Talk:Nature Transformation

The third kazekage
Was Iron sand a KKG? If so it probably should be in the advanced nature diagram with a question mark, because it would fit in the last spot of lightning and wind fusion. That could be the last advanced nature that the image needs, and can be confimed with this new ark naruto is on, since kabuto is resurrecting everyone. --reloader
 * Yes, it is a kekkei genkai, but no, it was never said to be an actual element. Of course, it could be revealed as one, bu so far it hasn't even been given an Xton name. —ShounenSuki (talk 12:53, December 30, 2010 (UTC)

Explosion
The kanji for Explosion is 爆発 (Bakuhatsu) not 爆發 --Leodix/My Talk/Contributions''' 04:02, January 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well actually, both are right, since they are the same kanji in different forms. I changed it as you said since that second one is the Japanese simplified version. --GoDai (talk) 05:00, January 5, 2011 (UTC)

Too much speculation
Hi!

In my opinion, the part about advanced types contains too many speculative points. For example:
 * It was never said that Shouton is an element or an advanced one. Afaik they even said it is created by crystalizing the surroundings.
 * It was never said which natures Futton and Ranton entails or if they even are advanced natures.
 * There is no sign that Enton is an adv. nature. If it is, it would be created by mixing Ka and Kaminari, since these are the only natures Sasuke possess.

I just wanted to notice that. Also, the picture is displaying the speculative parts as if they're confirmed, but since they aren't it would be better to leave them out of the picture. Also, the speculative natures should be put in an extra section. Seelentau 愛議 13:58, January 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * )Anything that's not the four basic elements (fire, water, earth, wind) are advanced nature elements, what much is known.
 * )Boil and Storm, if I remember correctly was based off what we know the users use. In for example, based off Yamato's explaination of Wood Release, using different chakra natures in each hand to produce wood, Durai preformed the same with Lightning and Water.
 * )Again, anything that's not the original four have been called advanced nature. Even if we don't understand much about it.
 * ) The advanced nature chart is all kinds of confusing to me so I'm not even going to comment on it.--TheUltimate3 ~Aspect of Wiki ~ 14:50, January 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * That would mean, Raiton is an adv. nature, too?^^ Who said that everything, that's not one of the five natures, is an adv. nature?
 * But it is speculation, nothing else. What if he has another nature that he uses for Ranton? Of course we can only go by what we know but at least we should write down that it is speculation. Seelentau 愛議 15:02, January 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * he left out lightning by accident. And it really isn't speculation it's simply a way to document everything. Since we already have basic information about the 4 basic elements then everything has to stem from them naturally. If and when the time comes for changes to be made we can move from --Cerez365 (talk) 15:08, January 7, 2011 (UTC)there


 * There's a difference between speculating and making logical conclusions. If we only ever went by what was literally stated or unambiguously shown in the series, we wouldn't be able to make a useful encyclopædia. The elements for Futton were based on the elements the Mizukage said she had and on the known combinations of Mokuton and Yōton. The elements for Ranton were stated in the Second Fanbook. Everything we aren't 100% certain of is actually worded i such a way that the uncertainty is clear. —ShounenSuki (talk 16:37, January 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * And if you actually look at the image showing the advanced natures, you'll see that every nature with an unconfirmed composition has this little question mark right besides it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:29, January 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * Okay, thank you all for answering my concerns. I understand now, why the natures are stated as they are and how you came to those conclusions. Thank you for clarifying that. I am still sure that the Shouton isn't an adv. element, since they said it in the anime, afaik. Episode 331 or so. Maybe you'd like to check that out. If not, it's okay. Seelentau 愛議 18:50, January 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * Shōton was all but explicitly said to be an advanced nature. Guren told Kakashi that he wouldn't be able to copy it with his Sharingan. The only things Sharingan can't copy is summoning techniques for animals they don't have a contract with, hiden jutsu, and kekkei genkai. There's also limitation to the stuff they can actually use as well. And everything that isn't one of the five basic natures is an advanced nature. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:59, January 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * When was it described as an adv. nature? If they said that it is one, it's fine with me but as I said, I don't remember them saying that, but rather remember them saying that it is not an adv. nature. Seelentau 愛議 19:17, January 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * It's one of those implied things you infer from previously available information, much like the components of Boil Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:00, January 7, 2011 (UTC)


