Talk:Sage Mode/Archive 6

Kabuto's sage mode
As some might know, I translated Kabuto's words about Jugo's clan and the sage transformation some time ago. In chapter 579, Kabuto says "Immediately, Orochimaru-sama tried to gain that power... but... he did not yet have the body to withstand it... So... just like me, not even he could attain the perfect sage method!". Could someone please provide the VIZ translation of that part? • Seelentau 愛 議 12:28, April 22, 2016 (UTC)
 * Just curious, why asking?--Elve Talk Page 19:04, April 22, 2016 (UTC)
 * Because the possibility exists that a) Orochimaru could use an imperfect Sage Mode and/or b) Kabuto's Sage Mode isn't perfect. Depending on the translation. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:47, April 22, 2016 (UTC)

http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=707977 Check this out, it claims it covers up to chapter 613 QuakingStar (talk) 23:50, April 22, 2016 (UTC)

Viz: "He finally tracked down the source of the power... ...And that was the Ryuchi Cave. Lord Orochimaru immediately tried to acquire that power... But... He didn't yet possess a body that could tolerate it... That's why... He couldn't become the perfect sage that I have become!"--BeyondRed (talk) 00:56, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * Seel's translation is quite different I see.--Elve Talk Page 08:46, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm asking because to me, the Japanese sentence makes it sound as if they were both not able to attain a perfect sage mode... Imma ask OD about it~ • Seelentau 愛 議 12:07, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * If your translation is correct, then it indeed sounds like it that either Orochimaru can use Sage Mode but not perfect or that Kabuto's too is imperfect. But doesn't Kabuto brag on later how he is a perfect/true Sage?--Elve Talk Page 12:50, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * Dunno about that. What I know is that OD translates it the same as me: "He's just like how I am now; he's still unable to attain the means to be a perfect (/complete) sennin.". Do you want me to explain the Japanese sentence/my problem with it? • Seelentau 愛 議 20:20, April 23, 2016 (UTC)

So what do you suggest?--Elve Talk Page 22:01, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * Moving Kabuto's sage mode to the imperfect section. • Seelentau 愛 議 22:10, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well if you are right, then it's not surprising. It wouldn't make sense for it to be perfect. Since he has Jugo's powers and the intake of natural energy is constant, he would have to keep perfect balance of physical and spiritual energies with present amount of natural energy at all times. Naruto let's say can choose how much natural energy to absorb and fit it perfectly with his chakra. But when Kabuto's physical and spiritual energies go down from exhaustion let's say, the natural energy keeps coming, which means there's imbalance. Likewise, even if his chakra doesn't go down and he is freshly woken up, as more natural energy keeps coming, in order for the balance to be perfect, he would have to continuously mold more and more chakra adequate to the ever incoming natural energy, sounds impossible. But that's just my take on it. What about Orochimaru though?--Elve Talk Page 22:45, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * What about him? He still doesn't have Sageification. He ain't got no bodiiii • Seelentau 愛 議 22:55, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * How come his tattoos contain his senjutsu chakra then? Not to mention the tidbit about having been bitten by white snake sage and surviving, being worthy to be taught senjutsu. Also if your translation is correct, it says that Orochimaru indeed is a Sage, albeit not a perfect one. Also it says he didn't then *yet* have fitting body, implying he has come to possess one eventually.--Elve Talk Page 23:03, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * Because, for the thousandth time, Senjutsu chakra doesn't equal Sage Mode. And he never got bitten by the Hakuja Sennin. And my translation says that Oro didn't have the body, right? That's why he couldn't become a perfect sage. Or whatever. I'm too tired to discuss this with you, man^^ • Seelentau 愛 議 23:10, April 23, 2016 (UTC)

Kabuto's wording may be strange, but the idea that he's an imperfect sage doesn't totally add up. The panels in question portray him boasting about his power, so it would be pretty strange for him to pridefully announce how imperfect he is, especially when he later goes on to say he's the closest being to the Six Paths. Don't suppose the databook has anything to contribute on this matter?--BeyondRed (talk) 01:15, April 24, 2016 (UTC)

