Talk:Tobirama Senju

Chapter 681: Tobirama Disposing of Madara's Corpse
Hey, guys, I wanted to bring something up. Regarding the new information from the chapter that was added to Tobirama, are we absolutely sure that he was the one to dispose of Madara's corpse? The translations for MangaStream doesn't mention him at all, but MangaPanda's translations do. I don't trust MangaPanda like many others, so can someone clarify this for me? -- Ninja Sheik  23:23, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wow I didn't even see that. I say don't trust Mangapanda. I've seen them leave entire pages untranslated. I would vote that we omit the info until Seelentau can verify it. I thought it was odd that Tobirama couldn't tell his own technique was being used against him.--Cerez 365 ™Hyuga Symbol.svg(talk) 23:36, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * To be honest, both scanlations have had its fair share of mistranslations for a while now. If you want to know if the scanlation is good, know about the translation instead of the scanlation site. They don't necessarily always use the same translators. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:27, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Has this been added yet? At quick glance, I didn't see it--Elveonora (talk) 22:53, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Do we have a raw that actually says Tobirama did something with the corpse?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 22:58, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * I believe so. The viz said so in the least--Elveonora (talk) 23:06, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Good enough for me. Add it.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 23:08, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * We may also need an article for "Tobirama's laboratory hidden in forests"--Elveonora (talk) 23:27, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

Hand on wall
Make up your mind people. Twice today I've seen the cracking wall with hand being attributed to different things, namely chakra and physical strength. Resolve the issue here. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:28, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Why not both? "genius" but what about the finger thing? That's fishy--Elveonora (talk) 11:31, June 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * It did not look like he pushed, he barely even moved....to me, it looks like he used his chakra to crack the wall. Norleon (talk) 10:06, June 22, 2014 (UTC)

Revival
Bringing up old topics again :/ but what is the consensus here? Yesterday it was just back and forth weather he is just strong or it was chakra. What is the decision? --Youngjusticeplayer007 (talk) 14:53, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Either just released chakra to crack to wall or used chakra enhanced strength, but definitely not physical strength. If he were so strong that touching a wall would crack it, he would have had troubles going into bed, since it would break under him--Elveonora (talk) 15:32, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well i'll leave that in your hands weather it's chakra or chakra enhanced strength and i'll just edit his page when its open again or list him as a user.--Youngjusticeplayer007 (talk) 16:00, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * It actually can be raw strength. It was plainly stated that Tsunade has monstrous strength even without chakra enhancement.
 * Im not saying it can't be but im skeptical since its not something he's really known for, nor did he really ever show much physical strength again.--Youngjusticeplayer007 (talk) 16:58, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Steve, not as monstrous as you believe. She can crush rocks with her hand, but even that doesn't equal cracking a wall by gently placing a hand--Elveonora (talk) 17:07, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Look at her page, it clearly has said for years on the physical prowess section she is that strong.
 * So? The page isn't a valid source and is obviously wrong and should be corrected. What she did with the finger wasn't raw strength.--Elveonora (talk) 17:22, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * What's your explanation on Guy and A, who both use physical conditioning more than chakra boosting? I'm not saying Tobirama can lift tailed beasts or something, just that he has considerable raw strength. Lots of character show deceptive strength like this.
 * They are still human. Without the use of chakra or perhaps some kekkei genkai, their muscles are no different than ours. Guy is muscular for sure, but most his strength comes from Eight Gates. Even tho it isn't seen and he may not announce "gate open" each time, he uses the first game in the least each time he does a feat of supernatural strength. A is even more muscular and uses Lightning Armor to boost his strength to that point.--Elveonora (talk) 17:52, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * "Still Human". Then by that logic, they can't breath fire, create clones of themselves, etc. This is a cartoon, things get illogical and dramatized all the time. If Tobirama should a level of enhanced strength once, it doesn't create a whole new dimension for the entire show. Just cause we didn't see Tobirama exert his hand doesn't mean he didn't.
 * Those things you listed are done with chakra last time I checked. None of the hundreds generic ninja have super strength, confirms that humans in the manga normally can't create craters with muscles alone. Not sure why you try so hard to overhype things.--Elveonora (talk) 21:28, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * I am NOT trying to overhype anything. I just call it as I see it. Tobirama showed his chakra prowess when he intimidated Team Hawk and Orochimaru. When Tobirama talked about his true strength as a reincarnation, he said nothing about his chakra capacities. The Impure World Technique dilutes the summoned user's physical capacities, the chakra quality remains unchanged.
 * "the impure world technique dilutes the sommoned user's physical capacities, the chakra quality remains unchanged" and where did you get that from?--Elveonora (talk) 21:43, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * From the fact that they have unlimited reserves of chakra, as noted by Madara.
 * Unlimited chakra = chakra at full power--Elveonora (talk) 14:56, July 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Exactly. The reincarations' chakra is already at full power, but the physical prowess is just shy of it.
 * ... '_. I meant to write unlimited chakra =/= chakra at full power. There's no evidence at all for your claims.--Elveonora (talk) 15:38, July 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Chapter 591, page 17, Madara clearly said "limitless chakra".
 * Amount of chakra isn't the same as the chakra's power. When they get reincarnated weaker, it is with weaker chakra, not less physical strength.--Elveonora (talk) 18:54, July 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * This isn't like in Dragonballz where one's strength is directly linked to their physical might. Tobirama was talking about his might as a ninja.
 * Not sure about you, but I've lost interest in the argument halfway-through. Let's just focus on other matters, kay?--Elveonora (talk) 19:47, July 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Truthfully, I don't want to go to war about this either. I just don't personally agree with your view point of the matter. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying the way I saw it. It was just one brief demonstration and the show itself is dramatic. I say we put back in and see what others think.

