Talk:Nature Transformation/Archive 2

Lightning icon colour
I was updating the icons I made for the elements and a question came to mind; should I change the colour of the lightning icon from purple to yellow? --ShounenSuki (talk 17:08, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Now that you mention, there is a lack of yellow, but I'd wait until a few more people voiced their opinions. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:14, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think a yellow-gold lightning icon would look really good and tie in more to the other color icons (red fire, blue water, brown earth, yellow lightning), but would you also change the wind icon to a lighter white shade too? --Dragon Hacker (talk) 17:40, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * P.S. I liked the original star shaped advanced nature chart (above) so much better than the choppy square chart which it was changed to. It was so much easier to read the combinations of advanced natures in the star chart and it tied in with the circular chart we already had; plus it showed the MOST LIKELY advanced nature combinations which were not confirmed yet to fill in the chart, all it needed was for the arrows to be cleaned up and more curved to match with the circular chart--Dragon Hacker (talk) 17:40, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * That one was removed because it wasn't as good quality as the svg icons. The table is something I tried so we'd have some image showing what produces what when mixed, my original idea was to make something like the star chart. I left a message in the edit summary saying it needs tweaking to better fit in the page, my coding skills are rather limited. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:45, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * ShounenSuki, I love your icons, they are the coolest! I actually go to your user page and look at your icons quite a bit. Maybe you should make the new lightning icon a dandelion-yellow. I also think that the dust nature should change colour, because the colour is a little close to the earth nature's icon. Otherwise, i love them all!--NejiByakugan360 17:51, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure changing the color for Dust would help, it's different enough from Earth. Earth is a chocolate brown, Dust is closer to beige, coffee tone. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:57, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry! I wasn't trying to bash your chart, but I was just trying to state my preference. But ya, I do think that the star chart flows more with the theme. Also as another note (sorry, lol, can't help myself) we have so many red advanced nature icons (Fire, Lava, Blaze, anything fire related, Boil) should we change some to other colors too, like Lava being orange'ier or Boil being purple'ier? I'll try to stop now... --Dragon Hacker (talk) 18:02, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, there was one thing in the star chart that I liked: because of the circular form in which the basic elements were layed out, there were no repetitions of advanced elements. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:09, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Here, I couldn't resist myself so I made some of these changes to the images, here they are:

File:Lightning.png File:Wind.png File:Lava.png File:Boil.png File:Dust.png File:Ice.png File:Wood.png
 * Why would you make Boil Release purple?


 * Any way, I feel the colours are fine as they are right now, so I'm not really planning on changing them unless there's a strong call for change from the community. I only asked about Lightning Release because the colour image in chapter 457 gave the lightning behind the Raikage a yellow colour. For the rest, I believe the colours fir the natures perfectly fine and I feel they are clear and distinct enough to serve their purpose. I like them as they are. --ShounenSuki (talk 20:18, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, I was just changing the colors slightly based what I heard on this page and others about peoples preferences. Oh, and I changed the Boil to purple because I felt there were many red natures. I was just seeing what people thought about the icons, so no problem. --Dragon Hacker (talk) 20:40, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I like those new icons. I think you should change the lightning and such to them.
 * The new color for the Lightning Nature is great! You rock Suki! --Cidem1324
 * Since you changed the icon, all icons of the basic natures seem to match the respective coutries kage hat, according to the cover of volume 49. 24.45.20.86 (talk) 00:07, December 31, 2009 (UTC)
 * I know, that's why I changed it in the first place. --ShounenSuki (talk 01:06, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

Do we even NEED the Advanced Nature chart?
I mean seriously. The ShounenSuki created one of the thing we saw in the series I get, but do we need the advanced one? Cause first that random chart looks kinda funky, then we have no real proof if any of that holds up beyond assuming the advanced nature shares the same weaknesses/strengths as their originals.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 17:58, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * If you're talking about the one I made, it's not supposed to show who's stronger than who, but which element a specific blend will produce. Wanna know what Water and Fire make? See where the line and column meet and you have Boil. That's what I wanted to put in the page. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:02, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm talking about in general. It looks like that section is getting overly confusing for no reason. I mean, do we honestly need a picture diagram pointing that out, when its already mentioned clearly in it's bullet point and article?TheUltimate3 (talk) 18:04, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * We have one for the relationships between basic elements, I think a more visual approach could be helpful. The main issue is to find a way to make a less intrusive explanation. If the star chart could be made into a svg image, and have the speculative portions of it removed, it would be great. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:09, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the reason we should make an advanced nature chart using the same method as the basic natures chart is quite simple, to replace the basic nature chart since the advance nature chart will have the basic included in it. Simant (talk) 19:07, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

I think we should get rid of the part that says lightning+fire=blaze. Blaze is Ametarasu combined with shape transformation.
 * As an advanced nature, it should be composed of two basic elements, but this is an unique case, so we're noting the most logical explanation using what was already known. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:39, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

What do you think about replacing this chart with a table? Something like this: geohound (talk) 19:08, December 26, 2010 (UTC)

We've tried that in the past, people didn't like it. The current star-shaped one is also less repetitive, showing each nature icon just once. If you like tables like that, check my nature transformation theory page. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:13, December 26, 2010 (UTC)

