Talk:Sage Art: Lava Release Rasenshuriken

Collaboration Technique
Seeing as Naruto is using Son's pre-made Lava chakra to form this, it should be a collaboration technique between the two of them, right?--BeyondRed (talk) 17:54, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Nope. Son's chakra is inside Naruto, they're different entities, but Son isn't physically there performing the technique. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:58, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I see it more like Naruto using Son's chakra to create the jutsu...sort of like Hinata using the chakra given by Naruto to power up her Eight Trigrams Vacuum Palm against the Ten-Tails.--JOA20 (talk) 17:59, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * By this logic all of Gaara's sand techniques are collaboration ones too.--Elveonora (talk) 18:00, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * 'course it's a collab jutsu. Son gives Naruto the chakra, Naruto sets it free. How's that not collaboration? Naruto could not perform it on his own. Seelentau 愛議 18:10, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Hm.... let me reconsider. I guess Naruto can't merge Earth and Fire himself.... or perhaps he can, but he doesn't know Doton and Katon anyway, so yeah, no KKG in his case, but how are you sure about Roshi?--Elveonora (talk) 18:15, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * And Gaara on his own wouldn't have been able to control sand if he had never been Shukaku's host, that doesn't mean every sand technique he did as a host is a collab either, as you argued yourself. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:19, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * There are many things we do understand all the rules of, including this topic, but also extending to what is a pseudo-JK in all forms, what truly makes a JK, etc. Right now, we may get an answer, so let's wait before saying what kind of technique it is as far as collabs as concerned. --Taynio (talk) 04:15, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

i would define a collaboration Jutsu as "two or more techniques that are being used simultaneously which give each other a positive, negative, or neutralizing effect". Since it's only one technique, but two seperate chakras, its technically not a collaboration jutsu in my eyes (just collaborationist chaka). but then i still suggest we have a higher up come and clear this up. Iowndisciti (talk) 04:26, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

Wind Release
What should we say about the Wind Release. Naruto calls it only Lava Release, but there are these shuriken-like blades that remind of Rasenshuriken.--JOA20 (talk) 17:59, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * There is no Wind Release involved, otherwise it would be stated in the technique's name.--Elveonora (talk) 18:01, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Elve: I don't mean to be antagonistic, because I realize we got into it a little to heated with the whole Truth-Seeking Balls thing, but that is the worst logic I've ever seen aplied to anything. It has Wind Release mixed in for sure. Those blades are slicing through the Shinju like a hot knife through butter. Lava doesn't do that. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:02, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Chidori doesn't have "Lightning Release" in its name, but it's very obviously a Lightning Release technique. The shuriken part of this technique is clearly Wind Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:04, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Why do you assume those blades are unique to Fuuton? For all we know they are red and hot this time--Elveonora (talk) 18:06, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because Lava doesn't cut. It doesn't make for good blades either. Wind is the only nature that does that. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:09, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm with Elve-kun on this one. Those blades weren't described as a result of the wind release. Seelentau 愛議 18:10, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * And again I say, when Lava can cut anything I'll agree with you. But it doesn't. Wind is the cutting nature. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:12, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

You would have a point Foxie if we saw Naruto making a WR:RS first and then asking for Son's chakra, except he made it whole in his palm as Lava Release--Elveonora (talk) 18:14, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * If what TTF says is true, then how come Naruto doesn't create a fully new element (kekkei tōta, fire+wind+earth)?--JOA20 (talk) 18:15, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because Dust Release is the merger of earth, fire and wind chakra, not lava and wind. And even if Son has the ability to merge fire and earth into lava, Naruto doesn't have the ability (as far as we know), to merge either lava and wind, or earth, fire and wind. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:17, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * (HOLYS CRAP PEOPLE! EDIT CONFLICTS >_< /rant jk) Here's how I see it. See if this makes sense, because it may not xD Naruto isn't having to mold Lava Release. He's making a Fūton Rasenshuriken and then adding in the chakra Son pre-molded for him. I mean the blades cut through a tree. Lava doesn't do that even in the fictional depictions that Kishi made. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:18, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Also it's as same as Naruto and Sasuke's collaboration technique, it's not Shakuton. It's just simply Fūton and Enton. By the way, Foxy-sama was right, Naruto created the Rasenshuriken firstly and then he mixed it with Son's chakra. — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 18:21, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

@Shakmoot, where you do see that? I see the contrary, he asked for chakra and made LR: Rasenshuriken. The way I see it is that Naruto made only the Rasengan and then added the lava nature to it--Elveonora (talk) 18:22, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * You explain to me how lava cuts anything and I'll agree with you. The blades cut the tree and there is no sign of a burning effect. Hell, the smoke is coming off the central sphere only, not the blades. The cutting, people, is the decision maker. Not the name. No one is arguing if Lava is involved or if Naruto made it with lava. The point is lava doesn't cut, Rasenshuriken is a wind-based technique, so logic dictates that he mixed Lava from Son with his Fūton Rasenshuriken, and we get this love child technique. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:25, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) Yes. It was Lava Release Rasenshuriken, not Lava Release Rasengan or Lava Release Rasentectonic plate. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:26, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Elve-kun: Does that mean the Rasenshuriken isn't a completed technique? Or he created the Rasenshuriken and mixing it with Son's chakra simultaneously? Sorry I couldn't understand it perfectly. But still agreed with Foxy-sama. — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 18:30, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

