User talk:Omnibender/Elemental recomposition table

Concerning Bakuton
It's possible before he took the Iawkagure Kinjutsu he was using Bakuton in a similar fashion to Gari and with the Kinjutsu was able to find a different style of use for Bakuton. It's very well possible that Bakton has the same weakness as the Earth element or has the same chakra color as Earth Element, if thats the case then Sasuke could have easliy mixed the two up. Its also possible that the clay are in fact Earth Natured in their creation and chakra composition but the explosions are triggered by Bakuton.Umishiru (talk) 03:21, December 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * I find it unlikely that an advanced nature can have a weakness just like a basic nature. It would be more complex I think. And we don't have any canon example for different natures having different colors. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 04:15, December 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * Which is my point, Sasuke could have got them mixed up, and why not? Kisame was able to beat a Lava user. It makes since that Water beats Lava unless the user follows up with a Earth release jutsu from the cooled lava. Look at Wood it could have fire as a weakness. Sometimes the best answers come from not over complicating it.Umishiru (talk) 06:25, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * My current belief is that Deidara's clay can explode because he uses the kinjutsu to put in Explosive Release chakra in it, but the actual animation of the clay is done through Earth Release. Elements having advantages or disadvantages isn't the only thing that defines which technique wins, chakra levels also influence it, and with Samehada, Kisame has a big advantage. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:14, January 1, 2011 (UTC)
 * Now, with Shōton, I'd say that Earth and Wind is only the left possibility. It can makes sense, because air can be crystallized. (Well, anything can be crystallized.) It has to be one or the other, if it really is canon. Earth and Lightning or Wind. Vik0z0z (talk) Kami da! 01:42, January 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * I think since 525 showed Dust is that plus fire, the top contestant for earth and wind is once again sand. If it took this long for things such as the revelation of the regenerative properties of Zabuza's sword and of Deidara's supposed kekkei genkai, him revealing that sand is wind and earth as most believed in the past suddenly seems likely. I'm practically waiting for Gaara to scream "Sand Release" when he fights the Impure World Kage. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:48, January 29, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'd laugh very hard if that happened. Vik0z0z (talk) Kami da! 02:34, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

Fire + Lightning
Another combination could be Plasma Release. Adding Lighting to Fire could heat it to the point it becomes ionized. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_(physics)Umishiru (talk) 03:23, December 31, 2010 (UTC)
 * You'll see that this is already listed as an alternative theory for Light Release in the proposed combinations table. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 04:15, December 31, 2010 (UTC)

Some Ideas.
Crystal + Yang = Mineral Allows the user access to other crystals besides the Corundum looking Crystal release.

Crystal + Yin = Diamond I noticed that Crystal Release looks like Corundum, its 9 on the hardness scale and Diamond is a step above that. Hard attacks and defenses and perhaps resistance to lightning release but is horrible when fighting fire release(Diamond burns up into granite) and worse at Lava(most diamonds are formed in lava but melt quickly if there isn't enough pressure to set off the heat). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corundum http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohs_scale_of_mineral_hardness

Swift + Yin = Time Speeds up to the point that time begins to bend around the object.Umishiru (talk) 06:53, January 1, 2011 (UTC)

I specifically avoided making Yin and Yang mixes with advanced natures. I think my epileptic tree has enough branches already. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:14, January 1, 2011 (UTC)

About Movie Natures
May I question your opinion on the validity of movie natures now? I mean, you removed Steel, but Swift and Dark still remain on the table. I know this may not be so important, but shouldn't Steel be somewhere if you're leaving Dark and Swift? I personally think removing all three of them (and maybe Crystal as well) entirely might be better, since although everyone knew that they could be valid, only Storm made it and the rest seem to be ignored with the release of Explosion and Scorch. Maybe replacements such as "Darkness Release (暗遁; Anton)" can be used? --GoDai (talk) 01:00, January 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * Steel is still in the second table, the stronger counterpart one. I considered putting Steel as an alternative to Land as Yang Earth, but for some reason I can't quite put my finger on, I decided against it. In a way, I want Chūkichi and the unknown Kumo ninja to just show up and complete the possible combinations. And then we'll still have to wonder about what Blaze really is. Out of mental exhaustion about coming up with those, sometimes I wonder if the Yin and Yang blends can really be separated into Yin+Element and Yang+Element. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:15, January 5, 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I can't decide either. I mean, the Yin and Yang combinations you arranged make a lot of sense, but if one thinks it over, Yin and Yang, as natures of chakra, are rather inherent to chakra itself (as mental and physical aspects), making it likely that Yin Release and Yang Release are "Nature Transformations" that simply magnify already-exisiting natures of chakra, instead of adding a nature like temperature or vibration. Combining one of the Five Basic Natures with the Yin and Yang natures has a different feeling compared to the usual Ice or Lava, but no theory for Blaze really makes sense as much as "Blaze=Fire+Yin." All we really have is something between what we saw Sasuke do and how C describes it. --GoDai (talk) 01:32, January 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * I still damn the day we first saw Blaze Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:05, January 5, 2011 (UTC)

Alternate for Wind + Lightning
What about Friction? Nature would increase or decrease the traction of an object, decreasing or increasing its speed/movement.


