Talk:Orochimaru

Barrier ninjutsu
It was mentioned by Kabuto in chapter 290 Orochimaru used a barrier jutsu to protect his former vessel. I think it ought to be noted in his Other Skills subsection. Evidence: no links --Reliops (talk) 18:53, May 1, 2013 (UTC)Reliops
 * Do not link to scanlations, those are technically illegal. Just indicate chapter and page. I'm looking at two different translations, but only one mentions it being a barrier ninjutsu. We'd need to take a look at the raw. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:01, May 1, 2013 (UTC)

If you were to go on mangahere, chapter 290 pg 6 says he used a barrier ninjutsu to protect his vessel.JaZZBaND (talk) 21:03, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * And like I said, reading another scanlation, they don't use the term barrier ninjutsu, hence I pointed out the need of checking a raw. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:10, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ok. From what I can tell, though, is that in the 3 scanlations I saw, in addition to the raw, all seem to point to him using a "technique". Whether it's a barrier ninjutsu, or not, it does need mentioning, IMO. So, whatever you come up with, I will agree to.JaZZBaND (talk) 21:18, May 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * The translation I read didn't say former vessel. They were seemingly discussing something related to Edo Tensei--Elveonora (talk) 11:58, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

substitute technique?
Perhaps some still remember my living corpse reincarnation topic and as you may know, it works by him swallowing a host and taking over by suppressing the host's soul and transferring his own into that individual's body, his own body then logically (soulless) dies. He wears a mask to appear like himself etc. but in case of Zetsu transfer, not only Oro's snake form looked differently, but the way he did it changed as well, entering the victim's mouth instead of swallowing, and physically merging and changing instead of just taking over with his soul. I believe I have come with a solution for this, that is what he first did was in fact White Snake Possession to enter the clone's body (I know it's ova only, this wouldn't be the first time when a technique or a concept appeared first in anime before canon) and then used Living Corpse Reincarnation the reason being for why he has changed into his original form is that through the zetsu clone body, he used Substitute Technique with his own chakra and changed into "himself" /solved?--Elveonora (talk) 17:01, May 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * I did some thinking on what exactly you mean, and I have to say that I agree. I admit, I was skeptical as to the differences between what he did to the Zetsu clone and Genryuumaru. Also, the same goes for what he was trying to do to Sasuke, during their brief battle. In addition, the way he took over the Zetsu clone body was, oddly, the EXACT SAME WAY as he did in that ova to Kajika; he took on Oro's eyes and voice, and ect ( before he took on his complete appearance/ before substitute technique ). As for the Substitute technique, I agree completely, as I was pondering the same thing! I used to be under the impression that he uses the Vanishing facial copy thing to replace his appearance. But after seeing that weird transformation, I noticed it was similar to Zetsu clones in the anime. I agree that, since we have a lot of evidence and it totally stands to reason he should have the the substitute technique, that we add the jutsu to his listing. I mean, we DID add wood release and the mention of sage mode, so why not the Substitute Technique? JaZZBaND (talk) 17:19, May 5, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you a lot, the only reason why I even bothered to bring this up is because it surprisingly even makes sense and is logical and doesn't contradict anything, I would like an opinion of more people this time and not my topic getting ignored or forgotten (again... T_T)--Elveonora (talk) 17:47, May 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * So what do we do now? JaZZBaND (talk) 18:27, May 5, 2013 (UTC)

I'm gonna kneel and pray for someone competent to actually give a damn in the least--Elveonora (talk) 18:32, May 5, 2013 (UTC)

