Talk:Six Paths Senjutsu

Naruto
There have been arguments if he still has it or not, but after watching The Last, it's more likely he doesn't. In the movie, he had to use Shadow Clones as trampolines to propel himself through the air, if he could fly, he would have done so. He doesn't fly anywhere in Gaiden either, he runs.--Elve Talk Page 09:27, July 24, 2015 (UTC)
 * Bump--Elve Talk Page 12:45, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * If he lost SPS we need some actual statment or confirmation that he lost it because unlike arm or eye this technique not so obvious thing(since it is turn off'ble), so until proven otherwise he has it. ./ Rage gtx (talk) 12:50, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Cross-shaped pupils with no Sage Mode pigmentation (Gaiden, Boruto trailer)?--JOA2012:52, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Yet all his Jesus powers like TSB, Flight and Healing/Reviving are gone and so is the marking on his back.--Elve Talk Page 12:54, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * TSBs can be lost, as we know. The problem is that Six Paths Sage Mode – Naruto's version of Six Paths Senjutsu – is the cross-shaped pupils with no pigmentation around the eyes, as hinted by the latest databook. Not the markings on his back (for all we know, it just means that one has all the tailed beasts' chakras).--JOA2012:58, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

Not sure how literary it's supposed to be taken, but in the opening of The Last, the back thingy appears on Hagoromo after he becomes Jinchuuriki, it wasn't there before (can be seen in manga too when he and Hamura are battling mom, no back thingy) so yes, it probably has to do with the Tailed Beasts, but in that case... since it's gone... does that mean Naruto no longer has their chakras? I mean, no other Tailed Beast besides Kurama has been seen inside of Naruto post chapter 699.--Elve Talk Page 13:06, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * Maybe. People talk of Naruto's Chakra Mode in Gaiden as a Kurama-only Six Paths Sage Mode.--JOA2013:14, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * He doesn't seem to have any of the Six Paths Senjutsu powers in that form though. That would suggest pretty much what most people think (but Seel disagrees with) that chakras of all 9 Tailed Beasts are needed for Six Paths Senjutsu.--Elve Talk Page 13:24, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * If that's really the case, then I'm almost positive that chakra doesn't just disappear for good, they resurface eventually unlike the TSB's. Either way, on both fronts, Naruto would still have SPSM.--Mina [[Image:Hatake Symbol.svg|20px]] talk 13:33, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * One reason Naruto didn't use Six Paths Sage Mode in the last may be the fact the anime had yet to reach that point.--JOA2013:56, July 25, 2015 (UTC)
 * They kept Sasuke's Rinnegan, Kakasi is Hokage etc. not to mention they showed Kaguya and stuff.--Elve Talk Page 14:00, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

Right, forgot about that. But it's difficult to decide he lost SPST/M until he or someone else say it.--JOA2014:02, July 25, 2015 (UTC)

technique?
Did the databook really list this as one? Isn't Six Paths Senjutsu a brand of techniques, like Ninjutsu?--Elve Talk Page 00:13, July 27, 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't think the databook uses this term at all. Or at least, I can't remember... • Seelentau 愛 議 00:15, July 27, 2015 (UTC)

Nagato and Hamura
The Jin no Sho article about the Chibaku Tensei states that it is "a sealing technique invoked by those who manipulate the Rikudo Senjutsu". This is the first sentence, only after that it differs between the normal CT and the SPCT. Based on this, Nagato and Hamura are able to use Rikudo Senjutsu. Could you guys edit the articles accordingly? :3 • Seelentau 愛 議 09:30, May 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, I'm not sure about Nagato since he hasn't shown any signs of the SPS use, although I'd agree with Hamura's use because of him being shown with the TSBs in the movie. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 11:51, May 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, this would complicate things. Aside from Nagato, Sasuke would also be a user. Is there no other way the text can be interpreted? Because that sounds like the biggest nonsense to come out of that book yet.--BeyondRed (talk) 12:00, May 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * It wouldn't be the first mistake coming from that book... Also, to me it's more of two techniques sharing same pages, since both techniques and users are seperated with "/"(地爆天星/六道　地爆天星 and Nagato/Naruto, Sasuke, Hagoromo and Hamura). --JouXIII (talk) 12:33, May 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * I think we had this topic before or something similar.--Elve Talk Page 12:35, May 10, 2016 (UTC)


 * No @Seelentau if i remember correctly FF-Suzaku translation this line was about Six Paths Chibaku Tensei - wich means, this particular jutsu is from SPS, if my memory is correct then Six Paths Chibaku Tensei is not Dojutsu but SPS justu. Rage gtx (talk) 12:49, May 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * I found it here:

"Chibaku Tensei / Six Paths Chibaku Tensei" has a single entry, and lists "Nagato / Naruto and Sasuke, Hagoromo and Hamura" as its users. It's a kekkei genkai sealing jutsu.

