Talk:Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki

Kekkei Mōra
I don't understand why databook listed him as Kekkei Mōra user, is it because he was a Jinchūriki of Ten-Tails? I thought only Rinne Sharingan fits into this category but it seems that Kaguya's Byakugan can also be said to be a Kekkei Mōra, if it is true then Hagoromo's Rinnegan should be classified as Kekkei Mōra, thoughts?--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 20:43, January 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * Nope, we can't just assume that. Madara and Hagoromo had the same Rinnegan. Nagato and Obito had Madara's Rinnegan, yet they aren't KKM users, are they? So it's unlikely to be because of the Rinnegan.--Elve Talk Page 21:21, January 19, 2015 (UTC)
 * I thought it was because of his TSB... but oh well... speculation for now...
 * -- WindStar7125 (talk | contribs) 21:34, January 19, 2015 (UTC)


 * The problem is that we don't have a clear [or complete] definition of the term "kekkei mora" & no one can make one...we just know it's a brand of jutsu unique to kaguya & whoever has her chakra...we don't what it actually is or does...& unfortunately, up until now the manga hasn't given anything concrete about it...hope the mini series does that...btw, when is it coming exactly...also is there gonna be an otsutsuki gaiden before it...U know...like the kakashi one...a lotta things can be explained there...& sry for going off topic :D --DARK ZERO--talk 22:06, January 19, 2015 (UTC)

I was wondering that may be KKM actually comes from Ten-Tails and because he was Jinchuriki his Rinnegan might have become superior, we don't know the extent of Hagoromo's Rinnegan so we can't compare Madara and Hagoromo's Rinnegan only because they look same in appearance, so just saying that it could be KKM and the reason behind it is that he was Jinchuriki and he could control Ten-Tails, we also know the third databook listed Rinnegan as Kekkei Genkai but only the fourth DB listed Hagoromo's Rinnegan as Kekkei Mora making it as an exception, does anybody know what the databook is saying about this? may be we can ignore this as it wasn't explained in manga.--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 13:51, February 3, 2015 (UTC)

Rinnegan Kekkei Genkai
Jin no Sho lists him as Kekkei Mora user, but not Kekkei Genkai, what do?--Elve Talk Page 13:33, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Accepting it and moving on isn't a viable option? • Seelentau 愛 議 15:09, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Not really if we want consistency and facts.--Elve Talk Page 16:14, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Considering other mistakes that made it into the book, for example, Danzo not being marked as having a summon, I believe this is clearly just a mistake. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:42, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * What about Kaguya's Byakugan and Shikotsumyaku? Both are listed as Kekkei Mora, she doesn't have a Kekkei Genkai symbol either.--Elve Talk Page 16:45, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

So when exactly are we gonna just right off that damned book if it's so littered with mistakes?--TheUltimate3 (talk) 16:46, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Why do you automatically assume this to be a mistake?--Elve Talk Page 16:47, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Kaguya's All Killing Ash Bones is superior and stronger version of Shikotsumyaku and it is already listed as Kekkei Mora so no need to list Shikotsumyaku--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 16:50, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Wha-.../WalksOutOfRoom--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 16:51, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * It's not in her infobox as kekkei mora nor do we have an article for it. Why don't we just add Shikotsumyaku as kekkei mora to her infobox and change her byakugan to kekkei mora as well and call it a day? Same with Hagoromo and his Rinnegan.--Elve Talk Page 16:54, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Because that would be speculation. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:00, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

The very opposite of that actually, it would be writing down information exactly as provided. If the book says Kaguya has Kekkei Mora and no Kekkei Genkai, then us listing her Byakugan as Kekkei Genkai and her Shikotsumyaku as nothing is us doing it wrong--Elve Talk Page 17:02, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

It was not Shikotsumyaku, she used All Killing Ash Bones so we can't really add this Kekkei Genkai--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 17:04, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * All killing ash bones is name of a technique not name of the bloodline ability behind it. There's no reason to assume hers isn't called Shikotsumyaku, considering her Byakugan is called just that--Elve Talk Page 17:08, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Shikotsumyaku is the name of the kekkei genkai, just like Sharingan. Also, she does not possess the Shikotsumyaku and her Byakugan wasn't called a Kekkei Mora, either. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:10, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Considering Jin no Sho lists her as Kekkei Mora user but not Kekkei Genkai, it was indeed. Not to mention her vacuum palm tech is also Kekkei Mora, likely for the same reason Lightning Transmission is Kekkei Genkai.--Elve Talk Page 17:16, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Danzo wasn't listed as a Kuchiyose user either. Manga > databook. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:18, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * An exclusion that is known to be a mistake is one thing, but assuming something is included by error is speculation. I thought you once said that Kaguya's whole body is a Kekkei Mora, now you are backtracking. Look at her techniques:


