User talk:Omnibender/Elemental recomposition table

Orochimaru's Experiments and Otogakure
Orochimaru conducted many experiments in search for copying kekkei genkai. Yamato and Danzō were able to use Wood Release, and it may be possible other test subjects were able to use elemental techniques. Earlier in the plot, the Oto-nin were able to use techniques based on sound (Zaku's jutsu was based on vacuum and air pressure also) through the use of special instruments and implants in Zaku's case. Could these have been Orochimaru's efforts to find a Sound Release?
 * An anime-only character, Kigiri, was also able to use smoke in battle, such as the Smoke Clone. Kigiri was able to use a fire-based technique, confirming the connection of smoke to fire. Kihō was also able to use smoke-based techniques, such as the Smoke Dragon through special devices. GoDai (talk)
 * What Orochimaru did was to transplant a kekkei genkai to other individuals, something which seems much simpler than creating a kekkei genkai. Even though it has logic, I wouldn't give much credit to the smoke now, because as an anime-only plot, it may have nothing to do at all with Kishimoto, we don't know how involved he is with anime-only plots. The Six-Tails Arc, for example. Utakata is a canon character, but the arc about him isn't. His bubble techniques were referred to in a canon source, but most of them appeared only in the anime. We don't know if they should be accountable as valid arguments. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 13:22, March 5, 2010 (UTC)

Thinking the Other Way
Wood Release keeps coming up on my mind, as wood release generates living wood. (However, the effects varied between users: Yamato seems to generate just wood, Danzō seems to generate trees from his arm, and Hashirama seems to generate trees and control them entirely, probably because it was his natural kekkei genkai and he had absolute control over it.) Unlike the other advanced natures, wood release seems to deal with an extremely complicated structures: living cells. The fact that earth and water natures are enough to form living plant cells seem too much out of range, although with Earth Release already being able to control mud eliminates mud as a combination.
 * To me, it seems Kishimoto is trying to fit in stereotypical classical elements into this system, like Fire, Wind/Air, Earth, Water, Lightning/Electricity, Wood/Plants, Ice/Cold, Metal, Poison/Toxins, Sound/Sonics, Light, and Darkness. Most of these have already been shown on manga, although Metal, Poison, and Sound were not Natures. These three could be Natures, but with effects different from the previously shown jutsu related to these classical elements.

--GoDai (talk) 01:17, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * So maybe
 * After (more like If) Fire + Lighning = Blaze (symbolizing Sun, Light, Heat, Plasma, and Radiation in my opinion) becomes true
 * Fire + Wind = Poison Gas (or Smoke/Ash, or maybe related to Shizune's poison gas technique, although not kekkei genkai)
 * Wind + Lighning = Thunder (Sonic Shockwaves? Not the same as Oto-nin's hearing-based jutsu)
 * Earth + Lighning = Metal, or some type of metal, maybe steel/iron (or Magnetism, either way you control metal)
 * This way, all stereotypical classical elements seem to fit in.
 * This is just my opinion, the best I could come up with. I think stronger versions, triple+ combinations, and stronger versions of combinations may be a little to complicated, and I think it would be awkward for all that to be suddenly introduced into the plot, since nothing like that was mentioned before. I also ignored all anime/movie-only natures. I myself stick to the 10-possible-combinations-only theory for now.
 * But who knows. Kishimoto can play around with the plot any wasy he wants since he's the author. --GoDai (talk) 07:40, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

