Talk:Sage Mode

Slug Sage Mode?
Considering it's been confirmed that slugs (Katsuyu) come from the Shikkotsu Forest in the most recent chapter, and that is the only other place besides Mount Myoboku (Toads) and the Ryuchi Cave (Snakes) where you can learn Sage Mode. Logically, the third version of Sage Mode that Hashirama Senju used is probably Slug Sage Mode. But since it isn't confirmed, it cannot be added. But I think it's worthy of being put into the trivia. Thoughts anyone? 01:08, June 21, 2013 (UTC)

I think what your saying sounds logical but like you said it's unconfirmed.Although im not a 100% sure about putting it in a trivia without further proof.Whiteraven1 (talk) 01:17, June 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * See the discussion on Hashirama's talk page. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 01:47, June 21, 2013 (UTC)

Where do you get the "only place to learn Sage Mode" for all we know, someone can learn Sage Mode in their bed at home while watching TV.--Elveonora (talk) 11:31, June 21, 2013 (UTC) Because, Kabuto stated there are only 3 places to learn Sage Mode. From the toads at Mount Myoboku, the snakes in the Ryuchi Cave, and from the Shikkotsu Forest. Which has been recently confirmed to posses slugs. Considering Naruto learned Toad Sage Mode from toads at Mount Myoboku, Kabuto learned Snake Sage Mode from snakes at the Ryuchi Cave, and Hashirama Senju has a third version of sage mode that we've never seen. Logically, it is Slug Sage Mode. 14:13, June 21, 2013 (UTC) @Elveonora
 * Not true. Kabuto said he found the Ryūchi Cave which was equally as famous as Mount Myōboku and Shikkotsu Forest. Saying that those are the only places to learn Sage Mode is akin to saying that only Konoha-nin can learn Sage Mode then.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:34, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Absorving natural chakra as its secundary effects, almost impossible to be learned alone, because most of the people don't know that is even possible to absorve natural chakra and how to do it, it as to be teached or seen, and those three places being mentioned as the only places that someone could learn to absorve natural chakra i don't remember. Hashirama could easely observed how frogs do it, like Minato did with Rasengan inspiring into Tailed-Beast Bomb, and being Hashirama the most brilliant shinobi ever since Rikudou, he could developed his own Sage Mode. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 14:46, June 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's the point, there's no proof any animal taught him that. He could have managed to learn it by himself, theoretically--Elveonora (talk) 15:11, June 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah but besides if {a big if} Hashirama managed to create his own sage mode then what should his sage mode be called.Should it be called the Senju sage mode.Don't get me wrong im still debating about the whole Slug Sage Mode thing.But if it's later confirmed that this isn't slug sage mode then this is what it should be called.74.89.213.43 (talk) 16:36, June 21, 2013 (UTC)

I highly doubt ANYONE even him can simply learn on his own sage mode. That is a ridiculous assumption. I believe he was taught by somebody one way or another ItachiWasAHero (talk) 05:55, July 18, 2013 (UTC)
 * This is an easy one, couldn't resist. Logic says, that there has to be first of something every time. Who was the first Sage ever (any species) taught by? Bingo, someone had to come up with it, that alone confirms it's possible to be self-taught--Elveonora (talk) 17:09, July 18, 2013 (UTC)

Well, that is true. We will just have to wait and see what explanation is given for it if any. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 22:15, July 18, 2013 (UTC)

Reverting
Okay, there has been this small revert war happening where Hashirama's Sage Mode is being changed to Wood Sage Mode. Stop this now and explain why someone would want to change it to Wood Sage Mode. Joshbl56 12:33, July 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * There is no discussion here, someone is simply putting a fanon name in because they think it sounds better. The only person to use that particular Sage Mode was Hashirama and until Kishi decides an official name for it, we will continue to call it "Hashirama Senju's Sage Mode". --Speysider Talk Page 12:47, July 3, 2013 (UTC)


 * fanon name? Seriously? -.- Look at his Sage Art: Wood Release: True_Several Thousand Hands, and notice that unless he has Wood/Trees Sage Mode, there is no other explanation for this. Besides, calling it 'Hashirama Senju's Sage Mode' sounds pretty stupid. Next time, try to think before canceling an edit. 13:37, July 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Shima's technique is called Sage Art: Wind Release Dust Cloud, her Sage Mode isn't Wind Release because of that. All Sage Modes with a confirmed origin stem from summoned animals. There's absolutely no evidence that his Sage Mode stems from his Wood Release. I'd suggest you try taking your own advice. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:58, July 7, 2013 (UTC)

