Talk:Summoning Technique

Hand Seals
Those hand signs are completely wrong. Episode 55 shows the hand signs being boar, dog, bird, monkey, ram. Someone please fix this.24.185.161.132 02:40, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
 * The ones shown are the ones for the basic Summoning Technique. 55 probably showed one of the special ones that were named something other than just "Kuchiyose," i.e. "Kuchiyose: Rashoumon," "Doton Kuchiyose: Tsuiga," etc. Suigetsu Namikaze ( T | C ) 01:58, 22 October 2008 (UTC)

hand seals are different and depend on the user.

death
When a summoning dies does it disapear in smoke--PAIN 15:36, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Don't think so. If the summoner dies, the animal disaperas, but I don't recall anytime when the animal dies and disapers. Jacce 15:43, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

thanks dude--PAIN 15:47, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
 * The giant chameleon (Anime Only) stayed 50 years after his summoners death. Also Manda did not disappear when he died. Though i was wondering, was the reason the chameleon returned home, because without the contract there was no loyalty, or because when the contract was destroyed it canceled the jutsu that brought it there? I'd like to add this info to the page. 74.236.92.133 (talk) 20:29, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Usually the contract is just used to bring forth the animal, but the summoner had lust for revenge, so he made a perment contract to keep the chameleon in the Naruto world. Jacce | Talk 05:42, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Episode 127
Well we should mention somewhere in this article what happened to jiraiya when he didn't have a contract and tried to do the jutsu.. Simant (talk) 21:50, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

Does it ever tell us why that happened? I mean, of all of the places he could have been transported, why the mountain of TOADS? DemonFoxsCloak (talk) 04:24, December 29, 2009 (UTC)

Blood from contracted users
I know i added this "It should be noted that anyone can summon the animal as long as they have the blood from someone who has made a contract, along with sufficient chakra of their own." But, after re-watching Naruto episode 95; When kabuto was so low on chakra he couldn't completely heal himself, he gets blood on his fingers (doesn't show if its his own or Orochimaru's), and swipes it on orchimaru's arm, the thing that confuses me is, it is kabuto's hand that is placed down. So it must be Orochimaru's chakra if kabuto is low, considering how much chakra manda requires. So how should "along with sufficient chakra of their own" be changed? Simant (talk) 20:42, November 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * Most likely, it has to do with Orochimaru's summon tattoo. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:16, November 22, 2009 (UTC)

summoning
when a person had an animal summoned and it is still summoned, what happens when another person tries to summon that same animal? for example, if naruto summoned gamabunta for battle but jiraiya tries to summon gamabunta to where he is, wat happens? 75.2.217.57 (talk) 02:36, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Making the Summon Submit
Is it mentioned anywhere that you must first wrangle with your summon so that you can gain their trust and make a contract? Is that mentioned in the databook anywhere? Jules R. J. Blake (talk) 20:48, January 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Only stuck up summons... Simant (talk) 20:59, January 5, 2010 (UTC)

Fukasaku
In last week's episodes (154 and 155 if I'm not mistaken), just after Naruto is reverse summoned by Gamakichi, Fukasaku goes to Myobokuzan as well. If you look closely, the seals he makes are the ones for this technique. Does this mean that animals can use the Summoning Technique to move around as they please? I assume that's how he got from Myobokuzan to Konoha as well. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:44, April 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * Animals can un-summon themselves. Gamabunta has done it several times. ~SnapperTo 00:33, April 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * But that's when they're called by someone else, Fukasaku appears to move around summoning himself. No one summoned him, so he couldn't have un-summoned himself. Also, no other animal used hand-seals to do that. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:40, April 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd imagine he can use the same portal that Shima used to get near Konoha. ~SnapperTo 04:16, April 16, 2010 (UTC)

