<p>Same scenario as Naruto Gaiden except instead of Sakura, it's Kakashi who fights Shin in the hideout.
</p><p>Kakashi is post-war Kakashi, meaning no Sharingan.
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(Edited by Mr. Grave)
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<p>Dude, chill. I don't think there's any rule against it but you're churning out way too much of these debate threads on like a daily basis. More importantly, a lot of these match-ups have been wildly unbalanced. DMS Obito should theoretically have all of DMS Kakashi's abilities + better stamina because of Hashi cells because the Sharingan is his and DMS Kakashi was Rinnegan Sasuke-tier. DMS Obito would stomp.
</p><p>Make one or two threads and stick with those for a while. Otherwise, you're just gonna litter the board with vs. that get no response from anyone.
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<p>Sure, maybe calling it a version of Tsukuyomi is inaccurate since each jutsu has different mechanics. IT is still the more potent genjutsu, though. Probably the most potent genjutsu seen in the series. And the only way you can break through it is via the Rinnegan or if you're an Edo (most likely because Edos don't have life force to suck on). So it would be pointless to bring up Tsukuyomi's time dilation when it's likely he won't get caught on it at all.
</p><p>Let me remind you Itachi fought Nagato once and never used Tsukuyomi. You could say Nagato was an Edo and genjutsu doesn't work on them if Itachi hadn't been hit by Kotoamatsukami prior to that. He even went on to get hit by Kabuto's sound genjutsu and Sasuke's standard visual genjutsu.
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<p>Rinnegan broke through Infinite Tsukuyomi which is an extremely more potent version of Itachi's Tsukuyomi. So yes, we do know how resistant it is to MS genjutsu since it actually broke through a genjutsu that is far superior to any normal MS.
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<p>Lol what? Hashirama stomps Tendo Pain. In fact, the only version of Nagato that would give Hashirama a run for his money would be mobile prime Nagato.
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<p>Three way fights are hard to predict and could go either way so I'm just gonna focus on the character feats.
</p><p>DMS Obito - if he has Hashirama cells + Six Paths chakra, he's the favorite to win this. Hashi cells seemingly gave him a chakra boost and the ability to spam his Mangekyou. Not to mention he can probably use PS like Kakashi did. He can easily dismantle the Six Paths of Pain and, as elusive as Minato is, if Obito's Susanoo is at least half as dangerous as Kakashi's Susanoo, he'd lose. If Kakashi got the drop on Kaguya I don't see how Minato can fare better than her.
</p><p>If he doesn't have Hashi cells or Six Paths chakra, however, he loses. I doubt he would be able to survive in a battle of attrition against KCM Minato and Six Paths of Pain considering the Mangekyo can drain a crapton of chakra.
</p><p>Pain - Pain's advantage is that he technically can't be killed and can regroup at a later time, unless Minato somehow makes a few leaps in logic and uncovers his secret. Other than that if we are to assume DMS Obito doesn't have issues with his chakra reserves, Pain would turn out to be the weakest of the three. Now, Nagato Pain would be a whole different story.
</p><p>KCM Minato - giving Minato KCM and having him be alive (meaning a boost in chakra reserves) is kinda overkill in my opinion. Base Minato would perform quite well against Six Paths of Pain and has already proven himself once against Obito. Regardless of the improved Kamui, if Obito doesn't have Hashi cells or SP chakra, he can't possibly deal with Minato whose speed, reflexes and FTG have already helped him avoid that jutsu once. As for Pain, FTG is a solid counter against most of Pain's top jutsu. He can teleport out of Chibaku Tensei, Shinra Tensei or Bansho Tennin and due to the jutsu's nature, it cannot be absorbed by Preta Path. He would also be able to dispatch animal summons with relative ease. His KCM boost gives him enough arsenal to vaporize a continent.
</p><p>So, in conclusion, DMS Obito w SP chakra + Hashi cells > KCM Minato > Six Paths of Pain > DMS Obito
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<p>Prime Hiruzen is said to have had a large repertoire of jutsu under his belt. Thing is we don't know anything about his reaction feets or speed which is what he needs to get the drop on Minato. So, considering the available feats, I say Minato wins this.
