Talk:Will Materialisation/Archive 1

Validity of the Page
I know there's bound to be someone who has something to say. Well, nonetheless, this page was gonna to be created at some point, right? KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 14:53, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

Let me ask everyone this, why do we need another "will materialis(z)ation" technique since we have Creation of All Things? There's no need to make another with the same purpose and effects--Elveonora (talk) 15:02, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * Honestly, I do not know. Remember that huge discussion we had in Madara's page when it was you, me, and I believe one other person against the whole world? Well, some how, some way, they still believed that the two abilities had their "distinctive differences".(btw that discussion went unresolved) So to appease the masses, I created this. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 15:06, June 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * At the point where we are standing, this page ins't necessary, but further chapters may prove that the page is valid, maybe not. Probably @Elv is right on this. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 15:12, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

Yea, but it doesn't hurt to keep this page. There could possibly be forever ongoing arguments on what Madara did v. what the Sage did. So, for now, the page is good. Furthermore, this ability is a tad bit too astounding to not be placed in a page. It, literally could be a signature of Madara. KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 15:16, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * Looking from that point of view, could be a Madara's signature, but it is a very remote probability. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 15:27, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * However, Madara's use of this technique has left trails of importance in the series. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 15:29, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

Why only Yang Release
Can someone explain, why this technique would only be an application of yang release? KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 15:27, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * Why would it be YYR? There's no body formed out of nothing/imagination, only will breathed into an already existing body. Seelentau 愛議 15:28, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * I can say why isn't, so this is not for me xD. I'll wait for further opinions ^_^. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 15:29, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

Well guys, what about the chakra receivers? KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 15:30, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * They're his will in a physical shape, dunno if that's YYR. But they don't have anything to do with this ability, hm? Seelentau 愛議 15:36, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * Liking this discussion already, never thought about that possibility, it makes a lot of sense, but how could pain creat them? wouldn't that be only a Zetsu matter skill?. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 15:41, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * The discussion in Madara's page, we wanted to account both in the same technique. Both the things Madara did was done to his will. He's putting them in a physical form. He did it creating the chakra receivers, and by tainting a Zetsu. At least the creation of the chakra receiver accounts for the Yin, form-creating aspect of it. And about how Pain made it, he seemed able only to increase the quantity of the ones he already had instead of creating them out of nothing. There's a comment somewhere about a WJS issue saying the made them by encasing his blood with chakra, but that was never properly sourced, so it never made it into any article. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:44, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

That's not how it works Seelentau. Yin is a thought form, Yang makes it real. It doesn't have to be alive to be YYR--Elveonora (talk) 16:28, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yang gives it life. Yin gives it form. We have neither here. We only have "will", which was never mentioned to be in relation to Yin or Yang. I really don't get why this should've anything to do with Yin or Yang at all. Seelentau 愛議 22:07, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * Madara previously said that Zetsu were created with Yin-Yang Release. Black Zetsu is still a Zetsu. I think that the focus here is a bit more on what powers each nature. Will is sensation, it's something from the mind, volition. Yin Release comes from mental energies. And Madara said the chakra receivers are his will materialised, meaning that something insubstantial and abstract was given physical substance and form. Granted, it has no life, but we also know that those two natures are responsible for many ninjutsu, ones that don't necessarily give life to other stuff. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:34, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * Alright, White Zetsu was created with YYR and the black needle-thing was created with YYR. But why do you think Black Zetsu was also created with YYR? Seelentau 愛議 05:10, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Because Black Zetsu was made by taking a mental concept (will/Yin) and turning it into a physical concept (body/Yang). Madara basically said that when he infused his will to make BZ, that BZ was basically an inferior replica to himself. Darksusanoo (talk) 09:50, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * But there was no new body formed out of nothing. Madara used an already existing body. Seelentau 愛議 09:53, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * It sounds like Will Materialisation is simply Yang Release. General Awesomo (talk) 12:21, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * "Will" isn't physical, but a mental attribute. So it couldn't be only YR. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 12:41, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Right. Will and life are close to the same idea. That's why it sounds like only Yang Release. General Awesomo (talk) 12:56, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * I know. In this case i believe it is YYR, creating "will's" form through Yin Release, and giving it form through Yang Release. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 13:09, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * You're right, but I was thinking about the case with Black Zetsu. In that case, we would have to specify that that process is only Yang Release, as Madara is only materialising his will in an already existing form, the White Zetsu.


 * On second thought... where did the Chakra Receivers, Disruption Blades and Receiver Stakes come from? Their forms weren't created by Madara. They came with the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path. General Awesomo (talk) 13:18, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

Sage's ability was called "creation of all things" not of living things. Yin is a concept of something in mind, thought form of it and Yang makes it real, animate or inanimate--Elveonora (talk) 13:20, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

Honestly, what more needs to be said here? Where's the Yin Release here? There's no forms being created. General Awesomo (talk) 14:20, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * @General he is trasnforming it in black roots, giving them his "will". How could you apply something that isn't fishical to a fishical state without Yin Release? Dan.Faulkner (talk) 14:27, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

Alright guys, let Koto try and break this down. This technique is called Will Materialization. What we saw, or know, that Madara created whats his will given form. The will itself is his image and design of what he creates (which in this case is Yin) The action of creating it, or bringing it to life, is our Yang. Just b/c Madara skipped the process of showing us the previously formed mental image, doesn't mean he doesn't do that part first.If I can quote Elveo on this one: "it's basic reading comprehension". KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 14:28, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * The act of simply creating form is Yin Release. Madara didn't actually create any form. General Awesomo (talk) 14:33, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * What are those black chakra receivers coming out of Obito's half Zetsu body part? Isn't that giving form? And transforming something that is white to black isn't giving something that is not physical? If that is not Yin Release, i don't know what Yin and Yang are. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 14:40, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * The same way White Zetsus turn into trees when they come in contact with Yang Release. Madara's Will Materialisation "awakened" the black spikes in Obito. General Awesomo (talk) 15:03, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

Are you flippin' serious ,General A? Just b/c the Black Zetsu doesn't have a body of his doesn't mean he didn't create form. Yin is an imaginary form; yang is giving it physical form. He definitely created form sir. It was just attached to something that already existed. KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 14:36, June 28, 2013 (UTC)


