Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-34277398-20180509212801/@comment-33959444-20180515021648

Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam wrote: It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: Itachi has never been shown mind controlling anybody except for some girl who wasn't even a ninja. Obito, meanwhile, controlled a Perfect Jinchuriki. Obito is nothing more than a nuisance portrayal wise? I'm starting to doubt you watched the series. I wonder if that's why Itachi called him his teacher and stated he needed the EMS to surpass him. Obito reacted to the Fourth Raikage, Hebi and MS Sasuke, KCM Naruto, and BM Naruto. He showed better speed feats than Itachi. So Itachi can dodge Kamui, despite it being fast enough to let Obito escape from KCM Naruto? I laughed once you said that Obito couldn't dodge Itachi, considering he can literally pass through all attacks. Please try to keep bias out of these debates... Whether it hasnt happened in canon or not doesnt matter. Itachi's Susanoo Sword has been stated to cut anything does that mean because it hasnt cut Perfect Susanoo it cant cut it? No. Lets not go there. Lets take statements and feats with equal respect. We're comparing someone who barely got screentime with someone who got the War arc including a skirmish with Kaguya to show off his abilities. Plus most of his opponents have claimed he wasnt going all out in nearly all thier fights.

What you said doesnt make sense. Obito said he waited so long for itachi to die to carry out his plans [] yet Itachi needs the EMS to surpass Obito? Cant you see the fact itachi is blatantly lying? We are aware of the fact Kabuto has stated itachi is a liar and a genius of lying at that. Just like he said Tsukuyomi can be broken by blood uchiha when that makes zero shred of sense. How do you break something by being connected by blood? Kakashi debunked his lie when he claimed Itachi's mangekyou sharingan cannot be dispelled[] let alone tsukuyomi. Dont say he was talking about non uchiha when we have the fact he wouldve mentioned uchiha can break it otherwise. This coming from a man who experienced Tsukiyomi firsthand. Obito isnt breaking MS illusion.

Edo tensei revives people weaker than when they died. That proves edo itachi was weaker than sick itachi. Though he had the benefit of great stamina and chakra reserves. Stamina and chakra doesnt equate to itachi being at full power so we can forget arguing on that. Yet KCM was outsped by itachi before he could even react or reflex or even move a limb before itachi blitzed out.[] No exclamation mark to prove he reacted. Dont bring the excuse Naruto wasnt serious when no one in war arc fights non serious. If anything it was itachi who was holding back as he broke edo tensei on his own and lied to the duo that he needed Kotoamatsukami. [] Dont bring the excuse Kabuto referred koto when he wouldve praised Shisui otherwise. No one gets praise for using another's powers. Even madara using mokuton praise was given to Hashirama. We know the fact that kabuto knew about Koto by his words in the preceding panel. He praised itachi yet again.[] Then there's the fact hebi sasuke got smacked effortlessly in a illusion and thats a feat as kishimoto doesnt draw panels showing someone's speed just for us to conclude its in a genjutsu so its automatically invalid. Pain and Databook states Hebi Sasuke takes the breath away of Akatsuki members and he has admitted Taka is a threat to him respectively. Dont say Itachi is a Akatsuki member when he in fact is a double agent loyal to leaf. Unless someone can prove Obito is faster than kcm reaction or reflex speed we dont have a point.

Obito keeping up with BM doesnt mean he is faster than kcm reaction speed or reflex so dont argue that. Base obito claimed hebi sasuke's shunshin was too fast and he has reacted to Raikage blitz. Same Sasuke was took on by a blind itachi with no fighting intent as most of that fight was a genjutsu.

Shikaku wasnt wrong as he's talking out of experience and the running theme in this Manga is Nara clan members are the most intelligent and knowledgeable so Zetsu being the culprit doesnt change the fact Shikaku trusted itachi's genjutsu powers too be that potent and undetectable. Obito wont/cannot break it as far as canon goes. I see your point here, but there's a boundary when it comes to statements. You have to take into consideration statements that can be trusted and can't be trusted. For example, Madara claimed the blade of his PS could cut through all things in the universe. Does that seem logical? Not at all. I'm not saying all statements are false or non-credible. I'm just saying that it's important to use one's own judgement to decide whether if it seems credible or not.

Again, Obito not attacking the Leaf doesn't mean Itachi was stronger than him or in control. It could just be because Obito was being smart. Why would he engage in a fight against somebody which could potentially cause harm to him when he could wait it out, knowing that this person is gradually weakening and dying, and accomplish his goals without any problem? Obviously he'd go with the latter. Him not attacking the Leaf doesn't necessarily mean Itachi is stronger. It could just mean Obito is respecting the fact Itachi is strong. Obito had the entire Akatsuki and 7 Bijuu under his command. Why would he be scared of some Itachi who's suffering from illness and going blind? It doesn't make any sense. As for Tsukuyomi, context is important. At that moment, a four-man squad of Sakura, Kakashi, Naruto, and Chiyo were facing Itachi. It wasn't worth mentioning that an Uchiha could break out of Tsukuyomi. Also, Kakashi's statement is not 100% fact. (And remember that Obito's Genjutsu is also compared to Kotoamatsukami, so if you use this statement, I can use the statement of Kotoamatsukami) Is he related to Itachi's bloodline? No. He's experienced the effects of Tsukuyomi? True. He's not in Itachi's bloodline though. Itachi's statement had to do with bloodline. I'm only trying to think logically with Itachi's Tsukuyomi. If it really was unbreakable, are you seriously going to go ahead and tell me that it will work on Gods such as Hagoromo and Kaguya? There's no way. There MUST be a limit to it or some kind of counter. One philosophy that stands in Naruto is that all Jutsu have weaknesses. This quote, from what we've seen, stands. Kamui was stated to have no counters. Later, we find out it can be countered. Preta Path stated to be able to absorb Ninjutsu. Counter is Senjutsu. Chibaku Tensei Orb pulls things towards it. Counter is to attack the orb and not worry about aiming because the orb will pull the attack towards it. Even the most Godly form of attack in the Narutoverse (Six Paths) has a counter, which is Senjutsu. Considering all of this AND the fact that the person who said all Jutsu have weaknesses is Itachi (who is the one who has Tsukuyomi and uses it), I'm pretty sure it has a weakness. And even IF Obito can't break out of it, what if Obito just doesn't get caught? Remember that KCM Naruto fought against Itachi and never got caught in Tsukuyomi. Obito is also a sensory type, so the chances of him fighting by sensing aren't too low. He's really good at sensory considering he found Team Taka without knowing their location pretty easily.

