Talk:Nagato

Why
Do we have this page if we have no info on him?Random123 02:23, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Because now we do! ;) --Radaghast 15:13, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Akatsuki Leader
Isn't Tobi/Obito the leader?
 * No. Pein is the leader, and Tobi/Madara is sometimes called by fans "a true leader" because he orders Pein around. Obito is dead. --Radaghast 15:13, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Speaking of which, should ths image be added to Madara/Tobi's page? 24.24.90.148 01:28, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Spelling
For consistency's sake, if we use "Guy" and "Jugo", instead of "Gai" and "Juugo", then Pein should be referred to as the more proper "Pain."


 * However, this site uses Wikipedia as a main base (If I'm correct, another website is doing info on Anime based off there own stuff) and Wikipedia use Pein. Also apparently if you where to spell it in Japan, you would still get Pein as "ei" makes the "ay" sound in English.--TheUltimate3 11:07, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I dont know what people are smokin but Gai is still Gai...romanized or not. (because Guy and Gai are different)--Chipmonk3288


 * Gai is the romanized name, Guy is the official English name. Yes, Gai is Gai, as that is the romanization. But Guy is used because that's the English name that was given to him. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Jan 3, 2008 @ 07:30 (UTC)

Wikipedia also uses Pain now. There's no reason to use Pein here. Good sense indicates that Pain's name is simply "pain" spelled in Katakana and should be used in absence of an official romanization. "Pain" is what ペイン is typically used for. Bvdan 03:20, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia uses "Pain" as the English translation because they gave into the large number of people tweaking the article and speculating that the name was Pain. As you can see on the Wikipedia article they even accept "Pein" as the romanization. The Narutopedia however does not follow the same type of policies as Wikipedia. When it comes to names we use the romanization "In this case Pein" up until the English series gets an official equivilant. Which is why we have been, and still will be using the romanization Pein, until he shows up with a name in the English series. Of course, if "Pain" is the literal meaning of "Pein" than as I've noted before, it's perfectly fine to add that in a  parameter. But here, we don't use good sense or speculation. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion  May 25, 2008 @ 16:22 (UTC)
 * We also use italics to indicate when a name is not-English. Right now we're just barely trying to get at least the primary use of names (Inside the translation templates at the start of the article) italicized. But if you're up to it and want to push for it, we could try italicizing all use of Japanese names. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion May 25, 2008 @ 16:28 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia came to use Pain through a long discussion page. Good sense absolutely needs to be used in any wiki project and is used extensively in this one.  It seems fairly brazen for you to claim it's not used, and worse yet, that it shouldn't.  As it stands, ペイン is typically translated as "Pain". There's really little basis for keeping "Pein" for ペイン, except for adherence to an overall rule.  And really, that's not a benefit at all. Another example would be "kopii ninja Kakashi".  We've never received an offical romanization of "kopii" here, but good sense indicates how we should convert it.   Bvdan 16:53, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

The spelling is officially "Pain" as it turns out from the latest databook. Bvdan 22:59, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Which is moot until a scan can be provided.--TheUltimate3 23:02, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * How would it be "moot"? Anyhow, the link is down, but "Pain (by the way, in romaji it's clearly written PAIN, not "Pein" :p): 176.5cm x 57.2kg (age and bday unknown)" per a person who provided extensive pictures and information from the new databook: http://nayama.livejournal.com/36017.html#cutid1 Bvdan 23:08, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * It is moot. Because the image is down. At this point, its the word of a blog which is not a credible source. So as per normacy, image of the actual databook (not what was written on a blog) or wait for scans.--TheUltimate3 23:10, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * What is the standard for credible source here? I'd think having extensive pictures of the databook is credible enough, especially for moving something which by all means should have been moved a while ago. Bvdan 23:12, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Doesn't matter how extensive the pictures are when the only valid image isn't available. The author could have just added that to convince a false point, but for all it matters the author could be right or wrong, it doesn't change anything unless there is a citation. And only an actual image from the databook is a good citation.
 * We're trying to step up our standards. We had a whole big issue with mistranslating Kira Hachi, Pein has been accepted as a valid romanization for awhile now, Wikipedia switched to Pain cause they thought it better to go along with the assumptions. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Sep 4, 2008 @ 23:17 (UTC)


