Talk:Sage Transformation

Senninka
Are you guys aware that Jūgo calls whatever he took from Kabuto Senninka and that he also says that "Orochimaru undid Kabuto's Senninka"? "Senninka" is just a term for the transformation a body does when he absorbs natural energy. Seelentau 愛議 23:09, February 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Good morning? I once attempted to explain it to them to no avail, they still smoking the same old Orochimaru DNA weed. The reason why Kabuto looked like that was because he was using Senninka--Elveonora (talk) 23:50, February 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * I have no memory of this dicussion. Do whats needed.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 23:57, February 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * There's not much to be done to tell the truth. It just seems to be wrongly understood that the way Kabuto appeared during the war was a result of him mutating from Orochimaru's DNA while in fact Jugo credited it to Sage Transformation.

It's true Orochimaru's cells were taking over his body, but he seemingly offscreen won that fight and reversed the process. What was happening were literary Orochimaru's cells replacing his own, not mutating him but that obviously didn't finish, otherwise he wouldn't be among the living anymore. His appearance in the war wasn't because of that, but his own consent. Also I believe it's time we finally separate Sage Transformation and Jugo Clan's power to passively absorb natural energy, they aren't the same. The former is an application of their bodies' special ability to transform, natural energy is just a fuel to that.--Elveonora (talk) 00:47, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

Yep. ST is nothing but an other term for Sennin Mode, Jūgo's clan has special bodies, which might or might not be a Kekkei Genkai. How Orochimaru and his Juin are related to it is what I'm gonna work out this weekend. Seelentau 愛議 08:00, February 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wait, does that mean all the body changes one gets from Orochimaru's cursed seals are Senninka? Like the other cursed seal users? Do the changes body transformations Jiraiya and Naruto go through count as Senninka? Urg, a new databook has never felt more necessary than it does now. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 13:56, February 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, what the Juin does to the body is called Juinka. What Naruto and Jiraiya do is Senninka, yes. Seelentau 愛議 13:59, February 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * But isn't what Jūgo goes through, the source of those changes, Senninka, that was only called Juinka in Oro's test subjects? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:27, February 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes. So? Seelentau 愛議 14:44, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

Wouldn't that technically mean that Orochimaru's cursed seals would have to have this listed as a parent? Also, since Jiraiya and Naruto do this through Sage Mode, would SM be a parent to this, or would Jiraiya and Naruto simply be added as users of this? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:10, February 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * I can't say for sure right now. My minions gather all available information for me and I'm trying to work everything out tomorrow. As I understand it now, Senninka = Sennin Mode, Juinka = Senninka through a Juin. Seelentau 愛議 15:41, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

@Seelentau, I don't exactly agree, I smell some confusion here. Allow me to explain the way I understand it:
 * Sage Transformation/Senninka is possible thanks to an enzyme found within Jugo and his clan (the same enzyme used in Curse Marks) which causes a bodily reaction when fueled with natural energy/senjutsu chakra. It refers entirely to the mutations/shapeshifting, so no, it's not synonymous with Sage Mode, it's an almost entirely different thing altogether.
 * Jugo and his clan's bodies also passively absorb natural energy, it's separate from Sage Transformation.
 * Curse Marks are essentially a fuuinjutsu/juinjutsu version of the enzyme which allows mutations/shapeshifting + Orochimaru's Senjutsu chakra which powers it.
 * The only problem I see is if should Jugo be also listed as a user of Sage Mode, because when he uses Sage Transformation/Senninka, he is using senjutsu chakra. The way I see it, the act of balancing the natural energy their bodies constantly absorb results in activation of Sage Transformation/Senninka, so you could say it's a Mutant Sage Mode.
 * Sage Transformation is a parent to Curse Marks, I thought it already was listed? So is Sage Mode.
 * Kinda offtopic, but I find articles such as Body Absorption, Chakra Blast Cannons etc. to be pointless, I think all of his feats should be merged with this article.--Elveonora (talk) 16:50, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

Alright, I think I can explain it:

The source of everything is the Ryūchidō. By training one's own body there, one can attain the same power Jūgō's clan has. Their special body fluids allow them to absorb natural energy. The resulting transformation is called Senninka in Jūgō's village, we know it under the name Sennin Mode. Jūgō even refers to Kabuto's Sennin Mode as Senninka. The transformation caused by the Juin is called Juinka. The Juin itself is a seal with a special enzyme that causes the same Senninka in normal persons. Basically, Senninka, Juinka and Sennin Mode are the same. Senninka is the basic transformation, Juinka is the basic transformation, only caused by a Juin, Sennin Mode is the basic transformation with control over the natural energy. Seelentau 愛議 15:12, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's quite some guess let me tell you. We've never been told that Jugo has ever trained there not that his clan is located in the cave, how did you manage to come to such a bizarre conclusion? Again, the presence of special bodily fluid/enzyme alone doesn't make senninka and sennin modo the same. I agree they are using Sage Mode when using Sage Transformation, but those using Sage Mode aren't necessarily using Sage Transformation. The mere fact Jugo and his clan have limitless transformation and barely resemble any normal animals is big of a difference.--Elveonora (talk) 15:47, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * I never said that. I said that Jūgō's clan has a power which others can gain by training at the Ryūchidō. Jūgō calls Kabuto's Sennin Mode Senninka. Sennin Mode = Senninka, but Senninka =/= Sennin Mode. Seelentau 愛議 15:58, February 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * I think I get what you're saying. So, let me try to explain it in a way that might be less confusing. Correct me if I'm wrong? Sage Mode is, as we know, the balance of natural energy with normal chakra. In order to do this, a shinobi must train themselves to absorb natural energy. With that in mind, Jūgo's clan has a body that naturally does this for them. They naturally absorb natural energy without the training required, but, as a result, cannot balance it with their chakra, which results in berserk transformations. Hence, Sage Mode is a type of Sage Transformation, albeit a more complete one, but a Sage Transformation (as demonstrated by Jūgo and his clanmates) isn't necessarily Sage Mode. Now then, a Curse Seal Transformation artificially does what Jūgo's clan does: it allows the user to tap on and absorb natural energy without the training necessary to balance it with normal chakra, resulting in the dangerous, berserk actions that those under the Curse Seal often experience, along with the increase in power that Sage chakra grants.


