User talk:Omnibender/Elemental recomposition table

Ideas from Periodic Table?
While I was looking around, I found a Japanese periodic table on the internet and suddenly thought the elements with kanji may help fill the table. I'm not sure if it'll exactly help, but you could take a look at it if you wanted to. A possible combination to Earth and Lightning related ones may be in here somewhere. --GoDai (talk) 05:55, October 14, 2011 (UTC)

There are lots of usable elements but I guess they are only usable when there are triple combinations that work by creating an imbalance by using more of one compound than the other (example: Earth + Earth + Lightning). Chemical releases are a complicated thing and would take time to know how to place the compounds and are unlikely to ever be added be it canon recomposition or Omnibender's table. Metallic recompositions are also unlikely to be ever added since we saw the Iron and Gold Sand techniques (by that I want to remind of possible Copper, Silver, Tin or Lead Sand techniques). But the following list of ideas features just examples of how you could use chemical elements and metals as triple element recompositions.

"Chemical releases" as I call them could be:
 * Boron (硼素, Hōso) and Boron Release (硼遁, Hōton)
 * Nitrogen (窒素, Chisso) and Nitrogen Release (窒遁, Chitton)
 * Fluorine (弗素, Fusso) and Fluorine Release (弗遁, Futton)
 * Silicon (珪素, Keiso) and Silicon Release (珪遁, Keiton)
 * Sulphur (硫黄, Iō) and Sulphur Release (硫遁, Ryūton)
 * Arsenic (砒素, Hiso) and Arsenic Release (砒遁, Hiton)
 * Bromine (臭素, Shūso) and Bromine Release (臭遁, Shūton)
 * Iodine (沃素, Yōso) and Iodine Release (沃遁, Yōton)

"Metallic releases" as I call them could be: ...too bored to list more metals.
 * Iron (鉄, Tetsu/Kurogane) and Iron Release (鉄遁, Tetton)
 * Gold (金/鋆, Kane) and Gold Release (金遁/鋆遁, Kinton/Inton); (鋆: common Chinese character I prefer)
 * Copper (銅, Dō/Akagane) and Copper Release (銅遁, Dōton)
 * Silver (銀, Gin/Shirogane) and Silver Release (銀遁, Ginton)
 * Tin (錫, Suzu) and Tin Release (錫遁, Shakuton)
 * Lead (鉛, Namari) and Lead Release (鉛遁, Enton)
 * Zinc (亜鉛, Aen) and Zinc Release (鋅遁, Shinton); (鋅: common Chinese character I prefer)
 * Platinum (白金, Hakkin) and Platinum Release (鉑遁, Hakuton) (鉑: common Chinese character I prefer)

Since it would take too much time to figure out fitting compounds for each idea I didn't do that. DarkblueFlow (talk) 01:23, October 15, 2011 (UTC)

Right, but an "imbalance" isn't exactly necessary, since it's not like we're using all of the chemical elements, I beleive we are prioritizing getting at least one idea for each combination. If we can make a good connection to any of these elements with Lightning, we have good options. For example, we could usemetals that are commonly used as common anodes and/or cathodes and consider them as choices. And while we probably won't see a lot of metallic natures since Magnet Release manipulates metal as a weapon anyway, it's still possible, since Kishi can always come up with a similar thing that has a different purpose. --GoDai (talk) 04:22, October 15, 2011 (UTC)

Wind and Lightning
With that combination, what do you think of a disintegrate nature? Both wind and lightning cuts well, and lightning could focus the wind towards one specific point. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 15:36, October 15, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm curious on what wind and lightning will turn out to be. I can see Magnet being lightning with either earth or wind. If it turns out to be lightning and earth, which I find more likely, I have no idea what will be used for lightning and wind. The only reason I have Swift Release in there is because it's an idea with a higher canon standing than my own, I try to find a place for those before coming up with my own ideas. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:36, October 15, 2011 (UTC)
 * One idea I tend to cling to for Wind+Lightning is like, a resonating nature. Since both enhance how well weapons cut when used in chakra flow, it would be like the ultimate cutting chakra flow nature. --GoDai (talk) 23:37, October 16, 2011 (UTC)

Bonding Release?
I liked what Umishuru said about a "build/structure" nature. How about something like a "Bond Release"? The chakra would act as the intermolecular and intramolecular (and maybe even nuclear) bonds that "glue" particles to particles. Earth for the targeted matter, Lightning for the energy, and Yin for the form and the inwards pull. --GoDai (talk) 23:41, October 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Kinda like an opposite of Dust Release, which instead of breaking stuff down at molecular level would put them together at molecular level, kinda welding or smelting perhaps? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:10, October 17, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I was thinking about that too. An opposite of Dust Release, which would turn the "dust" into solid structures. When used on two difference substances, maybe some fusion of properties could happen. --GoDai (talk) 01:15, October 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't necessarily see this as something turning "dust" into solids. I can see this working kinda by phasing stuff inside other stuff, maybe some active shaping of the stuff being manipulated as well. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:20, October 17, 2011 (UTC)

Hmm yeah. Maybe something like "merging" or melding. --GoDai (talk) 17:20, October 21, 2011 (UTC)

