Talk:Chidori

Boruto
In the newest boruto trailer, Boruto was seen using a lighting technique but why is everyone assuming its chidori? Him being listed as a user seems more like a guess than a confirmation. --Bio havik (talk) 02:09, June 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * What else could it be?--Mina [[Image:Hatake Symbol.svg|20px]] talk 02:11, June 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * One of the many lighting techniques that emits lightning. We didn't eve see Boruto's hand afterall. --Bio havik (talk) 02:17, June 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * His technique looks and sounds like Chidori. Narsha (talk) 02:26, June 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * Im going off memory but doesn't chidori sound identical to some of the Raikage's techniques? I have my money on that's he using a Lightning Release Rasengan XD --Sarutobii2 (talk) 02:43, June 20, 2015 (UTC):

Japanese fans that saw the movie even say its not Chidori. --Bio havik (talk) 20:01, July 26, 2015 (UTC)

Not showing up in Boruto's article
So anyone know how to fix that again? Because it is marked as (Movie Only), the technique doesn't show up in Boruto's infobox. I could remove the movie only tag, but that's the only way I think to make it work.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 16:22, June 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * This is where I was going with this thread. Since it's canon, this technique should show up in the infobox, but removing the movie only tag would technically be inaccurate. It's not just this case either, some techniques for Sasuke, Toneri & Hinata fall under this as well.--Mina [[Image:Hatake Symbol.svg|20px]] talk 16:27, June 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * Why are we adding pre-release stuff anyway, thought we don't do that.--Elve Talk Page 16:34, June 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * I also thought that as well Elve. Didn't realise the position has changed and we just add information whenever it becomes available. o.O --Sajuuk tce 16:35, June 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * There was a time we would add pre-release stuff so long as it was official. Now I'm not going to be one to look gift information in the mouth, but I'd rather get this kind of thing done with now than later.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 16:37, June 20, 2015 (UTC)

In that case Sasuke should be added as Shadow Clone user.--Elve Talk Page 16:39, June 20, 2015 (UTC)


 * Great. Have at it. But what about Boruto and according to Minamoto15 the other movie based techniques.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 16:42, June 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * Same thing is with Chakra Transfer Technique and Hinata, way back from The Last. Maybe there is a way to tag some pages so that they would appear in the infoboxes regardless of their appearance in the media?--Omojuze (talk) 17:03, June 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * I've edited some templates. Assuming I haven't forgotten to do something, it may start showing up within the next 24 hours. (This only applies to Boruto and Chidori at the moment.) ~SnapperTo 17:24, June 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * Awesome. Thank you, hope you did it correctly! :) Now, we play the waiting game.--Omojuze (talk) 17:28, June 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * Sweet. Just so you're all aware, as Omojuze pointed out, Chakra Transfer Technique really should show up for Hinata, Hamura, and Toneri, Truth-Seeking Ball & Puppet Technique for Toneri as well, Shadow Clone Technique & Multiple Shadow Clone Technique for Sasuke. I'll bring more to light if I see any, but these are the only ones I'm aware of at the moment.--Mina [[Image:Hatake Symbol.svg|20px]] talk 17:41, June 20, 2015 (UTC)
 * @Snapper2 - Didn't work. :(--Omojuze (talk) 09:40, June 23, 2015 (UTC)
 * Honestly at this point, I'm of mind to just allow the (Movie Only) label to function just like the anime one. I see little reason as to why it doesn't.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 13:04, June 24, 2015 (UTC)
 * Because stuff like this would pop up in character articles >.>--Omojuze (talk) 13:13, June 24, 2015 (UTC)

And with the tagged line (Movie Only) I fail to see how that is a problem.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 13:15, June 24, 2015 (UTC)
 * Might have something to do infobox overloading maybe, or that they aren't canon. That said, I agree it doesn't matter. You're already noting it's a tech only used in the movie by said character. It's not like you're defeating a purpose by treating it like you would the anime, and it's also not like we're including it in the main articles, with the exception of this movie and "The Last"--Mina [[Image:Hatake Symbol.svg|20px]] talk 14:02, June 24, 2015 (UTC)
 * I suspect that it was originally decided only to list canon techniques. I think it would be better if ALL anime, manga and movie techniques appeared in infoboxes, not just "canon" techniques.
 * If this is not possible, then the "Jutsu" heading for the collapsible box should be converted to a "BrowseData" link. --Sajuuk Special:Contributions/SuperSajuuk 20:33, June 24, 2015 (UTC)