 * Dry friction resists relative lateral motion of two solid surfaces in contact. Dry friction is subdivided into static friction between non-moving surfaces, and kinetic friction between moving surfaces.


 * Fluid friction describes the friction between layers within a viscous fluid that are moving relative to each other.


 * Lubricated friction is a case of fluid friction where a fluid separates two solid surfaces.


 * Skin friction is a component of drag, the force resisting the motion of a solid body through a fluid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction Umishiru (talk) 00:22, January 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Internal friction is the force resisting motion between the elements making up a solid material while it undergoes deformation.

That feels too close to Swift, which in itself wasn't a very good nature the movie writers came up with. If Explosion turns out to be Fire and Lightning, I think I can twist the Light one enough to fit the Lightning/Wind combo. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:39, January 16, 2011 (UTC) Eh, your right, too similar to Swift.Umishiru (talk) 00:48, January 16, 2011 (UTC)

Kekkei Tota
1) How do you feel with the revelation of 3 element combinations? Could it get messing like with Amaterasu?

2) Since Kurotsuchi is the Third Tsuchikage granddaughter and has 3 elements, could that mean that she could have a Kekkei Tota as well?

3) If so, considering how Kishi has been adding in non canon elements(in terms of character design) into the fold, could he be setting up for a canon debut of crystal release through her? IT makes since, Fire and Earth make Lava and is cooled by the water enough for crystals to grow. In fact most diamonds are formed under the earth but most melt do to the heat, sometimes the pressure and a volcanic eruptions saved them from a lava fate. IF thats the case, then the Earth element could be also providing the pressure.

4) I am happy come to think of it, perhaps Amaterasu is in fact a Kekkei Dota granted through the MS, after all, the MS and the EMS are upgraded versions of a preexisting bloodline limit.Umishiru (talk) 07:03, January 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * I would like to point out that the Second and Third Tsuchikage are probably the only people in the world with a Kekkei Tōta ability. Jinton is probably the only, although I guess Enton could be one as well, given its mysterious nature and obscurity. Also, judging by the name, it might involve far more than a mere genetic bloodline. Tōta refers to a natural selection of genes, implying some sort of eugenics programme or even genetic manipulation. —ShounenSuki (talk 08:04, January 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * 1) Not a big fan of the revelation, since it opens up loads of possible element combinations. I think Kishimoto tried too hard on this one. And I hope Amaterasu isn't one of those, since Yin Fire makes much more sense.
 * 2) ShounenSuki already answered that one for me.
 * 3) Who's to say those designs aren't canon? For all we know, Kishimoto could have given some designs to the movie, or maybe was encouraged by his publisher to offer more integration between the different media, such as manga and movie.
 * 4) See the first answer. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:31, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

Ok... Now you'll have a "little" problem with the table! --The ultimate fan of NARUTO--  welimer2 (talk) 16:57, January 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * Understatement of the year. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:04, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

Don't say that the year has just begun... and... you said it when I stated it long time ago! "If Kishimoto-sensei decides to introduce three element advanced natures, well, I'm going to have a hard time making a table for three elements, not to mention a grid with three entries." --The ultimate fan of NARUTO--  welimer2 (talk) 17:11, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

Just never thought it would actually go this far. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:31, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

LOL, you're right! --The ultimate fan of NARUTO--  welimer2 (talk) 17:34, January 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * It's only ten new possibilities, though, and considering Shikaku's reaction, it's highly unlikely we'll ever see another kekkei tōta. Seeing all possible ones will be practically impossible. —ShounenSuki (talk 22:01, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

True about seeing them based on Shikaku's reaction, not so sure about only ten, since Yin and Yang still have to be explained, and the shaping of Blaze Release screams Yin Release influence to me, so throwing in Yin and Yang, we're looking at 35 combinations. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:37, January 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * I personally try to ignore Yin and Yang... Including those makes practically anything possible >< —ShounenSuki (talk 22:56, January 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * Hope for the best, plan for the worst. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:01, January 27, 2011 (UTC)

