Talk:Hamura Ōtsutsuki

Needed?
Is this page really needed? We don't know anything about him at the moment after all. Noweeaboohoo (talk) 07:22, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * We've had pages that were almost empty for a long time, wait until Naruto and the Sage are done talking, it's possible that more will be shown. TricksterKing (talk) 07:27, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * One of the first two humans born with chakra, helped take down the Ten-Tails. Yes. Just as important as Ashura and Indra were when they were first mentioned as the nameless sons of the RS. Hagoromo is going on about his history, we're bound to hear more about his brother. --OmegaRasengan (talk) 07:36, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

Older?
Just to get this out of the way, I see that for a moment, this page was moved to indicate that this was the older sibling. However, I don't see anything in either available scanlation that points Hagoromo as the younger brother. Is there an early released raw or something similar that corroborates this? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:24, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Na. He should've actually been the younger one, since Hagoromo was the first human to be born with Chakra. Seelentau 愛議 14:27, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * I ask this because I can totally see Madara either not knowing the full story because not all of it was in the Uchiha tablet, or, more likely, that he withheld information to somehow twist history for his own purposes. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:46, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * If I can go a little off topic here, what about this guy and the Ten-Tails? Did he have it sealed in him as well?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:54, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * I was confused as hell by that too, and I'm certain that the next three or four chapters aren't going to be any better in that department. Ideally, all that means is that they split the Ten-Tails like Minato did with Kurama, and that when he died, Hagoromo took the other half into himself. I can't deal with a future reveal that there is another Ten-Tails out there, or even worse, another set of nine tailed beasts. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:59, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * That was my speculation as well...But for now let us worry to make sure if that is even the case in the first place.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 15:09, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

At the risk of staying further off topic, I came up with two distinct possibilities.
 * 1.) Just like with Minato The ten-tails was split into two seperate entities ( I.E Yin and Yang), and the other brother sealed himself, with the help of Hagoromo, inside the moon to keep a check on the Ten-tails original body. this means that if the eye of the moon plan was completed- he'd be waiting for a sucessful return to earth.
 * 2.) the other brother died during that battle, which caused Hagoromo (who was most likely the older brother, the one laced with natural power) to adopt his younger brother's policies Iowndisciti (talk) 15:21, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

Those both are COMPLETELY speculation, and there's a lot more that could've happened then those two distinct possibilities. Madara Uchiha was stated to be the first person to awaken Mangekyo, which is obviously bullshit. Hagoromo was stated to be the strongest Shinobi to ever live and the creator of ninjutsu - We now know both of those titles are his mother's, not his. Skarrj (talk) 20:09, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

His weapons
I was wondering why he isn't listed as a wielder of his weapons when I realised that I don't even have a clue about what those might be. The thing he's wearing on his back is too short to be the sheath of that hammer-thing he's wielding, so do you guys think it's for a sword? Then coming back to that hammer-staff: Does anybody know what it really is and could give me the name of it? Noweeaboohoo (talk) 23:07, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think it's just a variation of shakujō.—Entondark (talk) 23:16, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * According to wikipedia, the shakujō's big deal are the rings on it. There aren't any here though. That, or they are very small and can't be seen well thanks to the angle....Noweeaboohoo (talk) 23:45, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * For now I think he should be named as a user of staff.—Entondark (talk) 18:22, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Alright then. What about the thing on his back? Noweeaboohoo (talk) 23:37, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hard to say, can be a sword or anything else, let's hope the next chapters.—Entondark (talk) 01:01, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

Jinchuriki Status
When this page was created, it mentioned that he, like Hagoromo, was a Jinchuriki of the Ten-Tails.

But now I noticed that his Jinchuriki status was removed. The raw version of this chapter is available now, right? Hagoromo said "Sealing it in ourselves" or "myself"?

