Talk:Natural Energy Baton

Necessary?
Is this article really needed? Seems a bit unnecessary/basic and I don't really see any qualifying factors that make it stand out. Hitting someone to get rid of Sage Mode training imbalances seem a bit too minor. -Ventillate { About Me | Message | My Work } 13:14, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
 * While I do think it's a rather unique tool, I do agree it's very minor. Are we going to make an article on the special oil as well? Other than getting this to show up in a couple infoboxes, the paragraph in Sage Mode's article already tells all there is about it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:58, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

I'd like to know what exactly the criteria are for what determines what deserves a page or not. My intentions were to highlight the tool as it was unique and featured unique properties. I do agree, however, that the oil is as good as any landmark and could settle being added to the Toad Mountain and Sage Mode pages. So would you say it is preferable to simply make a note on Fukasaku's page about the Baton? Is this the reason we've not made a page for other things like Isshiki's rods? Don't forget pages like Shadow Clone Summoning Scroll, Mechanical Bird, and Cat Ears. I can't say this is outside of our normal practise. --Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 04:19, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * The criteria is whatever Omni wants to do, also seeing as not enough people care enough to discuss or vote about these things. The excuse that articles cannot exist because most of the content can be found elsewhere is nonsense. Has never stopped us before, or rather, it does randomly through article bias. I believe the article is unique and should remain, or we should go through and also delete many other equipment articles.Munchvtec (talk) 14:17, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * You say other articles should be deleted, but if ever somebody calls your bluff and proposes they be deleted, you consistently argue against your own suggestion. Weird.
 * There's nothing to stop the wiki from having an article for every topic under the sun. An article for glasses? Obviously they're essential on some level to the combat abilities of those who wear them. Naruto's orange shirt? It's iconic and has even memorably been worn by Boruto; that's two main characters wearing the same article of clothing. Blood? Most characters have shed it at one point or another, and it has various in-universe applications that could be indexed. Oxygen? I suppose fire jutsu wouldn't work without it, and it apparently can be found on the surface of the moon. And so on.
 * The problem, of course, is these would be dumb articles. None of them would have any deep Naruto-specific nuance to be detailed; they would merely exist for the sake of existing. I personally find it annoying if, when reading a wiki, I'm linked to an article that is no more informative on its subject than the article that linked to it was. Would that happen here? I think so:
 * "The toads also have a special staff that, when struck with, knocks all the natural energy out of the gatherer, thus reversing any transformations before they can become permanent and the user turns to stone."
 * "Fukasaku wields a staff capable of beating the natural energy out of a person on contact."
 * "Fukasaku beat him (and his shadow clones) with a staff to keep him from taking in too much natural energy."
 * This article does not tell me anything that these three sentences do not also tell me. This article's only unique piece of information is the chapter/episode debut, but this would be easily remedied by having references in those other articles (which the wiki should be using anyway). So nothing of value would be lost if this article were deleted.
 * To return to the broader issue: the wiki will always have some level of arbitrariness between the articles it does and doesn't keep. We could try to create some sort of minimum standard, but those can be gamed if someone tries hard enough; when I was a sysop, I'd sometimes try using article length as a minimum requirement, but it turns out people can write breathtakingly long paragraphs about characters' appearances in order to inflate page size. But just because the line is difficult to pin down doesn't mean it isn't there, and the existence of other bad articles should not be used as a rationale to create/keep additional bad articles. If somebody feels that an article doesn't have enough content to justify its existence, they should propose it be deleted; I'd probably agree, and Munchvtec probably would not. ~SnapperTo 22:32, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Not a bluff. You bring up a silly argument, and I'll humor it. None of that is the same as this, and you ultimately agree however, that wasn't your point of course. I will argue against a deletion when that deletion affects consistency, it has little to do with my personal feelings. I'm hardly around on this wiki these days. If more than two or three people want to actually discuss a change in consistency, and they follow through with it, then it is what it is, and it should be carried out across the wiki. You guys let less pass, simple as that. You guys are also the same people who claim other articles should not be used as examples. Weird. Create a consistency. Nice to see you btw, Snapper. Hope you've been well. Wonder whatever happened to that big discussion about a new crat. Munchvtec (talk) 22:43, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I only remember these discussions, where you proposed some character articles be deleted. One additional user agreed with you, I agreed with you, so I deleted them. But then you'll notice you later said, "they should probably all be created again." This led me to believe that you don't actually want any article deleted for any reason.
 * Other articles shouldn't be used as evidence for/against in deletion discussions because it ends up creating a loop:
 * Somebody proposes that Article A be deleted.
 * Somebody else opposes the deletion on the grounds that Article B exists; they make no claims that Article A is actually good, only that it's no more bad than Article B.
 * So then somebody says that's a valid point and they propose Article B also be deleted.
 * But then somebody comes along and says you can't delete Article B because Article A exists.
 * In this scenario, there's evidently no dispute that both articles are unnecessary, but they inexplicably can't be deleted because they both exist at the same time. To prevent this circular gridlock from happening, articles should be evaluated on their own merits, not the merits of other meritless articles. ~SnapperTo 23:11, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Where does the discussion about the criteria for a good and bad article begin? What makes a good article? While you have a point, I don't agree that anyone is arguing under an unrelated premise. Look above, I used the example of the Shadow Clone Summoning Scroll to make a point that articles of similar "importance" are not receiving the same treatment. Overall, I'd like to discuss a standard to prevent the discouraging of new articles on the basis of "I don't feel like I like this one". Consistency is definitely important and shouldn't be broken because of a few personal preferences. --Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 23:23, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Editors generally only monitor Special:RecentChanges and only become aware of content from that. This article, because it was just created, has gained attention. The scroll article, because it was created in 2011 and hasn't been edited since 2018, has largely been forgotten about. So it isn't so much that this article is receiving undue scrutiny as it is the scroll article is receiving none.
