Talk:Ten-Tails

Kaguya's Will
The Shinju itself was never malevolent, but it was Kaguya's will that was there the entire time since the Ten-Tails was revived. The Shinju only took chakra when Obito summoned it due to her will. The voice in the Shinju speaking to Madara was Kaguya's. When the Ten-Tails saw Hagoromo when seeing the tailed beasts chakra in Naruto, it was Kaguya who got mad and made the Ten-Tails bulk up (Cause she hates her sons). When Hagoromo sealed the Ten-Tails in the moon, he ended up sealing Kaguya's will as well (Meaning her will was already there in the Zetsus when Madara reawakened them). Simply put, Kaguya's will was there as long as the Ten-Tails was. Also, since Kaguya was controlling the Ten-Tails the whole time, that means she was a jinchuuriki the whole time (Not a pseudo). Anyone disagree? WindStar7125 (talk) 07:51, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * ... what do you guys read? From both translations I understood that she is the Ten-Tails, so she can't be a jinchuuriki because she is a Tailed Beast.--Elveonora (talk) 13:26, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * It literally said Kaguya's will is what the Ten Tails acted on. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 16:19, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because Kaguya is the Ten-Tails...--Elveonora (talk) 17:17, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

Shinju and Ten-Tails
I think it's safe to conclude they're not one and the same. With the new chapter and that they were separate at one point with the Ten-Tails inside Madara and the Shinju still where Obito planted it.Cloudtheavenger (talk) 08:11, June 18, 2014 (UTC) Didn't the latest chapter confirmed that Juubi is what became of Kaguya when she ate the Fruit and not the Shinju itself? Maybe the new-born Juubi absorbed Shinju as well, but it doesn't make them the same being.Faust-RSI (talk) 07:40, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

The Jubi is a manifestation of her will to take back the chakra that her sons held.Cloudtheavenger (talk) 08:38, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * the only change in the story is the reason the Shinju went out and started murdering things. The Ten-Tails and the tree being the same did't. especially since we watch the Ten-Tails become the tree.-TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 08:45, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * facepalm* Except it never become the tree, Shinju and Juubi existed separately since Obito spawned the tree and the beast was still inside him. Faust-RSI (talk) 08:49, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * What Faust said. Read the newest chapter.Cloudtheavenger (talk) 08:50, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * 'Read the newest chapter.' Well this started swimmingly. And that tree, was stated to an extension of his body after so. Why didn't it disappear? It's a giant broken tree with an eye. I don't pretend to understand that kind of chakra bs. But until stated otherwise, as I stated, the only thing that has changed is the why the Ten-Tails appeared, not that at the very base, it was originally a tree.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 09:10, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Also, because I'm a spiteful bastard. Unless it actually says something different, the chapter directly states that the Ten-Tails wasn't just the Shinju, but also Kaguya's pissed off will. Meaning yeah, it was a tree.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 09:18, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

@Uli, I understood it as that the Ten-Tails is a literal merger of the Shinju and Kaguya, not that just her will made it transform--Elveonora (talk) 13:27, June 18, 2014 (UTC)


 * Same thing in the end. Be it Kaguya merged with the Shinju to turn it into the Ten-Tails or just threw her will at it, the tree got up, grew a mouth, and started eating things. Though if she was totally the Ten-Tails, I doubt she would require a resurrection, but then again chakra is screwy.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:38, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, both panda and stream say they merged, we may need a raw for that. If true, then it definitely isn't the same thing, because that makes her a Tailed Beast--Elveonora (talk) 13:54, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * You're gonna spark a lot of fanfictions if we confirm one of the tailed beasts has a human, female form. On topic, I'd have to agree though. The way it was talked about would lead many to believe that she is at least a part of the Ten-Tails. Atrix471 (talk) 14:12, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * BZ said they sealed her after all--Elveonora (talk) 14:13, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

