Talk:Cursed Seal of Heaven

I forgot there is more them one cursed seal. Which one the Sound Four had? (if it was said) I only know Kimimaro has the Cursed Seal of Earth. --Quick 21:55, 8 November 2007 (UTC)


 * 1) We really do need to get to making a Cursed Seal of Earth page. 2) As far as we know, we can only call them "Sound Four Seals" as their seals don't actually had names.--TheUltimate3 22:10, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Speculation
Could Sasuke get back his cursed seal, and how? Cooltamerboy 08:29, 9 February 2009 (UTC).

ShounenSuki do you got an answer? Cooltamerboy 10:01, 9 February 2009 (UTC).


 * I don't have a conclusive answer. There is simply no way of answering your question without speculating.
 * In my opinion, there are two possible scenarios.
 * Sasuke's Cursed Seal became fully dormant after Orochimaru's demise. This would likely mean that if Orochimaru's soul was ever to be freed from the Sword of Totsuka, the Cursed Seal would resurface.
 * Sasuke's Cursed Seal disappeared completely after Orochimaru's demise. This would mean that even if Orochimaru's soul was freed, the Cursed Seal would not return without being reapplied by Orochimaru.
 * Still, as I said, this is just speculation on my side. I doubt the Cursed Seal will ever return, though. Sasuke already cut any connection he had with Orochimaru and the chance of Orochimaru making a comeback is slight. --ShounenSuki 10:14, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

But since orochimaru was sealed (meaning dead) and orochimaru did not take over kabuto's body that means orochimaru was dead. Don't you think if Orochimaru returned he would get the cursed seal again right away? Cooltamerboy 10:21, 9 February 2009 (UTC).


 * As I already said, that's a possibility. If Orochimaru somehow was able to return, Sasuke's Cursed Seal might resurface. The chances of this happening are ~10% at most, I think. Not only is it just as easily possible that the Cursed Seal wouldn't resurface, it's also very doubtful that Orochimaru will ever return. --ShounenSuki 10:27, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Don't forget that part of orochimaru is in kabuto and their is a 90% chance for orochimaru to take his body. How much now do you think Orochimaru took from sasuke's body? Cooltamerboy 10:49, 9 February 2009 (UTC).


 * The same. You see, I didn't forget that little fact. The Cursed Seals seem to be linked to Orochimaru's soul. Kabuto only has (a part of) Orochimaru's body. Also, you have to remember that Sasuke was never really subjugated to the Cursed Seal and that he doesn't need Orochimaru's power any more, now that he has the Mangekyō Sharingan. It would also cheapen Itachi's death. --ShounenSuki 11:00, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

And did the cursed seal of heaven when synochrized raise Sasuke's natural state's power for all the time or for some time, and how much times does the Cursed Seal of Heaven in level 2 at full extent multiply someone's chakra? Cooltamerboy 13:02, 9 February 2009 (UTC).


 * If with Sasuke's natural state you mean while he isn't using the Cursed Seal, then the synchronisation didn't alter anything. The synchronisation was only meant to allow Sasuke to enter the Cursed Seal's Level 2. It increased the amount of chakra Level 1 gives and gave access to Level 2, but did nothing to Sasuke's base stats. This is easily seen by reading the Valley of the End fight. While Sasuke and Naruto are fighting in their base states, they are equal, just as they were at the hospital rooftop fight.
 * According to Jirōbō, the Cursed Seal's Level 2 increases the wearer's chakra ten times. --ShounenSuki 19:43, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

I meant it said in the cursed seal of heaven page that it raised his overall power without direct activation to it. Is this true? And when did jirobi say the chakra is multiplied ten times when they transform? And which snake techniques did sasuke learn from orochimaru? Cooltamerboy 07:54, 10 February 2009 (UTC).


