Talk:Kaguya Ōtsutsuki

Rinnegan confirmed
As of the last chapter Sasuke has obtained the same pattern in one of his eyes and it was identified as a Rinnegan. I think that confirms this unique eye pattern is a mix of Sharingan and Rinnegan. Shadow Abyss (talk) 14:25, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except it was called Sharingan in Kaguya's case and Rinnegan in Sasuke's. I think we must not be seeing the whole picture yet.--Elveonora (talk) 15:17, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * It makes it hard to document to say the least. It almost seems as if they're using the two names interchangeably at this point. I'm not entirely sure where the information should be added.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:20, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, as stated by both Ultimate (I believe? Or was it Foxie?) and Seel, having Rinnegan also means having the Sharingan. But that doesn't explain why:


 * Sage had just the Rinnegan, unless he also had the Sharingan (like Madara) but just wasn't shown using it
 * Madara has both but has to switch between the two
 * Sasuke has both merged in one eye and doesn't have to switch

The manga is getting more confusing each chapter.--Elveonora (talk) 15:24, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

I would think the most recent information would take precedence also Kaguya's eye on her forehead was never directly called the Sharingan. it was only stated that Kaguya possesed the power of the Sharingan as well as the Byakugan.

Viz translated it like this. "Mother possed the power of Sharingan as well as Byakugan She user"

So I would think it would be pretty logical too list Kaguya and the Juubi as users of the Rinnegan since it was given an official name in the most recent chapter.--Thdyingbreed (talk) 18:42, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Kaguya's was called Sharingan. Sasuke's was called Rinnegan. That's all we know. So Kaguya gets listed for Sharingan and Sasuke's for Rinnegan until we know more. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 19:40, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

They have the exact same eye it isn't possible for one too be a Rinnegan and the other just a Sharingan and it would look very contradictory too have too people who possess the same eye and only have one person listed as a user for the Dojutsu.

All retirate it again Kaguya's Dojutsu was never directly called the Sharingan prior too this chapter it was only stated it had the power of the Sharingan.

No translation refers too it as the Sharingan only that it possess's the power of one even MS/MP that are known for there awful mistranslations got that part right.

Which we've seen is possible even with a normal given how Madara is able to use his Susanoo with his Rinnegan and was able to switch back to his EMS at one point.

This chapter we were given a name for it and that is the Rinnegan this really shouldn't be that hard too put two and two together and figure out that it is the Rinnegan.--Thdyingbreed (talk) 20:28, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Eh... every Rinnegan is a Sharingan, so Hagoromo's statement wasn't wrong. • Seelentau 愛議 21:04, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

It was a Sharingan but it's not currently a Sharingan anymore Kishi even made a point of reinforcing that when Madara stated too Obito that his Rinnegan isn't a Sharingan anymore it's a Rinnegan they are distinct Dojutsu's.

We know what it is now which is a Rinnegan and as such Kaguya should be listed a user just like how Sasuke who posses the same eye is.--Thdyingbreed (talk) 03:08, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Actually the sage did not state kaguya had sharingan, he actually stated that she had the power of sharingan, not sharingan itself. I think the user above has point. And off subject Madara doesnt have to exactly switch between sharingan and rinnegan to use their abilities. The manga shows that madara does have to activate his rinnegan to use its abilities, but he doesnt have switch to sharingan to use its abilities, he summons susanoo when his rinnegan was activated. Another note is that madara has been shown to use sharingan abilities without physically having his eyes, such as summoning his susanoo without actually having his eyes, however it does show that he does physically need and has to activate his rinnegan to use it.--Ankhael (talk) 04:11, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya was said to use both "dōryuko", with is essentially a synonym to dōjutsu, meaning she had Sharingan and Byakugan, no "she had the power of the X, but not the X per se". Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 05:33, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Im pretty sure Kaguya's 3rd eye is in fact a Rinnegan not Sharingan seeing as it looks the same as the the Ten Tails eye and also Sasukes Rinnegan. Seeing as it is the final form of the sharingan and possesses all of its techniques it would make sense that she would have the original Dojustu seeing as the sharingan is a watered down version of it/earlier stage of its development. I think in the manga when they stated she also possesed the Sharingan they were just referring to the techniques tied to it aka the Tsukuyomi. Also it stated that other than the Shinju's eye hers is the only other one to be able to cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi (thx to her Byakugan being able to amplify its distance and power) therefore her Dojutsu would have to at least be the Rinnegan or a more advanced verion of it. And again hers looks just like Sasukes and the Mangekyō Sharingan does have different appearances with different users so it wouldnt surprise me if the Rinnegan did too. Joshuagallent (talk) 05:45, April 17, 2014 (UTC) Joshuagallent (talk) 08:43, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Except hers was called Sharingan. And Madara's Rinnegan looked exactly the same as Hagoromo's, so no on the Mangekyo like variation between users. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 05:58, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

But Someone posted earlier stating the manga said she had the "power" of the sharingan not actually stating that she physically had one? Joshuagallent (talk) 08:11, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Again: Every Rinnegan is a Sharingan. Every Mangekyō Sharingan is a Sharingan, too. We knew that the Rinnegan is the peak of the Sharingan since foREVer now, there's really no problem here. Kaguya had the Rinnegan and thus the Sharingan, Sasuke has the Rinnegan and thus the Sharingan. Simple as that. • Seelentau 愛議 08:13, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Agreed thats what i was saying lol Joshuagallent (talk) 08:44, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

So ignoring which was called which, it's cool and all Seel, but still:
 * why did Kaguya and the Shinju's and Sasuke's "Rinnegan" have the Sharingan tomoe but Hagoromo and Madara's don't? Also does that mean we list Kaguya and Shinju as Rinnegan users as well and Hagoromo as a Sharingan user?--Elveonora (talk) 10:44, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

I think some need to clearly go back and read chapter 671 page 8. The Sage clearly states "My Mother, beside the Byakugan, Possess's the Sharingan's "power". It was a gruesome eye "power", and she used it on people. In that statment He is clearly and only referring to the "power" of sharingan hence (gruesome power) Eternal Tsukyomi not sharingan itself. She used the gruesome power of sharingan --> eternal tsukyomi. Look at the characteristics of her third eye and how it looks. You cannot ignore those details of her eye. If it was a sharingan and i mean specifically "sharingan" like uchiha characteristics then it would have looked like a sharingan. Sure i get the concept you have above, saying that rinnegan is a sharingan, but that doesnt exactly apply in all cases, maybe in kaguya case. Kishimoto wouldn't be that off to say that sasuke who clearly has a rinnegan with the same characteristics as kaguya's third eye, is rinnegan, and then say in kaguya's case its only sharingan, that would not make a lick of sense. Kaguya has the rinnegan, the didnt specifically say that she physically had sharingan..--Ankhael (talk) 12:13, April 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * "Every Rinnegan is a Sharingan."
 * So, Nagato has a Sharingan?--~Ultimate Supreme  15:20, April 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * Being that Nagato's Rinnegan was originally Madara's.....Umishiru (talk) 15:23, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * I would say yes, but until we know more, that statement only applies to the Tomoe Rinnegan. It was called both, so it is both. • Seelentau 愛議 15:45, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah he only meant that she had the power of sharingan. --Ankhael (talk) 16:22, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah... no. Sorry dude, but just... no. • Seelentau 愛議 16:23, April 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think life will just be easier if we keep them character specific, at least until the volume is released. Kaguya's is a Sharingan, Sasuke's is a Rinnegan. Party happy dance.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:54, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

say wha??, really Lol, but the manga states that she has the power of sharingan Lol,. Oh alright I forget how naruto wiki is now Lol, speculate until the next chapter reveals what it sometimes already reveal. We'll wait on this one. It's not like I can do anything anyways LOL party happy dance!!!--Ankhael (talk) 23:04, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

Since people are so intent on having Kaguya listed as a Sharingan user why don't we just list her as both since the Rinnegan evolves from the Sharingan.

