User talk:Minamoto15

Re: About the latest trailer
Yeah, it's more canon that The Last btw, because Kishi is involved in this movie more that the previous film, he writes the scripts also. — Shakhmoot  (Talk) 00:02, June 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * I think Tau-senpai gave you the answer that I wanted to follow seems :) — Shakhmoot Nadeshiko Village Symbol.svg (Talk) 14:21, June 20, 2015 (UTC)

Re:Capitalization
I believe there was some discussion about that and it ended that not capitalising the word would be more proper. Unfortunately, I don't remember where exactly, so you can try to ask someone more involved with the wiki.--LeafShinobi (talk) 14:25, June 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * "Clan" is not a proper noun.
 * More. ~SnapperTo 16:01, June 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * Clan, however, should be capped in the article lead and the infobox, for obvious reasons. Other than those two places, decapping should be okay. --Sajuuk Special:Contributions/SuperSajuuk 16:36, June 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * "Clan" by itself isn't a proper noun, correct, but when placed next to the actual clan name, it becomes a proper noun and therefore should be capitalized.--Mina [[Image:Hatake Symbol.svg|20px]] talk 17:34, June 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * Snapper, I found that answer as well. However, we're not following the Chicago Manual of Style. "Uchiha Clan", "Uzumaki Clan" etc are all proper nouns as a whole. The word clan on its own isn't a proper noun, but as Mina said, used with the clan name, it becomes one. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:38, June 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * Why though? Clan/family/tribe is not capitalized in most real world uses, why would a fictional use be any different? ~SnapperTo 17:57, June 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * It just is. You have to take it case by case depending on what the sentence is. Proper nouns are nouns in reference to actual/unique entities. If you were to say "the clan did so & so", then yeah of course you wouldn't capitalize it, because..."what clan?" What exactly are you referencing? But if placed next to an actual name "Uchiha", "Senju", you're actually being specific. We correctly aren't decapping technique names, so this isn't any different. In the case we're talking about, "Clan" is part of said "unique entity" hence should be capitalized.--Mina [[Image:Hatake Symbol.svg|20px]] talk 18:03, June 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * The clan's name isn't "Senju" clan, the clan's name is "Senju Clan". The "Clan" is part of the actual name. • Seelentau 愛 議 18:05, June 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * Is that some nuance in how the Japanese is presented? Because that doesn't makes sense, English-wise. "Uchiha Clan Downfall" is capitalized because that's a name of a specific event. In simple "Uchiha clan", "clan" should not be an indication of what they're called, it's an indication of what they are. See Japanese clans and wikipedia:Category:Political families of the United States for standard treatment.
 * Nonstandard treatments exist in the case of royal families or many Native American tribes; the former are capitalized because they're generally a title or sufficiently singular to warrant capitalization, the latter are capitalized because they are historically individual from each other and modernly granted autonomy from other states and authorities. Naruto clans don't seem similar enough to either of these types of cases.
 * ~SnapperTo 18:30, June 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * "Uchiha" is name of an actual clan, it's unique and is easily distinguishable from all the other clans presented to us throughout the series. If you're going to include the word clan next to the actual name, you HAVE to capitalize it because it's grammatically correct. It's part of the name. Either you state it as "the Uchiha", or as "the Uchiha Clan". Depending on how you apply the word, nouns can be common or proper. In this case, it's proper. As you yourself stated, "the latter are capitalized because they are historically individual from each other and modernly granted autonomy from other states and authorities". Seems to meet the criteria to me.--Mina [[Image:Hatake Symbol.svg|20px]] talk 18:46, June 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * I've just given several examples of clan/family/whaevs NOT being capitalized in common usage. Capitalization of "clan" is not automatically grammatically correct without some further justification to do so. ~SnapperTo 18:48, June 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * Actually it IS automatically grammatically correct regardless of what justification you want to accept as truth or not. Grammar is what it is and in this case, decapping the word "clan" when placed next the name of an unique entity is grammatically "incorrect".--Mina [[Image:Hatake Symbol.svg|20px]] talk 18:53, June 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * I feel as though you're consciously ignoring the examples I've provided. If "clan" and similar words were to always be capitalized, they'd always be capitalized, not only in special cases like I keep citing. Style guidelines would not have recommendations about when to capitalize and when not to if it were a constant, inarguable rule. Royal families would not be given special treatment because it would, instead, be normal treatment.
 * Common usage largely disagrees with what you're saying. If you're going to disagree with common usage, just simply say so. ~SnapperTo 19:43, June 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * You're linking to another wikia page...which isn't an official source of anything. You're clearly only doing so because it corresponds with your own sensibilities, which in essence doesn't matter, sorry to say. Common usage doesn't equate to correct usage, and the correct usage is to capitalize nouns associated with unique entites. Period.
 * --Mina [[Image:Hatake Symbol.svg|20px]] talk 20:04, June 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm providing actual evidence in support of what I'm saying. Your defense has been a combination of, "Other people are wrong," and, "I disagree." Rather than continually telling me what a proper noun is, please provide an actual comparable example of "clan" being capitalized in common usage. ~SnapperTo 21:56, June 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter what the common usage is. What matters is the correct usage. I've already explained what a proper noun is, and you apparently know what a proper noun is, so there's nothing more to discuss really, but here you go. I'll do it your way. If you can't grasp it after this, then I don't know what to tell you. http://wiki.uqm.stack.nl/Ultronomicon:Manual_of_Style#Clan --Mina [[Image:Hatake Symbol.svg|20px]] talk  22:37, June 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * English, as you may be aware, is a complicated language that lacks established rules for every possible scenario. For that reason, what is correct is frequently difficult to determine and, in the absence of clear guidance, what the common usage is tends to be the most reliable. You should therefore not dismiss "common usage" so readily since it tends to win in the end.
 * I saw your example in my own searches and promptly ignored it. It's what a wiki about some video game series from the 90s does, which is far from authoritative. I am asking for actual, competent, real world examples. Like these:
 * Forbes using Rockefeller family
 * The NYT using Kennedy family
 * Bush 41's library's website using Bush family
 * Granted these are for "family", but the usage is the same and I'm not familiar with any real world clans I could look up.
 * Try again, please. ~SnapperTo 23:12, June 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * You ask for one example. I give you two examples. You admit that you promptly ignore them both in favor of your own examples that support your logic. You're interested in common usage. I'm interested in correct usage. I'm fighting a losing battle, since no matter what I present you with you'll just go and do your own thing with your position. As such, I won't waste my breath on you any longer and simply act accordingly. We're done here.--Mina [[Image:Hatake Symbol.svg|20px]] talk 23:48, June 22, 2015 (UTC)
 * You gave one example and it has no repute to speak of. So you'll forgive me for not being swayed by what niches of the internet do. I mean, I also found a video game wiki that supports my position, but I didn't share it because I recognize that some sources are better than others.
 * And if we're playing a sheer numbers game: I've given five examples to your supposed two. Who does that make the more obstinate?
 * The reason I'm not placing much stock in your frequent explanation of proper nouns is because clan/family is not treated as a proper noun by most sources. So it's interesting and everything that proper nouns are capitalized, but the average family group is not a proper noun, excepting the special cases I mentioned earlier. You can spit at the other sources as being wrong, but 99% tends to beat 1%, especially when that 1% isn't making much of an argument in its favor.
 * If you're not interested in continuing the discussion, then the wiki's convention is that things be changed back to as they were, which in this case would be not-capitalized. ~SnapperTo 00:07, June 23, 2015 (UTC)