<p>@Loneninja </p><p>I could care less if a handful of moderators on one online naruto community thought myself and my argument was stupid, because their argument doesn't agree with the manga, period. When a counter-argument that actually makes sense with the rest of the manga is presented, I'll reconsider. and no, only you go by that terrible logic when it's convenient for you. And lol, that same moderator also claimed the point of view other users in the ridoku sage mode thread was stupid, yet one other moderator actually agreed with the claims in that thread. I'm honestly sick of your strawman logic. Clearly, even moderators can disagree with each other. </p><p>And Idk what to tell you, reread my posts, you clearly didn't understand anything I said based on your points 2-4, and even completely missed the context. I have repeated them enough times at this point. I even cited the moderator quotes multiple times too. </p>

<p>Lol, your argument don't make sense though. "Chakra concentrated in your arm boosts movement speed". "Even though all the derivations are attack based, Chidori is speed based even though all derivations of a technique is based off the original". Like what? You're sitting here saying not just mine, but everyone who disagrees with you, as logic that don't make sense when the only logic we all see not making sense is your guys. Chakra concentrated in the arm does not boost speed. If Chidori was speed based then all it's derivations would be speed based since all derivations are always based off the original. All your arguments are just twisted statements and I'm not the only one who sees it. You can call it strawman logic all you want, but at the end of the day, this is the wiki. If you have a problem with it's logic then go somewhere else. If you don't want to, then deal with it. </p><p>No you missed the context. 2-4 show that. You keep putting words in my mouth. You keep saying debunked when nothing has been debunked except the words you put in my mouth. You twist statements. That's all you can do to win a debate. Too bad no one has taken you seriously on this Chidori claim except me. But even I'm at the point where I'm just like "Lol why argue with someone who clearly just wants to argue and not have an actual debate and doesn't have sufficient evidence". Like your whole counter argument is basically "Plot, kishimoto logic" like lmao. </p><p>P.s. I don't know why you brought the point about Mods disagreeing with each other. They clearly don't disagree with your claim being false. </p>

<p>@Lone </p><p>To my understanding, it was always that the chidori requires speed to be effective. That being, more speed == more power for chidori, also trading speed for the ability to counter-attack. Now, I don't agree with @Combat's interpretation that the chidori boosts speed, since it is described only to be concentrated lightning chakra focused in the users hand. </p><p>It is not concentrated in the users feet or enhancing nerve transmissions as lighting armor is. Coupled with the fact that the chidori is a piercing attack and needs a straight line of attack, I don't see the alleged speed boost. It's clear to me that the user needs significant speed to perform it as a prerequisite. </p>

<p>@Ninja of War I'll try this again: </p><p>Except all the translations clearly show Minato and kakashi attributing the speed to the technique itself. And your point about speed = more power for chidori is debunked because every technique benefits from extra momentum. more momentum means more speed and force, that is basic physics. Ohnoki literally lightened Ei so he could have more speed to blitz edo Madara, and then increased his weight at the last second for the absolute maximum power so they could bust susano'o. it was clearly stated by Gai that the TECHNIQUE pushes the limits of the human body, or alternatively in another translation," it's secret lies in the impossible speed of it's stroke". The context is always the technique when the user is running, not just the user. Not just the arm. You are literally going against the manga. I see the logic of your interpretation but it's been debunked. nothing says the user has to be already "fast" as prerequisite. Why? The argument of you and others has three problematic implications: </p><p>1:Ninjas faster than part one weightless rock lee always run at a slower speed than their max speed to avoid tunnel vision. Nothing substantiates the claim, and it's also illogical. Why would ninjas intentionally run slower and give their opponents more time to react to their speed blitzes? </p><p>2) That The rasengan doesn't benefit from the speed of the user, as they clearly are seen running in a straight line with the technique much like chidori, and yet there isn't any tunnel vision issues. The faster naruto runs with rasengan, the more force that will be imparted when he tags his opponent with it. The speed at which rasengan is applied is a good