Talk:Tobi

'''NOTE: Please do not add theories on who Madara Uchiha is. Unless it is confirmed, it will not be put into articles. Narutopedia is not a Forum. If you would like to discuss your theories with people, go to a Naruto forum, search for one on Google.'''

Past Speculation
this section,i think,is a bit lcking.what about the theory that madara is danzo?the tobi is obito stuff should be kept but add the newer theory that madra might be danzo.76.235.61.246 (talk) 18:36, 4 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Key word: past. This is not the place to collect any and all current theories. ~SnapperTo 18:56, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes and do not post that Tobi is somebody it was proven already so give up. Why would Tobi tell Sasuke to kill all the Kage's ?

he is not Danzo, how do i now, if you see the episode when Tobi and Deidara are fighting the trhee tailed beast you can see that the skin color of his fits are alot more clreare than the skin of Danzo that is more darker or tan, i thoug for a moment that it could be posible that it was Shisui fits, but Ao stated with his byakugan that the only part of his shakra was in his eye and arm. sow it can be eder or the real body of madara or Obito since both have the same color of skin, its kinda funny to clear these with only the fits isnt it, but still i think that i will finally cleare everithyng once Tobi shows to Sasuke his sharingan.

Arrogant?
Guys, the translation used to base the "minion" part on was taken from a SleepyFans translation, which somehow doesn't enjoy much respect among scanlators. The translation found on MangaShare suggests that Madara called Pain a "subordinate". This is a factual claim, because he could order Pain around, but doesn't have the pejorative flavor of "minion". Dunno if this detail is important enough... Xfing (talk) 14:49, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Madara's powers?
If Madara was the previous Mizukage, he might have been very skilled with Water Release Ninjutsu. He's from the Uchiha Clan too, right? He must have known how to use Fire release: Great Fireball Technique. How come he does not have that on his page?
 * Because e dont speculate, so we'd rather put up jutsu's he been seen using, or stated using...--AlienGamer--Talk-- 09:29, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Remove
Can someone remove the "NOTE: Please do not add theories on who Madara Uchiha is. Unless it is confirmed, it will not be put into articles. Narutopedia is not a Forum. If you would like to discuss your theories with people, go to a Naruto forum, search for one on Google." because it is already proven in the latest manga he admit it that he is Madara Uchiha. Kyuubinaruto123 (talk) 07:27, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * That doesn't stop people from speculating...--AlienGamer--Talk-- 07:36, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh ok well if u can add that it was confirmed in the manga that Tobi is Madara Uchiha at the last line it would be great... or not. Kyuubinaruto123 (talk) 07:47, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It was confirmed as early as the Hunt for Uchiha Arc, when Madara revealed himself, and explained evrything....--AlienGamer--Talk-- 08:14, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Why does no-one believe who Madara Uchiha really is... Madara Uchiha. --Shum1x (talk) 09:07, 22 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Because people enjoy speculating...--AlienGamer--Talk-- 09:30, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Because he wears a mask, he claimed to be Tobi, why couldn't he claim to be someone else? That's why (I think, but that's why I did)Papayaking (talk) 20:12, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Attempt on the Mizukage (which one?)
Who was the Mizukage that Zabuza tried to kill, Yagura or Madara?? Kisame recognized Madara as the Mizukage, which means that Madara was the Mizukage up until Kisame left the village, shortly after him Zabuza left too. Still, when Zabuza was a kid the Mizukage was Yagura, he was the Fourth Mizukage, in other words the previous Mizukage before the Fifth. It is also stated that he was under some sort of Genjutsu. Bottom line: it appears that there were two Mizukages at the same timeline... Was Yagura being controlled by Madara thanks to his Sharingan? Can Madara really do that to a Kage(despite the fact that Madara could control the Nine Tails, and despite the fact that the Fourth had the Three Tails in him)???