@Omni, so you mean to tell me that Rasengan + Fire/Water/Earth/Lightning wouldn't shape it into a shuriken but a square or a triangle? ...--Elveonora (talk) 18:33, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not into a shuriken, no, I don't. An Earth Release Rasengan would make no sense having something that looks like cutting, and if at least one nature transformation would probably turn into something different, why wouldn't the others? We were shown that the shape transformation turned the wind chakra into tiny blades by Tsunade, the very fact that other natures have different effects means that the shape transformation would turn them into something else, ergo not a shuriken. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:43, April 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * The fact that the "molten rock" appearance didn't spread to the blades is proof enough that more than Lava is at work in that technique. And. For the millionth time, I'll say: Lava. Doesn't. Cut. Agreed with Omni. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:46, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, okay... then add Fuuton too and list rasenshuriken as parent if you must--Elveonora (talk) 18:50, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Thankfully it reached a conclusion without me. But I'm surprised no one put more emphasis on the "rasenSHURIKEN" part. The Fuuton portion comes from the shuriken naming. Not all collab/combination techniques are like Fuuton, Katon, Doton: blah blah blah blah blah. Some even just say something a la Suiton: Water Something Cannon Blast (not a real technique), but would use Fuuton and Suiton. But it's definitely the shuriken part we need to look for to determine the type of technique, based on the rules of naming we've seen in the past for multiple chakra natures.

That being said, "doesn't cut" works, too, lol. --Taynio (talk) 04:22, April 13, 2014 (UTC)

The thing is, Rasengan itself is strictly chakra alone. While Rasenshuriken has only been shown as a variation that includes an element with it, theoretically Rasenshuriken can be only chakra. That is probably why Naruto calls it FUUTON: Rasenshuriken. Here there is no including the Fuuton Element, but rather Lava. Onto the main point here, Lava may be the centralized part of it, however in the end it IS chakra. The swirling around it don't necessarily have to be of the Fuuton element but may just be regular (or sage) chakra being pulsed around it. It does not HAVE to be Lava OR Wind spiraling around the Rasengan to make the Rasenshuriken. Koriami (talk) 15:03, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Its wind. Rasenshuriken is a WIND element technique (it required wind to even take a shuriken shape in the first place, so the "regular chakra argument is as bogus as they come) and this technique is only Rasenshuriken with added Lava. Its Lava and Wind. There we go. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 15:17, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * "Fuuton: Rasenshuriken" is wind. We have not seen any proof that Rasenshuriken BY ITSELF is impossible. Nor have we been given any reason to believe that it is impossible. Naruto created the technique after learning to manipulate the Fuuton element, so naturally he included it into the design of the jutsu. However showing that the Lava Release Rasenshuriken CAN EXIST, merely leads me to believe that the Rasenshuriken technique is possible without an element attributed to it, just like its base move the "Rasengan." And if that is the case, which it appears to be, it is entirely possible for Lava Release Rasenshuriken to exist WITHOUT the Fuuton element included by producing regular (or sage) chakra for the spiraling around it. This chakra can cut if manipulated in a way that allows it to (or in other words, in the way the Rasenshuriken would require). If this was as cut and dry as you are trying to make it sound there would be no need for a discussion about it. Koriami (talk) 16:50, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * You missed the entire point. Wind Release is required to make it a shuriken-shape. That alone debunks your entire paragraph. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 16:57, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Alright then. To be called "RasenShuriken", there is the implication that it needs to look like and/or resemble a shuriken. At no point in time is it stated that the Fuuton element is required to achieve this form. In fact, that is what my entire last post was about. Saying how the move was left open to have the potential to be used without requiring the Fuuton element. And if it can be used without said element, then that also leads to the implication that another element may be used in its place. Leaving Rasenshuriken as a base jutsu and its elemental variations as a more advanced version. Koriami (talk) 17:28, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, no, no, you're not getting it. Go back to the chapter in which Naruto is creating the Rasenshuriken. Wind is the only chakra nature that produces blades and by simply pouring wind chakra into the Rasengan, the shuriken shape was created. Naruto named it based on the appearance it took, not because he purposely shaped it that way. No other chakra nature is going to produce the blades. So your argument is literally impossible. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:34, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * But it is not impossible. Chakra can be shaped and molded in any way. Point and case, the fact that there is a Fuuton: Rasengan and a Fuuton: Rasenshuriken. If the wind release made it so that the blades had shown up, Fuuton: Rasengan would NOT be a possibility. However, Fuuton: Rasengan and Fuuton: Rasenshuriken are two seperate jutsu. Leaving it to be believed that Naruto DID have control over the shape, and that Elemental Affinity does have little to do with the shape of the jutsu.Koriami (talk) 17:48, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * It is impossible because Kishimoto wrote that wind chakra is the only nature that creates blades. Kishimoto writes the series, I record the series. When Kishi writes that another nature can create huge slicing wind blades, which take on a specific shape upon application to a Rasengan, then I will relent and record it. Edit: And no. Naruto had no control over the initial shape. The moment he added wind to Rasengan, it formed Wind Release: Rasengan... a small wind shuriken. From there, he made it bigger with shape transformation, and poof, Rasenshuriken. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:52, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Kishimoto has and will continue to make mistakes. The Rasenshuriken has become Naruto's trademark move, so Kishimoto is continuing to use that. He wanted to introduce a new element to it, so he decided to. And, using Shape Transformation Naruto recreated the Rasenshuriken using the Yoton element. You just said exactly what I was saying, except said it is the reason it can only be Fuuton. If Naruto can use Shape Transformation to make a large shuriken, he can surely do it with another element. And as I said before, the blades don't HAVE to be made of the Fuuton element. They can be simple chakra as well. If he can control the shape, then surely that removes the shape being an impossible factor without Fuuton.
 * Also, we have not seen the jutsu HIT yet. We have seen the waves around it cut into a tree, but we have not seen it hit yet. It could explode/melt once it hits rather than cut through Madara. Also, another thought, they never said the blades were created by the Fuuton element. In fact, on this very wikia, it says Naruto himself creates the four points required for the Rasenshuriken. So even if Naruto himself were not in control of creating the points (which, it says he does) then the points could also be caused by such a high concentration of chakra in a single area. There are many explanation as to why the points are there, however them being created because the Fuuton element exists within the technique are very slim when there is a jutsu, using the same base technique, containing the same elemental affinity.Koriami (talk) 18:05, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Again. This is Kishimoto's story. Not yours or mine. Its not my job to tell him where he isn't making sense or where he's making "mistakes" (highly presumptuous of you to say, because you are assuming, with that statement, that Kishimoto didn't want to make it a mix of wind and lava). It certainly isn't my job to be cocky and correct that for him. He said only wind produces chakra blades. Rasenshuriken is a core wind technique. This techniques is born from adding lava to that wind mix. I record those facts and my job is done. There is nothing to argue about that. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:08, April 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Highly presumptuous of you to say many of the things you are saying. Such as deciding that Yoton: Rasenshuriken contains the Fuuton element where there is no proof of this. As you said, this is Kishimotos story. If he meant it to be Fuuton he would have made it clear. Rasenshuriken itself is NOT a core-wind technique. The variation we have seen uses the Fuuton element, however the VARIATION is called FUUTON: Rasenshuriken. If Rasenshuriken itself was a core-wind move, then would it not just simply be called Rasenshuriken? From what we have seen Naruto produces this Yoton: Rasenshuriken immediately. There is NO evidence showing that he first created the Fuuton: Rasenshuriken and THEN added the Yoton element. I would prefer if you would stop trying to attack my character and provide more "evidence" to support your case and disprove mine. Until mine is dis-proven (which cannot be done until you prove yours accurate), there is reasonable doubt to your claims and as such cannot be called the absolute and final verdict.Koriami (talk) 00:54, April 14, 2014 (UTC)

