Talk:Bukijutsu

Legit ?
This doesn't seem to be legitimate. Tagged for deletion. --Speysider Talk Page 18:38, November 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * If it isn't, than what is the term for weapons techniques/weapons handling?- 2.217.178.200 (talk) 19:00, November 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, I'd say with a few references, it could be made into a legitimate page. After all, Kenjutsu isn't mentioned by name in the series, yet has its own page here on the wiki. Not to mention, several characters, namely Tenten, rely either heavily or completely on weapons as a part of their fighting style so a page like this could actually be useful. What do the other members of the community think? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 19:22, November 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * Edit: Furthermore, Bōjutsu and Kamajutsu are not named in the series, but our clearly practiced. I think the page needs references and a general once over to clean it up and be up to par with the manual of style, but certainly shouldn't be deleted. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 19:25, November 1, 2012 (UTC)

Well i'd certainly like if it had a link (or something similar) to site to see if this is an actual art rather than just say lets see if it fits in. Cause really Bukijutsu sounds like something made up. Are their any sites (or something similar) that we can find that proves its real?98.26.246.74 (talk) 19:29, November 1, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan
 * Well i googled it and i found that it is indeed something thats an actual term. So the question is, does it fit on this site? I think it might. I mean Tenten and Asuma and several other characters specialise heavily upon weaponry. Like Ten Tailed Fox said, Kenjutsu has an article and actually now that i think about it shurikenjutsu also does. However when i googled it i found it spelled Buki Jutsu.98.26.246.74 (talk) 19:33, November 1, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan

See link: 武器術 2.217.178.200 (talk) 19:37, November 1, 2012 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia calls it Kukushi bukijutsu, which literally means "hidden weapons art". It is part of the Kōga-ryū, which was a traditional school of ninjutsu. So, real life-wise, yes, it is real. I do believe there was a few episodes in the anime, revolving around Gaara, that pertained specifically to Bukijutsu. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 19:37, November 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * What episodes?98.26.246.74 (talk) 19:45, November 1, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan

Take a look at the page now. I reworded some things to make more sense, referenced the page to the manga and the anime, and added the list of sub-types, which will contain a list of the articles on sub-groups of Bukijutsu; namely Kenjutsu and Shurikenjutsu. I honestly don't think the page needs deletion. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 19:55, November 1, 2012 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, what would one call "Trapping Techniques", Wanajutsu? (罠術), seeing as they play a part in a Ninja's arsenal. In the Trap Master Arc, a character called Gennō was known as the "Trap Master", why is there not a page for Trapping Techniques? 2.217.178.200 (talk) 20:27, November 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * Because other than anime filler, there is no trapping art. Furthermore it isn't a real ninja art, unlike bukijutsu, so there is no precedent.~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 20:45, November 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * What about other characters that use traps, like Iruka Umino and his Sealed Bomb Square Release, or his Barrier: Confining Technique (which would be both a trap technique and a Barrier Ninjutsu). Ninja traps often include Explosive Tags.

94.13.147.88 (talk) 20:59, November 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * But traps, such as snares, pits and such, are used in the manga too. Like during the bell test, when Kakashi Hatake tests Naruto Uzumaki, Sakura Haruno and Sasuke Uchiha on their team work during the bell test, Naruto keeps setting of Kakashi's traps, and Kakashi admolishes him for having not kept an eye out for them.  Student Ninja would learn about traps and such at the Academy.

94.13.147.88 (talk) 12:41, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

)

Well, if you want to be this strict, than why was Shurikenjutsu included here? I dont remember this to be ever exactly mentioned, and it is widely used? It makes sense because it is specialization on one type of weapon-use combat. Wanajutsu doesnt seem that legit, as setting traps is more about improvisation than learning the methods of setting them up. Its not art at all. But like TenTails said, kenjutsu, kyujutsu and bōjutsu all existed as real-life terms as well as bukijutsu, so why not keep it here as well? I was personally also for long time searching for a term that I would use for character who are using weapons as Tenten, personally calling "Weapon Masters". Now I would have a chance to name it better, Bukijutsu-user. --VolteMetalic (talk) 21:28, November 1, 2012 (UTC)

Consensus
Alright, if no one else has any objections, I am going to remove the deletion tag at the top of this page. It is clear that this page can stand on its own. So, speak now or forever hold your peace. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 22:15, November 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * As a reader, I think that the page should make it absolutely clear that this isn't a canon concept within the Naruto universe, and is instead an "analysis" page; detailing a non-canon analyzed concept and specifically using the Japanese name for it gives a bit of an unfortunate impression to me. It might help to merge Shurikenjutsu and Kenjutsu back in, and pretty much all of the trivia sections could be added back in as actual content; especially since the page is "real world looking in", the Koga-Ryu stuff wouldn't need to be relegated to Trivia. 23:32, November 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think something like the following might make this clearer, and would certainly seem more professional to me as a reader (apologies if this coding won't work, they're the templates I'm used to):

Most shinobi and samurai are trained to be proficient with some form of weapon proficiency, a skill known as in Japan. In the Naruto universe, Bukijutsu are usually demonstrated with handheld weapons, using techniques based on the taught by the historical  school of ninjutsu, located in the  region of Japan; of special import are Kenjutsu and Shurikenjutsu. Bukijutsu is quite versatile, and can be used in combination with taijutsu, ninjutsu, chakra flow, and even other weapons in order to achieve more devastating effects, such as the flail used in conjunction with the Infinite Armour, and Kakashi Hatake's use of lightning-infused kunai.

