Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-26636534-20180830184727/@comment-34194151-20190115135616

@JamesSenpai

I'm really doing my best to stay patient here... JIRAIYA CLEARLY Stated that genjutsu is an advanced ninjutsu, and I have said that multiple times. Why ignore unbiased character statements from credible characters that the author is using to directly inform readers on the mechanics of his manga, as well as things I have repeated in my post more than once. Genjutsu and ninjutsu is also clearly shown in the diagram Ebisu presented in Chapter 90 and no distinction is made between the two. So Concession accepted.

Your last point just proves my point. If the goal is to end the fight, Itachi can put as much chakra into his genjutsu as he wants. Who cares if he exhausts alot of his stamina if he won the fight. He has time to rest afterward in most scenarios. He was facing 4 opponents, arguably holding back, and was just using thirty percent of strength. He couldn't afford to make ephemeral as strong as he wanted or he would overextend. No ninja is dumb enough to put all their chakra in one technique unless they are certain it will end the fight. The manga clearly showed you that genjutsu requires advanced chakra control, but the mechanics are the same. Advanced chakra control just means weaving signs for manipulating yin release chakra is difficult for most ninja. Itachi has perfect chakra control, that much is obvious. Even if the minimum chakra required for Ephemeral is 1 percent of his overall reserves, it was clearly shown in Ebisu's diagram that the user can mould more than the minimum amount of chakra for ninjutsu AND/OR GENJUTSU to increase the technique, sufficient they have the chakra control to manipulate the additional chakra. Itachi with just 30 percent of his chakra at best would only go up to maybe 10 percent with the Ephemeral he used against Naruto. Furthermore, Itachi clearly layered the genjutsu. He wanted to use MS but couldn't so he switched to a genjutsu  with a lower minimum chakra cost to one that would put naruto to sleep. Naruto then tried to resist, and Itachi himself commended his attempted application of Genjutsu:Kai. In order to sustain a genjutsu on someone in the first place, you need to continously contribute chakra, and being at thirty percent of his strength, he is limited.

Furthermore, you missed the point of why I brought this up in the first place. Itachi, as you yourself understand well (something I commended you for), has ALOT more going on then just genjutsu. His clone feints are UNDETECTABLE as far these opponents are concerned, and in fact are undetectable to most characters in the verse. Yeah, I said it. EMS Sasuke who can follow Juubito couldn't see Itachi's clone+ substitution technique. Let's take a trip back to Part one for a second, and @FaitoMai, this applies to you as well. In Chapter 6, Sasuke explains that Substitution technique is a feat of the user's Body Flicker combined with "skill" in order to create an optical illusion. The fact that ITachi isn't faster than Juubito outside of the context of his substitution jutsu allows me to believe that Substitution has a space/time component to it, otherwise people can't just randomly grab perfectly sliced logs. In addition, Zaku implied that substitution jutsu can be used in mid-air (where one can't use their running speed). So I beleive the technique is a combination of Body flicker as the parent technique, then some space/time component, and "skill". Itachi's skill with the technique makes him achieve a clone feinting speed greater than that of Juubito, as what he did was essentially:

He Made a crow clone without kabuto seeing despite the fact Itachi was right in front of him. Grabbed said crow clone and switched places with it the instant before Kabuto stabbed him. Said Crow clone then recorded the izanami experience, and because crow clones are shadow clones, the experience goes back to the user. The fact that Sasuke NOR Kabuto saw or sensed those actions proves that Itachi is on another level. His handseal speed is already untracebale. His clone formations are also untraceable. Clones always spawn next to the user, but no one has EVER seen Itachi's clones form on panel. He did the same thing in all three of the fights we have seen him used clones. Spawned a shadow clone without Kakashi, Asuma, or Kurenai noticing, used substitution jutsu, and got behind Kakashi. Spawned a shadow clone during a goddamm Shuriken CLASH with Sasuke, Sasuke didn't see the clone. Itachi grabbed said clone and swapped out with it and hid somehwere (probably underground) and then reappeared when he wanted. Kabuto I already explained

The reason most ninja don't use substitution in high level battles is because it's normally easily detected by competent ninja. But a genius like Itachi is so skilled he can clone feint at speeds greater than Juubito's shunshin.

Itachi uses his genjutsu as feints as well. He can easily take out Kimimaro and Orochimaru with his clone feints+ yakasa bead smokescreens,+ Totsuka alone. At that point, he can finish Konan with Ephemeral if he wanted to, because now he has no one else to worry about and can overextend his chakra input to make it potent as hell, and layer it like he did to Naruto to put her to sleep.

