Talk:Outer Path — Samsara of Heavenly Life Technique

Kinjutsu?
If this jutsu can bring people back from the dead, doesn't that mean it's a Kinjutsu?--Kagimizu-Seeya 'round~ 15:44, 29 May 2009 (UTC)


 * good point, but it uses the rinnegan which is a dojutsu and i'm not sure if that makes this jutsu not a kinjutsu--24.189.153.102 (talk) 17:52, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


 * What makes it a kinjutsu, is it costs nagato his life. It does extreme harm to the user. 74.236.92.133 (talk) 20:46, 1 June 2009 (UTC)


 * I'd say it isn't a kinjutsu until it's called a kinjutsu. That said, I don't really think bringing people back from the dead in a positive way would be considered a kinjutsu. It's not like Nagato brings them back to fight for him. Also, Konan's words imply that with more chakra, Nagato would have survived this technique. That means it doesn't take the user's life per definition, also not making it a kinjutsu. --ShounenSuki (talk 20:54, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

IT'S A KINJUTSU AS IT DEFIES THE LAWS OF NATURE!!!END OF DISCUSSION!188.27.98.180 (talk) 10:04, October 27, 2009 (UTC)
 * Under that definition, every jutsu is a kinjutsu. ~SnapperTo 16:23, October 27, 2009 (UTC)

Kinjutsu (禁術; Literally meaning "Forbidden Techniques") are techniques that have been banned from being taught or used. This ban could have been put in place for any number of reasons, but kinjutsu can generally be put in either of two categories:


 * 1. Techniques that do extreme harm to oneself (e.g. the Multiple Shadow Clone Technique, which will bring almost any user to the brink of death by mere use).
 * 2. Techniques that violate the Laws of Nature (e.g. the Summoning: Impure World Resurrection, which resurrects the dead with a human sacrifice). =>Outer Path: Samsara of Heavenly Life Technique(freakin' long name) is a kinjutstu.188.27.98.124 (talk) 10:42, May 7, 2010 (UTC)

No, Kinjutsu are labeled as such by Kage or Village leaders. Nobody ever labeled the Rinne Tensei jutsu as Kinjutsu, though it is a Kekkei Genkai. Like how Tsunade LABELED Rasen Shuriken officially a Kinjutsu, or how Hashirama labeled Kage Bunshin a Kinjutsu, or how Tobirama labeled Edo Tensei a Kinjutsu. She LABELED IT. Meaning it has to be Labeled as such by a Kage or Village leader. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 21:53, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

And how the hell are you going to tell ShounenSuki "end of discussion!"? I can guarantee he knows more about Naruto than you and he is this wiki's Official Translator. He owns all the databooks and fan books. I'm pretty sure he knows whats what around here, watch who you run your mouth to. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 21:55, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Why do you bother replying to a year-old discussion that people simply let die because it was pointless to keep it going? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:00, November 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * Edit conflict refused to let me remove this... fail.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 22:01, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Noted

 * Shud it be noted that Nagato's hair turned white after the use of this technique??AlienGamer | Talk 17:02, 29 May 2009 (UTC)


 * I noticed that aswell, but we don't know if that was just the cleaners that poked around the hair a little too much.. Unless! ~checks raws~ No, bleachy there too. Mmmmwell anyways, it's in black and white, he could have been blondified (I love that expression) aswell. Hakinu talk 17:35, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Time frame
I think that the fact that this technique can only bring back people after a short period of time should be mentioned. I have two things, that I think is proof that there's a time limit on this technique: Nagato said himself, that there's still time. Why would he say that if he could resurrect the people back any time he wanted? Also, what about Yahiko, he could have used this technique to resurrect him, but he didn't.

There isn't a time limit. The only time limit mentioned was how long Nagato has left before he would die which coincides with Konan's remark about how Nagato would die if he used Rinne Tensei with his chakra levels at the time. Remember he was meant to bring back Madara, who was likely dead way longer than Yahiko.

About why he didn't bring back Yahiko, thats similar to asking "why weren't more summons around to cover every single blindspot before Nagato was hit with Susano'o" or "why didn't Nagato use Shinra Tensei on Naruto immediately after grabbing his soul". PnJ, or whatever, but that's what it probably is. But I don't see the logic in giving Rinne Tensei a limit, on fanon grounds, that it doesn't actually have. I propose that the 'limit' thing should really be removed. --Jingo12 (talk) 05:22, November 3, 2011 (UTC)

Jiraiya?
Kakashi was brought back to life but he wasn't killed by the God Realm. Maybe it's possible that Jiraiya might have been revived??