What about this Seel? *The Power of the White Snake is conferred by the White Snake Sage of Ryūchi Cave, by biting a person and injecting them with its natural energy. Those who survive are deemed worthy of being taught Sage Mode* Can you provide proof that Senjutsu chakra doesn't equal Sage Mode? To my understanding, Sage Mode is a state that comes to be when one balances the 3 energies (physical, spiritual, natural) to form Senjutsu chakra. Once Senjutsu chakra is in one's body, the said body is empowered by it and enters the said state called Sage Mode. Unless you have proof that one can have Senjutsu chakra in his/her body without the effects being Sage Mode/Sage Transformation/Six Paths Sage Mode, then it's bullshit my brother :) Also this is just my understanding of language, but if I were to say: *I didn't have a girlfriend when I was 12* all it would do is inform us that I had no girlfriend at that age.... but if I were to say: *I didn't yet have a girlfriend when I was 12* then it would let us know that I have eventually gotten one at a later time. But I may be wrong, my language skills are certainly inferior to yours, oh great one!--Elve Talk Page 09:03, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * Listen, all I can do is repeat the manga and the manga said that Orochimaru did not gain access to Sage Mode because he didn't have the body. He obviously knows how to use natural energy and senjutsu chakra, because he's using those for his cursed seals. Sasuke is a user of senjutsu chakra but not of the Sage Mode, right?
 * About the "yet", I don't know. It implies that he eventually got a body, but then again, Orochimaru never used Sage Mode and he he even went as far as creating a makeshift mode in the Cursed Seal Transformation. So whatever Kishimoto's logic here is, all we can do is follow it. • Seelentau 愛 議 10:41, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * Sasuke's use of Senjutsu chakra was through his tattoo, which is a merger of Orochimaru's Senjutsu chakra and Jugo's enzyme responsible for Sage Transformation. Sasuke wasn't an user of Sage Mode probably because of the same reason as Orochimaru and Jugo aren't, the 3 energies weren't balanced perfectly most likely. If I remember correctly, the manga said that too little natural energy, Senjutsu chakra doesn't get produced... too much and petrification occurs Then there's Jiraiya whose wasn't completely balanced, yet he did have imperfect Sage Mode. But shouldn't in that case Orochimaru have an imperfect Sage Mode similar to Jiraiya? His balance is apparently enough for Senjutsu chakra to be produced but not too much natural energy for petrification, so wouldn't he fall in Jiraiya's range of imperfect Sage Mode? Unless Orochimaru has Sage Transformation, but he hasn't ever displayed that either to our knowledge.--Elve Talk Page 11:32, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * Axactly. If you look closely, the black skin around a Senninka user's eyes are similar to Orochimaru's... but whatever, let's just move Kabuto's Sage Mode into the imperfect section. But then again, if he's using Senninka, why is it even a Sage Mode? Where's the exact difference? All this stuff was never answere :/ • Seelentau 愛 議 11:36, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * Only as long as you are absolutely certain, then let's move. Senninka is a result of Jugo bodily fluid's reaction to Senjutsu chakra.

In my opinion, Jugo Clan's madness is synonymous to petrification in others. Jugo not mad = volume of natural energy is fine... Jugo mad = too much natural energy compared to his physical and spiritual energies. Sage Mode is this: 'perfect balance of physical, spiritual and natural energies' or you could say perfectly balanced Senjutsu chakra as well (Naruto). Imperfect Sage Mode is this: 'little bit more natural energy than physical and spiritual energies, but not too much for petrification to occur' (Jiraiya)

Both Jugo and Kabuto have Senninka but only Kabuto also has Sage Mode, but as you point out, the dialogue suggest imperfect. The reason for that is that even though Jugo's volume/balance of the 3 energies is enough for Senjutsu chakra to be produced, it's not good enough even for imperfect Sage Mode to occur, while Kabuto's might be almost balanced, with maybe just little too much natural energy and not enough physical and spiritual energies, just like in Jiraiya's case.--Elve Talk Page 12:12, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * What if you go insane when you've too much/little spiritual energy and turn to stone when you've too much/little physical energy? • Seelentau 愛 議 12:31, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * That's some very nice headcanon. But in the training Naruto started to turn to stone with too much natural energy, then got hit with magical stick which pushed it out of his body. Jugo's madness was also attributed to natural energy. According to databook, Jugo has Yang Release which consists of chakra that has in it mostly physical energy and little spiritual energy. In that case, if your headcanon were right, then madness would be a result of too much physical energy, more than spiritual and/or natural. But Naruto also is a 'Yang type' and he was getting stoned, not insane.--Elve Talk Page 12:41, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * I think what Kabuto used was actually an SM, not ST, but at least with the add of Jugo's DNA, so Kabuto could constantly absorb natural energy and keep his SM permanently active. And Jugo just compared his ST ability to Kabuto's SM, he didn't really know the difference, yet ST was the ability he was particulary familiar with, unlike SM. Kabuto said that he didn't get a CS (which he called an imperfect copy of the true power), neither he used Jugo's DNA to completely replicate this abililty in his own body, but he travelled to the Ryuchi Cave to learn the "true", perfected version of the power, i.e. the SM. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 12:48, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * Nah, Jugo in the chapter was written in a way that he perfectly knew what was going on and what he was talking about. When Suigetsu said that Kabuto looks weird, Jugo commented that he himself and Kabuto are the same and it's called Senninka. When Orochimaru sucked out his chakra from Kabuto and the snake transformation disappeared, Jugo commented that Orochimaru also deactivated Senninka.--Elve Talk Page 12:51, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * Like I already said, there's no doubt Jugo was familiar with the mechanics of the ST, his own ability. But there's no evidence he could distinguish between it and the SM, especially considering Kabuto's appearance, which looked very confusing back then. ST is kinda natural ability of Jugo's clan, their "natural" version of SM, so to speak, albeit with significant drawbacks. Kabuto (and Oro) found a true source of this power, i.e. Ryuchi Cave, where they could learn "stablised" version of Jugo's ability, the SM, although only Kabuto perfectly succeeded in this. If Kabuto's senjutsu was purely a ST, there was no need for him to travel into Ryuchi Cave and learn SM from the Snake Sage cause he already had what was necessary (i.e. Jugo's DNA) for replicating ST in his own body. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 13:10, April 24, 2016 (UTC)

