User talk:GoDai/Ideas and Theories

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Proof: Amaterasu is Fire Release (Databook)
I'll probably put more feedback later, but from the top of my head, I can give you a reference to something you used. Amaterasu is databook-confirmed Fire Release. See ShounenSuki's translation of Itachi's Transcription Seal: Amaterasu. One of the first sentences is that Amaterasu is the most powerful Fire Release technique. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:54, September 1, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, thanks. Finally, some solid confirmation. --GoDai (talk) 02:00, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

answers
Man, I have read "whole" page of yours and I must add we really think alike. What I meant as an enhancer is when the chakra is given properties of an element, when medium the chakra is changed into an element. So we both agree upon this except you say in KKG both are enhancer and medium but I say only 1 is enhancer and 1 medium : P You really have a brain. --Elveonora (talk) 08:00, November 16, 2011 (UTC)


 * Oil: I don' think its an element. Jiraiya when in Sage Mode is basically partially a frog/toad and they were shown to be related to oil. I think it's similar to Curse Seal/Mark or Tailed Beast Transformation since Killer B was shown spitting an ink due to his tailed beast being an octopus ... so spitting ink is related to Jiraiya's not perfect control over natural energy thus turning into a Toad.


 * To Shizune, it's possible she is like Hanzo. Maybe she has something similar as salamander's venom sac implanted.


 * Chakra Disruption Blades and Chakra Receiver's are basically due to Gedo Mazo ... it pinned Nagato with it and since then his body is able to create them. Since Pain's got them too, it's the same.

Chibaku Tensei is I think Magnet Release + Yin Release.
 * Deva Path's gravitation powers are basically Magnet Release on a bigger scale.

The only difference is that Asura is half humanoid/half machine. So I say Nagato uses alike powers in both Deva and Asura.
 * Asura's and Deva's powers are very similar since they use both use Magnetism.


 * Kimimaro's power are a mutation, no chakra transformed.


 * I think Kidomaru used Earth Release to change the strength and composition of his sweat. His sweat is kinda special ... something to do with him being like a spider :P Mutation/KKG or Oro's experiments.


 * Sand thing, yeah I agree Wind+Earth= Sand


 * Two Tail's body of blue flames is just it's form, nothing special.


 * For Steam it's Fire+Water


 * Bubble Release or something is Wind+Water


 * Konan uses a real paper infused with chakra, and her Dance of the Shikigami is basically a Combination Transformation with herself and her paper of chakra.


 * Sai uses Yang Release to bring his Ink painting to life.


 * Most characters used tools/body alternations to create the sound (Dosu,Zaku,Tayuya's flute is kinda magical) in case of Kin&Shima&Fukasaku, just a genjutsu ... so no Sound Release sorry :P


 * Dark Release is not canon

Both Yamato and Hashirama possess Wood Release, though Yamato's control over Kyubi is inferior compared to Hashirama so it's not a Wood thing but rather Hashirama chakra's unique trait.
 * I agree that power to control the Beasts is not due to Wood Release. It's a unique ability to Hashirama's chakra. Tobi controlled the Kyubi with just a normal sharingan and not used any wood pillars to do so, suggesting that Hashirama's chakra enhanced Tobi's normal Sharingan's genjutsu.


 * About Lava written differently, I think it's because in one case it's Fire+Earth (melted earth/magma) and in other Earth+Fire (fire with changed composition to be more sparse-tenuous/Lava)

* Fire+Wind = Scorch (making wind release hot, evaporating water at a molecular level) * Wind+Fire = Laser (Sharp and Thin beams of fire) * Fire+Lighting = Flash (Lighting moving at speed of light) * Lighting+Fire = Heat (Highly vibrating waves of fire causing heat in weather) * Fire+Earth = Magma (Heated earth) * Earth+Fire = Lava (Fire with changed composition) * Fire+Water = Steam (Evaporating water) * Water+Fire = Boil/Acid (creating an acidic hot mist) * Wind+Lighting = Energy * Lighting+Wind = Explosion (Highly vibrating electrons [sparks] getting in contact with oxigen in a high air pressure causing an explosion) * Wind+Earth = Sand (wind cutting and shaping earth minerals into sand) * Earth+Wind = Crystal (Creating Crystals in the air from various compositions by increasing their density) * Wind+Water = Bubble (cutting and shaping water to create bubbles) * Water+Wind = Ice (making wind solid) * Lighting+Earth = Quake (vibrating thus shaking ground) * Earth+Lighting= Magnetism (increasing the potency of electrones) * Lighting+Water = Shock (rotating water under voltage) * Water+Lighting = Plasma/Storm Release (changing state and shape of electricity into beams of lighting) * Water+Earth = Mud (changing state of earth into liquid) * Earth+Water = Corrosion (increasing density and potency of water thus making the corrosion instant)
 * Again my pattern, let me know which you think may be right:


 * Blaze pretty much as I said is Fire/Amaterasu+Yin


 * Can you comment on my Yin/Yang stuff ?

--Elveonora (talk) 09:17, November 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * I think Kishi uses science.


 * Well glad you liked the page, although a lot of the ideas are really old and outdated right now, I don't always find the time to clean this place up.


