Talk:Zetsu

Separation
I think after the latest chapter we should discuss the separation of the article (to Black Zetsu and White Zetsu) again. Black Zetsu is revealed to be completely different essence than White Zetsu, he is Madara's clone created via Onmyōton while White Zetsu is Hashirama's clone created via Mokuton. They have different personalities and origins, their only common thing is ability to merge into one body.Faust-RSI (talk) 15:40, October 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * If Madara never separated them, why should we? --Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:47, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

@Cerez, the white was there before the black has been created, thus we should do some kind of separation in their article at least, like Kamui has (Kakashi/Obito)--Elveonora (talk) 15:56, October 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * Ukon was born before Sakon, yet their articles aren't separated are they? I'm against separating their articles because the two operate as a single being most of the time. The information in the article isn't overbearing or confusing so I don't see the need to separate the information. Also Faust-RSI, all the clones were created using Yin-Yang Release from what I understand: one from the statue the other from the clone, it's just that White Zetsu was created first, there is no difference between the two. I really don't see one good reason to separate the articles, simply because they can split themselves. In that case we should create one for Mū's "clone".--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 16:05, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

Well, meant separate background/personality/abilities/other stuff sections, not 2 articles for them--Elveonora (talk) 16:09, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

Since they work as a single entity most of the time, it might be best to keep the sections on their background and role in the story as a single section. The same goes for their appearance, since splitting them would basically mean describing a lot of the same things twice. Their abilities, however, may be a different story. Other than Mayfly, which all of their kind can use, the two haven't really displayed any shared abilities. Their abilities section could be split into two the way most articles are split into sections for nature transformation, kekkei genkai, etc.--BeyondRed (talk) 18:08, October 17, 2012 (UTC)


 * Would this work for a reorganised version of the abilities section?--BeyondRed (talk) 21:08, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

I think that's how it should be, but also a separate background since their "birth" differ--Elveonora (talk) 23:56, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

1. Yes, Madara never separated them, though this is irrelevant, all of the most important, final arc, they were separated. 2. Ukon and Sakon never acted as separate entities, yet BZ and WZ did. Also, their significance is incomparable with that of Zetsu. 3. It was never mentioned WZ was created using Yin-Yang Release, moreover, it is strongly implied it has Yang release only, as seen when Zetsus abnormally react to Naruto's chakra. Moreover, WZ is Hashi's clone, while BZ is basically Madara, I don't know why you ignore that. And this is HUGE difference. I don't see how it is even possible to compare them to Muu's jutsu.Faust-RSI (talk) 05:45, October 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * In the most recent chapter, Madara told Obito that the beings created through Yin-Yang Release could be used as his pawns, implying that it was used to create the white clones as well. As for completely splitting the article, it could lead to problems on other pages; mentions of Zetsu acting as a single entity on other pages would have to link to one side or the other. Black Zetsu's creation can be explained within a single sentence and he remained merged with White Zetsu for a while after that, so their background section works fine as it is, although the part about Black Zetsu's creation is currently out of order. The abilities section could definitely be separated though, as previously mentioned.--BeyondRed (talk) 06:57, October 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * Sakon and Ukon have acted independently, they've split up as well.
 * How much significance a character holds for you is insignificant to the discussion, and not a valid reason. We're supposed to be neutral.
 * The Zetsu clones were all created from Yin-Yang Release. They react poorly to Naruto full-on Yang-natured chakra because of their genetic makeup. They're vegetation, the Yang-natured chakra is simply activating them. What is happening to them is no different than Danzō's arm turning into a tree.
 * I'm not ignoring anything. You seem however to be willing to just look past the fact that they're a single entity, that just happen to be able to split and act independently to split their articles for no good reason.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 10:59, October 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * They have, for one battle, hundreds chapter ago. Zetsus did this recently in the most important chapters of this manga. Sakon's and Ukon's significance is almost zero, BZ and WZ have connections to all the most important events of this manga. So no, it is not my personal opinion in any way, it is what this manga shows us thus your comment is no relevant and makes no sense.


 * My mistake, they did, though one clearly represents Uchiha and Yin while other Senju and Yang. Though this is not the point. The point is that WZ is Hashirama's clone while BZ is not.
 * They are not single entity in any way, did you miss the part where WZ was existing for-hell-knows-how-long before BZ was even born? Being able to merge don't make them one. There are more characters that are able to merge, but only Sakon and Ukon share the article, even bijuus have their own pages.Faust-RSI (talk) 19:14, October 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm also for a split in the articles. As far as Zetsu is concerned, Black Zetsu and White Zetsu were created for two completely different purposes using two completely different methods, Black Zetsu has been shown to do things that White Zetsu cannot, they aren't as dependent of each other as we originally thought either. They have different personalities, backgrounds, that kind of thing. Comparing them to Sakon and Ukon is not even applicable. Both White and Black Zetsu have spent a considerable amount of time separate (all the time before Black Zetsu was born, and during most of this Shinobi World War arc). While Sakon and Ukon were shown to separate, we don't know anything about their pasts, or what they're like when they are apart for significant amounts of time. Furthermore, we don't know if they have the exact same abilities, or have different abilities than each other. We do know all these things about the two Zetsu. If, at some point, we learn all of this about Sakon and Ukon, I'd be for splitting them too, but in this case, I think a split is necessary. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 20:38, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * They've spent more chronological time together, but as far as on-panel, shown time goes, they haven't separated for that much time, and they didn't do much by themselves after splitting. And even considering the things that they did do after splitting, they spend much more time staying put than actually doing stuff. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:02, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Regardless, we have more than enough material to classify them as separate characters. I find it extremely unnecessary to lump them all together when we have so much unique information on their individual selves. They aren't even collectively referred to as "Zetsu" anymore. They haven't been since earlier in Shippuden. They've been referred to as Black Zetsu and White Zetsu for quite some time. I think we have enough to warrant two articles. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:15, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * Edit: Also, should we decide to split them, we could make "Zetsu" a disambiguation to link to all the different Zetsu incarnations, since the term "Zetsu" now applies to Black and White Zetsu, Spiral Zetsu, the White Zetsu Army, and the like. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:19, October 27, 2012 (UTC)

