User talk:Omnibender/Elemental recomposition table

Laws of recomposition?
I think there should be certain standards of making theories, just so we can get a close guess or idea. First, I don't agree that much with Smoke or Light, which I have thought of before. Smoke is actually created while Fire is burning, and therefore is kind of inherent to it. Ice, Wood, Lava, Storm, Boil, and Dust were all new, different elements, and were not inherent to their components, even symbolically. Fire already produces Smoke, and both Fire and Lightning emit Light, which makes me doubt those two elements. Something that has the properties of both Fire and Wind, yet is unique from the two would make sense. It is still possible that the new nature would manipulate smoke, but it would have a different name for symbolic purposes. --GoDai (talk) 05:33, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm thinking of something comtaining the most improtant properties of Fire (heat/combustion) and Wind (pressure/cutting/grinding), and I imagine wind with a mirage-like look, which is superheated air that cuts through things. --GoDai (talk) 21:39, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Like Cloud Release? --Sennoman (talk) 13:04, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Cloud has more to do with water than fire. Smoke is the only thing I found which I believe fits the combo, other than the not-so-likely ash alternative. The reason I listed smoke is because while it can happen with fire alone, it happens much more when there is fire and it's being fanned. I already have radiation and plasma listed as alternatives for Fire and Lightning, I just put light as the main one because out of the three, it's the one I consider more of an element. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:58, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think he might have meant Cloud Release controlling clouds of smoke, but having the name just for symbollic purposes. Either way, that's not what I really meant. For example, Ice, Wood, Lava, Storm, Boil, and Dust are all distinct from their basic component natures, and are not inherent to them. None of those advanced elements happen at all with only one component. Smoke happens with one component, even if not in the most effective way. It has to be something that requires both, and cannot be used by normal people with Fire and Wind natures separately. --GoDai (talk) 22:04, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Depends on what you consider smoke. The first sentence of the article on smoke at wikipedia is as follows: "Smoke is the collection of airborne solid and liquid particulates and gases emitted when a material undergoes combustion or pyrolysis, together with the quantity of air that is entrained or otherwise mixed into the mass". Emphasis is mine. Symbolism aside, wind is air in movement, so in a sense, wind is required for smoke. And if you think about it, air, or at least oxygen is required for the fire to combust. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:12, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * But that kind of sounds like something that can be done through a collaboration justu of Fire and Wind. Anyway, I guess that's pretty good. I just think there's something obvious, but I just can't think of it. --GoDai (talk) 22:15, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Smoke was the obvious thing for me. It was a suggestion by an unregistered user. It fit perfectly. When I searched classical elements in popular culture at wikipedia, I saw that Dungeons and Dragons also has Fire and Wind/Air making Smoke. That sealed the deal to me. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:38, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

That's one of the things that made me guess Smoke first, but D&D uses something that resembles the Greek/Western classical elements (Air, Fire, Water, Earth), and so Water+Earth=Ooze, and other than smoke, ice, lava, or ooze, 8 other combinations are available through positive and negative. In Japanese culture, air is just empty space, and wind is a separately existing substance or force that travels through empty space. The idea is a little different. --GoDai (talk) 22:45, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * I saw the positive and negative as well, but just the fact somewhere the combination exists somewhere felt like a positive sign. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:49, April 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, I guess so, but how about compressed, superheated air? --GoDai (talk) 22:59, April 24, 2010 (UTC)

Patterns
There are some patterns seen in the formation of the advanced natures, which could aid in figuring out unknown ones.
 * Chakra is changed in the two ways that the two components are transformed at the same time. Example: Lava could be formed by superheating and changing the density-like mud-and composition of chakra at the same time.
 * The result is something that is the only obvious new product that could be formed. Example: Earth+Water is Wood, not mud, as mud is only a mixed form of the two which can be produced by using the two natures separately, or just Earth in Naruto.
 * The result is not inherent to jutsu of the already-existing basic element. Example: (In canon) Water jutsu cannot create ice or bright fluid energy, Earth cannot create wood or manipulate molecules, Fire cannot create lava, etc.
 * This is why I doubt Light and Smoke, even though they are good theories. A Fire jutsu can create smoke without the use of a Wind jutsu, and a Lightning jutsu create light without the use of a Fire justu. They could still be new natures, but something has to be different about them from what the already-existing natures can do.
 * The name of the new element is basic and simple, even if it is not the best way to explain the effects. Example: Storm is bright fluid energy, Dust is molecules, and Boil is acidic gas.
 * If something like Plasma or Radiation was an element, they probably would have something more simplified.
 * The name of the new nature only has to make sense by the names, and not the effects in the World of Naruto.
 * In real life, Water+Lightning=Storm, Earth+Wind=Dust, and Water+Fire=Boil all make sense, even though water and electricity cannot make bright fluid energy, earth and wind cannot make molecules, and water and fire cannot make acid.
 * Therefore, the effect is often not the literal idea of the name. Example: bright fluid energy for Storm and acid gas for Boil.
 * The new nature possesses at least one important property of each of the two components. Example: Storm has fluidity and energy, Wood has change in composition and density, and "fluid" growth.

