Talk:Tobi

PLEASE DO NOT MAKE DUPLICATE TOPICS, STICK TO THE ONES ALREADY THERE, DUPLICATE TOPICS WILL BE REMOVED, RESPONSES TO SPECULATION WILL BE REMOVED WITH THE SPECULATION, READ TOPICS BEFORE ASKING SOMETHING THAT'S ALREADY ANSWERED, DO NOT INSERT SPECULATION INTO THE DISCUSSIONS

New information
Kishimoto: Tobi’s Identity Revealed Within Next Few Weeks Naruto fans, get excited! From Shonen Jump 35 comes a brand new interview with the legendary creator of Naruto, Masashi Kishimoto! The interview consists of 5 questions in regards to what’s currently and will soon be happening in the great manga known as Naruto. Scans of the interview are included, check them out below! Question: The legendary ninja is now immortal, does Madara Uchiha have any weakness? Kishimoto-sensei: All people, even the strongest ones, have weaknesses, however, Madara does not. So we have to pose the question, where and how will the battle go from here!? Please stay excited and wait with eager anticipation to find out!! Question: What is the connection between Tobi and Madara? Kishimoto-sensei: Both ninja know one another. What kind of relationship do they have? Well, that will be gradually revealed as the story progresses!! Question: Will Tobi’s identity be revealed in the future…!? Kishimoto-sensei: Yes, it will. In fact, Tobi’s identity should be revealed within the next couple of weeks so until then please continue with your predictions!! Question: How will the story of Naruto and Sasuke continue from this point on? Kishimoto-sensei: They will meet again, this time during the war. Just wait until you see what is happening then! Question: We will soon be entering into the climax of the Fourth Shinobi World War arc, please tell us some of the key points that will be coming soon! Kishimoto-sensei: Everything from here on out is key and everything is just going to get more and more electrifying! All your favorite characters will shine brightly so please continue to enjoy Naruto as the great Shinobi World War reaches its climax!

This was taken off Facebook and it might help this wiki. Sam (BAZINGA) 18:05, July 31, 2012 (UTC)

Talkpage is used for discussions regarding improvement of the article itself, and related things. This:
 * there's nothing to discuss as it's no new information, just "soon"
 * it's like a forum post


 * I hope you are aware, that not a damn thing was revealed. Hell the entire interview, if it's real, could be summed up as "Wait and see!".--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:24, July 31, 2012 (UTC)


 * Someone took it from the Shonen Jump magazine thing. Sam (BAZINGA) 17:29, July 31, 2012 (UTC)


 * Um... Cerez. This is the interview. --KiumaruHamachi (talk) 22:08, July 31, 2012 (UTC)KiumaruHamachi

I don't think it should be here, are we going to put up a trivia "Tobi about to be revealed SOOON!!!!!!!!!!!" or something? Or talking about nothing because there's no information to discuss?--Elveonora (talk) 18:40, July 31, 2012 (UTC)

Considering the recent vandalism, I was going to protect the page either way. If sh*t keeps hitting the fan once those chapters come out, I'll extend the protection. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:16, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

Wait, what's up with the locking the page? So what, now only the admins can edit his page? You can't make it to where you have to be a member to edit? --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 02:00, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

Current protection level requires one to be an auto-confirmed users. Basically, you need to have enough edits in Wikia to prove you're an actual user, that's usually 10 edits. We recently requested the central Wiki to make it so that would be 10 edits here, because we have a history of people with accounts made in other wikis come here to vandalize. I have no idea why you wouldn't be able to edit, seeing you already have 100+ edits in this wiki. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:31, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

It won't let me edit this nor the front page for some reason. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 03:08, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

How do I factor into this? Also, Kishimoto cannot talk like that in real life... can he? "Yes his identity will be revealed pleasecontinuewithyourpredictions THANK YOU VERY MUCH!" is what it sounds like in my head =\ Any way, also not for mentioning any of this, we don't do spoilers either way here.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 11:07, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

Well, how will it help this wiki and improve the article?? akz!  15:56, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

I think this info may prevent some people from flooding this talkpage with theories about Tobi's identity... At least for some time. Abe 16:12,8/1/2012

Not that I need to edit now, but can an admin grant me access to this and the front page? I am unable to manage either articles despite having 100+ edits. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 17:38, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

There we go. Gracias. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 17:46, August 1, 2012 (UTC)

Ok, seriously? Why the hell do I keep getting removed from the auto confirmed users group? I have 162 edits.... --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 02:05, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

I don't think that's actually possible, at least to my knowledge. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:27, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

I was listed as an auto confirmed user yesterday, and now I am not and I can't edit certain pages. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 03:52, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

What error do you exactly get? -- http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s145/urbancowgurl777/UltimateSupreme2212-3.png  (Talk to me) 12:36, August 3, 2012 (UTC)

The way Tobi is listed as a Kiri ninja - misleading?
The way he is listed, and the fact that he is marked with the Kiri symbol in the jutsu he is listed as a user makes it look like he was an official Kiri ninja or that his origins are from that village, which is wrong. He was controlling the Mizukage back then, but he wasn't an official Kiri ninja. He was what Kabuto was to the villages that he spied, an intruder. Shouldn't there be written something like (unofficial) or something on his page, and also get the Kiri symbol removed from the lists he is included as a user? Patsoumas1995 (talk) 13:11, August 8, 2012 (UTC)

