Talk:Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki

Chakra natures
Is the information that Rinnegan gives the user ability to master all basic chakra natures enough to put them in his infobox?--LeafShinobi (talk) 16:51, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * No, but the fact that he created ninjutsu is enough to put it there.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 17:12, October 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * He discovered the mysteries of chakra. Considering that after the Sage, Madara is the earliest known user of the Rinnegan, and that people already fabled the Rinnegan as allowing one to use the five natures, it makes sense for him to be listed as having them. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:37, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

Not to mention he created that Banana Fan thingamajig. I don't think he could've made that without knowing them. Skitts (talk) 18:29, October 30, 2011 (UTC)

Rinnegan
Are we really sure that Sage had the Rinnegan before becoming a host ? I think it's a speculation.--Elveonora (talk) 16:07, November 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * The problem with that statement is that we've only seen him with the Rinnegan. Joshbl56  18:17, November 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't understand how the two incidents are related? The eldest son wouldn't have inherited a dōjutsu if that were the case, tailed beast skills aren't hereditary.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 18:20, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

Are you sure ? Naruto and Gaara are affected by their Tailed Beasts and tell this to Uchiha. Ten-Tails has eye that looks like Sharingan, if having a tailed beast is not hereditary, then there would be no Sharingan in Uchiha. Unless Sage had Sharingan as well. --Elveonora (talk) 19:02, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure given the information we have currently. Naruto and "Gaara" (to some extent though his father has the same eyes so I can't speak 100% about the rings or even his abilities) gained physical traits from their beasts, not otherwise. There is Rōshi but at the same time we don't know if he'd be able to use it without the beast. The Sharingan is an "offspring" of the original and apparently only dōjutsu: the Rinnegan. We've even seen where Kabuto has said "what lies beyond the Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan..." It seems like somewhere along the line on descendants the eyes changed etc. The Jūbi's eye cab look like all three of the great dōjutsu if you wanted it to.--Cerez365™ 19:16, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

We are at least pretty sure (at least now) that Sharingan is from Ten-Tails, unless as I said it would mean that Sage had both. That would really make him a God. I don't think he had any eye powers before of becoming a host, that's why I'm discussing this and why the page is speculative saying he found jutsu thanks to Rinnegan. --Elveonora (talk) 19:22, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

I would like to hear more people's opinions on this and admin's as well. --Elveonora (talk) 20:27, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

I think that saying he got the Rinnegan because he became a host is highly speculative. We've known him as having the kekkei genkai for much longer than him having the beast. Like it was said already, there we've never seen him without the Rinnegan, or at least awakening it for the first time. Considering what we know about it, I think it's least speculative to say he had it before. While sealing the Ten-Tails is a big feat, he is first and foremost known for discovering chakra and creating what came to be called ninjutsu. To seal something, use of fūinjutsu is required, ergo, we would have had to discover ninjutsu before sealing the Ten-Tails. The Rinnegan was said to allow one to use all sorts of ninjutsu. This leads me to him having the Rinnegan before sealing the Ten-Tails. I'm not saying the other way is impossible, but it would require more explanation, so this sounds much more likely to me. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:01, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

Rinnegan has no genjutsu powers we know of. That would make it as rare as Wood Release Thinking that the 2 most powerful abilities (Sharingan and Rinnegan) in Narutoverse are just a mere mutation is silly. So6p being really a demi-God is possible. As I said, Uchiha are descended from So6p ... they possess the Sharingan. People say that Sage casted a genjutsu on Ten-Tails and thats why its eyes has the Rinnegan like pattern. As I said, there are no genjutsu powers of Rinnegan we know of. That would still mean that Sharingan is from Ten-Tails and that Tailed Beast powers are hereditary. Another but weird possibility is that Sage's original eyes were Sharingan and he get the Rinnegan from Ten-Tails. It would be much more believable one of his sons inherited the eyes from him and not from the beast inside of him. --Elveonora (talk) 22:39, November 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * And we know Ice Release, Wood Release much longer that them being a KKG.
 * We have not seen Nagato's eyes without the Rinnegan as well
 * We have not seen So6p awakening it, seriously ? We have not yet seen him at all other than the silhouette.
 * Madara can switch between the Rinnegan and EMS ... and turn them on and off.
 * The point being that the Rinnegan and Sharingan are the one and same eyes, meaning that Sharingan has not devolved from Rinnegan nor evolved.
 * Kabuto said it's a natural evolution meaning it's possible to attain the Rinnegan from a Sharingan by normal but unknown means.
 * Taking Hashirama's cells is a forced evolution.
 * When Rinnegan and Sharingan were once basically the same, this mean Sage had a Sharingan as well.
 * This would mean that the Ten-Tail's single unique eye is not unique at all and it was just a result of being under So6p's genjutsu.
 * If Sage was born with the Rinnegan, it must really be just a mutation as Kakashi said.
 * Or Sage was really a demi-God
 * Or the most possible variant is he get that from Ten-Tails.