benefit to have, but it isn't absolutely necessary to run, the jutsu itself has enough destructive power, as seen when naruto was STANDING still and nearly killed kabuto with it. Do you think that early shippuden naruto is slower than part one weightless rock lee? Do you seriously think that Minato himself is slower than weightless rock lee, yet we have seen minato running in a straight line with his rasengan more than once without any tunnel vision, and we know for a fact that rasengan does not boost the user's speed. Minato's running speed and kunai throwing speed is faster than kakashi, even when kakashi is using chidori. The rasengan and chidori are used in almost identical ways by characters faster than rock lee, and yet only chidori has the speed references. That is enough proof. </p><p>3) That rock lee and might guy are idiots, because clearly they both have run at their top speed in a straight line without any noted tunnel vision issues. Where was rock lee's tunnel vision when he entered the 5th gate and blitzed the living hell out of gaara in a straight line, and then kicked him into the air? But yet with the interpretations used by the opposition, rock lee is now claiming that simply running in a straight line causes tunnel vision? where is the logic in that? IT's obvious that the reason chidori causes tunnel vision is because it doesn't boost the user's reflexes/visual perception, which is why the SHARINGAN, the pinnacle of reflex boost and perception, fixes the issue. All other techniques that have boosted speed to ridiculous levels, like bijuu chakra cloaks, the eight gates, or raiton armor have been explicitly stated or implied to boost all of the user's physical traits, including their reflexes. We literally see that 8 gates and 7 gates guy blitzed juubidara,in guess what, a STRAIGHT LINE. Gaara clearly stated that Guy's movements were inhuman. so this argument has been debunked. Traveling in a straight line at a high speed isn't the issue, it's doing those two things with a speed boost that your reflexes can't handle. </p><p>In the next section, we have the quotes that opposition has consistently failed to address properly. Translation 1 from minato chapter 240: "And one more thing kakashi, about that new jutsu'<i> of yours, you shouldn't use it anymore. From what I saw, it's a strike with a single focus. '</i>It certainly has speed and power, but it makes you move too fast to ascertain the opponent's counterattack. IT is still "imperfect" </p><p>Translation two: </p><p>"A thrust all concentrated in one point, of course you have the destructive power and speed, but because of the speed of your movements are so fast, you can't see the opponent's counter. Because of that, it is an incomplete jutsu" </p><p>This interpretation has more ambiguity, but is essentially identical to the first. The jutsu is the context of minato attributing speed and power to kakashi. By the logic of the opposition, minato is talking about kakashi's physical strength, which doesn't make sense. Minato also is more than aware of kakashi's normal running speed. After all the time they have been together, why would kakashi running in a straight line with his best speed suddenly be an issue? It's obvious that with chidori, kakashi's speed increased. Which is why minato banned the technique. You're argument that chidori needs the user's speed to be at a certain level as a prereq is further debunked, because we have seen chidori and raikiri being used by sasuke and kakashi when they were standing still, and they have even used raikiri/chidori to add raiton chakra to kunai and other weapons. so it's been debunked. IT's obvious that once they start running with it, the speed boost becomes the issue if their sharingan isn't active to add the necessary reflex boost, which is why its too dangerous to use in battle for sharinganless kakashi. it has absolutely nothing to do with his normal running speed. </p><p>Then there is kakashi's statement from chapter 240: </p><p>" With this jutsu, I can finish them in an instant. It's named after your alias" </p><p>Like, I genuinely don't understand how this isn't clear. why is speed attributed to the jutsu MULTIPLE times if the speed is supposedly just the user's regular running speed? There is no reason to claim that the speed is the greatest asset of chidori doesn't offer a speed boost. By your logic, raikiri is practically useless, because kakashi can simply use his "rock lee speed" and a katana and run at this "impossible speed" in a straight line and slice his opponent in half, without having to use such a chakra taxing technique like chidori. Mahiru has average durability, a katana to the neck would decapitate him. Raikiri is a raiton technique and all raiton techniques are known for their penetrative power/cutting power. the lightning chakra itself provides that, nothing says you need to run for the jutsu to cut through objects effectively, the speed boost is