<p>@Reaper </p><p>Kakashi did not allow him to copy Lee's speed threw him so he can pull off the Chidori. He knew that sand would be weak against lightning. He worked on his speed so he can bypass Gaara's sand defence and attacks. Also, CS1 Sasuke is faster than the Sasuke that fought against Gaara. Also, keep in mind this is Kid Kakashi. Whatever speed feats he has in Part I do not mean he was that fast as a kid. It'd be ridiculous to say so and even more to say he didn't improve in speed in that time-skip. </p><p>@Combat </p><p>That is not my problem. Without feats, all we have is hype and I'm not gonna just give to Kakashi because of rank. Also, I never said there had to be a quantity of feats. I said he has no feats to compare. Asuma's feats trumps anything Kid Kakashi could dish out. </p><p>By your logic, Rin and Obito were speedsters because their sensei was one. You make zero sense. Also, nobody is talking about Minato because he is in a different category. Kakashi can't even compare. Kakashi was no war hero. And him being in a war, doesn't mean he's dealt with opponents as fast or as strong as CS1 Sasuke. </p><p>Kakashi's reserves are low, so literally as a kid, their even worse. He ain't gonna continue to copy anything. Also, Kakashi literally lost against Zabuza and needed Naruto and Sasuke's help to break free of the prison. The only one humiliated was Kakashi. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>Rachin123 wrote: @Reaper </p><p>Kakashi did not allow him to copy Lee's speed threw him so he can pull off the Chidori. He knew that sand would be weak against lightning. He worked on his speed so he can bypass Gaara's sand defence and attacks. Also, CS1 Sasuke is faster than the Sasuke that fought against Gaara. Also, keep in mind this is Kid Kakashi. Whatever speed feats he has in Part I do not mean he was that fast as a kid. It'd be ridiculous to say so and even more to say he didn't improve in speed in that time-skip. </p><p>@Combat </p><p>That is not my problem. Without feats, all we have is hype and I'm not gonna just give to Kakashi because of rank. Also, I never said there had to be a quantity of feats. I said he has no feats to compare. Asuma's feats trumps anything Kid Kakashi could dish out. </p><p>By your logic, Rin and Obito were speedsters because their sensei was one. You make zero sense. Also, nobody is talking about Minato because he is in a different category. Kakashi can't even compare. Kakashi was no war hero. And him being in a war, doesn't mean he's dealt with opponents as fast or as strong as CS1 Sasuke. </p><p>Kakashi's reserves are low, so literally as a kid, their even worse. He ain't gonna continue to copy anything. Also, Kakashi literally lost against Zabuza and needed Naruto and Sasuke's help to break free of the prison. The only one humiliated was Kakashi. </p> </i></div>
<p>Finally someone gets it </p>

<p>12yr old Kakashi was Jonin level and a Jonin. His feats AFTER the Kanabi Bridge incident are better, as an Anbu when he was "killer kakashi" or whatever they called him.. he had 3 tomoe and he was more adjusted to his Sharingan and not passing out from it like he did when he literally first got it. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>FlatZone wrote: 12yr old Kakashi was Jonin level and a Jonin. His feats AFTER the Kanabi Bridge incident are better, as an Anbu when he was "killer kakashi" or whatever they called him.. he had 3 tomoe and he was more adjusted to his Sharingan and not passing out from it like he did when he literally first got it. </p> </i></div>
<p>Explain to me what Jonin “level” is because I’ve seen it touted in this thread as the reason Kakashi is above Sasuke but the exact power level is vague. </p><p>He passed out as an adult after his fight with Zabuza for what , three days. His stamina and chakra are meh as an adult naturally it wiuld be worse when he was younger </p>

