Talk:Crystal Release

QUESTIONS REGARDING TOPICS ALREADY IN THE TALK PAGE OR ITS ARCHIVES WILL BE REMOVED, ALONG WITH THE REPLIES TO IT

Speculation?
ok, this is really getting annoying... please tell me how this is speculation? Eeverything I put there was what I got from the trailer and the description of the user of the Crystal Style jutsu.


 * Ok first off, many article have been tagged deletion because the style, move, jutsu, etc. was used but never seen. Second off, many articles have been tagged deletion because the jutsu, move, style, etc. was seen on a trailer but it's full purpose was never seen. Third, many articles have been tagged deletion because the jutsu, move, style, etc. wasn't released yet on real episodes. All three reasons are based on speculation, you got it? --Rasengan888 01:22, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * To be honest the article doesn't even make any sense. It's supposed to be about "Crystal Release" but it says absolutely nothing about what the hell a crystal release actually is, all it talks about is junk about the user which has no relevance to what a crystal release it. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Dec 14, 2008 @ 01:36 (UTC)

well wud u rather me make a page about the user instead and have u delete that one too?!? I dont think so! Now look, while it's only been in a trailer, it's still been shown so I say we don't have to delete, cause someone eventually re-create as the series goes on so I just started ahead, so let's just keep it and update it later! save a lot of trouble!

Everyone has been saying for a long time that Crystal could be Lightning And Earth. Now we have Kakashi defeating part of the crystal style with Raikiri since lightning is strong vs earth so it could be posible thi is true
 * It's still pure speculation. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Apr 27, 2009 @ 06:07 (UTC)

Red
Anyone noticed that in episode 96 the crystal that sprouted from the ground was red instead of the usual pink? The preview for the next episode also shows red crystal. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:30, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Speculation?
"It is speculative that Crystal Release is an Earth-related ability, (a elementally-recomposed nature type of Earth Release and Yin/Yang Chakra Nature,) in light of it's capacity to manipulate the arrangement of minerals and the structure of molecules."

Is this pure speculation or was something like this mentioned in the anime? I'm especially referring to the Crystal nature being a mix of Yin-Yang natured and Earth natured chakra. --ShounenSuki (talk 21:26, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought it was speculation, since I never saw it either in the anime, but I figured I would let you guys decide and delete it. 74.236.92.133 (talk) 21:31, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

It's complete speculation

Is it really speculation?
When Kakashi, Hinata, Kiba and Shino first encounter Crystal release, Kakashi's first thought was: "Is it Earth-natured?" I think we can take it from him that there's some Earth release in Guren's Crystal release, not to mention it was easily shattered by Raikiri. Lightning > Earth. Though to be sure, the other element is still unknown. Should we, however, add back into the article that it is very possible Shouton comes from a combination of Doton and something else? Stating the reasons why we think this, of course. Jules R. J. Blake (talk) 18:49, September 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not going to bother much with this topic, I've seen far too much of this filler arc for my taste. I just want to say one thing: it wasn't Kakashi who thought the Crystal Release was Earth Release, it was Kiba. --ShounenSuki (talk 19:01, September 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but I'm watching it right now, and I just double-checked. It was definitely Kakashi who said that line. But it's fine with me whether this topic is bothered with or not. I guess I should stop working so hard to better somebody else's website :P Jules R. J. Blake (talk) 19:07, September 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * My apologies, I didn't mean to imply that I didn't care about your efforts towards making this encyclopædia better. It's just that I usually don't watch the anime, let alone fillers, and so don't involve myself too much with anime-only topics.
 * When this arc came out, I got involved with the related articles for a while, which is why I have some knowledge about this. I checked that scene back then, and I just checked it again, but it's definately Kiba's voice who asks . It's a bit confusing, since you see Kakashi's face, but you hear the voices of team Kurenai. --ShounenSuki (talk 19:39, September 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm, you're right, it is Kiba (feels like crap now). It's unusual for them to show a person's face when somebody else is talking, but I didn't account for Hinata also speaking when Kakashi's face was on. I apologize. It's still the same argument however. Still, if anyone ever cares enough and this is sufficient evident (along with the Raikiri argument), we may add it to the article, I suppose. Thanks for your help, Suki. Jules R. J. Blake (talk) 19:51, September 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Since I'm involved now, I'd say add it. There's no harm in saying that the Crystal Release is most likely a combination of Earth Release and another element. There's plenty of evidence speaking for it.
 * Also, don't feel bad about making a mistake. You probably focus more on the subtitles than the voices, so it's an understandable error. --ShounenSuki (talk 20:06, September 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Thanks again! Jules R. J. Blake (talk) 20:25, September 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * So now that we figured out that Earth is one of the two elements needed to make Crystal, then can we put crystal in the advanced nature section of Nature Transformation?--NejiByakugan360 20:39, September 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm all for it. It's definitely an elementally recomposed nature type. Orochimaru says so himself. Don't make any speculations in regards to what the other element is though. We have no basis for the other one. Jules R. J. Blake (talk) 20:46, September 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * Ok then. Could you just tell me if this is alright?:
 * The nature, used by Guren, is created by using the Earth nature (Minerals and crystals coming from the ground, i.e. Earth). This nature allows the use of  ninjutsu. --NejiByakugan360 20:49, September 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * That looks perfect, though a small mention about the other unknown element should be added, otherwise it looks like Earth alone is able to create crystals. But that's just me. Perhaps you should wait for ShounenSuki. Great job by the way. Jules R. J. Blake (talk) 20:57, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