update
So anyway, my attempt at a workaround seems to have failed. Where do people stand on listing movie only techniques in infoboxes? ~SnapperTo 18:40, July 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * Not quite. Chakra Threads and Puppet Technique are showing up for Shinki. Dunno why it worked there but not here. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:47, July 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * That's pleasantly surprising and frustratingly confusing. Is the movie canon tag being used anywhere else? Whether successfully or not doesn't matter. ~SnapperTo 19:02, July 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * @Omni - because Shinki is a movie-only character, that is the reason it appears.--Omojuze (talk) 19:10, July 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * That's not strictly true. Characters that debut in The Last or Bortuo automatically receive anime and manga tags, so they should still encounter movie tag gaps. ~SnapperTo 19:31, July 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * I think Soft Physique Modification has it for Mitsuki, Strong Fist and another Leaf something taijutsu for Metal Lee. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:39, July 18, 2015 (UTC)
 * Why aren't movie techniques allowed to show up on the pages anyway? Now Toneri's techs aren't showing up on his infobox.--Kuroiraikou (talk) 19:59, August 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Bump--Kuroiraikou (talk) 00:00, August 8, 2015 (UTC)

Susanoo: Chidori
Shouldn't we separate this technique on the bases of different sized versions of techniques get their own article. Like Runt Ball Rasengan, Wind Release: Ultra-Big Ball Rasenshuriken etc? --Bio havik (talk) 05:12, December 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * We tried, we did, but it got deleted (because it was considered "fanon" at the time). The easiest thing to do would be to restore the deleted article and rename it accordingly, if others agree to do so of course.
 * EDIT: I'll see if I can ask. 05:20, December 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks. --Bio havik (talk) 06:57, December 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * There's the whole notion of it being too similar to the basic Chidori (a.k.a. The "Flapping Chidori" theory).--Omojuze (talk) 10:10, December 7, 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not opposed to having a split article for Susanoo: Chidori, the reason I've added it to this article without splitting it is precisely because I knew this discussion would take place. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 13:58, December 7, 2015 (UTC)

Separating Onxy Chidori.
I 100% agree that flapping chidori should just be mentioned on this article since its basically the same technique, but the same can't be said about Onxy Chidori. Onxy Chidori wraps a opponent's body in electricity, to seemingly immobilize them. That function is nothing like a normal chidori. --Bio havik (talk) 15:50, December 8, 2015 (UTC)
 * Not really. Electricity has always spread from Chidori. That's the whole point of Lightning Release jutsu, per Kakashi's explanation of nature transformation to Naruto. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:59, December 8, 2015 (UTC)
 * Madara (even rather his Limbo clone) was immobilised by Naruto's Magnet Release Rasengan (Shukaku's juinjutsu in it), dude, regardless if Chidori really added a bit of immobilizing effect or not. However, I still agree that if Susanoo Chidori got it's own page, either other Chidori variations must have it too or none of them can have it. But this topic belongs to Susanoo Chidori talkpag, where I picked up this question. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 16:02, December 8, 2015 (UTC)
 * This has nothing to do with Susanoo Chidori. @OmniBender Its true that electricity is uncontrollably emitted from a regular chidoi, but Onxy Chidori is manipulated around an opponent. That's pretty unique in function. --Bio havik (talk) 16:15, December 8, 2015 (UTC)
 * I believe showing electricity wrapping around a victim is common with Cidori. I believe a similar thing happened to Killer B when Sasuke shocked him with a regular Chidori.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 15:35, December 9, 2015 (UTC)
 * Flapping Chidori is connected to the Cursed Seal; The Cursed Seal is an application of Sage Transformation; Sage Transformation uses natural energy; Senjutsu applies natural energy. Is it too speculative to suggest that natural energy may influence Chidori's coloring?Lokker G (talk) 00:54, December 17, 2015 (UTC)
 * Very much so yes.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 02:36, December 17, 2015 (UTC)

Speed boost?
About the reason for the 'Tunnel Vision' and the speed boost Chidori seems to imply.

