Talk:Tsukuyomi/Archive 1

QUESTIONS REGARDING TOPICS ALREADY IN THE TALK PAGE OR ITS ARCHIVES WILL BE REMOVED, ALONG WITH THE REPLIES TO IT

Name
The article name is Tsukiyomi and that is what was in the article. 71.229.98.95 changed this to Tsukuyomi in this diff. Can someone verify this? ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Nov 27, 2007 @ 04:17 (UTC)
 * Nothing to worry about. Infact that IP caught a mistake. Its is spelled Tsukuyomi, but was spelled wrong here. I redirected it to its actual article.--TheUltimate3 05:09, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Sasuke and Tsukuyomi?
Has it been confirmed that Sasuke can use the Tsukuyomi? In many other pages, it continously says "presumably". This is just out of curiosity, and I would like to know. Thanks for those who help me out with this. 190.35.102.204 23:31, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Sasuke never used tsukuyomi. And where did the info came that all all mangekyo sharingan can use tsukuyomi isn`t tsukuyomi a special ablility only possesed by itachi with his mangekyo?--Kevinhomaster 07:21, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I thought that it was just Itachi because he was a very strong ninja, especially in the area of Genjutsu, that could use it. Of course I could be wrong...if anyone finds the answer it would be helpful if they could tell me. THANKS! Haku711 13:50, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Slowing Down
Is it possible for the Tsukuyomi to slow down the opponent. Look at Naruto Ultimate ninja Storm videos. Please could someone answer? Malkhawam HM 07:20, 20 November 2008 (UTC).

Tsukuyomi has been shown to but the victim in a very real and very painful Genjutsu. If it is slowing someone down, it is because their mind is getting screwed beyond reason. It doesn't actually slow anyone down.--TheUltimate3 12:55, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Would this Slowing Down happen in the real world. Malkhawam HM 13:00, 20 November 2008 (UTC).


 * No. Because Tsukuyomi doesn't actually slow you down. It's a genjutsu that effects the brain, not the body.--TheUltimate3 13:01, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Would the opponent slow down in the real world (at least a little) because of the genjutsu effects on the brain? Malkhawam HM 13:08, 20 November 2008 (UTC).


 * If someone is running at top speed at the user, and the user uses Tsukuyomi, the victim will stop in his tracks as he will suddenly find himself in the genjutsu. If he doesn't slow down, he will fall straight to the ground as his mind is no longer "in" his body but within the genjutsu. He will in no way shape or form, slow down like you see in the Ninja Storm games.--TheUltimate3 13:17, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

If you have seen Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm videos and shows it would seem like in the other world for tsukuyomi it would slow down the user (but mostly for Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm and look when itachi does his awakening mode for Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm he would clearly be seen using the technique). Am I right? Malkhawam HM 13:26, 20 November 2008 (UTC).

It slows down the victims perception of time, by the amount the user wants it. It doesn't however actually slow the victim down.--TheUltimate3 13:29, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

If you have seen Naruto Ultimate Ninja Storm videos Itachi could be seen using Tsukuyomi (not an ougi) the taunt and slow down the opponent (even though i don't know if that is the real world). So do you go an answer? Malkhawam HM 13:40, 20 November 2008 (UTC).


 * Sigh* You are still not getting the difference between canon (manga/anime as this wiki is concerned) and non-canon (movies and games). I've been giving you an answer which you have been ignoring so I am going to say this one last time: Tsukuyomi does NOT slow the person down. If they are running at top speed, and they get it by the Tsukuyomi, they will still be running at top speed when it dissipates. The slow down mechanic which you are hopping on constantly is a GAME-PLAY MECHANIC that exists because a instantaneous, perception destroying genjutsu can not actually function in a game in anything other than a cut scene, and even then video games tend to throw the physics of techniques out the window. So again for the last time, Tsukuyomi does not slow the person down, no matter what you see it can do in the video games.--TheUltimate3 13:48, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

He's right. It's just something that they added in to make the game more fun. Like in the game if you use Anko's special jutsu,the one where snakes wrap around you and your opponent, you won't take any damage. But, in the real world, it's a suicide technique that kills you and your opponent. BTW How did she survive? I am missing that information. Could someone please fill me in? THANKS! Haku711 13:54, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * If you are refering to how she survived when she used it in the manga/anime, she never completed the jutsu, as Orochimaru warned her that the Orochimaru she was going to kill was a clone (a shadow clone in the manga, a earth/mud clone in the anime). Jacce 14:10, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks I've been missing that info for a while! I didn't know she could just stop it like that... COOL! Anyway thanks againHaku711 14:15, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
 * She haden't come that far, merly grabbing Orochimaru's hand and forming the seal. Jacce 14:20, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

madara
shouldn't we put Madara as a user, because Itachi said that Madar could use all four Mangekyo techniques?
 * It was a mistranslation, Itachi was talking about Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan. Jacce | Talk 19:58, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Madara says that he will use the Infinite Tsukuyomi, so should we put him down as a user? Yatanogarasu 21:51, 9 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Wants to be a user ? user. ~SnapperTo 05:00, October 10, 2009 (UTC)


 * Wants to be a user of infinate tysukyuomi, not original, it seems as every person with MS has Tysukyomi, Madara would probably have to have the technique if he wanted to use infinite tysukyomi because just becoming a Jinchuuriki does not give his MS Tysukuomi but would give him the power to be able to cast it on the moon so everyone would be under his genjutsu. So in short he wants to be able to use Infinite MS, but would require the techique (Tysukuomi) before hand to be able to use the Infinate MS. Hidan13 (talk) 16:41, October 10, 2009 (UTC)


 * Probably has it ? has it. ~SnapperTo 17:45, October 10, 2009 (UTC)

Because this revert war can go as long as I can make it....
...we're gonna discuss. As of now, we know the requirements to use Susanoo is to first be able to use Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. We've seen Sasuke use Amaterasu and go to town with Susanoo, and we've seen him use a genjutsu that looked exactly like Tsukuyomi against Killer Bee, but he didn't say it's name. So logic tells that Sasuke can indeed use Tsukuyomi. Thoughts, translations to help with this. Ect, ect.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 20:39, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * Talk:Sasuke Uchiha. A similar argument, where it was decided that he can use Tsukuyomi as well--AlienGamer--Talk (contribs)-- 20:47, October 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * We can't dogmatically assume that Sasuke can use Tsukuyomi because he can use the other two MS techniques. For all we know, there's a reason Kishi never stated he used Tsukuyomi. It's possibly the reason Susanoo is imperfect. Tsukuyomi is the only MS technique Sasuke has never been referred to as using, added to the fact that theories stated in the manga have been - more than once - later proven to be false. Take the example I stated earlier; Itachi stated that one must kill their best friend in order to achieve the MS, but Kakashi had no one close to him and achieved it, which strongly suggests that Itachi's - and in effect, Madara's - belief was false (Sasuke's case is still debatable). My point being, we have no surefire concrete basis for undeniably believing that Sasuke has Tsukuyomi. --Xepeyon You Speak, I've Spoken 20:50, October 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * Except by definition of Susanoo, the user must have already known Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. Using what we know, Sasuke must be able to use Tsukuyomi.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 20:53, October 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * Except the statement you're referring to was stated in-universe (meaning it is what the characters believe, not necessarily what's confirmed). By definition, a user must kill their best friend to receive the Mangekyou Sharingan. Remember that? And the last point, Sasuke has still never stated, nor has it been stated by anyone else, in-universe or out, that he can or has ever used Tsukuyomi. Anything more is - by definition - speculation. --Xepeyon You Speak, I've Spoken 20:57, October 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * Wait, you're saying what is stated in the story to be speculation because it has a chance to be changed? Is that your argument? Because that is extremely flimsy at best.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 21:17, October 16, 2009 (UTC)


 * (sigh) No, no, no. I'm saying something that is officially unconfirmed and speculative shouldn't be accepted and stated as fact as it can be changed. --Xepeyon You Speak, I've Spoken 21:20, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * And yet, it is not "officially unconfirmed" and "speculative" because we were told (I believe it was in the databook, because that is what our databook translator said in the discussion AlienGamer posted above) the user of Susanoo must master Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. Therefore, Sasuke using Susanoo means he must, until proven otherwise, use Tsukuyomi.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 21:25, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

Whoa, whoa! Wait a minute: "it is not "officially unconfirmed" and "speculative" because we were told (I believe it was in the databook, because that is what our databook translator said in the discussion AlienGamer posted above) the user of Susanoo must master Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi." If it was stated in a databook, you should have said so sooner. Post a scan of the page as proof, because I read that conversation, and I didn't see one databook reference. --Xepeyon You Speak, I've Spoken 21:31, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * EDIT: Found a link to mangahelpers via ShounenSuki. Read Susanoo, and that was good enough for me. Feel free to add Sasuke's name back. --Xepeyon You Speak, I've Spoken 21:38, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * o.O O.o wha? That's it?--TheUltimate3 (talk) 21:40, October 16, 2009 (UTC)
 * (quote)"The two doujutsu that only those who have activated the "Mangekyou Sharingan" are permitted to use "Amaterasu²," denoting the "light of the material world" and "Tsukuyomi³," symbolising the "darkness of the spiritual world" Only those who have activated the "Mangekyou Sharingan" -the heavenly eyes that see without obstruction the truth of all of creation- are permitted to use these two doujutsu. Dwelling only in those who have grasped both of these technique is the power of a tempestuous god... that is "Susanoo"."(end quote)
 * Yep, that's it. --Xepeyon You Speak, I've Spoken 21:44, October 16, 2009 (UTC)

How do we know it is unique to the Uchiha clan?