Scroll summoning
After watching the third Shippuden movie, this came back to me: Suigetsu once summoned Manda using Sasuke's blood on a specially made scroll. In the movie, one of Hiruko's henchman could summon the other two henchman using specials scrolls as well. I think they should be mentioned. Hiruko's henchmen summoned animals the regular way, so they'd be listed as users anyway, but should Suigetsu be listed as a user? It was with tools, but he did summon Manda. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:44, April 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Summons are making my brain hurt. Suigetsu, since he doesn't appear to have used his own blood, only seems as much a summoner of snakes as Kabuto was during the Sannin Sortie. ~SnapperTo 03:28, April 22, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yeah, Suigetsu had some of Sasuke's blood in a bottle, and thanks, I didn't remember that Kabuto did that as well. Technically, they still used the technique, they're the ones who slammed their ends and used chakra to summon the creatures. We could add annotations for special circumstances. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:49, April 22, 2010 (UTC)

When Naruto was going to summon his clone he only needed one scroll over the two in the Chunin exam, which is interesting. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 18:05, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

Animation
Should we mention that change in animation we saw in 160? It seems more fluid now. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:23, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Various species
I know that I got into an argument about his earlier on (how Sasuke could summon both snakes and hawks at different times) in regards to other people besides Pain summoning multiple species, but what about Kakashi. While what he summons are Ninken they are different species of dogs, which shows some flexibility with this jutsu. --Thomas Finlayson (talk) 1:52, May 19, 2010 (UTC)
 * Technically, all dogs belong to the same species, Canis lupus. He may summon different breeds, but it's still the same species. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:09, May 19, 2010 (UTC)

Jiraiya's Unusual Summoning
An interesting thing of note is this, with Jiraiya not needing blood and doing a single hand-sign for this summon. Does this indicate a higher skill level for summoning? Something similiar to better Chakra control with less need for hand signs? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 22:58, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * No, it indicates a lack of panels dedicated to useless visuals like drawing blood and forming seals. --ShounenSuki (talk 23:04, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Can you think of a single other summoning where we did not see blood? The only exceptions that come to mind was that snake Orochimaru used to destroy that castle in the Search for Tsunade arc (saw snake first so not count), Pain's Animal Path and with Shima who was also a high-level summoner which goes with Jiraiya. For everyone else though there was always the blood, always. Suggestive I think, no? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 23:10, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily. There have been a lot of times where steps in preparing a jutsu have been omitted after the first few times because going through it is costly and time consuming. Imagine every time someone wanted to summon Kishimoto had to devote 3 panels of a page to the cut, handseals, and hand plant for a summon. Or to do jutsu had to devote another 3 or more panels on hand seals.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 23:16, May 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not to mention that if Jiraiya was able to skip over something as important as signing the blood contract vital to summoning, something would have been said about it. It would be like the Fourth Hokage being able to do Hiraishin without jutsu-shiki, or Kakashi being able to do Kamui without the Mangekyō Sharingan. --ShounenSuki (talk 23:38, May 27, 2010 (UTC)

I will admit details have been skipped before, but the blood has always been there. Even in the recent Danzo vs. Sasuke fight both sides took the time to get the blood despite it being a fast paced battle with panels at a premium. As for the 'mention,' if you are referring to the databook there have been ommitted details before (Water Release: Tearing Torrent) or perhaps it is being saved for something relevant like the Animal Path. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 00:42, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

But then remember that both Jiyaiya and Orochimaru (and maybe even Tsunade) have summoning tattoos so it is possible that even if it weren't a lack of panels and Kishimoto thought it was something that we should assume, it is possible that the tattoos may compensate for the use of blood. But seals are still used none the less --Cerez365 (talk) 20:35, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * What? Only Oro had one. 207.6.161.131 (talk) 21:02, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Jiraiya has a tattoo in the palm of his left hand that can be seen there and Tsunade summoned Katsuyu by qiping blood on the back of her hand (which is why I only said "presumably")--Cerez365 (talk) 09:14, June 6, 2010 (UTC)--Cerez365 (talk) 09:14, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

Here is the manga page where this tattoo is seen:. The toad he's standing on has similar markings on its palm. --Kiadony (talk) 08:42, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

All previous jutsu tatooos have look rather different, and it may be similiar to the other one he has on his other hand. Regardless, when Oro used his tatoo he always used blood, as did Tsunade. The example I gave showed no blood at all. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 17:31, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

How unusual is the Animal Path's ability?
Everyone seems to be saying that only the Animal Path is capable of mult-species summoning, but I am not so sure.

