Talk:Itachi Uchiha

This bit of information was added to the article in Trivia. It really doesn't fit as that in the article.
 * "Itachi is Japanese for 'weasel' and Uchiha is Japanese for 'paper fan'."

Can someone find the Kanji to go with it and create a paragraph on the name for the main section of the article just like you see on most Wikipedia character articles. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Sep 30, 2007 @ 23:36 (UTC)

Actually, "Uchiwa" is 'paper fan.' Madara uchiha99 14:11, 3 December 2007 (UTC)Madara uchiha99

Can someone delete Itachi Uchiha/original article?
Really, I just finished adding all the missing information from the original to the new article & renamed the Akatsuki section to fighting style and abilities (since it really had nothing to do with Akatsuki), and divided some of the first paragraph into a history section. Tales-of-a-fan 15:44, 5 October 2007 (UTC) :It was actually merged. The original article content still exists on the redirect page. That would not be the case if it was a deletion. --69.156.205.13 04:01, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
 * Never mind I misread that. --69.156.205.13 04:02, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Uchiha clan survivors?
In the blurb at the top, it says Itachi is one of the three surving Uchiha Clan members. Is this right? I know there's Sasuke and Itachi...who's the third?


 * Tobi (Madara Uchiha) counts as the third.--TheUltimate3 22:09, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Anbu
Wouldn't Itachi count as a Tokubetsu Jonin? He was on the ANBU... Madara uchiha99 14:10, 3 December 2007 (UTC)Madara uchiha99
 * Well, Tokubetsu Jonin is actually a lower rank than Jonin last time I checked. Anyone know if he reached the actual Jonin level? ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Dec 3, 2007 @ 17:48 (UTC)

Actually, yes he did. In a flashback episode, you learn that he became a jonin, then an ANBU captain. And Tokubetsu Jonin have Jonin-like skill in one area, rather than all around Jonin training. Ebisu is a Tokubetsu and has Jonin-level skills in the basics, which is why Kakashi asked him to help Naruto prepare for the Chunin Exams. So technically, you could call the Tokubetsu 'teachers', and are of a lower rank then Jonin, or at least of a different classification.Rasengan Master 04:17, 23 March 2008 (UTC)Rasengan Master


 * I thought it said Chunin, then ANBU. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares 20:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The order goes: A) Hokage, B) Jonin (ANBU, regular, Tokubetsu; in that order), C) Chunin, D) Genin, and E) Academy students. Tokubetsu isn't really a level like Chunin or Genin, it's more of a sublevel. A branch, if you will.Rasengan Master 08:27, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Checking
Can someone check over this large removal edit? ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Feb 9, 2008 @ 08:43 (UTC)

Well......
i liked this articale but it seemed to lack information on his current events, like the fact that sasuke stabbed him twice then questioned him.......... and i'm not the person to fix things like that.

Itachi vs Jiraiya
Uhhhh........... Itachi is not weaker than jiraiya and with Susano'o could kill Jiraiya no matter what mode he was in. Susano'o would dominate Sage Jiraiya.


 * The mere fact that Itachi said himself that if he and Kisame were to fight Jiraiya, they both would be dead pretty much adds to the whole "Jiraiya is stronger". Ignoring the fact that by the mere fact that Pein, who is the leader of the Akatsuki (thus being stronger than Itachi) fought on "equal" terms with Jiraiya tells that Jiraiya is stronger.--TheUltimate3 06:40, 14 April 2008 (EDT)

dude itachi would win, obviously Itachi was talking crazy because him and kisame would beat any one ninja together. Susano'o would dominate sage mode, the frog genjutsu would really not work on Itachi since he could just reverse it, itachis' faster and has better ability as a ninja than jiraiya and would stab him with the sword susano'o uses and seal himawaya for eternity.

remember that Itachi hated Madara, it could be that he reasoned that they will both die if they battled Jiraiya so as to have a reason to save the capture of the kyuubi for last,thus delaying Tobis' rise to power.


 * Jiraiya is stronger than Itachi, who is weaker than Madara. Jiraiya is weaker than Madara, but stronger than Pein. Pein only won because he used all six of his bodies. Rasengan Master 00:05, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

If Pein won than he is stronger than jiraiya and sage mode doesn't cut it when it comes to fighting multiple opponents which Susano'o does. Remember how Orochimaru finally resurfaced outta Sasuke and Itachi totally whooped his ass. Jiraiya could never do that. Tsukuyomi would work on Jiraiya, Amaterasu would work on Jiraiya, and Susano'o would make him scream. Sage mode would lose to any mangekyou jutsu so therefore Jiraiya would lose. Susanoo could beat at least 5 outta the 6 bodies of pein.

Itachi's Power
I was reading the Itachi article and saw some false info. in it. We don't know if Itachi is the strongest genjutsu user in Naruto, Tsukuyomi is not the strongest genjutsu in Naruto, and Amaterasu and Susano'o aren't the strongest ninjutsu. Keep in mind that Itachi isn't the strongest character in Naruto.


