<p>I don't recall Itachi ever reforming crow clones to attack. Other than inside genjutsu but yeah, that doesn't count. </p><p>Also, "stun" is being used incorrectly here. Kabuto was never stunned, as in incapacitated or immobilized, yes he was deceived and the crows dispersed as far as I recall. The rest of the crow clones was inside Izanami, so once again it doesn't count. </p><p>Furthermore, what makes the comparison valid against Orochimaru? Orochimaru will fight differently simply because he has edos with him, note, not even the only reason. To say he will fight like Kabuto, and be deceived like Kabuto was, just because they have similar abilities is wrong. </p>

<p>@Ninja Of War The proof of the stun is the "ugh" which kabuto registers not only in chapter 580 but also in Chapter 586. The crows very clearly have a momentary stunning effect, which allowed Itachi to successfully strike kabuto despite the latter almost successfully dodging both times... Kabuto thinks he countered itachi because of his healing and because itachi only managed to cut off a horn, but he doesn't know that the cutting of the horn is what itachi is going for. The crows are not only unexpected , because both hebi sasuke and kabuto registered a "?!" when they appeared, but in kabuto's case itachi added a stunning effect which even caused kabuto to drop the sword both times, which is what allowed Itachi to catch the sword in the first place both times... After that, everything else occurred in izanami, but still. </p><p>The point is, the stunning effect created by the crows was powerful enough to physically disorient kabuto, the same kabuto who has the exact same enhancements orochimaru does. In fact, kabuto absorbed a huge part of orochimaru himself as shown in the canon, so I can in fact credibly argue that the feat is directly applicable. to this versus debate. Clearly, sage mode and hashirama cells aren't a sufficient protection against the the crows. </p><p>As for orochimaru being deceived, he will in fact be decieved because itachi itachi is smarter and more calculated than orochimaru is in battle based on feats , and more importantly, faster. Itachi still has the best hand seal speed feats in the manga. He clearly trained his handseal speed to the point that a 3 tomoe sharingan could not viably track it, much like rock lee physically trained his speed despite having little to no chakra control skills to be one of the fastest characters among his peers... In the time it took for Itachi to sheath his shurikens against kakashi, itachi already:casted the hand signs for a water style technique, a shadow clone, and a substitution technique such that kakashi and kurenai didn't notice it until after the fact. </p><p>Now, many ninja have shown the ability to substitute with clones out of nowhere. Yamato did it to orochimaru. Sai did it to orochimaru. Madara did it to the 5 kages. Hashirama did to madara at the valley of the end. Kakashi himself did it to itachi and several other shinobi, but the reason I find Itachi's so special is because he doesn't rely on line of sight blockers to do it. He does it in plain sight. Itachi is clearly on par with hashirama in his clone feinting skill, because he clone feinted sage mode kabuto twice without the latter noticing, and by extension, he also clone feinted EMS sasuke. sasuke has the pinnacle of sharingan doujutsu yet he did not notice itachi substituting with a clone right in front of his own eyes. If kakashi could do clone feints the way itachi did, we would have seen him do it many times, instead kakashi always relies on sneaking underground first or sneaking underwater or using smokescreens/line of sight blockers. Meanwhile, Itachi near instantly got behind kakashi without using any vision obstructions. Meanwhile, itachi ran towards kabuto, kabuto stabbed him, and it turned out to be a clone out of nowhere. </p><p>
