Talk:Chidori

Origins
It's something that has bothered me for a bit and I kinda just want to have it answered here so it can be referenced: where was it ever said that the Chidori was a result of the failed attempt to make "Lightning Release: Rasengan?"--Cerez 365 ™(talk) 22:12, January 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Around the time Naruto was learning nature transformation. Don't recall the exact chapter. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:29, January 4, 2013 (UTC)
 * Lawx I re-read the entire training period and even checked when Kakashi actually first used the Rasengan, can't find a mention of it any where. The closest I came was Kakashi saying in the Gaiden that his technique was like Minato's moniker.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 22:58, January 4, 2013 (UTC)

it's chpt 321--
 * Care to cite a page as well. Because in that chapter Kakashi says nothing that sounds like "i failed to add lightning release to the Rasengan but made Chidori in the process".--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 08:25, January 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * he doesn't say that because that's not what happened. chidori is an alternative to lightning rasengan and not a byproduct. pg 7, 'if that were the case i wouldn't have needed to develop chidori.' pg 9, 'i wasn't able to combine my elementally recomposed lightning chakra with the spatially recomposed chakra of the rasengan.'
 * Page 7: Kakashi explained spatial re-composition using the Chidori as an example. Page 9/10 he does say that he would have never had needed to create Chidori, however, he does not say that the Chidori is a failed Lightning Release: Rasengan. If you notice he said he wouldn't have had to create the Chidori and if you look at the two techniques, at least for me, there is no similarities in design except for spatial re-composition. It does sound like he might have used the "Lightning Release: Rasengan" as a basis for the Chidori but not "hey the Lightning Release: Rasengan failed but I'll call this Chidori.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 13:30, January 26, 2013 (UTC)


 * Apparantly, chidori is not a failed Lightning Release: Rasengan. It was just that he couldn't do it; So he created chidori.

"Kakashi"

- When Kakashi learned how to use the Rasengan, he attempted to infuse it with lightning-chakra as it was originally intended to be combined with element chakra, but ultimately failed. However, he used the same theoretical principle to create the Chidori.


 * That sums it up ;)~ Ultimate  Supreme  13:42, January 26, 2013 (UTC)
 * Exactly, he took elements from it and engineered the Chidori, in a similar manner to Minato who thought he was b/a enough to use the Tailed Beast Ball.--Cerez 365 ™Hyūga Symbol.svg(talk) 13:48, January 26, 2013 (UTC)

Habataku Chidori
Where does that term come from? Seelentau 愛議 21:09, March 10, 2013 (UTC)

I think it was given that name in Ultimate Ninja 3. I did not know of it being named in the Anime though.--Yomiko-chan (talk) 21:21, March 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Just don't add It In the article If your not sure, try searching the term and trying to find out If It's been mentioned In the Anime but I don't think It has-- *J*E*A*N* *M*A*R*C* *D*A*I*C*H*O*U* *L*O*V*E*S* *N*A*R*U*T*O* 21:43, March 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not the only name for Cursed Seal Chidori, but I think it was the first. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:38, March 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * So... where does it come from? I don't play the Naruto games, was it named there? Is there any proof or source? Seelentau 愛議 22:43, March 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not 100% sure, but I think that it was used in passing somewhere in the Second Databook, not as a part of its own section, but in a text about the plot or something. I recall ShounenSuki using the term. Either that or in the artbook where that scene was colored. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:39, March 10, 2013 (UTC)
 * Couldn't find anything :/ Seelentau 愛議 08:23, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

Kinda offtopic, but the article states that it's black, should be noted that it was colored as purple in manga. Actually, it's not even it's own technique, just Chidori done with curse mark level 2 activated. Since manga pages usually aren't colored and anime interpretations aren't firsthand and trustworthy, technically, each Chidori and every lightning related technique that Sasuke did with the seal activated was purple, or should be by logic. I'm really interested about the source too Omni. This isn't any different than Naruto in Kyubi cloak doing Rasengan, it doesn't become anything different. Sounds like vermilion rasengan case to me, fanmade name or from a videogame--Elveonora (talk) 14:10, March 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * To answer all the questions because it requires someone who has been around forever:
 * The exact origins of Flapping Chidori is unknown, but what is known it existed way way back when this place was a pit stain on the internet and Wikipedia was the primary source of Naruto information. Where it came from, I have no idea, but our previous translator ShounenSuki did use it so I can only assume it's legit somewhere. That being said, Flapping Chidori did come before any official name any game provided for it, so /shrug.
 * Now that being said, the "black" lightining was based purely on the imagery it had when first used. Compared to every Chidori previously and after, which was just white lines around the hand, Flapping Chidori had the noticeable black lightning, so that was a thing.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 14:19, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

