a sweat after all ? --Elveonora (talk) 22:21, February 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Not too sure. Though I'd be more on the side of it being a raindrop. I've never known person to be able to sweat like that from their hand.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 23:37, February 8, 2012 (UTC)

It's obvious he was really nervous thought even while pretending being tough. His arm was shaking a lot, wasn't it ? --Elveonora (talk) 01:52, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

It could have just been coincidence that it was raining. He probably was sweating, and used the fact it was raining to convince himself he wasn't scared. --Seireitou-shishō (My True Identity 02:04, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

That's what I meant. --Elveonora (talk) 20:25, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

chakra chain vs normal chain
in the last episode tobi use normal chain vs minato i'm not sure if is a difference from anime and manga or before obtaining the rinnengan he can use only normal chain? --Nitram86 (talk) 11:57, February 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * They're just regular chains. Nothing more or less. They're not linked to the Outer Path chains or the Rinnegan in any way.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 12:12, February 9, 2012 (UTC)

Melting?!
Ok so after Minato defeated Tobi it seems like he "melted" and he never uses an Actual ninjutsu, so is he a robot like ninja or a pure demon?
 * That was just the Zetsu like limb coming off. And he does use ninjutsu after, he teleports away. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:50, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

Are you even reading Naruto ? --Elveonora (talk) 05:04, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

The Lie
The statement "He claimed himself to be the legendary shinobi Madara Uchiha, a lie powerful enough to drag the Shinobi World into war with him for his plans of global domination" does not seem to be entirely accurate as him claiming to be the leader of the Uchiha clan was not the only variable in convincing the five nations to form an alliance. He also explicitly stated he had no power himself, but threatened them with the power of the seven tailed beasts they had thus far collected, not to mention possessed the role of being the true leader of Akatsuki, the notorious criminal organization that the countries had strove to eliminate long before he revealed his identity.

If I recall correctly, Onoki himself later stated that it didn't matter who the masked man was, but that he needed to be stopped regardless. I understand that Tsunade seems to believe that it was that sole claim that caused them to unite, but had he not possessed the power of the seven Biju nor been the leader of such a dangerous organization, would they have taken his words to heart and resorted to such drastic measures?

Nonetheless, Onoki seems to think otherwise, as well as a lot of the conversation between the nations prior to forming an alliance greatly took the immense power of the beasts into consideration, so this statement has some crucial missing factors.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 07:46, March 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Fixed. A not so regular editor added that after claiming Tobi was "serious business now" I thought someone had fixed it ages ago.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 12:12, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

English Voice Actor
I'd also like to ask who the current English voice actor is for his Madara persona. I've seen him credited as Nolan North in the Generations demo, but he sounds considerably different as the character sounded in Storm 2. I also noticed that Neil Kaplan has been given credit as playing the antagonist, but again, the demo credits North. Did North just modify his voice that much to fit the role?--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 20:27, March 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * Tobi (using his Madara persona) hasn't been shown yet, but it will probably appear soon. The dub is currently at Episode 126 so it won't be long. --speysider (talk) 20:33, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

"Madara" makes his debut in episode 125. The voice actor has already played him; look up 125 dub. That same voice in said episode appears in the Generations demo and credits Nolan North, but he sounds a lot deeper than in Storm 2, who North played as well.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 20:37, March 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not too sure about game stuff but my source says Neil Kaplan voices Madara...--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 20:38, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eJ-LB6oOyE 3:03 it credits North. Then at 10:20, you hear Madara's voice. Is that not the same voice actor as in episode 125? http://www.narutoget.com/watch/894-naruto-shippuden-episode-125-english-dubbed/--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 20:47, March 4, 2012 (UTC)

Why did you change it? All evidence points to Nolan North, whereas you supposedly have a "source" that confirms Neil Kaplan. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 02:05, March 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * The "supposed" source". As for who's credited as a character's voice actor, I really couldn't care less.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 10:28, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

So, you're taking an "anime news network" website's word over Namco Bandai Games America, where it's blatant that the voice actor in the game is the same as Shippuden episode 125. So logical.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 15:09, March 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah... Pretty much, I've never had an issue with this "anime news network" before. What's illogical however, was your assumption that I had checked any of the links you posted as sources.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 15:12, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

Well, you know what they say. Ignorance is bliss.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 18:55, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

I stand corrected. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2203171/fullcredits#cast

North should still be credited obviously, but Kaplan is currently voicing Madara in both the anime and video games. Evidently Namco Bandai Games America made an error in the demo's credits.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 22:50, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

Tobi "repairing himself"
In the article it's stated that he repairs himself through unknown means, but that's not correct. As he is himself enhanced with Hashirama's cells, he repairs himself with the same mass from Hashirama's Living Clone that the Zetsu Clone Army is made of. Tobi repairing himself Hashirama's Living Clone connected to the flower Tobi repairs himself with --Elveonora (talk) 21:20, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

I agree, this should be changed --108.27.102.100 (talk) 23:40, March 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * It's with a mass that resembles some Zetsu stuff. It's not necessarily the mass from Hashirama's living clone since if you look at them one is more clearly formed/defined than the other. Writing what we think it is would lead to nothing but speculation. A reference should be enough which will lead people to the same image and have them draw their own conclusions.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 23:45, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

Its been clearly stated in the manga he has hashiramas cells inside him, which zetsu is made of and in said image he has the same venus flytrap teeth around him, it isnt speculation at all.--One small edit at a time... (talk) 23:51, March 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Ok so he has Hashirama's cells- that's a given. Is that supposed to mean that's how he means he has them? Suppose he has a face growing out of him somewhere like everyone else? Or suppose that pile of Zetsu stuff has nothing to do with Hashirama's living clone? The room Tobi was in seemed secluded and dark as opposed to where the statue is which is mostly flooded with light and water. It's still speculation as to what the mass is exactly except that it's probably connected to Zetsu somehow.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 23:57, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, so I worded it wrong ... we know how he repairs himself but not sure with exactly what. I think the image of him repairing should be added as stated above, for everyone to make his/her own conclusion on it. --Elveonora (talk) 01:56, March 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Image was added and the word "unknown" changed to "unorthodox"--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 01:58, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Love you man. You are truly the most active member '_' --Elveonora (talk) 02:01, March 11, 2012 (UTC)

