Talk:Hiden

Name
What was the actual name of this? Hijutsu or something like that? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:43, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes Hijutsu is correct. Also for those of you who nominated this article for deletion ive fixed it. But the Aburame clan's bugs are not kekkei genkai (read the thing at the bottom of the kekkei genkai article). As such, I have removed the Yamanaka clan from the page. Murtagh4 00:58, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, is not correct. The correct term is  Jutsu. --ShounenSuki 01:43, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Yamanaka
How are their techniques not hidden jutsu? Ino said herself that Pain's mind reading technique and controlling bodies with chakra are like their clans secret techniques. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:14, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Isn't that obvious that? That Pain body that's being controlled by Nagato is from another clan that can also use mind reading techniques! Now, I'm not sure if the Yamanaka Clan isn't the only one who can disturb minds or mind reads. --Rasengan888 17:17, 4 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, Ino never calls her techniques secret and neither does Inoichi. The databooks also don't classify the Yamanaka jutsu as Hiden.
 * Apparently, they simply aren't that secret. --ShounenSuki 18:14, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

What About the Body Switch
Ok I'll admit that the mind reading might not be a hiden jutsu but what bout the body switch or that one jutsu where Inoichi makes a Sand Ninja turn on his own teammate? Those are definitely different than mind reading.
 * No, none of the Yamanaka family's techniques shows so far are considered hiden jutsu. --ShounenSuki (talk 08:34, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique?
I'm not sure if it could be counted as Hiden, but the Uchiha clan mainly use this as a form of coming of age, and noone outside their clan has used it. Annaatar (talk) 15:41, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Some people outside the clan has used Great Fireball Technique, just look at it's page. Jacce | Talk 16:01, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Kakashi has, but he can use just about anything. Annaatar (talk) 16:02, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Aoba Yamashiro, Ebisu & Oki used it to. Besides, Hiden jutsus has no rank, and Great Fireball is C-rank. Jacce | Talk 16:05, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Hiden?
Shouldnt it been Hidden? (i could be wrong.. i dont know japenese or read naruto that intenseley but i would think the english translation is hidden..)
 * No it shouldn't. is a Japanese word meaning "secret," or "mystery". It carries the connotation of something that has been handed down in secret. We use the Japanese word for jutsu categories on this wiki, so it should be "Hiden". --ShounenSuki (talk 22:52, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
 * What about Hijutsu? Couldn't that be translated to Secret techniques or something?
 * Yes and so could, , , , , and probably a lot more words.
 * However, carries the meaning of something being handed down in secret over the generation. --ShounenSuki (talk 08:03, January 18, 2010 (UTC)


 * The argument that "because we use Jutsu we should say Hiden" makes no sense, even the dub says jutsu, so that's perfectly legit. It makes no sense to use a word that has no meaning to mostly English reading users of this wiki who watch the version of Naruto released to English reading countries, unlike the word jutsu. More people read this than just survivors of the filler arc... some haven't even gotten to it yet.--Kiwi Lawyer (talk) 04:51, July 14, 2010 (UTC)

Super Beasts Imitation Picture
would sai's technique count since he is the only that uses itEfresh12 (talk) 00:13, December 7, 2009 (UTC)Efresh12
 * Is it a highly secret technique passed down through the generations within a specific clan or group and, most importantly has it been classified as a Hiden Technique in the databook?
 * Why on Earth would the fact that a technique has only one user be any indication of it being Hiden? Cloak of Invisibility Technique has only one user, but it is not even close to being Hiden. On the other hand, the entire Aburame clan uses the Destruction Bug Host Technique, which is a Hiden jutsu. --ShounenSuki (talk 00:42, December 7, 2009 (UTC)

Clay and Sticky Gold
The databook/fanbook(s) said these series were Hiden Jutsu? --207.81.31.167 (talk) 07:00, April 17, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yes. ~SnapperTo 17:34, April 17, 2010 (UTC)

It's Definitely Hidden Jutsu
I'm making the change.

One-Piece isn't named "wanpisu" that's a mistake not even 4KIDS makes.

The Japanese language borrows many words from the English language to describe that same thing. The Japanese language doesn't have as many sounds though, so when the word is said it sounds different, when translated into English by people who can't see the obvious, it's translated incorrectly.

Hiden-("hee-din") is the incorrect pronunciation of the word "Hidden", Japanese people can't say the i sound correctly, making it sound like "EE"

The source for this "hiden" thing translated the Japanese spelling of an English word wrong, meaning, if you want to change it back, please find a reliable non fan-subbed source to confirm.

Did you honestly think it was a coincidence that the hidden techniques that clans hide from others are called exactly what the Japanese say for "hidden"?

