Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-30426414-20170602005649/@comment-32177363-20170603002905

Lorenzo VonMT wrote: I find it hard to believe that someone like Itachi can be at the level he is while remainning static in terms of training for so many years. Itachi was a pacifist but that doesn't mean he despised becoming stronger, he just didn't like fighting. If you read the Itachi novels, his goal was to become the strongest ninja in order to use the power he gained to end all conflict. So considering he was still improving his skills before he left the village, theres no reason to believe he still he stopped training after he left since theres nothing hinting to that. I disagree here. Sure there is no evidence suggesting that Itachi did not continue to train after defecting (he definitely fought Kisamé on occasions to train based on Kisamé's remarks when he sparred with Itachi). I am simply saying Itachi did not train nearly as much due to being an Akastuki member who was mainly assigned missions to defeat opponents way below their level or to capture jinchuuriki. This is a grey area for arguing. I will simply say that judging by Itachi's performance against Sasuke he does not have a vast array of jutsu's indicating that he continued to train rigorously and learn new moves. And again, Itachi was easily subduing almost anyone he ran across, because most do not know how to get around his genjutsu or MS abilities, so he was never really challenged enough to become a great tactician, and it showed when he fought people who were on his level and knew how to counter him. The best feat we've seen Itachi do is predict that planetary devastation can be undone by destroying the core through overpowering it. Lorenzo VonMT wrote: Yes, Kakashi has more battle experience but its negligible considering the difference between their experiences in battle is so small. In the part 1 fight, Kakashi's superior battle experience didn't give him an edge against Itachi. Although it helped him discern Itachi's plans, the benefit isn't large enough to consider it an advantage. Theres also nothing indicating Kakashi was more intelligent than Itachi, if anything they're equal. Yes, in part 1 Kakashi's battle experience did not help him because in part 1 Kakashi was not nearly as smart or experienced. As I stated towards the end, War Arc Kakashi is a lot smarter & more experienced than the season 1 Kakashi whom Itachi beat. And considering the feats which Kakashi has pulled in being able to hold his ground against opponents far stronger than him and adapting to different circumstances while Itachi has been shown to struggle anytime he runs up against an opponent who knows how to get around his ninjutsu and mind tricks, I believe there is good reason to make an inference that Kakashi's experience and smartness surpasses Itachi's natural pure calculative capabilities and genjutsu trickery.

Lorenzo VonMT wrote: Itachi didn't have a problem with Guy, he simply warned Kisame not to underestimate him. Remember, Itachi's plan wasn't to annihilate everyone, thats why he ended the fight quicly by using tsukuyomi. Guy's arrival was just going to add more commotion and buy enough time for even more reinforments to arrive which was the last thing Itachi wanted. Genjutsu isn't Itachi's only weapon, his use of taijutsu, ninjutsu and the sharingan make him a formidable enemy. He may not have a large arsenal but its the level at which he uses the tools he has that make him so strong. I agree that Guy did not necessarily give Itachi a problem; however, I do find it odd that as soon as Guy showed up, Itachi told Kisamé to be weary of Guy (even though Kisameé isn't even a Sharigan user), and Itachi soon after opted out the battle, as if he knew that Guy was not going to be an easy opponent for him. Therefore I can infer that Itachi has more trouble with people who are equipped to counter him. Which only makes sense for any ninja. Seeing as War Arc Kakashi knows how to counter him with his weaknesses, and is weary of his genjutsu, I do not see Itachi winning without MS abilities since Kakashi outclasses him in nearly everything else at this point.

Lorenzo VonMT wrote: Kakashi only fought deva and ashura path, he also had Choza, Choji and 2 other ninja helping him. You are correct in this statement; however, my point is that Kakashi can hold his ground against opponents far stronger than him, and you can see towards the end of that fight, before Kakashi got defeated he no longer had any real support whilst on the offensive. He had great tact, an example would be when he almost destroyed the Deva Path, the only thing that stopped him from success was a last minute almighty push. And Pain himself immediately commented saying, "Nice movements, and a wide range of jutsus. I need to kill you so you won't become a nuisance to me later."

