Talk:Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi

Disk Shape
Is Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi actually disk shape with spikes on it or any shape with spikes on it? And is it possible that sasuke can make Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi on Susanoo's bones just like normal Amaterasu? ShounenSuki do you have an answer or no? Cooltamerboy (talk) 17:45, October 1, 2009 (UTC).
 * There is no way we can be sure, unless we see another instance of Kagutsuchi being used, or it is stated in the manga or databooks. --ShounenSuki (talk 22:34, October 1, 2009 (UTC)

Would it be possible to use it on amaterasu's bones? Cooltamerboy (talk) 08:37, October 2, 2009 (UTC).


 * Not a forum..--AlienGamer--Talk (contribs)-- 08:39, October 2, 2009 (UTC)


 * Ah, came in here to start a discussion about this, and I find that one has already been started! So... We know that "Kagutsuchi" is a technique that controls the flames of Amaterasu, to the extent of applying Shape Transformation to them. We've seen Sasuke using his right Mangekyou Sharingan in conjunction with his left to extinguish the flames back during the end of his fight with Killer B, and we know that the "Shield of Amaterasu" is a technique that is created through Shape Transformation(as mentioned by C, on page 15 of chapter 463). So I guess what I'm getting at, is shouldn't we have the Shield of Amaterasu article scrapped, and have all of that, along with the aforementioned act of extinguishing Amaterasu's flames, be a part of Kagutsuchi's technique description? Or do we REALLY have to wait for the next Databook to confirm it in another half a decade? :D--SaiST (talk)


 * Sasuke used the name only when he did the spikes, so I assume that the least speculative option is to list the shield as a separate article until more information is given, like Blaze Release being used again in the manga or until the next Databook, which I believe will be out sometime next year. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:04, October 25, 2010 (UTC)


 * So, took nearly two years, but here we are. Kagutsuchi isn't just the "spiked barrier", but is the name of the ability that allows Sasuke to apply Shape Transformation to to Amaterasu's flames. Both "Kagutsuchi", and "Enton" in general have to be reevaluated. SaiST (talk) 12:59, May 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * Not really. Blaze Release is still a weird nature release with unknown properties that manipulates Amaterasu. Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi is still the technique in which Sasuke uses to manipulate Amaterasu.--TheUltimate3 Uzumaki Symbol.svg (talk) 13:01, May 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * You just described the same thing. Also—"concentrated disk"? SaiST (talk) 13:10, May 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * I can't spell.
 * Two it sounds as if I am doesn't it. To put it clearer, Blaze Release is the Nature Release that allows Amaterasu to be controlled, like Water Release allows water to be controlled, Kagutsuchi is the jutsu that actually does manipulate Amaterasu, like Water Release: Water Prison manipulates water into a prison.--TheUltimate3 Uzumaki Symbol.svg (talk) 13:17, May 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * There's so much more I want to say, but it would lead into at least two other topics that have already been discussed to death here. So, moving on: Shouldn't we at least clarify that Kagutsuchi is the technique used to manipulate Amaterasu's flames, and that it is not limited to shaping them into any kind of spiked disk? Because Sasuke is clearly not using Kagutsuchi for that kind of application in this chapter, he's just using his Susanoo to swing a blade of Amaterasu's flames. SaiST (talk) 14:27, May 9, 2012 (UTC)

I changed the wording a bit to make it more inclusive(?) Ulti, I'm not 100% on what you meant by concentrated disks so if you need to re-add that be my guest.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 14:32, May 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't even know what I ment.--TheUltimate3 Uzumaki Symbol.svg (talk) 14:33, May 9, 2012 (UTC)

Mixing Names
Excuse me, but why is the literal english name (Blaze Release) put together with the japanese name (Kagutsuchi)? This has only done with special cases such as Rasengan, Chidori, and Kirin. I don't see why it should be a mixture, especially with such a simple name compared to Hokage-Style Sixty-Year-Old Technique — Kakuan Entering Society with Bliss-Bringing Hands (now there is an article whose name can be shortened). I fail to see why this mixture is made, rather than simply calling it Blaze Release: Added Tool Earth Lord.--Kagi mizu -Seeya 'round 06:52, September 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * It's the same special case as Kirin; Kirin is a mythical creature, and Kagutsuchi is a mythological figure. To use "Blaze Release: Added Tool Earth Lord" would be like using "Hashirama Thousand Hand". ~SnapperTo 07:12, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

Ah, so it's due to the fact that the name actually references an actual person/beast (mythological ones though), rather than just being a phrase or something.--Kagi mizu -Seeya 'round 07:28, September 8, 2010 (UTC)

episode 203
Where do you watch episode 203 shippuden???
 * google --Cerez☺ (talk) 14:34, March 17, 2011 (UTC)

