All posts by Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki

<div class="quote"><i> <p>Princeharris1993 wrote: Oro can easily summon Rashomon Gates to divert Itachi's TB, which he already knows about. Konan can easily turn into paper upon being stabbed, not to mention Orochimaru can just use his body replacement technique to escape before he is sealed away. If Orochimaru has access to Kabuto's techniques (Strange Transmission Distant Shadow and the like), he could easily break down his body and escape being stabbed. Not to mention he could use use the genjutsu on Itachi and trap him. Without another Sharingan user to help him escape, he is pretty much screwed. </p><p>Orochimaru may have been defeated easily with Genjutsu the first time and the Totsuka Blade the second time, but since he has knowledge of the past encounters, his chances of survival go up exponentially. Even if Itachi catches Oro in genjutsu, Kimimaro and Konan keeping him on the ropes for even a second is long enough for Oro to break the Genjutsu. With access to the KG and abilities of the Sound 4 (5), Orochimaru has a great advantage over Itachi this time around. Add in actual Senjutsu (non curse seal) and his power and range are increased several times over. </p><p>Not saying it will be easy, but I don't see Itachi beating Orochimaru this time around. </p><p>@ Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki "It’s from itachi’ novel. This very forum has multiple official timelines, the novels appear on them all." </p><p>Yeah, no. Novels aren't canon and this wikia DOESN'T have multiple OFFICIAL timelines. There is only 1 canon timeline and that is the Manga and "The Last" movie along with anything else that was official stated as being "Canon". The novel for the Boruto Movie set the foundation for the movie itself, iirc, so if it indeed came before said characters were featured in the manga, then it may be considered canon to an extent. </p> </i></div>
<p>Itachi novel is canon. You saying it isn’t doesn’t make it so. </p>

Is there a way to tag people on talk pages?

<p>ESTO and before that madara’ 6 TSOs disintegrated. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>LoneNinja wrote: Where are you reading that from? That isn't even in the anime either. But even so, fool = idiot. It remains the same. Kakashi froze in fear. He didn't freeze against Itachi. But against Orochimaru he just stood there afraid, unable to do anything as he let a wanted rogue criminal walk away. </p> </i></div>
<p>It’s from itachi’ novel. This very forum has multiple official timelines, the novels appear on them all. Itach beats orochimaru. He bested orochimaru already. In fact, it was orochimaru’ loss to Itachi that made him leave the akatsuki. Why would two edos change what the manga makes crystal clear. Itachi wins. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>Ninja Of War wrote: @Hag0r0m0 </p><p>Check again who the OP is. Koto needs to be reprogrammed to be used in combat, then also it comes into question whether koto will be available for use in the first place due to 10 year cool down period. And no, I'm not allowing it just to pander to your assumptions. </p><p>Speed feat doesn't exist for the reasons mentioned above, explain to me why my points are invalid. Don't tell me I can't debunk something that is featless. Otherwise I can say that Kurenai is faster than Itachi because she could dodge Itachi's kunai. </p><p>Itachi completed missions perfectly? What is meant by that? Killing Obito? Failed. Manipulating Sasuke? Failed. Hindering the Akatsuki? Failed. Unrivaled in efficiency? In what exactly lol. Itachi always been in control of the situations he's put in? Yeah, forgot about when he was reanimated by Kabuto or when he was "forced" to kill off his clan. </p><p>My point is not to dismantle each of your points, but to point out that you like to hype up Itachi, but say nothing about how this battle will go. Maybe try to give a rundown of this fight, taking into account how these two combatants will think and how they will fight in their preferred methods. </p> Novels are not canon, it's not about whether I like it or not.</i></div>
<p>Why add in more rules on the fly if not to nerf one side of the fight? Your original post did not say koto was already programmed. You must realize that Itachi spent many years alive without sickness. You are deliberately attempting to pick a specific point in the range of time where koto is already programmed. Which sucks for you because I can just as easily point to moments before when it wasn’t programed. Both meet the criteria of the OP. You are free to change the original match, but that in it self is a concession. The speed feat does exist for the reasons mentioned above. Your denial of Itachi’ blatant superior reaction to Naruto and bee is amusing. Those events are solidified. Itachi took several steps back while Naruto and bee were still striking. So tell me again how were they distracted at the that very moment. Chapter 549 pages 5, 11, and 14 you’ll see Itachi and nagato helping bee and Naruto. Page 7 is where you’ll find the blitz, remind me again how were they distraction during their attack? </p><p>Why create false equivalences when you can just concede? I take it you haven’t read the novel. Don’t worry it was stated in manga also. His efficiency on missions were perfect.[1] If he treats this fight like another mission, it’s his W. How exactly is orochimaru going to win here? Itachi’ knowledge of jutsu makes him more than prepared.[2] </p><p>Yea, but I’m not hyping him. I just gave you evidence of most of what I told you. I got proof of the rest also. So yes, Orochimaru lose and you now know why. </p>

