<p>Izanagi seems like the logical choice, but i just want to makes sure. did obito uses kamui to let the flames phase through him after contact or did he used izanagi? i think he used izanagi for 5 reasons.
</p><p>1. he could
2. said he kept it secret which is why he survived it. (itachi knows about kamui)
3. the flames hit and followed as obito walked back. so he wasn't intangible
4. he screamed in agony implying the flames did hit. wouldn't happen if kamui
5. in the dark area, it was silent for a sec. then obito returned. like izanagi
</p><p>
there was better reasons written by others, but i don't want to steal their glory
</p>
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<p>Izanagi theory still has this flaw - Obito said he kept some things secret from Itachi, which actually allowed him to survive back then, but Itachi was pretty knowledgeable about the kinjutsu of Uchiha, especially Izanagi/Izanami and their history, we know it for sure thanks to the battle against Kabuto and the aftermatch. It's hard to imagine Itachi wasn't able to foresee the possibility of "Madada", the legendary leader and the most powerful Uchiha in history, having mastered the Izanagi technique. That's why for me Kamui theory seems more plausible - Izanagi's limits were already explored and descriped, and Itachi was familiar with them, but Kamui was Obito's personal jutsu only he possessed. OK, Itachi is smart, but he's not omniscient. He wasn't even aware of Obito learning the truth about him, and he truly believed Tobi was Madara all the way.
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(Edited by Ravenlot 27)
<p>Kamui still doesn't work that way. Obito wasn't necessarily refering to Izanagi, but to his countless eyes.
</p><p>The only flaw about Izanagi is that Obito had to know about Itachi's scripted Amaterasu, so he could activate Izanagi before Amaterasu killed him. Maybe he activated it while Amaterasu hit him or so, but the fact that he came back unscathed is proof enough that it was Izanagi and not Kamui.
</p>
(Edited by Seelentau)
<p>@Seelentau: Perhaps Obito activated Izanagi the moment he saw Sasuke's eye change to Itachi's MS. There's almost always some time gap between moment when Itachi/Sasuke activates the technique and the moment when the black flames are actually manifested onto the victim. Sensors like Nagato could figure out Itachi activating the technique long before the black flames were actually produced.
</p><p>So I think Obito had sufficient time to activate Izanagi as the sequence of events gave him the necessary time. First, Sasuke's eye suddenly changes to Itachi's MS pattern. Then, blood starts flowing through the eye. And only <i>after</i> that do the black flames consume Obito. I think that's sufficient time for Obito to react with Izanagi before the flames hit him.
</p>
(Edited by BakumatsuWarrior)
<p>Nagato showed no such ability. He was looking at itachi's right eye and assumed it was amatersau from the bleeding but he was wrong, it was just kotoamatsukami working on itachi. Also, obito could have just prepped izanagi beforehand. Izanagi is one of the most inconsistent jutsu in the series, but in Danzo's use he would prep the hand signs, then after that each eye would remain open for 60 seconds protect ing from any attack in that time frame. Obito was shocked when he saw sasuke's eye changed, so there was no way he was focused enough to activate izanagi on that spot that fast, not even Danzo could do that, he just prepped izanagi before hand. But then again as I said, izanagi is inconsistent so the best answer for obito's survival was having his hidden eye have a prepped izanagi, or it wss simply plot.
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(Edited by MlGshinobi)
<div class="quote"><i>
<p>BakumatsuWarrior wrote:
</p><p>Thekillman wrote:
Can't he use Kamui to phase away only his body, and not the flames?
</p><p>Itachi must've figured out the teleportation part of Kamui, but did obito show him the phasing part?