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<p>Isshiki wins. To put this simply, Rinnegan Madara is weaker than current Sasuke. Isshiki basically made short work of both Sasuke and Naruto who, together, are on par with Juudara. Therefore, Isshiki is on the same tier as Juudara. Don't actually think he wins against Juudara though since his current body is rejecting him and he can't seem to last long.
</p><p>Sure, Rinnegan Madara does have Limbo and Isshiki's sensory abilities seem to be very weak, but that doesn't matter since he can actually nullify physical attacks and certain types of high-tier ninjutsu i.e Amaterasu. Moreover, his chakra-draining rods combined with his shrinking abilities seem to spell trouble and his physical parameters far exceed those of Rinnegan Madara. And, since this is his first battle showing so far, he's probably hiding more dangerous abilities.
</p><p>Anyone who can fight against SPSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke and actually cause damage is most likely stronger than all of the Naruto villain roster, barring Juudara and Kaguya.
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<p>@Squinty Yo! It has been a while indeed. And yes, I still recognize you from your profile picture.
</p><p>As for the outcome of this matchup, I think it's futile to focus on the intricacies of the Sharingan. The Sharingan is janky as fuck. At some point, Sasuke is able to perceive nano-sized bombs with his standard Sharingan. That would mean that Sasuke zoomed in on those impercetible bombs which is a feat that the Sharingan doesn't possess.
</p><p>Also, even if Itachi figured out the secret behind Pain and even if he managed to find Nagato's hiding spot somehow, do you guys actually think he would be able to dispatch all six bodies by himself? He has NOTHING on them. Amaterasu was repelled by Deva Path and can be absorbed by Preta. Rinnegan was shown to be immune to Tsukuyomi or any other visual genjutsu. Chibaku Tensei was shown to be a good answer to the Susanoo. Not to mention Pain's chakra dwarfs that of Itachi.
</p><p>Itachi can't win this, not because he's weak but because he's badly matched.
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<p>Itachi wins with low to non-existent difficulty.
</p><p>He would look like the underdog throughout the whole fight but then with his God-like intellect, he would figure out Pain's split into seven bodies and whip out his new jutsu called "Pain Real Body Detection" jutsu which would enable him to find Nagato and do him in with either Yasaka Magatama or Totsuka Blade. Don't even know why you plebs make such threads when we all know Godtachi solos the Naruverse with his standard Sharingan.
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<p>Yes, there are manga that are worse than Boruto by a mile but still what they're doing with it feels like a middle finger to all the criticism leveled at Naruto before. You thought Kaguya was too much? We got you fam, here's some more alien ninjas ON TOP of cyborg ninjas who could also be aliens. Oh what, you thought the other children in the previous generation were not fleshed out? Well, not only will we not have Boruto's generation appear for several chapters but when they do appear, they'll simply be used as exposition robots so you can gauge their feelings on the new protagonist.
</p><p>Hell, Ikemoto went even further by not even bothering to flesh out this generation's Team 7 which at least was done properly in Naruto.
</p><p>But even if we judge the manga as a standalone, it suffers from really bad storytelling. With Naruto, no matter how bad it got, at least the storytelling was contained. Every villain had their own personality and motives which shaped their respective arcs. Here, all of the villains (including Momoshiki) were used as tools to move the plot towards the endgame which I'm assuming is either a) Jigen possessing Kawaki's body (which I'm assuming is what that in medias res scene at the beginning is) or b) the Otsutsuki head which will serve as the Kaguya to Jigen's Madara i.e an unserdeveloped villain that just shows up so Kawaki and Boruto can team up and fight.
</p><p>Either way, I just hope this travesty ends. Apparently, they're only gonna do 112 chapters so I guess it's not that bad.
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<p>The amount of praise the manga has been receiving lately just goes to show what a low bar Boruto has set. Ikemoto had the luxury to dive more into a big, pre-existing world AND avoid making the same mistakes as his mentor (who had a much tighter work schedule than him) but all he did was take the non-sensical, shark-jumping parts of Naruto and ram them to eleven.
