Board Thread:Naruto Discussions/@comment-34700383-20180829185752/@comment-34700383-20180907210653

LegionZero wrote: You can call it semantics but the databook is very specific about the termonology used to describe the results of the Coffin Seal versus SPSM.

There isnt a source that equates Sage Transformation and Sage Mode. If they were the same they wouldnt have 2 different names. And 2 different databook entries. Sage Transformation also has unique properties not found in Sage Mode users. The databook entry legitimately says that the form of Senjutsu achieved by Jugo's clan is called Sage Transformation. Sage Mode isnt used to describe this form at all[] The manga equates them. Juugo says Kabuto' and his own transformation are the same. Manga and databook also established how they each became sages. Kabuto mastered snake sage mode on his own after finding ryuchi cave and learning from the white snake sage. Juugo clan resides in ryuchi cave and developed a trait to passively absorb nature energy.

---Proof of Kabuto' Sagehood---

1. Konoha Hundred Leafs Collection No. 54

The Mysterious World Spread Out The Big Three Unexplored  "Sage"  Regions

The three big Summoning Animals, summoned by Konoha's proud Legendary Three Ninja ― Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru. They inhabit the "Myobokuzan", "Shikkotsurin" and "Ryuchido" which had great influence on the ninja world since ancient times. Therefore they're considered to be unexplored regions, and are said to be places still wrapped in many mysteries.

Ryuchido ⬅ ''' The place where Kabuto studied at the side of the White Snake Sage. '''

⬆ The Shikkotsurin is where Tsunade's and Sakura's Summoning Katsuyu lives.

Myobokuzan ⬆ Also called the "Mountain of Bewilderment". From Konoha, it's one month of walking away. 2. Sage Art: Inorganic Animation Spoiler: Senjutsu, Ninjutsu User(s): Yakushi Kabuto

Granting life to the inorganic earth!!

By filling the atmosphere with Natural Energy, this Sage Art can be used to enslave inorganic substances such as the earth. Amongst the various Sage Modes, only those who have mastered the Sage Art of Ryuchi Cave  are allowed to wield it. As the earth is infused with life, a pulse violently courses through its blood vessels, causing it to swell outward. The ground, as well as the walls and ceiling, begin to rumble like a living organism. The spines protruding from its flesh walls can be manipulated in order to impale an opponent.

Caption: Stretching freely as if made of clay, the cavern's interior transforms. The unpredictable movement of the converging floor and ceiling even caught Itachi, genius of the Uchiha, off guard.

3.

4.

---Proof of Juugo' Sagehood--- Page 106, Jugo

Kana: 重吾 (ジュウゴ) Databook romanisation: JYUUGO

Village: Otogakure Rank: ―

Ninja registration number: ― Birthday: 1st October (19 years old, Libra) Height: 202.1 cm • Weight: 75.8 kg • Blood type: AB Personality: My pace, cowardly, brutal

Natures: Wind, Earth, Water, Yang  Classification: SAGE

Favorite He prefers the nature and animals that let his mind rest. With the Curse Seal strengthening his hearing, he also enjoys talking to the animals!!

When he keeps the arrangement of heaven and earth in his body '''He cannot resist becoming a grotesque looking SAGE!! '''

Guhahahahaha, I'll kill you all!!

⬆ Directly distributing his chakra and flesh, he saves a dying Sasuke's life. He's also capable of doing things that exceed human knowledge.

You can't die... because you're Kimimaro's memento

'''A descendant from a clan with a unique genetical make-up. Taking in the natural energy that's overflowing the earth, he turns into a brutal "SAGE".... ''' As a friend and patron of Sasuke, who is Kimimaro's memento, he swears to risk his life for his protection and his feelings. Therefore, Jugo won't ever forgive those who stand in the way of Sasuke's will. To burn Sasuke's way of life into his eyes, Jugo struggles through the tumultuous ninja world

As I said, databook and manga evidence proves them as sages and equates their forms. I accept your concession.

LegionZero wrote: Madara/Obito wouldnt need prior training because yes, the Juubi provides SP Senjutsu. But that doesnt mean it is the only possible way to achieve it. Evidence of another source is where?

LegionZero wrote: Chakra itself was the only accessible through the fruit of the God Tree, until Hagoromo and Hamura were born with it. They were actually born with 6 Paths Chakra. Let me stop you right there. Before chakra production was taught(and even after), the populace had energy called stamina. That stamina is used for chakra production, in both ninshu and ninjutsu. Prior to ninshu people lacked knowledge of chakra and chakra production. That's why it wasn't around until kaguya ate the shinju fruit.

Also what evidence is there that hamura has rikudo chakra? And if he does why hasn't his own power produced a single rinnegan or a mere sharingan, in over 1000 years including his descendants?

LegionZero wrote: Much like Hashirama they could have learned to take in natural energy to form SPSM. Hagoromo was also friends with Sage creatures who could have taught him about Senjutsu That's filler, hashirama sage mode is unexplained, and hagoromo' chakra and senjutsu alone failed to recreate rikudo senjutsu. Whereas a known power of rikudo chakra, the rinnegan, awakened automatically in an elderly madara and a 17 year old Sasuke. Likewise a known power of the juubi, rikudo senjutsu, automatically awakens inside those with enough of its own chakra. You are debunked.

