Talk: Izanami/Archive 1

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ultimate ??

i dont remember it as being said the ULTIMATE dojutsu of the uchiha Salil dabholkar (talk) 11:53, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

Chapter 581, pagte 15 — "the ultimate dōjutsu that holds his destiny" Blackstar1 (talk) 12:00, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

Opposite to Izanagi

Seing as izanagi creates illusion to reality wouldnt this probably make reality an illusion? (zenryoku90) --85.159.131.196 (talk) 12:04, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

It may be a speculation as of now Salil dabholkar (talk) 12:12, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

From the description of Izanagi, the technique removes the boundaries between reality and illusion within the user's own personal space, meaning it actually covers both of the options mentioned above by Zenryoku90. This is the reason why Danzō didn't die when struck by Sasuke's arrows, as he made the reality of his own death into a mere illusion. Blackstar1 (talk) 12:23, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

From Itachi's comparison of the two techniques (i.e izanagi alters destiny while izanami decides it) one could deduce that while Izanagi will allow its user to avoid death, thus altering destiny, Izanami could bring death, thus deciding destiny. However until its shown, this is pure speculation Nate Alter (talk) 09:39, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

All the Kami

Amaterasu - Sarutahiko - Ame no Uzume - Inari - Izanagi - Izanami - Susanoo - Tsukuyomi

Sorry if this is speculation, but does anyone see a link? Does the Uchiha clan possess another three jutsu's besides the current five? Derigar (talk) 12:08, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

until its shown they only possess the potential for the already shown ones. --Kotoamatsukami (talk) 12:18, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

Doubt it. Inari is already the name of a character. Also, The five that have jutsus already are all related. The main Mangekeyo Jutsus are Izanagi and Izanami (husband and wife/brother and sister), Amaterasu, Susanoo and Tsukuyomi (all of whom are born from Izanagi after he fails to rescue Izanami). The other gods you listed appear along side these gods but are not related in the same way.--210.56.88.85 (talk) 12:53, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

There are more kami than just those eight, you know. According to tradition, there are eight million, even. —ShounenSuki ^{(talk | contribs | translations)} 12:54, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

Izanagi and presumably Izanami are not MS jutsu.

--Kotoamatsukami (talk) 12:55, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm, I see! Thanks :D Derigar (talk) 13:23, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

possible ?

So basically this technique judges the one it's casted upon and decides if he/she is worthy to live based on his/her deeds ? --Elveonora (talk) 12:47, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

The way Itachi spoke of it, it simply allows one to decide destiny. Not sure where you got that other stuff about being worthy from. Next week (SO LONG) should clear thinbs up Skitts (talk) 13:01, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

Izanami being a goddess of both creation and death and the part about deciding destiny made it sound like "Izanami" will judge Kabuto or something. --Elveonora (talk) 13:03, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

Could be. Too bad Kishi had to leave us hanging high and dry. xD Skitts (talk) 13:26, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

Mangekyo

Hm, since Itachi's MS is activated as he says that this technique is prepared, shouldn't that mean it's an MS technique? Skitts (talk) 13:05, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

Read above. Izanagi can be used just with ordinary Sharingan, if this is a pair to it then I dunno. --Elveonora (talk) 13:07, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

I don't see how anyone could know that as now. :3 It's not like the situation with Edo Madara using Susanoo while having the Rinnegan active, since we already knew that it was an MS technique. We've only seen it used (rather, as of now prepared to be used) while an MS was active. Skitts (talk) 13:10, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, so see ya one week later ; ) For the time being, I see no problem with it being listed as a MS technique. It's neither right or wrong for the time being, when we know it's gonna be changed. --Elveonora (talk) 13:14, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

This is exciting ^_^ But I hope this technique is some kind of Deus Ex Machina to the current Kabutomaru-Uchiha brothers situation. Derigar (talk) 13:27, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

I can live with it being listed as an MS technique for now, but as this technique makes a pair with Izanagi, I think it's highly probable that it can be used with a regular Sharingan, as it was also said to consume its light. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:40, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

I find it a very, very long shot that this is a MS tech and not a Sharingan tech. If it's a parent technique to Izanagi and it's meant to make a pair with it as the Uchiha clan's ultimate visual techniques, why would be used as an MS tech, as the MS is an extremely rare power to activate? Darksusanoo (talk) 03:54, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, givin' now my opinion. I agree putting it as an MS tech. for now, until the Manga 582 was released. --IndxcvNovelist (Talk to Me) 14:30, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

While I agree that there isn't much issue in listing the technique as MS for now, given that it's said to be paired with Izanagi and that Itachi has had his MS activated since chapter 578, if we're ultimately not given confirmation either way, I'd vote for changing it to a Sharingan tech instead. Blackstar1 (talk) 15:15, April 5, 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Black. Unless more information is released, this should be changed to a regular Sharingan technique. Derigar (talk) 16:25, April 6, 2012 (UTC)

Revisited

I'm not sure who removed it since we came to a consensus to keep it until proven otherwise, but seeing as Itachi said that he was using the technique in the latest chapter while his Mangekyo was still active, shouldn't this be [re-]labeled as a MS technique? We even see one of Itachi's eyes darkened out at the chapter's end. Skitts (talk) 16:59, May 9, 2012 (UTC)