 * God: Nativity of a World of Trees = Kekkei Mora, most likely because her Mokuton is Kekkei Mora (and don't start again that bullshit about Ten-Tails having Mokuton but not Kaguya please)
 * All-Killing Ash Bones = Kekkei Mora, because her version of Shikotsumyaku is
 * Amenominaka = Kekkei Mora, because it's used through Rinne Sharingan, which is one
 * Infinite Tsukuyomi = Kekkei Mora, because it's used through Rinne Sharingan, which is one
 * Rabbit Hair Needle = Kekkei Mora, presumably because it's used in conjunction with her Byakugan, pretty much stating it to be one
 * Eighty Gods Vacuum Attack = Kekkei more, hence used with her Byakugan which is one as is obvious to me, just like Hyuga Vacuum Palm attacks are Kekkei Genkai because they are used with their Byakugan which is Kekkei Genkai.--Elve Talk Page 17:58, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

So everything is right and is it correct to list her Byakugan as Kekkei Mora because her whole body is Kekkei Mora then everything is, including her eyes.--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 18:05, February 5, 2015 (UTC)
 * Exactly. And this is exactly why I asked Seelentau if he considers himself a hypocrite. On one hand, he makes a forum thread with: "facts guys, we write what's stated" then he goes off to oppose what's stated because he doesn't like it :-/--Elve Talk Page 19:20, February 5, 2015 (UTC)

Bumping this.--Elve Talk Page 08:59, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Err, I maybe said that Kaguya's whole body is a Kekkei Mora, but that was speculation, not a fact. I can't even remember when I said that, but sorry if that wasn't obvious. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:29, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Well you started this and several editors had their opinion known to be that we should write what's stated and that it's not our job to correct Kishi. Call me crazy, but one of those people was Seelentau.--Elve  Talk Page 16:23, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * And what does that have to do with this? • Seelentau 愛 議 16:53, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Exactly that, listing things as stated? Kaguya and Hagoromo have kekkei mora label and no kekkei genkai one, so it should be reflected as such.--Elve Talk Page 16:55, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Databook made A LOT of mistakes, let's not contradict with the manga. Byakugan and Rinnegan were said to be Kekkei Genkai, so they should stay as that.--Omojuze (talk) 17:03, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

"Not our job to correct mistakes" you guys said. Also there's a difference between correcting known/obvious mistakes, like omitted users, natures etc. and ASSUMING that something was included by mistake. I wholeheartedly doubt that this is a mistake, since as I said above, Kaguya's palm and hair techniques are listed both as Kekkei Mora and both use Byakugan, not sure what more evidence do you need.--Elve Talk Page 17:16, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Well I believe Seelentau was not the one who stated that her whole body is Kekkei Mora according to this it was just our assumption, but as our understanding goes there should be a reason to list Hagoromo's Rinnegan as Kekkei Mora and also Kaguya's techniques are already listed as Kekkei Mora except the Byakugan but we shouldn't be really adding this as it could be wrong, or it may be added as a trivia point, the manga stated her Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball as Kekkei Mora, only the databook lists all of her technique, everything is okay now only Byakugan is the problem.--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 17:19, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Elveonora - Wut? Are you suggesting that a genetic trait can be considered kekkei genkai for one person and kekkei mora for the other, even though the usage, appearance and everything about it known to us is the same? Not only that, Rabbit Hair Needle and Eighty Gods Vacuum Attack only use the Byakugan to ensure that the techniques hit the viral points or something. Byakugan is not needed to perform those techniques, and saying that it is would be speculation. Again, how come a thing that looks the same and has the exact same function be one for one person, and different for the other?--Omojuze (talk) 17:26, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not suggesting anything. The databook lists all her techniques as Kekkei Mora, even those listed with Byakugan and she has no Kekkei Genkai user classification, what is here to be argued about exactly?--Elve Talk Page 17:52, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * None of her techniques are listed with Byakugan (Rabbit Hair Needle is listed, but it shouldn't be because it doesn't require the Byakugan).--Omojuze (talk) 18:00, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * None of the Hyuga Gentle Fist techniques "require" the Byakugan, yet they are listed as Kekkei Genkai because they are used in conjunction with it. Same for Lightning Transmission it doesn't require the Sharingan in order to be cast, it requires it in order to be used effectively. Also just to answer the above, Kaguya's ETSB is Kekkei Mora while the TSB isn't, yet they have the same make-up, so there goes an example.--Elve Talk Page 18:09, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Both sides have valid points in this discussion. However, we do need to ensure we're displaying proper information, so if something is missing which should be present, it should be added. --Sajuuk talk 18:38, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

Well, we presently have listed Kaguya's Byakugan as Kekkei Genkai even though Jin no Sho omits her as a Kekkei Genkai user, while lists her as Kekkei Mora user. Her techniques which are used with Byakugan are also listed as Kekkei Mora. Long story short, her Byakugan should be listed as Kekkei Mora even though we may not like it/it doesn't make sense to us. Factual information > subjective feelings.--Elve Talk Page 18:54, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * so.... what? We just create an article called "Kaguya's Byakugan" and list it as a KKM? Ha. I kid, I kid. Though honestly, Hagoromo listed as a KKM user and not a KKG user complicates things as well... -- WindStar7125 (talk | contribs) 19:02, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * No, we just put Byakugan into "kekkei mora" part of the infobox in Kaguya's case and Rinnegan in Hagoromo's and mention in Byakugan and Rinnegan articles that theirs are somehow Kekkei Mora, that's all.--Elve Talk Page 19:04, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Affirming that Hagoromo's Rinnegan is a KKM? Hell, I did the same with his TSB, but that was rejected by Seelentau as well. -- WindStar7125 (talk | contribs) 19:07, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * TSB isn't listed as Kekkei Mora unless I'm mistaken, only ETSB is so it isn't it.--Elve Talk Page 19:28, February 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Neither is the Rinnegan nor Byakugan. But their users are. Also, the databook stated that Kaguya doesn't have Shikotsumyaku, but that Shikotsumyaku is a derived technique of her ability to manipulate her bone structure (got that from FF-Suzaku, in case you were wondering). -- WindStar7125 (talk | contribs) 19:31, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

