<div class="quote"><i> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: While it's true naruto didn't have the best chakra control at that point in the manga, he still has UZUMAKI levels of chakra flowing through his brain. Even after he tried to forcibly break it, Itachi still completely controlled all of his chakra. </p> </i></div>
<p>Itachi getting Naruto in a genjutsu is not as impressive as you're trying to make it out to be. People aren't suddenly immune to genjutsu by virtue of having a large chakra pool. You even said so yourself thay Naruto's chakra control sucked which is exactly the reason why he had difficulty breaking Itachi's genjutsu </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>UltimaDude wrote: </p> <div class="quote"> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: While it's true naruto didn't have the best chakra control at that point in the manga, he still has UZUMAKI levels of chakra flowing through his brain. Even after he tried to forcibly break it, Itachi still completely controlled all of his chakra. </p> </i></div>
<p>Itachi getting Naruto in a genjutsu is not as impressive as you're trying to make it out to be. People aren't suddenly immune to genjutsu by virtue of having a large chakra pool. You even said so yourself thay Naruto's chakra control sucked which is exactly the reason why he had difficulty breaking Itachi's genjutsu </p> </div> <p>This is the downplay I'm talking about. Literally go back to Part 1 and PLEASE reread the parts where they said ninjutsu/genjutsu are INCREASED in potency the more chakra you put in. Itachi has SHIT reserves, and he was on 30 percent of his chakra. Genjutsu, according to Jiraiya requires to forcibly control all the chakra in the target's cranial nerves. When naruto attempted genjutsu Kai, Naruto was trying to forcibly stop ALL the chakra flow in his body, and Itachi CASUALLY said no! Itachi literally controlled all his chakra, with just 30 percent strength. Sorry, but there is a MASSIVE difference in chakra between the two characters. Naruto's weaker chakra control does not suddenly make up for the massive disadvantage Itachi has. It's a testament to Itachi's chakra control. Put Itachi at 100 percent, and hell, make him healthy, and no one is breaking his genjutsu unless they are Hashirama level or have sharingan hax or partner method. He is the second strongest genjutsu user of all time for a reason. And don't act like Naruto's chakra control at the time is awful. It's not anything particularly great, but he still was able to make rasengans, the pinnacle of shape control, even if it required him to make a clone. </p>

<p>Seen some people talk about how Dance of the Seedling Fern would be a problem for Itachi. I don't think it would. Since you infuse chakra with calcium for Shikotsumyaku (and therefore Kimimaro's dances), Itachi would logically be able to see the chakra underground before the attack occurs, similar to when Sasuke did this against Deidara - who's justu style is also revolved around a kekkei genkai - [1]. Of course, it's somewhat headcanon, however it makes perfect sense that this would be the case. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>Barrygold wrote: Seen some people talk about how Dance of the Seedling Fern would be a problem for Itachi. I don't think it would. Since you infuse chakra with calcium for Shikotsumyaku (and therefore Kimimaro's dances), Itachi would logically be able to see the chakra underground before the attack occurs, similar to when Sasuke did this against Deidara - who's justu style is also revolved around a kekkei genkai - [1]. Of course, it's somewhat headcanon, however it makes perfect sense that this would be the case. </p> </i></div>
<p>Just because you can see it doesn't mean you can dodge it. Also, Explosive Tag Rain from above and bones below will fix that issue real quick. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: This is the downplay I'm talking about. Literally go back to Part 1 and PLEASE reread the parts where they said ninjutsu/genjutsu are INCREASED in potency the more chakra you put in. Itachi has SHIT reserves, and he was on 30 percent of his chakra. Genjutsu, according to Jiraiya requires to forcibly control all the chakra in the target's cranial nerves. When naruto attempted genjutsu Kai, Naruto was trying to forcibly stop ALL the chakra flow in his body, and Itachi CASUALLY said no! Itachi literally controlled all his chakra, with just 30 percent strength. Sorry, but there is a MASSIVE difference in chakra between the two characters. Naruto's weaker chakra control does not suddenly make up for the massive disadvantage Itachi has. It's a testament to Itachi's chakra control. Put Itachi at 100 percent, and hell, make him healthy, and no one is breaking his genjutsu unless they are Hashirama level or have sharingan hax or partner method. He is the second strongest genjutsu user of all time for a reason. And don't act like Naruto's chakra control at the time is awful. It's not anything particularly great, but he still was able to make rasengans, the pinnacle of shape control, even if it required him to make a clone. </p> </i></div>
<p>Stop wanking Itachi, it's gross. </p>

