Talk:Rinnegan

Distinguish shadow clone from the original?
What the heck? Where was this ability shown?Undominanthybrid (talk) 18:06, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

there's a reference --Elveonora (talk) 18:21, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

Though it's not true. Nagato was fooled many times by shadow clones during Konoha's invasion, and he had 6 bodies seeing the action. Madara's distinction is his own merit, unless it's made clear that Nagato being unable to do so was due to his own ineptitude with the Rinnegan. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:22, October 11, 2012 (UTC)

Now you mention it... might have something to do with intelligence and experience. Not to mention Madara has also Sharingan, so his perception is trained to notice such a difference. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Naruto makes 3 shadow clones, each of them has the same amount of chakra right? Maybe he saw the one has less chakra than the original would have or something, or Nagato was dumb--Elveonora (talk) 01:16, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

Why Madara knew isn't important, unless the manga itself brings it up. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:24, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

Question?
In the latest chapter, Madara Uchiha said that he gave his eyes to Nagato. Way later on, Obito Uchiha took an eye from Nagato. "Obito implants one of Nagato's Rinnegan in his left socket, replacing the Sharingan he sacrificed." (Thats straight from the article). Should we say that Obito really got one of Madaras eyes instead? Zelwolf (talk) 02:18, October 18, 2012 (UTC)Zelwolf

Not necessary. If we wanted to be really technical about it, we'd have to call them Izuna's eyes, because Madara took Izuna's MS after his went blind. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:38, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Whoa. I didn't even think about that. Crazy man! It's probably best to keep it at saying he took Nagatos eye. I kind forgot that they were Izunas eyes! Zelwolf (talk) 02:52, October 18, 2012 (UTC)Zelwolf

Uchiha/Senju
Having the powers of both the Uchiha and the senju has been stated as a precondition to awakening the rinnegan. So should we not include it on this page as well as the pages of both clans that this kekkei genkai originates/belongs to the clans... the same way the Sharingan is a Uchiha kekkei genkai and Wood release is a Senju kekkei genkai.
 * It doesn't belong to them. It belongs to the Sage. Remerging the bloodlines simply awakens the Rinnegan. It is worth a mention though, I suppose.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 10:58, October 18, 2012 (UTC)


 * Though I kinda appreciate your reasoning, but it makes me think... If the rinnegan is not an Uchiha or Senju kekkei genkai even though having the powers of both clans is a preçondition, then does that mean Izanagi is not an uchiha kinjutsu ability since the complete izanagi requires both Senju and Uchiha powers i.e. Remerging the bloodlines. However it is clearly labelled an Uchiha kinjutsu. which would make Rinnegan an Uchiha kekkei genkai even though Remerging the bloodlines is necessary. However I would also add the rinnegan as a Senju kekkei genkai because awakening the rinnegan is impossible without senju powers however it is possible to use an incomplete Izanagi without senju power so it is not necessary to add Izanagi as a Senju kinjutsu. Its fine if you see this differently but I think it should be somehow mentioned on both clans pages as well as this page. By the way how do i sign my comments
 * Put four ~ at the end of your post. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:29, October 18, 2012 (UTC)

Having senju dna is not a requirement as itachi explained in chapter 587 in the manga. What you are suggesting is that all the Uchiha members in history, which were quite alot all had their hands on senju dna. --Naruto6paths (talk) 19:52, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

Transplanted rinnegan active at all times?
Hmm is that really the case? Nagato didn't have the rinnegan the moment it was transplanted; he awakened it when is parents died. I'd also like the note a transplanted sharingan doesn't stay constant all the time; kakashi is able to switch between normal and mangekyo. --1337 B33FC4K3 (talk) 06:00, October 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * It is not. It has been removed.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 10:47, October 31, 2012 (UTC)

Madara had the sharingan and mangekyo sharingan, then he gained the rinnegan. so, before his death he had sharingan, mangekyo sharingan and rinnegan and can switch between them, as shown when he was re-incarnated. Is there a reason why Nagato can't use mangekyo sharingan/sharingan as well, since he did get the same eyes from madara? Same thing goes with Obito, when he got Nagato's rinnegan. Since Nagato got his rinnegan from Madara, shouldn't this mean he has access to the Mangekyo Sharingan and Sharingan Madara had before? 14.200.13.226 (talk) 07:06, May 16, 2013 (UTC)

No. Kakashi can't deactivate his Sharingan. If he had received the eye as MS already, it stands to reason he wouldn't be able to deactivate it to regular Sharingan as well. Same with Nagato and Rinnegan. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:13, May 16, 2013 (UTC)

Adding an "Acquisition" section
I'll add a section in teh article which details obtaining the Rinnegan. If you like it, it can stay. If you don't like it, feel free to remove it. Xfing (talk) 11:05, November 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * What excactly do you mean by "obtaining the Rinnegan"?--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 11:23, November 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * obtaining Sharingan -> obtaining Mangekyō Sharingan -> obtaining EMS -> obtaining Senju cells -> obtaining Rinnegan Xfing (talk) 11:32, November 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * I've already removed it. Not only was it interjected with wrong information, everything there was mentioned already. The second paragraph that spoke about rearing Rinnegan babies was utterly unnecessary. Leave some things to people's imagination.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 11:35, November 12, 2012 (UTC)

