Talk: Shadow Clone Technique

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Tsunade

Doesn't Tsunade use this technique as well (only in the anime)? Look at this video at 0:07 TheMissUzumaki (talk)

I don't know if the omake is counted as an anime-only or it's just like the openings or endings. http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a553/anaspet06/Shakhmootssign_zps2a261e68.png^(Contact) 20:46, October 16, 2013 (UTC)

And plus even if they are we don't know their necessarily shadow clones, they could be llightning for all we know since she is a presumed lightning type --Youngjusticeplayer007 (talk) 20:49, October 16, 2013 (UTC)

Don't recall us ever considering omake canon. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:09, October 16, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, If we did add it, it would have to be noted that it was only in an omake, and it is unknown what kind of clone this is. It is only known that is not a standard bunshin as she was able to physically touch objects. --Quarantine Zone (talk) 01:56, October 17, 2013 (UTC)

Splitting the Soul?

Consider this: Shiki Fujin "performs the sealing by dragging the target's soul into the user whose stomach is branded with the seal's mark. However, the sealing is double-edged as the user's soul is devoured by the Shinigami along with the target's, both souls trapped for all eternity within the fiend's stomach." Now, Hiruzen was able to seal Shodaime and Nidaime using Kagebunshin, with himself attempting to seal Orochimaru, each by letting the Shinigami's arm rip out the souls from both the Shadow Clone and the target he was holding on to. In Manga Ch.124 p.6 the Shinigami can clearly be seen holding two pairs of souls, each consisting of one of the hokages and hiruzen's clones souls mingling together.

Doesn't this imply that when creating Kagebunshin, the very soul is split up among the clones together with chakra? (This could also explain why experience/memory gained by a clone returns to the original, as his soul reunites). I'm not sure if this is appropriate mentioning in Trivia, just a logical thought.--Kiyuna (talk) 10:52, June 6, 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. Also, since the clones transmit epxerience, they should transmit the memory of the pain they felt, thus hurting the user every time his clones vanish from an attack or so. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 10:57, June 6, 2014 (UTC)

Shadow Clone Jutsu, better than Shadow Shuriken Jutsu in rank?

I was wondering something, they say that its harder to clone a weapon than a human being. (or something like that) That's why the "Shadow Shuriken Jutsu" Is A-rank and "Shadow Clone Jutsu" is B-rank, right? But many times, when Naruto clones himself, you see his shadow clones draw a weapon, like a kunai. I don't think that makes sense. Throw some money in your pocket and POOF double it :P can someone please explain or something. Because how it is now, the "Shadow Clone Jutsu" should be higher in rank than the shuriken one. ZingoStar (talk) 07:11, July 10, 2014 (UTC)

Tiger Seal in the Manga

In Chapter 77, Naruto created Shadow Clones with the Tiger Seal. In the trivia section there is only about the Anime, don't we need to add this as well.--MERCURIOUS (talk) 21:09, August 4, 2014 (UTC)

Right. It should be mentioned in the infobox by the way--Elveonora (talk) 21:14, August 4, 2014 (UTC)

Users

There seems to be rather a lot of people listed here as users, who never used this technique and just happened to use Clone Technique or Body Replacement Technique instead. I don't even recall Jiraiya making use of a technique like this either, yet he seems to be listed. Can someone confirm where people used this technique? People like Deidara were not shown using this in the anime/manga, unless it's Novel or Movie. --Sajuuk _[Mod] 10:24, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Well, I'm not too sure how parent techniques were determined in the first place, but I'll start here. Orochimaru & Deidara are users of this technique on the basis that Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique & Suicide Bombing Clone respectively for each of these characters are both derived from Shadow Clone Technique. In other words, you can't use the derived techs without knowing the parent tech technique in some cases. It isn't uniform. As for Jiraiya, I don't recall him ever using it in the manga, but he did in the anime....episode #153. It should probably have the anime only tag, but I'm not sure.--Mina ^{talk | contribs} 10:49, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Where was it stated that "Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique" means you need to have known Shadow Clone Technique? If there's a chapter/episode/db ref that confirms this, would be good to know. o.O

I'll need to check that episode, but pretty sure he never used this technique. But I'll check for sake of ensuring things. --Sajuuk _[Mod] 10:53, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

I have no idea where that was stated. Maybe it's that, how could you create shadow clones of shiruken without knowing how to create shadow clones? It's also possible that previous databooks confirmed this. I really don't know, all I do know is that Shadow Clone Technique was listed as the parent tech, and that's how we've been handling it.--Mina ^{talk | contribs} 10:59, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Basic logic, if you don't know the basic move, how can you use the advanced version of the basic move? O.o

