Talk:Nature Transformation

Blaze Release
I'm sorry if this has already been addressed, but why isn't Blaze Release on the chart? I was thinking it could fit perfectly in Fire and Lightning, so I did a little exploring. The original image had it. And also, I realize that nothing is proven but; 1. Blaze Release has only been used by Sasuke Uchiha, a shinobi who uses mostly Lightning and Fire Release. 2. We're already assuming stuff with the chart, with the "implied" stuff. 3. When you think of it, Fire+Lightning sounds like it would make a "blaze" Entrancement (talk) 03:48, May 13, 2018 (UTC)
 * Read previous archives of this talk page, and the ones of talk pages of related articles. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 07:23, May 13, 2018 (UTC)

Elemental Weaknesses
It's been stated here that in the elemental weakness order, earth and lightning are switched. I think this should be noted because the original weakness order which was Fire > Wind > Earth > Lightning > Water > Fire, wasn't from Naruto. However, when it got implemented into the series, Earth and Lightning got switched. Kaithehedgefox (talk) 06:55, May 13, 2018 (UTC)kaithehedgefoxKaithehedgefox (talk) 06:55, May 13, 2018 (UTC)
 * Someone's random opinion, in a random post, in a random forum somewhere on the internet, comparing it to another franchise mean nothing. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 07:23, May 13, 2018 (UTC)
 * Actually, it's not an opinion, it could be something found from a source, that I cannot find anywhere.
 * No source =/= no proof =/= no credibility = invalid.Ravenlot 27 (talk) 15:02, May 13, 2018 (UTC)
 * Also, to add; do you really think Earth beats Lightning? All of this stuff have reason, lightning breaks the earth. Entrancement (talk) 19:17, May 13, 2018 (UTC)
 * Mainly due to what lightning charka does. Unlike wind chakra which focuses on just cutting like a saw or a flurry of blades, Lightning chakra vibrates giving its cutting power more oomph. A vibrating knife has more effectiveness than one that just relies on its sharpness. For earth, that lets Lightning on its face break down the strong bonds between the particles. In some ways Wind is the sword, Lighnting is the Javelin/Spear, and Earth is the Shield.Umishiru (talk) 23:33, May 13, 2018 (UTC)
 * But, that only happens in Naruto, and I previously mentioned that the original cycle wasn't from Naruto. Wind beats Earth, because it can easily break the ground apart. Earth beats Lightning because Earth smashes Lightning. And Lightning beats Water because Lightning zaps and flows through water. I still think that noting Earth and Lightning being switched should be noted because of what I aforementioned.Kaithehedgefox (talk) 02:00, May 14, 2018 (UTC)kaithehedgefoxKaithehedgefox (talk) 02:00, May 14, 2018 (UTC)
 * What you think doesn't matter. What you're nonsensically trying to argue is that because some other franchise arbitrarily decided how they wanted to "rock-paper-scissor" the elements, all other works of fiction have to treat them the same. The closest thing to an "original cycle" would be whatever existed in ancient mythology and religions, and as works of fiction, neither Naruto, nor Pokemon, nor any other franchise are beholden to it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:21, May 14, 2018 (UTC)
 * It's not only what I just think, I swear that the original cycle was from Japanese philosphy. The five elements are Water, Fire, Wind, Earth, and Void. It should be noted that Lightning is a subset of either Fire or Void. Look here.


 * Fire overtakes Wind (A.K.A Air)
 * Wind (A.K.A Air) breaks Earth
 * Earth smashes Lightning (A.K.A Electricity)
 * Lightning (A.K.A Electricity) zaps Water.
 * Water extinguishes Fire

Kaithehedgefox (talk) 03:49, May 15, 2018 (UTC)KaithehedgefoxKaithehedgefox (talk) 03:49, May 15, 2018 (UTC)


 * If we were looking for something that was logical it'd be...

