<p>Pffffffft I was gonna have a good and proper debate with ya but I'm not touching that with a ten foot pole, believe what you want </p>

<p>@Reaper </p><p>I think that's best. Feats not only statements help us come to a decision in versus threads. Most of us on the wiki know that stats aren't that reliable due to contradictions to manga, the primary source. </p>

<p>@Asian&Rachin </p><p>So most of you like to make up opinions instead of going by facts? You can go by feats as much as you like, they're just as reliable as stats. Himawari's feat on Naruto is case and point. I've given you enough wiggle room, all I asked for was proof the statement is wrong, you can't give any. And that's fine by me. </p><p>And even IF Kakashi's increased to the point he could perform 2 additional Lightning Cutter's, so what? That isn't a major difference if any difference compared to part 1. So the point of the matter is, he hasn't really changed from Part 1 except for a little bit of reserves and major Sharingan capabilities. The point still remains. He is still kage caliber without Sharingan. He could still easily toss Naruto and Sasuke in their base, off a roof despite being nowhere seen and them within feet of each other with Sasuke's intent to kill, so their base are mere fodder for him. He has mastered Flicker to the point he could do it without a hand sign, and Sakura at Genin could dodge sound with it. And all Naruto and Sasuke have are boosted physical abilities if Naruto even has his full potential which was only released for his intense desire to bring Sasuke home which isn't the case any longer. I doubt even with the boost they are as fast as Gai, or a Lightning Bolt, or even sound. Kakashi has been stated or implied to be fast enough to compete with all. Kakashi wins because they're still kids, and he is still considered to be one of the strongest in the village. I doubt Naruto and Sasuke in part 1 were ever considered that. </p>

<p>@LoneNinja I think admire Kishi too much. Anyway, without the sharingan kakashi would be 70 percent blitzed. He wouldnt be able to react that much to sasuke and naruto's combat speed and/or travel speed. If sasuke and naruto were able to drag that fight for more than 5 minutes kakashi would be exhausted through the use of counter techniques involving water lightning and possibly earth. Every time rasengan and/or chidori is being used kakashi would probably freak out. Not to mention sasuke's bloodlust+genjutsu+versatile fire techniques and Narutos nine tails chakra that would send insane amount of bloodlust and a kurama chakra infused rasengan that would have city block level+ attack potency. And sasukes pseudo flight and narutos nine tail chakra control would reduce chances for kakashi to retreat and catch his breath for less than 15secs. And sasuke and narutos low-mid regeneration also cause problems during the fight. The only weapon for kakashi is his mind and that wouldnt work much at sasuke and narutos current level. By the way, i think naruto is probably at 65 percent low kage level and sasuke is 45 percent low kage level. So their combined efforts of both of them it would be more than possible to defeat kakashi who is 85 percent low kage level during the time of this battle. He would 15 percent mid kage level with the sharingan if he used the sharingan at the time of battle. But as he doesnt use it narutoXsasuke wins. 😤 </p>

<p>Damn OP, why don't you put Kakashi in a wheelchair while you're at it. </p>

<p>@LoneNinja </p><p>The difference between Karui's blunt force punches and Himawari's Gentle Fist is much different. If you don't know, the Gentle Fist users specialise in striking a target's chakra points to restrict them using ninjutsu or genjutsu for that matter. It also otherwise immobolise them if struck with a sufficient amount force to a critical part of the body. </p><p>The problem is you only talk about statements, and hardly go say anything about feats. You say we are downplaying Kakashi. No you are hyping him, considering that you deny that the Kakashi in Part I is no different in Part II, minus the Mangekyo. I've stated that Kakashi's battles with several Akatsuki members has given even more battle experience. His overall stamina increased, being capable using techniques much more than he did previously. He has even shown new techniques like Lightning Clone and Lightning Beast Running Jutsu. Like you need Kishi to state it to be true for everything despite the actions in the panels being able to speak for itself. </p><p>You try to downplay Naruto and Sasuke as if they are fresh out the Academy students. They have developed quite a bit by the VOTE. I mean even while still a beginner genin, Sasuke could force Kakashi to use both hands, something he complimented him for. Sasuke's has speed practically on par with Lee and his taijutsu increased more as well. Now imagine the boost too with the curse mark. Naruto was able to fight a partial jinchuriki. He can create hundreds of clones. That alone can keep Kakashi pre-occupied. I mean how is he really going to be able to deal with all of them and their collaborative attacks. Naruto in his nine-tales cloak showed very high speed. Naruto in this state is faster than base Guy. Kakashi might've battled Guy who is apparently faster and is a taijutsu master, but Kakashi also had the Sharingan to compensate. Kakashi doesn't have that luxury of using the Sharingan here. Kakashi has lower chakra reserves than them as well, and they have what it takes to prolong the battle. All you want to do spill he without the Sharingan he became Hokage, but don't actually look at feats. </p><p>You seem too invested on Kishi, always repeating the same, "Kishi's word is law" and trying dimiss things that were shown in the manga. Kishi has a times overexaggerated things and it is quite clear by what was shown in the manga. Like Kakashi having copied 1000 jutsu or cut a lightning bolt. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>LoneNinja wrote: </p><p>So most of you like to make up opinions instead of going by facts? You can go by feats as much as you like, they're just as reliable as stats. Himawari's feat on Naruto is case and point. I've given you enough wiggle room, all I asked for was proof the statement is wrong, you can't give any. And that's fine by me. </p> </i></div>
<p>A couple of things: </p><p>A) Feats = manga and manga trumps everything. If Kishi writes something new or retcons something, it would be in the manga. </p><p>B) Is Himawari's 'feat' canon now? Although I would have to add, the 'feat' in question is not combat, so please don't say it is. </p><p>C) Finally, I see this quite often in versus threads and it baffles me that users still don't know this. Statements are statements, they are not feats nor are they proof. A statement needs to be proven for all cases to become true. No one has to disprove a statement, you have to prove it for it to mean more. </p><p>As for this thread, Kakashi without Sharingan limits him quite a bit. More importantly, it limits his core fighting style. Which makes this thread quite unfair and one sided. Coupled with the fact that Part 1 Sharingan-less Kakashi doesn't exist, I don't see the point to this thread. </p>