Substitutions have logs (or something else >.>), basic clones don't make poofs.--Omojuze (talk) 11:00, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

That's all but basic logic. First of all, the Shadow Clone Technique is not the basic technique, the Clone Technique is. Second, if you know how to drive a bike, do you automatically know how to drive a car? No. Also, do you need to know how to drive a bike when you want to learn how to drive a car? No. In the same way, you don't need to know how to produce human shadow clones if you want to produce shuriken shadow clones. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 11:10, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

So Tau, you don't think that to perform shuriken shadow clones, you'd need to know how to apply the Shadow Clone Technique? That's essentially all I'm getting at. I didn't even come up with this thing, it's something that's been done around here for a long time, long before I was a member. Also, the bike-car example is a very poor one, because bikes and cars don't operate the same way. Not even close.--Mina ^{talk | contribs} 11:13, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

They don't, I know. But what they have in common is the "driving". I could do the same metaphor with a bike and a unicycle. Or a car and a truck. My point is that you don't need to know one to know a similar one. Both are clones, but one is with humans, the other with shuriken. Why would you even need to know the human version? Shuriken aren't humans after all. And who decided that it's not the other way around? Why don't you need to master the shuriken version first if you want to master the human version? • Seelentau 愛 ^議 11:17, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Lol yes I see your point. You're essentially saying that they're different techniques and that knowing the Shadow Clone Technique isn't necessarily a requirement for knowing the Shuriken Shadow Clone Technique, or vise versa. That, however, isn't the logic this wiki's gone by in recent months and that's all I'm saying. I can see it the other way though, in that the shuriken shadow clones is a mere "application" of shadow clones. But you're right in that it isn't set in stone.--Mina ^{talk | contribs} 11:23, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Of course it's an application of shadow cloning. But so is the human version. What makes the human version the "basic version" and the shuriken version a derived version? Why not the other way around, if any? I say that they're both based on the shadow cloning principle, but equally derived versions, not superior and inferior and surely not based on another. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 11:27, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Tobirama most likely developed the Shadow Clone after analysing the basic clone. The principle is the same, except that cloning ninja tools is stated to be different to cloning yourself. At least, according to the article. :P

Fact is, the series has showcased that people can "analyse" the principles of a technique, then develop their own techniques based on the "idea". That doesn't mean they must be able to use the technique they've analysed, as it's been stated a lot of times that the Shadow Clone uses lots of chakra.

I can't imagine everyone being able to just make physical clones of themselves on a constant basis. --Sajuuk _[Mod] 11:34, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Exactly. Maybe we should reconsider which techniques serve as a basis to others and which doesn't... • Seelentau 愛 ^議 11:56, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

In my opinion, people should only be added as a user if they're actually seen "using" the technique. Derivatives don't count as "using" the technique, as it's something else entirely. Forum thread might be needed for this... (and I'm glad we're agreeing on something :D) --Sajuuk _[Mod] 11:58, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Hmm, well for example. Tailed Beast Ball is considered the parent technique for Rasengan, but we obviously ain't listing Jiraiya, etc...as users lol. Shadow of the Dancing Leaf & Lion Combo are listed as parent techs for Naruto's Naruto Uzumaki Combo, but we're not gonna list Naruto for the latter two. I think we should also concretely define what a parent technique is.--Mina ^{talk | contribs} 12:03, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

But, Mina-san, no they aren't... And I do see what Seele is saying, and I have to say, I sorta agree. It should be moved to variations/related jutsu. It was listed as a derived technique right from the start, though.--Omojuze (talk) 12:05, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Wow, what a dumbass I was. They're actually "related techs" lol. My bad. Point still stands on my latest example though. Again, we just need to redefine what a parent technique is, and that'll clear everything up.--Mina ^{talk | contribs} 12:08, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

It's another fanon term that causes confusion. x) There obviously are parent techniques in the manga, but once again, we're lacking a definition. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 12:10, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Personally, we should just go back to how it used to be: we only list users of techniques if they're physically seen activating said technique. Being a user of a derivative/variant does not equate to the user using the parent. It would solve the problem easily. At least, from my perspective on the matter. --Sajuuk _[Mod] 12:13, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

That would make things a lot less complicated, yes.--Mina ^{talk | contribs} 12:23, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Seeing as it hasn't been pointed out yet, Orochimaru actually did use the Shadow Clone Technique against Anko in the Forest of Death, at least in the manga. In the anime, he used this instead. It was said to be a Body Replacement, but we currently consider it to be an Earth Release variant of Shadow Clone for whatever reason. All of the other manga users listed are also correct except for Jiraiya, who I'm fairly certain never used this.--BeyondRed (talk) 16:24, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

That's not a Shadow Clone. That is nothing more than an Earth-Style substitution. Hiruzen used EXACTLY the same technique earlier in said fight, which was just a basic substitution.

