I had always wondered about that. In Madara's case, the best explanation is that he wasn't aware of the conditions for the EMS until Izuna voluntarily bequeathed his own eyes to Madara on his deathbed to ensure that Madara would continue protecting the Uchiha. I think only then the EMS was unlocked in a long, long time, or perhaps even the first time in Uchiha history.
As for Itachi, that guy had no desire for such power. He was the ever-protective Nii-san and a servant of Konoha till his dying breath and beyond (as an Edo Zombie). I'm pretty sure Itachi was well aware of the possibility of this cheat code, but he neither desired it, nor was it of any use to him, since he was dying of a fatal disease anyway. His only goal was to protect Sasuke and Konoha.
Have they been given further feats in Boruto? Because I don't follow that series? But if their feats are the same as the last time I saw them when Kaguya was sealed, then here is my two cents:
It could go either way. Minato has the advantage of speed and a far advanced FTG, along with Sage Mode. But Tobirama has his immense chakra reserves AND his deadliest weapon: his insanely analytical BRAIN, which far outclassed Minato's the last time I saw them. Well that isn't going to serve him well if he gets slashed and rasengan'd by Minato first, which is why this should be close.
Overall, I lean towards Tobirama 6/10. He already has prior knowledge of FTG and Sage Mode. Minato is a Perfect Sage, but he can't use it as efficiently as Hashirama. So that should give Tobirama enough space to analyze while fighting, thus finding a way to take Minato out. His long experience in contrast to Minato's relative inexperience should also come in handy.
Itachi sneezes near Sakura. Sakura goes hysterical.
SAKURA: Kyaaa!!! I just inhaled Sasuke-kun's brother's nasal droplets!! That means I just inhaled DNA that is a partial match to Sasuke-kun!! Kyaaa!!! [Nose-bleeds and faints]
In all seriousness, Sakura vs healthy Itachi is just THAT pathetic of a fight.
BlazeRelease wrote:
1. Genjutsu, don't really know, why Madara never used it against Hashi(Nor Sasuke against Naruto, to be honest), but genjutsu strong enough to capture the Nine tails, should be strong enough to capture Hashi.
It's been more than two years since I touched anything related to Naruto (manga or anime). Heck, I didn't even bother to watch the anime till the end, so I might have forgotten some details. But as far as I know, Sharingan Genjutsu works against Kurama because for some reason, Kurama has an inborn weakness against it. This thing is explicitly stated in the Uchiha Tablet. But just because sharingan's genjutsu is effective against Kurama, it doesn't necessarily mean that it will be effective against Hashi.
2. Amaterasu, which both brothers have with them. One direct contact, and it would be done.
Edo Tobirama immediately recognized Blaze Release when Sasuke used it against Juubi. That means either Madara or Izuna possesed Blaze Release. So Hashi should be able to counter Amaterasu.
3.TB, basically if they could manage to hit him, then he would be done for.
Ah yes, the Totsuka Blade is basically Itachi's God-level Cheat Code. This one poses a legit threat to Hashi, although its precise nature and limitations have still not been clarified. But those discussions have been done to death 2 years ago. Why flog a dead horse, right? ;)
4. And finally, the jutsu Hashi passed to Sasuke, the technique that counters the SM, that he gave to Sasuke in order to stop Madara(who was using SM.)
Was it ever clarified what that jutsu even was in the first place? All I remember is Sasuke getting his bitch ass stabbed in the heart with his own sword by a single-Rinne Madara. Either way, it doesn't matter because the OP has only said that Sasuke has EMS. That doesn't automatically imply that he has the anti-SM technique Hashi gave him.
Rachin123 wrote: Even so, it was a stupid move not to.
Probably it was very labour-intensive and time-consuming, so it made sense to restore the ONLY godlike shinobi in his arsenal to his prime. Chiyo and Hanzo were probably not worth the trouble.