 * That said, Seel is right. Jūgo does refer to Kabuto's form as Sage Transformation (Senninka), which suggests that the two are one in the same. The fact that Kabuto notes that Orochimaru discovered that the source of Jūgo's clan power is Ryūchi Cave lends credit to this, since we know that Jūgo's clan power comes from their genetics. The only logical supposition, then, is that Orochimaru realized that Sage Mode was simply a more balanced version of Sage Transformation and sought out the Ryūchi Cave to train to learn that ability. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 16:54, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Seelentau 愛議 17:18, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, then our understanding of it is in complete reverse, to me obviously Sage Mode =/= Sage Transformation, but Sage Transformation = Sage Mode. The enzyme itself wasn't ever stated to be what makes their bodies absorb natural energy but rather what allows them to transform. Same for Curse Mark, it doesn't absorb natural energy either, only changes the users' bodies, the Senjutsu chakra comes directly from Orochimaru. I think you miss the context, using Sage Transformation automatically means using Sage Mode, but Kabuto doesn't have to use Sage Transformation to use Sage Mode, he actually mastered that from White Snake Sage. What Jugo was referring to as Sage Transformation were Kabuto's snake characteristics. The evidence of that is that cancelling Sage Transformation made him turn human again, hence he was using it all the time even before actually activating true Sage Mode.--Elveonora (talk) 14:00, February 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * Kabuto's snake-like features were from Orochimaru's DNA. That was stated way back when we saw him for the first time after Orochimaru kicked the can, where only his face was transforming. Literally, the exact quote was "Orochimaru's remains are taking over his body." He even noted that it was Orochimaru that was causing the transformation, not an outside source. And it was the removal of Orochimaru's Sage chakra that caused him to revert forms, not anything to do with Jūgo's clan. So the supposition that you're suggesting, that somehow Kabuto's transformation is due to Jugō's clan's Sage Transformation is absolutely unfounded. Jūgo does call it Sage Transformation, but that's precisely mine and Seel's point. Sage Mode = Sennin Transformation in Jūgo's mind, but Sage Transformation =/= Sage Mode, because members of Jūgo's clan cannot balance natural energy that they are absorbing with their chakra, which is what Sage Mode is. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:23, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Kabuto got Orochimaru's Senjutsu chakra after taking hold of Anko, he long had snake features by the time, so taking away what was added later didn't have any effect on what had been there. Cancelling sage transformation didn't just take away his added horns but all the said snake features, hence they weren't from DNA but the transformation.--Elveonora (talk) 18:30, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Are you guys aware that it was never said that Kabuto got Oro's Senjutsu chakra? Seelentau 愛議 19:07, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Positive it was. Even if it is a mistranslation, it doesn't change the topic at all, it's about what sage transformation is or isn't, so nice avoiding--Elveonora (talk) 19:12, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not avoiding anything, just wanting to clear that up. What was your point again? I hate it when discussions go here and there, I tend to lose the overview way too quickly. Seelentau 愛議 19:20, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Just rewatched shippuden episode 341 on Crunchyroll, he indeed said Curse Marks contain his own Senjutsu chakra, so either you or official anime translation is wrong--Elveonora (talk) 19:30, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, he says that. What does it matter, though? He still only took chakra from Kabuto, Senjutsu chakra wasn't mentioned. Seelentau 愛議 19:45, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Orochimaru said Curse Marks contain his Senjutsu chakra. Kabuto got Orochimaru's chakra from Curse Mark, what's hard to comprehend here? I don't really get anymore what you are trying with this topic, at first I thought we are on the same page, not so sure anymore, can you again please explain your intent? With all due respect, I think you've missed the mark with this one--Elveonora (talk) 19:58, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, Juin contain his Senjutsu chakra, but why do you think Kabuto used Orochimaru's chakra in any way for his Sennin Mode? I don't get what you're saying. Kabuto used Oro's chakra in Anko's Juin for Edo Tensei, didn't he? We don't know if Orochimaru's Senjutsu chakra is connected to the Juinka, there was never any mentioning of a connection. I'm trying to explain/sum up the information given by the manga, the related articles need to be rewritten according to the explanation. I don't really understand how you can say I'm wrong when I'm just saying what the manga said. Seelentau 愛議 20:32, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * I never said he used the chakra for anything, you misunderstood me likely. This is what you wrote, quoting you: "Are you guys aware that it was never said that Kabuto got Oro's Senjutsu chakra?" then you wrote: "He still only took chakra from Kabuto, Senjutsu chakra wasn't mentioned" since Curse Marks contain Orochimaru's Senjutsu chakra, Kabuto got Orochimaru's chakra from a Curse Mark and Orochimaru absorbed said chakra from Kabuto, therefore he did absorb back his own Senjutsu chakra, that's why I'm not sure where you were going with that. For "articles need to be rewritten" I wouldn't be so hasty, I unfortunately indeed disagree with your new explanation, I find it almost completely flawed. I think you misinterpreted what is written in the manga about this--Elveonora (talk) 21:04, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah, iSee. Well, you're wrong here: "Orochimaru absorbed said chakra from Kabuto". While he did absorb chakra, it was not stated to be Senjutsu chakra.
 * Furthermore, "Kabuto got Orochimaru's chakra from a Curse Mark" is what I don't understand. Where was that mentioned and for what did he use that chakra? Seelentau 愛議 21:17, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

All Curse Marks contain Orochimaru's Senjutsu chakra according to himself. Kabuto literary abducted Anko for the sole purpose of sucking Orochimaru's chakra from her Curse Mark, did you forget? He did that to strengthen Edo Tensei. Why do you suggest there's both Senjutsu and non-Senjutsu chakras of Orochimaru in the marks?--Elveonora (talk) 21:26, February 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * For the record, 520 and 522 are the Chapters in which Kabuto states his intention, and follows through with it, respectively. It is in 593 that Orochimaru claims to have poured his Senjutsu chakra into the Juuin. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 21:29, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * I guess this confirms that the Juin has both Orochimaru's normal and Senjutsu chakra, huh? And again, Jūgō only said Orochimaru took his own chakra from Kabuto, it was never mentioned that Kabuto had Oro's Senjutsu chakra inside his body. Seelentau 愛議 09:24, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Nope, it doesn't, only that the latter is there but for some reason, you assume there to be non-senjutsu chakra as well just because Jugo didn't say the word "senjutsu" only that Oro was "taking back his own chakra" ignoring that Kabuto got Orochimaru's chakra from a Curse Mark in the first place which were noted to have his Senjutsu chakra. People refer to Naruto handing Kurama's chakra as it being "Naruto's chakra" so by the same logic it means he didn't handle biju chakra at all. For your other point, I believe it was that Sage Transformation and Sage Mode are one and the same, with which I disagree, like completely or even beyond that. I'm not putting down what you say, far from that since you know, I respect you and am interested to hear you out and all. But please, tell me step by step again why do you think what you think, whatever that is, chapter/databook quotes to back up said explanations wouldn't hurt either. I'm gonna once again explain my understanding of it, which I'm almost positive is the correct one:


 * Sage Transformation refers only to the act of physical transformation/mutation/shapeshifting (wings, horns, axes, jets, anything and shi*) unique to Jugo and his clan and by extension artificially Curse Mark users too, what when they do use, takes senjutsu chakra to activate it so using Sage Transformation also means using Sage Mode for them, but for normal Sage Mode users it doesn't mean using Sage Transformation. So in short:
 * 1) Jugo and his clan's bodies passively absorb natural energy, that's how they get senjutsu chakra. This is very likely to be a Kekkei Genkai and is completely separate from the enzyme/sage transformation. If they are Sages or not is another topic I guess.
 * 2) They also have the said special enzyme which when they use the senjutsu chakra makes them transform, same for Curse Mark users. So you could say Sage Transformation is a side-effect of using Sage Mode due to the enzyme.
 * 3) The only difference between Jugo (or his clan's other member) and a Curse Mark user is that the former have senjutsu chakra their own because their bodies absorb natural energy, while a Curse Mark user's body doesn't absorb natural energy due to not having their Kekkei Genkai but he/she gets Senjutsu chakra from Orochimaru. Another small difference is that Oro modified the enzyme to only 1 form per a CM user for some reason, unlike the seemingly numerous/infinite forms the original allows, likely to make it more stable.--Elveonora (talk) 14:01, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

I'm in agreement with Seelentau on this one. I also think its supported by the fact that unbalanced natural energy in toad sage mode turns users into frogs. Not to mention Jiraiya has shown control in what parts of his body turns frog-like, much like Jugo has control over his own body. This, combined with the fact that all of Orochimaru's cursed seal transformations look as if they have traits taken from animals, supports the idea that there may be multiple types of natural energy. The only instance of natural energy use that doesn't appear animal like is Jugo's usage, but he innately can absorb natural energy. So he can transform into anything. @Elveonora, I don't think you should take what was said so strictly. It says the enzyme causes the transformation, but it doesn't say how. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 21:47, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, let's try again:

When a human draws natural energy into his body and mixes his with his own Chakra, he creates Senjutsu Chakra and enters a stadium called "Sennin Mode". It doesn't matter if it was intended or not and it doesn't matter if the Chakra's balanced or if he turns to stone. The Sennin Mode is the stadium of having Senjutsu Chakra inside one's own body. (It might be different for animals, but that's not important) One can learn to enter that stadium at two places: the Myōbokuzan and the Ryūchidō. For unknown reasons, the looks of both Sennin Modes differ.

Now there's a village where a clan lives. This clan has special bodies that draw in natural energy unintentionally, resulting in uncontrollable rages. They enter the same Sennin Mode as any other human being, but because of their special bodies, they don't turn to stone. They call it Sennin Transformation in that village.

Orochimaru found out that the source of the special bodies is the Ryūchidō (what exactly that means is not clear yet). He created an enzyme from Jūgo's special body (fluids) and gives it to normal people using a Juin. When they draw in natural energy, their transformation is called Curse Seal Transformation.

Orochimaru also is able to create Senjutsu Chakra and he inserted it into the Juin, but I don't get how that's related to the topic. I also probably forgot some stuff, it's a difficult topic. I translated most of the relevant stuff here, by the way. Seelentau 愛議 22:21, February 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Weird, once you state it in a way I disagree with and then the way I also get it. Except again, Sage Transformation isn't just a different term/synonym for Sage Mode, their special bodies are required for that. Naruto, Jiraiya or anyone without the enzyme won't grow horns, wings, tails, blades and shi* as they wish, only toad features to our knowledge. That appears to be the major point we disagree at, you take what he said too literary. Yes, I agree that Sage Transformation = Sage Mode, BUT with the enzyme.

@Mangekyou, animal traits due to unbalance of natural energy in ordinary sage mode users are unrelated to the mutations of sage transformation.--Elveonora (talk) 23:10, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

So can you agree with this: We have a "natural energy modus", which can be reached through three different methods. The first being the training method (Sennin Mode), second being the special body (Sennin Transformation) and third being the seal (Juin Transformation)? They all work a little bit differently, but ultimately end up being the same "status of having natural energy in the body"? Seelentau 愛議 00:10, February 19, 2014 (UTC)