Talk:Nature Transformation

Nature Manipulation-

There is certain, mistake in this article. The article states that shinobi have only one nature affinity and additional elements are just learned by time. That’s not right, if elements can simply be learned, then idea of elemental affinities looses sense. As far as I remember it was stated that, element can’t be learned with out affinity. I have some proof (not very solid but still): Good example is Yamato, to use wood, his chakra must have both water & earth. That disapproves the fact that chakra has only one elemental affinity. Also sharingan can’t copy technique to which don’t have capability such as: bloodline limit etc. Though powerful taijutsu skills can be copied, but with lesser power and strain on the body (as it was shown by Sasuke during his fight Yoroi), but elements were never copied. Also Kakashi noted that he has more than one element and it was also explained that the element can’t be used if the user doesn’t has the specific chakra nature, be it main or secondary.

''

Basically Yin-Yang & Sora are the same, but the Yin-Yang was mentioned in different context (or so I think), the difference is that Yin-Yang is also philosophical symbol, it represents the holiness of opposites and as far as I remember it was not mentioned in genjutsu context and it has nothing to do with it (well that’s my opinion). Can the Yin-Yang thing be taken out of the “Pain” article it’s speculation not a confirmed fact.

Paths 15:58, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, you're the one making a mistake ^^ Let me explain.
 * A shinobi's affinity is the element their chakra naturally leans to. This affinity is revealed using the chakra paper. Every shinobi has only one affinity. Kakashi's affinity is lightning, Naruto's affinity is wind. This affinity gives them a head start in learning that element. Other elements can be learned, by with considerably more difficulty. Learning all five at a high level would be impossible.
 * A person with the Sharingan can copy elemental techniques, but cannot use them without knowing how to transform their chakra into that element.
 * We don't know if it works any differently for people with elemental Kekkei Genkai. It could be they have two affinities. It could be their affinity is for their Kekkei Genkai element. It could also be they simply have one affinity for a normal element like all other people. The concept of Yin-Yang and the element Void have little to nothing to do with each other.
 * Yin-Yang in Naruto is a different kind of nature transformation than elemental nature transformation. We don't know how it works, though, but it was heavily hinted that it had something to do with non-elemental techiques like Kagemane, Baika, Genjutsu, and medical ninjutsu.
 * It's definitely the sixth form of nature transformation Jiraiya spoke about, although it wasn't stated directly. It's the only form of nature transformation mentioned, besides the five elemental forms. --ShounenSuki 16:20, 29 November 2008 (UTC)


 * About the elements themselves. The Japanese element Void is equivalent to the Naruto element lightning. Both represent pure energy. Yin-Yang and

I should diagree. If elements can be learned than the affinity idea looses sense. And besides I a different discussin you had a different opinion similar to mine. Paths 16:34, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

P.S. read this article on japanese elements it's quite interesting


 * How does the idea of affinities loose sense? It was introduced to explain why Naruto was going to learn Wind.
 * Also, in what discussion did I have an opinion similar to yours? --ShounenSuki 16:48, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

''

Paths 16:56, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry, but where exactly am I expressing the same opinion as you in that discussion? --ShounenSuki 19:10, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

''

Also, lightning can't be pure energy. Pure energy means that it doesn't has any traits or quolities, And seriously please read wikipedias article on japanese elements, that is my sourse.Paths 05:35, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia's article on Japanese elements cannot be used as a source. While the ideas may be derived from that information there is no basis to say that every last fact will apply directly to nature transformations in naruto. They are two unrelated topics. Lightning as pure energy also has nothing to do with the Lightning affinity, they are two different topics as well. As it looks, you're just continuing one of the common debates caused by people screwing with the facts. this post makes a good explanation. Ignore the quote, the person who originally posted the thread completely ignored facts like the paper test when he created his post. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Nov 30, 2008 @ 06:30 (UTC)