ShieldmaidenI live by honor and die like a warrior 13:38, December 11, 2009 (UTC)
 * Because the Mangekyo Sharingan is needed to use it. Jacce | Talk 13:47, December 11, 2009 (UTC)

"Red moon" reference
Just where exactly in the [Black and white] manga was it shown? I saw no such red moon when Itachi used it in part one, and the databook makes no mention of a red moon. If anyone did and insist on keeping that part in article without clarifying it as part of anime [which it is to begin with], I'd like you to specifically reference it in the manga to avoid any further confusion. As you'll see, there is no red moon or even atmoshpere when Itachi demonstrated the jutsu. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/142/17-18/ http://mjv6qw.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pOrc_tko15F8btQWVzTqmYeiNa-48RXDzZuwbQ1i3v7QcevMyA8ZGvvKSD-A9wmR8l_blJvFKZoYEYXV6Pterib635ZKUYl6K/redmoon2.jpg

The area in the manga is completely dark. Listing such as a trait of the jutsu without clarifying it is thus inaccurate as it's not canonical.Wreiad (talk) 12:06, December 24, 2009 (UTC)


 * Being that the manga is black and white kinda does that to color don't you think? The anime is able to show a lot more of things that are limited by the small panels in the manga. Thus far, we've seen in color (in the anime, obviously) and it had the red moon, which caused the introverted colors and what not. But I'll do some rewriting because you made such a long post and I'm sure your gonna bite me if I don't.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 12:53, December 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * I take that back, there is no way to rewrite it without going into a bunch of unnecessary babble because I made my point above.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 12:55, December 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * Tell me, where on that page do you see a moon, let alone a red one?Wreiad (talk) 16:49, December 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * The very pictures you linked. Like I just said, we've seen it in color (gray-scale, as seen in the manga, the red moon to explain the gray-scale we see in the anime) and thus it is mentioned. If you wanna be difficult and shoehorn a "anime only" reference someone in there, be my guest just don't do it in a way that screws with the flow of the article.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 18:10, December 24, 2009 (UTC)
 * The place you chose to add (anime only) suggests that the color inversion is unique to the anime, which it isn't. Tsukuyomi illusions are white lines on a black page instead of the usual black lines on white pages. ~SnapperTo 18:29, December 24, 2009 (UTC)

Clearance: Genjutsu from chapter 478
The genjutsu used by Sasuke in chapter 478 cannot be concluded to be Tsukuyomi because there is no substantial evidence to support that. Let's revisit older chapters and put this into perspective. Sasuke's first use of genjutsu with his Mangekyo Sharingan was in chapter 408, page 3. Here, he easily breaks the will of the Cloud shinobi after Suigetsu failed to do so with his physical prowess, and the cloud shinobi is paralyzed. Let's do recall that Kisame claimed Itachi's genjutsu [Tsukuyomi] was known to break the will of victims [chapter 142, page 9], and Kakashi experienced paralysis [Or fatigue] after it was used. Even Karin knew Sasuke's genjutsu would work. Why? One can therefore make a reasonable assumption that Sasuke's genjutsu from that particular chapter was Tsukuyomi. Moving on to chapter 413 page 9, he does the same thing again, only this time we see the inverted colors, and it's broken. This is important. Let's go back to chapter 388. Here, Sasuke breaks Tsukuyomi. Like Killer Bee after him, Sasuke is fatigued and can barely move for a certain amount of time. Not only that, but Itachi, user of said genjutsu, experiences slight fatigue to the extent where he also collapses and has pain in his eye. When Killer Bee broke Tsukuyomi, Sasuke experienced fatigue to the extent where his reactions were quite slowed [He is hit by a Lariat] and his eye is pained as well. This is important; All the above is missing when Sasuke used his genjutsu on Danzo. It is shown that one shouldn't be able to attack during or after Tsukuyomi's duration, and Sasuke was about to do just that while Danzo was distracted. To summerize: 1) The colors are not inverted. Unlike his prior genjutsu, this one features no inverted colors.

2) Sasuke experiences no fatigue. Unlike his other genjutsu that was broken [That was again, broken], this particular genjutsu caused him no fatigue and he was about to follow it up with an attack.

3) Danzo experiences no fatigue. Sasuke has his eye removed, and he later collapses after the genjutsu is used. Killer Bee is stabbed and collapes. Danzo is burned and nothing happens? It's like how Naruto is hit by several shuriken and choked, and nothing happens to him. Seem familiar?

4) Sasuke's eye is not strained. And the last important one. Both times when Tsukuyomi was broken, the user was holding their eye. Not once in this chapter Sasuke stop to hold his eye.

So who are we kidding here? This was a "normal" genjutsu meant as a distraction, as I especially don't think someone is effectively locked into using Tsukuyomi while they have the Mangekyo activated and can't use other genjutsu; Tsukuyomi shouldn't be the exclusive genjutsu of the Mangekyo Sharingan. Let's also keep in mind what happened after Itachi used genjutsu on Naruto and it was broken. The exact same seems to have occured here. Finally, we can't just blindly take what a character says without looking for the conflicting evidence. Madara for example claims Sasuke's pure hate enabled him to break the cursed seal. Sasuke's thoughts on the other hand, show that his love for Itachi instead fuels him.Wreiad (talk) 19:57, January 15, 2010 (UTC)


 * Your points are explained by Sasuke not being as skilled with Tsukuyomi as Itachi is, which is what Danzo says. Also, Sasuke's hate for Danzo and love for Itachi go hand-in-hand, so that's not conflicting. ~SnapperTo 20:10, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * Or he just used a regular genjutsu? We should show evidence that Sasuke was using Tsukuyomi to put that i. So far, I don't think he has in that particular. I alreay pointed out how Tsukuyomi's inverted colors and how it causes fatigue and eye pain when it's broken, so this has nothing to do with skill and don't ignore that much.Wreiad (talk) 22:00, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
 * The end of chapter 387 and the start of 388 are a Tsukuyomi illusion and the colors don't become inverted until Sasuke starts to break it. Inverted colors are a characteristic, not a requirement. In regards to chapter 413, you are giving too much attention to one panel. Sasuke is not aware that Bee has broken the illusion. He lets his guard down and for that gets Lariat'd. The pain it causes him is also clearly not as bad as what Itachi experienced, so logically he could ignore the discomfort and continue attacking if he wanted to, as he does with Danzo. Again, Danzo says Sasuke's Tsukuyomi is not as sophisticated, which means the penalties of using it would not be nearly as bad as Itachi's. ~SnapperTo 04:27, January 16, 2010 (UTC)


 * Danzo doesn't say that Sasuke's genjutsu is Tsukuyomi, however. I'd say that's a misreading of the line:


 * HisshouBuraiKen: Danzo: I'll commend you for actually trapping me in a [genjutsu]. However... [. . .] Compared to Itachi's Tsukuyomi, where he could alter your perception of time at his whim... You're as far below him as the land is below the sky.


 * There is just no element of the sentence that says—or implies—that it's Tsukuyomi. Bvdan (talk) 17:10, February 20, 2010 (UTC)


 * It is implied by the fact that he's comparing the genjutsu to Itachi's Tsukuyomi, which he wouldn't feel the need to do if he was talking about any other genjutsu, as a genjutsu that can alter the perception of time has never been shown other then Tsukuyomi, thus it wouldn't be an insult to go "That generic genjutsu you just used is less powerful then a genjutsu which uses an immense amount of chakra, is a kekkei genkai, and screws over your eyesight, from a master of genjutsu." Now would it? 81.131.231.87 (talk) 13:27, March 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * You're saying that Danzo wouldn't compare Tsukuyomi to a generic genjutsu because the stronger one is obvious, but Danzo essentially said that Itachi's Tsukuyomi is obviously stronger than the genjutsu Sasuke used. There's a hole in that.   JQuinn (talk) 07:04, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

maybe all of MS jutsus are meant to be practiced and master each with a level increasing every time a the user practice it or undergoes emotional distressed--200.59.28.160 (talk) 04:58, March 21, 2010 (UTC)eternaluchiha95

You all have very good points on why Sasuke's genjutsu isn't Tsukuyomi, but Madara has implied that he does have it. Sasuke says, during the Kage Summit, that the third eye power Susanoo is used when one has two Mangekyo, and later, Madara elaborates by saying one must have awakened Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi to use Susanoo. Since Sasuke can use Susanoo, we can then confirm that he too can use Tsukuyomi. ~ NOTASTAFF Ryun Uchiha (Ten Tailed Fox, Getsueikirite-taichou) (talk) 16:03, March 22, 2010 (UTC)

He wasn't arguing that Sasuke didn't have Tsukuyomi but rather that he didn't use it when he was fighting Danzo. It seemed like Danzo was comparing Sasuke to Itachi in Genjutsu skill. As he stated he compared Sasuke's "Genjutsu" to Itachi's "Tsukuyomi". Using basic English knowledge this does not indicate at all that Sasuke uses Tsukuyomi but rather that he used a genjutsu that wasn't on par with Tsukuyomi.--74.233.173.126 (talk) 22:41, March 27, 2010 (UTC) Danzo just said "You'r genjutsu's nice but compared to Itachi's tsukoyomi it is nothing"

User: Madara?
If mAdara plans on making an infinite tsukuyomi, why isn't he listed?
 * Because wanting to use doesn't mean he can use. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:30, October 16, 2010 (UTC)
 * He can use it though. He has the Mangekyo Sharingan. He'll be able to use an Infinite Tsukuyomi after he gets the Ten-Tailed beast, however, he should have the normal one.--NaruHina fan (talk) 20:44, March 24, 2011 (UTC)
 * Having a Mangekyo Sharingan doesn't automatically make him a user, or else Kakashi would be listed too. The wiki also tries to avoid listing things that characters haven't used yet, such as the various Rinnegan jutsu for Madara. ~SnapperTo 22:37, March 24, 2011 (UTC)

how to defeat Tsukuyomi?
i have one question in naruto data book 2, it was said that the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors , and the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness. http://mangahelpers.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1304245&postcount=1 and it was also said in fan book 2 that sarutobi hiruzen in his prime could defeat   mangekyou sharingan and EMs teqniques http://forums.saiyanisland.com/showpost.php?p=724345&postcount=1 then is that means that it should be add to Tsukuyomi page ? or i got the wrong idea ?

Sasuke breaking Tsukuyomi?
In the episode "Truth" (I don't really read manga) Madara said that Sasuke didn't see anything true about Itachi, nor did he break any of his genjutsu. So, does that mean he can't break Tsukuyomi?
 * I think Madara was using a metaphor. Itachi pretended to wanting Sasuke's eyes and that he was a criminal, while he in reality wanted to save his brother and really was an infiltrator and a hero. Itachi's acting skills was like a genjutsu, one that Sasuke never managed to break. Also, sign your posts with ~ . Jacce | Talk | Contributions 13:17, July 1, 2011 (UTC)

There are 5 reasons Sasuke and no one else could break out of Itachi's Tsukyomi: 1. Sasuke has a sharingan (So does Kakshi but that did no good) 2. Sasuke is an immediate blood relative (that rules out a lot of the ninja world) 3. Itachi was weak due to his illness 4. Itachi did not intend to win (for all we know, Sasuke may have never broken out in the first place. Maybe itachi let him out and made it seem like Sasuke did it on his own.) 5. Plot device 6.