Look at my source for a bunch of Japanese loanwords taken from all sorts of western nations and repeated wrong.

[]

--Kiwi Lawyer (talk) 04:20, July 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * Wan Pīsu (ワンピース) doesn't mean anything in Japanese. Hiden (秘伝) does. Poor comparison. ~SnapperTo 05:18, July 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * You sound like you're being deliberately close minded, did you check the link? it has at least a hundred English words turned Japanese turned back into English incorrectly. I'll list them since you are so determined to not see that the only difference between these words is that one was given one less d when made English again.


 * A Wan Pīsu is a type of dress, strangely, it is identical to a one piece dress. Do you even know what a one piece dress is? I'm sure some Japanese girls do.


 * hiden -hidden
 * aisu kurimu -ice cream
 * noto -note
 * sabisu -service
 * sarada -salad
 * tabako -tobacco (that's more obvious than hiden-hidden)
 * light -raito


 * I got these on an online translating program by randomly putting in western words.
 * chi-zu -cheese
 * pai -pie
 * kisu -kiss


 * There's even a Japanese show called "hiden camera" about pranks filmed on unsuspecting people with hidden cameras, the word is written in the English title as hiden, and it's talking about a HIDDEN CAMERA!


 * You're the hunter that shoots something that walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck and declares it is a new never before seen breed of duck-looking geese.--Kiwi Lawyer (talk) 08:28, July 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * The Japanese word has no relation to the English word hidden. They simply sound alike and have a similar meaning, something that is quite common across all languages. It is pure coincidence. --ShounenSuki (talk 09:30, July 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Proof, Get some. Anyone who claims to have an IQ above 160 should understand that it is virtually impossible these two words were independently created to sound exactly like each other and mean exactly the same thing.


 * Explain the Japanese show "Hiden Camera", did they also independently invent cameras and name them the same thing? or was this a "Camera passed down in secrecy" that they use as a hidden camera?


 * All evidence points to this being just another one of hundreds of loanwords that someone incorrectly translated which stuck, something that actually is common across all languages.


 * How is that "hiden camera" show called in Japanese? Because it sounds awfully much like a simply spelling error. Especially considering that the Japanese word for a hidden camera is.
 * Any way, hiden and hidden do not have the exact same meaning. hidden refers to something concealed from others, whereas hiden refers to something that is passed down to other, albeit only to a very select group.
 * Also, saying it is virtually impossible to have two similar-sounding words with similar meanings without them sharing a common origin is extremely short-sighted and ridiculous, to say the least. You should really read up on you false cognates and, to a lesser extent, false friends.
 * I'll admit that I do not know the exact etymology of the word hiden, but I do know it was in use at least as far back as the eighteenth century, when Japan was still closed off to the outside world and contact with English was almost non-existent. Also, practically all loanwords in Japanese are written in katakana, whereas hiden is always written in kanji. Also, even if there are kanji for a loanword (as is the case in plenty of pre-WWII loanwords) the kanji usually either have meanings that are awkward and distantly related at best (e.g. ), or pronunciations that are not common for the kanji (e.g. ).
 * --ShounenSuki (talk 11:10, July 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * There are 12,000 possible syllables known. Hiden is a two syllable word. the likelyhood should be 144,000,000 to 1 that any two syllable word is the same as another two syllable word, now what are the chances they mean the same thing and have no connection? By the way, it's virtually impossible to win the lottery, the chance of that are 135,145,920 to 1.


 * Please bring proof of the use of hiden in the eighteenth century, or at least why you think this is true?


 * I assume since you also bothered to correct my spelling of "japanese camera" or Kamera, that you think it's relevant. Kamera is obviously camera misspelled because they have nearly identical definitions and nearly identical spelling. Just like Hiden and Hidden.


 * Your definition of "hiden" is "passed down in secrecy", right? well, the definition of "hidden" as an adjective is "concealed from knowledge or exposure; kept secret" anything "passed down in secrecy" is automatically something "concealed from knowledge or exposure; kept secret" and therefor, hidden. Clearly the definitions are identical, so identical that most people will only see a typo and just say "hidden" in their heads and be more right than you.


 * I wonder why "hiden" or "kamera" are not on that wikipedia page you linked when (if you are right) they clearly the greatest of all false cognates, since most of those words were only slightly similar (if you squint... Hard) and almost all had at most only one syllable in common with the other (or just had similar sounding syllables) and the majority meant either I, no who, and, to, he/she, 1-10, and yes which are each in almost every one of the 7,500 spoken languages there are. Since each was made by early man due to its importance, it logically is to be simple. It's easy to imagine these words being said all over the world, after all, there aren't 7500 ways to say one syllable that isn't similar to the rest, and who wants to say something like "j'abberwockyzyzyszxyzHOOthopo'yayoyiyai" whenever the want to say "ya" "why" or "no"? That's why "omg danger! help!" is "AHHHH!!!!" and not something that takes more than half a second to bellow and still understand.


