Talk:Ten-Tails

species/classification again ...
Do we really must list it as a "tailed beast" ??? Because that isn't true, Tailed Beasts are creations from its chakra and the Ten-Tails was stated to have created the universe, so it's a deity. Just because it's a "beast" and has "tails" doesn't make it a tailed beast, would be like calling a human a hairless ape or a dog domesticated canine.--Elveonora (talk) 10:58, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

It's a beast, has tails, and is referred to most commonly as the Ten-Tails, not as a Deity despite having an actual name of one given to it. Yeah, pretty much makes it a Tailed Beast. As for your other point, Humans are Homo Sapiens, which are a genus of primate and being perfectly literal, a dog is a domesticated canine. Just because you can use more than one term to describe something, doesn't make one definition any more accurate than another.

Humans are Apes

Dogs are Canines

The Ten Tails is a Tailed Beast and a Deity.

You want to petition to get deity added, that's all well and good, but that doesn't stop it being a tailed beast. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 16:18, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

That's my point, it's being listed as a tailed beast only because the definition is fitting its appearance, it's a "beast" and has "tails" but the term Tailed Beasts refers to beings created from its chakra by Grandpa Hermit of Six. Classifying it as a tailed beast would be like classifying Naruto as a teenage blonde dubmass shinobi humanoid specimen from leaf village. Tailed Beasts' progeny is the "Ten-Tails" and the "Ten-Tails" can't be a tailed beast because there wasn't apparently anything before it. I take the classification as a race/species status, not definition of what something looks like. Hopefully you understand what I mean. TB are creations, Jubi has no creator for what we know. God are gods, they come in many forms, in fiction anyway--Elveonora (talk) 16:53, May 13, 2013 (UTC)

How about "Classification: Deity" and "Species: Plant" ? Perhaps we should create an article for deities in general and along with Ten-Tails, include also Jashin and the Death God there?--Elveonora (talk) 13:57, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

I would leave Jyuubi as a tailed beast, regardless if the other 9 are created from it or not. Currently, it's name is Jyuubi and even if it is the actual creator of all, it's still a tailed beast (as in a beast that has tails). Trying to reclassify it gets too deep and involved to the point it's not possible, especially considering we don't have information to confirm things such as it being a god, etc. And as for plant... just... no.--98.101.165.89 (talk) 14:12, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Kurama stated it's a god who created universe and is source of all chakra. Who is more credible? It simply isn't a tailed beast, that would be like stating god if any exist must be humanoid because we were "so" created in "his" image. Stating Jubi is a tailed beast is simply giving it false attributes and objectification, something humans are good at. Tailed Beasts aren't true/original/official beings, but creations made with Creation of All Things thus again, Ten-Tails isn't one despite its NICKname--Elveonora (talk) 14:19, May 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * Kurama did, but that doesn't change it from being a tailed beast. As for god, that's assuming the god looks like us, and it's not a flying bowl of pasta, or something Lovecraftian. Stating it is a tailed beast means it is a Tailed Beast, a beast with tails (10 to be precise), and the only name it is officially known by follows the same pattern as the other Tailed Beasts. No attributes are being taken away or false given by making such a conventional classification, either. What says it isn't a tailed beast? Because I currently, personally, do not see the logic in your points. Why can't it be a Tailed Beast, despite having godlike levels of power, so much so that it created the universe?--98.101.165.89 (talk) 14:34, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Because it wasn't created by Sage of Six Path using Creation of All Things?--Elveonora (talk) 14:53, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Which doesn't mean it isn't a Tailed Beast. Classification can have things added to it as they're introduced. It is still a beast with tails, albeit a beast with tails that is stated to have created the world and etc. --98.101.165.89 (talk) 14:55, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Then what the classification means to begin with? A description of what something looks like? Sensors are sensitive individuals who can sense chakra and identify by and even track others. Jinchuuriki are those with TB sealed into them, but Tailed Beasts aren't called "tailed beasts" because they are beasts with tails, are they? Cause that's not even true, Chomei has wings for example and Gyuki tentacles. Meaning what the term "classification" refers to is a group of individuals, Ten-Tails can't be a part of it--Elveonora (talk) 15:07, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

Point of clarification: The Ten-Tails is labeled as "Tailed Beast" because at the time of the pages creation, the Ten-Tails was simply known as the precurser of the tailed beasts and we weren't told that he was some sort of god. He is also, probably not some sort of god, at least in the context of the show, but a very old and pissed off demon. Ideally, it's classification should have been "Demon" from the start but there we go.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 16:08, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Why do you assume otherwise? The last we were told was that it's a god who more or less created the whole Narutoverse (in-universe-wise, out it's Kishimoto of course :-I), so unless Kurama lied or doesn't know any better than we do, it's true and there's no reason to doubt it because we list what we are told not what we think. The most correct classifications I see for it are "deity, progenitor, creator" all meaning the same things contextually, nothing else. For the species, biologically it resembles a plant-animal hybrid, but I don't know a term for such a creature so... plant--Elveonora (talk) 16:36, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Because we were also told it was a natural disaster, a giant, and a Deidarabotchi which is a fancy name for a demon. We've also called the First and Third Gods, but they weren't exactly deities.
 * Anyway we are arguing semantics and I honestly care very very little about this topic. I was just pointing out why the Ten-Tails was classified as a Tailed Beast.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:43, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * I have no issue with leaving the thing as a tailed beast it is just a generic classification we use for them, because essentially it is a name created by people for them and not what they are. Sometimes, you guys take things like classifications too literal, should we also then not classify the nine tailed beasts as demi gods? As where are you guys getting the information that the Ten-Tails is a plant? Just because it's mouth looks like one? The bulb on his back looks plant-like as well, doesn't make the beast a plant...--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 17:06, May 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * A lot of things are called "god" in this series, Elve. The Sage of the Six Paths, Hashirama, and even Hiruzen Sarutobi. That just means that's what people called them. Also, I cross referenced where you've been citing that the Ten-Tails "created the universe". No, it wasn't even stated to have created the planet. It was said that it was the origin of all life on the planet. Those are two very different concepts. Secondly, you seem to be overlooking the fact that the Tailed Beasts, throughout Naruto are referred to as demons. It is more likely, considering this is a Japanese series (and one of its names is Deidarabotchi), based on Japanese mythology, that the Ten-Tails is a demon, like Ultimate said, than some sort of "god". Either way, Tailed Beast does for a good description, but if it is absolutely demanded, we can change it to demon — but I don't think anyone is ready to classify it as a "god". And it is certainly not a freaking plant. Its mouth may look like one, and yes it has a bulb on its back, but that could just as well make it a freaking Venasaur. Let's leave speculation out of this. I really don't see why any of this matters, but, oh well. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:18, May 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * So Zero-Tails isn't a tailed beast (ignoring it's movie-only status, let's say it's canon) but Ten-Tails is? So if the term is just generic, then Nine-Tailed Naruto Clone and that thing the Uzumaki Clan leader sealed in anime should be one too. That's why the term isn't and shouldn't be generic, rather it has to refer to creation by grandpa sage of six. And no, Tailed Beasts aren't demi-gods because they have a creator, Jubi doesn't for what we know but itself is The Creator. @Ten Tailed Fox, it's been stated to be source of all chakra and progeny of everything that exists. For the plant thing, well, it has a physical form, there are biological kingdoms and since it resembles a plant-animal hybrid, it most closely looks like a something that would belong among plants since I don't think such a being does exist (plant-animal hybrid) in real life thus no term for it. EDIT: Hashirama, Sage of Six and Hiruzen were referred to as "god of shinobi" not "gods"--Elveonora (talk) 17:28, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

