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debut

Its debut would be when Kaguya with the fruit is shown I suppose--Elveonora (talk) 19:53, August 31, 2014 (UTC)

I would say so. The thing Obito summoned was a recreation of the Shinju, or rather the Ten-Tails in the likeness of the Shinju, since the original Shinju didn't have the Rinnegan (also the thing Obito summoned had briefly co-existed with the real Ten-Tails Madara had revived). So yeah, no disagreement from me. --WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task (Contribs) 20:00, August 31, 2014 (UTC)
That's not what I mean. I'm wondering if the debut is the chapter in which its infobox picture comes from, or the Kaguya mural--Elveonora (talk) 20:05, August 31, 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, I agreed with you, the mural was it's debut. --WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task (Contribs) 21:13, August 31, 2014 (UTC)
Hagoromo's devut tho is chapter 670, not the mural Madara showed to Obito, so I think the Shinju should be treated the same. In which chapter does its infobox picture come from?--Elveonora (talk) 21:22, August 31, 2014 (UTC)
Eh... you decide?--WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task (Contribs) 20:39, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

If we're considering the tree Obito made from Ten-Tails to be the Shinju (seeing as it's listed with the Rinnegan), shouldn't chapter 646 be the Shinju's debut? Hagoromo himself even said that the Shinju Kaguya took the fruit from was the same as the one Naruto saw in the war, unless that's a mistranslation.--BeyondRed (talk) 03:36, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

Hagoromo thought the Ten-Tails to be Shinju though. And people are still arguing with me if that thing Obito summoned was Shinju 2 or not--Elveonora (talk) 09:50, September 4, 2014 (UTC)

picture

Do we have one uploaded of its altered form? Also should we add Rinnegan as its power, since it had it when made by Obito?--Elveonora (talk) 20:59, August 31, 2014 (UTC)

Nah. The original Shinju didn't have a Rinnegan, the Ten-Tails did. Even though that TBM replica Obito summoned was labeled as the Shinju by Gyuki, it wasn't the real deal, as it co-existed with the real Ten-Tails Madara later summoned. The thing Obito summoned was just that, a Tailed Beast Mode replica. Last time I checked, the Shinju isn't a Tailed Beast, the Ten-Tails is. --WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task (Contribs) 21:10, August 31, 2014 (UTC)
Altered or not, it was still the Shinju. I mean, Kakashi wasn't born with Sharingan either yet it's listed as his KKG. So even though the Shinju got Rinnegan from Kaguya/Ten-Tails, it has had itm so...--Elveonora (talk) 21:20, August 31, 2014 (UTC)

regarding the Shinju's present location

Considering that Madara absorbed it, it should have become one again with the Ten-Tails. But we were told that God: Nativity of a World of Trees are roots of the Shinju. If that's true, then it's still there?--Elveonora (talk) 11:33, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

The God Tree that appeared during the war is just a form the Ten-Tails took to absorb Chakra. It's not the original tree. This version of Shinju is just like the Rabbit.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 11:44, September 1, 2014 (UTC)
Except that wasn't stated, it's only something we assumed. The tree Obito made was in fact called Shinju--Elveonora (talk) 11:46, September 1, 2014 (UTC)
If there is something that was stated, it is that the Shinju is the final form of the TT, yet it was also stated that the Shinju is the origin of the TT. The TT always had some tree-like features and that's not weird considering its origin. The Shinju that appeared during the war bloomed from a bud-like thing in the middle of the TT's stomach.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 11:59, September 1, 2014 (UTC)
That was never stated though.--Elveonora (talk) 12:06, September 1, 2014 (UTC)
What is the thing that was never stated?--MERCURIOUS (talk) 12:10, September 1, 2014 (UTC)
That the Shinju is the final form of the TT--Elveonora (talk) 12:15, September 1, 2014 (UTC)
Gyuuki said that.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 12:18, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Then I suppose you shouldn't have a problem providing exact chapter and page where it took place--Elveonora (talk) 12:21, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Chapter 646, 5th page. When B was followed by a big number of roots.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 12:26, September 1, 2014 (UTC)
Yes and Gyuki, Kurama, Obito, Madara hell even Hagoromo thought that the Ten-Tails = Shinju, before the big plot-twist. Gyuki's statement was wrong, since it didn't know better.--Elveonora (talk) 12:30, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

The original tree, the one with the fruit and all, doesn't exist anymore. It merged with Kaguya to become the TT. Ever since then, it's been that. The tree in the war is not the exact same tree that stood years ago and bore a fruit. • Seelentau 愛 12:37, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

I know it isn't exactly the same, but what Obito summoned was a recreation of the Shinju from the Ten-Tails' body, not a Tailed Beast Mode or the "final"/"true" form of the Ten-Tails--Elveonora (talk) 12:42, September 1, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, it's another form the TT can assume. • Seelentau 愛 12:47, September 1, 2014 (UTC)
But the Ten-Tails was still inside of Obito when he made the tree. I see it more like Obito taking a piece of the Ten-Tails' body and making the tree, but that makes it the Ten-Tails no more than its drones are and it surely ain't a Tailed Beast Mode. Also the reason why I brought this up is that even though Madara absorbed the Shinju replica and Kaguya got sealed, the roots which were stated to be of the Shinju are still there and I wonder how come--Elveonora (talk) 12:57, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

rinnegan

why is shinju listed with rinnegan KG...the 10tails has it not shinju...the tree that obito formed was a form of 10 tails not shinju...shinju in its original form stopped existing after kaguya merged with it...the TT's rinnegan icon should also be changed to the red tomoe one...as it is also listed in rinnegan's article too... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 14:03, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