But we should call it something. It's genetic yet it isn't in her kekkei part of infobox. That's why I proposed listing her as Kekkei Mora Shikotsumyaku user, since that's better than "Kaguya's bone powers" or something.--Elve Talk Page 20:12, February 7, 2015 (UTC)

Just throwing this out there, but maybe Kekkei Mora is just an inclusive term. It does use inclusive wording. Like, you don't have to say "he's got kekkei mora and kekkei genkai" because just saying "he's got kekkei mora" already tells the whole story. Or maybe, as suggested elsewhere, his traits are kekkei mora because they're a more "pure" version of whatever was passed down to later generations. Frankly, I think it would actually probably be easier to just do what the databooks do and make the infoboxes more ambigious. Add "Kekkei Genkai," "Kekkei Tota," "Kekkei Mora," and "Summoner" to the classification section, like Sage and Jinchuriki (which is what the databook does). Then figure out a different way to list their unique genetic mutations. FF-Suzaku (talk) 15:00, February 8, 2015 (UTC)
 * In the end it would achieve the same thing as I propose and they oppose, Kaguya and Hagoromo would be listed only as Kekkei Mora users.--Elve Talk Page 15:48, February 8, 2015 (UTC)
 * Done, Elveonora. (At least, his Rinnegan is a KKM now, just as DB4 listed him as a KKM user.)  ★   WS7125 [Mod]WindStar7125 Task.svgWindStar7125's Task.svg 23:13, March 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * I thought I had already done that?--Elve Talk Page 20:19, March 2, 2015 (UTC)

Sharingan 2
It was said Indra inherited his father's eyes, but he didn't inherit the Rinnegan, so Hagoromo must have had the Sharingan too?--Elve Talk Page 06:28, July 9, 2015 (UTC)

It wasn't meant to be taken literal, by eyes it meant his dojutsu, the Sharingan, which is a devolved form of Rinnegan. Hagoromo has, in every case, always been depicted with nothing more than Rinnegan, even stated to be born with it I believe. Kaguya's Rinne Sharingan devolved into her son's Rinnegan, which devolved into his son's Sharingan. His Rinnegan is also a Kekkei Mora, not Kekkei Genkai, so I'm sure he always had it. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 06:32, July 9, 2015 (UTC)
 * Who has ever said Rinnegan devolved into Sharingan? Rinne Sharingan devolved into Rinnegan as you say, hence it doesn't make sense. It's more like Rinne Sharingan split into Rinnegan and Sharingan, like sibling doujutsu instead of parent-child doujutsu.--Elve Talk Page 11:12, July 9, 2015 (UTC)
 * He didn't inherit his eyes, he inherited his "eyes". • Seelentau 愛 議 11:41, July 9, 2015 (UTC)
 * Is "eyes" what the manga/databook said or is it just us using "eyes" instead of eyes. So are you saing super powered Sharingan turned into Rinnegan to turn into depowered Sharingan? Makes more sense that Rinne Sharingan split into both. But that again, even if I'm right, that doesn't mean Hagoromo had Sharingan because it might have been recessive genes for him, hmph.--Elve Talk Page 12:38, July 9, 2015 (UTC)
 * "Eyes" is what the manga said. It also said "body" for Asura. Do you really think Asura runs around in Hagoromo's own body? • Seelentau 愛 議 13:00, July 9, 2015 (UTC)

The Rinne Sharingan is the origin of both of Rinnegan and Sharingan, and is superior to them both. Kaguya had Rinne Sharingan, her son had Rinnegan, and her grandson had Sharingan. Basically, the "eyes" got weaker with each generation until Indra had a whole clan of Sharingan using descendants. Hagoromo has the genes for it, or else he couldn't pass it on, but I highly doubt he had it himself. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 15:41, July 9, 2015 (UTC)

Incorrect anime apperiance
Guys who did edits on Hago's apperiance, i think you jumping the gun here: If you look at Hagoromo rinnegan tattoo on his forehead and his hairs in flashback from same shippuden episode(the one about Asura and Indra) or flashback where he was born you will see that he has same red hair color and in Naruto subconscious Hagoromo's apperiance is different because of environment light effect(color filter) here and here  we can see how he really looks like. So this picture that used in Hagoromo's toolbox is incorrect as well as this line "He also had a red (purple in the anime) Rinnegan marking in the centre of his forehead" from apperiance section. ./ Rage gtx (talk) 07:24, July 29, 2015 (UTC)

