Talk:Nature Transformation

Nature Manipulation
There is certain, mistake in this article. The article states that shinobi have only one nature affinity and additional elements are just learned by time. That’s not right, if elements can simply be learned, then idea of elemental affinities looses sense. As far as I remember it was stated that, element can’t be learned with out affinity. I have some proof (not very solid but still): Good example is Yamato, to use wood, his chakra must have both water & earth. That disapproves the fact that chakra has only one elemental affinity. Also sharingan can’t copy technique to which don’t have capability such as: bloodline limit etc. Though powerful taijutsu skills can be copied, but with lesser power and strain on the body (as it was shown by Sasuke during his fight Yoroi), but elements were never copied. Also Kakashi noted that he has more than one element and it was also explained that the element can’t be used if the user doesn’t has the specific chakra nature, be it main or secondary.

''

Basically Yin-Yang & Sora are the same, but the Yin-Yang was mentioned in different context (or so I think), the difference is that Yin-Yang is also philosophical symbol, it represents the holiness of opposites and as far as I remember it was not mentioned in genjutsu context and it has nothing to do with it (well that’s my opinion). Can the Yin-Yang thing be taken out of the “Pain” article it’s speculation not a confirmed fact.

Paths 15:58, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, you're the one making a mistake ^^ Let me explain.
 * A shinobi's affinity is the element their chakra naturally leans to. This affinity is revealed using the chakra paper. Every shinobi has only one affinity. Kakashi's affinity is lightning, Naruto's affinity is wind. This affinity gives them a head start in learning that element. Other elements can be learned, by with considerably more difficulty. Learning all five at a high level would be impossible.
 * A person with the Sharingan can copy elemental techniques, but cannot use them without knowing how to transform their chakra into that element.
 * We don't know if it works any differently for people with elemental Kekkei Genkai. It could be they have two affinities. It could be their affinity is for their Kekkei Genkai element. It could also be they simply have one affinity for a normal element like all other people. The concept of Yin-Yang and the element Void have little to nothing to do with each other.
 * Yin-Yang in Naruto is a different kind of nature transformation than elemental nature transformation. We don't know how it works, though, but it was heavily hinted that it had something to do with non-elemental techiques like Kagemane, Baika, Genjutsu, and medical ninjutsu.
 * It's definitely the sixth form of nature transformation Jiraiya spoke about, although it wasn't stated directly. It's the only form of nature transformation mentioned, besides the five elemental forms. --ShounenSuki 16:20, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * About the elements themselves. The Japanese element Void is equivalent to the Naruto element lightning. Both represent pure energy. Yin-Yang and

I should diagree. If elements can be learned than the affinity idea looses sense. And besides I a different discussin you had a different opinion similar to mine. Paths 16:34, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

P.S. read this article on japanese elements it's quite interesting


 * How does the idea of affinities loose sense? It was introduced to explain why Naruto was going to learn Wind.
 * Also, in what discussion did I have an opinion similar to yours? --ShounenSuki 16:48, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

''

Paths 16:56, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but where exactly am I expressing the same opinion as you in that discussion? --ShounenSuki 19:10, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

''

Also, lightning can't be pure energy. Pure energy means that it doesn't has any traits or quolities, And seriously please read wikipedias article on japanese elements, that is my sourse.Paths 05:35, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia's article on Japanese elements cannot be used as a source. While the ideas may be derived from that information there is no basis to say that every last fact will apply directly to nature transformations in naruto. They are two unrelated topics. Lightning as pure energy also has nothing to do with the Lightning affinity, they are two different topics as well. As it looks, you're just continuing one of the common debates caused by people screwing with the facts. this post makes a good explanation. Ignore the quote, the person who originally posted the thread completely ignored facts like the paper test when he created his post. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Nov 30, 2008 @ 06:30 (UTC)

No, I ment that, this is my source for speculation section. The elements can't be learned, I re-read the manga few times and I don't know there you got the idea from. In anime, Yamato explained to Naruto, that shinobi tend to use their main elements because, in some cases the secondary elements are weak, and that a person can't use an element if he/she doesn't has ah affinity (be it main or secondary)Paths 08:20, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * How did I voice the same opinion as you in that quote Paths? I said exactly what I said at the start of this discussion. A shinobi only has one affinity, but can learn to use multiple elements. I think you're misintepreting my words. --ShounenSuki 21:21, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Speculation sections are NOT for you to voice your own speculations. And talkpages are not places to discuss speculations. A speculation section is only there to list notable speculation, ie: common, speculation. Any speculation derived from discussions on a talkpage is original, and therefore not common or notable. This discussion is actually getting rather pointlessly bloated, so I'm trimming it down. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Nov 30, 2008 @ 23:23 (UTC)