He was "the Mizukage" there for some time, so theoretically was a Kiri ninja? 0_o--Elveonora (talk) 14:17, August 8, 2012 (UTC)


 * 1) 1 Rule of Narutopedia: Take anything Tobi says with a grain of salt because he is slanderous and deceitful. This includes his origin, so for some unknown reason, he's more of a Kirigakure shinobi than Konohagakure. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 02:29, August 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * O que la... Tobi is not listed as a Konoha nin because he's not Madara, how the fart are we going to list him as a Konoha nin when you don't know who he is? Even going with "he's Izuna", he's still not be associated with the village, because he died before its founding. Think things through man. That being said, you can simply read his article to see why he's affiliated with the village.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 16:57, August 9, 2012 (UTC)

For the sake of preventing a redundant argument, I'm not going to say he's Madara. My point was that he knew exactly where the Uchiha meeting place was, as well as the Naka Shrine, including the Valley of the End He also has an in depth knowledge of the history of Konoha's founding and its people, such as the Uchiha, the Aburame, etc., whereas all he did in Kirigakure was manipulate Yagura and in turn, become the "real" Mizukage.

I was never taking into the account he was Madara nor Izuna, just the actions and knowledge he has displayed. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 20:07, August 9, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yup... That all definitely makes him a Konoha shinobi؟--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 21:36, August 9, 2012 (UTC)

It does make him more of a Konoha shinobi than Kiri, yup. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 03:27, August 10, 2012 (UTC)

Whether or not Tobi has any relation to Konoha or not is a bit off topic. I think it's a valid question as his involvement with the village seems to have been largely secret not to mention invasive. Perhaps being listed as the "Secret Leader of Kirigakure" in the Occupation field and what information is contained in the article is enough. I could go either way though. Arrancar79 (talk) 03:43, August 10, 2012 (UTC)

Just chucking in my 2 cents worth here but why is it that we list tobi as being affiliated with Kiri but not Orochimaru with Sunagakure? The situation is exactly the same, they both Manipulated/Acted as their respective kage. --Kiriako (talk) 15:16, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

I guess i will add Orochimaru as being affiliated with Suna then --Kiriako (talk) 09:29, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

Orochimaru allied himself with Suna and pretended to be the Kazekage for the duration of one mission. Tobi acted as the de facto Mizukage for who knows how long. Big difference. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:51, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

"For who knows how long." And for all you know it was the same duration as Orochimaru? They both acted as a kage regardless for how long. I personally dont think Tobi should be listed as affiliated with Kiri because its confusing for readers but if he is going to be left as such, i think Orochimaru should be affiliated with Suna aswell.

First of all you can tell the durations between Orochimaru pretending to be the Kazekage and Tobi controlling Yagura to be very different. It doesn't really make sense to me, to compare Orochimaru's actions to those of Tobi who controlled Yagura, for what has to be a much more substantial time than the former.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 14:23, August 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Orochimaru only posed as the Kazekage long enough to order the Suna-nin to work with Otogakure in order to invade Konoha.
 * How is this known? - The corpse of the real Kazekage, though in a bad state was still a recognisable body. That brings it down to less than months, if even weeks.
 * Yagura ruled Kirigakure for a substantially longer time.
 * How is that known? - He was there long enough to have a "reign" and give the village the reputation of being the Bloody Mist Village. Now more than likely that was all Tobi (judging from the type of person Yagura seemed to be in his encounter with Naruto).

Orochimaru was affiliated with Suna regardless of how you look at it. I guess i wont get anywhere arguing with the head honchos so i'll just drop it :D--Kiriako (talk) 14:33, August 14, 2012 (UTC)

If you choose to give up on your argument, the people against it won't complain. Though from what you say, every time a shinobi undertakes a mission especially as a spy/covertly, then they should be affiliated with said village which would make Kabuto even more lost.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 14:39, August 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * If anything, nothing is really lost not affiliating Tobi with Kiri to be honest. Regardless is regardless, he was manipulating the Mizukage from the shadows and wasn't truly affiliated with the village. I believe Tobi's only true affiliation was to Akatsuki.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:45, August 14, 2012 (UTC)

Actually im saying exactly the opposite, every time a shinobi undertakes a mission covertly they should not be affiliated with the said village. I only brought up Orochimaru as an example of a ninja who was kind of in the same situation as Tobi but isnt listed as being affiliated, there should be some consistency in deciding for or against. --Kiriako (talk) 15:22, August 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * Well said, I have to agree with TheUltimate3. Arrancar79 (talk) 04:22, August 15, 2012 (UTC)

Giant image
I never really understood why Tobi's image is huge (with unnecessary scenario as background). Why we don't crop it?--Spcmn (talk) 17:18, August 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * Because it's been sysop protected. And fyi, it's not huge, it's small. If it was huge, as you put it, then it would fill the whole page =.= --Speysider Talk Page 17:25, August 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * Then why is protected? Isn't supposed to be a free encyclopedia? Also, don't play the mentally retarded with me, you know what I'm talking about. If you take a look at others characters (Kiba, Iruka, Rock Lee, Izumo), you'll see that their images are focused at their faces without having a whole scenario.--Spcmn (talk) 20:53, August 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * 1)It's locked because some articles have serious problems with vandals, massive conflicts of opinions, and general unpleasantness associated with them, hence the locks.
 * 2)There is honestly nothing wrong with the current image, but if you can find one that is closer, and doesn't show his Sharingan (big important part) then knock yourself out.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 20:57, August 9, 2012 (UTC)