the greatest asset because speed gives your opponent less time to react. </p><p>The claims that other raiton techniques don't boost speed is irrelevant, because chidori was explicitly stated and shown to boost speed. Nothing says chidori variants don't boost the speed of the user, and half the time we have seen that, guess what, the user IS STANDING STILL. Almost Every time I have seen kakashi or sasuke apply shape control, whether sasuke forms a straight line, or kakashi forming a raikiri dog against pain, they were standing in a single position. Even the raikage can stand still with his raiton armor, so it's been debunked. the speed boost comes into play once they start running, like any speed boosting technique. Kakashi's purple lightning isn't stated to be a variation of raikiri either, so it's something completely different. </p><p>And finally, the chakra to the arm argument. See the thing most people miss is that when the chidori/raikri is first formed, you can clearly see there is a circle of chakra at the user's feet, and while it dissappears, that could easily be what's contributing to the speed. It doesn't have to be constantly visible on panel in order for it to have boosted the user's speed. @LoneNinja No I don't have to go anywhere else. You literally missed the context of my posts, and I see you haven't even bothered to go back and read, or otherwise didn't have the time. So I could care less about most of what you just said. This forum allows for users to have their own interpretations of the wiki/manga, so the chidori boosts speed until someone actually proves me wrong with something other than "the mods disagree". Your entire argument is based on people reacting to raikiri, which makes no sense because all the people who reacted to it were jounin level, the same level as part one kakashi. It literally took mahiru like 17 tries to finally get the timing down to react to kakashi's chidori. haku's speed with the mirror technique has been referenced to be extremely fast in both the manga and databook, so it's not surprising she intercepted kakashi. My point about the moderators is simple. That same moderator who thinks my argument is stupid also thought another one of my arguments was stupid, yet another MODERATOR agreed with the claims. Even if they both disagree with me on this topic, simply being a moderator doesn't debunk my claim, what debunks my claim is evidence from the manga properly presented and explained. I have yet to see any coherent argument from the opposition, and every time difficult points are raised, the argument gets avoided. </p>

<p>@Combat </p><p>Note: Please stop with saying my logic or points have been "debunked". I clearly said my points are to my understanding. This isn't a contest, there is no prize for trying to "win" this argument. </p><p>Also, you said "..so the chidori boosts speed until someone actually proves me wrong..." No pal, none of the chapters and statements you presented directly state that the chidori boosts speed. Speed is thrown around yes, but where is the causation? Where is the mechanism mentioned? </p><p>And no, you can't simply compare speed boost ability to other raiton techniques now. Why? Because techniques like lightning armor have a mechanism for a speed boost, enhanced nerve transmission. </p><p>For clarity, my argument that more speed == more power for the chidori. Is based on the penetration power of the chidori. Chidori is a piercing attack, meaning it's main ability is to pierce through defenses. With more speed, then the chidori has greater penetrating power. Why do I say this? Look at Sasuke vs Gaara in part 1. Sasuke had to use all the available space inside the arena to build up enough speed to pierce through gaara's sand. The straight-line attack only also supports this. </p><p>Which is not the same as a rasengan. A rasengan is a grinding attack, not a piercing attack. Rasengan's main ability is not to pierce through defenses. </p><p>You need to come up with a mechanism for the speed boost for your argument, with evidence that supports it. It's not good enough to say otherwise, while there is evidence that contradicts it. </p><p>So can we just have an honest conversation? </p>

