Talk:Summoning: Impure World Reincarnation

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Bleeding
Can a Edo bleed? Otherwise how can they summon creatures?188.140.239.11 (talk) 12:50, July 20, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes they can. Itachi's eyes still bled after all and the Second Mizukage was able to summon his clam.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 13:05, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

It appears they bleed only from self-inflicted injuries, in a sense like usage of a technique that harms their (or better say the host's) body etc.--Elveonora (talk) 14:56, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

It's the same as the way they are able to remove their own clothing and such, but if somebody else does they just regenerate. Probably also related to the way Tobi was able to insert Sharingan and chakra receivers into the Six Paths without them regenerating.--BeyondRed (talk) 20:19, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

What about when Kabuto placed a mind control tag into Torune blood came from his mouth and made a sound of pain there was blood but it was self inflicted by Torune and I thought people brought back to life by edo tensei couldn't feel pain? and when people brought back to life by edo tensei are injured you don't see the sacrafice underneath so when kabuto implants the tag in there head wouldn't it fall out because there is no brain?? --82.39.201.72 (talk) 21:48, August 31, 2012 (UTC)
 * Torune was drooling not bleeding and that looked like Fū making the "sound of pain". As for the rest of your question, this isn't a forum.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 10:42, September 1, 2012 (UTC)

So he was drooling blood?? --82.39.201.72 (talk) 17:09, September 5, 2012 (UTC)
 * People tend to drool saliva. had it been blood, the colour would have been darker.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 10:45, September 6, 2012 (UTC)

Itachi's Eyes
Itachi got blind after fighting sasuke from both his sharingan,and was resurrected with both of them normal Nagato had his legs injured, and came back with them still injured any explanation ?--177.33.246.101 (talk) 00:37, August 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Itachi's eyes were pretty bad, but nothing indicates he went fully blind before death. If how his eye looked after he used Izanami is an indication at least. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:30, August 17, 2012 (UTC)
 * Nagato on the other hand could have simply "forgot" how to use his legs due to not using them for so long. It's akin to someone getting in an accident and needing rehabilitation to learn to reuse to limb, only Nagato had none of that.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 10:06, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

Nagato's legs were long healed, the problem was with his brain/nerve endings--Elveonora (talk) 17:01, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

About the use of the word "reincarnation". While that may be the title of the name in english, the technique does not actually reincarnate anyone. It resurrects them. The two words are very different. As such, the words "reincarnation" and "reincarnate", etc., should be replaced with the appropriate variants of "resurrection". 69.126.200.33 (talk) 03:40, September 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * That's what the term "tensei" means, and as such, it's the term to be used through the wiki. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 04:16, September 1, 2012 (UTC)

People are returned to "life" using other people's bodies as vessels. It is incorrect to say there's any type of resurrection here unless you're using layman's terms in which case everything is a resurrection.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 09:54, September 1, 2012 (UTC)

Resurrected in the exact state they died in?
If edo tensei resurrects the dead in the exact state they died in wouldn't that mean for example Itachi would be resurrected in the state when he fought sasuke near blind and in bad physical condition? or sasori he was resurrected as a human didn't he die a puppet? unless all resurrected by kabuto are special like madara, they were resurrected when they were at there best. --82.39.201.72 (talk) 22:17, October 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * For all we know, Itachi was near blind when he was brought back. And he wasn't in a bad physical condition, he was sick. A puppet can die, Sasori was brought back as a human because he was a human. Only Madra was a special case. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:31, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

Well when he was "near blind" his sharingan or mangekyō had no tomoe seal just a grey eye like sasukes after his battle with danzo and wouldn't he be resurrected near blind? because he died near blind. What I mean is maybe kabuto can resurrect them at any point in their life like he could have resurrected itachi in the state before his battle with sasuke. --82.39.201.72 (talk) 22:54, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

It resurrects them in a state from the time the DNA has been collected, except in Madara's case, works... doesn't it?--Elveonora (talk) 23:18, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

