All posts by MlGshinobi

<p>What? If anything, I'm the one defend ing Kishimoto here. I like the concept s in naruto, and most of the characters are amazing, but the story itself has a huge share of holes and inconsistencies, and I dont like the cop out of the wife and family, everyone has responbilities. Do you tell your boss at work to excuse your poor performance because you have a wife and kids? I mean it's manga, it's nothing super serious, but Kishimoto makes a living off of it, and his incoherent writing created this whole yata mirror controversy, and when I point out his credibility, no matter how tainted, im the one that gets shunned mostly, with the typical accusation being that im a fanboy. Im at the point where I should just go back to reading other quality manga and comics. </p>

<p>Itach already knows that obito has spare eyes... they slaughtered the uchiha clan together. The scret is that he isn't actually madara. We saw how shook obito got when kabuto revealed that he knew, so if itachi figured it out things would have went downhill for obito fast. @Baku, yea I will give you that , he can sense it, but he didn't have any enhanced precognition other than he doesn't haveto see itachi's eyes to know it might be coming, because he " sensed" it after itachi's eyes already started bleeding. </p>

<p>Alright, im done. It was clearly stated that the preta path was nullified. It was also clearly stated that edo tensi < real life self. Madara spent the whole time trying to capture senjutsu chakra, and was about to be sealed till he was saved. Naruto joining the party is irrelevant as madara was alread y paralyzed by wood style dragon. </p>

<p>Except he did use rinnegan techniques, hashirama disabled his preta path. And like I said your numbers contradict the testimonies of hashirama and madara, so im free to disregard them. Madara was about to sealed, zetsu and obito saved him. He only needed one hand seal because of the power boost he gain ed from rinne tensi. Most of the battle was off panel anyways. The shinsenju would be very useful as it's a susanoo busting attack. </p>

<p>And when exactly did I call the raikage a dumbass? I never did. Intelligence, like ever y other stat , is relative. Part one rock lee was fast, but there are chafacters who are faster. And it's how the stats match up in the battle. No one stat individually determines everything. You guys talk about how strong the armor of rhe raikage is when itachi can one shot him. Those ten thousand fodder shinobi obviously couldn't even scratch him. He battled the gyuki to a draw, sure that's also impressive, but what is the gyuki made of ? Flesh, even sasuke's chidori was able to cut it's tentacle off. The third raikage probably can tank a bijuu bomb and had the speed to evade the tentacles and the stamina to last. But that was purely a battle of brawns. So how is the battle match up versus itachi? Itachi has the firepower to kill him, he is smarter, he has the defenses to deal with the nukite, the only problem is the speed. Itachi had lower reserves than all his opponents, so I dont know why people act like this is something new. But you guys spamm the raikage being able to blitz around, when first of all, he is not as fast as his son, not even his son was blitzing around madara's susanoo like you guys claim he will and he ended up getting caught in genjustu. Killer bee is who , much slower was able to tag v2 4th raikage despite the " untouchable speed" . Speed isn't enough to win the battle. The third raikage CAN win the battle, but isn't anything like you guys claim. He is a close range fighter, where the chsnces of getting caught in genjustu are maximized. </p>

<p>Except I said that already. Intelligence is relative ultimately, and relative to the intelligence hype feats of other kages/ kage level shinobi they are average. </p>

<p>That number has no substantiation. The edo tensei are close to full strength, but there is still an obvious gap because hashirama and madara both said that being an edo tensi makes you weaker. No hashirama wasn't played for a fool, madara was seconds away from being sealed but just in the nick of time black zetsu revived him, giving him the power boost to subdue hashirama. Hashriama letting himself be stabbed by those rods was just a bad personality trait, he is used to heal ing off all damage. But it wouldn't have mattered if black zetsu didnt revive madara. </p>