Black in anime, purple on chapter/volume cover ;D I remember people listing Sasuke as a user of "black lightning" due to this ._. talk about logic, and lol, since we have no source, there's a chance it's false altogether. And damn, you must be pretty old Ultimate--Elveonora (talk) 14:29, March 11, 2013 (UTC)


 * Been around since 2007. If you count the Wikipedia days, a year or so longer.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 15:22, March 11, 2013 (UTC)

Googling 羽撃く千鳥 doesn't seem to bring up any results from databooks, only videogames--Elveonora (talk) 14:03, March 14, 2013 (UTC)
 * In case you haven't found it yet, Habataku Chidori originated from Sasuke's profile in the 2nd Databook, a side box in which it speaks of this "blade" he was given for the purpose of protecting those close to him, being used to sever his bonds with them instead; the name is presented as the title... Also, Sasuke has never used this particular Chidori since his fight with Naruto at the Valley of the End. The colored depictions of Sasuke's Chidori in the Lv2 state were just regular ol' Chidori. SaiST Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 11:32, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * We should add the name "Habataku Chidori" to the article. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 12:04, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * It's already been mentioned under the Ten no Juuin's influence, which I believe is sufficient. SaiST Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 12:13, June 29, 2013 (UTC)
 * Saw it now. An article wouldn't be bad either, but i believe it is enough. Dan.Faulkner (talk) 12:38, June 29, 2013 (UTC)

Six Paths
So, any suggestions on how to rephrase the title to reflect it's new use? "Influence of Senjutsu", perhaps? —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 09:40, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't say senjutsu. Madara said that senjutsu and the Rinnegan existed both in him when comparing himself to Naruto, so that means that whatever Sasuke has, it's not senjutsu. I'd just call it "Six Paths influence" or something like that for now. A good functional difference would be good as well. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:32, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually Sasuke has Senjutsu, hence the topic on his talkpage. He wouldn't be able to harm Madara otherwise--Elveonora (talk) 18:47, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Actually, please don't go to other talk pages and state your point of view as fact when the main discussion isn't even close to being resolved. • Seelentau 愛議 18:50, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * ^ What Seel said. Hard. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:53, April 22, 2014 (UTC)

Erm, I assumed that Sasuke's statement of also having "Rikudō's power" referred to his Senjutsu. The fact that he has only ever used this variant of Chidori once before while using a form of Senjutsu in Orochimaru's Juuinka may also suggest that to be the case... But, whatever, I'll let you guys box it out on Sasuke's Talk Page. :P —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 20:48, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Glad you agree with me. Omni's explanation of Sasuke attacking and being capable to harm Madara because of plot doesn't work because the plot itself has established only Senjutsu and Taijutsu work--Elveonora (talk) 20:52, April 22, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sasuke thinks to himself that using Hagoromo's chakra makes their attacks work against Madara, and tells Naruto to do the same. Madara made the point of saying that each of them had one power, and Sasuke's was the Rinnegan, not senjutsu. It doesn't get clearer than that. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:56, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

