Talk:Truth-Seeking Ball

The four natures again
Since we discuss every possible addition to an article, I want to propose this: Hiruzen said that the TSB were made up of at least four natures and are similar to Onoki's Dust Release. Being similar to that, it's highly likely that they're made up of Fire, Earth and Wind. This leaves us with one missing nature. Here helps us another statement by Hiruzen: He says that the black orbs can change their substance similar to a fluid body. What missing nature is fluid? Correct: Water. So I think it's safe to say that the natures in this technique are Fire, Earth, Wind and Water. Whatcha say? • Seelentau 愛 議 10:34, August 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd honestly be down but I get a lot of flack for using logical conclusions in my arguments.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:08, August 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then again, logical conclusions these days can be everything as long as the OP finds them to be logical. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:12, August 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Seelentau, If party going that way i recall that he said at least four, which can be five(correct me if i'm wrong) -some kind of Rinneton(lol) Rage gtx (talk) 11:16, August 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, he did say at least, so we should at least add those we can be sure of by going from his other statements about the TSB. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:21, August 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Im convinced(Kuroiraikou (talk) 13:23, August 4, 2014 (UTC))


 * One thing: cannot lava(lava release) change its form like fluid without water? Rage gtx (talk) 13:29, August 4, 2014 (UTC)

You know my opinion, he was talking specifically about Obito's usage alone. But ignoring that, was the word fluid/liquid used? If so, then I wouldn't oppose us adding Wind to Obito's infobox.--Elveonora (talk) 13:46, August 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, because it's molten rock. But Hiruzen was talking about basic natures, not advanced ones. Elve, you're probably right, we haven't seen those weirdly formed TSB since Obito. What Hiruzen says is 液体のように形を変えて ekitai no yō ni katachi o kaete, which means similar to (a) fluid body (he, Obito) changes the form. • Seelentau 愛 議 14:12, August 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * If he actually used a kanji or whatever for fluid, then it was undoubtedly Water, because Lightning is more like a streak. So unless anyone opposes, go on and add Wind to Obito's infobox.--Elveonora (talk) 14:49, August 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * It would appear that, according to Black Zetsu's comments in chapter 689, Truth-Seeking Balls are made of Wind, Earth, Fire... Lightning, Yin-Yang, and... wood????? I guess in a way it's every basic element, but having a Kekkei Genkai as a basic component seems strange to me. Aeron Solo wuz here (If you wanna talk)  12:13, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

He was talking about Kaguya's, why isn't it obvious to people every user's TSB have different natures?--Elveonora (talk) 12:15, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Water
Since it contains Wood Release, shouldn't Water also be a component of the technique? Yatanogarasu (Talk) 06:30, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * I already talked it over with Ten Tailed Fox. Black Zetsu clearly separated earth and wood in his statement, so we'll wait for the Mangastream scan for more clarity, and the raws. WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 06:33, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

So how do we actually wanna play this?
Does every Truth-Seeking Ball have every element or only as much as the user?--TheUltimate3 (talk) 06:47, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Here's how I explained it to WindStar: "Wind, Fire, Lightning, Earth, Wood, and Yin-Yang were stated to belong to TSB. Zetsu was talking about Kaguya when he said "all natures and all kekkei genkai". It makes no sense for him to start listing natures only for him to then say it has everything. She has all kekkei genkai and natures, because, after all, not all kekkei genkai are natures and I highly doubt the TSB are made of Sharingans and Byakugans too. This also confirms she had the Sharingan because that is part of all kekkei genkai."


 * Take from that what you will. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 06:48, August 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure Naruto was only noted to have the Yang Release. Similar, Obito's orbs couldn't use the Yin-Yang Release until after he regain control of himself and consciously apply the nature transformation.—Steveo920 (Talk) 2:49, August 20, 2014


 * Doesn't work that way. We have confirmation on the natures required by TSB. No technique has ever worked the way you suggest it works and none of what you just said is actually stated or displayed by the manga. Tobirama clearly stated that Obito's orbs contained YYR, now Zetsu has given all of the TSB natures which includes YYR, and Naruto even said Kaguya's TSB was exactly like the ones floating behind him. All TSB have the natures we were just told. To dispute that any longer is no longer factual. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 06:55, August 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * Does every Mangekyo Sharingan have every technique or only as much as the user? • Seelentau 愛 議 06:53, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

I have no idea the context of that Seelentau. But I still question if we should go all "stick everything into TSB"now and Ten Tailed Fox black zetsu could have also just short listed the elements Kaguya had, not saying every TSB was those specific elements.w.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 06:58, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * In that case here is my suggestion, and I make this suggestion because we only have a few hours before a certain force shows up and this discussion gets inordinately stupid. We should list the specific natures we were given until MangaStream releases their version. If they don't contradict Panda, then TSB likely is made of all natures, since I agree with your point there, Ultimate. If they do contradict Panda, we'll leave up the current natures until Seel or Suzaku can get us a literal translation and advise us further. I also ask that we lock this page because edit warring will definitely be a thing in the morning. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 07:01, August 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * And @Foxie explained it pretty well to me. Well, Kaguya's TSB could start a new dimension according to BZ, not Naruto's (so far), and Naruto has Yang Release, I don't think we should add Yin Release to Naruto... WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 07:03, August 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * Every user can use a technique in different ways. Naruto and Minato's different uses for Rasengan for example. But Naruto quite clearly said that his TSB are the same as Kaguya's, so they're made up of the same natures. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 07:06, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

@Foxie, please don't go stupid. If every user's TSB are all natures, then Naruto has Wood Release, which he clearly doesn't--Elveonora (talk) 09:05, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * This. That's why TU3 removed the natures from the TSB article and locked it, for we are not too certain about the Tailed Beast Skill just yet. WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 09:07, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Mangastreams translation doesn't make this easier... • Seelentau 愛 議 09:42, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Mangastream makes it sound like BZ is talking about all advanced natures KKG rather than KKG in general. Also he says "their" suggesting she has Wood Release, while the 9 TB have the other advanced natures, as I suspected--Elveonora (talk) 09:48, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Why must she have Wood Release, though? • Seelentau 愛 議 10:45, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Fits her better than any of the Tailed Beasts, with Ten-Tails being wooden/plantish and the Shinju a tree and all--Elveonora (talk) 10:47, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Maybe in order to use the TSB one needs to combine a minimum of 4 natures which is what Obito did. Once Obito was able to control his powers better he was able to either add or focus on the Yin-Yang portion of the tech for its anti-ninjutsu effects. Kaguya, someone who probably who has had more time to get to know her powers(talking about the time after consuming fruit and before being sealed by her sons) and therefore know more of its in and outs and can use more elements and now non-elemental kkg in its make up. Just noting that each user has had the nine-tailed beast in them in some form, so one can draw the chakra natures from them when needed. Minimum 4 maximum of everything.Umishiru (talk) 14:54, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm 19824264165% positive that Naruto's TSB are only Wind Release.--Elveonora (talk) 15:27, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * If that's not a joke, then that's ABSURDLY ridiculous for a number of reasons. Riptide240 (talk) 15:31, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, it isn't. I already explained this thousand times, but just for you:


 * Naruto's TSB haven't turned anyone into dust yet (no fire and earth)
 * He hasn't used complex shapes with them like Obito did (no water)
 * He is yet to nullify ninjutsu with them (no YYR)
 * He expanded and threw his TSB as Tailed Beast Ball Rasenshuriken, which was Wind Release only
 * It can't be as simple as having Tailed Beasts inside him with those other natures, because as we have observed, he has to ask them each time he wants to use their natures. So if what you say were true, he would need to be asking them constantly to make his TSB and when the TSB are active, he wouldn't need to ask for their natures at the time (yet he did), because he would already have them.--Elveonora (talk) 15:37, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Didn't we decide that the Tailed Beast Ball Rasenshuriken wasn't a TSB technique? Not only that, but I'm curious as to how you think wind release can become a malleable, self-sustaining, physical structure with black colouration. --Atrix471 (talk) 15:38, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * TheUltimate3 did for personal reasons, not "we/us". the TBBR was clearly a TSB. It's black because the Ten-Tails' chakra is likely black? I'd even compare the TSB to Rasengan, just with the Ten-Tails' chakra. The natures it uses are whatever the user can or wants to use at a time.--Elveonora (talk) 15:45, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Your argument is, once again, ridiculously ABSURD.

