Talk:Ten-Tails/Archive 4

Kaguya's Will
The Shinju itself was never malevolent, but it was Kaguya's will that was there the entire time since the Ten-Tails was revived. The Shinju only took chakra when Obito summoned it due to her will. The voice in the Shinju speaking to Madara was Kaguya's. When the Ten-Tails saw Hagoromo when seeing the tailed beasts chakra in Naruto, it was Kaguya who got mad and made the Ten-Tails bulk up (Cause she hates her sons). When Hagoromo sealed the Ten-Tails in the moon, he ended up sealing Kaguya's will as well (Meaning her will was already there in the Zetsus when Madara reawakened them). Simply put, Kaguya's will was there as long as the Ten-Tails was. Also, since Kaguya was controlling the Ten-Tails the whole time, that means she was a jinchuuriki the whole time (Not a pseudo). Anyone disagree? WindStar7125 (talk) 07:51, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * ... what do you guys read? From both translations I understood that she is the Ten-Tails, so she can't be a jinchuuriki because she is a Tailed Beast.--Elveonora (talk) 13:26, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * It literally said Kaguya's will is what the Ten Tails acted on. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 16:19, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because Kaguya is the Ten-Tails...--Elveonora (talk) 17:17, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

Shinju and Ten-Tails
I think it's safe to conclude they're not one and the same. With the new chapter and that they were separate at one point with the Ten-Tails inside Madara and the Shinju still where Obito planted it.Cloudtheavenger (talk) 08:11, June 18, 2014 (UTC) Didn't the latest chapter confirmed that Juubi is what became of Kaguya when she ate the Fruit and not the Shinju itself? Maybe the new-born Juubi absorbed Shinju as well, but it doesn't make them the same being.Faust-RSI (talk) 07:40, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

The Jubi is a manifestation of her will to take back the chakra that her sons held.Cloudtheavenger (talk) 08:38, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * the only change in the story is the reason the Shinju went out and started murdering things. The Ten-Tails and the tree being the same did't. especially since we watch the Ten-Tails become the tree.-TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 08:45, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * facepalm* Except it never become the tree, Shinju and Juubi existed separately since Obito spawned the tree and the beast was still inside him. Faust-RSI (talk) 08:49, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * What Faust said. Read the newest chapter.Cloudtheavenger (talk) 08:50, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * 'Read the newest chapter.' Well this started swimmingly. And that tree, was stated to an extension of his body after so. Why didn't it disappear? It's a giant broken tree with an eye. I don't pretend to understand that kind of chakra bs. But until stated otherwise, as I stated, the only thing that has changed is the why the Ten-Tails appeared, not that at the very base, it was originally a tree.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 09:10, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Also, because I'm a spiteful bastard. Unless it actually says something different, the chapter directly states that the Ten-Tails wasn't just the Shinju, but also Kaguya's pissed off will. Meaning yeah, it was a tree.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 09:18, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

@Uli, I understood it as that the Ten-Tails is a literal merger of the Shinju and Kaguya, not that just her will made it transform--Elveonora (talk) 13:27, June 18, 2014 (UTC)


 * Same thing in the end. Be it Kaguya merged with the Shinju to turn it into the Ten-Tails or just threw her will at it, the tree got up, grew a mouth, and started eating things. Though if she was totally the Ten-Tails, I doubt she would require a resurrection, but then again chakra is screwy.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:38, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, both panda and stream say they merged, we may need a raw for that. If true, then it definitely isn't the same thing, because that makes her a Tailed Beast--Elveonora (talk) 13:54, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * You're gonna spark a lot of fanfictions if we confirm one of the tailed beasts has a human, female form. On topic, I'd have to agree though. The way it was talked about would lead many to believe that she is at least a part of the Ten-Tails. Atrix471 (talk) 14:12, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * BZ said they sealed her after all--Elveonora (talk) 14:13, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

I still call the Ten Tails as the Shinju, in fact some fans still do --Dayle14 (talk) 17:43, November 6, 2014 (UTC)

Created by Kaguya?
Am I missing something here? Why do several articles claim that Kaguya created the Shinju, using "materialised will" no less? This seems to stem from a misunderstanding. Black Zetsu said that along with the Shinju, Kaguya was part of the Ten-Tails, and that her will is the reason that it sought out chakra. In no way did he say that she created the Shinju itself. He didn't even say if she intentionally created (or became) the Ten-Tails.--BeyondRed (talk) 19:37, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not sure where do people get that from. What we were told is that Kaguya merged with the Shinju and became the Ten-Tails, yet for some reason people get things like Kaguya creating the Ten-Tails or something--Elveonora (talk) 19:49, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because as of now, there are two, slightly conflicting things said about this. One translation states that the Ten-Tails is the incarnation of her will (or some such) while another, while I'm not sure outwordly states they merged, refer to the Ten-Tails as Kaguya. Or some such.
 * So right now, I think a bunch of articles are fighting a battle over which is which.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 20:12, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * One translation states that Kaguya was part of the Ten-Tails and it carried her will, while the other actually states that her body became the Ten-Tails. Either way, neither claims she was involved in the creation of the Shinju, just its beast incarnation (Ten-Tails). If she actually created the Shinju itself, the entire story about the chakra fruit and such would be made completely invalid.--BeyondRed (talk) 20:20, June 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thats not at all true. The Shinju was originally the Tree that bore the chakra fruit that kaguya ate. Because kaguya had children, they too bore chakra. She wanted that chakra back and, through her godliness, created an incarnation of the Shinju Tree and herself to reclaim that chakra. The Sons sealed the Shinju inside of Hagoromo, unknowingly sealing their mother aswell. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 20:55, June 18, 2014 (UTC)

