Talk:Nature Transformation

The third kazekage
Was Iron sand a KKG? If so it probably should be in the advanced nature diagram with a question mark, because it would fit in the last spot of lightning and wind fusion. That could be the last advanced nature that the image needs, and can be confimed with this new ark naruto is on, since kabuto is resurrecting everyone. --reloader
 * Yes, it is a kekkei genkai, but no, it was never said to be an actual element. Of course, it could be revealed as one, bu so far it hasn't even been given an Xton name. —ShounenSuki (talk 12:53, December 30, 2010 (UTC)

Explosion
The kanji for Explosion is 爆発 (Bakuhatsu) not 爆發 --Leodix/My Talk/Contributions''' 04:02, January 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well actually, both are right, since they are the same kanji in different forms. I changed it as you said since that second one is the Japanese simplified version. --GoDai (talk) 05:00, January 5, 2011 (UTC)

Too much speculation
Hi!

In my opinion, the part about advanced types contains too many speculative points. For example:
 * It was never said that Shouton is an element or an advanced one. Afaik they even said it is created by crystalizing the surroundings.
 * It was never said which natures Futton and Ranton entails or if they even are advanced natures.
 * There is no sign that Enton is an adv. nature. If it is, it would be created by mixing Ka and Kaminari, since these are the only natures Sasuke possess.

I just wanted to notice that. Also, the picture is displaying the speculative parts as if they're confirmed, but since they aren't it would be better to leave them out of the picture. Also, the speculative natures should be put in an extra section. Seelentau 愛議 13:58, January 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * )Anything that's not the four basic elements (fire, water, earth, wind) are advanced nature elements, what much is known.
 * )Boil and Storm, if I remember correctly was based off what we know the users use. In for example, based off Yamato's explaination of Wood Release, using different chakra natures in each hand to produce wood, Durai preformed the same with Lightning and Water.
 * )Again, anything that's not the original four have been called advanced nature. Even if we don't understand much about it.
 * ) The advanced nature chart is all kinds of confusing to me so I'm not even going to comment on it.--TheUltimate3 ~Aspect of Wiki ~ 14:50, January 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * That would mean, Raiton is an adv. nature, too?^^ Who said that everything, that's not one of the five natures, is an adv. nature?
 * But it is speculation, nothing else. What if he has another nature that he uses for Ranton? Of course we can only go by what we know but at least we should write down that it is speculation. Seelentau 愛議 15:02, January 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * he left out lightning by accident. And it really isn't speculation it's simply a way to document everything. Since we already have basic information about the 4 basic elements then everything has to stem from them naturally. If and when the time comes for changes to be made we can move from --Cerez365 (talk) 15:08, January 7, 2011 (UTC)there


 * There's a difference between speculating and making logical conclusions. If we only ever went by what was literally stated or unambiguously shown in the series, we wouldn't be able to make a useful encyclopædia. The elements for Futton were based on the elements the Mizukage said she had and on the known combinations of Mokuton and Yōton. The elements for Ranton were stated in the Second Fanbook. Everything we aren't 100% certain of is actually worded i such a way that the uncertainty is clear. —ShounenSuki (talk 16:37, January 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * And if you actually look at the image showing the advanced natures, you'll see that every nature with an unconfirmed composition has this little question mark right besides it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:29, January 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * Okay, thank you all for answering my concerns. I understand now, why the natures are stated as they are and how you came to those conclusions. Thank you for clarifying that. I am still sure that the Shouton isn't an adv. element, since they said it in the anime, afaik. Episode 331 or so. Maybe you'd like to check that out. If not, it's okay. Seelentau 愛議 18:50, January 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * Shōton was all but explicitly said to be an advanced nature. Guren told Kakashi that he wouldn't be able to copy it with his Sharingan. The only things Sharingan can't copy is summoning techniques for animals they don't have a contract with, hiden jutsu, and kekkei genkai. There's also limitation to the stuff they can actually use as well. And everything that isn't one of the five basic natures is an advanced nature. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:59, January 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * When was it described as an adv. nature? If they said that it is one, it's fine with me but as I said, I don't remember them saying that, but rather remember them saying that it is not an adv. nature. Seelentau 愛議 19:17, January 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * It's one of those implied things you infer from previously available information, much like the components of Boil Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:00, January 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * I think what he means is...What is to say it is an advanced nature KKG and not just a regular KKG? Similar to the bone kkg user, he does not use a "bone advanced nature kkg", just a "bone kkg". Making crystal release be "crystal kkg" and not "crystal advanced nature kkg".  At least, that is what I gather he is refering to.SkyFlicker (talk) 20:11, January 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * but the fact that it's called a Release like all other advanced natures it's more than logical to assume that it's an advanced nature kkg --Cerez365 (talk) 20:18, January 7, 2011 (UTC)

What I mean is that anyone (except for me, I can't do it) could check out episode 331, when Rinji explains Guren's Shouton, and tell us what he said, if it is a KG/adv- nature or not. That would solve the mystery and answer my question. And that it is called a release doesn't make it one officialy, since it's a filler (just like the movie-Hyouton) Seelentau 愛議 21:21, January 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * So, any news 'bout that? I'd really like to clarify this but I have no way to watch the said episode at the moment. Seelentau 愛議 22:28, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * I didn't watch, but I don't think we have to. You are questioning something solely on the basis of the one specific thing about it not being explicitly spelled out. We consider everything mentioned in the series to consider that one thing is one thing and not another. Considering everything that is known about chakra natures and kekkei genkai, this is, without a question, an advanced chakra nature. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:48, January 14, 2011 (UTC)