1. Because he has made shapes(the staffs) they dont have to be complex

2. He hasn't used them directly on anyone so we wouldn't know if they could disintegrate. And if he did, it was against Madara and Kaguya who are probably immune to them just as naruto is

3. We don't know if they can nullify ninjutsu or not because, once again, he's fighting the two people who host the Ten Tails' power and are immune to it's effects, including nullification since the Juubi's power is mainly senjustu

4. And he asks for their natures because he can't use them seperately while it's in TSB mode/form. Massive debunks here Riptide240 (talk) 15:52, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes he has to ask the tailed beast for their chakra but that seems to be if he wants to use their unique abilities. He could be on an unconscious level merging a minimum of 4 elements for his TSB. Then again being that the tailed beasts are being treated as partners rather than chakra slaves like Madara, Obito, and Kaguya are/were doing, they could be mixing the elements for him for his TSB until he calls on one of them for whatever ability he needs. Then again seeing as Kaguya used the TSB get rid of the excess unstable chakra, maybe they act as stablisers for those with with the 9 tailed beasts inside of them by absorbing the chakra or being formed by the excess chakra being released outside the body.Umishiru (talk) 15:53, August 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * I'm just gonna let this fight work itself out. The page is already locked so go a head and tire yourselves out.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 15:54, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

@Riptide Massive debunks here--Elveonora (talk) 15:56, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * You can't assume he can form complex shapes
 * You can't assume he can disintegrate things
 * Youcan't assume he can nullify ninjutsu
 * Assumption

How am I assuming? Everything I said has been done or shown before.


 * He actually made the staffs
 * He's actually using them against Madara and Kaguya, who are immune to them
 * He actually can't nullify someone's ninjutsu if it's senjutsu like Madara's and kaguya's

And if you're saying that i'm assuming that he can because im saying he can't do it now, then you're assuming that he can't do it and making a completely baseless assumption when there should be no reason why he can't do what the others have done with their TSBs: Counter Debunk (idk why i find this fun) Riptide240 (talk) 16:03, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * You can't assume he can do something others can unless he does so. And there are reason why he can't. Do you want to assume that he has Wood Release too because Kaguya's do? Do you want to assume he has YYR because Obito's did, despite Naruto having gotten only Yang Release?--Elveonora (talk) 16:06, August 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * Ahem, slight correction. Zetsu has now put the YYR in Kaguya's TSB too. Never shown negating anything either. Carry on. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 16:10, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because Senjutsu users are immune to the negation. The difference is that we've been told that Kaguya's YYR, while we haven't about Naruto's.--Elveonora (talk) 16:12, August 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * Correction again. Naruto, in both translations, said her balls were exactly like his and Sasuke said the only difference was size. Carry on. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 16:13, August 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * Thank you, it's the same technique from the same source, no reason why it should vary from user to user. Both Obito and Madara used the shapes and nullification, Kaguya can now and Naruto stated that hers are the same as hisRiptide240 (talk) 16:18, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Same as his in appearance, so same technique, not same effects--Elveonora (talk) 16:19, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Wrong again because he said they were EXACTLY THE SAME just size difference. And neither of us would know if the effects were the same cause we just haven't seen Naruto nullify yet and disintegrate, and we probably won't since she's immune to it Riptide240 (talk) 16:22, August 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * @Elv: Except that wasn't what was said, but I digress. As Ultimate said, the article is locked, the RAWs will provide the answers, so I (and the others) have no need to convince you. Have a nice day. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 16:23, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * How can he tell they are exactly the same? Does he have a microscope or something? Or perhaps a Sharingan? Oh dear, both his and hers are black orbs so exactly the same in appearance. That doesn't mean they are the same in effect, there's no way for Naruto to tell that hers have Wood Release or anything for that matter inside--Elveonora (talk) 16:26, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * He's a sensor. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 16:28, August 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * Ah, but Sasuke can, and he said the only difference is... wait for it... size. Maybe try reading the chapter again? Might help refresh your memory. Also, Naruto says her balls are the same as his; not that they "look" the same. Big difference. But I have a job to go to. Later everyone. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 16:29, August 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * Also, BZ said ALL Kekkei Genkai (Nature Tranformations). MangekyoSasuke (talk) 16:31, August 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * @Elv Yes but I think Naruto and Sasuke would know since Sasuke has a Mangekyou and a Rinnegan and Naruto own those things as they are his own chakra constructs. And they didnt note any other differenceRiptide240 (talk) 16:32, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

You and I are the same, we are both human. You and I are the same, we are both male. You and I are the same, we are both editors here. You and I aren't the same when it comes to other things though. So "the same" doesn't necessarily mean in every single regard--Elveonora (talk) 16:33, August 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * Once again for clarity, Naruto is a sensor and they're his balls. Sasuke has an eternal Mangekyou and a Rinnegan. Plus, BZ told them everything about hers so Naruto's statement basically says that everything he heard BZ say applies to his own Riptide240 (talk) 16:35, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

I have had enough of this fanon bullshit that certain people have wrought here. Tell me exactly from where did Naruto get Wood Release and Yin-Yang Release. Until then, your word is completely valueless. Even if we assume he can use the Tailed Beasts' natures for his TSB, none of them are known for Wood Release or Yin-Yang Release.--Elveonora (talk) 16:42, August 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * 1. Plz calm down, this is just a small debate to come to a conclusion, not that serious

2. Where do you think Kaguya got Wood Release and lightning release? 3. Where do you think Obito and Madara got YYR? 4.Where did Madara got lightning Release and Storm release when we never saw him use any of those before hosting the juubi's chakra? 5. I'll answer that for you: they didn't until one moment that they all share, they gained the ten Tail's chakra, which is also senjutsu Naruto Has the ten tails' chakra by combining senjutsu with the nine tailed beasts, which is confirmed by Madara that he has the same power as him. That would very well explain where they got those natures from, since the Ten Tails and kaguya are the progenitors of chakra and (by default) there natures Riptide240 (talk) 16:55, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Until any of the 9 Tailed Beasts uses Wood Release and YYR, you can't say Naruto has it and that he's got it from them, because that you know, is speculation.--Elveonora (talk) 17:10, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * What im saying is thatthe nine tailed beasts chakra is now the ten tails chakra, and thats a fact Riptide240 (talk) 17:26, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not really, BZ mentioned Wood Release, YYR and 5 basic natures. He didn't mention Lava Release, Magnet Release, Ice Release and so on, obviously because Wood Release and YYR are in Kaguya but not the 9 Tailed Beasts--Elveonora (talk) 17:46, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't think BZ actually meant wood release comes into play on this. Wood release is composed of earth and water, and as the TSBs are an advanced nature in the first place, I don't think there's such a thing as making an advanced nature within an advanced nature. I think he was simply illustrating that it encompasses all natures and is the highest level of nature transformation. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 18:32, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

Yup Riptide240 (talk) 21:08, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

