Talk:Six Paths Sage Mode

Appearance section
There are articles on the wiki, such as Nine-Tails Chakra Mode and the appearance section of this article, that still describe Naruto's Six Paths Sage Mode to be his chakra cloak (urgh...). Naruto's Six Paths Sage Mode is his fox-toad eyes without Sage Mode's vermilion pigmentation around the eyes, correct? In order to be undeviating from that idea, I think the entire appearance section should go in the Nine-Tails Chakra Mode article (as it currently describes his chakra cloaks and not his eyes) and we should note here that Naruto's fox-toad eyes sans pigmentation have been both yellow and red depending on the chakra mode he dons. 04:18, August 14, 2018 (UTC)
 * Replying to Omnibender's argument here:
 * "Asura is what makes the distinction difficult. Based on the recent change, Naruto's Asura Kurama Mode is the result of SPSM modifying TBM, the implication being one needs both to display AKM."
 * How, exactly? He has SPS, but not SPSM. Like Obito and Madara. Concerning the recent change, I was just describing what I saw. I saw Naruto using a heightened state of Sage Mode to gather enormous amounts of natural energy through the cooperation of a Kurama avatar clone due to battling Sasuke simultaneously, and then fusing his Kurama avatar with two others to create the AKM construct, with the remaining natural energy used for the senjutsu attack he used to counter Sasuke's strongest attack. So yes, Naruto created the AKM due to having three Kurama avatars present, with the natural energy only serving to power him and his attacks up. Did not intend to give off that implication you are describing, so I'll edit it accordingly.
 * "Asura can't have TBM without being a jinchuriki, and if Asura doesn't have SPSM, he also can't have AKM."
 * But he doesn't have TBM? Nor does he have AKM because he's not a jinchūriki of Kurama. Or is Asura stated to have AKM somewhere that I didn't know about? He has his own chakra avatar with three heads and six arms, which we don't know much about aside from it having TSBs and looking similar to AKM, but it's still anyone's guess. I agree with Elve's notion that SPSM is the one thing that Naruto has, similar to Sasuke's one-eyed purple, six-tomoe Rinnegan. It's exclusive to them until shown otherwise. We haven't really seen Asura with those fox-toad eyes, so he doesn't have SPSM.
 * "I know there is a big deal made of the cross eyes without pigmentation being SPSM, but the databook entry shows him both with and without a NTCM-like chakra cloak. SPS doesn't have its own entry in the databook, it's something that is mentioned in articles where it's relevant. Rinne Sharingan is in the same situation."
 * A really big deal. I'm assuming that is the databook entry for SPSM. SPSM is just the fox-toad eyes without pigmentation irrespective of the chakra cloak being present or not, so... doesn't showing him both with and without a NTCM-like chakra cloak only support that, or am I missing something? Or are you saying that because the databook showed him with and without the cloak, we should do the same? I left the image of the Hagoromo-enhanced NTCM cloak in the article, so if anything, we are doing things just like the databoook. After the war, Naruto certainly used his NTCM cloak as his eyes are orange and his skin is glowing like all of his previous NTCMs and he does not have yellow eyes with non-glowing skin like we saw after he escaped death. Which is why what was the appearance section here is in the NTCM article. The appearance section was describing the appearance of the cloaks, and not the eyes. However, now that I think about it, I can add back the images I removed in a slideshow where Naruto's Hagoromo-enhanced cloak is in the article in order to showcase Naruto's eyes being orange after the war, if that helps. I've no problem doing that. And yes, we weren't given much with SPS or the Rinne Sharingan, unfortunately.