I've given my thoughts on why I don't think that Fire + Lightning = Blaze a couple sections above. I don't think that poison would reuslt from Fire and Wind, I can see it being something derived from Smoke, but not being the main product of the blend. Thunder is just the sound produced by lightning, and it would be difficult to use because "kaminari" refers to both lightning and thunder, it's the whole phenomenon. I considered Metal as a possibility for Earth and Lightning, but since I hold anime-only higher than films, that's my number two option for that blend, the first one is Crystal. Metal was in one of the movies. I just put stronger versions going on the idea that Blaze is just a uber strong version of Fire, applying that idea to other elements. I'm with you on triple combinations, until they hint at it, I won't speculate on it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:31, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * But would it be okay for me to consider Amaterasu as the stronger fire, and Blaze Release allows you to control the flames, not just emit them (usually from your mouth) to ignite other things, like Fire Release?
 * So I think Fire only breathes flames, while Blaze controls them.--GoDai (talk) 18:52, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * And I mentioned Earth + Water = Wood seems a little too far out of range, but I think Masashi Kishimoto had to put it somewhere, and that was the best place for it. So I think he will try to "shove in" other stereotypical elements into this system. The only ones left were Poison, Sound, and Metal (the only ones that seemed the most obvious, yet were not in this system)., so I tried squishing them in.
 * I think Smoke may have an extra effect, like Boil Release, which was definitely more than boiling water and hot steam.
 * I don't think the Crystal would be a combination, because Guren fell into many situations where she could have used Lightning (or maybe Earth, but Crystal was probably a better choice than Earth) jutsu to gain an advantage, but she did not. I think the ability itself is non-canon.
 * Haku was shown using a water technique.
 * Yamato was shown using Water and Earth.
 * It was stated Lava is Fire + Earth (I think)
 * Darui was shown using Water and Lightning separately.
 * Mei Terumī herself said she had Earth, Fire, and Water natures, and she had 2 kekkei genkai: Lava and Boil. (She did not possess the ability to combine Earth and Water)
 * Guren did not use any of the component natures of Crystal, leading me to believe it was rather a pseudo-element. She had a high level of skill with it, but was yet unable to generate Crystal from raw chakra. She crystallized her surroundings, including moisture. I believe it was a kekkei genkai that allowed you to control a substance, but not a true Nature (no matter how convincing), like Kimimaro's ability. (They also had similar techniques: Dance of the Clematis: Flower, and Crystal Release: Giant Crystal Dart.) The name itself may have been mistaken, as Guren did not know of the origins of her unique ability, like Haku. Haku did not name his technique "Ice Release" because he did not know the kekkei genkai's name.--GoDai (talk) 18:52, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * The Dark, Steel, and Swift natures have no proof as natures, and I think Earth + Lightning would let you control some type of metal, not make your own body as hard as metal, and therefore it would rather resemble Iron Sand. None of the effects of the movie natures resembled Nature Transformation at all. --GoDai (talk) 18:52, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * Please don't make so many indents, they stretch things too much. Also, you don't need to leave spaces in piped links, do, not  . I think that Blaze Release would account for producing flames to some extent, because Sasuke complimented Gaara on being able to guard against Amaterasu. Don't know about simply controlling it. Maybe controlling Amaterasu, which is particularly powerful fire. I agree that sometimes Guren could have used Lightning to gain an advantage, but Crystal still is a kekkei genkai, because either she or Kakashi said that the Sharingan couldn't copy it, and Orochimaru said that her techniques were a elemental recomposition. Earth and Lightning were the only viable blend. That or an Earth Release with Yin-Yang twist we don't know about. I agree that the natures are rather irksome, but since natures are usually denoted by radical-ton, they're natures for now. Also, Iron Sand is nothing more than magnetism, the Third Kazekage just had magnetic chakra, which he used to manipulate the iron sand. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:10, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * The Sharingan can't copy k.g., that's true. But advanced elements are only some of the k.g. Shikotsumyaku is a k.g., but not an element-combining one.
 * Haku had no idea the k.g. he had was Ice Release, but Guren's case might be the other way around, while it is a k.g., it might not be an advanced nature, but just very convincing enough to make Orochimaru believe it is an advanced element. Although being called *something*-ton makes it count as an advanced nature, it was anime-only and that doesn't seem enough proof for it being a canon nature. And most of the techniques would have been named by Guren herself or Orochimaru, meaning Orochimaru might have named it Shōton himself. For example, Orochimaru randomly travels all over the world, and finds a kid that can create and manipulate metal or something. He could easily assume it is an advanced nature on the spot, when it might not be an advanced nature.--GoDai (talk) 03:19, March 7, 2010 (UTC)