Well, it is a logical way to explain the differences on how the body changed between Orochimaru taking over Zetsu and Orochimaru took over other hosts, but until that actually becomes an issue in-universe, I don't quite see the necessity of pointing that out. I'm just not sure on why we'd bump White Snake Possession up the canon ladder. The use of Zetsu's Substitute Technique should be enough to account for the morphing into Orochimaru, even if he entered the host differently. For the moment, I see this explanation as a back up: if this ever becomes a subject of scrutiny, we already have an answer for it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:43, May 5, 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for an acknowledgment ;) well, from my point of view, it's not a matter of issue rather accuracy of information provided/details etc. and this wouldn't be the first thing listed that wasn't spelled out word by word but rather concluded by materials already provided, thought and logic. You know to this day articles like Body Flame Technique and some others irk me, if it were on me alone, I would either drastically change, put up a "possibly false" notice or delete them. I'm sure not even 1% of fanbase gives a damn about this specific "issue" or rather case, but thankfully there are some that do, (I wonder who that may be...) but you do admit it contradicts everything we know about Living Corpse Reincarnation I guess so rather to assume it's a retcon or Orochimaru improved somehow on while being dead or simply Kishi decided to change it on a whim, this is what happened. Not to mention Orochimaru changing into... "Orochimaru" looks exactly the way Zetsu change into people and back. For the white snake possession, I find that one important as well as he couldn't just transform into white snake himself and swallow that clone since he was gonna die but had to do it through an alternative and that also fits the description.--Elveonora (talk) 18:55, May 5, 2013 (UTC)

when head hit a wall
I know no matter what I say, people are going to disagree despite evidence, but whatever. A wiki is being run by many editors and each of us wants to fight through our word as valid. So for another time, Orochimaru WASN'T sealed by Itachi's Totsuka Sword. Read again how Yamata no Jutsu works, he transforms HIMSELF into that giant snake, meaning any part of it is him I believe it's even in the databook, same goes for his white-snake form, those little snakes are his "arms" The snake that escaped wasn't a summoned one/a separate being with its own consciousness, it was part of his body just like the rest, thus him. Another misconception is that he separates and seals parts of his soul into Curse Mark carriers, he does only chakra, since there is a reason why this can't be true. The way how I comprehend it, is that as long as his chakra is hosted in a living vessel, his soul gets "stuck" to that being/individual and as such stays in the impure world, that's how I think it works. What I'm trying to say is that his consciousness and soul weren't in Anko since he bit her. The thing he has memories of his defeat prove this. To get back why "Voldemort-style" can't be true, it's simple. The Shinigami cutting his arms alone stripped him of power and rotted his arms. There were hundreds Curse Marks subjects, he would be a powerless corpse by now according to your version with his soul resembling, nothing... you could clearly see his soul to have been whole when Hiruzen was pulling it out. /rant end--Elveonora (talk) 12:16, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

Orochimaru was sealed into the sword, and that's what it does (in application), regardless of how. But given what Orochimaru says about Kabuto, Cursed Seals, etc, it seems "part" of him is infact stored, whether it be chakra or a piece of his soul a la Voldermort. Orochimaru is a tricky person and he defies the laws of the Narutoverse in many ways. I cannot remember the thing abotu memories atm as I just woke up, but I'll say something later when I've "had my coffee".--Taynio (talk) 13:30, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * What was sealed was most of his body, he obviously escaped, that being the snake. Not only as stated, the technique transforms him into a giant hydra, but also there wouldn't have been any reason to draw that snake at all if it weren't him. It even went to hide and watched from shadows till Itachi died, then right after his death, it (he) came out. The only thing stored in the Cursed Seals is his chakra, I already explained why the soul part is false, not only it was nowhere mentioned, it defies other factors, thus it's fanmade "fact" not to mention his memories.--Elveonora (talk) 13:53, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * You can argue semantics until the horn blows (what?) but the fact remains Orochimaru was sealed into the sword and effectively "killed". If that white snake was another part of Orochimaru and it got killed, in the end it died anyway. So regardless is regardless he was effectively dead.
 * Now the other issue is your issue with him coming back to life via Cursed Seal. I...don't get the issue. He, all of him, came out of the Cursed Seal, aware of himself and aware of up to date on current events. I'm not sure...what the problem is there.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:08, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * The problem is he wasn't sealed after all if a part stayed and got later burnt by Amaterasu, so it's not a fact. The issue is that the consensus is he separates his soul which simply was nowhere stated and can't be true because the only separated part of his soul were his "arms" which he got back recently. Also if it were true he separates himself into multiple potential "Orochimarus" then the one from Anko couldn't know Sasuke much at all--Elveonora (talk) 14:12, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see. Except he was sealed. Even if it was "part of him" it was sealed into the Sword. Even if the small snake did try and flee and survive, it got killed anyway. So regardless after the Itachi vs Sasuke battle Orochimaru was dead.
 * As for soul separation. Dafuq if that even makes since in universe. At the end of the day he was sealed, dead, whatever, and he got brought back via Cursed Seal, body, memories, and all. The fact Anko branded when she was young, and Orochimaru had memories of his actions including the Third chosing the Fourth as Hokage, his decision to leave the village, Naruto and Sasuke betraying and killing him the potential "Orochimarus" as you put it are up to date and basically Orochimaru as he was "at death".--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:26, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * That's why it's more than likely the "up-to-date" "Anko Orochimaru" is the very same so "sealed" (in fact killed by amaterasu) Orochimaru. The way it's interpreted now suggests that there could be an army of Orochimarus just by doing what Sasuke did on every Cursed Seal person. The same individual can't live twice. Edo Tensei makes it clear soul is required to revive someone, so chakra and DNA aren't enough, just look at Hashirama's Living Clone it's dead. Only by using Yin-Yang release could Madara "breathe" life into these Hash clones and make Zetsu.