Going from Izanagi, I don't think the Mangekyō alone is required to use it. I thought his eye went out because of him "degenerating" (O.o?) after being cut.--Cerez365^™(talk) 17:06, May 9, 2012 (UTC)

But this isn't Izanagi and was called the ultimate Uchiha Dojutsu, so it doesn't have to be the same. :p Also, if you look on the last page (and the page before), you see Itachi activating the technique, and then on the last page you see him still using a seal and in the last panel that he's in, his right eye is darkened out, while his left one isn't. o3o Skitts (talk) 17:11, May 9, 2012 (UTC)

It's possible that you do need the Mangekyō Sharingan but I'd go off the precedence of its counterpart Izanagi which doesn't require you to have the Mangekyō for this one. That's the page, did you notice that Kabuto was "crying" as well xD? --Cerez365^™(talk) 17:14, May 9, 2012 (UTC)

Yes and I smirked when I saw that. :{D Skitts (talk) 17:16, May 9, 2012 (UTC)

The Last Time... I Hope

Okay, seeing as Itachi has kept his Mangeko Sharingan activated the entire time as he prepared and then activated Izanami, it's rather safe to say that this technique requires the Mangekyo, no? Skitts (talk) 12:33, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

Yep. TricksterKing (talk) 12:44, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

I think it's safe to say that this technique requires the Mangekyo —¤S@lil ¤ (T@lk) 12:48, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

Still would leave it as just Sharingan. It's not a case where he's actually deactivated his MS (at least from where I checked and what I remember) he hasn't not had it activated since chapter 578. If it was that he activated it when he was speaking about the technique, maybe, but I don't think that's the case here.--Cerez365^™(talk) 13:08, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

Itachi was using Susano'o for the last few chapters, keeping Susano'o on stand-by or 'hold' for caution and defence it is not surprising he kept mangekyo on for quick rescue. Itachi stated himself anyone in his clan (with sharingan {normal}) could use it. /Question Yumeyo-yuki (talk) 18:38, May 17, 2012 (UTC)

And again

When Itachi described the Jutsu, his MS is seen in the background while he says what you have to do for Izanami. Isn't that enough proof? :/ Seelentau 愛^議 12:44, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

But when he tells the history of the technique clansmen are seen with the Sharingan. The MS is even more rare than the Sharingan, all of those people didn't have it.--Cerez365^™(talk) 12:47, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

At that time, he was talking about Izanagi and how the Uchiha spammed it in wars. Seelentau 愛^議 13:08, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

True, but! He said Izanami was created to stop Izanagi yes? And when he said that the enlightened(?) eye above the "Izanagi eyes" are shown, and that's a Sharingan. I just think that too little people had the Mangekyō Sharingan in history for a technique that could stop Izanagi to stem from it and have so many people using it and even being labelled a kinjutsu and such.--Cerez365^™(talk) 13:14, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

According to Itachi, there were actually quite a few Uchiha that obtained the MS throughout the ages, though there were many failures as well. If I remember correctly, he also mentions that many of the failures were those whom tried to steal their relatives' eyes to progress to the EMS like Madara. Just wanna point out that I totally called the only way to escape Izanami like over a weeks ago. :{D Skitts (talk) 13:29, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Actually he mentioned that a lot of Uchiha tried to obtain the MS and EMS and failed...plus he mentioned that Izanami was created as a punishment technique...and since the MS is by itself an extremely rare power to acquire, i don't see the practicality of making such a technique, if it's dependant of a rare and expirable ocular power...only two people have noted to have the EMS...if Izamani was dependant on it, it would defeat the purpose as eventually the caster would lose his eyesight and the ability to perform these techniques from overuse. Darksusanoo (talk) 17:00, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

Genjutsu

By taking into account the entire conversation itachi has with sasuke, this technique is obviously genjutsu. It is highly doubtful Itachi would say that it affects the opponent regardless of their senses if it wasn't. Most ninjutsu do that already, and the only type of jutsu that effects the senses are genjutsu (with exceptions, such as those that utilize light and sound to paralyze/disable the enemy. But its highly unlikely itachi will pull out one of those, given the situation and kabuto's immunity to things of that nature). Also, seeing that this jutsu is the counterpart of izanagi, its likely to be yin-yang release as well. Of course, there's nothing wrong with waiting until the next chapter for this to be confirmed, but I'm just impatient. :P --128.123.203.94 (talk) 19:16, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

All Genjutsu affect the opponent via their senses. That leads to the possibility that this isn't genjutsu. Skitts (talk) 19:39, April 4, 2012 (UTC)

it can still be a genjutsu that affects the user in some way, similar to izanagi. just because kabuto blocks his senses, it doesn't mean that he will be immune to a genjutsu cast upon the user. —This unsigned comment was made by Mr.Oakzzz (talk • contribs) .

i think is a genjutsu that not use any sense as medium (some genjutsu of the sharingan use the eyes something else like the toad singing use the sound) is a genjutsu that affect the reality itself (like izanagi change the reality itself for the user alone) --Nitram86 (talk) 23:15, April 6, 2012 (UTC)