 * I think what he means is...What is to say it is an advanced nature KKG and not just a regular KKG? Similar to the bone kkg user, he does not use a "bone advanced nature kkg", just a "bone kkg". Making crystal release be "crystal kkg" and not "crystal advanced nature kkg".  At least, that is what I gather he is refering to.SkyFlicker (talk) 20:11, January 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * but the fact that it's called a Release like all other advanced natures it's more than logical to assume that it's an advanced nature kkg --Cerez365 (talk) 20:18, January 7, 2011 (UTC)

What I mean is that anyone (except for me, I can't do it) could check out episode 331, when Rinji explains Guren's Shouton, and tell us what he said, if it is a KG/adv- nature or not. That would solve the mystery and answer my question. And that it is called a release doesn't make it one officialy, since it's a filler (just like the movie-Hyouton) Seelentau 愛議 21:21, January 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * So, any news 'bout that? I'd really like to clarify this but I have no way to watch the said episode at the moment. Seelentau 愛議 22:28, January 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * I didn't watch, but I don't think we have to. You are questioning something solely on the basis of the one specific thing about it not being explicitly spelled out. We consider everything mentioned in the series to consider that one thing is one thing and not another. Considering everything that is known about chakra natures and kekkei genkai, this is, without a question, an advanced chakra nature. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:48, January 14, 2011 (UTC)

Explosion release
Since dust release is labeled as "earth and another unspecified nature" because the Tsuchikage can use earth release, would it be alright to label explosion release as "earth and another unspecified nature" as well? Since Deidara could use earth release.--Red-kun (talk) 23:04, January 7, 2011 (UTC)
 * Deidara is the only reason why Explosion is listed as a possible earth and lightning. For all we know, it could just as easily be fire and lightning, which I think makes more sense. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:20, January 7, 2011 (UTC)

Yes but if Deidara can use earth release doesn't that mean earth is one of the components of explosion release? Otherwise that would basically be saying Deidara has 3 natures. I know that's a possibility but wouldn't it be less speculative to list earth as one of the components?--Red-kun (talk) 23:55, January 7, 2011 (UTC)

Deidara having three (technically four: Explosion, both its components and Earth) isn't so far fetched, it would be the same case as Kurotsuchi. Normally, I would agree with you, but Deidara complicates the situation by using the kinjutsu he stole. We had this idea of how Deidara used exploding clay, we just didn't know that the exploding chakra was an actual nature. With the kinjutsu changes things, because as far as we know, Earth Release is used only to animate the clay. Deidara has always been a complicated character. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:07, January 8, 2011 (UTC)

Bakuton must have Earth Release since Sasuke Lightning's chakra can cancel it and can´t have Wind Release beacause wind overpowers lightning and lightning overpowers explosion. The other element can't be fire, wind or water. In conclusion Bakuton = Doton + Raiton.

Well it could also just mean that, Deidara's Clay is Earth-based and he infuses it with this Explosion Release (In this case Fire + Lightning) and because the Clay is Earth, Lightning cancels it out, making it impossible to Deidara to make it explode. KenjiNitari (talk) 12:47, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

Bloodline Expansions
Okay, with this new development, should there be a new section for Bloodline Expansions, the combination of three base elements? Not to mention a redo of the advanced element chart.--Kagi mizu -Seeya 'round 06:31, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

As much as the revelation of 3 element combinations are a mixed blessing. I wonder if Kurotsuchi has a bloodline expansion as well with her having three elements and being Onoki's granddaughter.Umishiru (talk) 06:36, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

The chapter mentioned that only the Second and Third Tsuchikage were able to do that, so I wouldn't say so. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:19, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

So is it still safe to agree that maybe gaaras is still in the running for wind and earth only, and dust release is now a 3 element jutsu. And does the manga suggest that the second earth kage has the exact same ability as the third?I still cannot believe something called dust has fire fused in that make absoulty no sence--reloader.

