Talk:Jūgo

decision time
Continuing here from the super long topic at Senninka's page. So can we just list Jugo as a user of Sage Mode or merge the two and call it a day?--Elveonora (talk) 11:48, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * ...So Jugo is a sage now?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:43, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * ...No. Only those who've mastered the Sage Mode (either through Naruto-like training or Kabuto-like means) are sages. Those who can knead Senchakra, but can't enter Sage Mode because they don't have the right body or loose control over themselves, aren't sages. Seelentau 愛議 12:50, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * I also say no. Isn't a Sage someone who was taught Senjutsu or perhaps trained it by himself even? Other than having Senjutsu chakra, Jugo doesn't know any "Sage Technique:" or "Sage Art:" not to mention he doesn't even know how to absorb natural energy since his body does it for him. He is as much of a Sage as Curse Mark wielders are, save the fact he manipulates the Senjutsu chakra himself to use Sage Transformation, which is a Sage Mode--Elveonora (talk) 12:54, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Seel, I don't think it's about mastery, otherwise Jiraiya wouldn't be a Sage.--Elveonora (talk) 12:55, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Mastery as in "opposed to whatever Jugo's and Orochimaru's problem is", not in "complete and perfect control". Sage Transformation can be used to enter Sage Mode, yes. This means, we have three ST user: Kabuto, Jugo (+ clan) and Obito (somewhat unclear), but only Kabuto can also use Sage Mode. Seelentau 愛議 13:01, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

Since Sage Transformation is an extension of Sage Mode, that in my opinion is enough to list him as a user. For status, short story is, Jugo can mold Senjutsu chakra himself. It's arguable if that is enough to classify him as a Sage--Elveonora (talk) 13:04, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Seel, for some reason you consider only those who perfectly balance Senjutsu chakra as true Sage Mode users. But that isn't a requirement, otherwise Jiraiya again wouldn't be a user--Elveonora (talk) 13:05, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sage Transformation is what the special bodies do to Jugo and his kin (as stated by Jugo). If one has gained control over his body at the Ryuchido (as stated by Kabuto), he can use the Sage Transformation to enter Sage Mode (as stated by Kabuto). Kabuto can do so, Jugo can't. Kabuto is a sage, Jugo is not.
 * It isn't a requirement, yes. But I never stated that it is. Of course he's a sage. Seelentau 愛議 13:10, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

Again, we consider Jiraiya a user of Sage Mode. Jugo isn't any different from him, he can create Senjutsu chakra but can't completely balance it, therefore when he uses Sage Transformation he is by all means using Incomplete Sage Mode as well--Elveonora (talk) 13:14, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * He is different from Jiraiya in terms of how he absorbs natural energy. Really, I think if it wasn't for Jūgo's body, he'd be an imperfect sage, too. But there's the difference between accessing sage mode through normal means, like Naruto and Jiraiya do, and accessing it through a modified body, like Jugo and Kabuto do. Seelentau 愛議 13:20, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * How they absorb natural energies is a determining factor if they are of Sage status or not, not if they are using the mode itself. Jugo still has to mold Senjutsu chakra and doing so makes him enter Sage Mode, or rather Sage Transformation hence special bodily fluids. By the same logic, each time Shima&Fukasaku were absorbing natural energy for Jiraiya, he wasn't in those instances user of Sage Mode. Molding and manipulating Senjutsu chakra = Sage Mode, it's not about knowing how to absorb natural energy, but that's how I see it--Elveonora (talk) 13:52, March 6, 2014 (UTC)