Idea!
Why cant we just do something like this, instead of having a huge table? The Ice (氷, Kōri) nature, used by Haku, is created by simultaneously combining the Water and Wind natures. This nature allows for the use of Ice Release (氷遁, Hyōton) ninjutsu. Ice Release has been shown as being strong against Fire Release. Yukigakure-nin and Renga were also able to use Ice Release techniques without the kekkei genkai, by drawing on already-existing ice and cold. +=Ice Release
 * I don't oppose that idea. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:04, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * eh... kinda dislike both ideas. I mean the entire point of the advanced nature chart was to replace the basic nature chart image. Simant (talk) 23:07, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

That looks good, i think the original advance nature chart should be put up now (the star one) in won't be confusing because of the equations to clear things up. That way relationships can be viewed and it may contribute to a strength/weakness system that could occur later on --Flaremmm (talk) 02:10, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * For one I find it amazing how users pop out of nowhere and comment just to say they agree with another edit. But whatever. first of all, the images are included wrong on the page. secondly, what is the point of writing something like "The letter A Plus the letter B equals AB" and then writing next to it, "A+B=AB". Seems kinda redundant to me. Simant (talk) 02:15, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know what you're talking but AB = A X B not A + B. And I didn't just say I liked the edit, if you bothered to read my first post and FYI i have been watching this page for ages and this is the first time i am satisfied with the implemented system.--Flaremmm (talk) 02:19, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not referring to math. I am referring to ObjectA + ObjectB = NewObjectAB. And thanks for saying how bad a job we were doing before if this is the first time you were satisfied. Simant (talk) 02:53, October 17, 2009 (UTC)

I just didn't like the new chart and the old one was hard to make out--Flaremmm (talk) 03:48, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the equation solution currently in the article adds absolutely nothing. At least the table allowed people to quickly look up what advanced elements used, for instance, Earth Release. --ShounenSuki (talk 12:18, October 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * I still don't see why we don't assume our readers can read and just not have any of this >.> it's been going on for like 2 weeks and so far the page just went from ok, to bad, to worse, to lolbad.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 12:38, October 17, 2009 (UTC)

Movie natures
The third Shippuden movie natures are certainly going to stir things up. Do we make a seperate section for them, or do we simply list them along the manga ones and Crystal? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:23, October 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * Why ? Natures are not necessarily doing by mixing, such as sand (Gaara), paper (Konan) or the iron sand (Sasori with Third Kazekage puppets) and the other did not was not determined like the shadow (Nara Clan) or Enton. Itachou (talk) 17:27, October 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * Every -ton technique is an element, apart from Enton, those aren't advanced nature. Sand is a bijuu derived ability, Konan developed her own jutsu, most likely a hijutsu, Nara clan shadow techniques are also hijutsu, Iron Sand is a kekkei genkai, but has never been called an advanced nature, only speculated as being one. Still no idea on what Blaze Release is, but it's either fire and lightning (which I find unlikely), or it's the first of a class of advanced natures that are uber powerful forms of the basic elements. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:34, October 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * There are new elements? I didn't notice that... --ShounenSuki (talk 21:51, October 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * 2 Problems I Have: Swift Release, and Dust Release are both called Jinton some body please fix or change this also WHY ARE THERE 3 NEW Elemental Releases I mean Swift, Dark, Metal? Only the Latter sounds like an element this is to hard to follow anymore.--Nintendo-Fan (talk) 01:53, October 18, 2009 (UTC)Nintendo-Fan

Swift Release might be Lightning related, as in or. Not sure about Dark Release, but carries additional connotations of "darkness", such as the unseen and divine, or the darkness of a grave or of the underworld. It could potentially be related to yin/yang transformation, as well. There could also be the possibility of elements produced by combining three elements simultaneously. FF-Suzaku (talk) 02:28, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * I've got a question since I haven't seen the movie, how do you know how is called the element if in the swift and steel release says there's no named jutsu of them?Happy Milk xD (talk) 03:08, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * I have a question as well: How certain are we that these are actually new elements? Judging by their articles, Swift Release is nothing more than the Body Flicker Technique and Steel Release nothing more than Earth Release: Earth Spear. Dark Release sounds like the Chakra Absorption Technique and the film's Storm Release sounds like a Lightning Release combined with the Chakra Absorption Technique. Are we sure they are actually said to be elements in the film? We've seen all of these abilities before without it being special elements. --ShounenSuki (talk 14:36, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * Only reason I see them as advanced natures is because of their "-ton" names. When I first learned about Hiruko and his Chimera technique and stealing of kekkei genkai, the first thing it came to my mind was kekkei genkai that were body enhancements, kinda like Shikotsumyaku. Ask FF-Suzaku, he's the one who added the info. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:43, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * Just another thing, not all jutsus with "-ton" in their names are advanced natures: Shirōikiton .Happy Milk xD (talk) 15:26, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * That one is a bit obvious, but that's also a video game jutsu. I know these are movie jutsu, but from what was added about them, they could be natures. They certainly fall under what we've seem regarding advanced natures and kekkei genkai, Four-Tail's Lava Release notwithstanding. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:48, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