Infobox Image
In the last, Hagoromo was depicted as he was in the manga, so whats more important, quality or correct depiction? --Sarutobii2 (talk) 01:03, July 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * I think both are important, but the difference in "correct depiction" is nothing compared to the difference in quality in regards to those two pics. The current picture is far better in my opinion.--Mina [[Image:Hatake Symbol.svg|20px]] talk 01:08, July 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * Im fine with either. Just noticed in the current image, Hagoromo is missing a neck and his head is seamlessly floating XD --Sarutobii2 (talk) 01:17, July 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * Holy cow I didn't notice that 'til you brought it up. xD--Mina [[Image:Hatake Symbol.svg|20px]] talk 01:20, July 30, 2015 (UTC)

Coffin Seal
just had this question...if he didn't have it before sealing his mother as shown in chapter 670 page 11 & created it after the sealing, then why does he still have it on his back even though he doesn't have the jubi in him anymore... --DARK ZERO--talk 21:04, August 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * The magatama/Rinnegan thing isn't that technique's seal. It's a symbol of the Six Paths Senjutsu. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:14, August 1, 2015 (UTC)

so then why didn't he have it before sealing his mother? --DARK ZERO--talk 21:17, August 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * Because he didn't have the Six Paths Senjutsu before. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:19, August 1, 2015 (UTC)

whether it's the coffin seal or SPS the question remains the same...why does he still have it after loosing the jubi...& 1 more thing I noticed is that when he was talking about splitting the jubi's chakra the panel was zoomed on this mark...as the 9 tomoe represents the 9 TBs...but if this is the case then he should have had this mark after the splitting...not after the jubi's sealing...& also 1more thing...if I remember correctly zetsu said that not even hagoromo knew that the jubi was shinju+kaguya, but when hagoromo was talking to naruto after the battle of kaguya Vs team 7, he sounded like he knew it way before all of this...he even said how did naruto feel fighting his mother & shit like that...too much inconsistencies :|... --DARK ZERO--talk 21:28, August 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * Don't you think it's plausible that Hogoromo was simply wearing real clothing...? Markings don't appear and disappear from real clothing unless the owner is going in and out of chakra modes. Since I don't see the characteristic chakra "flame" coming off Hagoromo's form I don't think he's in one, therein meaning that those markings are a part of his clothing. --Atrix471 (talk) 21:33, August 1, 2015 (UTC)

but he still has the TSBs & the flight ability :|....he should've lost all of these when he farted the jubi out of him...whether it's the coffin seal or the SPS, he should have lost it...why does he still have it...unless he had it/them from the beginning...but we don't have any proof for that matter except that he HAD the TSB before sealing his mother...donno how many though...not to mention the six paths yang mark which god knows where the hell he got that from or had that too by himself... --DARK ZERO--talk 06:56, September 17, 2015 (UTC)
 * Jinchūriki who have their tailed beast extracted keep some of the powers they had due to the jinchūriki status (see Gaara's sand control). It sounds likely that Hagoromo no longer needs to be the Ten-Tails' jinchūriki in order to use the Six Paths Senjutsu, considering how his chakra was enough to grant Naruto the Six Paths Sage Mode.--JOA2007:26, September 17, 2015 (UTC)
 * Or he got it genetically being a son and all, considering Hamura too had TSB and wasn't jinchuuriki.--Elve Talk Page 10:27, September 17, 2015 (UTC)

Moniker
I know this was already brought up before, but if we're going to use more accurate and consistent translations with the episodes, shouldn't we follow suit with Hagoromo's moniker? What I mean is, shouldn't we use "Sage of Six Paths" rather than "Sage of the Six Paths", since the former is a bit more accurate and consistent? 18:26, December 27, 2015 (UTC)
 * Bump. 19:08, January 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm for it.--JouXIII (talk) 20:26, January 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * My opinion hasn't changed as well. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:31, January 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * OK. I figured we were only using "Sage of the Six Paths" because that's what the English (Crunchyroll, I presume) subs officially use, but those are needless now that we no longer use that even for episode titles in favor of more accurate translations. 23:23, January 16, 2016 (UTC)
 * This is one of those topics that have been around so long I no longer care. Also, if the "the" is being dropped, better ask someone to run a bot. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:17, January 17, 2016 (UTC)

Sure. Will do. 05:47, January 17, 2016 (UTC)

Bit late I realize, but "the", though technically unnecessary per the Japanese, provides clarity to the English. Establishes that "Six Paths" is a thing in itself and not simply the Sage's numerical value of Paths. One concern from the previous discussion was that we don't know what the "Six Paths" are. That's obviously not changed, but we've got enough examples to know it's some kind of subject on its own and we've also not seen evidence of "Five Paths" or etc. ~SnapperTo 18:05, February 6, 2016 (UTC)
 * I actually agree with Snapper2 on the point of removing the word "the" and disagree entirely with the rather arbitrary change which was made with almost no consensus. It may not be necessary in Japanese, but it's part of proper English to use "the" when referring to people's nicknames (I'm pretty sure many of the moniker's used on the wiki use "the" for that reason). As it stands, "Sage of Six Paths" doesn't flow and sounds very abrupt, compared to the more natural flow of "Sage of the Six Paths", but I suspect it won't be changed back any time soon. --SuperSajuuk (talk) 18:15, February 6, 2016 (UTC)