 * Koto Senju: yes, I am serious. Relax. You have Yin Release and Yang Release a little mixed up. Go ahead, check their articles. Yin Release is creating form. Yang Release is giving life to the form. All Madara did in the case of Black Zetsu was materialise his will (in this case, it gets treated as life) in a White Zetsu. Yin-Yang Release would be creating a Black Zetsu from scratch. General Awesomo (talk) 14:47, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok, im relaxed. However using the same example: Madara created the form for black Zetsu(Yin), attached it to White Zetsu, and infused it with life and knowledge, thus making it sentient.(Yang) Just b/c he created it attached to White Zetsu, doesn't mean it's not from scratch. His design was for it to be attached to White Zetsu. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 14:53, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * He didn't create the Black Zetsu. He gave it life. The Black Zetsu grew its side of the head and an arm on its own. General Awesomo (talk) 15:11, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

The form that Yin Release creates in a non-tangible imaginary one, nothing physical, only it with Yang it becomes one. That's why Genjutsu are Yin Release, they are mental, not physicall--Elveonora (talk) 14:59, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * You sure about that? The article for Yin Release says "The Yin Release (陰遁, Inton; Viz "Dark Style" or "Shadow Style") techniques, based on the spiritual energy that governs the imagination, can be used to create form out of nothingness." It doesn't specify what kind of form. General Awesomo (talk) 15:07, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes @General, @Elv is right, but the truth is that the Yin Release article and Yang Release article are difficult to understand, they are a bit confusing. But the knowledge that Yin creates non-tangible forms, only imaginary ones, comes with the series' information acknowledgement. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 18:08, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

So everyone who has a will is using Yin Release while having that will? And those who make that will physical are using Yang Release to do so? At least that's the logical conclusion if you're saying the will alone is Yin Release. Seelentau 愛議 21:22, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well yes will alone would be yin release --ROOT 根 (talk) 21:58, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, "then lets add Yin Release to every character who ever had the will to do anything, like buying Ramen or so.". Sounds dumb, doesn't it? But that's the logical consequence when you take things as fact, even though there's close to no information available. This is exactly what's happening here and one of the bigger problems I have with this wiki: You're taking things as facts even though they aren't confirmed yet, only hinted at. For example: The 2nd Mizukage said that all Intonjutsu are genjutsu. What we should write in the related articles: "The Second Mizukage stated that all Intonjutsu are genjutsu". What some of you guys want to do: Adding Inton to each and every Genjutsu and Genjutsu user because going by what the 2nd Mizukage said, every Intonjutsu is a genjutsu and that surely means every genjutsu is an Intonjutsu, too. Or to go with the matter at hand: Tobi explained how the RS used BS to create the tailed beasts and how Yin and Yang were involved. What we should add: How Yin and Yang were involved in the creation of the tailed beasts. What some of you want to add: Yin Yang Release to every article that sounds as if there could be Yin Yang Release involved, even if that was never directly stated at all. You're overthinking things, which leads to false or unconfirmed information being written down as facts. This isn't helping the wiki at all, as you might guess. Seelentau 愛議 22:11, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand now, your right we do need to stop adding every little things that are not even confirmed as facts but you a right I've realized that adding will as yin release would be very stupid, but having read this argument the yin and yang problem Is a bit confusing --ROOT 根 (talk) 22:18, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * By the way good edit you Just did then Selantau-san I'ts made me understand will materialization better :) --ROOT 根  (talk) 22:24, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict times 100) Mizukage made a generalisation about Yin Release and genjutsu. I don't recall his statement in any way defining that all Inton are genjutsu, nor the other way around, all genjutsu being Inton. As far as the black rods go, giving it a form to me accounts for Yin, the "concept" or "image" of it as a rod. Making it real, is Yang. What complicates this is that the rods aren't alive. Those two aspects for me are enough to list it as YYR. With BZ, it seems to me Madara simply materialised his will, but in a different form. Instead of making it a rod, he manifested it as a different personality of Zetsu, he personified his will and knowledge in that. That isn't ideal either, because while alive, it was made from something else that was already alive, a White Zetsu clone. If not listed as YYR, it shouldn't be listed as either Yin or Yang, but as explained, I think there is enough things said to call this a YYR. But it has to be either both or neither. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:29, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand where you're coming from, but you're basing all this on the very few and very vague information we have about Yin and Yang. We don't know how the whole concept works, we only have bits of information from here and there, and you guys are making statements acting as if you'd know everything there's to know about Yin and Yang. That shouldn't be. :/ Seelentau 愛議 22:35, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

See now, that's the thing that causes the confusion. Blk Zetsu was not created from White Zetsu, he was created attached to White Zetsu. Do not forget they can separate. KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 22:37, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Nope, you can see in the manga that WZ is being filled up with the will, similar to a coating or an infusion. Seelentau 愛議 22:40, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

You are overreacting Seel, no one said buying Ramen equals Yin Release. Giving a thought form (Yin Release) being genjutsu and then making the said genjutsu real with Yang Release equals Yin-Yang Release. Thinking isn't yin release, but materializing of thought is genjutsu, mental form of things essentially--Elveonora (talk) 22:38, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * How can you give a thought a form, if not by materializing it in the real world? Seelentau 愛議 22:43, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * With Yin Release. Imagine you are an artist. The ideas you get are subjective, they are nothing, unless you paint them on something, then they became objective (Yin Release) you gave them a figurative form by doing so. By adding Yang, you make the drawings real--Elveonora (talk) 23:07, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * If the idea of a painting is Yin and the painting itself is Yang, then I still ask: Shouldn't we add YYR to everyone who ever had an idea (Yin) and put it into action, thus materialized it (Yang)? Seelentau 愛議 23:26, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Depends on how you make the painting. For sake of argument, let's look at Sai. His technique screams Yang Release. Why not Yin-Yang? Because he draws the paintings himself. Deidara's clay sculptures are kinda like that as well. The forms they give those creations aren't done with chakra, only animated with it. Not all actions can be considered like that. If someone thinks up a new taijutsu move and uses it, that's obviously not YYR. If someone thinks up a new Fire Release that looks like jackal, and uses it, that's neither YR. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:46, June 28, 2013 (UTC)


 * Again, an idea itself isn't Yin, because it's subjective and the existence of a thought in reality can't be confirmed/verified because it doesn't exist in any by others observable form whatsoever. It has to be objective, either taken from one's mind and shared with others or embodied in a form as an object, exposing it to space and time. A painting is a good example of intangible transformed into tangible. A genjutsu too, sharing an idea/thought or memory with others gives it form, because of their senses and ability to comprehend space and time, it's like watching a film.--Elveonora (talk) 00:04, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * So I've an idea for a painting or whatever and I tell others about it, would that be Yin Release and would the actual act of painting it be Yang Release? Because that's how I understand your explanation. Furthermore, isn't this whole talk page proof that it's too early to declare anything besides BZ as YR/YR/YYR? Seelentau 愛議 09:22, June 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * In a way, yes, but don't take it literary. It's just true in concept. I believe that: thoughts/ideas, sensations and memories; are "Yin Chakra" While any action being executed in reality and interaction is "Yang Chakra" movement essentially and relation between tangible objects as cause and effect. Now, objectifying "Yin Chakra" exposing it to other subjects "confirms" its "existence" and makes it Yin Release. For example, replaying a memory using the Sharingan traps someone in a dimension of something that once was occurring in space-time but is no longer, the victim perceives it as truly happening though.

