Talk:Rinnegan/Archive 3

Distinguish shadow clone from the original?
What the heck? Where was this ability shown?Undominanthybrid (talk) 18:06, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

there's a reference --Elveonora (talk) 18:21, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

Though it's not true. Nagato was fooled many times by shadow clones during Konoha's invasion, and he had 6 bodies seeing the action. Madara's distinction is his own merit, unless it's made clear that Nagato being unable to do so was due to his own ineptitude with the Rinnegan. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:22, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

Now you mention it... might have something to do with intelligence and experience. Not to mention Madara has also Sharingan, so his perception is trained to notice such a difference. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Naruto makes 3 shadow clones, each of them has the same amount of chakra right? Maybe he saw the one has less chakra than the original would have or something, or Nagato was dumb--Elveonora (talk) 01:16, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

Why Madara knew isn't important, unless the manga itself brings it up. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:24, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

Question?
In the latest chapter, Madara Uchiha said that he gave his eyes to Nagato. Way later on, Obito Uchiha took an eye from Nagato. "Obito implants one of Nagato's Rinnegan in his left socket, replacing the Sharingan he sacrificed." (Thats straight from the article). Should we say that Obito really got one of Madaras eyes instead? Zelwolf (talk) 02:18, October 18, 2012 (UTC)Zelwolf

Not necessary. If we wanted to be really technical about it, we'd have to call them Izuna's eyes, because Madara took Izuna's MS after his went blind. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:38, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Whoa. I didn't even think about that. Crazy man! It's probably best to keep it at saying he took Nagatos eye. I kind forgot that they were Izunas eyes! Zelwolf (talk) 02:52, October 18, 2012 (UTC)Zelwolf

Uchiha/Senju
Having the powers of both the Uchiha and the senju has been stated as a precondition to awakening the rinnegan. So should we not include it on this page as well as the pages of both clans that this kekkei genkai originates/belongs to the clans... the same way the Sharingan is a Uchiha kekkei genkai and Wood release is a Senju kekkei genkai.
 * It doesn't belong to them. It belongs to the Sage. Remerging the bloodlines simply awakens the Rinnegan. It is worth a mention though, I suppose.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 10:58, October 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * Though I kinda appreciate your reasoning, but it makes me think... If the rinnegan is not an Uchiha or Senju kekkei genkai even though having the powers of both clans is a preçondition, then does that mean Izanagi is not an uchiha kinjutsu ability since the complete izanagi requires both Senju and Uchiha powers i.e. Remerging the bloodlines. However it is clearly labelled an Uchiha kinjutsu. which would make Rinnegan an Uchiha kekkei genkai even though Remerging the bloodlines is necessary. However I would also add the rinnegan as a Senju kekkei genkai because awakening the rinnegan is impossible without senju powers however it is possible to use an incomplete Izanagi without senju power so it is not necessary to add Izanagi as a Senju kinjutsu. Its fine if you see this differently but I think it should be somehow mentioned on both clans pages as well as this page. By the way how do i sign my comments
 * Put four ~ at the end of your post. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:29, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Having senju dna is not a requirement as itachi explained in chapter 587 in the manga. What you are suggesting is that all the Uchiha members in history, which were quite alot all had their hands on senju dna. --Naruto6paths (talk) 19:52, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

Transplanted rinnegan active at all times?
Hmm is that really the case? Nagato didn't have the rinnegan the moment it was transplanted; he awakened it when is parents died. I'd also like the note a transplanted sharingan doesn't stay constant all the time; kakashi is able to switch between normal and mangekyo. --1337 B33FC4K3 (talk) 06:00, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * It is not. It has been removed.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 10:47, October 31, 2012 (UTC)

Madara had the sharingan and mangekyo sharingan, then he gained the rinnegan. so, before his death he had sharingan, mangekyo sharingan and rinnegan and can switch between them, as shown when he was re-incarnated. Is there a reason why Nagato can't use mangekyo sharingan/sharingan as well, since he did get the same eyes from madara? Same thing goes with Obito, when he got Nagato's rinnegan. Since Nagato got his rinnegan from Madara, shouldn't this mean he has access to the Mangekyo Sharingan and Sharingan Madara had before? 14.200.13.226 (talk) 07:06, May 16, 2013 (UTC)