I can see that the only reason for the tunnel vision is written as the user runs fast while using. Which isn't logical for many reasons in Naruto. I and some users and I would believe some others would, stand on the fact that alike many other Lightning Release Jutsus, Chidori gives the user, a certain 'speed boost'. We have in the very introduction that Chidori is like no other stab/jab/thrust. But it's secret lies in the immense chakra focuses in the arm and the impossible speed it is used in. Thus for the Chidori causing the tunnel vision which is a result of the user going beyond his natural limit, thanks to the Chidori's Lightning principle. (BlazeRelease (talk) 07:19, October 15, 2018 (UTC)) BlazeRelease
 * Yeah, no. That thread might not be as long as the SPSM one, but it's just as nonsensical. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:18, October 15, 2018 (UTC)
 * In 240, Kakashi says that his technique is like Minato's nickname because he feels he can hit the all of his enemies so fast. Later in the chapter Minato says that the thrust of Chidori gives Kakashi speed and power but that speed makes him unable to see an enemies counter. LegionZero (talk) 01:43, October 16, 2018 (UTC)
 * I've glimpsed the nonsense in the thread. If Chidori focuses chakra in the hand, no reason it would affect anything else. Sasuke wouldn't have needed to train with Kakashih for a month to get enough speed for Chidori. The jutsu is fast because Kakashi is fast using it, not because Chidori makes him fast. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:21, October 16, 2018 (UTC)
 * Even though the manga clearly states that the jutsu is fast? Not the user. Unless there is a translation issue, Chidori's thrust is the problem. Thrust is defined as a sudden or forceful push. Sasuke would actually have to train to get enough speed or else the speed of Chidori would cause him to trip over his own feet. He also needed to up has stamina so he would have enough chakra to use Chidori. Literally nothing stops Sasuke or Kakashi from not using it in a straightline dash or simply not running so fast if Chidori didnt have its own forward propulsion. Sasuke was already fast than Gaara or his sand so why not just activate Chidori and run circles around him, duck under his attacks and hit him. i dont even think there are cases where Chidori is used while running in any sort of arc. LegionZero (talk) 02:59, October 16, 2018 (UTC)
 * @Omni, I think this topic stems from one thing alone, people's attempts to explain the technique's tunnel vision.--Elve Talk Page 10:50, October 16, 2018 (UTC)
 * To elaborate on what Omni said regarding just Kakashi being fast; When we first see Sasuke use Chidori, he uses it from a wall; As a means to achieve a greater speed by running down the wall. Why would he need to do that if Chidori gave you additional speed (somehow)? Swag points? Yeah, no.--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 15:50, October 16, 2018 (UTC)
 * Sasuke using the wall for speed was never stated or even implied by the series.LegionZero (talk) 17:13, October 16, 2018 (UTC)
 * Every argument for this can be reduced to "misconstrue everything there is about it to claim it does something it doesn't, ignore every argument against it, rinse and repeat". Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:53, October 16, 2018 (UTC)
 * Misconstrue how? I made did some minor paraphrasing but I can take direct quotes from the manga if you want. Your complete dismissal of the cited chapters and statemants without a breakdown/analysis of them is very concerning. LegionZero (talk) 21:38, October 16, 2018 (UTC)

I think it's obvious why sasuke backed up to the wall. He is dealing with a guy who has an ultimate defense. More space to run means more space to get to your top speed, means more momentum generated, more momentum generated means a higher chance of piercing the shield. It was a combination of that, plus dramatic effect. However, that in no way shape or form addresses minato banning the jutsu from kakashi's arsenal due to the speed the jutsu causes the users to experience which causes the tunnel vision. If the user's running speed alone was the problem, then that issue could be addressed by simply telling them to change how they are running, not by recommending the discontinued use of the jutsu itself. Where is naruto's tunnel vision when he is running in a straight line with rasengan? Where is might guy's tunnel vision when he runs in a straight line while using the gates? Hokage kakashi went as far as to replace the raikiri with purple lightning, and hokage kakashi has not suffered a change in speed. he lost his sharingan, the only thing that allowed him to handle running with the chidori. The logic of the opposition seems to imply that ninja don't run at their top speed in a straight line during battle in fear of tunnel vision, when that was never shown, stated, or implied to my knowledge outside of the context of the usage of chidori.CombatIQmatters (talk) 23:25, October 16, 2018 (UTC)


