Talk:Kaguya Ōtsutsuki

Uzumaki Clan
It isnt confirmed Hagoromo Otsutsuki' 05:40, June 20, 2014 (UTC)HagoromoOtsutsuki
 * No. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 12:17, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

On Hagoromo becoming stronger than Kaguya
Those that say otherwise, please explain why this shouldn't be put inside the Trivia section: Though Hagoromo did admit that Kaguya was stronger than him, since he did defeat Kaguya/Shinju twice (Sealing them inside him with help from his brother then sealing them inside the moon) means that he technically became stronger than Kaguya and he gained 3 godly chakra sources (his, Kaguya's, and the Shinju).

I think this because when you defeat someone in battle, even if it's just for 1 battle, you're stronger than them.

If people disagree with this, please explain why. --Mike 05:54, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

Manga fact....hagoromo admitted his mother was stronger Hagoromo Otsutsuki' 06:00, June 20, 2014 (UTC)HagoromoOtsutsuki

I know that, however, he said that she "was" stronger. That is, past tense. Defeating your enemy means that your stronger. Even before Kaguya was introduced, it was stated that he became to be revered as a god for defeating another god, the Shinju. In turn, I think that dictates that he became a stronger god than the goddess that his mom was. --Mike 06:05, June 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hagoromo also "was" alive. Atrix471 (talk) 16:28, June 29, 2014 (UTC)

Xundoshi dont edit others comments regardless of grammar also hagoromo stated his mother was far stronger then him.Hagoromo Otsutsuki' 06:18, June 20, 2014 (UTC)HagoromoOtsutsuki

I'm trying to edit only my comments. --Mike 06:25, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

Huh? Hagoromo Otsutsuki' 06:31, June 20, 2014 (UTC)HagoromoOtsutsuki

I wasn't trying to edit other people's comments. I was only trying edit my own comments (shorten sentences, changing the words). --Mike 06:35, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

MY bad i didnt know you was Xundoshi Hagoromo Otsutsuki' 06:42, June 20, 2014 (UTC)HagoromoOtsutsuki

I'm putting my name as Mike because I find it easier to put for my signature (it's also because Michael is my real name). --Mike 06:45, June 20, 2014 (UTC)

Just because Hagoromo beat Kaguya doesn't mean he's stronger; it's not always the stronger person that wins a fight. Naruto beat Kabuto when he was way weaker than Kabuto. If it was Dragonball Z, then you could say that, but in this series factors of victory are varied, ranging from luck, timing, carelessness, being stronger, being more prepared, being a bad match up... the factors go on and on. Among the many Kage level shinobi, we can't truely say who is stronger cause some are more suited for fighting some more than others..... it's like rock paper scissors. With so many factors involved, we can't truly say who is stronger. Victory doesn't automatically mean your better. The better person doesn't always win.--Deathmailrock (talk) 23:20, June 23, 2014 (UTC)

Rectifying the Kaguya-Shinju Contradiction
How can Kaguya be the "Progenitor of chakra" if the Shinju is the "Origin of all chakra", as stated in their articles? By no means am I trying to be difficult but maybe it should be mentioned that Kaguya is the progenitor, or foremother, of all chakra that dwells within humans/human chakra. And the shinju is the originator of everything else that consists of chakra, e.g. animals like the toad and snake sages. Cause I doubt they got their chakra passed down from Kaguya as well. In short, I can see visitors of the wiki getting confused when they glance past their articles.--The Zeitgeist (talk) 23:52, June 20, 2014 (UTC)
 * Chapter 681 was confusing, and we're waiting for the raws for clarification, since there are so many discrepancies between the scanlations. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:19, June 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * "Rectifying the Kaguya-Shinju Contradiction" That sounds painful. Unless you're into that sort of stuff. You know what I mean. Biddy-biddy-biddy-biddy-biddy. --Silver-Haired Seireitou (talk) 01:57, June 21, 2014 (UTC)

Sharingan/Rinnegan info.
"Kaguya >manifested an incarnation of the Shinju< that would become known as the Ten-Tails, intent on reclaiming the chakra she felt was rightfully hers."

