Talk:Gunbai

Scythe?
Where does it show the chain connecting to the scythe? After the battle against the Hashirama Senju, he Madara can be seen with the fan, and the chain is not connected to anything... it's possible it was cut during the battle, but still. - S im A nt 06:42, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, and earlier pictures show the chain and no scythe at all. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 21:30, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

How about just creating a soft redirect for this page, like all other minor weapons, such as the flail? Yatanogarasu 06:42, May 31, 2010 (UTC)

Use
In Generations, Madara used his Gunbai to create gusts of wind to blow away enemies and as a defensive tool to block attacks. Should we mention this in the article even though it is non-canonical?--Chimoshi (talk) 16:21, February 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * Game information is not usually chronicled outside of game articles. But as it is that it's a war far, I don't think it'd be used for any other purpose.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 16:28, February 26, 2012 (UTC)

War fans historically are used for signalling troops, and blocking and striking at close quarters. This fans ability to create large gusts is unique and I believe we should add this to the trivia section.
 * I should have probably been more clear... Temari who is the only other named user of a war fan in the series uses it for the same purpose, it's nothing new. Obviously war fans would not have the same real-life use as summoning up gusts of wind.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 13:06, February 29, 2012 (UTC)

Pic
Have we got a better picture where half of it isnt hidden behind someones back? Kotoamatsukami (talk) 19:01, March 12, 2012 (UTC)

Inconsistent Color
I noticed in the manga colored image of Madara with the fan that the fan is orange, but in the manga colored image of Tobi with the fan it is instead purple. Is this an error, or a case of extreme lighting, or some other color effecting status? Diamonddeath (talk) 09:23, September 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * When Tobi said the gunbai was Madara's he did not necessarily mean that it was the one he had however many years ago. He could have just as easily meant that this was Madara's weapon of choice, so he gave it to him.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 09:56, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

It was clearly his, ever heard of this? Obito/Tobi simply dyed it to his tastes--Elveonora (talk) 15:36, September 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * For once, I gotta agree with Elveonora on this one. Its obvious they were the same gunbai. Obito calls it Madara's gunbai. "This is yours after all" in no way implies that it was Madara's preferred weapon. If that were the case, he'd have said something along the lines of "Here. You prefer this type of weapon anyways". A simple trivia note to illustrate the inconsistencies would suffice. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:28, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

Sweet heavens, I thought such thing couldn't ever happen :P It's surely the original fan of Madara, why it's so hard to believe it was painted, Cerez? We can always ask our local Japanese-translating buddies if something for a confirmation--Elveonora (talk) 17:50, September 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * I just find it difficult to call something like this an inconsistency and chalk it up to Tobi painting over the fan, for what reason? Unless he's that fashion conscious. Any way, if the majority believes this to be so, fa be it from me to stop you guys, I will however, ask that nothing outside of what was said in the article be mentioned there, such as paint.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 18:06, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

Obito haz a good fashion sense, like designing various masks, modifying paths of pain to match his eyes, wearing a wig and stuff. Again, all we need is a correct translation--Elveonora (talk) 18:15, September 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * I added it to the article. It contains no speculation on how it got to be that color and merely reflects the information we know for sure. It should do until we get clarification, if we get any at all. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:22, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

I think it was very clear that the Gunbai Obito used was Madara's, and I think the way TTF wrote the information is adequate. It states what is know, and just that. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:15, September 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * I figured it would be the same one, but I also think it would be almost disrespectful to paint it a different color. Maybe it was just the lighting or a retcon. Diamonddeath (talk) 06:09, September 14, 2012 (UTC)

Madara can have some gunbais and it's probably another one different to the one he used in the past, like Killer B's supervibrato swords or Obito's masks. Light-Revan (talk) 14:36, September 25, 2012 (UTC)

Barrier technique
Even though the page was deleated a while back, i'm bringing back this discussion because it appears that the deletion of this technique was completely wrong. Here are the reasons:

1. Stating that it's Susanoo. First off a key feature for Susanoo, it that we always see it's bones especially it's ribcage when used for defensive purposes. As we see in chapter 601 there are no bones whatsoever and a side view shows this being a literal wall. Plus the whole idea of it being a Susanoo chakra flow thing is both silly and redundant plus while the Susanoo grants high defensive properties, it needs to have bones to give a proper defense.