Reqirements

Since Izanagi requires both the power of the Senji and the Uchiha, should Izanami not requires the same things as well?--69.242.113.193 (talk) 16:29, April 8, 2012 (UTC)

Possibly, but we don't know that yet. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:36, April 8, 2012 (UTC)

The fact that Izanagi was deemed a Kinjutsu by and obviously had been used by Uchiha in the past, I doubt that Senju DNA is a necessity. Unless it's really just that easy to integrate another's DNA into your own. Skitts (talk) 04:21, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

itachi doesnt have senju dna and since itachi was able to use it, i doubt you would need senju dna.Tris0928 (talk) 04:38, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

Unless Hashi boobs are being sold on black market ...--Elveonora (talk) 15:50, April 9, 2012 (UTC)

Itachi might have obtained it from somewhere. So possibility is there Salil₂₂₁₂™ 12:44, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

Senju DNA perfects Izanagi. It's possibly the same for Izanami too. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 13:46, April 11, 2012 (UTC)

This pretty much confirms that Senju DNA iSN'T needed for Uchiha clan Sharingan powers ... unless Itachi also has Hashi's face under the cloak --Elveonora (talk) 14:45, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

Really? You know this isn't a forum... Tobi I believe it was , said himself that to make perfect use of the technique DNA from both lineages were required not that it couldn't be used without it. What difference does Itachi's use without it make? The effects of Izanagi is very different from that of Izanami.--Cerez365^™(talk) 14:52, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

The difference that Senju DNA is used for nothing more than to boost one's chakra/energy (thus how long it lasts) Uchiha labelled it forbidden, so they had to use it before ... unless each of them had Hashi's face on their chest.--Elveonora (talk) 15:00, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

What's your point? If the purpose to of a cup is to hold beverages, doesn't it serve a purpose in the whole process nonetheless even though you could use your hands? The fourth section of the Izanagi article speaks exactly to that. The article at no point says that it can't be done without it. From the little we've seen of Izanami, I'm not even sure how you jump to this conclusion that Senju DNA wouldn't boost it in some way or the other.--Cerez365^™(talk) 15:09, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

That's not what I'm saying ... sure it helps. The article for Izanagi says: "to make full use of the Izanagi, the user also must have genetic traits of the Senju" I don't think that's correct ... better wording would be "to make better use" because full use sounds like without the Senju stuff, it's effects are dfferent/incomplete. And again, there's no indication the Senju DNA is used for anything else than to boost one's chakra/energy in order to lengthen the duration of Izanagi and to have chakra reserves high enough in order to use it more than once --Elveonora (talk) 15:38, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

We have never seen Izanagi used by someone without Senju DNA to compare the effects, so what exactly are you basing this assumption on? Tobi stated to Konan that Izanagi was only available to those who wielded both Senju and Uchiha DNA. It's all there in chapter 510, pages 10-13 or there about.--Cerez365^™(talk) 16:30, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

How could it be forbidden by the Uchiha if that's the case ? That would imply that Uchiha were modifying themselves with Senju cells or what. and Izanami apparently doesn't require it--Elveonora (talk) 23:05, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

You still don't get it. Yes the Uchiha are able to use Izanagi on its own- that is without Senju DNA aiding them. However that form of Izanagi will not be in its perfect/complete form. That means they can use it→ go blind→ and pull off the technique. Acquiring Senju DNA allows them, to use a perfect form of the technique as seen with Tobi, who was able to withstand an explosion that lasted 10 minutes with one eye instead of sacrificing ten-one minute Sharingans (He noted that Danzo's was imperfect because he was unable to control the Senju DNA). No one said all Uchiha were going around poaching off the Senju to get their DNA in order to use it. I highly doubt they'd even been using it since the repercussions are terrible. As for Izanami, no it wouldn't seem that it requires Senju DNA as Izanami doesn't venture into the world of Yang Release as Izanagi does.--Cerez365^™(talk) 23:18, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

Debut chapter

Shouldn't its debut chapter be the chapter when it is actually used? —¤ S@lil ¤ (T@lk) 08:04, May 15, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, but the jutsu wasn't still used. Wait for the next chapter. —IndxcvNovelist (Talk to Me|My Wiki) 08:09, May 15, 2012 (UTC)

So till then shouldn't the space be blank? —¤ S@lil ¤ (T@lk) 08:13, May 15, 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, it's been blanked. TricksterKing (talk) 10:08, May 15, 2012 (UTC)

Yin-Yang Release

Shouldn't this be Yin-Yang Release, given that its just like izanagi, but effects the opponent, rather than the user? MangekyoSasuke (talk) 12:25, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

Nope. This has nothing in common from the little we know on the technique and ability that utilizes said Release. In any case, we're going to wait for exposition before adding anything. Skitts (talk) 12:30, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

What do you mean, nothing in common? They both alter someone's destiny. Changing destinies is only something that can be done by altering reality, and that's something that can only be done with Yin-Yang Release. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 22:22, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