I'd like to point you to Big Ball Rasenshuriken and Mini-Rasenshuriken. Neither has Wind Release in the name, both very clearly Wind Release. Same goes for some of Temari's techniques. Baki's Blade of Wind. Chidori and Kirin don't have Lightning Release on their names, clearly Lightning Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:20, April 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * I would agree with what you are saying Omnibender, however this DOES have an element leading its name. Yoton. In all of your examples they have no elemental affinity included in their name. Now, if it was "Katon: Chidori" what would you assume the element was? The logic that has been applied in this discussion is also that just because there is an elemental affinity in the name does not mean that is necessarily the element. If that was the case, "Fuuton: Rasengan" doesn't necessarily have to be the wind element. Basically, what I am saying is, if you can't go by the name when making a judgment call such as this you also cannot include name omissions as an example to prove your theory.Koriami (talk) 01:29, April 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't care about the name. At all. I care about the giant ass blades of wind that  cut through a tree  and the fact that wind nature chakra is the only chakra nature that produces blades, per Kakashi's own words in previous chapters. You cannot change my mind on this, nor can you change what is already established in the manga. It has wind in it. That's all there is to it. That's not being presumptuous, that's using facts to come to a logical conclusion. What is presumptuous is to assume that Kishimoto would suddenly change the nature of a well known Wind Release technique for shits and giggles. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:34, April 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * So wind is the only element that can cut? I fail to see the logic in that. Considering Chidori's primary ability is to cut/pierce. And on that note, I don't need to change your mind. All I need to do is provide logic supporting my ideals until your ideals have no more logic to back themselves. Which, as it appears, I am doing. Also, Almost any element can cut. It all depends on how it is used. Wood element can cut, as can earth, lightning, water, and lava. Lava is a liquid substance with solids inside of it. Shaped thin enough and moving fast enough, it can cut. And, as I said before, THIS VERY WIKIA SAYS THAT NARUTO PRODUCES SAID BLADES. Not that the wind element creates them. Arguing that the blades being within the technique means that it has to be Fuuton is an invalid argument. And actually, it is presumptuous to say you know what Kishimoto could be thinking. Neither you nor I know that, so all we have to go on is what is presented to us. At the moment, we are shown that there is a YOTON Rasenshuriken. There is nothing there indicating the Fuuton element. Implying that wind is the only element that can produce a sharp effect is like saying that there have not been any other jutsu (aside from those with the Fuuton affinity) that have been able to produce a cutting effect. Koriami (talk) 01:51, April 14, 2014 (UTC)

