All posts by CombatIQmatters

<p>@Ninja of War and @Senpai </p><p>You have been debunked. I could care less how tired you are getting, I am more tired than you because everything I said directly comes from the manga, so don't even go there, you are the ones being stubborn. I am just gonna lop in my points all together and you can pinpoint what applies to each of you. </p><p>1) Concession accepted. You ignored the fact that old Hiruzen in life couldn't make many shadow clones as he could in his prime specifically because of low chakra reserves. As an Edo, he unforunately was still brought back in old age, he was only able to risk it with 5 clones with high level techniques because his stamina would regenerate and he has an undying body. Kakashi admitting to not being able to spam as many shadow clones and maintain them as Naruto puts this argument to rest. It's BECAUSE shadow clones divide your chakra down evenly that's its dangerous in the first place. If your chakra capacity is too low you are shooting yourself in the foot the more you make.The technique is amplified when you have more chakra avialable. >Stronger clones,> more clones made without risk, etc. All amplifications and benefits due to having more chakra. </p><p>2) Concession accepted yet again. LIES. Genjutsu and ninjutsu were grouped together while taijutsu was kept separate. Ignored the fact that in the manga Hozuki specifically stated that genjutsu falls UNDER YIN RELEASE. A NATURE TRANSFORMATION. Stop trolling and acknowledge the facts. Ninjutsu? Chakra given shape or form or nature transformation. Genjutsu? Chakra moulded into Yin release (nature transformation) and inserted into the enemy through hearing, sight, touch, etc, to control the chakra in their cranial nerves to manipulate 5 senses. Give it up already. </p><p>3) What you are saying makes ZERO sense. When Ohnoki fired a jinton cube at Sasuke, it was small, compared to the SAME CUBE he fired at Madara's 25 wood clones once he was juiced up on Tsunade's chakra. Same exact Jinton variant, yet boosted by having more chakra available. He a made bigger jinton cube, even though Madara was shown to easily absorb it. It was WORTH the risk because it was their best chance to win the fight. Itachi is at THIRTY PERCENT, for the millionth time. That means, LESS CHAKRA available for the genjutsu he can transmit through anyone of his ten fingers. At Thirty percent, he can't use Tsykuyomi or Amaterasu because the minimum chakra amount required could not be reached without screwing him over. With more reserves available, he CAN AFFORD to put more chakra in to his finger genjutsu, which is clearly extremely cheap in comparison to his MS techniques in terms of minimum cost. Use common sense. You are comparing issues 30 percent Itachi has to a 100 percent Itachi. Itachi has perfect chakra control, THEREFORE, let's say Ephemeral only costs 5 percent, that means, if he decides to MOULD MORE CHAKRA, let's say bump it up to ten percent, that is ten percent more chakra expended. We have seen that adding more chakra to genjutsu allows you to both control more targets ( even targets with reserves as massive as bijuu) and control targets with better effectiveness, and MAINTAIN said control over resisting targets, so I don't want to see any more lies. Obito and Kakashi debunk you in Chapter 567. I posted that information, and you still ignored it. Concession accepted. 100 percent Itachi can AFFORD to overextend his chakra a bit if he needs to to ensure his genjutsu isn't broken, if the GOAL is to win by incapacitating. </p><p>4)Huge exaggeration. Naruto's chakra control got MARGINALLY better as he practiced. Still, by the end, he could only summon a marginally more developed frog. This is a meaningless point, because the point is, his chakra boost from kyuubi chakra put in most of the weight for gamabunta, which is the whole point. </p><p>5)Concession accepted. Genjutsu and ninjutsu gets more potent the moren chakra put in. Itachi's Tsykuyomi when cast on Sasuke without time manipulation wasn't anywhere near as draining as the ones he casted with intense time manipulation. If he wants to make it a 100 years it's gonna take alot of chakra. We have seen edo Tensei get exhausted many times from using chakra taxing techniques. In fact, Edo Itachi is still slightly weaker than alive Itachi as stated multiple times. The Edo were brought back CLOSE to their origninal power Itachi can cast tsykuyomi for simple tasks like manipulating an incapacitated Kabuto and having him show him the signs for the edo Tensei with no strain. So yea, get your accusations the hell out of here. I support everything I say with evidence from the manga. No assumptions made. Critique the evidence instead of strawmanning. </p><p>6)Concession accepted. Genjutsu Kai is a ninjutsu technique that requires one to mould chakra and then manipulate said chakra to disturb their chakra flow and bring it to a stop to nullify the malicious yin release chakra. Jiraiya's exact words in Chapter 260: 'While your caught, your chakra is under your opponent's control. If you can BREAK that control, and disturb the chakra flow, you can break the genjutsu" Naruto was seen moulding chakra up and Itachi commented on it and stated that he improved. Moulding chakra and controlling it is essential. Naruto's ability to mould a massive amount of chakra offsets his chakra control issue as we have seen several times. You ignore the moulding chakra component and only focus on chakra control because it destroys your argument. Kakashi would absolutely struggle with ephemeral without his sharingan activated, and he wasn't a desired target. Itachi trapping naruto is absolutely a feat, and he had experience as Itachi clearly said he IMPROVED. Even without that, Itachi only has 30 percent chakra available, so concession accepted. His 100 percent ephemeral is much stronger, no amount of ignoring manga facts is changing that. As I said from the beginning, War Arc naruto maybe able to break out of 30 percent Itachi's genjutsu, but he sure as hell ain't breaking 100 percent Itachi's ephemeral without help from Kurama. </p><p>7)Irrelevant. The point is, Itachi was the FIRST person Ao and Shikaku thought of. The fact that they realized the feat was impossible for anyone doesn't degrade Itachi in anyway. Even Shisui couldn't do what Itachi was potrayed to do. He can still control ALOT of targets without sensor types detecting him, even if he can't do entire alliance subdivisions. That is a feat of his genjutsu skill, never attributed to his sharingan or anything like that. It's all Itachi. No other sharingan user or genjutsu user would have been able to do what Itachi did. </p><p>8) Clearly deflecting from the point. Tsunade has never shown any skill with genjutsu and neither has Shikmaru despite being Yin release users. Even if they can, not everyone can do it. </p><p>Moving on, @Ikbalsinghdhanjal </p><p>
1) A decently charged 30 percent Itachi's finger genjutsu would trap Oro, so yeah, no. Itachi already one shot the dude with 3 tomoe genjutsu. You are right that Oro can close his eyes, And Kabuto stated that he was immune to ALL visual genjutsu, and Itachi was forced to use a genjutsu that relied on the sense of touch in order to get Kabuto change his fate. So finger genjutsu still uses the eye as the medium. Too bad that Itachi is going for the kill in this fight and he has alot more going on than genjutsu. </p><p>
2) The moment Itachi entered that cave, Kabuto was scared shitless of Totsuka, even immediately revealing to Itachi how the edo tensei can be broken so that his life could be spared. There is a reason why he immediately told him the truth, he was scared. He said "Lady luck shines on me" because he was smart enough to IMMEDIATELY create a situation where Itachi's Totsuka was restricted ( the only thing in Itachi's arsenal that can put him down) and stacked a genjutsu immunity on top of that. He was also in his home court, a cave, which was shown and stated to optimize a lot of his newfound Sage mode abilities. Kabuto is a genius, Itachi still defeated him on the first move. 1)Easily countered white rage and protected Sasuke 2) then immediately deduced a strategy to initiate izanami. 3) His SMALL yakasa beads (not even the bijuu dama sized ones he fired at chibaku tensei) were strong enough to STUN SM Kabuto to the point that Kabuto could NOT dodge Sasuke's susano'o arrow, the same arrow he casually dodged moments before. If that was Totsuka, Kabuto was already dead. 4)Kabuto was pinned on the ceiling temporarily. He used it as a lure to draw Itachi in to stab Itachi. Itachi already read his move in advance though and prepared one of his untraceable clone feints, and easily cut off Kabuto's horn from behind. Again, if that was Totsuka, Kabuto was one shotted. Everything else that happened after that in that fight is irrelevant, because Itachi was handicapped due to preparing and charging izanami, something that won't be happening in this vs battle. As soon as it was charged, SM Kabuto got lolbunshinfeinted yet again for the win. </p><p>2)Headcanon, Totsuka blade sure is shit isn't slow. In the official Viz translation, Orochimaru was perfectly aware he was in a fight with Itachi, that much was obvious, he was staring right at him and talking. Orochimaru was cut off MID SENTENCE by the blade coursing through him. Orochimaru has superhuman reaction time compared to us real life humans. He was caught off guard mid-speech, was visibly confused and shocked in his facial expression, and said "eh?". His optic nerve couldn't process the blade's speed, only someone biased would claim otherwise. With Nagato it was the same thing. Watching a giant ass blade coming at him from a decent distance away out of a clearing smokescreen, still got blitzed without a mental reaction. No Shinra tensei, no Preta, no Shurado, no summonings, no body flicker, no substituttion jutsu, nothing. Straight up blitzed. Not hard to see why Black Zetsu called him invincible with Yata and Totsuka. </p><p>5) off topic, because Yata is restricted in this thread, but more headcanon. Yata is absolutely omnidirectional, we saw it growing in size, changing in shape, changing curvature, growing more extensions, the whole nine yards in response to attacks. In some cases we see it clearly covering the back of Susano'o and even the sides. </p><p>So in short, everything you said is completely false. </p><p>Itachi has proven himself in every fight he has been in. Successfully Clone feinted Kakashi, Kurenai, and Asuma all at the same time and established a win condition. Successfully Clone Feinted Hebi Sasuke and had a win condition( Sasuke was grappling a clone, it could have been rigged to explode) Clone feinted Nagato, KCM Naruto, and Killer Bee all at the same time. Nagato was physically holding him, and yet Itachi substituted out with a shadow clone without naruto, bee, or Nagato noticing, and went for a skydiving trip lmao. Killer Bee was outright shit diff'd. He registered a "?!!" in response to Itachi's impossible clone feinting skill. Nagato and Naruto only noticed he was in mid-air after he was already coming close to landing on them, due to their incredible sensory skills, but even so, it took Itachi DISPELLING his shadow clone in order for them to notice that they had all been duped in the first place. Later in that same fight. Itachi shunshin'd behind Killer Bee, a perfect jinchuriki, told him he was behind him, and Killer Bee's response was : "got it". LMAO. Killer Bee didn't even notice he just got speed blitzed and had to be told that Itachi was behind him. Itachi cared about bee. If he was serious, the totsuka blade would have been in the back of Bee's head, or even a kunai at that point. Later in that same fight, Itachi caught Killer Bee in genjutsu without him noticing. Killer Bee was standing in la la land grabbing a fake Itachi with a tentacle that we clearly saw that he truly released into the ground. Itachi just wasn't where Bee thought he was. Itachi turned into crows to make it quite obvious that Bee was in genjutsu and had been made to beleive that he had won. If Itachi chose not to do that in his illusion, Bee was a sitting duck. He then told Bee to never look in his eyes lmao. Base 3 tomoe Itachi caught someone at the level of Killer Bee slacking three times in the same fight with zero difficulty.... even stalemated his seven sword style with a mere kunai, and only retreated in order to do something about Edo tensei. </p><p>Itachi has clone feinted EVERY single person he has been in a fight with. His clone feints are essentially instant, undetectable, and unavoidable for these 3 opponents, especially given his near instant hand seal speed. </p><p>Bijuu dama sized yakasa beads alone are enough to box Orochimaru in and one shot him with Totsuka. An Itachi crow clone will immediately get behind Kimimaro and snipe him with amaterasu, no way around it. Itachi can make his clones get the drop on the people from above, or behind, and the smokescreens and shunshin speed that can blitz killer Bee easily stomps someone at the level of Kimimaro, he won't know what him. Susano'o was used for what, maybe 20 seconds? one crow clone ( which can be made cheaper than the standard shadow clone). The crow clone can cast a katon variant at konan, then rush her and explode into crows, it's job is done. After Kimimaro and Orochimaru are incapacitated after the first 20 seconds or so of the fight, 100 percent Itachi has plenty in the tank to finish Konan with ephemeral if he wanted, taking advantage of his karasu bunshin's stunning effect. </p><p>The fight is literally that simple, Oro- Yakasa beads+ Totsuka. 5 -10 seconds max and he is done. Kimimaro, clone feinted during smokescreens from yakasa, and sniped from behind around the same time Oro gets blitzed by Totsuka. Konan, finished by crow clone's katon+ disorienting crows, followed by Real Itachi shunshining her and catching her in ephemeral while she is distracted. If Itachi was willing to expend some chakra to put naruto to sleep with just 30 percent of his strength available, 100 percent Itachi after only mildly exerting himself with a less than 20 seconds of Susano'o usage and one somewhat cheap crow clone, can do it easily. The fight doesn't last more than 30 seconds. </p>