(Restarting the indents) No, canon or not, the Zero-Tails is not a Tailed Beast. It has no tails. Those are sorta required for Tailed Beasts. The Ten-Tails, as it so happens, has ten of them — more than any of the others, near as I can figure, so I'd say he fits that description pretty well. I don't know what you're talking about with the other two, so I can respond to those, but it would seem you're using anime-only content to justify classifying a demon as some sort of plant-god. Also, Elve, it really does say its the originator of life on the planet, not the planet, not the universe. Double-check your sources here. Not that it matters either way. Its not a plant, no matter how much it looks like one, and I don't think you're going to convince anyone here to label it as such. Might be a worthy triva note, but until Kishi comes out saying that the Ten-Tails is the pissed off "god of flowers", I'm not buying it. Its a demon. Beasts like it have been called demons througout the series, and it was even introduced as the "primordial demon". So yes, I'm not buying your argument. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 17:34, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * My point is that if we classify the Ten-Tails as a "tailed beast" then any monster with tails should we. We label species for Kurama as Kitsune, Shukaku as Tanuki so why not for the Ten-Tails? Also they were never stated to be demons, it's only what people of Narutoverse believed them to be, just like Suna believed Shukaku to be a corrupted priest, don't mix in-universe myths with out-universe facts please--Elveonora (talk) 17:42, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Zero-Tails is a misnomer, I thought we were all clear on this...? You're also taking the word "generic" too literal, within the Narutoverse Tailed Beast does not mean the same thing as a creature with a tail, it in all cases refers to the (for want of another word) tailed beasts. I can understand maybe classifying it as "Primordial Tailed Beast" but I'm not for calling it a god.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 17:44, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm for calling it anything but a tailed beast, so you don't want to call it god but demon yes? There's nothing to suggest it's a demon or that demons exist in this fiction for that matter--Elveonora (talk) 17:46, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Only reason I'd call any of them demons is because it'd sound cool, not because they were actual demons and that's what they were thought to be a long time ago (hence why everybody was X-Tail Demon Y). I don't think many traces of that are left on the wikia, with the exception of possibly Kurama who was called such.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 17:51, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Finally... I thought I'm talking to a wall. It's a matter what is true, not what is thought to be true. They were also thought to be primitive and natural occurrences of sort, yet know it's false now. Things are getting changed and we update them as plot moves forward. And it's sad that I'm the only one who cares... if no one cared about anything, then this place would have looked badly, filled with fanon or not even existed anymore/in the first place. Also the article itself says that according to Kurama it's a god, so why not to list it as one? Another case it says tailed beasts were created from its chakra, yet we list it as one too. I sense lots of bias, leaving untrue information around for whatever reason (or lack of thereof it seems)--Elveonora (talk) 18:12, May 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * Would you be happy if, instead of corrupting this page, we update the other pages so everything matches and reflects how it should be? That makes more sense to me than putting frivolous things for the classification. Everyone cares, but we don't believe in the same things as you do. I, for one, don't think it is an issue and is how it should be, yet you do not. See the problem? --98.101.165.89 (talk) 18:21, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, the problem is that some are okay with it being false because it's generally accepted as such so there's not much need to change it. It's not a matter of belief, but what is true. The introduction section for Jubi used to say it's a demon, I changed that. Now I'm discussing or rather arguing as it seems that the classification is also being changed--Elveonora (talk) 18:26, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

(TMI - Too many indents). The problem is you're making a fuss about something that is not incorrect or false. Changing it from demon doesn't mean it's true -- you believe it is, but it had been called a demon before, so that wouldn't be incorrect. But by all account and standards that you're desiring, with a lot of delusion, then we should leave the classification completely blank as the Jyuubi is nothing that we know of. Except that what is actually true is that it is a Tailed Beast. It may be the original Tailed Beast, whose power created all the life on whatever scale you desire, but it still a tailed beast that follows the pattern that the other 9 have been built into by Kish. There's absolutely nothing wrong here, and that's not a belief.--98.101.165.89 (talk) 18:33, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sharingan has been stated by Kakashi to be delivered from Byakugan, Nagato has been believed by Jiraiya to have been Sage of Six Paths reborn and the Rinnegan is nothing but a mutation, doesn't make them true. Yes, TB were called demons, but they were/are still called and believed to be many things by people of Narutoverse, falsely I must add. Also can you link me to where the word "demon" is ever used in reference to Jubi? I don't remember such thing, while I remember it being called a god.--Elveonora (talk) 18:39, May 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * Kakashi mentioned that there are people who believe Sharigan may be derived. It was not an assertion or a matter-of-fact. Nagato;Jiraiya;Rinnegan -- extraneous. They are called demons and by all rights, they can be demons. Why can't they be demons? Demons aren't the same thing in other cultures as they are for Christians. Your points do not contribute to your argument, sadly. As for Jyuubi being called a demon, someone already pointed it out, and its also in the article as a name used to reference it (which was also pointed out above by someone). And, by your completely valid point -- just because its called a god, doesn't mean it is... right? You kinda contradicted yourself, there.--98.101.165.89 (talk) 18:45, May 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Exactly! That's why I oppose the term "demon" everyone interprets it differently, also Kishimoto incorporates elements from many myths and religions into his manga + adding his own touch, so calling it a demon possibly causes misinterpretation between individuals. Kurama is more reliable than anyone because it's who knows how old, met Sage of Six Paths himself and is a "child" of the very creature we are discussing, so it should know more about it than anyone.--Elveonora (talk) 19:04, May 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * Its not a god anymore than it is a flower. It is the original tailed beast, which is why it has that classification. I, once again, don't see why this is an issue. I don't think we really need to get into the specifics of what the beast is, because it hasn't been explicitly stated. Kurama calls it a god, Obito called it a demon and the original tailed beast, Kurama also called it Daidarbotchi, which is a type of demon, so Tailed beast is going to have to do for now. Until Kishi gives us a more explicit classification of what it is, it is the most correct classification we have that doesn't dip into the realm of fan fiction and speculation. This is a pointless conversation that will get the site, nor the article, nowhere. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 19:08, May 15, 2013 (UTC)


 * How about progenitor of tailed beasts and we move Ten-Tails from [] to similar cases or create a separate section for it from the other 9?--Elveonora (talk) 19:38, May 15, 2013 (UTC)

No, its not a similar case. Its the original Tailed Beast. Tailed Beast works just fine for now, until Kishi decides (if he decides) to tell us exactly what it is. The only thing the series tells us is the speculation of what it is from Obito (tailed beast, demon), Madara (demon), and Kurama's (god, demon) standpoint, and they're all conflicting, meaning you cannot pick and choose who is correct and who isn't. Other than that, we have noting concrete. Your speculation won't help bridge this gap. The classification we have right now is fine. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 03:56, May 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay... I won't push on for the time being. I just wanted a change so it's clear there's a distinction between the 9 creatures and Jubi--Elveonora (talk) 11:51, May 16, 2013 (UTC)

Jutsu
why is it that only tenpenchi is in its jutsu box, i mean it used a bijuudama right? 112.208.156.223 (talk) 05:06, May 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * As it says on the main page, we have some bugs in the infobox system. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 05:07, May 16, 2013 (UTC)

Nine Tomoes
In chapter 632, it's eye once again displayed nine tomoes, I think it was worth of notice since it's growing closer to it's original form.World Master (talk) 13:06, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * The detail wasn't even put on the eye, how can you tell?--Elveonora (talk) 13:11, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * The last chapter (646) make clear like the nine tomoes are missing in the Juubi because still not full matured. So I think that we could fix the sentence in its section appearence "For unknown reasons after its revival, it was brought back with six tomoe in its eye instead of nine,[...]"--JK88 (talk) 18:35, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

In Chapter 670 pg 11, it was shown that the Shinju actually had more than 9 tomoes when it turned it's eye's; it had at least 12, maybe even more being concealed; so it is only when it's looking straight that it seems to have 9--Deathmailrock (talk) 19:40, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

Infobox image
So, the old image of the Ten-Tails which is its first début should be used since the cover of volume #64 and the coloured release of chapter #638 show that it has red eye instead of its purple eye, right? http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a553/anaspet06/Shakhmootssign_zps2a261e68.png (Contact) 11:32, July 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * ...What?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:21, July 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Should we use this instead of the current one? Because the current one seems wrong according to the volume #64 cover and the coloured release of chapter #638. Get it??  http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a553/anaspet06/Shakhmootssign_zps2a261e68.png  (Contact) 15:30, July 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh. Titans no. Basically that is a terribad black mass with a red eye where the animators failed spectacularly with a shadow. The current one is more in line with with this picture from the manga.
 * Also, the eye is red in both images.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:10, July 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, I got it .. I know that Ik-Hyun Eum screwed it in that episode. Thank you for clarifying that.  http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a553/anaspet06/Shakhmootssign_zps2a261e68.png  (Contact) 17:11, July 24, 2013 (UTC)