Haha sorry about the indents. I see what you're saying. But is there anything confirmed about Yin and Yang? Can you tell me the chapters where I can find info on this?--GoDai (talk) 19:29, March 6, 2010 (UTC)
 * How about "Conduction Release"?
 * Actually, we don't know if Haku knew the name of his kekkei genkai. At the very least, he had to know that it involved blending wind and water natured chakra. Seeing that Kirigakure went through a period in which people with kekkei genkai fought and were feared, I'd say that at the very least someone knew its name, I also find it unlikely that Zabuza didn't know its name. Sharingan can't copy any kekkei genkai, element combining or not. Very little is known on Yin and Yang. All that is known is that it is a form of nature transformation responsible for some non-elemental techniques, including but not limited to the Nara clan's shadow techniques, the Akimichi clan's expansion techniques, medical ninjutsu and genjutsu. ShounenSuki's translation is here. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 13:20, March 7, 2010 (UTC)
 * What if they meant that the Sharingan cannot copy other k.g., obviously including the Advanced Natures, but the Mangekyō Sharingan may have an Advanced Nature itself, as each Mangekyō varies from person to person, the abilties of a Mangekyō may be connected to that person's unique chakra. Or if it strictly cannot combine elements in any way at all, can you tell me where it said that? Thanks. --GoDai (talk) 06:55, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * The Mangekyō having an advanced nature as an exclusive technique is something I could live with, even though it's something I'd frown upon, since the beginning of the series, the Sharingan went from cool and reasonably powerful too completely over-powered. Something I'd like to see from Sasuke is him having his own MS techniques, not just Itachi's, or things built on top of Itachi's. He was able to create Kirin, it was cool, but now he just uses jutsu he got from Itachi. Way back in the Land of Waves arc, when Team 7 first learned Haku had a kekkei genkai, Kakashi explained what it was, and said that because it comes from one's genetic code, even the Sharingan can't copy it. For example, say Kakashi tried to copy Yamato's Wood Release techniques. It wouldn't work because even though Kakashi can use Water and Earth, he doesn't have the kekkei genkai to combine them in Wood. However, I believe that if, for the sake of argument, Danzō could use Wood Release the same way Yamato does, using actual techniques left and right, if he tried to copy Yamato's techniques with the Sharingan, he'd be able to, because he can copy with the Sharingan, and is able to blend Water and Earth to make Wood. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:04, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * I do agree that Sasuke is using Itachi's MS techniques most of the time now (he mostly uses Amaterasu over most other Fire techniques now). So it is possible that Blaze Release is a "MS element" available to Sasuke and possibly other Uchiha? Even though the user must be able to copy the techniques that the Sharingan copies, including K.G., what if Sharingan users (some or all) possess the gene for Blaze Release already? --GoDai (talk) 19:17, March 21, 2010 (UTC)
 * Blaze Release could be something that is acessible to MS users, much like Tsukuyomi or Kamui, but I don't think other kekkei genkai techniques can be copied unless the one who copies also has the kekkei genkai which allows to use the technique. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:42, March 21, 2010 (UTC)

Nature Transformation vs. Chakra Infusion
Gaara's sand manipulation is chakra infusion, although unique to him and Shukaku. It is similar to Sai's ink, Kimimaro's bones/calcium, and Konan's paper, etc. These are "pseudo elements," as they all control a substance, but cannot generate it out of nothing. They are all infused with chakra in order to control. Ink cannot be generated, shikotsumyaku requires some bones/calcium to accelerate and direct growth, and Dance of the Shikigami is a transformation jutsu.
 * It is to be noted both Natures and Infused substances have been used for bunshinjutsu, shunshinjutsu, etc.
 * Jiraiya could also infuse hair with chakra to sharpen it, and he could spit oil like a toad.
 * Killer Bee could generate ink from his mouth, being the jinchuriki of the Eight-tails.
 * Kidomaru could infuse spit with chakra to create sticky spider web-like "silk" and infuse sweat with chakra to create a golden metal that could block chakra. --GoDai (talk) 08:31, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