<p>@Sinister </p><p>Completely illogical? Bias? Your post itself is biased and lacks any substance or evidence. Orochimaru is an incredible foe with a wide arsenal of techniques who got one shotted by Itachi twice in the canon, yet you think Itachi vs Oro 1v1 is a fair fight. Totally not biased though. </p><p>I have shown zero bias. Meanwhile I can cite bias in this thread easily. -Most of the opposition has cited shortcomings from a thirty percent Itachi who wasn't fighting in a serious fight. -Ignores untraceable clone feinting. -ignores Totsuka blade speed feats and that it's a Sword of Kusanagi. -Claims thirty percent Itachi performs the same as 100 percent Itachi lmao. -Claims genjutsu isn't ninjutsu lmao... https://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Yin_Release Checkmate. Ebisu, Jiraiya, Itachi, Gengetsu Hozuki accepted their concessions. Yin release ITSELF is a nature transformation which inherently falls under ninjutsu. Yet I am supposed to beleive their fanfiction about genjutsu and ninjutsu working differently, lmao. It's the same stuff, just different effects and goals. Even in Chapter 567 pg 14, Kakashi clearly states that it requires ALOT of chakra for Obito to control multiple bijuu level enitities at once, proving the direct relationship between chakra output and genjutsu potency with the sharingan genjutsu. It's equally a feat of skill/chakra control and chakra amount. Obito has the reserves because he has hashirama cells. Come at me with some real counterarguments instead of copping out. </p>

<p>@JamesSenpai </p><p>I'm really doing my best to stay patient here... JIRAIYA CLEARLY Stated that genjutsu is an advanced ninjutsu, and I have said that multiple times. Why ignore unbiased character statements from credible characters that the author is using to directly inform readers on the mechanics of his manga, as well as things I have repeated in my post more than once. Genjutsu and ninjutsu is also clearly shown in the diagram Ebisu presented in Chapter 90 and no distinction is made between the two. So Concession accepted. </p><p>Your last point just proves my point. If the goal is to end the fight, Itachi can put as much chakra into his genjutsu as he wants. Who cares if he exhausts alot of his stamina if he won the fight. He has time to rest afterward in most scenarios. He was facing 4 opponents, arguably holding back, and was just using thirty percent of strength. He couldn't afford to make ephemeral as strong as he wanted or he would overextend. No ninja is dumb enough to put all their chakra in one technique unless they are certain it will end the fight. The manga clearly showed you that genjutsu requires advanced chakra control, but the mechanics are the same. Advanced chakra control just means weaving signs for manipulating yin release chakra is difficult for most ninja. Itachi has perfect chakra control, that much is obvious. Even if the minimum chakra required for Ephemeral is 1 percent of his overall reserves, it was clearly shown in Ebisu's diagram that the user can mould more than the minimum amount of chakra for ninjutsu AND/OR GENJUTSU to increase the technique, sufficient they have the chakra control to manipulate the additional chakra. Itachi with just 30 percent of his chakra at best would only go up to maybe 10 percent with the Ephemeral he used against Naruto. Furthermore, Itachi clearly layered the genjutsu. He wanted to use MS but couldn't so he switched to a genjutsu with a lower minimum chakra cost to one that would put naruto to sleep. Naruto then tried to resist, and Itachi himself commended his attempted application of Genjutsu:Kai. In order to sustain a genjutsu on someone in the first place, you need to continously contribute chakra, and being at thirty percent of his strength, he is limited. </p><p>Furthermore, you missed the point of why I brought this up in the first place. Itachi , as you yourself understand well (something I commended you for), has ALOT more going on then just genjutsu. His clone feints are UNDETECTABLE as far these opponents are concerned, and in fact are undetectable to most characters in the verse. Yeah, I said it. EMS Sasuke who can follow Juubito couldn't see Itachi's clone+ substitution technique. Let's take a trip back to Part one for a second, and @FaitoMai, this applies to you as well. In Chapter 6, Sasuke explains that Substitution technique is a feat of the user's Body Flicker combined with "skill" in order to create an optical illusion. The fact that ITachi isn't faster than Juubito outside of the context of his substitution jutsu allows me to believe that Substitution has a space/time component to it, otherwise people can't just randomly grab perfectly sliced logs. In addition, Zaku implied that substitution jutsu can be used in mid-air (where one can't use their running speed). So I beleive the technique is a combination of Body flicker as the parent technique, then some space/time component, and "skill". Itachi's skill with the technique makes him achieve a clone feinting speed greater than that of Juubito, as what he did was essentially: </p><p>He Made a crow clone without kabuto seeing despite the fact Itachi was right in front of him. Grabbed said crow clone and switched places with it the instant before Kabuto stabbed him. Said Crow clone then recorded the izanami experience, and because crow clones are shadow clones, the experience goes back to the user. The fact that Sasuke NOR Kabuto saw or sensed those actions proves that Itachi is on another level. His handseal speed is already untracebale. His clone formations are also untraceable. Clones always spawn next to the user, but no one has EVER seen Itachi's clones form on panel. He did the same thing in all three of the fights we have seen him used clones. Spawned a shadow clone without Kakashi, Asuma, or Kurenai noticing, used substitution jutsu, and got behind Kakashi. Spawned a shadow clone during a goddamm Shuriken CLASH with Sasuke, Sasuke didn't see the clone. Itachi grabbed said clone and swapped out with it and hid somehwere (probably underground) and then reappeared when he wanted. Kabuto I already explained </p><p>The reason most ninja don't use substitution in high level battles is because it's normally easily detected by competent ninja. But a genius like Itachi is so skilled he can clone feint at speeds greater than Juubito's shunshin. </p><p>Itachi uses his genjutsu as feints as well. He can easily take out Kimimaro and Orochimaru with his clone feints+ yakasa bead smokescreens,+ Totsuka alone. At that point, he can finish Konan with Ephemeral if he wanted to, because now he has no one else to worry about and can overextend his chakra input to make it potent as hell, and layer it like he did to Naruto to put her to sleep. </p><p>@Ninja of War </p><p>I very clearly distinguished my points carefully, thank you. I said name ONE jutsu that doesn't get amplified by having access to more chakra. Shadow clones split the user's chakra. It still requires chakra to be MOULDED. The more chakra you mould, the more clones you make. One shadow clone requires 50 percent of your stamina. Making more requires you to exponentially divide your chakra down, and it's dangerous if your max reserves are too low. Name one time we have seen Kakashi able to make 1000 clones like naruto can for practical use in battle. The chakra is equally distributed to each clone through chakra control. The fact that naruto has more chakra in comparison to Kakashi means he can more clones without risk, and each clone still has a lot of firepower to boot. The basic clone technique is different and has a different purpose, but even THEN, simply moulding 30 percent created more clones. The user gets to CHOOSE how much chakra to mould for the technique. The issue with naruto is that he can only manipulate 10 percent of his chakra max at a time for many handseal based techniques, so he can't make 3 clones in one sitting. He would have to conduct the technique 3 separate times to make 3 clones, so he wastes both time and stamina compared to Sasuke and Sakura in making the same technique. You failed to account for how chakra control works and the nature of the technique. Genjutsu isn't a clone technique. We have SEEN that putting more chakra into genjutsu makes it more powerful. Itachi can dilate time as much as he wants as stated in Tsykuyomi, but increasing it from 0 to 24 hrs to 72 hrs to 100 years each takes more chakra. His perfect chakra control allows him to manipulate as much chakra as he moulds. The genjutsu itself is so powerful because of his skill and the fact that his MS eye is the required medium. </p><p>Like I said, the instant naruto got kyuubi's chakra, his "100 percent" stamina increased and he was able to create gamabunta despite the fact he is only able to manipulate ten percent of his chakra. Ten percent of base naruto is way less than ten percent of base naruto + kurama, which is why he could summon gamabunta despite having no increase in chakra control skill. </p><p>Your entire argument is on the basis that Itachi, an experienced genjutsu specialist, is an idiot, and naruto is also an idiot. Naruto is smart. He was moulding more chakra as Jiraiya told him, which is why dust kicked up, and with more chakra available he was able to manipulate more of it using chakra control. The more stamina he moulds the more likely it is he can break it via genjutsu:kai. Genjutsu Kai isn't a clone technique, it's an application of the user's strength in attempt to bring their chakra flow to a stop in order to break genjutsu. Your whole thing about "resetting" is unsupported. Jiraiya clearly stated that you have to DISTURB the chakra flow first before you can bring it to a stop. Disturbing requires FORCE. Itachi clearly commended naruto's growth and was geninuely surprised that he could resist the genjutsu, which means he was conducting Genjutsu:Kai correctly. Itachi has less chakra so he is basically using a rock to control naruto's chakra but he controls that rock skillfully. With just a small amount of his chakra he made a powerful genjutsu. Naruto has more charka so he is using a mountain of force insead of a rock, but his weaker control causes him to control and apply the force less effectively. The playing field was completely level yet Itachi still won. </p><p>I remember the Karin scene well. You can normally sense abnormal chakra flow in a victim through chakra sensing. You are right, The yin release chakra is parasite, and Itachi is skilled enough to make said parasite undetectable to sensors as he manipulates his victim's chakra flow. The output of genjutsu like any technique depends on the chakra control and chakra moulded, but clearly the yin release chakra itself varies in quality from genjutsu user to genjutsu user, and that is also dependent the nature transformation step. Chakra control is just not just being able to manipulate all your moulded chakra, it's also the quality with which you manipulate it and transform it into a ninjutsu or genjutsu with the desired effects. This explains why Tsunade can't make genjutsu despite expert chakra control. she is not skilled in the type of Yin release required to make Genjutus, just like Shikmaru who is also a yin release type also can't make genjutsu despite having no chakra control issues. </p><p>You also missed the point about Part one Hashi. His DEEP FOREST EMERGENCE was noticably smaller than the DEEP FOREST EMERGENCE he could cast with 100 percent of his strength available. It's the same technique yet it was made more potent when he had more strength available. The skill component is perfectly making all your moulded chakra turn into life energy to create trees. Adding more chakra available combined with perfect chakra control means he can make a denser and larger forest at the expense of more stamina expended... </p><p>
On your Temple of Nirvana post, I thought it was something I clearly explained though. Itachi can cast genjutsu through his fingers or through his sharingan or MS and can make his techniques undetectable by sensors.... and was portrayed to be able to control entire alliance subdivisions. His skill with sharingan genjutsu is unprecedented, which is why Oro was shocked at how hard it was for him to break out. I don't find Nirvana impressive at all for two reasons at least in comparison to Itachi. 1)Kabuto had access to more or less 100 percent of his strength when he cast it. Doesn't mean the Nirvana he used was at it's strongest, but even so he was SURPRISED that Guy and Kakashi sensed it and broke it so easily. Even Sakura and Shikamaru did the same thing, and Sakura implied that Shikamaru did so because he actually knew how to break genjutsu, yet you have yet to confirm that naruto knew how to break genjutsu back then. Itachi was at thirty percent, so his options were limited. 2) Mindset. What was Itachi's goal? Was he even going all out? Was he trying to capture all of them in ephemeral? His role was to stall Team 7, not incapacitate, he works for Konoha. In my opinion, he casted ephemeral on naruto to test his growth while still painting himself as a villain. He knew that Chiyo and Sakura could release him if need be. I already proved that Itachi basically had 30 percent intellect (heh) in that fight as well. Kakashi's clone feinting is something he is experienced with and has already planned contingencies for in the past. Doesn't make him omniscient of course, but he didn't at all seem as calculating as he normally is in that fight. </p><p>
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@Flatzone thank you for posting those links, even the wiki clearly states what I have been essentially saying this whole time. Also @FaitoMaito, It's okay, I'm just trying to be less irritated myself, it's just a naruto discussion and should bring enjoyment not anger. </p>