Spcmn is referring to the infobox image, I believe (by cropping it, the image would look "bigger"). I wanted to crop it a long time ago, but as it was protected I didn't bother to pursue it since it's a more "cosmetic" oriented issue rather than one of dire necessity.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 21:28, August 9, 2012 (UTC)

Fought Hashirama...
He claims to Kabuto (who is aware of the man's false identity) that he fought Hashirama and obtained his flesh in one of their fights. Chapter 512, page 9--Elveonora (talk) 03:13, August 10, 2012 (UTC)

Can't edit the page, really no voices on this matter?--Elveonora (talk) 22:30, August 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * You mean inside their base? He may have just been keeping up his cover in case someone was listening in. *shrug* Skarn22 (talk) 00:42, August 15, 2012 (UTC)

Top secret underground base, only he-Tobi, Kabuto and Zetsu were there (not counting Gedo dude and Hashi plant) he clearly stated in front of Kabuto to have fought Hashirama--Elveonora (talk) 01:15, August 15, 2012 (UTC)

Omni, Cerez... anyone?--Elveonora (talk) 17:14, August 17, 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to play the devil's advocate here, and say that this was Kishimoto not wanting to reveal so early that Tobi wasn't really Madara, at least to the readers. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:14, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

I don't know... dunno if Kishi mixes his reasons with canonical reasons, like he could have simply skipped the statement. I prefer the canonical reason, because we as the readers, are supposed to learn and understand what's going on in the manga, not Kishi's head. And by the latter, Kabuto was long aware that Tobi isn't Madara, so the statement would be false. And if you take "Kishi's reason" above that, then that basically translates into "Madara Uchiha created Hashi Living Clone" and if that's the case, we should state that in his article : ) See? It goes both ways... there's a lot of confusion between the actions those by hand of Tobi and Madara... if we take it as a fact that Tobi persuaded Yahiko to create Akatsuki and gave Nagato the Rinnegan, even though he was "I, Uchiha Madara" in that instance (false) and it's still being listed despite the statements not being very credible, I think we should take "I fought Hashirama" above these two as in this case, he wasn't speaking of himself as another person, at least not to us readers.--Elveonora (talk) 13:45, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

The sake of continuity could work here. Mayhaps Kabuto knows more to their story that we do currently- that Tobi and Madara are not physically one in the same. I'd assume this might be revealed down the line, the storyline is still open to that.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 13:58, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

Right, but we either decide upon one or the other, no nitpicking and bias. If we take it as a fact (other Tobi's statement, reflected in his article) then we should also take this one, like: "According to Tobi, he also had fought Hashirama and has received his cells after a battle" or cut the speculative Yahiko and Nagato statements and paste them to Madara's article. I doubt Kishi would do such a thing, especially when it was made clear that the manga is narrated from the in-universe character's perspective, not his.--Elveonora (talk) 14:21, August 18, 2012 (UTC)

Further Changes
Before everyone goes into crazy edit mode, I don't think it should be stated that Tobi has any connection to Obito until it is clearly stated and his name is actually spoken. There could have very well been another Uchiha in the vicinity during the war. For now, I believe it should just be stated that he acquired the eye during the war at the Kannabi Bridge and nothing more. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 04:48, August 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Who said Tobi had a connection with Obito? I at least hope none of the community will be adding that. From the looks of it, Tobi simply stole Obito's eye, nothing more.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 04:49, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

I meant him even possessing Obito's eye. People shouldn't even be using the name "Obito" until his name is explicitly stated, no? --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 04:51, August 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * But the Kanabi Bridge is the connection to Obito. Obito or not, his eye is without a doubt Obito's. That isn't speculation, its fact. The only Uchiha on the site was Obito. One of his eyes went to Kakashi and the other became Tobi's. While we can't state that Tobi is Obito just yet, it is obvious to everyone present that Tobi's Sharingan is Obito's other Sharingan. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 04:51, August 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Outside of "Tobi acquired Obito's eye during SWWIII at the Kanabi Bridge" I don't believe anything else is cannon at the moment. But regardless, the eye is definitely Obito's.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 04:57, August 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * I disagree, Ten Tailed. It was a war, and the Uchiha are known for being very powerful combatants as well as have an appetite for war, so there could have been more in the vicinity at some point. In addition, it makes no sense as to how he could have claimed a crushed Sharingan and actually make use of it when Danzo did the same to Shisui's and there was nothing Tobi could do.

