translations
One thing is how it is translated, another thing is the name the translators agree on. There is a reason why the name translation of various things have that literaly. Besides consider that the frase Ero-Sennin, is ussualy translated into Pervetet Hermit or Erotic Hermit, only the dub have used Pervy-Sage.
That is why i believe it is Hermit Mode, not Sage Mode. But come on and discuss it. User talk:Gojita
Warts
To whoever is removing the parts about Naruto having warts while in the Hermit Mode, stop. They are seen in his face, arms, back and legs and right forearm. Omnibender - Talk 17:28, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
That is before he perfected it [1]his shirt is off and wearing shorts,he is clearly in hermit mode,and Fukasaku said himself that only his eyes where supposed to change as it was the sign of a true sage so that would be why he doesn't have warts on those areas anymore. Jiraiya never perfected it that is why he had warts unlike naruto now.WolfMaster 01:47, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Then It should be mentioned in the Hermit Mode Section and not the True Hermit Mode Section. - Zero - Talk 06:54, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Just so it's noted, my previous argument was made while Naruto had yet to do the balance on the tile rock thing (as you can see in the date stamp), cause when he practiced with the oil, he still had warts. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 11:18, 21 January 2009 (UTC)
Storing natural energy
It seems like Naruto is able to store natural energy.Since he just now ran out of it from using the complete version of the rasenshuriken means that he doesn't have anything collecting natural energy for him and that he hasn't had the chance to figure out how to collect enrgy while moving either.WolfMaster 20:53, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Natural energy is collected and stored automatically and then used untill it is depleted. Also I'd wait a while longer before I'd say that Naruto hasn't figured out how to overcome the weakness. He surprised us all in the last chapter and I'm sure he has figured out how to overcome the weakness. Wait before you give up on him. - Zero - Talk 06:38, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
If done properly the time it takes to gather Natural energy and the time it takes to deplete should be around the same so that Naruto can continually have Sage chakara avalible to him through the continued replacement of his clones
Sage/Hermit Mode--;
In all honesty, it's basically the same thing. When it all boils down, that is the outcome - though since we have no hard evidence; you can dispute that all you wish. Now, I am sure we can all agree upon Naruto doing the impossible over and over - looking both left and right at the same time. How he does this, I can explain (though I bet most of you already know by now). When he left the Frog Mountain, Mount Myokubason (I cannot spell it for the love of god); he created two Kagebunshin to leave behind and collect the natural energy/senjutsu chakra. He had been in Sage Mode and left the mountain, appearing in Konohagakure safe, sound, and in Sage Mode -- as the fight with Pein progresses, he gradually depletes his Sage Chakra. He then takes the scroll that he now has, and uses it to reverse summon one clone from the mountain, and then dispersing it - thus giving him back his sage chakra and regular chakra (just like when happens when they disperse normally, their unused chakra gets split again, and their knowledge does too). So he gets his chakra back and returns into Sage Mode. Looking left and right at the same time; and gathering senjutsu chakra while moving~
Though this transformation was "imperfect" he was able to use the sage mode to it's full potential, as the changes were just on the "outside" this comment seems unneasry and not backed up by evidence. He didnt use frog katas during close combat as an example and because the natural energy wasnt balanced there is reason to believe it was more than cosmetic
Activating Body
If Fakasuka said that it activates the body and this is the last piece of information from his training. So it should be put, and I put like eight gates because it also activates the body in a number of ways like hermit mode. So I say we should put that little piece of information. Cooltamerboy (talk) 21:03, 23 July 2009 (UTC).
- Your comparison to the Eight Gates is completely unnecessary. The fact that Sage Mode provides a number of abilities is mentioned several times. ~SnapperTo 21:55, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Not number of abilities. I mean that it does things to the body other than allow natural chakra which is yet to be explained what it did to the body. It is similar to the eight gates because it also does things to the body. It might even be doing the same things as the Eight Gates. Now you know why? Cooltamerboy (talk) 22:08, 23 July 2009 (UTC).
- I'd call anything beneficial it does to the body (ie. improved durability) an ability. Again, comparing it to Eight Gates is unnecessary. ~SnapperTo 03:33, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Ok. I just have one question for you. It might have activated the same things that the eight gates activated right (as the things hermit mode has done are extremely similar)? Cooltamerboy (talk) 23:50, 24 July 2009 (UTC).
- Doubtful. When the Eight Gates activate something the user is damaged afterwards. When Sage Mode activates something the user is fine afterwards. ~SnapperTo 03:31, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Because Sage Mode has natural chakra helping naruto instead of damaging. I'm just asking if sage mode might have activated the same spots that eight gates opened. Right? Cooltamerboy (talk) 04:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC).
- Judging from chapter 409 page 11, the sage chakra simply makes the body stronger. The similarities with the gates are just coincidence. Jacce | Talk 06:30, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
There is one or two things you guys seem to overlook. The eight gates is a technique that unleashes the full potential of the body by releasing all possible chakra a person has and that is the reason it damages the body. The gates are placed and used so the body doesn't automatically go all out in a fight and therefore damage itself. Naruto's sage/hermit mode is different in that the energy used is from nature-- added on to his already large normal chakra store. This does NOT include his jinchuriki chakra. The point im trying to make is Naruto isn't damaged by this "natural boost" because he doesn't generate it, he merely collects it and manipulates it for his own use. Now if we were speaking of Naruto's combined Sage/ Nine tail's form- then perhaps he would be damaged internally and be in pain, much like Rock lee is in his Eight Gates transformation. The reason being, both the Eight gates and the Jinchuriki chakra are internally stored chakra that are kept that way to prevent damage--- releasing the bulk of both types of chakra is too much damage for both naruto and Lee to take. --Ironspidermke (talk) 18:55, March 13, 2010 (UTC)
The pictures
The HQ picture of Sage Mode Jiraiya,and Sage-Kyuubi Naruto are messed up(Then again,it might just be my computer)
Never mind gohanRULEZ 23:33, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
If you are reffering to colored pictures then do not upload them.Kyuubinaruto123 (talk) 23:36, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
sage chakra
whats the diference betven normal chakra and sage chakra? by:jaksa sage
- In my understanding normal chakra chakra = physical energy + spiritual. In other words, it is simply your mental and physical potential manifested into "chakra energy" for a ninja's use. Sage chakra is when a ninja learns senjutsu and learns to gather the energy all around us...dubbed "nature" or "sage" chakra. Thus Sage chakra is like an addition to a ninjas normal chakra, not a replacement. --Ironspidermke (talk) 18:56, March 13, 2010 (UTC)
- Not true. Sage chakra is a combination of regular chakra and Natural energy. Natural energy is the energy gathered from nature.
¥Super Novice ↔ Talk ^{2} Me¥18:53, March 13, 2010 (UTC)
- Not true. Sage chakra is a combination of regular chakra and Natural energy. Natural energy is the energy gathered from nature.
thanks for the correction...I wasn't compleletly sure...I was actually looking that up until i saw your post--Ironspidermke (talk) 18:56, March 13, 2010 (UTC)
Extra Lines
I know thi may be a dumb Question, but why does jiraya put extra lines on his face before summoning Fukasaku, and Shima and activating The Sage Mode
- Im not sure if im 100% right, but i believe its because he has not yet perfected the Sage mode, as shown when his fore arms and feet become toad like.--Shiraha Manjitomoe (talk) 00:58, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
- Those lines are the blood contract that allow Jiraiya to summon Fukasaku and Shima into his own body. --ShounenSuki ^{(talk | contribs)} 01:00, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
where?
It was currently shown that Naruto can achieve the stat of super perfect sage mode, which give him full power over all five elements... where is this shown??? it is not in the manga Fawcettp (talk) 12:06, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
- Vandalism. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 14:38, January 29, 2010 (UTC)
Five Clones
Okay my memory is acting poorly today but where does it say Naruto's number of shadow clones are limited to five when using Sage Mode? ¥ Super Novice ↔ Talk ^{2} Me ¥ 05:46, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
- He used two to help him crate a Rasenshuriken, and he left two at Myobokuzan to help im in Sage Mode. If you assume that was all he could make, his limit was only 4 clones, and 2 of them being essential to using Sage Mode in combat.--TheUltimate3 (talk) 05:56, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
- While that is true it's still not restricting him to 4 or 5 like the article says. I'm going to remove that part then since as I strolled through the manga couldn't find anything stating his restriction.
¥Super Novice ↔ Talk ^{2} Me¥06:05, February 26, 2010 (UTC) - In chapter 434 Naruto says he can only make three clones for battle and two for gathering natural energy.--Deva 27 (talk) 06:08, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
- Ah okay. Thank you Deva27.
¥Super Novice ↔ Talk ^{2} Me¥06:11, February 26, 2010 (UTC)
- Ah okay. Thank you Deva27.
New pic
I hate the new pic its kinnda stupid it looks so..... i don't even have the words for that --Petar93 (talk) 11:39, April 11, 2010 (UTC)
Hey to make Naruto's Sage Mode infinite why don't he uses one of Pain's Chakra Receivers so that one clone can be gathering the natural energy and he fights with a non-gone Sage Mode —This unsigned comment was made by 190.32.110.53 (talk • contribs) .
Dispelling Genjutsu
Every since I saw Sage Mode I've been wondering could if it could dispell genjutsu. It should technically be able to since external chakra is entering the user but who knows. With his victory in his battle against the Kyuubi, the point could be moot, except that the Sharingan can supress its power =_= Skitts (talk) 21:03, July 4, 2010 (UTC)
Parent technique
I notice that at the moment, the only technique which lists Sage Mode as a parent technique is Frog Kata. Since to use senjutsu requires one to be in Sage Mode, wouldn't it be logical for all senjutsu techniques to have Sage Mode as a parent technique? Or grandparent technique if the parent technique is already derived from Sage Mode? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:31, January 4, 2011 (UTC)
- Anyone? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:45, January 6, 2011 (UTC)
- Sounds logical to me. —ShounenSuki ^{(talk | contribs | translations)} 19:12, January 6, 2011 (UTC)
- Well, it's been three days, enough for anyone who wanted to oppose this to voice an opinion, and I bumped this discussion once. I'm making the change. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:23, January 7, 2011 (UTC)
- By the way, I'm going to poke an old issue: Rasenshuriken. Should it be considered senjutsu? We know the technique is usable to some extent without Sage Mode, but it was only while in Sage Mode that he completed the technique. At the moment, it is listed as senjutsu, but I haven't added the Sade Mode as a parent technique yet precisely because it has been used without it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:37, January 7, 2011 (UTC)
- Techniques like that are always annoying... —ShounenSuki ^{(talk | contribs | translations)} 18:55, January 7, 2011 (UTC)
- By the way, I'm going to poke an old issue: Rasenshuriken. Should it be considered senjutsu? We know the technique is usable to some extent without Sage Mode, but it was only while in Sage Mode that he completed the technique. At the moment, it is listed as senjutsu, but I haven't added the Sade Mode as a parent technique yet precisely because it has been used without it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:37, January 7, 2011 (UTC)
- Well, it's been three days, enough for anyone who wanted to oppose this to voice an opinion, and I bumped this discussion once. I'm making the change. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:23, January 7, 2011 (UTC)
- Sounds logical to me. —ShounenSuki ^{(talk | contribs | translations)} 19:12, January 6, 2011 (UTC)
Homage?
Its curious, i was watching a dragon ball episode, when Goku and Vegeta transform into SSJ4, i noticed the red coloration around the eyes and i thought about the admiration kishimoto has to akira toriyama, could this be like a homage or tribute to that by adding the coloration to the full sage mode eyes? —This unsigned comment was made by ToonLiger (talk • contribs) .
No. That's like saying some of the hairstyles are from other anime. SusanooUnleashed (talk) 00:05, March 3, 2011 (UTC)
other sage modes
do all animals that can hav a contract hav a sage or is it just frogs like could there be a snake/hawk/dog/slug sage and if not y —This unsigned comment was made by 99.90.132.45 (talk • contribs) .