In Shippuden, Edo Tensei is nearly perfected. By Tobirama's words, Edo Tensei was improved so much that the Hokage were revived in states near to their primes. Now add in immortality, infinite Chakra, infinite stamina, and a regeneration factor. Now ALSO add in the fact that Itachi no longer has terminal illness and isn't going blind from the MS anymore (thanks to regeneration and infinite Chakra), and he's far stronger than sick Itachi.

Your next paragraph is a GIGANTIC REACH when it comes to speed and Edo Tensei, and all it proves to me is that you are indeed biased, ESPECIALLY looking at what you said about Itachi breaking out of Edo Tensei lol. First let me start at speed. I've seen this argument before from somebody, but it is invalid. First of all, because you are reaching so much with this argument, I could literally do the exact same thing and claim that KCM Naruto had just dished out thousands of Shadow Clones to other battlefields, each with their own KCMs, so Naruto was far weaker here than he would be. If you're reaching, I can do the same. An actual argument I could make is this: The part about gravity and Bee's scarf isn't worth mentioning because these characters are fighting faster than lightning which is faster than how fast things are pulled to Earth by gravity. Therefore, I could answer the rest by saying that Naruto and Bee didn't react solely because they didn't have a need to. It's a typical thing in movies and comics that sometimes, a character attempts to blitz another character. Then, the character moves out the way, and the character that attempted to blitz just stays in the same position until the character who dodged reached where they wanted to, and then starts the dialogue. It's exactly what happened here, although I can't think of any examples. Anyway, this part pretty much reminds me of characters that don't even try to dodge. For example, when Obito used Mokuton to immobilize BM Naruto, then I can say that Obito actually blitzed BM Naruto. However, I think this is sort of a reach because Naruto didn't seem like he was actually trying to even react. Same goes for Rinnegan Sasuke blitzed Juubidara. It didn't seem to me Juubidara was trying to react. Same goes for Naruto and Bee here. The part about exclamation marks is irrelevant. Exclamation mark is when a character is surprised by another character and reacts. Naruto and Bee weren't surprised here. In the next panel, Naruto starts yelling at Itachi in concern for Itachi's truth. Naruto and Bee simply didn't have to react. The mere fact that they were capable of keeping up JUST FINE throughout the entire rest of the battle proves my point. Now, onto Edo Tensei. I can't believe that you actually are saying Itachi broke out on his own lmao. If that was a possibility, I'm pretty damn sure Itachi would have done so right in the beginning of the battle and never fought against Naruto and Bee. God, stop reaching so much. Itachi was praised because HE was the one who had Shisui's eyes and HE was the one who implanted it into the crow which would eventually break him out. Kabuto wouldn't praise the ability of a dead man. And because you're reaching so much with this as well, I'll do the same. People DO get praised for borrowed powers. How? All people have borrowed power because they all have Chakra. Chakra belongs to the Chakra Fruit. Is the Chakra Fruit ever praised? No. So, I'll reach just like you and say that. A Genjutsu is an illusionary technique... It's not supposed to be realistic. Are you then telling me that the Infinite Tsukuyomi dreams and Izumi's Genjutsu dream are real? No... And even IF it does get counted, Hebi Sasuke being blitzed doesn't mean anything lol. Hebi Sasuke doesn't hold a candle to Obito. Pain never talked about Hebi Sasuke or Taka. He wasn't even alive in the time of Taka. The databooks say it take the breath away of the Akatsuki. Has nothing to do with Obito. Itachi WAS in the Akatsuki. Itachi was a double agent from the Leaf, but he joined the Akatsuki formally and was a member. He was doing their bidding. Assisting them in military service and even recruiting a new member (Deidara). Chapter 401 Pg. 7 "And join the Akatsuki to protect his village from the inside."

So Goofy Tobi (who is known for trolling) saying Sasuke is fast somehow means anything? First of all, there's a difference between acknowledging somebody and saying they're on your level. Bee stated Sasuke was one of the strongest Shinobi he ever faced, but he was mopping the floor with him. Second of all, as I said earlier, it was Goofy Tobi who said that.

Doesn't matter. The fact remains that Shikaku Nara ended up being wrong in his guess. Sure, MAYBE he was right, but the fact remains that Zetsu was the culprit. Therefore, Shikaku's word can be taken with a grain of salt. And even if he was right, all that confirms is that Itachi can control some fodder members of the Shinobi Alliance and a woman who wasn't a ninja. Compare that to Obito controlling a Perfect Jinchuriki for several years. Princeharris1993 wrote: If someone like Mifune can be told that his choices aren't his own, causing him to essentially be released from Koto, someone like Obito, who is a Uchiha and has the clan dojutsu, can most definitely break out of Tsukuyomi. I honestly forgot that even happened lol. Nice point.

About the stuff about the novels being canon or not, I'm not really sure. I've been told that they are written by other people, but apparently Kishimoto does the artwork. I've seen that a lot of people do view them as official though.