All posts by XShadyShadow

<p>Probably Itachi, I don't see old Hiruzen dealing with Susano'o especially since if he gets tagged once with his sword then he's sealed away. Although if this is prime Hiruzen then he probably wins. </p>

<p>Sasuke would probably win, however he'd have his hands full with Gedo Mazou and PS vs his own PS. That would be interesting to see, however in terms of taijustsu he pwns. </p><p>@LoneNinja Teen Sasuke is not on par with Juubidara, especially not Juubidara with three eyes. That's absurd. In fact, no version of Sasuke is superior to end Juubidara. </p>

<p>@Nashikeine 1)Well of course he used Susanoo to block it because he was distracted and Oonoki helped Naruto. What point are you making? Him using Susanoo doesn't matter given the circumstances. That doesn't give a point to Naruto at all. It means nothing. </p><p>2) Kurama fears Madara, he also commands Perfect Susanoo. The point here is that it's implied Madara > Kurama. It's heavily implied, doesn't need to be shown. </p><p>3) It's more than just a fraction of a second and Madara wouldn't need to be on par with Itachi. Sasuke put killer bee under Genjutsu (Who has better synergy by far with the eight tails than Naruto does with Kurama for the record.) which aided in him dodging an attack. Sasuke got tagged after the fact because he let his guard down and Killer bee is faster. Madara is likely better at Genjutsu than Sasuke, he's faster than Naruto, and Naruto/Kurama don't have enough teamwork at this time to be better than Killer bee/Hachiibi. </p><p>4) I'm sorry but Madara is dodging Rasenshiriken, takes too much prep time, and Madara was reacting to the raikage's speed. </p><p>5) How does destroying wood clones relate to the wood dragon? The wood dragon also suppressed BM Naruto in his Kurama state by Madara's own useage. </p><p>6 & 7) Naruto's Rasengan isn't doing damage to PS. In base Madara is too fast to get tagged by Naruto. PS tanked a tailed beast bomb, plus I'm certain Madara's sword slashes would cancel them out except Madara can swing faster than Kurama can charge a TBB. The barrages are faster but still take a bit of charge. </p><p>8) The Juubi far surpasses anything Naruto or EMS Madara can dish out. I'll check that out in a bit. </p><p>9)Just because you were keeping pace with someone momentarily doesn't mean you fight on par with them. Juubito >>>>>> BM Naruto easily. </p><p>I'm using perfect logic, you just don't understand. By no admission am I saying that base EMS Madara >> Edo Madara. What I'm telling you is that Madara said he's stronger when he's alive and what he meant was his base stats meaning in terms of taijutsu i.e physical strength, speed and things of that nature. That's why he casually blitzed Naruto with no eyes. Edo Madara has stronger abilities, but is physically weaker. No, Madara absorbing Amateratsu was of his own accord. Look it up on the wiki, it's because of his own unique ability or something of that regard. You can absorb chakra without useage of the Rinnegan, the Rinnegan's useage is just the most potent. Yeah, Naruto waa caught off guard but I doubt it'd have made a difference. Alive Madara is too fast for Naruto. Anyways, this is overdrawn. Like I said before, Naruto here is literally outclassed. </p><p>EMS Madara is better than Naruto in almost every regard. The ONLY thing keeping BM Naruto in this fight is Kurama. Kurama and Naruto are also largely inexperienced working together as Madara has had tons of experience using his PS. PS alone dwarfed the five kage. I highly doubt BM Naruto in his Kurama state alone is beating the five kage. </p>