So you suppose the Sage made an effort to split his chakra into senjutsu and non-senjutsu different for each boy or something.--Elveonora (talk) 19:07, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Do you see Naruto with a Rinnegan? Going by the "Rinnegan happen when Hagoromo's chakra, as in Indra and Asura's chakra exist together" we learned, if he had pure Hagoromo chakra, he'd have Rinnegan. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:44, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Flapping Chidori
The Chidori Sasuke used in chapter 674 looks like the Flapping Chidori from the Valley of The End. It's speculation to say that they're the same but I'm curious as to what colored manga would depict the Flapping Chidori from Volume 26. I only ask because I doubt it's purple like the colored pages that we have now because that unique Chidori art has only been used in two chapters. Since the digital version of the manga is out for it, I think it be wise if someone got it.--Narutofox94 (talk) 13:41, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Can you rephrase that? I don't get what exactly you want--Elveonora (talk) 14:29, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm basically asking can someone confirm what the manga colors are for what this wiki calls "Cursed Seal of Heaven's Influence" Chidori from chapter 232, volume 26. In the manga, the artwork for that Chidroi and the Chidori used in chapter 674 are similar if not the same.
 * From what has been released, the picture this wiki uses to depict the Cursed Seal of Heaven's influence on Chidori may not even be from the Cursed Seal.--Narutofox94 (talk) 14:52, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * here and here it's purple. After Sasuke lost Curse Mark, it's white like Kakashi's--Elveonora (talk) 15:00, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * I knew you would bring those up, but even in the chapters that depict them with those colors, they were not once drawn like the Chidori from Chapter 232 and 674. To give a better understanding Chidori is normally drawn with just a outline of it's shape off the hand. Those pictures you just linked are drawn like that and thus that's what those colors are for those variants. The Chidori from chapter 232 and 674 are drawn like |like this
 * I apologize for not clearly explaining myself earlier.--Narutofox94 (talk) 15:18, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Looking at the manga pictures (not the volume covers) what he used in 674 is the same as what he used in 232. And also looks like Darui's black lightning. Can someone get the color chapters for 232 so we can double check? For all we know, Kishi might've retconned the color. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 15:39, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

@Naruto, I see. In most instances, Chidori is just energy around the whole hand. But in some cases, it was drawn as streaks of lightning coming from the palm. Well, dunno why. Been called just Chidori in all instances tho--Elveonora (talk) 15:44, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

@MangekyoSasuke It's speculative to say it's Black Lighting, if anything the reason Sasuke used "that" Chidori could be Indra's Chakra reincarnation thing still has a bit of Asura's Chakra in it. Indra's chakra could have used what little it had of that chakra to overpower Naruto's Rasengan with Kurama's influence because it didn't want to lose to Asura's Reincarnation again. Though that's a theory, not fact.

@Elveonora True it's always been called Chidori, maybe Sasuke has some respect for Chidori and not give it 10 or so variant name changes. The difference in it's appearance though is important because from what Sasuke said in Chapter 674, that Chidori used the Six Path's chakra. Basically I think the article needs to add a Six Path's Influence section and change the picture of Cursed Seal of Heaven's Influence to the purple colored one.--Narutofox94 (talk) 15:57, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Didn't sasuke say that he added sage chakra into that chidori in the newest chapter? Munchvtec (talk) 15:59, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

@Narufox, Sasuke has the same chakra color as Indra. Six Path's chakra is Senjutsu chakra, it's no different from Flapping Chidori which was Curse Mark Senjutsu chakra. Why do you assume the Chidori in chapter 674 is different color than purple?--Elveonora (talk) 16:07, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

@Narutofox, I'm aware its speculative, thats why I'm asking for color chapters for confirmation. If you haven't heard, Digital full color chapters have been released in Japan. Look in the forums. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 16:10, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

@Elevonora Because like one user said on this site "chakra is screwy". I want to have confirmation of what that Chidori in chapter 232 looks like. We can confirm it thanks to the digital version that has the whole thing colored being out. Also Orochimaru's Senjutsu Chakra is different from whatever the hell the Six Path's chakra is. Therefore it could very well have a different color, plus the unique drawing style the used in chapter 674 and 232 makes me curious.

@MangekyoSasuke I agree with you, we need confirmation for chapter 232. I also did notice digital colored volumes and that's why I asked if someone could buy it. That way we can see if the anime didn't mess it up like they did so many other things and possibly help us imagine what this new Chidori looks like in color. Also I would like to add that the unique drawing style was used for Chidori Sharp Spear towards the end of chapter 674.--Narutofox94 (talk) 16:21, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

What Sasuke said is that attacks containing the Sage's chakra (Hagoromo's chakra) work on Madara. What people seem to be confusing about senjutsu is what it actually does. Senjutsu is the only thing that works against TSB and derived weapons. Even when Naruto hit Obito with a senjutsu attack, he healed right away. Guy obviously doesn't have senjutsu, yet he did a number on Madara. Senjutsu isn't the only thing capable of injuring Shinju's jinchuriki. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:02, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Except the very canon states that the only things that work against the Shinju's jinchuuriki (not just the balls) are Senjutsu and Taijutsu.--Elveonora (talk) 19:05, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Double-post: chapter 667 to be exact--Elveonora (talk) 19:16, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

