User talk:Seelentau/RTS

Most likely not correct dates
These dates aren't correct. I keep them here for later use.

Hash
Taking this here. Even ignoring the cover, I'm talking about his Tsunade comments. Hiruzen was like 7 during the village's inception and there's 18 years difference between him and Sannin. Hiruzen began teaching 6 years old to-be Sannin, so he was circa 24. That young gambler Tsunade in Hash's flashback looks about 3-4, so Hashirama was still alive about 13 years after his Hokage appointment, outliving Tobirama, since I believe by the time "training facility" got renamed to "academy" he was dead.--Elveonora (talk) 14:31, May 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * Too much speculation. This is one of the cases where we can just wait. Seelentau 愛議 14:47, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

kabuto timeline
I think you are mistaken here, let's try it another way.

To make it simpler, like this:
 * First, wasn't the statement in chapter 121 just an estimate? 7 years was given at the end of Part I. I believe.
 * Itachi cut Oro's hand as 11 years old, hence 10 years pre-part II. after Kabuto and Orochimaru's meeting, meaning Kabuto was 13-14 then due to being 2 years 4 months older than Itachi.
 * Kabuto graduated at 10, meaning even before he had decided to leave with Oro, so when Danzo took him, he was 9, then enrolled 1 year in the Academy and his job in each of 4 villages lasted for a year, hence 5 years ago he had left the orphanage.


 * Kabuto is being found by Nono as 6 years old (17-18 years pre-part II.)
 * Stays in the orphanage for 3 years, until 9 and goes with Danzo (14-15 years pre-part II.)
 * Enrolls in Konoha's Academy and graduates in 1 year (13-14 years pre-part Ii.)
 * Spies for 4 years, noting 5 years to have passed since he had left the orphanage and meets Oro, they leave the root together (9-10 years pre-part II.)
 * days, weeks, months later, they together decide to enter Akatsuki (same)
 * a snake man's hand gets cut (same)

Meaning Orochimaru left the village with Kabuto 6-7 years aNB--Elveonora (talk) 21:38, November 1, 2013 (UTC)


 * Could you tell me where I'm wrong? Seelentau 愛議 23:41, November 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Taking the 10 years given in chapter 121 for granted and assuming Kabuto became a Genin during the time he had left with Oro rather than earlier. The thing that you are correct about tho is that Kabuto was found by Nono during 3rd Shinobi World War, but not as 2 years old but 6. After all, it took place 17/18 years ago, 23/24 (his age) -17/18=6--Elveonora (talk) 13:06, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * Of course I take them for granted. Why wouldn't I?
 * I don't assume that he became an Genin at that time. That was stated in the databook. But he had to be in Konoha to become a Genin, right? And he wasn't in Konoha until he became 10 years old. Seelentau 愛議 13:34, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * Right, but from the way you worded it, I get it you mean he turned 10 years old during the time he left with Orochimaru. I see it he turned 10 right after having been taken by Danzo and enrolling in the Academy and only then was sent to spy--Elveonora (talk) 14:18, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * He turned 10 around the time he returned to Konoha as Kabuto Yakushi. Seelentau 愛議 14:38, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * Plus, the seven years you're talking about are when Oro left Akatsuki, not Konoha. Seelentau 愛議 15:08, November 2, 2013 (UTC)

That's very hard to believe... again, you also say Itachi was 11 while cutting Oro's hand, right? That was 10 years pre-part II. and Kabuto's age 23-10=13, I'm doubtful that Orochimaru was with the Akatsuki for such a long time of 3 years you propose, didn't he go there for the purpose of stealing Itachi's body after all? I see it that they left the village, entered and even left the Akatsuki all of that in a single year.

Appearance isn't a good argument when it comes to Kishimoto I know, but Kabuto looked much older than 10 then, same for his doppelganger on the photos, if Danzo was to convince Nono that some adult looking guy is her 10 years old "son" then she would have had to have been retarded.