We don't know wheter the Shinju had it or not, but since Kaguya (and hereby the Ten-Tails') power all came from the Shinju, I fail to see the Tree not possessing the Rinnegan.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna JOA20 14:13, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

so... by that logic we should also add wood...byakugan...dead bone pulse...and basically everything there is in narutovers because hey...they all come down from chakra and chakra came down from the shinju right?... honestly I think it should be removed...unless we have evidence in the manga that says or shows that shinju had rinnegan [or anything else] before its merging with kaguya...I think TT has it because of kaguya and she mutated it after she ate the chakra fruit...anymore thoughts dear fellows? --DARK ZER06 (talk) 14:28, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Read above and another talkpage, I disagree about the thing that Obito summoned having been a form of the Ten-Tails. I believe it was the Shinju. And Kaguya didn't literary merge with it, the Shinju incarnated into Kaguya, but that doesn't mean it's not inside of her and can't go out--Elveonora (talk) 14:29, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Two things I would like to talk about Elve:
  • 1. You believe that what Obito summoned is the Original Shinju and not a form of TT. And you said that Gyuuki and Madara didn't know the truth. Then I would like to know who stated that what Obito summoned is the Original Shinju.
  • 2. What do you mean by Shinju incarnated into Kaguya?! As far as I remember, BZ who knows the truth said that the TT is made of Kaguya and the Shinju. He/it didn't say Shinju incarnated into Kaguya.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 15:16, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

@elve...read above this sentence... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 15:21, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Sure:
  1. Because it hadn't been the Ten-Tails, since the Ten-Tails still was inside of Obito afterwards when he made the tree and when Obito ceased to be a jinchuuriki, the tree stayed there and didn't vanish. Also its "final form" would be the most complete one, yet when the Ten-Tails fought Hagoromo and Hamura, it wasn't a tree. The reason Gyuku thought so was because he was under the notion that the Ten-Tails equals the Shinju, thus the Shinju equals the Ten-Tails, which is wrong. Also the voice, presumed to be Kaguya was telling Madara to absorb the holy tree
  2. How Shinju and Kaguya became the Ten-Tails was through incarnation. Black Zetsu said it wasn't the incarnation of the holy tree trying to reclaim its chakra, but Kaguya's own will--Elveonora (talk) 15:29, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

1. if anything...that form is the shinju after kaguya merged with it...the original form is the one shown when hagoromo talked to naruto in his subconscious... 2. as I remember...kaguya ATE shinju's fruit...how can shinju reincarnate in kaguya? personally...I think when kaguya merged with shinju she still had the ability to change to her original form...as shown in her late fight with team 7... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 15:52, September 1, 2014 (UTC) btw, let's not get off topic...my issue was whether it's right to list shinju with rinnegan or not...I'm against it until proven otherwise... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 16:00, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

  1. Ten-Tails is Shinju + Kaguya, there was no TT before the Shinju incarnated into her body
  2. Incarnated, not reincarnated. And we don't know, the consumption of fruit either resulted in the incarnation, or the two are distinct events

For the Rinnegan, since I think there's enough evidence for the tree having been the Shinju itself rather than "TT final form" or "TT TBM" whatever, it has had a Rinnegan.--Elveonora (talk) 17:55, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

ok...anyone else...and I also have the same issue with the tailed beast ball in the justu box...seriously this one is way too illogical... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 15:49, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

It's a glitch, it shouldn't be showing.--Elveonora (talk) 15:52, September 2, 2014 (UTC)

Let's move a couple things...

On page 5 of chapter 646, Gyuuki referred to the tree Obito summoned as the Ten-Tails' final form, the Shinju. We then assumed what Obito summoned was the original form of the Shinju for a while (and at the time Gyuuki made its statement, it was also assumed the Shinju and TT were the same thing, but that was proven wrong in chapter 681, page 9). However, in chapter 670, page 10, the original form of the Shinju was shown to be a different tree with no apparent Rinnegan by Hagoromo. So the question was, was what Obito summoned or what Hagoromo showed the original Shinju? At the end of this discussion, we decided what Hagoromo showed was the original Shinju and not what Obito summoned. So what was the thing Obito summoned? This question was answered in page 6 of chapter 673, where it was explicitly stated the "holy tree" Obito summoned was in fact the Ten-Tails (although it was shown to briefly co-exist with the real Ten-Tails Madara revived in page 13 of chapter 663, meaning that tree Obito summoned was a Tailed Beast Mode replica/extension of the Ten-Tails, but nonetheless still the TT as stated in chapter 673). Basically, Obito did exactly what Gaara did when the latter brought forth his tailed beast, Shukaku, in the battle vs Naruto in chapters 134-135. Like Gaara, Obito brought forth a replica his tailed beast, the TT, and co-existed with it on the battlefield, and then the replica took the form of a tree. Due to these bevy of events in the manga (more specifically, the italicized text), I insist we move the Rinnegan and the tree Obito summoned to the Ten-Tails' article rather than it remain in this one. Opinions, anyone?--WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 18:50, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Edit: And by the way, I count the big, wide pages in the manga as two pages, so I apologize if my page numbers seem a bit off to those who count the big pages as one page.--WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 18:50, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
If you insist... and what if you are wrong and it was the Shinju?--Elveonora (talk) 19:02, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
Then things would stay the same. But according to chapter 673, that tree was said to be the Ten-Tails. --WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 19:08, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, because the Shinju is now part of the Ten-Tails. There's no reason to believe the Shinju's persona isn't somehow present in the Ten-Tails. And before you say: "it has no persona, it was just a tree" then no, because it was said the Shinju incarnated into Kaguya, thus the Ten-Tails came to be. Something without consciousness/soul can't incarnate, can it?--Elveonora (talk) 19:15, September 6, 2014 (UTC)


