Talk:Outer Path

Classification
isn't it a genjutsu?


 * Good question! I don't know. The Naraka Path is supposedly a Genjutsu user, but them agian, when was that ever made official? Also, it physically ate and healed the Asura Path. Maybe the Genjutsu is just that powerful...I guess you should put it as Genjutsu for now, until it's official.-xnaminex


 * The only way the King of Hell is going to be a genjutsu is if Kishimoto decides to completely ignore everything he's told us so far about what genjutsu are and how they work. --ShounenSuki 01:07, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me that this a summoned creature like in the reaper death seal, not a jutsu in itself. Should I modify the category jutsu, and ninjutsu to be summons? 74.236.92.133 (talk) 01:08, 30 May 2009 (UTC)


 * It's not a summon, but it wouldn't appear to be a regular jutsu either. Might be simplest to just attribute it to the Rinnegan. Or resolve the discussion below. ~SnapperTo 19:16, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Quick question, how exactly does Nagato summon Kin of Hell? Is he really using the Summoning Jutsu, or is this more like Dead Demon Consuming Seal? Normally I believe we classify "Summons" as creatures who exist elsewhere, a blood contract has been made with, and thus the user may use the Summoning Jutsu to summon those creatures. Beings that are created or show up as the result of other jutsu are normally just classified as Ninjustu. ~ NOTASTAFF Daniel Friesen (DanTMan, Nadir Seen Fire) (talk) May 31, 2009 @ 19:36 (UTC)


 * When the Naraka path uses it it just appears, a la the Dead Demon Consuming Seal. When Nagato uses it it appears in a puff of smoke like summons do. Unless the smoke is from something else, there are conflicting accounts (not that I seriously believe it's being summoned from somewhere). ~SnapperTo 19:47, 31 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The same discussion could be held about what Susano'o is. I think that the King Of Hell is the summoning of a creature living somewhere else (I would bet my money that it resides in Hell :P), but not through the normal Kuchiyose no Jutsu else it would be a technique of the Animal Path. I think it is ninjutsu summoning in the end (I understood from the discussion that the dilemma was whether it was ninjutsu or genjutsu) but perhaps not through the conventional Kuchiyose involving blood contracts and such. - MadaraU (talk) 19:09, October 9, 2009 (UTC)