If your burn something, it is reduced to ashes. The connection isn't that absurd. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:08, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm despite them saying it was the only one I wanna believe their will be more. As well dust being earth wind and fire isn't absurd i mean the vast majority of dust is just dead skin anyway. The way I look at is it makes more sense than with lightning or water in it (especially water). The element I wanted to see was ash element but that dream died with Asumas combustible ash cloud.Kordeleski (talk) 16:46, February 10, 2011 (UTC)

Advanced Natures
In the "Advanced Natures" section, the terms "Advanced Nature" and "Elementally-recomposed nature" are mentioned, but they have no kanji or references to where they were mentioned. Perhaps we should change the section to "Kekkei Genkai Types" or "Simultaneous Nature Tranformation"? After all, the manga did explain that Ice chakra is chakra that has been simultaneously transformed into Water chakra and Wind chakra at the same time, giving it the properties of both natures as well as new properties. --GoDai (talk) 19:37, January 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * ↑This. Are there any references for the term elementally-recomposed nature type? Seelentau 愛議 00:42, May 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * I do believe the manga simply uses the term 'nature transformation' to refer to the different chakra natures. E.g.:
 * What we call 'advanced natures' have never been given an actual official term in the manga, as far as I remember. —ShounenSuki (talk 08:45, May 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * What we call 'advanced natures' have never been given an actual official term in the manga, as far as I remember. —ShounenSuki (talk 08:45, May 12, 2011 (UTC)

Crystal Release/Blaze Release???
What i don't get is, why is Crystal Release and Blaze Release categorized as Advanced Elements?

Crystal Release is from a Filler Arc, meaning it's non-cannon and so, shouldn't be considered true until showed in the Manga.

Blaze Realse has been proved to NOT be an Advanced Element. It's just Sasuke manipulating Amaterasu with his Sharingan, no mixing of elements.

I think we should put Blaze Release in another categoty and put Crystal release somewhere else.

KenjiNitari (talk) 12:47, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

Every " -Release" is an element. → Crystal and Blaze are elements. Every element that isn't one of the five basic is an advanced one. → Crystal and Blaze are advanced elements.

We list things from all media, not just the manga. There is very little available info on Blaze Release, which differs from what we know about nature transformation. With the information we have, it is definitely an advanced nature. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:34, February 3, 2011 (UTC)

I know Blaze Release is an Element, but it's not made by any mixing of two elements, that's why i think we should catelogize it somewhere else. KenjiNitari (talk) 12:49, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

We don't know that. For all we know, it could be made by mixing Fire and Yin, or Fire and Yang. Yin and Yang are elements as well. There's no where else to list it where it would make sense. Also, you're supposed to sign your posts with four "~". Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 11:04, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, could be, i completely forgot about Yin and Yand releases KenjiNitari (talk) 12:49, February 4, 2011 (UTC)

I don't think of Yin and yang as releases and won't until I see something about it as an element. The reason for this is that Naruto is a simpleton at heart and barley learned the wind element and yet he can manipulate two other releases just like that I see them as shades of intent not elements and with them out of the way blaze just seems like fire to me.

EDIT: Yes I did make a mistake while yin and yang are infact releases they are not really elements they are basic chakra which is what is molded into the elements with hand signs.

Kordeleski (talk) 16:53, February 10, 2011 (UTC)

Your point? Lava is just earth heated up to a certain temperature, Ice is just water lowered to a certain temperature, Boil is just water heated to scolding temperatures, scorch is just heat waves. When you break it down, they are just derivatives of one of the elements in concept. Blaze is Amaterasu, which is fire at hot as the sun, for all we know it could be Fire + Lighting.It was given the -ton prefix and till Kishi reveals more about it, it stays.Umishiru (talk) 17:00, February 10, 2011 (UTC)

How ever my mistake did hold some value yes the elements are just slightly edit forms of the baser forms but with the basic elements all they can really do is manipulate them they need the second element to form and manipulate the advanced elements.