Not to mention it's very unlikely for 2 years old to be capable of reading clocks, usually happens between ages 4-6, some don't even later than that--Elveonora (talk) 23:15, November 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * We don't know why Orochimaru joined the Akatsuki. We only know why and when he left it. But we can be sure that he joined the Akatsuki before Itachi did. Oh, and I don't know if that matters, but I noticed that Kabuto was already wearing a Konoha head protector when Orochimaru joined Akatsuki. As I said before, both Orochimarus defecting from the village and from the Akatsuki are given years in the manga. I don't make these dates up, I simply connect them.
 * Appearance is really no argument, that's why I'm not using it. Please don't do it, either.
 * You do realize that Kabuto is as intelligent as Kakashi and Shikamaru, right? Seelentau 愛議 03:47, November 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * ^ Seel nailed on the head and also illuminated my main problem with people trying to correct articles with their self-perceived timelines. If the manga gives a date; let me repeat - a date - or number of years, then it is fine to draw conclusions, so long as they are clear and to the point. Using appearances, intelligence, power level, and otherwise is a flawed way of thinking when it comes to manga/anime, because they purposely overlook that stuff. Also, using your own logic to deduce someone's motives, therefore making X possible, but not Y, is flawed as well. In a written story, you're free to draw your own conclusions, but as far as recording it on an encyclopedia, it has to be point-blank what the author says, whether you think its stupid or not. Speculation always, always leads to corrupted information. Good work on this timeline, btw, Seel. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 05:03, November 3, 2013 (UTC)

Don't worry Fox, we are just discussing, no word about trying to correct anything was given, it's just a chat. @Seel:
 * "But we can be sure that he joined the Akatsuki before Itachi did" Are you sure he entered before Itachi did due to chapter 121 or any other reasons beside that?
 * For the headband, not relevant, we both agree he had it by the time, he could have gotten it much earlier tho, there was just no reason to wear it as a spy in foreign countries, he wore theirs to keep his cover intact, not to blow it.
 * I recall it being said in Part I. that Kakashi Gaiden took place "about 10 years ago" while it was in fact 17-18 years before Part I. and that's almost twice the number given. Not to mention originally Orochimaru left after having been caught during his human experimentation by Hiruzen while later on we saw him deciding to leave himself telling Kabuto that they both will leave to build a village. I'm not degrading chapter 121, but it was written too long ago.

You might as well be right, so be it if that's the case. And I said that appearance and intelligence aren't enough of an argument myself, Itachi is a good example at where it's faulty, but just because it tends to be doesn't mean it has to each time. Generally 9-10 years old boys (depends on if you believe that he in fact graduated or didn't but was given fake data) look nothing like Kabuto did in the latest episode ;) Either Kishi's pencil is getting all drawn out or Kabuto eats lots of fruits and vegetables.

I'm gonna end this with what I said earlier, if almost two decades can easily be turned by Kishi into "about one decade" then over 10 years ago might be 6-7 years.--Elveonora (talk) 12:05, November 3, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not expecting you to add my timeline information to any article. This is more of a prediction and when the manga is finished and (hopefully) everything is clear, I can say "ha! told you so!". :)
 * We can be sure because Itachi killed his clan years after Orochimaru founded Otogakure and took Kabuto in. Orochimaru wanted information about the Akatsuki, when Kabuto thinks back, Itachi isn't even shown. I don't know why I wrote that yesterday, maybe it's just my intuition^^
 * But we got more exact dates for Kakashi Gaiden. In this case, we only have ~10 years, stated by Orochimaru himself. I worked with what I have, not what else could've been meant or so.
 * What speaks against Orochimaru leaving afte being found by Hiruzen and telling Kabuto they'd leave Konoha? Maybe Hiruzen found out, Orochimaru decided to defect from the village, took on the mission to kill Kabuto and instead told him about everything. Seelentau 愛議 13:15, November 3, 2013 (UTC)