Talk:Infinite Tsukuyomi

Picture
I think a depiction of the tabula rasa genjutsu from the referenced episode would be better than the moon-eye-thing, mh? Seelentau 愛議 11:47, March 18, 2014 (UTC)


 * I have a bigger question. When did this get an article back? And sure the tablet is fine I guess.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:26, March 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * A few hours ago. I asked about it on Tsukuyomi's talk page, but no one really bothered to answer, so I decided to act on my own, since this technique obviously deserves its own article. And no, not the tablet, the white space with Madara and Obito in it. That's the Mugen Tsukuyomi, as stated by Madara himself. Seelentau 愛議 13:33, March 18, 2014 (UTC)


 * Tablet, that empty space Madara got young in, whatever. Same thing. Use that that.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:48, March 18, 2014 (UTC)

"parent jutsu: tsukuyomi"
Again guys, what I've been saying for a while. Just because both are called Tsukuyomi doesn't mean they are related. Because it would mean that users of this are users of MS's Tsukuyomi by default, yet Obito has only Kamui to our knowledge. Not to mention Madara cast this just with an ordinary Sharingan.--Elveonora (talk) 13:46, March 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Seelentau 愛議 14:07, March 18, 2014 (UTC)

tailed beast skill?
It does require either the ten-tails or its chakra. (Sidenote: is Kaguya a pseudo-jinchuuriki?) MangekyoSasuke (talk) 07:57, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * She is also a user I suppose and the technique's creator.--Elveonora (talk) 12:31, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

confused
About how much different this technique is compared to what was said and shown earlier by Madara and done by Obito in the movie... @Seel, explanation? ._. I knew it was matrix no jutsu, but this is now straight copied from there--Elveonora (talk) 12:32, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * There's no difference. What Madara showed to Obito is Mugen Tsukuyomi. It's a Sharingan jutsu, not a Mangekyō Sharingan jutsu. The user has a white world in which he captures mankind and creates a world for them. Seelentau 愛議 12:38, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * But Obito nor Naruto and Sakura were sucked by an angry tree--Elveonora (talk) 12:54, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Indeed. So? It's not a necessity to cast Mugen Tsukuyomi. Seelentau 愛議 13:20, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Perhaps. But the restoration of Shinju's fruit seem to be the ulterior motive behind the technique rather than what Madara was preaching about true peace. Also since Kaguya came up with that, does that mean she wanted to eat a second fruit?--Elveonora (talk) 13:28, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Who knows~ Seelentau 愛議 13:30, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * The unspoken implication of her actions is that she would have had her own sons live inside of cocoons or what nasty stuff and suck their chakras. What a sense of motherly love she had.--Elveonora (talk) 13:45, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * I believe that is more speculation about the fruit, that dragging everyone into the technique while it feeds on their chakra could possibly create a new fruit. --Gojita (talk) 15:06, April 2, 2014 (UTC)Gojita

Limited Tsukuyomi
Okay. I'm just going to flat out say no on Madara having used a "Limited Tsukuyomi". He used a small scale Infinite Tsukuyomi. Limited Tsukuyomi, firstly, was a movie-only technique. Secondly, if the new chapter is to be believed, Kaguya used the Infinite Tsukuyomi despite the fact that her son wouldn't create the moon until close to his own death. The moon isn't a requirement unless it is to be used on a worldwide scale. As clearly shown by Madara, it can be used on individuals as well. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 05:01, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Indeed. The moon and the rooting of humans is optional. The Mugen Tsukuyomi is just the white world. Seelentau 愛議 08:03, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

Why Obito?
Why is Obito listed as a user? If its because he used the Limited Tsukuyomi, shouldn't he be listed as Movie-Only?--The Zeitgeist (talk) 20:17, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

Its because he was going to use it. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 20:20, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

Alright then.--The Zeitgeist (talk) 20:25, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

Clarification about the completion of the plan
"To trap every human being in this genjutsu, however, the Sharingan has to reflect onto the moon's surface using the eye of the Shinju. In order to do this, (with the exception of Kaguya) one must become its jinchūriki while possessing the power of the Rinnegan. Upon getting close to the moon within the sky, the jinchūriki can remove the natural plating from their forehead to manifest a third eye in the form of the Shinju's Sharingan."

I think that this part of the article could led to misunderstandings and should be fixed: apparently seems indicate that the only way to complete the plan for the Jinchuuriki of the Juubi is to get the Shinju's Sharingan through a third eye, but actually this is just a possible way. The real key element of the plan is to create a connection between the user of the genjutsu and the Shinju's sharingan, so to amplify the power and the range of the illusion: actually the "ordinary" way for achieving it should be the revival of the Shinjuu in his Tree shape, through the revival of the Juubi tamed by his Jinchuuriki. Like stated by Madara during Obito's battle, the blossom of the flower on the top of the Shinjuu would have revealed his 9 tomoe Sharingan's eye that, reflected on the moon, would have allowed to the Jinchuuriki to cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi.

After the cut of the tree and the absorption of it, we should think that Madara decided to go with this second way to cast the genjutsu (to allow the birth of the Shinju's eye in his forehand), just because the previous one of Obito is now impossible to achieve.

