Talk:Yagura Karatachi

Gender
There has been a discussion about this character's gender, which is unknown. I started the article with 'male' and 'him', then someone changed everything into 'female' and 'her', then someone else set it back to male. For now we must assume this Jinchuriki is male, but put 'Unknown' as his gender in the infobox. --Shinsaku 22:14, 10 January 2009 (UTC) to be honest i think it looks like a girl

Yuukimaru
do you think it's possible that the jinchuriki is Yuukimaru? because Kakashi said that Orochimaru would make a jinchuriki that he could easily control.

Sword? What?
That is clearly a staff weapon and not a sword on this jinchurikis's back. Why do we think it's Mangetsu Hōzuki?
 * You're right. In what world could a giant staff with a hook and a flower growing out of it be considered a sword? XxKibaxX (talk) 20:42, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Deceased?
Nothing is known about this guy, and nothing is known about the process of removing a tailed beast and setting it free (as opposed to Akatsuki sealing it). The 'age' box should be 'unknown', as the jinchuriki may very well be alive.
 * As far as we know, the removin of a tailed beast results in the death of its host. AlienGamer | Talk 08:17, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Unless the Sanbi never had a host: Yagura thus being only its master. Even if it sounds like a forum supposition, Yagura would not have been mentioned in the manga along with three other main characters unless he has a part to play or had a very important part to play (what has already been mentioned by him is not that great... so there will be more about Yagura, soon). I am of the opinion that age should be unknown, not deceased. - MadaraU (talk) 22:06, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Everything, including the manga, points to Yagura being dead. he was the former Mizukage, the current Mizukage talks about him in the past tense, and he was a jinchūriki beyond any reasonable doubt, meaning he would have died when he lost his Tailed Beast, or vice versa. Only an immense plot twist could bring him back to life. --ShounenSuki (talk 22:28, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I take back what I said about him not being a host given that when he first appeared it was said on the cover: a gathering of great hosts. But his deceased status is still something speculated: Sandaime Hokage was considered former Hokage when Minato was Hokage. Past tense means actually nothing when referring to someone, given that when past tense was used, the actions mentioned happened in the past (we are entering grammar lessons:))) ). It is true that the only known way of removing a Bijuu is by killing the host, but as I have just said it is simply the only KNOWN way, not the only way. Another way may exist and Madara chose not to use because this method better suits his evilness:D I again urge you guys to reconsider his deceased status to presumed deceased at best (like in Kushina's case), ja ne - MadaraU (talk) 19:07, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
 * We can't reconsider his deceased status on the off change there might another way to extract tailed beasts, one that wouldn't kill its host, that's very speculative. Chiyo, who has knowledge both on sealing techniques and tailed beasts, being the one responsible for sealing Shukaku in Gaara, said herself that hosts die should their tailed beasts be extracted. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:43, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I think Yagura is dead, but there is a minimal possibility that he is still alive, but without the Sanbi inside him. It would be like Gaara's dead because he was the Fourth Mizukage xD) and they found him dead, because someone extracted the beast time before Akatsuki. So he didn't want to come back to his position as Mizukage because there was a plot against him (we know that there were rumors of him being controllated for Akatsuki or something like that). Well, nobody knows what exactly happened with Yagura, because nobody saw how someone extracted the Sanbi from him and why was that. The same thing goes with Han, Utakata and Fuu: nobody saw them in action (the only thing we know about they are their appearance and the fact that the beasts had been captured, with the beast extracted and sealed away from them). They could had been revived without the knowing of Akatsuki, thing I really doubt. But, it's just my imagination... The point is: we don't know about Yagura, so he is maybe the only one who could had survived, with the obvious exception of Gaara...--Sunan (talk) 15:30, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I always believed this site was to be nonobjective. There is not a fact stating his or her death so his age should be unknown. We know that extracting a Bijuu in the manner that Akatsuki does it will result in the death of the host. However we do not know the effects if the host willingly releases his or her inner seal. Yagura was a master of his Bijuu to the likes that Chiyo can not know how their relationship works. Whatever your personal speculation is it should not be reflected in Yagura's page. Until he is stated by facts that he is dead then it should be left unknown. Your assumption he or she is dead is a speculation as well.--CFK (talk) 15:45, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * All Known methods of extracting a tailed beast results in the Hosts death...Untill they show some other technique, or its stated somewhere that there is a safer way, I say it stays as it is...--AlienGamer--Talk-- 17:50, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Would "presumed deceased" make everyone happy? We have no reason to believe Yagura is alive, but there's no specific indication that he's dead either. It works well enough for Rin... ~SnapperTo 18:16, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Seems like a fair compramise...--AlienGamer--Talk-- 18:19, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Works for me.--CFK (talk) 18:30, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
 * When a beast is removed from the jinchuriki, the jinchuriki is dead. We know this as fact. As Suki said, there would have to be a big, big plot twist for that to not happen.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 23:46, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Consider this one, killer bee escaped being extracted by the Akatsuki because he mastered his bijuus abilities. Yagura is safely within the same catagory. Maybe he split the bijuu into ying and yang forms like that of Minato did to the Kyuubi, thus creating another half of the same bijuu to roam around the world (this might greatly explain the filler in shippuuden with the turtle bijuu roaming around without a host)? Heck maybe Yagura merged himself within the bijuu seeing as if he mastered his bijuu, thus surviving death through living within his bijuu? Or maybe he or someone else extracted the bijuu from his body resulting in his death? The manga doesn't state this, neither does the anime, so we shouldn't jump to conclusions stating that he may be deceased. If anything, it should be "presumed deceased". -random fan. 10 March 2010