-Ahem- Not a forum. Anyway, the Sage did not have the Sharingan. I don't have to theorize or anything to state that. His son had his own dojutsu, which was visually very similar to the Rinnegan. The Sharingan evolved from the Elder Son's dojutus, ergo it is very odd to say the Sage had it. And I too find it very unlikely and much less speculative to say he had the Rinnegan before the Jubi sealing. Being able to see chakra would definitely be a big help in divining the mysteries of chakra, which he did. Skitts (talk) 22:43, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

Read again please. If Rinnegan is a natural evolution from Sharingan, this would make Sharingan a degradation. If Uchiha got the Sharingan from Ten-Tails, this mean it's not related to Rinnegan since you say Sage had it before sealing thus it cant be an degradation nor evolution of it. If Sage had both Sharingan and Rinnegan before sealing, this would make it more believable that one of his son's line inherited the eyes from Sage rather than fron the Ten-Tails ... but this would leave the Ten-Tail's without any kind of unique eye thus the only possible version is Sage getting an eye technique after the sealing. And I know its not a forum ... I'm discussing it to improve the page. Saying Sage found chakra/jutsu thanks to being born with Rinnegan was not confirmed and it's more of a speculation to what Im saying. --Elveonora (talk) 23:10, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

Except it isn't speculative and I did read your post properly. Several things are being assumed, such as that the Sage didn't have his sons before he was a jinchuuricki and that the Uchiha's possession of the Sharingan is related to the Jubi. I didn't say that the Rinnegan was the sole reason the Sage mastered the use of chakra, and even if I had, that wouldn't have been nearly as speculative as saying he had the Sharingan or whatever. We all know that the 3 dojutsu give varying degrees of chakra sight. Also, he learned to make use of chakra through ninjutsu before he sealed the Jubi (duh). Also, you're assuming that the evolution of a particular bodily function is automatically better than its previous incarnation, which is incorrect. Skitts (talk) 23:31, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

Sorry then, but you see this point. Ten-Tail's eye look like a combination of both Sharingan and Rinnegan. If it was due to Beast being uder Sage's genjutsu, Sage had Sharingan as well or Sage's Rinnegan was with genjutsu powers. If he had just Rinnegan, Sharingan is from Ten-Tails. If Sharingan is from Ten-Tails, can't be a lower level of Rinnegan ... see my point ? :) If Rinnegan is an evolution from Sharingan, and Sage got Rinnegan before ... then Ten-Tail's has no special eye and this mean Sage had Sharingan as well. But you disagree with Sage having a Sharingan thus my "speculation" being plausible. --Elveonora (talk) 23:35, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

If the Sage had the Rinnegan and the Ten-Tails had the Sharingan, why would it be "higher" than the Rinnegan? The Sage did seal the Ten-Tails, so wouldn't that put the powers of the Rinnegan above the powers of the Sharingan? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:45, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

Yes. that's why I'm saying both Sharingan and Rinnegan stemms from 1 source, if it's Sage or Ten-Tails ... dunno. But I'm saying Ten-Tails. EDIT: Unless your question is if it's from the same source, why is Rinnegan stronger than Sharingan. Not really, EMS and Rinnegan are more or less equal in power. No reason to compare, that would be like comparing Sage Mode and Rikudou Mode. Not have much with the topic. --Elveonora (talk) 00:01, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

I don't mean to interrupt, but who says the Ten-Tails has to have a special eye? Who says that the Sharingan can't be evolved from the Rinnegan? Some snakes developed gills to leave in the sea, but lost the lungs. What if the Sage's son that inherited his eyes had the Rinnegan, but his children lost the Rinnegan and developed the Sharingan because of the world not needing such power? It is said in a legend that a user with the Rinnegan only comes in times of need, who would destroy the world, or create a better world, for example, Nagato. Nagato was the "god of creation" that the legend talked about, although instead of creating a better world himself, he helped make a huge step in creating a better one. What I'm saying is that you are all speculating that the Ten-Tails needs a special eye. I do not read much of the manga, but thanks to your wiki and the anime I have been able to conclude all this. Like Nagato, I hope that this helps to create a world of understanding within the wiki. Max042599 (talk) 00:50, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