Cursed Seal = Senjutsu. Cursed Seal enhanced chidori is the same as Senjutsu Chidori.--Salamancc (talk) 19:23, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes. Thanks for letting us know :P The current argument is if the Chidori done in latest chapter with appearance identical to Curse Mark Chidori is Senjutsu--Elveonora (talk) 19:28, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Salmamancc I have to disagree because if so why wasn't Chidori always depicted like it was in chapter 232 and 674 when using his Cursed Seal. We already know the Cursed Seal influences his Chidori and makes it purple, and in the manga is drawn just as a normal looking Chidori. The Chidori I've been mentioning has been drawn differently the times it has shown up and was even colored uniquely in the anime.

I want to see how Kishi colored it to see if the anime didn't mess it up or what not. Though this brings up another point, what we thought was the Cursed Seal influencing Chidori in chapter 232 may not have been that. If it was why wasn't it continually depicted like that. Now we have Sasuke putting the Six Path's chakra into his Chidori and guess what we got, the anime colored black and white Chidori.--Narutofox94 (talk) 19:39, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * So I get it now that you suspect that "flapping" Chidori wasn't just that, Senjutsu Chidori because Senjutsu Chidori was drawn small like ordinary Chidori in every other instance that Sasuke used it while in Curse Mark form and to prove as such, you believe the flapping Chidori not to be purple but another color?--Elveonora (talk) 19:49, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * YES XD that's what I believe at least, if so then that could possibly mean that the Cursed Seal didn't influence it. Even if it's the same color as a regular Curse Seal Chidori it still brings up my previous point on why it wasn't depicted like that in future uses when using his Curse Seal. Now that the "Flapping" Chidori art style is being used now and Sasuke doesn't have his Curse Seal could possibly mean, and I repeat, that the Cursed Seal of Heaven may not have influenced the "Flapping" Chidori--Narutofox94 (talk) 20:00, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Even tho the differing appearance is indeed curious, I think it can be explained by something as simple as Sasuke having put much more chakra into the Chidori in those two instances than during ordinary uses. Kinda akin to "last resort/most concentrated chidori"--Elveonora (talk) 20:07, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * That could be true, but it wouldn't be a last resort anymore since he is using it freely. Though didn't making his Chidori as strong and concentrated as he could cause his skin to peel off. The "Flapping" Chidori cause his arm to spasm, cause intense pain, and made the veins in his arm pop out in Part 1. The article suggests that "Flapping" Chidori is influenced just by the Cursed Seal which might not be true according to chapter 674. We know that the Cursed Seal influences Sasuke's and changed it to a purple color, so wouldn't that mean the color would be in "Flapping" Chidori. That's why I want to see the chapter 233, I think I brought it up as 232 earlier my bad, in color. --Narutofox94 (talk) 20:27, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * 232 is right. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 20:32, April 23, 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks I had the page leading to chapter 233 open so that's why I added it, my bad but I won't add the talk page with trivial things. I want to see chapter 232 in color to see if "Flapping" Chidori to see if the tell tale signs of the Curse Seal influencing it is there.--Narutofox94 (talk) 20:44, April 23, 2014 (UTC)