QuakingStar wrote: Look we get you guys love Madara so hard, and Hate Itachi so hard. But the point of these threads is to debate each character positive and negative and see who wins the most in say... 10 battle. 5 each being a draw of course. You people hate Itachi so much and love Madara so much it blinds you. You two are too immature for proper debating.
Aren't you the one who's always getting reprimanded by mods for frequently hurling insults at other posters who disagree with your views?
Wow. I remember commenting on an Itachi vs Madara thread once. It was something about whether Madara could or could not break Itachi's Tsukuyomi in time without suffering severe mental damage or something like that. I didn't know there was another Itachi vs Madara thread I had no knowledge about, and with a fuck lot of comments and replies at that!! And I see that people are still riding the Itachi horse as if all those other Itachi vs Madara debates never happened. Like WTF???!!!
Oh goodness!! Let's just hope Boruto's mangaka isn't as big a fan of DBZ as Kishi. The Tailed Beast Kamehameha battles towards the end of the manga were frankly ridiculous.
I stopped watching the anime after the manga ended. Haven't even bothered to watch the Boruto movie tbh. However, I did watch a short clip of Toneri appearing in Boruto's dream. So does that mean the Geezer Toad's prophecy about Naruto being the Chosen One or whatever just a helplessly limited vision? We obviously saw Konoha destroyed in the first page of the Boruto manga. So apparently, Naruto's accomplishments in bringing sustainable peace was only a little more effective than that of Hashirama, right? Or was Naruto's prophecy only limited to uniting the Bijuu? I thought there was some promise about Naruto ultimately bringing about an era of peace-loving hippies who spend their times smoking weed instead of throwing kunais on each other's asses.
If the war feats concern Kamui, then yes we can use them. Otherwise, anything associated with Rinnegan boost is irrelevant to this particular thread. And yeah, MS Obito's physical strength has always been impressive. I remember him easily stopping Zabuza's blade when Suigetsu tried slashing that into someone (was it Sasuke or Kisame?) after Itachi died. So yeah, physically, pre-War Obito is indeed strong. But in overall powers and abilities, pre-War Obito is far below EMS Madara.
Kakashisologod1 wrote:
BakumatsuWarrior wrote: @ShadyShadow: Thanks bro ^_^
Dude u relaize i am talking about pshyical strenght right?
And physical strength is the only thing Obito required to reach EMS Madara's level? Powerful jutsus, dojutsus, sealing techniques, and other abilities are irrelevant? That's the main issue here. This thread is about pre-War Obito. And we're arguing that pre-War Obito was nowhere near EMS Madara's level. And we all know EMS Madara is much, much, much more than mere physical strength. And while Rinnegan Obito's intangibility abilities are relevant for this thread since that's his MS ability, his other feats against KCM Naruto, Kakashi, Gai and Bee should be treated with care since many of those feats were because of the Rinnegan. And Obito gained the Rinnegan during the War (not before), a fact which many here are deliberately ignoring. And only Rinnegan Obito has shown the necessary feats that can place him on par with EMS Madara.
The databook may or may not have implied that pre-War Obito was at EMS Madara's level (since I haven't read the translation), but everything we know from the manga shows that pre-War Obito was nowhere near Madara's level. Both the manga and the databooks are ridden with plot holes and inconsistencies, which is why it is important to consider both the sources to decide whether a claim is well-supported or not. And here, the manga contradicts this particular databook claim in so many places that the only reasonable thing to do is to conclude that Kishi was smoking some high-quality meth if he indeed claimed in the databook that pre-War Obito was at EMS Madara's level. That basically shits on everything that was shown about Obito.
@ShadyShadow: Thanks bro ^_^
What about Karin and Sakura's stupidity? Sasuke almost killed them yet they still get wet thinking about him? The stupid is strong in this one.
On a more serious note, shouldn't the Bijuu be mentioned as well? When they're not trapped inside their jinchuriki, they're very durable against physical damage.
