Talk:Mutations

Potential Mutants
Kisame Hoshigaki, because those gills on his arms and face, skin colour, eyes, etc. seem a bit more than cosmetic. Might also explain his strength. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 06:04, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * What evidence do you have for these being mutation besides that other people don't have them? I mean maybe humans are just not like normal humans in naruto world... - S im A nt 06:16, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * The second databook classified Kidōmaru's jutsu as hiden. If anything, hiden jutsu can be made from mutations. Take for example Deidara. His extra mouths are all but explicitly said to come from the Iwagakure Kinjutsu he stole. His Exploding Clay is hiden, and comes from that. Also, Isaribi and Amachi aren't examples of mutations, they were experimented on, that's how they got their fish attributes. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:59, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Those people are anime, and I do not know much about the anime. As for Kidōmaru, his JUTSU may be hidden, but those arms and eyes are not classified as such. As for Kisame, we do not have much information about differences between us and Naruto humans. Moreover, there has not been a single person who remotely resembles him (except for the teeth).
 * I just think it's important to make it clear that it's the arms and eyes that are different, not the jutsu. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:46, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree, though I it might be better to put the qualfiers on his own page, or added to the list. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 20:59, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * The distinction on the page should be good enough. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:04, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * I for one don't quite necessarily think that Kisame should be qualified as a mutant. I mean, there isn't really any proof. So he may look different from everyone else - that doesn't necessarily qualify as a mutation. Hinōmaru-sensei (日の丸先生) 21:20, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Exactly as above user said. Side note, everyone in the real world is a "mutant" just not to the same degree. - S im A nt 21:22, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

There could be a number of different reasons these people look different, that doesn't mean its a mutation.--Deva 27 (talk) 21:25, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Agreed. There are tons of mutants, heck the fact that I am not lactose intolerant makes me a mutant (seriously), so I guess it should be clarified as notable mutations. On that note though, blue skin and gills, etc. means that there is one seriously big difference going on, especially with all the other stuff which indicates a lot of differences. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 21:29, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, it does. There is nothing wrong with it, but yes, you are a mutant.  At a rate of about 10 million of your cells replicating their DNA and dividing at any time, there's basically no possible way for any person to not have any mutations whatsoever.  They just don't have any affect.  (Chill, I'm lactose-intolerant also.  Lactase pills save my life, 'cause I couldn't live without ice cream, cake, pizza, In-n-Out, etc.)  And it is possible that Kisame was born as a regular human, but something about wielding the Samehada changing his appearance and physical attributes.  This would not make him a true mutant.  --Justentizang (talk) 22:03, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

About Kisame, see below. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:26, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Spacing
The double spacing between paragraphs is bad, it's almost like the bug in the RTE that inserted loads of spaces when editing. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:48, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Writing habit, I find that it easier to read stuff if it is not all packed together. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 20:55, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

Eyes
Can I start adding those people that have unusual eyes to the list? And NO, I AM NOT talking about the BYAKUGAN, SHARINGAN, or other doujutsu. Just people who were born with radically different eyes and faces (cited). Perhaps under a Minor Mutation list? Afterall, it may seem small, but if one bit of DNA is different, what else may be (i.e. Orochimaru was a tad unusual) Thomas Finlayson (talk) 21:00, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Mmm, not sure. This is a manga afterall, weird eyes and hair are common. If we include little things like his eyes, we'll have to list Kurenai's eyes, and stuff like Sakura's pink hair. Doesn't seem worth it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:04, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hair can be put down as dye for all we know. What I am more interested in is stuff like yellow eyes (two from Konoha, Orochimaru and a guy cited) or eyes that seem have no iris or pupil (cited), and other more notable things. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 21:08, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sakura must be very patient then, bothering to dye her eyebrows. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:21, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hmmm...you got me. Save the hair for later then, and deal with one mutation at a time? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 21:22, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

Credibility
Where the manga, databooks, or anime have there been any indication of mutations. I don't want to hear some real world connotations, I want in-universe stuff to prove these are mutations and not jutsu related.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 21:53, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Jugo is the main one, they said how he had a special enzyme that allowed him to do all of these abilities; thus his power came not from learned jutsu but a natural biological accident. Moreover, here and there you keep seeing people with unusual physiological aspects that have never been explain (Kidōmaru is merely the most drastic) which haves not been indicated to be part of any jutsu since we have seen no indication that the use of jutsu would cause these modifications.