Proposal to Merge article with Kaguya's.
This is a proposal to merge the Shinju's article with Kaguya's. Any remarks? superlogan7437 (talk) 17:12, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes: Not gonna happen for at least the next five to ten chapters. We know waaaaaay too little about all that stuff. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:12, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Definitely not. While Kaguya seems to be much more related to its existence as the Ten-Tails, the Shinju existed by itself long before Kaguya came along. Same with Kaguya, who was her own entity before the eating the chakra fruit. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:55, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Bloody hell no.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:02, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * But once the raws are out/it is further clarified and gets confirmed that Ten-Tails = Shinju+Kaguya, still separate article or merged?--Elveonora (talk) 18:13, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Bloody hell no.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:15, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Italicized for emphasis.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:15, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Bloody nor hell are valid reasons.--Elveonora (talk) 18:18, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Patience is a virtue. WindStar7125  18:21, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hey, let's merge all character articles because they're all shinobi! • Seelentau 愛 議 18:57, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thank you.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:59, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * And while we're at it, we can merge all chakra natures together since, hey, its just chakra. And if you really want to get technical, the tailed beasts are all just portions of the Ten-Tails, so let's merge them too. (Ok, I've had my fun. Off to get coffee). ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 19:06, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Can you approach something seriously once in a while? If the manga says that she is the Ten-Tails, then we should reflect that rather than trying to find a biased reason not to--Elveonora (talk) 19:42, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * But she isn't the Ten-Tails. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:43, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * It would be wiser to wait. It sounds more logical to merge the Demonic Statue's and the Shinju's article than to merge Kaguya's and the Shinju's to me.--JOA20 (talk) 19:45, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Seel, have you read the raws yet?--Elveonora (talk) 19:50, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, there aren't even raws for last weeks chapter. But the translation say that the Ten-Tails was partially her, not the other way around. She is not the TT, the TT is her (partially). • Seelentau 愛 議 19:54, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * How is that any different?--Elveonora (talk) 20:00, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * If a cake is partially poison, then it's a cake with poison in it. If poison is partially a cake, it's poison partially made of cake. Here we had the Jubi with parts of it being Kaguya (apparently), not Kaguya with part of the TT in her. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:04, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Other than saying no to this proposal, did most of you need to approach this with ridicule and sarcastic statements? It really wasn't necessary and some of you are sysops, it's not setting an example to anyone wanting to edit here. --SuperSajuuk Talk Page 20:08, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * I believe, Elve-kun is used to this kind of tone and knows there are no hard feelings involved. :) • Seelentau 愛 議 20:15, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sysops though some of us may be, we are also regular users, who like to use sarcasm and snark to get some of our points across. Its the only way to liven up otherwise tense arguments. Hell, Elve and I get into it with our debates, but I still have no problems with the guy. He should know this by now. I hope... >.> ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 21:11, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

@Everyone, not in mood for formalities today, so just hugs. @Seel, so you admit that the TT is part Kaguya. How is that not a reason for TT and Kaguya articles merger?--Elveonora (talk) 21:34, June 19, 2014 (UTC)


 * Because all the tailed beasts are part Ten-Tails and we all know that ain't happening.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 21:40, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, only their chakra is. Otherwise they are separate characters. Saying the Tailed Beasts are Ten-Tails is like saying Naruto is Ashura--Elveonora (talk) 21:53, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * The main reason for not merging those articles is: Both hold high significance in the plot on their own. It's like with Black and White Zetsu. What they did as stand-alone characters weighs more than what they did as merged characters. Also, what I said at the beginning: We know way too little about all that stuff. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:57, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Look, because I sense a long, long, debate about what should be obvious (we leave the articles separate), can we all just buy each other drinks and call it a day? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 22:04, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

As stated before and now clarified, the Shinju has no consciousness, it's just a magical tree. The mind of the Ten-Tails has been Kaguya, so keeping them separate is like stating she didn't exist until recently, while it was her the whole time. It was her getting angry at Naruto, it was her tearing apart Obito, it was her talking to Madara etc.--Elveonora (talk) 22:19, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * That was only part of her. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 22:22, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * The Shinju and Kaguya obviously aren't being merged, so exactly is being proposed here? Merging the parts about the Ten-Tails with Kaguya? Splitting the Ten-Tails into its own article?--BeyondRed (talk) 22:24, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, the Shinju is separate from Kaguya, but the Ten-Tails IS Kaguya. This article may need some serious reconstructing though--Elveonora (talk) 22:30, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then splitting Shinju Tree n Ten.Ts. yes. Merging Kaguya 'nd Ten.Ts. No. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 22:36, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Keeping Kaguya and Ten-Tails separate simply is completely illogical. That is like if we had Orochimaru in each of his host bodies as separate characters, chronicling his actions distinctively from each.--Elveonora (talk) 22:41, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

