Talk:Sharingan

Madara's Manipulation of Kurama
In chapter 568, page 7, Madara is shown using his three tomoe Sharingan to control Kurama, not a Mangekyo Sharingan. While it has been stated by Itachi (and Sasuke) that the Mangekyo Sharingan possesses the ability to control the Kyubi, neither Madara nor Tobi - the only two people in history to do so - have used a Mangekyo to manipulate the Nine-tailed Fox, so I think the information for Madara should be displayed as experienced and visually, not verbally.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 06:59, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it's required to have MS activated, just awakened. --Elveonora (talk) 21:44, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

That wouldn't really make any sense. Every other single MS technique requires the dojutsu to be active. If that were true, the masked man wouldn't be able to control Kurama nor any of the other tailed beasts since he has never been shown possessing anything above a standard Sharingan.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 22:35, March 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Itachi and Madara have used Susanoo without their respective Mangekyō Sharingans being activated. In fact Sasuke and Itchi have both used partial forms of Susanoo with only their Sharingans activated in recent chapters.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 22:40, March 16, 2012 (UTC)

That's what I mean ... the thing MS is not activated does not mean the power is not there. --Elveonora (talk) 00:14, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

If you're referring to this page: http://www.mangabit.com/manga/naruto/chapter/576/page/5, Sasuke clearly has his MS activated, as does Itachi in the next page. I don't know where you're getting this information from. Madara only used his basic Sharingan to control Kurama, as did Tobi, the latter which has never been shown displaying an advanced form of the dojutsu. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 00:19, March 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Oh dear I totally skipped that page. I was also referring to the final parts of Itachi's fight with Sasuke, Madara's current use of the Rinnegan and Susanoo and here. You should learn not to conveniently leave out parts of a post just to simply prove a point.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 11:21, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

And you should learn that the Mangekyo can be activated and deactivated almost instantly, just like when the two siblings met and briefly used Susano'o's fists. When we see Itachi's Sharingan on that page, Susano'o is not activated at all; he just used it to smash through the wall then deactivated it immediately after. As for Madara, the Rinnegan is a stage above the EMS and can still use all of his MS techniques while active; I thought this was common knowledge. However, the three tomoe Sharingan is a stage below the MS and cannot use any of its abilities without be active.

Speculate all you want, but Madara is blatantly using a standard Sharingan and nothing more. In addition, Kurama's eyes reflect the same exact design; there is no MS involved whatsoever.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 22:08, March 17, 2012 (UTC)

It was clearly stated that in order to control Kurama (and other TB) MS is required. --Elveonora (talk) 01:36, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

Did you even read the conversation? It's clearly shown that both Madara and Tobi are only using a standard three tomoe Sharingan, despite whatever Itachi/Sasuke said. I don't know about you, but I find actions speak louder than words. Even Kurama's eyes reflect the three tomoe design, not an MS.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 01:05, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

So ? --Elveonora (talk) 01:10, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

So there is no Mangekyo involved whatsoever and the statement that says Madara uses an EMS to control Kurama should be edited.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 01:21, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

I think it's already stated in both Tobi and Madara articles that they have used just Sharingan. Yet I think it was either during Sasuke vs Itachi or Databook that mentions MS is required. --Elveonora (talk) 16:54, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

The Mangekyō Sharingan has the ability to control the Nine-Tailed Demon Fox, although Madara Uchiha is the only ones to accomplish this milestone, Tobi having done the same but with only a regular Sharingan.

This statement is set up like Tobi used a different method to control Kurama than Madara, but they both did the exact same thing and used the exact same dojutsu. Maybe the MS is required if they don't possess extraordinary chakra like the two aforementioned shinobi, but it appears that they are exceptions to this rule, and I fail to see how possessing an MS and it not being active would allow someone to use any of its abilities or traits. Honestly, Itachi and Sasuke don't seem to be as knowledgeable about the dojutsu's secrets as Madara and Tobi, especially if you consider that neither has awakened the EMS (until recently) nor the Rinnegan and could not fully decipher the tablet left by the Sage without the latter eyes.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 20:26, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

That's like asking how could Sasuke read the Sage's tablet with his Sharingan deactivated ... It's clearly stated that MS is required to do so, there's no need for it to be active. Kinda like Itachi's relugar genjutsu is stronger than Sasuke's Tsukuyomi. You not seeing a gun in my hand does not mean it's not hidden in my pocket. It's nowhere stated they are using Tsukuyomi to control the Tailed Beasts/Kurama. Just that power of Mangekyou Sharingan needs to be awakened. But I agree, the way it's worder in the article is wrong. --Elveonora (talk) 20:46, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

Tobi defies this tenet nonetheless as he has never been seen using an MS, and if he did have the ability to utilize one, he would've awakened it by now, but seeing as he was so set on obtaining the Rinnegan, I think it's reasonable to conclude that he is unable to do so.

Now, one could say he's using Hashirama's DNA to augment his visual prowess, but Hashirama manipulated the tailed beasts via Hokage-Style Sixty-Year-Old Technique — Kakuan Entering Society with Bliss-Bringing Hands and didn't use any eye power whatsoever, and there hasn't been any sign of his cells even being able to enhance the eyes themselves.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 21:59, March 19, 2012 (UTC)

If Tobi is who I think he is, he had a MS before even though he now uses a regular Sharingan. Also the popular theory is that Madara awakened Rinnegan after getting Hashirama's DNA so it can affect the eyes. One way or the other, this is getting off-topic. Just edit what you want and if others find it as wrong, it will be removed. --Elveonora (talk) 22:37, March 19, 2012 (UTC)