And either way i already debunked your theory on Naruto's TSBs being wind release only wrong so..Riptide240 (talk) 21:13, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * One cannot "debunk" @Elveonora. He'll keep coming. WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 21:18, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * I didn't see you debunk anything--Elveonora (talk) 21:18, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * It got debunked when we found out that Naruto said his TSBs were the same as Kaguya's. And Wehn I said that you're granted extra chakra natures when you host the Juubi's chakra. It's not possible for his TSBs to only be wind release since t requires at least 4 natures Riptide240 (talk) 21:22, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * It doesn't, Hiruzen was analyzing Obito's TSB, there's no evidence all TSB are at least 4 natures--Elveonora (talk) 11:48, August 21, 2014 (UTC)

Well for one, they all can achieve the same feats and share the same dynamics. You're just creating these bullshit excuses because your refusing simple evidence Riptide240 (talk) 19:56, August 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * I haven't seen Naruto achieve a feat with them the others did yet.--Elveonora (talk) 20:28, August 21, 2014 (UTC)

Elements
Should we not add some elements to the truth seaking balls... cuz this chapter said some elements... are we just ingnoring this ? --Matianu.alexandruionut (talk) 19:59, August 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Waiting for the raws, since one translation implied they contain all natures.--BeyondRed (talk) 20:05, August 21, 2014 (UTC)

I guess we can wait for viz... but its pretty obivous... Matianu.alexandruionut (talk) 10:00, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

Why the do people assume every user's TSB are made of the same elements, like where the hell does that assumption come from? There's no evidence for that, in fact there's contrary evidence to that belief which I provided already.--Elveonora (talk) 10:23, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Are you aware that the same reasoning can be applied to Asura's Jinchuriki mode? • Seelentau 愛 議 10:25, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Partially, yes. Black Orbs aren't necessarily TSB. They may be TSB, TBB or even Chibaku Tensei. But we know Ashura didn't have Rinnegan, co that cuts the last and the other two require him to have possessed TB chakra in one way or another.

In case of Naruto's usage of TSB, we haven't seen him achieve these feats:
 * crazy complex shapes like Obito did
 * turning things to Dust
 * negating ninjutsu

We also know another thing, none of the 9 Tailed Beasts has Wood Release to our knowledge of course, but we can't assume they do. So there's no way for Naruto to have obtained Wood Release. Another thing, why would it be just Wood Release, YYR and 5 basic natures? Why not Ice Release, Lava Release, Explosion Release and so on? Obviously, because Kaguya's are made of Wood Release, not Naruto's.--Elveonora (talk) 10:30, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Or the black orbs are something entirely different. We don't know. Also, as long as I haven't translated that part of the chapter, please refrain from adding anything about this to any article. • Seelentau 愛 議 10:32, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * You may see me adding or removing anything to/from articles 2-3 times in a year, so in case that was targeted at me specifically, you don't have to worry--Elveonora (talk) 10:34, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

Didnt Naruto said that kaguya's gudoudama is the same as him but the difference is that her's its bigger... dont tell me all the elements makes that gudoudama bigger cuz we saw kaguya get alot of chakra from the shinobi that are in MT so that boost came from there....

So i think Naruto has somehow all elements and all the advance elelements... maybe he can combine bijuu powers instead of using thme one by one... and this is how thing thing happens... still i will wait for the raw and viz Matianu.alexandruionut (talk) 10:46, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * You guys may be seeing too much into what "the same" means. Because yes, they are the same, both his and hers are black orbs, hers just bigger, so in that way they are the same. That doesn't mean they are the same in every conceivable way.--Elveonora (talk) 10:50, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Imagine this: Black Zetsu didn't mean the TBs when he said "their natures", but the people trapped in MT. How about that? • Seelentau 愛 議 10:55, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Why mention only Wood Release then? There are Lava Release, Storm Release users and a Dust Release user.--Elveonora (talk) 10:56, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Obito's, Madara's and Naruto's TSB are the same, the only difference is Yin-Yang Release. And Kaguya's TSB differ from the other users with Wood Release part. Kaguya's TSB is the only one that said to start a new dimention, the Wood Release may play part in it considering the life giving properties that WR have.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 11:01, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * I have no idea, but I'm thining that Wood Release is somewhat different from the other advanced natures... maybe it's related to Hashirama's status as ex-Asura reincarnation or so... just a thought. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:03, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

@MMERCURIOUS: "they are the same, the only difference is Yin-Yang Release and Wood Release" so they aren't the same. Make up your mind? :P If they can be different with YYR and WR, then so can they with other natures. There's no reason to believe Naruto's TSB are made of any other nature than Wind Release.--Elveonora (talk) 11:08, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Elve: I mean that Naruto's TSB are made of 4 elements only. Madara's and Obito TSB are made of 4 elements and Yin-Yang Release. While Kaguya's TSB are made of 4 elements and Yin-Yang and Wood.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 11:12, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * But can you present any evidence that Naruto's are made of 4 elements?--Elveonora (talk) 11:14, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Can you present any evidence that says Naruto's isn't made up of 4 elements? Because Obito and Madara had only shown the Yin-Yang Release.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:18, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * The only reason that we couldn't see the pulverizing effects, its because TSB doesn't work on Senjutsu and Rikudou Chakra.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 11:19, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Ulti, Yes, I can and I already did:

Any objections? @MERCURIOUS, I know that well, but do you have evidence that Naruto's TSB would pulverize if he were to clash against a non-Senjutsu user? You don't, because he is yet to--Elveonora (talk) 11:23, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Dust Release effect yet to be observed (no Fire and Earth)
 * Super malleability yet to be observed (no Water)
 * Ninjutsu nullification yet to be observed (no Yin-Yang Release, because he is missing Yin Release, since you know, he was given Yang Release only by Hagoromo)
 * He expanded his TSB and threw it as TBBRS (yes, it happened)
 * @Elve: No, I don't have evidence, but you don't have as well. That's why we are thinking they are the same but without YYR, because its more logical than creating TSB from Wind Release only. Also, about Obito. The super malleability you're talking about, we saw it only when the TT was controlling Obito, in other words it wasn't Obito. Other than that the Water Release isn't part of the TSB.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 11:30, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Dust Release effect haven't been observed: Please tell me when it was observed in Obito and Madara's tailed beast balls? Because unless I'm mistaken, I remember seeing them blow things up, break things, and nullify ninjutsu, but never break down stuff into nothing.
 * Super malleability: Naruto has turned his Truth-Seeking Balls into rods and platforms. He may have not gotten crazy with em, but he can manipulate their shape.
 * I would assume the fact that Madara instantly switched to throwing senjutsu at Naruto and Sasuke the moment he saw Naruto had his own Truth-Seeking Balls would have told anyone that meant that "regular stuff is just gonna get No-Sold" but clearly that was to complex for some people. Regardless, everything that they've been fighting so far has been Senjutsu related, and you can't nullify senjutsu.
 * While I still don't see a Truth-Seeking Ball turning into a Tailed Beast Ball, that doesn't exactly help your argument considering we've seen him create 9 other Tailed Beast powered Rasenshuriken. If anything that feeds more into "not just wind" argument.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:32, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hiruzen compared its effect to Dust Release and then Obito proceeded to turn Hiruzen's head into dust close-range
 * Yeah, but he hasn't done this: http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140305211516/naruto/images/8/80/Obito_stops_Sasuke_and_Naruto.png
 * Yes, YYR can't nullify Senjutsu, but can you assume he could even if he fought a non-Senjutsu user?
 * We didn't see Naruto talk to the Tailed Beast to fuel his TSB with their natures tho--Elveonora (talk) 11:36, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * I see. He does compare it to Dust Release. Saying "Similar to Dust Release" isn't the same as "Using Dust Release" but I'll give it a nod.
 * Doesn't matter. He has shown to be able to manipulate the Truth-Seeking Ball. Just because he doesn't go over-the-top with it doesn't mean he ain't doing it. So no points.
 * Yes I can, just as you are assuming he can't. But as I said, the second Madara saw Naruto with this mode, he switched to Senjutsu techniques, which means he had to do so for a reason. Common sense would have it that "Those orbs can No-Sell it" but like I said, that doesn't require Kishimoto whispering lovingly into our ears. So half a point.
 * Ok now I am officially lost on this one, as such to help your argument out I'm electing to ignore the Truth-Seeking Balls/Rasenshuriken mess and focus on the first three points.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:44, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, about the Chakra arms-like TSB, Madara didn't do as well. And the last point, only Tailed Beast Bomb Rasen Shuriken is used with TSB.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 11:48, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

