So I presume not above Kaguya, just in that specific tier? Otherwise there's no way prime Hamura beats Kaguya since he alone was needed for Hagoromo. About a 50/50 40/60 ratio for their power.
Why is Guy so low. 7 gates no diffed full power Kisame and 8 gates guy was destroying 6P Madara.
Guy is pretty high on the list already
8 gates should be a tier above
The Last Sasuke, in the novels (only actual info we have on his scaling, so if not using novels better to not even rank him tbh, and if you do not use the novels I don't understnd why is Hokage Kakashi ranked where he is), is stated as Kakashi's strongest student, which inherently puts him above TL Naruto and much more when it's just BSM TL Naruto.
Both Toneri and DMS Kakashi are much closer to BSM TL Naruto and Kaguya respectively than Juubidara is ever shown, implied or stated to be.
What'd be the reason for Hagoromo to be talking about his past, weaker self when he makes statements on the strength of others? He's dead, so the most likely assumption imo would be that he talks about when he dies or when he's at his strongest, not some other random version.
Why is Hamura there? I do know of the statement of 'The power of Hamura' by Toneri, and even though I'm not sure how decent it is, wouldn't that just put him next to Toneri?
KCM2 Naruto does not go above KCM2 Minato, who while nerfed has feats as relative to the superior BSM Naruto, and you have Base Minato much above Base Naruto.
Edo Nagato doesn't really have anything to put him there. His only thing that might put him above Itachi is just CT which is nothing more than a win con he wouldn't use in character at the beginning of a fight nor would have time to use. It's like saying Itachi Totsuka Blade ggs. And in every other important factor he shows relativity or inferiority.
Base Minato can go KCM2 level but it's a long ass topic.
Pain over OM Obito is pretty bad ngl. 'Strongest' statements just don't apply to Obito nor Itachi, and in feats he's inferior.
Shisui and Fugaku don't necessarily scale to Post-UCM Itachi. Best scaling they have is if you go by Shisui > 10 years pre-P1 Hiruzen meta by the novels, but even that only upscales him as "Probably able to beat [P1] Orochimaru".
When he fights in the war, Naruto is dividing his Chakra equally in 14 (13 clones + him). Chakra being directly correlated to physical abilities. Therefore, A3, Mu, Gengetsu, etc do not scale to Naruto. A3 has a whole narrative as being equal to the 8 tails, which Killer Bee in his first apparition outscales.
No version of Bee goes there. He's either a Sannin victim (By virtue of FKS Ay > FKS Bee) or a 3T Edo Itachi rival in the war just with his base, 3T Edo Itachi scaling to KCM clones who go above the past edos besides the Jinchuriki amped by Obito, and actual KCM Naruto level physicals in BM.
No version of Kakashi goes anywhere around there. If he's WA, he has scaling not only to WM Obito but in case that doesn't convince you for *reasons* he also has feats around KCM2 Naruto and to Minato when he uses Raikiri. By scaling to Guy he also has when Guy just punches Madara out of the Humanoid Susanoo.
7G Guy is complicated but mostly same as Kakashi, just goes next to him in most arcs but, always, below Kakashi, as the narrative is that he finally surpasses him with the eight gate.
SM Jiraiya is probably the version that scales to Orochimaru and Tsunade, not his Base, both by feats and by making coherency of multiple statements instead of just taking one.
8T Naruto > PA SM Naruto / Peak MS Sasuke by feats against Pain.
Tsunade > Sakura stands alone as the worst thing in the tierlist. d_vv in discord for further explanation.
I'd probably go for Danzo above FKS Kakashi but it's fine tbh.
Chino Chinoike is stated to force BP Sasuke to use his Susanoo and even gets feats against the Perfect Susanoo. Definitely much above Mid Kage.
Mifune scales to 3T FKS Sasuke, and therefore, around Darui. This is consistent with him later getting those feats on Hanzo.
Rest from Below Kage to below is decent ig. I mean, I have strong opinions on why I don't like it, but it isn't that there's some outrageous thing which makes it *bad*, it's just that you combine a lot of metas that are not made to be combined.
@Dyss00 Chino was pretty hard to scale tbh, but in your opinion where would you put her? she did force Sasuke to use his susano off rip at the very start of the fight in the novels which is impressive. The chinoke clan got defeated by the Uchiha clan but she is the strongest member of her clan because her clan was barbaric kind of like kimimaro’s for example and not trained ninja she was the only trained ninja of her clan but she fell victim to sharingan genjutsu very easily so any MS user or susano user should be above her.