PS: I also thought that maybe Madara can develope the Shinju's eye in his forehand because now the God Tree is inside him, but of course this is just complete speculation not supported by the words of the Uchiha in the last chapter.--JK88 (talk) 10:19, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * It was in him all along tho.--Elveonora (talk) 10:53, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

dunno
Isn't the Shinju also a user, considering Obito planned to use its eye to cast the technique?--Elveonora (talk) 10:36, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

Bump--Elveonora (talk) 17:01, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

You said yourself, Obito was going to use it through the Shinju. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:22, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * So does that mean yes or no? Who is the one in use in this case isn't relevant. I'm considering the Shinju to be also a user because its eye is required for the technique--Elveonora (talk) 18:33, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Before, I'd have agreed, but now I'm on the fence. Madara became the host as well, but he only cast the IT after acquiring both Rinnegan to get the eye. Kaguya wasn't a jinchūriki, but she was able to cast it as well. Obito seems to be somewhere in the middle, being the host like Madara, but not having the third eye. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:47, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * So Infinite Tsukuyomi can be used by:


 * eating magical fruit = third eye
 * having both Rinnegan eyes and approaching the moon = third eye
 * using the Shinju's eye which looks just the same

I think from this we can conclude that:
 * Kaguya and Shinju's eye are the same, this one is obvious, since she got it from its fruit
 * Madara and Kaguya's eye are the same, hence forehead-eye
 * The three therefore have the same eye

Since they are the same, how the eye is attained is irrelevant, or not? Point being, it's within the Shinju's powers to use Infinite Tsukuyomi too :)--Elveonora (talk) 20:25, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

Correct me if I'm wrong. But lets imagine a situation in which a jinchuuriki uses Tailed Beast Ball, without his/her bijuu having been seen doing so ever. So since its jinchuuriki can use a Tailed Beast Skill, isn't it within reason that so can the bijuu? Even more so in the Shinju's case, since Obito was mere seconds from using the Shinju's eye to cast Infinite Tsukuyomi. So we know it can, right?--Elveonora (talk) 12:35, June 14, 2014 (UTC)

Bump--Elveonora (talk) 13:11, June 16, 2014 (UTC)

How'd Kaguya...?
How'd Kaguya use this technique exactly? I know she was stated to have attached people to the Shinju (God Tree), but wasn't the Shinju transformed into the Juubi (Ten-Tails) at the time? Also, she wasn't the Jinchuriki of either, so how could she use the Shinju form to use the technique? Skarrj (talk) 16:55, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * What are you talking about? ...--Elveonora (talk) 17:39, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * The attaching of people is not caused by this technique. The tree was a tree at that time and she had its powers. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:51, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * OK, I see. I was under the impression that the Shinju transformed soon after to retrieve its chakra, so the fact that Kaguya could use it for the technique, while it was something that inherently disliked her seemed kind of implausible. But I guess it makes sense that there would've been time between it going from the God Tree to the vengeful Ten Tails. Skarrj (talk) 20:36, May 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * She never used it tho, just ate its fruit and cast the technique--Elveonora (talk) 21:28, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

Classification
I think sharingan KKG in classification must be replaced with rinnegan(sharinnegan) and added that justu tailed beast skill(becose oblivious without Shinju it`s impossible) Rage gtx (talk) 08:55, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm confused myself, if this is a Sharingan genjutsu, why do affected get Rinnegan eyes?--Elveonora (talk) 12:01, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Moreover tsukuyomi is a MS genjutsu how just sharingan user can able to cast it? And state it(classification) is now can be concluded that every uchiha with enough chakra can cast it. Rage gtx (talk) 12:18, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Infinite Tsukuyomi ain't Tsukuyomi tho--Elveonora (talk) 12:27, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Still does this two jutsu must have same relation as izanagi and CoAT? How more powerful jutsu(MT) can be casted with less powerful eyes(sharingan)? Rage gtx (talk) 12:36, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Obito's MS doesn't have Tsukuyomi, yet he almost cast it. Not to mention Kaguya's third eye was called a Sharingan not a Mangekyou Sharingan--Elveonora (talk) 12:46, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

Obito was casting it through tree eye(that what later appears in Madara forhead) not his MS, i presume. Maybe Rikudo did not see difference between rinnegan and sharingan(His son stated to recive his eye and that was sharingan) that can explain Susuke, Kaguya and Madara eyes issue(butstill it only my theory). But one for sure that sharingan pic must replaced with sharinnegan`s(as only eye that shown ability to cast that jutsu) just how it goes with MS for each user. Rage gtx (talk) 12:59, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya eye was never called Sharingan he just said she had Sharingan power because it has Sharingan-like abilities like Infinite Tsukuyomi and Sasukes Space-Time jutsu.She had same Rinnegan as Sasuke left eye and Madaras forehead eye. And Infinite Tsukuyomi is clearly Rinnegan jutsu victims have Rinnegan eyes. But 9 tomoe Rinnegan seems to have different abilities than regular one.--Oranjelo100 (talk) 14:21, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm done explaining this difference to people, go look it up properly. Kaguya's third eye is still a Sharingan, I don't know why people affected have the Rinnegan. I do have a possible explanation, but this isn't the place for speculation. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:22, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

