Talk:Kawarama Senju

Another Brother
I am about 53% sure that Kawarama is another Senju brother. I of course base this completely on the name "Kawarama", like "Hashirama", Tobirama. The only wrench in this theory is Itama, who's name drops the "rama" ending and ruins everything. Still maybe a trivia note?--TheUltimate3 (talk) 12:15, February 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * If it really was their brother, then I guess they would be a little more depressed about his death, like Hashirama sulking at the river after his other brother died. Otherwise, it is more an assumption.Norleon (talk) 12:26, February 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree. None of them seemed to speak about Kawarama as a sibling, a relative yes, but not a sibling.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk)

Hi, well actually Tobirama said that Kawarama is their brother. Check it again for prove ^_^. THANKYOU Small brother (talk) 15:26, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

My 2 cents, "Senju Father" fathered pretty much most children in Senju Clan, it's common for a leader to impregnate many women or not? I also disagree with @Norleon, they were obviously much more touched by his/her death than they should if it was just some random Senju kid, dad's suppressed sadness turned into anger and he had to filter it by hitting Hashi, the whole "be thankful for a part of his corpse retrieved" thing also the convo turned into Hashi talking how he doesn't want to just watch Tobirama and Itama die a hollow death. Also Tobirama told Itama "keep thinking like that and we will be burying you real soon" in response to avenging the lost loved ones, everything hints on that--Elveonora (talk) 15:24, February 27, 2013 (UTC)
 * It hints, yes. But it proves nothing. We have to wait for later chapters or even the next databook to be completely sure. Until then, we simply know that he is another Senju member, nothing more.Norleon (talk) 16:03, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

Going by the name, I would also believe Kawarama is another brother, the naming scheme ending in -ma. When raw comes out, we have to see if the way they talk about him indicates he's a sibling. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:20, February 28, 2013 (UTC)

So, has there been a confirmation about Kawarama being a sibling to the Senju trio? Jacce | Talk | Contributions 14:29, March 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * No. Seelentau 愛議 14:49, March 6, 2013 (UTC)
 * It may be a naming convention within the clan, so it wouldn't necessarily mean that they had to be brothers.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:10, March 6, 2013 (UTC)

In chapter 624, when Madara says that his brothers have been killed by the Senju, Hashirama thinks about Itama and a guy who is probably Kawarama. Wouldn't that be enough to claim Kawarama as Hashirama's brother?--79.50.187.241 (talk) 08:16, March 19, 2013 (UTC)

I think it was obvious and now has been confirmed--Elveonora (talk) 12:48, March 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * I am still not totally convinced about this. Everything hints on that for sure, but what I am missing is the unmistakable evidence, like "all his brothers died, just like mine" or something like that. He could have been his cousin just as well, who knows it for sure?Norleon (talk) 12:55, March 19, 2013 (UTC)

The scenes and situations mirrored themselves, cousin is possible, but unlikely since he even looks like Tobirama, I'd say the white hair comes from a/the mother--Elveonora (talk) 13:01, March 19, 2013 (UTC)

Please remove him as brother o hashirama and son of butsuma. He is not. If he were the author would just have made it clear. Why make mystery about this unimportant character? If its not confirmed this information shouldn't be hereHolyn (talk) 23:57, March 24, 2013 (UTC)Holyn (talk) 23:55, March 24, 2013 (UTC)

The mirroring of the situations is too much to ignore. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:38, March 25, 2013 (UTC)

And why should a memory be a proof of brotherhood ? Aren't people allowed to remember or care for anyone beside their siblings ? There is absolutely no hint that Kawarama is a brother, there is a proof that he is a Senju clan member but that's all. What are you bunch of 12 year olds who write down on wiki what they wish to be true ? Its stupid to say he is a brother when no one refers to him as brother. And no one cared much about Kawarama at his funeral axcept for Itama who cried, Hashirama was upset because he was 7 years old. Butsuma didn't give a damn. It's embarrassing to put it on wikipedia in this case narutopedia that he is a brother, if you want to write fanon stories go to a fanon wiki and make him brother, clone, sayan or what ever you want. But erase it from here or I will unless you have proof from manga that someone says he is a brother or a databook or even Kishis statement from interview. I forgot my user name

Everything points out to him being their brother, their reactions, his appearance, his presence in the flashback and Hashirama's comment--Elveonora (talk) 22:49, April 2, 2013 (UTC)

When Madara said the blood of his brothers was in Senju hands, Hashirama remembered Itama and Kawarama, and we know Itama was killed by Uchiha. As mentioned before, and as the overwhelming majority who reads Naruto will tell you, those parallels and Butsuma's interactions with his other sons in Kawarama's funeral all point to Kawarama being their brother. Butsuma considered Hashirama's words a disrespect to Kawarama's memory, and was proud that Kawarama died fighting, so he punished Hashirama. Is it possible that he's not their brother? Sure, but it is infinitely more likely that they're siblings than it is that they're not. There's this thing called common sense, we use it here, Kishimoto doesn't have to spoonfeed us every bit of information. All the available info adds up to it. I invite you to try removing that from the article, but let me say this: every regularly editing user will revert your edits, and if you start a revert war, either the article gets protected, or you get blocked. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:11, April 2, 2013 (UTC)


 * They were talking about brothers. No matter how precious a sibling relative is, it doesn't mean that Hashirama thought of Kawarama like that. Apart from that, really? The four of them look like Russian nesting dolls... Tobirama and Kawarama almost look to be twins. Hashirama has full dark features, Tobirama full white, Kawarama has white hair black eyebrows and Itama is halfsies. Quite inventive if you ask me, too much thought for clansmen.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 05:28, April 3, 2013 (UTC)

Again there is no proof everyone who is a brother was named as such. And appearance doesn't mean anything, Madara, Izuna, Sasuke, Shisui look alike, Ensui, Shikamaru and Shikaku look alike and are not brothers, Naruto and Nawaki look alike, and they have probably more than 10 generations separation, then you have Neji and Tokuma Hyuga who look like twins and Hoheto and Tokuma Hyuga also look somewhat like them and yet they are not brothers. There are also close relatives like Konohamaru, Hiruzen and Asuma Sarutobi that don't look anything alike. Also Hashirama and Tobirama don't look anything alike and if you look at Senju clan picture you can see two shinobi that look like Hashirama but no one looks like Tobirama. Again Several shinobi from Uchiha clan look like Fugaku and Itachi but no one like Sasuke (the last members). Hashirama was remembering someone it was not stated who in his memori and that boy looked a lot older than 8 but again it was probably Kawarama, but there is no reason to think that he is a brother why shouldn't he remember dead clans member when someone talks about dead brothers ? Also when he talked with Madara he didn't say another one of my brothers was killed but my little brother as if it was first time, it is not a common sense to assume that someone is related because Hashirama got punched. Anyone would have punched him if he talked at funeral like that. The one who sent Kawarama to his death is Butsuma that's why he felt attacked. If you sent children to war you are responsable if they die. And if we are making relatives based on resemblance than Kakashi, Tobirama, Jiraiya etc are related as well. Not to mention that Hinata referred to Neji as big brother at the chunin exam and later even though they are cousins. Wiki is written based on facts anyone who reads manga knew that Yondaime Hokage was Narutos father looooong before it was stated but it was not written on wiki because it was not confirmed and there was possibility that they were not related. And if the editing war starts there is no reason to assume that I would be blocked, I have written on wikipedia for years on many articles somethimes alomost whole wikis were written by me (like about series Charmed years ago) even though I changed nicknames. I get what you are saying but I don't agree that he is their brother and nothing you stated looks like a proof to me. Why not wait for data book before making assumptions there are always unimportant characters like guys that walk on the street we don't even notice when reading and if Kawarama is a brother it will be stated clearly or he will be referred to as Senju clan member and we will know it then for sure ? And I am not looking for editing war I have better things to do but his name is put in major characters profiles and its poking in the eyes. Why not simply ad possibly brother at least if all of you feel that strong about it ? Just so that people who are not into reading manga are warned that it was not confirmed, that would be within the rules and spirit of wikipedia. Again I don't want an editing war but just to point out facts, I wish you all nice day and I apologize for such long post and for forgetting my nickname. I look forward to see what your thoughts are now and if you still disagree with me. 176.76.109.71 (talk) 11:05, April 3, 2013 (UTC)

You say it yourself, there weren't many Senju with white hair, thus the likelihood of Kawarama not being their brother is even slimmer--Elveonora (talk) 11:22, April 3, 2013 (UTC)

In chapter 625 on page where Madara and Hashirama shake hands and clans meet there are 3 Senju clan members visible with white hair. The rest has dark.176.76.109.71 (talk) 18:30, April 3, 2013 (UTC)

come on guys, you are assuming things here. none of the so called evidences indicationg kawarama is his brother is compelling enough to put it on the wiki. therefore, this information is based on speculation. This is ridiculous. In some cases that I've seen here in this wiki the rule of "speculation don't belong in the article and get removed" is followed very strictly, but in some other cases admins and other ranked people in the wikia just ignore this rule. just because you wish kawarama was their brother doesn't make it a true fact.--201.55.81.162 (talk) 20:41, April 12, 2013 (UTC)

For crying out loud... This discussion has been going on for weeks, and quite frankly, it's not going anywhere. First off, I agree with all of my fellow Narutopedia editors. It's was EXTREMELY obvious that Kawarama is Hashirama's younger brother. Although not clearly stated by said character, Hashirama's comment to Madara during their talk and the fact that he remembered Kawarama and his brother is kinda of a big give away. Kishi-sensei does not need to spoon-feed us every bit of information when evidence is shown through via images and comments. It is common sense, and it is not speculation!-- Ninja Sheik  22:40, April 12, 2013 (UTC)


 * If I'm still discussing this is because I want to make the article correct, I care about that. If I didn't, like everyone else writing here do, I wouldn't waste my time here. NO it was not extremely obvious that kawarama is hashiram's brother, quite the opposite. You all are not getting the point and context of the story. there was a reason why hashirama remembered kawarama, even if they weren't siblings. hashirama was a great visionary and had a great heart even at his youg age, he cared more about the greater good of people than his own, his clan's or his family's (in this order), that's why he wanted to create a village, that's why kawarama even existed in this chapter, to make a point in the story of children dying at shinobi wars, which was one of the reasons hashirama had this ideal of creating the village. after the village was created, the children were once again mentioned, saying they could live like children, without fighting and dying at wars. When the article of Obito was referring to him as Tobi all the time, that also really annoyed me and there were many discussions to change it, and the same happened, some people who have the power to protect the article etc didnt agree. Finally, now, that article was correct. I guess the smae will happen in this one--Holyn (talk) 17:06, April 13, 2013 (UTC)

Well actually, apparently the first time Hashirama came with idea of protecting children, was because of Kawarama, his death affected him, he then promised to protect his other younger brothers. Unfortunately, Itama was killed but Tobirama was not. When he remembered both Kawarama and Itama, Madara was OBViOUSLY of course talking about his brothers, that's what makes Hashirama to remember his one's as well. As uncle sheik said, it's a common sense not a speculation, and Kishi-sensei doesn't need to prove everything (more or less), as some are confirmed through images, pictures or flashbacks. Thank you and sorry for the bad English ^_^. THANKYOU Small brother (talk) 06:18, April 14, 2013 (UTC)

Unlce? Dude... I'm a girl, just to let you know.-- Ninja Sheik  16:48, April 14, 2013 (UTC)

Just be glad he agrees with ya ._. --Elveonora (talk) 17:19, April 14, 2013 (UTC)

Nope, madara was talking about his brothers having been killed by senju (hashirama already knew madara's brothers were killed, just didn't know that it was by senju) then hashirama remembered Itama and kawarama, because both were killed by uchiha, both were children, both were recently killed. Therefore your argument is flawed, the information is not confirmed, it's speculation and should be deleted. Just saying, this information is not 100% confirmed or proved, why put it here when there is a good chance of it being wrong? Just wait and see, when official data come out and you realize you're wrong for jumping to conclusions, but you will not learn the lesson and in some next article this will happen again.--189.110.250.127 (talk) 01:39, April 15, 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps we should email Kishi with every little detail, I bet there's at least 1000 things that need more clarification currently. Again, MAAAAAAAAAAAAANY Senju children were dying back then, no reason to recall only Kawarama if he weren't his brother--Elveonora (talk) 12:19, April 15, 2013 (UTC)

Gender and Kanji
Just noting that neither his gender nor his Japanese name is confirmed (except of the Senju-part, ofc). Seelentau 愛議 12:50, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

Hashirama said he is male. He said he. THANKYOU Small brother (talk) 15:29, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

Confirmation = Japanese raw, not scanlation.--Elveonora (talk) 15:32, February 27, 2013 (UTC)

Oh ok understood, sorry. THANKYOU Small brother (talk) 15:34, February 27, 2013 (UTC)


 * Well, about the gender, there's nothing that really indicates what gender he has. The only word besides his name is 奴, which can either mean "he" or "she". Seelentau 愛議 11:33, March 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * While it would be on the side of speculation, we do have a precedence, all other Senju with names ending in "ama" (間) are all male. I don't think we'd be far off to note that Kawarama was male. On the other hand we do only know one female Senju whose name meant peach tree...--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 17:52, March 2, 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, I could note how the Kanji is written with the Kanji for 'woman', but that doesn't mean anything. Let's make him a boy. Seelentau 愛議 18:53, March 2, 2013 (UTC)

The article already says it was a male, singular of Shinobi means male ninja, not a Kunoichi, also "his" is being used--Elveonora (talk) 05:05, March 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * Shinobi does not mean 'male ninja' and no, there is no 'his' used in the raw. Seelentau 愛議 11:49, March 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * "...when part of his body was retrieved, it was buried alongside his other fallen comrades..."79.223.93.104 (talk) 12:07, March 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * ...in the raw. I don't care about what the translation says. Seelentau 愛議 14:31, March 3, 2013 (UTC)

Seel, we usually refer to female ninja as Kunoichi, thus "Shinobi" in singular sounds masculine, perhaps something more gender neutral should be used--Elveonora (talk) 15:02, March 3, 2013 (UTC)
 * You can call me Tau, if you want. Seel makes no sense in German^^ Shinobi is gender neutral. Seelentau 愛議 15:14, March 3, 2013 (UTC)

Pan Tau? :D:D:D Perhaps eel ._.--Elveonora (talk) 15:26, March 3, 2013 (UTC)

Infobox
Hey why is their part 1 on the age of his Infobox I don't think its needed ?--Jmootam1999 (talk) 22:31, March 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * Changed. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:56, March 9, 2013 (UTC)

Image
In the new chapter, there is a panel where Hashirama remembers two boys. One of them is Itama, and the other one is obviously for me it's Kawarama. Should we put his image on the article?



186.204.178.25 (talk) 13:25, March 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * An image has been added.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 14:30, March 19, 2013 (UTC)

Wasn't he mentioned in the previous chapter or so? --Questionaredude (talk) 14:44, March 19, 2013 (UTC)
 * Yes, he was.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 15:03, March 19, 2013 (UTC)


 * Shouldn't his debut chapter be back then if that is the case? --Questionaredude (talk) 15:10, March 19, 2013 (UTC)

Not quite. Shisui was mentioned all the way back in part 1, but he didn't actually appear until flashbacks showed him during the Five Kage Summit arc. If we left mentions as debut, Itachi would have debuted all the way back to the introduction arc. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:15, March 19, 2013 (UTC)

age
this is going to sound really rude, but hear me out, kawarama senju was introduced in a flashback during part two when his age was stated, but the time he lived/died was prior to either "parts" of the series, so i don't see why his age says "part II:7" when the "part II" should be dropped, just because he appeared in that part. It was a flashback to a time long before the actual story, and this is what i meant by "rude", that's the kind of mistake a child would make, specifically in the anime when Zabuza's flashback depicted him as being reanimated even though he shouldn't have been back then, its the same thing. Since i've been here that's the most uncouth thing i've ever said, but there is some truth to it, unless there's another reason for the "part 2" being there that i didn't pick up on, but his appearance being in part 2 and not 1, even though he was already dead by both is the only reason i can think of why his age is, well, i think you all get the idea. --Caseather (talk) 21:13, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

He debuted in Part II. of the plot, it doesn't refer to the character living in fictional era of pre-x point in the series. For example, let's say it's currently year 2000 in Naruto. Even if Kishi had decided to move in time and in Part I. had shown someone living in 2030, while Part II. takes place 2004, we would have listed it as Part I. not Part III. or Part X --Elveonora (talk) 21:55, March 27, 2013 (UTC)

Proof
Is there any kind of Proof that he is Hashiramas Brother?-- 22:17, June 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Read the gigantic topic about it above. Specifically the part he's remembered when they're talking about dead siblings. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:34, June 21, 2014 (UTC)