Talk:Madara Uchiha

Can Madara use Kamui?
Considering how much Obito used Kamui yet everyone was convinced that he was Madara, could it be said that the real Madara actually knows this technique? He did after all teach Obito basically everything the younger Uchiha knows. Plus, When he rescued Obito from death, he was noted for helping Obito "slip" out from under the boulder. Steveo920, November 21, 2013, 19:45
 * And Kakashi?--~Ultimate Supreme  06:26, November 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * The Five Kage did not think Tobi was Madara until Danzō told them at the Five Kage Summit, and after that Obito played the "Hashirama beated up me for good" card to justify how weak "he" had gotten. In short, as of now only Obito and Kakashi possess Kamui.--JOA20 (talk) 08:59, November 22, 2013 (UTC)

Alive
Better update it. Anyone able to? --Mandon (talk) 05:33, November 27, 2013 (UTC)

Grammar correction

I thereby request permission to edit this page for the sake of correcting grammar mistakes.--World Master (talk) 11:41, November 27, 2013 (UTC)

go ahead and correct any grammar issues on any page you want its not agaisnt the rulesMunchvtec (talk) 13:43, November 27, 2013 (UTC)munchvtec

eye thing
in the new chapter is that an eye on his forehead?Munchvtec (talk) 14:24, November 27, 2013 (UTC)munchvtec what do you mean wehre do you see tatIloveinoxxx (talk) 22:55, November 27, 2013 (UTC)

Image
Today's episode should provide at least an image showing Madara without any Reanimation features or grey scaling. If no image in 340 can be found to replace the current one, there will definitely be an image in next weeks episode. --Speysider Talk Page 17:54, November 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't recall that such thing, Spey-kun. Can you provide us which time that Madara appeared on this situation? — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 17:57, November 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Around 17.30, just after Sasuke meets Jugo and Suigetsu. He appears as if he is still alive in that scene. --Speysider Talk Page 18:04, November 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 18:16, November 28, 2013 (UTC)

Senjutsu power?
Are his Senjutsu abilities worth adding as well as the absorption soul technique along with all abilities related to the Six Paths of Pain?--JustaNobody (talk) 00:01, December 5, 2013 (UTC) Along with his latest Fire Release: Hidden in Hot Mist Technique technique?
 * Already mentioned, and if you still have to be taught how stuff works around here, you've obviously not paid enough attention. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:34, December 5, 2013 (UTC)

Hashirama's cells implanted in Madara by Kabuto.
In the last chapter (657) Madara answered to Hashirama that the cells that he see on his body are the result of the implants set up by chance by the partner of his subordinate, that apparently had his same idea to combine together the powers of the Uchiha and the Senjuu.

We already know that Madara was able to implant in his body the cells of Hashirama after his battle with the rival, anyway the words of Madara seem suggest that the current quantity and quality of Shodai's cells in his body are a result of the work of Kabuto (partner of his subordinate Obito) that very likely upgraded Madara also on that side under the assumption that the ancestor Uchiha had done the same in his life for awakening the Rinnegan.

Kabuto's assumption was confirmed in chapter 561 and in the following page Madara reacted like if only after to have discovered Kabuto's hyothesis, he was able to explain to himself the reason for Hashirama's face on his chest. In my opinion what happened in these 2 pages is able to confirm the meaning of Madara's words in the last chapter.

So I think that all this should be mentioned under Madara's voice "Body modifications"--JK88 (talk) 21:56, December 10, 2013 (UTC)

No links. We already knew that the Hashirama face was Kabuto's doing. The whole "ancestor Uchiha did the same for a Rinnegan" is complete speculation. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:06, December 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * You are right about Kabuto's assumption, my bad: I re-read chapter 560 and Kabuto say only that he was sure that from the Sharingan is possible to reach the Rinnegan, but not that the cells of the Senjuu are needed for it.--JK88 (talk) 16:24, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Dojutsu users
Not actually needing their eyes to use their Dojutsu, only need the eyes to unlock the dojusu, as in Madara's case, he used Rinnegans Absorbtion on Amaterasu, and used Susanoo, all without eyes.. so I think what happened is he just activated His Ems and Rinnegan powers without the eyes being present... its like he doesn't need the physical eyes for the jutsu's anymore, but there won't be any further proof because he just got his right eye back, this should be added to the rinnegan, sharingan, and mangekyo sharingan and susanoo pages ItachiWasAHero (talk) 06:07, December 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * What happened in this chapter is the most bullshittiest thing I ever came to witness. I seriously hate Kishimoto now. But even though, Madara didn't absorb Amaterasu. There's no sign of any technique being used. Seelentau 愛議 08:33, December 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Why? This wasn't the first time when Susanoo has been used under special circumstances. We saw it being used with ordinary Sharingan and blind Itachi as you yourself have said. It actually makes perfect sense to me, Sharingan chakra gets made in the brain, Susanoo as a technique isn't something that gets cast out of the eyes, so why would they be needed? Since he has a brain, he still has Sharingan chakra and as such can shape it into Susanoo, big deal--Elveonora (talk) 11:28, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Well, if Amaterasu could be absorbed without the Rinnegans powers then that would mean Orochimaru can do it too. Either way he used Susanoo without eyes, so it is confirmed that you do not need physical eyes to ues dojutsu's.. well at least Susanoo once awakened ItachiWasAHero (talk) 12:01, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