 * For the section about "possible natures" I don't necessarily think they're natures, but I only listed them so I could use them for ideas later on. For example, obviously sound is not a nature in the cases we've seen so far. So what I would say for that section is, don't really think I'm trying to prove anything, I'm just listing out possibilities, mostly as notes for myself. Deidara's explosive chakra was in that section until it became a nature, so we never know, and that section acts as more like a reminder for myself.
 * For the Tailed Beast-related nature-like things, I'm being patient until Tobi and his Paths break out some techs.
 * I like to keep things in possibility as long as they're there. Movie natures such as Dark are only non-canon just because they're not in the manga yet; Kishi can always just take it and put it in if he wants. Remember, the characters identical to the ones from the movie were revived by Kabuto. Storm Release was actually premiered first in the movie, but Kishi took it and made his own version. Because something is non-canon right now certainly does not mean Kishi can just decide to put it in; they don't restrict him in any way.
 * I like your idea for Sai's techniques. I think it makes sense.
 * The Lava being written differently is the only thing that raises some doubt that there are only 10 combined elements. At the same time, becuase in Japanese they are hardly ever different, I've come to accept they are only different due to their village origins, or something like that. I really don't completely oppose the idea that there are 20 combinations, but at this moment in time, for me personally, there seems to be more pointing at 10 than the amount of hints pointing at 20. I don't oppose it, I might even change it if the manga points out even more hints.
 * The definition of Nature Transformation is any changes in the way chakra behaves, changes in its properties (I would actually like it better if it was called Property Transformation). Therefore, if someone's chakra acts in some way that normal chakra shouldn't, I think of it as a possiblity of nature transformation. Also, another way nature transformation seems to interpreted in the manga is "turning chakra into other elements" by giving normal chakra the same properties (color, mass, volume, phase, temperature, etc.) that the chosen element has. This one is a biggie, as it explains how changing the nature of your chakra allows you to breathe fire and spit water and earth, among other things. All that fire, earth, water, or whatever, is actually still made of chakra, just behaving differently. Remember when the Preta Path absorbed Sage Art: Goemon, and not only did it absorb chakra, it absorbed all of the oil, which shows that the oil was purely made out of chakra. This is the main reason Jiraiya's Toad Oil Bullet's databook entry describing it as "Jiraiya converts his chakra into oil" is important. Recently, the Second Mizukage was seen being able to manipulate an oily water (Simply referred to as oil in the chapter after probably for conciseness). I theorize that he did this by removing some properties (natures) of water from the water and adding some properties of oil. It's also possible that it was Yin Release being applied to Water Release. This could help describe how Jiraiya was turning his chakra into oil also, as the only way to turn chakra into another material is to give it the same set of properties possessed by that substance. In this case, the sticky and slippery feel, viscosity, flammability, color, etc. are all being applied to normal chakra, in order to convert it into oil. This also applies to Shizune's breathing of poisonous gas; if you see the databook entry, it clearly explains how she does it; she kneads her chakra into chemicals inside her body. This is also her giving her chakra poisonous, gaseous properties. While there are 5 major types of basic nature transformation, I find it possible that this is more of a spectrum of colors and that there are infinite varities of the "properties" one can give to their chakra. --GoDai (talk) 06:59, November 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * If I haven't answered some things, I'll try to answer them later, I do find myself quite busy at times. Maybe one topic at a time on this page in different sections would be more comfortable to see rather than my huge walls of text.

Ok, you can always check later :P Feel free to notice me about your theories/speculations. I thought the oil is due to sage mode, but now you are right ... he did that in his normal form. So then I guess its Water+Yin, and it even may be a hint since Mizukage has mentioned Yin Release : P --Elveonora (talk) 07:52, November 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah that's pretty much what I meant. The whole reason I mentioned Yin Release being a part of it is because the Mizukage mentioned he's a user of Yin Release, but didn't even mention Water Release when he began. This may mean his Yin techniques and abilities are more significant, which in turn made me think the oily water, which is a big part of his abilities, was related. --GoDai (talk) 10:45, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

Can you please reply on my yin yang stuff i posted to omni's page ? should be in swift release section, thanks. --Elveonora (talk) 12:00, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

Wow ... even your KKG theory is similar to what I'm about to post soon 0_o --Elveonora (talk) 11:49, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

Oh sorry I was away for the weekend at some conference. Would you mind posting the Yin-Yang ideas here as a separate topic? --GoDai (talk) 00:13, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

Yin and Yang
I see. Can you please once again explain me your "formula" how you think the advanced natures are selected ? Yes, Yin and Yang are not nature transformations since it's not elemental ... Thats why I guess it was removed from the Rinnegan. Yin and Yang are transformations of chakra but not into nature. My guess is that yin and yang are being used from the start without even us really noticing. Iruka said something at Chunin exams, and few more times it was mentioned but I dont remember the examples now. I think every not elemental technique uses yin and yang. For example:

Shadow Clones its 3 Yin : 7 Yang Clone Technique 7 Yin : 3 Yang Genjutsu 10 Yin : 0 Yang Medical Ninjutsu 0 Yin : 10 Yang

What Im trying to say is that every technique uses a different ammount of Yin compared to Yang. When Its "only" Yin, its a Yin Release Technique (Genjutsu). When its "only" Yang, its a Yang Release Technique (Medical Ninjutsu). When its 5:5 Yin and Yang, its a Yin-Yang Release (Izanagi and stuff).

Wood Release is still Water+Wood thus 2 elements but only Yang chakra is being used thus I see it something like:

Yang+Water (Chakra able to change shape and state that gives life) enhancing earth as a medium, thus its earth given "life" (Wood).