Go to Talk: Animal Path. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 04:58, May 28, 2010 (UTC)

Time Limit
In 502 the 4th keeps going on about how Madara (for [example]) can only summon 9-tails for a short time. Is he talking about controlling it, or are there indications perhaps of a limit to how long one can use a summoning via chakra? Just curious. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 00:24, July 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * The summoning doesn't have a time limit. His control over the Nine-Tails is limited. He forcibly controls it via Sharingan, eventually the Nine-Tails will over come it and go wild.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 00:49, July 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * Thanks. I just wanted to clarify what he kept saying. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 00:56, July 16, 2010 (UTC)

Summoning Technique and Summons
I noticed that there is a link on this page that goes to a page called "summons" which is almost a copy of this page. Shouldn't the summons page be deleted? One, it repeats the summoning technique entries and, two, it refers to objects being summoned from scrolls but aren't the objects sealed into the scrolls through fuinjutsu and just unsealed when needed? However, that page did raise a good point with regard to some inanimate objects and not animals being summoned. An example is Orochimaru's Summoning: Rashomon and Ibiki Morino's Summoning: Torture Chamber and Summoning: Iron Maiden. Can't those be included also in this category.Ghidora (talk) 07:12, August 9, 2010 (UTC)

I inserted the changes I proposed. But I did not remove the last sentence of the previous entry, referring to the Contract Seal because I want to get your views on it first. Wasn't the contract seal used only to take away control over the nine-tails and not necessarily to do away with the summon? Its a weakness of the Mangekyo in controlling the nine-tails but not the summoning technique.Ghidora (talk) 12:07, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Please don't do ***** . As for summons, This user felt it should be seperated, then they decided to ignore my disapproval. S im A nt 17:34, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * If it makes you feel any better, I agree that the Summon article is superfluous and better off being remerged with the Summoning Technique article. —ShounenSuki (talk 20:59, August 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Truth be told, my first response was to revert the page then delete the Summons article. Unfortunately, I feel that was be a abuse of my power and have decided to let things play out on their own without my intervention. I took this response with several other articles actually.
 * Then let's remerge them, it seems the change didn't please people. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:40, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * In that case would you mind organizing the page better? The reason I made that page, and thank you for your restraint The Ultimate3, because a conflict started over what information should be there and what was related to what was summoned and the technique. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 01:25, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * As for the content, that was a direct from the summoning page. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 01:28, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * My solution: revert, http://naruto.wikia.com/index.php?title=Summoning_Technique&diff=332431&oldid=330377. and return the article to completeness. As for the article not being about summons, stuff like, "A large animal can carry a person" is not really helpful. S im A nt  01:47, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Some differences have emerged, so cut and paste might be better. And if you are talking about 'the Summons is large enough, a summoner can get into their mouth and release the summons so that they disappear with the animal[3],' I think Sasuke found it helpful. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 04:54, August 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * talking about this. S im A nt 05:05, August 10, 2010 (UTC)