So i'm currently watching it with french subtitles (im anglo-francophone) and the so called Metal Release (Style de Métal translated: "Metal Style") might be a different Nature. However, I don't think that the information in the movie is sufficient enough. I digress, I completely agree with ShounenSuki.--NejiByakugan360 17:14, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * ^_^ Be careful about any language version of Naruto other than the official Japanese or English language versions... ;) You know, the bulgarian version of the naruto anime translates from the English version of the series and uses this wiki as a reference. *snicker* ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Oct 18, 2009 @ 17:24 (UTC)


 * Where did you find it with subtitles NejiByakugan? My French isn't perfect, but I can still get something. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:29, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

Never mind someone made up the subtitles and the video was deleted. So sorry for the inconvinience! -_-'. Ps: Sorry i forgot to sign in and sign my comment.--NejiByakugan360 18:17, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * The movie was shown (or parts of it?) with French subtitles a while back at a big convention of some sort in France, as I recall. I got the Japanese technique names and translated them into English myself, they can be found (with descriptions) on various Japanese websites and in the Japanese Naruto wiki pages, among other locations. At any rate, it would probably be best to wait for more information before putting them in the Nature Transformation articles. Dark Release is definitely phrased like a nature transformation, though. FF-Suzaku (talk) 06:24, October 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * Found three videos at youtube, but none of them show these new natures, the third one does show the Chimera jutsu though. Here they are:  . Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:12, October 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * I also did find the character FF-Suzaku listed down in the Japanese page for the movie with Ctrl+F, section on Hiruko (also found by Ctrl+F and the kanji for his name we use in his article) reads this:
 * 卑留呼（ヒルコ）: 声 - 保志総一朗
 * かつての木ノ葉の忍. 全身に包帯を巻いているのが特徴. 伝説の三忍とは知り合いだったが、自分が強くなれなかったことを憂い、一人孤立し動物実験を行い、鬼芽羅の術を会得した. しかしこのことは木ノ葉に知られ、里を追われる身となる. 血継限界を持つ忍を連れ去ったのは、金環日食が行われる日に鬼芽羅の術でその忍の術を自らのものとし、最強の忍として世界征服を行うため. カカシを狙ったのは、17年前の第三次忍界対戦（神無毘橋の戦い）で生き残った際、うちは一族の血継限界である写輪眼を得る事であり、当時のカカシに出会った時に17年後に自分の元に来るよう時限式の術を掛けた.
 * 時が近くなると血継限界を持つ忍を4人連れ去り、木ノ葉や砂隠れに自らの幻影を映し、宣戦布告をする. 最後の一人となったカカシを取り込めば完全になるところだったが、予め綱手がカカシに掛けていた時限式の術で万華鏡写輪眼（神威）が発動して阻まれ、助けに来たナルトと共に交戦. 最終的にナルトの風遁・螺旋手裏剣を自身の術で抑えきれず敗北. 死に際に、カカシから自身が一人ではないことを教えられた.
 * 鬼芽羅の術で会得した独自の血継限界は「鋼遁」「迅遁」「冥遁」「嵐遁」である
 * From what I gather, the last line shows what he got with his technique. Link for the wikipedia article is here for those who want to check themselves. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:34, October 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * That text does say I guess they really are advanced elements, then. This does make me wonder if the film makers even care about what they make... They could have at least come up with original abilities. --ShounenSuki (talk 21:55, October 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * I say if they are to be added to the Nature Transformation page, put them in a separate category from the other 8 Advance Natures (similar to Speculation), and indicate that they are from the movie (Other Advance Natures). This way it won't confuse people who just read the manga, and for those who don't consider the movies canon.
 * Like a non-canon section? Fine by me, as long as we move Crystal there too, it may have been in the anime, but it's canon as these. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:09, October 20, 2009 (UTC)

I am against that move. Anime counts as much as manga here. The gray areas are games the movies, which tend to do things like this.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 14:44, October 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * You think a movie nature section would be better? I can deal with that, as long as they're properly listed. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:28, October 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm seriously for the idea. Maybe you should make a Non-canonical Natures section because there me be different natures in games to. Just a suggestion. I seriously like the idea of putting it in a different section.--NejiByakugan360 22:40, October 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * Separating them to that extent is unnecessary (I'm saying that a lot now). It will eventually cause crap on this already fluctuating page to get even worse. Simply making it clear that these were movie only would suffice. It does not have to get any more complicated than that. Sometimes simple solutions are the best solutions.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 22:48, October 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * Omg I completely agree. Very well said. *Claps* =). So does that mean we should still seperate it? I mean I you are right that it might bring a load more of crap so...........--NejiByakugan360 23:00, October 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * The only thing is (in my opignion) is that these natures seem extreemly unreal, especially swift release. Swift is not much of a nature. Even crystal is proved to be a nature because it has texture. Swift isnt really like an object that touched. Isnt this just like an extreemly enhanced Body Flicker Technique? Dark may be considered as a sort of opposite of lightning, not to sure about that one either. It sort of bothers me that this may be a Yin-Yang which is like light and dark natured chakra. Metal definatly makes sense though, even though there is still Earth Release: Earth Spear...It depends. If, when someone tried to hit him and he used the Metal Release and it made an appropriate noise on metal being hit, then it can be considered a nature, no?--NejiByakugan360 23:05, October 20, 2009 (UTC)

The properties of all these film natures can already be found in regular techniques used in the manga. None of them would qualify for a new element, but the films never bothered with consistency and canonicity. I dislike the anime, but even they did a better job coming up with an element.