We can now say deceased as he was one of the people Kabuto revived, meaning ha dto have died at some point.Umishiru (talk) 09:43, December 27, 2010 (UTC)

Spe...speculation section?
I'm getting really confused now. I thought we bit the heads off all speculation. But this article has it's own speculation section? What exactly did I miss? ~Hakinu (talk 22:17, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
 * It seems that sometimes, some form of speculation is allowed when there are obvious clues to something. Like the glaring similarities between this jinchūriki and Yūkimaru. --ShounenSuki (talk 22:32, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * How about the second part, about being Suigetsu's big bro? The only clue is that Sui said he died early. ~Hakinu (talk 22:36, 8 June 2009 (UTC)


 * That's something I'd remove ^^ --ShounenSuki (talk 23:03, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Is this true?
I'm refering to this: http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=30523291&postcount=1

If yes, we should edit this stuff accordingly. --TekkenStorm (talk) 22:39, December 30, 2009 (UTC)

So any input, guys? --TekkenStorm (talk) 01:32, December 31, 2009 (UTC)
 * As much as I dislike Sleepy Fans, I have to say they are correct in this case.
 * Also, the Fifth Mizukage mentions that the Fourth Mizukage was being controlled by someone in chapter 458, page 10 and in chapter 461, page 11, she makes a direct connection between Danzō's genjutsu and the technique that was used to control the Fourth Mizukage. --ShounenSuki (talk 02:05, December 31, 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, the Fifth Mizukage mentions that the Fourth Mizukage was being controlled by someone in chapter 458, page 10 and in chapter 461, page 11, she makes a direct connection between Danzō's genjutsu and the technique that was used to control the Fourth Mizukage. --ShounenSuki (talk 02:05, December 31, 2009 (UTC)

Disambiguation style
Should we change this page to Yagura (Jinchūriki), then have the Yagura act as an disambiguation page that leads to either Yagura (Jinchūriki) or Yagura (anime)? Similar to Baku, Tora, and Tsubaki. Same suggestion for Gozu, Fu, Kage, Matsuri, Shin, Guren, Susuki, Momiji, Hiruko, Fuki and anyone else you cant think of. Yatanogarasu, 10:56, January 24 2010 (UTC)

Uchiha Madara
Why hasn't anyone mentioned that it is very likely Madara was the one who cast a Genjutsu on Yagura? After all, a Jinchuuriki with perfect control over his/her tenant is pretty much impervious to Genjutsu, unless of course it can affect the Bijuu; thus the Mangekyou Sharingan, which can control the actions of a Bijuu and confuse the senses of human and beast alike. Add this to the fact that Kisame called Madara a Mizukage, something Madara could only have been through a "puppet", not directly as he would have revealed himself to everyone, not just those like Kisame whom he trusted... and Kishimoto has pretty much guaranteed that this is what happened. Chris 94.69.151.1 (talk) 07:17, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

