<p>I would like to discuss this considering how Momoshiki "dies". Apparently, the source of immortality is the chakra fruit, but despite that Boruto(or Naruto's power) is able to "kill" him.
if the source of power Is same, is it a stretch to say Kaguya is dead too? Or could be killed?
I know many of you are gonna point out about the "seal" but according to Cannon Boruto novel Kaguya is stated to be dead.
Here is the small extract:
"If he panicked, his techniques would be useless anyway.
</p><p>Kaguya had died. In this world, there wasn’t such a thing as immortality.
</p><p>I just need to aim for their heads!
Without hesitation, Sasuke was leaping upwards with the intention of aiming at the back of the giant’s neck.
C(|)J
Sasuke didn’t expect the man to take action later than he did.
He was just that Sasuke was fast.
Your thoughts on dead Kaguya? Or does Momoshiki has a chance of reentering series, considering the whole immortality thing?
</p>
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<p>CombatIQmatters wrote:
@NamikazeNaruto
</p>
1)Jiraiya has no genjutsu breaking feats. Not saying he can't break her genjutsu but it's a stretch to say he would be immediately aware of her genjutsu and would be immediately able to break it while worried about 3 other jounin. He also doesn't have any of the advantages that allowed itachi to detect it and break it with ease and efficiency.</i></div>
Jiraiya has no genjutsu breaking feats is dependent on the fact that he has been caught in one. He has never been caught in a Genjutsu canonically speaking. So your argument about Kurenai catching him in one fizzles out in the same "cannon-fashion". As for Jiraiya not having advantages over the four jounin that's huge stretch. He has gigantic toads and even the arena is to his advantage. Other Jounin's don't even have the skills to survive this battle ground. <div class="quote"><i> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: </p> 2) I literally stated that kakashi can't counter the collaboration ninjutsu. but it doesn't matter because kakashi has 3 teammates in this battle to misdirect gamabunta's attention.</i></div>
How do you misdirect AOE? that too in limited space? Plus Bunta is not fighting the three alone, it's the whole Jiraiya and Bunta fighting four Jounins. They aren't separate entities in the fight. <div class="quote"><i> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: </p> 3) Like I said, the human path was caught off guard by the jutsu and was ensnared. If team jounin sees the technique coming, they can chakra walk. chakra walking is a precuationary measure, not a reactionary one. Obviously if they are already ensnared, they are screwed. And Raiton>Doton. nothing suggests kakashi can't counter the technique.</i></div>
So if they see technique coming isn't jumping/evading better option than to try and walk on it? Plus how are you assuming that they will start with bog below their foots. They could easily start with bogs upto their knees? <p>Also I told you about Raiton and Doton argument, check the fights than talk. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: 4) the problem with most of what you are saying is that it assumes the jounin just let jiraiya run away. Obviously if jiraiya gets to escape and user guerilla tactics, then they would have trouble. but we are skipping a whole bunch of steps for jiraiya to safely escape right off the bat. What jutsu would allow him to immediately escape the jounin? Kakashi can open with his lightning fang jutsu from mid-range. asuma can use wind to amplify it. guy initiates leaf whirlwind and kurenai follows behind him and asuma to get close enough for genjutsu. </p> </i></div>
No one ever gave the info that they are face to face, you are the one who is claiming that plus, it's easy to run away for him considering how his whole career is build upon spying and info gathering. Body flicker at mid-range distance, in my opinion, is sufficient to run/ escape. Covering tracks/ blocking view with Fire ball Jutsu is another standard for him to escape in the purview of flames. Plus you should check out basic elemental transformation, Lightning attacks aren't empowered by wind moves.
Jiraiya has no genjutsu breaking feats is dependent on the fact that he has been caught in one. He has never been caught in a Genjutsu canonically speaking. So your argument about Kurenai catching him in one fizzles out in the same "cannon-fashion". As for Jiraiya not having advantages over the four jounin that's huge stretch. He has gigantic toads and even the arena is to his advantage. Other Jounin's don't even have the skills to survive this battle ground. <div class="quote"><i> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: </p> 2) I literally stated that kakashi can't counter the collaboration ninjutsu. but it doesn't matter because kakashi has 3 teammates in this battle to misdirect gamabunta's attention.</i></div>
How do you misdirect AOE? that too in limited space? Plus Bunta is not fighting the three alone, it's the whole Jiraiya and Bunta fighting four Jounins. They aren't separate entities in the fight. <div class="quote"><i> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: </p> 3) Like I said, the human path was caught off guard by the jutsu and was ensnared. If team jounin sees the technique coming, they can chakra walk. chakra walking is a precuationary measure, not a reactionary one. Obviously if they are already ensnared, they are screwed. And Raiton>Doton. nothing suggests kakashi can't counter the technique.</i></div>
So if they see technique coming isn't jumping/evading better option than to try and walk on it? Plus how are you assuming that they will start with bog below their foots. They could easily start with bogs upto their knees? <p>Also I told you about Raiton and Doton argument, check the fights than talk. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: 4) the problem with most of what you are saying is that it assumes the jounin just let jiraiya run away. Obviously if jiraiya gets to escape and user guerilla tactics, then they would have trouble. but we are skipping a whole bunch of steps for jiraiya to safely escape right off the bat. What jutsu would allow him to immediately escape the jounin? Kakashi can open with his lightning fang jutsu from mid-range. asuma can use wind to amplify it. guy initiates leaf whirlwind and kurenai follows behind him and asuma to get close enough for genjutsu. </p> </i></div>
No one ever gave the info that they are face to face, you are the one who is claiming that plus, it's easy to run away for him considering how his whole career is build upon spying and info gathering. Body flicker at mid-range distance, in my opinion, is sufficient to run/ escape. Covering tracks/ blocking view with Fire ball Jutsu is another standard for him to escape in the purview of flames. Plus you should check out basic elemental transformation, Lightning attacks aren't empowered by wind moves.
(Edited by Namikazenaruto9)
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<p>Kirito975 wrote:
Okay im reading the replys and you guys make great points.
</p><p>Gai is def the one who had worked through pure sheer of will and Training.
But attributing Hashirama's strength to being an ashura incarnite is all well and good but you have to realize something. Having amazing potential means nothing if you cant realize and work for it Naruto is an incarnate as well but throughout their lives, hashirama has been stronger than him.
</p><p>Hashirama was killing adult, battle seasoned and hardened uchihas when he was a kid. Naruto couldn't even beat someone like Haku in his youth without Kurama's intervention.