Keeping the film natures separate from the manga and anime natures sounds like the best option right now. --ShounenSuki (talk 23:17, October 20, 2009 (UTC)

ShounenSuki! Please tell me that you are making more icons!? I love them!--NejiByakugan360 23:24, October 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * Trying to keep them separated like that is what kept this discussion going way longer than it needed to be. Like I said, the best solution is to just add them in, mark them off as movie only, and let fate play them out on it's own time. No more. No less. The end.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 23:25, October 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * If you do make the icons, I think you should consider having that color change for the lightning nature to yellow, this way you can the purple to dark nature (or a darker shade of purple), not we'd be able to see the kanji with a black background, unless you change the color of the kanji as well. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:40, October 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * Suggestions noted ^^ The new icons will be up soon. --ShounenSuki (talk 14:54, October 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * Why don't you just use those icons on the top of this page? then you just have to make the 3 new ones. --216.174.135.2 (talk) 15:12, October 21, 2009 (UTC)

Those are png files, they don't zoom in and out as well as svg ones. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:31, October 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * You never cease to amaze me ShounenSuki. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:41, October 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, the new icons are up. I hope you like them. --ShounenSuki (talk 17:47, October 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * According to the Japanese Wikipedia, the film's Storm Release is made up of the Lightning and Wind Releases. Could someone verify this? --ShounenSuki (talk 20:16, October 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * Maybe FF-Suzaku? He says he watched the movie (or at least parts of it) in the French event, small parts of which are in the videos I linked above. Storm being part wind makes a bit of sense, considering the bottom part of the character for storm is the character for wind. Unless Darui uses Wind Release techniques, I don't see the current definition for Storm Release being called into question. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:34, October 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see how storm would also be wind. Darui can use water and lightning and storm release, for storm to include wind Darui would would also have to have 3 natures which would mean that he would have 2 bloodline limits, since those with an advanced nature can only use that nature and the 2 natures that make it up (as said by Tenzo), which is highly unlikely. Plus storm release looks like liquefied lightning. I personally think that the lightning release and wind release would make up swift release...
 * No need to shout. Anyway, there's no reason why he'd have to have two kekkei genkai. The Fifth Mizukage has two kekkei genkai, but the two use an element in common, fire. I see no reason for Darui to have a Storm kekkei genkai, giving him lightning and water, and he could have developed wind release on his own. It's also conceivable that one can have two kekkei genkai with different natures. Having Ice Release and Lava Release would mean one also has Water, Wind, Fire and Earth Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:53, October 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I have no problem if the Storm Release is really a mixture of the Lightning and Wind natures. Darui would have the Storm nature Blood Limit, allowing him to mix the Lightning and Wind natures, but didn't have the Ice nature Blood Limit to mix the Wind and Water natures, but still learned the Water separately. Though lets wait until the english translated version of the movie comes out before changing the Storm nature. On a random note, I can't wait until the Tsukikage to use Wind so I can make his Dust nature a mixture of Earth and Wind. >_< User:Cidem1324


 * I have to agree with this statement. The writer and anime studio are starting to seriously go overboard with the advanced natures.  Its getting somewhat rediculous.  Ice made sense... Wood made sense... Crystal even made sense... but all these ones that are just flying out the woodworks don't even seem like they had proper thought put into them, and they just keep coming!--SkyFlicker (talk) 05:55, October 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep in mind about the storm release and their other advanced natures...the studio probably came up with this script well over a year ago, whereas the author probably began thinking about the 4 most recent adv nature types like 2 months ago... i think the author giving dariu Storm Release (water and light) is basically the author saying "these movie advanced types don't count as far as im concerned"--SkyFlicker (talk) 06:25, October 23, 2009 (UTC)
 * New points of discussion go at the bottom. Makes the topic easier to follow.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 10:17, October 23, 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for being late but heres my two cents on this crap up.

1) I agree on labeling them as movie only as we see as usual with that storm jutsu the movie makers ignore whats established in the manga.

2)Heres my break down of each element introduced or screwed up by this movie:

Metal: I'm fine with could actually be a element fusion, we'll hate to wait for it to be named so or introduced in the manga.

Swift: Same as metal.

Storm: Didn't we already establish that as Water and Lighting? It seems like its the Movie makers not Kishi who have disregard for the material. Also the "Kishi thought of it in two months or after the creators" is bs and unfounded link me or its bs.Maybe we should make a note on the page that in the third movie wind + lighting is storm while in the manga its Water and Lighting and also talk about the difference in the just used like how that cloud thingy was a chakra absorber while the laser thing was like liquid lighting, maybe in the trivia section.

Dark: Here is my #1 problem why is that a element fusion? Isn't Dark chakra like a component to regular chakra and then has to be transformed to gain an nature? This seems like a paradox to me. No I am not saying it isn't a element or can't be used but isn't it used by medical ninja and the Nara clan, which are hidden jutsu I might add and those jutsu doesn't seem "need bloodline" to me.All I am saying making dark/yin chakra an element fusion is creating a big contradictory plot hole and only serves to confused people, hopefully the movie only label well clear things up.