I found that the hardest person to scale was actually Sakura because you would think she would be up there with Tsunade, but during her light novel, she fought a guy name kido and he had very similar feats to four tail Naruto but not as strong, and that novel pretty much proved that she cannot survive a small level bijuu bomb so she not above tailed beast level at all. Which is why I had to put her in mid kage. KIDO made a bomb that was so physically weak that it couldn’t even detonate and Sakura almost died from just the impact alone. And the bomb only destroyed two trees now imagine 4 tail Naruto could clear an entire forest. So We know for fact Sakura can’t survive a mini bijuu bomb from her novel so I put all tailed beast characters above her she’s not surviving a full one with positivity. Also it’s not stated not even once ever that Sakura surpassed Tsunade, she stated to be a better medical ninja during the war but even that’s false because Tsunade healed Shikamaru when Sakura with 9 tails chakra couldn’t even do it. Tsunade is also the granddaughter of Hashirama Senju and mito Uzumaki so she comes from 2 great clans and has massive chakra reserves she even has more chakra to alter her appearance 24/7 and she also has a lot more experience and has survived 3 great ninja wars. She also has better strength than Sakura she could pick up gamabunta’s sword and jump with it.
I am using novel info as well. I don’t want to weigh heavy on only one statement. But I put Naruto above because feats > statements. And we didn’t even get to see the last Sasuke fight . I also don’t think the power gap between the the two is massive just like the adult versions. They are most like equal. Even if kakashi did consider Sasuke his strongest student Kakashi he had not seen Sasuke in years when he left the village to go on his redemption arc and atone. Naruto still has better feats from fighting toneri while Sasuke has feats of fighting all kekkie genki users and destroying half a meteorite. Naruto has Both half’s of Kurama improved Taijutsu, better chakra control, can do shadow clones with one hand etc.
Retsuden novel hagoromo is the alive version in his prime with full power ten tails and the second one is spirit hagoromo who we see during the 4th war ninja war. Basically dead and alive versions. Spirit hagoromo obviously isn’t stronger and hagoromo would be the strongest ten tail jinchuriki because if we go by the novels when he cut the meteorite in half it amplified his chakra reserves and cured his chakra illness
Hamura should be relative to hagoromo he should be like Toneri x10
KCM2 Naruto is definitely above kcm Minato. He has better mastery of the chakra arms, can use bijuu bombs unlike Minato and can infuse sage chakra
Edo Nagato > Edo itachi, he did have help against him and that version of Nagato was controlled and had no mobility. Imagine if he had full control how powerful he would be.
Orange mask Obito was cautious of Itachi he’s not above pain. Pain has better Destructive Capabilities and more special abilities.
Considering this: "This wasn't an opponent he could go against with naked flesh"
She at least is more dangerous to Sasuke than 1E Post-God Tree Juubidara, who Sasuke doesn't even use the Susanoo against
Now, Sasuke's toolkit does better than most's against Juubidara, so the comparison isn't *all* that fair, as Madara's hax (ex.: Limbo, TSO) could put him above. But, considering he has better abilities and is still less threatening for Sasuke (and a stronger one, but not really much we can do with that information), we can infer Chino's physicals are superior.
This allows us to make a more direct comparison. 1E Post-GT Juubidara has feats on:
SOSP Teen Naruto, stopping his physicals with a Limbo clone which requires Durability and Reaction speed. This version of Naruto is narratively stronger than 8G Guy, as SPSM Naruto was already pressing Madara into a new power up, which is something that didn't happen with Guy, then you add the Kurama cloak on top of that.
And while Naruto isn't necessarily high on the tierlist because of his physicals, I'm certain 8G Guy surely is.
So, assuming everything else was placed correctly, I think putting Chino as top of Legend is the most fair.
Could be higher by quantifying scaling to Perfect Susanoo.
But that's pretty hard to quantify.
She didn't fell victim to Sharingan Genjutsu easily imo. It took Sasuke use EMS.
And it apparently took efforts from both his eyes (So, not something he could do by concentrating Chakra into one) to get out of her Genjutsu.
Sasuke also already has the best Genjutsu in history by this point of the series. The fact that he made an effort against her is a feat by itself, not an antifeat to be compared with random MS users.
It's also a maybe whether this includes people dead or not, which would make Chino the second best Genjutsu user in history only below Sasuke.
