Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-142748-20150410212019/@comment-142748-20150413063801

Rachin123 wrote: They are powerful weapons nonetheless. But they aren't invincible weapons. That's the point I'm making. They're role was so minor, its obvious Black Zetsu was just exaggerating to introduce more pathos to the series. Hashirama used 1 genjutsu and that was countered too. No, it wasn't countered. Hiruzen was completely powerless in it and he couldn't break it. This is from a man with a 5 in genjutsu just like Itachi. All he could do was attack blindly and hope he hit Hashirama and Tobirama or guard himself while getting his ass kicked. And you are again insinuating Hashirama has high genjutsu despite never showing much skill to make it seem so. He caught a Hokage in a genjutsu, said Hokage wasn't able to break it and could only stop it by yanking out Hashirama's soul. Seems to be pretty broken and high level to me, with Hashirama having high skill to use it. Also Itachi wasn't trying to destroy Sasuke's mind or anything. ...Tsukuyomi can't break or destroy someone's mind. It can just inflict enough mental trauma to make them pass out. And that's completely false of you to say "...all of Itachi's genjutsu have been easily broken, resisted or countered." You are making up stuff. I'm not. A clone of Kakashi was able to break Itachi's genjutsu. Kurenai was able to break Itachi's genjutsu before he could even land a kick. Killer B was able to break Itachi's genjutsu before his shuriken could even hit! A greenhorn Naruto was able to resist it to the point where Itachi commended him!

Not once has Itachi's genjutsu been shown to be unbeatable. If a greenhorn Naruto can nearly break it, Hashirama should be able to break through any of Itachi's genjutsu considering he'd have faced a superior genjutsu user. I'm gonna say you're being bias. Don't toss stones if you live in a glass house, man. You have shown little to no proof, specifically for him beating Itachi in genjutsu. Other than being a member of the Senju clan which trains their shinobi in all three disciplines, Hashirama having high chakra control and intelligence (two of Genjutsu's counters), and having fought superior genjutsu users. Hashirama has his wood release. Itachi has his fire and water jutsus. ...Hashirama knows all five elements, Yin Release, Yang Release, and Wood Release. Itachi's fire and water techniques are miniscule in comparison. He can level the field with wood. ...Madara's battlefield-wide Katons were unable to turn one of Hashirama's normal Mokuton, which cover the entire Lightning Desert, in a sea of flames. Yet Itachi's tiny Katons and Suitons can do the same? Seriously? Itachi can chop it easily. Itachi's best Katon can't even burn down a normal forest, why should he be able to do so against a battlefield-sized Mokuton? Even if Hashirama absorbed Hus Susanoo, Itachi has shown more speed, has other types of ninjutsu. Itachi has shown inferior speed to Hashirama. And don't you remember the effects of Susanoo on Itachi? It hurts his entire body, zaps his strength and lessens his reactions. If Hashirama absorbs it, he's done. And Hashirama will not break Tsukuyomi. He shoudl be able to resist it though. Sasuke broke it as Itachi said because you'd a close blood relative and Sasuke being real good in genjutsu explains it. No genjutsu is truly unbreakable, rachni. All can be broken. And that was a hyperbolic statement. Although I believe Itachi broke it but made it seem like Sasuke did but that's speculation although more believable than Hashirama getting a 5 in genjutsu. Manga and databook said Sasuke legitimately broke Tsukuyomi, so you're wrong here. And no its not, Hashirama was able to catch the strongest Kage of the time in a genjutsu that couldn't be broken despite Hiruzen's on 5 in genjutsu. You're underestimating him. I am not overestimating Itachi the slightest. You claimed Itachi's small Katons can burn down Hashirama's entire forests. That's NOT overestimation of Itachi's abilities? He's not even a favs character of mines at all but he is a character you don't like so you may be underrating him and overrating Hashirama without his Sage Mode. I dislike Itachi, but I'm not underestimating or underrating him. Hashirama without his Sage Mode was fighting Madara and Kurama at the same time and and even outran a fricking Bijudama. Yet I'm overrating his abilities, seriously, when he has feats like this? He ain't dodging Amaterasu either. Doesn't need to. Like Nagato he can sense the build up of chakra and block with a Mokuton which will absorb it. And with this, I take my leave, its clear here that this is going to be an run on thing. I gave reasons, good ones, with "facts" so good luck with your discussion Super. You gave no facts dude. Your reasoning was shoddy, and your counters were lacking. You even forgot Hashirama mastered all five chakra natures and yin and yang, and acted even though he put a Kage in a genjutsu that couldn't be broken he's not a accomplish genjutsu user with high chakra control and intelligence.

I'll consider this a concession.