</p><p>Now, if we look at the lives of Hashirama and Naruto, Naruto directly got a boost from Hagoromo himself. Hashirama didn't. Say what you will about the wood release, yes its hax, but its hashiramas power that caused it to become as strong as it did. Yamato, Zetsu, Obito & Madara all had wood release, and it was said they all paled in comparison to hashirama - the only one to be comparable to him was Madara who had a hashi cell boost and rinnegan.
</p><p>If you can be taught a skill, its not considered an outside power source because you can work for it. if you have a Bijuu or body mods or power directly received from an individual I.E Hagoromo, then that power is not your own as you can not attain that power naturally. so Sage mode and 8 gates are viable, because you can be taught and trained to use them.
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It's like that old saying about polishing your best skills or playing along by your strength. Whether you like it or not everyone can work out hard like Guy/Lee. I see many people in this thread dismissing it as though anyone can do it but that's not the case at all. Hard work requires a lot, a belief system capable of fending that exhaustion, systematic work system and grinding even on your lowest.
Being a Hard worker like either Lee or Guy is similar or even rarer than some prodigy like Itachi or Minato. If you remove the unique feature of the character, in my opinion that person would no longer be the same character. Hashirama without Wood release would be akin to Guy without hard work and so on.
Coming to whole topic where you talk about "own" power and "external" power. The answer is quite difficult one. Usually one would define own power as something you are born with in his case it's almost true if you disregard few hours of birth. Not to mention the things he had to go through for taking Kurana in. He definitely had to work Kurama out eventually reaching the top in 4th Great Ninja war, just like Hashirama would have trained to master wood release at that level and boost his natural endurance.
Plus i am not sure why SPSM/Rinnegan is different from Wood release than? Sure Naruto needed help from Hagoromo to awaken his power but that potential was their all along. People might not like the idea of an immediate boost but by than several things had change. The powers they recieve (or at least Naruto) were too similar to his previous ones which he had trained a lot during the war via shadow clones(in fact if i recall, the chakra cloak is stated to be on same principle as that of multi shadow clone) I wouldn't be surprised by sudden gap he showed.
As for Naruto without Kurama versus Hashirama, sure on first sight Naruto might seem weaker than Hashirama but i don't think that is the case. Adult base Naruto has shown remarkable feats against someone whose power rival that of TTJ or perhaps even stronger. His Taijutsu feats seem better than hashirama at this point. HE could literally pound Hashirama to death in sage mode.
It's like that old saying about polishing your best skills or playing along by your strength. Whether you like it or not everyone can work out hard like Guy/Lee. I see many people in this thread dismissing it as though anyone can do it but that's not the case at all. Hard work requires a lot, a belief system capable of fending that exhaustion, systematic work system and grinding even on your lowest.
Being a Hard worker like either Lee or Guy is similar or even rarer than some prodigy like Itachi or Minato. If you remove the unique feature of the character, in my opinion that person would no longer be the same character. Hashirama without Wood release would be akin to Guy without hard work and so on.
Coming to whole topic where you talk about "own" power and "external" power. The answer is quite difficult one. Usually one would define own power as something you are born with in his case it's almost true if you disregard few hours of birth. Not to mention the things he had to go through for taking Kurana in. He definitely had to work Kurama out eventually reaching the top in 4th Great Ninja war, just like Hashirama would have trained to master wood release at that level and boost his natural endurance.
Plus i am not sure why SPSM/Rinnegan is different from Wood release than? Sure Naruto needed help from Hagoromo to awaken his power but that potential was their all along. People might not like the idea of an immediate boost but by than several things had change. The powers they recieve (or at least Naruto) were too similar to his previous ones which he had trained a lot during the war via shadow clones(in fact if i recall, the chakra cloak is stated to be on same principle as that of multi shadow clone) I wouldn't be surprised by sudden gap he showed.
As for Naruto without Kurama versus Hashirama, sure on first sight Naruto might seem weaker than Hashirama but i don't think that is the case. Adult base Naruto has shown remarkable feats against someone whose power rival that of TTJ or perhaps even stronger. His Taijutsu feats seem better than hashirama at this point. HE could literally pound Hashirama to death in sage mode.
(Edited by Namikazenaruto9)
<p>Nope, Hashirama is not the strongest character. And I am not very sure what you mean by his "own power"? Are you talking about how Hashirama won the genetic lottery ticket over all other characters including current Ashura reincarnation? If yes, there are better ones out there. Strictly speaking i would probably pit someone like Onoki, Minato, Third Raikage, Current Orochimaru with Edos, Sage Kabuto (again with edos), Shisui above him. There ability can trump and give him a run for his money.
</p>
(Edited by Namikazenaruto9)
<div class="quote"><i>
<p>Ryanq214 wrote:
Well considering this is an ainme, we can't just apply real world logic/science to it unless they do. The naruto world has never mentioned anything like a mutation in someone's gene's or bloodline.
</p><p>If genetics worked in naruto like it did in the real world then all of the major clans like the uchiha, hyuga, an so on would be full of deformed mentally challenged people because of all the inbreeding.
</p><p>Also their DNA would be much weaker than the first generation of the clan, as they have no doubt been watered down since kaguya and hagoromo.
</p><p>I read that to make a rinnegan you actually need the recombination of Indra and Ashura chakra along with senju and uchiha DNA. So the chakra itself matter, but putting it all back together again would just make the same thing. Just like Senju and Uchiha DNA combined together with Indra and Ashura DNA made the rinnegan--which it originally came from, and not something new. There are no mutation in that world
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<p>^nothing actually suggest that clans didn't marry outside the clan like you are claiming. It's very clear that Clans had alliances with each other and in order to strengthen these ties they use to marry members to strengthen Partnership. A good example would be Uzumaki's and Senju. In fact i would argue that Senju had several kinds of jutsu thanks to this gene diversity. Another example would be Haku's mother marrying normal humans to hide her ninja heritage. You get the idea
As for clans dying out or going insane we do have few examples of them. do you remember Kaguya clan and their bloodthirstiness? Or Chinoike clan of Ketsuryugan?