"Rinnegan Influence" for Chidori Sharp Spear?
Considering that this wikia added a "Rinnegan Influence" section for this page, wouldn't it be reasonable to do the same for the Chidori Sharp Spear page? Cause I'm pretty sure a normal (or in this case, ninjutsu-based) Chidori Sharp Spear couldn't bisect through Madara like that toward the end of Chapter 674. WindStar7125 (talk) 22:44, April 28, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125
 * Speaking of that section, is it really accurate to label it as "Rinnegan Influence"? Sasuke didn't just get the Rinnegan, he got some of Hagoromo's powers. There's nothing to suggest the Rinnegan would make lighting black.--Soul reaper (talk) 07:12, April 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Some people around are progressively getting more and more mentally disabled. There's like 0 evidence the Rinnegan has anything with the power and visual of Sasuke's Chidori. Not to mention the very canon a few chapters back stated that only Senjutsu chakra and physical damage work against the TTs' jinchuuriki, meaning it's a Senjutsu Chidori--Elveonora (talk) 11:24, April 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * That's what I was thinking. In chapter 232 the "Flapping Chidori" appeared identical to the Chidori used in the last chapter. It seems to me that the two sections should be merged into a "Senjutsu Influence".--Soul reaper (talk) 14:01, April 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Elveonora, stop insulting people you disagree with. You were warned about it last time. And Sasuke explicitly was said NOT to get Senjutsu by Madara himself: he only got the Rinnegan. Naruto got the Senjutsu from Hagoromo, while Sasuke got the Rinnegan, plain and simple. --SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 18:18, April 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not to mention the 'black Chidori' wasn't even standard for Sasuke in Cursed Seal Level 2. Hell when he used it against Deidara, Itachi, and Orochimaru, his Chidori was white not black. Its possible that its not only the Rinnegan, but Indira's chakra turning it black.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 18:28, April 29, 2014 (UTC)

I don't think such a section is necessary for Chidori Sharp Spear. We barely catch a glimpse of the technique, and if the effects are listed in the main technique article, it stands to reason that they apply to the derived techniques. At most, a sentence mentioning what it could do with the enhancement is enough. Elveonora, stop insulting people on your own, for your own sake. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:59, April 29, 2014 (UTC)

Why do we have to assume that the black Chidori is a result of senjutsu or Rinnegan influence? Sasuke said attacks using Hagoromo's chakra can harm Madara and than said he has Six Paths power too. Can we not just go the route of least speculation and say that the black Chidori uses Hagoromo's chakra until it is further explained?--BeyondRed (talk) 21:20, April 29, 2014 (UTC)
 * Isn't Hagoromo's chakra Senjutsu tho? Naruto woke up with new Sage Mode after having gotten Hagoromo's chakra.

@SSM, @Omni, just because Madara said Sasuke got the Rinnegan doesn't mean he didn't get anything besides that. What kind of logic is that? Madara mentioned what he could see with his own eye, he doesn't know the details of their powers. He identified the most prominent feature of each - a new eye in Sasuke and a cloak on Naruto. What you basically do is trying to dodge the canon with excuses just because of personal bias. The fact is, that the canon said: "only senjutsu or physical attacks work on the tts' jinchuuriki" I'm not making that shi* up, go back and see for yourself--Elveonora (talk) 21:36, April 29, 2014 (UTC)

OK Omni. I'll add that sentence in if it already hasn't been. And regarding this Hagoromo's chakra is senjutsu thing... I'll reiterate my stance -- let's not make assumptions. What we have seen in the manga is that Senjutsu, Taijutsu, Hagoromo's chakra (before he sealed the Ten-Tails within himself), and his brother's can damage the Shinju. Basically, almost anything but ninjutsu. Once again, when we saw Sasuke's Rinnegan, a lot of us assumed that Kaguya and the Shinju had the Rinnegan, but it wasn't explicitly stated so. What we know is that Sasuke infused Hagoromo's chakra with his Chidori to damage Madara. Unless it is explicitly stated that Sasuke used senjutsu, we should keep Hagoromo's chakra and senjutsu chakra separate. Just because it may seem that Sasuke has senjutsu chakra due to having Hagoromo's, doesn't mean he does. Just because it may seem that Kaguya and the Shinju have the Rinnegan due to their eyes looking exactly like Sasuke's newly acquired one, doesn't mean they have the eye itself (like I said earlier, unless explicitly stated or shown), so let's just keep Hagoromo's chakra separate from senjutsu for now. Remember, his brother was also able to damage the Ten-Tails, but there was no mention of him being a Sage or possessing Senjutsu chakra. There are other ways to damage the Ten-Tails and its jinchuriki, and there may be more that we do not know of, and have yet to find out. Let's just go with what the manga displays and not make assumptions. They're what cause these debates and these "uproars." Besides, I don't think anyone is going to convince the sysops on this wiki that Sasuke has senjutsu chakra now. WindStar7125 (talk) 23:01, April 29, 2014 (UTC) WindStar7125
 * Hurting the shinju isn't the same as hurting its jinchuriki. Ninjutsu works on it. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 03:00, April 30, 2014 (UTC)