<p>Name me ONE ninjutsu or genjutsu in this manga that wasn't amplified by the users having access to more chakra... I'll wait. And make sure to control for chakra control too. If the chakra control is too bad, then it doesn't make a difference. Even in Sage Mode, Jiraiya lacks any meaningful chakra control to create yin release chakra for genjutsu at all, so no amount of chakra he puts in will make up the difference. </p><p>Pain's shinra Tensei increased in magnitude the more chakra he put in. When he moulded more chakra , he went from destroying Kakashi's earth wall and creating a small crater to nuking the ENTIRE hidden leaf village, and he put so much chakra in his life span shortened. </p><p>How is Ebisu's diagram in part one not clear? When Sakura moulded more chakra for clone technique, 3 clones appeared instead of one. When naruto makes kage bunshin, his kage bunshin are stronger than kakashi's and are easier to maintain due to the massive stamina he has. Kakashi's 5 clones are way weaker than naruto's same 5 clones. More chakra put in, the stronger or more complex or numerous the jutsu. </p><p>When Tobirama and Hashirama were revived in part one, not only could they not use any high end techniques, their water style and mokuton techniques were severly weakened. Look at Hashirama's deep forest emergence during his fights with Madara and look at Edo Madara's replication of his jutsu, then look at what he did in part one. Hashirama was so watered down that he couldn't resist the edo tensei at all, yet in part 2 when he was brought back closer to full power, he broke the control effortlessly. His Chakra control didn't change, his reserves did though. </p><p>Tsykuyomi was explicitly stated to be one of the most powerful genjutsu ever and was clearly shown to have a chakra cost that reflected that, and yet somehow Putting more chakra into genjutsu doesn't amplify the potency according to you lot. </p><p>
When kakashi got chakra from Kurama, he could casually warp objects as large as gyuki. </p><p>Naruto went from summoning a tadpole to summoning gamabunta by simply having his chakra reserves increased. His chakra control didn't change at all. His chakra control was trash, but adding more stamina solved the problem. </p><p>I have made ZERO assumptions. I referenced you guys Ebisu's diagrams, and multiple feats... The whole point of the 8 gates is that increased chakra flow/increased access to chakra increases relevant stats for the user. More chakra available> greater genjutsu and ninjutsu feats... </p><p>
Your point about naruto is incorrect. Genjutsu Kai is a battle of strength just as much as it is about chakra control, which is the whole point of ANY ninjutsu or genjutsu. He moulded his chakra and followed Jiraiya's instructions precisely. Partner method is IDENTICAL to Genjutsu Kai, clearly stated in the canon. It's just more practical to use partner method because chakra inserted from a third party doubles your chances. It's not a guarantee you will break out, as Obito clearly controlled the third mizukage for years.... </p><p>
Your claim that it matters more is unsupported. Itachi's Tsykuyomi was partially credited to his skill with genjutsu by Danzo. His MS eye is required during the chakra control step for him to channel the technique in the first place, but his skill is what allowed him to freely manipulate time. IT still required ALOT of chakra for him to make the genjutsu so potent that the miniumum requirment is sharingan + uchiha bloodline. That is the only genjutsu we have seen immediately make him gasping for breath, because every time he wants to make an illusion powerful enough to potentially render an opponent comatose, that's what it took. When he used it for simple things like showing Sasuke the truth of the massacre, it wasn't anywhere near as draining on him. </p><p>Ephemeral gets stronger with 100 percent Itachi, as per, I don't know, literally the MECHANICS of genjutsu and ninjutsu in the first place ???? </p>