Unbreakable?
Alright, let me get something straight, once and for all. Acording to Kakashi, Itachi and a particular Databook, if a non-Sharingan user is caught in Itachi's Tsukuyomi, he is as good as a drooling vegetable, is that correct? 77.85.106.97 (talk) 19:26, July 4, 2011 (UTC)

How much proof is there that TObi can use it?
PLease I want to be sure.
 * Apart from the fact that he said he was going to cast an infinite version of it on the world, not a lot.--Cerez365™Hyuga Symbol.svg 14:00, October 7, 2011 (UTC)

Wait a minute...
I might not exist in this wiki, but I noticed something that bugs me. How is the Shield of Black Flames a combination of Tsukuyomi and Susanoo? It says in the "Derived Jutsu" part of the infobox that the Shield of Black Flames is a derived jutsu of the Susanoo and Tsukuyomi. I know that to awaken Susanoo you need the Tsukuyomi, but that doesn't mean that the Tsukuyomi itself is used in the Shield of Black Flames. I won't edit that myself in case you know something that I don't and I have it wrong. Also, on the SoBF page, Tsukuyomi is listed as a parent jutsu. (I am acting dumb. I know it's just an error. Please, don't think I'm dumb.) Max042599 (talk) 23:06, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

The eye that possesses Tsukuyomi is used to shape manipulate the flames (Blaze Release) onto Susanoo. Skitts (talk) 23:12, November 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict x3) Your explanation was a bit speculative Skitts. Max, that's just a concept to show which technique requires which other technique. Usually, a derived technique is just a variation of the original, but in this case, it's different. Susanoo itself doesn't use Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, but awakening and being able to use them is required to use Susanno, so Tsukuyomi is listed as a grandparent technique to all techniques which require Susanoo. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:15, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

@Omni ? Isn't that exactly what C said when he questioned if Sasuke's was even more skilled with Amaterasu than Itachi? Skitts (talk) 23:17, November 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * Just because the manipulation comes from the same eye, it doesn't mean it's Tsukuyomi necessarily. I'd say that it would come from something that is broader than Tsukuyomi, which would be Yin Release, assuming it will turn out to be present in all genjutsu. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:21, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

But I didn't say Tsukuyomi was used to manipulate it. o.O Skitts (talk) 23:34, November 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * I derped, I read that the left eye used Tsukuyomi to manipulate the flames, by bad. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:47, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

counter tsukuyomi
i want to know the powers or ninja who can defeat tsukuyomi. is it limited to only skilled uchiha with shringan or one of its evolution ( mangekyou, eternal mangekyou , rinnegan ) ? or skilled ninja like hokages, kages and akatsuki members could stand a chance ? , because i did not get it from 2nd databook. please answer me and not deleting my post !--41.233.23.50 (talk) 14:34, December 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * This isn't a forum.--Cerez365™Hyuga Symbol.svg:47, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

i know and i did not say it is, but i think it is said in 2nd data book that sharingan user and skilled ninja could break it , so i want to know .--41.233.23.50 (talk) 15:05, December 28, 2011 (UTC) and i read in saiyanisland translation for 2nd fanbook also that sarutobi hiruzen can counter every jutsu in konoha like mangekyou nd eternal mangekyou sharingan jutsu, so because i trust this wiki i want to know is that true ? , and if it is, so why it was not added to the page ?--41.233.23.50 (talk) 15:05, December 28, 2011 (UTC)
 * Countering doesn't necessarily means defeating, I think. Sasuke was able to break Tsukuyomi with just a Sharigan. Hiruzen is already listed as knowing about all the techniques from Konoha, that's relevant to his article, there's no point in going in all technique articles used by Konoha nin and adding that Hiruzen knew how to counter it. Danzo broke through Sasuke's Mangekyo genjutsu didn't he? Despite the discussions on whether it was indeed Tsukuyomi or not, it was a MS genjutsu, and he broke through it, no reason to think Hiruzen wouldn't be able to do it as well. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:36, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

i got it. so the only power is known untill now to break it is a skilled uchiha with a sharingan, but there are many methods to counter it like not make a direct contact with eyes like what guy did before. but untill now only a skilled sharingan user is needed to break it. ok i got it. thank you very much for answering my question and sorry if my words and punctuation was not good !--41.232.149.113 (talk) 21:56, December 28, 2011 (UTC)

Bloody hand
During the fight against Sasuke, when Itachi used this technique, the blood that got on his hands when he removed Sasuke's eye remained even after the genjutsu wore off, the same thing about the eyeball he took out (though that could be wrong). Shouldn't this be noted, it bears resemblance to the fact that genjutsu is presumed to be connected with Yin Release and the Second Mizukage's genjutsu after-effects may be similar to Tsukuyomi. 119.154.70.207 (talk) 15:02, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

What are you trying to say ? --Elveonora (talk) 15:18, February 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * *sighs* Just wondering if every strong and powerful genjutsu can have effects on the real world, and noting that the blood in the genjutsu came to life. 119.154.70.207 (talk) 15:27, February 20, 2012 (UTC)


 * Genjutsu is the manipulation of the brain through the manipulation of chakra flow. If the brain thinks something is happening to you then that becomes your reality. When the genjutsu is broken the brain regains normal function. But in cases when the genjutsu is extremely powerful(tsukuyomi for example) the brain would be in shock due to the stress that the genjutsu have caused. The genjutsu becomes the brain's reality as long as it's caught in the technique, but in the end, genjutsu is all illusionary. There is no known user who could turn illusion to reality. As for your first comment, there was no sign of blood on any of Itachi's hands after Sasuke dispelled his Tsukuyomi. Blood eventually got on his hands, but that's when Sasuke wounded him with the rigged Fuma shuriken and when he started coughing blood due to his condition.YonbiAzai (talk) 16:50, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

The only genjuts that affects reality is Izanagi --Elveonora (talk) 18:47, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

Kurama clan can turn genjutsu into reality but the blood on the hand after the genjutsu wore off is likely a mistake by the anime designers --Zenryoku90 (talk) 18:54, February 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Kurama clan also isn't canon. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:01, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

So filler anime isnt considered cannon? if not then my bad i was unaware, i was under the presumption anything related to the anime or manga be it filler or not was classified as cannon. --Zenryoku90 (talk) 21:21, February 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * We list anime-only content in articles, but they're not considered canon. We list them because loads of people know Naruto only from the anime. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:45, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

Ahrite makes sense, cheers for clearing it up for me --Zenryoku90 (talk) 22:10, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

Something in anime-fillers may be canon though, if it uses manga as basics. Like Tobi while talking about his Moon Eye plan, the hosts and their tailed beasts were shown and as that was based off manga material it's canon. --Elveonora (talk) 22:52, February 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Anime simply shifts when something happens sometimes, and besides, they simply expanded on what the manga showed. When Tobi told that story in the manga, you see images of the tailed beasts in the background. Anime simply made it more explicit. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:21, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

That's what I meant, the "filling" is sometimes based on manga ... but the arcs themselves are non-canon, some are good though :) Also some are tricky like the 3tails one, the arc itself has expanded the capture from as shown in manga thus canon but the characters like Guren etc. are not. --Elveonora (talk) 23:24, February 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * The subject was canon, but just that, as the arc completely deviates from the manga. Enough with the forum talk. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:30, February 20, 2012 (UTC)

Sasuke CAN'T use Tsukuyomi: Proof
Read this guy's posts: http://www.narutoforums.com/showthread.php?t=684165
 * We are not here to discuss forums. Sasuke used Tsukoyomi on Zetsu IIRC. The forum is 2 years ago as well. —IndxcvNovelist (Talk to Me) 12:05, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Someone's random speculation is null and void here. --Speysider (Talk Page) 12:24, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

Sasuke used simple Sharingan genjutsu on Zetsu. And both of you failed to understand what this guy says, if you even bothered to read it. I didn't post it to discuss. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 12:51, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Sasuke's use of Tsukuyomi as seen being used on Danzo. Tobi himself stated that Sasuke's version was nowhere near as powerful as Itachi's etc…--Cerez 365 ™Hyuga Symbol.svg(talk) 12:55, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter what that guy said, the databooks are a more reliable source of info than any random person on the internet, and the databook says that Sasuke has to be able to use Tsukuyomi to use Susanoo. TricksterKing (talk) 12:58, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

No. The databook says that for Itachi. The databook also says that Susanoo comes with Totsuka no Tsuruki & Yata no Kagami. Sasuke has none of those. The databook was released before Sasuke awakened the Susanoo. Danzo compared Sasuke's genjutsu with Itachi's Tsukuyomi. No one ever called Sasuke's genjutsu as Tsukuyomi. Tsukuyomi gives the user the power to control space & time in the victim's mind according to the manga & databook. Sasuke has NEVER done this. Seriously, did you bothered to read this random's guy post?Patsoumas1995 (talk) 13:18, April 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * You expect us to take the words and beliefs of some completely random person who has never made any contributions to the making of Naruto over the official databooks? --Speysider (Talk Page) 13:20, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

I ask again: Did you read it? He is not saying his opinion, for fucks sake. He is analizing facts. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 13:24, April 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm now going to ignore you because there is no reason whatsoever to curse because you aren't getting your own way. --Speysider (Talk Page) 13:25, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * It's better that way. You obviously didn't read the post, which goes by everything the databooks & manga say, while you think it's just a guy saying his opinion. Seriously, This wiki is the best I've seen. The only think that goes wrong is the Susanoo "ingredients". Don't you get that the databook reffers to Itachi only? Sasuke gives a different explanation in the manga later. It's the only category that this wiki fails. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 13:37, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * You may be righy, or you may be not. But in this wiki, we use facts. And speculations from a random person, no matter how accurate or logical they may be, aren't facts. If we get PROOF, and with proof I mean a STATEMENT, not analyzing facts, that Sasuke can't use Tsukuyomi, then we'll accept it.--Kind-Hearted-One (talk) 13:42, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

Is there any statement that Sasuke used Tsukuyomi? And by extension Madara using Amaterasu & Tsukuyomi? Patsoumas1995 (talk) 13:46, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