 * I mentioned before that I think articles should be more informative about their topic than the articles that link to that topic would be. I've used that standard in previous deletion discussions and believe it can be applied consistently for any subject. This article doesn't meet that standard, the three articles you linked don't meet that standard, and I'm sure a number of other articles on the wiki also do not meet it. Ergo, these and other articles can and should be deleted. ~SnapperTo 23:57, 19 November 2021 (UTC)
 * I'm convinced you don't know what you're talking about, as there are quite a few examples of you not following that "standard" yourself, again showing that certain people here can and will do what they want and get away with it nearly every time. You claim people can just fluff out shitty articles with tons of unnecessary content; this more so falls in line with your talkpage comments, I feel. A question, Snapper. Could you take a look at a few articles here - Hagiri, Kō (Anbu), Baraki, Genba, Menō (dragon), Gigi - and tell me who created them, what traffic they garner and what exactly they have that cannot or hasn't been placed in the novel articles? You brought up the Academy students from years ago, which I find ironic because some of them can be identified with images and would have more content than these articles created by I don't know who.
 * So is the actual reason here because it's unnamed? Because you just don't like it? Snapper and Omni, and whomever? Because I truly fail to understand the "reasonings" given. Munchvtec (talk) 12:54, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Wow. I don't show up for a day and suddenly there's a discussion well underway. I wish people would engage like this every time I start a topic on something asking for community input. Maybe then they wouldn't feel I just do whatever what I want. If I had done just whatever I wanted all the time, I'm pretty sure I'd have been blocked years back, because there have been instances of things I didn't agree with majority over the years. Anyway, about articles, my first instinct to question the place of articles such as these, is among other reasons, including some that Snapper mentioned, the fact the wiki has successfully condensed this kind of information in the past, maintaining the information while avoiding such small articles. Off the top of my head, I can mention the "other members" sections we have for some clans, like the Akimichi and Hyūga for several existing, but non notable clansmen, the poison article listing the several types of poison, and puppet article mentioning minor puppets as well. Caveat for some mentioned articles so far, specifically novel related: I can't comment on those because I have never read novels. At least some of those linked are marked as stubs, which I take it to mean there is information about them in novels, but because those aren't quite as popular, fewer editors are able to properly write them. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:11, 20 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Being unnamed doesn't help a topic in my eyes. If the creators can't be bothered to give something a name, they must not think it's too important. I mean, Kishimoto could have called this thing a "Toad Truncheon" or a "Senjutsu Scepter" or a "Gamaton" (which is obviously a clever portmanteau). Yet he didn't. So sad.
 * But being unnamed isn't an indictment. Here is an article about an unnamed topic. I created it, so obviously its existence is due solely to my own biases and lack of respect for the wiki's integrity. Really, the entire article is an exercise in vanity, about how many ways I can say the same thing over and over again because I love the sound of my own typing. The fact that it happens to be a complicated topic is completely unrelated. No, it exists exclusively because I revel in being the exception to the very same standards I hold others to.
 * Meno and Gigi would be able to justify their existences if they were properly fleshed out; the reason I haven't done so yet is because I'm a delightful combination of lazy and big-headed. Ko and Hagigri, though both are obviously minor topics, have slightly too much information to be included elsewhere without being off-topic to those other articles. Baraki and Genba could reasonably be merged with bingo book. I could volunteer to perform the merge if you'd like, but I speculate that you don't truly want these articles to be merged anywhere and only bring them up because you can't came up with any real arguments in favor of keeping this article and so must rely on whataboutisms instead. Either way, LMK. ~SnapperTo 00:23, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * Your very first bit isn't a very good argument, now is it? We know very well that they arbitrarily name things, like I've already mentioned. Minor characters in the databooks being an amazing example. Redaku Reincarnation Ninjutsu is also a poor example. While you created it, we all know it has plenty of content that isn't all in one place on the novel articles. Its naming convention is also something we have used on this wiki for years, and aside from that, we have been making unnamed jutsu articles for years as well, because jutsu are generally more unique and deserve mention. Your Ko and Hagiri point is something I like, and should be used in other discussions actually, even if you only believe it because they are named. You can go ahead and merge Baraki and Genba if you want, no issue there.
 * One thing we have always looked at with these tool articles, is are they unique in any way? Are they not a normal ninja tool? And will they show in infoboxes? Otherwise we typically will delete the articles and redirect to a Wikipedia page. I don't disagree that this article is verging on the line of not really being unique or mattering, but again our consistency over the years absolutely should be brought up and used when it comes to new creations. We can go back and forth all day about how you or Omni do not believe consistency to be all that important. Munchvtec (talk) 12:26, 21 November 2021 (UTC)
 * One need only look at all the articles about minor topics that I haven't created to see that I'm plenty consistent.
 * In any case, everyone seems to have acknowledged this article is unnecessary, so Omnibender should feel comfortable deleting it. This discussion is probably also sufficient to delete the three other tool articles linked previously. ~SnapperTo 03:41, 22 November 2021 (UTC)