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Creation

I may have missed it but when did they say Hagoromo created it? Also it might be a stretch but is it a possibility that if Hagoromo possessed both seals would Hamura also have both.--Youngjusticeplayer007 (talk) 02:31, July 31, 2014 (UTC)

Hamura

Why exactly was he removed Seel?--Elveonora (talk) 13:43, July 31, 2014 (UTC)

Speculation. We know that Hagoromo had both powers. Hamura having one extra part of it doesn't make any sense. • Seelentau 愛 17:12, July 31, 2014 (UTC)
But we were told both Hamura and Hagoromo did the sealing, not just the latter--Elveonora (talk) 17:41, July 31, 2014 (UTC)

It was stated that Hagoromo AND Hamura did the sealing. Not to mention, Kaguya mixed up Sasuke's Yin Seal for Hamura's chakra, and Naruto's Yang Seal for Hagoromo's. Its possible at some point, presumably directly before his death, Hamura transferred the power to Hagoromo. Additionally, Hagoromo never demonstrated the Yin Seal, and at the point he unlocked both powers in Naruto & Sasuke, he had neither a Yin or Yang seal in his palms, despite having a Yang Seal in his youth. Skarrj (talk) 02:17, August 1, 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, Hamura had one of them. Seel is wrong because there is no speculation on that matter, but there is a kink in saying he had Yin. You forget, Hagoromo has both seals, so why do you automatically assume Hamura has Yin and not Yang? He could have either. We don't know which, so we can't list him. Edit: Also, Skarj, the seal is called the "Six Paths Yin Power". Hagoromo had it. It is half of his power. There is no debating that. Hagoromo has them both, Hamura had one (or both. We don't know). ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 03:29, August 1, 2014 (UTC)

err, Hagoromo and Hamura sealed the TT in Hagoromo. But Hagoromo alone sealed the TT's body in the moon. • Seelentau 愛 09:31, August 1, 2014 (UTC)

We know nothing about Hamura's role in the sealing. All we know for now is that Hagoromo had both powers (otherwise he couldn't have transferred the Yin seal to Sasuke, right?). Zetsu stated that the Yin+Yang seal performed by Kaguya's sons had transformed the Ten-Tails in the core of the Chibaku Tensei. Aside from that, we know nothing.--Mangekyō Sharingan Izuna JOA20 09:46, August 1, 2014 (UTC)
But he didn't state that. He stated that the seal the brothers used to seal Kaguya was a strong seal and the only sealing Hamura was part of was the initial one, where Hagoromo became the Jinchuriki. • Seelentau 愛 10:36, August 1, 2014 (UTC)
Except that's not what the chapter said Seel. The sealing chapter 681 mentions details the one of turning her into moon and Black Zetsu says both of them did it--Elveonora (talk) 12:39, August 1, 2014 (UTC)
Right, he did. Both of them sealed her - as we were told earlier by Hagoromo - into Hagoromo. And only Hagoromo sealed the husk in the ball. The information by Black Zetsu does in no way contradict the one we were told by Hagoromo. • Seelentau 愛 13:43, August 1, 2014 (UTC)
Except BZ states in the chapter that Hamura had a role in THE Chibaku Tensei moon seal, not the jinchuuriki one--Elveonora (talk) 13:56, August 1, 2014 (UTC)
He does not state that. The panels in the middle of that page refer to the initial sealing and the panel at the bottom to the TT's sealing. • Seelentau 愛 18:47, August 1, 2014 (UTC)

"Mother had once been sealed by the hands of her own children. It seemed to have been an extremely strong seal. A jutsu changing the Juubi itself into the nucleus of Chibaku Tensei... by means of that, the Juubi became the moon" the panel even shows the sun and moon seals when he says that.--Elveonora (talk) 18:53, August 1, 2014 (UTC)

