Talk:Six Paths Senjutsu

Facts
Something that proves this isn't speculative?--JOA20 (talk) 07:08, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * The manga, of course. The cloak Naruto dons after receiving all nine tb chakras is called Rikudō Senjutsu by Madara. Furthermore, he says that he himself has the same power. Other users of this are Obito and of course the Sage himself. When it comes to Obito, Madara called his staff transformation Senninka. The connection of Senninka and Rikudo Senjutsu has yet to be explained, though. Rikudo Senjutsu is the Nine Biju Mode, so to speak. • Seelentau 愛議 07:48, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * As you know, I completely disagree. I think you misinterpreted things. Rikudou Senjutsu is the power that Naruto's got, Madara didn't say it's the name of the form. The orbs and staff are part of the Ten-Tails' jinchuuriki form, they aren't separate things. What sense does it make for the staff to be called Sage Transformation and for the cloak Rikudou Senjutsu?--Elveonora (talk) 09:24, April 28, 2014 (UTC)


 * Excuse me, but don't you think technique is a bit confusing? I mean why not "Six Path Sage Mode" or something along that line? Justin Holland (talk) 00:08, July 23, 2014 (UTC)

Anyway, this article actually contradicts Seel's notion that it's the name of the jinchuuriki form, since according to Skarrj, it's a new Sage Mode, hence the infobox showing Naruto's face and not the cloak. Skarrj idea/interpretation differs from yours, Seelentau, so I don't see how come you don't disagree with him.

I actually partially agree with Skarrj, I take "Rikudou Senjutsu" as a technique/power too, but it isn't the Ten-Tails jinchuuriki form's name, that is called Sage Transformation. I interpret "Rikudou Senjutsu" as meaning simply "Hagoromo's Senjutsu (chakra)"

Hagoromo by giving Naruto his chakra granted him a sort of permanent Sage Mode, hence Naruto wasn't in need to absorb natural energy, he just woke up with it, also no pigmentation. So in short:
 * Rikudou Senjutsu = permanent Sage Mode
 * the orbs, staff, cloak and all jinchuuriki form = Sage Transformation--Elveonora (talk) 09:46, April 28, 2014 (UTC)

Sysop feedback on the whole terminology and phenomena thing?--Elveonora (talk) 11:39, April 28, 2014 (UTC)

Still counting the number of things that are confusing in the recent episodes, and shuddering when I think how much more complicated they're sure to get. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 11:44, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * What we know:


 * Upon Obito manifesting the orbs and staff, Madara called it Sage Transformation
 * Madara said that he and Naruto possess "Rikudou Senjutsu"

This is Seel's personal opinion: "The whole thing is part of the "Rikudō Senjutsu". The "Sage Transformation" is the part of "Rikudo Senjutsu" were a user uses Senchakra (and probably YYR) to create the orbs. The chakra mode Naruto and the others have has yet to be named, but is part of the "Rikudo Senjutsu", too. Just like the "Sage Mode" is part of the normal "Senjutsu"