LegionZero wrote: We dont discredit Hashirama's Sage Mode just because it was never explained how he learned it so why discredit Hagoromo/Hamura's unexplained SP Senjutsu. Its not like Hagoromo wasnt friends with Sage animals. His sage mode isnt discredited, it just cant be expounded on because like hamura we know nothing about how he awakened that power. If you dont know about eithers awakened power then how can you use it against me, or to support your claims? You can't.

LegionZero wrote: We saw what happened when Naruto got cought by the Juubi/Shinju this is probably why 6 Paths CT is an instant win technique. I don't see your point.

LegionZero wrote: Obito took Senjutsu chakra from Juubidara and he himself had 6 Paths chakra but did not have SPSM or SP Senjutsu. Obiti took 'some sage power' and automatically spawned a TSO, thats evidence of some measure of rikudo senjutsu.

LegionZero wrote:There is also precedent where chakra absorbers didnt gain Senjutsu by absorbing senjutsu chakra. Preta Pain gained no amps from absorbing Senjutsu chakra It was made clear that the path took in too much and didn't balance that energy. Which is comparable to obito' initial jinchuriki form and kaguya' unstablized juubi which she turned into an ETSO. LegionZero wrote: Madara did gain Sage Mode by absorbing Hashirama's chakra into his Hashiboob. Its questionable if he would have been able to do so if he didnt have such intense body modifications. Madara used his already existing hashirama power to gain sage mode. Keeping the sage mode active is a feat in itself. LegionZero wrote: I see your point here, but Sasuke combined all of the Bijuu's chakra into Susanoo and he didnt have SP Senjutsu Susanoo. Kurama himself confirmed that he was doing what Hagoromo did to split the Tailed Beasts but in reverse and was using Susanoo as the vessel for the combined chakra.(ch 696) The susanoo containing juubi chakra was never sealed inside sasuke like the actual juubi was inside Madara and obito and hagoro, nor was it like the small amount of juubi chakra that was produced inside naruto. The juubi chakra in Sasuke' susanoo remained outside his body. In every instance where rikudo senjutsu is used, juubi chakra is inside the person. That's the difference.

LegionZero wrote: Except there is never any mention of a second Juubi chakra. We know that a second mass of Bijuu chakra will create a duplicate of that Bijuu, but its clear that all of the bijuu chakra inside Naruto remained as seperate entities.(ch 673, 674, 688, 696) Novel scan says Naruto was essentially a host for the juubi. I explained that significance already. I wont argue in circles.

LegionZero wrote: This is like saying using Water release and lightning release at the sametime is using Storm Release. It is possible to have all 9 without combining them into 1 Multiple sources confirmed the cooperation and mixing of those chakra, I proved that already as well.

LegionZero wrote: To me his eyes match the dark yellow outlines of his cloak. Probably done so whe can actually see his eyes considering KCM1 Naruto's eyes were barely visible. Is there a color version of the Boruto manga/7th hokage gaiden? I want to see how it was handled in the manga. This is another concession, his eyes were already explained. Color of cloak to that degree is in the realm of nitpicking.

LegionZero wrote: I never said that he could get more on his own. My point was he had their chakra, just not a lot, and if he wanted he could talk to the other bijuu. Hokage Naruto lacks feats of speaking to other biju and as i said to there is no evidence of any other biju sending naruto more chakra, nor any of a chakra transfer like what obito did. He doesn't have their cooperation. This proves beyond all doubt that hokage Naruto only uses kurama.

LegionZero wrote:The 4th databook SPSM entry shows the yellow/cross pupil form that first appeared in 672 and the cloaked version in 673 The OP warns about the dangers of misinterpretation and disregarding context, yet you continue to do so. Thats the source of your confusion. Plus the databook page makes no mention of his eyes. Good news is l already explained his eyes.

LegionZero wrote: The Last guidebook doesnt confirm they are the same mode. The last guidebook says he has Kurama Mode and can use it with Sage Mode at the same time [] this form first appeared in 645 It does equate their forms and soon after it's first appearance during the war it was used with sage mode. Just like in the guidebook page.

LegionZero wrote: When Hamura's golem first attacked Naruto was jumping about when he activated Sage Mode. Naruto enters sage mode while running in gaiden chapter 700+3 page 11. You're debunked, again.

LegionZero wrote: The image of him kicking the TSB was him with the yellow-cross pupils. If this wasnt considered SPSM it wouldnt be on the page. How am i a hypocrite if that form is acknowledged with an image on the page? You're ignoring the description of the image, you know, the part that tells you what you're actually looking at. It's like you've never read a newspaper or textbook or even a map? I guess you pretend to know what those images mean also? A lack of context is why you continue to be wrong.

