Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-30966312-20180413200754/@comment-33286580-20180524063023

i am glad i saw this soon rather than late or it would be lost in all the posts...

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: @Nashikeine It's never stated Naruto or Sasuke became Hagoromo level.

Yin Kurama said so in 696 when Sasuke absorbs the chakra of all the biju.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: In fact, it makes no sense to me that they are. Remember that Hagoromo and Hamura together defeated Kaguya after months of fighting. SPSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke needed outside help to do it and could have lost in several instances.

Yes. SPSM Naruto and Rinegan Naruto could have lost to Kaguya on multiple occasions. agreed.

but i am talking about their power level when they fought each other, wherein they went beyong their powers. Enhanced Susanoo and Sage Asura Mode. neither was used against Kaguya

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: And yes, Sasuke had extra Tailed Beasts, but he didn't flat-out become the Jinchuriki. He just absorbed a lot of their power.

indeed he didnt become Jinchurki. he absorbed their power and that power according to Yin Kurama got him around Hagoromo level.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: It's made clear by the series by the Ten Tails that is a lot stronger than all the Tailed Beasts that go into making it.

yes. it also has its body which is quite strong too.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: For example, we know that Naruto in Kurama Avatar could go head to head with 6 Tailed Beasts without much difficulty. Then, as soon as an incomplete form of the Ten Tails in its first form, it absolutely demolishes Naruto, Bee, Kakashi, and Guy at the same time. The only thing the Ten Tails had that the 6 Tailed Beasts were missing were 1 Tailed Beast and only portions of Chakra from the Nine and Eight Tails.

SPSM>>>>>>>>>>BM

in BM even with all help Naruto could not hurt the Juubi, but with SPSM and without even the cloak he literally killed Madara and cut the tree.

the power up is enormous. he could easily stand up to Jubi and destroy in in SPSM

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: One difference is that the Ten Tails is the agrigate of all Tailed Beasts, while the Bijuu themselves are separated. So, that's the only solution for the insane power gap. So, the Ten Tails >>> all nine Tailed Beasts.

again. agreed.

so is the power up from BM to SPSM. it is even beyong the Jubi power up.

and then there is Asura Mode

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: Hagoromo, even without the Ten Tails, was still so strong that he was able to fight against Kaguya for entire months. Together, he (before he became the Juubi Jinchuriki) and Hamura (before he gained the Tenseigan) were able to seal Kaguya. So, Hagoromo and Hamura are showing superior feats to Naruto (defeating Kaguya by themselves while Naruto and Sasuke needed help from Sakura, DMS kakashi, and DMS Obito) while in depowered forms (Hagoromo didn't have the Juubi and Hamura didn't have the Tenseigan).

I also said that Hagoromo and Hamura are insanely powerful.

as for Naruto and Sasuke. they were still getting used to their new powers. it was clear from their fight when they were gradually growing and being accustomed to their powers. by adulthood they have complete control over their powers.

this is unlike Hagoromo and Hamura who trained for years with their powers.

And just so you know, Naruto was trading blow for blow with Kaguya's Eighty Gods Vaccum attack in terms of power.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: By feats alone, they are stronger than Naruto and Sasuke.

Indeed they are if you only take their battle into Kaguya into account.

Sasuke and Naruto showed greater powers after their battle with Kaguya you know. in their own battle and against fused Momo, especially Naruto.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: They're also narratively stronger as Naruto and Sasuke only have half the power of Hagoromo. And I'm not even sure if it's half, actually. Remember that even after this ghostly Hagoromo (who was just a ghost and didn't even ahve the Ten Tails, so he was weaker than his prime self) gave Naruto and Sasuke his power, he STILL had the Rinnegan and SPSM, so it's possible he actually gave less than half his power to each of them.

they recieved half of the power of Hagoromo. agreed.

and this half was from a Hagoromo who no longer was the TTJ. agreed.

but it was also the non TTJ Hagoromo that fought Kaguya.

so if Hagormo and Hamura were required to defeat Kaguya at her prime, that means they had each atleast half of her power. (they in sense should be close to her power level to even match with her, but just lets go with some basic maths). so that is half of Kaguya's power. so Naruto and Sasuke recieved 1/4 power of Kaguya.

this was power recieved from Hagormo and not the power of being the incarnations which would certainly add up to their powers.

Hagormo being ghost has nothing to do. the Six Paths Power trascends that. look at Obito for example. when he possessed Kakashi he gave him greater power.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: Remember that it was through his power that Naruto and Sasuke could seal Kaguya. So, Hagoromo is broken OP.

yeah. Hagoromo is OP.

it was indeed his power that sealed Kaguya, but this power was given to the two and they hold onto it.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: I don't think Naruto and Sasuke are at this level, at least not yet...

I am making Naruto go ultra mode with ASURA FORM and all.

indeed they are. or Naruto is. his base Rasengan killed a fused Momo, which was around Kaguya level or greater.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: And even though Hagoromo and Hamura were depowered against Kaguya, she was actually still very strong. Remember that Hagoromo and Hamura were her direct sons, so they inherited her powers. Hagoromo was so strong that he broke logic and awakened the Rinnegan through emotional trauma as if it was a Sharingan. He also learned Sage Mode in an instant and had Six Paths Sage Mode (the original user of it). Hamura had no feats, but he should have been relative to Hagoromo as well. After months of fighting, they finally defeated Kaguya.

They were first to be born with chakra and it was apparently stated somewhere. i think i talked a bit in detail about it before.

Most is anime filler.

even then this actually makes Hagoromo the strongest of the siblings. he passed half his power to the two which would actually be greater than 1/4

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: Getting another half of the Kyuubi doesn't double his overall power. It powers up all of his forms that have to do with the Kyuubi.

indeed it does.

Yin and Yang Kurama are equal in power. so that is adding 1 + 1 = 2. that essentially doubles Naruto's power. it also means more Senjutsu chakra can be absorbed.

since in this fight Naruto is essentially going all out, with Asura Mode and all.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: Naruto actually used BSM against Toneri. It wasn't KCM, because the other half of Kurama was still able to form a Kurama Avatar. If he was in KCM, that wouldn't be possible.

BM is going and becoming Kyubi chakra form all. he didnt so it was KCMSM.

he also released Kyubi to fight the statue so he could not go BM.

Also, both Yin and Yang Kurama have long since become one. he cannot and will not seperate them.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: When was it stated Toneri was on par with Hamura?

never stated. but going by logic, Hamura who had Tenseigan and chakra cloak, which Toneri achieved, he should be on the same level or close by.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: Even if Momoshiki was stronger than Kaguya (I have my doubts about that), it doesn't mean he has better immortality. Kaguya survived 9 Tailed Beast Rasen-Shuriken to the face and came out with scratch marks over her body. The only reason she went unstable was because the Tailed Beasts inside her reacted to the Tailed Beast attacks.

Momoshiki may not be, but fused Momoshiki was clearly on her level or greater.

the problem is indeed immortality, but if immortal can be killed why can't the other.

the nine Tailed beast Rasenshuriken isnt even the strongest attack in his arsenal. he showed greater fire power later on.

why do you just keep getting back at the Kaguya fight when Naruto showed greater feats later on.

this is Hokage Naruto vs Kaguya.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: The part about Chakra and all is head canon, but didn't Kaguya state she shared her Chakra with Hagoromo and Hamura? It's never stated they had their own Chakra or anything.

no. they were born with Chakra.