<p>@Ninja of War </p><p>You said this : "And no, you can't simply compare speed boost ability to other raiton techniques now. Why? Because techniques like lightning armor have a mechanism for a speed boost, enhanced nerve transmission." </p><p>The fact you said this shows you obviously did not understand what I said. I suggest you reread this: iT's obvious that the reason chidori causes tunnel vision is because it doesn't boost the user's reflexes/visual perception, which is why the SHARINGAN, the pinnacle of reflex boost and perception, fixes the issue. All other techniques that have boosted speed to ridiculous levels, like bijuu chakra cloaks, the eight gates, or raiton armor have been explicitly stated or implied to boost all of the user's physical traits, including their reflexes. We literally see that 8 gates and 7 gates guy blitzed juubidara,in guess what, a STRAIGHT LINE. Gaara clearly stated that Guy's movements were inhuman. so this argument has been debunked. Traveling in a straight line at a high speed isn't the issue, it's doing those two things with a speed boost that your reflexes can't handle. </p><p>And the sasuke point is debunked because that is the only time we ever see that happening, and its obvious because gaara had a sturdy defense. Kakashi never ran far away from mahiru or zabuza or Deva Pain to build up speed for penetrative power, the raiton chakra was enough to cut those foes. Not to mention, at a certain point every runner has a maximum velocity, nothing suggests that he needed ALL the space to reach his top speed. Still doesn't change the fact that those two quotes directly show there is a speed boost, because it causes tunnel vision. You also didn't address any of my other critical points, it doesn't matter if rasengan is a grinding attack, more momentum = more force. It's basic physics. try throwing a baseball at 5 miles per hour versus one and 40 miles per hour and see which one hits harder. </p><p>There isn't any prize, nor am I trying to win one. But other users make it seem like winning over moderators suddenly changes my argument. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: @Ninja of War </p><p>
We literally see that 8 gates and 7 gates guy blitzed juubidara,in guess what, a STRAIGHT LINE. Gaara clearly stated that Guy's movements were inhuman. so this argument has been debunked. Traveling in a straight line at a high speed isn't the issue, it's doing those two things with a speed boost that your reflexes can't handle. </p><p>And the sasuke point is debunked because that is the only time we ever see that happening, and its obvious because gaara had a sturdy defense. Kakashi never ran far away from mahiru or zabuza to build up speed for penetrative power, the raiton chakra was enough to cut those foes. Still doesn't change the fact that those two quotes directly show there is a speed boost, because it causes tunnel vision. You also didn't address any of my other critical points, it doesn't matter if rasengan is a grinding attack, more momentum = more force. It's basic physics. try throwing a baseball at 5 miles per hour versus one and 40 miles per hour and see which one hits harder. </p><p>There isn't any prize, nor am I trying to win one. But other users make it seem like winning over moderators suddenly changes my argument. </p> </i></div>
<p>Look, I'm really done with points that hinge on tangents and exaggerations. 8th gate Guy had attacks that weren't in a straight line. So enough said there. Sasuke point is debunked because it only happened one time??? What??? Idk man, you call that a counter? Of course the amount of penetrative power you need depends on what you are trying to pierce. </p><p>Great sand defense needs more penetrative power over a body. </p><p>Also, since you are continuing this line of rebuttal, slinging "debunked" after you make a point, it made me lose interest in trying to converse with you. So, I'll address your "critical points" in short. </p><p>1) I don't know what point you are trying to make, as I never said anything like that. </p><p>2) Addressed already, rasengan does not rely on penetrative power. </p><p>3) Because the eight gates boosts speed? Because Lee and Guy's attacks are not penetrative ones? </p>

<p>@Ninja of War </p><p>My point number 1 is critical, all I'm saying is that the sharingan provides the reflex boost/perception boost so that the user of chidori doesn't suffer from tunnel vision due to the speed boost. Speed boosts cause tunnel vision unless they are accompanied by techniques that boost the nervous system. Most techniques do that, but kakashi screwed up in his technique design, which is why Minato told him to throw it out the window, it was incomplete. </p><p>Look, I'll try to keep my statements more clean, because at least you aren't using strawman arguments. </p><p>What does guy having attacks that aren't in a straight line have to do with my point exactly? kakashi has also been seen changing his direction while running with it. The issue is seeing the counter attack, nothing about the direction change. </p><p>There is a difference between speed and reflexes. The 8 gates boost speed and power yet there is no tunnel vision, which means the gates has a corresponding adaption for the user's nervous system. </p><p>So let me get this straight, kakashi literally got stabbed by pain's rod at point blank range and yet he immediately used raikiri with intent to kill, and are you implying that the raikiri cannot cut through pain without a running start? The technique is made of raition chakra, meaning it already has penetrative and cutting abilities, and raiton is often compared to fuuton in these qualities. Your argument