Until the raw elucidates this matter more, no merger or split should take place. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:05, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * What is even more illogical is trying to stuff the exploits of giant tree, giant tree monster, and three-eyed pyschowoman into one article. Based as of now on flimsy translations. (Because I state for the third time today, only one translation I have read said that the Ten-Tails was "all her" as you seem to believe. The other stated that the Ten-Tails was "part her".) Add to that, as per the bullcrap that is the Zetsu articles, they have done enough to not be merged together. Merging this with Kaguya is unnecessary and stupid. Splitting it into three articles is even more so. What we have now works. Doesn't beat the readers over the head with convoluted nonsense, and is much much easier to manage for the editors.
 * That said, Omnibender is right. Until the raws come out, this conversation is over.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 23:07, June 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * And I patiently am waiting for the raws. I'm just arguing in advance. Convoluted to readers should be of no concern to us, rather what is true. If Kishi tells us that she is X and Y and so, we just have to document it--Elveonora (talk) 23:24, June 19, 2014 (UTC)

OMG, just one post and suddenly everyone in this wiki flips out.superlogan7437 (talk) 02:31, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

So now that the viz is out, may we finally split the "ten-tails" parts from the Shinju article and merge them with Kaguya's? Also at this point there's really no reason to have ten-tails and gedo mazo separated. "gedo mazo" is simply a nickname made by Madara given to the crippled form of beast Kaguya.--Elveonora (talk) 21:53, June 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wrong. Hagoromo and Black Zetsu, both whom pre-date Madara, also called it the Mazo. Also against the merge. To save headaches, that is all I will say, my reasons are above. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 21:57, June 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * edit conflict And yet Black Zetsu, who predates Madara, also calls it by that name. You still don't get why merging them is like merging all the tailed beasts, so I've given up trying to explain it, and will give you a flat no. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:58, June 23, 2014 (UTC)

So what about splitting the Ten-Tails from the Shinju, since they are no longer just different forms of the same thing? At the very least we should call characters jinchuriki of the Ten-Tails, rather than Shinju, since the Shinju itself isn't a tailed beast.--BeyondRed (talk) 22:05, June 23, 2014 (UTC)

The Tailed Beasts each have a separate consciousness. They are parts of chakra given form and life and as such, they are individual characters. Their consciousness isn't that of the Ten-Tails' meaning the Tailed Beasts aren't the Ten-Tails, only their chakra is that of the Ten-Tails. I also told you that you are wrong and the Tailed Beasts are no more Ten-Tails than Naruto is Ashura.... To continue.. from what we've been told by the manga, according to Kurama, the Ten-Tails has no consciousness, something proven wrong a few times. Kurama obviously meant the Shinju as having no consciousness, since the last time I checked, trees don't have any. The any and only consciousness the Ten-Tails has shown has been Kaguya's, so even though the Ten-Tails is both the Shinju and Kaguya in body, it's only Kaguya in mind, therefore the Ten-Tails and Kaguya are single character--Elveonora (talk) 22:07, June 23, 2014 (UTC)

No offense to anyone in particular, but I'm of the view that people should leave out their reader's/fan's bias out of the wiki while doing their editor's duties. Some may not like the way the plot has turned out, but a refusal to document recent developments just because of distaste for them greatly lowers the individuals' credibility and doesn't help the wiki either. Someone may not like something being true, but pretending contrary just for the sake of one's own convenience won't change the fact that it is and equals ignorance and even self-deception/delusion. An object's existence is independent of a subject's awareness and perception of it. That means, if you can't stand the way things are, feel free to read a different fiction and go edit elsewhere. And yes, I'm just making myself the wise one again :P Ignore that, but the message I tried to convey is important. Don't allow subjective feelings influence your productivity--Elveonora (talk) 23:01, June 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * I still stay no to everything Elvenora is trying to propose, on the grounds of hell no.
 * On actual grounds with merit; no to the Demonic Statue because godsdamnit we've been over that shit.
 * No on the splitting of Ten-Tails and Shinju, on the grounds that an actual article of just the tree is meaningless if the Ten-Tails is simple "Shinju+Kaguya". We gain nothing adding a new article for the tree, especially since it would essentially just be "This is a tree." Not to mention the fact that left to it's own devices, the Ten-Tails progressed to and (kinda) back from the tree.
 * No to merging Kaguya and Shinju, on similar grounds as to why we've already not merged the Demonic Statue with the Shinju. The two, while mentally "the same" are still different. Kaguya being a horned woman with serious issues, and the Ten-Tails being a giant monster. Their characters (and I don't care to listen to your crap about them being a single character. Nobody but you are opening the manga and going "These are the exact same character") are uniquely different from one and other and thus, for clarity for our readers, they remain separated. And to save you the trouble, the reason why I say this for Kaguya and the Shinju and not the Shinju and the Ten-Tails is because, the Shinju is a giant tree that is literally just there until parts of Kaguya let it walk. At the end of the day, it is still a giant tree.
 * Now I expect this to get a lot stupider before it gets better, I have taken the liberties to protect the Shinju and its Infobox, to prevent any edit war that could spark.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 23:09, June 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'd like to get one thing out of the way, and its something I'm guilty of as well, but I'm flat tired of seeing it. Just because another person's view/opinion isn't yours, Elveonora, does not make it fanon, fanfiction, or their personal bias anymore than your own view is. You throw that around constantly, I suppose thinking that it makes your points more valid, but it doesn't. Believe it or not, you are not the only user around here who cares about how we present our information, as TheUltimate just clearly demonstrated with several of his reasoning. You will not continue to use that argument (that opposing viewpoints are fanfiction). Its debunked and over. Of course, I am also done doing the same, as it doesn't help the conversation in any way and, in fact, turns it into a dung-flinging contest. From now on stick to arguing your points. That said, like I said earlier, I have already expressed my views and TheUltimate and Omnibender have only reaffirmed my convictions. I am still against any merge or split. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 00:18, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

Hello everyone...haven't been here, trading slaps with you guys for awhile...this seems like an interesting discussion topic, on both a micro and macro point. So i'll toss my 2 cents for what they may still be worth at this point.