Six Paths Chibaku Tensei is invoked when two users simultaneously touch their target with the "Yin" and "Yang" seals. It rips a giant chunk of earth up and turns it into a heavenly body, becoming the Prison of Six Paths (六道の獄 Rokudō no Goku) that can capture all things (万物捕, "banbutsuto"). It's a sealing jutsu that can be used by individuals who awaken Six Paths Senjutsu. "Chibaku Tensei" is the version that can be used by a single individual, while "Six Paths Chibaku Tensei" is a more powerful version that requires two individuals simultaneously combining the power of Yin and Yang. It turns the sealing target into a gravity core in the sky, which attracts chunks of earth that bury them alive. This forms a heavenly body in the sky that can act as a prison for even a tailed beast. The section in the bottom left describes how the moon was the result of Six Paths Chibaku Tensei, and that so much chakra was contained within that it turned into a gigantic sattelite. It also describes it as a giant sealing stone (封印石 "Fuinseki"), which implies that Kishimoto took some inspiration from those giant "sealing stones" you sometimes see -- the big boulders with the kanji inscribed on them, usually with the ceremonial ropes adoring them. - by FF-Suzaku from http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:150619  Rage gtx (talk) 12:52, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

Whenever I do something like this, you can be sure that I checked every available translation/discussion beforehand. So yeah, what Suzaku did was paraphrase it, it's not a 1:1 translation. The first sentence of the main body (suzakun's third sentence) is 六道仙術を操る者だけが発動できる封印術. , which means A Sealing Technique only those who manipulate the Six Paths Senjutsu can invoke.. Only afterwards it says that two versions exists, the normal CT and the SPCT used by power of Yin and Yang owners. As for the separation of the users, that's true. Nagato is a user of CT, N&S and H&H are users of SPCT. But we knew that anyway. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:47, May 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * So Nagato, Hamura and Sasuke are users of SPS based on the databook's explanation of Chibaku Tensei? Ay dios, that's not going to sit well with some. XD So how much more info from the databook has been overlooked? 16:53, May 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes. And no idea, but it will be released in June in Germany, Imma buy it and see if I can find anything interesting, then check the original for it. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:59, May 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * Then I guess we seriously don't know what SPS is then. Because judging from the article, SPS is the transformation, but neither Sasuke or Nagato went through that transformation, yet apparently have SPS anyway. So isn't it clear that SPS isn't the transformation Naruto, Obito, Madara, Hagoromo and presumably Hamura went through, then? 17:22, May 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well there is still manga fact that Nagato don't have SPS - Preta path turned into frog from Naruto's Senchakra if Nagato had SPS(or anything with Senjutsu) that would not have happened. Rage gtx (talk) 17:24, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

@Tau, also, what would we do with the infobox pic? Since now, SPS apparently isn't the transformation itself, but the infobox implies so with it's picture... 17:30, May 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * Maybe we should hold on to avoid, some edit wars, this actually may be one of Databook slip-up since i sure that in manga Madara called Naruto power as SPS and counterparted it to Sasuke's Rinnegan, now whole his remark seems strange and poitless if Sasuke had both powers. Rage gtx (talk) 17:36, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

Nagato's path successfully absorbed all of Naruto's Senjutsu, only when Naruto started absorbing more Senjutsu, as much as her could did it turn the path into stone. Nagato was simply not able to deal with the sudden mass abundance of Senjutsu. Hamura having it is kind of not a shocker at all. Nagato having it is acceptable I guess. QuakingStar (talk) 18:21, May 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes but after that Nagato remarked that senjutsu seems quite dangerous power - as if he never had dealt with it. Now if he knew it all along this seems rather stupid Rage gtx (talk) 18:32, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

As stated, Madara said that Naruto got SPS while Sasuke Rinnegan. He didn't say Sasuke got both SPS and Rinnegan, while Naruto just SPS, not to mention Naruto was used to demonstrate SPS, not Sasuke.--Elve Talk Page 18:43, May 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * Whenever I think things have settled, something like this shows up. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:27, May 10, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, even if the sentence only refers to the SPCT, it would still mean Sasuke and Hamura got it. • Seelentau 愛 議 09:16, May 11, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well in Sasuke/Naruto's case one who made Yin/Yang seal was Hagoromo, isn't it like when Konoha 11 used Naruto's rasengans? Rage gtx (talk) 09:19, May 11, 2016 (UTC)
 * I would say Hagoromo kinda gifted the technique to them, meaning they didn't have to be SPS users themselves to use it, the seals even disappeared afterwards and returned back to Hagoromo's palms.--Elve Talk Page 09:47, May 11, 2016 (UTC)
 * Does the databook article imply the Rinnegan is in any way responsible for the Six Paths variant? The shared page has the kekkei genkai classification, but that could refer to the Deva Path's variant. If the Six Paths version does require the Rinnegan and/or Six Paths Senjutsu, it could be reasoned that Hagoromo himself contributes both as he's the one who hands out the seals, or that Naruto contributes one and Sasuke the other. That would still imply that Hamura has senjutsu though, which really isn't far-fetched at all.--BeyondRed (talk) 10:42, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

