Board Thread:Naruto Discussions/@comment-26107879-20181004003653/@comment-6769189-20181205115525

LegionZero wrote:

O yes. Kakashi called Chidori fast and Minato says it makes him fast in chapter 240 so that should be the end of the discussion.

ch240, Minato calls kakashi's movements fast. So yeah, let's end it there. Official translation Minato says Chidori makes him fast and Kakashi says the Chidori is fast.

CombatIQmatters wrote: @LegionZero

I have already shown you a manga panel with Kakazu activating Doton:Domu without any handsigns, despite the fact that later on in the same chapter, we get to see his handseals when it's necessary for the plot. Not seeing handsigns =/= them not being cast. It's true that skill can reduce the amount of handseals required for a technique but that doesn't necessarily mean that the technique requires zero hand signs. Sasuke could have easily weaved signs on the ground while killer bee was cutting through suigetsu's sword. After providing numerous cases in the manga where characters were explicitly not shown using signs to perform certain techniques and you are applying situations that were confirmed by the manga to be speed signing and applying them to situations where it is improbable and nonsensical to impossible.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

Further proof? When have you ever seen deidara weaving hand seals for his bombs other than those two fingers he puts up to detonate them? never, except for one occasion : when we get to see his earth style seals when sasuke tracks them with the sharingan. Hand seals are only focused on when it's necessary for the plot is my point. Holy hell. He was creating clones and blowing shit up with NO ARMS. This legit shouldnt be a discussion any more after that point.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

Lol, guy and kakashi were keeping up with those same V2 jinchuriki, so guy and kakashi are as fast as kcm naruto following the logic you used for obito. You have to be consistent. Naruto got tagged on 566 pg 16. he failed to run circles therefore that V2 jinchurki is the same speed as him by your logic. Naruto opted to block an attack, proving that he doesn't always use his yellow flash speed in battle. Stop putting words on my mouth. I never said the Edo-jin were as fast as Naruto. Their connected vision+coordinated attacks+Sharingan were enough to make up for the speed difference.

There were no scenes that showed running speed comparisons between Kakash/Guy and the Edo-Jin soooooo dont even bring this one one up again.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

Lol no, my point is that you keep going on about how the characters always use their top speed but it's been debunked. Naruto didn't use his top speed against juubito. His combination attack with sasuke took priority. The characters choose when to and when not to use their top speed depending on the circumstances. Please stop applying the context of this situation to others with differrnt contexts

CombatIQmatters wrote:

Lol no, naruto slapped the bijuu dama away, there was no counter attack for the bijuu to make. They weren't close enough to a make a counter attack. The danger of the counter attack happens in close range/taijutsu range. Fireballs. Acid spit. Coral attacks. Bubble attacks. Lava attacks.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

Lol no, guy chased obito down and naruto let guy fight obito by himself. Obito had time to run a circle around guy and warp him away going by your logic. When was he supposed to do that? When he was creating distance between himself and Naruto? Or when he was midair? Or when Naruto attacked him with a Mini TBB while still midair?

Actually read chapter and you would realize that Naruto could have hit him if he tried warping Guy away.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

That wasn't even the only time. He had another chance to do when he was warping guy's numchunks away. Guy stalemated obito in CQC, and obito wasn't shown to be faster than guy, therefore they are the same speed. Don't you see the problem with that logic? Stalemate? Because Obito had to stop warping Guy to not get hit dead on with a Rasengan? Obito showed the combat speed to read Guys movements and catch his nunchucks with 0 effort

Again, stop treating this like its a 1v1, because in this very scene Guy would have lost. If not for Naruto intervening.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

The point is, I understand Obito is incredibly strong, but he is not yellow flash levels of speed. He is so strong because of combat speed and kamui, not running speed lol. Minato's actual combat speed isn't as fast as his running speed. Tell that to 595 when Naruto was running for his life and Obito kept pace.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

Lol no, Obito with his purported yellow flash speed would have been able to bitz kabuto before he finished his hand seal in the first place. Again, Obito clearly underestimated him. Obito was shown to be faster than Kabuto already but seeing as how Obito was still mid air by the time Kabuto hit the ground i dont know how you expect Obito to go at him faster

CombatIQmatters wrote:

You still ignore context for the Minato vs obito. Minato was analyzing obito's fighting style, not just kamui. He needed to ensure he ended the fight in a single clash. What happens when his FTG level :2 rasengan misses because he fails to analyze obito properly? Then obito sees through it, and now the fight will drag out. You play your trump card when you are confident your opponent won't adapt. Context for Minato. Finish the fight ASAP to stop the strongest tailed beast from destroying the village

