Talk:Mangekyō Sharingan

Indra
The second Sharingan user, first known Mangekyo user and first known Susanoo user, his spiral eye was red, it was a Mangekyo Sharingan. So its color needs to be changed and added here. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 10:25, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Really? We know nothing about Indra's prowess. His eye was first shown as a spiral-patterned one, and now it seems he had the Sharingan. I think we'd better wait for further info. About the Mangekyō, Susanoo, Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu thing, Ashura had something almost identical to Naruto's Tailed Beast Mode, but we don't list him as a jinchūriki or as a Nine-Tails Chakra Mode user, do we? Is it really that bothersome to wait a couple weeks?--JOA20 (talk) 21:10, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

"handful"
Madara, Izuna, Obito, Shisui, Itachi, Sasuke. That is 6 known to have awakened it, Indra was an Otsutsuki not an Uchiha and of course Kakashi doesn't count. So can 6 people really be considered a handful?? ItachiWasAHero (talk) 17:05, April 6, 2014 (UTC)

Even with the others included, it's not like adding more would be considered a handful compared to less. Though as I understand i, handful is around 1-5, so with six, I dunno, I guess if you can find a better word, like several maybe? --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 17:43, April 6, 2014 (UTC)

Several is better to use, as the definition of it is "More than two, but not many" so I will change it. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 18:15, April 6, 2014 (UTC)

Handful I guess is meant more like a percentage, from all the hundreds Uchiha since Madara, only a "handful" had the Mangekyou.--Elveonora (talk) 18:41, April 6, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, six people can be considered a "handful" relative to a clan that has had hundreds of people come and go throughout the generations. There is no specific range of quantity that defines the term; it is used to define a select, relatively small number of things, or people, compared to a much larger whole.

The change has already been made, and it honestly isn't that big of a deal. Just sayin', it didn't have to be made in the first place. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 18:53, April 6, 2014 (UTC)

Did Madara really talk about the Mangekyō?
Did madara really talk about the Mangekyō Sharingan when me mentioned "only he and Sasuke have the "Straight Tomoe""? In the translations I have read he simply says Sharingan. Not that I would know what was meant by calling their sharingans straight, but then again, I wouldn't really call Madara's Mangekyō straight. --Cosmikaze (talk) 20:47, April 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Madara stated that Sasuke's Eternal Mangekyō had the Straight Swirl. Madara stated that Sasuke had the same Straight Swirl as him. So: Madara's Eternal Mangekyō had the Straight Swirl. How, I actually have no idea.--JOA20 (talk) 20:49, April 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I figured that might be what he was talking about, but I just find it strange that he takes credit for the Mangekyō Izuna awakened. Either way I just wanted to make sure if the manga actually specified Mangekyō, since no translation I have found does so --Cosmikaze (talk) 21:02, April 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, just read chapter 657. --Cosmikaze (talk) 21:15, April 27, 2014 (UTC)

this may sound weird, but
Aren't its techniques technically Kinjutsu? Since they harm the user and all--Elveonora (talk) 12:24, June 6, 2014 (UTC)

I hate to admit it but I think I finally agree with you on something and that something being this. Munchvtec (talk) 12:27, June 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Technically, yes. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:54, June 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, the "something bad will happen with repeated use" does bring to mind Tsunade's early comments on Rasenshuriken. However, that also means that EMS techniques are also technically not kinjutsu, since the user no longer goes blind from them right? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:18, June 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * There's no EMS-specific technique known tho. Techniques simply don't change status since the infobox should be timeless--Elveonora (talk) 10:27, June 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * By EMS techniques, I mean MS techniques that we know have only been used by EMS, for example Blaze Release: Susanoo Kagutsuchi, Blaze Release: Yasaka Magatama, Tengai Shinsei. Stuff that was not used with regular MS. This would also exclude stuff that is reasonable to assume would be possible with regular MS, like Susanoo: Captive Slash. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 13:20, June 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, those aren't kinjutsu unless a MS user uses them and harms himself--Elveonora (talk) 13:38, June 7, 2014 (UTC)

I thought we agreed that we don't label anything kinjutsu unless it is labeled as such in the series? After all, kinjutsu isn't a broad categorization for certain techniques, it is a specific, very much political label given to certain dangerous techniques by a village head. We're not about to go slapping that on the Mangekyō Sharingan techniques. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 16:33, June 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * What a nonsense you have said here. So for something to be x a village head first must label it so? Lol. So a suicide no jutsu won't be suicide no jutsu until some old fart in hat says so. Logic much. Not to mention we already list thing such as Casualty Puppet as Kinjutsu and I don't recall it having been mention in any of the episodes that any old fart did declare it as such--Elveonora (talk) 17:07, June 7, 2014 (UTC)

