Talk:Kaguya Ōtsutsuki

Contradictions
This page says Kaguya was the first human to possess Chakra. The Chakra page says chakra is in every cell of the body. Thus the two pages contradict each other as the chakra page implies every human has chakra. I think the correct interpretation of is to say Kaguya was the first human able to use chakra. Krikara (talk)Krikara
 * How does it contradict? She was the first human to have Chakra, now every human has Chakra. There always has to be a first one, hm? Seelentau 愛議 17:19, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * They do not contradict, as the sage was the first to be born with it. However, Madara does say that she is the first to be able to use it. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 17:21, September 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * They do contradict unless you want to assume that every Shinobi in the Naruto universe is related to Kaguya. And it has been proven in the past that not all shinobi are related to the Sage of the Six paths, so we know they aren't all related to Kaguya as well. There simply is no first person that has chakra, but rather everyone has chakra. It is just that people didn't know how to use it back then. Krikara (talk) 19:16, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * I think we should wait for raws. In any case, she would have to have been the first person to have chakra in the sense that she could actually mould and use it. Every living thing has chakra, they just didn't know how to use it before.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 17:49, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Nope, it was the Sennin who found out how to create it from those energies. His mum got the chakra as a whole. Seelentau 愛議 18:16, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * The translation says Rikudo Sennin was the first person to wield chakra. This means to use with skill. Kaguya had an excessive amount of chakra that made her godlike, but that doesn't mean she could wield it, meaning use ninjutsu, genjutsu, etc. She probably used chakra as raw power, like how Rock Lee utilizes his chakra. Krikara
 * No, it says that he was the first born with it. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 19:15, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * Also, Ninjutsu wasn't even a term at that time. Seelentau 愛議 19:18, September 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * It says he was the first born who could wield chakra. Which is different from the first born with chakra. No one before him understood how to manipulate chakra.Krikara (talk) 19:20, September 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * He learned how to create chakra. His mother oviously knew how to use the chakra from the fruit. Seelentau 愛議 19:22, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

Maybe the fruit was one of knowledge, not power. She simply learned how to control chakra already in her body upon eating it. Otherwise it really doesn't make sense, because everyone would have to be descended from her or So6p, but that contradicts what Madara said and gives one less of a reason for the tree to take it "back"--Elveonora (talk) 21:02, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

Rinnegan
Shouldn't she have the Rinnegan since she was the original human who used Chakra? Her son had to inherit his kekkei genkai from somewhere. --ElvinWindSword (talk) 21:51, September 15, 2013 (UTC)ElvinWindSword
 * No. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:00, September 15, 2013 (UTC)

All Kekkei Genkai has to be inherited from somewhere, the Sage's Rinnegan couldn't have appeared out of no where. Eventhough we can't add her as a user until it's confirmed in the manga, can't we state in the trivia section of the page that she could be the possible source of the Rinnegan? --ElvinWindSword (talk) 22:32, September 15, 2013 (UTC)ElvinWindSword


 * The first known person to have the Rinnegan is the Sage. The Rinnegan had to start somewhere, and he was the start. Your own logic.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 22:38, September 15, 2013 (UTC)

Sasuke is the first known user of Blaze Release and Hashirama Senju is the first known user of Wood Release but the Kekkei Genkai is stated as an Uchiha Clan Kekkei Genkai and Senju Clan Kekkei Genkai (respectively), so why are those blood line limits listed as properties of their user's clan? If one person's ability is extended to the rest of their relatives, why isn't Kayuga listed as a possible origin for the Rinnegan in the trivia section? --ElvinWindSword (talk) 23:55, September 15, 2013 (UTC)ElvinWindSword
 * Wrong. Sasuke is not the first known user on account of Tobirama knowing what a Kagutsuchi was. Sasuke is the only Uchiha we know that has used the technique, he's not the only user of it though. So your whle theory falls apart there.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 00:04, September 16, 2013 (UTC)