I agree, Kishi i pushing it. I was hoping that if he did revealed anthing new it would be Yin/Yang + Whatever element. Oh well, with a potential 35 new elements,that table of yours will be big, infact I fear for the Nature Transformation page more. On a side note, the fact that Shikaku thought that only one ninj had a Kekkei Tota when infac there was two, leans me to think that those who learn it keep such info under lock an key. wouldn't be surprised in a bit if more Kekkei Tota users appear later on. I agree on the Blaze release being Fire + Yin but in the event that the MS is a Kekkei Tota granting eye(Ameterasu), I would say Fire + Lightning + Wind.Umishiru (talk) 05:18, January 28, 2011 (UTC)

On a side note, good job on the 3 element combination table.Umishiru (talk) 05:19, January 28, 2011 (UTC)

My problem with that combination being Blaze is that Sasuke never ever demonstrated Wind Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:47, January 28, 2011 (UTC)


 * Nah, I doubt there's much secrecy involved with kekkei tōta. Shikaku probably didn't know of the Second Tsuchikage because he died decades ago, probably long before Shikaku was even born. The concept of kekkei tōta seems to be well-known and everyone knows of the Third Tsuchikage's Jinton. —ShounenSuki (talk 15:51, January 28, 2011 (UTC)

Not counting yin and yang, if you took out all the doubles (earth & fire + wind, wind & fire + earth ect.) how many new natures would there be?--Red-kun (talk) 08:33, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

Ten. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:07, January 29, 2011 (UTC)


 * Just imagine if not only the basic natures and Yin and Yang could be combined, but also all the kekkei genkai natures. You'd end up with more than three thousand possible kekkei tōta ^^ —ShounenSuki (talk 16:13, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

I don't think Kishimoto is this crazy. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:33, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

Theories
Ok, leaving out Yin and Yang, because my head would combust, I have some ideas.
 * Wind, Lightning, and Fire would most definitely produce Plasma, if not a regular advanced element.
 * Wind, Water, and Fire... Maybe, vapor, which can change state, but remain at high temperatures.
 * Wind, Lightning, and Earth could produce crystal, or explosive air. Chemically unstable.
 * Fire, Lightning, and Water... Fire, with Storm Release-like properties.
 * Fire, Lightning, and Earth another viability for crystal, or metal, yes.
 * Water, Earth, and Wind, could make Mud, maybe, or Glacier? (But, that's too ice-y)
 * Water, Wind, and Lightning could make light, as ice is refractive, or maybe an Ion release, but different from Plasma.
 * Water, Earth, and Lightning, jokingly, I'd say magnetic rocks. Other than that, Vaporization? Or Annihilation?
 * Fire, Earth, and Water could be a Cool Release, that removes heat.

Oh, and as an easier Plasma Release name, use Star Release, or ("Seiton" 星遁). Vik0z0z (talk) Kami da! 02:27, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

At the moment, I have plasma as an alternate for Fire + Lightning. Never found a name for plasma, so it ended up as what you see there. You're not considering Yin and Yang, but in this case, I think taking Wind and putting Yang would fit more nicely. In theory, vapour is a nice idea, but we know beforehand that Han uses it, and it doesn't seem to be a nature. I'll still fit Crystal under two element combinations if I can. Basic Earth Release techniques already use mud. Agree on the glacier. I'm still hoping that Explosion is earth and lightning so Light can be lightning and fire. Cool Release reminds me of the Freezing Release and Cold Release in the "stronger counterpart" section. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:46, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, what about Metal Relese being Fire + Earth + Lightning? Fire gets rid of the impurities from earth and Lighting gives the metal its properties. Also an alternate theory for Magnetism could be Earth + Lighting + Wind, Earth and Lighting make metal and the spinning action from the wind could produce a magnetic field. Also I noticed you forgot to mention Jiga in your magnetic reasoning section. He seems to employ a similar style to the Third Kazekage.Umishiru (talk) 07:15, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

Metal, or even Steel with those is a decent theory. Not sure how wind fits into magnetism. I didn't list Jiga because his ability has to do with ingested iron. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:07, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

