Talk:Kaguya Ōtsutsuki

Rinnegan confirmed
As of the last chapter Sasuke has obtained the same pattern in one of his eyes and it was identified as a Rinnegan. I think that confirms this unique eye pattern is a mix of Sharingan and Rinnegan. Shadow Abyss (talk) 14:25, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except it was called Sharingan in Kaguya's case and Rinnegan in Sasuke's. I think we must not be seeing the whole picture yet.--Elveonora (talk) 15:17, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * It makes it hard to document to say the least. It almost seems as if they're using the two names interchangeably at this point. I'm not entirely sure where the information should be added.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:20, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, as stated by both Ultimate (I believe? Or was it Foxie?) and Seel, having Rinnegan also means having the Sharingan. But that doesn't explain why:


 * Sage had just the Rinnegan, unless he also had the Sharingan (like Madara) but just wasn't shown using it
 * Madara has both but has to switch between the two
 * Sasuke has both merged in one eye and doesn't have to switch

The manga is getting more confusing each chapter.--Elveonora (talk) 15:24, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

I would think the most recent information would take precedence also Kaguya's eye on her forehead was never directly called the Sharingan. it was only stated that Kaguya possesed the power of the Sharingan as well as the Byakugan.

Viz translated it like this. "Mother possed the power of Sharingan as well as Byakugan She user"

So I would think it would be pretty logical too list Kaguya and the Juubi as users of the Rinnegan since it was given an official name in the most recent chapter.--Thdyingbreed (talk) 18:42, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Kaguya's was called Sharingan. Sasuke's was called Rinnegan. That's all we know. So Kaguya gets listed for Sharingan and Sasuke's for Rinnegan until we know more. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 19:40, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

They have the exact same eye it isn't possible for one too be a Rinnegan and the other just a Sharingan and it would look very contradictory too have too people who possess the same eye and only have one person listed as a user for the Dojutsu.

All retirate it again Kaguya's Dojutsu was never directly called the Sharingan prior too this chapter it was only stated it had the power of the Sharingan.

No translation refers too it as the Sharingan only that it possess's the power of one even MS/MP that are known for there awful mistranslations got that part right.

Which we've seen is possible even with a normal given how Madara is able to use his Susanoo with his Rinnegan and was able to switch back to his EMS at one point.

This chapter we were given a name for it and that is the Rinnegan this really shouldn't be that hard too put two and two together and figure out that it is the Rinnegan.--Thdyingbreed (talk) 20:28, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Eh... every Rinnegan is a Sharingan, so Hagoromo's statement wasn't wrong. • Seelentau 愛議 21:04, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

It was a Sharingan but it's not currently a Sharingan anymore Kishi even made a point of reinforcing that when Madara stated too Obito that his Rinnegan isn't a Sharingan anymore it's a Rinnegan they are distinct Dojutsu's.

We know what it is now which is a Rinnegan and as such Kaguya should be listed a user just like how Sasuke who posses the same eye is.--Thdyingbreed (talk) 03:08, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Actually the sage did not state kaguya had sharingan, he actually stated that she had the power of sharingan, not sharingan itself. I think the user above has point. And off subject Madara doesnt have to exactly switch between sharingan and rinnegan to use their abilities. The manga shows that madara does have to activate his rinnegan to use its abilities, but he doesnt have switch to sharingan to use its abilities, he summons susanoo when his rinnegan was activated. Another note is that madara has been shown to use sharingan abilities without physically having his eyes, such as summoning his susanoo without actually having his eyes, however it does show that he does physically need and has to activate his rinnegan to use it.--Ankhael (talk) 04:11, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya was said to use both "dōryuko", with is essentially a synonym to dōjutsu, meaning she had Sharingan and Byakugan, no "she had the power of the X, but not the X per se". Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 05:33, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Im pretty sure Kaguya's 3rd eye is in fact a Rinnegan not Sharingan seeing as it looks the same as the the Ten Tails eye and also Sasukes Rinnegan. Seeing as it is the final form of the sharingan and possesses all of its techniques it would make sense that she would have the original Dojustu seeing as the sharingan is a watered down version of it/earlier stage of its development. I think in the manga when they stated she also possesed the Sharingan they were just referring to the techniques tied to it aka the Tsukuyomi. Also it stated that other than the Shinju's eye hers is the only other one to be able to cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi (thx to her Byakugan being able to amplify its distance and power) therefore her Dojutsu would have to at least be the Rinnegan or a more advanced verion of it. And again hers looks just like Sasukes and the Mangekyō Sharingan does have different appearances with different users so it wouldnt surprise me if the Rinnegan did too. Joshuagallent (talk) 05:45, April 17, 2014 (UTC) Joshuagallent (talk) 08:43, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Except hers was called Sharingan. And Madara's Rinnegan looked exactly the same as Hagoromo's, so no on the Mangekyo like variation between users. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 05:58, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