I agree that "Rikudou Senjutsu" is everything surrounding the orbs, staff, cloaks and all, but IMO it simply refers to Hagoromo's Senjutsu chakra, not a brand of Senjutsu techniques, as Seel believes. So in short, my interpretation is that the jinchuuriki form is called Sage Transformation, while the power it uses is Rikudou Senjutsu, meaning my major disagreement with Seel is that while for him only the orbs/staff are Sage Transformation and cloaks are unnamed, for me the cloak too is part of the Sage Transformation. Also this article as it is, is basically fanon, because even tho I agree with some of it, it wasn't stated--Elveonora (talk) 12:12, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Key word, "my interpretation" and "IMO" (in my opinion, for those who don't dabble in internet lingo). None of which are facts. Seel's translations, however, are facts, and they point more to his explanation of things. Please don't turn this into another week long pissing match. You seem to think that because you don't agree with it, it cannot be so, but, while this article is in need of great restructuring, its not entirely false. That is the only thing I'm going to say about it. I've been in enough arguments this week, so I'm going to respectfully bow out after this message. Too many headaches >_< ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 20:57, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * As it goes with every new information we get, we should only write it down. Nothing else. Here, we write down that Madara called Naruto's cloak/abilites this and said that he has the same cloa/abilities. Then we write down what those abilities are and that's about it. Nothing about a Kyubi Mode or anything. • Seelentau 愛議 21:01, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree with you Seel. As much as I disagree with some of the things pertaining to other subjects, I think that, as much information as we're being thrown lately, its best to just record what we know and nothing more. Arguments like these are becoming too frequent and with the manga ending this year (or so I've been told), we'll have plenty of time to connect the dots and sort everything out once everything is said and done. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:05, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Foxie, I have almost wrote something very... "unnice" just now. Where do you see me disagreeing with any translation? I think you put your tongue down his opening too often, no offense. The translation doesn't point any more to his view of things than it does to mine, but whatever Seel says is a holy grail to you despite being just that, an opinion, but no, a specific individuals' opinions are facts around here, while opinions of us lesser beings are just that, opinions of course.

Anyway, the article as is now is good, with the fanon/unconfirmed stuff removed. I have nothing with it at the moment, save the name. Madara called Obito manifesting the orbs/staff Sage Transformation, that sounds more like the name of the Ten-Tails jinchuuriki's form than "Six Paths Sage Technique" does. It's even ironic, because originally you agreed with me. What sense does it make for the orbs/staff and all to be named separately, despite being part of the jinchuuriki form?--Elveonora (talk) 21:32, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * I call it as I see it. Whether that makes you mad or not doesn't concern me. Seel gave you the direct translations and how they fit into the context of the series, and you spun your own theories based on, and I quote, "your interpretation" and "your opinion" which simply isn't fact. The bad thing is, you ask for these translations, but then when they don't agree with you're theory, all of a sudden everyone who takes them at face value is "taking things too literal". And when they do agree with your theories, they're the law of the land (or in this case the wiki). Seel has recorded on this page all that we know to be fact from what has been told to us in the manga. If you have to rely on "I think", "in my opinion", and "my interpretation" to get your point across, then we're just going to go around in circles for weeks (like these previous article discussions), because theories can be debated forever. /rant


 * Seel is suggesting we simply record what the manga literally states to us and nothing more until we're told more. That's what's been done here. That's all that needs to be done here for the time being. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:40, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * And the manga wrote Madara calling Obito manifesting the orbs and staff "Sage Transformation" what do we do with that?--Elveonora (talk) 22:09, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * When we write Obito's section, we mention that. Nothing else. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:29, April 29, 2014 (UTC)

Name: Senjutsu of the Six Paths
And now for something completely different. Shouldn't the name be something like "Senjutsu of the Six Paths" or something? Given how Rikudo Sennin becomes Sage of the Six Paths? So shouldn't Rikodu Senjutsu then be Senjutsu of the Six Paths? Keep in mind I don't care regardless, I am just curious.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 11:56, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Depends on how literal you want to be with the translation. Rikudou means Six Paths and Senjutsu means Sage Technique/s, so the name is correct as is. Although I believe the Senjutsu part refers to Senjutsu chakra, not techniques. I interpret "Rikudou Senjutsu" as "Hagoromo's Senjutsu"--Elveonora (talk) 12:07, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think Senjutsu of Hagoromo derived from the Shinju after he became its jinchūriki. There are many kinds of senjutsu. Naruto could uses Sage Mode to fight against Obito (Six Paths), this is example. And after meeting with Hagoromo, he can combine Sage Mode with the chakra from nine tail beasts, similar to Hagoromo and Shinju, except senjutsu from the toads. When Madara states about that, it's not right exact. So, it's still the part of Sage Mode page, not an independent page. --Sulina (talk) 12:41, April 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * I also think "Rikudou Senjutsu" is Hagoromo's Senjutsu chakra and results in sort of a permanent Sage Mode. Madara got that as the Shinju's jinchuriki, while Naruto got that from Hagoromo who in turn had it from his magical tree relations.--Elveonora (talk) 12:54, April 28, 2014 (UTC)