Summoning with scrolls is easier
Just a thought, but in chapter 508 and after the Chunin exam with Iruka, those summons were done without the wills of the ones holding the paper (Iruka did not seem to be in a position to just drop in, and Kisame was dead [we think, seeing as how we have said that before]), so no or very little chakra was used. That would make it seem that summons with scrolls do no required. [This] would appear to be the exception, but this was deliberate and he still got a Kage level summon (or something like that) with ease; hence the relatively little chakra. Thoughts? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 05:18, September 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmm...no comments, okay, before I put it up I guess I will just put in place a possible counter I thought of ahead of time: Why do not more people use scrolls for summons then? First of all I would say that the same amount of energy is required for it to work when the summon is made (chakra not needed in combat, but before when summon prepared). Second, paper is not the most durable (heavy rain, rough terrain, falls out of the pouch) and the time spent finding out you cannot use it to summon probably would be fatal. Third, it is reasonable to assume whoever makes the summon can do a normal summon already and this is a more advanced form requiring more skill that others may not seem necessary. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 00:06, September 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * By the wretched teet of Kil'jaeden. You just love to make things more difficult then they need to be don't you. It does not matter if something is easier or not. Suigetsu summoned a creature he had no contract with. How he learned to do it, I don't know. I don't even care. Why don't people just use scrolls? Because they summons require contracts with the animal. Summon something you don't have a contract with, congratulations you just summoned a creature that will kill you.
 * It maybe worth a mention that it is possible to forcibly summon something, but we're not going to go any deeper than that. Speculative assumptions are speculative assumptions. And no I will not go into a long argument over that.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 00:24, September 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * I do at times find joy out of being a tad annoying, but generally not with stuff I find serious enough like this (not for months at least); If I wanted to make life difficult I would have other ways, such as to keep arguing even after I come to agree with other people; and who the heck is Kil'jaeden anyways? On to business though, I did comment on how it develops from a normal summons (and you could summon a vicious animal with the scroll and leave as your opponents deal with it, like those bears or tigers from the Forest of Death). That forced summon would explain Suigetsu actually, thanks. What about the other two examples though? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 00:58, September 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Kil'jaeden, Legionlord of the Burning Legion. What I just said is apparently the equivalent of "Oh my god" to the draenei.
 * Now that my awesome explanation is out of the way, I have no idea what you are talking about with Iruka, and those sharks were part of the trap. He didn't need to be alive for them to still be active.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 01:46, September 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * At the risk of annoying you, "EXACTLY!" The summoning of the sharks a) did not require Kisame to be alive, b) Guy to want it to happen, which means c) no Chakra would be required. No doubt there are several hypothesis' for how this could be, but we will save that for later (though I say the chakra was 'stored' so to speak in the scroll, or 'given' when it was made). Regardless, it means that a summon, a multiple summon with as many summoned as necessary (Kisame could not have anticipated how many people would be present, but the exact number of sharks required was present), was done without chakra! As for Iruka: . Thomas Finlayson (talk) 05:38, September 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * A point I feel compelled to bring up is: 'It should be noted that anyone can summon the animal as long as they have the blood from someone who has made a contract, along with sufficient chakra of their own. ' which we will have to work in as well. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 21:44, September 14, 2010 (UTC)

Finally figured out why scrolls are not used more if they are so much easier. The simple fact is that anyone can use them. If it is your teamates,your enemies (who have taken it from you dead or alive) can be summoned with knives ready to stab, and if it is an summoned animal, that animal has proven willing to be loyal to your village and thus should be killed too; or they can be interrogated. Thus, while summons with a scroll would be easier, it is also very bad for security. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 01:43, September 18, 2010 (UTC)

High-Ranking Summoners do not always need blood
Consistently Kishi has been careful to show the blood required for summons, and lets be honest it does not take much room on the page either to put a small picture of biting ones thumb, or much time. The 3rd, Sasuke, and Danzo all use it. But others are not shown to do it (we should leave Nagato out since his Rinnegan makes it a tad ambigious). In a fight (not when training or knowing his chakra is unstable) Jiraiya omitted blood (I know I have used this one before, but now I have more from recent stuff, and they are indeed fairly high ranked. Once may be seen as an error, but three is different, especially if one does not look at it as 3 difference in 511 chapters but 3 in but a hand-full of summons. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 20:01, September 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Blood is needed for a contracted summon. You have no evidence these creatures are contracted, evidence suggests they are deceases like the paths of pain, and deceased creatures are the same as objects, no blood required. End of Story. 74.236.92.133 (talk) 20:59, September 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Kisame + bitten tongue + covered in blood = no extra effort needed for donation. ~SnapperTo 21:12, September 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * @Snapper2, reasonable, but why did Danzo and Sasuke go to the trouble of reaching up to their bloodied wounds? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 21:20, September 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * @Unregistered Guy, the toad should be contracted, and since no scrolls were shown we have every reason to believe a contract was still needed for the tortoise and the sharks. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 21:20, September 24, 2010 (UTC) Thomas Finlayson (talk) 21:20, September 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Because there wasn't already blood on their hands? ~SnapperTo 21:28, September 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Don't forget that just because something isn't shown, it doesn't mean something isn't done. Panel space is precious and it would be wasteful to dedicate panels to things like drawing blood, which everyone already knows is necessary. —ShounenSuki (talk 00:52, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's worth noting, panel space and Kishimoto omitting unnecessary things was already explained, yet amusingly ignored.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 01:18, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * @Snapper2, the blood was mainly around his mouth, not his hand. And the other two? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 01:30, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * @ShounSuki, yet effort was made before to do so, and thank you TheUltimate3. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 01:30, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Jiraiya's the only example where there's no obvious sign that he's using blood. Kisame's got splotches of it all over his body and Guy could have gotten blood from somewhere in the previous (and omitted) panel. ~SnapperTo 01:40, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * For Kisame it looks less like blood than bruises from fighting Guy, the blood is around his mouth (top-right]. As for Guy having an omitted panel, I cover that above. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 17:40, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Do all of the various summaries say what it is (more weight to the argument), or maybe you guys should just skip this for now and deal with the others. GoldenTopaz (talk) 00:37, September 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * If you are talking about Guy and Jiraiya, that would be okay, though I would like to point out Daytime Tiger should not cause much external bleeding. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:10, October 2, 2010 (UTC)