• Itachi only controlled the chakra flow in Naruto's central nervous system, because that is how genjutsu works
• When Naruto tried to break out of Itachi's genjutsu, Itachi would only need to maintain control of Naruto's CNS. Because, like I said, that is how genjutsu works.
• If what you're suggesting is even remotely true, then the partner method wouldn't even work unless they emit much more chakra possibly to the point of using their entire reserves
• So what if Naruto can make a Rasengan? If Naruto's chakra control was as good as you're implying he would have some genjutsu skills himself

<p>@Itachisempi What are you on about? </p><p>OT: Itachi reacting to Kimi's bones is still being discussed. Jesus. Dude reacted to the faster Muki Tensei but supposedly can't react to bones. Logic. Anyways, the dude can fly via crows, and attack aerially, or he could simply turtle in Susano'o with an extra layer protection in Yata. Even arguing it ain't omnidirectional; dude is way faster and reflexive than Kimi or Orochimaru and both collectively so they aren't exploiting the 180° defense even not to mention they gotta get past the nigh 360° protection i.e., Susano'o - which they can't by any means or measure, so they'd have to opt for a battle of attrition - that's banned per the matchup stipulations. </p><p>Not seeing how they win this. </p>

They aren't Gaara with Onoki's help so they aren't pulling him out of it either.

<p>@Faito </p><p>Thanks for the rundown. Reading an actual scenario of a fight, with counters and such, is refreshing. It also gives me an idea of how you view the characters and your thought process, so thank you. </p><p>@Flatzone </p><p>Considering you never give rundowns, why does @Faito giving one bother you? </p><p>@Ultima </p><p>Yeah, Itachi using genjutsu on Naruto back then is not as impressive as many make it out to be. Kabuto's temple of Nirvana is more impressive, yet it doesn't get the same treatment. </p><p>@Combat </p><p>Genjutsu is all about chakra control. Doesn't matter how much chakra you have, if your chakra is disturbed by genjutsu, you need to "reset" it. That version of Naruto not being able to do it, doesn't make Itachi legendary. </p>

<p>What are you even talking about. They don't have Gaara or his sand, and they don't have Onoki to lighten the sand so Gaara can pull the user out of Susanoo. That is the only time it has ever been cicumvented successfully. </p>