@Ulti, It's not my job to refute Naruto's TSB aren't X or Y. It's "your" (plural) to prove they are. I'm just wondering if you can say that he undoubtedly can do those things and sleep peacefully at night afterwards. Because "gut/feeling" and "logic" aren't facts and I'm sure you agree with me on that. It's simply safer not to state what his TSB are or aren't in my opinion until we know for sure--Elveonora (talk) 11:52, August 22, 2014 (UTC)


 * Almost nothing I can say won't make me sound like an asshole so I'm just gonna end it with Slowpoke.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:57, August 22, 2014 (UTC)


 * No @Elv, its not just his job. Its up to both parties to prove either side of any argument. And at the present moment, evidence is on TU3's side. There are 2 prior examples of TSB. There is no concrete evidence (or any evidence at all) that Naruto's are different. There are blatant statements that say that they're the same. Until there is evidence to the contrary, the logical and scientific thing to do (Ask anyone who works in a field that uses the scientific method) is to assume that Naruto's is the same until strictly proven otherwise. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 18:23, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hiruzen specifically stated that the Balls were made from at least four different natures and that they were beyond the kekkei tōta. Where Elve gets it in his head that each TSB user has a different composition is beyond me. Hey, maybe Lava Release is only Fire and Earth for Son Goku and is actually different for Dodai and Kurotsuchi since their lava produces quicklime and rubber rather than actual lava like Son Goku. Do you see @Elve how insane that logic is? What pile of evidence upon which do you assume that each TSB use is composed of different natures depending on the user? Because Obito didn't negate Edo Tensei for all of two chapters before he started doing so? That constitutes proof? Because now we have Tobirama and Black Zetsu putting YYR in a TSB and Zetsu even backed up Hiruzen's statement by proving that in fact more than four natures are required (Hiruzen said at least which means he knew there could be more). Your evidence is ziltch. None. The evidence has always been on our side. It was never our burden to prove because the manga backed us up from day one. All TSBs are the same in so much as all Lava Release require the same combinations, all Ice Release, all Storm Release, etc. To insist that Naruto's is only wind has no factual basis in manga. None. If there is, you could provide references, but none exist, so you can't. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 21:46, August 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * We can probably give Naruto all five elements (he has extra elements because of the tailed beasts anyway), but at least not Yin Release. One, that was given to Sasuke; and two, Naruto has yet to negate ninjutsu (which requires Yin-Yang Release). The TSB are composed of those elements BZ mentioned, but when Yin-Yang Release is applied, then can the user negate ninjutsu. Naruto hasn't done so, therefore I think every nature BZ mentioned should be added but Yin Release for Naruto.

Edit: Also I'm not sure about Wood Release just yet. Unlike Kaguya, Naruto didn't fuse with a tree. Five elements and Yang I think would apply to Naruto. WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 22:25, August 22, 2014 (UTC)

And this is the major flaw of this wiki, people are biased. Naruto is your favorite character Foxie, isn't he? Being a fan is one thing, being obsessed another. I bet you would like to accredit him every single technique, power, kkg, feat, everything. Yeah, why not? Lets state he has the Rinnegan... evidence? The Ten-Tails saw it inside of him!!! Lets state he is a medical ninja, evidence? He can recreate organs!!! Lets state he can do conceivably ANYTHING, why? Because he said so himself!!! There wouldn't be a single thing in existence that Naruto can't do if there weren't people like me. And please, don't start denying, I've clearly noticed the bias. Everything Naruto does it taken out of proportion. "Oh Naruto farted, that must be a new super secret SSS rank Wind Release technique, because he is the main character, so lets give him the extra credit he doesn't deserve to prove how unbiased we are"--Elveonora (talk) 11:19, August 23, 2014 (UTC)

But just to calm down those of you who say I haven't provided any actual evidence (despite having provided many) then here the hand didn't turn into dust. Naruto has shown jack's shit with the TSB compared to others--Elveonora (talk) 11:26, August 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Elveonora, Naruto has the same Truth-Seeking Ball as Kaguya. It was explicitly said this chapter. The only difference was the size. 'But Naruto hasnt' done these things', since he hasn't used his TSB offensively means he can't use them in those ways? You've been fighting tooth and nail to remove every elemental ninjutsu but Wind from Naruto, and yet you call everyone else but yourself biased?--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 05:13, August 24, 2014 (UTC)

Here is what i got from a japanease translator and i quote "all gudo damas are onmyoton-that creates anything from nothing. kaguya has exclusive access to chakras of all those under the mugentsukuyomi. naruto doesnt and won't. so their gudodamas are different in size, scale power, etc." so this means Naruto has Yin Release but not all the other elements Matianu.alexandruionut (talk) 05:51, August 24, 2014 (UTC)

@SSM, good job at ignoring the evidence I provided, just like others. And that's the point, since he hasn't done those things yet, you guys shouldn't assume he can. Once branches start sprouting from Naruto's rectum among other things, I will add him myself, until then, please, don't assume.--Elveonora (talk) 12:14, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * You haven't provided any evidence. You're assuming that since Naruto hasn't done all that with his Gudodama, he can't, thus shouldn't get any listing of elements within the TSB. Its the same technique, with the same properties. The manga flat out said so, with just Kaguya's being larger than Naruto's, Madara's, or Obito's. Madara nor Obito created the staffs Naruto uses, or the platforms he creates, does that mean they cannot? Of course they can, like how Naruto can create shields, sphere defenses, and negate ninjutsu since its a property of TSB itself. In essence, your bias against Naruto is making you unable to make a sound judgement. Its a repeat of Naruto getting the elements of his Biju all over again.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 18:46, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * I did, but go on about being ignorant. Don't make this religion please. Don't assume something is there, it's much safer to assume it isn't there unless flat out proven it is.--Elveonora (talk) 18:51, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm being ignorant? No, YOU are. You're assuming Naruto can't do something even though he has the same technique, in the same place and style as Madara and Obito's when they have gotten control over the Shinju. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. Manga flat out says Naruto's Gudodama is the same as Kaguya's, thus he gets all the elements in it. You honestly don't see yourself as being biased, Elveonora?--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 19:13, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * No SuperSaiyaMan he doesn't. But this back and forth is obviously gonna solve nothing so unless either of you have something new to add, stop with the insults.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 19:16, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * He's denying what the manga, our primary source of information about this, has said on the Truth-Seeking Ball. I haven't been insulting him at all. Ultimate, the manga makes it clear that Gudodama has all those elements and thus Naruto should get them.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 19:19, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * And Elevonora, that image you posted? Question: are either Black Zetsu or Kaguya reincarnated shinobi? No, they're living beings. As we saw with Sakura, living beings are able to recover from being stabbed or pinned by Truth-Seeking Ball while Edotensei shinobi, being comprised of ninjutsu, aren't, due to the Yin-Yang effect negating them.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 19:25, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Naruto has all five elements to use TSBs (having the tailed beasts supports this as well). Why he only has wind according to @Elveo doesn't make sense. At all. But Naruto doesn't have all of what Kaguya has. Naruto doesn't have Yin Release solely because he has yet to negate ninjutsu and plus, Yin Release was given to Sasuke. Naruto probably doesn't have Wood Release either because unlike Kaguya, he didn't fuse with a tree. WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 19:32, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Honestly using the "No Assumption" Mantra, the Truth-Seeking Balls have all the elements listed this chapter and damn what Elveonora says. But I would rather not stuff the infobox full of icons, that'd just be annoying.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 19:38, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Mkay. We'll just wait for the raws I guess. All we know is that TSBs use all five elements. The extras (Wood, Yin, etc) for now, vary between users (hopefully) until the raws appear. WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 19:41, August 24, 2014 (UTC)

