User talk:Elveonora

Blaze Release = Amaterasu + Yin Release
Sasuke cast Amaterasu with his left eye and Tsukuyomi with right, that according to 2nd Mizukage, genjutsu = Yin Release. So Sasuke first cast it with left eye and then give it form with his imagination (Yin) with his Tsukuyomi right eye.--Elveonora (talk) 18:54, October 1, 2011 (UTC)

Naruto's and Killer B's Jinchuriki Forms
We have seen Killer B using version 1 and version 2 of his transformation. Killer B's version 2 looks like Naruto's 4 tailed form and Killer B is able to summon/create Eigh-Tail's skull/bones to increase power of his Lariat. This is again similar to Naruto's 6 tailed form. So theory:

Version 1 is formed when the host is using his/her own chakra and less than that of Biju's chakra ... For example ratio 3:2 of Human/Demon chakra. But when the host will let himself/herself being overwhelmed with more of Biju's chakra with their own chakra suppressed for example ratio of 2:3 of Human/Demon chakra, the version 2 is formed. Since Killer B is friend with Eight-Tails, he was in control of it unlike Naruto.--Elveonora (talk) 16:47, October 3, 2011 (UTC)

Mikoto betrayed Kushina
Other than the people participating, Mikoto was the only one that knew about Kushina's pregnancy. So in short: --Elveonora (talk) 07:15, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Tobi came to Uchiha Clan saying he is Uchiha Madara
 * He came for revenge
 * Tobi got from Mikoto the location and details about Kushina giving birth.
 * The reason for Uchiha were nowhere to be found during the Fox's attack is because "Madara" told them to hold back or they will be killed as well.

Tobi being Izuna
Tobi: Izuna:
 * Height 	175.0 cm
 * Weight 	55.9 kg
 * Height 	174.8 cm
 * Weight 	55.9 kg


 * Madara's hobby is falconry.
 * Madara (斑) can be translated as "spots".

Tobi can be translated as "jump" (飛), or as "kite" (鳶). The latter translation connects Tobi with Taka through the Japanese proverb "a hawk born from a kite" (鳶が鷹を生む, tobi ga taka o umu), meaning that an extraordinarily gifted child can be born from ordinary parents.

Hmm, Tobi "jump" Madara "spots" Tobi: "a hawk born from a kite" Madara's hobby being "falconry".

Tobi: (The lie being that Madara's power is his own ... he gained a new light, EMS and a Rinnegan from Izuna's eyes thus Madara's power being that of Izuna) (Uchiha Madara's power being that of Tobi/Izuna since he has his eyes ... Tobi claims that power being his since it were his own eyes to begin with) (Everything will be as it should, Tobi/Izuna getting his power back)
 * "It will be a new world… A world of truth, not lies."
 * "The true power of the Sharingan… this Madara Uchiha's power!"
 * "Soon… all our goals will be achieved… and when they are, everything will be as it should."

Eighty years prior to the start of the series, Izuna and his older brother Madara were said to be "equals" as the most gifted members of the Uchiha clan. When Madara eventually went blind, "he took Izuna's eyes" to regain his sight. Itachi Uchiha suggested that his eyes had been taken by force; however, Tobi insisted that Izuna had willingly given up his eyes for the good of his brother and the whole clan.

Notice, http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/399/3 http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/399/4 Also it must be Tobi from where Itachi learned the story from. Now he confirms Madara took Izuna's eyes only to later say Izuna/he gave him his eyes ... Notice Tobi's reaction in that panel. http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/386/2 http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/386/9 Notice the demon statue's forehead resemble Rinnegan but http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/386/13 Itachi's statue forehead is missing it. http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/386/10 This is not true, since real Madara being dead ... unless the real Madara gave his eyes to Nagato to store them and take it back after his revival.
 * Sasuke: You stole your brother's eyes
 * "Madara": I did
 * "Madara": My younger brother accepted his role and willingly gave his eyes to me
 * Sasuke: Uchiha Madara learned the "final" (notice the "final" meaning final stage/power) secret of the mangekyou sharingan ?
 * Itachi: A permanent mangekyou sharingan! But that was only half of the story. The transplant also gave birth to a completely new doujutsu (Rinnegan)
 * Itachi: Though he lost the battle for control, he remains alive and well, as do his eyes and their power.
 * Tobi said "I gave Nagato the Rinnegan" to Konan ... thats true, since Tobi act as Madara ... What Tobi claims he did are actions of the real Madara.
 * "The eyes were mine to begin with" to Kabuto, Kabuto know he is not Madara so now he is speaking for his real self ... "mine to begin with" another proof its Izuna.

Also http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/399/5 Thats true, Izuna gave his eyes to Madara so the Senju can be defeated ... however, the truce pact was made later leaving the sacrifice meaningless.
 * "Madara": What did my brother sacrifice his eyes for?!

We know that Sharingan has ability to project/show things to other people. Like Sasuke showing Kabuto Orochimaru's failed insurrection and Itachi showing the history of Uchiha to Sasuke. It's obvious the masked man has shown the same thing to Itachi first most likely when they met as a proof of him being "Madara" because only Madara could know and show the history of Konoha,Uchiha and himself and his brother Izuna, so Itachi was fooled.

But, Edo Madara commented on Nagato being a brat indicating he died when Nagato was not mature or old/powerful enough for respect. The masked man met Itachi not much years ago and Nagato died as a man in his late 30's or early 40's. Thus basically the man that Itachi met was "Tobi" with Madara already dead, this is supported by Kabuto's and Orochimaru's research of Madara's corpse.

Thus the only person with more or less the same knowledge of Madara, Izuna, Uchiha, Konoha, Hashirama etc. can't be no one else than Izuna himself with Madara already dead. - 		 - 	More supported by their baseline hair, eyes, eyebrows being the same and Tobi having the same height as Izuna, with more connections listed above. --Elveonora (talk) 14:00, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

Replies
On the kekkei tōta and kekkei genkai theory, lots of things already stated in the series contradict it. Wood Release was specifically called kekkei genkai both in the manga and in databooks. The meaning of kekkei tōta is literally "bloodline selection", which probably deals with selective breeding of shinobi from certain bloodlines so they show desirable traits. It's an artificial selection, that's what humans did to dogs, and the reason why there are so many different dig breeds. I don't think it has to do with hiden techniques as well, otherwise Deidara would be a kekkei tōta user as well. All of his exploding clay techniques were ranked as hiden in databooks, and he was recently revealed as a Explosion Release user, which is a kekkei genkai, so his techniques are at the same time kekkei genkai and hiden. So far, that has not been called kekkei tōta, and I don't think it will. For all we know, Mū and Ōnoki simply are relatives of some sort, or even offspring of people with the same desirable traits that had children, and both ended up with the same traits, and due to seniority, Mū tutored Ōnoki on how to use it.

On Blaze Release, I pretty much agree. Most of my thoughts on this are in my element recomposition theory page. While the chapter wasn't clear on whether Yin Release is just genjutsu (meaning only genjutsu is Yin Release) or if genjutsu is a sub-category of Yin Release (meaning there are non-genjutsu Yin Release techniques, or even non Yin Release genjutsu). From the moment Yin Release was said to deal with creating shape and form, Blaze Release started making some sense.

On jinchūriki forms, I think they only things ever said about it was drawing more power from the tailed beasts. The only thing about ratios in chakra regarding tailed beasts so far is how to perform the Tailed Beast Ball. I can see the ratio being applied to other things as well, but I don't see it as something that necessarily happens in this case.

On the sixth coffin, I don't think that's a very good reason to think it's Izuna. I think it's possible that it is Izuna, but I think that it's a much too obvious choice. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:08, October 10, 2011 (UTC)

Really thanks for your time. Well, retcons are not uncommon ... it happened in Naruto before ... one chapter/databook says this and next the something else. If its really breeding, why Kurotsuchi and Kitsuchi have no such powers ?, thats right ... we dont know if Kitsuchi is Onoki's son. But why at least Kurotsuchi has no Dust Release then but instead she has Lava? So Uchiha + Hyuga = New Kekkei Tota ? That really dont explain why only Hashirama had Wood Release and why we have not seen Madara using it. Also Tsunade is both Uzumaki and Senju and she has no KKG or KKT. Deidara's mouths are the result of the Forbidden Technique he stole and it allows him to create his clay with those mouths on palm. His KKG is Explosion Release but those clays are Earth Natured. I really would not be surprised if Deidara's powers will later turn out to be Kekkei Tota since Onoki trained him. Thats why I think my theory is correct but we will have to wait for a new Databook.