As for mutation argument you are wrong. If i remember correctly there are few examples like Kimimaro, Hamura Otsutsuki, Hashirama's wood release, And most of the KKG users(the ones revolving around elemental release like Typhoon release, Lava style and so on). </p>
<p>^nothing actually suggest that clans didn't marry outside the clan like you are claiming. It's very clear that Clans had alliances with each other and in order to strengthen these ties they use to marry members to strengthen Partnership. A good example would be Uzumaki's and Senju. In fact i would argue that Senju had several kinds of jutsu thanks to this gene diversity. Another example would be Haku's mother marrying normal humans to hide her ninja heritage. You get the idea
As for clans dying out or going insane we do have few examples of them. do you remember Kaguya clan and their bloodthirstiness? Or Chinoike clan of Ketsuryugan?
As for mutation argument you are wrong. If i remember correctly there are few examples like Kimimaro, Hamura Otsutsuki, Hashirama's wood release, And most of the KKG users(the ones revolving around elemental release like Typhoon release, Lava style and so on). </p>
(Edited by Namikazenaruto9)
<div class="quote"><i>
<p>CombatIQmatters wrote:
</p>
1..you reread the chapter but you still don't see it? Chapter 141 pg 12. You can clearly see kisame caught in kurenai's genjutsu, it's obvious since tree roots grabbed his feet. That wasn't asuma's doing, so it was genjutsu, Case closed. Kurenai can catch jiraiya in that same genjutsu and the second she does he is getting blitzed and killed by asuma guy and kakashi.</i></div>
Not even once Jiriaya has been caught in one. every Genjutsu countered by clone every single time. Case closed. <div class="quote"><i> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: 2.And I never said that kakashi can copy collaboration jutsu, in fact I stated that jiraiya needs to use power to overcome kakashu's copy ninja tactics, which is what collaboration ninjutsu provide. What I did say however, is jiraiya using supplementary jutsu like Yomi Numa would be silly, as kakashi would copy that technique and use it against him. </p> </i></div>
That's a nice observation, you should check how collaboration ninjutsu is countered, Fire+Wind combo cannot be defeated by Water, so no copy shenaningans will save kakashi. And two shouldn't you provide the proof for Kakashi's alleged advanatage over Jiraiya in terms of ninjutsu and power? <div class="quote"><i> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: 3. this is what is known as the Yomi Numa fallacy. No technique is inherently both unavoidable and uncounterable. I repeat, the jutsu has only caught a feral, skillless, and experienceless fodder summon, and it caught pain off guard, meaning he didn't see it on the roof when he jumped on to it. Team Jounin has multiple counters. Yomi Numa is a doton. Raiton> Doton. Kakashi is a skilled Raiton user. Do the math. Chakra to the feet is a thing. Normal water can sink people yet ninja can walk on top of it just fine. There is no reason why these jounin wouldn't be able to stand on the swamp if they know to run chakra at the feet in time. They are all experienced ninja who without a doubt have seen earth techniques before. The problem comes if they don't use the chakra to the feet in time, as they will already be slightlty sunk and ensnared by the jutsu obviously, and ONLY then can they not escape. But at that point. Kakashi uses raiton to free himself and his allies, and uses Yomi numa on jiraiya to paralyze him. Even if Team jounin is ensnared, nothing is stopping them from weaving signs. Asuma can still use burning ash. kakashi can still use mid-ranged ninjutsu. Guy can use the 6th gate and outright break free depending on the round. Kurenai can still cast her genjutsu. </p> </i></div>
Than perhaps you should learn how to read between the lines before pointing out obvious.
Starters it didn't catch pain off guard, he completely neutralized them with the technique and two Jiraiya is number one infiltrator here far surpassing the Jounin in Round one and Two. Round one Kakashi is without Kamui and Round Two Kakashi is someone who collapsed after one or two use.
As for your illogical Raiton is greater than doton argument, you should perhaps watch anime epsiode featuring matchup between omoi and Ringo where he tricks her into the bog. same thing happens here. And For Chakra argument just check any episode with bog or swamps, it's the same for every ninja they can't use chakra to stand up or else pains would have easily escaped after being trap in the bog.
Guy can't use Asakujaku in first two rounds or 6th gate. That's the main reason why i said The team can't win. In round 3 only Jonin would win albeit with difficulty. <div class="quote"><i> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: 4) Jiriaya vs Pain location can mean a number of things, there were open spaces as well. The only restricted space is the corridor which gives jiraiya a chance to summon his toad stomach more efficently, but that jutsu requires him to be crouched on the ground. Asuma can use burning ash in that corridor and kill jiraiya after kurenai tricks him with genjutsu, and while using kakashi and guy as backup to ensure jiraiya's death. </p> </i></div>
And Jiraiya counters Asuma or Kakashi's fire style with even superior Fire style in collaboration. Not only will Asuma's attack be reversed on him but it would be pretty much game over. And Kurenai's Genjutsu has as much chance of affecting Jiraiya as these Jonin's discovering the real Jiraiya meaning it depends on who finds who first. <div class="quote"><i> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: 5) Depends on who steals initative and starting distance. I say 30 feet is standard for this type of battle. At that distance, Kakashi may wait for jiraiya to make the first move as he likes to copy people's technique and use it against them, he may start with lightning tracking fang otherwise. but that says nothing about his teamamtes. Jiraiya would likekly be smart enough to open with summmoning jutsu. So he goes for it and guy is coming thru with that leaf whirlwind, asuma close behind, kakashi using raikiri to help close the distance, and kurenai behind them trying to get into range to cast her genjutsu. Jiraiya is smart enough to create space initally so he will probably get it off if he makes the first move, depends on how fast Guy is. So, the summoning goes off and he summons gamabunta. Gamabunta would force guy to enter gates. Guy's speed and power immediately pushes jiraiya into a corner, gamabunta is too slow to tag gated guy. Jiriaya is forced to take drastic measures. Gamabunta should be genjutsu able by kurenai at that point, asuma tries to weaken him burning ash. Kakashi goes to help guy take out jiraiya. So, I don't see how jiraiya wins this. If he uses yomi numa after the summoning, the jounin counter it, kakashi copies it and uses it to sink gamabunta and or jiraiya... while they are distracted by gated guy and or kurenai's genjutsu. </p><p>The only round jiraiya has a feasible shot of winning is the bonus round because having ma and pa even the odds. </p> </i></div>
<p>30 feets a lot in a maze where you don't know other's location or have any stealthy technique. Jiraiya has a lot of stealthy technique not to mention if four of them decide to go separate ways it's game over.
