Talk:Nagato

Nagato page
Shouldn't we make a separate page since pain is the 6 bodies and Nagato is guy controlling them


 * I concur. Pain and Nagato aren't the same being... Heck, Pain is actually a technique utilized by Nagato. 83.191.131.70 14:39, 16 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Then why dont we change the name, picture and stop calling him pain Jackrandle 16:34 march 2009 (utc)


 * I agree, as said above the "six Paths of Pain" is actually a technique and Nagato is the real being Shock Dragoon


 * Agreed, Nagato is his real name, Pain is just a disguise name he took up because he uses other bodies (and maybe a little because of his goal of showing true pain to everyone as well). As it is now, it's like naming the Hiruko puppet Sasori because Sasori used him or naming Madara's page Tobi just because he uses it as a cover name. --81.237.203.10 15:28, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * All in all, they are one being so considering them on one page should be right. Shikamaru42 14:24, 6 April 2009 (utc)

Six Paths of Pain
Now that it has been converted to the "Nagato" page, shouldn't we create a "Six Paths of Pain" page so we can save space on this page? Shock Dragoon
 * Sounds like a good idea. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Mar 27, 2009 @ 22:47 (UTC)
 * I personally don't believe it a good idea as we'd be striping most of the information about the character away. At least until Nagato is dead or permantaly defeated so that we can see what the pages would look like. ~Super Novice-Talk to Me~ 23:03, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm with Super on this one. Because Pain, just due to simplicity counts as two characters (I.E. Naruto is fighting Pain, he is looking for Nagato), I would wait until we know we don't have to deal with frequent updates before trying anything.--TheUltimate3 23:09, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It seems to me like a separate page will be needed soon. The Six Paths of Pain are, in effect, a jutsu utilized by the chakra receivers and the Rinnegan. On pages 13 and 14 of 441 we can see that Nagato does not actually occupy any of the bodies (namely the Deva Path). Instead, he transmits his own chakra to the bodes much like the puppet styles.


 * This means that it would be more accurate to classify Nagato as the character and Pain (or the Paths/Deva Path) entirely under either the "abilities" section or in an entirely new article.


 * The whole "Pain is Nagato/Nagato is Pain!" argument, while a good guess, lost credence in chapter 442 and was outright disproven in 441. It's probably best that we stop sticking to what's nice and cozy and familiar and change the page to what is the truth.--Newthx2u (talk) 02:49, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

NEW PIC
WHEN DID THE RED HEAD PICTURE OF NAGATO COME OUT!!!!!!! i never remember seeing this picture in anything is it fan colored??

one more thing should we move the 6 paths of pain and nagato in to 2 diffrent articles--PAIN (talk) 04:48, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The coloured pictures cam eout with chapter 442. Your second question was already answered in the section above yours.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 04:50, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry did not read the article above mine My Bad--PAIN (talk) 04:53, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I for 1 prefer the old pic.. AlienGamer
 * The old one isn't actually a picture of Nagato though now is it? Though i do admit he is ugly in the picture.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 04:55, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * -had to lol at that- Metus (talk) 08:16, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I prefer the old. But I'm gonna wait until others chime in. --TheUltimate3 (talk) 13:08, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Ya I Agree...These new pics look crappy...to say the least..... AlienGamer


 * It's not that it's crappy, cause in truth it's a good picture of Nagato. Just not the first picture we see of him.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 13:39, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

