User talk:GoDai/Ideas and Theories

User: GoDai/GoDai Seishitsu Henka, Combinations, and Theories

Any thoughts or suggestions?

Proof: Amaterasu is Fire Release (Databook)
I'll probably put more feedback later, but from the top of my head, I can give you a reference to something you used. Amaterasu is databook-confirmed Fire Release. See ShounenSuki's translation of Itachi's Transcription Seal: Amaterasu. One of the first sentences is that Amaterasu is the most powerful Fire Release technique. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:54, September 1, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, thanks. Finally, some solid confirmation. --GoDai (talk) 02:00, September 2, 2010 (UTC)

answers
Man, I have read "whole" page of yours and I must add we really think alike. What I meant as an enhancer is when the chakra is given properties of an element, when medium the chakra is changed into an element. So we both agree upon this except you say in KKG both are enhancer and medium but I say only 1 is enhancer and 1 medium : P You really have a brain. --Elveonora (talk) 08:00, November 16, 2011 (UTC)


 * Oil: I don' think its an element. Jiraiya when in Sage Mode is basically partially a frog/toad and they were shown to be related to oil. I think it's similar to Curse Seal/Mark or Tailed Beast Transformation since Killer B was shown spitting an ink due to his tailed beast being an octopus ... so spitting ink is related to Jiraiya's not perfect control over natural energy thus turning into a Toad.


 * To Shizune, it's possible she is like Hanzo. Maybe she has something similar as salamander's venom sac implanted.


 * Chakra Disruption Blades and Chakra Receiver's are basically due to Gedo Mazo ... it pinned Nagato with it and since then his body is able to create them. Since Pain's got them too, it's the same.

Chibaku Tensei is I think Magnet Release + Yin Release.
 * Deva Path's gravitation powers are basically Magnet Release on a bigger scale.

The only difference is that Asura is half humanoid/half machine. So I say Nagato uses alike powers in both Deva and Asura.
 * Asura's and Deva's powers are very similar since they use both use Magnetism.


 * Kimimaro's power are a mutation, no chakra transformed.


 * I think Kidomaru used Earth Release to change the strength and composition of his sweat. His sweat is kinda special ... something to do with him being like a spider :P Mutation/KKG or Oro's experiments.


 * Sand thing, yeah I agree Wind+Earth= Sand


 * Two Tail's body of blue flames is just it's form, nothing special.


 * For Steam it's Fire+Water


 * Bubble Release or something is Wind+Water


 * Konan uses a real paper infused with chakra, and her Dance of the Shikigami is basically a Combination Transformation with herself and her paper of chakra.


 * Sai uses Yang Release to bring his Ink painting to life.


 * Most characters used tools/body alternations to create the sound (Dosu,Zaku,Tayuya's flute is kinda magical) in case of Kin&Shima&Fukasaku, just a genjutsu ... so no Sound Release sorry :P


 * Dark Release is not canon

Both Yamato and Hashirama possess Wood Release, though Yamato's control over Kyubi is inferior compared to Hashirama so it's not a Wood thing but rather Hashirama chakra's unique trait.
 * I agree that power to control the Beasts is not due to Wood Release. It's a unique ability to Hashirama's chakra. Tobi controlled the Kyubi with just a normal sharingan and not used any wood pillars to do so, suggesting that Hashirama's chakra enhanced Tobi's normal Sharingan's genjutsu.


 * About Lava written differently, I think it's because in one case it's Fire+Earth (melted earth/magma) and in other Earth+Fire (fire with changed composition to be more sparse-tenuous/Lava)

* Fire+Wind = Scorch (making wind release hot, evaporating water at a molecular level) * Wind+Fire = Laser (Sharp and Thin beams of fire) * Fire+Lighting = Flash (Lighting moving at speed of light) * Lighting+Fire = Heat (Highly vibrating waves of fire causing heat in weather) * Fire+Earth = Magma (Heated earth) * Earth+Fire = Lava (Fire with changed composition) * Fire+Water = Steam (Evaporating water) * Water+Fire = Boil/Acid (creating an acidic hot mist) * Wind+Lighting = Energy * Lighting+Wind = Explosion (Highly vibrating electrons [sparks] getting in contact with oxigen in a high air pressure causing an explosion) * Wind+Earth = Sand (wind cutting and shaping earth minerals into sand) * Earth+Wind = Crystal (Creating Crystals in the air from various compositions by increasing their density) * Wind+Water = Bubble (cutting and shaping water to create bubbles) * Water+Wind = Ice (making wind solid) * Lighting+Earth = Quake (vibrating thus shaking ground) * Earth+Lighting= Magnetism (increasing the potency of electrones) * Lighting+Water = Shock (rotating water under voltage) * Water+Lighting = Plasma/Storm Release (changing state and shape of electricity into beams of lighting) * Water+Earth = Mud (changing state of earth into liquid) * Earth+Water = Corrosion (increasing density and potency of water thus making the corrosion instant)
 * Again my pattern, let me know which you think may be right:


 * Blaze pretty much as I said is Fire/Amaterasu+Yin


 * Can you comment on my Yin/Yang stuff ?

--Elveonora (talk) 09:17, November 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * I think Kishi uses science.


 * Well glad you liked the page, although a lot of the ideas are really old and outdated right now, I don't always find the time to clean this place up.


 * For the section about "possible natures" I don't necessarily think they're natures, but I only listed them so I could use them for ideas later on. For example, obviously sound is not a nature in the cases we've seen so far. So what I would say for that section is, don't really think I'm trying to prove anything, I'm just listing out possibilities, mostly as notes for myself. Deidara's explosive chakra was in that section until it became a nature, so we never know, and that section acts as more like a reminder for myself.
 * For the Tailed Beast-related nature-like things, I'm being patient until Tobi and his Paths break out some techs.
 * I like to keep things in possibility as long as they're there. Movie natures such as Dark are only non-canon just because they're not in the manga yet; Kishi can always just take it and put it in if he wants. Remember, the characters identical to the ones from the movie were revived by Kabuto. Storm Release was actually premiered first in the movie, but Kishi took it and made his own version. Because something is non-canon right now certainly does not mean Kishi can just decide to put it in; they don't restrict him in any way.
 * I like your idea for Sai's techniques. I think it makes sense.
 * The Lava being written differently is the only thing that raises some doubt that there are only 10 combined elements. At the same time, becuase in Japanese they are hardly ever different, I've come to accept they are only different due to their village origins, or something like that. I really don't completely oppose the idea that there are 20 combinations, but at this moment in time, for me personally, there seems to be more pointing at 10 than the amount of hints pointing at 20. I don't oppose it, I might even change it if the manga points out even more hints.
 * The definition of Nature Transformation is any changes in the way chakra behaves, changes in its properties (I would actually like it better if it was called Property Transformation). Therefore, if someone's chakra acts in some way that normal chakra shouldn't, I think of it as a possiblity of nature transformation. Also, another way nature transformation seems to interpreted in the manga is "turning chakra into other elements" by giving normal chakra the same properties (color, mass, volume, phase, temperature, etc.) that the chosen element has. This one is a biggie, as it explains how changing the nature of your chakra allows you to breathe fire and spit water and earth, among other things. All that fire, earth, water, or whatever, is actually still made of chakra, just behaving differently. Remember when the Preta Path absorbed Sage Art: Goemon, and not only did it absorb chakra, it absorbed all of the oil, which shows that the oil was purely made out of chakra. This is the main reason Jiraiya's Toad Oil Bullet's databook entry describing it as "Jiraiya converts his chakra into oil" is important. Recently, the Second Mizukage was seen being able to manipulate an oily water (Simply referred to as oil in the chapter after probably for conciseness). I theorize that he did this by removing some properties (natures) of water from the water and adding some properties of oil. It's also possible that it was Yin Release being applied to Water Release. This could help describe how Jiraiya was turning his chakra into oil also, as the only way to turn chakra into another material is to give it the same set of properties possessed by that substance. In this case, the sticky and slippery feel, viscosity, flammability, color, etc. are all being applied to normal chakra, in order to convert it into oil. This also applies to Shizune's breathing of poisonous gas; if you see the databook entry, it clearly explains how she does it; she kneads her chakra into chemicals inside her body. This is also her giving her chakra poisonous, gaseous properties. While there are 5 major types of basic nature transformation, I find it possible that this is more of a spectrum of colors and that there are infinite varities of the "properties" one can give to their chakra. --GoDai (talk) 06:59, November 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * If I haven't answered some things, I'll try to answer them later, I do find myself quite busy at times. Maybe one topic at a time on this page in different sections would be more comfortable to see rather than my huge walls of text.

