Talk:Sage Art: Lava Release Rasenshuriken

Collaboration Technique
Seeing as Naruto is using Son's pre-made Lava chakra to form this, it should be a collaboration technique between the two of them, right?--BeyondRed (talk) 17:54, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Nope. Son's chakra is inside Naruto, they're different entities, but Son isn't physically there performing the technique. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:58, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I see it more like Naruto using Son's chakra to create the jutsu...sort of like Hinata using the chakra given by Naruto to power up her Eight Trigrams Vacuum Palm against the Ten-Tails.--JOA20 (talk) 17:59, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * By this logic all of Gaara's sand techniques are collaboration ones too.--Elveonora (talk) 18:00, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * 'course it's a collab jutsu. Son gives Naruto the chakra, Naruto sets it free. How's that not collaboration? Naruto could not perform it on his own. Seelentau 愛議 18:10, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Hm.... let me reconsider. I guess Naruto can't merge Earth and Fire himself.... or perhaps he can, but he doesn't know Doton and Katon anyway, so yeah, no KKG in his case, but how are you sure about Roshi?--Elveonora (talk) 18:15, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * And Gaara on his own wouldn't have been able to control sand if he had never been Shukaku's host, that doesn't mean every sand technique he did as a host is a collab either, as you argued yourself. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:19, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * There are many things we do understand all the rules of, including this topic, but also extending to what is a pseudo-JK in all forms, what truly makes a JK, etc. Right now, we may get an answer, so let's wait before saying what kind of technique it is as far as collabs as concerned. --Taynio (talk) 04:15, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

i would define a collaboration Jutsu as "two or more techniques that are being used simultaneously which give each other a positive, negative, or neutralizing effect". Since it's only one technique, but two seperate chakras, its technically not a collaboration jutsu in my eyes (just collaborationist chaka). but then i still suggest we have a higher up come and clear this up. Iowndisciti (talk) 04:26, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

Wind Release
What should we say about the Wind Release. Naruto calls it only Lava Release, but there are these shuriken-like blades that remind of Rasenshuriken.--JOA20 (talk) 17:59, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * There is no Wind Release involved, otherwise it would be stated in the technique's name.--Elveonora (talk) 18:01, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Elve: I don't mean to be antagonistic, because I realize we got into it a little to heated with the whole Truth-Seeking Balls thing, but that is the worst logic I've ever seen aplied to anything. It has Wind Release mixed in for sure. Those blades are slicing through the Shinju like a hot knife through butter. Lava doesn't do that. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:02, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Chidori doesn't have "Lightning Release" in its name, but it's very obviously a Lightning Release technique. The shuriken part of this technique is clearly Wind Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:04, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Why do you assume those blades are unique to Fuuton? For all we know they are red and hot this time--Elveonora (talk) 18:06, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because Lava doesn't cut. It doesn't make for good blades either. Wind is the only nature that does that. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:09, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm with Elve-kun on this one. Those blades weren't described as a result of the wind release. Seelentau 愛議 18:10, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * And again I say, when Lava can cut anything I'll agree with you. But it doesn't. Wind is the cutting nature. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:12, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

You would have a point Foxie if we saw Naruto making a WR:RS first and then asking for Son's chakra, except he made it whole in his palm as Lava Release--Elveonora (talk) 18:14, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * If what TTF says is true, then how come Naruto doesn't create a fully new element (kekkei tōta, fire+wind+earth)?--JOA20 (talk) 18:15, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because Dust Release is the merger of earth, fire and wind chakra, not lava and wind. And even if Son has the ability to merge fire and earth into lava, Naruto doesn't have the ability (as far as we know), to merge either lava and wind, or earth, fire and wind. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:17, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * (HOLYS CRAP PEOPLE! EDIT CONFLICTS >_< /rant jk) Here's how I see it. See if this makes sense, because it may not xD Naruto isn't having to mold Lava Release. He's making a Fūton Rasenshuriken and then adding in the chakra Son pre-molded for him. I mean the blades cut through a tree. Lava doesn't do that even in the fictional depictions that Kishi made. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:18, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Also it's as same as Naruto and Sasuke's collaboration technique, it's not Shakuton. It's just simply Fūton and Enton. By the way, Foxy-sama was right, Naruto created the Rasenshuriken firstly and then he mixed it with Son's chakra. — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 18:21, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