 * people kakashi did die by pain, he had a bloody nail shot into his skull (in the chapter were he dies it shows him to weak to dodge the nail because of over use of chakra)Fawcettp (talk) 04:17, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure Kakshi died of using the Mongekyo Sharingan to warp the nail somewhere. Cuz God realm then said saomething about Kakashi using that power on the nail.

Kakashi died of chakra overuse, first he used Kamui to warp the nail Deva Path threw at him, and then to warp the missile the other Pain aimed at Choji. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 11:46, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Um no, Kakashi used Mongekyo Sharingan to warp the missile that was aimed at Choji. Then he was hit by the nail.

Read the chapters again. Kakashi appears to die, then we learn he warped the nail, and then he warps the missile. He dies after warping the missile, from chakra overuse. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:13, July 28, 2011 (UTC)

Life Transfer Technique
Shouldn't this technique be classified as a Life Transfer Technique? It resurrects people. Yatanogarasu 1:33, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * That's actually a good question. Life transfer techniques usually trade one person's life for the life of another person. Since it is hinted that under other circumstances, Nagato could have survived this technique, it might not qualify as a life transfer technique. --ShounenSuki (talk 09:09, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, like you said, "usually". But that would also mean sometimes it doesn't have to cost a life to do so. Example, Chiyo's One's Own Life Reincarnation doesn't require her entire life if it's only a partial transfer, and Naruto also gave some of his contribution to the technique, and he didn't die. Yatanogarasu 15:58, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, what if the souls that came out of the King of Hell were the lives that had to be "transferred" to resurrect the dead? Or to put it in another way, Nagato is transferring a little bit of his own life for each life he brings back. Yatanogarasu 16:04, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * the souls that came from the King of Hell were obviously the souls of the people that were resurrected. From Konan's words, we can deduct that all Nagato is giving up for this technique is his chakra. He only died because he had too little of it. Really, we can only be sure what it is until it is stated in either the manga or the databooks. --ShounenSuki (talk 23:30, 4 June 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you think that the people he can revive depends on his chakra levels? Nagato says, "There's still time to save those I killed when I came to Konoha." (Chapter 449)

Mention that...
Madara said that this technique was supposed to be for him (for Madara) according to chapter 453 - MadaraU (talk) 17:52, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Possible Yang Release?
Alright, we know that Yang Release is the ability to use life energy. We know that the Rinnegan gives one use of Yang Release, and this technique can't be considered a Tensei Ninjutsu, because it doesn't trade Nagato's life for the lives of another. Since we know it is reviving the dead and the Yang Release has the ability to "breathe life into form", wouldn't it be better to classify it as Yang Release? ---Ten Tailed Fox talk page 20:34, November 2, 2010 (UTC)


 * good question. is it yang release or not? possibly. I can't say. can someone else answer this and rectify this tech with the new info of yang release we got?


 * I suppose it would but then it'd become speculation based on an assumption no?--Cerez365 (talk) 09:31, December 31, 2010 (UTC)


 * I've made my decision. I think we should stick with a yang style thing because it does have something to do with life giving energy.
 * Understood sir!--Cerez365 (talk) 10:16, December 31, 2010 (UTC)

I would have to agree that it resembles the yang release, since it is bring life back into a already present object (the body) this is consistent with information provided in the Manga.--Alastar 89 (talk) 10:42, December 31, 2010 (UTC)

...Uh.. ok. so it was sarcasm :P. but cerez, this tech and chiyo's tech transfers life force energy. This has to be yang release. can you give a reason??

