Board Thread:Versus Debates/@comment-30966312-20180413200754/@comment-33959444-20180526201937

@Nashikeine Not sure if Sasuke became stronger than Madara there, though.

It is stated that switching dimensions was starting to take a toll, but I don't believe Black Zetsu stated it took a load of Chakra. Kaguya was able to spam it pretty much the entire fight.

Yeah, Naurto was able to hurt Madara because he had Six Paths Senjutsu. Being able to hurt him and destroying him are different things. Cutting the Shinju in half is a great feat, though. And Naruto sort of did go to recoup because didn't he sense Sasuke's Chakra and wait for him? I forgot.

If you're referring to the Chakra clash, then Naruto was actually beaten pretty handily. Kaguya was smiling during the clash, showing she wasn't using very much effort. Naruto was screaming and was knocked away and spinning very rapidly to the point he couldn't save Sasuke.

Killing Momoshiki with a base Rasengan is a nice feat, but tbf, Momoshiki was sort of distracted while that happened and I believe the Rinnegan on his hands were stabbed with kunai, so he couldn't absorb it. Naruto and Sasuke were weakened and were still smacking him around, true. But I don't think that puts them at Hagoromo level because again, I simply don't buy Momoshiki being stronger than Kaguya or even equal. He doesn't have enough feats in my opinion. Even the Kage were able to deal a lot of damage to Kinshiki and immobilize him and were able to hold their own against (base) Momoshiki. Unless if the Kage are just a lot stronger than their predecessors, I feel like Kaguya could have stomped them all way harder than momo and Kinshiki.

Yes, we have no way to confirm how powerful prime Kaguya was. Not only did she in the War Arc have an incomplete Ten Tails, but she also didn't have all the Chakra on Earth, different from her prime.

Okay, I misssed that. So, reincarnations do give power. But do we know if reincarnations gain all the power of Ashura and Indra or just some of their Chakra?

I didn't say Uzumaki had to do with those forms. I was just saying that his power was Uzumaki reserves as well as all those forms.

Maybe, but let's not forget that Kaguya was probably trying to take their Chakra away and wasn't bloodlusted. Similarly, we have characters like Juubito and Juubidara who could have destroyed many people, but didn't. For example, Juubito was far stronger than Tobirama, but didn't destroy him. Juubidara was far stronger thanMinato, but didn't kill him. It was either plot or because they weren't bloodlusted or because these characters were just very evasive. Same could apply to Hagoromo and Hamura against Kaguya.

If there was no fixed amount of Chakra, then the entire thing about the Divine Tree and Chakra Fruit doesn't make sense. Madara stated that after all Chakra on EArth was collected, a new Chakra Fruit would bloom. I think that characters that had Chakra that birthed children, the children already had Chakra because their parents did. That probably explains Kaguya and Hagoromoand Hamura being born with Chakra.

No, even before the Boruto Manga and Anime, we did know there were more Ootsutsuki looking at how there were the side and main branches of the Ootsutsuki. If you watch the Last, you could see Toneri and his entire clan. These were Hamura's descendants. If Hamura had these descendants, it only makes sense that Kaguya also came from a big bloodline of Ootsutsuki. And we know that Urashiki even was taking orders from the main branch, so he was either taking orders from Momoshiki and Kinshiki or there are separate Ootsutsuki giving them orders. That's why I think Kaguya was fearing the whole clan as oppose to only momoshiki and Kinshiki. And if you include the Anime filler arc, if you lkook at the silhouettes of momoshiki and Kinshiki, you can see a third, probably Urashiki or somebody else.

Minato said that whoever the masked man was, he was incredible because he could control the demon fox, summon it, and have space-time techniques greater than Tobirama and Minato. I guess you could include the control of the Nine Tails, but I also have another example. Remember that Jiraiya stated only Madara could summon the Nine Tails. It was stated by Konan that Pain was invincible. Also stated in the Manga that Pain was the strongest Akatsuki. Later on, Naruto learns that Obito was maniplating Pain. He implies that Obito is stronger by saying, "How can a guy this strong be manipulated?" It's even stated later by Obito that Nagato was his subordinate. Imo, the part about greater threats could just be hyping the duo up.

These feats are nice, but the thing is we have no way to gauge how powerful SPSM Kurama Avatar is without saying Momoshiki is stronger than Kaguya. We have no way of gauging Momoshiki's power without saying SPSM Kurama Avatar fought against momoshiki. It's sort of a paradox. And for crossing dimensions, it could just be interpreted as them having superior Space-Time ninjutsu. Remember that Obito could also cross through Kaguya's dimensions without any stress. Even Boruto has shown that with his unmastered Jougan, he could pass through Nue's dimension.

Yes, it was stated by Madara when explaining the history of Chakra to Hashirama that Hagoromo was born with Chakra. This could either be true or it could be Madara being wrong (remember that Black Zetsu changed things in the Uchiha Stone Tablet).

It's debatable whether if Hagoromo was born with Chakra or got Chakra shared to him.

Nevermind, SM is sort of enhanced because it BM allowed Naruto to enter SM more quickly, but it isn't explained if SM power is enhanced with Kyuubi Chakra or not. SPSM is enhanced, but not multiplied. Not sure how Naruto would manage to double his Chakra.

No, proably not with less Chakra. If he divided Kurama in half, then he would have his own Chakra + SM + half Kurama. Other half only has half of Kurama Avatar Chakra.

Never explained if he can divide Kurama, but it's the only thing that makes sense.

Toneri did cut the moon in half, but I don't think he's TTJ Madara levels in power. If I remember correctly, he cut through the hollow moon. Remember that the Ten Tails was so strong that it, in the sensory division, sort of formed its own mini "planet." This was the first form of the Ten Tails, if I remember correctly. Juubi Jinchurikis are far stronger than the Ten Tails. Hagoromo even stated that the revival of the Ten Tails would result the end of the world. Juubito stated the Sword of Nunoboko shaped the world and that he could just as easily destroy the world. Madara was stronger than SPSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke individually who were stronger than Toneri. Remember that they made a moon in Kaguya's dimension pretty casually.

And Toneri's power was increased becasue he gained the Tenseigan.

My bad. My wording was wrong. My point was that she was immortal to dying by damage, not immortal to damage.

No, Kaguya did actually heal her arm after being hit by that attack.

Didn't Hagoromo also say that Kaguya had to be sealed though? I don't remember.

Okay, true, but the question is this. Can adult Naruto really do much to Kaguya? Even SPSM Naruto in the War Arc was stomped by Kaguya alone. I am aware that Naruto obviously got stronger later on, but will it make a difference? The thing is that he can't seal her. The only way to defeat her is by killing her, which may be impossible. Even if it was possible, Kaguya was so strong that SPSM Naruto and Rikudou Sasuke took forever just to seal her away, and sealing her away literally just requries them to touch her at the same time. Will being an adult make him that much stronger? Even if it does, will it fill in the even bigger gap which is that Kaguya got exponentially stronger after making the Expansive Truthseeker Orb? Even if it does fill that gap, will it fill in the gap between prime Kaguya and War Arc Kaguya? We don't really have answers for all this.

@Starscream1998 Probably plot.