>.> I'm gonna leave the value statement alone but all I am saying is that regulating it to "oh it just fire" is not paying attention to the manga at all. On Yin and Yang, it has already been said that they are manipulated through Izanagi, Medical Ninjutsu, and the source of Nara, Akimichi, Yamanaka clan jutsu, genjutsu. So yes they can be focused on.Umishiru (talk) 17:13, February 10, 2011 (UTC)

>>> OK my original point was that yin and yang were not elements and my logic was Say you mold your natural chakra into fire style. Then you throw in more natural chakra doesn't that seem like your watering it down. Aswell what is the speculation for Fire + Wind because blaze seems more likely to be those elements should it be a release. (since a back draft involving air can create super hot flames)Kordeleski (talk) 17:25, February 10, 2011 (UTC)

Edit: Ok maybe scorch makes more sense in that spot

Yin and Yang are elements however they are elements inherent to chakra, which can be combined into to normal chakra, focused on for the jutsu listed in my previous comment, or merged into Yin-Yang release.Umishiru (talk) 02:35, February 14, 2011 (UTC)

I thought that being a release it does not mean it has to be an element or advanced element. How can we know that the release is not just the manipulation in a desired way, for example the blaze release in which before the Enton Release the amaterasu was not in his desired control but just flames wherever he placed the sight on and when he used the Release he could manipulated them with shape and desired structure. And by the way, does everybody has to go bananas with advance nature combination? Is just an speculation you shouldnt argue about points of view until it is confirmed in canon am i right?? ToonLiger (talk) 15:35, February 14, 2011 (UTC)

Release means an element is being involed. We know its not a shape manipulation since usually the user has used 1 of teh elements required to make at least once, Amaterasu is an enimga, it could be that Blaze release is granted by the MS, but till we know more, its just speculation, we go by what the manga saids, from there we have been very accurate, inwhich case everyones thesis one Wind _ Earth was wrong but that was never writen in the article so it doesn't matter. Advanced alement users usually also use the elements that make it up, so we can easily deduce the combinations, due to how Blaze release was brought out, a databook is needed.Umishiru (talk) 16:00, February 14, 2011 (UTC)

Advanced Affinity?
I'm sorry I ask so many questions but is it possible to have an advanced affinity? Izuma51 (talk) 03:20, February 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * If by advanced affinity you mean an advanced nature as an affinity like Naruto has wind as his affinity, we don't know. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:58, February 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * Judging by the ease of use, I'd suspect that almost all kekkei genkai users effectively have an affinity for their advanced nature. With the possible exception of implanted ones like Danzo. ZeroSD (talk) 15:03, February 13, 2011 (UTC)

Dark really Meian?
I searched how Dark is said in Japanese. From two sources, I didnt found "meian" or kanji "冥暗". Instead, when the two kanji are separated, they both means dark, and when combined, shade or gloom. So i want to ask, is it really the correct, or a typo of someone? VolteMetalic (talk) 21:17, July 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * 冥暗 really does mean darkness. The dictionary I use says:


 * mei-an (冥暗／冥▽闇)
 * 1 That which is dark. Darkness.
 * "Even with the light that the Moon and Sun grant me, I am facing a life of —" (Taiheki, chapter 4)
 * 2 The inability to reach enlightenment in the underworld.
 * "If you show filial piety, I can be saved from —" (Nō: The Fisherman)


 * めい‐あん【冥暗／冥▽闇】
 * 1 暗いこと. くらやみ.
 * 「月日の光をも見給はねば、一生―の中に向かって」〈太平記・四〉
 * 2 冥土(めいど)の迷い.
 * 「君孝行たらば、わが―を助けよ」〈謡・海人〉


