<p>@Jason </p><p>first things first... </p><p>change the description up there. you are the OP and even though i have never made a thread of my own i am guessing that changes can be made. </p><p>if you dont do so than don't debate with Sasuke using Susanoo Arrows. he could only make skeletal Susanoo in his fight against Kage. until you dont make that change it will be assumed that Sasuke is from the Kage fight and all of your argument using his skills from later on is null and void </p><p>
</p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>It's Not Johnny wrote: </p><p>Don't mean to get in the way of you guys debating, </p><p>And Nashikeine, I disagree with Itachi barely being able to use the MS. Even after using Tsukuyomi twice and Amaterasu once, Itachi never showed insane recoil. He was panting heavily, yes, but it doesn't mean it was his absolute limit. Him retreating could be defined as him not wanting to harm the Leaf Village because of his secret mission. Either that, or Itachi's powers got retconned because Itachi explained that he wanted to wait for "Amaterasu" to turn to "Tsukuyomi" or something like that, implying that he couldn't use both at the same time, which doesn't make sense. And I also have some things listed in my other comment in regards to Obito with his MS. I think you'll find it interesting. As for matching up the characers, that's really all we can do because an entire team battle would be pretty chaotic and hard to tell what would happen. </p> </i></div>
<p>feel free to get in. </p><p>I was just trying to get an idea of how much of use Itachi could make of his MS. it was clear that he used more of it during Sasuke fight so i agree that he has more uses. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: </p><p>Yeah....but i was referring to Itachi and his chakra, you said that's how powerful totsuka is,the guy needs susanoo to use totsuka, and it's amazing he maintained it in such a state. Nah his eyes were still mangekyou after using those techs, after he tanked kirin that's when his ms faded. And concerning the weapons, he was shown to use yata mirrior in stage 2 humanoid susanoo, and in the anime he was shown to use a mini version of the totsuka blade.it was shown different in the manga. susanoo then weapons....in the end itachi still gets the credit, not totsuka. </p> </i></div>
<p>I specifically said the manga didnt i. cannon is manga. if manga portrays somethings it is the first and foremost fact. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: </p><p>Wasn't it kinda poor? besides Minato won't be constantly looking out for these guys like they're rin or obito, they're capable of battling. </p> </i></div>
<p>read the start of the post. Sasuke cannot use SUsanoo Arrow. change the thread and we will talk. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: With ms, he conquered clans....and was feared, he still fought hashirama with ms. Anyways ignore that. </p> </i></div>
<p>yep. ignoring it. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: </p><p>Well kinda, he showed better against Juubi Obito, analysing and deducing the way The TSB works. Now who on team uchiha won't accomplish that? maybe except for obito....countering guruguru's tech's was kinda an obvious move since he possesed all 5 releases as well. </p> </i></div>
<p>i showed feats, while there is nothing for others other than statements. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: </p><p>Yea in the anime it was shown that he saw the seal that was placed on one of the many kunais tobirama threw at izuna after they clashed their fire and water release tech. Were'nt they the top dudes because they possesed mangekyou? Well he was'nt good at genjutsu, tobirama and him made eye contact but he still failed to place the guy under genjutsu, if it was shisui or Itachi that would've been RIP tobirama. so that's a hint of izuna's poor mastery of the ms. </p> </i></div>
<p>so just because Izuna was not good with Genjutsu means he was weak. wow. </p><p>and you say he noticed the seal and yet couldnt react was not a proof that FTG is unavoidable for Sharingan users. a mature Sharingan, which he definitely possessed sees people before they make their move and see through fast moments. you are just proving my point. and Minato was better at FTG than Tobirama. </p><p>
</p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Minato's opponent at that time was AY and not BEE, and also there is no way that bee would've known that seal was placed on gyuki's tentacle also he would'nt have suggested an attack coming at him since they already deduced that Minato requires the marked kunais to teleport (thats what they thought only) and no kunai was around bee. </p> </i></div>
