Talk:Madara Uchiha

SPECULATION WILL BE REMOVED

Quick Question
Does anyone know where the first mention of Madara is in the series (chapter wise)? I'm assuming it's during Naruto and Sasuke's fight at the end of Part 1, but I thought I'd ask. Skitts (talk) 18:11, January 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think the first time was in chapter 309. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 18:48, January 5, 2012 (UTC)

I think during part 1. Sasuke only looked at the statues and said how the valley is called. So yeah, Kyubi said "Uchiha Madara" for the first time. --Elveonora (talk) 07:06, January 6, 2012 (UTC)

Moniker
Second of the Six Paths is Madara's Moniker not Tobi's as Madara actually awakened the Rinnegan, Tobi did not. Tobi even admits he is not Madara anymore whne he said his old name was Tobi. So put that Moniker on Madara's page too. 72.66.90.246 (talk) 14:12, January 11, 2012 (UTC)
 * I swore I brought this up already. Any way, Tobi called himself that regardless so I don't think it can be changed. Even though I believe that Madara is also the "Second Six Paths", he has never been called that personally. Besides it would seem that they both have the Rinnegan so it's a bit confusing.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 14:22, January 11, 2012 (UTC)

-____- its not confusing, Tobi stole the Rinnegan from the left eye of Nagato's corpse. Madara awakened his shortly before death, even if it was just because he had Hashirama's DNA, he still awakened it, making him the true Second of the Six Paths. Tobi was just using Madara's existence as his own, for his own goals and purposes, he admitted his name was actually Tobi when he told Naruto to call him by his old name, Tobi, if he wanted. 72.66.90.246 (talk) 03:27, January 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * That's still seen as an assumption. We can't give him the moniker until it's used in reference to Madara Uchiha directly. Giving him that moniker is like saying if Tobi had called himself the "Space-Time Migrating God of Shinobi" while "pretending" to be Madara then we should call Madara that.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 03:37, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Is not everything Tobi said about himself as Madara, actions and stuff of real Madara ? Like ... Tobi: "I fought Hashirama" real meaning: "Madara fought Hashirama" --Elveonora (talk) 13:10, January 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't know if everything he said about himself while "pretending" to be Madara is true since I'm a Hyūga and not Tobi's best friend . Just because Madara fought Hashirama, does that mean that Tobi didn't or couldn't have as well? I always say people are taking too hard a line on this Tobi/Madara thing before their story is revealed. Any way, like I said, though it's logical that Madara may be the Second Six Paths, unless it's attributed directly to Madara Uchiha.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 14:02, January 13, 2012 (UTC)

Protection Needed
Repeated vandalistic edits are being made to this page, requesting that the page be protected for a while. --speysider (talk) 11:56, January 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * Bumping this as the page is being vandalised again. --speysider (talk) 21:38, February 4, 2012 (UTC)

Madara's classification
Doesn't Madara's power befit an S-rank classification? It says on S-rank's article it is also classification given to extremely powerful missing-nin. Shouldn't S-rank be included in Madara's infobox? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 02:43, January 16, 2012 (UTC))
 * They're going based on Databook entries I believe, not on their own assumptions of power.-- Hohenheim ☯ Talk ☯  02:45, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

This is a common misconception. If you read the article on S-rank you wouldn't ask that. A shinobi's power is not gauged using those ranks, techniques are. Outside of that S-rank is used for missing-nin that have been classified as such in a Bingo Book or through the manga/[databook] like the Akatsuki I believe.--Cerez365™ 02:53, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Video game debut
The infobox says his debut was in Storm 2, but I really don't remember him being anywhere in there. Goofy Tobi was in it, and his awakening was serious Tobi with sharingan and all; maybe it's a remnant from the days when Tobi was Madara on here. Anyway, long haired, mangekyo-wielding, armoured Madara wasn't in Storm 2 as far as I recall.--Ferlize (talk) 21:09, January 16, 2012 (UTC)

Actually it was where Tobi was telling Sasuke the truth about Itachi. You had it right. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 00:02, January 17, 2012 (UTC))

Madara's power and mastery of Fire Release.
Madara Uchiha has demonstrated in use what has so far been the largest and strongest Fire Release technique in Uchiha clan, so would noting him as the most proficient in the clan really be inappropriate? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 23:50, January 16, 2012 (UTC))