I dont think Yin Release is only Genjutsu ... its many things that have something to do with "spiritual energy that governs the imagination, can be used to create form out of nothingness" I think Shadow Imitation Technique is pretty much Yin Release for example and Shadow Sewing Technique is Yin-Yang Release. Thanks you think its right :- ) Wonder what effect would have Amaterasu + Yang O_O

I think my 1st and 2nd transformation theory is right. Nine-Tails took control of Naruto with the 4th tail when too much of its chakra has leaked out and overwhelmed Naruto's own due to his unstable emotions from Orochimaru Sasuke talk. Naruto's 4 and 6 tailed forms are exactly like Killer B's version 2 transformation. Naruto's 1,2,3 tailed forms are still in ratio of 2:3 but he lose control already due to not being able to filter the hatred back then but still more or less aware whats going on. With 4 tails its already 3:2 and he is unconscious and Nine-Tails in control of his body. But Killer B and Eight-Tails are team/friends and theres no hatred with the chakra. Killer B is in control of his transformations and he can simply ask The Eight-Tail for chakra and can filter the ammount. And I dont think that Eight-Tails is draining Killer B's chakra since they are in good terms.

And I bet its Izuna :- ) Also I really like your advanced natures theories, it must have taken a lot of time to come up with these. --Elveonora (talk) 17:07, October 11, 2011 (UTC)

I think the only true retcon I've ever seen in the series is Hashirama's Wood Release being called a kekkei genkai after it was called a hiden technique. All others can be properly explained. Chapters and databooks only reveal information about stuff known up to a specific point in the series. Otherwise, we would have known Explosion Release and Magnet Release from the beginning of part II. I believe that the reason Kurotsuchi has Lava Release is because she didn't get all the genes necessary to have Dust Release. Like the bloodline was watered down, so to speak. Earth and fire are still part of Dust Release, she just didn't get the gene that would let her add Wind Release to the mixture. Kitsuichi could be the same. About Uchiha and Hyūga, not necessary, but in theory, yes, it could work, though I think it would take many generations before a proper dōjutsu kekkei tōta could appear. About Wood Release, first of all, you have to consider that Hashirama was the first one to display that ability. Wood Release ninjutsu began with him, no one before him has ever used it. Considering that and the fact we will most likely know all element combinations before the end of the war, that would mean that out of all the combinations, Wood Release is the most recent to appear. Now, using a more general approach to explain why only he would have it, people seem to be under the assumption that merely having a gene means you'll have a kekkei genkai ability. Few consider the possibility of the trait being recessive, and no one seems to consider the possibility of a kekkei genkai ability depending on more than one gene, on it depending on a set of genes. It could be that Senju clan members in general have the genes for Wood Release, but only when the right alleles (please don't make me explain what an allele is, it's kinda like a variation of a gene) are together, one has the Wood Release. That could explain why none of his descendants have it as well, because they don't have the right alleles. About Madara not using it, maybe he's saving it for when he needs it. Maybe using it costs a lot of his chakra. The Uzumaki were never said to have kekkei genkai. Explosion Release was already confirmed as a kekkei genkai, meaning Deidara's techniques, in addition to hiden, due to the technique he stole, are also kekkei genkai. That's not kekkei tōta though. Assuming Earth Release isn't a component of Explosion Release, Deidara is using a technique which is Earth Release and Explosion Release. He's using three natures in a technique (earth and the two which make up explosion), but he's not merging three natures into a single one. He's making the explosion natured chakra, and putting it into earth natured clay. He's not merging the three natures. I don't believe that Yin Release is just genjutsu as well. I believe there is more to Yin Release than genjutsu. I think that the Nara clan's shadow techniques are Yin Release, for the same reason you mentioned (shadows are shapes, which are being manipulated), but I see no reason for some of their techniques to be Yin-Yang. I have seen some people arguing for them to be Yang Release as well, on the basis that the shadows are being animated, as if being given life. Since Amaterasu plus Yang doesn't need to be Amaterasu specifically, since Amaterasu has been called Fire Release in official sources. I have nothing else to say on the transformation chakra ratio theory or the Izuna one. On my theory page, it's simply something I created where I would add things when they came to me. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:40, October 11, 2011 (UTC)

Haha, thanks again. Im glad you agree with Yin thing. About Deidara, I know he is using just 2 elements at once for his Explosion but he then infuses the explosion natured chakra into clay filled with earth release chakra so he is kinda using "3 elements at once" Aren't the Uzumaki said to have "incredible longevity/vitality" not to say that all Kyubi's host are/were Uzumaki meaning they must have some kind of strong and unique chakras (Kushina) ... isn't it kinda like KKG since its their trait ? What about Nagato's Rinnegan ? I guess the coffin reveal is close and we will see more of Naruto's Kyubi forms as well. Also the genes must be really really rare when he was the only one ever (officialy) to use Wood Release. Also question, did you not find it a bit weird that for example Dust is made from: But we have never seen Onoki using Wind or Fire technique and the same goes for Hashirama since I found it weird he has not cancelled Hiruzen's earth or used water combo with Tobirama. Deidara's explosion is made from more elements than Earth but except his "art" we have never seen other powers from him which I found really lame from Kishimoto unless theres a reason for that. Hope my Izuna and 2nd Form/Transformatin stuff turn out to be true ... Also if may I ask, is this your hobby ? I mean narutowiki admin and posting theories and stuff, whats your job in real life ?--Elveonora (talk) 01:04, October 12, 2011 (UTC)
 * Wind
 * Earth
 * Fire

Deidara is using three elements in a technique, but he's not merging three elements. It would be like Ōnoki adding wind natured chakra to a Lava Release technique. Still three elements being used, but not three elements being merged. All those in Uzushiogakure were said to have long lives, which means the non-Uzumaki there as well. I don't think that everything that is restricted to a certain group, by definition is kekkei genkai. Jūgo's abilities are very kekkei genkai like, yet nothing was ever said about him possessing a kekkei genkai. I think that we will still learn more about Nagato's Rinnegan, due to Madara's claim he gave Nagato the Rinnegan. I believe that Madara knew that certain people, who descended from the Sage of the Six Paths had the potential to awake the Rinnegan, and had a hand in creating the circumstances that would lead to someone awakening the Rinnegan, whatever those might be. I don't find it strange for Ōnoki not to use wind or fire. It makes sense for people with kekkei genkai to use it a lot, since using techniques few others have access to gives them an edge in battle. Let's say Darui and Sasuke fought. If Darui simply used Lightning Release, Sasuke could simply copy it and use it against him, or anyone with sufficient knowledge in Lightning Release could deploy a strategy against it. Those wouldn't happen if he focused on using Storm Release. For Ōnoki, if he doesn't use Dust Release, it makes sense for him to focus on Earth Release, since that seems to be the preferred style of Iwa-nin. We've seen Deidara use an Earth Release technique to hide underground. I think there are in-universe and out-of-universe reasons for characters not to have such a diverse arsenal. Out-of-universe, these keeps them unique. If every one had loads of techniques, it would make it difficult for a character to have a differential, something unique to them. In-universe, it's because if they focus on one particular style, they become better at it. They can't afford to spread their skills too thin, otherwise they become jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none. Naruto is something that I ended up giving a try because I had very insistent friends. I don't like giving things a try because if I do like it, I'll jump on it head on. I was already active in a wiki (the Avatar: The Last Airbender one, but that wiki went in a direction I didn't like, so I left) when I began reading and watching Naruto. I'm a full time college student, biomedicine. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:47, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Biomedicine hopefully explains that allele stuff O __ O

Also the most used theory for Nagato/Rinnegan is:

-Madara gave his EMS eyes turned off to Nagato (Thats why we have not seen him using it recently) -Uzumaki + EMS + stressful situation = Rinnegan awakened. That would explain no EMS Madara/Tobi, "I gave Nagato The Rinnegan" and "Those eyes were mine to begin with" --Elveonora (talk) 02:27, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

2 Madaras ??? Whats your theory ? Also few stuff for you:
 * Man, Kishi is sure on crack.


 * I do not think that Mu and Onoki are a father and son, nor they are blood related in any way. Father and a son would not talk and act like that ... and if their family bond is of more extended line, that would make Mu Onoki's ancestor or something.

I thought at first that Suigetsu's power is a result of experiments ... But since both Mangetsu and 2nd Mizukage can use it ... Wasn't Orochimaru's experiment a try to transfer his Hydrification Technique into other people ? I don't think that hiden techniques can be transfered, so this ability must be a KKG of some sorts. And before you will mention Jugo, he was the only one with that special gene ... Hydrification Technique have more users and I don't think that Orochimaru did something to Mangetsu and 2nd Mizukage.
 * Is Hozuki's ability a KKG ? I know its listed as a hiden but here it is:

Possible or not?
 * I know we know nothing of, but wasn't Karura a host of Shukaku ?


 * Do you think that Gaara's sand controlling powers are a result of Magnet Release ? What about those eye rings ?