Kabuto must have gathered itachi's DNA after sasuke killed him... so why wasn't he resurrected near blind with grey eyes and no tomeo on his sharingan or mangekyō sharingan? see where I'm coming from? --82.39.201.72 (talk) 23:23, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

Who told you that? He could have had a bunch of his hair from a hairbrush.--Elveonora (talk) 23:29, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure hair doesn't count.. are you listening to what you're saying? that wouldn't be it. I can't imagine kabuto getting Itachi's DNA while Itachi was alive... who told you It resurrects them in a state from the time the DNA has been collected? if so is it 100% true? --82.39.201.72 (talk) 23:33, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

It says "Kabuto can also modify his summoned fighters, as he did with Madara Uchiha. While the technique usually reincarnates the deceased at the exact state they were in at the time of their deaths" not they are resurrected in the state when there DNA is collected.. to support this Kabuto says he graverobs to get the DNA he can't resurrect alive people.. so for example he got pakura's DNA while she was alive and killed her and resurrected her? --82.39.201.72 (talk) 23:40, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

Any DNA is sufficient, doesn't have to be only corpses/remains as he used blood and didn't specify what kind. I don't see why a genetic source from young Hiruzen should revive him as an old man. It's logical and explains basically what this topic discuss. No one says that, of course a living person can't be resurrected. The user can prepare the "zombie body" anytime though, the example being Minato. His soul wasn't available, but a host turned into "Minato" has been prepared.--Elveonora (talk) 23:46, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

So how did Itachi get resurrected to a point when his sharingan weren't near blind when he died? I thought it resurrects them in the state of their death. and I understand what you mean with the hiruzen but young hiruzen's DNA wouldn't revive Hiruzen when he was young. --82.39.201.72 (talk) 23:51, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

Elveonora, no one ever said that the person is brought back according to how they were at the time the DNA was collected. And anon, hair does have DNA, but only the root of the hair if I'm not mistaken. Remember that DNA isn't the only necessary thing, the soul of the person is brought back as well. That is what probably accounts for them coming back as they were prior to death. I still don't quite see the point of this topic. Madara is the only exception of this, and that is accounted for in the article. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:53, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough.. I guess :P --82.39.201.72 (talk) 00:50, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

I mean how was Itachi resurrected with non-near blind sharingan when he died with near blind sharingan because of his battle with sasuke? I thought edo tensei resurrects the dead in the state in which they died that means his sharingan. --82.39.201.72 (talk) 23:58, October 12, 2012 (UTC)

@Omni@others, can you provide a source for Edo Tensei reviving people prior to death? Unless I'm mistaken, it's just as big assumption/conclusion as the statement of mine (which is more logical imo)--Elveonora (talk) 00:03, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure Kabuto mentions it... --82.39.201.72 (talk) 00:04, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

"Then dust and ash encase the sacrifice's body, giving them the same appearance that the reincarnated had at the time of their death. The process is apparently somewhat painful as seen when Fū was used to reincarnate Torune." If they are resurrected with the same appearance they had at their death would they be resurrected in the state of their death? --82.39.201.72 (talk) 00:09, October 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * 1) no one provided a source yet, since "I'm sure Kabuto mentions it" isn't enough
 * 2) please, instead of double posting, just edit your previous post
 * 3) stop asking more question like if this was a forum before we conclude if what's written in the article is false or correct--Elveonora (talk) 00:16, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

I'm not asking more questions... I'm asking the first, and only question which you haven't answered yet. Have you got any evidence that "It resurrects them in a state from the time the DNA has been collected?" --82.39.201.72 (talk) 00:20, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

That's not your original question, there is no source for date of acquisition of DNA playing any role. What is known about the technique is in the article, and further discussion is pointless. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:43, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