TSOs can replenish. This was proven already.

<div class="quote"><i> <p>Ninja Of War wrote: @Hag0r0m0 </p><p>But then you are giving Itachi prep time if you allow him to use Koto. Plus additional prep time for re-programming of koto for combat. You are confused between two instances, the first is the 30% shape-shifting technique Nagato used on Itachi, back when he fought team 7 with Chiyo. The second is when edo Nagato and Itachi fought Bee and Naruto. </p><p>In the second instance mentioned above, there is no speed feat for Itachi because, 1) Naruto and Itachi were trying to have a conversation, therefore they are not fighting full out and 2) One dodge from Samehada doesn't make Itachi a speed monster. </p><p>The first instance mentioned above showcased a clone shrugging off Itachi's genjutsu and furthermore no indication of a speed feat, since Kakashi was fighting quite fine. </p><p>Izumi is not canon, sorry. </p> </i></div>
<p>Koto should be allowed because the OP says alive with no sickness, not ‘before shisui dies’ or ‘without shisui’ eyes’. Likewise, the OP doesn’t state this fight takes place after he programed koto. Plus it’s no different from kakashi receiving obito’ sharingan. That said, koto should force orochimaru to forfeit or tsukuyomi kills him. Like it or not, Itachi’ novel are canon. The speed feat does exist because they were fighting in that moment. Not many words were exchanged in those exact panels, if any at all. No one called him a speed monster smh. You can’t debunk what’s literally handed to you on a platter in the manga. </p><p>Itachi has completed missions PERFECTLY. In this regard, he is unrivaled in efficiently. Even shikamaru has ran into unforeseen problems. So think about that and how Itachi has always been in control of the situations he’s put in. </p><p>This match ends faster than the Itachi v. Deidara fight. </p>

<p>And kaguya being apart of and literally revived from the juubi would establish beyond all doubts that it has ohtsutsuki chakra. Right? </p><p>So hypothetically speaking, would that then mean rikudo sagehood is really juubi sagehood or ohtsutsuki sagehood as opposed to toad or snake sagehood? </p><p>I guess that might makes sense, especially if you consider the unique traits granted by each one, frog kata, inorganic reanimation, and TSOs + biju power + flight, all while each granting sage power. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>CombatIQmatters wrote: See the pigmentation argument is a valid one but the one problem with that stance is that we have seen that being a juubi jinchruki grants one either six paths sage transformation or six paths sage mode. So why would naruto's SPSM suddenly be independent of the bijuu? Then it was argued that SPSM can be achieved without any juubi involvement. this claim hasn't been concretely proved up to now, but I've given it the benefit of the doubt based on the logic that was used to justify it. So let's say that naruto's SPSM doesn't have anything to do with the bijuu chakra, why wouldn't he have truth seeking orbs or the 9 tomoe on his cloak then? If the bijuu are simply one way to achieve ridoku sagehood, why wouldn't the other way (whatever hagoromo did to naruto) give the same markers? Ridoku senjutsu is ridoku senjutsu, is it not? we are basically trying to argue that naruto's RSM is some obscure mode that has a misleading naming convention using this logic. </p> </i></div>
<p>They want to belive that Naruto uses rsm several times as hokage, but we’ve yet to see a single feat exclusive to the form. Everything about hokage Naruto’ power indicates kurama sage mode. </p> <div class="quote"><i> <p>AsianReaper wrote: Edit the topic, leave your reply, sign the reply with four ~'s </p> </i></div>
<p>Thanks. Btw I cover ashura’ rikudo sagehood on the talk page. Y’all should check it out. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>AsianReaper wrote: The actual term that was used was "six paths power" not "juubi" or "ten tails" power. </p> Wow, it's almost like SPSM isn't what causes the sage marks on the back. Incredible.</i></div>
<p>That power is the juubi’ own chakra, also called rikudo senjutsu. It’s the exact power both obito and madara gained after sealing each biju(or their fragmented power) inside of the gedo statue, and then into themselves.[1] This made them become juubi jinchuriki which granted them the power to achieve rikudo sagehood through transformation. Naruto was also consider a juubi jinchuriki because with cooperation of those 9 fragments he achieved the same power, juubi chakra aka rikudo senjutsu.[2] </p><p>Obito never got any chakra from hagoromo, nor has he recreated hagoromo’ chakra. From this we understand that Six Paths Power can mean two things: hagoromo’ power, or juubi power’. Thankfully, discerning which meaning is more appropriate typically isn’t difficult, but there are exceptions. </p><p>Side Note: How do I reply to someone on the talk page? </p>

