Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-30966312-20180413200754/@comment-33286580-20180525050142

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: Kurama wasn't referring to strength. He was referring to Sasuke being good at combining all Tailed Beast Chakras to one in order to absorb it into Perfect Susano'o. Later, he says also, "But he's doing the exact opposite of the old man..." which further proves he was talking about how well Sasuke was absorbing Chakra rather than overall power. Makes no sense that Sasuke is stronger than Hagoromo at this stage.

Yeah. it can be interpreted in that manner.

i am in no way saying that he suddenly became Hagoromo level. if i worded it so than my bad.

what Sasuke did was he essentially became TTJ but without sealing the power withing himself. his power rose to a new height and with the Hagoromo's chakra he recieved he went beyond Madara at his strongest.

he may not be close to TTJ Hagoromo level, but he came close in that power level.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: Okay, neither was used against Kaguya, but I still doubt they'd defeat her by themselves with it, but I guess it's debatable. If one of them is ever trapped in another dimension, it's over. Kaguya can easily do that without worrying about DMS Kakashi, Obito, and Sakura.

back then they could not even if they went all out. never will i say they could.

yeah. when Kaguya sent Sasuke to another that is what happened.

but here it is only Naruto fighting her so sending him to another dimension means nothing. she is just wasting her own chakra and it costs a load on her stated by Black Zetsu.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: My point with Juubi had to do with what you said about Kyuubi being close to Juubi in power. Kyuubi is powerful, but I don't think it can hold a candle to Juubi in my opinion.

yeah. it is same like SPSM and BM difference. too huge.

i just pointed out that Kurama was closest in power in comparision to other biju but not even close to be on the same.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: As for SPSM, Naruto can definitely defeat the Juubi, but one thing many people miss out when bringing the fact Naruto was stomping Juubidara was that Juubidara was already heavily weakened from fighting Guy. He almost died. He also had no intel on how Naruto gained SPSM. He didn't know that, so he was fighting him as if he was like how he fought him before he gained SPSM, which caused him to underestimate him. That's why he was surprised that Naruto didn't disappear after touching the TSO and was surprised he dodged Limbo. Also, Naruto did use Kyuubi Cloak to amp up his arm after punching Madara. And finally, even though Naruto was beating him up pretty badly, the result remained inconclusive. Madara never died or full-on lost the battle. Naruto retreated to recoup. Madara was busy absorbing the Shinju.

Ok. Naruto took Madara by surprise. agreed. and Madara was weakened. agreed.

but you have to remember that nothing ordinary works against Madara. to even hurt Madara it has to be something extraordinary. it is why Gai could only do so when he went 8Gate Mode.

Naruto's jutsu even cut Shinju in half and barely a few could even a break a branch before.

Naruto didnt went to recoup. he moved to get Gai out of danger and in safe hands.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: When did Naruto trade blow for blow with Eighty Gods Vacuum? In the ice dimension or lava dimension? I don't recall.

Lava dimension.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: Yeah, Naruto and Sasuke got a lot stronger as adults. But what feats are there that make them better than Hagoromo?

Killing fused Momo with a base Rasengan. smacking him around for good.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: We never actually saw prime Kaguya fight. Prime Kaguya would be the Kaguya right after eating the Chakra Fruit, so she'd have all the Chakra on Earth.

yeah. that is the real problem here.

how strong was really Kaguya? the Kaguya in the war was only missing part of 8 biju chakra and half of nine tails and chakra of Kakashi, Sakura and Obito. remember she only awakened when she more or less absorbed the chakra of all those sealed by IT.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: You make sense, but is it ever stated that being a reincarnation would actually give them power, or does being a reincarnation mean they're destined for power? It's sort of like Itachi saying that you must be acknowledged to become Hokage. I don't think that being a reincarnation means you'll get more power. I think that being one means you're destined to get more power, which for Naruto was Uzumaki reserves, Bijuu, and SPSM as well as SM.

indeed reincarnation gives power. the fact that only combining the chakra of the descendant of the two brother could awaken the Rinnegan means their chakra was passed on to the reincanations. Madara and Sasuke, being the reincarnation of Indra, had the same typ of Sharingan (not their design) something Madara commented on.

every Uzumaki has high reserves. it is so stated.

BM, SPSM and SM have nothing to do with being Uzumaki. Jiriaya learnt SM and Minato learnt SM and got BM and neither were Uzumaki. Obito got SPSM too/

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: Hagoromo and Hamura didn't have to be close to her power to match her together. They just have to be half each. The other can take care for the other.

them being half in power would just destroy them in all real sense. they didnt fuse together to equal Kaguya in power. if they were half her strenght than they would simply be destroyed. none of their defence can withstand full power of Kaguya. neither would their jutsu hurt her in any sense.

they at least have to be some decent level close to her to even defend or attack.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: And by the way, by this analogy, would it mean that Chakra gets multiplied or divided? Because as the series goes, it makes it seem like there is a total amount of Chakra on the Earth. But by your logic of how Chakra works, Hagoromo and Hamura would each have half of Kaguya's Chakra. So, either Kaguya would lose half of her Chakra to give Hagoromo and Hamura half of her power, or she would not and Chakra would multiply, which doesn't make sense since it would mean Earth has unlimited Chakra. Doesn't really make sense if Chakra multiplied. I think it's Chakra dividing as newer generations came.