<p>and i am saying B outsmarted him. he believed in his instincts and got the better of Minato. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: </p><p>They dont know about his abilities, that doesnt mean they dont know who he is. To put it simply itachi and kisame knew about Jiraiya's title as sannin, but did they have any idea about his jutsus? kisame was probably just scared because of all the rumors....just like madara, no know really knew what he was capable of but yet feared him blindly. And dude that's totally valid,him changing his stance will definitely raise suspicion. Itachi crouched down, started weaving signs but sasuke interrupted him by throwing the shadow shuriken at him.....see he prevented the attack without knowing what the hell it is. Now jiraiya being in that stance will be like telling the uchiha's <i>hey attack me</i> </p> </i></div>
<p>SO they know Jiraiya is the Legendary Sannin who has fought in war and has a reputation of being TOade Sage, but somehow they wont know of him being able to use Toads in battle, especially when all in opposition are Konoha shinobi and three of them were borm after the fame that Jiriaya recived. </p><p>i get it for SM, but dont even say so about his non SM skills. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: </p><p>Madara was sure of himself then, him being an edo, possessing the rinnegan and wood release...who would be scared and not take things lightly? Amaterasu slaps Hiruzen who is less mobile. </p> </i></div>
<p>tell that to Madara who confronted Muu and Ohnoki when he was alive. </p><p>Sasuke all tired dodged 2 Amaterasu from Itachi in his fight and he didnt use some otherworldly jutsu to do so. he simply ran from where Itachi's sight was pointed at. even the 3 only clipped his wings. So, somehow the professor cannot devise a plan especially knowing of Amaterasu to avoid it. </p>

<p>Nashikeine wrote: </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>change the description up there. you are the OP and even though i have never made a thread of my own i am guessing that changes can be made. if you dont do so than don't debate with Sasuke using Susanoo Arrows. he could only make skeletal Susanoo in his fight against Kage. until you dont make that change it will be assumed that Sasuke is from the Kage fight and all of your argument using his skills from later on is null and void </p> </i></div>
<p>By saying the sasuke that fought the 5 kage i was referring to his age range and not the abilities he used in that fight and besides the stage 2 susanoo did reside in his eyes didnt it? ;_; </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Nashikeine wrote: I specifically said the manga didnt i. cannon is manga. if manga portrays somethings it is the first and foremost fact. </p> </i></div>
<p>Come on man you're not thinking it through....no itachi no totsuka....simple as that xd </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Well kinda, he showed better against Juubi Obito, analysing and deducing the way The TSB works. Now who on team uchiha won't accomplish that? maybe except for obito....countering guruguru's tech's was kinda an obvious move since he possesed all 5 releases as well. </p> </i></div>
<div class="quote"><i> <p>Nashikeine wrote: i showed feats, while there is nothing for others other than statements. </p> </i></div>
<p>Itachi and Madara's planning ahead covers that. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Yea in the anime it was shown that he saw the seal that was placed on one of the many kunais tobirama threw at izuna after they clashed their fire and water release tech. Were'nt they the top dudes because they possesed mangekyou? Well he was'nt good at genjutsu, tobirama and him made eye contact but he still failed to place the guy under genjutsu, if it was shisui or Itachi that would've been RIP tobirama. so that's a hint of izuna's poor mastery of the ms. </p> </i></div>
<div class="quote"><i> <p>Nashikeine wrote: so just because Izuna was not good with Genjutsu means he was weak. wow. and you say he noticed the seal and yet couldnt react was not a proof that FTG is unavoidable for Sharingan users. a mature Sharingan, which he definitely possessed sees people before they make their move and see through fast moments. you are just proving my point. and Minato was better at FTG than Tobirama. </p> </i></div>
<p>That's an example,you just assumed he is good at it, and that example kinda doubts you. There were kunai's floating around all he had to do was grab one and counter the sword. rip reaction time. So this is kinda strengthing my point abt him being a poor user of the sharingan...and bee reacting to it still stands and these guys are all skilled bishes with enhaced perception. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: They dont know about his abilities, that doesnt mean they dont know who he is. To put it simply itachi and kisame knew about Jiraiya's title as sannin, but did they have any idea about his jutsus? kisame was probably just scared because of all the rumors....just like madara, no know really knew what he was capable of but yet feared him blindly. And dude that's totally valid,him changing his stance will definitely raise suspicion. Itachi crouched down, started weaving signs but sasuke interrupted him by throwing the shadow shuriken at him.....see he prevented the attack without knowing what the hell it is. Now jiraiya being in that stance will be like telling the uchiha's <i>hey attack me</i> </p> </i></div>