But in case of Yamato I think he uses Yin instead most of time ... its because:

Except one technique, its wooden pillars instead of trees. Kabuto used him to strenghten Zetsu, and if he is the same as Hashirama then there would be no point because he is just a weaker "clone" Those with Hashirama's cells are said to physically boosted (given Yang energy) Yamato' wooden pillars changed into a trees with Kyubi's yang chakra, thats another reason I think when its pillars its Yin, when trees its Yang. --Elveonora (talk) 10:58, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

Hm well you gotta remember, the word "nature" in "Nature Transformation" doesn't mean "nature and environment". It's the second definition here:, meaning "the innate characteristics of a thing". Yin and Yang are still natures of chakra, since the physical nature and spiritual natures are the very things that chakra is made of. For me it's not really a matter of whether it's elemental or not since they actually never use the word "elemental" in the original Japanese manga, we just commonly refer to the 5 chakra natures as "elemental chakra" because that's a somewhat accurate description for what they do. In fact, all the manga talks about is the different natures (meaning quality or characteristics or behavior) of chakra.

Your point about the wooden poles vs. actual living trees is a matter I brought up myself some while ago, although I decided that we haven't seen enough of Hashirama's techniques to decide that there was this difference with wood/trees. However, I do also have this idea that Yin and Yang in combinations may not need kekkei genkai, or some other exception like that. There is a a possibility of the "oily, slimy liquid" used by the Mizukage is something like Water+Yin, and Sasuke also used Blaze Release, which is also possible in not being a kekkei genkai. Application of Yin and Yang may not necessarily be Yin and Yang, as you say. However, I do find that Yin-Yang Release is definitely the sixth nature, since it was always referred to as such. Because of the importance Madara shows in being able to use Yin-Yang Release, this nature could be the actual kekkei genkai we're talking about, if that makes any sense. --GoDai (talk) 00:58, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

I know, I meant it's not an element. And yes, yin+yang is like wood+water I mean kkg is most likely required to be able to combine them. --Elveonora (talk) 02:34, November 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * Hm yeah. I find it possible that incorporating Yin and Yang into any technique isn't anything unique, although I don't necessarily believe in this. Jiraiya converted his chakra into oil, which isn't one of the five basic natures. At the same time, as I say on my page, it can't be a kekkei genkai or anything unique because it's a ranked technique. It might either be just non-elemental, or incorporating Yin into Water or something like that. Because the Second Mizukage also recently used oil, and as I said earlier, when the Raikage and Mizukage were telling the shinobi about their abilities, Raikage said he uses Lightning Release and the Mizukage said he uses Yin Release, although soon we see him using Water Release as well. This makes me think the Yin is more important than Water as a key component in the type of techniques he uses the most: his oily water. --GoDai (talk) 23:51, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

And do you think I may be right with the stuff above that every non-elemental technique (elemental can as well) uses a different ammount of yin and yang and that only yin = yin release, only yang = yang release and balanced is yin-yang release ? And do you have some new theories except those already posted ? Can you check my talkpage as well and read: and if ya got nerves and guts even the replies part as well ? some stuff there is outdated or no longer relevant since it was proven wrong but some parts may interest you like workings of transformation technique and i would like your comments on that, thanks.
 * http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Elveonora#Naruto.27s_and_Killer_B.27s_Jinchuriki_Forms
 * http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Elveonora#Mikoto_betrayed_Kushina
 * http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Elveonora#Tobi_being_Izuna
 * http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Elveonora#Appearance_of_So6p

Hmm well for your plot-related theories, I really don't have a strong opinion on those, although I did notice the possibility of Tobi actually being Izuna, with those proportions and stuff. However, there's still that chance of him being Obito, Kagami, another Madara, etc. Also, could you tell me where you got the Yin-Yang propertion things for medical ninjutsu and genjutsu and such? --GoDai (talk) 03:33, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

What d0 y0u mean from where I got that ? Same as your theories, observation and and not afraid to use brain. Also Tobi being Obito is like saying Naruto and Gaara are brothers. You, know ... Uzumaki red hair, same age, heigt and weight ... Tobi being Izuna or Kagami is most likely ... but I'm much closer to Izuna. --Elveonora (talk) 04:20, December 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh sorry I thought you said that you got those Yin-Yang ratio things from the manga, I didn't know if it was just your idea. Also, I really don't have a strong opinion on anything for the plot. I didn't say Tobi being Izuna is wrong, I didn't say Tobi being Obito is right. I just said it's always a possibility. And you know, it's really not the exact same because Gaara is not some masked guy that we don't know where he came from. We all know about Gaara's birth to every last detail now. Unless Kishimoto does something crazy and says something like they implanted Uzumaki DNA inside him or something, there is no uncertainty. Compared to that Tobi is simply unknown. Maybe even Kishimoto doesn't know who he is yet. Although you brought up many good points for your Izuna theory, there are plenty of excellent theories for other possibilities too. Don't get me wrong, I seriously don't think he is Obito. But I like to stay open-minded, even if it means I don't have a very strong opinion. I gotta admit there are a lot of good proofs for several sides of the argument. --GoDai (talk) 01:41, December 15, 2011 (UTC)

If Tobi is not Izuna, I will cut off my head and send it to you ... Just more than my bet, I think what I posted are enough connections. Also what do you think about him using chakra chains in latest chap ? Was not that Kushina thingy ? --Elveonora (talk) 02:26, December 15, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah I thought that the moment I saw that too. It seems Tobi not only has the First's cells, the Sharingan, and the Rinnegan, but also Kushina's "special chakra" that was mentioned several chapters ago... I'm wondering if it's an ability that many Uzumaki had. It seems it's not just the two (Wood Release and Sharingan) that help control Tailed Beasts, but also these chains. They may be part of the "completion" Tobi wants to achieve, full control of the Tailed Beasts. --GoDai (talk) 04:49, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe he cut off and took Kushina's arm for the one Minato damaged :P --Elveonora (talk) 16:55, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Theories of Kekkei Genkai and Advanced Natures?
Wow. Your theories intrigue me. I have my own thoughts and (stupid) theories related to the variety of Advanced Natures and Kekkei Genkai.