At least we should upload a High Quality part of that scan, this is a cropped part of the Sleepyfans scanlation and the qualiy is very bad, the same goes for the pictures in Yahiko and Konan's pages.--Dadadaft (talk) 15:10, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * It's not that it's a crappy picture (though a higher quality would be great) it's just from my standpoint, that's not the first picture we see of Pain. For all extensive purposes it's the last picture. TheUltimate3(Not at my own computer)--131.118.64.110 (talk) 15:12, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry Ultimate but what do you mean last? I understand it's the lastest picture but last...?  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 16:07, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * (Before going to class) Since Pain was introduced (i.e. We could see his face) it has been in order, Deva Path, First Animal Path, Preta and Human Path, Then Asura and Naraka Path, New Animal Path, and then after seeing 7 Paths of Pain we finally see Nagato. That's why this is technically his last appearance.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 16:45, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh I understand now.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 16:47, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Image policy has been to use the first appearance that a character has showed up with. The older pic may have been better just like how we use a Tobi pic for Madara Uchiha. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 3, 2009 @ 19:41 (UTC)
 * I uploaded the redhead pic. I understand that the "first appearance" pic is the one that's usually used, but God Realm isn't actually Nagato. If this page was the "Pain" page, then God realm would be fine. However, this is the "Nagato" page. Lest just stick to the main pic being a (preferably higher quality) redhead pic.--NurXang (talk) 20:28, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I understand what you're saying Dantman but wouldn't this situation be a bit different? In the Madara one It's the same person and body but different names. In this one though it's two different bodies, two different names just both under that same control.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 20:32, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not two different names. "Nagato" is the old name, "Pain" is his alias. Just like "Madara Uchiha" is using the alias "Tobi". And while he has multiple bodies, it's not a case of control where an external person is being manipulated but still owns that body. Nagito's ability takes dead corpses and allows him to manipulate them as his own body, for all intensive purposes the bodies become his body and no longer belong to the old owner. He may be a patchwork made up of multiple bodies, but they are still his bodies. Just like how Kakuzu takes other people's body parts and replaces his own with them, has multiple hearts none of which even have to be his own, and can separate his body into 5 individual bodies. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 3, 2009 @ 21:45 (UTC)
 * No. just pretend that the 1st time we saw Kankaro was one of his puppets we still wouldn't put 1 of his puppets for his picture. Vegerot (talk) 14:53, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd say you're correct, this situation is a bit different. This is more like the situation with Sasori and Hiruko. None of the Six Paths of Pain are actually Nagato, they're corpses he controls like puppets using his chakra transmitters. Deva Path, for example, is simply Nagato manipulating and acting through Yahiko's dead body. Unless we get enough information on Nagato to warrant the seperate articles for Nagato and Pain, I think that this is probably for the best; We don't know how much info we'll get on his various bodies when the next data book comes out, so I think it's best to keep this page Nagato-centric for now, since we actually have stats for him. At any rate, I'm currently cleaning up and enhancing a higher quality scan of the 442 frontispiece, and will upload better images of Nagato shortly, as well as Yahiko and Konan. FF-Suzaku (talk) 21:58, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Kankuro's puppets are puppets, he controls them through chakra threads. Pain's paths are bodies, he manipulates them from inside without any chakra threads, he sees what they see, and feels what they feel. They are bodies, puppets are inanimate objects. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 3, 2009 @ 22:01 (UTC)


 * Actually, he controls them by transmitting his chakra (via the numerous black rods piercing his back) into the chakra reciever piercings on the bodies -- like a remote control. The bodies are the corpses of deceased shinobi, and I believe dead bodies are generally considered inanimate (hence why bringing them to life is called reanimation). He doesn't control them from "within", though if he did, it wouldn't be much different from the way Sasori controls Hiruko, which he wears like armor; furthermore, Sasori was able to transplant his heart into other puppets and take control of them. We still don't know the exact details of how Nagato manipulates them, but it's probably similar to the way he is able to paralyze his still-living enemies by stabbing them with the black spears and pouring his own chakra into their bodies (with an image of the Rinnegan always appearing in the background behind them). FF-Suzaku (talk) 23:09, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * This is absurd, Nagato's page deserves a picture of Nagato and a Pain page deserves a picture of Deva Path. It's not fair that the wiki has to have wrong images just because the admins think that's the way it should be. Separate the Pain and Nagato pages and the problem will be solved.--Dadadaft (talk) 23:45, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * They are technically the same person. If you read the section above this section you can see why they won't seperate them into two pages.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 23:49, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I'll refer you all to my reason on the above discussion. Not too sure if it will count seeing as how i disagree with 2 out of the 3 individuals who's opinions actually count.--Newthx2u (talk) 05:56, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Breaking off a bit to make some notes and summarize things a bit. There is something important to point out. One of the things consensually decided some time ago. The wiki is meant to be relevant to anyone reading despite whatever point of the series they are in. That's why we try to avoid "current" things and try to use past tense in articles (a little trouble getting every new editor to understand this though). The relevant point there is that we try to use the first relevant picture of that character since it was agreed on that the first appearance is the most relevant to all readers. There may or may not have been another note in that, I can't quite remember if there was anything about bodies. In any case I just realized we've all forgotten about Sasori for ages and his page was never made to fit whatever policy we came up with.
 * We have "Nagato" and "Pain" as names. "Nagato" is the real name, and "Pain" is an alias just like "Tobi".
 * Note we also have "Six paths of Pain". If we were ever to split pages then it would be "Nagato" and "Six paths of Pain". "Pain" isn't a separate being so the only relevancies are "Nagato" (the person) and "Six paths of Pain" (his technique and alternate bodies)
 * Nagato has a body of his own which is revealed fairly late on in the manga.
 * Nagato has six other bodies, whatever you want to call them, he controls them.
 * Out of these the deva path is the first appearance Nagato makes under the name Pain.
 * For the majority of the first part of the series Nagato/Pain is shown the deva path is the body that takes his role.