Ok, you can always check later :P Feel free to notice me about your theories/speculations. I thought the oil is due to sage mode, but now you are right ... he did that in his normal form. So then I guess its Water+Yin, and it even may be a hint since Mizukage has mentioned Yin Release : P --Elveonora (talk) 07:52, November 17, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah that's pretty much what I meant. The whole reason I mentioned Yin Release being a part of it is because the Mizukage mentioned he's a user of Yin Release, but didn't even mention Water Release when he began. This may mean his Yin techniques and abilities are more significant, which in turn made me think the oily water, which is a big part of his abilities, was related. --GoDai (talk) 10:45, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

Can you please reply on my yin yang stuff i posted to omni's page ? should be in swift release section, thanks. --Elveonora (talk) 12:00, November 18, 2011 (UTC)

Wow ... even your KKG theory is similar to what I'm about to post soon 0_o --Elveonora (talk) 11:49, November 19, 2011 (UTC)

Oh sorry I was away for the weekend at some conference. Would you mind posting the Yin-Yang ideas here as a separate topic? --GoDai (talk) 00:13, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

Yin and Yang
I see. Can you please once again explain me your "formula" how you think the advanced natures are selected ? Yes, Yin and Yang are not nature transformations since it's not elemental ... Thats why I guess it was removed from the Rinnegan. Yin and Yang are transformations of chakra but not into nature. My guess is that yin and yang are being used from the start without even us really noticing. Iruka said something at Chunin exams, and few more times it was mentioned but I dont remember the examples now. I think every not elemental technique uses yin and yang. For example:

Shadow Clones its 3 Yin : 7 Yang Clone Technique 7 Yin : 3 Yang Genjutsu 10 Yin : 0 Yang Medical Ninjutsu 0 Yin : 10 Yang

What Im trying to say is that every technique uses a different ammount of Yin compared to Yang. When Its "only" Yin, its a Yin Release Technique (Genjutsu). When its "only" Yang, its a Yang Release Technique (Medical Ninjutsu). When its 5:5 Yin and Yang, its a Yin-Yang Release (Izanagi and stuff).

Wood Release is still Water+Wood thus 2 elements but only Yang chakra is being used thus I see it something like:

Yang+Water (Chakra able to change shape and state that gives life) enhancing earth as a medium, thus its earth given "life" (Wood).

But in case of Yamato I think he uses Yin instead most of time ... its because:

Except one technique, its wooden pillars instead of trees. Kabuto used him to strenghten Zetsu, and if he is the same as Hashirama then there would be no point because he is just a weaker "clone" Those with Hashirama's cells are said to physically boosted (given Yang energy) Yamato' wooden pillars changed into a trees with Kyubi's yang chakra, thats another reason I think when its pillars its Yin, when trees its Yang. --Elveonora (talk) 10:58, November 21, 2011 (UTC)

Hm well you gotta remember, the word "nature" in "Nature Transformation" doesn't mean "nature and environment". It's the second definition here:, meaning "the innate characteristics of a thing". Yin and Yang are still natures of chakra, since the physical nature and spiritual natures are the very things that chakra is made of. For me it's not really a matter of whether it's elemental or not since they actually never use the word "elemental" in the original Japanese manga, we just commonly refer to the 5 chakra natures as "elemental chakra" because that's a somewhat accurate description for what they do. In fact, all the manga talks about is the different natures (meaning quality or characteristics or behavior) of chakra.

Your point about the wooden poles vs. actual living trees is a matter I brought up myself some while ago, although I decided that we haven't seen enough of Hashirama's techniques to decide that there was this difference with wood/trees. However, I do also have this idea that Yin and Yang in combinations may not need kekkei genkai, or some other exception like that. There is a a possibility of the "oily, slimy liquid" used by the Mizukage is something like Water+Yin, and Sasuke also used Blaze Release, which is also possible in not being a kekkei genkai. Application of Yin and Yang may not necessarily be Yin and Yang, as you say. However, I do find that Yin-Yang Release is definitely the sixth nature, since it was always referred to as such. Because of the importance Madara shows in being able to use Yin-Yang Release, this nature could be the actual kekkei genkai we're talking about, if that makes any sense. --GoDai (talk) 00:58, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

I know, I meant it's not an element. And yes, yin+yang is like wood+water I mean kkg is most likely required to be able to combine them. --Elveonora (talk) 02:34, November 27, 2011 (UTC)


