All posts by Dyss00

Itachi if not fighting death

Killer Bee if WA version

Tobirama

Minato

That's not answered, but, they still work under Chakra, so real life logic doesn't quite apply. Besides, iirc Kakashi and Obito could see what each other were looking at as long as they were near each other, so the Sharingan keeps some connection through Chakra to the Chakra of the user. This is consistent with Kakashi's evolving, when we know Sharingan goes through its processes of becoming stronger by receiving the stimulus from the special Chakra of an Uchiha's brain, which Kakashi just can't replicate.

Kinda silly, just making an extra step to see how wild this can be: do we know if Madara even took his other eyes out in order to use Izuna's? Cuz Sasuke's progress is absolutely skipped, showing the bandages on his face when we see him.

Nah, one pair probably stops working. The implication is that the person with EMS has both pair of eyes in them.

^ can be literally overwhelmed by a strong enough fireball

A bit. Can't say it justifies it's many flaws. Specially when it's a pretty different ability (Neji uses that for defense).

Most powerscalers don't use that cuz KM0 Naruto varies a lot btw. Can't know for sure how many Chakra Kurama is giving, nor how much is his fury amping Naruto. This same Base Naruto for example is much stronger against Gaara, even when being more tired, than he was against Neji, even though that was only a few hours before. Idk how I personally feel about this, though.

I'm not saying it is the case, just mentioning why it is a valid topic. Didn't explain Zabuza's side cuz I felt like it was not needed.

Anyway, it's not stated. Implied yes, but as I said, to argue for Neji would go by interpreting this as how he avoids the kills on purpose. He holds back in the sense that he wants to spare their lives, not in the sense of purposefully acting weak. And that's what the implication is, Haku tells Sasuke he doesn't want to have to kill him, and the other implications come from Zabuza noticing those words Haku said. Just like the Jonin didn't want to kill Neji but they instantly stopped him from further moving towards Hinata, except they do it with no diff while for Haku it took a lot of effort.

That doesn't mean it's unlegit when he is outspeed, damaged or reacted by, which happened a lot. Zabuza, seeing their exchange, didn't think "Oh how nice of Haku to slow down in order to test his opponent first.", he thought "Aha... he can keep up with Haku's speed." and later "Haku is actually losing in a battle of speed?!". Kakashi who already knew Haku was stronger than him and Zabuza, said "Let Sasuke handle Haku", implied he can hold his own at least to some extent. When Sasuke outspeeds and kicks Haku, making him bleed, that blood is legit. Zabuza knowing how strong Haku is, tells him "You could end up dying at the hands of the very person you sought to spare", implying Sasuke is an actual threat to Haku and this exchange was not just a fluke.

While the mirrors at the beginning do overpower Sasuke quickly, by the end of next chapter he has evolved to the point he can say "My eyes are beginning to adjust to the environment", and Haku says "He's gradually gaining speed, beginning to catch up to my own moves". This is before Sasuke got the Sharingan, just in case, so there's no precognition involved. Finally, when he gets the Sharingan, Haku thinks to himself "It would be foolhardy to try to target you directly", implying he can't take Sasuke down quickly anymore.

Also, no amount of holding back for Haku excuses Zabuza's water clones, which are stated to have 10% of his power each at the moment, Sasuke beating like 9 of them in chapter 22 (Hence why 10%, since they are stated equal to the user).

Neji vs Zabuza is actually a good topic, considering how awful Haku did against Sasuke not being able to take him down quickly to go help Zabuza even with the mirrors, to the point Zabuza (who believes Haku is superior to him) is the same person who believed that Sasuke was Haku's equal (which means he doesn't perceive Haku as massively holding back), this Sasuke in turn being much inferior to CE Neji. Even if Haku wanted to avoid letality, the speed showings are still there, and the damage on Haku is still there, not close to one what would expect from someone much above. Even Base Rock Lee with weighs performed relatively or arguably better against a stronger Sasuke.

However, about the video itself? Almost awful honestly. Ability listing is fun but useless. Can do the same to say Tayuya or Kurenai beat Eight Gate Guy as they don't go for hand to hand combat and he has no answer to Genjutsu. It has practically no value in a powerscaling perspective which is clearly its intended purpose.

All three combatants in that fight have boosts to their perception and were helped equally by it. Regardless, can clearly see how Obito is swinging around randomly, once he commits to a direction they both find him and he is forced to block which is a better testament to their combat speed than predicting someone who is focusing on not being predicted (with TSOs btw, a testament to their AP).

Can also see in the panel you refer to that Obito moves about, what, 3 times more than Sasuke's swing? Which is limited by his sword's length unlike Obito's movement but whatever, it still helps my point, as Sasuke being 3 times slower than Juubito still means he would be faster when you add a X10 amp on top of this BSM level character.