Another thing to note. The new infoboxes when built on the soul eater wiki had an improvement to the image system made on them. It was actually done in the back end so as a result it's even usable inside of the old infoboxes, it was recently moved from the souleater wiki and pushed out across all wiki in the sync que. The |image name= parameter supports some extra options. Size can be specified after a : and anything after a ; gets turned into a caption, as well it's actually setup as a newline separated list so there is support for multiple images inside the infobox. You can take a look at an example in use at w:c:souleater:Kishin Hunt. So it would be possible to have both the deva path and then his original body in the infobox with captions since they are both relevant. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 4, 2009 @ 08:11 (UTC)
 * "Now that it has been converted to the "Nagato" page, shouldn't we create a "Six Paths of Pain" page so we can save space on this page? Shock Dragoon"
 * "Sounds like a good idea. ~NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Mar 27, 2009 @ 22:47 (UTC)" --Newthx2u (talk) 00:25, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * An important thing to note about the images. The debate on whether Pain is Nagato or not really has no bearing. It doesn't matter whether by some technicality Pain's bodies are puppets or not. When it comes to things like infobox images identification is what is important. Whether or not the Pain bodies are part of Nagato or not doesn't matter, what matters is the fact that they are controlled by the same will, and for a good portion of the series the deva path was identified with as the appearance for Nagato/Pain.
 * The big rationale for using earliest images like a part I image of Shino inside the infobox rather than a part II image of him is identification. Shino was identified with by his part I appearance when he was first introduced, that image was stuck with for all of part I, and while he has a new appearance in part II the part I appearance is still relevant to both those reading/watching part I and those reading/watching part II. Thus we use a part I image to identify him.
 * Likewise, whether or not the deva path is technically part of Nagato or not the fact is that he was identified with as Nagato/Pain's appearance for a good part of the series. Think of it from a new readers perspective; Someone who has gotten up to the recent parts of the anime where "Pain" starts to show up. They come to the wiki and look for "Pain". Get redirected to "Nagato" (even if we create "Six Paths of Pain" there will still only be one character article). Then staring at the infobox think "Who is that? That's not the person I'm looking for information on?"
 * ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 6, 2009 @ 19:34 (UTC)