<p>@JamesSenpai </p><p>
The point, is, it was SHOWN that the more chakra you put into a genjutsu the MORE Complex and harder to break it is. HE busted out Tsykuyomi against Kakashi, manipulated the perception of time to 72 hours per one real world second, and put him into comatose. That left itachi visibily huffing and sweating.The more complex the genjutsu, the more chakra it requires. We have seen that he can also tone it down to 24 hours and less. He used Tsykuyomi against EMS Sasuke and Kabuto without manipulating time at all. He completely controls how much chakra is put in. Chakra control is much more fixed in comparison to the ability of a ninja to simply summon more chakra. Naruto's chakra control didn't magically improve when he summoned gamabunta. He put an overwhelming amount of chakra into the summoning. </p><p>
</p><p>What you said there ignores an important detail. Ephemeral is not even the canonical name for the genjutsu he casts by using one of his ten fingers. Ephemeral is a name created by the games for the technique based on the usage against naruto. All Itachi said in the canon was that he can cast genjutsu through his fingers. At thirty percent of his original strength, he can only mould a limited amount of chakra. The diagram clearly shows you that the more CHAKRA you put in and manipulate, the stronger the technique, whether it's ninjutsu or genjutsu. </p><p>The chakra cost of the technique is DETERMINED by how much chakra Itachi decides to put in the first place. IT doesn't matter if the specific genjutsu he used against naruto only required 1 percent of his chakra ( that makes it even better), because If he is allowed 100 percent of his strength, he can OBJECTIVELY cast a more powerful genjutsu of his choice through the medium of his choice. </p><p>. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>Ninja Of War wrote: </p><p>@Ultima </p><p>Yeah, Itachi using genjutsu on Naruto back then is not as impressive as many make it out to be. Kabuto's temple of Nirvana is more impressive, yet it doesn't get the same treatment. @Combat </p><p>Genjutsu is all about chakra control. Doesn't matter how much chakra you have, if your chakra is disturbed by genjutsu, you need to "reset" it. That version of Naruto not being able to do it, doesn't make Itachi legendary. </p> </i></div>
<p>@Ninja of War </p><p>Okay, look, I apologize that I lost my cool. </p><p>I'll start from the top and I have quoted your origninal statement, and why I believe it's flawed. </p><p>You said that Temple of Nirvana is more impressive. I disagree. He caught fodders (a large amount, but I already proved Itachi easily replicates that feat because in the Viz translation of Chapter 540, Shikaku and Ao INSTINCTIVELY thought Itachi was controlling a large part of the alliance just based on their experiences). Kabuto's Nirvana genjutsu is literal trash compared to Itachi, whose genjutsu CANNOT BE DETECTED BY SENSORS!!!. Karin isn't sensing his genjutsu. Tobirama isn't. Minato isn't. Name any sensor you know. None of them are outdoing Ao+ the entire sensor division. When Itachi uses genjutsu, sharingan users struggle. The second Hebi Sasuke entered the uchiha hideout and made eye contact, he was already in genjutsu. And guess what. Itachi had to TELL HIM AND RELEASE the genjutsu FOR HIM. There is a reason why Obito clearly stated Sasuke didn't see through a single one of Itachi's illusions, and that includes Tsykuyomi. There is no reason to believe that 100 percent ephemeral wouldn't replicate and outdo Temple of Nirvana </p><p>Killer Bee, a Perfect Jin, had to be TOLD by Itachi that he was in genjutsu. Itachi made it obvious when he intentionally made the illusionary itachi turn into crows. That was a very subtle genjutsu. All he did was manipulate Bee's sense of sight and touch very so slightly to confuse him about where the real ITachi actually was after landing on the ground and tricked him into grabbing a faux Itachi. Killer Bee released his tentacle for real, as we see it even after Gyuki breaks him out and there is a HOLE in the ground. Yet Gyuki was only able to release Bee after Itachi told them BOTH that Bee was in genjutsu, and they still barely made it in time to block shurikens. If Itachi had killer intent, he wouldn't have even gave Bee the obvious hints. Bee was a sitting duck and literally lost to Itachi on the first move. Gyuki is literally experienced with genjutsu yet he could not detect that his host was under genjutsu lmao... </p><p>Itachi vs Deidara and Oro also speak for themselves. Kabuto's genjutsu isn't impressive at all compared to Itachi, and that is on all accounts, until Kabuto gains SM. </p><p>Kabuto's Nirvana was immediately sensed by all the competent shinobi involved. Part one naruto wasn't at all competent as he wasn't able to attempt genjutsu Kai in the first place. What proof is there that he even knew how to break genjutsu back then? Based on the information I know of, He only was taught how to break genjutsu during the timeskip. </p><p>Shikamaru casually broke out. Sakura broke out. Guy broke out. Kakashi broke out without his sharingan active. He caught part one naruto who is <<<<<< Early shippuden naruto in both experience and chakra control. </p><p>Your second statement is unsupported by the manga. Genjutsu dissipation requires a a hand seal to be used, and all hand seals are used to manipulate chakra AFTER it is moulded. It's ninjutsu, not taijutsu, so No getting around it. Jiraiya clearly stated that Naruto must BREAK Itachi's control and disturb his chakra flow in order to bring it to a stop. We clearly see that partner method is based on the same principle. In part one, Sakura had to weave signs, mould chakra for genjutsu kai, manipulate it, then INSERT it into naruto to break him out of Nirvana by touching him. Same thing with Chiyo and Sakura in part two. Same principle with kabuto's sound genjutsu. Itachi and Sasuke used genjutsu:sharingan to insert a powerful surge of chakra into each other in order to forcibly release Kabuto's control over their chakra networks by establishing control with their own genjutsu, and brought their respective chakra flows to a stop. The more chakra you put into genjutsu Kai, and the better your chakra control, the better the chance you can release someone from genjutsu. We have seen that even perfect jinchuriki like Yagura couldn't break out because apparently their genjutsu kai wasn't good enough despite bijuu partner method. </p><p>Casting genjutsu itself is no different. Genjutsu is STATED to be a TYPE of NINJUTSU by Jiraiya himself. And Ebisu's diagram in Part One has nothing to indicate that the mechanics of casting ninjutsu and genjtusu are different. Genjutsu requires incredible chakra control to be used yes, because mastering yin release is incredibly difficult but you need the raw materials to be able to use genjutsu in the first place. Tsunade is a medic with expert chakra control yet she can't use genjutsu. Jiraiya can't use genjutsu either despite his incredible chakra control. By your logic no one can break Itachi's genjutsu at all unless they themselves have the chakra control to be a genjutsu type because he clearly has superior chakra control to the people who can't make genjutsu by virtue of being able to make a genjutsu in the first place. That obviously isn't how it works. </p><p>Breaking genjutsu is a battle of your chakra control for genjutsu Kai+ amount of chakra moulded for it vs the Yin release chakra control of Itachi plus the amount of chakra he moulded for the genjutsu. It's a lot more complex than you seem to be saying it is. Naruto already showed that his massive stamina allowed him to summon gamabunta despite the fact that his chakra control was trash for complicated hand seal pattterns (with his base reserves he at best summoned a premature small frog). He literally needed kyuubi levels chakra to make up for his weak chakra control. Same idea applies here. His chakra control may not be the best, but genjutsu kai is only one handseal and he can mould plenty of chakra for it, he has uzumaki reserves. Itachi being at thirty percent means he didn't put much chakra into that version of ephemeral, but he compensated for it with his own insane chakra control in yin release. That's why it's objectively a feat, both characters had their weaknesses/handicaps yet Itachi still won the battle easily, and thus it adds to why he is legendary. Put him at 100 percent, and 90 percent of the verse isn't breaking out of ephemeral. </p><p>In order to make a half decent genjutsu, Jiraiya probably would need to mould all of his chakra reserves to make up the difference for his Yin release chakra control issue , so it isn't practical. Naruto himself mastered Henge jutsu despite general problems with chakra control. It only requires one handsign and Ebisu SHOWED us that he can perfectly manipulate the 20 percent of his chakra required for it. There are also genetic variables involved. Kakashi's chakra control is just fine and he has earth and water natures, but he isn't making mokuton anytime soon because he doesn't have the genes necessary to combine them and create the wood nature transformation. </p><p>Furthermore, I feel people generally don't appreciate just how intelligent ITachi is. In his debut, he literally planned FOUR moves ahead and near instantly grasped the situation in front of him. He weaved all his techniques and then just stood there and adjusted accordingly. If he wanted to he could have thrown the shuriken and then weave more signs while Kakashi was backing away (he is that much faster than kakashi in jutsu execution), but he chose not to. Each action he took when weaving signs in his robe had a meaning to it and was designed to optimize the success of his win condition. Shuriken as a ruse, to cover the tracks of his water style to push Kakashi on the backfoot. Itachi and Kakashi both know of each other because they spent time together in Anbu. Itachi knows about Kakashi's clone feinting. Even Choji's dad knew that Kakashi's MO is : break line of sight, clone feint, then attack from below or behind. Do you think it was a coincidence that Itachi showed no surprise at all when he stabbed Kakashi and it turned out to be a water clone? It's not. He knew what Kakashi's gameplan was and that's why he planned his clone feint in advance (clone feinting counters clone feinting), but he wasn't sure where the real kakashi would attack him from. But it didn't matter, he used his superior clone feinting skill to dispatch the faux Kakashi easily while leaving an exploding clone behind as bait for the real kakashi to attack while he was already a safe distance away. You can clearly see that Kakashi's plan was to attack Itachi's feet. You can see it on panel. Itachi could have detonated his clone right then and there, and it would have killed Kakashi and Kurenai right then and there. But he purposely waited and delayed it, because his goal wasn't to kill them, giving Kakashi the chance to correct things. </p><p>He showed that he could completely control the fight, paint himself as a villain, and even lead them to a win condition, all while jobbing at the same time. the only reason Itachi later ordered Kisame to kill them is because Kakashi released intel that was dangerous to Akatsuki at the time, and Itachi couldn't just ignore that in front of Kisame. He wasted his stamina with tsykuyomi on purpose and purposely chose not to kill Kakashi, but he still needed to incapacitate so as to not blow his cover. With his dwindling reserves, he was easily able to convince Kisame that they couldn't rush to capture naruto from Jiraiya and that they could come back later, and even with that, Kisame remained unconvinced, asking why a retreat was necessary. And in the official translation, Itachi hyped up Jiraiya to be able to defeat the entire Akatsuki, when in reality both him and Kisame could solo one v one. Itachi accomplished his mission that day. Warned konoha that akatsuki was making it's move, reminded Sasuke to get stronger, and purposely failed Nagato's orders to capture to the kyuubi, while having a pact with Obito that prevented Pain from going to konoha himself. IF Itachi brought Pain with him to Konoha, what would have happened???? lmao. </p><p>Itachi made excuses for why they couldn't capture the nine tails ahead of time and just keep him captured until he was ready to be sealed, and he had Obito focus on the other bijuu in the meantime until the clock ran out. Understanding the backstory of Itachi's actions allows us to better understand just how good he is, and why we haven't seen his full potential in battle yet, which is why there is a disconnect in this thread. </p><p>Even Kakashi stated that what Itachi showed there was nothing LMAO, and that was without knowledge on ANY of his MS techniques (Kakashi clearly only knew about MS genjutsu in general, if he actually knew about Tsykuyomi then he would have already known that looking in Itachi's eyes is a big no- no). He was basing it on what Itachi showed during their time as Anbu. So basically, a jobbing Itachi can perfectly plan 4 moves in advance? Yikes. It was even stated during the Sasuke fight that he calculated for all of Sasuke's contingencies all in a fight where he was holding back and dying of a terminal illness. </p><p>Yet, in this thread we have people citing drawbacks from 30 percent Itachi. Itachi was nerfed in that fight in so many ways. No mega handseal speed. No calculated uses of ninjutsu/shuriken feints. No clone feints. Even Kakashi said SOMETHING WASN'T RIGHT. </p><p>In all his other fights, Itachi showed the ability to make and execute strategies to end the fight from the beginning. Kimimaro is nowhere near that level. Orochimaru is experienced but he isn't a genius in battle, his genius is in scientific research. Konan is probably the best intellectual combat tactician in the group, but no offense she doesn't even touch Itachi in intellect. She opted for a sucicide attack against Tobi when a paper clone could have been used instead. Also put all her eggs in one basket with the 600 billion paper bombs. And her arsenal is essentially useless against Itachi's katon variants. IF Obito wasn't being stupid he would have used his katon to get rid of her papers like Jiraiya did instead of underestimating her. </p><p>@JamesSenpai </p><p>MEGA FACE PAlM -_-. CHAPTER 90. Ebisu CLEARLY tells you that genjutsu and ninjutsu are increased by the AMOUNT of chakra put in. It's clearly shown in the diagram. The more chakra moulded, and the more chakra succesfully MANIPULATED by handsigns, the BIGGER THE EXPENDITURE. No offense, but I'm getting really sick and tired of explaining this. Itachi also clearly explained that his 30 percent clone is limited in STRENGTH AND in the jutsu he could use in Chapter 260 pg 16. He couldn't even use any MS techniques at all, not enough chakra available to even make the minimum benchmark for creating them in the first place. Furthermore, it's clearly stated that naruto can keep up with sasuke and sakura because his insane STAMINA allows him to make potent techniques. He sucked at the basic clone jutsu, yet he can spam more shadow clones then kakashi as a kid. His chakra control issue was mostly in handsigns, as he even quickly picked up on the water walking exercise. Kage bunshin is a harder clone technique than basic clones but he has an easier time doing it because it only requires one handseal. Naruto in base has more chakra than Jiraiya yet because of his poor control with handsigns he couldn't summon a big frog. Adding in kyuubi chakra compensated for his chakra control well enough to the point he could summon gamabunta. Yet that same Jiraiya who has way less chakra than naruto+kyuubi can summon gamabunta with ease. Chakra control AND chakra reserves BOTH factor into genjutsu/ninjutsu, end of story. Itachi is at thirty percent and thus ephemeral is weaker because he can't mould more chakra for it. Even with that handicap, he was shown to be simultaneously fighting Kakashi while keeping Naruto in ephemeral, and Chiyo and Sakura HAD to step in to break naruto free. </p><p>But I commend you on a well thought analysis of how Itachi matches up with these three opponents and your comments on his stamina. The reason he matched Sasuke in stamina is because he used his techniques more intelligently and paced himself. Sasuke literally burnt himself out and didn't get anything done, and basically relied on Kirin to bail him out. </p><p>Itachi knows all about partner method, and some users seem to think that he doesn't have ways around it. He does. His shuriken techniques were calculated to be unavoidable by Kabuto because of his skillful use of blindspots. </p><p>His clone feints are also unavoidable for these 3 oppponets. Itachi created and substituted with a clone during a shuriken clash and then reappeared, jumped, and safely threw 3 kunai at sasuke from a safe distance away, and Sasuke didn't notice this at all until it was already happening. Sasuke was grappling a CLONE. People just don't understand... If that was an exploding clone Sasuke was a dead man right then and there. Itachi's ability to spawn clones where he wants is a deadly tool in his arsenal, and he already shows the ability to combo his clone feints with other attacks, increasing the chance that his blindside attack will lead to the successful application of Totsuka or Amaterasu. </p><p>Tell me how EMS Sasuke and Kabuto are watching the REAL Itachi deactivating susano'o and running toward Kabuto, yet they don't notice him:making a crow clone. moving to a hiding spot.crow clone explodes, Itachi gets a free attack from behind. EMS Sasuke can track JUUBITO to an extent, but he can't see Itachi's clone formations. </p><p>No one in the manga has seen this guy's clone formations. No one supporting Team Orochimaru has explained how they deal with it. </p>

