User talk:CombatIQmatters

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YM
As requested. My first piece of evidence against the YM.

Here is some proof that YM is not omni-directional and cannot reflect any attack. Ch392, pg 10, you can see one of the snakes from Orochimaru's eight branches technique bypassing the YM (Meaning the YM is not adapting to the snake's attack). It's bypassing the YM by going over the top. Anime further proves this, in episode 138 of part 2, multiple snakes bypassed YM and even constricted Itachi's Susanoo with the YM in tow. @Lone brought forth the canon policy on this wiki makes anime portrayal of canon fights..err..canon.

Ninja Of War (talk) 20:10, December 3, 2018 (UTC)

Okay, so, Exhibit A is Chapter 392 pg 10 Well I have a few points for that. 1) I think we have a different way of looking at the Yata Mirror's function. Sure it looks like the snake is going over the top, but does that really matter? The mirror's goal is to protect itachi and his susano'o. If the snake continued to push over, the mirror would continue to expand in my opinion. The manga panel is frozen in time, and the snakes were immediately decapitated after that. And that very same panel is concrete proof that the mirror adapts. The mirror is now suddenly taller than susano'o, because not only is the mirror touching the ground, it  it expanded in height to cover susano'o's face. Furthermore, the mirror is also clearly covering the side of susano'o. Even if we say the anime portayal is canon (which it shouldn't be because it directly contradicts what was shown in the manga), it's still clearly an outlier, and I can prove it in my next bullet points.

2) Exhibit B, Take a careful look at Chapter 393 pg 8. I'm looking at the Viz scans, both in color and in black and white, and you can clearly see the mirror expanded to cover the left side of Susano'o. Not only that it expanded to cover susano'os head, and is even reaching as far as to cover the back of susano'o, clear evidence that the mirror adapts.

3) Exhibit C. Take a careful look at Chapter 393 pg 5-6. The mirror clearly expands in height to counter an upward thrown paper bomb thrown at susano'o. On that same page, you can clearly see the SFX :whoosh, which means rapid movement through the air. That is concrete physical evidence that the mirror adapts, and the SFX proves that the mirror was decreasing in size back to normal. Undeniable evidence.

4) Finally, Exhibit D, Chapter 393 pg 9. The Yata mirror is not only covering the front, but has expanded to cover the WHOLE LEFT SIDE of Susano'o! You have to remember that the mirror doesn't have a physical form and can change any of it's properties. So going back to Exhibit A, Chapter 392 pg 10, One of the snakes was deflected backward. The other snake was deflected upward, and then there is a snake on the ground that was attempting to move around susano'o, but you clearly see yata expanding to cut off it's path. After that, we don't see what happens because the totsuka blade goes to work. So I don't think that discredits the mirror.CombatIQmatters (talk) 22:18, December 3, 2018 (UTC)

____A) Okay, you see when users talk to me about the YM and it's abilities I keep on coming back to this chapter 392 pg  10. Since in that instance the mirror failed to adapt to the snake going over the top. It is not frozen in time, there are motion lines drawn around the snakes, indicating they are in motion. Like in mathematics, for a series or sequence to be given a formula, it needs to hold for all instances. If there is one instance where the "formula" fails then it cannot be correct or proven. This is what is happening with the YM in this instance.

On your points B)-D), I would address them, however, my point A) already derails the YM adapting. How do you see the YM adapting when there are no motion-lines indicating expanding for the YM?

Ninja Of War (talk) 12:41, December 4, 2018 (UTC) Okay, I accept your challenge. I don't think I was clear about what I meant about the panel being frozen in time. Yes, the snakes have movement lines which indicates the snakes were moving. But as I meant to state in my previous post, you can still clearly see there are also plenty of movement lines along the backside edge of the mirror, i.e, the parts of the mirror on the rightmost side of the panel. Susano'os head is also completely covered. The manga panel is still only a snapshot in time. The movement lines on the mirror clearly show that if the snake continued to slide over the top, the mirror would have adapted using those extensions we see, and it could easily become a dome, and has practically almost become a 360 degree dome to adapt to attacks in some instances in points B-D. I wish there was an easy/legal way for me to upload an image with the movement lines I'm talking about highlighted, but you should be able to see them if you are looking at that panel carefully.CombatIQmatters (talk) 23:00, December 4, 2018 (UTC)

___Sorry for the hiatus. Unfortunately, the motion lines you indicated for the YM are resulting from the collision from the multiple snakes before hand. As is indicated by the snakes that were deflected backwards, and the anime portrayal, which I remind you is canon due to the wiki canon policy. Furthermore, the panel I mentioned shows the one of the snakes going over the top of the YM. The YM is not adapting before hand, and the motion-lines on it are backwards due to post-collision. If the YM adapted in line with the snake going over the top, I would accept your interpretation, however that does not happen. Ninja Of War (talk) 15:05, December 11, 2018 (UTC) @Ninja of War, No problem.