he is look ugly in that picture i think nagato's hair is black82.201.251.176 (talk) 19:39, 6 April 2009 (UTC)hedgehogs
 * It doesn't matter what we think about how Nagato looks, it's the fact in an offical picture he has red hair.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 19:43, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Ya, up till awhile ago we were under the assumption that Nagato had orange hair since all of Pain's bodies had orange hair. But fact is the only reason hair looks black in images, is because manga is black and white. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 6, 2009 @ 19:52 (UTC)
 * I don't know how many time's i'm going to need to say that Deva Path is not, in fact, nagato. All of the path's have been destroyed, yet Nagato is still alive as Nagato. Plus, if somebody who's not up to date is stupid enough to base an entire article off of an unfamilliar main pic and not even read the first sentece, then i'm fairly certain that they shouldn't be on here in the first place. Let me pose this question: If we eventually get a better pic of the Sage of the Six Paths, are we going to keep the creepy shadow pic "because it's what we saw first"? I mean, showing a pic after his first appearance would just confuse the SHIT out off everybody, right? --Newthx2u (talk) 20:16, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I believe this can be answered with the question: Are we still showing the sillouette of Pain since it's the first thing we saw? You have to think with the point of view that everyone is a beginner when dealing with an encyclopedia.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 20:18, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The arguement that the Deva Path isn't Nagato is irrelevant, because the Deva Path is/was the main body of Pain who IS Nagato. When Pain was introduced, we see him as the Deva Path. That picture, that body, that Pain is what he is identified with. When we are introduced to his true body, that does not change the fact that he is identified with Pain. And using a silhouette as their "first appearance" is grasping at best. If that were the case, then Orochimaru's image would be a silhouette. Hell, ALL of Akatsuki would be a Silhouette.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 20:26, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * @Newthx2u's comment: Readers are readers, whether they are up to date with the series or not. In fact the reader is even more important when they aren't up to date, because they are the people without the information who are coming to the wiki to get the information they are missing. And the fact is that people do base off an appearance, if we give a completely unfamiliar image right up front without showing off the early general appearance of the character then the person who is hunting the wiki for an article on a character will think that he got the wrong article and will end up on a wild goose chase trying to find the character article for the character they've just seen in the series.
 * As for silhouettes, you aren't grasping the looseness of the explanation. This is guideline style policy, not flat rigid rule. When we talk about "earliest appearance" we're talking about the earliest general appearance of the character that is stuck with. Thus, we don't use a picture of Naruto painted up like he was in the first episode since that isn't what the series stuck with to identify the character. And we aren't stuck with silhouettes because those are the same appearance. We count the general appearance, in other words a different "appearance" is one where there was a border crossed (a character grew up, got a huge makeover, stole someone else's body and made it their own, etc...), a silhouette is not one of those, it's just a hard to see version of the character's general appearance. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 6, 2009 @ 20:50 (UTC)
 * Still, suppose the paths remain destroyed, yet nagato survives and goes on for the rest of the series as just Nagato. Will we still stick to this first-image policy?
 * People still seem to be insisting that because we saw Deva Path first he's the one we'll stick to. Why then, may i ask, do we have the redheaded sasori pic on his page? We went for chapters and chapters and chapters of seeing Hiruko, and commonly associate them as the same. This is almost the EXACT SAME THING as what we're dealing with with Nagato right now. Look at their histories:
 * 1) We both start off seeing them as silouettes, then go on to see their "real bodies"
 * 2) After a fight with them starts, we learn that these are not, in fact, their real bodies.
 * 3) We then find out that the real person is controlling what we originally thought to be the real bodies.
 * at this point they split, because the Sasori page gets a pic of the REAL Sasori, yet the nagato page STILL KEEPS THE SAME INCORRECT PIC! --Newthx2u (talk) 22:21, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * I already noted Sasori earlier on, we all forgot about Sasori for ages and his infobox was never made to fit. If you'll take a good look Sasori's page has been ignored so much that there's no relevant discussion on the talkpage, and his infobox isn't even in the Infobox: namespace. We can deal with Sasori later.
 * As for the comment on the paths destroyed and Nagato is continued. Yes, because that's precisely the same case as a Part I vs. Part II image. Saying we should switch image because the series has started to use the new appearance more is like saying that we should use Part II images because Part II of the series is using Part II images more than Part I images.
 * One thing you haven't even commented on is the compromise I listed. If it's not clear THAT is what I am arguing for at this point. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 7, 2009 @ 01:54 (UTC)
 * Hmm, your compromise intrigues me. How exaclty are you proposing the pics be organised? --Newthx2u (talk) 05:30, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You mean that two picture thing? Oh lord that looks awful... and unnecessary--TheUltimate3 (talk) 11:52, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I did some experimentation. Rather than the standard setup, there is an actual interesting alternative. Infobox talk:Nagato. With a little image ratio tweaking and some css fixes that I think I forgot to move from the soul eater wiki to the shared styles, it could look pretty good. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 7, 2009 @ 17:03 (UTC)
 * It looks okay, equal size to make it better but I believe it'd stop most of the arguments. We'd have to do the same for Sasori, no?  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 17:06, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yup, I was going to hunt/poke for a image to go along with Sasori after this discussion was resolved to make Sasori fit with whatever we decided to do here. The size ratio tweaking I mentioned is what would fix them to be equal size.
 * Just a side note I realized, just as an amusing fact rather than an argument since the discussion is looking constructive anyways. Brining Sasori into the picture shows a little flaw in the "Pain's paths are not Nagato's body and should not be used to depict him" argument. Sasori's "body" isn't his body, in fact he doesn't even have one anymore. By that argument neither of the forms we see Sasori in could even be considered valid pictures, cause neither of them are bodies, Sasori discarded his body and replaced his own body with a puppet. ^_^ By rationale that we should be using physical bodies Sasori's infobox image should be a close up of the object containing his heart in Image:Sasori's Pupet Body.jpg *snickers*. (On a side note, someone mind finding an image of that anyways, I think a close up of that thing after it's jumped out of Sasori's puppet body would be a good pic to put inside the article). ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 7, 2009 @ 17:38 (UTC)
 * Based off what you said there, and if we decided to go along with that the only proper imagines we could put for Sasori would be his child picture or the piture of his heart as they are the only time it's showing his living tissue.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 17:42, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yup, why I noted it as an amusing note. Though remember we don't use flashback pics, (Why you see a Tobi picture in Madara Uchiha) so the child picture would be irrelevant to the infobox. Really that picture of his heart would be our infobox pic, heh. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 7, 2009 @ 17:56 (UTC)