 * Of course he isn't, Naruto is. Hence "Naruto". That being said, I think it was better to say "best genjutsu user seen so far" which is far more accurate. And I got rid of the strongest genjutsu/ninjutsu stuff because to me it sounded like hearsay. --TheUltimate3 01:06, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

just as what zetsu implied, his left eye holds the most powerful genjutsu, and the right holds the most powerful ninjutsu...


 * It's difficult to say whether or not they're the most powerful. Example: Obviously, in a contest of direct damage, the Rasenshuriken is better than Amaterasu, as it attacks every cell in the body at once. But, if the comparison is for a wider, longer-lasting effect, Amaterasu wins. Also note that while the Rasenshuriken deals more direct damage, it can be evaded, while Amaterasu follows one's line-of-sight and is not hampered by the fact that Rasenshuriken must be held by hand to be used.


 * Now Tsukuyomi. Does the definition 'most powerful genjutsu' refer to how easily it can be broken, what it's effects are, or how deadly it is? Tsukuyomi, like Amaterasu, is the most powerful in some ways. It is an excellent torture genjutsu, but it's not great to cover an escape, like Itachi's 'crow' genjutsu (cant remember name), since eye contact is needed. It doesn't deal actual damage, but gives an opportunity for attack. If you look at the definition of genjutsu, it is a technique that utilizes one of the 5 senses to decieve an enemy. Tsukuyomi uses sight, and Tayuya's uses sound. Of all genjutsu that use sight as a focal point for their effect, it is the most powerful.


 * I will not comment greatly on Susano'o, as we have only witnissed it once. Susano'o is not strictly a jutsu itself, more like a jutsu that uses jutsu. It has an unbreakable genjutsu, and very powerful ninjutsu. Susano'o is the most powerful combination between gen- and ninjutsu, though I'm not convinced it is the most powerful, for if it was, Madara would have been killed, and Itachi still alive. --Sorry for the extra long comment-- Rasengan Master 23:56, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I think its really obvious that tsukuyumi is the most powerful genjutsu yet seen. Some say it can be dispelled by someone who also has the sharingan as it lasts for only a few seconds, just as kakashi remarked during their confrontation with the Itachi clone togehter with chiyo at the gaara rescue arc. As for your comparison between amaterasu and rasenshuriken, just remember that the latter destroys all body cells while amaterasu will disintegrate almost anything. The crow genjutsu is known as ephemeral. In some media's,Itachi is seen casting both amatersu and tsukuyumi by just pointing a finger. the opponent is first caught in a tsukuyumi dimension, then burned with amaterasu within the said dimension.im not sure though if this is acceptable as it hasnt been seen in the series.

Dude, Tsukuyomi is the strongest genjutsu in that only people with the same blood as itachi can break it( uhh thats just Sasuke). Amaterasu is pound for pound the most damaging move and if naruto did RaisenShuriken and jumped through an amaterasu to use it he would burn and the jutsu would also burn. Susanoo is by far the best ability we've seen, for god's sake it blocked a lightning bolt and if it ccan do that than it can block any thing in Naruto. Susanoo's sword beat Orochimaru literally 8 seconds after he resurfaced at full power and yes he was recharged and ready to go. Nobody couuld ever beat Orochimaru like that, except for Itachi.

Itachi's Spare Eyes
I don't think that Itachi missed when he was trying to take Sasuke's eyes. If you saw the Valley of the End battle of Naruto and Sasuke, Sasuke's flashbacks of him and Itachi showed that he often poked him on the forehead. If you look closely, Itachi smiles before he pokes him on the head, just like when they were younger. I think Itachi might have realized that he would rather go blind then become like Madara Uchiha. Rasengan Master 04:19, 23 March 2008 (UTC)Rasengan Master]]


 * I think Itachi is good. You're right. I think he meant to poke Sasuke on the forehead, and didn't he whisper something into Sasuke's ear? --QF 744 04:22, 5 April 2008 (UTC)QF 744]]

Yeah he did. It was probably some huge secret if Sasuke's reaction is anything to go by. I mean think about it; if Itachi wanted to steal Sasuke's eyes in the first place, why didn't he do it when they were after Naruto and knocked Sasuke out? He could've had them there, but chose to leave instead. Now why, I ask you, would someone whose greatest ambition is supposed to be to obtain the Eternal Mangekyo choose to not recieve it at the earliest point possible? He wouldn't...unless he didn't really want to take Sasuke's eyes. Thoughts anyone?Rasengan Master 23:41, 10 April 2008 (UTC)


 * That's a beautiful thought, but I think Itachi realized that he was already dead so he decided to go out on a cool note. But who knows (until Kishi speaks on it) maybe it was his humanity reasserting itself. Now is there any special reason why I can't edit this article. For whoever is able to edit it though in his technique list in the table please change Shadow Clone Explosion to the link for Clone Great Explosion.Rayfire 17:04, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