 * "Both Naruto and Asura need to be listed as users of whichever is considered to be the source of AKM, be it SPS or SPSM."
 * Why? Or rather, how does Asura have AKM when he is not a jinchūriki of Kurama? Naruto has his AKM, and Asura has his... "Asura Mode" chakra avatar for lack of a better term. I think the most that could be said apropos of the "source of AKM" is that Naruto, after his encounter with Hagoromo and the nine-tailed beasts, had large enough chakra reserves to be able to create and maintain the AKM, similar to how Sasuke had the chakra to suddenly use Complete Body Susanoo right after meeting Hagormo as well. Naruto used natural energy to help him do so with two other clones. I messed up giving off the implication that AKM needs SPSM (or SPS) to be created, that was my bad.
 * "Flight is shown in the SPSM databook entry, so it's something that appears to both SPS and SPSM."
 * That I did not know. Thought it was a SPS thing. I will add flight back to the SPSM page accordingly.
 * "Based on TSB databook entry, which links it to SPS, Asura has to have that in the manga as well, being the things he holds in the flashback, and Naruto only manifested his when he turned on the NTCM-like chakra cloak."
 * I don't disagree with the notion that Asura has the SPS and TSBs. And yes, Naruto only manifested his SPS and TSBs with the cloak. I don't believe Naruto used a "NTCM-like" cloak, I believe it is the NTCM cloak, or a variant of it. Naruto continued to use his NTCM cloak with SPSM during and after the war. Why it had non-glowing skin and yellow eyes, is anyone's guess. Maybe it was because of his SPS? Dunno. But if we saw Asura with that exact same cloak Naruto used against Madara, Kaguya and Sasuke, then I'd see your point, but we only saw that three-headed, six-armed "Asura Mode" construct. Whatever chakra avatar Asura used was similar, but not the same. It's like him using Amenomihashira and Naruto using the Rasengan. Similar techniques, but not the same. 22:11, August 16, 2018 (UTC)
 * Bump. 19:47, August 17, 2018 (UTC)
 * The crux of the matter is defining what Asura's chakra avatar, and I don't think there are any really good options. Either A, based on the look of Asura's chakra avatar and Naruto's AKM they're the same thing (three-faced six-armed), both Asura and Naruto need to be listed as users of SPS or SPSM, whichever is considered the source of AKM, which is difficult to determine, or B, Asura and Naruto's forms, despite looking the same are differently sourced, which is wildly speculative. Every way you look at it, something is lacking. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:33, August 17, 2018 (UTC)
 * So on one hand you people say that Asura wasn't a jinchuuriki, but on the other that he must have been or what? Why does he matter? We know so little about him. We should just write down what we know. 'papa 'Goromo blessed Asura with SPS as the latter manifested TSB'