Regardless, the name Obito has not yet been mentioned. There's no point in jumping to conclusions by using a name that hasn't been explicitly stated when pertaining to Tobi. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 05:01, August 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * So, what you're suggesting to me is that maybe, somehow, there was another Uchiha who just happened to have a Sharingan that just happened to have an ability that just happened to be linked to Kakashi's Kamui which was born in Obito's eyes? Also, no, there were no other Uchiha in the vicinity. Kakashi's team was the only team sent to the area. Minato was miles away from them fighting with Konoha's main forces and teleported to them, so the nearest Konoha troops were miles away from Kanabi Bridge. The eye is Obito's. Period. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 05:05, August 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * There was also a flashback of Kakashi in the cemetery, where we know he always goes to visit Obito. Unless there is a massive diversion for a revelation of the calibre of Tobi is, and then Tobi isn't Madara, all signs point to the eye being Obito's. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 05:07, August 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * No. What I'm suggesting is not to jump to conclusions by adding implied information (like with Tobi's Uchiha origin, which I can understand for the moment) when virtually anything is possible within a fictional universe.


 * That flashback was relating to Tobi's statement of "making excuses in front of graves" and had little to nothing to do with his explanation of acquiring his Sharingan. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 05:09, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

Obito and Tobi names are anagram except for one letter. was obito quoting kakashi talking to tobi when he said "I told you, you shouldn't open your mouth so easily"??Holyn (talk) 05:11, August 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * @Uchiha Suraka: No, Omnibender is not stating that. He is stating that all of the flashbacks and dialogue that surrounded the time where Kakashi questioned where Tobi got the eye related to Obito. The Kanabi Bridge is where Obito died and where Tobi and Kakashi got a Sharingan, the regret Tobi keeps shooting at Kakashi is the regret he has over Obito's death, we've all known this, and the grave Kakashi is standing by is Obito's. Since the start of the series, we've known that Kakashi does this. For this to suddenly be some random Uchiha's eye makes no logical sense. This chapter has all fingers pointing at it at least being Obito's eye. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 05:13, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

That is incorrect, to whomever said Obito's Sharingan was crushed and could not be retrieved by Tobi. From what we've seen, in the image of Obito being crushed, it is not shown that the boulder crushed his face. If such a thing happened and his Sharingan was crushed, then that would also mean Obito's face would've also been crushed, subsequently so would his brain, meaning he would've died on the spot. He would not have time to discuss with Kakashi and tell Rin to transplant the eye to Kakashi. Meaning, from simple logic, it can be easily inferred that Obito's other Sharingan eye was still functional. The only thing that we know for sure was that his body was crushed, and body parts in Naruto have been shown to be replaced so many times, it's not even funny. --Silver-Haired Seireitou (talk) 05:14, August 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * Naruto has never replaced his body parts Holyn (talk) 05:18, August 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * He's referring to Naruto the series, not the person. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 05:19, August 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * Just like how all five fingers were pointed towards Tobi being Madara. Is there a reason it can't just be stated that he simply acquired the eye during the Third Shinobi World War at the Kannabi Bridge so we aren't assuming? Because that's what you're doing if you even mention the name "Obito." --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 05:21, August 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * You have a point there. Even though in this case from the evidences shown, it is the only sensible conclusion that it is obito's eye.Holyn (talk) 05:25, August 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * No, its not assuming. Obito was the only Uchiha at the bridge. The war was the war Obito died in. And you're again wrong. From the beginning, there was always doubt that Tobi was Madara. He was alive long after Madara should've been dead. Many characters commented on this. This literally puts Tobi at the site of Obito's death during the war that he died. We already know that he gave away one Sharingan. If Tobi himself isn't Obito, it is 100% fact that his eye is from Obito. Tobi never gave any solid proof for being Madara. He just had a claim. We have evidence that it is Obito, as if the flashbacks and dialogue didn't point more towards it. Even Kakashi looks shaken. That isn't just random events. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 05:26, August 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * Also, I should mention that Tobi said he got the eye "during the battle at the Kanabi Bridge". Not before. Not after. Please tell me who else besides the shinobi Minato slaughtered and Kakashi's team was there? No one. The manga even shows this. Sorry. Its Obito's eye. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 05:29, August 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * So you're saying there's absolutely zero possibility of another Uchiha being around the Kannabi Bridge during a world war? This was obviously after Obito died anyways as Tobi was nowhere to be seen, meaning there was time for him to get there, meaning there was time for others, namely Uchiha, to report to a specific landmark. Yes, you are assuming when you come up with a name that has not been mentioned, no matter how likely or not.


 * Oh, and you want to talk about evidence, buddy? I will give you evidence. Tobi's hair resembled Madara's, Tobi has a fan that is nearly identical to Madara's, Tobi possesses Hashirama's DNA and a living clone of Hashirama in his hideout, and Madara also acquired Hashirama's DNA at some point. Tobi has intimate knowledge about Madara and his brother, Tobi evidently looks like Madara as Kisame recognized him after being recruited by him and questioning his identity, and was well aware he was long dead. Tobi's plan coincides with Madara's, Tobi is able to manipulate Kurama with a Sharingan, just like Madara. Jiraiya, Itachi, Minato, and Nagato, all very intelligent shinobi, speculated Madara was behind the Nine-Tails Attack on Konoha/that Tobi was Madara. Do. Not. talk to me about evidence when the only thing you have is that Tobi acquired "Obito's Sharingan" at the Kannabi Bridge. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 05:36, August 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * Allow me to put this in perspective for you. There was zero. Count it. Zero physical evidence that Tobi was Madara. Tobi's hair most certainly does not look like Madara's. Even that suggestion is ludicrous. Madara's hair is long, Tobi's is more like Naruto's. We didn't know Madara himself had Hashirama's DNA until after it was revealed that Madara and Tobi were not, in fact, one and the same, so that is no evidence at all. The only reason Kisame referred to Tobi as Madara is because Tobi himself claimed that he was Madara. Kisame had never seen the real Madara for himself. Tobi and Madara are stated to have known each other, thus why their plans are similar, but we found out during Madara's fight with the Kage that he lived after his fight with Hashirama, so it is plausible to see how they could've met.