@Shakmoot, where you do see that? I see the contrary, he asked for chakra and made LR: Rasenshuriken. The way I see it is that Naruto made only the Rasengan and then added the lava nature to it--Elveonora (talk) 18:22, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * You explain to me how lava cuts anything and I'll agree with you. The blades cut the tree and there is no sign of a burning effect. Hell, the smoke is coming off the central sphere only, not the blades. The cutting, people, is the decision maker. Not the name. No one is arguing if Lava is involved or if Naruto made it with lava. The point is lava doesn't cut, Rasenshuriken is a wind-based technique, so logic dictates that he mixed Lava from Son with his Fūton Rasenshuriken, and we get this love child technique. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:25, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) Yes. It was Lava Release Rasenshuriken, not Lava Release Rasengan or Lava Release Rasentectonic plate. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:26, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Elve-kun: Does that mean the Rasenshuriken isn't a completed technique? Or he created the Rasenshuriken and mixing it with Son's chakra simultaneously? Sorry I couldn't understand it perfectly. But still agreed with Foxy-sama. — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 18:30, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

@Omni, so you mean to tell me that Rasengan + Fire/Water/Earth/Lightning wouldn't shape it into a shuriken but a square or a triangle? ...--Elveonora (talk) 18:33, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not into a shuriken, no, I don't. An Earth Release Rasengan would make no sense having something that looks like cutting, and if at least one nature transformation would probably turn into something different, why wouldn't the others? We were shown that the shape transformation turned the wind chakra into tiny blades by Tsunade, the very fact that other natures have different effects means that the shape transformation would turn them into something else, ergo not a shuriken. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:43, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * The fact that the "molten rock" appearance didn't spread to the blades is proof enough that more than Lava is at work in that technique. And. For the millionth time, I'll say: Lava. Doesn't. Cut. Agreed with Omni. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:46, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, okay... then add Fuuton too and list rasenshuriken as parent if you must--Elveonora (talk) 18:50, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Thankfully it reached a conclusion without me. But I'm surprised no one put more emphasis on the "rasenSHURIKEN" part. The Fuuton portion comes from the shuriken naming. Not all collab/combination techniques are like Fuuton, Katon, Doton: blah blah blah blah blah. Some even just say something a la Suiton: Water Something Cannon Blast (not a real technique), but would use Fuuton and Suiton. But it's definitely the shuriken part we need to look for to determine the type of technique, based on the rules of naming we've seen in the past for multiple chakra natures.

That being said, "doesn't cut" works, too, lol. --Taynio (talk) 04:22, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

