<p>There's no doubt that madara would not win by the versus debate figh logic(that is Character going straight ahead for the kill without any arroagnce or stupidity or need of a well thought plan included). Since in the narutoverse Madara wouldn't go straight for the kill and would first just underestimate both of the prodigy uchihas. And by that oppourtunity they might as well win. But it most likey 7/10 wins for ems madara. And what really is this "watered down" tsukuyomi talk? it is obivious that it was a normal one. But I guess you guys would go and say that there was no time manipulation. But by that you giys never thought that it might be because Sasuke broke through it? I mean the basis of that jutsu(If I'm right) is manipulating the person's mind into thinking it spend days instead of seconds, so why do you think if sasuke broke through the tsukuyomi then he should have felt the time manipulation? for all we know he might have but it wasn't shown for us?(I mean why would they show a whole eye plucking torture scene for two days worth?) Or it could be probably be the former suggestion I made. that Sasuke broke through the tsukuyomi and that's why he didn't felt the time manipulation which kinda seems obivious doesn't it? I mean it's like saying if a person stuck in ice, breaks out of it and people going by asking why he isn't still ice?(example like Naruto and sasuke escaping Kaguya's ice in her dimension) It's not like it's a insult to Itachi, it just made his words much more truer. And about this debate I say Madara loses without susanoo but wins mid diff with PS. What's "gg" by the way? </p>

<p>gg is good game.Sasuke only broke out of tsukuyomi thanks to the senjutsu(curse mark)from oro. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>Lorenzo.r.1st wrote: </p> not really. when hiruzen was revived, he didn't seem to be on his prime because of his appearance, but he most certainly was. u can tell by the way he fought in the war to the way he fought against orochi, when alive. </i></div>
<p>Hiruzen had chakra problems(lack of) which would be non existent in edo tensei since one has infinite refills as edo. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Lorenzo.r.1st wrote: that means that if madara was revived as an old dude, he would be just as powerful as the edo madara we have seen. </p> </i></div>
Seriously old doddering , Toothless madara would be stronger than the madara who raped The alliance. Even imagining the scenario makes me laugh. <div class="quote"><i> <p>Lorenzo.r.1st wrote: and kabuto made quite a few special edo, if u look at the akatsuki members, and the edo jinchuriki. from what I could tell, the only thing he thought of/about madara, either came from zetsu (white), orochi, scrolls in konoha, maybe other edos, and tobi. did any of these ever meet madara in his prime? exactly. and when madara die, he already had mokuton and rinne. but this brings the question: why didn't he have them as an edo? how did he know that he didn't have them, since he himself was surprised to see it in action? how did kabuto do it? and some other things. </p> </i></div>
Kabuto didn't use edo tensei on jinchuriki. Obito created them like how nagato created his pain jutsu using body corpse.Black-white zetsu know madara from his glory days especially given BZ was spying on all of the reincarnation.
Databook puts obito as madara's mirror image in terms of prowess. So madara's skill wasn't unknown to all of them, plus Onoki too knew abt his strength (even though no completely), Plus we know this for fact Madara didn't had wood release/Hashirama's cells or Rinnegan in his prime. It's clear rinnegan madara is stronger than EMS Madara.

Lmao when people say old madara that can barely walk is the same strength as edo madara it just makes me laugh.

<p>@Kakashi. Itachi himself said that only sasuke could do it after matsering his sharingan. why would he actually lie about that? there's no reason for him to lie about that to kakashi too. Their battle might have been a little panned by Itachi it doesn't really mean that Itachi wasn't trying his best to fight Sasuke. He wanted sasuke to get orochimaru out. so he had to make give his best to make sasuke sought help from orochi. I don't know where this watered down got lose. I mean the tsukuyomi's purpose was to give instant brain damage level genjutsu to it's target. But now theres a watered down version too? He never thought of using the watered down version against sasuke before the fight. Like when sasuke was a kid and then at the inn(and this time it lead to a need of the best doctor ever to save him) so why would he hold his tsukuyomi back this time? I'll say this again, Sasuke breaking out of tsukuyomi isn't a insult but something Itachi said which was true. and this definently wasn't with the help from the CM (since it was all inside the genjutsu and after he broke it the marks of the curse marks were not shown not a even a bit) So by that I'll say Sasuke broke through the tsukuyomi without it being watered down or by help of senjutsu. </p><p>About this fight...Well if shisui and Itachi probably could use Inzanagi, so with that I'll say they win? and didn't the writer make PS versions for Itachi and Shisui? Anyways Itachi and shisui wins with high difficulty from a arrogant madara? </p>

<p>Dude obtio himself said that itachi was holding back ENTIRE fight.Also CM dosent need to be shown,it is a mental fight after all. </p>

<p>@Kakashi. dude you're talking about the guy whp lied more than Itachi saying he was madara and stuff like that. It's called manipulating. What do you think would make sasuke more sadder? a itachi who fought sasuke almost to his death so he could get orochimaru out of him or a itachi who was said to backdown the whole fight in love for his brother? Obito wanted to manipulate him, and it worked. I'm not saying Itachi wanted to kill sasuke but that Itachi was giving his best to make sure orochimaru got out of him. I mean if that was true then why did he even use tsukuyomi against a kid sasuke or a 12year old sasuke? it doesn't make sense for him to use tsukuyomi at full power against a little boy who he loved the most? </p><p>The tsukuyomi was at full power it just might have been a few days or it just as well might have not affected him to due to braking out of it. I'll keep to the latter, since I think there's no point in breaking out of a Time manipulation genjutsu that causes brain damage, if he has to get effected by them. </p><p>Why CM shouldn't be shown? I don't get it? It has to be shown to know the user used it. It's like saying Jiraya used sage mode against Nagato at the first moment but it doesn't have to be shown. You can't just assume things like that without any character comfirming it or it being ever shown. And Black and White Zetsu were there watching the fight. Don't you think they would notice the curse marks and say he used curse mark of orochi or even anything. but they didn't. instead they only said that they were shocked by sasuke escaping tsukuyomi like that and then Black Zetsu saying Sasuke's visual power of sharingan surpassed itachi's visual power of MS, something like that. </p><p>So in my opinion the actual battle of Sasuke and Itachi where Itachi hold back was at after orochi got out and how he could have killed sasuke with the susanoo. that's all in my IMHO. </p>

<p>@Blaze
Tsukuyomi at full power can cause death. It's time manipulation which matters. If within 0.01 sec Itachi can show izumi her entire alternative life (which it could have been to her dying at ripe age of 80 years )which killed her. Now compare that to maybe kakashi or sasuke's torture of few days as in part-1. It's clear itachi can tone down Tsukuyomi.
Even if somehow madara survives, He won't survive with his brain intact especially given he has really sad memories of warring states.. </p>

<p>I hate extreme Itachi fanboys and normally, I'd give this fight to Madara 55/100. But the OP has one CRUCIAL condition: the MS has NO drawback in this fight. So EMS Madara is gonna have his ass kicked pretty easily. While we don't know much about Shisui's abilities apart from Koto and Body Flicker, we do know that Shisui is on MS Itachi's level, and we all know Itachi is extremely OP without MS drawbacks. While I prefer Madara over Itachi by miles, a healthy Itachi with no MS drawbacks can easily bring down EMS Madara with Shisui's help. </p>

HE used it cause he wanted to make sasuke hate him even more and get stronger.