- We don't know. --Cerez☻ 12:09, March 25, 2011 (UTC)
Sage mode without Toad Elders
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v44/c410/16.html
the above page shows him in sage mode without the elders.
http://www.mangafox.com/manga/naruto/v41/c376/1.html and here he compares himself as a "tadpole" and not that he can't do it at all on his own. He just sucks real bad when doing it alone.NoJutsu (talk) 17:57, September 19, 2011 (UTC)
Okay, I can see this is going to end up becoming an edit war if things continue like this. Jiraya cannot keep up Sage Mode without Fukasaku and Shima using their Amphibian Technique. He can enter it alone, but only for a short time;that was the whole point behind Jiraya summoning them: so that he could move around and still be receiving senjutsu chakra. Please quit adding it. Skitts (talk) 20:42, September 19, 2011 (UTC)
I'm sure of you read the article, you'd realise that the risk of standing still to re-enter Sage Mode constantly on a battlefield is a huge risk. This is the whole point of the Sage Art: Amphibian Technique.--Cerez_{365}™ 21:12, September 19, 2011 (UTC)
Ah, I understand what No Jutsu meant, I think. It's been fixed now, I think.--Cerez_{365}™ 21:27, September 19, 2011 (UTC)
I'm still unsure what he meant, but whatever, the article looks better than before so it's all good. :-) Skitts (talk) 21:51, September 19, 2011 (UTC)
Speed entering the Mode
I see there were a few edits recently about the speed in which Naruto has entered Sage Mode. Didn't Naruto enter it very quickly before he met Konan and Nagato at the outskirts of Konoha? He wasn't in Sage Mode when he met Shikaku and Inoichi, but he entered it very fast once he got to the tree. Or am I remembering in the manga something that only happened in the anime? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:19, January 11, 2012 (UTC)
- We don't see when he entered Sage Mode in the manga. Unless I'm mistaken the anime only showed him finishing entering Sage Mode, we didn't actually see how long it took.--Deva 27 23:38, January 11, 2012 (UTC)
- When he went to Nagato we only see him arrive at the tree [last pages of chapter 443]. I don't think there was ever an instance where it took long though outside of when Preta was absorbing his chakra.--Cerez_{365}™ 00:22, January 12, 2012 (UTC)
- Originally he took a while to enter the mode-such as during his battle with pain when he's caught by the Preta Path, it takes him some time to gather the energy which turns him to stone. By the time of the Shinobi war, he can enter the mode so quickly that the guards watching over him and Bee couldn't react at all; the battle with madara, he was quick enough to enter the mode and throw the rasenshuriken before madara could do massive amounts of damage to the division. Then there's the clone inside Son Gokú- considering on the outside the Ape was dealing with Tobi's chakra chains, an attacking Naruto and the eight tails going near full force at it, the clone on the inside wouldn't have had much a still moment at all-he'd have had to enter the mode extremely quickly. Scorn53
- Like I said before the Preta Path ability is to absorb ninjutsu (chakra). That cannot be used as a benchmark.--Cerez_{365}™ 01:07, January 12, 2012 (UTC)
- Originally he took a while to enter the mode-such as during his battle with pain when he's caught by the Preta Path, it takes him some time to gather the energy which turns him to stone. By the time of the Shinobi war, he can enter the mode so quickly that the guards watching over him and Bee couldn't react at all; the battle with madara, he was quick enough to enter the mode and throw the rasenshuriken before madara could do massive amounts of damage to the division. Then there's the clone inside Son Gokú- considering on the outside the Ape was dealing with Tobi's chakra chains, an attacking Naruto and the eight tails going near full force at it, the clone on the inside wouldn't have had much a still moment at all-he'd have had to enter the mode extremely quickly. Scorn53
- When he went to Nagato we only see him arrive at the tree [last pages of chapter 443]. I don't think there was ever an instance where it took long though outside of when Preta was absorbing his chakra.--Cerez_{365}™ 00:22, January 12, 2012 (UTC)
Sage mode clones?
How many clones can Naruto make in Sage mode? people say 5 but when he fought the kyuubi he made lot's and if this is because of the location then in that location the rules should still apply unless he could do anything he wanted to in that location.—This unsigned comment was made by 89.240.176.223 (talk • contribs) .
- Naruto stated that he could only make three clones while on the battlefield while in Sage Mode without disrupting the other two he had absorbing natural energy. That fight happened in his mind and to be honest, a lot of what was done in there probably couldn't be applied to a real-world fight.--Cerez_{365}™ 15:55, January 25, 2012 (UTC)
Snake Sage Mode
If the snake Sage Mode ends up being more distinct somehow(even though they seemly use the same energy source...), are we going to split it off into another article, or simply leave it here? Skitts (talk) 16:27, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
I think it should be just one article "Sage Modes" --Elveonora (talk) 16:39, March 21, 2012 (UTC)
Don't really think it needs to be split. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:00, March 22, 2012 (UTC)
Teachers
Is there any particular reason that the White Snake Sage and the Great Toad Sage aren't added to this list? Teaching senjutsu seems good enough to be listed as a user. — SimAnt 04:54, March 22, 2012 (UTC)
- When was it said that the Great Toad Sage taught Senjutsu? And Kabuto could have been taught Senjutsu the same way Kakashi taught Naruto in his Wind Release training: simply instructing him even though he couldn't perform the task himself. Skitts (talk) 12:22, March 22, 2012 (UTC)
- I'd say that being able to use senjutsu seems to be a essential part of teaching it, since Fukasaku taught Naruto instead of gamabunta teaching him.--TricksterKing (talk) 13:07, March 22, 2012 (UTC)
- From the senjutsu article: "A person who is able to use senjutsu is called a sage (仙人, sennin)" — SimAnt 19:28, March 22, 2012 (UTC)
- I wouldn't have a problem with them being added as more than likely they're able to use it. But there is also the fact that they could know it in theory and not practical. It also says a Sage is a wise, holy etc person.--Cerez_{365}™ 19:33, March 22, 2012 (UTC)
- From the senjutsu article: "A person who is able to use senjutsu is called a sage (仙人, sennin)" — SimAnt 19:28, March 22, 2012 (UTC)
- I'd say that being able to use senjutsu seems to be a essential part of teaching it, since Fukasaku taught Naruto instead of gamabunta teaching him.--TricksterKing (talk) 13:07, March 22, 2012 (UTC)
Kabuto Sage Mode
Could it be possible that Kabuto's sage mode characteristics are different because of his weird snake mutations? Perhaps a normal person with Snake Sage mode would have less characteristics, like just a dark sclera with darkened skin under the eyes (similiar to how Naruto's sage mode looks like).
But I suppose this is speculation, hmm... Just thought it would be worth mentioning :d Derigar (talk) 22:26, March 22, 2012 (UTC)
Perfect Snake Sage Mode? Seriously?
if you read chapter 579 again on page 17, kabuto clearly says 'even he couldnt become a true sage in the end just like me!' implying that its not perfect and to make sure readers understood kishimoto made sasuke even say 'he's the same as orochimaru. an IMPERFECT snake.' prob so fans understand that this is not the perfect version like naruto has with frog sage mode... Also when naruto was training to become a sage i remember fukasaku saying something like to actually achieve perfect sage mode there should be no traces of transformation other than the pigments of the eyes getting darker (chapter 418, page 8), clearly kabuto has the features of a snake/dragon on his body just like jiraiya had frog/toad features when he went into sage mode, so clearly kabutos sage mode is IMPERFECT, please sort the information on the sage mode page out as its not accurate.—This unsigned comment was made by 2.220.230.81 (talk • contribs) .
- Yes. He is saying that in the end Orochimaru couldn't become a perfect Sage like he had done. That was the whole point of saying "me no snake, me dragon" Also, I'm not sure why you think what rings true for a toad sage is the same for a snake sage. When and if more information is available and corrections are required they shall be made.--Cerez_{365}™ 23:45, March 22, 2012 (UTC)
then please explain what its meant by when sasuke said 'he's the same as orochimaru. an IMPERFECT snake.', sasuke saying that and kabuto not correcting him just shows that he has not completed his sage training fully —This unsigned comment was made by 2.220.230.81 (talk • contribs) .
Please sign your post with 4 "~".
Also, Cerez already mentioned why. Derigar (talk) 21:22, March 23, 2012 (UTC)
- Uh yeah why did Orochimaru get taken off the list? Like the above poster said, their situation pretty much exactly mirrors Naruto's and Jiraiya's. 68.35.56.104 (talk) 04:18, March 25, 2012 (UTC)
Kabuto said Orochimaru's host body at the time couldn't absorb natural energy didn't he? So he couldn't become a sage. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 05:27, March 25, 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, I suppose we'll have to wait for more info from Kabuto hopefully. None of the translations I read mentioned natural energy at all, most were worded like Orochimaru gained the abilities of sage mode but couldnt completely utilize them because of his body, which I took to mean imperfect sage mode like Jiraiya. But we only have a couple of panels of info for now so hopefully more comes in the next few chapters. 68.35.56.104 (talk) 03:50, March 26, 2012 (UTC)
Not confirmed
Under the section "Usage" is written: "The Shikkotsu Forest is the third place to have knowledge on senjutsu." Even if is very likely, until now this is only an assumption (Kabuto only says that this place is is equally as famous as Mount Myōboku and Shikkotsu Forest); so I think that this line should be deleted. --JK88 (talk) 20:58, March 26, 2012 (UTC)
- Done.--Cerez_{365}™ 22:04, March 26, 2012 (UTC)
Snakey Appendages
On this page it looks like there is a snake growing out of Kabuto's stomach.Should this be considered part of his hermit mode? 174.252.185.254 (talk) 23:50, March 29, 2012 (UTC)
- He already had a snake appendage without being is Sage Mode. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:04, March 30, 2012 (UTC)
Image
Is there any particular reason why we have Jiraiya's imperfect Sage Mode as the image other than it looks cool? :p I don't recall us ever having the imperfect/unfinished version of a technique as an article's main image. Skitts (talk) 04:11, March 30, 2012 (UTC)
Sage Mode is Sage Mode, and it is the first time we see it. There is also the fact that it shows how it would be normally used (Fukasaku and Shima on his shoulder).--Deva 27 04:15, March 30, 2012 (UTC)
- Hm, I'm not so sure. We don't always use image of the techniques when they were first used and we definitely don't use ones of the incomplete version of the technique (not for Rasengan, Susanoo, or any other that comes to mind.) The Amphibian technique isn't how it would normally be used. That was just a way for them to overcome the shortcomings of the technique. For example, just because Oodama Rasengan somewhat overcomes the base Rasengans difficulty in hitting the foe with such a small object at close range doesn't make it how it's normally used. I'm not trying to make a stink about this, I just thought it was odd. Skitts (talk) 04:29, March 30, 2012 (UTC)
- Jiraiya's form wasn't incomplete, just imperfect. The same could be said of Naruto's. Fukasaku and Shima were supposed to merge with him but they can't so technically they'd both be bad representations.--Cerez_{365}™ 09:37, March 30, 2012 (UTC)
yes. But sage mode doesn't mean fusing ... - It just means taking natural energy in perfect amount and all that - so a perfect sage mode picture would be better Salil dabholkar (talk) 09:54, March 30, 2012 (UTC)
- Actually no, it means the ability to use natural energy, it was never said Sage Mode was doing it perfectly since what Jiraiya did was never not considered Sage Mode.--Cerez_{365}™ 10:31, March 30, 2012 (UTC)
Sage Mode Cleanup
Okay, I've a feeling I'll be told something along the lines of "We'll wait for confirmation/a databook", but I feel this needs to be addressed: "Snake" Sage Mode. Thus far, nothing Kabuto has done upon entering Sage Mode has differentiated it in the slightest from "Toad" Sage Mode. Even the horns and such are much more likely to be a mutation given all the experimentation that Orochimaru did and it's not like we don't know anyone others who experience mutations from taking in Natural energy (Jugo's clan). Not to mention, as far as has been told, Kabuto absorbs the same Natural energy Naruto and co do, and there was never said to be different kinds. Thus, leading to the most probable conclusion that it's him that's different, not the technique. Basically, I just don't see the need for us to differntiate. They learned from different locations, but other than him not gaining the toad eye design, it's seemingly the same . Was it ever even called Snake Sage Mode or implied to be any different at all? Skitts (talk) 06:28, April 13, 2012 (UTC)
- If I understand this, do you mean calling this "Snake Sage Mode"? As for the horns, I don't think it's from the experimentation. It's not mentioned to be called "Snake Sage Mode". —IndxcvNovelist (Talk to Me) 06:37, April 13, 2012 (UTC)
- No. In a nutshell, I'm saying there's no need for us to have a section title "Snake Sage Mode" because it has shown no difference from what the "Toad Sage Mode" grants. I said that the horns are likely a mutation from Kabuto's body (which was altered by the DNA of Oro's body which was experimented on a lot) reacting to the Natural energy, given what we know about the Jugo clan mutating because of it and Kabuto experiimenting on Jugo. Skitts (talk) 06:45, April 13, 2012 (UTC)
Bump.Skitts (talk) 12:22, April 13, 2012 (UTC)
- As I believe you yourself realise, a judgement like this can't really be made until Kabuto's Sage Mode has been explored fully. While there is currently nothing really contradictory to those displayed by Naruto or Jiraiya, there are notable differences that we can only speculate the reasons for, as well as numerous points that haven't been touched upon at all (with "disadvantages" being completely absent at this point). Blackstar1 (talk) 13:11, April 13, 2012 (UTC)
- Okay ~_-, I agree ^^ —IndxcvNovelist (Talk to Me) 13:25, April 13, 2012 (UTC)
Snake Sage -> Serpent Sage
I know it's rather late to say this, but, given all Kabuto's boasts about ascending from snake into a dragon, and the name of the cave he studied at, shouldn't it be a serpent sage rather than a snake sage? (Shadoguardian (talk) 01:24, May 25, 2012 (UTC))
- It's just a generic name that was used in order to differentiate the modes.--Cerez365^{™}^{(talk)} 01:55, May 25, 2012 (UTC)
wasn't it called dragon sage? that's what i read, unless the translations were wrong. --67.82.97.72 (talk) 17:47, June 15, 2012 (UTC)
No. In Japanese mythology, dragons and snakes are the same thing, but dragons are much stronger. Kabuto calling himself a dragon was just a way he used to declare how strong he had become. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:01, June 15, 2012 (UTC)
as of latest chapter ...