No. For one we have never been told what natures it entail if any. Secondly, nothing here speaks to what Yang Release is- there is no imagination taking on form here. Thirdly, not because its counterpart is Yin-Yang Release means this automatically is. We can wait for that information to be given.--Cerez365^™(talk) 22:45, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

I'm for adding Yin-Yang Release to the infobox. Izanagi and this are only known kinds of genjutsu with different effects--Elveonora (talk) 21:19, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

You didn't give any valid reason. Izanami has way more in common with, say, Tsukuyomi than it does Izanagi. It traps them in any illusion in their mind; Izanagi allows the user to warp reality by removing the boundaries between imagination and reality, not to mention it is cast on oneself. Izanami has shown nothing in common with the two known Yin-Yang Release uses: C:? What was the preation of All Things or it's sister technique Izanagi, nor was it stated to be this release or derived from CoAT. So nope. o3o Skitts (talk) 21:46, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

From Itachi's explanation it's clear that it's not a regular genjutsu but uses the same process/workings as Izanagi ... It's basically the same technique, but instead of being cast on yourself and altering events, it's cast on someone else and repeat events. It takes away vision just like Izanagi does, supporting that it's the same mechanism just used differently--Elveonora (talk) 22:10, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Itachi's explanation was that it locks them within a loop of events in their mind, which continues evermore until the user accepts the reality before them. That's it. It's not basically the same technique and its effect is wildly different, as is its usage. The only commonality is the blinding of the eye, that's it. It has nothing in common with the actual Yin-Yang Releases we've seen/been told of thus far. Skitts (talk) 22:41, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

[illegal scanlation link] [illegal scanlation link] --Elveonora (talk) 22:56, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

? What was the point in posting those explanations of the technique? To end this nonsense of whether or not it takes place in the mind, this page [illegal scanlation link] clears up any ntion that it's not like other Genjutsu. Not to mention the eyes of the Itachi Kabuto is fighting has both MS. Anywho, to wrap this up, Izanami's effect has shown nothing in common with the other 2 Yin-Yang Releases, it was not stated or implied to be of that Nature and it was not derived/based on the Sage's Creation ability. It will not be added until one of those requirements is met. Skitts (talk) 23:15, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Izanami Itachi's eyes still have both MS because the time/events repeat themselves so the eye can't go blind --Elveonora (talk) 23:30, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

So ...

Kabuto is trapped in an endless fight against Itachi that he can't win ? 0_0 So if Kabuto has chosen his destiny by accepting himself being a failure, he would not have to fight Itachi ... right ? Because the events of Izanami are those that he himself has helped to achieve.--Elveonora (talk) 14:43, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

I'm assuming that if Kabuto decides to continue raging against Itachi in his mind, destiny will continue to loop itself as Itachi wishes it. Otherwise I'd assume it can change.--Cerez365^™(talk) 14:53, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

But as long as Kabuto won't accept his failure, he will be trapped in his own arrogance ? Just asking to make sure I understood what it does.--Elveonora (talk) 15:02, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

Itachi did say that Kabuto would be the one to decide his destiny, which I assume means he has to give up in order to stop the loop, seeing as continuing to fight only causes it to repeat evermore. Skitts (talk) 01:33, May 18, 2012 (UTC)

Giving up = admitting himself to be a loser, so he is about to stay there for ... 4ever :D--Elveonora (talk) 03:23, May 18, 2012 (UTC)

Just a note

Should we classify Izanami as a genjutsu ? I mean, it really isn't one ... Genjutsu is just an illusion controlled by the user. Izanami is more like a Limbo-state. It's more like an alternative dimension cast between the user and the victim as Kabuto has control over Izanami as long as he change his actions ... another reason why it isn't a genjutsu is because Sasuke is there ... if you have seen the film "Cube" it's basically time/space = reality shifting itself. Itachi also neither referred to it as illusion --Elveonora (talk) 05:36, May 18, 2012 (UTC)

Only one eye?

In Chapter 586 Page 17, Itachi's other eye has mangekyō sharingan —¤S@lil ¤ (T@lk) 15:26, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

Aye. You only sacrifice the eye you use to cast the technique.--Cerez365^™(talk) 15:28, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

But in the above frame, both his eyes have mangekyō sharingan —¤S@lil ¤ (T@lk) 15:32, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

That was part of the illusion Kabuto was in. We see the real Itachi's eye go blind on page 4.--Deva 27 15:33, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

when the tecnique begin??

i was thinking about the moment when the tecnique begin the loop start with the clash between itachi and kabuto before cutting his horn so the tecnique start here [removed illegal scanlation link] and all the fight was in the illusion of izanami?? --Nitram86 (talk) 19:58, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

The technique wasn't activated until this chapter, so it was probably activated when Itachi's left MS went blind. Skitts (talk) 21:03, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

question

are izanagi and izanami the shinto counterparts to christianities "adam and eve"?, just curious --Caseather (talk) 20:50, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

Adam and Eve weren't gods. To me their stories seem too different for that.--Cerez365^™(talk) 20:57, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

I don't see any possible connections with Adam and Eve. Skitts (talk) 21:05, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

