Talk:Orochimaru

new cursed seal technique
An article for it perhaps? Pretty similar to Danzo's--Elveonora (talk) 14:45, February 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * It can easily be mentioned here. Not sure if an entirely new article is necessary.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 15:00, February 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, that refers purely to mutant-reject seals no jutsu, this is immobilize seal no jutsu.--Elveonora (talk) 15:11, February 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * /shrug. Same thing. He extends neck and puts on seal. What the seal does eh probably depends on what he wants.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 15:16, February 5, 2014 (UTC)

New introductions
I noticed that a large majority of character's intros have been changed completely on the wiki. Personally I feel that the previous introductions were much better compared to these new ones. They were more informative, more specific and more like a personal biography introduction. This new introductions are simply awful... And need to be carefully revised and re-written.

Pecnut (talk) 20:33, February 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Noticed the same thing--Elveonora (talk) 14:44, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Honestly, who on earth changed them? They're so terrible. Pecnut (talk) 15:38, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

Are you saying that Orochimaru's introduction is bad? If you are, then don't make generalisations about all of the intro's. The wikia is an on-going project, so that means of course we arent going to get everything perfect, and there will be some disagreements about the way we deal with certain aspects of it. Instead of complaining and calling ANY part of the wikia bad or "terrible" then actually do what you're supposed to do as an editor and edit it.--NaviiGator (A.K.A.KotoSenju) Talk Page-My Contributions 19:30, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

If this is not an issue with Orochimaru's specifically then you need to start a forum about it.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 19:37, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I'm talking about all the introductions that have been changed. The previous ones were much better, I'm not saying everything has to be perfect but your aim is to make everything better and as informative as possible. I just feel (and I'm sure many others do too) that the previous introductions were much better. If you ask me, I think you should change them back. These new introductions are just plain bad. If it was down to me, I'd keep the old intros but of course I'd be penalised for doing so. Pecnut (talk) 20:33, February 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * The changes were pirmarily done by Snapper2, in an effort to make the introductions, well more like introductions and less like "TL;DR summaries of the entire article". I don't disagree that that to that end, the introductions need work, otherwise why not just actually have a "Summary" section at the top of the pages and leave the intros as "This is X".--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 20:41, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

I want to analyze the old intro:
 * served as the central antagonist for the majority of the series during Part I but later became a secondary antagonist during Part II
 * Out-of-universe, which the MOS and usual practice avoids. Also leads to meaningless discussions about who the "main" antagonist is.
 * Recognised as one of the most powerful ninja Konohagakure ever produced and one of the 
 * Kept in the new.
 * he operated as an Anbu shinobi within the Root faction
 * Relatively new information that has little application to his overall role in the series. Is also some desperate attempt to list his rank, which is more than accomplished by "Sannin".
 * prior to his defection from the village in pursuit of his own self-serving ambitions
 * Kept in the new.
 * Initially sealed away during the battle between Sasuke and Itachi Uchiha by the latter
 * This was added when it was thought he was dead...
 * he was later reconstituted by the former using his own genetic material that was within his successor Kabuto Yakushi and a copy of consciousness he stored within Anko Mitarashi's Cursed Seal of Heaven.
 * ... and this was added when it was revealed it he wasn't dead. So you've got a whole sentence with about seven irrelevant links that take you in a nice circle of Orochimaru being dead but wait no he isn't. And what does this add?

Is the new intro great? I guess not. But it would be better to improve it rather than cling to the problems of the old one. ~SnapperTo 20:36, February 27, 2014 (UTC)

Dual Weild
I remember somewhere it showed a quick flashback pic of orochimaru with two swords strapped to his back in the manga, I don't remember when though. If someone remembers then could it be added to his abilities section? Munchvtec (talk) 16:48, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Chapter 50. --  The Talk Goblin 16:57, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Alright so could it be added? Munchvtec (talk) 17:00, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