 * Now that that argument has been picked apart. Allow me to answer your initial question. Yes. I am telling you that there is absolutely no chance. None. Nada. Zitch. Zero. That there was any other Uchiha at Kanabi Bridge during the battle. Read the manga chapter in which it occured. I just did. The only ninja present were those of the Hidden Rock, Kakashi, Rin, Obito, and later on, Minato. That's it. All. No one else. Tobi claims he got the Sharingan during the battle. Kakashi also got his eye during the battle. I'll let you figure the rest out. We all have. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 05:45, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

No one said there was no possibility but from the way I understand these dōjutsu work, that person would have had to have been a close relative of Obito's i.e. parents or his sibling in order for that to happen. Even then would their dōjutsu share the same other dimension? That is more improbable that Tobi digging through rubble and taking Obito's eye. All of this is just starting to feel like you're trying to further your own agenda. Ten-Tailed Fox, I'd also like to advise against continuing that discussion with Uchiha Saraku, you can check the previous discussions and archives and you'll see that you're starting the never-ending discussion again...--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 05:48, August 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * No worries. I planned on ending it with that. There is nothing more to be said. The facts are present. Nothing can change them. I'm not trying to say he is Obito, even though I do think that now more than ever. I'm just saying it is highly improbable that his eye is anything but Obito's. I'll leave it at that. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 05:53, August 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * Rofl. Tobi's hair didn't look like Madara's during the Uchiha Clan Massacre/Kirikagure? Hahahahaha, ok. Moving on...Tobi definitely had Hashirama's DNA prior to revealing it. That's how at least White Zetsu was conceived, and weas around during at least part 1. You're currently at 0 for 2. Kisame was skeptical about his identity and Tobi then stepped out of the shadows to reveal himself. That is right before Kisame interrupts and bit off his tongue and committed suicide, and that is why Kisame refers to him as Mizukage and Madara in chapter 404 after removing his mask. Oh, and yeah, he had no idea what Madara looked like. There's just a massive statue of him outside the Fire Country that no one has seen. You're really not doing that well in this argument right now. No explanation for being able to control Kurama? I thought so. No explanation for having an in depth knowledge about Madara and Izuna? What a surprise. You have a point that he said during the war, but to be able to grow that much and fight on par with his teacher in just a year after his supposed death is illogical and unreasonable. No matter what is said, Obito's name was not used in this chapter.

@Cerez Kamui is stated to be usable by any Mangekyo user if they train their chakra enough. This completely contradicts Kakashi's statement about only his and Tobi's jutsu being connected. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 06:03, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

Well look at that lol I will admit that I totally forgot how persons obtain Kamui, however, that does not mean that because everyone can potentially use it, that they all share the same dimension. Given that there are a lot of unknowns in the situation, we cannot just assume out of convenience that another Uchiha happened to be there, else why go through all that trouble of getting the eye at the kannabi bridge when he has a lab full of Sharingans he could just "train" and acquired Kamui.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 06:16, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

The main point I was trying to get across is that it is unnecessary to call out names that haven't been mentioned when there are limitless possibilities in this fictional series, regardless of how likely it may be. Is that not a reasonable conclusion? --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 06:25, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

I'm new here so please bear with me...If Tobi's right eye is Obito's sharingan, then how do you explain his left eye before he got Nagato's Rinnegan? Before he got the Rinnegan he had a set of sharingan, both left and right. Then he lost his left eye after that battle with Konan. Where did it come from? Did he get it from another unknown Uchiha?George762 (talk) 08:23, August 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Tobi could have gotten that Sharingan from anywhere or it was his. He has a lab full of eyes and makes it a hobby to collect "good eyes". That eye and the right one could be totally unrelated, as he easily sacrificed it for Izanagi.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 08:38, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

So then the "Obito" angle is still under speculation. For all we know Tobi could have just saw the battle at Kannabi Bridge. And apparently Tobi is not the most honest guy. He's been lying throughout the series, one example is him being Madara Uchiha, we all know that was a lie.George762 (talk) 08:58, August 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Aye. Tobi's identity, at least for some of us, is still up for grabs.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 09:00, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

