Talk:Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan

Jiraiya vs Naruto's Sage Mode Rasengan
Ok, I didn't read the chapter where Jiraiya was in Sage Mode, but I did read this week's. In the chapter where Jiraiya used sage mode and tried to hit Pain w/ the Giant Rasengan, was it called something different than the one that Naruto used this week? If not, could it be that the technique that Naruto used is the same? I know that the one Naruto used is specifically named, so if it is the same then this article should be merged w/ the one for Naruto.


 * The names are differnt. Jiraiya literally used Cho Oodoma Rasengan (Super Great Ball Rasengan) while Naruto used Senpo: Oodama Rasengan (Hermit's Art: Great Ball Rasengan). Two different techniques.--TheUltimate3 16:17, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

The techniques are likely the same, though. It should also be noted that Naruto's rasengan didn't stop growing on the panel used here on Narutopedia. Notice that on the panel where Naruto hit the summons, the Rasengan was much larger than himself.

Name and patent
Shouldn't the name of the tech be Senpo: Cho Oodama Rasengan also shouldn't the patent jutsu be Rasengan Rather than the Great ball or should it be both--Nintendo-Fan (talk) 06:53, October 28, 2009 (UTC)Nintendo-Fan
 * Why would the parent jutsu be Rasengan, thats its "grand"parent jutsu. Simant (talk) 17:47, November 6, 2009 (UTC)

Should we add Sage Art: Super Great Ball Rasengan to the "Derived" list? 98.200.252.109 (talk) 15:32, June 22, 2010 (UTC)

I don't think that Senpō: Chōōdama Rasen Tarengan should be on the derived list, since it's not directly derived from the Cho Odama Rasengan. 98.200.252.109 (talk) 16:38, July 2, 2010 (UTC)

Same
His technique and Jiraiya's technique are the same Naruto just called it something else because he never heard Jiraiya say it. Jiraiya was in Sage Mode so it is more than likely a sage technique. Naruto used the Double Rasengan in chapter 432 and then called it the Sage Tech: Double Rasengan in chapter 433. So I think only the names are different but the techniques are the same.
 * If it's all the same to you I think we'll wait for an official release on this.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 15:00, July 1, 2011 (UTC)

naruto was able to do the technique because his other clone was going into sage mode so it got the natural energy to make it but his clone wasn't ready going into the mode.But its the the same technique as jiraiya
 * The clone performing the technique didn't have natural energy to be in sage more. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:18, November 3, 2011 (UTC)

Question
Does it mean that Naruto's "own" power/chakra has surpassed that of Jiraiya ? Jiraiya had to be in Sage Mode to use this technique while Naruto was shown to be able to use the same technique without being so ... Is Naruto's normal/own chakra now stronger than that of Jiraiya's while being in Sage Mode ? I think so Elveonora (talk) 01:08, October 25, 2011 (UTC)

Anime
When did Naruto use this in the anime? 90.222.172.199 (talk) 17:04, November 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * Two or three weeks ago, in before the girl's hang-out episode. He's also used it in the manga recently. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:10, November 3, 2011 (UTC)

Same kanji as Naruto's version
As Naruto's version uses the same kanji as Jiraiya's---except for the "Senpō" bit attached in front of it---why are they still separate articles? It gets even weirder when Naruto is a user of both techniques! Can't we just merge these two articles?--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 23:34, March 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Naruto's: Senpō: Chō Ōdama Rasengan
 * Jiraiya's: Chōōdama Rasengan (I don't even understand why this one is written without space)
 * They were named differently. Odd, yes. However, Sage Art: Rasenrengan is simply Twin Rasengan in Sage Mode, but named differently. Anyway, Naruto can use this outside of Sage Mode. The only way I could see us combining the two is if the 4th databook affirms them as one and the same. Skitts (talk) 04:23, April 2, 2012 (UTC)


 * Uhm...I was talking about Sage_Art:_Ultra-Big_Ball_Rasengan and Ultra-Big_Ball_Rasengan...and both use senjutsu chakra to create an ultra-big-ball-rasengan. Furthermore, Naruto has used both. Which makes it extremely weird to have two articles describing the same thing.--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 18:01, April 3, 2012 (UTC)
 * And as I said, they were named differently. Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan was given a databook article under that name (this was before the use of Naruto's version). They may very well be one and the same, but again, we can't change it unless we learn that from an official source (likely the 4th DB). Skitts (talk) 19:08, April 3, 2012 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the reply. And I understand now that you previously tried to make an analogy to the case of Sage Technique: Spiralling Serial Spheres versus Twin Rasengan. However, there was an actual difference in that case: one used senjutsu chakra while the other didn't. In the situation of Sage_Art:_Ultra-Big_Ball_Rasengan and Ultra-Big_Ball_Rasengan there aren't any differences. And the "Senpō" bit should get the same treatment as "Ninpō"; i.e. some ninja use it while others don't. (BTW, the trivia about Naruto using this technique outside sage mode has been clarified.)


