Talk:Hagoromo Ōtsutsuki

Can We Please
Can we please update this article as well as any article with the latest information regarding Hagoromo's background? He did not create the Moon on his deathbed, we saw a young Hagoromo and Hamura create it together when they used Six Paths - Chibaku Tensei on the Ten-Tails. It's husk became the core of the Moon whilst it's chakra was sealed in Hagoromo making him it's Jinchuriki. Then Hamura left with the rest of the Otsutsuki clan and went to the Moon while Hagoromo stayed on Earth and we all know what happens after that. That is literally the only version of the story that makes sense. Kurama saying he survived extraction because of Gedo Mazou is false because he didn't have it in him at the time for obvious reasons. We need to go by the latest and most logical version of the story. It's been long overdue for this page and any other article that keeps this false interpretation of events to be changed. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 22:19, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

If someone doesn't respond I'll do it myself because the current information is wrong. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 19:27, May 3, 2016 (UTC)
 * Sure, it needs to be update. However, the fakelore version should still be mentioned somewhere in the article, as it was how some of Hagoromo's feats became known. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:06, May 3, 2016 (UTC)
 * Worth noting that aside from Obito's explanation (and the second fanbook repeating it), Toneri in the novelisation of The Last also claims Hagoromo created the moon after the tailed beasts, despite the movie itself showing Hamura standing on the moon while he was young. So we can't frame it as just "Obito was misinformed", it appears to have been a true retcon and should probably be treated as such.--BeyondRed (talk) 00:25, May 4, 2016 (UTC)

It should be mentioned for sure but it's incorrect, what Toneri said is incorrect too unless The Last novel > Manga which clearly isn't true. Either way, the pages should be updated cause the version about Hagoromo making the Moon on his deathbed is false and contradicts what the Manga showed us. Obito, Madara, Kurama, and Toneri are not reliable sources because they were either not around at that time and have distorted view of what happened. Hagoromo and Black Zetsu are the most legit sources for obvious reasons. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 00:58, May 4, 2016 (UTC)
 * Right, totally agree that it needs to be changed. We just need to decide on a consistent way of handling this issue on all the pages it affects (Hagoromo, Ten-Tails, Demonic Statue, etc.) and also what to do about Hagoromo supposedly surviving extraction thanks to the Demonic Statue's life force.--BeyondRed (talk) 02:09, May 4, 2016 (UTC)

Consistent way? Just do it the same on all of the pages by mentioning the actual version of events as well as the folklore version. As for Hagoromo surviving the extraction due to the Gedo Mazou, Kurama must have got it wrong cause it was gone long before then. Kurama was only a baby back then anyway so him having a distorted version of the story isn't that hard to believe. Hagoromo is the ancestor of the Senju and Uzumaki anyway, he should be able to survive the extraction due to his own powerful life-force. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 03:29, May 4, 2016 (UTC)
 * Consistent as in where we present the old version of events, be it in the background or as trivia. As for Kurama, he technically never actually says that Hagoromo survived because of the statue's life force, only heavily implies it. He explains how a Ten-Tails jinchūriki won't die because of its life force and when asked how he knows that, he alludes to Hagoromo. So it could be an indirect way of saying Hagoromo survived because he himself had powerful enough life force, but admittedly it is a stretch.--BeyondRed (talk) 06:18, May 4, 2016 (UTC)

I suggest that folklore/legend/myth version of the events are listed in trivia. Whilst the actual version are listed in the background section of each article. That'd make it consistent and more accurate. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 20:46, May 4, 2016 (UTC) As I am not an experienced editor, I think it'd be best if one of them handled this as there doesn't appear to be any disagreement. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 15:20, May 5, 2016 (UTC) Is this going to be taken care of? --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 21:53, May 9, 2016 (UTC)
 * If there are no objections, I'll take a shot at it. Last time I proposed something like this, it sparked a bit of debate over the issue. One of the problems is that, while it seems like a logical conclusion, there's no actual source saying that Hagoromo only had the Ten-Tails' chakra inside him, everything just says he was the jinchūriki. Thus, some theorize he summoned the Ten-Tails out of the moon, sealed it inside himself, then later sent the husk back to the moon before his death. Of course, there's no source for that either.--BeyondRed (talk) 23:05, May 9, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, it's hard to imagine that Kurama would be wrong, but then again, let's see what happened to Kaguya when Naruto and Sasuke used it. The body got sealed and the chakra leaked out, so if it worked the same in both instances, then Hagoromo indeed just had the chakra while the body became the Moon. In that case it's questionable if he ever was a Ten-Tails jinchuuriki.--Elve Talk Page 05:58, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

Like you said, we saw what happened to Kaguya when Naruto and Sasuke used it on her and that is the exact same thing Hagoromo and Hamura did. Proving that the Moon was created then and the Gedou Mazou was sealed away at that point, which overrules anything else any of the other character has said. They created the Moon when they sealed away the Gedou Mazou; and Hagoromo became the Jinchuriki via it's chakra. While Hamura and the rest of the clan departed to the Moon to guard it's body and live there. We saw this happen when they were young too, so this overrules the entire "on his deathbed Hagoromo did" ect. The only thing he could've done on his deathbed that hasn't been retconned is creating the tailed beasts and making Asura his successor before dying. Despite only having the chakra of other tailed beasts, Naruto is still considered the Jinchuriki of them all. This means that even with just the chakra of a tailed beast you can still be classified as a Jinchuriki. I don't see why Hagoromo couldn't be known as the Ten-Tails' Jinchuriki simply for having control over it's chakra too. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 06:07, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