OH NO!!! Itachi's dead!!! Just read Chapter 395, Zetsu says he died...Hey wait a minute...There is no possible way that Itachi could be killed by Sasuke, I mean Itachi was an ANBU captain when Sasuke was still in the Academy! By the way, Sasuke totally cheated; I mean, he absorbed Orochimaru andused the Curse Seal. So not fair. I hope Naruto kicks Sasuke's ass.Rasengan Master 08:17, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Well considering Itachi's character, he was aiming for the eyes. I'd smile too if I was "this" close to taking what's mine. From many sources I've read he was just about blind already. I have serious doubts that after all that, after murdering his own parents, learning that the entire Uchiha clan was pretty much a group of sibling killers, and beating the ever loving crap out of his brother, that he all of a sudden would realize that he made a mistake.

And on a side note, Sasuke didn't cheat, because Sasuke barely won. The only reason he won was because Itachi was injured BEFORE the fight even started, and then Mangekyo's himself to blindness, and then used two jutsus that drain most of his chakra. By the time Susano'o was released there is a good chance he was simply running on fumes.--TheUltimate3 10:18, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I see it like this: the mangekyo just allows more jutsu, it's vision isn't necessarily better than the regular Sharingan. Coupled with the fact that Itachi was nearly blind to start with and was obviously injured before they began, Itachi was already at a disadvantage. With Sasuke utilizing both the absorbed powers of Orochimaru and the Curse Seal, it was a totally unfair fight. Rasengan Master 02:35, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Yep.You hit the nail on the head.--TheUltimate3 10:18, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I think Sasuke and Itachi are equals. The fight was completely fair. The reason Itachi died and Sasuke passed out is probably because of overuse of their power. He probably ran out the same time Sasuke did. I think the only reason Sasuke lived is because that power he used was Orochimaru's, and Itachi's strength all belonged to him. By the way, there are people stronger than Itachi, like Pein, Madara, Zetsu, Orochimaru, Minato and Jiraiya. He's not a god. Also, is he really evil, or is he just pretending? There's supposed to be some secret about him. Also, is Orochimaru dead, because I thought he was alive in Kabuto. Maybe one part of him was left in Sasuke, and the other is inside Kabuto.


 * But when you think about it, they weren't fighting on completely equal terms. For the most part, Sasuke wasn't in pain, Itachi it appeared was 1) Going blind 2) Injured. Sasuke however was uninjured, increased healing, Cursed Seal, and Orochimaru's stupidly timed "escape". And of course there are people stronger than Itachi. I wouldn't say Zetsu is, only because we've only seen him as the Tracker-nin of the Akatsuki, and therefore might not be the fighting type. Other than that its obvious Pein is stronger as he's the leader, and Madara is an obvious. Orochimaru is an obvious not only because he not only failed to take his body, (twice) he had to target the younger weaker brother to get the Sharingan. And both Minato and Jiraiya are dead so they don't count. --TheUltimate3 10:18, 5 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Itachi is definately stronger than Orochimaru... but anyway, I believe that, even in his injured and weakened state (he was probably at like only half strength), Itachi would have killed Sasuke if he didn't use the Curse mark or Orochimaru's assimilated power. Furthermore, if Itachi had been at full strength when he and Sasuke fought, he would have beaten Sasuke even if Sasuke utilized the curse seal and Orochimaru's power.  I think that Itachi was clearly the stronger shinobi at full strength, he was just inconvenienced with a fight with his full-powered little brother in a debilitated state.  Sasuke might be stronger than Itachi was at that age though...--Ikijime Koorimusha 18:48, 5 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Still, we didn't see the full fight between Itachi and Orochimaru. All the other cues say Itachi is weaker. Plus, I think Itachi just brushed off his injuries. And like I said before, Sasuke said Orochimaru was in a weakened state when Sasuke fought him. That was why he won against Orochimaru. Plus, when Sasuke hits his full potential, he'll be like 8 times stronger than Itachi. --QF 744 04:30, 5 April 2008 (UTC)QF 744]]

NOTE: Itachi is far stronger than Orochimaru. Proof? During Itachi's and Orochimaru's confrontation. All that itachi did was cast a simple genjutsu which defeated Orochimaru almost immediately. He was not even forced to use some stronger jutsu's. Second, Orochimaru admitted that taking Itachi's body is a dream bacause he admitted himself to be weaker than Itachi.

Remember that Orochimaru is a fly compared to itachi in terms of power. And remember that during the battle between Jiraiya and Orochimaru, Orochimaru manages to knock Jiraiya unconscious, which was by the way an even fight; Jiraiya  was drugged, and Orochimaru couldn't perform seals. So this leaves us with a fact that Itachi is also stronger than Jiraiya.

Zetsu was in awe with Itachi, meaning he respected his strenght, though, we cannot clarify which is the stronger.