Wood Release
I know this has already been discussed, but Obito's latest attack, the "Wood Release: Flowering Tree" uses the same plants that the Ten-Tails emerged from its mouth. They are also producing Tailed Beast Balls just like the Ten-Tails. Are we going to add the Wood Release kekkei genkai to the Ten-Tails, or remove the Wood Release from the flowering tree and call it a Tailed Beast Skill? Omega64 (talk) 18:02, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Unless the chapter itself called it Wood Release, I don't see how could anyone come to that conclusion so hastily--Elveonora (talk) 18:05, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well someone created a page already, although it is italicized. I just thought that, in the interest of consistency, that we either change it to a Tailed Beast Skill or make the Ten-Tails a Wood Release user. Honestly, I kind of felt the Wood Release comes from the Ten-Tails anyway, but I agree it needs to be said first. I just wanted to make it known that the article was there more or less and what it was implying. Omega64 (talk) 18:19, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Let's try keeping the discussion in one talk page, avoid fragmentation. I already replied at the jutsu's talk page. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:37, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

(Reset indent) The Ten-Tails is not using Wood Release. Obito used Wood Release: Cutting Technique. You can even see him calling out its name. Of course he can't use it on that scale alone; he channeled it through the Ten-Tails' hands. Its not that hard to do. You claim channeling has never been done before, but it has. Obito, Nagato, and Madara have channeled techniques through corpses (Six Paths of Pain) and black rods respectively. And you forget that, by himself, Nagato can't use Shinra Tensei on a massive scale, but through his Deva Path body, he could use it large enough to blow up a village. Secondly, the technique you keep trying to use as proof of a second instance, isn't an instance at all. It's Obito activating a Wood Technique, and shaping it in the likeness of the Ten-Tails' flowers. Wood Release is the kekkei genkai of Hashirama Senju and no one other than himself, and those possessing his DNA have ever, ever been shown using it. Are you really suggesting the Ten-Tails has his DNA? Nope. But guess who does? Obito; who is behind both instances of Wood being used in your examples. Case in point. That's all I'll say on this matter. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 01:23, August 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * Let me break down the wrongs on your theory: First off, a KKG works on a blood/DNA/genetic level...so even if Obito did channel his technique, he couldn't do that unless the Ten-Tails had the proper genes to activate the WR. Channel or no channel, it was the beast's body that was used. Second off, Madara never used the Six Paths of Pain. Third, Nagato was the only one who channeled the Six Paths Techniques through his Six Paths of Pain. Fourth in order to do that, he need to use the receivers as a way to transmit his chakra and channel the techniques. Fifth, Hashirama was the only known natural user of his time...but the Ten-Tails is older than that...reffered as the creator of the world...add to his ever expanding plant-like nature and maybe it was the origin of the WR, not Hashi. So your case in point isn't all that solid. Darksusanoo (talk) 01:38, August 20, 2013 (UTC)


 * Actually, its dead solid. Here's why. First, I don't know what on earth your talking about with Kekkei Genkai, Obito channeled his Rinnegan and Sharingan through his Six Paths, while Nagato channeled his Rinnegan through his own. You forget, Obito was connected to the Ten-Tails at the time via a root, so channeling techniques and chakra through it is easily accomplished. Obito could channel the Six Paths Technique through his Paths, but both Naruto and B noted that he didn't since they already knew how to counter those techniques, and therefore, would've been useless. Hashirama is the only known user of Wood Release outside others with his DNA, so, until you can prove the Ten-Tails has it, it doesn't have Wood Release. Furthermore, I'll say it again. Obito has the DNA, and he's the only one you see initiating those Wood Release techniques. He calls out their names/summons them himself. The Ten-Tails is little more than the gun he shoots the ammunition through. There is no evidence otherwise. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:46, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hum...for that Obito needed the rods to channel the technique...the rods were designed to channel chakra, to serve as a lightning rod of sorts to connect Obito and Nagato to use their techniques...the roots, as reffered by Madara were to control the Ten-Tails, unless you can prove otherwise, that the roots had the same function as the rods...perhaps if Obito had used a rod to channel his technique. So again...the wood spikes were created from the Ten-Tails body...in order for that to happen, it needed to have the right DNA to trigger that. Darksusanoo (talk) 01:53, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

Well then...now we have quite a shift on the horizon...hell the Ten-Tails was originally a tree...now does anyone else have any doubt that the thing can use Wood Release? Darksusanoo (talk) 11:44, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Wood? Yeah. Wood Release? I can kinda see how it would, but it's a sentient tree, technically it's attacking with its body, which would technically make its attacks taijutsu. I no longer care enough to have long discussions about it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:57, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Well there's a thing we can be sure, due the beast's nature its obvious that exists an affinity between the Shinju and the Wood Release, which it explains why the user can channelize Wood Release techniques through the bijuu. I propose mention this affinity in the article and explain it's unknown if the beast can use the Wood Release by itself. Adept-eX (talk) 22:12, September 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * Right. And Susanoo has an affinity for Blaze Release techs because Sasuke can channel them through it. Useless information about nothing is useless information about nothing. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 22:55, September 23, 2013 (UTC)

Shinju
Since the tree is the tt's real form and it is called Shinju... wouldn't it be best to move the article? Seelentau 愛議 11:30, September 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * /shrug Sure. This way all the tailed beasts got names. Shukaku, Matatabi, Isobu, Son Goku, Kokou, Saiken, Chomei, Gyuki, Kurama, Shinju. Yeah seems fine.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:33, September 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * On second thought I'm more up in the air. Damn thing was "called" the Shinju and worshiped, then when it got pissed off and started walking did they call it Ten-Tails. That makes it just another moniker for the beast. Basically, we can go either or.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:52, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Shinju is its most official name tho. When I said it's a god not a tailed beast and a tree/plant I was looked upon like an idiot--Elveonora (talk) 11:54, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's the thing though, technically it's only "most official" because its first/last form was a tree. As I said, when it started walking around then it was Ten-Tails. Either way, neither name are "correct" so to speak, hence either or.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:56, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Shinju = Name when in tree form

Datara etc. = Nicknames for incomplete form (form w/o fruit)

Ten-Tails = Nickname to fit the tailed beast names

Gedō Mazō = Madara's name for the empty shell

As you can see, every name describes the tree when it's missing something. Only Shinju doesn't. So that's its real name, isn't it? Unless there's some god hiding inside the tree who is called Seelentau or so... Seelentau 愛議 12:02, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd call it Shinju as well. Would require renaming the chapter as well though. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:57, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

2 things
The whole story doesn't explain how come non-human animals have chakra too. Unless every species ate the fruit over billions of years before the woman did or even worse, humans had intercourse with other species and managed to produce an offspring, that would explain the chakra and them having high intelligence and ability of speech.

Second, now it's more or less confirmed that the Rinnegan is "eye of god" the Sage either got it after becoming the tree's host or was born with it, but the latter still means he got it as a result of the tree's power.--Elveonora (talk) 12:04, September 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * Madara's story could also be complete and total BS. Or considering how the Sage taught ninjutsu to the rest of the world, the large intelligent animals followed suit.
 * And when and how the Sage got the eyes mean very little, unless you want it added to the Rinneagan article that it's some a Tailed Beast Skill or something.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:08, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Isn't it? We list Roshi's Lava Release as a tailed beast skill instead of bloodline limit--Elveonora (talk) 12:09, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Because it was said that he got it from Yonbi. It wasn't said that the RS got his Rinnegan from Jubi. He could have it from his mother, though. Animals maybe know by instinct how to mold chakra. Seelentau 愛議 12:11, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Rinnegan requires chakra to work. Having it from his mother means he got it from the Ten-Tails hence it being origin of chakra. I wouldn't be surprised if we learned that Sage of Six Paths was born of virgin birth from the princess, making a tree his divine father. --Elveonora (talk) 12:20, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * The allusion to the Bible is obvious, yeah. I mean it like this, though: She borrowed the Chakra, it was not her own, so no Rinnegan either. Then she gave birth to her son, who got the Chakra, but this time, it was is own, that's why his eyes reacted and formed the Rinnegan... or so. I mean the TT doesn't have the Rinnegan, but even a step above that, huh? It looks like every child-birth destroys the Rinnegan ("Shinjugan" => Rinnegan => "Uzugan"). Seelentau 愛議 12:25, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * By the way, can someone edit the trivia portion to reflect that the Tree of Knowledge is from the Judeo-Christian Bible? Both Judaism and Islam have the same story, saying it is from the Christian bible is erroneous. And also, if you want to make the Rinnegan a tailed beast power, wouldn't Chakra in itself be a tailed beast ability? --Mantequilla219 (talk) 16:45, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * You need to check your facts. Judaism, Islam, and Judeo-Christian beliefs are all Abrahamic religions, thus why they are mentioned as such. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:19, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * As to the question of how animals and others have chakra when only the princess ate the fruit, since this plot development seems to be based on the Bible, let's use this comparison. According to the Bible, when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, it didn't just affect them. Because of their sin, corruption entered the world and infected every part of creation. Maybe plucking the fruit from the Shinju caused some of its chakra to leak out and infect every living creature, causing them to gain their own chakra. I know it's just speculation, but hey, the question was asked and that's my theory. We'll see if an official response is ever given. Raidra (talk) 19:14, September 25, 2013 (UTC)

3 more things aka. what am I missing?

