Forum:Banbutsu Souzou mistaken for the sage's version of Izanagi;

There has been an interpretation mistake ever since the proper translation of Naruto 510's "Shocking Forbidden Jutsu". The proper translation says, Quote: "the Izanagi technique was Originally a practical application of the Sage of Six Path's Creation of All Things". Which explains that Rikudou Sennin used Izanagi as the practical application of Banbutsu Souzou "creation of all things", which means Banbutsu Souzou itself was Impractical and inapplicable. So, Banbutsu Souzou could not of possibly created the bijuu, without the ability to be practical(Capable of or suitable to being used or put into effect; useful:) or applicable(capable of being applied; having relevance) when it comes to using ninjutsu or genjutsu.

So if the sage, who uses ninjutsu and genjutsu, could not apply or make "creation of all things" practical. Then how was it able to be used or applied to create the bijuu if its not useful or applicable? The whole reason the Sage probably created Izanagi from banbutsu souzou is because its a jutsu with no real world application or practicality. Thus why Izanagi is the topic of the chapter "Shocking forbidden technique", mentioned four separate times as well as creation, while banbutsu Souzou was merely mentioned one time, vaguely.

I understand how the translation could be misinterpreted. Japanese is a pain in the butt. However, the jutsu Tobi was describing to Konan was in fact Izanagi, but the sage's version. This is confirmed by tobi's "let me tell you a little about MY JUTSU and myself", which is Izanagi, not banbutsu Souzou, along with his attainment of Hashirama;s abilities by taking his cells. As well as the explanation of danzou's Izanagi as "incomplete due to inability to control Hashirama's power". Which is why the incomplete Izanagi can take reality (such as a real attack) and turn it into an illusion or dream (making the real attack into merely an illusion which is why danzou was not harmed). While Tobi describes the Sage's Izanagi as the power to bring Imagination to life. which is opposite of what the incomplete Izanagi used by danzou that makes something real into an illusion. Not Vica versa.

You do not have to take my word for it. Reread the chapter 510 and see for yourself. IMO, Izanagi is the jutsu Tobi is explaining the history of, how it works and what it has done. Not banbutsu Souzou due to its impracticability as well as being inapplicable for ninjutsu or genjutsu, which the sage used.

My best analogy to describe a similar situation is through "that jutsu". Naruto has a jutsu called "that jutsu" his father created. But, It is an impractical and inapplicable version of the jutsu naruto will make from it we will just call "Flying Kyuubi sage jutsu". Just as the sage created a jutsu called banbutsu souzou. But, because of its impracticability and being inapplicable. The sage created a whole new jutsu from it that was a practical and applicable version called Izanagi.

Its not that great, but it explains what I am trying to say.

(Things that show Tobi is explaining Izanagi, not banbutsu Souzou)


 * Izanagi's the jutsu tobi used right before explaining it to konan. It was her lack of knowledge and confusion as to how Tobi could have did what he did that was the premise for the explanation of Izanagi in the first place.


 * Izanagi is Mentioned four times within two and a half pages while banbutsu souzou is mentioned merely once.


 * Tobi starts his explanation with "Izanagi, the power to connect illusion to reality" and ended with "the power to bring Imagination to life, that is IZANAGI".


 * The jutsu used to create the bijuu and many other things comes from the power of Uchiha and senju combined as one. The same power it takes to use Izanagi, but one has to be able to control both powers unlike danzou who could not control the senju power.


 * The Yin/yang nature elements were explained as Yin being based on the application of IMAGINATION and spirit energy to create shape and form from nothingness. With Yang being the Application of life force and physical energy to BRING THE FORM AND SHAPE TO LIFE. Which is exactly the same explanation of what the sage's Izanagi does. It Brings IMAGINATION to LIFE. Imagination is whats applied as YIN for the creation of form from nothing while "bringing to LIFE" is what the Yang element does through the use of life force and physical energy.


 * Danzou's Izanagi is confirmed as a incomplete version which is why it is so limited. So the Actual Izanagi, which was used by the sage Originally, is far more powerful and capable with the ability to bring imagination to life, rather then the incomplete self defense version used to merely cheat death.


