Talk: Tsukuyomi

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Limited Tsukuyomi 2

I've seen Limited Tsukuyomi performed... It isnt anything like the normal Tsukuyomi. Not at all. He didn't even cast it with his eyes. Also, it's speculation to assume that Obito is using Tsukuyomi. When Madara cast his version of Limited Tsukuyomi on obito, to give him an example of the technique, he used the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path with a regular Sharingan, a non-Mangekyou Sharingan. We also now know the Demonic Statue of the Outer Path is the body of the Ten-Tails.

I think we should create a new page for Infinite Tsukuyomi and Limited Tsukuyomi using what we actually know now. In both depiction and usage of both techniques, they used a regular 3 Tomoe and not the actual Tsukuyomi at that. J/s. Skarrj (talk) 06:09, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

He used his eyes, notice the tomoe reflection on the crystal ball, also we know he has a MS. For Madara, what he did back there also appears to have been Limited Tsukuyomi, I wanted to make a topic on this long ago, thanks for a reminder. Also you are missing a little thing, MS techniques were seen performed with a regular Sharingan (Obito spamming Kamui seemingly with 3 tomoe, Susanoo etc.), not to mention it has been stated that the eye is nothing but a tool, the actual power resides within the user. Special chakra within an Uchiha's brain affects the optic nerve and changes the eye, thus even with an eye replaced, the mangekyou power should still be there. EDIT: but yes, both limited and infinite tsukuyomi should have a separate article from tsukuyomi, a little speculation, but I think LS and IS are yin-yang release versions of Tsukuyomi just as Blaze Release is seemingly yin-yang release version of Amaterasu--Elveonora (talk) 14:56, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

I still don't think what Madara did to Obito counts as a limited Tsukuyomi. What he did to Obito can very reasonably be achieved with Genjutsu: Sharingan, not to mention Madara did not have MS at that point, so in no way that would be a Tsukuyomi. And regarding the chakra, if it was as simple as putting the special chakra to the eyes, they could simply use someone who awakened the MS transplant eyes over and over with other Uchiha so a significant number of them had MS. Heck, just have one of them flow their chakra through an another Uchiha. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:42, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

If they don't feel loss of a close loved one, their brains produce not such chakra, thus transplanting a MS eye into a non-MS Uchiha would grant him those powers only for as long as the eyes are in his sockets. Also back on topic, do you have something against creating one/two articles for this matrix/inception version of Tsukuyomi?--Elveonora (talk) 18:36, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Everyone thought it was pointless to create an Infinite Tsukuyomi article, and when the name for the Limited Tsukuyomi came along, everyone thought the same. I don't oppose the creation, I just find it unnecessary, if not a bit redundant, since we know that in Tsukuyomi, the user can control everything. Only thing that seems to change between regular, limited and infinite is range and potency. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 19:53, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Not just that, Tsukuyomi is nothing but illusion while limited/infinite actually trap people in fake world--Elveonora (talk) 21:26, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Do you really think that they were actually transported somewhere else? This is more like part 1 filler Kurama clan arc genjutsu than actual alternate reality. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 21:36, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

I thought you saw the movie, they were sucked into the crystal ball. What confirms the dimension being "real" in a sense is Naruto keeping AU Sakura father's hokage cloak for a brief moment and AU Sakura entering "the real world" in anime. That's what differentiate the two tsukuyomi, one is an illusion that's completely controlled by it's user, the latter is the same just thoughts actually becoming real, wouldn't be the first thing, Izanagi does something similar--Elveonora (talk) 21:41, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

All the show is the crystal ball glowing when they see the moon through it. Nothing indicates them being sucked into it. And when they break out of the genjutsu world, the ball is just shown breaking. When they come to it, they're simply staring, as expected of someone who's trapped in genjutsu. No indication of them being released from another dimension. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 22:06, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Read the above again please, also the Kunai he threw at him broke the crystal ball, not to mention Obito wanted to steal Kurama from him within the illusion--Elveonora (talk) 22:19, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

Of course they'd see Obito trying to steal Kurama within the illusion, Obito cast the illusion. Pretty much the whole scene is seen from the perspective of those inside the genjutsu. Relatively speaking, the audience is in the genjutsu. Besides, there's no sign of broken crystal once they come out of it. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 23:41, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

So you want to tell me Obito cast a genjutsu that made it possible for Naruto to escape from it? Yes, that's why he showed disappointment. And are you saying that the Obito within the genjutsu wasn't real? Then we interpret the movie quite differently--Elveonora (talk) 23:48, March 26, 2013 (UTC)