Why would Six Paths Senjutsu refer to the transformation? We have the term 'Six Paths Sage Mode' for that no? As far as the regular versions go, Senjutsu=techniques, Sage Mode=state. Logically, the same would apply to the Six Paths versions. D.Phoenix (talk) 05:02, May 12, 2016 (UTC)


 * It is strange that we treat Six Paths Senjutsu as a technique rather than a type of technique. If anything, it should go in a character's "unique traits" section, but arguably so could regular senjutsu since the databook treated it like one.--BeyondRed (talk) 09:29, May 12, 2016 (UTC)

It appears after this latest episode "Hamura Chakra" is just another variant of "Six Paths Chakra/Senjutsu". Leads us to question what Hinata gained when she was given Hamura's chakra when you think about it. All nature types for Hinata? As for Nagato, he never seemed to use Senjutsu at any point, but then again, he never genuinely awakened the Rinnegan, just honed it, which could be why he never displayed Six Paths Senjutsu. Shock Dragoon (talk) 12:20, May 12, 2016 (UTC)

@BeyondRed Yeah, the 4th databook has no section in the techniques chapter for SP Senjutsu; it has the SP Sage Mode and SP Ten-Tails Coffin Seal. Six Paths Senjutsu comes from Madara's words right? Any chance that was a mis-translation?D.Phoenix (talk) 17:47, May 12, 2016 (UTC)
 * Nope. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:49, May 12, 2016 (UTC)


 * Right, my bad, just realized I phrased the question incorrectly. SPS was in the databook. Does Six Paths Senjutsu refer to the transformations on this wiki because of Madara's words? D.Phoenix (talk) 17:59, May 12, 2016 (UTC)


 * When that chapter first came out, before we knew about Six Paths Sage Mode, this page was created under the name "Six Paths Sage Technique". It was eventually changed to Six Paths Senjutsu to be consistent with regular senjutsu, but the page remained a technique page rather than a classification. Madara's transformation is actually called "Six Paths Sage Transformation" a couple of times in the databook, but it didn't get an entry in the technique section so not much was ever done about it here.--BeyondRed (talk) 18:09, May 12, 2016 (UTC)
 * Where was Madara's form called Senninka? • Seelentau 愛 議 18:13, May 12, 2016 (UTC)
 * It's in the entry on Lightning Dispatch and I think one other place, but I can't remember where exactly.--BeyondRed (talk) 18:36, May 12, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's called Rikudo Senninka there, but I think it's not Six Paths Sage Transformation, but Sage of Six Paths-ification. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:29, May 12, 2016 (UTC)
 * So bottom line is that this article needs a bit of revising since Six Paths Senjutsu does not refer to the transformation/state? I thought Obito's and Madara's transformations do not have a proper name. Characters have only said that the two Ten-Tails Jinchuurikii became like Hagoromo, and the databook only had a section for the sealing technique.D.Phoenix (talk) 20:28, May 12, 2016 (UTC)
 * Dunno if there's a bottom line when the series' logic failures are bottomless... • Seelentau 愛 議 20:44, May 12, 2016 (UTC)

Then why don't we make an article or sub-section for it then @Seelentau? You have all the viz colored raws and the db's so you could solve any dispute right?? It's a good thing you're on this wikia.. OrganioDinosaur is a good help too though she isn't on here.. QuakingStar (talk) 22:42, May 12, 2016 (UTC)

Just realized Nagato does not have SPS Chakra, he like Sasuke has Six Paths Chakra thanks to the Rinnegan which also grants all Natures plus yin, yang, and yinyang. Right? QuakingStar (talk) 00:02, May 13, 2016 (UTC)

If Hamura actually posses Six Paths Senjutsu then doesn't Toneri and possibly Hinata? Considering Toneri reawakened Hamura's chakra and obtained the Tenseigan as well as the ability to use Truth-Seeking Balls? Something that so far has only been seen in Six Paths Senjutsu users? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 02:32, May 13, 2016 (UTC)
 * Thing is, the databook also says that the TSB blossom behind those who achieved the SPST... and none of the guys discussed here have TSB, aside of Hamura. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:08, May 13, 2016 (UTC)