--RIkudo (talk) 17:46, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

Unless I'm mistaken, our translator said that according to the raw, Hagoromo's brother wasn't a host himself, he just aided in the sealing. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:34, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Didn't Seel write just "Nah"? No mention of raws :P Unless he said so on a user talkpage--Elveonora (talk) 18:40, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Regarding Hagoromo's brother being a jinchūriki, so even if he aided in the sealing, he was not the one the Ten-Tails was sealed in. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:56, March 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * He used the word "onore", which means "I". There was no "onore-tachi" or anything that indicates they sealed it in both of them. They both fought it, that's true, but Hagoromo was the sole Jinchuriki. Seelentau 愛議 10:41, March 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but real Japanese disagree with you. That's how they commented on your claim: "'ororetachi' sounds quite awkward, a jp would say "onore-ra" instead. Either way "onoretachi/oretachi" means "you lot", not "ourselves". If you want to say "to ourselves" in jp, you say "warera ni", "oretachi ni", "watashitachi ni" and so forth. "Onore ni" is like saying "to self" - you can't really tell whether to himself or to themselves."Faust-RSI (talk) 05:55, April 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * Don't be, I'm not the best translator there is. However, as far as I know, 己 onore is always about oneself, not multiple people. As your Japanese friends said, if he said that they sealed the Jūbi in themselves, he would've used 我ら warera or something similar. Seelentau 愛議 08:24, April 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I'll try to discuss this further, in my opinion, it's a quite important nuance, though I believe Kishimoto left the ambiguousness on purpose. If I understand correctly, you're basing your opinion on the use of the word "onore", so the best way to decide this question is to get confirmation on how this word maybe used - either only for oneself or for something more.Faust-RSI (talk) 08:32, April 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm actually thinking the exact opposite: Kishimoto often writes in such a simple way because the Japanese readers probably don't have a problem understanding what was said. The same goes for the Night Guy line in the recent chapter. While I have problems understanding it, Japanese readers easily get it. Seelentau 愛議 09:38, April 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * It seems this time it's not the case. His answer was; "Onore" is an ambiguous word - it can be used as first, third and even the second person.Faust-RSI (talk) 11:54, April 8, 2014 (UTC)

What does the viz say?--Elveonora (talk) 10:44, April 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I think it is the only way to have more or less real meaning.Faust-RSI (talk) 11:54, April 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * Apparently the exact line from the Viz translation is
 * "We brothers, to atone for the crimes mother left behind... Battled ten tails, an incarnation of the divine tree... and sealed it inside me. The divine tree, robbed of it's chakra fruit, went on a rampage in an attempt to recover it."--Soul reaper (talk) 13:48, April 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thought so. I actually don't think I've ever seen onore being used as we. According to the Japanese wikipedia, you can't use it for third person, though. And if you use it in second person, it's derogatory. Every source I use says it's ususally used as first person singular of I... Seelentau 愛議 14:18, April 8, 2014 (UTC)
 * Translations aside, context clues are also important. The Sage was said to be the first jinchūriki and the one who came up with the art of sealing a beast within a human host. That wouldn't be true if his brother was also a jinchūriki. Kishi has been pretty clear from the start about who was the jinchūriki of Ten-Tails back then. That combined with what Seel has said about onore should put aside any doubt about the possibility of Hagoromo's brother being a jinchūriki. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 16:18, April 8, 2014 (UTC)

Name
If we learn his name, there's something I want to get ahead of. Would we move his article with the surname or without? I sort of get why we didn't use the surnames for Indra and Asura (even though I don't like it and think they should have the surnames), but with this guy, I think not using the surname would really be pushing it. We know that Hagoromo carried their mother's surname, and unless there is a very specific, in-universe explanation, I think that he should have the surname in the article title if we learn his name. I think there's no logic in assuming a sibling wouldn't have the same surname as his brother only because we weren't introduced to him by his full name. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:05, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. As far as Indra and Asura go, it could be a Kimimaro like case and they just didn't carry their father's name, or it could easily be that Asura did and Indra didn't etc, but with these two there didn't seem to be a line of succession or a falling out or anything like that, so there should be no reason why they both wouldn't carry her name, so I say go for it. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 19:26, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

I think you worry too much. This guy's case isn't even remotely similar to Hagoromo's sons, so I don't see why would anyone protest. Unless two different guys banged Kaguya (I think it was a non-sexual conception anyway), his surname is the same as Hagoromo's. In cases of Indra and Ashura, they might have taken their mother's surname, only if they had a second parent themselves of course...--Elveonora (talk) 19:32, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

