@AsianReaper So this is basically saying the same thing again. Hagoromo and Hamura fought a complete Ten-Tails. Their was no leftovers of tailed-beast chakra in other jinchurikis, nothing. It was complete. This is why it was so powerful. But you forgot to mention that Hagoromo was the first Ten-Tails Jinchuriki, not Obito. But then, Hagoromo split its chakra into 9 separate Tailed-Beasts, creating what we call the Tailed-Beasts.
Yes, Sasuke and Naruto fought the Ten-Tails, but leftovers of the Hachibi and Kyuubi remained. And not to forget to mention that Kaguya invented the Ten-Tails for the purpose to reclaim the chakra that "belonged to her". It was not for fighting. So of course it got defeated. I mean, the other tails would have made a better jinchuriki.
Hint is an overstatement. I'm not overestimating Kaguya's sons. But it'll take a lot more than what they have to be equal to the league of their sons.
Yes, he got defeated, but he fought no?
So what? Don't forget about Hashirama and the others too. He thought about them fighting him, and maybe predicted the teamwork of them and Team 7 would be far too much for him.
It's okay, but they should pay more attention to the anime.
@RandomAir BGM Yes Naruto and Sasuke fought a weaker Ten Tails but it's still a Ten Tails, and this was when they were 17.
I didn't forget to mention that Hagoromo was the first Jinjuuriki of the Ten Tails. It wasn't relevant, since he fought Kaguya before he was Jinjuuriki so his feats with the Ten Tails are irrelevant.
If they can fight any sort of Ten Tails together (and for portions of the fight it was only them fighting) and overpower its constructs, that means they aren't ridiculously weaker than Hagoromo. They most certainly are weaker and if they fought Hagoromo at that time they'd definitely lose, but they were at a point in their abilities where they could actually fight him.
"Fought" is an overstatement. He couldn't trade blows with Juubito like Naruto and Sasuke were doing.
Hashirama was pinned down, Tobirama was pinned down, I don't know if Hiruzen had regenerated yet but he was also occupied with Tobi, Minato had no arms. and had teleported away by that time. So no, he ran from Naruto and Sasuke, since Sakura showed that she couldn't do anything to him due to Limbo and Kakashi simply didn't have the firepower to pose a threat to a Ten Tails Jinjuuriki.
@Asian Reaper I could possibly take over 30 replies answering your discussions. But this entire Naruto and Sasuke and Hagoromo Hamura comparison is not revelant to the question of this thread at all. Questions as to how Naruto and Sasuke got stronger in Boruto, might linger. We're just saying they got stronger. But how? Training? Missions? Fights? It's unexplained. So someone can say they even got weaker in Boruto. There's only one thing that can prove Naruto became stronger than his Shippuden self: The Last. But people still say that the Boruto era Naruto is stronger than the Last Naruto. But why? You can assume the answer.
I can't reiterate how important it is to know the logic behind Kaguya and her family. Kaguya was a forced creation in the Naruto universe. She was potentially underdeveloped in the series, which is why I already said she should return in Boruto, not only to show her true power and end threads like this, but to give her more character development. Like they should make Kawaki die like Madara, and put Kaguya as Boruto's final antagonist, like in Naruto: Shippuden.
So instead of explaining to me how strong Naruto and Sasuke from Shippuden are, why not give me your final conclusion of "Momoshiki vs Kaguya"? And your explanations?
@RandomAir BGM You realize that I'm explaining Naruto and Sasuke's strength because you yourself used them as a way to gauge how powerful Kaguya is and how powerful Momshiki is? You did it from your very first post. The error is that you assumed that Naruto and Sasuke couldn't defeat Kaguya on their own before so now they must not be able to as adults. And you used this assumption to say that since Naruto and Sasuke beat Momshiki, Momshiki is weaker than Kaguya.
But that's an error because you're assuming neither Sasuke nor Naruto grew in power at all. Even in the Last, Naruto could create, throw, and guide a Rasenshuriken with one hand, in BASE. No Sage Mode, no SPSM, no cloak, no anything. That alone implies his power and skill grew tremendously.So his other power ups make him stronger than before because those power ups are powering up a higher base version of him.
Also, Sasuke has been out on a mission for the majority of the aftermath of the war. He's gone for years at a time on missions. And yet he still is considered Naruto's equal, not higher. So Naruto is growing in power as well, whatever that method may be. In fact, in Boruto EP 65 it's implied that they've sparred more, since Naruto mentions that they have a running tally of their bouts.
Now why is this important and why shouldn't we ignore the fact that A) they aren't as weak as you imply before their Six Paths power up and B) They grew in power from Shippuden to Boruto?
Because your argument is that Naruto and Sasuke couldn't beat Kaguya, but could beat Momshiki. But they were much stronger against Momshiki so that kind of logic is incorrect.
I'm not going to touch on the fact that you want Kaguya as the final antagonist again. Let's just say I disagree and leave it at that.
@AsianReaper I only wanted to use Naruto and Sasuke as an unimportant back-up to my answer. But you made misinterpretations with my details and turned them into a big thing. So putting it politely, you started this. Like, you misinterpretated it when I was questioning the way Sasuke and Naruto grew stronger in Boruto. Read my replies carefully next time. With deepest regret, I don't have time to explain and try to specify what I say.
You disagree? Great! But to put it briefly, the least you can do now is actually explain why. And since Momoshiki lost to Naruto and Sasuke, I think including them would be unnecessary in your explanation. Give back-up to the experience, omnipotence, and legend that Momoshiki lacks.