Because that's speculation. If later it is revealed that Madara manipulated Yagura, it'll be added. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:30, June 13, 2010 (UTC)

Anime debut (sort of)
I just noticed in the omake of Naruto: Shippūden episode 72 that there was Yagura's sillouette in the background (behind Yugito), does that count as an anime debut? KazeKitsune (talk) 00:58, June 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * Silhouettes tend not to be used for other characters (Itachi comes to mind). ~SnapperTo 02:33, June 29, 2010 (UTC)

Manga debut
Yagura's debut is currently his mention at the Kage Summit. However, other jinchūriki that debuted in the splash page have their debuts in that earlier chapter. Just so it's clear, does the mention of the character in-story supersede his appearance in the splash page? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:07, July 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * Apparently. ~SnapperTo 18:38, July 24, 2010 (UTC)


 * That would just be silly. It just needs to be changed, is all. --ShounenSuki (talk 19:50, July 24, 2010 (UTC)

New Pic
Chapter 507 has a good picture of Yagura. I'd do it myself but i don't know how. Someone want to upload his picture?--DemonFoxsCloak (talk) 01:12, August 28, 2010 (UTC)

Who sealed his bijuu?
If the jinchuriki needs to have 1 of the Kage to seal the bijuu, who sealed his bijuu?Him or another Mizukage?Amaterasu789 (talk) 01:10, October 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * We have no idea who sealed the Three-Tails into Yagura and it has never been said a jinchūriki needs to have a kage seal a tailed beast into them. —ShounenSuki (talk 01:29, October 20, 2010 (UTC)
 * Example: Chiyo was not a Kazekage. ~SnapperTo 01:42, October 20, 2010 (UTC)

Immune???
If Yagura was immune to genjutsu because of fully controlling the biju, then how on earth did madara get to yagura, it just doesn't make sense. I wonder, maybe yagura did not control it as well as people thought. I mean, Killer Bee broke a mangekyo genjutsu, this guy can't combat a NORMAL sharingan. That's pathetic. That means KIller Bee is so much better at controlling his biju, right?? Can someone explain how madaara got to yagura??--'''Wild Wind of the Leaf

We don't know how Madara got around this condition, it could be like with Shisui's that Yagura didn't notice the genjutsu before it was too late. The only reason why they found that Yagura was under a genjutsu was because Ao discovered it with his Byakugan before that they thought that Yagura was just a nasty person. On a second note, Madara is one of the people noted with the ability to control beasts, it could be very well he controlled Yagura through his beast or the other way around. Madara has been around for a long time and most likely picked up a few tricks and became very knowledgeable of many things. After all he was shown with the right set up and conditions, he can extract a biju on his own and then take control of said Biju. Madara is an enigma really and till the manga, databook, or kishi explains how Madara got around this we don't know. Besides EMS maybe able to get around it. Killer Bee was facing a MS jutsu used someone who was inexperienced with it and was said to be weaker than Itachi's. We don't know how much powerful the MS techs become once the user has EMS plus Madara has a wealth of experience.Umishiru (talk) 09:42, December 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Jinchūriki with full control over their bijū are not immune to genjutsu. They can simply combat it extremely easily. They still need to know they are under a genjutsu. —ShounenSuki (talk 14:35, December 27, 2010 (UTC)


 * Besides, who's to say that Yagura's control over the Three-Tails wasn't actually Madara's control over it? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:49, December 27, 2010 (UTC)

it is heavily implied that yagura is not a perfect jinchuriki. danzo thought he was during the kage meeting because it was only after he said it that mei terumi confirmed that yagura was being controlled. killer bee said it, genjutsu won't work on a perfect jinchuriki because the bijuu disrupts the chakra flow of the jinchuriki once under a genjutsu.--Neehaw


