Talk:Genjutsu: Sharingan

Debut?
Wouldn't the debut be when Kakashi used a very subtle Sharingan genjutsu on Zabuza. Chapter 15.NoJutsu (talk) 02:16, May 10, 2012 (UTC)

Picture?
Wouldn't an actual image of this genjutsu in action be better? For example, when Deidara was in Sasuke's Sharingan Genjutsu.NoJutsu (talk) 05:03, May 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * Since we don't actually know what this looks like, it's hard to come up with a single one. If this indeed refers to generic Genjutsu cast by the eye, that makes a single illusion even less usable. Hence, why I assume just the eye was used. Skitts (talk) 05:28, May 10, 2012 (UTC)

Picture ? the genjutsu differ each time and from user to user, so likely images of every single basic Sharingan genjutsu--Elveonora (talk) 05:42, May 10, 2012 (UTC)

A picture of a normal sharingan should be good cause thats all it takes for the gen jutsu to take effect.

Other generic Sharingan genjutsu
Since we now have a canonical name that covers all generic Sharingan genjutsus, shouldn't those ones without canonical names be merged with Genjutsu: Sharingan? For example Demonic Illusion: Burning Paper Body.

I mean, if we start creating articles for all the generic Sharingan genjutsus that lacks a canonical name, then we will have to make one for Kakashi's Sharingan genjutsu he used on Zabuza, and the one he used on Root members. We will also need an article for the one Sasuke used on Deidara. In fact, that one, seeing that it was used twice, would definitely need an article if we're going to leave the other generic Sharingan genjutsus.

I posted this suggestion as well in Demonic Illusion: Burning Paper Body talkpage.

NoJutsu (talk) 06:13, May 10, 2012 (UTC)

Also Susanoo Genjutsu. Skitts (talk) 06:24, May 10, 2012 (UTC)

Alright then, it's decided. Can someone get unto it? We could do it the same way Susanoo has subsection for different versions of Susanoo. The non-canonical names can go as subsections under Genjutsu: Sharingan.

NoJutsu (talk) 07:11, May 10, 2012 (UTC)

I support merging generic Sharingan genjutsu in this page. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:22, May 11, 2012 (UTC)

Yep, it will clear out space from their infobox ... generally a cleanup of these techniques with fanmade name should be made --Elveonora (talk) 02:51, May 11, 2012 (UTC)

I support this 100% Arrancar79 (talk) 02:12, May 12, 2012 (UTC)

User
How are the user of this Jutsu decided? I only know Sasuke's and Kakashi's use of this. What about the others? When did they use it/generic Genjutsu? Seelentau 愛議 11:47, May 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * And also Itachi ^_^ --S@lil Uchiha Symbol.svg (T@lk) 12:01, May 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * Itachi would've used this when he used Demonic Illusion: Burning Paper Body on Kakashi, not sure why Tobi and Madara are listed, unless controlling Kurama is being counted as generic genjutsu. TricksterKing (talk) 12:07, May 11, 2012 (UTC)

madara used to control kurama and to paralyse that 4th divison shinobi. tobi used it to extract info on nagatos whereabouts from konan as well as to keep torune and foo unconcious inside his pocket dimension. and itachi supposedly used it to preform that demonic illusin burning paper body technique.98.26.240.179 (talk) 12:10, May 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * To our knowledge, Genjutsu isn't used to control Kurama. It's a power granted by the Mangekyō Sharingan. Madara used to a induce temporary paralysis on a guy in battle. Skitts (talk) 13:46, May 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * The MS was never used to control the Nine Tails. Seelentau 愛議 17:56, May 11, 2012 (UTC)

Lol, of course it's a genjutsu controlling the Tailed Beasts ... --Elveonora (talk) 20:52, May 11, 2012 (UTC)

tobi used a normal sharingan to control kurama it was also said that he manipulated yagura using genjutsu most likley sharingan based genjutsu.98.26.240.179 (talk) 01:56, May 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * Okay. And why are those named techniques related to this, but not Izanagi (for example)? Seelentau 愛議 10:22, May 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Since I was the one that did it I should answer me guesses. I added shackling stakes and the mirror heaved and earth change because of the "generic" sort of effects they produce as opposed to the "hype" O.o put behind Izanagi and Izanami being two of the ultimate techniques of the clan and being kinjutsu as well. The effects of those vs. the other two named ones don't seem so "generic".--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 18:42, May 15, 2012 (UTC)