The Genjutsu used by Obito was a prototype, and Obito didn't have perfect control of it, so there was an escape for Naruto and Sakura, he didn't try to have them leave or purposly create a loop hole to get out, it was just because it was a prototype that it had such a weakness. And Obito was watching the entire genjutsu, he was in it but it was still a genjutsu. what does him being in it have to do with him not being real? Omni never said that Obito wasn't real, he just tried to steal the Kyubi using the genjutsu.... besides, Naruto and Sakura were also in the genjutsu and they were real, it probably used the same principles as Izanagi or creation of all things to create a genjutsu world that seemed extremely real and gives you your hearts desire while the jutsu is being cast.....--Deathmailrock (talk) 09:07, June 1, 2013 (UTC)

Madara limited Tsukuyomi

After re-reading chapter 606, it seems to me quite certain that what Madara did to Obito was that technique. He said that the same thing only has to be cast onto everyone using the moon--Elveonora (talk) 23:47, April 5, 2013 (UTC)

Couldn't be. Tsukuyomi is a MS technique. Madara's MS was in Nagato's eye socket as Rinnegan. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 02:46, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

And I'm well aware of that, but the dialogue suggests as such. He says that with Ten-Tails (then Gedo's) power he can create the world as he wants it and only has to use moon as the medium instead of his eyes to put everyone into it.--Elveonora (talk) 13:40, April 6, 2013 (UTC)

Tobi

I know we see him performing it only in the movie but if he mentions it in both anime and manga tie-ins, should'n he be listed as a user also for those media?--LeafShinobi (talk) 21:38, May 4, 2013 (UTC)

It's kinda complicated, road to ninja got that manga one shot (and manga is canon, right? lol) and also animation of it through the latest episode and road to sakura episode makes the movie seemingly anime-level canon, that brings question if Obito used the "Tsukuyomi" canonically or not.--Elveonora (talk) 10:11, May 5, 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't think a one shot would count as canon @-@ I say leave it as is with saying movie only. Also, anime adds a lot of things that weren't canon so I doubt that should even factor in lol 173.189.2.172 (talk) 11:55, May 5, 2013 (UTC)

separate article for limited/infinite tsukuyomi decision

The reasonings are as follows:

• If it were the same, then in order for Obito to use it in canon, which he of course plans to, it would have made him a user of Tsukuyomi, and as such the "movie only" label as is would be wrong. The likelihood of him having Kamui in both eyes but Tsukuyomi in one or each as well is there, but nothing suggests that.
• Besides similar name and moon thematic and being "illusions" their workings and effects differ quite enough. Also this one can be reflected onto a surface to project it everywhere.
• Tsukuyomi is an ordinary genjutsu (by definition) limited and infinite ones literary transport people into a new dimension
• "illusionary people" can cross the words as well, like AU Sakura did
• All in all, this technique and it's prototype version are likely to be related to yin-yang release rather than just yin release--Elveonora (talk) 20:30, August 16, 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Elve here on all but the last part, but only because that's speculation; not because I actually think he's wrong. I've always thought Mugen Tsukuyomi deserved its own article, just in the same manner that Wind Release: Rasengan and Wind Release: Rasenshuriken need their own. Sure, MT is a vastly more powerful version of the original, but it clearly has some noticeable differences from the original, and its been named. ~ Ten Tailed Fox 20:34, August 16, 2013 (UTC)

• Obito isn't the only one who is apart of the plan. Madara was suppose to be revived for the plan as well and there is nothing saying he couldn't just use Tsukiyomi (I know I'm dodging the question but it's the only thing I have right now)
• We've never seen anyone use a genjutsu by reflecting it off a surface so we don't know if one could or could not.

• It's not transporting people into a new dimension. They're using it to put people into an illusionary world. It's basically like having everyone hypnotized forever.
• Is AU Sakura suppose to be the one from Road to Ninja? If so, she already knew it was fake and I guess that allowed her to do so? I haven't seen the movie so this is just me guessing
• Is there anything pointing to it being yin-yang release right now? If not then we don't know until they use it.