Elve is right, Seel. It doesn't leave room for interpretation. Hamura helped Hagoromo seal the Ten-Tails in the moon. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 18:59, August 1, 2014 (UTC)
Awaiting your response Seel. Will you oppose Hamura being re-added back?--Elveonora (talk) 20:12, August 1, 2014 (UTC)
Yesh. I say we wait because why the fudge would Hagoromo not even mention his brother's involvement in the second sealing? • Seelentau 愛 20:25, August 1, 2014 (UTC)
Black Zetsu did though. Unless you insist your translation is superior to the guy you personally referenced to and he is mistaken.--Elveonora (talk) 20:29, August 1, 2014 (UTC)
That doesn't answer my question. Do you think Kishimoto decided on Hamura's involvement on a whim? I doubt so. I'm against adding Hamura as a user because what BZ told us doesn't contradict Hagoromo's words, only if you want them to do so. • Seelentau 愛 20:31, August 1, 2014 (UTC)
I'm also against Hamura's addition on the basis of us not knowing which power he had. Hagoromo had both, but Hamura's power was never revealed. Keep in mind, these seals are each half of Hagoromo's power. They are not split between them. We don't know which seal Hamura had, so how can you propose to add him to either? A simple Trivia note would be required. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 20:33, August 1, 2014 (UTC)

No one said it contradicts. Just because Hagoromo omitted his brother doesn't mean Black Zetsu lied or that BZ was referring to former sealing. You ignore the fact that BZ referenced Hamura's involvement in the MOON sealing, even showing the sun and moon marks.--Elveonora (talk) 20:34, August 1, 2014 (UTC)

@Foxie, if Hamura had both then, he wouldn't have needed Hamura's assistance.--Elveonora (talk) 20:40, August 1, 2014 (UTC)

Except we know Hagoromo had both because each is half of his power. Plus the moon seal appeared on the chakra effigy that appeared behind him when he transfered his power to Naruto and Sasuke. Hagoromo had both and you're stretching facts to say he didn't. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 20:49, August 1, 2014 (UTC)
I know he has had both, I follow the plot properly, don't worry. But just because he had them by the time he gave them to Naruto and Sasuke doesn't mean he did when he was young. Maybe Hamura transferred it to him the same way he did to Naruto and Sasuke. I know that's just assumption, but again, Black Zetsu literary attributed the moon sealing to both Hagoromo and Hamura--Elveonora (talk) 20:59, August 1, 2014 (UTC)

Maybe Hamura did transfer the Yin power to Hagoromo before the latter used COAT, but for now, it's speculation. I also don't think we should list Hamura just yet. WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task (Talk) (Contributions) 21:06, August 1, 2014 (UTC)

Alrighty then. No mention of Yin Moon Seal tattoo thingy--Elveonora (talk) 21:17, August 1, 2014 (UTC)

Hagoromo had Yang seal while Hamura had Yin Seal. Hamura died and passed Yin to Hagoromo.--KiritoLevel96AlicizationSharingan Triple

Senjutsu

Is the seal Senjutsu based? It allowed Sasuke to directly damage, and eventually bisect Madara in his Jinchuriki form, which should've only been possible through taijutsu (which clearly wasn't the case) or Senjutsu, which is a huge possibility. And seeing as Sasuke used the seal to empower his techniques at the time would lead me to think it is Senjutsu. And its also part of a seal capable of sealing the Ten-Tails, which, again, would lead me to further believe it is Senjutsu. Skarrj (talk) 02:24, August 1, 2014 (UTC)