It is a very good idea. In my opinion, a Structure (構造, Kōzō) nature and Structure Release (造遁, Zōton). It does not create matter out of nothingness, it gathers atoms and molecules from the surrounding area and uses them to create objects by integrating the molecules into the structure to create various different structures. This nature does not change the atoms into another (chemical) element, opening a weakness: If there's no "proper" matter around (stone or metal for example) you can only create structures out of the more unsuitable molecules around you. Also, gathering matter from a bigger distance requires more chakra. DarkblueFlow (talk) 19:04, November 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Haha it kinda reminds me of a Fullmetal Alchemist nature. Are you experienced with Japanese? --GoDai (talk) 11:51, November 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * A Fullmetal Alchemist nature sounds good, but what I wrote is just an idea of this bonding release thing. There's no proper kanji for bonding so I decided to use structure instead, but 造 can mean creation too. Besides, the Rōmaji for Flesh Release need to be Nikuton, otherwise it would be wrong. So yeah, I am experienced in Japanese. XD (Be sure to use Earth/Lightning/Yin for Structure Release because I'm still hoping that Omnibender uses Earth/Lightning/Yang for Gravity Release.) DarkblueFlow (talk) 13:48, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm also experienced with basic Japanese, and I'm the one who made the most recent move from "gravity" to the more accurate terms "attraction" and "repulsion". That does open up the gravity idea, but I'm a bit concerned because the attraction ability basically imitates gravity in many cases. But I also like the idea itself, although I always find difficulty in thinking of how it could be different. Also, I even find it a possibility that a "Heaven Release (天遁)" to be the Deva Path's powers since attraction and repulsion are heavenly forces and the Deva Path's name is written with the kanji for Heaven. But of course, this is nowhere near definite, and it's a vague idea. As for the Structure idea, I was thinking more of a nature where the nature of chakra is to act as the energy that bonds particles together, manipulating the very way things are bonded. --GoDai (talk) 02:00, November 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't think that the Deva Path allows to use something as Heaven Release. Those attraction and repulsion abilities are most likely just part of the Rinnegan (like Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are part of the Mangekyō Sharingan), not requiring any chakra natures. About Structure Release, if you think of it as chakra that has the energy to bond particles, the Earth/Lightning/Yin combination wouldn't fit no longer to me, the kanji no longer too. An alternative would be that high-level Structure Release users could use a "Structure Release: Particle Bonding Technique" or something like that. The ability itself would also be a decent Rinnegan power. DarkblueFlow (talk) 16:42, November 16, 2011 (UTC)

Ideas Pt. 12
For the Judgment release I was thinking of a energy that can cause great pleasure and healing and also when needed great pain. Sort of like the Heaven and Hell reward of Christianity.

Lightning + Water + Yang = Luck release. Symbolically you have to be unlucky in life to get hit by lightning since the chances are really low, Yang is seen as positive according to the table which can translate as lucky i guess and water is neutral but would act as the catalyst. Since water is seen as a purifying substance it would allow the energy or substance go from bad to good luck and so on a reflection on water's many states and ability to exist in varying temperature on opposite ends basically water adaptability.

Lightning + Water + Yin = Void release. Yin represents space and therefore void. A void a is a place with no matter, to achieve this Lighting provides the energy to break up bonds. Water pulls the separated mass towards it self in which Yin absorbs since it is seen as taking in on the table and wet. Yin also causes the yin/yang balance of an object to collapse removing its form and leaving nothing left. What is left is a void.

Earth + Lightning + Yin = Transition/Form/Matter/Energy/Material/Convert Release. Following the Wet release idea that deals with turning things into liquids, this element would deal with turning objects into energy(lightning) or into solid matter(Earth). Yin deals with form and would pass on its form manipulating qualities to the element as well as aid. If you want examples, as gas is hit and it can turn into energy or a solid state in which it color depends on what color the gas was originally.

Water + Lightning + Yang/Yin = Refraction/Bend release. Water has light refracting qualities. Lighting gives out light and could turn an object into thus. Yang enhances these qualities or Yin aids in manipulation of form. The idea is a energy or substance that causes objects to bend and contort.

As for the bonding release, a better name for it might be clump.

Lightning + Water + Yang/Yin = Flux/Ferro release. The idea is this:    Basically Lightning passes on its magnetic qualities on to water in which its strange shape qualities and color(when introduced to a magnet) are attributed to Yin or have Yang act as the magnet. You basically have a black magnetic water.Umishiru (talk) 04:46, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

The closest thing I ever got to something like luck was when I tried to make an Entropy Release for fire/water/lightning before the purification idea came along. It had to do with charges of water molecules changing when they change states. Void is kinda like Wind Release's vacuum for me. I'm still sold on the smelting/welding idea for lightning/earth/yin. The flexibility is something I had though for a possible Rubber Release, but Lava took rubber for itself. The ferrofluid idea looks like an interesting variety for Magnet Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:24, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah I was going for a liquid version of Magnet Release.Umishiru (talk) 01:28, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Alkali metals
I was considering other possible properties one could give to chakra in Naruto. Along with an idea of a viral chakra (Although I didn't think it would be a nature, your similar Miasma theory seemed to fit fairly well), I also previously thought of something like an ability related to manipulating the alkali metals, or some sort of similar substance. Visible traits such as their high reactivity with water and air would be a big factor. Although there could be a better place for such nature, the place it would fit most well in this case would be Earth/Lightning/Yang, I think. The lightning's characteristic of unstable energy (and how lightning is amplified by water) would be applied to Earth to produce an earth that would react violently in water, and if very reactive, spontaneously combust in air. An Alkali (アルカリ Arukari) nature, allowing for the use of Alkali Release (碱遁, Kenton) ninjutsu. I asked Shounensuki about this and he said although the term is uncommon, it should be fine for the nature name. I personally imagine the user producing metals, increasing in reactivity (From sodium all the way to cesium). And the term covers both alkaline substances and alkali metals so it also fits my general idea of something that could maybe be the opposite of Boil's acidic nature. I also thought we should try to stick with things that do sound like physical elements, because I felt Purification and Erase were borderline abstract. Oh if you do complete the table I hope we'll have time to revise it. ^^ --GoDai (talk) 05:53, November 8, 2011 (UTC)
 * Alkali is an interesting idea. My only concern is that Mei implied that she could manipulate the pH levels of the mist, meaning she can potentially make it into a strong base as well. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:24, November 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmm yeah you're probably right. For this nature, I'm mostly just thinking of pure alkali metals like Rubidium and Cesium, not bases like their hydroxide forms. So rather than focusing on bases, I'm focusing more on the metals themselves and their reactive characteristics like exploding in water. --GoDai (talk) 03:15, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Sounds like something that goes under metal release.Umishiru (talk) 03:19, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah I thought that too but we also have Mercury, so I was thinking Metal as more of the general sense of metal we refer to in everyday life. --GoDai (talk) 11:49, November 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, I imagined Mercury Release to yield the ability to liquefy any metal (without increasing temperature) and manipulate it. Generating normal mercury is also considerable. DarkblueFlow (talk) 16:49, November 16, 2011 (UTC)