If I may, I think I have a related statement to this discussion, since the speculation is very high for Tobi having Obito's right eye to compliment Kakashi's left, and the differing effects of Kamui and the Space-time migration one pulling you into the void (STM) and the other seemingly pushing you into it (Kamui) there would seem to be a rather strong hint towards a uniform parent technique if say Obito ever obtained his mangekyou on his own and harnessed both techniques with his eyes intact, since it is shown that they share a pocket space, and we have seen evidence that a user can use their mangekyou technique (Danzou with Kotoamatsukami) without transforming their eye into the mangekyou state meaning that Tobi just had more time to master it than Kakashi (that and Tobi's body alterations). If this was placed in the wrong place here then feel free to move it, just placing an idea out there. --"Hello, I'm the Doctor; Basically...... Run." (Appointments?) 09:49, August 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Relevant to this entire discussion I don't feel like reading.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:28, August 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * We have also never see Danzō actually use Kotoamatsukami, for one the eye was covered at the time and two we, the readers were only made aware of it after he had done so by Ao-thief-chan. For the time being I also believe it can be left as if, if we turn out to be wrong, we'll just edit accordingly. However I will say that Kishimoto continues to throw us curve balls every week and will more than likely continue until we find out who Tobi is.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk)

Obviously Obito's eye, but surely not him being Obito, the page should be locked because I smell Obitards. Also Tobi's hair is indeed identical to Madara's, just short. Assuming the man controlling Yagura was Tobi and not Madara. I even had a comparison picture saved somewhere of "Tobi" controlling Yagura shown from behind, the same for Edo Madara and the hair is just like if Kishi has copied and pasted it there. Also Tobi having Hashirama's DNA/cells is not confirmed, I think the article should be reworded because we are yet to see any Wood Release, but he sure has some SENJU DNA (Perfect usage of Izanagi) not to mention he may be even a Senju with a Sharingan, lol.--Elveonora (talk) 21:23, August 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * I should point out that his current hairstyle looks closer to Obito's than it ever did to Madara's. And besides, hairstyle as evidence is circumstantial at best, because anyone can get a haircut... As for having Hashirama's cells, he does appear to have them since he has that, uh, clone statue thing in his base. It's true that we haven't seen him use wood release, but if what he said about Izanagi was true then he must be capable of it on some level. Perhaps Zetsu is a product of his wood release. /speculation Skarn22 (talk) 01:26, August 15, 2012 (UTC)

if you will, allow me to maybe shed some light onto this subject. it seems that Mangekyos work on the Snowflake Rule for those of you who don't know what that is its that 2 snowflakes will never ever share the same pattern or in this case Sharingans (unless the Sharingan are from the same person then they have the same pattern).

and if you look at Kakashi's Mangekyo and Tobi's Mangekyo you can see that they are in fact the same pattern meaning that they would have to be from the same person, there is no other way of getting around it Tobi's Mangekyo is Obito's. The patterns are the same and they share the same power and same pocket dimension and such so it has to be from the same person.

as for Tobi being of Uchiha blood (I saw this kinda being argued here as well) I remember in the Anime and Manga that it was said that Kakashi keeps his Sharingan covered because he is not of Uchiha blood and therefore it has some ill effects on him and uses his Chakra if he keeps it uncovered however if you Look at Tobi he has always had one eye uncovered and that eye had a Sharingan in it (Itachi kept his on all the time even though he could have turned it off) if Tobi wasnt of Uchiha blood wouldn't he have to keep it covered like Kakashi as it would have the same effects on him? that would make logical sense unless he somehow has unlimited Chakra.

now I am not saying that he is Obito (I dont even know why that would be a discussion we saw Obito die right before our eyes and I dont think Clones or Dead Souls last for as long as it would have to be from that battle till now in the story [close to 15-20 Years if I did my Math right]) I am saying however that with the evidence Kishimoto has presented us with it would make sense that its Obito's Eye and that he is of Uchiha blood even if Obito's name has not officially been said by anyone about it the evidence we have of them sharing the same pattern (all other Mangekyos up to this point have had the same pattern if they belonged to the same person) so we can conclude that its Obito's eye without it having to be mentioned.Lordofninjas1 (talk) 03:29, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

Bug
Once Kurama broke free, Tobi placed the Tailed Beast under his control and ordered it to destroy Konaha.GothicWarrior  (Dyskusja)  16:09, August 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * ? --Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 16:38, August 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * ??? What do you mean?? akz! ANBU Symbol.svg 16:40, August 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * He is trying to say that "Konoha" is misspelled as "Konaha" --74.170.139.46 (talk) 18:27, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

Time Line
It's just a minor thing but didn't the thing about Tobi manipulating the 3rd Mizukage happen before the Konoha attack? :O FirePit (talk) 21:44, August 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * We don't really know when that happened, it's just last because that is the latest thing with no clear indication of placement in timeline to be added. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:48, August 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * oh ok FirePit (talk) 21:51, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

It happened before the clan massacre. Zabuza wasn't enrolled at academy when he killed his comrades. -- The Goblin  22:04, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

Actually we do know, Tobi controlled Yagura after the attack on Konoha (in case it was really him) as Zabuza massacred academy students during Yagura's reign and that was 11 years before the start of the series.--Elveonora (talk) 22:22, August 12, 2012 (UTC)

Background
"his true identity concealed with only a Sharingan seen behind his mask. " shouldn't this be changed? we have seen his other sharingan and his rinnegan...Holyn (talk) 15:11, August 13, 2012 (UTC)

Sharingan
In the Sharingan subheading under the Dōjutsu heading on the Tobi page, shouldn't there be something about how his right Sharingan belonged to Obito Uchiha?--
 * I believe the information is already represented in his article.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 09:48, August 14, 2012 (UTC)

Obito's eyes
Sorry, I am new to this thing, and don't know how to add on to a previous topic, but there was much debate about Tobi having Obito's eyes or that of another Uchiha. One key piece of evidence missed out was that Killer B asked Kakashi how two jutsu could share the same dimension. Furthermore, Kakashi theorized that Tobi was using a single technique which was used to transport his limbs out of harm's way, but when Kakashi used Kamui it moved any attack to that same dimension.