2. Stating this is the Preta Path. The Preta Path only absorbs chakra based attacks, this wall blocked half a dozen of giant metal stakes, in other words it blocked a physical attack.

3. The sequence as a whole. Naruto throws the stakes, Obito replies by returning the weapon to Madara, then we see the dark chakra covering himself and the weapon, Madara the places the gunbai in a deliberate blocking position and in the end of it all we still see the gunbai covered in chakra after the technique dissipated, showing that it was used as a medium. It may well be a chakra flow but it's a deliberate separate technique.

Opinions are welcome and necessary. Darksusanoo (talk) 17:48, December 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think people assumed it to be a Susanoo aplication due to how it's aura is similar but yeah we don't see any bones, how it can't be the Preta Path because it only absorbs chakra, and how we still see the chakra comming from the weapon even after the technique was ended and how the thing looked like a wall and not a Susanoo part of sorts. This looks like a barrier technique not an aplication of another technique. 188.81.251.122 (talk) 21:02, December 26, 2012 (UTC)

Anyone else care to join in? Darksusanoo (talk) 21:58, December 26, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with you. It couldn't have been Preta Path (especially cause it blocked a physical attack), and we didn't see the bones of Susanoo.71.71.58.231 (talk) 22:42, December 26, 2012 (UTC) Yhwach

If it's a new technique, then I want it to be called something new. As far as I'm concerned that's still an application of Susanoo. I never saw anything indicating absorption for people to think that it's the Preta Path. Madara has used the Preta Path already, and it looked nothing like that. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:48, December 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * But sempai you were one of who mentioned it when Madara used the Preta Path on chapter 612. And What evidence do we have that this is a Susanoo aplication? And why should it be? Madara has always only used the actual Susanoo ribcage for defense, by that way everyone who has the Susanoo always only use the ribcage for defense. So it would make this aplication redundant...besides we see that after the wall dissapears that there is still chakra flowing out of the gunbai. It stands to more reason the way it was before, a chakra flow technique that creates a barrier. One question though: why is everyone so fixated that this a Susanoo aplication if it's clear that there none of the usual signs of the Susanoo? Darksusanoo (talk) 23:57, December 26, 2012 (UTC)