By the way, Itachi got those mythical items and equipped his Susanoo with it, that was said from the manga. I'm not sure what databook you're reading, but it doesn't sound like it was published by Masashi Kishimoto. This conversation is moot especially since, like I said, Tobi said he used it, albeit on a weaker scale. CHAPTER 480, PAGES 4-5 (unless it's an incorrect translation) --Cerez 365 ™(talk) 13:52, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

"Itachi got those mythical items and equipped his Susanoo with it" Source?
 * "Tobi said he used it, albeit on a weaker scale" No, he said that Sasuke's genjutsu is weaker compared to Itachi's Tsukuyomi.Patsoumas1995 (talk) 13:57, April 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * About Itachi. They said that Orochimaru searched for the Totsuka Sword all his life. This fact alone indicates that the item was well known, and that it was something that WASN'T created when Itachi used Susanoo for the first time or something like that.--Kind-Hearted-One (talk) 14:16, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

Sasuke used Tsukuyomi on Killer B at least--Elveonora (talk) 14:15, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Not only he didn't call it Tsukuyomi, but Killer B broke the genjutsu that can only be broken by a Sharingan of a relative? -_- Patsoumas1995 (talk) 14:18, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Now who's the one who doesn't read? The Hachibi broke it for him.--Kind-Hearted-One (talk) 14:20, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * It doesn't matter if it was Hachibi, the Hachibi definitely isn't Sasuke's relative with Sharingan. The Hachibi used Genjutsu Dissipation, and it's confirmed that the Tsukuyomi can't be broken like that. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 14:25, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * All Genjutsu are broken the same way: chakra dissipation. The only special thing the Tsukuyomi has is that, if you don't have a Sharingan, you don't get the chance to do it, because you don't have the time before the Genjutsu paralyzes you.--Kind-Hearted-One (talk) 14:30, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * No. Read Chapter 257, pages 6-7 Patsoumas1995 (talk) 14:43, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

It's also better you don't read what was said in isolation. Read what Danzo says in chapter 478, page 8. That is what Tobi was responding to.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 14:22, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

Danzo says the same thing Tobi says: he compares Sasuke's genjutsu with Itachi's Tsukuyomi. But what is this that Danzo says in chapter 478, page 8?Patsoumas1995 (talk) 14:26, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

On Killer B it was Tsukuyomi, on Zetsu it also was Tsukuyomi .. that's for sure. Likely on Danzo as well ... Sasuke's version is just weaker--Elveonora (talk) 14:31, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Based on? When did Sasuke trap any of those in a genjutsu world?Patsoumas1995 (talk) 14:34, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Who said that Tsukuyomi had that specific effect? Maybe it was just the illusion that Itachi decided to create, and not the standard effect.--Kind-Hearted-One (talk) 14:36, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * The 2nd Databook (http://www.narutoforums.com/showpost.php?p=22980039&postcount=195) "Somebody caught into the Tsukuyomi find themselves into a strange world of infinity, their fate entirely lying inside the caster's hands."
 * Trying to use literary language to prove something? We all know how the databooks are written, with as much "fluff" as possible to make the things sound cooler.--Kind-Hearted-One (talk) 14:42, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Now that's nonsense. Why isn't the first part I quotes literal? Can you prove that Sasuke's Sharingan genjutsus are Tsukuyomi? Patsoumas1995 (talk) 14:46, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Both Danzo and Tobi said it. It's your choice, to believe that they weren't talking about Tsukuyomi, but facts are: right now, we know three things: 1-Sasuke can use Susanoo. 2-Susanoo has been described by the author himself to require Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. 3-Sasuke has already been referenced to use Tsukuyomi TWICE. As I said before, we have facts. You only have speculation.--Kind-Hearted-One (talk) 14:50, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

1-True 2-And later the author himself said through Sasuke's mouth in the manga that Susanoo requires the 2 Mangekyo powers, which are Amaterasu & Enton for Sasuke. 3-But Sasuke's genjutsu was NEVER named as Tsukuyomi! All the supposed uses are speculations with no real proof! Patsoumas1995 (talk) 14:55, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Honey. You have stepped from the realm of simply analyzing facts to strictly making things up. WHO in the world said that Sasuke's secondary Mangekyo power is Enton? Apart from your own, wild imagination? As far as I know, Enton simply comes from the fact that Sasuke is more skilled than Itachi with Amaterasu, therefore being able to manipulate it's shape.--Kind-Hearted-One (talk) 14:58, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Honey. C said that Enton comes from his left eye, while Amaterasu comes from his right eye. Chapter 464, page 7.Patsoumas1995 (talk) 15:04, April 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * Ok, sweetie, I'm going to put it very easy for you. You believe that Sasuke can't use Tsukuyomi, and that his second Mangekyo power is Enton (about which we have NOT enough information to classify it as anything else than a derivation from Amaterasu). Ok. You can have your own oppinions, that is very nice and we respect it. But we are not going to add your speculations here. Unless you can bring SPECIFIC proof about those two claims (Sasuke's inability to use Tsukuyomi, and Enton's status as his second Mangekyo power), we are not adding anything. And with proof, I mean something else apart from quotes which can be interpreted in EITHER way. And seriously, don't try to continue with this, because we are not changing anything if you don't have that proof.--Kind-Hearted-One (talk) 15:08, April 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * Do you have specific proof for Sasuke's ability to use Tsukuyomi? I gave my proof on Enton. Chapter 464, page 7. Check it, and explain me why this doesn't count. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 15:13, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

We are not continuing this discussion. We already have a databook explanation that says that Susanoo requires both Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. Sasuke can use Susanoo. 2+2=4. Unless you can prove that's not true, you have no point here. And about your proof, C just said that he uses Amaterasu through is right eye, and manipulate it with his left. I think I missed the part in which that translates to: Enton is Sasuke's second Mangekyo power. Oh wait, I think I get it. You have magical mind reading powers, and you can know what the author was referring to when writing those lines, right?--Kind-Hearted-One (talk) 15:23, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Wasn't Enton the flame manipulation? Patsoumas1995 (talk) 15:28, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * We barely know anything about Enton.--Kind-Hearted-One (talk) 15:31, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Anyway, I was wrong on this. By Enton, I ment the flame control. Flame control is the other power. I'm I wrong on this? If yes, why? Patsoumas1995 (talk) 15:34, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

@Patsoumas1995 All you are doing is randomly speculating and making up all sorts of stuff that is pure nonsense. If your not going to listen to anything we post, we'll just stop replying to this discussion. It's spamming my mailbox unnecessarily. --Speysider (Talk Page) 15:00, April 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * You see, I actually thought that he had kind of a point (about neither Danzo nor Tobi specifically stating that Sasuke used Tsukuyomi), but when he decided all on his own that Sasuke's second Mangekyo power was Enton, I lost all faith in his common sense.--Kind-Hearted-One (talk) 15:02, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

I love you guys--Elveonora (talk) 15:57, April 14, 2012 (UTC)

It just got real up in here //Filipinoboy97

Sasuke's mastery of Tsukuyomi
"Sasuke can also perform Tsukuyomi with his right eye, though his illusion is considered inferior to Itachi's Tsukuyomi since it does not alter the opponent's perception of time indicating he has yet to master it"

How can he not have 'mastered' it when one clearly needs to master this jutsu alongside Amaterasu to achieve Susanoo. As per se the databook.

I suspect this has come about due to Danzo's comment: Danzo compared Sasuke's Genjutsu and Tsukuyomi. The former doesn't manipulate the opponent's perception of time.

If Tobi's quote has anything to do with it, then be wary that he only mentioned the 'staying power' of the illusion as opposed to how it alters the perception of time.

Under the 'presumably' tag you can add Sasuke used Tsukuyomi on a Kumogakure shinobi to 'control' him to reveal Killer B's location. Similar to what Itachi wanted to do to Kabuto using the same jutsu. That said the entry of Tsukuyomi needs to be updated because it doesn't include the ability to 'control' the opponent as Itachi said it does.

--Jingo12 (talk) 09:08, May 17, 2012 (UTC)

Limited Tsukuyomi
How are we going to reference it? From what I understand on what has been released about the movie, Tobi actually cast the, on Naruto and Sakura. Since we're not splitting the infinite variation, I don't think we'd split the limited one as well. This would mean listing Tobi as a user of Tsukuyomi, even if with a movie only tag, but that would put us in the awkward position of having to consider Tobi an MS user, at least in the movie-only capacity. For now, to avoid greater confusion and revert warring, which would only add to the editing chaos that is sure to come by chapter 600 or whenever Tobi loses the mask, I think Tobi should be mentioned in the page, maybe in a trivia section, but not to be actually listed in the infobox for now. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:05, August 7, 2012 (UTC)

we should mention both "limited" and "infinite" Tsukuyomis in a sub-section of Tsukuyomi page + trivia about Tobi MS shit.--Elveonora (talk) 17:41, August 7, 2012 (UTC)

So?--Elveonora (talk) 19:52, August 10, 2012 (UTC)

The latest chapter confirmed Tobi can use MS. Since his plan involves casting a large-scale version of Tsukuyomi, he should know how to use the regular version. -- The Goblin  12:01, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

I agree, we should add Tsukuyomi to his infobox... but again, how Kakashi can't use it? O_O--Elveonora (talk) 12:11, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

Ok I'm just going to state what should be pretty obvious. I'm pretty certain that the genjutsu he used on Sakura & Naruto was done with his regular Sharingan. On top of that, the "Tsukuyomi" Madara used on Obito was done with a fully matured Sharingan that did not have Mangekyo Sharingan. Not to say what should be obvious, but what if Infinite Tsukuyomi is really just Genjutsu: Sharingan? So either Tsukuyomi is not a Mangekyo Sharingan technique, OR they are using the regular Sharingan Genjutsu or an enhanced version of it. 71.237.133.173 (talk) 20:55, December 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * The genjutsu Madara used on Obito was never stated, nor implied to be Tsukuyomi to begin with. And Obito used Kamui through much of Part 2 of the manga without us actually seeing the Mangekyo design in his eyes, and since I don't think we see that in the movie either, still right to say he used Tsukuyomi in the movie. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:14, December 10, 2012 (UTC)

Limited Tsukuyomi 2
I've seen Limited Tsukuyomi performed... It isnt anything like the normal Tsukuyomi. Not at all. He didn't even cast it with his eyes. Also, it's speculation to assume that Obito is using Tsukuyomi. When Madara cast his version of Limited Tsukuyomi on obito, to give him an example of the technique, he used the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path with a regular Sharingan, a non-Mangekyou Sharingan. We also now know the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path is the body of the Ten-Tails.