<p>@Nashikeine </p><p>1) Naruto got help in hitting Madara with that Rasengan (Onoki.), otherwise he wouldn't have hit him on top of the fact that Madara was distracted with fodder. Just like how Temari hit Madara with a wind style technique when he was battling the shinobi alliance, does that mean Temari can attack faster than Madara can react? No. He was distracted. </p><p>2) I don't see your point, if Madara wanted to yes I'm certain he could beat Kurama into submission but what would be the point if he can just genjutsu him, especially if the whole reason for confronting him to start was just to prep against Hashirama. </p><p>3) Genjutsu does work on perfect Jinchuriki, it's just only temporary. </p><p>4) Once again, Naruto got help in hitting Madara with that seeing as though Gaara and Ooniki pulled him out of his Susanoo and while Gaara waa swinging him in the air Naruto threw it. EMS wouldn't be needed for it seeing as though Madara can just Dodge it. If Naruto could hit Madara with it that easy then he'd have been blitzing Madara during the war arc with it easily. Naruto isn't getting outside help/influence here. </p><p>5) What does Naruto destroying wood clones have to do with juat about anything? </p><p>6) Okay? A Rasengan isn't beating Madara. If anything this battle is gonna come down to PS vs Naruto in link with Kurama. </p><p>7) TBB takes too long to charge, Madara casually does that in swings. TBB are balls, they don't have true effect until they land, therefore you can knock them away, grab them as shown with Hashirama, etc. Susanoo sword is a blunt force object, the nature of it's attack is different. It operates differently from TBBs, once it swings it's already doing full damage and you need to dodge. </p><p>8) Tell me the manga panel and page where Naruto and Kurama tanked the Juubi's TBB. I find that hilarious because the Juubi can pluck the eight tails and nine tails away like a bug. </p><p>BM Naruto wasn't fighting on even ground against Juubito, Juubito would've one shot him and Sasuke had Minato not saved them. The only reason BM Naruto pulled the tailed beasts out of Obito was because he had the help of the entire shinobi alliance along with Sasuke. Plus Obito's will faltered. In a one on one scenario Juubito would stomp Naruto. </p><p>Edo Madara said he was stronger when he was alive. Surely he meant in terms of base stats. Dude, Madara with no eyes and no sage mode blitzed Naruto with ease. Madara is literally superior to BM Naruto in every way, speed, potentcy, power, experience, skill, etc. The only thing keeping Naruto in this fight is Kurama. However that isn't enough to bridge the gap for Naruto. This is only a 50% Kurama albeit he has a Jinchuriki host. Madara's PS tanked a tailed beast bombs from a 100% Kurama. Naruto has nothing that scares or could handle Madara, he's even wielded Kurama before, he has full Intel on him. Madara wins low diff. Naruto and Kurama are largely inexperienced working together also. </p>

<p>@LoneNinja Agreed with the first half, completely disagree with the second half. </p>

<p>Um. If this is Madara wielding all three Rinnegan then Madara wins. </p><p>@Drawingblank2014 Sorry to burst your bubble but Madara absorbed the shinju tree, yes he's immortal. No basis for it? You mean aside from the fact that Sasuke literally cut him in half and he was fine? Yeah, that totally doesn't scream immortality. His arrogance doesn't play a role here, he had full or considerable Intel on the Juubi, Shinju tree, Rinnegan, etc. Madara was decieved by Black zetsu due to his arrogance. </p>

I don't see what there is to debate. Kaguya one shots with her gravity dimension/Ash killing bone.

<p>In Scenario one, Madara loses pretty handidly. Scenario two is hard to say because we aren't quite sure just how strong Madara is with two Rinnegan. Momoshiki and Kinshiki are God's but lack the versatility and skill Madara has, however the power gap might be too vast. Scenario 3, Madara wins handidly. </p>

<p>I'm surprised people are saying Naruto wins. EMS Madars smacks BM Naruto;Madara fodderizes any Naruto except for SO6P version onwards (In EMS anyways.) Madara wins because PS can tank tailed beast bombs, Naruto at this point is largely inexperienced with it, and Madara is vastly more skilled along with the fact that Madara has full Intel on Kurama's abilities, he's wielded him before in the past. Isn't this also just a 50% Kurama as well?? Yeah, Madara takes this low diff. </p>

<p>@Natrix Spiritual Cloak Gleam I dunno what you're going on about but it looks like you're trolling. In fact I'm certain you're trolling, Itachi can't fight demi-gods of Naruto and is out classed by quite a few people. Madara ranking very high among them. Totsuka and Yata are pointless against Madara, his Perfect Susano'o is massive enough to just step on it. He could literally squish Itachi like a bug if he wanted or just blitz him. Itachi can't even compete. </p><p>@Ninja Just ignore him, he's trolling. Not worth debating. </p>

<p>I dunno why but I'm seeing a debate between Itachi and Madara. Madara shits all over Itachi, I'm sorry but get over it. </p><p>I also saw a debate earlier speaking on Madara vs Naruto and Sasuke. If you have even an ounce of common sense you could tell Madara was far too much for Naruto and Sasuke after achieving his full power. The only time they could've beaten Madara was when he had one Rinnegan, after gaining his second Rinnegan and the Rinne Sharingan(a piece of Kaguya's power I might add.) it was quite clear what the outcome was gonna be. Team 7 was surrounded by Limbo and didn't know how to respond for god sakes, Kishimoto had to substitute Madara for Kaguya and used a nonsensical plot device to do it (BZ.) Despite the fact that Kaguya is stronger than Madara regarding raw power, she lacks a lot that he has mainly versatility and experience. </p><p>Madara was far better equipped to deal with team 7 than she was. Then again she could've actually one shot them had Kakashi and Obito not intervened. So it wasn't just Kaguya vs Naruto and Sasuke but Kaguya vs Naruto, Sasuke, Sakura, Kakashi and Obito with SO6P influence. </p>