Naruto's own chakra multiplied because chakra was given to him.

apart from the time when Hagoromo passed bits of Chaka to every individual, everyone was born with CHakra. Hagoromo and Hamura too.

Minato and Kushina didnt give Naruto their own Chakra for him to have his chakra. he was born with it and so did every subsequent generation after chakra was distributed.

it actually means that there is no fix amount of Chakra.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: I still don't think Momoshiki or Fused Momoshiki are stronger than Kaguya. Yes, it was stated they'd be greater threats, but Sasuke could have misinterpreted that as the whole Ootsutsuki clan being a greater threat rather than just the two or it could just be a wrong statement. Remember it was stated 14 year old Obito was a greater threat than Kurama. Yes, Obito was strong, but in terms of overall power, could he do more destruction than Kurama? Definitely no. Imo, statements need feats to support them. I personally don't think that Fused Momoshiki has feats to support him being stronger than Kaguya.

Momoshiki can be debated whether he is strong or stronger than Kaguya or not. i think he is not.

Fused Momoshiki on the other hand is clearly on a different scale.

Sasuke interpreted Momoshiki to be greater threat because by the time of the movie the two were the only Otstsuki. only by the time Boruto manga and anime came around we see more Otsutsuki.

Obito was considered greater threat because he essentially could manipulate like he wanted and he did so. indeed he is a greater threat when he could wield the power of Kurama at his will.

Momoshiki feats - they were able to enter Kaguya's dimension without any problem and unlike Sasuke did not lose any strenght. went on head to head with SPSM Kurama avtar and actually had the upper hand until Sasuke joined in his PS.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: I don't think it was ever stated Hagoromo or Hamura had their own Chakra. Kaguya referred to them as, "Oh my children, whom I shared my Chakra with."

Yes. it was. i dont know which chapter, but for reference check the wiki on Hagoromo and it is stated in the very first para of him.

the statement that Kaguya made, i think it was more of a reverse psychology of the Otsutsuki ideal where they essentiallly take away the chakra of their parents and make it their own.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: No, having both halves of Kurama doesn't multiply his power. You're forgetting SPSM and SM. SM and SPSM are unrelated to Kyuubi, so the Kyuubi wouldn't enhance those forms by two times, although it would enhance them.

SM aside. every mode is dependent on Kyubi. even SPSM to an extent as Naruto only has part of all the other Biju chakra.

it may not enhance the mode by twice exactly, but it will be close by as his chakra to plays a factor. if Naruto's own chakra has doubled over than it actually does more than twice.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: No, BM is after befriending Kurama. Most notably, in the War Arc, Naruto had a cape with BM. Later, the design is changed. He doesn't have to be in Kurama Avatar for BM. He's shown using it without it.

Okay. it was indeed BM. my bad there.

but dont you think that having the Biju fight on his owns in another battle actually leaves him wiith lesser chakra.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: And the fact the other half of Kurama went Kurama Avatar means it was BM.

yes.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: He released half the Kyuubi to fight the Hamura Golem, not the whole Kyuubi. If that were the case, he would not have Kyuubi Chakra with him.

can he even divide the Kurama into Yin and Yang?

and by your statement it means that he was fighting Toneri who was really top up there around Madara level or so with BSM which he used to fight against Jubito.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: Nah, just because they had the same Dojutsu doesn't mean they're same strength. I don't think Toneri was Hamura level.

how strong was toneri? toneri certainly didnt have any increase in power after Kaguya was sealed like Hagoromo.

If TTJ Hagromo created the moon with his powers and Toneri actually made a big hole through it and cut it in half, he is bound to be close to their level. he is at least TTJ Madara level.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: Momoshiki was immortal to time, not immortal to damage. Kaguya was actually shown to be immortal by damage. Rinnegan Sasuke flat-out stated that ONLY his Yin and Naruto's Yang could seal her.

that is the only problem i see. the immortality.

Kaguya was not immortal by damage. Naruto cut her arm and Kakashi injured her with SIx Paths Kamui Chidori.

on that note, neither injuries were healed so she apparently doesnt have regeneration ability...

really if one actually makes a vs thread with Kaguya at the least have her immortality out of the way, because hers is the most trickest and imposible to determine.

indeed Sasuke would say so. at that time they werent accustomed to their own powers and was given the power to seal her. so he would believe she cannot be killed.

It&#039;s Not Johnny wrote: I agree adult Naruto is stronger than War Arc, but I disagree with him being as strong as you think, so I don't think it's worth discussing adult Naruto. That's why I'm talking about vs Kaguya Naruto.

but adult Naruto is the one in the fight. so we have to see every little detail he shows to see how strong he has become.

using him from Kaguya battle is just give him a big L in the debate