 * We don't know who Zabuza tried to kill. I'd guess Yagura but there's no certainty, it could also be the current Mizukage. I would bet on Yagura being controlled by Madara, being a kage doesn't necessarily mean one can't be controlled and Madara might've had things set up in advance, possibly controlling him before he became kage or something. ZeroSD (talk) 10:45, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Maybe Madara used Genjutsu to fool Kisame!Memo$ (talk) 18:31, 31 August 2009 (UTC)


 * This isn't a forum. Maybe, maybe not. Untill its confirmed, it doesn't matter either way as it will not be put into the article...--AlienGamer--Talk (contribs)-- 18:34, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

I think maybe that Madara was the one who was using the 4th mizukage ,Yagura, because we know he cant be the 4th or 5th mizukages and we know that zabuza likely made his assassination attempt on the 4th mizukage because he was the one who made the graduation ceremony stop and the one that started the graduation ceremony was the 4th mizukage and maybe Kisame was helping Madara to control him or something Narutosagemaster (talk) 06:16, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

But still that doestn explian how did the three tailed was separated from Yagura thats one thing, did Madara was able to extract the tailed beast in a failed atempt and in weak state, now we do not alos now if Madara was the second or the third, most probably the third; I think that it was Madara who created the seven whcih would explain and support theory of Zabuza and Kisame nokwing him, now did Zabuza got agaisnt Madara for power of the village or did he wanted to kill Yagura because he new Madaras plans on killing him in the atempt of extraction of the tailed beast, Yagura also sims to be very young while the fith seems to be much older.

I think that what happened was, that ones Madara lost the battle agaisnt the first, he traveled to the village of the mist, their he became a ninja like Haku wich would explian the mask style, ones the second died he became th third using gentjutsu and steal remaing with his mask, th second created the exams, Madara created the sevens still using his mask only showing him to does who he trusted, the Yagura came and had the tailed beast inside wich was the first step to achive a complete form, Zabuza new about these plans and tried to kill Madara, then cage the roll to Yagura and did something similar as Sasori, tried to extract the sanbi, failed, killed Yagura, got alot more wickerd, needed help used Danzo or Obito body to entare Konoha, left the hidden mist, the fith was closed to Yagura sow asumed the roll of the mizukage.

Takuya Uzumaki october 30 2009.

I'm glad we have such precautionary rules in place that keep such horrible fanfic ideas like yours from being put on the pages in this site.Saimaroimaru (talk) 04:34, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Previous Rows
I'm not too sure, y it shouldn't be used, but its misleading if its under current isn't it? I mean he hates konoha since before the series started, and he was Mizukage before the series started as well.. It seems like he's still loyal to them, which we all know he isn't..--AlienGamer--Talk (contribs)-- 06:55, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * And ofcourse the Uchiha clan which he abandoned before the series started...--AlienGamer--Talk (contribs)-- 06:56, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you're right about things that happened before the series started. That should be cleared up. However, affiliation means more than being loyal to something. It can also indicate origin or association. In that respect, he is still, even at this point in the series, affiliated with Konohagakure, Kirigakure, and the Uchiha clan and one could argue that he's still a Mizukage, even if he isn't active any more. --ShounenSuki (talk 07:10, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Ya, but wasn't the "previous rows" added to prevent confusion, and constant editing ::::S?..--AlienGamer--Talk (contribs)-- 07:12, 1 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I agree wit AlienGamer....btw ShounenSuki did u ever get the time 2 make the icons?--Moiz1224 (talk) 07:14, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

As far as I know, the "previous" rows were a leftover from when the infoboxes were shared between wikis. They were never supposed to be used, although I do agree that they could serve a purpose for things from before the series started. However, the wiki is supposed to be relevant to any point within the series. E.g. if a character was affiliated with Konoha at the beginning of the series, but switched allegiance to another village (like Kabuto), we shouldn't say he was previously affiliated with Konoha, since the wiki should be as relevant to that period during the series, as to any other. --ShounenSuki (talk 10:57, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Then at the very least i'll change the things which were past...--AlienGamer--Talk (contribs)-- 10:59, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Btw, before we make these changes wiki wide, I think we should create a forum for it, and get all the input from the community...--AlienGamer--Talk (contribs)-- 11:01, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Good idea, we need to clear this matter up properly. --ShounenSuki (talk 12:37, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I had planned to destroy "Previous" rows in the new character infobox. Well, actually the focus was getting rid of constant edits to teams because of characters switching between teams like the 8-man and indivdiaul 3-man teams. I was thinking of leaving a special row for cases like Sasuke who did actually leave a team, but even that could be dropped. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Sep 1, 2009 @ 17:09 (UTC)
 * Wat about cases like Madara, who left Konoha & the Uchiha clan before the start of the series, and was also a mizukage, again probably before the series started...--AlienGamer--Talk (contribs)-- 17:12, September 1, 2009 (UTC)