Romanji
羽村 HagoromoOtsutsuki (talk) 06:32, June 4, 2014 (UTC)HagoromoOtsutsuki
 * It's pretty much a given that his name will be written with katakana as ハムラ, like his mother, brother, and nephews. As far as I know, the name Hamura has no real significance in mythology or history, and was likely chosen because it begins with the same kanji, meaning "feather." It's possible that the 'ra' ending was also intentional, as a connection to Indra and Asura, but that's pure speculation. FF-Suzaku (talk) 09:49, June 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, no HagoromoOtsutsuki. You going like that is just like when IPs could still edit and they'd add the first translation Google Translate showed them for unnamed jutsu based on our placeholder names. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 11:15, June 4, 2014 (UTC)

Ancestor of the Hyuga Clan
Or at least the earliest known one next to Kaguya. Anyone disagree? WindStar7125 (talk) 06:46, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

I can definitively agree with this statement. The byakugan didn't pop out of anywhere, just like the Sharingan it had an ancestor and that was Hamura. We can't say it was Kaguya since she weilded the Rinnegan, Sharingan, and Byakugan (she wasn't the ancestor of one particular dojutsu but all three, so I support this claim.--ElvinWindSword (talk) 04:46, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

I agree. He is definitely the founder of the Hyuga Clan. I'm very sure. --Jlee1 (talk) 11:42, June 22, 2014 (UTC)

Hamura and his obvious Byakugan eyeballs
In order to be a lot less noobish(lol), I'll create this discussion since it is the way we do things around here. Does Hamura have a byakugan? It seems like he does, he fits the criteria: Featureless eyes, a mother with the same dojutsu, the opportunity to be the original ancestor of the Hyuuga. Blah, blah, blah... -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 16:28, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't go as far as to add original Hyuga, but his eyes are probably Byakugan. It would be utterly stupid if they weren't, but yeah. Not known for sure.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:30, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * As it is right now, the article says he wields the Byakugan presumably. Yes he probably does, but do we know for sure — no. As much as people here think they're the oracles of series, they know as much as everyone else. Is he the progenitor of the Hyūga - sure he had their soft features but we need to draw a line where we stop speculating. Again separate fandom from what we do here.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 16:35, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Presumably is there, that's good enough for me. We don't turn the blind eye, and we don't state something unsaid. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:42, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

Koto Senju wrote: Does Hamura have a byakugan? It seemsItalic text like he does,

How does seem (something you yourself said) translate into he does? Just because it seems like he does, does not mean he does. But since you are so all knowing why don't you tell us how the manga will end since you are the writer and not Masashi Kishimoto.

Until it is stated/shown in the manga it should not be stated on here. Remember this is a wiki ABOUTItalic text the manga. Not the actual story and the manga is just adapted from the wiki. Nor is this wiki fanfic.

It should not be added until it is stated/shown in the manga.

--Darkhunter-X (talk) 16:43, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

@Cerez, Fandom and making assumptions based on clear-cut facts thats delivered to us on a silver platter, are two different things. There's more evidence supporting his Byakugan, then anything against it. The idea that he's the Ancestor of the modern day Hyuga is for a different discussion. I only brought up his potential as that position to help clarify the obvious fact that he has a Byakugan. Regardless, fanfiction is not an idea created to explain events in the story based on evidence, but an the idea to make the principles in the story your own. The latter of which, i'm not, nor have I ever done, on this site. Use facts and evidence Cerez, so that you wont sound like such a cheerypicker that breaks down and nitpicks every little thing not specifically stated and thrown into your face in Kishi's writting. @DarkHunter, it's simple sarcasm. and FYI, it was shown in the manga. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 16:45, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

Again you are just pulling things together for what? Your own version of the story? Now your defending fanfics.

No it was not shown in the manga that he had the Byakugan it was just shown that he had featureless eyes.

