<div class="quote"><i> <p>Rachin123 wrote: @Super </p><p>Just because you have the Rinnegan means you are immune to genjutsu. By that logic Pain shouldn't have been affected. The Bringer of Darkness is a A-rank level genjutsu. It ain't no joke. Sasuke put tailed beasts in genjutsu is apparently his best feat but the fact that tailed beasts aren't known for having a tolerance to genjutsu so it is impressive on the numbers and at his "weak" state I guess but that's about it. </p><p>Also, I'm sure Perfect Susanoo will "shatter" his Shinsusenju. That's over exaggerating. Also, I don't see any difference between the Sasuke from the end of Part II and adult Sasuke other than being able to open portals. </p> </i></div>
<p>1. A-Rank is the difficulty, NOT the power. Sasuke is immune to <i>Infinite Tsukuyomi</i> with the Rinnegan, the strongest genjutsu <i>in existence</i>. Bringer of Darkness won't do shit, hell it probably wasn't much use against Madara due to having the Sharingan. </p><p>2. Shinsusenju isn't leaving a scratch on Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo. Both his Six Paths powered Chidori and Naruto's Six Paths powered Bijudama could only cause minor damage to it when they created a burst that <i>dwarfed</i> Shinsusenju and Madara's Majestic Attire: Susanoo clash. Time to drop some cognitive dissonance too Rachin123: Sasuke showed astronomic growth since the War. A base Chidori became strong enough to vaporize a VILLAGE SIZED METEOR casually from Sasuke. He can do what Kaguya can do. His blows can UPROOT a Shinju. </p><p>You need to stop ignoring feats. Hashirama has no chance. He was surpassed long, long <i>long</i> ago. Naruto and Sasuke tower over Hashirama and Madara to such an extent that even Juubi Jin Madara ended up far weaker than their VOTE2 selves. </p>

<p>@Super </p><p>1. Like I said being of the level of genjutsu shows the capability of the technique. So while it is ranked on difficulty, it is for a reason. The technique is that good obviously. Sasuke wasn't immune. Be blocked the light with his Susanoo. No evidence proves that he could have just sat there without Susanoo and not be affected by the IT. You believe the Bringer of Darkness won't do "shit", that's your call. </p><p>2. What!? That meteor was not village sized. Talk about exaggeration. It was big and impressive what he did with Chidori though. Also, the fact that Sasuke needs to use Perfect Susanoo already shows that Hashirama is a strong opponent for Sasuke. </p><p>I'm not ignoring feats I'm just not hyping them up like you are. I'm not denying Sasuke isn't stronger than Hashirama, I'm just saying it won't be a walk in the park. Sasuke needed Naruto to battle Kaguya, and them defeating them was part in thanks to Kakashi, Obito and Sakura, and they had to seal her because they couldn't kill her, and couldn't even beat Jubi Madara. I'm not discrediting him on that either, just stating facts. People try to use the fact that Naruto and Sasuke were the chosen ones to fight Kaguya but forget that they didn't even do it alone. So yes they were more powerful than Hashirama and Madara but towering them, not even. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>Rachin123 wrote: @Super </p><p>1. Like I said being of the level of genjutsu shows the capability of the technique. So while it is ranked on difficulty, it is for a reason. The technique is that good obviously. Sasuke wasn't immune. Be blocked the light with his Susanoo. No evidence proves that he could have just sat there without Susanoo and not be affected by the IT. You believe the Bringer of Darkness won't do "shit", that's your call. </p><p>2. What!? That meteor was not village sized. Talk about exaggeration. It was big and impressive what he did with Chidori though. Also, the fact that Sasuke needs to use Perfect Susanoo already shows that Hashirama is a strong opponent for Sasuke. </p><p>I'm not ignoring feats I'm just not hyping them up like you are. I'm not denying Sasuke isn't stronger than Hashirama, I'm just saying it won't be a walk in the park. Sasuke needed Naruto to battle Kaguya, and them defeating them was part in thanks to Kakashi, Obito and Sakura, and they had to seal her because they couldn't kill her, and couldn't even beat Jubi Madara. I'm not discrediting him on that either, just stating facts. People try to use the fact that Naruto and Sasuke were the chosen ones to fight Kaguya but forget that they didn't even do it alone. So yes they were more powerful than Hashirama and Madara but towering them, not even. </p> </i></div>
