Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-36394790-20180824122210/@comment-34194151-20180906084114

@Nashikeine

This is a dangerous fallacy. I call it, "the fallacy where because a character chose X action to get out of situation A, it was their only option. Just to illustrate why this is dangerous, here are two examples. Part one itachi failed to incapcitate Part one kakashi with ninjutsu or 3 tomoe sharingan genjutsu, therefore he needed  tsukuyomi to defeat kakashi. Therefore, restrict tsukyomi and he would have lost. logically, itachi could still find a way to win, because he had the feats, hype, and portrayl to be above that version of kakashi, even though there isn't on panel evidence proving it either way from the actual battle.

V2 Raikage and hebi sasuke(to an extent) are the only characters seen using shunshin to evade amaterasu, therefore you need to be at least as fast as hebi sasuke to dodge it, when there was nothing suggesting what the minimum speed is you need to evade it. By this logic, juubito and kaguya couldn't evade amaterasu because they chose to tank it/block it, except we have enough information to know they are faster entities then the characters I listed, so they could dodge it if they wanted to, that much could be inferred. they simply chose another option that was equally or more effective. For characters below V2 raikage in speed, it's impossible to set the benchmark for what speed you need at minimum to evade the sharingan's gaze. Basically, if you don't have enough information, then it's an open question.

Now I'll explain why I currently believe that this analogy translates to the itachi and sasuke situation. hopefully those examples were good enough to illustrate what I'm getting at.

Now back to itachi and sasuke, itachi and sasuke were trapped in kabuto's genjutsu, they used a genjutsu style- partner method to break out, so they have no hope of breaking it themselves. a genjutsu master like itachi couldn't break it by himself, therefore how can anyone above him accomplish it???!!

Partner method again is FAIL-PROOF. it always works. never has it been stated that the effectiveness of partner method is dependent on what method of external chakra disruption to break out, as long someoneelse inserts chakra into you, the genjutsu will be broken without fail. The only methods of doing this is through physical contact, but itachi was creative enough to know that genjutsuing someone is another effective method to transmit chakra. The only exception are outliers like izanami and Mugen tsukyomi, for obvious reasons. choosing the most efficient method =/= only method. unless you can prove that somehow partner method has some limitations, then you can't prove that it was used because the two characters in question didn't have the capability of breaking it themselves, by other methods. You said that susano'o was disabled. So they can't manifest the chakra to use their most powerful MS ninjutsu, yet they can use their MS genjutsu. How does that make sense? Well it's simple, the genjutsu was powerful enough to disrupt their chakra flow enough that they were forced to turn off their jutsu. we have seen that powerful genjutsu can even put people to sleep, so this isn't unusual. Their chakra flow was disturbed because they were caught off guard, but then they rather soon began their countermeasure. Don't get me wrong, the genjutsu is incredibly strong, but it would have been more effective to hype it up if the uchiha bros were fighting 1v1, with no chance of a guaranteed escape. Then we would be able to know for sure. Now, if my headcanon on partner method is incorrect, then I will concede this point without issue.

Also, on susano'o. see, the problem with what you said there is that we see absolutely no evidence of strain when sasuke is using his susano'o after he gets EMS. Before, the dude was legit coughing up blood and in crippling pain against Danzo after extended usage. we established that the eyes don't matter for maintaining susano'o. but, now sasuke can utilize higher variants of susano'o without any strain at all, when they require more chakra to be maintained. Clearly, either EMS increases chakra reserves, or removes the pain and suffering associated with using the jutsu. Either way, it doesn't simply cure blindness. We have seen hashirama use a massive jutsu like shinsuusenju, and while using it made him tired we have never seen it cause him pain, or any other chakra taxing ninjutsu causing pain. Exhaustion is not the same thing as pain. The pain and coughing up blood seemed to be an exlcusive cost to susano'o.

And for rasengan, yeah, I think kishimoto was just hyping up his speed. He made the clone so fast and then the rasengan so fast and then shunshined in front of tsunade lol and then released the clone just for the lolz haha. TBH I feel that it's done for dramatic purposes/nostalgia. we see KCM naruto for example using two chakra arms to create rasengan in some instances, but in others he can use one.