Is there anything to indicate that Hamura is really a user? Because if you see by this databook information, "sealing technique invoked by those who manipulate the Rikudo Senjutsu", may well have been Hagoromo using Six Paths Senjutsu to invoke Chibaku Tensei, and Hamura can simply have contributed with the Six Paths Yin Power... Master Hyūga (talk) 18:12, May 13, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, he could use TSB and in the upcoming episode he is shown with the SPS back pattern.--Elve Talk Page 18:39, May 13, 2016 (UTC)

Toneri does have Truth-Seeking Balls though. Hinata doesn't, so she isn't a user then but Toneri definitely is if it's true that only those with Six Paths Senjutsu can use them. In that case, wouldn't Kaguya possess it too? Considering Madara and Obito obtained it after becoming the Ten-Tails' Jinchuriki and it's actually just Kaguya merged with the Shinju? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 04:28, May 14, 2016 (UTC)


 * Going by the databook, the Ten-Tails itself is able to manipulate natural energy but doesn't use senjutsu. Kaguya is probably the same, seeing as Naruto said she was one with nature.--BeyondRed (talk) 04:47, May 14, 2016 (UTC)

Hamura has been listed as a user of Six Paths Senjutsu apparently because he is a user of Six Paths - Chibaku Tensei. Shouldn't Sasuke be added as well? D.Phoenix (talk) 02:07, May 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * I thought I had replied to this, but I clearly didn't. For me, it's clear that while SPS is required to use SPCT, clearly not all users have to have it. Sasuke doesn't have it, but he could use it because he performed the jutsu along Naruto, who does have SPS. When Naruto and Sasuke first started fighting Madara again after meeting Hagoromo, Madara singling out their new powers and mentioning he had both of them in one person makes no sense if Sasuke also had SPS by himself. Based on that, I would remove Hamura as a SPS user. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:44, July 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Hamura was shown with TSB though and the databook says TSB is a SPS thing.--Elve Talk Page 03:17, July 20, 2016 (UTC)
 * SPS having TSB as part of the package, and TSB being achievable only through SPS are different things, and there's also no unquestionable source for Toneri having it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:56, July 20, 2016 (UTC)

But we also know that Tenseigan users do indeed utilize Senjutsu, and Six Paths Senjutsu is merely the combination of Six Paths chakra with natural energy to create Six Paths Senjutsu is not? Would that, coupled with what the databook says, also not confirm Hamura and Toneri as users? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 05:50, July 20, 2016 (UTC)


 * We don't know for sure whether Tenseigan users utilize senjutsu (nothing in the translated novel so far) or that Six Paths Senjutsu is just Six Paths chakra + senjutsu since Kishimoto never saw fit to explain what it even is for some reason.--BeyondRed (talk) 07:14, July 20, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, since we have terms Six Paths Senjutsu and Six Paths Sage Mode I think it's quite obvious that they utilize Senjutsu but for some reason they are 'Six Paths' whatever it means and whatever it does to it. The databook doesn't mention any other source of acquisition of TSB besides SPS to my knowledge whatsoever, so Hamura and Toneri having them = there has to be some other way too is a flawed logic and assuming too much, instead of Hamura and Toneri having them = SPS users, which is a deduction, since no other way to get TSB was stated.--Elve Talk Page 15:11, July 20, 2016 (UTC)
 * The reason I'm so adamant about this is precisely for the lack of definition on what Six Paths chakra is. The most logical explanation would be something to do with Hagoromo's own chakra, and that makes it difficult for Hamura and Toneri to have anything to do with it, since Hamura has never been linked to any sort of Six Paths power on his own, and neither has Toneri. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:56, July 20, 2016 (UTC)

But Hagoromo and Hamura are fraternal twin brothers, who both inherited their mother's chakra who is the only one who had chakra to give. When Madara and Obito acquired the power of the Ten-Tails they also said they acquired "Six Paths Power" or whatever termed they used and were able to use TSBs, and we all know that the Ten-Tails is nothing more than Kaguya merged with the God Tree. So logically, the conclusion can be made that Six Paths chakra in reality is nothing more than the chakra that Kaguya, Hagoromo, and Hamura all share and it's come to be coined as "Six Paths chakra" because Hagoromo is the most famous of the group and it is often aligned with him: when in reality he is not the only one who has it.