Itachi admitted that Madara is the most powerful Uchiha, though his goal was to take Sasukes eye and replace madara as the most powerful.

Itachi stated that he already used susano-o twice... the second usage was for sasuke, though the first person he used it on is not known. Though it is safe to say that the person he used it on must be really strong. Could be madara, or pein, or minato.


 * Remember though, that during Itachi and Kisame's confrentation with Jiraya, Itachi said that even if he and Kisame fought Jiraya together, they both might end up dead. This shows that even Itachi himself fears Jiraya and considers him a rival in power.  Jiraya is stronger than Orochimaru, especially because he has Sage mode.  Though it is all speculation, still, I think Jiraya is above Orochimaru (in that fight you mentioned, Jiraya was poisoned, not just drugged, and Orochimaru still had use of his legs, plus he could still swing his arms around, and being hit with dead-weight arms is very painful and debilitating).  Still, Itachi is admittedly very powerful. --Ikijime Koorimusha 20:00, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Sasuke is still weaker than Orochimaru, because he said Orochimaru was in a weakened state when Sasuke battled him, and Sasuke still couldn't defeat him. If he was stronger than Orochimaru, he wouldn't have waited until Orochimaru was sick to kill him. I think Itachi is weaker than Jiraiya. In Jiraiya's normal form, Itachi and Jiraiya are probably equals, but with Sage Mode, Itachi is weaker. With Sage Mode, Jiraiya could fight on equal footing with Pein. Still, I believe Orochimaru is stronger than Itachi and Jiraiya. I mean, he fought on equal footing with the Four-Tailed Naruto while his body was in a weakened condition (he commented that his current body was at its limit, and couldn't hold his full power). When Orochimaru claimed Itachi was stronger than him, he had his arms sealed. He was in pain, and he couldn't use his strongest techniques. He was useless. Plus, we only saw a little bit of the fight between Itachi and Orochimaru. We don't know what else happened. --QF 744 09:30 P.M., 8 April 2008 (UTC)QF 744]]


 * your in denial. all of his fight with itachi was seen and orochimaru was easily beaten. and your itachi<jiraiya<orochimaru theory is stupid. paper is stronger then rock and rock is stronger then scissors. with your resoning paper is stronger then everything but it is actually weaker then scissors. its the same with itachi jiraiya nad orochimaru. all your attempts to make orochimaru seem strongest are flawed and you know it.
 * You're very rude. --QF 744 07:00 P.M., 14 April 2008 (UTC)QF 744]]
 * Please do not insult other users to make a point. Talk pages are for discussing ways to improve an article, calling another user's argument "stupid" and provoking them does not contribute to positive discussion and baits flamewars. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Apr 9, 2008 @ 07:14 (UTC)
 * While it is not good to call something stupid, QFs argument is flawed. Orochimaru was defeated by Itachi, plain and simple and was because Orochimaru was weaker than Itachi, he targeted his younger weaker brother for the Sharingan. That much is fact. Itachi and Kisame both noted that they would probably die fighting Jiraiya because he was able to fight on the same league as their boss Pein. As shown when Jiraiya was able to survive as long as he did against all Six of him. And I wouldn't call the Four-Tailed Naruto fight against Orochimaru as a testament to his skill more over than Orochimaru's plain resilience. Look at the fight, and most of Orochimaru's fights, he's able to get the crap beat out of him pretty badly and still you know, come back for more. In his fight with the Four-Tailed Naruto, Naruto/demon fox was clearly on top for the entire fight (as technically he couldn't get hurt with that chakra shield) yet Orochimaru being as resilient as ever was able to turn every time he got beat back to his advantage. My opinion; Itachi was stronger than Orochimaru. Orochimaru weaker than Jiraiya (with Sage Mode), and and therefore Jiraiya with Sage Mode is stronger than Itachi.--TheUltimate3 10:47, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
 * jiriaya loosing to orochimaru doesnt really mean anything since naruto lost to sasuke at the final valley. naruto didn't lose because he was weaeker but because he didnt want to beat sasuke. its the same with jiraiya. his battle with oro wasnt really shown and he thought of him as a friend then so it could be the same reason naruto lost. this isnt dbz where everyoner has a power level over 9000 and peoples strength is only determined by weather they win or lose.


