Board Thread:Naruto Discussions/@comment-26403664-20160228225013/@comment-27660682-20160302224101

Gmanis41 wrote: Alright so this is my argument for why Hashirama and/or Madara both can together and individually defeat Itachi.

First Itachi was a genius. That is an indisputable fact. He was capable of seeing how Planetary Devastion worked just by observing it. However Madara and Hashirama are not stupid, they are insanely smart on their own right. Madara was able to enact plans that Itachi would call smart. He also has an extreme knowledge of ninjutsu and has the same ability of seeing how jutsu work just by looking at them with his sharingan. Hashirama is also very smart, he was able to find a way to save himself from the Evil Disturbance Waltz and he has a knowledge of ninjutsu. Itachi isn't going to outsmart Hashirama or Madara they are very intelligent on their right and have fought opponents on similar strength. Even it the Yata Mirror is unbreakable you still have giant golems and or giant samurai warriors beating down Itachi's susanoo. One swing of Madara's sword or one punch of Hashirama's golem would be strong enough to knock the susanoo a very large distance because of the transfer of kinetic energy. The shield may still hold but it's very likely that the susanoo itself is not strong enough to handle attacks of that magnitude. Being knocked whatever distance away the Susanoo could be broken do due the force of being knocked, even if it is not; Itachi would still be in trouble due to being inside of the susanoo. Now let's say the susanoo itself can withstand attacks from Hashirama and or Madara, both of those battle avatars are not slow. They aren't as fast as Naruto or the flying thunder god jutsu but they aren't immovable and it's nearly impossible to avoid attacks. It could be POSSIBLE to kill Itachi before he can even summon his susanoo or use his shield. Ignoring that, Itachi's sword still has to pierce Madara's susanoo and or Hashirama's wood golem to take effect, Itachi would have to get into range which leaves him wide open for attack and his sword is not going to pierce another battle avatar. Other battle avatars are able to take own the desructive capacities of tailed beast balls like they are no problem, the Sword of Totsuka wasn't credited with such an extreme destructive capability. Even if anything I just said doesn't apply both Hashirama and or Madara can last for a total of 24 hours, Itachi cannot last nearly that long, which has been established, Madara and or Hashirama would outlast Itachi.

Now with Itachi's genjutsu both Madara and Hashirama are capable of avoiding genjutsu. Hashirama has fought Uchiha his entire life and knows how to combat them, Madara is an uchiha (self-explanatory). Madara has a stronger sharingan than Sasuke who broke out of Itachi's Tsukoyomi, Madara is more than capable of breaking that genjutsu (Hashirama is debatable). Now Madara with Rinnegan has wood style, so does Hashirama. They have wood techniques capable of bypassing Susanoo defenses especially since they know exactly how the susanoo works. Wood style could pull Itachi out of his susanoo, use pollen, and restrain him and his susanoo.

Madara with his sharingan is still capable of outlasting Itachi and would albeit just have to rely on outlasting him because I don't know if he can pull Itachi out of his susanoo. While speed is not credited to any of the combatants. Itachi's biggest speed feat was keeping up with Sage Mode Kabuto and NCCM Naruto. Madara was able to react to A, Naruto in Kurama Mode, and able to completely surprise Naruto in sage mode and Sai and knock them to the ground while blind. Madara was also capable of dodging the Flying Thunder God Slash, albeit with senjutsu, never the less he did. Hashirama has proven his skill in kenjutsu and taijutsu. And being stronger than Madara implies he had to be able to compete with Madara in those fields and he is a sage mode user. Sage Mode users are fast. Perfect Sage Mode users are fast, that is a speed feat. First I want to commend Gmanis and Rachin for using very logical arguments and not disregarding the existence of the yats mirror.