 * With the "creation of all things" not being practical or applicable. And the sagew of six paths being a ninjutsu and genjutsu user. "creation of all things" could not of possibly created anything with no ability to be practical or applicable as ninjutsu or genjutsu.

Conclusion:I know there will be skepticism, but just reread the chapter for yourself and take into consideration what I have presented here. Approach it with no real preference for either Izanagi or banbutsu souzou as the jutsu being described to try and eliminate bias for one over the other. read the chapter and make your own conclusion based on observation, comparison and consistency to make your own conclusion as opposed to just letting the preconceived notion that banbutsu souzou is what everyone believes is the topic of explanation so it must be true.

We've had those panels where Tpbi talks about it translated by someone who knows Japanese, it's correct as is. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:49, July 16, 2012 (UTC)

You are overthinking it too much. The difference between Creation of All Things and Izangi is: Simply the former being used to create things, the latter to control existence.--Elveonora (talk) 23:31, July 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * The former = creation of form through imagination and breathing life into it (simply God hax no jutsu)
 * Izanagi = turning reality into illusion and illusion into reality

I also can translate pretty good myself. And the statement on page 11, chapter 510 about Izanagi and banbutsu souzou is something anyone with a translating app could translate lol. Simply finding consistent translations to determine the proper usage of a kanjii or word is the best way to go if you have no Japanese translating skills at all.

Anyways, I am not really over thinking it IMO, but I believe the topic has not been looked into and given the proper method to determine the correct context of the said statement we are discussing. All I was trying to point out above everything else is that if Izanagi was a Practical application of this Banbutsu souzou, then clearly this banbutsu souzou could not of possibly created the bijuu much less anything else besides being the foundation for becoming Izanagi due to its inability to be practical and applicable which is a requirement to be a ninjutsu or genjutsu. Which are all techniques that are practical as well as applicable.

And The manga explains the difference as Izanagi is something the sage used as a practical application of something called banbutsu souzou... Something the chapter mentioned once, vaguely. Meanwhile the entire chapter is about IZANAGI, not banbutsu souzou. Izanagi is mentioned four times to Banbutsu's 1. That alone should have been a warning flag when the idea that banbutsu souzou was thought to be the jutsu tobi was explaining as the creation jutsu that created many things including the bijuu from the ten tails chakra.

IMO, The reason people thought banbusto souzou was the jutsu that created the bijuu and many other things is because it was thought that Izanagi was just a forbidden jutsu of the uchiha that turns reality into an illusion... Yet Tobi clearly explains that Izanagi is actually a jutsu Originally used by the sage as a practical application for some random thing called "creation all things". Izanagi is the power of the senju and uchiha. Izanagi is the power to turn imagination into reality through the use of Yin and Yang AKA Uchiha and senju's powers which is what it takes to use Izanagi in the first place. The incomplete version of Izanagi used by danzou is not Izanagi, but a cheap imitation due to an inability to control hashirama's power.

Without a single panel to even explain what banbutsu souzou "creation of all things" is, other then something Impractical and inapplicable thus impossible to use for ninjutsu or genjutsu with these two qualities. Izanagi needs to get credit for the creation of the bijuu and many things as the manga states itself.

Thank you. Good day...

Izanagi affects only one's own state of reality.--Elveonora (talk) 22:00, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

You're the only person I've ever seen to claim that translation. All translators in all forums I visit say the same as we do. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:03, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

Not to mention we are yet to see Tobi "create" something with Izangi ;) As I said, Izangi = turning illusion into reality and reality into illusion. Banbutsu Souzou = turning thoughts into a solid form and breathing life into it.

It's a COMPLETELY different application but similar principle of Yin-Yang release. So6p wasn't a Izanagi user, the technique was developed later by Uchiha ... not to mention Izanagi eats away a Sharingan's light, while Banbutsu Souzou is usable with Rinnegan.--Elveonora (talk) 22:09, July 18, 2012 (UTC)

SO you will just believe something because a majority of people do as well as opposed to taking a look at it yourself and analyzing the context of the translation which has been slaughtered by whoever translated the comment made by tobi.

