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ALL POSTSChakra And It's Origins
<p>I was sitting here thinking about Kaguya, the Divine Tree/fruits and natural energy.
</p><p>I was thinking about how in the strictest sense chakra might be artificial/alien to the shinobi world and wondering how the divine tree got it's energy. However, the wiki suggests it's fed through the blood of lives lost in combat. So, I guess in a way, the tree and fruits are fed stamina (which in turn is molded into chakra)?
</p><p>Buuuut then I'm reading on the natural energy page that reference is made to the Divine Tree feeding off nature energy (though the reference is anime only) which, I guess makes chakra kind of parasitic?
</p><p>And then there's nature energy, which appears to have been the other form of energy native to the Shinobi World (alongside stamina). I wonder if the presence of the Divine tree interrupted what would have been an inevitable adoption of nature energy? Had the Otsutsuki clan never visited, perhaps senjutsu might be the norm?
</p><p>I dunno, I suppose I've been curious about a lot of aspects of it and hadn't found any robust discussion on the matter.
</p>
(Edited by Mrsunrider)
<div class="quote"><i>
<p>Littlegen wrote:
Shouldn't the Divine Tree from Naruto's world be over at least 2 millennium?
I remember them stating it was forbidden to consume the Fruit and that would only bloom once every 1000 years.
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</i></div>
<p>We don't really know. It's been 1000 years since Kaguya, but other than that we have no specific timelines. </p>
<p>We don't really know. It's been 1000 years since Kaguya, but other than that we have no specific timelines. </p>
(Edited by Thekillman)
<p>everything in naruto is contradictory, an example would be that the source material says that chakra came from the fruit of the shinju and that kaguya ate the shinju fruit and her sons gained chakra, and than her son hagoromo spread chakra around. yet it also states that every life form already possesses chakra in its individual parts, Physical and Spiritual energy. so based on this contradiction its safe to assume that chakra didn't actually originate from the fruit. its simply that the fruit grants those who eat of it the ability to merge the energies already present in there bodies
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(Edited by Actionmanrandell)
<p>Nah, no, it's not contradictory. Everyone possessing chakra was clearly referring to modern day, not the pre-Kaguya past.
</p>
(Edited by Elveonora)
Chakra and Earth... how did Hagoromo give its residents Chakra?
(Edited by Littlegen)
<p>@Littlegen Wasn't it literally stated that Hagoromo spread chakra among people using Ninshu? We don't know much about what Ninshu actually is, but, apparently(I think Kurama said this), it's similar to what Naruto did with Kurama's chakra in the war when he gave everyone chakra cloaks. It's something to note that, even after they were drained, the chakra he gave them didn't fully vanish, instead falling dormant and able to be rekindled. If they didn't already have chakra of their own, the results probably would've been something similar to what Hagoromo did when initially giving humanity chakra.
</p>
(Edited by 321Z3R0)
<p>So if chakra is an essential connection to the spirit and afterlife, maybe it's the case that while the Divine Tree could have been considered an invasive element, perhaps chakra is a naturally (or supernaturally) occurring phenomenon, that the Otsutsuki clan discovered and learned to cultivate?
</p><p>In the way <i>we</i> might seem supernatural to any pre-renaissance civilizations in our use of nuclear power, the Otsutsuki managed to detect and harness spiritual power (chakra) and maybe the Divine Tree is a technology for that purpose.
</p>
(Edited by Mrsunrider)
<div class="quote"><i>
<p>Actionmanrandell wrote:
yet it also states that every life form already possesses chakra in its individual parts, Physical and Spiritual energy.