Why is that "Senjutsu" is translated to "Sage Technique" in technique names when we don't do the same for other technique classifications, like genjutsu? For consistency, shouldn't this article be called "Six Paths Senjutsu" and this be "Senjutsu: Spiralling Serial Spheres"?--BeyondRed (talk) 00:48, April 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmm, maybe because Nin, Tai and Gen are the "big three" and thus are left untranslated... or so? • Seelentau 愛議 08:18, April 29, 2014 (UTC)

Obito a user
Where was it stated that Obito had this ability? Steveo920, 19:45, April 28, 2014

Madara was stated to have the abiity as well. Obito had everything Madara had when he said that: the Juubi, and a rinnegan. Plus when he created his shakujo when he impaled Madara, Madara called it Sage Transformation Riptide240 (talk) 00:10, April 29, 2014 (UTC)


 * Not to mention Obito bears the markings of the Senjutsu of the Six Paths. Definitely had it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:28, April 29, 2014 (UTC)


 * But how? To achieve Rikudō Senjutsu, isn't it: sage mode (any type) + TB chakra 1-9? So is it safe to assume that by absorbing the ten-tails, which I'm guessing is just a mass of natural energy, one automatically acquires a variant of sage mode? It makes sense that Madara has it because he absorbed Hashirama's sage chakra before sealing the ten-tails, which is obviously: TB chakra 1-9, into himself. Same for Naruto. But Obito never had sage mode to begin with.--The Zeitgeist (talk) 13:28, April 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * The Shinju is natural energy--Elveonora (talk) 21:26, April 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * So in that case, shouldn't there be a subsection for Obito called "Obito's Version"? --KirinNOTKarin98 (talk) 18:54, May 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * Bump --KirinNOTKarin98 (talk) 21:29, May 13, 2014 (UTC)

Picture
If we're mentioning that his chakra mantle is a form of this technique, then shouldn't the main pic be him when he woke up since it's the base? Riptide240 (talk) 01:55, April 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * No. The markings on Naruto's chakra mantle are the symbol of this brand of Senjutsu, so that's the picture we have. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 02:00, April 29, 2014 (UTC)

Obito's Markings
Shouldn't we mention that Obito's markings on his back is a little different. Unlike Hagoromo, Madara and Naruto Obito had the same 9 tomoes and above is tomoe-like Rinnegan--MERCURIOUS (talk) 14:02, April 29, 2014 (UTC)

Actual Debut
Is it better to change the debut to chapter #572 and episode #329 because of Hagoromo's markings appearance on his back? — Shakhmoot  (Talk) 13:45, May 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd say its better to err in the side of caution and say no. When seen with the beasts he did not have the Truth-Seeking Balls with him. While its possible he simply didn't have them active (as seen when Naruto first appeared with the Six Paths Sage Technique) we don't have any evidence to suggest he wasn't simply wearing a cloak with the same pattern. I think the first time we can say for certain that we saw it in use should be listed as the debut.--Soul reaper (talk) 13:51, May 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * Why're you guys thinking Naruto's appearance prior to having the new coat is part of this technique? • Seelentau 愛議 15:07, May 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well for a start, that's what the page says...--Soul reaper (talk) 15:15, May 1, 2014 (UTC)