Point of Note: Sasuke makes it a thing to create blades of black fire. In other words, he uses Blaze Release to to cut things. This is relevant to this discussion.
 * Carry on.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 02:17, April 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Fire doesn't cut. The blade my burn through things similar to the way a blade cuts through whatever needs cutting, but fire doesn't have an edge, nor does it have the capabilities to cut, so it would be improper to say Blaze Release cuts anything. He makes a valid point about lightning having piercing qualities (there is a difference), but unless Naruto suddenly learned that too, that theory is out. The point is, Rasenshuriken is a wind technique, all of its variants are wind, and wind is the direct reason the shuriken blades form around the Rasengan. Kishimoto isn't just going to swap out that element and make Lava create a cutting shuriken for the lulz. That just doesn't make sense. I'm amazed its even being argued. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 03:09, April 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * If you take a look at the picture, we don't see what kind of effect the jutsu has with the tree. We do realize that it passes through the tree and damages it. However, we do not know if it is a clean slice or if it is merely ripping through it. In all honesty, the cloud of smoke not only blocks us from seeing if it was a clean slice or not but also can be used to say that the damage to the tree was NOT a clean cut. If it had been a clean cut passing through, there would not be quite as much debris flying through the air. It is a reasonable assumption to say that it is more tearing through the tree than an actual clean cut to begin with.Koriami (talk) 12:13, April 14, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure why people are forgetting what Foxy pointed out. The entire reason, reiterating what he said, rasengan became rasenshuriken is because of adding fuuton to the mix. It took the manipulation and molding of wind chakra to achieve that form and have those abilities. It took fuuton to make it spin like that. All arguments against having Fuuton, especially considering what we know of how techniques are named, are invalid because of that. Now, if it turns out Kish makes a point of saying Fuuton isn't in it, Foxy and others will concede, but until then... --Taynio (talk) 04:38, April 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * As I mentioned before, if Rasenshuriken came into existence because of the fact that the Fuuton affinity was introduced into Rasengan, then Fuuton: Rasengan would not be a possibility. However it is. That leads the readers to believe that while we have only seen Rasenshuriken while it was infused with the Fuuton affinity, Rasenshuriken itself was created by Naruto. In fact, as I have mentioned before, on this very wikia it states that Naruto creates the four large points. Not that the Fuuton affinity does.Koriami (talk) 12:09, April 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Another point of clarification; Rasengan already spins. Wind Release was not needed to make it do what it was already doing. Carry on.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:18, April 14, 2014 (UTC)

All the Rasenshuriken is is an advanced form of Wind Release: Rasengan. The blades are a trait carried by both WR Rasengan and WR Rasebshuriken. And yes, Naruto does make the wind blades... with Wind Release. &#34;Demons run when a good man goes to war.&#34; (talk) 13:36, April 14, 2014 (UTC)


 * Spinning is irrelevant, and you show you lack the knowledge of the jutsu and chakra natures, TU3. I'd also refrain from using "carry on" during every post, whether you're a sysop or not; you are not above anyone. It's very condescending and rude. You also make mention of the basic Fuuton rasengan, meanwhile the basic one we've seen in the manga and anime also showcase the shuriken-esque shape. At this point in comparison between Fuuton Rasengan and Fuuton Rasenshuriken, the only difference is size, and Naruto aptly calls every size differently. And again you fail to comprehend the concept of: Fuuton cuts. Based on how the latest jutsu Naruto is using appears to be cutting, and.... F u u t o n  c u t s, it's easy to figure out that there are multiple elements being used. Naruto formed the (fuuton) Rasenshuriken while Son Goku supplied the Yoton (another topic, though). Despite the fact I disagree on a magical "entity" aspect that Elv believes in for the Bijuu, they are still sentient and capable of behaving on their own. This is a collab jutsu between Naruto and Son Goku, and it uses Senjutsu, (Son) Youton, and Fuuton. You can talk about how you think the shape matters not until you're blue in the face, but you're ignoring the groundwork we have already. If it does turn out that Kish states it is not fuuton, then we can concede. But given the evidence we have -- it has fuuton incorporated into it. And no, so you do not attempt to reiterate the introduction aspect -- the shuriken shape was to enable it to cut. The shape itself is designed with fuuton in mind. This was spoken about IIRC in the manga. It is an easy delivery system and also makes it look cool. --Taynio (talk) 17:34, April 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * As I mentioned before Taynio, there is too much dust in the way to see what kind of damage was dealt to the tree. I personally feel as though all of the debris is because this in fact was not a clean cut.Koriami (talk) 23:08, April 14, 2014 (UTC)


 * As I said, I am not afraid to concede when the information presented proves me wrong. As for the "clean cut", that is an opinion. I see the panel and don't see it as being as dust as you say. That's my opinion, and it is neither right or wrong compared to yours. I''m hoping the chapters brings it up. --Taynio (talk) 07:01, April 15, 2014 (UTC)