 * Wow, that last comment was very coherent and made alot of sense. I've thought about that before, but never knew how to put it into words.  Good point. You made a good point too, TheUltimate, and backed up what you and I both seem to believe with solid evidence. --Ikijime Koorimusha 20:32, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

according to the spoiler of manga chapter 397 "your borther's admireable way protecting you... Sasuke..." Now, if this is authentic, we can say that during the return of Itachi to Konoha, he took Jiraiya's presence as a reason to save the capture of naruto for last, which was even questioned by Kisame, "but you?.." Itachi in one of the later manga was shown to have a hatred for madara, going so far as calling him "a pathetic shell of his former self"... He might have wanted to delay the kyuubi's capture to prevent madara's sharingan from getting more powerful. We can say that he wanted to kill Madara. But a biju enhanced sharingan may be far too powerful. When Jiraiya stated that 'you two will die today", Itachi replied "we'll see about that". He could have taken Jiraiya, but he timed their arrival with Jiraiya's shadow lurking around, cast a genjutsu that he knows will be dispelled by someone like Jiraiya, wasted 2 tsukuyumi on 2 worthless opponents thus wasted precious chakra despite knowing that a legendary leaf ninja was around, all just to have a reason to live konoha, thus, preventing madara to get his hands on the nine tails. Now, this is all speculation, and im not saying i'll defend this idea...im just sharing...


 * First of all, as the starter of this topic I just want to thank all of the commenters for contributing their thoughts and opinions, you've really made my little three-sentence blurb into a real intellectual discussion. Second, I'd like to thank everyone thats tried to keep the comments clean. Just to pass the time, I have come up with a list of things I hope most of us can agree on.

1. Itachi stronger than Sasuke

2. Orochimaru stronger than Sasuke when at full strength

3. Naruto stronger than Sasuke but doesn't want to kill him

4. Jiraiya stronger than Orochimaru

5. Jiraiya stronger than Itachi when using Sage mode

6. Jiraiya stronger than Pein, only lost because Pein used all six bodies

7. Naruto, in 4-tail mode stronger than Orochimaru. He only got away by using Triple Rashoman

8. Jiraiya was only almost killed by Naruto because he didn't want to hurt him

9. Itachi, for some reason, doesn't really want to kill Sasuke

10. Tobi is obviously Madara

11. Itachi hates what Madara has become, wants to kill him

If anyone disagrees with the list or wants to add something to it, please comment. Rasengan Master 00:19, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Itachi didn't want to kill Sasuke and steal his eyes until Sasuke gains the mangekyo. To gain the eternal mangekyo, I believe, the eyes that are stole must also have obtained mangekyo status, otherwise it won't work.  This is why Itachi didn't steal Sasuke's eyes when Naruto knocked him out, because Sasuke didn't have the mangekyo yet.  This is also why Itachi wants Sasuke to kill his best friend (Naruto), so Sasuke will activate his mangekyo, and then Itachi can steal them.  Sasuke also realizes this, and refuses to kill Naruto in the Valley of the End, denouncing and rejecting the powers that Itachi wanted him to gain, desiring to find his own way to kill Itachi.  Any comments? --Ikijime Koorimusha 00:31, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Ah, but by your logic, Itachi wouldn't have tried to take his eyes at the end of their fight. It would have been useless if they weren't the Mangekyo. If I recall correctly, it was never said that the stolen eyes must have the Mangekyo, just be a close blood-relative, i.e. a brother. If I'm wrong, tell me. But if it's true that both sets needed to be Mangekyo, he wouldn't have given Sasuke a chance to fight him until he had gained the Mangekyo. And Sasuke didn't know the real reason that Itachi wanted him to get the Mangekyo, just that he wanted him to get it. He didn't know anything about the Eternal Mangekyo until he fought Itachi. Rasengan Master 00:47, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Good catch, I had forgotten about that. Still, the whole thing is a bit ambiguous if you ask me.  Hopefully the whole thing will be explained later by a "writer's convenience." --Ikijime Koorimusha 02:32, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I had another little thought--Maybe Itachi made a grab for Sasuke's eyes to make it seem like he still wanted them. What do you think? Rasengan Master 15:12, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Considering Tobi's words I think that's likely, but it could also be that Itachi realised that Sasuke would never achieve Mangekyo Sharingan and if you look at the number of Mangekyo Sharingan Jutsu's Itachi used in the battle he probably would have settled for Sasuke's normal Sharingan's and his own Mangekyo power instead of going almost completely blind.Sasaku-sama 16:11, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Just read chapter 397!!! Turns out that when Itachi poked him on the forehead, he somehow transferred all his eye techniques to Sasuke. Apparently it was a last ditch effort to ensure that someone could kill Madara and to protect Sasuke. Itachi was good after all!!! On the last page it says Itachi "risked everything to protect the shinobi world, the Leaf Village...and most of all, his little brother." Maybe this means that Madara forced Itachi to murder the Uchiha or possibly did it himself under a genjutsu. We won't know for another week...the suspense is killing me!!! Hey, do you think that Itachi had been planning this even before he killed Shisui? That he had planned everything up until now? It's speculation, I know...But doesn't it make sense? Itachi made Sasuke hate him to protect him, made him get stronger to eventually kill him, but instead made Sasuke strong enough to protect himself. That could be plausible, or maybe I'm just reading too far into it...Thoughts please? Rasengan Master 21:24, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Dude, awesome. I hadn't read 397 until just yesterday (for some reason, the time displayed on my previous post says it's from today as well, the time table is messed up), and it totally changed my previous thoughts on Itachi and his plans.  I actually reasoned the same exact thing as you did after I read the chapter, you just beat me to the post I guess.  The only thing I think is weird about your reasoning is that Madara forced Itachi to kill Shisui.  I think that Itachi forced himself to kill his best friend by reasoning if he wanted to kill the most evil Uchiha (which is why he denounced the evil ways of his clan), he would have to gain great power, even if he had to kill his best friend, and work with the evil Madara.  Then I think he realized that he couldn't destroy Madara, but his brother, who he realized was more talented, could, if he got stronger through his hate, and if Itachi gave Sasuke his powers.  Of course, this was also done to protect Sasuke, as Madara said.  That's when the rest of your reasoning (which is also what I thought) comes in.  Plus, because of his ultimate sacrifice, I now hold Itachi in a much higher regard.  He was a good guy after all... :') (crying with sadness and happines).  Now he's probably my second favorite character, and all because of chapter 397.  Nice post.  I still don't know why Madara would want Itachi to gain the Mangekyo though... maybe he just wanted someone to carry on his legacy or just kill the rest of the family...  Peace! --Ikijime Koorimusha 22:28, 11 April 2008 (UTC)