The first is that two Kekkei Genkai could possibly share the same elements, but differ in which element is a major part and which is a minor. For instance, with Ice Release, one would naturally assume that Water is the major element as ice is frozen water, and with Wood Release, Earth is the major element as it's impossible for trees to grow without soil of some sort. Perhaps Advanced Natures whose elements we don't know yet utilize the same as previously shown ones...just with a difference of what enhances what and which element is more majorly needed. Explosion Release may utilize Earth and Fire like Lava Release, but utilizes the Earth element more than Fire.

The second is that the differences in the mutant/special genes of a Kekkei Genkai user could change the resulting Advanced Nature created, even if they share the same base elements as another Kekkei Genkai. --66.248.166.73 (talk) 05:02, December 5, 2011 (UTC)BlueRoses


 * Well the major and minor component thing sounds extremely similar to what I'm saying in the page. While the second part of that is pretty interesting, I personally don't find it very likely at the moment, since we've only seen one possibility for each major element. But I'm always open-minded, since Kishi could always switch around which element enhances which, if he actually runs out of nature ideas. --GoDai (talk) 03:35, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

Soap Bubble Ninjutsu
You are right O_O Any more theories ? :D --Elveonora (talk) 00:44, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Hello Godai, I was wondering if we could bring up your soap bubble-alkaline theory in Utakata's talkpage as a way for him to be connected to the Six-Tails. Joshbl56 01:10, December 16, 2011 (UTC)


 * Hmmm. It was just a random thought I had. We still don't have confirmation to make that a fact, although I do plan to post it on this page right now. I think each of the beasts have some sort of substance, although I have no idea if they're all elements, or just element-like abilities.
 * One - Sand, Two - Fire (Blue fire? All its attacks use red fire), Three - Coral (It seems Water Mirror is just Yagura's jutsu), Four - Lava (This one is the only one definitely an element), Five - Steam (Unconfirmed), Six - Alkali, Seven - Insect Scales (not sure if this is the element, could be something else), Eight - Ink, Nine - ???. I'm hoping Naruto will get some epic ninjutsu ability rather than just the Yang chakra and Evil-sensing thing.

I would love to post the idea, but I don't like posting ideas until they're definitely true. I'm just glad that Bubbles weren't the main ability of the Slug, it would've been pretty flat and boring for me. I always had thought the Six-Tails was providing something that Utakata could mix water, which many ninja can make, with it to blow bubbles. I should've guessed earlier that it would be the alkaline substance that was forming the soap. --GoDai (talk) 04:45, December 16, 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the reply. I know that it's still a theory but we have theories on the trivia for tailed beast skill which mentions Utakata's bubble ninjutsu as something that might be connected to the Six-Tails. This might help out a little with that section (I know I jumped sections but I was reading the trivia their and thought it would probably be better put).
 * Also, for the seven-tails, I think it's main 'element' is Beetle/Bugs as it has used both insect scales and bug bites. We will just have to wait and see what happens when/if Fu changes into the Seven-Tails. Joshbl56  05:01, December 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmm while I'm considering it, I'll just see how well accepted by some users it is for now. And as for the Seven-Tails, I know that's its theme, but I'm expecting something more amazing :P. And yeah, I'm not sure how all of these will relate to the natures we have now, besides Lava. They might just end up like Spider Sticky Gold, Shikotsumyaku, Sai's jutsu, and all those other things that control substances with chakra. --GoDai (talk) 05:19, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Another cool possibility is if the acidic effects of Boil Release was used to subdue the Six-Tails by neutralizing its alkali when it went rampant, like how Gold Sand was used on Shukaku. But eh, who knows. --GoDai (talk) 03:16, December 23, 2011 (UTC)

wood release,tobi/izuna and so6p,ten-tails/gedo mazo
Hello, do you think Hashirama is really the origin ? There was some convo on this in so6p talkpage. I believe it originates from Ten-Tails, making so6p an user as well. Also what do you think Sage looked like, have you ever imagined him? Also do you think he get the Rinnegan after or before he became a host ? Had he sharingan as well ?

Also to that what I have posted on my talkpage, I have some more proofs Tobi is Izuna. Tobi's and Izuna's and also Madara's eyebrows, eyes, ears and base of hair are the same.

