Talk:White Zetsu Army

Color difference trivia
Would someone mind adding the trivia about the Zetsu clones being white on the color page of chapter 520, while being green in chapter 531?--Red-kun (talk) 10:54, March 10, 2011 (UTC)
 * I just took another look at the color page for 520 and if you look closely you can see a slight green tinge on the white zetsus check it out, also found here in case the link doesn't work/you think it's modified or something. I would add this info to the page but I don't know how to properly reference.
 * On a related note perhaps we could add a color image to the page?--Soul reaper (talk) 14:46, March 14, 2011 (UTC)

I agree, they are definitely green in 520, maybe only a bit lighter than in 531. I tried to add description but Omnibender corrected it writing they were white in 520. One of us must be colour-blind, but I doubt it's really possible to confuse white and green.
 * There is a very clear difference between the colours used. In 531, Zetsu's skin is almost the same colour as his hair. And by the way, I didn't change a thing about the colour description, I just changed spelling. The clones were fist shown being the same colour as Zetsu, and then were shown to be much more green. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:14, April 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * Can you provide an author colouring of the Original White Zetsu? I'm not sure if it even exist, but if you are ok with anime colouring, you'll agree the Original White Zetsu is, well, white. White as this window I'm writing in at the moment. But in 520 his copies, as Soul reaper said before, are with a slight green tinge. Though I agree the colour in 531 is clearly different and much more green.Faust-RSI (talk) 01:02, April 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * Here. This is an a cropping of an image taken from the artbook, the image itself, showing Akatsuki members was a chapter cover somewhere in Part II. The focus of this image is Deidara, but you can clearly see Zetsu on the left. His white part is more towards grey, not at all like the ones seen in those two chapters. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:12, April 23, 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the link! He really looks grey, though it maybe a shadow... But whatever, his colour is clearly different. I think we've reached an agreement in our discussion. But there is still one more question: the article name and article itself states it is White Zetsu Army:
 * 1. If it is reference to colour, we know it's not true any more after Kabuto's strengthening.
 * 2. It is reference to Original White Zetsu, it's still not true. In manga Madara states it was he who created them using bijuu chakra. There are also references to Hashirama and Gedo Mazo, but no direct reference to Original White Zetsu. If we presume Original White Zetsu was also created by Madara, every Zetsu from the army is also created using the similar method. So, everyone is as original as the Original White Zetsu. They are his copies because of the method, but they are not his clones (and we know his clones even look different, most importantly they have only one normal body-half).
 * I suggest the article should be renamed, but I'm not sure what the name should be. Maybe just Zetsu Army? Or green Zetsus? I don't know...Faust-RSI (talk) 14:10, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think there's an issue with the name. They came from the white half of Zetsu ergo the name and I remember the sensor division calling them the white army.--Cerez365™☺ 11:30, April 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I remember it too, that's odd. They called them "white monsters". On the other hand, there is possible explanation: sensors didn't actually see them, they sensed them and just called them as they were told (when Anko's team found them they were still white, so the intel was wrong at the moment HQ get it). The later chapters prove sensors were wrong. And I don't say the article name is entirely wrong, but it is surely confusing.Faust-RSI (talk) 15:51, April 24, 2011 (UTC)

Wood Release
Since it was stated that the White Zetsu's were made from the Wood release and can use a weaker form of it shouldn't it stated that their abilities are Wood Release?

I'm not sure friend, give us some time though we're trying to sort through everything.--Cerez365™ 15:58, June 29, 2011 (UTC)

Fine by me. But it was clearly stated in the manga. P.s Sorry i forgot to sign the first post Darksusanoo (talk) 16:01, June 29, 2011 (UTC)

I think it is listed somewhere in the article already, but we can't add it to the infobox, since it doesn't have a field for kekkei genkai. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:58, June 30, 2011 (UTC)

Background
Added background section according to this ShounenSuki's translation:


 * Sakura: "…It became even more similar to Captain Yamato than at the time of the Five Kage Summit!!" ｢…五影会談の時よりヤマト隊長に近くなってる!!｣
 * Shizune: "In other words… This… This is almost identical to the Shodai Hokage's individual make-up!" 「つまり…これ…初代火影の個人配列とほぼ変われなくなってる…やっぱりそうだったんだ!」
 * Akimichi: "What are you talking about?! What do those white things have to do with the Shodai Hokage?" ｢何の話だ!?この白いのと初代火影が何だって?｣
 * Sakura: "In short, the white guys are copies of the Shodai-sama! Or rather, judging by the numbers, they are moving clone plants, created by cultivating the Shodai-sama's cells and using plants as a medium! They may be weak, but they use Mokuton!" ｢つまりこの白い奴は初代火影様の分身体!というよりこの数からして初代様の細胞を培養し植物を媒体に造ら れた動くクローン植物って事!うすまって弱いけど木遁を使うし!｣
 * Akimichi: "Hmmmm… Hn?! …I don't quite understand…!" ｢ん〰〰〰〰…ん!?…よく分からん…!｣
 * Sakura: "Anyhow… Judging from this data, Captain Yamato is also being used as a power-up for these guys!" ｢とにかく…このデータから見てヤマト隊長もこいつらのパワーアップに利用されているんだ!｣
 * Shizune: "Contact headquarters immediately!" ｢すぐに本部に連絡するよ!｣ Faust-RSI (talk) 07:52, July 19, 2011 (UTC)

Parasite Clone
I think I don't understand - where was it stated they can use parasite clone? Or is it just an assumption because the original Zetsu can? Then it should at leased have "presumed" status.Faust-RSI (talk) 17:16, July 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * It's because they themselves are parasite clones. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:15, July 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * And that is stated where, exactly? All I can find is that Madara created them by cultivating Shodai's cells and using plants as a medium. Parasite Clone is the jutsu of the original White Zetsu. Faust-RSI (talk) 20:24, July 19, 2011 (UTC)
 * No evidence was provided. Tried to change to "presumed" but something is wrong here Faust-RSI (talk) 10:09, July 22, 2011 (UTC)
 * Techniques cannot be presumed.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 13:10, July 22, 2011 (UTC)

white zetsu army gone?
what happen to the white zetsu army?--
 * Last we saw of them was a group of reinforcements confronting the Third Division. Other than that it can be assumed they've all been defeated since everyone's moving towards Naruto.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 16:44, February 8, 2012 (UTC)

then we should edit the page that the white zetsu army all have been defeated.

Image
We should change back to the manga pic, it's impossible to see (or at least distinguish) the Zetsus in the actual one...--Jon Thiago (talk) 02:02, March 18, 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps a small change?
"They also seem to be capable of breathing under water". Since they are part plant, I think this part should be removed and maybe put more as a part of trivia. Something along the lines of, "Due to being infused with different plants, the White Zetsu are capable of breathing under water". Anyone agree? SusanooUnleashed (talk) 09:46, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Disagree. Being able to breath under water has a place in the article, that place being the abilities section, if it has a place, it is un-trivia worthy. Being able to breath underwater just because they have been infused with different plants is just speculation.--Kiriako (talk) 12:36, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Speaking of speculation, how do we know their able to breathe underwater? Its possible, but not directly shown or stated. I think it should go in the trivia section as something along the lines of "it seems as though the clones are capable of breathing underwater".71.71.58.70 (talk) 13:39, September 10, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan

When they Attacked Darui's division, they slowly emerged from the water. They were walking underwater, meaning they didn't drown. --FirePit (talk) 18:19, September 10, 2012 (UTC)

Couldn't they have simply used mayfly to merge with the floor of the underground lake (?). Besides, even if they can (which i highly doubt) wouldn't it more so be a phisiological difference than an ability? Also just so you know they're made from a dead guy's cells and some plants, it would seem more logical to me that they don't need to breathe at all, because some plants are rooted deep underwater, but use physiology and body chemistry to get the necessary oxygen without "breathing".71.71.58.70 (talk) 00:00, September 11, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan

Well a physiological difference IS an ability if it gives you an advantage but what you said may be true, but then it should be changed to "they also don't seem to drown while traveling underwater" but it shouldn't be removed completly. --FirePit (talk) 16:47, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