The only time a soul separation was done is Death Reaper no jutsu arm incident thingy. Again, there were hundreds of Cursed Seal carriers, he obviously didn't cut his soul into many pieces, look only what arms have done to him. Hopefully it's clear. So not only we at wikia incorrectly state he was sealed, but that he is a cloned Voldemort--Elveonora (talk) 14:50, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * /sigh Except we didn't incorrectly state he was sealed. The sword seals those it hits. He was sealed, hell he even spoke as he got sucked into the sword. Hell technically he still is sealed. The article suggests that a potential army of Orochimaru's exist because with the information we have, that is exactly the case. If or not multiple Orochimaru's can be Evil Unsealing Method'd out of the Cursed Seals is possible, we may never know, but we do know two things: he was sealed/killed/whatever and Cursed Seals can revive him out of that state. We can argue semantics and different interpretations till the end of time if you prefer, but what we have is what we have. He died/sealed/blahblahblah and returned.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 15:08, May 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * Except that's how it happened, sweety. Sasuke revived Orochimaru, who was dead, by using the Cursed Seal (chakra, part of him), some technique, and a piece of his DNA via Kabuto (who was infected by Orochimaru's cells). The Cursed Seal is placed with Senjutsu chakra, which is poured into it. Despite being split from it, his consciousness remained in it, explicitly stated by Orochimaru when he says he "saw" everything from the Cursed Seal, and immediately after when he said how he did it. Dislike it all you desire, Elv, but that's exactly what happened. Given flashbacks, he could have done it with anyone that he placed a CS on/in. It's not about cutting his soul into pieces, because that's not how the Narutoverse works; it uses other things. And it's how it works in Naruto, and you just have to accept that. --Taynio (talk) 15:16, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * Hey there Orochimaru was sealed and destroyed but not he still lived on through his chakra (being present in others such as anko) now Orochimaru is a freak and has mastered 'many' Jutsu he must of developed the cursed seal for another reason being to live on through it and feed off the vessel, now he was sealed by Itachis' sword yes, that part of him was His body but Orochimaru has displayed that he can create many vessels of himself, how he Is present in the manga Justifies that he could of developed his chakra to turn Into a living being (Just like tailed beasts) and be freed and live on In another body thats what i think --94.8.255.122 (talk) 15:18, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * The person above Is me I Just wasn't logged In but remember Orochimaru Is clever and probvably would of created such a Jutsu that could turn his stored chakra Into a living being --ROOT 根 (talk) 15:20, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