@Cerez, I would remove Demonic Illusion: Shackling Stakes Technique and Demonic Illusion: Mirror Heaven and Earth Change since effects of both are not generic and both have an databook entry.--Elveonora (talk) 18:48, May 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * They do. But that doesn't mean that the Sharingan genjutsu isn't the parent technique. I should have probably not said that the effects were generic but that the techniques seemed to be. The Demonic Illusion: Shackling Stakes Technique even states that it requires the Sharingan and direct eye contact and the Demonic Illusion: Mirror Heaven and Earth Change technique states that it requires the use of the Sharingan's power.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 18:54, May 15, 2012 (UTC)

Oh, by generic I thought you meant just some random genjutsu--Elveonora (talk) 18:58, May 15, 2012 (UTC)

Techniques that were given a name/data book article should not be included here. O.o Really only things like Susanoo Genjutsu, Burning Paper Body and Madara's genjutsu paralysis should be. You know, actual generic illusions. Skitts (talk) 03:02, May 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * I meant generic in the sense that these were common place genjutsu for the Uchiha and outside of those revered like Kotoamatsukami and the kinjutsu and such, these were the run-of-the-mill kinda techniques they used sorta like the Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 11:35, May 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * So should Tobi controlling Kurama be counted as this, since it's implied that such a feat is rare to the point that nobody believed that anyone but Madara was capable of it. TricksterKing (talk) 11:49, May 17, 2012 (UTC)

i'd say so.98.26.240.179 (talk) 11:53, May 17, 2012 (UTC)yomiko-chan
 * Given that we're (well I'm) still unclear on whether or not Tobi&/Madara used the Sharingan or Mangekyō Sharingan to control Kurama in those instances, I wouldn't chalk that up to this technique. It'd seem odd-put to do so any way.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 12:05, May 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * So should Tobi be removed from the list of users, since none of his genjutsu have actually had the effects shown from the user's perspective? TricksterKing (talk) 12:22, May 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Tobi kept Fū and Torune under genjutsu for a while until he had Kabuto demonstrate Impure World Reincarnation with them. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:03, May 18, 2012 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, I'd forgotten about them. TricksterKing (talk) 03:10, May 18, 2012 (UTC)

The rotation
Do you know about the rotation of the Tomoe around the middle? It isn't shown often, but would you say that it is a sign of the generic Genjutsu being used? Seelentau 愛議 15:34, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

Not always, the rotation is shown during "hypnosis" or something --Elveonora (talk) 16:38, May 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * Isn't that just what a Genjutsu is? Seelentau 愛議 19:16, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

It falls under the category of genjutsu ... but it's not an illusion but more like mind-control "_"--Elveonora (talk) 19:17, May 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * So I'm right. When a Genjutsu is used (with whatever purpose), the Tomoe are spinning sometimes. Seelentau 愛議 19:54, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

Yes. Likely the motion of spinning creates the genjutsu --Elveonora (talk) 20:33, May 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * That's what I was getting at, yes. Should we add it? Seelentau 愛議 22:10, May 24, 2012 (UTC)
 * It's possible that it's just used to draw attention to the sharingan to establish eye contact with the victim. TricksterKing (talk) 23:16, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

Sasuke
Didn't sasuke do it here ? exept he used mangekyō sharingan --Ryanheartsthedarkness (talk) 14:31, July 8, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yeah, he did.--72.252.230.85 (talk) 14:46, July 8, 2012 (UTC)

In that case shouldn't we change the info to that it can be used with the sharingan and the mangekyō sharingan? --86.166.27.205 (talk) 12:59, July 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * It was mentioned before but it was removed because it was a bit redundant I think because all the abilities of the Sharingan are accessible by its evolutionary form.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 13:03, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

yeah your right! maybe that's how madara can use susano'o with the rinnegan activated..your aweshume cerez! x --86.166.27.205 (talk) 13:53, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

So should we list mangekyō sharingan in the info box? --86.166.27.205 (talk) 13:54, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

Would this be "Genjutsu: Sharingan"? --86.166.27.205 (talk) 13:59, July 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * That might be Tsukuyomi. Also no need to add MS because Sharingan is there.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:25, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

Understood sir! lol x --86.166.27.205 (talk) 14:37, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

Called me sir =$ Lol x --Cerez 365 ™(talk) 14:40, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

Against Killer B it was a Tsukuyomi for sure, he turned on MS to use it and it put strain on his eye, not to mention the colours, effects and all--Elveonora (talk) 15:59, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

lolx--86.166.27.205 (talk) 17:04, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

Shouldn't we use the picture of sasuke's tsukuyomi againts killer b on tsukuyomi page like as a slide show? x --86.166.27.205 (talk) 17:07, July 9, 2012 (UTC)

Not to bring up that tired old debate again, but perhaps we should leave the issue of Sasuke using Tsukuyomi somewhat vague until a databook elaborates on it?--BeyondRed (talk) 03:41, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree. Doesn't make sense we dredge it up and start another lengthy discussion that won't lead anywhere until we get more information.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 10:28, July 10, 2012 (UTC)

File:Sasu_Tsuku_MangaAnime.JPG (Manga and Anime).