Just because that is a pattern, it doesn't mean that's the one. Maybe there is another pattern that would emerge if some of the theories are confirmed. Maybe there's no need to have such a pattern. I never thought I'd say this, but I think you're trying a bit too hard to see something. I looked for additions that summed up a reasonable theory and listed it. I think it's unnecessary to look for such an elaborate and intricate exact science behind them. We don't even know if there is something defining if A + B = C other than Kishimoto's "does this make any sense?" approach to it. We already have some ground rules for how they work, no need to make an entire Constitution out of it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:19, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

Well I guess so, and sorry if this was a bother. I was just thinking about Smoke, and now that I think of it, I'm not quite sure if I saw a Fire jutsu release smoke. Have you seen that anywhere? If a Fire jutsu cannot make smoke on its own, I would definitely consider Smoke as an advanced element. --GoDai (talk) 21:00, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

Just when stuff is set ablaze, or the fire kicks up smoke from hitting the ground. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:47, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm, maybe then Smoke Release will be different in a way that it only produces smoke with no requirement, and it will be able to manipulate it like wind. I think the fact that "Fire Release jutsu do not produce smoke with no fuel other than chakra" is key, and therefore no smoke is produced when it doesn't touch anything else. --GoDai (talk) 23:17, April 30, 2010 (UTC)

The only problem with Smoke Release (even though I suggested it), it lacks the idea of what abilities it would have. Right now, the only thing I could think of is a quick escape (like stereotypical ninjas), and suffocating someone with the highly toxic smoke.

Kigiri and Kihō used smoke techniques. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 15:11, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

Well, Kigiri has Fire Release. But, if Smoke turns out to be false, I'dgo with Plasma as a second choice, as I explained somewhere else on this page.

Magnetism
The word "nature (性質; Seishitsu)" in Nature Transformation is meant to indicate something like "property," as what I have mentioned above. If the Third Kazekage had a magnetic chakra, isn't that a property transformation? The Iron Sand kekkei genkai may be some kind of derived form, or another name, of this magnetic nature. --GoDai (talk) 00:03, May 6, 2010 (UTC)

What about this
What do you think about after a element is build up the user change it's proprieties like the Boil Release, for example, may be in gasous form or liquid form, or something like thatThe ultimate fan of NARUTO welimer2 00:42, May 14, 2010 (UTC)

Lightning + Wind?
I don't like the Idea for Swift release... it just seems to be a Body Flicker on drugs. I was thinking something more elemental, like maybe something like a Sound Release or Sky Release. Maybe even the storm release from the movie would work, I heard somewhere that that was a confirmed Wind and Lightning combo. all we would really need to do is change the name... The New Nub, YellowPhoenix Idk how to sign my name, not really (-.-)
 * I'm not very fond of a Sky Release. What would it be really? Godai already suggested Sound Release before, and the theory does make sense, but I think that sound is too closely related to wind for it to be a combo with lightning. I once considered Light as a possible candidate, like light being laser-like and cutting, but them I found it better fitting for fire and lightning. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:08, July 16, 2010 (UTC)

Your right... But Swift release isn't really like an element control :S. you just move insanely fast. its useful, but its not really an element :S YellowPhoenix (talk) 03:58, July 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * It still appeared in the movie. I usually make theories on top of things. As a "Release", it has to be an element. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:53, July 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Maybe it could be Dark Release, which some people theorized would be a Fire+Wind combo, and substitute fire for lightning. Couldn't that be a reasonable explanation, assuming that Fire+Wind is something Else. YellowPhoenix (talk) 22:06, July 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Like I say in the table, I see fire and wind as smoke. Lightning and wind making Dark makes no sense. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:25, July 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * K, guess I cant argue with that. We might as well wait for when the Lightning+Wind combo and Fire+Wind combo are revealed. Excuse my naivety, im new and still trying to figure things out :S YellowPhoenix (talk) 00:41, July 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not naivety, you just have different ideas. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:44, July 18, 2010 (UTC)