There is no need to split Zetsu. Up until this current arc, there was only Zetsu, with Black and White personality. Them separating into two physical forms. As mentioned before, that would be like separating Sakon and Ukon which would result in two articles with the exact same information for the majority of the page.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 21:52, October 27, 2012 (UTC)
 * No, Ultimate, there would not. For Sakon and Ukon, that might be the case, but regarding the two Zetsu, there are ample amounts of information amount both to give them completely unique articles. Black and White Zetsu, as a single entity, didn't make too many appearances before this arc. Their plot sections prior to the Five Kage Summit arc is mediocre at best. Its not like they made a ton of appearances as one being. I'm sorry, but, given the unique nature of their creation, the fact that they were created separately, have different personalities, different purposes, and even, in some cases, different abilities, makes it perfectly legitimate. White Zetsu is even dead, at this point. So you're telling me we're gonna keep adding stuff for just Black Zetsu now to this article? Makes no sense. For the last two or three arcs they haven't been merged. At all. There is no legitimate reason to keep them together. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 00:23, October 28, 2012 (UTC)

Separation is the most logical thing to do, I don't see why some people disagree.--Elveonora (talk) 01:27, October 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * I have created two sandboxes; Black Zetsu and White Zetsu. That should serve to demonstrate how different each article can be. It has different information specific to that Zetsu, illustrates their ability differences, even their plot section focuses solely on their actions when they act alone. The only thing that is exactly the same on both articles is the "Creation and Conception" and the "Trivia". Even the quotes are different. I believe this proves we can make them unique articles. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 04:08, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * Good work, I'm all for making those sandbox articles into the ground for the separate BZ and WZ articles. The only arguments opponents have all sound like "I'm too lazy to do this, this is too much work, let's better do nothing", sorry, but this is how it looks like Faust-RSI (talk) 11:31, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm gonna wait for one more person to chime in and then we'll go from there. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:52, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * I still don't see the benefit from splitting the article. Even the databook didn't bother splitting the profile between WZ and BZ. I don't see the cost/benefit in doing the split. Besides, changing all the links to BZ and WZ isn't something that can simply be done with a bot. The article as is is perfectly capable of informing everything there is to know about Zetsu, B&W. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:09, October 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * The databooks have nothing to do with this. When the last databook came out, Zetsu had not been split up for two arcs. You can bet the next databook will have them separated, as it has now been revealed that they have different origins and different purposes. As the sandboxes I created show, they even have different abilities and Black Zetsu is more of a fighter, while White Zetsu, as Obito mentioned, is not a "front line" fighter. They're different in numerous ways. They even have different personalities. As I said before, if Sakon and Ukon had displayed this many differences and this much independence from one another, as Black and White Zetsu have, I'd be asking for them to split too. If its really just the links you're worried about, there are editors that are more than willing to do that. But really, I and others see it as a necessity. They're too different to keep on the same article. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:16, October 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * There is no benefit in splitting the pages. You say it is nothing like Sakon and Ukon, but fail to say how it is so. For the overwhelming majority of the series there has only been Zetsu. Hell, even splitting they've done nothing that warrants the articles being split. There is nothing that requires this page to be split.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:27, October 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * Hell, even your proposal pages feed into my argument. Both the articles are practically the same.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:30, October 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * I told you how it was different from Sakon and Ukon. Sakon and Ukon appeared for less than half an arc. There is no information on their background, they have the exact same abilities and even similar personalities. Not the case here with these two. Funny, because if you look up, you'll see these explanations two or three times. Secondly, yes there is everything to requite these pages being split. They have different personalities, different origins, different purposes, different abilities, and besides that, the only argument we seem to be getting from you, just like with the Obito and Tobi split, is "its too much work". Also, looking back over my proposals, I see numerous differences, particularly in the background and abilities sections, as well as towards the arcs in which they become more prominent as separate characters. They're two completely different people. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:38, October 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * And their articles will be get this 80% the same (yes I pulled a number out my bum). Look at the current article and the two proposals you wrote up. At most the only noticeable difference is they are separate (obviously) and alot of uses of "both Zetsu". There is no logical reason to split a page if the information is just go in to be repeated in another with 1 or 2 words changed in a attempt to make it different. There is nothing wrong with the current set up, and splitting them will cause more problems than solve because there was nothing to solve.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:44, October 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * logic full of win, White&Black Zetsu have a single common article, while "Spiral Zetsu" has his own. We either include all "Zetsus" in one or keep each separated if different enough--Elveonora (talk) 19:04, October 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * Completely agreed. Sorry, Ultimate, but your logic makes zero sense. There is ample material to make two separate articles and there should be two separate articles. They are two unique characters and, especially now, with White Zetsu dead and their inability to rejoin, its important that we emphasize the differences in their characters. My sandboxes were just examples of how it could be done. Once we actually get to doing it, the final result will be much different than those sandboxes. Unless you can give us all a reason other than "too much work" or Sakon and Ukon, which aren't even comparable cases, then you really have no basis for stopping the split of the article. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 19:19, October 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * Spiral Zetsu for most of the series didn't exist, and other than a common origin, shares nothing with the B&W Zetsu. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:21, October 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * Omni is correct on Spiral Zetsu. Save common origin, nothing is similar and his page ends where it does. No matter how you say it, the information will be the same, if only different because it was worded differently to make it different. You can ignore it all you want, but to split a page into two when most of the information will be similar is pointless.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 19:29, October 28, 2012 (UTC)