I thought it over so I'll leave this comment, the difference is I'm saying that secondary elements are natural, but your opinion is that secondary elements are learned. But you specify that you mean learning, transforming the element. It does make sence though it's a little vague, can you verify that you mean learning how to transform chakra to element, it give a feeling that the of learning teqnique. But still adding Yin-Yang to Pain as an element is a speculation, can it be taken out? Thank you for the attention.Paths 12:28, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * All elements are learned. Having an affinity doesn't mean you can naturally use that element. You still need to train for it. An affinity only makes it easier to learn.
 * Also, the article says nothing about Yin-Yang being an element and it being a form of nature transformation is fact. It was literally stated in the manga. --ShounenSuki 12:34, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I still think it another way, but that's not the point. I knPaths 13:43, 1 December 2008 (UTC)ow that it was just metioned in manga but look in the Pain & Sage of Six Paths articles it is literaly stated; "Sixth form of Nature Transformation, likely Yin-Yang" Paths 13:43, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That's the way it is, isn't it? Jiraiya says Pain can all six forms of chakra nature manipulation (meaning there are only six, not more, not less). Six forms have been mentioned in the manga: the five elements and Yin-Yang. So it's all but literally stated that the sixth form of nature manipulation Pain can use is Yin-Yang. In my opinion, the "likely" can actually be removed, but since it hasn't been literally stated yet, it should stay in. --ShounenSuki 13:52, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Yin-Yang isn't stated to be an element, and it's said that Pain can use all six ELEMENTS. Stop making shit up... 207.80.142.5 (talk) 13:21, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

Please categorize these jutsus
Dimensional (Kakashi's); Summoning (is this the same dimensional, or a different dimensional?)

RandomVisitor1

Kakashi's Mangekyo jutsu is the only one within that dimensional category, there's no point in categorizing a single jutsu, and it's not even a category. As for Summons, there is only one actual Summoning jutsu, I think we already categorize summons themselves. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Dec 24, 2008 @ 04:29 (UTC)

Wouldn't Kamui, Hiraishin no Jutsu, Kuchiyose no Jutsu, and Madara's teleport/intangibility technique all fall under the category of Space-Time Ninjutsu?Rayfire (talk) 17:08, September 13, 2009 (UTC)

Crystal
In the latest episode of the anime (ep 91), Kakashi recognized the Crystal jutsu as a earth jutsu. I would say Crystal works in the same way as Deidaras mud. Jacce 14:38, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

A crystal is a rock, so I could have told ya that. So this means that Crystal Release is a sub group of Earth Release then.--TheUltimate3 14:43, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I scanned through the episode, but all I could find was Team Kurenai and Kakashi encountering Guren's Crystal Release: Crystal Pentagonal Prison and Kiba wondering if it was possibly an Earth Release technique. After that, Kakashi seemed to recognise the technique, but he didn't say it was Earth Release. The way he reacted made it seem far more unique than that. --ShounenSuki 16:03, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

if you look up naruto element combinations, you can find a webpage that explains that crystal (subbed as diamond in the text on the forum) is a elemental mixture of water and earth. Mike 19:35, 4 March 2009

I won't even bother spelling out the mistake. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:40, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

"Guren has a unique ability allowing her to use Crystal Release (晶遁, Shōton) ninjutsu. Although not confirmed, this is likely also an advanced element." Why isn't it confirmed, doesn't the "ton" suffix denote an element? Or does the sentence mean that it merely isn't confirmed as a combo element? If that's the case, this should be reworded, methinks. Inul (talk) 15:54, 29 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The section that that appears in is about combo elements, so obviously it's the latter. ~SnapperTo 02:39, 29 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Fair enough, but I still think "advanced element" should be changed to "combination element" for better clarification, at least in that sentence. Guren's Shouton is in itself a nature release outside of the basic five. Inul (talk) 15:54, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

To Mike, how can Crystal Style be a combo of Earth n Water Style if there already is a combo of them: Wood Style--Moiz1224 (talk) 01:10, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps Crystal is a different mixture of Earth and Water compared to Wood. Plus, Wood requires chakra to be converted into a life source for the Wood Release, in order to make the trees grow.

Crystal Release
"No two elements used simultaneously will create the Crystal Release ninjutsu because the crystals are summoned from the user's surroundings."

