<div class="quote"><i> <p>Vladosaurus wrote: Ayy, Jesus...dude, even in the Manga Sasuke literally stated: (when he awakened the 3 tomoe sharingan) His movements that i couldn`t catch before...i can see them! </p><p>Which means that when he had 2 tomoe sharingan he was no able to see Naruto`s whole movements. So don`t bring me nonsense on how Gai in the 1st gate is faster than that.NO WHERE CLOSE. And everybody in the arena could follow Lee`s 5th gate movements, including the genins. The only time nobody could see them was when Lee first charged towards Gaara. and nobody could see they were above because of the dust...VOTE Naruto is much faster than 5th gate Lee. But honestly, Kakashi was sparring equally in taijutsu with Gai, who probably was using the first gates max and you are telling me that he could keep up with Sasuke who with 3 tomoes kept up with Kyuubi Naruto, who had movements ureadable by the 2 tomoe sharingan?Please... </p><p>And Rin and Obito were complete garbage in combat.Especially Rin.She was part 1 Sakura level of garbage yet she was a chunin. Obito was also an afraid cry baby when he was promoted to chunin. In Sasuke`s era things like that would have never happened. </p><p>Spare me the nonsense... </p> </i></div>
<p>that statement after awakening 3tomoe Sharingan was made after Sasuke dodged Naruto's first attack. it was more like now his body could even keep up with Naruto. if you read the next statement than you will know that Sasuke thinks that he probably got a boost from the CS to keep up with Naruto, but in reality it was his Sharingan's predictive ability. he could predict Naruto's next moment and dodge accordingly. the whole panels around that part was centred on that very aspect. so no, it was not that his eyes couldnt keep up, it was his body which didnt like with Lee and Sasuke befroe the exam began. his body kept up because he could predict the moves and dodge accordingly. </p><p>the genin could keep up. MAN. they could not even keep up when Lee removed the weights. choji has a statement about it. even Gaara at that point of fight was lacking in catching onto Lee's speed. the guy was looking back and Lee was already in front of him having sped through. in 4Gate no genin san Neji could see Lee. they only could see Gaara in the sky and not lee. there are character statements of that man. </p><p>Okay Gai at 1Gate cannot keep up with Kyubified Naruto, probably not in strenght. i say Gai can in speed. but even VOTE Sasuke couldnt. he needed 3tomoe Sharingan and its predictive ability to keep up. but this is CHUNIN EXAM SASUKE or so. </p><p>Rin and Obito were not garbage. they just dont have feats. they were part of a war where people die and all. dont shit on them just becuase they dont have feats. </p>

<p>I think youre overhyping gate 1 guy waaaaaaay too much. its proven that the kyuubi increases speed and power dramatically, and as his forms evolve , narutos physical parameters evolve, i think gate 1 gai wouldve have high diff to beat naruto kyuubi enhanced, and version 1 naruto would decimate </p>