Image
Isn't there an image from the anime that doesn't cut off the spikes of fire? You know, the one thing this image is supposed to depict? —ShounenSuki (talk 07:53, March 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Can we get back the manga image?  ~ Fmakck© → Talk → Contributions ~ 12:04, March 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * There's an anime image but the Raikage will be in it....--Cerez☺ (talk) 12:13, March 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * The Raikage doesn't really bother me that much, although it does somewhat take the focus off the actual technique in question. The quality seems to low to crop it nicely, too. —ShounenSuki (talk 12:34, March 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * I didn't bother cropping it because the shot's not a close up one so i doubt it'd be seen otherwise. The Raikage's foot would look weird just dangling there too--Cerez☺ (talk) 12:39, March 18, 2011 (UTC)

Shouldn't we have an image of when it is used as a sword? There is quite a difference.--Kotoamatsukami (talk) 09:46, October 9, 2012 (UTC)

2 pages
there are 2 pages with the same information on Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi but one has a picture from the anime and the other has one from the manga
 * One is the page about the Release, the other about the specific technique. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:51, March 18, 2011 (UTC)

Derived Techniques
With the confirmation that Kagutsuchi is in fact the ability to control and shape the flames, should not Shield of Black Flames and Blaze Release Magatama be listed as derived from it, rather than from Amaterasu itself? For that matter, should Shield of Black Flames still be listed as a technique at all?--BeyondRed (talk) 19:02, May 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think they should be considered derived techniques of this. I would hold off deleting those two pages for now, as one had a apt description, which we currently use as a name, and the other was a rather specific shape. If it turns out that all those are Kagutsuchi, we simply redirect the pages. We might not even have to wait for a databook. Remember that Dust Release cone Ōnoki used? We first treated it as a separate technique, but we later got confirmation it was the same technique. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:53, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

yeah it seems like a lot of kekkei genkai and other special abilties, have all it's uses in a single technique.98.26.240.179 (talk) 20:44, May 13, 2012 (UTC)yomiko-chan

Trivia
In the latest chapter, the Furigana for 加具土命 are written using Hiragana and not Katakana, as it was done before. Are there any other times when Sasuke used this? Seelentau 愛議 16:35, May 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * He's only ever used the name in 585 and the first time against A.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 16:41, May 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Potassium. I think it's time to move the article, but Suki-senpai might have a different opinion about that, so let's wait~ Seelentau 愛議 16:53, May 14, 2012 (UTC)

Does Sasuke need to point the flames
It seems that Sasuke doesn't have to point with the eye the Amaterasu flames he wants to manipulate. Instead he points the spot where he wants the nearby - and out of sight - flames to be moved. I think the first and second to last pages of chapter 463 are good examples of this.--JOA20 (talk) 21:40, December 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * And how are we going to put that in the article and even more so why put it in the article?71.71.58.231 (talk) 22:32, December 4, 2012 (UTC) Yhwach
 * I just thought that maybe no one noticed it. Just asking.--JOA20 (talk) 07:49, December 5, 2012 (UTC)

Kagutsuchi Magatama
In being consistent with Sword of Kagutsuchi's naming, should Blaze Release: Magatama be changed to "Kagutsuchi Magatama"? Also, since every usage of this technique except for the spikes used against A is now named, should that also be given an article?--BeyondRed (talk) 16:26, February 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * Blaze Release: Yasaka Magatama--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:16, February 12, 2013 (UTC)

Kekkei Genkai List
Shouldn't EMS be added to the list? I know MS is already there and it is an MS technique, but Sasuke still couldn't use one variant until he obtained his EMS. I think we should modify this list. I acknowled it is a MS technique, but he did require the eMS before he coudl use one variant just like he couldn't use the Blaze Release: Yasaka Magatama without the EMS.  Banan 14 kab  02:03, April 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Naruto can't throw Rasenshuriken without either Sage Mode or Nine-Tails' Chakra Mode, yet we don't list Wind Release: Rasenshuriken as either senjutsu or tailed beast skill. Sasuke's own Susanno changed after getting EMS, doesn't mean we list Susanno as an EMS technique either. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:43, April 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sasuke's Susanoo had a black flame orb even before he acquired the Eternal Mangekyo, there's nothing saying he couldn't have used his flame sword or his magatama technique back then if given the chance.--BeyondRed (talk) 06:07, April 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Then why don't you change Blaze Release: Yasaka Magatama to an MS technique instead of an EMS technique? Also Omnibender your examples are kinda different because Naruto used the same version of Wind Release: Rasenshuriken. It's the same exact technique; he just can throw it in those cases. The Susanoo case was better, but that's just appearance with the evolution of Sasuke's eyes. Also you don't exclusively need EMS to have Susanoo. You need MS. FOr Sasuke to use the sword version it seems he needed EMS, but I guess there is no certainty for that. But I guess the sword transformed in the same sense Sasuke's Susanoo did.  Banan 14 kab  07:25, April 18, 2013 (UTC)