Essentially, I am trying to explain and classify those who show unusual natural abilities, but have not been classified as Kekkei Genkai.
 * No one has ever said anything about these people having mutations.--Deva 27 (talk) 22:00, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * Not 'said' correct, but heavily implied in some cases that something was off. Put another way, how would you explain it, because that is what I am trying to do? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 22:02, June 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Jugo seems to be the only one that fits this "mutation" thing. Everyone else however, at the very least, seem jutsu related. Kisame, Samehada, Shark Skin, shark appearance, merging with Samehada to make even more Shark Kisame. Kidomaru, potentially related with his Cursed Seal, or body modifications via Orochimaru's experiments.
 * Basically, one example (Jugo) does not seem to be enough to assume the existence of mutants. Not when the Narutoverse exists in a world where great oddities are not exactly uncommon.--TheUltimate3 (talk)
 * If Kidomaru got this from experimentations, would it not be said? Moreover, would it not be done a lot more? Think for a few seconds about the taijutsu he did with 6 arms and now imagine an army of people like him. As for Kisame, you speak as he was named after a shark and then started to look like a shark (the sword would have been unpredictable). Is it not more likely that he was born like this and his mom (after the screaming) noted he looked like a shark?

Moreover, the fact that Nagato was mistaken as a mutant indicates that these occurances are not too uncommon. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 22:09, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * @Kidomaru comment: Not necessarily. A lot of things can go unsaid. Doesn't make them a mutant.
 * @Kisame comment: Not going to assume anything. Knowledge on character naming is enough for me to make a guess on why he was named "Demon Shark". That in itself still does not gander a claim to mutation.
 * @Nagato's Rinnegan, which I except was the target of this mutation comment, IS uncommon. The legendary eyes of the first ninja, appearing on some random orphan. That is uncommon. Jutsu related body modifications however, are not.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 22:14, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

Clarify last point please. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 22:16, June 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Very well. The Rinnegan is special. Really really special. So special it has only been seen once before Pain, in the Sage of the Six Paths. The Sage is already considered a myth to modern day ninja, so when they look at Pain's Rinnegan, they see just some strange odd mutation of some eye jutsu.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 22:20, June 4, 2010 (UTC)


 * Please allow me to put my two cents in ^^
 * Kidōmaru fights with hiden jutsu. It is likely his six arms are also the result of that, as is implied with Deidara's mouths.
 * Jūgo was said to have a special enzyme, which could easily be classified as a kekkei genkai. The databook will bring clarity on this issue, I'm certain.
 * Kisame is... weird, but there is no reason to assume this is the result of genetics. It could simply have been a hiden jutsu, body modification, or Samehada. As a side note, Zetsu would be in the same position as Kisame here.


 * As for the Rinnegan, I believe the following can make this clear: Every single kekkei genkai is a mutation. Every one of them. No exceptions.
 * For that matter, every single living being on the planet Earth is built up of mutations of mutations of mutations. If this article were to be accurate, it would not only list things like Jūgo's enzymes, but also Naruto's blond hair, Shikamaru's nose, Sakura's left pinky, Neji's left third toenail, Tsunade's vagina, et multa cetera ad infinitum.
 * there is no basis for this article, nor any way to maintain it within reason and keep it understandable and usable. --ShounenSuki (talk 01:55, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * ...You were doing fine there until you mentioned Tsunade's vaginal area. Now 50 year old danger zones are flashing in my mind. /brainbleach --TheUltimate3 (talk) 02:15, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

1) Forgot about Zetsu, thanks. How would he have developed two brains, and all of those weird stuff by jutsu though (there is a limit). 2) If you read the article you would see that the whole mutation thing has been clarified.

3) I know that the mutations are connected to kekkei genkai, but the significant difference is that these have not been shown to be inheritable, so they cannot be classified as such.

4) Jugo has been around for a while and yet the 3rd databook apparently made no mention of him in this context.

5) Kisame is indeed 'weird,' weird enough that I think he may have been born that way. His flesh regrew the same colour even when fighting Killer Bee even, which means that it is linked to the cells, which means DNA. More to the point, if Killer Bee even suspected that the sword would change him like that (i.e. Kisame looked like that after he got the sword) he would chuck it into a hole and put a big rock over it.