<p>Sasuke with his 3 Tomoe could mostly fight Kyuubi Naruto. At least, until Naruto pulled out a Tail. </p><p>So Kakashi with 3 Tomoe could as well. Their speed is most likely comparable too; Kakashi specifically had to train Sasuke's speed up to even use Chidori. So Kakashi himself had to have been that fast at least. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>Kirito975 wrote: I think youre overhyping gate 1 guy waaaaaaay too much. its proven that the kyuubi increases speed and power dramatically, and as his forms evolve , narutos physical parameters evolve, i think gate 1 gai wouldve have high diff to beat naruto kyuubi enhanced, and version 1 naruto would decimate </p> </i></div>
<p>and i agree. </p><p>but the thing here is without the three tomoe SHaringan and CS2 boost even Sasuke would have been decimated by Kyubified Naruto. </p><p>the point is the 3tomoe SHaringan was the only saving grace for Sasuke. he couldnot keep up with Kyubified Naruto, as in he physically could not. the predictive ability helped him. and once Naruto was dodged a time or two he was more confused as to how Sasuke was dodging him and was hit a couple of times. the punch pushed him into the water, but it was more like gravity doing the work. the kick only landed him where he was so really no strenght behind it. </p><p>Yeah. i may be putting a Gate boost a bit over, but it is by facts. it is just that CS1 boost is really taken has a big boost which it is not. CS2 is the real big boost </p><p>ANd the fact that Kakashi also has 3 tomoe Sharingan nulifies Sasuke's advantage there </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>AsianReaper wrote: </p> <div class="quote"> <p>LaughingLyon wrote: How is experience going to play into this when sasuke has more notable fights at this point in his career ? Sasuke fought, haku , gaara, naruto,Oro,yoroi, and i could go on. </p> </i></div>
<p>Sasuke has way less experience; Kakashi was a war time Jonin, and an Anbu member/captain. You've only seen more Sasuke fights because he's one of the main characters. </p> </div> <p>I’ll take what I’ve seen from Sasuke as opposed to speculation over Kakashi and his “wartime experience “ . We have no idea how that went down and who he fought. Maybe his most of his experience was with Minato, THE most powerful Shinobi of his time which would be a major advantage and crucial to his survival. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Nashikeine wrote: </p> <div class="quote"> <p>BlazeRelease wrote: Sasuke. Sasuke's Three tomoe Sharingan allowed him to get by almost every movement from a Kurama cloaked Naruto, Kakashi can't exactly match Sasuke by speed nor can he get through Sasuke's reaction speed with the Sharingan. </p><p>So, Sasuke wins. </p> </i></div>
<p>Sasuke has three tomoe Sharingan... SO does Kakashi. </p><p>Kurama cloak Naruto was fast, but nowhere near fast as GateLee. just remember that Kakashi had a rivalry with Gai from back even before they were genin and Gai learnt Gate from his father early on. So for Kakashi to have an equal win-loss record means that he kept up with Gate Gai. </p><p>Kakashi can match Sasuke in speed, seeing that Kakashi invented Chidori which was based on speed alone. </p><p>So Sharigan gives Kakashi reaction time, he has speed and he kept up with faster opponent like Gai. </p><p>
</p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>LaughingLyon wrote: </p><p>How does Kakashi counter CS Sasuke? </p> </i></div>
<p>first of all it is only CS1 so the boost isnt as great as CS2. </p><p>the SOund 4 needed to go CS2 to tackle other Konoha jonin, to whom Kakashi is far superior. in no ways was Sasuke's CS1 or even CS2 for that matter stronger than their CS2. </p><p>by the teens Kakashi was already a Jonin and an ANBU. the guy freaking fought in a war against Jonin, Chunin and the likes. stood upto teams of enemy alone. </p><p>you seriously think CS1 Sasuke has a chance. wow </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>LaughingLyon wrote: Sasuke is faster, stronger, more durable, more powerful,and no sluch in the intelligence department. </p> </i></div>
<p>Kakashi is fast. he invented the CHidori a speed based attack. </p><p>Kakashi was fighting in a war which at times he was on battlefield for days. so durable with stamina. </p><p>Sasuke probably has more Chakra than Kakashi, is debabtable. </p><p>As Adults - Yes. As Kids - No </p><p>as a kid Sasuke could only use CHidori 2 times a day + 1 with CS1. </p><p>Kakashi in the Gaiden used Chidori 3 times. </p><p>SO kakashi as a child has more Chakra than Sasuke </p><p>Intelligence... Kakashi has time and again been said to be as smart as Shikamaru, the smartest character in the series, so Sasuke is actually at pure disadvantage here. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>LaughingLyon wrote: Kakashi doesn’t have the endurance to slug it out due to Sharingan drain with Sasuke nor does he have the skillset to put down Sasuke early . </p> </i></div>
<p>Kakashi was fighting in a war. he has endurance. </p><p>even if you say he has less Chakra than Sasuke, you are forgetting that this is Sasuke from part 1 who could only use CHidori twice a day and plus one if he used CS1. BUT if you remember the Gaiden than Kakashi used Chidori thrice in a day, without a boost so he could do more means more Chakra. </p><p>
Skillset - Kakashi has CHidori, which was mastered because he failed to apply lightning nature to Rasengan. so he has Rasengan. he was by the time famous for his copy abilities. so he copied many jutsu. </p><p>
</p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>LaughingLyon wrote: How is experience going to play into this when sasuke has more notable fights at this point in his career ? Sasuke fought, haku , gaara, naruto,Oro,yoroi, and i could go on. </p> </i></div>
<p>Haku thrashed Sasuke. even with Sharingan unlocked all he could do was trace the atttack and nothing else. </p><p>Gaara was thrashing Sasuke if he wasnt going mad. just remember the battle that Naruto had with Gaara just moments later and you will know how weak Sasuke was in comparision </p><p>Oro was taking it easy. </p><p>Yoroi is a pathetic shinobi. </p><p>only his fight against Naruto is noteworthy. but by this he was like given drug like booosts with the black fog thing and later CS1 and CS2. </p> </div> <p>Kakashi doesn’t have the feats to fight this Sasuke and everyone in this thread knows this, hence the overhyping of his rank( which has always been an indicator of leadership and maturity not power) and this Sasuke lowball. </p><p>Kakashi at this point hasn’t showcased the speed to match base CE Sasuke let alone the amp he gets from CS. Its skewed in Sasuke’s favor already and no ammount of downplay on CS is going to change that. </p><p>Kakashi has to deal with the constant drain of a sharingan. In PT one after his duel with Zabuza he fainted and this was as an adult when he logically has higher chakra and stamina . He will loose in a endurance match against Sasuke so his best chance is to try to end the fight in the early-mid range. </p><p>The reason i mentioned those people wasn’t to hype Sasuke but to show that he has battled named and more importantly feated characters. Kakashi at this point cannot say the same. </p><p>Kakashi is not as fast as unweighted Lee seeing as he hasn’t showcased speed like that before. </p><p>Id attribute Kakashi being able to use Chidori more to being the creator of the technique and having a better fundamental grasp of its function. Minato’s base Rasengan was better because he had better understanding of it then say, Jiriaiya. </p>