LegionZero wrote: Naruto didnt even have the chakra of all the Tailed Beasts chakra when Hagoromo said certain conditions were met so he could not have been talking about having all the Tailed Beasts chakra.

Hagoromo wasnt talking about Tailed Beasts at that point at all. Hagoromo wouldn't have agreed with kurama if that were true.

LegionZero wrote:Hagoromo started talking about the history of Kaguya, himself, and his sons and how Madara was seeking to end the world. Then he made a request of Naruto to stop Madara. You conveniently skipping over major details. Like how hagoromo 'battled ten-tails, an incarnation of the divine tree and sealed it inside him, how he later 'partitioned the power of ten-tails and named each of the peices' and how ashura gained power through cooperation, and how he 'believed that the bond known as cooperation was true power'. and how he sees naruto as 'quite similar to ashura. Dont skip facts that inconvenience you. Iirc, you called it 'fluff' from the databook.

LegionZero wrote: He didnt fulfill the prophecy. He had yet to change the world. Hagoromo believed him to be the one to do it but this had nothing to do with the "conditions" from the chapter earlier. Hagoromo believed in cooperation, Naruto being able to namr each biju meant he had theirs at that point. You are debunked, again.

LegionZero wrote:You mean the chapters i cited that confirmed the chakra was there just very very tiny? But still there. Yea, the same ones that made you concede.

LegionZero wrote: Never said he did i just he had some but it was tiiiiiiny. I conceded nothing because the definition you chose is wrong according to the novel. Actually you did concede, unless you have evidence of 1-8 tails giving chakra to and cooperating with hokage Naruto?

LegionZero wrote: Hagoromo materialized himself and his TSB from the afterlife. Those TSB are not new.

Obito manipulated Black Zetsu's body in a manner similar to TSB. You can literally see the bits of Black Zetsu coming off.

Madara doesnt have all of Kaguya's abilities. So even though she could do it doesnt mean he can. Hagoromo needing Madara' torso debunks that. If the power was akread in him he could manifest himself like Obito did right after he turned into a pile of ash.

Can you cite a similar feat from black zetsu to support your claim?

Kaguya did make a new 1, it was even superior to the former version, and she used his TSO-less body to make it.

LegionZero wrote:Its Naruto's dominant hand. Naruto displayed this healing ability in the Boruto movie. You're wrong, Naruto didn't use yin-yang to heal Sasuke's flesh. When he gave out 40 thousand chakra cloaks he was fojng way more healing than that. Debunked, again.

LegionZero wrote:That is a fallacy. Thats like saying Hashirama doesnt have Sage Mode because it was never revealed how he learned it. Or that Madara doesnt use a gunbai because we never saw how he obtained it The only fallacy here is you association fallacy. No one denies those feats. What youre failing to grasp is your own incapability to explain them. You dont have the context to do so. You have nothing to support any claims you make about how either of them attained those powers.

LegionZero wrote: He and Hagoromo using a SP Senjutsu technique on Kaguya. You've failed to prove rikudo senjutu is rikudo chakra numerous times. Either cite irrefutable evidence or admit your claims have no base in truth.

LegionZero wrote: Because he inherited the Byakugan from Kaguya and Hagoromo inherited the Rinnegan. Then those are different chakra. Thats like saying senju chakra is same as uchiha chakra, or ashura chakra is the same as indra chakra. Smh.

LegionZero wrote: Them using SP Chibaku Tensei to seal her. Later on Hamura had TSB How does that prove juubi' power wasn't used?

LegionZero wrote:Except in the Last Naruto had toad Sage Markings at a time when he couldnt have possibly gathered that energy himself But he did, because he could, and his eyes prove that.

LegionZero wrote: Hagoromo and Hamura used CP Chibaku Tensei to seal Kaguya. (Hamura) was the younger brother who sealed the Jyuubi together with his older brother Hagoromo. Hamura became the head of the Otsutsuki clan after the battle. In order to stand guard at the sealed Jyuubi’s essential body (/vessel), which is the Gedou Mazou that was produced by the “Rikudou Chibaku Tensei”, he and his clan migrated together towards the moon.[] Six Paths Chibaku Tensei is invoked when two users simultaneously touch their target with the "Yin" and "Yang" seals. It rips a giant chunk of earth up and turns it into a heavenly body, becoming the Prison of Six Paths (六道の獄 Rokudō no Goku) that can capture all things (万物捕, "banbutsuto"). '''It's a sealing jutsu that can be used by individuals who awaken Six Paths Senjutsu. '''[] Dont give me attitude because Kishimoto gave us the what and not the how. None of that, I repeat NONE OF THAT STATES HOW HE AWAKENED RIKUDO SENJUTSU.
 * Ch 690
 * Hamura's databook entry
 * 6 Paths Chibaku Tensei Entry

You're skipping to the finish line without showing any of the running. You're presenting a cake without showing any of the recipe. Stop telling me about the end result when I'm asking for the process. We all know hamura awakened rikudo senjutsu. The issue is his method. Since you admitted to not knowing how, it's moot. You don't have nor can you cite a second source of that power. You have to concede, and I thank you for doing so.