 * Just thought it's noteworthy that it after all upgraded from 6 tomoe to 9 in its final form.
 * That Obito is still its jinchuuriki (or not? 0_0) having the form and all despite it being outside of his body.
 * Where did it use water, earth and wood releases???--Elveonora (talk) 13:06, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe it just opened its eyes wider?
 * Just like Naruto can do it, somehow.
 * Obito used it through the TT, also the plant from a few chapters ago was decided to be Wood Release. Not that we could really "decide" on what is true and what is not... Seelentau 愛議 13:09, September 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well given the fact that it turned into a titanic tree with expanding, chakra-sucking roots, should end that debate by now. I think Obito is still connected to the thing, this is maybe his version of Tailed Beast Mode. Darksusanoo (talk) 13:48, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Maybe on a similiar note, can we add that this tree can absorb chakra under unique traits, cuz it kinda absorbs chakra, right? xD--Omojuze (talk) 16:03, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Wood Release Techniques
Well, since we now have proof that the TT can use Wood Release, i'm wondering if it should be listed as a user of the techniques we saw it use. The Cutting Technique and the flower tree that can shoot Tailed Beast Balls. Any opinions on that matter? Darksusanoo (talk) 13:53, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * We have proof? Seelentau 愛議 13:57, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Other than seeing the thing, firing giant wood spikes, and Obito producing a tree that can fire TTB? The original argument against this was that the TT couldn't use WR, as it was solely Hashi's KKG, and since Obito was the only other confirmed user of the WR, it was assumed that Obito used the beast as a medium. Now we know that the beast can use WR as it was originally a giant tree. When the Cutting Technique was used Obito wasn't even it's jinchuriki, and i doubt he had the power to produce a TTB firing tree...so if he can't the only one who can it the Ten-Tails. Darksusanoo (talk) 14:08, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Just because its true physical form is a tree-like being doesn't mean it can use wood release.--Elveonora (talk) 14:12, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * So nowadays, being a tree (not even one made of wood) equals wood release? Seelentau 愛議 14:12, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think you should look at that one backwards @Seel and @Elve...nowadays, even after becoming a tree, people still refuse to see it as Wood Release...so please tell me...what other method exists in this series that allows one to turn their body into a tree? Also @Seel, you don't know if the thing is made of wood at this point or not. Darksusanoo (talk) 14:16, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * I know that the Ten-Tails we know is not a tree, or do trees look like frogs or weird demons now, while being greyish in colour, as opposed to the brown coloured trees? Seelentau 愛議 14:19, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Maybe not in it's beast form...but it was one originally and it apparently can reassume said form...and what does that have to do with anything? I'm discussing that since it was originally a tree, it can turn into one, the biggest one shown in the series and since the only way to do that is through WR, plus the fact that this is the third time we've seen a connection between the TT and WR, that it can use it and the techniques i've mentioned. Unless you have a better theory. Darksusanoo (talk) 14:26, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

So what do you call those broken branches of the ten tails' true form? Flesh that just happens to break like wood? MangekyoSasuke (talk) 14:29, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * So you admit that it's just a theory and therefore not something that should be stated as a fact in any article? Sounds fine to me. Seelentau 愛議 14:31, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Ok guys, I have to say that this should not even be debatable. Being a living tree =/= wood release. This isnt an automatic change, and whomever made that addition to the Juubi's page was being impulsive. Being the "God Tree" made of chakra, it should be obvious to us, that it is alive and able to control it's body. Simply, it is a "characteristic of the Juubi/God Tree, just like how roots and the Mayfly are a characteristic to Zetsu. This is pure speculation to the highest degree, folks. Until we actually see any specification and references to Hashirama's unique (may i remind you) kekkei genkai from anyone who knows anything about it (Madara), this topic shouldnt be commented on anymore. We, the wiki, dont go on and on about speculation. This is especially true when it blantantly contradicts what we've done in the past. KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 14:34, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * And what we did in the past is just plain wrong. It was already confirmed that Zetsu could not only use wood release, but was made from Hashi's cells. Why the mayfly, which was specifically said to be able to allow movement through earth, wood and plants, wasn't said to be wood release. I'm sorry, but being stubborn and having to have everything explained explicitly out to you is just plain stupid. Does no one on this wiki have reading comprehension? Anyone? Cause sometimes I see it, then sometimes its thrown out the window. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 14:42, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * The beast isn't using wood release, it's a tree. It's not the same.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:45, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oww for Pete's sake, really? First off, @Koto where was it ever, at any moment stated that Hasho's KKG was unique to him only? Also as of now we've had three occassions of the TT using Wood Release...hell the first one should have been obvious, as it fired wood spikes from it's body. But that was pushed. Second we had a tree that could fire TTB. That was pushed as well. Now we've had the thing turn into a tree, and you're still trying to push it. Also @Seel don't mock me as a way to try and dodge the issue. I asked if you have a better explanation and your answer shows you don't have one. But i'd like to hear the voices of other editors, either for or against. Darksusanoo (talk) 14:48, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Why would I have to explain what was stated in the manga and what was made up by you? You say "Guys, it's like this...", then I say "No, because there is no proof in the manga for that." and then you say "Proove me that I'm wrong.". Why should I? Proove me that you're right, you're the one who's brought up that theory, not me. Seelentau 愛議 14:51, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * No i gave the examples and provided an explanation...you didn't even bother to do so. I followed the series own structure...we've never seen anyother method of tree creation that wasn't WR, especially on this scale...i never made up anything...i just took what the manga has been shoving down out eyeballs and actually noticed what it was. Darksusanoo (talk) 15:23, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

It's a tree by default, so stating that regenerating back to its original form equals wood release is just plain wrong.--Elveonora (talk) 15:35, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Ok, Darksusanoo, I want you to take a step back and understand want, Cerez, Sele, Elveo, and I are saying. Being the God Tree =/= Wood Release. By no means are they the same thing. And are you seriously going to tell me that it was not stated time and time again, to be Hashirama's unique kekkei genkai? Really? And for the most part, your only argument has been " 3 Occasion ". Ok first off, that's just plain wrong.
 * "1st Occasion" - Wood Cutting technique - We have already discussed that this is OBITO channeling his WR, through the juubi, while connected to it.
 * "2nd Occasion" - Tailed Beast Ball Tree - Again, Obito using his WR, but this time, combined with the Juubi's powers.
 * "3rd Occasion" - Turning itself into it's original form (the God Tree) - Again, not WR, it's original form.
 * So, what do all youre cherished points amount to? Pure, Grade - A, Speculation and Fanfiction. We have explained those 2 prior occurences, and have 4 people telling you youre wrong at this moment. Do i think youre entirely wrong? Based off what we know, YES. Is it impossible? No, and if youre right i will gladly appologise. But untill then, lay down your arms. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 16:05, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Except all that went downthe gutter with this new information. We should be rethinking exactly how all of those things happened. We should be using new information to rationalize what happened before, not using old rationalizations to attempt to rationlize new facts. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 16:23, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

See my last comment at. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:57, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Wait so it looks like wood release, it smells like wood release but it's not just making a point from what I've seen from the last 100 chaptersWilliam000 (talk)
 * It's... a... tree... If a stone rolls over, it's using Earth Release then I suppose? Don't be daft.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 19:39, September 21, 2013 (UTC)'