The thing is, Rasengan itself is strictly chakra alone. While Rasenshuriken has only been shown as a variation that includes an element with it, theoretically Rasenshuriken can be only chakra. That is probably why Naruto calls it FUUTON: Rasenshuriken. Here there is no including the Fuuton Element, but rather Lava. Onto the main point here, Lava may be the centralized part of it, however in the end it IS chakra. The swirling around it don't necessarily have to be of the Fuuton element but may just be regular (or sage) chakra being pulsed around it. It does not HAVE to be Lava OR Wind spiraling around the Rasengan to make the Rasenshuriken. Koriami (talk) 15:03, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Its wind. Rasenshuriken is a WIND element technique (it required wind to even take a shuriken shape in the first place, so the "regular chakra argument is as bogus as they come) and this technique is only Rasenshuriken with added Lava. Its Lava and Wind. There we go. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 15:17, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * "Fuuton: Rasenshuriken" is wind. We have not seen any proof that Rasenshuriken BY ITSELF is impossible. Nor have we been given any reason to believe that it is impossible. Naruto created the technique after learning to manipulate the Fuuton element, so naturally he included it into the design of the jutsu. However showing that the Lava Release Rasenshuriken CAN EXIST, merely leads me to believe that the Rasenshuriken technique is possible without an element attributed to it, just like its base move the "Rasengan." And if that is the case, which it appears to be, it is entirely possible for Lava Release Rasenshuriken to exist WITHOUT the Fuuton element included by producing regular (or sage) chakra for the spiraling around it. This chakra can cut if manipulated in a way that allows it to (or in other words, in the way the Rasenshuriken would require). If this was as cut and dry as you are trying to make it sound there would be no need for a discussion about it. Koriami (talk) 16:50, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * You missed the entire point. Wind Release is required to make it a shuriken-shape. That alone debunks your entire paragraph. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 16:57, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Alright then. To be called "RasenShuriken", there is the implication that it needs to look like and/or resemble a shuriken. At no point in time is it stated that the Fuuton element is required to achieve this form. In fact, that is what my entire last post was about. Saying how the move was left open to have the potential to be used without requiring the Fuuton element. And if it can be used without said element, then that also leads to the implication that another element may be used in its place. Leaving Rasenshuriken as a base jutsu and its elemental variations as a more advanced version. Koriami (talk) 17:28, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, no, no, you're not getting it. Go back to the chapter in which Naruto is creating the Rasenshuriken. Wind is the only chakra nature that produces blades and by simply pouring wind chakra into the Rasengan, the shuriken shape was created. Naruto named it based on the appearance it took, not because he purposely shaped it that way. No other chakra nature is going to produce the blades. So your argument is literally impossible. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:34, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * But it is not impossible. Chakra can be shaped and molded in any way. Point and case, the fact that there is a Fuuton: Rasengan and a Fuuton: Rasenshuriken. If the wind release made it so that the blades had shown up, Fuuton: Rasengan would NOT be a possibility. However, Fuuton: Rasengan and Fuuton: Rasenshuriken are two seperate jutsu. Leaving it to be believed that Naruto DID have control over the shape, and that Elemental Affinity does have little to do with the shape of the jutsu.Koriami (talk) 17:48, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * It is impossible because Kishimoto wrote that wind chakra is the only nature that creates blades. Kishimoto writes the series, I record the series. When Kishi writes that another nature can create huge slicing wind blades, which take on a specific shape upon application to a Rasengan, then I will relent and record it. Edit: And no. Naruto had no control over the initial shape. The moment he added wind to Rasengan, it formed Wind Release: Rasengan... a small wind shuriken. From there, he made it bigger with shape transformation, and poof, Rasenshuriken. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:52, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Kishimoto has and will continue to make mistakes. The Rasenshuriken has become Naruto's trademark move, so Kishimoto is continuing to use that. He wanted to introduce a new element to it, so he decided to. And, using Shape Transformation Naruto recreated the Rasenshuriken using the Yoton element. You just said exactly what I was saying, except said it is the reason it can only be Fuuton. If Naruto can use Shape Transformation to make a large shuriken, he can surely do it with another element. And as I said before, the blades don't HAVE to be made of the Fuuton element. They can be simple chakra as well. If he can control the shape, then surely that removes the shape being an impossible factor without Fuuton.
 * Also, we have not seen the jutsu HIT yet. We have seen the waves around it cut into a tree, but we have not seen it hit yet. It could explode/melt once it hits rather than cut through Madara. Also, another thought, they never said the blades were created by the Fuuton element. In fact, on this very wikia, it says Naruto himself creates the four points required for the Rasenshuriken. So even if Naruto himself were not in control of creating the points (which, it says he does) then the points could also be caused by such a high concentration of chakra in a single area. There are many explanation as to why the points are there, however them being created because the Fuuton element exists within the technique are very slim when there is a jutsu, using the same base technique, containing the same elemental affinity.Koriami (talk) 18:05, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Again. This is Kishimoto's story. Not yours or mine. Its not my job to tell him where he isn't making sense or where he's making "mistakes" (highly presumptuous of you to say, because you are assuming, with that statement, that Kishimoto didn't want to make it a mix of wind and lava). It certainly isn't my job to be cocky and correct that for him. He said only wind produces chakra blades. Rasenshuriken is a core wind technique. This techniques is born from adding lava to that wind mix. I record those facts and my job is done. There is nothing to argue about that. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:08, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Highly presumptuous of you to say many of the things you are saying. Such as deciding that Yoton: Rasenshuriken contains the Fuuton element where there is no proof of this. As you said, this is Kishimotos story. If he meant it to be Fuuton he would have made it clear. Rasenshuriken itself is NOT a core-wind technique. The variation we have seen uses the Fuuton element, however the VARIATION is called FUUTON: Rasenshuriken. If Rasenshuriken itself was a core-wind move, then would it not just simply be called Rasenshuriken? From what we have seen Naruto produces this Yoton: Rasenshuriken immediately. There is NO evidence showing that he first created the Fuuton: Rasenshuriken and THEN added the Yoton element. I would prefer if you would stop trying to attack my character and provide more "evidence" to support your case and disprove mine. Until mine is dis-proven (which cannot be done until you prove yours accurate), there is reasonable doubt to your claims and as such cannot be called the absolute and final verdict.Koriami (talk) 00:54, April 14, 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to point you to Big Ball Rasenshuriken and Mini-Rasenshuriken. Neither has Wind Release in the name, both very clearly Wind Release. Same goes for some of Temari's techniques. Baki's Blade of Wind. Chidori and Kirin don't have Lightning Release on their names, clearly Lightning Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:20, April 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * I would agree with what you are saying Omnibender, however this DOES have an element leading its name. Yoton. In all of your examples they have no elemental affinity included in their name. Now, if it was "Katon: Chidori" what would you assume the element was? The logic that has been applied in this discussion is also that just because there is an elemental affinity in the name does not mean that is necessarily the element. If that was the case, "Fuuton: Rasengan" doesn't necessarily have to be the wind element. Basically, what I am saying is, if you can't go by the name when making a judgment call such as this you also cannot include name omissions as an example to prove your theory.Koriami (talk) 01:29, April 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't care about the name. At all. I care about the giant ass blades of wind that  cut through a tree  and the fact that wind nature chakra is the only chakra nature that produces blades, per Kakashi's own words in previous chapters. You cannot change my mind on this, nor can you change what is already established in the manga. It has wind in it. That's all there is to it. That's not being presumptuous, that's using facts to come to a logical conclusion. What is presumptuous is to assume that Kishimoto would suddenly change the nature of a well known Wind Release technique for shits and giggles. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:34, April 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * So wind is the only element that can cut? I fail to see the logic in that. Considering Chidori's primary ability is to cut/pierce. And on that note, I don't need to change your mind. All I need to do is provide logic supporting my ideals until your ideals have no more logic to back themselves. Which, as it appears, I am doing. Also, Almost any element can cut. It all depends on how it is used. Wood element can cut, as can earth, lightning, water, and lava. Lava is a liquid substance with solids inside of it. Shaped thin enough and moving fast enough, it can cut. And, as I said before, THIS VERY WIKIA SAYS THAT NARUTO PRODUCES SAID BLADES. Not that the wind element creates them. Arguing that the blades being within the technique means that it has to be Fuuton is an invalid argument. And actually, it is presumptuous to say you know what Kishimoto could be thinking. Neither you nor I know that, so all we have to go on is what is presented to us. At the moment, we are shown that there is a YOTON Rasenshuriken. There is nothing there indicating the Fuuton element. Implying that wind is the only element that can produce a sharp effect is like saying that there have not been any other jutsu (aside from those with the Fuuton affinity) that have been able to produce a cutting effect. Koriami (talk) 01:51, April 14, 2014 (UTC)