My opinion: the heat of the magma is so intense and concentrated, it creates a narrow, bladed effect. After all, Atsui did use Cloud-Style Flame Beheading to create a flaming blade. Mui used Heavenly Prison Fire Sword that can pierce and burn. Sasuke can use Amaterasu as a blade at times to stab, and if I remember correctly, slash. So why not this? Why can't the magma be the cutting blade, why does it have to involve wind? Yatanogarasu (Talk) 06:09, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh... I don't know. Because it just cut through a giant tree. Fire. Does. Not. Cut. AT ALL. Nor does lava. Especially lava. No more debates on this one. It certainly has Wind Release properties. My guess? Naruto uses the flames in Lava Release to empower the wind nature. It only makes sense. But there is no doubt wind is involved. None. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 06:15, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * The blade LITERALLY BURNED THROUGH THE ENTIRE TREE. How can you possibly think that it is more unlikely for HEAT TO CUT (which Sasuke has done) than it is for WIND TO BURN? The blade did not cut like wind but it did burn through the tree. Even while the blade of the Rasenshuriken is travelling by the tree the blade leaves a burning path, not a cut one. Further proving the blade must be of either the Katon or Yoton element. I can link the picture of the burning tree if you would like.Koriami (talk) 12:04, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah I'm also gonna have to go against you this time Ten Tailed Fox. That Rasenshuriken is defiantly made of lava, as it burned it's way through the tree. I'm aware of how lava actually works, but clearly Kishimoto isn't. And it has long since been known that we document the series and make note of his mistakes, we don't try and fix it for him--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:10, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * On that note, I feel as though Wind Affinity should be removed from this jutsu. Koriami (talk) 13:42, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

I am not entirely sure why people think it couldn't have Fuuton in it. It doesn't negate the ability for things to burn. It can still cut and burn things because -- surprise, surprise, Youton is still there. And there is absolutely no reason for insulting Kish by saying he doesn't know something. It is more likely you are not understanding the mechanics and nature of the jutsu than him not knowing how lava works. You can use Fuuton to form the Rasenshuriken, making the blades, then using Youton and Senjutsu to strength it. We've seen this kind of thing before. Now, does it mean this happened? Clearly we'll never know, so we should end the discussion here as nothing new will ever be brought up by us, and possibly never by Kish, either. --Taynio (talk) 13:44, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * The Statement you cant prove its not there does not prove that it is there. And that means there is no reason to assume that it has wind affinity. If you cant prove that it is there then the safest assumption is that it is not.Koriami (talk) 14:09, April 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * "Assume that is has wind affinity". Rasenshuriken is a wind technique. I can't bear this conversation any longer. My head is dying from the logic being used. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 15:05, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * And you cannot prove it is incorrect, nor yours correct, but only one scenario is more likely given everything we know about the series. Hazard a guess?--Taynio (talk) 15:08, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * I honestly can't believe this conversation is still going. The Rasenshuriken is the evolution of the Wind Release: Rasengan. Wind release is a fundamental part of its existence. Its very shape was made to take full advantage of that nature type. It doesn't have to explicitly be labelled with Wind Release to be a Wind Release technique (see: Mini-Rasenshuriken). If wind release wasn't part of the technique it would receive a different shape and simply be Sage Art: Lava Release Rasengan. The central Rasengan portion of the technique is Lava, the blades are wind. Notice that the technique causes no burning until it bursts.--Soul reaper (talk) 15:16, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually the blades burn before it explodes implying that the blades are lava nature. Since they BURN. Also, since the blades burn and the lava affinity is in the jutsu, the blades cannot be fire and wind.Koriami (talk) 16:35, April 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * It was named rasenshuriken because of its resemblance to a shuriken and having fuuton characteristics. There is no reason to have it be a ranseshuriken if there is no fuuton in it. Otherwise, Naruto would've made an entirely new rasengan-based attack using senjutsu and Youton. --Taynio (talk) 16:43, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * A couple things. Jutsu can be element based and still have variations not of the same element (fire dragon, water dragon, mud dragon, anyone?) Just because Kishi decided to make a new form of this jutsu doesnt mean it still has wind. I will say this now: as has been said, this is Kishis manga. Not mine, yours, nor anyone elses. He said Lava Style. Not wind. To make assumptions to anything BUT what he said implies that you know better than him. It says Lava, not Fuuton. Kishi wrote lava not wind. So until officially stated otherwise it is Lava.Koriami (talk) 16:55, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

I feel for you tentailedfox to go through having people not understanding simple logic, the rasenshuriken has blades cause of the wind chakra, tsunade already stated this. In no way can lava form a blades or cut that cleanly through the shinju. The lava became the core of the jutsu that being a rasengan, so if were truly just lava only then the jutsu name would rather have been lava release: rasengan or oodama rasengan (like mentioned above) but that rotating slicing chakra is plainly wind chakra since its the only nature apart from water having the ability to slice through objects. Finally, if you take a look at the shinju after the attack its been clearly sliced and has it ends burning, to deny this simply means you have no common sense with all due respect, smh --Rayzur (talk) 17:35, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