--Darkhunter-X (talk) 16:51, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

Hmm. Right, fanfic. Your insults are in vain. Regardless. If the community is satisfied with a "possibly", then what can I do besides argue with people who won't listen to reason? I can simply accept the idea, until future revelations. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 17:01, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

You all need to note that we added the Rinnegan into Kaguya's arsenal even before official confirmation from the manga, so we need to stop having these childish double standards. Hamura clearly has the white pupils of the Byakugan and these pupils are the same as the pupils of his mother (who was the orginal user of the Byakugan). So let's stop deluding ourselves and stop arguing on this. Hamura is the ancestor of the Hyuga and the second wielder of the Byakugan.--ElvinWindSword (talk) 04:50, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Yin Release
Has it been confirmed that Hamura has yin release I think he does but I don't recall it being confirmed in the manga. Tasuxeda (talk) 19:28, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, I suspect that since:


 * Hagoromo was shown with the Yang symbol when young, Hamura has to have had the Yin
 * Both brothers were stated to have sealed Kaguya/Ten-Tails--Elveonora (talk) 19:36, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

would it be speculation
To list him as "creepy extension bone" user? I mean, it had to have been passed down from Kaguya and Hagoromo nor his children have it. It would also fit with the whole "eyes" and "body" theme--Elveonora (talk) 11:44, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Agree with you, but think of list him must wait until it displayed or well maybe list him as presumably user of this KKG/. Rage gtx (talk) 11:50, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * To presumptuous for him to even "maybe" be a Dead Bone Pulse user, with what little we know of him. Byakugan was simple. Crazy bone horror show is not.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:03, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * As Kaguya's only other heir aside from Hagoromo, it is very, very likely that he inherited the Kekkei Genkai from his mother. It HAS to be inherited by one of her children or the Kaguya Clan wouldn't even exist, and between Hamura and Hagoromo, its almost definitely Hamura who inherited it. Skarrj (talk) 16:28, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * What? There is also a possibility of Kaguya having more children, who may have or may have not participated in the sealing of Kaguya, hence they are not mentioned. This is pure speculation.--Omojuze (talk) 16:30, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Kaguya has only ever been stated to have two children. The presence of other children has not even been suggested, with dialogue actually suggesting only the presence of the two. Skarrj (talk) 16:45, July 9, 2014 (UTC)

Again, it cannot be presumed he has the Dead Bone Pulse because we have no proof he has. And no it doesn't have to be inherited by one of her kids. Hell it doesn't even have to show up for a few generations. Look at the Kaguya clan article, it states that a select few, meaning not everyone ended up with it. It could be passed down to Hagoromo, or Hamura. We haven't the foggiest yet.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 17:05, July 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree. Mokuton was much the same; a kekkei genkai which hasn't been passed down. The most likely explanation is dormant genes, which could easily apply here. --Atrix471 (talk) 17:35, July 9, 2014 (UTC)

It cannot be passed down to Hagoromo since he nor does any of his descendants have the KKG whatsoever. Therefore, the only logical explanation is that Hamura had it, some of his descendants became the Kaguya Clan and they ended up with the kekkei genaki, or both. Either way, this KKG could have only been passed down to the Kaguya Clan via Hamura. Even if Hamura himself didn't have it. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 21:55, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, but the question was whether to add it to Hamura or not. Which side of the family it travelled down, regardless of how obvious the answer, doesn't really matter here. --Atrix471 (talk) 22:03, July 11, 2014 (UTC)

Presumed deceased
His fate was left uknown, there was no proof nor quote of his death, there were only speculations that he became the "shinigami", but that's just a specuation, therefore I suggest to change his status to: Presumed deceased. --LightWyvern (talk) 16:34, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's pretty obvious he's dead, he existed a very long time ago, long before Madara and Hashirama existed (maybe 1-2 centuries?). If Kishi comes out and says he's alive, then it'll be changed, but for now we are just going to accept that he's dead. --SuperSajuuk Talk Page 16:47, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Just like Kaguya is dead. And Hagoromo also doesn't seem very dead anymore--Elveonora (talk) 16:52, August 25, 2014 (UTC)

