Talk:Nature Transformation

Lightning icon colour
I was updating the icons I made for the elements and a question came to mind; should I change the colour of the lightning icon from purple to yellow? --ShounenSuki (talk 17:08, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Now that you mention, there is a lack of yellow, but I'd wait until a few more people voiced their opinions. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:14, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think a yellow-gold lightning icon would look really good and tie in more to the other color icons (red fire, blue water, brown earth, yellow lightning), but would you also change the wind icon to a lighter white shade too? --Dragon Hacker (talk) 17:40, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * P.S. I liked the original star shaped advanced nature chart (above) so much better than the choppy square chart which it was changed to. It was so much easier to read the combinations of advanced natures in the star chart and it tied in with the circular chart we already had; plus it showed the MOST LIKELY advanced nature combinations which were not confirmed yet to fill in the chart, all it needed was for the arrows to be cleaned up and more curved to match with the circular chart--Dragon Hacker (talk) 17:40, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * That one was removed because it wasn't as good quality as the svg icons. The table is something I tried so we'd have some image showing what produces what when mixed, my original idea was to make something like the star chart. I left a message in the edit summary saying it needs tweaking to better fit in the page, my coding skills are rather limited. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:45, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * ShounenSuki, I love your icons, they are the coolest! I actually go to your user page and look at your icons quite a bit. Maybe you should make the new lightning icon a dandelion-yellow. I also think that the dust nature should change colour, because the colour is a little close to the earth nature's icon. Otherwise, i love them all!--NejiByakugan360 17:51, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure changing the color for Dust would help, it's different enough from Earth. Earth is a chocolate brown, Dust is closer to beige, coffee tone. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:57, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry! I wasn't trying to bash your chart, but I was just trying to state my preference. But ya, I do think that the star chart flows more with the theme. Also as another note (sorry, lol, can't help myself) we have so many red advanced nature icons (Fire, Lava, Blaze, anything fire related, Boil) should we change some to other colors too, like Lava being orange'ier or Boil being purple'ier? I'll try to stop now... --Dragon Hacker (talk) 18:02, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, there was one thing in the star chart that I liked: because of the circular form in which the basic elements were layed out, there were no repetitions of advanced elements. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:09, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Here, I couldn't resist myself so I made some of these changes to the images, here they are:


 * Why would you make Boil Release purple?


 * Any way, I feel the colours are fine as they are right now, so I'm not really planning on changing them unless there's a strong call for change from the community. I only asked about Lightning Release because the colour image in chapter 457 gave the lightning behind the Raikage a yellow colour. For the rest, I believe the colours fir the natures perfectly fine and I feel they are clear and distinct enough to serve their purpose. I like them as they are. --ShounenSuki (talk 20:18, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, I was just changing the colors slightly based what I heard on this page and others about peoples preferences. Oh, and I changed the Boil to purple because I felt there were many red natures. I was just seeing what people thought about the icons, so no problem. --Dragon Hacker (talk) 20:40, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I like those new icons. I think you should change the lightning and such to them.

Do we even NEED the Advanced Nature chart?
I mean seriously. The ShounenSuki created one of the thing we saw in the series I get, but do we need the advanced one? Cause first that random chart looks kinda funky, then we have no real proof if any of that holds up beyond assuming the advanced nature shares the same weaknesses/strengths as their originals.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 17:58, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * If you're talking about the one I made, it's not supposed to show who's stronger than who, but which element a specific blend will produce. Wanna know what Water and Fire make? See where the line and column meet and you have Boil. That's what I wanted to put in the page. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:02, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm talking about in general. It looks like that section is getting overly confusing for no reason. I mean, do we honestly need a picture diagram pointing that out, when its already mentioned clearly in it's bullet point and article?TheUltimate3 (talk) 18:04, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * We have one for the relationships between basic elements, I think a more visual approach could be helpful. The main issue is to find a way to make a less intrusive explanation. If the star chart could be made into a svg image, and have the speculative portions of it removed, it would be great. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:09, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the reason we should make an advanced nature chart using the same method as the basic natures chart is quite simple, to replace the basic nature chart since the advance nature chart will have the basic included in it. Simant (talk) 19:07, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

Idea!
Why cant we just do something like this, instead of having a huge table? The Ice (氷, Kōri) nature, used by Haku, is created by simultaneously combining the Water and Wind natures. This nature allows for the use of Ice Release (氷遁, Hyōton) ninjutsu. Ice Release has been shown as being strong against Fire Release. Yukigakure-nin and Renga were also able to use Ice Release techniques without the kekkei genkai, by drawing on already-existing ice and cold. +=
 * I don't oppose that idea. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:04, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * eh... kinda dislike both ideas. I mean the entire point of the advanced nature chart was to replace the basic nature chart image. Simant (talk) 23:07, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

