<div class="quote"><i> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: Name me ONE ninjutsu or genjutsu in this manga that wasn't amplified by the users having access to more chakra... I'll wait. </p> </i></div>
<p>Why? You haven't named a Genjutsu that has shown to be different through the amplification of more Chakra with clear proof that is the reason it's different. Ninjutsu is irrelevant. Ninjutsu is to Genjutsu, like apple trees are to apples. An apple isn't a apple tree and an apple tree isn't an apple. Genjutsu isn't Ninjutsu. Ninjutsu isn't Genjutsu. So what Ninjutsu is and does, is irrelevant. </p><p>"Ninjutsu is the most nebulous of the three, and may most simply be described as anything that is (not) genjutsu or taijutsu." </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: Kakashi's 5 clones are way weaker than naruto's same 5 clones. </p> </i></div>
<p>In what regard? Physically, it depends on how physically stronger Naruto is than Kakashi, which will never change even with all the Chakra in the world. Of course the Chakra reserves is a given since Naruto has more Chakra than Kakashi, so of course his clones will have more Chakra than Kakashi's clones. I don't see your point in this statement. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: Ephemeral gets stronger with 100 percent Itachi, as per, I don't know, literally the MECHANICS of genjutsu and ninjutsu in the first place ???? </p> </i></div>
<p>Ninjutsu is irrelevant. The mechanics of Genjutsu don't show me that evidence. But lets pretend Itachi could for a moment. Why would he? Itachi had thirty percent of his natural reserves. He could of used anywhere from 0-20% of his reserves if he wanted. If he was at a hundred percent, you really think Itachi would ever waste more than that on a Genjutsu that can easily be broken by an ally while those allies are present? My boy Itachi would never be so dumb. So what's your point in this? Cause evn if Itachi could, he wouldn't. He has low reserves. I don't even see Itachi spending five percent of his Chakra on a Genjutsu that isn't Tsukuyomi. That's even if he could, which I haven't seen evidence that he could. </p>

<p>You're just being difficult because you don't want to lose the debate. Combat is making completely valid points and you are doing this to get a rise out of him. If this is what you call debating you should step away from the thread for awhile. </p><p>Also the comparison to Ninjutsu is not irrelevant. At all. </p><p>https://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Genjutsu </p><p>https://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Ninjutsu </p><p>https://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Chakra </p>

<p>@Combat </p><p>As I said before, shadow clones destroy your assumption that all jutsu get stronger with more chakra. I noticed you changed the question slightly with the word "amplify" to try and pull one over, not happening man. Also, @James is right in that you haven't proven your case, so yes you are assuming. </p><p>Don't know why I have to address this, but nerfed edo Hashirama and Tobirama could not use their stronger ninjutsu, obviously. That's kinda a pointless comparison. On Ebisu's diagram, from what I recall, Ebisu explained how you can efficiently mold just enough chakra to produce a technique and not waste chakra, molding too much. </p><p>Ebisu was essentially telling Naruto he was wasting chakra when producing shadow clones. Not that he was strengthening them, it's the same jutsu. </p><p>Again, I really don't know why you are making such a big deal of what I said about Naruto trying to reset his chakra. I don't get your motivation or argument. Furthermore, I don't get why you are trying to make like control means just as much amount for genjutsu. If it is the case, show me proof for all instances. </p><p>Now, please remember that character statements don't necessarily equal feats. Remember there is a difference between what a character believes and what is actually true, not forgetting that characters can also have opinions and yes, be wrong as well. </p><p>I also see that you are getting confused between, "strengthening a technique with more chakra" and "using a different technique that requires more chakra". Techniques are designed in a specific way that have certain requirements to produce the desired effect. Adding more chakra, changes the equation so to say, it's not as simple as you may think. </p><p>Note: I see you have not mentioned how you have misinterpreted my Nirvana comparison. Or some of the other points. This is not to call you out per Se. Yet, I feel there is still not a true understanding here, so I ask you to address it. </p>

<p>@Combat, @James, @Ninja, @Flat: On this whole chakra dispute with Itachi. Fine, let’s say he had 30 percent chakra reserves and not 100. Let’s say that in this fight he has 100 percent and go from there. The crux of the matter is, no matter how much you try to sugarcoat it, that genjutsu is cast and can be released with great chakra control. The amount of chakra that the genjutsu caster or releaser has certainly determines how long the genjustu can last, but I will argue that Oro, combined with Kimi and Konan, have more chakra than Itachi. I have PROVEN over and over again in my (still-continuing) rundown, that there are ways to displace the genjutsu. @Combat, @Flat, if you choose to come at me on this, I have evidence and I have logic to back me up. If harping on Itachi’s lack of chakra reserves is something you want to do, then do it. But literally, genjutsu being cast because of chakra or whatever doesn’t even make a dent because in the long run, ITACHI STILL LOSES. His genjustu can be negated. He’s not invincible. </p>