<p>Kid kakashi was a jonin ,he became a anbu later on. Wasn't he older when he became a anbu , like 17-18yr old ?. If it's that anbu kakashi ,then he can take out Sasuke. He is much more stronger and faster. He is also experienced enough with the sharingan, not to mention he can also use kamui as he has unlocked it. </p><p>
If it's kid kakashi (jonin) vs kid sasuke, considering his fight with orochimaru and one tail naruto, Sasuke has good chances of winning. Sasuke has higher durability,reaction and equal or higher speed. In cm1 he could see orochimaru's speed and could dodge one tail naruto plus he can use curse mark to enhance his chidori,which matched Naruto's kyuubi rasengan. While kakashi is more better in ninjutsu, the sharingan drains chakra out of him, and gives him limited chidori. That point of time he was not well versed with sharingan or with chidori. Kakashi is more tactical than sasuke but sasuke had raw power with the cm. </p>

<p>No, he became an Anbu right when the 3rd war ended and he was still 12. </p>

<p>@Rachin you can't copy speed. I've seen you say that a couple times, but it's not possible to copy speed. You can only copy what you're physically capable of doing. That's why there was so much training involved. </p><p>And Guy said that one of the components of Chidori was the absolute speed of the strike. No, Sasuke needed that speed to use Chidori properly. Otherwise, Sasuke could have just used a slower Chidori to cut through any sand attacks/defence since it's strong against Gaara's sand. Part of Chidori is how fast you strike. And Kakashi would have no place training Sasuke to that speed if he himself was not capable of moving that speed. </p><p>Kakashi did lose against Zabuza. Yeah, he said it himself; he hadn't faced an opponent like that in a long time, and he didn't take the fight seriously enough. And we all saw exactly what happened as soon as Kakashi got serious. He absolutely wrecked Zabuza. Both the first time and the fight on the bridge. He was careless the first time and lost fair and square. But as soon as he fought Zabuza seriously, Zabuza didn't have a chance. </p>