</p>
</i></div>
<p>Everyone has spiritual and physical energy because they have a body and brain. There's nothing mystical about it. What hagoromo gave was some sort of spiritual component of chakra, something that would allow people to communicate on a deeper level than mere words. However, people used that power to bind their inner energies and form normal chakra instead. </p><p>Kishimoto uses the word "chakra" for a lot of things that are obviously not the same. From the chakra of the fruit (a finite supply of power that can be spread and recovered) to the chakra of people (a supply that regenerates but isn't lost) to the chakra of beasts (solid and flesh-like, self-regenerating). This makes it that there are many apparent contradictions, but closer inspection often reveals it's just inconsistent terminology. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>321Z3R0 wrote: @Littlegen Wasn't it literally stated that Hagoromo spread chakra among people using Ninshu? </p> </i></div>
<p>Yes, though the nature of this chakra makes it clear that it's not normal chakra. For one, people kept this gift and could pass it on through the ages. Yet normal chakra cannot do this. So what Hagoromo gave was more akin to a spirit or essence (similar to Biju essence in that regard), than regular chakra. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Mrsunrider wrote: perhaps chakra is a naturally (or supernaturally) occurring phenomenon, that the Otsutsuki clan discovered and learned to cultivate? </p> </i></div>
<p>The ingredients of chakra are everywhere. Nature energy is a normal phenomenon. Spiritual energy is simply the power of the mind and it's thoughts, experiences etc. Physical energy is simply generated by cells, their strength, chemical energy etc. Some sort of supernatural power from the Shinju allows binding these together into chakra (a substance with both physical and spiritual properties). However the Shinju is also a real, physical thing. So yes, chakra could've occurred naturally in some way. It didn't in the shinobi world, but it could've. </p>
<p>Everyone has spiritual and physical energy because they have a body and brain. There's nothing mystical about it. What hagoromo gave was some sort of spiritual component of chakra, something that would allow people to communicate on a deeper level than mere words. However, people used that power to bind their inner energies and form normal chakra instead. </p><p>Kishimoto uses the word "chakra" for a lot of things that are obviously not the same. From the chakra of the fruit (a finite supply of power that can be spread and recovered) to the chakra of people (a supply that regenerates but isn't lost) to the chakra of beasts (solid and flesh-like, self-regenerating). This makes it that there are many apparent contradictions, but closer inspection often reveals it's just inconsistent terminology. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>321Z3R0 wrote: @Littlegen Wasn't it literally stated that Hagoromo spread chakra among people using Ninshu? </p> </i></div>
<p>Yes, though the nature of this chakra makes it clear that it's not normal chakra. For one, people kept this gift and could pass it on through the ages. Yet normal chakra cannot do this. So what Hagoromo gave was more akin to a spirit or essence (similar to Biju essence in that regard), than regular chakra. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Mrsunrider wrote: perhaps chakra is a naturally (or supernaturally) occurring phenomenon, that the Otsutsuki clan discovered and learned to cultivate? </p> </i></div>
<p>The ingredients of chakra are everywhere. Nature energy is a normal phenomenon. Spiritual energy is simply the power of the mind and it's thoughts, experiences etc. Physical energy is simply generated by cells, their strength, chemical energy etc. Some sort of supernatural power from the Shinju allows binding these together into chakra (a substance with both physical and spiritual properties). However the Shinju is also a real, physical thing. So yes, chakra could've occurred naturally in some way. It didn't in the shinobi world, but it could've. </p>
(Edited by Thekillman)
<p>@killman:they arent inconsistancies. Chakra just takes many forms and has many properties. It can literally become water and fire. Wind and earth. It can create illusions or real solid objects.
</p>
(Edited by LegionZero)
<p>All Chakra is, is Physical energy mixed with Spiritual energy. Everyone had both before Chakra was a thing, but had no way of connecting the two to form Chakra. The tree gets that from the blood of others, or it's made of entirely of one of those energies and gets the other from the blood, or it already has both and just feeds on blood for reasons not specified. Either way, it forms a fruit out of those two energies that grant whoever eats it, Chakra.
</p>
(Edited by LoneNinja)
<div class="quote"><i>
<p>LoneNinja wrote:
All Chakra is, is Physical energy mixed with Spiritual energy. Everyone had both before Chakra was a thing, but had no way of connecting the two to form Chakra. The tree gets that from the blood of others, or it's made of entirely of one of those energies and gets the other from the blood, or it already has both and just feeds on blood for reasons not specified. Either way, it forms a fruit out of those two energies that grant whoever eats it, Chakra.
</p>
</i></div>
<p>Madara contradicts that definition. https://gyazo.com/83c5a69f818f257ab41c891e715abba1.png https://gyazo.com/d01c1e78187f01ea2e2517d09756fcec.png https://gyazo.com/40313149c312c96e8e6857e3a401f303.png </p><p>Kaguya herself, the first to wield Chakra, utilized Chakra itself to meld her internal energies. Chakra is needed to amplify Chakra for Jutsu. It feels like a retcon, where characters needed to originally meld their energies to produce Chakra, now it seems like there is an underlying "base" Chakra energy that is then amplified and given properties based on the energies used to amplify it. </p>
<p>Madara contradicts that definition. https://gyazo.com/83c5a69f818f257ab41c891e715abba1.png https://gyazo.com/d01c1e78187f01ea2e2517d09756fcec.png https://gyazo.com/40313149c312c96e8e6857e3a401f303.png </p><p>Kaguya herself, the first to wield Chakra, utilized Chakra itself to meld her internal energies. Chakra is needed to amplify Chakra for Jutsu. It feels like a retcon, where characters needed to originally meld their energies to produce Chakra, now it seems like there is an underlying "base" Chakra energy that is then amplified and given properties based on the energies used to amplify it. </p>
(Edited by Littlegen)