Bump--Elveonora (talk) 12:57, June 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Bump--Elveonora (talk) 13:04, June 16, 2014 (UTC)

fallacy
"It was also awakened by Kakashi Hatake — a non-Uchiha" No, it wasn't. The manga made it clear that Sharingan = effect of special chakra on the optic nerve released by Uchiha brains. Kakashi isn't an Uchiha or part Uchiha to our knowledge. The reason why Kakashi's eye transformed was because of its connection to Obito's. Kakashi witnessing Rin's death and feeling loss was no different than what would be if Sakura killed Ino, she would get no Sharingan--Elveonora (talk) 12:13, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Huh? What does the special chakra thing have to do with the Mangekyo Sharingan? • Seelentau 愛 議 12:18, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Since it has with Sharingan, so it does with Mangekyou, Tobirama's explanation covered it whole. "The deeper the darkness gets, the greater the power becomes" He also said that the special chakra is released upon witnessing loss of great love--Elveonora (talk) 12:30, June 30, 2014 (UTC)


 * According to Tobirama, it's that peculiar chakra that's released from the Uchiha's brains and channeled through their optic nerves that brings about the change in their eyes. I believe Elveonora is right, as we witnessed just beforehand that Obito had some sort of link to his left eye, able to see what Kakashi was seeing, as he approached him. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 12:31, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * But Tobirama's words, as you quoted, don't say anything about chakra. They say something about darkness. I mean, if it was about the chakra, Kakashi should've never been able to get the Mangekyo Sharingan, since he can't produce that chakra. That's why I conclude the chakra is needed to awake the Sharingan, but not to further evolve it. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:39, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * The Uchiha's eyeballs are no different from that of an ordinary Narutoverse human, it's the brain chakra what makes them transform into Sharingan. Kakashi's darkness should have had no effect on Uchiha chakra in his eye, because it's not connected to it like in case of an Uchiha. If darkness could produce brain chakra in Kakashi, overwriting that of Obito then you would have a point--Elveonora (talk) 12:44, June 30, 2014 (UTC)

Eh, that's not exactly what I was saying. It's the brain chakra, yes. But Kakashi does not have that brain chakra. If it was the brain chakra that let's the eye evolve further, Kakashi would not have been able to do so, since again, he doesn't have that chakra. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:48, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's the very point, therefore he didn't evolve it.--Elveonora (talk) 12:50, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * But he did, since as Tobirama stated, it's darkness that let's the eye become stronger. And Kakashi experienced darkness, didn't he? • Seelentau 愛 議 12:52, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * The darkness in Uchiha is effect of the brain chakra though--Elveonora (talk) 12:57, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * And why is the darkness in Uchiha brain any different in a non-psycho crazy's brain?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:01, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because it's "magic" induced darkness?--Elveonora (talk) 13:07, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * And why does that magic not exist in non-Uchiha with evil cursed eyes?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:08, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * It existed in Kakashi's eye, but not his brain--Elveonora (talk) 13:10, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * So brain chakra is now just in the eye and the brain is just there for kicks and necessary body functions?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:12, June 30, 2014 (UTC)

No you misunderstood. Brain chakra is what makes the Sharingan. The stronger the darkness, the stronger the brain chakra. This doesn't apply to Kakashi who doesn't have special brain chakra, so any darkness he experienced shouldn't have affected chakra in Obito's eye--Elveonora (talk) 13:15, June 30, 2014 (UTC)


 * And yet, we watched it did have an effect on the eye.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:18, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Obito? Link to his left eye? —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 13:19, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * This. We also saw Obito seeing through his eye in somebody else' skull--Elveonora (talk) 13:21, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * /shrug sounds plausible.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:22, June 30, 2014 (UTC)

The stronger the darkness, the stronger the brain chakra. - Where was that stated? • Seelentau 愛 議 13:24, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Source: Tobirama. "The deeper the darkness gets, the greater the visual prowess becomes"--Elveonora (talk) 13:30, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yep. But where was it stated that the brain chakra gets stronger from the darkness? • Seelentau 愛 議 13:32, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Visual prowess = power of Sharingan, Sharingan exists because of brain charka. So for it to become stronger, chakra must become stronger, which becomes stronger from darkness--Elveonora (talk) 13:34, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * The Sharingan's creation is because of chakra, becoming stronger is not. That was never stated and Kakashi's case disproves your theory. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:49, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Isn't that a simple deduction rather than theory? Darkness makes the brain release chakra, more darkness releases more/stronger chakra. Darkness doesn't make Kakashi's brain release anything. I insist the eye transformed due to its magical connection to the other eye rather than Kakashi.--Elveonora (talk) 14:14, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wouldn't that mean Kakashi wouldn't have the ability to turn it on or off if he had no real connection to it? I mean we know he can't turn off the regular Sharingan, but he can turn on or off the Mangekyo.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:16, June 30, 2014 (UTC)