 * Anyway...I'm not the first to point this out and I probably won't be the last. I won't continue arguing about this, but waiting for a Databook to be published seems like a lame excuse. It's a wiki! It's easy to change things.--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 13:32, April 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Now that I think about it, this situation actually has quite a bit in common with the whole Amaterasu and Blaze Release situation. As far as has been told, Blaze Release is simply the manipulation of the Amaterasu flames. However, it is apparently a different nature and may consist of another nature since that has been true of every other advanced nature transformation thus far. The reason I say we should wait for a databook is because it keeps us from making a possibly incorrect assumption and assures us that the information we have is, well, correct. Oh, and I'm the one who initially added that trivia last year when Naruto used the technique in the Adventures at Sea Arc. =P Skitts (talk) 13:37, April 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * The Adventures at Sea Arc??? Uhm, shouldn't there actually be 2 trivia then, because the current one is about manga chapter 560.
 * About Blaze Release. I believe some people are too attached to the idea that any advanced nature has to be a combination of 2 basic ones. As if the manga actually has that degree of consistency---especially when the Uchiha are involved. Additionally, there are far too many failures at logic involved in that debate, but this is not the place to discuss that,--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 14:07, April 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * The trivia was changed when he used the technique in the same way in the manga as well, since it initially referred to such happening only in the anime. Skitts (talk) 14:13, April 4, 2012 (UTC)


 * No, so far, Naruto's "Sage Art" Rasengan variants are all SIGNIFICANTLY larger than the correlating normal Rasengan variant. I think "Sage Art" actually does serve a different purpose than "Ninja Art" for some odd reason, in relation to techniques that have previously been used outside of Sage Mode. I do not think those two are the same technique.

I have a theory... Perhaps both Sage Technique: Spiralling Serial Spheres and Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan can be used outside of Sage Mode by experienced shinobi, but normally require the senjutsu chakra. Naruto does not need to add senjutsu chakra to make Ultra-Big Ball, likely due to his enormous chakra. I think Spiralling Serial Spheres (hate the translation on that one, by the way) COULD be used outside of Sage Mode for someone with good enough chakra control to hold and keep stabilized two Rasengan at the same time (although, perhaps two clones using Rasengan simultaneously would classify as this technique, seeing as the derived techniques Ultra-Many Spiralling Serial Spheres and Sage Art: Many Ultra-Big Ball Spiralling Serial Spheres use Multiple Shadow Clone with no clones holding two Rasengan). In reference to the naming, I think "Sage Technique" prefixes mean the variant is created using Sage Mode (the user cannot use it outside of Sage Mode), but it is not absolutely necessary to include this prefix. By that token, the full name of Jiraiya's Ultra-Big Ball would technically be "Sage Technique: Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan. With the "Sage Art" variant of pre-existing non-sage techniques, the "Sage Art" version is superior in some way (bigger Rasengan)--the user is enhancing the technique with senjutsu chakra.--ScruffyC (talk) 02:03, November 9, 2012 (UTC)

Different names
When Jiraiya uses this technique for the first time, he calls it 超大玉螺旋丸 Chō Ōdama Rasengan. When Naruto's using it in chapter 560 against Madara, he calls it 超大玉　螺旋丸 Chō Ōdama — Rasengan. What to do? btw: If it's written Chōōdama or Chō Ōdama doesn't matter. I prefer it with space, though. Seelentau 愛議 21:02, May 29, 2012 (UTC)

I think this technique is a mistake by Kishi as it uses Natural Energy, it should be "Sage Art" thus I'm for a merger.--Elveonora (talk) 13:16, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

@Elveonora, If you read the description of this and the Sage Art version, they are the exact same thing, except for the naming. I agree with Elveonora, we should merge the two together. Also, I'd always assumed that the extra - was because of how many shadow clones that was using this. Joshbl56 13:27, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

@Elveonora Ultra-Big Ball Rasengan can be used outside of Sage Mode as well. Skitts (talk) 14:30, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

But J-man used it with Sage Mode so his version should be "Sage Art" or not ? I don't remember it being used outside of Sage Mode ...--Elveonora (talk) 14:41, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

The wiki doesn't differentiate between techniques based on whether or not "Ninja Art" is the prefix for them. Perhaps the two could be merged, with a mention that it can also be used outside of Sage Mode and a trivia point explaining how it has been named slightly differently in all three uses? Something like the trivia mentioning Yamato's naming of "Nativity of a Sea of Trees" compared to Hashirama's "Nativity of a World of Trees".--BeyondRed (talk) 19:24, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

@Elveonora A Shadow Clone of a Shadow Clone used this technique against Madara somewhere around chapter 560, while the original clone was entering Sage Mode. He also used it outside of Sage Mode in the anime Adventures at Sea arc. Skitts (talk) 20:24, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

Anime fillers aren't canon. The manga appearance outside of Sage Mode counts though, thanks. Then only J-man's case is weird as he has used "art less" version with Sage Mode, but J-man's should be called the same as Naruto's against Kyubi.--Elveonora (talk) 20:59, May 30, 2012 (UTC)

That trivia is misleading. Makes it seem like he's transmitting sage chakra to his clones. Which he isn't.MangekyoSasuke (talk) 06:00, October 15, 2012 (UTC)