Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-26636534-20180830184727/@comment-34194151-20190112103130

Ninja Of War wrote:

@Ultima

'''Yeah, Itachi using genjutsu on Naruto back then is not as impressive as many make it out to be. Kabuto's temple of Nirvana is more impressive, yet it doesn't get the same treatment. ''' @Combat

'''Genjutsu is all about chakra control. Doesn't matter how much chakra you have, if your chakra is disturbed by genjutsu, you need to "reset" it. That version of Naruto not being able to do it, doesn't make Itachi legendary.''' @Ninja of War

Okay, look, I apologize that I lost my cool.

I'll start from the top and I have quoted your origninal statement, and why I believe it's flawed.

You said that Temple of Nirvana is more impressive. I disagree. He caught fodders (a large amount, but I already proved Itachi easily replicates that feat because in the Viz translation of Chapter 540, Shikaku and Ao INSTINCTIVELY thought Itachi was controlling a large part of the alliance just based on their experiences). Kabuto's Nirvana genjutsu is literal trash compared to Itachi, whose genjutsu CANNOT BE DETECTED BY SENSORS!!!. Karin isn't sensing his genjutsu. Tobirama isn't. Minato isn't. Name any sensor you know. None of them are outdoing Ao+ the entire sensor division. When Itachi uses genjutsu, sharingan users struggle. The second Hebi Sasuke entered the uchiha hideout and made eye contact, he was already in genjutsu. And guess what. Itachi had to TELL HIM AND RELEASE the genjutsu FOR HIM. There is a reason why Obito clearly stated Sasuke didn't see through a single one of Itachi's illusions, and that includes Tsykuyomi.

Killer Bee, a Perfect Jin, had to be TOLD by Itachi that he was in genjutsu. Itachi made it obvious when he intentionally made the illusionary itachi turn into crows. That was a very subtle genjutsu. All he did was manipulate Bee's sense of sight and touch very so slightly to confuse him about where the real ITachi actually was after landing on the ground and tricked him into grabbing a faux Itachi. Killer Bee released his tentacle for real, as we see it even after Gyuki breaks him out and there is a HOLE in the ground. Yet Gyuki was only able to release Bee after Itachi told them BOTH that Bee was in genjutsu, and they still barely made it in time to block shurikens. If Itachi had killer intent, he wouldn't have even gave Bee the obvious hints. Bee was a sitting duck and literally lost to Itachi on the first move. Gyuki is literally experienced with genjutsu yet he could not detect that his host was under genjutsu lmao...

Itachi vs Deidara and Oro also speak for themselves. Kabuto's genjutsu isn't impressive at all compared to Itachi, and that is on all accounts, until Kabuto gains SM.

Kabuto's Nirvana was immediately sensed by all the competent shinobi involved. Part one naruto wasn't at all competent as he wasn't able to attempt genjutsu Kai in the first place. What proof is there that he even knew how to break genjutsu back then? Based on the information I know of, He only was taught how to break genjutsu during the timeskip.

Shikamaru casually broke out. Sakura broke out. Guy broke out. Kakashi broke out without his sharingan active. He caught part one naruto who is <<<<<< Early shippuden naruto in both experience and chakra control.

Your second statement is unsupported by the manga. Genjutsu dissipation requires a a hand seal to be used, and all hand seals are used to manipulate chakra AFTER it is moulded. It's ninjutsu, not taijutsu, so No getting around it. Jiraiya clearly stated that Naruto must BREAK Itachi's control and disturb his chakra flow in order to bring it to a stop. We clearly see that partner method is based on the same principle. In part one, Sakura had to weave signs, mould chakra for genjutsu kai, manipulate it, then INSERT it into naruto to break him out of Nirvana by touching him. Same thing with Chiyo and Sakura in part two. Same principle with kabuto's sound genjutsu. Itachi and Sasuke used genjutsu:sharingan to insert a powerful surge of chakra into each other in order to forcibly release Kabuto's control over their chakra networks by establishing control with their own genjutsu, and brought their respective chakra flows to a stop. The more chakra you put into genjutsu Kai, and the better your chakra control, the better the chance you can release someone from genjutsu. We have seen that even perfect jinchuriki like Yagura couldn't break out because apparently their genjutsu kai wasn't good enough despite bijuu partner method.

Casting genjutsu itself is no different. Genjutsu is STATED to be a TYPE of NINJUTSU by Jiraiya himself. And Ebisu's diagram in Part One has nothing to indicate that the mechanics of casting ninjutsu and genjtusu are different. Genjutsu requires incredible chakra control to be used yes, because mastering yin release is incredibly difficult but you need the raw materials to be able to use genjutsu in the first place. Tsunade is a medic with expert chakra control yet she can't use genjutsu. Jiraiya can't use genjutsu either despite his incredible chakra control. By your logic no one can break Itachi's genjutsu at all unless they themselves have the chakra control to be a genjutsu type because he clearly has superior chakra control to the people who can't make genjutsu by virtue of being able to make a genjutsu in the first place. That obviously isn't how it works.