More for Jiraiya -. GoldenTopaz (talk) 16:06, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

I don't realy understand why all of this. The Summoning technique was explained already when Jiraiya was teaching it to Naruto--Cerez365 (talk) 16:19, October 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * I went over that a bit up top (and you will notice that GoldenTopaz's images predate that), and the thing was that Jiraiya was teaching Naruto the "basics" of this jutsu, which required the blood, while the rest are at least Jonin-level ninja with no reason for the blood to be omitted. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 22:42, October 6, 2010 (UTC)

Thomas Finlayson (talk) 01:38, October 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * I was wondering if for that last source, if all of the blood on the ground could be used, but then I found this:, and there was plenty of blood being spilled at the time. It also seems to invalidate Kisame using any blood on his body (if there was any besides his tongue, since Kakashi had blood on him too. GoldenTopaz (talk) 16:16, October 7, 2010 (UTC)

Were on chapter 512 seriously why all the argument over summoning? We all know that you need blood to summon. We've also seen what happened when you try without a contract. Over the series things are not portrayed the same. Remember the first time kakashi summoned the ningogs? http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-28-page-7.html http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-29-page-16.html It was also a jutsu involved ,but it was still way more then they do now. He used a scroll. If every time someone summon they did that we would be 10 issues back. He cant show everything everytime. Do you always see clones when naruto dose Rasengan? Do Hyūga always do they hand seals for Byakugan? Do they show dark Sakura anymore? After awhile illustrating the same thing gets old.TwinRisingDragons 03:26, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * That jutsu Kakashi used was different indeed, such as being a B-rank, and allowed to tunnel through a stone (?) bridge, plus that implies we should ignore the other 511 chapters. I thought the Rasengan not needing clones was from experience, and we have seen evidence before of ninja using less or no hand-signs for the job, Dark Sakura could be a form of maturity, etc. Saying that drawing without blood gets old, but that still does not address that Jiraiya one at the hot spring. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 04:55, October 8, 2010 (UTC)

Jiraiya! Actually I was just talking about him on another talk page stating he had a natural affinity for toads which may be why its different. Also As you see in first panel Jiraiya is clearly going throw the summing process.?TwinRisingDragons 06:51, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * If you mean this, that issue does not seem clear enough yet. Plus, I see a hand sign, just one, and a partial one at that, but no blood. And before someone brings up Oro. in the Forest of Death, that one can be argued in circles over whether or not he was trying to hide his true potential from them until later on. And the others? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 19:08, October 8, 2010 (UTC)
 * Jiraiya seems to work out now, but what about the others? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:12, October 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * "The absence of evidence, is not evidence of absence." I doubt you will take this to mean anything, but considering how this is still going on, I felt it was appropriate.--TheUltimate3~The User King~ 02:17, October 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Ooh, good quote (who said that?), and, seriously, an important point. Okay, I admit that could be used to counter some scenes where blood is not seen, but I would like to point out that scenes missing are an important part of a sequence. Put another way, if blood is indeed "always" necessary, then they are turning on the car without the key. But, this will not get us far, so I would like to try a challenge: prove they "did" use blood. In other words show a scene (especially at the hot springs and the training that followed) where blood was shown, that they did have to use blood in the demonstrated scenes (I know this might weaken some of my examples, but let us see what follows). Thomas Finlayson (talk) 04:13, October 11, 2010 (UTC)
 * That kind of twists the argument around in your favor (especially since you probably looked ahead of time to see if blood was present), but you do have a point that we have do have a responsibility to prove that blood was present during those examples you gave, and since the Databook does not seem to update itself, these could be legitimate improvements in the jutsu (examples of a ninja's progress); while this later part may not be provable it still needs to be considered, and we still have to deal with the first part. GoldenTopaz (talk) 04:19, October 11, 2010 (UTC)