What i'm curious about is, why you insist on having Blaze Release as an Advanced Chakra Nature, when it has been confirmed it's not. Sasuke don't mix any chakras he merely control Amateratsu with his sharingan. It's not even a Kekkei Genkai (Well if you don't count the fact that's a power from the Sharingan which is a kekkei genkai :D). KenjiNitari (talk) 18:13, August 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * O que la =_=. Sasuke called the thing En  ton  literally meaning Inferno " Style " Just like every other nature manipulation technique that has ever been shown in the series. Now unless Sasuke is a braggart, which despite being a lot of things he isn't, I don't see a reason why he'd call it a release when it is not or why Kishimoto would do that. The articles here take time and effort to write, I don't see why people refuse to read them.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 18:31, August 11, 2011 (UTC)


 * I know that, but i want to know why they insist on it being a mix, when we know that so far it isn't. And i think we should use the spots on the Mix Chakra Nature diagram for something more important, when we know that this one isn't a Mix. KenjiNitari (talk) 22:08, August 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * Because so far, all advanced elements are shown to be a mix. Unless there's a something about advanced natures we have yet to learn, Blaze Release has to go somewhere. Before we learned that three-element combinations were possible, we listed Dust as Earth and Wind. When we learned what it was, it was changed. We're just going with every bit of information given us until this moment. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:58, August 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * It still makes no sense to me to place a jutsu who so far have been stated is NOT a mix, into a Mix Nature slot, but whatever. KenjiNitari (talk) 22:08, August 11, 2011 (UTC)
 * We were never said that Blaze Release isn't a nature combination. For all we know, it could be a combination of Fire Release with either Yin or Yang, since those were also called natures. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:12, August 11, 2011 (UTC)

Explosion release
Since dust release is labeled as "earth and another unspecified nature" because the Tsuchikage can use earth release, would it be alright to label explosion release as "earth and another unspecified nature" as well? Since Deidara could use earth release.--Red-kun (talk) 23:04, January 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * Deidara is the only reason why Explosion is listed as a possible earth and lightning. For all we know, it could just as easily be fire and lightning, which I think makes more sense. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:20, January 7, 2011 (UTC)

Yes but if Deidara can use earth release doesn't that mean earth is one of the components of explosion release? Otherwise that would basically be saying Deidara has 3 natures. I know that's a possibility but wouldn't it be less speculative to list earth as one of the components?--Red-kun (talk) 23:55, January 7, 2011 (UTC)

Deidara having three (technically four: Explosion, both its components and Earth) isn't so far fetched, it would be the same case as Kurotsuchi. Normally, I would agree with you, but Deidara complicates the situation by using the kinjutsu he stole. We had this idea of how Deidara used exploding clay, we just didn't know that the exploding chakra was an actual nature. With the kinjutsu changes things, because as far as we know, Earth Release is used only to animate the clay. Deidara has always been a complicated character. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:07, January 8, 2011 (UTC)

Bakuton must have Earth Release since Sasuke Lightning's chakra can cancel it and can´t have Wind Release beacause wind overpowers lightning and lightning overpowers explosion. The other element can't be fire, wind or water. In conclusion Bakuton = Doton + Raiton.

Well it could also just mean that, Deidara's Clay is Earth-based and he infuses it with this Explosion Release (In this case Fire + Lightning) and because the Clay is Earth, Lightning cancels it out, making it impossible to Deidara to make it explode. KenjiNitari (talk) 12:47, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

Bloodline Expansions
Okay, with this new development, should there be a new section for Bloodline Expansions, the combination of three base elements? Not to mention a redo of the advanced element chart.--Kagi mizu -Seeya 'round 06:31, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

As much as the revelation of 3 element combinations are a mixed blessing. I wonder if Kurotsuchi has a bloodline expansion as well with her having three elements and being Onoki's granddaughter.Umishiru (talk) 06:36, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

The chapter mentioned that only the Second and Third Tsuchikage were able to do that, so I wouldn't say so. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:19, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

So is it still safe to agree that maybe gaaras is still in the running for wind and earth only, and dust release is now a 3 element jutsu. And does the manga suggest that the second earth kage has the exact same ability as the third?I still cannot believe something called dust has fire fused in that make absoulty no sence--reloader.

If your burn something, it is reduced to ashes. The connection isn't that absurd. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:08, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm despite them saying it was the only one I wanna believe their will be more. As well dust being earth wind and fire isn't absurd i mean the vast majority of dust is just dead skin anyway. The way I look at is it makes more sense than with lightning or water in it (especially water). The element I wanted to see was ash element but that dream died with Asumas combustible ash cloud.Kordeleski (talk) 16:46, February 10, 2011 (UTC)

Advanced Natures
In the "Advanced Natures" section, the terms "Advanced Nature" and "Elementally-recomposed nature" are mentioned, but they have no kanji or references to where they were mentioned. Perhaps we should change the section to "Kekkei Genkai Types" or "Simultaneous Nature Tranformation"? After all, the manga did explain that Ice chakra is chakra that has been simultaneously transformed into Water chakra and Wind chakra at the same time, giving it the properties of both natures as well as new properties. --GoDai (talk) 19:37, January 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * ↑This. Are there any references for the term elementally-recomposed nature type? Seelentau 愛議 00:42, May 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * I do believe the manga simply uses the term 'nature transformation' to refer to the different chakra natures. E.g.:
 * What we call 'advanced natures' have never been given an actual official term in the manga, as far as I remember. —ShounenSuki (talk 08:45, May 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * What we call 'advanced natures' have never been given an actual official term in the manga, as far as I remember. —ShounenSuki (talk 08:45, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

Crystal Release/Blaze Release???
What i don't get is, why is Crystal Release and Blaze Release categorized as Advanced Elements?