But Someone posted earlier stating the manga said she had the "power" of the sharingan not actually stating that she physically had one? Joshuagallent (talk) 08:11, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Again: Every Rinnegan is a Sharingan. Every Mangekyō Sharingan is a Sharingan, too. We knew that the Rinnegan is the peak of the Sharingan since foREVer now, there's really no problem here. Kaguya had the Rinnegan and thus the Sharingan, Sasuke has the Rinnegan and thus the Sharingan. Simple as that. • Seelentau 愛議 08:13, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Agreed thats what i was saying lol Joshuagallent (talk) 08:44, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

So ignoring which was called which, it's cool and all Seel, but still:
 * why did Kaguya and the Shinju's and Sasuke's "Rinnegan" have the Sharingan tomoe but Hagoromo and Madara's don't? Also does that mean we list Kaguya and Shinju as Rinnegan users as well and Hagoromo as a Sharingan user?--Elveonora (talk) 10:44, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

I think some need to clearly go back and read chapter 671 page 8. The Sage clearly states "My Mother, beside the Byakugan, Possess's the Sharingan's "power". It was a gruesome eye "power", and she used it on people. In that statment He is clearly and only referring to the "power" of sharingan hence (gruesome power) Eternal Tsukyomi not sharingan itself. She used the gruesome power of sharingan --> eternal tsukyomi. Look at the characteristics of her third eye and how it looks. You cannot ignore those details of her eye. If it was a sharingan and i mean specifically "sharingan" like uchiha characteristics then it would have looked like a sharingan. Sure i get the concept you have above, saying that rinnegan is a sharingan, but that doesnt exactly apply in all cases, maybe in kaguya case. Kishimoto wouldn't be that off to say that sasuke who clearly has a rinnegan with the same characteristics as kaguya's third eye, is rinnegan, and then say in kaguya's case its only sharingan, that would not make a lick of sense. Kaguya has the rinnegan, the didnt specifically say that she physically had sharingan..--Ankhael (talk) 12:13, April 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * "Every Rinnegan is a Sharingan."
 * So, Nagato has a Sharingan?--~Ultimate Supreme  15:20, April 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * Being that Nagato's Rinnegan was originally Madara's.....Umishiru (talk) 15:23, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * I would say yes, but until we know more, that statement only applies to the Tomoe Rinnegan. It was called both, so it is both. • Seelentau 愛議 15:45, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah he only meant that she had the power of sharingan. --Ankhael (talk) 16:22, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah... no. Sorry dude, but just... no. • Seelentau 愛議 16:23, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think life will just be easier if we keep them character specific, at least until the volume is released. Kaguya's is a Sharingan, Sasuke's is a Rinnegan. Party happy dance.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:54, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

say wha??, really Lol, but the manga states that she has the power of sharingan Lol,. Oh alright I forget how naruto wiki is now Lol, speculate until the next chapter reveals what it sometimes already reveal. We'll wait on this one. It's not like I can do anything anyways LOL party happy dance!!!--Ankhael (talk) 23:04, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Since people are so intent on having Kaguya listed as a Sharingan user why don't we just list her as both since the Rinnegan evolves from the Sharingan.

Either way it doesn't change the fact that the Dojutsu that Sasuke/Kaguya/Juubi all share was called a Rinnegan and she should be listed a user as a Rinnegan because of that.--Thdyingbreed (talk) 01:20, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

She had Sharingan and Rinnegan. But she was using the Sharingans powers with her Tomoe Rinnegan hence Hagoromo talking about the eye and Infinite Tsukuyomi at the same time... that is the only logical thing, especially when the same eye is in Sasuke yet it was BLATANTLY called Rinnegan by Madara, when talking about the eye directly. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 02:03, April 20, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya has Sharingan and Byakugan. Her eye powers were called Sharingan and Byakugan. NOT Rinnegan. Something that is a big problem with people arguing stuff is that lots of people come here repeating the words of the scanlations. Scanlations have mistakes. We see them week in week out. If they didn't, we wouldn't nearly as many discussions when a chapter comes out. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:45, April 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * But it WASN'T called SHARINGAN the text said POWER OF THE SHARINGAN. Basically, it NEVER said that she HAD THE SHARINGAN but it's POWER. That is an important difference. Even when you translate the raws, it was POWER OF THE SHARINGAN. She was never actually stated to have it.


