Forum:Primary source

I know this may be futile and it might come across as arrogant and elitist, but this is an issue that's been really bothering me for a long time.

As it is, the primary source used for this wiki is the "official" English translation of the Naruto manga and anime; the original Japanese source is only used for those chapters and episodes which have yet to be "officially" translated.

I was hoping we could change this policy and use the original Japanese version as our primary source. I have multiple reasons for this:


 * 1) The original Japanese version is the version most true to how Kishimoto-sensei intended the series to be.
 * 2) The original Japanese version is widely available on the Internet. The "official" English translation isn't.
 * 3) The "official" English translation has been known to vary greatly in the translations used. Using the original Japanese version allows greater consistency.
 * 4) Using the original Japanese version means names and such don't have to be altered each time an "official" English translation comes out.
 * 5) The "official" English translation used is very much biased to the US. It should be obvious that the people visiting our site come from all over the globe.
 * 6) Most everyone I know considers the original Japanese version the primary source of the series. In fact, most people despise the "official" English translations.
 * 7) Using the original Japanese version allows us to stay as true to the Japanese as possible, without having to rape the language because some guy in the US is either lazy, terrified of diacritics, or both.
 * 8) The "official" English translations are brought down in quality by many factors, including time and space constraints - which we don't have on the Internet.
 * 9) It would make me really, really happy.

So I hereby plea for us to change this policy. --ShounenSuki (talk 09:52, October 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry if I come off as an idiot, but I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. As in I have no idea how this would really change anything.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 11:25, October 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * Would this really have much of an effect? I think the only time the English series takes precedence is in regards to chapter/episode titles and whether or not to use a macron. Everywhere else it is merely noted what the English version is (ie., which should have been done with the Kisame episode). ~SnapperTo 17:23, October 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * The effect might not be that big, but it would make me feel so much better. To be able to read Chōji's article without cringing every time I see Choji... and as you said, the Japanese version is really already the de facto primary source of the wiki. Making it official would only increase the consistency and quality of the wiki. --ShounenSuki (talk 19:08, October 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * Personaly things like macrons are a non-issue to me. Some use them some don't, but I can say it would be an absolute b$(&@ to have to keep pressing that "ō" button every time something had to be written it had the misfortune of being spelled "ou". Beyond the unnecessary use of macrons, again I don't see how using the Japanese as the primary source going to change anything...as we already use the Japanese as the primary source.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 19:14, October 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * I take things like proper diacritics very serious. Not only because of my linguistic education, but also because my own name uses a diacritic. To me, those macrons are a very big issue and they were, in fact, the main reason I started this topic.
 * As for the trouble it would cause: it's quite easy to create a keyboard layout that allows you to simply type macrons. I also wouldn't mind keeping an eye out for missing macrons and I'm sure a bot could be used for this as well. --ShounenSuki (talk 22:31, October 20, 2009 (UTC)

That just seems like an unnecessary burden the drop on someone, willing or otherwise. However, I sense there is more to this than macrons, so I'm curious what else you had in mind.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 22:39, October 20, 2009 (UTC)


 * Well, I stated most of my reasons above already. However, there is another, minor thing that's been nagging me a bit. It's pretty silly, though.
 * I feel like somehow, I'm obsolete here. There's no need for me to translate anything when there's already an "official" translation available. I don't have access to these "official" translations, either. English manga are rare and very expensive here in the Netherlands. I feel like I'm slowly losing my relevance to this wiki. --ShounenSuki (talk 23:21, October 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * Titans help us. You are in no way obsolete here, damnmit man we'd be half dead without a databook translator readily available. Besides, Viz stuff is pretty much regulated to Viz names for jutsu and crap like that. Actual jutsu names, character names, explanations on what crap is said is all left to the translators; I.E. you. --TheUltimate3 (talk) 23:28, October 20, 2009 (UTC)
 * Is a Greek reference really the best of exclamations for an animanga wiki? I'm sure Shounensuki, with his limitless knowledge of Japanese, could suggest something better. ~SnapperTo 03:27, October 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * No Snapper....that was actually a Warcraft reference. It just means I play way to much World of Warcraft.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 10:56, October 21, 2009 (UTC)
 * I knew that... >_> Um, how about those Himalayans? They are predominately steep. ~SnapperTo 00:27, October 22, 2009 (UTC)