Maintaining Susanoo has nothing to do with Rinnegan
Maintaining Susanoo has nothing to do with the Rinnegan. It serves no purpose in the topic. Itachi maintained Susanoo without even the Sharingan.NoJutsu (talk) 02:55, December 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Itachi used Susanoo with (near) blinded Mangekyo Sharingan, as his eyes were not shaded in the manga as they usually would be, similar to how his left eye was depicted after using Izanami. Madara using Susanoo with his Rinnegan active is the only time the technique has had a confirmed non-Mangekyo use, so it might be worth mentioning.--BeyondRed (talk) 03:31, December 12, 2012 (UTC)

Question
Since Madara has the ability to change from Eternal MS to Rinnegan, is it still possible for Madara to change from Rinnegan back to to Eternal MS, since Madara throughout the manga was already seen activating the Rinnegan? 125.212.50.94 (talk) 11:29, June 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * He's already done that in the manga. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:51, June 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh maybe I haven't looked much into the detail, but thanks for the answer. 125.212.50.94 (talk) 05:48, June 3, 2013 (UTC)

Samsara
I don't know if this is the place to ask/talk about this, but when doing a swift read of the Rinnegan article, I clicked on the Samsara hyperlink which brought me to the Samsara page on Wikipedia. Under the "In Popular Culture" section, it says the Rinnegan allows the user to preform any Jutsu wanted. I want to change this to "allows the the user to potentially completely master all five basic nature transformations that form the basis of ninjutsu", similar to what is on the Naruto Wiki Rinnegan page. Would this be a more accurate change, or should it be kept the same? The Rinnegan does not let the user use any jutsu, just master the nature release of the jutsu. The user would still have to learn the jutsu, right? Zelwolf (talk) 02:28, October 20, 2013 (UTC)Zelwolf
 * While we don't really have an interest in what is on the main Wikipedia page. It would indeed be more accurate if it were changed to whvt is on Narutopedia since we have a direct translation.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 02:40, October 20, 2013 (UTC)

Madara's acquisition of the Rinnegan
If I'm right, soon after Nagato died and was buried, Obito took BOTH Rinnegan from the former's corpse, right? After that, Kabuto resurrected Nagato, using his "fake" Rinnegan and all. Then, Itachi sealed Nagato's resurrected corpse with the Totsuka Sword with Susanoo. My question stems from the following picture: File:Rinnegan_acquisition.png, taken from Naruto Chapter 659, page 9. This manga page implies that White Zetsu didn't retrieve the Rinnegan from Nagato's corpse. The Rinnegan page states that White Zetsu retrieved the right-eye Rinnegan from Nagato's corpse, but how is that possible? WindStar7125 (talk) 00:12, December 24, 2013 (UTC) WindStar7125
 * Obito grabs Nagato's eyes, implants the left one, hides the right one. WZ finds the right eye, gives it to Madara. Nagato's resurrection and sealing has no influence on the real eyes. Seelentau 愛議 23:24, December 23, 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. So the Rinnegan page shouldn't say "while a White Zetsu clone managed to retrieve the right Rinnegan from Nagato's corpse", nor should any other page mention that Madara retrieved the Rinnegan from Nagato's dead body. WindStar7125 (talk) 23:49, December 23, 2013 (UTC) WindStar7125

Classification of Rinnegan Jutsu
Hey I have noticed that the jutsu unique to each of the six paths, are not classified as kekkei genkai. Each of the Jutsu can only be accessed through one of the six paths, with the latter can only be obtained via the Rinnegan. I mean only the jutsu of the god path and outer path and each indivisual path are listed as kekkei genkai. So why shouldn't the soul absorption, asura attack and jutsu absorption not be listed as kekkei genkai. Tuxedo12 (talk) 22:38, December 30, 2013 (UTC)
 * Some of the jutsu Nagato used through the Rinnegan were not listed as kekkei genkai in their databook entry, so unless barring very strong suggestion that it is indeed a Rinnegan power, we have to assume those are like these other jutsu. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:50, December 30, 2013 (UTC)

Nagato being a Senju Descendant
I would like to point out that Zetsu's statement of Nagato being of Senju Lineage does not pertain to descent but to blood relations only, the original word that was used in the Japanese was "Keto" meaning blood, not "Sorsen" which means descent, it is more accurate to say that Nagato is a blood relative of the Senju, not descendant. Celebrei - Talk - Contributions 23:22, January 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * It says 血統 kettō, which means lineage, pedigree, family line or birth. The word sorsen doesn't exist, though. Nagato is from the Senju lineage, so it's not wrong to say he descends from it and is therefore a descendant, isn't it? Seelentau 愛議 23:27, January 3, 2014 (UTC)

Lineage means consanguinity which means relationship by blood, it does not necessarily pertain to descent, only blood relations. By listing Nagato as a "Senju Descendant" the readers are given the wrong impression that his entire clan descended from the Senjus which is a falsity since the Uzumakis are only said to be distant blood relatives of the Senjus, if they descended from the same Apical Ancestor then they would be close relatives, not distant, which would contradict Manga Canon.

