Talk:Madara Uchiha

SPECULATION WILL BE REMOVED

Kabuto didn't enhance Madara's power
Chapter 601 has provided an effective explanation of what Kabuto meant by "resurrecting Madara beyond his prime". We saw that Madara was elderly, much more so than the likes of Danzo, Hiruzen or the elders. Like 85+ years old. And still, he was resurrected in his youthful form. That's what Kabuto's experimentation was about. He managed to revive Madara with all the power he has amassed right until his death, yet in a youthful body. That's what makes him "complete beyond his prime". It's not like Kabuto added any powers to Madara, he just made him young again (Madara himself said very much the same thing). I thereby suggest to reword all the instances suggesting that Kabuto's experimentation made Madara more powerful. It should be stated more as that it brought him back in his youthful body but with all the powers he had acquired until his old age, inclusive. Xfing (talk) 19:15, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

No, reviving his into his prime = making him young again. "Beyond his prime" = stronger than in his youth.--Elveonora (talk) 21:24, September 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * That's what I said. He's revived into his prime age-wise, but has powers exceeding it, like the Rinnegan he awakened shortly before his death. So what Kabuto did is just revive Madara young with all the powers he amassed into old age. This doesn't mean for example that the Hashirama face on Madara's chest is an effect of Kabuto's work like the article suggests. Xfing (talk) 21:21, September 16, 2012 (UTC)

Can I please add that it never said the old guy with the sharingan madara? For all we know it could be a random old uchiha who introduced him to madara for all we know... Speculation... 166.147.89.161 (talk) 03:56, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

-_- it looks exactly like Madara but old so there is no way it is anybody else... and Elveonora is right from what I see. 173.66.119.89 (talk) 09:41, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

People ****ing need to learn some reading comprehension or/and check their eyes, ur like 100th person with "who was that old guy?" doubt and question. It looks like old Madara, and the flashback happened after Kakashi asked Obito why did he join him.--Elveonora (talk) 15:40, September 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * There is no need to go off on people like that. Not everyone will be as quick on the uptake as you are. When I first saw the face, for a moment I thought Nagato was back... People will get things wrong sometimes--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:57, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, of course not everyone is a fast-thinker ... but when dozens of people don't get it, there's something wrong. I have seen people stating absurdities about things in a chapter that weren't even there, like slime coming from Obito's arm, while that was a piece of clothing etc. Since the flashback was in response to a question about Madara, the old dude there was obviously him. And lol Cerez, since when was Nagato that old back then and with a Sharingan? :) They just look very alike (in before adopted son/clone theories)--Elveonora (talk) 17:00, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

Guys, back on topic. I will try to explain my reasoning. This is all based on facts, there's little if any speculation involved. Kabuto said that Madara has been restored beyond his prime. "Prime" can be considered as the pinnacle of power as well as young age. Let's look at what Madara had in life.

[+] - he had it [-] - he lacked it

Prime Madara: [+] EMS [+] Young Age [-] Hashirama Tissue/Wood Release [-] Rinnegan

Older Madara [+] EMS [+] Hashirama Tissue/Wood Release [+] Rinnegan - progressed from EMS in conjunction with Senju DNA

Super Old Madara [-] Rinnegan - he gave it away to Nagato [-] Young Age [+] Hashirama Tissue/Wood Release - actually he'd probably been experimenting with that shit ever since the battle at VotE. He already had the flower tree grown etc.

Now what Kabuto meant by enhancing Madara is the following: 1) he resurrected him in his prime, age-wise, (normal Edo would have revived him an old man), while at the same time having access to powers he unlocked way later in life, i.e. past his prime. Like the Wood Release he got only after VotE and working with Hashirama tissue. 2) he resurrected him with his peak abilities intact, that is assuming that Hashirama really did fuck him up after the battle at VotE. And I think he really did, if he hadn't, then why didn't Madara start wreaking havoc again right after he healed up? He probably really did become the shell of his former self, and normal Edo Tensei would have revived him as such. I admit that this point is speculative, though, so it can be skipped. 3) he resurrected him with his original pair of eyes (that is the Rinnegan), even though Madara lacked these eyes at the time of his death. Normal Edo would have resurrected him with that single little left Sharingan replacement instead.