I think we should create a new page for Infinite Tsukuyomi and Limited Tsukuyomi using what we actually know now. In both depiction and usage of both techniques, they used a regular 3 Tomoe and not the actual Tsukuyomi at that. J/s. Skarrj (talk) 06:09, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

He used his eyes, notice the tomoe reflection on the crystal ball, also we know he has a MS. For Madara, what he did back there also appears to have been Limited Tsukuyomi, I wanted to make a topic on this long ago, thanks for a reminder. Also you are missing a little thing, MS techniques were seen performed with a regular Sharingan (Obito spamming Kamui seemingly with 3 tomoe, Susanoo etc.), not to mention it has been stated that the eye is nothing but a tool, the actual power resides within the user. Special chakra within an Uchiha's brain affects the optic nerve and changes the eye, thus even with an eye replaced, the mangekyou power should still be there. EDIT: but yes, both limited and infinite tsukuyomi should have a separate article from tsukuyomi, a little speculation, but I think LS and IS are yin-yang release versions of Tsukuyomi just as Blaze Release is seemingly yin-yang release version of Amaterasu--Elveonora (talk) 14:56, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

I still don't think what Madara did to Obito counts as a limited Tsukuyomi. What he did to Obito can very reasonably be achieved with Genjutsu: Sharingan, not to mention Madara did not have MS at that point, so in no way that would be a Tsukuyomi. And regarding the chakra, if it was as simple as putting the special chakra to the eyes, they could simply use someone who awakened the MS transplant eyes over and over with other Uchiha so a significant number of them had MS. Heck, just have one of them flow their chakra through an another Uchiha. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:42, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

If they don't feel loss of a close loved one, their brains produce not such chakra, thus transplanting a MS eye into a non-MS Uchiha would grant him those powers only for as long as the eyes are in his sockets. Also back on topic, do you have something against creating one/two articles for this matrix/inception version of Tsukuyomi?--Elveonora (talk) 18:36, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Everyone thought it was pointless to create an Infinite Tsukuyomi article, and when the name for the Limited Tsukuyomi came along, everyone thought the same. I don't oppose the creation, I just find it unnecessary, if not a bit redundant, since we know that in Tsukuyomi, the user can control everything. Only thing that seems to change between regular, limited and infinite is range and potency. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:53, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Not just that, Tsukuyomi is nothing but illusion while limited/infinite actually trap people in fake world--Elveonora (talk) 21:26, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Do you really think that they were actually transported somewhere else? This is more like part 1 filler Kurama clan arc genjutsu than actual alternate reality. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:36, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

I thought you saw the movie, they were sucked into the crystal ball. What confirms the dimension being "real" in a sense is Naruto keeping AU Sakura father's hokage cloak for a brief moment and AU Sakura entering "the real world" in anime. That's what differentiate the two tsukuyomi, one is an illusion that's completely controlled by it's user, the latter is the same just thoughts actually becoming real, wouldn't be the first thing, Izanagi does something similar--Elveonora (talk) 21:41, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

All the show is the crystal ball glowing when they see the moon through it. Nothing indicates them being sucked into it. And when they break out of the genjutsu world, the ball is just shown breaking. When they come to it, they're simply staring, as expected of someone who's trapped in genjutsu. No indication of them being released from another dimension. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:06, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Read the above again please, also the Kunai he threw at him broke the crystal ball, not to mention Obito wanted to steal Kurama from him within the illusion--Elveonora (talk) 22:19, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Of course they'd see Obito trying to steal Kurama within the illusion, Obito cast the illusion. Pretty much the whole scene is seen from the perspective of those inside the genjutsu. Relatively speaking, the audience is in the genjutsu. Besides, there's no sign of broken crystal once they come out of it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:41, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

So you want to tell me Obito cast a genjutsu that made it possible for Naruto to escape from it? Yes, that's why he showed disappointment. And are you saying that the Obito within the genjutsu wasn't real? Then we interpret the movie quite differently--Elveonora (talk) 23:48, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

The Genjutsu used by Obito was a prototype, and Obito didn't have perfect control of it, so there was an escape for Naruto and Sakura, he didn't try to have them leave or purposly create a loop hole to get out, it was just because it was a prototype that it had such a weakness. And Obito was watching the entire genjutsu, he was in it but it was still a genjutsu. what does him being in it have to do with him not being real? Omni never said that Obito wasn't real, he just tried to steal the Kyubi using the genjutsu.... besides, Naruto and Sakura were also in the genjutsu and they were real, it probably used the same principles as Izanagi or creation of all things to create a genjutsu world that seemed extremely real and gives you your hearts desire while the jutsu is being cast.....--Deathmailrock (talk) 09:07, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

Madara limited Tsukuyomi
After re-reading chapter 606, it seems to me quite certain that what Madara did to Obito was that technique. He said that the same thing only has to be cast onto everyone using the moon--Elveonora (talk) 23:47, April 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * Couldn't be. Tsukuyomi is a MS technique. Madara's MS was in Nagato's eye socket as Rinnegan. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:46, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

And I'm well aware of that, but the dialogue suggests as such. He says that with Ten-Tails (then Gedo's) power he can create the world as he wants it and only has to use moon as the medium instead of his eyes to put everyone into it.--Elveonora (talk) 13:40, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

Tobi
I know we see him performing it only in the movie but if he mentions it in both anime and manga tie-ins, should'n he be listed as a user also for those media?--LeafShinobi (talk) 21:38, May 4, 2013 (UTC)

It's kinda complicated, road to ninja got that manga one shot (and manga is canon, right? lol) and also animation of it through the latest episode and road to sakura episode makes the movie seemingly anime-level canon, that brings question if Obito used the "Tsukuyomi" canonically or not.--Elveonora (talk) 10:11, May 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * I wouldn't think a one shot would count as canon @-@ I say leave it as is with saying movie only. Also, anime adds a lot of things that weren't canon so I doubt that should even factor in lol 173.189.2.172 (talk) 11:55, May 5, 2013 (UTC)

separate article for limited/infinite tsukuyomi decision
The reasonings are as follows:
 * If it were the same, then in order for Obito to use it in canon, which he of course plans to, it would have made him a user of Tsukuyomi, and as such the "movie only" label as is would be wrong. The likelihood of him having Kamui in both eyes but Tsukuyomi in one or each as well is there, but nothing suggests that.
 * Besides similar name and moon thematic and being "illusions" their workings and effects differ quite enough. Also this one can be reflected onto a surface to project it everywhere.
 * Tsukuyomi is an ordinary genjutsu (by definition) limited and infinite ones literary transport people into a new dimension
 * "illusionary people" can cross the words as well, like AU Sakura did
 * All in all, this technique and it's prototype version are likely to be related to yin-yang release rather than just yin release--Elveonora (talk) 20:30, August 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree with Elve here on all but the last part, but only because that's speculation; not because I actually think he's wrong. I've always thought Mugen Tsukuyomi deserved its own article, just in the same manner that Wind Release: Rasengan and Wind Release: Rasenshuriken need their own. Sure, MT is a vastly more powerful version of the original, but it clearly has some noticeable differences from the original, and its been named. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 20:34, August 16, 2013 (UTC)


 * Obito isn't the only one who is apart of the plan. Madara was suppose to be revived for the plan as well and there is nothing saying he couldn't just use Tsukiyomi (I know I'm dodging the question but it's the only thing I have right now)
 * We've never seen anyone use a genjutsu by reflecting it off a surface so we don't know if one could or could not.


 * It's not transporting people into a new dimension. They're using it to put people into an illusionary world. It's basically like having everyone hypnotized forever.
 * Is AU Sakura suppose to be the one from Road to Ninja? If so, she already knew it was fake and I guess that allowed her to do so? I haven't seen the movie so this is just me guessing
 * Is there anything pointing to it being yin-yang release right now? If not then we don't know until they use it.
 * While I don't oppose making a new article (I mean, we have tons of articles for elemental skills that are just upgrades) I wanted to point out some problems with what you said. Joshbl56  20:40, August 16, 2013 (UTC)

@TTF, thank you for support. For the last point, it stems from genjutsu having been stated to be yin release and just messing one's brain, while the only known genjutsu which is "real" (Izanagi) is yin-yang instead. @Josh, watch the movie first :)--Elveonora (talk) 20:54, August 16, 2013 (UTC)
 * I would like us to see MT in action before actually making an article for it. I fully expect that Obito or Madara will in fact succeed in casting it at some point, with Naruto leading everyone in managing to break it, in a very cliched and formulaic manner. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:54, August 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * Right, I'm not in a hurry, it can wait. Even tho I doubt they will succeed to cast it, that would mean game over for good. But, it surely will be elaborated upon soon--Elveonora (talk) 18:03, August 18, 2013 (UTC)


 * But we have already seen Limited Tsukuyomi in action, and it is very different from the normal Tsukuyomi. And we know that Infinite Tsukuyomi is Limited Tsukuyomi, but in a much greater scale, and with the user having complete control of the "new world". I don't get why Odama Rasengan can have its own article, while Limited & Infinite Tsukuyomi can't. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 19:02, September 1, 2013 (UTC)


 * We don't know enough about Infinite, but can't Limited have a page, since we know how it functions? At least that would separate the non-canon movie material from the canon technique page and make it so Obito isn't listed as a Tsukuyomi user.--BeyondRed (talk) 19:17, September 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Heck, I don't think that even Madara & Sasuke should be listed as users, since they've never used it. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 22:57, September 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Point of Clarification: Both of them are listed because as per the requirement of Susanoo, both Amatesaru and Tsukuyomi have to be unlocked. So even if we haven't seen them use it, they both have to have it to use Susanoo.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 23:26, September 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yeah I know... even though Sasuke said later that one has to unlock the ability of each eye, which for Sasuke is Amaterasu & Enton: Kagutsuchi... But let's not get into that again, and let's wait for a new databook to clear things up. Still, I don't understand why we have 2 seperate articles, for example, Rasengan & Odama Rasengan, while we have Tsukuyomi, Limited Tsukuyomi, and Infinite Tsukuyomi in the same article, while we have seen the first 2, and we know almost exactly what the 3rd one does. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 19:13, September 2, 2013 (UTC)