 * No offense, but there's no way that Itachi thought Sasuke was more talented than him. I mean, Sasuke barely won. Itachi had been wounded before their fight and was nearly blind; Sasuke, on the other hand, had several advantages. He was fully rested, had Orochimaru's absorbed powers, and the Curse Seal. If any Uchiha could've killed Madara, it would've been Itachi. Rasengan Master 11:39, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * No, no, no, that's not what I meant. I ment that perhaps Itachi thought that Sasuke is stronger than he was at that age, and that he had more potential because of the curse seal, and that, because of all of that, Sasuke could have a chance to kill Madara if he had Itachi's powers too.  I didn't say that Itachi was weaker than Sasuke.  No way!  If you refer to my first post on this page, I stated that the only reason Itachi lost is because he was inconvenienced with a fight with his little brother while in a weakened state, and that if Sasuke hadn't used the Curse Seal and Orochimaru's powers, Itachi would have beaten him in a heartbeat.  Oh, and, no offense taken.  Constructive critisism and (respectful) arguments are what posts are all about!  Peace! --Ikijime Koorimusha 18:29, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Oh, I get it. But I'm still not sure if I agree. I mean, Itachi was in ANBU by fifteen, right? And Itachi is stronger than Kakashi who was a jonin by thirteen. But who knows? You could be right. How are we supposed to know what Itachi really thought? I guess we'll just have to wait 'til chapter 398, which won't be for two weeks. I'm sad... Rasengan Master 20:04, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * And you know how Itachi always has his Sharingan activated? Look at his eyes at the end of the fight; they're almost completely white. I forgot that. That proves how blind he was. Rasengan Master 20:11, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I hadn't noticed that until you mentioned it... I guess that's just another reason Itachi lost, huh? --Ikijime Koorimusha 20:31, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I have disagreements. I say Itachi and Sasuke are equals, since Itachi was forced to push himself past his limit to overpower Sasuke. Plus, I think Itachi just pushed past his injuries, or he wouldn't have used his Mangekyou at all. Orochimaru is stronger than a Four Tailed Naruto simply because he proved evenly matched with Naruto while his body was in a weakened condition. Orochimaru is stronger than Sasuke because Sasuke couldn't even beat Orochimaru even when Orochimaru was weakened, and I think Jiraiya and Pein are evenly matched. --QF 744 07:30 P.M., 14 April 2008 (UTC)QF 744]]


 * Now my comment. Its still up in the air who was in the end stronger, as Itachi was weakened before their fight, so I won't say he's weaker than Sasuke, but I also won't say Sasuke is stronger than him either because we didn't see them fight with Itachi being at full strength. That being said, Itachi most likely stayed in the act until the end, and because he used the Mangekyo Sharingan on Sasuke twice, I don't think he would have a problem using it on him if its to further whatever he was planning. Now to Orochimaru vs the Four-Tailed Naruto. The Four-Tailed was obviously stronger. Case and Point, look at the fight, and look at Orochimaru get all but thrashed. (He was cut in half.) He only survived because of all the freaky modifications to his body and his own resilience. (Most of his fights, he gets the holy crap beaten out of him and he's able to brush it off. Being Resilient does not mean being powerful). Your point on Orochimaru being stronger because Sasuke went at him when he was weak is moot at best. Reason: Because 1) Attacking the weakest prey is ALWAYS a good idea if you don't care about honor (Which Sasuke doesn't), 2) Just because he was attacked because he was in a weakened state doesn't mean Orochimaru was stronger. Its probably likely that Sasuke saw an opening to get his revenge and now realized that Orochimaru has become a liability, and given what Sasuke said to Orochimaru "I'm stronger than you now." I don't think he would have had much problem taking on Orochimaru if the latter had stolen another body. And finally, Pein killed Jiraiya=Pein stronger. End of story.--TheUltimate3 00:49, 15 April 2008 (UTC)