That said, @Gmanis, well id first like to point out that itachi is not only intelligent, he has a high level of wisdom. Im saying this because I think the difference is relevant to the discussion. Techincallly, itachi figuring out the weakness of chibaku trnsi would be classified as wisdom simply because it was something he have never seen before and thus had no intel on, yet with no knowledge he deduced the weakness. Intelligence is your ability to acquire, understand,  and apply knowledge to gain new knowledge or problem solve. Intelligence is something that can be gained by everyone if they study hard enough. Wisdom however is more of an inborn thing, it's just your ability to instantly grasp things you shouldn't be able to. Another feat of wisdom by itachi is figuring out the weakness of the the shared vision of nagato's summons without prior knowledge. This all makes sense as itachi was said to have the wisdom of a hokage at age 7. But in addition to high wisdom, he has high intelligence, one of them being able to deduce that kabuto would go after sasuke when they were blinded by the white rage technique. He knew that kabuto would do so based on his personality and what he wants to achieve, and applied that knowledge and protected sasuke, to which kabuto gave him kudos for. The reason iim saying all of this is that it really gives itachi an edge in the mental stat area versus hashi and madara. Now normally ,madara uchiha I would consider to be one of the smartest characters in the series im how he plotted his revival and manipulated obito, but unfortunately Black Zetsu retconned all of that when he said akatsuki and stuff was all his idea, so I have to take it away from him. And then when it comes to battlefield field intelligence, ive never really been particularly impressed by madara innthat area. Now, dont get me wrong, madara isn't stupid by any means, but he doesn't fall in my top ten smartest naruto characters. Most of the feats he has presented during the war were simply overpowering people- dropping two meteors on the ninja alliance, overpowering 5 kages with 25 susanoo, overpowering a well thought out strategy by the 5 kages with his perfect susanoo, etc. Madara shows a lot of finesse,  he does widespread powerful attacks and he hardly wastes moves even in taijutsu,  is skilled with the sharing and is generally Op overall in strength. But most importantly, it should be noted that madara, and thisngoes for hashriama as well,  that one of the biggest asssets they have is an immense amount of battle experience,, which should not be confused with battle intelligence. Its not so much that itachi can't outsmart them, its that itachi has to outsmart not only them, but all the shinobi they have ever faced. Madara and hashirama have been fighting so long that they have seen almost every trick in the book and have lived to tell the tale so itachi would definitely be pushed to his limit in terms of being able to throw something at them they haven't seen something similar to before. However, when it comes to raw intelligence and wisdom, id have to say itachi beats them there, and though its not really comparable,  we do know itachi has gained a good chunk of experience too from being an anbu captain at 13.

Moving on to the next point, personally, I feel the yata mirror would technically be able to resist the momentum from any attack it blocks given the nature of how it works, considering it completely bounce back sasuke and his sword when he attacked it. I know that sasuke obviously doesn't have the momentum madara's sword would have, but still. And even under the assumption that the yata mirror can become 360 to block a 360 attack, I do believe itachi would be vulnerable to attacks that occur inside his susanoo/at his feet, which is a problem especially in the hashirama matcup who as we know can spawn roots anywhere. Also when it comes to totsuka blade, you have to understand that yes it cant split a mountain half, however due to being ethereal it can theoretically pierce through anything. So theoretically, it would just pierce through madara's susanoo and seal him and he is a pretty big target in susanoo without high mobility. For hashirama, its even worse because the wood golem doesn't protect him like susanoo does, he is simply standing on top of them. So he doesn't need to tosuka the wood golem just totusuka hashirama. And the totusuka blade has already been shown having massive range. On chapter 551 page 14, nagato is sealed from a distance so great nagato's head is about the same size as itachi and bee, and the tip of the blade is still off panel. So it can definitely reach madara and hashirama.

When it comes to genjustu, itachi is clearly superior. He can cast his demonic illusions without eye contact, his finger genjustu is an option, and then of course his prized tsyukyomi which does require eye contact,  and if it connects it will surely end hashirama,  madara is debatable but in another thread I explained why he theoretically wouldn't be able to break it. As Rachin said, I wouldn't refernce sasuke breaking tsyukyomi as that was clearly a nerfed version. Now when it comes to avoiding eye contact, hashriama likely will be able to do this to a great degree, but im not so convinced when he fought an uchiha that rarely uses genjustu and he doesn't have any genjustu breaking feats. But let's say he does, he is still no sage mode kabuto and because of the sharingan's tracking ability, its foolish to say he can avoid it in every situation. So tsyukyomi is one potential method that wins the fight for itachi, and i think itachi is smart enough to pull it off. Then you have to consider that itachi was said to be able to catch people in genjustu outside of the range of sensors. Im not saying hashirama cant break these genjustu, but the question is whether they will break it in time, as genjustu is nothing more than a distraction for the totsuka blade. Im not arguing he can solo hashriama or madara together, that's definitely too much. But one v 1 he definitely has a chance. And btw if they separate him from susanoo and restrain it, assuming he isnt killed immediately,  he can always deform it and then reform it. Of course itachi is on a timer due to pitiful stamina in comparison to hashriama and madara. And the second he can't maintain susanoo, things can do downhill pretty quickly if he cant catch them in tsyukyomi before they obliterate him. @Rachin @Tengen. Black zetsu's statement is obviously hyperbolic to a small extent, but not to the extent most people in this thread believe. The yata mirror clearly didn't stop tuberculosis from taking itachi out, nor does it block an attack happening on the other side of the planet that's not being directed at itachi. But the point of the matter is that the yata mirror should be as good as a defense the databook claims it to be.