You are right about Sasuke but my theory still stands firm since Hashirama is the first known example of a wood release user, yet his whole clan is attributed to the blood line limit. So Kayuga being stated as a possible user in the trivia section is feasible since the Hagaromo gained his abilities from his mother (just like how all blood line limits are passed on: from your parents/ancestors)--ElvinWindSword (talk) 00:15, September 16, 2013 (UTC)ElvinWindSword
 * Wood Release is associated with the Senju because they became known as the Senju Clan of the Forest under Hashirama's command, him being the one to have it. Kaguya being listed as a possible user is not feasible. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:20, September 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hashirama's abilities were called a kekkei genkai hijutsu in any case, and while we could speculate why, it is not unheard of in the first place: Kimimaro had the Shikotsumyaku and none of his clan members did but it was a known kekkei genkai in the clan. Point of the matter is, we don't know the full story so we're not going to attribute the Rinnegan to Kaguya, not even in trivia speculation.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 00:27, September 16, 2013 (UTC)

Nobody should write any speculations...I remember quite well how some people wrote how Tobi aka Madara is alive due to his strong chakra...Then it turned out that most childish theory is right and all fancy theories about Madara are wrong... Until we have confirmed information about what Kaguya had of powers, nobody shall write any speculation, even if they are based on facts, because in this manga there are no facts until we have prof...Also stop writing all those Bible stuff...Fans don't come to narutopedia to read about religions...YamatoTakeru (talk) 19:01, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

Tenpenchii?
The panel on page 12 of chapter 670 shows that Kaguya is manipulating something similar to Tenpenchii. Does she count as a user? KazeKitsune (talk) 17:05, March 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't quite think she's a user, but I do think it's similar enough to bring up in the trivia section. I made a topic about that in that article's talk page earlier today. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:16, March 26, 2014 (UTC)

Species.
Is she a human though? She had "horns" and whatnot BEFORE consuming the fruit, so they aren't a "side effect" of eating it. Sage also said "She came TO your land from a far away place", and people called her the "Rabbit Goddess" or "The Demon".

Yes, the Sage is "human", but that side could come from his father or something. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 05:34, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

Are we sure it's not just some headdress? Well, her son obviously has real horns, but those might be because of him having been a jinchuuriki I suppose. She has this weird sex-appeal about her. Hot, but scary at the same time.--Elveonora (talk) 10:56, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

There is no front to this "headdress" nor do any of the images of her show anything under her hair to suggest it is either. When the Sage and his brother were fighting the beast, it shows that they both already have spiked protrusions out of their foreheads. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 11:25, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

It's pointless for us to speculate anyway. If we are ever told otherwise, we will note so--Elveonora (talk) 11:30, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

Do we even know if the image we have of her is from before she consumed the fruit? For all we know, she got the horns from eating the fruit, and her sons were born with it because she ate the fruit. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:49, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * As could be seen here she already had horns before the consumption of magical fructose--Elveonora (talk) 19:44, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Before 670, I would have said that was an elaborate headpiece. Also, please don't put such a convoluted link, it looks awful when editing. I changed the link to look much cleaner. Take a look. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:05, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, thanks I suppose... and I know how to link properly, I just don't have a problem with a longer link unlike "someone" ;) I mean, if there are like 3 ways to link something, why to use just one? ^_ For her species, she is definitely related to humans, since she gave birth to a man which conceived twins who gave birth to two human clans, so yeah. Although this is Japanese myths we are talking about where gods get born outta washing of nose and so on. I wouldn't be surprised if she turned out to be a demigod or something like that. But just a hypothetical question, if she turns out to be a god/demigod or if we learn that she "transcended" humanity after eating the fruit, how would we classify her?--Elveonora (talk) 22:26, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

It's interesting how similar her appearance is to the Shinigami IMO. Arrancar79 (talk) 22:49, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

"deceased"
How do we know that? We shouldn't just bet on the obvious that she has to have died of old age or something. Especially since it's been stressed how So6p was far above a mere human, with her having been even more powerful.--Elveonora (talk) 19:41, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * You know. I was going to argue against this because, holy titans that is just stupid. But is far less stressful to just let the stupid be.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 20:00, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Deceased. Deceased everywhere. Not to be rude, but dead is dead. Hagoromo himself stated to have died. Congratulations to him for somehow managing to live as floating chakra through the ages, but dead stays dead. There are those who say that Kaguya is the Shinigami now, but obviously that's speculation, just like saying that she isn't dead.--JOA20 (talk) 20:22, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except we were told So6p died, while we weren't about his mother. We simply can't just assume that "Oh, x character must be deceased because it was y time ago under z circumstance"--Elveonora (talk) 22:02, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah, that's your point. Well, it's a bit difficult. Was Kaguya immortal? No, or at least we don't know. She was talked about in past or present tense? Past, by both Hagoromo and Madara, and the former is way more reliable than the latter. So I guess she's dead. Or at least we can leave it to that until more info is added.--JOA20 (talk) 22:07, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Presumed Deceased is the way to go. That's because stating deceased sounds too certain, like if we were 100% undoubtedly sure, which we aren't until we are told she is dead or are shown her corpse in a coffin. I wouldn't be so paranoid under normal circumstances if we were talking about some ordinary person, but this chick has horns and ate magical god fruit.--Elveonora (talk) 22:15, March 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * She's dead. List her as such. Don't even entertain otherwise. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 22:23, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