0_o /shrugs, Kishi crack. So if further brain chakra isn't required after the initial activation (which would explain why transplants continue to work) how can the Uchiha turn off the Sharingan then? Presumably by severing the chakra flow, but then why do transplants work?--Elveonora (talk) 14:24, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * There is a huge hole in your argument, Elve. Tobirama says that this "chakra" affects the optic nerve, which brings about the Sharingan. The normal Sharingan. Obito's chakra cannot transcend his body and affect Kakashi's optic nerve. Its obvious that the powerful emotion of losing someone close to you is what awakens the Mangekyō Sharingan. That's what has always been told to us, and remains true even after Tobirama's explanation, which pertains to the normal Sharingan. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 16:21, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * "Obito's chakra cannot transcend his body and affect Kakashi's optic nerve" Of course it can't, it's only his sight that can (sarcasm)--Elveonora (talk) 17:05, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * And your asinine reasoning that Tobirama's statement about a normal Sharingan, somehow applying to a Mangekyō Sharingan (despite the fact that we've known the mechanics behind that since Part I) is any better? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 00:42, July 1, 2014 (UTC)

Overview
Just wondering if anyone would be opposed to me altering the Overview a bit to better reflect the Mangekyō Sharingan's heightened Eye of Insight, and Eye of Illusion... And subsequently link the latter to their potential to subjugate the tailed beasts. Thought it would be nice to mention, as the dōojutsu is initially comprised of these two aspects... Ah, but then, that may also raise the issue of whether or not most here agree that the Mangekyō Sharingan affords superior perceptive capabilities before it's "light" is sealed. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 16:13, July 10, 2014 (UTC)

Obito's weird eyes
Can't help but notice that Obito's Mangekyō Sharingan has finally gained the ability to bleed after regaining the one Kakashi had. Kakashi's eye used to bleed when he used Kamui, but Obito's never did. Why the sudden change? It just seems weird... still waiting for an Obito Susanoo too. --Atrix471 (talk) 19:26, July 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because the Kamui used to open the holes between Kaguya's dimensions put a hell of a strain on Obito's eyes, since those aren't his own dimensions and they're far away from each other. SO that was a whole other feat than simply opening the Kamui dimension. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:37, July 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Still, he constantly used his lone eye before, without ANY strain. Weird that he suddenly exhibits normal patterns associated with the eyes. It'd be different if it was only the eye Kakashi possessed that was bleeding, because that eye was prone to bleeding after use, but both? I just found it strange, is all. --Atrix471 (talk) 19:40, July 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * What Seel said. Obito's Kamui wasn't supposed to be used to open other dimensions besides its own one. Opening portals to completely unrelated dimensions required much more chakra, and as such Obito's eyes were extremely strained to the point of bleeding.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg JOA20 19:40, July 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * You can compare it to opening a locked door: If you have the key because it's your own door, it's easy. But if you need to use a pick, it's harder. Or so. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:44, July 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * They bleed from the sheer amount of chakra necessary to accomplish the task. Kakashi's Sharingan bled too only once he overused it.--Elveonora (talk) 19:54, July 15, 2014 (UTC)

Madara and Izuna
Was it actually stated or shown in manga that the two killed their respective buddies or was that forest ambush murder scene only anime-only addition?--Elveonora (talk) 21:39, August 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * While I assume forest murder scene is anime only, the actual method of awakening was never stated and likely never will. So go with the forest murder.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 21:50, August 1, 2014 (UTC)

Straight Tomoe
Sasuke and Madara have EMS, they have their brothers eyes.. which means their brothers were the only two people with the Straight Tomoe and now they have it. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 10:07, August 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Speculation. Madara stated that only he and Sasuke had awakened the Straight Tomoe. Which may mean that Straight Tomoe is just another name for EMS. Also, the name "Straight Tomoe" doesn't define Itachi's Mangekyō at all, at best Sasuke and Izuna's Mangekyō since it's about symmetrical shape. And yet, Madara calls his own EMS (which has no symmetry) a Straight Tomoe.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg JOA20 10:10, August 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * Even that is speculation. We don't know what straight tomoe are or if Madara talked about his and Sasuke's MS or eternal MS. • Seelentau 愛 議 10:16, August 7, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure 'straight tomoe' refers to the way the donor's Mangekyō was incorporated into their own. Itachi's curved tomoe became three straight tomoe in Sasuke's eternal variant, and while Izuna's wasn't necessarily curved, it became three completely straight bars on the edges of Madara's circular Mangekyō. That's my take on it. --Atrix471 (talk) 10:43, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