</p><p>At this point, I'm only following this manga out of some nostalgic obligation. I'm so fucking infuriated by it.
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<p>Quadraticequation wrote:
EMS Madara stomps Minato. To recap, EMS Madara went toe-toe with the First Hokage. Minato got stabbed in the stomach by Killer Bee.
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<p>Stop spreading misinformation. Minato didn't get stabbed. He finessed both, gave them a life lesson as a parting gift and then retreated. At best, the entire bout was Minato giving Ay a warning as to what would happen if the Cloud went after Kushina again. </p><p>As for this particular match-up though, EMS Madara wins with maybe medium to high difficulty. He has long-range jutsu with which he can yank Minato's special kunai out and prevent Minato from closing the gap. His chakra reserves enable him to maintain his Susanoo for long periods of time. Madara also seems to know how to fight speedsters like Minato as evident by him casually ridiculing Tobirama in the Fourth Ninja War, though his Sage sensing helped him a lot in that particular occasion. Minato does have some original tricks up his sleeve like Guiding Thunder with which he can warp Madara's defense away, but if we're going to be fair, we also have to factor Madara's Mangekyou abilities. Even though they never made an appearance in the series, they were most likely quite formidable as evidenced by the fact that he still managed to give Hashirama trouble even though the latter seemed to edge him out in almost every aspect. </p><p>The only version of Minato who could win this fight would be KCM Minato. </p>
<p>Stop spreading misinformation. Minato didn't get stabbed. He finessed both, gave them a life lesson as a parting gift and then retreated. At best, the entire bout was Minato giving Ay a warning as to what would happen if the Cloud went after Kushina again. </p><p>As for this particular match-up though, EMS Madara wins with maybe medium to high difficulty. He has long-range jutsu with which he can yank Minato's special kunai out and prevent Minato from closing the gap. His chakra reserves enable him to maintain his Susanoo for long periods of time. Madara also seems to know how to fight speedsters like Minato as evident by him casually ridiculing Tobirama in the Fourth Ninja War, though his Sage sensing helped him a lot in that particular occasion. Minato does have some original tricks up his sleeve like Guiding Thunder with which he can warp Madara's defense away, but if we're going to be fair, we also have to factor Madara's Mangekyou abilities. Even though they never made an appearance in the series, they were most likely quite formidable as evidenced by the fact that he still managed to give Hashirama trouble even though the latter seemed to edge him out in almost every aspect. </p><p>The only version of Minato who could win this fight would be KCM Minato. </p>
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It's telling of the state of this series that I was clenching my ass hoping Konohamaru wouldn't job against Jugo. He should be much stronger than they write him out to be.
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<p>Are you guys seriously arguing Nagato could actually take on a SPSM Naruto tier shinobi and win? Delta hasn't shown a versatile skillset on par with Nagato's yet, but she overwhelms Nagato in speed and strength alone.
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<p>FlatZone wrote:
Yata Mirror has never been broken, nor has it ever been stated to be able to be broken. Same composition?? No. You are spouting a lot, with no proof at all. Also It is said to reflect, not just block.