It'd be...easier to just use the picture with his head. I mean, yeah its techincally a puppet but really. I mean really. THAT would be overboard. I hope that was a joke. And if we have to use two pictures why not just combine the two? It won't be hard. Hell it'd be stupid easy.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 18:09, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * If we combine the pictures into one image wouldn't it fall under Fanart?  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 18:12, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Then we alter the definition of Fanart >.> anything is better than stuffing two pictures in a infobox.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 18:13, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * It falls under the definition of an edited image, and we try to avoid those. There is nothing wrong with using two images, in fact that gives us more freedom with scaling and lets links actually point to the respective full size images. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 8, 2009 @ 02:15 (UTC)


 * ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 8, 2009 @ 02:24 (UTC)


 * There is just one this I wanna say that's bad about having two images even though at this point it doesn't really matter which goes up as long at it looks good while it is up. If we upload two images where one is best have a great length and another is best having a greater width how would we solve this when they have to fit in the infobox? If we have two images up then both images would have to be best length or best width.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 03:08, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I"ll agree to this. It seems to solve all of the problems. I feel that we should go with the "2 Caption" option as it would offer better explanation as to why there are two images. I think that a simple "Nagato" and "Pain" caption will do for each. --Newthx2u (talk) 03:40, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Hell, even i'll agree to this. --NurXang (talk) 03:42, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Editing Ideas
Well, I was thinkin', maybe we should make a part about his real body, and his/its abilities, like ya did with the other bodies. And, I know where he uses Wind Release: Violent Wave Palm (I think that's the name, and it would be really cool if Naruto learned this sometime), but why isn't it listed with one of his bodies, or all of them if they can all use it? That's all.--Kagimizu-Seeya 'round~ 22:39, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * It's Wind Release: Violent Wind Palm. It's not listed with any of his bodies because he used he used it as a child, with his real body. As for his main body, any abilities he uses with it should probably be included in the main body of his abilities section. Right now, the article looks as though it would need a considerable amount of updating to bring everything in line with the recent change of making it center more around Nagato than on his "Pain" persona.

Ordering of Bodies
I believe we should reorder the list of bodies in their order of appearence; Deva, Former Animal, Preta and Human, Asura and Naraka, Animal or whatever offical list Buddisum has for the realms; Deva, Human, Asura, both Animals, Preta, Naraka. Six realms  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 23:02, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought we were already ordering the bodies by order of appearance? If the ordering is wrong then that should be fixed to be in order of appearance. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 3, 2009 @ 23:06 (UTC)
 * I've put them in correct order by appearence now. Dantman, question how are we going to handle the 'path' in the name of the Sage of the Six Paths?  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 23:14, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Need a little more thought on how to deal with what is a title and what isn't. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 4, 2009 @ 04:41 (UTC)
 * Ok, thoughts are a little clearer. We have "Path", "Six Paths of Pain", "Pain Rikudo", "Sage of the Six Paths", "Rikudo Sennin", and "Some Path". The biggest issue was that I looked through the article and saw a huge pile of capitalized "Path[s]" which were completely ungrammatical since path isn't a proper noun. Quite frankly "Six Paths of Pain" looks odd, but I guess it and "Sage of the Six Paths" are titles. "Some Path" is debatable however. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 4, 2009 @ 08:25 (UTC)

Main Picture
Shouldn't the main picture be a picture of the real Nagato, and not the one of the Deva path? The picture that is in the article is just the Deva Path. I suggest using this one. Also, shouldnt the Yakiko main article picture be that of the Deva Path? Just asking, because on a flash page, it was organized like such: Konan as a kid, Konan, Yahiko, Deva Path, Nagato as a kid, real recent Nagato, etc... --NejiByakugan360 (talk) 14:18, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Read this section.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 14:26, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm all with you on this, man, it makes perfect sense to have the Nagato page have a pic of Nagato. Unfortunately Dantman, SuperN, and Ultimate3 dissagree with this oppinion, so the rest of our oppinions don't really hold any sway right now. --Newthx2u (talk) 18:09, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * This has absolutely nothing to do with opinion right now. The current image is set as the deva path image because that is the image we used to have up, discussion on the topic has not finished and consensus has not been established, so we leave the image as it used to be. There is more to consider than just opinions on whether pain is nagato or not, and a compromise has been suggested as well. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 6, 2009 @ 19:20 (UTC)