My theory is that he was normal before, and received The Ten-Tail's eye as its host. I think that So6p's seal he used and Naruto's new seal are the same. Naruto has just Kyubi's yang half sealed into him ... and his chakra cloak is "yang release" like or something. What if the seal was/is used to manifest the chakra of the Ten/Nine-Tails ? I think when Sage used just Ten-Tail's yang chakra, he got Rinnegan. When he used its yin chakra, he got Sharingan. When he used both, it was "The All Seeing Eye" or something: http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110806130023/naruto/images/7/70/Sage.jpg
 * Do you think that Sage of the 6 Paths had The Rinnegan or something before being a host of The Ten-Tails ?

Why Nagato has not used his power to fly ?
 * Wasn't Nagato's Deva Path able to fly or something ?

I think she is one of the best filler Characters in anime ... I like her personality, appearance, background and abilities. Too bad Crystal Release is not canon :-( Its really cool.
 * What do you think about Guren ?

I think that Kishimoto has helped with a few movies, didn't he ? Isn't this character made by Kishimoto ? http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Mui What about 3rd movie characters appearing in the manga, though with different powers. What about Anko's Cursed Seal filler ? To be considered canon or not ?
 * Are some fillers and movies at least partially canon ?

From where Itachi does know about Minato and Kushina being Naruto's parents ?
 * How is it that suddenly every manga character has knowledge about everything ?

What would happen ? Actually whats the difference between speed from Body Flicker Technique and the 5th gate ?
 * What about using the Body Flicker Technique and the 5 gates at once ?

I mean, when Naruto is using his "sexy technique" ... is he really a girl/woman with "that thing down and everything"? O_O
 * I know that the Transformation Technique is not an Illusion, but maybe stupid to ask ... how is it working ? is it really a physical transformation ?

I think he is pretty lame compared to other Kages shown, namely to Edo Kages.
 * How is it that Hiruzen Sarutobi was called "God of Shinobi" ... ???

Answer please :- ) --Elveonora (talk) 18:09, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

I'm still trying to make sense of the two Madaras. The best theory I've seen so far is that, because Mū recognised Madara, and Ōnoki having fought him, Mū may also have fought him, resulting in Madara copying his splitting technique, and using it when he fought Hashirama. That would account for a deceased Madara, and for Madara being a shadow of his former self, because half of him was killed. Nothing implies the Hōzuki clan's abilities are kekkei genkai. We were never told why Orochimaru had Suigetsu, nor why he experimented on him. The only thing we know is that Orochimaru had him in his custody, and experimented on him, but nothing on his purpose for doing so. Maybe Orochimaru wanted to conduct an experiment which required a special test subject, someone with that technique. Karura was never mentioned or implied to be a host of the Shukaku. Nothing indicates Gaara can use Magnet Release. Gamabunta thought it was due to staying awake for years so the Shukaku wouldn't eat away his personality, but Gaara was born with it. I think the best explanation is that he got it because Shukaku was sealed him in while he was still in the womb, which would have some effect on him, the same way Naruto had whisker marks before the Nine-Tails was sealed on him, because his mother was the host. I can see Kishimoto giving his father the rings just arbitrarily so he could make a comparison between him and Gaara. I think the Sage had the Rinnegan before sealing the Ten-Tails. Nothing implies he only got it afterwards. Deva Path's ability is all about attraction and repulsion forces, not flight, and Nagato was shown using that. I don't really like fillers, specially when they deal with things that might interfere with future things from canon. I have no idea on how canon movies are. I have no idea if Kishimoto had input in Mui's character, though I have no reason to believe so. Something I always see that kinda makes me mad: people always assume that when something from anime or movies show up in the manga, they always think that Kishimoto is being lazy and taking stuff from the anime. They don't ever consider the idea that Kishimoto provided ideas and concepts for the anime and movies. It's something that I can clearly see his editors or someone with some say on the series telling him to do that, in order to "integrate" different mediums from the series, as a sort of marketing strategy. I don't think Anko's filler arc is canon. At least it doesn't contradicts anything from canon, unlike the Kurama Clan arc, which shows things about Kurenai's past that go against things that were said in the manga. I thought it was weird people every where know who Naruto's parents were as well. I think Itachi might have known due to his involvement in ANBU, and others, like the Raikage, might have learned due to sharing intelligence for the upcoming war, such as who the jinchūriki are and all. Body Flicker is probably simply faster depending on how much chakra one puts in it. Transformation probably creates a weak "shell" around the one using it, with the appearance of whatever one wants to transform into. Hiruzen's hype comes from him knowing tons and tons of techniques. By knowing, I mean knowing about them, not just being able to perform them. He knew how to counter loads of techniques, and according to what we've seen of him, he had loads of chakra in his youth, and has incredible chakra control, meaning he uses less chakra per technique. Strength is just one factor. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:44, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Edo Madara has a knowledge of The Edo Tensei technique while Tobi was like "I dunno" until Kabuto told him and explained. You have probably not realized this, right ? Also read/watch again the "And the darkness never came again" scene with the hood. You can see clearly that the man with a hood is not Madara but Izuna. Looks like we have been fooled and not realized this one.
 * I must say, NO. Uchiha Madara knew pretty well both Hashirama and Tobirama.

http://94.23.34.161/manga/mangas/Naruto/559%20-%20Reinforcements%20Arrive/16.png Madara

http://wvfwfwf.webgarden.cz/image/11105622 http://imageftw.com/uploads/20110731/Untitled-1.png Izuna O_O

But how is he aware of Nagato then ? When will a better translation be up ?


 * But how did they seal the Shukaku into Gaara while he was still in the womb ? ... Only thing that makes sense is that Karura was a host.

"This is the third child ... and the first compatible one"
 * I still think that Gaara has Magnet. What about the thing that Chiyo said ?

Tobi mentioned that with The Ten-Tailed Beast, Sage's power was far beyond human ... not before. The Ten-Tail's eye resembles both Sharingan and Rinnegan and we have never seen Sage's eye before the sealing.
 * People considered the Sage a God after he saved the world from the beast.


 * Well, I have seen Mui's manga artwork credited by Masashi Kishimoto.

I think Anko filler is pretty much canon because I dont see the animators going as far as to say/show things that will most likely contradict the manga and also no other explanation was given in manga and its already chapter 559 xD Also about Kurenai and her family being from other village ... pretty much possible. Kushina came to Konoha as a young girl and we have seen Kurenai while Kyubi attack was already at least 15-16.
 * Yeah, I think that most of movies and fillers characters and other things are Kishimoto's early ideas/characters that never get into the "final version"

Also, would not it be better to use a different picture for body flicker ? What about first timeskip Sasuke x Team 7 confrontation or Sasuke's "kill" of Tobi ?
 * I know how Body Flicker works, but Im asking if you think its possible to combine the eight gates and body flicker but that would probably be so fast that it could kill the user right away, LOL.


 * So the transformation is physical as long as the user will not lose chakra or the concentration by for example being hit, right ?

Onoki is old and without Tobi's/Madara's/Izuna's/Whoever's help Sasuke would be killed by him. I cant see Hiruzen defeating Sasuke : D
 * LOL. Enma's comment of Hiruzen being lame in Orochimaru fight compared to his title of professor and God of Shinobi is now as double, no ... triple as true.

--Elveonora (talk) 20:07, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Madara only knew Hashirama and Tobirama from fighting their clan and during the brief period they build Konoha. Madara left after being denied the position of Hokage, and only came back years later to fight Hashirama. Tobi recognised Edo Tensei when Kabuto used it. Edo Madara didn't know he was brought back with Edo Tensei until Mū told him. Tobi simply didn't know how the details of it. Tobi and Edo Madara's knowledge looks pretty on par as far as Edo Tensei goes. And knowing Edo Tensei isn't that a big deal, Chiyo knew about it, so did Mū and Gari. The hooded one is Madara, it's very clear. Madara and Izuna were very similar looking when young, check the chapters Itachi tells their story again. Plus, you can see the EMS in his eye, and Madara is the one who got EMS, not Izuna. If the split theory holds (I find it to be a good theory, though I doubt it'll end up being true), Madara could simply have gone into hiding, scheming from the shadows, eventually learning about Nagato. I think the final explanation will have something to deal with Zetsu as well. It was never said that it's impossible to seal something into someone while still in the womb. They just go and seal it. I see nothing that would implicate in Karura being or having to be a host. Chiyo said he was the first one compatible, probably saying that he could handle having a tailed beast sealed into him. Kushina was chosen as a host because her chakra was well suited to suppressing the Nine-Tails. About the Sage, nothing indicates that the images we've seen of him so far are only post sealing. To manage sealing the Ten-Tails, he would have to be extremely powerful already, or do you think he discovered the mysteries of chakra only after sealing the Ten-Tails? That wouldn't make any sense. The Ten-Tails having that eye could be akin to Nine-Tails and Manda having a Sharingan while under the effects of Sharingan genjutsu or influence, with the Rinnegan ripples appearing over the Sharingan tomoe that I believe the Ten-Tails would naturally have. The anime said that Kurenai came to Kohona from another village because of her genjutsu prowess, they said nothing about her family. Kurenai's father seemed to be a Konoha ninja already. I don't know why focus on the BFT, it's just speed, want more, pump more chakra into it. This isn't the place to discuss an image change, and I don't think it's necessary. About transformation technique, I think that's how it works. I won't say old Hiruzen could beat Sasuke, but I can definitely see prime Hiruzen doing it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:13, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much for such interesting talks.--Elveonora (talk) 21:45, October 12, 2011 (UTC)