Outer Path
In chapter 449, Konan calls the King of Hell the seventh Pain; the. I think this should be mentioned somewhere. --ShounenSuki (talk 11:37, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I thought she called Nagato the Outer Path. /shrug But I'll add it.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 13:33, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, maybe I misinterpreted it...
 * Here's what Konan said, translated as literally as I could:
 * To me, it seems Konan is talking about the technique Nagato is about to use, referring to that as the seventh Pain and not Nagato. --ShounenSuki (talk 13:53, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Just by reading it, I think she was talking about well agian Nagato. "Nagato's [Rinnegan] is a technique that contorls life and deaht itself, the Seventh Pain." By replacing eye power with Rinnegan (which I assume that is what she ment), I think is referring to the user of it, Nagato as the seventh Pain.--14:03, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I assumed she was talking about the Outer Path: Samsara of Heavenly Life Technique, because Naruto asked what technique Nagato was using. --ShounenSuki (talk 14:07, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm getting confused now....you assume one thing, I assume the other. Neither of us can be sure because damn Kishimoto likes to do this...Compromise then?--TheUltimate3 (talk) 14:17, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Compromises are always good. What do you suggest? --ShounenSuki (talk 14:21, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * The Outer Path is mentioned somewhere in the Six Paths page...referencing Nagato and the King of Hell...somehow...fill in the blanks as I know there are blanks.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 14:23, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * How about something like... "Just before Nagato used the Outer Path: Samsara of Heavenly Life Technique, Konan explained the technique to Naruto, mentioning a seventh Pain. Referring to it as the, it is not entirely clear whether she meant Nagato or the King of Hell used in the technique." --ShounenSuki (talk 14:38, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Perfect! --TheUltimate3 (talk) 14:43, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I added it to the Six paths of Pain page. If you don't agree on the placing, feel free to move it around. --ShounenSuki (talk 15:16, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ha ha, that was one of the most civilized discussions, nice. However I am of the opinion that Gedo is indeed Nagato. First of all it seemed extremely clear that Naraka Path used the King Of Hell in those truth or false/life or death "contests" with the villagers of Konoha. It would be awkward if the seventh path would be used by another path. Secondly, Nagato used all those dead bodies because he had control over life and death (much like how I understood the Gedo's powers). If indeed the King Of Hell is the Gedo (the life and death path outside the other paths - gedo in itself means outer from what I've understood, outer as in outside of the six realms: god, animal, human etc) it would be awkward for it to be used by another path which is in fact a dead body (like the Naraka path was). I hope I have not cast more confusion. I am almost completely sure that Nagato is the Gedo (Outer Path) and in the Pain Rikudo article it should be mentioned. I decided not to go on my own with modifying after seeing this discussion. I am leaving it at your call and correct me if I understood something wrong. Oh and by the way SHOUNENSUKI (master of jap here on narutowiki ^:)^ - I am not being ironic :P )please tell us the name of the King Of Hell technique in jap. In fact that is why I stumbled upon this discussion, because of the technique's name :D - MadaraU (talk) 18:54, October 9, 2009 (UTC)
 * Perfect! --TheUltimate3 (talk) 14:43, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * I added it to the Six paths of Pain page. If you don't agree on the placing, feel free to move it around. --ShounenSuki (talk 15:16, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Ha ha, that was one of the most civilized discussions, nice. However I am of the opinion that Gedo is indeed Nagato. First of all it seemed extremely clear that Naraka Path used the King Of Hell in those truth or false/life or death "contests" with the villagers of Konoha. It would be awkward if the seventh path would be used by another path. Secondly, Nagato used all those dead bodies because he had control over life and death (much like how I understood the Gedo's powers). If indeed the King Of Hell is the Gedo (the life and death path outside the other paths - gedo in itself means outer from what I've understood, outer as in outside of the six realms: god, animal, human etc) it would be awkward for it to be used by another path which is in fact a dead body (like the Naraka path was). I hope I have not cast more confusion. I am almost completely sure that Nagato is the Gedo (Outer Path) and in the Pain Rikudo article it should be mentioned. I decided not to go on my own with modifying after seeing this discussion. I am leaving it at your call and correct me if I understood something wrong. Oh and by the way SHOUNENSUKI (master of jap here on narutowiki ^:)^ - I am not being ironic :P )please tell us the name of the King Of Hell technique in jap. In fact that is why I stumbled upon this discussion, because of the technique's name :D - MadaraU (talk) 18:54, October 9, 2009 (UTC)

I agree with MadaraU. Now that we have more information, what is the difference in their abilities? Here's what I think.
 * The Naraka Path = This path has control of the King of Hell itself. The path's primary role is to present beings before the King of Hell for interrogation, or in a broader sense, judgment. If the being has "impure Karma" (negative actions of mind, speech, or body), the King of Hell takes their life force into it's mouth and consumes it. If we can assume this ability was used back in the days of the Sage, it could be used to judge and punish truly heinous individuals, and possible to send demons/yoki to the underworld. The Naraka path could also have been used for intimidation, as beings presented to the King of Hell appear to be physically paralyzed with something akin to fear.
 * The Outer Path = This path is Nagato himself, who has the power to control Life and Death. This is a separate power from the other six paths. The abilities include, (1) The resurrection of deceased bodies back to living functionality, with or without their original souls. This ability can be used in "conjunction" with the King of Hell, through the use of the Naraka path's ability. This would mean the ability to heal and repair the other paths derives from the Outer Path. The Outer Path: Samsara of Heavenly Life Technique and how the individual Six Paths of Pain were created comes from this ability. (2) The extraction and sealing of spirits/souls taken from living beings, such as humans and demons (i.e. Tailed Beasts). This ability can be used in "conjunction" with Demonic Statue of the Outer Path.