Fire beats Earth, since Fire "feeds" on Earth based substances. Water beats Fire for obvious reasons. Lightning beats Water because it flows easily through Water. Earth beats Lightning since in reality "It has no visible affect on the earth. Lightning rods work this way. They take lightning and channel it underground where it can't hurt anyone.  That's why houses aren't destroyed every single time a storm passes by". And Wind beats Earth cause Wind corrodes Earth. That in my opinion, makes the most sense. But this is a Fantasy Genre. So, what makes sense doesn't hold here. What the writer writes, is the law of the universe. LoneNinja (talk) 05:17, May 15, 2018 (UTC)
 * In the Wikipedia article you linked Kai, none of the five elements are at all suggested to have a weaker/stronger relationship between them in the form of a cycle, just a tiered power structure, so your arguments still falls flat. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 08:31, May 15, 2018 (UTC)
 * Actually, the five elements are suggested to have strengths and weaknesses. Look at the original weakness cycle here. Kaithehedgefox (talk) 10:10, May 17, 2018 (UTC)KaithehedgefoxKaithehedgefox (talk) 10:10, May 17, 2018 (UTC)
 * Because sure, the best defence to this already failing argument is another random person's website. You're just digging yourself deeper. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 12:49, May 17, 2018 (UTC)
 * I think we should ask Kishimoto about this. Kaithehedgefox (talk) 16:49, June 16, 2018 (UTC)KaithehedgefoxKaithehedgefox (talk) 16:49, June 16, 2018 (UTC)
 * Tru, lemme just shoot him a msg on whatsapp • Seelentau 愛 議 17:18, June 16, 2018 (UTC)


 * @Kai: It’s just how Kishimoto designed the chakra natures and we have to take him at his word, if he wanted the chakra natures to have different relatonships than originally, he would’ve stated. It makes no logical sense to place other information in the article if it’s quite clearly untrue. Also, you can’t just “ask” Kishimoto about this, unless you have somehow managed to get his phone number or something, and he’d give you the same info we have here, because that’s what has been established. Gavin The Otter (talk) 17:34, June 16, 2018 (UTC)


 * Actually, he did that for a special reason, so that's why I would contact him. Kaithehedgefox (talk) 17:40, June 16, 2018 (UTC)kaithehedgefoxKaithehedgefox (talk) 17:40, June 16, 2018 (UTC)
 * But he’d just tell you what he’d have here, the chakra nature relationships are as they appear here, because that’s what he stated. Gavin The Otter (talk) 17:44, June 16, 2018 (UTC)

Kakashi's "Natural" Possession of Chakra Natures
At current, the article lists Hashirama, Tobirama, Hiruzen, Orochimaru and Mū as "the only shinobi known to [possess all five chakra natures and] have done so via normal means". Why isn't Kakashi listed here?

If it's due to his Sharingan, well the Sharingan doesn't enable one to acquire chakra natures. Kakashi copied a more than a handful of techniques, but only because he was already able to use those chakra natures, right?

Besides, how do we even know if Orochimaru naturally acquired them? He changes bodies so often; he literally can acquire kekkei genkai from switching bodies so why couldn't be acquire basic chakra natures?

And Mu, he as a Kekkei Tota which gives him 3 out of the 5 chakra natures right off the bat.

Compared to Mu and Orochimaru, Kakashi is definitely much more "natural". DazzlingEmerald (talk) 18:24, August 22, 2018 (UTC)
 * Oversight. Mu might have kekkei tota, but that he has that naturally, so still a natural acquisition. Regarding Orochimaru, that would be more inline of if it was about acquiring or changing affinities, this is just about actually using the natures. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:19, August 22, 2018 (UTC)
 * Seelentau removed Kakashi here in response to this this discussion. ~SnapperTo 22:40, August 22, 2018 (UTC)

"Free Slot" Combination
Regarding Magnet and Explosion, can we actually assume they are combos of [Wind and Earth] and [Earth and Lightning] respectively, solely because of they are based on the "unused" natures? It is possible for the same combos to create different advanced natures, as both Wood and Mud share [Water and Earth]. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 03:41, 23 June 2022 (UTC)
 * Magnet's wind and earth assumption comes from Rasa's Jin no Sho profile, which listed him a user of Wind, Earth, and Water Release, but not lightning or fire. To me it makes little to no sense how earth and wind would result in magnet, but that's still better than any of the other available combinations. For me, magnet would have to at least use lightning, with either wind or earth. For Explosion Release, I have always been against listing it as that combination, the full rationale of which should be detailed in whatever archived talk page discussion I participated, but simplifies down to the assumption of Earth Release as a component being incorrect due to Deidara's clay not being a standard form of Explosion Release, both because of how lightning affected the clay, and how the Iwagakure kinjutsu features in it. I've just discussed it enough not to care much about trying to change it anymore. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 04:33, 23 June 2022 (UTC)