So you think that Tobi: Also i would find it stupid if Tobi is not somehow Madara since Konan was about to die by his hand so there would be no reason for him to lie.)
 * Still Madara (used Izanagi to split himself into 2 people, or used Mu's technique. So he survived his fight with Hashirama by splitting into 2 people with Izanagi or Mu's technique, learned of Nagato and gave him his EMS to create Rinnegan, and now the 2nd half want it back.
 * Izuna (Has not died and want revenge and his eyes back)
 * Shisui (Has fooled Itachi about being good, thus Tobi being Shisui and his corpse is missing due so. And before you will say that Itachi used Amaterasu or crows to destroy his corpse, what if it was all just genjutsu?)
 * Kagami (He was one from Elders missing while Kyubi attack ... yes, I know all Uchihas were not there to help for reasons unknown)
 * Obito (-O_O-)
 * Zetsu clone (Copied Madara's chakra)
 * New character
 * Uchiha Clan Ancestor
 * Something only Kishimoto can come up with :- D

I never said he discovered the mysteries of chakra due to Ten-Tails ... Every living being has chakra in Naruto world. Sage was something like "proto-shinobi" xD He was just the first one that probably named the hidden power chakra, discovered its mysteries and taught people how to control it ... I dont think Rinnegan is needed for such. As far as I and we know, Rinnegan has no genjutsu powers like Sharingan ... so Ten-Tail's eye being like that due to Sage's genjutsu is stupid. Both Tobi's new mask and his infinite tsukuyomi moon look like this: http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091022225735/naruto/images/thumb/2/27/Ten-Tails_Eye.svg/150px-Ten-Tails_Eye.svg.png --Elveonora (talk) 01:16, October 13, 2011 (UTC)
 * And nothing indicates its before as well :-P

If we're going by the previous databooks, the fourth one should already have been published. I still expect it to be published within a few months, actually. However, it's very well possible that Kishimoto-sensei is waiting for the end of the war or even the manga now. —ShounenSuki (talk 15:09, November 4, 2011 (UTC)

Do you think that the manga is close to its finale already ? O_o Also is there some way to send a pm to you or something similar ? I have some questions about timeline and other stuff. Also have you read my Izuna stuff ? If not, please read it and let me know what do you think about it. --Elveonora (talk) 01:57, November 5, 2011 (UTC)


 * I do think the manga is nearing its ending. The deaths of Itachi, Nagato, and Jiraiya, the annihilation of Akatsuki, the revelation of Sasuke's eternal Mangekyō and Madara's Edo Tensei, Sasuke and Tobi heading out to the battle field… These are all indications that the manga is nearing, or at, its climax right now. I wouldn't be surprised if Tsunade would die soon, finally making Kakashi Hokage.
 * You can ask me any question you'd like on my talk page. No-one will mind a bit of off-topic banter on personal talk pages every now and then.
 * I read your Izuna stuff and it's an interesting read. I would suggest making your conclusion a bit more clear, though. I found it a bit vague what exactly your opinion on the matter was.
 * —ShounenSuki (talk 12:35, November 5, 2011 (UTC)

Call me crazy but: By having the younger son's body and taking the elder son's eyes from Sasuke, Naruto gains the true power of the So6p.
 * So no part III. ??? : - (
 * Naruto vs Sasuke fight ... result being a draw and Naruto reveals that Itachi was revived by Edo Tensei, thus filling Sasuke's dark soul with light.
 * Itachi vs Kabuto fight, Itachi being defeated and Kabuto regains the control over him and Sasuke will be forced to defeat Edo Itachi and seal him with Totsuka Sword.
 * Killer B killed by Tobi
 * Naruto will lose the Kyubi but survive
 * Orochimaru returns through Kabuto
 * Yamato being revived in the Hashirama's body.
 * Yamato killing Kabuto
 * Sasuke will attack Tobi but being defeated and made another "Pain" using the Chakra Receivers. Tobi (revealed to be Izuna) will take Sasuke's right Mangekyō to replace his normal Sharingan eye and fill Sasuke's empty socket with the right Rinnegan eye, so both of them will have 1 EMS and 1 Rinnegan.
 * Ten Tails restored and Izuna becomes its host ... The plan is to use Sasuke as a "tool" for his Moon Eye plan.
 * Madara fighting with Izuna over the Ten-Tails. While the two are locked in combat, Orochimaru will possess of Sasuke.
 * Orochimaru cancelling the Edo Tensei technique thus Madara being defeated, Oro planning to take the Ten-Tails from Izuna.
 * Naruto fighting Orochimaru(Sasuke) but being defeated ... But Sasuke regains the control over his body before Naruto being killed.
 * Sasuke starts to fully believe in Naruto and decides to sacrifice for him, thus unlocking the elder son's power (Which is attained by an EMS user overcoming the curse of hatred, the ability to combine powers of both EMS and Rinnegan into one) Sasuke offers Naruto his eyes before sealing himself along with Orochimaru using the Totsuka sword by Susanoo.
 * Revealed that Uzumaki with Will of Fire = Body of So6p ... Explained that by Naruto having the Sage's body and Uzumaki's chakra being yang oriented, plus as he had the Kyubi's yang chakra sealed inside of himself, he reached the power of the Younger son of Sage.
 * Izuna's Moon eye plan ruined by Sasuke being dead ... Rikudō Sennin Naruto defeats fake Rikudō Sennin Izuna. Izuna's death releases the Ten-Tails ... Naruto seals it into himself and ask Kakashi to send him along with it into another space/dimension using Kamui (After Naruto's death it would be released and sealing it again into a moon is risky because there are always evil people after such power)
 * The peace was brought by no longer having the weapons (Tailed Beasts and So6p power lost forever) Naruto becoming the 6th Hokage after his death and a Hero, The Saviour of the World.
 * Kakashi taking the position of the 7th Hokage ...
 * The End!

--Elveonora (talk) 01:32, November 6, 2011 (UTC)
 * Whats not clear about that Tobi/Izuna stuff ?

Appearance of So6p
Any guesses ? --Elveonora (talk) 10:21, November 16, 2011 (UTC)

Re:Please
Well, sorry dude I'm just following Narutopedia rules. --Ilnarutoanime -NejiLoverr- 13:55, November 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Kdot! But you're answering old topics, honestly I've been doing that before, but they also delete my post. --Ilnarutoanime -NejiLoverr- 14:10, November 18, 2011 (UTC)
 * Hi! I did put the reason. :D --Ilnarutoanime -NejiLoverr- 15:23, November 21, 2011 (UTC)
 * It wasn't. Well, just next time be aware of the topic dates. :) Also, I apologize. --Ilnarutoanime -NejiLoverr- 10:30, November 23, 2011 (UTC)

Re: Hello
Heller~ and thanks. The things that we normally do here are governed by the culture of the wikia. Calling Minato a jinchūriki would be going too far. Hiruzen sealed Orochimaru's arms, does that make him a jinchūriki of Orochimaru's hands? Minato probably called it "heavy" because it had to pass through him.