What does this mean? Has it been stated in the anime that Crystal Release isn't the combination of two basic elements? Because, if that's the case, it shouldn't be considered an advanced element. --ShounenSuki 22:19, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Kabuto said something like "Guren doesn't need to carry weapons to be dangerous, she can summon crystals from anywhere, that's the power of the Shoton that made her a candidate for Orochimaru-sama's vessel". Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:46, 2 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't that be the same as saying the First Hokage could "summon trees from anywhere"? It doesn't imply she doesn't mix two basic elements into a new advanced element. --ShounenSuki 22:58, 2 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Simply, I think that we should make a special space for just crystal release, because it is in section where it says "advanced natures", as it is not, as pointed out in an episode...--NejiByakugan360 00:36, 19 February 2009 (UTC)


 * In what episode was that pointed out? --ShounenSuki (talk 00:47, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Well according to the episodes, the Crystal Release pretty much functions by crystallizing any matter. It definitely effects Water, Wind, and Earth, but can't crystallize energy like fire, raw chakra, and lightning. But it seems to work perfectly fine with any matter however, it isn't required for any components to be present. So it seems to be completely unique, though my first guess was an advanced Doton, or Doton-Suiton combo. Since it effects multiple elements it could be a Yin or Yang manipulation. Rayfire (talk) 16:46, September 13, 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't say it has anything to do with Suiton. Doton with Yin Yang in the mix I get, but not the Suiton. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:23, September 13, 2009 (UTC)

Exterior type?
What on earth is this? Was it explained in the anime? If so, which episode? --ShounenSuki (talk 13:12, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Ahaha, I'm so sorry, i didn't mean "Exterior", as it makes little sense. I meant Additional. Sorry for the inconvenience.--NejiByakugan360 23:34, 27 March 2009 (UTC)


 * All right, what's the difference between Crystal release and the advanced natures? Why is Crystal an additional nature and not an advanced nature? --ShounenSuki (talk 23:42, 27 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Ahahaha, yes, well, it is not confirmed as an advanced elemen, so i just added a section where it says "additional", in which natures that do not have a mixture of elements would be put in this section. So, since crystal isn't confirmed as an element that is combined by two different element, it does not deserve to be in the "advanced" section. Please respond on my discussion page, if needed. --NejiByakugan360 23:56, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Merge
What is the current reason behind have so many pages for the Elemental Releases? I believe that all of these pages, (Fire Release, Water Release, Earth Release, Lightning Release, Wind Release, Ice Release, Crystal Release, Lava Release and Wood Release) should be merged with this one and their information brought here to one centeral location. Having so many is only a waste of space and time for viewers.  ¥ S uper N ovice ↔ T alk 2 M e  ¥ 03:34, 3 April 2009 (UTC)


 * ... Releases are Jutsu types, Nature Transformation is about chakra natures. Merging them would also interfere with our ability to drilldown jutsu by nature type. We could use tranclusions to include those other articles in one page, however I don't like the idea of that place being this article. This article is of a great size right now, including jutsu types here is going to increase the page to a size where it starts to become unwieldy. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 3, 2009 @ 04:06 (UTC)

jinchuriki nature types
if these were actually nature types, then i'm guessing steam would be fire and water, while bubble would be a different type of water and wind Vik0z0z (talk) 16:11, 3 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes I completely agree with those choices that make perfect sense, but the thing is that there is no confirmed evidence that those natures are advanced types with use of those main natures. The same goes for Guren's Crystal Release.--NejiByakugan360 - Please respond on my Talk Page! 16:16, 3 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I can see steam being fire and water, but water and wind is already ice. But I can see them both being water with some sort of Yin Yang manipulation, same with Guren's crystal, being earth and a Yin Yang manipulation. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:33, 3 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I can see exactly where your getting at, but there is no mention of combining Yin Yang and other natures in the firt place. Even so, it is still not confirmed.--NejiByakugan360 - Please respond on my Talk Page! 02:12, 4 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, we know that it has to do with non-elemental ninjutsu, but that doesn't mean it can't affect elemental ninjutsu too. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:52, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

if there was a bubble release, would it be utaton(泡遁) literally meaning bubble/foam releaseVik0z0z (talk) 21:42, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

and steam release would be jōton(蒸遁) literally meaning steaming release Vik0z0z (talk) 21:51, 12 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Possibly, but I don't see how this is relevant to the wiki. This isn't a forum. --ShounenSuki (talk 21:54, 12 July 2009 (UTC)


 * just contributing, so that if those natures were confirmed, we know what to put on the article Vik0z0z (talk) 21:58, 12 July 2009 (UTC)


 * If those natures were confirmed, the names of their releases would most likely be given as well. If not, any names would be speculation and shouldn't be used. --ShounenSuki (talk 22:06, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

In Utakata's page on this wiki, it is mentioned that he uses the Bubble Technique from the Bubble Line. Unless the Six Tails was passed down through his family, there wouldn't be a whole line that has the technique. I think the Bubble technique is a Hiden, a family art and not related to the Biju.Rayfire (talk) 16:50, September 13, 2009 (UTC)

Curiosity
You know, if a couple items of the speculation section are correct, Earth natured chakra would the first basic nature to have known combinations with the four other basic natures. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:23, 9 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Seems like water beat earth to it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:52, October 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * Yeah, kinda odd that we went from 4 advanced nature types to 8 in like 3 weeks, lol--SkyFlicker (talk) 20:11, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