No. Kakashi can't deactivate his Sharingan. If he had received the eye as MS already, it stands to reason he wouldn't be able to deactivate it to regular Sharingan as well. Same with Nagato and Rinnegan. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:13, May 16, 2013 (UTC)

Adding an "Acquisition" section
I'll add a section in teh article which details obtaining the Rinnegan. If you like it, it can stay. If you don't like it, feel free to remove it. Xfing (talk) 11:05, November 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * What excactly do you mean by "obtaining the Rinnegan"?--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 11:23, November 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * obtaining Sharingan -> obtaining Mangekyō Sharingan -> obtaining EMS -> obtaining Senju cells -> obtaining Rinnegan Xfing (talk) 11:32, November 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * I've already removed it. Not only was it interjected with wrong information, everything there was mentioned already. The second paragraph that spoke about rearing Rinnegan babies was utterly unnecessary. Leave some things to people's imagination.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 11:35, November 12, 2012 (UTC)

Maintaining Susanoo has nothing to do with Rinnegan
Maintaining Susanoo has nothing to do with the Rinnegan. It serves no purpose in the topic. Itachi maintained Susanoo without even the Sharingan.NoJutsu (talk) 02:55, December 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Itachi used Susanoo with (near) blinded Mangekyo Sharingan, as his eyes were not shaded in the manga as they usually would be, similar to how his left eye was depicted after using Izanami. Madara using Susanoo with his Rinnegan active is the only time the technique has had a confirmed non-Mangekyo use, so it might be worth mentioning.--BeyondRed (talk) 03:31, December 12, 2012 (UTC)

Question
Since Madara has the ability to change from Eternal MS to Rinnegan, is it still possible for Madara to change from Rinnegan back to to Eternal MS, since Madara throughout the manga was already seen activating the Rinnegan? 125.212.50.94 (talk) 11:29, June 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * He's already done that in the manga. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:51, June 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh maybe I haven't looked much into the detail, but thanks for the answer. 125.212.50.94 (talk) 05:48, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

Samsara
I don't know if this is the place to ask/talk about this, but when doing a swift read of the Rinnegan article, I clicked on the Samsara hyperlink which brought me to the Samsara page on Wikipedia. Under the "In Popular Culture" section, it says the Rinnegan allows the user to preform any Jutsu wanted. I want to change this to "allows the the user to potentially completely master all five basic nature transformations that form the basis of ninjutsu", similar to what is on the Naruto Wiki Rinnegan page. Would this be a more accurate change, or should it be kept the same? The Rinnegan does not let the user use any jutsu, just master the nature release of the jutsu. The user would still have to learn the jutsu, right? Zelwolf (talk) 02:28, October 20, 2013 (UTC)Zelwolf
 * While we don't really have an interest in what is on the main Wikipedia page. It would indeed be more accurate if it were changed to whvt is on Narutopedia since we have a direct translation.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 02:40, October 20, 2013 (UTC)

Madara's acquisition of the Rinnegan
If I'm right, soon after Nagato died and was buried, Obito took BOTH Rinnegan from the former's corpse, right? After that, Kabuto resurrected Nagato, using his "fake" Rinnegan and all. Then, Itachi sealed Nagato's resurrected corpse with the Totsuka Sword with Susanoo. My question stems from the following picture: File:Rinnegan_acquisition.png, taken from Naruto Chapter 659, page 9. This manga page implies that White Zetsu didn't retrieve the Rinnegan from Nagato's corpse. The Rinnegan page states that White Zetsu retrieved the right-eye Rinnegan from Nagato's corpse, but how is that possible? WindStar7125 (talk) 00:12, December 24, 2013 (UTC) WindStar7125
 * Obito grabs Nagato's eyes, implants the left one, hides the right one. WZ finds the right eye, gives it to Madara. Nagato's resurrection and sealing has no influence on the real eyes. Seelentau 愛議 23:24, December 23, 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. So the Rinnegan page shouldn't say "while a White Zetsu clone managed to retrieve the right Rinnegan from Nagato's corpse", nor should any other page mention that Madara retrieved the Rinnegan from Nagato's dead body. WindStar7125 (talk) 23:49, December 23, 2013 (UTC) WindStar7125