Breaking genjutsu is a battle of your chakra control for genjutsu Kai+ amount of chakra moulded for it vs the Yin release chakra control of Itachi plus the amount of chakra he moulded for the genjutsu. It's a lot more complex than you seem to be saying it is. Naruto already showed that his massive stamina allowed him to summon gamabunta despite the fact that his chakra control was trash for complicated hand seal pattterns (with his base reserves he at best summoned a premature small frog). He literally needed kyuubi levels chakra to make up for his weak chakra control. Same idea applies here. His chakra control may not be the best, but genjutsu kai is only one handseal and he can mould plenty of chakra for it, he has uzumaki reserves. Itachi being at thirty percent means he didn't put much chakra into that version of ephemeral, but he compensated for it with his own insane chakra control in yin release. That's why it's objectively a feat, both characters had their weaknesses/handicaps yet Itachi still won the battle easily, and thus it adds to why he is legendary. Put him at 100 percent, and 90 percent of the verse isn't breaking out of ephemeral.

In order to make a half decent genjutsu, Jiraiya probably would need to mould all of his chakra reserves to make up the difference for his Yin release chakra control issue, so it isn't practical. Naruto himself mastered Henge jutsu despite general problems with chakra control. It only requires one handsign and Ebisu SHOWED us that he can perfectly manipulate the 20 percent of his chakra required for it. There are also genetic variables involved. Kakashi's chakra control is just fine and he has earth and water natures, but he isn't making mokuton anytime soon because he doesn't have the genes necessary to combine them and create the wood nature transformation.

Furthermore, I feel people generally don't appreciate just how intelligent ITachi is. In his debut, he literally planned FOUR moves ahead and near instantly grasped the situation in front of him. He weaved all his techniques and then just stood there and adjusted accordingly. If he wanted to he could have thrown the shuriken and then weave more signs while Kakashi was backing away (he is that much faster than kakashi in jutsu execution), but he chose not to. Each action he took when weaving signs in his robe had a meaning to it and was designed to optimize the success of his win condition. Shuriken as a ruse, to cover the tracks of his water style to push Kakashi on the backfoot. Itachi and Kakashi both know of each other because they spent time together in Anbu. Itachi knows about Kakashi's clone feinting. Even Choji's dad knew that Kakashi's MO is : break line of sight, clone feint, then attack from below or behind. Do you think it was a coincidence that Itachi showed no surprise at all when he stabbed Kakashi and it turned out to be a water clone? It's not. He knew what Kakashi's gameplan was and that's why he planned his clone feint in advance (clone feinting counters clone feinting), but he wasn't sure where the real kakashi would attack him from. But it didn't matter, he used his superior clone feinting skill to dispatch the faux Kakashi easily while leaving an exploding clone behind as bait for the real kakashi to attack while he was already a safe distance away. You can clearly see that Kakashi's plan was to attack Itachi's feet. You can see it on panel. Itachi could have detonated his clone right then and there, and it would have killed Kakashi and Kurenai right then and there. But he purposely waited and delayed it, because his goal wasn't to kill them, giving Kakashi the chance to correct things. He showed that he could completely control the fight, paint himself as a villain, and even lead them to a win condition, all while jobbing at the same time. the only reason Itachi later ordered Kisame to kill them is because Kakashi released intel that was dangerous to Akatsuki at the time, and Itachi couldn't just ignore that in front of Kisame. He wasted his stamina with tsykuyomi on purpose and purposely chose not to kill Kakashi, but he still needed to incapacitate so as to not blow his cover. With his dwindling reserves, he was easily able to convince Kisame that they couldn't rush to capture naruto from Jiraiya and that they could come back later, and even with that, Kisame remained unconvinced, asking why a retreat was necessary. And in the official translation, Itachi hyped up Jiraiya to be able to defeat the entire Akatsuki, when in reality both him and Kisame could solo one v one. Itachi accomplished his mission that day. Warned konoha that akatsuki was making it's move, reminded Sasuke to get stronger, and purposely failed Nagato's orders to capture to the kyuubi, while having a pact with Obito that prevented Pain from going to konoha himself. IF Itachi brought Pain with him to Konoha, what would have happened???? lmao. Itachi made excuses for why they couldn't capture the nine tails ahead of time and just keep him captured until he was ready to be sealed, and he had Obito focus on the other bijuu in the meantime until the clock ran out. Understanding the backstory of Itachi's actions allows us to better understand just how good he is, and why we haven't seen his full potential in battle yet, which is why there is a disconnect in this thread.