thanks for being part of the discussion, but the point being is that if the Ten-Tails has no such eye and it was all just a reflection of Sage's eyes, he had Sharingan as well. If the Ten-Tail's original eye was Rinnegan, Sage had Sharingan. If the Ten-Tail's eye was a Sharingan, Sage had Rinnegan. But then Rinnegan can't be a step from Sharingan if Sage had it before. Meaning there's only one source of eye techniques (Byakugan is a mystery to this) and I think it's Ten-Tails. If it's Sage, people won't accept he had a Sharingan as well and this would make less sense since Tobi need to be Ten-Tail's host to boost his eye powers. --Elveonora (talk) 01:05, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

So with this I'm going to go with the "this isn't a forum" speech because these theories aren't bettering any articles or getting us any where. We represent information as we see it, not based off theories or assumptions.--Cerez365™ 01:14, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Before ending this friendly discussion I would like to hear out ShounenSuki's opinion as well. I will no longer reply until further manga evidence then ... --Elveonora (talk) 01:40, November 30, 2011 (UTC)


 * My gods, this discussion has got out of hand… So if I'm not mistaken, it's about whether the Sage had the Rinnegan before becoming the Jūbi's jinchūriki, right? if so, the answer is really: we simply don't know.
 * I could speculate, of course. It is heavily implied that the Sage used his Rinnegan to develop ninjutsu, and he used ninjutsu to seal the Jūbi, hence he should have had the Rinnegan before beciming a jinchūriki. Still, we really won't know for certain until we're shown an image of the sage from before he had become a jinchūriki.
 * The connection between the Sharingan and the Rinnegan is still quite murky as well. We know the Rinnegan can be awakened from the Sharingan, but we don't know if this is entirely natural. Senju genes are most likely involved and who knows what other physical alterations. Still, the Sharingan does have Rinnegan potential, so to speak. However, this doesn't mean that the Sage had the Sharingan as well. It could very well be that the Rinnegan came first, only to slowly 'degrade' into the Sharingan over the centuries, while still carrying the potential to become a Rinnegan, if only when mixed with Senju genes. —ShounenSuki (talk 01:56, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Then if Sage had Rinnegan and it degraded into Sharingan generations later, and with Senju genes its possible to awake Rinnegan from Sharingan, then how is it that back then Ten-Tail's eye appeared with Sharingan pattern ? Sage would had it before or it was Ten-Tail's natural eye and the Rinnegan patern was because it was under Sage's control. Or both Sharingan and Rinnegan is Ten-Tail's original eye. Rinnegan could not degrade into Sharingan when it appeared even back then, so Sage had Sharingan/Rinnegan before or it was Ten-Tail's eye and he got that after sealing. I don't know if its that hard to understand what Im talking about ... english is not my native language but hopefully now you understand what I mean. So: --Elveonora (talk) 14:44, November 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * Sage had Rinnegan and Ten-Tails had Sharingan (It appeared with the Rinnegan pattern due to be under Sage's genjutsu) ... then how is it that Sharingan can turn into Rinnegan when the two are not related ? Uchiha possess Sharingan, this would indicate that Tailed Beast powers/features are hereditary and another problem is that Rinnegan has no know genjutsu powers.
 * Sage had Sharingan and Ten-Tails Rinnegan (It was under Sage Sharingan's genjutsu) "possible"
 * Sage had both Sharingan and Rinnegan and Ten-Tails was under his genjutsu. "possible"
 * Sage had none and gained them after becoming the host "I support this"

I'm sorry, and I realize this isn't supposed to be a forum-esqe thing, but I have to say something. Everyone seems to be forgetting some very important facts in regards to the Rin'negan.
 * First: The Rin'negan, unlike most other Doujutsu, affects the whole body. It manifests most visually in the eyes, but it's powers are not limited to the eyes themselves, mental functions, or chakra. The whole body is part of the Rin'negan. Evidence: The Six Paths.
 * Second: The Sharingan is an ability focused almost entirely upon the eyes and chakra - for the sake of this particular issue, we'll say that the Sharingan eyes focus more on the "spiritual" side of nin, gen, and taijutsu. By contrast, the Uzumaki and Senju strengths tend to deal either with the body or the physical side of chakra - in other words, they create solid things with chakra, like wood and chains, and have extended life spans and more robust bodies.
 * Third: Each of the Sage's two sons was said to have inherited a different part (or "half," if you will) of his power. The older son inherited his "eyes," his immense chakra and spiritual energy (see my second point), while the younger inherited his "body," his strong will and physical energy.