Kakashisologod1 wrote: Nobody seems to be complaining about naruto part 1 i wonder why.
Yeah I think all of us agree that most of the intolerable bs in this series was introduced during the 4th War. Part 1 had great humor with more down-scaled, taijutsu based fight scenes. And while a few annoying things like unnecessary flashbacks and Naruto's lack of jutsus were already there, it was far more tolerable. Shippuden got mildly annoying by amplifying these problems and cutting down on the humour. Plus all the villains somehow turned out to be good guys who got screwed over by a cruel world, which was nothing more than Kishi repeating Gaara's redemption over and over again, until people got sick of it. Akatsuki's mystery and powerful presence is what made Shippuden so interesting, though. But then they died off and Kaguya happened. Sigh.
Kakashisologod1 wrote: Also rinnegan did not improve obitos strenght and speed @CyberianGinseng.
Yes, because being able to summon the Gedo Statue, use the Six Paths of Pain, having shared vision, and being able to control 6 bijuu like toys isn't an increase in strength.
@Ravenlot: And besides, Itachi had already informed Kakashi that a non-Uchiha sharingan user has no chance of breaking Tsukuyomi with his borrowed sharingan anyway. So obviously, Kakashi isn't going to use his MS to break Tsukuyomi, because he already knows that as a Hatake, his borrowed sharingan isn't going to do the trick.
Namikazenaruto9 wrote: No obito didn't break physical contact when he was siphoning of his chakra when madara tried to take back his rinnegan but realized he was intangible, As matter of fact madara was the one who withdrew(on realizing that obito wa stealing his chakra away and inorder to prevent further loss) not obito.
True. I interpreted the flow of chakra from Madara to Obito's arm as them having broken off physical contact. That was not true. I take it back.
Because sealing a chakra construct is very different from sealing an organism that happens to possess chakra. These are obviously entirely different things. The translation also says 'enemy' NOT 'anything'. Also, when TTJ-Madara attacked Obito when he realized Obito was stealing his chakra, Obito had already broken off PHYSICAL CONTACT with Madara, with only Madara's chakra connecting those two. So this still doesn't prove that Obito can physically attack Madara while being intangible.
Dodge it for how long? Stamina is the key issue with Itachi. Obito can't attack while he's intangible. He'll just be playing hide and seek with Madara. Anything else pre-War Obito has is ineffective against Madara. Because pre-War Obito is almost certainly NOT a mirror image of EMS Madara, while Pre-TTJ Rinnegan Obito most probably is. I've already explained why. The manga and the databook contradict each other. Sometimes, databooks trump the manga when it forcefully retcons previous manga lore. Usually, such databook retcons are followed by new manga feats and explanations that support the retcon. However, no such feats support pre-War Obito's case here.
Itachi and Obito themselves state that Obito doesn't compare to the real Madara. Ohnoki himself found it hard to believe that someone like Madara would use such roundabout methods like involving the Akatsuki and trying to use Sasuke to kidnap the 5 Kage for bargaining purposes, when the Madara he knew in his youth could have done such things all by himself.
None of pre-Rinnegan Obito's later feats suggest that this was a lie. So as powerful and cunning as pre-War Obito was, he doesn't have much that can hurt Madara. Itachi, on the other hand, will be undone by his stamina. And for the zillionth time, let us not overestimate Itachi's spiritual weapons. The Yata Mirror has virtually no feats, while the Totsuka Blade has neither been shown to seal pure chakra constructs, nor has there been any suggestion (as far as I know) that implies that the TB can do such a thing.
Also, somewhere along this thread, I read a translation about the TB being able to cut any enemy. An 'enemy' implies intent and agency i.e. something living. We saw it cut down Orochimaru's snakes. This is no guarantee that it can cut down Madara's Susanoo. So I've said this in many other threads and I'll say it here again: let us not overhype Itachi's weapons. Their descriptions and feats have far too much vagueness and ambiguity to judge them accurately.