The gist of what I'm saying is this. The Naraka Path's ability is specifically to control the King of Hell. The Outer Path's ability is to specifically control Life and Death. These are 2 separate abilities. Nagato is specifically referred to by Konan as the 7th Path, not the King of Hell. Lastly....I feel really strongly about this. So even if my fellow members don't agree with what I'm saying, I hope that someone will make sure there is a proper distinction between the Naraka and Outer Paths.Cidem1324

Going through all your points. With this, there is a clear distinction between the Outer Path and the Naraka Path. The Naraka Path is one of the Six Paths of Pain which Pain uses to do his dastardly deeds and the Outer path the Seventh Pain which Nagato, the user of the Rinnegan can control, and he does frequently through the use of the Naraka path.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 17:16, December 9, 2009 (UTC)
 * The Naraka path, being an extension of Pain is the only one that can use the King of Hell, that is true.
 * The second point however is where things get skewed. The Naraka path isn't using the jutsu, Pain is. The Naraka path is just the body that he can channel the King of Hell through. Read the direct text from the manga, the Rinnegan controls the Seventh Pain, not IS the Seventh Pain, then based off the fanbook where it is clear that Pain is not the Outer Path.


 * Could you tell me where it says that Nagato isn't the Outer Path, it would solve a lot of my confusion. I would greatly appreciate it. Cidem1324


 * Second fanbook. ~SnapperTo 23:14, December 9, 2009 (UTC)


 * Alright, I found it. Here's what it says.


 * "Top-secret File #6: The power of the legendary dojutsu, the Rinnegan


 * The "realms" of Asura, Animal, Preta, Deva, Human, Naraka, and finally Heretic (Outer Path). He who possesses the Rinnegan is capable of utilizing seven different powers. And of those, the one that stands out most is that of the Heretic realm. Used only by Nagato, the main entity in control of Pain, its powers transcend even the very concepts of life and death!! While it consumes a great amount of chakra, by using it one may even bring back to life individuals who have already met their end.


 * Quotation: "The power of Nagato's eyes allow him to use jutsu that grant mastery over life and death.""


 * This has given me a new perspective. The King of Hell can't be the Outer Path. B/c if he was, the Naraka Path couldn't be able to use it, since only Nagato can. So from what I can conclude is that the Naraka Path power is to control the King of Hell, while only Nagato alone can use the Outer Path power to control Life and Death.


 * The Deva Path power is divine force, the Asura Path power is body amplifications, the Human Path power is to read minds, the Animal Path power is multiple summonings, the Preta Path power is to absorb energy, and the Naraka Path power is the control of the King of Hell. The Outer Path power is the control of Life and Death, where techniques like the Gedō: Rinne Tensei and the Gedō: Mazō derive from. Cidem1324