Lately, the trend in this wiki seems to be "If x wasn't explicitly stated, it's not true" (genders of the TB). So yeah, he wasn't explicitly stated to be dead and was last seen alive. We should put him as alive, until proven otherwise. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:56, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Now that's some shady logic right there. "Let's list him as alive, because no one has said that he's dead". Correction on one thing though: That isn't the trend on this wiki and actually flies in the face of a huge discussion the wiki had a few months back. That is simply what you and Elve insist on to the death of us all, so Ultimate has had no other choice but to comply and enforce it to spare us the endless arguments. But no. We will not list him as alive until proven otherwise. We did the same with Kaguya and Hagoromo is just floating chakra --- therefore dead. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 17:02, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Seel, Oh no, so you too? I thought one Ulti is more than enough :P @Foxie, right, listing him as alive is too much, but so is deceased, since we are dealing with gods here, so presumed deceased is the way to go. And I wouldn't count on Hagoromo being just "floating chakra" we weren't told what's the deal with him--Elveonora (talk) 17:04, August 25, 2014 (UTC)

Hamura was never stated to be anything like Hagoromo. Much less a "god". Please troll less. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 17:11, August 25, 2014 (UTC)

But that's the logic you're using on other topics, Fox. He was never confirmed to be dead, the last picture shows him being alive. Therefore, he must be listed as alive. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:17, August 25, 2014 (UTC)


 * He's dead until stated otherwise. You don't get to presume he's alive just because his mother is immortal and his brother floats around the universe as chakra. He is human. He has a human life span, so he's dead until stated otherwise, just like the other two. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 17:20, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Why [He's dead until stated otherwise.], why not [He's alive until stated otherwise.]? Being human doesn't mean shit, look at Madara. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:21, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Foxie, We didn't see him dying. Also you assume his lifespan was the same as of an ordinary human. Uzumaki have longer lifespans, so Hamura might as well had one to the extreme--Elveonora (talk) 17:22, August 25, 2014 (UTC)


 * Wake up, Seel. Madara died. Like a human. He came back to life, yes, but that's unnatural as it is. He would've died too had he not been stuck to Kaguya's husk in an underground cave and even that barely kept him alive. Hamura is nothing like his mother and brother. He has no jinchūriki powers, he doesn't have immortality like his mother, and he has no other unnatural powers that we know of other than the Byakugan so you are assuming he has something that would keep him alive. No, he's dead until he comes flying in from nowhere, which he won't. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 17:23, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * And you assume he's dead because he of all people wasn't special. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:25, August 25, 2014 (UTC)


 * And you assume he was special. So who's assumption is more right? He's dead until stated otherwise. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 17:25, August 25, 2014 (UTC)


 * As stupid as it is. Nothing was stated about Hamura. He could be worm food. He could be hiding in whatever Kaguya uses as a uterus. "No assumptions. Logic is forbidden. Nothing and everything is as Kishimoto commands." For this would be better to just completely remove the Status section of his infobox so neither side wins.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:27, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Isn't "Presumed deceased" for cases like this? • Seelentau 愛 議 17:28, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd be fine with presumed deceased. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 17:29, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Presumed deceased is also an assumption. But very well. Put it back if you so desire.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:30, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * We could write "Unknown", too. Or "Likely deceased" or so. Saying he's dead because he can't be alive because of [reason] is as wrong as saying he's alive because he wasn't stated to be dead. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:40, August 25, 2014 (UTC)

Why i suggested removing the entire section. Nothing was stated so nothing should go. No assumptions one way or another.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 17:41, August 25, 2014 (UTC)

He is dead.......leave it be Hagoromo Otsutsuki' 14:22, August 26, 2014 (UTC)HagoromoOtsutsuki
 * Have you proof for that? • Seelentau 愛 議 14:34, August 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * He is infamous for random comments :P--Elveonora (talk) 14:47, August 26, 2014 (UTC)

So
Hagoromo used only one hand in the flashback. That means Hamura contributed with the second symbol after all and Hagoromo somehow received the Yin symbol later on--Elveonora (talk) 14:52, August 28, 2014 (UTC)