Trappedinmygenjutsu wrote: Hashirama has only used genjutsu once and you label him an accomplished genjutsu user. All Senju are Genjutsu users. Its how they are trained and taught! And his genjutsu was so strong a genjutsu master like Hiruzen, who has a 5 in the stat, was unable to break it! Yet he's not a genjutsu user in your opinion despite these facts? These are scenarios in how the fight will pan out Lets see them. 1. Hashirama has completely no idea of who Itachi Uchiha is (logical) ...this doesnt' work since the scenario has him knowing who Itachi is. - Hashirama looks at Itachi's face in order to see who his enemy is and is caught in Tsukuyomi, Itachi then uses this opportunity to use his Totsuka blade in order to seal Hashirama. At 30 meters distance that is unlikely, and are you forgetting the massive chakra drain Tsukuyomi puts on Itachi? He can't use two Mangekyo techniques in quick sucession, so immediately pulling Totsuka out is not in the cards. And even if he does get his Susanoo up by the time Hashirama recovers, there's no guarantee he can get Totsuka manifested in time before Hashirama recovers. 2. Hashirama knows the name of his opponent is called Itachi Uchiha. And he'd know a bit about Itachi's abilities. - Hashirama avoids looking at Itachi's eyes knowing that he is an Uchiha and decides to look at the lower half of his body. He sees Itachi's finger point at him. He strikes Itachi using his mokuton techniques and thinks the battle is over, but then realizes that it was an illusion. He goes to snap himself out of the genjutsu, but Itachi has already struck him with the Totsuka blade and Hashirama is sealed for eternity. ....can you stop bringing up Ukataka? Its useless in this scenario! A greenhorn Post-Timeskip Naruto was able to resist it! its not an impressive technique! Its of no use in Kage level combat, otherwise Itachi would have used it on Kabuto after he blinded himself!

And no, that won't happen. This scenario severely underrates Hashirama to the point of absurdity. 3. Hashirama knows name and that he is a genjutsu user. I think anyone can infer Itachi would be a genjutsu user since he's a Uchiha. - Hashirama retreats to a safe distance where he begins to use his mokuton techniques. Itachi applies offensive pressure against Hashirama by charging in his general direction and using his Ameterasu in order to burn the mokuton techniques before they can reach Itachi. Hashirama manages to slow down Itachi in order to give himself enough time to use Sage Art Wood Release: True Several Thousand Hands. Itachi tries to summon his Susanoo but the impact completely destroys the battlefield. Hashirama looks to see if Itachi had survived when he is pierced in the back by the totsuka blade. Itachi used a shadow clone in order to distract Hashirama and switched with the clone while he was maneuvering through the mokuton techniques. Hashirama was not able to sense Itachi at the time due to his focus on the shadow clone and not being able to concentrate (something that even the best sensors require during combat). Correction, this scenario is one of the worst. Shadow Clones, Amaterasu, are you deliberately ignoring Itachi's low chakra reserves?! He's not spamming anything! If Hashirama enters Sage Mode and uses Shinsusensju, its DONE. Nothing Itachi does will allow survival. He can't get out of range. His Susanoo can't tank it. He's DONE. 4. Hashirama is completely aware of Itachi Uchiha and all of his abilties. He doesn't need to know all of Itachi's abilities to win... - Hashirama instantly retreats and uses his mokuton techniques in order to give himself more time to create space between himself and Itachi. Hashirama uses his wood clones in order to mix himself between the clones (so Itachi must figure out which one is Hashirama). Itachi responds by using his Susanoo and Yata Mirror to counter the techniques. Hashirama knows that the Yara Mirror will protect Itachi from any technique but is also aware that Itachi has low chakra reserves, so he uses his pollen technique to bypass Susanoo and attacks from all angles in order to land a blow on Itachi. Itachi uses a mix of Ameterasu and Yasaka Magatama in order to fend off the mokuton. Hashirama spams Sage Art Wood Release: True Several Thousand Hands until Itachi runs out of chakra. Itachi then dies as he had no opportunity in order to counter the whole fight. Yasaka Magatama being ANY use against a construct that big? Seriously? Yata Mirror isn't blocking ANY of Hashirama's techniques, it failed to block Kirin which is magnitudes weaker. NOW you take Itachi's stamina issues into account, your last didn't even bother to factor them in since you had him spamming Shadow Clones, Amaterasu, Susanoo, and Tsukuyomi with no consequence!

These scenarios you see even remotely happening? These are just some of many examples of how each fight could play out depending on the smallest details. These fights don't even include most of Itachi's genjutsu (crow clones, a lot of the genjutsu he uses even when people try and avoid genjutsu, etc). Your scenarios are wildly inaccurate. In fact they're a disservice to both Itachi's and Hashirama's character. Your inflating Itachi's powers to absurd levels. You act like he can spam Mangekyo Sharingan techniques and shadow clones. You again insist Yata Mirror is unbeatable.

I don't even know what to say at this point...