 * I'd like to say a few things on this subject. First of all, here is my translation of that text:
 * Absolute Secret File 6: The power of the Legendary Dōjutsu, the "Rinnegan"
 * The Asura Path, the Animal Path, the Preta Path, the Deva Path, the Human Path, the Naraka Path, and finally the Outer Path. The wielder of the Rinnegan has seven powers to his beck and call. Giving off a particularly conspicuous vibe is the Outer Path. With the ability that can only be used by Nagato, the "real body" that manipulates Pain, he has the power to transcend even the concepts of Life and Death!! It consumes a large amount of chakra, but when used, it has the ability to even ressurect those who have met with Death.
 * [picture of Kakashi waking up after being ressurected]
 * ↑By exchanging his own life, Nagato revived Konoha's dead, who had fallen to the attack...!!
 * This text makes it clear that Nagato is not the Outer Path. When the Outer Path was introduced in the manga, it was already made clear (at least to me) that the Outer Path was referring to the technique used by Nagato and not Nagato himself. The Path used to perform the Outer Path: Samsara of Heavenly Life Technique is the Outer Path, and that is the so-called King of Hell. Everything the King of Hell has done was related to controlling Life and Death, exactly as the abilities of the Outer Path describe.
 * Yes, it is odd that Naraka Path uses the King of Hell, but he could be acting as a medium for the Outer Path. Maybe it is impossible for the Outer Path to directly interact with humans or something. We were never given a clear explanation of the powers of the individual Paths, except for the Outer Path and the King of Hell fits that description. --ShounenSuki (talk 00:39, December 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * Completely off topic, but can we figure out a way to reference how we used to call this the King of Hell? /shrug it just seems so catchy of a name to waste. Feel free to ignore this and focus on the discussion at hand.--01:06, December 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * I understand what you're saying ShounenSuki, and I agree with most of what you've said. But things just don't add up if the Outer Path is the King of Hell itself.
 * One, there has to be 7 "unique" abilities the Rinnegan grants. If the Outer Path blankets all of the King of Hell's abilities, what's the Naraka Path's unique ability?
 * Second, the Outer Path does not have to be Nagato, it can simply be the power to control Life and Death itself.
 * Third, the Naraka Path represents demons, and the King of Hell is, from the looks of it, a demon. So the theme fits.
 * Fourth, the Outer Path can refer to 2 jutsus, Gedō: Rinne Tensei and the Gedō: Mazō, both done by Nagato, the "original body". This indicates that Outer Path is more of a descriptor for the type of jutsu, like Elemental Releases.
 * Fifth, most importantly, there is no real reason to blanket all of what the King of Hell can do into one Path.
 * The Naraka Path has been shown to use the King of Hell for interrogations/judgments, taking/consoming life force energy, and for restoring "soulless" Pain bodies to living functionality. What the Naraka Path has never been shown doing is making the King of Hell give off life force energy and having the souls/spirits return back to their physical vessels. This is something that only the Outer Path power was shown doing, and, from what I can tell, something the Naraka Path is incapable of doing. Cidem1324

I thought it's already been established that the Naraka path can't bring back the dead. So...what exactly does this have to do with the Outer path? Hell what does this have to do with anything cause in the end, it's all still Pain. Pain is still the one doing everything.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 03:08, December 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * It's not Pain that can do all 7 "unique" Pain abilities, but Nagato. Each Pain Path has a "unique" ability, and I want to make sure they don't completely overlap. At the moment, Naraka Path and Outer Path have the same ability, b/c it's assumed that the Outer Path is the King of Hell itself. I want to go in and say that only the Outer Path can truly revive someone back to life, but I'm worry it will be reverted. Can I get permission to fix up the articles on the two Paths?
 * Ok I am really confuseded. What we know is that the Naraka Path summons the King of Hell for interrogation and repairing the damaged Paths. The Outer Path IS the King of Hell and it has the power over Life and Death. Your issue is that according to the article, they do the same thing, and you don't want them to overlap. The problem is, they do overlap. The Naraka Path used the King of Hell to kill a guy and repair the Asura and Preta Path and then Nagato used it again when he revealed that he could control the Outer Path. It's already mentioned in the Naraka Path's section that it does not have the power to revive people so I'm not really sure what you want to add.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 03:32, December 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * For one thing, I want to make the distinction of the 2 Paths clear. The Naraka Path ability is to control the King of Hell. Nagato can control it as well, since he's capable of performing all the Pain Path abilities. However, Nagato is the only one that can use the Outer Path ability, the power to control Life and Death. This here is the essence of the Outer Path.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/449/08/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/449/09/


 * The Outer Path ability is not the King of Hell itself, the Outer Path ability is the light that draws back an individual's spirit/soul back to their physical vessel. This is what I want to get at. That the Naraka Path ability is only to control the King of Hell, and the Outer Path ability is only to control Life and Death. When using the Outer Path: Samsara of Heavenly Life Technique, the Naraka Path ability to control the King of Hell is used, but it was mainly to channel the Outer Path ability through it. So there is an overlap, but there is also a distinction btw the abilities. Cidem1324


 * So...you're saying the Outer Path...is ray of lights the King of Hell spit out. You do know those were the souls of the recently deceased right? The Naraka Path article already said that it can't revive the dead, if you want to add that only Nagato can do that, then do it. But like I said, the distiction between the two is already there: The Naraka Path cannot use the Outer Path to revive the dead. Nagato being the main body can. If the last point isn't in the article, then simply add it.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 04:06, December 10, 2009 (UTC)
 * According to ShounenSuki's translation, the only part of the Outer Path's abilities that can be used exclusively by Nagato is the ability to bring people back to life. So I think that the Naraka Path can summon it, and use it to interrogate people, as well as repair the other Paths of Pain. But only Nagato can restore normal people's life.--Enoki911 (talk) 08:06, January 6, 2010 (UTC)