 * Are we honestly worried about such a conspiracy against "Pein"? There is a citation.  Do you honestly expect there is a noteworthy chance that the source is in error?  Really, I wonder what would happen to this wiki if you tried to apply this standard uniformly to it.  Bvdan 23:30, 4 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Cool down a bit about it... Rome wasn't built in a day, neither is a good source of information. Holding some information back until it can be verified isn't going to hurt anything. The databook just came out, it's not going to be to long till someone scans it or one of our editors gets a hold of a copy and can scan pages in for us. And Pein vs. Pain has been a fairly heated topic in the past on the internet, there's plenty of room for someone to make a false claim in a blog they own and have absolute control over. It's not forever, just for now. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Sep 4, 2008 @ 23:42 (UTC)

Bodys/Apperance
Firstly it says he has six bodies in total but it seems to me six pods, plus the body he's already in makes seven, secondly apparence may need to be tweaked because his apperance may change, secondly is there any proof that the body he's first seen in is his original in flash back he has black hair. Please make corrections thanks.
 * However, he is shown entering one of the six pods in his "spiky-haired" body, and then later shown in his body with more extensive piercings, and seeing as how it is unknown who are in the other pods, it is still possible that his original body is in one of them. For the time being, it would seem the most accurate to say that he has at least six bodies, and make changes as information comes to light. Personally, I would be inclined to believe that he has six bodies overall, seeing that the Rin'negan was supposedly developed by the Sage of Six Paths, and that each of Pein's bodies corresponds to one of the paths (Hell, Hunger, Animality, Anger, Humanity, and Heaven), although this may be a bit too speculative. 24.24.90.148 01:28, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Added info about the Pain that had his eyes closed being due to Jiraiya's justu. Odd that no one caught that mistake..it was clearly in the chapter. He did it when he simulatiously prevented the other guy to absorb, he did it to fight the summoning Pein one on one, and is largely how he (Temporarily) beat him---Chipmonk3288

A few inserts from a Wikipedia talkpage
I took a look over Talk:Akatsuki (Naruto)/Archive 13. It still looks like using the Japanese romanization for his name until a official English name is given is a good idea. Just as we never wrote in the Fourth Hokage being Naruto's father until the manga finally stated that. (Also, a lot of the discussion there that lead to decision uses Wikipedia policies which they go by, which aren't aimed to our goals which differ from having a different scope and direction)

But it looks like were missing some useful stuff:
 * If Pain is a real literal translation we should note it as that using "|lit meaning=" in the translation template. If it's not a real literal translation, we should note it as a common translation there. Either using the extra, or I could create a "|common meaning="/"|com meaning=" and/or "|common translation="/"|com translation=" parameter for the translation template. Or note it's similar pronunciation to the English word.
 * It looks like there is some stuff about references to Pain which Pein makes noted on the talkpage which we are missing. We should probably note them a bit more in the article and let the reader make the assumption that Pein is likely to be changed into Pain in the English release.
 * As Pein is Japanese, it would probably be a good idea to italicize our use of the name Pein to avoid confusing the readers making them think it's being used as English.
 * The common translation of Pein as Pain, or it's similar pronunciation to the English word "Pain" would probably fit nicely as a trivia item. So we should probably note it in that section to.
 * ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Jan 3, 2008 @ 07:30 (UTC)


 * I'll add it as a trivia note now.--TheUltimate3 12:45, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

missing-nin?
How is he a missing-nin if he's the leader of the country he's supposedly a mssing-nin from?02:00, 20 February 2008 (UTC)~

Cleanup

 * Grammar fix for this edit. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Feb 20, 2008 @ 06:04 (UTC)

Sage of the Six Paths is only the ancestor of Pein, not a reletive. We don't even have proof that he is related to him somehow.

Sage of the Six Paths is not proofed to be related to Pein. --Kakashi Namikaze 23:26, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I'd say that the fact that they share the same Bloodline Limit is somewhat indicative that they are related. Since I doubt Pein is a clone or had the Rinnegan transplanted a la Kakashi.

P.S. an ancestor is a relative.


 * Yes, but we don't list ancestors. If we did Madara Uchiha would be spammed up with the dozens of Uchiha clan members, and all the Uchiha's would have him listed. This is all quite useless because we already tag people as members of clans, and the ancestor is always the founder of that clan. So there isn't reason to list ancestors anywhere. Also... :/ the new infobox is NOT going to support ancestor relations, so don't bother. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion May 9, 2008 @ 05:11 (UTC)

Identity
Jiraiya thinks its NAgato but he questiosn it alter and writes the identity on the frog should we add that his identity as nagato is in question or leaveit blank till further info 72.208.52.165 00:06, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

This article has way too many images. ~Kakashi Namikaze (talk) 16:37, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think so, there are articles in worse state. It's not about how many images there are on the page, it's about how effectively used they are. This page has an infobox image, the background has an image of who he looked like long in the past, we've got an image on his Kekkei Genkai and the unique thing about himself that it causes (the multiple bodies), and then we have an image for each of the bodies he has to help identify them. I don't see any unnecessary duplication here, unlike in some other articles. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Jul 6, 2008 @ 18:13 (UTC)
 * Pein has a total of eight different bodies and counting, of course there's going to be a shitload of images. 70.138.167.143 05:13, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Pictures of bodies
when possible, should the pictures of his second and fourth body, be replaced with something better.