It cannot speak, it has no persona, it is a tree. Secondly, I don't think you know what the word "incarnate" means. It simply means "another form of/representative of", particularly in reference to a deity. Thirdly, the voice specifically called the "holy tree" that Obito summoned, in the same sentence, the Ten-Tails. Your argument cannot hold up to that. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 19:19, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Edit: Lastly, if you read what Zetsu said, it clearly states that to think of the Ten-Tails as an incarnation of the Shinju is wrong; the beast is in fact an incarnation of Kaguya using the tree as a medium. The tree only contributes its form. Kaguya is the brain and the power. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 19:24, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
It was stated on pages 6-7 of chapter 646, that while wars were going on, the Shinju was an impartial entity devoid of emotion and wasn't affected by the constant wars going on (That should equal no persona or emotion, right?). The manga said that, not me. And I don't care about the voice in the tree talking to Madara. We discussed that on the Jinchuuriki Forms talk page. I am not going to take this off-topic because of some unknown voice in a tree. The voice in 673 confirmed the "holy tree" to be the Ten-Tails after the true original Shinju showed was shown by Hagoromo in chapter 670. I'm not here to talk about a voice and make this discussion off-topic, I'm here to suggest we remove the Rinnegan from this article simply because the Shinju Hagoromo showed didn't have it, and because of what happened in chapter 673. I can already tell you disagree with that @Elveo, and that's fine. I'll patiently wait for others' opinions on this.--WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 19:28, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
Edit: @Foxie, what is your opinion to my first statement in this topic? --WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 19:30, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Black Zetsu said the Ten-Tails is the incarnation of Shinju and Kaguya. Something that has no mind/soul cannot incarnate. In religious context, for example Christianity, Jesus and Holy Spirit were incarnations of God. God is himself, Jesus and Holy Spirit at the same time, yet they are also their own selves. The soul they share is the same though. For Shinju to incarnate, it has to have had a soul. we were told it's a god, weren't we?--Elveonora (talk) 19:32, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

We were not. We were told it was worshiped as a deity, which is different from actually being one (see Hagoromo, who was worshiped similarly). Secondly, you show your lack of understanding for religion once again. Man is actually an incarnate of God in religion; because we "take on his form". But that is outside of this argument. A soul is not required to incarnate. A incarnation is literally another form, appearance, aspect of whatever it is incarnating from: a perfect explanation for what the Ten-Tails is. Kaguya provides the mind (will), the Shinju its body. That is the definition of an incarnate. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 19:39, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
Except in reverse. The body is Kaguya's, the spirit is Shinju's. Chapter 681: "The true nature of that is not only the Shinju. It's also Mother's self." means it's as well the Shinju's in the first place.

"It wasn't the incarnation of the Shinju that was trying to recover the chakra fruit" meaning the Ten-Tails' is Shinju's incarnation, that being Kaguya is the body into which the Shinju had incarnated, not the other way around as you say--Elveonora (talk) 19:45, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

…wait. Didn't Zetsu say that the Ten-Tails is the fusion of Kaguya and the Shinju?--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna JOA20 19:51, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
No, there was no literal fusion dance. Kaguya's DNA didn't merge with a tree's or something. The Shinju's spirit/power/essence entered Kaguya, thus the Ten-Tails came to be.--Elveonora (talk) 19:54, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Care to prove that? I'm dying to see the reference for this one. You're wrong of course, but since you're so certain, I'll entertain you. Page, chapter, panel. Let's see it. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 19:55, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Care to prove what? Just posted quotes above.--Elveonora (talk) 19:57, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

... Was the thing Obito summoned the Shinju or was it another form of the TT? In chapter 673, it was the TT. Does the Shinju have the Rinnegan? Can we talk about my first statement, please? I already know @Elveo's opinion, but what do you guys think of my first statement? --WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 20:03, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

The Shinju didn't have the Rinnegan. You are correct about that. But the Shinju is half the Ten-Tails since it became one with Kaguya. And since the Ten-Tails has Rinnegan and the Ten-Tails is half Shinju, the Shinju now has Rinnegan by extension, that's my reasoning--Elveonora (talk) 20:06, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
Obito manifested the Ten-Tails, then had it take the form of the Shinju, as Gyūki stated. We don't know wheter the Shinju actually had the Rinnegan, but seeing that all of Kaguya's power came from the fruit bore by the Shinju, it would at least be in the Tree's DNA, or something like that (akin to Hagoromo passing down the Sharingan to Indra despite never showing to have it in the first place).--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna JOA20 20:07, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
Okay then. Anyone else please respond to my first long explanation regarding this topic? --WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 20:16, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

feels good to see people paying attention to this matter again... I think shinju did not have rinnegan or byakugan or anything else besides its fruit...& that shinju stopped existing the moment kaguya merged or incarnated [or whatever the hell U wanna call it] with it...my opinion is that the original shinju article should be separated from the one obito summoned & count the obito's summoning as a form of TT & add it to the TT article...& remove the rinnegan from the original shinju article...until it is SHOWN ON THE MANGA that the original shinju had rinnegan...or byakugan...or anything else... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 20:37, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Except the Shinju didn't cease to exist. It exists in Kaguya. The reason I want the Rinnegan there is because the Shinju is now part of the Ten-Tails, which has it--Elveonora (talk) 20:38, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

......& I meant that shinju stopped existing as SHINJU the moment it became PART OF TT... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 20:45, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