But even if you don't agree with this interpretation, it means Chino's Genjutsu can't be overtaken by Killer Bee (Perfect Jinchuriki, gets out of Taka Sasuke and Edo Itachi's Genjutsus), Naruto (Perfect Jinchuriki, the person with the most Chakra ever except for Juubi Jinchurikis and some Otsutsuki; this is specially important as you only need to use more powerful Chakra than the opponent in order to break free, scan below), and Sakura (Gets out of Toneri's Genjutsu; Naruto didn't, and Shikamaru implies her to be better than the rest in there in this department).
Sakura "up there with Tsunade" is an under statement. People hate the ~ MKCM Naruto narrative, scene, etc, but it's the *lowest* scaling she has.
Kido's scaling is non existant outside of Sakura. There's 0 ways to compare him to 4T Naruto, who he never meets nor is compared to in the first place. Bijuu Bomb not detonating is not something I have in hand right now to check, but I don't see why is it relevant nor why would it be because it was weak. DP =/= AP, a smaller radio actually allows for more energy to be condensed into the smaller area leading to more damage, hell the Bijuu destroy a bigger area than EOS Naruto and Sasuke combined. Also uhh that's literally not what the statement says, it's Sakura who destroys some trees before hitting a rock only from the recoil of the hit. Nothing about what the TBB destroyed or did not destroy.
Also weirdly enough you only talk about *her* durability as if those Jinchurikis could take the hit Naruto was afraid to take thinking he'll be turn into dust.
The same Naruto who barely had scratches from tanking his own (amplified by reflection) TBB.
But if you wanna go deep into who can Kido actually scale to:
Kido's Chakra was overwhelming for Sakura. Only other time this happened to her was against Juubidara, and that's before she finds resolve in herself, from then it didn't even happen with Kaguya.
Took less damage than Kaguya from her punches.
(Yes, you can say it's a weakened Kaguya. She was still superior to Naruto and Sasuke individually)
It's also a cloak made as an, albeit inferior, version of the cloak SOSP Naruto has, as that's how they get it. It's literally this cloak which amped Base Rock Lee at the point he was able to blitz Edo Madara, but instead of taking Chakra from KCM2, it takes it from the EOS Naruto who was being troublesome for Kaguya.
Kido is also the guy who was planning on beating BP Sasuke, and even if you could say they don't know how strong BP Sasuke is, they know how strong EOS Sasuke is as that battle is where they got the cloaks from.
All the "arguments" for Tsunade are so biased and clearly taken from one of those memes hating on Sakura that I don't feel like responding, but eh. Let's go point by point.
Also it’s not stated not even once ever that Sakura surpassed Tsunade
She's stated on the same ballpark as people who are massively stronger than Tsunade, so there's no need for that.
Besides, you don't have to be told everything. It's her whole narrative before she gets the seal that she will surpass Tsunade soon. The comparisons stop because there's no need for further confirmation after she long exceeds her.
If you don't notice your bias when you're going by *Sakura is not stated above Tsunade so Tsunade is above*, as if Tsunade *was* stated above WA Sakura, I can tell that's where the problem begins.
she stated to be a better medical ninja during the war but even that’s false because Tsunade healed Shikamaru when Sakura with 9 tails chakra couldn’t even do it.
Facebook ahhh argument
Tsunade was *just* replenished. Healing Shikamaru is the very first thing she does after that.
Meanwhile, Shikamaru needed healing specifically after Sakura was just hit by a God Tree branch.
For reference:
So yeah, 100% Chakra Tsunade is a better healer than out of Chakra (at the point where she can't heal anything) Sakura. I doubt the statement was referring to when Sakura is out of Chakra.
Tsunade is also the granddaughter of Hashirama Senju and mito Uzumaki so she comes from 2 great clans and has massive chakra reserves she even has more chakra to alter her appearance 24/7 and she also has a lot more experience and has survived 3 great ninja wars.
You notice you can say the same against Jiraiya, Minato, Guy and Kabuto yet you have them tiers above Tsunade right? That's because these are no arguments, just some weird justification for something that doesn't have any possible one.
She also has better strength than Sakura she could pick up gamabunta’s sword and jump with it.
Lifting strength is not really something you can just quantify but I'm sure it requires less energy than this by calcs.
Besides, I'll resend this.
And, finally, I'll add another point of my own. I'm sure you're aware of the ~ KCM Naruto ~ EMS Sasuke statement, of the Kaguya feats, and of the Shin feats, so I'll just mention them there for you to say your thoughts on why she has those.
But for the point I'm making: Tsunade is *damn* slow. P1 Kabuto was dodging her attacks before the whole blood trauma came up.
And BOS Sakura was capable of dodging her as well, *all* her attacks. Tsunade stating herself that she's attacking in earnest, not holding back.