Reaction

 * As cool sounding as that is, ferrofluid is actually made from tiny particles of iron that is put in a liquid, so this actually has to add some kind of earth chakra as well.

EDIT: Never mind, forget what i said. This could actually be used since magnet release uses a metal (shuriken, gold, etc.) to perform jutsus. My bad. I just read that it uses iron as well and automatically assumed. My bad. Joshbl56 04:37, November 11, 2011 (UTC)

your guess
Which of your advanced elements will come as true ? --Elveonora (talk) 01:32, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

To get techincal, we don't know really. One of his elements shave been made canon but were made canon through different names. It has his heat release idea which in the canon is Scorch release. Though I doubt Kishi uses this site for ideas.Umishiru (talk) 01:36, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Haha, you never know. But seriously, I mean ... there are dozens of combinations possible and also I have a question for Omni: Do you think it makes a difference which element enhances whom ? I mean, is it the same if you combine water and wind as wind and water ? And what advanced nature you think is about to appear next? --Elveonora (talk) 01:41, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I think it's the same if you combine wind and water or water and wind. I have no idea which nature will appear next. Assuming Scorch is Fire/Wind, Explosion is Fire/Lightning, and Magnet Earth/Lightning, next is Lightning/Wind. I really hoped that with the revelation of previous techniques as natures, such as Magnet and Explosion, that Gaara's sand sould be revealed as Earth/Wind. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:00, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe the Sand is KKG of some sorts, its still not explained in detail about Gaara's powers. For example Roshi, he and his beast were able to use Lava. But was Lava the power of the beast and Roshi was able to use that thanks to it or its Roshi's KKG and the beast is able to use it while Roshi transformed ?

Also I think its a difference which applies first. Isn't it different if you apply Wind to Earth thus earth thats sharp and thin, and Earth to Wind thus wind able to change it's solidity/density ? Or Fire to Wind = Scorch and Wind to Fire thus sharp and thin fire ? (Laser) Because each chakra nature has 2 properties/behaviors:

But: However, there are exceptions to this in the "form of some mediums" (meaning its possible to control existing/real fire as well) example example 2
 * Fire Release: It is performed by moulding "superheated chakra" inside the stomach before releasing it via the lungs and mouth (so it's actually not fire just hot chakra) example

But: Wind techniques are usually performed by "generating air circulation and can be enhanced through this method as well" (control of real wind source/medium) example example 2
 * Wind Release: It is performed by "manipulating chakra to be as sharp and thin as possible" (sharp and thin chakra) example

But: Lightning is much more powerful when it "utilises natural lightning" example
 * Lighting Release: Allows the user to "generate lightning by increasing the high frequency vibrations of their chakra", allowing for piercing damage and fast movement, the electricity paralyses the target (fast vibrating chakra) example

But: Or to create it; be it dirt, mud, or rock and have the "ability to change the strength and composition" of the earth from being as hard as metal to as soft as clay example example 2 example 3
 * Earth Release: Allows the user to "manipulate the surrounding earth" example

But: Or create their own, by "turning their chakra into water" example Water Release techniques can not only "change shape but state as well" example 2
 * Water Release: Allows the user to "manipulate pre-existing water" example

What I'm trying to say that nature transormations are able to use pre-existing mediums, change chakra into an element or combine elemental chakra with pre-existing medium. Thus it's a difference if you add Earth Release properties into already existing earth or other source, create earth from chakra or just add Earth Release properties into something for example Sand/Raikage as Onoki did.

So it's possible to add Wind Release properties into real water, to add Wind Release properties into Water Release water. So it's a difference which elemental property is applied first and into what.

So it's not the same if you combine lighting/earth or earth/lighting. As I said, there are dozens of combinations possible. --Elveonora (talk) 03:13, November 12, 2011 (UTC)

So ? Also I think Sand is Wind+Earth, I have my own theories of course only if you are interested. --Elveonora (talk) 02:14, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