So for 1st point...no to merging Kaguya to the Shinju...information on that is too ambiguous ATM. Although for the early-mid future, with more info on the subject it would be a wise idea to perhaps open a debate forum (or re-open, i haven't been here in awhile, soo bear with my jet-lag), and go balls deep into this Gedo Mazo/Shinju/Kaguya connection, because regardless of ambiguity and different thoughts, the way they overlap is getting beyond silly. Second, if i may be so forward all of us (myself included) are not 100% imparcial as writers/editors (we aren't suppose to, we're a bunch of fans, writing on a fan encyclopedia, xD)...and that's reflected on the way we handled certain article pages (unoffical jutsu names, descriptions, etc). How many articles did we have to almost rework/clean up due to how our original idea of a piece of information turned up wrong? Third, to note it's not entirely our fault since Kishi's story is growing plot-holes and retcons left and right and we editors, as a result, are left as puppets at the whims of Kishi's chakra strings. Lastly, despite this i do believe that we'll have to clean up the Gedo/Shinju/Kaguya articles to a degree. So yeah, those are my 2 cents for what they are worth. Darksusanoo (talk) 04:33, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

Dear God no. We never merged the statue with the Shinju. I don't see why we would Kaguya.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 06:16, June 24, 2014 (UTC)

But aren't we simply supposed to document what we are being told? Half the latest chapter was pretty much "Kaguya is the Ten-Tails" and the other about Madara's past. From what I can gather, the reasons against split/merger are simply bias and laziness. Pretty much: "I don't like it, it confuses me to shit and it's also lots of work, so just pretend it's not true and do nothing" Also Ultimate3, I proposed split of Shinju and Ten-Tails + merger of Ten-Tails and Kaguya, not merger of Shinju and Kaguya, unless I misunderstood you. Because even tho you may not like it, the Ten-Tails has been Kaguya the whole time. The Ten-Tails is monster form of Kaguya, it's completely mental to have two articles for the same character's different forms. @Foxie, point taken, but the very reason for which I throw accusations around is because I do care and if I didn't, I wouldn't waste my time here arguing with people, even though I must admit that sometimes it amuses me doing so. @Cerez, I don't remember any merger of the Gedo Mazo and Shinju proposed, but Gedo Mazo with Ten-Tails and Kaguya.

Anyway, we all intend the best for this place deep down somewhere, it's just we disagree on "small" details, such as what the "best" is. But you know my opinion, in my ideal world; the Demonic Statue, Ten-Tails and Kaguya would be merged and the Shinju separate, because yes, it was just a magical tree of which power incarnated into a (power) hungry woman as she ate its fruit. That's pretty much all. It isn't even clear at this point if the tree originally had any eye and might not be true.--Elveonora (talk) 12:21, June 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * Check chapter 670, Hagoromo showed Naruto the original form of the Shinju along with the fruit before Kaguya ate it. It was a normal big tree with a fruit. The eye probably came from Kaguya's will. Also did she put her will in the tree or herself??? A tree then a monster with an eye then a tree with an eye.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 09:40, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * The way I get it is that after Kaguya ate the Shinju's fruit, it incarnated into her, meaning they became one--Elveonora (talk) 11:08, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

That's enough. Debate's over and the Admins have spoken. We leave it the way it is. superlogan7437 (talk) 04:43, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Says who? Also: "The sysop flag is not a status symbol. Sysop are simply other members of the community with some extra tools on the wiki"--Elveonora (talk) 11:48, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * I say so, simply because we don't know what happened to the tree after Kaguya ate its fruit. We only know that sometime after Hagoromo and Indra were born, Kaguya and the tree manifested as the Ten-Tails. But all three characters deserve each their own article, since they were known as three different characters for most of the time and have stuff attributed to each of them. Merging any of them would make things unnecessarily complicated. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:37, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * I never proposed deletion of the other articles, only Kaguya's actions and powers as the Ten-Tails being written in her article rather than in the Shinju's.--Elveonora (talk) 12:46, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * The actions of the Shinju (whatever they were) should stay in its article. Then, the actions of Kaguya should stay in here article and everything she and the Shinju did in form of the Ten-Tails should be written down in the TT' article. • Seelentau 愛 議 12:50, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * ... the reasons why I brought up this topic and consider Foxie, Ulti and so's logic to be retarded are:

Watch the language.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 13:03, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) problem number one: Shinju and Ten-Tails have one article, so it credits Kaguya's doings and powers to the tree
 * 2) problem number two: if we find out that she can transform at will back and forth from "human" to monster, dear sysops will document her farts as a monster in the Shinju's article, while her farts as a "human" in her article, this fucking makes so much sense, bravo guys--Elveonora (talk) 12:55, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Moving on, if she does have the ability to transform to the Ten-Tails and back, we'd document it in both articles, like we do whenever any of the jinchuriki transforms. Not hard.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:06, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * She isn't a jinchuuriki though--Elveonora (talk) 13:08, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * And that doesn't matter. If she's going from human-thing to tailed beast, then it follows the same thing the jinchuriki went through, and we documented just fine. It'll if one desires to make it so.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:11, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then why don't we document Orochimaru as a snake monster separately? Seriously, poor excuse, but I'm appreciating the effort--Elveonora (talk) 13:13, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Orochisnakemonsterbodyhorrormaru was never presented as a different character. Just the end result of half his life of experiments gone horribly wrong. The Ten-Tails was shown as a different character than Kaguya. You're welcome to keep trying but you already know how this is going to end.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:17, June 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * And that's why I feel bad for this place and you guys. But your decision. If you want things herpy derpy, I won't get in the way--Elveonora (talk) 13:20, June 30, 2014 (UTC)