Chakra Paper
Does anybody know the reaction the strips of chakra paper do depending on the affinity of the user?

if anyone knows i think it will be a good thing to add to this page.--Hokage0611 (talk) 17:10, 23 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It's--

-Water=dampens -Fire=turns to ash -Lightning=crumples -Earth=crumbles to dirt -Wind=cuts it in two {{Kyouken

Thanks, i will add it to the page.--Hokage0611 (talk) 19:30, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Clarification
Assumption = Confimed = --

Lava Release has been always said as -the host of the four tails uses yoton- but never directly says that the yoton comes directly from the yonbi, it could just be mentioning a jinchuriki with an ability or kekkei genkai outside its tailed beast Until is confirmed that the yoton doesnt come from the monkey it should be mentioned that its used by the jinchuriki not the bijuu. (A good moment could come soon since its our first shot into iwagakure ninja, they could show up with yoton too and finally show it, so its not just an element simply heard proving it could also be a kekkei genkai)

Sand Release or the ability to manipulate sand is confirmed that it comes from ichibi, but he is now gone so it could have meant that it is gone. But -MK as he commented since ichibi was implatnted as his body was still forming inside his mother gaara's DNA merged with the ichibis so now the sand release and eye rings will retain in his own DNA- (since kekkei genkai are DNA transfered techniques now stuck in gaara this could mark the begining of the sand release kekkei genkai) -its been confirmed as a lot of thought that sand release is a mixture of 2 elemnts it is revealed that one element is futon but its not certain the other one-

-Crystal Release it is also a mixture of 2 elemnts- in the anime has been said by kakashi that it had doton properties (so it could be safe to assume that one of those elements is doton or that kakashi was wrong)-Even orochimaru admits is an advance nature or elementally-recomposed nature type which is used with a kekkei genkai-. the only reason why it is thought that there are other ways to create, is for the unconfirmed controversy of the four tails and it lava release.

(The Gobi and Rokubi jinchuriki could be A kekkei genkai or A form of attack of the biju that influnces the jinchuriki But until its confirmed it should remain in mere specualtion)


 * Artbook which revealed Yonbi as a monkey said Yonbi's power was lava, it definitely comes from him. About sand, it was never said it's a mixture, and we have no confirmation that the reason Gaara still has sand is because his DNA was changed during his gestation, the only thing that suggests that sand is a mixture is because Shukaku could also use Futon techniques along with sand techniques. You got it completely wrong about crystal. Kiba wondered if it could be some sort of Doton technique, Kakashi only seemed to recognize it, he never said it was Doton plus anything else. Orochimaru did say it was an elemental recomposition, but nothing else was clarified. Gobi and Rokubi I agree with, nothing was ever said about their natures, but it doesn't mean it has to be a bijuu ability or a kekkei genkai. It could be something like Hiden Jutsu, such as Aburame's bug techniques. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:18, 12 August 2009 (UTC)


 * MK interview revealed that sand and crystal are indeed combination of 2 element also known as advance types. the artbook stated the four tails jinchuuriki power is lava. Mk's interview about the reappearance of the sand siblings, he in fact never mentioned that it will be called sand release, but yes that it will become an hereditary trait of gaara or as you want to put it a kekkei genkai


 * Link for interview, Shounensuki confirming it or it didn't happen. Sounds fishy to me since Crystal is a filler only nature. And the only thing I ever read in a MK interview was confirmation that Gaara retained Shukaku's sand abilities, not that it was a kekkei genkai. About the Lava Release, the databook also said something among the lines of "by borrowing the Four-Tails power, Roshi is able to use Lava Release". Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:45, 12 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Omnibender already cleared up most points, but I'd like to say two things:
 * Show us that interview please, or at least tell us where to find it;
 * The very first time Lava Release was mentioned, in chapter 353, page 3, Kisame says this: . The very first mention of Lava Release already states that it belongs to the Four-Tails and not to Rōshi. Furthermore, the article on Rōshi in the third databook says: . While explaining the design of the Four-Tails, the second artbooks says this: . It is beyond clear that the Lava Release stems from the Four-Tails.
 * --ShounenSuki (talk 22:38, 12 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Sand manipulation was confirmed that it will be passed down genetically its kids if he someday has as stated by MK. And is safe to confirm that an ability passed down by generations gentically is a kekkei genkai.