"Sharingan and Rinnegan Kaguya wields her Rinnegan and Sharingan together as a third eye on her forehead in the >form of the Shinju's eye.<" - Now, on her page is says she created the Shinju.. So doesn't that mean that the Shinju has HER eye? Not the other way around? SusanooUnleashed (talk) 05:15, June 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * Kaguya manifested the beast form (Ten-Tails), not the Shinju itself. We don't have the details yet, so we don't know who had the red Rinnegan/Sharingan eye first.--BeyondRed (talk) 06:21, June 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * So much speculation in the article...--Elveonora (talk) 11:37, June 21, 2014 (UTC)

My thoughts exactly, Elve. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 11:41, June 21, 2014 (UTC)

At this point, it isn't clear if the Shinju even had any eye to begin with. When Obito summoned a copy of it, it had the eye, but that was post-Kaguya merger. There isn't any indication that it had any eye before Kaguya ate its fruit or whatever did to it. Also Kaguya doesn't wield both Sharingan and Rinnegan as the third eye, the third eye is called just a Rinnegan.--Elveonora (talk) 12:39, June 21, 2014 (UTC)

Kinkaku and Ginkaku
I noticed its no longer mentioned that the Gold and Silver Brothers are possibly her descendants. I feel it should be re-listed, i mean the family resemblance is rather obvious. Shadowfox337 (talk) 11:18, June 21, 2014 (UTC)
 * They were never said to be her descendants, but possibly the Sage's. Logic would dictate that they are her's as well; but that is not something we should mention in the article despite how "obvious" it is.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 12:45, June 21, 2014 (UTC)

Technique List
Can somebody add Dimensional Shifting to the infobox? I have no idea how to do this, if I even can. Atrix471 (talk) 10:00, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

Yin-Yang release?
Considering she tanked an Amaterasu. Not sure if that can simply be attributed to chakra absorption since Obito did the very same thing--Elveonora (talk) 19:26, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well it's either that or the Preta path, but I'm not even sure if the third eye allows her to use the six paths. It could also be that she's just really, really durable and the whole 'only sage techniques work against Ten-Tails jinchūriki' thing. Atrix471 (talk) 19:34, June 25, 2014 (UTC)

Bump--Elveonora (talk) 14:23, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Being able to tank and absorb Amaterasu isn't necessarily indicative of Yin-Yang Release. If memory serves me well, when Obito did it didn't he also use the Truth-Seeking Balls? As far as I could gather, all she had done so far was tank stuff, but I'm no sure thats indicative of her absorbing it (which she could via Preta Path) or no-selling it (via Yin-Yang Releasing it).
 * Basically, I'm confused because I can't remember if she's absorbing stuff or just tanking it.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:33, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Considering Amaterasu is inextinguishable and is supposed to burn for days, she made it vanish. The reason why I think Amaterasu can't be absorbed is because when Nagato was set aflame with Amaterasu, he got rid of it using Deva Path instead of Preta Path--Elveonora (talk) 14:37, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * /shrug. She is no Nagato. But as I stated, no idea.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:50, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Black Zetsu literally said she absorbed it though. -- Koto Talk Page-My Contributions 15:01, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

Jinchūriki
So, this kinda needs to be dealt with. If the Ten-Tails is part Kaguya, part Shinju, is she really a jinchūriki? Cause is kinda hard to be a jinchūriki of something that is part... you. ._. Let me be very clear, because I know the factions that will jump in, this is not to be turned into an argument to merge Kaguya with the Ten-Tails. That isn't happening. But I find it hard to believe she could be a jinchūriki of something she is part of. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 23:38, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * Probably not. Then again, Probably so, considering her body right now isn't technically her body but Madara's body covered in Black Zetsu + massive amounts of chakra and somehow bewbs. She is very confusing. But I'd go with "she's not a jinchuriki because the Ten-Tails is part her" camp.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 23:47, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * She isn't a jinchuuriki because she is a Tailed Beast guys. Also no offense, but your behavior is kinda schizophrenic to me. Ten-Tails is her beast form, having it split is letter by letter, crazy. We don't have a separate article for Orochimaru's snake form, do we?--Elveonora (talk) 23:58, June 25, 2014 (UTC)
 * I just told you not to turn this into that argument. There is no merger. You were overwhelmingly disagreed with. It's not happening. So either weigh in on the subject matter, or not at all. Stay on topic. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 00:00, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Just because I was disagreed with by the trinity doesn't mean I'm wrong. Being a sysop doesn't make you always right, sorry to break your bubble. And I already weighted in, I propose removal of jinchuuriki status. For the merger, If the sole reason it isn't happening is because there's "sysop" behind your username, then gimme a sec, I'm gonna edit a shot of my profile with "sysop" added there so I'm taken more seriously and my argument is more valid, because that's exactly how it works here.--Elveonora (talk) 00:06, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Wrong again. Of the six people that told you "no", three were sysops. Its not happening. Get over it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 00:09, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Enough both of you. While there will be no merger, that is not the point of this discussion. I am more than willing to remove the jinchuriki part. I think. Like I said the only thing that bothers me the whole "her body is technically Madara's" thing. But eh, details and nobody else is really thinking that.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk)