Also, when you made the edit it was as an IP user. Usually they come here and just ask random questions on a topic. Since the discussion was about a year old I removed it.--Cerez365™

Thank you...
Thank you very much for saying I'm mentali ill just because I don't like pervert mariages in wich cousins mary and if you want to be a sponger to Shonensuk and the rest of admins, find better way than teling people who don't think as administrator say that they have mental illnes...Also nobody in my whole family was couin who maried, but maybe in your family you Quisling but I supose you don't know what that is eider...Mr unknown

Re: favor
The Japanese for 'no-one' is. There is no precise translation for 'to be' in Japanese. It is highly dependent on context. The closest they have for the verb 'to be' would be the verbs いる and ある, both of which approximately mean 'to exist'. —ShounenSuki (talk 17:00, November 27, 2011 (UTC)

RE: I'm Sorry
It's all good. I'm also not sure why he seemed so angry. As for the post, I say leave them unless an admin deletes them. It just shows that your willing to not give up on something you think is wrong :D Joshbl56  01:16, November 29, 2011 (UTC)

Re: Pruitanic
Like I said before, there are certain things inherent and unspoken in organisations outside of the rules, that's the "informal culture". On this wikia, I've observed that we don't use the word "breasts" but rather say 'bust', 'chest' or something to that effect. You can see Samui, Tsunade or any other big-breasted woman on the wikia and see what I mean. It's the same way we don't just come out and call Darui and other shinobi "black".--Cerez365™ 20:43, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

It's not a joke. No one said there was anything wrong with saying it- we just don't usually do or maybe I should say I don't. Either way this isn't or shouldn't be an issue. I think I have a pretty good idea what we're called.--Cerez365™ 21:04, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

I've noticed that as well, it's hard to break out of. I refuse. What's not to like. Good for you.--21:27, November 30, 2011 (UTC)

Re: Takigakure
Little has ever been said about Takigakure in any manga-related work. However, the First Fanbook does have a little bit of information on it: "Takigakure no Sato: An enormous waterfall prevents strangers from invading!! While surrounded by four countries, so far, foreign countries have not once been able to invade. It's proud of that power."

This is all we know of this village from the manga. Anything else is not canon. It could very well be that the manga will show a Takigakure that's completely different from anything the anime has shown us.

Oh, and there's no such thing as a Takikage. —ShounenSuki (talk 18:54, December 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * We'd probably just put all the info on a single page, really. It's not that difficult to distinguish between manga and anime canon.
 * As for Anko, it's very difficult to make a nice time line for her. However, I could try. We can calculate that Anko is 28 at this point in the manga. She became a genin at 10 and a chūnin at 12 (in the year of the Kyūbi attack). Orochimaru probably left Konoha within a few years after the Kyūbi attack.
 * Jūgo, the source of the Juin, is 18 right now, 10 years younger than Anko. Kimimaro is the same age as him. to be even somewhat realistic, let's say they were both 5 when Kimimaro found Jūgo and brought him to Orochimaru. This would place this event at around 3 years after the Kyūbi attack. This would make it rather unlikely that Orochimaru was still in Konoha, especially since it's already highly unlikely he would have taken in Kimimaro and Jūgo while still in Konoha.
 * So with the information above, I believe Anko didn't get her Juin until after Orochimaru had left Konoha, and I think it's quite likely that she left Konoha with him for a while, until he dumped her and she returned again. This would also explain her guilt a bit better, as she feels far too guilty for simply being taught by Orochimaru. Had she actually deserted together with him, her guilt seems more believable. It's also rather difficult to believe that Orochimaru could've got away with teaching Anko all those kinjutsu while still in Konoha. —ShounenSuki (talk 21:27, December 3, 2011 (UTC)


 * It's possible that Orochimaru brainwashed her, but I find it rather unlikely. Not only did the Third Hokage know about her connections to Orochimaru and would've examined her thoroughly, but the Konoha Crash would've been a perfect time to undo the brainwashing, yet Orochimaru actually fought her. Another argument against brainwashing would be that Anko herself actually remembers her past with Orochimaru, not to mention that Orochimaru honestly no longer seemed to care for her, and that he already had another spy in Kabuto. I really don't think Anko's evil.
 * Anko did seem as if she used to care a great deal about Orochimaru. She almost seemed to have hero-worshipped him, even. Still, she seemed to have distanced herself from Orochimaru's evil deeds and seemed quite hell-bent on bringing him to justice. I'm sure the Third Hokage knew what he was doing. Besides, she was prbaly under very close scrutiny by both factions of the ANBU.
 * Her Juin is a rather confusing story, really. It could be that her Juin never activated in any way because of Orochimaru's sealing or the seal the Third Hokage had put on it.
 * As for Orochimaru being present during the Kyūbi attack; it could be that they left Konoha just before . As I said, there's not enough information for a definite time line here. However, neither Jiraiya nor Tsunade was seen during the attack, either, yet both were present in Konoha around that time. It could just have been coincidence. Not every shinobi would've been in the village at the time due to mission and whatnot. —ShounenSuki (talk 01:35, December 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * Almost forgot…
 * I don't watch the anime, so I have no idea what they showed or not. The manga does show an image of a young Kimimaro and Jūgo and on that, they look like they could be anywhere between 5 and 10. They certainly don't look in their early teens, though. Still, even if they were 13, it wouldn't really mess up the time line. It would place Anko's receiving the Juin to just a year before the start of the series, but it could still be possible. —ShounenSuki (talk 01:40, December 4, 2011 (UTC)


 * The Third Hokage wasn't perfect, but he certainly wasn't a fool. He knew what he was doing putting his trust into Anko. I'm pretty sure he did everything in his power to find out if she was still under Orochimaru's influence and I wouldn't be surprised if she was basically under constant surveillance.
 * The point of the brainwashing technique used by Sasori was that those brainwashed remembered absolutely nothing about having anything to do with him. Anko clearly remembered a lot, if not everything. She's the worst person to pick as a spy. Besides, Orochimaru already had Kabuto for that purpose and Kabuto needed no brainwashing whatsoever. If Anko was brainwashed, Orochimaru would've undone the technique as soon as the invasion began. It would've been idiotic not to use all your assets in such a situation. If he hadn't used her, the whole brainwashing would've been useless.
 * Also, the fact that Orochimaru never brainwashed anyone with a technique like Sasori's indicates that he either didn't know how to, or simply chose not to. He had other methods of getting people under his control. You should also remember that the brainwashing doesn't make someone evil or anything. They simply remember that the were actually working for someone else. They could just as easily betray their true master, as Kabuto did. —ShounenSuki (talk 02:18, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Theory Replies
There are some things I'd like to point out about your theory on Mikoto betraying Kushina:
 * 1) Mikoto never knew about where and when Kushina was going to give birth, at least as far as we know.
 * 2) Kushina's pregnancy was not a secret. The event of her giving birth was. Everyone in the village probably knew she was pregnant, as it was rather obvious.

Then about your Izuna–Tobi theory: —ShounenSuki (talk 21:07, December 3, 2011 (UTC)
 * 1) You never actually draw a conclusion. Do you believe Tobi is Izuna or not?
 * 2) You actually can see the Rinnegan-like marking on the forehead of Itachi's Sharingan demon. Also, the new dōjutsu Itachi is talking about in that scene most likely isn't the Rinnegan but the eternal Mangekyō Sharingan itself.

Re: question about reporting
We're not the ones who manage wiki features, that's the central Wikia, they maintain the software used that is the engine of all wikis. The closest thing we have to something like that was a template someone created, Template:BlockCheck, which essentially creates a link to a user's contributions. Just put " " for a sysop, so they can check the person's contributions. When there are no sysops in a wiki, you can also report them at the Volunteer Spam Task Force wiki. They have many tools to help against vandalism and spam in wikis that don't have active sysops or against cross-wiki vandals. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:59, December 4, 2011 (UTC)

Izuna Theory.
Wow.. Just wow.. You have some MASSIVE stuff to back it all up. One thing though, with the statues and how Itachis is "missing" the Rinnengan eye on the forehead, I don't think it is. It's a close up shot of it and you can juuust see the bottom of the outer ring of it showing. Apart from that, again, wow (^___^) SusanooUnleashed (talk) 14:12, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

I got more stuff to back it up but I think these are the most important. And really thank you. Right now it's 99% Tobi is Izuna. --Elveonora (talk) 14:56, January 12, 2012 (UTC)

I had a thought about your theory and how Izuna could be alive but not as old as he should be, Madara woke the Rinnegan towards the end of his life, he used it to bring Izuna back to life about 30-40 years before the series started putting him roughly at 70-80 years old instead of 100-120 years old.--TricksterKing (talk) 09:05, February 6, 2012 (UTC)

Gg
I am pretty sure that the naruto bijuu mode attire like oufit was the way the sage of six path dressed. It would be no wonder, it's possible that the sage induced some of his power in the nine tail or when using izanagi for the creation of the tailed beasts. As also stated in the manga when kurama made an allusion to the sage of the six paths seal. Perhaps the sage knew that someone will one day be able to control the kyuubi. Last thing, it's possible that the sage name is Uzumaki.

Please sign your posts next time so I know who is talking to me, thanks. --Elveonora (talk) 03:25, January 28, 2012 (UTC)

Sharigan Evolution
The sharingan first evolvement is the mangekyo sharingan, I guess for one to have mangekyo sharingan evolve to obtain the rinnegan should have the two bloodlines that of the senju and uchiha, as an example, both tobi and madara, whereas sasuke won't be able to in his case. Furthermore, the rinnegan have diffrent eye patterns as shown by the sage of the six paths eldest son or could it be that's another evolution of the rinnegan but i don't lend credibility to that, though it may not be impossible. But that prove one thing there is actually two rinnegan types.