Crystal Release is from a Filler Arc, meaning it's non-cannon and so, shouldn't be considered true until showed in the Manga.

Blaze Realse has been proved to NOT be an Advanced Element. It's just Sasuke manipulating Amaterasu with his Sharingan, no mixing of elements.

I think we should put Blaze Release in another categoty and put Crystal release somewhere else.

KenjiNitari (talk) 12:47, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

Every " -Release" is an element. → Crystal and Blaze are elements. Every element that isn't one of the five basic is an advanced one. → Crystal and Blaze are advanced elements.

We list things from all media, not just the manga. There is very little available info on Blaze Release, which differs from what we know about nature transformation. With the information we have, it is definitely an advanced nature. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:34, February 3, 2011 (UTC)

I know Blaze Release is an Element, but it's not made by any mixing of two elements, that's why i think we should catelogize it somewhere else. KenjiNitari (talk) 12:49, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

We don't know that. For all we know, it could be made by mixing Fire and Yin, or Fire and Yang. Yin and Yang are elements as well. There's no where else to list it where it would make sense. Also, you're supposed to sign your posts with four "~". Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 11:04, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, could be, i completely forgot about Yin and Yand releases KenjiNitari (talk) 12:49, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

I don't think of Yin and yang as releases and won't until I see something about it as an element. The reason for this is that Naruto is a simpleton at heart and barley learned the wind element and yet he can manipulate two other releases just like that I see them as shades of intent not elements and with them out of the way blaze just seems like fire to me.

EDIT: Yes I did make a mistake while yin and yang are infact releases they are not really elements they are basic chakra which is what is molded into the elements with hand signs.

Kordeleski (talk) 16:53, February 10, 2011 (UTC)

Your point? Lava is just earth heated up to a certain temperature, Ice is just water lowered to a certain temperature, Boil is just water heated to scolding temperatures, scorch is just heat waves. When you break it down, they are just derivatives of one of the elements in concept. Blaze is Amaterasu, which is fire at hot as the sun, for all we know it could be Fire + Lighting.It was given the -ton prefix and till Kishi reveals more about it, it stays.Umishiru (talk) 17:00, February 10, 2011 (UTC)

How ever my mistake did hold some value yes the elements are just slightly edit forms of the baser forms but with the basic elements all they can really do is manipulate them they need the second element to form and manipulate the advanced elements.

>.> I'm gonna leave the value statement alone but all I am saying is that regulating it to "oh it just fire" is not paying attention to the manga at all. On Yin and Yang, it has already been said that they are manipulated through Izanagi, Medical Ninjutsu, and the source of Nara, Akimichi, Yamanaka clan jutsu, genjutsu. So yes they can be focused on.Umishiru (talk) 17:13, February 10, 2011 (UTC)

>>> OK my original point was that yin and yang were not elements and my logic was Say you mold your natural chakra into fire style. Then you throw in more natural chakra doesn't that seem like your watering it down. Aswell what is the speculation for Fire + Wind because blaze seems more likely to be those elements should it be a release. (since a back draft involving air can create super hot flames)Kordeleski (talk) 17:25, February 10, 2011 (UTC)

Edit: Ok maybe scorch makes more sense in that spot

Yin and Yang are elements however they are elements inherent to chakra, which can be combined into to normal chakra, focused on for the jutsu listed in my previous comment, or merged into Yin-Yang release.Umishiru (talk) 02:35, February 14, 2011 (UTC)

I thought that being a release it does not mean it has to be an element or advanced element. How can we know that the release is not just the manipulation in a desired way, for example the blaze release in which before the Enton Release the amaterasu was not in his desired control but just flames wherever he placed the sight on and when he used the Release he could manipulated them with shape and desired structure. And by the way, does everybody has to go bananas with advance nature combination? Is just an speculation you shouldnt argue about points of view until it is confirmed in canon am i right?? ToonLiger (talk) 15:35, February 14, 2011 (UTC)

Release means an element is being involed. We know its not a shape manipulation since usually the user has used 1 of teh elements required to make at least once, Amaterasu is an enimga, it could be that Blaze release is granted by the MS, but till we know more, its just speculation, we go by what the manga saids, from there we have been very accurate, inwhich case everyones thesis one Wind _ Earth was wrong but that was never writen in the article so it doesn't matter. Advanced alement users usually also use the elements that make it up, so we can easily deduce the combinations, due to how Blaze release was brought out, a databook is needed.Umishiru (talk) 16:00, February 14, 2011 (UTC)

You don't suppose the American Serialization of Shonen Jump Magazine is a reliable source, do you? It lists Crystal release as a combination of Water and Earth Natures. (It also lists Deidara's Explosion Release as a combination of Fire and Earth, but that is less prevalent in this topic.) Do you suppose this is valid? It is Issue 3, of 2012; Page 38. Just wanted to ask out of curiosity. FerrowFarm (talk) 22:49, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Could you show some evidence? A scan would be nice. —ShounenSuki (talk 22:59, February 2, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I do not own a scanner. But maybe someone who still gets Shonen Jump Monthly in America can put it up for me (2012, Issue 3, March. Page 38). The Page itself is an advert for the 4th tournament pack of the Naruto TCG. The fourth Card (Guren) displayed has a caption that reads, word for word, "Guren, Once one of Orochimaru's most loyal followers, "Guren (N-1350)" uses the rare Crystal style by uniting Earth and Water Chakra. Her ability puts the freeze on any Ninja by preventing them from Attacking and joining any teams." That is the full text. I understand the validity of this info is probably lessened by the fact that it is an ad for a TCG, but I thought it was something worth noting. I would really appreciate anyone who can put a picture of this up so I don't sound crazy. (And I find this ironic due to how questionable this makes the source seem, but the third card listed is Deidara, and his TCG serial number is N-1337. That made me laugh a little.) FerrowFarm (talk) 00:10, February 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * Although it doesn't have the captions, what you said matches up with the elements listed on the cards shown here. Unfortunately, the card game has had a long history of getting things horribly wrong, and both those combinations of elements are already in use for other elements. —ShounenSuki (talk 07:15, February 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * Thank you very much for bringing that information to light. If it had been true, then my theory about nature ratios would have some backing as Crystal and Wood, as well as Magma and explosion, had common basic elements. That however is discussion of another topic. The captions are listed next to the card identified in the advert. It is ordered something like this. Two rows of two cards. To the right of each card is the caption containing information about the character (In this case, all four cards are characters. I have not played the TCG, so I do not know of any other cards. This, again, is discussion for another topic). Again, thank you very much for pointing this out and correcting me. FerrowFarm (talk) 11:14, February 3, 2012 (UTC)