Sage Mode is superior to just Sage Transformation alone, Kabuto clearly has both. Sage Transformation is Senjutsu powered mutation. Sage Mode has to be learned as it's achieved when Senjutsu chakra is balanced and when it perfectly is, besides the eyes and pigment, there is no physical alternation. Also he learned Sage Techniques at Ryuchi Cave, like Sage Art: Inorganic Reincarnation and Sage Art: White Rage Technique.--Elve Talk Page 13:29, April 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * Databook: "In Jugo's village, the state after invoking the power of Senjutsu is referred to as "Sage Transformation"." That wording does seem like it could be implying Sage Transformation is just a region-specific term for any senjutsu-empowered state, be it Jugo's mutations or proper Sage Mode. But of course there's no way to know for sure if that's what it meant until we (hopefully) get more information on Jugo and his clan.--BeyondRed (talk) 20:55, April 24, 2016 (UTC)

Mitsuki uses Sage Transformation
We dun goofed. Mitsuki does not have sennin mode (仙人モード), he has sennin transformation (仙人化). --DC52 (talk) 09:48, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * And that's why it's best to wait for the raws. So Mitsuki either has genes from Jugo's Clan or Orochimaru applied one of his Cursed Seals/Curse Marks on him.--Elve Talk Page 10:06, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, I should've known that mangastream can't be trusted. They can't even differ between 仙人モード and 仙人化, holy shit. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:47, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * Anyone going to make changes?--Elve Talk Page 12:51, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm ready to make changes, bur here's quick question: is it enough that we add Mitsuki as user in Sage Transformation-info box and image of Mitsuki's Sage Transformation? --JouXIII (talk) 13:10, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * Go for it.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 13:22, April 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * Done. --JouXIII (talk) 13:33, April 23, 2016 (UTC)

Mitsuki
In first boruto volume, Mitsuki uses sage mode. So, is it perfect?--Sharingan91 (talk) 10:01, August 6, 2016 (UTC)
 * It was Sage Transformation, not Sage Mode, dude. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 10:04, August 6, 2016 (UTC)
 * You read this (仙人モード) Sage Mode. He is like Kabuto.--Sharingan91 (talk) 10:11, August 6, 2016 (UTC)
 * Okay, it's something I missed, but still I see no reason to describe Mitsuki's SM as perfect since his degree of perfection isn't mentioned. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 10:22, August 6, 2016 (UTC)
 * Its transformation is different from Kabuto.--Sharingan91 (talk) 10:27, August 6, 2016 (UTC)

He has Sage Mode through means of Sage Transformation, what's hard to understand?--Elve Talk Page 12:54, August 6, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes Mitsuki can use Sage Mode, but saying he used that in the manga with Sage Transformation is full blown speculation. It's a possibility he did, not a fact he did. --Sarada Uzumaki (talk) 02:26, August 7, 2016 (UTC)
 * And how, functionally, would a person who has Sage Transformation, enter Sage Mode without the influence of Sage Transformation? ST passively absorbs natural energy. How can one possibly enter Sage Mode, which requires absorbing natural energy, when ST passively does just that? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:59, August 7, 2016 (UTC)
 * This isn't about the functionality of the 2 techniques, this is about proof that he had acquired Sage Mode by the events of Naruto Gaiden: The Road Illuminated by the Full Moon. If he acquired Sage Mode after, all the information we are currently recording on the article is only relevant to Sage Transformation. --Sarada Uzumaki (talk) 08:12, August 7, 2016 (UTC)
 * Those profiles are clearly about skills and abilities they had by the time the events of the movie began. Sarada with Sharingan, Boruto being listed with nature transformation jutsu that matches the ones the said he could use, even before being given the Kote. It makes zero sense for these profiles to be about future stuff. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 11:17, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