Therefore, neither the older or younger son alone is capable of using the Rin'negan. The same could be said of their descendants. In order to awaken the Rin'negan, a descendant of either son must have spliced or combined his genes or body with a descendant of the other son. In essence, they have to combine the Sage's spiritual energy with his physical energy (which equals - go figure - chakra) - his "eyes" with his "body". We must conclude, then, that the Sharingan as we know it is a mutation of the older son's eyes, and did not, in fact, exist before the Rin'negan. Whether or not the mutation of the Sharingan into its present form is a result of the Sage being a Jinchuuriki is irrelevant, because neither Madara nor Nagato had to become a Jinchuuriki in order to awaken the Rin'negan.

There is, in fact, evidence that the Rin'negan cannot be unlocked without the genes of both sons - the real Madara admitted that he didn't acheive his until just before his death, and that he had to absorb some of Hashirama's genes/DNA/powers first. Likewise, he also hinted that he had something to do with Nagato unlocking his Rin'negan, though what that might actually be is still a mystery that Kishimoto might never reveal.

On the issue of the Ten Tails, you're assuming that it had to be related to the Sage in some way or manner, and that its eye was either a reflection of the Sage's eye or his method of gaining the Rin'negan in the first place. You're coming up with a number of convoluted theories to explain the Juubi's eye in relation to the Sage's eyes, when in reality the simplest and least convoluted explanation is that they aren't related at all. I cannot explain how the Juubi has its one "ultimate" eye, but you must keep in mind that the Juubi, like the Bijuu later created from it, is a monstrous construct of chakra. Even with a physical body, that body is not limited in the same manner a human body would be, ergo it's entirely possible that it can have both the Sharingan and the Rin'negan at the same time. Or, far more likely, the only reason we assume that the Sharingan is involved is the comma marks along each of the eye's rings, when it may actually be that the Sharingan is not involved at all. In fact, it's almost certain that the Sharingan wasn't involved because the Sharingan as we know it did not exist at that time. We assume that the comma markings have some sort of significance, but it may simply be that they have no significance at all beyond something symbolic that we don't actually know.

Please, for the sake of my sanity, remember Occam's Razor. I really don't like to risk the wrath of the site's authority over some convoluted theories built on half-remembered knowledge.--James D. Fawkes (talk) 21:30, February 11, 2012 (UTC)

nickname
Isn't "God" also Sage's nickname ? Kabuto said that with Madara he can touch a fragment of this God's power. --Elveonora (talk) 18:39, December 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * "God of Shinobi"?--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 18:48, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

Just "God" "God" is Nagato's nickname. Kabuto called Sage a God as well so I think it should be directed. --Elveonora (talk) 19:08, December 1, 2011 (UTC)


 * Just because his power was called 'the power of God' or 'the power of the Gods', doesn't mean that 'God' is his nickname. It just means that people considered his power to be like that of a god, which is why he was called the 'God of Shinobi'. The Sage himself was never simply called 'God'. Now the word 'god' looks all weird to me… —ShounenSuki (talk 22:10, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

"the power of this god" its a clear reference to him. Its not like "godly power" And why weird ? --Elveonora (talk) 22:21, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

Also, do you have something more to say to the Rinnegan stuff ? --Elveonora (talk) 22:34, December 1, 2011 (UTC)


 * I never said it wasn't a reference to the Sage. I just said that calling the power 'the power of (that) god' doesn't mean that the Sage was nicknamed simply 'god'. It just means that he was seen as a kind of god, hence his nickname 'God of Shinobi'.
 * As for the Rinnegan thing, I only have to add that just because the Jūbi had tomoe in his eye doesn't mean he had anything related to the Sharingan. The point of the matter is that we simply do not have enough information to draw any substantial conclusions about how the dōjutsu really relate to one another and what exactly the deal was with the Sage and the Jūbi. —ShounenSuki (talk 22:37, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough, --Elveonora (talk) 22:39, December 1, 2011 (UTC)

Spelling correction
Its Rokudo (Roku = six, do = path) not Rikudo (Riku = land/shore or agony of separation). Corrected it in the main article but not sure how to fix it in the side info box. --65.182.237.52 (talk) 06:57, December 27, 2011 (UTC) Abe ;)
 * Read Talk:Sage of the Six Paths/Archive 1. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:50, December 27, 2011 (UTC)

Wood Style
Why doesnt the sage of the six paths have Wood Style listed as one of his KKG? In chapter 510 Tobi stated the Sot6p was both clans and both bloodlines in one person. This would mean that both bloodlines are needed to gain the rinnengan.