Advanced Affinity?
I'm sorry I ask so many questions but is it possible to have an advanced affinity? Izuma51 (talk) 03:20, February 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * If by advanced affinity you mean an advanced nature as an affinity like Naruto has wind as his affinity, we don't know. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:58, February 13, 2011 (UTC)


 * Judging by the ease of use, I'd suspect that almost all kekkei genkai users effectively have an affinity for their advanced nature. With the possible exception of implanted ones like Danzo. ZeroSD (talk) 15:03, February 13, 2011 (UTC)

Ninjas who have a nature-related kekkei genkei can possibly have an advanced affinity. Although, an affinity is more commonly related to one of the five most basic elements. Kekkei Genkei that are innate to their users are most likely also capable of using the basic elements making up their advanced natures.YonbiAzai (talk) 05:10, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

I don't really like the term "Advanced Affinity", but I understand what is meant, so I'll use it too. If I remember correctly, Haku discovered his Ice Release accidentally. The analogue to this would be the concept of Accidental Magic from the Harry Potter Verse. When you consider the uniqueness of Senju Hashirama's Wood Release, this analogue works even better. (It is highly unlikely that they just happened to combine wind+water, or earth+water.)
 * If you ask: Is there proof for Advanced Affinities? Then the answer is: No.
 * If you ask: Is it heavily implied that Advanced Affinities exist? Then I'd say: Yes.

One unfortunate (and hasty) conclusion would be that affinity is synonymous with the unique quality of your chakra. In other words, why would Naruto need to learn to transform his chakra into wind chakra when he naturally produces wind chakra. The answer is: he doesn't. We're talking about 2 distinct phenomenon. At this point, you might ask how it is known that Wood Release, for example, is the combination of water and earth elements. We'll have to leave the world of hypothesizing and enter the world of fiction to answer that. Maybe Hashirama was a curious boy and experimented with several D-Rank elemental jutsu, and he discovered that Earth Release and Water Release were very easy for him, and concluded that his Wood Release was Water+Earth. The simple fact remains though. While the concept of Advanced Affinites works very well in the Naruto World, it doesn't work well with the fact that Elemental Kekkei Genkai are made by combining 2 basic elements.
 * 1) Basic Chakra Affinity: The phenomenon that most ninja are born with mostly neutral chakra---but with enough properties to test for an affinity to one of the 5 basic chakra natures.
 * 2) Advanced Chakra Affinity: The phenomenon that elemental Kekkei Genkai users are born with chakra that has a distinct quality (Ice Release, Wood Release).

However. While Yamato explicitly stated that he created water chakra in one hand and earth chakra in the other and then merged it to create Wood Release, it does make you wonder how Onoki manages to combine 3 elements while being a hand short. In other words, it should be possible to transform your chakra into Dust Release in one step. The fact that Yamato is a genetic experiment helps in that regard. The problem is that Yamato's explanation does work for all the elemental Kekkei Genkai that consist of 2 basic elements.

To summarize. Be careful with the term "Advanced Affinity" because it means something quite different. The hypothesis of Advanced Chakra Affinities works really well in the Naruto World. But trying to fit all the observations within the confines of the hypothesis involves too many assumptions and too much fictionalizing for it to become anything more than an hypothesis.--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 13:21, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

Dark really Meian?
I searched how Dark is said in Japanese. From two sources, I didnt found "meian" or kanji "冥暗". Instead, when the two kanji are separated, they both means dark, and when combined, shade or gloom. So i want to ask, is it really the correct, or a typo of someone? VolteMetalic (talk) 21:17, July 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * 冥暗 really does mean darkness. The dictionary I use says:


 * mei-an (冥暗／冥▽闇)
 * 1 That which is dark. Darkness.
 * "Even with the light that the Moon and Sun grant me, I am facing a life of —" (Taiheki, chapter 4)
 * 2 The inability to reach enlightenment in the underworld.
 * "If you show filial piety, I can be saved from —" (Nō: The Fisherman)


 * めい‐あん【冥暗／冥▽闇】
 * 1 暗いこと. くらやみ.
 * 「月日の光をも見給はねば、一生―の中に向かって」〈太平記・四〉
 * 2 冥土(めいど)の迷い.
 * 「君孝行たらば、わが―を助けよ」〈謡・海人〉