</p><p>
I don't think we've ever seen Obito phasing through an attack <i>after</i> the said attack made physical contact with his body. This is nicely illustrated when that Aburame bodyguard of Danzo infected Obito's right arm with his nanovirus. Had Obito possessed the ability to remove the infection by phasing the virus away, he would have done so. Instead he just cut off his arm and replaced it with another one. The only way Obito could phase away from the virus would be <i>before</i> the virus made contact with his flesh, i.e. when the Aburame guy was lunging towards Obito but had not yet made physical contact. </p><p>The same thing seems to apply to the Amaterasu incident. Obito's body had already come into contact with the black flames. There probably was no way he could phase through it, since Obito hasn't shown any of that feat in the manga so far. So the two options are Izanagi or replacement of his body part with magic Hashi cells. But considering the fact that Obito appeared in one piece without any signs of amputation so quickly, the only explanation that fits is Izanagi. </p> </i></div>
<p>Hmm, interesting you brought that up. little off topic but still relevant as far as kamui goes. what is your take on genjutsu? i remember reading some threads few weeks ago on similar topic about whether or not genjutsu can effect obito's eyes/chakra network when he's in intangible mode. some say it should still work others say it won't. unfortunately I can't remember if the thread said if he gets hit by gen before or after going kamui. </p><p>excuse my quote error. i have no idea how that crap works. </p>
I don't think we've ever seen Obito phasing through an attack <i>after</i> the said attack made physical contact with his body. This is nicely illustrated when that Aburame bodyguard of Danzo infected Obito's right arm with his nanovirus. Had Obito possessed the ability to remove the infection by phasing the virus away, he would have done so. Instead he just cut off his arm and replaced it with another one. The only way Obito could phase away from the virus would be <i>before</i> the virus made contact with his flesh, i.e. when the Aburame guy was lunging towards Obito but had not yet made physical contact. </p><p>The same thing seems to apply to the Amaterasu incident. Obito's body had already come into contact with the black flames. There probably was no way he could phase through it, since Obito hasn't shown any of that feat in the manga so far. So the two options are Izanagi or replacement of his body part with magic Hashi cells. But considering the fact that Obito appeared in one piece without any signs of amputation so quickly, the only explanation that fits is Izanagi. </p> </i></div>
<p>Hmm, interesting you brought that up. little off topic but still relevant as far as kamui goes. what is your take on genjutsu? i remember reading some threads few weeks ago on similar topic about whether or not genjutsu can effect obito's eyes/chakra network when he's in intangible mode. some say it should still work others say it won't. unfortunately I can't remember if the thread said if he gets hit by gen before or after going kamui. </p><p>excuse my quote error. i have no idea how that crap works. </p>
(Edited by Sayian101)
<div class="quote"><i>
<p>MIGshinobi said:
Nagato showed no such ability. He was looking at itachi's right eye and assumed it was amatersau from the bleeding but he was wrong, it was just kotoamatsukami working on itachi.
</p>
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<p>Except that Nagato was <i>behind</i> Itachi and was facing his back when he "sensed" the Koto starting its work. Nagato didn't see Itachi's eye bleed when he first sensed the genjutsu. He specifically says to himself something along the lines of, "The air pressure has suddenly changed!!" and then loudly calls out to Naruto, warning him that Itachi was about to use Amaterasu. It's only later when Itachi turns back to face Nagato and use Amaterasu on him. So no, you're wrong in this one. </p>
<p>Except that Nagato was <i>behind</i> Itachi and was facing his back when he "sensed" the Koto starting its work. Nagato didn't see Itachi's eye bleed when he first sensed the genjutsu. He specifically says to himself something along the lines of, "The air pressure has suddenly changed!!" and then loudly calls out to Naruto, warning him that Itachi was about to use Amaterasu. It's only later when Itachi turns back to face Nagato and use Amaterasu on him. So no, you're wrong in this one. </p>
(Edited by BakumatsuWarrior)
<div class="quote"><i>
<p>BakumatsuWarrior wrote:
@Seelentau: Perhaps Obito activated Izanagi the moment he saw Sasuke's eye change to Itachi's MS. There's almost always some time gap between moment when Itachi/Sasuke activates the technique and the moment when the black flames are actually manifested onto the victim. Sensors like Nagato could figure out Itachi activating the technique long before the black flames were actually produced.