Also @Seel, the Shinju isn't even a character, but more like a tool--Elveonora (talk) 13:31, June 30, 2014 (UTC)

Please do not feed the troll. superlogan7437 (talk) 00:25, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * Excuse me?--Elveonora (talk) 13:15, July 1, 2014 (UTC)

"Shinju's" singular eye? Or Ten-Tails'?
Considering this discussion, beginning from my comment, we know that the Shinju tree is what Hagoromo showed Naruto in chapter 670. It didn't have a singular Rinnegan, the Ten-Tails did. Therefore, I say that all articles that have the phrases "Shinju's eye/Rinnegan" or "Shinju's singular eye/Rinnegan" should be replaced with "Ten-Tails' eye/Rinnegan" and "Ten-Tails' singular eye/Rinnegan." (You know, like what you guys did replacing "Return of Madara Arc" with "Infinite Tsukuyomi Arc" or replacing "Nine-Tails" with "Kurama" in various articles). The Shinju didn't have an eye until Kaguya fused with it and became the Ten-Tails. Saying the Shinju has a Rinnegan is inaccurate, I mean, LOOK at the Infobox for the Shinju's original tree form. No eye. Ten-Tails has the Rinnegan, Shinju doesn't. And by the way, don't come at me with "What about the tree during the war? It had a Rinnegan." Whatever that thing was that Obito summoned, it co-existed with the real Ten-Tails that Madara revived and sealed within himself. I'll reiterate my stance: The Shinju didn't have (or at least, wasn't shown with) the Rinnegan until Kaguya fused with it and became the Ten-Tails. Anyone (Namely @Ten Tailed Fox, @Elveonora, @TheUltimate3 -- for they were in that discussion and agreed with me on the Shinju image -- and other sysops and rollbacks, etc.) disagree? WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 02:35, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * I don't on the sole fact that the Shinju did get the eye eventually. The version that Obito summoned had the eye, after all. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 03:41, July 1, 2014 (UTC)

True, and saying the Ten-Tails has the eye rather than the Shinju is not only more accurate, but more consistent, given that we know the Shinju's original form eventually gained the Rinnegan by fusing with Kaguya and becoming the Ten-Tails. The original Shinju in the infobox didn't have the Rinnegan, but the Ten-Tails always did, so Ten-Tails is the better option. WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 02:35, July 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * No objections on my side--Elveonora (talk) 11:11, July 1, 2014 (UTC)

Cool. WindStar7125  (Talk) (Contributions) 02:35, July 2, 2014 (UTC)

Slideshow
Question, why are we using an in-game render for the Juubi's second form in the slideshow instead of using a picture of it from the anime? The in-game render looks kinda poor imo and seems relatively small. Is there a reason this was done? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 17:14, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because one was available. We only use manga images if anime or game renders are not currently available. When the anime depicts the Shinju's second form, it will likely be used. --SuperSajuuk Talk Page 17:17, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * I thought it already did?--Elveonora (talk) 17:21, July 1, 2014 (UTC)

It did two episodes ago, which is why I don't understand why it isn't in the slideshow. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 17:23, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * I also wondered this. I have a superb image of the Jubi's second form in the anime if we'd rather use that? ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 17:26, July 1, 2014 (UTC)

I think we should, it would make more sense and look much better. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 17:28, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * Likely because the article has full protection on it, so nobody could add it ? That, or someone didn't add it because the game render was alright. --SuperSajuuk Talk Page 17:52, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * Really funny, I uploaded the same image last month. It was added to the article back then (don't know why it was removed again) and can also be found on these two pages. Hence, the new one is a duplicate and needs to be removed. Norleon (talk) 18:11, July 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * Bump. Norleon (talk) 18:10, July 2, 2014 (UTC)

Are we going to raise that 'thing' from this weeks chapter?
The mess of the ten tails chakra that spewed out of Kaguya?



I'm not certain it's an official form for the Shinju itself but it's definitely it's chakra and possesses the eye of the shinju. I think it should be noted somewhere in the Shinju section.Hadrimon (talk) 12:09, August 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * Done but looks terrible.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:17, August 6, 2014 (UTC)

Fourth Form
I've noticed on the moment Kaguya changed into the unstabled chakra form of the Ten-Tails, take a look at the obvious features of the form, with the (facial) features of Tailed Beasts such as Saiken, Gyuki, Kurama, to which is a reminiscent to that of a Chimera --Pat141elite (talk) 12:12, August 7, 2014 (UTC)


 * Could be.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:13, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Chakra fruit
I'm curious, since I don't know much about fruits: What fruit (or so) does the chakra fruit resemble? I'd say it's a fig, hm? • Seelentau 愛 議 11:12, August 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it does look a bit like a fig.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg JOA20 11:51, August 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Does that have any mythological relevance?--Elveonora (talk) 12:29, August 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * Figs show up in a few places, all of which could have comparisons drawn to the Shinju and Kaguya depending on interpretations. In Greek Mythology a fig tree sat over a monster that was basically a giant whirlpool, and looked out over another monster who was a beautiful sea nymph transformed into a monster by poison. Odysseus survived the whirlpool by clinging to the fig tree's branches. Figs are also present in the mythical origins of some constellations.