Gamakichi?
Seeing as he has been described as using a Senjutsu attack, should we list him as a user of Sage Mode? I mean, maybe we ought to wait for the better translations, but I think it's pretty clear there. --ScruffyC – Ash &#34;Scruffy&#34; Chancellor, the man who will become the world&#39;s greatest video game designer and change the world y&#39;know! (talk) 05:56, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * Actually, shouldn't only humans be listed as Sage Mode users? The Toad Sages use senjutsu without transforming and databook 3 only listed Jiraiya as a user of "Sage Mode", despite the toads being mentioned as users of senjutsu.--BeyondRed (talk) 22:04, August 7, 2013 (UTC)


 * I think, toads use senjutsu without transforming into sage mode. They are original user of senjutsu, they dont need to transform but humans transform to use senjutsu.--Salamancc (talk) 22:56, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * They do have to gather natural energy to use senjutsu though. The fact animals were not listed as users of Sage Mode does raise an important question. Has there been any reference in the manga of animals entering Sage Mode? Or do they only make senjutsu chakra and use senjutsu? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:40, August 7, 2013 (UTC)
 * One can't use senjutsu without sage mode tho. I don't think they are in an empowered state all the time. As stated, they also need to gather natural energy. And Fukasaku was strong enough to lift a giant boulder. With such strength, he would not have been killed by Pain, suggesting he was in normal mode when hit.--Elveonora (talk) 11:10, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * They need gather natural energy but they dont need to enter sage mode. Sage Mode is a technique which used by only humans.--Salamancc (talk) 18:44, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * Says who? Unless it's stated in canon, you just made it up. Gathering natural energy and balancing it EQUALS Sage Mode, there's no difference. The latter results as a consequence of the from former--Elveonora (talk) 18:55, August 8, 2013 (UTC)

Right back at you, Elve. Where was it stated in the manga that animals needed Sage Mode to preform techniques like that? Anywhere? I actually question why we add animals to Sage Mode myself. It seems that animals can more naturally use natural energy and sage techniques without needing the transformation their human counterparts require. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20:17, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict) What part exactly? We know the toads need to gather natural energy because we've seen them do it. The fact which appears to have sparked this discussion is that Shima and Fukasaku are not listed as Sage Mode users in the Third Databook, despite some of their techniques being listed as senjutsu. That would imply that Sage Mode is a state in which humans are able to use senjutsu, and that animals, while also capable of using senjutsu, are not considered users of Sage Mode. We have to fine comb through mentions of senjutsu. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:20, August 8, 2013 (UTC)


 * That's what I'm getting at. Completely agreed with Omni. Animals can do senjutsu without Sage Mode, which, makes the human users look more animal-like I might add. It'd be sort of... redundant? to make an animal go through a similar process. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 20:29, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't forget that there's the whole issue of Jūgo's clan's ability, and cursed seal being a mock senjutsu as well to murk up the subject a bit more. I'm half expecting Sasuke to be explained about some of it in coming chapters, only for us to learn that he can once again use his cursed seal over the flesh transplant he got from Jūgo way back when Taka was hunting Killer B, so he can have "senjutsu"/mock senjutsu that can damage Obito. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:38, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * Except humans are animals as well guys.--Elveonora (talk) 21:54, August 8, 2013 (UTC)

It seems like only animals that can be summoned (like the toads and snakes) are the ones that can use senjutsu naturally and also teach it since they can naturally absorb the natural energy. If it was all animals then I'm pretty sure the entire Inuzuka clan would be able to into sage mode since they are always with dogs. As for Jūgo, I thought it was mentioned that, while he can absorb natural chakra, he can't control it like the toads/snakes and that's why he goes on rampages? Joshbl56 22:19, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * Not everything is to be seen always through the scientific lens Elv. Josh, they did mention his clan couldn't control it, but the cursed seals Orochimaru made, some of its bearers could control it. See Sound Five, Sasuke. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:23, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * True that some could control it but it was shown that even Sasuke had trouble in the beginning (remember him trying to break Zaku's arms?). Going by the actual page, it mentions that Orochimaru created a method to actually help the body get accustom to the curse seal.  Joshbl56  22:33, August 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Omni, that's right, this is a fiction after all. But Kishi seems to have at least a basic grasp about biology and stuff. We weren't told humans have a creator in Narutoverse after all ;) and the whole Kekkei Genkai stuff is a strange twist on evolution. Anyway, I'm really sorry to ruin your little speculation guys, but "all animal techniques = senjutsu" is wrong, as Water Release: Gunshot wasn't listed as senjutsu. One who can absorb, balance and control/use natural energy is by default a Sage and since Shima and Fukasaku had to restore it, they aren't under enhancements all the time and as such, when they are, they enter Sage Mode. 3rd databook omitting them is strange, but it might as well be an overlook. It's called "sage mode" not "animal mode" and as far as I'm aware, their nickname is "great sage toads" and since they use senjutsu, it refers to that, not anything else.--Elveonora (talk) 13:09, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Where is the difficulty in realizing that frogs and other species mentioned as using natural energy don't enter into Sage Mode but only humans? But as @Elv said and @TTF both theories discussed here are not explicit anywhere. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 14:02, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