As shown with Madara from him as an edo tensei, then him brought back with rinne tensei, the edo tenseis are still much weaker all together than their real life counterparts. Madara got BETTER in everything the moment he came back to actual life, he went from tying with Hashirama as an edo tensei, to beating Tobirama and Hashirama one on one. Not to mention he only had 1 eye when he beat Naruto, then beat Tobirama, then proceeded to one shot Sasuke's punk ass. Edo Tensei's are all at best, 75% of their full power. That includes speed, strength, and chakra/stamina. It is actually the main reason naruto and sasuke appeared so strong, they were contrasted with some edo tensei's who are weaker than their life counterparts by at least 25% and thats a good margin for theses Shinobi. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 11:35, October 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Even tho Edo Tensei aren't at full strength, their bodies are indestructible and they can't run out of chakra, so I'd say that evens it out. Edo Tensei can use "suicidal" moves as part of their tactics, like blowing themselves up etc.--Elve Talk Page 11:46, October 20, 2014 (UTC)

Game-Jutsus
Where are his Game-Jutsus?-- 22:30, June 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Click the jutsu link in his infobox, see every technique he's used in every medium we have an article on. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:35, June 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * The Game-Jutsus are missing in his Infobox :/ Like Mizu Bunshin no Jutsu-- 09:04, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Games are not canon, and as such game jutsu aren't canon, and don't show up in the infobox. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 11:57, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Anime-Jutsus arent canon too, but they show up...-- 14:37, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Anime follows the manga much more closely, and has much more of a plot than the games in general. Game and movie jutsu only show up when the character itself only appears in that medium. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:54, June 22, 2014 (UTC)