Overall: I think the movie makers screwed up like they did with the first movie with the ice. The least they could have done was explain the Dark chakra or separated in some way in name or explanation as to not confuse people. Not only did they mess over a regular element fusion, Storm, but they also messed over a sensitive subject the Yin/Yang. All I am saying is people when debating elements don't use this movie as a source as its non-canon.Saimaroimaru (talk) 00:29, November 12, 2009 (UTC)

The thing is that yin and yang means dark and liht, so if yin and yang is a basic nature it would be possible for dark release to be basic, btu not avancded. 24.45.20.86 (talk) 21:37, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

The Dark in the Dark Release is not the same as the dark in Yin and Yang. The Dark in Dark Release has to do with gloominess and the like, dark in Yin and Yang is about balancing opposites. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:40, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Thats what I'm not saying, ugh I give up, they are classified as movie only so I'm good.Saimaroimaru (talk) 05:35, December 1, 2009 (UTC)

Yin yang
shouldnt Yin yang be posted as a element since it is an element that doesnt consist of an acyual element, but still is a element. and put a icon for it and put it as a element for shikamaru, tayuya, and others, like choji ino and techniques like shadow clone, flying swallow,etc. and puut is as either white black or grey

Not necessarily an element, there's little to no information about it to do anything other than what already is. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:27, October 21, 2009 (UTC) I should still at least make a page for it right? we need to cover every thing on naruto, Right?

Pick a page to talk about it and stick with it, it's quite bothersome to reply to the same topic in two different articles. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:25, October 22, 2009 (UTC)

Advanced Relationships
It would be nice if File:Advanced Elemental Relationships Diagram.svg had an imagemap, so you could click the individual items. I would do it but I'm not sure how to compensate for how svg files are resizable. Simant (talk) 14:31, October 22, 2009 (UTC)

Real quick, Steam and boil are the same thing! So get rid of the steam part on speculation.

Another thing, in any other anime like pokemon water makes lightning stronger. I thinkk you could combine lightning, wind, and water to make lightning clouds.

The Mizukage's techniques are acid. Steam isn't acid. This isn't Pokémon, and there are no kekkei merging three elements. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:47, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

The last guy was right, there could be three elements combined. We don't know what Kishimoto sama wants to do, and water makes lightning stonger, that's just nature, dumbass.

Has any character in the manga ever hinted at three elements combo? No, so shut it genius. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:03, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah a ninja could use Water Release: Water Encampment Wall to block a lightning jutsu since the water would block and absorb it. Lightning is amplified in water, but you could push that electrically charged water back towards the enemy to shock them. But ninja aren't Pokémon. Lightning-affinity ninja can't resist lightning. In the anime, Shikamaru clearly summoned water with Water Release: Water Field to block and redirect Kakuzu's Lightning Release: False Darkness through the water. Also, in the manga, Darui can use Water and Lightning in a combo. The two make a good combination, but when going against each other, it all depends on the technique and skill. --GoDai (talk) 09:42, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

Water in itself does not make lightning stronger anyways. It is the minerals found within water that conducts electricity. If you have pure water, lightning won't react to it. From how I see it, the relationship between water and lightning would depend on what kind of water was used. If the person used pre-existing water for the jutsu, the relationship between it and a lightning jutsu would be different than the relationship between water chakra and a lightning jutsu.98.22.66.151 (talk) 17:33, May 7, 2010 (UTC)Ryne

Fire+Wind=
In the kakuzu fight he combined wind and fire to create stronger fire. wouldn't this be considered a Nature, its combining both right?
 * Nope, he didn't combine two natures to create a new one, he mixed two seperate techniques to make a new one. Plus, there was no new nature created, it was simply a combination ninjutsu, kinda like the one Hiruzen used against Orochimaru. All the known advanced natures are already listed in the article, when another one is shown, it'll be added, stop pushing it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:19, October 24, 2009 (UTC)

Wind is inferior to fire, n wen added 2 2gether it makes fire stronger so therefore he used wind and then fire to make a stronger fire like how oil added to fire makes it stronger in Toad Flame Bomb--Moiz1224 (talk) 02:00, October 24, 2009 (UTC)

An element being weaker than other means nothing, otherwise there would be no Wood Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:36, October 24, 2009 (UTC) no kakuzu launched a dual attack something called colaboration jutsu --Sartorias (talk) 16:03, November 16, 2009 (UTC)

IMO, fire and wind make either ash or smoke. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:18, December 7, 2009 (UTC)
 * I totally agree with you man. But i also think the resulting nature could have a poisonous side to it besides suffocating and burning the enemy, like a poison gas. I was reminded of Boil Release when I thought of an extra effect besides the obvious name--GoDai (talk) 09:45, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

Leave it at this. Kakashi explained to Naruto that if he use his wind against Sasukes fire the fire would get stronger, So what is fire+wind? Answer Big fire!!!

Using one and another isn't the same as using them by fusing them. Otherwise we wouldn't have techniques fusing elements with weaker and stronger relationships. Earth and Water could never make Wood, Water and Fire could never make Boil. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:47, January 8, 2010 (UTC)

Ya it would, if you shoot fire at water it would boil.