But we don't know that. We've only been shown a few Uchiha, and each has used no more than two Fire Release techniques so we don't know. Anyway, his mastery over Fire Release is duly noted and I don't see much point in putting something in like that which isn't really known. Skitts (talk) 00:14, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

I meant to say it is the largest known technique in the Uchiha clan. And as far as we have seen, it is the most sizeable and powerful. Would it really hurt to note he is the most proficient in the clan that is known until we see otherwise? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 00:34, January 17, 2012 (UTC))

Only Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique is greatly affiliated with the Uchiha clan and even it is used outside of it. Skitts (talk) 01:20, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

True, but nobody but Madara has been shown to know his technique, so until someone else in Uchiha clan or someone outside it does show they have it, its strickly Uchiha affiliated. As far as any Fire Release technique known to be used by the Uchiha goes, Madara's is the most powerful and dangerous. Would it hurt to acknowledge he is the most proficient known Fire Release user in the Uchiha clan until we know otherwise? It took four Water Encampment wall technique users combined to extinguish Madara's attack after all. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 02:13, January 17, 2012 (UTC))

What about Amaterasu, the strongest Fire Release technique? :P akz!  02:45, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Not because a person is the only one to use a technique means it's affiliated with them or their clan. Especially then it's something like simple nature manipulation. As far as any fire technique... they've only been linked to the Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique and from all indications they were/all are proficient with Fire Release. In the same manner that you argue that he's the greatest I could say no one has used a more powerful Great Fireball than Obito or created as large a one as Fugaku. It's an unnecessary assumption with no evidence and we're supposed to be impartial. Also, as far as the most powerful fire release technique affiliated with the Uchiha, it's Amaterasu and Madara hasn't even used that.--Cerez365™ 02:46, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

I didn't mean period, I mean't just standard ninjutsu, not techniques only Mangekyo users can have. In that way, anyone with a Mangekyo can equal him. In terms of nature transformation, nobody, Uchiha or otherwise, has used a Fire Release technique as strong as his. And I said others may have it, but that Madara is the only one who has been seen using his technique, so we can't just assume there are others who can, we must see them to confirm it. Who else in the Uchiha clan uses a Fire Release technique as strong as Madara's? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 03:28, January 17, 2012 (UTC))

Considering we've seen him use two Fire Release techniques (one of which was common) you're statement is premature and hyping him up. For starters, part of the reason that his Fire Release: Great Fire Majestic Annihilation required several attacks to neutralize it was because of its "huge reach". Also, you're statement is incorrect as Kakuzu would be considered the "greatest Fire Release user" because of the far greater reach of his Fire Release: Intelligent Hard Work if we went by your logic. Here's what I'm basically thinking you're trying to say: Because Madara used a strong Fire Release technique that required several ninja to counter primarily because of its reach that he's the greatest user of that nature in his clan and elsewhere. This=/=logic. Skitts (talk) 03:47, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Leave Kakuzu out of this. He is irrelevant. I was talking about Madara being the best in his clan all this time, not the best in the series. And also the power of Madara's technique is intense since absolutely all the water those four used was evaporated in putting it out. I'm asking that since nobody else in the Uchiha clan has been shown to use that aatack, and since the attack is as intense as it is, would it be inappropriate to say Madara is the most proficient Fire Release user in the UCHIHA CLAN, not in the whole series, until someone else in the clan is shown to use Fire Release: Great Fire Majestic Annihilation. Fugaku's Great Fireball technique was not as big as Madara's Majestic Annihilation, so all in all Fugaku was not as proficient as Madara from what has been seen of him. Nobody in the clan has been due to the lesser scales of the techniques the few we've seen were able to do. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 13:46, January 17, 2012 (UTC))

"In terms of nature transformation, nobody, Uchiha or otherwise, has used a Fire Release technique as strong as his." That's why I brought up Kakuzu. And again, the fact that we've seen the Uchiha affiliated with one Fire Release technique makes this premature. First of all, this is your opinion based off a single attack. Secondly, we don't state things like this unless they were confirmed in the series. For example, if we went by the logic you're using, we'd say that Kisame is the greatest Water manipulator in the series because of the scale of his Water Release: Great Exploding Water Colliding Wave, despite the fact that Tobirama was already stated to be it. Skitts (talk) 15:26, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