 * Having it's POWER and having the actual object are 2 different things.--Deathmailrock (talk) 19:24, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

What are you, slow? You clearly haven't been paying attention to any of discussions about this topic. The Japanese raw stated that Kaguya had the Sharingan eye itself, the English scan was a mistake. We follow what the raw states and not the scans for they make mistakes. Unless it is explicitly stated otherwise that Kaguya has the Rinnegan, stop trying to bring up a debate that is already dead. WindStar7125 (talk) 19:37, April 24, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125


 * Did anyone in the discussion state that she had the sharingan in the raw?Not that I read..... Did you actually translate the raw?--Deathmailrock (talk) 02:28, April 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * I did. She has the power of the Sharingan. This was said while an eye was shown which resembles the Sharingan, only with more Tomoe. You don't say that someone has the power of x, while showing something completely unrelated to X. I don't understand why you're so desperate about her not having the Sharingan, but it doesn't change anything. It's not our fault if people lack basic comprehension skills. It was called Sharingan with nine Tomoe and in Kaguya's head, it was called Rinnegan with (most likely) six Tomoe, while in Sasuke's head. That's how we're gonna keep it until new information comes up. It doesn't matter if you like that or not, you can sit alone in your room all day drawing eyes and calling them Rinnegan, I don't care. But please don't let your personal rage flow into wiki-related discussions. • Seelentau 愛議 02:39, April 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * So that eye has the power of the sharingan......... that eye having the power of the sharingan doesn't mean that it actually is the sharingan..... showing that eye was so that we knew what it looked like and the words were stating it's power not it's name...... It's not personal rage, it wasn't called a sharingan.... it's like a snack, just because it tastes like an apple doesn't mean it is an apple.... power of is different from actually being that thing.... because Naruto was said to look like Minato, does that mean he is Minato..... that terms power of seems to compare rather than name. It's because this is a wiki why this issue is so important. It looks like the rinnegan with tomeo--Deathmailrock (talk) 03:25, April 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'm putting a stop to this. Seel translated the Raws. It was not called the "power of the Rinnegan", but, in fact, the "power of the Sharingan". Sharingan is what it was called and you can deny it all day, in bold, italics, underlines, and in rainbow colors, for all I care, but the matter is settled. Kaguya's was called Sharingan, Sasuke's Rinnegan. So that's what they, individually, are. That is the end of the discussion, because, frankly, its getting out of hand. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 04:25, April 26, 2014 (UTC)

To add to this, I'd like to point out again that we're in the final phase of an ongoing manga. Therefore, inconsistencies likes this are to be expected. Only because we call her eye a Sharingan and Sasuke's eye a Rinnegan now, doesn't mean that it won't ever change. We have very little information about the recent revelations, so even if we're not completely right with what we're stating, you aren't, either. No one right now besides Kishimoto knows the bigger picture. That's why discussions like this aren't helpful to the wiki as they were, say, a year ago. Most of what we knew has been overthrown for good, yet people try to fit recent revelations in what they know already. This leads to even more confusion, which is why I repeatedly said to wait with adding unnecessary speculation. Long story short, what Fox said. • Seelentau 愛議 09:39, April 26, 2014 (UTC)

what has become of wiki, not to offend anyone but are you guys choosing to be stupid? I'm not being funny here even though it's a little humorous, I'm actually wondering how can you misread a statement from the manga or any reading material for that matter. Let me give an example here and some answers choices, let say I stated that "I had the "power of Naruto"... A. Does that makes me naruto? Or B. Does it just mean I had the powers/abilities of naruto?--Ankhael (talk) 22:02, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

Go read my first comment in this topic again. If you still don't get it, go read it again. Your argument fails because it hangs on a mistranslation. The term used for what Kaguya had is a synonym to "dōjutsu", and has been used in the manga at least as far back as Five Kage Summit arc. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:12, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