The story of Izanagi and Izanami is actually more similar to a Greek story. I should know, since I did a project on it for school. Ever heard the story of Orpheus and Eurydice?--NinjaSheik 21:08, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

no--Caseather (talk) 22:06, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

I have and they are similar stories but the one of Eurydice and Orpheus ended more happily than that of Izanagi and Izanai I think.--Cerez365^™(talk) 22:48, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

actualy no. orpheus entered hades the underworld, used the music from his lyre to convince the death god hades and then hades said he could take eurydice back home if he walked out of hades without looking back but trusting that eurydice was following him out, when he got near the exit he got suspicious that hades played a trick on him and turned around seen eurydice right there, eurydice was then pulled back down into the pits of the underworld. i don't think it's a happy ending in either story.98.26.240.179 (talk) 22:58, May 16, 2012 (UTC)yomiko-chan

Oh yeah. I had forgotten that last bit.--Cerez365^™(talk) 23:18, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

Regeneration of the eye

Because Itachi is a revived corpse and all damage done to him regenerates, is it possible that the eye sealed by this technique will also regenerate? 68.39.240.90 (talk) 23:54, May 16, 2012 (UTC)

This is unknown at the moment.--Deva 27 00:08, May 17, 2012 (UTC)

(E/C) As evidenced by Mū's Splitting Technique and the 2nd Mizukage's Steaming Danger Tyranny, no. Those whom are reincarnated by Edo Tensei are still susceptible to the drawbacks of their own techniques. Even post-reincarnation, Edo Itachi's eye still bleeds when he uses Amaterasu. Also, Edo Tensei regenerateshysical damage. Skitts (talk) 00:13, May 17, 2012 (UTC)

Possible article's misconception

" Whilst under the effects of the technique, the target will stand motionlessly as the loop of events continually replays inside their mind.[3]!"

I think that this line would be deleted, in waiting of the new developments of the next chapter. I'm not sure that izanami is a sort of illusion in the mind of the victim, sincerely the last panel seemed to me happens in the real world, with Kabuto that aware of the loop resigned himself to keep fighting and Itachi that confort him for the loss. --JK88 (talk) 13:02, May 17, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, it's not a misconception. Try reading the chapter again. The Itachi that Kabuto is fighting in the loop has both of his Mangekyo, while the Itachi that has his hand on Kabuto's head still retains a blind left MS that had gone blind earlier in the chapter. Makes it obvious that Kabuto is in a mental illusion, especially since the Kabuto Itachi has his hand on is stationary. Skitts (talk) 13:57, May 17, 2012 (UTC)

I re-read the chapter more times (an not just for Izanami), but I'm not convinced and I repeat that I think that before we need the explanation of the jutsu in the next chapter. Anyway, if this is an illusion and not the reality, what is the meaning of the line "the jutsu that decide the fate"? I know that an illusion would be more coherent with the power of the sharingan, but I think that this jutsu has effect on the manipulation of real events that end to happen ever in a predetermined way (so an influence on the destiny of the things).

And about the lack of the eye in Itachi in the last page in the hypotetical return to the reality, actually we seen him without the left eye also during the previous loops, exactly here: [illegal scanlation link]

However you may be right, it's just that I don't understand the meaning of "decide the destiny" if this is really something that happened only in the mind of the victim...JK88 (talk) 15:12, May 17, 2012 (UTC)

<editconflictx3/>I thought at first that it was happening in the real world but I doubt the whole Itachi patting Kabuto on him head bit since I don't think the current Kabuto would stop raging so easily and where did all the snake parts go? We can easily wait until next week, however, and see if we get a proper description of the technique from Kishimoto. I also don't think Izanami took hold until that same page 9 or whatever. As for "the justsu that decides fate" that's pretty straight forward:

1. if Kabuto continues to fight→ he'll continue to look.
2. If he does something else→ different "path" opens up.

At least that's how I look at it.--Cerez365^™(talk) 15:20, May 17, 2012 (UTC)

Understand, anyway I more convinced now, I think that effectively it's an illusion. The last scene is too much repentine to be like I've interpreted it (Itachi patting Kabuto) and, also is I prefer a decision of the real fate, like I've said make more sense that the jutsu is actually the ultimate illusion/mind-rape for the sharingan. Although to be a jutsu in pair with Izanagi, it was logical to think that his effects were passed on the reality like in the Danzou's fight and his continuous "reset deaths" effectively happened.

