Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-5273810-20150721161252/@comment-5273810-20150813165949

Minato 87 wrote: BlueLantern1995 wrote: As far as I'm concerned in Part 1 he was one of the weakest Jonin named, in the Village Hidden in the Leaves. Hahaha..., that means one of the weakest jonins is stronger than Zabuza. Ebisu, Genma, Kurenai, Asuma... can't think about Kakashi's power. Kakashi in P1 is one of strongest Konoha's jonins ever and Gaara is nothing for ninjas like Kakashi. P2 Kakashi with Kamui is certainly stronger than P2 Gaara. Kakashi will win against Gaara easily, but if Gaara transformed into Incomplete Shukaku, Kakashi would win in mid difficult fight. Do you really think that boy who has only Shadow Clones and Gamabunta can defeat Kakashi, and Gaara in his Incomplete form is weaker than that boy, if you think he can do this, then why Kakashi is Naruto's teacher. No one Genin in P1 can beat Kakashi. @BakumatsuWarrior P1 Guy isn't stronger than P1 Kakashi, because in P1 we didn't see Guy use Eight Gates technique. P2 Guy is much stronger than P2 Kakashi with Susanoo and Double Mangekyou. Only jonins who can defeat P1 Kakashi are P2 Guy, Minato jonin, Sakumo Hatake, Jiraiya. First, I was talking Part 1 Kakashi not Part 2 or DMS so discount those. Another thing is Zabuza isn't exactly that powerful, yes he is good at stealth but he is no where near that great. As far as I'm concerned the Zabuza and Kakashi fight was between the lower ends of the Mist and Leaf Villages. Another thing and this is undisputable, I said without help. Kakashi would have died if not for Naruto and Sauske thus that fight doesn't count. Thus the only times he actually beat Zabuza was on the Naruto Bridge and in Part 2. On the Naruto Bridge can be argued to be disqualified because both were wounded but since they were both at similar levels of injury, I will count it at least in my opinion. So the only time Kakashi actually beat Zabuza without any help or either of them injured(which depending on the way you look at it can be counted or not counted) is Part 2 when Zabuza was Edo Tensei, which has been proven to weaken the shinobi's overall power in turn for limitless chakra.

Secondly, Ebisu and Genma are Tobektsu Jonin and not regular Jonin so they don't count. Kurenai can give Kakashi some trouble in my opinion though she is the Jonin that came to mind that would lose to Kakashi. Asuma could beat Kakashi this is something I am willing to debate.

Third, just because Naruto won against Gaara doesn't mean he is stronger. There is a difference, the situation does effect the battle. If it was just Naruto he would have lost that fight very easily. However with Gamabunta(who keep in mind was strong enough to pin down the complete 9 tails for a few seconds) he stood a chance of winning against someone like Kakashi. Gamabunta gave the 1 tails a run for his money in the fight he carried the fight not Naruto you can at best give Naruto credit for assisting Gamabunta with the win. Kakashi has no techs in Part 1 to be able to take down Shukaku. The only way Kakashi could possibly win against Shukaku is with Kamui even then (unless he was War Arc) he probably loses. No way can Kakashi beat Shukaku in Part 1.

I will give Kakashi credit where credit is due. He is knowledgeable in how transformations and chakra work. However Genma, Asuma, Kurenai, Might Guy, and virtually every other Tobetksu Jonin and Jonin can teach those things as well, though Kakashi does have more overall knowledge than those I mentioned as he is at least passable in most areas.

As I said Part 2 Kakashi wasn't the one I was talking about. I was talking about Part 1, and when we compare him to every Jonin named in Konoha he falls flat only beating Kurenai for certain.

Onto your reply to BakumatsuWarrior. First of all not seen does not equal not known. It is heavily implied Guy knows at least up to Gates 6 or 7 as he is considered to be in a different league than Rock Lee. At Gate 6 never mind Gate 7 he trashes Kakashi on a level of humiliation similar to Madara whooping the 5 Kages a$$ses. Secondly if we want to judge by performance, only one person in Part 1 outside of Jiraiya and The Third Hokage could actually fight Itachi and stand a fighting chance and that is Guy who saved Kakashi, Asuma, and Kurenai's a$$ses like it was nothing.

Funny enough I don't think Part 2 Might Guy would beat DMS Kakashi. If Guy would land a hit he would win but the problem is I don't see that happening.

Onto your list, wow you think a lot of Kakashi to bad I don't see evidence to support it. As Kakashi has the worst combat record of everyone in the entire series(even including Part 2) I don't see how he even comes close to the hype. With only 2 wins(both against the same person) that is a pretty sad record.

As far as I'm concerned Kage levels=Beating the 1 tails one on one in a straight fight(which is a pretty low standard). In Part 1 I just don't see Kakashi doing that, is he an elite Jonin? Yes, but so is Asuma. Sorry Kakashi, but you really have a sucky combat record. Why couldn't you be a prodigy like you were when you were a kid. You were cool, bad a$$ even. Now we debate how many you would lose too.