And you should probably read the rest of the discussion, since some of the listed users clearly didn't actually use the technique, but some sort of variant. --Sajuuk _[Mod] 16:28, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

And Jiraiya absolutely has used this technique...again, Naruto Shippuden Episode #153.--Mina ^{talk | contribs} 16:31, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Jiraiya is listed as a manga user currently. If he did indeed use it in the anime, he should have the anime only tag. As for the Earth technique from Part 1, I agree that it was just a substitution, not an Earth Release Shadow Clone as we currently classify it (though that apparently did appear in Shippuden). Apologies if I was unclear about that. I was simply saying that all of the manga users besides Jiraiya are correct and can be verified (I can't speak for the anime-only users). In Deidara's case, his clone was in fact a regular Shadow Clone up until the point where it consumed the clay, thus becoming a Suicide Bombing Clone. --BeyondRed (talk) 17:09, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

If he used it in the manga, a source for where it was seen, so that someone can check it, would be useful.

The problem is some of the listed users didn't use a Shadow Clone. And in Deidara's example, how can you create a Shadow Clone without hand signs? It was him, up to a point where he substituted or used Body Flicker. o.O

I know for a fact Hayate did NOT use this in the anime, no idea about manga, but his "Crescent Moon Dance" was an illusion, not shadow clones. Unsure about Itachi, as the anime tends to take liberties with dubbing and incorrectly refers to the basic "Clone Technique" as though it's the Shadow Clone (see end of Naruto v Neji in Chunin Exams for an example).

According to manga facts, the Shadow Clone is a kinjutsu. A lot of the uses of "clones" would have resulted in the caster's death if they were real clones. Even Seelentau doesn't agree with the number of users (I did see Minato make a clone, but it's anime only, not seen in manga: if it's in manga, chapter ref would be useful). --Sajuuk _[Mod] 17:15, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Crescent Moon Dance isn't an illusion, it requires Shadow Clones. Itachi used the Shadow Clone against Kakashi after Orochimaru's Invasion (see Clone Great Explosion). Minato created a Shadow Clone right before Obito became the Ten-Tails' jinchūriki. Shadow Clone isn't a kinjutsu; Multi Shadow Clone is.--JOA²⁰17:24, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Added a ref to the earth clone article. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 17:52, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

So to summarise: Orochimaru used it in the manga when he met Anko in the Forest of Death, Deidara's Suicide Bombing Clone is a shadow clone who ate Explosive Clay, Hayate's Dance of the Crescent Moon uses shadow clones, and Jiraiya (in the manga as well, if I recall correctly) used it when he was training Ame Orphans in a flashback, the shadow clone was defeated when Nagato and Konan used the Wind Release: Gale Palm and Paper Shuriken together. Anyone else to verify? Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 18:18, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Ah, forgot about the Ame Orphans' training. Has Orochimaru ever used the Shadow Clone Technique in the anime, or should he be a manga only user? As has already been mentioned, the Earth Release: Shadow Clone is a real technique in Shippuden, but the technique used by Orochimaru and Hiruzen in the Part 1 anime was specifically called Body Replacement instead of Shadow Clone.--BeyondRed (talk) 19:02, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

The problem is that Shippuden makes it seem like the Substitution from Part 1 is the same technique. I'm pretty sure the episode in question was a flashback and Shippuden has been known to make errors when making flashback episodes for Part 1 content, usually changing it beyond what happened originally, causing confusion. Part 1 states the technique is a substitution, but Part 2 decides to unilaterally change canonically stated content for no reason. So I wouldn't put much stock into what Shippuden says when it makes fillers based on Part 1 canonical content. :) --Sajuuk _[Mod] 19:06, June 25, 2015 (UTC)

Naruto's First Use?

