Talk:Blaze Release

QUESTIONS REGARDING TOPICS ALREADY IN THE TALK PAGE OR ITS ARCHIVES WILL BE REMOVED, ALONG WITH THE REPLIES TO IT

Debut?
So if it's part of Enton that he can put out the flames, wouldn't the debut be the chapter he actually put them out? Seelentau 愛議 21:26, February 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * I've seen people argue about Itachi having extinguished the flames as well, I don't recall.--Elveonora (talk) 21:48, February 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * What chapter? Seelentau 愛議 22:09, February 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Chapter 390 page 6--Elveonora (talk) 22:25, February 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * He stopped casting it, yes. He did not put it out, though. Seelentau 愛議 22:34, February 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * He didn't want to kill Sasuke and was pretending he wanted his eyes. So you mean to tell me the flame ceased to burn by itself?--Elveonora (talk) 12:41, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes. It burns everything it needs to, and if that's done, it stops, hm? Seelentau 愛議 12:56, February 3, 2014 (UTC)

So what you imply is that the technique's flame burns and is hot only while the user focuses his sight on a target? That kinda contradicts it burning the forests and if that were true, Sasuke would have had to just close his eyes in order to save Karin. Not to mention it would leave Zetsu's statement irrelevant if Itachi didn't do anything--Elveonora (talk) 13:00, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes... in that case, putting out the flames isn't part of Enton. Seelentau 愛議 11:21, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

That's what I'm getting at, Amaterasu article even states Itachi could put out the flames, yet this article accredits it to blaze release thing--Elveonora (talk) 12:10, February 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Unless things were changed, eons ago, the ability to put out the flames was not one attributed to Blaze Release, but a power of mastery of Amaterasu. The ability to manipulate the flames (read: Have it move in one direction, then suddenly turn to another, make stuff out of it, ect) was attributed to Blaze Release. Before Sasuke started doing stuff to it, Amaterasu could be cast but then it just kind of did it's own thing. Sasuke then decided to use Plot no Jutsu and made it do other stuff besides burn everything to the ground.
 * What did that little history lesson mean? It means that Itachi putting out the fire was not Blaze Release, just him exerting his mastery. Sasuke deciding to make spikes was using Blaze Release and that was the debut.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:38, February 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * The thing is, the article claims: "This nature also allows the user to extinguish these flames" ._. --Elveonora (talk) 17:49, February 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * /shrug Guess it shouldn't?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:00, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

While I agree that the ability to extinguish the flames should not be in this article, it wasn't explicitly pointed out that Itachi did the same to Sasuke's Orochimaru-style Replacement Technique. I believe Zetsu stated that Itachi stopped using Amaterasu, and was proceeding to go for Sasuke's eyes, not that he was stopping the flames for the sake of protecting those eyes. Due to the abilities Sasuke inherited from Orochimaru, the Replacement Technique could have been partitioned in such a manner that the flames would not consume the upper torso that Sasuke used as bait. And as Itachi had no real intention of taking Sasuke's life, or eyes, it's extremely doubtful that he would have willingly nailed Sasuke with Amaterasu unless he was aware of that Replacement Technique.

I'm of the opinion that Kagutsuchi is the only definite example of exerting that degree of control over Amaterasu's flames, and is the ocular power—the "new power"—that Sasuke discovered in Chapter 415. Many surmised that Itachi did so not only due to the circumstances of the Replacement Technique, but the translations that were made available to us at the time also insinuated as much. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 01:49, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

Jutsu? Really?
I'm sorry, but isn't it more speculative to call Blaze Release just a jutsu instead of chakra nature? Yes, there's stuff with it that doesn't add up either way, but considering all the information baggage we have on how stuff is named in Naruto, calling it a chakra nature requires fewer assumptions and logic tinkering than calling it a jutsu. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:26, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wait, when did it stop being a nature?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 00:32, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * I was under the impression that it was discussed, eons ago, that if something ended up with "X Release" and led to techniques with "X Release: Y" it was a nature until Kishimoto decided to say otherwise. When the hell did that change?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 00:35, February 3, 2014 (UTC)

While I understand why some of you might be against my latest edits to this article, I think they were valid. This article is - as it is now - full of speculation about Enton and even while I agree with all of it, it's against how a Wiki should work if we leave those speculations in the article.