<p>@Ninja of War </p><p>No, it's because you are now ignoring BASICS of genjutsu and ninjutsu and you are the one ignoring arguments which is why I got annoyed. I clearly stated from the beginning, Itachi's THIRTY PERCENT usage of Ephemeral entrapping naruto is a feat because at 100 percent he makes his genjutsu more viable/potent. You are FACTUALLY wrong. You cited Kabuto entrapping a part one naruto when we all now he IMPROVED by early part 2, and Itachi with just 30 percent available still easily kept him in ephemeral. </p><p>No, just because he has low stamina ( visibly Tired after a few short battles in Konoha) doesn't mean his stamina is as low as you are claiming. He used three crow clones, multiple amaterasu, tsykuyomi, a few genjutsu, a couple of large katons, and then susano'o before dying. </p><p>
</p><p>
Genjutus KAi? All NINJUTSU and GENJUTSU require you to FIRST mould chakra then manipulate. Even Jiraiya says that genjutsu itself is a type of ninjutsu. Even rasengan works on the same principle. Genjutsu :release requires you to mould chakra and then manipulate said chakra to forcibly bring your body's chakra flow to a stop against the will of the enemy. It's a simple technique. Mould chakra, then control it to stop the malicious flow of chakra in your body. Moulding more chakra increases the power of the genjutsu release. even if part 2 naruto can only properly manipulate 30 percent of his chakra, that's still ALOT with uzumaki reserves. Itachi has less chakra to work with because he is only at 30 percent. Reread Chapters 90-92, you clearly need to refresh yourself. </p><p>Ebisu clearly stated that even with naruto's poor chakra control, he quickly made progress with water walking. Then in Chapter 92, Jiraiya clearly stated that naruto's MASSIVE stamina allows him to get away with his poor chakra control. He is wasteful and not able to manipulate all his chakra properly, but because he can mould so much (especially when you add in NINE TAILS) he can still make powerful/effective jutsu without issue. </p><p>Proof? When naruto was able to tap into the nine tails chakra and MOULD MORE CHAKRA for his summoning, he went from summoning a tadpole to summoning GAMABUNTA of all things. His chakra control didn't improve, but moulding more chakra increased the potency of his technique. Naruto always naturally Moulded MORE chakra than he needs in the first place, and yet with his best efforts he STILL couldn't break a genjutsu from a watered down Itachi. </p><p>Do you also seriously think SM hashi can make a construct as large as Shinsuusenju just because of his chakra control? It's also equally because of his insane reserves. </p><p>What you said about Obito is something you made up. First of all, sharingan incredibly boosts the efficiency of genjutsu. Second of all, Obito himself has HASHIRAMA CELLS which were shown to incredibly boost one's reserves. He easily has the chakra amount, chakra control, plus the support of the Sharingan to achieve that feat. Obito was trained by Madara, he obviously has genjutsu prowess. Madara's Genjutsu was enough to Easily one shot Raikage A4. </p><p>Strawman argument. Asuma could compete with Kisame (explicitly listed as an S rank) in close quarters and Kurenai's genjutsu was good enough to be complemented by Itachi even though he easily broke it. They are top jounin. Weaker than Kakashi and Guy, but still strong. </p><p>This goes for you @Faito as well. Your scenario ignores Itachi's speed advantage. Again, in the instant Kakashi took to blink. Itachi did 4 actions: shurikens, water style tendril jutsu, Shadow clone jutsu, SUBSTITUTION jutsu.Itachi's jutsu execution is not the only problem. It's the INTELLIGENCE behind it. He purposely forced kakashi to create distance and then spawned the clone behind him and substituted, leaving an exploding clone right next to kurenai. Itachi is now a safe distance away from his own nuke, and while Kakashi correctly deduced which one was the real Itachi AFTER the fact, he didn't have a choice. He had to quickly move to save Kurenai who was walking right into a trap. IF Itachi wanted to, he could have had the clone chase after the retreating Itachi and kurenai, grab them DBZ Chiaotzu STYLE, and blow them to the moon. </p><p>
</p><p>Susano'o is fast enough to react to lightning. Totsuka blade is fast enough to blitz both Nagato and Oro without a mental reaction, no matter how hard people downplay. Orochimaru couldn't see the blade. He was genuinely surprised and confused when the blade pierced through him. Itachi also doesn't RELY on speed. He takes advantage of diversions. Yakasa beads were enough to stun SM kabuto enough for him to get tagged by Sasuke's arrow, despite the fact Kabuto showed the ability to casually dodge it before. </p><p>Itachi won't be camping in susano'o the way you set it up. Smokescreens allow his clone feinting to happen even EASIER. He doesn't need smokescreens to clone feint in the first place. All the people he clone feinted in the manga were looking right at him. Even Kakashi has to rely on LOS blockers. Itachi is clearly on par with Hashirama in clone feinting, the same dude who clone feinted Madara, a sensor type, in the middle of a kenjutsu clash. Itachi EASILY gets behind Konan and Kimimaro with a crow clone without them noticing, can't downplay feats. Amaterasu incapacitates Kimi easily and he won't be reacting to a blindside attack, because Itachi would time it for when Kimiaro bends down to summon his bracken dance. So now there is zero chance to dodge. Konan's papers are then destroyed by Itachi's katon, the crow clone stuns her by exploding into crows, and then you can pick the finisher of your choice. This fight literally ends before it begins. And he is only used 3 MS techniques and a cheaper crow clone, well within his stamina range. </p><p>Itachi doesn't need susano'o active constantly. Not his style. He isn't Sasuke. He relies on subterfuge and speed and uses his hax to end the fight, he doesn't spam. Like I said. Yakasa beads box Orochimaru in, stun him, and blind him. He isn't reacting to Totsuka in that condition. Konan's papers aren't doing jack to Susano'o in the meantime, then Itachi can simply deactivate it as orochimaru is sealed away. Totsuka, even if we ignore the fact that it lacks a physical form as per the request of the OP, it still pierced through Nagato, someone durable enough to easily tank a V2 lariat from Bee, who easily overpowered V2 Raikage while in BASE. It also pierced through Kimimaro's SM enhanced bones, which are known for it's insane durability. Totsuka would more than likely go straight through Orochimaru's rashomon gates, assuming he even had the time to create one in the first place. </p><p>Itachi literally can summon yakasa beads, fire totsuka, substitute with clone, all in the time it takes for Orochimaru, Konan and Kimimaro to do one major action. That is the difference in speed. They don't have enough experience against someone with unprecedented genjutsu abilites, unprecedented clone feinting speed, unprecedented jutsu execution speed, incredible combat intellect, and with an ultimate offense and defense to boot. Konan and Kimimaro literally can't harm him. And Orochimaru already bit the dust to a Totsuka blade that was fired without any diversionary tactics. </p>

<p>@Ninja of War </p><p>There is no consensus because up to now, people apparently refuse to even go back and refresh themselves on the BASICS of ninjutsu and genjutsu. </p><p>Just stop it already. The potency of ANY ninjutsu or Genjutsu is proportional to CHAKRA CONTROL AND THE AMOUNT OF MOULDED CHAKRA. It's an equation, and both contribute strongly. </p><p>Itachi has one of the lowest reserves in the manga. So when he is at THIRTY PERCENT, the bulk of his jutsu prowess is coming from his chakra control. Naruto may have weaker chakra control, but he has massive amounts of chakra available. Those two things offset each other. If Itachi is allowed more chakra, then his potency increases notably. </p><p>You used PART ONE NARUTO for your example, which doesn't make sense. Naruto at the time couldn't even make rasengan. He was put to sleep before he was even aware he was in genjutsu. He missed the window because he was too inexperienced. Fast forward 3 years later, even Itachi noticed he improved all around. He actually detected he was in genjutsu and took the STEPS to actually attempt to break it, unlike in Part one. He made it to Step 2: trying to actually break it, and he came up WAY short. </p><p>
Genjutsu Kai is a ninjutsu that requires seals, typically the tiger seal. Naruto has more reserves. He can MOULD more chakra for his Kai to compensate for his weaker chakra control. His best efforts came up way short. </p><p>I like how you called my statement head canon when it's directly from Jiraiya himself. </p><p>Itachi at 100 percent of his strength (which he is in this thread) can make a FAR more potent Ephemeral by simply moulding more chakra for the genjutsu. </p><p>Kimimaro isn't breaking out. Neither is Konan. Not even Orochimaru could break out of his 3 tomoe genjutsu. He wasn't even allowed the chance to TRY and break it in the first place because when he tried to weave his seal for Genjutsu Kai, Itachi cut his arm off before he got the chance, and Oro is a SANNIN level. Orochimaru himself was surprised that 3 tomoe genjutsu could pin him down. </p><p>
People are also ignoring Itachi's clone feinting abilities. The guy was in the middle of a shuriken clash with Sasuke. He created a kage bunshin, substituted with it, hid somewhere(probably underground) and the clone was grappling Sasuke. Sasuke didn't even see this happen at all. We know the bunshin was created during the shuriken clash because Itachi can't weave seals while simultaneously grappling Sasuke. The real Itachi jumped up from behind both of them and threw kunai. Sasuke then threw his shuriken at the wrong Itachi and was clearly surprised to see it was a clone and not the real one, proving he didn't see this substitution at all despite watching Itachi the whole time lmao. </p><p>In part one, Itachi did the same thing, Despite 3 S rank ninjas watching him, he created a bunshin, substituted, and got behind Kakashi in the blink of an eye, a feat Kurenai credited as superhuman. </p><p>In the Kabuto fight, again same thing, The real Itachi was seen deactivating Susano'o and running towards kabuto. Yet both EMS Sasuke and Kabuto were surprised to see that Itachi essentially substituted with a crow clone without either of them noticing and got behind Kabuto. </p><p>Based on all three of these feats, Itachi CLEARLY can spawn clones where he wants and substitute with them and NO ONE he has fought in the canon has noticed it, even sharingan users and Sage mode users. His clone feints are essentially undetectable. He can make his clones appear from behind or in front of himself within a certain range. </p><p>His superior hand seal speed and tactics are too much for these guys to handle. </p><p>It's 3 opponents, all he has to do is create 3 1v1s. Pretty simple. </p><p>Bijuu Dama sized Yakasa beads create the smokescreen like I said. Itachi prepares Totsuka and also does his clone feint trick and makes the clone appear behind all of them. Totsuka takes out Orochimaru, smoke screen clears and crow clone snipes Kimimaro from behind with amaterasu. Then Konan gets put in ephemeral where she is put to sleep, forcing her to release her paper form. Totsuka is not even needed for her. </p>