EDIT: Additionally, I think that the jutsu didn't start in the previous chapters, but just at the end of the last chapter or in this chapter with the page that I've posted before (with the disappearence of the Itachi's eye to mark the start of Izanami). This also if uses events taken from chapter 580. In the loops we can see that sasuke has practically no role (it's logical) while until the last chapter, there were continuous conversations between him and Itachi, also regarding the wait for the beginning of the effects of Izanami.--JK88 (talk) 15:37, May 17, 2012 (UTC)

Just pointing out that Tobi's eye went blind more than 10 minutes after his usage of Izanagi - when the effect has ended. We don't know when Itachi has already used it --Elveonora (talk) 16:39, May 17, 2012 (UTC)

You are right, anyway in the Tobi's fight, Konan said that his intangibility has a limit of 5 minutes; then Tobi said to posses a so called "perfect" Izanagi, another thing in comparison with the jutsu of Danzou. So seems that what makes different Tobi's Izanagi from that of Danzou is the time-limit, in the case of Tobi at least of 5 minutes (admitting that for the first 5 minutes of explosion he used his intangibility to escape from the explosions). Sorry for the off-topic.--JK88 (talk) 17:26, May 17, 2012 (UTC)

Yep, my point that he could cast Izanami before his eye went blank--Elveonora (talk) 22:19, May 17, 2012 (UTC)

Just because Izanagi behave in that way (blanking the eye after the technique has played out) doesn't make that true for Izanami and in fact has been shown false in 586. The actual technique didn't begin to take effect until here [removed illegal scanlation link], where Itachi caused Kabuto to attack him in the exact way he had done a few chapters previously. As soon as that happened, the loop began after the eye went blind. The final page [removed illegal scanlation link] shows this best. On the top left panel, Itachi's Left Mangekyo is still there, even though when he initially caused Kabuto to repeat a previous action to start the the loop, it had vanished. Then, right under that panel, we see that Itachi's Mangekyo was actually still blinded, thus Kabuto is indeed in an illusion in his mindscape and has been there since about page 4. Skitts (talk) 01:24, May 18, 2012 (UTC)

I disagree the whole thing is just a illusion. In fact, after re-read the article I noticed that Kishimoto put the proof the whole loop was real: [1]

On the marked panel you can see three cut horns, proving the whole thing was real. Kabuto then appears motionless because is grief-stricken after realize he is trapped. Adept-eX (talk) 17:20, May 18, 2012 (UTC)

I know it isn't a genjutsu, people disagree though "_" http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Izanami#Just_a_note ... EDIT: Also the technique have begun when Itachi first mentions Izanami and tells Sasuke to stay close, not in this chapter --Elveonora (talk) 17:33, May 18, 2012 (UTC)

@Adept-eX: The problem with your evidence is that the panel immediately afterwards depicts Itachi with both of his Mangekyō still active, which most believe signifies the events that are occurring within the illusion. Having the remnants of each severed horn persist throughout, doesn't really contradict this belief.

@Elveonora: From the evidence available, you really can't say that this isn't a genjutsu with any certainty. The current consensus of how the technique works, i.e. that Kabuto is trapped within an illusion, means that it's correct to classify it as such. Because of that, the classification should remain until this interpretation of the technique changes, which I personally believe you'll find next to impossible to do currently, as there isn't really the necessary information available to disapprove it from what we’ve seen. Blackstar1 (talk) 18:24, May 18, 2012 (UTC)

If it was just an illusion like any other, it would not make it that much different from Tsukuyomi. We know that genjutsu affect 5 senses, but this does not so basically it contradicts the definition of genjutsu. Not to mention you can't control the course of a genjutsu without applying another one on top of that (with Sharingan for example) Kabuto could just make harm to himself in the "illusion" to escape it's effects by putting himself into unconsciousness. But his cut horns are in the "real world" indicating that any harm made to him in Izanami is real. But you are right, maybe next chapter sheds more light on this or 4th databook --Elveonora (talk) 18:54, May 18, 2012 (UTC)

Not quite Elveonora. Izanami affects your senses, what Itachi said was that it can affect your opponent regardless of their 5 sense (as in, regardless if they're blocked off), thus it contradicts nothing. Also, to stop a Genjutsu, you have to hurt your actual self, not your illusory self. Kabuto had one of his horns already too. Thus, as all things have shown so far (check my previous post), Kabuto is without a doubt in an illusion. Also, if you note on that last page, the 3 horns that are cut off are illusory as well. Look at the last panel. Kabuto has 2 of his 4 horns show, meaning he doesn't have 3 cut off in reality and likely has all 4. Skitts (talk) 22:46, May 18, 2012 (UTC)

Loop or something else

"This technique allows the user to trap an intended target within a repeating 'loop' of events that have already occurred." Is that all this genjutsu does? What if that's just what Itachi intended for Kabuto, and instead, Izanami in general can allow the user to cast any scenario he/she wants, like Tsukuyomi, where the user has absolute control of the nightmare realm? Yatanogarasu (Talk) 21:43, May 18, 2012 (UTC)

That's speculation, we only deal with what has been shown.--Deva 27 22:00, May 18, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but saying it specifically cast the "loop" is also speculation, we should say something like "When Itachi used it against Kabuto" or something of the sort. Yatanogarasu (Talk) 04:13, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

Though I think the technique does a lot more than just looping, if we add anything else it would be speculation until we get more info. Saying when Itachi used it against Kabuto would be saying that it wouldn't do the same to others which might be wrong.--Cerez365^™(talk) 11:45, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

Except that is what Itachi specifically said it was. You're assuming it can do something else, which hasn't even been hinted to.--Deva 27 13:25, May 19, 2012 (UTC)--Deva 27 13:25, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

Creation of All Things

Why is Creation of All Things Technique listed as the parent? ~ Ten Tailed Fox 03:44, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