TheUltimate3, you are completely unfair to the sandbox articles. They are only examples, and they were created by one man, he did it all alone. You can't demand perfection from them, the good content will be created by the community. Developing those pages will obviously drop your "80%" down. But they will never be 100% different, though only few articles here have 100% unique content, you can't avoid interdependencies among different characters.Faust-RSI (talk) 09:03, October 29, 2012 (UTC)

I don't really think they require seperate articles as most of the information is just going to be repeated.—

I can't believe we're still on this though. Browsing through the sandboxes I see no difference between the two articles. The people for the split are basing it on the simple premises that "they were created separately/differently" which I think is utter rubbish. If he was created with his own body and not poured into White Zetsu, you guys would have a more substantial argument from my perspective. Have White and Black Zetsu even done enough apart to be considered separate entities? ...no they have not: we'd have one paragraph saying they did x and then everything will be the same- that is not ample amount of information to split an article. The hassle of having to do that and then simply transcribing the information to another article is ludicrous.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 12:25, October 29, 2012 (UTC)

Madara Uchiha
Shouldn't Madara Uchiha be put as Creator in the Family? Or the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path? Since we are including others in Zetsu's family branch50.9.79.129 (talk) 19:10, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

"father" ? :O--Elveonora (talk) 00:35, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

I was thinking the same thing. Though something besides 'father'... lol Skarrj (talk) 09:12, October 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * Clones don't usually get relations to people, the living clone is still its genetic source at least physically. What would be put there anyway, "will giver"? It's not really necessary to draw a line to Madara in this case.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 10:36, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Abilities
As with the newest manga, Dream World 606, Black Zetsu is a portion of Madara's will. In the abilities section it says black zetsu has the ability to record things such as battles and 'show' these recordings to Tobi. In manga 604 White zetsu says he can telepathically communicate with his clones. I'm not sure if this is evidence enough but it's apparent to me at least that black zetsu is watching the battles, gives the memory to White zetsu (because they are able to share a body) and White Zetsu transmits the memory to the part of Tobi's body that was made from Hashirama's cells.
 * Or maybe Obito uses the Sharingan to view the memories. It's all speculation either way. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:51, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Quotes.
The quote section seems a little.. Uneven? Considering White Zetsu is the one with a mouth, there isn't much quotes coming from him. Just an observation. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 05:21, October 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * He doesn't usually say anything quote-worthy. You're also assuming that Black Zetsu doesn't have a mouth...--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 10:34, October 30, 2012 (UTC)

Semi-offtopic, but just to clarify... BlackZetsu has a mouth/tongue/teeth, it could be seen on a chapter cover I think--Elveonora (talk) 23:20, October 30, 2012 (UTC)
 * He does not. Which is possibly why they have to fuse to feed. Even the need (i'm assuming it's a need and not because it amuses them) to feed seems to stem from Black Zetsu based on what White and Spiral Zetsu have said. Just another reason their articles shouldn't be separated, though that's just my speculation. On a side note though, I love that chapter cover.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 11:31, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't think he was talking about a mouth in a literal manner, though I could be wrong. In general, White Zetsu is the more mouthy individual than Black Zetsu. That's what he meant. Also, Cerez, doesn't the fact that Black Zetsu needs to feed while White Zetsu does not only further to illustrate their differences? Hmmmm. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 15:36, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * My point was leaning towards the possibility that one cannot survive without the other. Still speculation on my part.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 01:57, November 1, 2012 (UTC)

No, I wasn't talking in the literal sense. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 04:56, November 3, 2012 (UTC)

order of apearance
Wasnt White Zetsu killed by Sasuke before Chojuro killed Black Zetsu? i remember WZ's death was before ET Madara showed up, wheras Chojuro killed BZ around when Madara was fighting the kages.--RexGodwin (talk) 22:55, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

After--Elveonora (talk) 23:04, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

I checked, you are wrong. | Sasuke incincerated WZ in chapter 553, |and Chojuro killed BZ in 562.--RexGodwin (talk) 23:26, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

Cool, glad you answered your own question. Why is it relevant again?--Elveonora (talk) 23:29, February 5, 2013 (UTC)

A bit confused
There is something that i'm a bit uncertain about, and can't really get a clear answer from the article so here goes. White Zetsu was made from Hashirama Senju's DNA, therefor it can use wood release, that´s certain. Was Black Zetsu then made from Madara Uchiha DNA (since he created it) or what? and can Black then still use wood release? --Kasan94 (talk) 20:42, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

Black Zetsu was made by using a technique similar to the Sage of Six paths. Basically he was made from nothing and added to the original White Zetsu. He can use Wood Release as shown when he fought Naruto and Chojuro along with his communicating via roots with his other half. If he does have DNA, it would likely also be a copy of Hashirama's. On that note, he is more robot like, having that sort of voice and seemingly the ability to record fights in his head. He is Zetsu, but not, if that makes any sense. If White Zetsu is a clone of Hashirama with a goofy persona, I'd hazard to say Black Zetsu is a robot built in a more serious image. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 21:25, May 30, 2013 (UTC)