@SSM, define "the same" you don't know the extent of sameness the author meant. They may be the same only as far as appearance goes. I am the same as you, human, male, wikia editor and so on, but there are many difference between the two of us. When the extent of "same" isn't specified, don't assume it's to be taken as same in every sense. And I wasn't talking about the YYR effect, but Dust Release effect, which Naruto's also lack. @Ulti, thank you for treating me like an inanimate object. Yeah, screw what Elveonora says, screw reason. @Windstar: "all we know is that TSBs use all five elements" we don't know that at all--Elveonora (talk) 19:42, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, I don't think Naruto's TSBs only have Wind Release like you suggest. But you're right. Even that is an assumption. All of us are assuming things until that raws come out. WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 19:45, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * When did Naruto's TSB go up against a Ninjutsu to negate them? Unlike Madara or Obito, he wasn't fighting Edo Tensei shinobi so we could see that effect. The only difference said between his Gudodama and Kaguya's were just pure size.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 19:46, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * But if the TSBs require Yin-Yang Release as you suggest, then wouldn't Hagoromo give Naruto the Yin Release necessary to use them? WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 19:48, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * And Hiruzen didn't say that TSB is exactly like Dust Release, he said that is a lot like it since it uses more than two elements, but beyond Kekkei Tota. Sakura is stabbed by Madara's TSB but she isn't turned to dust, so your argument is fundamentally flawed.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 19:49, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * So you want to state that Naruto has Yin Release based on that? Sakura isn't a ninjutsu. She's a living person. The Edo Tensei itself is a ninjutsu, that's why Minato's arms wouldn't regenerate. Yin-Yang TSBs negate ninjutsu, not living human beings. WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 19:57, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes. Unlike Madara or Obito, he never tested his Gudodama against Edo Tensei shinobi which are comprised of ninjutsu. Madara's stabbing of Sakura with his Gudodama shows that living people CAN recover from it and there is no 'dust' effect at all like Dust Release. Hence why when Kaguya's arm was impaled by Naruto's Gudodama, it didn't disintegrate. --SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 19:58, August 24, 2014 (UTC)

The Dust Release effect and YYR ninjutsu negation are two different phenomena. Obito turned Hiruzen's head into dust before he started using YYR with them. And Madara doesn't have Wind Release, so of course his wouldn't have the dust effect--Elveonora (talk) 19:55, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Obito never had Wind Release, so why do you say he wouldn't have the dust effect? Hiruzen's comparison to Dust Release was to show the number of elements used simultaneously and then show Dust Release doesn't compare since Gudodama uses at least FOUR elements compared to Gudodama's three. Your argument is fundamentally flawed Elveonora.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 20:00, August 24, 2014 (UTC)

Dust Release is three-dimensional shapes that had everything inside of them turn into dust. By the same principle, TSB turn everything they touch into dust. So, the place where Sakura was stabbed was pulverized, not the whole body. You’re mistaking the All-Killing Ash Bones with TSB.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 20:02, August 24, 2014 (UTC)

It wasn't to show the number of elements, he compared the effect to dust release, Naruto's don't have it. And Obito's used at least 4 at the time, that doesn't mean everyone's do. Not sure why do you guys apply Hiruzen's analysis of Obito's TSB to everyone. @MERCURIOUS, except not even the place Sakura was hit to was turned to dust. That alone proves Obito, Madara and Naruto's TSB all have varying effects--Elveonora (talk) 20:05, August 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * Elvenora's argument is fundamentally flawed because he wants to use a single chapter as evidence against every single chapter since then. And when all else fails, make up some bogus claim about all four cases of Gudodama resulting in different elemental combinations, even though we've been told now by two separate sources that Yin-Yang Release is involved with more than four different elements. Whoops, I wasn't supposed to use facts though. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 20:05, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Foxie's argument is fundamentally flawed because he wants to use a single character as evidence for other characters. And when all else fails, make up some bogus claim about all of them being the same.--Elveonora (talk) 20:07, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, because every instance of Shadow Clone Technique is also different between users. Or every other technique. Its pathetic, but you will lose in the end. Raws are out tomorrow. I am eagerly awaiting them. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 20:08, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Fox, can you make a ruling to end this? Elveonora, you're fighting tooth and nail for something you don't want, ignoring evidence and claiming things. Hiruzen's analysis was solely to show that Gudodama has more than three elements which puts it beyond Kekkei Tota which uses three. He even goes to say that unlike Dust Release, Gudodama can be used offensively and defensively in his analysis.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 20:09, August 24, 2014 (UTC)

You have a point, @SuperSaiyaMan. Naruto hasn't negated ninjutsu because he hasn't had the chance to, but if he has Yin Release, then what would be the point of Sasuke? All we know is that Hagoromo gave Naruto Yang and Sasuke Yin, if Naruto has them both already, then there would be no point in having Sasuke contribute toward sealing Kaguya. But then again, just because one has Yin Release doesn't mean they have the moon seal. So.... hm... MangaPanda had Naruto saying it was "like" the balls on his back (meaning similar, not the same) but Mangastream said it was the same. We'll see what the raws and Viz translation have in store then. WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 20:09, August 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * Sasuke has the Six Paths Yin Power and Naruto has the Six Paths Yang Power. What does that have to do with Naruto having the Yin Release for Yin-Yang? It is the Six Paths Yin Power and the Six Paths Yang Power together that seal Kaguya, not Yin and Yang Release. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 20:10, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not to mention that Sasuke, possessing the Rinnegan, will be able to use Yang Release and Yin-Yang Release with future practice. Naruto possessing Yin and Yin-Yang doesn't change things.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 20:13, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Foxie, we already know what the raws will say, they don't change anything.--Elveonora (talk) 20:11, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Foxie, I already pointed out that just because someone has Yin Release doesn't mean that person has the moon seal. I'll reiterate: We'll wait for the raws. WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 20:13, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Elve: The TSB turn what they enter into dust, not the whole body. You can consider that the TSB take the place of the flesh completely.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 20:12, August 24, 2014 (UTC)

@Merc, I know, but Madara's didn't turn Sakura's stomach into dust, nor did Naruto's Kaguya's hand. I've given plenty of manga evidence that the effects and uses differ between users, if people want to be ignorant, I'm done here, I will go somewhere where my opinion is actually valued--Elveonora (talk) 20:15, August 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * That's because Obito's expanded and exploded when turning people into dust. I just went back and reread the chapters. They pierce just like Madara's, but when he expands them while piercing a foe, that's when they turned their bodies into dust. Madara did not do that to Sakura, therefore, it wouldn't have turned her to dust. End of that argument. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 20:16, August 24, 2014 (UTC)

