Talk:Earth Release: Golem Technique

What is this Jutsu name in Japanese?
 * I don't think that this technique has been named in Japanese yet. Jacce | Talk 10:03, November 8, 2009 (UTC)
 * Not critical, but who named this one?--Thomas Finlayson (talk) 3:03, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Article was created by Steveo920, no renames ever since. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:42, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

Mass
It is unknown if this jutsu negates the mass of such a large golem, or if Akatsuchi possesses unusual strength.--Thomas Finlayson (talk) 6:57, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * How do you know the golem was heavy? all it did was use its hands to rip zetsu off. - S im A nt 03:04, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Fair point, but that needs mentioning too. Consider, a giant golem apparently composed of rock who we are saying has 'superb durability allows for both offensive and defensive purposes'...and is still light? Even the concept of the strength to yank Zetsu suggest muscle mass superior to humans. Either this is an extremely powerful and useful technique due to high offense and defense with only blocked vision as the deterent or Akatsuchi is unusually strong, which deserves its own comment.--Thomas Finlayson (talk) 8:40, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Gotta ask, where does it say in the manga that it is made out of rock, i mean it seems likely that it is.. but where does it say it? - S im A nt 04:01, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * ...Good point. Or perhaps it is the type of rock that matters in this case. Do you guys have an idea?--Thomas Finlayson (talk) 04:17, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * I think it actually is rock because if you look here in the upper-left panel what looks like a few pieces of rock falling off. The only other substance I can think of for this would be similiar to Earth Release: Earth Style Wall and I do not think we have ever seen it flaking off.?--Thomas Finlayson (talk) 10:26, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Talking to myself is getting old.--Thomas Finlayson (talk) 9:07, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Talking to myself is getting old.--Thomas Finlayson (talk) 12:02, May 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * i didn't know that such a simple technique could warrant such a huge discussion... obviously it's either something that he stores within his body or has the ability to create on demand as for the technique i'm pretty sure he's made out of earth; i mean he LOOKS earth made =_= --Cerez365 (talk) 08:03, May 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * I would say store because you can see a miniture version in his mouth. As for the composition, I was not the one to bring it up. I was just curious how the heck he could hang upside down, use such a huge jutsu, and not loose his spine. --Thomas Finlayson (talk) 11:23, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Disappearance
After being dropped, there was no sign of the golem except for crushed floor where it landed. --Thomas Finlayson (talk) 6:57, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * How do you know it was dropped? something else could have made that specific injury to the floor. How do you know it didn't shatter? or perhaps it's like Bawabawa and went back inside Akatsuchi. - S im A nt 03:04, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * There is an impact crater and since the Zetsu spore is supposed to be biological I doubt it could make such a mess. As for the shattering, the pictures show no sign of anything that does not look like part of the floor. Granted their is no sign of the Zetsu spore either, but that may have rolled out of sight (without chakra or wrapped around a body it would be a lot smaller), while I doubt the golem is small enough to be hidden, and if it did break out of sight than pieces should have been scattered around. In fact Bawabawa-style seems the more likely, though that does raise the question of whether it has independent motion as well since just dropping it all the time has little use; but we can save that for another time, that is too much speculation. Due to the lack or remains though I would think it went back in.--Thomas Finlayson (talk) 8:40, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * The "crater" itself could have simply been caused by the sheer size of Akatsuchi when he fell down, hopefully in the anime they will clear up what happens with the golem... As for zetsu spore technique i think i see it in the middle panel with the curvy putty like stuff in the crater. - S im A nt  04:01, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Did the golem even fall? I thought that the crash was from Onoki's technique.--Deva 27 (talk) 04:12, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Two distinct impact "blasts" when Karin jumped away. Also, if Akatsuchi dropping like that could cause such a crater, what about when he came down with the other bodyguards when the Raikage broke the table? Either he dropped and made no cratter, or ran down the wall super fast; the former does not explain the crater, and if he could do the latter he would have little reason to drop down himself. And I cannot tell which is smoke and which is Zetsu, though I admit that it could be covering him up; though I think we would still see more golem fragments if it broke--Thomas Finlayson (talk) 04:17, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * I really don't know what to make of those impact blasts... but if there were two impact "blasts", then one of them was probably from onoki, and he didn't have anything to drop besides the zetsu spore technique, which makes it very likely that the second one was from the same thing. - S im A nt 04:34, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * You mean that while it was crumbling it broke in two, and that the two impacts are from the two pieces? That would be reasonable actually and explain a lot. I would actually agree with that. What do you guys think? --Thomas Finlayson (talk) 9:38, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think the spore technique touching onoki and akatsuchi was connected, i think they fell separated as each person broke it. Also, its likely that onoki's technique is the one that left the crater seeing as he turned the zetsu spores to stone. - S im A nt 04:43, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * What I mean is, Onoki let his spore drop and in the process it broke in two to create the two craters. Akatsuchi however (besides I doubt the spore would have the mass for that big a crater) probably had his golem just chuck the spore in the corner, or maybe it even ate if it was biting it already (good way to get rid of it for good actually). What I mean is that Akatsuchi never let his golem drop, and that Onoki alone was responsible for this.--Thomas Finlayson (talk) 9:51, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Does seem to explain a lot, so what do you guys think? --Thomas Finlayson (talk) 10:34, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yah uh.. sure. As long as you agree that either is possible so that it is not proper to put into the page. - S im A nt 05:02, May 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Come again? Plus I sense you do not quite get what I meant. --Thomas Finlayson (talk) 12:49, May 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * Just saying that either possibility exists, and it is wrong to use either because of that. - S im A nt 01:16, May 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Huh, fine. But how does it go on the final page then? If we do not know which one it is, which one is put up? And what about the other sections?--Thomas Finlayson (talk) 6:31, May 14, 2010 (UTC)
 * I was under the impression we resolved that nothing should be added.. - S im A nt 10:44, May 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Even though my argument states that the information on the page is wrong? That Akatsuchi never dropped his golem down? --Thomas Finlayson (talk) 11:20, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Words just seeem to be confusing everyone, so I will try a new track. I apologize for the quality. This about somes up the present arguement, right? Golem_-1