No I did not. I pointed out that Madara used a technique which fits the look of the previously used technique, without even touching the gunbai. In the same discussion, I also said I don't think that looked like chakra absorption of any kind. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:10, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually that wall (thing) that Madara made in chapter 612 looked just like that dome (ish) thing that Nagato made with the Preta Path to absorb Naruto's Rasengan.71.71.58.231 (talk) 00:14, December 27, 2012 (UTC) Yhwach
 * But again the Preta Path doesn't absorb physical attacks of any kind. And what previous technique were you refering then Sempai? Darksusanoo (talk) 00:17, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Nagato has never had to gesture to use that technique, why would Madara? And I still see no sign of chakra absorption in that scene, just the barrier blocking one Storm Release beam. The previous technique I mentioned is the one that used to be depicted in the Gunbai Barrier Technique, which I still think is a mere application of Susanoo. The one Madara actually channelled through the gunbai and started this whole mess. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:18, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * And that's also what i'm talking about, and again i ask why is everyone so fixated that this is a Susanoo aplication if we didn't see any of the basic Susanoo traits...besides every time Madara used the Susanoo it was mostly the same as everyone else who can use it. The differences just seem too much to snowball it with Susanoo. It looks more like a weapon-chakra flow aplication. Darksusanoo (talk) 00:24, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Susanoo is the only technique Madara has used which creates a protective aura. Is it that otherworldly for Madara to be able to have very fine control over Susanoo and use it like that? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:32, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Given the various differences between both situations, yes. If that were soo why would Madara wait until Obito returned the gunbai to use Susanoo, and not use it immediatly, or why would Obito bother to return it with half a dozen giant stakes flying in their direction? I find it more believable that Obito returned the weapon to it's owner and said owner decided to use it right away. Besides i find it extremely difficult that the mere aura of Susanno, even one as powerful as Madara's could have such a high degree of defensive properties, plus we still see chakra flowing off the weapon after the wall dissipates, which shows that it was used as medium. Darksusanoo (talk) 00:40, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Because Obito can't use Susanoo? We've never seen Susanoo being used to protect anyone other than the user, maybe Madara needed something through which he could channel Susanoo in order to be able to protect someone other than himself. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:51, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * And why would Obito even need Susanoo to protect himself if could go ghost mode (xD) and just let the stakes go past him? Sempai, no offense really but your reaching into the dark a bit to make your point. I think you were premature in deleting the technique, since there is solid ground to keep it. Plus Madara is more than just the Susanoo, and he is a weapons master as well. It's like i'm saying, this looks more like a weapon/chakra flow technique. Darksusanoo (talk) 00:56, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Not true, a Susanoo user can form a giant arm and protect another person, I think we have enough evidence to restore the article--Elveonora (talk) 01:22, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * The consensus when I last argued in the discussion in that talk page was to delete when I left it alone. I left the article untouched for over a week in case any one wanted to say anything. No one did, so I deleted it. The talk page is still there, see for yourself. My last argumentative post was on December 6th. I deleted the article on the 21st. No one said a word between the 7th and when I actually deleted it. The technique as it was described in the article emphasized the flowing of chakra through the gunbai to make the barrier, which Madara did without using the gunbai, still with no hint of chakra absorption to be the Preta Path. The darker shading when he used the gunbai is also consistent with the shading used for Susanoo. What do you expect me to think? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:28, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * I know sempai, i was one of the last ones to edit it, where i laid my opinion, late i know though i didnt't realize there was said debate over it's deletion. Still doesn't take away from the fact that deleting it was wrong and there is more than enough evidence to support it's re-instating. And from what i read they just chalked it up to dojutsu techniques, which granted is 70% of Madara's techniques, but that technique looks nothing like Susanoo. And the manga is in black and white so it's natural that darker color techniques look similar which granted can be problem sometimes. If anything it looks more like a variation of Uchiha/Four Violets Battle Flame Emcampment barrier techniques and we know that Madara is a weapons master with a preference for the gunbai. And in what chapter/page did Madara do this without the Gunbai? Darksusanoo (talk) 01:38, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Even if it is a barrier technique, which I still think isn't, the gunbai isn't required, because we've seen Madara performing the technique without employing the gunbai in 612, when the Kumogakure group uses Lightning Release and Storm Release. Madara uses it to block one the Storm Release beams that would hit him. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:41, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Now that sempai in chapter 612 is the Preta Path, and even if it wasn't that has nothing to do with this. We don't see the beam get redirected or blocked, it looks like it's being absorbed...Madara did the same hand motion to block Naruto's Rasenshuriken when he was first revealed to have the Rinnegan, and to absorb one of Onoki's Dust Release techniques, don't you remember? Darksusanoo (talk) 01:47, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * I see no hint of chakra absorption in that to believe that to be Preta Path. The aura is very close to Madara's body, and then extends along his arm. Why does the beam have to be redirected? Susanno is certainly strong enough to resist the beam, which would hit, and then the beam would dissipate. The only flow of chakra happening in that scene in 612 is the aura going from Madara to his arm, making the shield. The flickering of chakra closer to Madara's body is identical to Susanoo. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:09, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Even if by some reason you're right sempai, one situation has nothing to do with the other. In one we see Madara using a weapon and creating a dark colored barrier to block a pure physical attack and in the other using the exact same motion as he uses for the Preta Path on two previous occasions to defend from a chakra-based blast. Darksusanoo (talk) 02:17, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Dark, it looks like the Gunbai was used the first time indeed... also what's the sound effect in 612 when it happens?--Elveonora (talk) 02:18, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * A dark coloured barrier, with the same flickering and shading as Susanoo. The entire point of that particular strike was to blind them. Would you use a technique that absorbs chakra, and just that, or would you use a technique which blocks chakra and physical attacks? Even when the barrier he used with the gunbai was extended, that looked like a Susanoo aura. Sound effects are beyond me. Preta Path never looked like flickering flames. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:26, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * The Uchiha Battle Flame is also a dark colored, flickring barrier but it has nothing to do with Susanoo...plus Madara's chakra was stated over and over to be very dark and when Madara blocked the Storm Release attack he used an identical motion to his use of Preta Path. As for sound effects we'll have to wait for the anime. Darksusanoo (talk) 02:31, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Uchiha Kaenjin is very flat, and the flicker quickly vanishes, giving place to a very stable appearance. Madara's barrier kept on flickering while it was active. I'm pretty sure Madara's dark chakra is dark as in evil. If chakra colour is different between people, and that is the reason Susanoo looks different between users, Madara's chakra colour is pale blue, per volume cover. And I'm pretty sure Kurama described it as evil and malicious, not as dark. Nagato as an Edo showed us motion isn't required for Preta Path, mere focus is. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:11, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Nagato didn't but Madara did, on at least two separate occasions, and Nagato's Preta Path also used his hands, to absorb Jiraiya's Giant Rasengan. Plus there are two volumes with Madara's Susanoo and both have different colors (volumes 58 and 62), soo you can't base yourself by that. And again we still have two different situations where in one Madara was using a weapon and on the other he was not. Darksusanoo (talk) 03:23, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * The Susanoo on volume 58's cover is Itachi's. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:45, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry my bad i meant volume 59, the one where you see Madara's crimson Susanoo, with Sasuke's EMS on the background. Darksusanoo (talk) 20:02, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * That's a fake image. The drawing is obviously not Kishimoto's, and the title is the same of volume 58's. Compare the image with the cover of volume 58 we have. You can see that the kanji are the same. Go here actually. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:16, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well fuck now i fell face first (xD). Even soo we still have enough material to restate the technique article, we done the same for less data. Darksusanoo (talk) 20:37, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Well then why not reach a conclusion once and for all. I believe that given that give the entire situation that this is a weapon derived technique, not a Susanoo aplication at all. If Madara's Susanoo had a shield maybe i could believe otherwise. Darksusanoo (talk) 22:01, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * And I believe it was an application of Susanoo. We'll have to agree to disagree. I did all the proper steps to ensure that anyone who wanted to oppose the deletion of the article could do so before I went ahead and did it. Too little to late for change of heart as far as I'm concerned. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:48, December 27, 2012 (UTC)