Ah the old so call translation mistake. Except every website that shows the manga even naruto viz, which is a very reliable website even translate that she was said to have the power of sharingan. A similar situation emerge about Sasuke's eye. Naruto Viz translated that madara referred Sasuke's eye as the "one eyed rinnegan" which is pretty strange. But it wouldn't long before the manga reveals the name of the "third eye" on madara and kaguya's forehead. Im pretty sure the next chapter is going to give the name of that third eye.--Ankhael (talk) 22:44, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

You're not reading what I'm saying. I'm talking about the term 瞳力, "dōryuko". Hagoromo uses it to describe Kaguya's "eye power", which means both the Byakugan and the Sharingan. The same term has been used at least as far back the Five Kage Summit. It's been used interchangeably with dōjutsu, referring to both the eye and the jutsu used with it. The chapter says he used those dōryuko to cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:49, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

I dont see how that term confirms what her third eye is except for describing the eye's power. And know now that madara possess the same third eye, i guessing your going assume he has a sharingan on his forehead.--Ankhael (talk) 04:14, May 21, 2014 (UTC)


 * This is really getting tiresome. Please troll elsewhere. You've been told that it will be called Sharingan, as per the literal translation of the manga, until the tankoban comes out and either corrects it or confirms it. Period. End of argument. Good night. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 05:46, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

alright I will go alone with the ignorance(not knowing info correctly) for now. :) the third eye on Kaguya and Madara forehead that has the ability to cast infinite tsukuyomi is "called" sharingan, "ignoring" all the official translated mangas across the Web. :) until the true term for the eye is revealed farewell my naruto wiki theorist :)--Ankhael (talk) 07:52, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

Okay what is the deal with the troll that keeps adding Rinnegan back to Kaguya, after we all agreed that it was not confirmed? The manga translations said she only possessed sharingan and Byakugan not a Rinnegan. Also someone blocked the textual editing of the page to prevent the removal of the Rinnegan addition. --ElvinWindSword (talk) 19:18, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Latest chapter called Madara's third eye a Rinnegan, Kaguya's was the same as his is, so unless you want to be the guy with a tinfoil hat, there's no doubt. There's a difference between being cautious and paranoid.--Elveonora (talk) 21:03, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

So what does that mean for the Sharingan listing? The only way I can rationalize this is if the "power of the Sharingan" Hagoromo spoke of being an aspect of that Rinnegan's power, much like Sharingan's power is described as Dōsatsugan and Saimingan (see Sharingan article). I believe it's safe to assume that this power is only present in the red, tomoed Rinnegan. Now, what does that mean for her Rinnegan listing? And before someone else brings up the "the Rinnegan is a Sharigan" argument, I point that the Rinnegan that has the power of the Sharingan looks very different from the vanilla Rinnegan. Madara didn't have access to all his Sharingan abilities when he had the Rinnegan. IT was cast by a red, tomoed Rinnegan, which would have the "power of the Sharingan". If this discussion is already happening elsewhere, I haven't found it yet, but if there is one, please direct me there. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:20, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, I have been talking back and forth with Ten-Tailed Fox on Sasuke's Rinnegan but... I do agree that the power of the Sharingan resides in the red tomoed Rinnegan. Two examples of this notion are Madara and Sasuke. Madara uses that third eye to cast a Sharingan jutsu, in other words, Tsukuyomi -- Infinite Tsukuyomi. Sasuke, on the other hand, can use his Sharingan and Rinnegan powers simultaneously, as shown with him using Susanoo with his Rinnegan. Like how Madara and Hagoromo possess the same Rinnegan, the former, Sasuke and Kaguya possess the same red tomoed, one eyed Rinnegan due to all of them, with the exception of Hagoromo, using the powers of the Sharingan (or Mangekyo Sharingan in some cases) in conjunction with the red tomoe Rinnegan (in Madara's case, he didn't even need eyes to use Susanoo, so no one come at me with that "Madara used Susanoo with the dual Rinnegan too" sh*t). WindStar7125 (talk) 22:41, May 28, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125