First I'd again like to point out that Madara is still affiliated with the Uchiha clan, Konoha and Kiri, despite no longer being loyal to them. That said, I believe we could do completely without the "previous" rows, even in cases where something happened before the series started. --ShounenSuki (talk 07:58, September 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * I dont mind either way, but i think once thats done there will be a lot of...eh...wrong edits done. But it'd be nice if we had the opinion of the rest of the community..--AlienGamer--Talk (contribs)-- 08:03, September 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * I copied this discussion to Forum:"Previous" rows in infoboxes. I believe that is a better place to discuss this. --ShounenSuki (talk 12:29, September 10, 2009 (UTC)

Family Section
I think we shood put Sage of the Six Paths (ancestor) in the family section? wat do u think??--Moiz1224 (talk) 04:21, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah,maybe he's Madara's grandad or something like that24.161.127.236 (talk) 04:22, September 5, 2009 (UTC)


 * No, its not a clear family connection, and ontop of that, there's no indication at all that he's a decedanat of the Sage...--AlienGamer--Talk (contribs)-- 05:40, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

What about Hashirama and Madara being distant cousins? They are descendants of the two brothers. Yatanogarasu 23:53, September 4, 2009 (UTC)


 * Again, not a clear connection, and not a close relashionship either. Look as Sasuke & Madara. They're much closer, but it isn't listed under family, because its a distant relashionship...--AlienGamer--Talk (contribs)-- 08:09, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

Valley of the End picture
How about an anime picture of Madara's statue at the Valley of the End instead of the manga picture? Near the end of the Sasuke retrieval arc there are plenty of clear pictures with his statue. - MadaraU (talk) 07:03, September 12, 2009 (UTC)

Madara's Mangekyo Symbol
Hi, just wanting to contribute with something.

From what I know, Madara's own Mangekyo prior to becoming eternal with his brother's is a symbol from Tibet, their version of Yin Yang.

Maybe add that to the Trivia?

MilPassaros (talk) 12:51, September 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Could you clarify that? I didn't know Tibet had their own Yin-Yang symbol. --ShounenSuki (talk 13:48, September 24, 2009 (UTC)

Madara's jutsu
I think we should puta Fire into Madara's Jutsu. He was Uchiha, so he have afiniltry to Katon Jutsu (sorry for my bad English, it's not my first language)
 * We only lists what they have used. Jacce | Talk 15:13, September 24, 2009 (UTC)

Ok, just thought of something..............Madara(Tobi) helped Itachi destroy the Uchiha Clan........So that Sasuke could gain power and a Sharingan..........And soon Itachi and Sasuke fought.........Itachi transplanted his Mangekyo Sharingan to Sasuke...........Then Itachi died, then Madara told Sasuke the real story of Itachi............The second Sasuke opened his eyes Madara almost got killed by black fire........Because maybe when Itachi was transplanting his Mangekyo to Sasuke's eye he set the Mangekyo too sensetive to Tobi's presence.............And thats how the story goes.............I just want to contribute, if you dont like it change my post.