I just don't understand what is there even left to be argued about, since the very canon said, quoting: "only senjutsu and physical attacks work on the Ten-Tails' jinchuuriki" basically dodging Sasuke having Senjutsu is ignoring the canon--Elveonora (talk) 09:21, April 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * The problem with your entire argument is that you're expanding on what senjutsu can do. What senjutsu can do is not be deleted by TSB. If ninjutsu was completely and utterly useless against them, having no effect at all, Tobirama and Minato would not have been able to use their combo Flying Thunder God to switch Obito and Minato's positions so Naruto and Sasuke could hit them. Madara was very clear in saying that each of them got one part of Hagoromo's power, and that Naruto was the one who got the senjutsu. Saying that Sasuke has senjutsu ignores that. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:17, April 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Madara doesn't know any Hagoromo chitchat took place, he is even clueless about Sasuke being an Indra incarnate too. Anyway, it's not my job to lecture you, I'm going to just sit and wait for the manga to tell you the obvious--Elveonora (talk) 17:29, April 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Sasuke himself said that attacks that have Hagoromo's chakra work. He didn't say senjutsu, he didn't say natural energy, he said Hagoromo's chakra. For what you're saying to work, either there is another type of senjutsu chakra that somehow isn't recognised as a type of senjutsu chakra, having senjutsu chakra and using senjutsu are no longer the same thing, or all the available translations managed to get a crucial part of the chapter wrong the exact same way. Until either of those can be proved, you're selectively ignoring part of the manga as you see fit, because Sasuke having senjutsu directly contradicts what we were told just moments ago in the storyline. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:09, April 30, 2014 (UTC)
 * Not really, Madara doesn't know everything they've got. He didn't mention that Naruto was taught a technique by Hagoromo, so by your logic, Naruto wasn't taught anything because omniscient Madara didn't say so.--Elveonora (talk) 21:18, April 30, 2014 (UTC)

For the record: Madara claimed that "Rikudou('s?) Senjutsu" blossomed within Naruto, and Sasuke said that he also possessed Rikudou's "power", correct? If Sasuke were to be using a form of Senjutsu, it doesn't necessarily mean he's using the same as what Naruto inherited: "Rikudou('s?) Senjutsu"... I surmise that is what leads to the black, malleable chakra 'n such, which Sasuke clearly lacks. —「SaiST」Mangekyō Sharingan Sasuke (Eternal).svg 23:30, April 30, 2014 (UTC)

@Omni, here's why your argument doesn't work. When Sasuke first saw the rinbo, he attempted to attack it with he sword. Didn't work. But he noticed that Naruto's Senjutsu Chakra did cause harm to it. When he formulates his plan to attack, he states that he has the sage's chakra. If he wasn't referring to senjutsu in this instance, how could he possibly know that his attack would work? His next attack is his first time attacking Madara. There was no previous attack that confirmed that something that's only the "Sage's Chakra" would work against Madara's shadow. Sasuke's throwing of the sword proved that he knew nothing of the technique beforehand, therefore the only knowledge Sasuke had of an attack working is Naruto's usage of Senjutsu chakra. So the only thing Sasuke could be referring to when he says "Sage's Chakra" is senjutsu chakra. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 01:30, May 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * The fact remains that we don't know what changed it to black in this instance. While many of us (myself included) believe that it is caused by Senjutsu Chakra or something related, it has yet to be confirmed. The page should reflect this. As it stands now the page is confidently stating that the black Chidori is a result of the Rinnegan influence, an assumption with no evidence at this point in time. The least we should do is rename the section. In my opinion we should merge it with the Curse Mark section, rename it to black Chidori, and have one paragraph dedicated to its use in Part I and another paragraph dedicated to its more recent appearance. If others feel differently that's fine, but we shouldn't be labelling it as a result of Sasuke's Rinnegan if we don't know it to be true.--Soul reaper (talk) 04:50, May 1, 2014 (UTC)

@SaisT, the orbs are not just Senjutsu chakra but also Tailed Beasts' chakras, which Sasuke lacks. @Omni, MagnekyouSasuke has a great point, even more evidence. Also I went back to re-read previous chapters to find but 1 instance of ordinary chakra hurting Obito, found none. In fact, Amaterasu did nothing--Elveonora (talk) 11:12, May 1, 2014 (UTC)