We know when the chakra of all the tailed beasts is combined it recreates the Ten-Tails' AKA Kaguya's chakra and the jinchuriki awakens TSBs, we know when someone is bestowed Hagoromo's power they awaken TSBs, we know when someone is bestowed Hamura's power they awaken TSBs, and the fourth databook state that both Hagoromo and Hamura have Six Paths Senjutsu, they inherited their power from their mom, and they both naturally have TSBs. I also recall it being stated in The Last that the Tenseigan utilizes natural energy does it not? Even if it meant the energy vessel, the energy vessel is simply an amalgamation of Hamura's own Tenseigan and the Byakugan of countless Otsutsuki. Would that not confirm that Hamura uses senjutsu and so does Toneri as a result? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 05:07, July 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * If "Six Paths Power" is simply chakra from Kaguya, then technically everyone should have it, because Hagoromo in turn shared his chakra, inherited from Kaguya, to his ninshu followers, and from there ninjutsu was developed and spread to the entire world. In the movie at least, there was no mention of natural energy as far as the Tenseigan is concerned. I've heard the novel expands on it a bit, but I've never seen anything conclusive from any reliable source, so to me that's hearsay at most. The root issue here is that the highest order source of information offers conflicting information. For example, databook says that those with SPS awaken TSB, but the same databook does not list TSB as senjutsu, nor lists canonical users. To me, the best explanation for TSB comes from the "innate ability to grasp the nature of chakra and comprehend all universal things" that comes from having Hagoromo's power, as mentioned in SPSM. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:41, July 23, 2016 (UTC)

Over time chakra becomes diluted though as the bloodline thins, as seen with both Asura and Indra who only inherited half of their father's respective chakra and neither had Six Paths Chakra naturally. It's only awakened when both of their chakras are combined together into one; to recreate their father's chakra. As for the Senjutsu issue, I'd argue that forgetting to classify a certain branch of Jutsu or list certain users is far easier than writing an entirely false section. Every confirmed SPS user has TSBs, and all Toneri did was reawaken Hamura's power when he got the Tenseigan with TSBs. Even if we go by what you believe to be the best explanation, Hagoromo's power is something he inherited from his mother and shares with his brother. So this would only further my point that they're all basically using the same exact thing which explains the manifestation of TSBs in them all. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 00:35, July 27, 2016 (UTC)
 * TSB being senjutsu in any way raises more questions than it solves. The only explicit thing mentioned connecting the two is that senjutsu is immune to the YYR that gives TSB its ninjutsu-cancelling effect. If TSB itself is senjutsu, it should be weak against itself, or at least capable of negating senjutsu as well as ninjutsu, since senjutsu isn't some selective transformation of chakra, and affects base chakra before any sort of nature transformation, so any YYR would also be senjutsu YYR. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:29, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

Naruto explained that the reason why Senjutsu works against TSBs is because it's using natural energy against natural energy. It's basically causing some type of clash between the two colliding forces of natural energy based on his explanation which causes the TSBs to become distorted and weaken: because they're partially made up of it. It causes some type of cancel-out effect that results in the destruction of their integrity. It may not be fully explained, but it confirms that they do indeed utilize Senjutsu. Unless the translation I read from is wrong? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 02:07, July 27, 2016 (UTC)
 * When Naruto first notices this, he strikes Obito with a senjutsu Rasengan. However, his attack lands on Obito directly, and injures him directly, though Obito still regenerates from it. He didn't break through Obito's TSB to do this. He recalls sensing the Ten-Tails through Sage Mode earlier in the fight, and figures natural energy can work against natural energy. The natural energy imbued thing he's talking about is Obito himself, because he's the jinchuriki of the Ten-Tails, not the TSB. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 04:36, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

But he came up with this conclusion after seeing Senjutsu being used on the TSBs, and it works on both the Jinchuriki themselves and the TSBs. This would mean that they both utilize natural energy, especially since the TSBs are made up of the TTJ's own chakra. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 05:12, July 27, 2016 (UTC)
 * That's true, Gama's Water Release dissolved Obito's TSB on the grounds that it was infused with natural energy and explained with words that only natural energy can beat natural energy.--Elve Talk Page 12:23, July 27, 2016 (UTC)
 * And his conclusion was tested and validated against the jinchuriki's body, not the TSB. Gamakichi's attack did not dissolve Obito's TSB, stop making things up. Obito blocked the attack, the attack was not ninjutsu erased, and Obito simply undid the shield after the attack had been blocked. The only thing it did was not be instantly destroyed as other things were, and adhere to it, like other starch-based Water Release jutsu do. The next time a senjutsu attack is used against TSB is when Tobirama teleports Naruto and Minato in full Kurama transformation with a massive senjutsu Rasengan, and aside from not being instantly erased, the attack just cracks the TSB shield a bit, with Naruto opting to up the ante by going with a TBB instead, so clearly senjutsu doesn't dissolve TSB. You're also still lacking an explanation as to TSB can't erase senjutsu if it itself is also senjutsu, because making chakra into senjutsu chakra happens before application of nature transformation, so if it was senjutsu, the YYR power would also be senjutsu. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:50, July 27, 2016 (UTC)