If your point is that we know only of 3 ways of getting SPS (TT jinch, SPSM, Tenseigan/Hamura's chakra whatever BS) then Asura definitely wasn't a TT jinch, definitely didn't have Tenseigan thus SPSM seems like the logical option, 'cept not once in the manga or the anime did we see him with cross shaped eyes and what not. Not seen =/= not true, I know, but too speculative to claim such. Even if Asura had SPSM, the novel suggests that one still needs chakras from all the TB, SPSM being sort of a Sage Mode + pseudo-TT jinch mode hybrid or so. So either we state speculative unconfirmed information, or we leave it alone and simply assume there might be a 4th way and state 'x and y because z by undisclosed means' and that's it.--Elve Talk Page 10:37, August 18, 2018 (UTC)
 * Asura's form has to come from some sort of body strength based source, him having his father's "body" and all. That being the case, Asura's form should be confined to only Asura's article if we can't pinpoint where it comes form. Something unrelated to Asura, but that I think we should also point out is that aside from when he first awakened it, Naruto's never used only SPSM (only the eyes changing), he always used it with NTCM, kinda like him never using regular Wind Release: Rasengan after developing Rasenshuriken. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:46, August 18, 2018 (UTC)


 * "The crux of the matter is defining what Asura's chakra avatar, and I don't think there are any really good options. Either A, based on the look of Asura's chakra avatar and Naruto's AKM they're the same thing (three-faced six-armed), both Asura and Naruto need to be listed as users of SPS or SPSM, whichever is considered the source of AKM, which is difficult to determine, or B, Asura and Naruto's forms, despite looking the same are differently sourced, which is wildly speculative. Every way you look at it, something is lacking."
 * "Asura's form has to come from some sort of body strength based source, him having his father's 'body' and all. That being the case, Asura's form should be confined to only Asura's article if we can't pinpoint where it comes form."
 * I think I'm beginning to understand Omnibender's argument (if I'm still not getting it Omni, forgive me). Indra inherited his father's "eyes", so to speak (the Sharingan), and gains Susanoo, which is a Sharingan technique. Asura inherited his father's "body" (Six Paths Senjutsu), and gets his unique chakra avatar using the TSBs, the latter of which can be accessed through SPS.
 * ---This is where things get speculative---
 * So rather, like how Sasuke and Indra's Susanoo come from the Sharingan, Naruto and Asura's very similar three-headed/six-armed chakra avatars may come from SPS, which both have along with the TSBs. If I'm understanding Omni's concern correctly, the whole part about Naruto's AKM should not be in the SPSM article, but perhaps the SPS article (and it's already in the NTCM article, as AKM needs to be documented somewhere). When I give it more thought, AKM being more tied to SPS and not SPSM is actually more consistent, given:


 * Asura has a similar mode to AKM and only has SPS
 * Just like the SPS back pattern and the TSB, Naruto did not use AKM after the war and just used regular TBM
 * For Obito and Madara, after becoming the TT's jinchūriki, they got SPS and TBM, which make the latter two related, thus Naruto's SPS and his AKM, the latter of which is a powered-up TBM, must be related as well.
 * ---End of speculation---
 * SPS and AKM being related is option A that Omni alludes to. Option A may be speculative, but makes sense. AKM being related to SPSM, which is option B, makes even less sense. So currently, the article is representing option B.
 * So Omni, to modify option A that you brought up, how about this course of action without any speculation in it: Naruto and Asura's modes are similar and not the same, both are listed as SPS users, and essentially, the AKM part of this SPSM article must be removed, as it implies SPSM is the source of AKM, which makes no sense as Asura had a similar chakra avatar, but not SPSM. Is that what you want? Because now that I've given it more thought, that course of action makes sense and I agree with it.
 * So now Omni and Elve, what about the other points I made in my second post under this topic, to make another TL; DR:


 * I fully believe that after the war, Naruto clearly used NTCM and TBM in conjunction with SPSM as his skin was glowing and his eyes were orange. So I think the appearance section that was describing the cloaks Naruto used during and after the war should remain in the NTCM article and that appearance section which was essentially describing NTCM and not SPSM shouldn't come back to this article.
 * However, as I said earlier, I am willing to add back the images I removed in the recent edit and place them in a slideshow where Naruto's Hagoromo-enhanced cloak is in the article in order to showcase Naruto's eyes being orange after the war.
 * As I also said earlier and fully realize now, I fucked up giving off the implication that AKM needs SPSM to be created (option B that Omni alluded to). AKM part must be removed. It's more likely SPS is needed to use AKM (though this isn't to imply that the AKM part here needs to be moved to the SPS article - as this assertion may make more sense, it's still on the speculative side of things).
 * I'll add flight back to this SPSM article, as I was not aware it was listed under SPSM until Omni mentioned it. And also:
 * "Something unrelated to Asura, but that I think we should also point out is that aside from when he first awakened it, Naruto's never used only SPSM (only the eyes changing), he always used it with NTCM, kinda like him never using regular Wind Release: Rasengan after developing Rasenshuriken."


 * Sure, I've no problem doing this either.
 * Last point: if we want to move the AKM part here into the SPS article and perhaps pinpoint Asura's mode to SPS, I've no problem doing that as to me it makes perfect sense now, but I understand if it's a bit speculative and we choose to err on the side of caution.
 * Thoughts? 07:03, August 19, 2018 (UTC)
 * Bump. 02:18, August 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * Go get'em tiger.--Elve Talk Page 07:57, August 20, 2018 (UTC)
 * All of this, yes. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:26, August 21, 2018 (UTC)