Talk:Naruto and the Sage of Six Paths…!!

Night Moth Debut
Guy speaks of Night Moth, he doesn't use it. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 02:20, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, and when he actually uses it a chapter, the debut will be updated. Minato still hasn't really used his sesquipedalian loquaciously named jutsu, so the debut stays when it was mentioned. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:42, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

671 bijuu reunion.jpg
I am having troubles getting the Raw version of that one done. It seems there is a part left out in the middle. Do we just leave it now as it is or can somebody properly fix it? Noweeaboohoo (talk) 14:19, April 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Bit of both. If the raw you have has the middle missing and it looks too odd when you piece it together, then leave it.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:39, April 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hm, it was done and looks okay I think. Kokuō's horns are a bit off, but I guess that's not that big of a problem. Noweeaboohoo (talk) 17:59, April 4, 2014 (UTC)

So the chapter says
That their grandmother Kaguya is also Indra and Asura's mother. Even though it implies incest, if it's canon we should document it nonetheless, or not?--Elveonora (talk) 17:19, April 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * If it's true it's true and it will be mentioned as is. I will still sit here and wait for someone to tell me if it was true or not.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:30, April 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * The scan house that says "their mother" was not on top of their game this week. I saw grammatical errors in the translation as well. Seelentau just confirmed that there was no indication of that bing said in the raw. I can only imagine how semantics would break down trying to add a mom/grandma.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 17:38, April 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * False alarm then. They should hire some better translator, the translation differs greatly from panda's this time--Elveonora (talk) 17:43, April 4, 2014 (UTC)

taken at face value
We were told before many times that the Rinnegan is a merger of Senju and Uchiha power. It's true that Ashura and Indra's chakras recreate the Rinnegan, but one shouldn't forget that their descendants, Senju and Uchiha also carry trace amounts/watered down versions of those chakras. Even Madara himself didn't deny the possibility that Obito may get Rinnegan one day, chapter 606. As Ashura and Indra both had halves of Hagoromo's chakra, their children did 25% and so on, it's never been lost completely. In theory the Rinnegan could be recreated with Kagami and Toka's cells as an example, only the likelihood the Rinnegan would be awoken is much lower. So claiming only those with directly Ashura and Indra's chakras get Rinnegan isn't entirely true, it should be noted that the probability is still there even in relatives.--Elveonora (talk) 10:24, April 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Obito's Rinnegan potential was explicitly stated to be because of the Senju cells Madara gave him. He even says in that chapter that half of Obito's body is made from Hashirama's cells. I think you're looking at things from too much of a real world perspective. The manga states that Indra inherited one aspect of the Sage's power, while Ashura inherited another. In reality their wouldn't be such a clear and definite split, in reality their children could theoretically end up with some of the traits their fathers don't possess, but that's not the case here. Only those who have inherited those powers have the genetic capability to unlock those abilities. Furthermore I would argue that the Senju aspect of the power is actually only carried by those who actually possess Ashura's chakra itself (Hashirama and Naruto). Everyone who has tried to gain some of that power has always gone to Hashirama, not his brother, granddaughter or anyone else, only the one person with Wood Release. So canonically there's really nothing to suggest that any other relative has the some chance of achieving that power.--Soul reaper (talk) 12:18, April 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * The reason why Hashirama's cells were heavily researched was because of his ability to influence Tailed Beasts, not Ashura's chakra which 99,99% of population doesn't even have an idea about. Chakra is obviously hereditary to some extent, even more so now that it's been suggested chakra itself is responsible for genetic/physical traits. And again, Madara himself said that the Rinnegan is a merger of Senju and Uchiha powers, not just of Ashura and Indra's chakras and suggested Obito may or may not get it. That's because all Senju and Uchiha have had leftover traits from those chakras. The likelihood has just gotten lower with each passing generation, but it's still there.--Elveonora (talk) 14:15, April 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Na, you're wrong. Seelentau 愛議 16:28, April 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Rinnegan requires Asura's and Indra's chakra, 671 made that very clear. The Senju and Uchiha powers that other characters know about ultimately comes from Madara from reading the Uchiha tablet. He's either withholding information from the tablet, or Hagoromo's extremely pompous language gave leeway to misinterpretation. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:00, April 6, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, that's a very useful response for sure. How can you say I'm even wrong? Chapter 671 has confirmed that chakra is responsible for physical/genetic matters (since chakra alone can make you grow magical eyes) The Uchiha have the Sharingan, that means they have Indra's chakra. @Omni, just because chapter 671 said something slightly different from what was stated before doesn't mean the prior statement has been falsified, either doesn't contradict the other, both may be true. That's why the topic is called "taken at face value"--Elveonora (talk) 18:53, April 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because I can't say anything else. Everything you said is wrong and I'm too tired to repeat the manga just to show you why exactly you're wrong. Seelentau 愛議 19:04, April 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then please, be so benevolent to enlighten me once you "untire" I'm going to await for you to do so very eagerly.
 * A woman had eaten a magical fruit of chakra, grew an eye because of it, which has passed on through reproduction. Chakra itself affects the physiology and genes of an organism according to the recent manga revelations (and it was heavily suggested before already, things like Lava Release have probably come from Son Goku himself to humans through his jinchuurikis) so passing on genes equals to passing on chakra. How can you even say I'm completely wrong and threaten me with manga which itself supports my statements is beyond me.--Elveonora (talk) 19:20, April 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * What does that have to do with Indora, Ashura and the Rinnegan? Seelentau 愛議 20:15, April 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Chakra is inherited along with genes, since physiology and even genes of people are affected by chakra. One come with the other, to inherit genes equals to inheriting that chakra. To state only Ashura and Indra's chakras in their purest forms can make up the Rinnegan is fallacious, since their descendants still carry their chakra to various extents. Long story short, being blood descendants of Ashura or Indra equals to having some of their chakra, meaning Madara and Hagoromo's statements aren't conflicting but synonymous.--Elveonora (talk) 20:47, April 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Here, that's all I'm able to do right now. Gotta sleep, tomorrow I'll discuss this if you still see any problems with the newest information. Seelentau 愛議 21:32, April 6, 2014 (UTC)