And by the way, I'm not a crazy Kaguya fan. In fact, I like Momoshiki better than her, he has more redeeming qualities. But it's the way they depict her in the real thing that has got people into this.
RandomAir BGM wrote: The main reason why Kaguya is stronger than Momoshiki, is because Sasuke and Naruto, who both have half the power of Hagoromo, fought Momoshiki (with Kinshiki) and clearly battered him.
Unimportant back up? It was your main reason.
I already explained why I disagree.
AsianReaper wrote: @RandomAir BGM
Because your argument is that Naruto and Sasuke couldn't beat Kaguya, but could beat Momshiki. But they were much stronger against Momshiki so that kind of logic is incorrect.
That's not quite the answer I am looking for. Don't use my answers to answer my questions. You'll have to give me more proof and reason why you think Momoshiki is stronger than Kaguya. You don't know how much I'd like to know why. That would really answer a lot of questions.
And by the way, my next post will be my last. So I hope that we are okay after we finish these discussions okay?
I didn't use your answer to answer your question, I was pointing out that it wasn't unimportant back up like you claimed, it was what your argument hinged upon.
I never even said Momshiki was stronger. I was pointing out that the way you were justifying that Kaguya was stronger didn't add up. Your evidence isn't really evidence, since you're using 2 different versions of Naruto and Sasuke as the same measuring stick for Kaguya and Momshiki.
The reason I pointed these flaws out wasn't because I'm dead set on Momshiki being stronger. I'm trying to see if you have an argument that makes more sense than the one you presented.
Too bad though, seems you don't. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise though.
Why didn't you ask in the first place then? I didn't expect to be taking it this far to explain. But before I finish, I have to.
You see, I don't need those 2 to explain why Kaguya is stronger. In fact, it it obvious.
Kaguya has immortality; Momoshiki doesn't.
Kaguya has paralysis jutsu to absorb chakra; Momoshiki over-relied on absorbing chakra and sending it back, which led to his downfall like Hiruko from the Will of Fire movie.
Kaguya has Kimimaro's bone kekkei genkai. She can manipulate her bones to attack, and uses the Ash Bone Killer to instantly kill her opponent; Momoshiki doesn't.
Kaguya has the most powerful Kekkei Mora ever, she has the Vacuum fists to destroy Jinchuriki chakra arms and Susanoo bodies; Momoshiki had to use his dojutsu and Taijutsu to fight, and Taijutsu was never a good idea with Naruto, who has the Kyuubi to catch you, and Sasuke, who's eyes can see your every move.
Kaguya has everything Momoshiki has; Byakugan, Rinne Sharingan, Transformation, and Ninjutsu Mastery. Except that she is far more experienced in all of this.
Kaguya can use all her victims and prisoners' chakra to create planetary-level destruction, like she used the victims trapped in her Deep Forest Emergence to create the Expansive Truthseeker Orb. All Momoshiki can do is absorb other's chakra with his hands' Rinnegan.
So in the end, these are other reasons why Kaguya is stronger than Momoshiki. And I think these should suffice. If they don't then tell me why.
@RandomAir BGM I pointed out that the main point to your original argument was flawed, and you didn't take that as either fix/explain the current argument or present a valid one? I had to specifically ask that? Okay, I'll be more specific next time.
Immortality doesn't really imply strength. If they took one Tailed Beast, her chakra wouldn't be able to form. Since all the Tailed Beasts are free now and separate, she's effectively dead right now.
She has paralysis jutsu and ability to absorb chakra. She used the paralysis jutsu once and then over relied on dimension hopping and her bone attack.
Momoshiki did rely on his absorbtion, but he didn't let it handicap him. In fact, Momshiki fought Naruto and Sasuke largely without absorbtion and he still was able to wound Sasuke, break out of Chibaku Tensei, and force Naruto and Sasuke to combine their Susanoo and Kurama Avatar in order to beat him. Even after that, Naruto acknowledged that he wasn't done yet. Plus even before he absorbed jutsu from the one guy who developed Kote, he still had more chakra pills.
And keep in mind that if it was only Naruto, Sasuke, and the 5 Kage who fought Momshiki, they almost lost. They were lucky that Boruto was on the sidelines not participating until they all were nearly done for.
Also, Kaguya doesn't have Kimimaro's bone Kekkei Genkai. If anything it's the other way around. Besides, considering Momshiki's firepower, he has pretty good oneshots as well.
Kaguya's Expansive Truth Seeker Orb was only ever seen attempted in one of her own dimensions, and we don't know how big that dimension was. Kakashi only noted that if they used Kamui to escape, they couldn't come back. My guess is the reason they wouldn't just leave her there is because she had to be sealed so they could undo Infinite Tsukuyomi and also so the Tailed Beasts would be free.
Momshiki's golem was enough to completely overpower Kurama, so it most likely was strong enough to completely overpower Susanoo as well. And again, he used Taijutsu to fight them but he also used other techs to eventually wound Sasuke, forcing Naruto to bring out his Kurama Avatar, which was promptly overpowered by Momshiki's golem.
Honestly considering we've never seen a limit to Momshiki's ability to absorb Ninjutsu, her Ash Killing Bone wan probably be absorbed. An argument can even be made for him absorbing the Expansive Truth Seeker Orb. And once he's done that, he can just fire it back; you forget he doesn't just absorb. He fires back at more strength than the original technique.