While I don't oppose making a new article (I mean, we have tons of articles for elemental skills that are just upgrades) I wanted to point out some problems with what you said. Joshbl56 20:40, August 16, 2013 (UTC)

@TTF, thank you for support. For the last point, it stems from genjutsu having been stated to be yin release and just messing one's brain, while the only known genjutsu which is "real" (Izanagi) is yin-yang instead. @Josh, watch the movie first :)--Elveonora (talk) 20:54, August 16, 2013 (UTC)

I would like us to see MT in action before actually making an article for it. I fully expect that Obito or Madara will in fact succeed in casting it at some point, with Naruto leading everyone in managing to break it, in a very cliched and formulaic manner. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 17:54, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

Right, I'm not in a hurry, it can wait. Even tho I doubt they will succeed to cast it, that would mean game over for good. But, it surely will be elaborated upon soon--Elveonora (talk) 18:03, August 18, 2013 (UTC)

But we have already seen Limited Tsukuyomi in action, and it is very different from the normal Tsukuyomi. And we know that Infinite Tsukuyomi is Limited Tsukuyomi, but in a much greater scale, and with the user having complete control of the "new world". I don't get why Odama Rasengan can have its own article, while Limited & Infinite Tsukuyomi can't. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 19:02, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

We don't know enough about Infinite, but can't Limited have a page, since we know how it functions? At least that would separate the non-canon movie material from the canon technique page and make it so Obito isn't listed as a Tsukuyomi user.--BeyondRed (talk) 19:17, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

Heck, I don't think that even Madara & Sasuke should be listed as users, since they've never used it. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 22:57, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

Point of Clarification: Both of them are listed because as per the requirement of Susanoo, both Amatesaru and Tsukuyomi have to be unlocked. So even if we haven't seen them use it, they both have to have it to use Susanoo.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 23:26, September 1, 2013 (UTC)

Yeah I know... even though Sasuke said later that one has to unlock the ability of each eye, which for Sasuke is Amaterasu & Enton: Kagutsuchi... But let's not get into that again, and let's wait for a new databook to clear things up. Still, I don't understand why we have 2 seperate articles, for example, Rasengan & Odama Rasengan, while we have Tsukuyomi, Limited Tsukuyomi, and Infinite Tsukuyomi in the same article, while we have seen the first 2, and we know almost exactly what the 3rd one does. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 19:13, September 2, 2013 (UTC)

I believe we should remove Obito as a movie-only user of Tsukuyomi tho. There's no evidence for or against it and limited/infinite tsukuyomi having enough in common. And if they do, that would mean that Obito is a canonical user of Tsukuyomi as well, since pulling off Moon Eye Plan wouldn't be possible otherwise, unless he plants to use eyes of someone else. Not to mention we don't even know if limited/infinite tsukuyomi requires Mangekyou Sharingan or can be done with 3 tomoe for example.--Elveonora (talk) 11:03, September 2, 2013 (UTC)

Now it was revealed how the the infinite Tsukuyomi will be cast, I think we should re-discuss if create an article for it Adept-eX (talk) 13:01, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

Not to mention it would appear the user will be the tree itself--Elveonora (talk) 20:59, September 11, 2013 (UTC)

Mugen Tsukuyomi

According to what Madara said in the related chapter and this week's episode, his tabula rasa Genjutsu is in fact Mugen Tsukuyomi. I suggest that we create a jutsu article for it, too. Or was is already decided not to do that? Seelentau 愛^議 12:56, January 23, 2014 (UTC)

Told them the same thing, shrugs.--Elveonora (talk) 21:19, January 24, 2014 (UTC)

Guys... srsly guys... opinions pls. Seelentau 愛^議 09:14, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Some of it was touched on in the discussion below, but I do think it warrants Mugen Tsukuyomi having it's own article. —「SaiST」 10:31, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

"While connected to the degraded body of Shinju, using its power, grandpa Madara could temporarily make himself appear hot again" And yes, Mugen Tsukuyomi finally needs its own article, fixing a few misunderstandings:

• It ain't a Mangekyou Sharingan technique. Obito was meant to cast it, yet his only technique is Kamui (so we either consider Obito a canonical Tsukuyomi user or it isn't related to MS's Tsukuyomi besides the name at all) The user doesn't actually use his own eyes to cast the world-scale version, the Shinju copy does once it blooms and its eye is "Sharinnegan" so if we classify it as doujutsu, then both Sharingan and Rinnegan or we make an article/redirect for the Shinju's eye.
• So if you want to be technical, it's a Tailed Beast Skill.
• It's not an ordinary genjutsu, those trapped aren't under its control, but inside of it.
• It's actually possible to die within.