 * Crystal was in a comment and poll in which MK explained the existent nature types and made a poll to decide which new natures to create. Spoiler the winner was tetsuton


 * Ill leave lava release in peace since I recognize the odds are 50 50 and no way in sure to prove any side. But go look the interview about sand and crystal. there it explains everything


 * Give us a link and we will, I searched that tetsuton you mentioned, and the only things I found were speculation threads in foruns saying it'd be Fire and Earth chakra, and a prediction of chapter 462, no interviews. Never saw anything about Gaara passing down sand manipulation either, and just so you know, not all techniques passed down are kekkei genkai. There are clan specific jutsu that simply is taught only to clan members, not necessarily kekkei genkai. And give it up on the Lava issue already, it's been made beyond crystal clear that it stems from the Tailed Beast. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:35, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

The mizukage having the yoton did surprise me, i was told the tsuchi would have but i told you that in the kage summit it would be revealed it would be revealed that the lava release was an actual kekkei genkai. Look I know its very hard to believe but im indeed related to one of the plot producers. so i kinda know a few details that are going to be added to the story
 * When did you tell us that, exactly? Also, who is this "plot producer" you are related to? As far as I know, there is only one: Kishimoto-sensei himself. --ShounenSuki (talk 21:45, September 29, 2009 (UTC)


 * Refer to Talk:Lava Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:44, September 29, 2009 (UTC)


 * Look its this way Masashi is the main plot producer, but the story line is mostly changed thru the manga, so thats were the plot producers kick in. like a vicepresidents int the naruto thing. at the other comment it was here but i think it got deleated, but it could still be between the stack of word inthis discssion and in the names for the crystal style but the admin says that they want public info about it i got stucked. really i know this is hard to believe


 * At least give us a name or an actual job title. 'Plot producer' means nothing. There is only one plot producer and that's Kishimoto-sensei. He has assistants, editors, and plenty of other people to deal with, but in the end he himself is the only one in charge of the actual plot.
 * Give us some evidence, any evidence. --ShounenSuki (talk 14:45, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

Deidara's Bloodline
Deidara's clay is a combination of Earth and Water and he must give it fire Chakra to give it gunpowder.


 * Deidara doesn't have a bloodline. His Exploding Clay techniques are Earth natured, nothing else. --ShounenSuki (talk 17:55, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Sound
Hey, random question but, how do the sound techniques that Dosu, Zaku, and Kin used fit in? Are they just techniques like Shadow Clones, or do they have any relation to Nature Transformation?
 * They were never implied to be a nature transformation, and they probably aren't, since they're not elemental ninjutsu. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:54, 30 August 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't think its 'out of the question' that sound could end up being an advanced nature type, i.e. - lightning energizes air to create sound waves. However, the sound ninja use tools to create the sounds, not chakra.  A ninja with sound release jutsu, using hand signs and advanced nature transformation to generate loud sound waves from nothing, would be very different than the sound ninja using weird contraptions to do it.  I'd actually like it very much if one of the advanced nature types ended up being sound.  So many of the nature types are just so directly offensive in nature, would be nice to have one that could possibly have more of a supplementary/utility effect to it


 * Advanced natures come from kekkei genkai. The three genin were never implied to have a kekkei genkai, and sound was never implied to be a kekkei genkai. Most elemental techniques have a -ton name, none of the sound techniques worked like that. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:20, September 26, 2009 (UTC)


 * I realise that, but they also all used tools to create the sound. I was simply saying that a ninja with a kekkai genkai of sound release is possible in the future and that I would like if it happens, and noting that their sound techniques are all based off of tools creating sound and not from chakra creating sound.--SkyFlicker (talk) 13:13, September 28, 2009 (UTC)

Storm
Are we sure we want to put it down as a confirmed nature, even if we don't know for certain that it is and its basic elements? Also, what do we plan on doing with Enton? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:24, September 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * There is speculation and there is logical conclusions. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Storm Release is a combination of Water and Lightning Releases. Not only does it make sense (storm = lightning + rain/water), the Storm Release actually resembles liquid streams of lightning. Not to mention the fact that Darui has shown Lightning and Water Release techniques before and has the kanji for water and lightning tattooed on his arms. There is only one possible solution: Storm Release is an advanced element made up of Lightning and Water.
 * As for Blaze Release...... That's a difficult one. My instinct tells me it's a more advanced version of Fire Release. We should list it among the other advanced elements, though. Perhaps with a mention that it's not known what it's second basic element is, if it has one at all. --ShounenSuki (talk 19:44, September 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * What do you think of my theory over at Talk:Blaze Release? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:30, September 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * Never noticed the thing about Darui having those two kanji tattooed on his arms; I'm convinced. Suigetsu Namikaze ( T | C )

Enton
This should not be listed as being when Fire Style is mixed with Shape Manipulation. Does the shape change when its used the first time? Yes. However, Naruto uses wind style and shape manipulation, and it is not called an advanced nature type with its own name. Also, just because the jutsu has a shape to it, dosn't mean it uses actual 'shape manipulation', otherwise, water dragon bullet and earth dragon bullet would both be considered to use shape manipulation, and then both of those would also be their own special advanced nature type. If you think about it, all jutsu used in the manga and anime have shapes to them, yet they arnt said as using 'shape manipulation', and they certainly arn't all their own advanced nature types because of them. Also, all of the advanced nature types so far, that are 100% confirmed, are by 2 of the 5 nature types being combined to outright form a new nature type... no 'double of the same nature'... no 'yin and yang'... no nature combined with shape... nothing, just straight up 2 different natures being combined to form a new one, so i don't know why its even speculated that enton would possibly be any of those cases. Enton, if an advanced nature type, is outright 2 different nature types combined together, we just dont know which ones. Also, all of Itachi's ametsaru attacks are probably enton abilities, but since he outright just released the fire with no actual jutsu to it, it probably just wasn't called 'enton'. And lastly, the author likely got a lot of fan response about itachi's amatsaru, and after giving it to sasuke, is now retro-writing it to be an advanced nature type, to give it more depth for the readers.