Classification of Rinnegan Jutsu
Hey I have noticed that the jutsu unique to each of the six paths, are not classified as kekkei genkai. Each of the Jutsu can only be accessed through one of the six paths, with the latter can only be obtained via the Rinnegan. I mean only the jutsu of the god path and outer path and each indivisual path are listed as kekkei genkai. So why shouldn't the soul absorption, asura attack and jutsu absorption not be listed as kekkei genkai. Tuxedo12 (talk) 22:38, December 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * Some of the jutsu Nagato used through the Rinnegan were not listed as kekkei genkai in their databook entry, so unless barring very strong suggestion that it is indeed a Rinnegan power, we have to assume those are like these other jutsu. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:50, December 30, 2013 (UTC)

Nagato being a Senju Descendant
I would like to point out that Zetsu's statement of Nagato being of Senju Lineage does not pertain to descent but to blood relations only, the original word that was used in the Japanese was "Keto" meaning blood, not "Sorsen" which means descent, it is more accurate to say that Nagato is a blood relative of the Senju, not descendant. Celebrei - Talk - Contributions 23:22, January 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * It says 血統 kettō, which means lineage, pedigree, family line or birth. The word sorsen doesn't exist, though. Nagato is from the Senju lineage, so it's not wrong to say he descends from it and is therefore a descendant, isn't it? Seelentau 愛議 23:27, January 3, 2014 (UTC)

Lineage means consanguinity which means relationship by blood, it does not necessarily pertain to descent, only blood relations. By listing Nagato as a "Senju Descendant" the readers are given the wrong impression that his entire clan descended from the Senjus which is a falsity since the Uzumakis are only said to be distant blood relatives of the Senjus, if they descended from the same Apical Ancestor then they would be close relatives, not distant, which would contradict Manga Canon.

It is more correct to say that Nagato is a young boy/young man/ young male from/of the Senju Lineage, not descendant because the Genealogical coefficient of blood relationships that Nagato has with the Senjus hasn't been clearly established yet. Celebrei - Talk - Contributions 00:25, January 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * I totally don't know what the difference between descendant and blood relative is, so do what you think is correct. I can just supply you with the Japanese terms. Seelentau 愛議 00:29, January 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Saying that Nagato is a Senju descendant isn't wrong, since the Uzumaki clan as a whole was said to be blood relatives of the Senju, meaning they have their blood, branching out either from a common ancestor before each clan became known as Senju and Uzumaki, or from an already established Senju clan. They didn't say only a few Uzumaki were related to the Senju, they mentioned the clan in general. They can still be distant blood relatives if the there are enough generations between them, even if they have a common ancestor. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:05, January 4, 2014 (UTC)

The Uzumakis are stated to be distant blood relatives of the Senjus, if they branched from the same common apical ancestor (Younger Son) they would be considered in Genealogical terms as close blood relatives, not distant, for that would mean they would be a sibling clan to the Senjus, but they're not. Being a distant blood relative pertains to distant blood relations not direct lineal descent like the Senjus have from the Younger Son. It is collateral kinship not direct lineal ascent/descent from the Younger Son Celebrei (talk) 01:13, January 4, 2014 (UTC)

I would also like to point out this scan in the Manga that clearly defines the Senjus as being the only descendants of the Younger Son, not Senjus and Uzumakis:

http://i.imgur.com/g8kKaOb.jpg

"The Brother's descendants continued fighting" and the Uzumakis were ultimately absent from the Senju and Uchiha Feud. Celebrei (talk) 01:17, January 4, 2014 (UTC)

Uchiha and Senju are distant relatives themselves, having a common ancestor. Regardless of branching from a common ancestor of the Senju, or from an already established Senju clan, enough generations since the split without marrying between the clans (which only happened rather recently with Mito and Hashirama) would render them distant relatives either way. And that panel is from a chapter that long precedes the reveal of the Senju and Uzumaki being related. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:11, January 5, 2014 (UTC)

No, this panel comes from Tobi narrating to Sasuke about the history of the Senju vs Uchiha Feud, barely 50-60 chapter before chapter 500, this isn't a retcon whatsoever.

