Talk:Fire Release: Fire Breath

Not Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique like in anime
Too small, and wrong shape. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 20:45, July 14, 2010 (UTC)

Why mentionning no hand-signs
Those are rare, and his hand positions indicate that they were not needed which is different from several other jutsu with no indicated hand-signs where we do not see the hands at all. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 20:45, July 14, 2010 (UTC)

Deletion
Why? Do you deny it happened, or that it was not Great Fireball? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 00:37, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Jutsu can be performed with less hand seals if a ninja is talented. It is speculation that this is a different jutsu. S im A nt 02:02, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Moreover, an unnamed jutsu used by an unnamed character is almost impossible to find, and therefore almost completely useless. ~SnapperTo 02:39, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * @Snapper2, what do you mean impossible to find? I gave an exact page cite, and how would it be useless.
 * @Simant, it does not resemble any other fire jutsu by its shape, and talented ninja are usually given more face time, this guy was not given that kind of recognition. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 04:48, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Fire doesn't have a definite shape. Also, someone can be talented and not be in the limelight. S im A nt 04:52, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Pretend I am reading the manga. I see some nameless character use some nameless jutsu. (Also pretend I need to read an article to tell me what happens in this one panel.) How do I find it? Search for Konoha Ninja ? Comb through a list of fire jutsu and try to figure out what arbitrary name someone decided to give this? There is no way to find this article unless you know where it is. ~SnapperTo 04:53, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * @Simant, the fire jutsu thus far has had specific shapes though (even dragons) until it actually collides with something.
 * @Snapper2, is that a reason to delete it? Moreover, if one does want to find the jutsu, there are only 15 manga fire jutsu, several with well known names or obviously not the one (Sage:---, or Hanzo's, etc.) so that would not be a real problem. Or do you just want another name? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 17:12, July 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * *forgot filtering capabilities*
 * In other news, I dislike unnamed articles in general. 90% of unnamed articles are no more informative than the name they are given or in what context they are linked to. "Levitation Technique" about sums up that article, and "Shima uses a fire jutsu when helping perform Sage Art: Goemon" is the full extent of that particular ability. "Fire Release: Fire Breath" just happens to be a double whammy of these issues. ~SnapperTo 19:08, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

You know this could simply be a simple Fire Release: Flame Bullet. Wasn't it called the "most generic technique" Cerez365 (talk) 01:17, July 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Doesn't that jutsu (Flame Bullet) require oil?
 * Perhaps there should be instead made a page for unnamed fire jutsu? Then perhaps that could be more useful in not only finding this particular jutsu, but for future occurrences of unnamed fire attacks?--Sukashii (talk) 01:56, July 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * No it doesn't require oil that's why it's called "generic" because most katon users can probably use it. Cerez365 (talk) 02:07, July 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * Um...Master Cerez365, I cannot find the 'generic' part, in fact: 'The Fire Release: Flame Bullet technique is executed by the user gathering oil in their mouth which is created by chakra, spits it out, and ignites it. This technique simply shoots a flame bullet at the enemy.' Snapper2 does have a point about jutsu where only the name is used, but I cannot see a way to do it without complicating the system even more. Regardless, that is not the point here. One point though on generic stuff, and yes this is speculation, but with learning wind change in nature the user lets some cutting wind out the palms without hand-signs, what about a small fire ball for fire change in nature? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 04:08, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Okay, back up. What are the problems with this jutsu again? Just to make it clear after all of the discussion about it. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 00:18, July 31, 2010 (UTC)

Anyone? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 00:21, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