Either way it doesn't change the fact that the Dojutsu that Sasuke/Kaguya/Juubi all share was called a Rinnegan and she should be listed a user as a Rinnegan because of that.--Thdyingbreed (talk) 01:20, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

She had Sharingan and Rinnegan. But she was using the Sharingans powers with her Tomoe Rinnegan hence Hagoromo talking about the eye and Infinite Tsukuyomi at the same time... that is the only logical thing, especially when the same eye is in Sasuke yet it was BLATANTLY called Rinnegan by Madara, when talking about the eye directly. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 02:03, April 20, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya has Sharingan and Byakugan. Her eye powers were called Sharingan and Byakugan. NOT Rinnegan. Something that is a big problem with people arguing stuff is that lots of people come here repeating the words of the scanlations. Scanlations have mistakes. We see them week in week out. If they didn't, we wouldn't nearly as many discussions when a chapter comes out. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:45, April 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * But it WASN'T called SHARINGAN the text said POWER OF THE SHARINGAN. Basically, it NEVER said that she HAD THE SHARINGAN but it's POWER. That is an important difference. Even when you translate the raws, it was POWER OF THE SHARINGAN. She was never actually stated to have it.


 * Having it's POWER and having the actual object are 2 different things.--Deathmailrock (talk) 19:24, April 24, 2014 (UTC)

What are you, slow? You clearly haven't been paying attention to any of discussions about this topic. The Japanese raw stated that Kaguya had the Sharingan eye itself, the English scan was a mistake. We follow what the raw states and not the scans for they make mistakes. Unless it is explicitly stated otherwise that Kaguya has the Rinnegan, stop trying to bring up a debate that is already dead. WindStar7125 (talk) 19:37, April 24, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125


 * Did anyone in the discussion state that she had the sharingan in the raw?Not that I read..... Did you actually translate the raw?--Deathmailrock (talk) 02:28, April 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * I did. She has the power of the Sharingan. This was said while an eye was shown which resembles the Sharingan, only with more Tomoe. You don't say that someone has the power of x, while showing something completely unrelated to X. I don't understand why you're so desperate about her not having the Sharingan, but it doesn't change anything. It's not our fault if people lack basic comprehension skills. It was called Sharingan with nine Tomoe and in Kaguya's head, it was called Rinnegan with (most likely) six Tomoe, while in Sasuke's head. That's how we're gonna keep it until new information comes up. It doesn't matter if you like that or not, you can sit alone in your room all day drawing eyes and calling them Rinnegan, I don't care. But please don't let your personal rage flow into wiki-related discussions. • Seelentau 愛議 02:39, April 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * So that eye has the power of the sharingan......... that eye having the power of the sharingan doesn't mean that it actually is the sharingan..... showing that eye was so that we knew what it looked like and the words were stating it's power not it's name...... It's not personal rage, it wasn't called a sharingan.... it's like a snack, just because it tastes like an apple doesn't mean it is an apple.... power of is different from actually being that thing.... because Naruto was said to look like Minato, does that mean he is Minato..... that terms power of seems to compare rather than name. It's because this is a wiki why this issue is so important. It looks like the rinnegan with tomeo--Deathmailrock (talk) 03:25, April 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, I'm putting a stop to this. Seel translated the Raws. It was not called the "power of the Rinnegan", but, in fact, the "power of the Sharingan". Sharingan is what it was called and you can deny it all day, in bold, italics, underlines, and in rainbow colors, for all I care, but the matter is settled. Kaguya's was called Sharingan, Sasuke's Rinnegan. So that's what they, individually, are. That is the end of the discussion, because, frankly, its getting out of hand. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 04:25, April 26, 2014 (UTC)

To add to this, I'd like to point out again that we're in the final phase of an ongoing manga. Therefore, inconsistencies likes this are to be expected. Only because we call her eye a Sharingan and Sasuke's eye a Rinnegan now, doesn't mean that it won't ever change. We have very little information about the recent revelations, so even if we're not completely right with what we're stating, you aren't, either. No one right now besides Kishimoto knows the bigger picture. That's why discussions like this aren't helpful to the wiki as they were, say, a year ago. Most of what we knew has been overthrown for good, yet people try to fit recent revelations in what they know already. This leads to even more confusion, which is why I repeatedly said to wait with adding unnecessary speculation. Long story short, what Fox said. • Seelentau 愛議 09:39, April 26, 2014 (UTC)

what has become of wiki, not to offend anyone but are you guys choosing to be stupid? I'm not being funny here even though it's a little humorous, I'm actually wondering how can you misread a statement from the manga or any reading material for that matter. Let me give an example here and some answers choices, let say I stated that "I had the "power of Naruto"... A. Does that makes me naruto? Or B. Does it just mean I had the powers/abilities of naruto?--Ankhael (talk) 22:02, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

Go read my first comment in this topic again. If you still don't get it, go read it again. Your argument fails because it hangs on a mistranslation. The term used for what Kaguya had is a synonym to "dōjutsu", and has been used in the manga at least as far back as Five Kage Summit arc. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:12, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

Ah the old so call translation mistake. Except every website that shows the manga even naruto viz, which is a very reliable website even translate that she was said to have the power of sharingan. A similar situation emerge about Sasuke's eye. Naruto Viz translated that madara referred Sasuke's eye as the "one eyed rinnegan" which is pretty strange. But it wouldn't long before the manga reveals the name of the "third eye" on madara and kaguya's forehead. Im pretty sure the next chapter is going to give the name of that third eye.--Ankhael (talk) 22:44, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

You're not reading what I'm saying. I'm talking about the term 瞳力, "dōryuko". Hagoromo uses it to describe Kaguya's "eye power", which means both the Byakugan and the Sharingan. The same term has been used at least as far back the Five Kage Summit. It's been used interchangeably with dōjutsu, referring to both the eye and the jutsu used with it. The chapter says he used those dōryuko to cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:49, May 15, 2014 (UTC)

I dont see how that term confirms what her third eye is except for describing the eye's power. And know now that madara possess the same third eye, i guessing your going assume he has a sharingan on his forehead.--Ankhael (talk) 04:14, May 21, 2014 (UTC)


 * This is really getting tiresome. Please troll elsewhere. You've been told that it will be called Sharingan, as per the literal translation of the manga, until the tankoban comes out and either corrects it or confirms it. Period. End of argument. Good night. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 05:46, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

alright I will go alone with the ignorance(not knowing info correctly) for now. :) the third eye on Kaguya and Madara forehead that has the ability to cast infinite tsukuyomi is "called" sharingan, "ignoring" all the official translated mangas across the Web. :) until the true term for the eye is revealed farewell my naruto wiki theorist :)--Ankhael (talk) 07:52, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