I wrote a long passage out it got deleted by mistakes as I was about to publish so call I will say now is : Is it a sentient rock?, then yes yes very much so @CereWilliam000 (talk)
 * Okay friend, I'll make you a deal, if and when we find out the tree is manipulating water and earth nature transformations to create wood, then it'll be added to its article as an ability.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 01:51, September 22, 2013 (UTC)

Sure but one last thing at @Cere Not everyone who has wood style that has both earth and water nature have even used water jutsu so even if they have the nature that doesn't mean they have jutsu for for example we have only seen Hashirama use wood release jutsu not water or earth. Why I'm stating this is because with the state the Shinju is in don't expect it to be using water or earth realease just use your common sense from when OBITO WAS USING THE WOOD STYLE THROUGH IT, and I don't mean that in a wrong way btw someone should add tailed beast arms to the juubi we only saw obito use it but of course it was from the juubi/shnju just like when he was using the wood release thanks for being SevilleWilliam000 (talk)

We're not saying they have to use earth and water jutsu, but Wood Release, as an advanced nature, is created by using both natures at the same time. Shinju, as a tree, does not necessarily do that, as it is made of wood already. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:14, September 23, 2013 (UTC) @Omni what does it already being made of wood have to do with anything doesn't the juubi/shiju have all the different nature chakra's and in its beast form its seems to be made of a plant like substance just like zetsu that also basically a plant and in its beast form it can which seems to be plant like it can fire beast bombs anyway before you guy get pissed at me I will leave it as iswe all have seen the chapter going long back I'm know what I've seen so that's itWilliam000 (talk) 23:16, September 23, 2013 (UTC)

If it's not using earth and water chakra to create wood, then by definition, it's not Wood Release. Nowhere it's mentioned that Shinju has each individual beasts' chakra. Do you see it listed with Lava Release from Son? Fire from Son and Matatabi? Any chakra nature ever used canonically by any tailed beast? I don't. Zetsu gets Wood Release because we know he was created with Hashirama's cells. What does Tailed Beast Ball have anything to do with this? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:44, September 23, 2013 (UTC)

LOL @Omni I was talking about it the origin of chakra so it must have all natures when did I talk about the other tailed beast chakra but you do have a point it maybe able to use there powers and lol why would they be listed if we haven't seen it use them and the beast bomb well you have no prob as I can see listing that even if it was under control when it used it but you have a prob with listing the wood jutsu it used when it was also under control so why isn't the beast bombs obito's jutsu then and not the juubi lo I'm being sarcastic and the juubi was the first wood user if I'm right which I probably I'm and hashirama gain that power down the line kind of like how the uchiha got it's eyeWilliam000 (talk) 01:29, September 24, 2013 (UTC)

Chakra may naturally lean towards a certain nature, but each shinobi must still actively mould it into a specific nature transformation for it to have any element's characteristics. If you store chakra anywhere, it will not change into a nature on its own. TBB is listed because it is by definition a tailed beasts' attack, and Shinju has used it. Obito is listed as a TBB user, I don't know where you're getting that he isn't. He's used it since becoming a jinchuriki. The Wood Release technique was Obito's technique, the same he used in the flashback. He just channelled it though the tailed beast. That's like Naruto using senjutsu while transformed as Kurama. Kurama isn't using senjutsu, but Naruto is channelling it through Kurama. You're still not getting that for Shinju, using wood in an attack does not necessarily equal using Wood Release. That's what you're failing to understand. Could it be that it's using Wood Release? Yes. Is it likely? Yes. Can we say it for certain with the currently available information? No. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:52, September 24, 2013 (UTC)

Sharingan and Tsukuyomi
Considering that Infinite tsukuyomi is going to be performed through its eye, the jutsu should be added to its list, and either it has both the sharingan and rinnegan as a kekkei genkai, or its ability to use at least sharingan techniques should be mentioned in its abilities section. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 18:05, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Except, since it hasn't done either yet, nor do we know exactly how Madara is going to go about making it preform his Sharingan techniques, nothing will be added nowhere until we do. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:09, September 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * He just explained it in this chapter. What are you talking about? And regardless of how Madara plans to wrestle control from Obito, Obito's going to try and do it as its jinchuuriki. So I don't see your point. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 18:42, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

We don't add stuff that is as unclear as this. Simple as that. Seelentau 愛議 19:09, September 10, 2013 (UTC)

Infinite Tsukuyomi Basis
I wanted to point out, the idea of this seems based off the phrase "Kyōka Suigetsu" (鏡花水月, Mirror Flower, Water Moon). The Ten-Tails has the large flower with its eye in it, an eye like the Mirror Eye that will reflect it on the moon to cast the illusion. Benknightprime (talk) 01:36, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * The phrase describes the reflection of the moon on a water surface and flowers reflecting in a mirror. We don't have any water or mirrors here, do we? Also, the real meaning behind that phrase is "something that's there, but not tangible". I don't know how that would have anything to do with the tree and the moon. Nice idea, however. Seelentau 愛議 08:42, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, doesn't the phrase "something that's there, but not tangible" describe an illusionary world created by genjutsu, which is what an Infinite Tsukuyomi would be, pretty well? Raidra (talk) 15:21, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * If the moon is the water and the eye is reflected on it, then it would be the eye that isn't tangible, not the created Genjutsu. Seelentau 愛議 16:43, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

Just wondering?
Ok I know this is basically what others have said but really we have all seen the God Tree/Juubi perform wood release why haven't those other jutsu been added to its page, and I have always wonder is it the humans of the world who call the Juubi/God Tree a God or Demon and couldn't it simply be a non mystical creature of that world that has just been labeled?William000 (talk)

Wood? Yeah. Wood Release? I can kinda see how it would, but it's a sentient tree, technically it's attacking with its body, which would technically make its attacks taijutsu. It is basically retaking its own chakra with its "limbs".--Marc Zaddy (talk) 04:14, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

Marc just because its attacking with its body doesn't make it Taijutsu Kimmimaru could send bones that are apart of his body as a projectile at a target that's his keke genki ninjutsu. The Shinju was using ninjutsu.William000 (talk) 22:17, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

I didn't mean it in the literal sense. I simply meant that the Shinju was just using it's "limbs" to absorb chakra. I only used taijutsu for lack of a better term. Also, everything Kimimaro did was taijutsu, except for shooting bones from his fingertips. His Kekkei Genkai is not ninjutsu or taijutsu it can be used for both, but was primarily used for taijustu by Kimimaro.--Marc Zaddy (talk) 05:45, September 12, 2013 (UTC)

Marc, I'd appreciate if you didn't blatantly copy my argument from above topics and present it as your own. William, like Marc said, Kimimaro's kekkei genkai can be used for both ninjutsu and taijutsu. Out of all his canonical techniques, only one is considered ninjutsu, all others are classified as taijutsu. His Ten-Fingers Drilling Bullets was classified as taijutsu, the one which was ninjutsu was Dance of the Seedling Fern. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:05, September 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * I originally wanted to warn him that copying someone else' comments isn't nice, but shrugs, not my business, I'm not his parent--Elveonora (talk) 14:08, September 12, 2013 (UTC)

Omnibender, I'm sorry if I offended you by stealing argument. But, I only did it to get your original point across. I figured if I restated something from a topic similar to this he would have noticed the answer was already there. Again, I apologize it won't happen again.--Marc Zaddy (talk) 01:15, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

Error?
"As noted by Kurama, the Ten-Tails lacks a consciousness to possess feelings or ideals, thus making it impossible for those to sense it through such means as those that involve detecting negative feelings or chakra."