Nagato alive?
Im VERYYY confused. Does Nagato control Pain? But the Six Paths move on there own... so..... is Nagato alive? And are the Six Paths of Pain completely different people, only know Nagato and what happened, so they are sort of like him? AHHHHHHH!!!!!
 * The Six Paths are a jutsu Nagato uses with his Rinnegan to reanimate and control dead bodies. Nagato is still very much alive.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 01:11, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Different
Guys, i thought you might want to check out page 3 of chapter 443. Nagato says, and i quote, "THE LAST PAIN WAS DESTROYED". this shows that EVEN NAGATO regards pain as a separate entity and a technique. I think this should, in some way, influence the way we deal with the whole "image" debate. --Newthx2u (talk) 03:30, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * How so? We already came to an agreement that the Six paths are a technique what more is there to discuss? <font color="#0000A0"> ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 03:38, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Yeah, but quite a few people are still convinced that they are two parts of the same person. I'm simply showing that this is not the case. --Newthx2u (talk) 03:40, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * They are basically two parts of the same person. This is why this this "revelation" accomplishes nothing to our current debate.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 03:42, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * But Nagato regards himself as separate from Pain, and nobody really has more authority over who Nagato is-and-is-not. --Newthx2u (talk) 03:47, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Nagato and Pain are still essentially the same person. The same mind comtrolling multiple bodies. <font color="#0000A0"> ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 03:49, 10 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Which is why this little debate ends here. We aren't going to go back and forth with this again, not after the very long war we had above.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 03:53, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I have no intention of starting a debate, we have plenty of that above. Assumptions like "basically two parts" and "essentially the same person" are now disproven by Nagato. He's said it himself. Not me, not anybody here, but the actual character. We can guess whatever we want, but we, as editors, need to stick to what the source material says. They're separate. It's cannon now. --Newthx2u (talk) 03:56, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Dead
Sould i make it show that all of the SIx Paths are dead? It says on the newest Manga, Chapter 443. --7th Body (talk) 19:27, 10 April 2009 (UTC)7th Body
 * No, the bodies were dead from the beginning so putting dead is redundant. That's why we have incapacitated. <font color="#0000A0"> ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 19:30, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Overall Agreement
Hopefully this discussion will condense 3 or 4 separate ones into a single agreement as to the future of the Nagato page. Here's a list of provisions that have been brought up and, to a degree, will hopefully satisfy everybody:
 * 1) Use the 2-Image infobox. This way uninformed users will recognize the page, yet we will still have an accurate image since it is the "Nagato" page.
 * 2) Refer to all actions done by the bodies as "Pain", but all backstory, thoughts by the character, and actions by the real body as "Nagato". To an extent this is already done, but it should be enforced to a degree for clarity and uniform structure.
 * 3) Create a separate, "Jutsu" page for the 6 Paths. A substantial "basic info" section should remain in the "Nagato" page, probably the initial 3 paragraphs (I revised it just a minute or so ago). This means that the individual descriptions of the 6 bodies can be moved to the separate page. This way we unclog the Nagato page, and allow for greater work on the bodies on a separate page.

With any hope these 3 provisions will make everybody happy, and keep the page (or 2) in a uniform structure and keep all information sufficient and cannon (which is, in all reality, what our job is here, am i right ;) ). Your thoughts? --Newthx2u (talk) 00:32, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Still pointless to create a Six Paths page. We've been over that before. I am still personally against the 2 picture thing because it just looks bad but that's just me, and I believe we already do that with the Nagato doing one thing and Pain doing the other.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 00:34, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I personally think that the Six Paths page would be beneficial. It's pretty much the only major Jutsu in the wiki that is not entirely explained on an article independent from it's user. If we simply trasfer the info on the six bodies to another page it will unclog a massive part of the page. I'm not saying we remove it entirely from the nagato page, just the majority. --Newthx2u (talk) 00:52, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * You have to remember though that the Six paths of Pain are unlike any other jutsu shown in the series. As for your 3-point list I'm against #3, okay with #2 and if #1 doesn't look good well... <font color="#0000A0"> ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 00:55, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I fail to find a rule that, if a jutsu is "unlike any other", it deserves attachment to another page. if anything, it's uniqueness almost demands it's own article. --Newthx2u (talk) 01:27, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