Dark
I'm sorry I can't get around this, but Dark just doesn't seem to be an advanced Lightning as much as it seems like Fire+Wind. I keep thinking of the words "endothermic" and "exothermic" when I try to logically think of it's effects, and I believe the chakra being absorbed is too general compared to the vibrating electrical energy in Lightning Release. The blue fire in Dark Release: Judgment screams "Fire!" and Dark Release: Inhaling Maw implies, well, Wind, and a bit of Danzō Shimura's Vacuum-based jutsu, too. You also mentioned that really nice idea of Wind putting out the Fire, and I also used that in my primary theory. I think Fire should at least be one of the elements, although I am not clearly sure how that will affect the balance of your table. I also think the word "entropy" somehow seems fitting in how the energy absorbed is converted into blue flames (symbolically, heat) --GoDai (talk) 03:06, August 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * I see the blue flames in this as more of a relation to the will o wisp than actual fire, to the gloomy feel about it. I still think that as far as Fire and Wind goes, Smoke would be a better combo. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:55, August 27, 2010 (UTC)

Yin² and Yang²
If you want a suggestion for what stronger versions of Yin and Yang might make, how about a and ? In Japanese, the Sun and Moon can actually be called and, respectively, instead of the basic  and.

Also, if you want to cheer up your page a bit, I wouldn't mind making some pretty icons for your theoretical elements. —ShounenSuki (talk 00:02, September 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * Yin and Yang comprise everything, so a truly higher version of them would be hard to find. However, the combination of them —the true combination— is called the . This concept refers to literally everything. The entire universe, all of creation is part of the Supreme Ultimate.


 * Also, I created icons for nine of your hypothetical natures. I hope you like them ^^ Any comments are appreciated.
 * Nature_Icon_Brine.svg Brine
 * Nature_Icon_Land.svg Land
 * Nature_Icon_Light.svg Light
 * Nature_Icon_Magnetism.svg Magnetism
 * Nature_Icon_Radiation.svg Radiation
 * Nature_Icon_Smoke.svg Smoke
 * Nature_Icon_Sound.svg Sound
 * Nature_Icon_Typhoon.svg Typhoon
 * Nature_Icon_Wave.svg Wave
 * —ShounenSuki (talk 23:04, September 19, 2010 (UTC)


 * I was looking through your list of hypothetical elements and I came up with a few alternatives.


 * Instead of and, I would suggest  and . This word actually refers to an even finer dust than 塵 used in the standard Dust Release. In fact, where 塵 is used to represent numbers in the 10-9 range, 埃 is used for numbers that are a step smaller, in the 10-10 range. If this actually comes around as becoming reality, the old Dust release should probably be renamed as Dirt Release, though.


 * Instead of and, I would suggest  and . Miasma is a toxic gas or vapour that was believed to cause diseases. Another alternative would be  and .  also refers to spirit, mind, essence, and atmosphere. It's the Japanese translation for the well-known Chinese term Qì.


 * As an alternative for and, I would suggest  and . This kanji is made up of the kanji for  and , indicating ultimate brightness. It can also refer to wisdom and clarity.


 * For and, I would suggest  and.


 * For and, I would suggest  and.


 * These suggestions do not mean I dislike your own option or that there's anything wrong with them. On the contrary, I admire the effort and imagination you've shown on this page. You've made some very sound theories.


 * On a related note, here are some more icons for you ^^ First for some of the natures you're already using:
 * Nature_Icon_Acid.svg Acid
 * Nature_Icon_Eruption.svg Eruption
 * Nature_Icon_Forest.svg Forest
 * Nature_Icon_Freezing.svg Freezing
 * Nature_Icon_Fume.svg Fume
 * Nature_Icon_Lustre.svg Lustre
 * Nature_Icon_Metal.svg Metal
 * Nature_Icon_Powder.svg Powder
 * Nature_Icon_Tempest.svg Tempest
 * Nature_Icon_Velocity.svg Velocity
 * Nature_Icon_Sun.svg Sun
 * Nature_Icon_Moon.svg Moon


 * And second for the natures I suggested, should you wish to use them.
 * Nature_Icon_Brightness.svg Brightness
 * Nature_Icon_Fine_Dust.svg Fine Dust
 * Nature_Icon_Frost.svg Frost
 * Nature_Icon_Gas.svg Gas
 * Nature_Icon_Hurricane.svg Hurricane
 * Nature_Icon_Miasma.svg Miasma


 * I hope you like them ^^ —ShounenSuki (talk 17:23, September 20, 2010 (UTC)

About the Supreme Ultimate thing, that seems like the ability to control Space and Time. You are really good at making those icons, how do you do that? Vik0z0z (talk) 13:06, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

A vector graphics program named Inkscape. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:46, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

Your theory
THANK YOU LORD FOR TAKING OMNIBENDER TO NARUTOPEDIA. you helped me so much I wanted to know how to pronouce in japanese the elements release but i just knew the name of the elemente EXAMPLE i knew hikari was light but i didn't knew light release was kōton thank you AND PLEASE TELL ME WHERE DO YOU FOUND THE WAY OF LEARNING AND WHERES THE SITE YOU DO THAT.