Also, it is a categorical error to apply individual blood ties to holistic blood ties, you may say two persons are distant blood relatives even if sharing a common ancestor, but you can never say two families sharing the same Apical Ancestor be distant blood relatives, if they are sibling clans (holistically) they would be close relatives, and in suggesting that the Uzumakis are off-shoots of the Senjus that would even make them closer blood relatives since the Uzumakis would be a descendant clan of the Senjus.

Also you have to factor in the Uzumaki Trademark Red Hair, why do pure blooded Uzumakis have this trait and the Senjus don't? the Younger Son was never stated to have red hair, in fact, in the anime depiction it's black like the Elder Son, then this ancestor (Younger Son) would have two branching descendants: one with various hair colors (Senju) and the other redheads? biologically impossible, red hair is a recessive trait, only if the Uzumaki's ancestors were redheads can they maintain that trademark red hair, look at Naruto: because of the recessive red hair trait, he acquired the yellow hair of Minato.

We will never find a direct statement in the Manga that the Uzumakis are descendants of the Younger Son, only that Nagato is of Senju Lineage (Kinship/Blood Relative) and that the Senjus and Uzumakis are distant blood relatives (Kushina's statement in ch.500) how the Uzumakis are distantly blood related to the Senjus has still not been expounded upon, whether they are of direct lineal descent from the Younger Son or they are Collateral Blood Relatives of the Senjus but not necessarily descending from the Younger Son, I think it's rather intellectually dishonest if the article declares as factual certainty that the Uzumakis are descendants of the Younger Son and the Senjus even though their consanguinity with the Senju Ancestor and his descendants hasn't been clearly expounded yet. Celebrei (talk) 04:37, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

No. That panel is not from that. Obito told Sasuke about the feud between the Senju and Uchiha around chapter 400. The panel you linked above is of Obito telling Sasuke, Kakashi and Yamato about the curse of hatred, and how it began when Rikudo chose the younger son over the older to be his heir, which happened about 60 chapters after that. The reveal of Uzumaki and Senju being related was only revealed around chapter 500. I never said it was a retcon, I only said that the whole your distant/close blood relatives rationale is flawed. In the panel you linked, Obito didn't say the Senju are the only descents of the younger son, only that they are. What I mentioned about that panel is that this happened before the Uzumaki reveal, and neither revelation invalidates the other. Kinkaku and Ginkaku surviving eating tailed beast flesh is attributed to them being descendants of the Sage, yet they're neither Senju nor Uchiha. What you're ignoring is the time factor. Merely having a common ancestor before they were called Senju and Uzumaki proper, or the Uzumaki first branching from already established Senju, as long no mix between them (the only known instance of which is Mito and Hashirama, which is fairly recent), it doesn't matter how the split happens, because with many generations since the split, they'd become distant blood relatives either way, and in both cases, there's a direct blood relationship that would make the Uzumaki clan in general related to the Senju clan in general, not just specific people. That, is clear. Red hair is easily explained by occurring randomly in the Uzumaki after they became a separate clan, explaining why it's not present in the Senju. You're not going to convince anyone the list anything differently with the information that is currently available. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:05, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

If you're going to be adamant in your assumption that the Uzumakis are descendants of the Younger Son then go ahead, because my protestation is about how you and this article declares it as infallible truth that the Uzumaki Clan descended from the Younger Son, which was never stated in the Manga, except for vague passages like Nagato is of Senju Lineage (Kinship/Blood Relative) and that the Uzumaki Clan (holistically) are distant blood relatives of the Senju, my concern is the objectivity and integrity of this article, if in the event the upcoming chapters reveal otherwise, that the Uzumakis are not descendants of the Younger Son, then we will have an embarrassing retraction and the integrity and credibility of this article will be compromised. Celebrei (talk) 01:41, January 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * We don't care about having to do retractions. If something is proven otherwise we simply make the change and keep going forward. We care about systematic retractions (Like translations changing and the like) because those are flippin stupid.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 02:25, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