That's what Kabuto meant by saying Madara was completed beyond his prime. He indeed was - he was young and yet possessed abilities he never had in his youth (not until after the VotE battle, at least). that's why he was "enhanced beyond his prime". '''It's erroneous, though, to think that Kabuto created any of these abilities, as Madara did it himself. He even said so.''' Kabuto merely took them all and put them in the right place - that is, the young body of Madara.

Edo Madara: [+] Young Age [+] EMS [+] Hashirama Tissue/Wood Release [+] Rinnegan

Not to mention the Edo Tensei perks. Now compare this to Prime Madara and see why this one's better. Xfing (talk) 15:59, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

Susanoo ?
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/File:Madara%27s_chakra_and_gunbai.jpg is that some kind of susanoo ? or just his chakra being chanelled through the gunbai and shaped into a wall against the outer path's spears ?--201.1.21.80 (talk) 11:18, September 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Going with the former.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 11:19, September 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Gonna have to disagree there. The chakra begins being channeled immediately when Madara grabs his gunbai. In the next panel, when the shield actually appears, he is see holding his gunbai in a defensive position, whereas when he received it, he was just holding out beside him. There is some significance with that. Furthermore, in the panels following that one, when the barrier flares up, its just that, a barrier. There are no bones and none of the typical formations of Susanoo. Thirdly, Susanoo has never been formed into a wall before. We have seen Madara extensively use his Susanoo in earlier battles and have seen both Itachi and Sasuke make liberal use of their Susanoo, and in none of its three incarnations has it shown to be A) just chakra manifesting without any skeletal structure and B) forming into a wall-like structure. This is obviously coming from the gunbai and is some kind of barrier technique. I doubt it is the Uchiha Flame Battle Encampment, but it is clear that it is coming from the gunbai and that it is not Susanoo. I'll make a page for it, but if anyone disagrees with me, just have it deleted. The evidence is sufficient to suggest in favor of this argument though. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 03:55, September 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * EDIT: Not to mention, seen here the sheild Madara creates covers himself AND Obito as well as the aura around just their bodies. Susanoo only covers one person at a time. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 04:00, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

