Talk:Blaze Release

QUESTIONS REGARDING TOPICS ALREADY IN THE TALK PAGE OR ITS ARCHIVES WILL BE REMOVED, ALONG WITH THE REPLIES TO IT

long story short
Latest chapter has proven an old theory that was argued to death here. Basically:
 * Amaterasu is Blaze Release
 * Kagatsuchi and Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi are 2 different techniques
 * Kagatsuchi can alter only flames cast by Amaterasu, therefore both eyes are required
 * While Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi uses only 1 eye and is Amaterasu+Kagatsuchi--Elveonora (talk) 11:54, June 25, 2014 (UTC)


 * There's no distinction to be made between "Kagutsuchi ", and " Enton: Kagutsuchi "; left eye's dōryoku—Amaterasu—is always necessary for Enton's creation.


 * That aside, if this gets the rest of you to finally acknowledge Amaterasu's black flames as Enton, then happy day, I guess. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 12:05, June 25, 2014 (UTC)


 * 1) How did last chapter prove that? Especially since it was used exactly the same as it always has.
 * 2) I don't see how you came from that. It was used, again exactly as it always has. He just didn't put the entire name in the panel.
 * 3) ....We knew this. Forever ago. I believe it was C or someone that stated he casts Amaterasu from left eye and Blaze Release from right. So...yay for being right again?
 * 4) I don't even know what this point is trying to say.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:09, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

There's plenty of instances where Sasuke has one eye closed and only one open and uses Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi and creates the flames with shape without having cast them with Amaterasu first and then shaped them. While this time, he used Amaterasu and then Kagatsuchi--Elveonora (talk) 12:11, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Care to provide when? The only one I have from recent memory where is actually closing his eye was when A was about to drop kick him to hell and back, and that time he already had Susanoo on blackfire.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:14, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * And by recent memory I mean my memory.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:17, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * There hasn't been a single instance in which we have witnessed Sasuke use his right eye alone to create the black flames. Many are still making the mistake of using the example from Chapter 641 as proof of it's Nature Transformation, when we were only seeing him continue to use his right eye's ocular power to accomplish what he said he intended to do in the preceding page: match Naruto's chakra output. This was after the flames were already present.


 * Sasuke's use of Kagutsuchi in this Chapter is no different than when he used it's first named example in Chapter 464, and that was called "Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi". There's no need to fabricate a discrepancy between Kagutsuchi with and without it's Nature Release prefix. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 12:25, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * And I'd like to point out once again that I find the notion of Blaze Release being Amaterasu's manipulated flames ridiculous. Shape Transformation does not make a Nature Release. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 12:28, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

Except Obito absorbed the Amaterasu in chapter 641 so there were no flames present when he used Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi, also chapter 632--Elveonora (talk) 12:38, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * We witness him using his right eye alone after the black flames are already present around his left hand in the preceding panel. That is not sufficient proof of his right eye being capable of creating Blaze Release. Amaterasu's Nature Transformation is always involved when we see him suddenly springing up the black flames as he's exclaiming "Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi". This is the first time the author's demonstrated Amaterasu's part in this cooperation of Sasuke's two ocular powers, and I believe that is only due to the limited circumstance he was put in—because of the minuscule time frame in which they're used together, we normally don't see it.


 * If anything, this chapter lends credence to what I tried explaining to you guys in the archived discussion. If Kagutsuchi alone could simply create the black flames from his body, or chakra, why cast Amaterasu in such close proximity? Because it's necessary. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 12:50, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, to me it is more than sufficient proof. In chapter 641 on one page there's no flame in his hand, while on another there suddenly is and you just assume that he must have cast the Amaterasu off the screen. Same in chapter 632, you simply assume that he cast Amaterasu off-panel prior to using Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi and saving Sakura. Assumptions aren't evidence--Elveonora (talk) 13:15, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * On the same token Elveonora, you assume that because it was shown offscreen, that it didn't happen. How many times have Naruto slammed a Rasengan at something, but never showed us forming the Rasengan? Did the Rasengan magically appear in his hand or did he use it offscreen The leverage SaiST has however of now actually seeing the combined efforts of casting Kagutsuchi, instead of just the Kagutsuchi part.?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:24, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ironically, that example of the Rasengan's formation and additional hands mirrors the situation we now have with Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi, and I brought that up a number of times in the archived discussion.


 * I'm assuming that both dōryoku are being used in tandem, because their roles have long been officially detailed to us; his right eye's creation of Blaze Release not being among them. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 13:31, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

So you mean to tell me that the "blaze release" gets omitted for no reason in particular and in the very chapter where we are actually shown black flame manipulation with Amaterasu and Kagatsuchi in a row and that the same was done in previous chapters but the Amaterasu was simply used off-screen... right. Either of us is paranoid :P But I'm an atheist, I believe in only what I can perceive and that being:


 * Usage of Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi without the Amaterasu having been shown to be cast prior and even in one instance only 1 of Sasuke's eyes shown open
 * This time Amaterasu is cast and then a technique called Kagatsuchi (without the blaze release part) is used to manipulate it
 * Therefore there's 2 ways to do it in my book--Elveonora (talk) 13:51, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

Home, sweet home~

Okay, so we have a new chapter and we have Sasuke using Amaterasu and afterwards Kagutsuchi. What we do not have is a Blaze Release prefix. This is the first time this has happened and either it's a mistake and we'll know it when the tankobon version is released, or it's intentional. Since there's no way for us to know if it's a mistake or not, we handle it as a fact.

Why is there no Blaze Release here? The answer is as obvious as it can get: There is no need to release the flames anymore, since Sasuke's done that with Amaterasu already.

This also confirms that Amaterasu is indeed Blaze Release, since the Kagutsuchi is what manipulates it. Any questions? • Seelentau 愛 議 19:37, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

Oh great. This again. This chapter did nothing new, we already knew everything that happened in it as far as Blaze Release is concerned. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:47, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

I think we should just document things as they come and what they appear to be at a time rather than dodging something forever and waiting for definitively definitive "proof" that may never come. And yes, we should also rationalize the information we are given, because we are humans and not bots/computers. And as such, it's more logical to assume that there's a reason for no Blaze Release prefix than that it is a mistake or was omitted for no reason in particular, even though it was always there the past 10 times or more the technique got used. It's all too coincidental that in the same chapter as it is omitted in, we are also shown for the first time Sasuke using Amaterasu beforehand rather than just Blaze Release: Kagatsuchi. And I don't eat the "amaterasu was used offpanel" theory. Surely Kishi could reserve a tiny panel for the Amaterasus if they were used, which I insist they weren't.--Elveonora (talk) 19:54, June 25, 2014 (UTC)