For the lack of better arguments coming on me now, I'll say that it feels rather unnecessary. I skipped the talk above, and from what I saw in the article, it could very well be a Great Fire Ball after the user finished the seals, and maybe the shape is odd because it already hit something, or because it's being countered by something that is obscured by the fire. It's too irrelevant. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:30, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * 'Irrelevant.' Even if I am off, it should be raised. To start, and no offense meant, but your argument seems to depend upon Great Fireball being the main form of fire release, especially those that looks like fireballs. I will grant you the seals part is a possibility, but for the fire to be that deformed it would have to hit something pretty big, like a human, and the panel (or Kishi) would probably show that.
 * Plus, there is a Great Fireball section above. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 00:45, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * All the available info is too inclusive to say something with accuracy. With everything that is known, we can't say for certain if it is another jutsu or not. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:12, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, back up, new angle. We know it is a fire jutsu, yes? Next, we know it was a relatively unimportant one, otherwise Kishi would probably have shown the name, and Great Fireball is popular and important, yes? Moreover, Great Fireball is a perfect ball, and every picture of it has been huge, and if did hit something, would it not keep going? It charred a trench with Itachi so human flesh would not do much if it can vaporize dirt, so it must be far weaker. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:48, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * We've seen Kishimoto skip panels showing Naruto making Rasengan with clones because everyone knows that already. Probably the same case here. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:25, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * But usually for surprises for both the reader and his opponent, like with his deception with the Deva Pain at the end. This is different. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 17:33, August 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * It's a fire jutsu, it was not unimportant, it was inconsequential. Great fireball is a perfect ball when it is performed by a skilled user. Who are we to say whether this user failed to do it perfectly? S im A nt 17:37, August 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Harsh, but even Sasuke got it like this []. Even if he was a genius you can expect a chunin (at least that rank) to not use this unless he had sufficient skill. And even then, look at the size of it!! A Great Fireball, in all the pictures shown would for sure kill his enemies...and his allies...and at least a dozen civilians. It would be a stupid to use it. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 17:49, August 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Where does it say this guy is a chunin? Also, Naruto does stupid stuff all the time, why can't this guy? Also, I'm pretty sure people can vary the size of an elemental jutsu, one way or another. There have been various instances of jutsu not being the exact same every time they are used. S im A nt 00:04, August 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree jutsus can probably be scaled depending on the amount of chakra used and skill of user (just as how Sasuke's grand fireball wasn't that grand at the beginning). I just really don't see the need for this article --Cerez365 (talk) 00:08, August 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * It does not say he is a Chunin in the manga at all, but, due to his flak jacket, I felt it better to assume he was one during this discussion than a jonin. I will grant that a jutsu can be toned down, but that just brings us back to the discussion of whether there really is only 3 chunin-rank fire jutsu. As for the need for the article, I find that hurtful; I would think that this site, dedicated to the Narutoverse, should list all jutsu that we are aware of; even ones missed like others in the databooks. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 03:52, August 12, 2010 (UTC)