Lol, the article can and likely will be created again nevertheless.--Elveonora (talk) 23:52, December 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * I am on the side of Susanoo. I believe Obito gave the Gunbai to Madara because 1) it belongs to him and 2) for the Uchiha Return, could be Obito doesn't know how to do it (kinda unlikely) or Kishi wanted to give Madara something to do (more likely XD). Madara being the most proficient know user of Susanoo makes the "aura theory" well within the realm of possibility/likelihood. Lastly, the simplest explanation is usually the best explanation IMO. Arrancar79 (talk) 00:52, December 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * You talk about the simplest explanation yet your own is even more complex than mine...your basically saying this is a never before seen aplication of Susanoo yet we see none of the characteristic traits of Susanoo, there's simply nothing there to say it's Susanoo other than a dark aura in a black-and-white manga. On the other hand what i'm saying is that this is a weapon technique, being used by a weapons master, using his trademark weapon. Darksusanoo (talk) 01:13, December 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * A large chakra aura of Susanoo strong enough for his defensive purpose without the need to for the bones as opposed to a new un-named technique is the more simple/likely explanation to me. We all must admit that without a databook or it being used again with a name or explanation we are speculating, every one of us. For that reason I'm hesitant to agree to making a new jutsu. I respect the argument against "just Susanoo" but I just can't make that leap. Arrancar79 (talk) 01:34, December 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * Let's re-work the steps...Naruto in a rage throws the giant stakes onto Madara and Obito, Obito's first reaction, instead of evading them or letting them phase through him, is to return the weapon to Madara. We see the dark chakra and then a literal circular wall with two panels showing that it's a wall of chakra, nothing more, plus the fact that when we see the barrier, Madara has his gunbai in a deliberate blocking position and after it dissipated there was still chakra pouring out of the weapon, showing it was used as the medium. Re-check the chapter if you want. Darksusanoo (talk) 01:42, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

But:
 * Madara taught Obito all super-duper Uchiha techniques, by returning Madara the Gunbai, Obito must have known that Madara can do this mysterious jutsu no thingy
 * Then why didn't Obito use this barrier by himself?
 * Obito can't do Susanoo
 * We are at home, it's Susanoo being channeled through a medium, BINGO!!!--Elveonora (talk) 02:12, December 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well:


 * Maybe because Madara didn't teach him everything so that's why he could use the gunbai as that.