Students of the Ninja Academy are taught the use of of ninja weapons and tools, like shuriken and kunai, learning how to throw and wield them through target practice. Several shinobi, such as Tenten, the Gold and Silver Brothers, and Seimei, are particularly renowned for their skill in bukijutsu.

Kenjutsu
stuff

Shurikenjutsu
stuff

How's that hit you? 23:32, November 1, 2012 (UTC)

Well, I just saw the page as it currently is, and it looks good. I see no reason to delete it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:27, November 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * In that case, I have removed the deletion tag. I figured its current state would be able to stand on its own. Glad it can stay. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:32, November 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Mkay, but what about my suggestions? I know I'm just a reader, but I'm super antsy at seeing an article with a fan term being presented without clarifying that it's not official. 03:51, November 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Every unnamed technique on this site has a fan-made name until it is given an official one by Kishimoto. Furthermore, Kenjutsu, Shurikenjutsu, Kamajutsu, etc., all are not named within the manga, however, that doesn't mean they don't exist. Bukijutsu is the ninja technique of using handheld weapons. Clearly that is what they are doing, so that is what we called it, because that is what it is. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 04:08, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

I recall it being said that we shouldn't do stuff like this- create broad/sub category articles like this one. The categories that are used now are from databooks or else mentioned heavily in the manga like shurikenjutsu and those are the one we should stick with. Even then if we were to add all of those we'd have categories like "infinite explosion techniques" Sure this article is interesting but if left alone, it will only lead to the creation of more broad-ended and sub-category fighting styles. It doesn't really serve a purpose other than to tell us that there's some other category style/that hasn't been mentioned in the manga, so I don't see the sense to it being on the wikia when it's just another cumbersome word to fill into a cell.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 11:36, November 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually Cerez, it is from a source. If I remember correctly the Ultimate Weapon Arc featured the term and Gaara covered the art almost exclusively. Not to mention, as can be seen by the page, it can clearly hold a wealth of useful information. Weapon techniques that do not fall into the category of shurikenjutsu or what have you, like Tenten's unique techniques, would be classified more broadly. Either way, I don't think the page should be gotten rid of. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 13:07, November 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Cerez is right, we did have a discussion similar to this before, when we made the kenjutsu page or something like that a while ago. If we keep the page or not, it is something that has to be monitored closely so that it doesn't snowball into endless amounts of subcategories and whatnot.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:39, November 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll keep an eye on it, as I'm sure you will as well. I think the general rule of thumb should be don't create a sub-category for it if it isn't a prominent means of fighting. For example, there is no sub-category for kamajutsu, even though two characters in the series use it, because it isn't that prominent. Instead, it recieves a small, one sentence mention in the "Other Uses" section. That way, only important information recieves sub-categories, and all the rest can receive a small nod towards them in the Other uses part. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 15:05, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

The way I see it, a simple sentence or even section could be made in the ninjutsu section to differentiate taijutsu from when someone uses weapons in their attacks (bukijutsu) which can be subsumed into the ninjutsu category. Assuming I've understood what bukijutsu is. Straying away from the norm regardless is going to lead to creation of more sub-categories like this.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 02:09, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * Taijutsu and Bukijutsu are two completely different things. Even the real-life ninja taught them separately. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 04:48, November 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * This page is basically my one drive-by review, so I'll leave after this, but I really, really don't see why "other pages sometimes use unofficial translations" would justify "this page doesn't need to clarify that it is a fan-observed name AND concept". In fact, in my mind the given would only imply that the other pages should abso-fricking-lutely stress that the names are not official. I'm much less averse to pages that break the fourth wall than I am to pages that confuse the issue of what is and isn't canon, since one is a matter of style and the other is a matter of solid fact. 07:34, November 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * I never said taijutsu and bukijutsu were the same thing. Doubt I'd ever make that mistake. What I did say, however, it that from what I understand, bukijutsu is what other people would incorrectly classify as taijutsu (the use of weapons) which is actually ninjutsu. Ergo why I said mention that bukijutsu is the use of weapons in the ninjutsu article, which may possibly clear things up for people who incorrectly think that using a weapon is taijutsu.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 11:27, November 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * And again, pretty much any technique on this site is Ninjutsu. What is ninjutsu? Ninja Techniques. That encompasses taijutsu, bukijutsu, genjutsu, or any other techniques a ninja is taught. Its fundamental that you understand that. However, ninjutsu, both in the real world, and in Naruto, are split into different categories; Bukijutsu (weapon usage), Taijutsu (hand-to-hand combat), and Genjutsu (illusion techniques). We can't just ignore a whole category of ninja training, especially when it has mentions in the anime and the manga. Furthermore, anyone who may confuse this as a form of taijutsu gets clarification in the summary at the top of this page, which says something to the effect that bukijutsu can be used to supplement ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijutsu which clearly sets it apart from said category. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 14:05, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