Well, I rather us not list her as anything in that case if presumed deceased is stretching it too far.--Elveonora (talk) 22:29, March 27, 2014 (UTC)

Name
In chapter #670 and according to the raws, her name is written in katakana (カグヤ) while in her first debut. Her name was written in hiragana (かぐや). So which one we choose to be her name? — Shakhmoot  (Talk) 20:42, March 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Bump :) — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 22:36, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

What did we do before in similar cases? I think the more frequent one should be used, while the less frequent put to trivia.--Elveonora (talk) 12:04, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

Only other case I can think of is Karura. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:28, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

I think it is to show Hagoromo's way of talking that moment. He changed it, so Naruto could understand him better. Narsha (talk) 18:04, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure that changing the script has that effect here, since they both say the same thing. This also happened with Sasuke saying Kagutsuchi at one point, and that meant nothing. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:27, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

kaguya clan
this might be off topic and probably is pure speculation...: if U look at kaguya from above [chapter 670, page 11 if I'm not mistaken] U C a hair crack in her head exactly identical to kimimaro from KAGUYA clan...and also she has the somewhat similar 2 dots above her eyes...I'm not saying their 100% definitely related cause it would B ridiculous but......care to mention it somewhere like trivia or somethin...or at least give it a thought...though I'm suspecting I MIGHT B having a lot scorn & laughter headed my way...& maybe angry complaints from the precious staff here :] --DARK ZER06 (talk) 23:34, March 29, 2014 (UTC) --DARK ZER06 (talk) 23:39, March 29, 2014 (UTC)

Well the two dots are her eyebrows, but it's actually a cultural note. Like Powdered wigs in the west, the eyebrows shaved to a dot was a cultural trait of nobility in Japan. We'll have to check the kanji or whatever, but it might be a decent note of trivia if a clan that bears her name and similar appearance happens to have appeared prior. It could point to some distant relation or a note towards her worship (Given she was considered both a goddess and a demon) --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 00:39, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

plus Kimimaro looks similar to Indra, and theres also a Hagoromo clan...--RexGodwin (talk) 00:48, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

seriously :/...wow...Ddn't know that kind of stuff...thanx 4 the info btw hawkI...and as U said she was called the rabbit goddess...and the first color of rabbit that strikes into mind is white...and clearly as shown in manga her hair is probably white...also resembles the hair color of kimimaro...just noticed these similarities & thought it might B good 2 mention them...--DARK ZER06 (talk) 00:53, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

I wanted to create a section in hagoromo clan's talk page but decided that it was unnecessary...however Cns rex brought it up here I should say that...yeah there's this clan too...and a member of them was found where both UCHIHA & SENJU were...it might also be worth mentioning in a trivia that these namings after kaguya or hagoromo may indicate that other clans beside uchiha 7 senju had ties to these members of the otsutsuki clan...--DARK ZER06 (talk) 00:59, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

Well in terms of the Hagoromo thing, they both have the same meaning, but use different characters, but both refer to the Feather Mantle, or Angel Raiment, whichever you wanna use from myth. The Kaguya clan and our Rabbit Goddess however, both use the exact same spelling. So that's spelling, same cultural grooming and similar hair parting. The Kaguya are also known for "Savage battle tactics and archaic values." Whilst Kaguya herself was called both Goddess and Demon and archaic, let's be honest, is just another word for old. So it could very well be that, as insane and misguided as they were, the Kaguya were originally worshipers of the lady herself, taking from her a sort of Survival of the fittest attitude and keeping a religious and fanatical adherence to this until their destruction. While that is just a theory, we don't have a lot of information, I think with what we do have, there's at least enough for a trivia note. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 01:02, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

