Talk:Kekkei Tōta

Merge
Should we merge this and make it a section of the Kekkei Genkai page? Since it's basically an expanded form, and only has one example right now. ZeroSD (talk) 09:44, January 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think that's a good idea. A kekkei tōta seems to work quite differently from a kekkei genkai. —ShounenSuki (talk 09:58, January 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * The main difference seems to be the number of elements, those with unusual genetics combining multiple natures into a greater one. The way they describe it really seems to be as an advanced but related form. ZeroSD (talk) 10:55, January 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * The word and the way the Third Tsuchikage talks about it makes it seem not quite as natural as a kekkei genkai. I think kekkei tōta are somehow the result of eugenics of genetic manipulation. —ShounenSuki (talk 11:26, January 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * I have a similar impression, but not all kekkei genkai are obtained through exactly normal means either. 'Same basic kind of thing, pushed forward by probably unnatural means' is how I'd describe it. Hm... maybe we should handle it like we do the mangekyo to the normal Sharingan? ZeroSD (talk) 16:17, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

bit confused
reading this article makes me think its an advanced form of Kekkei Genkai. Yet reading the manga on mangastream. (chapter 525 page 17) the third talks about how the secrets was passed down to him from his master. so.... what the hell is going on? SharinganMike (talk) 11:21, January 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * This confused me as well. A lot. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:48, January 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * This ability has just made me so rediculously confused about everything related to ninjitsu in this series. I was already confused due to so many people somehow getting KKGs with no apparent relation. I now have no idea what in the world any of this stuff entails. Originally, ninjitsu was like a scientific magic of sorts. Its just becoming straight up magic now, with all previous logic and reasoning and explanations thrown out the window, and stuff just coming from out of nowheres. How is this a KKG or anything related to it and how is it even any sort of technique. So confused. SkyFlicker (talk) 09:43, February 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually, if you look at it, this can sort of explain the Lava Release situation, and why there are multiple users without blood connection. Dust is a kekkei tōta that merges earth, wind, and fire. Kurotsuchi simply inherited a depreciated form of it, losing the ability to merge wind, staying with earth and fire, which allows her to use lava. She and Mei both use Lava Release, but acquired it in different ways: Mei presumably inherited Lava Release from one of her parents, and Kurotsuchi is a second generation who got a depreciated form of Dust Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 13:58, February 1, 2011 (UTC)

Name
I compared the naming of this and KkGk and I understand that, this is something like Selection of a few genes,that, combining it with already existing genes, creates the KkTt... or something like that. --The ultimate fan of NARUTO--  welimer2 (talk) 19:10, January 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * gene splicing and genetic engineering basically. a nice curveball there that no-one was expecting. SharinganMike (talk) 19:15, January 28, 2011 (UTC)

mangekyo sharingan
seeing as its an advanced version of a kekkei genkai too couldnt the mangekyo sharingan be a kekkei tota but i guess thats just speculation
 * From what Shikaku Nara said, only Ōnoki (and Mū) possess this ability. --Cerez365 (talk) 13:48, February 3, 2011 (UTC)

Actually, this raises an interesting point, cause while Shikaku knew of Onoki's ability, he was completely unaware of Mu, so maybe not the Mangekyo, but the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingn might fit into this category as considering it is done by taking the eyes of what would be a genetically compatible sibling might lead to that selective genetics criteria while Shikaku wouldn't know about it.--Hawkeye2701 (talk) 14:30, February 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's the case with the Mangekyou Sharingan, we just don't know a lot about how it really works. For all we know, it's just a transformation triggered by intentense emotion (such as would be provoked by killing a close friend or sibling), similar to how the individual tomoe develop through training.
 * All we really know about Kekkei Touta is based on the name, Touta, which means "evolutionary selection", as in artificial or natural selection. This implies that a Kekkei Touta is probably developed by breeding members of clans with different kekkei genkai in order to produce a new ability. If that's the case, then there really may be more Kekkei Touta out there (the Rinnegan, perhaps, could be considered a Kekkei Touta, as it combines Uchiha and Senju), but they'd likely be extremely rare, as most clans with unique abilities seem to "keep it in the family" to preserve their abilities and prevent their bloodline from becoming diluted. 66.220.139.106 (talk) 16:15, February 11, 2011 (UTC)

abilities/capabilities
I thought about this for a while, and I think the answer is in the name. Essentially, I think it means that you can select your elemental ability by combining elements. The more skilled the user is, the more elements the user can combine. For example, onoki can use fire, earth, and wind to create dust release. I think he, or muu chose to use the dust release, rather than creating a different elemntal combination.

Basically, I think kekkei tota is choosing which element you want to create by using the elements that you possess.