 * I have more disagreements. Orochimaru's Regenration Techniques all depend on his chakra and power. If he's hit by an attack that's too much for him, he'll die. Remember, he said, "Right now, even I would die taking a direct hit from that much chakra." So if he is hit by an attack that's too powerful, his Regeneration Techniques would be useless. Also, Sasuke admitted Orochimaru was weakened when he battled him, and Sasuke still proved no match for him. I still say Jiraiya and Pein are equals since Jiraiya dropped his guard and Pein cut off his arm, preventing him from using the Summoning Technique to bring out more toads to counter Pein's bodies. --QF 744 08:00 P.M., 16 April 2008 (UTC)QF 744]]


 * Hold the damn phone! (Pardon the curse) Pein used all six bodies against one Jiraiya. Anyone can tell you six on one is unfair. Jiraiya killed one of them and held his own against the other five. Could Pein have fought six Jiraiya's? Could anyone?! obviously in one-on-one, Jiraiya kicks Peins' ass every time. Rasengan Master 00:12, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


 * In addition, saying that Sasuke is weaker than Orochimaru is pure speculation with less evidence to back it up than the evidence that TheUltimate has for his argument (which I agree with). Saying that Sasuke was no match for Orochimaru is flat-out untrue, because Sasuke ended up killing him, even in the "dimension" where Orochimaru performs the body transferal, where he (supposedly) had total control.  The evidence is rather compelling... it supports that Sasuke is indeed stronger than Orochimaru.  Peace! --Ikijime Koorimusha 01:43, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I suppose that, at his best before he was cursed by the Hokage, he was probably stronger then Sasuke was when he killed him. Sasuke stated that he was stronger then him in Part 2 and I think it's just one of those instances were it would be bad writing if it weren't true. As for Itachi, I think that whatever wound he had only effected him after the fight drained all his chakra and he was fighting at the best of performance... but in my eyes Itachi won the duel, so I'd say he was the still the stronger Uchiha. Sasaku-sama 10:10, 17 April 2008 (UTC)


 * @ QF: If memory serves me well, chakra (especially raw demon chakra) is dangerous. Very dangerous. Yamato even questioned why Naruto was able to move when he was in the Four-Tailed state. Getting his by such raw chakra would kill ANYBODY, regardless of anything. (Orochimaru survived because most of the blast was used up by the Triple Rashomon. And Sasuke was a match for him as he cut him into several large pieces and managed to defeat him in his own dimension (as Ikijime stated). And a lastly directed at both QF and Rasengan Master: Pein won. In the Shinobi world, your advantage makes you stronger (even a cheap one) At best without the Sharingan, most Uchiha would be average at best. Add the Sharingan and all of a sudden they are shinobi masters. Jiraiya and his Sage Mode, and Pein and his six bodies is no difference. They had advantages and used them and Peins turned out to be better thus stronger.--TheUltimate3 03:42, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

sasuke himself stated that orochimaru was already weak when he killed him. as for sasuke and itachi, itachi won, theoretically. Sasuke was cornered and there was already a trace of fear in his eyes, plus his final trump card was reflected by susano-0'shield, where as itachi has still susano-0 going, but due to unknown injuries prior to their fight, he ran out of chakra and collapsed.

I wouldn't say that Itachi and Sasuke would be average ninja if it weren't for the Sharingan, both graduated at the top of their class before developing it. Fire element is suppose to be very strong, even if you'll never see it hit in the manga/anime. Sasaku-sama 07:12, 18 April 2008 (UTC)


 * @ TheUltimate. I totally agree with you and your point about advantages (cheap or not), but I think the point that QF and Rasengan Master were trying to make is that Jiraya would have won if Pein had fought him with only one body at a time.  I would have to agree with them if that is the point they are making.  You are correct in saying, though, that Pein won, flat out.  Though he had a large advantage, having advantages are what make ninja win in battle.  Just look at how Nartuto uses his Nine-Tail fox advantage--he would probably be mediocre at best if he didn't have (or use) the "Red" chakra. Peace! --Ikijime Koorimusha 20:25, 18 April 2008 (UTC)


 * To-TheUltimate3. There is a difference. Pein was originally one person, Nagato. Somehow, he gained the ability to have power over six bodies. It's like if you were fighting shadow clones that never disappeared. In his normal state, he was a match for one Pein. In Sage mode, he could take on the other five. It's like when Naruto fought Kiba. Could Naruto have won without his Shadow Clones? Or against Mizuki? The whole 'Six Paths of Pein' is a total cheat move. It's like 'Rocket Launcher VS a slingshot' or 'Spirit Bomb VS anything'. Rasengan Master 20:28, 18 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Guys! TOTAL ULTIMATE BRAINSTORM!!! Do you think the way you gain the Mangekyo changes the way it looks? Example: Itachi & Kakashi. Itachi's Mangekyo, which was gained through the murder of his best friend, is completely different than Kakashi's which was gained either through intense training, or realizing that, though indirectly, it was he who caused the death of Obito. Am I crazy? Comment. Rasengan Master 20:49, 18 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Dunno, maybe. Seeing as the process of gaining the Mangekyo is rather ambiguous, you could be right.  I mean, it's a decent hypothesis to say the least, but until we get more information, no one can be sure.  Good insight though.  Peace! --Ikijime Koorimusha 23:36, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