<div class="quote"><i> <p>Nashikeine wrote: SO they know Jiraiya is the Legendary Sannin who has fought in war and has a reputation of being TOade Sage, but somehow they wont know of him being able to use Toads in battle, especially when all in opposition are Konoha shinobi and three of them were borm after the fame that Jiriaya recived. i get it for SM, but dont even say so about his non SM skills. </p> </i></div>
<p>Just a condition of this battle...... </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Madara was sure of himself then, him being an edo, possessing the rinnegan and wood release...who would be scared and not take things lightly? Amaterasu slaps Hiruzen who is less mobile. </p> </i></div>
<div class="quote"><i> <p>Nashikeine wrote: tell that to Madara who confronted Muu and Ohnoki when he was alive. </p> </i></div>
<p>Hype, that's all, those two would've definitely end Madara if they had fought. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Nashikeine wrote: Sasuke all tired dodged 2 Amaterasu from Itachi in his fight and he didnt use some otherworldly jutsu to do so. he simply ran from where Itachi's sight was pointed at. even the 3 only clipped his wings. So, somehow the professor cannot devise a plan especially knowing of Amaterasu to avoid it. </p> </i></div>
<p>Yea the same sasuke who had on the 3 tomoe sharingan which was enhance by senjutsu chakra. I don't see how it's comparable to a slowpoke...hiruzen. </p><p>
</p><p>
PSSt the fight... </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: By saying the sasuke that fought the 5 kage i was referring to his age range and not the abilities he used in that fight and besides the stage 2 susanoo did reside in his eyes didnt it? ;_; </p> </i></div>
<p>in that sense let us take Sasuke from the war arc too, because barely a month has passed by since the Kage Summit arc. </p><p>be Specific of what level you want the characters to be. and just because he had those powers in his eyes, the fact that he hadnt unlocked it yet means he could not use it. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Nashikeine wrote: Come on man you're not thinking it through....no itachi no totsuka....simple as that xd </p> </i></div>
<p>Wrong. </p><p>Totsuka is a weapon. it can be used by anyone. itachi just happened to be the one to find it and use it. the power of the blade has nothing to with Itachi's power. he just used it. </p><p>and you did not say anything about the MS being inactive as clearly shown in the manga. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Itachi and Madara's planning ahead covers that. </p> </i></div>
<p>and so can Team Minato plan ahead. actually they would do a better job because they have almost all info on their opponents. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: </p><p>That's an example,you just assumed he is good at it, and that example kinda doubts you. There were kunai's floating around all he had to do was grab one and counter the sword. rip reaction time. So this is kinda strengthing my point abt him being a poor user of the sharingan...and bee reacting to it still stands and these guys are all skilled bishes with enhaced perception. </p> </i></div>
<p>Neither of us are gooing to agree here. so lets agree to disagree. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Just a condition of this battle...... </p> </i></div>
<p>and you set the conditions. so at least stay true to them, at least you. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Hype, that's all, those two would've definitely end Madara if they had fought. </p> </i></div>
<p>so MUU and OHNOKI could defeat EMS Madara. wow. yet they didnt even try. </p><p>You are completely ignoring that it is Madara's nature to not give much importance to those that he doesnot feel worthy. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Yea the same sasuke who had on the 3 tomoe sharingan which was enhance by senjutsu chakra. I don't see how it's comparable to a slowpoke...hiruzen. </p> </i></div>
<p>Hiruzen by no means is a slowpoke. he is quite fast, but above all his jutsu using skill is really top notch. </p><p>i am not saying that Hiruzen has the advantage like Sharingan, but he has info on Amaterasu and the signs of it being used are quite obvious. Hiruzen is quick to use jutsu on counter as he has shown time and again. all he has to do is erect an earth wall of all things and Amaterasu is blocked. </p>

<p>Nashikeine wrote: </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: By saying the sasuke that fought the 5 kage i was referring to his age range and not the abilities he used in that fight and besides the stage 2 susanoo did reside in his eyes didnt it? ;_; </p> </i></div>
<div class="quote"><i> <p>Nashikeine wrote: in that sense let us take Sasuke from the war arc too, because barely a month has passed by since the Kage Summit arc. be Specific of what level you want the characters to be. and just because he had those powers in his eyes, the fact that he hadnt unlocked it yet means he could not use it. </p> </i></div>
