Talk:Flying Thunder God Technique

Parent
I'm sorry, why is BFT listed as a parent to this, because it's mentioned somewhat interchangeably with this? I don't think so. BFT makes no use of space-time manipulation and dimensional voids, it's just fast movement. The closest thing FTG has to a parent technique is the summoning technique. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:14, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Omni this chapter referred to FTG as a BFT. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 21:59, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Confused me as well. Perhaps it's an error or it indeed wasn't referring to Flying God, because on next page it's called with its proper name--Elveonora (talk) 22:21, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Elv like we discussed in Tobirama Talk Page that you said i was wrong stating that FTG is a BFT, they already referred to the FTG as a BFT when Tobirama stated that Minato's BFT was better than his one. FTG is a BFT, very simple. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 22:27, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Again, it's impossible. BFT is using chakra flow to increase speed, FTG is a space-time technique that uses sealing formulas, not related at all.--Elveonora (talk) 22:36, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Tell that to Kishi @Elv, the real fact here is that they refer to FTG as a BFT. If they do, twice in a row now, our duty is to add it like that. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 01:02, July 4, 2013 (UTC)

It's not an error. It can't be an error twice by the techniques assumed creator saying the same thing twice and then mentioning that Minato had marked Obito. The technique to me, looks like its compile of more than one technique the body flicker would account for the instantaneous appearance of the persons while (in theory) the summoning technique/shiki would account for the actual movement from marked location x to y.-Cerez 365 ™(talk) 16:49, July 4, 2013 (UTC)

That makes no sense Cerez, all summoning techniques are instantaneous because they are teleportation. Body Flicker is actual fast movement from place to place.--Elveonora (talk) 16:54, July 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * That does make sense the FTG would transport the person from x to y while the summoning technique summons the person, and the BFT make the person appear to fast and startling the opponent, It seems they could work together and that could actually explain how the technique might work but that's theory --ROOT 根 (talk) 16:57, July 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * The usage is teory, but FTG being a BFT isn't... We can speculate all we want, but the fact doens't change, even if we disagree with it. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 17:05, July 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * The only thing of BFT in FTG is the look, it does not play any actual role in how the technique works. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:10, July 4, 2013 (UTC)

It must be an error. I believe the first instance meant what was said, they were indeed talking about body flicker when Tobirama commented about Minato. Now, Kishi simply confused himself and screwed up. No matter how hard you try to justify it, there isn't ANY body flicker involved in FTG--Elveonora (talk) 17:12, July 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * But isn't an error. Twice in a row now. Just accept it. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 17:31, July 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * I highly doubt it's an error not twice by the same person unless Tobirama or Kishimoto is dyslexic. I think the FTG incorporates the body flicker somehow and possibly even the summoning technique but note there is no need for blood sacrifice or even smoke as we've noted except that one time Minato teleported which might have just been him kicking up dust. I thought at first that it may have been an error but it makes no sense that Tobirama and Minato would fly and then stop and use the BFT to arrive on the battlefield. And then Tobirama comes back and says the same thing again? To me it makes sense that its incorporated in the technique. Not too sure of I've explained it right though.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 17:37, July 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * You are clear enough but it isn't. Body Flicker is running chakra flow into feet (and presumably also hands when fast hand seal movements are used) to increase speed. There's no need to use body flicker since FTG is already speed of light, there's no way to incorporate it there, it's just an excuse for a mess-up. The technique doesn't work the way you think it does. For your no sense, they can teleport only to a marked place not anywhere their wishes, so they had to walk the rest there. And yes, Kishimoto is a human and he has a history of quite some mess-ups behind him already. Databook description nor the manga and all we know about techniques and shit mentions what you think has happened--Elveonora (talk) 17:54, July 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Without giving into thr incessant cries of error, because its not, we could all be wrong and the term Body Flicker Technique is being used as a category as opposed to the actual technique. I don't think anyone is dumb enough to be doing a series and to make the mistake of calling one of the most famous techniques and saying oh well it's gone to shit so let me continue to call it that maybe the idiots won't notice and continue to serialise my manga. So I say we ask Seelentau to translate what's said in both instances and if we want to hold off on adding it as a technique I wouldnt br against it.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 18:05, July 4, 2013 (UTC)

