Talk:Madara Uchiha

SPECULATION WILL BE REMOVED

Kabuto didn't enhance Madara's power
Chapter 601 has provided an effective explanation of what Kabuto meant by "resurrecting Madara beyond his prime". We saw that Madara was elderly, much more so than the likes of Danzo, Hiruzen or the elders. Like 85+ years old. And still, he was resurrected in his youthful form. That's what Kabuto's experimentation was about. He managed to revive Madara with all the power he has amassed right until his death, yet in a youthful body. That's what makes him "complete beyond his prime". It's not like Kabuto added any powers to Madara, he just made him young again (Madara himself said very much the same thing). I thereby suggest to reword all the instances suggesting that Kabuto's experimentation made Madara more powerful. It should be stated more as that it brought him back in his youthful body but with all the powers he had acquired until his old age, inclusive. Xfing (talk) 19:15, September 11, 2012 (UTC)

No, reviving his into his prime = making him young again. "Beyond his prime" = stronger than in his youth.--Elveonora (talk) 21:24, September 11, 2012 (UTC)


 * That's what I said. He's revived into his prime age-wise, but has powers exceeding it, like the Rinnegan he awakened shortly before his death. So what Kabuto did is just revive Madara young with all the powers he amassed into old age. This doesn't mean for example that the Hashirama face on Madara's chest is an effect of Kabuto's work like the article suggests. Xfing (talk) 21:21, September 16, 2012 (UTC)

Can I please add that it never said the old guy with the sharingan madara? For all we know it could be a random old uchiha who introduced him to madara for all we know... Speculation... 166.147.89.161 (talk) 03:56, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

-_- it looks exactly like Madara but old so there is no way it is anybody else... and Elveonora is right from what I see. 173.66.119.89 (talk) 09:41, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

People ****ing need to learn some reading comprehension or/and check their eyes, ur like 100th person with "who was that old guy?" doubt and question. It looks like old Madara, and the flashback happened after Kakashi asked Obito why did he join him.--Elveonora (talk) 15:40, September 12, 2012 (UTC)


 * There is no need to go off on people like that. Not everyone will be as quick on the uptake as you are. When I first saw the face, for a moment I thought Nagato was back... People will get things wrong sometimes--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:57, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, of course not everyone is a fast-thinker ... but when dozens of people don't get it, there's something wrong. I have seen people stating absurdities about things in a chapter that weren't even there, like slime coming from Obito's arm, while that was a piece of clothing etc. Since the flashback was in response to a question about Madara, the old dude there was obviously him. And lol Cerez, since when was Nagato that old back then and with a Sharingan? :) They just look very alike (in before adopted son/clone theories)--Elveonora (talk) 17:00, September 12, 2012 (UTC)

Guys, back on topic. I will try to explain my reasoning. This is all based on facts, there's little if any speculation involved. Kabuto said that Madara has been restored beyond his prime. "Prime" can be considered as the pinnacle of power as well as young age. Let's look at what Madara had in life.

[+] - he had it [-] - he lacked it

Prime Madara: [+] EMS [+] Young Age [-] Hashirama Tissue/Wood Release [-] Rinnegan

Older Madara [+] EMS [+] Hashirama Tissue/Wood Release [+] Rinnegan - progressed from EMS in conjunction with Senju DNA

Super Old Madara [-] Rinnegan - he gave it away to Nagato [-] Young Age [+] Hashirama Tissue/Wood Release - actually he'd probably been experimenting with that shit ever since the battle at VotE. He already had the flower tree grown etc.

Now what Kabuto meant by enhancing Madara is the following: 1) he resurrected him in his prime, age-wise, (normal Edo would have revived him an old man), while at the same time having access to powers he unlocked way later in life, i.e. past his prime. Like the Wood Release he got only after VotE and working with Hashirama tissue. 2) he resurrected him with his peak abilities intact, that is assuming that Hashirama really did fuck him up after the battle at VotE. And I think he really did, if he hadn't, then why didn't Madara start wreaking havoc again right after he healed up? He probably really did become the shell of his former self, and normal Edo Tensei would have revived him as such. I admit that this point is speculative, though, so it can be skipped. 3) he resurrected him with his original pair of eyes (that is the Rinnegan), even though Madara lacked these eyes at the time of his death. Normal Edo would have resurrected him with that single little left Sharingan replacement instead.

That's what Kabuto meant by saying Madara was completed beyond his prime. He indeed was - he was young and yet possessed abilities he never had in his youth (not until after the VotE battle, at least). that's why he was "enhanced beyond his prime". '''It's erroneous, though, to think that Kabuto created any of these abilities, as Madara did it himself. He even said so.''' Kabuto merely took them all and put them in the right place - that is, the young body of Madara.