 * The argument that Chidori itself causes a speed boost hinges on the assumption that a) Kishimoto can accurately apply real-world mechanics to the Naruto universe, and b) Kishimoto can be consistent within his own universe. A casual look at Naruto will show that neither of these assumptions are accurate.
 * Rock Lee provides an explanation for the speed and tunnel vision in chapter 114. Whether or not that explanation makes sense is not the wiki's concern. If there ever comes a day when Rock Lee's explanation is explicitly contradicted in the series, the article will be updated to reflect that. But not until then. ~SnapperTo 02:48, October 17, 2018 (UTC)
 * Lee never said anything that would contradict Chidori being the reason for such acceleration. All he said was that he wouldn't use that kind of speed in a straightline dash because it can be easily avoided but even more so he wouldnt be able to see the counter attack.LegionZero (talk) 03:16, October 17, 2018 (UTC)

@Snapper The problem with that argument is that rock lee isn't the sole source on the usage of chidori, and his comments are the direct result of hearing might guy's description of the jutsu. Meaning, rock lee's comments aren't in a vacuum. And everyone seems to avoid Minato's statement on the jutsu like the plague for whatever reason. The dude clearly attributed Kakashi's issues with tunnel vision to chidori. And what's interesting is that the wiki doesn't even debunk our claim. It clearly tells you the speed at which the chidori is performed is the greatest asset, and the downside is tunnel vision, so go figure. Kishimoto's understanding of physics have nothing to do with it, nor does his consistency in this case. The jutsu was stated to have a stabbing speed that pushes the limits of the human body, and we have been shown and told that without the sharingan Kakashi experiences tunnel vision while using the jutsu while running, and not in any other context. Kishimoto hasn't contradicted himself from what I can tell in this case. The fact that Gai states that chidori pushes the limits of the human body debunks the idea that it only affects the arm. the user clearly suffers tunnel vision from the jutsu while running. The counter-argument I have seen is hypocritical, because if Kishimoto is so bad and inconsistent at the application of real world physics and logic, then why would you assume that chakra to the arm giving a speed boost is so out of bounds in his universe? Chakra to the arm providing a speed boost is illogical but clearly kishimoto doesn't follow logic and science in every case. Still doesn't change minato's and guy's statements on raikiri/chidori and the shown feats. Likewise, I can see where people are coming from with chakra to the arm = speed boost seeming illogical, but it is what is. The jutsu pushes the limits of the human body and causes tunnel vision for the user while running, that is the bottom line. hence minato called it an incomplete jutsu. Nowhere did Minato tell kakashi to stop running in a straight line, no where did he tell kakashi to use a lower running speed. kakashi still uses his top speed, but chidori would push him over the edge without a sharingan.CombatIQmatters (talk) 04:11, October 17, 2018 (UTC)
 * And you avoid the thing every points out in your Minato claim argument. Chidori itself doesn't exist in a vacuum either, it depends on the user. The speed Minato mentions is the speed the jutsu is used with, by the user. The lightning chakra of the jutsu itself isn't running on its own. Chidori isn't an aim and shoot projectile. LegionZero, right back at you at "concerning" regarding dismissing everything that was brought up against this nonsense in the thread. If you can do it, so can I. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:12, October 17, 2018 (UTC)