Same as above --Elveonora (talk) 03:25, January 28, 2012 (UTC)

while it's almost a general agreement that uchiha bloodline + senju bloodline = rinnegan, there's one thing that was overlooked; the two who have awakened their rinnegans were either on the brink of death, madara, or at the height of so much emotion, nagato. this coincides as to how obito awakened his sharingan.

i'm also asserting that madara gave sharingan eyes to nagato and hoped that he will be able to evolve that to rinnegan. either that or after madara evolved his eyes into rinnegan, shortly before dying, he have someone transplanted his now eyes to nagato.

what about danzo? well, he removed the senju part long before he was on the brink of death that's why he wasn't able to evolve shisui's sharingan to rinnegan. who knows what might've happened if he was still able to maintain hashirama's cell up to the time of his death. 203.147.106.246 (talk) 10:06, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

I think another part of gaining the Rinnegan is having the Eternal Mangekyo as well as the Senju bloodline, which would explain how Nagato could've awoken the rinnegan if Madara gave him his Sharingan, so Danzo wouldn't be able to get a Rinnegan regardless of what happened to him.--TricksterKing (talk) 10:38, February 16, 2012 (UTC)

yeah, if madara gave him his rinnegan-activated sharingan before he died, but if he only gave nagato a normal sharingan from an uchiha, then danzo will have a chance to evolve shisui's sharingan to a rinnegan provided he still has his hashirama-infused right arm.

by the way, where's the issue number when it was said that tobi has a mangekyo? even when he is using his space-time jutsu, the tomoe of his sharingan never changes, it's just normal. 203.147.106.4 (talk) 02:41, February 17, 2012 (UTC)

Re: yin-yang image
Not a problem ^_^--Cerez365™ 19:25, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

Re: Zetsu Stuff
From what I understand when that was added to his background was post Shizune and Sakura's autopsy. I'm assuming that it'd be natural for White Zetsu to have been made the same way or such but I'm not entirely sure. It'd probably be best to bring it up on the talk page.--Cerez365™ 19:53, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

Ah, but you're the one with the issue. I'm a bit nonplussed about it. There'd be no conviction in my post.--Cerez365™ 20:13, March 9, 2012 (UTC)

Edit Summary
In my edit summary I said unresponsive talkpage, reverting it without responding on the talkpage is not going to resolve the talkpage discussion. — S im A nt 03:40, April 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * Kurama is a mass of chakra, not a lump of flesh, when chakra is removed all at once, it doesn't shrink and drag across the ground. The manga depicts it as the smaller foot inside a larger footprint with no connected pressure points from the weight of kurama. — S im A nt 12:48, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

Piping links
You know, there's a much neater way to pipe links (have the link to something you want, but having the link say something else) than what you're doing. What you're doing is what is necessary to do for links that are from out of the wiki (though there's a middle ground way to link to articles from other wikis, I don't know how to do that. For example, you just linked some technique articles in Gaara's talk page.
 * You're doing " [random-url what you want to say] ".
 * When using it for articles of the wiki, the way to do it is " what you want to say ". You can even make it like " what you want to say " if you want it to link to a specific subsection of that article. Namespace is only required it the page you're linking is not a main article, for example, a user page or a talk page. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:23, April 6, 2012 (UTC)

Re: gun jumping?
Because I believe it's still possible that Orochimaru may have simply been associated with Danzō as opposed to being an Anbu Root member. Not that the opposite isn't impossible. That's why I'd prefer to leave it a bit more ambiguous until next week. In any case something like that should be in his introduction.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 20:49, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

Orale... that's a lot. Root Stuff Listing Kabuto as being affiliated with Root makes sense to me, just not the Anbu rank.
 * I'm not sure if those were Anbu cloaks or just cloaks. If so, why no masks? Though an Anbu that Kabuto was speaking to later in Kiri I think had the same one on. It's likely that Oro was an ANBU since it does it fact suit him (imagine that tongue sticking out of a mask >.<!)
 * Not too sure. Danzō's plan was always to rebuild Konoha from the embers of war the way he wanted it to be (or something like that)
 * It is possible that Orochimaru just knew about Root and its operations. He doesn't seem like the type that would have an issue with underhanded things. Which may be why he spoke so openly about stuff.
 * Oro was an orphan yes, but at that time he was being trained by Hiruzen. It's not like he was an unattached youth.
 * He doesn't strike me as emotionless, just lacking empathy. He's shown plenty of emotions in my opinion. I also believe there are possibly people that joined Root of their own volition. Clansmen for example cannot be orphans unless their clan is destroyed.

I have 0 clue about the brainwashing thing. Timelines confuse me.

As for Nonō, I think it's possible that she simply didn't remember him. It seems to me either she lost herself as Danzō said people do on those long term missions or she's a really good actress. Maybe Danzō did do something to her or maybe it was Iwagakure dunno really.

I did like the chapter. I'm not like the readers that complain when there's no fighting and what not. I like back-stories and flashbacks that build characters and stuff. Though I was a little disappoint that there was no Itachi T_T♥--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 22:49, April 18, 2012 (UTC)

I think that there is enough to list him as a Root. Danzō freely talked about Root stuff in front of him. If he was concerned that Hiruzen not know about his dealing with Root, I don't think he would have done that. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:20, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

My guess is, Snake-Face's (Orochimaru) a member of the Foundation, and so is Doctor Snakes (Kabuto). Why Kabuto didn't lose his emotions? Dunno. Maybe 'cause there's no one close to him. As for Nono, dunno why she didn't remember him, but I say that we shouldn't place her as dead yet. Why? 'Cause Kabuto tried to save her. Next week, we'll know whether he suceeded or not. And no, you're not the only two who liked the chapter. Who else? Yours truly. Actually, I'm gettin' irritaited for not seein' the battle with Tobi. (Sighs) What a drag. X29 15:27 April 19 2012.

Road to ninja
TV Tokyo released the plot for the movie. I got the translation from this article on Saiyan Island.--Deva 27 18:29, April 19, 2012 (UTC)

Re: Please. you better be trolling me
I think I've said everything I wanted to in the edit summary but again: --Cerez 365 ™(talk) 11:02, May 10, 2012 (UTC)
 * There are at least three burets filtering blood into jars
 * We only say Kabuto take a jar with Orochimaru's remains from the centre of the room
 * He said in 585 that after that, he kept adding stuff to himself
 * Yes he does have the DNA of the Sound Five and possibly the members of Taka as well but that still doesn't mean that he mixed them all together and injected them into himself all at once . Apparently you're forgetting the scene with Orochimaru's remains and the conversation Kabuto had with Naruto, Yamato and Hinata.
 * In your theory that person shows blood increases meaning all of it is mixed in there why would you exclude Sasori and Sasuke? That's being selective just to prove your point. If you're going to use that then everything has to be included: Sasori, Sasuke and the other people behind the Sound Four.
 * So no Gooby, pls I'm not trolling you. The information is represented either way, so what's your problem?

Re: Convo

 * Mmkay
 * Mmkay
 * Actually, you didn't. Here's what you said:
 * "Fire natured chakra is not always fire release"
 * Yes, it is. Fire Chakra = Fire Release. The same goes for everyrhing else. There's never been anything that contradicts that. The way you worded what you said (whether intentional or not), you said that there is such a thing as Fire Chakra existing independently of Fire Release, which is false.


 * As I believe Cerez once told you, you'd be surprised at the exceptions people will make to get what they want. It was pointed out and said by BOTH Kabuto and Madara that in his lifetime, Madara had obtained Hashirama's power; there's no getting around that.


 * Because you said (and I quote):
 * "So in order to perform Yin Release (genjutsu) one has to use Spiritual Energy/Yin chakra to transform it into effect"
 * Yin Chakra is Yin Release. Plain and simple. Spiritual Energy is not it. Heck, seeing as it's chakra, Yin Release also has Physical Energy in it as well.