I support the cause, we should list it as EMS or either remove Magatama as an EMS technique too--Elveonora (talk) 09:53, April 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Sasuke's Susanoo still changed, regardless of it having the black orb before. The Magatama was only used post transplant, so it should stay as EMS. I've never seen the need to have both MS and EMS as different kekkei genkai for either character or jutsu infobox purposes, it creates unnecessary issues, like this one, but if we're using it, might as well use then right. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 12:44, April 18, 2013 (UTC)

Guys, please be aware that MS and eMS are the same Kekkei Genkai. An eMS is just an eternal MS, nothing else. Seelentau 愛議 14:03, April 18, 2013 (UTC)

The Susanoo still changed tho--Elveonora (talk) 14:28, April 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * They do that all the time. Seelentau 愛議 20:25, April 18, 2013 (UTC)

Let's not get off topic. Susanoo is not the issue here. It is another technique which requires the MS to use as has been established in the series and that's that. Yes it changes after you gain the EMS (which is an evolved MS), but it doesn't require EMS exclusively to use. The point I was trying to make here is that the Kagutsuchi jutsu changed in a different form which seems to require the EMS which why I thought it should be listed in the kekkei genkai list, just as the Blaze Release: Yasaka Magatama requires (or at least is hinted at by the series) the EMS as the MS is not sufficient, but like Omnibender said we don't know if Sasuke could use that technique before obtaining his EMS since we are only going by what is shown in the series. I disagree that this is unnecessary because it makes a better distinction of what techniques require the MS only and which require the EMS to use a jutsu exclusively. We don't know if he could use the flame sword when he had the MS, but he never did. So I was following the same logic as the emblazoned yasaka magatama. Since in the series Sasuke did not use it until he exclusively had his EMS I still stand firm that it should be listed as well as the MS. Yes they are the same dōjutsu, but one is still slightly different otherwise we would just list MS for everything and leave EMS out. Why even include it in Sasuke, Itachi, Kakashi, Obitio, Izuna and Obito's infoboxes then?  Banan 14 kab  21:20, April 18, 2013 (UTC)

I kind of hate to bring this up again, but there's really nothing implying that Susanoo's change of appearance was caused by Sasuke taking Itachi's eyes, is there? The seal pattern on Naruto's chakra mode changed slightly after its first appearance too, for example; it isn't unheard of for something to be redesigned. Not saying it didn't change because of the EMS, but what makes everyone believe that it did? As far as we've been told, EMS is just the same as Mangekyo but "eternal", we haven't actually seen it grant any unique abilities or possess other special properties yet.--BeyondRed (talk) 00:27, April 19, 2013 (UTC)

It's logical, Susanoo is an avatar/physical manifestation of chakra, Sasuke took Itachi's eyes (containing his chakra) and noted he feels it flowing through his body, so figure Sasuke's chakra is now partially made-up of Itachi's as well so Susanoo should be kinda different?--Elveonora (talk) 10:03, April 19, 2013 (UTC)

Well, in the German Narutopedia, I handled it this way: Enton: Kagutsuchi is an MS jutsu because he used it with the MS for the first time. Enton: Yasaka no Magatama is an eMS jutsu (which includes it being an MS jutsu), because Sasuke used it with his eMS for the first time. Same with Madara's meteor jutsu: He had his Rinnegan activated while using it, that's why I listed it as a Rinnegan jutsu, even though he maybe could use it with eMS.

tl;dr: The dojutsu which was active while using a jutsu for the first time is crucial. Seelentau 愛議 11:28, April 20, 2013 (UTC)

Alright fine I get it Seelentau. There some jutsu that list more than one dōjutsu if it entails both. I guess the main argument of all this was if EMS is listed as different than MS, but like everyone has been saying they are the same, but one is more advanced. So the fact stands that you need the MS to use it, which means if you have EMS you can automatically use it since it is an evolved form of MS. Ok this case is closed. I get it now.  Banan 14 kab  05:55, April 21, 2013 (UTC)