He didn't absorb the Amaterasu with Blocking Technique Absorption Seal though, there was no barrier at all. So far Susanoo is the only exception, can be used with blind eyes, without eyes and with Rinnegan :-/ people sweat too much over this--Elveonora (talk) 12:43, December 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * Don't know what is with the hate Seelentau. We all knew Madara being Madara would have some sort of plot armor to protect him against 8 giant monsters, but this was the best chapter I've read in a while. Nothing, absolutely nothing was more satisfying than watching the big bad Madara get his ass beat for an entire chapter.
 * On topic though, it would make sense that he could still use Sharingan or Rinnegan techniques without eyes, particularly the ones that don't cast from the eyes. We are still iffy on the Preta Path, but Susanoo, which does not cast directly from the eye makes sense.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:01, December 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Because it wouldn't be classified as a Dōjutsu when you don't need your eyes (or eyes at all) to use it. This is a retcon of the most bullshittiest sort, it's on par with Tobito. Have you read the recent OP chapter? Now that's how you "revive" a dead character, not like Kishi did. I already added it to the Dōjutsu article, because I obey Kishi's doings, but I'm still mad at him for effing his manga up this way. Seelentau 愛議 13:13, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Kamui doesn't require Mangekyou active either and as well doesn't seem to harm the eyes (although eyes appear to be a must). I agree with the doujutsu classification part, but well, canon changes as it's being written still. As stated it makes lots of sense, the Susanoo doesn't come out of the eyes, it doesn't make them bleed or go blind, so it's okay. What is a retcon and a bull**** plothole is what Kishi told us through Tobirama chapters back about special Uchiha brain chakra. According to that, an Uchiha's eyes are no different from an ordinary human's that being until the special chakra runs through, making them transform. With that said, Kakashi and Danzo shouldn't be possible, since their brains do not create more of it and what's left in the eyes would eventually run out, unless I'm missing something. If you would be that nice, I would like a translation of that if you don't mind--Elveonora (talk) 13:41, December 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * I don't think it should suddenly be assumed that using Susanoo without the Mangekyo is a normal occurrence rather than some sort of special case. If it were so simple, then why would Sasuke have wasted most of his vision maintaining his Mangekyo while using Susanoo, for example? I also don't recall any manga panels showing Kamui without the Mangekyo active; isn't that an anime-only mistake? The only other instance of something like this that I can think of is when Itachi first used Susanoo while his eyes were nearly blinded, but we don't know for certain what state his eyes were in at the time. The lack of shading in them could mean that the Mangekyo was still active but its pattern was fading or something.--BeyondRed (talk) 14:02, December 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Almost blind eyes are still eyes though. What Madara pulled off is trolling the logic of that universe. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:06, December 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * And trolling logic is perfectly in character for Madara. >_>--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 15:09, December 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm with Ultimate on this one. Nothing in this chapter could possibly ruin the fact that Madara was basically used as a ping-pong ball by the Bijū this entire chapter. Its like Kishi knew my birthday was tomorrow xDDDD I was rather pissed that he can just pop his eye back in like nothing ever happened. I still say that was the Preta Path we saw him using last chapter. He absorbed, not only Amaterasu, but the Kyuubi's chakra out of that shinobi at the end, right as his arm healed, coincidentally. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 16:23, December 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't see problems with Madara's use of the Susanoo in chapter 657 me too: the jutsu needs of the eyes for being awakened but then it should be treated like a sort of summoned spirit; personally I've always had the impression that was more tied to the spirit of the user than to his eyes, considering the use of Itachi in his almost blindness or the fact that Susanoo is able to drain your own life energy (on the opposite of the other MS jutsu that are only able to deteriorate your sight).--JK88 (talk) 16:36, December 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * That may very well be what Kishimoto is going for now, but it doesn't change the fact that, excluding these couple of incidents, Uchiha have always had the Mangekyo active while Susanoo is in use and they have often activated and deactivated both at the same time, which further cements the idea that the Mangekyo is a requirement. Even as recently as when Madara was first reincarnated, he activated his Eternal Mangekyo the moment his Susanoo debuted and then never deactivated it. On the other hand, Sasuke regularly reverts to his normal Sharingan, but he never does it while Susanoo is active. The same is true with Obito and Kamui. Madara may very well be doing something special right now to use Susanoo (and possibly Preta Path) without actually having the eyes.--BeyondRed (talk) 16:46, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

I can be wrong but maybe it's related to his yin-yang kekkei genkai...maybe he does all this through this power...he realizes his will...you're all familiar with it so I'm not gonna say anything more...just bare this factor in mind too... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 21:41, December 11, 2013 (UTC)--DARK ZER06 (talk) 21:43, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with JK88. The Uchiha clan ancestor inherited not only the eyes of Hagoromo Ootsutsuki, his father, the Sage of Six Paths, but also his spiritual energy. So Susanoo functioning as a summoned spirit after being activated with Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu for the first time seems logical. WindStar7125 (talk) 21:56, December 11, 2013 (UTC)WindStar7125

Body Modification
Should it not be mentioned he now has a Zetsu arm to replace his real one? &#34;I&#39;m a very neat monster.&#34; (talk) 15:56, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Added.--Marc Zaddy (talk) 16:05, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Senjutsu
Please add a Senjutsu section on this page. Madara can't do Sage mode on his own, but in the new chapter it is shown that he absorbed hashirama's senjutsu chakra and is using it himself, so technically, he can do sage mode. ThePowerPotato (talk) 07:32, December 17, 2013 (UTC)
 * He's done nothing with it, nothing to add. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:18, December 17, 2013 (UTC)