While its an interesting theory, elemental fusion is simultaneous. That means Wind + Earth is the same as Earth + Wind. One after the other is collaboration.Umishiru (talk) 02:24, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Well this entire "properties" thing is basically what I preach all the time :P. However, from what we've seen, there isn't going to be 20 combinations because there's a fixed pattern. Copy-pasting from what I proposed to Omnibender before: ''My current pattern theory for natures is that the "enhancing nature" affects the "main nature" in a counterclockwise direction on the nature transformation diagram. As I said before, Wind enhanced Water to create Ice, Fire enhanced Earth for Lava, Water to Lightning for Storm, Earth to Wind for some "solid wind" nature which Dust was previously a candidate for, and now, Lightning to Fire for Explosion. In my theory Ice can only be created from water, Lava from earth, Storm from lightning, and Explosion from fire, and Ice cannot be created from pre-existing wind, Lava cannot be created from fire, Storm cannot be created from water, and Explosion cannot be created from lightning (although unsure for now). My new idea is that this also applies to the adjacent element combinations. In a counterclockwise direction, Fire enhances Water to produce Boil, Water to Earth to produce Wood, Earth to Lightning to produce Magnetism (As the nature didn't create magnetic rocks or anything), Lightning to Wind for a theoretical "vibrating/fast/shattering wind", and Wind to Fire for Scorch, a phasing fire. Overall, Fire can be enhanced by Wind or Lightning, Wind can be enhanced by Lightning or Earth, Lightning can be enhanced by Earth or Water, Earth can be enhanced by Water or Fire, and Water can be enhanced by Fire or Wind. Kishimoto's more unorthodox natures like Storm seems to imply this pattern, which I plan to build on top of my old, partially failed theory. A counterclockwise direction may also be an interesting approach as opposed to the clockwise direct relationships the natures have.'' Oh and by the way the "opposite" and "adjacent" combinations are terms I used for my previous theory. In conclusion, I don't think there's going to be 20 kekkei genkai combinations because it looks like Kishi is showing us a pattern. When Lightning+Water turned out to be something no one really expected, I sensed this "direction of enhancement". If Water must enhance Lightning, Lightning will probably enhance Fire, Fire to Earth, Earth to Wind, and Wind to Water. It all makes sense so far, really. --GoDai (talk) 03:46, November 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * "Opposite" Recompositions:
 * Ice: Wind enhances Water; Floating ice; Can be produced from Water.
 * Lava: Fire enhances Earth; Molten earth; Can be produced from Earth. 
 * Storm: Water enhances Lightning; Fluid electricity; Can be produced from Lightning.
 * "Pressure"?: Earth enhances Wind; Solid air; Can be produced from Wind. (Previously thought of for Dust until it became a KT. I'm thinking since Gaara does not turn chakra into sand, he must be using a form of chakra that manipulates sand the way magnetism manipultes metal, which is why it's Magnetism Release, not Metal Release.)
 * Explosion: Lightning enhances Fire; Sudden combustion; Can be produced from Fire. (I previously had Blaze but I realized Explosion made so much more sense and it seems to work)
 * "Adjacent" Recompositions:
 * Scorch: Wind enhances Fire; Phasing heat; Can be produced from Fire. 
 * Boil: Fire enhances Water; Burning water; Can be produced from Water. 
 * Wood: Water enhances Earth; Trees growing from the earth in fluid forms; Can be produced from the Earth. 
 * Magnetism: Earth enhances Lightning; Magnetic energy; Can be produced from Lightning. 
 * "Resonate"?: Lighting enhances Wind; Vibrating air?; Can be produced from Wind. I see shockwaves in my mind, like the ones that you pointed out that were similar to Pulse.
 * Oh and I take a tiny bit of pride in Scorch Release, because I predicted Fire+Wind would be something along the lines of a superheated air. At the time Omnibender's table had Smoke fore Fire+Wind and Heat Release was an enhanced Fire, I think. I still do think Smoke would've worked out well too. --GoDai (talk) 03:57, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

I don't think so. It's not the same if you pour water into acid and acid into water. I will try to explain again. Wind+Earth, adding wind properties into earth as a medium. Earth+Wind, adding earth properties into wind as a medium.


 * Fire+Wind = Scorch (making wind release hot, evaporating water at a molecular level)
 * Wind+Fire = Laser (Sharp and Thin beams of fire)
 * Fire+Lighting = Flash (Lighting moving at speed of light)
 * Lighting+Fire = Heat (Highly vibrating waves of fire causing heat in weather)
 * Fire+Earth = Magma (Heated earth)
 * Earth+Fire = Lava (Fire with changed composition)
 * Fire+Water = Steam (Evaporating water)
 * Water+Fire = Boil/Acid (creating an acidic hot mist)
 * Wind+Lighting = Energy
 * Lighting+Wind = Explosion (Highly vibrating electrons [sparks] getting in contact with oxigen in a high air pressure causing an explosion)
 * Wind+Earth = Sand (wind cutting and shaping earth minerals into sand)
 * Earth+Wind = Crystal (Creating Crystals in the air from various compositions by increasing their density)
 * Wind+Water = Bubble (cutting and shaping water to create bubbles)
 * Water+Wind = Ice (making wind solid)
 * Lighting+Earth = Quake (vibrating thus shaking ground)
 * Earth+Lighting= Magnetism (increasing the potency of electrones)
 * Lighting+Water = Shock (rotating water under voltage)
 * Water+Lighting = Plasma/Storm Release (changing state and shape of electricity into beams of lighting)
 * Water+Earth = Mud (changing state of earth into liquid)
 * Earth+Water = Corrosion (increasing density and potency of water thus making the corrosion instant)