Can We Please
Can we please update this article as well as any article with the latest information regarding Hagoromo's background? He did not create the Moon on his deathbed, we saw a young Hagoromo and Hamura create it together when they used Six Paths - Chibaku Tensei on the Ten-Tails. It's husk became the core of the Moon whilst it's chakra was sealed in Hagoromo making him it's Jinchuriki. Then Hamura left with the rest of the Otsutsuki clan and went to the Moon while Hagoromo stayed on Earth and we all know what happens after that. That is literally the only version of the story that makes sense. Kurama saying he survived extraction because of Gedo Mazou is false because he didn't have it in him at the time for obvious reasons. We need to go by the latest and most logical version of the story. It's been long overdue for this page and any other article that keeps this false interpretation of events to be changed. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 22:19, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

If someone doesn't respond I'll do it myself because the current information is wrong. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 19:27, May 3, 2016 (UTC)
 * Sure, it needs to be update. However, the fakelore version should still be mentioned somewhere in the article, as it was how some of Hagoromo's feats became known. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:06, May 3, 2016 (UTC)
 * Worth noting that aside from Obito's explanation (and the second fanbook repeating it), Toneri in the novelisation of The Last also claims Hagoromo created the moon after the tailed beasts, despite the movie itself showing Hamura standing on the moon while he was young. So we can't frame it as just "Obito was misinformed", it appears to have been a true retcon and should probably be treated as such.--BeyondRed (talk) 00:25, May 4, 2016 (UTC)

It should be mentioned for sure but it's incorrect, what Toneri said is incorrect too unless The Last novel > Manga which clearly isn't true. Either way, the pages should be updated cause the version about Hagoromo making the Moon on his deathbed is false and contradicts what the Manga showed us. Obito, Madara, Kurama, and Toneri are not reliable sources because they were either not around at that time and have distorted view of what happened. Hagoromo and Black Zetsu are the most legit sources for obvious reasons. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 00:58, May 4, 2016 (UTC)
 * Right, totally agree that it needs to be changed. We just need to decide on a consistent way of handling this issue on all the pages it affects (Hagoromo, Ten-Tails, Demonic Statue, etc.) and also what to do about Hagoromo supposedly surviving extraction thanks to the Demonic Statue's life force.--BeyondRed (talk) 02:09, May 4, 2016 (UTC)

Consistent way? Just do it the same on all of the pages by mentioning the actual version of events as well as the folklore version. As for Hagoromo surviving the extraction due to the Gedo Mazou, Kurama must have got it wrong cause it was gone long before then. Kurama was only a baby back then anyway so him having a distorted version of the story isn't that hard to believe. Hagoromo is the ancestor of the Senju and Uzumaki anyway, he should be able to survive the extraction due to his own powerful life-force. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 03:29, May 4, 2016 (UTC)
 * Consistent as in where we present the old version of events, be it in the background or as trivia. As for Kurama, he technically never actually says that Hagoromo survived because of the statue's life force, only heavily implies it. He explains how a Ten-Tails jinchūriki won't die because of its life force and when asked how he knows that, he alludes to Hagoromo. So it could be an indirect way of saying Hagoromo survived because he himself had powerful enough life force, but admittedly it is a stretch.--BeyondRed (talk) 06:18, May 4, 2016 (UTC)

I suggest that folklore/legend/myth version of the events are listed in trivia. Whilst the actual version are listed in the background section of each article. That'd make it consistent and more accurate. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 20:46, May 4, 2016 (UTC) As I am not an experienced editor, I think it'd be best if one of them handled this as there doesn't appear to be any disagreement. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 15:20, May 5, 2016 (UTC) Is this going to be taken care of? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 21:53, May 9, 2016 (UTC)
 * If there are no objections, I'll take a shot at it. Last time I proposed something like this, it sparked a bit of debate over the issue. One of the problems is that, while it seems like a logical conclusion, there's no actual source saying that Hagoromo only had the Ten-Tails' chakra inside him, everything just says he was the jinchūriki. Thus, some theorize he summoned the Ten-Tails out of the moon, sealed it inside himself, then later sent the husk back to the moon before his death. Of course, there's no source for that either.--BeyondRed (talk) 23:05, May 9, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, it's hard to imagine that Kurama would be wrong, but then again, let's see what happened to Kaguya when Naruto and Sasuke used it. The body got sealed and the chakra leaked out, so if it worked the same in both instances, then Hagoromo indeed just had the chakra while the body became the Moon. In that case it's questionable if he ever was a Ten-Tails jinchuuriki.--Elve Talk Page 05:58, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