It's very simple, Jugo Clan powers are:
 * body passively absorbs natural energy on its own
 * a fluid in such a body reacts to Senjutsu chakra and the result is going mutant (Sage Transformation)
 * Sage Mode happens when in Senjutsu chakra, natural/spiritual/physical energies are perfectly balanced, Imperfect Sage Mode is still possible, when the 3 energies are just almost close to balanced, like in Jiraiya and Kabuto's cases.
 * Kabuto is the same case as Mitsuki, he has Jugo Clan's powers, passively absorbing natural energy and fancy fluid which reacts to Senjutsu chakra, resulting in mutation called Sage Transformation. The difference between Kabuto and Mitsuki is, that Kabuto couldn't balance natural/spiritual/physical energies perfectly, resulting in an Imperfect Sage Mode, while Mitsuki seemingly has mastery over balancing 3 energies and his Senjutsu chakra is completely balanced, hence his Sage Transformation equals Sage Mode and more.
 * I like to think that if Kabuto were to master Senjutsu completely, his full Sage Transformation/Sage Mode form would change into something more akin to Mitsuki's, which certainly looks... special and powerful.--Elve Talk Page 13:30, August 7, 2016 (UTC)
 * @Omnibender Naruto Gaiden: The Road Illuminated by the Full Moon takes place while Boruto is in the academy, not the beginning of the movie. So Mitsuki had a opportunity to learn Sage Mode in between the two events, aka everything we are recording about his Sage Mode currently is irrelevant if he hadn't obtained it yet hmm. There's no counter argument to that, not to mention we're also speculating that his Sage Mode is perfect and he learned Snake Sage Mode which looks nothing like Kabuto's. --Sarada Uzumaki (talk) 00:38, August 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * I kind of get what you mean, but still impossible to turn off passive absorption of natural energy and do it actively like Naruto does, no counter argument to that. His transformation involved ethereal snakes, I very much doubt his is a toad Sage Mode. The fact that bonus illustration shows Mitsuki exactly as he appeared in that special, when other stuff has clearly not happened yet is also there, shows that this is what he looks like transformed. By nature of having ST, that's going to influence his SM. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:41, August 8, 2016 (UTC)

Firstly, this states that he can only use Sage Mode doesn't mean that his transformation is in fact just Sage Mode, because it's obvious that there's at least some Sage Transformation in it, unless Orochimaru did something. So either Mitsuki can use both abilities, Orochimaru did something, or that they left out Sage Transformation or wrote Sage Mode by mistake.

Secondly, if Mitsuki's transformation is in fact Sage Transformation but classified as Sage Mode, it doesn't mean he achieved Sage Mode through means of Sage Transformation or whatever, because they are totally different things. Balancing the energies perfectly doesn't make him a Perfected Sage Mode user, what you're trying to say, is more like a Perfected Sage Transformation.

Thirdly, I don't think Mitsuki is stated to be a Perfected Sage Mode user at all, so I don't know why he's classified as one. -- Georgio722 (talk) 15:35, August 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * Come on... how come people still don't understand all this... Sage Transformation with all 3 energies balanced IS Sage Mode, for Sage Transformation is nothing more than Sage Mode or Imperfect Sage Mode with added bonus of mutation/shapeshifting ability.--Elve Talk Page 17:45, August 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not 100% certain, but I think what they're arguing is Mitsuki's version having the three energies balanced, like Naruto and Minato did, versus the energies not being perfectly balanced, like Jiraiya did. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:31, August 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, there might not be an official statement saying it's perfect, but there also is nothing saying that it's not perfect. Its perfection is based solely on Kabuto's having been imperfect and looking different from Mitsuki's.--Elve Talk Page 19:42, August 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * Of course Kabuto's Sage Mode/Sage Transformation would look different to Mitsuki's, because Sage Transformation gives the user unique body alterations. Plus, Kabuto has Orochimaru's DNA, so that makes him even more snake-like than what Mitsuki could achieve by just using Snake Sage Mode. -- Georgio722 (talk) 13:20, August 11, 2016 (UTC)
 * So you're saying, if Jugo balanced the energies perfectly, he turns into a Sage Mode user? Wouldn't it make more sense if Sage Mode and Sage Transformation are two separate things? Because no matter how perfect you balanced your energies, Sage Transformation would still have the mutation side effect, which is more than enough to distinguish between the two. Or are you saying that there would be no mutation after perfectly balancing the energies? Or in other words, you're classifying the excessive animal traits shown by Jiraiya as Sage Transformation, correct? -- Georgio722 (talk) 13:20, August 11, 2016 (UTC)
 * That's what I'm saying, yes. Sage Transformation user can use Sage Mode, as shown by Kabuto who had an imperfect one like Jiraiya or by Mitsuki, whose status is at least presumed to be perfectly balanced. Sage Mode is an enhanced physical state achieved by Senjutsu chakra, which is a merger and has to be a perfect or close to perfect balance of physical, spiritual and natural energies. Just because their bodies react to Senjutsu chakra by mutating (Sage Transformation) doesn't mean that when balanced, the Senjutsu chakra doesn't grant Sage Mode. No, there still would be mutation for Sage Transformation user who has achieved level of perfect Sage Mode and no, Jiraiya did imperfect Sage Mode no Sage Transformation.--Elve  Talk Page 14:59, August 11, 2016 (UTC)
 * So according to you, Sage Transformation is basically Sage Mode, because they use the same kind of energy. Just because they both use Natural Energy doesn't mean they are the same. Are you saying that all Tsuchigumo Style: Forbidden Life Technique Release: Creation of Heaven and Earth users are considered Sage Mode users too, since the jutsu utilises Natural Energy?