Edo Madara: [+] Young Age [+] EMS [+] Hashirama Tissue/Wood Release [+] Rinnegan

Not to mention the Edo Tensei perks. Now compare this to Prime Madara and see why this one's better. Xfing (talk) 15:59, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

Susanoo ?
http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/File:Madara%27s_chakra_and_gunbai.jpg is that some kind of susanoo ? or just his chakra being chanelled through the gunbai and shaped into a wall against the outer path's spears ?--201.1.21.80 (talk) 11:18, September 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Going with the former.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 11:19, September 12, 2012 (UTC)
 * Gonna have to disagree there. The chakra begins being channeled immediately when Madara grabs his gunbai. In the next panel, when the shield actually appears, he is see holding his gunbai in a defensive position, whereas when he received it, he was just holding out beside him. There is some significance with that. Furthermore, in the panels following that one, when the barrier flares up, its just that, a barrier. There are no bones and none of the typical formations of Susanoo. Thirdly, Susanoo has never been formed into a wall before. We have seen Madara extensively use his Susanoo in earlier battles and have seen both Itachi and Sasuke make liberal use of their Susanoo, and in none of its three incarnations has it shown to be A) just chakra manifesting without any skeletal structure and B) forming into a wall-like structure. This is obviously coming from the gunbai and is some kind of barrier technique. I doubt it is the Uchiha Flame Battle Encampment, but it is clear that it is coming from the gunbai and that it is not Susanoo. I'll make a page for it, but if anyone disagrees with me, just have it deleted. The evidence is sufficient to suggest in favor of this argument though. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 03:55, September 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * EDIT: Not to mention, seen here the sheild Madara creates covers himself AND Obito as well as the aura around just their bodies. Susanoo only covers one person at a time. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 04:00, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

It looks like Susanoo. Arrancar79 (talk) 04:46, September 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes and the Uchiha Flame Battle Encampment looks like the Four Violet Flames Battle Encampment. The point is, numerous techniques are virtual look alikes in terms of how they are colored and appeared, but just because an attack is colored like Susanoo doesn't make it Susanoo. Like I said, there are no bones, there is no nothing that would indicate Susanoo. Nothing at all. Not even a small fragment. Even the way it used is fundamentally different from Susanoo. In all instances of Susanoo being used for defense, the user at least manifests the ribcage. Using a wall has never happened. Nor has a Susanoo ever covered two people at once in its aura in just its initial state (or any stage for that matter, while all three panels clearly show it covering both Obito and Madara. That alone is enough evidence it isn't Susanoo. Furthermore, the chakra is literally shown covering just the gunbai the page after the barrier is used. The gunbai was placed in a defensive position before the barrier manifested. The gunbai is clearly the source of the barrier. Not Madara. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 04:58, September 13, 2012 (UTC)

Wind nature or Return of Uchiha?
As we never saw what Madara did in the AMV from the game exactly, would it be less speculative to think it was RoU or was the anime only wind nature from something else I missed? Arrancar79 (talk) 04:19, September 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Personally, I have the game and have seen the cut scene for myself, and its pretty obvious what happened. There's a gust of wind knocking back a large amount of ninja, followed by the scene cutting to Madara with his gunbai. Though he is not seen in the action of swinging the fan, you have to use common sense here to deduce who is using it. So yes, his usage of the fan to produce wind gusts in the OVA is considered anime usage. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 05:03, September 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * I have the game myself and have watched the scene many times. I wasn't questioning who used it but questioning what happened. He was attacked then we see his attackers blown back accompanied by a disturbance of the air and flattened grass. It was not much of a stretch then to guess what happened but knowing what we know now I believe it is more responsible to attribute it to a use of Return of Uchiha. Unless RoU is stated to have a Wind nature it should be removed till he's seen using a Wind jutsu IMO. Arrancar79 (talk) 23:40, September 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * I've seen the video of those scenes at youtube, and it was pretty clear for me that he made a gust of wind with his gunbai, the likes of which only makes sense through the use of Wind Release. I wouldn't say Uchiha Return is a Wind Release, but it should still be there as long as those scenes are considered anime. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:53, September 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * I have to disagree. It's speculative to continue citing Madara as having a Chakra nature based on so little. He's never used a wind technique and we now see he has the ability to redirect force/jutsu with his war fan. Arrancar79 (talk) 00:15, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * What are you suggesting them? To consider the thing he did in the ova as Uchiha Return? It didn't seem like a defensive move to me, it seemed quite offensive. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:57, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes that's what I'm suggesting. I don't see a difference in how he used it against Naruto rushing him and the group be knocked away. Arrancar79 (talk) 02:11, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Against Naruto, he turned the force of his own attack against him. I don't recall any attack being directed at Madara for him to reflect at any opponent, there might have been some shinobing running towards him, but it was Madara who made the first attack. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:18, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * They were both attacking. He swung his fan as they lept at him. Return of Uchiha is a reasonable explanation for what happened, more so than than to attribute a new elemental nature to him and an un-named wind technique IMO. Arrancar79 (talk) 02:43, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Just watched the video at youtube again. I guess it could be Uchiha Return, but I find it very odd that the force of reflecting taijutsu and maybe a few blades would cause so much of the vegetation at his feet to bend. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:54, September 15, 2012 (UTC)