Looking back at the chapter where it was discussed between Kabuto and Orochimaru, he said it was a long time since people like them, whose only purpose was to murder were of any use and that they attacked Kirigakure using brute force and without allies. Basically put, everything about them seems to point to them as being a clan from the Warring Clans period, like the Senju and Uchiha, who simply never allied themselves to the villages and continued to treat people outside the clan as enemies. And given the note of similarity to Indra, they could easily be a clan who descended on his side, believing him to be right, or even being a branch clan much like the the Uzumaki are to the Senju. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 01:19, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

The kanji of her given name and Kimimaro's clan are the same. So it is at least trivia worthy. But Hagoromo's given name and Hagoromo (clan) are written differently, they are unlikely to be related in any way.--Elveonora (talk) 12:03, March 30, 2014 (UTC)

considering she's already been proven an ancestor of Uchiha, Uzumaki, Senju, and Hyuga, as well as whatever clan Kinkaku and Ginkaku belong to, its not outside the realm of possibility to link a half dozen more bloodlines to her. Shadowfox337 (talk) 17:53, April 4, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya's strength
"praised his mother's might as superior to his own."

That's very presumptuous, seeing as "she was more powerful than anyone" could also imply before himself. Pesa123456789 (talk) 11:48, March 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * What's your point? ~IndxcvNovelist (talk 12:16, March 31, 2014 (UTC)

He could just be saying it sarcastically, like for example some characters fear there mother's like Shikamaru. Just thought id add that in there. Munchvtec (talk) 15:25, March 31, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not really... the context is important, he didn't have lol-like face. He is a serious folk--Elveonora (talk) 17:23, March 31, 2014 (UTC)

Point is, the wiki is supposed to stick with solid facts, and not guess at meaning of phrases that are open-ended. Pesa123456789 (talk) 09:10, April 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * There's nothing open-ended about what he said.--Elveonora (talk) 12:20, April 1, 2014 (UTC)

Kaguya is stronger than Hagoromo, even with Juubi sealed in him. 671 pretty much proves that. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 15:56, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Sharingan?
Who added the Sharingan to Kaguya's profile? Hagoromo said in no uncertain terms she had the Byakugan and the Rinnegan. There was no mention of the Sharingan, which if we are to believe Kakashi from Pt I, is a mutation of the Byakugan (this has all but been expressly confirmed).--Reliops (talk) 11:03, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's confirmed in the manga. :) ~IndxcvNovelist (talk 11:05, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

I stand corrected. Just got my hands on a proper scan.--Reliops (talk) 11:06, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

It seems she was the first Sharingan user and Indra was the second. She was also the Byakugan Originator. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 14:49, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that's sharingan, as much as it's the juubi's eye. THat's why Hagoromo said powers of the sharingan rather than the sharingan. It's a similiar yet diffrent dojutsu. If we're to consider this a sharingan, then we should give the Juubi sharingan as well, as the two are the exact same eyes.
 * I'm all for that. We should probably wait for the raw to see the precise wording, but I think it's pretty clear both 9 tomoe eyes count as Sharingan. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:26, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think this picture: File:Ten-Tails Eye.svg should be used as Kaguya's sharingan.—Entondark (talk) 23:36, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

But doesn't she just have the power of the Sharingan and Byakugan? so she shouldn't really be labeled as having those doujutsu; right? having the power and actually having the doujutsu are 2 different things--Deathmailrock (talk) 08:25, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Haven't you seen the big third eye on her forehead and the white eyes in her eye sockets? Seelentau 愛議 08:34, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