 * Plus, the 2 defining characteristics of a Sage Mode user, is the ability to see Natural Energy, and the ability to utilise Natural Energy to extend the range of their awareness and attacks. Since Sage Transformation doesn't have these characteristics, it's not possible for it to turn into Sage Mode, although one could utilise both of them together.


 * Jiraiya is an Imperfected Sage Mode, Kabuto is an Imperfected Sage Mode plus Sage Transformation, and Mitsuki is possibly just Sage Transformation. Just because Mitsuki can manifest ethereal Snakes doesn't mean it's Snake Sage Mode, it could very well be just him shaping his chakra. Plus, if it really is Snake Sage Mode, don't you think his eyes would look like a snake's? And don't say things like it could be how a Perfected Snake Sage Mode would look like, because a Perfected Toad Sage Mode still has toad eyes, so why would Snake Sage Mode be different? -- Georgio722 (talk) 04:51, August 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * So, what should be perfect sage mode of snake? Only eyes snake and colored marks around the eyes, similar toad and hashirama??? Lol but this is Orochimaru!!! XD And Orochimaru doesn't use sage mode u.u! So Mitsuki is perfect sage mode ;-) Mitsuki sage mode is different of Kabuto and Kabuto isn't perfect.Sharingan91 (talk) 05:19, August 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * That's actually what I think it would look similar to, but Orochimaru's eyes are from Snake genes instead of Snake Sage Mode. Plus, even though he can't use Snake Sage Mode, he still has knowledge of it, so it's not surprising that he would look like he's in Snake Sage Mode, given the fact that he changes his appearance based on snakes. Kabuto has Snake eyes whereas Mitsuki doesn't, so it's obvious that they are different transformations. Plus, Sage Transformation gives the user unique transformations anyway. -- Georgio722 (talk) 01:29, August 17, 2016 (UTC)
 * No, Sage Transformation isn't Sage Mode by default, but it can turn into Sage Mode, when the Senjutsu chakra is balanced. Tsuchigumo something is not canon by the way. Mitsuki has been stated to use both Sage Transformation and Sage Mode, argue that with Kishi/new guy. Also there is no such thing as 'Snake Sage Mode'--Elve Talk Page 03:51, August 17, 2016 (UTC)


 * @Georgio722, Not all snakes have vertical pupils. Some snakes have round pupils. There is a false belief that snake with vertical pupils is poisonous (evil as Orochimaru and Kabuto) and snake with round pupils is harmless (as Mitsuki). Even Mitsuki has snake eyes. u.u --Sharingan91 (talk) 06:32, August 17, 2016 (UTC)
 * I didn't say it is by default, and don't you mean it turns into a Perfected Sage Mode after balancing the energy? I know the Tsuchigumo Style: Forbidden Life Technique Release: Creation of Heaven and Earth is not canon, but it's somewhat relevant in this context. I know it's been stated that Mitsuki uses Sage Mode, but it's only been stated once if I'm correct, so there's a possibility that it could be a mistake, because they did not mention Sage Transformation even though it's stated that he uses it in the manga. Also, there is Snake Sage Mode, Kabuto learnt it from Ryuchi Cave remember?


 * I guess, but the markings around his eyes still looks different to snake eyes though. Plus, his transformation looks more similar to Sage Transformation than to Sage Mode, so it's only natural to consider it Sage Transformation. -- Georgio722 (talk) 09:24, August 20, 2016 (UTC)


 * Senjutsu, Sage Mode & Sage Transformtion are three different Things with a one-way connection.

- Senjutsu is created, if you are able to absorb natural energy and combine it with your chakra. Orochimaru is able to do so BUT his vessel couldn't take it to the next step..

- Which is the Sage Mode, that can be learned by 'anyone' whos Body is strong enough. Through activly absorbing natural energy and balancing it creates a change in form, depending on how balanced your energies are it can either be unperfect (Jiraiya) or perfect (Naruto).

- And the Sage Transformation occurs, if you possess Jugo's Clan Kekkei Genkai. Passivly absorbing natural energy causes the mutation, which is boosting ones abilities with Senjutsu. There is no other way of achieving this form.