I don't think there's anything of Madara left at this point. Back then during the Pain arc, Naruto was transforming into Kurama, had it happened, Naruto would have ceased to exist, right? I don't see how is it any different. Madara was overwhelmed by Kaguya--Elveonora (talk) 00:17, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Agreed. Madara seems to be gone completely by this point. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 00:19, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

So Madara moves from "Presumed Deceased" to "Deceased?" K. By the way I have a question. The tree seen in chapter 670. Wasn't that the Shinju before Kaguya merged with it (The mural that appeared when Madara was talking to Hashirama seems to support this)? Oh and by the way... she isn't a jinchuuriki. It makes no sense at this point. Hagoromo sealed her within himself. Back to my question, what do you think about that tree? WindStar7125  (Talk) 01:01, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, the tree is Shinju, why do you question that?--Elveonora (talk) 12:04, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

Then why isn't it in the infobox? WindStar7125  (Talk) 16:05, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * You mean the image? No idea, people are all ignorant about this. The Ten-Tails is yet to be separated from the Shinju article, but I don't care, not my credibility at stake. People who read the manga properly know what is true and need no wiki to tell them their version of it--Elveonora (talk) 16:07, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

It's really, really hard to wait for the raws, hm? • Seelentau 愛 議 16:47, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * We don't? I thought we already had them.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 16:56, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Nope, 481 and 482 aren't out yet... • Seelentau 愛 議 17:20, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * The latest raw I could find is from 676--Elveonora (talk) 17:25, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Oh, I meant 681 and 682, lol. • Seelentau 愛 議 17:28, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

Glad that's cleared up. By the way the tree in this image  is what I'm talking about. I'm thinking that was the Shinju before Kaguya interfered. I'm thinking that image should be in the infobox. The tree in this mural  seems to support this as well. WindStar7125  (Talk) 17:33, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * I know and it indeed is, meaning the thin version that Obito spawned wasn't the original Shinju form, but a Shinju replica created from the Ten-Tails--Elveonora (talk) 17:35, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

Well, that was known as Obito's Tailed Beast Mode in the Jinchuuriki Forms article, and going off of what the article said, Tailed Beast Mode is a replica of the actual Tailed Beast. So yes, I agree with you. WindStar7125  (Talk) 17:38, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * The Shinju isn't even a Tailed Beast, the Ten-Tails is--Elveonora (talk) 17:52, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

So this is what I think. The links I just posted was the tree, pre-Kaguya. This picture File:Ten Tails blossom.png, which is what this wiki has in the Shinju infobox deemed the "Original Form" was the tree, post-Kaguya, when she fused with it. Then the tree became its "Beast Form"  and attacked Hagoromo and Hamura. @Elve do you agree? Plus, are there any objections? WindStar7125  (Talk) 18:02, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * So here's a fun history lesson. Technically the Ten-Tails isn't either. I have gone on record stating that we classified the Ten-Tails wrong because well, it was simple and not so much of a stretch. When it was first revealed, the Ten-Tails should have been classified as something along the lines of "Demon". However, it was easier to incorporate it at the end of the tailed beast list. So yeah. That happened.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:06, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * And to go off again, the yeah the picture of the tree being called a Tailed Beast Mode was once again, done simply to make life easier, this time directly by yours truly. Considering that Obito was the Ten-Tails, while separate from his body, as the jinchuriki the tree was an extension of his body and that was how tailed beast mode worked at all, I named the picture such to save time. So yeah. Another history lesson.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:09, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * I know, TBs are only 9 and are Hagoromo's creation, but well, the Ten-Tails is the "progenitor" of TBs. It has traits of one, like Tailed Beast Ball etc. so the classification is neither correct nor incorrect I guess. And the tree Obito spawned was indeed some weird sort of Tailed Beast Mode, but that's not what the topic is about. We shouldn't use the Obito's version as infobox image for the Shinju, but rather how it looked originally with the fruit and all--Elveonora (talk) 18:24, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Well no actual picture of that exists either. I mean the same mural used the sharp teeth rawr form of the Ten-Tails. And the only reason why that one is being used is because just about every other picture of the second form sucked at the time and that one was just about the most "iconic" form it appeared in so it was "literally settle for the next best thing".
 * TL;DR: We don't actually know what giant tree looked like originally, but we do know that current giant tree is probably close, considering everyone did know it to be the Ten-Tails final form.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:29, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