Given those feats, why is orochimaru so special that he can track itachi's clone formations when comparable shinobi (EMS sasuke, Sage mode Kabuto) couldn't? We have to look at how the battle would play out. Orochimaru as per canon starts out his edo tensei fights by first weaving the seals to summon edo tensei coffins. Itachi steals initiative using his super handseal speed, he can prep his shadow clone/crow clone and substitution just like he has done canonically on more than one occasion. We have seen canonically, itachi would use a high level ninjutsu also during this time. He is facing edo tensei. So here is how it goes, susano'o forms in literal fractions of a second. He would most certainly use his yakasa matagama just like he did to kabuto first. (Think of that as the water style jutsu he used against kakashi). Then the clone feint happens, except this time he does 2 crow clones instead of one because he is facing multiple enemies here. (Think of that as the shadow clone feint/crow clone feint he used on both kakashi and kabuto). Lastly, Itachi goes for a finishing blow. In this case, he won't be using sasuke's sword nor tsykuyomi in my opinion, instead he uses the totsuka blade because that is the only thing that will finish orochimaru and his edo tensei.... </p><p>Now on Totsuka blade, unfortunately, I'm gonna have to keep pressuring you with this. While it's true that Nagato, in theory, couldn't use the preta path or shinra tensei... Again, he is still a rinnegan user. He still has substitution, an E rank technique, to leave a log in his place while safely avoids the technique. He still has summoning animals available (like the salamander, the panda bear, the lobster, etc), he still has asura path. All he has to do is ATTEMPT anything that could deflect the blade. The fact that he couldn't take any physical or even mental action proves the blade's speed was too fast for his nervous system to handle. IF you are telling me that there was nothing in Nagato's vast arsenal that Kabuto could have used to deflect that giant blade then all that proves is how rediculously overpowered that blade is. And in that instance, Itachi didn't even use his signature clone feint, he didn't use any kind of genjutsu... all things he would be doing in this hypothetical battle to increases the already high chances of the totsuka blade hitting these 3 opponents. </p><p>
Team orochimaru's action during the hurling of the yakasa matagama has to be pinpoint, otherwise they will lose control of the fight. During that time, all Konan's arsenal allows her to do is fires her paper bombs, which just get walled by susano'o, and guess what, those create more smokescreens which makes it even harder to see the blade coming. The only thing kimimaro can viably do is his bracken dance, which Itachi already knows about as per canon, and I have already proven how he can counter that technique. What will orochimaru do exactly? He has a wide arsenal of techniques, but he has to choose the optimal one or else he is good as dead, because regardless of what he does, he has no way of stopping itachi's bijuu dama size yakasa beads(itachi's strongest long range attack in terms of destructive power) from exploding. the purpose of the yakasa beads is to create a smokescreen/box his opponents in/ disorient them, which is what allowed sasuke's susano'o arrow to tag kabuto.... Once they explode, it's game over because the totsuka blade is coming next, as per canon. So what will orochimaru do to stop it? How does he deal with the fact that itachi's crow clones will already be primed to momentarily stun his teammates? </p><p>Furthermore, it took chiyo and sakura a while to even notice that naruto was trapped in genjutsu, so partner method isn't some instantenous counter to genjutsu. So you know what? What's stopping itachi from throwing his beads, pointing at kimimaro using his faster handseal speed and is comparable to how he was able to sheath shurikens against kakashi after weaving his other techniques in his robe, and substituting with his clone(s)?. The clones have been shown to use jutsu. Itachi's crow clone was seen using genjutsu on naruto during the sasuke vs itachi arc. So Itachi's crow clone can cast katon to dissipate any paper attacks from konan. Kimimaro is stopped in his tracks temporarily due to being caught in finger genjutsu. By the time konan dispatches the crow clone and knows to release kimimaro through partner method, the beads would have already gone off, and totsuka blade seals orochimaru. then the fight proceeds as I have stated. </p>