Enton was never called an advanced nature. Its ending is the only thing that suggests that it's an advanced chakra nature. Everything else speaks against it being a nature: There is no new nature created, it's cast through the eyes and there's only one nature involved (as far as we know). It's against what Kakashi described as a nature based Kekkei Genkai.

Also, if we apply the "X ton = nature" principle to everything, then wouldn't this be a nature, too? Seelentau 愛議 08:51, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think there are more examples of nature-like techniques like Toad Oil Bullet--Elveonora (talk) 12:58, February 3, 2014 (UTC)

But on actual topic, sorry to disappoint you Seel, but:
 * it's an application of Amaterasu
 * Amaterasu is Fire Release
 * therefore still a nature, advanced or not
 * meaning it should still be classified as Fire Release in the least--Elveonora (talk) 13:49, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, Enton is used through Fire Release, but it was never stated that it's a new nature. Amaterasu isn't a new nature and Enton is Amaterasu + Keitaihenka. By the manga's explanation, Enton is no new nature (or a new Kekkei Genkai, for that matter). Seelentau 愛議 13:52, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * True, we shouldn't suggest it's an advanced nature in case it hasn't been stated which I don't recall if it was. But I think you removed too much stuff, like the Tobirama statement for example which in fact lays evidence onto your proposition that it indeed may not be an advanced nature considering an instance of past possible user/s.

For example, the time-altering aspect of Tsukuyomi isn't mandatory, it can be used without it, so who is to say that every Amaterasu user can't learn "blaze release" which may simply be an optional trick to it?--Elveonora (talk) 14:06, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * I removed that, because he didn't say Enton, but Kagutsuchi. I guess that's just nitpicking, though. And I never said that no one else could possibly use Enton. Seelentau 愛議 14:42, February 3, 2014 (UTC)

Also unless I'm missing something, another thing worthy of note is how come is this a doujutsu since we saw Sasuke use it with his hands? 0_o Kinda not following Kishi's logic--Elveonora (talk) 14:44, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Aamaterasu is a Dōjutsu. Seelentau 愛議 15:20, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * But so is Blaze Release, isn't it? What about C's comment? But he can do it with hands too so that's confusing to me--Elveonora (talk) 15:43, February 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * We don't know what exactly Blaze Release is, but it's a Dōjutsu because of Amaterasu. Sasuke can't do it with his hands, he just focuses it on his hands. Seelentau 愛議 17:09, February 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * Think of it the same way Obito can use Kamui to nigh-instantly transport his victims to the other dimensional space by making physical contact with them. Using Kagutsuchi in conjunction with Amaterasu allows the flames to be conjured up and wielded in that manner. At least, that's how I see it.