I have yin,yang,yin-yang and also 3 element combinations in mind but will post them later because its too long. If you are dunno where Wood is, just ask :P --Elveonora (talk) 09:38, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Well I was previously one of those people that strongly beleived that there were going to be 20 combinations, a bit similar to your ideas. This was also supported by the fact that Mei's Lava Release was using a different kanji that could potentially mean "corrosion", although it turned out to be just lava in the anime. Anyway, the Japanese wording is crucial for me. You see, while pouring water into acid and pouring acid into water are different, that's not exactly how simultaneous nature transformation works, it's more like suddenly having water and acid mixed together without a certain order. They aren't mixing two different chakras, they're giving one body of chakra two properties at the same time to create a completely new chakra. The whole reason Kishi emphasized this is because: I hope that gives you an idea of what I think, and hopefully it gives you more ideas for discussion. I think you have a lot of similar ideas as me, like the Left Eye Fire and Right Eye Yin for Blaze (It makes sense because Uchiha have been attributed to those two :P). --GoDai (talk) 09:56, November 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * Nature Transformation, often misunderstood, is giving one's own chakra some properties to turn it into different forms of matter and energy. It basically "disguises" your chakra and makes the environment react the same way it would with the real thing, since "nature" refers to "properties" or "behavior". When one manipulates pre-existing elements, I believe they are using a small amount of this natured chakra to "pull" on rest of the already-existing element, making it follow the chakra's movements. I think you already said something similar, althought nature transformation is really both of the things you said. It gives things properties, but it does that because the chakra itself carries these properties, and one converts chakra into the element by giving the chakra near-identical properties.
 * Therefore, when one simultaneously gives their chakra the properties of two elements, they're basically creating something that's perfectly two things at the same time, in a way. In this case, Lava would be like Fire and Earth, both at the same time, since it carries both sets of properties. Now the big question is why doesn't it turn into a solid, dense fire then. I think of it as dominant and recessive characteristics, when they co-exist, some characteristics suppress others, resulting in a molten earth, with fire being the enhancing element and earth the enhanced element. Since Kishimoto clearly told us it was simultaneous transformation of two natures, it's actually logically impossible for there to be two different things, with the information we've been given. Don't get me wrong; 20 natures is extremely possible in this case, although it would be slightly awkward with what Kishi has told us.
 * Fire enhances Earth. Earth enhances Wind (unknown). Wind enhances Water. Water enhances Lightning. Ligthning enhances Fire. Next, Fire enhances Water, Water enahnces Earth, Earth enhances Lightning, Lightning enhances Wind (unknown), and Wind enhances Fire. All these make sense so far, and I find it quite strange that Kishi hasn't shown us any of the reverse of these(We haven't seen Lightning enhancing Water, Water enhancing Wind, and so on).
 * And I'm guessing you're going for the Wood is Earth/Water/Yang? XD --GoDai (talk) 09:56, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Exactly with the Wood and Blaze stuff. Also I think 1st element is always used as an enhancer/amplifier and the 2nd one as a medium. It's still 2 natures used simultaneously just one applied to other. If it were combining both mediums and applying both to each other, the result from water and wind would be Blizzard with sharp and thin hail-stones that are able to change solidity or something. --Elveonora (talk) 11:30, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Well, that's what I mean when I say they have dominant and recessive roles when their properties overlap. It's really about what's more natural and which one automatically and naturally takes which role for me. Since it is practically impossible to be solid and fluid at the same time, hot and cold at the same time, matter and energy at the same time, etc., the "simultaneously combined" result will appear to only bear some properties of one thing and some properties of another. Ice is made of water, but the ice mirrors float, which is similar to what we've seen for other Wind-related elements like Scorch and Dust, and possibly the nature responsible for sand manipulation. This is probably because they naturally fall into the roles, as a fluid wind is a bit redundant compared to, let's say, a fluid lightning. There's also quite a deal of Japanese traditional culture and the Godai involved. --GoDai (talk) 11:46, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

I like the way of your thinking, but im still after my theory :P Did you read all my combinations ? Also, how do you know about my Wood and Blaze stuff ? Did you read that or you think that as well ? : D --Elveonora (talk) 11:50, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Well let's just say I think about every single possibility over and over again to reach the best conclusions. I read things everywhere, and the Blaze thing, I even have the Fire Yin thing on my page. The Wood thing was a guess, I've thought of the idea myself and I was wondering for only about 5 seconds when I saw that you didn't have Wood in your list. I was actually quite surprised when I saw you say a lot of your ideas, because they sounded extremely similar to what I mentioned quite a long time ago. --GoDai (talk) 12:23, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

About Sand Manipulation
For now, I think sand manipulation is granted by a nature that's not called Sand, although it may be vague. I did have "pressure" in the pattern theory I always preach, since I predict the combination of Earth and Wind will be Earth enhancing the Wind to create a "solid wind", which allows Gaara to manipulate sand. Sand is very often related to pressure, with a lot of Gaara's techniques being based on utilising it. I feel that the chakra being used is something like a mass of dense, pressurized air that is being used to shape the sand, because sand is the ideal material for such form of air to interact with, being easily carried by it. When Gaara crushes targets with sand he's using his chakra, infused inside, to press it in, and I imagine this chakra is in the form of something like dense, invisible air bubbles that push and carry the sand. It's really up for debate, and since it's so vague other ideas would be very welcome ^^. --GoDai (talk) 12:23, November 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * Magnetism Release manipulates metal. It does not turn chakra into metal, but rather into a metal-manipulating force.
 * "Pressure(? Or some other name.)" Release manipulates sand. It does not turn chakra into sand, but rather into a sand-manipulating force.

Im happy we have/had similar ideas. I think it's (again my part : D) Wind+Earth not Earth+Wind, because again theres wind cutting and shaping minerals in earth into sand. Earth+Wind I have for Crystal since its Earth Creating Crystals in the air from various particles by increasing their density. But who knows, maybe you are right and maybe I am ... or even both of us are wrong. Also do you know some other popular theories/speculations I should know about ? I have not read other's talkpages ... I'm new to this. So if ya have for me more interesting theories not limited to advanced natures, then bring them to me and we can discuss :P Also what do you think is with Kekkei Tota stuff ? I used to think something, but I changed it. --Elveonora (talk) 12:33, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Well I do have my own theory page, and I'm sure several other people also have really good theory pages. Mine hasn't been updated for quite a while so there's a lot of my old theories in it. And kekkei tota is also another reason I don't think order matters; Kishi will go crazy if there's 6 different combinations for each set of 3 elements. --GoDai (talk) 20:34, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, but what you think a Kekkei Tota is ? I don't think Kishi will go crazy, Im not saying he will reveal all the combinations before the manga's end just that its a possibility. --Elveonora (talk) 06:48, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