Byakugan
The promo for next week's episode showed that Hagoromo had the Byakugan at a young age. Since it is filler, would we add it to the article as anime only next week? D.Phoenix (talk) 04:30, May 13, 2016 (UTC)
 * If it's really the Byakugan, then yes. However, not all special-looking eyes are dojutsu. So even if his eyes resemble the Hyuga eyes, it doesn't necessarily mean that he has the Byakugan kekkei genkai. I mean, just having the Hyuga eyes doesn't mean one has the Byakugan, hm? • Seelentau 愛 議 07:24, May 13, 2016 (UTC)
 * We wait next week ;-) --Sharingan91 (talk) 07:42, May 13, 2016 (UTC)
 * Hagoromo obviously has a byakugan in the latest episode, white/gray eye with no pupil. All Ohtsutsuki's have byakugan eyes, unless Hagoromo was born with rinnegan, he should have byakugan. --DC52 (talk) 15:43, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * If he has Byakugan, why didn't he use it? he always relied on his brother, the one who uses Byakugan has veins bulged around their eyes, Hagoromo was not seen activating it, so I don't think these are Byakugan but just white eyes.--Mecha Naruto (talk) 15:50, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * They all have white eyes, but that doesn't necessarily mean they all automatically have the Byakugan. If Hagoromo did have the Byakugan, then there wouldn't have been much of a point in Hamura activating his to see things like Haori being wrapped up if Hagoromo could do it himself. Until Hagoromo shows veins around his eyes, I wouldn't suggest adding him as a Byakugan user. 15:51, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * @WindStar7125, Hagoromo's eyes can be seen to be beyond a doubt byakugan, when he uses lightening style. --DC52 (talk) 15:57, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

All Otsutsuki have Byakugan.. but in his case it seems his never actually activated. He activated Sharingan instead.. fully matured. QuakingStar (talk) 15:59, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * That's not a Byakugan. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:00, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * No veins, no Byakugan. Showing me that image doesn't make much of a difference. 16:01, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * I feel I should play devil's advocate here and say that's a Byakugan that just doesn't get activated. Thus far ALL Tennin have Byakugan, every single one so far, Hagoromo just hasn't activated, but white eyes people, that is a Byakugan guys whether you want to accept it or not. Shock Dragoon (talk) 16:07, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Hagoromo's byakugan is similar to Boruto's, no veins. If you watch the episode from @07:00-07:03 you can see Hagoromo's pupil-less white eye gain a byakugan-esque pupil, then fade away. Besides, all Ohtsutsuki are supposed to have the byakugan, if Hagoromo wasn't born with the rinnegan, then he should have a byakugan. --DC52 (talk) 16:10, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * First of all, no illegal links. Second, Boruto's eye wasn't even confirmed to be a Byakugan. Third, even if he has the typical Hyuga eyes, it doesn't mean that he can also use the Byakugan. They're still two different things. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:19, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Hagoromo using Byakugan without a vein implies that he can use Byakugan without any strain which even his mother cannot do and that is just impossible . We don't know how Boruto obtained that Byakugan may be he implanted, or his eyes changed into one, we don't have to jump to conlusions guys. Hagoromo is half Otsutsuki, Gammamaru call them humans may be Hagoromo has his mother's eye but without any power and that is why he is seen using ninjutsu while his brother uses dojutsu, Hagoromo having Byakugan and top of that Sharingan is not possible guys.--Mecha Naruto (talk) 16:28, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

One thing lots of people don't get... the white eye ISN'T Byakugan, it's an alien eye. The veins indicate the doujutsu.--Elve Talk Page 18:47, May 19, 2016 (UTC)


 * Curious of something; if the veins indicate the doujutsu and the white eye means jack, wouldn't Himawari's eyes remained normal when her Byakugan activated?--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 19:01, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * In fact, doesn't the Byakugan itself (as shown on this very Wiki) mean "White Eye" and we are now moving as if the actual "White Eye" means nothing? I mean, we've reached a great deal for a lot of things but this just seems...odd. Even for our very stupid standards.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 19:04, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well Himawari's case seems to imply that... she awoke Byakugan from her normal human eyes, so i would say that only the activated form is Byakugan and the white eye is simply Otsutsuki alien race trait.--Elve Talk Page 19:07, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Fortunately, we'll be able to see Himawari with her Byakugan animated and in colour rather soon, so we'll know for sure then :)--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 19:11, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * By that logic, the Byakugan should be immediately removed from Kinshiki's page. He was never shown to use the Byakugan, but rather was just assumed to have one because of his white eyes. Ten Tailed Fox (Talk) 19:25, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * That wouldn't be too much of a problem to do so then, TTF (Unless it was stated somewhere he had the Byakugan?). The Byakugan is represented by the activation, with the white eye and the veins. 19:28, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * It would be a problem (or wouldn't, depending on your point of view): if the wiki sets this precedent with Hagoromo and Kinshiki, then that means they also have to remove Byakugan from every single Hyūga Clan member who wasn't shown activating their Byakugan, or where their possession of the Byakugan wasn't specifically mentioned by the anime, manga, or databook. Which would be stupid, but that's what's being said in this argument. I do understand the hesitation to add Hagoromo as a user of the Byakugan, but creating more work for the sake of giving the finger to a filler arc that is quite obviously trying to give the impression that Hagoromo had the Byakugan is asinine. Its filler. Slap an anime-only tag on it, mention he was never seen activating it, and be done with it. Ten Tailed Fox (Talk) 19:37, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure both Shikis were said to have the Byakugan. Nice to see you around TTF, btw. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:40, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

