Talk:Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki

Status
I believe I once brought a forum topic about this. In my opinion, we should reconsider what means to be dead within Narutoverse and we shouldn't use real-world logic and rules to determine life/death in fiction. In my opinion:
 * a dead person/creature = has gone to the pure land
 * still in the impure land = not dead

Lets take Orochimaru as an example. We concluded him as deceased, but that was before the whole Curse Mark reveal. Technically, he never died, as his soul didn't go to the pure land to our knowledge. He only ceased to exist for a while in physical form, but his soul and consciousness remained.

So I ask, is Hagoromo really "dead" ? He is now some interdimensional timeless entity... I would even dare to say a god.--Elveonora (talk) 11:11, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

Well, this is all logical and nice, but the only problem that characters in the manga themselves deny this logic (Hagoromo included) by constantly referring to themselves as "dead" if their body is gone. Even Oro was referred more than once as "killed". So how about that?Faust-RSI (talk) 11:21, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Orochimaru and Hagoromo are "special cases" that's why I'm discussing it in regards to them. Even in Narutoverse, the souls in the pure land appear to have no consciousness, since brain is required for that. I suspect that once the consciousness is gone, there's nothing to hold the soul in the impure land. But these two continue to have consciousness even without a form and as such their souls haven't gone to the pure land, meaning they are alive.

Unless you consider someone crawling out of a neck as dead.--Elveonora (talk) 11:44, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

I don't consider them dead, I don't even consider Edo Tensei's dead, calling them "zombies" is ridiculous on Kishi's side, as they are nothing like zombies. My problem is with the direct statements in the manga that say these particular characters are dead, regardless of how illogical it is. Are we going to just ignore them?Faust-RSI (talk) 11:49, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's because commonly demise of the brain in Narutoverse also equals death. It's 99% true, save for these two. They continue to: have thoughts, senses, awareness and be capable of actions, that's quite alive in my book.--Elveonora (talk) 11:57, March 27, 2014 (UTC)


 * Dead. As dead as dead can get. If his spirit or chakra wants to float around ignoring space and time, fantastic. But he's still dead. The same can't even be used with Orochimaru actually, because Orochimaru was sealed, not killed. Permenant it may have been, Itachi didn't actually kill him, just left him in a state where he might as well been. But yeah, the Sage is dead. Very dead.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:32, March 27, 2014 (UTC)


 * I get what you're saying, but I think if a character specifically refers to themselves as dead, then that's clearly the author saying they're dead. The thing that gets weird is that he also referred to himself as living chakra. I think if we're going to be accurate with these cases we need can't really call them "Alive" or "Dead", as neither accurately describes their status.--Soul reaper (talk) 12:39, March 27, 2014 (UTC)


 * Except the status field isn't for some weird metaphysical thing. Because that would be like saying because Naruto is Asura reincarnated, that Asura is not dead because he is also Naruto. Like I said, the Sage's spirit may have lived on as living chakra, but the man is still dead.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:00, March 27, 2014 (UTC)


 * Reincarnation is fairly different. The Sage himself described his state as living chakra. A description also given to the tailed beasts. I think Elveonora makes a good point when he says we shouldn't apply real world logic to such matters.--Soul reaper (talk) 13:36, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not even implying real world logic. Because otherwise I wouldn't even entertain this discussion. I'm saying, as he even stated, that his life ended. Life ending equals dead. If he lived on as a phantom of living chakra, great job. But he's still dead.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 13:39, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

@Ultimate, I didn't refer to Itachi's sealing of Orochimaru (which didn't happen anyway) but Sasuke's murder of Orochimaru and then the latter after his death crawling out from Sasuke's neck. And death indeed equals demise of physical form, well, unless you are Orochimaru or Hagoromo, that's what I'm saying. Even in Narutoverse consciousness gets lost once the brain dies and the soul then goes to the pure land. Didn't happen with Orochimaru tho, meaning he cheats death--Elveonora (talk) 13:56, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * I believe his status at this moment is as same as Minato from Pain's fight and Kushina form Kurama's fight. All those cases have the same situation that Naruto has about to die several times. — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 14:55, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Weren't chakra Minato and Kushina something akin to Shadow Clones sealed with fuuinjutsu? This is kinda different, as those vanished once the task was over for them.--Elveonora (talk) 19:37, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * They were chakra, but nothing indicated they worked like shadow clones. Their disappearance was nothing like it. They seemed more like quasi-applications of the original ninshū, the whole understanding each others' feelings, but leaving actual chakra behind. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:40, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

Prince
Since his mom was a princess, doesn't that make him one? Not sure how these things work.--Elveonora (talk) 12:14, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * I was wondering the same thing. XD ~IndxcvNovelist (talk 12:16, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

Bump--Elveonora (talk) 12:05, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

Sharingan
I'm just going to go ahead and broach this topic. His mother had a Sharingan. His son had a Sharingan. We now know the Rinnegan is the final evolution of the Sharingan with the addition of the Sage's chakra. Logical conclusion: Hagoromo had a Sharingan. Thoughts? ~ Ten Tailed Fox 07:09, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Despite that he didn't mention it, but I couldn't agree more. — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 07:29, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Despite agreeing with your reasoning, I don't think there's any need to put the Sharingan in the Sage's infobox. Mainly because Hagoromo always used the Rinnegan, which we count as a different dōjutsu from the Sharingan, the Mangekyō Sharingan and the Byakugan.--JOA20 (talk) 07:32, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * That makes no sense whatsoever. Firstly, you have no idea how often (or not) Hagoromo used the Sharingan. Secondly, how is it a different dōjutsu? Its the final form of the Sharingan. We now know how it works. The Sharingan evolves into the Rinnegan when the Sage's chakra is within the user's body. And thirdly, we don't list things by how often they're used. We list things based on whether or not people have them. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 07:42, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * I actually have no problem with adding the Sharingan as Hagoromo's kekkei genkai. But if that were the case, should we add Mangekyō Sharingan as well?--JOA20 (talk) 07:45, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * The Rinnegan is described as specifically being the power of Hagoromo's chakra in his explanation, which is brought about by combining the chakras of Asura and Indra in a single host. This could indicate that Hagoromo was simply born with the Rinnegan, which I believe is how the situation was explained in previous accounts, which would mean that he never had a Sharingan. Likewise, it seems to me that if Hashirama had obtained Indra's chakra instead, he probably would have still obtained the Rinnegan without ever having had a Sharingan. There's also the fact that we still don't know where the Byakugan and Sharingan came from -- it's possible that they were obtained along with the power of Chakra. Given that their primary functions include the ability to observe chakra, it seems strange that they would have existed prior to mankind acquiring the power of the Divine Tree. Plus, her Sharingan is a third eye, which is just weird. Considering that Obito and Madara both obtained horns when becoming the Ten Tails' Jinchuriki, I can't help but think that these weird physical mutations are a result of the Divine Tree's chakra, not pre-existing genetic conditions. Unless Kaguya was an alien... Hrmm. At any rate, I feel like there are currently too many other possible explanations to just assume that Madara going from Mangekyō Sharingan to Rinnegan means that the Rinnegan can only evolve from a Mangekyō Sharingan. FF-Suzaku (talk) 10:12, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya's sharingan seems to be the final form rather than the rinnegan MangekyoSasuke (talk) 07:47, April 2, 2014 (UTC)