That doesn't change the fact that Naruto only came to that conclusion after witnessing what happened when Senjutsu came into contact with the TSB. We know TSBs are weak to Senjutsu, we know Naruto came to this conclusion after seeing TSBs being unable to simply negate it, we see that Senjutsu can actually harm and destroy TSBs, and the only explanation that we do have is Naruto saying that natural energy works against itself. I don't have a full explanation because there isn't one, I'm just going based on what we actually know for sure: and that points to TSBs also being made up of natural energy which is why natural energy works against them. The sheer fact that only those with Six Paths Senjusu awakens TSBs should make it even more obvious that they're a branch of Senjutsu. Ten-Tails' Jinchurikis get SPS and get TSBs, Hagoromo has SPS and so do Asura and Naruto who he gave it to and they all have TSBs, Hamura has SPS and so does Toneri who literally reawakened Hamura's power and they both have TSBs, but even Sasuke who did get Hagoromo's Six Paths chakra doesn't have TSBs? Why is that? Because he lacks the Senjutsu part. I don't know how it can be any clearer or more of a basic logical conclusion that they all very much have Six Paths Senjutsu and are granted Truth-Seeking Balls as an extension based on what the fourth databook says. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 19:39, July 29, 2016 (UTC)
 * If TSB are senjutsu, they shouldn't be able to use YYR to negate ninjutsu in the first place. If senjutsu prevents YYR from having its negating effect, then by the very nature of being senjutsu, it should be impossible to apply YYR to TSB for them to have ninjutsu cancelling effects. They're fundamentally opposite, mutually exclusive effects. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:41, July 29, 2016 (UTC)
 * Just because YYR can't erase Senjutsu, doesn't mean Senjutsu prevents its YYR from erasing Ninjutsu. Actually to me it makes sense Omni... The YYR negating effect in TSB can't erase Senjutsu, because since TSB is Senjutsu, it would erase itself otherwise.--Elve Talk Page 02:11, July 30, 2016 (UTC)
 * If TSB itself is senjutsu, it shouldn't be able to hold that effect to be used against other ninjutsu in the first place. There's no selective negation, like I won't negate my ninjutsu, just others'. From the moment Obito turned on YYR, it started nullifying ninjutsu. You are either ninjutsu-negating, or senjutsu, you can't be both at once. It's like the Third Raikage spear and shield contradiction. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:32, July 30, 2016 (UTC)
 * My point is that that's why it can negate Ninjutsu but not Senjutsu, since it itself is Senjutsu and the negation doesn't work on it. If it were to work on Senjutsu, TSB being one would erase itself.--Elve Talk Page 11:53, July 30, 2016 (UTC)
 * The problem with your point is that you can't have it both ways. If TSB is senjutsu, it shouldn't be capable of negating ninjutsu with YYR. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:46, July 30, 2016 (UTC)

I get what you're saying Omni, but I think Elve's logic is the logic that Kishimoto himself went with. Yes if Senjutsu can counter YYR then the TSBs shouldn't be able to employ both Senjutsu and YYR, cause they would work against each other and make the balls fizzle, but that clearly isn't the case in the actual series when we straight up have Naruto telling us that natural energy works against itself when we TSBs and the TTJ finally taking some damage. I think you're thinking far too deep about this even moreso than Kishi and his team are themselves, as TSBs are stated to be derived from a form of Senjutsu and they're weak to natural energy cause it works against itself. That is enough to confirm that they're Senjutsu, even if logically they shouldn't be able to employ YYR and both Senjutsu because they're already Senjutsu to begin with because the application of natural energy happens before nature transformation. But it is what it is, and that's what the series is telling us, and we can't just ignore it cause personally it doesn't make much sense to us. There is a lot of plotholes and inconsistencies in this series, this would not be the first. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 00:02, August 1, 2016 (UTC)
 * Then I want the plot-hole listed and spelled out in a trivia section for everyone to see, and a mention that despite the databook mentioning SPS in the text, the senjutsu category itself is not listed in the TSB entry. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:16, August 1, 2016 (UTC)

Then you or another more experienced editor should do it, I enjoy reading this wiki's articles and contributing information to them from time to time. But I won't act like I'm good at actually editing them myself and citing their sources. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 01:04, August 1, 2016 (UTC)
 * So TSB got added as a senjutsu technique... hmm... loving how that decision came out of a discussion that was supposed to be about Nagato and Hamura having SPS. 14:41, August 6, 2016 (UTC)
 * Despite similar discussions reaching a not-senjutsu decision in the past, yes. Just check past relevant archives. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:06, August 6, 2016 (UTC)