Yes of course, they are just normal white eyes, which are similar to normal black eyes of Uchiha, only few possess these Kekkei Genkai to awaken the Byakugan, Tenseigan. Hagoromo was never stated to posses Byakugan, but he was stated to posses Sharingan because Indra was said to posses his father's eyes. Atleast not the veins but something close to activating Byakugan must be shown to accept that he has Byakugan.--Mecha Naruto (talk) 19:42, May 19, 2016 (UTC) ''if the wiki sets this precedent with Hagoromo and Kinshiki, then that means they also have to remove Byakugan from every single Hyūga Clan member who wasn't shown activating their Byakugan, or where their possession of the Byakugan wasn't specifically mentioned by the anime, manga, or databook. Which would be stupid'' Okay. But that would be like saying every Uchiha member automatically has a Sharingan despite us not seeing the Uchiha in question activate it though. Like we're saying here, the activation has to be seen and/or confirmed before a user is added. 19:43, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Hold on, back up a bit: this wiki already does that with the Hyūga. Every single Hyūga is listed as a Byakugan user because it is assumed (literally says that on the Byakugan page) that they are born with the Byakugan. Check them—every Hyūga and Ōtsutsuki are listed as Byakugan users, regardless of whether or not they are ever seen using them (at least the ones with blank-white eyes). Now, because Hagoromo never used his in the episode, and because we've got a few on here that despise everything this filler arc is doing, we're not going to list Hagoromo, even though (as far as the anime is concerned, anyways) his mother had it and his brother had it (yet somehow, I'm supposed to believe he doesn't). It's reaching. Its actually majorly reaching, and going against precedent. That's all I'm trying to point out. Ten Tailed Fox (Talk) 19:47, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * If Hagoromo had the Byakugan, why did he never use it, especially in situations he asked his brother to use it? • Seelentau 愛 議 19:50, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * I actually don't dislike the filler. Except, Hagoromo isn't of the Hyuga clan. The Otsutsuki clan had white eyes before receiving the chakra to activate the Byakugan in the first place. Adding him as a user implies he can somehow activate the Byakugan when he hasn't been shown doing so, and instead his brother activating it on top of that. 19:54, May 19, 2016 (UTC)


 * @Tau: Who knows? He might not have wanted to, he might be a bossy older brother, he might be lazy. I can list a bunch of reasons why he might not have used his own Byakugan. It's filler and, even though I enjoy this filler, I will be the first to admit the writing hasn't been top notch whatsoever. Why did his Sharingan awaken fully matured? Again, no clue. But the anime obviously gave him featureless white eyes, because, like everyone else who has ever had them thus far, he has the Byakugan. If the wiki decides not to list it, that's fine. I totally understand why that decision would be made; all I'm arguing for is that, if Hagoromo is going to be treated this way on such scant evidence, then every other Byakugan user who has never been seen/stated to have activated their eyes needs to be treated the same for consistency's sake.
 * @Windy: Your logic is sound... somewhat. I'm iffy on giving every Hyūga Byakugan simply because they're Hyūga, because that is hypocritical to what you're arguing here; but the filler arc's logic is not so solid and they may have just given him Byakugan because of his mother and brother. We have no idea if the other clan members could use Byakugan before they got chakra because not all of them ate from the divine tree, not to mention we haven't seen any Ōtsutsuki before chakra (unless you count Kaguya in this filler arc, and she was shown using powers before she ate the fruit), so I'm not sure how you can make the argument that their eyes are just naturally white and featureless.
 * Ten Tailed Fox (Talk) 19:57, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Seems hypocritical, doesn't it? But like you said earlier, Hyuga were stated to be born with the Byakugan, no? Uchiha weren't stated to be born with the Sharingan. And that is not necessarily the case with Otsutsuki, who had white eyes before chakra came into the equation. 20:01, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Is there actually a statement anywhere in the anime or manga that Hyūga possess the Byakugan from birth? Because going by Himawari's example, it seems to awaken under certain circumstances just like every other dōjutsu. Though she could be the exception to the rule.--BeyondRed (talk) 20:03, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

It says that on the Byakugan page, according to Ten. I'll double check. 20:05, May 19, 2016 (UTC)


 * There is no such statement. Even the Byakugan page on this very wiki says that it is an assumption that they are born with the Byakugan—there's no real proof. Ten Tailed Fox (Talk) 20:06, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

I swear DB4 made it clear that the Byakugan was present before she ate the Shinju Fruit. TakL had the translations on narutoforums too.. QuakingStar (talk) 20:07, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Jeezus. If I knew Hagoromo possibly having the Byakugan would cause this much of a debate, I would have just said go ahead and add it. 20:09, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's indeed true and Seelentau I think said too that it says so, although I'm not sure how it's relevant to the overall topic.--Elve Talk Page 20:10, May 19, 2016 (UTC)


 * The databook said (p.66-67): In both eyes, Kaguya carried the Byakugan. Eating the fruit of the Shinju awakened the Rinne Sharingan on her forehead. That would seem to suggest she had the Byakugan before the fruit. Ten Tailed Fox (Talk) 20:10, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

両目に”白眼”を宿したカグヤは神樹の実を食べ、額の ”輪廻写輪眼” も開眼.

"In both eyes, Kaguya carried the Byakugan. Eating the fruit of the Shinjyu, she also awakened the "Rinnesharingan" on her forehead." to confirm what he said there. From OD herself. QuakingStar (talk) 20:12, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, if the databook truly says that, there's not much we can do, is there? 20:13, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

How is that relevant though, to the issue of Hagoromo having or not having the Byakugan and if Hyugas are born with it or not?--Elve Talk Page 20:16, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * It means Aliens naturally have Byakugan and there no just white eyes without chakra variant. Rage gtx (talk) 20:17, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

OD Clarifies

"Np~ No, it was all one sentence, but I had to split it up in order to make sense in English. Meaning that by eating the Shinjyu fruit, she obtained the both the Rinnesharingan and Byakugan (at the same time). But if I kept the format, it goes: 両目に”白眼”を宿したカグヤは神樹の実を食べ、額の ”輪廻写輪眼” も開眼. Kaguya, who carried the Byakugan in both eyes, ate the fruit of the Shinjyu, (and) also awakened the "Rinnesharingan" on her forehead. It's unclear if it truly meant that she had it prior. But I assume not, since the Byakugan is a product of chakra in order to see the chakra point system...she would have no use for it because there would be no chakra to see in the first place before she ate the fruit. Unless she used the Byakugan to find the fruit? I just assumed that the "also" means they happened to be unlocked simultaneously. she also awakened the Rinnegan Oops I typo'ed that. Should be Rinnesharingan. Fixed~" QuakingStar (talk) 20:20, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Wait, so she got the Byakugan at the same time she did the Rinne Sharingan? Eh? It's unclear if she had the Byakugan before eating the chakra fruit? Eh? 20:24, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * If my understanding of language is correct, it means prior, since 'carried' is past tense and as she ate the fruit, she 'also' got the Rinne Sharingan, which means subsequently.