Even Kakashi stated that what Itachi showed there was nothing LMAO, and that was without knowledge on ANY of his MS techniques (Kakashi clearly only knew about MS genjutsu in general, if he actually knew about Tsykuyomi then he would have already known that looking in Itachi's eyes is a big no- no). He was basing it on what Itachi showed during their time as Anbu. So basically, a jobbing Itachi can perfectly plan 4 moves in advance? Yikes. It was even stated during the Sasuke fight that he calculated for all of Sasuke's contingencies all in a fight where he was holding back and dying of a terminal illness.

Yet, in this thread we have people citing drawbacks from 30 percent Itachi. Itachi was nerfed in that fight in so many ways. No mega handseal speed. No calculated uses of ninjutsu/shuriken feints. No clone feints. Even Kakashi said SOMETHING WASN'T RIGHT.

In all his other fights, Itachi showed the ability to make and execute strategies to end the fight from the beginning. Kimimaro is nowhere near that level. Orochimaru is experienced but he isn't a genius in battle, his genius is in scientific research. Konan is probably the best intellectual combat tactician in the group, but no offense she doesn't even touch Itachi in intellect. She opted for a sucicide attack against Tobi when a paper clone could have been used instead. Also put all her eggs in one basket with the 600 billion paper bombs. And her arsenal is essentially useless against Itachi's katon variants. IF Obito wasn't being stupid he would have used his katon to get rid of her papers like Jiraiya did instead of underestimating her.

@JamesSenpai

MEGA FACE PAlM -_-. CHAPTER 90. Ebisu CLEARLY tells you that genjutsu and ninjutsu are increased by the AMOUNT of chakra put in. It's clearly shown in the diagram. The more chakra moulded, and the more chakra succesfully MANIPULATED by handsigns, the BIGGER THE EXPENDITURE. No offense, but I'm getting really sick and tired of explaining this. Itachi also clearly explained that his 30 percent clone is limited in STRENGTH AND in the jutsu he could use in Chapter 260 pg 16. He couldn't even use any MS techniques at all, not enough chakra available to even make the minimum benchmark for creating them in the first place. Furthermore, it's clearly stated that naruto can keep up with sasuke and sakura because his insane STAMINA allows him to make potent techniques. He sucked at the basic clone jutsu, yet he can spam more shadow clones then kakashi as a kid. His chakra control issue was mostly in handsigns, as he even quickly picked up on the water walking exercise. Kage bunshin is a harder clone technique than basic clones but he has an easier time doing it because it only requires one handseal. Naruto in base has more chakra than Jiraiya yet because of his poor control with handsigns he couldn't summon a big frog. Adding in kyuubi chakra compensated for his chakra control well enough to the point he could summon gamabunta. Yet that same Jiraiya who has way less chakra than naruto+kyuubi can summon gamabunta with ease. Chakra control AND chakra reserves BOTH factor into genjutsu/ninjutsu, end of story. Itachi is at thirty percent and thus ephemeral is weaker because he can't mould more chakra for it. Even with that handicap, he was shown to be simultaneously fighting Kakashi while keeping Naruto in ephemeral, and Chiyo and Sakura HAD to step in to break naruto free.

But I commend you on a well thought analysis of how Itachi matches up with these three opponents and your comments on his stamina. The reason he matched Sasuke in stamina is because he used his techniques more intelligently and paced himself. Sasuke literally burnt himself out and didn't get anything done, and basically relied on Kirin to bail him out.

Itachi knows all about partner method, and some users seem to think that he doesn't have ways around it. He does. His shuriken techniques were calculated to be unavoidable by Kabuto because of his skillful use of blindspots.

His clone feints are also unavoidable for these 3 oppponets. Itachi created and substituted with a clone during a shuriken clash and then reappeared, jumped, and safely threw 3 kunai at sasuke from a safe distance away, and Sasuke didn't notice this at all until it was already happening. Sasuke was grappling a CLONE. People just don't understand... If that was an exploding clone Sasuke was a dead man right then and there. Itachi's ability to spawn clones where he wants is a deadly tool in his arsenal, and he already shows the ability to combo his clone feints with other attacks, increasing the chance that his blindside attack will lead to the successful application of Totsuka or Amaterasu.

Tell me how EMS Sasuke and Kabuto are watching the REAL Itachi deactivating susano'o and running toward Kabuto, yet they don't notice him: making a crow clone. moving to a hiding spot.crow clone explodes, Itachi gets a free attack from behind.

No one in the manga has seen this guy's clone formations. No one supporting Team Orochimaru has explained how they deal with it.