Good point, @SuperSaiyaMan. Sasuke actually can have Yang Release eventually. But we'll see what the raws say. WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 20:18, August 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * @Foxie, yes, but how can you be so sure Madara could expand and explode them? As you say he didn't do so, so perhaps he couldn't--Elveonora (talk) 20:19, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * ...why can't he? Madara achieved a Rikudo Senjutsu greater than Obito did. So has Naruto. You're just making a lot of assumptions due to you not wanting Naruto to have these elements.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 20:21, August 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * Because Madara changed their shape on multiple occasions (so has Naruto) and that's all Obito did. Go see what he did to Tobirama, Hiruzen, and Minato. Tobirama, cut him in two. Hiruzen, stabbed him and then changed the shape, turning him to dust. Minato, cut him with the staff. He did everything Madara has already displayed. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 20:22, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Foxie, just to answer your sarcastic remark about Shadow Clones above, yes, not even they are the same. Lightning Release Shadow Clone Water clone Wood Clone same technique with added flavor, just like TSB--Elveonora (talk) 20:24, August 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * Naruto has also done everything they have done with his TSB, but he did them against Senjutsu users, so of course no effects would be shown. He cut Kaguya's arm off with one (just like Obito did to Minato) and Madara switched to Senjutsu the instant he saw Naruto with TSB because he knew what would happen if he didn't. Naruto's TSB were also shown to cancel out Madara's Senjutsu lightning, showing they have the same durability as Obito's. Your arguments are bogus and unfounded by any evidence whatsoever. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 20:25, August 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * Edit: No, my sadly mistaken friend, they are not. Those are derived techniques. Not the Shadow Clone Technique itself. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 20:26, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wait, so Kaguya is suddenly a Senjutsu user, eh? Nice flip-flopping there. Call me crazy, but I recall you removing her as user of Six Paths Senjutsu. But when it supports your argument, she suddenly happens to be a user, how curious. For Shadow Clones, yes those are derived, but at their core they are shadow clones--Elveonora (talk) 20:28, August 24, 2014 (UTC)

I was referring to Madara. Try to keep up, Elve. Edit: And I don't care what derived techniques are at their core. Gudodama cannot be derived from Gudodama. They're all the same because it is the same technique. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20:29, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * You said users and then went on to mention Kaguya's arm. If Kaguya doesn't have Senjutsu, then Naruto should be able to nullify her techniques, unless he can't. So either Kaguya has Senjutsu (that's why he can't) or Kaguya may not have Senjutsu but Naruto by extension doesn't have YYR. Karma is a bitch, right?--Elveonora (talk) 20:32, August 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * Not at all. He cut off her arm. Same as Obito did. Proof enough for me. Obito didn't nullify two techniques after he gained control of himself. One of Tobirama's and one of Naruto's because he didn't have the reaction time, so Naruto not being able to intercept her Ash Bones, the only technique she's used on him, isn't proof. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 20:34, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Since you appear to be an expert on black balls, I suppose that you shouldn't have trouble explaining from where did Naruto get Wood Release and Yin-Yang Release, because none of the Shurikens he threw using each Tailed Beasts' power were either. Since you insist on Naruto having those, you must know of course--Elveonora (talk) 20:41, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * When you can explain to me where Madara and Obito got both Yin-Yang Release and, in Madara's case, Storm Release from, then I'll happily explain where Naruto got Wood Release and YYR. I think we both know, difference is, I'm not afraid to admit it. He has it the same way Madara has them and the same way Obito has them. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 20:52, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Madara taught Obito YYR, about chapter 600 or so. Chomei's Rasenshuriken may be Storm Release, or Madara just happened to have Storm Release kekkei genkai from his parents. There's not even a vague explanation for Wood Release though--Elveonora (talk) 20:55, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Nice assumptions, but you asked for proof, so I asked for the same. There isn't a vague explanation for either. I asked you where Madara and Obito got YYR. Madara got it from nowhere. No explanation of how, when, or why. Same with Storm Release. You have no idea what Chōmei can do, or how Madara pulled it out of his ass, so you can't say with any certainty. Similarly, I think Naruto got both from having the Six Paths Power along with all nine bijū inside of him, but I know he has them because he used a TSB which two separate and unrelated sources say has YYR within them, two separate and unrelated sources say have four or more natures within them, and one source has been so kind as to even list them for us. See how that works? I don't have to assume anything. He's using the same technique as Madara and Obito: Fact. All three were called Gudodama so they're the same. He can preform the same feats as Obito and Madara: Fact. Madara switched to senjutsu the moment he activated them, where he hadn't used any prior, because of course, only senjutsu works against the YYR effect of Gudodama. He cut Kaguya's arm off with one, just like Obito did to Minato. He can shape them into various shapes for various purposes just like the other two did. Naruto said they were the same and Sasuke, a Rinnegan user, said the only difference was size: Fact. And multiple sources listed above confirmed the other information. What do you have? Your opinion and feelings. I think I know how this will turn out, but knowing you, you'll keep arguing it, so what's the point? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 21:01, August 24, 2014 (UTC)

Madara could use Izanagi, so that's how he could use YYR by extension. And yes, 2 separate sources stated that Obito and Kaguya's have YYR, in fact Obito's not even having YYR originally, proving the natures vary. And one source stated "at least 4 natures" another 5 natures + YYR + Wood Release, that's 6-8 natures? Next thing you tell me is that Hashirama had Six Paths power since he could use Wood Release. Why do I even bother. Go on then, list Naruto as Wood Release and YYR user. Good luck explaining that each time a visitor asks where he got them from.--Elveonora (talk) 21:13, August 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * No visitor has asked, because the visitors bother reading the manga and connecting the dots like the good readers they are, and already know this. This was taught to us in elementary school. Madara having Izanagi doesn't say where he got YYR from, it just proved he had it at the time he used it. I don't care about your Hashirama remark, because I was only using that as an example of why your assumptions fail to live up to fact. Your saying that Obito's TSB didn't have YYR in them from the start has no basis in fact. Just because there is an absence of evidence does not mean it is evidence of absence, and Obito consistently used the YYR effect of those balls (as did the rest of the TSB users) from that chapter forward. I do have to concur with you on one point though. Don't worry. Tomorrow we will get the RAWS, confirm the natures, and add them, as we would with anything else. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 21:18, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Over my dead body we will.--Elveonora (talk) 21:25, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Enough Elveonora. You've lost this debate. You're taking it personally.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 21:26, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Has @Elveonora ever lost a debate? He'll keep coming. WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 21:28, August 24, 2014 (UTC)

Over his dead body it will be, then (metaphorically speaking that is). If the RAWS confirm it, we will add it. He hasn't a choice in that matter because that's what the manga says and the clear majority has formed a consensus over. That is all. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 21:31, August 24, 2014 (UTC)

Let me say this. Obito said that he ATTAINED the power of the predecessor of the Shinobi. This statement is what made Tobirama think that Obito is using YYR to negate Ninjutsu, before that he was only saying that its weird that Minato's arm hasn't regenerated without knowing the cause of it. This imply that the YYR came along with the Gudoudama. Just because Obito knows one YYR technique, doesn't mean that he knows everything about YYR. Other than this it's not like Madara taught Obito how to apply YYR on a Gudoudama when both of them used it for the first time in their life when they got the Rikudou Senjutsu. Also @TTF: You said that Naruto cut Kaguya's arm with TSB, didn't he do it with a Chakra Arm? And why everyone saying 5 basic elements instead of four.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 21:39, August 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * Because there are five basic elements: Wind, Water, Fire, Earth, and Lightning. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 21:41, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not this. I mean BZ said there are 4 basic elements, YYR and Wood Release in the TSB. But now everyone saying it's five basic elements, YYR and WR.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 21:43, August 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * BZ said that Fire Release, Wind Release, Earth Release, Lighting Release, Wood Release (which has Water, the last of the five basic natures within it), and YYR were apart of the Gudodama. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 21:45, August 24, 2014 (UTC)
 * If the reasoning is that he omitted Water because it's in Wood, then why mention Earth separately?--Elveonora (talk) 21:46, August 24, 2014 (UTC)

Not saying I agreed with it (look up, I make the same argument), but he asked why people were saying all five basic natures, so I explained. I too think there is a distinction if BZ mentions Earth and Wood separately. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 21:49, August 24, 2014 (UTC)