 * In the Bible there are a few different stories about fig trees, most very similar in content. One has Jesus curse a fig tree to whither and die because it didn't have any fruit (over simplification but honestly, the full version doesn't make much sense to me). The story is supposedly a representation of a few things, including Jesus' power over nature. Figs have also been used to represent God's tree of knowledge. The final story basically uses the tree's budding leaves as a metaphor for the coming of "The Kingdom of God", which some believe refers to the apocalypse.


 * In Buddhism there's a legend that Buddah gained enlightenment while meditating under a sacred fig.


 * So as you can see, there are some parallels with what we're seeing in Naruto at the moment, but nothing concrete. I'd say the Greek legends are entirely irrelevant and the Biblical ones are pretty unlikely to be involved with Kishimoto's inspiration for the Shinju and its fruit.--Soul reaper (talk) 13:20, August 15, 2014 (UTC)

...I actually meant the looks of the fruit, not some kind of background. Needed it for a description in the German wiki, nothing special... :D • Seelentau 愛 議 13:30, August 15, 2014 (UTC)
 * It's still good to know some mythology :P--Elveonora (talk) 13:51, August 15, 2014 (UTC)

so now that it's known
That Kaguya has Wood Release, is the whole "Obito channeled Wood Release" thing still valid?--Elveonora (talk) 09:09, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, because the TT wasn't Kaguya at that point, but a mindless beast. • Seelentau 愛 議 09:18, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Where did you get she was mindless?--Elveonora (talk) 09:22, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I don't think she was mindless. I'm pretty sure it was her that reacted to Hagoromo's likeness in Naruto when she (as the TT) sensed the tailed beasts within Naruto. Plus she is the will and mind of the TT. WindStar7125  WindStar7125 Task.svg (Talk) (Contributions) 09:30, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * From the behaviour of the TT. Even if she's its will, she doesn't necessarily have control over the TT. • Seelentau 愛 議 09:33, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Think of it this way. If she was in 100% control of the Ten-Tails at that time, why did she bother wasting her time trying to nuke Naruto when she could have just looked up, cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi herself and claimed victory?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 09:38, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

The Ten-Tails reacted to chakras of the Tailed Beasts and Rinnegan visage inside of Naruto and made a hand seal (hand seals are human invention I think, not of mindless beasts) Not to mention I'm more than positive it was Kaguya talking to Madara to absorb the tree, thus yes, the Ten-Tails is clearly conscious and of Kaguya's consciousness. And no idea about IF, but you could apply that reasoning pretty much to anything. "why didn't x villain kill y hero when he clearly had a chance?"--Elveonora (talk) 09:43, August 20, 2014 (UTC)


 * Note; I never said the Ten-Tails was a mindless beast. I said Kaguya was not in 100% control. The Ten-Tails trying to nuke Naruto was very much conscious. I don't think the Ten-Tails was like "Yo, my plans about to come true. Weeeee".--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 09:46, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hand seals are a human invention. Who controlled the TT at that time? Madara and Obito. Also, Kaguya was born before hand seals were invented. Why would she use them? • Seelentau 愛 議 09:50, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except Madara attributed the hand seal to the Ten-Tails focusing it chakra as a reaction for observing Naruto's chakras. And we don't know when hand seals were invented, they are used to mold and manipulate chakra and Kaguya has chakra, so logically she would use some?--Elveonora (talk) 09:56, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * He did? Hm.
 * Yes, and they were invented by the humans who got Hagoromo's chakra. Kaguya didn't need to create chakra, she got it from the fruit. • Seelentau 愛 議 10:11, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

0_o new chakra continuously has to be produced my merging physical and mental energies, hand seals help with that. They are also used to transform chakra while performing techniques--Elveonora (talk) 10:15, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * As I said, the humans were the first ones to merge those energies. I don't think Hagoromo or Kaguya ever used seals. • Seelentau 愛 議 10:19, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Weren't we shown Kaguya running out of chakra, having Black Zetsu mold more for her? So yes, even she has to merge physical and mental energies to produce more chakra, it's not like she has infinite after all--Elveonora (talk) 10:25, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * When? • Seelentau 愛 議 10:36, August 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Chapter 687, unless I misunderstood it--Elveonora (talk) 10:45, August 20, 2014 (UTC)

The Tree
Was that actually ever stated to be the Ten-Tails' final form, or was it something we just assumed because Gyuki said that the next transformation would be final? Well, what I'm getting at is that the tree was never a transformation of the Ten-Tails, because the Ten-Tails was still inside of Obito when he cast the tree.