The way I see it, Rinnegan and Sharingan were originally the same thing, just a Rinnegan. But the "Sharingan" aspect of it got split and turned into a separate doujutsu when it appeared in paired eyes. Basically, when someone is using one-eyed Rinnegan, he/she is also using the "Sharingan" aspect of it. But those with 2 Rinnegan eyes have to switch between the two. Not sure if this makes any sense, but the one-eyed Rinnegan has 9 tomoe, right? Let's say the power of Kaguya's one-eyed Rinnegan split 50/50 for Hagoromo's 2 Rinnegan eyes, but you can't divide 9 by 2. Perhaps that's why the split happened from one-eyed Rinnegan into paired Rinnegan and Sharingan as a separate doujutsu. All just a speculation still tho.--Elveonora (talk) 13:16, May 29, 2014 (UTC)

The background needs to be edited, Kaguya can use the Shinju's third eye and she has the Rinnegan.--World Master (talk) 15:51, May 29, 2014 (UTC)

Wood Release?
Did I miss some chapters?Faust-RSI (talk) 11:43, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Fixed.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 11:51, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

actions and intentions
There has been some debate about if did she whenever attempt to mass-bondage the whole world in order for the tree to have bore another fruit or not. I wouldn't like this get neglected, so how do we proceed? Hagoromo is unlikely to would have known that such a thing were possible if it hadn't happened.--Elveonora (talk) 17:58, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Debate is good and all, but we work with what is stated: Hagoromo said she did it to bring force peace,so we have to say it was for forced peace not to get another fruit.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 18:02, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then what about the fruit, roots and cocoons shown in Hagoromo's "flashback"? It was about Kaguya--Elveonora (talk) 18:13, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Why would she want to create another fruit though - she already ate one. I'm not saying that she didn't have evil intentions - she was probably corrupted by power either way but that might have been a fact rather than a statement of her intent. So we have to wait for more info.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 18:22, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, my whole point is that unless Hagoromo was stating and writing about hypothetical scenarios or could foresee future events, the flashback stuff and what the tablet says must have happened. According to that, someone made an attempt at fruit creation, approached the moon and received third eye etc.--Elveonora (talk) 20:39, May 24, 2014 (UTC)

Regarding the Byakugan
In the "Dōjutsu" column, why is the part "(with the exception of a small blind spot at the upper thoracic vertebrae)" posted.

I don't think it has been mentioned in the story yet that her Byakugan also had the same weakness as the present era Byakugan user have. Also Neji himself pointed out that the weakness could easily be over come (by simply focusing Chakra to that area). Considering that Kaguya could very well be the source of the Hyūga Clan's Byakugan, it can also be assumed that her Byakugan may have actually been much more powerful than the present day Byakugan, and could have been different as well (considering that she even ate the 'Chakra Fruit').

So, i believe that it would be better to remove that part since its actually not confirmed and we just can't assume her Byakugan to be the same as the other members of the present era Hyūga Clan.

But if this has been confirmed through some other source then it ok and please ignore my post.--Supratim1986 (talk) 19:41, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * It doesn't need to be confirmed. It has been confirmed that is the weakness of the Byakugan and it is speculation to assume that she didn't have any weakness to her's as well. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:43, May 24, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya's Will
So Black Zetsu is apparently the will of Kaguya. Which doesn't make much sense. Then you have the Sage's flashback speech where he states that Kaguya's massive ego resided in her power. So that leads me to two options: Kaguya's disembodied will latched onto Black Zetsu because he, being nothing more than Madara's will, gained her power and with that power comes her will. OR Madara is an idiot and somehow poured Kaguya's will, that was chillin inside him for some reason, into Black Zetsu. I doubt any of this can go into the article proper, but I figured we should get this out the way now.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 12:22, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * I doubt we can get this out of the way right now. It's just one more unclear statement we can add to the list. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:28, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * It wasn't likely meant literary. BZ may be Kaguya's will just as much Hidan was Jashin's. BZ presumably finds Kaguya more sympathetic than his own master--Elveonora (talk) 12:32, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * I highly doubt that. Highly. Highly. Doubt that. Just wait until the next chapter. It will undoubtably be explained. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:21, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

Debut
Hi! Excuse me if I'm mistaken, but isn't her debut in the chapter 646. on page 7?

--KPeti01 (talk) 17:41, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * You have a point there, she is mentioned by name and a mural depicting her is shown. I think you're right, but let's see about a second opinion. Atrix471 (talk) 17:58, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

Except that's not actually her. Take Obito for example. We first saw his face in a Team Minato photo on Kakashi's room, but he's actual debut, the one that gets listed in the infobox, is when he first appeared in Kakashi Gaiden. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:09, May 28, 2014 (UTC)