TheUltimateThree: Sasuke esentially admitted that he was weaker than Orochimaru. The only reason Sasuke won is because his Sharingan gave him the advantage against Orochimaru's Living Corpse Reincarnation. Itachi did the same thing and got Orochimaru by surprise. If Orochimaru didn't initiate the process, Sasuke would have likely died. Same for Itachi. That's were Sasuke has an edge, but he's not stronger than Orochimaru. And yes, the Kyuubi Chakra is dangerous, but it's sure not invincible. Four-Tailed Naruto is not stronger than Orochimaru. Plus, if Jiraiya had Summoned more toads, he could have countered Pein's bodies, but he was taken by surprise, lost an arm and couldn't use the Summoning Technique, or many other techniques for that matter. --Unsigned Comment 23:00, 18 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Time for a horribly long post. @Ikijime, yes Pein won with his Six Bodies, he he had fought with only one, he would be at the disadvantage and thus not at his strongest. I get what they are saying too, but saying someone is stronger than the other because one did not use whatever advantage they had, effectively gimping them in combat is more hearsay.


 * @ Rasengan Master, There is technically no difference. He had one body, he Rin'negan that problem out and thus the Six Paths of Pain. He gained his advantage over other ninja, thus his strength. In the end thats the way of the shinobi, as cheap as it is, you have your advantage over your opponents advantage. Pein's six bodies was stronger than Jiraiya's Sage Mode, thus Pein is stronger.


 * @ QF: When in the hell did Sasuke admit he was weaker? When he went to Orochimaru 3 years ago? Again its all about how you live and fight as a shinobi. You don't WANT to fight your opponent when they are at their best. You WANT that advantage. That being said, in the fight between Orochimaru and Sasuke, (which because of the duel factors that Orochimaru was sick and Sasuke was a-ok) Orochimaru was stuck with a Chidori sword through his arms. Suddenly Orochimaru's true form comes out and his a giant snake. Oh my, Sasuke goes cursed seal level 2 and rapes it completely (cut it in several pieces) and then the poison/body transfer. Sasuke Sharingan it down, took over Orochimaru's own realm and turned it against him. Now the only thing that remotely appears to screw Sasuke over his the poison, and that itself could be averted with the right amount of knowledge about snake and poison like jutsus (which training under Orochimaru would most likely give) but because he thrashed Orochimaru badly and survived the fight Sasuke is the strongest. (And I will just ignore how badly Orochimaru got owned by Itachi. Special jutsu or not that was sad.)


 * Did you bother to read/watch the fight? Orochimaru sent out snakes. A WAVE of his arm destroyed them all, then he chases him with his chakra arms. Orochimaru tries to grab it with a snake, which BURNS to ash, (unless your counting, thats twice Orochimaru's attacks failed. And the Four-Tailed didn't even move from his spot.), Orochimaru gets close enough to punch, and a demon fox made a chakra double and cut him IN HALF. Orochimaru reconnects himself using the snakes, and the demon fox fires the chakra sphere (which Orochimaru noted would be instant death of it had a direct hit), blocks it with the Rashomon (and all three was destroyed) flinging Orochimaru into the ground. Orochimaru makes his last step and uses his sword, the same sword he killed the Third with, and it achieves nothing but throwing Naruto back towards teh bridge. The Chakra shield protected him completely. A step by step of the fight, Orochimaru got 1 direct hit on the Four-Tailed form, only 1. Naruto/demon fox 2. From this reasoning the Four-Tailed is stronger.


 * Same with the Pein Jiraiya fight. When the summonings became useless (which they did. You'd know if you paid attention.) what got Jiraiyas arm cut off was the fact that he managed to "kill" the three bodies sent at him. He used Pa and Ma Toad to genjutsu them into a trap and "killed" them. As he walked off, the other three bodies showed up and then next thing we see, Jiraiya has 1 arm cut off an and his fighting 6 Peins. Like I've been saying all this time, Peins advantage was better than Jiraiyas and in that since, Jiraiya was weaker and Pein was stronger. --TheUltimate3 04:37, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

"Somehow, he gained the ability to have power over six bodies." I think that's not really it. Think about. Six bodies, from six different ninja from the various villages are chosen. The guy we see them fighting, quite possibly the only to fight with all six, knew each of them in their previous lives. Chance of one in a thousand I'd say.Sasaku-sama 08:24, 19 April 2008 (UTC)