 * I've seen no evidence that suggests the Cursed Seal does anything without it being activated.
 * Jirōbō said as much in chapter 190, during his fight with Chōji.
 * Define "learned". There is no way to tell which techniques Sasuke learned directly from Orochimaru and which techniques he was able to perform because he had absorbed Orochimaru's soul. I personally think Sasuke was taught to perform most snake-related techniques, except the Yamata no Jutsu and other techniques involving Orochimaru's unique body (like the Kawarimi he did to escape Itachi's Amaterasu). --ShounenSuki 08:07, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

It says in the first paragraph in the Cursed Seal of heaven article The power of the cursed seal synchronizes with the hosts body with extended use, raising their overall power even without direct activation of the seal.. Did it increase the power of his natural state all the time (when he had the cursed seal) or sometime (when he had the cursed seal? Cooltamerboy 08:18, 10 February 2009 (UTC).


 * I have seen no evidence for that claim. The Cursed Seal does "synchronise" with the wearer's body (or more accurately, the wearer's body gets used to the Cursed Seal), but all this does is increase the power the Cursed Seal gives, eventually giving access to Level 2.
 * Again, I don't recall ever seeing evidence that the Cursed Seal does anything to the wearer's natural state. --ShounenSuki 08:37, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
 * According to the manga, chapter 219 to be exact, Sasuke mentions that the cursed seal did in fact increase his power. If he was talking about the it's Level 1 form, then ok I'll give it that.--TheUltimate3 14:01, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

He was in cursed seal 1 form when he was talking and he didn't say it increases the power of his natural state. He meant if he released the power if the cursed seal than he would get more power (Level 2). Cooltamerboy 14:16, 10 February 2009 (UTC).


 * Then there we go. The article now reflects that it increases the chakra given by the seal and allows the transformation of the second form.--TheUltimate3 14:20, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Please look at this page. . Then please look at his stats of the Pre-Timeskip, and then look at the stats of Post-Timeskip. Look at their differences. Don't you think TheUltimate3 the power of the cursed seal in level 2 infuse with sasuke in part II in the battle of Itachi (because when he transformed to level 2 in his battles against Itachi, Deidara, and Orochimaru he didn't show anything different in his abilities except gaining wings and making his chakra more sinister)? Cooltamerboy 14:33, 10 February 2009 (UTC).

ShounenSuki does the Cursed Seal of Heaven in level 2 enhance the chakra or just make it more sinister? Cooltamerboy 08:37, 12 February 2009 (UTC).


 * As far as I know, the Cursed Seal does nothing more than forcibly draw our one's hidden chakra potential, enhancing one's innate abilities and characteristics. I don't recall it ever being said that the Cursed Seal makes one's chakra more sinister. That simply seems to be one of the characteristics of Sasuke's chakra that's being enhanced by the Cursed Seal. --ShounenSuki (talk 10:00, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Can you find any site for Databook 2 that explains that the cursed seal of heaven is the strongest? Cooltamerboy 10:38, 12 February 2009 (UTC).
 * I don't know of any site, but it's explained in the extra on page 80 of the second databook. Here's the translation:

Konoha One Hundred Leafs Collection ~ Number Twelve


 * The Cursed Seal of Heaven - The Cursed Seal of Earth |

Among the Cursed Seals, the seals of Heaven and Earth hold exceptional "power". Although their actual effect and potency are not directly evident, the truth of why they were carved into Kimimaro and Sasuke is to draw out their excess "power".

[pictures of Kimimaro's and Sasuke's Cursed Seals] →On the back of Sasuke's neck and on Kimimaro's chest, the Cursed Seal rises to the surface. They are also a symbol revealing the depth of the darkness in their hearts...
 * --ShounenSuki (talk 11:26, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Man you are a good translater!, but what did you mean by this phrase. the truth of why they were carved into Kimimaro and Sasuke is to draw out their excess "power". Cooltamerboy 11:39, 12 February 2009 (UTC).