 * I would like to try a challenge: shut. the. fuck. up. These discussions of yours are extending far beyond the adorableness they once occupied and are bleeding into the realm of disruptiveness. But the blood is optional apparently, because I have omitted sentences in which I bludgeon you to death.
 * Your arguments about summoning and - indeed, most things - are comparable to arguments that Naruto can use the Rasengan with one hand. Naruto using Rasengan with one hand would be an amazing accomplishment, one that characters would comment about if it were true. And what's more, there are several examples of him using the Rasengan without it ever being seen formed or without any obvious clones to help him. Therefore, some people conclude, Naruto doesn't need to use clones, he just usually uses them because it's a habit. In the same way, Jiraiya or any other character performing a summon without blood would be an amazing accomplishment, one that characters would comment about if it were true. And what's more, there are several examples of summons being performed with no obvious sources of blood. Therefore, you conclude, characters, characters that you have chosen to call high-ranking because it gives legitimacy to your argument, don't need to use blood, they just do normally because it's a habit.
 * But let's examine the basic style of your logical debates: it doesn't matter if there is or isn't evidence. What matters is that you're right. Some piece of evidence that explicitly states you're wrong? It's outdated. Some alternate interpretation of a scene you yourself are interpreting to fit your needs? Debatable and far less likely for the same reasons that it is different. What to do when the conversation stagnates? "Prove me wrong, because I obviously cannot prove I'm right." I know I've mentioned this particular fallacy to you before, but you haven't seen it in a while so you may not think it's relevant: things need evidence that they are true, not evidence that they are false.
 * So, I'm going to be very, very, very abusive of my position as a sysop and say the following:
 * This discussion is closed.
 * At what point can this discussion be started again?
 * Naruto chapter 612
 * Naruto: Hey Kakashi-sensei! I've noticed on several occasions that blood isn't always offered when performing the Summoning Technique.
 * Kakashi: Wow, you're really observant Naruto! And here I thought you were a ramen-loving idiot!
 * Naruto: Oh, you kidder! So, hey, can you teach me how to perform summons without blood now that you have explicitly stated within the series that it is possible?
 * If you have issues with anything, you may suck them and my good mood.
 * And I am sorry if I have said anything mean-spirited about or against User:GoldenTopaz. ~SnapperTo 04:54, October 11, 2010 (UTC)