Once again.. main villain?
I know this has been brought up time and time again but now that Obito's been TNJ'd and there's pretty much nobody else to fit the criteria, should we consider Madara the central antagonist of Part II? Everything that's happened basically stems from his actions, and as Zetsu said Obito's been nothing but a pawn in his plan, as was Nagato. Thoughts? --Mandon (talk) 08:16, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * And once again, no. Madara himself has only been a problem I'm the last legs of the arc. He can easily be classifies as the Bigger Bad behind Tobi, but he is by no means the central antagonist.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 09:16, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * If anything, Madara is the central antagonist of the newest arc (whatever we are calling the arc after Ten-Tails Revival) but THE central villian of Part II, no.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 09:21, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * If it hadn't been for Madara coming up with new world order plan, resurrection plan, cloned plant men, faces on chests (and elsewhere too) among other shi*, Obito wouldn't have been villain at all, presumably. Give the guy some credit.--Elveonora (talk) 13:55, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not not giving the guy his credit. I even said, he can be considered the Bigger Bad. But to call him the overarching main villain of everything ever is a little much for a guy who hasn't appeared until the very end.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:07, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Main villain of the (latest) arc seems fine, but definitely not the entire part 2~Ultimate Supreme  14:13, December 18, 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't matter when he chronologically appeared, Madara IS the overarching villain of everything. Maybe calling him the central antagonist of the series is pushing it, but it's not overstepping it to say that he's the cause of everything bad that's happened up until now. Everything major that hasn't been caused by Orochimaru, Kabuto or Sasuke anyways. --Mandon (talk) 21:05, December 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * It does matter as we can't call him the main villain of Part 2 if prior to him being summoned by Kabuto, he wasn't actively causing most of the problems in Part 2, which was mostly Akatsuki led by Nagato as the main villains of Part 2. Kabuto, Obito and Madara have only been the main villains for 1 or 2 arcs, much less than Nagato was. TricksterKing (talk) 23:25, December 18, 2013 (UTC)

He is absolutely not the main villain. The Nine-Tails attack on Konoha and the Uchiha clan massacre were caused by Obito, the leader of Akatsuki that was running things for 90% part 2 was Obito, and the man who started the 4th shinobi world war was Obito. Sure he became good in the end, but it was Obito who was chiefly responsible for most of the misery in the series. Obito never intended to revive Madara or allow him to become the Ten-Tails Jinchuriki, he is only here by pure coincidence in the form of Kabuto's intervention. He didn't even have enough power to control Obito and if it wasn't for the efforts of the Shinobi Alliance he would not have been able to control Obito. He has only been a threat for a very small amount of time in the grand scheme of things; the villain that received the most focus, has the most development, caused the most death and destruction, and has the strongest connections to the main characters is Obito, not Madara.

Kenny U (talk) 23:46, December 19, 2013 (UTC) Kenny U

Bad logic. If Madara isn't the main villain, who is? Obito? I think that ship has sailed, he's now sailed into Nagato territory so it's impossible to consider him the main villain. I do agree with everyone else though to at least some degree, but the facts still remain that Madara is inadvertently the cause of every single bad thing that's affiliated with the Akatsuki, Nagato, and Obito's actions.. which is like 90% of all the bad stuff that's happened. The other 8% would be Orochimaru and people affiliated with him, and the other 2% are people like Zabuza who weren't affiliated with anyone. But with that being said, Madara is still responsible for the vast majority of the stuff that's happened. The Nine Tails attack was part of Madara's plan, not Obito's. So given the current events, it isn't a stretch to acknowledge Obito as a secondary antagonist, along with Nagato. --Mandon (talk) 06:55, December 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * Being the cause of those events isn't enough to make him a main antagonist and he wasn't even technically the cause. He planted an idea in Obito's head and then died. Obito is the main antagonist of Part II, like it or lump it. He is the one that has orchestrated every single villainous plot point, save for those started by Orochimaru's faction. It was he that pressured Yahiko to start Akatsuki, not Madara. It was he that assisted Itachi with the Uchiha Massacre, not Madara. He who attacked Konoha with the Nine-Tails, not Madara. He who started and lead the war, not Madara. He who became the Ten-Tails Jinchūriki and very nearly completed the Eye of the Moon Plan, not Madara. He who is the foil to the main protagonist, which is often a major trait of main antagonists, not Madara. Madara is a major antagonist, but he is in no way shape or form the main antagonist. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 07:19, December 23, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but I like to think that if there is a definitive main antagonist, then it wouldn't be a character who's beaten and pushed aside for another villain. You can't get away with calling Obito the main villain anymore. You can say he WAS one of the the main antagonists up until the Ten Tails' Revival Arc, but now that's no longer the case. Everything Obito did was part of Madara's plan. He didn't have the initiative to do any of these things himself.. and therefore as I said, Obito is no more the main villain than Nagato was. So calling Obito the main villain, and Madara a major antagonist at this point has no basis of logic whatsoever. --Mandon (talk) 19:39, December 24, 2013 (UTC)
 * The question was if we should call Madara the main villain of Part 2 and we can't do that because he only showed up during the war arc, there were about 6 arcs before that where he was uninvolved, Nagato and Obito were the ones responsible for Akatsuki going after the Tailed Beasts. Madara might be responsible for creating the Moon's Eye Plan and setting up Obito to complete it while Madara was dead but that happened prior to Part 1 chronologically and he hasn't been actively causing trouble until Kabuto summoned him during the war. Madara is an important part of the story but Antagonist implies that he was personally causing the problems of Part 2 which isn't the case. TricksterKing (talk) 23:15, December 24, 2013 (UTC)