Alternate Name
It seems that this antagonist is widely regarded as the "Masked Man." In the latest chapter, he is referred to as such on the title page, as well as in video games and by various characters in the series. Should this be listed as one of his alternate names? It seems to be more used than "Tobi" at this point in the story at least. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 00:49, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

I agree, he is being called often that ... should be his nickname --Elveonora (talk) 00:52, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

I edited it so that his alternate name is as such, but I'm uncertain how to make it so that "Masked Man" redirects to this page. If anyone is against this idea, please discuss as I think it's a suitable alternate name and very few characters still refer to him as his old alias. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 01:08, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

Or just change it without discussing it at all...fantastic. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 01:11, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

I asked the same question in an earlier section. Given that many sources refer to him as such, I think it should be listed.--Deva 27 02:08, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

That moniker is in the infobox already. I don't think it's necessary to move the article. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:46, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

I entirely agree. His name is being referred more and more as "The Masked Man". I think Tobi was just his nickname for the akatsuki. I believe that It should be changed to Masked Man. 81.178.197.234 (talk) 18:22, April 8, 2012 (UTC) Wiki Contributor


 * I'll add a redirect for Masked Man to the Tobi page if that's ok with the other editors. He's only called "Masked Man" by the people who don't know his name: those who do know his name call him Tobi. Examples include Kabuto and Zetsu. --Speysider (Talk Page) 18:28, April 8, 2012 (UTC)

Better image?
Can't we have a better image of the mask he wore against Minato? Also, an image showing his full body (and sword) when meeting Itachi? Patsoumas1995 (talk) 14:23, March 26, 2012 (UTC)

I believe the picture of him threatening Naruto is sufficient enough. As for the full body/sword picture, I don't think it's' needed since there's already the portrait with his long hair. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 23:33, March 26, 2012 (UTC)

Uchiha
Why is not he listed as one ? --Elveonora (talk) 13:48, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

he is not a confirmed uchiha right ?? Salil2212™ 13:59, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

ya^^, it has not been confirmed yet. akz!  14:04, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

Well, his knowledge of both Madara and Izuna's younger days and Konoha, mastery over the Sharingan (activated at all times, control of Yagura and Kurama) and usage of Izanagi that requires both powers of Senju and Uchiha. --Elveonora (talk) 14:15, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

but as of now, it is just a speculation Salil2212™ 14:20, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

He even said it himself and was about to show Sasuke his face, I think there's more evidence than doubt of him being an Uchiha --Elveonora (talk) 14:25, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

EDIT: Danzo had each of his Shaingan enhanced by Orochimaru to extend the time to 1 minute. Tobi's Izanagi lasted for 10 minutes. --Elveonora (talk) 15:08, April 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * But at the same time, he said he was Madara Uchiha no? So if we're going with them being entirely different persons, then it'd make sense that he's not listed as an Uchiha.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 15:25, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

I know they are not the same. But his feats and knowledge are like that of an Uchiha. He even knows about the Uchiha tablet that's hidden in the secret meeting place. --Elveonora (talk) 15:32, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

He could just be well informed. And please stop adding a new line for every sentence you write, it makes the page look completely butchered when in edit mode. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:47, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry about that. --Elveonora (talk) 16:50, April 7, 2012 (UTC)

Here is proof why Tobi is an uchiha: 1.) He can keep his sharingan activated at all times (Kakashi who isn't an uchiha has to cover his). 2.) He has knowledge of all Mangekyo sharingan techs, 3.) He has a history with Madara Uchiha and Hashirama Senju (this means he probably hails from that time), and 4.) His goal is for the Uchiha to be awknowledged (Kakashi mentions this in the manga when he apprehends tobi). Reason 1 is the prime proof for this fact. 173.66.90.66 (talk) 21:09, June 12, 2012 (UTC) Falcona

Even though he is more than likely from Uchiha, we can't name his such unless manga calls him "Tobi Uchiha" or "insert his true name" Uchiha--Elveonora (talk) 21:24, June 12, 2012 (UTC)

Who or even what Tobi is is predominantly up in the air. He could be an Inuzuka for all we know and Zetsu his ninken.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 01:56, June 13, 2012 (UTC)

It is never confirmed that to use Izanagi one has to have both senju and uchiha blood. The use of Senju blood just enhances the tech (much like how Tobi's izanagi lasted 10 minutes) --Elven Windsword (talk) 05:24, June 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * It was never stated that Tobi's Izanagi lasted 10 minutes. He could have used it for only a few seconds, but then reappeared outside of the explosions and waited until Konan ran out of chakra.--BeyondRed (talk) 07:04, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

As of latest chapter, do we have enough evidence ?--Elveonora (talk) 12:15, June 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * Nope. That was when he was in his "Madara phase".--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:24, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

But he didn't tell Itach "I'm Madara Uchiha" ... Itachi realized as such due to his knowledge of the Uchiha place and shrine.--Elveonora (talk) 12:28, June 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * And we've already established that Tobi is very knowledgeable about the Uchiha. Hell, he's knowledgeable about a lot of things.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:32, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

I did think it was interesting the way the translator phrased what Tobi said to Itachi and hope that I can get a direct translation, but I don't think anything ha changed Tobi still may or may not be an "Uchiha".--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 12:38, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think Kishi places such "reassurements" randomly ... We have already seen Itachi talking to Tobi ... this chapter added the part about "he must be an Uchiha" dialogue--Elveonora (talk) 13:47, June 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Neither do I, but that doesn't always mean that they can be interpreted correctly. As Ulti said, Tobi was under the guise of being Madara there and he has claimed to be an Uchiha before that occasion. That being said, nothing has really changed. We've just been made privy to part of the conversation they had there. I think what was more interesting there was that Itachi called him Tobi.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:03, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