In the most recent chapter, it says the God Tree got mad at the woman for stealing the chakra, but it's not supposed to have feelings. Is this simply an error? Zelwolf (talk) 16:01, September 11, 2013 (UTC)Zelwolf


 * Have you ever poked a dog with a stick and watched as it bit down onto your arm? Did you look at your arm, with a dog hanging off of it and think "Wow I really pissed it off."
 * Now imagine a sentient tree, and you poked it with a stick, followed by it growing ten tails and going on a worldwide rampage.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:34, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

But I thought the point of the Ten Tails was that it lacked feelings or ideals, so it couldn't be sentient. If you poked it with a stick, it wouldnt get angry, because it is not capable for it. Zelwolf (talk) 18:15, September 11, 2013 (UTC)Zelwolf
 * ^This. Seelentau 愛議 18:38, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

Kurama was seemingly wrong. Or perhaps it has no mind on its own while being a tree and only once its fruit got eaten it automatically transformed in response. Another contradiction is that it's supposedly source of all chakra, sucks chakra, has tailed beasts' chakras, yet it's natural energy alone and can't be sensed--Elveonora (talk) 20:57, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

It very well may be an error. Would it be possible to get the raws for a potential better translation? I'm sure it'll be exactly how it already is (an error), but there might be a minute difference. My money is on an error, though. In the real world, it is possible to not be sentient and yet still respond in an "angry" way, but the anger is only perceived by an outside perspective (a human observing something). But I doubt Kish is expressing that. Tl;dr - it is an error, most likely. --Taynio (talk) 21:07, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * This is my speculation alone, but natural energy seemingly allows shapeshifting stuff and a tree turned into humanoid creature with eye, ear, mouth, arms, etc. In my opinion in response to humans around it, in other words, it simply evolved and adapted to threat so took on form more alike its surroundings. So "it got mad" is simply an exaggeration, rather it was a defense mechanism like for example plants have in nature, without a brain and only then it gained consciousness over time--Elveonora (talk) 21:15, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

I like that theory, Elveonora. It makes sense. It still could just be Kish not thinking of what he said before about it, or Kurama was simply wrong. We'll never know probably Zelwolf (talk) 01:55, September 12, 2013 (UTC)Zelwolf

Kurama said that the Juubi was akin to a force of nature. What the princess did was basically trigger the butterfly effect by taking power away from nature and using it for the sole benefit of humanity. Nature is all about balance and when the princess gave humanity the potential to attain world peace, the forces of nature had to respond in a very big way. Basically the Juubi is an environmentalist's wet dream.Malcasablanca (talk) 09:01, September 15, 2013 (UTC)

Shinju/Jūbi
IF we are sticking to call it the Shinju, it is incorrect to use the image of the Jūbi, either use the God-Tree picture or refer to it as the Ten-Tails. Besides, the God Tree is its true form. The silhouette is merely its second, humanoid form.--RexGodwin (talk) 05:45, September 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * But, they're the same entity. It's just that the Jubi is better known, so I don't see why we'd tag out that image for another one. The article is, however, missing an image of its original form.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 06:55, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

But whats the policy on this? as far as what profile/infobox image to use? The Shinju form is the original form, but the Original Jūbi is the one seen the most, but is only been seen as a silhouette, and depending on who you ask theres 2-3 forms of the incomplete Jūbi we've seen in the manga in detail.. Im thinking maybe we can use 2 pictures; one depicting the true/original form as the Shinju, and then the other as the complete/original Jūbi form?--RexGodwin (talk) 14:14, September 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * The picture of the silhouette is the first image we saw of it, the most recognizable, and seriously, it's a damn tree.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:18, September 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * Just use tabs to display both the Ten Tails and the tree it existed from. --Speysider Talk Page 15:33, September 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * I see that opening all kinds of hell but i don't care at this moment. Tab it and see what happens next.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 15:55, September 13, 2013 (UTC)

And I mention again that "gedo mazo" "ten-tails" and "shinju" all are a single entity, so if we don't have a separate article for its tree form, so neither should we have for its weakened humanoid form--Elveonora (talk) 16:02, September 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * And we've been over that Elv. Again. And again. And again. The answer is still no. Like seriously.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:08, September 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * And it will be no forevermore, so I'd suggest not continually bring it up. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 20:59, September 13, 2013 (UTC)
 * Purposeful ignorance till the end I take it. It will eventually get merged anyway and deep down you know it, even without me pushing on you, be it 1000 years from now and regardless on you liking it or not, so why don't you just save yourselves the wrinkles and do so rather sooner than later?

"danger of testicular rupture imminent, seeking protective position for tactical and defensive purposes, cover found, commencing counterattack"--Elveonora (talk) 21:45, September 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * It won't. It never shall. Such is only a pipe dream that you possess. So, as has been told to you many times before. Drop it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 22:10, September 13, 2013 (UTC)


 * And I can't speak for Ten Tailed Fox, but your argument isn't even being considered unless you include the tailed beasts, at which point it would still wouldn't get far but it will at least raise an eyebrow as opposed to automatic no.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 00:24, September 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * Actually, I agree with you. The Tailed Beasts are all technically just living masses of the Jūbi's chakra. They're still "the same being", just made physical. So why should they get articles? Because there is a fundamental difference between them and their "parent". The Gedo Mazō is a big corpse which was noted to even have different chakra than the Jūbi. The Shinju literally is the Jūbi. It was a tree, got pissed off, changed its shape into the Jūbi. It had the same chakra, same mind, same everything. The Gedo Mazō was a big empty husk, which was mindless (was never shown acting independently of the summoner), and had a completely different chakra signature than that of the beast. Hence, they shall never be merged. Ever. Until you can justify not merging the tailed beasts with the Jūbi, then I'm also with Ultimate. I won't even hear it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 03:19, September 14, 2013 (UTC)

The point was to have him futilely try and explain why not, and THEN drop that bomb on him Ten Tailed Fox >_>. Kinda jumped to gun on the delivery.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 07:19, September 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'd prefer NOT to have that argument again, so I just explained why it'd be pointless to carry it on >_> I think we'd all prefer to not have to hear that tired argument again. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 07:57, September 14, 2013 (UTC)

And here is where you are wrong: Chakra alone doesn't make a living individual entity nor it turns someone into somebody else, they were given lives and forms. What you say is stupid from chakra perspective, spiritual perspective and even genetics. They aren't even the same in form, but even if they were, that wouldn't make them one either unless in your head identical twin siblings are 1 chick/guy.
 * Tailed Beasts and the Ten-Tails (or Shinju whatever)/"Demonic Statue" aren't the same being, they each have separate bodies, minds and souls of their own, the tailed beasts can exist independently, just like Kurama and Gyuuki are still there with the tree at the same time and by your logic, everyone in the alliance is now Naruto/Kurama/Minato since they have had their chakras.
 * Gedo Mazo isn't a corpse, never was. Corpses do not produce chakra, make noises and move and they usually do not need to be bind with chains shackles.
 * Chakra signature is moot and logical, most of its power was stripped away, of course it was different. Naruto and Sasuke's chakra signatures have changed as well as they "mature" so by your thoughts they must be different persons now.--Elveonora (talk) 11:07, September 14, 2013 (UTC)

Or even better, all human chakra originates from the tree's fruit eaten by a woman, so by your logic all human characters and Shinju should be merged into a single article, they do not differ from tailed beasts in individuality.--Elveonora (talk) 11:26, September 14, 2013 (UTC)


 * Dear lord, baby Jesus, the old and new gods and by the titans of Azeroth. I'm actually visibly shocked and impressed you pressed on with an argument. Well that made my morning, I'm off to do more important things. Cheers then.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:31, September 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * By Khadgar's Pipe, I shall do the same, because expecting cooperation from your party is too much. It's plain ignorance, to be expected from an Orc.--Elveonora (talk) 12:07, September 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Elve, it's not that they're considered separate. I said it before when I advocated that they remain separate: you have to understand that we need to have the best way to represent the information to readers. Consolidating the Gedo Mazo into the Ten-Tails/Shinju article would only serve to cause confusion so they're left separate. The Shinju wouldn't be a problem because it is all of one paragraph in an article. Also: Valar morghulis- I feel compelled to since everyone was saying fancy stuff.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 16:00, September 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, according to our two colleagues above, they are separate entities, which is false. They also say Gedo Mazo was a corpse, which is false, it wouldn't be a character if it were dead at all in fact.--Elveonora (talk) 16:20, September 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * EDIT: for the last time, Gedo Mazo was the Ten-Tails/Shinju. One doesn't get the beast/god/tree whatever by merging chakras of all 9 Tailed Beasts alone, the body (gedo mazo) is mandatory. The chakras only regenerate it. In body, mind and soul, this tree and all tailed beasts are each separate individuals, entities, characters, beings whatever terms aren't clear to ya @fox and @ultimate.