<p>@Ninja of War </p><p>Again, that's blatant head canon. It doesn't matter how much you guys try to downplay, the manga made it clear. Shisui and Itachi are in fact legendary when it comes to genjutsu and they have the feats and character statements to support it. You guys wanna ignore feats and hype, go right ahead. I'll simply try this again. </p><p>Part 1 ninjutsu/genjutsu basics. Put more chakra into your genjutsu/ninjutsu, the more potent it will be. Itachi has 30 percent of his shit stamina available. That means at best, he put in what, 10 percent of his 30 percent? He showed no exhaustion after the genjutsu so he didn't put an incredible amount into it. That means he used an extremely small amount of chakra and his chakra control was good enough to make it unbreakable despite Naruto's best efforts. Genjutsu isn't just a battle of chakra control and you know it. It's also a battle of strength. Even if naruto can only properly manipulate 30 percent of his massive reserves, that's still MAGNITUDES more chakra than Itachi has available even at 100 percent, and he still easily pinned him down. The more chakra Itachi has to control, the more resistance there is because he has to unnaturally resist the natural flow of chakra in the victim's body in order to induce and maintain the illusions. Naruto's uzuamki level of reserves makes that an issue. We already saw that Byakugan users can glimpse the power of an opponent by simply looking at how much chakra is flowing through their chakra network, as we saw as per canon when we saw Neji observe the massive chakra of 30 percent Kisame. Itachi has to control all of naruto's chakra who was directly compared to that same Kisame. That's still a massive amount of chakra to control. Every ninjutsu/genjutsu is a product of the chakra control and the AMOUNT of chakra used to make it. Genjutsu:Kai, which involves forcibly stopping the flow of chakra in your body, is no different even without looking at it from a logical perspective. Look at the mechanics of any technique. You have to knead your chakra and control it just like with any other technique, and with naruto's massive reserves he should have been easily able to compensate his chakra control issues with his massive reserves (simply mould up more chakra) if (THIRTY PERCENT) Itachi is some average genjutsu user like you seem to be implying. How do I know for sure genjutsu Kai: is just like any technique? Because we clearly see the characters have to weave signs for it. Naruto weaved a sign in ephemeral. Sakura, Guy, and Kakashi are all weaving the tiger seal. So yeah, no. Naruto tried his best, he put in as much chakra into it as possible, and even with the full force of his uzumaki reserves, it wasn't enough. And improvement in chakra control cannot possibly close the gap between him and a WEAK Itachi, let alone a 100 percent Itachi. </p><p>Wanna give Naruto his war arc chakra control feats? Fine, then give Itachi 100 percent of his chakra available and he simply puts in MORE CHAKRA this time to increase the potency of the genjutsu, and the result remains the same (ignoring Kurama partner method). </p><p>
Kabuto's temple of Nirvana isn't anywhere close to Itachi's feats and hype lol. Seriously? Let's not act like Itachi couldn't genjutsu all those fodders. As for the named characters, Even Guy isn't breaking out unless he manages to induce a huge surge of chakra flow with the eight inner gates at the right time. Kakashi is the only person in that stadium who be able to resist genjutsu at Itachi's level with a high probability and that is purely by virtue of his own sharingan hax, which in of itself gives a massive resistance to genjutsu. Itachi is able to control MANY targets with genjutsu and his mind control and by his extension his chakra control over his victims cannot be detected by some of the best sensors in the manga working in UNISON, according to the official Naruto manga Viz Translation of Chapter 540. Ao ( who we know knows all about Shisui) and Shikaku didn't even attribute such a feat to Shisui, the only other character hyped to be above Itachi in overall genjutsu potency. So much for people claiming characters like Base Minato can instantly detect Itachi's genjutsu due to being a "sensor". Sorry, Unless like you are at the level ofHashirama Senju in Sage Mode, I don't see anyone using sensing as a viable method of detecting genjutsu at Itachi level, as that is saying they can outdo an an entire SENSORY unit. You gotta rely on your intuition and figure it out that way, and by then , it's too late, as Exploding clone, Totsuka, Amaterasu, all finish the match. Good luck to people at Konan and Kimimaro's level facing the second best genjutsu user of all time. </p><p>Lol, looking at this whole thread, It's like I don't know what to do with you guys. It's amazing how in this thread we have people claiming Itachi's genjutsu isn't legendary, downplaying the speed feats of Totsuka, claiming Itachi isn't obito's level when the dude was surprised by Itachi's planning (while not knowing about the Koto plan) and admitted that had Itachi been equipped with full knowledge OBito would be dead. Mind you, amaterasu nearly one shot obito, even if he used Kamui like the databook implies, it took him wallowing in pain and falling to the GROUND in more pain before he finally countered it. In an actual battle he would have been dead to Totsuka during his screaming. Mind you, claiming If Itachi could kill Obito in his life he would have is pure ignorance, as we saw regardless of Yata and Totsuka, he HAD KOTO. What would have happened if Itachi simply put the crow inside sasuke instead of naruto? He already showed the ability to program his attacks to respond to obito's sharingan. Obito approaches sasuke as per canon, and then kotoamatsukami one shots. I dare anyone to argue that Obito can resist the ultimate genjutsu in existence bar Infinite Tsykuyomi. It's obvious that Itachi didn't have the intel on Kamui, it's obvious that The Akatsuki is something he entrusted naruto to defeat with the help of his allies, and he also clearly wanted to reserve the use of koto for his brother, just like it was stated in the canon, for the same reason he let him survive the uchiha massacre and wanted to die by his hand in the first place. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>UltimaDude wrote: </p> <div class="quote"> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: While it's true naruto didn't have the best chakra control at that point in the manga, he still has UZUMAKI levels of chakra flowing through his brain. Even after he tried to forcibly break it, Itachi still completely controlled all of his chakra. </p> </i></div>
<p>Itachi getting Naruto in a genjutsu is not as impressive as you're trying to make it out to be. People aren't suddenly immune to genjutsu by virtue of having a large chakra pool. You even said so yourself thay Naruto's chakra control sucked which is exactly the reason why he had difficulty breaking Itachi's genjutsu </p> </div> <p>This is the downplay I'm talking about. Literally go back to Part 1 and PLEASE reread the parts where they said ninjutsu/genjutsu are INCREASED in potency the more chakra you put in. Itachi has SHIT reserves, and he was on 30 percent of his chakra. Genjutsu, according to Jiraiya requires to forcibly control all the chakra in the target's cranial nerves. When naruto attempted genjutsu Kai, Naruto was trying to forcibly stop ALL the chakra flow in his body, and Itachi CASUALLY said no! Itachi literally controlled all his chakra, with just 30 percent strength. Sorry, but there is a MASSIVE difference in chakra between the two characters. Naruto's weaker chakra control does not suddenly make up for the massive disadvantage Itachi has. It's a testament to Itachi's chakra control. Put Itachi at 100 percent, and hell, make him healthy, and no one is breaking his genjutsu unless they are Hashirama level or have sharingan hax or partner method. He is the second strongest genjutsu user of all time for a reason. And don't act like Naruto's chakra control at the time is awful. It's not anything particularly great, but he still was able to make rasengans, the pinnacle of shape control, even if it required him to make a clone. </p>

<p>@FaitoMaito </p><p>Itachi has never had killing intent in the manga against most of his opponents, and the few times we did see him have intent he used susano'o and Totsuka rather immediately. This is a versus battle uninfluenced by plot and his opponents are immortal so..., not reason to believe he wouldn't use Totsuka rather immediately. I do appreciate that you are at trying to look at the fight reasonably and considering the feats and abilities of both characters. </p><p>However, Itachi's genjutsu and speed are too much for them to handle. With just 30 percent of his chakra available, Itachi was able to completely pin down naruto. While it's true naruto didn't have the best chakra control at that point in the manga, he still has UZUMAKI levels of chakra flowing through his brain. Even after he tried to forcibly break it, Itachi still completely controlled all of his chakra. 100 percent Itachi would be able to make his genjutsu more potent by adding more chakra to it. Secondly, you still have to be AWARE of the genjutsu to break it. Killer Bee was caught in a very subtle genjutsu against Itachi. HE released his tentacle underground for real because we see it even after Gyuki broke him out. Itachi could have killed him at any time, because Gyuki wasn't even aware of the genjutsu while Killer Bee took several physical actions in the real world. Itachi's genjutsu does not require eye contact, and he still continues to attack you while you are trapped in genjutsu. Kimimaro and Konan are screwed. </p><p>I looked over your scenario but I don't have time at the moment to critically analyze it, but I will do so later. </p>

<p>Actually, we were always on topic. The whole idea the chidori boosts speed( at least why I originally thought it did) was predicated on the fact that kakashi experienced tunnel vision while running with the jutsu. The fact that there is tunnel vision would imply that kakashi is running at a speed such that his optic-nervous system cannot properly process the visual stimuli in his peripheral vision, which is why he could not see the sword that was about to chop his arm off. The visual information is literally not being processed in time, which is the whole reason why raiton armor (neurotransmission speed increases) and the sharigan( precognition/visual acuity boost) offers a solution to those running at extreme speeds. Since I also used to think that ninja always run at their top speed in battle, it was a no brainer that the tunnel vision must have been caused by a speed increase offered by chidori. The whole reason the obito vs minato was brought up was because I was proving that Minato WAS NOT using his top running speed in that battle, for the same reason he told kakashi to not use a technique that requires him to run so fast. When Minato uses his top speed, obito knows it and so do the readers. Context is important. </p><p>But then, that right there is the problem. The ninja verifiably aren't always using their top speed in battle. Sasuke had to train to rock lee levels of speed as stated in preparation for his usage of chidori. Rock lee understood that running in a straight line with maximum acceleration the way sasuke would induce tunnel vision. The use of one's top speed in battle is situational, because using their top speed comes with risks: Tunnel vision, being unable to change direction as fast as you normally would, leaving yourself open counter-attacks, and also, as shown with KCM naruto, he initially could not even control his shunshin speed because his foot got stuck in the ground and yamato had to help him. Gaara himself has access to his sand body flicker which we have seen him use before, yet he often stands in one spot while he is fighting and relies purely on his defense. A casual relook at the entire manga with an open mind shows that the characters aren't going at their absolute fastest 24/7, even in high stakes battles. </p><p>Hell, the only reason sasuke and lee are using small bursts of high speed constantly is because of the nature of gaara's defense and fighting style. Gaara is a stationary opponent and the sand shield blocks their attacks, so in order to outmanuever the sand guard they need to run circles until they find an opening. We never see rock lee fighting anyone else like that. Rewatch his fight with kimimaro for example. He only used his top weightless speed once to get behind kimimaro, and even then kimimaro reacted to it with his bone technique. In other instances, the body flicker technique is only used to retreat from battle or chase after fleeing opponents, or when the character needs to use his top speed to avoid an extremely fast attack or protect comrades from an attack that is about to kill them. Only rarely do we see characters using the body flicker technique offensively in battle, and when they do it, it's normally to close the distance and catch the opponent off guard, and then the fight switches to combat speed anyways... </p><p>
So with that out of the way, it makes perfect, and logical sense, that chidori does not boost the speed of the user it simply requires the user to be moving at high speeds if they want to use it optimally as it is a piercing move, as moving at your highest speeds induces tunnel vision without the appropriate reflex boosts. And yes, kakashi uses lightning blade because of his personality. Even in the situation against deva pain when pain stabbed him with the rod, kakashi should have used rasengan there because it doesn't require hand seals, and he is literally in close quarters combat with Pain. Don't forget, kakashi made the raikiri because he failed to make a rasenraikiri by adding his chakra nature to rasengan, and the raikiri is literally the only technique he created himself. Everything else he copied. I think it's a pride thing. </p>