Okay what is the deal with the troll that keeps adding Rinnegan back to Kaguya, after we all agreed that it was not confirmed? The manga translations said she only possessed sharingan and Byakugan not a Rinnegan. Also someone blocked the textual editing of the page to prevent the removal of the Rinnegan addition. --ElvinWindSword (talk) 19:18, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Latest chapter called Madara's third eye a Rinnegan, Kaguya's was the same as his is, so unless you want to be the guy with a tinfoil hat, there's no doubt. There's a difference between being cautious and paranoid.--Elveonora (talk) 21:03, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

So what does that mean for the Sharingan listing? The only way I can rationalize this is if the "power of the Sharingan" Hagoromo spoke of being an aspect of that Rinnegan's power, much like Sharingan's power is described as Dōsatsugan and Saimingan (see Sharingan article). I believe it's safe to assume that this power is only present in the red, tomoed Rinnegan. Now, what does that mean for her Rinnegan listing? And before someone else brings up the "the Rinnegan is a Sharigan" argument, I point that the Rinnegan that has the power of the Sharingan looks very different from the vanilla Rinnegan. Madara didn't have access to all his Sharingan abilities when he had the Rinnegan. IT was cast by a red, tomoed Rinnegan, which would have the "power of the Sharingan". If this discussion is already happening elsewhere, I haven't found it yet, but if there is one, please direct me there. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:20, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, I have been talking back and forth with Ten-Tailed Fox on Sasuke's Rinnegan but... I do agree that the power of the Sharingan resides in the red tomoed Rinnegan. Two examples of this notion are Madara and Sasuke. Madara uses that third eye to cast a Sharingan jutsu, in other words, Tsukuyomi -- Infinite Tsukuyomi. Sasuke, on the other hand, can use his Sharingan and Rinnegan powers simultaneously, as shown with him using Susanoo with his Rinnegan. Like how Madara and Hagoromo possess the same Rinnegan, the former, Sasuke and Kaguya possess the same red tomoed, one eyed Rinnegan due to all of them, with the exception of Hagoromo, using the powers of the Sharingan (or Mangekyo Sharingan in some cases) in conjunction with the red tomoe Rinnegan (in Madara's case, he didn't even need eyes to use Susanoo, so no one come at me with that "Madara used Susanoo with the dual Rinnegan too" sh*t). WindStar7125 (talk) 22:41, May 28, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125

The way I see it, Rinnegan and Sharingan were originally the same thing, just a Rinnegan. But the "Sharingan" aspect of it got split and turned into a separate doujutsu when it appeared in paired eyes. Basically, when someone is using one-eyed Rinnegan, he/she is also using the "Sharingan" aspect of it. But those with 2 Rinnegan eyes have to switch between the two. Not sure if this makes any sense, but the one-eyed Rinnegan has 9 tomoe, right? Let's say the power of Kaguya's one-eyed Rinnegan split 50/50 for Hagoromo's 2 Rinnegan eyes, but you can't divide 9 by 2. Perhaps that's why the split happened from one-eyed Rinnegan into paired Rinnegan and Sharingan as a separate doujutsu. All just a speculation still tho.--Elveonora (talk) 13:16, May 29, 2014 (UTC)

The background needs to be edited, Kaguya can use the Shinju's third eye and she has the Rinnegan.--World Master (talk) 15:51, May 29, 2014 (UTC)

Wood Release?
Did I miss some chapters?Faust-RSI (talk) 11:43, May 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Fixed.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 11:51, May 21, 2014 (UTC)

Chapter 679 update. Since she took over Madara's body, that means also took over the Wood Release, per Orochimaru taking over White Zetsu. Is everyone on the same page with that? In a similar but trickier situation, should we list her as EMS wielder as well, since Madara also had it? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 11:09, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * She didn't transfer her soul into him tho, Madara's body transformed into Kaguya's. Although she most likely had Wood Release to begin with. It's funny if you ask me, at first people listed God: Nativity of a World of Trees as Wood Release and now that it's been revealed that Kaguya used it as well, the Wood Release part has been removed. Some people just purposely stray away from a possibility of her having Wood Release no matter what--Elveonora (talk) 11:13, June 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * Not really the same. We have very specific details of the Living Corpse Reincarnation, and we know it carries over the traits of the individual who's body is taken. This method used an extraordinary amount of chakra to inflate and transform Madara's entire being into Kaguya. If I had to guess, Madara has been all but re-purposed into a completely different person. Atrix471 (talk) 11:19, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

How is it not the same? One sentience (Orochimaru, Black Zetsu) takes over another being (Genyumaru, Madara), changing it over. It's like saying Kaguya isn't the Shinju's jinchūriki just because the body was "repurposed". The issue I have with her being listed as Wood Release user before this is that it doesn't explain how Hashirama would have it if the source is related to the Shinju at all. Explain that connection in a satisfying manner in the manga, I'll make the changes myself. It's still Madara's body there, so she'd have his Wood Release. I see neither of you commented on the EMS matter as well. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 11:57, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm just saying we have no details on this transformation and shouldn't make assumptions, nothing more. Anything I may have theorized was simply theory, and as such not really relevant. --Atrix471 (talk) 11:59, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Omni, except the host's body doesn't mutate once Orochimaru transfers his soul there. Other than change of eyes and skin color (which are supposed to highlight the possession) they stay the same. Madara on the other hand transformed on biological level, unlike Orochimaru's hosts.--Elveonora (talk) 12:07, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * And why would that mean she'd get rid of a useful ability like Wood Release, even if she has powers much beyond that? There was obviously some biological change (Byakugan for example, probably from BZ, which now that I think about it, ties in with Zetsu's similar ability in early Part II), but that doesn't mean she'd get rid of everything the body had to offer. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 12:14, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

The explanation for Hashirama is easy and obvious. At this point, everyone knows that the Rinnegan and sharingan somehow mutated itself into Kaguya and her descendants dna, right? Same thing. Except somehow it skipped so many generations. I know that defies the ACTUAL physics of genetics, but Kishi has the layman's knowledge of it. Its also possible there were other users earlier in the family that were forgotten. Madara was thought to be the first to have the Mangekyo. Obviously Indra was. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 00:46, June 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then have Kishimoto show someone from that time using Wood Release like Hashirama did. Ashura maybe. And what we know about Madara and Izuna being the first with MS is can still be technically correct. Weren't they said to be the first Uchiha to awaken it? Indra predates any notion of an Uchiha, and MS so far didn't show up again until Madara. If Wood Release is sourced from the beginning of the Senju line, show it, just like they showed Indra with a regular Sharingan, and with a Susanoo. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:17, June 11, 2014 (UTC)

actions and intentions
There has been some debate about if did she whenever attempt to mass-bondage the whole world in order for the tree to have bore another fruit or not. I wouldn't like this get neglected, so how do we proceed? Hagoromo is unlikely to would have known that such a thing were possible if it hadn't happened.--Elveonora (talk) 17:58, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Debate is good and all, but we work with what is stated: Hagoromo said she did it to bring force peace,so we have to say it was for forced peace not to get another fruit.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 18:02, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then what about the fruit, roots and cocoons shown in Hagoromo's "flashback"? It was about Kaguya--Elveonora (talk) 18:13, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Why would she want to create another fruit though - she already ate one. I'm not saying that she didn't have evil intentions - she was probably corrupted by power either way but that might have been a fact rather than a statement of her intent. So we have to wait for more info.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 18:22, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, my whole point is that unless Hagoromo was stating and writing about hypothetical scenarios or could foresee future events, the flashback stuff and what the tablet says must have happened. According to that, someone made an attempt at fruit creation, approached the moon and received third eye etc.--Elveonora (talk) 20:39, May 24, 2014 (UTC)

Regarding the Byakugan
In the "Dōjutsu" column, why is the part "(with the exception of a small blind spot at the upper thoracic vertebrae)" posted.