 * So immediately prior to activating the Chidori, Sasuke's line is "And I have Six paths power too... Chidori!" (Viz translation). With that in mind would anyone be against renaming the section "Six paths influence"?--Soul reaper (talk) 13:17, May 1, 2014 (UTC)


 * Six Paths Influence is far more neutral and is not wrong. Because I refuse to go over what I am sure is a grand conversion full of knowledge and understanding, I say go with that.--TheUltimate3 Allied Shinobi Forces Symbol.svg (talk) 13:26, May 1, 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks. Just made the change.--Soul reaper (talk) 13:30, May 1, 2014 (UTC)

Elveonora, if you're talking about Six Paths Sage Technique, that is still highly speculative to call a technique. What I'm referring about Madara saying what Naruto and Sasuke got is the nature of their power-up, not specifics. Naruto got better senjutsu, and is dishing those Rasengan variants. MangekyoSasuke what did we see Sasuke getting as a Rikudo power-up? Rinnegan. Sasuke throwing a sword is not him using a Rikudo based technique. Except after, Sasuke uses his Rinnegan and causes his sword to appear stabbing Madara. Is anyone really saying that is senjutsu when we already know that teleportation-like effects are Sasuke's yet to be properly explained Rinnegan ability? Elveonora, I see you're deliberately ignoring the fact that regular ninjutsu, Mutually Instantaneous Revolving Technique, was able to affect Obito. You're claim that he is completely immune to the effects of ninjutsu is wrong on account of that. Regarding ninjutsu actually injuring him, please go to chapter 642 again. When we see Obito emerging from the Amaterasu flames, there's the smoking effect that indicates healing, in his chest, where Naruto and Sasuke hit him with the Rasenshuriken and Kagutsuchi combo. If he's healing, it means he got hurt. We've seen the same effect with Madara as well, even before he became a jinchuriki. I'll repeat my previous sentences: For what you're saying to work, either there is another type of senjutsu chakra that somehow isn't recognised as a type of senjutsu chakra, having senjutsu chakra and using senjutsu are no longer the same thing, or all the available translations managed to get a crucial part of the chapter wrong the exact same way. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:59, May 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * Um, what? You're missing the entire point of my argument. Him teleporting Madara into his sword has nothing to do with attacking his shadow. This and that are two different things. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 19:21, May 1, 2014 (UTC)
 * What MangekyouSasuke was trying to say Omni is that Sasuke figured out that physical attacks do not work on Limbo but Naruto's Senjutsu could hurt the shadow Madara and then proclaimed that he has Rikudou's power too and managed to stab the shadow Madara with his black Chidori. If that isn't obvious, then I dunno--Elveonora (talk) 12:41, May 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * "Rikūdo's power" =/= senjutsu. It was already established that techniques that use Hagoromo's chakra can hurt the shadow. Carry on. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 18:37, May 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * By whom?--Elveonora (talk) 20:02, May 2, 2014 (UTC)
 * By Sasuke, in 674. You're even missing the point of what they're doing. Senjutsu is effective against TSB. I see neither of you disproved the fact we've seen ninjutsu affecting a Shinju host twice, the FTG and the Sasuke and Naruto combo, per my previous comment. The shadow they're attacking isn't a Shinju derived ability, it's a Rinnegan ability, so using Hagoromo's chakra (which is what manifests the Rinnegan in the first place, per Hagoromo's own words) against is only logical to work. It's probably also why he didn't want to attack Obito earlier with it, since he had Madara's other Rinnegan, he didn't want to risk Obito noticing the technique and beginning to make a strategy against it. Even if Naruto used senjutsu against it, the reason it worked is because it was Hagoromo's power, not because it was senjutsu. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:13, May 3, 2014 (UTC)