Just because it says that Kaguya had had Byakugan prior to chakra doesn't mean that it refers to the white alien eyes themselves but possibly the activated state. After all, Hyuga when they activate their doujutsu yell 'Byakugan!!!' if the white eye itself were Byakugan, there would be no need for that. The Byakugan just originates from the white alien eye, but as shown with Himawari, the activated doujutsu state, the actual Byakugan can be accessed even without alien eye genes--Elve Talk Page 20:27, May 19, 2016 (UTC)


 * @WindStar7125, Byakugan means "White Eye", a white eye literally is Byakugan. Arguing that a white eye without veins isn't a byakugan is silly. Kaguya had chakra before eating the god fruit, and was able to use byakugan techniques before eating the god fruit. So arguing that Ohtsutsuki's have white eyes that aren't byakugan is a baseless claim. This wiki already lists Kinshiki as a user of the byakugan, even though he never showed veins. Even if Hagoromo's byakugan is "incomplete" it should still be listed, because Shijima's incomplete sharingan is listed. --DC52 (talk) 20:52, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

DB4 confirms she did not have chakra before eating the fruit. You need chakra for Byakugan, and Hinata's DB4 page mentions how she "can control the Byakugan" meaning you need chakra to use and control it. QuakingStar (talk) 20:57, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

"@WindStar7125, Byakugan means 'White Eye', a white eye literally is Byakugan. Arguing that a white eye without veins isn't a byakugan is silly." Way to take things literally. That's like saying the Sharingan eyeball itself is a "technique" simply because its a doujutsu and doujutsu literally translates to "eye technique". Things like Genjutsu: Sharingan are actual techniques and jutsu. Not the first time a term and its literal translation are used as two different things. "Kaguya had chakra before eating the god fruit, and was able to use byakugan techniques before eating the god fruit." Lol, you have no proof of that. ^^ "This wiki already lists Kinshiki as a user of the byakugan, even though he never showed veins." It was stated elsewhere, according to Tau. 20:59, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Kaguya used some kind of power to repel those soldiers, and she had no veins prior eating the fruit in episode 460. I think she had chakra before the tree came from other planet she was the first person to use chakra on Naruto's planet. There is no such thing as magic in Naruto verse so I guess she used her normal Byakugan white eyes.--Mecha Naruto (talk) 21:05, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * I agree with Mecha Naruto. Rewatch episode 460. Before eating the God Fruit, Kaguya was clearly using chakra. Here are the timestamps of when Kaguya uses jutsu before eating the God Fruit - @04:34, @14:55, @15:06, @17:55 (looks like Eight Trigrams Vacuum Palm), @18:26.. --DC52 (talk) 21:18, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well this went discussion went exactly as I expected it to. :D --TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol.svg (talk) 21:26, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * I think Windy quite possibly is aware of the anime episode and that Kaguya used some sort of power and jutsu prior to her magical apple ingestion, but he is talking within the context of manga canon alone I would say. Back to what the databook says, unless my linguistic knowledge sucks, the way it's worded clearly says that she had Byakugan prior to chakra fruit.--Elve Talk Page 21:27, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * Correct, DB4 also said Kaguya had the byakugan before eating the God Fruit. The whole lore behind Ohtsutsuki's is that they plant god tree's on planets then eat the fruit. It's only logical that Kaguya's parents did the same, meaning Kaguya was born with her own chakra. All Ohtsutsuki's are born with the byakugan, that should include Hagoromo. If the intention was for Hagoromo to not have Byakugan, then he would not have white eyes. --DC52 (talk) 21:38, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

Well, Asura and Indra weren't born with white eyes and aren't known to have had the Byakugan, so that leads credibility to white eye = Byakugan... but Himawari case is very fishy then. But then again, Kishimoto had intended to give her and Boruto Byakugan, just forgot, so maybe that was just a lazy way to correct that. But let's cut this short... if we accept that white alien eye = Byakugan, then Hagoromo should be listed as a user.--Elve Talk Page 21:43, May 19, 2016 (UTC)


 * We shouldn't be talking about Kaguya here. Hagoromo had white eyes but he didn't use it, he might have the capacity to use it but it was not mentioned in canon sources. Hagoromo's bloodline didn't have these eyes, only Sharingan was passed down to his children, so listing Byakugan as Hagoromo's Kekkei Genkai is wrong, I feel. Some Uchiha are born with powerless black eyes and they get converted to Sharingan after they underwent some trauma, same thing has happened here, Hagoromo's White eyes are converted to Sharingan. Canonically only Sharingan and Rinnegan was mentioned as his dojutsu. If there is a proof that would tell us that all Otsutsuki's are born with Byakugan then this would solve the debate, may be The Last book would clear things.--Mecha Naruto (talk) 21:54, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