Thank you ^_^. I'll add the other part in, about the unknown element as well.--NejiByakugan360 20:58, September 19, 2009 (UTC)

Kekkei genkai
Sorry to bring up more arguments for this topic, but I'm rewatching this arc and a lot of things are popping up in my mind. Can someone clear this up for me? Doesn't the fact that Kakashi couldn't copy it mean that Crystal Release is a Bloodline Limit? It is not mentioned anywhere in the site that it is, so perhaps it needs some editting if anyone can prove this claim. Thanks in advance. Jules R. J. Blake (talk) 03:59, September 20, 2009 (UTC)

Elements
I was thinking, and wouldn't it make sense for this to be a mixture or Wind and Fire? Because when wind and fire mix, it can create glass, and the Crystal Release is similar to glass so....
 * Glass is very different from crystals, but no matter, since the story hasn't said anything, we won't ad anything, as we don't allow speculations. Jacce | Talk 14:41, October 4, 2009 (UTC)

Wind and Fire doesn't make glass. It's Lightning and earth. Sand to be exact.
 * This probably ended a while ago, but lightning doesn't create glass, except perhaps in rare circumstances, in the wild. Glass is created by heating sand with fire.--68.189.10.169 (talk) 00:46, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

Glass crystals known as fulgurites are naturally (not artificially) created when lightning strikes sand and changes the molecular structure of the minerals contained. --GoDai (talk) 05:05, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

I also think that it's Earth and Wind because it has the same weaknesses as both of those elements and if you put enough pressure on earth/stone you can get diamond (barometric/air pressure.) -KonohaSunaKiriKumoIwa (talk) 23:30, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

Earth and Wind is most likely to be Dust. That only leaves Lightning. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:35, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

Earth & Yin (or Yang). Earth + Fire = Lava, Earth + Wind = Might be Crystal, Earth + Lightning = Explosion, Earth + Water = Wood (I like Mud Release better).

Earth Release can deliver mud-based techniques by itself. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:38, March 8, 2011 (UTC)

I think it might be the missing Advanced Nature, Wind and Earth, idk why but makes sence to me for some reason, Dust release isnt Wind and Earth, its infact Earth Wind and Fire, i think of the wind as preasure and thats what is used to create diamond from minerals and fossils in the ground over years of preasure. Just a guess but it makes somewhat sence. {24/09/2011} i don't know how to leave a sig so i will just Put my user here: ( Cebi )

Release
Kakashi cant copy it either because its a kekkai genkai or because it has wind release in it(note kakashi cant use wind release go check his page). And the color of the crystals honestly in naruto colors change all the time take the sharingan for example it changes from dark red to bright red all the time

or It could simply be 3 elements by ReibiKami, btw i also made the one above this

Having Wind Release or not would be irrelevant, because if it's Earth and Wind, it would be kekkei genkai, meaning Kakashi can't copy it. Kakashi has seen a bunch of Wood Release jutsu from Yamato, and Kakashi himself can use Water and Earth, but that doesn't mean he can use Wood. And there has never been any hint of advanced natures made up by more than two natures. Also what's with the color of the crystals, what's the relevance of it to Kakashi being able to copy it or not? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:49, July 4, 2010 (UTC)

i was just pointing out to whoever mad the article titled Red that colors and shades change all the time in Naruto such as the sharingan, narutos eyes and even the akatsuki cloaks(itachi and kisames cloaks look like dark blue when we first see them but when we see pain his cloak is dark black). Though I bet that its just that the graphics got better.