<p>Again i was referring to his age range.. I also said Hokage Minato, that doesnt mean Minato would be stamping papers and giving orders. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Nashikeine wrote: Wrong. Totsuka is a weapon. it can be used by anyone. itachi just happened to be the one to find it and use it. the power of the blade has nothing to with Itachi's power. he just used it. and you did not say anything about the MS being inactive as clearly shown in the manga. </p> </i></div>
<p>WOW, this is interesting..you say so because orochimaru was searching for it? and how does one add a spirit weapon onto one's will, what sealing jutsu does itachi know to do so? The sword of nunoboko is also a weapon, but can only be used by transforming the TSB into such, the same with Itachi..except his susanoo is special? Again no itachi, no totsuak...how can you give totsuka credit when it's needs a weilder in ordeer to use it? </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Itachi and Madara's planning ahead covers that. </p> </i></div>
<div class="quote"><i> <p>Nashikeine wrote: and so can Team Minato plan ahead. actually they would do a better job because they have almost all info on their opponents. </p> </i></div>
<p>Thought we were talking about hiruzen ;_; </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: That's an example,you just assumed he is good at it, and that example kinda doubts you. There were kunai's floating around all he had to do was grab one and counter the sword. rip reaction time. So this is kinda strengthing my point abt him being a poor user of the sharingan...and bee reacting to it still stands and these guys are all skilled bishes with enhaced perception. </p> </i></div>
<div class="quote"><i> <p>Nashikeine wrote: Neither of us are gooing to agree here. so lets agree to disagree. </p> </i></div>
<p>Could've just said you're wrong, i provided more facts ;_o </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Just a condition of this battle...... </p> </i></div>
<div class="quote"><i> <p>Nashikeine wrote: and you set the conditions. so at least stay true to them, at least you. </p> </i></div>
<p>'-'7 (post edited btw) </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Hype, that's all, those two would've definitely end Madara if they had fought. </p> </i></div>
<div class="quote"><i> <p>Nashikeine wrote: so MUU and OHNOKI could defeat EMS Madara. wow. yet they didnt even try. You are completely ignoring that it is Madara's nature to not give much importance to those that he doesnot feel worthy. </p> </i></div>
<p>Alive madara vs TWO particle style users? they didnt try, because of plot, madara was important to the story, how would killing him help? ;_; </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Yea the same sasuke who had on the 3 tomoe sharingan which was enhance by senjutsu chakra. I don't see how it's comparable to a slowpoke...hiruzen. </p> </i></div>
<div class="quote"><i> <p>Nashikeine wrote: Hiruzen by no means is a slowpoke. he is quite fast, but above all his jutsu using skill is really top notch. i am not saying that Hiruzen has the advantage like Sharingan, but he has info on Amaterasu and the signs of it being used are quite obvious. Hiruzen is quick to use jutsu on counter as he has shown time and again. all he has to do is erect an earth wall of all things and Amaterasu is blocked. </p> </i></div>
<p>Mind stating atleast two speed feats of hiruzen... Amaterasu require's sign? besides flame control is a big deal here. To know if he's using amaterasu they have to look at the eyes to recognise the bleeding which is something they wont do '-' </p><p>
PSssSt the battle ;_; </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Again i was referring to his age range.. I also said Hokage Minato, that doesnt mean Minato would be stamping papers and giving orders. </p> </i></div>
<p>Just... i have no words here. </p><p>You set the level and you yourself jump around the power levels of characters. i have nothing more to say. </p><p>Sasuke can only use skeletal Susanoo and that is all that matters to this vs. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: </p><p>WOW, this is interesting..you say so because orochimaru was searching for it? and how does one add a spirit weapon onto one's will, what sealing jutsu does itachi know to do so? The sword of nunoboko is also a weapon, but can only be used by transforming the TSB into such, the same with Itachi..except his susanoo is special? Again no itachi, no totsuak...how can you give totsuka credit when it's needs a weilder in ordeer to use it? </p> </i></div>