I have not read everything mentioned so far, so forgive me if I'm not adding anything new. I believe Hagoromo's eyes pre-Sharingan were indeed Byakugan. He simply didn't bother using them like Hamura did. Saying his eyes were not Byakugan is like saying every Hyuga who did not activate the Byakugan did not have Byakugan. The lack of veins just shows he didn't activate it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:11, May 19, 2016 (UTC)
 * The Rinnegan, I presume accidentally, has been removed from his infobox. More so a consensus should be reached on the entire white eye = byakugan, white eye =/= byakugan thingy--Elve Talk Page 09:14, May 20, 2016 (UTC)
 * When and where was it established that Byakugan is white eyes with vein and not just only white eyes? An exception is shown when Kaguya used her Byakugan without protruding veins, since it is established she had Byakugan prior eating chakra fruit. Kinshiki never showed his white eye use although inactivated it is still called Byakugan, going by that logic I say it is safe to put Byakugan for Hagoromo, he is just unable to use it, most likely this Kekkei Genkai didn't pass to his descendants just like Hashi's wood release didn't pass to his descendants. --Mecha Naruto (talk) 11:00, May 20, 2016 (UTC)
 * I think we should also talk about the possibility of using the title "Byakugan" for the activating technique and also for the featureless white eyes, since it is stated that every hyuga and Otsutsuki from Hamura's descent have the Byakugan it should stay like it already is at the articles. But we should mention that the Otsutsuki's normal eyes are called Byakugan as a Kekkei Genkai for Hagoromo: I vote against it.
 * Let me explain what I said earlier. Think of an Uchiha: before activating the Sharingan, they have normal eyes like everyone else, and after activating it, those eyes are instantly called the Sharingan. But with the Byakugan, it's kinda different as featureless White Eyes = Byakugan. That's what we have now. It's the name and they are "normal(alien)" eyes. The Kekkei Genkai now, is a different story as it is also called Byakugan but it needs activation, just like the Sharingan in this aspect.
 * As I said, since every Otsutsuki and Hyuga from Hamura's descent are said to have the Kekkei Genkai, then it should remain as it is. On Hagoromo's part, we can only assume he only has the "Byakugan Eyes(No Kekkei Genkai)" until it is stated otherwise.  SeraphAngel   Rinnegan Sasuke.svg 13:06, May 20, 2016 (UTC)
 * Kinshiki has Byakugan because in his drawings we saw the swollen veins and databook Zai no Sho . And if I'm not wrong, it is told in the novel! --Sharingan91 (talk) 13:07, May 20, 2016 (UTC)

@Mecha Naruto: Byakugan was only ever the white eye. The veins are how it's shown it's activated. I don't think the stuff she did before eating the fruit in the anime counts as Byakugan stuff. No veins there. SeraphAngel, Sharingan are only called Sharingan when activated. You need to awaken them before using them. With Byakugan, it has always been awakened/useable from birth, which is why it already looks white. Other than Himawari (Boruto's still on-going discussion aside), no Byakugan has ever required awakening before being used. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:21, May 20, 2016 (UTC)
 * Fine, I understand now, I'm up for adding Byakugan to this article.--Mecha Naruto (talk) 23:47, May 20, 2016 (UTC)
 * We could simply mention that Hagoromo had these eyes but he didn't use them.--Mecha Naruto (talk) 13:31, May 22, 2016 (UTC)

This is an honestly silly argument. We have never before required veins for the confirmation of a Byakugan, evident by the numerous Hyuga listed as having byakugan without showing veins. Veins simply show the activation of a byakugan. Infact, in the past, the only requirement for being listed as having the byakugan was being a Hyuga. The Byakugan is a natural trait that all Ohtsutsuki's and Hyuga are born with. You have to also consider the intent of SP, if SP intended Hagoromo to not have Byakugan, they would not have given him white pupil-less eyes. --DC52 (talk) 16:30, May 22, 2016 (UTC)

Just noting that this is the Byakugan dōjutsu. Not this, this or this. • Seelentau 愛 議 16:36, May 22, 2016 (UTC)
 * Correct, but all those guys are listed as having "this" because of their White Eyes and Clan. So why should the same not be applied to Hagoromo? --DC52 (talk) 16:53, May 22, 2016 (UTC)
 * Just to point out, at the beginning of The Last, the bullies were teasing Hinata about her white eyes, not the activated state, calling her Byakugan monster I think.--Elve Talk Page 16:57, May 22, 2016 (UTC)
 * Because Hagoromo isn't part of the Hyuga clan. That's the whole point of the two brothers-plot. Hamura was the one who got the Byakugan and passed it on to the Hyuga. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:03, May 22, 2016 (UTC)
 * Perhaps the whole atavism thing with the Hyuga is true then. Also, Neji referred to his eyes without veins as byakugan. --DC52 (talk) 17:07, May 22, 2016 (UTC)
 * No, it's not true. It's just that kekkei genkai are not always inherited dominantly. You can be part of a clan without having inherited the kekkei genkai. And that example isn't fit, because after all, we know that Neji has the Byakugan. He obviously didn't through it with his normal eyes. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:11, May 22, 2016 (UTC)
 * We need the databook entry on Byakugan to settle this, i think. Hamura sealed away the eyes of all his descendants, so the Hyuga would have no eyes if they descended from Hamura. I should also mention that we still list non-canon things, some of which likely contradict lore/canon. --DC52 (talk) 17:16, May 22, 2016 (UTC)
 * There is nothing to settle, really. The Byakugan is a Kekkei Genkai, it's an anomaly of your DNA. If you have that anomaly, you can do what Neji and the others can do. Having those lavender eyes is not the Kekkei Genkai. And what are you talking about? Hamura sealed the eyes of those who were on the moon. Also, that's not how genetics work at all. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:23, May 22, 2016 (UTC)

Once again, it makes no sense for white eyes not to be Byakugan, considering everything that was seen through the entire series. The only way Hagoromo's eyes as shown in these last episodes were not Byakugan is through extreme cherry-picking. Even in The Last, when Toneri used Puppet Reincarnation, the eyes that had been sealed, without the rest of the bodies, so no veins, were considered Byakugan. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:01, May 22, 2016 (UTC)
 * Considering everything we know, it does make sense. • Seelentau 愛 議 18:05, May 22, 2016 (UTC)
 * Boruto Yes and Hagoromo No?? It takes a bit of consistency. ^_^ I am against but we cannot use two different evaluation methods. u.u Kakashi had said that the Sharingan had origins of the Byakugan. Perhaps we need to go in this direction.--Sharingan91 (talk) 19:24, May 22, 2016 (UTC)
 * Sigh, let's just list the Byakugan and be over with this.--Elve Talk Page 00:31, May 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * Why? Would be unconfirmed information. We tend not to do that if we can avoid it. The only thing that hints at him having the Byakugan is his normal eye colour, which isn't unusual considering who's his mother. Everything else speaks against it. • Seelentau 愛 議 00:45, May 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * Not really. And I still don't see a counter-argument for the Puppet Reincarnation issue I brought up. If no veins means no Byakugan, than removed eye shouldn't be called Byakugan, yet the Puppet Reincarnation clearly uses sealed away Byakugan. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:15, May 23, 2016 (UTC)