The fact still remains that Madara's been a consistent presence in the story. It doesn't matter when he appeared, because up until he did we still thought Obito was Madara. I should note that I'm basing this conversation off a sense of utter confusion. It's hard to know how to feel about the villains and their roles anymore, because it's very clear from how Kishi's been writing Obito's character from Madara's reveal to the present chapter that he dropped any notion of Obito being a main antagonist. It was easy to just say he was one of them up until now, but currently I think it's fair to say Madara's currently the main antagonist. But yeah, I don't know what I was thinking by suggesting we note him as the central antagonist. I think it's fine as is, so no need for further discussion. --Mandon (talk) 03:04, December 25, 2013 (UTC)

flight technique
didn't madara in the latest episode use the flight technique when he flew to obit's side or did Obito just summon him Fanking (talk) 20:52, December 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * No. We don't know exactly how he did it, but he certainly wasn't flying. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:05, December 21, 2013 (UTC)

Trimming down
So, as many who go through recent changes know, Madara's article has been a hotspot for editing since he came out of that coffin. While going through it, I decided to take a look a certain parameters, and see how it compares to other important articles:

If you've been around since the beginning of the war, give or take a couple months, you'll remember that we took the proverbial knife and cut down Naruto's article, since it was very big, and overly convoluted. Some sections, particularly the ability ones, instead of giving a solid overview of an aspect of the area, went on and on, practically listing every single feat that involved it, in painstaking detail, amounting to a monolithic dissertation. For example, his Rasengan section listed almost each and every Rasengan variant. His intelligence section listed almost every time he used a shadow clone to dupe an enemy. If I recall correctly, either Simant or Snapper worked to great effect in that. Now let's look at those numbers above. Madara's article is the smallest one, which is to be expected, since that out of the four, he's the one with less panel-time, yet he's the one with most references, almost double the main character of the series. About half of Madara's article is his ability section, which is also where the majority of those references are. His personality section isn't as big, but is as reference-dense. Many sentences have multiple references through them, and sometimes a single piece of information has up to four or five references to it. Another recurring issue is the presence of repeated references without the use of "ref name", and many, many instances of barely different references, for example, same chapter but really close pages, or even something like chapter X pages 4 and 6, chapter X page 4, chapter X page 5, chapter X pages 5-6, and chapter X page 6. Obito's article is in a similar situation, though not to the same degree as Madara's. I propose we streamline Madara and Obito's articles, as we did with Naruto's. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 04:51, December 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Reducing the article size will be comparitively easier and a bot can easily fix same refs to
 * But I am not sure how to deal with almost same refs like  vs   and then
 * One possible way I can think of is to add only one (bulk) ref at the end of para like ~Ultimate Supreme  05:43, December 22, 2013 (UTC)


 * The trimming of Naruto's article never made it beyond the Abilities section. Because for all the talk on the talk page, only one person actually took the effort to do the work. That's usually how things go. That's probably how this will go.
 * Just looking over his Abilities section, I see some issues:
 * Taijutsu has three paragraphs, which is dumb. He is not Guy or Lee, taijutsu is not a main area of his fighting style, and several of the feats outlined aren't that impressive by Naruto standards.
 * Kenjutsu has its own section, despite the fact he's only used a sword once. (Merely being seen with a sword doesn't count as anything).
 * Two paragraphs exclusively about Susanoo.
 * All the sections about dojutsu state a lot of not-unique-to-Madara stuff.
 * Intelligence as a section I think tends to be a mistake. Unless it's someone like Shikamaru who makes clear application of his mind in the field, these sections are almost always replicates of the Personality section. And they grasp at straws: "He planned things decades in advance! He smart."
 * The Personality section bothers me more than the Abilities section, because it just goes on and on and on, beating a dead horse without nearly as much of a takeaway.
 * And of course the Plot section is long, but that's unrealistic to try and keep in check while the series is still going.
 * Searching for the word "also" is usually a good way to find sections that need fixing. Because it tends to be a sign that whoever put a piece of information there had nowhere else to put it (in which case it maybe shouldn't have gone anywhere) or they were too lazy to work it into an existing sentence (in which case it may be restating what's been said, or perhaps even re-restating). I've got this example from Obito's article about that, but there are plenty in this article also.
 * But like I said, I'm not horribly optimistic that there'll be a focused effort to remedy this.
 * What I am interested in, though, is the reference debacle. Because twenty references to the same chapter strikes me as ridiculous. I've actually brought this up before in connection with revamping the referencing practice, but neither proposal went anywhere. Since a theoretical streamlining of references has a greater potential of having more than one person involved, I think that's maybe a more fruitful enterprise to pursue. ~SnapperTo 05:57, December 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * I started work on trimming down the endgame battles in the Forth Shinobi World War article. Then life got stupid. Life is less stupid so I should be able to start that little project up again.
 * But yeah, I can take a hatchet to some articles if aid is needed.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:36, December 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Also couldn't you force the Reference change? So long as it is for the good of the wikia?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:40, December 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Then I got bored and made this User:TheUltimate3/Madara's Abilities. I completely removed chakra, intelligence, kenjutsu and bukijutsu, shortened the intro and taijutsu. Ninjutsu needs a look over again as I couldn't tell what was just fluff and what is actually needed, though we could probably ignore most of the Fire Techniques and make only mention of the Annihilation one, as that seems to be his favorite and I was to lazy to look at Dojutsu so I didn't touch those at all. I also didn't touch "Other Skills" because honestly that may just get the axe completely.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:59, December 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * I am still not sure what the reference change is.~Ultimate Supreme  12:33, December 22, 2013 (UTC)