 * Looks like it.--TheUltimate3 Amegakure_Symbol.svg (talk) 14:53, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Truth-Seeking Balls
Hamura also had a similar staff, so I think it's safe to assume that he also has Yang and Yin-Yang Release, which makes perfect sense to me since both brothers inherited strong eyes and strong bodies, with Hamura all but outright confirmed to be the common ancestor for the Hyūga and the Kaguya clans. He even had the same attire as Hagoromo, Madara and Kaguya.--Reliops (talk) 17:58, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wat--Elveonora (talk) 19:10, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * …sorry, why couldn't the staff and the clothes be handmade?--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg JOA20 19:14, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Clothes are just that, clothes. For the staff, it might or might not have been a TSB staff, but even if it was, there's no guarantee he made it. For example Naruto made for Sasuke the TSB platform. Also what does YYR have to do with anything?--Elveonora (talk) 19:19, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

It is highly unlikely the staff is handmade because it is identical to Hagoromo's with the exception of end bits. Hagoromo, Madara, Kaguya, and even Obito (though not completely) have the exact same style of clothing right down to the six magatama. This pattern not a mere coincidence. YYR is relevant because it is one of the components that make up TSB. We know that Hagoromo could use TSB before he became a jinchūriki had the Yang symbol. Hamura very likely had the same abilities, evidenced by his appearance and the staff.--Reliops (talk) 19:54, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * We know he had TSB before becoming a jinchūriki? Didn't we have a massive, unsettled discussion about that before? Last time I checked that was unresolved. --Atrix471 (talk) 19:55, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd think it's hard for someone to form a weapon, give it to someone and have them using it like that.I wouldn't be oppose to listing him as a user.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 20:04, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Reliops, then what about Indra's clothes?--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg JOA20 20:08, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Indra and Asura's clothes were similar, but not quite the same. But more relevant is that while they don't have the same eyes, they most certainly have the same body, with the grey skin and horns, that also happens to occur when one becomes the TT jinchuuriki. And tsb is pretty much hinted to be a body power, seeing how Naruto has it. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 20:27, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

@Reliops, if Hamura is added as a TSB user, then that confirms that Hagoromo also used the TSB before becoming a jinchuuriki, meaning the TSB is not a tailed beast skill. So before @Elveo tries to come at me for this, we don't know if the staffs Hagoromo and Hamura wielded were TSB. I'm not opposed to adding him, but if you do, then that means the TSBs aren't a tailed beast skill, and the last thing I need is to get into an argument about this with @Elveo. As of right now, the TSB is a tailed beast skill, and if so, that means the staffs Hagoromo and Hamura were using weren't TSBs simply because they weren't jinchuuriki at the time they faced the ultimate tailed beast in the Ten-Tails. Plus, the TSBs are made of senjutsu, we don't know if Hamura was a senjutsu user either. WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contribs) 20:27, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Or it means that Hagoromo and Hamura were pseudo-jinchuuriki, simply by being Kaguya's children. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 20:29, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * ^This. As It could be the same with Asura. --Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 20:42, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

@Atrix - we saw Hagoromo using TSB from Kaguya's perspective, i.e. when Hagoromo and Hamura were fighting to seal her. @JOA20 - aside from their attire not being the same, we know that Indra and Ashura both inherited only a part of Hagoromo's powers. @Windstar - the fact that we've seen Hagoromo wield TSB and then seen both brothers wield shakujo, and the fact that Madara and Obito both wielded identical shakujo constructed from TSB pretty much rule out any possibility that Hagoromo and Hamura didn't have TSB when they were fighting Kaguya. The nature of TSB will remain contentious until we class them as what they've been labelled by BZ: Kekkai Mōra.