If Kakashi seriously waits for Jiraiya's move than he is done for like Pain. There won't be second chance after he is in the bog. And If Kurenai's Visual Genjutsu is a real threat like you claim then so is Jiraiya's Toads having Auditory Genjutsu. And in such an environment Acoustics will be ideal for attacking.
Another important detail should be mentioned here, the Toads don't exactly have the chakra in body, the combine physical and mental energies outside to use "ninjutsu". This detail is mentioned in DB so i don't how valid your Genjutsu argument really is.
There is no doubt if Gates Guy come into picture, Jiraiya will need lot more summons. But i clearly stated the victory for Jiraiya in First two rounds. So no justification or counters needed for your guy related statements.
Finally coming to major portion of the fight and more fundamental problem with your answer. What makes you think these Jounin's have infiltration skills, detection skills and sensing skills? Only Kakashi has any experience in these areas thanks to his black ops. rest are pretty much gonna hold him back due to lack of experience, on the other hand all these have been shown to be Jiraiya's forte. So it's no stretch that he can defeat the four at there given status in OP. </p>
Not even once Jiriaya has been caught in one. every Genjutsu countered by clone every single time. Case closed. <div class="quote"><i> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: 2.And I never said that kakashi can copy collaboration jutsu, in fact I stated that jiraiya needs to use power to overcome kakashu's copy ninja tactics, which is what collaboration ninjutsu provide. What I did say however, is jiraiya using supplementary jutsu like Yomi Numa would be silly, as kakashi would copy that technique and use it against him. </p> </i></div>
That's a nice observation, you should check how collaboration ninjutsu is countered, Fire+Wind combo cannot be defeated by Water, so no copy shenaningans will save kakashi. And two shouldn't you provide the proof for Kakashi's alleged advanatage over Jiraiya in terms of ninjutsu and power? <div class="quote"><i> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: 3. this is what is known as the Yomi Numa fallacy. No technique is inherently both unavoidable and uncounterable. I repeat, the jutsu has only caught a feral, skillless, and experienceless fodder summon, and it caught pain off guard, meaning he didn't see it on the roof when he jumped on to it. Team Jounin has multiple counters. Yomi Numa is a doton. Raiton> Doton. Kakashi is a skilled Raiton user. Do the math. Chakra to the feet is a thing. Normal water can sink people yet ninja can walk on top of it just fine. There is no reason why these jounin wouldn't be able to stand on the swamp if they know to run chakra at the feet in time. They are all experienced ninja who without a doubt have seen earth techniques before. The problem comes if they don't use the chakra to the feet in time, as they will already be slightlty sunk and ensnared by the jutsu obviously, and ONLY then can they not escape. But at that point. Kakashi uses raiton to free himself and his allies, and uses Yomi numa on jiraiya to paralyze him. Even if Team jounin is ensnared, nothing is stopping them from weaving signs. Asuma can still use burning ash. kakashi can still use mid-ranged ninjutsu. Guy can use the 6th gate and outright break free depending on the round. Kurenai can still cast her genjutsu. </p> </i></div>
Than perhaps you should learn how to read between the lines before pointing out obvious.
Starters it didn't catch pain off guard, he completely neutralized them with the technique and two Jiraiya is number one infiltrator here far surpassing the Jounin in Round one and Two. Round one Kakashi is without Kamui and Round Two Kakashi is someone who collapsed after one or two use.
As for your illogical Raiton is greater than doton argument, you should perhaps watch anime epsiode featuring matchup between omoi and Ringo where he tricks her into the bog. same thing happens here. And For Chakra argument just check any episode with bog or swamps, it's the same for every ninja they can't use chakra to stand up or else pains would have easily escaped after being trap in the bog.
Guy can't use Asakujaku in first two rounds or 6th gate. That's the main reason why i said The team can't win. In round 3 only Jonin would win albeit with difficulty. <div class="quote"><i> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: 4) Jiriaya vs Pain location can mean a number of things, there were open spaces as well. The only restricted space is the corridor which gives jiraiya a chance to summon his toad stomach more efficently, but that jutsu requires him to be crouched on the ground. Asuma can use burning ash in that corridor and kill jiraiya after kurenai tricks him with genjutsu, and while using kakashi and guy as backup to ensure jiraiya's death. </p> </i></div>
And Jiraiya counters Asuma or Kakashi's fire style with even superior Fire style in collaboration. Not only will Asuma's attack be reversed on him but it would be pretty much game over. And Kurenai's Genjutsu has as much chance of affecting Jiraiya as these Jonin's discovering the real Jiraiya meaning it depends on who finds who first. <div class="quote"><i> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: 5) Depends on who steals initative and starting distance. I say 30 feet is standard for this type of battle. At that distance, Kakashi may wait for jiraiya to make the first move as he likes to copy people's technique and use it against them, he may start with lightning tracking fang otherwise. but that says nothing about his teamamtes. Jiraiya would likekly be smart enough to open with summmoning jutsu. So he goes for it and guy is coming thru with that leaf whirlwind, asuma close behind, kakashi using raikiri to help close the distance, and kurenai behind them trying to get into range to cast her genjutsu. Jiraiya is smart enough to create space initally so he will probably get it off if he makes the first move, depends on how fast Guy is. So, the summoning goes off and he summons gamabunta. Gamabunta would force guy to enter gates. Guy's speed and power immediately pushes jiraiya into a corner, gamabunta is too slow to tag gated guy. Jiriaya is forced to take drastic measures. Gamabunta should be genjutsu able by kurenai at that point, asuma tries to weaken him burning ash. Kakashi goes to help guy take out jiraiya. So, I don't see how jiraiya wins this. If he uses yomi numa after the summoning, the jounin counter it, kakashi copies it and uses it to sink gamabunta and or jiraiya... while they are distracted by gated guy and or kurenai's genjutsu. </p><p>The only round jiraiya has a feasible shot of winning is the bonus round because having ma and pa even the odds. </p> </i></div>
<p>30 feets a lot in a maze where you don't know other's location or have any stealthy technique. Jiraiya has a lot of stealthy technique not to mention if four of them decide to go separate ways it's game over.
If Kakashi seriously waits for Jiraiya's move than he is done for like Pain. There won't be second chance after he is in the bog. And If Kurenai's Visual Genjutsu is a real threat like you claim then so is Jiraiya's Toads having Auditory Genjutsu. And in such an environment Acoustics will be ideal for attacking.