<p>It isn't speculation though. The point is kakashi has seen more combat and has come out more victorious in said combat. Who did kid sasuke actually beat (legimitately) in the far fewer battles he has had that is worth talking about? Sasuke was fodderized by Haku and only survived because Haku supposedly didn't want to kill him. Oro held back, was fodderized by rock lee, Gaara would have murked him, the list goes on. Kid Kakashi was also clearly the better prodigy. The only person Sasuke won against was Yoroi with my current headcanon and kid kakashi would murk that scrub, and sasuke was lucky that most of his chakra wasn't drained when Yoroi tagged him. </p>

<p>Why is Haku even being brought up, seeing as that Sasuke was much weaker compared to the Chunin Exams Sasuke, nevermind VOTE Sasuke. </p><p>The Sasuke that fought Yoroi was very drained from his fights in the Forest of Death and had to focus on restraining the curse mark as well. The fact that he could pull off defeating a chakra absorbing opponent, only proves how skilled he was. Of course this wasn't even Sasuke at his best in the Chunin Exams. </p><p>The Sasuke at the final phase of the Chunin Exams improved quite a bit. His speed was nearly on par with weightless Lee. As far as Part I is concerned, he was practically the fastest shinobi in Konoha in base nonetheless. Kakashi has never displayed Lee's level of high speed. Guy using gates against Kakashi is nothing more than speculation with no solid proof. Then we have the fact the he could keep up with kurama-amped Naruto who showcased high speed as well. Who has Kakashi battled that can be named speedsers? Sasuke also improved in taijutsu as well, and learned the very deadly Chidori. </p><p>Rank does not legitimize that he is better in every regard than just cuz they hold a higher rank. Now this is kid Kakashi who while achieving the rank of jonin, has never displayed feats on par with VOTE Sasuke. Kakashi may be smart, but Sasuke is no slacker in the area. Sasuke just has the overall power, speed and stamina over Kakashi's intelligence, which can only get him by so far. </p><p>I'm sorry but Kakashi gets trumped. Kid Kakashi is a lot of hype and no bark when it comes to feats. Sasuke wins with mid difficulty at the most and that's him not using his curse mark. </p>