So Kaguya too stopped existing the moment she became part of it by this logic of yours.--Elveonora (talk) 20:50, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

no...because she took over their merger...just like how she took over madara when they merged or incarnated or she absorbed him or whatever U wanna call it...the shinju is a tree...trees don't have minds to try and fight to take over in these situations...and even if it did it wouldn't make a difference since she has the upper hands in taking over beings...like she took over madara...it's like saying since madara exists inside her and she has byakugan then we should think madara has it too...I'm going according to Ur logic of course... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 20:59, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

this is off-topic...I suddenly had this question that if it's written in the article that kaguya gained rinnegan after consuming the fruit...then why ISN"T it written that she got byakugan too...beside other possible things like dead bone pulse... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 21:06, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

There was no merger or taking over. Think of incarnation as similar to possession. Except possession is akin to parasitism while incarnation is akin to symbiosis. Kaguya and Shinju are now ONE. And last time I checked, trees don't have magical fruits which give you chakra and make you grow forehead eyes either. This is fiction. For the Byakugan, that's a good question, feel free to take it to her talkpage--Elveonora (talk) 21:08, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
To get back on-topic, yes, Kaguya and the Shinju are now ONE, and the thing Obito summoned was an extension/another form of that unison. The tree was even stated to be the TT in chapter 673. --WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 21:15, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, since its body is now the Ten-Tails' body and you acknowledge they are one, there's no reason to remove the Rinnegan.--Elveonora (talk) 21:18, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

......again I meant that in THIS FICTION trees don't have minds...I told U call it whatever U want merger incarnation possession taking over parasitism I don't care...I gave U proof based on the madara example...it's up to U whether U wanna accept it or not...my final opinion regarding rinnegan is it should be REMOVED from the original shinju article... & about the off-topic thing I said...discussing it there than here doesn't make a difference...shinju & kaguya are related...anyone has any opinion about it?...sry about going off-topic windstar, had to throw it outta my head :] --DARK ZER06 (talk) 21:21, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Are you Kishimoto? If not then you can't make such claims. Again, only something that has mind/soul can incarnate into another form.--Elveonora (talk) 21:23, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
Yes, there is reason to remove the Rinnegan, the Shinju doesn't have it, the Ten-Tails does, and the TT can take any form it wants, even to resemble the original Shinju tree, as shown by Obito in chapter 646. --WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 21:28, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
And the Shinju is part of the Ten-Tails, so it has it by extension.--Elveonora (talk) 21:30, September 6, 2014 (UTC)


we have another article for them being one...it's called TT...leave the rinnegan there...or by Ur logic we should start adding wood, TBB, and a LOTTA other shit to shinju's page too...

YES I AM...now BOW B4 me......dude you talk about fiction...& yet Ur the one forgetting that INCARNATION is FICTIONAL...seriously...stop this shit...I'm getting tired...other people should give their opinions here too...continue this as much as U want on Ur own... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 21:30, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Yes, @Elveo, the extension Obito summoned was made up of both Kaguya and the Shinju, just like the TT is. --WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 21:37, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Good. So since Shinju occupies body with a Rinnegan and even possibly spoke through the extension with a Rinnegan, it should be there imo.--Elveonora (talk) 21:44, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
Kaguya also occupies that body. The Rinnegan on that extension is Kaguya's, not the Shinju's. The Shinju occupies the TT as well. But so does Kaguya. It's Kaguya's Rinnegan. Not the Shinju. Therefore there shouldn't be an assumption the Shinju has the Rinnegan when the extension Obito summoned was stated to be the TT, not the Shinju alone, in chapter 673. --WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 21:48, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
Wait, so when two occupy the same body, the organs and so belong to only one of them? News to me.--Elveonora (talk) 21:51, September 6, 2014 (UTC)
Lemme modify what I said: The Shinju doesn't have the Rinnegan. But Kaguya has the Rinnegan. The Ten-Tails has the Rinnegan because of Kaguya. The Rinnegan on the thing Obito summoned is the TT's, sorry for not clarifying. --WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 21:54, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

It's not like I'm preventing you from removing it, go on, I'm just questioning you on the decision. But there may be no point since we are going in circles.--Elveonora (talk) 21:57, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

Fine. I'll also move the thing Obito summoned to the Ten-Tails' article, I was arguing that as well since the manga, in chapter 673, explicitly stated the tree Obito summoned was the TT. --WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 22:01, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

trivia about dragons

I don't see any dragon-like entities in the chapter--Elveonora (talk) 09:22, September 7, 2014 (UTC)

Really? I do. Just the wrong panel was given here. Norleon (talk) 10:04, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
I see a dragon in the chapter, but wasn't it summoned by Obito or Madara?--Elveonora (talk) 10:14, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
The four dragons on panel 5 clearly come out of the tree, surely by Obito's will (Madara was somewhere else), but it seems that they could move by their own, seen when two of them moved on panel 11 while Obito was occupied with Naruto and Sasuke at the time. Summoned and guided or not, they do derive from the Shinju's roots.
It somehow seems to me that you're reading the wrong chapter though...we're talking about chapter 650, right? Norleon (talk) 10:33, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
Strange, I didn't see them the fist time around. Also I guess that chapter pretty much solves the question if Kaguya/Ten-Tails have Wood Release. Unless you want to tell me that those dragons just happen to look identically to those produced by Wood Release--Elveonora (talk) 12:51, September 7, 2014 (UTC)
Maybe, maybe not. But if this becomes a continuation of the Kaguya/Shinju/Ten-Tails discussion, then that's it for me . *walks away* Norleon (talk) 12:58, September 7, 2014 (UTC)

so how is it?