Well, to me, the Outer Path isn't the King of Hell, since the King of Hell wasn't called the Outer Path in the first place. Also, the Paths are symbolically connected to one another, but not to the extent of one relying on the use of another. The Outer Path is symbolically a heretic, which does not belong to the system of the other Six Paths. It more seems like the lives taken by Pain are "stored" in the King of Hell, and the Outer Path, which symbolically "allows one to pass through the laws of all other six Paths, which are Pain," sets the souls free, overcoming the laws of Life and Death. It more looks like the Outer Path does not have a body, more like an subtle, invisible spirit or force/energy. This being said, it might as well be something normal humans cannot understand.--GoDai (talk) 04:52, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

I have to completely disagree with this, mostly because one of Nagato's other pain bodies summoned the exact same king of hell. Nagato's jutsu was just better, it showed far more control over the king of hell's actions. The king of hell is not the 7th pain. Otherwise one of the other pain's wouldn't have been summoning him at the same time. This whole thing seems to be based on a misconception. And I don't know where some of these translations came from, but what it says in the manga is very clear and blunt that Nagato is essentially the 7th pain. The king of hell is just a tool, one used by more than one pain. If the king of hell was the 7th, then the fact naraka can summon him would just be silly. What makes Nagato the 7th pain is he seems to have absolute control over the king of hell. That is the one and only difference between him and the naraka path using the king of hell. But would it make much sense if naraka's only power was to be able to summon one of the other paths to do his fighting for him? It would make him absolutely useless.

The King of Hell is just a summons, what is different is the extent they can control them. Frankly I'm going to go with the translations on every single issue of the manga I've been able to find on the internet: Nagato is the 7th pain. And this whole article seems useless... Also, gedo refers to the tech. Not specifically to the king of hell.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/449/01/ http://www.omiyageh.com/2009/05/read-naruto-manga-449-online.html http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7u9gMhrSm6Y/Sh-Gy8nbCDI/AAAAAAAACxk/yJYYUuS1Bf0/s1600-h/01.jpg

There is not a single translation I've found that agrees with this article--

Miah

Revisisted
I know that this is an old subject, but I still object to the idea of this entity being referred to as the Outer Path. This is absolutely not the case, as far as I can tell. Even on Japanese forums and in the Japanese wiki, they're referred to as seperate entities, to say nothing of the Official Premium Fanbook. They refer to this entity as Yama (閻魔, enma), which is used by the Naraka Path to torture and interrogate victims. This plays into Buddhist cosmology, in which Yama is the god and judge of the dead, and rules over the Naraka. The Naraka torture the dead until their negative karma is spent, at which point they return the dead to Yama so they can be judged again. In Naruto, the Naraka Path uses Yama to judge the validity of confessions given by his victims, and also brings the dead bodies of other Paths to it so they can be revived.

On the other hand, "Nagato himself" (長門自身) is referred to as the Outer Path, a being with control over life and death. Nagato's control over life and death allows him to revive the recently deceased by returning their souls to them from Yama. This is the true power of the Outer Path, and the core concept behind Nagato's Rinnegan, which is literally called "Samsara Eye", referring to the endless cycle of life and death in Buddhism. I still haven't found anything in Japanese which indicates that Yama is the Outer Path. There's also the fact that Nagato has access to at least two "Outer Path" abilities, one of which has nothing at all to do with Yama.