<p>the spirit weapon can be sealed inside the body like how biju are sealed or how Orochimaru actually has his Kusanagi stored inside his body. </p><p>it was clearly stated that Itachi found the sword and mirror. his Susanoo isnt special. it didnt come equiped with them. </p><p>how can anyone use them without Susanoo if you are wondering... just remember that Naruto uses Rasegan which is pure chakra and holds it in his palm, Sasuke can use CHidori to shape into a sword and use it as a real sword even when it is lightning which cannot be held. these are superhumans that defy logic. </p><p>it was Totsuka Blades abilities that sealed Orochimaru. Itachi just wielded, nothing more nothing less. </p><p>
</p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Thought we were talking about hiruzen ;_; </p> </i></div>
<p>He is a part of Team Minato. so he is part of thinking up the plan up ahead. jeez </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Could've just said you're wrong, i provided more facts ;_o </p> </i></div>
<p>you did not prove me wrong. you did not even provide facts. you provided the scene, which by the way shows that Izuna could not react to FTG. but despite of seeing the obvious you decide to come up with a theory that Izuna is weak shinobi. even when it was stated that he and Madara were top dogs in the Uchiha clan in the era. </p><p>the discussion was about Sharingan wielders not being able to counter FTG. if one of the top dogs from the war era couldnot stand upto FTG then there is no way anyone is going especially an improved and better one with Minato. </p><p>
</p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: </p><p>'-'7 (post edited btw) </p> </i></div>
<p>the main thread isnt. they still are written to have no Knowledge on Jiriaya. </p><p>Let's keep the debate assuming that if you want to. </p><p>because if you dont than at this point it will be like you want the Uchiha team to have all the advantage and win in the end. </p><p>if it is i dont see any reason debating anymore. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Alive madara vs TWO particle style users? they didnt try, because of plot, madara was important to the story, how would killing him help? ;_; </p> </i></div>
<p>they were scared of him. and if you want to chalk it to plot than so be it. the fact is that Madara didnt take them seriously as he thought them beneath him and that is all that matters. </p><p>
</p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: </p><p>Mind stating atleast two speed feats of hiruzen... Amaterasu require's sign? besides flame control is a big deal here. To know if he's using amaterasu they have to look at the eyes to recognise the bleeding which is something they wont do '-' </p> </i></div>
<p>
Hiruzen arrived alongside the other Kage way before Sasuke on the battlefield in the war. or when Naruto was caught by the SHinju's branches and was having his chakra sucked the likes of Tobirama couldnt reach him yet Hiruzen did. </p><p>i also specifically said his counter skills with his jutsu. </p><p>the signs i mention arent hand signs but the bleeding eye. </p><p>indeed they can look into the eyes of their opponent. forgot what CHiyo said. all you need is a teammate to get you out of the Sharingan Genjutsu. and since they dont know of Tsukuyomi they really have no reason to fear the Uchiha </p>

<p>'-' </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Again i was referring to his age range.. I also said Hokage Minato, that doesnt mean Minato would be stamping papers and giving orders. </p> </i></div>
<div class="quote"><i> <p>Nashikeine wrote: Just... i have no words here. You set the level and you yourself jump around the power levels of characters. i have nothing more to say. Sasuke can only use skeletal Susanoo and that is all that matters to this vs. </p> </i></div>
<p>Omg ,-, sorry if i did something wrong, but sasuke's used susanoo, why would'nt he know about stage 2? i said <i>the sasuke that attacked the kage summit</i> i did'nt edit that btw, so the sasuke that attacked the summit is the same one that fought danzo. If you still disagree then Minato will be stamping papers here. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Nashikeine wrote: the spirit weapon can be sealed inside the body like how biju are sealed or how Orochimaru actually has his Kusanagi stored inside his body. it was clearly stated that Itachi found the sword and mirror. his Susanoo isnt special. it didnt come equiped with them. </p> </i></div>
<p>Yea that's true, but one, the beast were in physical form. All we know is the blades were spiritual. As for the <i>orochimaru searching for it</i> part he got that intel thanks to legend maybe a user before itachi once possessed them in his susanoo, just like Indra's amaterasu. And again what sealing jutsu does itachi know? And that wasn't made clear in manga, orochimaru just said <i>itachi you had it all along</i> meaning he was searching for something he could've never find because it was someone's else, and they had it from the get go. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Nashikeine wrote: how can anyone use them without Susanoo if you are wondering... just remember that Naruto uses Rasegan which is pure chakra and holds it in his palm, Sasuke can use CHidori to shape into a sword and use it as a real sword even when it is lightning which cannot be held. these are superhumans that defy logic. </p> </i></div>