Dare me to say this, but Black Zetsu is to White Zetsu what Tailed Beasts are to Ten-Tails.--Elveonora (talk) 21:40, May 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot! So Madara is just the creator, and part from that have nothing with Black Zetsu. --Kasan94 (talk) 12:23, May 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, Black Zetsu is a "copy" of Madara in a spiritual sense, not biological. His "will" embodied.--Elveonora (talk) 12:35, May 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * Will and Memories, don't forget Black Zetsu has knowledge on many things White Zetsu and the others didn't.VlenFlyheight (talk) 12:39, May 31, 2013 (UTC)

SuperVibrato and Samehada
Ok, so I was rewatching the Kisame vs Killer Bee fight, and I had the funniest thought. Although im good and ready to add this, but Zetsu is a user of the Supervibrato Lightning Release Swords and Samehada. Why? In that fight, not only did Samehada respond to him, but Zetsu's clone also wielded the blade. As for the Vibrato Swords, the clone also wielded them and even attempted to attack Killer Bee with them. All of this is support enough to add him as a wielder. JaZZBaND (talk) 01:55, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

Zetsu and Wood Release
Ok people, we've been doing these discussions for a while and we've been getting nowhere...the thing is...Zetsu is dead, soo i'm not expecting to have much more info on the guy and his skills. So here's the thing: the guy and it's brothers are living Wood Release creations...they are the KKG given life...they turn into trees when they die. As such there are several techniques displayed by Zetsu that should be remarked as Wood Release:
 * Mayfly: a tehcnique where the guy not only can merge with the ground and trees but travel through it using underground networks of roots...all wood/plant related.
 * Mayfly Communication Technique: a technique that allow communication by connection to networks of underground roots...again, wood/plant related.
 * Spore Technique: Do i really need to spell it? A technique where one uses spores, a plant-related object to grow into full blown creatures, much like plant spores travel around and grow from place to place?

All of these 3 techniques are completely wood/plant related and only the Wood Release can manifest this kinda of stuff. Now for the Parasite Clone, the body spliting technique and the Substitute technique, i'm willing to let that slide, even though chakra absorption is another WR component.

This is starting to affect other pages, to the point where we listed Madara as the user of a similar technique as the Mayfly and billed it as Wood Release in his abilities section when it's not WR related at all. I'm asking to break this standstill and do the necessary changes. Darksusanoo (talk) 23:53, June 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * You've got my vote. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 01:04, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * My vote too. Lets see what older contributors and admin have to say. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 01:41, June 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * This is not about a vote. That's not how information is found out around here. Its about what the correct information is. Truthfully, there is no concrete evidence that Mayfly, and its associated techniques, are Wood Release. Similar techniques have appeared that are, actually Earth Release. Examples being; Earth Release: Hiding Like a Mole Technique, Earth Release: Subterranean Voyage, Earth Release: Underground Projection Fish Technique, and Earth Release: Double Suicide Decapitation Technique. Communication through roots is also not evidence of Wood Release. Until a databook says otherwise, we are leaving the classifications ambiguous because the truth is, we don't know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is Wood Release. Furthermore, just because Zetsu was made with Hashirama's cells doesn't mean all of his techniques are Wood. Wood is made of Earth and Water, so it is just as plausible that Mayfly and its associates are Earth. Until confirmation, or some more evidence, they stay how they are. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 04:26, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Your right it's not about voting...it's about interpreting the information....Earth Release manipulates earth in it's various forms...Water Release manipulates water...Wood Release manipulates wood/plant life...soo traveling and communicating through roots, which are plant life, certainly counts, and also the spore technique, since spores are also plant-related. And none of the techniques you've mentioned have the traveling range nor the speed of Mayfly, and with some of them you can only use the ground not trees...yes, not all of his techniques have to be Wood Release, hence why i only mentioned 3 specific ones. And it's not your decision if things stay how they are, it's one of consensus, unless contradictory evidence appears to contradict it...plus we have classified stuff on lesser ground than this... Darksusanoo (talk) 04:41, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with fox. Lets not jump to conclusions since we've only seen Zetsu use this skill. For all we know this could be an exclusive skill that only Zetsu can use. Joshbl56  05:04, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

@Darksusanoo: Unfortunately, in this case, its not about consensus. Its about what information is presented in the series, and nothing, I repeat, nothing, gives any of us concrete evidence that the three techniques you mentioned were Wood Release. Nothing. Speculation and your personal interpretations do, but we do not put such things to a vote and then add such information on that. We only add information when a reasonable conclusion can be made or when it is flat out stated, not when a user wants to present his or her interpretations and wants them added. So yes, it will stay how it is for now. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 05:10, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Which is why i started the discussion to break the standstill...i did not ask for votes and i think you misinterpreted my intentions. And you're the one who's doing the speculation, since you're disregarding one of the Wood Release basic concepts and interpreting that it can't be Wood Release. I did not speculate anything, i interpreted something by following a concept introduced in the series for a fairly early point. If you want to present an actual counter-argument go ahead, since it's the discussion's whole point. Darksusanoo (talk) 05:27, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * When did the ability to transport through roots and flora become a basic concept for Wood Release? Like I said earlier, I think you're jumping to conclusions before the facts have been laid out completely. Why not wait for the next fanbook or later chapters to see if another wood release user uses Mayfly or starts communicating like Zetsu does? Joshbl56  05:33, June 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay, let me clear up a few matters, because you're missing the point. First of all, I doesn't matter to me if the technique(s) is Wood or not. In fact, I never said they weren't. All I am saying is that there is no way to know for sure. They could be Fire Release and I couldn't care less. I do care about facts, however. How do you even know they are elemental techniques? There is no indication. None. Wood Release does not manipulate plants. It manipulates wood, sometimes trees, which are made of wood. The flowering technique of Madara, is because trees produce flowers, but Wood itself doesn't manipulate plant matter. At all. So, it has nothing to do with the "basic concepts of Wood Release". But that is besides the point. Mayfly allows him to phase through wood, earth, and did you forget the concrete of the Uchiha Hideout too? I don't think that is wood, nor did it have roots.