Hi guys, yeah there is really no need to bring that old discussion ^_^. I also got confused when Sasuke used it. We can write a trivia or something like that. In the manga it's seemed to me that's really a Tsukuyomi. Maybe in the anime they got misked, changed it or it's an error like other naruto's episodes and techniques, right? Should we write a trivia here or on the Tsukuyomi's page and the anime and manga differences? THANKYOU Small brother (talk) 18:00, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

There is also Itachi's version. THANKYOU Small brother (talk) 19:02, October 17, 2012 (UTC)

File:Burning_Paper_Body_MangaAnime.PNG (Manga and Anime).


 * As revealed by Madara in the latest chapter a genjutsu starts out as a blank piece of papper and have no permanent shape or form or context, all up to the user. The only thing that defines Tsukyomi is the strenght of it and the mental damage is cause not to mention how it is almoust impossible to break as said by Itachi himself. --Gojita (talk) 20:33, October 17, 2012 (UTC)Gojita

Yeah, you maybe right sensei. But i think we can say that if the techniques i mentioned before are on the same style. For example, if Itachi's version in the manga has used a Tsukuyomi background, or Sasuke's version in the anime has also used a Tsukuyomi background, then we can say what you sensei mention before though it will still a confused issue/case. I'm not saying you're wrong of course sensei, i just say my opinion. What do you think? ^_^ THANKYOU Small brother (talk) 13:18, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Sasuke used Tsukuyomi, end of forum--Elveonora (talk) 23:01, October 19, 2012 (UTC)

Short Range?
Genjutsu Sharingan is marked as a short range technique. First of all, there is no mention of this in the text of the article; only in the infobox. Secondly, where does this information come from?--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 16:34, November 30, 2012 (UTC)

Unlike other genjutsu techniques that are translated through other mediums or directly on a target through the will of the user, this one requires direct eye contact, which is pretty much impossible to establish at any sizable distance. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 17:12, November 30, 2012 (UTC)

Izuna
Didn't Madara's brother use this in the latest episode when confronting Tobirama?--JOA20 (talk) 16:04, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah he did. If it's not yet added to the infobox, it should be. --SuperSajuuk Talk Page 16:08, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * The reason I wrote here was because someone had already tried to add him, but Seelentau apparently stated it was not this jutsu. I'd like to know his reasons before proceeding.--JOA20 (talk) 16:09, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, he didn't use it but would have if Tobirama didn't close his eyes--Elveonora (talk) 16:16, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * There was this one moment when Izuna looked into Tobirama's eyes with his Sharingan and the Senju was seemingly paralised for a second, wasn't there?--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg JOA20 16:19, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * What JOA20 said. Izuna used his Sharingan and Tobirama was paralyzed, then kicked/punched backwards. Obviously being hit with a mild genjutsu to paralyze him. Tobirama did not close his eyes. --SuperSajuuk Talk Page 16:20, July 11, 2014 (UTC)

I understood it as that he only protected himself from the genjutsu by closing his eyes but wasn't affected. If he was, he wouldn't have cast the water dragon afterwards.--Elveonora (talk) 16:23, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * wtf, of course he closed his eyes. Izuna activated his Sharingan, Tobirama saw it and immediately closed his eyes, enabling Izuna to punch him. There was no Genjutsu used at all. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:10, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Indeed there wasn't, but Izuna planned to use it, otherwise Tobirama wouldn't have closed his eyes. And when we know x character can use y, we list him/her--Elveonora (talk) 19:32, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Let's add every Uchiha then, because we all know they can use it, since it's the simplest Genjutsu available and they all have the 3T Sharingan. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:50, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * If you insist :P--Elveonora (talk) 20:46, July 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * I do. I also insist on adding Obito to the users of Susanoo, since he mastered both eyes which is the only requirement for Susanoo. Since we apparently add every possible user, we should add him, too. Oh, and while we're at it, Izuna mastered both eyes, too. So he can use Susanoo, too. • Seelentau 愛 議 10:53, July 17, 2014 (UTC)