In The Last: Naruto the Movie, we see that Naruto attempted this technique as a young child, but didn't he not even know of the technique until he stole the seal of forbidden jutsu in the first episode? Diamonddeath (talk) 09:36, July 28, 2015 (UTC)

Actually the dialogue in chapter 1/episode 1 kinda suggests he had known it before.--Elve _[Mod] ^{Talk Page|Contribs} 11:41, July 28, 2015 (UTC)

Anko

In which game Anko uses this technique? I looked in various and not found she using this... Can someone tell me when she uses it? --Master Hyūga (talk) 15:05, January 18, 2016 (UTC)

In Naruto: Ultimate Ninja 3, Anko used this in story mode only as a joke with Naruto. → Rafael U. H. S. U. 18:00, January 18, 2016 (UTC)

For all who blind (Madara can't distinct Shadow Clones)

In chapter 601 in page 1 frame 1 it is perfectly clear that Madara stands in front of both real and clone Naruto then in page 2 frame 4 he suggests that Naruto who stands closer to him is clone(rightly) then he asks Obito where real one while clearly seeing him(real one) page frame 6. Page 9 frame 5 also shows us that real Naruto stand in two distances further of what Kakshi, Guy and Clone Naruto are, real one stands in 12 o'cloak of Madara while clone in hour there is no way someone stands in front of real Naruto covering him from Madara's gaze. Most ridiculous in this one wrote that in page while wanking him made him as blind as molerat while Madara even without Sharingan was able see from Hakage monument position(montain) to far reach of forest. Rage gtx (talk) 01:57, May 1, 2016 (UTC)

So i guess no one has anything against, this correction? If so, after 24h i will reqest SYSOP to take action. Rage gtx (talk) 00:46, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

Do read chapter again... Madara clearly stated that Naruto with Kakashi and Gai was Shadow Clone. Naruto with B and Gyūki was real. This was shown clearly when Madara went Naruto with B and Gyūki, in other words behind Kakashi and Guy. --JouXIII (talk) 01:25, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

I did read it clearly, but i can say same to you, please do read chapter. It is really that hard to wrap around your head that Madara saw both Naruto? Yet he asked "where is the real one?" Because he frickin did, in 3 page real Naruto asks Madara what he did to Gokake by your logic he must be unable to talk with Madara since he is behind Kakashi wich not true and shown In 5th frame of same page where Madara asks about Kagebunshin, and page 9 last frame. To Madara clone Naruto is in hour and real one 12 o'clock there is no way he can't see him unless he has vision worst than that of normal human. Madara that can distinct Shadow Clones is pure fanon. Rage gtx (talk) 01:38, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

Obviously you haven't read the chapter well, since real Naruto was practically in the shadow of Gyūki and Madara only reacted to real Naruto after he asked what happened to the Kage. Also, if Madara can see difference between real one and Wood Clone, which is practically better than Shadow Clone, he has no trouble with Shadow Clones. --JouXIII (talk) 02:13, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

Obviously you run out of arguments(true to say you did not had them at all). Madara had frickin Rinnegan wich evolved from Sharingan and he had better than average eyesight even without Sharingan, also real Naruto never was covered with shadow of Gyuki not in single frame, but even if it was true Madara's eyes can see chakra that shadow does not cover. And Wood Clone argument is total bull, WC will be made of Wood chakra wich Water plus Earth so it has atleast this flaw(chakra signature) where SC is made of pure user's chakra. Ability to differentiate WC never ever will proof of him being able to differentiate SC, since that's not a same techniques. Rage gtx (talk) 02:27, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

The fact is that Madara didn't focus on real Naruto until real Naruto himself asked about the Kage. Is's simple as that. It's not my fault that you have problem to comprehend it. --JouXIII (talk) 09:47, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

I also think that JouXIII is right, @Rage gtx. When Madara arrived on Obito's battlefield, the first thing he saw was this Naruto clone. Madara immediately noted that it seemed to be an another shadow clone. If Madara had taken into account the possibility of this Naruto being the real one, he wouldn't have said it beforehand. And when the real Naruto also began to scream at Madara, the latter, again immediately, recognised him as a real one. And again, Madara didn't know how many clones of Naruto could've been around (he'd already seen that Naruto can create a lot of them), yet identified the second screaming Naruto as a real one. It stands to reason that he was able distinguish between the shadow clones and the original. Since we know that Madara's mastery over the Sharingan was already exceptional (he wasn't the only Uchiha with the Sharingan, but was the only one from them who could recognise Hashi's wood clones), a pure logic allows us to conclude, that it allowed him to recognise the shadow clones as well. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 11:47, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

@JouXIII, well it's not my problem you do not have a facts either, "Where is real one" while seeing real one is argument enough. And expirienced shinobi did not see something is utterly ridiculous - even if it is your "argument".