<p>@Kakashisologod1 I already told you how Madara is faster, you just need to pay attention. In every feat you just named, Sasuke is using Ameno which is an ability that came with his Rinnegan. Pay close attention, it's an ABILITY. Meaning he can't use it 100% of the time also meaning it's not his base stat, base Madara is faster than base Sasuke meaning with no enhancements or useage of dojutsu. Madara's Limbo copy his stats therefore Limbo Madara >> Sasuke in terms of speed unless Sasuke uses Ameno. </p><p>What makes me think Madara can? Maybe because Madara already reacted to Sasuke's Ameno before being cut in half? And said he realized that it had a range limitation? Plus Naruto was distracted with the Fireball that Sasuke shot at him prior, just fyi. </p>

<p>I don't know how people back Itachi this far. Itachi was a good shinobi that had a lot of potential but he is not anywhere near close to Madara. It's an absolute stomp, regardless of what version of Madara you wanna pick and no matter how much you wanna wank Itachi. You could give Itachi in his best form on his best day, Madara still stomps on his worse day and worst form. Itachi is severely outclassed regarding every stat in comparison to Madara. Just lock/close this thread, it's absolute spite from the raging Itachi fanboys that don't wanna face facts to the original reason this thread was even created was to start a fanwar. This thread is just pointless and stupid hate/spite. </p>

<p>@Kakashisologod1 The only time when Madara wasn't able to react to Ameno was the first time it was used against him, the second time Ameno was ever used against him is when he was cut in half;before he was touched he actually spoke and looked at Sasuke thus reacted before he was sliced but didn't dodge for various reasons: 1)He knew he'd be okay </p><p>2) He openly stated prior that due to his powers he was getting a bit sloppy (When fighting the tailed beasts.) </p><p>3) His goal was getting back his second Rinnegan, if he had dodged then Naruto would've catched up thus lowering the odds of him getting the Rinnegan. Hell even when Sasuke caught up Madara said he was beginning to understand how his eye worked and understood the range limit of the teleportation. </p><p>Limbo's are faster and stronger than Sasuke physically as they copy Madara's stats (base mode in this instance.) The only time Sasuke is quicker than Madara and his Limbo is with Ameno but it has a cooldown and is a technique;not his actual speed. </p>

<p>It depends, if this is one Rinnegan eyed Madara then Sasuke wins. If Madara has both Rinnegan then Madara wins. The only problem Madara would face against Rinnegan Sasuke is Ameno but even then he was able to figure out how it worked and that it had a limitation of range. Plus Madara's Limbo could give him extra lives if he does get blitzed, so I'm gonna go with Madara. </p><p>@BlazeRelease I could disprove most of that post but I'm far too lazy to keep scrolling back and forth to do so. But I will say this, how does being able to see Madara's Limbo make them useless? If me and four other people were about to jump you, and we're all stronger than you physically, faster and smarter how does you being able to harm and see us, make us less of a threat? I'm sorry but that's very poor reasoning. It's like the gun analogy, just because I'm pointing a gun at you and you know I'm gonna shoot doesn't mean you can dodge the bullet. Hell, Sasuke was afraid of the 4 Limbos most of the time during his fight with Madara. He even warned Naruto and was scared once they got surrounded. The only thing Sasuke really has going in this fight is Ameno but Madara can Limbo swap if things get nasty and he already was finding out it's limitations. Sasuke has to rely on blitzing Madara with Ameno if he wants to win. </p>

<p>@Kinglink15 Any form of Madara stomps any form of Itachi with ease (Healthy or not.) And is there any link to the interview of Kishimoto saying Itachi would win? As far as I'm concerned that was a rumor and is clearly false. This thread should be locked, lol. But a lot of characters can beat Itachi. </p>

<p>Naruto wins with mid-difficulty. His taijutsu is better in SM so in an upfront confrontation, he'd be superior. The only chance Danzo has is getting him with the suicidal seal but even that is unlikely, or perhaps the very first time or two he uses izanagi to reappear behind Naruto and try to stab him by surprise but I'm certain Naruto could react and sense it in time. Also Naruto summonings > Danzo summonings. Danzo is outmatched here. </p><p>Also regarding Naruto vs Pain, Naruto did get lucky. He had intel on Pain, created 3 SM clones to extend his SM uses and still lost. He only got redeemed/had a second chance by Hinata, and even then when he transformed nearly into the nine tails Pain still had him entrapped inside of CT so he still had a fair bit of control. </p>