Just because some people want it to be Sharingan it doesn't make it true. Sasuke has identical eye and its called Rinnegan, Kaguya eye was never called Sharingan Hogoromo just said she had Sharingan power which makes sense because 9 tomoe Rinnegan displayed Sharingan-like abilities(Infinite Tsukuyomi and Sasukes Space-Time jutsu) and Infinite Tsukuyomi is clearly Rinnegan jutsu victims have Rinnegan in eyes.--Oranjelo100 (talk) 13:32, May 22, 2014 (UTC)


 * I never was arguing about type of the eye(be it sharingan or rinnegan) but we seen in manga that only eye that can able to cast MT has 9 tomoe(in every case: Kaguya, Madara and Obito), so replace pic. And add tailed beast skill becose jutsu was about to cast through Obito tailed beast mode, Madara gained eye afeter becoming juubi jinchuuriki, and all akatsuki was after tailed beast becose without Shinju to cast jutsu imbossible period. Rage gtx (talk) 05:45, May 22, 2014 (UTC)

It is a Sharingan Jutsu because Madara used it with the Sharingan. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:40, May 22, 2014 (UTC)

Some people are stubborn as hell Madara third eye is Rinnegan so he used it with Rinnegan. Chapter 678 confirm its Rinnegan so this little edit warring can stop.
 * And you may can it. Your attitude, while cute, isn't needed so take it elsewhere. The whole point of the "edit war" was to wait for further confirmation and we have it now, though I would prefer we wait for the raw to make absolutely certain. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 05:43, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

Its confirmed its Rinnegan jutsu and now some people want to push it as Rinnegan/Sharingan jutsu which is false tell me exact chapter where Obito supposedly said its Sharingan jutsu and Madara clearly said it require Rinnegan and Moon nothing about Sharingan, Sasuke said its cast with Rinnegan nothing about Sharingan either. Even if Obito said something like that its contradicted by other characters and later events and like I said tell me chapter--Oranjelo100 (talk) 07:02, May 28, 2014 (UTC) So if its confirmed why there still Sharingan in the box and still you didn't tell which chapter prove its Sharingan jutsu.
 * Madara used it with the Sharingan, as I said above. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:27, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Although Madara's third eye has been stated to be a Rinnegan now. Kaguya's third eye is unlikely to be anything else than his, so she had a Rinnegan too. Therefore if you want to get technical, the first usage of Infinite Tsukuyomi ever was with a Rinnegan. Although, it can seemingly be cast with a Sharingan too, only if the whole Obito demonstration thing indeed was Infinite Tsukuyomi... the dialogue suggested as such, although it's kinda questionable now, isn't it?--Elveonora (talk) 12:39, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * It is, yes. But as I said somewhere else, every Rinnegan is a part of the Sharingan dōjutsu line, so whatever Kaguya's eye was called, it's still a Sharingan. We should change the icon from a three tomoe to a six or nine tomoe eye, I think. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:52, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

We must categorize Infinite Tsukuyomi as a Sharingan jutsu as well.--KiritoLevel96Alicization

More images
Maybe we should use one more image to show the actual technique in more detail, like Kaguya's weird projection on the sky or somebody with Rinnegan eyes. Norleon (talk) 12:52, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

Zetsu's weren't affected
Trivia worthy? Seeing as they have brains and have never been stated to not be affected by genjutsu. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 14:16, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * We've actually seen one be affected by Sasuke's genjutsu, so it seems this technique is an exception.--BeyondRed (talk) 14:25, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think it worth mention especially when Sasuke was able to cast genjutsu(which means this case is unique)Rage gtx (talk) 14:28, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * It could be a simple as teh fact that they simply weren't targeted. Why would he target his own henchmen?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:55, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * You overestimate the scope of Madara's power. Do you believe he can control the Infinite Tsukuyomi to a degree where he can actively avoid certain individuals? It was stated in numerous places that the Infinite Tsukuyomi targets every living thing, but if Madara had to actively control it then it would be essentially impossible to do so. Atrix471 (talk) 17:11, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * And you don't know that, so drop it. We know that they weren't affected by the Infinite Tsukuyomi. We don't know why or if they ever will, so there is no point in speculating or arguing about it here. Mention it and leave it be until (if it ever happens) its explained further. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 20:39, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

Character Status
Shouldn't everyone who is under the affects of Infinite Tsukuyumi have their status as "Incapacitated"? Steveo920, 9:04, May 22, 2014


 * While I do agree on taking that step, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of known characters out there (sorting out the deceased and still living), and we'd be including non-canon characters such as Ranmaru, Shizuka, Amaru, Hikaru Tsuki, Shion, and so many more (since they are still part of the world). And what if Team 7 breaks the genjutsu by defeating Madara/destroying the moon, as soon as next chapter? Maybe wait for the next chapter at least. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 06:12, May 25, 2014 (UTC)

I don't get it?
So if there was no moon till the sealing on the ten tails body, then how the hell did Madara know it was needed for this jutsu and how did Kaguya use it, plus all the other plot holes? Arrancar79 (talk) 03:33, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Unless Hagoromo had a crystal ball, Kaguya used it after Hagoromo made the moon? ._.--Elveonora (talk) 13:22, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Uh, chapter 671? Hagoromo said she used her dōjutsu. Whatever that means, however that works, that's how. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:44, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, I suppose people assume that since Madara got the third eye by approaching the moon, the same had to be true for Kaguya. And that surely makes sense, otherwise Hagoromo wouldn't have known that approaching the moon results in third eye, would he?--Elveonora (talk) 20:34, May 24, 2014 (UTC)