From what I understand about the author, he is not someone who randomly adds in characters at critical moments, and Tobi did say he got his eye from the Kanabi Bridge battle during the war. The only known Uchiha there at the time was Obito. The fact that each Sharingan (I'm assuming) is unique to each user, would mean that the techniques also vary from user to user; e.g Susanoo. For Tobi and Kakashi to use a technique that uses the same principles and dimensions would therefore mean that the two eyes would have to have a link. As such, to me at least, Tobi's eye is Obito's other eye.

So now we have seen Tobi using the Mangekyō Sharingan. How should the respective pages be edited. Should we put it down for Obito as well or not?

Appearance
Should Tobi's skin color be mentioned in the "Appearance" section? If so should it be added that his skin color is darker in the anime than the manga?--Trogdor247 (talk) 22:42, August 19, 2012 (UTC)

It isn't.--Elveonora (talk) 01:43, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

I know it is not i was wondering if it should be added. --Trogdor247 (talk) 01:46, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

No characters have the exact color tone same in anime and manga. Tobi's in the anime isn't any noticeably different, unless you have some images to prove me wrong--Elveonora (talk) 02:11, August 20, 2012 (UTC)

Mangekyō Sharingan pics?
Since it official now that Tobi have the Mangekyō Sharingan shouldn't we add a pic of it just like we did for Kakashi? if anyone can find a good pic that it.--Tchad1 (talk) 13:14, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

Interesting Thought
Now, I'm not saying or speculating that Tobi is Obito, but for the sake of a question that's been on my mind for some time, if they are the same... do we merge the two articles together?--Megiddo09 (talk) 13:50, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

No.--Elveonora (talk) 13:54, August 22, 2012 (UTC)


 * So blunt. If they were the same we would have no choice I would think.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:55, August 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually if they are, which I will doubt until the appointed day, we would have no choice but to merge. It's the same thing we did with Madara.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:01, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

i have a question it not speculation tho just a simple question .. Tobi told Kakashi, ill show you the power of the real Kamui not the one from your borrowed power. so my question is, if his eye is borrowed from obito like we think .. how can he even pretend to show Kakashi the real power of Kamui ? --Tchad1 (talk) 13:59, August 22, 2012 (UTC)
 * I believe that was an attempt to allude to Tobi's blood lineage, not the fact that he took the eye from an Uchiha.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:01, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

ok i was ust curious but thank for this answer Cerez--Tchad1 (talk) 14:06, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I think the same. "Borrowed power" doesn't mean Tobi is Obito, but an Uchiha--Elveonora (talk) 14:11, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

Glad to see I was not the only one who interpreted that statement that way. Now my question is, when Tobi is confirmed as a form of Madara once and for all (excuse my ignorance), are the articles going to be re-emerged into one gigantic one or would Tobi remain his separate character? I feel like it's a bit...insulting to just throw all of this information into another article considering that he would no matter what, he is a different entity from Madara.

And my other question is, how do we know Space-Time Migration is a Mangekyo technique? We've never seen the design when he's utilizing said ninjutsu. Isn't it jumping the gun stating it is? Especially when the only time he activates it is when he plans on using Kamui. Had STM been a Mangekyo technique, it would've already been active, no? I mean he's been showing off his regular Sharingan the entire time. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 18:57, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

But there was never a shot of his eye while using the space-time migration. And if Tobi turns out to be "Madara" then that's gonna be fucking confusing, at first separating the two only to merge them again 0_o--Elveonora (talk) 22:57, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

Which is why there was never a reason to separate them to begin with until we knew for sure who Tobi was, but whatever. I think it makes sense to keep them apart when it is confirmed next or the following week.

And yes, there is.--Uchiha Suraku (talk) 23:14, August 22, 2012 (UTC)

There has been plenty of reason to split them, but this is not the point of this section. I looked at the page you mentioned, when he does he takes in the explosion in his fight against Konan, and that doesn't show which design is in his eyes when he uses the technique. Considering what we learned this chapter, I think it's least speculative to list STM as a MS technique. What Tobi did after saying he would show Kamui is no different than what we have always seen him doing. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:04, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

the timing makes no sense for obito to be tobi, when tobi attacked the village there was a shot of kakashi still as a child/teen while tobi was a grown man, this shouldn't even be considered 203.118.174.217 (talk) 07:03, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I want everyone to think about this very carefully and please do not delete. If tobi is in actuality not intangible and just transporting that part of his body to the other dimension, and if he must become tangible to transport himself, or his body has to be in the naruto dimension, then does that mean that while he's sending that part of his body to the other dimension, He would be able to be hit by an attack while he was transporting that part of his body to the other dimension? and how come we don't see the swirly distortion in his eyes whenever he becomes 'intangible', or transports a part of his body to the other dimension.--24.166.174.117 (talk) 01:24, August 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * Question 1: No, the attack would go through him. Question 2: Because Kishi decided that's the way the technique would look like when performing those. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:04, August 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * @Omnibender's previous reply: And because there is no pupil whatsoever, that's why it's hard to even declare it a Sharingan technique, let alone an ability of the MS. Though I agree that aside from increasing the quantity of objects that could be summoned, Tobi's Space-Time Migration did not appear any differently than normally when he activated the Mangekyo. --Uchiha Suraku (talk) 02:22, August 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Please don't try threading replies, this isn't Message Wall. Kakashi's understanding of his technique puts the source of the technique as the eye, and Tobi's explanation of getting the eye corroborates that idea. The fact they share the same dimensions also points in that direction. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:48, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