<p>The raikage fought sasuke while he was emotionally charge because he thought bee was dead. But against madara raikage fought well and composed and coordinate d with the other kages well. Neither raikage are idiots, they earned their title as raikage and have basic common sense and intelligence needed for their positions, but that's it. They aren't particular geniuses. Are the raikages really inyour top ten, or even your top 20 smartest naruto characters? Ninja of War's logic implies the third is smarter than shikamaru simply because he is a kage. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>SuperSaiyaMan wrote: </p> <div class="quote"> <p>MlGshinobi wrote: @Supersayiaman, it was outright stated that madara got stronger once he was revived, deny manga facts if you want. @Ninja of War, that's not how the genjustu works, it isn't actual darkness, it made hiruzen and his shadow clones perceive infinite darkness around them, it's a genjustu that simply messes with the user sight and doesn't impair your other senses. All genjustu messes with your sense of sigh t and make you see stuff that isn't there. The sharingan can easily detect the darkness, just like sasuke saw through Cee's infinite light blinding genjustu. </p> </i></div>
<p>That was Hashirama's misconception, MIGShinobi. Hashirama is no longer an expert on Madara, he couldn't know what he was thinking. We have a canon statement that Madara in his Edo Form was far stronger than he was in life, far stronger than his prime. And question: what's Hashirama's counter to Madara just using Outer Path to control him after impaling him with those six Chakra Recievers? Ohthat's right, he has no counter and Hashirama didn't even realize he had already lost. </p> </div> <p>Do I really need to post reference for this? Even madara said that tobirama was weaker as an edo tensi, and he said the senju brothers could no longer keep up with their former selves due to being the edo zombies. Madara was stronger in his prime because of kabuto's further modifications, but that doesn't change the manga fact that he was still weaker than his full potential due to being an edo tensi. Hashriama was a good deal stronger when they fought in real life, and he beats him in stamina by just enough to win everyy time. Even after gaining the rinnegan and mokuton, madara was still not able to fully close the gap. And the rods, whoo knows when he implanted those. He hsd to plant those rods manually into obito in order to use them , so that was either plot or happened sometime off panel. </p>

<p>I agree it was plot that he was killed that fast, I mentioned it in another thread. Naruto should have needed more help to take him down, but plot or not it's not farfetched for him to be smarter. I'm just pointing out that experience =/= wisdom =/= intelligence. The 9 bijuu are at least 1000 years old and I don't see anyone calling them the smartest. I'm not saying the raikage is dumb, he obviously ewrned his title as raikage for a reason, but saying he is this intellectual being that rivals the masterminds and most brilliant people in naruto on a " kage level" intelligence cop out makes no sense for me. </p>

<p>I'm sure it is, with that 100 years experience he couldn't see through the bunshin feint ? Right. </p>

<p>Next you will be telling me the third is smarter than tobirama. Look , the raikage has no intelligence feats or hype, so he is an average mind, it's that simple. Kirin is real lighting and black lighning isn't its a chakra based attack, so its dodgeable. Except kakazu had 100 years batt le experience whereas naruto was a 17 year old. Naruto was smarter than kakazu despite being far less experienced. Under your logic your grandama is automatically smarter than you just because she lived longer. You really think itachi hasn't fought more than 10, 000 shinobi in his lifetime? He was in anbu since 13. Battle experience is simply learning from combat while wisdom is solving problems you have no experience with. Battle experience and wisdom are quite the opposite. </p><p>I mentioned kakashi because he also relies on his sharingan and he still used a smoke bomb, so no itachi can use smoke bombs too. </p>