The thing is, both body flicker and flying thunder god have a databook entry, the former isn't stated to be a category but a specific technique with workings nothing alike the latter. So "yes, no, maybe I don't know..." is pointless to do here, it's clearly either a contradiction; thus either an error or retcon, or simply scanlators messed up this time--Elveonora (talk) 18:09, July 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if BFT is parent, but i think it is related somehow with FTG, theres no doubt in that. It is not an error. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 18:26, July 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * It wouldn't be the first time that a technique is the same as a category name, eg clone technique(s). The databooks use a whole heap of sub categories. This isn't one of those things we should chalk up to being an error or retcon- really? We seem to love that word a lot nowadays. We just need to find the best way to integrate the information.Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 18:29, July 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * My opinion is that somehow FTG principles contains is base in BFT, and the way they talk, or it is related, or is parent or is from BFT category because of the fast body moviment. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 18:34, July 4, 2013 (UTC)

Sigh, perhaps Kishimoto has had mechanical and/or chemical brain damage from injury or senility caught him early, there's no need to kiss his behind. No matter how hard one tries to justify something false doesn't and won't make it true. The best course of action is to check the kanji, perhaps it's written differently and we may have 2 different body flickers here--Elveonora (talk) 19:13, July 4, 2013 (UTC)

Maybe it's the parent in the same way the Tailed Beast Ball is the parent to Rasengan. It doesn't have to work on the same mechanical principle to serve as the inspiration. It could simply be that Minato looked at this basic ability and thought, how do I do this better? Besides that, to say that Body Flicker serves no purpose in this is inaccurate to a degree, Minato himself still has to be capable with high speed movement to make this technique truly effective, or else he's just dropping himself into a position where he's a sitting duck and anyone who has worked out that he moves to where the kunai are could get the drop on him if he wasn't capable of evading once teleported. Kinda like Dojutsu and the Chidori. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 19:28, July 4, 2013 (UTC)

In the same vain Elveonora, there is no need to go around discrediting the manga, that's what forum and messageboards are for, not Narutopedia. You cannot stand on someone's back and curse at them, it doesn't make any sense. im not saying he doesn't make mistakes but you're always too quick to call Kishimoto an idiot.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 19:42, July 4, 2013 (UTC)

I'd sooner consider BFT as an inspiration for developing a reverse summon than in the vein of TBB and Rasengan than an actual parent technique. At the very most, it could go in the related jutsu if that's the case. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:08, July 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * If not a parent then I don't think we should add it as a related either. Trivia maybe, depending on the translations we can get.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 23:20, July 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Trivia isn't enough, parent or related should be the options. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 23:23, July 4, 2013 (UTC)

ok well id like to add something here, I was right btw about tobirama and the flying thunder god...and how the seal works. and so I would like to put a little input here, if a certain user doesn't mind shutting up for a minute and stop spotting nonsense. maybe we all misunderstood how the jutsu actually working in the first place, kishi doesn't make mistakes but not nearly as often as others claim. rarely actually...I don't even believe 100% sure that the data books and completely him like the old DBZ ones weren't akira either. Anyways I think the jutsu is derived from the BFT like someone else said, since its being referred to as a BFT there should be no dispute about it. that is what the author said it is, no matter what we have to say its simply what it is, even if it don't make sense, kishimoto said its BFT so it is. that should be all that is needed, now a trivia saying something like, "this jutsu was called a BFT by its users in the 4th war, but why or how the techniques are related" would be good.--J spencer93 (talk) 04:27, July 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't understand how can someone try to take notice of what the creator says in his creations, who does not want to follow what Kishimoto decides in his works, one can go to Fanon and create himself what one believes. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 11:33, July 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * The same goes to you, Dan. You seem to speculate a lot yourself. But that isn't the issue here. Body Flicker is the act of moving one's body at a fast rate of speed. But that's all it is. Raw speed. Flying Thunder God actually teleports, using space-time, the user from one spot to another, sometimes miles and miles away. Even the fastest Body Flicker cannot achieve such a feat. Regardless of what was said by Tobirama, it doesn't change what the technique does, and it certainly doesn't make Body Flicker a parent. At the very least, we could leave a Trivia note that states that Tobirama mentioned in passing that it was faster than his "shunshin" (even though I think he was actually referring to Minato's speed, not the Flying Thunder God; some people just have a habit of taking what they want from the chapter and ignoring everything else that could be a possibility). However, unless anyone here has any cold hard facts that Shunshin is anyway involved in teleportation, then we shouldn't jump the gun by adding such a technique as the parent to this one. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:58, July 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I just read the chapter again. Nowhere in it does he suggest he is referencing the Flying Thunder God. Minato arrives to the battlefield first, but not because of Flying Thunder God — he doesn't even have a tag on the battlefield prior to arriving, so it is impossible for him to have done so. Tobirama and the others arrive in the next chapter, and are visibly shown landing, not teleporting. He was commenting on Minato's raw speed. Not his Flying Thunder God Technique. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:04, July 5, 2013 (UTC)