And what do you think about Gedo Mazo being Ten-Tails, have you read/heard something on this ? I support that ... also, Thanks. --Elveonora (talk) 02:45, January 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well on Wood Release, I am quite certain there's something else going on. But in that case, I would also question the reason why the Sage of the Six Paths would have Wood Release. It makes sense, since how Madara, Tobi, and Danzō all gained the First's cells to become like the So6P, and in turn also gained the element Wood. The Ten-Tails and the So6P relationship is really a vague matter for me to make any assumptions, but I do see the strong possibility that it will have the eye. I have this idea that Tailed Beast Abilities will mix with the host's chakra and be passed on, seeing how sand manipulation remained within Gaara, and how people other than the Four-Tails have Lava Release (The original host of the Four-Tails may have lived in a very early period, and therefore his ancestors are in numerous villages?). This could mean the Rinnegan actually came from the beast, but that would mean the Sage was truly that powerful. I've also seen many theories of the statue begin the Ten-Tails. I personally think the statue could contain the new body of the beast, since the old one is sealed within the moon, and the chakra of the Tailed Beasts combined within it will somehow break it open and release the Ten-Tails (just my imagination.). And for the Tobi is Izuna theory, like I said earlier it's probably the most viable theory, but I wouldn't be too surprised if he wasn't Izuna either. I hope these answers make you content ^^. --GoDai (talk) 01:34, January 4, 2012 (UTC)

You can call me crazy but ... So6p's blood/power was separated into 2 = younger/elder son thus their successors being uchiha/senju/uzumaki and possibly hyuga as well but thats just assumption. But due to the link of Sharingan being related to Byakugan, I can see it. Also Kin&Gin are said to be related to So6p, meaning blood of the 2 sons was divided into more than just 3-4 clans since I don't see Kin&Gin being Senju or Uzumaki (Hyuga or Uchiha are out of question) but its possible for them to be ... it's like 50/50 for me now ... but as they are from Kumogakure, its not very likely so a different So6p related clan is more possible.

Evil guys are after Hashirama's power. Sharingan/Uchiha blood + "Hashirama's power" make up together power of the So6p. If not, that would mean any random Senju would provide everything needed for an Uchiha to become "So6p" like I gave the example of using Tobirama's flesh instead. When you separate something (100%) into two halves(50/50) it makes sense that combining the two will make up the original/full thing again, because if Hashirama is the original source that would mean its a new mutation so by logic I don't see how Hashirama's power would make up with Sharingan/Uchiha blood the power of So6p. Basically meaning So6p by common sense had Wood Release as well, and seeing how he was Hashirama's ancestry, I think it's possible for it to appear generations later. Also another thing I have noticed is that Gedo Mazo is made from Wood, but that might be cause it's sucking chakra or something from Hashirama Clone Flower.

There are quite a few possibilities related to So6p and Ten-Tails: And it would make more sense for "sharingan/uchiha blood+hashirama's power=So6p" also notice that Hashirama's power is of course Wood Release and it's power to control the Tailed Beasts ... Unless Wood Release and controlling the beasts are 2 separate powers that Hashirama has possessed. So Sharingan being not related to Sage is weird cause then combining the 2 would not result in Sage's power but only in a half ... and for theory, making both Sharingan and Wood Release originate from Ten-Tails = obtaining the power of Ten-Tails, not Sage. Unless they do attribute Sage's power to being a host of Ten-Tails, nothing less nothing more.
 * #1 Sage had Rinnegan before, it's original eye being the "Sharingan" (but this does not explain the Rinnegan pattern over it's eye, the theory being Sage had it under genjutsu. But since there are not any genjutsu powers attributed to Rinngegan, I see this highly unlikely ... also even if so and So6p's Rinnegan had some genjutsu powers, I don't see him being "that" strong to bind Ten-Tails with genjutsu since Sharingan is highly associated with it making the beast resilient.
 * #2 Sage's original KKG is Sharingan ... shocked ? Well, would make more sense to bind Ten-Tails in genjutsu, making the Rinnegan the Ten-Tail's eye.
 * #3 Sage had both Sharingan and Rinnegan or a combination of both, and possibly Wood Release/Control Beasts power as well (this would make him TRULY GODLY imo) but I don't see it since, then he is lame in my eyes using the strongest godly/heavenly/hax tools against a poor tiny "Beast"
 * #4 Sage had none, and all 3 do originate from Ten-Tails ... possibly !
 * #5 Sage's original KKG being Byakugan (Im serious) ... really, where does the Byakugan fit ? ? ?

Also comments made on Sage's talkpage in topic i started:
 * Are we really sure that Sage had the Rinnegan before becoming a host ? I think it's a speculation.--Elveonora
 * The problem with that statement is that we've only seen him with the Rinnegan. Joshbl56
 * I don't understand how the two incidents are related? The eldest son wouldn't have inherited a dōjutsu if that were the case, tailed beast skills aren't hereditary.--Cerez365™
 * Are you sure ? Naruto and Gaara are affected by their Tailed Beasts and tell this to Uchiha. Ten-Tails has eye that looks like Sharingan, if having a tailed beast is not hereditary, then there would be no Sharingan in Uchiha. Unless Sage had Sharingan as well. --Elveonora

So people do oppose Sage having a Sharingan. This automatically do mean that it came from Ten-Tails and that Tailed Beast traits are hereditary. But there's this issue with final level of Sharingan being a Rinnegan ... so let's say Sage really had a combination of both ... so Ten-Tail had no special eye then ? ? ? : (

But theres this thing with Madara being able to switch between the two. This is not confirmed, but lets say Hashirama's power is responsible for EMS turning into Rinnegan. This does however mean that Uchiha are not capable of awakening it by "natural" means, only by taking the DNA of their brother clan ... this mean that Sage was capable of switching between the two, because Madara's eyes have not turned into Rinnegan he still can use both. You can make milk into a cream, but you can't drink it like a milk then. Neither you can turn cream back into a milk ... meaning Sharingan is not a devolution/degradation of Rinnegan, neither Rinnegan being the evolution/higher level. But even if it is, it again just PROVE one of the options from my theories cause if its so, and Sage had Rinnegan ... he had to awake it from Sharingan. So again I dont see this option, but whatever option Im still right in the context of logic based off what we know ; ) But Im not gonna be surprised if im wrong in the context of whats unknown to us.