You knew? Wait a minute! (Sees a ball roll by) Ooooo, shiny red ball.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 00:29, October 22, 2009 (UTC)
 * Sorry for my late reply. I must say, I feel a lot better now. I guess I was a bit overreacting, but I still would like to bring back the macron. For the sake of consistency, professionalism, accuracy, and respect for the Japanese language and culture. --ShounenSuki (talk 15:16, October 25, 2009 (UTC)
 * I just found an example of what I want to change with this discussion. Maybe it will revive this forum and bring it to a conclusion.
 * If my proposal is accepted, it would involve changing Foundation to Root]. It would also involve changing [[Ninja Academy to Academy. --ShounenSuki (talk 02:27, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * I just want to point out Ninja Academy SHOULD just be Academy, because the kanji clearly states...it's just Academy. The other thing, yeah. It's all directly blow this comment I really don't need to say it again.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 02:43, November 16, 2009 (UTC)

Comment by Points

 * 1) The original Japanese version is the version most true to how Kishimoto-sensei intended the series to be.

I'm 95% sure that's what we already have up here.


 * 1) The original Japanese version is widely available on the Internet. The "official" English translation isn't.

'''That is true. Again per above, because really the only things that change is the names of characters, everything else gets that little viz= or engtv= thing. So I'm not sure what to say about this.'''


 * 1) The "official" English translation has been known to vary greatly in the translations used. Using the original Japanese version allows greater consistency.

'''Again, unless somehow all the translations you have been doing were wrong, we have been using the original Japanese, just putting it in English to make things easier on editors and visitors. Unless you intended a drastic change where Shadow Clone Technique is listed as Kage Bunshin no Jutsu to which that requires a large wikiscale discussion.'''


 * 1) Using the original Japanese version means names and such don't have to be altered each time an "official" English translation comes out.

'''This is, again, what we've been doing. (Though the epic saga of Pein vs Pain does come to mind). Care to explain this a tad more.'''


 * 1) The "official" English translation used is very much biased to the US. It should be obvious that the people visiting our site come from all over the globe.

'''This however is true. It does seem quite a bit biased to the United States. Having one of our chief editors from the Netherlands, we should have considered this little hiccup a long time ago.'''


 * 1) Most everyone I know considers the original Japanese version the primary source of the series. In fact, most people despise the "official" English translations.

'''I'm not sure what to say about this one, except I will say this: While I don't despise the Viz translations, I do prefer whatever Japanese versions of things I can find. It just seems more natural. More discussion this point needs.'''


 * 1) Using the original Japanese version allows us to stay as true to the Japanese as possible, without having to rape the language because some guy in the US is either lazy, terrified of diacritics, or both.

'''Save for what we translate (Jutsu names, Land of Blah, ect) we are pretty consistent with the original Japanese. Again just you know,using the English language as opposed to the Japanese. Again, could you elaborate more?'''


 * 1) The "official" English translations are brought down in quality by many factors, including time and space constraints - which we don't have on the Internet.

Not sure what this have to do with anything to be honest.


 * 1) It would make me really, really happy.

Good for you.

My comments on your points are in bold, obviously. Haven't done that since the Great Ret Wars on the WoW Forums.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 23:58, October 20, 2009 (UTC)

Audience
Just on the note about audience: http://www.quantcast.com/naruto.wikia.com#country