<p>@Ninja Of War The proof of the stun is the "ugh" which kabuto registers not only in chapter 580 but also in Chapter 586. The crows very clearly have a momentary stunning effect, which allowed Itachi to successfully strike kabuto despite the latter almost successfully dodging both times... Kabuto thinks he countered itachi because of his healing and because itachi only managed to cut off a horn, but he doesn't know that the cutting of the horn is what itachi is going for. The crows are not only unexpected , because both hebi sasuke and kabuto registered a "?!" when they appeared, but in kabuto's case itachi added a stunning effect which even caused kabuto to drop the sword both times, which is what allowed Itachi to catch the sword in the first place both times... After that, everything else occurred in izanami, but still. </p><p>The point is, the stunning effect created by the crows was powerful enough to physically disorient kabuto, the same kabuto who has the exact same enhancements orochimaru does. In fact, kabuto absorbed a huge part of orochimaru himself as shown in the canon, so I can in fact credibly argue that the feat is directly applicable. to this versus debate. Clearly, sage mode and hashirama cells aren't a sufficient protection against the the crows. </p><p>As for orochimaru being deceived, he will in fact be decieved because itachi itachi is smarter and more calculated than orochimaru is in battle based on feats , and more importantly, faster. Itachi still has the best hand seal speed feats in the manga. He clearly trained his handseal speed to the point that a 3 tomoe sharingan could not viably track it, much like rock lee physically trained his speed despite having little to no chakra control skills to be one of the fastest characters among his peers... In the time it took for Itachi to sheath his shurikens against kakashi, itachi already:casted the hand signs for a water style technique, a shadow clone, and a substitution technique such that kakashi and kurenai didn't notice it until after the fact. </p><p>Now, many ninja have shown the ability to substitute with clones out of nowhere. Yamato did it to orochimaru. Sai did it to orochimaru. Madara did it to the 5 kages. Hashirama did to madara at the valley of the end. Kakashi himself did it to itachi and several other shinobi, but the reason I find Itachi's so special is because he doesn't rely on line of sight blockers to do it. He does it in plain sight. Itachi is clearly on par with hashirama in his clone feinting skill, because he clone feinted sage mode kabuto twice without the latter noticing, and by extension, he also clone feinted EMS sasuke. sasuke has the pinnacle of sharingan doujutsu yet he did not notice itachi substituting with a clone right in front of his own eyes. If kakashi could do clone feints the way itachi did, we would have seen him do it many times, instead kakashi always relies on sneaking underground first or sneaking underwater or using smokescreens/line of sight blockers. Meanwhile, Itachi near instantly got behind kakashi without using any vision obstructions. Meanwhile, itachi ran towards kabuto, kabuto stabbed him, and it turned out to be a clone out of nowhere. </p><p>
Given those feats, why is orochimaru so special that he can track itachi's clone formations when comparable shinobi (EMS sasuke, Sage mode Kabuto) couldn't? We have to look at how the battle would play out. Orochimaru as per canon starts out his edo tensei fights by first weaving the seals to summon edo tensei coffins. Itachi steals initiative using his super handseal speed, he can prep his shadow clone/crow clone and substitution just like he has done canonically on more than one occasion. We have seen canonically, itachi would use a high level ninjutsu also during this time. He is facing edo tensei. So here is how it goes, susano'o forms in literal fractions of a second. He would most certainly use his yakasa matagama just like he did to kabuto first. (Think of that as the water style jutsu he used against kakashi). Then the clone feint happens, except this time he does 2 crow clones instead of one because he is facing multiple enemies here. (Think of that as the shadow clone feint/crow clone feint he used on both kakashi and kabuto). Lastly, Itachi goes for a finishing blow. In this case, he won't be using sasuke's sword nor tsykuyomi in my opinion, instead he uses the totsuka blade because that is the only thing that will finish orochimaru and his edo tensei.... </p><p>Now on Totsuka blade, unfortunately, I'm gonna have to keep pressuring you with this. While it's true that Nagato, in theory, couldn't use the preta path or shinra tensei... Again, he is still a rinnegan user. He still has substitution, an E rank technique, to leave a log in his place while safely avoids the technique. He still has summoning animals available (like the salamander, the panda bear, the lobster, etc), he still has asura path. All he has to do is ATTEMPT anything that could deflect the blade. The fact that he couldn't take any physical or even mental action proves the blade's speed was too fast for his nervous system to handle. IF you are telling me that there was nothing in Nagato's vast arsenal that Kabuto could have used to deflect that giant blade then all that proves is how rediculously overpowered that blade is. And in that instance, Itachi didn't even use his signature clone feint, he didn't use any kind of genjutsu... all things he would be doing in this hypothetical battle to increases the already high chances of the totsuka blade hitting these 3 opponents. </p><p>
Team orochimaru's action during the hurling of the yakasa matagama has to be pinpoint, otherwise they will lose control of the fight. During that time, all Konan's arsenal allows her to do is fires her paper bombs, which just get walled by susano'o, and guess what, those create more smokescreens which makes it even harder to see the blade coming. The only thing kimimaro can viably do is his bracken dance, which Itachi already knows about as per canon, and I have already proven how he can counter that technique. What will orochimaru do exactly? He has a wide arsenal of techniques, but he has to choose the optimal one or else he is good as dead, because regardless of what he does, he has no way of stopping itachi's bijuu dama size yakasa beads(itachi's strongest long range attack in terms of destructive power) from exploding. the purpose of the yakasa beads is to create a smokescreen/box his opponents in/ disorient them, which is what allowed sasuke's susano'o arrow to tag kabuto.... Once they explode, it's game over because the totsuka blade is coming next, as per canon. So what will orochimaru do to stop it? How does he deal with the fact that itachi's crow clones will already be primed to momentarily stun his teammates? </p><p>Furthermore, it took chiyo and sakura a while to even notice that naruto was trapped in genjutsu, so partner method isn't some instantenous counter to genjutsu. So you know what? What's stopping itachi from throwing his beads, pointing at kimimaro using his faster handseal speed and is comparable to how he was able to sheath shurikens against kakashi after weaving his other techniques in his robe, and substituting with his clone(s)?. The clones have been shown to use jutsu. Itachi's crow clone was seen using genjutsu on naruto during the sasuke vs itachi arc. So Itachi's crow clone can cast katon to dissipate any paper attacks from konan. Kimimaro is stopped in his tracks temporarily due to being caught in finger genjutsu. By the time konan dispatches the crow clone and knows to release kimimaro through partner method, the beads would have already gone off, and totsuka blade seals orochimaru. then the fight proceeds as I have stated. </p>

<p>like I said, PLOT. In chapter 276 pg 17 Deidara himself says he can't cast any techniques because he lost his arms. Yet he is able to do substitution+ clay clone, exploding clone, and hiding like a mole. Blatant plot armor/inconsistency. The hand seals are only focused on when the plot needs it. </p><p>Minato very clearly expressed concern about chakra when he was warping the nine tails away, so why would splitting his chakra in half beforehand be a good idea? </p><p>Lol,If naruto tried to hit him with the bijuu dama from behind, all Obito has to do is predict it and phase through it, and guess what, Might guy dies to friendly fire lmao. Obito did that same feat against Fuu and Torune. So if Obito was as fast as you claimed he would have ran a circle around guy, pretend to try to warp him away, baiting naruto into attacking him, then bijuu dama phases through and hits might guy. Poor might guy dies, now obito can move back to attacking naruto, while naruto is in emotional discord from accidentally killing bushy brow sensei... Obito isn't as fast as you are claiming. KCM Naruto and Ayy were the fastest shinobi alive in terms of running speed before Minato , Tobirama, and six paths characters came into play. </p><p>And lol no, Naruto's goal wasn't to retreat from the battle. He was trying to keep a safe distance in that instance with the rocks because one touch=death. Obito only tagged him by cunningly phasing the gunbai through a rock, which caused naruto to only see the gunbai at the last second, allowing obito to restrain him once he blocked it. That was a feat of cunning and combat speed, not running speed lol. Naruto wasn't using his top running speed there. </p><p>I keep telling you the characters very obviously don't always use their top speed in the midst of battle. Killer Bee, while electrocuted, moved so fast that Jugo didn't even notice that he moved. Killer Bee used his top speed in base to escape, and Taka was forced to use Karin's sensing abilities to find him. Killer bee is objectively faster than sasuke and everyone on his crew. In a sword fight, you use your running speed to control the distance, and then the fight is about combat speed/skill. He is facing someone with the sharingan, and yet still outmanuevered and tagged sasuke multiple times, but that has nothing to do with running speed. </p><p>
Lol, like I said, we gotta talk about physics smh... It isn't Kishimoto's job to spoonfeed us details that should be common knowledge. A Piercing move benefits from added momentum even more so than other attacks because force is required to ensure the penetration is clean. Chidori =/= rasengan which is a dense rotating sphere of energy waiting to grind and then explode into it's target on it's own, chidori is simply a more powerful knife. Look back to the water tower scene betwen naruto and sasuke in part one. Then look back to when kakashi was a kid. His goal was to kill multiple opponents at once in an "instant". running at your top speed ensures the chidori gets the most momentum and force to aid it's raiton properties in piercing through and instantly kill the target, with the additional point that hopefully your opponent won't be able to react to a loud (sound of 1000 birds) and easy to see beeline attack. It's an assasination technique. Some characters in naruto have an ultimate defense (like gaara) or wear body armor, which would be harder to penetrate using a knife like stabbing attack. Even with his absolute top rock lee speed, Sasuke could only manage a cut on Gaara's shoulder through Gaara's ultimate defense. If he tried doing that without running first, chidori wouldn't have even penetrated the sand sphere at all. </p><p>Rock lee already proved that running at your top speed without the "eye" causes tunnel vision. Guy also stated sasuke was trained to rock lee levels of speed in preparation for the use of chidori. </p><p>My point about kcm naruto not running circles around the jinchuriki once the forest was destroyed still stands. when naruto uses his top speed, the characters make it abundantly clear. When he used his top speed to chase after kisame, kisame got blitzed, he was called the yellow flash, but naruto's foot got stuck in the ground, showing naruto's inexperience with using his newly found speed. When ayy used his absolute top speed, naruto was forced to use his absolute top speed to evade the attack. If naruto used his top speed24/7 then V1 Ayy wouldn't have been able to intercept him, period. Running at your top speed causes tunnel vision, and the faster you run the more time it takes to slow down. deceleration isn't instant. If naruto used his bamflash speed and gets counter attacked, he can likely sense it due to his malice sensing but his body is still off-balance from the extreme speed. In those precious seconds, a well timed attack can hit him while he is on the deceleration. </p><p>So given that, why would Minato run at his top bamflash speed straight into a chain? The faster he runs, the more momentum he has , the more force he has, and Newton's third law still is in play. if those chains hit him in the neck while he ran at such speeds he would be dead. Minato isn't an idiot, so he ran at a moderate speed once obito charged at him, and then analyzed obito's fighting style further. Minato's thought bubbles after that debunk your claim. </p><p>Here is the finale. The real reason Minato banned the technique is because the technique is designed to be used when the caster is running at high speeds. Hokage kakashi has lost his sharingan, so he cannot run at his top speed anymore with the jutsu. If you use the raikiri while standing still in CQC, that is also not worth the chakra cost when it requires handsigns (I'm ignoring plot armor here) and a kunai can serve the same function in most situations and it's easier to simply deflect kakashi's attack. kakashi uses the raikiri in situations where the rasengan is the better choice because of his personality, and because of the raiton chakra it can still kill people in close quarters combat but the penetrative force is not as devastating that way. </p>