Yang Release should be transformation and transfer of energy and matter, I think. Something that naturally occurs, just used artificially.--Elveonora (talk) 13:51, June 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * Lol @Seel. Ok let me try to give you my own example. Let's take the 2nd Mizukage's technique for example. He seemingly creates form out of nothingess. While you can see it, you cannot however touch it or even sense it with anything other than your eyes. In otherwords, it is only something that you can perceive, right? Now, let's say i add some oof my Yang Chakra into his technique. My Yang Chakra will fill that empty (and intangible) form with life, thus bringing it into reality. Since the "form" is not alive itself, it is thus controlled by the jutsu and its caster, the yang chakra would henceforth make this illusionary form sentient and alive. It would become its own being and not directly under the influence of the jutsu nor its caster. What i just explained are the basic principle of what the Sage did with Banbutsu Sozo, and what Madara did with Blk Zetsu. Now if you are still confused with the creation of the Chakra Receivers, it is not that different, but i get your point. Basically, your saying "if doesnt have life (meaning anctual life), how could it be YYR?", right? Well, that too is simple. We cannot take the "giving life(Yang)" meaning too literal. The most logical and most generalised meaning of the word would mean that "giving life" is synonymous to bringing into life/into the real world. They are giving it life-like qualities, not giving it the qualities of life. Did you catch my drift? With this, i hope that our discussion is over, and we can go back to that beautiful YYR under this techniques description. Otherwise, we would have to change Madara YYR section of his article. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 13:54, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think adding YYR is a good idea, since there's no proof given in the manga for it being YYR, only your conclusions, based on what you understand YYR to be, all while making more out of it than it is. Readers might be confused by that, since they won't understand your thoughts behind it, if even I don't understand them.
 * Regarding your example: You don't understand how the 2nd MK's genjutsu works. It doesn't create actual fata morganas of the shell and the MK, it only manipulates the enemie's mind into seeing these fata morganas, meaning that they aren't actually seeing anything at all. There is no form created with the genjutsu and the victims of it don't perceive anything, either. They're made think that they're seeing and attacking a fata morgana. And since there's no form, you can't fill it with Yang chakra and making it real that way.
 * What the sage did with BZ is the following: He created empty shells out of nothingness with Yin Release and filled them with the ten-tail's chakra through Yang Release. There's nothing else to it than that.
 * I do understand how Madara created the black rods and black Zetsu: He purged his will into simple rods and a simple Zetsu which resulted in a black colour. Calling that YYR is a hasty judgement rooted in your beliefs and opinions about the whole topic.
 * So as I said, please don't add YYR wherever you think it fits. That's not the NP I know and like. The real NP would say "Okay, we describe in the article what Madara did, exactly as it was shown and explained." and if someone came and asked "Wouldn't that be YYR because ?", we'd say "Could be, yes, but that's only speculation, let's just wait until the topic is further explained". I honestly think you guys are the ones who ask such questions and you're like taking over the NP in the last months, changing how thinks work here and kind of destroying what the NP stands for. Please don't take that as an insult, I'm just thinking that way. Seelentau 愛議 23:54, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

@Koto made the best point of what we all were trying to clarify. Now demystifying the part where Zetsu's clones with Yang Chakra becomes trees. As has been said they are literally plants, which makes Yang condoning with their cells increasing their vital force, turning them into trees. I believe almost everyone here knows this. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 14:30, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

Ok @Seel, you may have your thoughts and may disagree with certain ways of thinking but firing a statement like that is a tad extreme and regardless of your intentions it is disrespectul, especially because we also enjoy and try to do our best for NP. Lets follow the basic concept. Yin revolves (by the given evidence) around mental based techniques such as genjutsu. While not all genjutsu maybe Yin...Yin is genjutsu based. Yang is based on the physical side. Yin-Yang takes the mental and turns it into physical...Izanagi in a nutshell turns your body into an illusion and then re-creates it. The Sage's Creation of All Things made the tailed beasts from the Ten-Tails chakra...to do so...it had to give them a mind (Yin) and a body (Yang). Now let's look into Madara...his way of making BZ...sure he may have used a pre-existing Zetsu...but by aplying his will (mental/Yin) and having it produce a physical effect, such as turning him from white to black and Madara basically reffered to BZ as a lesser clone of himself. The rods are the same...his will (i'm getting so tired of that word right now xD) is turned into a physical object and produces a physical effect on those affected by it. So far the series has not given anyother explanation to contradict this, so why not work with what we have now... Darksusanoo (talk) 16:43, June 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * As I said, I don't want to insult anyone here.
 * The problem is that will isn't the same as Yin. That was never stated anywhere, you're guys making it up and build your argumentation around it.
 * What we have now is this: "Madara is able to imbue human beings with his will, which creates a copy of himself that is black in colour. He's also able to create black rods from his will, which can serve as transmitter for chakra and the will itself. He's seemingly able to control other people after he imbued them with his will.". Everything else is pure speculation, even if it sounds plausible (even to me), and thus should simply not be added to the wiki.
 * I mean, we've the RS as another example: If we go by your logic, he'd have to be added as a user of all the six paths jutsu, since it's obvious that he was able to use them. But we don't add him, simply because he wasn't mentioned or even shown using most of them. Seelentau 愛議 14:46, July 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * There's not that much harm not listing it as any release for now I admit. After all, we shouldn't guess stuff like that, hell we don't even list obvious rank of techniques when not stated. I still am certain this will turn out to be creation of all things nevertheless in the end--Elveonora (talk) 17:17, July 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Although, usually I am a stubborn fellow, I have to agree with you here. There's really no harm in it. I mean, hey, it's better than being totally wrong, right? And like I said in the first section of this talk page, I agree with Elveo wholeheartedly. Most likely, if Madara doesn't fully explain what he did (or if he doesn't do it in the future) a databook, will certainly fill in the blanks. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 17:56, July 1, 2013 (UTC)