This guy put the last word in my opinion!

more then one advance element
could some one add that in the latest chapter it is shown that a person can have more then one advance element at a time Fawcettp (talk) 11:08, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Advanced Nature Ranks?
Are advanced nature type jutsu necessarilly stronger than basic nature type jutsu?--SkyFlicker (talk) 12:28, October 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * No, example: Wood Release (Water+Earth) is definitely weaker than Fire ReleaseGeohound (talk) 03:55, October 5, 2009 (UTC)


 * Do you have proof of that? --ShounenSuki (talk 06:50, October 5, 2009 (UTC)


 * I meant... yeah they are a different, new nature, but does that mean they are more powerful just automatically? having the strengths of the two individual elements, also means you have the weaknesses of both. Are they seen as really strong because they are different and unusual and people don't know how to counter them well? Or are they simply 'stronger in every way than regular elements'?--SkyFlicker (talk) 21:59, October 5, 2009 (UTC)

Why isn't Bone Mentioned in this list? When, Crystal, a filler recombined technique is --Flaremmm (talk) 00:13, October 7, 2009 (UTC)

Not all Kekkei Genkai abilities are advanced nature transformations. In the case of kimmimaro, he isn't doing a nature transformation at all, he's just manipulating his own bones.--SkyFlicker (talk) 00:23, October 7, 2009 (UTC)

Crystal = Earth/Lightning
Crystal is Earth/Lightning, as it is the only possible combination of earth and another element that is not already used for another advanced nature type. Also, the arrow of light tech does make it seem like an "energized earth" type. Updating page accordingly--SkyFlicker (talk) 16:18, October 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * Or it could Be, "Filler" element. don't just update without response... Simant (talk) 16:20, October 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * Filler element?--SkyFlicker (talk) 16:42, October 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes filler element, as in the fillers don't have to follow the rules set by the manga writers of their manga universe. Simant (talk) 16:47, October 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * I was under the impression that Crystal Element is supported by the author now though? Is this wrong?--SkyFlicker (talk) 20:03, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

I just want to know that if it is earth and lightning, tell me how-Bleach boy
 * well, earth/water would make the most sense, since thats how crystals are actually formed, but thats taken by wood release. like i said though, the crystal release techs all seem like they are 'energized rocks', and at least one release does give her an attack that seems very much like several of the lightning release attacks, particularly kakuza's.  so i could easily see crystal releases explanation being 'when lightning energizes earth'--SkyFlicker (talk) 20:18, October 2, 2009 (UTC)
 * The closest thing about earth plus lightning I can see becoming crystal is those things that happen when lightning strikes sand, forming these glass like things, some people call it petrified lightning. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:01, October 2, 2009 (UTC)

Weaknesses and Strengths
Does anyone besides me think that advanced types have weaknesses and strengths.? i looked through all of the nature types using the diagram in the article. obviously, it is clockwise, but as I was making it, I noticed that they have two weakesses and strength, so a key to the diagrams

for nature types that are composed of elements not next to each other:(this goes clockwise) strengths: #'s 1,2,3,6 weaknesses: #'s 4,5,7,8,9 neutral:10(itself) for nature types that are composed of elements next to each other:(this goes clockwise too) strengths: #'s 1,2,4,5 weaknesses: #'s 7,9 neutral: #'s 3,8,10



But, this only shows the weakness and strengths of an advanced nature if it had any, so does anyone agree that they can and similar rules as the basic nature apply? Vik0z0z (talk) 23:19, October 8, 2009 (UTC)