<p>@Supersayiaman, it was outright stated that madara got stronger once he was revived, deny manga facts if you want. @Ninja of War, that's not how the genjustu works, it isn't actual darkness, it made hiruzen and his shadow clones perceive infinite darkness around them, it's a genjustu that simply messes with the user sight and doesn't impair your other senses. All genjustu messes with your sense of sigh t and make you see stuff that isn't there. The sharingan can easily detect the darkness, just like sasuke saw through Cee's infinite light blinding genjustu. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>Ninja Of War wrote: @MIGshinobi </p><p>Actually, you can't just disregard Itachi not being able to weave signs and dodge a fuma shuriken, that is evidence of a limit to his hand sign speed. I meant that Itachi can't dodge a ranged lighting technique, which the Third has. If you are implying that the Third's black lightning is slower than Kirin lightning, please provide evidence. Itachi won't risk losing sight of the Raikage, since he would be already be hard to track. I'll say it again, it matters more that Itachi can't see, since he relies on the Sharingan as the core of his abilities, example; if he can see the Raikage he can't predict the Raikage's attack and counter it. </p><p>Battle experience == wisdom. Why do you say otherwise? </p> </i></div>
<p>Like I said, even black zetsu said that itachi should have been able to outpace that shuriken, it wss because that was sick itach. This is prime itachi, not sick itachi. By your logic all lighting style users withnranged attacka are undodgebable. Black zetsu clearly said kirn was undodgebable because it hits the ground in 1/1000 second sin ce it's REAL LIGHTNING. By your logic no one should be able to dodge kakashi's lightning dog. </p><p>Battle experience isn't battle wisdom. Wisdom is your ability to decipher things you have no prioer knowledge on. Itachi figuring out the weaknesse of chibaku tensi was a feat of wisdom, and he had the wisdom of a hikage at age 7. Battle experience is your ability to react to things based on similar things you have seen before. Plus you still haven't proven that the raikage has more battle experience, nor have you shown me references for him being smarter than itachi. Your smoke bomb argument doesnt hold water because sharingan kakashi has used smoke bombs against his opponent without a problem. Like I said , it was v2 4th raikage who couldn't be tracked at top speed, the 3rd has show n no such abilities, and the raikage s have been touched by slower opponents and have been caught in genjustu. </p>

<p>@Ninja of war, the yata mirror has already been shown tanking multiple attacks. And sasuke tanked those attacks with a lower stage of susanoo, so saying the yata mirror can't with no evidence is just bias. </p><p>@Killman, he didn't use it because of plot. His only major battle was against sasuke and sasuke wasn't powerful enough to show you the planet busting feats everyone wants to see in this thread. Then versus kabuto he didn't use armored susanoo at all. Kishimoto not having a break in 15 years doesn't excuse poor, and inconsistent writing because other writers have done better. </p>

<p>Minato purposely let the raikage get that close is what you are not understanding. The point was to flicker the kunai near the raikage's body once he got close so he could easily teleport back and counter attack. The speed wasn't the moral of the story its why blitzing isn't killing any high level shinobi right off the back. Killer bee was able to tag his brother in the fight to kill naruto too despite being the slower of the two. Itachi is slower than the third raikage, however like i said, blitzing speed =/= striking speed. Substitution, crow substitution, shadow clone , susanoo are options for itachi. Look, if the third raikage blitzes top speed into an explosion, it doesn't matter that it won't damage him, he is getting disoriented. The emphasis is on the sonic speed, he isn't gonna notice the great explosion detonating, it will be sudden, and even if he opted to keep running, he is still temporarily blinded by the smoke and debris, he has lost sight of itachi, he needs to stop and regain his bearings, meanwhile, itachi has the better position, his sharingan can help in taggimg the raikage's position. The rasenshuriken example even shows that the third raikage waa unable to do anything once he was trapped within the sphere and then was left on the ground for several seconds. And whyy exactly is the madara scenario any different when itachi is also a skilled susanoo user? The raikage wasn't blitzing around madara like an idiot because he knows that achieves nothing and his speed doesn't help him other than for dodging attacks because he is a close range fighter. Like I said , blitising speed =/= striking speed. Even against sasuke, once the raikage closed in he slowed down to begin his chop giving sasuke the chance to react, and sasuke was using a very premature version of susanoo, he couldn't use limbs. I dont see what madara being stronger has to do with anything, susnaoo is susanoo at the end of the day , only difference was that madara was using legs, but they still have the swords and yasska matagama. Itachi has genjustu: Ms as well as tsyukyomi, and as well as ephemeral and his demoinc illusions which don't even require eye contact, so he brings even mmore genjustu press ure than madara does. As much as the raikage showed impressive dodging feats, naruto used his chakra arms to carefully land his attack, andnthe raikage even saw them coming. With itachi, he won't see them coming as well because itachi is even smarter than naruto. Kakashi is still very intelligent, he is smarter thannthe raikage as well and still barely outmaneuvered the sneak attacks, and the raikage being " too fast" cop out has already been refuted. Once raikage is in close range he is still vulnerable to the attack overlays. His speed will help, but one mistake on his part causes him to get hit with A GG jutsu. </p><p>And even in the smoke screen example, once in the smoke another crow bunshin feint can be created that can make an attempt to attack , the raikage will counter but itachi has shown he can use thst feint with the crows flocking to initiate tsyukyomi, sothat' s another possibility. </p><p>I don't see how the ova isn't relevant, because it confirmed the canon state ments that kisame wasinferior to itachi and is the same hypothetical battle thing we are doing here. And nothing in it was really unrealistic. So like I said, the raikage's armor isnt a problem in this match up, it's only the speed and stamina. But based on all the screen time ive seen from the raikage s, the effectivnes of their speed has never made any battle one sided bar the sasuke one, and the stamina dominace is the problem itachi lacks against every opponent, so like I said nothing new. </p>