I think Atrix is right. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 16:28, August 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, as much as I appreciate the support, it's still speculation unfortunately. --Atrix471 (talk) 21:13, August 9, 2014 (UTC)

Kakashi gaining Susanoo
It seems that the reason Kakashi got Susanoo isn't just because he got both eyes but because he also received the power of the 6 paths which improved the eyes' power; shouldn't that also be added in to all the pages with Kakashi's new power?--Deathmailrock (talk) 19:41, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hmm... Kakashi did confirm that the Rikudou's power did make his eyes stronger (I always wondered why Kakashi was instantly able to conjure up a PS and where he got the chakra reserves from to do so, but the Six paths power can do anything like Naruto said, so it makes sense). Plus the Six paths power could be the one with the "fixed time limit" Obito was talking about, so... yea, whateva.  WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 19:45, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Infobox Error
Hey, guys... This might be just me, I see something called "Thread: Sasuke Uchiha" in the infobox. Another glitch, I suppose. Can someone correct this?-- Ninja Sheik  19:54, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't see it--Elveonora (talk) 19:56, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * I saw it once, because some idiot moved Sasuke's page to Thread:Sasuke Uchiha, but I just pushed the Null Edit button and it was gone.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg JOA20 20:05, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * What JOA20 said. Just perform a null edit to update the SMW cache. --SuperSajuuk Talk Page 20:23, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah, it's gone. I didn't even have to use that null edit thing. I don't even know what the heck it is, anyway. ^_^; I never had to use it before. Well, whatever, it's fixed now.-- Ninja Sheik  03:29, August 31, 2014 (UTC)

Sasuke wielding Itachi's eyes.
While it has been argued in the past whether or not Sasuke has Tsukuyomi, evidence strongly suggests that he does. As seen with Obito's left Kamui from Madara, when an Uchiha transplants a Mangekyo eye into them, they add all the said eye's techniques. Likewise, Sasuke, despite having Itachi's eyes, can still use his original arsenal of techniques from his original eyes. That being said, Sasuke would indeed have Itachi's Tsukuyomi and Yasaka Magatama. Hence, we should add those two techniques to Sasuke's infobox.—Steveo920 (Talk) 23:57, September 16, 2014
 * I agree with this reasoning, but shrugs, others don't I guess.--Elveonora (talk) 09:50, September 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Me too, but the thing is, we've never seen those techniques and he was never even hinted at having them. Your reasoning is true, but it's "outside reasoning", so to speak. • Seelentau 愛 議 10:55, September 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know what you mean by "outside reasoning", but just because he hasn't shown it doesn't mean he doesn't have it, similar to how Obito never used Animal Path, but be we know he did have it.—Steveo920 (Talk) 9:37, September 17, 2014
 * We know he did because Kabuto confirmed that he can use it to read Yamato's mind. Was that the Animal Path? Can't remember. That's "inside reasoning": Using statements from the manga, even though a demonstration of the technique wasn't shown. We have no statements regarding Sasuke's Tsukuyomi, even though for us outside the manga, the readers, it seems logical. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:45, September 17, 2014 (UTC)

Sasuke did confirmed to feel Itachis dōjutsu powers after the eyes were transplanted into him.—Steveo920 (Talk) 14:30, September 17, 2014
 * Yes, but the transplantation of eyes to gain the Mangekyo Sharingan is different from what Madara did with Obito's eye. I don't know... I understand your reasoning, but I'm against adding him as a user simply because of that reason. Otherwise, all those people come and want to tell us about using it against B or Danzo, which simply isn't confirmed. If we add him now, they would think it is. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:04, September 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Steveo920, you bring up an extremely valid point. Yes, Sasuke has Itachi's eyes, and yes, Madara had Obito and was able to use Obito's technique, so why can't Sasuke use Itachi's? It's a good point, but no where in the manga was it confirmed that Sasuke could use Tsukuyomi. Yes, we assume a lot of things on this wiki, but eye techniques aren't one of them. For example, Madara can use Limbo with Hagoromo's Rinnegan, so why isn't Hagoromo a user of Limbo? It was his eyes. But Hagoromo hasn't said nor confirmed usage of Limbo just like Sasuke hasn't said nor confirmed usage of Tsukuyomi. Again, very valid point, but when it comes to eye techniques, we rarely, if at all, assume things like we used to. -- WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 20:18, September 17, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not trying to start an edit war, but Madara's Rinnegan was different. He recreated the Rinnegan, he didn't take Hagoromo's actual eyes?.—Steveo920 (Talk) 16:53, September 17, 2014

It would be the same as recreating any kekkei genkei, it may be the same dojutsu(rinnegan) but it is not the same eyes. They are Madara's eyes(were Izuna's eyes actually) and he may have cheated to get it.. but the Rinnegan kekkei genkei was his. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 00:38, December 6, 2014 (UTC)