 * By the way: Still wishing you guys would just identify it as the way Sasuke dubs Amaterasu's flames. What other examples do we have of a Nature Release being distinguished by the manner in which Shape Transformation is applied? Nature Release has always been synonymous with Nature Transformation... Blargh. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 17:24, February 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * Blaze Release being a dojutsu was never in question, it manipulates Amaterasu, so that was a given. The issue was it wasn't a chakra nature. Which the name "Blaze Release", its application "Blaze Release: WhateverDaFudgeIWantBecauseI'mSasukeUchiha". The fact that we don't know what makes it doesn't change it fits with the other things we do know about Nature transformations.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 23:37, February 3, 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but when you say "advanced chakra nature", do you mean kekkei genkei? Iowndisciti (talk) 00:07, February 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Technically, yes. As one cannot have an advanced chakra nature without a kekkei genkai.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 02:41, February 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes, Blaze Release is a dojutsu. The fact that we don't know what it is means that we don't add something like "is an advanced chakra nature". Simple as that. So how was my edit wrong? I removed everything that wasn't stated in the manga and left a trivia about the "release" and how it's unclear if it's a chakra nature. Seelentau 愛議 09:21, February 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * This is going to become a circle argument and one we've had plenty of times before. Anyone want to guess my next line? I'm certain you've all seen it by now.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:31, February 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, you could try to counter my arguments for a change? I countered your "release = nature" argument with "Tonton Jutsu isn't a nature, either" and even added a trivia about that suffix. What else don't you agree with? Seelentau 愛議 13:03, February 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Oh I most certainly can. And I have. Plenty of times before this one. But that merely delays the inevitable. Before I continue any further I'm hoping someone takes note of how this will most in all probability end up going.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:13, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, you will go on like "I am an admin and have power over you" and "since I disagree with you the discussion ends here and now." Right?Iloveinoxxx (talk) 13:19, February 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Close, but no. Think the last time this happened was a bit before your time. Ten Points to Ravenclaw for effort however.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:25, February 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Hufflepuff-senior. Mind to enlighten us mortals with your divine judgment?Idontcareaboutmyname (talk) 13:31, February 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Slytherin actually. (Green and Silver for Life!) but considering how you asked so very nicely.
 * 1) Seelentau brought up a counter to my first statement "release = nature" with "Tonton".
 * 2) I would have then countered with Tonton being a character's name. I would have also countered with past evidence in series have shown that when a technique went from "X Release: Y (Technique)", the first part was the nature.
 * 3) Seelentau could then counter with we have no proof it is a nature though, and to that he is not wrong.
 * 4) I would have countered, while we don't have proof that it is a nature, we also do not have proof that it is not one. I would have then used my previous statement again to point out that it follows the same written format as every other nature, and considering how it is not Fire, Wind, Earth, or Water, the logical conclusion is that it would be an advanced nature.
 * 5) Which rightfully should be countered with "We don't know that, so we shouldn't make assumptions."
 * 6) To which I would respond "That's the problem we keep having and why this crap happens every other month, we have enough information to make a conclusion on our own we just don't and sit with our thumbs up our asses."
 * 7) Then from here on out, it will be me vs anyone whom I've ever offended, leaving the conversation at hand to be ignored or resolved with no "end" to the overarching issue that leads to this thing in the first place.
 * That is basically how this conversation will continue. As it happened the last dozen times we had it.
 * Also, 50 points from Ravenclaw for making fun of Hufflepuff. Don't hate because they go hard.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:44, February 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * This is relevant. People go here.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:20, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

Just cut it out, all you guys are doing at this point is arguing. Grow up! It's not needed here, if you wanna argue do it on your own time don't waist space on this wikia for it. Munchvtec 16:35, February 4, 2014 (UTC)munchvtec


 * And I'm certain you have a full grasp at the actual scope of this "arguments". -_- If you did, you would know it is very needed which is why I seriously want people to go here.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:37, February 4, 2014 (UTC)

In my dearest opinion, I think this shouldn't be counted as a Kekkei Genkai. Though as I stated, it's just a opinion.

Now....Fall Under my Ultimate Genjutsu (talk) 20:56, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

How does this even work?
How can Sasuke cast flames on the whole ribcage of Susanoo when he can't even see the whole thing? How can he cast it in Susanoo's hand as a black orb while he's blindfolded? And does he really always cast Amaterasu first and only then uses form manipulation? Seelentau 愛議 23:56, March 21, 2014 (UTC)


 * How does Madara cast a eye technique without eyes? Seriously the laws of physics in the Naruto universe bend to the will of the Uchiha.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 00:11, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