But in the meantime we shouldn't also declare assumptions as factual statements like the Uzumaki Clan are descendants of the Younger Son, that is an assumption since it has never been explicitly stated in the Manga. Celebrei (talk) 02:29, January 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * Care to explain where it's even mentioned that they are descendants of the younger son? Because unless it's buried somewhere all I see is mention that they are related to the Senju clan...which they are.--02:32, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

Well for example this article declares that Nagato is of Senju Lineage (according to Zetsu's statement) but it links the Uzumaki Clan being (holistically) of the Senju Lineage, that is the categorical error of this article, since it has never been stated that (holistically) the Uzumaki Clan are of the Senju Lineage which implies (if it is interpreted as lineal descent) that both the Uzumaki and Senju descended from the same Apical Ancestor, that is an assumption, for all we know they are merely Collateral Blood Relatives (Distant Blood Relatives accdg. to Kushina), and the coefficient of blood relationship Nagato (personally) has with the Senjus has not been expounded yet. It is better to list Nagato (personally) of Senju Lineage without linking the Uzumaki Clan as Senju Lineage, only that they are, distant blood relatives of the Senju Celebrei (talk) 02:39, January 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * I thought that was your reasoning. Look, neither the Rinnegan article or the Uzumaki article make any mention of the Younger Son. Nobody is making such an assumption, and even if they were, they are welcome to make the assumption. It probably won't be reflected in the article. All that matters is stating what has been stated: Uzumaki and Senju are related. Trying to change the article in such a way to hide what we do know in an attempt to make sure people can't come up with something on their own is, for lack of a better phrase, stupid of us.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 02:48, January 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * EDIT CONFLICT: And by the Light please type your entire message the first time instead of going back and adding to it. For one, it makes trying to reply to anything difficult. Two, unless you are doing spelling corrections, it is bad form to add a new message after the first was time stamped. Also using wouldn't hurt so the page can flow until a indent reset.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 02:48, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

Very well and I apologize, I was merely concern with the Eisegetical implications of the text and the article. Celebrei (talk) 02:58, January 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * It is also very poor form to delete things, even if they area your own comment.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 03:28, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

One thing he is correct about is that it was Nagato himself noted to be of Senju lineage, not the whole Uzumaki Clan in general. No one is denying that the two clans are related by blood. But for all we know, Nagato's connection to Senju might have been stronger and more recent, we aren't even sure if both his parents were Uzumaki or just one. Wouldn't surprise me if Nagato was another Tsunade case. But the topic is pointless, just like Ulti, I can't find it being stated or suggested in any article, so what exactly is being argued about? Back in the day, it stated Nagato to be a young Senju descendant with a redirect to Uzumaki Clan, but that's gone now I believe, the topic would have more relevance if it were made then.--Elveonora (talk) 13:37, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

Known Wielders (Nagato)
Why is Nagato no longer listed as a wielder in the infobox? I'd change it myself but I'm unsure how to edit a particular infobox, unless there was a reason to remove him? Reeves92 (talk) 02:43, February 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * He is listed. His name is the first. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 05:11, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

I don't see Nagato too in the infobox. Maybe it is some bug? HorizonStriker (talk) 06:41, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, I also don't see him as a user. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 07:06, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

Because he's not there Riptide240 (talk) 09:36, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

Still seeing him there. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:09, February 14, 2014 (UTC)


 * Seeing him too. Try null-editing this page as well as Nagato.--~Ultimate Supreme  15:11, February 14, 2014 (UTC)


 * Ok im seeing him now. Riptide240 (talk) 15:15, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

Yep, it's back now, thanks guys. Odd it showed for some and not others. Reeves92 (talk) 04:00, February 15, 2014 (UTC)