That looks good, i think the original advance nature chart should be put up now (the star one) in won't be confusing because of the equations to clear things up. That way relationships can be viewed and it may contribute to a strength/weakness system that could occur later on --Flaremmm (talk) 02:10, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * For one I find it amazing how users pop out of nowhere and comment just to say they agree with another edit. But whatever. first of all, the images are included wrong on the page. secondly, what is the point of writing something like "The letter A Plus the letter B equals AB" and then writing next to it, "A+B=AB". Seems kinda redundant to me. Simant (talk) 02:15, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know what you're talking but AB = A X B not A + B. And I didn't just say I liked the edit, if you bothered to read my first post and FYI i have been watching this page for ages and this is the first time i am satisfied with the implemented system.--Flaremmm (talk) 02:19, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not referring to math. I am referring to ObjectA + ObjectB = NewObjectAB. And thanks for saying how bad a job we were doing before if this is the first time you were satisfied. Simant (talk) 02:53, October 17, 2009 (UTC)

I just didn't like the new chart and the old one was hard to make out--Flaremmm (talk) 03:48, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the equation solution currently in the article adds absolutely nothing. At least the table allowed people to quickly look up what advanced elements used, for instance, Earth Release. --ShounenSuki (talk 12:18, October 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * I still don't see why we don't assume our readers can read and just not have any of this >.> it's been going on for like 2 weeks and so far the page just went from ok, to bad, to worse, to lolbad.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 12:38, October 17, 2009 (UTC)

Movie natures
The third Shippuden movie natures are certainly going to stir things up. Do we make a seperate section for them, or do we simply list them along the manga ones and Crystal? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:23, October 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * Why ? Natures are not necessarily doing by mixing, such as sand (Gaara), paper (Konan) or the iron sand (Sasori with Third Kazekage puppets) and the other did not was not determined like the shadow (Nara Clan) or Enton. Itachou (talk) 17:27, October 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * Every -ton technique is an element, apart from Enton, those aren't advanced nature. Sand is a bijuu derived ability, Konan developed her own jutsu, most likely a hijutsu, Nara clan shadow techniques are also hijutsu, Iron Sand is a kekkei genkai, but has never been called an advanced nature, only speculated as being one. Still no idea on what Blaze Release is, but it's either fire and lightning (which I find unlikely), or it's the first of a class of advanced natures that are uber powerful forms of the basic elements. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:34, October 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * There are new elements? I didn't notice that... --ShounenSuki (talk 21:51, October 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * 2 Problems I Have: Swift Release, and Dust Release are both called Jinton some body please fix or change this also WHY ARE THERE 3 NEW Elemental Releases I mean Swift, Dark, Metal? Only the Latter sounds like an element this is to hard to follow anymore.--Nintendo-Fan (talk) 01:53, October 18, 2009 (UTC)Nintendo-Fan

Swift Release might be Lightning related, as in or. Not sure about Dark Release, but carries additional connotations of "darkness", such as the unseen and divine, or the darkness of a grave or of the underworld. It could potentially be related to yin/yang transformation, as well. There could also be the possibility of elements produced by combining three elements simultaneously. FF-Suzaku (talk) 02:28, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * I've got a question since I haven't seen the movie, how do you know how is called the element if in the swift and steel release says there's no named jutsu of them?Happy Milk xD (talk) 03:08, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * I have a question as well: How certain are we that these are actually new elements? Judging by their articles, Swift Release is nothing more than the Body Flicker Technique and Steel Release nothing more than Earth Release: Earth Spear. Dark Release sounds like the Chakra Absorption Technique and the film's Storm Release sounds like a Lightning Release combined with the Chakra Absorption Technique. Are we sure they are actually said to be elements in the film? We've seen all of these abilities before without it being special elements. --ShounenSuki (talk 14:36, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * Only reason I see them as advanced natures is because of their "-ton" names. When I first learned about Hiruko and his Chimera technique and stealing of kekkei genkai, the first thing it came to my mind was kekkei genkai that were body enhancements, kinda like Shikotsumyaku. Ask FF-Suzaku, he's the one who added the info. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:43, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * Just another thing, not all jutsus with "-ton" in their names are advanced natures: Shirōikiton .Happy Milk xD (talk) 15:26, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * That one is a bit obvious, but that's also a video game jutsu. I know these are movie jutsu, but from what was added about them, they could be natures. They certainly fall under what we've seem regarding advanced natures and kekkei genkai, Four-Tail's Lava Release notwithstanding. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:48, October 18, 2009 (UTC)