This artical is pointless, deletion is appropriate. First, no hand seals? There's no way of knowing, because we are seeing a snapshot of ALOT of action. He has a kunai, so what, maybe he pulled it out after his hands where free. As far as what this tech was, I think Fire release is enough. He made fire, he's from the Fire country big deal. This pannel is meant to give the reader a sense of the kind of melee going on. To read anymore into it is just pedantic. Arrancar79 (talk) 02:30, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hey, pedantic might seem appropriate (thanks for the new word!), but I am indeed a stickler for detail and that is one of the few normal sinobi vs. normal shinobi scenes so I looked through it and saw a fire jutsu. The hand-sign part can be debated, but I thought it telling that he had one hand full, and that one far away from his mouth. The fire country big deal part omitts that only two non-Uchiha are shown using fire jutsu from Knonoha (3rd Hokage and son). And if you want to list it just as a fire release   that is fine, but where exactly? The fact that someone can burst out some fire like that is noteworthy.
 * In summary, clarify what you mean by useless. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 04:51, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yea his hands are separated, but I mean he most likely used both hands to form the hand seals then drew the kunai with his left hand while putting his right hand to his mouth to blow fire. We are only seeing the relevant/exciting action. The Land of Fire is known for its fire users. Most of the main characters from Konoha don't for sake of variety, but seeing some random Konoha ninja do some random fire jutsu isn't noteworthy. If it was called by name or given more detail I'd be all for it, but it seems about as relevant as listing everyone who's ever held a kunai in the info box on the kunai page. Just my two cents. Arrancar79 (talk) 06:00, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, just one more point. Maybe it was Great Fireball, and he's just not that good at it. If you remember when Sasuke was learning to use it his was just a little puff of fire kinda' like the one in your pic. Could be his chakra was low, "running on fumes" if you will. :) Arrancar79 (talk) 06:29, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Even if you take the variety argument in, it does not hold for Suna with only two wind users (Gaara with Shukaku does not exactly count), plus we have numerous examples of one use jutsu from the Invasion of Pain Arc up, what makes this one different? Finally, as reffered to above, would you use a jutsu you were not skilled at in the middle of a battle? Would you be capable of doing so under such pressure? And this was supposed to be the opening salvo of the fight, why would his chakra be that low (life threatening). Thomas Finlayson (talk) 08:06, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well I looked it up, and the exact number of people that want fire spit in their face is NONE. Your missing the point, I'm saying it could be anything. Suna has many wind users, thats what they are known for even more than puppets. Thats why it's the land of Wind not Muppet land. As for other jutsu, maybe they shouldn't be there either you'd have to give an example. I'm sure the ones that made the cut this long must have a uniqe/noteworthy quality about them. Regardless we are talking about this jutsu, and this one does not. Arrancar79 (talk) 08:30, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * You are saying the jutsu could be anything, but I am saying it is something and it should stil be up. The countries had their names before the villages went there, and even so that was long enough ago to have new types of jutsu come forward (Kakashi and Danzo for example), but that is "way" off topic. There were 3 wind jutsu, 1 lighting jutsu, and 1 earth jutsu in the manga, and they mostly got one scene. They seem more prestigious now with some having anime pictures but they did not before, and we did not know if they would. The point being is that this cannot be dismissed for just being a one pannel scene. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 17:37, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Oh, and about the kunai, I decided to try the jesture myself, do a hand-sign with a kunai already in hand (tiger sign) in hand or grabbing it it, while firing, and it is just plain akward if not a little painful (pulls muscles a tad akwardly). I admit I am not in the best shape, so maybe you lot would have better results, but... Thomas Finlayson (talk) 01:10, August 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * While bringing the arm back while shown that is.

Aoba: in the image below he is shown with a cap, the Aoba we seen during the Chunin exam does not have one.

Image
So we are on the same track.

Decision Time
This has had it's head on the chopping block for almost a month, now it time for a decision.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 13:07, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * I see no benefit in keeping it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:37, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * agreed Cerez365 (talk) 16:47, August 14, 2010 (UTC)

I agree. I think it should be said that while being the only defender, Thomas Finlayson kept his arguments respectful. I think the anime version of this scene was in the chunin arena. I remember a ninja landing on the hand rail and blowing fire. Maybe someone could grab an image of this and make it the Fire release pic. If nothing else it will add some variety to the pics, and give a record of this jutsus use. Arrancar79 (talk) 18:12, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * That ninja is Aoba, and he appears to use Great Fireball. ~SnapperTo 19:21, August 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * That pretty much settles it for me, no need of this. S im A nt 12:55, August 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * (Sigh) Very well. Thank you Arrancar79 by the way. I am leaving a copy of the info though in case for any reason someone else wants to put it up later on. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 19:09, August 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * Alright it's settled then. I will create a userpage for the info (because, well. The talk page will most likely also get scrapped) when I can properly use my own computer.

You know, instead of just making these pages in the future, make them in your namespace first and then argue that it should be moved to the main namespace. In fact, bring up topics on talk pages before making changes. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:06, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * I will consider the first part, but for the second how long are we supposed to leave it up before just going and making the change if no one comments? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 06:10, August 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Usually when I do it, I give it from three to five days. If there is no reply by them, I make the change. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:29, August 17, 2010 (UTC)