I don't think it has been mentioned in the story yet that her Byakugan also had the same weakness as the present era Byakugan user have. Also Neji himself pointed out that the weakness could easily be over come (by simply focusing Chakra to that area). Considering that Kaguya could very well be the source of the Hyūga Clan's Byakugan, it can also be assumed that her Byakugan may have actually been much more powerful than the present day Byakugan, and could have been different as well (considering that she even ate the 'Chakra Fruit').

So, i believe that it would be better to remove that part since its actually not confirmed and we just can't assume her Byakugan to be the same as the other members of the present era Hyūga Clan.

But if this has been confirmed through some other source then it ok and please ignore my post.--Supratim1986 (talk) 19:41, May 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * It doesn't need to be confirmed. It has been confirmed that is the weakness of the Byakugan and it is speculation to assume that she didn't have any weakness to her's as well. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:43, May 24, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya's Will
So Black Zetsu is apparently the will of Kaguya. Which doesn't make much sense. Then you have the Sage's flashback speech where he states that Kaguya's massive ego resided in her power. So that leads me to two options: Kaguya's disembodied will latched onto Black Zetsu because he, being nothing more than Madara's will, gained her power and with that power comes her will. OR Madara is an idiot and somehow poured Kaguya's will, that was chillin inside him for some reason, into Black Zetsu. I doubt any of this can go into the article proper, but I figured we should get this out the way now.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 12:22, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * I doubt we can get this out of the way right now. It's just one more unclear statement we can add to the list. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:28, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * It wasn't likely meant literary. BZ may be Kaguya's will just as much Hidan was Jashin's. BZ presumably finds Kaguya more sympathetic than his own master--Elveonora (talk) 12:32, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * I highly doubt that. Highly. Highly. Doubt that. Just wait until the next chapter. It will undoubtably be explained. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:21, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Of course mine is just speculation that can't be added to the article, but I really think that the second hypothesis of TheUltimate3 has more chances to be right: Madara was unaware to have obtained Kaguya's will and then, maybe just for the influence of Kaguya in the Uchiha subconscious, poured it inside Black Zetsu wrongly considering it as a manifestation of his will rather than of a third entity. After that Naruto cut the Shinjuu Tree Madara heard a voice asking him to absorb the tree, this just with the silohuette of Kaguya appearing behind Madara. The wikia here suggest that the voice was the will of the Juubi, but actually seems much more likely that was the same Kaguya to talk. So, if Kaguya in some ways ended to be sealed trapped inside the Shinjuu in the ancient times, it's pretty possible that part of her could be already present inside the Gedo Mazo, the body of the Shinjuu sealed on the moon. After to have awakened the Rinnegan Madara used his powers to break the sealing that trapped the statue on the moon and, after some time, he connected himself directly to the statue for keeping himself to life. If Kaguya's presence was inside the statue, the prolonged connection of Madara to the Gedo Mazo could have been a fatal mistake for the Uchiha.--JK88 (talk) 14:28, May 31, 2014 (UTC)

Debut
Hi! Excuse me if I'm mistaken, but isn't her debut in the chapter 646. on page 7?

--KPeti01 (talk) 17:41, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * You have a point there, she is mentioned by name and a mural depicting her is shown. I think you're right, but let's see about a second opinion. Atrix471 (talk) 17:58, May 28, 2014 (UTC)

Except that's not actually her. Take Obito for example. We first saw his face in a Team Minato photo on Kakashi's room, but he's actual debut, the one that gets listed in the infobox, is when he first appeared in Kakashi Gaiden. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:09, May 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's not quite the same, though. Obito was just shown, that's it. Kaguya actually had her character introduced and talked about, who she was, in chapter 646. That's quite different than just being shown in a picture and that's it. It gives people the false impression that Kishi didn't even think about her until 670. -Alexdhamp (talk) 01:20, June 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * And Itachi's defining character traits at his introduction, him being Sasuke's older brother and having killed the rest of the clan were long established when he was merely seen in shadow whenever he was mentioned before his actual debut after Hiruzen's death. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:40, June 5, 2014 (UTC)

Typo Sentence
In the Background section there is a sentence awkwardly worded or erroneously typed: "It is said Kaguya once used the Infinite Tsukuyomi to force mankind to stop fighting for unknown reasons, released the technique and gave free will back to the world." I would edit it, but the page is locked so can someone fix the sentence so that it reads sensibly?  Banan 14  kab  02:37, May 31, 2014 (UTC)

Viz Manga For Names
Kaguya Ohtsutsuki Hagoromo Ohtsutsuki Indra (Same) Ashura HagoromoOtsutsuki (talk) 07:59, June 2, 2014 (UTC)HagoromoOtsutsuki

Peace
Can a sysop unlock the article so editors can update it or at least bother to add new stuff himself?--Elveonora (talk) 11:24, June 4, 2014 (UTC)-
 * You can try messaging them here. ~ IndxcvNovelist →talk • contribs • watty← 11:27, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Great. Now there's what I'm wondering, in which chapter was it said that she did all that for peace? I went back to re-read some of them and I couldn't find it. Turning people into Zetsu soldiers doesn't sound peaceful to me--Elveonora (talk) 11:49, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

If Kaguya turned the ground into lava, this is not an application of the Lava Release?--LordofBraxis (talk) 12:35, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * I got this very Flower-Fruit Mountain meets Inorganic Reincarnation vibe from what she did. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 12:51, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

This topic is about what her article states about her desire for peace, which I question, not Lava Release--Elveonora (talk) 13:57, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

Terrain manipulation or teleportation?
Which is it? Basically i vote for teleportation becose if she turned ground into lava then they(team 7) must be standing on it and ignite instantly and not fall from air.. Rage gtx (talk) 13:24, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * I was thinking teleportation, but apparently the general consensus is terrain manipulation. I had the same thought about Team 7 falling rather than being on the lava, but I guess we're over thinking it.. or something. Atrix471 (talk) 14:00, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Opposed to popular belief, it was definitely teleportation. Morphing the terrain does not account for their bodies appearing above it.--Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 14:06, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Less popular belief is still just that a belief. How about we rather wait for the next chapter?--Elveonora (talk) 14:09, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think it's terrain manipulation. At the right of that panel, it's like the ground is raising and coiling itself to throw them at the lava, similar to Kabuto's Earth Shore Return and Inorganic Reincarnation. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:30, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Omnibender, well then why she created rock cave ceiling with stalactites? I just dont see reason for her to create it. Rage gtx (talk) 18:46, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