It's not weird ... Itachi was aware all along that Tobi isn't Madara ... but according to him he is an Uchiha--Elveonora (talk) 14:10, June 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * When was was stated? I was under the belief that Itachi thinks that Tobi is Madara, wasn't aware that he was aware otherwise.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:13, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

The fact that he called him Tobi is enough proof ... "Tobi" doesn't appear to be a nickname he uses older than since he has "joined" Akatsuki. Also Itachi said there's no reason to lie anymore ... if he was Madara then Itachi would have said Madara.--Elveonora (talk) 14:23, June 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * That's not proof though. Tobi was known by both names to Itachi, Konan, Nagato and Zetsu out of all the Akatsuki members so Itachi could have simply been using the names interchangeably or out of habit. During his last conversation with Sasuke at Uchiha Hideout, he spoke about Tobi as if he were Madara- alive and well. He did in fact say there was no need to lie any more but it's not lying if you yourself don't know the truth. What reason would he have had for lying about that any way? He's certainly no ally to them in that sense.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:35, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

Because Tobi took on the identity of Madara. It's quite obvious to me that Itachi was aware who that person really is ... the "3rd survivor of Uchiha story" might not be that false, just replace Madara with Tobi and there you go. Why did Itachi lie about Tobi being Madara ? Any less would not have been believable for such feats than this legendary ninja. Also take into consideration that Itachi has replayed the memories of Uchiha Clan history to Sasuke, another proof that Tobi is an Uchiha from the era of Konoha founding or even before. EDIT: Nagato and Konan appeared not to know him being Madara is false--Elveonora (talk) 15:05, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

After he said "the third person etc..." he went on to say "my mentor etc etc etc... Uchiha Madara." Itachi seemed just as in the dark as everyone else as to who Tobi is. I also never said Konan and Nagato knew the truth- They were just as clueless as everyone else. Well excluding Zetsu apparently.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 15:31, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

His name doesn't matter ... if he called him Bob, the results wouldn't differ. The topic is if you agree him being an Uchiha as of latest chapter or not, because I doubt the panel was written for nothing ... the manga is coming to an end soon, there would be no reason for Kishi to reassure us with that dialogue that HE IS an Uchiha ... if he has told Itachi: "Hello, I'm Uchiha Madara" then okay, but Itachi figured him an Uchiha by himself. Itachi isn't stupid, quite the opposite. One of the most intelligent characters in the manga, he didn't appear to question him being Madara, because there were no doubts of him not being Madara. His knowledge of the secret shrine and history of the Uchiha, going as far as to state things about Madara and Izuna, someone not close to the clan couldn't know is enough proof to me. Unless you go with the speculations that he had Nagato read the tablet for him and the real Madara wrote there his complete biography ... that would still not explain the replayed memory.--Elveonora (talk) 15:41, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

Then based on my own opinion and as I've said before, no I wouldn't list Bob as an Uchiha because of what was said in chapter 590 because technically, nothing has changed. This isn't or shouldn't be treated as "new information".--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 15:45, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

Okay ... Bob won't be happy about this, he wanted to be recognized as an Uchiha soooo much :( --Elveonora (talk) 16:18, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

An edit should be made...
Shouldn't it say "He sided with Kabuto Yakushi during the fourth shinobi world war"? under his main details? It says that on Kabuto's profile. Why does it not say it on tobi's profile? 81.178.197.234 (talk) 17:05, April 8, 2012 (UTC) Wiki Contributor
 * Because Kabuto allying himself with Tobi is much more monumental that Tobi agreeing to let Kabuto help Akatsuki.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 17:12, April 8, 2012 (UTC)

But Tobi didn't agree to let Kabuto help. He was forced into it, that isn't the same thing. And Kabuto is more like the main controller to the enemy army. As almost the whole army is made and controlled by Kabuto (Edo Tensei). Therefore I think it is reasonable to say that Tobi sided with Kabuto during the fourth shinobi world war and thus, his article should be edited to say that under his main introduction profile. 81.178.197.234 (talk) 17:38, April 8, 2012 (UTC) Wiki Contributor
 * Tobi was not forced, he could have said no. Kabuto is also not the one that instigated the war. Notice that he went to Tobi and told him he could help for a price, Tobi thought he was fine without him and was all set to go off to war with the 100,000 White Zetsu Army which outnumbers the # of people Kabuto has resurrected. As such I don't see why that has to be mentioned in Tobi's introduction.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 17:44, April 8, 2012 (UTC)

Tobi had no choice, he couldn't have said no since all the odds where against him. The Zutsu army wouldn't have obviously been good enough for the good shinobi and the war would have been over in no time. Kabuto's resurrections are the true pieces to the army, while the 100,000 zetsus are just pawns, I think you will agree with me on that. And I don't see why it should be mentioned on Kabuto's profile but not Tobi's, It makes no sense whatsoever. Either you also mention it on Tobi's profile or you remove it from Kabuto's profile. I propose that you do say that Tobi sided with Kabuto during the war. 81.178.197.234 (talk) 17:50, April 8, 2012 (UTC) Wiki Contributor
 * Like I said, he had a choice. He wisely chose, however, to take Kabuto's help in order to better his chances in the war. Tobi's goal isn't to win the war, but to get the Eight and Nine Tails.
 * It's mentioned on Kabuto's article because that is the purpose he has served since reappearing in the series. While Tobi's has always remained constant- the Eye of the Moon Plan. That's why Kabuto's participation in the war is in his introduction and not mentioned in Tobi's it's simply irrelevant to him as a character.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 18:00, April 8, 2012 (UTC)

But it's not irrelevant. Is Tobi fighting the war all by himself? No, he is the partner of Kabuto. 81.178.197.234 (talk) 18:18, April 8, 2012 (UTC) Wiki Contributor
 * It is. It's an unnecessary addition to his introduction. It's the same reason why ¾ of the other people don't have the purpose(s) they serve in the war as part of their intro. You're going on as if the partnership isn't mentioned anywhere in his article.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 18:55, April 8, 2012 (UTC)

