Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-26998824-20150920161424/@comment-26773508-20150928115749

Thekillman wrote: Oh i don't disagree that Kishimoto changed his mind (Hashirama was only ~60 years ago but everyone magically forgot about him) but i don't see Hiruzen's strengths as a retcon. I think we're working with two different ideas of "retcon". When I say Hiruzen's strength was retconned, I mean he's no longer the strongest hokage before Naruto. By this statement, I also mean that Hiruzen is not at the same level as Hashirama and Madara. That still leaves room for Hiruzen to be the 2nd-strongest hokage after Hashi (Naruto doesn't count). In fact, it's been actually confirmed that Hiruzen indeed is the 2nd strongest Hokage, since DB4 claims that Hiruzen showed more talent than Tobirama since a very young age. So he's still strong. But not as strong as he was made out to be in Part 1. GreatestSin wrote: ^i think your "Observation 2" has a mistake, hiruzen wasnt hyped to be the most powerful shinobi in part 2 :) Nope. He was overhyped in Part 1, when Iruka said to a bunch of Academy kids that Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage to have ever lived. Further hype came from Part 1 Kabuto, who tried to console a defeated Orochimaru that he had fought and killed the strongest Hokage ever; a shinobi of such fearsome power that he was called "The God of Shinobi".

I don't remember anyone saying such things about Hiruzen in Part 2. Instead, Part 2 hyped up Minato, then Madara and Hashirama. Hiruzen wasn't even mentioned most of the times.

Thekillman wrote: BakumatsuWarrior wrote: Inference 3: The fact that Hiruzen, in his near-perfect Edo form, could do nothing against Guruguru Tobi (who had vastly inferior Hashi powers) Was Hiruzen even fighting the guy? From memory, Hiruzen sort-of left after erecting the barrier and seems to have been moving over the battlefield to do...whatever he did. He shows up briefly to block the Wood Statue's elemental attacks, and i believe that's the last we see of him until the IT starts. A fight between Hiruzen and Guruguru would have been awesome. It would also have been a strategic victory for the Shinobi Alliance if Guruguru fell in battle, since he and his mini Wood Buddha were blocking the way to the place where Madara, Sasuke, and the other Edo Hokage were fighting. If Kishi was really serious about Hiruzen's place in the shinobi pantheon, he would have given Hiruzen some screen time and some awesome jutsus. But it seems clear that Kishi doesn't give a toss about Hiruzen and made him pretty much irrelevant in the whole war. And I think the reason he went to the trouble of mentioning in DB4 that Hiruzen showed more talent than Tobirama was just that Kishi was aware he had overhyped Hiruzen in Part 1 and did the exact opposite in Part 2. So to avoid looking like a complete fool, Kishi added a footnote saying that Hiruzen was better than Tobirama at least. It's his way of saying to Hiruzen fans, "I know I screwed up, but see!! it's not really that bad, right? Hiruzen is at least stronger than Tobirama!! So cheer up!!"