Forum:Databook Jutsu

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If portions (or, sometimes, all) of a jutsu's article is going to be taken word-for-word from the jutsu's databook entry, I think it's important that the information be presented as such. Doing so would:

Let readers know why a particular paragraph sounds different from the rest of the wiki.
Let editors know that a particular paragraph should not be modified beyond adding links where appropriate.
Solve what is potentially plagiarism in jutsu articles as they are now.

To use Kamui as an example:

Kamui without quote
Kakashi's original dōjutsu, released from the Mangekyō Sharingan, that allows one to transfer anything to another dimension. If one spends a lot of time and trains one's chakra over and over again, this technique can be invoked. The target is enveloped with a barrier space and the user concentrates their mind to what they gaze at. The target can struggle helplessly, but against this technique no defence is possible. When the technique is invoked, the space at the centre of the barrier is distorted and the target inside the barrier is drawn in completely. The location and size of the barrier can be specified at will. It is a dreadful technique that, with skilled use and enough chakra, can even pull an entire human being into another dimension. The Mangekyō Sharingan is a dōjutsu that, with continuous usage, burdens the user with the loss of their eyesight. Since this is the source of Kamui, using it in rapid succession puts Kakashi's body at risk as well. As his Sharingan was transplanted, usage of this technique poses an even greater risk to Kakashi. Kakashi is able to use this technique up to at least three times in a given day, even when starting at full strength. At first Kakashi's aim and control over the size of the barrier was imperfect. Over time his aim and control improved, as he was able to accurately warp away small and fast moving objects, such as a nail. Kakashi is even able to consecutively warp away two fast-moving arrows.

Kamui with quote

“	Kakashi's original dōjutsu, released from the Mangekyō Sharingan, that allows one to transfer anything to another dimension. If one spends a lot of time and trains one's chakra over and over again, this technique can be invoked. The target is enveloped with a barrier space and the user concentrates their mind to what they gaze at. The target can struggle helplessly, but against this technique no defence is possible. When the technique is invoked, the space at the centre of the barrier is distorted and the target inside the barrier is drawn in completely. The location and size of the barrier can be specified at will. It is a dreadful technique that, with skilled use and enough chakra, can even pull an entire human being into another dimension. The Mangekyō Sharingan is a dōjutsu that, with continuous usage, burdens the user with the loss of their eyesight. Since this is the source of Kamui, using it in rapid succession puts Kakashi's body at risk as well. As his Sharingan was transplanted, usage of this technique poses an even greater risk to Kakashi.	”
—Third Databook

Kakashi is able to use this technique up to at least three times in a given day, even when starting at full strength. At first Kakashi's aim and control over the size of the barrier was imperfect. Over time his aim and control improved, as he was able to accurately warp away small and fast moving objects, such as a nail. Kakashi is even able to consecutively warp away two fast-moving arrows.

Much clearer with a quote, right?

The only potential issue with using {{quote}} is that I don't think it gets along well with the infobox, which means some other way of identifying quotes would need to be found. There's also a question of how to handle image captions, but that's small potatoes. This should be no more complicated than looking at the translations ShounenSuki has done, comparing them to the wiki's articles, and implementing the quote-treatment where the two match. Comments/concerns? 72.192.156.86 (talk) 22:01, December 13, 2011 (UTC)

I believe that's why we have references but if people want to start doing that then sure. Joshbl56 22:06, December 13, 2011 (UTC)

So, as an IP, my suggestion is ignored and my edits are reverted. I'd like to say I'm surprised, but I'm really not. I'll also point out that I added several references, which active editors have made little progress with. ~Snapper T o 01:23, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

No, your suggestion was not ignore, I answered. As for the edits, you should have made one edit and see what people thought, not go through and keep making them as if you were trying to troll. Joshbl56 01:28, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

I asked, waited a few days, ended up with 1 yea, 0 nay. If someone thought it was a bad idea they should have said so.

And why do I need to make one sample edit? I gave a sample edit in my original suggestion. ~Snapper T o 01:33, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

If only one person answer, then try asking people on their talk page to join, and if they don't then they do not want to change anything. Since no one tried making the changes then no one wanted to put them as quotes. Joshbl56 01:35, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

How does lack of assent translate to dissent? I was under the impression that: assent = assent; dissent = dissent; lack of a response = lack of an interest one way or the other. ~Snapper T o 01:41, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Though I'm not too sure what's up with you nowadays- you really are true to your moniker. However, I will say that you of all people should know that if you want something to be noticed on this wikia, you have to make it get noticed by others. With regards to whether or not we should use quotes, I really don't see an issue with it, but at the same time I don't really care if they're used. Most of the time people don't rewrite the articles but tend to drop in titbits that they deem are relevant and I fear that with quoting that won't be allowed any more. But either is fine with me I suppose. Possibly indicating otherwise that it's a direct quote might be fine as well? Hidden messages are getting popular lately.--Cerez₃₆₅™ 01:42, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