The shield still clearly grew significantly on that panel though is my point. The Yata Mirror hence adapted. The snake going over the top is only an issue if it was clear that the mirror wouldn't further adapt to it. But like I said, the next thing we see is the totsuka blade decapitating the snakes... with no viewpoint on the mirror for the reader... Also, the anime takes a lot of liberties with many things and has generated it's own inconsistencies with the manga. I can literally list a ton of things the animators added that did not take place in the manga. For starters, look at Deidara vs Gaara in the manga vs Deidara vs Gaara in the anime, many things happened in the anime that were not even remotely hinted at in the manga. Or even Asuma vs Hidan in the manga vs anime. Here is a kicker, Kakashi and Team Shika against Hidan and Kakazu. Going by the anime Kakashi and Kakazu are near equals in Taijutsu, but in the manga no such Taijutsu Skimirsh ever took place, among other things... So even if the wiki policy allows the use of anime scenes that did not take place in the manga for debating purposes, Clearly that is problematic if the anime contradicts the manga... does it not? The manga did not show those snakes coiling around Susano'o.

So if the one of the cornerstones of your argument is that the anime shows the mirror failing to adapt, then that is fine, and if the wiki policy says that that is canon, that is also fine, but it doesn't mean the anime's depiction is correct. The animators take deliberate liberties with the source material, and as far as I currently know .Kishimoto and his writing assistants/editors had nothing do with the animation of that scene, therefore I do not see how it makes any merit in an honest discussion to determine the validity of Databook 3 (a material also written by Kishimoto and his assistants). My purpose in this dicussion is to determine if the manga, the ultimate source material from the author himself, which takes priority over everything else, failed to show the Yata mirror adapting. If the manga fails to show it adapting, then Databook 3 is debunked. But so far, I think I can still argue the case with you that the mirror would have continued adapting had it been given the chance on Chapter 392 pg 10. CombatIQmatters (talk) 00:47, December 17, 2018 (UTC)

______Well, I see your position in this discussion. To me, your argument rests on the assumption that the mirror will react to the snake in a later panel. Looking on Chapter 392 pg 10, we see the snake over the top, with the mirror not adapting. I find it hard to believe that the YM will let a snake(an attack) over it's guard and then at the last moment adapt to defend. So there are several assumptions being made here, 1) the YM doesn't react at the same moment as the incoming attack, 2) the YM waits till the last moment, 3) the YM adapts perfectly, unless you use another one of your abilities to counter. There are too many assumptions there. Assumptions don't negate what is shown on Chapter 392 pg 10. The YM didn't adapt then, so Databook 3 is debunked as far as I'm concerned.

Ninja Of War (talk) 18:31, December 28, 2018 (UTC)

Well Yes, that panel is very interesting in deed. But I learned a few things from the other examples I presented to you. The mirror clearly adjusts in size and even shape, as even on Chapter 393 pg 6, you can clearly see the SFX :WHOOSH which always signals rapid movement through the air, the same SFX we see when Jiraiya uses lion's mane to restrain Konan or when Yamato sends wood from his body into the air, etc. Going back to 392 pg 10, since as you said, the mirror's invincible defense must hold in all cases. I think the issue is this. We can clearly see on the panel before that the initial "attack " was the 3 snakes coming into headbutt the mirror. The mirror massively increased in size, I hope we at least agree on that much. It's pretty clear. It's covering the head of Susano'o and some of it's protrusions have expanded to cover the side and even essentially the backside, and is touching the ground. It was not doing all those things previously. One of the snakes was turned back. The problem is, time obviously skipped forward, as we have one snake attempting to slither along the leftside, and then we have our favorite snake, the one being deflected upward. The mirror did adapt, the mirror does wait until the "attack" gets close of course. That's the only thing that would make sense, as it was clearly stated the mirror only makes itachi invincible not anyone else. so the mirror only deflects attacks that are in proximity to Itachi by definition. It wouldn't deflect an attack a million miles away obviously.