Feedback
I really lke how you've applied Yin and Yang, and hope most of this will turn out similarly. Only thing i notice right now, "速" for "Sokudo" should be Sokuton, but your element only says Soton. --GoDai (talk) 23:45, September 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Weird. Usually ShounenSuki points out when I make mistakes with the kanji and romanization. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:49, September 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmmm I am quite sure it's "Soku+Do". --GoDai (talk) 23:54, September 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * There was one time his suggestion didn't add up with what I found out. Pressure Release would be Atsuton, but he said it would most likely be Atton. I'll ask him later. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:08, September 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * To me, Atton sounds right because the "tsu" would become smaller in from of "ta", "chi", "tsu", "te", or "to", but there are many exceptions, I believe. --GoDai (talk) 00:37, September 24, 2010 (UTC)
 * GoDai is right, should be Sokuton. Also,  is generally pronounced as shiomizu,  should be Netton and  would probably be better off being written as simply . —ShounenSuki (talk 01:08, September 25, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'd be nothing without you guys. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:15, September 25, 2010 (UTC)

Haha no problem. I like the idea overall; If I am correct, in your theory, Yin generally creates enhanced form manipulation, and Yang "powers up" an element? --GoDai (talk) 07:16, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * That pretty much sums it up. Madara said that Yin Release creates form, so that's beyond shape transformation, and Yang Release deals with life and vitality, so I took that as augmentation potential. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:09, September 26, 2010 (UTC)
 * OMG I just realized something. I shot at nothing and hit something way back. Check this way way back revision of the page, see what I put down as Water plus Water. Unrelated, but I can't believe it has been almost one year since I made this page. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:42, September 27, 2010 (UTC)
 * Whoa, very interesting. Well, with the tiny amount of info we had back then, we had no choice but to believe Water Release relied on Shape Transformation, but it still kinda does. It's still very interesting to see what this has become. Maybe that could be another possibility for a more powerful Yin? --GoDai (talk) 04:05, September 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I'm more excited about the fact I predicted there would be a nature that deals with shape transformation. On a more powerful Yin, ShounenSuki suggested the Moon, for reasons already elaborated. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:10, September 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * Mhm, but right now I rather not consider Yin as Shape Transformation, because it is simply on a complete different level. But you are right, as it indeed deals with the form of chakra. The only thing I am confused about now is why is Yang necessary to create things that are not alive? --GoDai (talk) 23:53, September 28, 2010 (UTC)
 * I see Yin as creating stuff, but not necessarily making them real. It creates things as concepts. If this turns out to be the root of genjutsu for example, it all happens in the realm of imagination. Yang on the other hand, it's energy, it's power, it's substance. It makes things stronger, without necessarily being something itself. It can exist without form, or adapt to a form which already exists. Medical ninjutsu heals, Naruto's Yang aura made trees grow from Yamato's totem. Putting the two together gives substance to thought, creating things. Without Yang, concepts of Yin are confined to the realm of thoughts, and without Yin, Yang can't be put to use, because it must adapt to forms around it rather than taking new shape. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:24, September 29, 2010 (UTC)

Aha, so even non-living things require Yang to have "mass", so to speak? --GoDai (talk) 00:34, September 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * That's how I see it. I wonder what else Yin-Yang Release can do. Can it "vanish" things from existence? We know spacetime ninjutsu, such as Kamui, can send things to other dimensions, but could Izanagi, or maybe a yet to be introduced Izanami do the opposite? Can Yin-Yang Release be used to erase things from existence rather then destroying them? Can Yin-Yang Release create incorporeal things? Can it create power in people, such as kekkei genkai? Possibilities are endless. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:18, September 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Indeed. I also await the technique known as "Izanami", which I also think would be able to "delete" things from existence, or at least something either opposite or complementing Izanagi. One minor question also hit me, if Yang is related to the physical/bodily energy and Yin is related to mental/spiritual energy, what's the third "Natural Energy" in Senjutsu? I don't really think natural energy would be really something similar, but who knows, right? --GoDai (talk) 01:52, September 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * No idea, I don't think there is one either. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:07, October 1, 2010 (UTC)