And about the relevance thing I want to point out that in TWO different instances in naruto have people been able to manipulate advanced elements(though there were probably more times)number 1 the first movie kakashi was able to use a ice release technique BUT thats only because either he was using chakra to manipulate it or he simply combined them both. Number 2 when kakshi was fighting that guy who manipulated all the elements with the assimilate all creation technique by using chakra to use it but I dont really know

Please sign your comments, just put four tildes (~). Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:52, July 7, 2010 (UTC)

I know this is a very old convo but the post made by Rebi is asking for explanation. First off Kakashi and those Ice ninja were manipulating existing Ice, second it was in a movie meaning its non-canon, a movie that came out before the Advanced Element info came out, further proving that, Haku's Ice release was said to be a Kekkei Genkai in the early manga anyway donating that its pre-existing ice Kakashi was using, like how Gaara pours his chakra into sand, same goes for Sai and his ink. As for the anime only copy of Oroichimaru's Leech All Creation tech, it was not manipulating an element fusion but stone/rock which donates earth nature anyway.Umishiru (talk) 17:15, December 15, 2010 (UTC)

Jutsu
What's the name of this jutsu? User:Domynyk 21:13, March 7, 2011, (UTC)

Pronounciation
Is it said shOton or shOOton? Or perhaps shOEton?
 * ShOton.--TricksterKing (talk) 23:05, February 25, 2012 (UTC)

Formation
I understand this might fall under "speculation", but after reading up on the formation of crystals, it sounds like the Crystal Style is formed from the earth and water. I could be wrong though. So, it's possible the Crystal Style consists of Earth Style and Water Style. Should we mention this ? --Speysider Talk Page 15:59, September 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Wood Release/topic--Elveonora (talk) 19:14, September 18, 2013 (UTC)

Basic Nature
We should remove Earth Release, because we have alle combinations with Earth--Keeptfighting (talk) 09:54, August 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * Different canons, different results possibly.--Elve Talk Page 09:59, August 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * But as long as we dont know that, we should go with that what we know and that is all 4 combinations are known. We should come back to that Topic, when the case happens that basic natures differs from the Manga in the future Anime.--Keeptfighting (talk) 10:16, August 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * In the anime however, it was speculated to be Earth Release, hence the (Presumed) next to it. And as Elveonora said, different canons, possibly different results.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 10:46, August 20, 2015 (UTC)