- so was Kabuto using "Sage Mode" or "Sage Transformation" ??? since he has learned it and his techniques are Sage Techniques then it must be the first, but doesn't this confirm that he was using "imperfect snake sage mode" due to physical transformation?
- what are the differences between sage mode and sage transformation and how to handle that ... is Orochimaru a Sage after all?
- doesn't this confirm that "power of the white snake" is nothing else than Snake Sage Mode?
I added some convo http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Orochimaru%27s_Juinjutsu#Related_to_Sage_Mode how are we going to handle this? Since Sasuke was using Orochimaru's powers of white snake, didn't he have Sage Mode as well?--Elveonora (talk) 13:33, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
- Stop comparing toad Sage Mode to snake Sage Mode, they might not be the same. The transformation may have been due to the fact that he had Jūgo's DNA in him.
- Sage Mode gathers natural energy. Sage Transformation is everything Jūgo does with his body.
- Haven't a clue what you're talking about. Orochimaru's power of the white snake only has to do with his many methods of reviving himself.--Cerez365^{™}^{(talk)} 13:57, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
- Also remember, Kabuto did learn senjutsu from the Snakes. I don't know about Orochimaru, but Kabuto was indeed a sage.--TheUltimate3 ^{(talk)} 14:00, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
- Orochimaru i don't know anymore. He apparently used senjutsu, but I'm not sure if he was a sage or not.--TheUltimate3 ^{(talk)} 14:00, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
- Also remember, Kabuto did learn senjutsu from the Snakes. I don't know about Orochimaru, but Kabuto was indeed a sage.--TheUltimate3 ^{(talk)} 14:00, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
but remember kabuto said that since oro's current host was unable to handle it he couldnt master senjutsu.71.71.58.224 (talk) 14:09, July 10, 2012 (UTC) yomiko-chan
I believe Oro's an imperfect Sage but a Sage nonetheless because he uses senjutsu (outside of Jugo and his clan decor). I'm good with adding him as such or staving if you guys wanna wait for a bit more info.--Cerez365^{™}^{(talk)} 14:20, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
Isn't it more like Kabuto is an imperfect Sage, while Orochimaru is perfect? The statement about Oro not being able to handle it refer to the host bodies being weak for that, nor him having any problems with it. Orochimaru absorbed natural energies and his own chakra from Kabuto and didn't change, while Kabuto turned back to normal, this alone is enough proof my dear Cerez that the workings of Snake and Toad modes are the same--Elveonora (talk) 14:24, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
- Have you taken into consideration that Kabuto has Jūgo's DNA within him and the now-named Sage Transformation which might be responsible for the transformation? The way Kabuto put it made it sound like he was the perfect Sage, not Orochimaru.--Cerez365^{™}^{(talk)} 14:33, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
Jugo's DNA causes random transformations, not snake transformation. He just said Orochimaru was unable to use Sage Mode WITH weak host bodies, while Kabuto's own body was capable of using and controlling Natural Energies and all that DNA and that he considers himself stronger than Orochimaru and a "Dragon" Also about the "power of white snake" part, doesn't make it sense that it's the same thing as Snake Sage Mode? Kabuto thought that Orochimaru was still in Sasuke and said that he (Sasuke) also possess this power, indicating it's not a result of body modifications, at least not alone--Elveonora (talk) 14:42, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
- What you mean by random? Forming axes, pistons, jet boosters and needles aren't random, his transformations are very controlled. The only thin that is uncontrolled is the fits of rage that come on. I don't want to speculate but it's very possible that Kabuto grew those horns himself (the only acutal "transformation" that happened to him) well and the navel-snake which I noticed was being hidden in the frames for some reason.--Cerez365^{™}^{(talk)} 14:52, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
Yes, I worded it wrong ... "custom" is what I meant. I don't see why the workings of Toad and Snake modes should be different, that's speculative ... natural energy is natural energy and sage mode is sage mode. We can go only with facts, and those are that Orochimaru absorbed natural energy and his own chakra without any physical change (like a true sage) while it was the reason for Kabuto's transformation, and he turned normal afterwards. Jiraiya turned half toad due to not being able to perfectly balance all 3 energies, Kabuto appears to be exactly the same case ... Orochimaru is apparently also a Sage and it looks closer to Naruto's case--Elveonora (talk) 14:59, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
- Except didn't Kabuto call his Sage Mode perfect, and thus for Snake Sage Mode perfection is looking like dragon? Also, remember Orochimaru looked like a flipping mess his entire life, well before he could have become a Sage.--TheUltimate3 ^{(talk)} 15:06, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
Sasuke: "You are just like Orochimaru, an imperfect Snake" Kabuto: "I have surprassed Orochimaru, I'm a dragon now" Something like that was stated, don't know what to make of it ... also remember that Itachi suggested that Kabuto must have a Sage Mode by his appearance.--Elveonora (talk) 15:09, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
- But surpassing someone can't mean that he's worse off than them? Also, lmao @ "Orochimaru looked like a flipping mess his entire life" Ratchet ( '-') --Cerez365^{™}^{(talk)} 15:29, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
Any more opinions? @Omni, what do you think, Kabuto = imperfect mode, Oro = perfect mode ... or the opposite? Also any more opinions on the white snake powers being snake sage mode abilities?--Elveonora (talk) 16:55, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
I believe the extra snake traits Kabuto has are a result of the DNA mess he shoved down his veins. His manipulation of the pure natural energy when he used Sage Art: Inorganic Transmigration to give life to the cave stands to reason that he has full control and balance over natural energy and as such makes him a perfect Sage. Orochimaru on the other hand may not be a perfect Sage due to the frailty of his host bodies since in order to master senjutsu one must have a strong chakra and body. Now in regard to the toad/snake differences...they shoudn't exist. Sage Mode is Sage Mode no matter which medium taught you...at best there should be a trivia note or one in the abilities section saying something: "the Sage Mode user gains different animal traits depending on which sage taught him". Jiraiya could change his body to gain more toad traits, Kabuto also did the same. There shouldn't be any separation of the Sage Modes, they are all the same. Darksusanoo (talk) 17:41, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
But the snake modification can't be due to DNA mess, Oro just sucked his own chakra and natural energies from Kabuto and he reverted back, the DNAs juice is still in his body. Jiraiya also could use great Sage techniques yet his manipulation wasn't without physical changes, Orochimaru himself sure is a perfect Sage since he was just looking for a host body strong enough to hold his power, the thing that he sucked out Kabuto's Sage Mode without any problems proves this. I agree on the rest, differences between Sage Modes are speculative, they all should give the same benefits ... only the "sage arts" are different as each species has their unique techniques most likely--Elveonora (talk) 18:25, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
- I don't agree that Orochimaru is a perfect Sage...as Kabuto stated, he tried to master the Sage arts but was unable due to his frail host bodies, may have the knowledge but not the physical requirements which is like an inverse of Jiraiya who has the requirements but never perfected his skills...and remember Oro's own body and DNA are a result of countless experiments and it's effects done to other individuals aren't fully known due to the fact that we only have Kabuto as an example but Kabuto already had snake modifications before using Sage Mode. As in regards to Kabuto he likely took all the modifications from him because they were all connected to his DNA since it was all mixed together and most of them already had a DNA connection to orochimaru. One curious thing the series has been showing through out it's run is the bigger connection between chakra and DNA/remains. And Kabuto can't have the DNA juice because he reverted back to human form and he already had snake changes before going sage. Oro at least took all of Kabuto's modifications. In regards to the article it should be re-written as a single Sage Mode. Darksusanoo (talk) 19:00, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
Well, but he HIMSELF (his own body) can handle it, only host bodies couldn't ... now he was revived in his original body. So ur saying that Oro took all the powers Kabuto has obtained from DNA juices? O_O It would be weird if Kabuto had to make an experiment and insert DNA into his body and Orochimaru just placing his hand on him stealing it ... but without speculating, I guess we will see if Kabuto still has his new powers or not later. But the thing that he was snake-like even before going Sage Mode and now is normal has a point ... Orochimaru just might have suppressed the alternations from DNA. For the Sage Mode, I agree ... Snake and Toad modes give the same benefits--Elveonora (talk) 19:14, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
Here's a hint...Orochimaru's original body hasn't existed for at least two to three decades which was when he started his experiments...he can't handle the natural energies for himself...he's been living in these altered host bodies for decades...if got Sasuke's or maybe Kimimaro's body if it wasn't diseased or Kabuto's since he was able to handle natural energy would be a different situation. And yes i am saying that Orochimaru took all of Kabuto's additional powers...Kabuto's reggression to a normal human form stands to reason with it and most of the individuals Kabuto spliced his DNA with already had Oro's DNA nixed ub which makes for a perfect anchor, plus...we do not have a full grasp of Orochimaru's abilities or the full extent of his experiments, so i'd say him having the ability to absorb any modifications which ALREADY stemmed from his DNA is a minimal question don't you think? Darksusanoo (talk) 19:30, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
That's not true, Orochimaru's original body is the same one as his "snake form" he has his original body all the time, he didn't throw it away ... white snake is his original altered body but he can also revert into human form if he wants even without a host, he can shed and create a new body anytime as well. For the Kabuto part, okay. The point is that he must have learned Sage Mode before he took over his first host body, he wouldn't be a sage if he didn't.--Elveonora (talk) 19:36, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think so...acording to Kabuto's flashbacks he would have tried to learn Sage Mode sometime after he was taken under Orochimaru's, which by then he would have started his process of jumping bodies...his original body was likely destroyed due to time and the tool of his experiments...and like Kabuto said he wasn't able to master it...maybe now with what he took from Kabuto, he'll be able to do it...think about it...why wouldn't hasn't he ever used such a powerful ability such as Sage Mode on any of his battles? Like the one with the Four-tail Naruto, or the final battle against Itachi, or the even better the one against the Hiruzen? Doesn't make sense in my book. Darksusanoo (talk) 20:30, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
- Not to mention Kabuto explicitly said Orochimaru tried learning Sage Mode, but couldn't achieve it. So he isn't a user.--NaruHina fan (talk) 21:01, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
- Orochimaru was explicitly said in this chapter to take back his senjutsu chakra from Kabuto, and to have put that senjutsu chakra in the cursed seals he applied. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:08, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
- Its likely a mistranslation. Kabuto confirmed that Orochimaru tried learning Sage Mode, but he failed, remember? His body or chakra just wasn't strong enough for it.--NaruHina fan (talk) 21:20, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
- It wasn't a mistranslation, Kabuto meant that Orochimaru's host bodies couldn't properly utilize his senjutsu, a lot of people just misunderstood that. Jetdeagon (talk) 21:23, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
- Seelentau has already seen the raw. And even if you don't know Japanese, you can clearly see in the raw "senjutsu chakra" in the panel that shows that Anko no longer has the cursed seal. Kabuto said that Orochimaru couldn't become a true sage because his host body couldn't handle it. At the time, most of us, myself included, understood that as Orochimaru being incapable of forming senjutsu chakra. Turns out he could, he probably couldn't make a perfect sage mode with the balance of the energies, just like Jiraiya couldn't. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:26, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
- Except he hasn't even shown Imperfect Sage Mode like Jiraiya has. And why wouldn't Itachi or any other character mention that Orochimaru has Sage Mode himself? Why would Kabuto explicitly said Orochimaru tried to learn Sage Mode but couldn't achieve it? For a comparison, Kinkaku and Ginkaku could use Kurama's chakra, but they aren't actual Jinchuriki like Naruto is.--NaruHina fan (talk) 21:32, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
- He said both. Both the bodies he tried to take over and his own were unable to use Sage Mode. He probably could get as far as the equivalent of using Toad Oil so he could sense Natural Energy on his own but he couldn't get to use Sage Mode itself.--NaruHina fan (talk) 21:42, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
- So he could only 'sense' natural energy when in this very chapter he's explicitly stated to use it and absorb it? And according to this wiki, "Those who are able to learn to use senjutsu are able to enter a physical state called "Sage Mode"" Being able to use senjutsu chakra is literally the only prerequisite to using sage mode. Jetdeagon (talk) 21:46, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
- Jugo could also sense chakra. Kabuot said it himself, Orochimaru tried and failed, and had no bodies strong enough to learn it. He could only get as far as creating senjutsu chakra, but not Sage Mode himself. Kabuto explicitly said Orochimaru couldn't achieve Sage Mode. So stop adding that he did.--NaruHina fan (talk) 22:17, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
- Omnibender is the one that keeps having to add it back, so you need to get over it already and leave it alone. 68.35.56.104 (talk) 22:26, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