@Yaynio, sweety? Since when are we a couple, news to me. I'm not saying otherwise, please, read properly what I wrote. You don't have to tell me already what I know about blah blah, I'm arguing about his apparent Totsuka Sealing and separation of soul into pieces which both are false. Another Orochimaru can't be removed while 1 already lives no matter what you believe. And yes, he developed the Cursed Seals for 3 main reasons (to make strong soldiers and possibly enslave them if they overuse it, to prepare potential hosts he could transfer to, to have himself revived in case he gets destroyed), I read the manga as you do and it was me who made the additional edits to the article once it has been revealed, so no need to act as a wise one. Apparently some walls around here are too dull to break. How can you still believe the Totsuka Sword sealed him while there's evidence you can read that makes it obviously false?--Elveonora (talk) 15:46, May 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * Lol, I didn't say it as if we were a couple, silly.I know what you're arguing about, Elv, I am not acting as a wise one, we've had this discussion before. But Orochimaru was sealed. Just because pieces of him may exist in un-revived form (and its important to remember Orochimaru himself says he was revived) doesn't mean he isn't dead. He was simply revived because of the leftover pieces -- that's how we can still believe it. It's really a simple and short concept: he was sealed, Sasuke used remaining pieces of him to resurrect him with a technique Orochimaru invented himself. (P.S. just incase you don't know, I'm the anon you talk to, I just decided to log in)--Taynio (talk) 16:07, May 21, 2013 (UTC)
 * He was revived through chakra --ROOT 根 (talk) 16:11, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

@Taynio, figured as much, why does it matter though if you are "Taynio" or 98.xx whatever, stranger one way or another, no offense. Again, a living snake escaped thus he wasn't sealed because the whole creature was him, that's like saying that amputating someone's legs kills the person because part of him/her was gotten rid of or even more ridiculously that each part of your body is its own separate person. Sorry for being an asshole now, but sometimes I have to to get a point across. So now hopefully that this has been clarified from now on, for the rest. Hashirama's Living Clone isn't conscious because it has no soul, meaning Orochimaru's soul must have been available for the thing that came out of Anko (created using his chakra and flesh) to be sentient and possess memory. People assumed because of this that he must be separating his soul, but not only no such thing is ever stated (thus an assumption) it defies other concepts of Narutoverse and logic, re-read the part about separating himself into hundreds of pieces would reduce him to nothingness, since not only his soul in Part I. appeared whole, but separating just arm made him almost powerless and to rot, but now I'm just repeating myself.--Elveonora (talk) 16:48, May 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * Similar to another topic we had, I think I may be done with this conversation because you are missing the points that even Orochimaru himself state. It's not open to argument or interpretation. And no, it isn't because you were an "asshole", because you weren't one, lol. But no point go across, either, because it's a silly point that defies what actually happened. And no, it doesn't matter if I am 98* or Taynio, but I just wanted to let you know, incase you felt I was being condescending as Taynio, and I'm not.--Taynio (talk) 16:59, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

There is some more evidence to suggest that what Elveonora is saying is true. With Kabuto, we saw that the white snakes are an extension of the user, not actual living things like summoned snakes. They have the same chakra as the one who created them, can be modified by the creator (size changing), and stop moving if their creator falls into genjutsu (Izanami), for example. Kabuto even seemed to split his body into snakes at one point. The snakes that came out of Orochimaru when he was sealed kept moving, implying his consciousness was still controlling them in some way. I actually proposed making a technique article for the white snakes that come out of the body before (in archive 3 of this page), since we know more than enough about them from Kabuto's usage and three different people have used them now (Orochimaru, Sasuke with Orochimaru absorbed, and Kabuto). Also, wasn't it Orochimaru's conciousness that was split into the cursed seals? It can't be his soul. He only has one soul and it's within the Orochimaru body that was revived by Sasuke right now, which is why his arms' souls went back into that body when they were freed from the Shinigami.--BeyondRed (talk) 20:30, May 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * Except what Elv and you state is completely contradictory to what Orochimaru himself says, as well as others, and there's not even a reason to bring souls into the conversation. You're also looking at it in extremely limited manners. The snake moving means his consciousness was controlling it? Or how about it was a snake that simply was moving. Not that I am saying it is, but you'd assume if it was something that special there'd come something later regarding it, consciousness or not. But I simply don't see why you all have such an issue with how it's been played out. Orochimaru is killed by Sasuke, yet he also lives on in every Cursed Seal mark (part of his immortality). He also was able to live on through his corpse, seemingly, given what happened to Kabuto and the implied resurrection if it completely took forever.