Lorenzo VonMT wrote: Actually thats false, Itachi said if he and Jiraiya were to fight each other without kisame, they would both suffer critical damage. Itachi stated, that if he and Jiraiya were to fight each other without Kisame they would both suffer critical damage, true, but he then added that even if he had backup it would not make a difference. Than Kisamé blatantly stated that both he and Itachi put together pale in comparison. This heavily implies that Jiraiya >= Itachi + Kisamé, and that if they fought, the best case scenario would be a tie or stalemate (with or without Kisamé's help). This Jiraiya wasn't even using Sage Mode. My point is that Itachi knows his weaknesses, and even Jiraiya is someone he would not like to risk going head-up against. Kisame also said, "He's in a different league" and Itachi agreed. This all shows that Itachi would rather dodge opponents that know how to avoid his tactics and have a strong diverse arsenal of jutsu's. Itachi is smart but he knows his tact can only help him so much when going up against people well equipped to face him. Hence Itachi is not the untouchable battle genius people like to say he is, he's scared to go up against people who are smart + well equipped to counter him (who wouldn't be?). And War Arc Kakashi fits that criteria. I am not saying it would be an easy fight, but War Arc Kakashi has more tools in his disposal and more than enough experience to counter Itachi's tricks at this point.

Lorenzo VonMT wrote: I don't see how the dogs would close the gap in speed, I never recalled the dogs serving such a function. Moreover, his trackig fang jutsu won't work since Itachi's sharingan can see the dogs' chakras as they're tunneling under his feat.

When I stated the dogs would close the gap in speed, I meant that Itachi's speed advantage would be negligible because the dogs would constantly shout "watch out Kakashi" anytime Itachi tried to pull some sneaky shadow clone speed blitzing tricks. And yes Itachi can see the dogs, but theoretically, if Kakashi is able to get all his dogs out, Itachi will have a lot of trouble tracking & dodging all of the dogs while trying to fight Kakashi's surplus of jutsu's that Itachi might be ill-equipped to counter, all at the same time.

Lorenzo VonMT wrote: This is why I think Itachi would win. It will come down to a battle of ninjutsu and taijutsu, Kakashi has stronger ninjutsu while Itachi has better taijutsu and speed because he was going toe to toe with KCM Naruto while being an edo and fighting Sasuke equally on his death bed. Itachi might not have powerful ninjutsu, but the speed at which he launches his jutsus is a factor that will help him close the gap.

Two times people with the sharingan have failed to read his hand signs in the midst of battle, the first was with Kakashi in part 1 and the second in the Sasuke vs Itachi fight where Itachi managed to create a shadow clone during the shuriken exchange with Sasuke without Sasuke detecting it. In the end, it will be a close fight but Itachi would outlast Kakashi as his sharingan does not consume as much chakra as Kakashi's does. True, Itachi is well known for creating Shadow clones without people knowing, and having insane speed when it comes to weaving hand signals to pull off jutsus. I also agree that Itachi is superior in Taijutsu. However, the edge Itachi holds in taijutsu and speed will not be enough to compensate for his lack of ninjutsu in comparison with War Arc Kakashi; mainly because his taijutsu & speed advantages are minimal since this is War Arc Kakashi who's a 4.5 & 4.5; Itachi is not even a full whole number ahead of him in these two areas anymore. Kakashi knows Itachi is fast, and he knows that Itachi will try to speed blitz and ensnare him. Moreover, by this point Kakashi is experienced with fighting people who are stronger than him, especially if he knows what is coming; he knows how to dodge, and has superior counter jutsus for anything Itachi throws at him. Kakashi's fight against Pain & Kakazu is proof that he can dodge people who are tricky, faster than him, and have a diverse range of vantage points for attacking him, so he should definitely be able to handle Itachi in a 1 v. 1 with no MS abilities allowed.