<p>1. It won't do shit since even HIRUZEN in his old age could fight through it. Dojutsu users in general would see through it. And the Rinnegan did make Sasuke invulnerable to Mugen Tsukuyomi, Susanoo was used to protect the other members of Team 7. Bringer of Darkness is useless in this battle. </p><p>2. No exaggeration. It was the size of Konoha even after being smashed in half by Rock Lee and those other ninja. In reality, the meteor busting shows he DOESN'T need Perfect Susanoo to defeat Hashirama. He can either blitz him, teleport his sword into Hashirama's head, or drop him in Kaguya's lava world before he can react. If we're going firepower to firepower, Sasuke's Perfect Susanoo <i>far</i> outstrips Hashirama after getting the Rinnegan as shown via his battles with Madara (slicing up meteors that were country size) and his clash with Naruto's Six Path Bijudama in the Valley of the End. </p><p>I'm not exaggerating the feats, you're downplaying them. We know that Naruto and Sasuke are tiers stronger than Sage Mode Hashirama and EMS Sasuke because of one simple fact: Hashirama admitted Juubi Jin Obito was stronger than him. Naruto and Sasuke individually kicked Juubi Jin Madara's ass, whose far stronger than Juubi Jin Obito before they had even fully mastered their powers. Naruto and Sasuke were going to defeat Madara individually, but needed Hagoromo's seals to free the Biju like Naruto wanted, and Hagoromo was two steps ahead and was thinking of Kaguya returning hence the seal's true usage. They also performed extremely well against Kaguya, someone Hashirama has absolutely NO chance against. Then after the Kaguya fight, after they mastered their powers Sasuke was directly compared to <i>Hagoromo</i> by Kurama. </p><p>Not to mention The Last's version of Naruto <i>overpowering an attack that could cut the moon in half</i> on top of tanking it. Made even more impressive that the Golden Wheel Explosion had more than enough power to destroy the moon outright after overpowering its GBE, just focused into a blade form. And the moon is the same size as ours given it needed to keep the tides in check on Naruto world. Then the feats in the Boruto movie, which are above even that. </p><p>I'm sorry, they do tower over Madara and Hashirama. Its power progression. Naruto and Sasuke got far stronger than their teenage selves who had already surpassed Hashirama and Madara by leaps and bounds. Arguing 'well they couldn't beat Madara or Kaguya on their own' also isn't an argument, since the former from their feats (and the fact they kicked his ass twice individually) showed they could, and the later not even Hagoromo and Hamura could defeat her just seal her, so its not a detriment. While they weren't alone against Kaguya, Naruto showed he could fight her one on one and <i>hold his own</i> on his own, flat out overpowered her at one point and blitzed her and ripped her arm off. And Sasuke is in the same general area of power then. You make it seem that Hashirama is the same caliber of opponent as Juubi Jin Madara and Kaguya. </p>

<p>@Super First off please stop cussing. I know it isn't at me but I'm not real cool with it being used to describe something when talking to me. I said what I said. I want to respond on some of your examples because I can elaborate and correct on some things but frankly I would more rather leave it be as I'm getting bored on the subject so this is farewell. </p>

<p>Naruto and sasuke never kicked madara's ass. In fact, they failed to stop him from escaping and once he came back he fully distracted them with limbo clones and chibaku tensi. </p><p>Naruto and sasuke needed help from the alliance and kages to beat obito, and even that was plot armor because they didn't have hagoromo seals. </p><p>Naruto and sasuke defeated kaguya by touching her thanks to the seals which required the help of kakashi and sakura. Kaguya is battle inexperienced and not the smartest either. Hashriama has battle experience, and massive battle experience at that. Sasuke and naruto only " surpassedd" hashirama and madara after their hax power ups and not a second before. Sasuke went from being unable to beat a blind madarato being able to slaughter hashriama? I don't think so </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>Rachin123 wrote: @Super First off please stop cussing. I know it isn't at me but I'm not real cool with it being used to describe something when talking to me. I said what I said. I want to respond on some of your examples because I can elaborate and correct on some things but frankly I would more rather leave it be as I'm getting bored on the subject so this is farewell. </p> </i></div>
<p>I'm used to cussing in debates, they're generally okay unless you're insulting someone. What to elaborate or correct, those feats are valid and you'd have to make a lot of mental gymnastics to say they're incorrect. Hashirama isn't the same caliber of opponent that Juubi Jin Madara or Kaguya were, thus saying that Naruto and Sasuke would have trouble with him since they couldn't defeat the latter two on their own isn't an argument. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>MlGshinobi wrote: </p> Naruto and sasuke never kicked madara's ass. In fact, they failed to stop him from escaping and once he came back he fully distracted them with limbo clones and chibaku tensi. </i></div>