98.80.108.193 (talk) 16:32, January 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Because Hashirama was the first person ever to have Wood Release, much later in history. Just because the Sage originated the line Wood Release appeared into, it doesn't mean he had. Bloodlines change over time. What you're asking is the equivalent of adding Sharingan to Tsunade, because like the Uchiha, she's also a descendent of the Sage. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:44, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

Maybe he had, maybe not ... sorry Omni, I just one comment. Kabuto commented on Madara being a fragment of Sage's power, so Sage should have it as well. Isn't it possible for something to appear dozen of generations later ? --Elveonora (talk) 19:23, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

No. Madara had the Rinnegan. Kabuto's statement was in regards to that, not Wood Release, which Madara didn't even use until after Kabuto made that statement. Hashirama was the original possessor of Wood Release. Skitts (talk) 19:43, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

"Hashirama was the original possessor of Wood Release" Yeah, until Kishi states otherwise. Hashirama is the original source just as Sharingan came from Byakugan and Rinnegan is a mutation. --Elveonora (talk) 20:46, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

Your Byakugan point came from Kakashi who himself said it was a rumor. This has been stated by characters in the series as fact. Your Rinnegan point is moot as it also comes from Kakashi, who believed the Sage to be a myth, which we knwo to be false becasuse of the Tailed Beasts referencing him and the fact that they named him (and the existence of the Naka Shrine Tablet.)Skitts (talk) 20:53, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

That was an example. The "fact" stays as long as not proven wrong or otherwise. For years Kyubi was some demon fox and as well as other Tailed Beasts evil, now they are just tinny pets. I think what OP is asking ... if Uchiha + Senju = So6p power/blood/Rinnegan whatever, that would mean when you take flesh from any random Senju not just Hashirama, you get the Rinnegan (this is not confirmed but likely) or just simply to "mimic" Sage's power/blood ?

It was always said that sharingan + HASHIRAMA'S power = power of So6p This would mean that Madara/Tobi/Sasuke/Any Uchiha taking Tobirama's flesh instead would result in So6p power, but this does not seems to be the case. --Elveonora (talk) 21:14, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

OP is saying that Wood Release should be in the Sage's infobox because Hashirama was his blood. Things were explained, and now you're just speculating. Elveonora, more often than not the discussions you take part into turn into forum talk. Please police yourself. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:18, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

(E/C) Pretty sure Hashirama is used because he's essentially the best his clan ever had or was said to have. I mean, he defeated Madara and Kurama alone, had the power of Wood Release, and could control several Tailed Beasts by himself. Wh would you choose anyone else? Noting in the series implies that the So6P had anything to do with Wood Release and everything has stated and shown that Hashirama is the original possessor of it.

Edit: Only the Kyubi and Shukaku were regarded as 'evil' in the series, and that was because of the former attack Konoha and the latter having extreme blood lust.. The other Tailed Beasts didn't get referenced or brought up until much later, and even then the weren't all said to be evil.Skitts (talk) 21:21, January 2, 2012 (UTC)

Let's end the forum talk. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:33, January 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Like I said, no more forum talk. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:51, January 3, 2012 (UTC)

All Kekkei Genkai
Wouldn't it make sense if the Sage had every known Kekkei Genkai? I mean, how else did it start.

The first hokage probably was the first to activate this style, not create it. Antonino200 (talk) 20:21, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

Hashirama was said to be the only possessor of Wood Release (naturally). And no, it wouldn't make any sense if he had every KKG. KKGs are a result of a certain combination of genes, and obviously the Sage didn't have every combination of genes, much less every KKG. Also, not a forum. Skitts (talk) 20:23, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

The Sage was never said to have given birth to humanity, he just taught them how to use chakra so no it doesn't make any sense.--Cerez365™ 20:29, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

Protection ?
This page keeps being vandalised. I think it might be good to protect all the pages with a lot of text on them or the pages concerning very important people in the series. --speysider (talk) 20:21, February 1, 2012 (UTC)

That popular mistranslation again
Could anyone provide me a link where Suki-senpai translated that famous mistranslation about two paths and all? People are still asking about it and I want to check if my own translation is correct. Seelentau 愛議 19:13, February 22, 2012 (UTC)