Painfully pin them down against the lava? Whatever's good to hurt them. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:55, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * I feel it, instead of creating something that might actually hurt them, she created the mighty stalactites that will fall on them when they do not expect it. And one thing why i consider this teleport before doing "this" she said that the ground where they were is her nursery and she don`t want it to be hurted anymore.(or something like that). And after that, turning whole place in boiling lava seems bit of illogical tho. Rage gtx (talk) 20:03, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

Hair
She did use her hair to fight sasuke and naruto right? so why isn't it mentioned in her article? Munchvtec (talk) 16:23, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

thank you atrix, i had already added it but it was deleted for some reason. Munchvtec (talk) 16:27, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't see any reason for the lack of inclusion, Jiraiya did very similar things with his own hair, though he usually manipulated it with chakra. Atrix471 (talk) 16:30, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

Yup. Munchvtec (talk) 16:32, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Uh, considering that Kaguya seems to have naturally long hair, does this mean this has appeared in the manga? It doesn't seem to fit any of Jiraiya's hair techniques as much as this. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:10, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * I personally don't oppose that--Elveonora (talk) 20:16, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya's Return
Shouldn't we have a new arc now? I mean like a "Return of Kaguya Arc" or something? Though Infinite Tsukuyomi has happened already, Kaguya, during the IT, just like Madara, during the 4th shinobi world war, is back to the world of the living. WindStar7125 (talk) 17:31, June 4, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125
 * I've been under the impression that the arcs are officially listed by the writers/publishers, but I really have no idea how we create the arcs on this wiki. Atrix471 (talk) 17:05, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) Arcs are not officially done by writers and publishers, they are done by fans.
 * 2) There is already a discussion of it in the here.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:09, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

Considering Kaguya manifested through Madara's body, doesn't that make her the Shinju's jinchuriki?SasookayIsRlyCoo (talk) 17:28, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * We have already established that. Check Kaguya's article. Oh, and thanks @TheUltimate3 WindStar7125 (talk) 17:34, June 4, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125

River of Lava?
Quick question, why does it say that she transformed the ground to lava? I thought it was that at first, but then I noticed something: everybody's underground right now.

Look at the top of the picture currently detailing her return. There are stalactites and a cave ceiling. Last I saw, they were aboveground, not underground. Not to mention, everybody was standing/lying down on the ground. In that picture, everybody's falling. She didn't turn the ground to lava, she teleported everyone to an underground cavern with lava in it. Aeron Solo wuz here (If you wanna talk)  20:28, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * As much as I agree with the teleportation theory, it's still being debated. Also this topic is already being discussed 3 places up, 'Terrain Displacement or Teleportation?'. Atrix471 (talk) 20:30, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay I'll find it, thanks! Aeron Solo wuz here (If you wanna talk)  20:31, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya's Army
Why does she need an army of White Zetsu anyway? If she converts everyone into them, there'll be nobody left to fight... unless this is just more proof that she isn't human, and needs the army to go back 'home'. Atrix471 (talk) 21:57, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * No reason to speculate at this point. We will find out--Elveonora (talk) 21:59, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

Stronger Than the Juubi?
How did Naruto deduce that Kaguya had more chakra than the Juubi if it was previously stated that its power was immeasurable?--The Zeitgeist (talk) 03:29, June 5, 2014 (UTC)

Zeitgeist she is the shinju.......HagoromoOtsutsuki (talk) 03:47, June 5, 2014 (UTC) HagoromoOtsutsuki


 * How can she be the Shinju if she ate from its chakra fruit?--The Zeitgeist (talk) 03:53, June 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * Don't know, don't care. Naruto said it, therefore we record it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 03:54, June 5, 2014 (UTC)

Zeitgeist its in the manga that she became the shinju over a period of time becoming the Physical Incarnation of the shinju HagoromoOtsutsuki (talk) 04:04, June 5, 2014 (UTC)HagoromoOtsutsuki

Shall we list her as a Tailed Beast, then?--Hockey Machete (talk) 04:10, June 5, 2014 (UTC)

No HagoromoOtsutsuki (talk) 04:20, June 5, 2014 (UTC)HagoromoOtsutsuki


 * @TTF, fine. But I hope it gets elaborated on in the future.--The Zeitgeist (talk) 04:23, June 5, 2014 (UTC)

worth of note
That unlike Obito, Madara and presumably Hagoromo, she doesn't have a jinchuuriki form/cloak/transformation? (just my speculation: This may be an indication that she indeed merged with the Shinju and became the Ten-Tails, it wouldn't make sense for her to have a form if she shared her body with the Shinju) EDIT: this would also finally solve why the TT jinchuurki get the same tomoe pattern as her clothes have--Elveonora (talk) 10:42, June 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * While that does not conflict with my theory that the Ten-Tails because of her, until we actually know some things, as you are apt to say; it is speculation.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:17, June 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * Your speculation doesn't make sense anyway because Madara explained that eating the fruit from the Shinju caused it to rampage the Earth as the Ten-Tails since it longed to reclaim its stolen power. So that means it couldn't have merged bodies with Kaguya. Also it only became the Ten-Tails because of what Kaguya did; bot from hypothetically merging bodies.  Banan 14  kab  21:36, June 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Doesn't matter even if it absorbed her after transforming into Ten-Tails. My point was that its personality which according to Kurama it doesn't have stems from Kaguya.--Elveonora (talk) 22:46, June 6, 2014 (UTC)

is Kaguya no longer a pseudo Jinchuriki?
I mean she completely absorbed Madara into herself so she is using his power for her own so should we change her into Jinchuriki instead of pseudo Jinchuriki ToskaBlader1277 (talk) 21:13, June 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * She's already listed as full jin. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:18, June 7, 2014 (UTC)

No doesn't seem like that since madara was Consumed by her but she already surpassed the shinju in terms of its own chakra madara just made her I guess more above the shinju and added her own power. HagoromoOtsutsuki' 21:26, June 7, 2014 (UTC)HagoromoOtsutsuki

removal of Sharingan
I insist on it. She has a Rinnegan, not a Sharingan.--Elveonora (talk) 19:30, June 8, 2014 (UTC)


 * Well I foresee this getting stupid real fast. But I'm just gonna go with...nah...--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 19:41, June 8, 2014 (UTC)

...I thought it was stated she had the power of the Sharingan... *Sigh* This probably will get stupid real fast... WindStar7125 (talk) 20:36, June 8, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125
 * Power of Sharingan =/= Sharingan. Power of Sharingan refers to visual genjutsu. The third eye was directly called a Rinnegan. While for Hagoromo and others, Infinite Tsukuyomi is a Sharingan technique, originally it was a Rinnegan technique, since there was no Sharingan as a separate doujutsu until it appeared with Indra.--Elveonora (talk) 20:45, June 8, 2014 (UTC)