6) Kidomaru has unusual jutsu yes, but if you reread it, it comes from unique skin pores (biolological) and there is NO mention of it altering his arms. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:26, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * @TheUltimate3: Funny, that's how all vaginas make me feel.
 * @Thomas Finlayson: The problem is that there is no significant difference between kekkei genkai and mutations. All mutations are in theory inheritable and some kekkei genkai have not been inherited by the descendants of the original users. As for Kidōmaru, I already said he used hiden jutsu. Hiden jutsu are, per definition, not genetic. Else they would be kekkei genkai. The only possibility is for him to have undergone body modification, as is the case with Kakuzu and Deidara. --ShounenSuki (talk 06:44, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * I hear what you are saying, but by the definition of kekkei genkai, they are incompatible since it requires to be inheritable. As for Kidomaru, I agree, AGREE, that he uses hidden jutsu (he is not even classified under the hidden jutsu section), but I say that his body, BODY, is a naturally occuring mutation. It does not seem reasonable for Orochimaru to have done such a modificiation to only him. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 21:12, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * A. Have you seen the parents of these characters to determine what is inherited? B. Orochimaru is crazy, he does crazy stuff to people. - S im A nt 21:23, June 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * A. No listing of the parents given, but good point. But since they have not been identified as kekkei genkai, and because not all of these mutations are jutsu based, they need their own category. B. Yes he is/was crazy, but those kind of arms are a serious tactical advantage, and he would gain a lot by giving them to more followers.
 * You're argument is because orochimaru didn't give it to more people, it must be natural. Why not keep trying to make more Wood release users? - S im A nt 21:41, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * He thought they all died remember, and if some 50 test subjects, and he would have chosen who he saw as the most compatible, failed then there would not seem much reason to try again. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 21:43, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * And how do you know 100000 people didn't die and kidomaru was the lone survivor? Even Orochimaru does not have the resources to keep trying after something like that... It's pretty simple, people in the narutoverse don't follow the same laws as our universe. - S im A nt 21:46, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Hyperbole is unnecessary,and their is a world of difference between the two modifications if you think about. Plus, that assume that he met Oro and developed the Hiden jutsu on his own "after" he met him, which earned him Oro's favour, not before. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 04:32, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

Potential Mutant: Kisame
Kisame Hoshigaki, because those gills on his arms and face, skin colour, eyes, etc. seem a bit more than cosmetic. Might also explain his strength. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 06:04, June 4, 2010 (UTC)
 * What evidence do you have for these being mutation besides that other people don't have them? I mean maybe humans are just not like normal humans in naruto world... - S im A nt 06:16, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

As for Kisame, we do not have much information about differences between us and Naruto humans. Moreover, there has not been a single person who remotely resembles him (except for the teeth).
 * I for one don't quite necessarily think that Kisame should be qualified as a mutant. I mean, there isn't really any proof. So he may look different from everyone else - that doesn't necessarily qualify as a mutation. Hinōmaru-sensei (日の丸先生) 21:20, June 4, 2010 (UTC)

And it is possible that Kisame was born as a regular human, but something about wielding the Samehada changing his appearance and physical attributes. This would not make him a true mutant. --Justentizang (talk) 22:03, June 4, 2010 (UTC) About Kisame, see below. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:26, June 5, 2010 (UTC

Was getting off topic so I moved the stuff around for clarity. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:40, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Mutants
I keep saying this, but no one seems to hear, so I hoped this would get it through:
 * I know that we are all mutants, but my concern is about those who have displayed serious, and visible mutations, which may have effect their abilities (mutable body, 6 arms, two minds, etc.) or are plainly visible (blue skin, gills, lack of iris or pupil) which may indicate further changes or a possible unknown ability. I do not care as much about lactose. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:42, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Potential Mutant: Zetsu
The skin, the apparent need for only human flesh (yes I know cannibals are possible, but it does not necessarily indicate a personal choice), multiple bodies, carving the dominant one in two, and the two brains/minds. Nothing yet to indicate that this may be jutsu caused. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:46, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Cover of chapter 487 says that it may not be human--Deva 27 (talk) 02:59, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * That many similarities do not happen by accident. I might buy a hybrid, but if someone mutated enough, would you still be able to classify them as biologically human? Heck, you may wonder if Jinchuriki are still human (another talk page, not here). Thomas Finlayson (talk) 03:21, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