@Ninja of War

I very clearly distinguished my points carefully, thank you. I said name ONE jutsu that doesn't get amplified by having access to more chakra. Shadow clones split the user's chakra. It still requires chakra to be MOULDED. The more chakra you mould, the more clones you make. One shadow clone requires 50 percent of your stamina. Making more requires you to exponentially divide your chakra down, and it's dangerous if your max reserves are too low. Name one time we have seen Kakashi able to make 1000 clones like naruto can for practical use in battle. The chakra is equally distributed to each clone through chakra control. The fact that naruto has more chakra in comparison to Kakashi means he can more clones without risk, and each clone still has a lot of firepower to boot. The basic clone technique is different and has a different purpose, but even THEN, simply moulding 30 percent created more clones. The user gets to CHOOSE how much chakra to mould for the technique. The issue with naruto is that he can only manipulate 10 percent of his chakra max at a time for many handseal based techniques, so he can't make 3 clones in one sitting. He would have to conduct the technique 3 separate times to make 3 clones, so he wastes both time and stamina compared to Sasuke and Sakura in making the same technique. You failed to account for how chakra control works and the nature of the technique. Genjutsu isn't a clone technique. We have SEEN that putting more chakra into genjutsu makes it more powerful. Itachi can dilate time as much as he wants as stated in Tsykuyomi, but increasing it from 0 to 24 hrs to 72 hrs to 100 years each takes more chakra. His perfect chakra control allows him to manipulate as much chakra as he moulds. The genjutsu itself is so powerful because of his skill and the fact that his MS eye is the required medium.

Like I said, the instant naruto got kyuubi's chakra, his "100 percent" stamina increased and he was able to create gamabunta despite the fact he is only able to manipulate ten percent of his chakra. Ten percent of base naruto is way less than ten percent of base naruto + kurama, which is why he could summon gamabunta despite having no increase in chakra control skill.

Your entire argument is on the basis that Itachi, an experienced genjutsu specialist, is an idiot, and naruto is also an idiot. Naruto is smart. He was moulding more chakra as Jiraiya told him, which is why dust kicked up, and with more chakra available he was able to manipulate more of it using chakra control. The more stamina he moulds the more likely it is he can break it via genjutsu:kai. Genjutsu Kai isn't a clone technique, it's an application of the user's strength in attempt to bring their chakra flow to a stop in order to break genjutsu. Your whole thing about "resetting" is unsupported. Jiraiya clearly stated that you have to DISTURB the chakra flow first before you can bring it to a stop. Disturbing requires FORCE. Itachi clearly commended naruto's growth and was geninuely surprised that he could resist the genjutsu, which means he was conducting Genjutsu:Kai correctly. Itachi has less chakra so he is basically using a rock to control naruto's chakra but he controls that rock skillfully. With just a small amount of his chakra he made a powerful genjutsu. Naruto has more charka so he is using a mountain of force insead of a rock, but his weaker control causes him to control and apply the force less effectively. The playing field was completely level yet Itachi still won.

I remember the Karin scene well. You can normally sense abnormal chakra flow in a victim through chakra sensing. You are right, The yin release chakra is parasite, and Itachi is skilled enough to make said parasite undetectable to sensors as he manipulates his victim's chakra flow. The output of genjutsu like any technique depends on the chakra control and chakra moulded, but clearly the yin release chakra itself varies in quality from genjutsu user to genjutsu user, and that is also dependent the nature transformation step. Chakra control is just not just being able to manipulate all your moulded chakra, it's also the quality with which you manipulate it and transform it into a ninjutsu or genjutsu with the desired effects. This explains why Tsunade can't make genjutsu despite expert chakra control. she is not skilled in the type of Yin release required to make Genjutus, just like Shikmaru who is also a yin release type also can't make genjutsu despite having no chakra control issues.

You also missed the point about Part one Hashi. His DEEP FOREST EMERGENCE was noticably smaller than the DEEP FOREST EMERGENCE he could cast with 100 percent of his strength available. It's the same technique yet it was made more potent when he had more strength available. The skill component is perfectly making all your moulded chakra turn into life energy to create trees. Adding more chakra available combined with perfect chakra control means he can make a denser and larger forest at the expense of more stamina expended...

On your Temple of Nirvana post, I thought it was something I clearly explained though. Itachi can cast genjutsu through his fingers or through his sharingan or MS and can make his techniques undetectable by sensors.... and was portrayed to be able to control entire alliance subdivisions. His skill with sharingan genjutsu is unprecedented, which is why Oro was shocked at how hard it was for him to break out. I don't find Nirvana impressive at all for two reasons at least in comparison to Itachi. 1)Kabuto had access to more or less 100 percent of his strength when he cast it. Doesn't mean the Nirvana he used was at it's strongest, but even so he was SURPRISED that Guy and Kakashi sensed it and broke it so easily. Even Sakura and Shikamaru did the same thing, and Sakura implied that Shikamaru did so because he actually knew how to break genjutsu, yet you have yet to confirm that naruto knew how to break genjutsu back then. Itachi was at thirty percent, so his options were limited. 2) Mindset. What was Itachi's goal? Was he even going all out? Was he trying to capture all of them in ephemeral? His role was to stall Team 7, not incapacitate, he works for Konoha. In my opinion, he casted ephemeral on naruto to test his growth while still painting himself as a villain. He knew that Chiyo and Sakura could release him if need be. I already proved that Itachi basically had 30 percent intellect (heh) in that fight as well. Kakashi's clone feinting is something he is experienced with and has already planned contingencies for in the past. Doesn't make him omniscient of course, but he didn't at all seem as calculating as he normally is in that fight.

@Flatzone thank you for posting those links, even the wiki clearly states what I have been essentially saying this whole time. Also @FaitoMaito, It's okay, I'm just trying to be less irritated myself, it's just a naruto discussion and should bring enjoyment not anger.