Another important detail should be mentioned here, the Toads don't exactly have the chakra in body, the combine physical and mental energies outside to use "ninjutsu". This detail is mentioned in DB so i don't how valid your Genjutsu argument really is.
There is no doubt if Gates Guy come into picture, Jiraiya will need lot more summons. But i clearly stated the victory for Jiraiya in First two rounds. So no justification or counters needed for your guy related statements.
Finally coming to major portion of the fight and more fundamental problem with your answer. What makes you think these Jounin's have infiltration skills, detection skills and sensing skills? Only Kakashi has any experience in these areas thanks to his black ops. rest are pretty much gonna hold him back due to lack of experience, on the other hand all these have been shown to be Jiraiya's forte. So it's no stretch that he can defeat the four at there given status in OP. </p>
(Edited by Namikazenaruto9)
<p>^okay let's put it in another way,
Can Kaguya be killed? Before this i thought she cannot be, so can she be killed by the Rasengan Boruto used against Momoshiki? Or Is the sealing our only option? </p>
Can Kaguya be killed? Before this i thought she cannot be, so can she be killed by the Rasengan Boruto used against Momoshiki? Or Is the sealing our only option? </p>
(Edited by Namikazenaruto9)
<div class="quote"><i>
<p>BlazeRelease wrote:
I say her immortality is beyond Hidan's. From what is shown, she can easoly be without half of her lower body, that means she is entirely immortal. But I always asked this question, what if someone stabs into her brain? Wouldn't she be brain dead or something like that?
</p><p>Did the novel itself say that Kaguya is dead? Or was it said by someone in the novel? Either way, they might have simply stated her being trapped into a minor moon from another dimension by a seal as dead. Didn't Shikamaru state that he killed Hidan or something, but we know Hidan will survive for atleast a day in that ground? We also know that Sasuke 'killed' Orochimaru, but in the sense of ending him. Maybe dead might just mean that they have ended.
</p>
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<p>No idea, at least in my opinion decapitation is more than brain stabbing considering how you target more valuable medulla.
What Novel stated is written in OP, which if taken literally states that she is dead and there is no such thing as Immortality. Hidan did die of malnutrition. Unless he is trying to survive by eating dirt. </p>
<p>No idea, at least in my opinion decapitation is more than brain stabbing considering how you target more valuable medulla.
What Novel stated is written in OP, which if taken literally states that she is dead and there is no such thing as Immortality. Hidan did die of malnutrition. Unless he is trying to survive by eating dirt. </p>
(Edited by Namikazenaruto9)
<div class="quote"><i>
<p>CombatIQmatters wrote:
Kurenai caught both of them. Kisame was clearly caught by the tree branches as well. It appeared that she focused on finishing itachi first, but that was her own mistake due to inexperience, and as a result the genjutsu was completely broken and reversed. If it was just kisame kisame would have died.
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Than you should read chapter 141 Itachi Uchiha again, because Kisame was cutting Asuma into "ribbons" while she tried to attack Itachi. <div class="quote"><i> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: What proof is there that jiraiya has faster hand seals than kakashi? Kakashi has the sharingan, he can instantly percieve jiraiya's hand seals and even copy them if he wants to . Jiraiya doesn't have itachi level hand seal speed. Yumi noma gets copied and used on jiraiya, and now all of them are stuck in the swamp, except now jiraiya gets caught in genjutsu, and guy opens the gates to break free of the mud and blitzes him, and kakashi can still cast ninjutsu even if he is immobolized. Kakashi can use lightning style to diffuse the mud around his teammates, and leave jiriaya trapped in his own mud, GG jiraiya. Jiraiya is experienced enough to not use ninjutsu like that against the sharingan. He would use toad summons and jutsu that he can overpower kakashi with, anything else is just copy ninja food. Also, yumi noma has only caught a huge fodder snake summon which didn't have any skills or experience and the human path of pain who was caught off guard and already using chakra to stick to the ceiling. IF jiraiya uses the seals for yumi noma off the bat, the jonin will see it coming and simply run chakra on their feet to stand on top of the swamp before it immobilizes them. While he is focused on trying to make it sink them, the jounin have initiative. </p> </i></div>
<p>Oh no one said Jiraiya is faster in hand seal, you should read it again, the only thing i said was Jiraiya's hand seal are faster than Guy or Kakashi's approach. And if copying is truly an option than scale and power of jutsu will differ. Especially in this case.
Also Kakhi can't copy collaboration ninjutsu too. He gets rekt like the time with Kakuzu. And even if Kakahsi sees the seal it's not gonna work, the techniques range is really very large enough to sink largest of the summons easily. And perhaps you should check what bog is, it ain't water where you can stand via chakra and escape from. once you are trapped any movement is end of story, no movement is end of story. Only flying could help you. or someone outside of technique with a rope. Heck Jiraiya got three pains in a restricted area. This team has no counters to the technique. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: This isn't a 1v1 battle. It's a 1v4 battle. If jiraiya stops to clash rasengan with kakahsi's raikiri, he still has a leaf whirlwind coming at him from the right, and asuma's trench knifes coming at him from the left, and kurenai close behind. He needs to choose his first action wisely or he isn't living long enough to even cast a summoning jutsu in the first place. </p><p>Jiraiya 's summons and toad guourd have to resolve in the first place. </p> </i></div>
<p>1 Vs 4 in Pain's hideout, and you are claiming that he won't be able to use hand signs or summon. That's over-exaggeration. If it was open field perhaps i could agree, there are so many chance of using summons via stealthy approach especially considering how Jiraya is the best infiltrator of Leaf. And before you make some comments about resolving just remember against Pain it took him single hand sign to use the toad mouth trap and finish the mutlti headed dog. So you shoukd be the one to point out something faster than that. </p>
Than you should read chapter 141 Itachi Uchiha again, because Kisame was cutting Asuma into "ribbons" while she tried to attack Itachi. <div class="quote"><i> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: What proof is there that jiraiya has faster hand seals than kakashi? Kakashi has the sharingan, he can instantly percieve jiraiya's hand seals and even copy them if he wants to . Jiraiya doesn't have itachi level hand seal speed. Yumi noma gets copied and used on jiraiya, and now all of them are stuck in the swamp, except now jiraiya gets caught in genjutsu, and guy opens the gates to break free of the mud and blitzes him, and kakashi can still cast ninjutsu even if he is immobolized. Kakashi can use lightning style to diffuse the mud around his teammates, and leave jiriaya trapped in his own mud, GG jiraiya. Jiraiya is experienced enough to not use ninjutsu like that against the sharingan. He would use toad summons and jutsu that he can overpower kakashi with, anything else is just copy ninja food. Also, yumi noma has only caught a huge fodder snake summon which didn't have any skills or experience and the human path of pain who was caught off guard and already using chakra to stick to the ceiling. IF jiraiya uses the seals for yumi noma off the bat, the jonin will see it coming and simply run chakra on their feet to stand on top of the swamp before it immobilizes them. While he is focused on trying to make it sink them, the jounin have initiative. </p> </i></div>
<p>Oh no one said Jiraiya is faster in hand seal, you should read it again, the only thing i said was Jiraiya's hand seal are faster than Guy or Kakashi's approach. And if copying is truly an option than scale and power of jutsu will differ. Especially in this case.