@Ravenlot 27, and all your argument fails with simple fact Madara saw the real one yet asked Obito where he is wich says he did not know was real one real or clone. And stop using Wood Clones as argument because it is not an argument. You both do not have any argument beside: "well it's Madara he is exeptional" - and that's pure whiful thinking.

To put simply if you cannot debunk this chain: Madara saw clone and real Naruto|It is fact that he saw them => Madara guessed clone(rightly), but didn't regonize real one(since asked where he is)|It's fact he asked Obito about real one => Madara can't distinct Shadow Clones|This is logical conclusion based on facts.

Since you guys have no arguments and things like "he was not looking", "Naruto was hiding" won't do at all(and you are not Kishi make thins kind of claims), cause manga shows he was looking them and Naruto was not hiding. Rage gtx (talk) 21:37, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

Except Madara clearly didn't saw the real Naruto, since he had ask where the real one was and found him AFTER the real Naruto asked about the Kage. That is undeniable fact. Had Madara really saw both real and clone Naruto at the same time, he would have said so, something like, "Naruto in front of me is Shadow Clone and Naruto in the back is real...", not "That one is Shadow Clone, too. Where's real one?" From there we can only logically conclude that Madara DIDN'T saw the real Naruto. Simple as that. --JouXIII (talk) 22:07, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

THAT'S ISSUE HERE Madara "EYEMAN" Madara cannot have condition where he cannot see person in front of him, while looking in his side!. You used all kinds intellectual dishonesty(like so: He was in shadow, He was not looking, he was behind Kakashi) to wank him being abke to differentiate SC while making him outright blind or dumb. So stop with your wishful thingking. Rage gtx (talk) 22:14, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

What wishful thinking? I'm just stating facts, something you obviously have difficult to comprehend.--JouXIII (talk) 22:50, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

Thing is you adding plot statements that were not involed(they were not stated, sounded or implied) - that is by defenition a "wishful thinking". In first page of chapter 601 when Madara just arrived he was looking on them all. You say that despite fact author showed Madara looking at them he did not see real one, despite fact Madara is well known for his eyesight, he did not see real one, despite fact Rinnegan can see chakra he did not see real Naruto, despite fact nothing was hiding real Naruto not teammates backs nor shadow, Madara still did not see real Naruto and all of it just make Madara able to differentiate SC. You need to make so much excuses to his "Where is real one" - and that's why it is wishful thinking and fanon(something that has no place in this wiki). -_- Rage gtx (talk) 23:15, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

Except we DON'T see all the characters from first frame of chapter 601; that would be fanon from your end. The first time chapter shows real Naruto is after Madara regonises Naruto in front of him as Shadow Clone. No sooner than that. That is, again, fact straight from the chapter. So if you want to blame someone, blame Kishimoto and his assistants since they're the ones who made the chapter like it is. --JouXIII (talk) 23:57, May 2, 2016 (UTC)

Wait what? Do not put word in my mouth i never said we see all characters in first frame of first page - i said read by syllables if it's helps you: "MADARA SAW THEM ALL", fifth frame of ninth page proves that. Madara recognized clone that's good for him but he did not recognize real one(hence: "where where the real one"). If he cannot say that where is real one while seeing him that's not distinction at all. Moreso your: "The first time chapter shows real Naruto is after Madara regonises Naruto in front of him as Shadow Clone. No sooner than that." now you messing reader's point of view and character's point of view, just because Naruto is not shown in frame to us it does not mean he is not present, it also does not mean Madara did not saw him, just because you did not saw him, that's ridiculous conslusion. So only one i had to blame is you for your inability to comprehend straight facts Rage gtx (talk) 00:35, May 3, 2016 (UTC)

Well, it was you who claimed Madara saw them all when in fact chapter tells otherwise. So really, it seems it is you have trouble to comprehend straight facts. --JouXIII (talk) 07:57, May 3, 2016 (UTC)

@JouXIII, say something new, you repeatedly saing similar lines again and again won't make what you want to be, come true. And if don't have nothing new to say stop repling, do not turn section into trash talk. Rage gtx (talk) 11:35, May 3, 2016 (UTC)

And again, @Rage gtx, I have simply stated facts straight from the chapter, unlike you, who doesn't like the way Kishimoto writes and draws his manga and has problems to comprehend said facts. --JouXIII (talk) 11:48, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