Again, it was never stated to revive people/turn victims into other people as they were at the time of their death, either there's a reference to that or isn't, currently it's the latter. It should be removed, for it only to say: "Then dust and ash encase the sacrifice's body, giving them the same appearance that the reincarnated had" as the rest is a conclusion based on an assumption due to a lack of information, unless you can put me wrong and provide a quote from a chapter/databook page. What I have stated above is a possibility how it may really work, and since it appears we don't know, either remove that or put up my version that makes more sense. Basically in short (not to confuse you) what is being discussed is: --Elveonora (talk) 04:16, October 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * How Edo Itachi not blind
 * I say simply because Kabuto had his genetic material before the Sasuke fight
 * There currently isn't a redirect for the "prior to death" part

How they were at death probably comes from Nagato (who came back with the weakened look he had from using Samsara of Heavenly Reincarnation) and Torune (who was brought back in the exact same cloths he had just moments before). Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 04:44, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

I doubt it's as cut and dry as the person being reincarnated as how they physically were in their lifetime/before their death. Someone mentioned a while back that it is probably how the person's soul perceived itself at the time of death, which is why Sasori didn't get reincarnated as his core of living flesh and why Nagato still couldn't walk properly though the legs of whomever's body he occupied were functional. I don't know where you got the information that Itachi wasn't "blind" since I don't remember him being blind at his time of death, just severely deteriorated vision. There are several possibilities that could explain that such as the host body wasn't blind (reincarnation vs. resurrection again), but I quite like the "you're as whole and young as your soul thinks you are" angle. The point is, we'll never be 100% on this until Kishimoto explains, so don't sweat the small stuff.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 11:53, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

--Elveonora (talk) 16:58, October 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Kabuto got Nagato's DNA after he revived the villagers?
 * That's self-explanatory


 * So you're content to believe that people are reincarnated in the state their DNA which Kabuto gathers is in? There's a few flaws to that though: scientifically, DNA doesn't change like that, why aren't people like the Kage whose DNA obviously came from grave robbing not old and decrepit in appearance? Why didn't Sasori look older? From what Kabuto said, he brought Madara back beyond his prime. Though I don't know what that means exactly, but if he did that to everyone, what was the point in mentioning this? I also don't get the whole Kabuto got Itachi's DNA from a hairbrush but like I said we can only speculate on this matter until we're told otherwise.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 17:09, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

--Elveonora (talk) 17:14, October 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't know, Omni knows biology, I think... maybe he can tell.
 * They died as old as they had forms in which were revived...
 * Sasori looked normal to me
 * No one says he did that to everyone, also we know what "beyond his prime" means exactly.
 * That was an example

It could be they're resurrected at their best (prime). and Madara is special because he had was resurrected with his rinnegan even though at one point he gave it to someone (Nagato). And he had his memories, knowledge from his old self in his young body. --82.39.201.72 (talk) 17:25, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

No, Chiyo was revived as an old hag, the only one in his prime and beyond is Madara. This pretty much confirms that they are revived in a state from the point the DNA gets collected. The way I see it, Kabuto simply used blood from younger Madara (the Hashirama's sword he got pierced with for example could serve as a source) and added Hashirama's genes into the mix, reviving young Madara with already the latter's powers as his own.--Elveonora (talk) 17:46, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

Just because two things correlate (vary together), it doesn't mean they're actually related. There's a scientific paper which mocks this belief, showing that stork nests and births were positively correlated somewhere in Germany sometime last century. Nothing in the manga confirms, or even suggests that time of acquisition of DNA defines how they're brought back. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:59, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think you understood me Elveonora: The point still remains that only Kishimoto can answer this, if he chooses to or not. Some things just have to be accepted as continuity. But as far as I can tell, people are reincarnated in the state that they were before they died. Accept it either as part of the plot or the fact that in Nagato or Itachi's case (assuming the latter was "blind") that their souls were reincarnated into fully functioning corpses, hence defects of their previous body would have no bearing on those bodies.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 18:01, October 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * DNA does not change based on what happens to you unless it's a genetic disease- which is very rare. So if you lose a limb for example your DNA does not reflect that.
 * Still make no sense to me. See previous point.
 * Sasori should have been revived as a much older man, instead he looked in his 20's or so (the last time Chiyo saw him). That's what I mean by perception of soul.
 * I thought I made that clear.
 * Still a faulty example. Kabuto's mentioned that he takes the DNA from corpses or more than likely their last battlefields. (cite Jiraiya)

