Board Thread:Naruto Discussions/@comment-34700383-20180829185752/@comment-34700383-20180906043144

LegionZero wrote: The manga/databooks never made the connection between Juubi chakra and SPSM that you keep making The connection is made multiple times including the novel scan I provided earlier.

LegionZero wrote: The Yin-Yang databook entry attributes Naruto's healing abilities to Yin-Yang Release. Nothing to do with the seal.

Yin-Yang Release Databook Entry
 * having gained Hagoromo's power, Naruto was able to perfectly demonstrate the power of Yin and Yang release.[]

Sasuke Databook Entry
 * From the Rikudou Sennin, he awakened the Rinnegan and the key to the seal...[]/

6 Paths Chibaku Tensei Databook Entry
 * Six Paths Chibaku Tensei is invoked when two users simultaneously touch their target with the "Yin" and "Yang" seals.[]

Ch 681 p8
 * Zetsu talks about how powerful the seal used on Kaguya was and shows the marks on Naruto & Sasuke's hands

Nothing about the having healing abilities anywhere. Yin-yang release has a single known source, Rikudo senjutsu. You can't make claims of additional sources if you're not prepared to name them. Cite the other sources or concede.

LegionZero wrote: The databook doesnt back this. The SPSM entry doesnt attribute SPSM to the Bijuu. It is attributed to Hagoromo. Hagoromo didnt attribute SPSM to the Bijuu in the manga Hagoromo called out to each Biju chakra inside Naruto. He and the Biju verified them as one of conditions Naruto had met. There is another condition that is Naruto' mentality, which was necessary to aquire rsm. The juubi chakra is necessary to use rsm, this was explained in the OP as well as with the provided novel scan. Don't mistake one condition for the other. I keep saying this but you always ignore it. Rsm has multiple requirements hagoromo called them conditions, kurama confirmed Naruto met those conditions. I've been teaching you about one of those conditions. But you refuse to learn. You keep telling me about the condition that cause Naruto to receive rsm. I made it clear that this isn't about that. This is about the condition Naruto met to use rsm. The same way driving a car requires you to first aquire a car, to know how to drive a car, and to have fuel in the tank for the car to work. Naruto' fuel for his car was the juubi' chakra, as confirmed by multiple sources. Stop telling me about how he got the car. We all know that already.

LegionZero wrote: "Debunked" Kurama Sage Mode has orange eyes, not yellow.

Naruto didnt gather Nature Energy himself in The Last but he had the Orange Cross Eyes and Toad Sage pigments. His eye indicate that he in fact did gather that nature energy himself. As there is manga evidence supporting this.

LegionZero wrote: The problem with this is that Bijuu chakra was never mentioned to be a pre-req for any form of SP Senjutsu. Hagoromo/Hamura achieved SP Senjutsu prior to sealing Kaguya. Hagoromo retained SP Senjutsu after he expelled the 10 Tails. Read the OP again it tells you how Obito and Madara and Naruto each gained Rikudo senjutsu and it involves the Biju. I also provided a novel scan that confirms the Biju requirement for becoming a juubi jinchuriki which grants Rikudo senjutsu. The Biju were mentioned as conditions, a condition that all Rikudo senjutsu users meet. Again, cite those other sources of Rikudo senjutsu or concede.

LegionZero wrote: Naruto's SPSM is an ability given by Hagoromo and it is a unique form of SP Senjutsu. The databook says this many times. He also had SPSM active prior utilizing the Bijuu's chakra. This is made clear when he asked Son Goku to lend him chakra for his Rasenshuriken.

The Juubi/10 Tails Coffin Seal is a shortcut to SP Senjutsu because the Juubi is a natural mix of 6 Paths Chakra and nature energy so the Jinchuriki gains this attribute as well. Madara like much of the power hungry cast of Naruto didn't understand what being a sage of six paths was. Obito thought he and Madara and nagato were Rikudo sages simply because they each were rinnegan users. Then Kabuto thought he was the closest thing to sage of six paths because of his body modifications. Then Madara becomes a jinchuriki and remarks so this is six paths power. They don't fully understand Rikudo sagehood, and that's because it wasn't fully explained to them. They are only comparing themselves to and chasing after the power and capabilities hagoromo had. They are forgetting about the mindset hagoromo carried. The same mindset ashura and Naruto had. This is why I keep telling you there are multiple conditions for rsm. The condition for it's power source which is Rikudo senjutsu that allows one to use rsm. And the condition to receive the form which is the mindset deeming one worthy of the mode itself. Naruto met both conditions. Stop making the same error. Hagoromo made himself clear.

LegionZero wrote: The cloak Naruto had in 4SWW doesnt appear to be the same as cloak as KCM. It doesnt make his skin glow and it has different markings.

My theory is that this 4SWW cloak manifests because of the other 8 Tailed Beasts chakra.