 * When naruto fought Madara before the cloak, Madara said that his power had greatly increased and he was in Sage Mode. His cloak just enhanced that senjutsu power with the bijuu chakra. Riptide240 (talk) 15:36, May 1, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, the way I see it: But we don't know enough either way... you think the cloak orbs and all too are rikudou senjutsu, because when Madara said Naruto has it, his back was shown. So shrugs. But whatever it is, the actual debut is debut of truth seeking orbs--Elveonora (talk) 16:02, May 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * rikudou senjutsu = when he woken up
 * sage transformation = rikudou senjutsu + tailed beast chakra
 * Rikudo Senjutsu is a term Madara used referring to Naruto's cloak. That's really all we got. We don't know if healing Guy and the "permanent" Sage Mode are part of this, please remove it. • Seelentau 愛議 16:10, May 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * You are correct that we don't know if his Sage Mode eyes without pigment are part of this or just this, Kishimoto has been doing a pretty crap job at explaining things as of late. I give you that, that Naruto's back was shown when Madara used this term, but I wouldn't rule the eyes out either, because Sage Mode uses Senjutsu and Naruto got Rikudou Senjutsu, so I think it's a fair assumption.--Elveonora (talk) 16:15, May 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * It is, but with the manga being in the state it is right now, I'd just wait for more information. • Seelentau 愛議 16:26, May 1, 2014 (UTC)

Obito and Hagoromo Versions
Since both Obito and Hagoromo are listed as users, should they also have specific subsections dedicated to their versions? --KirinNOTKarin98 (talk) 02:16, May 27, 2014 (UTC)


 * Don't see why not.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 02:21, May 27, 2014 (UTC)

Derived techniques
Considering that according to Madara's claim, both he and Naruto are using this, does everyone find reasonable to list this technique as a parent technique to the various Sage Art techniques they've used so far? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:07, June 7, 2014 (UTC)

Well I do. If it weren't for the Six Paths Sage Technique, Naruto wouldn't be able to use the new, recent techniques he's displayed thus far. Same for Madara's case as well. Would he be able to use that lightning technique if it weren't for becoming the Ten-Tails Jinchuuriki thus gaining the SPST? WindStar7125 (talk) 00:30, June 7, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125

Not really. We don't even know if there's any difference between this and ordinary Senjutsu. The most common theory/speculation is that this simply refers to permanent Senjutsu--Elveonora (talk) 10:23, June 7, 2014 (UTC)

Any difference wouldn't matter. Madara noticed that what Naruto is using is specifically Six Paths Sage Technique, this would mean that every senjutsu technique he used since appearing in that stage would have this as parent, and since Madara himself said he has that power, his senjutsu attacks also would stem from this. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 13:15, June 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * In that case yes. But what about techniques with to "Sage" in their name, like Tailed Beast Ball Rasenshuriken?--Elveonora (talk) 13:40, June 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * That comes down to whether TSB should be considered derived from this as well. Considering that it's already a senjutsu that was only available to Naruto after he fully got into his current mode, I do believe that TSB should also have this as a parent. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:44, June 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * So do I.--Elveonora (talk) 15:14, June 7, 2014 (UTC)

Asura?
I just thought of Asura's avatar creature reminding me of this very technique and since he inherited Hagoromo's "body", could he have this technique as well?--Hockey Machete (talk) 22:21, June 7, 2014 (UTC)

No. The Six Paths Sage Technique requires senjutsu and either the Ten-Tails' chakra or the chakra of all nine tailed beasts. Asura was never noted to be a jinchuuriki. Plus, Indra inherited Hagoromo's "eyes," but he didn't have the Rinnegan. WindStar7125 (talk) 00:43, June 8, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125
 * Well but he obviously had Tailed Beast chakra, the "battle avatar" thing is almost given to be Tailed Beast Mode hence its similarity to Naruto's. We are just waiting for a confirmation at this point, but to me at least it's obvious. Hashirama didn't have it and the major difference between him and Naruto is that Naruto is a jinchuuriki. So if Ashura had something that Naruto has but not Hashirama, it's because of the Tailed Beast chakra difference. But even if it gets confirmed (that he was a host) I still wouldn't bet on those having been Truth Seeking Balls, since they might have been Tailed Beast Balls--Elveonora (talk) 11:34, June 8, 2014 (UTC)

saving guy and restoring eye
They had nothing to do with this, but Yang Release. Each time Naruto did those, he looked at his palm.--Elveonora (talk) 11:31, June 11, 2014 (UTC)