Ur translator was not wrong about the translation, but the translation was clearly taken out of context.

"The Izanagi Technique was Originally a Practical Application of the Rikudou Sennins creation of all things"

Practical:Adj) "Of or concerned with the actual doing or use of something." Application:Noun) "the act of putting to use or for special purpose"

If Izanagi is the actual use, putting to use of banbutsu souzou as either a ninjutsu or genjutsu for the creation of many things like the bijuu. Then banbutsu souzou can obviously be anything other then impractical and inapplicable.

'''Impractical: "Not adapted for use or action; not sensible or realistic" Inapplicable: " not capable of being applied, unable to use".'''

see, with Izanagi as the practical applicable version, then banbutsu souzou can be nothing other then the impractical, inapplicable version which means banbutsu souzou is not adapter for use or action, not capable of being applied or used. These qualities make it impossible for banbutsu souzou to be a ninjutsu or genjutsu which are both practical applications of the ninja's physical skills and illusionary skills. Thus banbutsu souzou could not of possibly created the bijuu without practicality or being applicable which Izanagi, ninjutsu and genjutsu are.

Do you see what I am trying to point out.

Also, Nowhere does it say banbutsu souzou can create form with yin then use yang to breathe life into it... that is what tobi says RS's Izanagi does using the power of the Uchiha/YIN and senju/Yang, turning imagination into reality, AKA using the imagination which is the basis for YIN to create form, shape then using Yang to make the imaginary form and shape reality, thus bringing the imagination to life.. that is the power of IZANAGI. The Izanagi you are thinking of that was used by danzou and tobi is merely an Incomplete version due to the inability to control hashirama's power. Tobi explains Izanagi was Originally used by the sage and for the purpose of turning Imagination into reality the use of the Yin/yang release from Uchiha and senju's powers. All this^^^ is confirmed by the manga. reread the chapter 510, pages 10-12.

And no, if you have read the proper translation then you would know that Banbutsu souzou has no form of application so how can it be a different form of application? "The Izanagi Technique was Originally a Practical Application of the Rikudou Sennins creation of all things" If Izanagi was Banbutsu souzou's practical application then banbutsu souzou was not even capable of being a ninjutsu or genjutsu because both require applicability and practicality as well, which banbutsu souzou clearly did not have by the description of the translation.

I am not trying to create an argument or war over the translation. Just point out the fact the context of the proper translation has clearly been mistaken because everyone believes Banbutsu souzou was used to create the bijuu when the manga explains it was RS's Izanagi as banbutsu souzou's practical application which can bring imagination to life. The exact description of how the bijuu were made.

Just read the chapter over from page 10-12 with the proper translations and take the context and meaning of practical and applicable into consideration and you will see what I am talking about.

Wow this is a lot. From what I understand though it works this way. Creation of all things was used along with the Ten-Tail's power to create stuff. Yang to breathe life into the "illusions" created by Yin. Izanami to me is also an application of the Creation of all Things using the Yin side while Izanagi uses both Yin and Yang. That being said, I don't see anything wrong with the Creation article. From what I read in the chapter and in the article, they seem to corroborate. Tobi was referring to Banbutsu Sozo at that point and called Izanagi a practical application of the technique which means it was created to mimic the effects of the technique/derived etc.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 18:59, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

Tobi uses the complete version of Izanagi and it isn't Banbutsu Sōzō because he is yet to create something with his Izanagi. Neither Edo Madara that has both Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan/Rinnegan and Perfected Hashirama's boob has used Izanagi/Creation of All Things, unless the "Meteorite Technique" was it.--Elveonora (talk) 19:35, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

I'm leaving a link to the translation we got here. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:21, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

But nowhere in the correct translation is banbutsu souzou even stated to do anything at all other then being the foundation for the jutsu Izanagi, as its predecessor.

In order to understand what tobi was explaining about Banbutsu souzou you only have to understand the context of its explanation which is Banbutsu souzou is something the sage used, but izanagi is its practical application version... And in a world of ninjutsu and genjutsu which are both practical and applicable. Banbutsu souzou could not possibly be either due to its lacking practicality and applicability...