Another idea is that onoki is currently teaching kekkai tota to kurotsuchi. I think this because onoki's skills are advanced in kekkai tota, so he can combine the three elements he has. Maybe kurotsuchi is training to do so, but now she can only combine two elements, fire and earth. We know that she can use water, so maybe she will end up using a three element combination with earth, fire and water. In fact, she might even be able to surpass onoki if she has a fourth element, and learns how to combine four elements. This is just a prediction.


 * Tōta doesn't mean selection in that manner. Tōta refers to natural or eugenic selection: the selection of genes and traits on basis of their usefulness and desirability. —ShounenSuki (talk 14:15, March 26, 2011 (UTC)

Oh. That is good to know. So it means selection on the line of DNA or genetic selection, not the ability to select. Then I will have to come up with a prediction that matches that. It is also known as bloodline expansion, right? -kakudai

Not a forum. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:57, March 26, 2011 (UTC)

Mangekyo Sharingan
If the Sharingan is a Kekkei Genkai, then shouldn't the Mangekyo Sharingan be a Kekkei Tota? I remember the Nara once said that Dust Release was the only one, but what does he know? Especially since the Mangekyo Sharingan could only be known if one had the Sharingan and read the scrolls in the Uchiha Village. Vegerot ( talk ) 05:26, January 15, 2012 (UTC)!

Reading the discussion above this would have answered your question. "Kekkai Tota refers to the selection of traits based on their usefulness and desirability." I'm assuming it's akin to breeding certain dog breeds to attain an entirely new one. And what do you mean "what does he (Skikaku) know"? He's the head on the Nara clan and the head of the Allied Intelligence. And the Mangekyo is known to others who haven't read the Naka shrine tablet. Skitts (talk) 05:41, January 15, 2012 (UTC)

Bloodline Expantion
Manga 525, page 15 clearly tells that the Kekkei Tota's are a Bloodline Expantion. Could this mean that Kekkei Tota's are Kekkei Genkai's that *can* be passed down to a person of choice? If so, we should add it in the article.
 * In principle, that's exactly what it is. However Kekkei Tōta were never called Kekkei Genkai (in fact the only thing they share is the word "kekkei") and since we don't know Mū relation to Ōnoki, (if any at all) we cannot assume it's simply a kekkei genkai that can be taught, especially since that would defeat the purpose of being a bloodline limit --Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 13:51, January 25, 2012 (UTC)

I suppose you are right with that, but we do know that Mu was the one that thought it to Onoki. I think it's pretty obvious that the two had a master-student relationship. There must be some way in which the technique is thought to one another. Perhaps the way to do it might be a complicated ritual in which DNA might be exchanged? I don't know, I'm guessing here but the answer lies in the way it is thought. Antonino200 (talk) 14:03, January 25, 2012 (UTC)

Jutsu formation
So, we know that a Kekkei Genkai justu is made by combining two different natures. Each nature comes from each hand, and with hand seals they combine them to create a new nature!

But, a Kekkei Genkai has THREE natures. So, what if a Gekkei Tota is created by combining two Kekkei Genkai's at once, each one in one had. Of course it would require massive skill... but how else could a Tota justu be performed?

Perhaps we should at it as trivia... Antonino200 (talk) 19:27, January 25, 2012 (UTC)

Mu's and Onoki's kekkai Tota is formed by combining Earth, Wind and Fire nature transformations, and they're said to be the only one's in the world with a KT. The bit about combining each nature in each hand was only said about Yamato with Wood Release. Honestly, I've no clue what you're trying to say. Skitts (talk) 19:31, January 25, 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, the talkpages is not a place for speculation.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 19:42, January 25, 2012 (UTC)

You kind of explained it yourself... Yamato talked about how he formed his Wood release. Water style in his left, Earth style in his right, hand seal -> Wood release.

What if Dust release is a Kekkei Genkai from two of the three elements in one hand and in the other hand another Kekkei Genkai from two of the tree elements in the other hand. Combining the two Kekkei Genkai would THEN form a Kekkei Tota.

