@Sy6up He knows approximately when the attack lands.
Yes, so Madara knows where the attack comes from based on where Amaterasu is on him.
Then what did you mean? And yes, if he sense Sasuke without eyes or Sage Mode, it's just regular Shinobi sensing.
Based on what?
The Sharingan has precog and it lets him track trajectory. Without being able to track anything, he couldn't react.
It doesn't drain a lot, but in a fight against Madara they have to use their chakra efficiently.
What statement? Madara saying he let her hit his clone? You're wondering if he meant to do that when immediately after he sprung the trap that stabbed her through the stomach?
No he hasn't. It always shows Itachi needing to shut his eyes, let it bleed, then open it. Sasuke multiple times just has it appear immediately, and with EMS it's far faster with no build up (besides ones TTJs and Sage Mode Users can sense).
No, he was looking at Ay's fist when he thought that, so he was obviously refering to either Ay's jutsu or both of theirs. And at that point he did not use Susanoo against her attack, he just dodged.
Where's my proof that the Preta Path absorbs Ninjutsu and chakra? It's literally what it does.
You didn't give proof to your opinion.
Sasuke can catch Naruto off guard with Ameno from behind if Naruto is preoccupied with another attack, but other than that no he cannot blitz Naruto
@Sy6up Not nearly as fast as Naruto lol. Naruto got fast enough to be able to land blows on Kaguya from sheer speed, while Sasuke wasn't able to with a surprise attack AND Ameno aiding him
@Sy6up I was talking about VOTE2 Naruto and beyond. Basically, rivals can have similar speed, but their rivalry proves it's not always the case since Naruto got way faster as they kept progressing
@The Chicken Sin of Stupidity· we know Tsukuyomi isn't very effective against Mangekyo SHaringan wielders, much less EMS users. How do we know?
Itachi chose to try to seal Amaterasu to incapacitate who he thought was Madara, not Tsukuyomi. We know at the very least it usually can put people in a coma that only Tsunade, the best healer of the series, was able to heal the victim from.
Itachi is fast, but nowhere does anything state Madara is slow. In fact, Madara notes that his and Sasuke's Sharingan are unique in that they give more fluidity to their movement than other Sharingan.
Madara was at war at age 5 lol
You have no evidence whatsoever his speeds would be greater
Two people being rivals does not mean their speed is similar. Naruto and Sasuke are rivals, yet we know Naruto is capable of far faster speeds than Sasuke is.
Madara has plenty of options, and plenty of jutsu that just straight up overpower Itachi's defenses.
Madara is also very quick to praise people who deserve it, and he'd easily see Itachi is someone he'd fight seriously.
Itachi doesn't have the chakra to use Shadow Clones effectively, at least not very many of them.
Madara isn't a trickster? Even against the 5 Kage, who he absolutely toyed with, he used a Bunshin feint to stab Tsunade through the stomach.
Madara would easily be able to track Itachi's attempts to switch out. Hell, even Kakashi was able to react to both Itachi's Ninjutsu AND his clone feints, saving Kurenai from an exploding one. He was able to do well enough that Itachi decided he needed to use Tsukuyomi to be sure to beat him. And Itachi doesn't use Tsukuyomi lightly, since it drives him closer to blindness and takes a huge chunk of chakra.
Majestic Flame Destroyer would kill Itachi if he didn't either put up Susanoo or straight up run lol. It was so powerful that it was on par with several Water Release jutsu put together. With a type disadvantage.
His Susanoo, whichever he chooses, is very useful because he can use it however long he wants. Itachi cannot, since he's only got the Mangekyo. And the Yata Mirror can be overpowered with just sheer power. We see this because Itachi's Susanoo is abliterated by Karin.
Perfect Susanoo could just shift its weight and accidentally crush Itachi lol.
Speed does not mean better than Susanoo. Isshiki was just simply much more powerful. If speed was all it took to beat Susanoo than the 4th Raikage would been able to get to Madara easily. Even Sasuke's ribcage was able to defend against just speed.
@Sy6up Yeah, it's proof that "light" and "ignite" are synonyms
@Sy6up You're the only one being confused by "light." I only said wherever Amatersu lights indicates the direction of Sasuke, which is true. Wherever it ignites, catches fire, whatever you wanna call, it, they mean the same thing. No one claimed they produced light.
What obviously didn't happen?
Noticing his presence without eyes or Sage Mode means he just sensed him normally
It doesn't have to be classified as one, if it teleports you immediately to a destination regardless of anything in between then it's a space-time tech.
Tobirama was failing to kill Izuna until he used FTG slash, which means that specifically FTG, the space-time Ninjutsu, let him land it. Since there's no initial movement to track.
A strategy that drained one of their most powerful Ninjutsu wielders for the sake of speeding up a guy that you claim already could blitz Madara?
Yeah. When they didn't know it was his clone. And he then stabbed her with Susanoo. He literally let her do it to land his own attack.