I believe that her third eye is both the Rinnegan and Sharingan, not just the latter... it has the rings, not to mention it would be a logical fallacy for her son to have "final stage" of the eye of an literal creator and originator of everything within Narutoverse--Elveonora (talk) 09:59, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * It has the rings, just like the normal Sharingan has, too. It was called Sharingan by Hagoromo, why arguing against that? Seelentau 愛議 10:56, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * I know what it was called, but it's illogical and contradictory. The Shinju and Kaguya having Sharingan means it came first, contradicting the Sharingan being a deviation from the Rinnegan. Now the Rinnegan is suddenly a deviation from the Sharingan? What's up with that?--Elveonora (talk) 11:33, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't know. I mean, it'S obvious that Kaguya's Sharingan is not the one we've known until now. It's like a triple Sharingan or so... but we can't go and say she didn't have the Sharingan, when the manga states that she had. Seelentau 愛議 11:53, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * But you must agree that it's weird. So it's "Sharingan" > devolves into Rinnegan > devolves into Sharingan again? ._.--Elveonora (talk) 12:02, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Mutations are always a tricky concept, so to say that one devolves into the other is a bit inaccurate. as we know we have the two tomoe sharingan, the three, the mangekyo, the perfect mangekyo achieved by taking another's eyes, and the rinnegan is recreated by infusing wood style and/or Ashura's chakra with a perfect mangekyo and/or Indra's chakra. to say that Rinnegan is the highest stage is just a preconception, Kaguya being the highest ancestor on the line with this mutation could have easily had both the Sharingan and Rinnegan aspects of the eye active at both times, which we saw Madara unable to do aside from using Susano'o with the Rinnegan.  I'm more interested now with whether Kaguya had another child for whom the byakugan was passed down, although, this does explain how the myth of the Sharingan being a descendant of the Byakugan would get started, since it would appear Kaguya had Byakugan before eating the fruit that granted her chakra and the traits of the Ten-tails, including what seems to be this absolute Sharingan. Shadowfox337 (talk) 18:03, April 4, 2014 (UTC)

Interesting. In my opinion Kaguya had to have had chakra before eating the fruit if she had the Byakugan, otherwise what point would there be in an eye that can see chakra?--Elveonora (talk) 18:17, April 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * The eye has other abilities including beyond 20/20 vision and 359 degree x-ray vision. since blood limits are genetic its highly plausible they were dormant without chakra to stimulate them, otherwise there wouldn't be all the lava style and magnet style users from different regions, and sharingan and rinnegan do not allow one to mimic blood limits meaning they would have a different origin root. she's also seen with the byakugan before the third eye appears in her forehead. This revelation has also given me considerable cause to expect some BS importance elevation in Hinata, the story has had more random plot twists than M Night Shyamalans movie career. kudos though for finally resolving the "sharingan descends from byakugan" plot hole. Shadowfox337 (talk) 20:33, April 4, 2014 (UTC)

I dunno; I mean having the power of something and actually having something are 2 different things..... what if those eyes in her sockets are just regular eyes and it's that 3rd eye that could see from a distance? (like Hiei) so that 3rd Eye had all of the powers....

and it never really said that the Sharingan descended from the Byakugan, ever.... it said that people WONDERED if it came from the Byakugan.... it was never stated as a fact but a theory that some people had in series and it was never stated to be a fact.... and doesn't the Byakugan also use chakra?

And maybe Sharingan is just the generic name for the eyes (so the Rinnengan are Sharingan, just a higher class Sharingan than the common ones)..... but it might not really be the Sharingan... maybe the Sage was just saying that that Jubi eye on her forehead was able to see like the Byakugan and Sharingan, but that doesn't really mean it actually was the 2 eyes.....

like how a Platypus is like a duck and a bear, but it isn't a duck or a bear......--Deathmailrock (talk) 01:55, April 5, 2014 (UTC)

Except her normal eyes lacked pupil's. there was no wondering about it, the in story tale of sharingan being descent of byakugan was mythology. and since we've seen that byakugan are a static inheritance instead of some have it some don't like the sharingan, the byakugan would more likely be a genetic inheritance whereas the sharingan would be a chakra based inheritance.

also, the platypus is still an animal kingdom anomaly, being an egg laying mammal with attributes of a duck and a Beaver (not Bear). Shadowfox337 (talk) 05:25, April 7, 2014 (UTC)

What's up
With stating her to have been progeny of all Hyuga? I don't feel like war-editing at the moment. We don't know if she was the first person with Byakugan. For all we know, she could have had parents and siblings who's descendants eventually came to be known as Hyuga.--Elveonora (talk) 16:06, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * But we don't. We know that every Hyūga is born with the Byakugan. Kaguya had it. If anything, word it differently. Something like "Kaguya is the earliest known predecessor of the Hyūga". Still conveys what we know, and not technically incorrect in any way. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:27, April 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Kaguya_%C5%8Ctsutsuki?curid=117038&diff=866490&oldid=866481--Elveonora (talk) 16:28, April 10, 2014 (UTC)