I don't quite understand what that proposal entailed either. Can you dumb it down for me? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:56, December 22, 2013 (UTC)

I think the articles are better when larger Munchvtec (talk) 22:01, December 22, 2013 (UTC)munchvtec
 * More is not necessarily merrier. More information does not necessarily mean the article is more informative. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:09, December 22, 2013 (UTC)


 * The original reference proposal was just to make a template for references; it would eliminate the chance of errors and save users from needing to type out the whole ref string each time.
 * I co-opted that to make two further proposals:
 * Do what the Wikipedia character article does and have the superscript themselves be the actual references rather than refer readers to a dedicated reference section. This is somewhat easier to read and has the added benefit of getting rid of all of the repeated references to the same things.
 * Link the reference to the wiki's article on that media.
 * A visual example of this would be:
 * ... which produces...
 * Something.[ ch. 1 ]
 * Even if you don't feel duplicate references is a problem, and even if you don't think this type of superscript is the right solution, there should still be links to the wiki's chapter/episode/whatever articles. Because the wiki's got over a thousand of them, and none are ever linked to outside of infoboxes. ~SnapperTo 22:29, December 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * I alphabetized this article's [current] reference section just to illustrate how preposterously overdone certain references are. You can see it here.
 * Of this article's 198 references, only about 50 are actually unique. The current leader appears to be chapter 621, which is referenced an astounding ten separate times.
 * Special mention also goes out to this gem: "Chapters 639-658". That reference is so inexplicably unhelpful I don't even know where to begin with my criticism. ~SnapperTo 23:05, December 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * So we eliminate page numbers completely? If thats the case the current implementation could work better.~Ultimate Supreme  03:41, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * Which part of the current implementation? The mouse-over? The mouse-over is no better than a superscript-as-ref if there are no page numbers, and is less immediately informative.
 * Or do you just mean pushing everything to a reference section? That is also less immediately informative. Plus, if there are no page numbers, articles such as this would have a reference section filled with:
 * ↑ 1.0 1.1 1.2 1.3 1.4 1.5 1.6 1.7 1.8 1.9 1.10 1.11 1.12 1.13 Chapter 1
 * I'm not sure that's much of an improvement. ~SnapperTo 04:08, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * It atleast won't use smw. I am not even sure if wikia would even allow such a thing.
 * Neither does it involve creating a thousand redirects just for fixing some refs.
 * The current implementation would be much easier to fix throughout the wiki if its decieded to eliminate page nos. completely.~Ultimate Supreme  04:24, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * So, what, you want to get rid of page numbers without bothering with a template or media links of any form? That'd be creating a whole new definition of the word "improvement". ~SnapperTo 04:42, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * So, what, you want to get rid of page numbers without bothering with a template or media links of any form? That'd be creating a whole new definition of the word "improvement". ~SnapperTo 04:42, December 23, 2013 (UTC)

Ok to come back to this discussion, close to one week later and no noticeable change has occurred. May have to bite the bullet on this one and grudgingly accept that this article, like Tobi's, and Naruto's, and anyone else people can fanboy over, will be long as holy hell.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 11:52, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree that we need to get these trimmed down to manageable proportions. The problem is, along with the fact that we don't have many people willing, or like myself, willing but don't really have the time at present, is that once we do in fact start the butchering, other people come back and either revert it or else just readd more content to the articles until they get unwieldy again. I speak from experience on that one as there are literally times I have to come on and monitor those articles every day.

Question though: are the plot sections included in this? --Cerez 365 ™(talk) 18:10, December 28, 2013 (UTC)


 * Plot was unofficially agreed upon that as long as the story is set to "ongoing" trying to shorten that was madness. Basically, one could gut closed arcs but the current ones would be impossible to work with.
 * Now, I have time to make edits. I have time to gut any article anyone points me to. The problem is, as shown below, that unless I want to wave my "Admin Power Rawr" badge around, I cannot just gut sections without people undoing it, telling me that all the information is "needed" and screw me for trying to ruin such a long and beautiful article. I mean, look at the Trimming Down: Abilities section below. I summed it up that the article is written as a long fanboy circle jerk but because "things happened" it cannot be removed because the fanboys want to keep it there.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 21:48, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * I mean, Steveo did some minor edits, but I truly believe those were just trying to pacify me to not delete the random sections that plague Madara's article, sections that are in no way actually needed but I can't get rid of without abusing my Sysop status.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 21:53, December 28, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well then. Unless anyone wishes to add anything further I would say this attempt had failed and this topic is unofficially dead.-TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 09:22, January 3, 2014 (UTC)