I guess in theorie this would mean that with Fire, Earth and Wind releases you can form more Kekkei Tota's, other then Dust, if you combine different types of Kekkei Genkai's... I hope I could explain it a little more :) Antonino200 (talk) 23:01, January 28, 2012 (UTC)

This is not a place for speculation, if more is added, I will remove it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:28, January 29, 2012 (UTC)

Hidden Jutsu
since there is no said relation from Onoki to Mu shouldn't we put in the trivia it's similiar to Hidden Jutsu
 * You're referring to Hiden techniques, and Hiden techniques are taught to relatives, such as the Nara clan's Shadow-based techniques only being taught to those within the clan. Skitts (talk) 01:35, May 10, 2012 (UTC)

anime information 0_o
Isn't that kinda contradicting with "passed down" ? Unless they are related somehow.--Elveonora (talk) 14:18, June 28, 2012 (UTC)


 * There's nothing anime about that. It was said to have been "passed down" in the manga.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:47, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

The way it was said sounded like Mu taught Onoki the Particle Style. With the anime explanation it's clearly genetic--Elveonora (talk) 15:14, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

Ah, the anime said different things. Could anyone be so kind as to give me what exactly they said.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 15:16, June 28, 2012 (UTC)

Not really different, just more in-depth explanation that was never elaborated upon in the manga and was just up to our guesses. Something like people with elemental KKG are born with 2 elemental affinities, those that are born with 3 have Tota ... but Mei has 2 elemental KKG and no Tota, so it doesn't make sense in her case. I thought that the KKG is the ability that allows one to combine 2 elements, not that it's people born with 2 elements ... EDIT: read what I posted in nature transformation talkpage--Elveonora (talk) 15:23, June 28, 2012 (UTC)
 * Each element combination is a different kekkei genkai. Otherwise, a person knowing 2 different natures would have one advanced nature, knowing 3 different natures would have three advanced natures and so on. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:08, June 30, 2012 (UTC)

Anime: born with 3 chakra affinities = Kekkei Tota. Mei has 2 elemental KKG (fire+earth and fire+water) thus she got born with 3 natures and has 2 KKG instead of Tota--Elveonora (talk) 05:35, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

it's cause she got the genes for both kekkei genkai from her family.71.71.58.181 (talk) 06:05, July 1, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan

And that's why the anime explanation kinda contradicts with manga due to Mei. 2 different sets of genes that allow for 2 advanced natures you say, Mei has "3 affinities" and has 2 KKG, Onoki has according to the anime also "3 affinities" and has a Tota. This would fit with the anime explanation if she had 4 affinities. Even if someone got born with 5-6 affinities, that wouldn't allow the person to use advanced natures ... unique genes are required. Being born with 2 sets of genes that allows her to combine water+fire(1st) and fire+earth(2nd) If the anime explanation was true, she should also be able to combine water+earth as well.

Hopefully it's understandable what I say ... in the manga it's specific genes that allow to combine two specific natures/elements to create an advanced one, while in the anime it's genes that make people born with more than 1 affinity but that results in a mess as above (posted some shit also to nature transformation talkpage)--Elveonora (talk) 07:03, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

ok i think i see the misunderstanding. i dont think the anime ment that because one has 3 chakra natures they have a kekkei tota, they have 3 chakra natures because they have a kekkei tota, i think it was a simple mix-up.71.71.58.181 (talk) 07:06, July 1, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan

Then that doesn't explain from where Tota comes and how could Mu pass it to Onoki ... sounds almost like genetic experiments if Onoki wasn't born with it.--Elveonora (talk) 07:50, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

thats the thing, it was never stated if it was passed on through selective breeding (which is my own idea of how it works) or if its some kinda intense training, or some type of ritual type thing. i geuss we'll have to wait for the databook to clear these things up.71.71.58.181 (talk) 10:33, July 1, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan

anime explanation
Battleground! this episode I believe.--Elve Talk Page 22:51, January 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * Then add it. :| • Seelentau 愛 議 23:09, January 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * In that episode, all Shikamaru says it that a Kekkei Tōta is the combination of three chakra natures. He never mentioned affinity's. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 03:46, January 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * He in fact does, he just doesn't use the word. He says that "generally we all possess one chakra nature, that's besides the nature you obtain from training"" then he says "however, there are those born with two chakra natures, who are able to fuse the two and create new chakra, they are known as kekkei genkai shinobi"--Elve Talk Page 11:22, January 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * Or the anime implied that everyone is born with a chakra nature, which is incorrect --Sarutobii2 (talk) 15:23, January 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * By born with a nature they meant affinity.--Elve Talk Page 15:44, January 21, 2015 (UTC)

Which by logic, being born with a kekkei genkai (at least per this example) means being born with two normal affinities (easier to use than whatever the hell they actually said).--TheUltimate3 (talk) 15:47, January 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * And then we are at the point I asked in the forums: What would happen to the chakra paper for such a person? Could Kakuzu have just for hearts if he had Haku's? • Seelentau 愛 議 16:47, January 21, 2015 (UTC)
 * Who knows. Perhaps the chakra will just explode from overload. That that is more of a "What If" question. For all we know there is a different method for people with kekkei genkai. We've only seen the paper used by people without it.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 16:59, January 21, 2015 (UTC)