"Gedo Mazo" is no different than any other form/transformation of Jubi, we don't have a separate article for the Bulbasaur one neither the 1 eye, 1 mouth, 1 ear forms, it's no different--Elveonora (talk) 16:25, September 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Lawdy. Just let it alone. The info as it is now is not wrong, just represented in a preferred style. I could interject my own opinions on thism, but at the end of the day, none of that impacts either articles...--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 16:29, September 14, 2013 (UTC)

Well, that was amusing. But as has been said a billion times already, and, apparently, needs to be said a billion more, we're not merging them. Take your pick of Cerez's reasons or ours, I don't care, but we're not merging them, so let it alone. I can't believe you're still arguing this. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 17:28, September 14, 2013 (UTC)

Elve, clearly you're the only one who's making this case and clearly everyone decided not to merge the articles. That's it, no more need for discussion, it's done. Drop it. This entire discussion is pointless, fruitless and has nothing to do with the original topic whatsoever. --Mandon (talk) 19:48, September 14, 2013 (UTC)

Eye
In the current manga the Shinju's eye looks like the rinnegan without the tomoes? --Anamantiumninja (talk) 05:08, September 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's eye is the same as it always was, except it now has nine tomoe like it originally had.--Marc Zaddy (talk) 23:58, September 15, 2013 (UTC)
 * Think he means the mural recently shown this past chapter. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 00:01, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Could be an error though it's done on two murals. Or it could be alluding to something else. We can only wait to see how that unfolds.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 00:08, September 16, 2013 (UTC)

On pages 9 and 10 on chapter 646, there aren't any. --Anamantiumninja (talk) 00:14, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Might be because it's a mural from ancient times. Look at things like cave paintings, they aren't as accurate as todays paintinges, either. Seelentau 愛議 07:22, September 16, 2013 (UTC)

Section rewrite
I'm new here so hesitant to rewrite a section of this article, but this part definitely needs improvement because it doesn't seem to make any actual sense and looks like a word jumble in places ("an amount portion of the fruit"? "serves as a neutral"?). I'm not even completely sure what the editor (whoever edited that bit in) was even trying to say, but it's really baffling:

"After "evolving" back into the Shinju, it seems to have an instinct to take back chakra from every ninja, which probably serves as a neutral towards everyone or everything that comes to nothing while taking its own power back without sparing a single life due to the Princess having consumed an amount portion of fruit."

YamiNarutoRendan (talk) 17:57, October 25, 2013 (UTC)Yaminarutorendan

I would go right ahead and edit that, as long as you word it nicely and keep your grammar and spelling in check. However, I don't really have the authorization you want. Though I'm sure if the admins see this they will let you.--Marc Zaddy (talk) 23:13, October 25, 2013 (UTC)

Infobox beast image
I don't see a good reason why a photo of a silhouette should be used over an actual photo of the beast itself that actually shows what it looks like. I know some people are falling under the assumption that the last form we saw wasn't it's final beast form because it doesn't have all of Kurama and Gyuki's chakra, which doesn't honestly make any sense to me since it's the form shown right before it's final transformation, so logically that would be it's final beast form. Besides all that, the silhouette looks more like it's initial form than anything. Thoughts? --Mandon (talk) 20:03, October 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * The beast has many forms, and actually, in the mural shown in Madara's explanation of the origins of the Sage of the Six Paths, the beasts "complete" form, looks more like the form we first saw, than the one it was in before it became the tree. Furthermore, the image in the infobox doesn't seem to depict any form we've seen currently, if we got by physique, as that one looks more Kurama's physique. I guess what I'm getting at is, we truthfully don't know what the Shinju's original "beast form" looks like (though, going by the mural, the closest one, like I said, would be the first "form" we saw), so the shadow is a better depiction than nitpicking as to which form we use. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 03:59, October 27, 2013 (UTC)

are we sure
That the tree on the outside is really the Shinju? Yes, it's its form lookalike, but In my opinion, it's just a construct created using Wood Release. The Shinju itself was inside of Obito even after the creation of the plant (hence his jinchuuriki form) and still is even now that the tailed beasts have been separated (in form of gedo mazo likely) If the tree outside were the Shinju itself as is believed, then the alliance would have been sucking out the tailed beasts out of it, not from Obito, not to mention wouldn't it crumble or revert to previous forms without the chakras? And as such, I think it's the same case as Wood Release: Flowering Tree Obito using a Mokuton technique to channel the Shinju's powers through it. It's just a replica in short.--Elveonora (talk) 12:14, November 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sort of like how Gaara created a sand replica of the Shukaku? I can see that pretty easily, but we have no way of knowing for sure. As The Ultimate has so famously stated, "Chakra is screwy". Kishi could just as easily say the Shinju is inside of him and outside of him, and we'd be forced to accept it. So, while I absolutely agree with you, I think its best we just stick to what we know. The beasts were pulled out of him, but the Shinju was somehow on the outside. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:50, November 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, the same as the Shukaku replica, but okay. Thanks for noticing anyway--Elveonora (talk) 22:32, November 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hum...for a small revival of this discussion...we've had the Shinju's chakra/tailed beasts pulled off, we've had the Gedo Mazo ripped from Obito, we've had the it revived into it's Shinju form by Madara (in record time), we've had it re-sealed inside Madara...and the damn tree is still in the exact same place and shape it was when this mess started...even with the famous: "Chakra is screwy"...it's a damn stretch at best. Darksusanoo (talk) 11:06, February 13, 2014 (UTC)

Pretty much proves what I was saying, the "Shinju" outside is a replica created either through tailed beast skill or wood release. It's the same as Gaara "pulling out" Shukaku in Part I. without actually unsealing it from himself. He simply recreated it from sand--Elveonora (talk) 12:14, February 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except...wouldn't it have crumbled by now? The Shinju was disabled and extracted from Obito, Obito is with a foot and a half in the grave, and Madara is the new jinchuriki. Somewhat different from Gaara's case, since his replica dissolved after suffering a "Friendship Concussion" courtesy of Naruto. Darksusanoo (talk) 12:22, February 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Shukaku replica crumbled because Gaara regained consciousness, suppressing Shukaku's. There's no reason for the tree to crumble, it will wither eventually, worry not.--Elveonora (talk) 12:33, February 13, 2014 (UTC)


 * The tree on the outside is not the actual Ten-Tails. The actual Ten-Tails is inside whichever host has the Demonic Statue in it. It should already say in either this article or in the jinchuriki form article that the giant tree is an extension of the jinchuriki's body, not the actual legit Ten-Tails. It is essentially, the Tailed Beast Mode of the Ten-Tails' jinchurki tho.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 15:27, February 13, 2014 (UTC)

Sinju-Kaiju
The Sinju can be based ofn Dragon Balls Kaiju...Read the text...http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Kaiju YamatoTakeru (talk) 11:21, January 6, 2014 (UTC)

First Jinchuriki
We know the Sage was a jinchuriki. Obvious. But in this new chapter, it sounds as if both became jinchuriki. Without even going into the implications that could lead to, are we sure it even said "we both became the jinchuriki"?--TheUltimate3 (talk) 14:02, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 *  * this is more confusing* So far, Mangapanda and Mangastream said the same thing. ~IndxcvNovelist (talk 14:11, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

Sharingan
Kaguya has sharingan exactly like ten-tails eye. Both use infinite tsukuyomi. Conclusion: ten-tails has sharingan. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 07:44, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * It doesn't, I will take this to the chapter's talkpage--Elveonora (talk) 12:33, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * I brought up a similar point at Sharingan's talk page. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:45, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Number of Tomoe
As shown in chapter 670, the Ten-Tails originally had at least 10 tomoe (likely 12) in its eye, rather than nine as previously believed. Looking back, I don't think we've ever seen the fourth ring of its eye clearly before, excluding its current appearance and the mural in Madara's genjutsu, which only have 6 tomoe. Actually, when Obito manifested the Shinju outside of his body in 646, it seems to have had at least nine then as well, during Madara's explanation. Would anyone object to changing this in the article?--BeyondRed (talk) 01:40, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * It seems as if its eye socket is obscuring part of the eye. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 01:58, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * I've noticed the fourth ring with tomoe last chapter as well. I think we need a carefully worded sentence to say that its eye has been inconsistently portrayed. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:04, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah. We could do that. Or. We could just say its eye has "several" or "many" tomoe in a similar pattern to the Sharingan. Why is the number of tomoe so important? If the eye isn't open wide enough, obviously all of them are not going to be shown. If it really is bugging people that badly, make a Trivia note about the inconsistency, but as far as the actual description goes, it really couldn't matter less. Especially since these arguments seem to pop up every single time the eye is shown. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 04:55, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * If it were only a matter of the eye being open enough, I'd agree with you, but we've seen it open enough to see all four rings, and the third and fourth rings are indeed inconsistently portrayed, time with tomoe, time without tomoe. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:36, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

