Talk:Nature Transformation

Lightning icon colour
I was updating the icons I made for the elements and a question came to mind; should I change the colour of the lightning icon from purple to yellow? --ShounenSuki (talk 17:08, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Now that you mention, there is a lack of yellow, but I'd wait until a few more people voiced their opinions. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:14, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think a yellow-gold lightning icon would look really good and tie in more to the other color icons (red fire, blue water, brown earth, yellow lightning), but would you also change the wind icon to a lighter white shade too? --Dragon Hacker (talk) 17:40, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * P.S. I liked the original star shaped advanced nature chart (above) so much better than the choppy square chart which it was changed to. It was so much easier to read the combinations of advanced natures in the star chart and it tied in with the circular chart we already had; plus it showed the MOST LIKELY advanced nature combinations which were not confirmed yet to fill in the chart, all it needed was for the arrows to be cleaned up and more curved to match with the circular chart--Dragon Hacker (talk) 17:40, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * That one was removed because it wasn't as good quality as the svg icons. The table is something I tried so we'd have some image showing what produces what when mixed, my original idea was to make something like the star chart. I left a message in the edit summary saying it needs tweaking to better fit in the page, my coding skills are rather limited. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:45, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * ShounenSuki, I love your icons, they are the coolest! I actually go to your user page and look at your icons quite a bit. Maybe you should make the new lightning icon a dandelion-yellow. I also think that the dust nature should change colour, because the colour is a little close to the earth nature's icon. Otherwise, i love them all!--NejiByakugan360 17:51, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure changing the color for Dust would help, it's different enough from Earth. Earth is a chocolate brown, Dust is closer to beige, coffee tone. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:57, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry! I wasn't trying to bash your chart, but I was just trying to state my preference. But ya, I do think that the star chart flows more with the theme. Also as another note (sorry, lol, can't help myself) we have so many red advanced nature icons (Fire, Lava, Blaze, anything fire related, Boil) should we change some to other colors too, like Lava being orange'ier or Boil being purple'ier? I'll try to stop now... --Dragon Hacker (talk) 18:02, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, there was one thing in the star chart that I liked: because of the circular form in which the basic elements were layed out, there were no repetitions of advanced elements. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:09, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Here, I couldn't resist myself so I made some of these changes to the images, here they are:

File:Lightning.png File:Wind.png File:Lava.png File:Boil.png File:Dust.png File:Ice.png File:Wood.png
 * Why would you make Boil Release purple?


 * Any way, I feel the colours are fine as they are right now, so I'm not really planning on changing them unless there's a strong call for change from the community. I only asked about Lightning Release because the colour image in chapter 457 gave the lightning behind the Raikage a yellow colour. For the rest, I believe the colours fir the natures perfectly fine and I feel they are clear and distinct enough to serve their purpose. I like them as they are. --ShounenSuki (talk 20:18, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Okay, I was just changing the colors slightly based what I heard on this page and others about peoples preferences. Oh, and I changed the Boil to purple because I felt there were many red natures. I was just seeing what people thought about the icons, so no problem. --Dragon Hacker (talk) 20:40, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I like those new icons. I think you should change the lightning and such to them.
 * The new color for the Lightning Nature is great! You rock Suki! --Cidem1324

Do we even NEED the Advanced Nature chart?
I mean seriously. The ShounenSuki created one of the thing we saw in the series I get, but do we need the advanced one? Cause first that random chart looks kinda funky, then we have no real proof if any of that holds up beyond assuming the advanced nature shares the same weaknesses/strengths as their originals.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 17:58, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * If you're talking about the one I made, it's not supposed to show who's stronger than who, but which element a specific blend will produce. Wanna know what Water and Fire make? See where the line and column meet and you have Boil. That's what I wanted to put in the page. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:02, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm talking about in general. It looks like that section is getting overly confusing for no reason. I mean, do we honestly need a picture diagram pointing that out, when its already mentioned clearly in it's bullet point and article?TheUltimate3 (talk) 18:04, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * We have one for the relationships between basic elements, I think a more visual approach could be helpful. The main issue is to find a way to make a less intrusive explanation. If the star chart could be made into a svg image, and have the speculative portions of it removed, it would be great. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:09, October 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the reason we should make an advanced nature chart using the same method as the basic natures chart is quite simple, to replace the basic nature chart since the advance nature chart will have the basic included in it. Simant (talk) 19:07, October 12, 2009 (UTC)

Idea!
Why cant we just do something like this, instead of having a huge table? The Ice (氷, Kōri) nature, used by Haku, is created by simultaneously combining the Water and Wind natures. This nature allows for the use of Ice Release (氷遁, Hyōton) ninjutsu. Ice Release has been shown as being strong against Fire Release. Yukigakure-nin and Renga were also able to use Ice Release techniques without the kekkei genkai, by drawing on already-existing ice and cold. +=
 * I don't oppose that idea. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:04, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * eh... kinda dislike both ideas. I mean the entire point of the advanced nature chart was to replace the basic nature chart image. Simant (talk) 23:07, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