Point of Note: Sasuke makes it a thing to create blades of black fire. In other words, he uses Blaze Release to to cut things. This is relevant to this discussion.
 * Carry on.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 02:17, April 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Fire doesn't cut. The blade my burn through things similar to the way a blade cuts through whatever needs cutting, but fire doesn't have an edge, nor does it have the capabilities to cut, so it would be improper to say Blaze Release cuts anything. He makes a valid point about lightning having piercing qualities (there is a difference), but unless Naruto suddenly learned that too, that theory is out. The point is, Rasenshuriken is a wind technique, all of its variants are wind, and wind is the direct reason the shuriken blades form around the Rasengan. Kishimoto isn't just going to swap out that element and make Lava create a cutting shuriken for the lulz. That just doesn't make sense. I'm amazed its even being argued. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 03:09, April 14, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure why people are forgetting what Foxy pointed out. The entire reason, reiterating what he said, rasengan became rasenshuriken is because of adding fuuton to the mix. It took the manipulation and molding of wind chakra to achieve that form and have those abilities. It took fuuton to make it spin like that. All arguments against having Fuuton, especially considering what we know of how techniques are named, are invalid because of that. Now, if it turns out Kish makes a point of saying Fuuton isn't in it, Foxy and others will concede, but until then... --Taynio (talk) 04:38, April 14, 2014 (UTC)

How?
The chapter isn't even released yet; merely in raw. I thought adding information was against the Spoiler Policy and we waited until the full manga translated was released On Tues/Wed/Thurs --KiumaruHamachi (talk) 23:09, April 12, 2014 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi
 * Thread:122093.--JOA20 (talk) 23:12, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

There's already a discussion for this in a chat room forum. Munchvtec (talk) 23:17, April 12, 2014 (UTC)