I'm really quite unsure of what a Kekkei Tota is. It's generally translated as "Bloodline Selection", so I'm guessing the "selection" part is referring to something similar to natural selection and artificial selection and the like. It may be referring to selection of certain genes to achieve certain effects. While it is very possible Kishi won't reveal all the kekkei tota natures by the end, that would mean many fans may be left discontent and from what I see, Kishi will probably try to reveal all of them if possible. This is a much easier job for him if there's only 10 triple natures rather than 60. And if there's 10, it's much less crazy since he could easily create a scenario where all of them appear at once (Similar how we had the sudden introduction to new natures at the Kage Summit). I know I'm speaking too much based on the flow of the plot and stuff, but it's another good factor to consider.
 * On another note, Wood could be only be a triple if Yin and Yang work differently from the other Five natures in regards to kekkei genkai and kekkei tota. This is because I almost remind myself of how Shikaku was so shocked to discover that there was someone other than Onoki who had kekkei tota. This means that Wood Release, which is in Konoha itself, is most likely not a kekkei tota. The only logical theories for kekkei tota are Blaze, since we know so little about it, and Crystal, which was anime-only and the nature itself perplexed nearly every character that saw it in action. --GoDai (talk) 02:10, November 16, 2011 (UTC)

I see. Can you please once again explain me your "formula" how you think the advanced natures are selected ? Yes, Yin and Yang are not nature transformations since it's not elemental ... Thats why I guess it was removed from the Rinnegan. Yin and Yang are transformations of chakra but not into nature. My guess is that yin and yang are being used from the start without even us really noticing. Iruka said something at Chunin exams, and few more times it was mentioned but I dont remember the examples now. I think every not elemental technique uses yin and yang. For example: What Im trying to say is that every technique uses a different ammount of Yin compared to Yang. When Its "only" Yin, its a Yin Release Technique (Genjutsu). When its "only" Yang, its a Yang Release Technique (Medical Ninjutsu). When its 5:5 Yin and Yang, its a Yin-Yang Release (Izanagi and stuff).
 * Shadow Clones its 3 Yin : 7 Yang
 * Clone Technique 7 Yin : 3 Yang
 * Genjutsu 10 Yin : 0 Yang
 * Medical Ninjutsu 0 Yin : 10 Yang

Wood Release is still Water+Wood thus 2 elements but only Yang chakra is being used thus I see it something like: But in case of Yamato I think he uses Yin instead most of time ... its because:
 * Yang+Water (Chakra able to change shape and state that gives life) enhancing earth as a medium, thus its earth given "life" (Wood).
 * Except one technique, its wooden pillars instead of trees.
 * Kabuto used him to strenghten Zetsu, and if he is the same as Hashirama then there would be no point because he is just a weaker "clone"
 * Those with Hashirama's cells are said to physically boosted (given Yang energy)
 * Yamato' wooden pillars changed into a trees with Kyubi's yang chakra, thats another reason I think when its pillars its Yin, when trees its Yang.

Blaze as I said and think is Amaterasu(Fire Release)+Yin Release. Crystal is not canon though, which is said because I think Guren arc. was one of the best and most detailed fillers to date and her Character had some quality. But its possible Crystal is Kishimoto's idea and if Guren is ever to appear in manga (Its unlikely, but possible) I would be happy.

So you are right, Wood Release is just Kekkei Genkai. My original idea of it being Tota is away since I changed it into something other. --Elveonora (talk) 06:23, November 16, 2011 (UTC)

Tota refers to the selection of genes based on their usefulness, like how breeders create new breeds of dogs by mixing certain other breeds to produce the desired traits, not natural selection. Skitts (talk) 06:44, November 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmm well I was never great at genetics. So... isn't that more like artificial selection then? --GoDai (talk) 08:19, November 16, 2011 (UTC)

Disorder/Malfunction Release?
Yo I realized we didn't complete the discussion for your idea. I'm still not sure how I would phrase malfunction in one kanji yet. I was thinking something like disorder, but I'm not sure if it would convey the right message right at the first moment you hear it. From what you said, I'm thinking you're saying it's something like completely disabling systems, and hence screwing up and nullifying nearly anything? Or is this idea scrapped? --GoDai (talk) 11:58, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Well other names for it could be break or fail release. The idea is like energy that causes objects to malfunction, misfire, or not work at all. For example, a fire ball jutsu is launch and collides with a fail release tech, depending on what the user wants the jutsu to do the fireball could miss the target, explode in the casters face if the element was launched early and fast enough or dissipate when it collides, sort of like a negating nature.Umishiru (talk) 18:54, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

If you're looking for a kanji, try 乱. It means riot, disorder or disturbance. Thus, a Disorder (混乱, Konran) nature and Disorder Release (乱遁, Ranton). A nature screwing any system up it comes in contact with, be it machines, living organisms or even attacks although the latter could lead to the presumption that it could even screw up molecules. In this case a more fitting name would be Chaos Release (The kanji would still fit.). But I'd say it consists of Water, Lightning and either Yin or Yang. I'm kind of tending to Yin, I don't know why. Well, water and lightning (electricity) are often the cause of malfunctioning in (electronical) systems. And Yin or Yang could empower these characteristics. DarkblueFlow (talk) 21:51, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

Well I believe my original or later suggestion was Lighting + Water + Yin.Umishiru (talk) 21:54, November 13, 2011 (UTC)

乱遁 for me means something more close to chaos, which many of us have already considered. I'm not too sure if the Error/Malfunction/Break/Fail concept of Water and Lightning are closely related enough. Maybe "Disruption" would be a better name. You might wanna ask Shounenuki to confirm the context of the kanji, to make sure it really fits. I feel the way the nature works is very similar to Scrambler's powers in X-men, which messed with systems, messing with and nullifying other jutsu by disrupting systems within them. --GoDai (talk) 01:22, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