I just added it a few minutes ago, could someone put a ref I don't exactly know how? thanks Munchvtec (talk) 17:14, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure if a silhouette from 600+ chapters back is any indication of dual-wielding. We are yet to see him use two blades at once--Elveonora (talk) 17:53, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

his "Sagehood" and related stuff
Okay, I think it should be looked at again. Seelentau, can you please assist us with this, what exactly word by word did Kabuto say? And if Orochimaru isn't a Sage, how come does/did he have Senjutsu chakra and can absorb Senjutsu chakra without side effects? This is the only logical conclusion to me:
 * Orochimaru discovers the cave and trains there
 * He learns Senjutsu
 * Itachi cuts his arm off
 * Orochimaru uses Fushi Tensei for the first time
 * Is left unable to use Senjutsu properly as a consequence of that, with his host body not being strong enough to handle it properly--Elveonora (talk) 17:38, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * He said that Orochimaru found the Ryūchidō but couldn't gain Jūgo's ability due to the wrong body. I don't know where Orochimaru learned Senjutsu, though. Seelentau 愛議 17:53, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * In the anime, when Orochimaru discovers the cave, he's suddenly in pain and about to barf or anything like that. Kabuto explained that Orochimaru's body was simply too weak or not suitable in general to learn sage-stuff, if I recall correctly. Noweeaboohoo (talk) 17:55, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * We should disregard anime in this case and others. @Seel, didn't Kabuto say something sorts of: "even he couldn't become a true sage in the end" ? If yes, couldn't that be interpreted as him having become... an "untrue" Sage? 0_o Imperfect I mean. What do you think about my scenario, is it plausible? The only other possibility I see is that he also has Jugo's cells, but that would be speculation--Elveonora (talk) 18:12, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

If Orochimaru had Jugo's cells in his own body, he would've the body needed to use Senninka and to enter Sage Mode after mastering that body. Everyone who uses Senchakra is an "untrue" sage, only those who can enter Sage Mode are real sages. Seelentau 愛議 19:04, March 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, I guess that if Orochimaru has Jugo's cells, he isn't a Sage but if he doesn't and can absorb natural energy, he is one, but we don't know, so yeah, we don't know.--Elveonora (talk) 19:34, March 8, 2014 (UTC)

I find it strange that you think someone can "un-become a Sage", because that is exactly what your argument is sounding like. I will agree that Orochimaru's situation is strange, but make to mistake, he's a Sage. Whether he can do it now or not, at one point, Orochimaru mastered senjutsu and became a Sage. That means, regardless of his current body, he still retains that ability. Given Orochimaru current host bodies are too weak to enter Sage Mode, but that doesn't mean Orochimaru is not a Sage. The ability also isn't completely lost to Orochimaru either, because Kabuto even said if Orochimaru found a strong enough host body, he could use his Sage Mode. This means, in a situation where you remove his Sage title, and Orochimaru got a stronger body, you would need to "reward" him back with his title. That sounds pointless. Just mark Orochimaru as a Sage, and then mention his current limitations under his abilities, it's that simple. There is no point making this more complicated that it already is. Omega64 (talk) 16:34, March 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * That sounds valid. What do others think? I guess we would need best to know again exactly what Kabuto says word by word, because the meaning and said interpretations vary from translation to translation I see it.

Well, Orochimaru wouldn't be a Sage had he never managed to learn how to absorb natural energy and mold it into senjutsu chakra, which we don't know he did is the point, but as I said, I recall Kabuto's dialogue suggesting he did... and if that's true and his inability to use Sage Mode is just temporary, one simply can't "unbecome" something.--Elveonora (talk) 21:35, March 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm on the fence with this one. No one denies that Orochimaru can use Senjutsu. But he's been deliberately stated to not have a body capable of Sage Mode. Its not a temporary thing like you suggest, Elve. You either have a body that can do it, or you don't. He doesn't. That's just a fact. Kabuto's dialogue only insinuates that he tried to use it and failed. Where you're getting that he was successful is over my head. Could he potentially steal a body that has such a capability? Sure. That's why he was grooming Sasuke, Kimimaru, and others capable of using the curse mark, to be his new host, but until he takes one of them, he is still unable to use Sage Mode. This is (along with other reasoning, which I am not willing to debate here) why Senjutsu cannot equate to being in the use of Sage Mode. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 05:58, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