A note on 3. To be frank we actually have enough information on the individual paths that we could actually create individual articles on each. For all intensive purposes, each body has it's own path name, they have individual appearances, and they have individual jutsu. While they are all part of Nagato's will (which is basically our definition of Person here) there is enough individuality between paths to make individual pages work. It would also make dealing with Jutsu and semantics easier. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 11, 2009 @ 06:40 (UTC)
 * If we do that we'll be treating a jutsu as if it's a person, individual people. Where would we draw the line then? Everytime a puppet shows up then we'd have to get them a new page. Sasori, Kankuro, Chiyo and that guy who was the first Puppet master. Sasori's page would need to be split in two for his original body and his puppet one. You see where I'm going with this?
 * Because the Six path's of Pain are under Nagato's will, the will of one person and are a jutsu he utilizes we should kept under his page as never before has a jutsu worked like this. Yes he classifies they them as being 'different then himself but we do the same with our hands and feet. They move of our will and if they we to be cut off they won't move anymore.
 * In closing I'm not even sure what I'm fighting for anymore... <font color="#0000A0"> ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 15:49, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * We aren't sure either, SuperN. Anyways to Dantman, I think that individual pages for the 6 paths might be taking it a bit too far. The Jutsu is called the 6 Paths of Pain, so i think we should just keep them together. It think needing to go to six separate pages to see the whole jutsu is a bit of a test of patience for the reader. I'm not calling for some massive reformatting, just transplanting what we already have on the 6 paths to another page. It really wouldn't be much different than how we deal with all the Rasengan on Naruto's page. --Newthx2u (talk) 18:43, 11 April 2009 (UTC)--
 * Page has never carried the connotation of "Person". We even have Sakon and Ukon on one page despite them being two people. It's always based on content. (Do we have enough information to warrant an individual page. Will splitting this up make the content easier to deal with. Semantics as well)
 * For clarification I'm noting something similar to what we do in a number of pages on the wiki. Nagato has the primary nagato info, links to Six Paths of Pain which describes the six paths and includes summary sections trancluded from the individual articles on the paths like we do in other pages like Ninja Ranks. It's a fairly nice pattern that lets us focus articles, not duplicate anything, but also provide summaries for things on relevant general pages.
 * As for SuperN's note. Giving the paths individual pages doesn't change anything with other pages, it's all based on content. Besides what's so bad about giving puppets their own articles, we do get enough information on them. To be honest we even have a page for Hiruko. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 11, 2009 @ 20:46 (UTC)
 * I suppose for the sake of resolving this problem once and for all i'll agree to the six individual articles, although i still think it's a bit excessive.
 * So what do we do now? I'm not exactly sure how one starts a new page (or six), but i'd be happy to do it if pointed in the right direction. --Newthx2u (talk) 22:02, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Just finished working on a theoretical example to see what you guys'd think of it. I"m only pasting it with the Deva Path to save space, but i think you guys get the idea. Oh, you're gonna have to copy/paste it since i don't know how to preview a full wiki yet :( --Newthx2u (talk) 01:41, 12 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Name:
 * Type: Unknown Rank, Offensive, Short, Med, Long range
 * Users: Nagato
 * Hand Seals: None
 * Debut (Anime): Naruto Episode 81
 * Debut (Manga): Chapter 363

The 6 Paths of Pain is, by far, Nagato's most powerful and most-used technique. This technique allows Nagato to control six separate bodies as though they were his own. Each of these bodies are reanimated corpses that are both kept mobile by, and make use of Nagato's chakra. While controlling them, Nagato uses the alias "Pain", yet still regards them as separate from himself.

Use
In order to use the technique, Nagato remains in a machine that moves with six relatively small mechanical legs, and use several large chakra rods on his back to transmit chakra. From there, the chakra is picked up by the numerous receivers on each body. To control them, Nagato has to be close by, and ideally at the highest point possible so he can have the best range possible.

Deva path
The, Pain's first observed body, is the body of Yahiko, and possesses medium length spiky hair, six piercings and a metal bar through each ear, three studs through the side of his upper nose and one spike stud on each end of his bottom lip. Three piercings under each other in each wrist, at least one on his upper wrist and some just under his neck. He also wears a beaded necklace.
 * Incapacitated

The Deva path's main abilities revolve around manipulating gravity, allowing him to repel or attract objects. However, he cannot perform it in rapid succession, leaving him vulnerable for a short period of time after its use. This period of time between usages may vary from five seconds to several minutes, depending upon the force of the repulsion or attraction. When performing a large scale attack, Nagato must first severe his connection with the other bodies.