I believe we should remove Obito as a movie-only user of Tsukuyomi tho. There's no evidence for or against it and limited/infinite tsukuyomi having enough in common. And if they do, that would mean that Obito is a canonical user of Tsukuyomi as well, since pulling off Moon Eye Plan wouldn't be possible otherwise, unless he plants to use eyes of someone else. Not to mention we don't even know if limited/infinite tsukuyomi requires Mangekyou Sharingan or can be done with 3 tomoe for example.--Elveonora (talk) 11:03, September 2, 2013 (UTC)

Now it was revealed how the the infinite Tsukuyomi will be cast, I think we should re-discuss if create an article for it Adept-eX (talk) 13:01, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

Not to mention it would appear the user will be the tree itself--Elveonora (talk) 20:59, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

Mugen Tsukuyomi
According to what Madara said in the related chapter and this week's episode, his tabula rasa Genjutsu is in fact Mugen Tsukuyomi. I suggest that we create a jutsu article for it, too. Or was is already decided not to do that? Seelentau 愛議 12:56, January 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Told them the same thing, shrugs.--Elveonora (talk) 21:19, January 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Guys... srsly guys... opinions pls. Seelentau 愛議 09:14, February 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Some of it was touched on in the discussion below, but I do think it warrants Mugen Tsukuyomi having it's own article. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 10:31, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

"While connected to the degraded body of Shinju, using its power, grandpa Madara could temporarily make himself appear hot again" And yes, Mugen Tsukuyomi finally needs its own article, fixing a few misunderstandings: Should be all--Elveonora (talk) 11:09, February 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * It ain't a Mangekyou Sharingan technique. Obito was meant to cast it, yet his only technique is Kamui (so we either consider Obito a canonical Tsukuyomi user or it isn't related to MS's Tsukuyomi besides the name at all) The user doesn't actually use his own eyes to cast the world-scale version, the Shinju copy does once it blooms and its eye is "Sharinnegan" so if we classify it as doujutsu, then both Sharingan and Rinnegan or we make an article/redirect for the Shinju's eye.
 * So if you want to be technical, it's a Tailed Beast Skill.
 * It's not an ordinary genjutsu, those trapped aren't under its control, but inside of it.
 * It's actually possible to die within.

Are we going to have one for the Limited Tsukuyomi as well, or is it going to be a sub-section in the Infinite Tsukuyomi article? I rather it be a sub-section. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:27, February 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Same technique, so one article.--Elveonora (talk) 16:36, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

About the Tsukuyomi & Mugen Tsukuyomi
Why does it say that Obito will project his Mangekyou Sharingan to the moon to use it, while he only says he will project his eye, and we actually see Juubi's eye in the moon (and this was what was going to be projected, had the flower bloomed, and it was also technically his eye as well when he was the jinchuriki)?

And also, why is Sasuke stated to have a weaker Tsukuyomi when we don't have any proof that he ever used it? (Not saying why he is listed as a user) Patsoumas1995 (talk) 18:36, January 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * Tobi said he would project his eye (we know it has to be a Mangekyo because only a Mangekyo can use Tsukuyomi) from the moon. Because being the Ten-Tails' jinchuriki makes the flower eye his eye, it stands to reason that he can active his Sharingan instead of the Ten-Tails' Rinnesharigan and do the Infinite Tsukuyomi.
 * And Danzo has said that Sasuke's Tsukuyomi is weaker than Itachi's.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:47, January 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * But what we actually through Obito's & Madara's tales is the Juubi's eye projected in the moon, not a Mangekyou Sharingan. Even the crystal ball that casts the Limited Tsukuyomi uses the Juubi's eye, not any Mangekyou Sharingan.
 * As for Danzo's comment, I recall him saying that his genjutsu is inferior to Itachi's, not word about the Tsukuyomi. Do you have the line? Patsoumas1995 (talk) 02:05, January 25, 2014 (UTC)


 * Root of the problem lies with many thinking of Mugen Tsukuyomi as simply a "Tsukuyomi being cast upon the moon"—it isn't.


 * And you're correct about Danzō's comment. Too many take it as confirmation of Sasuke's possession of Tsukuyomi because they can't see the point of Danzō comparing Sasuke's Genjutsu to it otherwise. Hint: Genjutsu castin', Mangekyō Sharingan wielding siblings that share another power in Amaterasu, which was commented on just earlier in the battle. Nowhere is it stated in the raw text that Sasuke used Tsukuyomi.


 * But the primary reason most here generally presume that Sasuke wields Tsukuyomi is due to the fact that it is described as one of the catalyst techniques for Susanoō in the 3rd Databook. Problems with that are not only the fact that the entire description was based around Itachi's example of the technique, but also the contradictory evidence brought about by the armament of Sasuke's own Susanoō, and most importantly, the confirmed dōryoku he's used to conjure it. He claimed that Susanoō was the third power to come about upon awakening the powers of both Mangekyō Sharingan, of which Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi was recognized among them... Doesn't leave room for the unconfirmed Tsukuyomi, yet the claims of his possession of the technique persist.


 * Of course, this would also naturally extend criticism to the presumptions concerning Madara's possession of both Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. The whole situation works rather contrary to how this wiki generally handles speculative matters when scrutinized against evidence from the manga. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 13:05, January 26, 2014 (UTC)

Chapter 413 page 9, any more nonsense?--Elveonora (talk) 16:39, January 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * Were it such a simple matter of making this conclusion based on the monotone/inverted color scheme of the illusion, and it's side-effects, this wouldn't be such a long-running, and heavily disputed topic, Elveonora. The aforementioned colors do not mean it's Tsukuyomi, nor does the physical feedback Sasuke suffered immediately afterwards; as we've also witnessed him similarly clasping his face after successfully knocking out C with the Genjutsu he cast at the Kage Summit in Chapter 462—with his regular ol' Sharingan. As I've asked you before during a similar exchange we had at the Naruto Answers wiki: If a potent enough "lesser" Genjutsu can induce such a reaction, why wouldn't another being bolstered by the power of the strenuous Mangekyō Sharingan?


 * Instead of trying to dismiss the claim as "nonsense"—an attitude that has all but collectively stifled any proper discussion that's been held on the matter here in the past—perhaps your time could be better spent trying to solve the debacle of where Tsukuyomi fits within Sasuke's repertoire of three ocular powers, when three have already been identified to us.


 * Regressing back to Mugen Tsukuyomi: Seelentau's preceding topic should also be considered here. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 17:30, January 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's true that he was seen holding his eye once after using a Genjutsu: Sharingan. I wasn't basing my conclusion on the color scheme but him switching to Mangekyou Sharingan to cast the illusion on Killer B. Let's say it's 50/50 he did or didn't use Tsukuyomi there, but having done so just for the show is unlikely.

Why do you consider Blaze Release a separate Mangekyou power? For all we know it's just an extension of Amaterasu. Also Danzo's comment is important, regular genjutsu affects 5 senses, yet he noted Sasuke's can't alter perception of time (which is outside of basic 5 senses) unlike Itachi's, meaning it's strongly suggested it was Tsukuyomi, otherwise there wouldn't have been a need to draw such a comparison. And yes, Seelentau's topic above is sadly ignored. Also I'm with the OP on this one, there's no evidence that Infinite Tsukuyomi is a Mangekyou technique, quite the contrary. Why do people assume it has more to do with Tsukuyomi besides the name is beyond me--Elveonora (talk) 20:38, January 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * The Mangekyō Sharingan can still be used to cast more powerful types of Genjutsu of the "normal" variety(as "normal" as Genjutsu from a Mangekyō Sharingan can be, anyways), and isn't limited to casting the ultimate, specialized types of Genjtusu like Tsukuyomi, and Kotoamatsukami. So, you're absolutely correct, it wasn't just for show.


 * Kagutsuchi may be somewhat dependent upon Amaterasu(until Susanoo is awakened, anyways), being the Shape Transformation to the latter's Nature Transformation, but is recognized as another ocular power and designated to the opposing eye. Upon discovering the ability in Chapter 415, Sasuke wonders "is this the dōryoku of my Mangekyō Sharingan". The chapter in which Sasuke reveals his third ocular power, Susanoo, C earlier lays out the initial two abilities of Sasuke's Mangekyō Sharingan bare for the readers. Danzō later seals the deal by confirming that Sasuke's Genjutsu lacks the trait that had defined Tsukuyomi: it's ability to alter the recipient's sense of time. Without that, there's nothing to differentiate it's effects from any other powerful Sharingan Genjutsu. Just as Kotoamatsukami is intended to essentially brainwash those on the receiving end, Tsukuyomi is intended to instantaneously effect those who fall victim to it by dishing out a substantial amount of time's worth of mental/spiritual damage in a minuscule moment... And as I mentioned before, they're Genjutsu castin', Mangekyō Sharingan wielding siblings, which had their other, shared ocular power brought up immediately beforehand. There's plenty good reason for the comparison to be drawn, and there's nothing being inferred about Sasuke using Tsukuyomi in the raw text.


 * The perception of Mugen Tsukuyomi as being some kind of widespread "Super Tsukuyomi" is deeply ingrained in the minds of many readers. It's clear now, though, that it is named in that manner due to Tsukuyomi's literal meaning, and the relationship it has with it's method of delivery. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 23:25, January 26, 2014 (UTC)

It's impossible for Sasuke to have used Tsukuyomi on Killer Bee, since Tsukuyomi can't be broken unless the victim has a Sharingan & it's a blood relative with the user. Plus, isn't the fact that it alters the user's sense of time what makes Tsukuyomi special? It's like saying that someone used Amaterasu, but the flames weren't black & so powerful. As for Enton: Kagutsuki, Sasuke uses it with a different eye, not with the same eye he uses for Amaterasu. It's not an extension of Amaterasu. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 01:43, January 27, 2014 (UTC)

Wow, there's some stuff here that's plain false. We KNOW Sasuke has and has used Tsukuyomi. Hell, that was years ago, and I'm certain we've hammered this away on the wiki since then. Sasuke used Tsukuyomi against B. The monochromo color scheme is something particular to Tsukuyomi's art style when it's used. Further, Danzo's comparison makes it even more solid. Danzo didn't just haphazardly bring up Itachi's Tsukuyomi in comparison to Sasuke's ordinary genjutsu. For starters, that would make no sense in terms of how manga writers go about comparing powers between characters, much less in this manga. Secondly, Danzo specifically mentions that Sasuke's technique lacked what Itachi could do with Tsukuyomi, namely controlling the victim's perception of time in the illusion, something only done in Tsukuyomi. But the nail in the coffin is Susanoo. The Third Databook (and Itachi himself) state that Susanoo can only beused by one who has awoken both Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, and only then would Susanoo awaken. As for Infinite Tsukuyomi, clearly the name is at least partly in reference to how the technique is to be cast. But as I recall, the technique is supposed to lock everyone into an unending genjutsu, which one can clearly associate with a mastered Tsukuyomi's time-dilating effect. Skitts (talk) 01:57, January 27, 2014 (UTC)


 * I really don't understand why so many cannot see the point of Danzō's comparison, given Sasuke and Itachi's relationship, and similar dōryoku that were being mentioned in the same vein in that, and the preceding chapter. Tsukuyomi's not being brought up "haphazardly", it stands at the height of Sharingan Genjutsu, which Sasuke just used through his own Mangekyō Sharingan. There's no point lacking in that comparison beyond that of sizing up two Tsukuyomi. That's not the sole interpretation there, nor is it any more likely; especially given the sum of evidence we have against Sasuke's use of Tsukuyomi.