<p>Bad example, kinda...you're basically saying itachi can use totsuka blade without even activating susanoo...so sasuke can weild his susanoo arrows with activating such, they can throw yasaka beads with susanoo..cool ;_; ..even naruto has a limit when it comes to logic. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Nashikeine wrote: it was Totsuka Blades abilities that sealed Orochimaru. Itachi just wielded, nothing more nothing less. </p> </i></div>
<p>What i said is itachi must be there to use it,,sheesh...imagine a dead itachi, can totsuka seal orochimaru by itself? hell no. simple as that ;_;. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Nashikeine wrote: He is a part of Team Minato. so he is part of thinking up the plan up ahead. jeez </p> </i></div>
<p>Nothing the uchihas cant do... </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Could've just said you're wrong, i provided more facts ;_o </p> </i></div>
<div class="quote"><i> <p>Nashikeine wrote: you did not prove me wrong. you did not even provide facts. you provided the scene, which by the way shows that Izuna could not react to FTG. but despite of seeing the obvious you decide to come up with a theory that Izuna is weak shinobi. even when it was stated that he and Madara were top dogs in the Uchiha clan in the era. the discussion was about Sharingan wielders not being able to counter FTG. if one of the top dogs from the war era couldnot stand upto FTG then there is no way anyone is going especially an improved and better one with Minato. </p> </i></div>
<p>so basically what's stated is true? then i guess itachi is really invincible, according to zetsu. You didn't provide anything dude..you just assumed he was because they said he was comparable to Mangekyou Madara, who at that time was exchanging swords with hashirama...... He failed to cast the genjutsu in time, lack of finess...he failed to react to FTG altough he saw it coming....lack of reaction time. And the uchiha's knowing about it makes it easier for them.......simple. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: '-'7 (post edited btw) </p> </i></div>
<div class="quote"><i> <p>Nashikeine wrote: the main thread isnt. they still are written to have no Knowledge on Jiriaya. </p> </i></div>
<p>I did'nt edit that part,it's about the uchiha's. Man i can't believe you, he changes stance and idles there for a while, who would'nt suspect that jiraiya is up to something?! These are all intelligent dudes....it's like you want the other team to win, besides this is probably the most obvious and simple-est deduction an uchiha can make. As i said up above, sasuke prevented itachi from completing his signs, so why would'nt he do so here? ;_; </p><p>
</p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Alive madara vs TWO particle style users? they didnt try, because of plot, madara was important to the story, how would killing him help? ;_; </p> </i></div>
<div class="quote"><i> <p>Nashikeine wrote: they were scared of him. and if you want to chalk it to plot than so be it. the fact is that Madara didnt take them seriously as he thought them beneath him and that is all that matters. </p> </i></div>
<p>They were scared of the plot ghost that were surrounding madara. Madara didn't take them seriously but went straight to susanoo? ;_; </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Mind stating atleast two speed feats of hiruzen... Amaterasu require's sign? besides flame control is a big deal here. To know if he's using amaterasu they have to look at the eyes to recognise the bleeding which is something they wont do '-' </p> <div class="quote"> <p>Nashikeine wrote: Hiruzen arrived alongside the other Kage way before Sasuke on the battlefield in the war. or when Naruto was caught by the SHinju's branches and was having his chakra sucked the likes of Tobirama couldnt reach him yet Hiruzen did. </p> </i></div>
<p>He arrived with tobirama, so does that mean Hiruzen's speed is on par with tobirama? interesting ;_; Team hokage except for minato all arrived together, Team sasuke all arrived together, not like it was a race either o.O He arrived there that doesnt mean he's fast, maybe he was just nearby? ;_; again you suggested he's faster than tobirama lol ._. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Nashikeine wrote: i also specifically said his counter skills with his jutsu. the signs i mention arent hand signs but the bleeding eye. indeed they can look into the eyes of their opponent. forgot what CHiyo said. all you need is a teammate to get you out of the Sharingan Genjutsu. and since they dont know of Tsukuyomi they really have no reason to fear the Uchiha </p> </i></div>
<p>Souka ;_; </p> The bleeding eye which they won't notice since they wont stare in the sharingan. Chiyo said so because it was four vs one...this is 4 vs 4.. that won't work..Besides if they did look genjutsu rips them...more dangerously if they looked in itachi's eyes, that'll be one down thanks to tsukuyomi.</div>