What's the Justu called
What is that Jutsu that Tobi uses where he dematerializes one part of his body so that he won't be affected by physical attacks, I can't find a link to it on his page //Filipinoboy97


 * Space-Time Migration --Speysider (Talk Page) 16:25, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

Lol yea I just found it before I came back here, thanks though //Filipinoboy97

Another name change?
I think since Tobi was just an alias, like Madara, I'm wondering if it's a good idea to change the name to "Masked Man" until his official name is revealed? [if he even has one]. Recent chapters seem to be using this title a lot more, and other characters have been calling him as such. It's just as the masked man said. He's nobody, and he doesn't have any desire to be anybody. Names are irrelevant to him, so it makes me question why we still call him Tobi. It's just a proposition, obviously there will be people opposed and I don't see this idea getting much favor, but I thought I'd bring it up regardless. Cheers! --M4ND0N (talk) 21:33, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't really care, but since he was first known as Tobi, that's the name he should probably go by for now. Skitts (talk) 21:42, April 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * If I remember correctly, he referred to Tobi as his "old name" though he said he doesn't care regardless. Either way, keeping him as "Tobi" works because it's an actual name he goes by.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 21:54, April 22, 2012 (UTC)

"Masked Man" already redirects to Tobi --Elveonora (talk) 01:14, April 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * I kinda agree with naming the article Masked Man. He should still be referenced to Tobi in the article, but he has no name and is just another alias. Until his real name is revealed, the article should be named Masked Man. just my opinion. --Speysider (Talk Page) 16:31, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

"Masked Man" is an alias of the person. Even though "Tobi" is not his actual name thus fake, it's a name he has used. That would be like calling Orochimaru if his name was not known "White Snake guy with long tongue" and such. Tobi is his fake but actual name he was referred as such and Masked Man is already a redirect ... so I'm against renaming it--Elveonora (talk) 17:43, April 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * There's no proof that Tobi is a fact name. He referred to it as his "old name" and Zetsu has always called him such. Either way, Tobi is an actual name, while masked man isn't even a alias, it's a description.--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 19:18, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

That's what I meant Ultimate. That it's fact name because people call him that like Zetsu for example ... I know it's not his birth name but still it's a name we know of that referred to him as such. Calling him 'masked man" is misleading as this guy and this guy are as well --Elveonora (talk) 19:26, April 23, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah but you guys are forgetting many of the other unnamed characters we have on this wiki. Like.. for example, the two sons of the Sage of 6 Paths, or hell, even the Sage of 6 Paths himself don't have any names in their articles because they don't have one. I still think Masked Man is a more fitting name for the possible main villain of Naruto; at least until his real name is revealed. "Tobi is one of the main antagonists of the series." Just sounds hilarious. Hypothetically think of it like this. "The Masked Man is one of the main antagonists of the series." He's an enigma, basically. we've known it ever since our favorite Aizen-clone crawled out of that coffin and started fucking shit up. Nobody knows his name, face, or anything. Masked Man is more than perfect for a temporary article name, because it projects exactly what he is.. no one. --M4ND0N (talk) 05:37, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

I know what you mean ... when one say Tobi, a goofy guy with "Deidara Senpai!" comes to mind "_" but again, Tobi is a name even if fake, Masked Man can be Kakashi or an ANBU member as well, lol ... maybe "Mysterious Masked Man" or "No One" would be appropriate--Elveonora (talk) 13:59, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

It'd be better just to keep it as Tobi if those are our only options. I mean it might be a little too pointless to change the article name if Kishi decides to unmask Tobi soon. We all know it's coming once the Kabuto fight is over, so I guess patience is all we need. --M4ND0N (talk) 14:14, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

Edit Conflict I think this just a case of word association. Because of Tobi's initial portrayed personality, you're associating the name with that. Others (like me) on the other hand, have no problem with reading: "Tobi is the main antagonists" it'd sound more ridiculous to have: "masked man (or worse) no one is the main antagonist...". I don't know if it'll just take time for you to merge the two in your mind, but I don't see any sense in moving him to a "generic name" or "moniker" The other persons in the story call him "masked man" because they simply don't know any better. After the revelation that Madara was reincarnated they took him as an imposter. I'd assume if the name "Tobi" was known to them, then they'd be calling him such. Worse case scenario his name turns out to be Madara in which case I foresee this article being dubbed "Tobi" forever. It's kinda like going and calling Kabuto "orphan boy who has nothing" because Kabuto isn't his real name technically or Yamato "Hashirama's clone/wood release user" because Yamato/Tenzō isn't his real name either or even writing B's name is quotations or removing it since Killer B doesn't seem to be his birth name.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 14:15, May 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * * sigh* Another name change huh? Look at Nonō and Yamato their real name's not revealed as well. I don't agree with this. It's ridiculous to rename this to "Masked Man". I agree with Cerez 100% xD —IndxcvNovelist (Talk to Me|My Wiki) 14:21, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

I'm only suggesting it because that's what Kishi's officially calling him now, thus making it his canon name for the time being. Just read the first page of chapter 578 if you don't believe me. --M4ND0N (talk) 14:26, May 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * ^_^ If I didn't believe you I should have tell you "Kishi never called him Masked Man" I am an avid reader of Naruto and I don't miss any single chapter. I think it's enough that Masked Man is in his infobox! :D —IndxcvNovelist (Talk to Me|My Wiki) 14:33, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough, I didn't see that before. Well, it's clear most of you want the article name to remain Tobi, so there's little point in discussing this any more. --M4ND0N (talk) 14:36, May 6, 2012 (UTC)

Picture
Seeing as the anime has caught up. Shouldn't Tobi's picture be updated to his current mask? --Jingo12 (talk) 08:39, May 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * An image of the person as they appear in Part I goes in the infoboxes. Tobi had a swirl-pattern mask which didn't change until Part II hence the change isn't noted in the infobox. That's just how things work here.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 11:21, May 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * While he was introduced with the swirl-patterned mask, it was already in Part II Cerez. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:27, May 18, 2012 (UTC)