Omnibender, see, I predicted someone would say something like that, and I am prepared. The raikage's ration armor isn't a projectile attack either. We have seen many times that he can form the armor and stand in one spot without any issues. Yet, when the raikage starts running he suffers or benefits, (depending on your world view), an increase in his running speed beyond his normal limit. The only reason he doesn't have tunnel vision is because his ration armor stimulates his nervous system, meaning his brain can still perceive the world without any issue. My argument is simple. The raikiri does the same thing as ration armor but it doesn't stimulate the user's nervous system, which is the whole reason kakashi needs a sharingan to use it while running unless he wants to die to an unseen counter attack. and on the contrary, I have yet to avoid anyone's statements. Whenever I bring up the minato statement, the same pattern ensues. People ignore it and focus on an interesting interpretation rock lee's statement. I am still waiting for someone to debunk the following sentence from me:"Nowhere did Minato tell kakashi to stop running in a straight line, no where did he tell kakashi to use a lower running speed. where is this tunnel vision issue when other characters faster than part one rock lee are seen running in a straight line, and running at their top speed?" why would minato ban the jutsu when according to you all, kakashi's "rock lee" running speed is what is causing the tunnel vision? Rock lee even states he wouldn't use the speed sasuke was running at, already debunking the claim that sasuke was simply using rock lee's speed. if rock lee was capable of running at the speed sasuke was running at with the chidori then we would have seen might gai telling him to stop using the weightless speed. rock lee had no tunnel visions whatsoever when he was blitzing gaara in the chunin exams. furthermore, where is the tunnel vision for characters who don't have a ration armor, don't have a sharingan, but are faster than part one weightless lee? we don't see any tunnel vision issues when we see them running at their opponent in a straight line.CombatIQmatters (talk) 19:26, October 17, 2018 (UTC)
 * Omnibender I didnt dismiss anything. I addressed every point with a counter argument. Kakashi and Minato refer to the speed of the jutsu, not the speed in which the user. Minato says that the jutsu shouldnt be used again because it is incomplete due its speed. If Kakashi's speed was the problem, Minato would tell him not to move so fast. Again, Lee and Gai didnt refer to speed of the user, they referred to the speed of the attack. Even if that how it was meant to be interpereted in 113-114 as the speed of the user, chapter 240 makes it clear that the speed comes from Chidori and not the user and would constitute retcon.LegionZero (talk) 19:50, October 17, 2018 (UTC)

Exactly, The Raikage even says in chapter 463 pg 3 that the chidori boosts penetrative power. Minato also says that with the jutsu kakashi has power and speed, obviously attributing those qualities to the jutsu itself, but he noticed kakashi was moving so fast that he was suffering tunnel vision. Case closed. hence why he banned the jutsu, and not kakashi's supposed "rock lee speed". The jutsu was incomplete. Clearly, the tunnel vision was problematic enough that kakashi is forced to use his sword only for cutting and piercing rather than a super-powered spear that can harm A4's raiton armor, until he gets a sharingan from obito.CombatIQmatters (talk) 02:15, October 18, 2018 (UTC)
 * Obviously a twisted view. Minato doesn't say the jutsu is fast. He says "because of the speed of your movements are so fast". You're taking what he said and twisting it.

"Rock lee even states he wouldn't use the speed sasuke was running at"


