Board Thread:Naruto Discussions/@comment-34700383-20180829185752/@comment-6769189-20180907122225

CombatIQmatters wrote: Ok, let's establish a few things

Juubidara and Juubito were in sage mode as per Juubiara's statement. The wiki also sayys that becoming a TTJ is a form of sage transformation, which was also established as sage mode. It's clear they had ridoku sage mode, aka six paths sage mode, calling it something else should be semantics... You can call it semantics but the databook is very specific about the termonology used to describe the results of the Coffin Seal versus SPSM.

There isnt a source that equates Sage Transformation and Sage Mode. If they were the same they wouldnt have 2 different names. And 2 different databook entries. Sage Transformation also has unique properties not found in Sage Mode users. The databook entry legitimately says that the form of Senjutsu achieved by Jugo's clan is called Sage Transformation. Sage Mode isnt used to describe this form at all[]

CombatIQmatters wrote:

Ridoku senjutsu's only known source is the juubi. Juubito became a ridoku sage after absorbing the juubi, despite having no senjutsu training whatsoever. This is proof that the juubi can grant its jinchuriki six paths senjutsu and sage mode, even if they had no prior training. Madara/Obito wouldnt need prior training because yes, the Juubi provides SP Senjutsu. But that doesnt mean it is the only possible way to achieve it.

Chakra itself was the only accessible through the fruit of the God Tree, until Hagoromo and Hamura were born with it. They were actually born with 6 Paths Chakra. Much like Hashirama they could have learned to take in natural energy to form SPSM. Hagoromo was also friends with Sage creatures who could have taught him about Senjutsu

CombatIQmatters wrote:

No one can prove how hagoromo and hamura got their six paths senjutsu chakra, so why is it still being discussed? We dont discredit Hashirama's Sage Mode just because it was never explained how he learned it so why discredit Hagoromo/Hamura's unexplained SP Senjutsu. Its not like Hagoromo wasnt friends with Sage animals.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

We are talking about a manga where chakra absorption abilities can steal senjutsu chakra. Why is it hard to believe that hagoromo could have used his rinnegan to absorb six paths senjutsu from the juubi, similiar to how madara did to hashi? We saw what happened when Naruto got cought by the Juubi/Shinju this is probably why 6 Paths CT is an instant win technique.

Obito took Senjutsu chakra from Juubidara and he himself had 6 Paths chakra but did not have SPSM or SP Senjutsu.

There is also precedent where chakra absorbers didnt gain Senjutsu by absorbing senjutsu chakra. Preta Pain gained no amps from absorbing Senjutsu chakra

Madara did gain Sage Mode by absorbing Hashirama's chakra into his Hashiboob. Its questionable if he would have been able to do so if he didnt have such intense body modifications.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

Logically, Madara who became a sage after absorbing senjutsu chakra and mixing it with his ridoku chakra, should have gotten six paths sage mode. The fact that he didn't could simply mean that six paths senjutsu actually has another component to it that we don't know about, and logically, the juubi would have this missing component. I see your point here, but Sasuke combined all of the Bijuu's chakra into Susanoo and he didnt have SP Senjutsu Susanoo. Kurama himself confirmed that he was doing what Hagoromo did to split the Tailed Beasts but in reverse and was using Susanoo as the vessel for the combined chakra.(ch 696)

CombatIQmatters wrote:

Even if you claim that hagoromo figured out how to make ridoku senjutsu, all you're saying is that he found a way to recreate juubi chakra, as madara referenced the coffin seal and tomoe on naruto's back as proof of ridoku senjutsu, i.e. juubi chakra. Except there is never any mention of a second Juubi chakra. We know that a second mass of Bijuu chakra will create a duplicate of that Bijuu, but its clear that all of the bijuu chakra inside Naruto remained as seperate entities.(ch 673, 674, 688, 696)

CombatIQmatters wrote:

Saying that the markings on narutos's cloak are basically because he has all 9 bijuu chakra is a concession, because having all 9 bijuu chakra is what gives you ridoku senjutsu. This is like saying using Water release and lightning release at the sametime is using Storm Release. It is possible to have all 9 without combining them into 1

CombatIQmatters wrote:

So, as I said, hokage naruto lacks the coffin seal and tomoe, lacks yellow eyes ( in pictures I see them as orange), and has his KCM cloak covering his face, those facts combine should show that he isn't using SPSM like he did in the war. we know he hasn't lost hagoromo's chakra. To me his eyes match the dark yellow outlines of his cloak. Probably done so whe can actually see his eyes considering KCM1 Naruto's eyes were barely visible. Is there a color version of the Boruto manga/7th hokage gaiden? I want to see how it was handled in the manga.

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

You're only proving my point. The same chapter you cite debunks you. Everyone in the alliance was given a small amount of kurama chakra from Naruto. Each of those fragmented chakra shrunk down to functionless levels. This is the exact thing that happened to Naruto' 1-8 tails fragments. The kicker here is realizing how the alliance got those depleted chakras back functional levels; they relied on the actual biju. It was Naruto, who used the half of kurama inside minato, who delegated more chakra to those 40 thousand fragments. None of the alliance was able to gain more kurama chakra on their own or without the help of kurama himself. So what makes you think Naruto can gain more 1-8 tails chakra on his own? He can't. Thinking that he can is both textbook insanity and contradictory to your own logic. Just like the alliance, Naruto' depleted vestiges must be replenished by actual biju or at the very least a larger fragment of their chakra. Since there's no canon support for this happening, those vestiges inside Naruto remain unusable and functionless just like the depleted kurama fragments were inside the members of alliance before naruto aided them. I never said that he could get more on his own. My point was he had their chakra, just not a lot, and if he wanted he could talk to the other bijuu.