No, I ment that, this is my source for speculation section. The elements can't be learned, I re-read the manga few times and I don't know there you got the idea from. In anime, Yamato explained to Naruto, that shinobi tend to use their main elements because, in some cases the secondary elements are weak, and that a person can't use an element if he/she doesn't has ah affinity (be it main or secondary)Paths 08:20, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * How did I voice the same opinion as you in that quote Paths? I said exactly what I said at the start of this discussion. A shinobi only has one affinity, but can learn to use multiple elements. I think you're misintepreting my words. --ShounenSuki 21:21, 30 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Speculation sections are NOT for you to voice your own speculations. And talkpages are not places to discuss speculations. A speculation section is only there to list notable speculation, ie: common, speculation. Any speculation derived from discussions on a talkpage is original, and therefore not common or notable. This discussion is actually getting rather pointlessly bloated, so I'm trimming it down. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) current discussion Nov 30, 2008 @ 23:23 (UTC)

I thought it over so I'll leave this comment, the difference is I'm saying that secondary elements are natural, but your opinion is that secondary elements are learned. But you specify that you mean learning, transforming the element. It does make sence though it's a little vague, can you verify that you mean learning how to transform chakra to element, it give a feeling that the of learning teqnique. But still adding Yin-Yang to Pain as an element is a speculation, can it be taken out? Thank you for the attention.Paths 12:28, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * All elements are learned. Having an affinity doesn't mean you can naturally use that element. You still need to train for it. An affinity only makes it easier to learn.
 * Also, the article says nothing about Yin-Yang being an element and it being a form of nature transformation is fact. It was literally stated in the manga. --ShounenSuki 12:34, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

I still think it another way, but that's not the point. I knPaths 13:43, 1 December 2008 (UTC)ow that it was just metioned in manga but look in the Pain & Sage of Six Paths articles it is literaly stated; "Sixth form of Nature Transformation, likely Yin-Yang" Paths 13:43, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
 * That's the way it is, isn't it? Jiraiya says Pain can all six forms of chakra nature manipulation (meaning there are only six, not more, not less). Six forms have been mentioned in the manga: the five elements and Yin-Yang. So it's all but literally stated that the sixth form of nature manipulation Pain can use is Yin-Yang. In my opinion, the "likely" can actually be removed, but since it hasn't been literally stated yet, it should stay in. --ShounenSuki 13:52, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Please categorize these jutsus
Dimensional (Kakashi's); Summoning (is this the same dimensional, or a different dimensional?)

RandomVisitor1

Kakashi's Mangekyo jutsu is the only one within that dimensional category, there's no point in categorizing a single jutsu, and it's not even a category. As for Summons, there is only one actual Summoning jutsu, I think we already categorize summons themselves. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) Dec 24, 2008 @ 04:29 (UTC)

Crystal
In the latest episode of the anime (ep 91), Kakashi recognized the Crystal jutsu as a earth jutsu. I would say Crystal works in the same way as Deidaras mud. Jacce 14:38, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

A crystal is a rock, so I could have told ya that. So this means that Crystal Release is a sub group of Earth Release then.--TheUltimate3 14:43, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


 * I scanned through the episode, but all I could find was Team Kurenai and Kakashi encountering Guren's Crystal Release: Crystal Pentagonal Prison and Kiba wondering if it was possibly an Earth Release technique. After that, Kakashi seemed to recognise the technique, but he didn't say it was Earth Release. The way he reacted made it seem far more unique than that. --ShounenSuki 16:03, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Crystal Release
"No two elements used simultaneously will create the Crystal Release ninjutsu because the crystals are summoned from the user's surroundings."

What does this mean? Has it been stated in the anime that Crystal Release isn't the combination of two basic elements? Because, if that's the case, it shouldn't be considered an advanced element. --ShounenSuki 22:19, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Kabuto said something like "Guren doesn't need to carry weapons to be dangerous, she can summon crystals from anywhere, that's the power of the Shoton that made her a candidate for Orochimaru-sama's vessel". Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:46, 2 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Wouldn't that be the same as saying the First Hokage could "summon trees from anywhere"? It doesn't imply she doesn't mix two basic elements into a new advanced element. --ShounenSuki 22:58, 2 February 2009 (UTC)