Like you said, we saw what happened to Kaguya when Naruto and Sasuke used it on her and that is the exact same thing Hagoromo and Hamura did. Proving that the Moon was created then and the Gedou Mazou was sealed away at that point, which overrules anything else any of the other character has said. They created the Moon when they sealed away the Gedou Mazou; and Hagoromo became the Jinchuriki via it's chakra. While Hamura and the rest of the clan departed to the Moon to guard it's body and live there. We saw this happen when they were young too, so this overrules the entire "on his deathbed Hagoromo did" ect. The only thing he could've done on his deathbed that hasn't been retconned is creating the tailed beasts and making Asura his successor before dying. Despite only having the chakra of other tailed beasts, Naruto is still considered the Jinchuriki of them all. This means that even with just the chakra of a tailed beast you can still be classified as a Jinchuriki. I don't see why Hagoromo couldn't be known as the Ten-Tails' Jinchuriki simply for having control over it's chakra too. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 06:07, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

Byakugan
The promo for next week's episode showed that Hagoromo had the Byakugan at a young age. Since it is filler, would we add it to the article as anime only next week? D.Phoenix (talk) 04:30, May 13, 2016 (UTC)
 * If it's really the Byakugan, then yes. However, not all special-looking eyes are dojutsu. So even if his eyes resemble the Hyuga eyes, it doesn't necessarily mean that he has the Byakugan kekkei genkai. I mean, just having the Hyuga eyes doesn't mean one has the Byakugan, hm? • Seelentau 愛 議 07:24, May 13, 2016 (UTC)
 * We wait next week ;-) --Sharingan91 (talk) 07:42, May 13, 2016 (UTC)
 * Hagoromo obviously has a byakugan in the latest episode, white/gray eye with no pupil. All Ohtsutsuki's have byakugan eyes, unless Hagoromo was born with rinnegan, he should have byakugan. --DC52 (talk) 15:43, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * If he has Byakugan, why didn't he use it? he always relied on his brother, the one who uses Byakugan has veins bulged around their eyes, Hagoromo was not seen activating it, so I don't think these are Byakugan but just white eyes.--Mecha Naruto (talk) 15:50, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * They all have white eyes, but that doesn't necessarily mean they all automatically have the Byakugan. If Hagoromo did have the Byakugan, then there wouldn't have been much of a point in Hamura activating his to see things like Haori being wrapped up if Hagoromo could do it himself. Until Hagoromo shows veins around his eyes, I wouldn't suggest adding him as a Byakugan user. 15:51, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * @WindStar7125, Hagoromo's eyes can be seen to be beyond a doubt byakugan, when he uses lightening style. --DC52 (talk) 15:57, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

All Otsutsuki have Byakugan.. but in his case it seems his never actually activated. He activated Sharingan instead.. fully matured. QuakingStar (talk) 15:59, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * That's not a Byakugan. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:00, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * No veins, no Byakugan. Showing me that image doesn't make much of a difference. 16:01, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * I feel I should play devil's advocate here and say that's a Byakugan that just doesn't get activated. Thus far ALL Tennin have Byakugan, every single one so far, Hagoromo just hasn't activated, but white eyes people, that is a Byakugan guys whether you want to accept it or not. Shock Dragoon (talk) 16:07, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Hagoromo's byakugan is similar to Boruto's, no veins. If you watch the episode from @07:00-07:03 you can see Hagoromo's pupil-less white eye gain a byakugan-esque pupil, then fade away. Besides, all Ohtsutsuki are supposed to have the byakugan, if Hagoromo wasn't born with the rinnegan, then he should have a byakugan. --DC52 (talk) 16:10, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * First of all, no illegal links. Second, Boruto's eye wasn't even confirmed to be a Byakugan. Third, even if he has the typical Hyuga eyes, it doesn't mean that he can also use the Byakugan. They're still two different things. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:19, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Hagoromo using Byakugan without a vein implies that he can use Byakugan without any strain which even his mother cannot do and that is just impossible. We don't know how Boruto obtained that Byakugan may be he implanted, or his eyes changed into one, we don't have to jump to conlusions guys. Hagoromo is half Otsutsuki, Gammamaru call them humans may be Hagoromo has his mother's eye but without any power and that is why he is seen using ninjutsu while his brother uses dojutsu, Hagoromo having Byakugan and top of that Sharingan is not possible guys.--Mecha Naruto (talk) 16:28, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

One thing lots of people don't get... the white eye ISN'T Byakugan, it's an alien eye. The veins indicate the doujutsu.--Elve Talk Page 18:47, May 19, 2016 (UTC)


 * Curious of something; if the veins indicate the doujutsu and the white eye means jack, wouldn't Himawari's eyes remained normal when her Byakugan activated?--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 19:01, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * In fact, doesn't the Byakugan itself (as shown on this very Wiki) mean "White Eye" and we are now moving as if the actual "White Eye" means nothing? I mean, we've reached a great deal for a lot of things but this just seems...odd. Even for our very stupid standards.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 19:04, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well Himawari's case seems to imply that... she awoke Byakugan from her normal human eyes, so i would say that only the activated form is Byakugan and the white eye is simply Otsutsuki alien race trait.--Elve Talk Page 19:07, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Fortunately, we'll be able to see Himawari with her Byakugan animated and in colour rather soon, so we'll know for sure then :)--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 19:11, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * By that logic, the Byakugan should be immediately removed from Kinshiki's page. He was never shown to use the Byakugan, but rather was just assumed to have one because of his white eyes. Ten Tailed Fox (Talk) 19:25, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * That wouldn't be too much of a problem to do so then, TTF (Unless it was stated somewhere he had the Byakugan?). The Byakugan is represented by the activation, with the white eye and the veins. 19:28, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * It would be a problem (or wouldn't, depending on your point of view): if the wiki sets this precedent with Hagoromo and Kinshiki, then that means they also have to remove Byakugan from every single Hyūga Clan member who wasn't shown activating their Byakugan, or where their possession of the Byakugan wasn't specifically mentioned by the anime, manga, or databook. Which would be stupid, but that's what's being said in this argument. I do understand the hesitation to add Hagoromo as a user of the Byakugan, but creating more work for the sake of giving the finger to a filler arc that is quite obviously trying to give the impression that Hagoromo had the Byakugan is asinine. Its filler. Slap an anime-only tag on it, mention he was never seen activating it, and be done with it. Ten Tailed Fox (Talk) 19:37, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure both Shikis were said to have the Byakugan. Nice to see you around TTF, btw. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:40, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