I believe jutsu articles are fine as they are now. I think its unnecessary because we can simply use references to show where they come from.--Deva 27 01:44, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

I thought originally the anon intended to replace the article text with the exact quote, which i would be against since then no one could update it to reflect new information. But adding the databook translation to the top in quotes, seperate from the rest of the article only adds positively to it. — SimAnt 01:46, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

(editconflictx100!) I would also like to say that I just saw some of the articles that were changed to the quote format and, they look really kewl >.> I might be more on the side of using it now. Though I'm not too sure how it'd look it wikia skin as opposed to Monaco. I'm assuming the latter would look better because of the page width. Also, what if there are images in the article itself- what would be done about that?--Cerez₃₆₅™

01:48, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

I will admit that not quoting directly makes the information a bit more accessible, but these are very meaty excerpts to use and only acknowledge through some floating reference at the end of the article.

As an IP, I'm forced to use the Wikia skin, and it doesn't look so bad. It's scrunchy, sure, but so is everything in Wikia.

I'm not suggesting that databook quotes be used whenever available. Just that, if the databook is going to be quoted, it might as well be put in quotes. Articles that are long enough to have multiple images don't usually make such extensive use of databook material so they shouldn't be a problem. ~Snapper T o 01:57, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Just to give an idea of how common (or uncommon) use of databook information is, I made a list of all the articles that were noticeably similar to ShounenSuki's translations. To summarize: the first databook has 86 jutsu entries, of which 15 are used by the wiki; the second databook has 108 jutsu entries, of which 17 are used by the wiki; the third databook has 115 jutsu entries, of which 96 are used by the wiki.

Some of these I could be wrong about, and the databook just happens to say more-or-less the same thing as what observation produces. Some of these actually use a reference, so a quote is not required beyond a desire to be consistent (assuming the quote-treatment is desirable). Some of these make very negligible use of databook information when compared to user-submitted content, so a quote would probably not be a good idea.

At the very least, the list may give an idea of what articles don't use databook information and thus which may have room for improvement. I only looked at articles for jutsu that ShounenSuki has translated so I suppose it's possible that articles of unlisted jutsu are based on the work of other translators, but I personally doubt it. ~Snapper T o 03:29, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

And TheUltimate3 is posting in a thread he has not read. Will get back to you around next Monday (Final Exams yay!)--TheUltimate3 ~Keeper of Lore~ 04:05, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

If we are going to use this, I think we should just use the meat of the description (at least for the top quote) from the databooks. For Kamui we could just use:

“	Kakashi's original dōjutsu, released from the Mangekyō Sharingan, that allows one to transfer anything to another dimension. If one spends a lot of time and trains one's chakra over and over again, this technique can be invoked. The target is enveloped with a barrier space and the user concentrates their mind to what they gaze at. The target can struggle helplessly, but against this technique no defence is possible. When the technique is invoked, the space at the centre of the barrier is distorted and the target inside the barrier is drawn in completely. The location and size of the barrier can be specified at will. It is a dreadful technique that, with skilled use and enough chakra, can even pull an entire human being into another dimension.	”
—Third Databook

Or something like that since it still gives us room to put info but still tells how the technique works. Also, would we do something with the character's that are in the databooks? (Just in case you guys and gals already came up with a decision, I have to tell you I just sort of skimmed over most of the conversation '^.^. Also, sorry for being rude earlier, Snapper2) Joshbl56 10:17, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

I really think this could work, with any additional info going at the bottom of the article but we do need to hear more from the other members.--Cerez₃₆₅™

11:54, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Well, I don't know if it just that I'm accustomed to the clasic way of presenting things, but I am completely against copy-paste of databook entries. Most of them use a language that, while it may be cool and stuff for databooks, it is not so much for an impartial, data gathering wikia. I've always been against using databook text literally for technique entries. I know that, as a minor editor my opinion isn't quite on par with the fat cats here, but I just wanted to explain myself.--Kind-Hearted-One (talk) 16:11, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

I admit not to have read everything in this page, but I mirror a bit of Kind-Hearted-One's opinion in that the language used in the databooks doesn't feel suited the wiki, in my opinion. And doing that would make it a strange having to add updated information regarding something that is in the quote in a different paragraph or something like that. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:41, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