In addition to its main ability the body can use a number of other miscellaneous jutsu, something none of the other bodies have been seen doing. It can use the Shapeshifting Technique to make body doubles of other with human sacrifices. It can also control rain, a possible throwback to Yahiko (who wanted to be able to stop the rain in Amegakure), which allows him to sense the chakra of everyone in Amegakure.

Chief among its unique abilities is the Illusionary Dragon Nine Consuming Seals that Akatsuki uses to seal the tailed beasts. The members convene to forcibly extract the beast from its host's body over a three day period and store it in a giant statue. The Deva path has been the only body to be seen interacting with other Akatsuki members besides Konan. When all six bodies are in active use Nagato tends to speak only through the Deva path, even sacrificing other bodies to keep it safe. This suggests that Nagato has some partiality to the body or that it is merely the most valuable.


 * Jutsu
 * Divine Force
 * Banshō Ten'in
 * Chibaku Tensei
 * Shinra Tensei
 * Fierce Raining at Will
 * Five Seals Barrier
 * Illusionary Dragon Nine Consuming Seals
 * Magic Lantern Body Technique
 * Mirrored Sudden Attacker
 * Shapeshifting Technique

Influences
Based after the six Buddhist paths of Reincarnation, each body is named after the one of the different "paths": Deva, Preta, Animal, Human, Naraka, and Asura. The only common feature shared by these bodies is their bright orange hair and Rinnegan eyes. Each also has a vast number of body and facial piercings of various shapes, sizes, and patterns. Each body seems to serve a specific purpose in battle, such as summoning, repair, and defense.

God path pic
Do you think we should use the picture of god path that came out in 442 because i don't think we should use the same picture twice.--PAIN (talk) 01:20, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
 * If you can upload a legalized copy in good quality then we can see what happenes from there. I do agree with you on teh double image thing though. Surprised it wasn't uploaded with the others. <font color="#0000A0"> ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 01:23, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Jutsu Page
I'm still working on the pages for the 6 paths, so i'm begging you not to delete the other page right away. I'd prefer discussion opens once it's completed. --Newthx2u (talk) 04:55, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

brothers
are nagato and yahiko naruto's brothers?someone tell meNarusuke55 (talk) 23:49, 13 April 2009 (UTC)narusuke55
 * No, they are orphans from Amegakure who were trained by Jiraiya in the past. They are both much older than Naruto. FF-Suzaku (talk) 00:13, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Profile picture
First off, great job on seperating the Pain articles. It works very, very well. Anyway, I went ahead and created a new, single profile picture, using the color images from chapter 442. I cropped it down to feature just the two characters, and slid the two panels together to remove the gutter. I also very carefully edited out a small amount of text that covered portions of the tops of the panels, and a portion of the Naruto logo from the lower lefthand side. The images can easily be seperated into two seperate images, but I really don't think it's neccesary. Perhaps "proxy" or "proxy body" instead of avatar, but I honestly can't think of another word that better describes Deva path than "avatar". Thoughts, comments? FF-Suzaku (talk) 00:16, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I already created a huge table above listing why we wouldn't be using a combined edit job. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 15, 2009 @ 02:44 (UTC)
 * Well, like I said, I can easily seperate them if you'd rather use them for the profile pictures. Since they are situated side by side as part of a larger title page, and have the same shading, facial focus, etc., they might work better. FF-Suzaku (talk) 03:51, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Uploading the other image would be a good idea. But any sort of manual cropping disrupts the image and it's quality itself. It especially disrupts the quality of the full-size version. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 15, 2009 @ 04:09 (UTC)
 * I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "manual cropping" and disrupting the quality of the full-size version, but the two frames are shown in their entirety here. The two frames appear side-by-side, seperated by a thin gutter (frame/border), along with the frame used as Konan's profile picture, as part of a single artwork that shows all three of them in their childhood as well as at the current moment in time. This basically just crops it down to the frames of present Pain and Nagato. FF-Suzaku (talk) 06:10, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Well you already made the change. Though I think we should have used FF-Suzaku if we were going to do that. Cause as expected the two picture thing just looks...stupid. They are on the same page and what not.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 04:21, 15 April 2009 (UTC)