The whole reason banbutsu souzou was thought of as the jutsu tobi is explaining is because they already believed that what danzou and tobi used to cheat death was Izanagi. WHich turned out to not be the case...

'''Canon, as explained by the manga... '''

Rikudou sage's Izanagi "version#1": "The Oroginal jutsu used by Rikudou sennin as a practical application of banbutsu souzou that was capable of creating many things through the power of the uchiha and senju (AKA YIN and YANG nature chakra) by BRINGING IMAGINATION (basis for Yin) TO LIFE (the result of yang)... 

Izanagi version#2: "The UCHIHA"S FORBIDDEN JUTSU"... that does not require the power of the senju and uchiha like its original version used by the sage, ONLY THE UCHIHA'S POWER... and because of this, only being a kinjutsu of the uchiha with just a large use of YIN nature chakra from their Sharingan's. The Uchia's Izanagi is not nearly as powerful as the sage's which is why can only turn reality into an illusion to cheat death.

'''See, the entire basis for the use of banbutsu souzou as the jutsu that created the bijuu is because of this confusion... However, the manga explained how the two different Izanagi's works and the power it took to use both... ALL that was said about banbutsu souzou for sure is that its an impractical, inapplicable version of Izanagi as its predecessor... AGain, its impossible for banbutsu souzou to do anything without practicality or applicability since those are two qualities required for the use of any ninjutsu or genjutsu which is why banbutsu souzou could not of possibly created anything at all, but Izanagi as its foundation...'''

Due to this evidence, instead of waiting for the Databook #4 to validate my statement. I think its only right to change the Izanagi page to fit what the manga it self says... There are two versions, the uchiha's forbidden jutsu that only needs the uchiha's YIN nature chakra from their SG to use which turns reality into an illusion... and the Rukudou Sage's Original version that needs the power of both the uchiha and senju to create things by turning Imagination into reality bringing it to life... this also means the banbutsu souzou page should be as vague as its presentation by the manga as just the predecessor of Izanagi...

Again, change your wiki for Izanagi and banbutsu souzou... this site takes pride in its correct presentation of naruto skills, characters, ect ect. Its only right to finally show what the manga explained almost 100 chapters ago. Izanagi created the bijuu, not banbutsu souzou that could not of created anything without practicality or applicability...

Good day....

So what does "creation of all things" refer to? If it was stated: "Izanagi's usage in creation was called creation of all things" then that would make sense, since you say that it wasn't practical... also, are you aware that that would mean that Sage had a Sharingan (which isn't confirmed at all) or that Izanagi is usable with Rinnegan as well?--Elveonora (talk) 16:28, July 28, 2012 (UTC)

What?? Where does it say Izanagi was used as "creation of all things"??? The correct translation, I did thorough research translating too... says that Izanagi ORIGINALLY the "Practical Application" of the rikudou sage's banbutsu souzou (creation of all things). Meaning the sage was the original user of Izanagi and it was a practical application of something called "creation of all things"... but if it was its practical application, then banbutsu souzou itself had to of been impractical and inapplicable meaning it could not of possibly been used as a genjutsu or ninjutsu which is what the sage did as the creator of such techniques...

Practical means, useful, capable of being used, practiced... Applicable means, capable of being applied, can be used, specific use...

All explains Izanagi was a useful, capable of being used, applied, specifically used, version of banbutsu souzou whatever it actually is... WIthout the two qualities of "practicality or applicability", banbutsu souzou could not do anything much less create bijuu as a non-ninjutsu or genjutsu... Both of which are specifically used techniques created by the sage... as practical and applicable themselves.....