 * I don't know why this is being resurrected, but Yagura was the jinchūriki of the Three-tails which was in the wild but he was still alive, while we don't know much of his back-story where it concerns him being controlled, i doubt he was controlled for all his life...--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 11:03, June 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * While it is doubtful that he was controlled all his life, the fact still remains that if he fully controlled the three tails, that would have prevented him from being controlled by genjutsu in the first place like bee was when sasuke tried using his genjutsu on him.--Neehaw


 * That probably only holds true for beasts that inhabit the same body as the host, as it is now, we don't know whether or not Yagura had control over the beast outside his body or if it was ever sealed into him at all.-Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 03:29, June 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * "or if it was ever sealed into him at all" <-- then he shouldn't be called a jinchuriki because "The jinchūriki (人柱力; Literally meaning "Power of Human Sacrifice") are humans that have tailed beasts sealed within them." coming from that, and this is stated in this, http://naruto.wikia.com/index.php?title=Jinch%C5%ABriki&image=Jinch-C5-ABriki-jpg, yagura was a jinchuriki and had the three tails sealed in him.--Neehaw


 * I never said it wasn't though... We simply don't know anything surrounding Yagura as a jinchūriki except that he was considered to be one of the few people to have complete control of his beast. What Kishimoto says in his manga is kinda law friend--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 03:59, June 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * that's why we are having this discussion because of those laws, friend. kishimoto stated that yagura was a perfect jinchuriki through danzo. after that fact, through ao and mei, he also stated that yagura was being controlled by genjutsu. before these two incidents, through b, he said that a genjutsu has little to no effect on a perfect jinchuriki. quite contradicting, right? one of those three laws must supersede the other so that we can come into a more accurate information. out of those three laws, the second and third holds more water because (a) ao and mei are from kiri so they know more about yagura than danzo and (b) b vs. sasuke provided proof that perfect jinchurikis are immune to genjutsu ("According to Killer B, once a jinchūriki has the tailed beast's cooperation and complete control of its chakra, he or she become immune to genjutsu, as the tailed beast can disturb its jinchūriki's chakra flow to break genjutsu.[9]"; http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Tailed_Beast_Control.) therefore, while it is not explicitly stated that yagura is not a perfect jinchuriki, he shouldn't be called one because of those two proofs.--Neehaw


 * The term 'perfect jinchūriki' is being overused...
 * B is practically immune to genjutsu because the Eight-Tails is able to stop genjutsu almost immediately. The Eight-Tails only does this because he and B are on friendly terms. there's nothing indicating that the relationship between Yagura and the Three-Tails was anywhere near as good. That said, if the genjutsu Madara used on Yagura was like Shisui's genjutsu, then the whole immunity thing would be bypassed. To cancel a genjutsu, you have to know you are under one. Shisui's genjutsu was special because it made you think you weren't being manipulated at all. —ShounenSuki (talk 14:19, June 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * no, it's not being overused because it's being used on yagura even though the manga belies it. "there's nothing indicating that the relationship between Yagura and the Three-Tails was anywhere near as good." that's why yagura mustn't be up there with b who can "fully control his bijuu" if you don't want the term "perfect jinchuriki." "That said, if the genjutsu Madara used on Yagura was like Shisui's genjutsu, then the whole immunity thing would be bypassed." we all know so far that madara can't do that now. proof? madara cursing danzo for destroying shisui's eye at the last minute. therefore, yagura being depicted to be able to fully control his bijuu must be removed until there is proof that he can because based on what's revealed so far, he isn't.--Neehaw

No he had the power to control his tailed beast, that was stated in Kage meeting. Under normal circumstances when you are facing genjutsu you usually know when your under it so its easy for Jinchuriki like Bee to dispel it because they are aware of it. Shusui's jutsu bypassed this weakness that the jutsu put the user under genjutsu without even realizing after all it wasn't till a byakugan was used did they found out he was being controlled. I guarantee you that if Shusui used his jutsu on Killer Bee, he would fall prey to it because he wouldn't know that he was under it. Another example, look at the Fourth Hokage and Madara, even though Madara's teleportation was said to be faster, Minato was able to he his form of it to get the upper hand on him. All I am saying is stop taking things so literal. Yes under normal genjutsu, it is doomed to fail do to their obvious nature. But something like Shusui's jutsu which seems to work on more on hypnotic to subtle mental suggestion has a much better chance due to its detectability being incredibly hard outside of doujutsu wielders. In fact looking at how Danzo used it that is what it seems to be subtle mental suggestion, if you want a outrageous over the top example of it then go watch Inception. Otherwise its known tactic within psychology that companies use today.Umishiru (talk) 09:52, June 30, 2011 (UTC)


