Talk: God Tree


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Sentience

okay.... so Bringing this up for the very last time. Not only was the thing that split from Obito called Shinju dozen of times, but the moment its roots were gone after Infinite Tsukuyomi/God: Nativity of a World of Trees were released, Guruguru/Tobi died. If that isn't enough proof that the thing split from Obito had been separate from Kaguya who was chilling in the moon by the time Tobi died, then I don't know what is. Basically, when Kaguya and Shinju merged, both were equally the Ten-Tails, but each of them can still exist separately even after the merger, just like part of the Ten-Tails once again became an alien princess with horns and the other part a chakra sucking tree.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 22:39, January 5, 2015 (UTC)

It can also be a partial transformation, just like when Obito was a Jinchūriki, he didn't have the tree attached to him, when Naruto cut the tree into two halves only the roots of Shinju formed the God: Nativity of a World of Trees and it was linked to Kaguya's core dimension to absorb the chakra collected, the upper half of the tree was absorbed by Madara who transformed into Kaguya. So basically what you said was the tree was different, but it was actually one same tree only the half remained on earth and other half was herself and she remained linked to her other half. About Tobi he was attached to the roots so he died after the release of Infinite Tsukuyomi, it must be because he had more chakra and he submitted to the tree, the other Zetsus died and they were transformed into trees after Kaguya was sealed, some of them were not attached to the tree, anyway the Shinju tree died.--Naruto uzu6254 (talk) 10:43, January 6, 2015 (UTC)

Bumping this. The Shinju clearly spoke to Madara, it wasn't Kaguya, it wasn't Black Zetsu as Seelentau assumed.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 11:47, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Yeah. In the anime. Where a difference between Katakana and Hiragana can't be made. I didn't assume Black Zetsu spoke to Madara, it's a fact. Only Black Zetsu uses Katakana and we know that Black Zetsu planned to revive Kaguya in Madara's body, so it's only logical that he had to get Madara to absorb the tree. The tree itself is a non-sentient being. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 11:51, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Anime is still official. I'm sure Madara would have recognized Black Zetsu's voice, not to mention how would it speak to Madara?--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 11:53, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Officially an adaption, yes. Manga > anime. I don't know how it did that, but it did. I mean, what's more likely: A being capable of speaking, even in a unique way, speaking to Madara to get him to absorb the tree, or a tree that never once had spoken nor should be able to speak to speak to Madara to absorb it to achieve... what? Why would a tree even care about Madara's goals? • Seelentau 愛 ^議 11:56, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Because Madara would unite all chakra again for new fruit to grow. This is a manga about talking frogs, ghosts, transsexual immortal snake men, but conscious talking tree seems unbelievable to you?--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 11:59, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Yes, because all those other things have been proven to speak more than once. We have literally one case were a tree, that was never said to be even sentient, could've maybe spoken, even though the way of speech was 1:1 that of another character, which on top would make more sense since said character wanted to revive Kaguya. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 12:03, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

It said (translation used): "Take me within you" "Take the Divine Tree... Ten-Tails... everything into you" and the focus is clearly in the panel on the tree's eye. Not to mention once is all said and done, Madara says: "I understand now... the Divine Tree itself..." why would he say that unless he realized/understood something? He realized clearly what's implied tha the Divine Tree itself wanted him to absorb it. What's more likely, that things are as said and shown or that Seelentau is correct?--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 12:15, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Usually it's the same: I'm correct because I understand things as they are. Again, the tree was never shown to be sentient at all. Also, Katakana were used, something that only Black Zetsu does. That's one thing that speaks against the tree and one thing that speaks for Black Zetsu. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 12:24, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

So you rather believe that Black Zetsu would:

fake its voice
somehow speak telepathically to Madara
present itself as "me - the divine tree, ten-tails"
Madara would comment on his realization about the divine tree, that it itself something, declare that he has become immortal now, meaning he wasn't before the absorption (how would he know that unless the tree told him?)
it all being Black Zetsu's trick

Less likely than 2 characters using the same way of speech.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 12:32, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

It faked being Madara's will, so yes.
It somehow faked being created Madara, so yes.
To make Madara believe the tree spoke to him, yes.
The tree never said anything about him becoming immortal. I guess Madara was referring to the tree's chakra or whatever.
Yes, Kaguya needed a container to revive into, Black Zetsu got Madara to assemble all the chakra for Kaguya's revival