Also Kakhi can't copy collaboration ninjutsu too. He gets rekt like the time with Kakuzu. And even if Kakahsi sees the seal it's not gonna work, the techniques range is really very large enough to sink largest of the summons easily. And perhaps you should check what bog is, it ain't water where you can stand via chakra and escape from. once you are trapped any movement is end of story, no movement is end of story. Only flying could help you. or someone outside of technique with a rope. Heck Jiraiya got three pains in a restricted area. This team has no counters to the technique. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: This isn't a 1v1 battle. It's a 1v4 battle. If jiraiya stops to clash rasengan with kakahsi's raikiri, he still has a leaf whirlwind coming at him from the right, and asuma's trench knifes coming at him from the left, and kurenai close behind. He needs to choose his first action wisely or he isn't living long enough to even cast a summoning jutsu in the first place. </p><p>Jiraiya 's summons and toad guourd have to resolve in the first place. </p> </i></div>
<p>1 Vs 4 in Pain's hideout, and you are claiming that he won't be able to use hand signs or summon. That's over-exaggeration. If it was open field perhaps i could agree, there are so many chance of using summons via stealthy approach especially considering how Jiraya is the best infiltrator of Leaf. And before you make some comments about resolving just remember against Pain it took him single hand sign to use the toad mouth trap and finish the mutlti headed dog. So you shoukd be the one to point out something faster than that. </p>
(Edited by Namikazenaruto9)
<p>@CombatlQmatters
oh you are missing a lot of things relating jiraiya even without summoning jutsu.
For starters could you be a lamb and tell me which is faster making signs for ninjutsu or an immediate ambush on guy or Kakashi's part? the answer should be fairly certain.
He could easily immobilize the whole squadron with his Swamp Jutsu. (If mobility was even an issue in the first place and just escaping this bog would take more than half half of the jonin's concentration and efforts which is also excluding any effort on jiraiya's part who will try and kill them while they struggle to free themselves). Or even use Toad mouth bind to get those close to him before escaping and finishing the rest off. This kakashi is incapable of Kamuing the whole of stomach or escape from the trap.
Naruto who was training with jiraiya was outfoxed by a mere shadow clone trick and who is to say that these guys won't fall for it? Just adding on, Jiraiya has never fallen prey to genjutsu user, often tackling them with mid -long range and Shadow clones. So Kurenai getting him with Genjutsu without being in short range seems stretch. Not a viable option.
Also even if casual approach are somehow possible let's say who is to say that Kakashi or guy's close quarters attack willn't be met by Rasengan? Kakashi was struggling against the whole Collaboration ninjutsu even against Kakuzu and his mask. Jiraiya can do that with toads whose power can compare with Biju.
As for Kurenai's genjutsu use, she only fought with Itachi, unless i am mistaken. Because if Kisame had been in the same genjutsu, Itachi would have to break him out of it with Genjutsu release. That was solely matchup between the two Genjutsu specialist. </p>
oh you are missing a lot of things relating jiraiya even without summoning jutsu.
For starters could you be a lamb and tell me which is faster making signs for ninjutsu or an immediate ambush on guy or Kakashi's part? the answer should be fairly certain.
He could easily immobilize the whole squadron with his Swamp Jutsu. (If mobility was even an issue in the first place and just escaping this bog would take more than half half of the jonin's concentration and efforts which is also excluding any effort on jiraiya's part who will try and kill them while they struggle to free themselves). Or even use Toad mouth bind to get those close to him before escaping and finishing the rest off. This kakashi is incapable of Kamuing the whole of stomach or escape from the trap.
Naruto who was training with jiraiya was outfoxed by a mere shadow clone trick and who is to say that these guys won't fall for it? Just adding on, Jiraiya has never fallen prey to genjutsu user, often tackling them with mid -long range and Shadow clones. So Kurenai getting him with Genjutsu without being in short range seems stretch. Not a viable option.
Also even if casual approach are somehow possible let's say who is to say that Kakashi or guy's close quarters attack willn't be met by Rasengan? Kakashi was struggling against the whole Collaboration ninjutsu even against Kakuzu and his mask. Jiraiya can do that with toads whose power can compare with Biju.
As for Kurenai's genjutsu use, she only fought with Itachi, unless i am mistaken. Because if Kisame had been in the same genjutsu, Itachi would have to break him out of it with Genjutsu release. That was solely matchup between the two Genjutsu specialist. </p>
(Edited by Namikazenaruto9)
<p>^So worse than Hidan's immortality?(since he can survive decapitation)
Kaguya being dead is not a notion i am bringing in, its written in the novelization of Boruto movie. They are the ones who state she is dead.(unless translators got it wrong). And two remember Madara's regeneration of lower body? who is to say that the head won't regenerate? She did come back to her original form after completely losing control. </p>
Kaguya being dead is not a notion i am bringing in, its written in the novelization of Boruto movie. They are the ones who state she is dead.(unless translators got it wrong). And two remember Madara's regeneration of lower body? who is to say that the head won't regenerate? She did come back to her original form after completely losing control. </p>
(Edited by Namikazenaruto9)
<p>Round 1: Jiraiya
In my opinion, collaboration ninjutsu and summoning will even the odds.
Round 2: Still Jiraiya
That level of Kamui isn't enough in my opinion to create that difference. and Two 2nd gate is too low even with someone like Guy.
Round 3: No doubt the Jonins. Though it will be a difficult match, real difficult.
Bonus round: Definitely Jiraiya. But again he will be in for a tough match. </p>
In my opinion, collaboration ninjutsu and summoning will even the odds.