This comes from Storm 4. I got the ripped models and textures. It shows Byakugan un-activated and activated. The actual Byakugan Dojutsu is the one with the Pupil in it, the white-ish eye with no pupil is just the persons normal eye. All pre-indra-asura Otsutuki have whitish eyes, it's a feature of the alien race. QuakingStar (talk) 03:03, May 23, 2016 (UTC)

http://imgur.com/vc4Ia8P
 * @Seelentau... right, we don't include unconfirmed information. So, why was that restored page of Boruto Uzumaki with Byakugan? I had removed that part of the page because it isn't confirmed.--Sharingan91 (talk) 07:44, May 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * Omni, as I said before, eyes with confirmed kekkei genkai are often called by their kekkei genkai names (ex. "Watch out for Itachi, he has the Sharingan." when Itachi isn't there, or the Neji picture above). My point is that Hagoromo's eyes weren't called Byakugan, he didn't activate them and instead asked his brother to do it, even in cases he could've done it himself (looking for the boulder, for example) and above all, it wouldn't make sense, simply because he's not the forefather of the Hyuga. • Seelentau 愛 議 10:25, May 23, 2016 (UTC)

Still, I insist .. All of these dojutsu need to actually activate before being called what they really are ... So, two titles with the name "Byakugan" would do the trick .. 1) Dojutsu, 2)Alien race's normal eyes.. Cause, that's what they are... They actually are normal eyes... What makes them different is, that they are not from Naruto's Earth .. The Byakugan Dojutsu was first activated after Kaguya ate the fruit, thus granting her the ability to mold chakra .. On the infoboxes the dojutsu is stated .. Not the eyes themselves... If it were the eyes, we should also state Naruto's fox-like eyes, frog eyes and his hybrid eyes .. See where I'm getting at ? SeraphAngel   11:14, May 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * DB4 says that Kaguya has byakugan before eating the God Fruit. The whole lore behind Ohtsutsuki's is that they plant god tree's on planets then eat the fruit. It's only logical that Kaguya's parents did the same, meaning Kaguya was born with her own chakra. Rewatch episode 460. Before eating the God Fruit, Kaguya was clearly using chakra. Here are the timestamps of when Kaguya uses jutsu before eating the God Fruit - @04:34, @14:55, @15:06, @17:55 (looks like Eight Trigrams Vacuum Palm), @18:26. --DC52 (talk) 19:35, May 23, 2016 (UTC)

@Seel, but then we need to apply that logic to every hyuga member... only give them byakugan if they showed veins. Infact we'd need to apply that logic to every clans kekkei-genkai. --DC52 (talk) 15:02, May 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * So? • Seelentau 愛 議 15:30, May 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * The whole "vein" argument is flawed. Veins only shown that the Byakugan is active, but it's still a Byakugan when not active. It doesn't cease to be a Byakugan. Do you think Ao also transplanted a Hyūga's veins to use the Byakugan? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:59, May 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * I think Omni just nailed it now. Let's just list the Byakugan.--Elve Talk Page 17:49, May 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * I never even used the vein argument: My point is that Hagoromo's eyes weren't called Byakugan, he didn't activate them and instead asked his brother to do it, even in cases he could've done it himself (looking for the boulder, for example) and above all, it wouldn't make sense, simply because he's not the forefather of the Hyuga. • Seelentau 愛 議 18:03, May 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * So Hagoromo had the Byakugan and just never wanted to use it. He just relied on his brother to do things that require the Byakugan because he was too lazy to do it himself. It couldn't just be an eye color thing. This is similar to Boruto's case. --Rai 水 (talk) 18:13, May 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yeah, he relied on his brother because activating the Byakugan to look for a rock is too much for the son of a Goddess. No, but seriously, it's exactly the same as with Boruto. And when in doubt, we usually wait. • Seelentau 愛 議 18:32, May 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * Didn't Hinata in some instance have Neji use his Byakugan? Maybe Hamura was just better with it/his was better.--Elve Talk Page 18:48, May 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's correct Elve. --Sajuuk 18:50, May 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * And Hinata as Hyuga used the abilities of the Byakugan so that example is iffy. Also, provide a source for that instance. I don't recall that ever happening between the two. --Rai 水 (talk) 18:56, May 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * As Rai said, that argument is flawed, because for it to work, Hagoromo having a Byakugan is prerequisite. Again, we are so deep in doubt, there is no harm in a trivia note stating that "Hagoromo's eyes resemble those of his brother's and the Hyuga clan. It is unknown if he had the Byakugan." or something along those lines. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:34, May 24, 2016 (UTC)\
 * @Seel, but DB4 says that Kaguya had the byakugan before eating the god fruit. Also iirc Momoshiki and Kinshiki referred to their eyes as byakugan. The byakugan did not begin with Hamura. Byakugan are an inherent trait of any Ohtsutsuki with chakra. I see no reason why Hagoromo's eyes would not be called byakugan. --DC52 (talk) 20:07, May 24, 2016 (UTC)