Possibly Water?
I have a suspicion that the other element is water, the reason being that the process of Crystallisation (which is essentially what Crystal Release is) involves the cooling and solidification from the liquid state. A mixture of "Earth" and "Water" seems like the most logical elements to produce the Crystal Style imo, but just wondering if we should put "Water Release" in the infobox as "Presumed"? It's not like we're ever going to get a real explanation about it from any official location. --Sajuuk 11:34, June 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * What about Wood Release? • Seelentau 愛 議 11:38, June 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * Doubt Wood Release would be used, given that she would need that KG, which is very unlikely. There's been a few instances of people having the same chakra natures but having different KG's from it (hint: Lava Release). Guren might even be descended from a clan that could produce crystals, but again nothing was given of her backstory as to how she got such a technique. --Sajuuk 11:41, June 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't really know. Earth was hinted to be a component of Crystal Release, so it was mentioned with the "Presumed" tag (since it wasn't outright stated), but Water? The different types of Lava Release (quicklime, volcanised rubber, molten rock and the like) were all named Lava Release regardless (there's the kanji difference, but whatever…). Since it's from the anime, it's next to impossible that it will ever be cleared. For all we know, Crystal Release could be like Black Lightning and Blaze Release, aka a "heightened" form of a basic nature transformation, in this case Earth Release. I'd just let it like this.--JOA2012:50, June 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * No, I meant, what about Water and Earth producing Wood? • Seelentau 愛 議 16:44, June 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * Do we have any... evidence that two elemental natures can make different combined ones? One could also argue that Earth and Water are needed for Mud Release, but that combination already produces Wood. 17:34, June 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * @Seelentau: It's possible that Wood may be used in Crystal Style, but given that there's only 5 standard elements, there are very limited numbers of "combinations" before you begin to get similar combinations that overlap with another (already existing) Kekkei Genkai. I assume the anime uses the process of "crystallisation" when it made the Crystal Style, which says that such things are created in the depths of the earth (ie Earth Style) and by either the precipitation of a solution (which could be Water Style) or by melting (which could be Fire Style).
 * @WindStar7125: As I mentioned above, given that there's just 5 standard elements, there aren't exactly a load of combinations. If a jutsu uses 3+ elements at once, it's a Kekkei Tota and we already know Crystal Style isn't a Kekkei Tota, so that means it can only be Earth + one other element and Water is the only one that would make scientific sense. I mean, you can't exactly make a crystal from Lightning or Wind as those are destructive natures, so those clearly can't be involved. --Sajuuk 17:54, June 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * To my knowledge, it was never mentioned to be Kekkei Genkai, for all we know 3 natures could be involved.--Elve Talk Page 18:08, June 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * It must have been stated, or someone wouldn't have put "Kekkei Genkai" in the infobox. It may be someone simply based that off Kakashi's statement to Naruto about chakra natures. As far as I remember, various characters made "references" to it being a unique jutsu. --Sajuuk 18:12, June 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * So you're saying Wood Release is part of Crystal Release? Or what? Because water + earth creates wood and there's never been any hint that two natures can produce two or more advanced natures. Yes, the qualities may change (see Lava Release), but that's all. So what exactly is your point? Personally, the safest route would be "stronger nature" (looking at Blaze and likely Mud Release). • Seelentau 愛 議 18:25, June 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * You suggested Wood Release first, I don't believe Wood Release has anything to do with Crystal Style. And while water + earth makes wood, there's no evidence to suggest that water + earth can't make other natures: for all we know, Guren could have a type of chakra that allows her to make crystals. It's likely that it could be earth + fire though, given that a strong fire can easily "harden" earth to crystalline qualities. --Sajuuk 18:36, June 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * I didn't suggest it, I asked what about Wood Release because it's made of water and earth. And as I said, there's zero hint that two natures can make up more than one nature. Therefore, with you being the one suggesting it, the burden of proof is yours. But as you said, we won't ever find it out anyway. Now for Crystal Release being a kekkei genkai: Where does that come from? Same goes for the Earth Release thing... could it be that this information comes from a past time when we weren't that strict? • Seelentau 愛 議 18:43, June 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * OMFG, this again? The presumed Earth Release component comes from it being mistaken for Earth Release at one point by Kiba, as referenced in the article, which I sort of agree with. The "it may also involve Lightning Release because Kakashi could shatter it with Lightning Cutter", also referenced in the article, that I think it's stupid. Crystal Release being listed as kekkei genkai I believe is due to Guren telling Kakashi he can't copy it, meaning it's either hiden or kekkei genkai, and the whole "if not basic nature, kekkei genkai". Still nothing in-universe suggesting Water Release is part of it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:53, June 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * Only hint to it is Earth Release, therefor I think it's just like Blaze Release.. simply a stronger earth release. QuakingStar (talk) 18:58, June 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * What Omni said. However, unique techniques like this are hardly Hiden, since this seems like a technique that you don't "learn" but just "know" how to use, similar to Haku having Ice Release by being of a clan that had that technique: the same line of thinking can apply to Guren as well.
 * Thinking about it, Fire Style seems more likely than Water, for the reasons I gave before. The Earth is hardened and compressed at super high temperatures to make crystals, and a Earth + Fire combination seems likely to produce the Crystal Style. Of course, it could just be an advanced Earth Style, but if it's Kekkei Genkai, then I doubt it just has "one nature", given we already know that KKG are a combination of 2 natures. --Sajuuk 19:02, June 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * Still nothing in-universe reliably suggests another component. I've seen it being suggested as a stronger Earth Release, like blaze is to fire, though that has Steel Release as a viable alternative, and the more elegant, though kinda of impossible, earth and yin, with the whole "create shape" of it. I say impossible because of the "not quite a nature/Release" I've seen about yin/yang, that I don't quite get. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:07, June 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * err, if Kiba mistakenly thinks that it's Earth Release, doesn't that mean that it's not Earth Release? Otherwise, he would be right about it, no? About the stronger Earth Release, Steel Release is from a completely different canon, so it's quite possible that the writers simply overlapped their ideas there (think movie Ice Release). From what I understand, all we know comes from guesses and ambiguous statements made by the characters and applying logic doesn't help much, either. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:20, June 8, 2016 (UTC)
 * It's not Earth Release as in it's not pure, basic, run of the mill Earth Release. That doesn't exclude ER being involved at all. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:16, June 8, 2016 (UTC)