It is speculative to say so. That's all the reason necessary to keep Yang Release from being added. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:32, December 31, 2010 (UTC)

Rinne Tensei proof
Madara hinted at Nagato being able to bring him back with The Rinne tensei. Meaning there is no time limit. It is hinted to rely on the chakra level of the person and mastery of the Rinnegan. Nagato was nearly dead when he brought back Konoha, Shizune and Kakashi, there for he did not have enough chakra to bring back Jiraiya. Someone needs to revise the info on the technique. Tobi, and Madara both stated Nagato could of used the technique on either of them. So there is no time limit. Nagato just needs enough chakra and a good enough mastery of the Rinnegan. I believe the debilatation from the gedo mazo made him weaker and he could not use the rinne tensei like he should. Proven by how much stronger and more powerful he became when he was restored to his prime. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 21:10, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

I also believe it CANNOT bring back people who have died of natural causes's, suicide, or accidents as it would make sense that way, being he could not bring back Yahiko because he committed suicide. Only those who have been killed and murdered and things of that such can be brought back from what I see.ItachiWasAHero (talk) 21:37, November 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * How do you know Madara was killed?--Deva 27 21:40, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Or maybe he couldn't bring back Yahiko because he had yet master the technique to bring back a specific individual, or maybe there are other requirements for this technique to work we don't know of. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:45, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Yahiko commited suicide, therefor he was not able to be brought back. Everyone thats ever been brought back with it as shown, were killed. It is obvious if Madara thinks he was brought back by it, and the fact he had Hashirama's DNA integrated in him, he was effectively immortal and cannot die by natural cause's, Meaning he was killed. Its called investigating my dear friend. I read through the manga and the wiki. Its obvious now. But yeah maybe it was because he hadn't mastered the technique yet either. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 21:47, November 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * That sounds like a lot of assumptions to me... If I had to say, I'd say people that "pass on" the the afterlife cannot be brought back. Jiraiya felt as though he had done what he could in the end and maybe Yahiko entrusted everything to Nagato but we just don't know so we can't say that.--Cerez365™Hyūga Symbol.svg 21:53, November 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * I'm sure the explanation for that fallacy is somewhere in wikipedia, but I don't feel like actually looking for it. You're taking one shared characteristic and assuming it to be a requirement. What you're doing is called speculation, nothing more. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:00, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, you are correct in that is speculation, but to say otherwise is speculation too. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 22:05, November 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * In regards to Jiraiya, everyone seems to be neglecting the fact that there has already been a definitive reason given establishing why he cannot be resurrected. As Kabuto clearly states in chapter 520, Jiraiya's body lies so deep below the ocean it cannot be retrieved, so regardless of whether or not his soul can be returned is irrelevant without means to escape from those sorts of depths. By the time Nagato had his change of heart, after conversing with Naruto, Jiraiya's resurrection had already become an impossibility anyway. Blackstar1 (talk) 22:11, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

It was an imposibility because of the depths and the fact Nagato DID NOT HAVE ENOUGH CHAKRA. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 22:14, November 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * (edit conflict 2x) I don't see how saying that being dead is a requirement for being resurrected is speculation. Other than that, I think the only possible other requirement is that the body should still be around for the soul to inhabit. I don't see how this technique would work if someone was killed by Dust Release techniques. About Jiraiya, it could also have to do with the range of the technique, not just chakra requirements. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:17, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

(E/C)I'm sorry that this is going off-point, but what does the location of Jiraiya's body have to do with this technique? Edo Tensei requires DNA which apparently Kabuto could not get from the battlefield where Jiraiya faced Pain or and couldn't get to his body. But nowhere does it even hint at the fact that Nagato could not have used this technique to revive Jiraiya only to have him die again from probable drowning (if something hasn't eater him by now). That was the whole purpose that Tsunade served during the invasion of Pain.--Cerez365™ 22:20, November 5, 2011 (UTC)
 * He said he could still revive the people he killed in Konoha. If the technique simply revived people indiscriminately, people dying elsewhere would also be resurrected. If someone simply had died at the same time in any other village, they'd have been resurrected as well. The time thing was added because in the manga Nagato said "there's still time", though I don't know if that's what it said in the raw. Maybe reviving someone who is long-dead takes more chakra because they're not a "fresh death". Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:24, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

There's no limit implied, aside from chakra. The context was that Nagato could only revive those in Konoha - him having only time for that - because he was dying as signified by his grey hair. This coincides with Konan's thoughts about the fact Nagato would die if he used Rinne Tensei with his current chakra levels. Nagato wouldn't be able to bring back Jiraiya if Nagato hismelf died.