On what basis was he toying? Why would he allow them to break his TSOs on purpose? Why would he play around if he was short on time? Why would he be blocking when he wanted to shift to offensive if he could just elevate the power he was using? Why does this even matter when Hashirama still affirmed he couldn't take on a much weaker Juubito? Why does Juubito say they can *no longer* win at chapter 651 as the presentation of his new weapon?

Yer also taking what I'm saying out of context by ignoring how it relates to Hashirama, Madara, the Juubi... It isn't just that they are vaguely close which on its own means nothing, it's that they are close comparatively to where those 3 are, in other words, I'm arguing low end relativity to Hashirama/Madara/Juubi in a minor gap that a curse mark level amp would be enough to overcome.

Short explanation is EMS Sasuke is enough to keep up with Juubito and be threatening. You give him the cursed mark on top of that and he for sure beats Edo Madara. Edo Madara is stronger than the Juubi who is stronger to this statue.

The statue just has nothing notable going around for it. No real reason to believe it to be as boosted. I'll try to make a compelling argument for the other side still, without going on too much detail.

Peak EMS Sasuke (Perfect Susanoo) is equal to BSM Naruto through their feats against Juubito. This is without the Curse Mark which would grant a X10+ multiplier, as well as other boosts you gave to it, which I'll only use to claim this version of Sasuke would be stronger than Edo Madara as KCM2 Naruto was already putting on a fight plus arguably non-PS Edo Madara ~ WM Obito (And since WM Obito ~< KCM2 Naruto w/o Avatar < BSM Naruto w/o Avatar = EMS Sasuke non-PS (As the Avatars just cancel out as seen in VOTE2), we can already infer Peak EMS Sasuke might possibly be above Edo Madara but I'll add the X10 to make sure).

Or, in a much shorter way although it requires to explain how much a X10 really is, this Sasuke was already keeping up to an extent to Stable Juubito, who is remarkably superior to Hashirama, and even more to Edo Madara. This means he is for sure keeping up with Edo Madara. Add a X10 and he wins tbh, for reference the difference between Armless Orochimaru and Sage Mode Naruto is at most around X15.

Edo Madara meanwhile, by blurb of volume 66, is implied to be the main force in villains team as that's what they remark the most about their opposition, which would include the Juubi which is surely stronger than the Gedo Statue narratively. May as well go Edo Madara = Edo SM Hashirama and argue it to be superior to the Juubi by sealing its movement but the last part isn't very solid tbf.

@Jhamamel Sure, I mostly have FKS KCM Naruto as basically the same as right before facing the fourth Raikage. This Naruto is mostly comparable to Early WA Bee, from what we see in that fight or from another thing that I'll have to explain at the end for it to make sense.

Said WA Bee is relative to WA KCM Naruto after making 13 clones, based on their fight against Edo Itachi/Nagato as well as the Edo Jinchuriki. This allows us to infer FKS KCM Naruto ~ WA KCM Naruto post-clones (This is important because when making 13 clones he's equally dividing his Chakra by 14 which is an important nerf, that got compensated by the mental amp he received by getting the resolve to fight his own fights, take the burden of everyone who trusts in him, and cover his father's place as a savior; just in case, we learn in part 1 how half of what Chakra is comes from the mind, the mental state, it's related to it everytime, these things are power progression not just because it's what we can see but also because the power system is written in that way on purpose).

WA KCM Naruto when fighting Edo Itachi and Edo Nagato (Which means, it considers this nerfs from the clones, in other words equal to FKS KCM Naruto) justifies his new feats by mentioning how he has become stronger than when fighting Pain. Can't post scans rn for some odd reason but this is in chapter 549. This means:

• He is stronger than in Sage Mode when fighting Pain. PA SM Naruto has a statement calling him equal to Pain. Pain had to take him off-guard and/or wait for Sage Mode to run out of time, which wouldn't happen with KCM nearly as much. At this point the heroes also have a much wider understanding of Rinnegan's abilities, to the point Obito considered using them as a waste of Chakra.

• He is stronger than in 8 tails V2 when fighting Pain. For reference, this state is stated to have cornered Pain (The one concentrating all the Chakra in the Preta Path, who had to run closer to Nagato's location to get enough power to seal him), and that was just on raw stats, meanwhile in KCM this Naruto keeps his BIQ and moveset.

There's also how Itachi considered KCM Naruto and Killer Bee as enough to stop Obito. Sure, Itachi doesn't have to know Obito had the Rinnegan, but he doesn't know Naruto is nerfing himself. He is basically confident this KCM Naruto clone-level, and Killer Bee who is relative to that same Naruto (Both relative to FKS KCM Naruto) would together take down Orange Mask Obito, who Minato having seen them both fight was sure was using Pain as a pawn (And having only their powers as context, this should mean it wasn't close in such terms, else they would be standing as equals or something from his POV).