 * That sentence is a bit difficult to translate, but it basically means that the reason Kimimaro and Sasuke were given the Cursed seals was to draw out their full power, the power that was laying dormant inside of them. --ShounenSuki (talk 11:43, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Could sasuke use his full power without the cursed seal? And could he forcibly pull chakra without the cursed seal? Cooltamerboy 11:50, 12 February 2009 (UTC).
 * Theoretically, both should be possible. In due time, Sasuke might learn how to use his abilities to their fullest extent and with the greatest efficiency. However, it would be unreasonable to think this would be an easy task. I'd think this was a feat reserved only for those shinobi with the greatest power and talent.
 * I'm sure there are plenty of ways to forcibly draw out chakra. The Eight Gates come to mind, although they seem to work a bit differently than the Cursed Seal. Whatever the method, I'm sure it would somehow be detrimental to either the body or the mind, lest everybody would use it. --ShounenSuki (talk 15:22, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Strongest?
When was it said that this seal is the strongest of the cursed seals? Jacce 08:23, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it was ever said, just implied. After all, the Curse Seal of Heaven and the Curse Seal of Earth are the only one's that are named, and Oro wouldn't have given a weak Curse Seal to his next container. The Heaven Seal was supposed to be as strong as the Earth Seal.

http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-199/page004.html


 * The second databook states the Cursed Seals of Heaven and Earth hold exceptional power among the Cursed Seals. --ShounenSuki 09:29, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

ShounenSuki do you have the site of the databook II that states the cursed seals?


 * I don't know of any site to be honest. I just looked it up in the databook itself. --ShounenSuki 09:48, 9 February 2009 (UTC)

Orochimaru's eye
"When he fought Itachi, his right eye changed to Orochimaru's eye and got his shade (it seems black, and it is connected to Sasuke's star-shaped mark) when he was in Level 2. It has never been seen before (his other eye was a circle while Orochimaru's eye is a line). It is unknown why, what it does or mean." Could someone please remove this? It has nothing to do with the Cursed Seal and everything with Orochimaru slowly gaining control again. --ShounenSuki (talk 12:19, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Actaully it only came when he was cursed seal, and we never heard him say that he got the eye because of Orochimaru. So we can't take it off. Once they say that what you said, then we will take it off. Cooltamerboy 12:30, 19 February 2009 (UTC).


 * It came when Sasuke was so weakened and low on chakra that he couldn't properly suppress Orochimaru any more. Going into the Cursed Seal's level 2 only made Sasuke's will weaker and more controllable by Orochimaru, finally allowing Orochimaru to manifest. --ShounenSuki (talk 12:50, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Way to post right when I was backing you up for once Suki. Way to go. Anyway, I am going to remove it, it has nothing to do with the Cursed Seal.--TheUltimate3 12:50, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Actaully no. I have a good reason. If Sasuke got Orochimaru's eye because Orochimaru was going out, but he should have taken Sasuke's body not make the Eight Branches Technique as his body right? So lets leave it until someone says that. Cooltamerboy 12:53, 19 February 2009 (UTC).


 * The Yamata form is an extension of Orochimaru's White Snake form. In other words, the Yamata form proves Orochimaru had gained control again, at least to a certain extent. If he hadn't been sealed into the Totsuka Sword, he might actually have completely taken over Sasuke's body.
 * Also, my apologies Ultimate ^^ --ShounenSuki (talk 12:58, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

He could have just took Sasuke's body right away, and use Eight Branches Technique. So Orochimaru's eye is something related to the Cursed Seal. Cooltamerboy 13:03, 19 February 2009 (UTC).