Image Quality
The pic being currently used in Madara's background article is bluring and of bad quality, can we go back to the manga image or can someone upload and use a better version of the current one.Saimaroimaru (talk) 23:07, October 11, 2009 (UTC)
 * What image are you talking about exactly? - MadaraU (talk) 06:17, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

I think he is talking about the picture that shows him in his youth with the big fan and the konoha headband--Masgrande (talk) 05:35, October 14, 2009 (UTC)
 * Aha. Well we could replace that one with his youthful appearance picture from episode 130. - MadaraU (talk) 05:58, October 14, 2009 (UTC)

Logic tells us that...
If nothing happened to further weaken Madara since his battle with Hashirama, currently he is just as powerful as he was sixteen years ago during the Fox Attack on Konoha when he could use the Fox as a pet (Minato said that Madara used the Kyuubi in the attack). Why do I feel to point that out? One reason would be to point out that he may not be as powerless as he claims to be (of course even his statement that he is powerless can have multiple interpretations such as: he is powerless compared to how he was in his prime etc...). Another reason would be to point out that if the Fox were to not be sealed inside Naruto he could still use it as a pet ergo he can use any other Bijuu and probably that is how he will probably make his war. Of course the last part was the stuff of forum, but I could not help myself:) In the end I think that we should draw what we can out of this and put something in the abilities section along the lines of: In truth he may not be as powerless as he claims to be, because... Tell me if I have approval for this. - MadaraU (talk) 06:10, October 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * But that's not based on anything. He might be stronger than he says he is and he might have lied about Itachi's past. There's no reason to say he's lying other than it would be expected of a villain. (Incidentally, he is not as powerful as he was 16 years ago since he no longer has the demon fox to control.) ~SnapperTo 23:33, October 14, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah but he still has the ability to control it and therefore any other tailed beast (out of the ones which he already possesses). I merely brought it up as something to be put in the abilities section, but it's okay if it is not to be included yet in the article. - MadaraU (talk) 06:12, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

The tails beast were apparently all more controllable then Kyuubi which could only be controlled by sharingan, exemplefied by the fact I think they said The First Hokage had like four that he gave away to balance the world out.Anonymous


 * While is is likely that the Nine-Tails is the hardest Tailed Beast to control, it was capable of being controlled by other means, such as the First Hokage's technique. --Enoki911 (talk) 03:48, December 17, 2009 (UTC)Enoki911

Wind release.
This is simply a doubt but Uchiha Madara uses a fan which implies he can use wind doesn't it? Probably we should wait until it is cleared up but it is quite certain from the depictions of his fight with the first hokage.
 * Not necessarily. It could serve as a shield, or perhaps he uses it with a Fire jutsu, you know, fanning the flames. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:10, October 15, 2009 (UTC)
 * That is the reason the fan is the Uchiha clan symbol- they work well with fire use. ZeroSD (talk) 10:58, October 15, 2009 (UTC)

Yeah that sounds logical... sorry to change subject rather abruptly but to me it seems that in this same battle Uchiha Madara uses also a scythe. Shouldn't we appoint that?Neji uchiha (talk) 04:52, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * "He was armed with a giant kusarigama war fan attached to it during the time of Konoha's founding". ~SnapperTo 05:05, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * That style of war fan isnt actually used in any sort of "fan" nature, it's used to block incoming projectiles.--SkyFlicker (talk) 21:55, November 3, 2009 (UTC)

Fire style
shouldnt, tobi/madara have listed the fire style since he is afterall an uchiha, all the uchiha have shown to be able to perform a fire style, and theres is alos that the fire style is the kekkei genkai if the uchiha, and he also has and is the first one to developed the mangenkyo sharingan sow he sould now how to use the amaterasu.
 * We only list what the character has used, and since Madara hasn't used fire or Amaterasu, we don't list it. Jacce | Talk 18:00, November 1, 2009 (UTC)
 * Is the drawing/painting like passage of episode 136 showing him using a Fire technique enough to list him as a Fire Release user? The one just after him getting the eternal Mangekyo. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:04, November 20, 2009 (UTC)

tobi/madara plan
what is tobi/madara for and y did he told sasuke

mizukage
madara should be the 3 because he was at the Konohagakure founding.so he couldn't be the first mizukage.plus it was mant years that the uchiha say no to madara plan and fought the first hokage. so he cant be the 2 mizukage.kisamne stated thathe know him as the mizukage. he gotta b e the 3 because the 4 and 5 must started so that explain everything.
 * This is not a forum, until the series tells us what number Madara had, it remains unknown. Jacce | Talk 07:07, November 4, 2009 (UTC)