Getting confused more and more, the databook apparently calls the thing Obito summoned Shinju.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 16:26, November 5, 2014 (UTC)

Technically it was. I thought we established that?--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō (talk) 16:39, November 5, 2014 (UTC)
Ten-Tails is combination of Shinju and Kaguya, so Obito manifested Shinju from himself and Kaguya's remaining power still resides his inside. --Salamancc (talk) 16:46, November 5, 2014 (UTC)
Salamancc gets it. Obito recreated the Shinju, which he could do because he was its (read: Ten-Tails) jinchuriki. Again I thought we already established this.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō (talk) 16:48, November 5, 2014 (UTC)
That's what I was originally saying? Yet, Windstar I believe removed all mentions of the tree having been Shinju--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 18:02, November 5, 2014 (UTC)
Where did the databook call Obito's tree the Shinju? Are you referring to the section about the origin of the Ōtsutsuki and chakra, or was it said in Ten-Tails' character entry?--BeyondRed (talk) 18:10, November 5, 2014 (UTC)

Click this link and scroll down. The tree Obito summoned is referred to as the Ten-Tails as well, with its picture being in the Ten-Tails' character entry, with a description saying that it is required for the Eye of the Moon plan, according to FF-Suzaku. So what do we do? • WindStar7125 [Mod] WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 18:18, November 5, 2014 (UTC)

Yet we are told they are connected to the Shinju's roots ._. also the tree (or at least part of it) is still there, the Ten-Tails is no longer--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 18:23, November 5, 2014 (UTC)
In chapter 646, Gyuki refers to Obito's summoning as the Shinju. Then the voice in the tree in 673 page 6 refers to it as the Ten-Tails after Hagoromo shows Naruto the true Shinju in 670. The databook, in the initial pages, refers to it as the divine tree. Then the same databook refers to it as the Ten-Tails in the link I just gave. Jeez, Kishi make up your mind. • WindStar7125 [Mod] WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 19:33, November 5, 2014 (UTC)
Ten-Tails equals Shinju + Kaguya, therefore the Ten-Tails is Shinju and the Ten-Tails is Kaguya, though it can be argued that the Shinju is not the Ten-Tails and Kaguya is not the Ten-Tails. So yeah, Kishimoto never contradicted himself. If anything we made it more confusing by trying to draw very very hard lines between the Ten-Tails and the sum of its parts.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō (talk) 04:00, November 6, 2014 (UTC)
But Like I said, I was under the impression we established this but clearly I was mistaken.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō (talk) 04:01, November 6, 2014 (UTC)

Ten-tails = Shinju + Kaguya. The Shinju (the one Hagoromo showed) didn't have a Rinne Sharingan, Kaguya did. And in chapter 645, Obito summoned a TT replica that literally turned into a tree. The voice in the tree in Chapter 673, page 6 even confirmed what Obito summoned to be the TT after Hagoromo showed Naruto the original Shinju in chapter 670. • WindStar7125 [Mod] WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 04:12, November 6, 2014 (UTC)

Actually the voice in the first sentence spoke in first person, calling itself both the Shinju and Jubi, in second sentence, it speaks in third person.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 12:49, November 6, 2014 (UTC)
This again? Sorry WindStar, but I don't like this discussion. Anyhow, here are my two cents: There was once a tree that was known as the Shinju. Then it fusioned with Kaguya and became the Ten-Tails. Then Obito summoned it in form of a tree or the "tree part of the Ten-Tails", leaving the "Kaguya part" inside him. Then he fucked up, the Biju somehow ended up in Madara and then the tree spoke to him. The voice of the tree was Kurozetsus. I have told you guys this multiple times already, but you never listened. Kurozetsu tricked Madara into absorbing the rest of the Ten-Tails, uniting it and making it possible for Kaguya to return. The tree in the war is not the original tree (it doesn't even have branches were a fruit could grow), but the ten-tailed tree or whatever you wanna call it. • Seelentau 愛 01:30, November 7, 2014 (UTC)
Exactly my point. It was the TT in the form of a tree like you just said, Tau. Believe me, I didn't want to address this again either, but it was brought up anyway. Glad to see that we agree, tho. • WindStar7125 [Mod] WindStar7125 Task WindStar7125's Task 01:35, November 7, 2014 (UTC)
Actually, considering Seel says Kaguya part of TT stayed inside of Obito, then it WAS the Shinju that Obito summoned, modified by the "TTfication" Also where's your proof the voice was Black Zetsu, does that come from the databook or is it that just your assumption?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 11:27, November 7, 2014 (UTC)

And as I have repeated, I thought we already established all that. So I am really confused at what exactly we are discussing here.--TheUltimate3 Eye of Rikudō (talk) 11:33, November 7, 2014 (UTC)

Should it be mentioned here God Tree that it can suck chakra, has an eye, dragons, that it spoke (unless Seel gives irrefutable evidence it was BZ) appeared in the 4th war and that people were attached to its roots to turn them into white poop or not? All the fancy things--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 11:36, November 7, 2014 (UTC)
My evidence is that it spoke in Katakana. Only Black Zetsu does this. • Seelentau 愛 11:39, November 7, 2014 (UTC)
That's really not enough evidence. Madara would have recognized the voice had it been Black Zetsu. Unless you propose that he used "voice changing technique" or whatever. In that case, it still couldn't be Black Zetsu, wasn't he attached to Obito at the time? Why would his voice come from a giant tree?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 11:42, November 7, 2014 (UTC)
He "spoke" in Katakana, which is enough evidence for Black Zetsu, since he's the only character that has ever done this. Also, he didn't speak out loud, but in Madara's thoughts. And you're making this too easy. The tree in the war was not the tree that bore the fruit. It was the tree after Kaguya took control of it and merged with it to create the TT. How is that so hard to understand? • Seelentau 愛 11:50, November 7, 2014 (UTC)
It's not hard to understand. I just wonder if stuff that the TT-fied tree had and did should be mentioned in this article. If it is no longer the Shinju by the reasoning that it merged with Kaguya to become part of the Ten-Tails, then I can use the same reasoning and say that Kaguya is no longer Kaguya since she merged with the Shinju--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 11:55, November 7, 2014 (UTC)
Unlike the tree, Kaguya is a (somewhat) human being. It has a consciousness and a will, the tree is just a tree. • Seelentau 愛 12:11, November 7, 2014 (UTC)