 * We have to get to a point on this wiki where we accept that Kishimoto is going to leave somethings a mystery. Naruto is a story, which means Kishimoto is only concerned with revealing information that will bring the story to a conclusion. What element Mayfly is, is not one of those, so he may never tell us what element Mayfly is, if it even is an elemental technique. Just because someone, in this case Zetsu, dies with mysteries still surrounding them, doesn't mean we can jump on the boat of speculation and just start marking everything he did as Wood Release. It just isn't happening that way. This wiki documents facts. And you have none that prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zetsu's other techniques are Wood Release, therefore they will not be marked as such.


 * That doesn't mean we'll never know. The next databook could very well tell us what Mayfly is, if it is anything. Or, who knows? Maybe Kishi will clear it up in the manga, though I severely doubt it. But that doesn't mean he will, and in the event that he doesn't, then those techniques shall never be classified as elemental techniques, because we simply do not know. There is not enough evidence. None. Its all circumstantial;
 * Mayfly moving through wood and roots is nice when you put it that way, but you forget he used it to move through solid rock, and concrete, both of which possess neither wood nor roots, so that cancels out any evidence you'd have there.
 * The root communication technique is simply Zetsu manipulating his own body, and deals in plant matter, which Wood Release does not manipulate on its own.
 * Again, Wood Release manipulates wood and trees. Trees don't produce spores, they grow from seeds, so again, there is no direct connection.
 * How do you know Zetsu isn't using techniques he developed with the help of his unique body? See how that creates problems and only leads to more speculation to prove and cover up the original speculation? You can't know any of that because nothing so far has explained that to us, so it is all specualtion. So, you cannot make a logical argument that would support it, at this point, without dipping into speculation, which we don't deal with here on the wiki. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 06:35, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

Ten Tails, I will give you mayfly, but no other type of technique in canon has shown to interact with plant matter besides wood release. [] and []
 * In terms of the communication being 'simply Zetsu manipulating his own body" How many times have we seen wood sprout from Yamato? Part of Wood Release is indeed growing stuff from oneself.
 * As for wood release only manipulating wood and trees may I bring up

Like I said, Mayfly I'll give you cause when I first heard of it I actually mistook it for the Attack Prevention Technique, but the other two are almost certainly wood release. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 12:21, June 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * Just to clarify, I'm pretty sure Fox mentioned something about trees growing flowers, hence the flowering world (if it wasn't him/her then I must have read it somewhere else) and I'm not sure what you're trying to show with the wood clone. The seeds? Joshbl56  12:29, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

The seeds are the very thing, though the image illustrates my point of wood users manipulating their own bodies quite well too. But while trees do grow flowers, the point of that technique, Advent of a World of Flowering Trees, is that it's the pollen used to attack. Now unless you're trying to tell me flowers and pollen are exclusive to trees and wood, I think it's obvious that Wood Release's sphere of influence extends into a wider realm of flora than just trees. Spores and seeds etc. are all viable. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 12:37, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

Why should Wood Release manipulate and create just wooden material? that makes no sense. Someone is forgetting that all trees are plants. The gas technique by Madara creates no wooden structure but a tree without wooden skin, it's a poisonous flower. So "it was tree not plant" argument is illogical Fox because trees are plants and the given technique created non-wood related plant even.--Elveonora (talk) 13:06, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

I understand what you mean but we haven't really seen a wood release user just create flora, ie. it has always been connected to a tree. I'm not saying they can't create a simple flower but that we haven't seen them actually do it. Simply saying Just cause they MIGHT be able to do it =/= we should put down that all wood release users can create a field of flowers. But this also goes with the main reason for this section, ie. Just cause Zetsu (a creation of wood release) can use Mayfly =/= Mayfly is a wood release jutsu. For all we know it could just be something that only Zetsu can use. I say we wait for a confirmation from the databook or manga before we call this. Joshbl56 13:31, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

Like I said, I'm not saying call Mayfly wood release because it does bear similarity to other similar techniques, but the communication technique, which is done via roots (which was certainly a tree root when he did it) is almost certainly a wood release. So Ten Tails argument that Plant Matter is somehow different from trees in this context is irrelevant and the idea that it's "simply" manipulating his own body is also irrelevant because we've seen several wood techniques do this. As for the spores, he said wood release manipulates trees and spores come from seeds, so there's not direct connection, but I showed that wood release can also operate flowers, pollen and seeds. So while Mayfly might be something else, the communication technique and the spore technique both share several traits with other documented wood release techniques. Might they be variations that only Zetsu uses, almost certainly, but we know the guy is a clone of Hashirama, so it's not like the other Ice Users we've seen where they don't hold the blood line, and I've already shown why the counter argument on the spores and communication techniques don't work, so at this point, even if they are just unique to Zetsu, these things seem to be genuine Wood Release and the only reason we don't seem to be stating this is out of pure stubbornness. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 14:07, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * I have a doubt here, i don't remember so it's better if i ask someone to enlighten me, when Kabuto kidnapped Yamato, he mentioned that with Yamato he could improve the White Zetsu Army, because with Yamato's Hashirama cells they could use WR right? I'm not sure. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 14:38, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * What are you getting at, how is it relevant? If you suggest that their wood release is only thanks to Yamato, then Black Zetsu says hello--Elveonora (talk) 14:45, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * No, it is only a curiosity of mine. Because if White Zetsu's clones could be made through White Zetsu and do not have WR, maybe Mayfly is not directly related with WR, being only a White Zetsu unique feature (black too) due his nature. My English is not the best but i will try to make my self clear. Zetsu origin from Hashirama's Bunshin cells (Wood), and using Yin-Yang chakra to give form and life through the Gedō Statue, he ended up being a plant-like form of life, gaining the abilities to conect with plant-life forms due is plant properties plus yin-yang chakra (Mayfly and derivatives). Dan.Faulkner (talk) 15:05, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Interesting theory but it's only speculation (and people here are usually pretty hateful towards speculation). Joshbl56  15:15, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Because White Zetsu clones when exposed to Yang chakra, they turn into trees due Hashirama's Wood Bunshin cells, now mix that with Yin chakra, in a exact portion of both Yin and Yang-nature based chakra, you could get a plant (Zetsu), with a unique feature like mayfly. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 15:30, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