Again sucking natural energy and getting chakra upgraded to senjutsu chakra = sage mode. So they DO.--Elveonora (talk) 18:01, August 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * They don't have Sage Mode. At all. The databook left off the toads for a reason. They can't use Sage Mode. They can use Senjutsu. They can use natural energy. But they cannot use Sage Mode. There is a difference. Humans who mold natural energy with their spiritual and mental energies when they're forming chakra, enter Sage Mode. Or did you miss that entire arc? I'm with Omni on this one. I'm in favor of removing the toads, any any non-human animals for that matter, from the list of Sage Mode users. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:44, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Jesus, what is this coming to? What you propose is completely nonsensical. You are basically making stuff up to fit many years old databook not listing them. They are listed since forever, and no one has had a problem with it until now. Re-read the fu*king chapter where Fukasaku lifts a giant boulder, thanks to Sage Mode of course--Elveonora (talk) 21:48, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Read that. Not Sage Mode. He used natural energy, which, we've establish that while that may be a pre-requisite of Sage Mode, does not equate to using Sage Mode. Jūgo's clan and what not. Sorry, you still haven't shown me where any thing but a human has used Sage Mode. And if you can't use anything other than your personal bias and speculation to back it up, I don't see that happening soon. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 21:58, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Edit: I might add that the feat you were referring to, I'm guessing without re-reading it to actually see if it fit your point, Fukasaku was demonstrating the effects of Natural Energy. At that point, Naruto hadn't even begun training for Sage Mode yet. He was just explaining how Natural Energy works. So... there's that. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 22:03, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't anger me please. For the last time, they don't use just pure natural energy, but senjutsu chakra, which by default makes their bodies enter sage mode. Read this http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Fukasaku#Sage_Mode_-_Jutsu_List it appears to have been brought up at least once as I learned. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Shima and Fukasaku's techniques are listed in databook to be senjutsu, right? If they aren't then you have a point. Otherwise, you are grasping at straws to fit what you want. Basically what you are saying is that after eating food, they don't let out cra* but something else--Elveonora (talk) 22:07, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * This whole argument is amusing. All you use is your own speculation to fuel your debates. But, as with all fun things, they must come to an end. Fukasaku and Shima aren't listed as users of Sage Mode, nor is the Great Toad Sage, yet Jiraiya and Naruto are listed in the Databook. Also, um, Orochimaru uses this Senjutsu you're referring to; can't use Sage Mode. Apparently Jūgo's clan can use senjutsu chakra, can't use Sage Mode. You're at the end of your ropes here. Let's review, though, for good measure, and just so everyone else can see how stupid this is;
 * Sage Mode = The use of Natural energy in perfect tandum with mental energy and physical energy, during the formation of chakra, which results in the ability to use a heightend transformation called Sage Mode. This always results in at least some physical changes on its human users.
 * Frogs. No physical transformations.
 * Snakes that we've seen (Great White Snake Sage). No physical transformation.
 * No where in the databook are anything other than the human users listed as users of Sage Mode, despite the fact that the book came out AFTER Sage Mode was explained, so Kishi had every right to list them if he thought they used it.
 * Manga makes no mention of toads using Sage Mode anywhere, but rather, they seem apply senjutsu directly, since they don't need a transformation to preform it. And all mentions that have been brought up here are of toads using pure natural energy, which Elve has yet to rebut.
 * Orochimaru uses natural energy AND senjutsu chakra, can't use Sage Mode.
 * Jūgo's clan can use natural energy, can't use Sage Mode.
 * Plain and simple, they don't use Sage Mode. They should be removed. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 22:13, August 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * Don't confuse yourself please. Orochimaru clearly is a user of Sage Mode, what we were told is that he couldn't find a strong host body to hold it, never that he couldn't ever use it himself. In fact, go back and check him sucking out Senjutsu chakra from Kabuto again and cursed seals possessing his senjutsu chakra, both which wouldn't be possible had he not learned it
 * Apparently Jugo clan member's bodies absorb natural energy, they were never stated to be using senjutsu
 * Are you being silly now? Frogs already have frog eyes, so you want them to get an extra pair of frog eyes or more pronounced frog eyes? The mode isn't about physical change, but body being empowered by senjutsu chakra. By your logic Hashirama isn't a user of Sage Mode either because there are no tentacles coming out from his arse for your amusement--Elveonora (talk) 22:34, August 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * Maybe in your world, Elve, but Kabuto and Sasuke both said Orochimaru couldn't use Sage Mode, so he can't. We can go through the "what-ifs" all day, but the point is; he can't use it. So, until you can point me to somewhere in the manga that says toads or any other non-human uses Sage Mode, they don't use it. On the other hand, I can actually point you to things in the manga that prove my points. List above being proof. Facts have that funny feature to them. You can refute speculation all day, but when proven a list of facts, the only rebuttal you have are, and I quote, "By your logic Hashirama isn't a user of Sage Mode either because there are no tentacles coming out from his arse for your amusement." Oh, and just for good measure, the reason I know Hashirama has Sage Mode, is because his eyes gain Sage marks around them, and... uh... he calls his transformation Sage Mode. Unlike any toad I've seen thus far. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 22:44, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ignore evidence and the context for as long as you want, doesn't make it more valid. One can't have senjutsu chakra and not be in Sage Mode, that's a fact. And don't make me laugh, so: "I said so, therefore it's true" is a fact? The only "fact" is that 3rd databook doesn't list them as users. But for all I care, make them cursed princes--Elveonora (talk) 23:07, August 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * Very well, I think everyone else can see for themselves what the facts are. And I can see that you're stuck in your own realm of speculation so to continue this argument further would be pointless. Now then, I'll ask anyone else here if they have a voice, because the consensus, so far, is that non-humans don't have Sage Mode. Anyone else have any thoughts. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 23:09, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