Yes of course, they are just normal white eyes, which are similar to normal black eyes of Uchiha, only few possess these Kekkei Genkai to awaken the Byakugan, Tenseigan. Hagoromo was never stated to posses Byakugan, but he was stated to posses Sharingan because Indra was said to posses his father's eyes. Atleast not the veins but something close to activating Byakugan must be shown to accept that he has Byakugan.--Mecha Naruto (talk) 19:42, May 19, 2016 (UTC) ''if the wiki sets this precedent with Hagoromo and Kinshiki, then that means they also have to remove Byakugan from every single Hyūga Clan member who wasn't shown activating their Byakugan, or where their possession of the Byakugan wasn't specifically mentioned by the anime, manga, or databook. Which would be stupid'' Okay. But that would be like saying every Uchiha member automatically has a Sharingan despite us not seeing the Uchiha in question activate it though. Like we're saying here, the activation has to be seen and/or confirmed before a user is added. 19:43, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Hold on, back up a bit: this wiki already does that with the Hyūga. Every single Hyūga is listed as a Byakugan user because it is assumed (literally says that on the Byakugan page) that they are born with the Byakugan. Check them—every Hyūga and Ōtsutsuki are listed as Byakugan users, regardless of whether or not they are ever seen using them (at least the ones with blank-white eyes). Now, because Hagoromo never used his in the episode, and because we've got a few on here that despise everything this filler arc is doing, we're not going to list Hagoromo, even though (as far as the anime is concerned, anyways) his mother had it and his brother had it (yet somehow, I'm supposed to believe he doesn't). It's reaching. Its actually majorly reaching, and going against precedent. That's all I'm trying to point out. Ten Tailed Fox (Talk) 19:47, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * If Hagoromo had the Byakugan, why did he never use it, especially in situations he asked his brother to use it? • Seelentau 愛 議 19:50, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * I actually don't dislike the filler. Except, Hagoromo isn't of the Hyuga clan. The Otsutsuki clan had white eyes before receiving the chakra to activate the Byakugan in the first place. Adding him as a user implies he can somehow activate the Byakugan when he hasn't been shown doing so, and instead his brother activating it on top of that. 19:54, May 19, 2016 (UTC)


 * @Tau: Who knows? He might not have wanted to, he might be a bossy older brother, he might be lazy. I can list a bunch of reasons why he might not have used his own Byakugan. It's filler and, even though I enjoy this filler, I will be the first to admit the writing hasn't been top notch whatsoever. Why did his Sharingan awaken fully matured? Again, no clue. But the anime obviously gave him featureless white eyes, because, like everyone else who has ever had them thus far, he has the Byakugan. If the wiki decides not to list it, that's fine. I totally understand why that decision would be made; all I'm arguing for is that, if Hagoromo is going to be treated this way on such scant evidence, then every other Byakugan user who has never been seen/stated to have activated their eyes needs to be treated the same for consistency's sake.
 * @Windy: Your logic is sound... somewhat. I'm iffy on giving every Hyūga Byakugan simply because they're Hyūga, because that is hypocritical to what you're arguing here; but the filler arc's logic is not so solid and they may have just given him Byakugan because of his mother and brother. We have no idea if the other clan members could use Byakugan before they got chakra because not all of them ate from the divine tree, not to mention we haven't seen any Ōtsutsuki before chakra (unless you count Kaguya in this filler arc, and she was shown using powers before she ate the fruit), so I'm not sure how you can make the argument that their eyes are just naturally white and featureless.
 * Ten Tailed Fox (Talk) 19:57, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Seems hypocritical, doesn't it? But like you said earlier, Hyuga were stated to be born with the Byakugan, no? Uchiha weren't stated to be born with the Sharingan. And that is not necessarily the case with Otsutsuki, who had white eyes before chakra came into the equation. 20:01, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Is there actually a statement anywhere in the anime or manga that Hyūga possess the Byakugan from birth? Because going by Himawari's example, it seems to awaken under certain circumstances just like every other dōjutsu. Though she could be the exception to the rule.--BeyondRed (talk) 20:03, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

It says that on the Byakugan page, according to Ten. I'll double check. 20:05, May 19, 2016 (UTC)


