Talk:Truth-Seeking Ball

This is...
speculative as hell. Seelentau 愛議 18:17, July 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * For f sake SuperSaiyaMan why do you always do this bullcrap? We don't even know what that was yet. I'm surprised you haven't been banned from this speculative nonsense you create. --OmegaRasengan (talk) 18:24, July 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Its obviously a new jutsu. There should be no problem creating a page for it.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 18:25, July 9, 2013 (UTC)

You assume that with EVERYTHING and your stuff gets deleted. Haven't you learned by now? It's probably no even a new technique. --OmegaRasengan (talk) 18:28, July 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Why wouldn't it be a new technique? Look at the blades in Obito's hands. OmegaRasengan, you're really overreacting and being rude for no reason.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 18:30, July 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * I am not overreacting, this habit of yours is persistent. Until we know what this is, this has to go. --OmegaRasengan (talk) 18:28, July 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * ...we have plenty of unnamed techniques on this site. This should be treated absolutely no differently, OmegaRasengan. Stop being rude.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 18:39, July 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well if I am "rude", so is Seelantau and we are not "rude". Again, this is complete speculation. I am not going to further in your games and will let the other users decide on this. --OmegaRasengan (talk) 18:42, July 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * You're yelling and insulting me, calling me for being banned, just for creating a topic you CLAIM is speculative. You are being not only rude, you're flaming and being a jerk. Look at the shape transformation in Obito's hands, its a technique for god's sake. And we have plenty of non-named techniques on this site, you going to go yell at them for being speculative?--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 18:44, July 9, 2013 (UTC)

How about both of you calm down? It's obvious that this is a new technique, but everything else (yin yang chakra etc.) is speculation. He's also not even holding the "blades", they're stuck in his hands. Seelentau 愛議 18:47, July 9, 2013 (UTC)

OmegaRasengan, your tone and attitude aren't necessary. There are ways to go about this without personally attacking another user, or coming across as outright childish, which you are. This is definitely something new, but we don't know what it is. Honestly, there isn't enough on that panel to explain what is happening, so, for now, I don't think an article is needed either. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 18:50, July 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * You are right, I need to chill. Seeing something repetitive gets me really annoyed, but this does get old. --OmegaRasengan (talk) 18:52, July 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * Ignoring all of the stupid, I'm not even sure what we saw in that scene, so I'm perfectly fine ignoring it until next week.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 19:24, July 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * If this technique is about those black circles around Obito's hand, it's better to keep it until more info will be revealed on the next chapters, otherwise it should immediately be deleted. And my question, did this technique appear in the anime??!!! When? — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 19:28, July 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm going to let you work out if the technique that just appeared in the manga show up an episode of the anime that aired in the future yourself.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 19:37, July 9, 2013 (UTC)

Look who strikes again... this is like assuming every ufo must be aliens. We don't know what's the stuff in his hands, it can be something important or nothing--Elveonora (talk) 19:50, July 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * What is this? i don't get why this deserves an article. I believe it is nothing. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 20:41, July 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * What you believe is irrelevant. Only facts matter. But, if you'd read the conversation before interjecting such things, you'd notice that the consensus seems to be that this article is unwarranted until what Obito did is explained further. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 20:44, July 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Right now it doesn't because it hasn't any fact in this article, and what i believe matter as much as what you believe @TTF. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 21:00, July 9, 2013 (UTC)

Hell even i, who tend to be more lenient in my standarts see this as extremely speculative...we can barely see what the hell is he doing. It took me 3 reads to even pay attention to the things. It hardly warrants an article for now, seeing how many people agree with this, be done with it. Darksusanoo (talk) 22:20, July 9, 2013 (UTC)

...I give up. Really I do. What is wrong with you people and their inability to wait? We have no God-almighty clue what this thing is, but sure, lets create an article and show off our ignorance to the persons who come here to read the info.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 08:22, July 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * The same reason you find us crazy, we find you crazy. Its accurate as to what is currently known in the manga right now. You going on a tirade whining about it doesn't help anything either. There is nothing even remotely speculative in it. So go sit on a block of ice and chill for a little bit. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 08:50, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * I never said it was speculative at all, else I'd have just said delete it. Let me ask you a question then, and if you can really find a valid point to this then it's fine. Why does it need an article to itself at this point in time? You guys keep equating something having an article to it being seen as important and it's always because of that articles are rushed to be created. What is on this page then that couldn't or isn't going to be copy and pasted into Obito/abilities, Tailed Beast Skill and the Jinchuriki Forms' page that isn't also mentioned on the article entitled "Ten-Tails' Blade"? --Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 08:58, July 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * I assume that happens because people, including yourself, are too lazy to actually write up new descriptions for every article it is included on, but the same could be said of any technique. The point is, techniques on this wiki are given articles. This is clearly a unique technique, as Hiruzen spent the better portion of the first half of the chapter describing his take on it. Given that this entire chapter revolved around analyzing that technique and trying to combat it, I'd say its at least important enough for an article. If your beef is that its just gonna be c/p'ed to another article its meant to be featured on, then maybe you should do something about that and go in and write unique descriptions for each one. But that's no reason to ignore the fact that Kishi is quite obviously placing importance on this move. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 09:47, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see a problem here. Frankly said, we have more information about this technique than about that one at the moment.Norleon (talk) 11:05, July 17, 2013 (UTC)