(This actually seems to be like, 2 years before BOS, but that's irrelevant as it's only quantifiable to BOS).
So if she can't even touch Pre-seal Sakura, how is she supposed to be above her in EOS lol
*Feats > Statements* thing is a common misconception. It was spread like crazy when powerscaling stopped being niche, but the people who did either didn't explain the context of that, or heard it from someone who didn't explain it to them, so now it's just some arbitrary way to call things.
Feats > Statements means that, when the feats contradict the statements, they should be taken as more valuable as the statements can be lies, while the feats we see just can't. For example, C says A is faster than B, but we see them in a race and B is faster than A at every moment, distance, etc. Now we know C was lacking information or lying. But if E says D is faster than F, and F outruns a cheetah, as long as E is a reliable source then D is still faster than F and he would have also outran the cheetah.
It's not Kakashi who says Sasuke is the strongest of Kakashi's students, but the narrator, so no lack of information there either.
Your listing of Naruto's new abilities only works to conclude BP Naruto > EOS Naruto = EOS Sasuke < BP Sasuke, which seems pretty but doesn't qualify as proof that they are even close. It's like saying P1 Kakashi > Rusty P1 Kakashi > Zabuza > Edo Zabuza < WA Kakashi and conclude P1 Kakashi is stronger than he is at the war.
I already answered to the Hagoromo thing tbh. It's a dead person so strength related statements are about when he's alive (he can't even go fight Kaguya so he's not better than Sharingan-less Kakashi and 1 second from dying Obito in that sense). So either his prime or when he dies. And considering there's 0 info about his strength when he dies while his prime is surrounded by legends... yeah, probably his prime, I may say.
Why Hamura ~ Jinchuriki Hagoromo?
Why Toneri x10?
KCM2 Naruto is definitely above kcm Minato. He has better mastery of the chakra arms, can use bijuu bombs unlike Minato and can infuse sage chakra
All this sounds pretty but you can say the same of 4T Naruto for the first two things and of Jiraiya for the last one. It's just useless in terms of scaling when Minato fights equally alongside SMxKCM2 Naruto.
Edo Nagato > Edo itachi, he did have help against him and that version of Nagato was controlled and had no mobility. Imagine if he had full control how powerful he would be.
Being controlled doesn't make him slower, does it?
Him having no mobility is just part of what Edo Nagato is. *Imagine if he was a different character with the Rinnegan*.
Besides the CT, the help was pretty much a burden more than anything. Had their Chakra absorbed. Just there to be saved here.
And if you say Nagato is stronger because Itachi can't do anything to CT, then again, I repeat, I could say the same about Itachi as Nagato can't do anything about Totsuka Blade.
Orange mask Obito was cautious of Itachi he’s not above pain. Pain has better Destructive Capabilities and more special abilities.
And may I ask why is Pain above Itachi in the first place? The 'Strongest Akatsuki' statements' context is that they obey him for his power but neither Itachi nor Obito obey him at all, Obito being the real leader and it being stated that Itachi participated in the Akatsuki to keep up his pretense as a scoundrel, and fooled the Akatsuki while doing so
Sasuke thinks he only surpasses Itachi when he acquires EMS. MS Sasuke having his whole narrative of being equal to SM Naruto. SM Naruto having a statement as equal to Pain.
Danzo thinking MS Sasuke is inferior to Itachi. Go to 1 again.
Databook saying EMS Sasuke finally surpasses Itachi in Dojutsu and Ninjutsu, which means Itachi outscales MS Sasuke's Susanoo, Amaterasu, Kagutsuchi, Kirin, Chidori, Genjutsu, etc. Go to 1 again.
Sasuke vs Itachi is considered by the third databook as the ultimate battle even though it takes place after SM Jiraiya vs Pain. Hebi Sasuke < Jiraiya so Itachi has to bring the lead by being superior to Pain or else Jiraiya vs Pain would the the ultimate battle.
It's stated that no opponent was worthy of him.
"Fully aware of Jiraiya's strength, Itachi was forced to flee"; he was so far above SM Jiraiya that he needed to get out of the place before Kisame noticed he was not killing him on purpose lmao
Orochimaru was first defeated by Pain, he took a ST to the face, yet he stayed in the Akatsuki to steal his eyes someday. But once he fought *teen, Base Sharingan* Itachi, he was forced to leave the organization, knowing he could never be strong enough to take on him.
Pain strugles with SM Jiraiya, Itachi negs Orochimaru.
This may seem minuscule but I forgot one character on here! There’s no Ao 😂 I just realized
What do you think?