Next, The Snakes are living creatures and only their momentum( I.e. trying to headbutt or hurt Itachi's susano'o or Itachi in anyway through physical contact) would constitute an attack. So the reason that the mirror doesn't appear to be adapting there is for the simple reason that it's going upward, which is away from Itachi's susano'o. The movement lines there are also ambigious, for all we know the snake is being deflected to the left as much as it is being deflected upward, which further supports why the mirror doesn't appear to be adapting further when actuality it already did it's job. Continuing to move upward and away from susano'o is a good thing and not a threat. If it tries to slither over the top and go down to the susano'o head, I don't see why the mirror wouldn't continue to expand, but we never get the chance to see the mirror or the snakes in the next panel because the Totsuka blade (the slayer of itachi's enemies) did it's job. The reason I'm pushing this point is not because I'm trying to be difficult, it's because I take this seriously. Whether or not that is an outlier is a BIG deal to me because we see the mirror doing it's job just fine to attacks arguably more threatening that snake headsets, and I want to know for sure if the mirror failed to do it's job before declaring both Black Zetsu and Databook 3 to be incorrect in their assertions, because remember, Black AND WHITE Zetsu are watching the mirror, and they are direct witnesses. IF they declared the mirror to be deflecting ALL of Sasuke's attacks and then used that as information to deduce that Itachi is in fact wielding the Yata mirror, I think they are credible in the matter since unlike us they can actually SEE every physical action going on in real time, while all we can see is a snapshot in time with movement lines. The mirror also is seen quickly adjusting back to normal in some cases after defending attacks, so it's really difficult to determine these things precisely given that the mangaka does not always draw every action on panel for us to see. CombatIQmatters (talk) 08:10, December 29, 2018 (UTC)

______I find it interesting that you, and others, consider this piece of evidence (ch392 pg 10) to be inconclusive. When to me, it's clear what is happening. Is it because it concerns Itachi that this manga panel has to be questionable? The snake going over the top has it's mouth open ready to strike and in motion, so how can that not be considered an attack? In the end, you have your opinions and I have mine. In this case however, we have a clear manga panel showing the YM not adapting. That voids any databook that says the YM can block any attack. Context is important, and I explored your explanation of the YM reacting to it later. It doesn't fit, simply because there are several assumptions needed for that to occur and furthermore those assumptions have to be proven in the first case.

Certainly, there is no problem with the YM being a protective shield. Yet when it is claimed that the YM can counter any attack, and it doesn't, then later a databook claims otherwise. That is plain unacceptable. Peace out.

Ninja Of War (talk) 18:19, January 4, 2019 (UTC)

I already told you why I find it inconclusive. 1)The snakes themselves failed to get through to Susano'o. All you have is a snake attempting to go over the top. I would agree with you if we saw in the following panel that the snake was actually able to take a bite at Susano'o. But it was killed before we see anything else. Moving upward is still away from Susano'o. IF it was actually able to successfully crawl over and make it's way down to Susano'o, then there would be no disagreement here on my part. You still didn't address the fact that the mirror expanded in size on that panel too.

2)Character statements. Two separate, unbiased witnesses say the mirror was deflecting ALL of Sasuke's attacks. That in my opinion makes any of my "previous assumptions" have backing, because the people seeing it in real time disagree with you.

3) Mirror even blocked Sasuke's kusanagi, that same sword that easily pierced through the chakra cloak of Juubidara. CombatIQmatters (talk) 13:44, January 10, 2019 (UTC)

_____1) The snake in question went over the top guard of the YM. Don't have to argue anything else, since I'm only interested in the aforementioned manga panel. 2) Well, can Orochimaru's attacks be considered Sasuke's attacks? Black Zetsu is also not that credible considering his true nature. 3) Well, I don't know about any chakra cloak for Juubidara, but ten tails jinchuriki are still susceptible to physical attacks.

Ninja Of War (talk) 10:48, January 11, 2019 (UTC) 1) OR, the mirror deflected it upward. Like I said, you keep ignoring the fact that the extensions on the top of the mirror grew in size just like the rest of the mirror. Those extensions grew and curved over Susano'o head. You can see it with your eyes.... The snake was nowhere near close to getting over the guard. IT was simply moving upward, plus again, SNAPSHOT in time. No evidence that the snake would have been able to crawl over and move down toward Susano'o succesfully.