Not only was he noted better at its usage, which already implies faster speed, he is SHOWN to use it faster. With every time Itachi used it, it showed his considerable need for build up before release. With Sasuke, many times the flames would just appear immediately as needed, such as when he used it for defense against Ay.
Not only that, he's obviously faster with EMS, and that is the version who hit Madara when he didn't have eyes or Sage Mode.
He was referring to Mei's jutsu while specifically looking at Ay? Where's your evidence of that? And Ay is using Ninjtaijutsu, meaning Madara can suck his Lightning cloak off, slowing him down. If he wanted. WHich he didn't care to do.
Idk if you ever read the entirety of my replies, but I said their attacks *at that point* were what he considered not even worth absorbing. Ohnoki's Dust Release was later.
Madara, as an Edo Tensei, has a body that is prone to being burst apart into paper, like every other Edo Tensei. Like how Tsunade punched a hole in his clone, resulting in it bursting into the paper-like substance. Ay was not even capable of damaging him at all; Madara just blocked the attack.
That's not what happened. You asked my opinion, which I did not give. Then you made a claim based on YOUR opinion. But YOU still need to prove your opinion, I don't need to disprove it. If your argument is based off a claim you make, you're supposed to back it up.
So no, you can't force me into agreement based on trying to get me to agree to a premise to benefit your argument by using leading questions under the guise of a "steelman." If I gave you an opinion, and you argued against it, then that's a steelman. This is just you making claims with no evidence.
Also are you sure you looked up the definition of "ignite?"
@Sy6up The point is, lighting something on fire means starting a fire and has nothing to do with the light it produces.
I don't need to prove that Amaterasu has light since I never even claimed that.
Amaterasu will only show up on the side that Sasuke can see, so madara immediately knew his general direction when Amaterasu was on him.
Because he didn't notice Sasuke until Sasuke cast Amaterasu, THEN he turned to him.
That's not how that works, you're claiming he mistaked it for something meaning you have to prove it. It has no basis for even being a mistake, since high-speed movement is literally called teleportation all the time in the Narutoverse.
Since the transport technique is a space-time jutsu, Tsunade was able to land her attack since her movement there wasn't able to be tracked. She appeared in the perfect place to strike. It's the same reason Izuna and Tobirama were essentially matched, but Izuna couldn't react to Tobirama's FTG slice; with no movement to track, it becomes much harder to read an attack if it's already on you.
He literally didn't and I showed you how it wasn't a blitz. And yes, it was Ohnoki's idea, but considering the Raikage's pride and overall just strategy in general, he wouldn't have Ohnoki waste chakra on speeding him up if he could just blitz Madara anyways. Especially since Ohnoki had one of their most powerful jutsu, DUst Release techs.
Then what were you referring to then?
So? Sasuke is faster at casting Amaterasu than Itachi is. Even before EMS, he's noted to be better at it than Itachi. And the Raikage dodged Ameterasu from him. In turn, Madara has blocked any attack that the Raikage attempted before he got Ohnoki's boost. Meaning he can react to things of that speed. Meaning Susanoo just blocks Amaterasu.
He literally was saying during that fight that their jutsu wasn't even worth absorbing, so he obviously didn't consider their jutsu at that point to be worth blocking with Susanoo. An arm is all he needed. And considering the 4th didn't even break his paper body in that instance, he seemed to make the right call that Susanoo was unecessary.
Yes I did, I'll provide a screenshot in a sec.
Since you seem to be misunderstanding the term "light," see the second definition for your own reference
@Sy6up There's a reason you "light" something on fire. It's synonymous with "ignite" in this case. Surprised I have to explain that to you. Where I'm going with that is Madara can tell the general direction of Sasuke based on where Amaterasu is on him, since it will only appear on the side Sasuke can see.
That... is?? Lol you're trying to say "oh how did he sense him after but not before Sasuke came up" and I just said because he wasn't trying to before but once he knew the general direction he was able to find him.
Again, Body Flicker is often called teleportation in the Narutoverse, so he didn't "mistake it" for teleportation, that's just another name for high speed movement in the series.
Raikage definitely didn't blitz him. We see him see the fist coming and he clearly blocked the attack. Not a blitz.
The transfer technique in no way helps your argument since that is a space-time ninjutsu. It actually teleports, and doesn't have to do with speed. Which means Tsunade landed the hit because the Transfer technique, not because she was fast.
No he wouldn't be fast enough, because he never did it without Ohnoki. If he could do it without Ohnoki he wouldn't have Ohnoki waste chakra trying to make him lighter.
Because it was a clone that he specifically let get hit to stab her with Susanoo? He was literally just fine. Even Ohnoki's Jinton only hit him because he let it hit him, which he states.
Sasuke is faster with Amaterasu because he has the EMS, which means no eye strain when trying to build up the technique.
Why would him moving his arm scale to the speed at which he could move? Hm. In all seriousness, the point is he doesn't need as fast as a footspeed. He just needs the reactions to deal with attacks at that speed, which he does. And he can react by casting Susanoo.