<p>You haven’t disproved juubi chakra involvement. Obito gave juubi chakra to kakashi and amped his susanoo, yet he didn’t get rikudo sage marks on his back or any TSOs. Implying he only had a low level of that power. </p><p>Try again, with actual proof this time. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>LegionZero wrote: For the love of... </p> Hagoromo and/or Hamura had SPS before sealing the Juubi. Hamura had it after Hagoromo sealed the juubi inside of himself. Hagoromo had it after he released the Juubi's chakra and separated its parts.</i></div>
<p>This in no way disproves juubi chakra’ involvement. </p> <div class="quote"><i> LegionZero wrote:Madara didnt know the full story of Hagoromo and Hagoromo was famous mostly for how strong he was after he sealed the Juubi inside himself.</i></div>
<p>This in no way disproves juubi chakra’ involvement. </p> <div class="quote"><i> LegionZero wrote: Not all SPS chakra is Juubi chakra.</i></div>
<p>You can’t prove that. </p>

<p>Juubi chakra is rikudo sage chakra. Madara confirmed this, so does shikamaru’ novel. </p>

<p>I address that and more on the talk page[1] </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>Ninja Of War wrote: @Hag0r0m0 </p><p>No speed feat for Itachi in the instance of him versus Naruto and Bee. A single dodge from Samehada and the scuffle between Itachi and Naruto when they are trying to have a conversation is not indicative of a speed feat. </p><p>Koto is programmed to Itachi's own eye, that will not help him. Itachi's genjutsu on Izumi is not canon though. And no, it was real Itachi that placed Kakashi under Tsukuyomi, not 30% clone Itachi. 30% clone Itachi's genjutsu was easily shrugged off by a shadow clone of Kakashi. </p><p>Itachi's sharingan genjutsu doesn't actually seem all that special if you know what to expect. </p> </i></div>
<p>You can’t say no plot then say Itachi’ koto is restricted to his own eye. What’s stopping him from reprogramming it? Nothing. </p><p>It is a combat/reaction speed feat. It is shown in both anime and manga. Plus it was a 30% clone. In fact it was nagato’ impersonation jutsu. </p><p>Izumi is canon, the novel is canon, this very forum hosts a timeline that confirms it. </p><p>Just because that what it seems like doesn’t mean that’s what it is. </p>

You can deduce that Sasuke similarly summoned hagoromo as well.

<p>At one point I thought kabuto had a part in sasuke’ rinnegan awakening, I kinda still do tbh. But Sasuke eye awakened on the same side that hagoromo gave his power to. That alone is enough to deduce it was a direct result of pure rikudo chakra. This chakra is greater than madara rikudo chakra as it took less than a day if not under an hour to manifest, whereas madara’ took decades. </p>