The Finger
I glossed the entire article and am unable to find a mention about that finger trick. Any info on a potentially related technique or the purpose of it? Artofcreation (talk) 09:22, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * There's no special meaning behind it. • Seelentau ? ? 10:26, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then why would Hashirama demand Tobirama to put down the finger?--Elveonora (talk) 15:30, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because it was a sign of action or so. Lke normal people clench their fists when they're getting angry. Buuut if you want to believe that Tobirama was about to use a special, dangerous, never before seen or mentioned Ubertechnique that begins with lifting the finger, do so. Hey, here's a sentence you can write in the article about that: When Tobirama was summoned by Orochimaru for the second time, he lifted a finger. Hashirama's demand to his brother to lower the finger indicates that Tobirama was about to use a highly dangerous technique.. :) • Seelentau ? ? 15:35, June 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Tobirama is badass, so a finger technique wouldn't be outta his character. My bet is a one-hand version of Thousand Years of Death--Elveonora (talk) 16:32, June 22, 2014 (UTC)

Ah, thanks Seelentau. I was thinking that if there was no actual technique involved, it was Kishi's way of advertising Tobirama's power. i.e. "Hey look at all my chakra and power! And I'm barely lifting a finger lol"... Kinda like Tsunada and her finger flick. Artofcreation (talk) 04:10, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * So wait, we can assume that the "ninjutsu canceling" Yin-Yang Release effects of the Truth-Seeking Balls are the result of a "special, dangerous, never before seen or mentioned Ubertechnique" that magically came out of our asses, but we can't assume that Tobirama was about to do something when lifting his finger specifically released a shit ton of chakra? Alright. Being the rational individual I am, I'm going to have to call you on that one. All of you. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 06:10, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Explain? I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to with the Truth-seeking Balls. If it's about how articles concerning it are named/written, then that is simply its own issue. Artofcreation (talk) 02:11, June 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't assume that, Fox. o.o And yes, Tobirama was about to do something when he lifted that finger: Showing his strength and intimidating the others. But no technique. • Seelentau ? ? 08:32, June 27, 2014 (UTC)

what the freaking hell?!?!?!
Can anyone explain to me where this comes from?
 * "Due to his Senju lineage, Tobirama inherited an extraordinary life force, as well as powerful physical energy and stamina"
 * "Due to the large amounts of chakra granted by his lineage, Tobirama was able to teleport both Naruto and Minato while in their respective Tailed Beast Modes on the battlefield without any noticeable exhaustion. Additionally, was still able to produce shadow clones despite his use of an extremely chakra taxing technique. His reserves and stamina where further displayed when after having his chakra depleted by the Shinju he was still able to follow it up with a powerful Water Release technique"