@Omni, that didn't answer my question though. Does DNA of a living being outside of it's body age in a sense, that if it was used to "clone" the said subject 5 decades later, would it result in x + 50 years old individual or just x ? @Cerez: There's no way he could age as a piece of wood, the preserved part was likely just one of his organs or just piece of flash, not his brain, so he couldn't appear older when revived by Edo Tensei Itachi's "blindness" was self-inflicted, if I blind myself by hitting my eye with a pen, it isn't reflected in my DNA whatsoever since it's not genetic--Elveonora (talk) 18:32, October 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Never said it does
 * You see point above, it doesn't matter if Sasori's DNA got collected before he turned himself into a doll, or from his doll physical part.
 * Just to let you know, I don't see the Itachi case as a problem at all, you think I don't get what I do and you don't get what I mean you don't get.

No, it doesn't age. DNA is damaged and repaired at every moment, both by environmental elements and by the very nature of the duplication process. If it's out of a body and properly stored, it can be maintained in a stable form for a long while, though I'm not sure how long. DNA changes very little during life, it accumulates said damage. Considering Kabuto took it from graves, it's obvious it doesn't need to be in top shape. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:11, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

So doesn't that just prove my point?--Elveonora (talk) 19:50, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

No. If decay to the DNA did anything to the reincarnated, grave-robbing would give very poor soldiers, because their DNA would have had more time to decay and be damaged. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:02, October 13, 2012 (UTC)

Just throwing it in there, DNA does change over the course of your life, otherwise you wouldn't stop growing, or even age ( Wikipedia Page for Epigenetics:[])...but considering this manga was not written by a biologist i suggest leaving the science at usual level --ThatUser (talk) 02:35, October 14, 2012 (UTC)

Epigenetics is about how your genes are expressed. Basically, it regulates which genes are "on" (being transcribed into mRNA and subsequently translated into proteins) and which genes are "off" (having their expression suppressed by other factors). That's the reason why we have different cell types, despite all of them having the genes for all proteins in our body. A muscle cell and a liver cell both have the genes which are expressed in brain cell, but those are off, so they don't have brain cell characteristics, because they don't express the same set of proteins. The nucleotide sequence in all of them is the same. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:48, October 14, 2012 (UTC)

Obito's Six Paths of Pain Dōjutsu
Although the six shinobi are still deceased, the fact is that they were each transplanted a Sharingan and Rinnegan eye, the same as characters like Kakashi. I think we should add to their infoboxes that they have the said eyes. Steveo920, October 20, 21:51

If they are the Six Paths of Pain and if they face those chakra recivers in their chest, then that means Obito implated a chakra receiver into himself (note that their sharingan and rinnegan are in the same eye sockets as Tobi's).--Droidkaju (talk) 02:01, October 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * The eyes aren't transplants, just "reflections"
 * I'm pretty sure it was even hinted upon that Tobi has a rod as well in his body--Elveonora (talk) 02:14, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

More likely than no, the Sharingan weren't reflections but the Rinnegan definitely were. It is also possible that Tobi didn't have a chakra receiver lodged in his body because of the fact that the jinchuriki were reincarnated and not corpses. He could simply have been using the Outer Path techniques to control them.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 14:52, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

@Cerez, Outer Path's Six Paths of Pain/Rikudou no Jutsu is used with a Chakra Receiver, thus he has to have one in his body in order to "transmit" as well--Elveonora (talk) 19:38, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