Background and Similar Entities
The article is currently being written as if the White Zetsu Army includes the early versions of White Zetsu (and the original himself) that were created by Madara. As far as we know, the Army Zetsu clones were just made recently and are unrelated to said creatures. In fact, these Zetsu all share the appearance of the original, as well as his personality (which may mean that the original was involved in their creation). Should a separate page be made to encompass the entire "White Zetsu species" as a whole, so as to avoid confusion?--BeyondRed (talk) 09:07, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

Personaly, I don't find it necessary. --88.70.213.211 (talk) 15:06, September 26, 2012 (UTC)

Looking back, now that we are somewhat more familiar with White Zetsu's species, would it be possible to change this article's title to "artificial humans", since it is a term used in the manga, as apposed to "White Zetsu Army"? The page could be made more general if necessary, to include both the original batch of artificial humans created by Madara and the 100,000 White Zetsu clones created by Obito.--BeyondRed (talk) 18:52, December 22, 2012 (UTC)

As page becomes more and more general, I would personally agree to title's change, adding more specific information, of course.Now title basically contradicts the content. Faust-RSI (talk) 13:27, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

color 2
During Obito's rehabilitation, they were shown as white, so is it far-fetched to say that on chapter 520 cover, they were shown before their Yamato enhancement and that's what later made them green instead of white?--Elveonora (talk) 14:08, June 15, 2013 (UTC)

Bump--Elveonora (talk) 14:08, June 25, 2013 (UTC)

New info
Due to the recent chapter, we know that:
 * White Zetsu is made from the Shinju's chakra (Either chakra from the entity itself or its husk, the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path) altering humans caught in the Infinite Tsukuyomi for a period of time...
 * ...Which means the victims were either sealed with the Ten-Tails' husk in the Moon by Hagoromo or just recreated by the Shinju's empty vessel...
 * ...Which makes them the few beings to have lived in Kaguya and the Shinju's time...
 * ...Therefore the White Zetsu Army was ALWAYS loyal to Kaguya (and were possibly part of a plan to revive her) before Madara discovered them, regardless of him imbuing his will in one of them.

Any objections? WindStar7125 (talk) 16:37, June 4, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125
 * Those aren't the same Zetsu. The Zetsu army was cloned from a single White Zetsu--Elveonora (talk) 16:42, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

Which means that single White Zetsu then was one of the few beings to have lived in Kaguya's time, right? I mean its other half had Kaguya's will, which means either Kaguya's will suddenly came out of nowhere or that original Zetsu had Kaguya's will the entire time. WindStar7125 (talk) 16:56, June 4, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125
 * Still speculation tho, we may find out next week--Elveonora (talk) 17:09, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's better to write "According to Madara, Zetsu army is made form Hashirama's DNA.... whereas according to the Black Zetsu, Zetsu army is made from Shinju's chakra...." or not? — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 17:18, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

Nothing changed. Current Zetsus have nothing to do with those BZ has described.Faust-RSI (talk) 17:57, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

The information about Kaguya's White Zetsu clones and how she created them still needs to be included somewhere though. Is it finally time to make this article into one for the entire White Zetsu "species", rather than just Obito's army of 100,000?--BeyondRed (talk) 18:13, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

Not yet I think. This was created to cover Obito's Zetsu army. That Kaguya at one point had, or intended to have an army can be mentioned as trivia or so, but Kaguya currently does not have an army. She has one in the making, but she doesn't actually have it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:25, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

There are actually 4 types of Zetsus:
 * 1) Madara's, that are made from Hashi's DNA (which grew into Hashi's clone and a small version of God Tree with Lotus flower), using Gedo Mazou as catalyst, i.e. it means Madara's Zetsus=Hashi's DNA+GM chakra
 * 2) Obito's, that are similar to Madara's, but are an enhanced version of them, i.e. Obito's Zetsus=Hashi's DNA+Yamato's DNA+GM chakra+7 bijuus' chakra (!).
 * 3) Original White Zetsu's parasite clones - actual living beings made with a jutsu (like power of creation!).
 * 4) Kaguya's, that are made from actual people chakra (and maybe bodies?)+God Tree. Faust-RSI (talk) 18:56, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

