<div class="quote"><i> <p>LoneNinja wrote: </p><p>So most of you like to make up opinions instead of going by facts? You can go by feats as much as you like, they're just as reliable as stats. Himawari's feat on Naruto is case and point. I've given you enough wiggle room, all I asked for was proof the statement is wrong, you can't give any. And that's fine by me. </p> </i></div>
<p>A couple of things: </p><p>A) Feats = manga and manga trumps everything. If Kishi writes something new or retcons something, it would be in the manga. </p><p>B) Is Himawari's 'feat' canon now? Although I would have to add, the 'feat' in question is not combat, so please don't say it is. </p><p>C) Finally, I see this quite often in versus threads and it baffles me that users still don't know this. Statements are statements, they are not feats nor are they proof. A statement needs to be proven for all cases to become true. No one has to disprove a statement, you have to prove it for it to mean more. </p><p>As for this thread, Kakashi without Sharingan limits him quite a bit. More importantly, it limits his core fighting style. Which makes this thread quite unfair and one sided. Coupled with the fact that Part 1 Sharingan-less Kakashi doesn't exist, I don't see the point to this thread. </p>

<p>@Raichin </p><p>And the difference between Neji's and Himawari's Gentle Fist minus Neji's obvious superiority? </p><p>I'd also like to add that it's mind blowing you think CM2 makes someone Jonin Level at all when mere Genin took on CM2 and came out on top. Or that you downplay Kakashi and say go by feats only when he's only had two real fights, Zabuza and Itachi, both which could kill CM2 Sasuke with their abilities. By your method Sakura is better than Kakashi cause even she has more feats. So your method just doesn't work. A statement is just as right as a feat. It is right until proven wrong. And you have not proven it wrong. You just keep saying feats or it's not true. Like, lol. Are you the writer? Who are you to say that Kishimoto's statements are bull? No. I'll just use your logic against you, give me feats that prove Sasuke is Jonin level. Or Naruto. P.s. Two extra Raikiri's aren't a massive boost, quit exaggerating two extra usages. </p><p>@Ninja of War </p><p>A) There is no feat to discredit the statement, so I don't see your point. </p><p>B) It is indeed Canon the moment Kishmoto authored it in the "The Day Naruto Became Hokage" in Zai No Sho. And it is indeed a feat since Naruto took her seriously since he sensed the Killing Intent. It's not like he thought she was playing around. The point of the matter is, she one hitted him, but he as a kid could survive multiple hits from Neji. This proves that feats can be as unreliable and can contradict each other. Just like with Toneri's and Shin's sword attacks, one that can cut the moon couldn't pierce him, but an ordinary sword could. </p><p>C) I have to disagree with you. If it comes from the author it's right until proven wrong. The writer exceeds anyone's belief or word. The writer does not have to prove himself, he made the series. It baffles me that you or anyone thinks you have a say over the writer and say he is wrong until proven right. No, he is right until proven wrong, cause again, this is his story. He makes the rules. Everything from the moon in the sky, to the grass in the fields. He made it and it belongs to him. He made these feats that you abide by. So his statements are just as reliable as anything else given by him. Because it all comes from the same person. It's your job to prove him wrong, not mine to prove him right. No one has the right to nitpick his series and choose what to believe is true and it to be fact. </p><p>I agree with your last statement. </p>

<p>@LoneNinja </p><p>1. Please remember that Himiwari caught Naruto off guard so please don't make a big deal about it. </p><p>2. Lets be clear,I am not saying that at the time Naruto and Sasuke should be jonin, but they have prowess comparable to that of jonin. It takes more than power to be jonin. </p><p>3. I'm not downplaying Kakashi. You bring up his battle against Zabuza and Itachi as if didn't rely on the Sharingan in them. Something he won't be able to use against characters he definitely would need to use it against with them in their modes. </p><p>4. Don't make me laugh. You know that's not what I mean. More feats doesn't mean your better than those who have less. Quality or quantity fits this case. I never denied that statements aren't as reliable as feats. </p><p>5. The difference is that you try to use statements to overpower plan out feats for some reason as if the manga is just there for Kishi to state things and not show things. </p><p>6. It's still growth, even if he increased the amount of times he can use Lightning Cutter by 2. You seem to forget that Kakashi could perform the Kamui much more than he did in beginning of Part II. He also displayed more techniques as well. </p><p>This is exactly why I can't debate with you. Despite all the information we throw at you, you don't want to listen and is too stuck on he said this and because he didn't say this, means it's not true despite the manga showing it. Like I said believe what you want. Manga is the primary source and statements is not all it cracks up to be. Feats are, not matter if they contradict other feats or not. Writers are allowed to make mistakes. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>Namikazenaruto9 wrote: 1000 years of death is the only jutsu Kakashi is allowed to use against Curse Seal Sasuke and One-Tail Naruto? Right... </p> </i></div>
<p>no kakashi can use any jutsu that: </p>

                                  Does not require the use of sharingan
                                  he learned before episode 4

<div class="quote"><i> <p>Vinuth123 wrote: </p> <div class="quote"> <p>Namikazenaruto9 wrote: 1000 years of death is the only jutsu Kakashi is allowed to use against Curse Seal Sasuke and One-Tail Naruto? Right... </p> </i></div>
<p>no kakashi can use any jutsu that: </p>

                                  Does not require the use of sharingan
                                  he learned before episode 4

</div>Kakashi is as he was during the FIRST bell test.
Pretty sure that's just 1000 year of death, Taijutsu and Genjutsu. With Sharingan out, he is gonna lose.

<p>@LoneNinja </p><p>A) Manga trumps everything, don't you agree? </p><p>B) I read the panel and Naruto didn't take her seriously, he was more concerned about the ceremony and only thought his kids were annoying each other. Also, it's not combat, so please don't say or imply that it is. </p><p>C) I see where you are confused. Character statements =/= author statements. Yes, character statements form part of the author's story and character arc. Character statements however, are from the point of view of the character or situation in question. It is not automatically an author's statement. So my point stands there. Whereas manga feats are indeed author approved feats. </p><p>P.S. I'm not even sure what statement you are referring to with regards to Kakashi lol. Please post it again. </p>

<p>Kakashi is as he was during the first bell test? So he can only do Kawarimi, Narakumi, and Shinju Zanshu? Great thread (sarcasm). </p>

kakashi could use chidori way before the first bell test.

<p>^No sharingan == no chidori. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>Namikazenaruto9 wrote: </p> <div class="quote"> <p>Vinuth123 wrote: </p> <div class="quote"> <p>Namikazenaruto9 wrote: 1000 years of death is the only jutsu Kakashi is allowed to use against Curse Seal Sasuke and One-Tail Naruto? Right... </p> </i></div>
<p>no kakashi can use any jutsu that: </p>

                                  Does not require the use of sharingan
                                  he learned before episode 4

</div>Kakashi is as he was during the FIRST bell test.
Pretty sure that's just 1000 year of death, Taijutsu and Genjutsu. With Sharingan out, he is gonna lose. </div> <p>He COULD use other jutsu, but he was going easy on team 7 that is why he only used 1000 year of death, Taijutsu and Genjutsu, here both sides have killing intent so he will use other jutsu. </p>