Appology not accepted! Thomas Finlayson has been for this discussion, and others from what I have seen, civil and reasonable, and you respond by trying to emotionally shout him down!? Would you do that in live personal debate!? He has probably not responded yet because he has been so infuriated by your accusations, especially about him not having evidence and ignoring older examples despite the fact that he provided a wide range of them, ones which I helped provide I might add which shows in good part why I find your appology also infuriating. His argumenet about high-ranking ninja was not about any habit as you put it, but about skill and experience and the user's present condition at the time, and as for you accusing him of not having evidence, he said he did and asked you, reasonably, if it was "you" who had no evidence for this situation, and your personal attack only adds strength to the impression that you do not! So I am going to continue this discussion in the hope that it will at least revert back to something civilized and so that Thomas Finlayson sees that this site is more that just a place where the person that yells and curses the most does not win the discussion!! GoldenTopaz (talk) 17:30, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * GT has a point, though he needs to tone down the persoanl stuff a little himself. 142.58.132.80 (talk) 17:35, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not a wise decision GoldenTopaz. This has been going on for a month, and got nowhere. It will get no where and no amount of back and forth will do anything. Snapper is right, this discussion is over.--TheUltimate3~The User King~ 18:45, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * My singling out GoldenTopaz was only to clarify that no part of the message was directed at him; I am not asking for forgiveness. ~SnapperTo 22:45, October 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * @ GoldenTopaz, many thanks for the support, I was indeed in a conundrum over how to respond to that, especially in a way that would not inflame the situation. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 01:03, October 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * @ TheUltimate3, I was hoping my change in tact would make new progress, and by a month, yes we did start at the end of September, but that should not be a problem. Though why was that an unwise decision of GoldenTopaz? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 01:03, October 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * @ Snapper2, I think GoldenTopaz found it annoying that you ignored his contribution to help the conversation, especially since he has been helping it along, and I do not think anyone thought you were looking for forgiveness there. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 01:03, October 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * @ Everyone else, okay, I have been trying to reword my last part in a way that was clearer, and I think I might have it.
 * The general summoning we have on the article now is 1(hand-sings) + 2 (blood) + 3 (intent; sounds obvious I know, but Kisame's trap scroll now makes it necessary) + 4 (skill/experience) + 5 (intended summon) = 6 (successful summoning technique). Now what I am proposing is 1+3+4n+5=6, with variable n > being a higher level of experience. Proving that something is not present is difficult, I know, there is even a logic where I could say that I could fly and you "could not prove" otherwise because I could just say I did not feel like it at the time, the trick then is for "me to prove I can" fly. So what I was asking was for you to follow that logic and provied your own evidence, to prove in the examples present that 2 was present in 1+2+3+4+5=6, if not then we have 1+3+4+5=6, which while not necessary my formula, it means we do not have a normal summoning. Examples for this formula have been presented by GoldenTopaz and myself. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 01:03, October 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Making up formulas? Speculating? Absence of evidence? I think you would be more than welcome here, perhaps you could try it out. S im A nt 01:52, October 14, 2010 (UTC)

*sigh* this strangely — or maybe not so strangely — looks like a lot of other pointless discussions that have happened on the wiki. Do I need to write a blog post, article, or something examining the strange need some people seem have to examine small parts of a manga as if they were perfect pictures of a reality that are always undeniably reliable? Do we need a policy on this? This is not a reality, these are not photos, and examining the finite things detailed in a book made up of piles of drawings made by a limited number people is in no way reliable at all. These actions are repetitive, when they've been established as a part of the story's universe the artists trim them out and focus on what is important, what is actually happening in the story. Moreover, those creating these works are not perfect, when doing this over and over, working to continue the story, focusing on what is actually happening in the story rather than non-significant repetitive actions they've already established ages ago those creating the work undoubtedly slip up and make a mistake, be it drawing something a little wrong or forgetting to put an unreasonable level of detail into something that only makes up a very small part of the scene they are working on. And then there are the assistants to consider, entire chapters are not drawn by the original author alone in extreme detail, assistants share the load and contribute to the work, the story would never come out as fast otherwise. When something has been established by the story that something is necessary, the onus is not on the person defending the facts and traditions that the story has already established, it is on the person trying to break that fact and tradition the story has established. Need I remind anyone that Naruto's father was NEVER added to the article no matter how much discussion there was until the story undeniably confirmed it. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Oct 14, 2010 @ 03:19 (UTC) 03:19, October 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * @Simant, *sigh*, I gather you missed my point. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 01:47, October 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * @Dantman, hmm...I confess I had not considered Kishi's assistants, for while I could take a continued event as delibrate if it was just from him, I confess his assistants make it more ambigious. But since, as I said above, he has otherwise been consistant about the blood and made it clear how easy it is, I do not think it is just trimming, though your point on the 4th is well taken. Though yes, it can be said I may take this all too seriously. Though I would like to thank you for getting this discussion back on a reasonable track, and your points are well taken. Hrrmmm...I will let it go for now, and advize the same to GoldenTopaz, but if it continues to happen I will reconsider this issue. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 01:47, October 15, 2010 (UTC)