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<p>He's assuming Yata Mirror operates under the same principles as Truth Seeking Balls which could also change chakra natures to nullify attacks, but was impervious to Senjutsu. While that would make a lot of sense, it'd also be a little hesitant to jump to that conclusion. </p><p>On the other hand though, Yata Mirror is rather featless for all the hype it got. We saw it deflect Orochimaru's basic serpent attacks and paper bombs. After that, Itachi never used it for some reason. Using databook feats is pointless since they're pretty inconsistent and often clash with the manga canon, such as stating that you need both Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi to awaken the Susano'o or that no jutsu can stand against Amaterasu, in spite of Jiraiya sealing it in it's debut and Pain absorbing it with his Preta Path. Yes, it has never been broken because Itachi's never been shown to fight an opponent that's even close to BSM Naruto when it comes to destructive capabilities. A Sage-enhanced Bijuudama should do the trick against it as it does not have a chakra nature. Plus, that jutsu probably has more chakra than Itachi's entire stock. He shouldn't be able to withstand it. </p><p>As for Totsuka Blade, Base Naruto managed to keep up with fused Momoshiki (even though barely) who had blitzed the Four Kage prior to that. BSM Naruto's not gonna get caught off-guard by that thing. Even so, the blade's biggest feats are sealing Orochimaru and then later Nagato - it's not likely Itachi's Armored Susano'o could suddenly take in that amount of chakra. </p><p>One more thing, it was never stated Yata Mirror can reflect attacks. It was stated that it can deflect them. It's a big difference. </p>
<p>He's assuming Yata Mirror operates under the same principles as Truth Seeking Balls which could also change chakra natures to nullify attacks, but was impervious to Senjutsu. While that would make a lot of sense, it'd also be a little hesitant to jump to that conclusion. </p><p>On the other hand though, Yata Mirror is rather featless for all the hype it got. We saw it deflect Orochimaru's basic serpent attacks and paper bombs. After that, Itachi never used it for some reason. Using databook feats is pointless since they're pretty inconsistent and often clash with the manga canon, such as stating that you need both Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi to awaken the Susano'o or that no jutsu can stand against Amaterasu, in spite of Jiraiya sealing it in it's debut and Pain absorbing it with his Preta Path. Yes, it has never been broken because Itachi's never been shown to fight an opponent that's even close to BSM Naruto when it comes to destructive capabilities. A Sage-enhanced Bijuudama should do the trick against it as it does not have a chakra nature. Plus, that jutsu probably has more chakra than Itachi's entire stock. He shouldn't be able to withstand it. </p><p>As for Totsuka Blade, Base Naruto managed to keep up with fused Momoshiki (even though barely) who had blitzed the Four Kage prior to that. BSM Naruto's not gonna get caught off-guard by that thing. Even so, the blade's biggest feats are sealing Orochimaru and then later Nagato - it's not likely Itachi's Armored Susano'o could suddenly take in that amount of chakra. </p><p>One more thing, it was never stated Yata Mirror can reflect attacks. It was stated that it can deflect them. It's a big difference. </p>
(Edited by Mr. Grave)
<p>If Delta can go toe-to-toe with adult Naruto, even if the latter's holding back, she can basically solo two Akatsuki two man cells on her own. Not to mention Jigen was estimated by Kawaki to be on par with SPSM Naruto, while Kashin Koji is hyped up to be, at the very least, on Delta's level. We don't know much about the other living member but we are to assume he's pretty strong too.
</p><p>Now obviously I can't come up with a battle scenario since we barely know anything about Kara, but with all the hype surrounding him, it's safe to say Jigen himself could solo the Akatsuki with mid to high difficulty, provided Kawaki's powerscaling is correct. Shin's inclusion makes no difference - he was barely above base Sakura and would be the first to get his shit kicked in.
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<div class="quote"><i>
<p>PuziFuzi wrote:
Lol, people really think itachi can do something against naruto? I thought this whole "soloking itachi" thing was just a meme..
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<p>The meme was born due to fan perception of Itachi. He's basically the Chuck Norris of Narutoverse, if people actually used Chuck Norris' meme feats in serious discussions about his actual strength. </p>
<p>The meme was born due to fan perception of Itachi. He's basically the Chuck Norris of Narutoverse, if people actually used Chuck Norris' meme feats in serious discussions about his actual strength. </p>
(Edited by Mr. Grave)
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<p>AsianReaper wrote:
As far as Genjutsu, the series already showed that a sharper mind has a greater chance at seeing through Genjutsu immediately. I don't think any of Itachi's lower Genjutsu would affect Minato much at all; Tsukuyomi would most likely beat Minato, and Genjutsu Sharingan would probably hold him long enough to make an opening. But any other Genjutsu probably isn't enough. As to whether Itachi could establish eye contact, that's up for debate. Itachi is a masterful Shinobi when it comes to directing fights, but Minato is much keener and faster and more skilled than anyone Itachi's ever fought. So, it's debatable whether or not Itachi would catch him in a Genjutsu.