Picture
Surely we can find a better picture of this technique than the one we have. I mean, yeah it's in color, but in terms of the technique it is pure ass.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 11:17, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Instead of that, is it better to create a gallery that illustrates the changes in the shape transformation of this technique? Still more info needed to clarify it perfectly.  http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a553/anaspet06/Shakhmootssign_zps2a261e68.png  (Contact) 11:33, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * What Shak says--Elveonora (talk) 11:54, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * This picture should be much better. It full shows Obito using the shape transformation to maintain the circular blades. The other image, was indeed horrendous for use on this page. Its already on the others, so this should suffice. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 23:19, July 17, 2013 (UTC)

Technique or Chakra Nature
Is this a technique or a chakra nature like Jinton, Yoton, Mokuton ? I think, its a nature transform.--Salamancc (talk) 16:28, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's a technique that uses nature transformations, I don't get your point--Elveonora (talk) 16:42, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Both. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 16:42, July 17, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah...and yet no article has been done to classify the category...it's like having the article for Dust Release: Detachment of the Primitive World Technique, but not have one for the Dust Release itself as a nature transformation. Darksusanoo (talk) 22:39, July 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, let's just whip that article right up. From what information, exactly? We know four natures are involved and that it isn't kekkei genaki or tōta... Hmm, so shall we just spin in a circle and pick out four for it to be? No. It would be speculation. This article details all that we know of the technique. If its nature gets named, then, and only then, will we create an article on that nature. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 23:09, July 17, 2013 (UTC)

The natures in this technique
This technique is made of Fire, Water, Wind and Earth. The Third said it was at least 4 nature elements, and all the advanced natures have to have at base two or three of these four.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 01:45, July 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * What? Why would it be those four? Any of those could have its place taken by lightning and still count as minimum four. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:04, July 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * Derp. Lightning. Completely forgot that was an element. This entire thing is moot.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 02:08, July 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * Could also be Earth, Wind, Fire, and Yin, and be related to dust release like blaze is to fire. But we don't know that. So nothing should be concluded for now. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 02:13, July 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * He says at least 4, it can be all of five basic elements.--Salamancc (talk) 10:27, July 18, 2013 (UTC)

i think is something about the tailed best, we have the yoton fom the 4 tail, the water for the 3 tail the wind from the shakuaku the 2 tail use fire, the 5 use stream....so it can be a combinatio of this nature transformations --Nitram86 (talk) 21:02, July 18, 2013 (UTC)

Well, Hiruzen concluded from its similarity to Oonki's Jinton that it's made up of at least four natures. So I think we can say for sure that Fire, Earth and Wind are part of this technique. Now, I think that water is more likely, since Hiruzen also remarked how dynamic it changes its form, lookint and acting similar to a fluid. And as far as I know lightning is no fluid. Ofc this is just speculation and not to be included in the article, but still... Seelentau 愛議 21:37, July 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * It reminds me of mercury, the way it splits and shapes itself, but is for sure 4 natures our the part that he says "At least 4" isn't completely forgotten?. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 22:14, July 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * No, but Kishimoto chose "at least" for a reason, I think. If there really were more natures involved, he'd have chosen "more than" or so. But Hiruzen says 少なくとも sukunakutomo, which means at least. Seelentau 愛議 05:57, July 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * He also say 液体のように形を変えて ekitai no yō ni katachi o kaete, which means similar to (a) fluid body (he) changes the form. Seelentau 愛議 06:38, July 19, 2013 (UTC)

Dust?
This technique reduces its targets to dust? Just because it was likened to the Dust Release, doesn't it actually cause whatever it touches to vanish, seeing no "dust"? We haven't seen actual disintegration, just outright disappear. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 08:05, July 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * You don't see dust with dust release either, so I don't see your point. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 13:39, July 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * If we call this thing just like dust release, but more advanced by having at least four elements, then this would little different from dust release. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 16:35, July 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * It says that because that's what Hiruzen said. He said it was exactly like Dust Release in that it reduced everything it touches to dust. That is why it is in the article. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:21, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Sage
Shouldn't the sage be added as a user? --Anamantiumninja (talk) 18:06, July 28, 2013 (UTC)