BUT if you are able to use the passivly absorbtion (that causes the mutation) and balance it with your energy, you create Sage Mode. Kabuto is a example of that. Whether its unperfect or perfect cant be determined since his Body changes when entering the mode.--Keeptfighting (talk) 21:03, September 17, 2016 (UTC)

Perfect Sage
Is there a reason the article differs between a sage and a perfect sage the way it does? There's no in-universe description of what makes a perfect sage perfect, the article just assumes a cut between "almost perfect energy balance" and "perfect energy balance", with the latter being called "perfect sage". However, according to Kabuto's words (I'll probably get to them later again), the actual cut should be between "can use senjutsu chakra" and "can activate sage transformation/mode". • Seelentau 愛 議 00:06, October 7, 2016 (UTC)
 * When Fukasaku trained Naruto, he said Jiraiya couldn't balance the energies perfectly, which is why he had his toad like appearance, and when Naruto managed to do it, he said just the eye markings were the mark of a true sage. The issue with this is that while it makes it easy for toad taught Sage Mode, the markings don't quite translate to snake taught. From what Fukasaku said, it would seem that little to no animal transformation means perfect balancing of the three energies. Other than the marks, Hashirama doesn't seem to have any animal-like transformation, so it seems pretty safe to say his is perfect. Your cut would put Naruto and Jiraiya in the same boat, when they're clearly not. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:43, October 7, 2016 (UTC)
 * I think I've mentioned this in a discussion years ago, but Fukasaku doesn't call Naruto a "true sage". • Seelentau 愛 議 01:09, October 7, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well he definitely singled out the eye marks as an indicator of perfectly balanced energies when Naruto did it, so it whatever he said, it's an important distinction. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:26, October 7, 2016 (UTC)
 * What he said is "The Sennin markings have sucessfully appeared. Naruto might be a sage that even surpasses Jiraiya." or something along those lines. He makes no distinction between Naruto's and Jiraiya's Sage Modes. What's more, the same eye markings appear during Jiraiya's transformation as well. The only time something like a distinction was made when (and here I get back to Kabuto's words) Kabuto talked about being a perfect sage and Orochimaru not being able to be that. This brings me to an apology: I actually misunderstood the sentence. Kabuto indeed calls himself a perfect sage, as opposed to Orochimaru. Hence why the actual cut should be between "can use senjutsu chakra" and "can activate sage transformation/mode". • Seelentau 愛 議 01:32, October 7, 2016 (UTC)
 * Alright, after a three hours long discussion about it with others, let me fully explain it: Kabuto's words mean something along the lines of "Not even Orochimaru had attained the requirements to be a perfect sage like me/as I am". My initial problem with the sentence was that I misunderstood what このボクのように modifies. This resulted in a translation which had Kabuto claim neither he nor Orochimaru were able to become perfect sages. This is wrong. Kabuto makes a clear distinction between him - a perfect sage - and Orochimaru - not a perfect sage.
 * Now, the second thing is that Kabuto actually implies that Orochimaru is a sage as well, just not a perfect sage. When I translated Kabuto's words for the first time, I stumbled over the meaning of 仕様, which means "method" or "means". I decided to simply translate it as it was without making any sense of it, but it turned out to be somewhat important for a more accurate translation than the official one. In this sentence, 仕様 is used as a suffix with the meaning of "-specification" or "-ready". So Kabuto literally talks about the "perfect-sage-specifications" that not even Orochimaru has. It is possible that Kabuto means "perfect specifications to become a sage", but the italicisation of the words "perfect sage" suggests that he indeed means "specifications to become a perfect sage". This would go in line with what he said earlier, about Orochimaru learning to use Senjutsu chakra but not having the right body to use Sage Mode/Transformation.
 * All in all, this confirms three things: 1) Kabuto is indeed a perfect sage, 2) Orochimaru is a sage, but not a perfect one 3) the distinction needs to be made between "can use senjutsu chakra" (a sage) and "can activate sage transformation/mode" (a perfect sage). I hope this clears it up. A more in-depth explanation can be read here. • Seelentau 愛 議 03:21, October 7, 2016 (UTC)

Oh my, who would have thought that we would be having so many back and forth 'fact' changing again and again because of complications with conveying real meanings in the original Japanese text. I just hope it really is correct this time around, correct for the last time.--Elve Talk Page 18:47, October 7, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, I asked multiple knowledgable people about it, even a Japanese (with whom I had a lengthy discussion in the linked site's chat... at 4 in the morning). • Seelentau 愛 議 18:52, October 8, 2016 (UTC)

Thank you. I've been trying to prove for so long that Kabuto has perfect sage mode. For some reason, everyone seemed to just assume he had imperfect sage mode because of the talk page when they didn't even fully read the talkpage.