New Demension
Can someone put up an image of the demension that Madara sent Karin and sasuke to. because I think that would be really good to add to the page. Narutosagemaster (talk) 03:52, November 5, 2009 (UTC)

New Picture
There is a great picture of Mandra sitting on his statue in the Valley of the End, with a clear short of his entire upper body, including his shiringan (which the current background picture doesn't have) from a short 2 second clip from NARUTO SHIPPUDEN EPISODE 134. Could we use that picture instead of the current one as a background picture, since it shows A) more of Madara's body, B) is in a dead-on direct view, C) shows his shiringan AND mask, and D) shows his statue is one high quality picture. For some reason I am unable to add the picture myself.

Appearance
please add the Appearance part cuz we don't have it

How is madara gonna seal the 8 and 9 tailed beasts
Well I know hes going to try to use sasuke to use the demonc statue thing but how is he gonna seal it by himself I mean it takes 3 days for like 10 or so akatsuki members to seal a tailed beast and since the akatsuki are s-class missing-nin they usually have huge reserves of chakra how is madara possibly going to do it by himself I know hes like 200-300 years old and must have a huge ammount of chakra but I dont know how he will pull it off and if he tries to it would take forever for it to be sealed completely? Ughh my head hurts..
 * This kind of topic is better of on a forum. The talk pages are for article-related conversations only.
 * Also, Madara is 100-years-old at most and there are most likely plenty of high-level shinobi willing to help him. --ShounenSuki (talk 20:56, November 29, 2009 (UTC)

How about the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path? I know only Pain can summon this Statue to seal the bijuu Even if he has other ways how can he retrieve the other bijuu if he cannot summon the statue??? -joboyaltar--121.54.92.57 (talk) 05:46, December 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * He, Kisame and Zetsu tried to seal the eight tails by themselves, so Madara seams to know where it is. Jacce | Talk 07:55, December 25, 2009 (UTC)

But they did that before Nagato died... -joboyaltar--121.54.92.57 (talk) 05:05, December 26, 2009 (UTC)

This trivia part has no place in Madara's article
Tobi is the only "villain" with a sense of humor. Besides the fact that it is pointless... he is not the only villain with a sense of humor. Orochimaru at least had a lot of sense of humor (even if it was a bit twisted) and Hidan as well. Besides it is a forced sensed of humor etc. This trivia part should be removed - MadaraU (talk) 15:52, December 4, 2009 (UTC)

THE Appearance PART....
people please add the Appearance part because there isn't any in madara's page.--94.183.156.236 (talk) 11:11, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

Madara has the habit of overestimating people
I think you should put that in the trivia section heres some examples

1. Over-estimating Taka beleiving they could get the 8 tails Failed

2. Over-estimating Sasuke beleiving he could beat the Kages Failed

3. Over-estimating Kisame thinking he could get the 8 tails Failed (ended up with Kisame getting Killed by Raikage and Killer Bee)

I think you should put that in the trivia section. --TheBlueBlur (talk) 23:10, December 8, 2009 (UTC)


 * The only person he is overestimating is Sasuke, really, since he never seems to have expected Jūgo, Suigetsu, and Karin to be able to defeat Killer B. Also, it does not look like he actually expected Sasuke to defeat the Five Kage. Killer B faced a humiliating defeat against Kisame. Madara did not underestimate Kisame, who did exactly as he was ordered and then some. Madara never expected Kisame to be able to defeat both the Raikage and Killer B.
 * So that brings those three examples down to one true example of Madara underestimating someone. --ShounenSuki (talk 23:22, December 8, 2009 (UTC)