That looks good, i think the original advance nature chart should be put up now (the star one) in won't be confusing because of the equations to clear things up. That way relationships can be viewed and it may contribute to a strength/weakness system that could occur later on --Flaremmm (talk) 02:10, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * For one I find it amazing how users pop out of nowhere and comment just to say they agree with another edit. But whatever. first of all, the images are included wrong on the page. secondly, what is the point of writing something like "The letter A Plus the letter B equals AB" and then writing next to it, "A+B=AB". Seems kinda redundant to me. Simant (talk) 02:15, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know what you're talking but AB = A X B not A + B. And I didn't just say I liked the edit, if you bothered to read my first post and FYI i have been watching this page for ages and this is the first time i am satisfied with the implemented system.--Flaremmm (talk) 02:19, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * I am not referring to math. I am referring to ObjectA + ObjectB = NewObjectAB. And thanks for saying how bad a job we were doing before if this is the first time you were satisfied. Simant (talk) 02:53, October 17, 2009 (UTC)

I just didn't like the new chart and the old one was hard to make out--Flaremmm (talk) 03:48, October 17, 2009 (UTC)
 * I think the equation solution currently in the article adds absolutely nothing. At least the table allowed people to quickly look up what advanced elements used, for instance, Earth Release. --ShounenSuki (talk 12:18, October 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * I still don't see why we don't assume our readers can read and just not have any of this >.> it's been going on for like 2 weeks and so far the page just went from ok, to bad, to worse, to lolbad.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 12:38, October 17, 2009 (UTC)

Movie natures
The third Shippuden movie natures are certainly going to stir things up. Do we make a seperate section for them, or do we simply list them along the manga ones and Crystal? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:23, October 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * Why ? Natures are not necessarily doing by mixing, such as sand (Gaara), paper (Konan) or the iron sand (Sasori with Third Kazekage puppets) and the other did not was not determined like the shadow (Nara Clan) or Enton. Itachou (talk) 17:27, October 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * Every -ton technique is an element, apart from Enton, those aren't advanced nature. Sand is a bijuu derived ability, Konan developed her own jutsu, most likely a hijutsu, Nara clan shadow techniques are also hijutsu, Iron Sand is a kekkei genkai, but has never been called an advanced nature, only speculated as being one. Still no idea on what Blaze Release is, but it's either fire and lightning (which I find unlikely), or it's the first of a class of advanced natures that are uber powerful forms of the basic elements. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:34, October 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * There are new elements? I didn't notice that... --ShounenSuki (talk 21:51, October 17, 2009 (UTC)


 * 2 Problems I Have: Swift Release, and Dust Release are both called Jinton some body please fix or change this also WHY ARE THERE 3 NEW Elemental Releases I mean Swift, Dark, Metal? Only the Latter sounds like an element this is to hard to follow anymore.--Nintendo-Fan (talk) 01:53, October 18, 2009 (UTC)Nintendo-Fan

Swift Release might be Lightning related, as in or. Not sure about Dark Release, but carries additional connotations of "darkness", such as the unseen and divine, or the darkness of a grave or of the underworld. It could potentially be related to yin/yang transformation, as well. There could also be the possibility of elements produced by combining three elements simultaneously. FF-Suzaku (talk) 02:28, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * I've got a question since I haven't seen the movie, how do you know how is called the element if in the swift and steel release says there's no named jutsu of them?Happy Milk xD (talk) 03:08, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * I have a question as well: How certain are we that these are actually new elements? Judging by their articles, Swift Release is nothing more than the Body Flicker Technique and Steel Release nothing more than Earth Release: Earth Spear. Dark Release sounds like the Chakra Absorption Technique and the film's Storm Release sounds like a Lightning Release combined with the Chakra Absorption Technique. Are we sure they are actually said to be elements in the film? We've seen all of these abilities before without it being special elements. --ShounenSuki (talk 14:36, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * Only reason I see them as advanced natures is because of their "-ton" names. When I first learned about Hiruko and his Chimera technique and stealing of kekkei genkai, the first thing it came to my mind was kekkei genkai that were body enhancements, kinda like Shikotsumyaku. Ask FF-Suzaku, he's the one who added the info. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:43, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * Just another thing, not all jutsus with "-ton" in their names are advanced natures: Shirōikiton .Happy Milk xD (talk) 15:26, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * That one is a bit obvious, but that's also a video game jutsu. I know these are movie jutsu, but from what was added about them, they could be natures. They certainly fall under what we've seem regarding advanced natures and kekkei genkai, Four-Tail's Lava Release notwithstanding. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:48, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