The amount of speculation that has gone rampant since I last posted only further proves my point. Until we have a definite answer, or some more  concrete  evidence, we should not touch anything and this proves why. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 16:50, June 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * Also, Hawkeye, on the Zetsu Communication Technique, where he's using his own body. His body is plant matter. He's pretty much a living venus fly trap. When you're body is structured like a plant, producing a root to communicate is just proof that his body can sprout roots. Not that he was, in anyway, using Earth and Water together to make a Wood technique. This is all beyond ludicrous. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 16:52, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

You're right, it is ludicrous. We're willing to list unnamed, non-defined techniques used by other characters under specific releases simply because of who the user is and what the properties of the technique are, but here we have Zetsu, who apparently we have to wait for him to be proven to rip off Hashirama before we'll admit his technique, which has all the hallmarks of being Wood Release, is an actual god damn wood release! Like I said, Mayfly we can't speak for, but the other techniques show traits of no other ability but wood release. It is nothing but pure pig headed stubbornness that we're not listing these abilities. If Zetsu's entire body is plant matter it's because he's born from Hashirama cells, the man is a walking wood release and while I will not say that's justification for all his techniques being wood release, the fact that the techniques I'm referring to show all the traits associated with this advance nature and not earth or water points to the refusal to add them not as caution against inaccurate material, but just being stubborn about it. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 17:30, June 24, 2013 (UTC)


 * First of all, watch your language. Second of all, I've looked at Madara, and all these "unnamed techniques" you claim we're just giving him and listing Wood Release, and I found none. Ziltch. Zero. Nodda. Nothing. So, you need to calm down. We aren't just going to fly off the wall and name everything Zetsu has Wood Release. Wouldn't do it for Yamato, Hashiarma, or Madara. Or anyone for that matter. You need proof. Not circumstantial evidence. Not a wish list. And certainly not your personal feelings and theories. If you can give, not just me, but everyone, cold, hard, real, evidence that any of the techniques you listed are beyond a reasonable doubt, Wood Release, then let's see it, because I haven't heard a single shred of it yet. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:47, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Second of all @Hawkeye, he is not walking WR, he was created from a WR Bunshin with Yin-Yang release, this only proof he is a "Plant-Like" being and not a Wood clone or a Wood made, he isn't pinocchio, he can use Mokuton due to his nature, but he also has his unique traits. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 18:00, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

Wow all three of you, take a chill pill...this is a discussion...it's meant to be discuss the topic, not tear at eachother...@Hawkeye there's no use in bad language, if you want to make a point, do it in an educated way. @Ten Tailed Fox, since this discussion started, you have not done any contribution to it, other than trying to stop it short. You say there is nothing in favor of this, yet there is nothing to deny it, and we've had several characters remarking about Zetsu's nature and connection to the WR. So unless you can present any cold, hard, real contradictory evidence to the claim of this discussion, it will continue as any discussion should be. Any other opinions from other users would also be helpful Darksusanoo (talk) 21:34, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

Why is there even harm listing them as wood release? We can always put there "may contain false information" notice--Elveonora (talk) 21:55, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * The same harm as me putting Hinata as Naruto's Girlfriend and and saying may contain false information this site has always been about proof and we should wait tell kishamoto states otherwise BestKage (talk) 22:17, June 24, 2013 (UTC)Bestkage
 * Dude that comparison is soo cheap and wrong and has nothing to do with the topic being disscussed here. Darksusanoo (talk) 22:22, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the pure comparison but what I was trying to say is that This site always wanted prove and hardcore evidence and by letting something like this slide this site might as well let other none proven topics be listedBestKage (talk) 22:39, June 24, 2013 (UTC)BestKage

And just because something looks like something is not proof or otherwise we would have listed mud based justu as water and earthBestKage (talk) 22:46, June 24, 2013 (UTC)BestKage
 * Hum, and yet stuff like has been done...take the time and read the chapters that talk about the nature of Zetsu, the WR and it's bretheren army and maybe you'll see what i'm trying to get across. Darksusanoo (talk) 22:49, June 24, 2013 (UTC)

Isn't such a bad comparison, after all Naruto and Hinata were holding hands, that is couple behavior. The same goes for Naruto and Sakura, Minato asked if they were a couple and Naruto responded affirmatively. We should reach a agreement, at least wait for more clues pointing that they are WR based techniques. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 22:54, June 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay I read the articles and how wood release creates life which was wood/trees and floral and seeds and I am not saying that's all it does but as far as spore clones go they seem more like just growth or expansions of zetsu's body, choji grows and the mayfly is like what orochimaru (before he got WR) and Kiba's sensie did. I know she did it anime only but we didn't list that as WR. Too many things that are similar to zetsu's justu that are not WR. Lets just wait patiently tell it is proven.BestKage (talk) 23:31, June 24, 2013 (UTC)BestKage

"Wouldn't do it for Yamato, Hashiarma, or Madara." ~ Ten Tailed Fox

Wasn't talking about Madara, who you seemed to take as the focus of my point, oh no, not him.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Wood_Release:_Threefolded_Wood_Shield

Hmm, unnamed, anime only, never stated to actually be Wood Release, but used by Yamato and called a wood release by us because it has the traits of one.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Mayfly_Communication_Technique

Unnamed, anime and manga technique, never stated to be Wood Release, but used by Zetsu, isn't called Wood Release despite having the traits of one.