So we can conclude this and take it as an example for similar conflicts in the future? Seelentau 愛議 22:05, July 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hoping next chapter clarifies any confusion in the minds of those who do not understand why this is YYR, or not xD. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 22:48, July 1, 2013 (UTC)

Obito and Nagato as Users - A General Rinnegan Move
I think this is a general Rinnegan move as both Nagato and Obito could use it, too. We saw Obito use it in his fight with Kakashi where he summoned one and stabbed him. Diamonddeath (talk) 16:04, June 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't wanna be rude and just bump this, so im gonna give you a solid no. Read this technique again. Then read Madara's and the Black Receivers' pages. Madara, created those. It is only as you said. They summoned them, nothing else. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 16:08, June 27, 2013 (UTC)

Yin Release, Yang Release or Yin-Yang Release?
Ok, lets settle this out, to me it is Yin-Yang release and none of them separately. Someone with his opinion made too? If yes write it here. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 14:22, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yin-Yang. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 14:29, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

I say it's simply Yang Release. Madara isn't creating any form with Yin Release. He's using Yang Release to materialise his will into things. And he didn't create the Chakra Receivers, Chakra Disruption Blades or Chakra Receiver Stakes. Those came with the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path. General Awesomo (talk) 14:34, June 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * You are obviously confused. Read my last comment 2 topics above. Second, the rods didn't come from the statue, that was something we assumed. They were likely in for it to could be controlled by Madara--Elveonora (talk) 15:00, June 28, 2013 (UTC)

It is aubviously yin yang, you need both of them to creat something out of nothingness.--Charmanking2198 (talk) 22:31, June 28, 2013 (UTC)


 * Wasn't Madara just talking about Yang (or was it Yin) in the panel where he created Black Zetsu?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 23:24, June 28, 2013 (UTC)


 * Ok People...Yang Release is stated as a life giving/physical based energy...Yin Release is will/mental based energy (genjutsu anyone?)...Madara takes a mental concept or energy (Yin) and turns it into a physical one, such as the black matter that envolved both Obito and Zetsu (Yang), and as such he can enforce a direct control over others (Thus Yin-Yang). Plus Madara said that the rods were a physical manifestation of will and we saw how they protuded from Obito when Madara enforced control over him...first to turn mental energy into a physical one is the whole basis of Yin-Yang...and thus things that are derived from it...such as making a clone from it or a person being controled by it, are also Yin-Yang. Darksusanoo (talk) 00:10, June 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * "It is aubviously yin yang, you need both of them to creat something out of nothingness."
 * From Yin Release's article: "The Yin Release (陰遁, Inton; Viz "Dark Style" or "Shadow Style") techniques, based on the spiritual energy that governs the imagination, can be used to create form out of nothingness."
 * Man, what the hell. General Awesomo (talk) 00:21, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * Thought is nothingness, genjutsu is the form.--Elveonora (talk) 00:24, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

Do we really need this article? And what is Yin Release?
Do we really need this article? Will Materialisation is simply an extension of the Outer Path. It's implanting Madara's will, and like the Outer Path with Chakra Receivers, Chakra Disruption Blades and Chakra Receiver Stakes, Will Materialisation can be used to control a body just like with the Six Paths of Pain.

What is Yin Release? What kinds of forms can it create? Tangible or intangible objects? Can it create an apple? A tree? A boulder? We have to specify this in it's article. If it creates tangible forms, then we can rule out Black Zetsu's creation coming to through with the use of Yin–Yang Release. General Awesomo (talk) 00:22, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

I believe the actual "activate will taking over" part is done through Outer Part, that doesn't make this technique an Outer Path ability at all. This article is about materializing will, not it taking over. And there's no need for another topic, the rest is discussed above--Elveonora (talk) 00:27, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

Ok people instead of wasting the space of the discussion, read the articles on it...let me give you the short version. Madara says black rods are his will manifested in physical...will is a mental concept which is the basis of Yin Release which also envolves genjutsu. Yang is a physical one...Naruto's NTCM is pure Yang chakra which can cause certain things such as Wood Release based things grow further, as it is a life giving force. Yin-Yang takes a mental concept and turns it into a permanent physical one (The Sage used this to turn the Ten-Tails' chakra into the tailed beasts, The Uchiha used this for Izanagi, and Madara used this to create a physical device to enforce his will and control over others...when he made Black Zetsu, he had already removed his Rinnegan, so if he could still use it, he doesn't need the Rinnegan)...so all in all, yes this article is necessary. And if Madara needed to use the Outer Path to do this, he wouldn't be able to make BZ, becaus he had removed his Rinnegan at the time! Darksusanoo (talk) 00:33, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

@Darksusanoo, your lack of reading comprehension is morbid--Elveonora (talk) 00:45, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * Making jabs at those you disagree isn't a great way to contribute either. Disagree all you want, no need to be ungraceful about it. This is something I really should tell more people around this wiki. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:49, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

Darksusanoo, you still didn't completely answer my second question. Can Yin Release be used to create tangible objects?

Good point about the no Rinnegan part. But let's not rule that out, saying no Rinnegan = no Rinnegan powers. For example, for Susanoo, in the trivia we have stated that "Members of the clan have been noted to access Susanoo without having their Mangekyō Sharingan activated." So maybe once you have the Rinnegan awakened in your blood, you don't absolutely need the eyes to use the abilities.

And we've never seen or heard how the rods were created. Could be Madara, could have come with the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path.

And I've chosen to make a new topic about this... because those topics were getting crowded lol. Sorry. General Awesomo (talk) 00:51, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

@Omni, I'm not ungraceful, but I have explained to him numerous times what I mean by Outer Path being used and he still doesn't get it, babbling his own instead based on misunderstanding of what what I say. EDIT: @Darksusanoo and @General Awsomo for the last time, no one said Outer Path was used to make his will real. I'm saying he used it to activate his will remotely to control Obito in the latest chapter. The rods and "black hash will" were created using what we argue above, yin/yang/yin-yang whatever--Elveonora (talk) 00:57, June 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * Oh, sorry about that Elveonora. I guess I just skimmed through and missed that one. So I guess Will Materialisation is kinda like an Outer Path without the Rinnegan. Now I see its worth as its own article.