So i'm currently watching it with french subtitles (im anglo-francophone) and the so called Metal Release (Style de Métal translated: "Metal Style") might be a different Nature. However, I don't think that the information in the movie is sufficient enough. I digress, I completely agree with ShounenSuki.--NejiByakugan360 17:14, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * ^_^ Be careful about any language version of Naruto other than the official Japanese or English language versions... ;) You know, the bulgarian version of the naruto anime translates from the English version of the series and uses this wiki as a reference. *snicker* ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Oct 18, 2009 @ 17:24 (UTC)


 * Where did you find it with subtitles NejiByakugan? My French isn't perfect, but I can still get something. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:29, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

Never mind someone made up the subtitles and the video was deleted. So sorry for the inconvinience! -_-'. Ps: Sorry i forgot to sign in and sign my comment.--NejiByakugan360 18:17, October 18, 2009 (UTC)


 * The movie was shown (or parts of it?) with French subtitles a while back at a big convention of some sort in France, as I recall. I got the Japanese technique names and translated them into English myself, they can be found (with descriptions) on various Japanese websites and in the Japanese Naruto wiki pages, among other locations. At any rate, it would probably be best to wait for more information before putting them in the Nature Transformation articles. Dark Release is definitely phrased like a nature transformation, though. FF-Suzaku (talk) 06:24, October 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * Found three videos at youtube, but none of them show these new natures, the third one does show the Chimera jutsu though. Here they are:  . Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:12, October 19, 2009 (UTC)


 * I also did find the character FF-Suzaku listed down in the Japanese page for the movie with Ctrl+F, section on Hiruko (also found by Ctrl+F and the kanji for his name we use in his article) reads this:
 * 卑留呼（ヒルコ）: 声 - 保志総一朗
 * かつての木ノ葉の忍. 全身に包帯を巻いているのが特徴. 伝説の三忍とは知り合いだったが、自分が強くなれなかったことを憂い、一人孤立し動物実験を行い、鬼芽羅の術を会得した. しかしこのことは木ノ葉に知られ、里を追われる身となる. 血継限界を持つ忍を連れ去ったのは、金環日食が行われる日に鬼芽羅の術でその忍の術を自らのものとし、最強の忍として世界征服を行うため. カカシを狙ったのは、17年前の第三次忍界対戦（神無毘橋の戦い）で生き残った際、うちは一族の血継限界である写輪眼を得る事であり、当時のカカシに出会った時に17年後に自分の元に来るよう時限式の術を掛けた.
 * 時が近くなると血継限界を持つ忍を4人連れ去り、木ノ葉や砂隠れに自らの幻影を映し、宣戦布告をする. 最後の一人となったカカシを取り込めば完全になるところだったが、予め綱手がカカシに掛けていた時限式の術で万華鏡写輪眼（神威）が発動して阻まれ、助けに来たナルトと共に交戦. 最終的にナルトの風遁・螺旋手裏剣を自身の術で抑えきれず敗北. 死に際に、カカシから自身が一人ではないことを教えられた.
 * 鬼芽羅の術で会得した独自の血継限界は「鋼遁」「迅遁」「冥遁」「嵐遁」である
 * From what I gather, the last line shows what he got with his technique. Link for the wikipedia article is here for those who want to check themselves. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:34, October 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * That text does say I guess they really are advanced elements, then. This does make me wonder if the film makers even care about what they make... They could have at least come up with original abilities. --ShounenSuki (talk 21:55, October 19, 2009 (UTC)
 * I say if they are to be added to the Nature Transformation page, put them in a separate category from the other 8 Advance Natures (similar to Speculation), and indicate that they are from the movie (Other Advance Natures). This way it won't confuse people who just read the manga, and for those who don't consider the movies canon. Cidem1324
 * Like a non-canon section? Fine by me, as long as we move Crystal there too, it may have been in the anime, but it's canon as these. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:09, October 20, 2009 (UTC)