<p>@NamikazeNaruto9 Yeah I'm clearly wasting my time debating with you. You literally just said if Sasuke and Naruto were beating Madara with one Rinnegan then they can clearly beat Madara with another Rinnegan powerup. That is by far the most illogical thing I've ever read, especially considering Madara made a CT leagues above Sasuke's and Nagatos upon obtaining it and yes Madara compared his CT to raindrops. You keep going in circles that with arguments that aren't making much sense but you don't realize it. Also, what does Kaguya's taijutsu destroying a PS have to do with Hagoromo? That's a feat for Kaguya not Hagoromo. You can't even scale him off of that because like I said before I'm sure that she was beaten with useage of dojutsu prowess. Of course someone would believe Madara is superior in taijutsu considering their is 5 of him essentially, and he actually has established taijutsu feats that are very good. </p><p>How about I go to the appropiate thread? If I didn't do that then how would I be able to list two people to you that disagreed with you while you haven't named even one person that agreed? The burden of proof regarding that is on you. And I don't know what to tell you, the Rinne Sharingan is above the Rinnegan in terms of destructive capabilities and it's scaling. I dunno how you're trying to disagree with manga feats/facts but okay. </p>

<p>@Namikazenaruto9 "A Rinnegan holder can open dimensions." See the difference? Sasuke can make a portal to GET to Kaguyas dimension, Kaguya literally changes the entirety of the landscape to HER dimension in which she controls. Sasuke can only enter or leave said dimension, he doesn't have one of his own. Not only that but it's incredibly taxing for Sasuke to even do that, he only has two tries at best. And actually yes the Rinne Sharingan can save you from a path, it's called changing the dimension to either where you and your jutsu fall in lava or get pinned in her desert realm where she can one-shot you and it with ease. It's whichever way you wanna die. The only reason Sasuke lived was because he had PS that could fly, that's a MS ability not a Rinnegan one. And yes, I'm gonna continue to use Sasuke and Kaguya because it's the only interaction we've seen of Rinne Sharingan and Rinnegan against one another. Don't you get it? She doesn't need to grab Sasuke, or anyone for that sake to teleport them. She can change the landscape to her dimension. And like I said before, the Rinne Sharingan has planetary level feats. The Rinnegan does not, by scaling that makes it stronger. Having resistance against it doesn't exactly make you better, the Rinne Sharingan has better potency. Experience can't negate that big of a power gap so saying Sasuke was new with his Rinnegan is irrelevant. </p><p>1) You are overrating Shadow clones, you previously said they could use devastating ninjutsu but now you're talking about a shadow clones durability?? Stay on topic, they only gain a portion of the original users power. Them being durable isn't the same as them doing "devastating ninjutsu." You're overrating shadow clones, severely underestimating the Rinne Sharingan by not acknowledging it's superiority over other dojutsu, and downplaying Madara's Limbo. Sasuke himself said that his and Naruto's physical attacks don't work on Limbo. </p><p>2) First and foremost, Naruto had only sealed one not a few but it wasn't Naruto's doing. Naruto and Sasuke both incapacitated it because they blitz(Sasuke's Ameno.) Madara with a sealing jutsu but Madara swapped himself out for his Limbo. Naruto+Sasuke >> Naruto clones. No Naruto cannot beat Madara in terms of taijutsu. Madara did get a second chance to use Limbo, Sasuke said they were surrounding him and Naruto before the whole BZ thing happened. Also, Madara >> Naruto taijutsu in base. Right? Madara being a TTJ+Sage mode is better than Naruto's six paths sage mode. Madara blocked SSP Naruto's attack while being severely beaten and wounded by Eight gates gai. You have to agree or else you retract your argument about Hagoromo being better than Madara because of his base. </p><p>3) See you need to pay attention, notice how I said "Dual Rinnegan Madara." Not one Rinnegan Madara so that's fairly irrelevant. And your statement makes no sense, Madara casted CT and sent Limbo's at them at the same time. So how would Madara think Limbo wouldn't be a good enough distraction if he literally used them both in conjuction? If Madara's Limbo weren't a threat then Sasuke wouldn't have warned Naruto about them being outside, if they weren't a threat then Naruto would've used his shadow clones against them again in the end (He didn't and wouldn't because Naruto realized that would be a waste of chakra.) If they weren't a threat Naruto's clones would've beat them and Madara wouldn't have used them if ineffective. Sasuke has also once again said that Naruto and his own physical attacks don't work on Limbo. I can keep telling you ways how you're wrong. Exactly, it took both Naruto and Sasuke to destroy something Madara casually created and thought of as raindrops, keep proving my point. </p><p>4) You are misinformed and I've used everything canon to inform you. What're you talking about? What non-canon have I used while debating you? Don't worry, I'll wait. No one agreed with you regarding Madara not having PS, Bakumatsu joined in and thought it was retarded that some people actually believed EMS Madara didn't have PS. You just keep making up stuff or what you're saying is flat out wrong. Killer723 disagreed with you too. You know what annoys me? Having to constantly rehash many things to you that the manga has made clear. </p><p>5)It doesn't matter. Why? Because he was using his two Rinnegan and MS. He got a power up beforehand, that was the powerup. If he fought Kaguya with his brother with a bare Sharingan or without MS or Rinnegan then I'd give that to you because that means they won without haxed eyes therefore pointing to his base attributes/taijutsu but that's not the case. Hagoromo fighting Kaguya with his brother when he has two Rinnegan and a MS says nothing about about his taijutsu. Him being an Ootsuki gives him strong chakra, yet says nothing about his taijutsu once again. It's not that I'm forgetting anything, it's the simple fact that you are by not acknowledging Hagoromo got an eye power up before fighting her. </p>