Created by Kaguya?
Am I missing something here? Why do several articles claim that Kaguya created the Shinju, using "materialised will" no less? This seems to stem from a misunderstanding. Black Zetsu said that along with the Shinju, Kaguya was part of the Ten-Tails, and that her will is the reason that it sought out chakra. In no way did he say that she created the Shinju itself. He didn't even say if she intentionally created (or became) the Ten-Tails.--BeyondRed (talk) 19:37, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not sure where do people get that from. What we were told is that Kaguya merged with the Shinju and became the Ten-Tails, yet for some reason people get things like Kaguya creating the Ten-Tails or something--Elveonora (talk) 19:49, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because as of now, there are two, slightly conflicting things said about this. One translation states that the Ten-Tails is the incarnation of her will (or some such) while another, while I'm not sure outwordly states they merged, refer to the Ten-Tails as Kaguya. Or some such.
 * So right now, I think a bunch of articles are fighting a battle over which is which.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 20:12, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * One translation states that Kaguya was part of the Ten-Tails and it carried her will, while the other actually states that her body became the Ten-Tails. Either way, neither claims she was involved in the creation of the Shinju, just its beast incarnation (Ten-Tails). If she actually created the Shinju itself, the entire story about the chakra fruit and such would be made completely invalid.--BeyondRed (talk) 20:20, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thats not at all true. The Shinju was originally the Tree that bore the chakra fruit that kaguya ate. Because kaguya had children, they too bore chakra. She wanted that chakra back and, through her godliness, created an incarnation of the Shinju Tree and herself to reclaim that chakra. The Sons sealed the Shinju inside of Hagoromo, unknowingly sealing their mother aswell. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 20:55, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

Proposal to Merge article with Kaguya's.
This is a proposal to merge the Shinju's article with Kaguya's. Any remarks? superlogan7437 (talk) 17:12, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes: Not gonna happen for at least the next five to ten chapters. We know waaaaaay too little about all that stuff. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:12, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Definitely not. While Kaguya seems to be much more related to its existence as the Ten-Tails, the Shinju existed by itself long before Kaguya came along. Same with Kaguya, who was her own entity before the eating the chakra fruit. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:55, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Bloody hell no.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:02, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * But once the raws are out/it is further clarified and gets confirmed that Ten-Tails = Shinju+Kaguya, still separate article or merged?--Elveonora (talk) 18:13, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Bloody hell no.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:15, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Italicized for emphasis.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:15, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Bloody nor hell are valid reasons.--Elveonora (talk) 18:18, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Patience is a virtue. WindStar7125  18:21, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hey, let's merge all character articles because they're all shinobi! • Seelentau 愛 議 18:57, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:59, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * And while we're at it, we can merge all chakra natures together since, hey, its just chakra. And if you really want to get technical, the tailed beasts are all just portions of the Ten-Tails, so let's merge them too. (Ok, I've had my fun. Off to get coffee). ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 19:06, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Can you approach something seriously once in a while? If the manga says that she is the Ten-Tails, then we should reflect that rather than trying to find a biased reason not to--Elveonora (talk) 19:42, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * But she isn't the Ten-Tails. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:43, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * It would be wiser to wait. It sounds more logical to merge the Demonic Statue's and the Shinju's article than to merge Kaguya's and the Shinju's to me.--JOA20 (talk) 19:45, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Seel, have you read the raws yet?--Elveonora (talk) 19:50, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, there aren't even raws for last weeks chapter. But the translation say that the Ten-Tails was partially her, not the other way around. She is not the TT, the TT is her (partially). • Seelentau 愛 議 19:54, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * How is that any different?--Elveonora (talk) 20:00, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * If a cake is partially poison, then it's a cake with poison in it. If poison is partially a cake, it's poison partially made of cake. Here we had the Jubi with parts of it being Kaguya (apparently), not Kaguya with part of the TT in her. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:04, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Other than saying no to this proposal, did most of you need to approach this with ridicule and sarcastic statements? It really wasn't necessary and some of you are sysops, it's not setting an example to anyone wanting to edit here. --SuperSajuuk Talk Page 20:08, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * I believe, Elve-kun is used to this kind of tone and knows there are no hard feelings involved. :) • Seelentau 愛 議 20:15, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sysops though some of us may be, we are also regular users, who like to use sarcasm and snark to get some of our points across. Its the only way to liven up otherwise tense arguments. Hell, Elve and I get into it with our debates, but I still have no problems with the guy. He should know this by now. I hope... >.> ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 21:11, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