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

The hypocrisy is astounding. You are ready to claim that every image on the rsm databook page depicts Naruto in rsm but aren't able to do the same about ksm in the last guidebook. You must be allergic to consistency. Anyways, the translation of the last guidebook confirms that they are in fact the same mode. Now, you'd be directly contradicing canon if you claim otherwise. The 4th databook SPSM entry shows the yellow/cross pupil form that first appeared in 672 and the cloaked version in 673

The Last guidebook doesnt confirm they are the same mode. The last guidebook says he has Kurama Mode and can use it with Sage Mode at the same time [] this form first appeared in 645

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

Where's the proof of this claim? When Hamura's golem first attacked Naruto was jumping about when he activated Sage Mode.

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

See I knew you were a hippocrate. Anyways, his eyes weren't specifically acknowledged or highlighted by the databook the way juubi'chakra was. This claim will never be more than that. The image of him kicking the TSB was him with the yellow-cross pupils. If this wasnt considered SPSM it wouldnt be on the page. How am i a hypocrite if that form is acknowledged with an image on the page?

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

You just cited 2 points in the manga that was 3 chapters apart, so whatever your point was here you're a worse example of it. Naruto didnt even have the chakra of all the Tailed Beasts chakra when Hagoromo said certain conditions were met so he could not have been talking about having all the Tailed Beasts chakra.

Hagoromo wasnt talking about Tailed Beasts at that point at all.

Hagoromo started talking about the history of Kaguya, himself, and his sons and how Madara was seeking to end the world. Then he made a request of Naruto to stop Madara.

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

But they did and that was enough for both hagoromo and kurama to agreed that he fulfilled the prophecy and that's why you're wrong. He didnt fulfill the prophecy. He had yet to change the world. Hagoromo believed him to be the one to do it but this had nothing to do with the "conditions" from the chapter earlier.

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

I'm well aware of the other possible meanings of the word, but after the example you provided in those two cited chapters we both have a better understanding of what that word means in context. It just as I stated. You mean the chapters i cited that confirmed the chakra was there just very very tiny? But still there.

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

Which you know by now further proves me right since those depleted chakras were rejuvenated by a greater chakra which never canonically happened to Naruto. Never said he did i just he had some but it was tiiiiiiny. I conceded nothing because the definition you chose is wrong according to the novel.

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

Madara' jinchuriki body was used to make more by hagoromo and kaguya. Obito made more Hagoromo materialized himself and his TSB from the afterlife. Those TSB are not new.

Obito manipulated Black Zetsu's body in a manner similar to TSB. You can literally see the bits of Black Zetsu coming off.

Madara doesnt have all of Kaguya's abilities. So even though she could do it doesnt mean he can.

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

It just so happen that each healing feat was done with the same hand that had the rikudo power on it, and the seal on guy's chest after Naruto placed that same hand there is just coincidence, just like Sasuke' rinnegan awakening on the same side that he got his rikudo hand power right. It's all just meaningless coincidences. Its Naruto's dominant hand. Naruto displayed this healing ability in the Boruto movie.

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

Unless you are certain of how that happened, citing it does nothing for your claims. That is a fallacy. Thats like saying Hashirama doesnt have Sage Mode because it was never revealed how he learned it. Or that Madara doesnt use a gunbai because we never saw how he obtained it

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

Evidence of Hamura having rikudo chakra is where? He and Hagoromo using a SP Senjutsu technique on Kaguya.

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

Why hasn't any of hamura' descendants awakened rinnegan? Because he inherited the Byakugan from Kaguya and Hagoromo inherited the Rinnegan.

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

Where's the evidence either hamura or hagoromo awakening rikudo senjutsu without the juubi' chakra? Them using SP Chibaku Tensei to seal her. Later on Hamura had TSB

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

It is relevant since his appearance changes depending on who gathers that energy. Something you failed to grasp earlier in this response. Don't disregard facts because they inconvenience you. Except in the Last Naruto had toad Sage Markings at a time when he couldnt have possibly gathered that energy himself

Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

It does make you wrong. Your claims go unproven, you're guessing. There is no way to verify any claims you make without context evidence proof. Etc. We aren't here to believe you or give you the benefit of the doubt. Either you know what you're talking about and can cite sources to confirm your claims or you don't and can't. Based on what we're seeing from you, you don't and can't. Hagoromo and Hamura used CP Chibaku Tensei to seal Kaguya. (Hamura) was the younger brother who sealed the Jyuubi together with his older brother Hagoromo. Hamura became the head of the Otsutsuki clan after the battle. In order to stand guard at the sealed Jyuubi’s essential body (/vessel), which is the Gedou Mazou that was produced by the “Rikudou Chibaku Tensei”, he and his clan migrated together towards the moon.[] Six Paths Chibaku Tensei is invoked when two users simultaneously touch their target with the "Yin" and "Yang" seals. It rips a giant chunk of earth up and turns it into a heavenly body, becoming the Prison of Six Paths (六道の獄 Rokudō no Goku) that can capture all things (万物捕, "banbutsuto"). '''It's a sealing jutsu that can be used by individuals who awaken Six Paths Senjutsu. '''[] Dont give me attitude because Kishimoto gave us the what and not the how.
 * Ch 690
 * Hamura's databook entry
 * 6 Paths Chibaku Tensei Entry