<p>Ok now that's actually legitimate reasoning. The intricate mechanics of how the shield actually alters its attirbutes are ambiguous, but kishimoto doesn't have to subscribe to those in the fandom who want a strict scientific explanation, its a manga for entertainment. And yea, Kishimoto is a bad writer for jot taking that extra step. I addressed the nagato incident before , two things: plot, wnd it wasnt necessary for what was needed. It's the same reason itachi used amaterasu on nagato instead of just sealing him with the totsuka blade, it's all to drag out the battle. Even if the shield creates an anti gravitate force, that just renders him station ary and he has naruto and bee to worry about as well as taking out nagato. Destroying the core was the more proactive choice as it stops the attack actively and created a huge smoke screen to catch nagato off guard. The shield can change any of its properties but it only does so for the attack at hand, meaning the shield is sentient, commanded by itachi, or some combination of both much like gaara's sand. In either case, the yata mirror wasn't used because itachi was using a lower stage of susanoo, so he felt it wasn't necessary and he was right. Why the shield wasnt used again? Plot and bad writing. But that doesn't automatically make it a reason to ignore in vs battles, because as far as we concerned it theoretically doesn't have a known limit. So yea, it does bring an issue of logistics, but that's about it, so we have to go by what we have. So it's best to assume that as long as itachi's stamina holds, nothing is getting through that shield. The only possibility is underground attacks at itachi's feet probably. </p>

<p>You ignored the facts. Madara got a power boost from being revived and this was clearly stated in the manga and hashirama overwhelmed him beforehand, so he had answers.. And right, im a madara and hashirama fanboy now too, I'll that to the list of being called a naruto fanboy, minato, as well as itachi too. So nothing new, it's just a weak argument for justifying the weak arguments already presented. Madara wasn't overwhelmed because then black zetsu wouldn't have to step in to save naruto and sasuke from madara. Sasuke can beat hashirama but you blow every thing out of proportion, so yea believe what you want. </p>