All I am going to say is this. If Tobirama avoided making eye-contact with Izuna when he activated his Sharingan, that is good ground to assume he can at least use Genjutsu: Sharingan. But I can see how it is a bit suggestive since for all we know, he was going to use something like Tsukuyomi, Kotoamatsumaki, or Demonic Illusion: Shackling Stakes. Steveo920, 7:50, July 17, 2014
 * @Seel, 0/10 try again :P @Stevie, he activated Sharingan not Mangekyou --Elveonora (talk) 13:26, July 17, 2014 (UTC)

Okay my bad. I'm just saying we don't know for sure what kind of technique Izuna was attempting. Steveo920, 9:32, July 17, 2014

Elve, if we go by the logic you presented, my proposed actions would be the logical follow-up. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:33, July 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * The Susanoo stuff is still shady. I insist that both Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are needed for it. Also even if they aren't, Obito has just 1 technique in both eyes - Kamui, not 2 eye powers, so he can't use Susanoo. For Izuna, we know nothing of his Mangekyou--Elveonora (talk) 13:36, July 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's not about the different techniques, it's about the mastery of the eye. All of them mastered both eyes, even if they had only one technique they could use with both eyes (Shisui, Obito) or none known techniques (Izuna). • Seelentau 愛 議 13:49, July 17, 2014 (UTC)

He didn't use it, so we cant say he did. We can assume he wanted to but we cant say for sure. If he has said "genjutsu" but Tobirama closed his eyes then sure, but it can't be properly referenced the way it was done in the episode.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 14:06, July 17, 2014 (UTC)

That's what I was trying to say. My bad in suggesting Mangekyo techniques, but like Cerez365, I am pointing out that while Sharingans generically have genjutsu abilities, we don't know which one Izuna even attempted to use. It could have been the basic form or a more conventional one like Shackling Stakes for all we know.Steveo920, 10:12, July 17, 2014

@Cerez, seriously? ... there's a thing such as reading context. @Stevie, genjutsu: Sharingan is parent for the specialized forms as well--Elveonora (talk) 14:22, July 17, 2014 (UTC)

Technically, one able to use a technique derived from another doesn't mean they can use the original. Madara can use an advanced version of the Great Dragon Fire Technique but is not listed as able to use the said technique. Steveo920 10:32, July 17, 2014

Personally, I'm okay either way with the final decision on Izuna's usage since its not a defining trait about him. I'm just giving my two cents about it. Steveo920, 10:33, July 17, 2014

Genjutsu: Sharingan
Madara, more accurately his wood clone, used his Mangekyo to cast a paralyzing illusion on A so shouldn't we have a Genjutsu: Mangekyo Sharingan page?Cloudtheavenger (talk) 19:03, May 2, 2015 (UTC) PS Seelentau that was with his Mangekyo not regular Sharingan.
 * So what if it was still with his Mangekyo? A user can still use regular Sharingan techniques through his/her Mangekyo Sharingan, no? 19:09, May 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, Windy.--Omojuze (talk) 19:14, May 2, 2015 (UTC)


 * What he uses is something identical to Mangekyō Sharingan (jutsu), which is essentially the Genjutsu: Sharingan. --Lukas Pessoa Dantas (talk) 19:20, May 2, 2015 (UTC)
 * AH, I get you. Plus I just remembered Sasuke used his Genjutsu: Sharingan with the Mangekyo.Cloudtheavenger (talk) 19:38, May 2, 2015 (UTC)

Genjutsu: Mangekyō Sharingan
During Killer B's and Sasuke fight, when B charged him, Sasuke activated his MS to trap him in genjutsu. It makes no sense for Sasuke to activate his MS (while his Sharigan were already activated) just to use this technique, unless it was a MS genjustu no? --Sarutobii2 (talk) 14:39, September 12, 2015 (UTC)
 * Hence why there was a group of "Sasuke has Tsukuyomi" fans.--Elve Talk Page 15:03, September 12, 2015 (UTC)
 * So why has nothing been done about it? If Sasuke isn't a user of Tsukuyomi, he's a user of this unnamed MS genjustu. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 17:08, September 12, 2015 (UTC)
 * Maybe because it's too similar to this one, but the same could be said about Genjutsu: Rinnegan.--Omojuze (talk) 17:12, September 12, 2015 (UTC)
 * Itachi did the exact same thing to Mecha Naruto. It makes no sense for him to activate his MS while already having his sharingan activated, knowing that it would worsen his blindness. Genjutsu: Mangekyō Sharingan is as much of a thing as Genjutsu: Rinnegan. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 17:43, September 12, 2015 (UTC)
 * Then go ahead and create it, buddy :D If anyone opposes, link 'em here. --Omojuze (talk) 17:56, September 12, 2015 (UTC)
 * I support the creation of the Genjutsu: Mangekyō Sharingan page as Itachi used it before using Tsukuyomi on Kakashi. From what I remembered Itachi used Tsukuyomi because Kakashi was able to stand up to Genjutsu: Mangekyō Sharingan.--Narutofox94 (talk) 18:19, September 12, 2015 (UTC)