Amateratsu
He can use Amaturatsu, we see him use it when stopping Konoha from getting to Sasuke and Itachi's location. The leaves blow through the wind in the silent night ~Myself (talk) 00:35, December 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * That was Itachi's leftovers, not Madara's doing ~SnapperTo 03:55, December 9, 2009 (UTC)

Regeneration?
Well since it is Friday in the wiki's time, I don't think this counts as a spoiler anymore. At the beginning of Chapter 475, Madara loses his arm due to cell eating bugs from Torune. Yet, near the ending of the chapter, .....is my eyes playing tricks on me or does he appear to have both arms? It is hard to tell because of the Akatsuki cloak, but it appears he has both arms. --Juubi no Ryuu (talk) 05:04, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

Most likely, yes. He did get hit with Amaterasu and admitted that it should have killed him (yet he appears just fine) on that note, why does it say he only has been hit with a single attack in all his screentime? Sasuke's Amaterasu hit him. Suigetsu hit him as well.

It seemed to me that he was still missing the arm...I could see his sleeve, but no hand. --Enoki911 (talk) 05:23, December 15, 2009 (UTC)Enoki911

Teleportation
It was mentioned by Shino in either chapter 395 or 396 that Madara hadn't had the power of teleportation, but the power to control the space time continuum. Here's the page (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/395/09/) and here's Kakashi's analyzation of the technique (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/395/10/) I think the title of his space technique in the abilities section should be changed... --FlamingDogs17 (talk) 02:39, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * That is what we call a mistranslation. Shino doesn't say teleportation, he says Body Flicker Technique. Teleportation is the instant movement of an object from point A to point B, without traversing the points between them. This is exactly what Madara seems to do.
 * He uses a space-time ninjutsu to do it, yes, but that is mentioned in the article. --ShounenSuki (talk 09:07, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Antagonist
The introductory paragraph says that Madara is reponsible for the Nine-Tailed Fox Attack and for the Uchiha clan massacre. I don't think that this should be there. There is still the possiblity, however small, that Madara is telling the truth, and the Nine-Tailed Fox's attack on Konoha was a natural disaster. As for the Uchiha clan massacre, even though he participated in it, he wasn't really responsible for it, as it was (probably) the elder's idea. --Enoki911 (talk) 03:45, December 17, 2009 (UTC)Enoki911


 * Jiraiya, Itachi, and Minato have all blamed him. 3 > 1. ~SnapperTo 03:52, December 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * That is true, and I will concede that he is probably responsible. However, I still believe that he is not responsible for the Uchiha clan massacre. --Enoki911 (talk) 04:09, December 17, 2009 (UTC)Enoki911
 * Don't Itachi, Danzō, and Madara himself claim he was at least partly responsible for the massacre? --ShounenSuki (talk 08:40, December 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * The latest fanbook confirms that he fought Minato during the 9-tails attack.--Masgrande (talk) 12:03, December 17, 2009 (UTC)

Partly responsible, perhaps, as he was involved. However, it was not his plot, so I don't think that it should be included under the "responsible for" part of the paragraph. Also, when did Danzo say that Madara was responsible? --76.233.199.1 (talk) 07:43, December 18, 2009 (UTC)Enoki911

Above paragraph mine, forgot that I logged out. --Enoki911 (talk) 07:44, December 18, 2009 (UTC)Enoki911

Trivia
"Madara is the fourth person in Naruto Shippūden to loose an arm; the first being Deidara, then Jiraya, then the Fourth Raikage being the third."

One, other than this saying Naruto: Shippuden which normally refers to the anime, this Trivia point is somewhat false as there has been other people who have lost their arms in the total series, Inari's father in the manga had his arms cut off, Orochimaru lost an arm fighting Naruto (though he then just shed his body...) there was another person in that list I am sure of....can't remember who though. Meh. --Juubi no Ryuu (talk) 23:57, December 18, 2009 (UTC)

Wait, Madara lost an arm? Cood any1 tell me wat chapter this was?--Moiz1224 (talk) 07:57, December 25, 2009 (UTC) Nvm i found the chapter...it was 475--Moiz1224 (talk) 08:02, December 25, 2009 (UTC)