Considering how Kishi-sensei doesn't always use literal names, I was just throwing out an idea. I was kind of thinking, that the name "bloodline expansion", could just mean that it takes an advanced element, and "expand" on it, or give it new properties by combining it with a new element. That might, in a way, debunk "super" advanced elements, if you get what I am saying. I'm just mentioning those (Light, Plasma) just in case they don't work out. With two advanced element spots left, I think it's a good idea to play on the safe side. Cool Release, I was thinking something that could remove your chakra, as cooling things remove your heat energy. As for vapor, I guess the bubbles, yeah, but you never know what a Biju can do, really. Just think of all the weird things ninja could do, and then we found out natures were behind them, i.e. Yin-Yang. I'm just throwing out ideas. Now, thinking of In and Yō, I feel like we should think of them seperately, it seems like too much to handle together. But yeah, I get what your saying. Also, to help with the ideas, you might want to look at the advanced counterparts, like I mentioned, and think of what another element might do to it. And, in the case of Yin and Yang, think of adding Yin and Yang to the advanced element. So, let's see:
 * Yin, Wind, Fire: I guess, if you are adding form to hot air/fireballs, (Blaze is too controversial to add Wind to at the moment) I guess here, you could get Plasma, or even scorching hot liquid, more likely, I think.
 * Yin, Wind, Water: Super-dense ice, or a supersolid form of ice, with viscosity.
 * Yin, Wind, Lightning: Well, what could lightning do to sound? Maybe, it could be a sound that vibrates so much that it tears people apart. Wind and Darkness, I don't really see anything. I guess, a far stretch, singularities? (I might have other combos for this idea.) I actually Plasma as an idea here, as it is highly-ionized, hot gas. Though, Yang might fit for that.
 * Yin, Wind, Earth: Maybe, a really strong-structured crystal, like diamond. I'd say disintegration, but dust does that.
 * Yin, Fire, Lightning: Blaze, with an electric/magnetic charge, or even solar flares; Yin and Light would really be darkness, so I got nothing.
 * Yin, Fire, Earth: Liquid metal?
 * Yin, Fire, Water: Sublimation.
 * Yin, Lightning, Earth: I HATE LIGHTNING. TOO COMPLICATED.
 * Yin, Lightning, Water: Look above.
 * Yin, Earth, Water: Liquid crystal? (Lots of liquid here) Or Flora, or something like that.
 * Yang, Wind, Fire: Stormy, burning, wind. Like fiery tornadoes. Or, Radioactive Wind. (I really can't think of names right now, sorry.)
 * Yang, Wind, Water: Hurricane, or Tsunami.
 * Yang, Wind, Lightning: Singularities again. Thin of Wind and Lightning as Plasma (Because fire is a release of chemical energy), Yin changes form, you get black hole. Yang adds power, supernova, kaboom, black hole. Or something like, storm clouds. Or Positive lightning, which is far more devastating.
 * Yang, Wind, Earth: Desert? As in, extreme climate sand.
 * Yang, Fire, Lightning: Nuclear explosions. Definitely my favorite choice. :D Radiation + Lightning is just a dangerous combo, since Uranium and such have valence electrons, and are radioactive.
 * Yang, Fire, Earth: I guess, your Eruption Release would work here, too. Or Volcano/Eruptive Earth.
 * Yang, Fire, Water: Supercritical fluid, which is very. very hot, and lots of pressure.
 * Yang, Lightning, Earth: Here's comes Metal, finally.
 * Yang, Lightning, Water: Well, since water has surface tension and a slightly negative charge, why not make it magnetic, too?
 * Yang, Earth, Water: Ocean, like covering land with water. Or, Photosynthesis, to make chakra with sunlight. And you'd turn green, but if it works, why not?

Think of Yin-Yang + element, and it would make the stronger counterpart, if you think about it. Also, since we really don't know if Yin and Yang can be combined with other natures, I recommend thinking if these combos could work with the regular three element combos. I feel like the regular ones are more important than the Yin-Yang ones. Just my opinion. Oh, and I added some ideas to the top. Vik0z0z (talk) Kami da! 16:35, January 29, 2011 (UTC)

Sand Release
Now we know that the Dust Release is not formed of Earth and Wind. Could be considered the Sand Release as a possible combination? The Wind severely eroded Earth, producing Sand. -- Leodix (Talk 07:34, January 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * I mentioned somewhere in a relevant talk page that with the revelation of Dust Release's status, Sand is the top contestant for this combination again. I don't think it fits due to previously explained mechanics of Gaara needing the take/make sand, but I'll be surprised if he doesn't shout Sand Release in the upcoming Kage battle or later. If Kishimoto suddenly revealed that Zabuza's sword had an ability after 500 chapters, and that Deidara had a kekkei genkai after 200, I think he's capable of doing this. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:34, January 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * Considering all of the retcon Kishi-sensei is doing, It think it is safe to say that Amaterasu might be Blaze after all. Which, might open up new thoughts on the components, I guess. Vik0z0z (talk) Kami da! 16:17, January 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * Retconning is going against previously explained canon. Kishimoto-sensei has not yet done this (at least in any serious manner). so far, he's merely been expanding on previously unexplained things. Gaara's sand could turn out to be a kekkei genkai nature — the Yonbi had one too, after all — and if it does turn out this way, his upcoming confrontation with his father would be the perfect time to reveal it. After all, Gaara's father and predecessor is there, who should have intimate knowledge of Gaara's abilities. —ShounenSuki (talk 19:00, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

