Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-34938099-20180728104553/@comment-34194151-20180730044522

@Killman

After reading your post, I don't think we are on the same page on the workings of tsukyomi, so I will present my logic on it and hope you read all of this and address it. Genjutsu works by manipulating the user's senses to varying degrees by manipulating the chakra in their brain. Most genjutsu can be broken before any significant traumatic experience can be induced, because in most cases the genjutsu time corresponds to the same amount of time the real world. Therefore, skilled victims can break it within seconds of realizing it by using a method of Kai.

Tsyukyomi differs because unless it's stated, we don't know the time correspondence between the passage of time the victim experiences compared to the actual time passing in the real world. If itachi makes sasuke perceive 5 minutes of torture passing, then for all we know only a minute has passed in the real world. Using some basic math, that tsyukyomi would have a time dilation factor resulting in 1 real world second corresponding to the user perceiving 5 seconds passing. So, no the time dilation matters a ton. For all we know, this was the tsukyomi sasuke beat and that is far easier to break then a 1 real world second to 72 percieved hours. Sure, he beat the tsyukomi, not downplaying that, but there is no proof it wasn't watered down, and there is more evidence that itachi watered it down this time. Itachi was stated to be able to freely manipulate time, so there is no proof he is limited to 24 or 72 hours (in the victim's perception) to 1 second in the real world. The space/matter manipulation doesn't matter as much, as long as he makes the illusion threatening and painful. If itachi used a time dilation like he did against kakahsi, of 1 second in the real world corresponding to 72 hours of percieved time by the victim, that genjutsu is far harder to break because you literally have a fraction of a second to use kai and most people's  body can't react  to dispel the chakra manipulation because one second passing in the real world isn't enough to use Genjutsu: Kai for most people. Thats the power of tsyukyomi, with significant time dilation the damage is maximized in a fraction of a second, leaving no almost no time for the victim to kai or have a partner dispel the genjutsu. The only reason some ninja have a shot is because ninja in the naruto world have improved reaction times, so if you have a sharingan and itachi blood, and he uses a high powered tsyukyomi, you literally have a fraction of a second in the REAL world to stop his manipulation of your chakra, if not a  24 hours occur for your mind while  a second passes for your actual body in the real world makes your brain is toast, unless you have a strong mind augmented by sharingan plus itachi's blood, but even then, its not a guarantee you will survive the hit. This is my current understanding-Tsukyomi is simply Itachi's MS genjutsu with the option of varied levels of time dilation.

He evaded amaterasu sure, which Itachi was gonna extinguish off of him anyway, as he did in the canon. Sasuke did it legimitately, so props to him, still doesn't matter because Itachi wasn't actually gonna kill him with it.

Also, Sasuke wouldn't notice the watered down tsyukuyomi for a few reasons. One, he didn't even notice Itachi was throwing away the whole fight, Obito had to spoonfeed him that information for him to get that itachi was holding back. He never understood itachi's intentions, and was clearly deceived until tobi, hiruzen, danzo, and itachi himself explained everything. So he obviously didn't have any method of telling if itachi was holding back. He wanted to die at sasuke's hand, making him believe he had defeated him and thwarted itachi's attempts to steal his eyes. He has no reason to go full force and put him in a coma this time, the first time he did it was because he wanted sasuke to hate him more, as sasuke had lost sight of his goal and had not become remotely strong enough to kill him. He wanted sasuke to become a stronger ninja through his hatred for itachi. In part 2, itachi was rapdily dying from his illness, so it was now or never, so he decided to test sasuke's abilties while resolving to die at his hand. This was all explained in the canon. Secondly, even with sasuke's prior experience he has no way to know if itachi is holding back or not, because while he is in the genjutsu itachi has a lot of control over his mind, and your mind can't tell real time from genjutsu time because unless Itachi tells us, we don't know how time is being manipulated as I said before. The victim of tsukyomi thinks time is passing normally. They can try and break it but they either need sufficient time to or they need good reactions for their body to actually use Kai in time.

@LoneNinja, the power of subsitution is its deception element. I have no doubt that Obito can keep up with itachi in speed, but sage mode kabuto failed to sense Itachi's subsitutions and was surprised by the crows each time. Subsitution also seems to be more advanced then a simple shunshin, because the user can control the location in which they appear to an extent. I don't think subsitttion can be directly equated to body flicker because Orochimaru's body replacement technique is said to be linked to shunshin, yet all he does is spit a new body out of the old one. Also ITachi was ourighted stabbed in the chest by the sword, yet reappeared behind kabuto, so I think the mechanics are definitely more complicated than shunshin