That's because you didn't make a steelman, which I clarified.
Sy6up thinks Itachi would beat EMS Madara
He cites that Madara was hit by Amaterasu so Itachi could hit him with Amatersu. I disagree since
A) Sasuke was the one who hit Madara and Sasuke is faster with Amaterasu
B) The Raikage is fast enough to avoid it from Sasuke, and since Madara has reacted to the Raikage along with the rest of the 5 Kage he should be able to avoid it from Itachi
C) when Madara was hit by Sasuke's Amaterasu he didn't have eyes or Sage Mode, meaning he wouldn't have been able to react as well since he didn't have anything to see it coming
Sy6up's counters so far
He thinks the Raikage blitzed Madara, which didn't happen. He did manage a good hit when he was sped up by Ohnoki though. In any case, it was still 5v1, meaning his attention was divided anyways
He thinks he should be able to react to Amaterasu without eyes just as fast as he'd be able to with eyes. For some reason.
He thinks that Itachi sealing Amaterasu into Sasuke's eye and catching Obito by surprise with it means that he'd be fast enough to catch Madara in combat with it.
And that's a very condensed version. There's probably a few points on both sides that I forgot but those are the ones I remember
@Sy6up Are you just being obtuse for the sake of it? It lights, as in "ignites." You know, how fire starts. And Amaterasu can only start within the user's field of vision, which means Madara can figure out the general direction of the castor based on where Amaterasu started on him.
He didn't, that's the point. Tobirama and Hashirama were having a conversation, while Madara eavesdropped. Tobirama is a sensor. When Madara left, Hashirama barely noticed, and asked Tobirama if he did, but Tobirama just replied that he wasn't moulding chakra at the time. Likewise, Kurama had to tell Minato to use his sensory skills to figure out what happened to Naruto. Sensing is not automatic, it's active.
He just cast sensing in the general direction of where the fire came from and noticed Sasuke.
He never blitzed him lol, provide a chapter if he did. And no one mistakes it for teleportation, the Body Flicker Technique is just called Teleportation, which is literally just high-speed movement. Which is basically what the Raikage is doing.
The Raikage didn't even hit Madara with the transfer technique, Tsunade did. So it was obviously an effect of the transfer technique and not a huge showing of overall speed.
How does it not matter if Ohnoki sped him up? The 4th Raikage tried to hit him but Madara reacted and blocked in time, then the 4th tried again when sped up by Ohnoki and managed to strike from behind. Meaning that the 4th isn't fast enough on his own to blitz Madara, but when he's sped up by Ohnoki he is fast enough.
Lol yes, he literally reacted just fine to everyone
@Sy6up Uhhhhhhhh he can tell because Amaterasu only lights on the side that the user can see? lmao
I don't have to pick one, because both happened. He didn't sense him comin but when he got hit, he specifically tried to sense in that direction. Similar to how Tobirama didn't detect Madara despite being a sensor; you actually have to actively try to sense.
Lmao I just went and reread the whole fight. He didn't blitz Madara on his own even once. The first rush he got close, but Madara noticed in time and he blocked it. Then once he managed to get behind Madara and get a hit in (though Madara had Susanoo active), but that was when Ohnoki was already speeding him up. After that, nothing.
So yeah, Madara was reacting just fine to the Raikage, especially since it was 5v1.
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@Sy6up Again, for the context of a battle what you're saying does not matter. If he has a way to act on an attack more quickly than before, that means he has faster reactions for the context of a fight. Whatever you believe about the fine details is whatever. It has no bearing on the fight.
He looks up at Sasuke after getting hit yeah and was like oh who did that and sensed where it came from. He just didn't hear or sense him coming before that, because he had a few enemies on the ground lol.
Yes he was. He reacted exceptionally well considering he was up against not JUST the Raikage. And got the drop on him too. Not only that, during the fight Ohnoki specifically made Ay even faster than before.
@Sy6up Hello do you read. For the intents and purposes of a battle, his reaction speed changes. I'm not here to argue about how fast they can react to stimuli because that's irrelevant. What is relevant is how fast they can react to and avoid/block/counter an attack, which is directly tied to being able to perceive the attack more quickly.
No it doesn't lol. The point of that whole tangent was I was telling you he got only hit by Amaterasu because he had no eyes to see Sasuke coming and no Sage Mode to sense an attack coming. He couldn't even hear Sasuke's approach cus Sasuke flew from above. In a regular fight where he has his eyes, he'd be just fine reacting to attacks
@Sy6up Again, in the context of a battle, his reaction speed is lower without eyes or sage mode since he can't react to attacks as quickly as he could if he had those extra perceptions
Sensing the general direction of things is very different than Sage Mode and having eyes in general. Of course Shinobi can to some capacity fight with their eyes closed, but having eyes and/or Sage Mode will always help you react more quickly