Okay. So a magical vampire tree merged with an alien female into a monster, makes the monster still be the alien female, but no longer the magical vampire tree. And said monster transformed back into the alien female is of course still the alien female, but said monster transformed into a magical vampire tree again isn't the magical vampire tree. I smell racism--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 12:16, November 7, 2014 (UTC)

Just because you don't like the things how they are, they aren't less correct. Just keep your witty comments to yourself please. • Seelentau 愛 12:19, November 7, 2014 (UTC)
Well, whatever. I just want things to be listed correctly. If you insist it's correct the way it is now, then I trust your word, just stand by your word and don't change your mind later please.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 12:22, November 7, 2014 (UTC)
It has nothing to do with me or my mind. It's the facts: Kaguya merged with the tree and Obito released the tree-part of the TT. Kaguya herself is the Kaguya-part of the tree. But since she has a mind on its own, she can act on her own. The tree can not. The tree just stood there, collecting chakra. It can't speak or anything. • Seelentau 愛 12:29, November 7, 2014 (UTC)
So if the tree were conscious (something I still believe to be true, but lets put this aside until later :P) you wouldn't oppose qualities and doings of the TT-fied tree noted here in Shinju article?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 12:35, November 7, 2014 (UTC)
I would, because the Shinju ended where the TT began. Kaguya didn't end where the TT because she had control. The Shinju is more of a tool than a character. • Seelentau 愛 12:41, November 7, 2014 (UTC)
...so we can say she just basically ABSORBED the damn thing, & all that merging & incarnation thing is some fancy words... --DARK ZER06 (talk) 23:22, November 13, 2014 (UTC)

Incarnated...?

I don't think "incarnated" is the proper term to use when referring to Kaguya merging with the Shinju to become the Ten Tails. To incarnate is for a spiritual entity to take on physical form, especially that of a human. Kaguya and the Shinju already had physical forms. Arawn 999 (talk) 23:33, January 13, 2015 (UTC)

It's still called incarnation, though. • Seelentau 愛 00:05, January 14, 2015 (UTC)
Really? I thought it was a translation mistake or meant figuratively. That's... disappointing. Arawn 999 (talk) 02:52, January 14, 2015 (UTC)
I think it was 化身 keshin, which means incarnation, but not exclusively in the spiritual sense. Can't remember where I saw it, though. • Seelentau 愛 03:14, January 14, 2015 (UTC)
It's in Jin no Sho's section on the origin of ninjutsu (page 217, specifically).--BeyondRed (talk) 03:37, January 14, 2015 (UTC)
Ah yes. It says "the God Tree's incarnation, 'Ten-Tails'". • Seelentau 愛 03:39, January 14, 2015 (UTC)

Black Zetsu also referred to the Ten-Tails as "not just the Shinju's incarnation but also mother's self" or so.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 13:21, January 14, 2015 (UTC)

Sentience

okay.... so Bringing this up for the very last time. Not only was the thing that split from Obito called Shinju dozen of times, but the moment its roots were gone after Infinite Tsukuyomi/God: Nativity of a World of Trees were released, Guruguru/Tobi died. If that isn't enough proof that the thing split from Obito had been separate from Kaguya who was chilling in the moon by the time Tobi died, then I don't know what is. Basically, when Kaguya and Shinju merged, both were equally the Ten-Tails, but each of them can still exist separately even after the merger, just like part of the Ten-Tails once again became an alien princess with horns and the other part a chakra sucking tree.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 22:39, January 5, 2015 (UTC)

It can also be a partial transformation, just like when Obito was a Jinchūriki, he didn't have the tree attached to him, when Naruto cut the tree into two halves only the roots of Shinju formed the God: Nativity of a World of Trees and it was linked to Kaguya's core dimension to absorb the chakra collected, the upper half of the tree was absorbed by Madara who transformed into Kaguya. So basically what you said was the tree was different, but it was actually one same tree only the half remained on earth and other half was herself and she remained linked to her other half. About Tobi he was attached to the roots so he died after the release of Infinite Tsukuyomi, it must be because he had more chakra and he submitted to the tree, the other Zetsus died and they were transformed into trees after Kaguya was sealed, some of them were not attached to the tree, anyway the Shinju tree died.--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 10:43, January 6, 2015 (UTC)

Bumping this. The Shinju clearly spoke to Madara, it wasn't Kaguya, it wasn't Black Zetsu as Seelentau assumed.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 11:47, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah. In the anime. Where a difference between Katakana and Hiragana can't be made. I didn't assume Black Zetsu spoke to Madara, it's a fact. Only Black Zetsu uses Katakana and we know that Black Zetsu planned to revive Kaguya in Madara's body, so it's only logical that he had to get Madara to absorb the tree. The tree itself is a non-sentient being. • Seelentau 愛 11:51, August 13, 2015 (UTC)
Anime is still official. I'm sure Madara would have recognized Black Zetsu's voice, not to mention how would it speak to Madara?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 11:53, August 13, 2015 (UTC)
Officially an adaption, yes. Manga > anime. I don't know how it did that, but it did. I mean, what's more likely: A being capable of speaking, even in a unique way, speaking to Madara to get him to absorb the tree, or a tree that never once had spoken nor should be able to speak to speak to Madara to absorb it to achieve... what? Why would a tree even care about Madara's goals? • Seelentau 愛 11:56, August 13, 2015 (UTC)
Because Madara would unite all chakra again for new fruit to grow. This is a manga about talking frogs, ghosts, transsexual immortal snake men, but conscious talking tree seems unbelievable to you?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 11:59, August 13, 2015 (UTC)
Yes, because all those other things have been proven to speak more than once. We have literally one case were a tree, that was never said to be even sentient, could've maybe spoken, even though the way of speech was 1:1 that of another character, which on top would make more sense since said character wanted to revive Kaguya. • Seelentau 愛 12:03, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