Well a Scramble release is further from water. Other words coul dbe Jumble, Muddle, Confuse, Turmoil, Baffle, Mistake, Mess, Disarrange. After thinking about it, perhaps Disturb?Umishiru (talk) 21:11, November 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * Disturb would still use 乱 in the Release term. The nature term would change to 騒乱 (Sōran, lit.: Disturbance). Well, of course I'd still like to hear ShounenSuki's opinion to my translation. DarkblueFlow (talk) 21:52, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

Hahaha this is challenging. Doesn't fire also disturb :P? I generally think "disruption" has a nice feeling, I imagine that "static" electric effect that machines experience when they malfunction, and I could imagine this sort of visual working out for anything failing. You know, like a slight static shock effect on things to show they're "malfunctioning, overloaded, or burned out". --GoDai (talk) 02:29, November 16, 2011 (UTC)

swift release
Could Earth+Wind also be a combination for swift release since we now know that earth release can make objects weigh less and wind is already an element you incorporated? 166.248.74.12 (talk) 20:26, November 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * Earth is still associated primarily with density, not speed. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:07, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

Fire+Lighting = Flash/Swift Release --Elveonora (talk) 21:53, November 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * That combination is more appropriate for Explosion Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:00, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

I think Explosion is Lighting+Wind. Fire can't make Lighting explode. --Elveonora (talk) 23:15, November 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * Fire and lightning both create explosions. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:30, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

Not really. Fire can't explode and lighting neither ... unless you have a proof or something. --Elveonora (talk) 23:38, November 14, 2011 (UTC)
 * Lightning hits stuff, the energy in it passes to what was hit. Thunder is basically the air exploding due to rapid expansion. Fire doesn't explode everything, but if you throw fire into anything flammable, you'll get an explosion. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:45, November 14, 2011 (UTC)

But that's not reason for explosion. I think it's Lighting + Wind. Pure Oxigen is highly explosive. Lighting Release is basically super vibrating electrons. Electrons can't explode by themselves. Adding heat thus Fire Release would just make them move faster, generating even more heat. But hitting someone with Lighting Release makes friction, thus sparks. Sparks will detonate the oxygen in the Wind Release ... Boom! --Elveonora (talk) 01:01, November 15, 2011 (UTC)
 * Fact is, Wind Release doesn't consist of oxygen, just moving air. Air has about 21% oxygen in it, 78% nitrogen and the last 1% consists of various other gases. Oxygen isn't explosive, just oxidizing. That's why a burning candle goes out when it is put under a glass bowl for example, a flame needs oxygen and a fuel to survive. The oxygen in the moving air generated by Wind Release isn't enough to cause an explosion with the sparks from Lightning Release. Thus, Explosion Release is either Fire + Lightning or Earth + Lightning. DarkblueFlow (talk) 23:14, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

And for another argument, we all know Deidara had pride in his art but I really don't think he was that stupid to not use Wind Release against Sasuke. It's probably Earth+Lightning or Fire+Lightning. Not only does the first combination fit Magnet Release better, the second combination is also supported by the "fire" radical in the Explosion kanji. --GoDai (talk) 01:47, November 16, 2011 (UTC)

@DarkblueFlow, I know. If you read what I said above, I think that the 1st element is just an enhancer and the 2nd is a medium for it.

21% is really not enough, you are right ... oxygen itself is not flammable nor explosive but the higher % of oxygen around, the better the combustion. My theory is that lighting as an enhancer vibrates the real wind as a medium around the target. Human body has gas inside. When Gari's hand "hit" the enemy, the impact makes friction thus changing the high vibrations of electrons into a spark. With the wind centered around the target and the friction of his attack makes the human gas explode. In Deidara's case its a bit different. @GiDai, the argument has no weight because in 80% of cases, the KKG users has not used the elements that makes their KKG. Why Haku has not used Water or Wind against Sasuke's Fire ? Why did not Hashirama do a Water combo with his brother or why he has not cancelled Hiruzen's Earth ?

I think Deidara has: Fire,Wind,Lighting,Earth. (Im serious) "Fire" of Lighter is not fire at all just a flammable gas in form of liquid, ignited by the spark of Lighter.
 * Fire is not explosive itself since fire is just a combustion of oxygen.
 * Fire without a gas is not explosive.
 * Lighting itself produce heat, so adding more heat will not cause an explosion without the assistance of other factors.

Deidara uses Earth Release Clay as a medium and fills it with Lighting,Wind and Fire chakra. Earth is very good since oxygen flows easily through it and in high quantity. He then uses Wind+Lighting to cut/separate the electrons thus creating a pure energy. The energy is then exploded with Fire. --Elveonora (talk) 07:05, November 16, 2011 (UTC)