@Fox, that's what I say as well, but some people want to coat things the way it suits them, ignoring facts. Quite certain the first time around, Tobirama was referring to Minato's speed using Body Flicker Technique. This second time, it may be a mistake--Elveonora (talk) 21:35, July 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * Totally agree with you Elve. he was referring to Minato's speed. Not the Flying Thunder God Technique. The second time could be a mistake, a mistranslation, or another misinterpretation, but there is no way, literally, zero that high-speed movement equates to anything space-time related. They're as different as the earth and the moon. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:40, July 5, 2013 (UTC)

um ten tails...saying its as different as the earth and the moon is funny...the moon and earth are created by the same rocks from somewhere near 4 billion years ago...so they are pretty close...and anyways I don't think it should be counted as a parent jutsu. or related. just thing you guys act like your the official source of the manga which you aint. kishimoto is, and when he says something it should be taken as official except when their a possibility of mistake. In that instance you should make a note in the trivia and wait for the tankobon to either fix it, or see if he makes a commit somewhere about it.--J spencer93 (talk) 22:44, July 5, 2013 (UTC) oh and I would like to add that I wasn't saying BFT and FTG are the same, I was saying as far as we know from what is in the manga, the author has hinted at some kind of connection, hence the suggested trivia. or else he is retconing the BFT which I would hope not. --Jspencer93 (talk) 06:26, July 6, 2013 (UTC) Oh my God you guys get off it. I've seen some of you run with more off less that what Tobirama has said twice now. He is referring to the FTG technique when he says BFT.The only thing that's left to be decided is whether or not he's referring to the technique itself or simply as a category.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 15:02, July 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * Except he's not referring to it. I read the chapter. If you think he's referring to it, you either don't know how to use context clues, or didn't read the page immediately before it. He was referring to Minato's speed. Flying Thunder God is a teleporation technique, not a high speed movement technique, hence it is not a Shunshin. You go from point A to point B instantly. They are completely different. They're not even a similar concept. How you could even reason that it is a Shunshin is beyond me. If we absolutely have to include it, put it in the trivia, but beyond that, leave it how it is. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 04:41, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

What if Tobirama wasn't referring to the Hirashin and he really did mean that Minato used a BFT with a clone..... so he could have used BFT with the clone, but the FTG to actually get their--Deathmailrock (talk) 19:15, July 8, 2013 (UTC)

From What We Know
From what we know, Tobirama has not been shown using the FTG markings? Should we list that he apparently doesn't need them, since he hasn't been using them? KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 01:11, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

Hasn't been seen using them, but since it's basically an integral part of the technique, I'd hold off. I mean we've basically only seen him use the FTG twice, once cutting down Izuna and once to teleport to the battlefield. Until we gather a bit more it would seem to be premature, even by my standards. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 01:15, July 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I was just seeking confirmation due to the fact it's in his page. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 01:35, July 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * When have we seen him using it to get to the battlefield? He used it to kill Izuna, and to take Hiruzen to the Hokage faces in Konoha. He's at least aware of the tags, since he commented about them in the last chapter. I just find it strange that their heads in the Hokage Mountain would be marked. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:47, July 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * I do think Tobirama uses markings like Minato but in a different manner. He's made reference to marking and the name if the technique would cease to make sense. However we shouldn't make any assumptions on that front so if you see any feel free to remove it.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 01:54, July 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * I always thought Tobirama didn't use the marks. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 11:45, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