<p>@Rachin, Haku was brought up to try to showcase that Sasuke has had battle experience. </p><p>I agree with your second point. The fact that Sasuke pulled off a win while restricting his Curse Seal with low chakra against a chakra absorbing guy is hella impressive. </p><p>Kakashi is easily at least Sasuke's speed after the training. The whole reason Sasuke had to train to that speed at all was so he could use CHidori. The technique that Kakashi invented before he became a Jonin. So yes, Kakashi is at the very least just as fast. </p><p>Kakashi competed in the same Chunin exams that Team 7 was getting beaten around in, and he came out as a Chunin. At age 6. His invention of an A-rank jutsu demonstrates his mastery of that element, more so than having an A-rank jutsu taught to him. He has more versatility and he's a smarter fighter. </p><p>Sasuke loses. He'd definitely win if he went CS2, but as it stands Kakashi is just more skilled and is smarter. </p>

<p>Hype and Portrayal matter a lot especially since we don't have many feats to go on for kakashi. Again superior prodigy, and Minato had enough confidence his skills to let him be the team leader and recommend he be promoted to Jonin. Rank is a good indicator as his development of shinobi far outpaced that of sasuke. Using the logic that has been presented as a counterargument, Asuma isn't good because he doesn't have alot of feats, but yet he made Jonin mostly through his taijutsu skills with Hien. That said, I agree rank isn't everything, because naruto who became god tier was basically a genin the entire series until the very end, but that is an exception and not the rule. </p><p>
As for speedsters, kakashi was trained by the fastest shinobi alive, and sasuke doesn't even approach the speeds that minato can go to, FTG or not. During the War Arc Minato outran the three previous hokage to the battlefield using Shunshin (not FTG as common mistranslations imply), and those same three hokage got to the battlefield way faster than EMS sasuke. Kid sasuke's speed won't be an issue, kakashi has seen worse, and kakashi was a war hero. </p><p>It's gonna take more than exaggerated stat differences for sasuke to keep up with kakashi's superior combat intelligence, combat skill, and combat experience . </p><p>Sasuke can be moody, arrogant, and can be taunted imo. Kakashi as a kid and even in Part one has shown to provoke his opponents and shit talk. he will copy sasuke's techniques and humiliate him like he did to Zabuza, especially since sasuke has been shown to be angry that kakashi sports a sharingan like he is an uchiha. Then kakashi sneaks in his classic clone feint to take sasuke out. </p>

<p>@Reaper </p><p>Kakashi did not allow him to copy Lee's speed threw him so he can pull off the Chidori. He knew that sand would be weak against lightning. He worked on his speed so he can bypass Gaara's sand defence and attacks. Also, CS1 Sasuke is faster than the Sasuke that fought against Gaara. Also, keep in mind this is Kid Kakashi. Whatever speed feats he has in Part I do not mean he was that fast as a kid. It'd be ridiculous to say so and even more to say he didn't improve in speed in that time-skip. </p><p>@Combat </p><p>That is not my problem. Without feats, all we have is hype and I'm not gonna just give to Kakashi because of rank. Also, I never said there had to be a quantity of feats. I said he has no feats to compare. Asuma's feats trumps anything Kid Kakashi could dish out. </p><p>By your logic, Rin and Obito were speedsters because their sensei was one. You make zero sense. Also, nobody is talking about Minato because he is in a different category. Kakashi can't even compare. Kakashi was no war hero. And him being in a war, doesn't mean he's dealt with opponents as fast or as strong as CS1 Sasuke. </p><p>Kakashi's reserves are low, so literally as a kid, their even worse. He ain't gonna continue to copy anything. Also, Kakashi literally lost against Zabuza and needed Naruto and Sasuke's help to break free of the prison. The only one humiliated was Kakashi. </p>