<div class="quote"><i> <p>LoneNinja wrote: @Brain </p><p>I don't see the statement. Just post the picture on my actual talk page. </p><p>@Hag0r0m0 </p><p>Except Naruto was trying to speak to Itachi the entire time, trying to have a full conversation. Therefore, it's generally not accepted as a feat since Naruto wasn't trying to kill Itachi as Itachi was trying to kill him (reanimation forces his body even if his mind isn't into it). So Itachi's speed isn't on KCM level especially when Kakashi could keep up with him and I will not accept that Kakashi is the same speed as KCM Naruto prior to the 4th War. </p><p>And no. Itachi isn't putting them all in Genjutsu at once. Where's your proof Itachi has the skill to put multiple S Class Shinobi in Genjutsu? Obito and Sasuke's feats do not = Itachi's feats. His eyes don't give Sasuke his Genjutsu prowess. That's just a made up fact on your part. </p> </i></div>
<p>The feat I’m talking about was during bee and Naruto’ attack. They weren’t distracted at that moment, though I agree they did lose focus at one point. Still, Itachi put several paces worth of distance between them before they finished their strike. It is underrated as a speed feat. </p><p>Itachi is putting them under genjutsu, he put deidara in genjutsu. He put orochimaru in one also. Plus obito’ feat was very casual. </p><p>Koto has proven effective against edo, it should cause enough trouble to secure a win. </p><p>Also Itachi has killed using genjutsu alone. He made Izumi live out a lifetime in under a second using tsukuyomi. Kakashi was placed for a mere 3 Days. Keep in mind that was a clone of Itachi at 30% of his true power. Itachi spared kakashi’ life like he did kurenai and asuma and jiraiya from kisame’ wrath. He kept kisame in check each time. Even told asuma I don’t want to kill you. He prevented the worse outcome, because he was still trying to protect them while undercover in akatsuki. </p><p>I’m not sure how to add spoilers but I do know this reply needs it. </p><p>Point is Itachi does outclass kakashi in genjutsu and visual prowess in general, barring war arc kakashi. </p>

<p>Itachi witnessed obito place nearly 20 people in genjutsu at once. This happened in itachi’ novel which is included on the canon timeline(s) hosted on this site. Also, Sasuke used basic 3 tomoe sharingan to read a life time of memories in an instant. You could argue that this ability scales to anyone with 3 tomoe sharingan, or you could argue that the ability is unique to his eye, but either way Itachi gets the feat because those are literally his eyes Sasuke used for it. Plus this feat happened in Sasuke’ novel which is just as canon. </p><p>Keep in mind that basic sharingan genjutsu can be placed in under 1/100 of a second, and ms genjutsu under 1/1000. This is also found in itachi’ novel. </p><p>Plus edo Itachi’ clash with bee and Naruto prove a strength and speed gap. Itachi not only exchanged blows with kcm Naruto, he also massively outpaced bee and Naruto while they were in mid swing. Knowing what edo’ mechanic is and how it works, alive Itachi’ stats are more impressive. </p><p>So even though yata mirror was nerfed to one directional here, it’s fine because he wouldn’t really need them. </p><p>Itachi makes a shadow clone that he sends to blitz and place them all in genjutsu at once. He then spawns totska and seals. </p><p>There’s also koto, shisui’ genjutsu, which proved effective against edo. So konan could wind up killing orochimaru. Or Itachi could just force orochimaru to undo the jutsu himself just like with sage kabuto. </p>

<p>The claims and counterarguments that were made, specifically the ones that directly go against the OP, have all been debunked, clarified or addressed. None of them survived the course of this thread. I only quote myself when someone asks for an answer I already gave. This goes back to my request for new arguments. </p><p>I haven’t refused information. I made myself clear that I understood you. I also made clear the reasons why you are wrong. That doesn’t mean I didn’t hear you out. Rather, it’s because I heard you that I know you’re wrong. I said this several times, your claims may have seemed more accurate in the past when less was understood, but times are different now. There’s no reason to supplement context directly from the databook with personal speculation. That’s illogical. </p><p>What you call being ‘wrapped up’ is actually just me pointing to moments in canon that debunk you. Doing this doesn’t prevent me from thinking critically. This was the only thing done to debunk you. </p><p>When did pointing out moments in canon become mental gymnastics? And who said I was always right? I was corrected multiple times, so what you said there is also not true. Your opinion of me isn’t reflective of the truth but also clouds your judgement. I never made this post thinking I was incapable of being wrong. </p><p>That said, my point has been agreed on already. </p>

<p>You are mistaken I directly spoke about the argument you mentioned. They in fact were acknowledged, but they are wrong. I took you step by step and explained to you why. It’s not like I’m saying any of this without reason or evidence. I gave sources that explain how to properly read articles and digest the information. You aren’t doing that with the Rsm Databook Page. That is the only argument you just presented. </p><p>You said you had others, what are they? </p>