finally seriously why did you do this from begin wiht many think that articles are better wehn telling everything and not what certain ppl think of whats important. also nobody was eager to help so it was clear from begining this was all not neededIloveinoxxx (talk) 10:18, January 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well aren't you a productive member of this community. But sadly you would seem correct not enough important people seem to care.-TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 10:44, January 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well arent you a awesome sysop for making fun of inexpierineced members, like with munchvtec. anyway, topic is done, madara stays with what he deserves. the end. Iloveinoxxx (talk) 10:51, January 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * /shrug For now anyway. You are right though I am an Sysop. I may decide to take the initiative and bring about a necessary change for the good of the Wikia. But that is another battle for another time. I've got something bigger to worry about.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:56, January 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * And yes, if you don't actually contribute beyond circlejerking an article, gloat with poor sentence structure, and come with a name that rings a few alarm bells, don't be surprised when I politely tease. Just one of the many ways I do to push new users, such as yourself, to being better than you currently are.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:59, January 3, 2014 (UTC)

Well kudos to your politely contributions, you sure are successful in what you're doing! Iloveinoxxx (talk) 13:31, January 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * And the only mistake in your structure there was "politey contributions" where it should have been "polite contribution". Far better than before so I would say I was successful. :D --TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:54, January 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, so am I. Have a nice day! :) Iloveinoxxx (talk) 14:00, January 3, 2014 (UTC)

Trimming Down: Abilities
To avoid further edit war, I am adding this here with my intentions. Namely, the complete removal of Bukijutsu, kenjutsu and Intelligence from his abilities section. As well as general trimming down of the prose and circlejerking his section is full of. Because quite frankly, his intelligence should go under Personality, and bukijutsu and kenjutsu are literally only worth a sentence because they aren't that important most of his fighting style was focused around Susanoo, with very little use of a sword or gubai.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 23:50, December 22, 2013 (UTC)


 * I understand what you are saying, but that is also like saying that Shikamaru's intelligence is not a defining attribute to him. Similar, Itachi's signature ability wasn't shurikens, but was still a noticeable skill of his. Steveo920, 18:56 December 22, 2013


 * Seriously, I am all for making this page sleeker, I've been reducing all day to help out. Not just the abilities section, but the personality section as well. I just think that if the character shows noticeable skill in it, it should be mention to some extent. Steveo920, 19:-1, December 22, 2013


 * The issue is though intelligence is not Madara's defining feature. Madara's defining ability is his dojutsu. He is smart no denying that, but it is not a defining ability. Same with kenjutsu and bukijustsu, he for the most part uses them. But he isn't defined by them. Its not the same situation of Shikamaru or Tenten, both or are defined by their intelligence and weapon techniques respectively. Both ken and bukijutsu can be mentioned, they should be mentioned, but it is not worth a large section which continues to just read like a circlejerk of how awesome Madara is.
 * Like that's the second part of the problem. We don't need to have multiple mentions of how Madara can pwn fodder shinobi with no effort. We don't need to literally repeat some of his great feats multiple times in multiple sections. That was what I was trying to do to trim this down, I removed repeated actions and dropped ones that are quite frankly pointless (Mentioning his can battle an entire army is fine. Mentioning he can battle an entire army multiple times and it becomes a circlejerk.)--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 00:08, December 23, 2013 (UTC)

Everything should be mentioned, im agaisnt taking certain thing out Munchvtec (talk) 00:29, December 23, 2013 (UTC)munchvtec


 * Good contribution. Now tell us how you really feel or you just like the circlejerk of information Madara's page has devolved into?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 00:31, December 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree, little things shouldn't be blown out of proportion, that's why I am still gragually trimming it down myself, but to act like they had no involvement at all is like saying they have no ability for it all. Hashirama's life force and chakra is a key aspect to Madara's plan, but it wasn't a defining attribute to Hashirama himself. Whats-more, Madara's weapon and intelligence traits are noticeable as he was known for his gunbai and his intelligence played an important role to the development of the world, having manipulated so much from beyond the grave. Steveo920, 19:30, December 22, 2013


 * To be honest, your trimming down seems more phoned in. And you are still blowing things out to be bigger than they need to be. As I said he has used his gubai and that can be mentioned, but not to such a degree that he needs entire section dedicated to it. We don't need a section on his intelligence because "he manipulated things from the grave". He actually didn't, he had Tobi do his works for him, and had Kabuto not revived Madara, Tobi would have been alone with the Ten-Tails. We can mention he is smart fine, but he does not need an entire section based on his intelligence at least not in his Abilities section. So yes, even "important role to the development of the world" is overhyping him. The problem is that much of what is in the article is overhype. Things need to actually be removed to solve this problem not trying to dance around the issue.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 00:45, December 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay, I'll admit that by statement about his intelligence wasn't thought out, I guess I was getting a little emotional since I seriously put so much work into my edits, but the way you are saying it, characters like Kakashi don't need an intellgence section. It isn't his most defining but it place a huge role on how he operates. Steveo920, 19:53, December 22, 2013