 * There is no such statement. Even the Byakugan page on this very wiki says that it is an assumption that they are born with the Byakugan—there's no real proof. Ten Tailed Fox (Talk) 20:06, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

I swear DB4 made it clear that the Byakugan was present before she ate the Shinju Fruit. TakL had the translations on narutoforums too.. QuakingStar (talk) 20:07, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Jeezus. If I knew Hagoromo possibly having the Byakugan would cause this much of a debate, I would have just said go ahead and add it. 20:09, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's indeed true and Seelentau I think said too that it says so, although I'm not sure how it's relevant to the overall topic.--Elve Talk Page 20:10, May 19, 2016 (UTC)


 * The databook said (p.66-67): In both eyes, Kaguya carried the Byakugan. Eating the fruit of the Shinju awakened the Rinne Sharingan on her forehead. That would seem to suggest she had the Byakugan before the fruit. Ten Tailed Fox (Talk) 20:10, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

両目に”白眼”を宿したカグヤは神樹の実を食べ、額の ”輪廻写輪眼” も開眼.

"In both eyes, Kaguya carried the Byakugan. Eating the fruit of the Shinjyu, she also awakened the "Rinnesharingan" on her forehead." to confirm what he said there. From OD herself. QuakingStar (talk) 20:12, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, if the databook truly says that, there's not much we can do, is there? 20:13, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

How is that relevant though, to the issue of Hagoromo having or not having the Byakugan and if Hyugas are born with it or not?--Elve Talk Page 20:16, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * It means Aliens naturally have Byakugan and there no just white eyes without chakra variant. Rage gtx (talk) 20:17, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

OD Clarifies

"Np~ No, it was all one sentence, but I had to split it up in order to make sense in English. Meaning that by eating the Shinjyu fruit, she obtained the both the Rinnesharingan and Byakugan (at the same time). But if I kept the format, it goes: 両目に”白眼”を宿したカグヤは神樹の実を食べ、額の ”輪廻写輪眼” も開眼. Kaguya, who carried the Byakugan in both eyes, ate the fruit of the Shinjyu, (and) also awakened the "Rinnesharingan" on her forehead. It's unclear if it truly meant that she had it prior. But I assume not, since the Byakugan is a product of chakra in order to see the chakra point system...she would have no use for it because there would be no chakra to see in the first place before she ate the fruit. Unless she used the Byakugan to find the fruit? I just assumed that the "also" means they happened to be unlocked simultaneously. she also awakened the Rinnegan Oops I typo'ed that. Should be Rinnesharingan. Fixed~" QuakingStar (talk) 20:20, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Wait, so she got the Byakugan at the same time she did the Rinne Sharingan? Eh? It's unclear if she had the Byakugan before eating the chakra fruit? Eh? 20:24, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * If my understanding of language is correct, it means prior, since 'carried' is past tense and as she ate the fruit, she 'also' got the Rinne Sharingan, which means subsequently.

Just because it says that Kaguya had had Byakugan prior to chakra doesn't mean that it refers to the white alien eyes themselves but possibly the activated state. After all, Hyuga when they activate their doujutsu yell 'Byakugan!!!' if the white eye itself were Byakugan, there would be no need for that. The Byakugan just originates from the white alien eye, but as shown with Himawari, the activated doujutsu state, the actual Byakugan can be accessed even without alien eye genes--Elve Talk Page 20:27, May 19, 2016 (UTC)


 * @WindStar7125, Byakugan means "White Eye", a white eye literally is Byakugan. Arguing that a white eye without veins isn't a byakugan is silly. Kaguya had chakra before eating the god fruit, and was able to use byakugan techniques before eating the god fruit. So arguing that Ohtsutsuki's have white eyes that aren't byakugan is a baseless claim. This wiki already lists Kinshiki as a user of the byakugan, even though he never showed veins. Even if Hagoromo's byakugan is "incomplete" it should still be listed, because Shijima's incomplete sharingan is listed. --DC52 (talk) 20:52, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

DB4 confirms she did not have chakra before eating the fruit. You need chakra for Byakugan, and Hinata's DB4 page mentions how she "can control the Byakugan" meaning you need chakra to use and control it. QuakingStar (talk) 20:57, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

"@WindStar7125, Byakugan means 'White Eye', a white eye literally is Byakugan. Arguing that a white eye without veins isn't a byakugan is silly." Way to take things literally. That's like saying the Sharingan eyeball itself is a "technique" simply because its a doujutsu and doujutsu literally translates to "eye technique". Things like Genjutsu: Sharingan are actual techniques and jutsu. Not the first time a term and its literal translation are used as two different things. "Kaguya had chakra before eating the god fruit, and was able to use byakugan techniques before eating the god fruit." Lol, you have no proof of that. ^^ "This wiki already lists Kinshiki as a user of the byakugan, even though he never showed veins." It was stated elsewhere, according to Tau. 20:59, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Kaguya used some kind of power to repel those soldiers, and she had no veins prior eating the fruit in episode 460. I think she had chakra before the tree came from other planet she was the first person to use chakra on Naruto's planet. There is no such thing as magic in Naruto verse so I guess she used her normal Byakugan white eyes.--Mecha Naruto (talk) 21:05, May 19, 2016 (UTC)