 * Hm yeah. I find it possible that incorporating Yin and Yang into any technique isn't anything unique, although I don't necessarily believe in this. Jiraiya converted his chakra into oil, which isn't one of the five basic natures. At the same time, as I say on my page, it can't be a kekkei genkai or anything unique because it's a ranked technique. It might either be just non-elemental, or incorporating Yin into Water or something like that. Because the Second Mizukage also recently used oil, and as I said earlier, when the Raikage and Mizukage were telling the shinobi about their abilities, Raikage said he uses Lightning Release and the Mizukage said he uses Yin Release, although soon we see him using Water Release as well. This makes me think the Yin is more important than Water as a key component in the type of techniques he uses the most: his oily water. --GoDai (talk) 23:51, November 28, 2011 (UTC)

And do you think I may be right with the stuff above that every non-elemental technique (elemental can as well) uses a different ammount of yin and yang and that only yin = yin release, only yang = yang release and balanced is yin-yang release ? And do you have some new theories except those already posted ? Can you check my talkpage as well and read: and if ya got nerves and guts even the replies part as well ? some stuff there is outdated or no longer relevant since it was proven wrong but some parts may interest you like workings of transformation technique and i would like your comments on that, thanks.
 * http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Elveonora#Naruto.27s_and_Killer_B.27s_Jinchuriki_Forms
 * http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Elveonora#Mikoto_betrayed_Kushina
 * http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Elveonora#Tobi_being_Izuna
 * http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/User_talk:Elveonora#Appearance_of_So6p

Hmm well for your plot-related theories, I really don't have a strong opinion on those, although I did notice the possibility of Tobi actually being Izuna, with those proportions and stuff. However, there's still that chance of him being Obito, Kagami, another Madara, etc. Also, could you tell me where you got the Yin-Yang propertion things for medical ninjutsu and genjutsu and such? --GoDai (talk) 03:33, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

What d0 y0u mean from where I got that ? Same as your theories, observation and and not afraid to use brain. Also Tobi being Obito is like saying Naruto and Gaara are brothers. You, know ... Uzumaki red hair, same age, heigt and weight ... Tobi being Izuna or Kagami is most likely ... but I'm much closer to Izuna. --Elveonora (talk) 04:20, December 12, 2011 (UTC)


 * Oh sorry I thought you said that you got those Yin-Yang ratio things from the manga, I didn't know if it was just your idea. Also, I really don't have a strong opinion on anything for the plot. I didn't say Tobi being Izuna is wrong, I didn't say Tobi being Obito is right. I just said it's always a possibility. And you know, it's really not the exact same because Gaara is not some masked guy that we don't know where he came from. We all know about Gaara's birth to every last detail now. Unless Kishimoto does something crazy and says something like they implanted Uzumaki DNA inside him or something, there is no uncertainty. Compared to that Tobi is simply unknown. Maybe even Kishimoto doesn't know who he is yet. Although you brought up many good points for your Izuna theory, there are plenty of excellent theories for other possibilities too. Don't get me wrong, I seriously don't think he is Obito. But I like to stay open-minded, even if it means I don't have a very strong opinion. I gotta admit there are a lot of good proofs for several sides of the argument. --GoDai (talk) 01:41, December 15, 2011 (UTC)

If Tobi is not Izuna, I will cut off my head and send it to you ... Just more than my bet, I think what I posted are enough connections. Also what do you think about him using chakra chains in latest chap ? Was not that Kushina thingy ? --Elveonora (talk) 02:26, December 15, 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah I thought that the moment I saw that too. It seems Tobi not only has the First's cells, the Sharingan, and the Rinnegan, but also Kushina's "special chakra" that was mentioned several chapters ago... I'm wondering if it's an ability that many Uzumaki had. It seems it's not just the two (Wood Release and Sharingan) that help control Tailed Beasts, but also these chains. They may be part of the "completion" Tobi wants to achieve, full control of the Tailed Beasts. --GoDai (talk) 04:49, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Maybe he cut off and took Kushina's arm for the one Minato damaged :P --Elveonora (talk) 16:55, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Theories of Kekkei Genkai and Advanced Natures?
Wow. Your theories intrigue me. I have my own thoughts and (stupid) theories related to the variety of Advanced Natures and Kekkei Genkai.