Potential Mutant: Kidōmaru
His jutsu is hidden, yes. His body is a mutation. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 21:13, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * Just so you know, Orochimaru applied body-modifying hiden jutsu to his subordinates before. Misumi Tsuguri, for example. That, combined with several other known and implied body-modifying hiden jutsu, strongly suggests that Kidōmaru's strange appearance is not due to genetics. —ShounenSuki (talk 00:27, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * In the anime perhaps, but in the manga that ability was relatively minor. Plus, I do not think Misumi got it was from Oro. Think about it, if he displayed an unusual ability inside of Konoha that could not be traced back there, would the villagers not get a lot more suspicious a lot faster; at the very least it is not something a good spy would risk.
 * There is enough secrecy surrounding hiden jutsu that he could get away with it and Orochimaru actually uses it himself. Still, it does raise the question: why not assume Kidōmaru got his arms before joining Orochimaru? the point remains the same. There is no reason to assume Kidōmaru's arms are natural. —ShounenSuki (talk 12:33, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

Deletion
After yesterdays shenanigans, I was still left unimpressed with the notions of "mutants" or whatever in the Narutoverse. So I put up the deletion tag. Let's get er done.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 21:36, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * nods*... - S im A nt 21:46, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * yes--Deva 27 (talk) 21:48, June 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * /cough /cough /ialreadygavemyreasonsabovewouldbegreatifotherssaidmorethanaggreeingordisaggreeing /cough--TheUltimate3 (talk) 21:51, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * No mention of these people being mutants. No proof their abilities were or were not inherited. It's an manga/anime, people look funny and can do crazy stuff. - S im A nt 21:53, June 5, 2010 (UTC)

There is a limit to this though. And you may want to get that throat looked at. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 21:57, June 5, 2010 (UTC)
 * No proof any of these people being born the way they look, and could be jutsu related.--Deva 27 (talk) 22:00, June 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Too many uncertainties, too little relevance to the manga, and too much speculation. I'm sorry Thomas Finlayson, but this article has no solid justification. —ShounenSuki (talk 00:29, June 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * "All" of my information is from the manga if you look at my sources; you will find sufficient comments and examinations on this subject to arose interest if you look at them.


 * The information however tries to apply real world definitions of what is normal and what is a mutation in the Nartoverse. A series where giant demons can be bound to human bodies, people can spit fire out the ass, fly, get the entire top layer of skin burned off and suffer no permanent damage. Hell, Orochimaru was able to completely change himself into a multitude of white snakes, and yet somehow Kisame and Kidomaru have to be mutants because they look different. It just doesn't work.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 11:58, June 6, 2010 (UTC)

Where did the 2nd happen? As for the rest, they a) deomon related, which is another section, or b) related to the most brilliant scientist alive. As for the flying, that came from Jugo's mutation remember. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 22:35, June 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * The spit fire out the ass comment was just a way of saying, people can spit fire. Brilliant scientist, jutsu related, in the Narutoverse that amounts to the same thing. And Pain could fly as well. Remember when he nuked Konoha?
 * But this is besides the point to be honest. As I said before, everything that has been seen so far have been the result of jutsu or part of a jutsu. Thus far, the idea if mutations does not work.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 23:01, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

Juugo's mutation? I thought his was just Kekkei Genkai that Orichimaru found the source of and made availble to other ninja.As for Kisame we don't know if he is just one of many in his family that looks like that could again either be a product of a Kekkei Genkai or hiden jutsu till Kishi saids something mutants down't exist. Same goes for Zetsu and the others we know nothing of their origin to really say anything. Kidomaru was a hiden jutsu right? Sound slike the creator of this article doesn't know that some hiden jutsu may require some form of surgery or ritual. As such adding Kidomaru defeats your argument of Mutations as it is a hiden jutsu.As I see it this is just some fanmade explanation for Kekkei Genkai as they are essentially mutations that are passed down through the gen. As for the rinnegan we don't know who are all the Sage's decedents, as it seems your going by Kakashi who is the last person I would go to when it comes to doujutsu.By your logic Sharingan should be on this list as according to Itachi not all Uchiha gained Sharingan and were killed by the age of 15. Same goes for the First Hokage who is the only known wood style user besides Yamato(dna impant) since his wood style didn't turn up in any of his known decedents.I agree for the deletion of this article.Saimaroimaru (talk) 23:12, June 7, 2010 (UTC)