Picture of Susano'o less version.
Just putting a reminder here for that. Neither of the translated versions is usuable due to the english text, so we have to get the RAW version.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 19:54, May 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * Now you brought this up, shouldn't we merge "shield of black flames" with this article? I believe Blaze Release: Yasaka Magatama warrants its own article for now and... I would even agree on the Sword orb version too. Can anyone tell me the chapter please when Sasuke does the sword one and calls it just kagatsuchi? The way I would imagine it is that the version which uses flames directly from the orb held by Amaterasu is one variant, while the other which doesn't require the orb is another. Perhaps in the chapter I'm asking for he just used Amaterasu from his eye on his Susanoo Sword and coated it, while in the instance of WZ murder it was orb created. If yes, then I think we should again separate it and re-create "sword of kagatsuchi" for it--Elveonora (talk) 20:16, May 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't feel Shield of Black Flames should be merged with this article. This is pretty much the Blaze Release version of Chidori Current. None of the Chidori variants are merged with Chidori, so Shield of Black Flames shouldn't be merged either.


 * Susanoo: Sword of Kagutsuchi (doesn't officially have a name of it's own, Naruto Shippūden: Ultimate Ninja Storm 3's literal English translation might change that) is shown at chapter 586 page 7. Mangapanda's scanlation referred to it as "Enton-Kagutsuchi." I can't find the Mangastream scanlation, and I don't have access to the raw. General Awesomo 21:11, May 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * Got a placeholder picture put up. Could anyone get the RAW version up now?--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 19:21, May 31, 2013 (UTC)

Chapter 632: Fire Release
In Chapter 632, the last two pages, Sasuke refers the technique as Fire Release instead of Blaze. Should we add that to the trivia at least? Yatanogarasu (Talk) 22:03, May 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * In raws too? Well, Amaterasu is technically Katon.--Elveonora (talk) 22:08, May 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * Didn't Sasuke introduced it as Blaze? Yatanogarasu (Talk) 22:42, May 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * The MangaStream version says Katon, but MangaPanda has Enton 188.171.29.108 (talk) 00:13, May 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * Mangastream used to have better translators. They've made some crass mistakes during this arc, even with stuff that has already been translated correctly before. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:34, May 31, 2013 (UTC)
 * And both of them called Enton: Susanoo Kagutsuchi.--Salamancc (talk) 12:52, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

Tobirama's statement
Seems to infer that Kagutsuchi wasn't unique to Sasuke, but that he's demonstrated the most powerful example of it. Should this be mentioned in the article? SaiST (talk) 13:11, June 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * Wait for the raw. If so, then it would suggest Madara/Izuna as a user .-. --Elveonora (talk) 13:30, June 12, 2013 (UTC)

Sword of Kagutsuchi not being Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi
Naruto Shippūden: Ultimate Ninja Storm 3's Sword of Kagutsuchi uses the orb in Susanoo's secondary right hand. It's no longer Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi, but Blaze Release: Susanoo Kagutsuchi. The Susanoo sword used with Kagutsuchi in chapter 585, page 7, panel 4 was called Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi, probably because it came from Sasuke's EMS, not the orb. Although looking back, the panel right before that one showed the orb present...

But we've come to the conclusion that the orb weapons are Blaze Release: Susanoo Kagutsuchi. So, to keep the consistency, that's why the trivia about Sword of Kagutsuchi shouldn't be in this article's trivia section. General Awesomo (talk) 22:05, June 17, 2013 (UTC)


 * You're absolutely correct, but it doesn't change the fact that it was first identified as Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi. Perhaps that particular trivia note will have to be altered, but that should at least be mentioned in this article, don't you think? SaiST (talk) 22:09, June 17, 2013 (UTC)

Kagutsuchi extingues flames
Since there's a phrase saying that this technique is the one that allows the user to extinguish the black flames of Amaterasu, logically we shoud put Itachi as a user.--JOA20 (talk) 19:29, July 31, 2013 (UTC)


 * While it is never actually confirmed that Itachi extinguished the black flames ablaze on Sasuke's Orochimaru-style Kawarimi, it is the overwhelmingly popular assumption, as most agree that there's no way the rest of the Kawarimi wouldn't have been consumed by the flames otherwise. While I personally doubt it, that isn't going to change—especially here—unless we get a statement from the author indicating that Itachi lacked the ability. As for listing him as one of Kagutsuchi's users, even if that ocular power allows Sasuke to accomplish this, it doesn't necessarily mean that Itachi extinguished the flames through the same means. —SaiST Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg「talk 19:44, July 31, 2013 (UTC)


 * I can't believe people still think on what happened in chapter 414 was Kagutsuchi. Techniques get formally introduced in the chapter they first appear in (or in the chapters close to it). Furthermore, Sasuke has always said Kagtsuchi every time he used this in the first few times. Is it really likelly he used it here and then only named 50 chpaters later, which is two years later manga time? ~Raspberry Truffle talk|contrib 03:56, October 6, 2013 (UTC)