Round 2: Still Jiraiya
That level of Kamui isn't enough in my opinion to create that difference. and Two 2nd gate is too low even with someone like Guy.
Round 3: No doubt the Jonins. Though it will be a difficult match, real difficult.
Bonus round: Definitely Jiraiya. But again he will be in for a tough match. </p>
(Edited by Namikazenaruto9)
<div class="quote"><i>
<p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:
Even if he does that seal the summoning won't disappear...so he'll still have his hands full. Doesn't the tetragram seal require the shinigami to be summoned? he'll die ;_;...ah naruto used rashenshuriken but even that didn't work they still multiplied..at first he'll attempt it ofc but that'll just make them multiple even more...flying raijin level 2 is a possibility but we have to consider two things.
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No one is talking about Reaper death seal. It's Tetragram seal which is used to seal Kurama into baby Naruto.
Also rampaging summoning beast which is not under Nagato's control can be used to create a new summons contract. Plus the fog is danger only when it can detect the enemy, Jiraiya escaped it several times, I don't think we need to tell that Minato could too escape it. Plus if Dog and summons is a real threat than so is Summoning: Food Cart Destroyer Technique. Pus of Flying Raijin level 2 isn't enough than Flying Thunder God Mutually Instantaneous Revolving Technique can finish him.
- If Minato already displayed the use of flying raijin in their battle then Nagato would have that deduced and he would provide counters for it like the chameleon or simply would have his guard up for suspicious activities like a kunai being thrown at him..
- If Minato has already attack the dog so much to a point where there are over 7 separate bodies then Nagato would just have increased field of vision and would probably see the flying raijin level 2 coming that could then be countered with the extra limbs or shinra tensei...
No one is talking about Reaper death seal. It's Tetragram seal which is used to seal Kurama into baby Naruto.
Also rampaging summoning beast which is not under Nagato's control can be used to create a new summons contract. Plus the fog is danger only when it can detect the enemy, Jiraiya escaped it several times, I don't think we need to tell that Minato could too escape it. Plus if Dog and summons is a real threat than so is Summoning: Food Cart Destroyer Technique. Pus of Flying Raijin level 2 isn't enough than Flying Thunder God Mutually Instantaneous Revolving Technique can finish him.
(Edited by Namikazenaruto9)
<div class="quote"><i>
<p>LegionZero wrote:
</p>
Nagato's summons are different from most. He actually controls their corpses the same way he does the Paths of Pain, by using chakra recievers. Minato may be able to break the summonaing contract but Nagato still retains control.</i></div>
I see. You are claiming that Nagato will retain control? I don't think so they will simply become non factor in the fight like Kurama became. Just few rampaging beasts. Plus you completely ignore the other half of reply. <div class="quote"><i> <p>LegionZero wrote: He never identified the phasing as space-time. He identifies the swirly teleportation as space-time. I believe Sakura was one of the only characters to theorize that his phasing was time-space based. Even Kakashi only came to view this as a possibility due to an accident. Whether or not he was fighting seriously is irrelevant, she still came to that hypothesis when no one else would for another like, 200 chapters. </p> </i></div>
It remained a conjecture. she never did anything to prove it. Also If I remember correctly Minato's logic is the only way one can fight Tobi. Not other way round.
I see. You are claiming that Nagato will retain control? I don't think so they will simply become non factor in the fight like Kurama became. Just few rampaging beasts. Plus you completely ignore the other half of reply. <div class="quote"><i> <p>LegionZero wrote: He never identified the phasing as space-time. He identifies the swirly teleportation as space-time. I believe Sakura was one of the only characters to theorize that his phasing was time-space based. Even Kakashi only came to view this as a possibility due to an accident. Whether or not he was fighting seriously is irrelevant, she still came to that hypothesis when no one else would for another like, 200 chapters. </p> </i></div>
It remained a conjecture. she never did anything to prove it. Also If I remember correctly Minato's logic is the only way one can fight Tobi. Not other way round.
(Edited by Namikazenaruto9)
<div class="quote"><i>
<p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:
@NamikazeNaruto
Foo would've obviously sensed and announced an alert had he done that..they didn't last long but they didn't do bad either, considering Obito's ability is the biggest hax ever plus his hax was spammable..facing the sharingan alone was tough...and to this battle, if Minato has kunai's outside of the battleground (maybe at safe houses in konoha etc) then he wins..if not then he simply loses as he won't even get past the summonings especially the multiplying dog thingy cuz he can't mark and teleport it to far distances
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Minato can use contract seal to remove Nagato's control over the so called Multi dog. (Not to mention he can actually do another Jiraiya in this regard as well). It took just one Rasengan to put Obito out of commission. Nagato will be obliterated at this rate. Plus Minato can actually seal them forever with Tetragram seal(one he used on Kurama) or even kill them physically with Rasengan(since most of them were actually defeated by Naruto and his cohort of back up). <div class="quote"><i> <p>AsianReaper wrote: @Namikaze, Minato did not figure out the mechanics of Obito's abilities. He found a way to counter the abilities since he had the speed to do it. </p><p>Minato never knew Obito was sending bits of himself to another dimension for example. Minat never had to figure that out, because he had the speed and reactions to just hit Obito before he activated his intangibility. </p><p>Minato commented on Obito's space-time technique, yes. But he only noted it was more versatile because it didn't require a mark to teleport to. So in that sense it was superior to FTG. And that was after Obito literally just teleported in front of him so it wasn't a feat of intelligence there. </p><p>In fact, I forget who exactly, but didn't Sakura already hypothesize in their fight that Obito's body parts were disappearing instead of him turning legitimately intangible? THe squad just had no counter for it at the time; none of them were fast enough to catch Obito off-guard. </p> </i></div>
Sure he did. However Minato knew about Obito escaping to a dimension to evade battle damage. since his attacks actually went through Obito without harming him. And correctly classified it as space-time.