<p>Oro wins. He uses Edo Tensei Ko and Kim, and Itachi is put in a corner cuz he can’t immobilize or seal either of them away, bc he has no such materials or techniques. Even if he attempts kagemane, he doesn’t have enough chakra to hold both at the same time for long. Thus, he ends up using Amaterasu and susannoo. Amaterasu literally won’t affect any of them cuz Ko and Kim can reform and Oro can use the whole snakeskin approach Sasuke used when confronted with Amaterasu. He can then slide into the earth and then use earth related ninjutsu. Oro is a good strategist and so is itachi. But new era oro has more regeneration techniques and better tech to use. Ninja tools. He can use techniques he couldn’t otherwise perform as well. Not only that, he is one of the Sannin. That aside. Ko and Kim can spam their long range techniques and act as decoys since the are nearly invincible at this point, since they’re already dead. So Itachi is backed into a corner and uses susanoo. Now, in the anime, all the layers of Susannoo took 2x3 seconds at least, to form. The totsuka blade only appears when Susannoo is fully formed. Oro can attack this vulnerability by use Kim’s long-range technique, Dance of the Seedling Fern, and can pierce itachi. Game over, oro wins. </p>

how is this still going on

<p>Ok. So. @kirito, sorry if this discussion is too drawn out for you, but there’s still a dispute as to who would win - so yeah. </p><p>Also, a little bit of a further analysis (that will come in parts) since I’m bored: </p><p>A look at Itachi’s arsenal: </p><p>Lots and lots of genjustu he can use with the Mangekyo. He can use Tsukiyomi variants as well as normal genjustu. </p><p>Taijutsu. Itachi is pretty strong and fast, but he typically does not engage in hand-to-hand combat - just something I’ve noticed. </p><p>Ninjutsu. This is Itachi’s forte, along with genjutsu. He can obviously replicate most, if not all, chakra natures. Additionally, he can use Sha no Sho, which is basically Kage Bunshin with less chakra used up and more advantage for distraction. </p><p>His two other specialties are Susanoo and Amaterasu. I will elaborate on these later. </p><p>Oro’s arsenal: </p><p>Edo Konan and Kimimaro and their abilities (namely, ninjutsu and kekkai genkai, respectively). </p><p>Taijustu. I don’t really know Oro’s physical state of taijutsu. However, he fought Log with a sword, he is, at the very least, proficient with kenjustu. </p><p>Genjutsu. He got caught in Itachi’s once, therefore he has probably researched it extensively and taken precautions to avoid it, like Deidara. I’m going to assume, that, being a ninja, Oro knows the basics at least. </p><p>Ninjutsu. Oro is an expert in ninjutsu. He can use all sorts of chakra natures thanks to research and preparation, especially if this is the new era oro we are talking about. </p><p>His snake variation techniques additionally give him better chances of winning. </p><p>Edo Konan and Kimimaro’s techniques, combined with his, prove Oro has the better arsenal (for the sake of not having a better words to describe it with). </p><p>Chakra: </p><p>Itachi at his prime has less than usual chakra. However, he has refined chakra control. </p><p>Oro - I’m not sure how much chakra he has, but combined with Konan and Kimimaro’s chakra, it’s more than Itachi’s for sure, meaning he can probably get more techniques in. </p>

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<p>@Combat I don the think your scenarios of a battle are all necessarily realistic. (Ironic, since this is fictional. :)) </p><p>Why? Because both ninja here are smart enough to already (at least partially) prep for the fight. Itachi is fast, but Oro is shrewd. He wouldn’t make ninjutsu seals in plain sight in front of Itachi, who he knows can copy the moves with his sharingan. </p><p>Moving on. Why would itachi pull his Susanoo out from the very beginning? He specifically stated it was his “trump card”. That would imply that it would not be one of his first tactics in any fight. </p><p>Also, Itachi has this thing where he assesses the opponents. Usually, he starts gauging with Gokakyu no Justu or genjustu. In this case, it may be a more advanced fire technique or genjustu. But you forgot Oro had encountered itachi before. And, this is him in the new era. </p><p>So, Oro can choose from a variety of options to counter with. He can dispel it himself(the genjustu). He can have edos Konan and Kimi disrupt his chakra and release the genjutsu. He could do a substitution technique that Itachi would have no use of copying, and then substitute with a clone. </p><p>As for fire techniques, anything to counter it with would result in smokescreens. Oro knows that. So. He could either fling a water technique right back, or a wind or fire technique and overpower itachi’s technique. That is possible. Else, oro could dodge and