I think it has to do with the fact only people with "extremely large reserves of chakra" can use sage mode such as Jiraiya and Naruto, who both are 5th tier in stamina/chakra reserves. Orochimaru is only 3.5th tier himself, I think by body they mean the fact he just simply doesn't have enough chakra/stamina to even enter Sage Mode himself. He needs a body that has massive stamina/chakra. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 09:29, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

Guys, you misunderstand the manga. Kabutos words about Orochimaru's wrong body refer to Jugo's body, not to some Fushi Tensei related stuff. You need that special body to master Senninka and enter Sage Mode at the Ryuchido, but Orochimaru didn't have that body. Seelentau 愛議 09:46, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Can you word by word post the whole dialogue past the part of Kabuto stating nature to be his friend with an arm sticking outta a snake's mouth? And I don't think it's relevant what kind of body we are talking about, the topic isn't about Sage Mode, but Sage status. What defines a Sage? You say Sage Mode, but then say Pa a Ma can't use Sage Mode, yet they are Sages, therefore knowing how to absorb natural energy without cheating = Sagehood in my opinion.--Elveonora (talk) 11:18, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Isn't the "Sage" status something this Wiki invented? Seelentau 愛議 11:23, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wasn't the title of "Sage" ever accredited to Senjutsu? What you suggest is that Shima and Fukasaku are "Sages" not unlike Sage of Six Paths I get it--Elveonora (talk) 11:28, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Huh? No, not at all. It's just that I never knew "sage" was a title officially taken from the manga. I always thought you guys made it up long ago. Seelentau 愛議 11:32, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

And that's why we seriously need to use references... indeed, there are none for "Sage" explaining what it is and so on--Elveonora (talk) 11:49, March 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * Clarification: Sage was made a "Classification" I believe after Pa said something along the lines that "Naruto was a sage" after he had mastered Sage Mode. Who exactly made the classification, we'll probably never know, but it technically is not real and I think only really used as a way to quickly point out the people that this character can use Sage Mode.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:59, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * If he said that, that means it's a real classification and not made up. Naruto being a Sage could refer to wisdom or something of course (which he doesn't even have), but how likely it is to refer to that rather than Senjutsu mastery anyway? If anyone manages to find the chapter/episode where Pas says this, please reference it.--Elveonora (talk) 12:15, March 10, 2014 (UTC)

Personally, I don't think anyone can give Orochimaru the status of "Sage". Sure he has Sage abilities but he can't enter Sage mode which is basically the cream of the crop of being a sage. For example you can't call someone who is studying for a PhD "Doctor..." Can you? Only until they have achieved that status fully by meeting all the requirements can they be called doctor, regardless of how much knowledge they have. Just because you know some Senjutsu (One technique, two techniques etc.) doesn't automatically mean that you're a sage. Only until you have achieved Sage mode, shows mastering of that area of Senjutsu and the techniques surrounding it.

Another vital point that everyone else is missing is the fact that NEVER ONCE has Orochimaru been referred to as a Sage. We've seen people call Naruto a sage, Jiraiya, Kabuto etc but when has Orochimaru ever been called "Sage" or ever referred to himself as that? So I don't think anyone has the right to call Orochimaru a Sage. Show me where Orochimaru get's called a Sage. Pecnut (talk) 15:46, May 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Using Senjutsu chakra means being in Sage Mode by extension, doesn't it?--Elveonora (talk) 16:08, May 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Also, it's stated in the article that those that can absorb or manipulate senjutsu chakra are known as sages (仙人, sennin). It means that Orochimaru can be considered a sage right? Also, @Pecnut, not only that he's knowledgeable of senjutsu, but he's also able to absorb it. ~IndxcvNovelist (talk 16:28, May 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Orochimaru doesn't have Sage Mode. So lets drop that little crackpot theory right now. Senjutsu, yes, but can we please, for the love of all that is good and holy not start this argument again? Its been argued to the death, using the same evidence and twisting of translations, extensively, four or five times now, and it always ends the same; the camp that believes Orochimaru is a Sage still believes it, and the camp that doesn't also remains unchanged. No new information has come to light, so it'd be a rehash of the same arguments used before, and I, for one, am I in no mood to see them again. Just agree to disagree and be done with it. We've still got another databook coming out (hopefully) once the series wraps up and Orochimaru isn't completely out of the picture yet, so just be patient. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 20:42, May 27, 2014 (UTC)