I see no reason why Hagoromo if he had the Byakugan wouldn't use it. And no where was it said for Hagoromo to have the Byakugan and if he didn't activate it. At least Momoshiki and Kinshiki mentioned their eyes being the Byakugan. Too many conflictions. Safe bet is to note it in the trivia. --Rai 水 (talk) 20:16, May 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * Because Hagoromo is no pure-blood Otsutsuki. And even is he was, there's still the possibility that he didn't inherit it. Same goes for all Hyuga, of course. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:20, May 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * Hmm, i see your point, perhaps it should be noted Hagoromo has a byakugan he cannot activate? --DC52 (talk) 20:25, May 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * That would add even more speculation to it. • Seelentau 愛 議 20:31, May 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * Not that has the Byakugan but that his eye resembles it. And state reasons to why it is not necessarily confirmed that he has the Byakugan. --Rai 水 (talk) 20:40, May 24, 2016 (UTC)
 * Perhaps because Hagoromo was simply bad at using the Byakugan? That seems more logical that throwing the concept of inheriting your clans kekkei-genkai out the window. --DC52 (talk) 00:39, May 25, 2016 (UTC)

That's a bunch of bull. Just trying to make excuses. You mean to tell me this guy, the som of a "Goddess" could have the potential to learn senjutsu or Sage Mode (whatever you preference), but can't use his Byakugan on the level of a mediocre Hinata in Part I. You guys are making eccuses and just want Hagoromo to have the Byakugan. --Rai 水 (talk) 01:10, May 25, 2016 (UTC)
 * That's what the anime depicts. It has always been like this Hinata and Neji have the potential for using nature transformation but they always seem to use Byakugan techniques for some reason. Hagoromo was shown to lean towards nature transformation and his brother Byakugan techniques. Hagoromo has Byakugan eyes in appearance but those are actually precursor of Sharingan instead. Why would one dojutsu get converted to another? Byakugan should transform into Tenseigan not Sharingan. Hyuga and moon Otsutsuki are Hamura lineages and this makes sense.--Mecha Naruto (talk) 04:13, May 25, 2016 (UTC)
 * Hagoromo awakening the Sharingan is yet another reason why it's highly unlikely that he has the Byakugan. • Seelentau 愛 議 08:06, May 25, 2016 (UTC)
 * Let's see next episode or maybe Studio Pierrot blog? If he were to have the Byakugan, that would make him a character in possession of all 'three great doujutsu'--Elve Talk Page 12:16, May 25, 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, that seems more likely than throwing a fundamental concept of Naruto out the window. If Hagoromo is not listed as having byakugan, then we will need to do huge revisions on kekkei-genkais across the wiki --DC52 (talk) 23:42, May 25, 2016 (UTC)
 * If Byakugan isn't the normal white eyes, why would Kishimoto note that he forgot to give Boruto it? He wouldn't of made that comment unless normal eyes = Byakugan.--Sarutobii2 (talk) 05:36, May 26, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, Boruto's eyes are more blue than Naruto. Someone said that in the Boruto movie. I think Byakugan should be distinguished by presence or absence of pupil. Hagoromo definitely had pupil but the thing is we don't know whether he has Byakugan for sure because he doesn't have that kekkei genkai activated plus he didn't show the eyes use.--Mecha Naruto (talk) 09:30, May 26, 2016 (UTC)

Young Hagoromo's voice actor
Because the infobox is protected to be edited, can someone add the voice actor of young Hagoromo that voiced for today's episode? His VA is Masayuki Katō. Thanks so much... — Shakhmoot  (Talk) 22:27, May 19, 2016 (UTC)

Affiliation
Infobox is locked. We should add in infobox "Land of Ancestors" and "Mount Myōboku". --Sharingan91 (talk) 06:10, May 20, 2016 (UTC)

Kekkei Genkai
So Why is Sharingan added but not Rinnegan?.....Beyonder (talk) 14:03, May 20, 2016 (UTC)BeyonderGodOmnipotent
 * Because His Rinnegan Is A Kekkei Mora For Some Reason (I Think Its Due To The Databook). Bob1200 (talk) 16:35, May 20, 2016 (UTC)
 * But the Rinnegan isn't in the infobox whatsoever anymore is the point. EDIT: never mind, it's been fixed since.--Elve Talk Page 18:04, May 20, 2016 (UTC)


 * In that case, shoudln't his Sharingan also be classified as Kekkei Mora?--RIkudo (talk) 18:23, May 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * Using the same logic used on his rinnegan, yes it should. --DC52 (talk) 19:40, May 23, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, his Rinnegan is labeled Kekkei Mora because he doesn't have the Kekkei Genkai icon in the databook. The Sharingan is anime-only and was revealed later than the databook, so there's no way it could've been taken into account there. So because the Rinnegan arguments/reasons can't be applied to the Sharingan, it should be added as a Kekkei Genkai. • Seelentau 愛 議 19:36, May 24, 2016 (UTC)

Jinchuriki Status
I was beginning to doubt he was ever a jinchuriki to the ten-tails, the events in the manga didn't add up. So I'll update his jinchuriki status to all nine TB instead of the ten-tails.Cloudtheavenger (talk) 14:21, May 26, 2016 (UTC)
 * He was jinchuriki of TT chakra from wich he made Nine TB, BZ implied that manga long time ago. Rage gtx (talk) 14:30, May 26, 2016 (UTC)
 * manga > anime. He's the Ten-Tails' jinchūriki: Simple as that.--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 14:32, May 26, 2016 (UTC)
 * Manga also says that they used SPCT not sealing againt TT(or Kaguya if you want) so nothing goes against manga here when manga it self is not consensual. Rage gtx (talk) 14:38, May 26, 2016 (UTC)
 * Berserker, that's pretty black and white thinking. That is one sign of a weak sense critical thinker. You need to learn to take things on a case to case basis. Who or what is BZ?Cloudtheavenger (talk) 14:45, May 26, 2016 (UTC)
 * BZ = Black Zetsu. Anyway, we should not ignore what the anime said, despite the assertions of some users on this wiki. Anime said he was jinchuriki of the separated tailed beasts, not the TT, so we acknowledge it, not ignore it because a few people are in denial. --Sajuuk 14:50, May 26, 2016 (UTC)
 * There's "Trivia" for such cases; No need to harass articles by adding contradicting information just 'cause it was animated and the manga is not; Adding a layer of "deduction" is just asking for it to be reverted due to cases of "speculation".--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 14:54, May 26, 2016 (UTC)
 * I took out the ":" because this is going to be a long discussion.Cloudtheavenger (talk) 14:56, May 26, 2016 (UTC)
 * DB4 and manga said he was the Ten Tails Jinchuriki, so being Jinchuriki of the 9 seperate beasts is trivia worthy at best. QuakingStar (talk) 14:56, May 26, 2016 (UTC)
 * @Cloudtheavenger: Do not remove indentation markup from talkpage discussions. --Sajuuk 14:58, May 26, 2016 (UTC)