<p>@Jason of the Mangekyou I did forget about that, so I guess Sound Genjutsu won't help. I explained how Jiraiya will probably manage to enter SM. </p><p>That wasn't the Humanoid Susano'o. You can see it had a skeleton. His Humanoid Susano'o seems to have a robe and has no skeleton. </p><p>Jiraiya and Kakashi in base can still be debated. The only thing is that Jiraiya in base has no speed feats. However, if we go by hype, it certainly does seem that having the name of Legendary Sannin is greater than Kakashi's title. </p><p>True, but Jiraiya does have the Fire Sealing Scroll. It's impractical as a defense, but it can still be used. Jiraiya can counter Susano'o with Swamp of the Underworld. </p><p>Care to explain how Hiruzen and Minato destroy Obito and Madara? </p><p>Hiruzen as an old man was strong, but he alone certainly can't do much. Madara with the MS has no feats, but we do know that as a reanimation, he was effortlessly going through countless Shinobi in the Fourth Division with just Taijutsu while he only had the Three Tomoe Sharingan activated. He only brought out the MS once the Kage and Naruto jumped in. And during his fight with the Five Kage, his Skeletal Susano'o and Humanoid Susano'o (I'm assuming that MS Madara can use them since they're the earliest stages of the Susano'o) alone were causing trouble. It took Tobirama (who was relative to base Minato) to defeat MS Izuna, who was on par with MS Madara. Remember that this was Tobirama after fighting Izuna for entire years, so it took a while to finally defeat him. I don't think Minato and Hiruzen would defeat Obito and Madara easily, especially with their Susano'o and Kamui combined. </p><p>@Nashikeine Nah, I can't really get in now. This thread has a lot of text to read through, now that you guys are debating, that I can't be bothered with for right now. I'm just responding to the things you guys direct at me. </p>

<p>'-' </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>It's Not Johnny wrote: That wasn't the Humanoid Susano'o. You can see it had a skeleton. His Humanoid Susano'o seems to have a robe and has no skeleton. </p> </i></div>
<p>Woah my bad. That was definitely skeletal susanoo ;o; ._...in the opening post i stated <i>the sasuke that attacked the 5 kage summit</i> that would also include the sasuke that fought Danzo, so stage 2 susanoo is in the game o_o </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>It's Not Johnny wrote: Jiraiya and Kakashi in base can still be debated. The only thing is that Jiraiya in base has no speed feats. However, if we go by hype, it certainly does seem that having the name of Legendary Sannin is greater than Kakashi's title. </p> </i></div>
<p>Going by hype won't be fair, let's go with what we've seen and read...Kakashi>>Jiraiya (speed) </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>It's Not Johnny wrote: True, but Jiraiya does have the Fire Sealing Scroll. It's impractical as a defense, but it can still be used. Jiraiya can counter Susano'o with Swamp of the Underworld. </p> </i></div>
<p>If Jiraiya is caught with Amaterasu there isn't much he can do,especially using the scroll, he'll he covered in pain and besides that scroll needs alot of work, Jiraiya had to write a whole lot of formula's on it, then perform his seal...He would be dead already if caught. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>It's Not Johnny wrote: Care to explain how Hiruzen and Minato destroy Obito and Madara? </p> </i></div>
<p>Well considering his chakra pool he can maintain susanoo for a long while, and it's hard for either of Minato and especially Hiruzen to touch him. And him having knowledge on FTG here makes it worse....i'll say otherwise then. </p>

<p>@Jason of the Mangekyou Danzo left the Five Kage Summit though. The Summit was held in the Land of Iron. You can clearly see that Danzo and Sasuke fought in an area with no snow, so it wasn't the Land of Iron. </p><p>Okay, but Jiraiya certainly isn't slow in base. He was able to dodge hundreds of Konan's Paper Spears and drown her in Toad Oil before she could react. </p><p>True, but he wrote the formulas in just a panel in the Manga. And even then, we know Kakashi and Jiraiya are fighting together. The OP says they have knowledge on Amaterasu, so I don't see why Jiraiya wouldn't make the formulas as soon as the fight began. And nothing implies that he can't continuously use the seal, so if he gets the seal off, Amaterasu is pretty much a non factor unless if Itachi and Sasuke hit him before he's able to form the Hand Seal. If Jiraiya enters SM, his reactions and reflexes as well as sensing are greatly amplified, which can help him a lot against Amaterasu. </p>

<p>To be honest I can't really say this is one of those case where you can say so and so stomps. MS Madara has virtually no feats realistically, Obito would likely have to retool his fighting style as he can't spam Kamui and there are just so many factors that really doesn't make the outcome of this hypothetical a clear and cut case of who stomps. </p>