Context for Obito: finish the fight ASAP to get away with Kurama

Minato already analyzed Obito's abilities in their short encounter before the one where he got cought with the chain. You can read the pages where he breaks it down.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

Minato wouldn't use a shadow clone. One, chakra reserves, He has plenty of chakra.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

two, he has to fight the nine tails afterward, and he barely managed to seal half the nine tails chakra away with the death reaper seal. Minato also needed to expend an incredible amount of chakra summoning gamabunta, and then teleporting nine tails away. If he made a shadow clone vs obito he is risking his ability to subdue the ninetail. Had he used a shadow clone he would have been able to see Obito's counter, FTG the clone out, and tag team Obito, disperse the clone and get that chakra back.

Minato used FTG lvl 2 because he couldnt hit Obito otherwise, not because he was sure it would work. Read the manga and doesnt even think to himself that he can do it for a fact.

But if you want to think that the chances of defending the village increase by Minato charging head first at a guy that he knows can turn intangible and solidify with enough reaction time counter him for the sake of analyzing the opponent then idk what to tell you. He didnt even learn anything new and is lucky Obito didnt know/use any lightning jutsu with his chains.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

Lol, what headcanon? Rock lee clearly states a beeline attack is easy to counter, and that running at an incredible speed makes it hard to see your opponent's counter attack without the "eye". No one ever said this applied to Minato. It was never stated to apply to anyone besides characters who jave unnatural speed boosts.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

Minato is no exception. 0 evidence.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

He didn't use his top speed against obito because :1) tunnel vison, Again, no evidence that this is a problem for anyone but those with unnatural speed boosts

CombatIQmatters wrote:

2) obito would still be able to react and phase 0 evidence of this.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

3), there are nice handy dandy chains waiting for minato once he phases through obito Wait, wait, wait. So the chains are a problem if countered at full speed, but not a problem if countered at less than full speed? I cant even....

CombatIQmatters wrote:

and 4) he is analyzing obito's fighting style carefully, he wanted to learn when obito becomes solid with certainty. Seeing something once is not enough to deduce that. you need to see a pattern. With Obito, the same exact thing happened twice, so minato was confident it would happen a third time once he baited obito into materializing. Kakashi broke down Pains techniques after seeing them once. And he used a Lightning clone+2 lightning Jutsu. Minato has a less chakra taxing main offensive jutsu and can keep his clone safe with FTG.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

My point about obito vs Fuu and Torune is that when obito fights the yellow flash, you say with confidence obito is as fast as minato because they weren't running circles around each other, but now when it's Fuu and Torune they aren't as fast as obito and minato ? lol, it's clear that obito isn't as fast as minato, and even if he was even remotely as fast, the characters don't always use their top speed is the point. This would be a somewhat decen argument if Obito didnt stand around the whole time.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

The reason Ayy went V2 was clearly because he felt he needed that speed to evade amaterasu. Notice how A didnt activate V2 from the start.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

He had the intel on amaterasu presumably from intel reports, so he figured sasuke would try to use it on him with the MS. Notice how Ayy didn't make a move until amaterasu was unleashed. After that he used his speed to close the distance, but clearly Sasuke could still react to him. So Sasuke can react to V2 "cant possibly" be as fast as V1?

CombatIQmatters wrote:

V1 Ayy isn't as fast as sasuke just because they both charged at each other, it's been debunked. If Sasuke wasnt as fast as V1 A then V1 A would have taken him out. They charged at eachother with dashing attacks, Sasuke dodged and countered. A tried CQC, Sasuke countered.

A was out for Sasuke's blood so i dont believe for a second that he was holding back V1's speed after seeing Taka's speed prior. To his confrontation with Sasuke.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

Base killer bee and even v1 killer bee is way faster Debatable about base Bee. Base Be didnt land any hits until he attacked with multiple weapons at the same time.

CombatIQmatters wrote:

Furthermore, you are still not understanding that while all attacks benefit from speed, chidori is a piercing move and as such momentum generated from running at extreme speeds makes the move's potency increase tremendously. Rasengan doesn't need those speeds because the sphere itself detonates on contact and grinds into the opponent. You are not understanding that no official information corroborates what you are saying and the manga shows multiple times that the speed doesnt contribute to its peircing potential.