Why for the sake of this wikia would I ever be referring to ninjutsu in its general term and not what has been used in the series? All of what you said after that is basically what I've been saying. Bukijutsu is the use of tools. People normally come here and ask why is Tenten's attack referred to as ninjutsu even though she's using a weapon for example. Which comes back around to the fact that all of this article, could be mentioned in the ninjutsu and even taijutsu article in one sentence "It should be noted that the use of weapons is often misconstrued as taijutsu, it is in fact bukijutsu —(if applicable)— which is actually a form of ninjutsu" instead of creating another unnecessary, hitherto category for people to fill in.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 13:27, November 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yup, I think a line should suffice.—

Observation: this article was created by Special:Contributions/2.217.178.200. The same IP asked about "wanajutsu". Wanajutsu was deleted for being a duplicate of Torappujutsu. Torappujutsu was created by User:Wiserline Mare-Silverus. If this isn't enough evidence, certain writing quirks also match.

Conclusion: the original concept for this article comes from the same user who has given the wiki such gems as "ninja spiders", "ninja sharks", "ninja bees", and "chakra control"; created the original versions of kenjutsu, fighting style, collaboration jutsu, and kikaichū; and took Drunken Fist, Toad Oil Bullet, Crystal Release, and Four Legs Technique in some strange directions.

Does Wiserline's involvement discredit this topic? I don't know. But he was a real headache back in 2009. ~SnapperTo 23:42, November 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * Ah, that ability of Snapper that I fear so much. Outside of who created it though, I simply believe life would be a lot easier for us to simply consolidate this technique in the taijutsu and ninjutsu articles.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 12:50, November 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * I have seen the term, 'Bukijutsu', come up before and wondered why this wiki didn't have an article for it, since, though not mentioned directly, it is never-the-less depicted most prominantly in the franchise. And for the record, I'm a 'She', not a 'He'.--94.13.147.88 (talk) 21:55, November 6, 2012 (UTC)
 * Where exactly have you seen that term? Because I'm pretty sure you've never heard of it coming out of the manga. If we were to follow that thought process then there'd be a hundred other categories and sub-categories because everything done by a shinobi can be classified as "x-jutsu" and that's the whole point in keeping this ninjutsu subcategory. We should simply stick to the basic ones and not delve off into stuff like this.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 08:36, November 7, 2012 (UTC)

Kyūjutsu section
I think kidomaru should be the one mentioned there, i mean you've seen how good he was with this type of jutsu in his fight against Neji.--Charmanking2198 (talk) 13:15, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

Anyone?--Charmanking2198 (talk) 14:36, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, he probably deserves a mention, but I'm leaving this up to Ten Tails, this is pretty much his baby here. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 14:41, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

Yea pretty much.--Charmanking2198 (talk) 14:43, November 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * This is a community wiki, anyone can edit it, but since you guys feel he should receive mention, I'll add him. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 14:56, November 2, 2012 (UTC)

Decision
Not to let this be one of those things that slip through the cracks and we let it as an elephant in the room, I believe we need to make a decision as to whether or not this category should be allowed to stay or else subsumed into the ninjutsu/taijutsu articles.--Cerez 365 ™:NO(talk) 08:25, November 7, 2012 (UTC)

And how exactly do you intend to do that, according to its name Bukijutsu is another separate and a different type of jutsu, different from taijutsu or ninjutsu why should we iclude this category to these articles. I know Bukijutsu can be used in combination with taijutsu, ninjutsu, and even genjutsu but that's not enough to prove that this article shouldn't be allowed to stay, if you ask me this page can clearly stand on its own.--Charmanking2198 (talk) 10:29, November 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * Please read the above topics, you're supposed to use this section for yays or nays. With the exception that it is used by samurai as well, bukijutsu is a form of ninjutsu. The use of it by samurai can always be mentioned in their article separately. This is precisely the misconception I've been talking about it is not used in collaboration with ninjutsu or taijutsu. Taijutsu cannot use weapons. Once you use a weapon (like Might Guy does with his Sōshūga) it's immediately classified as ninjutsu. I never said the article can't stand on it's own, it's whether or not it is necessary to add another sub-category.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 10:43, November 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * This article seems unneccessary to me.—

So you are saying that all weapon related techniques are all ninjutsu rather than bukijutsu .--Charmanking2198 (talk) 11:08, November 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * They are bukijutsu which fall under the broad category of ninjutsu.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 11:11, November 7, 2012 (UTC)

Honestly, i was wondering why it took sooo very long to make this article...we have people like Tenten, Obito, Madara, Sasuke, Kakashi, etc, etc, etc who displayed a large use of unique weapons, but never got proper mentions until these recent times...i believe it's necessary to tell apart which is which and not let how other believe...that weapons use is a taijutsu sub-part...i think that as an over-arching category it can and should stand.Darksusanoo (talk) 21:37, November 8, 2012 (UTC)

Well, someone has to give up. Decide this so I can work on this article, that's pretty interesting actually.--Spcmn (talk) 21:39, November 8, 2012 (UTC)