Toneri
Based on the decision we made earlier, I think it's time that we list Toneri as a user. If the fourth databook says that only those with Six Paths Senjutsu awaken Truth-Seeking Balls, then Toneri's Tenseigan Chakra Mode is derived from such. This would make sense, as Toneri simply reawakened Hamura's own power by re-converging his scattered bloodlines: and we know Hamura uses Six Paths Senjutsu per databook. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 02:52, August 6, 2016 (UTC)
 * I 100% agree with you, but one of the reasons why people oppose this is their reasoning: 'too many unknowns' or so.--Elve Talk Page 12:57, August 6, 2016 (UTC)
 * No evidence Toneri has it. You're attributing his supposed SPS to having the Tenseigan. Except Hamura had TSB/SPS long before he had Tenseigan, so Tenseigan is not a source of senjutsu power. And I don't know of any translation of TSB's entry in the databook adding a "only" to that opening sentence. It says "those who awaken SPS manifest TSB", not "only those who awaken SPS manifest TSB". Stop twisting words. I still also have yet to see a reliable translation of whatever the novel says about either Tenseigan, eye or device, having anything to do with natural energy. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:06, August 6, 2016 (UTC)

Truth-Seeking Balls are Senjutsu, so the fact that Tenseigan Chakra Mode grants them confirms that the Tenseigan uses Senjutsu, and the Tenseigan is Hamura's power, who uses Six Paths Senjutsu which is stated to grant TSBs. Do we really need every single little detail to be confirmed for us? Can we not simply use common sense and connect the dots ourselves? The opening paragraph on the Tenseigan Energy Vessel page literally says it has the ability to collect and amplify natural energy, so clearly it must've been stated somewhere. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 00:20, August 7, 2016 (UTC)
 * If this was only connecting A to B, no problem, what this whole subject is doing, is going from one writing system to another. I saw you added the senjutsu part in the TSB article, yet conveniently left out adding the contradiction in the trivia, as agreed, which I had to add. The Energy Vessel and the dojutsu might share a name, but they're very clearly not the same thing. The only place I've heard the energy vessel being related to natural energy in any way is in the novel, something I have yet to see a reliable translation of anywhere. And still, even if the energy vessel is connected to natural energy, that doesn't mean the dojutsu is. And rife with mistakes as the databook is, it not marking TSB as senjutsu makes logical sense, for the reasons I painstakingly explained. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:44, August 7, 2016 (UTC)
 * The Tenseigan containing Hamura's eye(s) at its core and utilizing natural energy are both just hearsay at this point. All that's been translated on the subject so far is that Toneri says Hamura is the origin of the Tenseigan, but we don't even know if he means the energy vessel or the dōjutsu (or both). Not only that, the translated novel is up to Shikamaru's team staging an attack on Toneri's castle, so it's looking increasingly unlikely that we'll get any further explanations, unless there are expository scenes that were scrapped from the movie entirely. I'd argue that until the novel is fully translated (or another source is found), all of that stuff should be removed as we may currently be stating somebody's fanfiction as fact.--BeyondRed (talk) 02:13, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

Even if we disregard the novel entirely, Jin no Sho says those that awaken Six Paths Senjutsu get Truth-Seeking Balls so that's the only confirmed way to get it. I've also already explained why the Manga confirmed that they're Senjutsu based on Naruto's own explanation, and the trivia part can be added later as it's not that relevant. The point is, the databook seems to have a habit of not adding people to lists or classifying certain Jutsu correctly so that shouldn't be used to support your argument. It said those with SPS get TSB, we know Hamura has SPS and TSB, and we know Toneri got TSB after he awakened some of Hamura's power within himself: so Toneri logically uses Six Paths Senjutsu to do so and his mode is derived from such. It's really that simple. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 03:55, August 7, 2016 (UTC)
 * The fact there's such a strong contradiction means a trivia is very relevant. And the same databook that says those who awaken SPS get TSB also doesn't list them as senjutsu. Your explanation requires cherry-picking arguments and information, mine doesn't. And again, saying that SPS grants TSB isn't the same as TSB being sourced solely from SPS. Your Tenseigan argument is still flawed, as Hamura already had TSB way before Tenseigan, and his dojutsu is in no way confirmed to deal with natural energy. Your entire article simply has no legs to stand on. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 04:06, August 7, 2016 (UTC)