To possess the power of something means to actually possess it, how is this even an argument? How can you wield the power of something that you don't actually have, that's completely ludicrous. Even a pseudo-Jinchūriki, that has the power of a Bijū within them, actually has a fragment of that particular beast within them, even if it isn't the complete sentient beast. This ridiculous "Power of Sharingan =/= Sharingan" argument is completely idiotic. Furthermore, whether or not she literally has a physical Sharingan in her eyes or in her forehead is irrelevant, it isn't dependent on your interpretations. Kishi's chapter literally stated Kaguya possesses the power of Sharingan, Hagoromo directly stated she has that power, and therefore, it has to be listed that she wields a Sharingan. There is no room for interpretation, this wiki's job is to record what Kishi has confirmed directly through his manga. End of story. You can't dismiss that just because it doesn't fit with your own interpretation. --Silver-Haired Seireitou (talk) 01:43, June 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you, God, that there is someone else with lucidity around here. No, Elveonora, it will not be removed. Insist all you want. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:48, June 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Don't complain to me, complain to Kishimoto for vague wording. The third eye isn't a Sharingan, it's a Rinnegan with "Sharingan" power. Unless she is a time-traveler, she can't have something that came into existence a generation or two later. The third eye was called directly a Rinnegan, there's no room for "personal interpretation" and just because something appears idiotic to you two doesn't falsify it.--Elveonora (talk) 21:22, June 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm not complaining to you. I'm not challenging Kishimoto, because he made it quite clear. You don't like it because, once again, it doesn't fit with your theory (this one being that, somehow, Indra was the originator of the Sharingan; which has no manga proof), but that isn't mine, this wikis, or Kishimoto's problems. Its yours. What I am telling you, however, is that it isn't being removed. So drop it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:34, June 9, 2014 (UTC)

Hagoromo or Indra and that's not even a theory but manga fact. Indra is the first known Sharingan wielder and Hagoromo most likely had it too, considering that recreating Hagoromo's Rinnegan still allows the usage of Sharingan, so in order for Sharingan to split, it had to be there in the first place.

First there was an egg and then chicken. The Sharingan didn't come from nowhere, it came from the Rinnegan. And Kaguya has the original Rinnegan, so she can't have a Sharingan.--Elveonora (talk) 21:44, June 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * *sigh* Your persistence is annoying, but I'll indulge you. Its not manga fact. There you are using your own theories to prove your original theory and then declaring it a manga fact. Do you think I was born yesterday, Elevonora? That perhaps I don't read the very manga that we're discussing? Nowhere in the manga is it stated or insinuated that Hagoromo, Indra, or even Kaguya herself, is the origin of the Sharingan. In fact, Kaguya having the Sharingan blows that theory out of the water. But, since its manga fact, I suppose you have a page number, right? A quote? Perhaps a databook reference or an interview from Kishimoto? Those would constitute a "manga fact", so I am very interested as to what you procured this "fact" from and would be more than willing to indulge your insanity if you could point me to the spot where it says anything you just claimed. I eagerly await your proof. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:52, June 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep up the good job at being ignorant. "Kaguya having the Sharingan blows that theory out of the water" she has none that's what the topic is about. Manga fact is that Indra is chronologically the first known Sharingan wielder, but go on and try to refute that as well. The task is up to you to disprove me, show me where Kaguya has a Sharingan. And no, power of Sharingan doesn't count, because the eye was called a Rinnegan. So unless she has another hole in the back of her head, she has only 1 Rinnegan and a pair of Byakugan--Elveonora (talk) 23:26, June 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * You can throw around insults all you like. It only detracts your credibility, which is almost zero as it already is. She has a Sharingan. That's what the manga says. You say its not, but you're neither Kishimoto, nor a credible source, so forgive me if I kindly dismiss your "evidence". To make matters more hilarious, you want to throw out an entire panel of the manga, which coveniently disproves all of the drivel you've given to me thus far (I'll quote you here, for any readers of this argument; "And no, power of Sharingan doesn't count[...]") And thirdly, to throw even more dirt on your argument, the eye was never called a Rinnegan. The Infinite Tsukuyomi was said, by Sasuke, to be "cast" by a Rinnegan, which merely insinuates the eye is a Rinnegan (not arguing that Madara's eye is a Rinnegan, but I'm pointing out the obvious hopeless fallacy in your argument). I have no burden of proof. Do you understand that? None. The manga is my proof. You have theories, none which can be supported, none of which have any merit on any article on this site, so until you come up with chapter, page, episode, databook, or interview, as a credible source, I will repeat this for the third (or is it fourth?) and final time. It. Will. Not. Be. Removed. Savvy? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:25, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * 9999th time, power of Sharingan =/= Sharingan and besides that there's no evidence at all. An instant noodle soup may have a chicken flavor but there's none in there. Attributing power of Sharingan to Kaguya merely points out that what a Sharingan can do is within her doujutsu prowess. The third eye was never stated to be Sharingan and as even you yourself refuse to refute (since you can't. because it's true, it would be hilarious to try) it was called a Rinnegan. So unless she shows up an additional eye socket wherever on her body with a Sharingan in there or Kishi draws an arrow pointing to the forehead with a "you are looking at a Sharingan dear reader" then no, she has an imaginary make-believe Sharingan at best. But if you seriously see it anywhere then my observatory skills must be inferior to yours or one of us is hallucinating or is in a very strong delusion--Elveonora (talk) 10:03, June 10, 2014 (UTC)

Where was Kaguya's eye called a Rinnegan, though? • Seelentau 愛 議 10:39, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Didn't Sasuke say that Infinite Tsukuyomi was cast from a Rinnegan? Assuming that Madara and Kaguya's third eyes are different doujutsu requires greater leap of faith than that they are the same. It's also a little paranoid in my opinion to assume as such--Elveonora (talk) 11:11, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, you're right, the raw confirmed it. In this case, Kaguya's eye is a Rinnegan which holds the power of the Sharingan. If we'd go by Hagoromo's words alone, I'd agree on her having a Sharingan, but Sasuke's words made it pretty clear that the eye is a Rinnegan. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:26, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * And on the basis of the eye being called a Rinnegan, not Sharrinegan, I'm for the removal of Sharingan from her article. Because at the end of the day, Rinnegan with Sharingan power is still a Rinnegan.--Elveonora (talk) 11:37, June 10, 2014 (UTC)

I'd like opinions of others on the reasoning above--Elveonora (talk) 20:11, June 10, 2014 (UTC)