The belief that Madara can only be harmed by Senjutsu is misconstrued. Senjutsu is the only thing that can damage the Truth-Seeking Balls. Tobirama and Naruto are the ones that discovered this way back when Obito became the Ten-Tails' jinchūriki. Prior to this discovery, Naruto injured Obito with an ordinary Rasengan, and Sasuke did the same with Amaterasu. They were able to injure him together with their Scorch Release: Halo Hurricane Jet Black Arrow Style Zero as well. Its only when Gamakichi used Senjutsu to deflect Obito's TSB that Naruto (and mentally Tobirama) commented that only Senjutsu could negate the TSB. The reason taijutsu is mentioned is because both Ten-Tails jinchūriki possess the Rinnegan and its Preta Path, which Madara threatened to use on numerous occassions, prompting the others to restrict their moves to senjutsu (to counter the TSB) and taijutsu (to counter the Ten-Tails jinchūriki's ability to absorb chakra). Never was it ever said that ninjutsu couldn't harm the Ten-Tails jinchūriki. Only that it was impractical. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 03:26, August 1, 2014 (UTC)
Actually the belief is perfectly sound. Even after being hit with Scorch Release: Halo Hurricane Jet Black Arrow Style Zero without being able to block with his Truth-Seeking Balls, he emerges perfectly fine (chapter 642) and Tobirama affirms that the technique didn't do anything even though he hit directly. Also the "ordinary" Rasengan Naruto hits Obito with isn't actually a regular Rasengan -- Its a Senjutsu Rasengan (he does it, again, in chapter 642). He added Senjutsu to the Rasengan specifically to test it after Gamakichi's attack isn't negated and he wants to see if his Rasengan will be able to damage Obito. After Naruto uses the Senjutsu rasengan on Obito, Tobirama thinks "It feels like we got him.. Indeed. Even though Ninjutsu doesn't work.... It looks like *Senjutsu Attacks* do..!!", effectively confirming my point. Also, on chapter 642 Guy asks "Senpou? Do you mean Senjutsu?" to which Minato responds "Yes.. Only Senjutsu works on him.. Or physical damage from Taijutsu." And before you say its refering to his Truth-Seeking Balls, Taijutsu CLEARLY doesn't work on his Truth-Seeking Balls. My point being though, it is stated and proven several times that only Senjutsu harms a Jinchuriki of the Ten-Tails who has control over their form. Also, when did Madara threaten to use the Preta Path? (Hint: He never did) The Preta Path can absorb Senjutsu so that wouldn't even make sense. Also "Never was it ever said that ninjutsu couldn't harm the Ten-Tails jinchūriki" -- stop bullshitting? You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Skarrj (talk) 03:50, August 1, 2014 (UTC)
Nor do you, because you completely blew off the part where I mentioned the Preta Path, which is what taijutsu was used to counter. It can absorb senjutsu? Worked real well for Pain didn't it? Stop being willfully ignorant. A Rinnegan user can absorb all forms of ninjutsu, and a Ten-Tails jinchūriki can also negate all ninjutsu with their TSB. Taijutsu counters the ninjutsu absorption, demonstrated by Guy, and senjutsu counters the TSB demonstrated by Gamakichi. Now kindly stop spreading your drivel. Sasuke doesn't have Senjutsu. The end. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 04:00, August 1, 2014 (UTC)
To further my point, since you decided to be an ass in your response, Madara clearly defined which powers Naruto and Sasuke obtained. Naruto obtained the Six Paths' Senjutsu and Sasuke got the Rinnegan. Madara has both in one. That was stated flat out. There is no senjutsu in Sasuke whatsoever, which kinda throws a kink into the lie that only senjutsu and taijutsu can harm the Ten-Tails jinchūriki. ~ Ten Tailed Fox Rinnegan Sasuke 04:04, August 1, 2014 (UTC)
Madara uses Senjutsu as the Ten-Tails' Jinchuriki. Also Truth-Seeking Balls are Senjutsu-based as well. The only reason Pain's Preta Path's absorption of Naruto's Sage Mode sage chakra didn't go well was because Pain had no sort of immunity to the Natural Energy that Madara and Obito did. The Ten-Tails is composed of Natural Energy and consequently its Jinchuriki can use Sage Techniques/Senjutsu. For example, Madara uses Sage Art: Yin Release Lightning Dispatch while in the form. And Madara stated Sasuke had Rinnegan and that Naruto had Six Paths Sage Technique (the same technique the Ten Tails Jinchuriki recieve), he made no mention of their Yin and Yang marks which he clearly didn't have. He stated that Sasuke had Rinnegan and that Naruto had Six Paths Sage Technique, but that he had them also. All of my points still stand just as well as they did. Your logic so far has been flawed at best and you've failed to sufficiently counter any of my original arguments. Also, you didn't even argue any of my points where I specifically quoted the Manga, you just continued with your Preta Path argument and worked around what I said without confronting it. If anything, you're being the ass, not me. And if I am, I deserve to be, because at least I know what I'm talking about. Sorry. Skarrj (talk) 07:32, August 1, 2014 (UTC)

@Foxie, it's neither belief nor misconstrued, but a manga fact. Only Senjutsu chakra harms the Ten-Tails jinchuuriki and physical attacks. You keep on arguing about that despite it having been said by characters.