Bump--Elveonora (talk) 11:22, June 12, 2014 (UTC)

Considering Naruto was already in a powered state, I believe it's quite possible for it to have been a Yang Release Six Paths Sage Technique. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:08, June 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Fair play, although my point is that we should attribute it mostly to the Yang stuff rather than Senjutsu--Elveonora (talk) 14:26, June 12, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya
She has this too, considering that she didn't only ate the Shinju's fruit but now also is its jinchuuriki.--Elveonora (talk) 11:37, June 11, 2014 (UTC)


 * No proof of that yet. Especially considering as far as we know about what Kaguya actually is, nothing even changed about her prior and after eating the fruit. And she's only the Ten-Tails' jincuriki by proxy of having Madara's body as a medium, it still didn't alter her appearance nor provide her any of the benefits we've seen with the form.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:58, June 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * The floating/flying got attributed to this and she does so--Elveonora (talk) 12:17, June 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Pain and the Tsuchikage could fly too. Fu as well, but she had wings. Flight isn't all that important.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:21, June 11, 2014 (UTC)

Man, I am so sick of these discussions about the Paths. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 13:12, June 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hm? Then simply ignore them?--Elveonora (talk) 13:18, June 11, 2014 (UTC)

Senjutsu only?
Since it has been noted that only senjutsu works against Obito and Madara doesn't this mean that only senjutsu works on Naruto too?--Hunter4522 (talk) 23:45, June 19, 2014 (UTC)--Hunter4522 (talk) 23:48, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, so?--Elveonora (talk) 11:28, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya 2
Just in case someone makes an attempt to refute the validity of my edit, consider these first: --Elveonora (talk) 21:27, August 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ten-Tails was stated to be of natural energy
 * Kaguya flies, attributed to six paths power
 * Obito and Madara got Senjutsu of Six Paths after they became jinchuuriki, at last Obito definitely didn't from Hagoromo, since he wasn't an incarnate
 * Kaguya's back has been obscured by hair, so not evidence to contrary of her having it
 * Kaguya absorbed Naruto's chakra and didn't turn into a toad or stone statue


 * ...Or you can bring it to a talkpage. That's fine. This discussion should be interesting. WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 21:29, August 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Reverting. Its called Six Paths Sage Technique, because it belonged to the Sage of the Six Paths, not his mother. We literally have no proof that she has it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 23:18, August 17, 2014 (UTC)

Refuting your evidence (last I'll say on the matter, then others can finish):
 * Natural energy =/= Sage anything. Is the Ten-Tails a user of Sage Mode and Six Paths Senjutsu now too? It has chakra and nature energy too. Absolutely not.
 * Yeah, well, so does the previous three Tsuchikage. Don't recall them having any connections to Hagoromo. We don't even know how they do it. Not evidence.
 * Kaguya isn't the jinchūriki of herself. She is the Ten-Tails, the tailed beast's chakras, therefore, are parts of her own chakra (obviously since Naruto nearly pulled them out of her this time). Not evidence.
 * So you're saying that because we can't see the markings associated with it, we should consider them to be there anyways? No, I'd rather see them with my own eyes, thank you. Not evidence.
 * Yes, well, Madara absorbed Hashirama's chakra prior to becoming a jinchūriki and didn't turn to stone either. Could just mean that she didn't absorb enough to turn her (Pain literally absorbed all of Naruto's senjutsu chakra before he transformed and Naruto used the stillness to continue feeding him more and more of it, which sped it up) so again, I fail to see your point.

Long and the short of it is, you can't prove it, certainly not to the point that warrants her to be added to an article without discussion and especially since the last discussion on this matter told you not to add it too for the same reasons. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 23:54, August 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * Nope.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 00:06, August 18, 2014 (UTC)