Plans for Sasuke
Tobi says he plans on syncing Sasuke with the Demonic Statue. Does he plan on evolving Sasuke's EMS into the Rinnegan?
 * We don't know. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 06:37, May 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't remember that. —IndxcvNovelist (Talk to Me|My Wiki) 07:11, May 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * Right after Sasuke heads to the five kage meeting, chapter 453 page 17. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 07:37, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

We know that he want to use Sasuke as a tool to destroy Konoha and the line about syncing ... that's all--Elveonora (talk) 15:34, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

Tobi's Fire Release
In the game: Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm 2 Tobi is able to use fire style: Fire Ball Jutsu in his awakened mode. Shouldn't fire release be included in his chakra nature as an "anime" nature (much like how Madara uses wind style in the anime)?

--Elven Windsword (talk) 05:18, June 17, 2012 (UTC)--

Tobi's Fire Release happened in a purely game moment. Madara's Wind Release was in the part that is considered anime. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:25, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

Games aren't anime content.--Elveonora (talk) 02:26, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

I agree games are not cannon, but I guess that Madara scene was an exception since the producers worked with Naruto staff to produce the content.

--Elven Windsword (talk) 05:20, June 17, 2012 (UTC)

That's what we said ... :P--Elveonora (talk) 00:03, June 18, 2012 (UTC)

Uchiha Origin
With chapter 590, can we not put that Tobi is indeed an Uchiha? I don't see why Kishimoto would continue to bring up evidence that he is a member of the clan if it has already been "disproven" or whatever. Itachi states the only people that know of the shrine are his kinsmen, and then Tobi confirms that he is, in fact, one. If we're going to list that he has a grudge against the village, we may as well take his word as him being a member of the Uchiha clan as well. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 20:35, June 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Kishimoto showed us only 1 completely new thing in this flashback, and that was Itachi's last talk with his father. Everything else has been discussed before by a slew of other characters, including Itachi himself. We know when Itachi met Tobi, it was when he was posing as Madara Uchiha, nothing here contradicts that. As of now, we still do not know who or what Tobi is or what he belongs to.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 22:36, June 20, 2012 (UTC)

The point I and others are trying to make is that Kishi would not show something we already know about if it wasn't true. The thing he was posing as Madara has no weight in this context as Itachi figured it by himself that the person must be an Uchiha without Tobi introducing as Madara when they met.--Elveonora (talk) 00:25, June 21, 2012 (UTC)

That is true based on the evidence presented in this chapter, even if we don't know Tobi's individual identity, we should label him an Uchiha. --Elven Windsword (talk) 02:07, June 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * Thats a speculation — ¤ U LTIMATE S UPREME ¤ (T@lk) 03:25, June 21, 2012 (UTC)

What Elveonora said. It's not necessarily Tobi's word this time, but Itachi's. He had deduced that Tobi was an Uchiha based off facts and knowledge exclusive to his clan, and Tobi simply gave reassurance. I don't see any harm in putting that he is a member of the Uchiha clan for the time being. Considering his knowledge about the clan, his prowess with the Sharingan and information about its derived techniques, and that he wants to use Sasuke to acknowledge that same clan, it's highly unlikely that he is bluffing about being just a member as well. We don't have to take his word that's he the legendary leader, but possessing blood of the Uchiha doesn't seem to be a lie. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 15:31, June 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't understand something.


 * We already knew Tobi claimed to be Madara to Itachi yes?
 * We've seen them meeting before yes? But was not privy to the conversation.
 * Why is it that now, Kishimoto simply makes us privy to part of their conversation do people think it's any different? He's simply doing it for continuity. Not because Tobi and Madara are two separate persons means that what he said in the past is going to change. Itachi thought Tobi was Madara and Tobi simply said "then you know I'm an Uchiha etc etc etc" There's no new information there and Kishimoto was certainly not tearing down the fourth wall to get this information to us. Stuff like what clan he's from can be added when Tobi's entire background is revealed, I don't think people will die over something so minuscule as a symbol in an infobox. It would only lead to speculation and weak arguments for it. I mean how would you explain that?

"Tobi is a member of the Uchiha clan because even though we realise he wasn't Madara Uchiha who was reincarnated during SWWIV, in a conversation he had with Itachi more than a decade prior to SWWIV, he stated he was an Uchiha. This must be true since Kishimoto seemingly went out of his way to point this out during a flashback when Tobi was still pretending to be Madara" .--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 15:45, June 21, 2012 (UTC)

@Cerez, you are again missing the point ... that's called ignorance. --Elveonora (talk) 16:33, June 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * No, we have never seen Tobi claiming Itachi to be Madara, only him lying Sasuke such later
 * 1) Yes, we did
 * 2) Tobi can't read minds, can he ? Itachi didn't think Tobi is Madara, just an Uchiha ... neither Tobi has introduced as Madara at the time they have met
 * 3) More like: "Tobi's word can't be trusted, but Itachi himself has made an observation that the person must be an Uchiha and he just confirmed it
 * 4) There were ALREADY more things before that support the person being an Uchiha


 * 1) Elveonora. Tobi lied to everyone and told them that he was Madara. Why would Itachi (who Tobi called an "eyesore") be any different? If you'll turn with me in your manga to chapter 385 pages 2-6 and 17 you'll see Itachi speaking about Madara i.e. "Tobi" with familiarity. Now through simple deductions, Madara (who was Edo Tensei'd was beyond the point of being dead by that time due to what he later said chapter 559, page 2) yeah? It might not have been said where we can see it, but that was the misconception Itachi was under.
 * 2) O.K.
 * 3) Refer to the references I just cited in point #1.
 * 4) Again, Itachi was under the guise that Tobi is Madara. Even if at first he believed him only to be "an Uchiha".
 * 5) Things like what? Him having a Sharingan? Memory of events that only Madara should have? Tobi is shrouded in mystery there is no need for us to perpetuate anything before its time. Tobi said that simply as a method of continuity in the story. Would you believe that what Nagato and the other Akatsuki members believe to be the real "Eye of the Moon Plan" to be true if they kept on bringing it up? One line in a flashback cannot be enough to claim that because he keeps bringing it up means it must be true.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 16:47, June 21, 2012 (UTC)