<p>@Ninja of War </p><p>Again, that's blatant head canon. It doesn't matter how much you guys try to downplay, the manga made it clear. Shisui and Itachi are in fact legendary when it comes to genjutsu and they have the feats and character statements to support it. You guys wanna ignore feats and hype, go right ahead. I'll simply try this again. </p><p>Part 1 ninjutsu/genjutsu basics. Put more chakra into your genjutsu/ninjutsu, the more potent it will be. Itachi has 30 percent of his shit stamina available. That means at best, he put in what, 10 percent of his 30 percent? He showed no exhaustion after the genjutsu so he didn't put an incredible amount into it. That means he used an extremely small amount of chakra and his chakra control was good enough to make it unbreakable despite Naruto's best efforts. Genjutsu isn't just a battle of chakra control and you know it. It's also a battle of strength. Even if naruto can only properly manipulate 30 percent of his massive reserves, that's still MAGNITUDES more chakra than Itachi has available even at 100 percent, and he still easily pinned him down. The more chakra Itachi has to control, the more resistance there is because he has to unnaturally resist the natural flow of chakra in the victim's body in order to induce and maintain the illusions. Naruto's uzuamki level of reserves makes that an issue. We already saw that Byakugan users can glimpse the power of an opponent by simply looking at how much chakra is flowing through their chakra network, as we saw as per canon when we saw Neji observe the massive chakra of 30 percent Kisame. Itachi has to control all of naruto's chakra who was directly compared to that same Kisame. That's still a massive amount of chakra to control. Every ninjutsu/genjutsu is a product of the chakra control and the AMOUNT of chakra used to make it. Genjutsu:Kai, which involves forcibly stopping the flow of chakra in your body, is no different even without looking at it from a logical perspective. Look at the mechanics of any technique. You have to knead your chakra and control it just like with any other technique, and with naruto's massive reserves he should have been easily able to compensate his chakra control issues with his massive reserves (simply mould up more chakra) if (THIRTY PERCENT) Itachi is some average genjutsu user like you seem to be implying. How do I know for sure genjutsu Kai: is just like any technique? Because we clearly see the characters have to weave signs for it. Naruto weaved a sign in ephemeral. Sakura, Guy, and Kakashi are all weaving the tiger seal. So yeah, no. Naruto tried his best, he put in as much chakra into it as possible, and even with the full force of his uzumaki reserves, it wasn't enough. And improvement in chakra control cannot possibly close the gap between him and a WEAK Itachi, let alone a 100 percent Itachi. </p><p>Wanna give Naruto his war arc chakra control feats? Fine, then give Itachi 100 percent of his chakra available and he simply puts in MORE CHAKRA this time to increase the potency of the genjutsu, and the result remains the same (ignoring Kurama partner method). </p><p>
Kabuto's temple of Nirvana isn't anywhere close to Itachi's feats and hype lol. Seriously? Let's not act like Itachi couldn't genjutsu all those fodders. As for the named characters, Even Guy isn't breaking out unless he manages to induce a huge surge of chakra flow with the eight inner gates at the right time. Kakashi is the only person in that stadium who be able to resist genjutsu at Itachi's level with a high probability and that is purely by virtue of his own sharingan hax, which in of itself gives a massive resistance to genjutsu. Itachi is able to control MANY targets with genjutsu and his mind control and by his extension his chakra control over his victims cannot be detected by some of the best sensors in the manga working in UNISON, according to the official Naruto manga Viz Translation of Chapter 540. Ao ( who we know knows all about Shisui) and Shikaku didn't even attribute such a feat to Shisui, the only other character hyped to be above Itachi in overall genjutsu potency. So much for people claiming characters like Base Minato can instantly detect Itachi's genjutsu due to being a "sensor". Sorry, Unless like you are at the level ofHashirama Senju in Sage Mode, I don't see anyone using sensing as a viable method of detecting genjutsu at Itachi level, as that is saying they can outdo an an entire SENSORY unit. You gotta rely on your intuition and figure it out that way, and by then , it's too late, as Exploding clone, Totsuka, Amaterasu, all finish the match. Good luck to people at Konan and Kimimaro's level facing the second best genjutsu user of all time. </p><p>Lol, looking at this whole thread, It's like I don't know what to do with you guys. It's amazing how in this thread we have people claiming Itachi's genjutsu isn't legendary, downplaying the speed feats of Totsuka, claiming Itachi isn't obito's level when the dude was surprised by Itachi's planning (while not knowing about the Koto plan) and admitted that had Itachi been equipped with full knowledge OBito would be dead. Mind you, amaterasu nearly one shot obito, even if he used Kamui like the databook implies, it took him wallowing in pain and falling to the GROUND in more pain before he finally countered it. In an actual battle he would have been dead to Totsuka during his screaming. Mind you, claiming If Itachi could kill Obito in his life he would have is pure ignorance, as we saw regardless of Yata and Totsuka, he HAD KOTO. What would have happened if Itachi simply put the crow inside sasuke instead of naruto? He already showed the ability to program his attacks to respond to obito's sharingan. Obito approaches sasuke as per canon, and then kotoamatsukami one shots. I dare anyone to argue that Obito can resist the ultimate genjutsu in existence bar Infinite Tsykuyomi. It's obvious that Itachi didn't have the intel on Kamui, it's obvious that The Akatsuki is something he entrusted naruto to defeat with the help of his allies, and he also clearly wanted to reserve the use of koto for his brother, just like it was stated in the canon, for the same reason he let him survive the uchiha massacre and wanted to die by his hand in the first place. </p>