Mangekyō Sharingan
I think I should bring out the issue if Hagoromo's marking on the forehead should be regarded as his MS or not. While there are facts implying it's a one (no sign of MS in Hagoromo's actual eyes, yet marking appearing at the same time as the Rinnegan and then Hagoromo's statement about awakening both MS and Rinnegan), there's no case of a such MS manifestation before, so it's actually a very inconsistent issue. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 14:48, May 26, 2016 (UTC)
 * We did not add Hagaromo as Byakugan user despite his white eyes yet you want add his marking as MS despite him awakening SPS at same time(and markings being affiliated to Senjutsu in general), MS being eye pattern to forhead one and it's being red rinnegan patterns not some MS thingy? Rage gtx (talk) 14:57, May 26, 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, given that Hagoromo directly says "I awakened by Mangekyo Sharingan" when he addresses Kaguya after reviving Hamura, it seems a bit silly not to mention it as "Presumed2, given we don't see it. Or how else would he have Susanoo? --Sajuuk 15:00, May 26, 2016 (UTC)
 * As if Madara needed MS to use his Susanoo. Rage gtx (talk) 15:02, May 26, 2016 (UTC)
 * Nobody has been seen using Susanoo without having awakened the Mangekyo. He doesn't "need" to specifically "use" MS to use Susanoo, but he needs to have "awakened" it to get access. Or are you suggesting Susanoo is just a plain Sharingan technique available to anyone who just has Sharingan and hasn't awakened MS? :D --Sajuuk 15:04, May 26, 2016 (UTC)
 * I think some times people bother for naught :/--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 15:04, May 26, 2016 (UTC)

@Sajuuk no i am suggesting that he awakened MS but it instantly turned into Rinnegan and he that's how he dot his Susanoo, more so we know presumble pattern of Hagoromo MS it should be same as Indra's(Uzumaki clan simbol pattern) given he had Hagoromo's pure Yin chakra. Rage gtx (talk) 15:07, May 26, 2016 (UTC)

You only need to awaken the tech in both MS eyes to awaken Susanoo. Then you can use it with Rinnegan, in Normal Sharingan State, or even without eyes. QuakingStar (talk) 15:08, May 26, 2016 (UTC)


 * Guys, actually, I don't question Hagoromo really awakening MS, there's already no doubt of it, I only question the possibility of the forehead marking being its manifestation. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 15:10, May 26, 2016 (UTC)

Considering that Madara, Obito and Naruto did not gain that Red marking, I don't think that marking had anything to do with SPSM or Senjutsu. QuakingStar (talk) 15:12, May 26, 2016 (UTC)

As i mentioned earlier if we cannot tell if white eyes of Hagoromo are Byakugan how can we tell that Marking on Forhead is Eye Pattern, disregarding obvious absurdity of that, and if we were state it, it still was not stated or implied by any means so just Fanon. Rage gtx (talk) 15:18, May 26, 2016 (UTC)


 * Awakening both Mangekyō Sharingan is a requirement for Susanoo, which lends credence to the idea that he just skipped the Mangekyō stage and went straight to Rinnegan because of his chakra. Which would mean the marking on his forehead is either a third Mangkeyō or something else entirely.--BeyondRed (talk) 15:27, May 26, 2016 (UTC)
 * Exactly if Marking was Mangekyō then he still lacks second one, if we disregard his two eyes(his only eyes for the note) as organs where he awakened MS(never even Dojutsu manifested anywhere outside of eye, also for the note). Rage gtx (talk) 15:42, May 26, 2016 (UTC)

Hagoromo said he awakened the rinnegan and mangekyou sharingan, right then he got the rinnegan and the red marking on his forehead. The marking on Hagoromo's forehead even looks like a Mangekyou. I see no reason why we should not say that it's seemingly Hagoromos mangekyou. In the same fashion as Indras mangekyou. --DC52 (talk) 02:12, May 27, 2016 (UTC)
 * Needing MS in both eyes for Susanoo contradicts that single marking being a MS. That also not being an actual eye also helps. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:22, May 27, 2016 (UTC)
 * ^Given what we were told regarding the awakening of Susanoo, Hagoromo's MS being the mark on his forehead is baseless speculation. He was literally able to awaken the Sharingan with three tomoe from the beginning. Him awakening the MS and Rinnegan in both eyes basically instantaneously is just as unusual and more likely (not to mention, it would be kind of silly for a marking that looks exactly like Momoshiki's initial red Rinnegan to be an MS, which would potentially introduce a stupid debate if whether or not Momoshiki's red hand doujutsu is really a Rinnegan or MS). 04:20, May 27, 2016 (UTC)

Sage Mode?
Given he's had training in Mount Myobokuzan and can seemingly balance the natural energy with his own chakra, shouldn't Hagoromo be listed as a Sage Mode user?--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 21:50, May 26, 2016 (UTC)
 * Did you see him use it? No? Then - no.--BerserkerPhantom (talk) 22:28, May 26, 2016 (UTC)
 * I think he did. Remember that red mark that formed on his forehead after his Rinnegan awoke? That could be Hagoromo's Sage Mode marking.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 23:02, May 26, 2016 (UTC)
 * Would have showed up when he actually used senjutsu in Mount Myoboku, destroying that rock. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:11, May 26, 2016 (UTC)