The US is our primary audience. 43% of our visitors are from the US, the percentages from anywhere else dwindle, 8% from Germany, 5% from the Philippines, 5% from Canada, 4.9% from the United Kingdom, and the rest drop off to 2% or less. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Nov 16, 2009 @ 04:20 (UTC)
 * Still see no reason why we should pander to ourselves (i iz amerikan) Keep it open to everyone I say, no favoritism, no bias.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 04:25, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * After all, 43% of our visitors coming from the US means that 57% is not from the US and of the US visitors, there is most likely a sizeable group who prefers the Japanese over the official US version. --ShounenSuki (talk 07:34, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * If you care to pick at numbers grouping countries together; 51.22% of our audience is from North America, 25.85% is from Europe, 13.88% is from all of Asia (Not Jap/China, Asia, which includes India, etc...), 3.57% is from South America, 2.64% is from Australia, 1% is from various Island countries, 0.38% comes from Central America, 0.36% comes from Africa, 0.22% comes from Russia and Kazakhstan, another 0.02% comes from Anonymous Proxies, 0.01% from Satellite providers (unknown location), and the remaining 0.85% goes to the various countries that each amount to <0.01% of traffic and thus don't have a percent listed.
 * Just to note, while 13.88% is from Asia, our traffic from Japan amounts to 0.17%. The majority of our "Asia" traffic is from the non-CJK countries in Asia. Our CJK traffic amounts to almost nothing. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Nov 16, 2009 @ 19:53 (UTC)
 * You know, chatting about countries of origin really isn't all that productive. What we should find out is how many of our visitors use the official English translation and how many use the original Japanese version (and its various direct translations). Most of the Naruto fans I know use the original Japanese version. Is there a way to make a poll or something?
 * That said, I think it already came up that the original Japanese version is already the de facto primary source of the wiki. All I'm asking is to make it the de jure version as well. --ShounenSuki (talk 20:12, November 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * First: I don't know what de jure means.
 * Second: ShounenSuki has a point. I know almost no one who uses the English Viz versions for anything. Hell, I was trying to tell my roommate that we fixed the translation on Lighting Blade, and he had no idea what I was talking about until I used the word Raikari. I don't think there is a way to make a poll, mainly on the grounds that for it to mean jack diddily we'd have to use a forum...and...lord knows I want to avoid a forum.
 * Third: Again, my main thing is I don't like favoritism to one demographic over another. Yes we are a English speaking wiki, but that doesn't mean we have to pander to the English speakers. Everything is equal.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 21:12, November 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * De facto (concerning fact) means something is used in practice, but is not necessarily official. De jure (concerning law) means something is official, but not necessarily in used in practice. My apologies for using Latin legal lingo. --ShounenSuki (talk 21:34, November 16, 2009 (UTC)

A segue
I'm glad we had that nice, long conversation about macrons. ~SnapperTo 23:02, December 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * The sarcasm I sense is hilarious. But seriously. Let's get er done.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 23:28, December 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * I don't really care that much (though I have no intention of actively using them). But I think some of the switches were ill-advised. The episode articles' titles, for example, are word-for-word what Viz uses. If you're going to be moving those article in order to add macrons (which Viz doesn't use), you might as well be moving to the literal translation of the episode title. ~SnapperTo 23:45, December 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * I believe those were moved because a bot was told to pick out words and change them. Programming. No choice in what they change, they just find the match and change it.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 23:56, December 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * Which seems likely, though isn't ShounenSuki supposed to look over the edits before they are made? I assume that's why the transition took several hours instead of several minutes. ~SnapperTo 00:02, December 3, 2009 (UTC)


 * Possibly oversight? I don't know I'm not him.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 00:10, December 3, 2009 (UTC)

Bad concensus
This discussion doesn't sit right with me. This discussion was concluded between 3-4 people of a select group of the community, and old rationales and goals like Wikipedia compatibility and being recognized as not a fan-site have ignored and not brought up. Some of the statements also don't fit right by my logic.

Rather than continuing a discussion based on ill founded statements (like our audience, Kishimoto's opinions, etc... which we only have guesses at, nothing concrete) I'm going to do a bit of actual research and add in some community awareness. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Dec 18, 2009 @ 02:22 (UTC)


 * It wasn't so much as a consensus, as it was the discussion kinda stopped and things happened afterwards. That being said, I don't think the discussion ever really finished.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 03:01, December 18, 2009 (UTC)