2) TWO unbiased witnesses. White Zetsu =/= Black zetsu. Sasuke and Orochimaru were sharing the same body and the snakes were projected from Sasuke himself. Black Zetsu is credible. -Akatsuki's information specialist and espionage specialist -Will of Kaguya. -Lol, why would he intentionally lie about a character who is his enemy. Black Zetsu and Obito were SHOWN to know about Itachi's true reason for being in the Akatsuki. So now Black Zetsu is wanking a character who he is neutral towards? -Databook, from the writer himself. He included a NON-hyperbolic statement about the mirror's abilities, which is proof of a stated mechanic. The mirror clearly function as designed, it changed in size, shape, and curvature in response to attacks multiple times, including on Chapter 392 pg 10 -Orochimaru searching for Totsuka, and presumably Yata his ENTIRE LIFE. Orochimaru is a busy guy who wants all ninjutsu, yet he dedicated a significant amount of time to finding those specific weapons

3)Madara was SHOWN to have a chakra cloak. You can see chakra growing off his cloak. HE is a Jinchuriki. He has senjutsu chakra and ten tails inside of him. His durability is incredible. Yet he was pierced by the kusanagi sword, which was easily turned back by Yata. The kusanagi sword was continually hyped to be a very potent blade. Guess what, Totsuka is also listed as a type of kusanagi sword, and it has the incredible feat of piercing through someone as durable as Nagato (easily tanked V2 Lariat). His weaker Shurado path also survived a chidori and punch from choji although it eventually bit the dust to it's injuries.

It also pierced through ORO.Oro is the same guy who can easily tank Tsunade's punches. He is crazy durable. I know the blade is a piercing move, but still. Both Yata and Totsuka have lived up to the hype behind them. CombatIQmatters (talk) 08:28, January 12, 2019 (UTC)

_____1) Well, we clearly see the snake over the top guard of the YM. I'll remind you that there are motion lines around the snake in question as it is depicted indicating the snake is in motion. The motion lines around the YM are from the recoil blocking the snakes. It isn't adapting. What supports my interpretation? The anime depiction covered under the wiki canon policy. Forget what happens after, in the animated episode of this manga page, it happens exactly as I said. Now, you could probably say that is anime only right? Only it isn't, as it is directly taken from the manga page source. Again, forget about the snakes wrapping up Itachi's Susanoo and YM later on. Look specifically at how they animated that manga panel. They made specific (assuming) author approved choices on how to animate that, and there is a reason for that.

2) Ok, no. Orochimaru and Sasuke are separate even if they shared the same body at that point. Sasuke had no control then. Nice try though.

3) Sasuke's weird copy sword of Orochimaru always confused me. Why does it have the same name? What makes it special? How is it different to a normal sword?

Well then, what are the facts? -Despite the name issues, it works just like any katana. It has not been stated to have additional properties nor shown. So, I conclude it's a regular sword.

So why does it have such meaning for you?

Juubidara usage?-Tobirama and Minato mentioned that ten-tails jinchuriki are still susceptible to physical attacks. A katana slash is a physical attack, so yeah.

YM blocking the sword, doesn't have that great meaning when you connect the dots here.

Note: I don't want to go on a tangent here so I'll also try and stay on topic too.

Ninja Of War (talk) 21:40, January 13, 2019 (UTC) 1) I'm not talking about the movement lines though. The Mirror has changed in SIZE. The mirror is almost flat, and is circular and has flame like extensions at the top in it's base form. As soon as the snakes started to attack, the mirror grew in width, height, the full nine yards, and even grew new flame like extensions at the side and from its center. How do you not see this??? Furthermore, The flame like extensions at the top CURVED over Susano'os head. I didn't deny the snakes are moving, but the mirror also visibly changed.

The snake is ABOVE the guard, not OVER it. Those are two very different things. The snake was deflected upward despite the fact it was previously moving in a straight line, and the mirror adapted by curving the extensions over Susano'o head. Who cares if the snake is going upward, that is AWAY from Susano'o. I have seen the anime, and they did a good job until they added in the filler scene of the snakes moving to the side. That never happened in the manga, the snakes were immediately decapitated after being deflected. Even in the anime the snakes clearly got deflected. Furthermore, even then they took liberties. The shield grew like it did in the manga but even they missed several details. The animators don't give a dam about what the author wants or for other reasons they couldn't, or they would make it as accurate as possible.