retreat to a different spot, assuming Itachi doesn’t use Amaterasu. </p><p>If Itachi uses Amaterasu, then admittedly, Oro appears to be in a deadlock. But he could counter by using the same technique Sasuke used to evade Amaterasu. He could basically then collapse a hole into the earth and start using Doton techniques against Itachi. </p><p>Meanwhile, itachi would be using more clones to deal with kimi and Konan. They have had virtually no prep, since they would ha=e been summoned barely a minute ago at most. So out would come the explosive tags on the clones. </p><p>Again, more smokescreens. But Kimi could literally spam his kekkai genkai techniques over and over to pressure the clones by using his spine as a weapon and expanding his other bones. This would buy konan enough time for a whole barrage of paper weapons. Of course, itachi would set these on fire. Another huge smokefest. </p><p>It works for and against both parties. But oro would be underground, not wanting to risk being caught by genjustu or Amaterasu. So he could spam Earth techniques and Kimi and Konan could blitz itachi in various ways since themselves cannot die. </p><p>Rigged paper shuriken combined with bone attacks and earth techniques would be bound to catch at least one clone off guard. Even if Itachi barraged a variety of techniques, he would be creating more smokescreens with fire attacks. Therefore, he would try to limit the use of fire, since he would then basically be completely disoriented. So, water techniques would be used along with others. But konan could basically spam explosive tags and paper weaponry over and over again, creating smokescreens intentionally so let Kimi and the rigged shuriken do their job. Additionally, oro could use earth to level whichever people he wanted to up or down so the edos could avoid smokescreens or attacks. (Sharingan cannot see through earth, and even if Itachi did, oro could basically make clones and skedaddle them all underground.) </p><p>Itachi would be fighting on two levels: above and under the ground. He would recognize it would be a priority to seal away the edos. So he would invoke susanoo with the hopes of getting out the totsuka blade and yata mirror. </p><p>Meanwhile, Oro would recognize this (sannin and shrewd and strategic) and would scatter a bunch snakes in and around the area of susanoo. </p><p>Oro’s snakes could signal kimi to activate dance of the seedling fern and get himself and Konan underground as well. The could get under itachi, right under him, and wait right before itachi would activate susanoo. Then, launching an ambus would be child’s play.... </p>

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<p>.... and so I believe I’ve established how team oro would be underground. </p><p>Itachi would not simply activate susanoo. My mistake. He would probably launch a barrage of rigged weapons and ninjutsu at team oro. </p><p>(Please ignore the last two paragraphs of my last comment, because I was thinking of a situation right before susanoo.) </p><p>Ok. So. Let me reestablish the position of all the (original) ninjas in this fight. Edos are pretty much near each other, fronting some clones. Oro is underground near the Edos and clones. And Itachi is around them somewhere, but not very far away since I don’t believe that is really his fighting style, he seems to fight mid-range. </p><p>Now the smokescreens must have faded. So everyone can see each other clearly, and Itachi can simply spam genjustu over and over again on the edos, and take away oro’s edge. That is, if there are no smokescreens. Oro knows this is one of the biggest problems of the fight. </p><p>So it is a priority to disorient Itachi’s vision. Obviously, oro cannot hope to out-genjustu the genjustu prodigy. So another way to disorient would be to use up smokescreens or to use underground earth techniques to help make his position waver and disorient him a bit to let the Edos make a move. </p><p>Remember that time oro met the Iburi clan? That’s right, the clan who could turn into smoke. Clearly, if this is new era oro, he has used up a lot of tech for research and he could replicate techniques. So, he could do this: send a couple of snakes about form underground crevices around “itachi” or his clones, and then basically Smoke-no-Justu them (for lack of a better word). </p><p>Simultaneously, Konami could fling paper bombs attached to paper kunai at Itachi. </p><p>However, itachi would