It looks like Susanoo. Arrancar79 (talk) 04:46, September 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes and the Uchiha Flame Battle Encampment looks like the Four Violet Flames Battle Encampment. The point is, numerous techniques are virtual look alikes in terms of how they are colored and appeared, but just because an attack is colored like Susanoo doesn't make it Susanoo. Like I said, there are no bones, there is no nothing that would indicate Susanoo. Nothing at all. Not even a small fragment. Even the way it used is fundamentally different from Susanoo. In all instances of Susanoo being used for defense, the user at least manifests the ribcage. Using a wall has never happened. Nor has a Susanoo ever covered two people at once in its aura in just its initial state (or any stage for that matter, while all three panels clearly show it covering both Obito and Madara. That alone is enough evidence it isn't Susanoo. Furthermore, the chakra is literally shown covering just the gunbai the page after the barrier is used. The gunbai was placed in a defensive position before the barrier manifested. The gunbai is clearly the source of the barrier. Not Madara. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 04:58, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Wind nature or Return of Uchiha?
As we never saw what Madara did in the AMV from the game exactly, would it be less speculative to think it was RoU or was the anime only wind nature from something else I missed? Arrancar79 (talk) 04:19, September 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Personally, I have the game and have seen the cut scene for myself, and its pretty obvious what happened. There's a gust of wind knocking back a large amount of ninja, followed by the scene cutting to Madara with his gunbai. Though he is not seen in the action of swinging the fan, you have to use common sense here to deduce who is using it. So yes, his usage of the fan to produce wind gusts in the OVA is considered anime usage. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 05:03, September 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * I have the game myself and have watched the scene many times. I wasn't questioning who used it but questioning what happened. He was attacked then we see his attackers blown back accompanied by a disturbance of the air and flattened grass. It was not much of a stretch then to guess what happened but knowing what we know now I believe it is more responsible to attribute it to a use of Return of Uchiha. Unless RoU is stated to have a Wind nature it should be removed till he's seen using a Wind jutsu IMO. Arrancar79 (talk) 23:40, September 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * I've seen the video of those scenes at youtube, and it was pretty clear for me that he made a gust of wind with his gunbai, the likes of which only makes sense through the use of Wind Release. I wouldn't say Uchiha Return is a Wind Release, but it should still be there as long as those scenes are considered anime. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:53, September 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * I have to disagree. It's speculative to continue citing Madara as having a Chakra nature based on so little. He's never used a wind technique and we now see he has the ability to redirect force/jutsu with his war fan. Arrancar79 (talk) 00:15, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * What are you suggesting them? To consider the thing he did in the ova as Uchiha Return? It didn't seem like a defensive move to me, it seemed quite offensive. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:57, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes that's what I'm suggesting. I don't see a difference in how he used it against Naruto rushing him and the group be knocked away. Arrancar79 (talk) 02:11, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Against Naruto, he turned the force of his own attack against him. I don't recall any attack being directed at Madara for him to reflect at any opponent, there might have been some shinobing running towards him, but it was Madara who made the first attack. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:18, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * They were both attacking. He swung his fan as they lept at him. Return of Uchiha is a reasonable explanation for what happened, more so than than to attribute a new elemental nature to him and an un-named wind technique IMO. Arrancar79 (talk) 02:43, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Just watched the video at youtube again. I guess it could be Uchiha Return, but I find it very odd that the force of reflecting taijutsu and maybe a few blades would cause so much of the vegetation at his feet to bend. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:54, September 15, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry didn't see this when I reverted. I don't believe that the techniques I saw in the ova fight and the one in the manga are the same. They're repelling entirely different things and I'd feel much more comfortable listing him as having Wind Release as opposed to saying it was this technique. Cerez 365 ™(talk) 12:30, September 15, 2012 (UTC)

I'm for the Wind Release being kept (there's anime only for a purpose so people know it's not canon) because by your suggestion, it would be much more confusing and shitting on canon as at the time the scene was animated, Return of the Uchiha wasn't yet revealed in the manga so the animators had no idea such things exists--Elveonora (talk) 21:39, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * I can accept the wind nature but it wouldn't be the first thing to show up in Anime first and then manga. If I remember right, Kishi was involved in those scenes as well but maybe not, either way I digress. :) Arrancar79 (talk) 09:07, September 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Kishimoto was not involved in those scenes, any at all. If what was done in the OVA and the manga are supposed to be the same, then that would mean that all those people Madara blew away jumped on his gunbai and all those weapons did so as well. I was thinking about it and Madara waited for Naruto to make contact with the gunbai before using the technique instead of just blowing him out of the air. Which is why I doubt those two instances are the same.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 10:04, September 16, 2012 (UTC)

Picture
I know this was discussed before, but this really bugs me. Isn't there an adequate and "colored" (the current one is colored but is b&W) picture to put in the infobox?--Holyn (talk) 18:08, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * There is not. At least not to my knowledge.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 10:07, September 16, 2012 (UTC)

Abilities contradiction
I noticed a contradiction in the Abilities section. There is on part that says "After activating his Rinnegan and using it in conjunction with his Susanoo", yet in the Rinnegan heading it states "However, it sould be noted that while using the powers granted by one dōjustu he cannot simultaneously access those granted by another." So can he use both the Rinnegan and Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan at the same time or no?

the latter line is 100% speculative and should be removed... he uses Susanoo with Rinnegan all the time, and it's logical that in order to use Rinnegan powers, he has to activate it, just like a Sharingan can't use MS powers--Elveonora (talk) 18:46, September 16, 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't change the fact that after having the Rinnegan activated, he had to switch to EMS to cast genjutsu at the Raikage. At least some abilities are restrained to each dōjutsu. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:06, September 16, 2012 (UTC)