How do I know the mirror is deflecting them, because you are not looking at the other snake. It's CLEARLY deflected backward. The snake you are focusing on was in the middle of another attack, and was about to be deflected the same way. But then the camera switches to Totsuka. The Shield did it's job.

2)That's not the point. Black Zetsu said the mirror deflects all things, and that there is no mistake... That INCLUDES the snakes he just saw. Orochimaru was doing Sasuke's bidding, they were both trying to kill Itachi at the time, and there was no way to distinguish who the source of the attack was. All Zetsu said was that Orochimaru's chakra was shoving it's way to the surface. Sasuke has shown the ability to use Orochimaru's techniques, including oral rebirth and general snake attacks. In my opinion, Orochimaru regained full control once he remerged, and he was about to initiate the ritual again before he got blitzed by Totsuka. It doesn't make a lick of sense for Black Zetsu to DEDUCE that Itachi has the Yata mirror if the shield just failed to deflect mere snakes. If Black Zetsu is lying, who is he lying to and what's his motive? His role in that battle was to be a SPECTATOR for the audience. I also highly doubt he is stupid, because it would take a whole new level of stupidity to claim a shield deflects all things after seeing it fail to deflect a mere snake. And I have already proven the mirror adapted. You can see it.

3) That's not my point... All ninjas have superhuman durability and strength. Some more than others. Senjutsu chakra was shown to improve DURABILITY and strength. Juubidara has NATURE energy via juubi AND Hashi's sage mode. SM Naruto broke a Rinnegan rod with his BARE HANDS. Then we have the chakra cloaks. Naruto's chakra cloak casually deflects kunai and stuff, we have seen it happen more than once. Madara's chakra cloak easily does the same. Yet, kusanagi pierced through him cleanly.The sword being a physical attack just means it doesn't get immediately nullified, because it's not ninjutsu...  8 Gates Guy's punches would instantly vaporize any normal human yet Madara was tanking them, though with difficulty.  Itachi also cut off Kabuto's horns with that sword and kabuto has Sage mode Durability. Sasuke's sword is stated to be a kusagani and it has the feats.  A regular sword doesn't pierce someone who is in Sage mode with such ease. That sword also pierced through blind Regular Madara who was wielding Sage mode hashiboob as well. Sasuke's kusagani actually has better feats than Oro's, who capped out at failing to pierce through Kn4 naruto. All Kusagani swords have good piercing abilities but I doubt they are all one in the same. We know that isn't true because Totsuka is a kusagani blade yet it has widely different properties. The wiki article on the topic is misleading, because Itachi hasn't shown the ability to telekinetically control Totsuka so... just because Sasuke hasn't controlled his blade telekinetically doesn't make it any less a Sword of Kusanagi. Did we See Totsuka transforming into snakes at any point in the manga???

4) YM blocking the sword is a feat because the sword itself is stated to pierce through almost anything and pierced through one of the most durable entities in the show.

CombatIQmatters (talk) 12:23, January 15, 2019 (UTC)

____1) The snake crossed the guard of the TB. That is the whole reasons for this. It doesn't matter what happened before, crossing over the guard of the YM voids it's claims.

2) I don't know what you are trying to prove with this point. You claimed Orochimaru's attacks were Sasuke's and then quoted a statement from black Zetsu. I have to point out that obviously, Orochimaru and Sasuke are separate even if they share a body. So this point is kinda pointless now? Well, it's speculation to say the least how Black Zetsu knew it was the YM, maybe be just how it looked??

3) OK, you are saying the implied durability is a factor on Juubidara? That might be true, but let's look at what we know. Tobirama and Minato stated that ten tails jinchuriki should still be susceptible to physical attacks. Sage powered Madara was still stabbed by Sasuke's sword. Sage+Kurama Naruto was stabbed by Nagato's black receiver. And finally, Obito managed to pierce Juubidara with his bare hand. The last example in particular can be compared to the sword strike, therefore debunking the claimed feat.

4) The sword may be able to pierce through many things, but that doesn't make it a notable feat considering my point 3).

Ninja Of War (talk) 14:03, January 19, 2019 (UTC)