No idea. I don't think it should be list, at least not yet. The one argument I can see for it is that it's Izanagi's parent technique, and since this is Izanagi's counterpart, sibling technique, it would have the same parent. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 03:58, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

I assumed that's why it was added as well. Them being sibling techniques.--Cerez365^™(talk) 11:52, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

Even then, it should remain out of the infobox for the time being. For example, I have a half-sister, but she (obviously) has a parent I am not related to, despite us being siblings. Skitts (talk) 14:19, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

Lol, believe me or not Skitts but I knew someone would bring up what you said. Since it's a pair to Izanagi, the parent technique should be the same. You can't compare technique with people. If Creation of all things is parent to Izanagi and Izanami is a twin to that, the parent is the same --Elveonora (talk) 16:09, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

Justu aren't people. Sister techniques do not necessarily need the same parent; Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi make up a pair, but one is Genjutsu and the other is a powerful Ninjutsu, for example. No similar parent. Creation of all things allows the user to create and breathe life into objects. Izanagi uses the same principle to alternate the user's reality. So far, Izanami has only been shown as a vastly more powerful version of an average genjutsu (creating a loop of events in the user's mind). So not only does it not have properties of Creation of All Things or Izanagi for that matter, it has never been stated to be related to the Sage's ability like Izanagi had. Therefore it is speculation to assume it is a child technique of Creation of All Things. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 16:19, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

If that's the way how to put it, you are right. Sorry, I should have made a section before the edit.--Elveonora (talk) 16:23, May 19, 2012 (UTC)

Punishment as trivia or main article?

Should the part about this skill being used as punishment for the Uchiha that use Izanagi be in the main article or trivia? Or should we wait for ShounenSuki's translation before adding this? Joshbl56 13:18, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

It can go either way depending on how the article is rewritten.--Cerez365^™(talk) 13:28, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Well, I can't really think of a way to throw it in there casually so I will put it into trivia with a reference. Thanks Cerez for the help. Joshbl56 13:35, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

debut ...

I was right, he used it back then. Should not we change it to 580 ?--Elveonora (talk) 16:02, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

To be honest I'm a tad confused about whether or not it should remain at the point where he actually casts the technique, starts talking about it or when it was actually cast. Either one seems fine to me, I won't nitpick about it.--Cerez365^™(talk) 16:08, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

I'm confused as well ... he starts the recording in 580, executes and introduces the technique in 581 and it ends just recently, thus the actual finalized technique is when Kabuto notices the loop in 586 "_"--Elveonora (talk) 16:15, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

The debut was chapter 586 (page 4). That's when Itachi managed to cause a repeat of what happened in 580 and it was then that his MS went blind as the cost to execute the technique, with the loop beginning right after that. Skitts (talk) 16:19, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

But isn't debut when the technique started or when first mentioned ? 586 is when we see what it does --Elveonora (talk) 16:25, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Both are right since I think there's been instances where both have happened on the wikia. But for people's sanity I think it should probably remain at 586 where we actually see the technique in use vs. when it's cast since it isn't instantaneous like with other techniques (and there's the whole Itachi not mentioning when he started the preparations in 580). So it's a case of the technique being mentioned 580/581 onwards vs. actually being used 586 --Cerez365^™(talk) 16:32, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Actually, is it not possible to add both down? Not the one about talking about it, but him actually starting the jutsu and finally executing the full effects of Izanami? It seems that both times are relevant for this jutsu. Joshbl56 16:36, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Nope. One in the box. We could just simply mention that the process started from 580.--Cerez365^™(talk) 16:41, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

I guess we could mention it... Maybe add the two different times as trivia or something? Joshbl56 16:47, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Stopping the jutsu

We have the way to stop the jutsu twice in the article but I don't know if we should delete one of them or how to merge the parts. The two lines use the fourth and sixth reference and basically say the same thing but could possibly confuse someone. I can't delete either one since it would make the rest of the sentence either incomplete or wrong but I can't merge them either because they are too different. Any help with this please? Joshbl56 16:45, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

One's in the main section and the other's about the creation of the technique. I think both can stay.----Cerez365^™(talk) 16:55, May 23, 2012 (UTC)

Change in events

Should we mention that Izanami seems to replay a loose version of the events, as each time Izanami replays events, they are changed in small ways, like Itachi countering Kabuto but Sasuke was the first to attack him with a Fire Release and some events are kept constant, like the water dripping on his shoulder at a certain time and him having his horn cut off.