But how do you know it must be only the original chakras? Madara originally said only Senju and Uchiha power, Hagoromo's statement about Ashura and Indra chakras isn't conflicting with that since some Uchiha have Indra's chakra (those with Sharingan do) and not sure about Senju, but those who have Ashura's major "defining traits" (whatever that manifests as) also have his chakra. Also if what you say were true, then it would have meant that Hashirama and Madara no longer have Ashura and Indra's chakras respectively, since Naruto and Sasuke exist. The chakra magically incarnated into them and manifested in their genes, that's why they still do after being revived, it's in their DNA.--Elveonora (talk) 21:44, April 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because otherwise, each and every Uchiha and Senju (and Uzumaki) would be a chakra reincarnation of Indora and Ashura and it would be no problem for Obito or Danzō to awaken the Rinnegan.
 * And yes, Madara and Hashirama do not longer have the chakra of the two sons. They are not longer the chakra reincarnations anymore, because it left them when they died. Seelentau 愛議 07:46, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's why I said some... obviously, someone like "auntie" the baker who may not even had the Sharingan had chakra less alike that of Indra than say Itachi. If the Rinnegan could be attained only by one of the reincarnations, Orochimaru wouldn't have bothered attempting to steal Itachi's body. What you suggest is that Kabuto and Orochimaru did years of research for nothing and that Madara, the all-knowing doesn't know better himself--Elveonora (talk) 12:46, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * You're assuming that Orochimaru could even know about the whole reincarnation aspect of things. What we know is this: Indra and Ashura's chakra was housed within Madara and Hashirama, it has always been Hashirama's cells that have been used to gain any and all related powers, no other Senju DNA has been given any importance, Madara implanted the cells of a still living Hashirama into himself and gained the power of the Sage. Madara and Hashirama died. There's nothing to really lend any credence to the idea that any Uchiha has that potential, and even less in regards to the Senju.--Soul reaper (talk) 12:59, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Orochimaru formulated a hypothesis of what's written on the shrine. He never actually read it, so it's nothing unusual that he didn't know the whole story. Madara, on the other hand, did. He read the tablet and knew he had to steal Hashirama's cells to awaken the Rinnegan. Seelentau 愛議 13:08, April 7, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, can you translate what Madara said to Obito in the flashback chapter 606 page 13-14 or so about the Rinnegan?--Elveonora (talk) 13:16, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Madara says "I got my hands on Hashirama Senju's cells after fighting him. I transplanted them in my wound and in the beginning, nothing happened. And then, when my life span was short... the Rinnegan awakened". Seelentau 愛議 13:29, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * I meant the part addressed to Obito EDIT: page 14--Elveonora (talk) 13:43, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh. He says "If you don't hold the power of both, Uchiha and Senju, the Rinnegan won't be awakened. Furthermore, you can't handle the Mazō.". Seelentau 愛議 13:57, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Right, no mention of Ashura and Indra's chakras/DNA only. Ashura and Indra weren't even Senju and Uchiha respectively then. Correct me if I'm wrong, but on the next panel he says "even if you don't get the Rinnegan" or so, doesn't that imply a possibility?--Elveonora (talk) 14:11, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ya. So Madara did probably not know that you need to be Indora's reincarnation to get the Rinnegan. He couldn't even read the whole tablet, so there's that. Seelentau 愛議 14:15, April 7, 2014 (UTC)

Damn this ^_^ thank you anyway for cooperation I guess. You assume he doesn't know all the details while I do that he does. I just don't think we should have jumped to the conclusion that what Madara and Hagoromo said contradict each other. I think Madara still may be right, hence the topic about descendants still having a lesser probability to get the Rinnegan too. We will see I guess--Elveonora (talk) 14:20, April 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * It actually doesn't contradict each other, but the newer information refines the older. The same with Sasuke's words about the double Mangekyo. Seelentau 愛議 14:26, April 7, 2014 (UTC)