What in my opinion is the Ten-Tails' final form though I'd say is the rabbit (without the TBs heads sticking out of course) that would make more sense to me--Elveonora (talk) 12:57, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * By the way, I'm sure I have mentioned this once, but when the tree talks to Madara, he uses Katakana only. Just like some black fellow we all know (no, not Obama). • Seelentau 愛 議 13:03, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * It wasn't the tree talking, but rather the Ten-Tails telling Madara to absorb the tree--Elveonora (talk) 13:05, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * And the TT is known for using Katakana? idontthinkso.jpg • Seelentau 愛 議 13:07, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * I have no idea what Baraka Flaka Flame has to do with this, but Gyuki said the the next form would be the last, then we saw the tree, which was the last. The Rabbit Horror Picture Show that Kaguya turned into is a form yes but to assume a theoretical rabbit form that we've yet to see is the true final form is speculation at best and assumptions at worse. Now how could the Ten-Tails be in two places at once? Chakra is a hell of a drug and it doesn't seem to care one way or the other on what makes sense or not.--TheUltimate3 Amegakure_Symbol.svg (talk) 13:08, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Seel, Kaguya does, doesn't she? A voice told Madara: "The time when all shall become one has come." That was clearly Kaguya. Unless there were 2 voices talking to Madara, clarify that please.
 * @Ulti, so we only assume it was the last. It was never called the Ten-Tails' final form. And I don't think the tree was the Ten-Tails. Why would the final form be immobile? Also it was never shown as a tree in the flashbacks--Elveonora (talk) 13:12, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because I already know where this is going, I'm gonna end my involvement with this.
 * Based on Madara's story, things went Tree => Monster. With the Tree being the original form, thus the final form with how these transformation type things usually happen. We assume Gyuki is correct because Gyuki is a character in the story, and thus far more knowledgeable than we are. So stripping away the logic you are attempting to use and only using exactly what the manga told us; the tree is the Ten-Tails final form. It was shown as a tree in flashbacks, when Madara told the story of the Ten-Tails, then again when Hagaromo told the story of his mother and the Ten-Tails. The end.--TheUltimate3 Amegakure_Symbol.svg (talk) 13:26, August 28, 2014 (UTC)


 * Elve, that was Madara himself speaking. The Katakana voice says ''Take me in. The Shinju... the Jūbi... take it all in...". • Seelentau 愛 議 13:27, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * You can see 2 blank eyes (Byakugan) and the 3rd eye when the sentence about "becoming one with all" is shown. Madara's goal was never to become one with everyone--Elveonora (talk) 13:33, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * And you can see Kaguya's face when Madara casted MT. So? • Seelentau 愛 議 13:43, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Well. A panel with Kaguya's eyes and line about everything becoming one was obviously her talking, not Madara talking to himself--Elveonora (talk) 13:51, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * But that's your opinion. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:52, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * And that is yours :)--Elveonora (talk) 14:13, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * The thing is, why would the style of speech change from Katakana to Hiragana and Kanji? • Seelentau 愛 議 14:18, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Spite.--TheUltimate3 Amegakure_Symbol.svg (talk) 14:18, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Back to the original topic. We saw Hagoromo and Hamura fighting Kaguya as a giant monster. We saw the silhouette of her as of a giant monster. Never in the past was she shown as a tree, so how is that the final form?--Elveonora (talk) 14:20, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Even Kaguya's chakra looks like a rabbit. In all flashbacks, in all silhouettes she was shown as a humanoid-monster. And in latest chapter we saw her recede to the Ten-Tails (but without Rinnegan) and then "Gedo Mazo" there was no "tree stage"--Elveonora (talk) 16:42, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * But Gyūki didn't know about Kaguya, so it obviously assumed that the Shinju was the final form of the Ten-Tails.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg JOA20 16:45, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, the Tailed Beasts didn't know about Kaguya. Even Kurama thought the Ten-Tails was Shinju which decided to get angry and grow limbs and other organs. Not to mention there's no way Gyuki would even know such a thing considering he wasn't around back then.--Elveonora (talk) 16:49, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Infobox Image
2 things. A-shouldnt the tab be called "Ten-Tails" instead of "Beast Form" the Ten-Tails is the proper name of the Kaguya+Shinju, afterall. B-The pic should really be the 2nd/3rd form (the one on his hind legs) not the fat one. its the original Jubi as in the one that H&H fought, the one that Kaguya became, and the the one that Kaguya morphed into before being sealed. its the true Jubi. the fat one was an incomplete form that only exists becuase Obito ressurected it with Kinkaku/Ginkaku/1 Tentacle instead of full Kurama/Gyuki, so it was a partial form that eventually matured to the real Juubi.--RexGodwin (talk) 21:24, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Short answer: Shinju and Ten-Tails shouldn't share an article to begin with--Elveonora (talk) 21:26, August 30, 2014 (UTC)


 * A) The words "Beast Form" and "Original Form" are simply used to denote the character in question. Both are right just as much as they can be replaced with "Kaguya", "Ten-Tails", "Shinju", whatever.
 * B) The image being the 1st form instead of the 2nd/3rd form was, as far as I can remember, because it was the "First Seen" version of the Ten-Tails, and honestly even in such images of the 2nd and 3rd form don't match 1:1, because it looks like the Ten-Tails can look however way it damn well wants. Basically, the image can be changed, but the reason why it is as it is is because the only thing really consistent with its form past Mound With Teeth form is the crooked mouth thing, everything else is inconsistent.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 22:01, August 30, 2014 (UTC)


 * There's always the option of having an image of each of its "forms" in the infobox... ~SnapperTo 22:11, August 30, 2014 (UTC)


 * That is an option. I personally am not a fan of it because it makes the infobox looks horribly cluttered and fuster clucky.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 22:14, August 30, 2014 (UTC)

and why dont we just use Shinju and Ten-Tails, they have specific names and it should be put as such. and well, aside from the deformed "2nd" form with a missing arm, not really, the third form thats muscular with two arms is pretty consistant. and like i said i think its pretty obvious the most true form of the Juubi.--RexGodwin (talk) 22:17, August 30, 2014 (UTC)