Well what I meant was Deidara was getting owned by Sasuke's Lightning throughout the battle, due to it countering his Exploding Clay. Haku had no problems against Fire (In my theory page, I theorize that Fire is the opposite of Ice), and Haku clearly stated Sasuke's Fire technique was too low in level to melt his Ice mirrors, and Haku did use a Water Release technique, Thousand Flying Water Needles of Death. Not to mention, Ice and Wood were not mentioned to be kekkei genkai natures, and there is little proof that Kishi planned for Ice to be such a thing, he didnt even use the term Ice Release back then. Throughout the manga, Wood Release is seen to be extremely powerful, and there was really no reason whatsoever for Orochimaru to NOT make Hashirama use Wood Release. Despite common belief, there has been no clear proof that Fire will counter Wood, since we strangely never see characters coming up with the bright idea of burning the wood up. I'm sure not all wood burns easily, as there's a lot of conditions that affect that. I do realize the nature relationships aren't all that decides a battle's outcome, but Deidara didn't even try it. I just don't think Wind is necessary for the Explosion. Fire techniques don't need Wind for combustion, and neither should Explosion, I think. We've all seen science does not always work well in Naruto; Kishi's invention, chakra, often runs by its own rules. Lightning Release has actually only mentioned to be vibrating chakra so far in the series, so there's doubts to what form of lightning it really is. In science, a substance determines the properties, but in Naruto, chakra's properties and changes in these properties decide what substance it becomes. I personally believe it's actually better to study chakra-ology instead of using physics and chemistry since while the most common sense ones may make so much sense, Kishi makes quite a few science errors. That's just what I think. Instead of looking at what an actual explosion is, rather look at the terminology kishi prefers to use. In the databook entry for CO, it mentions "explosive chakra" which is what made me think of the possibility that Explosion could be a nature, before it was revealed to be one. In my opinion, the chakra just... explodes. Not a lot of technicality in science, a lot more technicality in the components and what they do. In my theory, Lightning's qualities modifies Fire. This works by giving the combustion aspect of Fire a sudden surging aspect (Lightning). This makes the combustion happen instantaneously and more powerfully instead of burning down over a period of time. That's what I think. --GoDai (talk) 08:15, November 16, 2011 (UTC)

One hint to know what element compromises a elemental fusion is that Kishi something has the user use one or both component elements separately at some point. It was how we determined Boil release as we knew it Was Lava + Earth from the Roshi info and so from Mei's conversation about having three elements it was only logical that Boil was Water + Fire. Storm was a tricky one since if you look at its talk page there was a bit of a debate there but Darui used its two component elements before using the fusion, which was revealed later on in a artbook or something.Haku used water first before using Ice so Kishi even though he didn't formulate element fusions way back then had a precedent for him to work on. Wood release was a hidden earth style jutsu before getting rec-toned into its own element, earth is a component of wood style, Onoki used Earth when fighting the Zetsu spore and that is a component of his Dust release. His granddaughter used Earth style before using lava element. It stands to reason that when a person has a elemental KKG of KKT Kishi hints on of the components when he makes them use a singular element. What as Diedara used so far? Earth, so from past evidence with KKG in general we can assume earth is a component. What is left in the earth combos? Wind, which doesn't remind me as explosion with earth at all, Lightning which is. Earth + Wind is more than likely gonna be whatever makes Onoki fly, Sand, or something else. Ps, I know i used both style and element, still recovering from the dub translations.Umishiru (talk) 14:51, November 16, 2011 (UTC)

As for the Fire + Lightning combination, it makes since as well. Fire is seen as starting explosions by lighting up the fuse or whatever, lightning itself is seen as an explosion of certain forces. Initiator + Energy to cause the explosion seems to be what follows from Fire + Lightning. One also has to understand that when Kishi merges elements he is merging certain aspects whether they are spiritual like Wood or particular aspects like Scorch.Umishiru (talk) 16:34, November 16, 2011 (UTC)

Comet Release
Since you are redoing the Fire + Earth + Yang combo what about instead Comet Release it serves a similar purpose only with a better connection to earth and fire. Comet appear as a glowing mass of of rock that burns as it travels. Its basically a rock who burns a bright whit/blue. There you go this element creates a rock made of rock and flame whose color and intensely is changed by Yang. Correct me if I am wrong but doesn't fire turn blue when it burns brighter? After all Madara meteor was just a giant rock that smashes the field.Umishiru (talk) 17:29, November 15, 2011 (UTC)
 * Thing is, comets don't have such a significant rock composition. It's dust, ice, and gases. I chose meteorite before because it survives entry in the atmosphere and ground impact. All other kanji for meteor and comets are already used up in Star Release and Fluid Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:38, November 15, 2011 (UTC)

Random Ideas
I was looking around and found this which i thought could make an igneous release (or something that makes sense) and could be used for fire+earth+yang/yin.
 * I'd say this would be a form of Lava Release having Shape Manipulation used on it. DarkblueFlow (talk) 16:23, November 16, 2011 (UTC)

Also, the Petroleum Release seems a little off to me so I thought a Weathering Release made a little more sense. Could you tell me what the idea behind petroleum was? I read the entry for it and all I could think of was that it would be like a stream of fire since adding fire chakra into anything makes it catch fire. This could also be used for earth+wind combination in your 2 element chart instead of sand. Joshbl56 02:51, November 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Well if I may add my thoughts, "adding" Fire chakra doesn't really make things catch fire, it seems more to be based on adding kinetic energy and giving them deconstructive properties. For example, among Lava, Boil, Dust, and Scorch, none of them are really on fire, but usually have an effect involving changing the states of other forms of matter in regards to evaporation, melting, and deconstruction, since adding kinetic energy makes particles move faster, causing particles to fall apart. In kekkei genkai and kekkei tota nature transformation, we arent combining the elements themselves, but their natures, or properties. It's like taking the process of turning chakra into Fire chakra, and taking the process of changing chakra into Earth chakra, and doing them at the same time, and hence simulatenous transformation into two natures. Petroleum makes sense since petroleum is produced from the earth, burns well, and is liquid. For me, it's like a liquid Coal Release, and I didn't really find a problem with it. Also, I did propose weathering before, but a lot of basic nature techniques seem to be capable of more than weathering. --GoDai (talk) 05:02, November 16, 2011 (UTC)

Weathering itself seems to be covered by Rust release. I know when I first came up with it, weathering was the basis for the idea before rotting which can be stretched as a form a weathering was added in.Umishiru (talk) 14:37, November 16, 2011 (UTC)