I dislike how they're worded personally. Just seem too odd and dissimilar to how the rest of the wiki is written. =/ Skitts (talk) 22:53, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the above on this, in particular with Omnibender's remarks in regards to the addition of updated information, especially when these can range from simple amendments or, on the rare occasion, complete revisions. I don't know exactly why, but I get the feeling that the application of these quotes could become terribly inconsistent and thus difficult to implement correctly, at least in my opinion. Blackstar1 (talk) 23:12, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

To be honest I don't see much difference in the writing style with the exception of bits like the introductory/one-off sentences. If they are used I don't really see how it'd differ much from the different writing styles that are conflated when several people write articles. On the other had, I will admit that sometimes there are instances where stuff the databook says can be reworded to sound a little better so I think that if we do use the quotations, we shouldn't be as stringent as to say it's an exact quote as sometimes moving stuff around is unavoidable. But as it stands we already use a lot of these direct translations without any problem all we'd be doing is pointing it out. And I'm pro-Kishimoto so I like the idea of integrating him more into the wikia.--Cerez₃₆₅™ 23:17, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

Although I see the writing style being more a matter of opinion, I do have an issue when it comes to employing quotation marks outside of "exact quote[s]", as the purpose of such punctuation is to infer that the text was taken directly from the source in question and as such, isn't open to alteration. This again raises the issue of consistent application of these quotes, because if the text can be altered, how do we define the point where it fails to be a quote anymore? I agree with the ideal of integrating Kishimoto more, but I get the feeling this may not be the best way to do so, given the nature of wikia. Blackstar1 (talk) 23:45, December 16, 2011 (UTC)

I doubt that. Any way, the way I see it is that this is not to prohibit people from making small changes which I believe are at times necessary even when we use translated quotes but to stop what happens when a person rewrites the entire article only to have it reverted at least that's why I would use them. We need to remember that we are working with translations here and while I have great faith in our resident translator, other translators might very well have translate a section/article differently. Given that, I see no reason we couldn't change bits in the translations if it'd be easier to understand. Direct quotes would mean us writing the articles in Japanese not English.--Cerez₃₆₅™

00:14, December 17, 2011 (UTC)

As I tried to indicate above, my main problem arises not from alterations per se, given as those by translators are an absolute necessity, but rather the potential extent of them. Where we choose to draw the line between quotation, paraphrase and interpretation is essential to how we implement what is proposed and as you can probably guess, this is where the matter becomes rather complicated and murky for myself. In my opinion, it's this which would make the application of quotes like this inconsistent and thus difficult to do so correctly, which is the reason why I'm wondering if this method is the best and most worthwhile to achieve the points listed initially. I'm not ruling quotations out, just trying to incite a bit more consideration to ensure we use the best solution possible. Blackstar1 (talk) 00:53, December 17, 2011 (UTC)

I agree that the databooks' style of presenting information isn't appropriate for a wiki, but, as Cerez points out, that hasn't stopped it from being used verbatim in several articles. Poison Mist, for example, only differs from the databook in what punctuation is used (period instead of exclamation point(s)). Others, such as Earth Style Wall, have had slight modifications to reflect material released after the databook, but are still 90% faithful to the original databook entry.

Of course there's the other end of the spectrum: Clone Great Explosion was at one time a very close copy of the databook. Since then the information has been well-synthesized. If all articles were to undergo this kind of conversion, there wouldn't be a problem. (Although not all databook entries are as inane as Clone Great Explosion's, so this isn't likely to happen with any great urgency.)

Rules of quoting in other writings may be of use in determining how to deal with quotes. When a word is changed ("he" --> "Jirōbō") or content is removed ("the adorably-furry dog with the tic of Tat ran with the purposes of eating across the street with a rapidity that was dangerous to himself and others" --> "the dog ran across the street"), single brackets are placed around the changed content. If brackets are used so often that there is little resemblance to the original quote or if it is awkward to read because there are too many brackets, quotes (and the brackets) aren't bothered with. But if the bracket-usage is minimal and the quote exceeds a certain length (usually four or five lines), quotation marks are expected and it's often a good idea to split it out from the rest of the content in some way (its own paragraph, special indentation, etc.)

The solution to this problem may lie elsewhere. Maybe there needs to be a serious effort to cite information? If these articles were referenced and if - relatedly - new information was not shoe-horned into existing material, quoting would not be an issue. Or maybe the wiki needs to decide how in-universe it wants to be? If all information, all the time was supposed to be presented as though Naruto and friends were real people that really did all these things, then obtrusive reminders (like what I suggest) that some piece of information is taken from elsewhere would not be viable. But I remain pessimistic that this wiki can make any committed-decision more complicated than how to spell something. 72.192.156.86 (talk) 22:01, December 17, 2011 (UTC)