obviously not stay still. He’d be smart enough to be continuously moving, shifting positions, and throw ninjutsu and weapons at everything that was team oro. At the end, though, it still wouldn’t matter. Why? Because regardless of whatever he throws at the edos, they’ll regenerate. </p><p>So he’d go after oro. If he got oro to undo edo tensei by killing him, then game over. But he can’t do that for some reasons: 1) Oro can basically regenerate from almost any wounds, 2) Oro is hecka slinky and can clone snake clones all around to outmaneuver itachi, 3) he can do earth techniques and itachi cannot (said in wiki), 4) he could just use the whole Smoke-no Justu thing, 5) Kimimaro is intensely loyal to oro and would do anything with his kekkai genkai underground to inhibit itachi to do anything. </p><p>So basically itachi would be at the point where he’d be bombarded continually by smokescreens and earth technique under his feet dislocating his position. </p><p>He’d have to get Susannoo and use totsuka. </p><p>And then (apply the last three paragraphs from the Susanoo scenario here). </p><p>
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<p>I find out funny how people are making up scenarios that most likely would never happen anyway.. you are supposed to base your arguments off of statements and feats that characters actually have, and have done.. Meaning with his Sharingan Itachi would see them underground the same way Sasuke saw Deidara's clay mines undergrounf simce seeing chakra is literally one of the Sharingans abilities. </p>

<p>@Flat ok thanks :) you know I am just trying to make scenarios since that’s how I figure this sort of stuff out. Also I am not giving anybody feats that they have not done or could not do. If you check these character’s wikis then you would know this. If you would check the above discussion posts you would also know this. As for itachi seeing chakra underground ...my point still stands. Itachi could literally only see chakra underground, and as such he can be thwarted. Oro could make multiple sources of chakra (ie. snakes, snake clones, clones in general). </p><p>Basically, I have come to a point with way more scenarios than just the one I have in parts above (that one was the most likely by a slight margin) where itachi is forced to use Susannoo for totsuka. I wrote the scenario down to prove this so that others could not dispute my reasoning. So if you say this “would never happen”, then you’re right because this is all entirely fictional, but you’re also wrong because in the whole situation, this is actually an EXTREMELY likely scenario. </p><p>Also, I find it funny how you yourself say earlier in this’s discussion that you “can’t go off feats alone” and now you’re saying the exact opposite so lol but my points still stand. </p>

<p>@FaitoMaito </p><p>Itachi has never had killing intent in the manga against most of his opponents, and the few times we did see him have intent he used susano'o and Totsuka rather immediately. This is a versus battle uninfluenced by plot and his opponents are immortal so..., not reason to believe he wouldn't use Totsuka rather immediately. I do appreciate that you are at trying to look at the fight reasonably and considering the feats and abilities of both characters. </p><p>However, Itachi's genjutsu and speed are too much for them to handle. With just 30 percent of his chakra available, Itachi was able to completely pin down naruto. While it's true naruto didn't have the best chakra control at that point in the manga, he still has UZUMAKI levels of chakra flowing through his brain. Even after he tried to forcibly break it, Itachi still completely controlled all of his chakra. 100 percent Itachi would be able to make his genjutsu more potent by adding more chakra to it. Secondly, you still have to be AWARE of the genjutsu to break it. Killer Bee was caught in a very subtle genjutsu against Itachi. HE released his tentacle underground for real because we see it even after Gyuki broke him out. Itachi could have killed him at any time, because Gyuki wasn't even aware of the genjutsu while Killer Bee took several physical actions in the real world. Itachi's genjutsu does not require eye contact, and he still continues to attack you while you are trapped in genjutsu. Kimimaro and Konan are screwed. </p><p>I looked over your scenario but I don't have time at the moment to critically analyze it, but I will do so later. </p>