 * There are only 6 words on the list of Japanese terms mistaken for gairaigo and only one is said to be related to English, "chari" which sounds like "chariot" but means bike which is for some reason considered similar enough to a chariot to warrant the creation of a page dedicated to it and 5 words considered close enough for someone to have somehow thought they were related.


 * A word w/ kanji isn't necessarily purely from Japan. In fact, it most likely belongs to China, from which they got the majority (literally) of their words. China, did have contact with people who spoke English before and after the 1700's, especially during WWII where the Japanese killed and raped thousands of Chinese, many who likely tried to "hide" from Japanese people. (note: I'm not speculating that that's how they got it, just saying that it's more probable than them making it completely on their own)


 * Anime is the English word for the Japanese word for the English word "Animation". Except it was spelled wrong by the country who invented it when they heard the people who borrowed the word say it incorrectly.


 * You know, it rather irks me that you keep saying words are misspelled, when they are only transliterated. Any way...


 * I used kamera in my example because I used rōmaji. There is absolutely no doubt that the Japanese word kamera is an English loanword. I didn't mean to imply that I thought it was also a false cognate.


 * Your syllable talk is irrelevant and wrong. There might be many possible syllables, but those are severely restricted by actual use in language. English has a huge number of possible syllables and still only has about 8000 possibilities. Japanese only has a few hundred, at most. Besides, the false cognates list I gave you should already prove that the chance of two similar-sounding words with similar meanings isn't even close to being virtually impossible.
 * Besides, the English language alone has almost a quarter of a million words, without counting conjugations and declensions. With thousands of languages in the world, the chances of having false cognates is rather big, even with your numbers.


 * The reason why hiden isn't on the false cognates list is because it's a very rare word, by the way. It's hardly ever used outside of fiction nowadays. As for my proof the word was already used in the eighteenth century, there is a special way of folding and displaying origami cranes for good luck, which was created in 1797. It is called the and was already called such back then, in a time when the Japanese killed foreigners on sight and destroyed everything related to them. Except for anything Dutch, that is.


 * I would also like to point out that hiden doesn't actually seem to have a Chinese equivalent. At least, none of the Chinese dictionaries I tried recognised it. Your right that many Japanese words are from Chinese origin. When I said loanwords earlier, I was actually referring to loanwords from European languages, since most Japanese do not treat loanwords from Chinese as actual loanwords. My apologies for the confusion. I would like to add, though, that many major dictionaries give a language of origin for non-Chinese loanwords, yet none is ever given for hiden.


 * As for your anime example, that was most likely borrowed from French, not English.


 * Everything points to hiden being a normal Japanese word and not borrowed from English. You have given no proof otherwise, except for your own faulty reasoning. --ShounenSuki (talk 16:25, July 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * There are 12,000 syllables, everyone can say them, some worse than others. just because they aren't mainstream in Japanese doesn't mean they can't use them.


 * Kamera isn't even a word. They took our word for their cameras and our word is camera, if they give us back our word, it's still camera. It's like a name, if my name was "ice cream" and i went to japan, my name would still be "ice cream" any attempt to spell it as "aisu kurimu" would be incorrect. foreign people calling me "aisu kurimu" when they know the word "ice cream" would be saying my name wrong but still, there are babies being names "aisu".


 * Explain why there are only 6 words on the list of Japanese terms mistaken for gairaigo and only one is said to be related to English is more unrelated than anything. Don't tell me the connection between hidden and hiden (they have the same definition) is less powerful than the connection between "chari"(bike) and "chariot" you keep dodging this. It makes little sense that it's purposely not on the false conjugates page and even less sense that it's not on the page about exactly what we are talking about.


 * Either way, is Naruto an animation? or an anime? The Japanese call it our word for animation(though they shorten it) so why would we use their shortened version of our word as a new word, when we already have a word to describe it? a word that is also their word to describe it.


 * This is the world's most astounding false conjugate if you are correct, so why is it not listed anywhere as such? not even in the list of japan's false conjugates confused for loanwords?


 * Also, you are forgetting this wiki's policy of using english words. The dub is calling all sorts of things "hidden jutsu" and since jutsu is the only japanese word they use, as opposed to the non-dub that uses more english words than bleach uses spanish ones. For example, one episode is called "tobi's hidden jutsu" episode titles here are english, this deliberate use of a word that you describe as obscure even in the nation that supposedly created it does nothing to support this wiki and only brings unnecessary confusion, especially when coupled with the widespread use of the term "hidden jutsu" in the dub.