I'm talking about the natures, shooting fire at water wouldn't make it acid. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:03, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

I don't want to see a huge argument about elements, so I will try to answer this as technically as possible. Kekkei genkai grant you significant abilities. I don't think Masashi Kishimoto would be that stupid to make combining techniques and combining natures the same thing. Kekkei genkai are limited to clans. Don't you think they would be worth something?
 * Without kekkei genkai:
 * Water and Ice cannot become ice.
 * Earth and Water can't simply mix into wood.
 * Fire and Earth wouldn't easily become lava OR be able to control it.
 * Water and Lightning wouldn't become "flowing electricity." We all know what it would become.
 * Fire and Water wouldn't become a corrosive acidic vapour.
 * So what does this tell us? Fire and Wind would not become when they are blended together as naturs it would produce something that possessed 1:1-balanced ratios of qualities from both natures. So smoke/ash/gas makes the most sense for now.
 * By the way, from what I see, Omnibender is the only one who has established knowledge with this subject/field, so I wouldn't challenge him unless I was 100% sure something was wrong. In my view right now, everyone that agrees with him would be the normal ones, since he's one of those rare smart people that put enough appropriate reasoning on their speculations. Brilliant.--GoDai (talk) 10:02, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

Yin and Yang
I just want to throw this out there, but I don't think there should be a Yin/Yang section. Firstly, it was never actually said that Yin Yang was something that a ninja transformed chakra into, which is the basis of all elemental techniques. It's even said in the article that it might be something inherent to chakra itself, which makes me think Yin Yang is more related to Shape Manipulation.
 * It's actually literally called a nature transformation by Yamato. --ShounenSuki (talk 21:30, November 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * In what chapter? 24.45.20.86 (talk) 21:11, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Not sure of the number, but after Yamato and Kakashi explain that Wood is made of Water and Earth, Naruto asks him how other jutsu, such as genjutsu, medical ninjutsu, the Nara clan shadow techniques and the Akimichi clan expansion techniques work, Yamato asks Kakashi if they should explain Yin and Yang manipulation. Kakashi says they shouldn't, because Naruto managed to focus on Yamato's explanation. Anyway, found it, chapter 316, page 8 or 9, depending on whether you count the cover as a page. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:19, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Volume 35, chapter 316, page 9, frame 6, speech balloon 1:
 * --ShounenSuki (talk 21:35, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * I just wanna suggest that the 'Yin and Yang' get its own Image Icon like those possessed by the other Nature Transformations. Looking like this of course: I'd do myself but it won't look like the images already created by ShounenSuki. D:  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 02:22, February 17, 2010 (UTC)

Jinton and Jinton
Yeah, about that. Dust Release and Swift Release are Jinton. I find it confusing and a problem. Don't change that, since it is supposed to be read that way, but it just sounds weird. --Lazer81095 (talk) 00:23, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * Same pronunciation, different character. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:45, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * Isn't the Japanese language wonderful?--TheUltimate3 (talk) 14:58, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * ^_^ You added an unnecessary word or two, you mean "Isn't language wonderful?". This isn't in any way unique to the Japanese language. English has it's fair share of words with the same spelling/pronunciation, they're called homographs; Cool, Bow, Bank, Tire, Fluke, Dove, Desert, Shift, Read Wind, Close, etc... Japanese is in fact the better case here, because for any pronunciation there is usually a unique kanji character that can be used to define the actual meaning of the word rather than being forced to guess based on context. Why do you think I tell people to look for name meanings based on the Kanji, NOT the romaji or hiragana? ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Nov 16, 2009 @ 17:46 (UTC)
 * I know. I'm just biased because i iz amerikan. Ha ha responding like 9 days late.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 13:49, November 25, 2009 (UTC)

Movie natures 2
Are we considering these canaon? Under the impression that Blaze is fire and lightning, and the fact that an advanced nature uses two elements, there are only 2 spots, but 3 natures. 24.45.20.86 (talk) 21:19, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * If you are referring to the diagram, no I don't think we will be adding movie natures to that.. it would be very messy, since animators don't use logic a lot of the time. Simant (talk) 21:43, November 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Plus, we're only putting Blaze as fire and lightning because under the definition of advanced nature known to us so far, it has to be two basic natures, and those two are the one that make most sense considering the alternatives. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:48, November 24, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah I don't think these one should be added. The natures from movies are: storm, steel and swift (WTF?). Storm is already an official nature, but steel and swift (despite it's not elemental) are only included in movies, and the truth is: movies are like fillers... but, if the animators include a steel release, it's another thing. By the way Simant, I agree with you. They don't use logic every time... Swift element!!! (I couldn't accept that XD) That's all --Rubião February 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * You forgot Dark Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:03, February 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry. Yeah, dark release is acceptable, despite it's not an element... I'm still waiting for a light release. I think these things will be explained by that yin/yang stuff --Rubião February 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm no Kishimoto, but I've made some theories, feel free to comment on them. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:30, February 20, 2010 (UTC)

Can we change it so that the movie "storm release" and manga "storm release" are treated as two different types? The movie's storm realease is an actual storm that partially overlaps traits of dark release at times. the manga's storm release is like liquid lightning. sure, they have the same name, but they are really different, and should be listed as "Storm Release (Movie)" and "Storm Release (Canon)" for categories. I think what likely happened with this movie, is that the studio making the movie talked to the author and asked what other advanced types are you considering. the author then said "storm release" and "jinton". the studio took storm release to be more simplistic than the actual storm release, and misunderstood "jinton" as being its homophone--SkyFlicker (talk) 10:59, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

I think lightning and wind make swift release cause you know,fast as lightning,fast as the wind?