It is not confirmed if he could use it, despite being likely.Entondark (talk) 18:08, July 28, 2013 (UTC)

Shouldn't it be added now since Obito said he has the power of the ancestor of all shinobi aka the SoS. --Anamantiumninja (talk) 01:23, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * Has not used senjutsu. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:44, August 8, 2013 (UTC)

It continues...
More speculation from you know who. Tobirama said it "might" be Yin–Yang, not that it is. Shouldn't we wait for more proper translations to be released before saying it's Yin–Yang? --OmegaRasengan (talk) 06:38, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Except gamakichi confirmed it with senjutsu. So its not speculation. Its proven fact. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 06:40, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Excuse me? That doesn't prove anything. As I said, this should be put on hold until more translations arise. --OmegaRasengan (talk) 06:46, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with OmegaRasengan. This proves nothing. Classifying this technique to a Yin-Yang release is the very example of speculation. Can I have proof of Senjutsu undoing Yin-Yang techniques? Derigar (talk) 15:07, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * It was when Gamakichi shot that Starch Syrup Gun. It was never stated Yin–Yang Release was weak towards senjutsu, they only said it was effective towards this technique which was ASSUMED to be Yin–Yang but not confirmed. But Ten-Tailed Fox convinced me that this probably a Yin-Yang technique as whenever someone assumes a technique belongs to a certain element in the manga, it turns out true. --OmegaRasengan (talk) 17:28, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

mistake?
when he first transformed he struck out at the 2nd hokage and a hashirama clone...and the 2nd didn't vanish like a clone. but he reappeared healed, the lastest chapter implies that being hit by those black orb creations stop edo tensei healing yet he is just fine although he lost his entire side just a few chapters ago. so was that one earlier supposed to be a clone?--J spencer93 (talk) 07:31, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * The technique apparently "evolved" when Obito was able to take control. --Questionaredude (talk) 07:34, August 7, 2013 (UTC)

Ten-Tails?
Now here's the thing i'm noticing...we marked this as being related to the Ten-Tails, yet we now know this is a Yin-Yang form...that creates a problem...we either mark the Ten-Tails itself as a Yin-Yang user, or change the name of the technique to remove that, since we don't know if it can Yin-Yang. Any ideas? Darksusanoo (talk) 14:36, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Shouldn't the Ten-Tails be listed as a user of "insert natures" since it's a source of all chakra anyway?--Elveonora (talk) 16:04, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Technically everyone opposed when i made a similar remark about listing him as a user of Earth, Water, Wind and Lightning due to how the Tenpenchii shows all those elements...we don't know if it can use Yin-Yang...we know Obito can...Darksusanoo (talk) 19:35, August 7, 2013 (UTC)

Splitting
Considering the fact that Tobirama was able to regenerate from the technique before, I propose that we split the article. The at least four nature transformation he used prior to gaining control over the Ten-Tails isn't quite the same he used after. The technique was clearly recoverable before the change, we can't call the prior technique a Yin-Yang. For now, I think that the Yin-Yang effect of nullifying other ninjutsu and vulnerability to senjutsu should be its own thing. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:53, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Except sempai...Obito's vulnerability for senjutsu appears to be general...also Hiruzen hasn't returned from the damage he sustained from the attack, and that was what, 5 chapters ago? Plus i made a discussion topic similar to that just before yours. Darksusanoo (talk) 00:15, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * We saw some healing-like smoke coming from him early in the chapter, so giant named technique did do something to him, he just tanked it. Hiruzen will be back. Tobirama was hit by the same thing and he regenerated. They're not going to off-panel him like that. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:44, August 8, 2013 (UTC)

again why...
Does the article falsely state the technique to be yin-yang release? I say again bs Foxie or whoever, that's a misinterpretation. There's no evidence that the "YYR ninjutsu negotiation stuff" was part of it to begin with. Quite the contrary:
 * Tobirama regenerated from a direct attack and once Hiruzen shows up, that would be 2
 * Hiruzen stated them to be made of 4 chakra natures, yin, yang and yin-yang are outside of the five
 * all in all, ten-tails chakra weapons and "ninjutsu negotiation" are two separate techniques

There is simply evidence, Hiruzen and Tobirama's varying comments and its effects pre and post Obito's control. Naruto's Rasengan doesn't turn Zetsus into trees outside of chakra mode either if you get what I mean and we don't list Rasengan as a tailed beast skill just because it's being used with TB chakra and chakra arms--Elveonora (talk) 10:35, August 28, 2013 (UTC)