<p>@Rachin, </p><p>Even without feats, hype is all we got and we should never assume that characters didn't live up to their hype without proof. By hype, kakashi is superior, as already stated, advanced through the ninja challenge totempole at a far faster rate than sasuke, and also had the luxury (or misfortune) of growing up in a to a real Ninja War, giving him much more battle experience. Sasuke has not only seen way less battle his rate of growth is far smaller, and he has lost most of his Part one battle, while kakashi became world renowned, how do they even compare ???? </p><p>I never said that kakashi was as fast as minato. I said he had experience fighting against a superior speedster. That experience means he has worked on trying to deal with someone significantly faster than him, kakashi and minato have no doubt sparred many times. As AsianReaper has stated, we have reason to believe that based on the chidori training kid kakashi is on the same playing field of speed. CS1 sasuke is perhaps faster, but not by ridculous levels, and given kakashi's experience, he will more than be able to counter sasuke's faster speed. Speed alone won't close the gap between sasuke and kakashi, Speed is just one category. </p><p>
How is kakashi not a war hero???? He was known through the world as Kakashi of the Sharingan due to his prowess during the war? If he was a scrub then why did he become famous? How did he get in Zabuza'z bingo book? </p><p>
Kakashi has low reserves, and so does Itachi, and look at how succesful they became. Stamina only matters if the battle becomes a battle of stamina, which it won't. Kakashi would just need to copy and counter 2-3 of sasuke's ninjutsu, taunt him about how he is better at using the sharingan, etc, sasuke gets annoyed, inevitably falls for kakashi's signature clone feint. This is literally why kakashi was feared as the Copy Ninja. We have seen the extremes to which he copies his opponent and uses it as a medium to deliver finishing blows. He uses psychological warfare, and sasuke, while smart, has personality flaws that can be exploited by kakashi's fighting strategy. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: @Rachin, </p><p>Even without feats, hype is all we got and we should never assume that characters didn't live up to their hype without proof. By hype, kakashi is superior, as already stated, advanced through the ninja challenge totempole at a far faster rate than sasuke, and also had the luxury (or misfortune) of growing up in a to a real Ninja War, giving him much more battle experience. Sasuke has not only seen way less battle his rate of growth is far smaller, and he has lost most of his Part one battle, while kakashi became world renowned, how do they even compare ???? </p><p>I never said that kakashi was as fast as minato. I said he had experience fighting against a superior speedster. That experience means he has worked on trying to deal with someone significantly faster than him, kakashi and minato have no doubt sparred many times. As AsianReaper has stated, we have reason to believe that based on the chidori training kid kakashi is on the same playing field of speed. CS1 sasuke is perhaps faster, but not by ridculous levels, and given kakashi's experience, he will more than be able to counter sasuke's faster speed. Speed alone won't close the gap between sasuke and kakashi, Speed is just one category. </p><p>
How is kakashi not a war hero???? He was known through the world as Kakashi of the Sharingan due to his prowess during the war? If he was a scrub then why did he become famous? How did he get in Zabuza'z bingo book? </p><p>
Kakashi has low reserves, and so does Itachi, and look at how succesful they became. Stamina only matters if the battle becomes a battle of stamina, which it won't. Kakashi would just need to copy and counter 2-3 of sasuke's ninjutsu, taunt him about how he is better at using the sharingan, etc, sasuke gets annoyed, inevitably falls for kakashi's signature clone feint. This is literally why kakashi was feared as the Copy Ninja. We have seen the extremes to which he copies his opponent and uses it as a medium to deliver finishing blows. He uses psychological warfare, and sasuke, while smart, has personality flaws that can be exploited by kakashi's fighting strategy. </p> </i></div>
<p>
It’s not about living up to his hype, but attributing the edge to Kakashi over a character with feats because if said hype. Kakashi is being overhyped because of a sparsely documented war record that has no notable battles, speculations on his speed even though he has NEVER shown speed on weightless Lee’s level, and intelligence that he has NO feats of using against a opponent of Sasuke’s caliber. Hype isn’t bad by any means but it needs to be used as a supplementary source to feats because it’s typically to flimsy to hold up on its own. </p><p>
Minato has NEVER attempted to abuse his massive speed advantage against Kakashi and you know it . This whole premise is based on Minato using his speed to fight Kakashi and he to my knowledge hasn’t because as soon as he did Kakashi is stomped. Kakashi is not as fast as this Sasuke and it becomes a stomp if Sasuke uses CM. </p><p>Are we going to act like Sasuke doesn’t possess the ability to copy jutsu as well? Well he does and i don’t see how Copying jutsu gives Kakashi ANY edge against an opponent that can do the same. </p><p>Kakashi at this point has no showings of mentally manipulating opponents at this point in his career so the point is moot. Kakashi is a far cry from the Shinobi he becomes later in life and it’s simply incorrect to try to apply feats and techs he uses in the future to this incarnation. </p><p>Kakashi could’ve easily become renowned after the War </p>

<p>@Reaper </p><p>We have no proof to assume Kid Kakashi is as fast as Lee without weights though. Sure, maybe you need to be fast to endure the speed at which the Chidori moves you, but we have no comparable speed feat. An adult Kakashi training Sasuke doesn't mean anything considering this is him much stronger than he was as a kid. </p><p>@Combat </p><p>We are only talking about Kid Kakashi. Him renown is a title gained later on. What experience does Kid Kakashi really have to trump Kid Sasuke's? They both fought opponents out of their league. And both were rescued by their sensei's. </p><p>I am not by any chance saying Kid Kakashi sucks. I'm saying that following the hype entails what? What jutsus do he possess outside of Chidori, cuz Sasuke can do the same. Sasuke has versatility in ninjutsu with fire release. Sasuke is a pretty skilled combatant. I mean the kid forced an adult Kakashi to use both hands to block his attacks, something he found impressive himself. </p><p>I noticed that almost everything you mentioned about Kakashi is him in his later years. That doesn't account for here. It's Kid Kakashi. </p>