Kekkei Tota?
Could Crystal Release be a Kekkei Tota? Considering that crystals are formed in nature when minerals (earth) dissolved in water stick together followed by the evaporation of the water it only makes sense for the water and earh nature to be a part of it. However, we already know that earth and water natures combine to form wood relase. To top it all off, earth (of which the anime highly implied was one of the natures in Crystal Release) has already been combined with every other nature. This would suggest that Crystal Release combines at least three natures. For the third nature my guess would be wind playing into the evaporation aspect.Animalia555 (talk) 03:19, February 2, 2017 (UTC)
 * There's too much we don't know. It could be possible that two natures can create more than one advanced nature. Anyways, talkpages really aren't for speculation. Use the forums.Munchvtec (talk) 03:47, February 2, 2017 (UTC)
 * Where do I find said forums?Animalia555 (talk) 10:11, June 17, 2017 (UTC)
 * Here. Munchvtec (talk) 13:00, June 17, 2017 (UTC)

Kekkei Tota? revisited
(@Munchvtec:) First to say that this is as much speculation as saying that this is kekkei genkai. You just don't know that. But you can fairly guess. So I guess that this should be in kekkei tota article - explained below.

(Animalia555:) My guess exactly. I would say it consists of earth, water and fire releases. Anything else doesn't make sense considering other similar kekkei genkai/tota. Where do I base this Kekkei tota theory? On its intrinsic power, meaning its advantages independent of user's power. Crystal release has elemental advantage over (not directly stated but enough information for deduction) earth, water, lava, boil, mud, storm, wood releases, iburi clan's kg and is equal to or stronger than ice release - that's 7 kekkei genkai and 2 basic releases, 9 in total. Just elemental advantage. (That is not to say that she would defeat Hashirama.) There isn't any kekkei genkai that has that kind of advantage; case could be made for dojutsu but that's different thing (cause it's not pure elemental advantage). There is only dust release (officially;and dark release) that has that kind of advantage. And dust release is kekkei tota.Also there is jutsu string of glory which is quite similar to detachment of the primitive world in it's power and preparation. It's power is not directly dependent on the user as is the case for example with wood release (hashirama and yamato). Rizgubi (talk) 05:00, January 7, 2018 (UTC)

Counter
quote:''Crystal Release cannot crystallise raw energy or chakra, as they have no physical mass to crystallise, allowing those with good chakra control or the lightning or fire natures to counter it. '' Don't know where this is from but it should by that logic include wind release. It should also definitely mention ice release, cause ice is crystallized water. You can't crystallize what is already crystallized. The last may be in the domain of speculation but it makes sense to counter one nature with itself though not exactly the same. Rizgubi (talk) 01:52, January 7, 2018 (UTC)
 * Lightning bit is from it nor working against Kakashi's Lightning Release if I'm not mistaken, don't recall if someone used fire against her. Wind is not listed because pure wind wasn't against her, and wind is still mass, just gaseous. Ice Release bit is speculation. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:51, January 7, 2018 (UTC)
 * wind is indeed flow (of gases). but if the user creates only flow with his chakra he can direct that crystallized mixture at her. She might can crystallize it but she can't stop it. Even though I said this bit about ice release I wouldn't just disregard it. Fire cancels fire, water cancels water, etc or in other words element doesn't have advantage over itself. So why would it be different for crystal release and ice release. If ice is already crystallized and main weakness of those other elements is that they can be crystallized ice release should stand on equal ground. Rizgubi (talk) 05:17, January 7, 2018 (UTC)