 * I'm of the same mind as Ultimate, honestly, and for every page. Not just Madara. I don't know when it became acceptable that every single sneeze a character makes is mentioned in the ability section, but its needless, and takes up space that could be used by actual useful information. The abilities section should give a summary—key word here—of Madara's defining capabilities. His dōjutsu, to name the most significant. Trimming bukijutsu and intelligence, or even outright removing them, would be fine. Madara hasn't even used his fan since he first arrived back on the battlefield, and, I'm sorry, while he's skilled with other weapons, they clearly aren't his main mode of attack. Not to mention, the abilities section was mostly buffed up by a select few who seem to worship Madara's ever action, adding in needless "junk info" along with a ton of unneeded references. These articles aren't meant to recount every single action in the series done by these characters, verbatim. It is to give a summary. If people want to know that Madara Uchiha was capable of using a fan to blow away Naruto, then they can visit the Jutsu page, or read the manga, but it certainly doesn't need an entire section dedicated to it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 00:56, December 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * If you want to reduce the sections, I will have no problem with that. I just think that if they show more than average skill in the said area, it should be noted. It's kind of like how on various pages a character's limits are noted, like Itahci not being able to defeat Jiraiya. Its not defining, but it paints a clearer picture on what the character can do. 2Steveo920, 20:09, December 22, 2012
 * Except this isn't about his limit, its nothing but circlejerking around how he is close to being a god. We could mention him being legendary and strong but instead the article throws extreme focus on him wrecking or hyping up little things he does. Honestly skills outside of dojutsu and nature transformations can be summed up as "Highly skilled in taijutsu and various weapons, particularly his gumbai". That is literally all that needs to be said about kenjutsu bukijutsu and taijutsu yet the article has 3 different sections about them.-TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 01:40, December 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay, I'll admit I don't even know what "circlejerking" is exactly, but I'm not trying to overhype anything> I just want to give readers a better idea than just thinking a character is good at something when there is more information. To go overboard about how he is close to being a god from intelligence or weapon skills would be like saying he is borderline clairvoyant or he no army in the world could stand against him respectively. Steveo920, 20:48, December 22, 2012

In my opinion, I find trimming down Madara's article to be pointless. 100,000 some bytes is hardly that bad, and furthermore, given that the manga is scheduled to end in 2014 (so probably in a little more than two months or three), it's not like there's that much more information that will be given on Madara. Furthermore, Bukijutsu and whatnot are crucial to a character. The purpose of a Wikia site for information is to give readers a thorough guideline about characters and other associated things, so to shorten it to only bare essentials and cutting out what we consider "unimportant" is silly. As a canon site, we should present exactly what Kishi gives us through the chapters, not shortening it and summarizing it to how we personally fancy it. I dunno, just my two cents. --Silver-Haired Seireitou (talk) 05:07, December 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * Except the wikia was never supposed to be an alternative to actually reading the manga/watching the anime. Sections like abilities are supposed to be summuries, not word for word dick jerking of a particular character where every single thing they do is consider the Kings Gold and hyped as if it is an intergral part of the character.-TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 10:33, December 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * Various characters have various abilities that aren't the most prominent, but still give an overall idea what they can do. Kakashi specializes in ninjutsu supplemented by his Sharingan, yet he is still a highly skilled taijutsu user, one of few able to use any of the Eight Gates, which he rarely uses but is still noteworthy. Steveo920. 10:51, Dec 23, 2013


 * Okay, but you're equating "noteworthy" as an excuse to write an entire novel and dedicate a unique section to the skill. Even your example can be summed up as, "Kakashi is a talented user of taijutsu, being one of the few shinobi capable of opening the Eight Gates". Bingo. Done. Not five paragraphs on everytime he successfully landed a punch on a villain. Ultimate is absolutely right. This wiki is not an alternative for the manga. If you want to know every single skill a character has, that is what the story is for. Summaries are what we are supposed to give: nothing further. That is what a Wikia—an encyclopedia—is meant for. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 19:37, December 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * No, my point about Kakashi isn't that he can use the eight gates, its that his abilities in the taijutsu are more than just basic. Again, I am not trying to glorify it or right an entire "novel" as you put it, I am just saying that needs more detail. Steveo920, 14:50, December 23, 2013


 * No, it really doesn't need more detail. Detail is for the manga to work out. We work out summaries. Plain and simple. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:01, December 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm in full agreement of trimming down this article (and some others, but that's for another time). Madara Uchiha is one of the series' most popular characters among the fans, so it is easy to subconsciously blow his feats out of proportion. Emphasis should be on his dojutsu prowess, but everything should be concise and summarized. I can help out with the personality section as well though, since I've done minor work in said areas in the past. --Kakashi Namikaze - talk 14:20, December 25, 2013 (UTC)

Elderly pic for infobox?
Currently it's the most recent pic of Madara when he was alive that's animated. The current photo doesn't show his revived self at all so what do you guys think? --Mandon (talk) 17:46, January 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * ...But he's regained his youth...that was from a flashback. --OmegaRasengan (talk) 17:49, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

There's currently no image of him post rinne-tensei in the anime though. The one we're currently using doesn't even resemble his current appearance, it's just a pic of him in his edo-tensei form. --Mandon (talk) 17:52, January 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Look, what is posted in the infobox is what the character currently looks like the anime. Once Hashirama vs. Madara is animated, a pic of living Madara will likely be uploaded. Until then, this will suffice.--OmegaRasengan (talk) 17:57, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