<p>@NarutoNamikaze9 It's not about me hyping anything, I'm literally telling you the truth and facts. All mentioned jutsu are planetary, if not damn near period. If anything you're trying to down-play the Rinne Sharingan to appeal to a point that you've already failed to make, you know what your saying isn't true so now you're resorting to downplaying established feats. Are you serious? The desert Ameno could've easily solo'd Naruto and Sasuke (Oh lookie, a Rinnegan wielder.) if they didn't have plot armor and Obito there to save them. On two seperate occasions actually when she tossed Sasuke in another Ameno location. No Rinnegan path can save you from that. Rinne Sharingan > All dojutsu. It's powers are stronger than any other dojutsu, you clearly don't know how scaling works. Just because you have immunity or resistance to something doesn't degrade it's potency, the Rinne Sharingan has shown far more devastating feats than the Rinnegan. One including Ameno that can one-shot a Rinnegan user. You're downplaying and it's irritating, stop it. </p><p>1) It's not devastating lol, you're overrating shadow clones. As I've said before shadow clones only gain a portion of the users overall chakra/strength while Limbo retains all stats. One Madara limbo clone pre-Juubi amped knocked all tailed beasts away with one hit on each Tailed beast. </p><p>2) Doubt it. You're actually putting yourself in a corner, if you're saying Naruto clones > Limbo then are you saying that Naruto can beat Juubidara in terms of taijutsu? There was no ninjutsu involved. You're off somewhere and you know it. It's pretty clear Madara's limbo clones defeated Naruto's considering Madara used them again to surround team 7. Especially since Naruto didn't use clones again as a response, so if Madara used them against Naruto again and the whole team 7, Limbo clones had zero damage after tussling with Naruto's clones and Naruto didn't bother with using clones against them again, what does that tell you? Why would Madara bother with Limbo if it proved ineffective? Clearly the Limbo clones > Naruto's shadow clones. But you're gonna look for something inaccurate to make a false point. You do it everytime, face facts and learn to infer. Just because the manga doesn't flat out say something doesn't mean it isn't so if manga feats make it more than obvious. </p><p>3) Running away? Dual Rinnegan Juubidara ran away from Naruto and Sasuke? LOL. He casually made a CT that was leagues better than Nagato's and it took both Naruto and Sasuke to take out those CT while Madara called them raindrops. Yeah he was "running away." Sasuke even noted that they wouldn't stop coming. It's more than obvious he flew upwards to actually complete what he set out to do (IT.) and to attain the Rinne Sharingan. Especially considering he came back and said he was done toying with them. You can't debate this, they'd get wrecked. </p><p>Are you serious right now? Hagoromo gained BOTH his Rinnegan and MS on his forehead just before fighting Kaguya because he essentially killed his brother but revived him with the tag the toad gave him. Do you pay attention at all? Either you have something against Madara or you're just heavily misinformed. You're the same person who thought EMS Madara didn't have PS. Lol. </p><p>@QuakingStar Base Hagoromo is better than base Madara, but once again in terms of chakra. Doubt it for actual skill and taijutsu. In terms of TTJ it's literally the same story, Hagoromo has the better chakra easily while it's literally the same for Madara in terms of dojutsu and taijutsu. </p>