It is more correct to say that Nagato is a young boy/young man/ young male from/of the Senju Lineage, not descendant because the Genealogical coefficient of blood relationships that Nagato has with the Senjus hasn't been clearly established yet. Celebrei - Talk - Contributions 00:25, January 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * I totally don't know what the difference between descendant and blood relative is, so do what you think is correct. I can just supply you with the Japanese terms. Seelentau 愛議 00:29, January 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Saying that Nagato is a Senju descendant isn't wrong, since the Uzumaki clan as a whole was said to be blood relatives of the Senju, meaning they have their blood, branching out either from a common ancestor before each clan became known as Senju and Uzumaki, or from an already established Senju clan. They didn't say only a few Uzumaki were related to the Senju, they mentioned the clan in general. They can still be distant blood relatives if the there are enough generations between them, even if they have a common ancestor. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:05, January 4, 2014 (UTC)

The Uzumakis are stated to be distant blood relatives of the Senjus, if they branched from the same common apical ancestor (Younger Son) they would be considered in Genealogical terms as close blood relatives, not distant, for that would mean they would be a sibling clan to the Senjus, but they're not. Being a distant blood relative pertains to distant blood relations not direct lineal descent like the Senjus have from the Younger Son. It is collateral kinship not direct lineal ascent/descent from the Younger Son Celebrei (talk) 01:13, January 4, 2014 (UTC)

I would also like to point out this scan in the Manga that clearly defines the Senjus as being the only descendants of the Younger Son, not Senjus and Uzumakis:

http://i.imgur.com/g8kKaOb.jpg

"The Brother's descendants continued fighting" and the Uzumakis were ultimately absent from the Senju and Uchiha Feud. Celebrei (talk) 01:17, January 4, 2014 (UTC)

Uchiha and Senju are distant relatives themselves, having a common ancestor. Regardless of branching from a common ancestor of the Senju, or from an already established Senju clan, enough generations since the split without marrying between the clans (which only happened rather recently with Mito and Hashirama) would render them distant relatives either way. And that panel is from a chapter that long precedes the reveal of the Senju and Uzumaki being related. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:11, January 5, 2014 (UTC)

No, this panel comes from Tobi narrating to Sasuke about the history of the Senju vs Uchiha Feud, barely 50-60 chapter before chapter 500, this isn't a retcon whatsoever.

Also, it is a categorical error to apply individual blood ties to holistic blood ties, you may say two persons are distant blood relatives even if sharing a common ancestor, but you can never say two families sharing the same Apical Ancestor be distant blood relatives, if they are sibling clans (holistically) they would be close relatives, and in suggesting that the Uzumakis are off-shoots of the Senjus that would even make them closer blood relatives since the Uzumakis would be a descendant clan of the Senjus.

Also you have to factor in the Uzumaki Trademark Red Hair, why do pure blooded Uzumakis have this trait and the Senjus don't? the Younger Son was never stated to have red hair, in fact, in the anime depiction it's black like the Elder Son, then this ancestor (Younger Son) would have two branching descendants: one with various hair colors (Senju) and the other redheads? biologically impossible, red hair is a recessive trait, only if the Uzumaki's ancestors were redheads can they maintain that trademark red hair, look at Naruto: because of the recessive red hair trait, he acquired the yellow hair of Minato.

We will never find a direct statement in the Manga that the Uzumakis are descendants of the Younger Son, only that Nagato is of Senju Lineage (Kinship/Blood Relative) and that the Senjus and Uzumakis are distant blood relatives (Kushina's statement in ch.500) how the Uzumakis are distantly blood related to the Senjus has still not been expounded upon, whether they are of direct lineal descent from the Younger Son or they are Collateral Blood Relatives of the Senjus but not necessarily descending from the Younger Son, I think it's rather intellectually dishonest if the article declares as factual certainty that the Uzumakis are descendants of the Younger Son and the Senjus even though their consanguinity with the Senju Ancestor and his descendants hasn't been clearly expounded yet. Celebrei (talk) 04:37, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

No. That panel is not from that. Obito told Sasuke about the feud between the Senju and Uchiha around chapter 400. The panel you linked above is of Obito telling Sasuke, Kakashi and Yamato about the curse of hatred, and how it began when Rikudo chose the younger son over the older to be his heir, which happened about 60 chapters after that. The reveal of Uzumaki and Senju being related was only revealed around chapter 500. I never said it was a retcon, I only said that the whole your distant/close blood relatives rationale is flawed. In the panel you linked, Obito didn't say the Senju are the only descents of the younger son, only that they are. What I mentioned about that panel is that this happened before the Uzumaki reveal, and neither revelation invalidates the other. Kinkaku and Ginkaku surviving eating tailed beast flesh is attributed to them being descendants of the Sage, yet they're neither Senju nor Uchiha. What you're ignoring is the time factor. Merely having a common ancestor before they were called Senju and Uzumaki proper, or the Uzumaki first branching from already established Senju, as long no mix between them (the only known instance of which is Mito and Hashirama, which is fairly recent), it doesn't matter how the split happens, because with many generations since the split, they'd become distant blood relatives either way, and in both cases, there's a direct blood relationship that would make the Uzumaki clan in general related to the Senju clan in general, not just specific people. That, is clear. Red hair is easily explained by occurring randomly in the Uzumaki after they became a separate clan, explaining why it's not present in the Senju. You're not going to convince anyone the list anything differently with the information that is currently available. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:05, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

If you're going to be adamant in your assumption that the Uzumakis are descendants of the Younger Son then go ahead, because my protestation is about how you and this article declares it as infallible truth that the Uzumaki Clan descended from the Younger Son, which was never stated in the Manga, except for vague passages like Nagato is of Senju Lineage (Kinship/Blood Relative) and that the Uzumaki Clan (holistically) are distant blood relatives of the Senju, my concern is the objectivity and integrity of this article, if in the event the upcoming chapters reveal otherwise, that the Uzumakis are not descendants of the Younger Son, then we will have an embarrassing retraction and the integrity and credibility of this article will be compromised. Celebrei (talk) 01:41, January 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * We don't care about having to do retractions. If something is proven otherwise we simply make the change and keep going forward. We care about systematic retractions (Like translations changing and the like) because those are flippin stupid.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 02:25, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