 * Having all the forms doesn't look so bad. And none of the forms resemble chickens so I don't understand where there's any clucking involved? ~SnapperTo 22:21, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Am I seriously the only one who cares that the article is wrong as is, because the Ten-Tails isn't Shinju?--Elveonora (talk) 22:25, August 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * @RexGodwin, that actually isn't a bad idea.
 * @SnapperTo (Switch the beginning letters in fuster cluck), and yes it doesn't look nearly as bad as I've seen in other wikis but it still doesn't look good either.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 23:01, August 30, 2014 (UTC)


 * How about this?--RexGodwin (talk) 23:23, August 30, 2014 (UTC)


 * @TU3: I still don't understand. Custer was a great American general during WWI and Fluck of Seagulls was indisputably the least talented band of the entire hair glam movement. Neither of these have anything to do with the Ten-Tails. Please stay on topic. ~SnapperTo 00:36, August 31, 2014 (UTC)

Final Form
The episode today where Obito becomes the Ten-Tails' Jinchuuriki and Killer Bee questions Gyuki if the result is the Ten-Tails' final form made me realize that we have never seen the Ten-Tails final form. I'm wondering, since the Ten-Tails is the fusion of the Shinju and Kaguya, if the rabbit creature we saw forming when Kaguya lost control of herself would have been the final form. If so, it would have been a big jump from tree-based to rabbit. I still wonder which form was the one we saw as a silhouette back from before the Ten-Tails made its appearance and Tobi was explaining about its existence. Diamonddeath (talk) 03:08, September 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * I brought up the rabbit being the final form earlier, but for some reason people believe the tree replica Obito summoned was the final form :-/--Elveonora (talk) 10:05, September 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Technically if you want to get anal, the rabbit blob monster we've seen isn't the final form because it was an imperfect horror formed because Naruto's demon chakra screwed with Kaguya's demon chakra, which Black Zetsu said wasn't stable. Obito's tree form alsoisn't the Ten-Tails final form because at this point anything that doesn't say "Ten-Tails is also Part Kaguya" can't really be considered anything to do with the Ten-Tails at all.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 10:44, September 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, the rabbit might have as well been the final form, just imagine it without the heads sticking out of its body. I mean, it makes more sense to progress from humanoid monster into rabbit monster than humanoid monster into a tree. Each form had some natural progression--Elveonora (talk) 11:02, September 19, 2014 (UTC)

Throwing in that Kurozetsu hinted at a possible humanoid TT-ification. • Seelentau 愛 議 13:00, September 19, 2014 (UTC)


 * Probably my last comment before i fade back into obscurity, how is that hinted? Wasn't Ten-Tails with eye on one side of face, ear on the other and mouth on the last humanoid enough to say "there is a humanoid TT form, because you're looking at it?"--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō.svg (talk) 13:06, September 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * He said something like "this TT-ification has no humanoid form" or so. • Seelentau 愛 議 11:09, September 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * What Obito summoned isn't necessarily the "final form." It is a recreated tree form in order to cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi. What Gyuki initially said was corrected by Hagoromo and the voice in the replica tree later on. But no, it isn't a final form, rather, another form of the Ten-Tails. When editing all those articles, I replaced "Shinju" with "Ten-Tails' tree form," "Tree form of the Ten-Tails," or "Recreated tree form." I never labeled that as the "final form." -- WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 12:09, September 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, Gyuki made it sound like there is a thing such as final form and said in relevance to Obito's jinch form that its appearance is because the Ten-Tails was absorbed in its incomplete form. Yet, Madara absorbed it in the very exact same form as Obito did and his resulting transformation was vastly different from Obito's, so shrugs. Most likely the Tailed Beasts haven't got the slightest clue what they are talking about :P--Elveonora (talk) 12:11, September 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Most likely. Even they didn't know the Ten-Tails was the fusion of Kaguya and the original Shinju Hagoromo showed Naruto. -- WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task.svg WindStar7125's Task.svg 12:17, September 20, 2014 (UTC)

2 Ten tails?
After Naruto cuts the Ten tails tree form in half and Madara absorbs the trunk of the tree, what does that classify the tree's stump? Its not just the stump that's left, there's its roots that attacked the Allied shinobi forces. That demonstrated that there is chakra throughout the entire tree and not just its trunk. So is there 2 Ten tails now, 1 being sealed away in Kaguya's dimension and another in the form of a tree? --Sarutobii2 (talk) 09:26, October 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Part of it still remains along with its roots, yes. We will see what is done with it--Elve Talk Page 11:44, October 18, 2014 (UTC)

Thoughts on the matter anyone? --Sarutobii2 (talk) 08:09, October 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * I think of these roots as a "Ten-Tails empowered Wood Release", sort of like Wood Release: Flowering Tree. The Ten-Tails has been sealed in Kaguya's main dimension, no doubt about it.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna.svg JOA20 08:11, October 23, 2014 (UTC)

Wood Dargons
In naruto chapter 650 there are wood dragons coming out of the shinju attacking the shinobi. I think either the shinju or obito should have this technique.--Shotcolla (talk) 00:08, November 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * There was a debate whether or not that it actually the wood dragon technique because of its different appearance to Madara's but that took place before Hashirama used the same technique on Madara whose dragons appeared completely different in the manga. --Sarutobii2 (talk) 12:13, November 28, 2014 (UTC)