Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-32369776-20170706150024/@comment-30426414-20170712212123

Ninjachris wrote: @Lorenzo VonMT the link you posted was sasuke's and naruto's follow up attack after sasuke FIRST used ameno so like I stated it was the first time Madara saw sasuke's ability. Ever heard about the element of surprise.

The link I posted was Sasuke's third use of ameno. The first one was used to evade Madara's lightning, the second was used to stab Madara in the chest, the third one was used to in a combo with Naruto's magnet release. So Madara already experienced the technique 2 times before, but yet he got hit the third time it was used. And there was no element of surprise the third time Sasuke used ameno; Sasuke gave Madara so much warning before he used the technique:

1. He told Naruto to [prepare a sealing technique](http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/674/12) while Madara was listening.

2. Madara visibly sees Naruto and Sasuke activating their jutsus.

3. Sasuke tells Naruto to aim the rasengan towards him and yet Madara still gets hit. If its that easy to surprise Madara as you claim then this battle is ending even faster than I thought.

Ninjachris wrote: Please can you provide the link with Madara being hit the third time sasuke used ameno I would like to verify the circumstances.

I already posted it before but here it is. Note: this is the third time Ameno was used not the third time Madara got hit.

Ninjachris wrote: My point exactly he never used it when Madara had his both eyes.

Oh I didn't realize the second rinnegan magically gave him a counter for ameno.

Ninjachris wrote: You use the word monumentally faster but where exactly are you getting this information, how do you know the speed of rinnegan Madara at his prime since we never saw his speed displayed.

I'm getting this information from the speed feats we've seen both characters display. TTJ Madara was keeping up with 8 gates guy even though he was slower and he evaded a sage mode enhanced FTG combo from Minato. Pre TTJ Madara has shown nothing close to this. You can't hide behind the argument that we've never seen rinnegan Madara's speed displayed because we can only work with what we are given and the manga shows that TTJ Madara has better speed feats.

Moreover, becoming the jinchuriki of the ten tails logically increases your speed exponentially. Just look at how Obito went from getting blitzed by Minato to moving faster than KCM minato when Obito became the jinchuriki.

Ninjachris wrote: And again he is transmigrant who combined senju and uchia cells remember that is how he gained the rinnegan in the first place so essentially he has six path chakra too.

That knockoff six paths chakra is nothing compared to the one Naruto and Sasuke got from the source: Hagoromo. I say this because Edo Madara had this knockoff and Edo Hashirama still bested him. So it wasn't even enough to bring Ems Madara above Hashirama's level. Meanwhile Sasuke went from getting rekt by blind Madara, to bisecting TTJ Madara by gaining the original six paths chakra.

Ninjachris wrote: Madara didn't have a meteor to destroy doesn't mean he couldn't do it, he had susano clones who else has ever done that, and in all fairness Madara didn't heavily rely on his susano.

Again, we can only go on what the manga has shown and it shows that Sasuke's susanoo has better feats. Madara's 25 susanoo clones that only have 1/26 of his chakra and can't even use the PS or fly are not even going to distract Sasuke who can wipe them out by trapping 9 of them in CT's then sending the CT's crashing down to the rest.

Ninjachris wrote: And lastly ameno is overrated who has sasuke ever defeated with not Madara even with help from naruto, not naruto, not shin, not kinshiki or momoshiki.

Thats like saying the TSB's are overated since no one has been defeated by them. You don't measure the effectiveness of a techinque by the number of people it has defeated. You measure effectiveness by level of impact the technique manages to produce: Helped in landing 2 hits on TJJ Madara, helped land 2 hits on SPSM Naruto, helped in sealing Kaguya, helped Sasuke escape many death situations etc. It is not overated, its broken.

Lets say the battle begins with neither side knowing about each others techniques if we're going by the chronology of the manga. They will both engage each other in taijutsu in accordance with their usual fighting style and Sasuke would eventually use ameno, catching Madara by surprise with a sword in his chest like it happened in the manga leading to Madara's defeat

Scenario 2: Lets say they both have knowledge of each others abilities and Madara tries to avoid Ameno by using Susanoo. Sasuke still wins the susanoo in accordance to the feats shown by his Susanoo. Madara has no counter for Ameno, if his TTJ version couldn't do it, what makes you think his rinnegan version can?