<p>@Faito </p><p>I do like your enthusiasm. What I have noticed, is that there are clear differences in how those on Itachi's side think of mechanics with regards to basic things like chakra, genjutsu and ninjutsu. To prevent this from turning toxic I ask all users here refrain from insults, exaggerations and other toxic behavior. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>FlatZone wrote: Also the comparison to Ninjutsu is not irrelevant. At all. </p><p>https://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Genjutsu </p><p>https://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Ninjutsu </p><p>https://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Chakra </p> </i></div>
<p>You're own sources killed your argument. "Ninjutsu is the most nebulous of the three, and may most simply be described as anything that is not genjutsu or taijutsu." ~ Ninjutsu. Ninjutsu according to your source, is what Genjutsu isn't. So it is irrelevant. </p><p>I also don't know who you are referring to when it comes to not wanting to lose the debate. I already said I believe Itachi would likely win. So that statement makes no sense if it is referring too me. All I'm doing is pointing out flawed logic on my side. No one has really countered the points I made on why I think Itachi can win, so I don't really need argue about that. However, I do need to cut loose any excess baggage that sinks my side in the deep end. </p>

<p>@Combat, @Ninja: I’m sorry. My bad. I perhaps should’ve stated the same thing with a modicum of professionalism. I apologize. </p>