TSB is likely still a bijū skill. We just have to keep in mind that Kaguya was not a jinchūriki but actually fused with the Jūbi itself. That her children would inherit her powers is not very strange considering she is the progenitor of chakra and that she, according to BZ, possesses all nature types and KKG. We can't really judge Hagoromo and Hamura like other characters on that basis alone. It's very likely they were born as pseudo jinchūriki and had access to TSB that way, but that doesn't really matter. With the exception of those two characters and Naruto, every other character with access to TSB was a Jūbi jinchūriki so they are more likely the exception rather than the rule. So long as we don't make speculative statements regarding the nature of their use. We can state that as Kaguya's children, they inherited some of her powers, including TSB.--Reliops (talk) 20:44, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree with the other stuff, but seriously, clothes aren't an argument. And Naruto conjured a TSB platform for Sasuke, Hagoromo might have done the same for Hamura--Elveonora (talk) 21:22, August 28, 2014 (UTC)


 * I think the clothes are sufficient circumstantial evidence given the context. It's possible Hagoromo created a staff for Hamura, but as I just recalled, in chapter 670 we can very clearly see Hagoromo and Hamura wield their own shakujo whilst fighting the Jūbi. I think it is far more likely both brothers had TSB.--Reliops (talk) 21:54, August 28, 2014 (UTC)


 * The clothes are only a useful argument when discussing them and their correlation between users of the Six Paths Technique. Otherwise, everything else seems to point to him having the ability to manifest a TSB; more evidence for than against.-- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 04:58, August 29, 2014 (UTC)


 * I agree, but I would like a sysop to sign off on this to avoid needless edit wars.--Reliops (talk) 06:29, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

Even though my opinion probably doesn't matter at this point, I think Hamura did wield them for all the reasons above and the fact that to wield it safely, he would have either had to been immune to its effects or Hagoromo toned it down so he doesn't die. Riptide240 (talk) 07:26, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

No, sorry you guys, there's less than 0 evidence. Clothes are clothes (the whole family wore similar clothing) and Hamura holding a staff which might or might not have been a TSB staff isn't any evidence he could use TSB. And if it was a TSB staff, Hagoromo might have conjured it for Hamura--Elveonora (talk) 09:31, August 29, 2014 (UTC)


 * So, you're against the idea of Hamura being a user, when its way more likely than Kaguya being a user. And you're ready to start a war for THAT cause. Like previously stated, we have more evidence that he did then didn't. Granted, the clothes are not valid, in this case. Edit: plus, it wouldn't make sense that Hamura only inherited one aspect of her power (the byakugan) while Hagoromo got the rinnegan, genes for the sharingan, the six paths senjustu, etc. They would need to have something in common. Plus, we saw him with a staff the same coloration as Hagoromo's. Riptide240 (talk) 15:19, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * More likely than Kaguya? We saw her use it. --Atrix471 (talk) 15:25, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

No, I mean for the six paths senjutsu. Sorry, I got mixed up Riptide240 (talk) 15:29, August 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Kaguya used a Truth Seeking Ball which requires Six Paths Senjutsu. Hamura wasn't seen doing anything other than holding a staff that "maybe" was a TSB staff and that might have been conjured by Hagoromo. There's no evidence, only 2 "maybes"--Elveonora (talk) 18:28, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

Even if we disregard the fact Hamura has an identical design to Hagoromo (and Madara, and to some extent Kaguya and Obito) and shared the same six magatama, which is the same number of TSB Hagoromo, Obito, Madara and Naruto have, are we seriously going to deny the fact that the shakujo are nearly identical with the exception of the the end bits, really? Are we going to be that oblivious?

I've presented my arguments and I've produced evidence. I'm willing to go by consensus on this, so all those in favour and opposed, makes yourselves known.--Reliops (talk) 23:15, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

Well, ofccourse we know my position. But, still, there's still some points to discuss. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 23:59, August 29, 2014 (UTC)

What other points are there to discuss?--Reliops (talk) 00:21, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * For one, the relevance to Asura; classifications and such. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 01:03, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Why would Asura be relevant to Hamura having TSB? I don't know what classifications you're referring to either.--Reliops (talk) 02:18, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think that's relevant because if we say that Hamura has TSBs, then we would have to do the same with Asura as well Riptide240 (talk) 02:47, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't quite agree with that logic. We know for a fact that, aside from the similar design, Ashura inherited only half of Hagoromo's powers. Hamura was depicted wielding an identical staff to his brother, which we now know, like those of Madara and Obito, were made from TSB. While I do not deny the possibility Ashura had TSB, I believe that is a very contentious point extraneous to my proposed edit. It may sound hypocritical of me in this context, but if we go too far with ABC logic, then the chain of logic will inevitably collapse on itself. So can we please remain focused on Hamura?--Reliops (talk) 04:41, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