Alrighty that clears things up a little Konoha&#39;sBlackXandXWhiteFlash (talk) 02:13, September 17, 2012 (UTC)

Madara gave Nagato
Madara gave Nagato his eyes when Nagato was a kid... So Nagato Possess's the Sharingan and Eternal Mangekyo too. 173.66.119.89 (talk) 07:21, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * We don't know how it works. From everything we've seen, Nagato only has access to the Rinnegan.--210.56.81.34 (talk) 09:33, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree with the former. At least wait for the rest of the story.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 09:52, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

Or he just never used it on panel... he probably used it to use genjutsu such as on those ame ninja he put extremely powerful genjutsu blocks in. we don't know either way. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 10:22, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Things like ^that is exactly why we should wait. We don't have to be piecing anything together, Kishimoto is telling us the story, for now, we make mention what was said in the manga and leave it at that...--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 10:30, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

Didn't Madara say he left his real eyes with someone else? When Obito was posing as him he told Konan "I gave Nagato the Rinnegan." That's evidence enough, IMO. And as for Nagato not possessing the Sharingan, Kakashi can't shut his Sharingan off because he's not an Uchiha, so it stands to reason Nagato can't shut the Rinnegan off either. At least this chapter confirms Madara created Zetsu. 207.216.193.120 (talk) 12:29, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

why, any user can't wait for a few more weeks to get more Information? --MaskedManMadara (talk) 16:51, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

Loss of power
What proof has their been that Madara had lost any of his powers in his old age. Chapter 602 points more to not being able to use them due to not having two Sharingan and because of dwindled chakra reserves rather than actually having lost them. What Tobi has never been proven. It was just his statement and was probably something he said to make his story about being Madara and resorting to that method sound believable. But there has never been any proof backing him up. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 17:50, September 19, 2012 (UTC))
 * That statement was already changed...--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk)18:01, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I just saw. Sorry. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 18:08, September 19, 2012 (UTC))

Nagato
Madara said he entrusted his eyes to someone else!!!!!!! Could it be nagato? I mean, it's all there. He said he awakened his Rinnegan shortly before his death, and gave it to nagato. Someone please comment, or at least say it's likely.--24.166.174.117 (talk) 20:24, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * . -- The Goblin  20:30, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

Gedo Mazo life support system beginning
Why should we say in Madara's article that he was on the Gedo Mazo from the time he sustained the injuries in the last fight with Hashirama until he died when he himself has not said he was and we don't know that he was? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 22:46, September 20, 2012 (UTC))
 * The "Mazou" that he mentions isn't the Gedo Mazo, but Hashirama's Living Clone and that term (mazou) means statue --MaskedManMadara (talk) 18:25, September 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * The Mazō is there in the image of him announcing himself to Obito. You have to strain your eyes because of the scans but the statue is there sitting in the yet-to-be fully-opened flower. If Madara had meant Hashirama's Living Clone he would have referred to it as what he did when he told Obito that he had used it to reconstruct his body; that clone isn't a statue.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 18:31, September 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * oh, yeah? I don't know it, I think it to be a statue O_O. but thanks Cerez365, is more things that I know now. MaskedManMadara (talk) 18:48, September 21, 2012 (UTC)

Why does it say that his injuries from his last fight with Hashirama caused him to have to be on the statue from that point till death when that can't be? He'd need the Rinnegan, which he didn't have then, to summon it and make use of that chakra and he himself didn't say he had been on the Mazo since that last fight. Why should the article say that as though it were a fact that he was? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 23:32, September 21, 2012 (UTC))

That's a speculation and should be removed... not to mention that would make it more than 40 years he was trapped underground.--Elveonora (talk) 23:48, September 21, 2012 (UTC)

He could'nt have been on the mazou life support (oh i love to say that) from Hashirama's victory t'ill Obito wound up in his underground passageway. Because he would have needed to give that "person" (most likely Nagato) his eyes (most likely the rinnegan), and he was alive for decades and decades after his suppossed defeat, so i'd think that he was incredibley old by that point.98.26.240.62 (talk) 00:02, September 22, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan

No man. Madara walked away from the fight and then lived a healthy and happy life. Sewed some wild oats (hence we have Nagato and Rasputia Uchiha) and then contracted cancer in his old age. What we saw there was just chemotherapy with primitive machinery... That's definitely what happened.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 11:50, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

Why that sarcasm? Read above, in the case he was there since Hashirama "defeat" that would make it more than 40 years, not to mention he likely met Yahiko and Nagato.... hard to believe their meeting was underground--Elveonora (talk) 19:31, September 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * Because there's no other way to respond to this. Madara's article is being edited to say he went on live a long life, through three wars (because he participated in them ~_~) as if he got up from the fight with Hashirama and was fine and dandy, and then contracted a disease in his old age and had to go on life support which is rubbish. Tobi told us that the fight left him a shell of his former self not because he was making excuses for only using Kamui but because it did in fact leave him a shell; unless I'm reading another manga. I've said it before but nothing Tobi has said so far has been a lie. He's only ever omitted the truth. I understand that people love Madara but there's nothing to it but to accept the fact that Hashirama crippled him severely and he lived out the rest of his life in a hole.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:40, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

That's right, Obito never really lied. "I, Uchiha Madara" didn't have anything to do with Kurama attacking Konoha ;) Now you mention it, it's a possibility... could explain that "hell" and "ghost of Uchiha Madara" parts. He "lived" there since then and considered himself as dead. Poor Madara 0_0--Elveonora (talk) 15:09, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

The Fading into obscurity thing I put in there is there to say that he was never seen or heard from again. What I wrote is there to say he lived through them, not that he fought them. He did get stronger, shown in everything he has now for the sake of his Eye of the Moon plan. The reason he was on the Gedo when he was old isn't known. Could have been because he was too old and needed it, even with Hashirama's cells. He was was over 100 The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 15:13, September 23, 2012 (UTC))


 * editconflict If people consider Obito calling himself Madara simply a "lie" then they are reading the story too one dimensionally. I don't understand how people can think that someone could walk out of a fight unscathed in a battle that essentially created an entire valley and another nation.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:20, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

Not to mention we saw him pierced by a sword, and Hashirama barely survived with his "self-healing no jutsu" looked at it through Cerez's way, makes more sense (even if cruel, but this manga isn't about ponies) than him surviving, living happily after, manipulating from shadows for so long and then getting crippled--Elveonora (talk) 15:28, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

Nobody is saying he got out of the fight unscathed, just that it was never really proven that he was just a shell of his former self. His injuries and all were severe yes, but with the way he could treat Obito's wounds and save him with Hashirama's cells, is it really reasonable to think that he couldn't do the same to himself? Not to mention, he was nowhere near where he was when he was on the Gedo when he last fought Hashirama and lost. He may have been wounded terribly, but he got stronger. No one is saying it was easy. It was probably very hard and took him a very long time. Think also about the fact that he had Hashirama's cells and that they, given Tsunade's testament to Tobi's possession of them, Madara might haven been able to extend his life by harvesting them and allowing him to train and learn how to use his Wood Release like he can. The reason he needed to go on the Gedo is unexplained. It may have been because of dwindled chakra reserves or some kind of genetic malfunction with Hashirama's DNA that was making him weaker rather than helping him maintain his training and preparation for future plans. To state something we don't know as a fact, such as being a shell of his former self, and present it as a fact is speculation and unnecessary. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 15:38, September 23, 2012 (UTC))


 * All of that however, is speculation based on things that was never seen. What we do know:


 * Hashirama and Madara fought.
 * Madara lost.
 * Madara survived and became a shell of his former self.
 * Madara used that battle to gather the Firsts' cells.
 * Madara is attached to a giant statue covered in Zetsu's which were built with First cells.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:42, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

Madara did not become a shell of his former self as far as fact goes. We don't know that he did. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 19:35, September 23, 2012 (UTC))