 * Most likely, though I didn't actually say that. Kabuto postulated that Madara had obtained Hashirama's DNA/power (which Madara admitted, being why he fought that last battle). When Kabuto presented his theory, it was then that Madara decided to look at his chest. That's an obvious indication that he knew what Kabuto had done, otherwise he would have had no knowledge that would have made him look at his chest. Skitts (talk) 02:12, May 20, 2012 (UTC)

Yin and Yang chakra are a bit tricky because we know little about it. The confusion in this seems to be physical energy/spiritual energy and Yang chakra/Yin chakra. The way I understand, regular chakra, without any sort of nature transformation, is made up of equal parts of physical energy and spiritual energy. In order to become a "anything Release", it has to suffer nature transformation. However, we learned that Minato split Kurama's Yin chakra from its Yang chakra. That can mean either that chakra has an inherent yin and yang quality, that is manipulated through nature transformation into Yin and Yang Releases, or that Minato applied nature transformation to Kurama's chakra. I thing that the first option makes most sense. I don't think it makes sense for Yang Release=physical energy and Yin Release=spiritual energy, because a Release can only be done with actual chakra, and basic chakra requires both. I think that Yin and Yang Releases are done when the ratio of physical energy and spiritual energy is modified, so it's no longer 50/50. This makes sense with the definition of chakra. With that in mind, I think that Yin chakra or Yang chakra, in the inherent quality that I said earlier, can only exist after the chakra has been formed out of physical and spiritual energy. Physical and spiritual energy by themselves are not Yang chakra and Yin chakra as far as I understand, and only make up chakra, which them can be manipulated into Yin or Yang. Yin can only be Yin if there is a Yang and vice versa, so I think that pre-chakra moulding, there isn't yin and yang, only post- chakra moulding, which can them be manipulated into a Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:14, May 20, 2012 (UTC)

The thing is, we're still in the dark about what Yin Release and Yang Release actually are. That's why I raised the possibility in my explanation above as it having a yin/yang potential to nature manipulation-less chakra. There's probably some piece of information we have yet to be given that would set things right, but with the current information, the only way to make things resolve would require a retcon of concepts. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:07, May 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * And there's also the positive black chakra and negative white chakra from tailed beasts Killer B talked about. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:16, May 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * I don't remember the exact chapter, but I think it was 510-ish or 520-ish. Definitely after Konan died. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:25, May 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * Not a typo. There's even a ShounenSuki translation about those chakra types at the Tailed Beast Ball article. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:41, May 23, 2012 (UTC)
 * I remember there was a back and forth editing back then about this, but I think that image stayed because it was the only image that was known for a fact to have something to do with Yang, be it chakra or Release. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:06, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

I understood what the chapter explained. First, the user acts, getting a sensation about doing something, goes on doing other stuff, and then does something that mirrors the sensation of the first action. Izanami strings that sequence into a loop in the opponents mind. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:28, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

The characters are thrown in a loop, the thing that is made into a loop is based on the sensations that were overlapped to create the loop, some stuff obviously changes in between. The changes aren't significant, so they don't alter the loop. Only if they change completely, the loop is broken, if they accept their destiny, as Itachi put it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:46, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Kabuto is fighting an illusionary Itachi and Sasuke, Kabuto is actually just a sitting duck as he is. Tsukuyomi does seem like a more powerful genjutsu, but I think that the eye goes blind from Izanami because that's the power necessary to overrun someone who's using Izanagi, even if one isn't using it against someone who is using Izanagi. And since Kabuto had the brille covering his eyes, Tsukuyomi wouldn't work, since he was blocking the light. Izanami doesn't require eye contact. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:51, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the support
Thanks for the support for my edit on the Susanoo Sword page.Undominanthybrid (talk) 17:08, May 27, 2012 (UTC)

Re: Izuna Edit
Nope, not that I could find at least. Everywhere that spoke about them said that they were the first to awaken the Mangekyō Sharingan but it doesn't define who awakened it before whom of the two.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 13:13, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

Possibly, or I could have overlooked something.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 13:53, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

Re: what do you think ? ; D
Never been one to speculate on who Tobi is exactly since I believe that he is exactly who he says he is. It is possible that he could be Izuna somehow though that image doesn't lend that much credibility to it though, because that image of Tobi removing his mask could be stretched across a lot of people's faces to make it look like he resembles them. Also, something Kabuto said about Tobi betraying Madara doesn't sit well with the way Izuna was described as being but in time, Kishimoto will reveal everything.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 15:35, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

Though I don't believe this for a second, from the theories I've read and such, I would be most disappointed if Tobi through some odd turn of events turned out to be Obito or Kagami for example '~' People with no link to Madara except ancestry or motive to do it. Izuna's only motive I can think of would be that he's devoted to his brother but truly I'm leaning most towards Tobi being the equivalent of Hashirama's Living Clone given life.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 16:22, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

I know there seems to be a lot of similarities between the two that people have pieced together over the years, motives and theories as to why Tobi is Izuna. But if it's all the same, I'll just wait on Kishimoto because to be honest, I don't have that much of an interest in who Tobi is, just who I hope he isn't.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 17:35, June 14, 2012 (UTC)

Lool. These things just seem so ridiculous to me that's why I don't pay attention to theories.

Someone would must have mentioned Minato being Dan's and or Tsunade's child by now between Tsunade, the adoring villagers, the people who feared and loved him outside the village and Shizune. Also, Katō→ Namikaze? Them looking anything alike is just due to the fact that it's the same person drawing all of them. Naruto is related to Hashirama but from what is known currently, it's in the most distant and roundabout way that I can think of. Also don't think Tsunade is Minato's mother, she would have had to be pregnant during the Second World War and still went out to battle o.O?
 * "8" Madara did suggest that the ruler-ship of Konoha was dominated by Senju for years but what is the genetic link between Sarutobi and Senju? That could very well mean that only people trained/favoured by Senju were being selected as Hokage depicted by Hiruzen being chosen from an early age and being trained by Hashirama and from there, Sarutobi taught Jiraiya who passed on the same principles to Minato. So Minato inherited Senju's will not genetically, but through teaching.
 * True Minato and a million other random people could have Senju blood.
 * Orrr she has no family left to inherit the necklace directly so she gave it to someone who she believed inherited her grandfather, brother and lover's will to protect the village? That is not to say Naruto isn't related to her, because technically, he is.
 * "10" Kushina Uzumaki? Wait... this can't be a recent thread '~'
 * "11" That's already been established. The same could be said of Jiraiya and Orochimaru's relationship and how it culminated.
 * She was inebriated when she was talking to Jiraiya there.

For the Madara bit, I'd chalk that up to the whole same artist theory again simply because I've seen it before. I personally still think Darui and Killer B's Cousin have common features. If they are related meh, that's some Batman stuff. Any way it's not like these people aren't related through a common ancestor but I really wouldn't put that much into Madara being closely related to Nagato.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 16:09, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

It would be interesting since people seem more open to the idea of Minato marrying his own relative as opposed to the outrage that greets the Hyūga marry within their own clan. As for the Nagato thing, nah, still don't see it. Funny though.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 21:09, June 16, 2012 (UTC)

why is there no badges.hi i am sarah nice to meet ya. aminath sarah

did'nt you saw my highlighet signature? i can make you one! like elveonora

Re: 67.253.195.187 / 86.166.27.205
Do not feed the trolls. Ignore them and list them for blocking here. Feeding them just makes them want to continue trolling people. --Speysider Talk Page 21:21, July 1, 2012 (UTC)

question
hey elveonora...i don't how to put this question,..why is it that when i'm signing my post and then read it afterward, my name is co;ored red(meaning my page does not exist even thoug i'm already signed in..can you help me about that?) Saeyatachi (talk) 02:23, July 12, 2012 (UTC)Saeyatachi

yeah...but like i said earlier,i'm really new here. so how could i make a user page?Saeyatachi (talk) 02:41, July 12, 2012 (UTC)Saeyatachi

now i get it..thanksSaeyatachi (talk) 02:47, July 12, 2012 (UTC)Saeyatachi

Orochimaru's Juinjutsu
I'm pretty sure the function of the seal is separate from orochimaru's chakra's presence.

The function is similar to that in Jugo, who does not have Orochimaru's chakra at all.

When Orochimaru mentioned he put his own senjutsu chakra in it, I believe he meant he put in enough chakra to constitute an entire human being, instead of splitting his original chakra amount off. This means each of the seals contains sufficient chakra to form a whole Orochimaru by himself, instead of having his main chakra/soul split into pieces voldemort style.