- Jugo could also sense chakra. Kabuot said it himself, Orochimaru tried and failed, and had no bodies strong enough to learn it. He could only get as far as creating senjutsu chakra, but not Sage Mode himself. Kabuto explicitly said Orochimaru couldn't achieve Sage Mode. So stop adding that he did.--NaruHina fan (talk) 22:17, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
- Anko is the oldest cursed seal Orochimaru applied, she's the one who defined the 10% survival rate. Anko isn't known to have left Konoha, so Orochimaru did this while he was still in the village, before taking someone else's body with Living Corpse Reincarnation. If her seal had senjutsu chakra, that means he wasn't limited by whatever host body he had at the time. He would have Jūgo already, but not a new host body. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:53, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
- So he could only 'sense' natural energy when in this very chapter he's explicitly stated to use it and absorb it? And according to this wiki, "Those who are able to learn to use senjutsu are able to enter a physical state called "Sage Mode"" Being able to use senjutsu chakra is literally the only prerequisite to using sage mode. Jetdeagon (talk) 21:46, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
- It wasn't a mistranslation, Kabuto meant that Orochimaru's host bodies couldn't properly utilize his senjutsu, a lot of people just misunderstood that. Jetdeagon (talk) 21:23, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
- Not to mention Kabuto explicitly said Orochimaru tried learning Sage Mode, but couldn't achieve it. So he isn't a user.--NaruHina fan (talk) 21:01, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
Omni is right, Oro can use Sage Mode for sure and likely could do so even before switching body. And no, his original body isn't destroyed, he still has his original body with himself, it's the white snake. People should stick with proper translations ... EDIT: the thing why he didn't use Sage Mode is because the bodies he took over couldn't handle it--Elveonora (talk) 23:44, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
- Exactly. Not to mention that he said he infuses his curse seals with sage chakra and anko was one of the first 10 he put a curse seal on, which he did before leaving the village (which means before he ever switched bodies). We're all in agreement aside from NaruHinafan(SuperSaiyaMan) up there, and their opinion quite obviously isn't going to change regardless of our evidence (that oro had it before switching bodies and that kabuto never said oro couldn't use it, he said that oro's host bodies couldn't use it). So can we finally put this to rest and update the related pages accordingly and leave them that way? Jetdeagon (talk) 23:46, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
Some people just can't put their bias aside and stick with proper translations and are using the false ones as "proof" for the way they want to have it. I think Kishimoto has bigger word on this than any of us and the chapter clearly states he has a Sage Mode. The ongoing discussions though are if Kabuto/Orochimaru have a perfect/imperfect version and to merge and update the power-ups part as it's false only snake sage mode enhances reflexes and gives better perception because toad one does the same and there's nothing to indicate any difference ... then kinda on a side-note there's the mini-topic about if Orochimaru's power of the white snake is actually Snake Sage Mode--Elveonora (talk) 23:55, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
- I fixed the related pages again to show that he had SM. It's fine if the specifics of imperfect/perfect are still in discussion, the main point is that we are in agreement that he DOES have sage mode and the pages will reflect that fact. EDIT: for the sake of that discussion, I would consider Orochimaru's SM perfect since he has no physical body changes (like Kabuto's horns and Jiraiya's nose/hands/feet). Aside from the snake eyes and eye makeup, which is EXACTLY what happens to naruto (toad eyes and eye makeup) when he's in perfect SM.Jetdeagon (talk) 23:58, July 10, 2012 (UTC)
The thing is that Oro had the eyes and "make-up" (lol) since childhood ... so even if he was using Perfect Snake Sage Mode , we wouldn't likely notice. I think it's obvious it's Perfect version as he was "born" from Senjutsu chakra and absorbed Natural Energy along with his own chakra from Kabuto without any effort and no transformation ... also remember that now he is walking around in his own body without a host, so he might actually use it if he didn't already--Elveonora (talk) 00:17, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
- That's why I think his is Perfect too. Think about it, we now know that he applies sage mode chakra to curse seals, and we saw him apply one to sasuke, which means he'd have to have been in sage mode to do so, and he looked no different than he always does. His eyes and eye markings (which would be the only noticeable effect of perfect SM) always being present was Kishi's clever way of hiding it so long. Plus, like you said, one would assume he'd have to be in SM to straight up absorb sage chakra out of Kabuto, and again, he looked like he always does. Jetdeagon (talk) 00:21, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
- Before we continue any further, because everything I read just seems to be feeding off each other. Where was it said that Orochimaru could even enter Sage Mode? Gathering natural chakra is one thing, but actually entering Sage Mode is another.--TheUltimate3 ^{(talk)} 00:27, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
- Because being able to manipulate, use, and absorb senjutsu chakra (which isn't natural energy, it's the combination of natural energy and one's own chakra [what you learn to do in SM training]) IS sage mode. It's the only thing you have to be able to do to enter sage mode. If one can use senjutsu, then that's sage mode. Jetdeagon (talk) 00:30, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
- Kinkaku and Ginkaku can manipulate and use Biju Chakra, does this make them Jinchuriki? Not to mention that Orochimaru was specifically said to be UNABLE to use Sage Mode, having FAILED at it! Kabuto explicitly said it!--NaruHina fan (talk) 00:36, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
- Again, Kabuto never, ever said "Orochimaru can't/couldn't use sage mode". He said that Orochimaru's host bodies couldn't utilize it. That in no way says that Orochimaru can't use it. Second, even if kabuto HAD said that Orochimaru couldn't, one character's words don't trump what we actually witness, which is Orochimaru using senjutsu. Senjutsu can only be used by sage mode users. This has already been accepted, even by mods, so just leave it alone already.Jetdeagon (talk) 00:40, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
@Ultimate, Senjutsu Chakra = Sage Mode user @SuperNaruHinaManFanDamPan, you were already told that it's not what was said. Kinkaku and Ginkaku were pseudo-Jinchuriky, Orochimaru was never said to be UNABLE to use Sage Mode, only that he couldn't find host bodies strong enough to handle it
Also I'd like Omni's and Cerez's opinion on this one since I respect their opinion the most for being quite frequent editors ... Jetdeagon, so are you suggesting that he could use Sage Mode/Senjutsu chakra even with host bodies? That would be KINDA contradicting with Kabuto's comments on host bodies. But I'm not sure on this one as well, since part of me says "yes" and the other part "no" I think that "power of the white snake" refer to Sage Mode/Snake Arts and that his Body Shedding and Gathering of the Snakes and other such related techniques along with regeneration are a result of it. That would explain why the host bodies are weakening and rejecting Orochimaru, due to not being able to handle Natural Energy properly. If Sasuke was being taken over, he would last for not a limited time by this issue as the true purpose of Curse Mark appears to potentially prepare host bodies as those able to possess and use Curse Mark have a higher chance to handle Sage Mode thus Orochimaru, and for revival as well. The only way how to solve this issue I think is if someone could provide a RAW of both the chapter when it's being talked about it in Sasuke and Itachi vs Kabuto and of latest chapter as well, and to have translators here on wiki to solve the issue--Elveonora (talk) 00:42, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
- I wholeheartedly agree, and I was not suggesting that Orochimaru could use senjutsu with host bodies, I don't know what gave that impression, maybe I worded something wrong. The fact that he can't grasp is that one cannot use senjutsu chakra without being able to use sage mode. senjutsu chakra comes from sage mode. and Omni already said he agrees with the fact that Orochimaru had sage mode, and he himself edited both this page and Orochimaru's page earlier to reflect that. And Cerez said earlier in this very conversation that he also believes Orochimaru is a sage.Jetdeagon (talk) 00:45, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
- Which mod has accepted it? Orochimaru just used senjutsu, he has never been shown in Sage Mode or in a state of Sage Mode. We know when Sage Mode is being used. Naruto achieved a Sage Modeesque state when he finished his Toad Oil training, does that make him a Sage Mode user at that time? Even though he was creating the Senjutsu chakra then? And Kabuto said that Orochimaru never achieved Sage Mode despite training in it. ["Orochimaru-sama tried to immediately gain that ability, but, he hadn't found the right body that could bear that ability so..."] Orochimaru just using Senjutsu means he achieved what Naruto did at that point of training with the toad oil. He's still not a Sage Mode user and never will be until he actually USES it.--NaruHina fan (talk) 00:47, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
- Naruto achieved Senjutsu Chakra use when he completed Toad Oil Training. Did that make him a Sage Mode user then? Yes or no, Jetdeagon?--NaruHina fan (talk) 00:50, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
(edit conflict x4) @NaruHina fan, I think so, it did. @TheUltimate3 In the raw for this weeks's chapter, the panel that shows that Anko no longer has her cursed seal, you can clearly see in Orochimaru's speech bubble that he mentions senjutsu chakra. Both scanlations I've read translated that as saying he put his senjutsu chakra in the cursed seals. Seelentau himself confirmed he says senjutsu chakra in the chapter's talk page. When Kabuto used Sage Mode, he said that he surpassed Orochimaru because Orochimaru's host body couldn't handle senjutsu, Orochimaru was limited by the host body. In his original body, before he ever switched it, we see that he was capable of using Sage Mode by the fact that a cursed seal from the first ever batch had senjutsu chakra in it. You can only make senjutsu chakra if you're a Sage, meaning he would have been able to enter Sage Mode. Jiraiya couldn't balance the three energies perfectly, but he's still considered a sage, and his techniques were still considered senjutsu. While we don't know if Orochimaru could balance them perfectly, he very clearly and unambiguously says he put his senjutsu chakra in the cursed seals. Using senjutsu means one has to be in the Sage Mode. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 00:52, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
- Naruto only became a Sage Mode user after he actually achieved it. The Toad Oil Training wasn't enough even though he could use Senjutsu chakra then. And when did we EVER see Orochimaru in Sage Mode? Again, until he actually uses it, he shouldn't be listed as a user.--NaruHina fan (talk) 00:57, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
- Except you don't if you're still in training. Naruto achieved the ability to use Senjutsu when he was doing his Toad Oil Training, yet he wasn't any close to being an actual Sage Mode user then. Not to mention again, he's never been shown using it and isn't it a standard practice on the site to wait until that happens before listing jutsu users?--NaruHina fan (talk) 01:01, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
Girl, your either can't read properly or your English is bad ... it says: "he hadn't found the right body that could bear that ability" not: "he couldn't have used that ability for he had a weak body" Also your Naruto comparison is flawed, Naruto was using Sage Mode since he has learned how to absorb, combine and use Natural Energy along with his own chakra to create Senjutsu without the use of any oil ... I don't see Orochimaru using any oil. The oil made Naruto absorb natural energies, but he only mastered Sage Mode when he himself has mixed it with the 2 energies that make up his chakra--Elveonora (talk) 01:05, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
- And we've never seen anyone use senjutsu outside of sage mode, either (because you can't).Jetdeagon (talk) 01:07, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
- I'm a guy, Elveonora. And it still valid, it also implies he couldn't use Sage Mode itself because he kept searching for stronger bodies to bear the ability. And you don't get what I'm saying, Naruto while using Toad Oil could absorb Nature Energy and had to balance it so he wouldn't turn to stone. Thus he gained Senjutsu there. What I said is for all we know, Orochimaru achieved a SIMILAR state, and never achieved Sage Mode himself. Thus, until Orochimaru actually uses it he shouldn't be listed as a user.--NaruHina fan (talk) 01:18, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
- Natural energy and being able to use senjutsu chakra (which is natural energy combined with the other two energies within one's own body, which is what is used in sage mode) are two different things, I think you think they're the same which is why you're not getting this. Being able to use senjutsu means you're a sage, that's all there is to it.Jetdeagon (talk) 01:21, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
- I would like to remind this discussion that perfect balance isn't required. Jiraiya never achieved perfect balance of the three energies, but he was still a sage. From the moment you can balance natural energy with the other two enough so that it's stable, you've made senjutsu chakra, meaning you're in Sage Mode. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:32, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
@I'm a guy, (yes, I'm gonna be as ignorant as you are) no it implies that his host bodies couldn't use it and he was searching for one that could (hint: Sasuke) the thing Naruto didn't balance it out, he was turning into a Toad and the grandpa toad had to smash him with a magical stick to revert him back into a ramen ingredient. Naruto gained Sage Mode the moment he didn't need any help to maintain the state, the last part of your posts makes absolutely no sense--Elveonora (talk) 01:48, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