 * Was Orochimaru sealed? Yes. He lived on in Sasuke, came back, and then was sealed. A fragment, a la Voldermort, lived on in Anko, also where part of his consciousness was (as well as every other Cursed Seal mark). He was resurrected once against due to Sasuke. There's also no reason to suggest he'd be weaker because of splitting himself into CSs, simply because it's how Voldermort did it. This is how it happened, he died, resurrected, was sealed, was resurrected, and is alive again. You don't have to try and argue semantics, meanwhile arguing against what the characters themselves have stated outright or implied, and then forcing other universe's rules into the Narutoverse. He may have had a consciousness due to the Senjutsu and etc in CS, even the snake that got away, but that doesn't mean he was not sealed, now does it? Semantics are awful..... God. Orochimaru is unique and we should expect different things from him. Sasuke absorbed part of Orochimaru (gaining the abilities), yet Orochimaru was still slain. The whole regarding Orochimaru is supposed to be weird and confusing, that's the intent.--98.101.165.89 (talk) 21:10, May 21, 2013 (UTC)

@Beyond, finally someone with a brain matter in skull instead of foreign contents. Hydra body was Orochimaru (databook), snake kept moving thus it was him, how can people deny facts is unknown to me when even the author makes the intention super obvious by drawing damn panels with it. It's either ignorance, bias or they simply do not really care if something is true as long as is satisfying as is to them. The only confirmed thing that gets split among the hosts in the tattoos is his chakra. His soul was torn apart only once and by Hiruzen, now it's fully restored. The Voldemort stuff is nothing but speculation, yet it's passed on as facts, while facts are being ignored. What a sad world we live in. Maybe I care about Naruto too much, this isn't about me being right or wrong, it's about the information provided being either, while I'm quite certain it's the latter in this case. Lot of misinformation and misinterpretation among the fanbase is still believed to be true, like Konoha being 200 years old and other **** how can anyone even believe themselves that he would split his soul while he did all he could to get back his arms, it's intelligence defying. Not only he has all memories, but he is yet to reference his so apparent sealing by Itachi. That's because he got burnt by Amaterasu instead and then somehow appeared in Anko only afterwards, he wasn't always there. @98, what is contradictory? At least provide how anything that is discussed here conflicts with manga/databook facts, quite the opposite actually. Please read again what I'm repeating all along. Most of his body was sealed at that time, the snake that was left was him, otherwise there wouldn't be any reason for it to move and be drawn at all, the snakes on Orochimaru's body aren't alive, they are his arms and extra eyes and mouths. Again, don't bring Voldemort into this, no only NOWHERE such thing is mentioned, what I'm continuously saying is that it can't be true. Please, don't interpret things in your own way. And no, the cells taking over Kabuto would have created Orochimaru 2, kinda like Zetsu Clone, a separate character. Also nowhere it was said he lives on through every Curse Mark holder, that's again just an assumption made. He potentially does, not actually. Again, people assume just because he came out of Anko that he would come from everyone. Also don't confuse semantic with facts. I'm not forcing anything, quite opposite, the topic is about removal of misinformation and misinterpretation.--Elveonora (talk) 21:28, May 21, 2013 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I am done with this, as well. Not only do you continue to insult to such an amazing degree, you misinterpret direct statements by the characters, you make mountains out of molehille panels that have no bearing on the future ever since they appeared, which is the same thing you do in almost everything you discuss and think is "true" and everyone is a retard, by your definition, for somehow missing something that doesn't exist. Your post is riddled with inaccuracies, stuffing peoples' mouths with MANY, MANY words never said, and using weak, unrelated points to try and support an argument that shouldn't even exist because it contradicts the very manga you claim to "support". --Taynio (talk) 14:03, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * There is nothing I misinterpret, it's the other way around actually. No offense, but just because you can't comprehend it, doesn't make it false. List me those "inaccuracies, stuffing peoples' mouths with MANY, MANY words never said, and using weak, unrelated points to try and support and argument that shouldn't even exist because it contradicts the very manga you claim to support" at least try to defend yourself otherwise than by playing the victim card, feeling offended, I haven't called you a retard personally, did I? Point me to which part you disagree with. The snake? Already explained it. Not only panels aren't drawn for no apparent reason without any meaning because ink and space can be saved for as you say relevant matters, but the databook itself states he transforms into that eight-headed serpent so any part of it is him. But yada yada, I must be a masochist that I still bother.--Elveonora (talk) 14:26, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