It said (translation used): "Take me within you" "Take the Divine Tree... Ten-Tails... everything into you" and the focus is clearly in the panel on the tree's eye. Not to mention once is all said and done, Madara says: "I understand now... the Divine Tree itself..." why would he say that unless he realized/understood something? He realized clearly what's implied tha the Divine Tree itself wanted him to absorb it. What's more likely, that things are as said and shown or that Seelentau is correct?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 12:15, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Usually it's the same: I'm correct because I understand things as they are. Again, the tree was never shown to be sentient at all. Also, Katakana were used, something that only Black Zetsu does. That's one thing that speaks against the tree and one thing that speaks for Black Zetsu. • Seelentau 愛 12:24, August 13, 2015 (UTC)
So you rather believe that Black Zetsu would:
  • fake its voice
  • somehow speak telepathically to Madara
  • present itself as "me - the divine tree, ten-tails"
  • Madara would comment on his realization about the divine tree, that it itself something, declare that he has become immortal now, meaning he wasn't before the absorption (how would he know that unless the tree told him?)
  • it all being Black Zetsu's trick

Less likely than 2 characters using the same way of speech.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 12:32, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

  • It faked being Madara's will, so yes.
  • It somehow faked being created Madara, so yes.
  • To make Madara believe the tree spoke to him, yes.
  • The tree never said anything about him becoming immortal. I guess Madara was referring to the tree's chakra or whatever.
  • Yes, Kaguya needed a container to revive into, Black Zetsu got Madara to assemble all the chakra for Kaguya's revival
And yes, because as I said, the tree was never once shown to be sentient before. If anything other than Black Zetsu, it was Kaguya herself who was speaking. I'd really like to know which seiyu was used as the voice. • Seelentau 愛 12:36, August 13, 2015 (UTC)
Me too, but even if they credited it as Shinju, you would still dismiss it as anime-only. And it's likely they used some computer generated voice maybe.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 12:39, August 13, 2015 (UTC)
Although I have to admit that I forgot that Black Zetsu was with Obito all the time in a different dimension. So it couldn't be him... so it was Kaguya then? That voice sounded manly, though. • Seelentau 愛 13:03, August 13, 2015 (UTC)
The voice was probably disorted to keep Kaguya's identity "secret" or something.--JouXIII (talk) 13:08, August 13, 2015 (UTC)
Or to display the use of Katakana in the manga. Something which Kaguya never did after her revival... so it was indeed the tree? But the tree is nonsentient and even if it was sentient, if would be Kaguya's consciousness... this is all so confusing ._. • Seelentau 愛 13:10, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

I believe it was kaguya's voice...at least in the manga...haven't seen the anime for a long time...the chances of it being the shinju itself is near zero...& BZ has never been shown to speak telepathically...since BZ speaks in katakana & it itself is kaguya's will then it is highly likely that kaguya speaks in that manner too...also, after madara absorbed the shinju it showed kaguya's doujutsus... --DARK ZERO--talk 13:15, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

also let's not forget that the shinju BY ITSELF & kaguya BY HERSELF don't exist anymore...they coexist together...definitely there are some changes that were created since their merger... --DARK ZERO--talk 13:17, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Kaguya never spoke the way Black Zetsu did. However, Black Zetsu changed its way of speaking when Kaguya was revived and he revealed himself to be her will. • Seelentau 愛 13:23, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

@Seel, eh, so you think BZ speaking not just with telepathy, but interdimensionally is a little too bit far-fetched as well? And the voice sounded quite gender-neutral to me, not too masculine nor too feminine. Or it sounded like a man's voice pasted over woman's or something. And why is it so hard to believe the Shinju is conscious? Its fruit makes one a goddess/god. Why would people worship it unless they knew it was special? How would they know it's special? Kaguya was the first to our knowledge to eat its fruit, if that is true that Kaguya was the first, then the only way they would know "don't eat the fruit" is if someone told them not to, why not the tree itself? @Dark, they do, as you could see Ten-Tails turned into Kaguya, Kaguya back into Ten-Tails, back into Kaguya and then for a moment Ten-Tails again while being sealed.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 13:20, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

It's a tree that grew from the earth like any other tree. There's literally no reason to believe it has a consciousness. • Seelentau 愛 13:24, August 13, 2015 (UTC)
Except it grew because blood of people soaked into earth and its fruit is magical, sure, like any other tree.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 13:27, August 13, 2015 (UTC)
Still doesn't mean that it can speak. • Seelentau 愛 13:36, August 13, 2015 (UTC)
Why else could it be worshiped as a deity? How else was it known that it's forbidden to eat its fruit? "group of people comes across an ordinary tree... they get an idea to make it a deity and to ban consumption of its fruit for teh lulz"--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 13:41, August 13, 2015 (UTC)
Exactly. • Seelentau 愛 13:43, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