- ...you called me 'girl'. And should you prove that Orochimaru doesn't need help to maintain the state? Again, he could have gotten as far as the training and no further. Hell, from the sound of it (when he got Anko the Cursed Seal, just after getting Jugo) he had his original body back when he first went to the Cave. And kabuto said he kept trying to get stronger and stronger bodies since either his own or the others couldn't bear Sage Mode. Why can't we actually wait until he uses it before listing him as a user?--NaruHina fan (talk) 02:01, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
then...Oro IS a sage because he can use SENJUTSU chakra...but would that mean that Sage mode is a parent technique of the different Curse seal?Saeyatachi (talk) 02:01, July 11, 2012 (UTC)Saeyatachi
- The earth and heaven seal pages should be updated with a tidbit about the fact that they are filled with orochimaru's sage chakra, and sage mode as a parent jutsu, but I'd wait for the go-ahead from omni before adding the latter. And, @Naruhinafan, it's become really, really, reaaally obvious that you're never going to change your opinion, but the fact is that the manga has established irrefutably that if one uses senjutsu chakra in any way/shape/form, they have to be in sage mode. If one uses senjutsu or sage chakra, they are a sage. Omnibender put it perfectly a few posts up, if that isn't going to convince you to accept it, nothing will, but it's been decided already.Jetdeagon (talk) 02:12, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
- How? Orochimaru's original body couldn't bear Sage Mode, thus not making him a user. Which is why he continually tried to get stronger and stronger bodies. That's what Kabuto said. And for all we know, he could have just used Senjutsu due to the Cursed Seal, not because of Sage Mode. Again, until he actually uses it, he shouldn't be listed.--NaruHina fan (talk) 02:08, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
@girl/boy, "FACEPALM" you are either ignorant or have some kind of retardation/disability either psychical or physical. If he got only as far as training but no further, he couldn't have used it, but he did. He has already used Senjutsu chakra (Curse Marks) and has shown ability to absorb Senjutsu Chakra thus there's no doubt, get over it. Honestly, it's similar case to how Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are being listed in Madara's infobox, cause the canon states he can do it. If you are waiting for "Sage Technique: Taking over bodies" or "Sage Art: make-up no jutsu" from him, then you are welcome. @Sae, I think we should list Sage Mode as a parent technique to Curse Marks but to Sage Transformation as well, or related/delivered ? IT WAS NEVER STATED THAT HIS ORIGINAL BODY COULDN'T USE IT, LATEST CHAPTER EVEN INDICATES OPPOSITE--Elveonora (talk) 02:14, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
- You don't quite understand, Elvenora (oh, btw, don't insult since I disagree with you). Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are perquisite techniques of Susano'o, that's why Madara has the,. And no, Curse Seals use Jugo's chakra for them so they can passively absorb natural energy. Answer me this: why even go the Jugo route if Orochimaru himself has Sage Mode?--NaruHina fan (talk) 02:38, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
- In this very chapter we learn that curse seals use orochimaru's sage mode chakra. The only way Jugo fits into this discussion is that finding the source of jugo's nature transformation abilities is what led orochimaru to the ryuchi cave where snake sage mode is learned.Jetdeagon (talk) 02:42, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
- And we also know that Sage Chakra can be formed via what Jugo does. Again, why even bother getting Jugo for his Cursed Seal Template if he could go into Sage Mode on his own? And why don't you guys want to wait for it to actually be used by Orochimaru? --NaruHina fan (talk) 02:47, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
- In this very chapter we learn that curse seals use orochimaru's sage mode chakra. The only way Jugo fits into this discussion is that finding the source of jugo's nature transformation abilities is what led orochimaru to the ryuchi cave where snake sage mode is learned.Jetdeagon (talk) 02:42, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
Curse Marks don't possess Jugo's chakra, but his enzyme. And I don't understand the last part ... also Jugo doesn't use Senjutsu/Sage chakra, just Natural Energies. He found about Sage Mode after experimenting on Jugo, the Curse Marks are used to select potential host bodies candidates--Elveonora (talk) 02:50, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
- Then how does his techniques work if its just Natural Energy? And he went to the Ryuuchi Cave after experimenting on Jugo...and he couldn't get Sage Mode there. Hence why he kept trying to get stronger and stronger bodies. Thus, he isn't a Sage Mode user.--NaruHina fan (talk) 03:12, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
The Curse Mark works by combining Natural Energy and Orochimaru's chakra with an enzyme from Jugo ... it just creates transformation and gives Sage Mode-like abilities due to Senjutsu Chakra of Orochimaru, but the users of the seals aren't Sages as they have no control themselves over Natural Energy and arts of Senjutsu, neither Jugo Clan's transformations are to be considered Sage Modes, because there's no control over Natural Energy, just transformations. For the last time, it was never stated he couldn't get Sage Mode there. You are both blind and ignorant ... anyways, I'm done with you and I won't reply anymore to you.--Elveonora (talk) 03:30, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
- You are both rude and insulting. When could have have gotten Sage Mode if not there? Why did he need to keep getting stronger and stronger bodies if he already HAD Sage Mode?--NaruHina fan (talk) 04:07, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
Because in order to attain all knowledge, ultimate power and unlimited lifespan, he has to change bodies to achieve his goals as he himself is also mortal. Since he would die one day as an old man, all his efforts would had become meaningless. Thus he need a strong and young body for that, and a one that can hold his greatness, Sage Mode included ... you should know this--Elveonora (talk) 04:42, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
CONCLUSION: 1.Orochimaru can use senjutsu chakra(regardless if its perfect or not) thus making hin a sage. 2.orochimaru branded others with curse seals to test if they're body can survive using natural energy 3.Orochimaru apply the curse seal while in sage mode, using enzymes from jugo's body(so they/it will absorb the natural energy for the nonsage users) Am I right?Saeyatachi (talk) 05:12, July 11, 2012 (UTC)Saeyatachi
- No conclusion at all. Elveonora, Orochimaru needed stronger bodies to not only become immortal but attain Sage Mode. He learned to use Senjutsu chakra, but not to attain Sage Mode itself, that's what the chapter makes clear. And Orochimaru apply the seal while in Sage Mode? Prove it, he wasn't in Sage Mode when he applied it to Sasuke. Orochimaru isn't a Sage, he just can use Senjutsu chakra. Like how Kinkaku and Ginkaku aren't Jinchuriki, but can use Biju Chakra.--NaruHina fan (talk) 05:30, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
why is that when NaruHina talks the discussion tends to repeat? your the only one arguing here?Saeyatachi (talk) 06:10, July 11, 2012 (UTC)Saeyatachi
- Since it makes sense that Orochimaru never achieved Sage Mode, given he never, not once used Sage Mode in the manga and none of his jutsus even have the Senjutsu moniker. Why wasn't Orochimaru revealed to be a user in the Third Databook when it was released? What sense does having two Sannin having the same power when Pain said 'all the Sannin are unique'? --NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 06:58, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
- Actually. It's still possible SuperSaiyaMan, during Asuma's life for example we never saw him use Wind Release: Dust Cloud Technique but he did so as an Edo Tensei and I'm sure, just like everyone else Orochimaru has techniques that we haven't seen him use. There's also the matter of Kabuto saying his host bodies couldn't manage it and what not. But the fact that he absorbed his own chakra as well as the Senjutsu chakra from Kabuto, says a lot. In any case to me, it doesn't make any sense going on about this with the limited information that we have.--Cerez365^{™}^{(talk)} 11:05, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
- It doesn't make sense though. Orochimaru should have gotten some techniques listed as Senjutsu in the Third Databook, and would have been listed as a user there. However, he wasn't. Its premature adding him to Sage and Sage Mode until he actually uses it. --NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 20:31, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
- And Deidara's techniques should have been listed as kekkei genkai, but weren't. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:06, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
Databooks don't reveal everything, like first one can say that Bob's favorite food is a chicken, and the second his height/weight, third about his background etc.--Elveonora (talk) 22:12, July 11, 2012 (UTC)
- Databooks are what is revealed from the author. Orochimaru was still alive/relevant when Sage Mode was introduced. Thus if he had it, he'd have been listed by it. Not to mention he was given a 3.5 in stamina/chakra by Kishimoto...when both Sage Mode users had a 5. Thus, again, until he actually uses it he isn't a Sage or uses Sage Mode. It isn't the same as Deidara's Blast Release.--NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 20:11, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
- To me, Sage's are persons who can manipulate natural energy (outside of Jūgo's clan). Though I wish Shounensuki was here to ply us with direct translations, Jūgo noted that Orochimaru undid Kabuto's Sage Mode. He would have to have some knowledge in the area to do something like that no? --Cerez365^{™}^{(talk)} 20:25, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
Knowledge is one thing, actually possessing it is another. Kabuto even went so far to say that Orochimaru failed to achieve it due to his weak body. And he canonically doesn't have the chakra for it as well since Sage Mode requires a vast reserve like Naruto, Jiraiya, and Kabuto. Orochimaru learned enough to form perhaps the minimal amount of Sage Chakra, but couldn't enter the mode and was forced to rely on Jugo.--NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 20:32, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
Kabuto has 3 (less than Oro) in stamina and is a Sage Mode user, your argument is invalid--Elveonora (talk) 20:29, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
- You mean before all that training, genetic manipulation, and everything that Kabuto did? Orochimaru's stamina didn't improve (especially since he was dead for a significant amount of time) but Kabuto's did, Elveonora.--NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 20:32, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
That's called theory-crafting, only information that's in the disposal is mentioned ... "what ifs" do not belong here, stop already. The conversation has reached it's end for you keep repeating yourself and speculating ... one way or the other, it's too long.--Elveonora (talk) 20:47, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
Wow Elvenorae you're an ass. At NO point is it ok to call someone retarded. 2 majority rule is BS. NaruHina is right and even if all of you disagree with him, he will still be right, you guys don't decide the truth no one does not even me. you guys make the rules and completely ignore them. WHEN did oro show sage mode. That's YOUR rule not mine. follow your own damn rules and stop bullying NaruHina.
Not signing your posts, that's as much validity as you have. And no, he/she isn't right and instead of conversation that was supposed to help the article, it changed into theory-crafting, nitpicking, assumptions, delusions and ignorance--Elveonora (talk) 21:18, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
and @Cerez365 I deeply respect you. THANK YOU for not being a jerk like elveonora. in your latest comment you said, "To me, sage mode is..." my only issue is the 'To me' part. Aren't you guys fact checkers, you collect data and put it on here. your job isn't to interpret it is it? This is supposed to be like the justice system innocent until proven guilty, burden of proof=beyond a reasonable doubt, your rules state that it must be Shown or clearly stated, neither of which is the case, I believe oro could be a sage but we CAN'T prove it. in court the bad guy gets off sometimes. but that's the price of fairness. and right now we don't have enough info to make such a claim.
- Except we do. And it's not majority rule, either. It's the logical conclusion based on the facts concerning sage mode. Omnibender's post from yesterday should have ended this discussion: From the moment you can balance natural energy with the other two enough so that it's stable, you've made senjutsu chakra, meaning you're in Sage Mode. And sign your posts. Jetdeagon (talk) 21:21, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
Jerks says: all evidence is the above, and no one is interested in beliefs and neither this is an elementary school where people bully NaruHina. The majority has agreed on it thus there's no new evidence for a change. The more ignorant you will be, the more the jerk will let you eat it--Elveonora (talk) 21:25, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
- At Jetdeagon and Elevonora, until Orochimaru actually uses it, he shouldn't be listed as a Sage Mode user. Fukasaku himself said Sage Mode requires a high amount of chakra, like Jiraiya and Naruto. Two of the people who have a 5 in the stat in the databook. While Orochimaru has a 3.5, which isn't enough. Not to mention that again, Orochimaru would have been listed as a Sage Mode user in the Third Databook, but he wasn't. Only Jiraiya. --NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 21:27, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
the walls must be either extra hollow or your room soundproof.--Elveonora (talk) 21:30, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
- Elveonora, appealing to the majority as well as being extremely rude isn't helping your case. You keep ignoring these actual facts we know about Sage Mode so you can just have Orochimaru have it. Let me guess, it'll make Itachi stronger since he beat a Senjutsu using Orochimaru right?--NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 21:33, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
Lord this is really long ._. when I said "to me" I meant from what I read on the Sage Mode article and in the manga. In any case we should wait on more evidence before carrying on this discussion because it doesn't seem to be going anywhere but towards an argument.--Cerez365^{™}^{(talk)} 21:35, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
You seriously are retarded, I don't care what people think of me. Your logic is like that of a 12 years old, god even mixing Itachi and "vs" factor into it ... common troll stuff--Elveonora (talk) 21:38, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
@Jetdeagon ok then I'm resolved :) Thank you.