Difference with Tsukuyomi
"...the user can create an empty dimension under their control, which can be then filled with contents of his or her desire". How is this too much different with the original Tsukuyomi, which creates an illusion world where Itachi has absolute control of the victim's perception of reality? Both basically trap the victim in an illusory world that they can manipulate the contents as they please, with the duration and required chakra being the only known issues. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 07:20, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * So what I want to say is, should we compare this to the original Tsukuyomi, and make the obvious comparisons and similarities in the trivia? Yatanogarasu (Talk) 07:23, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Probably. Madara's technique is just more effective, it can trap more people and do other things. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:57, May 24, 2014 (UTC)

Itachi a User
Didn't Itachi used this to create a replay of the past during his battle against Sasuke, when he showed how Madara and Izuna acquired their Mangekyo Sharingan, and then again after incapacitating Kabuto, showing the last moments Itachi killing their parents? Yatanogarasu (Talk) 07:20, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Infinite Tsukuyomi is completely different from any Genjutsu and requires the Shinju's power. Itachi may have been a genjutsu master, but the best he could do was alter the perception of time with his Tsukuyomi, which is completely unrelated to the Infinite Tsukuyomi.--JOA20 (talk) 08:18, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * But Madara was able to perform it for Obito as a demonstration of sorts, before the Shinju was reborn. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 09:22, May 24, 2014 (UTC)

The difference is that Madara's world was a white world in his control, while Itachi showed Sasuke a movie, so to speak. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:55, May 24, 2014 (UTC)

@Yatan, The Gedo Mazo is Shinju which Madara was still connected to--Elveonora (talk) 13:20, May 24, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah I guess, Gedo being a part of the Shinju. But since Madara and Itachi created a genjutsu via a normal Sharingan, would (at least by Madara's case) Infinite Tsukuyomi be a derivative of Genjutsu: Sharingan? Yatanogarasu (Talk) 16:53, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * No.--Elveonora (talk) 17:50, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, Itachi and Madara aside, now I just wanna say Infinite Tsukuyomi's parent jutsu is Genjutsu: Sharingan, as both requires eye contact via Sharingan to utilize an illusion of the user's control. Infinite Tsukuyomi just takes it to a higher level than the basic Genjutsu: Sharingan. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 18:47, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * They are completely unrelated. Sharingan is capable of replaying memories.--Elveonora (talk) 18:56, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Kakashi used Genjutsu: Sharingan to make a false memory on two Root Anbu to allow Naruto to slip out of the village. That's not memory replaying. Similar to how Infinite Tsukuyomi, only far less powerful and short-ranged. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 19:07, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * By your logic all visual genjutsu is infinite tsukuyomi, because non-sharingan ones can do just the same--Elveonora (talk) 20:30, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, so in layman's term, Infinite Tsukuyomi creates a genjutsu of whatever the user desires for infinite periods so long as the user wants, while other genjutsu (non-Sharingan) is specific in creating one particular effect/vision. "Genjutsu: Sharingan" allows the user to create whatever illusion of whatever the user wants, but only for a brief moment/less than Infinite Tsukuyomi. Am I right? Yatanogarasu (Talk) 05:54, May 25, 2014 (UTC)

The IT is a Genjutsu which can only be used with the power of the Shinju or at least its empty shell. Unlike every other Genjutsu, it actually creates a world for the victim where it can interact with others and isn't bound by the caster's will. • Seelentau 愛 議 08:11, May 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah. The difference is that ordinary genjutsu affects an individual, while Infinite Tsukuyomi traps everyone within the same illusion. Kinda like all people sharing the same dream--Elveonora (talk) 11:04, May 25, 2014 (UTC)

It seems like the genjutsu isn't even shared by everyone, road to ninja was a fraud by Kishi T_T--Elveonora (talk) 12:44, May 28, 2014 (UTC)


 * The Limited Tsukuyomi was cast on Naruto and Sakura to send them to the same place. Madara's Infinite Tsukuyomi was more or less, cast on separately to give everyone their own dream.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:09, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

did i miss something?
hashirama mentioned that falling into the mugen tsukuyomi is the same as dying, but after seeing it firsthand i have to ask exactly what part of it is "the same as dying"?--Caseather (talk) 08:12, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's the part where you don't exist as a conscious being in this world anymore, where you're not able to interact with the world anymore and bound in an endless dream, not even knowing that you're in this dream. • Seelentau 愛 議 09:08, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

genjutsu wold of the infinite tsukuyomi
we must add information about the different genjutsu wold for different character like we have see in the last chapiter?? hinata with naruto on a date, kiba hokage gaara still a child with his family and naruto?? --Nitram86 (talk) 11:20, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