I highly doubt they'd make a mistake based on the fact they're homophones. And the differences between movie and manga Storm Release are already explained in its article. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:51, June 12, 2010 (UTC)

Nature Icons
I know this may sound dumb but in the pages that link to an elemental bloodline(Advanced, Rinnengan) the icons are only for that bloodline. Shouldn't it also include the elements needed for it? Just curious.--Nintendo-Fan (talk) 06:40, December 21, 2009 (UTC)Nintendo-Fan
 * I don't think it's necessary, but I wouldn't oppose it. By definition we add the basic component to characters, but since we don't do it on techniques themselves, I don't think this would happen. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:46, January 31, 2010 (UTC)

Chakra and mind
While there were no explicit mention to Yin and Yang, the drawings in chapter 490 implied to Yin and Yang are respectively chakra and mind of the power. Should it be added to the page? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:15, April 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * Something else that's bugging me about this. One, Naruto only has access to the Yang side of the Kyuubi's chakra and does this chakra and mind only effect the Tailed beats? It would effect how we write this new addition to the article.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 21:19, April 7, 2010 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure about that, but the Chakra and Mind thing was pretty convincing to be connected to Yin and Yang. Could still be a simplified way that Gerotora used to describe it. --GoDai (talk) 06:14, April 8, 2010 (UTC)

Canonic VS Anime
I have changed the presentation of the "Advanced Types" to make distinction between the canonics natures used in the manga and the anime filler natures which will probably never been count has canonic. So why did Omnibender undo it ? I mean it doesn't change a major thing, it's just say there is some which are used in the manga and some added by anime and movies. (Sorry for my bad english) Ju gatsu mikka (talk) 10:46, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Cause we tried making that separation in the past, other people didn't like it. No point in doing it again. Plus, the distinction is already there with the discreet parenthesis. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:13, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Physical and Energy Based Natures
I don't know if this is helpful/useful in trying to decipher the mystery of chakra natures, but it is at least very interesting. The "physical" natures are water and earth, and the "energy" natures are fire, lightning and wind. That in mind, there is no advanced nature that is known and proven that does not include a physical nature.

Water (P) + Earth (P)= Wood

Water (P) + Wind (E) = Ice

Water (P) + Fire (E) = Boil

Water (P) + Lightning (E) = Storm

Earth (P) + Fire (E) = Lava

Earth (P) + Lightning (E) = Crystal (Presumably)

Earth (P) + Wind (E) = Dust (Presumably)

And yet, even as far as speculation goes, there is no evidence of combining two energy-based natures. The only exception is Blaze release, but everyone seems to agree this is manipulation of Amaterasu and not necessarily derived from combining two elements. And the seven advanced natures above include every combination possible if one side has to be a physical component. So, does that mean it’s not possible to combined two energy-based chakra natures? I just think we would have seen *some* evidence by now if it was possible, given how many other natures have been revealed.66.165.170.254 (talk) 15:32, July 22, 2010 (UTC)

Kishi likes to take his time with revealing new natures. Till we get a source from the manga, databook, or Kishi himself that saids that two "energy" based elements can't be merged together, this is no more than fan speculation.Umishiru (talk) 19:59, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

Nature Misunderstandings
Shouldn't dark and shadow be considered the same thing? If so then wouldn't that mean that Shikamaru's shadow possession jutsu set is of a shadow or dark nature? And on the note, what about Dust and Sand? aren't they the same as well? If not then the article is also missing sand as a chakra nature. From what i can tell, most of the information here is based on The Manga and Movies not too much on the anime. Also, from what i read, the manga's online sometimes are translated differently which is why in some they say sand and others they say dust. I think we should look into this a little deeper.Dj q-pid (talk) 18:25, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

◘Shikamaru's skill is classified under Ying and Yang nature type which hasn't been expounded on much yet. ◘Sand manipulation is an ability Gaara gained from having the Shukaku sealed within him. If you read his article you'd know that it's not nature manipulation unlike Dust release which combines earth with another nature type. ◘The Manga is for want of a better word "law" it's the mangakas work not the animators or what they feel like to add to his work. ◘Yes there are different translations but they're never so far off from each other that they become obscure or have two entirely different interpretations ◘ For the last time Gaara's sand manipulation is ENTIRELY different from the Third Tsuchikage's kekkei genkai.--Cerez365 (talk) 18:56, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

So to make it clear, from what we can say, sand has nothing to do with actual chakra nature, is it safe to say it is just some random power that Shukaku has.