Different Bodies
I know I'm new to this kind of thing, but don't you guys think that Orochimaru should have a list of the Bodies He's Stolen? It would make a bit more sense than if you just say that he stole a lot of bodies.

--ExyleCage (talk) 19:05, June 9, 2014 (UTC)ExyleCage
 * here--Elveonora (talk) 21:03, June 9, 2014 (UTC)

Mugen Tsukuyomi contradiction
Since Orochimaru is currently in a Zetsu body, why was he affected by it? KILLERBEE479 (talk) 13:53, July 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because even if he is in another body, he still has a mind that can be captured by the genjutsu. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:54, July 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * No one said White Zetsu are immune. Guruguru doesn't seem to have any brain or sensory organs and neither does Black Zetsu--Elveonora (talk) 14:56, July 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * Don't White Zetsu basically need to be immune? They'll be a pretty crappy army if they get caught by the Infinite Tsukuyomi as soon as they get released from the branches. --Atrix471 (talk) 15:01, July 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * The Infinite Tsukuyomi is no longer active--Elveonora (talk) 15:03, July 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh yeah... whoops. Ignore that statement. Atrix471 (talk) 15:04, July 8, 2014 (UTC)

Mokuton
Does Jin no Sho give him a kekkei genkai label?--Elve Talk Page 11:32, November 17, 2014 (UTC)

Bump, checked and Jin no Sho doesn't list Oro as a kekkei genkai user. Maybe we should remove the Mokuton--Elve Talk Page 15:24, November 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes! And we shouldn't give Wood Release to Naruto either. Agree?--Omojuze (talk) 15:26, November 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Anybody else?--Elve Talk Page 15:57, November 19, 2014 (UTC)

So Orochimaru didn't take over a zestsu spore clone in the manga?--Minamoto15 (talk) 21:39, November 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Orochimaru did take over a Zetsu clone in the manga.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg JOA20 21:41, November 19, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, therefore he has Mokuton. Not sure why the db is the end all be all. Don't disregard it because it's great for debunking long time theories that have been made around here, but given it's obvious flaws it shouldn't be the final say. As for Naruto, I agree, at least until we get confirmation from the movie.--Minamoto15 (talk) 22:02, November 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Aside from essentially becoming immortal, the whole point of Orochimaru swapping body's was to obtain the victim's Kekkei genkai, so why wouldn't it be the same for taking over this Zetsu's body and gaining wood release? It has to be a databook mistake. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 22:18, November 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * I would have to agree that, per the body he took over, he does have access to Wood Release. The entire point of his Reincarnation technique was to completely steal the body of the possessed. His last known body was that of a White Zetsu, whom Hashirama even noted was completely made up of his cells. Logic would dictate that, despite the databook, he does have Wood Release.
 * That being said I highly doubt this will convince anyone besides myself and a few others most don't pay much stock to.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 22:59, November 19, 2014 (UTC)

He does have Mokuton, what really pisses me off is that people are taking the fact that some things werent mentioned or some things were left out of the databook as meaning that those things don't exist or are wrong. If the databook says explicitly that so and so does not do or have so and so then ok. Manga and facts say Oro has Mokuton. Stop with the bs and add it back to his page people.

From the databook (translation not by me):
 * 甦った現在の大蛇丸.
 * The current reborn Orochimaru
 * 肉体のほとんどは柱間の細胞で構成されている.
 * Most of his body is made up of cells from Hashirama.