But in the meantime we shouldn't also declare assumptions as factual statements like the Uzumaki Clan are descendants of the Younger Son, that is an assumption since it has never been explicitly stated in the Manga. Celebrei (talk) 02:29, January 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * Care to explain where it's even mentioned that they are descendants of the younger son? Because unless it's buried somewhere all I see is mention that they are related to the Senju clan...which they are.--02:32, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

Well for example this article declares that Nagato is of Senju Lineage (according to Zetsu's statement) but it links the Uzumaki Clan being (holistically) of the Senju Lineage, that is the categorical error of this article, since it has never been stated that (holistically) the Uzumaki Clan are of the Senju Lineage which implies (if it is interpreted as lineal descent) that both the Uzumaki and Senju descended from the same Apical Ancestor, that is an assumption, for all we know they are merely Collateral Blood Relatives (Distant Blood Relatives accdg. to Kushina), and the coefficient of blood relationship Nagato (personally) has with the Senjus has not been expounded yet. It is better to list Nagato (personally) of Senju Lineage without linking the Uzumaki Clan as Senju Lineage, only that they are, distant blood relatives of the Senju Celebrei (talk) 02:39, January 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * I thought that was your reasoning. Look, neither the Rinnegan article or the Uzumaki article make any mention of the Younger Son. Nobody is making such an assumption, and even if they were, they are welcome to make the assumption. It probably won't be reflected in the article. All that matters is stating what has been stated: Uzumaki and Senju are related. Trying to change the article in such a way to hide what we do know in an attempt to make sure people can't come up with something on their own is, for lack of a better phrase, stupid of us.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 02:48, January 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * EDIT CONFLICT: And by the Light please type your entire message the first time instead of going back and adding to it. For one, it makes trying to reply to anything difficult. Two, unless you are doing spelling corrections, it is bad form to add a new message after the first was time stamped. Also using wouldn't hurt so the page can flow until a indent reset.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 02:48, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

Very well and I apologize, I was merely concern with the Eisegetical implications of the text and the article. Celebrei (talk) 02:58, January 10, 2014 (UTC)


 * It is also very poor form to delete things, even if they area your own comment.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 03:28, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

One thing he is correct about is that it was Nagato himself noted to be of Senju lineage, not the whole Uzumaki Clan in general. No one is denying that the two clans are related by blood. But for all we know, Nagato's connection to Senju might have been stronger and more recent, we aren't even sure if both his parents were Uzumaki or just one. Wouldn't surprise me if Nagato was another Tsunade case. But the topic is pointless, just like Ulti, I can't find it being stated or suggested in any article, so what exactly is being argued about? Back in the day, it stated Nagato to be a young Senju descendant with a redirect to Uzumaki Clan, but that's gone now I believe, the topic would have more relevance if it were made then.--Elveonora (talk) 13:37, January 10, 2014 (UTC)

Known Wielders (Nagato)
Why is Nagato no longer listed as a wielder in the infobox? I'd change it myself but I'm unsure how to edit a particular infobox, unless there was a reason to remove him? Reeves92 (talk) 02:43, February 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * He is listed. His name is the first. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 05:11, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

I don't see Nagato too in the infobox. Maybe it is some bug? HorizonStriker (talk) 06:41, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

Agreed, I also don't see him as a user. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 07:06, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

Because he's not there Riptide240 (talk) 09:36, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

Still seeing him there. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:09, February 14, 2014 (UTC)


 * Seeing him too. Try null-editing this page as well as Nagato.--~Ultimate Supreme  15:11, February 14, 2014 (UTC)


 * Ok im seeing him now. Riptide240 (talk) 15:15, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

Yep, it's back now, thanks guys. Odd it showed for some and not others. Reeves92 (talk) 04:00, February 15, 2014 (UTC)

Ashura + Indra = Rinnegan
According to the latest chapter, you need specifically the chakra of Indra and Ashura to combine in order to get the Rinnegan, which means you have to be a reincarnation of either of those two to be able to get it, I guess we should add that to the article. --Chrillbill (talk) 14:32, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Aye. What I'm wondering about is, do you still need the Mangekyo Sharingan? Seelentau 愛議 14:43, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * So this is why Obito hasn't gotten his own Rinnegan, I suppose, nor Danzo--Elveonora (talk) 20:33, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Obito hasn't gotten Rinnegan yet because he hasn't. Madara only awakened Rinnegan in his advanced age, and he raised the point that for this reason Obito probably wouldn't awaken it. The descendents of both clans have Indra's and Ashura's chakra though, its just the reincarnations do to a far greater extent. Skarrj (talk) 20:44, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * Na, there's a difference between being a descendant of Indra and being his reincarnation. Seelentau 愛議 20:53, April 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * They aren't even literal reincarnations or are they? Only the chakras get passed on, not their souls. Otherwise it would be impossible for there to be both Madara&Sasuke and Hashirama&Naruto at once.--Elveonora (talk) 21:06, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