But the Manga confirms them as Senjusu, so they are Senjutsu, so even if the databook doesn't list them as such they still are. Both the Manga and databook are being considered in my argument, you're almost entirely ignoring the Manga and focusing only on the databook. As for the rest, SPS is the only known way that TSBs are obtained, it may not be sourced as solely but it doesn't need to be because it's telling you how they are. There is no other known or implied way to obtain them, so that is how you get them, yet for some reason you think there is some other method to granting them in Toneri's case because he wasn't directly stated to use SPS even though he uses a Jutsu derived from SPS and awakened the power of someone who had SPS too. Hamura having TSB before Tenseigan doesn't even matter, because Toneri awakened Hamura's chakra in his body which is what allowed him to get Tenseigan. It's an exact mirror of how Madara awakened the Rinnegan when his own and Hashirama's chakras combined to recreate Hagoromo's chakra. The only flaw in this mirroring of how the dojutsu is awakened is that in Toneri's case he also got TSBs while Madara didn't. But the rest of what I said still stands, you're basically arguing that Toneri doesn't have SPS for no real reason. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 04:38, August 7, 2016 (UTC)
 * If the manga had been as clear about them being senjutsu as you claim it to have been, they'd have been listed as senjutsu a long time ago, and discussions about whether they were senjutsu or not would not have gotten as long as they have. I'm not ignoring the manga, though you seem to be, as you're only focusing on Naruto's words, and completely ignoring the entire analysis I did of what he said versus what he did, as far as attacking Obito went, and what Obito's TSB did and did not do. Also on the manga side, you just ignore the entire paradox of something being ninjutsu-erasing and senjutsu at the same time. Just because something can be sourced in natural energy, it doesn't mean it always is senjutsu. Just look at Tenpenchii. Ten-Tails interferes with natural energy with its chakra, but the jutsu itself isn't senjutsu. Toneri awakening the same dojutsu as Hamura isn't the same as him suddenly having every power Hamura has ever possessed, and Tenseigan, once again, has not ever been linked with senjutsu. Your entire argument is built on one skewed interpretation that ignores a lot of information, and from there making tremendous logical leaps. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:00, August 9, 2016 (UTC)
 * But why is something being Ninjutsu erasing and also being Senjutsu at the same time a problem to you? What exactly is Ninjutsu in the first place? Chakra transformed to have some effects. We were told that it's the YYR aspect that can erase it, so suppose it works that YYR chakra can erase all chakra, unless it's Senjutsu?--Elve Talk Page 20:44, August 9, 2016 (UTC)
 * It was made very clear that ninjutsu-erasing YYR doesn't affect senjutsu. If TSB were senjutsu, the ninjutsu-erasing YYR would not be applicable to it in the first place, it would not be able to take on ninjutsu-erasing capabilities because it's the very thing immune to it. I've lost track of how many times I've said that already. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:06, August 9, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, Senjutsu is immune to YYR, so if TSB is Senjutsu, it doesn't erase itself because of that, but how does YYR not erasing Senjutsu make it not possible to erase Ninjutsu while being Senjutsu? I don't understand your thought pattern behind it, doesn't make sense to me.--Elve Talk Page 22:44, August 9, 2016 (UTC)
 * Nope. Nowhere does it say that being ninjutsu-erasing YYR means the jutsu would erase itself. Nothing indicates the jutsu would be self-consuming. It simply just is NNYYR. Since NNYYR doesn't affect senjutsu, that means TSB can't be senjutsu in the first place, as it would prevent NNYYR from being part of it in the first place. They're mutually exclusive qualities. That would be like Dust Release needing to have another completely separate characteristic for the jutsu to be usable, to not atomize itself before being used against others. For the sake of argument, imagine NNYYR is its own separate jutsu. The way you're putting it, every NNYYR would have to be senjutsu for it to be of use. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:06, August 10, 2016 (UTC)

Because Naruto said natural energy works against itself, which means natural energy is being used in the TSBs, and we know they're spheres of black malleable chakra manifested from those who awaken SPS. When natural energy is used alongside chakra, and stated to be a component of something that is using chakra, then it's using senjutsu chakra. As that is what we've been told and there is nothing that suggests otherwise. The rest of your argument and speculation is irrelevant, because it's right in your face that natural energy is being used. The Tenpenchii example is incomparable, because the Ten-Tails uses it's chakra to affect the natural world around it. That's not comparable to how TSBs work and are achieved, completely different mechanics. It's highly unlikely that we will ever get anymore new info regarding The Last, Tenseigan, and Toneri's chakra mode. But based on what we do know, the fourth databook tells us that those with SPS awaken TSB, every known user of TSB has SPS, except Toneri who didn't get his TSB.... until he awakened the power.... of someone who does have SPS. The series is literally hitting you over the head, it is so painfully obvious based on all of the information that we have gathered so far that debating it is pointless. You're quite literally saying "I'm not going to list Toneri as a Six Paths Senjutsu user, even though he uses a jutsu that is stated to be granted to those who awaken SPS, because he was never directly stated to use senjutsu, even though he uses a jutsu that we know also uses natural energy, based on what Naruto said after using Senjutsu to counter itself." which is ridiculous. It is flat-out common sense. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 01:52, August 20, 2016 (UTC)