 * The 3rd Databook's description of what is required, and results from Susanoō's acquisition, was based upon Itachi's lone example of the technique. Itachi himself only relays his personal experience upon first revealing Susanoo to us, claiming that this was the last power that awakened in his eyes, after Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. Sasuke's similar declaration in Chapter 464 describes it in a much more general, and simple matter: awakening the powers of both Mangekyō Sharingan. Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are described as representing something of a Ying & Yang relationship in Susanoō's conjuration. Could a similar relationship not be present in Sasuke's Nature, and Shape Transformation of Blaze Release?


 * Furthermore, you'd have to ascertain what exactly makes Tsukuyomi distinct, in terms of it's effects, without it's ability to alter the recipient's sense of time—beyond it's inconsistent, inverted/monochrome aesthetic. Before that particular Chapter, there was no question that this ability was what distinguished Tsukuyomi among the other types of powerful Sharingan Genjutsu. Being cast from the Mangekyō Sharingan? We've seen it used to cast more powerful, but normal Genjutsu. Instant, impossible-to-dispel effects? That's what it's "time-dilating" effect has been attributed to.


 * And finally, you have to address the huge, neon-colored elephant in the room known as Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi. As I mentioned earlier in this discussion, it has been recognized as one of Sasuke's dōryoku, by himself and C, designated to the eye opposing Amaterasu's, and used QUITE prominently since. Sasuke himself claims to have only three ocular powers, and it has been two hundred and sixty chapters since Sasuke awoke his Mangekyō Sharingan with no direct claims of him possessing an ability as prominent as Tsukuyomi; you can't just blame that on him sucking at it. Even after acquiring the Eien no Mangekyō Sharingan—Itachi's eyes—we are given something of an exposition of Itachi and Sasuke's respective dōryoku during their bout against Kabuto in Chapter 585, with Sasuke using the standard Genjutsu: Sharingan in contrast with Itachi's Tsukuyomi. If Kishimoto could have them cast Amaterasu in unison just beforehand, why not Tsukuyomi?


 * In the beginning, I thought it best not to push this here, as many of us were expecting another Databook much sooner. But with the years passing, and what we know of Sasuke's ocular powers, things have been gradually changing concerning this Tsukuyomi vs Kagutsuchi debate. I believe, with especially how often this wiki is referenced as this topic pops up in various forums, a fresh reevaluation should be taken on this entire matter using all the additional information that's been presented to us over the years. The fact of the matter is that Sasuke's "confirmed" possession of Tsukuyomi has, and always been established on a myriad of misconceptions, and presumptions; and rules concerning the techniques' efficacy were contorted to suit them. And more importantly, it's conflicting with what we are being told outright in the manga... That's kind of a problem. Apologies for the wall of text, but given how these discussions have played out in the past, I thought it best to be thorough. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 13:42, January 27, 2014 (UTC)

Amaterasu(sun)&Tsukuyomi(moon) are the eyes of Izanagi while Susanoo is the nose in the middle, kinda a trinity of Gods if you will. Doesn't make much sense for Sasuke to have first and third, skipping the second. Once and if we see a non-amaterasu&non-tsukuyomi user use Susanoo while having Kamui and Kotoamatsukami or whatever overpowered powers Kishi comes up with, you will have a point. Also Tsukuyomi can be used without the time altering aspect, viz Sasuke vs Itachi fight. Madara is a good candidate, we are yet to see Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi from him, so once and if we learn he can use Susanoo without them, the topic of Tsukuyomi removal from Sasuke may continue--Elveonora (talk) 17:47, January 27, 2014 (UTC)


 * I just want it known I have paid absolutely no attention this this discussion. I will read it over and (hopefully) contribute later.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 19:28, January 27, 2014 (UTC)


 * It is true that Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, and Susanoo are three of the most prominent, and referenced Shinto deities. I think it's quite fitting for the ocular powers named after the first two represent the apex of the Uchiha's combat specialties; Sharingan Genjutsu & Katon Ninjutsu. However, Kagutsuchi, their sibling, is the Shinto deity of fire, and flame-based abilities are often named after him throughout various anime, and manga.


 * Also, what leads you to believe that the Tsukuyomi used on Sasuke during his fight with Itachi did not alter his sense of time, as it always did before? The panel of Zetsu's reaction shown in the middle of the illusion? That doesn't exactly infer that everything we were seeing was passing along in real-time on Zetsu's end. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 20:34, January 27, 2014 (UTC)


 * ... That's it then, huh? -_- Are there really none among you that think the aforementioned exposition of Itachi and Sasuke's respective ocular powers, and the manner in which Kagutsuchi has been perceived in this community—from simply a "spiked disc", to all-encompassing, black flame-bending catalyst(which also makes it more than a bit redundant with the way Blaze Release is defined here... But I'm going to leave that be for now)— give us enough merit for reevaluating this? —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 15:42, February 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry I said I was going to come back to this but I didn't (that work life is hard yo) but what does Kagutsuchi have to do with this discussion?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:35, February 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * If I had to guess (and guessing other people's meanings is kind of my thing) I think SaiST is trying to say that the chapter in questions suggests that instead of having Tsukuyomi as his second Mangekyō ability, Sasuke has Blaze Release. And that, as Elveonora brought up the naming of the abilities as reasoning for it not making sense that Sasuke could lack Tsukuyomi but still achieve Susanoo, SaiST countered with Kagutsuchi (a part of Blaze Release) being another Shinto deity of the same general group.--Soul reaper (talk) 12:52, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Sigh, Tsukuyomi vs Blaze Release is one of the most commonly debated topics regarding Sasuke's eyes. It's true we didn't see/hear him utter "Tsukuyomi!!!" ever, but the genjutsu he used against Killer B is the best candidate for it, effect-wise, visually and contextually. Also Danzo's remark that everyone interprets differently for which wouldn't have been a need comparing an ordinary genjutsu to Tsukuyomi, it doesn't contextually make sense, since ordinary genjutsu can't alter perception/flow of time. Would be like comparing clitoris with penis, the former isn't supposed to be bigger... if it is, both parties have a problem lol. Anyway, that's the point I guess... Amaterasu&Tsukuyomi&Susanoo are a Trinity, take the first two as ingredients for the third... the recipe wouldn't work otherwise, but again, Sasuke's cooking skills might not be exemplary, considering he makes his own set of rules when it comes to the meal called plot.

Also one of my points I believe was clear enough, once and if we see Madara use a Mangekyou technique outside the trinity (like Kamui, Kotoamatsukami etc.) despite having Susanoo, he and Sasuke will become the #1 candidates for neutering for trolling us all along--Elveonora (talk) 14:43, February 11, 2014 (UTC)


 * Madara finally showcasing the initial two ocular powers of his Mangekyō Sharingan would certainly help, but I'm starting to worry that Kishimoto's going to let that ship sail too with him becoming the Shinju's Jinchuuriki. Doesn't mean it won't happen, but I'm doubtful. My biggest fear is that deductive reasoning is put to the wayside and the perception of Sasuke having a watered down Tsukuyomi continues until the manga's long since concluded, and nobody longer cares even if Kishimoto gives the definitive answer they've all wanted. Same for the way Blaze Release is being defined.


 * And you may not like it, Elveonora, but there is some sensible context in Danzō comparing Sasuke's Genjutsu to Tsukuyomi. :P It's like drawing a comparison between two sports cars, commending the driver for keeping up, yet at the same time denouncing it as it's being compared to a Ferrari Enzo that can hit 60 from a standstill in 3.4 seconds. Doesn't mean the sports car being compared to it must also be a any type of Ferrari... First used that example over two years ago. Man, this debate has been going on for too long. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 15:47, February 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Blaze Release and Amaterasu are about as different from the other just as each of Obito eye's Kamui are, yet they are apparently the same technique. Kinda fishy for Sasuke to have magical fire in right mangekyou and slightly more magical fire in his left and Susanoo at the same time.--Elveonora (talk) 16:17, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

I'll probably be repeating what someone else may already have said, but here is how I think stuff works, considering what we know, and how I'd list stuff if it were up to me and me alone: I no longer think that Susanoo absolutely requires Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi specifically, just having a jutsu in both eyes. That would mean that Susanoo should have more than those two as a parent, BR: Kagutsuchi would be added as a parent. However, I still believe that Sasuke's MS genjutsu against B counts as Tsukuyomi, per reasons already discussed ad nauseam. This would also mean that Madara would no longer be listed as using Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, since we don't know his individual MS jutsu. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:27, February 11, 2014 (UTC)


 * Well, it's good to see that some of the old heads here are still thinking on it. Now if I can just instill within you enough reasonable doubt that the binding Genjutsu used on B was Tsukuyomi... *mulls*


 * Elveonora, Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi represent two cornerstones of chakra manipulation: Nature Transformation and Shape Transformation. One is creating the Nature Release, while the other is granting the user free reign over it. Those abilities are being made manifest through Sasuke's Susanoo as well, as it creates and manipulates black flames. While Obito and Kakashi's applicaiton of Kamui share traits(and the possibility of the only discrepancies present being due to the users, rather than the powers themselves), Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi have a much more distinct purpose. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 16:42, February 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Perish Satan! For this sheep is under my protection from your pesky influence. @Omni, you mean to say Sasuke has 4 Mangekyou techniques? Why would BR: Kagatsuchi be a parent tho? You agree to his possession of Tsukuyomi that makes one + Amaterasu second. That makes BR: Kagatsuchi fourth--Elveonora (talk) 17:13, February 11, 2014 (UTC)


 * Lulz. But yes, if you recognize Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi as one of Sasuke's ocular powers along with the unconfirmed Tsukuyomi, you'd have to make sense of the three power limit Sasuke has set on us during the Kage Summit.