IMO, kishi stated lava release because of it being a major componenet of the jutsu and since naruto has used the rasenshuriken without saying the wind release part does it mean there's no wind it? or you prefer kishi going Sage Art: wind release lava release swirling shuriken before you accept the obvious? smh--Rayzur (talk) 17:40, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Or if Naruto shaped the Jutsu to look like a shuriken (which he prefers to do for its ability to be thrown plus it has been a reliable technique for him since its creation) he COULD call it Rasenshuriken still, due to the fact it would still retain its same shape. Plus, as far as the "End burning" That is because that is the point of contact the attack made on the shinju. As I mentioned earlier THE BLADE OF THE JUTSU BURNED THE SHINJU. Look to this picture for the trail of fire that occurs WITHOUT THE CORE TOUCHING THE SHINJU. http://i.imgur.com/3Qg1dc5.png On top of that, this picture also shows the blade leaving a trail of fire on the shinju. Not a clean cut. Arguing further that the blade is Wind style is pointless, considering that (and this is using TenTailedFox's logic) WIND DOESN'T BURN. Also, As far as "people not understanding simple logic" every point I have made is easy to grasp. It has proven a point, backed up a point, and proceeded to prove the points others have tried to put against it wrong. Ultimately, there is no wind style in this jutsu. The "Blades" burn. Which goes to show that it is NOT wind style. The core has already been established to be lava style. How there is any thought left that it could be wind style confuses me to no end. As mentioned earlier, jutsu because a jutsu is originally created of one element does not mean it can not have derivations of a different element. All it takes is nature manipulation of a different chakra nature. Shape manipulation can be used to recreate any shape. Whether or not the same affect occurs is up to the writer (Kishimoto) and as shown in this chapter, the same effect was reached by Naruto using a Lava Style Rasenshuriken. Rayzur, look more carefully at the chapter before saying people have no common sense, because the blade burned the tree. The tree did not burn after the blade cut it. If you are wrong after bringing others intellect into question, then where does that place yours? No offense. As for your edit, he doesn't have to say "Wind Release Lava Release", he just has to give some sort of indication that it is WR. And, as I said before, WR does not cause flames. Which the BLADE (which is the only part of the jutsu that has the potential to be WR) of the jutsu was used to burn the Shinju. That is just as bad as saying that WR is the only thing that can cut (Which has been proven otherwise with FR, LR, WaR). I simply fail to see where this logic is hard to understand. Koriami (talk) 18:27, April 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * Apparently, the lava sphere heats the air blades (you can see smoke coming out), allowing them to cut and burn simultaneously. And when the sphere explodes, it releases a sharp wave of hot air, cutting and burning the entire length of the tree. Thunder God Cid (talk) 18:13, April 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * And this one has me thinking, if what everyone is saying is true (Naruto using WR: Rasenshuriken then adding to it) then the core of the jutsu would be different than just Lava style anyway. It would have Wind Style in the core as well (which it obviously does not). On top of it being incredibly hard to add an elemental affinity to the Rasengan (not even the fourth could do it) Naruto is supposedly doing it with two different elements at the same time? On of which only a rare few have the ability to use? I don't believe that would be possible in the Narutoverse, let alone for Naruto to do it on a whim. He used Sons Lava chakra to make the jutsu, and if the blades are causing a burning because of the "Heat" coming from the core, then couldn't that also simply be the insanely fast rotation speed of the Rasengan creating the blades out of the heat it is emitting?
 * And one more thing, when WR rasenshuriken is used, even when spinning at max speeds you can still clearly identify the blades that are spinning around it. However, with this jutsu you can only see the blades as soon as the jutsu is used. Once full rotation is reached, you can no longer identify them individually.Koriami (talk) 18:27, April 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * I just wanna point out what other people currently call him: Jesus Naruto. In his current state, there is almost nothing he cannot do. --Taynio (talk) 18:35, April 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * Let me also point out that, if there is almost nothing he cannot do, can't he recreate his favorite jutsu using a different element? Seems highly plausible to me.Koriami (talk) 18:41, April 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * I am sorry, I laughed at that and couldn't take it serious. Please don't take this as me being a bitch or rude. I just didn't expect that kind of response. It isn't wrong, but it doesn't follow any mechanical progression usually associated with everything. If Naruto made a Raiton Rasengan, we'd expect there to be something in it that makes it follow the laws of Raiton characteristics. The same would be said for Suiton, Doton, and Katon. But there would be no reason for Youton to take the shake of a Rasenshuriken, which has only ever been seen with Fuuton, and even in its current state, and people trying to nitpick, still displays characteristics both visually and mechanically of being related to Fuuton. I would also assume that adding Fuuton to Youton would make it huge enough to cut the giant ass tree, since Fuuton strengthens Katon-based techniques. --Taynio (talk) 18:52, April 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * I've been laughing at this whole argument so far, so I understand where you are coming from with that first part. However, you cannot abide by logic that aids both your argument and mine. For the second matter are you really going to talk about progression in a shounen manga? Where powers and abilities takes leaps and bounds through sneezing? That in itself is a hilarious statement.
 * 1. The blade burns. Which means Fire (or in this case, lava considering that it is a lava style jutsu)
 * 2. Naruto did NOT use the Fuuton variation before adding in Sons chakra. He added the sage chakra on top of sons chakra so that it could still harm Madara who at this point has not been able to be hurt by anything except Sage Chakra and Taijutsu.
 * 3. Once at full rotation, you can no longer see the blades of this rasenshuriken. Unlike the Fuuton variation, where the blades are clearly visible even once full rotation is reached. Koriami (talk) 19:02, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