Factually we know that Rinne Tensei brings back dead people, nothing more; nothing less. If there's a limit then it has yet to be shown. The Yahiko and Jiraiya parts don't imply a limit: its a plot hole, really. Probably intentional, I'd say, as Rinne Tensei is possibly going to appear again. Akin to why the Rinnegan was always cut short in the past; its appeared again and will be showing more seemingly.

And yet again this discussion keeps growing without ever actually going anywhere. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:33, November 20, 2011 (UTC)

Question
In order for one to be summoned, their body must be available, right?... It would explain why Jiraiya was not resurrected since his body is the way down a lake... D!ABLO-32 (talk) 10:30, June 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe. Or maybe because he was killed before Pain's invasion — ¤ U LTIMATE S UPREME ¤ (T@lk) 10:51, June 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * Madara hints that there is no time limit... And you're not answering the question...D!ABLO-32 (talk) 07:11, June 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Nagato revived only those who were killed during the invasion. — ¤ U LTIMATE S UPREME ¤ (T@lk) 07:29, June 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * In order for one to be summoned, their body must be available, right?...D!ABLO-32 (talk) 08:24, June 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, it should be. And Jiraiya can't be revived because he's dead for long that's why I don't believe Madara can be revived by Nagato. ~IndxcvNovelist (talk 08:28, June 15, 2012 (UTC)

Decimated bodies
Can Samsara of Heavenly Life Technique bring people back from the dead who's bodies have been completely decimated? When Pain used Shinra Tensei to destroy the Leaf Village, many of it's inhabitants would have been blown apart along with the buildings if it hadn't been for Katsuya and Tsunade's Yin Seal Release. --Rabbit Ronin (talk) 01:06, November 6, 2012 (UTC) Rabbit_Ronin
 * Think about it. If your body is decimated, what would your soul have to return to? It was in fact thanks to Tsunade and Katsuyu that the deceased had bodies to return to.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 11:34, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, a slug stitched the bodies, nuff said.--Elveonora (talk) 15:15, November 6, 2012 (UTC)

Using it equals death.
Obito explicitly confirmed it now, and it has been hinted at earlier as well. In the past, Obito complained how "Nagato wasted the Gedo Rinne Tensei", and that would suggest that this technique can be used once in a long period at the very least. Now we have confirmation that it can only be used once since it consumes the user's own life in the process. As for Nagato, he supposedly could have survived using it as Konan hinted, but it would be due to his Uzumaki lineage, known for super strong life force. Maybe it was the reason for Madara choosing him in the first place. I think this will be revealed in the subsequent chapters, along with Naruto finding out that Nagato was his relative. Duh, got carried away there. Xfing (talk) 18:23, December 18, 2012 (UTC)

Trivia
In the Trivia section it says they can't make Madara into a Jinchūriki because he was reincarnated and not revived but Obito made the previous Jinkūrikis back into them as his six paths.--Karldonovan (talk) 07:34, February 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * Using chakra receivers to temporarily bind them to the body. As soon as they were defeated the bodies were recalled to the statue.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:01, February 23, 2013 (UTC)

Healing Power
Can't life force heal wounds too ? Fukasaku was stabbed by pain and had no injuries after nagato used this technique,and the same happened with sakura after chiyo transfered some of her life force when sasori cut her--177.33.242.158 (talk) 21:44, March 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * Possibly. However, Sakura was healing herself while she was impaled by Sasori, and for all we know she tried to heal Fukasaku to prevent his death and clearly failed. Skitts (talk) 21:52, March 2, 2013 (UTC)

Newest chapter
Alright, let's see what we can get out of the newest chapter:
 * The usere's hair turns white because of the chakra costs, even if only one person is revived.
 * Madara probably knows how to use the technique, too
 * It was described as a "Rikudō no Kinjutsu". This could either refer to the RS or to the Rikudō no Jutsu.
 * If the RS was meant, he probably knows how to use the technique, too. But I'd add something like (mentioned) or so, since he was never shown using it. We have to differ clearly between saying someone can use it and that someone actually using it, not only in this article, but everywhere.
 * The reviving process still takes some time, even if it's only one person that needs to be revived.
 * The king of hell wasn't summoned, so it's not a necessity for this jutsu.