I didn't use the right words before, but what I was thinking was that he was the greatest of the Uchiha. Of all the Uchiha clan, Madara is known as the strongest. Given we know Tobi is a liar, Madara is the strongest. I didn't mean to not correct myself. No Uchiha clan member has used a Fire Release technique as strong or huge as Madara. Other people may have Majestic Fire Annihilation, but until its shown, we can only say Madara does for a fact. We can't go by what we don't see. And I said before that all the water in the Water Encampment wall techniques used to counter Madara were evaporated and that every Uchiha we've seen use a fire Release technique was not as proficient as Madara. Would it hurt to note him as the most proficient Fire Release user in the Uchiha clan until other members are shown to be even more. Madara is the strongest Uchiha afterall. He probably didn't become known as that just for his mastery of genetic inheritance. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 15:56, January 17, 2012 (UTC))

Like I said in my last post, as far as I know, we don't list things to the effect of "(Insert ninja here) is the greatest at (some skill)" unless it was directly stated somewhere. Skitts (talk) 16:02, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but Tobirama was stated to be the best in the whole series and was because of his abilities. I'm not saying Madara's the best in the whole series at the Fire Release, just the best within the Uchiha clan. Kakuzu would be the best series wise. And Madara has been stated to be the best within the Uchiha clan because he is called the strongest Uchiha. I really don't think he would have been called that for just mastery over genetic inheritance. He is probably the best at everything the Uchiha do. Because Madara is called the strongest Uchiha, would it hurt to note him as the most proficient at the Fire Release among the Uchiha since his technique has not been shown to be held by anyone in the clan but him? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 16:34, January 17, 2012 (UTC))

Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage and a master in all areas of shinobi combat, but that didn't make him better at everything than all past Hokage. Skitts (talk) 17:00, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Hiruzen was old and his chakra reserves were not what they were in his prime. In his prime, Hiruzen was the strongest of the five Kage. If he had been in his prime when Orochimaru made his attempt on the Leaf, he probably would have been much more formidable against Hashirama and Tobirama. Madara on the other hand still looks like he did in his prime and didn't seem to age after his battle with Hashirama. Maybe because of having his cells like Tobi. And Madara is even more powerful now than he was before his battle with Hashirama, and he is known as the strongest Uchiha. Since we can't assume there are techniques out there stronger than Majestic Annihilation because they haven't been seen or confirmed through speech, would it hurt to note Madara as the most proficient Uchiha clan member at the Fire Release? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 17:15, January 17, 2012 (UTC))

You misunderstood my point in bringing up Hiruzen. I was saying that even though he was the strongest of the Hokage, previous Hokage were better than him in some ways. Tobirama with Water Release, for example. Skitts (talk) 17:28, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

You have a point. But it should be noted that Hiruzen wasn't even shown to use Water Release. So yes, Tobirama is better than him at it. If Hiruzen had used it, who knows what it would have been like? And I acknowledge Kakuzu was better than Madara at Fire Release. However, of all the Fire Release techniques the Uchiha clan have been shown or confirmed to have used, Madara's is the strongest. Because Madara is the strongest Uchiha, would it hurt to note Madara as the most proficient Fire Release user among the Uchiha clan until someone else in the clan is shown or mentioned to have been able to use Majestic Annihilation better than him or to use an even more powerful technique? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 18:01, January 17, 2012 (UTC))

How did this move from a discussion on Madara and Katon to Water Release, Hiruzen and Tobirama? Both seem pointless to me especially when there's no evidence to support the fact that Madara is recognised as the most powerful Fire Release user in or outside of the Uchiha.--Cerez365™ 18:26, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I was trying to point out that being noted to be the strongest does not make one the best in every way. Skitts (talk) 18:40, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Your right, it doesn't. I'm sorry I seemed disrespectful. I didn't mean to. But even though being the strongest doesn't mean he is the best in every way, Madara is the only Uchiha who has used Fire Majestic Annihilation. Would it hurt to note he is the most proficient KNOWN user of the Fire Release in terms of Nature Transformation among the Uchiha clan until it is shown otherwise? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 19:04, January 17, 2012 (UTC))