Mechanics
This might be troublesome. Ok, 678 made it clear that this is a Rinnegan genjutsu. Based on that, I believe that what old Madara showed Obito is not IT. I now believe that to be just Genjutsu: Sharingan, much like Itachi did with Sasuke when they fought, and he showed Madara's history via genjutsu. On them having similar effects, I believe that's a case jutsu homology if you can call it like that. You can use many different jutsu to make explosions, that doesn't mean they're the same for example. Thoughts? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:25, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Madara said that it's Mugen Tsukuyomi back then, didn't he? • Seelentau 愛 議 21:29, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Madara implied he was able to create the white space and manipulate it because he was connected to the Demonic Statue, so even if it isn't the same as the actual "Infinite Tsukuyomi", it isn't just regular genjutsu either. Basically, it's the canon equivalent of "Limited Tsukuyomi", except we don't have a proper name for it other than.--BeyondRed (talk) 21:36, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * No. He never did. He just said that was how the Genjutsu would work. Obito is the one who said he'd use the Sharingan to cast the IT. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:38, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * When you say Obito did that, you mean when he declared the ninja war on the Kage right? Unless I'm mistaken, he only said he'd use the moon to reflect his eye or his eye power to cast it. At the time, he only had the Sharingan, so we assumed it was a Sharingan genjutsu. About being connected to the statue, I think that's supposed to be a stand-in for the Ten-Tails. Madara didn't have the beast, and didn't have the actual eye necessary for the genjutsu (the forehead one), so he used a poor-man's version of the technique. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:08, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * I could've sworn he said he'd reflect his Sharingan on the moon, but you may be right. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 23:21, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

@Omni, still in the end, it means that what old Madara did was Infinite Tsukuyomi, just a weaker version of it. Kinda like Izanagi and Creation of all things work on the same principle. This begs the question about the infobox tho. What should it convey, chronologically original use (with Rinnegan) or the lowest requirement to cast it (Sharingan) ?--Elveonora (talk) 12:53, May 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * But does it mean he used it? For the sake of comparison, general skill listing aside, would we list Naruto as a Clone Technique (not Shadow Clone Technique) user based on the awful clones he made during his Academy exam? Sure, clones were made, but compare them to the actual ones created by the technique. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:51, May 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, the purple Rinnegan can't use genjutsu, only the red one. So technically, it still stems from the "Sharingan" part of it. Stuff getting hard for us to document lol. I think in such an unique case, the infobox should show Rinnegan (but with red 9 tomoe icon) and Sharingan too--Elveonora (talk) 20:04, May 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not exactly aware of how technically feasible it is to change the icon for just this technique, but I think that the easier way is to go Tengai Shinsei, list both Sharingan and Rinnegan. Does that mean we drop Madara telling Obito tales as IT? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:54, June 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * Nah, Madara said tales to have been IT so it's just that. Obviously it's done with the Sharingan part of Rinnegan so Sharingan can do it too--Elveonora (talk) 13:11, June 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except he doesn't. Specially now that we know that IT apparently changes people into White Zetsu, what Madara did to Obito really can't be IT. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:33, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Infinite Tsukuyomi doesn't change people into White Zetsus, being encased in the cocoon does.--Elveonora (talk) 21:54, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

Why is this a debate? It was explicitly stated that the Infinite Tsukuyomi is a genjutsu created by a Rinnegan. Not the Sharingan, or anything else. I thought we went by what the manga states. WindStar7125 (talk) 22:00, June 4, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125 @Elveonora After IT has reeled them in. Still, knowing what it is and the scope of what it does, calling what Madara did to Obito IT is like saying that Rasengan is the same as Multiple Tailed Beast Ball Rasenshuriken. @WindStar7125 Because Hagoromo said his mother used her dōjutsu, which included the "power of the Sharingan" to cast the technique. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:01, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * God: Nativity of a World of Trees reeled them in, not IT. @Windstar, Because in the very chapter of Obito flashback, Madara himself stated it to be Infinite Tsukuyomi and that he can do so thanks to being connected to Gedo Mazo, that's why--Elveonora (talk) 22:04, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except he never actually says that is IT. He says that while connected to the statue, he can make the blank world into anything he wishes. But with just a regular Sharingan, it can't be an actual IT, hence my Rasengan comparison. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:11, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

The technique...
...affects every single living being on the world equally. Thus, we would technically have to list this on every character article under a "Return of Madara Arc" section and technically, we should also list them as "incapacitated". Sounds like a hell of a ton of work, so I guess it's not gonna happen, right? Idontcareaboutmyname (talk) 22:34, May 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * Since this is just a temporary status, we won't change it. If it was only for one or two characters, it wouldn't be a problem, but the way it is, it's just too much work. • Seelentau 愛 議 22:59, May 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, poor Tora--Elveonora (talk) 13:09, June 1, 2014 (UTC)

I think Kaguya's article has got it wrong
It says she did IT to bring peace. Can anyone reference that? How is turning everyone into plant-men for an amusement an equivalent of peace?--Elveonora (talk) 16:17, June 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * The Sage said she did it to achieve peace. Or something. Her goals were peace. If she believes peace is becoming a eternal soldier then yeah. Peace achieved.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:27, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except a soldier is used for battling, so creating pawns of war doesn't really achieve piece--Elveonora (talk) 16:31, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * In whatever twisted way she perceived it, it was peace, like, beat the hell out of anyone who disrupts peace. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:17, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, it's evident her ways were warped due her huge power and her increasing hubris. I think we should mention that change of mentally on her Personality section, however probably we need to wait some chapters to see the details of her character and her real motivations. Adept-eX (talk) 19:07, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

1. Just look at Madara for instance. His view of peace was basically the exact same thing as Kaguya. Cast the IT and put everyone under it. 2. How can we change her "mentality" or personality when we don't know how she was BEFORE eating the fruit? We don't know how she was or how she thought before hand. I doubt we'll find out how she truly was either the way the manga has been jumping around. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 07:12, June 9, 2014 (UTC)