<p>@Raichin </p><p>And the difference between Neji's and Himawari's Gentle Fist minus Neji's obvious superiority? </p><p>I'd also like to add that it's mind blowing you think CM2 makes someone Jonin Level at all when mere Genin took on CM2 and came out on top. Or that you downplay Kakashi and say go by feats only when he's only had two real fights, Zabuza and Itachi, both which could kill CM2 Sasuke with their abilities. By your method Sakura is better than Kakashi cause even she has more feats. So your method just doesn't work. A statement is just as right as a feat. It is right until proven wrong. And you have not proven it wrong. You just keep saying feats or it's not true. Like, lol. Are you the writer? Who are you to say that Kishimoto's statements are bull? No. I'll just use your logic against you, give me feats that prove Sasuke is Jonin level. Or Naruto. P.s. Two extra Raikiri's aren't a massive boost, quit exaggerating two extra usages. </p><p>@Ninja of War </p><p>A) There is no feat to discredit the statement, so I don't see your point. </p><p>B) It is indeed Canon the moment Kishmoto authored it in the "The Day Naruto Became Hokage" in Zai No Sho. And it is indeed a feat since Naruto took her seriously since he sensed the Killing Intent. It's not like he thought she was playing around. The point of the matter is, she one hitted him, but he as a kid could survive multiple hits from Neji. This proves that feats can be as unreliable and can contradict each other. Just like with Toneri's and Shin's sword attacks, one that can cut the moon couldn't pierce him, but an ordinary sword could. </p><p>C) I have to disagree with you. If it comes from the author it's right until proven wrong. The writer exceeds anyone's belief or word. The writer does not have to prove himself, he made the series. It baffles me that you or anyone thinks you have a say over the writer and say he is wrong until proven right. No, he is right until proven wrong, cause again, this is his story. He makes the rules. Everything from the moon in the sky, to the grass in the fields. He made it and it belongs to him. He made these feats that you abide by. So his statements are just as reliable as anything else given by him. Because it all comes from the same person. It's your job to prove him wrong, not mine to prove him right. No one has the right to nitpick his series and choose what to believe is true and it to be fact. </p><p>I agree with your last statement. </p>

<p>@LoneNinja </p><p>1. Please remember that Himiwari caught Naruto off guard so please don't make a big deal about it. </p><p>2. Lets be clear,I am not saying that at the time Naruto and Sasuke should be jonin, but they have prowess comparable to that of jonin. It takes more than power to be jonin. </p><p>3. I'm not downplaying Kakashi. You bring up his battle against Zabuza and Itachi as if didn't rely on the Sharingan in them. Something he won't be able to use against characters he definitely would need to use it against with them in their modes. </p><p>4. Don't make me laugh. You know that's not what I mean. More feats doesn't mean your better than those who have less. Quality or quantity fits this case. I never denied that statements aren't as reliable as feats. </p><p>5. The difference is that you try to use statements to overpower plan out feats for some reason as if the manga is just there for Kishi to state things and not show things. </p><p>6. It's still growth, even if he increased the amount of times he can use Lightning Cutter by 2. You seem to forget that Kakashi could perform the Kamui much more than he did in beginning of Part II. He also displayed more techniques as well. </p><p>This is exactly why I can't debate with you. Despite all the information we throw at you, you don't want to listen and is too stuck on he said this and because he didn't say this, means it's not true despite the manga showing it. Like I said believe what you want. Manga is the primary source and statements is not all it cracks up to be. Feats are, not matter if they contradict other feats or not. Writers are allowed to make mistakes. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>Namikazenaruto9 wrote: 1000 years of death is the only jutsu Kakashi is allowed to use against Curse Seal Sasuke and One-Tail Naruto? Right... </p> </i></div>
<p>no kakashi can use any jutsu that: </p>

                                  Does not require the use of sharingan
                                  he learned before episode 4