Board Thread:Naruto Discussions/@comment-34700383-20180829185752/@comment-6769189-20180831121237

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

I gave you the manga’ established differences here: Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote: I don’t have to speculate about Naruto eyes for frog sage mode. I can point to the exact moment where manga establishes to look at his eye for proof of sagehood. Similarly I can point out to you the exact moment in the manga where madara acknowledges proof of Naruto rikudo sagehood. They were proven in different ways, that is fact. Attempting to prove them in the same way results in Fallacy. Manga nor databook has any mention of Naruto’ eyes being even slightly relevant to rsm. Yet against you better judgement you insist it does. Show me where it is explicitly stated that his eye have any relevance to rsm. The same way I can prove it for his other form. Just a heads up, rikudo senjutus didn’t effect Obito’ nor madara eyes, but good luck. Manga is a visual medium. It doesnt have to tell us everything. It communicates just as much by showing us things.

Yellow-cross eyes have only ever appeared once Naruto obtained SPSM. I caan point out every single time this unique eye design showed up.(and they all corrospond to Naruto using SPSM)

Just a heads up, dojutsu like Sharingan and Rinnegan override non-dojutsu eye designs. Take a look at any time Sasuke used his Sharingan with Curse Mode active(Orochimaru's Curse Marks are a variation of Sage Transformation which is a form of Senjutsu by the way)

Do you have any explaination for Naruto's new eyes? Or why they come and go when he uses SPSM? Or are you saying they are there for shits and giggles?

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

This is wrong again. You admittedly are interpreting a shown image without context, you’re guessing. I’m not. The eyes have no proven significance. On top of all that, you failed to realize that Naruto saved guy using his rikudo hand seal. That power is not part of rsm, and that’s what madara was initially reacting to. Madara even looked at guy’ 8th gate and noticed how it managed to be preserved. Again that was done by Naruto using the rikudo seal not rsm. That power relied on rikudo chakra not rikudo senjutsu, there is a clear difference. Iirc, the seals were explained on different pages in the databook. The Yang seal doesnt give him healing powers. The Yang Seal is used with the Yin Seal to activate 6 Paths Chibaku Tensei

Naruto with just the Yellow-Cross Eyes could dodge a Limbo clone. Which he can only sense with SPSM.

Madara also doesnt directly say that it is SPS until the chapter you cited but thats because he didnt figure it out until then. In the next chapter questions exactly what kind of power up Naruto got so even though he called it 6 Paths Senjutsu. He doesnt even fully understand the ins and outs of Naruto's new abilities. He knew Naruto was different before he activated the cloak, he just didnt understand how at the time.

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

Now you’re just speculating. For one, regardless of how you attain rikudo senjutsu/ juubi chakra, with enough of it the result will always be the same. Obito, madara, hagoromo, and kaguya each gained a significant amount juubi chakra through different methods, yet the same powers resulted from it. So you’re wrong. The same powers didnt result from it though. The only 2 people to get the same abilities were Obito and Madara who used the same method of obtaining 6 Paths Senjutsu.

Kaguya didnt gain Juubi chakra. She is the Juubi.

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

You’ve restated counter 1 from the OP. You have yet to invalidate it. You ASSUME that the chakra being referred is the culmination of all tailed beasts chakra but that isnt stated anywhere. You just keep saying it is.

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

So your rebuttal is that TSOs, whos natural state is to be suspended in mid air, will somehow succumb to gravity? You have to know that isn’t accurate, right? Their state while being used is to levitate.

They do succumb to gravity. Ch. 668 p 15 the TSB Minato teleported are lying on the ground with his cloak.

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

Iirc madara had to extend his hand call his last TSOs from a distance away to throw it at guy. This didnt happen. Madara had it as a staff and reverted it back to a ball after Guy detroyed his arm. It was always at his side and he sat still while he launched it at Guy.

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

So then I guess ashura(and indra) died really young, since they were shown clinging to Naruto(and Sasuke). Ashura and Indra never manifested themselves like the 4 characters i mentioned. Moot point

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

There’s is no way to prove you’re claim wrong nor right. I could easy make a similar claim to support my own stance. Hamura and his descendants have powers of unexplained origin. You can‘t use them here because of that uncertainty. TSB are stated to come with SP Senjutsu and Hamura has them.

Even if we ignore the TSB, He also used 6 Paths Chibaku Tensei(a SP Senjutsu technique)with Hagoromo.

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

You missed the part where hagoromo explicated states more than his own chakra is required for him to reenter the living world. Madara’ torso both met and exceeded those requirements. Yet he was still weakened because he gave his power to Naruto and Sasuke. Which further proves that those TSO being produced were largely due to juubi chakra that he just acquired from madara. For starters, the translation you used makes no sense. He mentions the chakra of the ten tails and then immediately says its the chakra of the nine tails, Ashura, and Indra that allowed him to manifest.

Second, nowhere in that page did it say he made TSB's through Madara's lower half. Those are the same TSB he had in the afterlife. Madaras lower body alome didnt even have enough of Hagoromos chakra for him to manifest until Hashirama touched it.

3rd, Hagoromo being weakened has no effect on the TSB's because they are like tools, not fueled by chakra like a TBB or a Rasengan.

4th, when a character manifests, they have all their original powers and abilities. This is why Kaguya had all her Kekkei abilities even though Madara didnt have most of them. This is also evident by the fact that Hagoromo had his TSB in the afterlife even though he wasnt the Juubi's junchiriki when he died. When Obito came back from the afterlife, he only had his abilities, not ones he had while Juubito.

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

As rikudo chakra alone doesn’t produce TSOs, if that were true madara would’ve gotten it the moment he awakened rinnegan. As that was a result of achieving recreated rikudo chakra. Also edo madara would’ve gained TSOs as kabuto made him also achieve ‘fake’ rinnegan. So you’re wrong. TSB's dont come from Rinnegan. No one ever said this. Why are you bringing this up. TSB are a result of 6 Paths Senjutsu. This is why Naruto and Hamura had some.

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

You’re wrong again because kaguya could only be revived with the juubi’ power. She literally took over his vessel, and absorbed some chakra from infinite tsukuyomi. Not to mention she remained massively weakened because half her chakra was still missing. This is because she was revived entirely without hamura chakra, she was without more than half of her divided power during the 4th war. Yet she still produced a TSO variant. Which we know isn’t possible with chakra from the those captured by infinite tsukuyomi, but rather the juubi’ chakra. Kaguya's power was never literally divided between her children. They recieved half of her strength and abilities.

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

I’m not having an issue with the definition. The issue here is the lack of context, which is evident that you have. I’m not leaving anything to interpretation, nor does the OP operate in vagueness. No instead I’ve provided sources, and evidence to my statements. So while I do appreciate the link, that doesn’t help you gain context to further understand which definition is most fitting. This is why I suggested giving example of vestiges that are similar to that which describes the former biju fragments. Did you think of any? I gave 2 examples. You are projecting the exact same way dude. You are providing statements that dont match what you are saying. You are choosing the definition that suits your view even though the rest of the passage directly contradicts it.