But we work only with facts, we know these things: There's no incident in between, so unless more information is provided, Hashi battle made him what he was in chapter 602 --Elveonora (talk) 19:52, September 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * he got pierced by Hashirama's sword, and "died" not to mention he sure had many more wounds... how he survived is unknown now.
 * became a shell of his former self
 * gedo life support

Thats no fact. He didn't become a shell of his former self. Tobi said that, not him and it stands to reason that since he is weaker than Madara, which he factually admitted, then he say something like that to get others to believe what he said about being Madara was true. He himself has not stated that or in any way implied it. He was no shell of his former self factually because he only got stronger after losing at the Valley of the End, not weaker. Everything else you said was true, but that wasn't. Be realistic. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 21:39, September 23, 2012 (UTC))

Be realistic? This is a damn manga, you know right? You are speculating too much, your "sense and logic" aren't above information provided... you can't simply arrange it the way you want. What we know is listed, the end. EDIT: Itachi said the same about shell thing, also how is being connected to a flower in order to survive considered as getting stronger?--Elveonora (talk) 22:21, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

He wasn't connected to the Gedo for all those years after losing and Itachi, just like Nagato, knew Tobi and believed that he was Madara and Tobi is weaker than Madara. Hes admitted that. The reason he, not Madara, would probably have said such a thing was so others, like Itachi, Nagato, and the five Kage, would believe that thats who he was and why he would resort to a plan like that. Onoki questioned that himself. In everything that has been seen of Madara himself, nothing has said or shown that he became a shell of his former self after he lost that last battle with Hashirama. Thats a fact. I'm not speculating, you are. In all that we saw of Madara's past when Tobi was telling Sasuke about everything that happened with Madara, he did not mention, imply, or even contemplate to himself that Madara was just a shell of his former self. The fact that he made that statement to the five Kage without us seeing any proof it was true opens a possibility that what he said was just a lie to make his story sound believable. He spent all those decades training with the Wood Release and mastered it so powerfully. He was also able to awaken the Rinnegan. Whenever he did so, it was after that battle and therefore, he got stronger period after it. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 22:50, September 23, 2012 (UTC))


 * But here is the thing: Where do you assume this? Everything Tobi and Itachi has said about Madara was correct, based on what we have seen. You are just assuming he walked out of that battle and got god mode somehow. That is not how we were told, and not how we've seen.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 23:07, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

Correction, we have not seen that Madara was just a shell of his former self after losing that last battle and only most of what Tobi and Itachi said was shown to be true. Not everything. Saying he was just a shell of his former self after that battle when it was never shown that he was was just words. Nothing backing it up. The only thing we have seen about him losing to Hashirama is that he was severely wounded, which doesn't prove that was a shell of what he was before losing that battle, only that he lost and survived it. Neither Itachi nor Tobi's statements about that have been proven true. Thats a fact. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 23:30, September 23, 2012 (UTC))

It doesn't really make sense we argue out this point. It is true that we only know bits and pieces that have yet to be glued together of what happened after the battle at the valley of the end and Madara finding Obito, but I would however be really shocked if that battle and Madara's state aren't directly related. Any way, as long as the information remains how it is (or at least how I last remember it being) for now, it's enough for me.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 23:52, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

My point exactly Cerez. It has so far no been shown that he was a shell of his former self after losing that battle or that he was on that Mazo from the time he lost till he died. Next chapter may change some or all of that., but as it stands right now, none of that is fact. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 00:11, September 24, 2012 (UTC))

"awakened Rinnegan before death"
I'm pretty sure he wasn't referring to him dying after the 3rd SWW, but before being "killed" by Hashirama, as he considered himself to be dead afterwards. He gave his eyes to Nagato decades before, and had only a spare ordinary Sharingan by the time he met Obito. Not to mention he wouldn't have such mastery over it if it was by his old age. Should be reworded in my opinion--Elveonora (talk) 15:25, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

Madara came out and stated that he awakened it shortly before his death. Doubt that mean't decades and until he says what he meant about leaving his real eyes with someone else, we can only speculate that subject. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 15:51, September 23, 2012 (UTC))