Translation
So, I know this will make me very unpopular, but I'm going to bring it up anyways. When we created the Six Paths Sage Technique article, the argument used for not naming it "Six Paths Senjutsu", which was the term actually used in the English release of the chapters, was because Seel didn't find it very appropriate to translate part of the name into English, while leaving the rest in Japanese. So... what is the logic behind doing that here? If that's our "standard" should we move this page to "Mugen Tsukuyomi" or "Infinite Moon Reader"? Don't laugh this off. Legitimate question here. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 07:19, June 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Tsukuyomi is a name, while Senjutsu is a term. We translate terms, but not names. Also, we don't translate historical stuff, as far as I know. • Seelentau 愛 議 07:44, June 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * What he said. Tsukuyomi is a deity, they don't get translated, since that would be a blasphemy. The Kanji 月読 are meant to be read together as one in this case, not separately. So instead of translating to "moon reader" it translates to Tsukuyomi, because 月 reads in Japanese as "tsuku/i" and 読 as "yomi". Same for Chidori, the correct English translation also is Chidori, not "one thousand birds"--Elveonora (talk) 10:11, June 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Na, that's not entirely correct, either. 月読 literally means Moonreading, but it stems from a deity and we don't translate words that have such a background. Chidori isn't translated because, alongside the Rasengan, it's one of the signature techniques and every reader know it under that name. If it was just a random technique used once, we'd translate it, too. • Seelentau 愛 議 14:42, June 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't say it's because of being signature. Isn't Chidori in the context of Naruto also correctly supposed to be translated as Chidori since it refers to a sword with that name rather than a bird? And names generally do not translate.--Elveonora (talk) 15:32, June 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * I gotta admit, this does bring up a good point in consistency. Yasaka Magatama by removing the "no' in between, Sword of Totsuka/Kusanagi instead of [Name] no Tsurugi. Chidori vs Lightning Cutter (instead of Raikiri), as Raikiri is actually a name for the same sword, so should become Raikiri instead of a direct English translation. So many inconsistencies, which should Mugen Tsukuyomi should follow? Yatanogarasu (Talk) 16:06, June 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * You are correct. In my opinion Lightning Cutter should be changed to Raikiri--Elveonora (talk) 16:18, June 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's exactly my point. This nonsense about Tsukuyomi being a deity has nothing to do with why it wasn't translated. We don't translate Tsukuyomi in this case, we don't translate Chidori or Rasengan (Rasengan of which, while I agree with it staying as it is, goes against the supposed "naming standards"), but we do translate Raikiri... There is clearly a breaking of standard in this cluster. The fact that "Senjutsu" is a term bears no more merit than "Rasengan" since, translation wise, the name has no significance. I just wanted to know why we only apply such standards to some articles and not all of them. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 16:30, June 7, 2014 (UTC)

I can only repeat what ShounenSuki said: We don't translate Rasengan and Chidori because they're the signature moves and known as Rasengan and Chidori, while Raikiri isn't (deemed) a signature move and is therefor translated. We don't translate Tsukuyomi because it stems from a deity's name which aren't meant to be translated, because we'd lose the mythical background. Raikiri is no such deity or mythical being, so I don't think we should handle it like one. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:44, June 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * True. For example, in the English Dub, Kakashi's technique is "Lightning Blade," but Rasengan and Chidori aren't translated to English in the Dub. Tsukuyomi as well, Itachi doesn't say "Moon Reader!" when he activates it. These techniques are known by these names in the English manga and anime, some are translated and some aren't, that's just how it is. WindStar7125 (talk) 16:51, June 7, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125

"The name Raikiri comes from a story about famous samurai Tachibana Dōsetsu (立花道雪, Tachibana Dōsetsu) (22 April 1513–2 November 1585). Tachibana was in possession of a famous sword called Chidori (千鳥; Literally meaning "A Thousand Birds"). One day, while he was still a young man, he was taking shelter under a tree, as it was raining. Suddenly, a bolt of lightning struck him. However, Tachibana used his Chidori to cut the Thunder God inside the lightning bolt, allowing him to survive. After this incident, he renamed his Chidori to Raikiri (雷切; Literally meaning "Lightning Cutter")" How isn't that a mythical background?--Elveonora (talk) 17:08, June 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * To be completely honest, and I'm trying to be respectful here, but why is ShonenSuki still a presence on this wiki even though he's lost interest and is long gone? I get it. He was a very well respected translator, not just here, but elsewhere. That being said, we can think for ourselves, and clearly see where there is a discrepancy. No need to continue beating a dead horse over a translator that is no longer with us, nor cares to be with us. His reasoning isn't exactly solid either. Edit: Furthermore, I'm not suggesting we translate "Tsukuyomi". I'm saying that, if you're going to demand that "Six Paths Sage Technique" be named so, rather than "Six Paths Senjutsu" because we'd be translating the name into half-English, half-Japanese, then the same standard needs to be applied here, and the article needs to be renamed "Mugen Tsukuyomi". ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:15, June 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * TTF has a point. However, this technique has been referred as both "Mugen Tsukuyomi" and "Infinite Tsukuyomi" in the English Manga multiple times, so what do we do? Yea, I know "Raikiri" has been used multiple times @Elve, and comes from a story, but it is more well known as "Lightning Blade." Naruto's technique is more well known as the "Rasengan," not "Spiraling Sphere." Same with "Chidori" over "A Thousand Birds." Same with "Tsukuyomi" over "Moon Reader." I think we should just go with the language/translation a technique is more recognized as. WindStar7125 (talk) 18:04, June 7, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125

I don't think we should conform ourselves to fanbase standards at all. There was this guy that wanted us to rename Big Ball Rasengan to Super Rasengan or some nonsense like that just because apparently it's more known by that term among the fans and that's an absolute nonsense. So whatever the reason for our translation should be, it shouldn't be popularity but rather consistency so if we go with the reasoning of mythological background or otherwise famous name, we should use the Japanese spelling.