And here is mine:

File: Golem_-2.JPG.

Is this clearer now? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:50, June 18, 2010 (UTC)

Not really part of this discussion, but since the images were so big, I just made them into links, so they don't take over the page. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:09, June 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Look again. They show that the golem DID NOT fall after all. It stayed in the mouth. Thanks for shortening it though. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 21:48, June 18, 2010 (UTC)
 * Well? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 00:17, June 20, 2010 (UTC)

Non-verbal
Words just seeem to be confusing everyone, so I will try a new track. I apologize for the quality. This about somes up the present arguement, right? File:Golem -1.JPG.

And here is mine:

File: Golem_-2.JPG.

Is this clearer now? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 17:33, July 29, 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry, the pictures were deleted. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 17:34, July 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Though someone may want to shrink it down. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 19:51, July 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * This may sound silly, but what exactly are you arguing here? —ShounenSuki (talk 19:55, July 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * The general consensous when this was first shown, including myself, was that the golem had dropped out of his mouth, yes? What I am trying to show was that it never did (besides the fact that no evidence remains of its impact) and instead went back inside of Akatsuchi's body; that the impacts we see are only caused by Onoki. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 20:00, July 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with ShounenSuki, why are you arguing? My point was neither could be proven, so to drop the issue and not add any of the speculation. S im A nt 20:21, July 29, 2010 (UTC)
 * Why? Because I find this technique interesting since there are so few offensive earth jutsu, and thus I want it as accurate as possible. My desire for accuracy makes it difficult to leave an issue alone. Moreover, I felt the pictures I showed provided strong proof.Thomas Finlayson (talk) 03:54, July 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * So few offensive earth techniques? That's an interesting statement... Of the nineteen earth techniques listed in the databooks, eleven had offensive applications. Only four had defensive applications and ten had supplementary applications. --ShounenSuki (talk 01:32, July 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * Tad off topic. But of the 30 we have listed, 9 are based on Driedara's clay only and not usable by anyone else. Four, maybe five (still under debate) are offense and defense, 3 for transport, 3 are for defense, and 11 are pure offense (and 2 of those are only there because I put them in despite not being in databook). Now compare that number of offensive jutsu with the other elements and it does not look as many.
 * And I just plain like earth jutsu, which is why I have put so many edits on it and its weakness, lightning jutsu.
 * But how does that affect my argument? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 03:54, July 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * It doesn't, of course. It was just an aside.
 * Back on topic, this is a perfect time to use Occam's razor. The simplest solution with the fewest new assumptions is that both the golem and the Tsuchikage's petrified Zetsu fell to the ground, creating the two impacts. --ShounenSuki (talk 11:36, July 30, 2010 (UTC)
 * That is picture one, and I would have agreed with you if not for some information I do not think you are considering. No offense meant there either, it was a rather indirect path for me to come to this conclusion. As I said I was interested in Earth jutsu for offense, and thus I was examining Earth Release: Aggravated Rock Technique, and I noted how it was crumbling when if fell off, but also when it hit the ground (hence the citations I put there on that site) there was nothing left. Occam's Razor (no offense) stated that it had crumbled to dust, but that also raised the question of what had happened in between the two events which stated. The obvious conclusion was that it had started to break off then as well. If you look again at the |picture you can see the conclusion I came to. After that became apparent I reached the Golem conclusion. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 00:03, July 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * The petrified Zetsu didn't show signs of breaking and even if it had broken, the two pieces would have fallen straight down, creating two impacts directly next to one another, instead of the two disconnected impacts we see in the image. —ShounenSuki (talk 00:32, July 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Excellent point actually! I cannot deny it, though I am curious if you agree with the rest of it (not the Golem part, will go there next). Thomas Finlayson (talk) 01:03, July 31, 2010 (UTC)