While I know a discussion on this topic is necessary, I still believe that it is getting ridiculous and bothersome. Of course the Sharingan should be removed from Kaguya's page. Power of the Sharingan does not warrant the fact the she possesses the actual eye. Just as the power of a tailed-beast does not equal being the jinchuriki. With the lack of information we had before, it's easy to see why the Sharingan was there before, but not now. Sasuke's comment was direct, and straight to the point. The Rinnegan casts IFN. Tsuk. Point-blank period. There's no argument against it. However, I do recall Obito saying something about the power of the Sharingan can be used to cast the technique somewhere in some discussion, but even then, characters have been proven wrong on many of historical accounts due to recent revelations. Furthermore, I find it equally ridiculous that on Kaguya's page that the section is titled, "Sharingan and Rinnegan"(or flipped; w/e..). It's like we're calling it a Sharrinnegan. Remove the Sharingan. Not enough evidence supporting the opposite argument. Agreed w/ Elveo and Seel. (ALSO- just thought that i'd add that I believe I had participated in this argument before, maybe an edit conflict i was unaware about?)--Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 20:37, June 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * @ Elve: No you don't. You've made it quite clear that the only opinions you're interested in hearing are those that agree with your own. Which, right now, amount to maybe, possibly Seel (I can never tell) and Koto, who seems to just be jumping off the same cliff as the rest of the "power of"=/=eye itself insanity. A Rinnegan that "has the power of the Sharingan"? Have you jumped off a mental cliff, Seel? Madara has the "power of the Sharingan"... as a Sharingan. His evolves into a Rinnegan, which Kabuto said was a natural progression. For those of you not savvy with scientific terms that means the Sharingan is the base, the root, the origin, and it evolves into a Rinnegan. The problem in Elve's statement is that he believes that the Rinnegan is the root and it descended into a Sharingan, but that contradicts manga testimony. How is it that you, and Elveonora over here, seem to forget that the Sharingan is the root of that dōjutsu? She has a Sharingan. Whether or not she ever uses it, or just prefers to use her Rinnegan instead, I don't know, and I couldn't give a flying horses shit either way. She has a Sharingan and, according to Hagoromo, used its power to control others. That's right out of the fucking manga. Questions? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 20:37, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry Fox-Boss. you're wrong on this one. In Madara's case, and anyone following the lifespan of the sage, the Sharingan can "evolve" into a Rinnegan. The Rinnegan came first and devolved into a Sharingan. And by reuniting the "body and chakra(his sons) of the sage can it "evolve" back into the Rinnegan. That's been explained to us already. You're only going by one side of the history explained within the manga. --Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 20:42, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Foxie, Sharingan evolves backwards into Hagoromo's purple Rinnegan, but not the red Rinnegan. The red Rinnegan was there before the purple one, so obviously the Rinnegan was there first irrefutably, considering the progenitor of the Narutoverse has a Rinnegan. Unless you believe a God time-traveled into the future and took Hashirama's cells to evolve his Sharingan into a Rinnegan or something--Elveonora (talk) 20:48, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Both of you: And that has, and let me be very clear here, ZERO manga basis. Kabuto said that, genetically speaking, the Rinnegan is the natural progression of the Sharingan. That means, as far as genes go, the Sharingan comes first, and advances into a Rinnegan. That's what the manga says. Hagoromo also notes that his mother has a Sharingan. Yes, she has a Sharingan. Point to me where it says the Rinnegan devolved into a Sharingan? Hm? You can't because it doesn't exist. However, I can point you to where it says the Sharingan evolves into a Rinnegan. Edit: The next time you use that Hashirama argument, Elveonora, I will public ally laugh in your face. Hagoromo debunked that myth. The Sage's chakra (which can be mimicked by mixing Asura and Indra's, which is what Madara did) is what evolves a Sharingan into a Rinnegan. Also manga fact. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 20:48, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Fox-Boss, Funny how you quote a character who regards that statement as a theory created by he and Orochimaru. And also, yes, look at Indra who was said to have the devolved power of his father.--Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 20:52, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * "The Sage's chakra which can be mimicked by mixing Asura and Indra's, which is what Madara did is what evolves a Sharingan into a Rinnegan" Hagoromo's Rinnegan was split into Indra's Sharingan and whatever Ashura inherited, therefore yes, Rinnegan devolved into Sharingan--Elveonora (talk) 20:54, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * No. It didn't. Once again, twisting things for your psychotic fan fictional delusions. Kaguya had a Sharingan, but because her chakra is what gave births to the Sage's, she can also have a Rinnegan. The Sage would also then have a Sharingan, but, because he obviously wields his own chakra, it evolved into a Rinnegan. Indra does not posses the full power of the Sage (as that requires Asura's chakra as well), so his Sharingan is not capable of evolving into a Rinnegan. End of argument. Kabuto and Orochimaru, Koto, came up with a theory, which Kabuto stated outright that Madara was living proof of. So, yeah, go take that to the bank. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 20:57, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wow Fox-Boss, your quote of Hagoromo:
 * "Hagoromo debunked that myth. The Sage's chakra (which can be mimicked by mixing Asura and Indra's, which is what Madara did) is what evolves a Sharingan into a Rinnegan[...]"


 * Pretty much blows everything you've said prior, out of this argument. That statment alone supports our claim as we repeatedly tell you of the d'evolution of the Rinnegan.
 * Furthermore, all of Kabuto's theory only proves that it can re-evolve not that it is mearly the base, or root, or even origin of the Rinnegan. --Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 21:00, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * There is no such thing as "de-evoltion". None. The term isn't even a word. It does not exist. In fact, in modern science, the term itself is considered a logical fallacy, so choke on that one. The Sharingan is the origin as hypothesized by Orochimaru and Kabuto, proven by Madara, and the Rinnegan is what results when the Sage's chakra (which first existed in Kaguya) influences and evolves the Sharingan into its final stage. That is what the manga says and that is what shall remain on this page, until/unless a databook proves it otherwise. I hope you both very clearly understand that. Its not getting removed. At all. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:03, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's a mistranslation. Kabuto said: "when you progress beyond the Sharingan, there lies the Rinnegan" Sharingan doesn't evolve into the Rinnegan, it is being restored back into it, since the Rinnegan came first.--Elveonora (talk) 21:08, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not a mistranslation. ^ Logical fallacy, not possible, and not a fact. Try again Elveonora. (Clarrification: Its not a mistranslation because "progress beyond", progress, meaning improvement, is virtually the same definition as evolution) ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:09, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Fox-Boss, broham, does Kishimoto even science? Please indulge me. Tell me how in the bluest of blue hells can Hagoromo's descendents have a Sharingan, IF it came before the dojutsu he himself wielded, the Rinnegan?(which according to Kabuto's theory and your argument states, was the evolution of the original) Just tell me how that makes any sense. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 21:11, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, it is. Ask Seelentau if you don't believe. And what is or isn't possible in terms of genetic in real world doesn't concern Kishimoto, the author of a fictional work.--Elveonora (talk) 21:13, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because if you use the organ in your skull and accept the fact, manga fact, that the Sharingan came first, and accept what the Sage said, that Madara's Sharingan evolved into a Rinnegan upon obtaining his (Asura and Indra's) chakra, then you must also accept that the Sage too began with a Sharingan, which, due to his unique chakra, evolved into its Rinnegan form. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:14, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * ALERT ALLERT. PURE SPECULATION!!--Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 21:15, June 10, 2014 (UTC)

Fun as this has been, its time to end this. The manga is very clear, as are its translations. I shall also be clear. So, hear me out you two. Whether you continue to debate this afterwards is your problem, but this will be my last post. Its not going to be removed. Period. End of discussion. Your dual crackpot theories, unfortunately, do not hold up to any translation the manga has given, and not even Seel's translations back up your theories. Good day to you both. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 21:17, June 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * It seems as though King Fox-Boss has spoken and in doing so, made his decree clear. All there is left to do is wait I suppose. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 21:22, June 10, 2014 (UTC)

Fox the last couple of replys you have posted is "Logical fallacy, not possible, and not a fact."

Fun fact Logical fallacy, not possible, and not possible to shoot fire from ones mouth (fire style), not possible to shoot water, etc from ones mouth. Nor is it possible to rise the dead (Edo Tensi/other jutsu used to being Madara back fully). Nor is it possible to have eyes that see 359 degrees, or see ones chakra.

Logic being used on a manga where people do non logical things on a daily basis and live is just dumb. Read what is wrote in the manga.