- Elveonora, stop calling me or other people 'retarded'. You aren't helping your case. And 'common troll stuff', its something people are motivated for lately. Again, what's wrong with waiting until he actually USES it, Jetdeagon, Elveonora? --NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 21:41, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
- Because your argument is flawed. You admit he can use senjutsu chakra but not sage mode, when in reality the moment you create senjutsu chakra you ARE in sage mode. That is exactly the same as saying someone who uses Lava Release shouldn't be listed as a Fire Release user until they use a Fire Release technique.Jetdeagon (talk) 21:44, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
- But having Senjutsu chakra isn't enough. Its implied that it was via his cursed seal. Again, why would he even need Jugo's enzyme if he himself had achieved Sage Mode? And Kabuto even said he tried, and failed when he went to the Cave...after researching Jugo. And to actually have Sage Mode, you have to have a monstrous amount of chakra. --NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 21:50, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
- Elveonora, stop calling me or other people 'retarded'. You aren't helping your case. And 'common troll stuff', its something people are motivated for lately. Again, what's wrong with waiting until he actually USES it, Jetdeagon, Elveonora? --NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 21:41, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
How do you want me to take you seriously and not to insult you while you ignore everything that's being stated in manga and replacing it with your flawed version of ... logic? I don't think that's even a logic. His Cursed Seals posses his Senjutsu chakra and he has absorbed his power from Kabuto, thus can use Sage Mode.--Elveonora (talk) 21:48, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
- His cursed Seals use Senjutsu Chakra because of Jugo. And insulting people isn't a way to get your argument across and you know it. We know that Sage Mode requires a high amount of chkara. Orochimaru doesn't have a high amount of chakra. Its simple as that. Until he actually uses it, he can't be called a user.--NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 21:50, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
Jugo doesn't use Senjutsu chakra ... a usage of natural energy =/= always a sage mode, a control over/manipulation of natural energy and forming of senjutsu chakra = sage mode. Also Kabuto has proven your argument invalid, and Oro did control senjutsu chakra so stop repeating yourself already--Elveonora (talk) 21:54, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
- Jugo uses Sage Transformation to passively absorb Natural energy. It'd be easy for someone like Orochimaru to balance that with chakra to make it Sage Chakra. And no, Kabuto, who had improved since then, doesn't disprove it. You need a massive amount of chakra for Sage Mode, which Fukasaku says.--NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 21:58, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
Sage Chakra = Senjutsu = Sage Mode O_O are you even listening? And your Kabuto case is only "maybe, what if, he must have" etc. no solid facts only assumptions--Elveonora (talk) 22:03, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
- http://www.narutobase.net/manga/Naruto/412/11 Straight from Fukasaku's mouth: "You have to have enormous amounts of chakra, otherwise you won't be able to draw out Nature's Energy. That's how great it is." Orochimaru doesn't have enormous amounts of chakra. And how is fighting for two days straight not proof that Kabuto has gotten a stamina increase? Orochimaru worked around his inability to draw Nature Energy using the Cursed Seals and Jugo's enzyme.--NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 22:06, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
Anyone want to kindly explain why this one section is taking up half the talkpage ? >_< --Speysider ^{Talk Page | My Image Uploads | Tabber Code | My Wiki | Channel} 22:05, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
I would said aliens, bit it's NaruHinaSuperSaiyMan Mega ignorant troll syndrome--Elveonora (talk) 22:07, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, I'm a troll because I'm following the rules set for Sage Mode that the manga set down? Bringing up multiple sources where Orochimaru could have easily been made as a user but wasn't? 'Mega Ignorant Troll', more like someone who wants to preserve the validity of the article. Manga flat out says that only people like Naruto and Jiraiya can use Sage Mode due to their high chakra levels. Orochimaru was given an above average chakra level by Kishimoto himself, making him inable of actually using it. What's wrong with a little patience and waiting for more information like we are supposed to?--NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 22:17, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
I think for everyone's benefit that this discussion stops as we have insults being thrown around in every message. I'm heartily sick of being spammed notification emails about this talkpage now =.= --Speysider ^{Talk Page | My Image Uploads | Tabber Code | My Wiki | Channel} 22:19, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
@dude, there's nothing to wait for. He has already used it, that's why he is listed. He is yet to use a named Senjutsu technique though, for sure. Anyways, isn't it time for an archive already?--Elveonora (talk) 22:23, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
- Except he kind of didn't. He used Senjutsu chakra...through something made specifically to help with that. Cerez said we should wait until there's more information.--NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 22:26, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
You are ignoring passages of text and are speculating, but whatever ... I'm done now. Also it isn't necessary to spam other user's talkpages about the issue as they should be posting their opinion on this here. Closing this down, making a continuation--Elveonora (talk) 22:46, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
as of latest chapter - continuation
Opinions, no wars ... edit: mostly from users that are yet to say a word on the issue--Elveonora (talk) 22:50, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
- Fukasaku said that Sage Mode requires enormous amounts of chakra, which is why Naruto and Jiraiya could learn it. Orochimaru doesn't have massive amounts of chakra, having only a 3.5 in the databook. Jugo's Sage Transformation gives him a work around so he can use Sage Chakra without having massive amounts of chakra, hence why he was able to use Sage Chakra to observe while within Anko's seal.--NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 23:30, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
- "Sigh"...i don't remember seeing a talk page topic being this long since the whole Jiraiya being stronger than Itachi thing months ago...and here i thought people were losing interest in the wiki...xD. Now seriously speaking...re-analyzing previous chapters and combining that with the recent information, i believe that Orochimaru has learned how to use sage mode/senjutsu...but i am against saying he fully mastered or controled it...his lack of usage in major battles, plus the statements done by both Kabuto and Fukasaku all together inply that Orochimaru at least didn't master Sage Mode for a viable use in battle, hence why he likely experimented on Jugo and created the Cursed Seals...likely his mastery of it was lesser than Jiraiya's and the fact that his host bodies couldn't withstand it add to that fact. But the fact that with the nature of the Cursed Seals, plus the fact that he not only released Kabuto's Sage Mode and absorbed the senjutsu chakra does state knowledge of how to use it...thus a very imperfect Sage Mode. Darksusanoo (talk) 23:47, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
- About releasing Kabuto's Sage Mode, its more like it cancelled out on its own when Orochimaru took his chakra and power away, leaving Kabuto unable to sustain it. --NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 23:56, July 12, 2012 (UTC)
- Which is pretty much the same...you need proper knowledge to do either, again going to the fact that Orochimaru has the ability of going Sage Mode. Darksusanoo (talk) 00:21, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
- Its basically like cancelling genjutsu. Jiraiya sucks at it, but he can cancel it. As for the article, it'd be better for us to wait for Orochimaru to tell Sasuke 'Wait for me, I'll enter Sage Mode' like during a battle. Because as of now, he doesn't have it as far as information goes, not even Jiraiya's version.--NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 00:43, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
Orochimaru's stats in the databooks also reflect his host body. That's why he has such a variation of height and weight between the databooks. His aptitude to jutsu isn't affected because that's a mental capacity, stuff that relies on the strength of the host body would be affected. I find that a logical explanation for why he would be able to use Sage Mode while having 3.5 as stamina, because that's the stamina of the host body, not the he would have learned senjutsu with. I don't know if anyone has brought it up, but Orochimaru putting his senjutsu chakra in the seals when applying them would mean he was capable of using it, at least to a limited extent, in order to brand Sasuke early in the series. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 01:36, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
- I thought the stats don't take into account that stuff, especially the physical ones. Orochimaru would have a 3.5 regardless, no matter if his body was up to it. The manga even goes in he failed to achieve Sage Mode. What did Shonensuki say of that scene?--NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 03:53, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
actually it makes sense...exept for the retarded guy...Saeyatachi (talk) 01:54, July 13, 2012 (UTC)Saeyatachi
- ...yes, insult. Because you have nothing better. Why can't we just wait? And Omni, why don't you discipline Saeyatachi and Elveonora for their blatant insults?--NaruHina fan/SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 03:53, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
Again as i said...if you join the little bits, inplications and the latest information, Orochimaru is Sage and Sage Mode user, but as Omni stated his lack of stamina and/or other flaws makes his SM unviable in battle, which would expalin the reason he created the Cursed Seals in the first place. He may not be capable of using it in battle, but his senjutsu can and was put to other uses. Darksusanoo (talk) 02:41, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
okay...i take back what i've said..sorry...but let's end this discussion.let's just wait for the next chapters...i bet that would explain things..okay?Saeyatachi (talk) 05:24, July 13, 2012 (UTC)Saeyatachi
- Yeah, lets wait. We want to be absolutely sure before we add Orochimaru as a Sage Mode user. We don't want to make a mistake.--SuperSaiyaMan (talk) 07:10, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
When a section becomes as big as this as fast as it did, my fine-combing becomes less fine. Between this and the message I see you left in my talk page, which I have yet to read, I'll go into detail. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:32, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
I have nothing against Sage Mode being removed from his infobox, but at least it should be mentioned in abilities section that he has some control over senjutsu, to let people make their own opinion of that till the manga shows him using it if that's BIG of an issue ...--Elveonora (talk) 20:56, July 13, 2012 (UTC)
As I recall' Kabuto specifically mentioned his host bodies weren't capable of handling Natural Energy, hence Orochimaru didn't ever enter an actual Sage Mode. Absorbing Natural energy =/= entering Sage Mode. Skitts (talk) 02:25, July 14, 2012 (UTC)
Host bodies =/= Orochimaru himself--Elveonora (talk) 16:55, July 14, 2012 (UTC)
It seems somewhat fair to say Orochimaru can use Sage Mode in his abilities and remove it ('Sage Mode') from his info box. However I think it is very silly. This is because Orochimaru uses Senjutsu chakra; Fukasaku clearly told us that only Sages can use Senjutsu chakra. Citing Fukasaku is important because he said this when we were being introduced to the mechanisms of the Sage Mode.
"Sage" denotes someone who can use Sage/Senjutsu chakra - Fukasaku made this very clear just before Naruto jumped into the toad oil. Basic reading comprehension will tell you this: Naruto was learning how to use Sage chakra; Naruto is about to give up; Fukasaku says only those who don't give up can become Sages. Going by this, to be a Sage you need to control Senjutsu chakra.
Now bung in that Orochimaru also went to Ryuchi cave... Unlike Kabuto he was unable to become a Perfect Sage. Notice how he (Kabuto) never said anything remotely like "Orochimaru was unable to become a Sage like me", he said "true/perfect". That was a big deal when it came out, Sage Orochimaru was never considered as we never saw him. Till we were told he uses Senjutsu chakra.
To be honest, with all the information we have: I think the info boxes really should link Orochimaru and Sage Mode. One thing to note is we arguably have a feat point towards Sage Orochimaru. Chapter 290, how did Orochimaru know that team 7 were hiding in the bushes? We don't have him listed as a chakra sensor- but Sage Mode sheds light onto it.
If you really wanna, you can think of it like this: Orochimaru is an imperfect Sage because he looks snake like; Kabuto is a perfect Sage because he looks like a dragon.
In short: I think Sage Mode and Orochimaru should be linked, because we have a wealth of info pointing towards it. --Jingo12 (talk) 22:47, July 16, 2012 (UTC)
I agree, except Oro not being a perfect Sage. When he absorbs his own chakra/senjutsu chakra from Kabuto, his hands gets scales like Kabuto's but turns normal afterwards, indicating he has a complete mastery over it unlike Kabuto, as the latter had physical transformation. I think people take the "dragon" like too literal, Kabuto could refer to overall abilities--Elveonora (talk) 23:12, July 16, 2012 (UTC)
Not quite. Juugo in many translations - Mangateers; Mangastream; Mangapanda; Yagami1211 (Narutoforums); and Geg (Narutoforums) - explicitly says that Orochimaru released the Sage Mode prior to absorbing his own chakra from Kabuto. Kabuto did take a lot of Orochimaru chakra from Anko. Anko also had that sort of scaly look when she had some of Kabuto's flesh.
Kabuto was very clear when he said Orochimaru couldn't find the body to bear the ability (Sage Mode) and couldn't become a *perfect* Sage. Orochimaru can use Senjutsu chakra and Kabuto made a deal about going from a human, to a snake, to a dragon. And we can clearly say Orochimaru stagnated at the 'snake' stage.
Whereas Kabuto's jutsu indicate 'dragon'. It makes more sense when you think of the Chinese dragon whom sort of has a snake-like body, but with the legs; best shown via Kabuto's White Snake form and Manda 2.
Kabuto said a perfect Sage Mode was how he was able to completely surpass Orochimaru. If anything that does *not* suggest that Orochimaru "has a complete mastery over [Sage Mode]". Especially when you consider Orochimaru undid the Sennin transformation prior taking his own chakra back.
The only issue is: we don't know if Orochimaru has yet to show us his Sage Mode, or if he's constantly been in Sage Mode. However I am sure of one thing: he doubtlessly has it; the information we have access to does suggest so.
---
On side note regarding the issue overall:
"Another way is to study under snakes from the Ryūchi Cave where Orochimaru and Kabuto Yakushi learnt it." - from the Sage Mode article. It makes no sense to *not* have Orochimaru on the info box with this line here.
"At some point, Orochimaru began researching the source of Jūgo's powers and uncovered the Ryūchi Cave, where he and later Kabuto Yakushi learned Sage Mode" - From Orochimaru's article. It makes no sense *not* to have Sage Mode on Orochimaru's info box with this line.
Considering these why should we say Orochimaru has Sage Mode, yet disregard those bits in the respective articles by not acknowledging them on the relevant info boxes?
--Jingo12 (talk) 14:29, July 17, 2012 (UTC)
Ask NaruHina, his voice is gospel--Elveonora (talk) 15:11, July 17, 2012 (UTC)
It is in fact true that that statement makes no sense if we're staving off the addition of Orochimaru to the technique. That will be fixed along with all the other things that "don't make sense not to have..." I must say I'm proud of SuperSaiyaMan, generally he has some way-off interpretations of chapters, but this time he stood his ground and argued his point well (from what I read, all of this is prime tl;dr stuff) and seeing that this is what the community has decided, adjustments just have to be made. All will be revealed/confirmed eventually.--Cerez365^{™}^{(talk)} 16:24, July 17, 2012 (UTC)
Having said that, out of my walls of text, while discussing the adjustments I feel that Orochimaru using Senjutsu chakra should be considered. Having read the arguments, I took it upon myself to go and re-read quite a number of chapters. No-where did I find - facts, interpretations, hints etc - that it was at all possible to use Senjutsu chakra without having the Sage Mode.
---
About NaruHina fan's - aka SuperSaiyaMan - stance there is a number of things I found wrong with his premise. First and foremost, where he mentioned boldly that "Kabuto explicitly said Orochimaru tried learning Sage Mode, but couldn't achieve it"; with my re-reading I didn't come across anything like that. I only saw Kabuto saying unlike himself, Orochimaru was unable to become a perfect Sage. In a similar vein you can say unlike Naruto, Jiraiya was unable to become a perfect Sage. That aside, Orochimaru making use of Senjutsu chakra is a large red light to over look. Even imperfect Sages are capable of using Senjutsu chakra, the best example being Jiraiya.
Further NaruHina fan also relies on the "Orochimaru hasn't shown Sage Mode" stance. That is a fair stance, though we also have to consider that we've never seen Orochimaru go in an all out battle in the same way some other characters - like Jiraiya - have.