They weren't that much off though. Not only the tree came into existence under mysterious and unusual circumstances, its fruit is magical (unless you consider chakra to be natural phenomenon in the Narutoverse, just some chemistry or whatever) and Kaguya, who ate its fruit grew magical third eye and came to be worshiped as a deity herself. And this goddess Kaguya later merged with this God Tree to become the Ten-Tails of which power is universal that Naruto couldn't measure it. And guess what, it made Kaguya immortal, so yes, definitely ordinary tree worshiped purely out of superstition. Because actual deities can't exist in fiction with magical power, soul, afterlife etc.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 13:52, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Yay, sarcasm truly helps in this discussion. • Seelentau 愛 14:00, August 13, 2015 (UTC)
Where is Shak when you need him? He is the one who posts list of staff on anime episodes and voice actors etc.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 14:49, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

I was just about the ask that. Credits are the only thing that could help solve this, I think. I did pay attention to the credits, but I don't recall seeing a specific VA listed as Shinju. I could have missed it though. There's also a chance this was one of those other/supplemental voices, that get lumped together. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:38, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Shinju wasn't shown in Cast-section, so it's most likely that "other/supplemental"-thing.--JouXIII (talk) 15:51, August 13, 2015 (UTC)
Oh well, another unexplained thing then on the long list on unexplained things. I don't think we can say it was Black Zetsu without a huge dosage of faith forced down people's throats though.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 16:24, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

It didn't sound like Black Zetsu at all and it being BZ doesn't make sense either. He was attached to Obito, in another dimension, with Obito currently being in control of him. There was no way that was BZ, if anything, it was Kaguya talking to Madara. But her voice didn't sound the same because she was merged with the tree and she is technically the Ten-Tails that is inside of him. So it would make sense that her voice would sound all deep and masculine as the Ten-Tails/Shinju. In the Manga, I thought it was just Kaguya, but now, I'm not so sure. But I think it was her just with a deeper voice due to not being in her normal humanoid form, since she's a giant beast and tree right now. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 18:34, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Here's how I see it. The voice was Kaguya's. Most of this is probably a leap of faith, but follow me along here:
  • Madara knows of Kaguya. He recited the legend to Hashirama after all.
  • Madara was shocked when the tree spoke, even asking it who it was, so that rules out Black Zetsu for me.
  • After Madara takes the tree himself, he says "I see. The Shinju itself is..." and pauses.
  • Not even a few panels later (few minutes in the anime), that creepy shadow of Kaguya's eyes appears in Madara's head.
Going off of that, the voice was Kaguya's and Madara actually realized what the Shinju was after absorbing it, but likely didn't predict that she'd use him to resurrect. Just my two cents. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 20:26, August 13, 2015 (UTC)
^ Finally, someone who gets this shit...the panel of kaguya's doujutsus hints that madara came to the realization that shinju is indeed kaguya...he didn't know it before hence the "OOOOOHHHH...I SEE WHAT U DID THERE [KAGUYA]"...& though I hate to repeat my self...people...there is no kaguya or shinju individually...so when I say that some changes were originated in their merger it means that for example shinju became sentient...because kaguya's sentience now exist in it...think of them as a pack for every discussion to come in the future... --DARK ZERO--talk 22:38, August 13, 2015 (UTC)
Works fine with me. Either Shinju is sentient or it was Kaguya.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 20:43, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

character

Is there a reason this is treated as a character (specifically the choice of infobox)? I don't remember it doing anything suggesting consciousness, and the existence of more than one suggests it's more like toad than Gamabunta. ~SnapperTo 06:14, January 24, 2016 (UTC)

It talked to Madara, that's a character. --Shrek4chan (talk) 08:09, January 24, 2016 (UTC)
See above for why talking to Madara doesn't proof that the tree is sentient. The fourth databook doesn't give it an infobox, either. • Seelentau 愛 11:24, January 24, 2016 (UTC)
I believe it was treated as a character (instead of a tool) is an offshoot of Madara's speech about the tree turning into the Ten-Tails because it was pissed at humans for taking its chakra, and was not changed into a tool when it was revealed that wasnt the case.--TheUltimate3 Akimichi Symbol (talk) 13:20, January 24, 2016 (UTC)
But should it really be a tool though or just a general info page? --Cerez365Hyūga Symbol(talk) 15:07, January 24, 2016 (UTC)
seel-the databooks didn't give the tailed beasts infoboxes either. Munchvtec (talk) 15:36, January 24, 2016 (UTC)
I'm not sensing a lot of opposition to treating it as a general topic, certainly with a trivia point about maybe it talks. Yes/no?
What about the name? Do we want to translate it or leave it Shinju? Unlike "Dawn", "God Tree" (or whatever) captures the topic succinctly. ~SnapperTo 17:44, January 24, 2016 (UTC)
I don't mind if it's changed but i believe the name should remain. Munchvtec# (talk) 18:24, January 24, 2016 (UTC)
Well, it's implied the tree has some sort of mind, so why tool?--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 03:38, January 25, 2016 (UTC)
Well, i guess it should stay as is or...we could make the page a naruto term one like Jashin. Munchvtec (talk) 03:44, January 25, 2016 (UTC)
Seeing as there are at least two Shinju in existence, it's now more like a species than a single character, isn't it? Also, support translating it as God Tree. Calling it Shinju never made sense in the first place, since that's more of a descriptor used by humans (like "Nine-Tails") than a proper name (like "Kurama"). At the time, some may have thought it was the Ten-Tails' proper name, but now we know better.--BeyondRed (talk) 06:57, January 25, 2016 (UTC)

anime stuff

  • The beginning of the episode shows something that would eventually grow into the Shinju, fall from the sky.
  • The episode shows the "Rinne Sharingan Shinju" same as Obito made, grow from the ordinary looking tree Shinju...
  • Kaguya claimed to be the Shinju's guardian I think?

Should be somehow added/noted.--Elve [Mod] Talk Page|Contribs 18:08, May 12, 2016 (UTC)

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