Am I missing something? What should we do with all that? Seelentau 愛議 10:32, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, we know the user's hair turns white and that it's a kinjutsu. But, seeing as how Hashirama has never met a person with the rinnegan, then it's safe to assume that he was talking of the actual sage(I mean, he might not know ALL of the Six Paths Techniques. Just the ones he's heard about). As mentioned, he should therefore be a user. As for Madara, he forced Obito to make the desired handseals, as far as I know, so he could technically be a user. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 10:41, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Madara forced Obito to do it, thus Madara used it as well. Both Obito and Madara should have been listed as users of all six paths techniques long ago... I'm still nice about this. Manga itself stated that both can use all, so why isn't it there in their infoboxes? For King of Hell, not sure. I thought Madara's revival failed in the chapter, so it was yet to be summoned?--Elveonora (talk) 10:54, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * If we mention them as users, we should write (possible) or (mentioned) or so
 * Madara's revival failed, yes. But his soul wasn't captured within the king of hell, thus there was no need to summon it. Seelentau 愛議 11:17, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Its not that his soul wasnt trapped, in the KofH, but that the attempt failed. Its not like, whoever uses the jutsu only restores the people whom he killed. Every soul goes through to the other world. And to my understanding, the Kill of Hell just bring them out at the user request. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 11:26, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * That might be true but Madara's soul isn't in the other world, he was revived by Edo Tensei and his soul was bound to a dead body. There would be no need for the king of hell to be present during this. Joshbl56  12:06, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Oh yea. I completely overlooked that point. So what should we say about that? Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 12:16, July 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * It could be noted in trivia or something that you don't need to use the King of Hell if the soul is has already been brought back through another jutsu. Joshbl56  12:28, July 3, 2013 (UTC)

I really don't think the Rikudō Sennin is meant in this case. Naruto simply calls the Rinne Tensei "the Six Paths' Reviving Technique". Does he even know who the RS is? Seelentau 愛議 00:01, July 12, 2013 (UTC)

Madara's original plan flaw?
So Madara's original plan was for Obito to bring him back with this technique. But wouldn't his body have already been decomposed, or it would've been old? Why would Madara want to have been revived back into an old body? I think we should put something in the trivia for this, that this technique doesn't need the original body or something.--Asian711 (talk) 02:36, December 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * As shown in recent chapters, it doesn't need the original body. &#34;I&#39;m a very neat monster.&#34; (talk) 05:03, December 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * Not only that, Madara probably didn't care what body he came back in, the goal was to put himself in a position where he could be anything we damn well wanted.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 05:04, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

I'm quite certain that even grandpa Madara could kick their arses. Also I doubt that it doesn't need the original body, it has to, otherwise it would be possible to bring x person into y body. Just my speculation, but it's possibly Madara's body was somehow preserved, either with fuuinjutsu or Hash cells slowed its decomposition, there you have it--Elveonora (talk) 11:32, December 11, 2013 (UTC)

Misconception
I think the article describes the technique from an old point of knowledge and is mostly wrong nowadays. I re-wrote the article for the German wiki already, so I'm gonna translate what I wrote there. Maybe you guys can give me input on this topic afterwards:
 * Outer Path: Samsara of Heavenly Life Technique is a Dōjutsu from the Rinnegan and used through the Outer Path. It grants the user control over life and death in exchange for his own life.
 * With this technique, dead humans can be brought back to life by sending their souls back to their bodies from the afterlife or, if they were stored in the King of Hell, by releasing them from there. If a soul that is targeted by this technique is bound to another body in the real world with Edo Tensei, the dust body becomes a real body made of flesh and blood. However, if any parts of the soul's original body aren't decomposed, they won't be recreated. In Madara's case his eyes were missing after being brought back to life by Obito Uchiha.
 * Using this technique requires a large amount of chakra, resulting in whitening of the user's hair and ultimately in his death, regardless of how many humans were brought back. However, it can happen that the user is interrupted and thus escapes death.

That's all I wrote. Did I miss anything or so? Seelentau 愛議 16:31, January 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * Ok. I'm an idiot. How is that different what we already have?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:13, January 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Other than you know...being shorter.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 17:14, January 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * Don't quite see how significantly our article differs from that myself. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:15, January 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * as far as I understand the article, it indicates that the statue is a necessity for the jutsu. Seelentau 愛議 17:25, January 3, 2014 (UTC)