There are other things like in the first talk (prior the continuation) where he made the assertion that Orochimaru's original body couldn't handle the Sage Mode. I saw nothing implicating the original body, I saw things implicating the host bodies, however. Hence the "he couldn't find a body"; that can be taken as Orochimaru couldn't go Sage Mode, period. Though, as I said him using Senjutsu chakra is a large red light to overlook.
Another thing I noticed was TheUltimate3's line: "Gathering natural chakra is one thing, but actually entering Sage Mode is another." From what I gathered, the former is completely dependent on the latter; you cannot form Sage chakra without Sage Mode.
In all, I agree he did well standing his ground. However if I thought he argued the point well, I wouldn't be contesting it. In all I really think the actual fact it boils down is we haven't seen Orochimaru use the Sage Mode.
Regardless of opinions, I think the articles need a definitive stance. We can't say that Orochimaru is a user in the articles, but not acknowledge it on the infoboxes. Needs to be he is, or isn't- but you acknowledged that, Cerez365.
I dunno about you, but personally I didn't see anything about the community as a whole agreeing on this (mind you, I've only seen the Sage Mode talk page). It still seems to be debatable.
Perhaps a good fix could be listing Orochimaru as a Sage Mode user in the info boxes but putting "(presumably)" next to it. As it was done with Sasuke and Tsukuyomi for some time, long ago.--Jingo12 (talk) 17:28, July 17, 2012 (UTC)
I believe as they stand, the article state what we know: Orochimaru has used Senjutsu and not Sage Mode. Because the two are so closely linked and he isn't Jūgo nor any of his clan members it is inevitable that the information is going to get crossed in the process which is in part due to the fact that it isn't any one person editing the article at all times. I personally believe that Orochimaru is able to use Sage Mode, hell I at times hope/think Tsunade can do the same, but it isn't all the time that we're going to be able to represent everything any one person wants, which is why we wait for more concrete evidence before moving forward.--Cerez365^{™}^{(talk)} 19:00, July 17, 2012 (UTC)
Speaking of concrete evidence, I must ask: what evidence suggests one can use Senjutsu chakra without Sage Mode? Notably evidence which shows you don't need to be a Sage to use Sage chakra. I'm finding it a hard to readily accept the community notion without fully understanding the rationale behind it.--Jingo12 (talk) 01:03, July 18, 2012 (UTC)
- And I find it hard to readily accept that one single persons' relentless opposition to everyone else constitutes "community notion". Jetdeagon (talk) 04:19, July 18, 2012 (UTC)
Exactly, since when is one person the "major opposition" that's butt-licking. I thought the majority decides upon something, so how is the word of one person final now?--Elveonora (talk) 11:34, July 18, 2012 (UTC)
Sorry to bring this up again, but I really think this should be addressed. Firstly because there are members who don't believe this was a community decision.
Lastly because of the fact that this article would probably confuse readers of this wiki: Orochimaru is classed as a 'Sage' in his article, the Sage Mode and Ryuuchi Cave articles that Orochimaru learnt Sage Mode. Yet the Sage Mode info box doesn't acknowledge this. Think of it from a reader's perspective: you read Orochimaru has Sage Mode in different articles, yet Orochimaru isn't listed as a user on the infobox of Sage Mode? It would be rather puzzling.
That's the reason I reckon these adjustments that Cerez spoke of should be made soon.
Now I about my stance, I'll say the: about the "Orochimaru hasn't shown Sage Mode" stance, we haven't seen Fukasaku and Shima use it, yet we've put them there on the infobox. Using the same line of logic, you can easily put Orochimaru's names.
Second, surely it should be enough to know that Orochimaru has actually learned Sage Mode (according to the articles on this wiki) to list him under 'users' on the infobox.
Lastly (linking to the point above), for the sake of consistency it would be better to add Orochimaru as a user. It would flow well with the other articles.--Jingo12 (talk) 19:02, July 22, 2012 (UTC)
People assume that when someone has not been seen using a technique, he/she can't do it ... like people thought that Itachi used his whole "arsenal" against Sasuke during their fight, only to pull out extra techniques from his arse when reincarnated. Sage Mode requires to stay calm in order to gather natural energy (with the exception of Kabuto) or to have summons to do it for the user ... we haven't seen Orochimaru fighting much, only "playing" with Sarutobi only to pull Edo Tensei as his card, then against Naruto/Kurama and I bet there wasn't any time to sit and concentrate during that ... neither in his "deathbed" during Sasuke fight.--Elveonora (talk) 20:02, July 22, 2012 (UTC)
Not to mention the fact that even if we haven't seen it from him, that doesn't nullify the fact that from the moment you can balance natural energy with the other two enough so that it's stable, you've made senjutsu chakra, meaning you're in Sage Mode. (quoted from Omni). We ***know*** he can create and use senjutsu chakra which means he can use sage mode. Not listing him would be akin to not listing Mei Terumi as a Fire Release user since we haven't seen her using a fire release technique. We ***know*** she can use fire release, but she hasn't used one so why list her? it's the same thing.Jetdeagon (talk) 20:21, July 22, 2012 (UTC)
I agree. I also would like to add that we should carefully consider the Fukasaku and Shima thing: we know they use Senjutsu- but we've not seen them officially use Sage Mode. Yet we list them as users of Sage Mode.
In a similar vein, we know Orochimaru uses Senjutsu and has used (putting the Curse Seal on people) Senjutsu. Thus we can easily put his name on the infobox just as we have with Fukasaku and Shima.--Jingo12 (talk) 22:14, July 22, 2012 (UTC)
Snake Sage Mode and Markings
Something just crossed my mind. Are we sure that the markings around Kabuto's eyes weren't there before he entered Sage Mode? Mayhaps that's how they are on Orochimaru as well? I was wondering because the way it's mentioned makes it sound as though the markings extended because of the mode.--Cerez365^{™}^{(talk)} 10:43, July 27, 2012 (UTC)
We don't know, it's likely that Snake Sage Mode users have the same snake-pupils and markings around eyes, but Orochimaru was like that since child, thus we confusion and lack of information.--Elveonora (talk) 15:43, July 27, 2012 (UTC)
5 minutes
Shouldn't it be stated that Sage Mode can only be maintained for five minutes? Fukasaku did say this to Naruto in chapter 420.--98.109.95.216 (talk) 01:55, October 22, 2012 (UTC)
vagueness
The article says:
- There are numerous advantages while using toad Sage Mode. These include:
- The user's physical strength, speed, stamina, reflexes, and durability dramatically increase.
- The user's ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijutsu become more powerful.
- The user can harness the natural energy surrounding them, turning it into an extension of their body, which increases the reach of their attacks.
- The user gains the ability to sense chakra around them.
Then:
- There are numerous advantages granted while using snake Sage Mode. These include:
- The user's perception abilities, reflexes and speed dramatically increase.
- The user's ninjutsu becomes more powerful.
- The user gains further access to snake anatomy, such as their brille, which can be used to lock out light as well as stop visual-based genjutsu from affecting them.
- They are also able to perform abilities that are characteristic of snakes, such as dislocating their jaw, although this is not exclusive to this mode.
To begin, both should be identical. It's the very same concept only taught from different animals... both use natural energy. Toad Sage Mode provides increased perception too, it's the very same thing as the sensing chakra around them one, thus TSM point 4 and SSM point 1 advantage 1 are the same. Snake Sage Mode also obviously increases physical strength, stamina and durability. I don't see why with SSM genjutsu and taijutsu shouldn't also become stronger. The anatomy part also isn't a power, Kabuto simply got snake eyes just like Naruto gets toad eyes. That would be like listing Jiraiya's toad limbs as a power.
I vote for a reformulation... "Advantages" part should be a single section, the same with "Forms" with pictures and a short note about the difference of looks.
Not to mention Frog Kata isn't a part of Sage Mode... it's like other senjutsu techniques from Mount Myōboku, only a senjutsu Technique very likely unique to toads, just like Sage Art: Inorganic Reincarnation and Sage Art: White Rage Technique are taught by snakes. EDIT: the jaw part should also be removed as it's not an ability granted by sage mode--Elveonora (talk) 18:35, November 26, 2012 (UTC)
If I'm not mistaken we've been over this when "snake" Sage Mode was introduced. Not because they are both Sage Modes mean that everything taught by the snakes is taught by the toads, but, at the same time the reverse can be true. What is written in the article is what we know, not what we assume should be obvious to everyone. At no point during its use did I see Kabuto shown any form of enhanced strength, stamina, or durability. So how can we just assume it?
As for the other part, technically every senjutsu is a part of Sage Mode. Based on its definition, you cannot manipulate senjutsu without going into Sage Mode or Sennin Transformation in Jūgo clan's case.--Cerez365^{™}^{(talk)} 19:09, November 26, 2012 (UTC)
Exactly, not everything taught by snakes is also by toads, that's why I said the "sage techniques/arts" differ, but there's only one Sage Mode. Take into consideration both logic, and that both use the same workings of absorbing natural energy around, and that there NEVER was a mention of "snake sage mode" nor "toad sage mode" only Sage Mode... the terms are made up by us the community just to distinguish them while there's no difference outside looks at all. Also since when blocking a sword with hands isn't a proof of strength? At what point did Naruto show increased stamina in the mode? He has PLENTY of that even outside of it, so this one is hard to portray. There was no sign of being low on chakra or exhaustion on Kabuto. Cursed Seals give the same enhancements as Sage Mode, durability included... what more "proof" do you need?--Elveonora (talk) 04:37, November 27, 2012 (UTC)
Structure of the article
If you look at Kabuto's Sage Mode, it's impossible to distinguish between:
- the actual Snake Sage Mode
- Juugo's abilities
- Orochimaru's abilities
- Suigetsu's abilities
- Karin's abilities
Kabuto's sensing prowess is a combination of Sage Mode and Karin's abilities. Kabuto's healing is a combination of Orochimaru's and Karin's abilities. The ability to change your body exists with Juugo's, Orochimaru's, and Suigetsu's abilities. The way Kabuto looks is a combination of Sage Mode, Juugo's DNA and Orochimaru's DNA.
Given all that, wouldn't it be a much better idea to get rid of the heading "Snake Sage Mode" and use the heading "Kabuto's Sage Mode"? You could even extend it to the whole article:
- General description of Sage Mode
- Description of Jiraiya's Sage Mode
- Description of Naruto's Sage Mode
- Description of Kabuto's Sage Mode
It would also make it easier to turn the lists in this article into proper paragraphs.--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 18:09, December 15, 2012 (UTC)
As of my topic above, I disagree completely with the article the way it is now. Also Kabuto's sensing prowess being partially from Karin? Now then, that's a speculation. The way I get it, the only reason why Kabuto has physically changed is due to Orochimaru's DNA + Sage Transformation. And again, both Sage Modes grant equal advantages, there are no such things as "toad sm" and "snake sm" mentioned in the series--Elveonora (talk) 20:59, December 15, 2012 (UTC)
- I saw your topic. We both agree that the article in its current state is bad. We agree that there is no such thing as Snake Sage Mode. And I think you agree with the structure I proposed, because you mentioned something similar.
- About Karin. We know that Karin is good at sensing. We know that Kabuto has Karin's DNA. We don't know whether that influences Kabuto's sensing prowess in Sage Mode. It's just an argument against calling it Snake Sage Mode, and in favour of calling it Kabuto's Sage Mode.
- The article in its current form has 12 section headings for the main content! It has general information listed under Toad Sage Mode. It has irrelevant information listed in the usage section. It might as well not have an introduction. It mentions advantages in three sections. It mentions disadvantages for Toad Sage Mode that are actually disadvantages for everyone. It's a mess.
- It also ignores that we have essentially seen 4 different versions of Sage Mode. The basic one is the one we see when Fukasaku trains Naruto in Frog Kata, and has the disadvantage that you run out of sage chakra. That problem can be solved by fusing with Fukasaku and Shima as we've seen with Jiraiya (the 2nd version of Sage Mode). Naruto solves the problem with Shadow Clones, making it the 3rd version. Kabuto solves it with Juugo's DNA, making it the 4th version. But wouldn't guess that from the way the article is written.--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 22:05, December 15, 2012 (UTC)
- That is incorrect. You're looking at Sage Mode as changing to a different version based on how it's used, but that's not right. We don't know about the Snake version of Sage Mode, , imperfect and perfect. Ma and Pa on your shoulders is just them using Amphibian Sage Technique to sit on their shoulder. That is not a different version of Sage Mode.
- Also, having subsections is not a problem. We are an encyclopedia, we chronicle information. If that information requires heading sections, then it gets heading sections.--TheUltimate3 ^{(talk)} 16:17, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
- What Fukasaku explains about Sage Mode; what the difference is between perfect sage mode and imperfect sage mode; it's all applicable to Snake Sage Mode, because we haven't been told otherwise. They're all simply Sage Mode. Kabuto uses the benefits of Sage Transformation to overcome the same problem for which Naruto used Shadow Clones.