The Ten-Tails' jinchuuriki can't absorb Senjutsu, otherwise Madara would have used Preta Path to tank Naruto's Lava Rasenshuriken, same for Obito absorbing Naruto's Senjutsu attacks and Sasuke's Jugo powered Senjutsu attacks, so it has nothing to do with the Truth Seeking Balls specifically.--Elveonora (talk) 12:49, August 1, 2014 (UTC)

It might not involve senjutsu at all, but instead is able to harm Madara purely because the technique was infused with Yin Release, which is one of the components of his power Riptide240 (talk) 17:12, August 1, 2014 (UTC)

All we know is that Senjutsu, Physical Attacks, the Six Paths (Hagoromo's) chakra and Hamura's can damage a TT jinchuuriki. The Six Paths chakra was able to enhance the abilities Naruto and Sasuke already had; Naruto had mastered Senjutsu and Tailed Beast chakra, and therefore gained the power to use Truth-Seeking Balls and the power of the nine tailed beasts, respectively. Sasuke had already mastered his doujutsu, the Sharingan, and therefore gained the power of the Rinnegan. The only thing Hagoromo gave to Naruto and Sasuke were the seals, and his chakra enhanced the abilities Naruto and Sasuke already had. Don't forget, not only was Hagoromo's chakra able to damage the TT, so was Hamura's, and we don't know if Hamura had senjutsu. Due to that, I do not think the Six Paths chakra is senjutsu, though Hagoromo eventually mastered Senjutsu, he gave it to Naruto, not Sasuke. WindStar7125 WindStar7125 Task (Talk) (Contributions) 18:04, August 1, 2014 (UTC)

Sasuke does have senjutsu!-KiritoLevel96Alicization Sharingan Triple

Summoning

Should Sasuke being able to summon animal whilst in a different dimension be put in here, it's in chapter 680? From Kakashi's reaction it shouldn't be possible normally. Kotoamatsukami (talk) 12:11, August 1, 2014 (UTC)

You read wrong translation.--Elveonora (talk) 12:41, August 1, 2014 (UTC)

Chakra Receivers

Would anyone be against noting that Sasuke used his Yin Power hand to touch Madara's receivers, as shown in the featured image? Him being immune to their effects isn't explicitly confirmed to be a result of this power, but neither is his black Chidori and that is mentioned here.--BeyondRed (talk) 02:48, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Except we know its from the rinnegan. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 02:51, August 7, 2014 (UTC)
Do we? This goes back to the old, discussed-many-times issue about what exactly the black rods have to do with the Rinnegan (or will materialisation, Yin-Yang etc.) We know very little about how the black rods are actually made and what the requirements to use them are. But that doesn't belong on this talk page, I'm not saying we should say Yin Release is related to the rods, just that Sasuke used the Yin hand to grab them. The same way we currently say he used that hand to bisect Madara.--BeyondRed (talk) 03:09, August 7, 2014 (UTC)
The chakra stakes have nothing to do with the Rinnegan. Madara created them without having a Rinnegan. • Seelentau 愛 08:35, August 7, 2014 (UTC)

Hamura (again)

We know that he used at least one of these, if not both, but we don't know which. So we should remove him and state that we know he used one in the trivia section and his abilities section. MangekyoSasuke (talk) 15:54, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

We know which. Young Harogoro was shown with Yang seal only, so logically Hamura used the Yin one--Elveonora (talk) 16:37, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
I wonder how Hagoromo got the Yin one. Then again, he's naruto Jesus so.... Plus it goes away once you use it but idk Riptide240 (talk) 16:43, August 28, 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, in a previous flashback, we saw Hagoromo with the Yang mark on his right hand. And in this chapter we saw him touching something with his right hand to perform the seal, while Hamura was touching it with his left hand. It's obvious now.--MERCURIOUS (talk)
Oh I see, If Hagoromo used Yang, Hamura had to use Yin. Hamura might still have Yang, but no proof, so whatever... MangekyoSasuke (talk) 18:11, August 28, 2014 (UTC)

Waxing and Waning Moon

Would it be trivia-worthy that Hagoromo had waning moon as his SPYiP-mark and Sasuke had waxing moon?--JouXIII (talk) 17:04, August 2, 2015 (UTC)

That's the same staff. It has the moon symbol on one end and the sun symbol on the other (to represent Yin and Yang respectively).--Omojuze (talk) 18:23, August 2, 2015 (UTC)
Umm, I wasn't talking about shakujō. I was talking about marks that represent Six Paths Ying Power(SPYiP for short). In Hagoromo's left hand it was waning moon and in Sasuke's left hand it was waxing moon.--JouXIII (talk) 18:37, August 2, 2015 (UTC)
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