I don't know the specifics on the real world definition of reincarnation, but this chapter made it very clear that to get the Rinnegan, one specifically needs the chakra of Indra and Asura, who from time to time are reincarnated. If they were to suddenly reincarnate in two other random clans, and a similar cell implanting happened, Rinnegan would pop up. It has nothing to do with actually being blood related to Hagoromo. And remember, in the wise, wise words of TU3: "chakra is screwy". Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:39, April 2, 2014 (UTC)

Real world definition of reincarnation means to be reborn again after the passing of your current physical vessel with your soul being given another one to occupy, like you get killed or "die" of old age and a second later you just wake up in a newborn baby, meaning it's immediate. We were told only chakras of Ashura and Indra get passed on, so they aren't literal reincarnations, more like inheritors of power. If it were a real incarnation, then there would be no Madara and Hashirama to be revived with Edo Tensei since they would be Sasuke and Naruto at the time. For chakra is screwy, I don't think it's to be taken literary. If that were, then all Orochimaru would have had to do was to absorb some chakra from both Naruto and Sasuke and hurray!!! The Rinnegan.... there wouldn't be a reason for him to go through decades of genetic experiments. To me it's obvious the chakras of Ashura and Indra get passed on only to their blood descendants, because they genetically have a portion/watered down version of said chakras already. If it were any different, then we would have Inuzuka and Aburame with powers of Ashura and Indra--Elveonora (talk) 10:15, April 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, chakra is in fact screwy.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:11, April 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * The physical body creates more chakra. So even if Orochimaru or Madara as examples got hands on both chakras of Ashura and Indra, getting the Rinnegan, it would be only temporarily and gone the moment they would have spent up the said chakra, or not? Meaning a piece of body indeed is required, to continuously create the chakras--Elveonora (talk) 12:20, April 3, 2014 (UTC)

Power to See One's Life-Force
In chapter 672, Madara was able to see the life-force of Might Guy flickering out. Later, Naruto, using the power of the Sage of Six Paths, targeted that same point to save Guy's life. This should be added to Madara and the Rinnegan's page. Steveo920, 16:14, April 9, 2014
 * That was just chakra not life-force. Also it mustn't even meant that Madara saw it, could have been Kishimoto showing us.--Elveonora (talk) 20:16, April 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * Madara was plainly talking a key point on Guy. Steveo920, 16:20, April 9, 2014
 * Looks exactly like what he saw when Guy opened the last gate, which was chakra. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:30, April 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Madara: "From the chakra around your heart's pressure point, I can see that the next attack will be your last". No life force mentioned.--JOA20 (talk) 20:32, April 9, 2014 (UTC)

Differing appearance..
There is two known Rinnegan.. the one that has the tomoe seals which the Shinju, Kaguya and Sasuke have and the one that Hagoromo and Madara have. Anybody have any clue what the actual differences between the two are? ItachiWasAHero (talk) 09:06, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * The problem is that both are called Rinnegan, while the Tomoe-Rinnegan is also called Sharingan. Other than that (and the Tomoe), there's no apparent difference shown yet. Seelentau 愛議 09:29, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * This is so confusing... so Kaguya's Rinnegan+Sharingan is called Sharingan and Sasuke's Rinnegan+Sharingan is called Rinnegan. Kishi is playing fools with us--Elveonora (talk) 13:50, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

Hahaha well yes kishi is lol, but anyways will there be a pic added of the kinds of rinnegan on this page? Munchvtec (talk) 14:03, April 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * A Rinnegan is always a Sharingan, but a Sharingan isn't always a Rinnegan. I'd just describe how Sasuke gained the Rinnegan, that it's like a fusion of Rinnegan and Sharingan and that it was called Sharingan by Hagoromo earlier. Everything else is speculation and should be kept out of the article, as usual. • Seelentau 愛議 14:05, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

But to be more specific, the tomoe rinnegan only appears in a single eye,(one eyed Jubi, third eye of Kaguya, and now Sasuke), while the Rinnegan awakened for both eyes are the purplish tomoe less ones. But still strange, Kaguya's hyper-super eye was considered as a sharingan, and Sasuke's a rinnegan. Gerisama (talk) 16:29, April 16, 2014 (UTC)Gerisama

I believe the difference stems from the manner of acquisition. Madara's eyes evolved over time and exposure to Hashirama's chakra, whereas this "perfect" version of Kaguya's and Sasuke's was achieved by taking in the Ten-tails fruit or gifted to by the Ten-Tails host (my theory being that the Sage of Six Paths they encountered outside of natural time would still have some of the beasts' chakra). I'm sure they're almost identical in effect and ability, but i'm sure there will be a significant difference between a Natural Rinnegan and Nurtured Rinnegan. Shadowfox337 (talk) 17:45, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

Another difference would be is that the Rinnegan that Kaguya, Juubi, and Sasuke was shown too be red in colour on volume cover for volume 64 instead of the normal purple that the regular version has

That should probably listed in the article as well since it isn't mentioned that there's different color variations for the Rinnegan.--Thdyingbreed (talk) 18:10, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