Ultimate, how about the tree in chapter 670? Here.  Isn't that the original Shinju? Hagoromo didn't show Naruto a random tree for no reason. WindStar7125  (Talk) 18:36, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * TheUltimate3. And I'm not going to outright remove the scanlation image because I think I was told we didn't have to, but I will ask that you not do so because blatant use of scanlation scares me greatly.
 * Now that being said, I had no memory of such a panel. It would probably work if not for the giant bloody chat bubbles but I'm sure a raw wouldn't fix that in the slightest. Someone get a raw of that panel and party dance.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:38, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * We may nicely ask Seelentau I guess--Elveonora (talk) 18:40, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

@TheUltimate3, I had no intentions of using the scanlations. Sorry for scaring you. Just wanted you to see the picture, raws are harder to find. How about this?  WindStar7125   (Talk) 18:43, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Found the raw and it is uploaded. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 18:44, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

Damn Foxie, that was fast! Eavesdropping much? :) Anyway, I'll put it in the infobox if no one else will. WindStar7125   (Talk) 18:46, June 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * Already did that too. I'm a ninja. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 18:47, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, you sure are. WindStar7125  (Talk) 18:47, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

Should we cut out the chakra fruit in that image or nah? WindStar7125  (Talk) 18:48, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

@Foxie, greatly appreciated. Also finally a topic with conclusion and results without the need for anyone to tear out his hair :P @Windstar, I don't see why would we cut the fruit--Elveonora (talk) 18:50, June 26, 2014 (UTC)


 * The fruit does make the picture longer. Cutting it out wouldn't be that much issue.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 18:53, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Details, people, details. Done. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 18:55, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

Then what was that tree that Obito summoned? Apparently, it co-existed with the Ten-Tails after Madara revived it. That tree must've been a "replica" as the Tailed Beast Mode section in the Jinchuuriki Forms article states. WindStar7125  (Talk) 18:55, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Gonna assume that just as the Ten-Tails can take on whatever form it wants, the jinchuriki can do the same to the trees original form. And when the Eye of the Moon plan calls for the Rinnegan to be close to the moon, he probably changed it as such. As to why it continued to exist after the Ten-Tails was turned back into the statue, well who the hell knows.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 19:02, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * ...now i like it more with the fruit. /NarutopediaProblems.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 19:03, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

Eh... sorry @Ten Tailed Fox, I'm with TU3. Can we keep the fruit? Like Elve said, greatly appreciated. WindStar7125  (Talk) 19:08, June 26, 2014 (UTC)
 * Done. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Sasuke's Rinnegan (Purple).svg 19:11, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

Did She Really Eat the Fruit?
From what the latest chapters told us (I can't remember if it was 681 or 682 cuz I read them together), Kaguya is an extension of the Shinju and implies the fruit eating story is not true, a fabrication, or an assumption/folklore.