seems to imply that speed is needed for raikiri to achieve something that it's already good at, cutting through things. I also already stated that more momentum =more force, and sasuke needed more force in general to get through a hard defense, but that doesn't suddenly mean that the technique doesn't give a speed boost. As I said, kakashi and sasuke have used the technique in other contexts and yet there is still dangerous tunnel vision associated with the technique when they start running. Kakashi clearly has stated his technique's speed can finish his opponents in an instant, he literally did so to 17 out of 18 targets.he wasn't using the speed for penetrative power, the jutsu already had that, he was using the speed to minimize his enemi'es reaction time. </p><p>My point about rasengan still stands. We see naruto and minato running in a straight line with the jutsu, and more speed = more momentum when they finally hit their opponent. You are missing the point. Minato and naruto are seen running at their TOP speed when using rasengan and yet they have suffered no tunnel vision. I have no reason to believe that they weren't running at their maximum velocity. when rasengan collides with the target, there is still concussive force before the technique begins grinding, and concussive force alone can kill people. running at 5 mph with a dense sphere in your hand and hitting an object will have less concussive force than running at 30 mph. </p><p>Your argument literally implies that rock lee's running speed causes tunnel vision, which I have already shown to be not true. the sasuke you referenced was shown and stated to have the same speed as weightless rock lee. rock lee never suffered tunnel vision, yet when he witnessed sasuke's chidori he clearly stated that he wouldn't use the speed "like that" because the technique does not stimulate his nervous system. The proof is that rock lee in the 5th gate is faster than sasuke wielding chidori, and yet rock lee doesn't experience tunnel vision despite lacking a sharingan, and that was when rock lee ran in a straight line. </p>

<p>@Ninja of War. </p><p>That's what I've been saying. This guy likes to takes something you said, and twist it to something you didn't even say. Either he is reading too much into what we say trying to find another meaning or he just spouts things to spout em. </p><p>Then he makes more stuff up that never was stated like Eight Gates boosting perception. He goes too far into things and if he had his way, we'd change a lot of techniques and give them abilities they never had. Even when everyone disagrees except two other people with one even saying perception isn't boosted for Eight Gates, he just says it's strawman logic and that everyone but him is wrong. Even when everyone sees how horrid his logic is, all he keeps saying is how we don't make sense when Chakra concentrated in the arm boosting leg speed makes 0 sense. His answer to that is "Kishimoto logic", lol. LIke we can use that to every argument he has too. Smh. </p><p>Obviously the Eighth Gate didn't show case Tunnel Vision simply because a) he can handle that speed or b) it didn't matter since he was moving so fast, no one was going to counter attack anyways. Tunnel vision is apparent for Chidori BECAUSE people can react to it with ease. Not many can react to Eight Gates and Eight Gate user's rarely attack in straight line where Tunnel Vision is stated to be apparent, and even when they do there's no counter attack waiting for them cause they're that fast. </p><p>I'm just going to use his own argument against him. I accept your concession on Chidori's variants, Sasuke's standstill Chidori, the horrid logic of chakra concentrated in the arm boosts your leg's speed, and how your argument makes no sense. </p>

<p>Chidori is a lightning jab. Raikiri is a faster one. The show deals quite a lot with the concept of exertion, this is a very draining technique because Kakashi is exerting 100% of his speed. Which in turn grants him tunnel vision (he's running at his body's maximum speed which is faster than his own perception) causing Minato to tell him to abandon the technique. The jutsu's power is directly related to the users speed. Simply covering your hand in lightning is not a jutsu, kid Kakashi could only generate enough power to make chidori an A-rank jutsu by increasing his momentum strengthening his lightnig jab (increased momentum = increased destruction, this is what makes Raikiri S-rank as opposed to chidori's A) . </p><p>... if chidori increases Sasuke's speed how fast is everyone who has grabbed his wrist while using it, Itachi deflected it into a wall then broke Sasuke's hand, Kakashi redirected Natuto and Sasuke's attacks into water towers </p><p>That being said the cutting nature of chidori would practically erase wind resistance (drag) so they would apear to move faster as their speed would no longer be dampened running into air molecules. </p>