I'm in favor, that's known. And I'll take part in any points that need discussing. Also @Elveo, there is a reason why Kurama isnt a user of the Nine Tails chakra mode. Kaguya is the ten tails therefore can't be listed as a user of a form that requires her Riptide240 (talk) 01:24, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

It'd be nice if we could all just state where we stand on this. I know Elve is opposed whereas myself, Riptide and Koto are in favour. I'm not clear on where everyone else stands.

To reiterate my logic and evidence:
 * We know both Hagoromo and Hamura inherited strong eyes and bodies from Kaguya, i.e. Yin and Yang
 * We know that Hagoromo was able to use TSB and wielded a shakujo
 * We know from that Hagoromo's shakujo, like his Sword of Nunoboko were made from TSB
 * We know that Hamura wielded an identical looking shakujo with the exception of the end bits
 * We know that Hamura had an identical design to his brother down to the six magatama, with the only real difference being the Yin seal

While it would be easy to cast countless creative aspersions on what this could and couldn't mean, it would also be disingenuous to ignore the patterns. The logical conclusion to draw from this is that both Kaguya's sons inherited some of her powers, including TSB.--Reliops (talk) 08:40, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

That makes sense because it wouldn't if Hagoromo got all the stuff and AlHamura only got the Byakugan and strong chakra. So its not adding bullshit if its the most logical conclusion herrRiptide240 (talk) 12:22, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but for the final time, no, no, no and again no. I can wear the same thing as you. Hamura having identical clothes doesn't mean shit, since as you may be aware, clothes aren't part of one's body, they can be changed. Same for Magatama, Pain had them too and Itachi had something similar around his neck, are they too users? And wielding a staff means nothing. By your logic Sasuke is a TSB users because he stood on a TSB platform. There isn't even a rat's fart of evidence and I'm not being rude, just honest, don't get offended.--Elveonora (talk) 12:33, August 30, 2014 (UTC)


 * I find it disingenuous you focus on, admittedly, the weakest evidence, which I have already labelled as circumstantial. The clothes are part of part of contextual clues that form an undeniable pattern.
 * Even if you disregard that, the fact remains that both brothers wielded identical shakujo from the same dark substance. We know for a fact that Hagoromo's shakujo was made from TSB, what the odds Hamura's wasn't despite it being identical? In fact, since you seem to acknowledge Hagoromo could have given it to Hagoromo, what are the odds of that when considering the symmetrical similarities of the brothers in design, inherited powers (both inherited strong eyes and bodies), weapons, and general depiction? The logical conclusion would be that they both inherited TSB, not that only Hagoromo inherited that power and weapons for his brother.
 * If you still disagree, then let it be noted. I'd rather get down to plain consensus.--Reliops (talk) 18:31, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Coincidental circumstances can't be considered to be evidence. Once we are shown black orbs floating beyond Hamura's back, he will be added, worry not--Elveonora (talk) 19:39, August 30, 2014 (UTC)


 * Know what? This will be my last attempt at trying to convince you, even though I don't need to. I'll make it easier for you. Ignoring all other evidence, can you honestly tell me that the shakujo | Hamura carried is not of the same substance as the shakujo | Hagoromo carried back and now? I'm using two images to show that it's very clearly the same shakujo Hagoromo used back before he became the Jūbi jinchūriki. I hope you at least try to be intellectually honest this time.--Reliops (talk) 21:08, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * And I already told you that just because he wielded a TSB staff doesn't mean he made it--Elveonora (talk) 21:13, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Right, I should have known better. I've asked for more people to give their opinions. Riptide and Koto agree with me. Cerez is unopposed to listing him as a user. You're clearly opposed. It's noted. I'm making the edits, and you damn better not try to turn this into an edit war.--Reliops (talk) 21:20, August 30, 2014 (UTC)