And if you read into the story of the Bamboo Cutter from which her name comes, Kaguya-hime was found by a bamboo cutter inside a stalk of bamboo, which I think confirms the implications of the latest chapters. Bentheechidna (talk) 18:14, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, she ate the fruit and no, she's not an extension of the Shinju. • Seelentau 愛 議 18:19, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * She indeed ate the fruit and the Ten-Tails is basically her transformation as a result of that.--Elveonora (talk) 19:59, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Na. Otherwise, how would she be able to give birth to her sons? • Seelentau 愛 議 20:44, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * She can transform at will possibly, we may see soon enough--Elveonora (talk) 21:23, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * So she ate the fruit, transformed, turned back human(?), gave birth to her sons, transformed again, rampaged the lands and was sealed at last? Yeah... no. If the translations are correct, the currenct description of her doings in the article are what happened. • Seelentau 愛 議 21:30, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * The article says the same thing--Elveonora (talk) 21:39, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Pulling this straight out my arse, the article states that she ate the fruit, got chakra, went Psycho Crazy Level 1, had 2 sons, they got chakra, Went Psycho Crazy Level 10, she manifested with the Shinju to create the Ten-Tails, went on rampage, got pwned.
 * I think what Seelentau implied that you were saying that was she ate fruit, became Psycho Crazy Level 10, mellowed to Psycho Crazy Level 1, had 2 sons, they got chakra, went back to Psycho Crazy level 10, manifested with Shinju to create Ten-Tails.
 * Or some such.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 21:52, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * From what I understand, Black Zetsu states that she was both in Chapter 681. "First, the Juubi...it wasn't just the holy tree. My mother was part of it too. It wasn't the holy tree that was trying to take back its chakra fruit. It was my mother's will, that was trying to take back the chakra...that was shared between her two sons. Not even Hagoromo knows of this."
 * This flat out states that the Shinju, Juubi, and Kaguya are all the same being, and implies that Kaguya never stole a fruit and stole the tree's power, because she was the tree and the ten tails.

Bentheechidna (talk) 22:00, June 28, 2014 (UTC)

No, she and the Shinju were definitely (like that's not even up to an argument) two separate things originally, even BZ makes such a distinction. If Kaguya and Shinju were one, then he would have said so, rather than stating that two things make up the Ten-Tails. How and when exactly she became the Ten-Tails is something I couldn't care less about. Be it from having eaten the Shinju's fruit, literary merging with the tree or a failed attempt at coupling with it which resulted in her being permanently stuck. One way or another, Ten-Tails = both Kaguya and Shinju. Although we know that she only ate its fruit, that's why I presume it is most likely how she became the Ten-Tails. Her being possibly capable to turn into a monster, back to a "human", back to monster and then "human" again wouldn't be anything strange or new, Orochimaru can do that just fine.--Elveonora (talk) 22:07, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Then why would she transform into the TT for the first time? • Seelentau 愛 議 22:21, June 28, 2014 (UTC)
 * Let's wait for Kishi to tell us her reasons. Although she seems to be "special (word that guy used as a synonym for retarded a few days back) with first giving birth to her sons and then wanting to take back what she gave them.--Elveonora (talk) 22:27, June 28, 2014 (UTC)

Anyway, I hope the story won't turn out into something that can be summed up with: "I wish they had invented a preservative earlier"--Elveonora (talk) 22:32, June 28, 2014 (UTC)

mind*uck
Can we really consider her techniques to be Ninjutsu, considering her son invented Ninshu from which Ninjutsu came to be?--Elveonora (talk) 15:57, June 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm pretty sure Ninjutsu is just the term used for the melding of physical and spiritual energies to create any technique. Ninshu became Ninjutsu because people weaponized the chakra Hagoromo gave them, but Kaguya had already weaponized her's way before everyone gained chakra from him. Since she was the only one capable of it at the time they probably just didn't name it. Atrix471 (talk) 16:14, June 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * I know, but the term in itself wasn't invented until after Hagoromo + she isn't even a ninja, so she doesn't use ninjutsu--Elveonora (talk) 16:18, June 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Hagoromo isn't a ninja either, he's a priest. Should we take Ninjutsu off every Rinnegan technique? Besides, terms can still be applied to preceding things, so long as they fit the category. Atrix471 (talk) 16:26, June 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Just asking, because someone around these parts told me sometime ago that Samurai despite utilizing chakra in the same way Ninja do aren't using Ninjutsu. So let me get this straight:


 * ninja channeling chakra through a weapon = ninjutsu
 * some princess or a priest channeling chakra through a weapon = still would be ninjutsu
 * samurai doing just the same = not ninjutsu :P--Elveonora (talk) 16:40, June 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Maybe we should just say 'chakra is screwy' and ignore this for now... because I don't even know anymore. Atrix471 (talk) 16:55, June 29, 2014 (UTC)