But Infinite Tsukuyomi is a tough one. While the Tsukuyomi part shouldn't be translated, what about the Infinite? Should not it be Mugen so we don't use half-English/half-Japanese terms as brought up by Foxie? Although even much greater problem if we go with the "Japanese only when mythological/famous name" is the Sharingan. Because if we go with such a consistency, then it would have to be renamed into Copy Wheel Eye ._.--Elveonora (talk) 11:51, June 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * If you're gonna rename Sharingan to Copy Wheel Eye because muh consistency, I'm out. I mean, come on, guys. We've had it like this for all the time and now one or two users disagree and suddenly, everything needs to change? • Seelentau 愛 議 11:55, June 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * I hear you, but we are either completely anal about things or we pick and choose. So if Foxie wants consistency then Copy Wheel Eye it is :P It's not referred to as Sharingan in the English manga either, is it?--Elveonora (talk) 12:01, June 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * This has been some weekend huh.
 * Anyway, as a bit of clarification on how naming conventions has worked up until now because it would seem things are being misunderstood.
 * Naming Convention has always been
 * Character Name follows Western Order
 * Villages are partially untranslated (a revision of being purely untranslated, for example Konoha was Konohagakure no Sato, until we dropped the no Sato because it wasn't needed and everyone who used the site understood Konoha.)
 * Locations would be Translated. (For example, Hi no Kuni became Land of Fire.
 * Techniques are translated
 * With a few exceptions, all techniques are fully translated to their literal English translations.
 * Jutsu categories are left untranslated, this was again done because most would understand the untranslated phrase just fine. So instead of having "Ninja Techniques" we just use Ninjutsu. Since then new things have been added such as Senjutsu, Fuinjutsu, and the like, which as categories would fall under this umbrella.
 * For example, Kage Bunshin no Jutsu becomes Shadow Clone Technique. This was done because of the various translations that this technique had, such as Art of the Shadow Doppelganger, and Art of Shadow Body Splitting.
 * Kekkei Genkai, in an effort to exemplify their importance, are left untranslated. Sharingan remains Sharingan instead of becoming Copy Wheel Eye. Amaterasu is Amaterasu instead of Heavenly Illumination.
 * The exception to this are the elemental transformations. Nature Transformations, to fit with the naming structure of other techniques are also literally translated. For example Hyōton is translated into Ice Release to fit consistently with other techniques.
 * Being the two most well known techniques at the time, Chidori and Rasengan and their derived techniques were left untranslated, again as a sort of prestige. This held until Kishimoto started making things like Rasentairengan, where it was slightly modified so only the "Rasengan" and "Chidori" are left untranslated.
 * There are some inconsistencies, (Mount Myōboku should be Mysterious/Exquisite Tree Mountain, the above instance of using Six Paths Sage Transformation instead of Senjutsu), but that is the translation in a nutshell.
 * In terms of this technique, because Tsukuyomi is a Kekkei Genkai technique, that would remain untranslated, while the word Infinite be used instead of "Mugen", similar to how Transcription Seal: Amaterasu is named such.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:54, June 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * Also, now that I've been made aware, yes Yasaka Magatama should be Yasaka no Magatama due to being a kekkei genkai tech.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:24, June 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh and I forgot, proper names for objects would be left untranslated, the Sword of Totsuka, the "Totsuka" being the proper name, is left as is, instead of becoming "Ten Hands". The Seven Swordsmen's swords are all left untranslated because those are their proper names.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:28, June 8, 2014 (UTC)

Agree with most of what you said, but you lost me at the Amaterasu. Amaterasu isn't Amaterasu because it's a kekkei genkai, that's because of the whole deity/cultural significance thing. We have quite some kekkei genkai techniques that aren't translated. There are two Sharingan "Demonic Illusion" genjutsu, as well as all of Shikotsumyaku techniques. Every Gentle Fist technique, which require Byakugan. Sakon and Ukon's merging techniques. Yasaka Magatama, despite the look, is a translated technique, it simply happens that "magatama" is an actual thing, a type of jewel. I brought the topic of how that technique should be translated when it first showed, it still in that talk page. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:33, June 8, 2014 (UTC)


 * Really? Well then I stand corrected.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 21:37, June 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * The topic in question is this. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:40, June 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * Edit: I see that TheUltimate actually answered my question. No further complaints. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:55, June 9, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, how about this: we use either PURE translation (Ice Release, Blaze Release, etc.) or PURE Japanese (Mugen Tsukuyomi, Yasaka no Magatama, etc.)? I mean, Yasaka Magatama is just... really? You just take out the "no", what on Earth? Why not at least say Yasaka Beads? This is really... yeah. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 05:44, June 9, 2014 (UTC)