It isn't really all that inconsistent, if we ignore depictions of its eye on murals and such. It would appear the Ten-Tails has six tomoe in the three incomplete forms we saw it in during the war, but in its Shinju form and its "original" beast form (from chapter 570), it had twelve tomoe (if not more, since the fifth ring isn't visible). The only issue is that the "eye of the moon" we always see has only nine, but then it doesn't even have a fourth or fifth ring, so...--BeyondRed (talk) 16:06, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * I definitely remember 9 and 12 tomoe in flashbacks, 6 in pretty much all present appearances, and 9 every time we see the eye as part of the Eye of the Moon Plan. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:23, April 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * While the eye of the moon only shows 9 tomoe, isn't that because when the beast looks straight, you can only see 9 of them? Also, should we put in the trivia about how the Jubi might have more tomoe hidden by it's eye socket?--Deathmailrock (talk) 19:51, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Wood release (again)
So if we're all in agreement that its eye is the sharingan, can we finally agree that it also has wood release? There's no reason at this point not to. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 02:17, April 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * Major difference, the eye is consistent. The only time it has shown Wood Release was when Obito skewered the army with it.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 02:38, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

Trivia Note
I don't know where this should be placed, but, the rocks Hagoromo and his brother are standing upon while fighting the Shinju (in what appears to be the ocean, judging by the waves below them) are clearly a reference to the wedded rocks of Japanese legend (picture of them is in the article I linked). The rocks are connected to Izanami and Izanagi, which, as we all know are majorly symbolic as far as the Sage's lineage goes. Any thoughts on this? ~ Ten Tailed Fox 04:58, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Definitely trivia. This is the sort of info nugget I just love when I discover there is one. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:36, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Same here. I was researching that particular myth the other day and saw the picture in the infobox and it lit up like a lightbulb. Love making those connections in Kishi's story. I'll add the info to the Trivia. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 19:29, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

Shinju/Jūbi 2
So, the latest chapter confirmed that someone was to hasty to merge Juubi and Shinju into one article, as "incarnation" didn't mean the original Shinju transformed, but that separate entity was produced by it. Similar with Asura incarnations - Naruto is not Asura, even if he inherited his powers and features. Shinju has its own consciousness. Also, it was clear when after producing the Holy Tree Obito still had all the bijuus inside himself.Faust-RSI (talk) 07:49, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * I was going to make this argument before, but it seemed like a lot of effort. I think we should probably unmerge the two, just like we have the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path unmerged. Skarrj (talk) 07:51, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * I forgot to mention another argument - the similar case is also Zetsu: he is a clone of the First, yet he is a being of his own with his own unique appearance (even with variations for different clones).Faust-RSI (talk) 07:55, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

But we literary saw the Shinju transform into the Jubi, so what's up with that?--Elveonora (talk) 13:52, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * We did it WHEN, exactly? Except of symbolic Madara's tale, of course.Can't remember.Faust-RSI (talk) 14:03, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

Well, according to this at least http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarnation The Shinju is also the Ten-Tails, but the Ten-Tails isn't the Shinju. Kinda like Christians believe that Jesus was their God in flesh, yet he wasn't at the same time, which doesn't make any sense to me but okay.... how can one be and not be someone at the same time? 0_o--Elveonora (talk) 13:56, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know where you got all that from, but I'd caution against hurling accusations or making decisions based off a vice saying 1 sentence…--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:02, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

We saw Obito produce the Ten-Tails that was sealed into him, and that turned into the tree. They're the same. If anything, one is the other shapeshifted, minus the whole dividing of chakra that turned the Ten-Tails into other beings. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 05:24, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then there are 2 Juubis, as we clearly saw the bijuus were still inside Obito, Naruto and Co removed them, then Madara removed Gedo Mazo, resealed Bijuus into it, then we clearly saw how he absorbed perfectly "normal" Juubi and became his Jin. All this while the Tree remained.Faust-RSI (talk) 05:52, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

shinju's eye
I know there has been a long discussion about this but after thinking it through...I wanted to say that would it be better to remove the sharingan KG from its classifications until we have solid evidence...cuz from what I remember it was put after we heard from hagoromo that kaguya had sharingan...and due to it bearing similarity to the shinju's eye it was thus named sharingan too...but now we have sasuke's rinnegan which is also identical to it...now I'm not saying to chang it's name to rinnegan or anything...just simply suggeting to remove it until further info is released about shinju's eye...--DARK ZER06 (talk) 09:13, April 17, 2014 (UTC) --DARK ZER06 (talk) 09:14, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * This, we either say it's both the Sharingan and Rinnegan or neither--Elveonora (talk) 10:19, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya, the Shinju/Ten-Tails and Sasuke all have eyes that look alike. Kaguya was said to have the powers of the Sharingan and Byakugan. Sasuke's new eye is classified as the Rinnegan. Nowhere in the manga was it said that the Shinju has the Sharingan (or any dojutsu for that matter). I know I've said on another talk page that both Kaguya and the Shinju were Sharingan users, but Sasuke's new eye has made things extremely confusing, so the Sharingan Kekkei Genkai section must be removed. Having that section there would be assuming things, and I know that's against how things work here. WindStar7125 (talk) 20:48, April 17, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125

I think we should just add both. Its the easiest thing to do. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 20:54, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd rather go back to saying nothing. Before Sasuke, the eye was called Sharingan. Now, we have two conflicting statements. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:20, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except they are hardly conflicting. We were told that Kaguya had the power of Sharingan, not that her third eye was called Sharingan, I believe?--Elveonora (talk) 20:25, April 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wrong. The term used to describe her eyes was doryuko, the same one we've seen being used all the way back when Danzo was first shown using Sharingan. It is a synonym to doujutsu. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:38, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

Beast Form picture
In the past I argued that the current image of the Ten-Tails was how it looked like when it was whole and fought Hargoromo and his brother but that isn't how it looked after we saw a glimpse of it. I think it needs to be reverted back to a previous image or better one. It is wrong to depict the first stage of the Ten-Tails maturing and have it as the main image of it's Beast Form. If anything I would like to see the silhouette of what we saw when Kurama was describing the Ten-Tails to Naruto back before we saw it's first stage.--Narutofox94 (talk) 19:48, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Gender clarification ...
Regardless of whether or not the Japanese raw scans use gender pronouns, isn't about time we just call the Shinju a male? It was a god-tree. Gods are males and goddesses are female. Why are there people that still call the Juubi an "it"?

Further evidence/proof: At the 18:00+ mark in episode (using Crunchyroll's subs) 341, Kurama is referring to the Juubi as a "he". Mike 23:33, May 6, 2014 (UTC)(talk)
 * No. Not necessarily. Just because the word "god" is a male pronoun, it doesn't mean that the Shinju as a deity is male. Subs have always used gendered pronouns for entities that have no confirmed gender for a long while now if I'm not mistaken. I've lost count of how many times people have wanted to change Kurama's gender to male based on voice and scanlations calling Kurama a he. And to get technical, as a flowering tree, it probably has a gender, but it could be female, or even a hermaphrodite. Katsuyu has a female voice, but as a slug, it's technically a hermaphrodite. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:35, May 6, 2014 (UTC)

However, Omnibender, even if it a flowering plant, it might not be a hermaphrodite in the NV. Also, I think that technically it should be considered a male because in that episode I mentioned, Kurama mentioned it with the word "kami". A kami is a god. --Mike 01:09, May 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Kami can be, and is used to refer to both male and female gods. For example, Amaterasu, the sun goddess is referred to as a Kami. It's far less speculatory to refer to the Shinju/Juubi as an it.--Soul reaper (talk) 02:22, May 7, 2014 (UTC)

Also social/psychological gender =/= biological gender/sex. Black Zetsu obviously has no penis/testicles or anything and is a male. So if the Shinju is male, female or hermaphrodite plant is completely irrelevant, because it may have no personal gender identity at all.--Elveonora (talk) 13:40, May 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except the "gender" we display in infoboxes is and has always been biological gender, so whatever non-biological aspect of the word, as far as infobox-listing purposes go, isn't the point. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:22, May 7, 2014 (UTC)