It depends, mostly its ok if you follow these guidelines:
 * Never replace a image not tagged for deletion with one that is or will be... In other words, if an image has a fair use tag and a fair use rationale, don't replace it with a image that doesn't have the rationale.
 * Never use an edited image. Be it coloring, or clipping multiple images together.
 * ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Jul 7, 2008 @ 05:31 (UTC)

New Body
You do know this means that Pein's gender is kinda, mixed now. I think (because it looks like the new body is indeed a woman) that references to Pein are more correct now as "it" rather than he. Besides, a single will spread across many bodies sorta loses an idea of a gender.Solox 17:13, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You do have a point, but I think that Pein will continue to be mentioned as a "he" because the main body is male, not to mention that the original body, the one in which the Rin'negan appeared first was male. Omnibender 18:22, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * He was born a dude. He didn't go through any sort of sex transplant or anything. Just think of his extra bodies as puppets, like Kankuro's, only applied to humans. 70.138.167.143 05:11, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Third databook
Finally the discussion about Pain's name is over. Here is a scan of his article in the third databook (thanks to whoever uploaded it). As you can see, his name is written as Pain. --ShounenSuki 08:14, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Sweet, databook pictures. Can't see anything written in English, though. Scan it again, and make it clearer, so we can be sure. Interesting how they show his deceased body instead of its replacement, though. 70.138.167.143 23:46, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The databook doesn't cover the latest chapters. I believe it covers up until after Madara's Konoha history lesson.
 * Any way, you can see "Pain" written in the background near the underside of the title bar. The P is partly obscured by text and the I and N are partly obscured by the title bar, but it's clearly readable. --ShounenSuki 23:52, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Ah, I can see it now. I had seen that little blip before, but wrote it off as some sort of fancy ass kana or somethin'. Looks good to me, but we're supposed to hold off on shit from the third databook, yeah? Namikaze Suigetsu 00:25, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Hold of on information without a scan was the idea. Basically we just don't want to add information people got from random forums and blogs who say they got information from the databook but can't be verified. Adding things when a scan with the information is put on the talkpage is good. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Sep 6, 2008 @ 11:56 (UTC)
 * Oh, in that case, does anyone have a scan of Hidan's page and/or the page where it explains what Yugakure is? Namikaze Suigetsu 14:31, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Third databook & jutsu
Has the third databook confirmed that he uses a jutsu called "Strange Arm Flaming Arrow" or is it a guess?Jacce 10:30, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Pein?
Is there any citation for the use of "Pein". The third databook lists his name as Pain. The Databook is Japanese and doesn't list English. So that's the romanization of his name, not the English name. So Pein would be an incorrect romanization. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Sep 9, 2008 @ 14:03 (UTC)


 * I'll take the case! Anywho, if memory serves me correctly while the Romanization of ペイン is now offically Pain, the combined letters "ai" doesn't actually exist in Japan. That is why for the longest we used "Pein" instead of "Pain" because the "ei" does however exist in Japan. Therefore the romanji (not the romanization) of ペイン is indeed Pein. I remember this from a rather lengthy discussion back on Wikipedia. It'll take time to find and I got class in a few so yeah. Just bare with me until Suki shows up.--TheUltimate3 14:30, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * So why does "ai" mean love? Answer: You're so full of shit it's not funny. 207.80.142.5 18:47, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I'll explain it a little bit better. I'm not sure if you have much Japanese knowledge, so I'll go into detail just in case (forgive me if you do know Japanese and this comes across as patronizing, I'm simply trying to explain as best as possible). In Japanese, foreign words (such as Pain) are spelled phonetically in katakana. The English word "Pain" is rendered in katakana as, the individual characters being , , and . This is pronounced identically to the English word "Pain" (also Pane, Paine, etc.).
 * "Pain" should not be mistaken for a romanization of his Japanese name; it's a transliteration of ペイン into the English word "Pain", the same way that the names of Might Guy and Rock Lee are transliterations of and  into English (and Chinese in the case of Lee) words.
 * Unfortunately, and I would guess this to be the problem, "Pain" looks like a romanization of katakana. However, this is just a coincidence; if this were the case, his name would be rendered as, using the katakana instead of , and his name would be pronounced like the English word "Pine".
 * I hope that I explained it clearly. I can certainly see how it would be confusing for people. FF-Suzaku 20:11, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Unfortunately there is a discrepancy in that rationale. Might Guy and Rock Lee are English translations, however Pain is not. The Japanese databooks lists Might Guy with the romanji Gai, not Guy. The third databook lists "Pain" not "Pein". So there is no source to backup the romanization "Pein". Pain is not English, it's the official romanization for Pain. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Oct 3, 2008 @ 20:28 (UTC)