The first is that two Kekkei Genkai could possibly share the same elements, but differ in which element is a major part and which is a minor. For instance, with Ice Release, one would naturally assume that Water is the major element as ice is frozen water, and with Wood Release, Earth is the major element as it's impossible for trees to grow without soil of some sort. Perhaps Advanced Natures whose elements we don't know yet utilize the same as previously shown ones...just with a difference of what enhances what and which element is more majorly needed. Explosion Release may utilize Earth and Fire like Lava Release, but utilizes the Earth element more than Fire.

The second is that the differences in the mutant/special genes of a Kekkei Genkai user could change the resulting Advanced Nature created, even if they share the same base elements as another Kekkei Genkai. --66.248.166.73 (talk) 05:02, December 5, 2011 (UTC)BlueRoses


 * Well the major and minor component thing sounds extremely similar to what I'm saying in the page. While the second part of that is pretty interesting, I personally don't find it very likely at the moment, since we've only seen one possibility for each major element. But I'm always open-minded, since Kishi could always switch around which element enhances which, if he actually runs out of nature ideas. --GoDai (talk) 03:35, December 12, 2011 (UTC)

Soap Bubble Ninjutsu
You are right O_O Any more theories ? :D --Elveonora (talk) 00:44, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Hello Godai, I was wondering if we could bring up your soap bubble-alkaline theory in Utakata's talkpage as a way for him to be connected to the Six-Tails. Joshbl56 01:10, December 16, 2011 (UTC)


 * Hmmm. It was just a random thought I had. We still don't have confirmation to make that a fact, although I do plan to post it on this page right now. I think each of the beasts have some sort of substance, although I have no idea if they're all elements, or just element-like abilities.
 * One - Sand, Two - Fire (Blue fire? All its attacks use red fire), Three - Coral (It seems Water Mirror is just Yagura's jutsu), Four - Lava (This one is the only one definitely an element), Five - Steam (Unconfirmed), Six - Alkali, Seven - Insect Scales (not sure if this is the element, could be something else), Eight - Ink, Nine - ???. I'm hoping Naruto will get some epic ninjutsu ability rather than just the Yang chakra and Evil-sensing thing.

I would love to post the idea, but I don't like posting ideas until they're definitely true. I'm just glad that Bubbles weren't the main ability of the Slug, it would've been pretty flat and boring for me. I always had thought the Six-Tails was providing something that Utakata could mix water, which many ninja can make, with it to blow bubbles. I should've guessed earlier that it would be the alkaline substance that was forming the soap. --GoDai (talk) 04:45, December 16, 2011 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the reply. I know that it's still a theory but we have theories on the trivia for tailed beast skill which mentions Utakata's bubble ninjutsu as something that might be connected to the Six-Tails. This might help out a little with that section (I know I jumped sections but I was reading the trivia their and thought it would probably be better put).
 * Also, for the seven-tails, I think it's main 'element' is Beetle/Bugs as it has used both insect scales and bug bites. We will just have to wait and see what happens when/if Fu changes into the Seven-Tails. Joshbl56  05:01, December 16, 2011 (UTC)
 * Hmm while I'm considering it, I'll just see how well accepted by some users it is for now. And as for the Seven-Tails, I know that's its theme, but I'm expecting something more amazing :P. And yeah, I'm not sure how all of these will relate to the natures we have now, besides Lava. They might just end up like Spider Sticky Gold, Shikotsumyaku, Sai's jutsu, and all those other things that control substances with chakra. --GoDai (talk) 05:19, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Another cool possibility is if the acidic effects of Boil Release was used to subdue the Six-Tails by neutralizing its alkali when it went rampant, like how Gold Sand was used on Shukaku. But eh, who knows. --GoDai (talk) 03:16, December 23, 2011 (UTC)

wood release,tobi/izuna and so6p,ten-tails/gedo mazo
Hello, do you think Hashirama is really the origin ? There was some convo on this in so6p talkpage. I believe it originates from Ten-Tails, making so6p an user as well. Also what do you think Sage looked like, have you ever imagined him? Also do you think he get the Rinnegan after or before he became a host ? Had he sharingan as well ?

Also to that what I have posted on my talkpage, I have some more proofs Tobi is Izuna. Tobi's and Izuna's and also Madara's eyebrows, eyes, ears and base of hair are the same.

And what do you think about Gedo Mazo being Ten-Tails, have you read/heard something on this ? I support that ... also, Thanks. --Elveonora (talk) 02:45, January 3, 2012 (UTC)