With all this, I personally would go mid-diff at max, but not neg-diff.

As for the other way to get FKS KCM Naruto ~ WA Bee, it consists of Naruto performing relatively to V1 WA Ay, who he compares A3 to, while his clone got a similar performance. Therefore FKS KCM ~ V1 WA Ay ~ A3 ~ WA KCM clone ~ WA KCM Naruto post-clones ~ WA Bee. It's pretty consistent imo.

If it was WA KCM Naruto I'd def say neg-diff btw. This would just be 14 times stronger than the one I have been talking about. At least the difference between Base Naruto and Sage Mode Naruto, which took him from considering himself below Base Jiraiya (Konan, Armless Oro, 4T Naruto, Sasori tier) to being a level superior to the Sannins.

In terms of plot, the second war, would open the series to a whole different world of events, political conflicts, world building that the series didn't begin to explore.

In terms of character, Sakura, there're a ton of good ideas for her character but the execution failed most of the time; I believe most recurrent options just did not have any more ideas to explore to begin with, and that it shouldn't count as wasted potential cuz I can't see where such potential even was.

As in character could grow stronk but didnt, uhh I guess Sumire who is weaker now compared to her very early arc in the anime. Kimimaro would probably be my answer if we ignore Boruto.

If you are going by Gokage being the strongest ninja alive except for Sasuke

• The evidence Orochimaru has going on for him is already disproved as any interpretation that provides significant scaling for him contradicts this statement

• Same with Killer Bee (And his argument is pretty weak regardless)

Else

• Darui is just featless

• Rock Lee does lose any sort of argument (And his is already very weak regardless)

• Just opens the door to argue Sakura ~ Meno ~ 3T Sasuke ~ Kinshiki and use it against 6 to 12 of the 30

The wiki is supposed to inform the people who read it though, not be cool. When someone wants to find information about that one, they can only search Ranmaru and Dojutsu. Nobody is randomly guessing we called it the Kikirinchingan

For example?

Depends on level of talent imo

Highest tier should go for Sasuke, who can get them above Jigen's level in some years

Lowest tier should go for Guy, only one who will actually get something great out of you through the gates (Or end your misery)

Middle tier should go for Kakashi, good at teaching at every level, massive variety, very strong even if not Sasuke level being arguably the character closest to Kaguya in Shippuden

WA Gaara is crazy, specially by late war which is when Shukaku and him work together

Deidara only beats the Shippuden low tiers, Sasori is a pre-WA mid tier. They don't stand a chance against someone who managed to keep relevant enough to help in the 8th gate Guy fight thanks to the speed of his sand. His AP showings are better. His Dura showings are better. His reactions showings are better. He has a more reliable win condition. Plus Shukaku? Them two together managed to have Sage Mode Madara looking goofy and unable to dodge the bijuus. It's their presence what actually forces Madara to get the Rinnegan.

1. 1T Naruto. Equal to CM2 3T Sasuke or at least very damn close.

2. CM2 Kimimaro. Kabuto is unsure who will be stronger between him and CM2 Sasuke, but that's Sasuke without the third tomoe.

3. Gaara (Ik it's not asked to be added but I kinda want to). Pretty close to Kimimaro. Outperforms Lee.

4. Rock Lee. Outperforms KM0 Naruto against Kimimaro. Threatening for Base Kimimaro who Tayuya was already fearing.

5. RP Choji. Just a guess honestly. It's vague between him, 6 and 7.

6. Temari. Easily beats CM2 Tayuya, although a fatigued one (Which is why I put Choji above).

7. Kankuro. Same with S&U.

8. CM2 Tayuya. S&U have the same narrative as her, being implied possibly the strongest of the group and it not being decided. However, her statement comes from Orochimaru, while S&U's comes from Kabuto. I personally put more value in Oro's.

9. CM2 Sakon and Ukon. Explained above.

10. CM2 Kidomaru. Relative to the rest.

11. CM2 Jirobo. Low end relative to the rest.

12. Neji. Struggled against Kidomaru enough for me to not consider him truly relative. He was also the perfect counter there. I am confident on saying someone equal to Neji through sheer force would get stomped by Kidomaru.

13. Kiba. Did great through sheer force, but lost his fight.

14. Shikamaru. Did great through intellect, but lost his fight. I put him below because, just like Neji, he had a tactical advantage, facing a gimmick character.

@SenjuSensual Sasuke thinks the scroll must be talking about someone stronger than Kaguya. After seeing Momoshiki in action he tells Naruto those are the guys. Sasuke does know (and only know) of Kaguya's power after eating the fruit.