We don't even know that, maybe Tobi told Itachi his true identity
 * 1) Tobi "lied" to everyone, but I don't think Itachi got fooled. As you can see with Minato, Tobi DOESN'T EVEN HAVE TO INTRODUCE HIMSELF AS MADARA, because people assume such "power, knowledge and feats" can do no other than Madara. Completely ignore the Madara's name in case of Tobi ... even if he introduced himself as Bob, people would have assumed him being Madara by themselves later.
 * 2) Tobi has told Itachi to be Madara AFTER Itachi made an "assumption/observation" that he must be an Uchiha ... not introduced himself as such.
 * 1) You don't know that ... and again this isn't about being Madara, but an Uchiha ... he went as far as to show his face to Kisame and was about to to do before Sasuke and likely Itachi has seen it as well. So to rephrase what you said: "Again, Itachi was under the guise that Tobi is an Uchiha" and it wasn't a guise but a logical assumption through observation
 * 2) That's enough reason to list him as such, hating both Uchiha and Konoha is another evidence.
 * 3) The point is that each panel by Kishi is drawn on purpose, he could have shown this "new dialogue" about Tobi being an Uchiha before Madara got revived, and people would have believed it double or triple as much ... no reason to bring that now we know Tobi isn't Madara, Kishi is basically throwing evidence that the man REALLY IS an Uchiha and even without such evidence it's very unlikely for him to be an Inuzuka as you said before--Elveonora (talk) 17:21, June 21, 2012 (UTC)

Is everyone disregarding the fact that Tobi can use Izanagi? The requirements are that one must possess both Uchiha and Senju DNA. It's speculation to claim that he stole the Uchiha portion. I mean for god's sake, he's currently wearing the Uchiha crest on his back. --71.170.129.210 (talk) 02:03, June 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * The Sharingan is Uchiha DNA enough and wearing a clan's symbol on your back doesn't mean much of anything. He's already said he was an Uchiha and Who is going to stop him from wearing it? There's always the possibility that Tobi is in fact an Uchiha but for someone whose background is shrouded in mystery, listing him as an Uchiha as things are now is just as speculative and will only lead to unnecessary questions and speculation.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 02:16, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

You're still assuming that he stole that particular Sharingan then; the one that grants him his Space-time Migration. Sure, we know he acquired the many Sharingans that he possesses in his laboratory from others, but the one in his right eye could very well be his own. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 02:57, June 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not assuming anything. I've never been one to make assumptions about anything in this series. Regardless, that's not how the wiki works. We chronicle what is known, not what is assumed to be likely.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 13:01, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

I sense a lot of contradiction and hypocrisy around ... "we" list only what is know ... what about Tsunade's "presumed" Lighting Release ? Can't we just list Tobi as a "presumed Uchiha" ?--Elveonora (talk) 14:21, June 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Tsunade's presumed lightning release is there because of the way Kishimoto wrote the databook entry for the Body Pathway Derangement technique.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:36, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not comprehending your way of thinking, Cerez...if he possesses a Sharingan and you're not assuming he stole it, then how is he not an Uchiha again? Seriously, what harm is there in putting that he is a member of the clan for the time being? There's too much evidence that suggests that he is part of the bloodline than not. Just because he "lied" about being the leader of the clan doesn't mean he lies about every other damn thing he says. We're already taking his word that he wanted revenge on the clan, but we're disregarding the purpose behind it? You can't just choose to regard certain portions of information and ignore others, especially what strove him to have feelings of resentment in the first place; the reason. Itachi certainly implied that he could only be an Uchiha as they are the only ones that knew of the Shrine. No one had mentioned Madara prior to that scene in chapter 590, which is why Tobi merely confirmed he was an Uchiha. For all we know, Tobi never once used the name "Madara" around Itachi and Itachi had concluded he was the famous shinobi all on his own. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 17:03, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

Adventures of Sea & Tsuchigumo Kinjutsu Arc
Well Tobi appeared in the anime sealing the Six-Tails with the other four members of the Akatsuki and appearing in Rock Lee's Dream. User:Gamma Venom 567
 * A dream? You think a dream sequence requires mentioning? In this case that information can be represented in the arc articles.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:02, June 23, 2012 (UTC)

So what? Well He made a small appearance kidnapping Guy and luring to fight lee in his dream. User:Gamma Venom 567

Sasuke Retrieval Arc
I know he dosen't appear until in part II after he replaced Sasori's position but I think he was among the Akatsuki gathering behind the scenes. User: Gamma Venom 567

Databook data
Can someone post a link for a complete translation of what a Databook/s says about Tobi and Madara Uchiha ? Thanks--Elveonora (talk) 13:49, June 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * Check ShounenSuki's databook's translation. akz! ANBU Symbol.svg 14:39, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks ^_--Elveonora (talk) 16:00, June 24, 2012 (UTC)

The new move
I believe that Tobi wasn't referring to the statue, but to the Ten-Tails. X29, 16:48, 4th of July (Most date I hate), 2012.
 * Why?  http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s145/urbancowgurl777/UltimateSupreme2212-3.png  (T@lk) 13:56, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

Seriously, just listen to this:

Tobi: In truth, I wanted to revive it in its full form... But even if it's just a piece, it still maintains it power. It's already late. Here comes the promised time.

Now, does it sound like something to be said about the Sealing Statue? Or does it sound better if it's about the Ten-Tails? X29, 16:59, 4th of July (Most date I hate), 2012.