 * yes, he had the power but the question is, is it full? i could say the same thing to you, stop taking things so literal. i've already stated the reasons above why i'm pointing out that i'm siding with the original poster of this issue that yagura is not a perfect jinchuriki. you guarantee me that b would fall prey to shisui's genjutsu because of its uniqueness? we haven't seen enough proof to back up that claim so far. i can counter that argument by saying that it's b who will fall prey but the bijuu will not. if ao, an outsider, noticed something was wrong to mifune, what more for an independent-minded bijuu that is very much friendly living inside a host? fact is, yagura's control over his bijuu is beneath b's level as what's been shown so far.--Neehaw

Can you show where they say he didn't have full control? Otherwise he does till otherwise said. Ao noticed the jutsu because he has already seen it once with fighting Shusui and dealing with Yagura due to as I said his Byakugan. There is a difference between someone who has had experience with it and someone who doesn't. There is no indication that Killer Bee or his Biju have ever encounter Shusui's jutsu so yes I do think both would fall to it or do you not understand the not aware they are under the genjutsu part. Obviously it must be much sneaker when dealing with the target's chakra flow which is how most people outside of the target themselves realize that a person is under genjutsu. As I said Madara is someone with a wealth of experience, we don't know everything he knows when dealing with Jinchuriki of all skill levels.Umishiru (talk) 10:32, June 30, 2011 (UTC)


 * i didn't say there was a chapter they said yagura didn't have full control. i said as was shown so far, he doesn't have full control. you're banking on danzo's statement, i'm banking on ao-mei and b-vs.-sasuke and a whole lot of other facts.
 * "Ao noticed the jutsu because he has already seen it once with fighting Shusui and dealing with Yagura due to as I said his Byakugan. There is a difference between someone who has had experience with it and someone who doesn't." <-- no. he noticed something was wrong on the kage meeting so he used his byakugan to double-check. that's when he knew that it was shisui's genjutsu. it wasn't said he knew right away that it was shisui's genjutsu before he used his byakugan. this is what i meant when i said "if ao, an outsider, noticed something was wrong to mifune, what more for an independent-minded bijuu that is very much friendly living inside a host?"
 * "There is no indication that Killer Bee or his Biju have ever encounter Shusui's jutsu so yes I do think both would fall to it" <-- right, there is no indication, so it is an opinion up to this point. besides, for what you claim to happen, it must mean that their brains should be connected or that shisui's genjutsu must reach the bijuu inside the host's mind and must affect them both at the same time so that neither one could disrupt each other's chakra for them to escape it. but as was shown so far, even if the host is unconscious, the bijuu can still be awake. therefore, this is one example that their brains are not connected.
 * "or do you not understand the not aware they are under the genjutsu part." <-- or you don't understand when i said it's b who will fall prey to the genjutsu and not the bijuu.--Neehaw

Ok, this section suddenly became very big, I didn't read it all and there a few things I'd like to say. Not everything that is stated in the manga is true until the end. For a long while, we listed the Nine-Tails appearing in Konoha as a natural disaster because Madara had said so. Turns out he lied. About Yagura, he was mentioned as being a jinchūriki with full control over his tailed beast. Is it possible that this control wasn't enough to protect him from the Shisui like genjutsu because of its unique qualities? I think so. Is it possible that Yagura's control over the Three-Tails was actually Madara's control over it, since Yagura was manipulated by Madara presumably for quite a while? I find it highly possible. However, until any of those possibilities are revealed as facts in the manga, there's no point in discussing them. In an unrelated note neehaw, I noticed every single edit made by you was made unsigned, with an IP showing up as the one doing it. If you have an account, sign in to make it, or at least to sign it. If you don't have an account, please make one. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:52, June 30, 2011 (UTC)