<p>Both Naruto and Sasuke cut Madara in half, the former even got a beating on top of it. Naruto and Sasuke effortlessly dealt with his Limbo and Chibaku Tensei. The reason why he used so many distractions and resorted to Infinte Tsukuyomi is because he couldn't defeat them. He ran scared. </p> <div class="quote"><i>Naruto and sasuke needed help from the alliance and kages to beat obito, and even that was plot armor because they didn't have hagoromo seals.</i></div>
<p>...what does that part have to do with the topic? Adult Naruto and Sasuke are so much stronger than their pre-Hagoromo selves its not even worth a mention. </p> <div class="quote"><i>Naruto and sasuke defeated kaguya by touching her thanks to the seals which required the help of kakashi and sakura. Kaguya is battle inexperienced and not the smartest either. Hashriama has battle experience, and massive battle experience at that. Sasuke and naruto only " surpassedd" hashirama and madara after their hax power ups and not a second before. Sasuke went from being unable to beat a blind madarato being able to slaughter hashriama? I don't think so </i></div>
<p>Except from feats, Sasuke can slaughter Hashirama. Quite easily. Sasuke doesn't have a lot of battle experience as an Adult? Bias much? And you don't put 'surpassed' in quotes when the manga flat out says both are stronger than Hashirama and Madara and by a quite a bit amount. </p><p>Hashirama isn't the same caliber as Kaguya or any Juubi Jin, why put him AT that level? </p>

<p>It matters because you claimed that since hashriama couldn't beat jubbi obito but sasuke/ naruto could and thus they surpassed him. But I counter that because they only did so with plot armor plus the help of entire alliance. </p><p>Cutting him in half is irrelevant, madara knows he is immortal so tanking those hits was child's play for him. He " resorted"to infinite tsyukyomi because that was his whole plan from the beginning. He came back from the dead for this goal. He needed his other eye so he got away and got it and naruto and sasuke couldn't stop him from doing so. Sasuke even remarks " shit" as he failed to stop madara from escaping.after they survived tsyukyomi he was ready to demolish them but plot armor saves the day as black zetsu betrays madara right at that moment. The chibaku tensi and limbo clones were purely a distraction and it occupied naruto and sasuke while madara accomplished his dream. </p><p>Sasuke doesn't have anywhere the amount of battle experience that hashirama has who has been fighting and killing uchiha adults since he waa a kid in the most hostile era of shinobi history. I never said hashirama is in the level of a jubbi jin but this is now a 1v1 fight with no plot armor. Edo hashriama overwhelmed edo rinnegan madara who also had hashirama's techniques and hashirama wasn't even using his top budda. By feats hashirama can destroy perfect susanoo, has sage mode, experience battling the rinnegan, healing factor etc. Sasuke probably wins most likely because of his power up but am I very skeptical of that, and sasuke' s best feats against naruto were only after he absorb ed the chakra of the tailed beasts which he doesn't have in this fight. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>MlGshinobi wrote: </p> It matters because you claimed that since hashriama couldn't beat jubbi obito but sasuke/ naruto could and thus they surpassed him. But I counter that because they only did so with plot armor plus the help of entire alliance. </i></div>
<p>Uh what? No you missed my argument entirely. Hashirama is weaker than Juubi Jin Obito. <i>However</i>, when Naruto achieved Six Paths Sage Mode and Sasuke achieved the Rinnegan, they both got stronger individually than any Juubi Jin from their feats. Pre-Hagoromo they were, at best, Hashirama and Madara's equals, after, they surpassed them. By adulthood, Naruto and Sasuke were dealing with threats that Hashirama has zero chance against and were winning. </p> <div class="quote"><i>Cutting him in half is irrelevant, madara knows he is immortal so tanking those hits was child's play for him. He " resorted"to infinite tsyukyomi because that was his whole plan from the beginning. He came back from the dead for this goal. He needed his other eye so he got away and got it and naruto and sasuke couldn't stop him from doing so. Sasuke even remarks " shit" as he failed to stop madara from escaping.after they survived tsyukyomi he was ready to demolish them but plot armor saves the day as black zetsu betrays madara right at that moment. The chibaku tensi and limbo clones were purely a distraction and it occupied naruto and sasuke while madara accomplished his dream.</i></div>