It is impossible, at this point in time, to determine which "death" Madara was referring to. However, implications seem to be hinting it was the former...the one at the Valley of the End. There are two things supporting this, one of which is evidence: firstly, we have to consider the fact that Madara, having just been resurrected by Edo Tensei, would have had no idea how much his summoner knew with regards to his life. Thus, he would attempt to disclose the least amount of information possible. An example of this is found in chapter 561, where Madara asks Kabuto how much he knows: during the entirety of his explanation, he remains silent. It's obvious he isn't intent on revealing anything about his life and death. So why wouldn't he make a vague statement that can be interpreted in one of two ways, especially given the fact that Kabuto knows more than the average individual (his extra knowledge would actually be a detriment in this situation, as it only confuses the situation further)? To the rest of the world, Madara died at Hashirama's hand over 60 years ago. Why not continue to uphold that falsity? It wouldn't be in Madara's best interests to reveal conflicting information.

Secondly, Madara clearly says in chapter 602 that he left his real eyes to someone else. That "someone else" is obviously Nagato, and it is evidence against Madara's statement being a reference to his true death. I will explain why: at this point, Nagato having the Rinnegan is due to one of two reasons: either Madara transplanted his Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan into Nagato, whose Uzumaki blood caused the eyes to progress to their final stage, or Madara directly gave Nagato the Rinnegan, already having completed the last step with Hashirama's Senju DNA. Based off these two scenarios, it would be impossible for Madara to have awakened the Rinnegan (possibly again) before his real death because he would have needed a new EMS to get to that final stage. What are the odds of that happening? Infinitesimally low. Not just because of the difficulty of the procedure, but because Madara was missing a right eye in this latest chapter.

Now, you may be asking how Kabuto managed to modify Madara back to his prime form, with enhancements such as the Rinnegan, that he gave away years before dying (Edo Tensei supposedly works by resurrecting the person as they were moments before death): the truth is, I have no idea. There's obviously something bigger going on here. But at this stage in the game, it's not unlikely to think that Madara was talking about his "death" at VoTE, especially given his words this chapter: "ghost of the Uchiha." 68.119.138.242 (talk) 19:09, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

Not to mention that would make 2 pairs of Rinnegan eyes, obviously, besides Sage's, there has been only one other pair--Elveonora (talk) 19:20, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

Thats what I said as far as his death goes, however, it has yet to be  seen what he mean't and we can't be sure he mean't Nagato until chapter 603 is out. Only then can we know that as a fact. Also, just because he gave away his eyes, doesn't mean he lost the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan dojutsu, or the Rinnegan if he had awakened before giving his eyes away. Its a kekkei genkai. Its in his blood. His genetics and works through his eyes, not just within the eyes themselves. He also said he couldn't awaken the full potential of his eyes without two, which the full potential to him would be everything he achieved. Think about that. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 21:46, September 23, 2012 (UTC))

I don't see a reason to doubt that... these are facts:
 * Madara and Nagato knew each other
 * Tobi claimed that "I Madara" did give Nagato the Rinnegan
 * Madara assumes Nagato revived him with Rinne Tensei no jutsu
 * Madara confirms he gave his eyes to someone

The way it's worded now sounds like he produced 2 pairs of Rinnegan eyes in his lifetime, should be changed to: "Shortly before being presumed to have been killed by Hashirama in their final confrontation at a place later to be known as Valley of The End, Madara awakened his Rinnegan"--Elveonora (talk) 22:19, September 23, 2012 (UTC)

Indeed it should should it be revealed to have been that way in the next chapter when we hopefully find out for sure what he mean't. The Fox king(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 22:41, September 23, 2012 (UTC))

Second Rikudou
I thought it to be clear that Madara is such, not Obito. Everything Tobi/Obito did say under "I, Madara" has been under this guy's name and were his actions/deeds. Nagato's Rinnegan couldn't have given by Obito, clearly. Also Madara did awake Rinnegan, not Obito, thus the title belong to him--Elveonora (talk) 04:33, October 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think we're simply waiting for something more clear-cut than the "Tobi said it as Madara" bid.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 11:47, October 13, 2012 (UTC)