Talk:Substitute Technique

Name
Page 15 of chapter 487 Zetsu said he used the Shapeshifting Technique. Should we put that as a parent technique, or is this substitute just a Shapeshifting technique? Yatanogarasu, 21:17, March 17 2010 (UTC)
 * Thats a mistranslation.--Deva 27 (talk) 04:23, March 18, 2010 (UTC)

Should we mention (White Half) on the users of Jutsu, since Dark Half hasn't used it?--&lt;&lt;-Rage-&gt;&gt; (talk) 15:19, January 1, 2011 (UTC)

Theory
I have a theory/question. Does this technique change the actual appeareance of the user, or it only allows them to copy the chakra of a different being, and then the user uses a different transformation technique to change their physical appeareance? The way it was disscussed in the last chapter makes it look that way--Kind-Hearted-One (talk) 20:54, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

As far as I know, it's just a Transformation Technique that also transforms the chakra to make a perfect copy. Whatever the normal Transformation Technique does, this one is pretty much the same, and then add the target's chakra to the aspect. Yatanogarasu 21:22, May 25, 2011 (UTC)

Anime version
Shouldn't we add in the Trivia section that anime team has retconed the appearance of Zetsu clone that used Substitute jutsu? Because Zetsu's clones lack the flytrap (the green ones has the alternative on their body, but still not the same), only originals (both Black and White) have it. Faust-RSI (talk) 12:12, June 27, 2011 (UTC)
 * indeed we should.--Cerez365™ Hyūga Symbol.svg 12:30, June 27, 2011 (UTC)

Two Questions
firstly in the viz translation tobi describes this technique as allowing zetsu to make a perfect copy of anyone he's ever touched once. by once does that mean it only works once or that he only needs to have touched the person once for it to work? secondly this technique is said to use chakra of the target and aply the transformation technique, does that mean zetsu's real body can use this as well?98.26.240.179 (talk) 23:12, May 4, 2012 (UTC)
 * He only needs to touch any one once. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:19, May 5, 2012 (UTC)

Question
A bit confused on something. Wasn't it stated that although they can copy people's chakra signature and appearance, they can't copy a person's techniques? --Cerez 365 ™(talk) 12:20, September 14, 2012 (UTC)

I don't know. I think they can use the person's techniques, for example.. So yeah i think that little tidbit of info. should be removed cause it seems like they can use the techniques of the person their imitating.71.71.58.70 (talk) 12:31, September 14, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan
 * One of them copied Neji's byakugan, after it had infiltrated the A.S.F camp.
 * The one of Kisame was about to use the water release: great shark bullet, right before it got beheaded by A and B.
 * And in the most recent anime episode, a clone that had transformed into Hinata had used the 8 trigrams vacuum palm.

It just strikes me as odd that all these clones were transforming into shinobi with abilities and all they've done is stab people with kunai. It's all good to be "covert" and what not, but it still strikes me as peculiar that they've yet to use these abilities. I also could have sworn someone said that though they can copy a person's appearance, they can't do the same with their abilities.--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 12:41, September 14, 2012 (UTC)
 * The clone never actually used the Byakugan, just said it would.
 * But again it never used it. The only thing we saw that clone do, is fuse with Samehada which believed Kisame was it. All the abilities it used after that (assuming it switched with Kisame some time before the transformation) was that of Samehada.
 * This episode is why I brought it up, I think it's fodder. Yes they have the person's body, but their minds etc are an entirely different thing. Don't even get me started on Yamato knowing such detailed intel on people ( '-')
 * It could be similar to the Shapeshifting Technique, they wants to conserve chakra so they can keep killing. I'm looking over the chapters now. Jacce | Talk | Contributions 12:45, September 14, 2012 (UTC)

It's not that they can't, they just don't know how to use some of the original person's techniques. Like a Zetsu Naruto Clone wouldn't be able to make a Rasengan cause the former doesn't know how to do so--Elveonora (talk) 21:58, September 15, 2012 (UTC)
 * I thought of this possibility as well, which would make copying a kekkei genkai even worse.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 10:36, September 16, 2012 (UTC)

Oh. I just saw a trivia point. A clone imitated Hinata's Byakugan in the manga so I guess that clears it up?--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 10:43, September 16, 2012 (UTC)

parent technique
Shouldn't Transformation Technique also be one?--Elveonora (talk) 19:04, May 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * I doubt it. I believe that instead of parent, it should be related. I mean, its entirely physical, not just chakra based, you know? JaZZBaND (talk) 19:06, May 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * Should Parasite Clone also be related? Since the army clones use this without creating more copies.--BeyondRed (talk) 21:52, May 5, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yea, it's not like Zetsu HAS to use parasite clones to use the jutsu. JaZZBaND (talk) 22:15, May 5, 2013 (UTC)

Copying Memories too?
So, after watching the Yota episodes again,i noticed that the Zetsu clones might actually be able to also copy the memories of their target with, this technique. I mean, the one that encountered Sakura remembered her and they all oddly, flicked Kiba, Naruto, Sakura, and Ino-Shika-Cho, on the head to have them remember him. With the exception of the one who encountered Naruto, do you think the others copied Yota's memories too? KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 17:06, July 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Doubtful, they were either somehow remotely controlled by Yota or Kabuto, or they were just one hell of good actors. Remember Yota stayed with Orochimaru and Kabuto all along, perhaps they learned of all the things from him--Elveonora (talk) 17:11, July 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Plus, the clone that impersonated Neji didn't know about TonTon being a pig even though Neji himself is from Konoha. I'm going with what Elveonora said or it's just something the anime did for the extra effect. Joshbl56  17:14, July 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yea, ok I see what you guys are saying. The only reason I had an inquired about this was b/c it's a filler lol. Senju_Symbol.svgKotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 17:51, July 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't worry about it. Filler likes to make up their own rules as they go. Joshbl56  17:53, July 1, 2013 (UTC)
 * Don't know if that is entirely true, these Zetsu clones showed on several occasions to have selective memories from their victims, with Shino, with Neji and other similar cases. This isn't a subject that we should take lightly. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 01:40, July 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * I looked back through chapter 539-540 and the only conversation that the zetsu clone that posed as neji had to have known someone already was with tonton, which he messed up on. Do they know peoples memories in the anime? Joshbl56  04:58, July 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * What about the cave filler? They recognized each other by having to speak only what the real ones could know or something, I don't remember its result that well though--Elveonora (talk) 12:26, July 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * Filler. That one word kind of derails your whole argument. We've seen that filler episodes don't follow the manga's rules before. If you feel like it's useful to mention that the clones in the anime seem to be able to gain access to their memories as well then I won't stop you (since I don't watch the anime). I would just rather not have filler content in the main article when the manga has shown either contradictory or no information on such things. (sorry if this came off as mean or whatever. Not a fan of filler episodes). Joshbl56  12:32, July 2, 2013 (UTC)

@Josh, is your response to me? I didn't agree with the memories part. The very opposite, I remember the cave filler's point was that zetsu clones don't possess memories of those they transform into, so if in Yota filler they do, it's contradictory by the anime itself not just manga--Elveonora (talk) 12:36, July 2, 2013 (UTC)

In the cave filler, the info Zetsu had was, by the end of the episode credited to have been stuff Yamato knew. How they got the info from Yamato is never said, but they got it from him. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:50, July 3, 2013 (UTC)

Stronger Variation
I believe that the WZA, boasts a stronger variation of the Subst. Technique. They have been able to assume forms that they have never come into contact with. For example, the recent episode with the Zetsu Soldier taking the form of Shino. We have never seen a Zetsu come into contact with Shino yet. What do you all think? KotoSenju (OldUser:JaZZBaND)-Talk-Contributions 14:35, July 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * @Koto this episode showed a lot of "errors", we shouldn't take this episode seriously when showing things that were never showed. Let's see what others think of this as well. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 16:47, July 23, 2013 (UTC)
 * Still that's a big assumption jumping from they've never come in physical contact with him to a heightened ability. I think the fact that it fought Shino and escaped while ridiculous because of the type of person Shino is, is supposed to be assumed here.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 19:23, July 23, 2013 (UTC)

Rounding up the Debate
Okay I think that where we are standing now (2016, with the manga completed), we can sort of round up the problem of Zetsu's clones... do they really copy techniques?

In my opinion yes, if they are genetic (because he copies form, aka genetic makeup) or simple (he copies chakra, aka chakra nature and derived jutsu). But if they are complex and need learning, they probably won't be able to use it. For instance I don't see Zetsu being able to use Dust Release for example, since it isn't genetic and it does need long learning-steep. Same goes for Kinjutsu or Biju-branched jutsu.

What do you guys think?

ThemLips (talk) 20:17, July 5, 2016 (UTC)