 * @TheUltimate3, that was just chakra in his feet coupled with extreme durability for the landing. I was thinking of Sasuke's wings and Konan's paper ability. Orochimaru is a lot different by the way since no one else has shown his ability, but note it was mostly on himself. Sasuke, his next host, though got nadda except for the curse mark (mutation based) and stuff like poison immunities. Jutsu stuff below by the way.
 * @Saimaroimaru, as I have said, I think I have a section even, that this is different from kekkei genkai because there is no evidence of these being "naturally" inheritable. Kidomaru, see his section too.
 * Read what I write before you delete Thomas Finlayson (talk) 05:21, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

And I have given you evidence of KKG they have only one noted user in it history. This is no more than a theory that belongs on the Narutopedia Discussion in the forum. Not as an article. Kidomaru was a hiden jutsu. Which includes surgery, rituals and so on. Also genetic mutation is natural if you wanna get real with it. Konan could be a hid jutsu or kkg, Sasuke's wing are a product of using manufactured form of Juugo's enzyme's. All this is is kkg in a new package and form to fit in kidomaru really. Cause thats what KKG are, rare genetic traits that pop-up rarely or commonly in a clan. The only KKG that has the remote chance of having 100% occurance is the Byakugan.Saimaroimaru (talk) 05:44, June 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * KKG (thanks for the acronym) means inheritable, and as far as we have seen this stuff has not passed on naturally (Talk: Jugo, just edited your part). Because of that difference a lot of stuff is omitted since everyone gets so fixed in preset categories that stuff falls through the cracks; that is what the point of this site is.

Konan is jutsu based, yes. That was only an example to the above comment about flying. Forget about it. Go to Talk: Jugo for Sasuke too. Where did you get the byakugan part by the way (seen a lot but not definite; start a new section though)?

And yet The First Hokage's Wood Style is labeled a KKG and yet no one has inherited it naturally. The point of this site is to provide accurate information on Naruto not theories like this page. I said chance not definite. KKG are not 100% passable. Yes I know what the word means but KKG when used in NARUTO are rare genetic traits that come up commonly(Hyuga) or Rarely(Kaguya). We don't know enough about Zetsu and Kisame to be labeling things such as mutants. And no don't go start sections for the hyuga and Sasuke is a moot point, had gained it through transplant.This is Naruto not Marvel.Saimaroimaru (talk) 06:07, June 8, 2010 (UTC)


 * Very good reasoning Saimaroimaru. Very good, yes.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 11:42, June 8, 2010 (UTC)

I admit, I am impressed to get some new arguments. For the Kayuga I feel the need to say extinct, not rare. Regardless.


 * What I have been trying to say is that I have observed characters who have displayed abnormal physical traits and jutsu that appear genetically based but have not been commented upon with the databooks. The 1st Hokage has, correct. But not Jugo, and the others have not recieved sufficient examination either. While I would be glad to comment about this on their articles, I would a) get yelled at for adding a kekkei genkai that was not included in the omniscient databooks b) other upcoming characters, including some minor mutations, would not receive the attention they deserve. This cite is for the ignored, nothing more. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 01:05, June 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * And there we see the problem, this is why this page holds no merit. It is a page of original research, gathered observations that try to reach a conclusion. That is why this page does not work. You wish to explain something that was not asked, an answer to a question that does not exist. So far everyone who has appeared odd or something like that appeared so in relation to whatever jutsu they employ, hence "jutsu related" is used to "explain away" their oddities. Trying to come up with a reason such as mutations however try to rational something that, for all extensive purposes, does not exist in the Narutoverse. People look funny. That's just how things are. The fact that they look funny and it is not explained can itself be explained, that they just look different. Like how I'm black and Mr.Random McRandomton is white in the real world, someone in the Narutoverse may be "white" while someone else might be gray and scaly.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 02:22, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * I asked the question, who is to say others have not, will not, and just have not had the courage to try something new? Look below at the Jutsu Related section again. And I think your example has to much hyperbole to be valid. 207.6.166.208 (talk) 05:45, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Perhaps you misunderstood what I ment when i said "unasked". In the series, their unique appearances were not mentioned as odd. If fans wish to cry mutations, they have a large number of forums in which to spout their theories. This is an encyclopedia. We don't publish speculations, based on a separate universe. We present what we are given in the series.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 06:41, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

I feel tempted to argue that this was presented to us as well. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 21:51, June 9, 2010 (UTC)