<p>It does matter. Despite being 'immortal', it showed Naruto and Sasuke had the power to deal with him. And Madara isn't actually immortal, he can die and both Naruto and Sasuke had the capability of doing so from their feats. Madara realized he couldn't defeat them hence why he resorted to distractions and Mugen Tsukuyomi. Naruto alone effortlessly dealt with the Chibaku Tensei and Limbo Clones too. </p> <div class="quote"><i>Sasuke doesn't have anywhere the amount of battle experience that hashirama has who has been fighting and killing uchiha adults since he waa a kid in the most hostile era of shinobi history. I never said hashirama is in the level of a jubbi jin but this is now a 1v1 fight with no plot armor. Edo hashriama overwhelmed edo rinnegan madara who also had hashirama's techniques and hashirama wasn't even using his top budda. By feats hashirama can destroy perfect susanoo, has sage mode, experience battling the rinnegan, healing factor etc. Sasuke probably wins most likely because of his power up but am I very skeptical of that, and sasuke' s best feats against naruto were only after he absorb ed the chakra of the tailed beasts which he doesn't have in this fight. </i></div>
<p>Your biased argument doesn't make sense. You admit Hashirama isn't in the same level of power as or caliber as Juubi Jins or Kaguya, yet you claim that since he's killed far weaker Uchiha than Sasuke, he stands a chance against Adult Rinnegan Sasuke. And you claim its 'plot armor'? Seriously, that shows you have zero argument other than your own bias. You ignore or downplay any of Naruto and Sasuke's feats, claiming plot, while exaggerating Hashirama's. Oh and Hashirama never defeated Edo Madara, Madara played him for a fool the entire time and was holding back, we saw this when Madara kicked his ass when he came right back to life. </p><p>Sasuke (and Naruto) are GOD TIER characters now, and have been since they were teenagers (post-Hagoromo). Naruto is a pseudo Juubi Jin who can use all the powers of the Biju on top of having Gudodama and able to use massive amounts of Natural energy. Sasuke can travel between dimensions, destroy village sized meteors with a fricking Chidori, etc. Hashirama and Madara are not the best anymore. They aren't even close to being the best anymore. Stop whining 'plot' everytime a superior feat to their's is pointed out, and just accept they have been surpassed by a tremendous amount. You have a losing argument otherwise. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>SuperSaiyaMan wrote: </p> <div class="quote"> <p>MlGshinobi wrote: </p> It matters because you claimed that since hashriama couldn't beat jubbi obito but sasuke/ naruto could and thus they surpassed him. But I counter that because they only did so with plot armor plus the help of entire alliance. </i></div>
<p>Uh what? No you missed my argument entirely. Hashirama is weaker than Juubi Jin Obito. <i>However</i>, when Naruto achieved Six Paths Sage Mode and Sasuke achieved the Rinnegan, they both got stronger individually than any Juubi Jin from their feats. Pre-Hagoromo they were, at best, Hashirama and Madara's equals, after, they surpassed them. By adulthood, Naruto and Sasuke were dealing with threats that Hashirama has zero chance against and were winning. </p> <div class="quote"><i>Cutting him in half is irrelevant, madara knows he is immortal so tanking those hits was child's play for him. He " resorted"to infinite tsyukyomi because that was his whole plan from the beginning. He came back from the dead for this goal. He needed his other eye so he got away and got it and naruto and sasuke couldn't stop him from doing so. Sasuke even remarks " shit" as he failed to stop madara from escaping.after they survived tsyukyomi he was ready to demolish them but plot armor saves the day as black zetsu betrays madara right at that moment. The chibaku tensi and limbo clones were purely a distraction and it occupied naruto and sasuke while madara accomplished his dream.</i></div>
<p>It does matter. Despite being 'immortal', it showed Naruto and Sasuke had the power to deal with him. And Madara isn't actually immortal, he can die and both Naruto and Sasuke had the capability of doing so from their feats. Madara realized he couldn't defeat them hence why he resorted to distractions and Mugen Tsukuyomi. Naruto alone effortlessly dealt with the Chibaku Tensei and Limbo Clones too. </p> <div class="quote"><i>Sasuke doesn't have anywhere the amount of battle experience that hashirama has who has been fighting and killing uchiha adults since he waa a kid in the most hostile era of shinobi history. I never said hashirama is in the level of a jubbi jin but this is now a 1v1 fight with no plot armor. Edo hashriama overwhelmed edo rinnegan madara who also had hashirama's techniques and hashirama wasn't even using his top budda. By feats hashirama can destroy perfect susanoo, has sage mode, experience battling the rinnegan, healing factor etc. Sasuke probably wins most likely because of his power up but am I very skeptical of that, and sasuke' s best feats against naruto were only after he absorb ed the chakra of the tailed beasts which he doesn't have in this fight. </i></div>