And yes, because as I said, the tree was never once shown to be sentient before. If anything other than Black Zetsu, it was Kaguya herself who was speaking. I'd really like to know which seiyu was used as the voice. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 12:36, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Me too, but even if they credited it as Shinju, you would still dismiss it as anime-only. And it's likely they used some computer generated voice maybe.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 12:39, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Although I have to admit that I forgot that Black Zetsu was with Obito all the time in a different dimension. So it couldn't be him... so it was Kaguya then? That voice sounded manly, though. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 13:03, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

The voice was probably disorted to keep Kaguya's identity "secret" or something.--JouXIII (talk) 13:08, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Or to display the use of Katakana in the manga. Something which Kaguya never did after her revival... so it was indeed the tree? But the tree is nonsentient and even if it was sentient, if would be Kaguya's consciousness... this is all so confusing ._. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 13:10, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

I believe it was kaguya's voice...at least in the manga...haven't seen the anime for a long time...the chances of it being the shinju itself is near zero...& BZ has never been shown to speak telepathically...since BZ speaks in katakana & it itself is kaguya's will then it is highly likely that kaguya speaks in that manner too...also, after madara absorbed the shinju it showed kaguya's doujutsus... --DARK ZERO--talk 13:15, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

also let's not forget that the shinju BY ITSELF & kaguya BY HERSELF don't exist anymore...they coexist together...definitely there are some changes that were created since their merger... --DARK ZERO--talk 13:17, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Kaguya never spoke the way Black Zetsu did. However, Black Zetsu changed its way of speaking when Kaguya was revived and he revealed himself to be her will. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 13:23, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

@Seel, eh, so you think BZ speaking not just with telepathy, but interdimensionally is a little too bit far-fetched as well? And the voice sounded quite gender-neutral to me, not too masculine nor too feminine. Or it sounded like a man's voice pasted over woman's or something. And why is it so hard to believe the Shinju is conscious? Its fruit makes one a goddess/god. Why would people worship it unless they knew it was special? How would they know it's special? Kaguya was the first to our knowledge to eat its fruit, if that is true that Kaguya was the first, then the only way they would know "don't eat the fruit" is if someone told them not to, why not the tree itself? @Dark, they do, as you could see Ten-Tails turned into Kaguya, Kaguya back into Ten-Tails, back into Kaguya and then for a moment Ten-Tails again while being sealed.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 13:20, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

It's a tree that grew from the earth like any other tree. There's literally no reason to believe it has a consciousness. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 13:24, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Except it grew because blood of people soaked into earth and its fruit is magical, sure, like any other tree.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 13:27, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Still doesn't mean that it can speak. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 13:36, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Why else could it be worshiped as a deity? How else was it known that it's forbidden to eat its fruit? "group of people comes across an ordinary tree... they get an idea to make it a deity and to ban consumption of its fruit for teh lulz"--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 13:41, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Exactly. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 13:43, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

They weren't that much off though. Not only the tree came into existence under mysterious and unusual circumstances, its fruit is magical (unless you consider chakra to be natural phenomenon in the Narutoverse, just some chemistry or whatever) and Kaguya, who ate its fruit grew magical third eye and came to be worshiped as a deity herself. And this goddess Kaguya later merged with this God Tree to become the Ten-Tails of which power is universal that Naruto couldn't measure it. And guess what, it made Kaguya immortal, so yes, definitely ordinary tree worshiped purely out of superstition. Because actual deities can't exist in fiction with magical power, soul, afterlife etc.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 13:52, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Yay, sarcasm truly helps in this discussion. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 14:00, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Where is Shak when you need him? He is the one who posts list of staff on anime episodes and voice actors etc.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 14:49, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

I was just about the ask that. Credits are the only thing that could help solve this, I think. I did pay attention to the credits, but I don't recall seeing a specific VA listed as Shinju. I could have missed it though. There's also a chance this was one of those other/supplemental voices, that get lumped together. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:38, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Shinju wasn't shown in Cast-section, so it's most likely that "other/supplemental"-thing.--JouXIII (talk) 15:51, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Oh well, another unexplained thing then on the long list on unexplained things. I don't think we can say it was Black Zetsu without a huge dosage of faith forced down people's throats though.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 16:24, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