It mimics the Coffin Seal Senjutsu's effects on clothes, hair, and has the tomoe and symbol on the back. Because Naruto doesnt truly have the 10 Tails, the cloak/hair dont materialize as a solid because he doesnt have the Gedo to properly bind together the beasts, but he gets the back marking because the parts are there. This would also explain why he only gets 9 TSB while Madara/Obito/Hagoromo got 10

Everything after the 4SWW was used only Kurama's chakra. Likely because Naruto has only small portions of the other beasts so he can talk to them. One thing that doesn't change is how to identify Rikudo senjutsu. What does change is who gathers the senjutsu between Naruto or kurama, and the amount of kurama Naruto has. When Naruto gathers the senjutsu his eyes produce rings around them. When kurama gathers the senjtsu, there are no rings. No rings doesn't indicate anything else besides the biju gathering the senjutsu. Rikudo senjutsu indicates rsm', or rather the power to use rsm. It is rsm' power condition. This isn't theory. This is backed by manga novel databook evidence.

LegionZero wrote: "Debunked" Kurama Sage Mode has orange eyes, not yellow.

Naruto didnt gather Nature Energy himself in The Last but he had the Orange Cross Eyes and Toad Sage pigments. In the last, naruto' eyes had rings about them, he gathered the senjutsu. Again, manga evidence supports this

LegionZero wrote: And where is your proof Kurama gathered that Nature Energy? The evidence is in the lack of rings around his eyes in that instance. They prove kurama was the cuplrit of that gathered senjutsu. What they don't prove is rsm because that form lacks the conditional Rikudo senjutsu.

LegionZero wrote: Its was established in the Last that Naruto can use Natural Energy gathered by Kurama to enter toad Sage Mode Stop with these drastic leaps in logic and empty claims. That actual working translation of the last guidebook states:

' Kurama Chakra Mode

Naruto exhibits overwhelming power when borrowing massive amounts of chakra from Kurama, who is sealed within him. Furthermore, when used in conjunction with “sennin mode,” it drastically increases his sensory ability and the power of the ninjutsu he employs…!!

Caption for Naruto in Kurama chakra mode: The Shishou Fuuin becomes visible, and his chakra overflows like flames.'

It only states Naruto can use sage mode with kurama mode, which we know because that's the same power he had before he gained rikudo senjtus and rsm. Having only kurama now, this makes sense.

LegionZero wrote: Naruto isnt even on page 14  Thanks for the correction. I meant page 18. I also updated that response with links to the relevant pages.

LegionZero wrote: He activated SPSM+Kurama mode. Naruto needs Rikudo senjutsu to enter rsm. Since this form lacks that, this can't be rsm. This is kurama mode and sage mode, just like in the last, only achieved differently. The difference being who gathers the senjutsu. And just like when Naruto uses kurama sage mode for the first time he says he can gather natural energy faster. The last guidebook translation I shared above also states that ksm increases sensory and power of ninjutsu. Show me evidence of naruto' kurama mode and rsm working together. Show me manga novel databook evidence that they're used in conjunction. Especially in the same chaptetmr 700+4 where you claim he's doing this. Show me Naruto using both the abilities of rsm and that of kurama mode together. I'll concede if you have that in spades.

Littlegen wrote: 1) Six Paths Senjutsu is Kaguya's power.

LegionZero wrote: Ironically enough shes not listed as a user, but i agree since the manga makes it clear that becoming host to her chakra grants this ability. It's more accurately the juubi' power. So that would also be correct but only when she's merged with the shinju. Also notice that she produced a ETSO before she separated herself from the juubi', confirming it's the source of that power.

Littlegen wrote:

2) Hagoromo and Hamura's working in unison could have recreated her Chakra to form Six Paths: Catastrophic Planetary Construction. LegionZero wrote: Thats... possible There's numerous possibilities since nothing concrete was stated as to how the seals came about or how they had the power to use them successfully the first time.

LegionZero wrote: Except he retained the ability after extracting the Juubis chakra and after death Except he didn't. He was not a juubi jinchuriki when he spoke to Naruto. The juubi was in one place during that time, inside Madara. The best argument you can make is that juubi chakra can be in multiple places at once, which Naruto proved proved possible by awakening Rikudo senjutsu without having the actual juubi inside him. But even then hagoromo' alleged Rikudo senjutsu is debunked because he needed the lower half of Madara to resurrect himself. He would've returned sooner if he already had that power. Relying on Madara' fragmented power proves he didn't have it himself.

Littlegen wrote: 5) Ashura's "Bodily Chakra" is in fact Ashura learning to infuse Ninjutsu or Senjutsu Chakra and he didn't receive power from Hagoromo. I like to believe that Ashura did get power but this is backed by nothing. This is indeed possible. Even looking at the samurai they utilize chakra constructs. After Ashura obtained his true strength he could have taken the concept from the samurai after seeing Indra show up up with his bigass chakra mech. Why specualt when I already proved ashura and hagoromo used ninshu. This was his method of achieving Rikudo senjutsu, it was his mindset and reslove that awarded him Rsm.

LegionZero wrote: Databook says he receievd SPSM itself from the Hagoromo

Continuing with the car and the gas analogy The databook states because of naruto' mindset, he got the car from hagoromo. The databook also states he kicked the TSO, which required a certain level of gas. Both conditions are stated there.