 * first, i didn't edit anything. that's why i am taking this first here before editing any because i don't want a revert war subsequently locking this yagura article for editing. if there's any edit in the articles that's made by my ip, it's not me. i'm living in a country who depends on the complexities of one-ip-many-users, so you get the point. second, you are almost getting what i'm saying and it's nice to know that you are one of the few who understands it.
 * "Not everything that is stated in the manga is true until the end. About Yagura, he was mentioned as being a jinchūriki with full control over his tailed beast. Is it possible that this control wasn't enough to protect him from the Shisui like genjutsu because of its unique qualities? I think so. Is it possible that Yagura's control over the Three-Tails was actually Madara's control over it, since Yagura was manipulated by Madara presumably for quite a while? I find it highly possible." <-- right on! we're in line.
 * "However, until any of those possibilities are revealed as facts in the manga, there's no point in discussing them." <-- there is if there are facts that are contradicting in nature so far.
 * "Not everything that is stated in the manga is true until the end." <-- agreed. that's why i think there should be an "although" part when mentioning danzo's statement that yagura was able to fully control his biju.--Neehaw


 * Although you may be right Omnibender, neehaw is making a mistake in his logic.
 * The reason B is practically immune to genjutsu is because he has a bijū that can disturb his chakra. B's bijū will do this independently of B, because it is on friendly terms with him.
 * However, there's no evidence that Yagura was on friendly terms with the Sanbi. If he wasn't, the Sanbi wouldn't be helping Yagura on his own volition. Yagura was said to ahve full control over his bijū, so he could force the Sanbi tob help him. However, this would mean Yagura
 * knew he was under a genjutsu, and
 * had enough freedom to enforce his will on the Sanbi.
 * If either of these prerequisites were unfulfilled, Yagura would be defenceless against the genjutsu, even with absolute, full control over the Sanbi. There is no contradiction in the manga about this. —ShounenSuki (talk 22:06, June 30, 2011 (UTC)


 * you can claim that i have a misake in logic, i can claim that you have a mistake in your understanding.
 * "The reason B is practically immune to genjutsu is because he has a bijū that can disturb his chakra. B's bijū will do this independently of B, because it is on friendly terms with him. However, there's no evidence that Yagura was on friendly terms with the Sanbi. If he wasn't, the Sanbi wouldn't be helping Yagura on his own volition." <-- thank you for the example you gave as it is illustrating what i want to illustrate.
 * "Yagura was said to ahve full control over his bijū, so he could force the Sanbi tob help him." <-- so far, we only saw b and oxtopus as the prime example of fully sync host-biju, and i think there was no instance yet that was shown that b forced oxtopus to help him. all we saw are instances where oxtopus is willing enough to help b. kindly give me a link to refresh me. also, please include the part where it was said that you need to know you are under a genjutsu before you can dispel it. while we are not arguing this issue, i just want to be refreshed regarding this.--Neehaw

How did Yagura die?
how'd he die? User:Naginatatsu
 * If we knew, it would be on the article. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:20, February 12, 2011 (UTC)

yea, the three tails was removed from him, leading t his death, thats all we know

Age
Shouldn't we add the inconsistency of Kishimoto's drawing in the Trivia section? In most pages Yagura appears as a very young boy, at least he has a very small height/stature. Yet in the Chapter 458, page 3, he seems much older, maybe even in his twenties. And it is not only his facial features which has changed, he is almost Bee's height, comparing to the first page of the Chapter 420, his height is almost doubled. Yet again, he was resurrected as a young boy. Of course, it may be not inconsistency and he really died older (just like Sasori resurrected as a human but died like a container) and it will be explained latter, but I think we should somehow mention this age difference.Faust-RSI (talk) 07:26, June 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * 458 doesn't prove he's "older"; it proves he wouldn't fit in the scene if all four characters were depicted with the accurate height. ~SnapperTo 16:38, June 10, 2011 (UTC)


 * That's just your speculation which by the way proves the drawing is inconsistent. The height of other characters is more or less accurate. And his face in 458 seems much older, it's a style of drawing "adults". Also, compare his stature in 458 and 507, page 13. Furthermore, in 515, page 17 he is much smaller than Fuu, which is again inconsistent both with 458 and 507.Faust-RSI (talk) 20:59, June 10, 2011 (UTC)