 * Because...Tobirama said it was Yin-Yang Release? Hell if we knew the other four Nature Transformations Hiruzen was talking about they it would be those too.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:13, August 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * What's the problem? Obito gained this chakra after he became the TTJ, but couldn't obliterate any Ninjutsu with it. Then he gained control over the TT which allows him to obliterate every Ninjutsu with it. Also, Hiruzen's and Tobirama's words do not cross each other out, do they? Seelentau 愛議 11:26, August 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * The problem is that the said effect came only later but the technique could be used without it and as such it's not mandatory. The Yin-Yang release refers to the effect's nature rather than chakra weapons in general which are "4 or more" nature transformations--Elveonora (talk) 12:01, August 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * The effect came because Obito managed to gain the control. The chakra is made up of at least four natures, which doesn't contradict that it's YYR. Seelentau 愛議 12:16, August 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Correct me if I'm wrong, but besides the retconned "yin-yang is sixth nature transformation" yin, yang or yin-yang since haven't been referred to as such. But that's not that relevant, the point is that the effect of "nullification" again doesn't come originally with the chakra weapons. Just because Naruto uses Rasengan in Sage Mode at it has natural energy within doesn't mean an ordinary Rasengan does and all for that matter, hopefully you understand the analogy I'm trying to make. He could have added the YYR part after he gained control, doesn't make the original technique YYr--Elveonora (talk) 12:21, August 28, 2013 (UTC)

Whether or not the technique nullification is used before or after is irrelevant. We were told first that it is comprised of at least 4 natures, then we were told it was Yin-Yang Release. I am honestly not sure what the problem is.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 12:26, August 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * The nullification part comes from its YYR component and Hiruzen might not have meant YYR being one of the nature transformations when mentioning "4 or more" but let's say it's fire, water, wind and earth and only once Obito took control he added YYR to it. It all boils down to "we don't know" and I thought especially you Seelentau are against speculation. It might or might not have been YYR already originally... if the latter, it shouldn't be in the infobox--Elveonora (talk) 12:38, August 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah well that's honestly the problem with Hiruzen's comment, it's not very specific. He said Four or more nature transformations, but we know of five, six if you count Yin and Yang. Knowing that Yin-Yang Release is one of the nature still leaves room for potentially 3 or more other releases.
 * Overall, we were told spheres were using Yin-Yang Release so we know that, we've seen it when he had a chakra sphere explode and take out Minato's arm and canceled the Resurrection out to keep it from regrowing,--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:18, August 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Not even that much with the comments, those are just icing on the cake. The point is, if a mediocre Shinobi spits out a Katon technique and a powerful Shinobi spits out a higher level Katon technique, both are gonna be fire or combustive substance. The whole "Since Obito took control, the x technique suddenly does else on top of what it did" is nonsense. If it were YYR in nature the first time it was used, Tobirama wouldn't regenerate but would have paid a visit to his father and brothers.--Elveonora (talk) 13:48, August 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Or, perhaps the Ten-Tails, being a "Imma just gonna break crap" kind of monster didn't use the Yin-Yang Release and nullify the techniques, while Tobi in his "Imma screw you over" kind of guy did? You are arguing with Kishimoto on this one I'm afraid, all we can do is show what we have been shown/told.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:02, August 28, 2013 (UTC)

That's the very point. The "Imma screw you over" Yin-Yang Release nullification isn't mandatory to formation of chakra weapons and as such shouldn't be in the infobox. Unless you suggest the effect was there but isn't automatic, that would be like saying "fire doesn't burn unless the user wants it to" logic--Elveonora (talk) 14:28, August 28, 2013 (UTC)


 * It may not be mandatory to nullify, but that doesn't negate the fact that it exists within the technique. As already stated, we have not seen the chakra set anything on fire, but there is still the possibility that fire is one of the elements that make it. Hell Tobirama even stated with the chakra he can do almost anything he wants with the Yin-Yang Release so while the Ten-Tails wasn't its imagination to cancel techniques, Tobi was.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 15:10, August 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, you have managed to persuade me with the "can do anything with chakra" parts and the substance of other advanced natures not necessarily having obvious traits of the natures that make it/them up. I haven't ultimately said that the article is wrong, only that it sounds too definitive while some of it may not be true. Still, I believe the latter effect to be simply the said technique being amplified with another unnamed technique, I as a wise guy give up or else we would go on arguing for weeks like this :-I --Elveonora (talk) 16:44, August 28, 2013 (UTC)