Considering the raws are unlikely to come out anytime soon, what does the viz say about Kaguya's natures and kkg whatever?--Elveonora (talk) 10:10, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Kekkei Moura
This term is used by Viz media for Kaguya's Gudodama. Has anyone here taken a look at the Japanese? Perhaps we should assume this term applies to previous Gudodama as well, and the hierarchy goes Kekkei genkai - Kekkei touta - Kekkei Moura ? Wreiad (talk) 17:36, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * What? I don't have the raw yet, but if that's true, it would be quite a nice piece of information (for people like me who are interested in the chakra mechanics). 網羅 mōra means comprising, by the way. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:38, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * I can confirm this. Viz says that the TSB is a "expansive kekkei moura that encompasses every nature: wind, fire, earth, lightning, wood, shadow, and light." — The exact quote is as follows: "The Biju are now stable, plus Mother has even produced a Truthseeker Orb. An expansive Kekkei Moura Truth-Seeking Orb that contains every nature. Wind, Fire, Earth, Lightning, Wood, Shadow, and Light." ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 17:39, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Kinda seems like a large thing to just completely miss.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:42, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Interesting if true that the viz used the term "kekkei" also Yin and Yang are separated, so no Yin-Yang and also as previously stated, it omits Water--Elveonora (talk) 17:44, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * The scanlations all said the same thing. That it comprised all natures and bloodlines. It seems to me like they literally translated "kekkei" to mean bloodlines and "mōra" to mean "comprising [all]" and didn't realize Kishi intended it to be a new term. I'd take Viz more seriously than the scanlations, but let's see what Seel's RAWs yeild. If this is true, we may finally be able to lay this nonsense about the TSB's natures to rest. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 17:45, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * (Fourth attempt) I see. Well, I'd be glad if that's true, but I think it's most likely a bad translation. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:46, August 25, 2014 (UTC)

@Foxie, I just pointed out that it doesn't say Yin-Yang. That would be "Onmyōton" rather than "Inton and Yoton" so what with that?--Elveonora (talk) 17:47, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * It actually doesn't use the "Release" suffix, but I'd actually say I agree with you this time. Yin and Yang produce the ninjutsu-nullification rather than Yin-Yang Release. That's how I see it anyways, but that's another issue entirely. Keep in mind though that it does say "comprising all natures" which would include Yin-Yang. Also of note is Naruto and Sasuke's dialogue. It is as follows:
 * Naruto: That thing's just like the spheres behind me!
 * Sasuke: Yeah, but a lot bigger! And its still growing!
 * This confirms what was previously stated. Naruto's spheres, confirmed by both he and Sasuke, are the same as Kaguya's the only difference being size. Once we confirm with the RAWS, Naruto should be added to the remaning natures. There is no more debating it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 17:51, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * I won't be a thorn in your foot anymore. Go on, list him as Wood user. I will just prepare some popcorn and wait until the author himself disproves so--Elveonora (talk) 17:54, August 25, 2014 (UTC)


 * Another side note: Viz says "Light and Dark". That can either mean "light and dark" or their term "light and dark release". Only the RAWS can differentiate. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 17:55, August 25, 2014 (UTC)

Not to play the devil's advocate, but…couldn't Naruto have said: "what the-that looks like the balls on my back!"-- JOA20 17:55, August 25, 2014 (UTC)

@Foxie, Tobirama said Yin-Yang Release, yet if Kaguya's say Yin and Yang separately. That would be kinda conflicting, don't you think?--Elveonora (talk) 17:56, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * The thing about the [the same] issue is that Naruto can't possibly know what Kaguya's TSB is made up of. He just saw that it's a black orb and says that it's the same as his black orb: black and orby. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:57, August 25, 2014 (UTC)


 * @Seel: He actually can sense it, proven when he could differentiate the chakras of the tailed beast when they went into Obito, and Sasuke, a Rinnegan user, can see the varying colors of chakra and he confirmed it too. Confirmed. @Elve: You misunderstand me. I was saying Viz says "light and dark". Their term for Yin-Yang Release is "Light and Dark Release" so until we see the raws, we won't know if they're separate or together. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 17:59, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * I understood. I'm just wondering what will you do if the raws say Yin and Yang separately, because Tobirama said Yin-Yang together--Elveonora (talk) 18:01, August 25, 2014 (UTC)

I will leave them separate. Yin and Yang act together to nullify ninjutsu. It matters not if they are Yin-Yang or are just put together as Yin and Yang. The point of it all was that both were present. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 18:02, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Didn't we agree that we wait for the raws? You went and added it without waiting for my translation. That's uncool, man. VIZ doesn't have the last word. • Seelentau 愛 議 18:03, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wait, Seelentau is right.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:04, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * But since Foxie already went on, he might as well add Lightning and Yin since he did Wood. Also there seems to be something fishy going on, since it says Wood, with Water omitted, but Earth present also despite that--Elveonora (talk) 18:06, August 25, 2014 (UTC)


 * That particular mystery might be fixed in the volume release. That does seem rather odd, but who knows, maybe Kishi just felt like ****ing with us. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 18:08, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * As I stated once before, perhaps Black Zetsu just gave a short list. Water has to be wherever Wood is because there is no Wood Release without Water. He does go on to say "Every nature release" or something to that effect, so whats the issue if he skips over any specific one, when it's just included with the "has everything" anyway?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:09, August 25, 2014 (UTC)

The Wood/Water stuff might be a typo, who knows?-- JOA20 18:11, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Ulti, Because he kept Earth. So if he skipped Water because Wood is included, why not to skip Earth as well?--Elveonora (talk) 18:12, August 25, 2014 (UTC)

@JOA20 you may be correct. Wood and Water have similar kanji (OK maybe not that similar, but it could be a typo...) So Kaguya's TSB have all five elements? Okay. And Foxie, are you suggesting that the Viz said her TSBs have Yin and Yang rather than Yin Release and Yang Release? Can you explain that to me? WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contribs) 18:15, August 25, 2014 (UTC)

So can we now add them elements... this things drags to much long. Its pretty damn obivous. Matianu.alexandruionut (talk) 20:11, August 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, we still wait for the raws. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:18, August 25, 2014 (UTC)

So when are the RAWS released... ? Matianu.alexandruionut (talk) 20:21, August 25, 2014 (UTC)

I suppose the combination of all the elements explains how Madara pulled Ranton out of his ass? Since we know Madara, Obito and now Kaguya all have the 5 elements, Mokuton, Yin, Yang, and Yin-Yang, what does this say about Naruto? Do users of the Gudōdama have access to all nature types or is it dependent on the user? Naruto was given the Yang power of Hagoromo, but he has access to the Gudōdama despite not having Yin. So how is he even able to use TSB, unless he has Yin, and thus Yin-Yang through the bijū? This is all terribly confusing.--Reliops (talk) 21:17, August 25, 2014 (UTC)


 * Six paths Yang power is yang release but yang release isn't six paths yang power. Yin and Yang release aren't kekkei genkai, anyone can use them. So Naruto can have Yin. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 00:03, August 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * The raws should be released soon...ish. • Seelentau 愛 議 08:58, August 26, 2014 (UTC)

Rikudō no Sennin Chakura
Can someone please add that the orbs are made of Rikudō no Sennin Chakura? • Seelentau 愛 議 16:47, August 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * The parent technique is Six Paths Sage Technique, isn't that kinda implied? --Atrix471 (talk) 17:01, August 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * I will do so, Seel. Do you have the RAWs from the last chapter? Delays in Japan suggest that we may not get them at all. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 17:03, August 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * Since Six Paths Sage Chakra is what TSB use, that pretty much confirms that Kaguya uses Six Paths Sage Technique, Foxie--Elveonora (talk) 17:05, August 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * That is not an argument for this page, nor an answer to the question I directed at Seel. Let it go or take it to the appropriate talk page and stop dragging these arguments to every talk page on the site. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 17:06, August 27, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, it's not from this week's raws, they aren't out yet. It's based on Sasuke's explanation, that the Six Paths' Sage Chakra is even able to damage the Limbo clone. Naruto, who did that damage Sasuke was talking about, used a TSB staff for it. The only thing I don't know is if the "Six Paths'" refers to the old sage himself or to whatever the Six Paths are. Basically, this only reconfirms that at least Naruto's TSB are Senjutsu. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:09, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

People should know that six paths chakra is not senjutsu or naruto's mode that is a six path sage tehnique. Its alot of confusion since sasuke fans want senjutsu for him... but i know already 2 japanease translators who said things are way different between this stuff...