It also seems that Izanami kind of keeps a reminder of each event that was replayed as Kabuto was seen with 3 horns on the ground on this page. Joshbl56 02:18, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

From what I can tell, the loop is pretty much the same. For example, even though Kabuto knew (or rather thought he knew) what was going to happen, as soon as he tried to preempt the illusory Itachi countered him and forced it back. But yeah, that other stuff should probably be mentioned. Skitts (talk) 02:50, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

So, mention Izanami doesn't remove any parts that are looped together but instead keeps them there. Should I also try to put in that each loop isn't completely the same but all events still happen at roughly the some time? Also, thanks for your answer Skitts. Joshbl56 02:57, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

Something like that. Basically, whatever the victim does, it appears they cannot deviate from anything, as shown when Kabuto tried to preempt the Fire Release technique before it happened, but the Genjutsu Itachi prevented that from happening. Skitts (talk) 03:09, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

Teensy Question

Didn't Itachi refer to Izanami as the ultimate Uchiha Dojutsu, not one of them as the article says? Skitts (talk) 15:52, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

Thats what I was saying few days ago —¤S@lil ¤ (T@lk) 16:00, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

Source? I'll check the raw then. Seelentau 愛^議 16:20, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

Page 16 of chapter 581. But he called it the ultimate dōjutsu that holds destiny not the ultimate of the clan. He went as far as to call it a pair with Izanagi before or after that. How then could it be greater o.O? --Cerez365^™(talk) 16:31, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

Since Izanagi was said to be "ultimate" and this is used against Izanagi, it makes it even more ultimate ? "_"--Elveonora (talk) 16:37, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

究極  Kyūkyoku indeed means 'ultimate', but I remember Suki-senpai stating that this term isn't as definite as we might think. There can be indeed two ultimate Dōjutsu. Seelentau 愛^議 17:01, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

Isn't Shisui's technique also Ultimate ? :D --Elveonora (talk) 17:30, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

Probably? Get me a source and I'll check it. Seelentau 愛^議 17:35, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

If I remember correctly, Itachi refers to Kotoamatsukami as the 'Ultimate Dojutsu of Uchiha Shisui' ()though that's from memory, so probably not correct). It's in chapter 550, pages 9 & 10. Skitts (talk) 17:42, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

He says 最強 saikyō, which means strongest. Seelentau 愛^議 17:58, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

Basically, if it's a Sharingan genjutsu, and is named after a Shinto deity, it's an "ultimate" technique. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 20:53, May 24, 2012 (UTC)

not kanji

on the infobox on the right side of the article, in the kanji section, it gives the name of the jutsu, yes in japanese, however it's written in katakana, which is NOT kanji. i don't mind if you use the katakana, because that is now the standard, even though a kanji rendering exists, but my main issue is that you're calling something kanji that's not really kanji.

ㄌㄍㄓㄕ (talk) 05:04, August 10, 2012 (UTC)

Our infoboxes only have the field "kanji" so irregardless of whether or not the name is in fact kanji, that's where we have to put it.--Cerez365^™(talk) 10:44, August 10, 2012 (UTC)

Is there a name that encompasses both kanji and katakana? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 15:23, August 10, 2012 (UTC)

Yes, there is: Japanese. Other than that, no. As you all know, Kanji are Chinese characters, while Katakana are Japanese characters which are derived from Kanji. Maybe changing Kanji to Japanese would be good, since that involves both Kanji and Kana. Seelentau 愛^議 17:33, May 5, 2013 (UTC)

Anime depiction

The anime depicts the scene used for the infobox slightly different. It could still be used if it the scene wasn't made by that one artist who draws characters and movements so horribly deformed... Especially the third image just can't be taken from the anime, nothing can be recognised there. What will we do now? Take the first two images from the direct anime adaption and the third from a later scene?Norleon (talk) 15:23, November 7, 2013 (UTC)

I was deeply disappointed for that. I don't know how to make it like the manga depiction. For your question, yes if that later scene from the anime as well and not far away for the other first two scenes. http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a553/anaspet06/Shakhmootssign_zps2a261e68.png^(Contact) 15:38, November 7, 2013 (UTC)

Okay, I will try to find something usable...Norleon (talk) 15:41, November 7, 2013 (UTC)

I could not find a suitable one, and the first one doesn't look that good either...should we use the manga instead? Norleon (talk) 15:53, November 7, 2013 (UTC)

actually, after kabuto got his horn sliced, and attempts to counter Izanami, the surroundings begin to move on its own before Itachi and attempts to attack him before the latter reveals to Sasuke that the fight is already on his head. but, i like the two pics you recently posted. --Pat141elite (talk) 15:58, November 7, 2013 (UTC)

I uploaded an image that should be useful for this purpose. Despite that, it doesn't present its manga deception perfectly. But I think it's acceptable ... Otherwise, it's better to use the manga images for clear deception. Then I'll join you, Norleon for your question. http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a553/anaspet06/Shakhmootssign_zps2a261e68.png^(Contact) 16:28, November 7, 2013 (UTC)

2 questions

I'm not sure if these questions have been discussed before...I made a small search but couldn't find anything...: 1. how can kabuto be under the effect of izanami and at the same time be put under another genjutsu which itachi used to learn how to negate the edo tensei? 2. if itachi is an edo summon...then how can his eye get blind when he's already dead...plus, don't people get invulnerable to damages when they are summoned this way? --DARK ZER06 (talk) 10:51, May 22, 2014 (UTC)

We've seen genjutsu based fights with genjutsu being layered on top genjutsu before, so it's not that a radical notion that one can be affected by more than one genjutsu. About Itachi, Edo summons still suffer the effects of their jutsu. Mū was weaker when he split, Mizukage was weaker when using his exploding clone. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:15, May 22, 2014 (UTC)