Methinks there's some hypocrisy in this argument, but I'll be damned if I can find it. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 13:49, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * There are some similarities and there's not. He is a plant, therefore he is able to create roots, there are two possible outcomes. 1: The ability to create roots could be a unique Zetsu's feature, nothing to do with WR. 2: He creates roots through WR, being a Wood Release technique. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 14:01, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Dude, you just agreed with what we've been debating. Here's why WR manipulates floral/wood material. You agreed that Zetsu's is a plant creature...aside from the fact he's a 100% WR creation...as such even if the techniques he uses are unique to him, they can still fall in the larger WR category due what it manipulates and Zetsu's unique nature. Darksusanoo (talk) 15:58, June 25, 2013 (UTC)

Hypocrisy, bias and ignorance present on the internet could be used to feed many for years if they were digestible. It's indeed present even in here, but what can be done about that... everyone is free to have a difference of opinion. On topic; "mayfly communication technique" is clearly a Wood Release. I'm not so sure about Spore Technique. Also right hand obviously has no idea what the left one does, since even Zetsu's article considers it to be Mokutn since it's present under the nature transformation section.--Elveonora (talk) 14:07, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Now looking back at some similar techniques and stuff, I came across with Obito's Wood Release Underground Roots Technique and Zetsu using it as well... So I'll have to admit that my thoughts were maybe wrong, and now I'm more into Mayfly Communication Technique being a WR-based technique. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 16:28, June 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * Wow... that's just about all I can say. This is getting, not only out of hand, but plain ridiculous. The problem with your theory, Hawkeye, is that we've never seen Wood Release manipulate plant matter on its own. Madara's Wood Release: Advent of a World of Flowering Trees causes flowers to sprout from trees, which would be manipulation of the trees themselves, therefore Wood Release. Also, if that is what you're so mad about (the Yamato technique you linked), then this argument is pretty much a done deal. If you actually watch the anime episode that technique appeared in, you can tell its wood, not only from its obvious coloration and features, but also by the way it forms and the sound effects used, which are the same for every Wood technique in the anime. Now, let's put aside foolishness here. In the anime and the manga, when Zetsu uses his roots to communicate, it looks more like a flower root, when there is a wood technique that does virtually the same thing, yet they look nothing alike. Therein lies another misconception of yours. Zetsu isn't living Wood Release. He was made as a clone of Hashirama from Hashirama's DNA, which Madara grew from a giant flower. That doesn't make him Wood Release. In fact, he's more similar to a common daisy, than he is a tree. Manipulating your own body to communicate is never a given for a nature release.


 * As to the spore clones (Spore Technique, Parasite Clone, etc), tell me, if they were Wood Release, wouldn't he just use wood clones? Why create his own type of cloning techniques if he could just use the Wood Release you claim he is already using to use an already established Wood Release technique? Or are you really trying to suggest that Kishimoto made two separate Wood Release cloning techniques that do virtually the same thing, just to make Zetsu a bit different? Logic and reason, and the facts frankly, that have been presented in the series so far, would suggest otherwise. But, from the tone of your argument, I see now that all you're doing is lashing out, calling names, and are no longer interested in simply providing evidence to back up your claims.


 * I'll say it again. I don't really mind the techniques being Wood Release, if they're proven to be Wood Release. That means you have to have a little more comparison and evidence than some technique Yamato did in the anime, which is absolutely nothing like the ones we are discussing here, and some strong feelings. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:13, June 25, 2013 (UTC)

Again Fox, trees and flowers are plants. Flowers sprouting from trees actually supports that it's not just brown stuff that's being created using Mokuton. Logically, mixing Earth and Water would result in mud. That's why Mokuton is unique, it's been stated that the chakra is converted into source of life, that would explain why it's not mud but flora. It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever for Mokuton to be crating just trees and not being able to create other types of plants, SINCE the sole fact it creates a type of plant in itself is extraordinary. Not to mention the giant lotus the Ten-Tails sat on, cultivated from Hashirama's cells is not a tree.--Elveonora (talk) 17:29, June 25, 2013 (UTC)

"suggest that Kishimoto made two separate Wood Release cloning techniques that do virtually the same thing" ~ Ten Tailed Fox

Wow, and you're saying I'm just lashing out and not interested in providing evidence? How about to differentiate from normal wood clones not to give the game away as Zetsu's origin hadn't been explained at that point. That's an obvious answer for narrative sake, but to be more clear in story, wood clones don't drain chakra and don't take on the form of people other than the user.

And my example with Yamato isn't that it's not wood release, it is, it obviously is, it's the fact that we readily accept it as wood release and not mayfly communication that annoys me.