How in the...?
I feel I have the right to ask this. I understand the person's body isn't needed for the reincarnation, the only requirement being the deceased person's soul and a living sacrifice as a vessel, right? Okay, so where in the hell does Kabuto keep finding these people's souls? O.o And don't tell me that every single reincarnation needs a DNA sample. IIRC, some of the reincarnated shinobi's bodies were destroyed in real life(therefore no DNA sample), and Kabuto claimed that while he couldn't reincarnate Jiraiya because he had sunken too deep into the water when he died, if he could get ahold of the Six Paths of Pain's chakra recievers he should be able to reincarnate him; despite the chakra recievers being attached to his dead body! It was such an absurd statement on his part, I'm beginning to become morbidly confused on just how this jutsu works. --165.138.142.66 (talk) 17:08, October 26, 2012 (UTC)

He said he could get the DNA off of the Path's weapons. If you recall, the Animal Path he sent back to Konoha pierced Jiraiya's shoulder and basically every blow that wasn't the final impalement could render DNA samples to recreate Jiraiya. As for bodies that were destroyed who is to say Kabuto didn't get the DNA before this time? He needs some piece of the Target's DNA in order to recreate their body.

Having said that, about the Souls, it's not literally retrieving their Soul, it simply means that the person has to be dead and gone, not alive or sealed in order for the Soul to be called back to the body. He doesn't have to lay hands on a soul (How the hell would you even do that) Just be sure that the one he wants to revive is dead and that their Soul wasn't sealed before then. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 17:37, October 26, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I think I understand better now. --165.138.142.66 (talk) 17:43, October 26, 2012 (UTC)

Everything you need to know is present in the article, reading comprehension and thinking are your best bet before asking. But to save you the effort, it's as follows: Simply, a life for a life trade.--Elveonora (talk) 21:47, October 26, 2012 (UTC)
 * a living sacrifice has to be prepared
 * any DNA samples that belong to the people a summoner wishes to bring back
 * also their souls must reside in "the other world" if you will
 * 1) the summoner makes a sealing formula around the "about-to-be-sacrificed-person"
 * 2) places the "to-be-revived-person's" genetic material on the seal
 * 3) dust encases the victim, turning his/her body into an Edo zombie
 * 4) Souls descend from heavens into the zombies, replacing the originally living

Transplant
The article should mention the fact that the summoned shinobi retains the transplantations he has underwent in his life. Nagato and Hanzô are clear examples of that. --Bad77Wolf (talk) 01:43, October 29, 2012 (UTC)
 * Just to note, while there is no need to not say that transplants remain after resurrection, the article does clearly state that the revived are brought back in the state they were in at their death. So logically speaking, if they had a transplant at the time of death, they would keep it.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 02:18, October 29, 2012 (UTC)


 * Maybe but I think that deserves a proper, more explicit statement, considering the importance of transplantations in the Narutoverse. --Bad77Wolf (talk) 18:12, October 29, 2012 (UTC)

A page of the talismans?
I don't know why there isn't. Some of the info on them can be transferred to a new page. --OmegaRasengan (talk) 00:16, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

Appearing Asleep
The article currently, and has for quite a while, claimed that those revived by this technique appear "asleep" until a talisman has been inserted, but that isn't really the case. When Torune was revived he was awake and could even move on his own, and the two Hokage revived by Orochimaru could speak and, at the very least, walk when they were summoned. The only time the "asleep" statement is true is in regard to Kabuto's revived Akatsuki members, but that was likely because he had inserted talismans to bind their personalities when they were first reincarnated, just like Torune. Not sure how to better phrase this in the article, but it seems rather incorrect to leave it as is.--BeyondRed (talk) 08:16, January 12, 2013 (UTC)
 * The article says when summoned. It is not with reference to what happens to them after the ritual had just been completed. Changed the word either way.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 08:30, January 12, 2013 (UTC)