Not so sure - maybe both?
The following seem to be manipulating an element that is able to be generated and controlled through a Nature Transformation, but at the same time, it may not be so in that instance.
 * Deidara had an earth-based jutsu - his famous Exploding Clay - which utilized clay infused with his chakra, which allowed him to detonate them at will. He also had the Iwagakure Kinjutsu, which allowed him to "knead" chakra into materials (therefore energy into matter), like clay. So it seems that he generated clay, then infused it with more chakra.
 * The Two-tails had the ability to control fire. The word "control" is important, as Fire release only allows one to select a shape, then breathe the fire out of the user's mouth (except in the case of Amaterasu). Blaze Release is the nature that allows the manipulation of flames. The phrase "Fire Release" is not placed in front of any of the Two-Tails' techniques (actually hardly any of the techniques are named on the spot). Is this similar to Gaara's case, where the flames have covered Yugito's body on the outside and inside?
 * The Three-tails indirectly controlled water in the form of tidal waves through shockwaves / sonic roars.
 * Utakata's bubble ninjutsu seems to be based on Water Release, considering his affinity. However, his bubble techniques have a wide range of effects, but Water Release has also been seen to be able to control other liquids. The bubble jutsu may also be a unique skill of the Six-tails.
 * The anime seems to like lightning - it has Lightning Fangs, Sword of the Thunder God, and Limelight, which makes Lightning Release seem like a very common and easy element to use...
 * I think the anime should stop using so much lightning and making it seem special.
 * One of the movies also had a Gelel thingy where someone could use Lightning wihout the affinity.
 * I'm really confused with this one - Temari's fan jutsu was classified as Wind Release in the anime - but was it that way in the manga? It more looks like Temari's normal chakra infused with the wind the fan creates, which makes it look like a Wind Release.
 * I think in the anime this guy had a jutsu called Assimilate All Creation Technique and in his battle with Kakashi he copied the properties of a rock. I don't think this should be a Nature Transformation of earth. It is implied he could do this with may other things in nature. He also had a copy of Gaara's jutsu where he used rock powder to imitate sand. I think Earth Release has more of a mud- or moist-soil- theme, and dry-sand/rock- belongs to Shukaku...
 * --GoDai (talk) 08:31, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

On the Temari case, I think some of them were mentioned as Wind Release in databooks, but I can't vouch for that. I wouldn't consider those assimilated techniques. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:31, March 6, 2010 (UTC)


 * On this wikia, Nagare's techniques are being classified as Earth jutsu, which I think is wrong. I think the manga never showed Earth Release users generating and controlling rock. It was mud.--GoDai (talk) 18:55, March 6, 2010 (UTC)

Blaze Release
Amaterasu was stated to be Fire Release. I think Amaterasu isn't Blaze Release itself, but manipulating it is. Blaze Release isn't just a stronger Fire Release, although that's what the name implies (because I strongly believe most advanced natures have names that don't describe the actual effects very well), but Blaze Release seems to be a way to actually manipulate fire (maybe just Amaterasu), unlike Fire Release, which only ignites things by creating fire. So therefore Amaterasu is Fire Release because it only creates black flames that burn everything, but controlling Amaterasu is Blaze Release because Sasuke uses this element to manipulate Amaterasu's shape and "condense" it into shapes, such as spikes. So I think the difference is method and control, not the intensity.--GoDai (talk) 05:14, March 17, 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry for the huge explanation.

Also, this is just a theory, but if Blaze is a modified version of Fire, Fire Release may be the only one requiring a such modified element. Seeing this: From this analysis, Fire is the only nature which cannot actually manipulate its already-existing element. All four of the other natures are each capable of manipulating their element. Blaze is a nature that allows you to manipulate fire (although possibly exclusively Amaterasu), so it may be an addition to Fire that fills this gap, which would allow all natures to manipulate their element. --GoDai (talk) 01:55, March 23, 2010 (UTC)
 * Fire Release produces fire.
 * Blaze Release manipulates fire.
 * Wind Release creates and manipulates wind.
 * Lightning Release produces lightning and/or controls natural lightning (Kirin).
 * Earth Release manipulates already-existing earth and/or produces earth.
 * Water Release manipulates already existing water and/or produces water.