<p>Your biased argument doesn't make sense. You admit Hashirama isn't in the same level of power as or caliber as Juubi Jins or Kaguya, yet you claim that since he's killed far weaker Uchiha than Sasuke, he stands a chance against Adult Rinnegan Sasuke. And you claim its 'plot armor'? Seriously, that shows you have zero argument other than your own bias. You ignore or downplay any of Naruto and Sasuke's feats, claiming plot, while exaggerating Hashirama's. Oh and Hashirama never defeated Edo Madara, Madara played him for a fool the entire time and was holding back, we saw this when Madara kicked his ass when he came right back to life. </p><p>Sasuke (and Naruto) are GOD TIER characters now, and have been since they were teenagers (post-Hagoromo). Naruto is a pseudo Juubi Jin who can use all the powers of the Biju on top of having Gudodama and able to use massive amounts of Natural energy. Sasuke can travel between dimensions, destroy village sized meteors with a fricking Chidori, etc. Hashirama and Madara are not the best anymore. They aren't even close to being the best anymore. Stop whining 'plot' everytime a superior feat to their's is pointed out, and just accept they have been surpassed by a tremendous amount. You have a losing argument otherwise. </p> </div> <p>Except that madara wasn't holding back, it was stated multiple times that even with kabuto's perfection, edo tensi are still weaker than their real life self. Hashriama even said " madara is back to his original strength" once he was revived. Obviously, if hashriama was also brought back to life he would continue to dominate. </p><p>
Like I said, madada effectively distracted naruto and sasuke and complete d his goal. Oh yea? So how does a person who isn't immortal survive bisection with ease? Naruto and sasuke needed the seals if they wanted to take him down and they couldn't even stop him from casting tsyukyomi. They tried to seal him but he stopped it with limbo substitution. Naruto and sasuke were no where near the equals of hashriama and madada pre hag gift. Sasuke was casually rekt by a blind madara. And sasuke and naruto individually stood no chance against any jubbi Jin either. Madara was the better of them and waa about to kill them if not for zetsu. And against kaguya it was a 4 on 1 fight. </p><p>Yea due to hag gift sasuke has the strength to beat hashriama but hashirama still has massive power of his own. And no I call plot when it clearly was plot that allowee their survival. </p>

<div class="quote"><i>Except that madara wasn't holding back, it was stated multiple times that even with kabuto's perfection, edo tensi are still weaker than their real life self. Hashriama even said " madara is back to his original strength" once he was revived. Obviously, if hashriama was also brought back to life he would continue to dominate. </i></div>
<p>Yeha, Madara was holding back. At any time, he could have immobilized Hashirama and took his Sage chakra. And no, he wouldn't have, Hashirama has no answer for Limbo at all. You keep exaggerating him. </p> <div class="quote"><i>Like I said, madada effectively distracted naruto and sasuke and complete d his goal. Oh yea? So how does a person who isn't immortal survive bisection with ease? Naruto and sasuke needed the seals if they wanted to take him down and they couldn't even stop him from casting tsyukyomi. They tried to seal him but he stopped it with limbo substitution. </i></div>
<p>The entire battle showed Madara hat a severe disadvantage against Naruto and Sasuke. They overwhelmed him at SEVERAL points. They cut in him half and effortlessly dealt with his best jutsus. You downplay them like they weren't making a scratch and then go 'lol he's immortal' when that was never proven, it was an empty boast from Madara. <div class = "quote"</ref>Naruto and sasuke were no where near the equals of hashriama and madada pre hag gift. Sasuke was casually rekt by a blind madara. And sasuke and naruto individually stood no chance against any jubbi Jin either. Madara was the better of them and waa about to kill them if not for zetsu. And against kaguya it was a 4 on 1 fight. </div> They were. They had reached Hashirama and Madara's level. Naruto's feats against Juubi Jin Obito, despite being weaker than him, were better than Hashirama could do and his strength was boosted by combining his tailed beast and Sage Mode states. Sasuke achieved Complete Body - Susanoo, the same power that Madara achieved and could shape it around Naruto's Biju Sage Mode. Both showed they were at the level of their predecessors. </p><p>You like to downplay, but its the truth. </p> <div class="quote"><i>Yea due to hag gift sasuke has the strength to beat hashriama but hashirama still has massive power of his own. And no I call plot when it clearly was plot that allowee their survival. </i></div>
<p>No, you call it plot since you hate the fact your favorite characters were surpassed. Naruto and Sasuke would have gotten far stronger than Hashirama and Madara even without Hagoromo due to one simple fact: the manga is named Naruto and Naruto and Sasuke are the main characters. Oh and its shown that within the manga, if a character masters a power, its there's. Its not borrowed or anything, its there's. </p><p>You don't really debate well and you ignore and downplay feats. Since if you acknowledged them, you'd be forced to concede. </p>