- Sage Mode on its own is only useful if you want to rearrange the stone statues of toads. Or if you can prepare Sage Mode in advance; ambush your enemy; and defeat him quickly before you run out of Sage Chakra. So yes, Sage Mode+Amphibian Sage Technique is a different version of Sage Mode, because it's far more practical than Sage Mode on its own. Without solutions like Amphibian Sage Technique, Shadow Clones and Sage transformation, all that's left of Sage Mode is an incomplete technique. So it's not just different uses; it's an incomplete technique with 3 different ways to make it complete.
- So you're saying that heading sections like "advantages" and "disadvantages" are required? You're saying that headings that use the phrase "Snake Sage Mode" are required; even though that's not canon? You're reply ignores the basic fact that sections shouldn't be used if you only have one paragraph of information.
- In the end this article shows that you can't keep adding information to it and hope it remains making sense. Sometimes you have to reorganise the information.--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 20:19, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
- Mistake number 1: Assuming things are the same when we are not told otherwise. We don't assume when we aren't told.
- Mistake number 2: No, Sage Mode + Amphibian Sage Technique is not another version of Sage Mode. It's Sage Mode with two old toads merged to your shoulder. Naruto could go Sage Mode perfectly well by remaining still and gathering natural energy. The entire point of the two toads was so one can do so in combat. Naruto has gone into Sage Mode on and off perfectly multiple times during the war without the need of a clone (or just a clone of him do it instead of his actual body), still perfect Sage Mode.
- Clarification number 1: If they are required, then yes. They could also be moved into paragraph format, but I feel it's easier to have them in a listed format, that way one wants to know what the disadvantages of Sage Mode is, one just has to go to the article, click the header for disadvantages, and wow look there it is.
- In the end, the issue I'm having is your belief that there are random versions of Sage Mode when, as of now, we are aware of there only being two and that's the difference between Toad and Snake. Yes, while the name may not be canon, the fact that a perfect Snake Sage has different properties than a Toad Sage is notable (Naruto is a perfect Toad Sage, the only differences is the pigment around his eyes. Meanwhile Kabuto is a perfect Snake Sage, and he gained a lot of snake features.)--TheUltimate3 ^{(talk)} 20:42, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
@Ultimate, those are physical/visual differences, there are none in benefits. Also the former might be only due to sage transformation/jugo's dna/orochimaru's dna and not a common result--Elveonora (talk) 21:10, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
@TheUltimate3
Mistake 1 = Assuming things are different when we have no information that says otherwise. Which means we can only look at what the manga has given us, and that's ONE Sage Mode.
Mistake 2 = The whole point of Sage Mode is that it's useless in combat UNLESS
- you arrive at the battle already in Sage Mode (like Naruto did against Pain); or
- you manage to buy yourself some time to get into Sage Mode (like the clumsy toad did for Jiraiya; like the Alliance did for Naruto; and which Kurama's Chakra Cloak did for Naruto)
and even then you have to make sure that:
- you either beat your opponent before you drop out of Sage Mode; or
- you find a solution to the problem that you can't gather natural energy while moving.
Buying the time to get into Sage Mode is the easy problem. Trying to maintain Sage Mode is the difficult problem, and without a solution it's useless for combat purposes.
Mistake 3 = If you want to see Sage Mode as nothing more than gathering natural energy and mixing it to create Sage Chakra which would lead to Sage Mode, than the article shouldn't need any of the other information. You could pretty much copy and past Fukasaku's explanation to Naruto into this article and lock the page. All the other information should then be moved to the appropriate character pages. If you're going to argue a certain position, at least draw the logical conclusion from it.
Clarification number 1 = We are aware of 3 schools of teaching; 3 schools that teach Sage Mode. We now know that the Toads teach Sage Mode and that the Snakes teach Sage Mode. We were never told that these were *different* Sage Modes. The only thing they might teach different are the ways to use Sage Mode, and their preferred solutions to some of the problems associated with Sage Mode.
Clarification number 2 = We haven't been shown what the Snakes teach. We don't even know how a person that has been taught Sage Mode by the Snakes looks like. What we have seen is the end result of: (a) the Sage Mode as taught by the Snakes; and (b) a shitload of DNA modifications done by Kabuto himself. In fact, Kabuto's Sage Mode could be seen as a hybrid of Sage Mode and Sage Transformation with no answers to questions like: (i) What are the benefits of that combination?; (ii) What are the drawbacks of that combination?; and (iii) How would such a combination change the looks of someone in Sage Mode as taught by the Snakes?.
In the end Kabuto's Sage Mode is exactly the same as Sage Mode+Amphibian Sage Technique but with the added problem that we can't distinguish between the two. You're drawing the illogical conclusion that one is a different version of Sage Mode while the other is not, based on the same facts and using the same arguments. The only thing we know for sure is that perfect sage mode taught by the Snakes will lead to a different pigmentation around the eyes, though we don't know why and how the pigmentation becomes different. We haven't been told that Sage Mode taught by the Snakes will lead to different properties (e.g. speed and strength) in Sage Mode.
What we disagree about is basically this:
- Sage Mode = impractical Sage Mode as Fukasaku taught it to Naruto before trying the Amphibian Sage Technique and failing
- Sage Mode = impractical Sage Mode plus ways to make Sage Mode usable
Either way, the article needs rewriting to make it clear.--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 23:31, December 16, 2012 (UTC)
I almost completely agree with you, I'd rewrite the article myself, but I don't want to start an edit war. The way it's now is not only incorrect but confusing/misleading.--Elveonora (talk) 01:25, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
- Wait for others to chime in on opinions and thoughts. My largest issue with what is proposed is the idea that there are 4 different versions of Sage Mode based on if a toad is on your shoulder or not, but I don't have the patients to continue reading/responding to such incredibly long responses.
- Rewriting an article is a bigger task than a single section, wait for others to voice opinions before making a move.--TheUltimate3 ^{(talk)} 04:46, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
Not really a rewriting, just merging of sections, separating of others, cutting here and pasting there etc. also removal of speculation--Elveonora (talk) 05:16, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
How is this article confusing? I don't know how much this will help but as the article stands now I am fine with it. The only reason it is confusing to you guys is because you're taking things you don't have a clue about and adding them to the mix. It should be:
- Sage Mode-Toads
- mention all we know
- Also make note of the perfect balance and imperfect balance that the two disciples have achieved
- acknowledge the traditional method (with a sage toad to aid in process)
- also mention the way Naruto uses it (with clones)
- mention all we know
- Sage Mode- Snakes
- Assume that everything Kabuto did then is a product of Sage Mode unless/until mentioned/told otherwise. Then annotations can be made.
All that information is represented on the articles, it's just that you have all gone too far in dissecting Kabuto's Sage Mode. I realise that the people who always have problems with the way articles are, are the ones that go off on tangents and want to jump the proverbial gun and we don't do that here. Once the information is available to us, where we can reference it, and have evidence then that's when we move, not before. I'm not sure if you guys understand or no, but this is a method that has to be used to streamline content on the wikia so we don't lose credibility in the information that is found here.--Cerez365^{™}^{(talk)} 13:05, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
The only thing I could advocate for regarding this page, is that the image in the infobox is no longer accurate and a neutral one, possibly just showing the mixing/balancing of natural energy would be better.--Cerez365^{™}^{(talk)} 13:09, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
- @Cerez365...That assumption flies in the face of everything we've been shown in the manga. Kabuto's appearance was already changing when he put Orochimaru's DNA in himself. And everyone that uses a derivative of Juugo's abilities changes his appearance, just like Juugo himself does. Kabuto is using Sage Mode and Sage Transformation together, just like Jiraiya uses Sage Mode and Amphibian Sage Technique together. You can't just assume that everything Kabuto does is the result of Sage Mode, because it's explicitly said that it isn't. Why else would the DNA of Juugo, Karin and Suigetsu be mentioned?
- The structure should be:
- Sage Mode
- Mention all we know (basically everything that Fukasaku explained).
- Mention the existence perfect sage mode and imperfect sage mode.
- Mention the existence of 3 places where Sage Mode is taught, and that the pigmentation around the eyes show at which place you learned Sage Mode.
- Mention that most users have a method of making it more usable in combat.
- Mention all we know (basically everything that Fukasaku explained).
- Jiraiya's Sage Mode
- Mention that Jiraiya is an imperfect sage, and that he uses the traditional method as taught by the toads to make Sage Mode usable in combat and refer to the article Amphibian Sage Technique.
- Naruto's Sage Mode
- Mention that Naruto is a perfect Sage.
- Mention that Naruto couldn't use the method taught by the toads and had to come up with his own solution: Shadow Clones (and how he used it in his battle with Pain, maybe).
- Kabuto's Sage Mode
- Mention that Kabuto learned Sage Mode from the Snakes; that he would therefore look more like a snake than a toad; and that it's unknown how a Sage would look in its pure Snake form.
- Mention that Kabuto used Juugo's DNA and Sage Transformation to solve the same problem that Naruto used Shadow Clones for.
- Mention how Kabuto infused himself with DNA from Karin and Suigetsu and refer to the relevant section in Kabuto's character article.
- Sage Mode
- That's a far more usable and canon compliant structure than the current article has. It also prevents unnecessary duplication of information (see advantages and disadvantages sections). It also allows contributors to compare a specific character's use of Sage Mode against the general characteristics of Sage Mode, instead of forcing a reader to compare and contrast various uses of Sage Mode against eachother.--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 14:46, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
- Kabuto's appearance changed because Orochimaru's cells were fighting to take over Kabuto's body. That has nothing to do with Jūgo. It's akin to Hashirama's cells trying to turn Danzō into a tree, or else have them sprouting his face on his arm and Madara's chest, so you're wrong in that regard.
- It's not an assumption, it's lumping all the information together. I did not say they weren't factors into Kabuto's abilities but as this point, we're unable to discern what is what except for what has been told to us:
- How do you know that Kabuto is using Sage Transformation and not just using Jūgo's ability to passively absorb chakra? How do you know that that's simply how someone who uses snake Sage Mode is supposed to look?
- How do you know that Kabuto's been using Karin's Mind Eye of the Kagura (which is ridiculously impossible to steal via DNA) and just doesn't possess her ability to heal?
- As for Suigetsu, Kabuto was able to copy his Hydrification Technique and create the Body Fluid Shedding Technique.
- There is no such thing as perfect and imperfect Sage Mode. These are terms that we engineered for compartmentalising sake all of which is already mentioned. Ergo, Naruto and Jiraiya's forms don't have to be separated any more than they are now.
- Kabuto's:
- You're assuming that's not what a "pure" Sage would look like. There's nothing to compare it to, so where are you forming your basis from? SPECULATION
“ | Kabuto assimilated the DNA of Jūgo to replicate his clan's ability to passively absorb natural energy, thus allowing him to continuously collect the energy even while moving. | ” |
- Information about the assimilation of DNA unrelated to his Sage Mode is mentioned in his article.
- Like I've said before, I personally see nothing wrong with the article's structure and the most I would change is a picture or two. We are supposed to chronicle what is said in the series not the foregone conclusions that we draw on our own.--Cerez365^{™}^{(talk)} 16:02, December 17, 2012 (UTC)
@Cerez365...You're committing quite a few strawman fallacies to "prove" that I'm wrong. Cut it out!
You insist on using the phrase "ability to passively absorb natural energy". Fine, substitute that every time I use the phrase Sage Transformation. It doesn't alter my argument, but you seem to ignore that part in favour of saying that I'm wrong. (BTW, isn't Sage Transformation the name of Juugo's kekkei genkai?)
You acknowledge that there are factors contributing to Kabuto's appearance and abilities. And yet you fail to draw logical conclusions from that; conclusions that are consistent with the manga.
- We know how a perfect toad sage looks like: perfectly human except for the pigmentation around the eyes. The logical conclusion is that it's the same for a perfect snake sage. Is that speculation? Perhaps, but the significant part is that it's less speculative than the opposite conclusion (which would be that a snake sage is supposed to look like Kabuto did).
- We know that quite a few things that Kabuto assimilated will change your appearance. Sage Mode is just one of several factors that change Kabuto's appearance. The logical conclusion is that we're seeing Kabuto's Sage Mode. The illogical conclusion is that we're seeing "Snake Sage Mode".
- The manga says that there are 3 places that teach Sage Mode. The manga doesn't say that there are 3 different Sage Modes corresponding to 3 different animals. The logical conclusion is that there is only one Sage Mode.
- The manga is pretty clear about the fact that Sage Mode needs something to make it useful in combat. It's why I referred to Sage Mode as an incomplete technique (as well as to clarify my use of the word "version"). The manga has shown us three ways:
- Sage Mode + Amphibian Sage Technique
- Sage Mode + Shadow Clone Technique
- Sage Mode + Jūgo's ability to passively absorb natural energy
Given this information from the manga, it makes sense to treat the three times we've seen Sage Mode used in combat (the "completed" sage mode) just as important as the ("incomplete") Sage Mode.
You say that: We are supposed to chronicle what is said in the series not the foregone conclusions that we draw on our own. But that's exactly the problem with the current article. Calling it "Toad Sage Mode" and "Snake Sage Mode" emphasizes the personal interpretation of fans. Simply calling it "Jiraiya's Sage Mode", "Naruto's Sage Mode" and "Kabuto's Sage Mode" de-emphasizes any personal interpretation and allows us to emphasize what is actually said in the manga.--Joolushko Tunai Fenta Hovalis (talk) 19:03, December 17, 2012 (UTC)