Until Kirin came along, we didn't know Lightning Release could manipulate actual lightning, I wouldn't say that Fire Release can't manipulate natural fire, I think that it's just more convenient to make your own fire, like Lightning Release users usually do with their lightning techniques. I find it highly unlikely that Blaze Release would exist just because Fire Release can't manipulate fire, something I don't believe. I can understand if it's just a way to expand on Amaterasu, but otherwise, I don't see it working. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:01, March 27, 2010 (UTC)

Yeah I do it is not very much of a theory until we see that Fire Release is clearly unable to manipulate existing flames, but if the "stronger versions" theory is right, we should consider the main aspect of elements, such as heat and intensity for Fire. If Blaze Release turns out to be indeed just a stronger version of Fire Release, it would only be that way for the intensity of the flames. The stronger versions should look distinct from their original elements, but at the same time amplify their key characteristics.--GoDai (talk) 04:58, March 29, 2010 (UTC)

Other possibilities
I know there were already sound-based techniques, but wouldn't Wind and Lightning provide pressure and vibration (such as in Super Vibrating Lightning Release Sword) respectively for a different kind of Sound? Sound is different from wind and lightning, yet possesses properties of the two chakra natures. I also like this theory because I don't consider either anime or movies as trustworthy canon material, and there are probably more elements to come.--GoDai (talk) 23:52, April 2, 2010 (UTC)
 * Possibly something to do with amplifying the powers of bladed weapons, as both Wind and Lightning can increase the cutting power of bladed weapons, each through different means. Combining the two natures may create chakra ideal for the creation of an extremely powerful Chakra Flow-enhanced weapon.--GoDai (talk) 00:11, April 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * How about "Shock" or "Quake"? Vibration under pressure causes these things, and the slicing effect of Wind could create the "shattering" of air to create shockwaves.--GoDai (talk) 02:19, April 3, 2010 (UTC)

Wouldn't Lightning "refine" Earth into Metal and therefore form a Metal (金; kane) nature, used for Metal Release (金遁; Kinton)? Not the same as Iron Sand or Steel Release, as not all metals are magnetic and all Steel did was increase the hardness of the user's body. This nature would rather produce and/or manipulate metal structures. --GoDai (talk) 01:03, April 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * Similar to Wood, Metal is commonly viewed as a classical element, especially in the Chinese elements, which were mentioned in the Five Elements Seal.--GoDai (talk) 01:08, April 3, 2010 (UTC)

I understand the concept of wind and lightning making sound, but I don't think that's how it would happen because all that is required to produce sound is air. The cutting qualities of wind chakra, similar to scissors already shows pressure, and lightning seems unnecessary to add vibration. Physically and symbolically, sound is too close to air/wind to me, so while I understand how it can be done, I think an altered wind is all it takes. If you see, lightning and earth is an alternative theory for Steel Release. All that is known from other sites is that Steel Release allows to harden the body, until the movie is online, we can't say that's the only thing it does. Symbolically, steel and metal are one and the same. If Steel Release was actually canon, I can perfectly picture it doing metal versions of regular Earth Release techniques, just like Yamato does with some Wood Release techniques. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:28, April 3, 2010 (UTC)

Do you think, symbolically, Masashi Kishimoto would try to fit in all stereotypical classical elements into this table, or rather simply consider the combinations first? Because in the case of "Earth + Water = Wood" or "Water + Fire = Acid," it seems that he does the former, but only changes the names when neccessary to make it make sense. For example, the natures are not named "Energy Release,""Acid Release" or "Molecule Release," they are named Storm, Boil, and Dust respectively for symbolic purposes. The names describe what the combination would seem like in the real world, while their effects seem to only make sense in the sense of chakra in the Naruto world (sorry, I'm trying to find the proper way to word that).--GoDai (talk) 03:30, April 3, 2010 (UTC)
 * So therefore I think instead of trying to figure out what and what makes what first, we should think about what has to be in there first. For example, we can list the most stereotypical elements, then figure out where they go.