The evidence for this ability at least being wood release is blatant, but until another wood user uses it people won't accept it, but Yamato can use a wood technique and no one stops to say "Wait, maybe this isn't wood release" we just accept it, why isn't Zetsu given the same approach when we know he can use Wood Release? He communicates through a system of tree roots and people stop and wonder if it's a hiden technique when there is no other type of technique that matches its description. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 17:59, June 25, 2013 (UTC)

Ok Fox, now i know you're a clever dude...so you making this difference between plants and trees is ridiculous on every possible level. Second, Zetsu and his army were reffered as plant creatures and as degenerated clones of the First Hokage that can use weaker versions of WR. Roots come from trees, flowers and plants can come from trees, spores can also come from the plants/flowers/trees. Plus the fact that the Zetsu army on it's whole has an identical set of skills. Thirs, you're telling that an army of 100.000 strong made from 100% from WR-converted cells of the First, which are stated to be both a life giving source and a way to manipulate plant life as an apparent whole, just happen to have some other way to do pretty much the exact same thing that the concept of WR does.

Hawkeye, take it easy, no need to aggressive atittude. Darksusanoo (talk) 18:44, June 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't know why Hashirama's DNA in this argument is somehow synonymous of Wood Release. Yamato was used to strengthen Zetsu because he had Hashirama's cells within him, not to strengthen their Wood Release. In fact, Wood Release isn't even mentioned when Kabuto notes that he can strengthen them with Yamato. So drop that from your argument. I know that trees are plants, but you're not getting what I'm saying. Zetsu was grown from a flower, he has inherent traits of plants. We cannot differentiate what he can do with his body, and what he can do via Wood Release. We simply don't know where one stops and another begins. See what I mean? For example, lets look at Mayfly Communication Technique and compare it to another of Zetsu's actual wood techniques, Wood Release: Underground Roots Technique;


 * First, note that both techniques involve the creation of roots from Zetsu's feet/lower areas.
 * Now note how differently they appear. In both the anime and manga, the Mayfly Communication roots seem to be part of Zetsu's body, hence they are white, while in the Underground Root Technique, they are clearly tree roots, which is why they are designated Wood Release.


 * Why do I act as though trees and plant matter (flowers, spores, etc.) are a different case? Because, show me ONE example of a Wood Release technique that manipulates pre-existing plants other than trees. Can you give me one where a Wood Release technique created a flower from nothing, or any other type of plant for that matter, other than a tree? If you cannot, then you are speculating that Wood Release creates something other than trees. It is called Wood Release. To say that Wood Release can manipulate flowers, spores, or other types of plants other than trees (which bear wood on them, being my WHOLE point), is like saying Blaze Release can manipulate all kinds of fire, rather than just those flames belonging to Amaterasu. Its still all fire release, but its only manipulating one aspect of that.


 * Now, someone mentioned the life-creating aspects of Wood Release. Have you ever noticed that everything effected by the life giving properties of Wood Release becomes a tree? Zetsu when it transforms, is into a tree. Hashirama could only make trees. Yamato's creations were made from trees and tree wood. That is because Wood Release manipulates WOOD. Nothing else. Zetsu's plant-like attacks have ZERO traits of wood, and in the instances that they do look like wood, we name them Wood Release. That is why those techniques (mayfly, communication, spore) need to await confirmation. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 20:17, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Why is the First Hokage's DNA mentioned...gee maybe it's because of the extremely powerful, KKG that's so tied to it, that anyone else who has can turn into a tree if they can't control it. Danzo for one is good example. Also how the Zetsu's bodies have such a concentration of these KKG cells, that they turn into trees when exposed to Yang chakra. If that happens it's because of constitution of their bodies. Here's a comparison...when Naruto first gained the NTCM, the Yang chakra caused Yamato's Wood Jutsu to grow into full blown trees...same thing with the Zetsu clones...gee those two can't possibly be related can theY?


 * Another detail...WR techniques are mostly created by manipulating the users body into plant material...even the underground roots Zetsu used, came from his body. Pretty much every single one of Zetsu's skills revolve around unique physical manipulations. I even went as far as to only mention three of the more obvious ones, cuz his cloning techniques have me doubting as well. Also another detail, Zetsu clones were reffered by Sakura and Madara as degraded clones with lesser abilities in WR...maybe the reason they can only do these lesser, more plant-then-tree related feats is because of their inferior genetics?.


 * You want an example? Besides the Advent of a World of Flowering Trees, that creates giant flowers with sleeping pollen? Maybe the giant lotus plant Madara keeps on his basement from where all Zetsu come from, made from..."drum roll"...Hashirama's DNA. And one thing...by your theory, if WR only manipulated WOOD and not plants, then hell we wouldn't even see the Flowering Trees, the giant lotus, hell we wouldn't even see leaves on the trees created by it. After all only wood is being manipulated here. Plus your comparison of Blaze and Fire Release is a bad one. Amaterasu is stated as the highest point of Fire Release...Blaze Release is pretty much shape transformation of it to various effects, yet for all intents, it's pretty much a sub-style to Fire Release. Darksusanoo (talk) 21:13, June 25, 2013 (UTC)

fingernails
Can anyone provide an instance from manga where Zetsu is shown not having them?--Elveonora (talk) 14:08, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't think you'll find one where he does. I don't recall him ever having finger or toenails at all.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:45, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * Really? I do quite as the very opposite, I can't find one where he doesn't. Look at "mayfly communication technique" in manga, you can clearly see nails. Same goes when Sasuke kills White Zetsu, he has nails there too, that's why I brought the topic up since the article mentions their absence for some reason--Elveonora (talk) 15:09, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * He does in fact have toenails visible during the communication. I don't see any when Sasuke kills White Zetsu. Most of the time they aren't depicted with nails at all. But those instances are usually when there is no focus on that body part unlike the communication technique.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:55, June 25, 2013 (UTC)
 * When he got pierced with Sasuke's sword to the wall, the edges of his fingers look like nails to me. One way or another, he has them. It's like saying Izuna has no nose since he was often depicted with lack of detail in flashbacks.--Elveonora (talk) 16:14, June 25, 2013 (UTC)