Rikudou power/Rikudou chakra... Rikudou Senjutsu. Different stuff even tho they sound the same.Matianu.alexandruionut (talk) 20:03, August 27, 2014 (UTC)

The raws are out !!!
Source:NF - Official Naruto Translations

"i guess so but the raw also says 'wood'. maybe its an error on the printers part? cos the kanjis 水(water)　and 木(wood) can look similar when handwritten. still its odd that the kana　phonograms alongside the kanji　ideogram to indicate the pronounciation also say もく, wood, which cant be made up by the printer.

i might add ×the root time space　→　✓the starting ball space ×an expansive kekkei moura →　✓ an expansive gudo dama of kekei moora ×its a start of new time space. →　✓ this is the bigginning of a new space."Matianu.alexandruionut (talk) 11:04, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm going to wait for Seel to confirm first if they truly are out or you just making shit up--Elveonora (talk) 11:02, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Im not making shit up... i can give links if someone wants Matianu.alexandruionut (talk) 11:04, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * The translation comes from takL over at NF. I went out of my way to register and ask him in person for a raw. Since I still don't have it. ._. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:04, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

I think you can read the RAWS here "link removed"

Hope this helps Matianu.alexandruionut (talk) 11:15, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * I normally don't use raw scripts for translations since they could be translated versions of the English translations. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:22, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * But oh well, here we go:
 * 風、火、土、雷、木、陰と陽・・・
 * Wind, Fire, Earth, Lightning, Wood, Yin and Yang... (TN: not Yinyang)
 * そして巨大な求道玉・・・
 * and a giant Truthseeker Orb... (TN: そして means "and" or "and now/then" or "thus")
 * 全ての性質を合わせた・・・
 * all natures were combined...
 * 血継網羅の膨張求道玉！！
 * an Expansion Truthseeker Orb of Kekkei Mōra!! (TN: Bloodline Encompassing)
 * 新たな空間の始まりだ！
 * The beginning of a new dimension! (TN: 空間 means "space")
 * お前らはその犠牲となるのだ！！
 * You all will be sacrified!! • Seelentau 愛 議 12:03, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

So you should add the elements then... or wait for takL to give the RAWS. Either way i know takL its a good source. Wish i could help you and talk to him to get them faster... but i cant go on NF for 3 weeks Matianu.alexandruionut (talk) 12:09, August 28, 2014 (UTC)


 * TheUltimate3 is more confused now than when this whole mess started. I am perfectly fine with just saying $*@( it and not saying anything.--TheUltimate3 Amegakure_Symbol.svg (talk) 12:14, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm hesitating to add them because the wood could be a mistake. As takL said, 水　and 木 look alike, especially when handwritten. He said that the reading of the Kanji is moku, too, but that's something I want to confirm first. I also want to see the exact wording of the raw first, to clean the sentence structure.
 * On another note: According to the script, Naruto doesn't say that Kaguya's TSB is the same as his. He uses みたい, which means "like", "sort of", "similar to" or "resembling". If he wanted to say that they're "the same", he'd use 同じ onaji. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:16, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * @HA!! There goes your Wood Release Naruto, Foxie :)--Elveonora (talk) 12:26, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, is there any mention of her having all kekkei genkai in existence?--Elveonora (talk) 14:45, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, was there in the scanlation? • Seelentau 愛 議 14:50, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Correct. In the scanlations, most of them stated that Kaguya had the listed Nature Transformations and then every kekkei genkai in existence. Or some such.--TheUltimate3 Amegakure_Symbol.svg (talk) 14:52, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, just what I wrote above (missed Lightning, btw). • Seelentau 愛 議 14:57, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then hell scanlations are wrong as holy hell.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 15:02, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

But doesn't that pretty much confirm what we know? I know Eleveonora is in a hype over what Naruto said, but nothing has changed. The TSB are in fact composed of more than four natures, beyond kekkei genkai or tōta (because they are kekkei mōra). We know the natures (pending Seel's confirmation on the Wood/Water debacle [I'd put my money on water]), so now we know that the TSB are in fact a kekkei mōra combined with the "Six Paths Sage Chakra". Are we still going to go with this blind idiocy that all four users have different combinations, or are we just going to accept what the manga tells us? Especially if Seel comes back and says that "wood" was in fact "water", but even in light of that? ~ Ten Tailed Fox 15:08, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * As I said, for a final, clean translation I require the actual raw. But I guess the whole sentence is meant to be read as "Wind, Fire, Earth, Lightning, Wood Water, Yin and Yang... a giant Truthseeker Orb that combined all natures... an Expansion Truthseeker Orb of Kekkei Mōra!!". No idea what exactly Kekkei Mōra is meant to be and no, that doesn't mean that every TSB has all natures. As I said, Naruto doesn't say it's [the same], but [similar]. • Seelentau 愛 議 15:09, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Exactly. And even though I hate to repeat myself, we saw Naruto expand his TSB and throw it as Tailed Beast Ball Rasenshuriken (Wind Release only) not "kekkei more release magic whatever"--Elveonora (talk) 15:12, August 28, 2014 (UTC)


 * But even without this we know that TSB are made of "four or more natures", so unless I've gone batty, Naruto has (through the tailed beasts) all five basic natures and yang (not to much of a stretch to say yin is in there; its Naruto, by the Force). We've also seen him turn his TSB into a mutli-tailed beast nature Rasenshuriken, so we know he can employ those natures, so why are we suddenly not applying this knowledge to him? That'd be like saying Sasuke and Kakashi's Chidori are made of different elements. They're the same technique. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 15:15, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because the "four or more natures" was attributed to Jubito's TSB. There's a chance that Naruto's TSB don't have that attribute. • Seelentau 愛 議 15:17, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Seel, finally alike minded folk. @Foxie, because when Naruto used those multi-nature shurikens, he was shown talking to the Tailed Beasts. He wasn't though while casting his TSB, that's my reasoning--Elveonora (talk) 15:19, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not alike minded. I'm just taking every information as it is and do not project it on the generality... or so. I'm better safe than sorry. • Seelentau 愛 議 15:20, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

So, three users have "four or more natures" (all almost certainly the same natures), and one doesn't. Brilliant thinking you two. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 15:23, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you good sir. I think I already explained why I think what I think. In my opinion there's no evidence for Naruto's being the same, while there's enough contrary evidence. And don't get the wrong idea, I don't disagree just to piss you off, I'm serious about this--Elveonora (talk) 15:30, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Guess will have to wait for takL to give th raws to Seelentau. If i see the RAWS i will bring this subject up... Until then i think every gudoudama has at least 4 elements. Naruto already has with the help of the bijuu's 4 basic elements without lightning and 2 elemental KKG

So keep calm and wait :) Matianu.alexandruionut (talk) 15:41, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Wouldn't Naruto's comparison make complete sense in the way that they are similar only Kaguya's is bigger? I feel that we're dangerously close to crossing the line into intellectual dishonesty at this point simply because certain agendas would be better served by it, which is a disservice to other contributors and readers.--Reliops (talk) 17:56, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

I also remind people that 1) Naruto's TSB are by all indications the exact same as Hagoromo and Madara's, and 2) that Madara pulled Storm Release out of his butt crevice, meaning that BZ's statements holds true. Unless anyone has a particularly compelling argument, I am vehemently opposed to treating Naruto's TSB any different.--Reliops (talk) 18:07, August 28, 2014 (UTC)