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<p>I think this part right here which was aptly put by AsianReaper perfectly explains the hype surrounding Itachi. He never fought someone of <i>his</i> caliber. And no, Kabuto doesn't count - Itachi stretched himself a new jutsu out of thin air just to beat him and the whole thing was too plot convenient. Yes, he got Orochimaru in a genjutsu; even then, Orochimaru nearly succeeded in breaking the spell but had his hand cut off by Itachi, who was in close proximity, at the last minute. It's also worth noting we never saw if the fight went any longer or if it simply ceased then and there, so we can't say Itachi certainly one-shot him as many claim he did. Either way, a shinobi like Minato, touted for his fast reflexes and genius intellect who was already established to be stronger than Orochimaru and less likely to mess around would easily break a standard genjutsu. So, Tsukuyomi's the only serious threat which Minato faces when it comes to Genjutsu. As for the rest of the Mangekyou repertoire, they can all be countered by Minato with ease and could only pose a threat if Itachi comes up with a creative use for them. Which brings up another point: </p><p>Itachi's intelligence seems more like an informed feat. No, I'm not trying to say he's not prodigious or intelligent, but the only intelligent tactic he's used was implanting the crow carrying Shisui's eye in Naruto, and even that carried some unforeseen consequences. All of his fights/scuffles, he won by being better than the opponent. Deidara? Had him in a genjutsu all along. Orochimaru? Same. Kabuto? Deus Ex Izanami. Minato, while not to the extent of Shikamaru, has shown to be much more versatile with his skillset. So, needless to say, this is not gonna be another run of the mill Itachi scuffle - he's gonna have to face an opponent which he can't just beat by being better than him. </p><p>Also, as a conclusion, I'd like to point out that I feel like Sage Mode is really being slept on in this discussion. Yes, Minato can't maintain it for long, but he can tap into it pretty fast and he can keep it up enough to conjure a Rasengan. Since he's able to close a long distance with his Shunshin and FTG, it wouldn't be very difficult for him to land a direct hit on Itachi with his eyes closed to prevent Tsukuyomi, provided his Susanoo is not active at the time. </p>
<p>I think this part right here which was aptly put by AsianReaper perfectly explains the hype surrounding Itachi. He never fought someone of <i>his</i> caliber. And no, Kabuto doesn't count - Itachi stretched himself a new jutsu out of thin air just to beat him and the whole thing was too plot convenient. Yes, he got Orochimaru in a genjutsu; even then, Orochimaru nearly succeeded in breaking the spell but had his hand cut off by Itachi, who was in close proximity, at the last minute. It's also worth noting we never saw if the fight went any longer or if it simply ceased then and there, so we can't say Itachi certainly one-shot him as many claim he did. Either way, a shinobi like Minato, touted for his fast reflexes and genius intellect who was already established to be stronger than Orochimaru and less likely to mess around would easily break a standard genjutsu. So, Tsukuyomi's the only serious threat which Minato faces when it comes to Genjutsu. As for the rest of the Mangekyou repertoire, they can all be countered by Minato with ease and could only pose a threat if Itachi comes up with a creative use for them. Which brings up another point: </p><p>Itachi's intelligence seems more like an informed feat. No, I'm not trying to say he's not prodigious or intelligent, but the only intelligent tactic he's used was implanting the crow carrying Shisui's eye in Naruto, and even that carried some unforeseen consequences. All of his fights/scuffles, he won by being better than the opponent. Deidara? Had him in a genjutsu all along. Orochimaru? Same. Kabuto? Deus Ex Izanami. Minato, while not to the extent of Shikamaru, has shown to be much more versatile with his skillset. So, needless to say, this is not gonna be another run of the mill Itachi scuffle - he's gonna have to face an opponent which he can't just beat by being better than him. </p><p>Also, as a conclusion, I'd like to point out that I feel like Sage Mode is really being slept on in this discussion. Yes, Minato can't maintain it for long, but he can tap into it pretty fast and he can keep it up enough to conjure a Rasengan. Since he's able to close a long distance with his Shunshin and FTG, it wouldn't be very difficult for him to land a direct hit on Itachi with his eyes closed to prevent Tsukuyomi, provided his Susanoo is not active at the time. </p>
(Edited by Mr. Grave)