And the sage did not show a SG, but its power of YIN nature chakra he did have... WHich is why he was the Uchiha power (YIN nature chakra) and senju power (Yang nature chakra) in one being... Not to mention the Rinnegan is the creation of the uchiha's "true power" SG A.K.A. the Eternal mangekyou sharingan... combined with hashirama senju's power which is Yang nature chakra inherited from the younger son of the sage himself... This was confirmed when edo madara's EMS was transformed into the sage of six paths RG once hashirama's chakra was combined with madara's from complete cell implantation of hashirama's which is why there is a shodai face on edo madara's chest... SHown here in the manga... (madara's EMS transforms into the RG because of what kabuto did to him... The we find out its because whats on edo madara's chest that his EMS became the RG... then its shown that madara is infused completely with shidai, hashirama senju's cells in order to produce his chakra that takes the SG's power to a whole new level.. bringing out its full potential.... which is why he looked at his chest, realizing why he was able to gain the RG from his EMS... SO yes, the sage had the power of the SG (nine tomoe shown on the juubi's eye, three tomoe for each transformation of the SG... SG(3 tomoe)-MS(3 tomoe)-EMS(3 tomoe), thus 9 tomoe SG is its true power...) And the RG can use Izanagi as a Yin+Yang doujutsu of the uchiha+senju... its the power originally used by the sage to perform the true Izanagi that turns imagination into reality, thus bringing it to life...

Remember, banbutsu souzou may be called "creation of all things", but without practicality or applicability... it couldn't possibly create anything. However, its practical application, IZANAGI, can as a ninjutsu/genjutsu capable of creating many things by turning imagination into reality through the power of Yin and yang, aka uchiha and senju's powers... I think with the name of banbutsu souzou translating into "creation of all things" and that people already believed Izanagi was the jutsu used by danzou and tobi to cheat death bu turning reality into an illusion... Because of these^^, it was believed banbutsu souzou was what tobi was referring to as the creation technique used by the sage to create the bijuu and many other things... However, tobi explained rather clearly that he was explaining HIS jutsu, which he just used, Izanagi... explaining the uchiha forbidden technique first... then explaining the sages version he originally used which required the power of the uchiha and senju, unlike the uchiha's kinjutsu Izanagi... through the power of Yin and yang (aka uchiha and sneju powers) the sage could bring imagination to life, creating many many things... like the bijuu...

Also, I am going to keep repeating this so it can sink in with certain people who just are not willing to believe...

Two versions of Izanagi... as explained by tobi in the very chapter about Izanagi called "shocking forbidden technique", which was about Izanagi, not banbutsu souzou which was only mentioned once, vaguely, compared to Izanagi being mentioned over four times... obviously the chapter was explaining what Izanagi can do, not banbutsu souzou...

'''The two versions of Izanagi, as explained by tobi and manga itself... '''

Uchiha's Forbidden technique, Izanagi: "Which only requires the power of the uchiha, not senju (unless the length of time of the illusion wants to be extended), which can only turn reality into an Illusion for the briefest of moments.. Thus th euchiha's kinjutsu IZANAGI is not actually a yin/yang jutsu like the sages... if it only requires the power of YIN nature chakra through the use of the uchiha's power of the SG then its only a YIN nature technique...

Rikudou Sage's Izanagi technique: "WHIch requires the power of Uchiha and senju (AKA Yin and yang nature chakra) allowing the user to create things by transforming their Imagination into reality, bringing it to life... This original izanagi is a Yin/Yang technique as opposed to the uchiha's kinjutsu version that only requires the Yin chakra of their SG's...

This^^^ is what was explaining by tobi in the chapter 510... You can check your self... there are two version, each doing two separate things... but RS's version is the original and the most powerful, once used to create even the bijuu... while the uchiha's kinjutsu version is a cheap imitation that only needs the power of the YIN chakra of their SG's to tunr reality into an illusion... However, hashirama senju's power cna be used to extend the length of time the illusion last though... but the jutsu itself is not Yin/yang... like the sage's version.. Yang can be applied to make the illusion more efficient...

umm... okay. You are speculating though, Sage was the "original blood" both Uchiha and Senju, but Izanagi clearly requires eye power and takes away sight, not to mention we are yet to see it being used with Rinnegan, thus ur speculating. Just let it be for the time being, I'm sure Kishi is gonna revisit it.--Elveonora (talk) 19:39, July 28, 2012 (UTC)