<p>Wasn't that after Yamato's attack? Also she made the first wrong conclusion by calling it genjutsu. That's like too many free hits. If we take in the serious counts the first few free loaders were actually dead. And I don't think after witnessing such gruesome death they would stay standstill and keep collecting intel like they were doing in that joke of a fight. Obito was literally toying with them and calling on jokes. </p>
Minato can use contract seal to remove Nagato's control over the so called Multi dog. (Not to mention he can actually do another Jiraiya in this regard as well). It took just one Rasengan to put Obito out of commission. Nagato will be obliterated at this rate. Plus Minato can actually seal them forever with Tetragram seal(one he used on Kurama) or even kill them physically with Rasengan(since most of them were actually defeated by Naruto and his cohort of back up). <div class="quote"><i> <p>AsianReaper wrote: @Namikaze, Minato did not figure out the mechanics of Obito's abilities. He found a way to counter the abilities since he had the speed to do it. </p><p>Minato never knew Obito was sending bits of himself to another dimension for example. Minat never had to figure that out, because he had the speed and reactions to just hit Obito before he activated his intangibility. </p><p>Minato commented on Obito's space-time technique, yes. But he only noted it was more versatile because it didn't require a mark to teleport to. So in that sense it was superior to FTG. And that was after Obito literally just teleported in front of him so it wasn't a feat of intelligence there. </p><p>In fact, I forget who exactly, but didn't Sakura already hypothesize in their fight that Obito's body parts were disappearing instead of him turning legitimately intangible? THe squad just had no counter for it at the time; none of them were fast enough to catch Obito off-guard. </p> </i></div>
Sure he did. However Minato knew about Obito escaping to a dimension to evade battle damage. since his attacks actually went through Obito without harming him. And correctly classified it as space-time.
<p>Wasn't that after Yamato's attack? Also she made the first wrong conclusion by calling it genjutsu. That's like too many free hits. If we take in the serious counts the first few free loaders were actually dead. And I don't think after witnessing such gruesome death they would stay standstill and keep collecting intel like they were doing in that joke of a fight. Obito was literally toying with them and calling on jokes. </p>
(Edited by Namikazenaruto9)
<div class="quote"><i>
<p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:
Well Obito had plot armour, that is to be kept in mind...Also they did land a hit on Obito,but he had the zetsu half which the nano insects were attached onto so he could've easily ripped that out....also after Torune got sucked in they kinda nerfed Foo's reaction speed,considering he was a sensor and all..at the beginning of the battle Obito did something similar and Foo reacted well.
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Did he?
If obito wanted he could have attacked Torune from his blind spot while he was removing parasites. They barely lasted minutes if you ask me.
Also I think most of these fighters have very less experience regarding space time ninjutsu. If I remember correctly Sannin too were struggling against Hanzo because of his ability to escape with Space time Ninjutsu. In fact he uses this to escape our current character of discussion Nagato. Minato Is leaps and bounds above that in my opinion..
Did he?
If obito wanted he could have attacked Torune from his blind spot while he was removing parasites. They barely lasted minutes if you ask me.
Also I think most of these fighters have very less experience regarding space time ninjutsu. If I remember correctly Sannin too were struggling against Hanzo because of his ability to escape with Space time Ninjutsu. In fact he uses this to escape our current character of discussion Nagato. Minato Is leaps and bounds above that in my opinion..
(Edited by Namikazenaruto9)
<p>@Legion
Shino wasn't the only platoon member. I hope you get what I am getting at. They got too many tries and even than Shino didn't exactly figure it out immediately.
As for Fuu and Torune's case, Either they are stupid or they never realized they were facing a Space-time ninjutsu user. Figuring out what Obito can do with Kamui is what they did in nutshell but they still fell for every single trap. </p>
Shino wasn't the only platoon member. I hope you get what I am getting at. They got too many tries and even than Shino didn't exactly figure it out immediately.
As for Fuu and Torune's case, Either they are stupid or they never realized they were facing a Space-time ninjutsu user. Figuring out what Obito can do with Kamui is what they did in nutshell but they still fell for every single trap. </p>
(Edited by Namikazenaruto9)
<div class="quote"><i>
<p>AsianReaper wrote:
Minato never actually figured out the mechanics behind Kamui. All he knew was that in order to hit Minato, logically Obito had to be tangible. So Minato had to hit him precisely when Obito thought he won, in order to get a hit before Obito's considerable reflexes saved him by activating Kamui.
</p><p>He found a counter that worked with his speed. He didn't know how Kamui worked.
</p>
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Actually he did. He even states during their confrontation that "this guy's Space time Ninjutsu surpasses both mine and Second Hokage's. Just to get to same point whole platoon had to attack him for like what 20-30 times? That's definitely gap in combat intelligence. In fact Two of the dojutsu user couldn't figure out what kind of jutsu that was. Minato did that in one look. <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Also Kamui got broken down by Foo and Torune..surprising that Kakashi failed. </p> </i></div>
<p>I doubt that is the case, since Danzo and cohorts could have hands on Kakashi's data/report to Tsunade.(not to mention he got the info required to sway 5 Kages summit from Him).Once the category of jutsu is figure out it's pretty easy to counter.(remember how they didn't make any mistake like trying to categories it as Genjutsu or something). </p>
Actually he did. He even states during their confrontation that "this guy's Space time Ninjutsu surpasses both mine and Second Hokage's. Just to get to same point whole platoon had to attack him for like what 20-30 times? That's definitely gap in combat intelligence. In fact Two of the dojutsu user couldn't figure out what kind of jutsu that was. Minato did that in one look. <div class="quote"><i> <p>Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Also Kamui got broken down by Foo and Torune..surprising that Kakashi failed. </p> </i></div>
<p>I doubt that is the case, since Danzo and cohorts could have hands on Kakashi's data/report to Tsunade.(not to mention he got the info required to sway 5 Kages summit from Him).Once the category of jutsu is figure out it's pretty easy to counter.(remember how they didn't make any mistake like trying to categories it as Genjutsu or something). </p>
(Edited by Namikazenaruto9)
<div class="quote"><i>
<p>LegionZero wrote:
Nah they figured out Kamui, they just didnt have antthing in their moveset to counter it.
</p>
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<p>They didn't. Should I remind you about several tries from Shino, Naruto, Sakura, Kiba, Yamato, Hinata and Kakashi(as dojutsu spectator). </p>
<p>They didn't. Should I remind you about several tries from Shino, Naruto, Sakura, Kiba, Yamato, Hinata and Kakashi(as dojutsu spectator). </p>
(Edited by Namikazenaruto9)
<p>^I didn't say Sasuke's Susanoo was weaker than Kurama. I only pointed out when Sasuke's Susanoo started overpowering Kurama. In fact If I remember correctly Madara calls PS's power rivalling that of biju.
For second one is this Anime exclusive? I didn't see it in manga? </p>
For second one is this Anime exclusive? I didn't see it in manga? </p>
(Edited by Namikazenaruto9)