No, you did not. Madara saw real Naruto when he asked where he is, you used any kinds of lies like: Shadows, People covering, Awerted gaze all of them i debunked with manga frames. You did not bother bring any proof for edit of Killer Madara, all you did is insulted my ability to comprehend while saing "lol nope it's not like that you got it wrong". So i ask you one last time prove the sentence or stop reverts. Rage gtx (talk) 12:31, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

Except, again, all your "debunking" falls apart with simple line from Madara, "Where's real one?" and him noticing the loaction of real Naruto only after the real Naruto himself shouts it out. That's no lie, that is fact straight from the chapter, something that 5-year-old would have no problem to understand. So far, only you have claimed that Madara saw both clone and real Naruto when in fact the chapter itself tells otherwise. So if anyone tries to add fanon here, it's you. --JouXIII (talk) 12:56, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

And you are person that questioned my comprehending ability. -_- It does not fall apart from that. Like i said abobe First page of chapter 601 proves there is no way for Madara could not notice Naruto before question. It's simply impossible. But anyway, just name page and frame number where Madara shows sings of noticing real Naruto if you so sure about(i just wanna to see it cuz you so adamant). And despite that line itself is illogical it says "Madara who is very good with Sharingan can differ real from clone" while Madara saw Naruto with Rinnegan. -_- Admit it just like guy who added this damn line Killer Madara(name speaks for itself) you don't care if Madara can or can not distinct SC you just want him able to. Rage gtx (talk) 13:15, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

Ok, I think we need to ask someone aside from you two, guys, cause with this way you aren't going to get anywhere. I've already written my opinion, so someone else should come and judge you two. Will be even better if several people look on it. But now it seems like nobody cares, except for you. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 13:16, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

Thing is i cited manga per frame directly above(if you bother to read it) this is not even matter of opinion this is matter of fact - Madara saw both Naruto at same time other variant is impossible given feats of Madara character, he did not show any sings noticing real one later either - there was none. Only possible aswer is Madara can't distinct Shadow Clones and just guessed rightly (but so did Gaara when Naruto came to aid with Mū - should we add that Gaara can distinct clones also?) that one he seeing is clone(considering his previous conversation with Kabuto there is nothing strange about it either). Rage gtx (talk) 13:28, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

I didn't ask you to prove our opinion to me again. As far as I see, there's a bit too much of it on this talkpage. I'm going to stay on my previous position anyway. I only asked you two to find someone else to eventually settle this debate. Otherwise, stop it already, you must've noticed that it's just meaningless to continue. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 13:33, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

And i am too not talking about opinions here, i did bring a facts - facts(with cites) that without counterfacts(there are none atm) should be considered as truth(like it or not). Thing is, right now is side who insist that Madara can distinct Shadow Clones has zero facts on their side, with this until facts wich can prove that he can distinct clones provided line should be removed, that much anyone should understand. And only thing user above doing to prove his "opinion" is insulting me(Ad Hominem) and "undo abuse" forcing Sysops block page on earlier edit. Rage gtx (talk) 15:22, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

What is this even about? Madara says This one's a Kage Bunshin as well... Where's the real one? Obito. If he looks at a clone and immediately knows that it's a clone, he can obviously differentiate between them and the real one. If he saw the real Naruto or not doesn't really matter. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 19:49, May 10, 2016 (UTC)

It matters very much, if Madara can distinct clone from real one, his Where's the real one? Obito is pointless and goes against that he can disticnt them. To put it sipmle if you see clone and real one - naming clone and then asking where is real one with him standing in front of you, proves you cannot differentiate between clones and the real one. Rage gtx (talk) 04:33, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

And how was Madara supposed to know that the real Naruto couldn't be an another clone as well? I don't think he was aware how many clones could/couldn't be around. So his line "Oh, that's the real one" doesn't make sense too, if he still couldn't know that it's surely the real one. Especially after he witnessed that Naruto can actually create a lot of shadow clones. If he saw both of Naruto when arriving on the battlefield, it also doesn't make sense, I don't think that if one of these Naruto begins to shout at you, you'll immediately recognise him as a clone/the original, given that both of Naruto were shouting at him one after another. Ravenlot 27 (talk) 07:45, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

That's issue here if Madara don't know if real is real that means he can't differentiate Shadow Clones(cause distinction works in both ways) them because for him all of them(including real one) clones, just like for any other person all of them(including clones) real ones - Madara being able to differentiate them(when he can't tell apart real one from clone) is fallacy - wich means Madara guessed. Reason wht he asked Obito was because he needed him point out who is real one, there been cases of people guessing Shadow Clones(Like with Gaara) none of them lead to conclusion that they can differentiate Shadow Clones. Madara realizing after sometime(after Naruto asked about Gokage) who is real one also proves it was guess, since if it was done with eyes(differentiation of Shadow Clones) he would know it immediately - there is no other way, but his question refutes that. Rage gtx (talk) 08:10, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