I say we simply stop trying to make sense of things. Kaguya's eye was called a Sharingan, we call it Sharingan where it concerns her, Sasuke's eye was called a Rinnegan, we call it Rinnegan where it concerns him. What I want to know, is that do we call Shinju's eye now. We decided to call it Sharingan because its eye was the same as Kaguya's, and hers was called a Sharinga, but now there's another possibility and no concrete comparison in-universe. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 05:13, April 17, 2014 (UTC)

what I'm wondering is, who called kaguya third eye sharingan? Cause i dont remember anyone or statement saying she had sharingan. Now she does have the powers of sharingan.. Sasuke new eye looks not similiar but exactly like Kaguya's third eye. Knowing that sasuke has the power of sharingan and rinnegan with his new it will probably be safe to say the same for kaguya.--Ankhael (talk) 03:15, April 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Kaguya was said to have the Sharingan's power, not the Sharingan eye. Her eye likely allows the usage of Sharingan abilities, but it still seems to be the same eye as the Rinnegan. Xfing (talk) 19:00, April 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Xfing, please observe the chronological order of the replies. And no. The term used in the raw was douryuko, which has long been considered a synonym with doujutsu. So she has Sharingan, that is clear as day. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:56, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * I believe Seel's response to this was that every Rinnegan is a Sharingan. Therefore stating that a Rinnegan user has the Sharingan isn't wrong. So Kaguya having had the Sharingan doesn't exclude having the Rinnegan as well--Elveonora (talk) 18:01, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * At least one editor read what I said. :D • Seelentau 愛議 18:04, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Reading is something, agreeing is another. Your argument is that as the Rinnegan is the final stage of the Sharingan, every Rinnegan user is by extension a Sharingan user. That falls because as far as we know, Hagoromo never had the Sharingan. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:34, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Indra was born with "his father's eyes". Indra had the Sharingan. --JOA20 (talk) 19:37, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

@Omni, just because a character isn't known to have used X doesn't mean he/she can't use X. Tobirama is yet to use Edo Tensei on screen too, yet we know he made it and used it in the past. We know the Rinnegan is also a Sharingan by extension, so yes, Hagoromo also had the Sharingan--Elveonora (talk) 19:40, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * @JOA20 "His father's eyes" = "he has doujutsu". Indra had a Sharingan, not a Rinnegan. Even in the "every Rinnegan is a Sharingan" argument, that doesn't mean "every Sharingan is a Rinnegan". Sage was always known by the Rinnegan, not Sharingan. Knowing and using a jutsu is much simpler than having an ever-complicated working-er dojutsu. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:07, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * And the Rinnegan is but Sharingan with an extra layer of flavor on top of it. Please explain, how could he have had the Rinnegan without having the Sharingan too. The Rinnegan is everything that the Sharingan is but more.--Elveonora (talk) 20:16, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

I fully agree with Elveonora. Hagoromo probably has access to the Sharingan. It hasn't been shown in the manga, and it shouldn't be listed under the Kekkei Genkai section (not that anyone suggested that, but Elveonora seems to imply so). That's would make us look like headless Naruto fans. Plus, it'd be connecting the dots. Same logic with Kaguya, she has the Byakugan and Sharingan, NOT the Rinnegan (unless later stated otherwise). BTW, you guys should stop whining about the "Power of the Sharingan." She was clearly shown to have the Sharingan eye on her forehead, and the raw stated it was the eye itself. Though it may be exactly like Sasuke's and the Shinju's eyes, the manga stated Sasuke's was a Rinnegan (and if you look at the chapter 674 raw that leaked, his eye is looking more like the Rinnegan we're accustomed to seeing, it's losing tomoe!) and Kaguya's was a Sharingan. Things that look alike do not mean that they are the same (again, unless stated otherwise). So far, Kaguya doesn't have a Rinnegan. The Shinju doesn't have a Rinnegan. Sasuke does. Stop making a big damn deal out of this "Power of the Sharingan" notion. It's pure nonsense, ridiculous and downright stupid. Kishimoto-sensei may have confused us, but that is how he made things, and we should follow suit, not make stupid assumptions and overanalyze things. WindStar7125 (talk) 21:34, April 22, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125

Kaguya and the Juubi should be listed as users.
Since the Sasuke's eye has been confirmed too be the Rinnegan Kaguya and the Juubi should be listed as well since they share the same eye.--Thdyingbreed (talk) 18:25, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

The respective topics are still going, we will have to think this through first.--Elveonora (talk) 18:26, April 16, 2014 (UTC)

"Switching" Speculation
"While the powers of the Rinnegan remain intact upon implanting them into a new person, like Nagato and Obito, only one who "naturally" manifests the Rinnegan, as in Madara's case, is able to switch between the Rinnegan and Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan; otherwise, the Rinnegan is always activated."

The sentence above is pure speculation. It is never stated once that only those who "naturally" manifests the Rinnegan can switch between it and the Sharingan. That is pure speculation. Madara has shown to switch his eyes, however it has never been stated that any other person with it was unable to switch it, it was never shown, which could be due to any number of reasons (such as them feeling the Rinnegan was [truthfully] the most powerful choice). That would be the equivalent of stating that a character CANNOT use a chakra nature, just because they have not been shown to use it (which we would never due, we would just leave it blank and only fill it in if information has been given). The policies on this site are very clear that unless the information has been outright stated or confirmed, which this is not, it should NEVER be included in the article. Dragon Hacker (talk) 03:39, April 18, 2014 (UTC)


 * Changed it to say only Madara has been seen deactivating the Rinnegan. While unlikely, we don't know if Nagato and Obito could or not, so we shouldn't say either way.--BeyondRed (talk) 04:07, April 18, 2014 (UTC)