Height and Weight
Why does it say that Orochimaru lost weight and height over the timeskip? Is this a typo or genuine information? (Himelover567 (talk) 07:00, May 22, 2013 (UTC))
 * It comes from the databooks. It might have something to do with him changing body between the second and the third databook. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 07:06, May 22, 2013 (UTC)
 * Because he switches bodies, isn't that obvious?--Elveonora (talk) 10:19, May 22, 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I never thought that Orochimaru's weight and height would change when he changed bodies. I assumed he modified himself so he could adjust those factors. (210.49.83.157 (talk) 07:31, May 24, 2013 (UTC))

Designing Jutsu
Orochimaru, throughout the series, has designed many jutsu. Namely the Underworld Turnover Technique, the Four Violet Flames Battle Encampment, and the Four Black Fog Battle Formation, respectively. If he designed these techniques, why don't we add him to his list? JaZZBaND (talk) 21:26, June 8, 2013 (UTC)
 * I don't recall that ever being said. Maybe the Underworld Turnover, but Four Violet Flames is a weak version of Four Red Suns, and that appears to be older than him, since Hashirama and Tobirama knew it. Don't recall anything on Four Black Fog either. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:02, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * The underworld turnover and the four black fog formation? Even if we exclude the others, both these jutsu were designed by Orochimaru. I'm glad you recognized the turnover technique, but as for the fog formation, it was created to house and speed up the curse mark. Since it was made to specifically increase the curse marks influence. I honestly think he should be listed as a user. JaZZBaND (talk) 01:02, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Just to play the devil's advocate here, did the episode imply in anyway that it was Orochimaru indeed who designed the jutsu? Because technically Kabuto was also highly involved in Orochimaru's experiments, it could be something Kabuto developed. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:05, June 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, indeed it did, my friend. I recall the Sound Four Saying that it was a "power that Lord Orochimaru had given them". JaZZBaND (talk) 01:34, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Couldn't that be just the cursed seals? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:36, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I watched the episode,Shippuden 305, again and I saw that Orochimaru gave them a power that would activate when reincarnated. Infact, he notes that the power was a result of the curse marks. So, by that, should we link the Underworld Turnover with the curse marks, instead of just Orochimaru? (by the way, how do I change the style of my username's signature?)JaZZBaND (talk) 03:21, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * If it's a direct consequence of their Cursed Seals, it should be added as the technique's parent technique and removed from Orochimaru's techniques. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:36, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yea, that's what I thought. In addition, ill add Orochimaru's contribution, instead of adding him as a user. JaZZBaND - Jake Walker (talk) 23:52, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Does the fact that the alliance already knew of Underworld Turnover not imply that it was a pre-existing technique though? I doubt they'd have intel on the intricacies of Orochimaru's Cursed Seals.--BeyondRed (talk) 23:53, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * They knew nothing of the jutsu. Are you sure? JaZZBaND - Jake Walker (talk) 23:54, June 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * The shinobi at headquarters knew that it trapped souls in a barrier and such, at least.--BeyondRed (talk) 01:45, June 11, 2013 (UTC)
 * The only thing they did was deduce the mechanics of the technique.JaZZBaND - Jake Walker (talk) 03:38, June 11, 2013 (UTC)