 * Be that as it may, I can assure you that ペイン is "pein". Any Japanese to English dictionary will tell you that ペ is "pe". This is true in all styles of romanization (Hepburn, Nihon-shiki, JSL, etc.). Even if Pain isn't supposed to be the English word "Pain", it's still pronounced like it, and katakana is phonetic. The Japanese characters used in his name are pe, i, and n, not pa, i, and n. His name is explcitly spelled "ペイン", and anyone who understands Japanese katakana would pronounce it the same way as the English word "Pain". If the romanization was "pain" (indicating the katakana パイン), his name would be pronounced like the English word "pine".
 * "Pain" is the official English name, but whether or not it's the English word, or was just selected for the way it looks, or some other odd reason, is irrelevant. The romanization of the katakana used IS "pein". That's straight up fact, unless Naruto has it's own romanization rules that are completely different from the Japanese to English romanization rules that have been established since 1937. The only other feasible possibility is that either "Pain" or ペイン are typos, one or the other. FF-Suzaku 21:07, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * No Pain is not the official English word. The databook does not give official English, it gives official romanizations. Viz gives out official English translations. However the way you are speaking of pe and pa, sounds a lot like Japanese's ambiguity over r an l. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Oct 3, 2008 @ 21:19 (UTC)

Nagato needs a separate page
Since we still don't really know if Pein is Nagato, shouldn't he have his own page? The databook has a birthdate for Nagato as September 19th, but for Pein there is no birthdate. This could be because they are the same person and Kishimoto doesn't want us to figure it out by their birthdates matching... we still dont know, though. Kangarugh22 15:11, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Any basis for saying we can't say he's Nagato? So far, everything points towards "he is nagato." Suigetsu Namikaze ( T | C ) 03:26, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

8th body?
in chapter 379, on the lower left panel of page 12, one of pain's bodies says "it's time" this bodies facial features, at least whats shown, dont match the one's of any of the other seven bodies. this seems to indicate an eighth body, possibly the real one. is this a possibility? ShadowRyanTX 21:57, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * To me it looks like the fourth body, although the two percings in his chin is missing, maybe because they are coverd by his cloak or was just missed by drawer. Jacce 07:59, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

but shouldn't the bottom of the nose stud also be visible if it is the fourth body? ShadowRyanTX 17:54, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
 * You are probably right, so I made another check. It could be the sixth body. And besides, why would Pain sent a body away when Jiraiya manage to defeat three of them? Jacce 18:42, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

this body has hair down to the chin, unlike the sixth. and pain didnt use the seventh body either. maybe it was only there to revive the other bodies, then left again. ShadowRyanTX 01:11, 23 September 2008 (UTC)
 * If you look at page 14-15, you see that sixth has hair on the back of its head, which could be taken for long hair.Jacce 04:37, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

About Bodies
1) it is stated in the article that, Yahiko-body used the body replacement, while in reality it was Fuuma-body.

2)could it be that, Pein's mutant-body is the reference to "Te Man Who Laughs"?Paths 12:54, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

About the names of the bodies
In Naruto chapter 419, the six bodies Pain uses have received specific designations, unsurprisingly, derived from Buddhism. The names are as follows:



Note: Animal Path refers both to the original body and its replacement.

Some of these paths may be translated in other (less accurate) ways, however these are the most apt, and follow the preferred naming as per the Wikipedia articles on Buddhism. For example, though may be translated as "god", "angel", or "heaven", in this case, it specifically refers to the Devas of Buddhist cosmology, and the Deva Path of the Samsara, and should be distinguished from "heaven", because it's not really the same concept. Likewise, may be translated as "demon", or "warring demon", but specifically refers to the Asura, and, which can be translated as "hell", specifically refers to the Naraka. , sometimes translated literally as "hungry ghost", are more properly known as Preta.