(Question 1: No, the attack would go through him.) Okayyyy..... Why, I mean do you have any evidence to the contrary. So are you saying that him transporting his whole body to the other dimension and him transferring a part of his own body two different things?--24.166.174.117 (talk) 03:45, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

Tsunade's Assumption
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Tobi#Other_Skills

"Overall, due to being imbued with the First Hokage's cells, Tobi has managed to extend his life to the point where it is believed by others that he may have become immortal."

I went back and looked at the source and apparently this was just Tsunade's assumption back when he was under the guise of Madara and she learned he had the first Hokage's cells, which she thought he used to extend his life. I'm not saying completely omit this line, but I recommend editing this line for that clarity. Nexus32 (talk) 08:09, August 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Done.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 09:32, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

Tobi's Kamui?
"Having obtained Obito Uchiha's Sharingan, Tobi has also gained access to the Mangekyō Sharingan through unknown means. With it, he can use techniques such as Kamui and his Space–Time Migration".

According to me this sentence is wrong, because at the moment we haven't evidence that Tobi can use the Kamui (the jutsu could be just of the left eye's MS of Kakashi, like the jutsu of Tobi prerogative of the right one).

I know that Tobi in the last chapter said to Kakashi that he would shown him the true power of the Kamui, but then he has just used his usual jutsu. So, if with the word Kamui we mean just the particular teleportation of Kakashi and not also the space-time migration of Tobi (like IMO the character has done in the last chapter), I think that until now we can't say that Tobi can use Kamui.--JK88 (talk) 10:09, August 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * I agree with this. Once again, the wiki is too speculative. If we go by the facts, it's as follow: Tobi has the Mangekyō Sharingan and he wants to show Kakashi the Kamui's true power. What he has done is using the Jikūkan Idō, as always. He didn't even visibly used his MS. Saying that he actually can use Kamui should only be added when he has done it. The same with the MS: JI should only be marked as an MS JUtsu when it's clear that it's used with an MS. Seelentau 愛議 11:26, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

Fixed, curiously enough, I just realised his right eye is carefully hidden after showing them the MS.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 11:33, August 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * Or on the contrary, we should arrive to the conclusion that the Space-Time Migration actually is just another way to use Kamui, and join the pages of the two jutsu (I know that in the third databook are in two separated pages, but the databook follow the plot of the manga at the moment). Just like the Susanoo, they are all with different abilities, anyway are considered just the same jutsu and are all described in the same article.


 * Anyway for now I think is still early to do other things than simply to remove the use of the Kamui from Tobi.--JK88 (talk) 11:41, August 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * Slight correction, Susanoo has in fact not shown different abilities, just different tools. Susanoo on its own is a giant ethereal warrior clad in armor wielding weapons based on their user. Other than that they all preformed the same. Kumai and Space-Time Migration share the same dimension, but function differently (Kumai is long range, SPM is short, Kumai just requires line of sight, SPM requires physical contact).--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:50, August 23, 2012 (UTC)


 * Agreed. For now, we should not be quick to make assumptions, let's just wait for the next (few) chapters before merging (or not merging) the articles and saying JI is a MS Jutsu. Seelentau 愛議 13:15, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

Actually in the translation i read he does directly relate his technique to kakashi's and calls kakashi's a barrowed kamui and his a real kamui.
 * He called Kakashi's power a borrowed one because Kakashi is not an Uchiha, whereas Tobi was pointing to the fact that he is. He didn't call Kakashi's Kamui a borrowed version the way you're making it out to be, and his real.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 13:48, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

Change Space-Time Jutsu
It grants him two distinct, yet similar, feats: intangibility and teleportation. that is a direct line from this page but it is not correct, in the chapter One Jutsu we learn when him becomes intangible is simply the teleporation on himself to a different degree then when he teleports completely.

Sign your posts, I'm also very confused myself. Konan's explanation and Kakashi's explanation are different. Why there's this swirl pattern when he teleports to a different place and and when he teleports others and releases them? It can't be the same, as we have seen Tobi making Sasuke intangible by touching him, thus physically in the other dimension... so why there was this swirl pattern when sucking him to the other dimension? Not to mention Kakashi says, intangibility = teleporting himself to the other dimension, but Konan said he can't teleport in ghost mode.--Elveonora (talk) 18:15, August 23, 2012 (UTC)

Actually there's nothing wrong with it. In order to spare what should be confusion, we simply call one warping stuff away and the other, "intangibility". At least to me, I believe that's a good way to make a distinction between the two way he uses the ability.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 18:27, August 23, 2012 (UTC)