 * And why would Susanoo need being channeled through a weapon? Darksusanoo (talk) 02:21, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

No idea, just trying to make Omni sensei happy lol. I was for it's removal, and now I'm for it's restoration... interesting how things turn out ._. tho the Gunbai appears to be magic 0_0 it reflects stuff with Uchiha Return so I don't see why it shouldn't have more powers--Elveonora (talk) 02:43, December 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * What i don't get is this obsession to chalk this up with Susanoo, could you enlighten me? With what proof? A dark-colored aura? Darksusanoo (talk) 03:31, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

Susanoo is nothing more than MS user's chakra turned solid/shaped into a physical manifestation. Sasuke also did an aura without any bones created... so since Susanoo is chakra, it should be possible to channel it through something with chakra flow?--Elveonora (talk) 05:58, December 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * But Sasuke never used the aura as defense, it only served as prelude for Susanoo. Besides why would anyone need to chakra flow a Susanoo, which is pretty much the Uchiha equivalent of a tailed beast, through a weapon? If they needed to defend themselves, why not bring out the regular thing? Madara's Susanoo is pretty strong, and everytime he needed to defend himself he would use the ribcage like any other user. It's like @Darksusanoo says, this looks more like a weapons technique than anything else. 188.81.251.122 (talk) 13:38, December 28, 2012 (UTC)

Anyone else care to throw their two cents? Darksusanoo (talk) 17:23, December 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * Why not just reach a decision plz? 188.81.251.122 (talk) 00:37, December 29, 2012 (UTC)

One does not simply reach a topic conclusion without Cerez having the final say in it--Elveonora (talk) 01:10, December 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Is this some kind of a joke? this wiki should be able to handle something without this cerez guy. And why should he has the final word? is he some kind of ultra admin who rules this wiki alone? C'mon guys....79.223.71.244 (talk) 01:34, December 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * Yeah, he is a tyrant around here.
 * Simply because it's us, 3-4 folks arguing, and more people stating their opinions will be crucial in decision-making--Elveonora (talk) 01:58, December 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * Plus the fact that @elveonora was being sarcastic and @cerez is one of the respected admins here and extra opinions are necessary, and the whole reason i started this to reverse this mistake of it being a Susanoo aplication soo yeah...Darksusanoo (talk) 02:05, December 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Soo @Cerez-Sempai and (who ever else wants to butt in) it's time for your grand entry. Darksusanoo (talk) 02:32, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

Alright, sure, why the hell not. This technique seems distinct from other techniques we've seen because:-

1. The Preta Path technique doesn't stop physical attacks, only absorbs chakra based ones and even then, always appears as a circular shape around the user. So that's that out.

2. While I have seen many susanoo thus far, Madara's in particular, as seen on page 4 of 588 seem to possess a more liquid consistency and solid blades which broke off in Tsunade as opposed to the spectral sort of flame thing that Sasuke's normally appears as. More importantly, every defensive measure with Susanoo does involve manifesting it. Even at it's earliest, whilst not initially visisble, Itachi used it's ribcage to survive Kirin. It just bares no similarity to a Susanoo technique.

Now that that's covered, I can tell you this, what is does remind me of however, is another Sharingan technique. It reminds me of Blaze Release and Sasuke's Kagutsuchi. I'm not suggesting we list this as such, but I wouldn't put it past Madara at this point to have those skills too. Still, the fact remains that while it bears similarity to other techniques we've seen in the Uchiha arsenal, Susanoo doesn't appear to be one of them especially since there is no precedent for applying it like this. Using Ockham's Razor, the best we can do is say that is is a chakra flow based barrier technique and leave it's parentage to further explanation. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 03:03, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

I guess it's settled, the way it was before deletion is the least speculative and harmful--Elveonora (talk) 03:51, December 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * The way it was before said that it required the gunbai, which isn't the case per chapter 612, which I have yet to find any evidence of chakra absorption. I'm even looking up what characters are used for the SFX in the raws, comparing them between previous uses of both Preta Path and Susanoo. Online raws are rather limited. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 04:40, December 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay, no. I just looked at chapter 612, which you keep citing. That is most definitely, without a doubt, the Preta Path, which would make it a separate technique from the one used by the Gunbai. You can see' the dome shape forming around him in two separate panels, and we know Preta Path can'' be used with hand gestures, as Nagato's Asura Path did it against Jiraiya's Rasengan. The second panel even shows the remnants of the Storm Release as it is finished being absorbed. Revive the Gunbai Barrier technique. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 04:54, December 30, 2012 (UTC)

The last piece of evidence we need is to translate the effect sound--Elveonora (talk) 04:56, December 30, 2012 (UTC)