<p>@JamesSenpai </p><p>I'm really doing my best to stay patient here... JIRAIYA CLEARLY Stated that genjutsu is an advanced ninjutsu, and I have said that multiple times. Why ignore unbiased character statements from credible characters that the author is using to directly inform readers on the mechanics of his manga, as well as things I have repeated in my post more than once. Genjutsu and ninjutsu is also clearly shown in the diagram Ebisu presented in Chapter 90 and no distinction is made between the two. So Concession accepted. </p><p>Your last point just proves my point. If the goal is to end the fight, Itachi can put as much chakra into his genjutsu as he wants. Who cares if he exhausts alot of his stamina if he won the fight. He has time to rest afterward in most scenarios. He was facing 4 opponents, arguably holding back, and was just using thirty percent of strength. He couldn't afford to make ephemeral as strong as he wanted or he would overextend. No ninja is dumb enough to put all their chakra in one technique unless they are certain it will end the fight. The manga clearly showed you that genjutsu requires advanced chakra control, but the mechanics are the same. Advanced chakra control just means weaving signs for manipulating yin release chakra is difficult for most ninja. Itachi has perfect chakra control, that much is obvious. Even if the minimum chakra required for Ephemeral is 1 percent of his overall reserves, it was clearly shown in Ebisu's diagram that the user can mould more than the minimum amount of chakra for ninjutsu AND/OR GENJUTSU to increase the technique, sufficient they have the chakra control to manipulate the additional chakra. Itachi with just 30 percent of his chakra at best would only go up to maybe 10 percent with the Ephemeral he used against Naruto. Furthermore, Itachi clearly layered the genjutsu. He wanted to use MS but couldn't so he switched to a genjutsu with a lower minimum chakra cost to one that would put naruto to sleep. Naruto then tried to resist, and Itachi himself commended his attempted application of Genjutsu:Kai. In order to sustain a genjutsu on someone in the first place, you need to continously contribute chakra, and being at thirty percent of his strength, he is limited. </p><p>Furthermore, you missed the point of why I brought this up in the first place. Itachi , as you yourself understand well (something I commended you for), has ALOT more going on then just genjutsu. His clone feints are UNDETECTABLE as far these opponents are concerned, and in fact are undetectable to most characters in the verse. Yeah, I said it. EMS Sasuke who can follow Juubito couldn't see Itachi's clone+ substitution technique. Let's take a trip back to Part one for a second, and @FaitoMai, this applies to you as well. In Chapter 6, Sasuke explains that Substitution technique is a feat of the user's Body Flicker combined with "skill" in order to create an optical illusion. The fact that ITachi isn't faster than Juubito outside of the context of his substitution jutsu allows me to believe that Substitution has a space/time component to it, otherwise people can't just randomly grab perfectly sliced logs. In addition, Zaku implied that substitution jutsu can be used in mid-air (where one can't use their running speed). So I beleive the technique is a combination of Body flicker as the parent technique, then some space/time component, and "skill". Itachi's skill with the technique makes him achieve a clone feinting speed greater than that of Juubito, as what he did was essentially: </p><p>He Made a crow clone without kabuto seeing despite the fact Itachi was right in front of him. Grabbed said crow clone and switched places with it the instant before Kabuto stabbed him. Said Crow clone then recorded the izanami experience, and because crow clones are shadow clones, the experience goes back to the user. The fact that Sasuke NOR Kabuto saw or sensed those actions proves that Itachi is on another level. His handseal speed is already untracebale. His clone formations are also untraceable. Clones always spawn next to the user, but no one has EVER seen Itachi's clones form on panel. He did the same thing in all three of the fights we have seen him used clones. Spawned a shadow clone without Kakashi, Asuma, or Kurenai noticing, used substitution jutsu, and got behind Kakashi. Spawned a shadow clone during a goddamm Shuriken CLASH with Sasuke, Sasuke didn't see the clone. Itachi grabbed said clone and swapped out with it and hid somehwere (probably underground) and then reappeared when he wanted. Kabuto I already explained </p><p>The reason most ninja don't use substitution in high level battles is because it's normally easily detected by competent ninja. But a genius like Itachi is so skilled he can clone feint at speeds greater than Juubito's shunshin. </p><p>Itachi uses his genjutsu as feints as well. He can easily take out Kimimaro and Orochimaru with his clone feints+ yakasa bead smokescreens,+ Totsuka alone. At that point, he can finish Konan with Ephemeral if he wanted to, because now he has no one else to worry about and can overextend his chakra input to make it potent as hell, and layer it like he did to Naruto to put her to sleep. </p><p>@Ninja of War </p><p>I very clearly distinguished my points carefully, thank you. I said name ONE jutsu that doesn't get amplified by having access to more chakra. Shadow clones split the user's chakra. It still requires chakra to be MOULDED. The more chakra you mould, the more clones you make. One shadow clone requires 50 percent of your stamina. Making more requires you to exponentially divide your chakra down, and it's dangerous if your max reserves are too low. Name one time we have seen Kakashi able to make 1000 clones like naruto can for practical use in battle. The chakra is equally distributed to each clone through chakra control. The fact that naruto has more chakra in comparison to Kakashi means he can more clones without risk, and each clone still has a lot of firepower to boot. The basic clone technique is different and has a different purpose, but even THEN, simply moulding 30 percent created more clones. The user gets to CHOOSE how much chakra to mould for the technique. The issue with naruto is that he can only manipulate 10 percent of his chakra max at a time for many handseal based techniques, so he can't make 3 clones in one sitting. He would have to conduct the technique 3 separate times to make 3 clones, so he wastes both time and stamina compared to Sasuke and Sakura in making the same technique. You failed to account for how chakra control works and the nature of the technique. Genjutsu isn't a clone technique. We have SEEN that putting more chakra into genjutsu makes it more powerful. Itachi can dilate time as much as he wants as stated in Tsykuyomi, but increasing it from 0 to 24 hrs to 72 hrs to 100 years each takes more chakra. His perfect chakra control allows him to manipulate as much chakra as he moulds. The genjutsu itself is so powerful because of his skill and the fact that his MS eye is the required medium. </p><p>Like I said, the instant naruto got kyuubi's chakra, his "100 percent" stamina increased and he was able to create gamabunta despite the fact he is only able to manipulate ten percent of his chakra. Ten percent of base naruto is way less than ten percent of base naruto + kurama, which is why he could summon gamabunta despite having no increase in chakra control skill. </p><p>Your entire argument is on the basis that Itachi, an experienced genjutsu specialist, is an idiot, and naruto is also an idiot. Naruto is smart. He was moulding more chakra as Jiraiya told him, which is why dust kicked up, and with more chakra available he was able to manipulate more of it using chakra control. The more stamina he moulds the more likely it is he can break it via genjutsu:kai. Genjutsu Kai isn't a clone technique, it's an application of the user's strength in attempt to bring their chakra flow to a stop in order to break genjutsu. Your whole thing about "resetting" is unsupported. Jiraiya clearly stated that you have to DISTURB the chakra flow first before you can bring it to a stop. Disturbing requires FORCE. Itachi clearly commended naruto's growth and was geninuely surprised that he could resist the genjutsu, which means he was conducting Genjutsu:Kai correctly. Itachi has less chakra so he is basically using a rock to control naruto's chakra but he controls that rock skillfully. With just a small amount of his chakra he made a powerful genjutsu. Naruto has more charka so he is using a mountain of force insead of a rock, but his weaker control causes him to control and apply the force less effectively. The playing field was completely level yet Itachi still won. </p><p>I remember the Karin scene well. You can normally sense abnormal chakra flow in a victim through chakra sensing. You are right, The yin release chakra is parasite, and Itachi is skilled enough to make said parasite undetectable to sensors as he manipulates his victim's chakra flow. The output of genjutsu like any technique depends on the chakra control and chakra moulded, but clearly the yin release chakra itself varies in quality from genjutsu user to genjutsu user, and that is also dependent the nature transformation step. Chakra control is just not just being able to manipulate all your moulded chakra, it's also the quality with which you manipulate it and transform it into a ninjutsu or genjutsu with the desired effects. This explains why Tsunade can't make genjutsu despite expert chakra control. she is not skilled in the type of Yin release required to make Genjutus, just like Shikmaru who is also a yin release type also can't make genjutsu despite having no chakra control issues. </p><p>You also missed the point about Part one Hashi. His DEEP FOREST EMERGENCE was noticably smaller than the DEEP FOREST EMERGENCE he could cast with 100 percent of his strength available. It's the same technique yet it was made more potent when he had more strength available. The skill component is perfectly making all your moulded chakra turn into life energy to create trees. Adding more chakra available combined with perfect chakra control means he can make a denser and larger forest at the expense of more stamina expended... </p><p>
On your Temple of Nirvana post, I thought it was something I clearly explained though. Itachi can cast genjutsu through his fingers or through his sharingan or MS and can make his techniques undetectable by sensors.... and was portrayed to be able to control entire alliance subdivisions. His skill with sharingan genjutsu is unprecedented, which is why Oro was shocked at how hard it was for him to break out. I don't find Nirvana impressive at all for two reasons at least in comparison to Itachi. 1)Kabuto had access to more or less 100 percent of his strength when he cast it. Doesn't mean the Nirvana he used was at it's strongest, but even so he was SURPRISED that Guy and Kakashi sensed it and broke it so easily. Even Sakura and Shikamaru did the same thing, and Sakura implied that Shikamaru did so because he actually knew how to break genjutsu, yet you have yet to confirm that naruto knew how to break genjutsu back then. Itachi was at thirty percent, so his options were limited. 2) Mindset. What was Itachi's goal? Was he even going all out? Was he trying to capture all of them in ephemeral? His role was to stall Team 7, not incapacitate, he works for Konoha. In my opinion, he casted ephemeral on naruto to test his growth while still painting himself as a villain. He knew that Chiyo and Sakura could release him if need be. I already proved that Itachi basically had 30 percent intellect (heh) in that fight as well. Kakashi's clone feinting is something he is experienced with and has already planned contingencies for in the past. Doesn't make him omniscient of course, but he didn't at all seem as calculating as he normally is in that fight. </p><p>
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@Flatzone thank you for posting those links, even the wiki clearly states what I have been essentially saying this whole time. Also @FaitoMaito, It's okay, I'm just trying to be less irritated myself, it's just a naruto discussion and should bring enjoyment not anger. </p>