Hear me out
Although Nagato had Madara's Rinnegan... I think I know the reason Obito called him the Third Six Paths. He was an Uzumaki and was Edo Tensei'ed WITH the Rinnegan, as if the Kekkei Genkei was in his blood the same way Itachi had the Mangekyo in his blood, so I believe although initially the eyes were transplanted to him from Madara they actually helped him awaken his OWN Rinnegan since the eyes had Uchiha DNA. Therefor although he had Madara's Rinnegan in his head it also helped him awaken his own Rinnegan in his blood, so if he had lost Madara's eyes and transplanted Random Sharingan eyes or maybe even another pair of normal eyes, then those eyes would be able to transform into his own Rinnegan eyes. That is why Madara is the Second Six Paths and he is the Third Six Paths. Also, would Sasuke be called the Fourth Six Paths since he awakened the "One-Eyed Rinnegan"?? ItachiWasAHero (talk) 14:31, April 25, 2014 (UTC)


 * The Impure World Reincarnation brings you back just as you were at the moment of death, unless modified afterwards. When Nagato died, he had the Rinnegan, thus he was revived with the Rinnegan. Same reason why Itachi was revived with his eyes, despite Sasuke having them.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:57, April 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * To be honest, I don't think either of us really knows how exactly Edo Tensei works and it irks me to behold that some of us pretend otherwise.--Elveonora (talk) 18:26, April 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Edo Tensei, and many other jutsu, work as the plot needs them to work. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:24, April 26, 2014 (UTC)

new teleportation technique
shouldn't this technique be created? Sasuke can teleport objects and himself within a certain distance?--AsianInvasion711 (talk) 04:14, April 28, 2014 (UTC)

I think we should hold off since we don't know all the details yet. We know absolutely nothing about his method of teleportation, so we should probably just wait a chapter or 2 and then create the page with what we know, because at this point it would barely constituate a sentence. Skarrj (talk) 05:37, April 28, 2014 (UTC)

This may sound crazy
Madara and Obito should be listed with all of Nagato's Rinnegan techniques.

Madara had the dōjutsu and the Gedō Mazō for a unknown amount of time he must have learned a plethora of things before implanting the eyes into Nagato. We know Obito is Madara's apprentice, he must have passed on some of this knowledge to Obito. He's the only person that could have trained Nagato how to properly wield the Rinnegan, and the plan original was for Nagato to ultimately revive Madara.

On a side Madara should be listed for the Sealing Technique: Phantom Dragons Nine Consuming Seals technique, i believe he passed it on to Obito to teach Nagato how to seal the tailed beast into the Gedō Mazō. (Kuroiraikou (talk) 18:47, April 29, 2014 (UTC))

Not quite. First, the way Madara pulled the tailed beasts back into the statue, it was not with the ethereal dragons, it was with chakra chains, that had a clothespin-like end, which vaguely made them look like dragon heads. Second, no. Look back to when we first saw Nagato summon the statue, chronologically, when Yahiko died. When he deflected the kunai and shuriken from the Ame-nin, he seemed to do that pretty instinctively. While I'm certain that Madara passed knowledge to Obito, and Obito in turn did the same to Nagato, we can't be certain of what, because Nagato has done at least two things, seemingly on his own, before any instruction. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:01, April 29, 2014 (UTC)

Hypothesis on Sasuke's Rinnegan
You guys remember that scene in chapter 661 when Hashirama gave his remaining chakra to Sasuke, correct? The point of that was to try and "bind" Madara, according to the First Hokage himself (which in turn, failed miserably). My question was why would Kishi include that scene? What exactly was the point of getting us to believe that Sasuke would try and bind Madara if it was going to fail? I believe that Sasuke receiving Hashirama's chakra contributed to the young Uchiha gaining the Rinnegan. Here's why: In chapter 671, it was revealed that Hashirama was the previous reincarnation of Asura and Madara was the previous reincarnation of Indra. We were initially told in chapter 606 that one can obtain the Rinnegan by having the power of both the Senju and the Uchiha, but this was further specified in chapter 671 that mixing Indra's (the Uchiha ancestor) and Asura's (the Senju ancestor) chakras provide the Rinnegan, proven by Madara. Sasuke is the current reincarnation of Indra. I think the point of that scene in chapter 661 was to foreshadow Sasuke gaining the Rinnegan. When Sasuke's chakra (or rather, Indra's) mixed with Hashirama's (the former bearer of Asura's chakra), along with Hagoromo's chakra speeding up the process, I think that is how Sasuke gained the Rinnegan. Think about it. This hypothesis is consistent with the fact mentioned in this article that mixing the legendary Sage's sons' chakra creates the Rinnegan. We once assumed that Sasuke gained Rinnegan by receiving Hashirama's cells from Kabuto, which wasn't necessarily proven. So I think gaining Hashirama and Hagoromo's chakra allowed Sasuke to awaken the Rinnegan without having to wait as long as Madara did. I suggest we include in the articles talking about Sasuke's Rinnegan that gaining Hashirama's chakra contributed to the awakening of it. WindStar7125 (talk) 01:03, May 3, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125
 * We don't even know if Hashirama and Madara still have Ashura and Indra's chakras respectively, they were stated to move on.--Elveonora (talk) 13:35, May 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * in 671,page 6 The sage refers to the current madara as Indra's Successor which implies that Madara is still indra's Successor--Dwelf (talk) 13:58, May 8, 2014 (UTC)