My Idea
I Think that Smoke Release can be Fire+Wind+Yin. Before that Scorch Release is show, Smoke Release could be an advanced nature that need fire and wind to be form. Yin is energy and smoke if formed by the combustion of energy. Hope you will understand (and that I didn't make any mistake when I explain my Idea)--Alexdesta (talk) 09:28, January 30, 2011 (UTC)
 * A fitting theory. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:34, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

Affinity Matters
I was looking into your rebunked theories and I came up with something (quite foolish because of the number of possibilities that it will bring but oh well...)

My theory is based on the assumption that in a two element combination the affinity has a bigger influence than the second nature.

Let's look at Haku's Ice Release. It's created by combining Water and Wind natures. We don't know which one is Haku's affinity and which one is his second nature, but since he has shown a Water Release jutsu before and none from Wind, let's assume that Haku's affinity is Water. Meaning: Water (affinity) + Wind = Ice. (Plus, ice is water in a solid state, so that's where the water's bigger influence comes from.)

If we invert the natures, a new possibility appears. Wind (affinity) + Water = ??? (Likely a Bubble Release that would apply to Utakata, where the wind would have more influence than water). It's just an hypothesis that would fix the problems for Steel, Smoke and other possible releases. Nawirama13 (talk) 20:21, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

That would cause so many problems, it isn't even funny. Just saying. Vik0z0z (talk) Kami da! 20:29, January 30, 2011 (UTC)


 * I don't think it works that way. I think that when someone has an elemental kekkei genkai (or kekkei tōta), there isn't an affinity, at least not the way it happens with people in general. For example, we know Kakashi's affinity is lightning, and that Naruto's affinity is wind. We also know that affinities are genetic, as most Uchiha have an affinity towards fire. When someone has a kekkei genkai, I think that the advanced nature itself and the basic elements are the affinities. Taking Haku as an example. He has the Ice Release kekkei genkai. He's naturally predisposed to use Wind and Water because he has the Ice. I think that's more logical. Otherwise, it would be quite a coincidence that people just happen to use the elements required for an advanced nature if they had other elements as their affinities. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:31, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

I know the problems it would bring, I said at the beginning that it was quite foolish. Poor Omni would have to spend even more time on rebuilding the table... Indeed it does make more sense both being affinities.Nawirama13 (talk) 20:49, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

Problem is that its simultaneous fusion so Wind + Water is the same as Water + Wind. The bubble jutsu could be just water release. Though to be honest, I could see it being Water + Earth + Wind, Water absorbs the materials in the earth, and wind blows bubbles from this solution.Umishiru (talk) 14:23, January 31, 2011 (UTC)

More ideas.
Water + Lightning + Wind = Weather/Climate/Monsoon Release. Explains itself.

As for the Magnetism being Earth + Lightning + Wind, I got that from the fact that planetary bodies have a metal core and produce their fields through their rotations, the Wind could be what rotates the metal giving it an magnetic field.

Also Earth + Wind or Earth + Water + Wind could be Erosion/Weathering release. Water and Wind are both forces that wear down rocks. This wearing down action, almost like a acid, jutsu of this nature could shrink the sizes of people and jutsu, or general wear down the bonds of chakra over time, making the jutsu launched at a Weathering release user, look as if it of fading as a it gets closer. Example could be user launches a Lava release jutsu and, using a Erosion release, the lava jutsu could suddenly break up into fire and Earth or just fades away or just turn back into chakra.

Wind + Fire + Lighting, could be another way to make Plasma release, with Wind bussing up Fire and being converted into plasma when hit or merged with Lighting or it could be a Ion Release. Or instead a Energy release.Umishiru (talk) 14:33, January 31, 2011 (UTC)

Water + Fire + Wind could be Temperature Release, Water for cooling, fire for heating and Wind to assist in the temperature shifts.Umishiru (talk) 16:30, January 31, 2011 (UTC)