@Cerez365 I didn't mean Madara is the best in the series, just in the Uchiha clan. I have corrected myself on that. And the fact that Fire Majestic Annihilation is larger and stronger than any Fire Release technique in terms of Nature Transformation that any Uchiha has been known or shown to have used is proof that Madara is the most proficient in Fire Release in that sense in his clan. Would it hurt to note he is until it is shown otherwise? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 20:14, January 17, 2012 (UTC))

But we haven't seen all the members or even a good enough percentage of them use fire release techniques for us to make that assumption... It is larger true, but I don't see why it's stronger. Just because it took more than one Suiton user to douse it does not necessarily mean that it was more powerful; that can be chalked up to the width of the technique. Using that train of thought I could easily say that Fugaku Uchiha's Fire Release: Great Fireball Technique would have probably require more that one Suiton user to douse and that Obito used the most powerful Katon since it actually incinerated bamboo. Speculations lke these can be made ll the time, that's why for things like this, sources are required. Something along the lines of someone actually saying that he is the most powerful fire release user would be nice.--Cerez365™ 20:23, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Why Madara's is probably stronger is because every drop of water from the four Water Encampment Wall techniques used to douse it was evaporated. Thats how hot the fire was. If Madara's attack hadn't been doused in time, it would have swallowed up and incinerated 16 shinobi. And yes we haven't seen enough for an assumption like that to be made, so I'm asking would it be inappropriate to note him as the most proficient KNOWN or SHOWN member until we see otherwise? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 20:46, January 17, 2012 (UTC))

As has been said several times, we never list things like that unless it was stated in the series or from an official source. Skitts (talk) 20:48, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Yes it would be, since he's used one technique — one time which can be argued to be the biggest/strongest technique seen. I know you're apparently a fanboy of Madara's but unless they explicitly say "Madara is the greatest katon user" something like that has no substantiated claim.--Cerez365™ 20:52, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

@Skitts and @Cerez365 So even if it is shown, unless its stated in the series or an official source, it doesn't count? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 21:03, January 17, 2012 (UTC))

Though, I don't see how his use of one technique, which wasn't even that impressive in my opinion, shows that he is the most proficient user of fire release. We also tend not to do say such temporary things such as "of all the known..." especially when there's no evidence to support the statement.--Cerez365™ 21:08, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

The way you have it written is like I'm saying he is the best in the series. I'm saying he is the best in the Uchiha clan at the Fire Release. And there is physical evidence that his is very strong. Where the technique is shown to have been evaporated, there is no water whatsoever on ground. You have to look on the whole page to see that, but there isn't. That is physical evidence backing up what I said because the fire was so hot, all the water was turned into steam. And since the Uchiha clan is almost totally extinct, would it hurt to use that temporary statement in this one case, since there probably would be too many more inquires about about the Uchiha? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 21:25, January 17, 2012 (UTC))
 * And I'm saying that assumption cannot be made through the use of one technique. You keep talking about the water evaporating as if it should have? That's what normally happens when water is heated... When has any other Uchiha's fire release (or even used the same technique) been contested with a water release for the assumption that his is stronger been drawn? Even if they are extinct, if Kishimoto had intended Madara to be noted as the greatest fire release user, he would have had someone say it in the same manner that he had us know that Tokuma has the strongest Byakugan in the Hyūga clan. It's still possible that somewhere along the line he'll tell us that either some unknown or even one of the known, deceased members was the most proficient fire release user. Whether or not he is the best known user even at this point can be easily debated.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 21:37, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

I didn't mean it like the water should have evaporated, but like it surprised me that every individual drop of water from four, not just one, but four Water Encampment Wall techniques together was totally evaporated. I was. The fact that there was no water left after that, even though Madara's attack is huge, is impressive don't you think? Is that physical evidence unusable? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 21:57, January 17, 2012 (UTC))
 * Impressive, but still not enough to say that he is the most proficient in Katon techniques of the Uchiha. Like I said before stuff like that won't be used here unless you can site stated evidence.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 22:02, January 17, 2012 (UTC)

Very well, then. We'll leave this subject be until there is some. In regards to my being a big fan of Madara, yes I am. He is one of my favorite characters in the series along with Naruto, Sasuke, and Gaara. Don't ask me why. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 00:17, January 18, 2012 (UTC))