I am against that move. Anime counts as much as manga here. The gray areas are games the movies, which tend to do things like this.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 14:44, October 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * You think a movie nature section would be better? I can deal with that, as long as they're properly listed. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:28, October 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm seriously for the idea. Maybe you should make a Non-canonical Natures section because there me be different natures in games to. Just a suggestion. I seriously like the idea of putting it in a different section.--NejiByakugan360 22:40, October 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * Separating them to that extent is unnecessary (I'm saying that a lot now). It will eventually cause crap on this already fluctuating page to get even worse. Simply making it clear that these were movie only would suffice. It does not have to get any more complicated than that. Sometimes simple solutions are the best solutions.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 22:48, October 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * Omg I completely agree. Very well said. *Claps* =). So does that mean we should still seperate it? I mean I you are right that it might bring a load more of crap so...........--NejiByakugan360 23:00, October 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * The only thing is (in my opignion) is that these natures seem extreemly unreal, especially swift release. Swift is not much of a nature. Even crystal is proved to be a nature because it has texture. Swift isnt really like an object that touched. Isnt this just like an extreemly enhanced Body Flicker Technique? Dark may be considered as a sort of opposite of lightning, not to sure about that one either. It sort of bothers me that this may be a Yin-Yang which is like light and dark natured chakra. Metal definatly makes sense though, even though there is still Earth Release: Earth Spear...It depends. If, when someone tried to hit him and he used the Metal Release and it made an appropriate noise on metal being hit, then it can be considered a nature, no?--NejiByakugan360 23:05, October 20, 2009 (UTC)

The properties of all these film natures can already be found in regular techniques used in the manga. None of them would qualify for a new element, but the films never bothered with consistency and canonicity. I dislike the anime, but even they did a better job coming up with an element.

Keeping the film natures separate from the manga and anime natures sounds like the best option right now. --ShounenSuki (talk 23:17, October 20, 2009 (UTC)

ShounenSuki! Please tell me that you are making more icons!? I love them!--NejiByakugan360 23:24, October 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * Trying to keep them separated like that is what kept this discussion going way longer than it needed to be. Like I said, the best solution is to just add them in, mark them off as movie only, and let fate play them out on it's own time. No more. No less. The end.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 23:25, October 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * If you do make the icons, I think you should consider having that color change for the lightning nature to yellow, this way you can the purple to dark nature (or a darker shade of purple), not we'd be able to see the kanji with a black background, unless you change the color of the kanji as well. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:40, October 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * Suggestions noted ^^ The new icons will be up soon. --ShounenSuki (talk 14:54, October 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * Why don't you just use those icons on the top of this page? then you just have to make the 3 new ones. --216.174.135.2 (talk) 15:12, October 21, 2009 (UTC)

Those are png files, they don't zoom in and out as well as svg ones. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:31, October 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * You never cease to amaze me ShounenSuki. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:41, October 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, the new icons are up. I hope you like them. --ShounenSuki (talk 17:47, October 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * According to the Japanese Wikipedia, the film's Storm Release is made up of the Lightning and Wind Releases. Could someone verify this? --ShounenSuki (talk 20:16, October 21, 2009 (UTC)


 * Maybe FF-Suzaku? He says he watched the movie (or at least parts of it) in the French event, small parts of which are in the videos I linked above. Storm being part wind makes a bit of sense, considering the bottom part of the character for storm is the character for wind. Unless Darui uses Wind Release techniques, I don't see the current definition for Storm Release being called into question. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:34, October 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see how storm would also be wind. Darui can use water and lightning and storm release, for storm to include wind Darui would would also have to have 3 natures which would mean that he would have 2 bloodline limits, since those with an advanced nature can only use that nature and the 2 natures that make it up (as said by Tenzo), which is highly unlikely. Plus storm release looks like liquefied lightning. I personally think that the lightning release and wind release would make up swift release...
 * No need to shout. Anyway, there's no reason why he'd have to have two kekkei genkai. The Fifth Mizukage has two kekkei genkai, but the two use an element in common, fire. I see no reason for Darui to have a Storm kekkei genkai, giving him lightning and water, and he could have developed wind release on his own. It's also conceivable that one can have two kekkei genkai with different natures. Having Ice Release and Lava Release would mean one also has Water, Wind, Fire and Earth Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:53, October 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, I have no problem if the Storm Release is really a mixture of the Lightning and Wind natures. Darui would have the Storm nature Blood Limit, allowing him to mix the Lightning and Wind natures, but didn't have the Ice nature Blood Limit to mix the Wind and Water natures, but still learned the Water separately. Though lets wait until the english translated version of the movie comes out before changing the Storm nature. On a random note, I can't wait until the Tsukikage to use Wind so I can make his Dust nature a mixture of Earth and Wind. >_< User:Cidem1324

Yin yang
shouldnt Yin yang be posted as a element since it is an element that doesnt consist of an acyual element, but still is a element. and put a icon for it and put it as a element for shikamaru, tayuya, and others, like choji ino and techniques like shadow clone, flying swallow,etc. and puut is as either white black or grey

Not necessarily an element, there's little to no information about it to do anything other than what already is. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:27, October 21, 2009 (UTC)

Advanced Relationships
It would be nice if File:Advanced Elemental Relationships Diagram.svg had an imagemap, so you could click the individual items. I would do it but I'm not sure how to compensate for how svg files are resizable. Simant (talk) 14:31, October 22, 2009 (UTC)