Infobox Icon
Since we merged 3 Articles shouldnt be the Mangekyou and Rinnegan Icon next to the sharingan one?--Keeptfighting (talk) 13:16, September 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * We don't with all Mangekyou techniques utilised through the Rinnegan, but pretty sure we should add the Mangekyou since it was needed to cast a particular genjutsu on 2 occasions. --Bio havik (talk) 13:22, September 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't think whe shoud do that, since this is the basic genjutsu ability of the Sharingan. The Mangekyo Sharingan retains it, it's usable through the MS, but it's still this technique. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:41, September 18, 2015 (UTC)

Err....
That... was quite the clean up the article just went through. Now it seems we're back to where we started with only the "Genjutsu: Sharingan" page and no "Genjutsu: Mangekyō Sharingan" page (and now no "Genjutsu: Rinnegan" page), and the G: MS and G: R techniques have been reduced to mentions on this article (no images, nothing)... not to mention they don't even redirect to this page atm... 21:57, September 27, 2015 (UTC)


 * re: clean up - There were five separate mentions of the genjutsu being used to control somebody. Isn't that excessive?
 * re: "back where we started" - The starting point was four separate mentions of the genjutsu being used to control somebody. Now there's only one. That sounds like somewhere other than where we were.
 * re: mentions only - The "variants" were failing to distinguish themselves from the base genjutsu yet were still trying to make some claim to uniqueness.
 * re: no images - They were pictures of the eye, and the eye using genjutsu looks the same as the eye not using genjutsu.
 * re: redirects - They "variants" are never named, and the wiki isn't in the habit of preserving fan names.
 * ~SnapperTo 22:41, September 27, 2015 (UTC)
 * So even though everyone was fine with the mergers, you didn't and now here we are. How was anything under the MS redundant when its seemingly another technique? And trivia points about things like genjutsu working on mecha naruto and through Kushina onto Kurama, they aren't mentioned at all? --Sarutobii2 (talk) 01:21, September 28, 2015 (UTC)
 * re: "fine with mergers" - I'm fine with the mergers. If I wasn't fine with them, I'd have recreated the articles, wouldn't I? I think you're misunderstanding what a merger is. A merger is not copying and pasting one article into another, which is what the previous version was.
 * re: "another technique" - But it isn't. Did you read the old version? There was nothing under either "variant"'s heading that's new. Literally everything was mentioned earlier in the article, sometimes twice.
 * re: Mecha-Naruto - Genjutsu?
 * ~SnapperTo 01:59, September 28, 2015 (UTC)
 * My point was no one but you had an issue with the way it was after the merger. The MS variant is a new technique because it required the activation of the MS, something that Genjutsu: Sharingan doesn't need. And both effects of the techniques were unique, as iv'e never seen a sharingan impale someone with feathers or what Itachi did to Mecha Naruto. And so what if a bit of trivia is in 2 different articles? Its not gonna kill anyone because its relevant here. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 02:16, September 28, 2015 (UTC)
 * The visual effect of an illusion is, at the end of the day, meaningless. The result is what matters. Having sections dedicated to Mangekyo Genjutsu and Rinne Genjutsu when it could be mentioned in a sentence is enough.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 11:21, September 28, 2015 (UTC)
 * But these are two different techniques, after Sasuke activated his Mangekyou to put Killer B in a Genjutsu his Eye hurted, like it did when he used Amaterasu. So it damaged his Eyesight, why would you do this when its possible to use with the normal Sharingan?--Keeptfighting (talk) 14:07, September 28, 2015 (UTC)

Because an upgraded version of the Sharingan: Genjutsu, using the Mangekyo does more damage to his eye but is more powerful?--TheUltimate3 (talk) 14:10, September 28, 2015 (UTC)

Range
It is a short range but didnt Shisui used it on long range?--Keeptfighting (talk) 12:30, November 11, 2015 (UTC)