Chidori does not have "Lightning Release" ahead of it, but is still a lightning technique. This technique, however, has "Sage Art" and "Lava Release", indicating it is senjutsu and lava, but nowhere does it say "Wind Release". Point is, if there's no "[Element] Release" prefix, then we can assume; if there is a prefix, then we can't just add an additional element, right? This case is unlike the Exploding Clay being Explosion and Earth Releases. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 02:52, April 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * Exactly. And Deidara, while you are right his techniques are both Explosion and Earth releases, does not call his jutsu with an element if I remember correctly. He merely says "Katsu" when he wants them to explode (accompanied with a handsign). I have not memorized the entire series word for word, but I do not recall any jutsu, that has multiple elemental affinities, that does not combine the elements and only calls one of the elements. Usually if that is the case, they would omit calling the element in the first place (example Typhoon Water Vortex Jutsu). Ignoring this fact also ignores how the names of every other jutsu in the series has been produced. Now, I could be wrong but I would prefer to have proof of that before people just come in and say that I am wrong. This alone (provided that I haven't overlooked anything) should be enough to say that it does not contain wind release.Koriami (talk) 12:06, April 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * Except there is a commonly known fuuton jutsu name within it: Rasenshuriken. The entire premise of a rasengan being a shuriken is for fuuton, to be able to cut. There is no reason for Naruto to create a pure youton rasenshuriken. He could make an entirely new technique based on youton. However, he picks one that is synonymous for being a fuuton jutsu, and it's entire design, again -- is to cut. Yet people ignore this fact, which should alone be enough to say that it does contain wind release. --Taynio (talk) 13:36, April 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * Two noticable problems with that theory Taynio.
 * 1) You assume that just because the Wind Release technique in it, all techniques that use a Rasenshuriken will also be Wind. That may not be the case. As someone mentioned earlier, there are a lot of techniques that produce dragons and what not, and those aren't cosnidered the same technique. And let's not even get started on the elemental clones.
 * 2) Naruto has made close to half a dozen variations of the Rasengan, which were all just different ways of ramming them into someone. When it comes to breaking someone's face, he tends to not think very far from what he already knows.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:46, April 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * It's less of a theory and more of basic logic/critical thinking. Why use a jutsu that is designed to cut not actually cut? The shape is fuuton-designed and inspired. The entire premise of rasenshuriken is for cutting. Does that mean I am right? No, but based on what we know about the technique, it's a safer bet on it having fuuton than it not. And Naruto could've used a basic rasengan, a large rasengan, or made a random one on the fly. He made a lot of spontaneous new jutsus when he first arrived on the battle field, all rasengan inspired. So why not this one? Not only does it have a fuuton-name, part of the name itself has shuriken on it, which is a weapon designed to cut (doesn't have to be thrown, technically, as it will cut either way). Not only is rasenshuriken designed up cut, but it does infact cut. However, it doesn't cut someone, a hill, a beast, or anything else. It cleanly cuts a giant ass tree that feels like it reaches to space almost. We see that the tree was in fact cut. To achieve this level of cutting, as Asuma explained when teaching Naruto about base chakra vs nature chakra, basic chakra will only go so far. Asuma showed an example of it, and we saw a fuuton weapon cutting through a lot more cleanly, and going further. How could we expect a technique called Senpou: Youton Rasenshuriken to cut? There is no inherent element in that which would allow it to cut, especially to the degree it did. Since we see it cutting through the tree, so we have to assume that there is an element that is known for cutting. Otherwise, there is no reason for any of it. It simply makes no sense. --Taynio (talk) 14:17, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * For the record, I could really care less about this technique, I doubt we'll ever see it again. I'm just saying you are probably really over thinking it. The only reason why it is listed as Wind Release is because Rasenshuriken was a Wind Release. He very well could have made a purely Lava Rasenshuriken, and considering how it acted (the blades flickered like flames and when it expanded and bursted it didn't make the giant wind dome of death) again I would argue there is no wind. As to why did he use an existing technique and modified it when he didn't need to? First: Makes a far more interesting scene then seeing him throw the same Rasenshuriken we've already seen, Second: Kishimoto wanted it.
 * But as I said, I don't care much. So carry on.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:55, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

There was no indication that this technique was Wind Release at all. Aside from the fact that it is declared to be a Lava Release technique, when the technique was cutting through the tree, we can clearly see that it is the fire (lava, whatever) on the edge of the disc that is doing so. And as for the disc itself, there is nothing indicating that is an indicator of Wind Release. The technique involves shape manipulation, and clearly can be in whatever shape Naruto wants. More clearly, a disc-shaped object is going to be a better throwing weapon. The Wind Release part that Tsunade originally ascribed to the techniqued had to do with the microscopic needle things that the technique created. I just don't understand why this has Wind Release attached... Skitts (talk) 15:41, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * This. WR should not be a part of this jutsu and should be removed from its entry page... Koriami (talk) 18:23, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

--If wind truly was involved wouldn't Kishi have called it Dust Release instead of Lava Release? Just a thought...NinjaGuy830 (talk) 03:15, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

@TU3 and Skitts - I may be overcomplicating it, but it also explains what happened mechanically. I don't exactly care, either, but I'm bored. And yes, he technically could've made a pureYouton Rasenshuriken, but there's is no reason to thematically, unless he doesn't want to make a powerful jutsu that can cut (Fuuton) as well as a fire jutsu that can burn through a giant tree (Youton). Without fuuton, a rasenshuriken has practically no cutting power, and that's why I've emphasized the important of the element being added. We saw this, reiterating, explained by Asuma. As powerful as Naruto is, it is extremely doubtful a non-fuuton based rasenshuriken would be able to cut the Shinju completely like that. And Skitt, you bring up a great point, except it doesn't actually help the case against fuuton IMO. Since it cut at a level lesser than or equal to that of cells (if memory serves me correctly), it only makes much more sense that a non-fuuton based rasenshuriken would be less likely to cut something that huge and that powerful, whereas it generally only makes sense a rasenshuriken using fuuton would. And even if it was a non-fuuton based Youton Rasenshuriken, we'd never actually expect it to cut (from a non-Kish perspective) because that's simply not how the element is displayed thematically. We'd simply anticipate it in being thrown, landing, and then perhaps exploding (in the sense of upon contact, the lava splattering) and catching things on fire. I think people are forgetting the important of the characteristics of elements and the lessens we were given about them.