 * Except it hasn't. The only thing that comes close is Jugo's enzymes thing, and thats only worth mentioning in his page and not some massive conspiracy theory on mutations.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 21:54, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * You really like hyperbole. If you believe so strongly in this, could you go down and make your Jutsu causing argument more clear? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 21:59, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * What?--TheUltimate3 (talk) 22:00, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * (Sigh) I am asking you to make your own argument more clear down below in the Jutsu section. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 22:02, June 9, 2010 (UTC)

It's as clear as it's going to get. I don't feel like going into excessive detail on something that was very clearly stated: Kidimaru had the Hiden Jutsu Spider Sticky Gold, he used his extra arms and eye to compliment this, and hard various spider related jutsu. Conclusion: The extra arms and eyes were jutsu related. Kisame is even more straight forward.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 22:06, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Kisame is not straight forward if you consider (down below) Samehada's relationship with Bee. As for Kidomaru, you say that he (or his clan) felt compelled to suddently make a spider based jutsu, and then modified themselves to look like one. Not that they were born looking like spiders and felt compelled to develop similiar to compliment it (I feel I hare removed Oro from the argument in a previous comment). Thomas Finlayson (talk) 22:11, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Because Killer Bee didn't change doesn't mean it's not possible that he couldn't. Kisame did a jutsu that changed him, maybe prolonged exposure to the sword does it, maybe Kisame woke up one day and decided he wanted to have freaky sex with his sword and that changed him into Kisamemon (HA!). Who knows. We we do know is this, Kisame looks like a shark, Samehada literally means "Shark Skin". Kisame merges with Samehada to become SamehadaKisamemon shows that the sword does have a direct effect on his body.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 22:18, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Does Bee really seem to you the type who would want that to possibly happen to him? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 22:24, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * Does Killer Bee seem like the person who would care? Hell's he's a jinchuriki. The Eight-Tails would probably reject the foreign entity from trying to change it's host, just like the Nine-Tails rejected Pa. This is however, completely unrelated to the argument.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 22:26, June 9, 2010 (UTC)
 * (*Sigh*) My argument was that Kumo would have intelligence on Kisame for a large number of reasons. This intelligence would include if the sword was what gave him his...unusual appearance. Bee is not the type who would want another affecting him in any way, plus his mannerisms indicate a strong sense of pride and/or arrogance, which would continue to avoid a transformation like that. If he even suspected that this was true, he would not accept it. Moreover, nor would A, since if an object can change one's genetic code, who knows what else it could do to the host. The 8 tails effect is a good point, but would the really be worth leaving to chance? Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:05, June 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * Yo, long time..anyway, @Thomas Finlayson I do have a counter for the above. I would like you to read Chap. 468 pg 08/09. Doesn't that suggest that the Mist Village do know something about Kisame? And doesn't details which are limited to just a few characters, be put in say, the characters page instead. Even if what you said is, in anyway true, since it hasnt been mentioned in the series so far (even though they've had so many opportunities to do so), nor been given so much as a foot note by MK, its likely that either that MK doesn't see his charcters that way, or will reveal it later. If its the 1st, then this page doesn't have a valid reason to stay, if its the second..It can always be restored later. ..World Cup '10 EEENNNNNGGLLLLAAAANNNNDDDD (AlienGamer &#8285; Talk) 02:40, June 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * I am not totally sure what you mean by that reference, if anything it implies that he had impressive abilities (mutation) before he got the sword.

But very well, I will put it away, for now...Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:48, June 10, 2010 (UTC)
 * This isn't a very... satisfying way to end a discussion. It merely postpones things. Let me make the arguments of your opponents as clear as I can:
 * This article is not needed because...
 * This concept, in this form, has never been used in the manga.
 * Some of the examples you gave might not even be genetic (Kidōmaru, et al).
 * Others have not been treated as anything different from the rest of the characters (Kisame, et al).
 * Other again have far too little information to say anything about them (Zetsu, et al).
 * In the end, this leaves only one character whom this concept could apply to. Jūgo, that is. One character does not justify this article.
 * The concept of mutants is extremely vague, making it impracticable to maintain this article and keep it both useful and complete.
 * I'm sure I missed some arguments, but hopefully this will be enough to actually convince you. --ShounenSuki (talk 08:31, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

How jutsu related
May as well take this argument head on. How do you explain all of these...unusual characteristics as being jutsu related. Granted their was Orochimaru (who was yellow eyed and white skinned when still learning jutsu) but he was perhaps the most brilliant scientist of the series (Kabuto unconfirmed). Thomas Finlayson (talk) 23:29, June 5, 2010 (UTC)


 * Kidomaru = Spider Sticky Gold, various spider related jutsu. In respect to the Narutoverse, four arms and third eye are jutsu related to allow, or augment these spider techniques.