I'm well aware of that. The manga stated the Asura and Indra's chakras reincarnate into new bodies. Asura's chakra reincarnated into Hashirama and Naruto's bodies. Indra's chakra reincarnated into Madara and Sasuke's bodies. Hashirama's chakra is Asura's. Naruto's chakra is also Asura's. Sasuke's chakra is Indra's. Madara's chakra is Indra's as well. The article states that one can obtain the Rinnegan by mixing Asura's and Indra's chakras. WindStar7125 (talk) 17:03, May 3, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125
 * The point is, do the reincarnated Hashirama and revived Madara still have Asura and Indra's chakra respectively? Since it passed down to Naruto and Sasuke.--JOA20 (talk) 17:16, May 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Considering the fact that (as far as we know) no other reincarnations of Indra or Asura have been completely revived, we really have no idea. Its probably best to just assume Madara still has Indra's chakra, though its completely debatable. Atrix471 (talk) 17:18, May 3, 2014 (UTC)

The manga stated that Asura's and Indra's chakra's reincarnate into new bodies. Meaning Hashirama and Naruto's chakras were Asura's to begin with. Same with Sasuke's and Madara's already being Indra's by the time they were born. Madara gained the Rinnegan by the time Hashirama was presumably dead and Asura's chakra "passed down." It seems these chakra not only move on, they spread and distribute through various hosts through various generations. This article, like the manga, states one can obtain the Rinnegan by having Asura and Indra's chakras. How else would Sasuke have gained the Rinnegan? WindStar7125 (talk) 17:37, May 3, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125

Considering Naruto and Sasuke were born shortly after Madara's death, who had both Ashura and Indra's chakras, it was likely because no new "incarnates" could be born before Madara had died. So Madara shouldn't now have the chakras, unless some Edo Tensei magic is happening--Elveonora (talk) 21:41, May 3, 2014 (UTC)

But Sasuke does have both Asura and Indra's chakras. That is how you get the Rinnegan in the first place. WindStar7125 (talk) 22:16, May 3, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125
 * Hagoromo gave him his chakra--Elveonora (talk) 11:38, May 4, 2014 (UTC)

And plus, having both Asuras and Indras chakras awakens Hagoromos chakra, which he gave sasuke directly. Riptide240 (talk) 12:18, May 4, 2014 (UTC)

So you're saying that the Rinnegan can be gained by obtaining Hagoromo's chakra? If so, wouldn't Naruto have the Rinnegan? No. All I know is that Sasuke obtained Asura's chakra from somewhere. If you're saying that the Rinnegan appears from having just Hagoromo's chakra, what needs to happen is that the article must state the same sentiment. Senju and Uchiha power make the Rinnegan. More specifically, Asura and Indra's chakras do. Yes, both chakras cause Hagoromo's to surface, but merely gaining the legendary Sage's chakra doesn't necessarily cause the Rinnegan to appear. If so, where's Naruto's Rinnegan? He's got Hagoromo's chakra too. Unless you are Hagoromo himself, the Rinnegan requires Asura and Indra's chakras, like the article and the manga states. Sasuke received Asura's chakra somehow, and gaining Hagoromo's chakra sped up the process, so Sasuke didn't have to wait as long as Madara to awaken the Rinnegan. WindStar7125 (talk) 20:12, May 4, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125

One thing I'd like to add to this conversation. What if it was Asura and Indra that were brought back instead of Madara and Hashi? Would they not have their own chakra? Because that's what saying Hashi and Madara no longer have their chakra is implying. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 20:39, May 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hagoromo himself said that his chakra gives rise to the Rinnegan. Sasuke also doesn't have the Rinnegan as we know it, otherwise he'd have them in both eyes, and without tomoe. He was given something directly by Hagoromo, and yet his Rinnegan differs from Hagoromo's own, and the ones that Madara awakened. Whatever the case, Sasuke not having the same Rinnegan as Hagoromo and Madara means something is different with him, most likely lacking something, as Hagoromo split his power between them. If Asura and Indra were brought back, they'd have their own chakra. Madara and Hashirama had their chakra, but they also had their own chakra. They were the originators of that chakra. Kurama recognized Madara's chakra when he tried summoning it. Madara was able to sense Hashirama's chakra when he was still very far. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:50, May 4, 2014 (UTC)

I'll acknowledge that it is strange why Kishimoto-sama didn't just give Sasuke the common Rinnegan in both eyes. It really confused all of us. Plus, who said Sasuke was "lacking" anything? It may just be a different form of the Rinnegan, as there are different forms of the Mangekyo Sharingan. Hagoromo could have had access to the Rinnegan Sasuke possesses (kinda like how he could have had access to the Sharingan, given what we know), but Kishi probably won't show us that. It is also strange how all nine tailed beasts somehow co-exist within Madara and Naruto, given how Madara sealed all of them in the Ten-Tails' husk, but that's a different subject for a different time. Anyway, it is still plausible that Sasuke has Asura's chakra somehow (Maybe he got it from Naruto when he had that Nine-Tails cloak?). All I know is that scene between Sasuke and Hashirama in chapter 661 was a bit sudden (and almost unneeded in my opinion). But we should find out more about Sasuke's Rinnegan in the upcoming chapters. WindStar7125 (talk) 22:16, May 4, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125
 * I'm assuming something is lacking (or otherwise not quite right), because Sasuke's Rinnegan at least in appearance, seems to be lacking in relation to the regular Rinnegan. First, he only has it in one eye. Second, there are tomoe in it, almost as if it hadn't fully transitioned from Sharingan or Mangekyō Sharingan (varying number of tomoe notwithstanding). If Rinnegan was unique to users, the ones Madara awakened would have been different from Hagoromo's, but they were the same. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:22, May 4, 2014 (UTC)