How was he "improved"
How did Kabuto "improve" Madara? Also what's underneath Madara's shirt?
 * We don't know.
 * We don't know. It might be Hashirama's face, like on Danzo's arm. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 06:52, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

All we know is that whatever is on his torso cause Madara to say that Kabuto had prepared well. Skitts (talk) 06:56, January 19, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it's Hashirama's face on Madara's chest for at least two reasons.
 * 1) he worked with Orochimaru to get Hashirama's cells in his right arm and I can't help but think it was a "failure" of some sort. And
 * 2) Madara would NOT be happy about his mosted hated rival's face on his chest.

I believe it is perhaps a scar or something?(173.171.77.245 (talk) 03:47, February 5, 2012 (UTC))


 * 1) Danzō Shimura not Madara?
 * 2) You'd be surprised at the compromises people will make to attain what they want.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 10:36, February 5, 2012 (UTC)

LOL! Yeah, Danzo XD forgot to put his name in, haha. And true, but I really don't think Madara would want that man's face on him. It's just a theory and my opinion...and praying to God it isn't that man's face XD (173.171.77.245 (talk) 10:29, February 6, 2012 (UTC))

it could be his physical capabilities were improved, think about it if he knew Nagato then he'd at least have been as old as the third Hokage was, and no matter how skilled he was he countered A's speed and strength, which personally i dont think a normal human body-even an Edo tensei body, could do on it's own 10:55, february 6, 2012

I don't think anyone would want another face growing out of any part of their body fixing to take over their entire being at any time. What exactly was improved is still unknown especially since we don't have any prior incidences to compare it to except for the events that created an entire valley. Also, Susanoo is an ultimate defence, we've seen that it takes quite a bit to destroy it.--Cerez365™ 12:17, February 6, 2012 (UTC)

It has been confirmed, Madara has Hashirama's face on his chest. That's why i added Izanagi to the jutsu list. --ShenLong Kazama (talk) 12:56, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Madara's durability
It has been said that we know nothing of Madara's normal durability, but we have seen that he was able to survive the grave injuries he sustained during his final battle with Hashirama, one of which was being stabbed through his vital organs by a sword. We see this in Tobi's flashback as he said everyone thought Madara had died, even Hashirama. Would putting some recognition of this durability and vitality in his abilities section be wrong? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 18:54, January 21, 2012 (UTC))

We don't know how he survived, so stating it's becase he is durable is not proven. --Elveonora (talk) 14:18, January 22, 2012 (UTC)

Elements
Madara has awakened Rinnegan, so that means that he can manipulate every chakra's nature, that's what they said about Rinnegan (also he used Preta Path, so he knows very well like it works his power), so I thought that was right correct his chakra natures.
 * For the however much time, the Rinnegan allows you to master all FIVE BASIC NATURES whether or not the person wants to do that is up to them.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 16:13, January 25, 2012 (UTC)

Space Time Teleportation
Minato seemed to implied that Madara can do Space Time Teleportation in Chapter 501 (or 500, I can not remember the chapter number, should we put it in the article?--207.157.117.2 (talk) 15:56, January 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * He was talking about Tobi.--Deva 27 16:09, January 26, 2012 (UTC)

Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi
Why are we listing Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi under the list of Madara's abilities? We've never seen him use either, or hint that he has either. I don't recall it being a rule anywhere in the manga that Mangekyou Sharingan always comes with those abilities (I'd assume it doesn't, given that Kakashi and Shisui had differant abilities--and since Sasuke's genjutsu is confirmed to not be Tsukuyomi by Danzou).

As far as we know, even Sasuke only has Amaterasu because Itachi gave it to him. We haven't seen anything to confirm that its an actual inborn ability.