Go see my comment at Talk:Zetsu regarding what we know. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:58, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

wha?..
This page was updated erroneously. The White Zetsu Army indeed were clones of the one White Zetsu that was merged with Black Zetsu and later killed by Sasuke. The only White Zetsu that were mutated humans are those who were hanging on the tree. Also what's with the "leaders" and "members"?--Elveonora (talk) 15:31, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * 'cept those White Zetsu aren't actually clones of the "original". They, like Guruguru and the White Zetsu we all know, were stored inside the Mazo and brought out by Black Zetsu to give the illusion that Obito was merely creating an army of 100,000 Hashi clones. Dunno about the leaders and members thing though. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 16:19, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, the army was specifically stated to have been cloned by Obito. The only WZ that were humans were those 10-20 or how many hanging on the tree--Elveonora (talk) 16:24, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, and the Zetsu were specifically stated to be made by Madara. Until the last two chapters. They are not clones. Keep in mind, Elve, they were also proven, by Sakura and the medical squad, to be genetically exact clones of Hashirama. But they aren't, are they? ;) ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 16:28, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Elve is correct. It was never ever talked about the Zetsu army cloned by Obito, only about those that came from Madara's doing. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:32, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh yes, because that makes so much sense. So they're Hashi clones from Obito (because again, that's what was proven by the Medical Squad), but IT victims from Madara, despite the fact that both used the "Mazo's chakra" to "create" and Black Zetsu manipulated both Madara and Obito. I'm sensing a very big loss for logic here. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 16:35, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * It still never was talked about the WZ army. This is gun-jumping despite knowing nearly nothing about the whole matter and you know that. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:39, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, what I know is that Black Zetsu said it was a fallacy that White Zetsu were created through infusing Hashirama's cells with the Mazo, which is what Obito claimed to do. Black Zetsu said that White Zetsu is the result of his pulling out IT victims from the Mazo giving the illusion that they were created through cloning Hashirama's cells. You're ignoring information because the image from the flashback was back when Madara was doing so, but you ignore the fact that Obito used the same process. And what? Actually got the run on Black Zetsu and suceeded at what Black Zetsu already said was a fallacy? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 16:42, June 30, 2014 (UTC)

And yet, they have Hashirama's DNA. Explain that--Elveonora (talk) 17:07, June 30, 2014 (UTC)

Also Foxie, I'm 100% positive that Obito stated to have been making the army using Tailed Beast chakra, that's completely different to what Madara thought he did.--Elveonora (talk) 17:08, June 30, 2014 (UTC)

I kinda feel responsible for starting this discussion, but really, I don't have my opinion on the issue, because what manga says is ambiguous at best. But White Zetsu Army being clones is STILL a possibility. Because, you know, there are also Parasite Clones original White Zetsu was creating, and they sure weren't human or MT victims. 100000 WZ may be the same.Faust-RSI (talk) 17:26, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Elve isn't thinking whatsoever. Like at all. The original White Zetsu, the one you and Seel praise as the TRUE IT victim (along with all the other "hangers" shown in Madara's flashback) also had Hashirama's DNA proven by the fact that both it and Black Zetsu, using half of its body (see his fight with the Mizukage), could use Hashirama's Wood Release. They ALL have his genetic material because both Madara and Obito infused the Mazo with it. Obito did nothing. This is Black Zetsu's doing, but once again, you willingly ignore inconvenient evidence. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 17:33, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Nowhere it is stated that anyone or anything got infused though. We were only told that Madara cultivated Hashiram's cells in himself using the statue, THAT'S THE BIG problem about them having Hashirama's DNA and Wood Release. For the army's creation, that was definitely Obito's doing, not Black Zetsu's. The only thing Black Zetsu did was pull out the IT victims from the Mazo. Obito used Tailed Beast chakra to clone them and make the army--Elveonora (talk) 17:40, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ten Tailed Fox, right now you are ignoring inconvenient fact about Parasite Clones, or are you claiming they are MT victims, too? Faust-RSI (talk) 17:44, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Foxie, I'm sure somewhere in the manga Obito said: "With 7 Tailed Beasts, 100 000 clones is the best I could do" or something akin to that--Elveonora (talk) 17:46, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Do you even know what "cultivation" means? Obviously not, otherwise you wouldn't be trying to differentiate "cultivated" and "infused". Since I sat through a microbiology class, and since Kishi's definition, for once, matches up with science, I'll enlighten you. A microbiological culture (using cells and DNA) is a way of increasing the number of microbial organisms by letting them reproduce in culture media under controlled conditions. In layman's terms, that means you stick them into something where they'll grow under conditions you want them to. In Obito and Madara's case, they stuck them into the Mazo to use its chakra as the medium, which they thought created the White Zetsu. As it turns out, Black Zetsu was just bringing them out of the Mazo, but as a result of them putting Hashirama's cells into the Mazo, the Zetsu gained Wood Release just like everyone else (Madara, Danzo, Tenzo, and Obito) who infused themselves with Hashirama's genetic material.