Where do people get BS such as that from? First:
 * 1) why do people attribute Ashura and Indra traits to all and every single last of their descendants? Is it really necessary to paste "inherited strong x and y and large z and d" into characters' articles to over-hype them?
 * 2) why do people attribute things such as stamina and large amount of chakra and other nonsense to Senju and Uzumaki despite no such things have ever been stated?
 * 3) edo tensei have unlimited chakra I thought?--Elveonora (talk) 19:08, July 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * First of all, control your tongue. Second of all, if you find overhype within an article, do what everyone else does and remove it, so long as what you're removing isn't a legitimately sourced example of Tobirama's abilities. It really is that simple. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 19:10, July 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Third of all, 90% of abilities sections are over-hyped :P But done, although there still is some to be cut with all the "and also"--Elveonora (talk) 19:23, July 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well I made those edits and I put those I in place because I assumed it was inherit with Senju lineage my mistake. In my defense however it was already on Tsunade and Hashirama's ability sections for some time before I did it. Also it means it might as well be taken off Tsunade's chakra since it says basically the same thing. And with the Edo Tensi Omnibender explained it as such: Edo Tensei simply regenerates the users chakra rapidly seemingly giving them "unlimited" chakra. here is a link to what he said: Talk:Summoning: Impure World Reincarnation. Anyhow his hypothesis seemed to be correct because we've seen limits of some reincarnated shinobi: Minato couldn't use FTG to save Naruto after he, Naruto and Tobirama had their chakra leeched. Second Mizukage lost a lot of chakra when he used his Steaming Danger Tyranny technique and he was noticeably winded. And probably the most obvious was with Four Red Yang Formation, Hashirama and Tobirama were limited in the amount of clones they can make but if they had this supposed "unlimited" chakra they wouldn't have been limited. --Youngjusticeplayer007 (talk) 19:31, July 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Children don't inherit everything their parents have, especially not 1000x grandchildren. We don't even known what life force is and what does it mean to have strong physical energy, so adding that to every Senju and Uzumaki shrieks of fanboyism. It should be removed everywhere you see it, unless it was directly stated in manga. And I understand the Edo Tensei ordeal. Their chakra can't go to 0 and regenerates back to full, but the volume of their chakra is the same as they had in life. So if they didn't have enough chakra to perform x in life, they won't do as zombies.--Elveonora (talk) 19:49, July 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Elveonora, although not directly stated, it is common sense. Why would all of Indra's descendants inherit his abilities (The Sharingan) but Asura's descendants don't inherit his? What kind of sense does that make? Indra inherited the sage's "eyes" and his powerful chakra and spiritual energy. While Asura inherited his father's "body" his powerful life-force and physical energy. If Indra's descendants got the "eyes" why wouldn't Asura's descendants get the "body". I mean, the Senju would need to have something special in order to be able to compete with the Uchiha and be able to defeat them anyway. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 16:06, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * But all of them don't inherit the stuff to the same degree. We can't just assume x Senju's lifeforce and physical energy are super duper strong just because he/she is a Senju. Take Uruchi Uchiha for example, I doubt she had "powerful chakra and spiritual energy" and even if Tobirama did, that's not a reason to add it there, people can work that out themselves--Elveonora (talk) 16:20, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well yes, but I don't see why assuming that strong members of the clan who were shinobi having inherited Asura's abilities is complete speculation. Uruchi Uchiha was probably not even a ninja and she could have married into the clan for all we know. I also never said to the same degree, but I still believe it is worth mentioning to some extent. Especially considering the Uzumaki have it and they come from Asura just like the Senju do, and they were even less powerful and not as relevant as the Senju were at all in any point in history. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 16:25, July 11, 2014 (UTC)

Shadow Clone Technique
Can someone add the Shadow Clone Technique under Tobirama's jutsus. I find it silly that the man created the technique and we've seen him use it, and he doesn't have it listed under his arsenal. Unfortunately, my skills with technology are about the same level as an old man's... --Aclarke9913 (talk) 17:18, July 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * That woud be nice. FlyingRaijinGod (talk) 06:17, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

The Flying Thunder God Technique
In the manga, it is not shown that Tobirama used a marked/tagged kunai to attack Izuna, where as in the anime it is. It is thought that Minato was the first to use marked/tagged Kunai for the technique, where in Naruto Shippuden episode 368 "The Era of Waring States" which takes long before Minato's time, Tobirama does so to injure Izuna. I believe this needs to be added, as this is an important bit of information. FlyingRaijinGod (talk) 09:25, August 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Tobirama did use a marked kunai against Madara in the manga as well. Madara also implied that Tobirama was well known for tricks like that, so it's nothing new in the end. Norleon (talk) 09:33, August 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not to mention thrown Kunai is the only way the scene makes sense, otherwise there wouldn't have been any other way to teleport to Izuna, unless he marked Izuna himself.--Elveonora (talk) 13:10, August 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Exactly! It was never shown or stated outright that he ever touched Izuna, it went out of it's way to specify the kunai as the seal source. I believe its important to credit Tobirama with because it /did/ happen. Fandom aside isn't it important to credit those who have earned that credit? you wouldn't leave out that Minato used Rasengan long before his son! FlyingRaijinGod (talk) 23:19, August 4, 2014 (UTC)