 * Kisame = Samehada, various shark themed jutsu, merged with Samehada to make SamahadaKisamemon (HA!). In respect to the series, shark appearance is jutsu related to Samehada.


 * The two favorites. I could go on, but I'd rather not. I feel my point got across.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 13:03, June 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * Choose some more actually.

@Kisame: His flesh regrew the same colour even when fighting Killer Bee even, which means that it is linked to the cells, which means DNA. More to the point, if Killer Bee even suspected that the sword would change him like that (i.e. Kisame looked like that after he got the sword) he would chuck it into a hole and put a big rock over it. @Kidomaru: Would it make more sense to develop a spider themed hidden jutsu out of the blue, or after you already looked like one? 154.5.174.52 (talk) 22:31, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * @Kisame, killer bee doesn't care or doesn't know. @Kidomaru, what hiden jutsu? - S im A nt 22:37, June 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Spider Sticky Gold is labeled as a Hiden jutsu.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 00:24, June 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * That man is in his own way very egotisitcal; he would never tolerate his body being changed like that. Plus, Kumo would definetely have a file on Kisame due to his present and former rank, and details like that would be noticed. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 01:32, June 7, 2010 (UTC)

For another day.
Mutations are similar in concept to kekkei genkai's in that they are abilities attributed to specific individuals and appear to occur through pure chance. Indeed there has been confusion between these two concepts, such as with the Rinnegan.

Of course, all humans have incredibly small mutatations in their DNA due to evolution, mistakes in DNA duplication during Meiosis, etc., but some mutations are more pronounced than others and lead to more significant differences. Thus, this section is more devoted to visible mutations, and thus far more major than everyday ones, which produce visible physical differences and allow new jutsu to occur.

Like Kekkei Genkai, these abilities and their related jutsu can't be taught or copied by others, but it is possible to confer the ability to another person such as with Jūgo and Orochimaru's Juinjutsu. Although it should be noted that these mutations are not necessarily jutsu related as many kekkei genkai's are, such as numerous ninja having unusual eyes, or in Kidōmaru's case six arms and three eyes, though many of his jutsu are in fact hiden.

A mutation should also not be confused with hiden jutsu. Hiden jutsu are exclusive to a certain clan only because they have kept others from learning how to perform those jutsu, and are neither Kekkei Genkai nor mutations.

Jutsu Related

 * Jūgo
 * Zetsu

Major Physical Differences

 * Kidōmaru
 * Kisame Hoshigaki

Thomas Finlayson (talk) 02:50, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

Back and forth
Since I'm kinda tired of seeing this endless back and forth, here's an idea. Since it's very clear that the creator of the page wants to keep it, and that other members of the community don't think it belongs in the wiki, just move the article to a user namespace. It's stays out of "official" articles and it can be further worked on, even if it never makes into articles. I did it with my nature transformation ideas and never got any backlash for it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:00, June 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * I'd suggest replacing this page with a new article called something like "Characters with Unique Physiologies" or "Unexplained Physiological Traits". There are a number of characters who have physiological traits that obviously differ from the norm, but apparantly aren't Kekkei Genkai, or aren't even explained at all. Simply use it as a general page to list characters that appear to have unique biology which hasn't been explained. Zabuza Momochi, Suigetsu Hōzuki, and Chōjūrō all have sharp teeth; Kisame Hoshigaki has a generally shark-like appearance including blue skin and gills; Deidara has mouths on the palms of his hand and his chest; Hanzō and Kakuzu have unusually colored sclera; Zetsu's body is half-black and half-white with a carnivorous plant covering it... and so on. FF-Suzaku (talk) 23:45, June 10, 2010 (UTC)


 * Deidara's mouths are all but blatantly said to be a result of the Iwagakure Kinjutsu. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:56, June 10, 2010 (UTC)

That would be more reasonable though for the rest. Thomas Finlayson (talk) 00:07, June 11, 2010 (UTC)