I think this chapter implies that Gedo Statue = Ten-Tails--Elveonora (talk) 14:03, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

............ You serious? That's impossible. X29, 17:02, 4th of July (Most date I hate), 2012.
 * It can be.  http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s145/urbancowgurl777/UltimateSupreme2212-3.png  (T@lk) 14:20, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

Certainly......... not. How can the statue be the Ten-Tails? Its physical body's within the moon, and its Chakra's separated between the Tailed Beasts. Most of it is in the statue, yes, but how can the thing that stores its Chakra be it? X29, 17:24, 4th of July (Most date I hate), 2012.

We will see the next week, a Rinnegan user (like Nagato) can possibly summon the body of the Ten-Tails ... since the chakra of Ten-Tails was separated and got turned into 9 beings, by sealing the chakras into the statue, combining it and "reviving" it becomes the beast again I guess. The whole point of Tobi's plan is to revive Ten-Tails, become it's host and cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi ... this appears to gonna happpen now--Elveonora (talk) 14:59, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

A Rinnegan user summons the Ten-Tails? Just 'cause the Sage sealed it away doesn't mean he can summon it. And Tobi's plan's to become its Jinchūriki. X29, 18:04, 4th of July (Most date I hate), 2012.

Well, tell that to Nagato ... also a host = a jinchūriki--Elveonora (talk) 15:20, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

.......... Are you bloody serious? Do you even know who's Nagato? X29, 18:22, 4th of July (Most date I hate), 2012.

What kind of stupid question is that ? O_O I meant that both Nagato and Tobi (Rinnegan users) are capable of summoning the Statue so there may be a connection with Ten-Tails--Elveonora (talk) 15:35, July 4, 2012 (UTC)

If the statue is the Ten-Tails, then I guess you're right. We'll just wait a full week to see. Sighs What a drag. It's too troublesome. X29, 18:34, 4th of July (Most date I hate), 2012.

Tobi and the Uchiha clan
From the conversation that Tobi had with Itachi in Chapter 590 (http://www.mangahere.com/manga/naruto/v60/c590/11.html), doesn't it confirm that Tobi (be he Madara or not) is an Uchiha? He has the sharingan (although he could've implanted them himself) and has avast knowledge of the Uchiha, especially on Madara, The Six Paths Sage, and his sons. I think due to his age he possibly could've been an Uchiha who was a close person or a follower of Madara, which would explain why he knows so much about Madara taking some of Hashirama's cells, his grudge against the Uchiha clan and the Leaf village and his eye of the moon plan. But this could also mean that he is truly Madara Uchiha, and he was possibly the result of the splitting jutsu, the same jutsu that Mū did earlier during his brief battle against Naruto before he was hit with the rasengan ( which he strangely already knew). Anyway, just wanted to post my theory. Anyone care to reply?--Black Ronin8 (talk) 19:00, July 5, 2012 (UTC)Black Ronin8

Is there something wrong with my post?
I posted my talk post about, maybe 4 times, yet within a short timespan it's gone. I hope I didn't do anything wrong. Can anyone please be able to respond and tell what to do? If I did I apologized. I'm new here.--Black Ronin8 (talk) 19:04, July 5, 2012 (UTC)Black Ronin8
 * You're not supposed to add any speculations here. - White Flash - (Talk) - 19:13, July 5, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, sorry, my bad. I'm still new here lol--Black Ronin8 (talk) 18:25, July 9, 2012 (UTC)Black Ronin8

Addition of Tsukoyomi in Tobi's Jutsus
I think we should add tsukoymi in Tobi's jutsus because he was involved in struggling for his eye of the moon plan which can not be completed without Tsukuyomi.--Dawoodahmad10 (talk) 11:26, July 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * True. And when and if he ever does use Tsukuyomi, he'll be added as a user. But not before.--72.252.230.85 (talk) 11:51, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

Well, in the manga he is about to revive the Ten-Tails and in Naruto 6: Road to Ninja, he has actually used it ... but movies aren't canon, right :P--Elveonora (talk) 18:00, July 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Not really. Some movies are canon, in my opinion. For example, One Piece Film: Strong World was canon to the actual series because it featured the same character mentioned in the manga and Oda-sensei kinda confirmed it. Still, the OP Wiki doesn't know for sure and it's still in debate. Lots of fans consider movies canon when the creator of said series is taking part of the production. Unless, Kishi-sensei said about it, we really don't know for sure.-- Ninja Sheik  18:08, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

That's not the kind of "canon" I'm talking about ... the movie portrays alternative events that didn't occur in manga or have happened differently ... the thing is, the movie portrays things like Sakura's parents ... so to consider them her parents in canon as well or "movie only" parents? The same goes for Tobi ... if he could use Tsukuyomi in the movie, then he must be able to do so in the canon manga story as well since it's even his plan, right?--Elveonora (talk) 18:15, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

well wasn't it stated that kishimoto was involved in the movies production? i say it's semi-canon (i think thats how its said), more like an alternative storyline but still just as canon, besides we still dont know the specifics we shouldnt be rushing to conclusions about tobi using tsukuyomi despite ( prossibly) using it in the movie, when he hasnt shown an eternal/ mangekyo sharingan.71.71.58.224 (talk) 23:44, July 8, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan

The trailer confirms he has actually used it, but you are right ... we don't know if he did personally or some plot behind it--Elveonora (talk) 00:21, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

it did? oh man i seriously need to watch more of the trailers. anyway well umm yeah there might be more behind it then what initialy see. i trea the canonicity of this movie kinda like how that anime sequence to ultimate ninja generations.71.71.58.224 (talk) 00:24, July 9, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan

Given that he uses several Space/Time techniques from his eyes, odds are good Tobi knows at least some form of Mangekyou Sharingan techniques, whether or not it's Tsukoyomi, who knows, but site policy unfortunately comes first and as much as the technique does play a part in his plans, he was never exactly clear on "Who" would be performing it. Just that he would be making use of it to control the world. It's the little details you have to watch when dealing with known liar characters. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 05:33, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

What's the name of the trailer that shows Tobi using Tsukiyomi? I'm real interested in seeing it.--Black Ronin8 (talk) 18:28, July 9, 2012 (UTC)Black Ronin8