Even if I am wrong and fuuton isn't a part of it, I think people are missing important pieces that overwhelmingly explain why fuuton should be a part, leaving me to go "What?" at Kish if he ever states it never had fuuton. --Taynio (talk) 03:48, April 18, 2014 (UTC)


 * I have understood every part of what you have said Taynio. I understand how the move can be interpreted to have a Youton center accompanied by Fuuton blades. I understand that the blades have been a symbol of Fuuton (though, to be honest, that could also be because that is the only variation of the rasenshuriken we have seen until now). As far as not having any cutting power, without Fuuton, I have to disagree. In the state that it is in, we can assume the lava in this jutsu is a liquid. Liquid itself can have some major cutting power when used in the right way. If the rotation was fast enough and the liquid (lava) spread thin enough it would be the equivalent of a very sharp edge.
 * I believe that the blades around this Rasenshuriken are also either spinning much faster than previous or are made of a different substance than the Fuuton: Rasenshuriken. This is due to the fact that once full rotation is reached with the Yoton: Rasenshuriken, we can no longer distinguish the blades from their rotation as we could in the Fuuton variation. Which could also go to show that it could be one flat rotating disc of lava around the Rasenshuriken (that is just speculation of course).
 * Just because Fuuton is the first element that is thought of when associating with techniques that can cut, does not mean that it is the only. Including the fact that the naming should have been something to include the Fuuton element as well. I would accept that it doesn't necessarily have to include Fuuton in it, if it was not for the fact that there was an elemental title in front of the name. This would be the first instance of a jutsu that has an elemental title in the front of its name that contained more than one element. Even Naruto and Yamato's Fuuton/Suiton jutsu chooses to omit the elemental title in the front. I would believe that is because saying "Wind Release: Water Release:" would be too long and arduous a jutsu name. So omission of the release title is the obvious choice. Where as Naruto chooses here to call it Sage Art: Lava Release Rasenshuriken. Based on previous naming principles, this to me seems as though it was intentionally called Lava Release to clarify that it was a variation that contained Lava Release rather than Wind Release. I feel as though these facts are too set in stone to ignore. The biggest argument saying that the blades are Fuuton is that first of all they exist. Which can easily be explained by Naruto choosing to use Shape Manipulation to make them that way. And as I referenced earlier, there are other elements that can cut aside from Fuuton. Koriami (talk) 04:33, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

How?
The chapter isn't even released yet; merely in raw. I thought adding information was against the Spoiler Policy and we waited until the full manga translated was released On Tues/Wed/Thurs --KiumaruHamachi (talk) 23:09, April 12, 2014 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi
 * Thread:122093.--JOA20 (talk) 23:12, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

There's already a discussion for this in a chat room forum. Munchvtec (talk) 23:17, April 12, 2014 (UTC)

Why is it classified as a kinjutsu?
As far as I know, it doesn't comply with any of the 3 requirements (see article Kinjutsu) for it to be classified as a kinjutsu. Can someone explain a reason why this would be considered as such? --Veenp (talk) 16:32, April 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * It falls within the 3rd category, and before Naruto perfected it, it fell also into the 1st. --Taynio (talk) 16:39, April 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * Technically it doesn't. Or at the least it shouldn't. Because only not only was Rasenshuriken declared a kinjutsu because it was dangerous to Naruto, once he adds senjutsu to it which lets him throw it, it wouldn't be a problem. Also Lava Release Rasenshuriken was given no classification, which means I can only assume it is listed as a kinjutsu here is because the base form of it's parent is.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:43, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Which we still argue about if it even consist of any harming Wind at all--Elveonora (talk) 13:50, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * I remember now that the original Rasenshuriken (the non-thrown version) was considered by Tsunade and Kakashi to be too dangerous for Naruto and therefore should be sealed off, which would classify it as a 1st category kinjutsu and not a 3rd category (even though it would make sense considering the scale of any Rasenshuriken but then we would have to classify any large-scale ninjutsu a kinjutsu, and that's a lot of kinjutsu). However the danger to Naruto's body is removed when the Rasenshuriken is thrown. Therefore (IMO), thrown versions of the Rasenshuriken should not be classified as kinjutsu, despite the original, non-throwable version being correctly labeled a kinjutsu. --Veenp (talk) 17:02, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think it's the same case of Tajū Kage Bunshin. It's not because one person or few could perform a dangerous jutsu without risks (thanks some type of "rare supercondition", for example) that it's no longer a kinjutsu for most. Thunder God Cid (talk) 03:11, April 18, 2014 (UTC)