 * Secondly, Faust, I love how you assume that Parasite Clones were used, but that's not what was stated. Elve is correct that Tobi claims he clone 100,000 Zetsu using tailed beast chakra, but we now know that to be false. You cannot create White Zetsu without the IT, and only White Zetsu can use Parasite Clones, yet Obito claims it was he (with the assistance of biju chakra and the Mazo) who cloned 100,000 White Zetsu. The point of all this is, Black Zetsu fooled Obito and Madara (and apparently Seelantau, Elevonora, and Faust) into believing it was they who created the Zetsu clones, when all that was happening was that more Zetsu were being pulled out of the Mazo by Black Zetsu himself. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 22:19, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * I was not born yesterday. Don't worry, I know the basics. Cultivation is synonymous with growing something. Culture is an artificially grown tissue. Second, it was stated that the Gedo Mazo served only as a catalyst in the process, not a medium. Correction: Yes you can. Infinite Tsukuyomi isn't what creates White Zetsu, that only puts the victim to sleep. The cocoons do. And no we don't know that to be false, he didn't fool Obito, since Obito personally oversaw the process. Just because a part of story is untrue doesn't mean the entirety of it is. What's hard for comprehension there? So White Zetsu and Obito couldn't have worked together on the army you say?--Elveonora (talk) 23:16, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * So your argument is that Obito personally oversaw the process, but that Madara just sat and stared at a corner for decades waiting for the same thing to happen. You very much need to re-think your positioning on this matter because each point you make contradicts the last in either manga facts or in a rational line of thought. Until then, don't bother making another argument. White Zetsu had no part in his creation or that of any of the other White Zetsu. Kaguya's IT and God: Nativity of a World of Trees created them. Black Zetsu simply brought them out to continue to fool Obito and Madara. That has been clearly established now, and while your theories about Parasite Clones is cute and all, the only thing stated by the manga is that the idea that combining Hashirama's cells and the Mazo's chakra (as directly stated by Black Zetsu) does not create White Zetsu.


 * Edit: I would like to further point out that, in the above sections of this very talk page, Faust disproved his own theories about the White Zetsu Army being Parasite Clones by admitting it was never stated in the manga. Furthermore, he provides Suki-sama's translations of the chapter in which Sakura both states that White Zetsu is a direct clone of Hashirama as well as plants being used as a medium through which they were born. This was proven genetically. The point of all of this, again, is that Kishi is telling us with this new information, that all of the other methods, put forward by the other characters thus far, are wrong, and that Black Zetsu is the sole reason White Zetsu were pulled from the Mazo. It had nothing to do with "Parasite Clones" and no, Obito was not above the same deception used on Madara. Your arguments, Elveonora, are based on personal opinion and conjecture. You have nothing to support them now that this new chapter has shed light on how White Zetsu come about. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 00:15, July 1, 2014 (UTC)

I can't see neither how I disproved my "own theories" nor how you can write all this wall of text from just 1-2 lines of BZ speech. Nothing indicates Obito couldn't cooperate with White Zetsu helping him to create 100 000 Parasite Clones with bijuu chakra instead of usual 5-10 clones. Or he could use White Zetsu's method himself, BECAUSE HE ALSO HAS MOKUTON, and Parasite Clones are just advanced form of Moku Bunshins, spores are advanced form of seeds. There are plenty of possibilities, yet you claim all of them are impossible. Besides, where did I admit manga never stated White Zetsu Army being Parasite Clones? On the contrary, I'm pretty sure manga has directly called them Parasite Clones at least once. Faust-RSI (talk) 05:07, July 1, 2014 (UTC)