The things that makes the most sense oppose themselves ... so what do you think ?

Also let's say that Gedo Mazo is Ten-Tails, or some sort of artificial body for it. Notice it has 10 broken branches/outgrowths on it's back. Not to say 9 eyes. Let's saying sealing the 9 beasts would result in turning of the 9 eyes into 1 and growing 10 "tails" from the broken parts. That would be a masterful move by Kishi for us to wonder what the Ten-Tails looked like basically showing it us all the time :D Also sealing the beasts into it to turn it into its original state/form.

Also note: lets say for example Wood Release came from Ten-Tails ... makes sense for power to control the tailed beasts coming from the original "Beast"

And if Tobi is not Izuna, I will cut off my head and send it to you. The 2 most possible candidates are Izuna and Kagami ... but its like 70/30 in turn for Izuna compared to Kagami.

--Elveonora (talk) 06:50, January 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * Wow that was a lot to read and answer. Could you please keep them short, so I can also answer short? When your questions are long my answers are usually longer ^^.

But really, one topic at a time please, if you post so many questions, answers become longer and longer ><.... And just in case Tobi isn't Izuna, please don't send me your head ^^. Also, I probably didn't answer everything clearly, ask if there are ones not answered (one at a time). --GoDai (talk) 05:49, January 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Well first of all, I would like to say don't overlook recessive genes and traits "appearing generations later" as you said. Someone might carry a certain gene, but not receive its effects. I actually do think the Sage probably had Wood Release, but it's very possible he only had the genes and they didn't have any effect inside him. Wood Release is not a new mutation, but that doesn't mean the Sage used it.
 * Also, this is also why I don't think there is a problem with using Tobirama's flesh. I'm sure you can still use a random Senju. If Izanagi is forbidden, that means someone must have tried it out, probably using the DNA of someone other than Hashirama. Every Senju still carries all the genes, but different ones are dominant and recessive, creating different effects in all members, and therefore different talents. Why do people always use Hashirama's DNA and not Tobirama's? That's because he has the Senju blood, with the bonuses of the rare Wood Release kekkei genkai and Tailed Beast manipulation. If you want to use Izanagi, you could get any Senju's blood, but you won't get Hashirama's other abilities.
 * The Uzumaki were distant relatives of the Senju. Maybe one of the Senju ancestor's children was a daughter that married someone from a completely different clan (just random possibility example). Kinkaku and Ginkaku are the same (distant descendants); the Sage probably has thousands of distant descendants. His children had children and they had children, and not all of the children may have stayed within the clan. The moment that happens, they may begin or enter a completely different clan that are "distant relatives". I wouldn't be too surprised if one of my friends turned out to be a distant descendant of George Washington.
 * Also, remember the Uchiha clan ancestor had some spiral-looking eyes. It's believed that the Sharingan are only a derivative of the Rinnegan. It's not exactly inferior or weaker; rather, the Rinnegan without the Senju-based half probably resulted in this Sharingan ancestor, and it developed its own unique characteristics as time went by. This would explain why the Rinnegan cannot use all of the Sharingan's abilities; although the Sharingan is missing a "half", it has developed on its own over time. I don't think Kabuto meant that the Sharingan would just evolve into the Rinnegan on its own; it's probably all those years that passed after Madara implanted Hashirama's cells into his chest. The Senju blood and chakra mixed inside him, and when it was equally spread out through his body, his eyes had the Sage's chakra, and could awaken into the Rinnegan. This is probably what Kabuto meant when he said "evolution".
 * About the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path, it's most likely the body of the Ten-Tails, or containing it. It doesn't have exactly 10 tails, but remember, the Ten-Tails also had spikes on its back. The theory for the statue being the body is basically everywhere on the internet, these details don't really surprise me at all.
 * Also, I'm going to add a theory on the Sage and the Ten-Tails soon.

I'm sorry and yes. It's not that long, I'm used to read a lot so ... ; )

Maybe Omni would be able to answer with Biology ... Uzumaki's most common colour of hair is red. Uchiha and Hyuga colours are dark, black and brown and Senju are hard to say but anime coloured it as black, brown, dark and white. Taking into account the most common colours and traits other than hair ... what could Sage possibly look like ? Of course it is impossible to say, but at least eye and hair colour. I'm trying to fit something into that silhouette, but whatever I try ... I'm not satisfied.
 * How could possibly Sage look like ? Since his 2 sons are like egg and ham, it's kinda hard to imagine.


 * What's with Hyuage and Byakugan ... related to Sage or Ten-Tails somehow ?

So Ten-Tail's eye - hatred = Rinnegan just like Kyubi's chakra in Naruto Uzumaki's body - hatred changed it's characteristics ?
 * I read ur theory ... very good one, you are the best I met so far ^_^


 * That brought me to ... why the hell Naruto's chakra makes up a silhouette of Sage, even Kyubi saying something about Sage upon seeing it ?


 * Oh, so ur assuming already it's Hashirama's face on Madara's chest ? I think so as well ... but, is it a doing of Kabuto or Madara's own ?