Seal
The anime went out of its way to show the seal on the kunai, i find it imperative that this be added to the wiki as i have tried a few times to no avail. Why? because it is common belief that Minato was the first to use marked kunai, which is INCORRECT. is it not the goal of these wiki's to be as accurate as possible? please do not take my adamacy for hostility. i'm a huge fan of the character and believe in credit where credit is due. FlyingRaijinGod (talk) 11:43, August 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * @FlyingRaijinGod, common belief of who? Fandom? They have right to belive what they want, this does not correlate with page in any of ways. If you have link(on this wiki) where it is stated that Minato was the first to use marked kunai, then edit it. Otherwise this can hardly find its place even in trivia due low value. Rage gtx (talk) 12:22, August 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * It's mentioned in the page that Tobirama used marked kunais too, he created the technique so of course he used marked kunai first i don't see why it's so important IMO.(Kuroiraikou (talk) 12:25, August 4, 2014 (UTC))
 * i find it important because it is often said Minato improved upon it by using tagged kunai, which is really no improvement at all as Tobirama did it first. This is my opinion which could totally be wrongly placed. Flying Raijin God 12:33, August 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Often said where i haven't seen it here, the technique allows the user to apply the seal anywhere applying it to a kunai first isn't noteworthy IMO.(Kuroiraikou (talk) 13:15, August 4, 2014 (UTC))
 * I would accept it even as trivia, if not considered significant enough for the main article by the majority. FlyingRaijinGod (talk) 23:21, August 4, 2014 (UTC)

Chakra Nature
Hey what is with qll these random natures? The Second Hokage only ever used water release he never displayed any other natures beside water this is really wrong. Does it state this in the databook becuase some of these natures don't go with these characters at all because they never used it in the manga or in the anime. Unless he has a kekkei genkai or tota, or mora. But, he has none of these plus it never stated he could use all natures in manga. --Tuxedo12 (talk) 15:15, November 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * All the clusterfuck that you may observe happening as of late is the cause of the 4th Databook. Sue the author Masashi Kishimoto if you would like.--Elve Talk Page 15:23, November 5, 2014 (UTC)

I know this may not matter much, but amidst all the randomness I think it'd be a pretty good idea to keep the chakra natures all these characters use the most at the top, so every page doesn't the same. In Tobirama's case, keep the Water Release icon at the top. What do you think?--Minamoto15 (talk) 16:35, November 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think we decided to list them in this order: Fire, Wind, Lightning, Earth, Water, Yin, Yang. If not, then it should be done. Or do you know which nature Sakura used more? No? Me neither. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:38, November 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * It was just a suggesstion, nothing more. Minus the snarkiness, I appreciate your information. Thank you.--Minamoto15 (talk) 16:46, November 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I'm in a bad mood today. ^^' • Seelentau 愛 議 16:50, November 5, 2014 (UTC)

Summoning
Since the databook says Tobirama had a summon should he be listed or is it just going to stay as is since we dont know weather it was just Edo Tensei or an entirely different summon?--Youngjusticeplayer007 (talk) 06:37, December 8, 2014 (UTC)

Time of death
I have to ask again: Was it ever stated that Tobirama died in the first or second NWW? • Seelentau 愛 議 16:38, June 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * In Danzo's flashback before his death (no idea if it was anime only or stated in manga), Tobirama apparently acted as a decoy and died then, before naming Hiruzen as Hokage. That must have been the 2nd Ninja War, although I could be wrong. --Sajuuk 17:02, June 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know of that, but it was never said to be in the first or second NWW. According to the fourth databook, it happened way later. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:12, June 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * Do any of the databooks state when Hiruzen was made Hokage? The only thing we know is when Tobirama died, and both anime and manga state that Hiruzen became Hokage straight after Tobirama pegged it. I'm more inclined to go with what a previous databook or anime/manga episode/chapter has stated, rather than the 4th db in this particular instance. --Sajuuk 17:20, June 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * Hence my question. I can't remember such a statement. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:34, June 30, 2015 (UTC)
 * Originally added by ShounenSuki. His edits around the time don't give an indication of where he might have gotten the information from, though.
 * I maintain that Tobirama dying during WW2 wouldn't make much sense. ~SnapperTo 23:10, July 2, 2015 (UTC)