I assume the flames spread around the ribcage after it's been ignited. As for the orb, I once again assume it's just a physical manifestation of his ability to use Blaze Release, much like the gourd from which Itachi's Tosuka Sword appears. I mean it's clearly not an actual, physical gourd and a giant sword made of energy doesn't actually need a sheath, but in order to understand it in a visual media, we're given these little things to help ease the transition a little. Really the only big one I wonder is the Eye Technique with no Eyes thing...--Hawkeye2701 (talk) 00:35, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

I see your point with this one Seel. Seemingly, this ain't a doujutsu, yet we were told it is at first. Same for Susanoo ^_ Sasuke can use Blaze Release no differently than his Chidori it seems.... create and hold it in hand without even looking and so on...--Elveonora (talk) 14:25, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * A buddy over at the German wiki described Enton as Sasuke's right eye's ability. While he can use Amaterasu as a long-range Ninjutsu with his left eye, he can use Enton with his right eye. It allows him to cast Amaterasu as form-manipulated flames, even at places he isn't looking at (based on the ribcage-thing). It would also be stupid if he had to cast Amaterasu before he used form-manipulation on the flames all the times, hm? I think we should probably re-write the article to reflect this. Seelentau 愛議 14:34, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

was it only our own assumption?
This is related to Seel's topic above, but deserves its own. I must ask everyone...

Were we actually ever told that Sasuke controlling Amaterasu with the other eye its cast with equals Blaze Release, or did we just somehow assign ourselves C's explanation of the armor of black flames around Susanoo phenomenon with Sasuke's sudden statements about Blaze Release? ;--)

I think we just assumed wrong... Amaterasu: Flame Wrapping Fire was NEVER Blaze Release to begin with, but rather just advanced control of the flames, but something even Itachi in theory could learn/do. How did I come to the conclusion? Well:


 * Blaze Release doesn't even require the eyes. Sasuke can:
 * 1) cast it without even first looking at his hand which holds it
 * 2) his eyes don't bleed when using Blaze Release, yet they do while using Amaterasu, figure

Short topic short, Blaze Release indeed is an advanced nature, but isn't what Sasuke did back at the summit and C was explaining about. Also Blaze Release isn't a doujutsu.--Elveonora (talk) 14:45, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually, we were never told what Blaze Release is, but from reading the manga, we can conclude that it has to do with Amaterasu. That's the only thing we can say for sure. Seelentau 愛議 15:06, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes. Just saying the whole Amaterasu Susanoo Armor thing was never stated to be Blaze Release and we just merged C's explanation of it with our limited understanding of Blaze Release ^_ Therefore I propose: Blaze Release =/= left/right eye control combo thingy at all.--Elveonora (talk) 15:09, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then what is Enton? Seelentau 愛議 15:22, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

enton is blaze release read the article plsIloveinoxxx (talk) 15:26, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Don't troll, it isn't helping anyone. Seelentau 愛議 15:36, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

I dont troll you just want to see porblems where no are atIloveinoxxx (talk) 16:30, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, sure. Seelentau 愛議 16:37, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry but, does that mean that Enton isn't an advanced Katon and the Amaterasu does only control the shape/quantity of the black flames?! I don't recall that part. — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 16:42, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, since it's related to Amaterasu, it's Fire + something, but isn't a doujutsu, that's all we know. @Shak, Enton was never just an advanced Katon. Most of us are certain that it's an advanced nature (save for Seel who wasn't in agreement once and may or may not agree now) What I'm saying is that what we thought to be part of Enton (C's left+right eye explanation) wasn't referring to Enton but something any Amaterasu user could do.