There are also deeper meanings here, which relate to their abilities. Animal Path summons creatures (animals, obviously), while Preta Path is able to devour attacks (Preta constantly hunger), Naraka Path can presumably resurrect the dead (Naraka revive the dead to continue their suffering), and so on.

literally means path, not "realm", and though the Six Paths of Suffering are sometimes referred to as "realms", the term used in the "Six Paths of Pain" and the individual bodies literally means "path", as in a "path of rebirth".

Feel free to read the wikipedia articles on each subject, and if you have any further questions or concerns regarding the translations, post here and I'll try my best to clarify or explain what each represents, and why these are the most accurate translations. FF-Suzaku 18:31, 3 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Ugh, not you again. For the sake of brevity, I'm only going to respond to your bullshit on the Wikipedia talk page, but I'm changing your translations to the literal ones since they all use Kanji that have literal meanings in addition to the Buddhist words. All you've said to prove the contrary is that "it's not really the same concept," an "argument" which holds absolutely no weight here or anywhere. You can link stupid Wikipedia pages all you want if you think it proves your point, but it doesn't, and choosing one radically different translation because it's how you think it should be is simple bullshit, straight and simple. "Deva" -> "Heaven," "As(h?)ura"-> Demon, etc. 207.80.142.5 18:45, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, try to remember this fact "We are not a sub-project of Wikipedia, just because they have some policies doesn't mean that they apply here. We merely look the reasoning behind relevant policies on Wikipedia and use them as a guide in determining our own." We have had plenty of differences with Wikipedia until canon sources gave actual facts. For example, we used the accepted romaji "Pein" up until the third databook came out and gave the official romaji "Pain".

Now, breaking this down, here are the actual facts we have:
 * 5 of Pain's bodies are referred to with the kanji 天道 which has the romaji Tendō, 修羅道 which has the romaji Shuradō, 人間道 which has the romaji Ningendō, 餓鬼道 which has the romaji Gakidō and 地獄道 which has the romaji Jigokudō.
 * These names happen to match some of Buddhism's paths of reincarnation.

Now that's where the facts end... "Kishimoto derived these from Buddhism" is an assumption, we have no official source confirming this, "Kishimoto intended the 6 paths to be directly related to the Buddhism paths of reincarnation" is another assumption. The second body having the kanji that matches the Animal path is another assumption because as I recall he was not shown on that panel because he is dead.

There are no sources to confirm or deny these assumptions, and there has been no apparent extensive discussion on the subject done by anyone other than the two of you. So till we get some confirmation from an official source, we should only be listing the known facts. One of the old polices has been to "Go with the facts we have, give them to the reader, and let the reader make the assumptions instead of making them ourself". Which is why we have the Tobi and Madara articles as one (he said that he was Madara), but give the reader the speculation section to determine their own viewpoint. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Oct 3, 2008 @ 20:14 (UTC)


 * The six bodies are each given those names, on the front page of chapter 419. He specifically calls the new, feminine body (replacing the one Jiraiya killed) "Chikushōdō", when issuing the orders, so all six of his present bodies have been given names, or at least designations/code names/aliases, which do share names with all of the Six Paths of Buddhist Reincarnation (whether intentional or not). Deva Path, Asura Path, etc., are simply translations of the Japanese/Chinese words (Japanese and Chinese Buddhist terminology use the same kanji characters but differ in pronunciation) into proper English. I used the accepted English terms (Deva, Asura, Naraka, etc.), as some other possible translations (Heaven, Demon, Hell) are a bit misleading, being more evocative of traditional western concepts, rather than the Buddhist principals of reincarnation which the words represent.


 * That said, I understand where you are coming from, and totally support leaving the terms romanized and untranslated (was going to suggest it, in fact), until some sort of official English romanization is available, especially if it means misleading/erroneous translations like "Hell Realm" are also removed from the equation. However, one note: If you leave these names untranslated, then you should also leave Rikudō untranslated for the same exact same reason. Honestly, any technique/location names that haven't gotten official translations should also probably be left untranslated, following that same policy, but I'll leave that up to your discretion. FF-Suzaku 21:01, 3 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, if he referred to the dead character then you can put the untranslated name in. As for Rikudō, normally I just step in when users disagree on something. I'll leave that up to discussion. But as for techniques, those follow completely different naming rules. We decided to handle Jutsu names separately a long time ago. For those we always use the literal translation of the name (though how to handle Chidori or Rasengan, and whether to use Jutsu or Technique is still undecided officially, that discussion needs to be brought back up). ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Oct 3, 2008 @ 21:27 (UTC)