 * You somwhere mentioned that Wood Release and power to control beasts are 2 powers, I think it's possible.

I don't think that controlling sand is power of Shukaku at all ... when he changed into full form, he has not used any sand at all, only through Gaara. I think Gaara inherited power to control Shukaku from Karura and Magnet Release as well from father. When 4th Kazekage use sand his eyes have those rings like Gaara's. Chiyo commenting he is compatible. So in short, Shukaku's power/a binding to it's power(mother) + Magnet Release(father) turned into a new ability "sand control"
 * Oh, and everyone oppose Karura being a host ... what do you think ?


 * Konohamaru's and Tsunade's parents ? Tsunade is both Uzumaki and Senju but unknown to what extent ... does not she have "power of younger son" then ?


 * Orochimaru being Nawaki's sensei


 * your ending prediction ... is Sasuke really evil ? Will he come back to senses ? Are Naruto or Sasuke gonan get Rinnegan ? What Tobi want to do with Sasuke ? Who will die in the end ?

Thanks for ur time ^_^

--Elveonora (talk) 09:41, January 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, seeing the Sage's silhouette, I usually imagine a guy hat has a face like Hashirama and Madara combined, and probably black hair, seeing his sons. He probably had white hair by the time of his death. I mean, maybe his wife had black hair and he had some other color. We really can't tell, but black hair is a good guess. I also have no idea about eye color, but I think it would've been black. Uchiha an activate and deactivate their Sharingan, and it's black when deactivated. The Sage would've only activated the Rinnegan when tapping into the Ten-Tails' powers, so I would guess it was some other color, maybe black, when deactivated.
 * There's too many possibilities for the Byakugan at the moment for me. But let's think of a imaginative example:


 * The Uchiha clan ancestor had many children, but one of them (having some kind of dōjutsu similar to the Sharingan ancestor at the moment) departed to some other area in the world, and married normal people with normal eyes. Over hundreds of years, perhaps the eye went through a series of mutations, and formed the less-hateful Hyūga clan. Meanwhile, the other children stayed with the family, and married people in the area. This would've kept the Uchiha blood thick and less mixed, leading to the direct evolution of the Sharingan through hate. It should be noted that the Hyūga used to place strong emphasis on the older children being of the Main House, possibly relating to the grudge of the older son.
 * Since the Sage created the Tailed Beasts with the Creation of All Things ability, I think he just created their shapes and gave them emotions and intelligence, and then put some of the Ten-Tails' chakra and hate inside them afterwards. As we saw with Son Gokū, the Eight-Tails, and Kurama, they are not just mindless beings of hate, actually quite the opposite. Different from how they were first introduced in the manga, the Tailed Beasts are quite understanding of things. To me, it seems that he Sage was unable to erase the hatred inside the Ten-Tails because it is just raw, pure hatred. However, the fox's hatred is not a pure hatred; it seems more closer to an anger toward humans and how they treated him as a destructive weapon, either hating him or using him. So I think Naruto will be able to possibly erase this kind of hatred, since it isn't just pure hatred, but rather a kind of hatred that the fox developed on its own. Right now, Naruto isn't really suppressing its hate like the Sage did, he's really taking it away and getting rid of it. I think this is what the Eight-Tails, and maybe the Four-Tails, went through.
 * About the new seal and what the fox said about the Sage of the Six Paths. The fox didn't say "Rikudō" when Naruto transformed. He said it when Naruto used the seal on him. This probably means that the seal is the one that the Sage used, maybe to suppress the Ten-Tails. It's either that:


 * every host uses this inside their subconscious to suppress the beast completely,
 * or:


 * Naruto is able to use this because of his Uzumaki lineage.
 * It probably has something to do with the"key" that Minato left behind for Naruto to use. Maybe Minato somehow figured out the Sage's technique.

Other than that:
 * I am sure Madara implanted Hashirama's cells into himself soon after his faked "death" at the Valley of the End. I see no other reason why he would awaken the Rinnegan before his real death years later. We are all sure that he lived long enough to meet Nagato, which also means that the real Madara was really alive in the time Jiraiya was alive too. It it even possible that the "eyes" that Tobi claims he gave to Nagato actually were Madara's eyes, taken after his death. If this is true, then Madara planned it. As soon as he was revived, he thinks Nagato revived him with Rinne Tensei, suggesting that this was all a plan.
 * I don't think Karura was the host, because the beast was implanted into Gaara before his birth. Kushina had a beast while giving birth, and it was extracted, and sealed back into Naruto. The same thing didn't happen with Karura; she would have died if they extracted the beast first, and the beast wouldn't have survived if she died.
 * Also, I actually think sand control is Shukaku's power. The Third Kazekage studied the previous host of Shukaku to invent Iron Sand control. I find it quite unlikely that the exact same thing as what happened to Gaara happened to the previous host. However, Karura's will somehow lives inside Gaara. This is actually NOT as new as most people think. If you go back all the way to Chapter 130 page 8 in Part I, Yashamaru actually says that Shukaku uses sand to attack, but the automatic Shield of Sand is a result of Karura's will, preventing Gaara from being hurt. It may have something to do with Magnet Release, but my theory at the moment doesn't believe that. Of course, you can read about my idea for Sand Manipulation on the actual page. Also, I talked about Chiyo saying he was compatible somewhere else, but we're not sure how that works yet. It might also be a myth: The previous Eight-Tails host said that all a jinchūriki needed was love.
 * One of Tsunade's parents was half Senju and half Uzumaki. If the other parent was neither, then Tsunade would only be quarter Senju and quarter Uzumaki. I would say tthe blood is too thin to take major effect, but in general it could explain her talent for medical ninjutsu, and how she seems to have substantial longevity and vitality. This may also be why it's never strongly stated she's a Senju. Also, you should remember that the Uzumaki were distantly related: This means that they have a whole lot of other DNA mixed in. The part of the Sage's DNA isn't as pure as the SSenju's which is why they are a separate clan.
 * Orochimaru is Nawaki's sensei? What makes you think that?
 * Well, if Kishi decides to make Sasuke good again, it would have to be very gradual, maybe even more gradual than Kurama's change. Also, he should be careful, since Sasuke has a lot of popularity for being a cool "avenger". Probably in some final epic fight, either both will die or neither will die. If both die, that's the end of Naruto as we know it, since reviving them would be very lame. If they both live, I guess Sasuke could help kill Tobi and do something about Kabuto, possibly giving him the chance to return to Konoha. This would also require Sasuke to forgive the elders and help in reestablishing peace or something like that. Also, Rinnegan has been overused, so giving it to Naruto or Sasuke would be pretty disappointing. --GoDai (talk) 01:55, January 9, 2012 (UTC)

Mito had no whiskers, Kushina had no whiskers, Minato had no whiskers after sealing Yin half of the chakra into himself. So if you as well believe it's from Kyubi and due to Naruto being exposed to the chakra while still developing in the womb ... Kin&Gin were mature by that time ... Shukaku was sealed into Gaara before he was born. How can you seal something into a child in a womb ? It goes through the mother, unless Shukaku was already in Karura. But here is the interesting question, they sealed Shukaku into Gaara by some unknown means or right through previous host Karura ... but what then Chiyo meant by saying he is compatible ? He said that after he was born, so what would be the point of sealing Shukaku into Gaara if he was not compatible ? Does this mean they tried it on more children without a success ? (children died before being born) but then again Temari and Kankuro are alive. That's why I think "he is compatible" has nothing with Shukaku but Magnet Release. Also I don't think either the eyes or whiskers are result of tailed beasts.
 * Are you sure Sage had wife ? He was a monk/priest after all ... more like his sons being created with COAT
 * Also I have a thought about one thing ... everyone says Naruto's whiskers are a result of Kyubi's chakra.

It was said that when a host dies, the beast is set free. But in Naruto's case it's he dies, Kyubi dies. Isn't this to prevent Kyubi from being revived after Naruto's death ? Basically ruining Tobi's plans right from the start, but it looks like he knows that since he took Kin&Gin along with Kyubi's Yin chakra in them.
 * Also I have a theory about for what purpose Minato sealed the Yin half into himself and Yang one into Naruto.

Another reason is cause Minato knew something we don't and look at the result. Naruto using Kyubi's Yang chakra as his own with the new seal = So6p mode Younger son got Sage's yang ... Uzumaku as descendants of this younger son possess Sage's yang chakra as well but watered down. Sage's watered down yang chakra increased in power with Kyubi's yang chakra = original Sage's yang chakra.

I think as well that the seal Naruto used is the same as Sage had. I think it works by purifying the chakra of hatred and using it as the host's own. Ie. Kyubi's chakra transforming into Naruto's own chakra combining strength and uniqe properties of both host and beast.

Also I have a theory Sage had both Sharingan and Rinnegan, being able to switch between the two just like Madara. When using just Ten-Tail's Yin chakra with the seal, he activated Sharingan. When using just Ten-Tail's Yang chakra with the seal, he activated Rinnegan. When both, it was the all seeing eye/eye of god/whatever for the use of Creation of all thing technique.

So J-man taught Naruto sealing techniques in timeskip ? Maybe you read the topic I started about it, please read link it all when you get some free time ; )
 * Also, does this mean I was right and "that technique" J-man told Naruto not to use = Torii Seal ?

He said that Kabuto has prepared.
 * But if he had that Hashirama's face on chest along with Wood Release before death, why did he look at his chest and said he wants to try something out (wood release) ?

So the real Madara giving eyes to Nagato, Izuna pretending to be Madara thus speaking about himself as "Madara" and he himself giving Nagato the Rinnegan is not really a lie, since Madara's eyes were really his.
 * Well, if you believe my Izuna theory ... Madara's eyes are in fact Izuna's to begin with.


 * Studied previous host of Shukaku to invent Iron Sand control, ie. Magnet Release

Maybe I just expected some hax no jutsu or something, but we might see her full power in Kages vs Madara if we are lucky.
 * Actually you are right ... Maybe Tsunade's advanced transformation stemms from being both Senju and Uzumaki ... also that would explain her longevity and vitality for such age, you are right.

Not to mention we have seen just Anko, he must had 2 others. The part about Orochimaru being his sensei is in Nawaki's article as well.
 * Orochimaru was with Nawaki there as he died. He also kinda mourned his death in anime only to joke about it later.

So one of them awakening it is possible ... most likely Sasuke coming to senses and sacrificing himself for Naruto, with Naruto taking Sasuke's EMS and mourning Sasuke's death and in a wave of anger turning it into Rinnegan defeating Tobi/Izuna and Madara ; )
 * I don't think Rinnegan is overused more than Sharingan tbh :P


 * Do you think Oro is gonna comee back ?

Thats all for now, thanks and sorry. --Elveonora (talk) 09:39, January 9, 2012 (UTC)