 * —ShounenSuki (talk 22:02, July 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * My dictionary says otherwise. Separated "mei" means dark, and "an" means darkness".VolteMetalic (talk) 22:13, July 23, 2011 (UTC)
 * Why would you separate the kanji of a word? Separately, the kanji 寿 and 司 mean 'longevity' and 'office', respectively; together they mean 'sushi'. —ShounenSuki (talk 22:36, July 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * Hmm... my source is this link. I dont know than.VolteMetalic (talk) 22:56, July 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * I repeat my question: why would you use a kanji dictionary for a word consisting of two kanji? Do you look at the meaning of each individual syllable of English words when figuring out their meaning as well? —ShounenSuki (talk 23:39, July 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * English and Japanese are little different in this :) I am not sure what you are saying now, about the "use a kanji dictionary for a word consisting of two kanji"?VolteMetalic (talk) 10:05, July 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm saying it's ridiculous that you're trying to figure out the basic meaning of a word by seeing what each individual kanji means, instead of simply looking up the actual word in a normal dictionary.
 * For instance, take a word like 当たり前. The individual kanji mean 'hit'/'success' and 'in front'/'before', respectively. The whole word means 'obvious'/'common'. The individual meanings of kanji often have little to no bearing on the combined meaning of the whole word. What you're doing is almost like looking up individual syllables of English words to see what they mean when combined together. —ShounenSuki (talk 12:26, July 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * For example chairman, huh? ;) What does the ▽ mean, btw? Is it a Kanji, too? Oo Seelentau 愛議 14:10, July 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * 'Chairman' is a nice example ^^
 * The ▽ indicates that a kanji reading is used that isn't included in the jōyō kanji list. In this case, 闇 is only given the reading 'yami' on this list. Since the reading 'an' is used here, the ▽ is prefixed to the kanji. —ShounenSuki (talk 14:45, July 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * When i was searching for word "dark" in English, no results showed me it is "meian".VolteMetalic (talk) 20:09, July 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Did you use that dictionary you linked to? —ShounenSuki (talk 20:41, July 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, and the closest to it was "mei-suru". Mei-an/Meian isnt there.VolteMetalic (talk) 17:50, July 25, 2011 (UTC)

Well an important aspect that should be considered here is that "dark" or "darkness" usually translates to "暗" or "闇", both translating to Darkness, "Yami" and Darkness Release, "Anton." --GoDai (talk) 20:28, July 25, 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually no, that isn't even remotely the reason why VolteMetalic didn't find 冥暗. The real reason is very simply: he was using a kanji dictionary. Kanji dictionaries only list the meanings and pronunciations of individual kanji. Of course he wouldn't find a word written with two kanji in there. —ShounenSuki (talk 17:28, July 26, 2011 (UTC)


 * And Google Translate isnt good enought to find it either :PVolteMetalic (talk) 20:48, July 26, 2011 (UTC)
 * Google Translate isn't a dictionary either. Try one of those, you'd be surprised. Well, if you find a good one. 冥暗 isn't the most common term, given it's religious connotations. I doubt many simple English–Japanese dictionaries would list the word. You'd have more success with a Japanese–Japanese dictionary, which is where the entry I gave above came from. —ShounenSuki (talk 22:41, July 26, 2011 (UTC)

Rinnegan
Is it correct that the Rinnegan grants the user ALL natures or does it only HELP him learning all natures? I always thought it's the latter, but the article says the first is correct... Seelentau 愛議 11:12, August 1, 2011 (UTC)

Well i was wondering about this myself. I was thinking that perhaps Rinnegan only gives you an affinity too all five chakra natures instead of only one which you usually has. Imagine if you have Rinnegan and the ability to mix Chakras, wuold be awesome. KenjiNitari (talk) 11:56, August 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * From what I understand it allows you to learn anything that isn't Hiden or Kekkei Genkai. From what Jiraiya said it seemingly grants them all natures. Whether or not they want to learn to use it, is their business--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 12:13, August 1, 2011 (UTC)

jinchuriki an tailed beasts nature transformations
i was just thinking apperently some jinchuriki can gain a kekkei genkai from their tailed beasts. then why cant the jinchuriki get one of the five basic elements from their tailed beasts like, lets say naruto uses fire release just like the nine tails, right?--Charmanking2198 (talk)


 * Naruto has never used Fire Release. Canonically, only the One-Tail and the Four-Tails have elemental techniques, and both their hosts have used them. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:47, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

The only Tailed Beasts so far to have been confirmed who is able to use Elemental Techniques are: The One-Tailed = Wind. The Two-Taield = Fire Breath (Thought it's not certain it's an Elemental Technique) The Four-Tailed = Lava. The Nine-Tailed have no confirmed abilties besides it's regenerative powers and vast Chakra.KenjiNitari (talk) 19:15, December 8, 2011 (UTC)

Don't be confused by anime. Until Nine-Tails shows fire in manga, it has no element stuff. --Elveonora (talk) 22:44, December 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * My words exactually, Anime always add a little "something extra" but it's not canon until it appeares in the Manga. Which is also why i wonder why so many Anime-only things have been put out as if it was canon.KenjiNitari (talk) 08:46, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

Well the problem we seem to face is that, officially, the anime is canon as much as anything else. Don't get me wrong, I am completely against this too, but the compromise we've been following for a long time is that we put the anime-only and manga-only tags beside them, and generally consider manga as a more solid source. --GoDai (talk) 08:54, December 9, 2011 (UTC
 * I know, personally i like alot of what happens in the Anime. Though most things that happen in Anime-only i don't consider canon until it is shown in the Manga, whih is why the Crystal Release in my book, never was official as it did not appear in the manga.KenjiNitari (talk) 10:17, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

Combining elements
Would someone who had mastered basic elements be able to combine them to produce an attack with the same effects as a elemental release kekkei genkai without needing to possess the kekkei genkai? --TricksterKing (talk) 06:23, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

The only example is Roshi I think. --Elveonora (talk) 07:42, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

Unless it comes from Son Gokū power, no. Skitts (talk) 07:48, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

Actually It's a good theory, I myself have been thinking about this. It was said that Son Goku/Roshi's power to miw two elemental chakras were an ability rarely seen outside a Kekkei Genkai, leading me to believe that it is possible for some ppl to use more then one chakra, Kekkei Genkai just makes the ability natural.