 * Two hundred and sixty one chapters now, fellas. *smirk* —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 17:18, February 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * What 3 power limit? Did he actually say such a thing?--Elveonora (talk) 17:32, February 11, 2014 (UTC)


 * As mentioned earlier, Sasuke says that Susanoo is his Mangekyō Sharingan's third power during the Kage Summit. So, one of them doesn't belong. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 17:46, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Did he say that before or after first using Blaze Release?--Elveonora (talk) 18:07, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

After. Well after if you're of the opinion that Kagutsuchi was first utilized at the tail end of his fight with Killer B(I am~). Immediately after verifying that the ability to exert greater control over Amaterasu's flames was his right eye's ocular power, allusions began to be made about his acquisition of Susanoo. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 18:10, February 11, 2014 (UTC)


 * What does any of this have to do with Tsukuyomi?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 19:10, February 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Apparently Sasuke stated himself to possess 3 Mangekyou powers. He has Susanoo and Amaterasu, so he either doesn't have Tsukuyomi or Blaze Release doesn't count as separate power.
 * @SaiST, it seems he put out the flames using his right Mangekyou for sure, a while ago I removed that bit from Blaze Release article because apparently so did Itachi, meaning it isn't unique to Sasuke's right eye or is it? Shi* this is getting more and more confusing--Elveonora (talk) 19:16, February 11, 2014 (UTC)


 * Touched on that in Blaze Release's Talk Page, on the topic Seelentau made concerning it's debut, and whether or not it's responsible for extinguishing the flames. If we could take our lil' sub-discussion concerning that there, I'd appreciate it.


 * TheUltimate3, whenever the topic of Sasuke's possession of Tsukuyomi comes up, there are two inevitable paths the discussion will take: What defines Tsukuyomi beyond it's monochrome aesthetic, and what place Kagutsuchi has amongst Sasuke's 3 ocular powers. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 19:51, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

If Sasuke only have 3 dojutsu powers within his eye (when did he mention that?) then Blaze Release has to be an extention of Amaterasu because the databook (read: Naruto Holy Book) stated that to use Susanoo, the person must have Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 20:04, February 11, 2014 (UTC)


 * Yep, based on Itachi's lone example of the technique. Thought you said you were going to review the discussion. ;) And Susanoo was said to be his third power in Chapter 464.


 * Of course, this doesn't invalidate what the Databook says, but forces us to look at it within the context of the material it covered at the time. And while tacking on Kagutsuchi as Amaterasu's "extension" would be mighty convenient, there's the fact that it's been identified as a distinct ocular power, and cast from the opposing eye... And again, two hundred and sixty one(two, by tomorrow) chapters without a single mention of Tsukuyomi. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 20:16, February 11, 2014 (UTC)
 * Please provide chapter for the 3 techniques statement as a reference first--Elveonora (talk) 22:04, February 11, 2014 (UTC)


 * I've mentioned it two or three times already though: 464... Unless you're looking for a link to an actual online reader, which I'm not even sure is allowed here. Here's a few translations though:


 * "This is a power that only one with two awakened Mangekyou can achieve... // The third power...... "Susanoo".". -cnet
 * "A power that only someone who's awakened the Mangekyou Sharingan in both eyes can wield... The third, and final ability, Susanoo!" -hisshouburaiken
 * "A power that only those who have awakened the Mangekyo in both eyes can achieve... The third power... The Susano'o" -Viz


 * There's one more out there, from SleepyFans I believe, with the the infamous "double Mangekyou" line. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 22:24, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

The VIZ translation will do, thank you. I think you are giving it a context of your own liking. He said that Susanoo needs two powers with it being the third, not that he has just three.--Elveonora (talk) 22:28, February 11, 2014 (UTC)


 * The generality of the statement and Susanoo being the third pretty much infers that much, Elveonora. Were the author trying to leave some ambiguity with the number of techniques he was trying to portray from Sasuke's end, he could have simply had him say that Susanoo was the "last" power for those that awakened the powers of both Mangekyō Sharingan. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 22:35, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Databook 3 clearly states that the awakening of Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are the only things that can awaken Susanoo. Kishimoto himself made Databook 3 so it is fact, what you all are failing to see is that NOWHERE was it stated that an individual has a set amount of Mangekyo techniques they can learn/wield. Sasuke has shown 2 very different Genjutsu with his mangekyo going by the image of the techniques alone. One was directly compared to Tsukuyomi by Danzo, Danzo said "Itachi's Tsukuyomi was better IMO SUCKA" lol.. he was not comparing one separate Genjutsu to another, but Sasuke's Tsukuyomi to Itachi's Tsukuyomi. Sasuke has more than one Genjutsu, he just happens to suck at Tsukuyomi so he relies on the other Genjutsu now. Madara himself has shown the flame control of Amaterasu, putting it out when Sasuke hit him with it. Maybe Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are the only 2 Mangekyo techniques that every Mangekyo user can awaken, but it is just simply rare, since Obito who was taught everything by Madara, said it was rare to awaken Susanoo.. meaning it was rare to have Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu at the same time. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 11:06, March 18, 2014 (UTC)


 * The 3rd Databook's description of Susanoo, it's armament, and prerequisites was based on Itachi's example of the technique. Which has already been pointed out earlier.
 * Danzō did not refer to Sasuke's Genjutsu as Tsukuyomi in the raw text, and there's a point in comparing them besides sizing up two Tsukuyomi. Also pointed out earlier.
 * Madara did not "control" the flames from Sasuke's Amaterasu, he absorbed them, as was pointed out in that same chapter.
 * Or perhaps Susanoo is just that rare because it requires a distinct ocular power in each eye, as Itachi and Sasuke have both demonstrated. Obito and Shisui did not follow that trend, and could have been examples of the more common result of Uchiha that awakened the Mangekyō Sharingan. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 21:55, March 21, 2014 (UTC)

Right, gonna throw my two cent in here.

Itachi - Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi and Susanoo

Sasuke - Amaterasu, Rubbish Tsukuyomi?, BR Kagutsuchi and Susanoo

Obito - Kamui (First Party) and Kamui (Third Party)

Shisui - Kotoamatsukami (Both Eyes seemingly)

Madara - Tsukuyomi, Susanoo

Now there's been a lot of talk about who uses what eye for what and how many powers, but I'm simply gonna focus on some other thoughts.

1. Obito and Shisui have both eyes accounted for, but both seemingly only possess one technique, admittedly Obito's is two variants, but since Kamui doesn't cover a single deity, I'm gonna consider the name influence as to be why it's a multiform technique.

2. Shisui's eyes seemingly use the exact same technique with no variation and given all the **** people talk about him, I'm gonna go ahead and say that Tsukuyomi's status as top dog of Uchiha Genjutsu is kinda debatable.

3. Madara must have Tsukuyomi. It is not up for debate. As he had already formulated his plan before Obito even awakened his Mangekyou. Unless he was counting on having an Uchiha on hand who had Tsukuyomi and would co-operate with him, he must have some way to use it himself in order to carry out his plan. If he doesn't, then quite frankly Kishi is a god damned moron and really didn't think this through.

4. Before he died, Itachi seemingly imbued Sasuke's eyes with the ability to use Amaterasu. Who is to say that the powers Sasuke's eyes possess naturally and the ones he was referring to aren't Kagutsuchi, Tsukuyomi and Susanoo? And that his use of Amaterasu wasn't just a result of Itachi's handiwork or Sasuke's misinterpretation of his own powers? As the only times he used it without the Transcription Seal were against Bee and A and both times he seemingly controlled the flames, extinguishing them on Bee and Shaping them against A.

Personally, I think Sasuke is just the Public Bicycle of Uchiha powers and we're looking too much into this particular part, but I'll present this information for anyone still looking to debate this. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 00:23, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

For 3. Infinite Tsukuyomi has nothing to do with Mangekyou's Tsukuyomi besides the name. Obito doesn't even have Tsukuyomi, just Kamui and if Naruto didn't defeat him, he would have succeeded casting it, completing the moon eye plan himself.--Elveonora (talk) 14:21, March 22, 2014 (UTC)


 * Additionally, it's been confirmed that the Genjutsu Madara cast on Obito, which was cast from a regular ol' spare Sharingan, was indeed Mugen Tsukuyomi. It is named as such due to the method of delivery, not because it is some kind of amplified Tsukuyomi.


 * Concerning #4: The Amaterasu Itachi imbued into Sasuke's left eye was Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu, a fuuinjutsu that was released once the specific conditions were met. Sasuke's ability to cast Amaterasu since awakening his own Mangekyō Sharingan has only ever been attributed to his own ocular power. His and Itachi's shared use of it has also been linked to their sibling relationship; Sasuke's possession of it was mentioned as something that should be expected of Itachi's younger brother. This was after Sasuke used Amaterasu on Danzō, Kagutsuchi wasn't used anytime during what we could see of that battle.


 * And #1: Obito doesn't really have two variants of the same ocular power. Ever since Kakashi has come to the realization that his Kamui and the Obito's Jikuukan Idou were the same ability, he's been using it in similar ways. The only discrepancy that currently lies between them is Obito's ability to phase, and Kakashi's long-range application. These discrepancies may be present due to the users, and how they are able to make use of this same power, rather than the eyes themselves... But it should be noted that Kakashi can teleport his entire body to and from the other dimensional space, and that Obito had to have some way of negating, from a distance, the Kamui Kakashi tried to use to decapitate the Gedou Mazou... Boy, this is getting a lil' off-topic. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 02:29, March 23, 2014 (UTC)

Noticed the lil' revert war going on over Sasuke's usage. I think everyone's time would be better spent talking' it out here. ;) —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 18:23, May 4, 2014 (UTC)

Sasuke's Counter
Should there be a mention of Sasuke dispelling this genjutsu with his sharingan? Or was that only made possible because Itachi had allowed him to do so? DazzlingEmerald (talk) 02:08, October 1, 2015 (UTC)
 * " Before using it on Kakashi in Part I, Itachi stated that Tsukuyomi can only be broken by a Sharingan user that shares the same blood as him;[5] as demonstrated when Sasuke overcame Itachi's Tsukuyomi in their battle.[6]" --Atrix471 (talk) 02:24, October 1, 2015 (UTC)