Madara appears, looks at the clone and immediately knows that it's a clone. How does that not mean that he knows when a clone is a clone? Him asking Obito where the real Naruto is only proves that he only saw the clone (because he didn't use plural, eg these are clones). So even without knowing where the real Naruto was, he immediately knew that the one standing before him was a clone. If he actually saw the other (real) Naruto and thought he was a clone as well, he would've used plural, saying these are clones.But he didn't. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 08:14, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

And that's impossible given Madara has Rinnegan(wich can see charka) and scenery(see page 9 for that) they stand in. Real Naruto stands in line of sight of Madara from moment Madara got there. While looking on clone Madara cannot overlook real one it is not possible given their positions and his feats. Since he cannot overlook him there no point him asking where is real if can differentiate them. Fact that speaks about only one(clone) also can mean that he only guessed about him. So all that happended is: Madara comes see both Narutos guessed one of them clone, asks where is real one, after real one speaks to him he realizes that he is real. If Madara could differentiate them he would have known who is real one even before asking Obito. Rage gtx (talk) 08:33, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

So by your logic, Madara sees both Narutos, knows the one before him is a clone (as he stated) and asks where the real Naruto is, despite seeing him? Why would he ask where the real Naruto is, when a) he knows when a clone is a clone and b) sees the real Naruto, knowing that he's the real Naruto (because he knows it's not a clone)? How does that make sense? • Seelentau 愛 ^議 09:01, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

Nope by my logic he guesses the clone he sees is a clone, while he not sure where is there real since they both may be clones and he cannot differentiate them he asks Obtio to pinpoint real one for him(who also may be out of scenery). So he sees real Naruto but can't tell if he is clone or real(he don't know) he asks Obito. Madara is not sure that if real Naruto is real, thus he cannot differentiate them. And in desert(with Gaara and Onoki) Madara did not knew that Naruto is clone before Kabuto told him so(chapter 561). Rage gtx (talk) 09:19, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

Then your logic is faulty. As I said, Madara literally says This one's a Kage Bunshin as well... Where's the real one? Obito. This means 1) he knows that the Naruto before him is a clone and b) he doesn't see the other Naruto. Because if he saw the real Naruto, his ability to see when a clone is a clone would tell him that it's the real Naruto. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 09:26, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

Yet b) is impossible if we talking about Madara. Wich makes his This one's a Kage Bunshin as well... a pretentious guess(guess in the affirmative), wich is in Madara's character and totaly possible, unlike not seeinng person in front of him. Rage gtx (talk) 09:38, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

Of course b) is possible, simply because a) is true. His words are in no way close to guessing, at least in Japanese. From what I gathered, your main argument is that Madara saw both Narutos because they were in his line of sight. But was Madara's line of sight shown once? Not to my knowledge, no. This argument is also questionable because it's a manga we're talking about. I seriously doubt Kishimoto thought of the line of sight in that scene, especially considering Madara's question about the real Naruto. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 12:14, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

You could always clear this up by going and looking at the episode(s) in the anime for this chapter and see what happens there. :P --Sajuuk 12:16, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

It's shown on page 9 last frame(chapter 601) i already noted it above, clone Naruto with Kakashi and Guy stands in hour, real Naruto in twelve o'clock(right in front of him). Madara must be blind(despite the fact he's Uchiha) or mentally handicapped to not see him there. Rage gtx (talk) 12:39, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

And yet he asked where the real Naruto is after recognising the one before him as a clone. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 13:19, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

For reason he did not know if real one is real - cause he can't differentiate real from shadow clones. :D Rage gtx (talk) 13:24, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

The most acceptable solution would be to put it in the trivia. Something like "despite Madara being able to understand that the Naruto in front of him was a clone, he apparently couldn't recognise the original Naruto as such".--JOA²⁰13:41, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

Ok since we going in circles and you guys all on "He can" side, right now line is: With the exception of Madara Uchiha, whose mastery with the Sharingan allowed him to tell a clone from the original,[Ref to Wood clones][Ref to page] shadow clones can't be distinguished from the original with the Sharingan, Byakugan, Rinnegan or Rinne Sharingan. - Madara saw clone Naruto with Rinnegan, i am ok with this kind line even tho i don't agree with it: Shadow clones can't be distinguished from the original with the Sharingan, Byakugan, Rinnegan or Rinne Sharingan, but Madara Uchiha was able to identify clone with his Rinnegan[Ref to page] at least this is correct way to describe it. Is this will do? Rage gtx (talk) 13:50, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