?

Anyone?

I don't see exactly the point of this discussion. Fallen golem or vanished golem, will that make such a relevant change? Might as well wait to see if the anime sheds some new light, but I think that this simply isn't worth keep discussing. The information in the article as it is in the current revision is accurate. Too much discussion on a too unimportant detail that would only bring a too little change. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:42, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * It started because the argument began with dropping it on foes as an extra attack, plus the possibility of it being a summoning. Finally, like a Bleach character (example up there somewhere) it could mean the Golem was mobile and able to attack. All of this would be possible could leave the mouth. And, as it says on my user page, I do not put a lot of trust in anime. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:58, August 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Anime isn't necessarily bad, there is the potential for it to clarify things that were not very clear in the anime due to the lack of actual motion. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:40, August 4, 2010 (UTC)

Problems
How hard would it be to see with that thing coming out of your mouth?--Thomas Finlayson (talk) 9:39, May 12, 2010 (UTC)
 * Talking to myself is getting old --Thomas Finlayson (talk) 9:10, May 13, 2010 (UTC)

wow =__= you realise it was formed OUTSIDE of his mouth right? while it was coming out it was in a simple earth form. You're behaving like it's the first time you've ever seen something coming out of a shinobis mouth >.> --Cerez365 (talk) 08:05, May 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * If you look inside of his mouth you see a miniture of the golem, which implies it was expanding out of his mouth; not taking shape in front of it. --Thomas Finlayson (talk) 11:18, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Biting
I was thinking more about that whole "eating the Zetsu" I mentionned yesterday and I got thinking that maybe it is true. If it is just a feral statue it could be reasonable to rip Zetsu off with its mouth, but think about how useful it would be to eat it. Akatuchi would not know exactly what the Zetsu is (i.e. can it spread more spores on its own) so storing it in a rock container would be a good way to make it safe (note Onoki petrified his Zetsu). Plus, what better way to transport secret information/items than in the mouth of a golem inside of your mouth? I know this is speculation, but I am curious of what you think.--Thomas Finlayson (talk) 10:33, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Talking to myself is getting old --Thomas Finlayson (talk) 9:09, May 13, 2010 (UTC)
 * Talking to myself is getting old.--Thomas Finlayson (talk) 12:02, May 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * how do you know that the golem technique wasn't canceled? We don't have sufficient information but more than like Akastuchi can create more of those things.

I can see why you're talking to yourself >_> --Cerez365 (talk) 08:07, May 15, 2010 (UTC)

Amusing. Though as you mentioned above there are instances of shinobi extending and retracting weapons as seen here. --Thomas Finlayson (talk) 11:27, May 15, 2010 (UTC)