We don't discuss theories on the talk page. This question has already been answered. Only Son Gokū and those with the Kekkai Genkai that allows them to use Lava Release can use it, hence it being a KG. Skitts (talk) 20:21, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

Actually I have been wondering if it IS neccesary to possess a Kekkei Genkai in order to combine elements. I think that the Kekkei Genkai only makes the ability natural and easier to do. But even normal Ninja who have more then one elemental Chakra, can (according to my theory) learn to activate them simultaniously through training and effort. That said, I'm still confused just how the "Mixing of Elemental Charkas" works. KenjiNitari (talk) 10:18, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

No. Without the proper Kekkai Genkai (or Son Goku's power), a ninja cannot combine elements (in this case, Fire and Earth). No one else. at all. And at the risk of sounding rude (unintentionally), this isn't the place to be discussing theories, but a place to discuss improving the article. Skitts (talk) 09:33, January 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well it is stated that the ability to use two chakra natures simultaniously is an ability RARELY seen outside a Kekkei Genkai, suggesting that is indeed possible to do without the Kekkei Genkai. KenjiNitari (talk) 10:18, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

Be in mind that this isn't a forum.Umishiru (talk) 10:54, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

No It's a Talk page and we are talking aren't we? KenjiNitari (talk) 12:33, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

Not what talk pages on this wiki are used for. THey're used for what I already said, discussing improvements for the page, not speculating or theorizing, as that just gets out of hand and doesn't help. Skitts (talk) 18:07, January 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * I kinda understand that, but don't we have a site for that stuff then?
 * User's talk pages are fine for that. :-)

Also, be sure to sign your poosts by adding four tildes (4 of these ~) to the end. Skitts (talk) 18:28, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken, the "rarely seen outside of kekkei genkai" line was thrown there to account for the Four-Tails use of an advanced nature. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:57, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

Number of Natures
I know the topic is worded weirdly, but is it possible for a shinobi to have more than three chakra natures? (asside from one who possess the rinnegan, being a jinchuriki, etc.) --Kindle ('ComeAtMeBro ) " 21:26, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

To my knowledge, it was never said that it was impossible to do so, or that it was impossible to learn all of the nature transformations. It may just be that it's very hard. Part of it I imagine is that Kishi tends to like to have his characters specialize in using their unique techniques. For example, we don't see Onoki using anything but Dust Release and some Earth Release, and Kakashi, who is supposed to know over a 1000 techniques has used mainly Lightning Release. Skitts (talk) 21:55, February 2, 2012 (UTC)

Concerned About Advanced Elemental Natures
Quite honestly, this section is a bit of a mess. Why is the Land of Snow Hyōton mentioned in this section? Isn't it enough to be able to read this on the page about Ice Release? A similar argument can be made for the supplemental information about Lava Release and Storm Release. It's better to remove it here.

And it might be a good idea to split the list of 14 into two (or three) lists. One list of advanced natures for which we know the combination (Ice, Wood, Lava, Storm, Boil, Dust). A list for advanced natures we don't know the combination of (Blaze, Explosion, Scorch, Magnet) and a list for advanced natures that don't appear in the manga (Crystal, Dark, Steel, Swift). It would make the section a lot better to read.

There is also the problem that this section assumes that every advanced element has to be a combination of 2 basic elements. There are a total of 10 possibilities when you combine 2 basic elements. But we also have a counter example: Dust Release is a combination of 3 basic elements. There are also 10 possibilities when you combine 3 basic elements.

Now the text doesn't always mention this, but the picture certainly does. Scorch Release, Blaze Release, Magnet Release, Explosion Release and Crystal Release do not necessarily have to be a combination of 2 basic elements. They could easily be a combination of 3.

The Blaze Release actually hints to another possibility. Blaze Release seems to be nothing more than a more general use of Amaterasu. And Amaterasu seems to be nothing more than a Kekkei Genkai Katon. So, if Dust Release uses 3 elements, why can't Blaze Release use just one element: Katon.

Summarizing: --Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 20:42, February 7, 2012 (UTC)
 * Hyōton = function(Fūton, Suiton)
 * Mokuton = function(Doton, Suiton)
 * Jinton = function(Katon, Fūton, Doton)
 * Enton = function(Katon)
 * Enton = function(Katon)
 * Enton = function(Katon)

Explosion Release seems partially similiar to Dust Release too, so it can even be formed off by Earth and Wind, as Magnet Release seems to make more sense as Earth and Lighting. Anyway, just being two element, it doesn't mean that Element+Yin/Yang can't exist, as such, Blaze could be a Fire and Yang Combination, while Magnet can be an Lighting and Yin(classic in some RPGs) combination. --2.38.188.0 (talk) 01:37, February 8, 2012 (UTC)

I don't know how many times this has to be repeated which is why I probably should've just ignored this.
 * The Land of Snow's Hyōton is there because it's Hyōton even though not a kekkei genkai.
 * No it isn't
 * Not too sure what's meant by "supplemental information" or a valid reason why it shouldn't be there.
 * For the most part from what I've seen, this wikia has never segregated canon from non canon unless the information conflicts like in Storm Release.
 * For ease of use and standardising processes all combined nature transformations are assumed to be made of two elements. When evidence is provided to the contrary then the information will be changed.
 * Your assumption(s) about Enton and Jiton (which may be wrong according to the conversation that was had at HQ about kekkei tota). For the rest of your argument(s) refer to the bulletin about standardisation. This wikia is supposed to record information as it's presented nothing more or less.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 02:12, February 8, 2012 (UTC)

To CEREZ365. My primary concern is the big ugly list of 17(!) bullet points. The first thing I noticed where the 3 indented bullet points. In my opinion, these 3 bullet points are unnecessary clutter. If people want to know more about a certain advanced element they can look at the relevant article.
 * About Hyōton: I don't really understand why it is relevant for this article that the Yukigakure are able to bypass the Kekkei Genkai requirements. Hyōton is Hyōton, is it not? Leave all the details for the Ice Release article I would say.
 * About Yōton: Is it relevant for this article that Lava Release can be written in two different ways? I'd suggest to leave such details to the Lave Release article.
 * About Ranton: Again, details are mentioned that would be better left for the article Storm Release.