</p><p>So I think Obito had sufficient time to activate Izanagi as the sequence of events gave him the necessary time. First, Sasuke's eye suddenly changes to Itachi's MS pattern. Then, blood starts flowing through the eye. And only <i>after</i> that do the black flames consume Obito. I think that's sufficient time for Obito to react with Izanagi before the flames hit him.
</p>
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<p>lol if he had enough time to activate izanagi, why not just use kamui? lol </p>
<p>lol if he had enough time to activate izanagi, why not just use kamui? lol </p>
(Edited by Sayian101)
<div class="quote"><i>
<p>Sayian101 wrote:
</p>
<div class="quote">
<p>BakumatsuWarrior wrote:
</p><p>Thekillman wrote:
Can't he use Kamui to phase away only his body, and not the flames?
</p><p>Itachi must've figured out the teleportation part of Kamui, but did obito show him the phasing part?
</p><p>
I don't think we've ever seen Obito phasing through an attack <i>after</i> the said attack made physical contact with his body. This is nicely illustrated when that Aburame bodyguard of Danzo infected Obito's right arm with his nanovirus. Had Obito possessed the ability to remove the infection by phasing the virus away, he would have done so. Instead he just cut off his arm and replaced it with another one. The only way Obito could phase away from the virus would be <i>before</i> the virus made contact with his flesh, i.e. when the Aburame guy was lunging towards Obito but had not yet made physical contact. </p><p>The same thing seems to apply to the Amaterasu incident. Obito's body had already come into contact with the black flames. There probably was no way he could phase through it, since Obito hasn't shown any of that feat in the manga so far. So the two options are Izanagi or replacement of his body part with magic Hashi cells. But considering the fact that Obito appeared in one piece without any signs of amputation so quickly, the only explanation that fits is Izanagi. </p> </i></div>
<p>Hmm, interesting you brought that up. little off topic but still relevant as far as kamui goes. what is your take on genjutsu? i remember reading some threads few weeks ago on similar topic about whether or not genjutsu can effect obito's eyes/chakra network when he's in intangible mode. some say it should still work others say it won't. unfortunately I can't remember if the thread said if he gets hit by gen before or after going kamui. </p><p>excuse my quote error. i have no idea how that crap works. </p> </div> <p>Sorry for not replying earlier. I think genjutsu <i>should</i> work on Obito, whether intangible or not. If the argument is that parts of Obito's chakra network is in the Kamui space while he's intangible, and that hence, his incomplete chakra network cannot be disrupted to put him under genjutsu, then we must take the argument to its logical conclusion and conclude that Obito can't move or do anything while intangible. Because parts of Obito's nervous system+chakra network+ body parts are in Kamui space. </p><p>Taken to its logical conclusion, that specific argument leads one to conclude that Obito should <i>die</i> the moment he sends parts of his body to other dimensions. That obviously is not true. So I think that if Obito can move and jump around while being intangible, then it follows that he should be vulnerable to genjutsu, provided that the chakra is disrupted at the part of the body that is in the real world and not in Kamui space. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>lol if he had enough time to activate izanagi, why not just use kamui? lol </p> </i></div>
<p>Logic Win for you :) I honestly don't know. Kishi hasn't fully clarified what Obito actually did during that incidence, so all we can do is speculate. </p>
I don't think we've ever seen Obito phasing through an attack <i>after</i> the said attack made physical contact with his body. This is nicely illustrated when that Aburame bodyguard of Danzo infected Obito's right arm with his nanovirus. Had Obito possessed the ability to remove the infection by phasing the virus away, he would have done so. Instead he just cut off his arm and replaced it with another one. The only way Obito could phase away from the virus would be <i>before</i> the virus made contact with his flesh, i.e. when the Aburame guy was lunging towards Obito but had not yet made physical contact. </p><p>The same thing seems to apply to the Amaterasu incident. Obito's body had already come into contact with the black flames. There probably was no way he could phase through it, since Obito hasn't shown any of that feat in the manga so far. So the two options are Izanagi or replacement of his body part with magic Hashi cells. But considering the fact that Obito appeared in one piece without any signs of amputation so quickly, the only explanation that fits is Izanagi. </p> </i></div>