 * —ShounenSuki (talk 22:02, July 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * My dictionary says otherwise. Separated "mei" means dark, and "an" means darkness".VolteMetalic (talk) 22:13, July 23, 2011 (UTC)
 * Why would you separate the kanji of a word? Separately, the kanji 寿 and 司 mean 'longevity' and 'office', respectively; together they mean 'sushi'. —ShounenSuki (talk 22:36, July 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * Hmm... my source is this link. I dont know than.VolteMetalic (talk) 22:56, July 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * I repeat my question: why would you use a kanji dictionary for a word consisting of two kanji? Do you look at the meaning of each individual syllable of English words when figuring out their meaning as well? —ShounenSuki (talk 23:39, July 23, 2011 (UTC)


 * English and Japanese are little different in this :) I am not sure what you are saying now, about the "use a kanji dictionary for a word consisting of two kanji"?VolteMetalic (talk) 10:05, July 24, 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm saying it's ridiculous that you're trying to figure out the basic meaning of a word by seeing what each individual kanji means, instead of simply looking up the actual word in a normal dictionary.
 * For instance, take a word like 当たり前. The individual kanji mean 'hit'/'success' and 'in front'/'before', respectively. The whole word means 'obvious'/'common'. The individual meanings of kanji often have little to no bearing on the combined meaning of the whole word. What you're doing is almost like looking up individual syllables of English words to see what they mean when combined together. —ShounenSuki (talk 12:26, July 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * For example chairman, huh? ;) What does the ▽ mean, btw? Is it a Kanji, too? Oo Seelentau 愛議 14:10, July 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * 'Chairman' is a nice example ^^
 * The ▽ indicates that a kanji reading is used that isn't included in the jōyō kanji list. In this case, 闇 is only given the reading 'yami' on this list. Since the reading 'an' is used here, the ▽ is prefixed to the kanji. —ShounenSuki (talk 14:45, July 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * When i was searching for word "dark" in English, no results showed me it is "meian".VolteMetalic (talk) 20:09, July 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Did you use that dictionary you linked to? —ShounenSuki (talk 20:41, July 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes, and the closest to it was "mei-suru". Mei-an/Meian isnt there.VolteMetalic (talk) 17:50, July 25, 2011 (UTC)

Well an important aspect that should be considered here is that "dark" or "darkness" usually translates to "暗" or "闇", both translating to Darkness, "Yami" and Darkness Release, "Anton." --GoDai (talk) 20:28, July 25, 2011 (UTC)
 * Actually no, that isn't even remotely the reason why VolteMetalic didn't find 冥暗. The real reason is very simply: he was using a kanji dictionary. Kanji dictionaries only list the meanings and pronunciations of individual kanji. Of course he wouldn't find a word written with two kanji in there. —ShounenSuki (talk 17:28, July 26, 2011 (UTC)


 * And Google Translate isnt good enought to find it either :PVolteMetalic (talk) 20:48, July 26, 2011 (UTC)
 * Google Translate isn't a dictionary either. Try one of those, you'd be surprised. Well, if you find a good one. 冥暗 isn't the most common term, given it's religious connotations. I doubt many simple English–Japanese dictionaries would list the word. You'd have more success with a Japanese–Japanese dictionary, which is where the entry I gave above came from. —ShounenSuki (talk 22:41, July 26, 2011 (UTC)

Rinnegan
Is it correct that the Rinnegan grants the user ALL natures or does it only HELP him learning all natures? I always thought it's the latter, but the article says the first is correct... Seelentau 愛議 11:12, August 1, 2011 (UTC)

Well i was wondering about this myself. I was thinking that perhaps Rinnegan only gives you an affinity too all five chakra natures instead of only one which you usually has. Imagine if you have Rinnegan and the ability to mix Chakras, wuold be awesome. KenjiNitari (talk) 11:56, August 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * From what I understand it allows you to learn anything that isn't Hiden or Kekkei Genkai. From what Jiraiya said it seemingly grants them all natures. Whether or not they want to learn to use it, is their business--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 12:13, August 1, 2011 (UTC)