Sorry didn't see this when I reverted. I don't believe that the techniques I saw in the ova fight and the one in the manga are the same. They're repelling entirely different things and I'd feel much more comfortable listing him as having Wind Release as opposed to saying it was this technique. Cerez 365 ™(talk) 12:30, September 15, 2012 (UTC)

I'm for the Wind Release being kept (there's anime only for a purpose so people know it's not canon) because by your suggestion, it would be much more confusing and shitting on canon as at the time the scene was animated, Return of the Uchiha wasn't yet revealed in the manga so the animators had no idea such things exists--Elveonora (talk) 21:39, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * I can accept the wind nature but it wouldn't be the first thing to show up in Anime first and then manga. If I remember right, Kishi was involved in those scenes as well but maybe not, either way I digress. :) Arrancar79 (talk) 09:07, September 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * Kishimoto was not involved in those scenes, any at all. If what was done in the OVA and the manga are supposed to be the same, then that would mean that all those people Madara blew away jumped on his gunbai and all those weapons did so as well. I was thinking about it and Madara waited for Naruto to make contact with the gunbai before using the technique instead of just blowing him out of the air. Which is why I doubt those two instances are the same.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 10:04, September 16, 2012 (UTC)

Picture
I know this was discussed before, but this really bugs me. Isn't there an adequate and "colored" (the current one is colored but is b&W) picture to put in the infobox?--Holyn (talk) 18:08, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * There is not. At least not to my knowledge.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 10:07, September 16, 2012 (UTC)

Abilities contradiction
I noticed a contradiction in the Abilities section. There is on part that says "After activating his Rinnegan and using it in conjunction with his Susanoo", yet in the Rinnegan heading it states "However, it sould be noted that while using the powers granted by one dōjustu he cannot simultaneously access those granted by another." So can he use both the Rinnegan and Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan at the same time or no?

the latter line is 100% speculative and should be removed... he uses Susanoo with Rinnegan all the time, and it's logical that in order to use Rinnegan powers, he has to activate it, just like a Sharingan can't use MS powers--Elveonora (talk) 18:46, September 16, 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't change the fact that after having the Rinnegan activated, he had to switch to EMS to cast genjutsu at the Raikage. At least some abilities are restrained to each dōjutsu. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:06, September 16, 2012 (UTC)

Alrighty that clears things up a little Konoha&#39;sBlackXandXWhiteFlash (talk) 02:13, September 17, 2012 (UTC)

Madara gave Nagato
Madara gave Nagato his eyes when Nagato was a kid... So Nagato Possess's the Sharingan and Eternal Mangekyo too. 173.66.119.89 (talk) 07:21, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * We don't know how it works. From everything we've seen, Nagato only has access to the Rinnegan.--210.56.81.34 (talk) 09:33, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree with the former. At least wait for the rest of the story.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 09:52, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

Or he just never used it on panel... he probably used it to use genjutsu such as on those ame ninja he put extremely powerful genjutsu blocks in. we don't know either way. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 10:22, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * Things like ^that is exactly why we should wait. We don't have to be piecing anything together, Kishimoto is telling us the story, for now, we make mention what was said in the manga and leave it at that...--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 10:30, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

Didn't Madara say he left his real eyes with someone else? When Obito was posing as him he told Konan "I gave Nagato the Rinnegan." That's evidence enough, IMO. And as for Nagato not possessing the Sharingan, Kakashi can't shut his Sharingan off because he's not an Uchiha, so it stands to reason Nagato can't shut the Rinnegan off either. At least this chapter confirms Madara created Zetsu. 207.216.193.120 (talk) 12:29, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

why, any user can't wait for a few more weeks to get more Information? --MaskedManMadara (talk) 16:51, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