Finally. Kabuto has perfect Sage Mode and so does Mitsuki but they also use Sage Transformation. Also, because of Kabuto's body modifications, he has Orochimaru's DNA which explains any physical changes he undergoes during Sage Mode. Best Regards, SuperJosh635 (talk) 22:02, October 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * We didn't assume he had imperfect sage mode, we were sure of it because I made a mistake in my translation. However, as long as you don't have in depth knowledge of Japanese, this is something you couldn't have known. So it was you who did not read or understand the talk page and the reasoning for why his sage mode was imperfect.
 * The revised translation proved that Kabuto's sage mode indeed was perfect, so you just happened to be correct. When you initially made your claim, however, you were wrong, because at that time, the revised translation didn't exist. • Seelentau 愛 議 22:07, October 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * Kabuto's snake form isn't becaues of Orochimaru' DNA btw, it appears to be his Sage Transformation, since when Orochimaru sucked out Senjutsu chakra and his own chakra from Kabuto, the snake form vanished, linking it to Senjutsu. The next time he appears, he has it again, so nothing with Orochimaru.--Elve Talk Page 04:10, October 9, 2016 (UTC)

Ok considering all that has been said here, my question: who is Jiraya then? ./Rage gtx (talk) 05:45, October 9, 2016 (UTC)
 * Jiraiya is, per Kabuto's words, a perfect sage. As I explained, the cut has to be made between "can use senjutsu chakra, but lacks the body" and "can senjutsu chakra and has the right body". But just now I was thinking that it hasn't been said that you need the right body for toad sage mode. So if we go by Kabuto's words, Jiraiya is a perfect sage, but if we consider the imperfect control over senjutsu chakra to be the toad equivalent to lacking the right body, then he's an imperfect sage (just like Orochimaru). But that would be speculation on our side, so... • Seelentau 愛 議 09:48, October 9, 2016 (UTC)
 * So we don't know anything then about what makes a perfect/imperfect Sage--Elve Talk Page 10:17, October 9, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, yes and no. First of all, the term "perfect sage" didn't exist when this wiki began using it. It was based on a mistranslation of Fukasaku's words, who, as I said above, never made a difference between Jiraiya and Naruto. He both called them sages and the eye markings those of a sage. Kabuto, however, used "perfect sage" to distance himself from Orochimaru, who wasn't able to use sage mode. Based on that, a perfect sage is someone who uses sage mode. That doesn't necessarily make Orochimaru an imperfect sage (or a sage at all). I think the best way to handle this is by removing the whole "perfect sage" term. There are requirements to attain sage mode and if you meet them, you are a sage. If not, you're not a sage. (On a side not, Mitsuki's sage mode wasn't called perfect, but that's another story) • Seelentau 愛 議 10:28, October 9, 2016 (UTC)
 * Orochimaru uses Senjutsu chakra, but isn't listed as a Sage in the databooks. Jugo uses Senjutsu chakra to achieve Sage Transformation, yet is listed as a Sage in the databook, so the question is what makes one a Sage I would say.--Elve Talk Page 12:34, October 9, 2016 (UTC)
 * You can't say 'you were wrong at that time' when it's obvious I was right all along. You made a translation even though there are many other translations on the internet that disagree with yours and that was taken as some sort of Gospel. To say 'when I initially made the claim, I was wrong' makes no sense - I was right all along, you just didn't see it.
 * My friend George translated it, he has a qualification in Japanese. --Best Regards, SuperJosh635 (talk) 15:23, October 9, 2016 (UTC)
 * This is going around in circles. Also, please do not try to claim credit for certain edits, given you were edit warring and flat-out ignoring the talkpage in favour of your own opinion. --Sajuuk 15:25, October 9, 2016 (UTC)
 * @Elve, exactly what I was thinkin: Orochimaru used senjutsu chakra, but is no sage, so it seems like there's no "imperfect sage", just "perfect sage" and "no sage, but can use senjutsu".
 * @SuperJosh, cool, then why didn't you provide any explanation like I did above, instead of simply reverting our edits again and again? Discussion > edit warring. • Seelentau 愛 議 15:54, October 9, 2016 (UTC)
 * Seelentau, what were Fukasaku's words when he was explaining the balancing of the three energies to Naruto? When we first learned Jiraiya couldn't balance them perfectly? Is there anything useful to this discussion there? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:14, October 9, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, it depends on what you see as useful. He just says that Jiraiya had no perfect command over it. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:22, October 9, 2016 (UTC)