Based on whats seen Sand jutsu are wind element techs but as its an old style, I doubt Kishi will elaborate on the inner workings of sand jutsu anymore unless asked in an interview.Please sign your posts.Umishiru (talk) 00:43, September 11, 2010 (UTC)

Link or Reference
Can I get a link or reference other than the manga chapters given in the article, that actually show me or talk about these chakra natures and their combinations? Because there are a couple of natures that i think were overlooked like sound, mist, gravity (used by pein), phasing (used by kimimaru's bloodline). PS. i dont think mist and boiling are the same thing. Dj q-pid (talk) 18:21, September 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * This is going to be a long day isn't it >_>

You probably don't read the manga which is why you're having this problem all of those you listed are just ninja skills and if you're referring to Kimimaro he had a Kekkei Genkai Your reference happy reading ^_^ --Cerez365 (talk) 19:04, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

What would happen if u mix a basic element with a created element
Notice how there are 11 created elements: Boil Blaze Lava Dust Dark Ice Swift Steel Wood Storm Crystal

But there are only 10 spots on the table

What would happen if an element such as water and a created element such as crystal, two elements that have nothin to do with eachother? Wouldnt that make another element? Since there are 11 created elements and only ten spots, then yes there has to be, also, i suggest that swift be the mix of wind and lightning and that steel be the mix of fire and wind, only theories though. And a question, what is iron sand? is that a mix of elements?

Crystal, Steel, Dark and Swift exist only in the anime and the movies (the first one in the anime, the other three in the movie), Iron Sand has never been called a chakra mix. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:12, September 17, 2010 (UTC)

Yin and Yang question
After the information given in ch.510 and some previous information can we say that genjutsu requires Yin chakra since its basis is imagination and spiritual energy and medical ninjutsu requires Yang chakra which is physical energy and vitality, or this is considered speculation? UsoppSpell (talk) 20:53, September 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Most likely, but we don't know the exact mechanism to make those statements. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:12, September 17, 2010 (UTC)

Speculation section?
Was the speculation section in the Advanced Natures simply removed? Was it deemed unnecessary? --GoDai (talk) 05:06, October 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * It was removed long ago, because it was deemed (I believe) that we shouldn't have a speculation section, it was an exception to the rule. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:44, October 25, 2010 (UTC)

Updating the Advanced Elemental Relationships Diagram
Hey! We have Crystal, Blaze, and Dust releases on the diagram with a little "?" to show that we're speculating, so should we update it to speculate that Explosion Release is Lightning+Wind and Scorch Release is Fire+Wind. First off both those seem totally plausible. Secondly, it was in the manga, so they're more "real" than like swift or dark release. Am I being crazy or is anyone else excited to finish off the diagram?
 * First of all, please sign your posts. Use either the fourth button from right to left in the bar that appears when you edit a page, or put in four tildes . I'm excited about finishing this too. We don't have no idea of what the new two natures could be. The three with the question mark are there because there is stuff suggesting it. Crystal was at first mistaken by actual Earth Release, and we saw the Tsuchikage using Earth Release before using Dust Release, so we had that to go on. Blaze was put with Fire and Lightning because those are Sasuke's natures, we have no idea on what it actually is, though I have a theory. Consensus seems to be Scorch being Fire and Wind, and the fire like appearance of her technique suggests that as well. On the Explosion, I wouldn't put as Lightning and Wind. Nothing about it says wind. Either Fire and Lightning over Blaze, because both blow up and the link, or Earth and Lightning, assuming the relation with Exploding Clay. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:43, December 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, thanks. I'm just pumped because Kishi introduced new elements. That stuff gets me going :). I don't know how to sign, but here goes my attempt. --Timeel39 (talk) 23:49, December 26, 2010 (UTC)

should scorch release be fire+lightning since it looks like a plasma ball, and blaze release is just itachis technique only controlled. So its safe to assume it could be another variation. And i would suggest putting blast release in lightning+wind. swift,dark,steel and blaze should prob one element combined with itself. reloader--24.1.217.145 (talk) 09:45, December 27, 2010 (UTC)

Well, assuming we can safely rule out Crystal, Dark, Swift, and Steel as non-canon and not "real" advanced nature types, that would mean there are now 9/10 of the basic advanced combinations (i.e., not counting stuff like fire/fire speculations). So there is really only 1 left to show up. Whenever one or two of the un-confirmed combinations are confirmed, it will make the logical conclusions for the remaining ones much easier. Likely, this will be done within like 10 chapters or so, when the remaining Resurrected characters display what it is they do, since one other one will likely have an advanced nature to make them seem "important". Anyways, I think this will be able to be finished soon. On a side-note, i really like the looks of the Scorch release, Dust release, and Storm release, I just hope the author can come up with some good uses for them, like how Wood and Ice and the non-canon Crystal all have more uses to them than the blatently apparent ones (like, omg lava burns, omg hot black fire burns) SkyFlicker (talk) 21:41, December 27, 2010 (UTC)

enton is still a little odd if you ask me, leaving the 8/10. Exactly 2 more which are the chubby Kiri and the other Kumo nin that both look like the ones in the movie. It is almost pretty obvious that those are the 2 missing

well, crystal release seems to me is a possible solution for earth + lightning. explosion idk, it also seems possible.since deidara used what is now confirmed as explosion release it's kinda confusing cause when sasuke negated his clay bombs with his lightning release it was considered earth release and earth is weak against lightning. But WHO KNOWS--Yukikoandthe (talk) 00:35, January 3, 2011 (UTC)