Anyway, that's my two cents. If it's not a persuasive enough argument, I suppose it'll have to wait until the next Official Data Book comes out, which should be able to concretely define all of Nagato's abilities. FF-Suzaku (talk) 19:06, April 28, 2010 (UTC)


 * Also, just wanted to add: It makes very little sense for Yama to be called the "Outer Path". Taking into account Buddhist teachings and practices, an "Outer Path" is considered a wrong, albeit altruistic, path that one seeks while trying to gain enlightenment (asceticism, for example). Those who practice these sorts of teachings, it is believed, will never truly escape the samsara and attain nirvana; to reach nirvana, one must instead follow the "Middle Path": the Noble Eightfold Path). The concept of the Outer Path being a sort of embodiment of the Rinnegan, which by its very nature represents the endless cycle of the samsara, would indicate (at least to me) that the Outer Path is meant to be linked with the Rinnegan bearer himself, and not Yama, ruler of the Naraka. Hence why control over life and death would be considered the "true power" of the Outer Path. Likewise, Nagato himself is an embodiement of the "Outer Path", as he is pursuing an obviously heretical path, seeking (and believing that he has obtained) enlightenment and even godhood. FF-Suzaku (talk) 19:27, April 28, 2010 (UTC)

I am also against calling the King of Hell the Outer Path, as it is just an extension of the Naraka Path's ability. Although we observe that even souls that aren't killed by Pain are revived in Outer Path: Samsara of Heavenly Life Technique, they were symbolically killed by Pain, as with Kakashi, who died of chakra depletion from fighting Pain. There is a lot of symbolism tied with the Rinnegan and its Paths. My idea is that the Seven Paths that the Rinnegan allows the user to control are seven separate forces, with the Outer Path being what goes against the ways of the other Six Paths. The Six Paths of Pain are the embodiments of the Six Paths, as Nagato himself is able to use all of their techniques. Only the Outer Path has no embodiment, requiring Nagato himself to use its techniques. The Databook states the user of the Rinnegan has access to the Seven Paths' abilities, which are theoretically seven different abilities. If the King of Hell is the Outer Path, that would not make sense, as it then be a "heretic" ability that supports the purpose of a "righteous" ability. However, I also believe that Nagato himself is not the Outer Path, only one who can control it and the other Paths. Nagato is the user of the Rinnegan, and is therefore the one who controls the seven Paths. The seventh path is something that normal beings cannot completely understand, like a godly spirit, energy, or force that has the ability to go against the ways of the other six paths. --GoDai (talk) 00:53, April 29, 2010 (UTC)

Black Flames?
I see black flames below the King Of Hell. Isn't that Amaterasu?
 * Could be because when Amaterasu was used it was said (by Zetsu if I am not mistaken) that the technique brought forth the Black Flames of Hell (the place from which, according to the name of the technique bringing it forth, the King of Hell comes) - MadaraU (talk) 07:22, October 11, 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think that Zetsu meant that literally. It could still be Amaterasu, though.--Enoki911 (talk) 01:35, March 8, 2010 (UTC)

Are We Sure
Are We Sure that this Guy is the Outer Path and it isn't Nagato--Nintendo-Fan (talk) 02:03, December 10, 2009 (UTC)Nintendo-Fan


 * The people who have been writing these articles are under a misconception. According to the just-released Official Premium Fanbook, the Outer Path is Nagato's body, which contains the abilities of all the Six Paths of Pain, as well as mastery over life and death. Only Nagato's body is able to use the Outer Path doujutsu.


 * I guess you didn't read the section Outer Path, two sections above this one.--Enoki911 (talk) 05:46, January 10, 2010 (UTC)

Actually I think he did. This whole argument seems to be 1 persons translation that says Yama is the 7th path vs the translations of everyone else, including most of the Japanese world, if you bother to look at Japanese language sites.

Kanji
What does the kanji on the Outer Path's forehead mean?
 * The kanji means . In Japanese art, Yama, the King of the Naraka, is usually depicted with this kanji on his crown. --ShounenSuki (talk 01:44, December 12, 2009 (UTC)
 * Hence the name "King of Hell".--TheUltimate3 (talk) 01:45, December 12, 2009 (UTC)

Amateratsu Like Flame Trivia
Since it has been revealed to be red flames in the anime shouldn't we take out the trivia portion of it saying that around the base surrounds amateratsu like flames? Hidan13 (talk) 03:35, April 23, 2010 (UTC)