<p>The description isn't vague at all. It's simple, the shield that turns back any attack, whether it be ninjutsu, astralbody or a physical attack. It's not anymore complicated than that. How does the shield do so? Also simple. Alters its attributes in accordance with the attack, in basic terms, if a meteor hits the shield it matches the meteor and breaks it apart. If a fire wind attack hits it it counters with water and fire. If snakes hit it it counters. It's that simple. The shield also can chsnge any of it's properties, so it can be as big as it needs to be to counter the attack. There you go with the dbz logic again, so you need to see the yata mirror tank a supernova too? Don't use the burden of proof card on me when I stacked a document with the WRITER's words on the table that has not been retconned in any shape or form. You are basically misleading others by using examples where there was the obvious retcon when in this case there isn't. And yea, you can pull the fanboy card too, implying that I so head over heels enjoy the fact itachi has an overpowered shield. I simply give credit where it is due , i'm indifferent to itachi being the one to poessess such a shield but with his intelligence he probably deserves it.It's the equivalent of calling someone a superman fanboy because they admit his kryptonian abilities are over powered as hell. So no the burden of proof is on you to refute kishi moto's words, and so far , all that has been presented are incomparable examples. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>SuperSaiyaMan wrote: </p> <div class="quote"> <p>MlGshinobi wrote: </p> It matters because you claimed that since hashriama couldn't beat jubbi obito but sasuke/ naruto could and thus they surpassed him. But I counter that because they only did so with plot armor plus the help of entire alliance. </i></div>
<p>Uh what? No you missed my argument entirely. Hashirama is weaker than Juubi Jin Obito. <i>However</i>, when Naruto achieved Six Paths Sage Mode and Sasuke achieved the Rinnegan, they both got stronger individually than any Juubi Jin from their feats. Pre-Hagoromo they were, at best, Hashirama and Madara's equals, after, they surpassed them. By adulthood, Naruto and Sasuke were dealing with threats that Hashirama has zero chance against and were winning. </p> <div class="quote"><i>Cutting him in half is irrelevant, madara knows he is immortal so tanking those hits was child's play for him. He " resorted"to infinite tsyukyomi because that was his whole plan from the beginning. He came back from the dead for this goal. He needed his other eye so he got away and got it and naruto and sasuke couldn't stop him from doing so. Sasuke even remarks " shit" as he failed to stop madara from escaping.after they survived tsyukyomi he was ready to demolish them but plot armor saves the day as black zetsu betrays madara right at that moment. The chibaku tensi and limbo clones were purely a distraction and it occupied naruto and sasuke while madara accomplished his dream.</i></div>
<p>It does matter. Despite being 'immortal', it showed Naruto and Sasuke had the power to deal with him. And Madara isn't actually immortal, he can die and both Naruto and Sasuke had the capability of doing so from their feats. Madara realized he couldn't defeat them hence why he resorted to distractions and Mugen Tsukuyomi. Naruto alone effortlessly dealt with the Chibaku Tensei and Limbo Clones too. </p> <div class="quote"><i>Sasuke doesn't have anywhere the amount of battle experience that hashirama has who has been fighting and killing uchiha adults since he waa a kid in the most hostile era of shinobi history. I never said hashirama is in the level of a jubbi jin but this is now a 1v1 fight with no plot armor. Edo hashriama overwhelmed edo rinnegan madara who also had hashirama's techniques and hashirama wasn't even using his top budda. By feats hashirama can destroy perfect susanoo, has sage mode, experience battling the rinnegan, healing factor etc. Sasuke probably wins most likely because of his power up but am I very skeptical of that, and sasuke' s best feats against naruto were only after he absorb ed the chakra of the tailed beasts which he doesn't have in this fight. </i></div>
<p>Your biased argument doesn't make sense. You admit Hashirama isn't in the same level of power as or caliber as Juubi Jins or Kaguya, yet you claim that since he's killed far weaker Uchiha than Sasuke, he stands a chance against Adult Rinnegan Sasuke. And you claim its 'plot armor'? Seriously, that shows you have zero argument other than your own bias. You ignore or downplay any of Naruto and Sasuke's feats, claiming plot, while exaggerating Hashirama's. Oh and Hashirama never defeated Edo Madara, Madara played him for a fool the entire time and was holding back, we saw this when Madara kicked his ass when he came right back to life. </p><p>Sasuke (and Naruto) are GOD TIER characters now, and have been since they were teenagers (post-Hagoromo). Naruto is a pseudo Juubi Jin who can use all the powers of the Biju on top of having Gudodama and able to use massive amounts of Natural energy. Sasuke can travel between dimensions, destroy village sized meteors with a fricking Chidori, etc. Hashirama and Madara are not the best anymore. They aren't even close to being the best anymore. Stop whining 'plot' everytime a superior feat to their's is pointed out, and just accept they have been surpassed by a tremendous amount. You have a losing argument otherwise. </p> </div> <p>Except that madara wasn't holding back, it was stated multiple times that even with kabuto's perfection, edo tensi are still weaker than their real life self. Hashriama even said " madara is back to his original strength" once he was revived. Obviously, if hashriama was also brought back to life he would continue to dominate. </p><p>
Like I said, madada effectively distracted naruto and sasuke and complete d his goal. Oh yea? So how does a person who isn't immortal survive bisection with ease? Naruto and sasuke needed the seals if they wanted to take him down and they couldn't even stop him from casting tsyukyomi. They tried to seal him but he stopped it with limbo substitution. Naruto and sasuke were no where near the equals of hashriama and madada pre hag gift. Sasuke was casually rekt by a blind madara. And sasuke and naruto individually stood no chance against any jubbi Jin either. Madara was the better of them and waa about to kill them if not for zetsu. And against kaguya it was a 4 on 1 fight. </p><p>Yea due to hag gift sasuke has the strength to beat hashriama but hashirama still has massive power of his own. And no I call plot when it clearly was plot that allowee their survival. </p>