As Seel said, Sasuke doesn't even focus his sight when using Enton. He can form it from his hands without using his eyes. Therefore Enton doesn't just alter an already cast Amaterasu, Enton can be used without first having cast any Amaterasu to modify. As an example: take it that Enton is like Mokuton, the wood gets created right away. We just incorrectly assumed that Enton is what would in case of a Mokuton user be using Water on top of already cast Earth--Elveonora (talk) 16:57, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * I got it, Elve-kun. But how do you explain his control of his Enton when he merged his technique with Naruto's Rasenshuriken in chapter #641? Also, about his sword version. We couldn't see his eye when he performed it. That can't be assumed that he can use it without his eye, right? — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 17:18, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * I said the remote control of black flames isn't Blaze Release, just something Sasuke can do with his eye and presumably Itachi could have learned too. And it can be clearly seen in chapter 641 that his eyes weren't used, he even had his hands behind his back--Elveonora (talk) 17:36, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Let's... let's just collect every information the manga gives us: Anything else? Seelentau 愛議 17:43, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Enton has something to do with Amaterasu, but we don't know what exactly.
 * It is in some way used in Enton: Kagutsuchi, but we don't know in what way.
 * It was not stated to be the reason for Sasuke's ability to control the black flames. We don't know how he does that.
 * This ^_ But also:


 * We know it's a nature and since it's called Blaze Release and not any of the basic five, it's an advanced one and at least Fire, hence its relation to Amaterasu--Elveonora (talk) 17:56, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Na. Don't be a hypocrite. We don't know if it's a nature. Seelentau 愛議 17:59, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Let us please not start that all over again.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:14, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Isn't it a Nature though? As far as Chakra Natures go, there's the base 5, Yin, Yang and the Advanced natures. There hasn't been a single "Release" ability that wasn't a nature of some kind. So presumably Blaze Release must be rooted with a Blaze Nature, like Wood Release etc. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 18:16, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * I know, but then there's the manga who isn't showing anything that would further support it being a nature... we really only have the ton ending that suggest it's a nature, there's nothing else. Seelentau 愛議 18:19, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Seel, no hypocrisy at my side. As Ultimate3 said, lets not go there again, it was agreed upon to be a nature. The "ton" is more than enough evidence of it being a nature. And as you were told, it's not just the "ton" there, but the "ton" being used as a prefix.--Elveonora (talk) 18:22, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * But it ain't more than enough evidence how C explained Sasuke's ability to control the flames while thinking of Enton: Kagutsuchi for Enton being the source of the form manipulation? Seelentau 愛議 18:25, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

No. Sasuke didn't call what he did there Enton: Kagatsuchi and there's evidence against it be. Let me just say this. In case a technique ever shows up that's called: "Kuchiyose: something" (with even the kanji being the same 口寄せ) and if that will be enough for you to conclude it's a summoning with no doubt, it you will be you who is the hypocrite ^_ This is the same thing with Enton, so why doubts?--Elveonora (talk) 18:32, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * He did. C, while explaining Sasuke's Keitaihenka, remembers Sasuke using Enton: Kagutsuchi. Seelentau 愛議 18:34, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * EDIT: He sure did I see. That doesn't mean the manipulation itself was Enton. Enton is more likely to be the flame itself--Elveonora (talk) 18:47, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * So, Enton: Kagutsuchi = flame control, but then what is Enton? Seelentau 愛議 18:57, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's a fire visually identical to that of Amaterasu with the only differences being that it has affix of a nature and can be used from body parts other than eyes, like hands or Susanoo orbs. And right, I think along the same lines. The right eye control thing may be the "Kagatsuchi" part.--Elveonora (talk) 19:10, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * He did the control-thing and didn't call it Kagutsuchi, though... Seelentau 愛議 19:12, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

i support theultimate here unless kishimoto gives us a offical explanatin we dont know all of it and there will be always different opinions on the matter but one of those is not better thatn the others. so i say leave the article and discuss theorries on the chatIloveinoxxx (talk) 19:18, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, when was that? @Ilove, it's not "theories" it's a reconsideration of our understanding of what we state as facts. Would you rather us falsely claim something? Better safe than sorry. All I propose is for us to remove the control part and move it elsewhere, because it obviously isn't correct to claim Enton is just control of Amaterasu, since he can use it with hands and without casting Amaterasu first.--Elveonora (talk) 19:39, March 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * When he set Susanoo's ribcage on fire. Seelentau 愛議 20:20, March 22, 2014 (UTC)