<p>This debate is completely out of wack, they should have eliminated edo tensei completely. There is no way itachi could take on Orochimaru and two edo tenseis at the same time, this is completely illogical and shows a bit of bias towards itachi. Orochimaru is a incredible foe that has a lot more techniques than he did back when fighting itachi when he was in the akatsuki, and i would even say that itachi could not beat him without ems. </p>

<p>@Sinister </p><p>Completely illogical? Bias? Your post itself is biased and lacks any substance or evidence. Orochimaru is an incredible foe with a wide arsenal of techniques who got one shotted by Itachi twice in the canon, yet you think Itachi vs Oro 1v1 is a fair fight. Totally not biased though. </p><p>I have shown zero bias. Meanwhile I can cite bias in this thread easily. -Most of the opposition has cited shortcomings from a thirty percent Itachi who wasn't fighting in a serious fight. -Ignores untraceable clone feinting. -ignores Totsuka blade speed feats and that it's a Sword of Kusanagi. -Claims thirty percent Itachi performs the same as 100 percent Itachi lmao. -Claims genjutsu isn't ninjutsu lmao... https://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Yin_Release Checkmate. Ebisu, Jiraiya, Itachi, Gengetsu Hozuki accepted their concessions. Yin release ITSELF is a nature transformation which inherently falls under ninjutsu. Yet I am supposed to beleive their fanfiction about genjutsu and ninjutsu working differently, lmao. It's the same stuff, just different effects and goals. Even in Chapter 567 pg 14, Kakashi clearly states that it requires ALOT of chakra for Obito to control multiple bijuu level enitities at once, proving the direct relationship between chakra output and genjutsu potency with the sharingan genjutsu. It's equally a feat of skill/chakra control and chakra amount. Obito has the reserves because he has hashirama cells. Come at me with some real counterarguments instead of copping out. </p>