Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-26005711-20150512133037/@comment-26773508-20150729114612

Well let's forget Minato now. We don't know their feats properly, although Minato's NUMBER of feats surpass Tobirama's i.e. we have seen more jutsus from Minato than from Tobirama. We should get back to Hiruzen vs Tobirama now. And about that, I think the chief issue at hand is the extent to which Hiruzen's strength was retconned. There is almost universal consensus that Hashirama is the REAL God of Shinobi, thanks to Shippuden Plot no Jutsu. The only dissenter I've seen so far is probably QuakingStar, who still refers to Hiruzen with that title. IMO that title should be reserved only for Hashirama, due to both the hype and feats he's achieved. Hiruzen's case is the exact opposite. And Hagoromo wasn't technically a shinobi, as he taught Ninshu and not Ninjutsu. And imo the technical definition of shinobi in Narutoverse are those people who utilise chakra to perform various techniques, especially ninjutsu. So I suppose Hagoromo deserves another grand nickname. But either way, Hashirama>Hiruzen any day.

With that sorted out, the problem now seems to be who is stronger among Tobirama and Hiruzen. It could go either way. If we go by Part I hype and feats, the trophy should go to Hiruzen. However, Shippuden clearly states that the Senju were by far the strongest clan in the world. Kishi made the important point of showing that small children of all clans participated in interclan warfare during the Warring States period. And so we see Tobirama engaged in battles of life and death right since childhood. He managed to kill Izuna, who was said to be equal to MS Madara. Also, Tobirama clearly stole the spotlight from both Minato and Hiruzen during the 4th War. So we have the following points laid out by Kishi during Shippuden:

1) Hiruzen is no longer the strongest Hokage. Hashirama is (excluding Hagoromo asspull Naruto)

2) The Senju clan is the strongest clan in the world. Hashirama and Tobirama fought the Uchicha clan, who were close to Senju in strength, from their very childhood.

3) Tobirama was able to kill the 2nd strongest Uchiha, possibly equal in strength to the strongest Uchiha (MS Madara) at the time.

4) Tobirama's wartime feats far outshine Hiruzen's.

Considering these 4 key points (most importantly points 2 & 4) it seems to me that Kishi is hinting that Tobirama>Hiruzen. But that's just my opinion