Are you even serious? Talk about denial. Sasuke said that an attack using chakra from the sage of the six paths worked and then he ordered Naruto to prepare Senjutsu chakra. Hagoromo's chakra = Senjutsu chakra, not sure why don't you get this--Elveonora (talk) 21:27, May 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * You're the one who's not even trying to refute my other points. We were explicitly told there was a separation of Hagoromo's powers. You know why Sasuke told Naruto to use senjutsu? Because that's the power up Hagoromo gave Naruto. That's the power he has that stems from Hagoromo. And Sasuke's is the Rinnegan. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:25, May 3, 2014 (UTC)
 * @Elve: Your own statement disproves your argument. If Sasuke has senjutsu chakra, then why would he bother telling Naruto to prepare Senjutsu chakra? He could just make it himself. He needed Naruto to do it because he doesn't have it. Once again Sage's chakra/power =/= Senjutsu except in your head. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Yamagakure Symbol.svg 05:23, May 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * You can't be serious. Sasuke needs Naruto's chakra? He didn't perform a collaboration ninjutsu. He used his own chidori, with no chakra from naruto. And it worked on Madara's shadow, which was specifically said by Sasuke to be vulnerable only to Senjutsu chakra. @Omni, we don't know if Naruto and Sasuke's powers they've shown so far are a result of the so6p or the methods which they were revived (tailed beast chakra and senju healing by kabuto). For all we know, its just the marks on their hands. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 07:11, May 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm just gonna sit back and swallow this with lots of popcorn.--Elveonora (talk) 11:35, May 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * Other than Shukaku and Gyūki, Naruto has had the chakra of the other tailed beasts for many chapters now, but only now he has started to use them in senjutsu, which Madara explicitly recognized as Hagoromo's. And any Senju involvement in Sasuke's healing regarding Asura's chakra should be meaningless, since Asura's chakra has long since moved on to Naruto. Their powerups are due to Hagoromo's influence, no question about it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:45, May 4, 2014 (UTC)

He hasn't had ALL of the tailed beasts, though, which equates to the ten-tails chakra, which equates to Hagoromo's sage mode. And Asura reincarnating into Naruto doesn't make Hashi any less Asura's reincarnation. Naruto and Hashi share the same soul. And I suppose you'll say how can Sasuke and Madara be alive at the same time if they share souls, but I don't think reincarnation necessarily follows your preconceived notions of space and time. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 17:27, May 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * And none of his new Rasengan variants uses all of the tailed beasts' chakra, so far, they've only been used individually. Hashirama maybe Asura's reincarnation as well, but Asura's chakra has moved on to Naruto. Hashirama no longer possesses it. If Hashirama and Naruto had the same soul, it would be impossible for Hashirama to be brought back with Impure World Reincarnation. It's Asura's chakra that transmigrates with each reincarnation, not Asura's very own soul. Chakra and soul are obviously very closely related, but they're not the same. Same goes for Madara and Sasuke. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:07, May 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * What do rasengan variants have to do with anything? And you don't know that. Thats an opinion you have on the nature of chakra and the soul, which has NOT been proven. My opinion of it is as equally valid as yours. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 18:32, May 4, 2014 (UTC)

Edit: Oh, and another thing. Someone saying something is so doesn't mean the exclusion of it being something else. Hagoromo said that both brothers reincarnated through time, their chakra moving from place to place. He did not say ONLY their chakra, he just said their chakra. And chakra can be in multiple places (or people) at once. Otherwise shadow clones and Naruto's sharing of chakra or the splitting of Kurama wouldn't be possible. And the powers that we were told Naruto and Sasuke obtained were told from Madara's perspective. He has no idea where they're from, and no idea whether or not they obtained anything else. He only knows what he sees. So you can't use it to prove that Sasuke doesn't have senjutsu. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 18:43, May 4, 2014 (UTC)

Rasengan variants are what Naruto started doing after he got the power-up from Hagoromo. Without that power-up, it is highly improbable that he would have been able to perform those variants. The fact that Edo Hashirama and Naruto both exist at the same time is proof that their souls aren't the same. There's no arguing against that. Naruto has Asura's chakra at the moment, and nothing indicates that Hashirama still possesses it. We also don't know that each reincarnation retains Asura's chakra if they're Edoed after another reincarnation is born, and considering that is a much more complex scenario than the chakra simply moving on, it is much more speculative until proven in any way. Reincarnation as what Hagoromo said is much different from any sort of chakra sharing, or anyone using a shadow clone, all of which are deliberate actions which happen as intended by the performer of jutsu/sharer. Reincarnation as far as we know just happens. Madara may not have the perspective of what happened when they were dying, but as a character in the story, he's the author's mouthpiece, so until the story in any way proves him wrong, what he says go. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:43, May 4, 2014 (UTC)