 * Still, can anyone tell me what exactly can Yin Release do? Tangible or intangible objects? General Awesomo (talk) 01:05, June 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * Ok, @Awesomo pure Yin Release can't create tangible objects. The thing with Susanoo and Madara, remember, he is a special Edo Tensei with all the powers of his lifetime. Here's the thing...Sharingan-EMS-Rinnegan...Madara's eyes are always the same, the dojutsu in them is what changes...but if his eyes aren't the same, the powers related to them can't be accessed. Check chapter 606 and cross it with the latest one, maybe you'll understand the nature of the rods better.


 * @Elve, it was a bit of a potshot...i have my flaws as an editor and yeah sometimes there are certain things that i don't always get quickly, but at least i try to avoid outright insulting someone. Darksusanoo (talk) 01:12, June 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * All right, thanks. But where did you get that info that Yin Release can't create tangible objects? That would put my mind at ease. Its article sure could use some clarity in that. General Awesomo (talk) 01:19, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Dark, yeah, hugs or whatever, now we move on. Is it still worth arguing what x release it it? @General, well the facts are, that if Yin could create solid things from nothing, then Yang would have little purpose. Genjutsu are Yin and they don't create real things, unless Yang is added, so the form of Yin is intangible, just a concept--Elveonora (talk) 01:23, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Lovely as always @Elve...i don't think we should be having such a long discussion...Madara takes a mental idea and turns it into a physical thing...that is the basis for YYR as stated in the series. Darksusanoo (talk) 01:27, June 29, 2013 (UTC)


 * Elveonora, Yang Release would still be useful. You could have a living, talking apple. Or a talking tree. Or even a talking boulder!


 * ...So... other than a made-up idea of balancing Yin Release so Yang Release has a use, there's no proof whatsoever of what kind of objects Yin Release can create? There's not enough showings of Yin Release in action. I guess I'm done here. There's no point in discussing this any further if we don't have concrete facts about what is possible with Yin Release.


 * But thanks to you all anyways. You've all been helpful and gave me some insight. General Awesomo (talk) 01:37, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

@Awesomo...read the Second Mizukage article...a Yin Release genjutsu user, Yin is mental energy, so genjutsu, something that can manipulate minds is this. Yin-Yang is not made up...The zetsu army was made from it...you give live/physical from Yang and a mind/consciouness from Yin. The tailed beasts were made from it by taking the Ten-Tails chakra, and giving it a mind (Yin) and a body (Yang). With pure Yang you could probably make a tree or an apple but not a talking one, because a consciouness is needed which is the Yin domain. Darksusanoo (talk) 01:52, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Darksusanoo this is a already ended discussion. Everyone understood what giving will a physical form is all about, trying to bring the same doubts that thou hast ain't going to change anything. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 12:16, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not trying to change anything...nor am i talking about doubts, nor did i bring any...i tried to explain something and ended up late for it. Darksusanoo (talk) 12:40, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

Chakra
Now, Hashirama said that Madara was controlling Obito with his Chakra... how does that fit into what we have already? I think it's still too early to describe his will controlling as YR/YR/YYR, but it indeed looks like it was one of those... Seelentau 愛議 16:48, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * This chapter left us where we were already at :/. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 16:52, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * What? Everyone here does know, that short of taijutsu, all forms of ninjutsu are chakra based, soo what's the doubt here? Darksusanoo (talk) 17:31, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * This isn't a Ninjutsu, it's the infusing of the will into another being or materialising it as a rod. You don't need chakra to do it, only your will. Seelentau 愛議 17:32, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * And by what means do you think that would be possible? Thin air? Has the entire series shown anyother energy form to perform their actions other than chakra? Darksusanoo (talk) 17:51, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * No, but it wasn't labelled as Ninjutsu, either. That's the problem here... Seelentau 愛議 17:53, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well it isn't taijutsu, genjutsu, senjutsu or anything else. Unless Kishi-sensei plans on introducing some groundbreaking new field of jutsu near the end of the series, i think were safe. Darksusanoo (talk) 17:58, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Its ninjutsu. Willpower cannot just take control of someone. If it did, this world would be far more humorous. Its obvious to everyone here that chakra was used, and since it isn't genjutsu or taijutsu, its obviously ninjutsu. That's just common sense. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:58, July 3, 2013 (UTC)

The were is chakra used when infusing someone with will? Seelentau 愛議 18:25, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Really @Seel? how else would Madara make his will take on a physical effect, if not by aplying chakra? YYR...had Release on it...as Fire, Water, Wind Release, etc...a form of nature transformation in which the nature of one's chakra is changed to impose an effect...you're not taking into account the most basic concept in the series. Darksusanoo (talk) 18:55, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * I do, but having that concept doesn't mean that eveything that's done in the series fits into it. Seelentau 愛議 18:57, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah it does...everything short of taijutsu uses chakra. Darksusanoo (talk) 19:06, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * This is really a discussion? It is obviously a ninjutsu and for that, is obviously based on chakra, now the problem here is what type of chakra? 1: Yin Release. 2: Yang release. 3: Yin-Yang Release, and this chapter didn't help, for what i can see now, the black rods are filled with Madara's "will" but that "will" isn't capable to exercise full control over the person, but when someone is conected with this rods and Madara utilize his chakra, he can force the person to do what he wants her to do. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 19:11, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * The existence of Taijutsu prooves that there are things that don't fit into the "everything that's done in Naruto needs chakra", doesn't it?
 * Either that, Dan, or will and chakra have no relation at all. Seelentau 愛議 19:17 July 3, 2013 (UTC)

Will Materialisation is a dōjutsu, right? General Awesomo (talk) 20:17, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Unknown at the current time...Darksusanoo (talk) 20:21, July 3, 2013 (UTC)

Remember the Kurama thing, will comes along with chakra--Elveonora (talk) 20:19, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * And, actually, taijutsu uses chakra too. Case in point being the Front Lotus, anything related to the Eight Gates, and the usage of Nintaijutsu. I can't believe this is even being argued. By Seelantau's argument, we shouldn't name anything ninjutsu unless it is outright stated to be ninjutsu. Willpower is just willpower until chakra is applies to it, which is what causes it to take on supernatural properties. That is the basic principle of ninjutsu in this series and has been since day one. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:22, July 3, 2013 (UTC)