My suggestion for splitting the list was NOT to segregate canon from non-canon (although I understand why you came to that conclusion; some people are anal about that). My suggestion was to split it into two parts. The first list would be about the elemental Kekkei Genkai which we know quite a bit about (and would be 6 bullet points). The second list would mention the elemental Kekkei Genkai which we don't know a lot about (and would be 8 bullet points). (Note: I merely noticed while writing that the second list could be further split between manga and non-manga, but that isn't really necessary.) In that way we get a list that actually contains information, and we get a list that barely contains more information other than the name of the Kekkei Genkai nature.

Also, please list the advanced natures in alphabetic order.

As to your point that: "For ease of use and standardising processes all combined nature transformations are assumed to be made of two elements. When evidence is provided to the contrary then the information will be changed." I don't really have a problem with that rule. I do have a problem with the speculation on which 2 elements are probably involved (especially when the possibility exist that 3 elements are involved). You also stated: "This wikia is supposed to record information as it's presented nothing more or less." And yet it includes blatant speculation in its picture, which is easier than reading the ugly list.
 * Crystal Release: "is possibly created by simultaneously combining the Earth nature and another unspecified nature." Why not state the obvious that we don't know what this nature entails.
 * "The Blaze (炎, Honō) nature [...] It is unknown what this nature entails." But this is contradicted by the picture that shows it as a combination of Fire and Lightning. Furthermore, in the case of Amaterasu and Enton the possibility exist that this is actually a Kekkei Genkai version of just one element (Katon). We don't know for sure, off course, but it is a strong possibility. And yes, I've seen the question mark, which only makes it more annoying.
 * "The Explosion (爆発, Bakuhatsu) nature [...] It is unknown what this nature entails." Except that the picture shows it as a combination of earth and lightning. I could understand the earth part as Sasuke uses that in his fight against Deidara (although that could be a reference to his use of clay). But the lightning element makes less sense than wind (as an explosion is a shock wave). Basically, there is nothing that suggests it is those two.
 * "The Scorching Heat (灼熱, Shakunetsu) nature [...] It is unknown what this nature entails." Again contradicted with the picture. I understand that the question mark is there to convey the uncertainty, but it is far better to remove those pieces of speculation.
 * "The Magnetism (磁力, Jiryoku) nature [...] It is unknown what this nature entails." And yet again, the picture shows it as lightning and wind. While I can understand the lightning part (electro-magnetism), the wind part is less likely than earth (in my opinion at least). So why show this speculation in a picture. Despite the question mark, the picture suggests a combination of elements for which there is no support.

So that's my criticism. It's ugly and it contains speculation. I think it can be better. I just didn't want to change things without discussing it. --Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 14:58, February 8, 2012 (UTC)

In reply to your statement, the ugly points were necessary.
 * The part about Ice Release (Hyōton) is necessary so that people watching the movie don't get confused by the weird use of Ice Release. Kakashi could copy this 'Ice Release' with his Sharingan, hinting that they weren't using a kekkei genkai or hiden technique. This majorly contradicts the manga and canonical resources who say it isn't possible without a kekkei genkai. It's listed here because its too big a stupidity by the movie makers to be simply stated on the Ice Release page.
 * About the Lava Release text, its important because Masashi seems to use them purposely not coincidentally, this change could hint something bigger, that's why its here.
 * The Storm Release note is there because of the same reason as Ice Release. Darui was firing lasers beams while Hiruko was plainly manipulating storm clouds and electricity and its a case when a movie-only nature gets adapted into the manga. Darui used a symbolic type of Storm Release while Hiruko used a literal type of Storm Release.

About your splitting list idea, isn't "It is unknown what this nature entails" enough for that purpose? If anyone wants more information, they can check the article of that particular element/nature.


 * Crystal Release: Kiba or Kakashi seemed to recognize it as Earth Release or at least Earth Release-related. Though I gotta agree the possibly part is speculation.


 * Blaze (炎, Honō) nature: You're absolutely right about the picture thing. What you say about the Katon kekkei genkai could be possible but its still just a possibility.


 * Explosion (爆発, Bakuhatsu) nature: Again, you're right about the picture. I personally think Explosion Release is made of the Fire and Lightning natures. As an explosion is basically an outburst of energy. Lightning is unpredictable and occurs in a moment much like an explosion and Fire...well it just makes sense. Besides both are a form of energy much like an explosion.


 * Scorching Heat (灼熱, Shakunetsu) nature: Right about the picture. You're right about removing those "pieces of speculation. "


 * Magnetism (磁力, Jiryoku) nature: *sighs* Do I even need to mention that you're right about the picture? I agree with your opinion.