<p>1) Exhibit A Chapter 392 pg 10, mirror clearly expands in height and width to deflect snakes. 2) Exhibit B, Take a careful look at Chapter 393 pg 8. I'm looking at the Viz scans, both in color and in black and white, and you can clearly see the mirror expanded to cover the left side of Susano'o. Not only that it expanded to cover susano'os head, and is even reaching as far as to cover the back of susano'o, clear evidence that the mirror adapts. </p><p>3) Exhibit C. Take a careful look at Chapter 393 pg 5-6. The mirror clearly expands in height to counter an upward thrown paper bomb thrown at susano'o. On that same page, you can clearly see the SFX :whoosh, which means rapid movement through the air. That is concrete physical evidence that the mirror adapts, and the SFX proves that the mirror was decreasing in size back to normal. Undeniable evidence. </p><p>
4) Finally, Exhibit D, Chapter 393 pg 9. The Yata mirror is not only covering the front, but has expanded to cover the WHOLE LEFT SIDE of Susano'o! You have to remember that the mirror doesn't have a physical form and can change any of it's properties. </p><p>The Yata Mirror downplay is something I anticipate in threads like these so I copied and pasted my usual counterarguments. Gaara tries to pull itachi out? great, mirror adapts and stops the sand from touching him. Sand pyramid? mirror repels the crushing force. Itachi's susano'o is objectively stronger than Madara's because he has a Yata Mirror while Madara doesn't. </p><p>
The official manga translation on Chapter 392 pg 14 CLEARLY states the Totsuka blade does not have a physical form. The blade can cut through and pierce through anything and due to it's ethereal properties, and anyone the tip pierces through is sealed away. The only way to deal with the blade is to dodge, except the thrusting speed is incredible. </p><p>Orochimaru in the official translation very clearly says "eh?" as the blade pierces through him. That is the phrase someone uses when they don't know what just hit them. The blade literally moved so fast that optic nerves could not process the visual information in the time it took for it to pierce through him. Lol, ITachi was the on one on his death bed. Nothing says orochimaru was weakened, he was literally using his most powerful snake technique... </p><p>Nagato was also in the best condition he ever was. Edo Tensei, improved mobility, and not to mention he was jacked up on Gyuki chakra. So no excuses. If the blade wasn't fast, he would have time to attempt the preta path, attempt subsitution, attempt a summoning technique, anything that could potentially impede the blade's path, deflect it, etc. The fact he couldn't in his healthiest condition proves the blade is fast, and Nagato objectively has one of the best reflexes and processing speeds in the manga. He isn't V2 Ayy, sure, but he literally had to fight using 6 different bodies in 6 different locations in Konoha, and it takes good processing speed to do such effective multitasking. </p><p>
The fight against Gaara literally ends within the first few seconds of the match. Itachi has already shown he is smart enough to take advantage of line of sight blockers when launching the blade, as he used the smokescreen from chibaku tensei to launch the blade at nagato, reducing the time and space Nagato had to react to it. Gaara opens with a sand tsunami in the desert... Itachi's susano'o forms in fractions of the second. The blade isn't gonna be easy to see because Gaara can't see through his own sand. The blade pierces through, and if Gaara is lucky, his gourd sand feats as an adult might just be quick enough to react to the blade, except the blade just pierces through it anyways. Gaara won't see it coming, because he is blinded by his own sand, the blade is incredibly fast, and I highly doubt Gaara has better reflexes than Orochimaru and Prime Edo Gyuki chakra boosted Nagato. Restrict the totsuka blade to make this a fair fight, and also restrict the yata mirror too while you are at it, because right now even Adult Gaara gets mercilessly stomped. </p>

<p>@JamesSenpai </p><p>I showed you clear evidence of your bias. you could easily find plenty of sfx guides online, I just found one and showed it to you and ignored it. It's like I'm talking to a brick wall at this point. I also very clearly stated that the PHYSICAL COPY of the manga has it in bookstores or they exist in a similar section, because I have seen them for other manga, I didn't tell you to use whatever website you are on. What, you think Sfx guides don't exist ? how else do people translate the sound effects? you are just being an idiot. And no I don't have to post Viz scans, because you clearly have access to the resources yourself. Get your self the manga and the sfx guide your goddam self before calling other people liars. >Doesn't have access to Viz, wants other users to post the resources for them because too lazy to do it themselves. Any admin watching this thread could verify my claims. This is what I have been saying the whole time, your reading comprehension baffles me. So I could care less what you think of me. The manga speaks for itself.The shield clearly expanded and has the appropriate SFX in the Viz. Momentum is a property of an object, guess you also don't understand physics either. Momentum = mass times velocity. Velocity being changed means the movement can be changed, it's that simple. </p><p>Waste of my time arguing with someone who clearly can't understand what I'm saying, then out here with these false accusations.... smh. </p><p>And where do the rules say that I'm required to help a biased user get access to resources? nowhere. so get out of here with that. </p><p>Someday, when you get some common sense and actually get yourself a copy of the actual manga before spouting your claims and look into how the sound effect translations and what they mean, I hope you realize how wrong you were when you look at Chapter 393 pg 6. Good day. </p>

<p>what in the world...? You said you rewatched the fight and yet you still haven't seen where kabuto clearly says himself that his snake eyes blocks out all light? He CANT SEE. that's why he is immune to visual genjutsu Chapter 580 says the same thing. </p>

<p>No version of Gaara can defeat Itachi. </p><p>His sand shield is completely irrelevant because totsuka blade is basically a ghost sword. It's going through his shield, and when it does Gaara won't see it coming because Itachi is faster and smarter than he is being given credit for. </p><p>Itachi still has an incredible actions per second magnitude . In the time it took for him to sheath shurikens, he already weaved the signs for three separate techniques: a water technique, a shadow clone technique, and a substitution technique. Itachi's technique speed is still something that keeps him in the game against many top tier shinobi, so factor in yata and totsuka hax and there is nothing gaara can do. </p><p>This fight ends before it begins. The totsuka blade was so fast that orochimaru nor nagato could mentally process it. Think about that. The optic nerves in their eyes didn't have enough time to communicate to their brains that there was a giant blade speeding toward them. Nagato couldn't take any mental or physical action to block/evade the blade despite having a wide arsenal of techniques at his behest that could have potentially done it. </p><p>So, even in the desert, Itachi can simply genjutsu the eye as people have already stated. alternatively, all he has to do is wait until gaara forms his sand shell. when Gaara sends a tsunami of sand at him, Gaara will still be blinded by his own sand, third eye or not. Gaara is still kind of a stationary fighter... so itachi just has to mark his position with the sharingan then launch the blade through all the sand, and Gaara is one shotted. </p><p>
Itachi also has high mobility and isn't just gonna stand there wasting his chakra. Yata mirror stops any of the sand attacks anyway lol. </p>

<p>@JamesSenpai Blatant ignorance. You yourself cited the databook scan, yet you missed the statement of the mirror "power to change any one of it's physical properties". That is enough proof that it can move if it needs to. </p><p>I didn't word myself wrong at all. Like I said, for the umpteenth time, growing and changing in size is a type of movemement, as the author clearly shows you the sfx:whoosh on the mirror on the same page it is decreasing in size back to normal. You are the one acting ignorant, and the reason you still don't get it is because you still haven't accessed the sfx guide. It's not surprising you don't understand the clear English coming out of my keyboard when you literally don't understand the context of my statements. When an object grows in size rapidly, that is considered a type of movement. As choji grows with his expansion jutsu, he is literally displacing all the air above him. The same thing happens when you clearly see kcm naruto's chakra arms growing out from him and there are movement lines drawn on the chakra arm... </p><p>IF you truly accessed the Viz like you claimed, you can clearly see the SFX:whoosh there on the manga page. So Idk what to tell you. How hard is it to research what the SFX:whoosh means and confirm what I said? These dictionaries exist online even if you didn't get a physical copy from a bookstore, and even just now I googled a dictionary that says the same thing. http://thejadednetwork.com/sfx/search/?keyword=Sfx%3Awhoosh&submitSearch=Search+SFX&x= Sfx:whoosh = swift or fast motion, clearly shown at the bottom of the page on this site. Then, since you supposedly have accessed the Viz scans, the sfx:whoosh is clearly shown on the page I referenced. If after this post, you still somehow don't get it, then I'm confident you are biased. I used the correct translation and I gave you the definition multiple times. </p><p>
Yes Itachi only needs 3 tomoe to defeat Jiraiya. I use feats to support my arguments, so spare me the nonsense about the "itachi fan community having a bad rep". It only has a bad rep with people who refuse to look at feats critically. Itachi is second only to hashirama when it comes to clone feinting. Itachi literally clone feinted Sage mode kabuto multiple times, yet base Jiraiya is tracking his clone formations? yeah right. Second of all, Itachi is a genius. Jiraiya is smart and creative but he isn't on Itachi's level, period. Anyone who thinks that obviously needs to reread the whole manga. Itachi is literally the second greatest genjutsu user of all time behind shisui, not including those with the ten tails. He can kill Jiraiya in 2 moves. Superior hand seal speed, first of all. Jiraiya won't even know when Itachi has made a move because he lacks a sharingan, not that it helped kakashi and sasuke lmao. On the flip side, Itachi can easily grasp insight into Jiraiya's jutsu formation with his own sharingan. So Itachi can steal initiative in the fight and cast his hand seals the moment he sees jiraiya starting his own handseals, and Itachi's jutsu will still go off first, and there is literally no opening technique in Jiraiya's arsenal that Itachi doesn't have an answer for. So, Finger genjutsu followed by exploding shadow clone wins the fight before it begins. Jiraiya can break the genjutsu but as soon as he does, the clone will already be behind him. Itachi is faster in every way-better jutsu speed, better movement speed, better reflexes, and he has better hax in general, and that isn't even including all his mangeyko hax. Jiraiya isn't on Itachi's level. </p><p>Rofl. Kisame is an antimeta swordsman. If you haven't paid attention, samehada is very long in length it's essentially as tall as Kisame is. Furthermore, on top of that, samehada has shown the ability to grow in length by elongating the handle. A battle starts at the most, 30 feet away. With his sword length, Kisame literally only has to cover less than 2/3s of that distance thanks to the reach of samehada. Then on TOP of that, samehada doesn't even need direct physical contact to start absorbing chakra/ninjutsu. Base Jiraiya has no running speed feats (especially backward running feats, and backward running is slower than forward running) to suggest he is any faster than Kisame. So Kisame will chase him down and control the distance with his longsword. You also clearly didn't watch the parts of the canon that showed why swordsmen are antimeta to ninjutsu users because kenjutsu>handsigns. Kisame adds a whole new level to that because even if you get a ninjutsu off before he closes the distance, samehada simply absorbs it. When Kisame charges, Jiraiya is smart enough to know he can't let kisame get into Close range, or jiraiya loses the fight right then and there, because he has no way of escaping or dealing with samehada without access to sage mode. Kisame is physically stronger, more durable, and jiraiya isn't might guy, he isn't beating kisame in Close quarters combat, and his ninjutsu are useless to chakra absorption. Kisame has already shown the ability to even interrupt summoning jutsu. Jiraiya is most likely gonna do what he did to Pain and use a smoke bomb to escape when Kisame charges, so that he can use his guerrilla tactics and stall to enter sage mode. Except, Kisame then has initiative to summon the water dome, fuse with his sword, activating his sensing abilities, and the fight is over. Jiraiya has no way of escaping Kisamehada in the water dome, period. It's highly unlikely that Jiraiya even gets the chance to enter sage mode before Kisame drains him to death. </p><p>And you are using abc logic. Base jiraiya can beat kakashi, but kakashi has a much higher chance of defeating kisame compared to base jiraya because he has two things samehada can't stop: genjutsu and kamui. Jiriaya needs to get into sage mode first before he can utilize any genjutsu. Kakashi (depending on the variant) has a decent chance to steal a win against kisame with a genjutsu + kamui more times than not, because he too knows too much about samehada to be stupid enough to try using raikiri on Kisame without a plan. Kisame is likely skilled enough to break kakashi's genjutsu but depending on the variant of kakashi (early war arc kakashi has enough aiming proficiency and chakra reserves to effectively utilize kamui in battle) snipe Kisame's head off just as kisame breaks the genjutsu, and he can do those two moves when kisame tries to close the distance on him. </p>

<p>Itachi vs Six paths Sasuke and six paths Naruto is interesting. Yata mirror would stop Amenotejikara in it's tracks. But Itachi has to elevate to complete body susano'o first. He can end up dying to the pincer attack naruto and sasuke used against juubidara before the mirror comes out, because he doesn't have any intel on sasuke's new technique. but that assumes Sasuke would use Ameno immediately, would he? </p>