Re: cursed seals
No real reason. When I was goin through it parts of it sounded better in past tense in my head at least.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 11:04, July 12, 2012 (UTC)

Ossūūū (-.\\\) --Cerez 365 ™(talk) 11:20, July 12, 2012 (UTC)

Conduct in Sage Mode discussion
Elveonora, despite agreeing with you on the topic, I must call your attention to your attitude towards SuperSaiyaMan. Him disagreeing with your opinion is no excuse for you to accusing him of having "some kind of retardation/disability either psychical or physical", as well as calling him ignorant or retarded just for calling it or because one doesn't agree with you. That's harassment. Disagree with him all you want, discuss with him all you want, but be civil. There are lots of ways to point out either logical faults in arguments, say he's being ignorant to a fact if you must, but you're exceeding yourself. Get a grip. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:07, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
 * Nothing he has done there is an excuse to call him names. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:07, July 13, 2012 (UTC)

Re: yo
Yeah I mean it's not too boring, but there's nothing I feel like discussing in particular. Nothing special happenings. Hopefully the Ten-Tails will be amazing enough to change that. :P --GoDai (talk) 01:37, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

Ah well, I kinda hate myself for not doing anything unless I'm quite sure of it. There is absolutely no way for me to guess who Tobi is... I mean there is a good possibility that he's Izuna but Kishimoto may surprise us. I'm still waiting for more natures to be revealed :P --GoDai (talk) 05:27, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

Kekkei Tōta... I just think we don't know enough yet, although I have a few loose ideas. About the chapter... yeah at least it confirmed the Gedo thing. Hopefully the Ten-Tails can use special natures and stuff, or something... LOL --GoDai (talk) 23:47, July 19, 2012 (UTC)

Mm yeah I felt that the transition from mass of pure hate to fellow reliable ally could have been done a little better. Kurama seems to imply that the Ten-Tails is still a destructive and malicious being, although I personally felt that the Ten-Tails may not be pure evil as it is commonly described. As the progenitor of all, it has more of a chaotic alignment, and in a way, it is only carrying out its role in the universe, whether it thinks so or not. If it truly is the beginning of all, it must be the first thing to have existed, which I believe is because it was born from chaos itself... or some weird stuff like that. From what the Sage said, it seems the Sage had a plan involving the rebirth of the Ten-Tails as well, considering how he said that they would become one entity again. I'm guessing that by splitting the Ten-Tails' massive hatred into nine smaller pieces, it would be easier to "purify" the hatred, and when the time came when they would unite, they would no longer be a creature of hatred. Not the most likely, but it's the one theory that I can back up as much. --GoDai (talk) 05:33, July 20, 2012 (UTC)

Well the creator also being the destroyer is actually not too rare in myths, as many creation myths often involve a giant (or something similar in other cases) just walking around on an empty earth or sea, dragging continents into place and such. Like I said, if it's literally the beginning, I say it was simply born from chaos, because something is bound to arise from chaos in such myths. However, if the "first thing" story is an exaggeration and it actually came later on, I would say it was born from the massive hatred collecting up in places of war, disease, famine, and death - Hatred between men. By sealing the beast, the Sage would have also symbolically proven that hatred can be overcome, and gave the people of the world hope. In term's of Kurama's change, although weird, I would have to say that it was a purely moral struggle involving him and Naruto (Although the chakra purification theory has some basis, I think Kishi would not do that because it somewhat takes away the moral impact.). In general, I think Kishi was trying to say that the Tailed Beasts all being called masses of hatred was just a product of mankind's prejudice, making them more misunderstood and violent. Also, I also thought the same thing about the Ten-Tails being the origin of chakra and all, although I still think the Sage had some knowledge of chakra, likely resultant from the beast (The sealing technique, you know?). That's also the same reason why I am looking forward to the Ten-Tails fight - Hopefully its powers are more unique and special than just massive waves of energy and tearing up the earth and stuff (I hate when mangas have the most epic fights with such boring abilities). I have no idea who this "omniscient person" is. In fact, I don't really get what's exactly going on; Is Sasuke's gang ditching the war? I mean, of course I understand what happened, but I want a little more information first. Besides, I don't really make theories unless I'm pretty sure. --GoDai (talk) 00:21, July 21, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, Naruto has not always been the best story in terms of plotholes and such, but I'm sure Bleach is worse. Also, if you read the wikipedia pages for Daidarabocchi and Ippon-Datara, you can see that if the Ten-Tails is a similar case, it may be creating the geography of the world unintentionally (footprints became lakes, he split mountains by accident, etc.). So the Ten-Tails may simply be walking around the world and destroying things not because it hates humans, but just because it feels like it. It would represent the uncontrollable and unpredictable forces of nature: true "chaos." By sealing the beast inside him, the Sage would have brought "order" to the world, by making the beast's power more beneficial to the world. I think the beast being called a "god" is an exaggeration, as with all things called gods in most manga. Also, I think that even if Naruto's chakra purified it, there's still a moral side to it, since Naruto's chakra is "warm and bright" due to his personality and ideology. By the way, I'm actually expecting nothing but a roaring monster... :P --GoDai (talk) 22:53, July 21, 2012 (UTC)


 * Hmm I was never much of a creator, but rather more of an observer and analyzer, so I can't really say how I would end this - I would have never made such complex characters such as Kurama or Sasuke, both of whom are portrayed as evil beyond repair and then attempted to be fixed.
 * I would say Naruto seemingly has the ability to bring pure "goodness" into people's hearts, even getting Tailed Beasts onto his side. He was able to stay optimistic in the darkest childhood, and his ideals of placing willpower and perseverance above revenge and cynicism carry on the Sage's vision for the future of the world.
 * Honestly, I've been trying to let my mind go of the element business for a while. I did this before, and I was able to see the matter from a much more objective view, and come up with better ideas. I'm sure I'll have something soon.
 * The Moon's Eye Plan is something I agree and disagree with at the same time. The idea is to make everyone think the same thing - to attain agreement at the sacrifice of individuality. In Madara's and Tobi's philosophy, it matters not who casts the illusion because either way this assimilation of minds will take place. You would think that you dislike the plan, but once you're under it, you probably won't think of rebelling because you can't. You just can't think anything on your own because every single organism on the planet thinks the same thing as Madara or Tobi, and don't feel happy, sad, or angry about the whole matter. It's weird, but it makes sense to me. I mean, it's not presented as being right, but Kishi makes several explorations of fictional ideas of world peace, which I think is one of the better things in Naruto.
 * I personally loved Orochimaru's goal of obtaining immortality to learn all the jutsu of the world. It's a shame that he didn't get very close to that goal. --GoDai (talk) 00:45, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

Explanation of Tobi's eyes, not a TOBI ID theory
The reason why Tobi uses/used a Mangekyou-like techniques, yet has been shown using just a regular Sharingan is simple. People take it as a fact that he, Tobi possess Hashirama's DNA/cells. That isn't right IMO, he just has some Zetsu mass/goo that was created from a flower that originates from a Wood Release technique/Hashi Plant Clone and that allows him to use Izanagi. The original Zetsu can't use the Wood Release IMO, only after Yamato enhancement the clones were capable of such. Kabuto made it clear that Danzo was a prototype and Edo Madara a perfected one, with Yamato being kind of clone.

I bet that Tobi has/had the same technique as Shisui and used it to control Yagura (obviously) and Kurama. The reason why his Sharingan doesn't take on a shape of a Mangekyou, [and how he could control a perfect host and a tailed beast] is because Kotoamatsukami is on the decade cooldown.

Just like Shisui, he had the power in both eyes. One was sacrificed for Izanagi though, the other is on cooldown. Thus Tobi's original MS technique being Kotoamatsukami, but he also gained a SIMILAR technique to Kamui through training.

So as long as the genjutsu is on cooldown, his Sharingan eye won't show up as a Mangekyou while using his Space-Time Migration. You ask, why didn't we see a Mangekyou while he had control over Kurama? Well, because he used his left eye that was hidden under a mask.

Hope it makes sense > opinions please.--Elveonora (talk) 15:56, August 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * No offence, but I'd rather not. As i've said before, i'm not a big fan of the whole theorising thing, I'd simply prefer to wait and see. Interesting theory though.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 16:51, August 5, 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid you're wrong. Why you ask? 'Cause just 'cause you used Kotoamatsukami (Or whatever its name is) doesn't mean you can't use the Mangekyou Sharingan during the cooldown. --X29 17:00, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

The crow was commanded to use Kotoamatsukami the minute Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan is used. Keeping the MS on would probably waste the crow's little chakra. --X29 18:43, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

"Shisui's eye won't activate for another ten years. You won't be able to use it against Sasuke" -Itachi Uchiha. So, I guess you're probably right. But I doubt that one could use Kotoamatsukami on multiple people. --X29 19:09, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

An other reason for why I think Tobi wanted Shisui's eye, for is not just because a decade is time too long till he could use it again, but also I think that to create an Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, the 2 pairs of eyes do not necessary have to be of siblings/close blood relatives. But as long as the "host" (an Uchiha with blind MS) had the same eye powers as the "host eyes" (of Uchiha's with "light" in his eyes) then an EMS shall be created.--Elveonora (talk) 19:43, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

Let's say he used Kotoamatsukami on Kurama. That gives him 10 years to cooldown. I'm pretty sure he controlled Yagura in the 15 years period, and probably not after a year or two from the Kurama incident, to make Ao's and Kisame's ages sensible. Then, by the time of the war, he'd only be able to use it just once. --X29 20:32, August 5, 2012 (UTC)

Language, and I still don't think Tobi used Kotoamatsukami, but I'll leave you with your theory. As for the Izuna theory, I'm very sure you do know that Izuna lost both of his eyes for his brother, so discussing it with you would be useless and such a drag. --X29 01:18, August 6, 2012 (UTC)