Whats so ugly about the list? The only problem I can even think of is that they're a little too close to each other. 119.154.23.102 (talk) 16:58, February 8, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. Now I understand your point better too. On why the list is ugly? Look at the other 2 lists in this article: I've always been taught that a list is nothing more than a particular form of organising information. They question is: What information are we organising in the advanced elemental nature section? If we can get to the heart of that matter, we are far better to judge whether a list is actually appropriate.
 * 1) They're short.
 * 2) Each bullet point item has a similar format.

That actually comes back to my earlier arguments:
 * In reply to your statement, the ugly points were necessary. My point was basically that if it is supposed to be a list, then it's not necessary. If they are necessary, then those bullet points need to be converted to proper paragraphs.
 * About splitting the list: if you want to give each item on the list a consistent format, then the format becomes depended on the Release we know the least about. Splitting the list gives us the opportunity to have 2 formats: one for advanced natures we know a lot about; and one for advanced natures we know little about.
 * About your splitting list idea, isn't "It is unknown what this nature entails" enough for that purpose? But this would create a list that would repeat that sentence far too often. It is quite common to create a list for the purpose of preventing that repetition. Think about it in this way. You have the sentence The Naruto World also contains advanced natures of which the exact nature is unknown: followed by said list.

Basically, the problem with the current section is that: The basic idea for a list is to present information such that it is easier to find (or memorise or...) the information you want. Sadly, the page is protected from editing. Otherwise I could show it, rather than describe it. --Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 19:48, February 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * 1) Some bullet points as they are now are better off converted to proper paragraphs.
 * 2) Some bullet points as they are now get lost (sort off) because they contain little information compared to the more information rich bullet points.
 * 3) Even unordered list have to be ordered when they get too long. Alphabetical order is probably best.

crystal relase must be wind and earth for a simple reason ice is water and wind the water was crystalled by the wind and become ice so the crystal is earth that was crystallized by the wind --Nitram86 (talk) 16:41, February 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * The problem with your theory (besides the fact that it's been suggested before), is that Crystal Release is an Anime-only Jutsu, and so, should be considered not existing until it appears in the Manga.KenjiNitari (talk) 16:57, February 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * No matter how tempting it is, we're not going to speculate the elements that makes up each advanced natures; that would be just that, speculation, the readers and the viewers can do that by themselves as they read the articles. As far as I'm concerned, the order and appearance of the list is fine. Separating the advanced natures would cause confusion to the readers since some of them would belong to both categories of the second section proposed above. Further spacing between the bullets could be done though.YonbiAzai (talk) 17:20, February 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * YonbiAzai, you wrote: No matter how tempting it is, we're not going to speculate the elements that makes up each advanced natures; that would be just that, speculation, the readers and the viewers can do that by themselves as they read the articles. Which is why I find that damn picture so annoying.
 * YonbiAzai, you wrote: Separating the advanced natures would cause confusion to the readers since some of them would belong to both categories of the second section proposed above. I'm not sure to whom you're replying, but in case it was me, this was what I wrote:
 * "My suggestion for splitting the list was NOT to segregate canon from non-canon (although I understand why you came to that conclusion; some people are anal about that). My suggestion was to split it into two parts. The first list would be about the elemental Kekkei Genkai which we know quite a bit about (and would be 6 bullet points). The second list would mention the elemental Kekkei Genkai which we don't know a lot about (and would be 8 bullet points). (Note: I merely noticed while writing that the second list could be further split between manga and non-manga, but that isn't really necessary.) In that way we get a list that actually contains information, and we get a list that barely contains more information other than the name of the Kekkei Genkai nature. Also, please list the advanced natures in alphabetic order."
 * I'm not sure what is confusing about it (if it was aimed at my proposal). My main purpose is to get rid off the list of 17 items and replace it with something better. The information rich bullet points could be converted into proper paragraphs, while the information anemic bullet points can be gathered and turned into a proper list.--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 19:28, February 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * I understand your concerns, those pictures do need work I agree that much, but there is no need to reorganize the advanced natures section. You could erase the bullets underneath some of the natures(ice, lava, and storm) this would remove unnecessary information on the page that could otherwise, be found in the nature's specific article. Other than that, reorganizing the articles would just be a waste of time. The main information provided by the Nature Transformation article is to enlighten readers on how chakra can be transformed into an element of nature and how these elements can be further combinend into advanced elements. What the elemement composed of and wether or not it is cannon or non-cannon can be dealt with in the element's own article. That being said, the information concerning advanced elements is not suppose to be specific since you could just visit their article with a push of a button.YonbiAzai (talk) 02:52, February 21, 2012 (UTC)

Movie, Anime and Manga?
--Please don't be rude, I'm only asking nicely--

I was wondering why we take filler episodes from the anime, and movie content as cannon. Most of the times they make sure that a lot of things contradict each other, so it doesn't really seem logical that we take it as official. I think only the manga and databooks should be taken as official. If not, then why do we take it as cannon? (look at Hyooton and Storm release, for example)

Thanks xd 213.119.107.164 (talk) 16:52, February 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * We don't take them as cannon. Skitts (talk) 16:59, February 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * We list them because they're still part of the franchise. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:01, February 24, 2012 (UTC)

Trivia
I added a trivia about the ones with the most known nature transformations. If you find this unnecesarry, or boring trivia, feel free to remove it! ;) Antonino200 (talk) 16:49, March 10, 2012 (UTC)

Second Mizukage's Statement
I added a few lines of info about the second mizukage's statement about yin release/genjutsu. I believe that's pretty important and it wasn't mentioned here, however if it's not good you guys feel free to edit or remove.--Jon Thiago (talk) 02:22, April 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yamato's statement already covers it. We're not adding much to that yet because it's unclear which are the boundaries. Are all genjutsu Yin Release? Is Yin Release just genjutsu? Are there non-Yin Release genjutsu? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:27, April 8, 2012 (UTC)