<p>Hmm, interesting you brought that up. little off topic but still relevant as far as kamui goes. what is your take on genjutsu? i remember reading some threads few weeks ago on similar topic about whether or not genjutsu can effect obito's eyes/chakra network when he's in intangible mode. some say it should still work others say it won't. unfortunately I can't remember if the thread said if he gets hit by gen before or after going kamui. </p><p>excuse my quote error. i have no idea how that crap works. </p> </div> <p>Sorry for not replying earlier. I think genjutsu <i>should</i> work on Obito, whether intangible or not. If the argument is that parts of Obito's chakra network is in the Kamui space while he's intangible, and that hence, his incomplete chakra network cannot be disrupted to put him under genjutsu, then we must take the argument to its logical conclusion and conclude that Obito can't move or do anything while intangible. Because parts of Obito's nervous system+chakra network+ body parts are in Kamui space. </p><p>Taken to its logical conclusion, that specific argument leads one to conclude that Obito should <i>die</i> the moment he sends parts of his body to other dimensions. That obviously is not true. So I think that if Obito can move and jump around while being intangible, then it follows that he should be vulnerable to genjutsu, provided that the chakra is disrupted at the part of the body that is in the real world and not in Kamui space. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>lol if he had enough time to activate izanagi, why not just use kamui? lol </p> </i></div>
<p>Logic Win for you :) I honestly don't know. Kishi hasn't fully clarified what Obito actually did during that incidence, so all we can do is speculate. </p>
(Edited by BakumatsuWarrior)
<div class="quote"><i>
<p>Sayian101 wrote:
lol if he had enough time to activate izanagi, why not just use kamui? lol
</p>
</i></div>
<p>If he was aware of Itachi's powers, that means he had a 50/50 chance to guess Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi. If Genjutsu works even through kamui, it means he had to take a chance with Kamui or ensure success via Izanagi. </p><p>realistically though, he had no way to be sure of what actually was happening. All Obito saw was Sasuke's Sharingan activating. Assuming it was some sort of attack was a safe bet. Since Obito had enough Sharingan, he could activate Izanagi without it being a great loss and ensure survival or risk death attempting Kamui as it may not necessarily defend against it (say, if Genjutsu works through Kamui). </p><p>As to Obito's "secret", maybe it simply was that he wasn't truly one-eyed but in fact hid a regular sharingan behind his mask? </p>
<p>If he was aware of Itachi's powers, that means he had a 50/50 chance to guess Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi. If Genjutsu works even through kamui, it means he had to take a chance with Kamui or ensure success via Izanagi. </p><p>realistically though, he had no way to be sure of what actually was happening. All Obito saw was Sasuke's Sharingan activating. Assuming it was some sort of attack was a safe bet. Since Obito had enough Sharingan, he could activate Izanagi without it being a great loss and ensure survival or risk death attempting Kamui as it may not necessarily defend against it (say, if Genjutsu works through Kamui). </p><p>As to Obito's "secret", maybe it simply was that he wasn't truly one-eyed but in fact hid a regular sharingan behind his mask? </p>
(Edited by Thekillman)
<p>Itach already knows that obito has spare eyes... they slaughtered the uchiha clan together. The scret is that he isn't actually madara. We saw how shook obito got when kabuto revealed that he knew, so if itachi figured it out things would have went downhill for obito fast. @Baku, yea I will give you that , he can sense it, but he didn't have any enhanced precognition other than he doesn't haveto see itachi's eyes to know it might be coming, because he " sensed" it after itachi's eyes already started bleeding.
</p>
(Edited by MlGshinobi)