Obviously Susanowo seems to be a common ability to everyone, but until we actually see Madara shooting black fire or making people hallucinate 72 hours of torture, he shouldn't be listed with those powers.
 * Read /Archive 1, /Archive 1 and /Archive 1. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:20, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Wood Release
Apparently the Mokuton powers are not a result of him taking Hashirama's flesh but Orochimaru's own "enhancement" --Elveonora (talk) 15:13, February 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Edo Tensei works differently regarding in what form it revives the person. It's possible that Madara lost his implanted Senju's cells after resurrection, that's why Kabuto's (not Orochimaru's, that's bad translation, Orochimaru experimented with Danzo) enhancement became needed.Faust-RSI (talk) 16:17, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

And I doubt that even he could simply use Wood Release like that if he had never had prior to his resurrection. Skitts (talk) 16:43, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

What Kabuto is doing is based on Orochimaru's research. This chapter has proved that it's Kabuto's doing ... he even stated before that he want to try it out. Stating he had Wood Release and he lost it and Kabuto gave it again to him after resurrection is more speculative than what the manga actually shows. --Elveonora (talk) 22:52, February 22, 2012 (UTC)

Upgrade
wait, didn't madara get wood release on his own, by taking some of the first hokage's DNA during the battle at the valley of the end, then why does it say I'ts the result of Kabuto's experimenting?--76.92.243.71 (talk) 03:59, February 23, 2012 (UTC)

Where does it say that? It's mentioned that Kabuto enhanced Madara, not that he gave Madara wood release.--TricksterKing (talk) 04:41, February 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * When Kabuto says he improved Madara beyond his prime, Madara looks down his shirt and sees the Hashirama face. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 05:24, February 23, 2012 (UTC)

*His* Assistant
I know this has been brought up before and it's probably not considered that important of information but I'm honestly shocked it hasn't been changed yet, there is really a 0% chance Kabuto was talking about Tobi, and I'll easily explain why, but firstly I'd like to comment on what someone said about it being unlikely that it was Orochimaru simply because he hasn't had a "role" in the manga for a while. Firstly, he gets brought up a lot more than you probably remember, especially lately, but most importantly in this last chapter Kabuto says that Orochimaru was the one who modded Madara, meaning they had him in their possession at the very least since before Orochimaru was sealed and who knows how possibly long before that they may have had him. Orochimaru having had access to Madara for a while before he was revealed is also supplemented by the fact that Orochimaru knew of their Moon's Eye plan/10 tails revival, when only 3 people (Tobi, Zetsu, and Madara) were in on it. Obviously neither Tobi nor Zetsu told him and were shocked that he had discovered their plan, how else would he have had access to that information if not Madara. But anyway, back to how it can't possibly be Tobi: 1. Tobi and Kabuto HATE eachother. Their entirely relationship is based on threats, mistrust, and deception. 2. Kabuto has done nothing but badmouth Tobi to Madara (as in when he said he thinks Tobi will betray Madara's plan). 3. Kabuto always has been and always will be Orochimaru's biggest supporter and most loyal assistant/servant, he comments on this pretty often. 4. Lastly, and most importantly (and somehow the one piece of information people just cannot seem to get), what Madara said before Kabuto said the line in question completely negates Tobi as a candidate. Madara said, "This is his doing... for me to be revived like this". That right there COMPLETELY removes Tobi as the 'his/him' in question. Why? Simple, it's been a known fact for a long time now that both Tobi and Madara intended for Madara to be revived via Nagato's Rinne Tensei, NOT Edo Tensei. They've BOTH said it. Why would Madara liken his being revived by a way both he and Tobi unintended as Tobi's doing? It makes ZERO sense. Honestly it's that simple, yet people are STILL arguing about who Kabuto was referring to. It can only logically be Orochimaru, and since the recent information that points to Orochimaru having still been around/unsealed when Madara came into their possession just cements it further. Again, I know this tidbit seems trivial, but really since Orochimaru has been coming up a lot more lately, and specifically in relation to Madara, it's becoming more important of information that could even become extremely important (depending upon what might be on that scroll Suigetsu found, if Orochimaru returns, or any number of other possibilities), so at the very least, if you refuse to change it without Kishimoto having to spell it out word for word, change it to something like:

Kabuto reveals himself as his assistant (possibly referring to Orochimaru or Tobi)

until such a time that Kishimoto plainly says who it is. This ended up going longer than I intended, but I pray that it's enough evidence to support the change, or at the very least, bring about the more neutral change mentioned above if we want to wait until it's plainly stated one way or another by Kishimoto. 174.50.87.31 (talk) 11:07, February 23, 2012 (UTC)