 * Obviously another twisted statement. He stated he wouldn't attack in that manner. Nothing about him not being able to run at that speed. The entirety of your argument is just full of twisted statements and assumptions, and I'm obviously not the only one who sees it. Your argument of people running faster than Lee also doesn't work since we seen plenty of people run faster than Chidori Kakashi. There is no Chidori feat that even triumphs most speedsters. So your argument still fails since it can be used against you. You can't say anything to us that we can't say to you. LoneNinja (talk) 04:57, October 18, 2018 (UTC)
 * You are taking the statement out of context Lone. Yes he said Kakashi's movements were too fast but that was in reference to the intense thrust of Chidori. He talks about how Chidori has too much thrust on that same panel. If Kakashi's own speed was the problem Chidori wouldnt be an incomplete jutsu, he would just tell Kakashi that he needs to slow down to use it properly. Thrust is a sudden and forceful push. He also said Chidori has speed and destructive power. There is also the fact that Kakashi compared Chidori to Minato's nickname and called it instant. There isnt getting around that one. LegionZero (talk) 07:02, October 18, 2018 (UTC)
 * Actually I'm not. He said movements, plural. A single thrust wouldn't fit the word movements. You're the one who is taking things out of context and twisting statements. He never said Chidori. He said "/You/ have the destructive power and speed". Thrusting ability isn't movement speed. Just because you got a powerful thrust doesn't mean you can move your feet from point a to point b fast. Kakashi's speed isn't the problem, it's the fact the enemy can react to it with ease which is something you guys disregard. I can also use that argument on you. If Chidori boosting speed was the problem Chidori wouldn't be an incomplete jutsu, Minato would just tell him to slow down to use it properly. If it was instant it definitely wouldn't be a problem, seeing as it would instantly hit anyone before they can react. If it was faster than Eight Gate users who supposedly don't suffer from Tunnel Vision, then it definitely wouldn't be a problem that it can be countered. The fact of the matter is, is it can be countered. If it was a speed booster, it wouldn't be countered unless someone is faster. Seeing as there's only a handful of shinobi extremely faster than base Kakashi, that shouldn't be a problem especially when he supposedly can increase his speed greater than Eight Gate users. So if it boosts speed to such a degree, why is being countered with ease even a problem? LoneNinja (talk) 10:52, October 18, 2018 (UTC)
 * "A thrust all concentrated in one point... of course you have destructive power and speed but, because the speed of your movements are so fast you cant see your opponants counter. Because of that its an incomplete jutsu." This entire statement was in reference to using Chidori. All of the attributes Minato noted were attributes of Chidori. Kakashi running too fast because he wants to make Chidori incomplete. Chidori thrusting him forward too fast makes it incomplete. Minato tells him not to use it again because the flaw lies in the technique itself, not it in the way its used. A thrust would fit the word movements(plural) because that thrust would carry over to any movement Kakashi made, be it a change in direction. Kakshi was pretty fast but hes a far cry from speedsters like A. You keep ignoring the fact that the enemy counter is only a problem because the Chidori user can't see the counter, both Minato and Lee specifically noted it this and Lee took it a step further saying that the Sharingan is what allowed Sasuke to see counters. Chidori would be a problem for almost any user because the techniques speed pushes the limits of the body, as stated by Gai. Regardless of how fast the user is, Chidori is always going to adding its own thrust on top of that, except for maybe 4thRai level speedsters. Rasengan is used the same way, (run forward and push it into someone) but it doesnt push the limits of the body with speed, so it doesnt have the same "cant see a counter attack" problem. Even Sasuke got countered while using Chidori in VOTE2 once his Sharingan ran out. Kakashi calling it instant and comparing it to Yellow Flash is hyperbole but the point still stands that he said the technique itself is really, really fast, and his statement alone is enough for us the viewers to understand that the speed is more the technique than the user. LegionZero (talk) 20:31, October 18, 2018 (UTC)
 * Are you just going to ignore the fact that Minato and Lee stated the only problem is being countered with ease? You keep trying to say the vision is the problem, but if you're so fast that shouldn't be a problem since you would kill them before they can react. The mere fact that people can react to it with ease proves it isn't a speed booster. The point is you keep neglecting that fact. If the jutsu boosted speed, being countered wouldn't be a problem for Shinobi such as Kakashi, period. LoneNinja (talk) 04:25, October 19, 2018 (UTC)
 * You nust not have read the part where I acknowledged and then noted how Lee and Minato elaborated on how not being able to see a counter attack is a problem. Also, speed boost doesnt mean "so fast that no one can counter it. Kakashi attributed incredible speed to Chidori and nothing you nor the mods can say will change that. The manga cannot be more explicit and it shouldnt be ignored. LegionZero (talk) 07:25, October 19, 2018 (UTC)

@LegionZero You stated it better than I was going to, so kudos to you. You literally cited a direct quote from Minato where he clearly stated the problem was seeing the counter-attack, that the JUTSU provided speed and power, and your opponent completely ignored it. Next they will be claiming that when minato said kakashi has "power" he was talking about kakashi's own physical strength, and not the power of the jutsu itself. So, my advice, don't waste your time because A, no one is actually addressing the questions we raised, and two, the wiki already says what we already know, the speed at which the jutsu is performed is the greatest asset, and three I doubt anyone here will be looking at the evidence differently. Reading comprehension, gai & minato's statements and even kid kakashi's statement, as you said, is enough to show there is a speed boost involved and that is what is meant by " the speed is the greatest asset". So as far as I am concerned, many people out there can still come to the same conclusion. The idea that any technique is uncounterable just because it proves a speed boost is quite concerning, as clearly even suigetsu could react to Ayy while Ayy was coated in lightning armor version 1, which still provides Ayy with a noticeable speed boost. Version 1 Ayy literally helped lariat kisame's clone's head off and the clone commented that Ayy was really fast. Sasuke noticed that killer bee gained a speed boost in V1 gyuki cloak, yet sasuke could still react to him but with higher difficulty.CombatIQmatters (talk) 04:44, October 20, 2018 (UTC)