Talk:Sage Art: Super Tailed Beast Rasenshuriken

Shukkaku's Contribution
Is there any proof that Shukkaku's Rasenshuriken is actually using Magnet Release? LegionZero (talk) 19:26, June 15, 2020 (UTC)
 * It has the same markings that were present in the MG Rasengan Naruto used to seal one of Madara's shadows. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:30, June 15, 2020 (UTC)
 * Shukkaku uses those markings for non-Magnet release purposes as well. It was alsonsurrounded by sand unlikenthe MR Rasengan. Is it wise to use a "looks the same, therefore is the same" mentality? If that is the case then most of the clone pages need to be re-evaluated LegionZero (talk) 01:00, June 16, 2020 (UTC)
 * And the only instance of Naruto using it before involved MR. There's also the fact that every other tailed beast with a known applicable trait to it had that be present when Naruto used their chakra in this. Saying Shukaku's wasn't involved when so many other's were for whatever reason is wildly more speculative. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:59, June 16, 2020 (UTC)
 * Im not saying Shukkaku's chakra wasnt used. Im questioning the factual basis behind the claim that it is Magnet Release. It isnt shown/stated to be MR and it hasnt thown the effects of MR. Wouldnt it be more accurate to just say that it has sand? LegionZero (talk) 02:06, June 16, 2020 (UTC)
 * As far as I know, the utilized substances are never stated in any media, so it ultimately comes down to what does it look like. I think the article should make that fact more apparent: " " ~SnapperTo 05:22, June 16, 2020 (UTC)
 * Sand is actually not present at all in the MR Rasengan. Omnibender: It is more speculative to assume that it does than it doesn't. It could just be sand and that is the only observable contribution that can be seen. Not to mention that Magnet Relase on its own doesn't do damage, and Kaguya was not Magnetized. She also didn't have any Shukkaku curse marks on her present. It can't be accurately stated that it was Magnet Release when it doesnt have any of the effects of Magnet Release or MR Rasengan. For all we know, Shukkaku's chakra just manifests with those patterns. It shows a rather reckless disregard for the truth to assert/report that it is Magnet Release simply because it looks like another Magnet Release Jutsu. A jutsu mind you, that shares visual traits with non-Magnet Release Jutsu. LegionZero (talk) 09:16, June 16, 2020 (UTC)
 * I think it's based on "Wind Relese: Rasengan => Wind Release: Rasenshuriken" = "Magnet Release: Rasengan => Magnet Release: Rasenshuriken".
 * Besides, if the Juin isn't the MR in the MRR, then what else would be the MR? • Seelentau 愛 議 12:26, June 16, 2020 (UTC)
 * I dont know, but thats why i bring it up. It's so vague/inconsistant that it is presumptuous for the wiki to claim with certainty that it is in fact Magnet Release simply because it resembles another jutsu. LegionZero (talk) 19:19, June 16, 2020 (UTC)
 * Well, it's more than just "another jutsu", it's a direct evolution. The only difference is the additional sand. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:41, June 16, 2020 (UTC)
 * And how do you know that it is a direct evolution? There is no name/description/effects that tells us it has any of the properties of Magnet Release or similar functions to MR Rasengan. Why doesn't the wiki apply this standard to Saiken's contribution. Boil Release and Lava Release both create acidic substances but the wiki doesn't attribute him either of those KKG even though all his abilities look and function similarly to. There are too many variables when it comes to Shukkaku's abilities to accurately claim the properties of that Rasenshuriken. LegionZero (talk) 20:01, June 16, 2020 (UTC)
 * You're asking me how the Rasenshuriken is the direct evolution of the Rasengan? ô.o • Seelentau 愛 議 10:34, June 17, 2020 (UTC)
 * I'm asking how you know for a fact that the Shukkaku Rasenshuriken is an evolution of the Magnet Release Rasengan. For all we know its a Sandy Rasenshuriken. Unlike the MR Rasengan, this one apparently spawns sand. LegionZero (talk) 11:39, June 17, 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't know why it spawns sand. But it looks exactly like the MRR. I'm not going to pretend like I have some absolute proof, but we have to go by what we're presented with. And saying that it's a MRRS is the most logical conclusion, based on all available information found in the manga and databooks.
 * It's the same reason we list MR as being comprised of those two natures: Not because we've been explicitely told so, but it's the most logical conclusion based on the info we got from how kekkei genkai work.
 * Of course things can always change throughout the course of a manga, and there's no shame in correcting information if it later turns out false - we as a wiki do not claim to be an all-knowing, 100% of the time correct website. But we're also not going to change our ways because some dude says "uuh but it could be something else". Yes, it could be. But we'll concern ourselves with that if it's actually the case.
 * I mean, you have to remember what a fucking mess the Naruto manga is. It doesn't even make sense in itself, so there are many instances where we as a wiki have to take some liberty, as long as it's within reason of course. This is such a case. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:11, June 17, 2020 (UTC)
 * The basic natures that make up Magnet Release are found in 2 different users, so i think the extrapolation there has more evidence going for it than in this case. Basing claims on "it looks like something else" is not logical and poor practice. The wiki should make its claims based on observable information. At best it should be noted in the trivia that it appears to be based on MR Rasengan. The wiki doesnt claim Gaara to have Uzumaki ancestry because of his red hair. Or that Gaara is of Yamanak ancestry due to his pupil-less greenish eyes. It doesnt claim Jiraiya to be an Otsutsuki because of his white hair. There are many claims that can be made on this site based on design similarities. But if that is this wiki's practice I will make it proud. LegionZero (talk) 18:24, June 17, 2020 (UTC)
 * See, and that's why I don't involve myself with this shit anymore. I explicitely write "as long as it's within reason" and you give me Gaara's red hair as example. So yeah, that's where I'm out of this "discussion".
 * As a last word, if by "making proud" you mean you'll be adding shit like that to the articles: Go ahead and see what happens. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:27, June 17, 2020 (UTC)
 * And what makes that claim unreasonable compared to some of the one made by the wiki already? Thats the problem with claiming relationsips between things simply because it looks the same. You getting so upset and getting the banhammer ready when I say i am going to make changes using the logic and methodology set forth by you and others in charge of the wiki shows that there is an inherent flaw in the way things are handled here. LegionZero (talk) 20:21, June 17, 2020 (UTC)
 * But the markings on the magnet release rasengan do not appear on non-magnet release jutsu? the sealing pyramid technique has circles and swirls, just like the rasengan has circles and swirls, and just like the rasenshuriken has circles and swirls. All three of those techniques are magnet release, and no other technique besides these three have *circles and swirls* Kingomanoki (talk) 21:16, June 17, 2020 (UTC)
 * The sealing pyramid isnt a Magnet Release Jutsu. The markings themselves are just stated to be curse marks, not Magnet Release.LegionZero (talk) 21:42, June 17, 2020 (UTC)
 * But doesn't Shukaku use magnet release in tandem with his curse marks? Kingomanoki (talk) 23:02, June 18, 2020 (UTC)
 * MR Rasengan was the only time.LegionZero (talk) 00:09, June 19, 2020 (UTC)