And since Hashirama's cells are the Kekkei Genkai that allows the user to create Wood Release, Orochimaru has it. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:07, November 22, 2014 (UTC)

Picture
Can somebody add a newer picture of Orochi? This is weird someway xD --Keeptfighting (talk) 22:06, December 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't have an issue with it. Shows his face and all. ~• WS7125 [Mod]WindStar7125 Task.svgWindStar7125's Task.svg 22:09, December 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's quite fine, no need to change. — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 22:11, December 11, 2014 (UTC)

Sharingan
Shouldn't the Sharingan be counted among Orochimaru's Kekkei Genkai, he did briefly have it when he took over Sasuke's body during his battle against Itachi.--Neffyarious (talk) 11:13, December 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * …no. Orochimaru manifested himself out of Sasuke's body, he had yet to take over.JOA2011:20, December 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * Actually he did briefly take over, he started converting Sasuke's body into his own, as can be seen in the image on the right, and he overlapped Sasuke's body completely with the Eight Branches. Sasuke was inside the Eight Branches body, he wouldn't have been if Orochimaru hadn't taken over, he was temporarily Orochimaru's new body.--Neffyarious (talk) 15:19, January 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * Bump.--Neffyarious (talk) 12:22, January 23, 2015 (UTC)

Actually the Sharingan cannot be counted as Orochimaru's kekkei Genkai because he did not use it's ability, you can argue why Black Zetsu has one, it's because Black Zetsu used Kamui so it became its' Kekkei Genkai.--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 12:33, January 23, 2015 (UTC)
 * If I recall correctly, we list character's kekkei Genkai as long as we know they have them, even if they are not used. For example. I don't think Naruto used the kekkei Genkai of all of the Tailed Beasts he possessed.--Neffyarious (talk) 03:32, January 24, 2015 (UTC)
 * Orochimaru at no point had control of Sasuke's body. If he did, he would have stayed in the body, not come out to say, "Now I can haz Sasuke bodi." ~SnapperTo 04:43, January 24, 2015 (UTC)

Also no bodily transformation occurs to the host body when Orochimaru transfers. Sasuke wasn't transforming into Orochimaru, the snake eye was there to show Orochimaru's influence, in a similar vein as Naruto having fox eyes when Kurama takes over--Elve Talk Page 10:12, January 24, 2015 (UTC)
 * When Orochimaru takes over a body, one of their eyes always become a snake eye (Gen'yumaru for example). And Orochimaru didn't come out of Sasuke's body, his Jutsu did, he had to be in control to use the Jutsu. It's like how Kurama cannot use a Jutsu from Naruto's body unless he is in control.--Neffyarious (talk) 11:42, January 24, 2015 (UTC)
 * Both eyes do actually, but that's besides the point, my point was it's no bodily transformation, just effect of chakra. And Orochimaru actually did come out his body, the giant white multi-headed snake was Orochimaru's body--Elve Talk Page 13:33, January 24, 2015 (UTC)
 * Sasuke was inside the giant multi-headed snake wasn't he? He wasn't just being dragged along by the neck.--Neffyarious (talk) 03:14, January 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * If Sasuke was inside the snake, then Orochimaru wasn't inside of Sasuke's body but the other way around.--Elve Talk Page 15:51, January 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Orochimaru and his jutsu emerges and is subsequently pulled from Sasuke's neck-region. So, yes, I'd say he was dragged around by the neck. ~SnapperTo 19:24, January 25, 2015 (UTC)

Sasuke was inside the white snake, he was not being dragged along, this can be seen briefly in the anime when Orochimaru is sealed. So if Sasuke's body was inside Orochimaru's, then dosent that mean Orochimaru was using it?--Neffyarious (talk) 05:02, January 26, 2015 (UTC)
 * I feel as though you're ignoring what Orochimaru says in that scene, which I referenced earlier: he says now he can take Sasuke's body, not that he already has. Whatever it is he's doing in that scene he does through Sasuke's body, not with it. ~SnapperTo 05:11, January 26, 2015 (UTC)