It didn't sound like Black Zetsu at all and it being BZ doesn't make sense either. He was attached to Obito, in another dimension, with Obito currently being in control of him. There was no way that was BZ, if anything, it was Kaguya talking to Madara. But her voice didn't sound the same because she was merged with the tree and she is technically the Ten-Tails that is inside of him. So it would make sense that her voice would sound all deep and masculine as the Ten-Tails/Shinju. In the Manga, I thought it was just Kaguya, but now, I'm not so sure. But I think it was her just with a deeper voice due to not being in her normal humanoid form, since she's a giant beast and tree right now. --Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 (talk) 18:34, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Here's how I see it. The voice was Kaguya's. Most of this is probably a leap of faith, but follow me along here:

Madara knows of Kaguya. He recited the legend to Hashirama after all.
Madara was shocked when the tree spoke, even asking it who it was, so that rules out Black Zetsu for me.
After Madara takes the tree himself, he says "I see. The Shinju itself is..." and pauses.
Not even a few panels later (few minutes in the anime), that creepy shadow of Kaguya's eyes appears in Madara's head.

Going off of that, the voice was Kaguya's and Madara actually realized what the Shinju was after absorbing it, but likely didn't predict that she'd use him to resurrect. Just my two cents. ~ Ten Tailed Fox

20:26, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

^ Finally, someone who gets this shit...the panel of kaguya's doujutsus hints that madara came to the realization that shinju is indeed kaguya...he didn't know it before hence the "OOOOOHHHH...I SEE WHAT U DID THERE [KAGUYA]"...& though I hate to repeat my self...people...there is no kaguya or shinju individually...so when I say that some changes were originated in their merger it means that for example shinju became sentient...because kaguya's sentience now exist in it...think of them as a pack for every discussion to come in the future... --DARK ZERO--talk 22:38, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

Works fine with me. Either Shinju is sentient or it was Kaguya.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 20:43, August 13, 2015 (UTC)

character

Is there a reason this is treated as a character (specifically the choice of infobox)? I don't remember it doing anything suggesting consciousness, and the existence of more than one suggests it's more like toad than Gamabunta. ~Snapper T o 06:14, January 24, 2016 (UTC)

It talked to Madara, that's a character. --Shrek4chan (talk) 08:09, January 24, 2016 (UTC)

See above for why talking to Madara doesn't proof that the tree is sentient. The fourth databook doesn't give it an infobox, either. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 11:24, January 24, 2016 (UTC)

I believe it was treated as a character (instead of a tool) is an offshoot of Madara's speech about the tree turning into the Ten-Tails because it was pissed at humans for taking its chakra, and was not changed into a tool when it was revealed that wasnt the case.--TheUltimate3

^(talk) 13:20, January 24, 2016 (UTC)

But should it really be a tool though or just a general info page? --Cerez365^™

^(talk) 15:07, January 24, 2016 (UTC)

seel-the databooks didn't give the tailed beasts infoboxes either. Munchvtec (talk) 15:36, January 24, 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sensing a lot of opposition to treating it as a general topic, certainly with a trivia point about maybe it talks. Yes/no?

What about the name? Do we want to translate it or leave it Shinju? Unlike "Dawn", "God Tree" (or whatever) captures the topic succinctly. ~Snapper T o 17:44, January 24, 2016 (UTC)

I don't mind if it's changed but i believe the name should remain. Munchvtec# (talk) 18:24, January 24, 2016 (UTC)

Well, it's implied the tree has some sort of mind, so why tool?--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 03:38, January 25, 2016 (UTC)

Well, i guess it should stay as is or...we could make the page a naruto term one like Jashin. Munchvtec (talk) 03:44, January 25, 2016 (UTC)

Seeing as there are at least two Shinju in existence, it's now more like a species than a single character, isn't it? Also, support translating it as God Tree. Calling it Shinju never made sense in the first place, since that's more of a descriptor used by humans (like "Nine-Tails") than a proper name (like "Kurama"). At the time, some may have thought it was the Ten-Tails' proper name, but now we know better.--BeyondRed (talk) 06:57, January 25, 2016 (UTC)

anime stuff

The beginning of the episode shows something that would eventually grow into the Shinju, fall from the sky.
The episode shows the "Rinne Sharingan Shinju" same as Obito made, grow from the ordinary looking tree Shinju...

Should be somehow added/noted.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 18:08, May 12, 2016 (UTC)