@Everyone, not in mood for formalities today, so just hugs. @Seel, so you admit that the TT is part Kaguya. How is that not a reason for TT and Kaguya articles merger?--Elveonora (talk) 21:34, June 19, 2014 (UTC)


 * Because all the tailed beasts are part Ten-Tails and we all know that ain't happening.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 21:40, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, only their chakra is. Otherwise they are separate characters. Saying the Tailed Beasts are Ten-Tails is like saying Naruto is Ashura--Elveonora (talk) 21:53, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * The main reason for not merging those articles is: Both hold high significance in the plot on their own. It's like with Black and White Zetsu. What they did as stand-alone characters weighs more than what they did as merged characters. Also, what I said at the beginning: We know way too little about all that stuff. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:57, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Look, because I sense a long, long, debate about what should be obvious (we leave the articles separate), can we all just buy each other drinks and call it a day? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 22:04, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

As stated before and now clarified, the Shinju has no consciousness, it's just a magical tree. The mind of the Ten-Tails has been Kaguya, so keeping them separate is like stating she didn't exist until recently, while it was her the whole time. It was her getting angry at Naruto, it was her tearing apart Obito, it was her talking to Madara etc.--Elveonora (talk) 22:19, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * That was only part of her. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 22:22, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * The Shinju and Kaguya obviously aren't being merged, so exactly is being proposed here? Merging the parts about the Ten-Tails with Kaguya? Splitting the Ten-Tails into its own article?--BeyondRed (talk) 22:24, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, the Shinju is separate from Kaguya, but the Ten-Tails IS Kaguya. This article may need some serious reconstructing though--Elveonora (talk) 22:30, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then splitting Shinju Tree n Ten.Ts. yes. Merging Kaguya 'nd Ten.Ts. No. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 22:36, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Keeping Kaguya and Ten-Tails separate simply is completely illogical. That is like if we had Orochimaru in each of his host bodies as separate characters, chronicling his actions distinctively from each.--Elveonora (talk) 22:41, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Until the raw elucidates this matter more, no merger or split should take place. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:05, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * What is even more illogical is trying to stuff the exploits of giant tree, giant tree monster, and three-eyed pyschowoman into one article. Based as of now on flimsy translations. (Because I state for the third time today, only one translation I have read said that the Ten-Tails was "all her" as you seem to believe. The other stated that the Ten-Tails was "part her".) Add to that, as per the bullcrap that is the Zetsu articles, they have done enough to not be merged together. Merging this with Kaguya is unnecessary and stupid. Splitting it into three articles is even more so. What we have now works. Doesn't beat the readers over the head with convoluted nonsense, and is much much easier to manage for the editors.
 * That said, Omnibender is right. Until the raws come out, this conversation is over.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 23:07, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * And I patiently am waiting for the raws. I'm just arguing in advance. Convoluted to readers should be of no concern to us, rather what is true. If Kishi tells us that she is X and Y and so, we just have to document it--Elveonora (talk) 23:24, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

OMG, just one post and suddenly everyone in this wiki flips out.superlogan7437 (talk) 02:31, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

So now that the viz is out, may we finally split the "ten-tails" parts from the Shinju article and merge them with Kaguya's? Also at this point there's really no reason to have ten-tails and gedo mazo separated. "gedo mazo" is simply a nickname made by Madara given to the crippled form of beast Kaguya.--Elveonora (talk) 21:53, June 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * And yet Black Zetsu, who predates Madara, also calls it by that name. You still don't get why merging them is like merging all the tailed beasts, so I've given up trying to explain it, and will give you a flat no. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:58, June 23, 2014 (UTC)