"white zetsu ain't affected"
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/masonry/000/322/779/473.jpg Orochimaru would like to have a talk with ya. Guruguru seemingly doesn't have a brain, there's nothing to affect, he is unique. Ordinary White Zetsu have eyes, so logic would have it that so must they have a brain too.--Elveonora (talk) 13:54, June 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * How can something they're already under affect then again? It's like casing genjutsu on someone already under genjutsu...--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:06, June 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Read again _^--Elveonora (talk) 14:24, June 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Long story short, Orochimaru is inside of White Zetsu and he got caught, therefore WZ aren't immune. Guruguru and Black Zetsu most likely weren't caught because they lack brain or purposely weren't targeted--Elveonora (talk) 14:29, June 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Technically, we don't know if Guruguru doesn't have a brain. Or any of the Zetsu for that matter, just because they don't have skulls don't mean through some ninja magic their brains aren't in their structure somewhere.
 * Also technically, Orochimaru may be using a Black Zetsu as a new body, but he isn't a White Zetsu. So even if White Zetsu were immune to the Infinite Tsukuyomi, that doesn't mean Orochimaru would be as well.
 * And finally, I believe I pointed out that Madara probably not aiming for the things that were already under his control anyway, so shrug.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:53, June 15, 2014 (UTC)

Sharingan/Rinnegan Technique
It seems to me that this technique requires the combined power of the Sharingan and Rinnegan, similar to Tengai Shinsei. Kaguya and Madara each used this technique through their forehead eye, which held the traits of both dōjutsu. Similarly, Obito attempted to perform this technique with the Rinnegan in his left eye and Sharingan in his right eye.—Steveo920(Talk) 18:52, July 17, 2014
 * Was called Rinnegan tech tho, that's what we go with.--Elveonora (talk) 23:22, July 31, 2014 (UTC)

Where was it specifically called a Rinnegan technique? Also, I admit that the Rinnegan is the basis of the technique, but let's not forget that Hagoromo's Rinnegan and Madara's main Rinnegan were never stated to have genjutsu abilities. Madara had to do it with his red Rinnegan. Hagoromo specifically said Kaguya had the power of the Sharingan and used its abilities to perform Infinite Tsukuyomi.—(Talk) 21:29, July 17, 2014


 * Nope, Obito needed the eye of the tree to cast. Arrancar79 (talk) 02:02, August 1, 2014 (UTC)

The Shinju's eye was a tomoe Rinnegan like Kaguya and Madara's third eye.—Steveo920(Talk) 22:26, July 17, 2014

Red Rinnegan is still Rinnegan, so not sure what your point is. Also Sasuke's Rinnegan despite not being red, but having tomoe can counter and undo Infinite Tsukuyomi, so yeah, it's a Rinnegan tech--Elveonora (talk) 12:53, August 1, 2014 (UTC)

Also, Obito didn't keep his sharingan to aid him in the using the Infinite Tsukuyomi as was suggested above. He kept it as he using both Rinnegan would have drained him of his chakra. He stated that quite recently I believe.--Soul reaper (talk) 13:20, August 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * It can be used with 3T Sharingan. Madara did so on Obito, I believe. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:41, August 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * While being connected to the Ten-Tails' body I believe.--Elveonora (talk) 13:55, August 1, 2014 (UTC)

Shinju
I already asked this, but it got mostly ignored. Should the Shinju be considered a user, even though it's just a tool in the process?--Elveonora (talk) 21:40, August 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * Could the original tree use this? No? There you have your answer. I don't consider the replica in the war a real Shinju. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:42, August 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, it was called as such. And Kakashi originally couldn't use Sharingan either if that's a valid comparison.--Elveonora (talk) 21:48, August 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * The tree in the war was more a tree form of the TT. The original tree didn't have the TB chakra, hm? And no, that's not a valid comparison, lol. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:51, August 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think that's right, I already brought that up somewhere. The assumption that the tree was Ten-Tails' final form is most likely wrong, since:


 * its chronologically first appearances were of a monster
 * Gyuki wasn't even around to observe the Ten-Tails/Shinju

Also it was again and again called "holy tree". Even Hashirama said God: Root Orgy Jutsu victims are connected to Shinju, not the Ten-Tails--Elveonora (talk) 21:55, August 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think it should be. People created and used jutsu. I don't think the original Shinju had an eye in its leaves. Apart from that, I assume that tailed beasts carry cognizance before the point of being created. They're just chakra after all.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 22:00, August 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * If that were true, then Kurama would have known that the Ten-Tails isn't an angry tree but angry Kaguya, not even Hagoromo knew that.--Elveonora (talk) 22:02, August 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think you misunderstood, Elve. I mean that the tree in the war is, just like the rabbit, a form the TT can assume, based on the user (or so). The original tree had nothing to do with the TB chakra and those, it was just a tree. No eye, no special powers, nothing. • Seelentau 愛 議 22:10, August 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wow, @Tau. I feel the same way about the replica Obito summoned. It was more of the Ten-Tails in the likeness of the Shinju IMO. The original Shinju didn't have the Rinnegan. -- WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contribs) 22:22, August 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * More like Shinju in the likeness of the Ten-Tails.--Elveonora (talk) 11:56, September 1, 2014 (UTC)