 * No it is not. It was Orochimaru trying to escape. The Eight Branches was Orochimaru actually escaping, and was supposed to eat Sasuke to take his body.--TheUltimate3 13:08, 19 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The Yamata, like the White Snake, removes the soul from the body. If Orochimaru took over Sasuke's body and then went into the Yamata form, Sasuke would have probably been freed again any way. Besides, Orochimaru didn't have the time to go through the whole process of taking over Sasuke's body. Defeating Itachi had a higher priority. --ShounenSuki (talk 13:17, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

First thing: This is the first time he transforms to Cursed seal level 2 without Sharingan, so we can't know. Second thing: When he finished Kirin he should have gained orochimaru's eye and shade or at least the shade or eye. Third thing: He didn't gain chakra when he transformed to Level 2 Cursed Seal after doing Kirin. Fourth thing: It only took one eye instead of two, and didn't transform anything from his body to Orochimaru's. Fifth thing: He only gained Orochimaru's eye when he was Level 2, so it shows relationship to the Cursed Seal. So could you please put it back? Cooltamerboy 13:34, 19 February 2009 (UTC).
 * What can't we know? What does Sasuke's Sharingan have to do with this?
 * As I said, using the Cursed Seal weakened Sasuke's will even further, allowing Orochimaru to gain the upper hand.
 * How do you know that? It doesn't really matter though, Sasuke probably used up so much chakra that there simply was no more chakra for the Cursed Seal to draw out.
 * Orochimaru didn't gain complete control over Sasuke.
 * See point 2.
 * --ShounenSuki (talk 13:41, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

The Sharingan has a main reason. Sasuke always uses Level 2 with Sharingan, but this is the first time he uses level 2 without the sharingan. So how could we know, and also they never mentioned that he got Orochimaru's eye from when Orochimaru is coming out. So lets leave it until they say it is because of what you said. Cooltamerboy 14:25, 19 February 2009 (UTC).


 * Why are you assuming the Sharingan has any influence on the Cursed Seal?
 * Any way, Gaining someone's eyes is used as a visual cue that the person is (being) taken over by someone else. It's used with the Sharingan (Manda), the Rinnegan (Pain, Pain's summons), and Orochimaru (Gen'yūmaru, his previous body, Kabuto). In a way, it's even used with the Kyūbi (Naruto) and Shukaku (Gaara).
 * This is just one more example of someone being taken over by someone else. All the evidence points to it. --ShounenSuki (talk 14:54, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Yes this true, but Sasuke absorbed Orochimaru and he didn't gain Orochimaru's eye until he was in Cursed Seal. So we can't say it was because Orochimaru was taking over. And they never said so. So please can we put it? Cooltamerboy 15:30, 19 February 2009 (UTC).


 * Sasuke didn't get Orochimaru's eyes because he was always in control. If Orochimaru had been successful and had completely taken over control of Sasuke's body, he would have gotten Orochimaru's eyes, just like Gen'yūmaru.
 * Saying the eyes have anything to do with the Cursed Seal has no precedent and has never been either stated or implied. Everything points to it simply being because Orochimaru gained control. --ShounenSuki (talk 16:13, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Still they never said that so we cannot know. We have to put it at the Cursed Seal page because it appeared while he was in the Cursed Seal form. So could we stop this, and put this small information?


 * You keep on saying "they never said that," but you completely ignore the evidence. There are many facts that point to those eyes being caused by Orochimaru gaining control. You have one fact that points to it being caused by the Cursed Seal. So let me throw your own argument back at you. They never said it was caused by the Cursed Seal.
 * Now let me give you some questions: If it was caused by the Cursed Seal...
 * ...why was its relevance never explained?
 * ...why didn't it ever happen before?
 * ...why was it focused on so much when Orochimaru started talking to Sasuke?
 * ...why wouldn't it have to do with the already established and often-used symbolism of eyes being signs control over a body?
 * --ShounenSuki (talk 16:49, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Everything you said was true. But we have to mention it. How about I mention at Sasuke uchiha's article, but at least put the image of it on the Cursed Seal of Heaven page. Ok? Cooltamerboy 16:57, 19 February 2009 (UTC).

Protection
When Jacce protected this article he said it would last for two weeks. It's now been almost three weeks. Can someone remove the protection? ~SnapperTo 19:52, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. Anyone that can explain why the protection wasen't removed? Jacce 20:00, 11 March 2009 (UTC)