Loss of power
What proof has their been that Madara had lost any of his powers in his old age. Chapter 602 points more to not being able to use them due to not having two Sharingan and because of dwindled chakra reserves rather than actually having lost them. What Tobi has never been proven. It was just his statement and was probably something he said to make his story about being Madara and resorting to that method sound believable. But there has never been any proof backing him up. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 17:50, September 19, 2012 (UTC))
 * That statement was already changed...--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk)18:01, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I just saw. Sorry. The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 18:08, September 19, 2012 (UTC))

Nagato
Madara said he entrusted his eyes to someone else!!!!!!! Could it be nagato? I mean, it's all there. He said he awakened his Rinnegan shortly before his death, and gave it to nagato. Someone please comment, or at least say it's likely.--24.166.174.117 (talk) 20:24, September 19, 2012 (UTC)
 * . -- The Goblin  20:30, September 19, 2012 (UTC)

Gedo Mazo life support system beginning
Why should we say in Madara's article that he was on the Gedo Mazo from the time he sustained the injuries in the last fight with Hashirama until he died when he himself has not said he was and we don't know that he was? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 22:46, September 20, 2012 (UTC))
 * The "Mazou" that he mentions isn't the Gedo Mazo, but Hashirama's Living Clone and that term (mazou) means statue --MaskedManMadara (talk) 18:25, September 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * The Mazō is there in the image of him announcing himself to Obito. You have to strain your eyes because of the scans but the statue is there sitting in the yet-to-be fully-opened flower. If Madara had meant Hashirama's Living Clone he would have referred to it as what he did when he told Obito that he had used it to reconstruct his body; that clone isn't a statue.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 18:31, September 21, 2012 (UTC)
 * oh, yeah? I don't know it, I think it to be a statue O_O. but thanks Cerez365, is more things that I know now. MaskedManMadara (talk) 18:48, September 21, 2012 (UTC)

Why does it say that his injuries from his last fight with Hashirama caused him to have to be on the statue from that point till death when that can't be? He'd need the Rinnegan, which he didn't have then, to summon it and make use of that chakra and he himself didn't say he had been on the Mazo since that last fight. Why should the article say that as though it were a fact that he was? The Fox King(tylerbryant547@gmail.com (talk) 23:32, September 21, 2012 (UTC))

That's a speculation and should be removed... not to mention that would make it more than 40 years he was trapped underground.--Elveonora (talk) 23:48, September 21, 2012 (UTC)

He could'nt have been on the mazou life support (oh i love to say that) from Hashirama's victory t'ill Obito wound up in his underground passageway. Because he would have needed to give that "person" (most likely Nagato) his eyes (most likely the rinnegan), and he was alive for decades and decades after his suppossed defeat, so i'd think that he was incredibley old by that point.98.26.240.62 (talk) 00:02, September 22, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan

No man. Madara walked away from the fight and then lived a healthy and happy life. Sewed some wild oats (hence we have Nagato and Rasputia Uchiha) and then contracted cancer in his old age. What we saw there was just chemotherapy with primitive machinery... That's definitely what happened.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 11:50, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

No Reaper Death Seal?
For someone who lost against Hashirama, Madara seems like he is a much bigger threat as a resurrected shinobi, but I suppose that can also be due to situations. Hashirama was sealed away by the Reaper Death Seal and was limited to the space in the barrier on the rooftop. Madara is also able to use Hashirama's abilities thanks to Kabuto's implants. I'm wondering if he is now more powerful than Hashirama was, or perhaps the only reason Hashirama and Tobirama were defeated was due to the Reaper Death Seal. This makes me wonder, was Hiruzen the only person left who knew the technique at the time, or are there Uzumaki shinobi, or any other shinobi, who know the technique but won't use it? Diamonddeath (talk) 04:12, September 22, 2012 (UTC)

Firstly, Hashirama wasn't trapped in that barrier (that i'm sure he could break out of if he wanted to, but that would be in favor of his opponent) ti'l after he was reincarnated. Madara According to his own claims, had Hashirama's powers before his death, before Kabuto altered him. Kabuto just enhanced his power even further. Secondly, Tobirama lived ti'l after Hashirama died, and it was actually shown in chapter 481 that he died by the Kinkaku Force, and that was when Hiruzen was named hokage. Also, neither Hashirama nor Tobirama could've been reincarnated by edo tensei if they were sealed by the shikifujin, Kabuto specificaly stated that if the persons soul resides anywhere other that the after life, for instance lets say the death god, in fact he even said that they couldnt be reincarnated by edo tensei if they were in shikifujin. You really need to pay attention to the time line and pay attention to what is said, cause Hashirama and Tobirama were only reincarnated by the edo tensei in part one and that was the only actually current appearence in the show, aside from flashbacks.98.26.240.62 (talk) 04:35, September 22, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan