Talk:Sage Transformation

Senninka
Are you guys aware that Jūgo calls whatever he took from Kabuto Senninka and that he also says that "Orochimaru undid Kabuto's Senninka"? "Senninka" is just a term for the transformation a body does when he absorbs natural energy. Seelentau 愛議 23:09, February 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * Good morning? I once attempted to explain it to them to no avail, they still smoking the same old Orochimaru DNA weed. The reason why Kabuto looked like that was because he was using Senninka--Elveonora (talk) 23:50, February 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * I have no memory of this dicussion. Do whats needed.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 23:57, February 13, 2014 (UTC)
 * There's not much to be done to tell the truth. It just seems to be wrongly understood that the way Kabuto appeared during the war was a result of him mutating from Orochimaru's DNA while in fact Jugo credited it to Sage Transformation.

It's true Orochimaru's cells were taking over his body, but he seemingly offscreen won that fight and reversed the process. What was happening were literary Orochimaru's cells replacing his own, not mutating him but that obviously didn't finish, otherwise he wouldn't be among the living anymore. His appearance in the war wasn't because of that, but his own consent. Also I believe it's time we finally separate Sage Transformation and Jugo Clan's power to passively absorb natural energy, they aren't the same. The former is an application of their bodies' special ability to transform, natural energy is just a fuel to that.--Elveonora (talk) 00:47, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

Yep. ST is nothing but an other term for Sennin Mode, Jūgo's clan has special bodies, which might or might not be a Kekkei Genkai. How Orochimaru and his Juin are related to it is what I'm gonna work out this weekend. Seelentau 愛議 08:00, February 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wait, does that mean all the body changes one gets from Orochimaru's cursed seals are Senninka? Like the other cursed seal users? Do the changes body transformations Jiraiya and Naruto go through count as Senninka? Urg, a new databook has never felt more necessary than it does now. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 13:56, February 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, what the Juin does to the body is called Juinka. What Naruto and Jiraiya do is Senninka, yes. Seelentau 愛議 13:59, February 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * But isn't what Jūgo goes through, the source of those changes, Senninka, that was only called Juinka in Oro's test subjects? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:27, February 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes. So? Seelentau 愛議 14:44, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

Wouldn't that technically mean that Orochimaru's cursed seals would have to have this listed as a parent? Also, since Jiraiya and Naruto do this through Sage Mode, would SM be a parent to this, or would Jiraiya and Naruto simply be added as users of this? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:10, February 14, 2014 (UTC)
 * I can't say for sure right now. My minions gather all available information for me and I'm trying to work everything out tomorrow. As I understand it now, Senninka = Sennin Mode, Juinka = Senninka through a Juin. Seelentau 愛議 15:41, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

@Seelentau, I don't exactly agree, I smell some confusion here. Allow me to explain the way I understand it:
 * Sage Transformation/Senninka is possible thanks to an enzyme found within Jugo and his clan (the same enzyme used in Curse Marks) which causes a bodily reaction when fueled with natural energy/senjutsu chakra. It refers entirely to the mutations/shapeshifting, so no, it's not synonymous with Sage Mode, it's an almost entirely different thing altogether.
 * Jugo and his clan's bodies also passively absorb natural energy, it's separate from Sage Transformation.
 * Curse Marks are essentially a fuuinjutsu/juinjutsu version of the enzyme which allows mutations/shapeshifting + Orochimaru's Senjutsu chakra which powers it.
 * The only problem I see is if should Jugo be also listed as a user of Sage Mode, because when he uses Sage Transformation/Senninka, he is using senjutsu chakra. The way I see it, the act of balancing the natural energy their bodies constantly absorb results in activation of Sage Transformation/Senninka, so you could say it's a Mutant Sage Mode.
 * Sage Transformation is a parent to Curse Marks, I thought it already was listed? So is Sage Mode.
 * Kinda offtopic, but I find articles such as Body Absorption, Chakra Blast Cannons etc. to be pointless, I think all of his feats should be merged with this article.--Elveonora (talk) 16:50, February 14, 2014 (UTC)

Alright, I think I can explain it:

The source of everything is the Ryūchidō. By training one's own body there, one can attain the same power Jūgō's clan has. Their special body fluids allow them to absorb natural energy. The resulting transformation is called Senninka in Jūgō's village, we know it under the name Sennin Mode. Jūgō even refers to Kabuto's Sennin Mode as Senninka. The transformation caused by the Juin is called Juinka. The Juin itself is a seal with a special enzyme that causes the same Senninka in normal persons. Basically, Senninka, Juinka and Sennin Mode are the same. Senninka is the basic transformation, Juinka is the basic transformation, only caused by a Juin, Sennin Mode is the basic transformation with control over the natural energy. Seelentau 愛議 15:12, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's quite some guess let me tell you. We've never been told that Jugo has ever trained there not that his clan is located in the cave, how did you manage to come to such a bizarre conclusion? Again, the presence of special bodily fluid/enzyme alone doesn't make senninka and sennin modo the same. I agree they are using Sage Mode when using Sage Transformation, but those using Sage Mode aren't necessarily using Sage Transformation. The mere fact Jugo and his clan have limitless transformation and barely resemble any normal animals is big of a difference.--Elveonora (talk) 15:47, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * I never said that. I said that Jūgō's clan has a power which others can gain by training at the Ryūchidō. Jūgō calls Kabuto's Sennin Mode Senninka. Sennin Mode = Senninka, but Senninka =/= Sennin Mode. Seelentau 愛議 15:58, February 16, 2014 (UTC)


 * I think I get what you're saying. So, let me try to explain it in a way that might be less confusing. Correct me if I'm wrong? Sage Mode is, as we know, the balance of natural energy with normal chakra. In order to do this, a shinobi must train themselves to absorb natural energy. With that in mind, Jūgo's clan has a body that naturally does this for them. They naturally absorb natural energy without the training required, but, as a result, cannot balance it with their chakra, which results in berserk transformations. Hence, Sage Mode is a type of Sage Transformation, albeit a more complete one, but a Sage Transformation (as demonstrated by Jūgo and his clanmates) isn't necessarily Sage Mode. Now then, a Curse Seal Transformation artificially does what Jūgo's clan does: it allows the user to tap on and absorb natural energy without the training necessary to balance it with normal chakra, resulting in the dangerous, berserk actions that those under the Curse Seal often experience, along with the increase in power that Sage chakra grants.


 * That said, Seel is right. Jūgo does refer to Kabuto's form as Sage Transformation (Senninka), which suggests that the two are one in the same. The fact that Kabuto notes that Orochimaru discovered that the source of Jūgo's clan power is Ryūchi Cave lends credit to this, since we know that Jūgo's clan power comes from their genetics. The only logical supposition, then, is that Orochimaru realized that Sage Mode was simply a more balanced version of Sage Transformation and sought out the Ryūchi Cave to train to learn that ability. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 16:54, February 16, 2014 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Seelentau 愛議 17:18, February 16, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, then our understanding of it is in complete reverse, to me obviously Sage Mode =/= Sage Transformation, but Sage Transformation = Sage Mode. The enzyme itself wasn't ever stated to be what makes their bodies absorb natural energy but rather what allows them to transform. Same for Curse Mark, it doesn't absorb natural energy either, only changes the users' bodies, the Senjutsu chakra comes directly from Orochimaru. I think you miss the context, using Sage Transformation automatically means using Sage Mode, but Kabuto doesn't have to use Sage Transformation to use Sage Mode, he actually mastered that from White Snake Sage. What Jugo was referring to as Sage Transformation were Kabuto's snake characteristics. The evidence of that is that cancelling Sage Transformation made him turn human again, hence he was using it all the time even before actually activating true Sage Mode.--Elveonora (talk) 14:00, February 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * Kabuto's snake-like features were from Orochimaru's DNA. That was stated way back when we saw him for the first time after Orochimaru kicked the can, where only his face was transforming. Literally, the exact quote was "Orochimaru's remains are taking over his body." He even noted that it was Orochimaru that was causing the transformation, not an outside source. And it was the removal of Orochimaru's Sage chakra that caused him to revert forms, not anything to do with Jūgo's clan. So the supposition that you're suggesting, that somehow Kabuto's transformation is due to Jugō's clan's Sage Transformation is absolutely unfounded. Jūgo does call it Sage Transformation, but that's precisely mine and Seel's point. Sage Mode = Sennin Transformation in Jūgo's mind, but Sage Transformation =/= Sage Mode, because members of Jūgo's clan cannot balance natural energy that they are absorbing with their chakra, which is what Sage Mode is. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:23, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Kabuto got Orochimaru's Senjutsu chakra after taking hold of Anko, he long had snake features by the time, so taking away what was added later didn't have any effect on what had been there. Cancelling sage transformation didn't just take away his added horns but all the said snake features, hence they weren't from DNA but the transformation.--Elveonora (talk) 18:30, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Are you guys aware that it was never said that Kabuto got Oro's Senjutsu chakra? Seelentau 愛議 19:07, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Positive it was. Even if it is a mistranslation, it doesn't change the topic at all, it's about what sage transformation is or isn't, so nice avoiding--Elveonora (talk) 19:12, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not avoiding anything, just wanting to clear that up. What was your point again? I hate it when discussions go here and there, I tend to lose the overview way too quickly. Seelentau 愛議 19:20, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

Just rewatched shippuden episode 341 on Crunchyroll, he indeed said Curse Marks contain his own Senjutsu chakra, so either you or official anime translation is wrong--Elveonora (talk) 19:30, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yeah, he says that. What does it matter, though? He still only took chakra from Kabuto, Senjutsu chakra wasn't mentioned. Seelentau 愛議 19:45, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Orochimaru said Curse Marks contain his Senjutsu chakra. Kabuto got Orochimaru's chakra from Curse Mark, what's hard to comprehend here? I don't really get anymore what you are trying with this topic, at first I thought we are on the same page, not so sure anymore, can you again please explain your intent? With all due respect, I think you've missed the mark with this one--Elveonora (talk) 19:58, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, Juin contain his Senjutsu chakra, but why do you think Kabuto used Orochimaru's chakra in any way for his Sennin Mode? I don't get what you're saying. Kabuto used Oro's chakra in Anko's Juin for Edo Tensei, didn't he? We don't know if Orochimaru's Senjutsu chakra is connected to the Juinka, there was never any mentioning of a connection. I'm trying to explain/sum up the information given by the manga, the related articles need to be rewritten according to the explanation. I don't really understand how you can say I'm wrong when I'm just saying what the manga said. Seelentau 愛議 20:32, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * I never said he used the chakra for anything, you misunderstood me likely. This is what you wrote, quoting you: "Are you guys aware that it was never said that Kabuto got Oro's Senjutsu chakra?" then you wrote: "He still only took chakra from Kabuto, Senjutsu chakra wasn't mentioned" since Curse Marks contain Orochimaru's Senjutsu chakra, Kabuto got Orochimaru's chakra from a Curse Mark and Orochimaru absorbed said chakra from Kabuto, therefore he did absorb back his own Senjutsu chakra, that's why I'm not sure where you were going with that. For "articles need to be rewritten" I wouldn't be so hasty, I unfortunately indeed disagree with your new explanation, I find it almost completely flawed. I think you misinterpreted what is written in the manga about this--Elveonora (talk) 21:04, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah, iSee. Well, you're wrong here: "Orochimaru absorbed said chakra from Kabuto". While he did absorb chakra, it was not stated to be Senjutsu chakra.
 * Furthermore, "Kabuto got Orochimaru's chakra from a Curse Mark" is what I don't understand. Where was that mentioned and for what did he use that chakra? Seelentau 愛議 21:17, February 17, 2014 (UTC)

All Curse Marks contain Orochimaru's Senjutsu chakra according to himself. Kabuto literary abducted Anko for the sole purpose of sucking Orochimaru's chakra from her Curse Mark, did you forget? He did that to strengthen Edo Tensei. Why do you suggest there's both Senjutsu and non-Senjutsu chakras of Orochimaru in the marks?--Elveonora (talk) 21:26, February 17, 2014 (UTC)


 * For the record, 520 and 522 are the Chapters in which Kabuto states his intention, and follows through with it, respectively. It is in 593 that Orochimaru claims to have poured his Senjutsu chakra into the Juuin. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 21:29, February 17, 2014 (UTC)
 * I guess this confirms that the Juin has both Orochimaru's normal and Senjutsu chakra, huh? And again, Jūgō only said Orochimaru took his own chakra from Kabuto, it was never mentioned that Kabuto had Oro's Senjutsu chakra inside his body. Seelentau 愛議 09:24, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Nope, it doesn't, only that the latter is there but for some reason, you assume there to be non-senjutsu chakra as well just because Jugo didn't say the word "senjutsu" only that Oro was "taking back his own chakra" ignoring that Kabuto got Orochimaru's chakra from a Curse Mark in the first place which were noted to have his Senjutsu chakra. People refer to Naruto handing Kurama's chakra as it being "Naruto's chakra" so by the same logic it means he didn't handle biju chakra at all. For your other point, I believe it was that Sage Transformation and Sage Mode are one and the same, with which I disagree, like completely or even beyond that. I'm not putting down what you say, far from that since you know, I respect you and am interested to hear you out and all. But please, tell me step by step again why do you think what you think, whatever that is, chapter/databook quotes to back up said explanations wouldn't hurt either. I'm gonna once again explain my understanding of it, which I'm almost positive is the correct one:


 * Sage Transformation refers only to the act of physical transformation/mutation/shapeshifting (wings, horns, axes, jets, anything and shi*) unique to Jugo and his clan and by extension artificially Curse Mark users too, what when they do use, takes senjutsu chakra to activate it so using Sage Transformation also means using Sage Mode for them, but for normal Sage Mode users it doesn't mean using Sage Transformation. So in short:
 * 1) Jugo and his clan's bodies passively absorb natural energy, that's how they get senjutsu chakra. This is very likely to be a Kekkei Genkai and is completely separate from the enzyme/sage transformation. If they are Sages or not is another topic I guess.
 * 2) They also have the said special enzyme which when they use the senjutsu chakra makes them transform, same for Curse Mark users. So you could say Sage Transformation is a side-effect of using Sage Mode due to the enzyme.
 * 3) The only difference between Jugo (or his clan's other member) and a Curse Mark user is that the former have senjutsu chakra their own because their bodies absorb natural energy, while a Curse Mark user's body doesn't absorb natural energy due to not having their Kekkei Genkai but he/she gets Senjutsu chakra from Orochimaru. Another small difference is that Oro modified the enzyme to only 1 form per a CM user for some reason, unlike the seemingly numerous/infinite forms the original allows, likely to make it more stable.--Elveonora (talk) 14:01, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

I'm in agreement with Seelentau on this one. I also think its supported by the fact that unbalanced natural energy in toad sage mode turns users into frogs. Not to mention Jiraiya has shown control in what parts of his body turns frog-like, much like Jugo has control over his own body. This, combined with the fact that all of Orochimaru's cursed seal transformations look as if they have traits taken from animals, supports the idea that there may be multiple types of natural energy. The only instance of natural energy use that doesn't appear animal like is Jugo's usage, but he innately can absorb natural energy. So he can transform into anything. @Elveonora, I don't think you should take what was said so strictly. It says the enzyme causes the transformation, but it doesn't say how. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 21:47, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, let's try again:

When a human draws natural energy into his body and mixes his with his own Chakra, he creates Senjutsu Chakra and enters a stadium called "Sennin Mode". It doesn't matter if it was intended or not and it doesn't matter if the Chakra's balanced or if he turns to stone. The Sennin Mode is the stadium of having Senjutsu Chakra inside one's own body. (It might be different for animals, but that's not important) One can learn to enter that stadium at two places: the Myōbokuzan and the Ryūchidō. For unknown reasons, the looks of both Sennin Modes differ.

Now there's a village where a clan lives. This clan has special bodies that draw in natural energy unintentionally, resulting in uncontrollable rages. They enter the same Sennin Mode as any other human being, but because of their special bodies, they don't turn to stone. They call it Sennin Transformation in that village.

Orochimaru found out that the source of the special bodies is the Ryūchidō (what exactly that means is not clear yet). He created an enzyme from Jūgo's special body (fluids) and gives it to normal people using a Juin. When they draw in natural energy, their transformation is called Curse Seal Transformation.

Orochimaru also is able to create Senjutsu Chakra and he inserted it into the Juin, but I don't get how that's related to the topic. I also probably forgot some stuff, it's a difficult topic. I translated most of the relevant stuff here, by the way. Seelentau 愛議 22:21, February 18, 2014 (UTC)
 * Weird, once you state it in a way I disagree with and then the way I also get it. Except again, Sage Transformation isn't just a different term/synonym for Sage Mode, their special bodies are required for that. Naruto, Jiraiya or anyone without the enzyme won't grow horns, wings, tails, blades and shi* as they wish, only toad features to our knowledge. That appears to be the major point we disagree at, you take what he said too literary. Yes, I agree that Sage Transformation = Sage Mode, BUT with the enzyme.

@Mangekyou, animal traits due to unbalance of natural energy in ordinary sage mode users are unrelated to the mutations of sage transformation.--Elveonora (talk) 23:10, February 18, 2014 (UTC)

So can you agree with this: We have a "natural energy modus", which can be reached through three different methods. The first being the training method (Sennin Mode), second being the special body (Sennin Transformation) and third being the seal (Juin Transformation)? They all work a little bit differently, but ultimately end up being the same "status of having natural energy in the body"? Seelentau 愛議 00:10, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, all 3 are Sage Mode, but Sage Mode isn't the other two. Senninka and Juinka are almost the same thing, only the latter is done artificially through juinjutsu and has Oro's Senjutsu chakra as a bonus. Basically, we didn't really learn anything new from this topic, expect that maybe we should list Jugo as a user of Sage Mode as well--Elveonora (talk) 11:09, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * But! When Oro's Juin gives the person an artifical "Jūgō-body", wouldn't the resulting transformation be the same as the one Jūgō does? And if Jūgō's ability to do that transformation is rooted in the Ryūchidō, wouldn't be his transformation the same as the one Kabuto does? Jūgō called Kabuto's Sennin Mode "Senninka", meaning that even while they're created through different means, the result known as "Sennin Mode" is equal to the result known as "Senninka". The Senninka only looks different because of the special body, I guess. Seelentau 愛議 11:25, February 19, 2014 (UTC)


 * Can we just rewrite Sage Transformation to state that this is what Jugo's clan called it when their body changes uncontrollably, and that Sage Mode is when the body is enhanced controlled?
 * I really am confused by this entire discussion T_T--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 11:27, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

@Seel, The bodily fluids/enzyme/special body whatever allows many mutations, there is most likely to be a limit to the scale of transformation and number of its variants Jugo can do (like he can't change into a non-humanoid shape), but it's plenty, not just one form. Oro didn't just copy-paste, but modified it, explaining why Juinka users have only 1 form each. Juinka isn't Senninka in its purest form, it was built upon from it. And I think you are misinterpreting this part: "And then he finally found out that the source of that power... was the Ryūchidō" Kabuto was referring to natural energy, not the mutations. Essentially, through experiments on Jugo, Oro had learned that natural energy triggers the mutations and he tracked it to snake cave or what is its name. Same for: "In my village this is called Senninka... originally my transformation is the same. However, my copies' transformation is called Juinka" Orochimaru didn't undo just Sage Mode but Sage Transformation as well. Again, Kabuto's snake features in general were due to Sage Transformation, he just gained horns upon entering perfect Sage Mode. If Sage Mode and Sage Transformation were the same, then Oro disabling it would have just had Kabuto loose his horns, not turn completely normal. Again, Kabuto didn't have snake body due to Orochimaru's DNA during the war, he used Sage Transformation to attain such visage. Kishimoto even through Jugo explained to us what happened there: "No... that's not it. He undid the Senninka and took his own chakra from inside of Kabuto" basically this and this the same thing according to Jugo--Elveonora (talk) 12:12, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * "Again, Kabuto's snake features in general were due to Sage Transformation, he just gained horns upon entering perfect Sage Mode." - Why do you think that? Seelentau 愛議 12:44, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Because cancelling it turned him human?--Elveonora (talk) 12:48, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * But he already had his snake features when he met Naruto and Yamato and discovered the Ryūchidō later. Seelentau 愛議 13:53, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sure he did, from Orochimaru's cells taking over his own, just like Hashirama's do when out of control. His bodily tissue was literary getting replaced with Orochimaru's, The process obviously didn't finish and he took control, if it did, he would have died then. By the time of the war, he was as much "Orochimaru" as he is Karin, Kimimaro, Sakon and the others. He wasn't "Kabutochimaru" because of the cells anymore, he took control of them and chose the form of his master himself. He was imitating Orochimaru, wasn't partially one literary. EDIT: to make it simpler, earlier when meeting Yamato and gang he was for an example like a jinchuuriki getting transformed by his tailed beast when not in control, but during the war he was like Killer B, transforming himself consensually--Elveonora (talk) 14:13, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * And how are Orochimaru's cells related to Sennin Transformation? Seelentau 愛議 14:18, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

They aren't. What I am saying is that originally Kabuto was turning into Orochimaru because of the latter's cells taking over, while in the war he appeared as "Kabutochimaru/snake features whatever" using Jugo's Sage Transformation. That's at least what Jugo said and what we were shown and logical deduction, since had the cells taken over, he wouldn't have appeared during the war, having been dead. The context is important, upon Kabuto's body reverting its snake traits from Orochimaru touching him, Suigetsu panicked stating he told them Orochimaru would steal Kabuto's powers, with Jugo correcting him that that's not what is going on, with Orochimaru only turning off Sage Transformation and taking back his own chakra Kabuto had absorbed earlier from Anko. Not sure what's not clear--Elveonora (talk) 14:24, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * So you're saying that Kabuto began to look like Orochimaru because of his cells but when he finally completely looked like him it wasn't because of the cells, but because of the Sennin Transformation which is only possible by having a special body which Kabuto accquired... how exactly? Seelentau 愛議 14:34, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * The same way he got powers of others, dosing himself with blood cocktail of course--Elveonora (talk) 14:48, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * ah, I see. So he said he got Jūgō's powers by training in the Ryūchidō, but I guess that was a lie, then? Seelentau 愛議 14:51, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * No, he mastered Sage Mode there. Where do you think he learned Sage Art: Inorganic Reincarnation and Sage Art: White Rage Technique ? Before mastering it at Ryuchido he was as much of a Sage as Jugo is--Elveonora (talk) 14:56, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Enough with the sarcasm. Kabuto stated that he gained that (Jūgo's) ability in the Ryuchido by training his body under the guidance of the Hakuja Sennin and that there's no other possibility to accquire it. Jūgō referred to Kabuto's Sage Mode as Senninka because that's what they call it in his village. Those are facts from the manga, I'm not making anything up here, unlike you. So please, let's end this discussion. Seelentau 愛議 15:09, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

What sarcasm? I'm serious with you and I thought you were too, not nice of you at all. Kabuto was referring to Sage Mode. Jugo and his clan call such their version of Sage Mode, they aren't the same. I'm not making anything up either, I have the same "facts" at my disposal. My opinion is that you are missing the context and misinterpreting things, with all due respect. Just because I disagree with your understanding, you start with accusations?--Elveonora (talk) 15:19, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sorry if I begin to sound rude... but let me try again: Chapter 593: Suigetsu asks Jūgo what the stuff he took from Kabuto is. Jūgo replies with "In my village this is called Senninka... originally my transformation is the same.". Now you say they're not the same, despite that statement. Why? Seelentau 愛議 15:37, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

My understanding of that dialogue is that Kabuto was using Senninka and Jugo simply explained to Suigetsu what it's called and what it is. We pretty much only interpret the same sentence differently ._. Anyway, the decision isn't up to either of us and our alone. There isn't some kind of authority above others here, we are on equal grounds, at an openly editable encyclopedia, not a personal make-wish project. I'm not holding or threatening you, feel free to make changes as you deem adequate, we may then be finally able to move somewhere from there. Just know, anyone myself included may revert your edits. That's why I rather discuss something to prevent edit wars later on, even tho it might appear as a fight already, not my intent I assure you, so I'm sorry too. Really, just do your stuff if you feel it's right and we will eventually figure out how it is. English isn't my native language either, with that I don't mean to say you are wrong here, only that context/meaning can get lost through translation or be easily missed. And it's perhaps not even about language barrier, really, even natives can't agree upon something from time to time. Some things can be hardly interpreted with vague wording--Elveonora (talk) 15:52, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * It isn't about interpretation. Kabuto calls his mode Sage Mode, Jūgo says that his transformation is the exact same, but it's called Senninka in his village. There is nothing left for us to interpret.
 * I'm not the one who makes the decisions. I write down information for you guys, you can use it as you want. If you don't want to add what I explained, it's okay, anyway. Seelentau 愛議 16:55, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm with Seel here. Jūgo flat out says, in no vague terms, that the two transformations are one in the same. Jūgo flat out says that Sage Mode is called Sage Transformation in his village. So interpretation doesn't matter. The manga says it, so that's what it is. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 17:26, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except he doesn't. Getting kinda tired... the only thing Sage Mode added to Kabuto were the horns, yet cancelling your supposed Sage Mode = Sage Transformation made him not only loose horns but everything he had prior to activation of Sage Mode. And again, Jugo didn't say while taking a piece of Kabuto that Sage Mode = Sage Transformation. Prior, Suigetsu said that Jugo and Kabuto are the same, referring to their creepy physical mutations. Jugo explained that they call it Sage Transformation/Senninka in their clan. I really don't get how from that dialogue you get anything else--Elveonora (talk) 18:02, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * The only thing Sage Mode added to Naruto were the markings around his eyes, so Kabuto only gaining horns is perfectly fine.
 * Orochimaru took back his own chakra, you can see Kabuto's snake-parts basically being drawn in by Orochimaru. That's why Kabuto lost his snakey appearance.
 * Jūgo said it the moment after he took that piece of Kabuto and Suigetsu askes him what that stuff is. Seelentau 愛議 18:15, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's my point. Sage Mode gave Kabuto just horns, yet deactivating your supposed Sage Mode took away all snake traits you say? That's why it's obvious to me that Sage Transformation refers to the said traits and as such can't be Sage Mode, which gave him just the horns. Kabuto looked like snake prior to absorbing of Orochimaru's chakra from Anko, so how is Orochimaru taking away something Kabuto additionally gained related to what he already had prior? Taking away Orochimaru's chakra shouldn't have had any effect on his appearance since it didn't have any when he gained it. Same for Sage Mode, it gave him horns, not all the snake traits, so how disabling Sage Mode took all the snake traits? Just explain me this.

And that's what I said, Suigetsu commented that Jugo and Kabuto are the same upon observing them, with Jugo explaining what it is and what it's called. How you get "Sage Transformation is just another term for Sage Mode" from that whole scene is beyond me. To me it simply means Kabuto has both Sage Mode and Sage Transformation, not that they are synonymous--Elveonora (talk) 18:29, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except that kind of logic can't even make sense, no matter how you spin it. They both require natural energy. We already know the snake-like appearance of Kabuto is from Orochimaru, and he doesn't get horns until he enters Sage Mode. The only difference is that Jūgo's lacks the control of Kabuto's (or any other Sage's for that matter). The source of power from both "transformations" come from the same place and Jūgo says that Kabuto's transformation (post-Sage Mode) is called "Sage Transformation" in his village. Just like how Soccer is called Football in most other countries. Same thing, different name. The way you're spinning it, Elve, doesn't make any sense. I still agree with Seel since he's taking this right from the raw. It only makes sense that one way. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:36, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Whatever. I make perfectly valid points and you twist it into "that kind of logic can't even make sense" that's pretty much ignorance in my book. So you say Kabuto's Orochimaru-like appearance that he had prior to activation of Sage Mode gets lost after its deactivation and that's logical to you.--Elveonora (talk) 18:41, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * "yet deactivating your supposed Sage Mode took away all snake traits you say" - I never said that.
 * Kabuto began to look like a snake when he injected Orochimaru's chakra after his death. Not the chakra left in Anko's cursed seal. Seelentau 愛議 18:52, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * He injected cells not chakra, but yes. So why he ceased to look like him and turned normal once the mode and chakra from Anko were taken away, despite both being unrelated to his appearance? The only logical conclusion to me is that the mode was related to his appearance--Elveonora (talk) 19:11, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * "chakra from Anko were taken away" - please show me where it's stated that he somehow injected OroAnko's chakra into his body. Seelentau 愛議 19:16, February 19, 2014 (UTC)

Chapters 521-522--Elveonora (talk) 19:20, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, point for you. But still, by drawing in his chakra, Orochimaru released Kabuto's snake appearance. The exact same snake appearance Kabuto got after injecting Oro's blood after he died and the one he already had when he found the Hakuja Sennin and learned to master the Sennin Mode, which in turn has been called Sennin Transformation by Jūgo. Seelentau 愛議 19:41, February 19, 2014 (UTC)


 * Why exactly is Anko's chakra even relevant? All Kabuto used it for was to strengthen the Edo Tensei. It literally had no other purpose. Certainly nothing pertaining to this. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 19:58, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * How could Orochimaru release Kabuto's snake appearance he got from blood cells by taking back his own chakra (blood =/= chakra) that had resided in Anko and by disabling Sage Mode, none of which had anything to do with the appearance to begin with? That's why I conclude Kabuto's snake appearance during the war was no longer due to Orochimaru's blood cells, but Sage Transformation with dialogue from Jugo and Suigetsu as evidence. The dialogue pretty much word by word claims that Kabuto lost snake traits because Orochimaru released "Senninka" check it out again, how do you explain that? That's my evidence that Sage Mode and Sage Transformation are different. The former gave him horns and should have taken just horns upon deactivation, while according to Jugo's words, Orochimaru released Sage Transformation, with Jugo's words being a response to Suigetsu's reaction of Kabuto loosing his snake appearance.

@Foxie, it's not relevant. But you guys take Orochimaru turning Kabuto normal just by taking the said chakra and disabling Sage Transformation too lightly. Since as you said, the chakra didn't have anything with his appearance, it must have been the mode--Elveonora (talk) 20:01, February 19, 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, now I see where you're coming from. I still don't agree with you, though. I mean, if Kabuto got his snakey appearance not from Orochimaru's DNA, then why did that snakey stuff was absorbed into Orochimaru and why did Kabuto look like a snake before he mastered Senjutsu? Seelentau 愛議 10:37, February 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm so glad that we are on the same page now. For snakey stuff, are you referring to Oro's hand becoming scaly? Then from absorbing Senjutsu chakra I suppose, considering he isn't a perfect Sage to begin with, natural energy would affect him a bit. Orochimaru did only two things to Kabuto: took back his own chakra Kabuto had sucked from Anko's Juin and disabled his Senninka according to Jugo. And since the former didn't have anything to do with Kabuto's snake appearance I conclude it was the latter, disabling Senninka made Kabuto's body appear normal therefore it must have been responsible for how it looked in the first place. It's no complex logic, don't you agree? Pretty much 2+3=5 therefore 5-3 must be 2 and the scenes+dialogue pretty much support that, so no speculation either.

As we both know, originally Orochimaru's cells were taking over his body, Kabuto himself said in case it takes over he will die during his encounter with Yamato, Hinata and gang. This is what he looked like considerably different than his face and arms during the war, more evidence they are unrelated. Not to mention he is still alive, so logically the cells didn't take over.--Elveonora (talk) 13:29, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Kabuto may have integrated Orochimaru's cells and not chakra directly, but Orochimaru's cells are going to produce Orochimaru's chakra, period. meaning he had his chakra before absorbing some from Anko's cursed seal, and making your whole argument moot. Orochimaru absorbed not just Anko's chakra, but the chakra from his own cells, as well. And he seems to have done it in the same fashion that Jugo used to remove a piece of flesh from Kabuto and paste it on Anko, which, stemming from his ability, is inherently senjutsu, which further supports my claim. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 22:26, February 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Had he had Orochimaru's chakra already, there wouldn't have been a reason to absorb any. Also not sure how that is any counter to what I said, completely irrelevant.--Elveonora (talk) 23:52, February 20, 2014 (UTC)

Soooo, Kabuto's back in Sage Mode, hm? Seelentau 愛議 07:30, March 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * ^ Bingo. Orochimaru didn't disable Kabuto's Senninka in the way Elve keeps preporting it. He sucked out the Sage Chakra causing Sage Mode to end. Sage Mode and Senninka are one and the same and this pretty much proves it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 08:58, March 5, 2014 (UTC)

Not sure what your point is, it doesn't disprove anything I said, it actually proves what I was saying. I expected him to appear again like this all along to prove you I am right, I told you his "Orochimaru" form is Senninka and here it is. I wish people would stop reading out of context--Elveonora (talk) 11:42, March 5, 2014 (UTC)

And for the very last time, stop tonguing someone TTF please, with all due respect. I said that Senninka = Sage Mode since the very beginning, go back up and read it all again. But Sage Mode =/= Senninka, not sure why don't you get the logic. Dogs are canines, but not all canines are dogs. Senninka is what Jugo and his clan call it within his clan and their usage obviously isn't synonymous.--Elveonora (talk) 11:46, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * The thing is, what do we do with Madara's words? He described whatever Obito did with Hashirama's Senchakra as Senninka... Seelentau 愛議 12:11, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * I know Madara is close omniscient, omnipotent and all, save for his knowledge of Senjutsu. Obito didn't show any eye markings nor physical changes, anything for that matter as well, so that's questionable. For the topic, I would actually approve the merger of Sage Transformation and Sage Mode articles, as long as:

Would that ease your heart? :)--Elveonora (talk) 12:21, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * they are still kept separate in the infoboxes
 * separate for the users as well
 * What if the general process of using Senchakra to alternate your body or a weapon is called Senninka and the result of alterating the body is called Sennin Mode? Because entering Sennin Mode from using Senchakra is no must, as we know from Fukasaku, Shima, that Gamadude and Obito. Seelentau 愛議 12:42, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm positive the toads also have had to gather natural energy for themselves, I recall an instance of this in the manga. So they aren't in Sage Mode/using Senchakra all the time. For determining what is what, I think we should go with that we were told Senninka is, Jugo said they call their bodily transformation Senninka, so that's what they are. It's Jugo and his clan's version of Sage Mode.

Madara's statement is as vague as it can get and also Kishi is known to insert gibberish into his characters' mouths from time to time, to make them appear more realistic or something. Same thing happened when Orochimaru said Jugo has a Curse Mark, those statements aren't supposed to be specific. They are kinda like: "do you own a car?" with response "yeah, I own a motorcycle"--Elveonora (talk) 12:58, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, they have to gather natural energy and knead senchakra, but they don't enter sage mode, to they?
 * Orochimaru called it Jugo's Juin because Jugo is the Juin's "father", if you will. It's his power in the shape of a Juin, given to others.
 * For all we know, Madara could've referred to the "Sage Mode" he himself is in, not the Sennin Mode. But it's not our job to decide what he probably meant, we simply write down what was said. Seelentau 愛議 13:10, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * Considering toads already... well, have toad eyes, it's hard to determine if they are or aren't in Sage Mode. But they have to gather natural energy, mold Senjutsu chakra and then they can lift boulders, with increased strength being a characteristic of Sage Mode. And there's no other known procedure to using Sage Mode other than molding Senjutsu chakra and no logical reason for why would it be different for them and humans. And I guess. For the actual topic, this is how I imagine the merger. There would be just the Sage Mode article, separated in the end with "Sage Transformation" subsection stating: "Jugo and his clan call it Senninka. Due to bodily fluids their special bodies possess, entering Sage Mode makes them go X-Men. Curse Marks are a portable juinjutsu version of the fluids responsible for teh mutations" or so.--Elveonora (talk) 13:29, March 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * Alright, give me another shot at the explanation please:
 * Senninka is the result of absorbing natural energy without consent. Jugo's clan has bodies that do this and they go berserk from it. Kabuto, who studied Jugo's body, gained the same body (as noted by Sasuke in chapter 579, before Kabuto turned into a dragon). However, he trained at the Ryuchido and learned to control the absorption. He still absorbs natural energy (hence his looks, as you said), but he doesn't go beastmode from it.
 * Sage Mode is the result of consensually absorbing natural energy, either through the aforementioned body+control, or through hard training without any special body.
 * This means, while Naruto took the easier way of entering sage mode (by learning it), Kabuto overdid it and altered his body to absorb natural energy and enter sage mode. Does this sound pleasing? Seelentau 愛議 13:50, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's almost about right. But I wouldn't exactly say that Senninka is a result of "just" absorbing natural energy without consent, it's not about being consensual. Natural energy alone does nothing other than make them crazy, it's when they mold Senjutsu chakra do they transform and as such enter Senninka, their version of Sage Mode. This can be seen because Jugo isn't constantly a mutant, yet his body does absorb natural energy all the time, meaning the actual Senninka (transformation/mode) is consensual, they have to enter it.--Elveonora (talk) 14:04, March 5, 2014 (UTC)
 * Kabuto is also an evidence of this, he has mastered Sage Mode, but he can't enter it without transforming despite being perfect Sage, that's because he has Jugo's cells.--Elveonora (talk) 14:21, March 5, 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I rewrote the article in the German NP, gonna translate it roughly for you:
 * Senninka is a transformation a human can undergo after he absorbed natural energy and added it to his normal chakra, creating Senjutsu-chakra.
 * There is a village whose inhabitants have special bodies that absorb natural energy. This allows them to form weapons on their bodies, while also increasing their physical strength. If they absorb too much natural energy, they're overpowered and turn into berserking murderers.
 * Jugo, one of the village's people, went to Orochimaru in search for help. Orochimaru was more interested in the ability Jugo wielded, though. He discovered that the source of that ability is the Ryuchido, where the Hakuja Sennin lives and helps people mastering the Senninka. Orochimaru couldn't master it because he hadn't got the right body for it. Instead, he created an enzyme which causes the same transformation in normal people. Since he distributes that enzyme through a Juin, the transformation is called Juinka.
 * Unlike his master, Kabuto Yakushi was able to modify his body, gaining the villager's bodies and finally mastering the Senninka at the Ryuchido. This allows him to enter a Sennin Mode, where his looks resemble that of a snake.
 * Obito Uchiha is also able to use the Senninka. He stole a little bit of Madara Uchiha's senjutsu chakra to augment his shakujō.

That good, ya? Seelentau 愛議 15:43, March 5, 2014 (UTC)

More or less. But natural energy alone doesn't allow them the shapeshifting, it's when they mold Senjutsu chakra, their bodily fluids react to it by a transformation. Also the Obito mention is kinda out of place. We don't even list Madara as a user of Sage Mode in here (or do we?) the kid just absorbed a tiny bit of Senjutsu chakra, no different than Fat Pain, except he was able to use it.--Elveonora (talk) 18:53, March 5, 2014 (UTC)


 * So TL;DR, this entire discussion is trying to say that Sage Transformation is Sage Mode? So this means...Jugo is a sage now?--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 12:42, March 6, 2014 (UTC)
 * User of Sage Mode yes, but not a Sage.--Elveonora (talk) 12:56, March 6, 2014 (UTC)

merger
Can anyone tell me why Body Absorption, Chain, Chakra Blast Cannons, Destroying Axe Fist, Jet Booster Jump and Piston Fist even exist? I may be willing to back off on body absorption and "chakra appendages" since they are specific enough, but a blunt/sharp weapon-shaped arm is just too generic. I recall Asura Path having too many techniques as well and we removed some of them--Elveonora (talk) 14:00, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * I would have thought that all of those were named due to their appearances in the video games.--NaviiGator (A.K.A.KotoSenju) Talk Page-My Contributions 15:13, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Most were created way before we knew how Jūgo's transformation worked, and some of them get named in the games. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:36, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * We do we label canon phenomena with non-canon terms tho? :P--Elveonora (talk) 22:59, March 10, 2014 (UTC)
 * Anything from a game is higher canon, and therefore preferable to any name we come up with ourselves. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:45, March 11, 2014 (UTC)

double standards ^_^
So smoke transformation has been labeled a kekkei genkai without a wrinkle, yet this wasn't given the same treatment.--Elveonora (talk) 00:25, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Funny you point that out Elveo-sama. I thought we had already established this as a kekkei genkai.. It's sad that im just now noticing that it actually wasn't....--NaviiGator (A.K.A.KotoSenju) Talk Page-My Contributions 00:31, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * So that question on Naruto Answers has you thinking, huh, Elveornora? Yeah, I definitely think this should be classified as a kekkei genkai as well. --KirinNOTKarin98 (talk) 01:04, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Kekkei Genkai all the way. Just because its something others can do (under assumption that senninka = or ~= senninmodo) doesn't make it any less of one. Its something his clan can inherently do. I kind of want to bring the Uzumaki clan's endurance into this convo, but I won't take the risk. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 05:06, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe from Yukimi(?) explanation of their ability it was referred to as a kekkei genkai. No one ever said this wasn't a kekkei genkai but we have to answer to a "higher power" with Jūgram's abilities.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 06:48, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

Do we really need something as obvious spelled to us? Hiden techniques aren't genetic unless I'm mistaken.--Elveonora (talk) 11:15, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * It is a clan's trait
 * Kabuto juiced himself with Jugo's cells, got Senninka
 * The thing is, Orochimaru got the enzyme for his Juin from Jūgo's body fluids. Does that count as DNA? Seelentau 愛議 11:19, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Only their bodies produce the fluids, that's where the genetic part lies, not in the fluids themselves. Obviously, the power can be obtained either by simply taking the fluids, or their cells, which in case of the latter will make the junkie's own body produce the fluids.--Elveonora (talk) 11:24, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * However it is, it doesn't make Senninka a Kekkei Genkai, just like Sakon's Sōma no Kō isn't a Kekkei Genkai, but a Jutsu used with an unnamed Kekkei Genkai. Seelentau 愛議 11:33, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * ^_^ isn't by the same logic Gentle Fist not a Kekkei Kengai? ;) Or the actual substances produced through an advanced nature transformation. Saying Senninka is a kekkei genkai is no different than saying "lava" is. Although of course it's not entirely correct, because lava doesn't flow through Mei's veins, she just has genes which allow her to merge two nature, producing the lava. So with your logic, lava release isn't a kekkei genkai but "genes which allow earth and fire to be mixed" is--Elveonora (talk) 11:36, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * A Kekkei Genkai is the DNA mutation which allows someone to do something. What that someone does through his DNA mutation is labeled as a Kekkei Genkai, too. What I meant is that Senninka is not the DNA mutation, but something that can be done through the DNA mutation. It's like S&U' unnamed Kekkei Genkai and their Sōma no Kō technique, meaning we'll have to create an Jūgo's Clan's Unnamed Kekkei Genkai" article. Seelentau 愛議 11:43, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Right. "Special bodily fluids" or something. Senninka still gets the kekkei genkai label as a delivered technique tho. Although I'm not even sure if Senninka should have ninjutsu/senjutsu classifications, it's a reaction of special body to senjutsu chakra. Does that count as a "technique" ?--Elveonora (talk) 11:49, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Senjutsu yes, Ninjutsu no. Seelentau 愛議 12:09, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

I for one, support this notion. Looks like we're finally getting somewhere with this.--NaviiGator (A.K.A.KotoSenju) Talk Page-My Contributions 14:51, March 12, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yay!!! And here I thought the day would never come a topic of mine reaches some conclusion.--Elveonora (talk) 14:54, March 12, 2014 (UTC)

What would be considered the debut of this tho>--Elveonora (talk) 17:15, March 14, 2014 (UTC)