Well I don't know much about the image guidelines EDIT: By that I mean the factors in choosing an infobox image. not the actual guidelines, but I'm just saying the current image isn't a photo of him while he's alive. And he doesn't look exactly like that in the current chapters. We thought his post-RT appearance would resemble his edo tensei body and that's why the image was decided upon, but clearly that wasn't the case. --Mandon (talk) 18:03, January 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * There is absolutely no way the picture of Elderly Madara is gonna be used. The picture we have is the closet to an image we've known him throughout the entire manga, not just 2 chapters. So I repeat, there is absolutely no way that picture is gonna be used.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 22:46, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

You don't have the authority to make that decision, Ultimate. I brought up this discussion so that everyone can decide which photo would be best. So far you and Omega have spoken out against it, and I've voiced why I'm for it, so let's see what everyone else thinks. My point still stands, the current photo isn't a living photo of him. The sole reason it was even considered was because we thought that's how he would look after being revived, since his eyes didn't burn out until the next chapter, so whether or not we use his elderly appearance, I don't think the current image is appropriate for the infobox. Those are just my thoughts. --Mandon (talk) 00:33, January 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * First, it's TheUltimate3 and I accept TU3 for short. Second, ain't no way photo of old elderly Madara is gonna be used, especially when that is by far his least notable appearance in the manga/anime/whatever.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 02:16, January 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Third a picture of him alive is preferred, but not when it is completely contradictory to what we have seen him in most of the series. We've seen old man Madara in two chapters. We've seen young, ready to fight Madara for a quarter of the manga. It's not rocket science on which one will be used. And beacuse you made this topic I will give you a hint; it will not be Elderly Madara.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 02:17, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

Does it matter what I call you? You know I'm talking to you so it matters not. Back on topic.. Old Man Madara is the most recent living picture of him. We used a photo of adult Nagato after the pain arc even though we technically saw a lot more of him as a child, so I don't exactly buy that argument. In any case I really don't care which photo we use, as long as it isn't a photo where he's reanimated. I'm going strictly by the reason we used it originally, which was that we thought that's how he would look after his true revival. It wasn't, so we should change it back to the old picture from Onoki's flashback or use a photo of him as an old man as a placeholder since it's more recent. I've raised my points and you've raised yours, and unless someone else comments there's no chance of it being changed anyways so let's see where this goes. --Mandon (talk) 02:59, January 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * Yes what I'm called is very important. I don't call you MadaraFan01 do it?
 * But seriously the picture of him doesn't even look like he was Reincarnated, the only way you'll know is if you read the manga. And we don't work for just them. We work for the fandom as a whole, and as a whole, adult Madara with red armor is his most iconic appearance. Old Man Madara is not. There is absolutely no reason to use an image of him at his most obscure, other than my personal president that we use images of them alive.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 03:07, January 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * Is there an actual precedent against edo tensei images? If the anime offers no good living options and, in fact, Madara has spent a majority of his screentime as an edo tensei, what's wrong with using it? When the anime reaches Hashirama's flashbacks then, sure, replace it with a living photo. But in the meantime...? ~SnapperTo 03:30, January 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * No there isn't. Or at least there shouldn't be. I have just been very vocal in the past about, if available, having a picture of a character alive instead of the cracks and black eyes of Reincarnation. But Madara here shows no visible signs of Reincarnation so even by my old standards, he passes.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 03:32, January 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * Sort of a convenient misrepresentation, no? Yet it still isn't a particularly good image. Are you going to insist on an inferior picture merely because of some not-actual guideline? I would point out that Mū is in the same boat, where there are living options, but they aren't used because they are a) bad, and b) he's known better dead anyway.
 * There's also Gari and Pakura, but they've probably got some complicated manga > anime reasoning I wouldn't follow... ~SnapperTo 03:48, January 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * Not sure if you are still speaking to me or Mandon... If it's at me, I just don't want Elder Madara and see no reason to use it.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 03:57, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

There's a difference. I'm not calling you something obscure that has no relevance to your name. if I call you ultimate you at least know I'm talking to you. It's not a big deal. Anyways, there are plenty of images to use Snapper. In fact, we've used them before we switched to the corrent photo. The greyscaled image of him with his gunbai for example, or the one from Onoki's flashback. And if we're allowed to use Edo Tensei photos, there are plenty of images better than the one we're currently using. --Mandon (talk) 05:33, January 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * I was speaking to TheUltimateMuscle, just in case anyone wanted to know.
 * My point was that there are currently no good images of living Madara from the anime. He's either too old, too grayscaled, or wearing too much atypical clothing. In the absence of a good living image, I see no reason to not use a good dead image, at least until such time that there is a good living image. ~SnapperTo 08:08, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

Well if we all come to an agreement that ET images with noticable ET traits like cracks and black sclera are okay, then we can easily snuff out a better image than the one we're currently using. --Mandon (talk) 09:15, January 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * Not sure if it's still relevant, but to answer your question about why Gari and Pakura images, pictures of them Reincarnated was chosen because the only not-Reincarnated pictures that exist for them is Anime-Only, and everyone should be well aware by now how much that is a buzz-word around here.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:31, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

Why can't we make a compromise??? Do people have to be so stubborn and egocentric? Can someone explain why can't we use both manga and anime images? In my opinion that would be the best, with manga image of his current revived status and anime image of his last recent living appearance, which would be (fortunately not to Ulti's delight) the grandpa one--Elveonora (talk) 13:43, January 10, 2014 (UTC)