What about this bit Seel? 'The Power of the White Snake is conferred by the White Snake Sage of Ryūchi Cave, by biting a person and injecting them with its natural energy. Those who survive are deemed worthy of being taught Sage Mode' it's apparently from 4th databook, can you please read the entire thing and what's the context?--Elve Talk Page 17:09, October 9, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's true (aside from the "Power of the White Snake" part). • Seelentau 愛 議 17:21, October 9, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, it's from power of white snake article, I think it either needs a rework or to be deleted. It's based on speculation, we have never been told what it meant, with possibly 4th databook actually explaining it, but are you saying that 'power of white snake' isn't mentioned with the rest?--Elve Talk Page 17:24, October 9, 2016 (UTC)
 * Correct. In the Ryuchido, the White Snake Sage gives natural energy to those who possess the right body, then they learn Sage Mode. Orochimaru did not possess the right body (presumably due to using Fushi Tensei before). The article also states that those, who don't survive the training, turn into snakes and are eaten by the Snake Sage. It doesn't mention Orochimaru's powers at all, but I have to admit that a connection sounds logically. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:38, October 9, 2016 (UTC)
 * Does the wording in the databook make it sound like the White Snake Sage biting somebody is the actual method it uses to grant somebody Sage Mode, or just that it uses that as a sort of initiation test to see if they're worthy of learning under it? If the former, that could explain the whole "Orochimaru's body wasn't strong enough" deal, and would also imply that said limitation is exclusive to the snake method of senjutsu.--BeyondRed (talk) 20:42, October 9, 2016 (UTC)
 * It bites them to inject marijuana natural energy. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:05, October 9, 2016 (UTC)

Well, it says those not worthy/weak turn into a snake and then get killed by the White Snake Sage, Orochimaru clearly survived the ordeal, implying his body WAS strong enough?... yet it wasn't... so it was strong enough to get infused with White Snake Sage's natural energy but not to handle Sage Mode properly... but that still implies Orochimaru is a Sage, since he survived snake sagehood ordeal and was probably also trained in some arts in there.--Elve Talk Page 04:22, October 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * What if he got an injection, his body was too weak, so he had to use Fushi Tensei? :D Speculation aside, we only know what was said by Kabuto: Orochimaru's body was too weak to use Sage Mode. That's all. We don't even know if he learned to use natural energy at the Ryuchido. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:51, October 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * When Sasuke restored Orochimaru from Anko's Cursed Seal of Heaven, and Orochimaru took back his chakra from Kabuto, wasn't it established that either of those were senjutsu chakra? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:47, October 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * No, Jugo just says that Kabuto released the Sage Transformation and took back his own chakra. Orochimaru's senjutsu chakra was in Anko's Juin. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:53, October 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * So isn't this what Elve brought up? Orochimaru being able to create senjutsu chakra would imply he was injected with natural energy by the White Snake Sage. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:15, October 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * I never denied that. The manga just says that Orochimaru wasn't able to use Sage Transformation. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:21, October 10, 2016 (UTC)

Gamamaru is different.
The problem with Gamamaru is he did not have Chakra at the time yet still used and even taught Ham and Hag Senjutsu which requires you to blend natural energy into your chakra. Therefore, his sage mode has to be something different. ShishiHeiwa (talk) 19:45, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
 * That part of the anime isn't canon, so there's no canon explanation to it. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:58, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily true (the first post). Although we do know that all the manking got their chakra from Hagoromo and thus didn't have it before him, there's no mention how the animals got their and if it was after the manking or before. So how can we be so sure that Gamamaru didn't have chakra? Ravenlot 27 (talk) 20:01, April 29, 2017 (UTC)
 * @Sel Gamamaru has only went Sage Mode via Anime. Therefore, since we use that to list him as a user we also have to take in the fact that he also didn't have Chakra.
 * @Raven it's stated Hag gave Chakra to everyone. It doesn't exactly specify humans. It also states Shinju is the source of Chakra. And it can't produce a new fruit until all Chakra is returned to it. It also only produces fruit once every thousand years. So Gama didn't get it from it. This means his Anime Sage Mode is different. If he's listed as a user, it should be noted he didn't have Chakra at the time since Hag didn't give out Chakra until after Kaguya's defeat. ShishiHeiwa (talk) 00:55, April 30, 2017 (UTC)
 * I know, but as I said, that whole background part is not canon and contradicts the established facts. In the manga, it was never said that animals had chakra pre-Hagoromo. • Seelentau 愛 議 01:14, April 30, 2017 (UTC)
 * ShishiHeiwa is asking it be mentioned somewhere and whether or not it's canon means nothing. We document all of it, no? To my knowledge, we have no mention of it anywhere.Munchvtec (talk) 03:44, April 30, 2017 (UTC)
 * I know, but what I'm saying is the following: If we mention something like "This guy used Sage Mode despite animals having no chakra at that time", we assume that it is canon that the animals had no chakra at that time. And that was never stated anywhere. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:23, April 30, 2017 (UTC)

In the anime, so and so.. That should work quite nicely. We do that all the time; unless there's an issue with it being done here?

Edit: Oh, you're saying we don't know if animals had it or not at the time? Beats me then... Munchvtec (talk) 11:34, April 30, 2017 (UTC)