 * Most of the wiki policies are out of date and don't perfectly reflect current practice.
 * And, just to throw this out there, the English manga uses "secret", not "hidden". Even some dub episode [title]s use "secret". ~SnapperTo 18:37, July 14, 2010 (UTC)


 * No language in the world uses every possibly kind of syllable. In fact, seeing how every language in the world uses different definitions of syllables, this would be impossible. This also ties in with phonology. For example, the Chinese and Japanese consider the l and r sounds to be the same, further limiting the number of syllables they can have, as syllables like rin and lin would be considered the same.
 * You also need to learn the difference between spelling and romanisation. Kamera, like aisukurīmu, are romanisations of how the Japanese write these words, which in turn are kanafications of English words. If a Japanese person would call you アイスクリーム, it's most likely because they can't pronounce ice cream.


 * As for that false gairaigo list, it is most likely not that well known. An unknown article gets less updates. It is also a subject with little actual research into it, so there would be little to no third-party references. It's just a list of words that certain editors heard of and thought sounded like a word in another language they knew. I could add hiden and hidden, if you want.


 * Also, Naruto is an animation and an anime. Anime was loaned into the English language with the meaning "animation from Japan". Interesting, since in Japanese use it for every kind of animation, from Miyazaki Hayao to Hanna-Barbera. still, this is actually quite common and I can name a few examples from the top of my head.
 * Also as false cognates go, hiden and hidden aren't that amazing, really. There are far more astounding examples in that list. Seriously, false cognates are a very common occurrence.


 * As for the wiki policies,Snapper2 already explained that. Technique categories like ninjutsu and hiden jutsu are kept in Japanese. Normal technique names are translated. --ShounenSuki (talk 20:07, July 14, 2010 (UTC)

I don't know whether Hiden is taken from the English word or not but often when words from other languages are assigned kanji, the normal pronunciation of the kanji bears no resemblance to the pronunciation used. In this case the kanji 秘 would normally be pronounced 'hi' and 伝 'den'. So 秘伝 would be pronounced hiden. I suppose it could still have been taken from the english but since the kanji means 'secret/mystery' which is similar to the meaning of hidden and the pronunciation has not been changed to fit I think the chances of assigning kanji that happen to have the same pronunciation (roughly) and meaning is unlikely (though, I suppose, not entirely impossible).Racoonone (talk) 11:46, January 14, 2011 (UTC)

You guys should have just said Hiden(秘伝) means Secret Tradition. So Hiden Jutsu would mean Secret Traditional Techniques, right? Maybe that would have shut him/her up sooner. :P --Alexdhamp (talk) 07:28, June 6, 2011 (UTC)

I find it funny how two words in two languages, which are extremely distant in relation to each other on the "language family tree", have roughly the same meaning. Hiden and Hidden, the funny thing is the word "Hidden" spelled in middle English was "Hiden". LOL

A quick google tells me first European-Japanese contact was made during the 16th century. Modern-day English was recognized roughly around 1550 (16th century), oh yeah England was a Colonial power around that time. I guess what I am saying is language can change a lot in a few centuries, symbols for words can be made. Heck, 1/3 of the English vocabulary is made up of French words. How hard is it to believe this Japanese word may have its origin in a Indo-European language. I would love to see the etymology of the Japanese word "hiden".

I like Alexdhamp's proposal, Hiden = Secret Tradition. Let us just put it to rest. --Alastar 89 (talk) 06:59, July 1, 2011 (UTC)

why is it not hidden ?
From a amyoumos user Tomboy

tomboy

First of all, sign your posts. Second, read the fifth and eighth topics in this page. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:31, March 25, 2011 (UTC)

Move?
Should this be moved to "Secret" per this discussion? It would solve the constant Hiden → Hidden switch. ~SnapperTo 19:50, March 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * After actually reading the discussion, I see this was not lumped in to the original proposal. Still, thoughts? ~SnapperTo 19:58, March 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * The problem I have with this is that simply 'secret' isn't a proper translation of hiden. Hiden means 'something that has been (orally) handed down in secret'. Besides, translating hiden means we should also translate senjutsu, juinjutsu, fūinjutsu, and kekkei genkai. —ShounenSuki (talk 20:02, March 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * Though I prefer the anime and dubbed convention of naming (usually), I have to agree with ShounenSuki. Moving this and keeping the others the same would be a double standard. Plus, the translation is clearly not accurate enough, as ShounenSuki has pointed out.Ryne 91 (talk) 20:12, March 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * As I said in one of the other related topics above, perhaps Hiden should be given as Secret Tradition? That way it squeezes in the full meaning that Shounen has shown it to mean? --Alexdhamp (talk) 07:34, June 6, 2011 (UTC)