@Omni: He didn't? I thought he did, That was my general impression for how they all got there so fast... Course he did use it to the get to the Hokage monument right enough... Though yeah, Hokage heads marked... I guess it would be useful for anyone who wanted to survey the entire village? --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 13:26, July 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Why'd anyone think the Hokage heads are marked? They just jumped on top of them, as far as I can see o.ô Seelentau 愛議 15:35, July 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * I guess it's assumed from the fact that they touched the First and Third before moving. I never thought the heads were marked though. The whole set up leaves a lot of holes for us to fill in like how exactly they got to the battlefield. Can you shed any light on the sound fx that's used there though? --Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:51, July 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * No need for that. They're obviously jumping straight to the heads, if Tobirama had brought the other two with him, they'd stand on the same head as him, wouldn't they? Seelentau 愛議 15:57, July 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's what I assumed.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 16:03, July 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * The thing is, we see Minato and Tobirama placing their hands on Hiruzen and Hashirama's shoulders, and then they simply disappear. There are no speed lines indicating movement towards any direction. Minato and Tobirama took them via FTG some distance above the heads, each dropping on their own. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:10, July 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * You can see them jump, accompanied by the sound word フッ Fu, which shows sudden movement. Seelentau 愛議 16:34, July 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * More like sudden disappearance. We see them coming down, but not them coming up. It they had simply jumped, why would Tobirama and Minato place their hands on the other two's shoulders? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:06, July 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * They meant it in a sense of "come on, let's jump to the heads and look cool", I think. Furthermore, Kishimoto isn't the guys to make such vague actions. Seelentau 愛議 17:24, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Omni, they teleported... but well, anime will make it clearer lol--Elveonora (talk) 21:14, July 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, i believe the marks are exclusive to Minato, he learned fuinjutsu with the Uzumaki and applied on FTG, thats how his FTG is faster than Tobirama's. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 23:35, July 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, a belief is nothing but a delusion most of the time because there isn't any evidence at all, otherwise it would be a fact. The fuuinjutsu applied to subjects/objects is exactly how the technique works, without it, it doesn't. It's possible Minato upgraded it by adding the "mark people" part aka. level 2, but Tobirama's weapon at least has to have the mark on it for the technique to be usable.--Elveonora (talk) 01:42, July 8, 2013 (UTC)

What if it's like this: When Tobirama invented the Jutsu, it was just a simple, offensive used Shunshin no Jutsu, meaning there was only speed, no space-time stuff or formulas. Minato, being the genius he was, upgraded the former Hiraishin to what we have now. That's why Tobirama only calls it Shunshin no Jutsu, he simply doesn't know better and only learned after his second revival of Minato's use of the technique. I know this sounds far-fetched, but it'd work, huh? Seelentau 愛議 11:00, July 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Seel that's where i was trying to get, i believe Tobirama's version doesn't have any mark, if it had, it would have been shown by now. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 17:12, July 8, 2013 (UTC)

@Seel, yes and aliens anal probe people, no disrespect, but it's an excuse rather than a plausible explanation. Why would Tobirama call an ordinary Body Flicker "Flying Thunder God" unlikely just to sound cool ... To our knowledge, Senju Clan back in the day had extensive skill in many jutsu areas, hell Tobirama and Hashirama are power monsters. Minato prodigy or not, making a named technique something completely else is cringe-worthy. That's like x character getting inspired from Naruto's fart into Kiba's face and upgrading that into an S-rank Kinjutsu by increasing its odor and density exceptionally, creating a cloud of death that could annihilate whole of universe in an instant had he wished. Seriously, some people should stick out their heads from the comfort zone of their arses, context is important. Remember, Hashirama ordered Tobirama to prepare for a transport, meaning teleportation indeed is involved.--Elveonora (talk) 20:28, July 8, 2013 (UTC)


 * I really believe Body Flicker there is being used as a category rather than the actual technique. Kishimoto has done it before and I was trying to find an instance where I remember him making an odd category for a technique (kinda like "infinite explosion ninjutsu"- who else is going to create something like that [don't say Konan >.>]). It's dumb yes that Tobirama simply doesn't just say FTG but that's just how it's been done. I have a feeling the did jump onto the statues but that's a big ass jump even for ninja. But the alternative of them teleporting and (to me it seems like Tobirama and Minato would've had to push Hashirama and Hiruzen over to their statues). Still, the info from what I can see seems accurate. It just seems like he's using BFT as a substitute for the term Jikukan Ninjutsu.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 20:45, July 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * Then he sure has lost his swag, assuming he had any considering it to be true that that's what he calls it like. I'm quite certain that about half a century ago the term "space-time ninjutsu" did already exist within Narutoverse, unless it became a convention more recently. EDIT: "looks at Cerez's profile picture" hah--Elveonora (talk) 21:28, July 8, 2013 (UTC)