Na. He can differentiate between them because he recognised a clone as a clone. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 13:52, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

But if he can't tell who is real one then them all(clones and real one) clones to him, mirroring to rest shinobi for who them all(clones and real one) are real. Differentiation is doing thing(telling apart) in both ways not only one. More so my line does not say he cannot do it, it describes, what Madara did as it was without made up epithets like "mastery with the Sharingan" when he used Rinnegan and fake references to his speach about Wood Clones. Rage gtx (talk) 14:00, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

But he can tell who's the real one. Again, his words make pretty obvious that a) he knows when a clone is a clone and b) he can't see the real Naruto. You can speak about line of sight all you want, but Madara's words simply weigh more than your speculation. We don't know how he did it, maybe he's just not that stupid or maybe it was his dojutsu, but he definitely can differentiate between clones and real people. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 14:03, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

That's called whishful thinking - when you ignore uncomfortable facts to make your construct consistent. Madara did not say he can tell apart shadow clones, nor did imply on that nor anyone did. More powerful sets of eyes did not tells Shadow Clones apart nor did Sharingan Rinnegan combination of Sasuke. But yeah if Madara names one clone as clone(without Naming real one) then it's it - set in stone that he can, cause we like adding fanon. Then list Kabuto also he identified Naruto as clone in chapter 561, why only Madara? Rage gtx (talk) 14:16, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

Oh man... he literally said This one's a Kage Bunshin without getting any kind of information from Obito or anyone else. He didn't imply it, he outright stated it. How would he know that it's a Kage Bunshin if he wasn't able to differentiate between a real human and a clone? You think he was able to see the real Naruto as well, despite Madara himself asking where the real Naruto was. And your opinion does not outweigh the manga. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 14:25, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

Not true Madara said This one's a Kage Bunshin as well... he got information from Kabuto when Kabuto(so if Madara stated then so should he) said Naruto is Shadow clone so Madara(and when Madara first saw Naruto clone he did not knew that he is clone before Kabuto said it to him) already knew that Naruto uses Shadow Clones so when seeing two same persons naming one of them clone is 1/2 guess. And nowhere anything from what i said goes against manga. Rage gtx (talk) 14:34, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

The "as well" doesn't matter, hence I left it out. Madara immediately knew that the clone was a clone, without knowing where the real Naruto was. He said so himself. I mean, you can keep on talking against the manga, but you can't change it. So yeah, this discussion is over for me. • Seelentau 愛 ^議 14:37, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

OK, it's not like user can do anything agaist adamant opinion of Sysop just like you did with Rinnesharingan for Madara(funny how all lore questionable edits are around this particular character) adding him as user(when databook did not list him) and not adding Obito when Madara just partial TB transformation with TB eye that then got off before he died. But yeah over is over even if it's wrong. Rage gtx (talk) 14:45, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

Why does it always have to boil down to my sysop status? The manga clearly states the facts, you're the one arguing with made up line of sights and who ignores Madara's words. It's not your opinion vs a sysop's opinion, it's your opinion vs the manga. And what is wrong with Madara's Rinne Sharingan? It's the same eye as Kaguya's, so of course he's a user? I can't even remember any discussion about if he was a user or not. Still, if you've any problems, you can always come to me ans ask me about it. You just have to consider that my answer could not be what you want it to be (like here). • Seelentau 愛 ^議 17:09, May 11, 2016 (UTC)

1 handed

I was reading http://forums.sjgames.com/showpost.php?p=2126348&postcount=5:

inbetween Shippuden and Boruto I remember Naruto learning how to perform Shadow Clone Jutsu one-handed... It seemed like a rare ability, and it may be something that has to be sought out specifically.

This appears to be mentioned under Trivia:

prior to the events of Kakashi Hiden, while waiting for his new arm, Naruto learned to make the seals necessary by making a cross with his left hand's index and middle finger.

Does anyone happen to know the specific number of the chapter and episode which focus on this? Does anyone know anyone besides Naruto who has exhibited an ability to do this using 1 hand instead of 2?

I'm also wondering if the time it takes to makes the seals varies depending on the number of clones someone is making... and is it possible for clones to do the hand seals to make their own clones or only the original? talk2ty 16:36, June 12, 2018 (UTC)