Enton Element
With the Blaze element didn't it pretty much confirm that advance chakra natures can be made through shape manipulation cause thats what enton pretty much is, Ameratsu + shape manipulation. I think this should be noted either in the article or the trivia section concerning enton.This would mean not all advanced chakra natures are a fusion of two elements and some of advanced forms of singular elements rather than a fusion. This could also explain some other jutsu styles such as sand and the 6-tailed hosts bubble jutsu. I know it could be tool based or hidden jutsu but it could require shape manipulation on the users part maybe bubble like blaze is an advanced form of water achieved through shape manipulation and in bubbles case with some tools. Perhaps sand is just wind or earth chakra with shpae manipulation. If Dust release is confirmed to be Wind + Earth, this might be the case. All I am saying is that we should acknowledge based on enton that not all advanced chakra natures are achieved through two or more elements fusing and some are made through shape manipulation of a existing element or jutsu. FYI I know that Gaara got the sand element through his tailed beast but Gaara no longer has his beast and still uses sand meaning he had to find another way to use sand.Saimaroimaru (talk) 19:28, October 11, 2009 (UTC)
 * That Blaze Release is something special seems rather obvious, but to say it's shape manipulation seems off... Kakashi didn't create a new element by adding shape manipulation to his Lightning Release, nor did Naruto create a new element by doing the same to his Wind Release. --ShounenSuki (talk 19:32, October 11, 2009 (UTC)


 * Very true but Sasuke clearly added shape manipulation to ameratsu to create what element he made. All I am saying is adding shape manipulation to certain techs may yield advance chakra natures as we saw with enton. It Ameratsu +Shape manipulation.Saimaroimaru (talk) 19:38, October 11, 2009 (UTC)


 * Or he used Blaze Release to add shape manipulation to Amaterasu. --ShounenSuki (talk 20:06, October 11, 2009 (UTC)


 * That doesn't make sense at all. It most likely the other waya round. He hadded shape manipulation to Ameratsu to make blaze release.Saimaroimaru (talk) 22:17, October 11, 2009 (UTC)


 * Um, i don't think its any of these cases. Almost all jutsu uses at least some bit ofshape manipulation.  Blaze Release is two different elements combined.  This has held true for all other advanced nature types, and i really dont think the author pulled out something really weird using some other new formula, when all the combination types havnt even been seen yet.  Blaze is cleary 2 elements recombined.  Him using shape manipulation on ameterasu does not mean "blaze is ameterasu with shape manip".  It just means that like almost every other jutsu out there, it has a bit of shape manipulation to it.   I think the real answer is "blaze/ameterasu is the same thing, it is made of 2 different elements, and the author just recently decided to make it this way, and is trying their best to retrofit something so big into the storyline".  Its not like the author has this extremely huge and complex story completely and utterly planned in its entirety.  Just came up with ameterasu, came up with advanced elements, saw people really liked both, gave people more of both, and has now decided to turn ameterasu into an advanced element, and is doing the best he can to make it fit with what he has already written.--SkyFlicker (talk) 22:35, October 11, 2009 (UTC)

Then this articles explanation of Enton is misleading as it will lead people to think you can make advance natures by adding nature manipulation to certain jutsu. Maybe you can mention that its a combination of Fire and an unknown element plus shape manipulation or just cut out the shape manipulation all together.Saimaroimaru (talk) 22:43, October 11, 2009 (UTC)


 * You're right, it is misleading. All speculation aside, we have no idea what's going on with Blaze Release. We cannot even be sure it's a combination of two basic elements, since it's used to manipulate Amaterasu, which was specifically called a Fire Release. I'm going to remove all speculation surrounding Blaze Release from the article. --ShounenSuki (talk 22:54, October 11, 2009 (UTC)


 * Then we should do the same to Enton's page.http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Blaze_ReleaseSaimaroimaru (talk) 23:01, October 11, 2009 (UTC)
 * Ehm... there's no speculation on that page... It could be cleaned up a bit, though. --ShounenSuki (talk 23:04, October 11, 2009 (UTC)

Lightning icon colour
I was updating the icons I made for the elements and a question came to mind; should I change the colour of the lightning icon from purple to yellow? --ShounenSuki (talk 17:08, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Now that you mention, there is a lack of yellow, but I'd wait until a few more people voiced their opinions. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:14, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think a yellow-gold lightning icon would look really good and tie in more to the other color icons (red fire, blue water, brown earth, yellow lightning), but would you also change the wind icon to a lighter white shade too? --Dragon Hacker (talk) 17:40, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * P.S. I liked the original star shaped advanced nature chart (above) so much better than the choppy square chart which it was changed to. It was so much easier to read the combinations of advanced natures in the star chart and it tied in with the circular chart we already had; plus it showed the MOST LIKELY advanced nature combinations which were not confirmed yet to fill in the chart, all it needed was for the arrows to be cleaned up and more curved to match with the circular chart--Dragon Hacker (talk) 17:40, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * That one was removed because it wasn't as good quality as the svg icons. The table is something I tried so we'd have some image showing what produces what when mixed, my original idea was to make something like the star chart. I left a message in the edit summary saying it needs tweaking to better fit in the page, my coding skills are rather limited. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:45, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * ShounenSuki, I love your icons, they are the coolest! I actually go to your user page and look at your icons quite a bit. Maybe you should make the new lightning icon a dandelion-yellow. I also think that the dust nature should change colour, because the colour is a little close to the earth nature's icon. Otherwise, i love them all!--NejiByakugan360 17:51, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure changing the color for Dust would help, it's different enough from Earth. Earth is a chocolate brown, Dust is closer to beige, coffee tone. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:57, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry! I wasn't trying to bash your chart, but I was just trying to state my preference. But ya, I do think that the star chart flows more with the theme. Also as another note (sorry, lol, can't help myself) we have so many red advanced nature icons (Fire, Lava, Blaze, anything fire related, Boil) should we change some to other colors too, like Lava being orange'ier or Boil being purple'ier? I'll try to stop now... --Dragon Hacker (talk) 18:02, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, there was one thing in the star chart that I liked: because of the circular form in which the basic elements were layed out, there were no repetitions of advanced elements. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:09, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Here, I couldn't resist myself so I made some of these changes to the images, here they are:


 * Why would you make Boil Release purple?


 * Any way, I feel the colours are fine as they are right now, so I'm not really planning on changing them unless there's a strong call for change from the community. I only asked about Lightning Release because the colour image in chapter 457 gave the lightning behind the Raikage a yellow colour. For the rest, I believe the colours fir the natures perfectly fine and I feel they are clear and distinct enough to serve their purpose. I like them as they are. --ShounenSuki (talk 20:18, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, I was just changing the colors slightly based what I heard on this page and others about peoples preferences. Oh, and I changed the Boil to purple because I felt there were many red natures. I was just seeing what people thought about the icons, so no problem. --Dragon Hacker (talk) 20:40, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I like those new icons. I think you should change the lightning and such to them.

Do we even NEED the Advanced Nature chart?
I mean seriously. The ShounenSuki created one of the thing we saw in the series I get, but do we need the advanced one? Cause first that random chart looks kinda funky, then we have no real proof if any of that holds up beyond assuming the advanced nature shares the same weaknesses/strengths as their originals.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 17:58, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * If you're talking about the one I made, it's not supposed to show who's stronger than who, but which element a specific blend will produce. Wanna know what Water and Fire make? See where the line and column meet and you have Boil. That's what I wanted to put in the page. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:02, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm talking about in general. It looks like that section is getting overly confusing for no reason. I mean, do we honestly need a picture diagram pointing that out, when its already mentioned clearly in it's bullet point and article?TheUltimate3 (talk) 18:04, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * We have one for the relationships between basic elements, I think a more visual approach could be helpful. The main issue is to find a way to make a less intrusive explanation. If the star chart could be made into a svg image, and have the speculative portions of it removed, it would be great. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:09, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the reason we should make an advanced nature chart using the same method as the basic natures chart is quite simple, to replace the basic nature chart since the advance nature chart will have the basic included in it. Simant (talk) 19:07, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

Idea!
Why cant we just do something like this, instead of having a huge table? The Ice (氷, Kōri) nature, used by Haku, is created by simultaneously combining the Water and Wind natures. This nature allows for the use of Ice Release (氷遁, Hyōton) ninjutsu. Ice Release has been shown as being strong against Fire Release. Yukigakure-nin and Renga were also able to use Ice Release techniques without the kekkei genkai, by drawing on already-existing ice and cold. +=
 * I don't oppose that idea. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:04, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * eh... kinda dislike both ideas. I mean the entire point of the advanced nature chart was to replace the basic nature chart image. Simant (talk) 23:07, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

That looks good, i think the original advance nature chart should be put up now (the star one) in won't be confusing because of the equations to clear things up. That way relationships can be viewed and it may contribute to a strength/weakness system that could occur later on --Flaremmm (talk) 02:10, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * For one I find it amazing how users pop out of nowhere and comment just to say they agree with another edit. But whatever. first of all, the images are included wrong on the page. secondly, what is the point of writing something like "The letter A Plus the letter B equals AB" and then writing next to it, "A+B=AB". Seems kinda redundant to me. Simant (talk) 02:15, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know what you're talking but AB = A X B not A + B. And I didn't just say I liked the edit, if you bothered to read my first post and FYI i have been watching this page for ages and this is the first time i am satisfied with the implemented system.--Flaremmm (talk) 02:19, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not referring to math. I am referring to ObjectA + ObjectB = NewObjectAB. And thanks for saying how bad a job we were doing before if this is the first time you were satisfied. Simant (talk) 02:53, October 17, 2009 (UTC)

I just didn't like the new chart and the old one was hard to make out--Flaremmm (talk) 03:48, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the equation solution currently in the article adds absolutely nothing. At least the table allowed people to quickly look up what advanced elements used, for instance, Earth Release. --ShounenSuki (talk 12:18, October 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * I still don't see why we don't assume our readers can read and just not have any of this >.> it's been going on for like 2 weeks and so far the page just went from ok, to bad, to worse, to lolbad.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 12:38, October 17, 2009 (UTC)