Naruto 6 Road To Ninja latest trailers--Elveonora (talk) 19:14, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

name in recent chapters
hey guys, i just notice. in the translation of mangareader,since chapter 590, characters(itachi and orochimaru) started calling him TOBI...well i"m not surprise about orochimaru, since kabuto(and by extension orochimaru) knew that tobi is not madara...but itachi too?is that a wrong translation?or just to show who among the madara are they talking about?--Saeyatachi (talk) 03:07, July 12, 2012 (UTC)Saeyatachi

It appears that they were aware he isn't Madara, but that's just how I see it.--Elveonora (talk) 03:11, July 12, 2012 (UTC)

Seeing that Itachi never revoked his previous warnings about the masked man, who he called Madara, just because he's calling him by a different name doesn't necessarily mean he reformulated an identity for him. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 07:46, July 12, 2012 (UTC)

frankly..i didn't get a thing you just said? :P --Saeyatachi (talk) 07:55, July 12, 2012 (UTC)Saeyatachi

You do remember that he was introduced to them as Tobi yes? And Itachi didn't/doesn't knew that Tobi is the Madara he knew under there (because of his mask and persona change) and I don't remember Itachi ever calling the Tobi he knew in Akatsuki Madara. In fact the two didn't seem to have any contact at all (from what we've been shown).--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 09:06, July 12, 2012 (UTC)

I have no idea what you mean when you say "Itachi didn't/doesn't knew that Tobi is the Madara he knew under there". Itachi told Sasuke that Madara was still alive, and the real Madara had already been dead for several years or however long at that point. He also said that particular individual created Akatsuki and was a "shell of his former self", which was what Tobi called himself later on as well. Itachi specifically mentioned that he met with Madara right before the Uchiha Massacre, so he was referring to the masked man in every instance when speaking about "Madara". --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 19:53, July 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * The "Madara" Itachi knows and the Tobi Itachi knows. Itachi more than likely did not know that the two were one in the same. People wear masks, it's not a foreign concept in the series. Where's the source to verify the source of your information? Because I don't remember Itachi saying any of that to Sasuke. "Shell of his former self" is simply referring to Madara power-wise and the toll that the battle with Hashirama took on him (I don't know about anyone else but I don't think Tobi is a liar and I believe everything he says is transferrable to the "real"/reincarnated Madara) but Itachi definitely didn't know anything about the reincarnated Madara or that Madara and Tobi weren't one in the same.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 20:11, July 12, 2012 (UTC)

You are over complicating things. Itachi only referred to one man the entire time when speaking to Sasuke, and that man was Madara Uchiha - the leader of the Uchiha clan, the person that fought Hashirama Senju in the Valley of the End, the person that created Akatsuki, the person he met with prior to the Uchiha Clan Massacre, the man responsible for the Nine-tails attack on Konoha, etc. Itachi stated he kept on eye on that masked individual for the rest of his life as he didn't trust him, so there's no way he didn't know that the Akatsuki Tobi was the same person he initially met with long hair just because he changed his mask and cut his hair; you're being absurd.

Now, as far as Itachi knowing about the real Madara being resurrected via Edo Tensei, this is unknown as Itachi was never informed or hinted at his return. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 22:45, July 12, 2012 (UTC)

Itachi sure was aware that "Madara Uchiha" and Tobi are one and the same, if he had known the real Madara that got revived as fake has not been confirmed--Elveonora (talk) 22:52, July 12, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think I'm being absurd I think you're the only bridging impossible situations together. Yes someone cuts their hair, changes their mask and personality is an entirely different person than the one Itachi met and spoke with before the Uchiha Incident. Also Itachi never said he kept and eye on the masked one (if so provide a source) because I only know of it being said that Itachi joined Akatsuki to keep an eye on the entire organisation, not just one person.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 22:58, July 12, 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps if you took the time to read, you'd see that it's even written on Tobi's page. "Tobi complied, training Itachi and providing assistance. However, Itachi never truly trusted Tobi and kept an eye on him for the rest of his life." --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 23:41, July 12, 2012 (UTC)

actually...cerez has a point...it's possible that itachi didn't knew that the tobi(swirl patterned mask) and the tobi(flame patterned mask is the same. or maybe this is a hint that the flame patterned(with long hair) whom itachi approached is different than the short haired tobi...but ofcourse these arestill assumptions--Saeyatachi (talk) 01:45, July 13, 2012 (UTC)Sayatachi

Speculation, unless stated otherwise by Kishi/manga, all Tobi Masks are the same person. Madara doesn't appear as someone that would hide his face--Elveonora (talk) 21:03, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

yeah...Saeyatachi (talk) 06:52, July 15, 2012 (UTC)Saeyatachi

Yes it says that in Tobi's article but you've seemingly forgotten that at one point Tobi and Madara's articles were one when the characters were believed to be a single entity. The part that says "Tobi complied, training Itachi and providing assistance. However, Itachi never truly trusted Tobi and kept an eye on him for the rest of his life." is referring to Tobi under the guise of Uchiha Madara and that last part may possibly need changing. Go back to the fight between the two brothers at Uchiha Hideout Itachi says he was mentored by Madara Uchiha, which is exactly whom he believes him to be. I don't ever remember Itachi calling Tobi Madara in the first place.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 09:05, July 15, 2012 (UTC)

Cerez, what do you not understand about Itachi referring to the masked man in all instances when mentioning the name "Madara" to Sasuke? In addition, "Tobi" is not even the masked man's real name...it was just a temporary name given to his fake persona since the legendary leader of the Uchiha clan's name would raise quite a bit of suspicion and attention. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 06:40, July 16, 2012 (UTC)

Yes he does refer to him but the only face he's given to that description? We've only ever seen the flame-patterned mask, nothing else. As for Tobi's name, whether it's real or not has no bearing with me. We've already had a lengthy discussion and until more is revealed about the character, his name won't be changed.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 17:31, July 16, 2012 (UTC)