I'll just throw my two cents in here too. This is how I see it. If we are calling Fukasaku and Shima users of Sage Mode, why can't we call Gamakichi one as well. What qualifications does Fukasaku and Shima have over Gamakichi? Both don't seem to enter a Sage Mode when they use Senjutsu, and they both can use Senjutsu chakra. The way I see it, either Gamakichi can be considered able to use Sage Mode, or Fukasaku and Shima can't necessarily be said to. Omega64 (talk) 23:12, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

Suggesting me to be autistic and speaking of me in 3rd person doesn't add up to your credibility. Let's say there's an equal amount of evidence for and against. Now, how about instead of a removal would we put up a notice there that it may be false? Again, Suki himself explained it. By the laws established in the scripture of Naruto, using Senjutsu chakra makes you enter Sage Mode. Not only there have been a few errors in the databooks, but not everything is in there. A removal would confuse many people. Good luck explaining it once someone comes asking why aren't they listed as users anymore since they were for half a decade or so. Well, the answer will be just because one guy called Ten Fox who appears once in a while decided as such--Elveonora (talk) 23:21, August 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * The only people I see asking anything, is why they're even listed to begin with. Care to explain that? Also, side note, I edit here more or less everyday. Check my contributions if you don't believe so. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 23:28, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

The way I see it, if the toad crew are listed as users of Sage Mode due to the ability to use senjutsu chakra, then Orochimaru should be listed as a user on the basis of that criteria alone. With that said, Elve's point would be correct. Add Orochimaru, otherwise, the toads should be removed. With that point, T.T. Fox would be correct in the sense that there was no transformation in them. Either way we go, we would have a standard to uphold. Simply put:
 * Keep the Toads as users = Add Oro to keep a balanced standard that users are those who simply use senjutsu chakra.
 * OR

What's my opinion on the matter? : I agree with Elve. Keep the Toads as users; add Orochimaru as a user. I mean, he was quoted "learning sage mode, but never being able to master it due to weakness of his body. Thus (as Kabuto stated) he was an imperfect sage." Plus he puts senjutsu chakra to use. KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 23:32, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Remove the toads due to the fact that they weren't officially confirmed to be user of Sage Mode anyway.
 * Kabuto and Sasuke noted that Orochimaru couldn't use Sage Mode. Elevenora stated that Orochimaru wasn't in a body that could use Sage Mode, yet we've come to learn that his cursed seals use Senjutsu and he can use senjutsu chakra, yet cannot use Sage Mode in his body. Seeking someone out to learn Sage Mode and actually using Sage Mode aren't the same things. So that blows Elve's theory right out of the water. Also don't know where I suggested he was autistic, so that's just wow, incredible. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 23:35, August 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Interpret it anyway you want. Kabuto states that Orochimaru couldn't find the right body and that Orochimaru couldn't become a perfect sage. That's a fact. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 23:39, August 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * And now I'll thank you for proving my point. You realize what you're suggesting right? Orochimaru isn't in a body, nor never was in one that could use Sage Mode, and you're trying to suggest to me that that means he can use Sage Mode. But why use logic? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 23:42, August 9, 2013 (UTC)