The Eight Gates could serve as another example of supernatural power without the use of Chakra. You don't need Chakra to open the gates, am I right? Seelentau 愛議 21:51, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Seel it does, it needs to focus chakra on them in order to open them. Sad discussion this one, i can't believe it either. To me this rods are created with YYR, but there is no hope for an explanation, seems Kishi wont talk of it anymore. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 21:55, July 3, 2013 (UTC)

For me it's quite clear it was ninjutsu. The effects were very real (so it's not genjutsu), and it didn't look like any sort of chakra based or enhanced taijutsu we've ever seen. About Madara controlling Obito with his chakra, I understood that as Madara using chakra to activate the chakra rods that are his will. Don't forget that from day one, we've known them to channel chakra. The rods are probably reacting to the chakra he is using to activate them. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:07, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * To me what Hashirama said is that the rods are created and manipulated with chakra, to me that's obvious, now i don't know for sure if "embeding" this Zetsu matter with his "will" is enough to force someone to do what he wants them to do. Like Zetsu, he has Madara's "will" but he still "free", but aplying diferent chakra from what Madara used to create the rods, he can control that person. Create = YYR, Control = Normal Chakra. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 22:20, July 3, 2013 (UTC)

Obito as a user
So...i don't where this came from...Madara was the creator of the rods...if the rods were created by Obito, Madara would never have been able to exert his control over then...Darksusanoo (talk) 04:18, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Those rods disappeared when Obito forced Madara's will out of his body. On that chapter, you can see them breaking and falling out. He no longer has those rods in his arm. In the new chapter, you can see him forming them and then firing them out of not one hand, but both, when, by your logic of "they're still Madara's rods", he should only have them in the hand that Madara recreated for him. Now that Obito has the Rinnegan, and the ability to use Yin and Yang, which are suspected to play a role in this technique, plus his dealings with the rods in the past, its not too much of a stretch to say he can make his own now. We, after all, just saw him creating them. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 04:21, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Assuming that is speculation:


 * First...he don't know the specifics of Madara implanting the rods onto Obito...they weren't shown...
 * Second...we know that the rods can be extended and grown...Nagato's Six Paths of Pain, showed that, the Gedo Mazo Statue aswell...none of those are listed as users...
 * Third, when Obito became a jinchuriki, we simply saw the outer rods, and the black matter being purged...a sign of Obito breaking out of Madara's control...doesn't mean he destroyed them completely and them simply started to produce his own...

All in all, we don't have enough knowledge to support your claim. Darksusanoo (talk) 04:28, August 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * Don't twist facts. We saw Madara's rods in his arm breaking (they only came out of one arm, Dark. The arm that Madara recreated.) Then we see him in this chapter creating new ones, and focusing his will through them to remotely activate a technique. That is what we know. He is listed. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 04:42, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * You're the one doing the twisting...this technique refers to Madara making the rods and using them to control people...what Obito did, was no different from what we saw Nagato do multiple times...channeling chakra/techniques through the rods...the will bit..given our current knowledge only allows control over another individual...what was shown in this chapter can easily be marked as the rods already present on his body...also stop with that Hokage's decree atittude, and just assume you're right...discussions exist for that reason. Darksusanoo (talk) 04:51, August 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * I only say what needs to be said. Facts are facts. The rods that Madara was using to control Obito broke. off. They're gone. Poof. No more. Shards on the ground. Furthermore, he only had those rods in one arm. The arm that turned black when Madara tried to control him, which is also the same arm he had recreated. During this technique, he created the rods out of both arms, despite the fact that your theory would require him to fire them only out of the arm he supposedly has stocked (do you realize how absurd that sounds?) with rods. That is what we know. The old rods broke and fell out. These are new rods he is creating out of two hands with his own chakra. Anything more is speculation. Madara was the original user, and now Obito is the second. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 05:04, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Note. They ony come out of Madara's "Zetsu" created arm. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 05:13, August 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * Actually, when he uses it for his barrier technique, they come out of both arms. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 05:22, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Again @Fox, you keep talking as if you're the king of facts and anyone against that is a speculator...we saw the outer parts of the rods breaking off...we. do. not. know...if they dissapereared completely...unless Obito suddenly manages to stab someone with the rods and cover them in black goo...this technique has nothing to do with Obito, and what he did was the normal capabilities of the rods...Darksusanoo (talk) 05:27, August 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * So, let me get this straight. Your theory is that the rods regrew out of the ones that broke off and fell. out. They fell out. They fell out. And now he's just reusing those? You see him create them right out of his hands. Plural. Both hands. Not just the hand they were originally implanted in. Secondly, other than Madara, and now Obito, we've never seen someone use a technique through the chakra receivers. No one. Nagato channeled his chakra to control bodies through them, but Obito not only created the rods, he also used a technique through them. Hence, he willed a technique to activate through the rods. I don't pretend to be the king of facts. I say, "Here is what we saw in this chapter" and, if necessary, "it correlates to this scene from another chapter". If you have to use guesses, which you have, as one of your theories begins with the words "We don't know", which is the very definition of speculation, then yes, you are speculating, while I am just regurgitating information directly from the chapter itself. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 05:34, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

Where did the idea that Madara was the creator of ALL the rods come from, anyway? All Madara said was that black zetsu and the rods on the demonic statue was his made from his will, not that all of them were. Not to mention he said he would teach Obito yin-yang release techniques, and that this was the first one he taught him. I don't understand why people are so adamant he's the only one that can use it. You guys really think that Madara premade all those variants for Obito to use? MangekyoSasuke (talk) 06:02, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

Ok, let me get this straight. Are you telling me that the wide arc drawing animation thingy was Obito using two hands?? If it was two hands, there would be no need for it to be drawn over his entire body. That would make no sense, TTF. It implies something moving in all direction. In this case, one of his arms. And on that note, we only saw the rod studs come out of the Zetsu-half of his body, did we not? Furthermore, the ability is described as its name Will-Materialisation. The rods could be a sign if you want to believe that, but just as Dark Sus. said, he isn't materialising his will, he is only generating, not creating, the receivers. The most we should do here is add this occurrence into the chakra receiver's page. That's it. --Gosh, you've got me rambling again..... KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 07:54, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

First...you have zero proof of that...why...the image only shows the rods being fired from Obito's right hand...in page 9 of the chapter...you see one hand firing the rods...one hand...one..., so i can't understand were you got the idea that he's using both...also, when a user of the receivers uses the rods, he protudes then from his body and breaks them off...Nagato's Paths did that...what was broken was the outer bits of the rods...the rods inside Obito's body still remain...lastly, @Fox, i don't use guess, i say that the information you present is faulty...and you're not regurgitating information from the chapter, you're imaging a secondary hand for Obito using the technique to fit your theory, which we... do. not. see...your reasons to make Obito a user of the technique is straight up speculation...Darksusanoo (talk) 13:16, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Bump.Darksusanoo (talk) 13:17, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

We know so little about the rods but at the same time a lot that 10 people will have 10 opinions on their workings, origin etc. It's all confusing--Elveonora (talk) 13:23, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

Obito is using the chakra receivers, but I don't see him materialising his will at any moment. He has created more receivers, as we've seen him do in the past, and is channelling a technique through it, which we've also seen in the past. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:06, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Bump. Darksusanoo (talk) 22:08, August 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * There's no reason to bump this twice in 1 day. As for the conversation, I say he doesn't materialise his will or whatever from the receivers. Instead, he he just does the same thing Nagato did, which was sending his chakra into the receivers. Joshbl  56  00:50, August 19, 2013 (UTC)

I'm for a removal too until wee see stuff directly forming from his will into form. Those rods he threw could have easily been already in his body--Elveonora (talk) 12:10, August 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well since most of the users here are for a removal, will someone please remove the block on the page, to make the proper edits? Darksusanoo (talk) 23:33, August 20, 2013 (UTC)
 * I second that--Elveonora (talk) 23:49, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

Obito as a user — Part II
As mentioned here, and after proper re-reading, I noticed it too; When Obito creates the black bars, he does so out of his black orbs. If you go and re-read the chapter, right when he points his palm to prepare the barrier, the orb lights on fire; the same chakra fire that is around the chakra receivers. We need to seriously discuss this more. I still say Obito's a user, especially after seeing that, and it appears a few more people agree with me now. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 15:30, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Edit: The specific part of the chapter I'm talking about is page 13 on the Manga Stream version. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 15:36, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Noticed that today and I no longer disagree. Those rods were likely made by Obito himself--Elveonora (talk) 15:44, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry to have go against the grain here, again, but i still have to disagree. The pointsi'd like to make:


 * Like before,the rods only came out of the Zetsu arm, which we know were installed by Madara prior.
 * The rods were flaming due to the jutsu that was flowed into them, which we've seen before (i.e. chakra chains).
 * And, assuming that the flaming orb hints to "Will Materialisation" is, by definition, purely speculated. We dont know why the orb was flaming. It could simply be that this technique is unique to his transformation. (Well, despite the similarity to the hokage's technique)
 * So yea, with these points i've made, it is practically illegal to add Obito as a user. I heavily doubt that he'll ever use this. Generating chakra receivers, jutsu being channeled through them; we've seen it all before. But on that note, you guys have to realise that materialsing your will is the creation of the receivers, not the generation of them. It was also used to create sentient life. When Obito does either of those things, then you have a clear argument with something strong to base your assumption on, but for now there is not concrete foundation for it. Only speculation. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 15:59, August 22, 2013 (UTC)


 * Actually, no, your points don't show anything. In fact, all it does is rehash the old arguments, which were just proven null and void by the chapter itself. The orb glowed, a hole opened up in Obito's arms, and the same glow was around the chakra receivers. Now you're the one grasping at straws here. He created chakra receivers with his own power and we've all witnessed it. To suggest that the same chakra that was around the orb, which is also around the chakra receivers in the same panel, is just some freak coincidence is "crack-pot" theorism. Besides, most everyone on the other talk page, including Cerez I might add (considering his word apparently carries a lot of weight around here >.>) admits that it has to be this technique. Sorry, Koto Senju, but your points make no sense, or are of little relevance to what is actually going on in that scene. Which arm he uses makes no difference. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 16:04, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

Actually Koto, the consensus is that those rods originate from Ten-Tails and weren't created but rather a few of them imbued with Madara's will. It also makes sense, Outer Path controls Black Rods coming from "Demonic Statue of Outer Path"--Elveonora (talk) 16:11, August 22, 2013 (UTC)


 * It would then, also make sense that Obito could create them himself, as he is the jinchūriki of the Ten-Tails and is using its power to do so, hence why the orbs are involved in the process. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 16:17, August 22, 2013 (UTC)


 * Ok, I believed your argument to be based on his creation of the receivers. But, for argument's sake, let just say that is true. How does that tell us that Obito materialised his will in any way? Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 16:27, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * So shouldn't we list Ten-Tails Chakra Weapons as a parent to Black Receiver? But I'm not sure if a technique can be listed a parent to a tool 0_o also we must add the Ten-Tails a user as well if that's so. @Koto, he didn't, Madara is a sole user.--Elveonora (talk) 16:29, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

Ok, it looks like we may have a little misunderstanding here--Elveonora (talk) 16:31, August 22, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well to address that point Elveo, we could either make the tools a jutsu. Or we could say that they have the ability to create them, in the already existing page. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions

Ok, so let's get shi* straight again:
 * Will Materialisation is Madara imbuing objects/subjects with his will, allowing him to take over.
 * Black Receiver originates from the Ten-Tails and is related to Ten-Tails Chakra Weapons and as such, Obito isn't a user of the former and the Ten-Tails is a user of the latter which should be renamed if that's the case--Elveonora (talk) 16:35, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * I second that. In no way how is Obito materialising his will. But a previous consensus, he is only creating the receivers. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 16:42, August 22, 2013 (UTC)


 * So, do we have two separate techniques here, or one? Or, is it just two uses of the same technique? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 16:44, August 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * I would like to think that we have two separate technique's here. It's just that Obito is only creating the receivers, an ability granted by the Ten-Tails. He's not imbue his will into anything. He's only channeling his jutsu. Any revisions should probably be made to the Chakra Receiver's page, if anything. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions

Changes to Ten-Tails, Chakra Receiver and Obito's article are needed and perhaps elsewhere as well.--Elveonora (talk) 16:53, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. I think it's all the same technique, but on different levels. I think Obito (and therefore, Madara) had prior knowledge of this technique before, yet to use it at obito's level, one needs the massive amount of chakra that is the ten tails. The ten tails chakra weapons were never said to originate from it in the first place, and the fact that its yin yang release makes it more likely to be a rinnegan/sharingan+wood release technique, rather than a power that any jinchuuriki of the ten tails could use. Also, will materialization is the name we gave it, and we seem to be rationalizing how the technique works based on said name. With this new information, we should be rethinking how exactly this technique works. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 16:25, August 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree. I just re-read the flashback chapter in which Madara "created" the black rods. He says the following, "These black rods are my will, made physical in form." The black rods are the user manifesting their will. So, Obito creating it is a manifestation of their will. That can no longer be disputed. It seems that just making the rods are a form of Will Materialization. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 16:38, August 24, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the whole "Obito is a user" debate, but I want to point that he creates these rods from his black orbs, which are Yin–Yang Release. Thus rods are Yin–Yang in nature. Thus the whole earlier discussion is answered - will materialisation is Yin–Yang Release and Black Zetsu was created with it.Faust-RSI (talk) 11:47, September 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * What have Obito's rods to do with Madara's stakes? Seelentau 愛議 11:51, September 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's all same Yin-Yang.Faust-RSI (talk) 15:08, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

The latest chapter proved WM is Yin-Yang, as Obito created his orb and staff from the part of Black Zetsu's body, the page should be changed accordingly.Faust-RSI (talk) 15:08, February 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * While I have always agreed that WM is Yin-Yang, Obito did not create it from BZ's body. That part merely receded when Obito created the staff. He was obviously channelling the chakra from Madara. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:27, February 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Look at the orb formation's very first frame. The small orb is of exact size of the empty circle in BZ's body.Faust-RSI (talk) 16:06, February 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes but look before that BZ's body is already receding past his hand he's obviously channeling it from Madara and the juubi Riptide240 (talk) 16:36, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

A hole always appears on the users' hands when they use the sphere for anything. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:27, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Black Zetsu as an user
Someone can clarify to me why the page lists him as an user? As far as I can understand, regardless of whoever's will he is supposed to be represent, he is still just the final product of the technique, not the user. Shadow Abyss (talk) 14:50, June 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree. Since he was Kaguya's will, getting himself merged with Madara isn't really a manifestation of his own will--Elveonora (talk) 15:06, June 6, 2014 (UTC)

Bumpity. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:34, July 17, 2014 (UTC)

does Madara still count as a user?
While Madara claimed to create Black Zetsu, in the end, it was actually Kaguya's will, right? So did he really use the technique or did Kaguya use it through him?--Deathmailrock (talk) 19:32, June 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * He clearly used it on Obito.--JOA20 (talk) 19:35, June 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * We don't know why or how was BZ Kaguya's will. But he was clearly Madara's as well--Elveonora (talk) 19:46, June 17, 2014 (UTC)

It actually showed that Madara wasn't a user, he just thought he was a user (he was tricked into believing that he was a user; Madara was basically manipulated into believing that he was a user. Also, Black Zetsu was created from this technique, he wasn't a user himself; he was able to merge with others, but it wasn't Will Materialization.--Deathmailrock (talk) 22:00, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

Merging with the COAT Technique?
It might not be so far fetched at this point. Look at all this stuff Kaguya had done. Edit: I also am in favor of us removing Madara's usage and simply posting his "usage" on his article's abilities section.--Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 07:07, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Same. He never really did it. This chapter clarified everything. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 07:09, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * You too agree with the merger? -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 07:11, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except Creation of All Things, you know...made the Ten-Tails. Even if Madara never used it, the fact that Black Zetsu is Kaguya's will (or child as he prefers) tells that this is something though.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 07:21, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Simply put, the TT was made by Kaguya using it and split by Hago using it. "Will" has always been an abstract word that we used as a substitute when this ability debuted to avoid confusion. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 07:24, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * And since Madara would be removed, so would Black Zetsu by extension. We could just list his actions within his abilities section as well. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 13:37, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

If we do get rid of this article, then what would be done about the chakra receivers in the Mazo? They were also made from the will of Madara (Kaguya?), but they certainly don't have any life breathed into their form.--BeyondRed (talk) 16:19, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, no, no, my friend. The chakra receivers dont have bearing on the merge. We would:
 * Remove Madara and B.Zetsu as a user and list his actions within their abilities section.
 * List Kaguya as a Banbutsu Sōzō user
 * Say that Both Bl.Zetsu and the SHinju were created using the B. Sozo -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 16:24, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

EDIT CONFLICT:I'd like more opinions on the matter, please. Discussion topic tend to go cold very quickly.--Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 22:05, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

But this technique does seem separate from the creation of all things, so maybe it should be kept as it's own article, like how the rasengan had it's own variations and stuff--Deathmailrock (talk) 22:03, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * How do you mean?--Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 22:06, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

As much as it pains me... *bump* -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 13:36, June 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * No to everything. Simply because lack of information. • Seelentau 愛 議 14:13, June 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * This. Not to mention Madara actually used this when he forced Obito to use Rinne Tensei, BZ-like goo enveloped him. Also to me it seems that Will Materialisation and Chakra Receiver Manifestation are one and the same, not sure why are they separate and why is the latter stated to be Rinnegan tech--Elveonora (talk) 14:43, June 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmm. I guess no more can be said about Kaguya until we get those transaltions. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 15:06, June 21, 2014 (UTC)

Something doesn't fit
And it's not my new shirt. It's how Madara was able to control Obito twice and create the black rods, when the will he gave White Zetsu was actually Black Zetsu who made Madara think he'd materialise his own will. If Black Zetsu is Kaguya's will, wouldn't the will Madara materialised as the rods and on Obito some kind of another Black Zetsu? • Seelentau 愛 議 12:38, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Just because Black Zetsu was the direct result of Madara pumping Will-Goo into White Zetsu, doesn't mean he actually didn't pump Will-Goo into all the other Zetsu he had control over, and while we don't know the exact specifics, what we are shown you can either make an entire Black Zetsu, or just manipulate the your Will in other things/people/stuffs.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:55, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * He didn't pump it into the Zetsu, he coated him. You can even see how he forms a new leg out of the black mass. I'm thinking that Madara can materialise his will, too, but not making it a sentient life form (maybe because of his downgraded Rinnegan). And Kuro Zetsu simply added himself to Madara's will. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:11, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Of course he can, why would you think otherwise? Black Zetsu managed to fool Madara exactly because Madara thought he did something that he could do, if Madara couldn't materialize his will, he wouldn't have gotten the idea. And yes, Madara's will (rods and bz-like cloak) do not seem to be conscious. Perhaps his is just Yin Release, while Kaguya's YYR. Also it's not a Rinnegan tech--Elveonora (talk) 14:08, July 11, 2014 (UTC)