--Darkhunter-X (talk) 21:18, June 10, 2014 (UTC)

@Foxie, so now suddenly not even Seel's translations which you used to cringe so much after are relevant just because they do clash with your fanon version of canon, great.--Elveonora (talk) 21:21, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Seel's translations did not prove or deny anything. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Capish? Try again. Also, fanon Elveonora? Pot calling kettle black is it? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:23, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd really like to give you the benefit of the doubt and allow you to prove and defend your theory, so if you would be so nice, please do graphically demonstrate your understanding of the progression, for example like: "x > y" etc. for the last time and in full. Also I don't smoke pots--Elveonora (talk) 21:27, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Firstly, the basis of my position comes from Kabuto and Orochimaru's theory. To give you cookie points, I'll use your translation, which still works: "When you progress beyond the Sharingan, there lies the Rinnegan." Firstly, notice the wording. "Progress" means that the Rinnegan is an advancement. An upgrade. But to accept that it is an upgrade, you also have to accept that something existed to be upgraded. In this case, as was also stated by Kabuto in that very quote, the object being upgraded is the Sharingan. Also note that "progression" and "evolution" can be used interchangeably. The mean the same thing. Now let's go forward to what Hagoromo said. He said a lot, so I'll try to keep this brief and to the point. Firstly, he noted that Madara, who was the transmigrant of Indra, infused Asura's chakra into himself by infusing himself with Hashirama's cellular matter. The combination of Asura and Indra's chakra (which form the Sage's chakra) then awakened Madara's Rinnegan, confirming Kabuto's theory. Continuing forward, he notes that he feared that a descendant of Indra, who inherited his eyes (suggesting the Sage had a Sharingan at some point), would then try to obtain the Rinnegan again, which Madara succeeded in doing. Finally, we get to Kaguya. He claims that Kaguya controlled the entire world after creating peace using her power (note, word used is "dōryoku", meaning "eye power"). In the next page, while showing the contended third eye, Hagoromo states that aside from the Byakugan, his mother also, and now I'm quoting, "had the Sharingan's power. It was a gruesome eye power that she used on people." He's not speaking about the Infinite Tsukuyomi, he already talked about that in previous panels. He's specifically listing her powerful eye abilities here. That suggests that the earliest user of the Sharingan was Kaguya, who possessed the ability to make her Sharingan a Rinnegan, an ability Hagoromo inherited, and then this ability was diluted with Indra and Asura (which is genetically possible), and Indra lost his ability to evolve his Sharingan into a Rinnegan (without Asura's chakra). ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:44, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * How did Kaguya and Hagoromo evolve their Sharingan tho? Also note, in Kaguya's case, we have seen just the red one-eyed tomoed Rinnegan but no purple Rinnegans, while in Hagoromo's case only the purple Rinnegans but no third eye. Also this theory doesn't explain the Shinju. It had a Sharingan at some point and then evolved it into a Rinnegan? How? it's a merger of all chakra, it was all there in the first place--Elveonora (talk) 21:51, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * We don't even know the specifics of how Madara awakened the Rinnegan. It just happened spontaneously once the correct chakra was present. No reason to assume Kaguya and Hagoromo weren't the same. Red Rinnegan and normal Rinnegan could be genetic variation same as normal eye colors, or there could be a specific reason for the difference, we just know they're both Rinnegan. Also, this is just speculation, so don't take this as fact, but I don't think the Shinju originally had its eye. The mural version of the Shinju and the version of the Shinju with the eye look radically different. I think Kaguya is connected to this, but we'll have to wait for conformation. Again, most of this is just theory, but its the logical result of the stated manga facts. The manga just does not support the Rinnegan "deevolving" (even Science laughs at that term) into a Sharingan, which can then "re-evolve" (lolwut?) back into a Rinnegan. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 22:11, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * I lol @ my usage of laymen terms to get my point across. I get your point Fox-Boss. Actually, I always have. There's just some inconsistency with what you're saying. What you say implies Hagoromo had a sharingan himself. That's completely unheard of. And that all users of the Rinnegan, in truth, should be able to revert their eyes into a Sharingan. Hmm.. It would seem that time(and more historical flashbacks) will have to finally put an end to our debate, yes? -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 22:22, June 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * How is that unheard of? Three Sharingan users have been confirmed to also have the Rinnegan: Kaguya (yes her), Sasuke, and Madara. Two of those people, Sasuke and Madara, evolved their Sharingan into the Rinnegan. Also on two occassions now, Indra was said to have inherited Hagoromo's eyes. If Indra only got a Sharingan, then he didn't inherit Hagoromo's eyes. Unless of course, Hagoromo's eyes were, as Kabuto and Orochimaru suggested, the Sharingan is the original and Hagoromo also had them. Its true, we may never know if he did or not, but the manga does not support you, Elve, or Seel's suggestions. Not even in the slightest. Only time will tell, but right now, the evidence is against you three and more for the way the rest of us understand this. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 22:40, June 10, 2014 (UTC)

Ok TTF, you're saying all Rinnegan users who have naturally had or awakened the Rinnegan, no implants, have the Sharingan, yes? And you are assuming that Indra inherited Hagoromo's possible Sharingan as well? The two distinct powers of Hagoromo are the Rinnegan and the Six Paths Sage Technique (So Indra had a downgraded version of the Rinnegan, so Asura must've had a downgraded version of the SPST). Ok Foxie, what are you going to do now? Put the Sharingan in the Shinju and Hagoromo's infoboxes? WindStar7125 (talk) 23:48, June 10, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125

Devolution is a word, it is only used in science fiction these day because modern evolutionary theory makes it obsolete. It's a throwback term to old ideas of species "always advancing and becoming more complex" meaning a change that resulted in a "less complex" (value judgement on the part of the observer) form would be devolution. Kishi is no scientist and while I don't care to take a side as it will most likely become clear later, it seems the concept he's working from (to me) is more a matter of dilution. Kaguya ate the fruit of the tree gaining many powers from it, one being it's eye. Each generation after diluted the closeness to the source, the God Tree, dividing it's different aspects among the later generations. This isn't evolutionary biology really at all, it's an outside source being introduced into humanity. Every character has needed to bring the pieces back together to get their upgrade. I fell like it's thinking in the wrong direction to look at it with real world evolution. Obito needed the God Tree to use it's eye because he got close but didn't have all the pieces, Madara had enough to surpass SoSP and get Kaguya's Shar-rinnegan. IDK if that helps either theory but that's how I see Kishis' thinking. Arrancar79 (talk) 23:29, June 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * @Windstar: No. I'm not. Because neither were stated. Kaguya having the Sharingan was, though. What I am saying is that nothing is being removed. That's final, no if ands or buts, unless Kishimoto makes another 180 and changes his story again. As of now, its the pill you lot have to swallow because it is (whether you accept it or not) what the manga says. Savvy? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 00:10, June 11, 2014 (UTC)

Dude, calm down with that "That is period and final" stuff. Don't worry, in this case, I agree with you. It shouldn't be removed, all I'm commentating on is that you are implying that Hagoromo, at the least, has the Sharingan, considering that you keep reiterating that the Sharingan is the origin; it came before the Rinnegan did. WindStar7125 (talk) 00:20, June 11, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125