Should be all--Elveonora (talk) 11:09, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Are we going to have one for the Limited Tsukuyomi as well, or is it going to be a sub-section in the Infinite Tsukuyomi article? I rather it be a sub-section. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:27, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Same technique, so one article.--Elveonora (talk) 16:36, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

About the Tsukuyomi & Mugen Tsukuyomi

Why does it say that Obito will project his Mangekyou Sharingan to the moon to use it, while he only says he will project his eye, and we actually see Juubi's eye in the moon (and this was what was going to be projected, had the flower bloomed, and it was also technically his eye as well when he was the jinchuriki)?

And also, why is Sasuke stated to have a weaker Tsukuyomi when we don't have any proof that he ever used it? (Not saying why he is listed as a user) Patsoumas1995 (talk) 18:36, January 24, 2014 (UTC)

Tobi said he would project his eye (we know it has to be a Mangekyo because only a Mangekyo can use Tsukuyomi) from the moon. Because being the Ten-Tails' jinchuriki makes the flower eye his eye, it stands to reason that he can active his Sharingan instead of the Ten-Tails' Rinnesharigan and do the Infinite Tsukuyomi.

And Danzo has said that Sasuke's Tsukuyomi is weaker than Itachi's.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 18:47, January 24, 2014 (UTC)

But what we actually through Obito's & Madara's tales is the Juubi's eye projected in the moon, not a Mangekyou Sharingan. Even the crystal ball that casts the Limited Tsukuyomi uses the Juubi's eye, not any Mangekyou Sharingan.

As for Danzo's comment, I recall him saying that his genjutsu is inferior to Itachi's, not word about the Tsukuyomi. Do you have the line? Patsoumas1995 (talk) 02:05, January 25, 2014 (UTC)

Root of the problem lies with many thinking of Mugen Tsukuyomi as simply a "Tsukuyomi being cast upon the moon"—it isn't.

And you're correct about Danzō's comment. Too many take it as confirmation of Sasuke's possession of Tsukuyomi because they can't see the point of Danzō comparing Sasuke's Genjutsu to it otherwise. Hint: Genjutsu castin', Mangekyō Sharingan wielding siblings that share another power in Amaterasu, which was commented on just earlier in the battle. Nowhere is it stated in the raw text that Sasuke used Tsukuyomi.

But the primary reason most here generally presume that Sasuke wields Tsukuyomi is due to the fact that it is described as one of the catalyst techniques for Susanoō in the 3rd Databook. Problems with that are not only the fact that the entire description was based around Itachi's example of the technique, but also the contradictory evidence brought about by the armament of Sasuke's own Susanoō, and most importantly, the confirmed dōryoku he's used to conjure it. He claimed that Susanoō was the third power to come about upon awakening the powers of both Mangekyō Sharingan, of which Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi was recognized among them... Doesn't leave room for the unconfirmed Tsukuyomi, yet the claims of his possession of the technique persist.

Of course, this would also naturally extend criticism to the presumptions concerning Madara's possession of both Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. The whole situation works rather contrary to how this wiki generally handles speculative matters when scrutinized against evidence from the manga. —「SaiST」 13:05, January 26, 2014 (UTC)

Chapter 413 page 9, any more nonsense?--Elveonora (talk) 16:39, January 26, 2014 (UTC)

Were it such a simple matter of making this conclusion based on the monotone/inverted color scheme of the illusion, and it's side-effects, this wouldn't be such a long-running, and heavily disputed topic, Elveonora. The aforementioned colors do not mean it's Tsukuyomi, nor does the physical feedback Sasuke suffered immediately afterwards; as we've also witnessed him similarly clasping his face after successfully knocking out C with the Genjutsu he cast at the Kage Summit in Chapter 462—with his regular ol' Sharingan. As I've asked you before during a similar exchange we had at the Naruto Answers wiki: If a potent enough "lesser" Genjutsu can induce such a reaction, why wouldn't another being bolstered by the power of the strenuous Mangekyō Sharingan?

Instead of trying to dismiss the claim as "nonsense"—an attitude that has all but collectively stifled any proper discussion that's been held on the matter here in the past—perhaps your time could be better spent trying to solve the debacle of where Tsukuyomi fits within Sasuke's repertoire of three ocular powers, when three have already been identified to us.

Regressing back to Mugen Tsukuyomi: Seelentau's preceding topic should also be considered here. —「SaiST」 17:30, January 26, 2014 (UTC)

It's true that he was seen holding his eye once after using a Genjutsu: Sharingan. I wasn't basing my conclusion on the color scheme but him switching to Mangekyou Sharingan to cast the illusion on Killer B. Let's say it's 50/50 he did or didn't use Tsukuyomi there, but having done so just for the show is unlikely.

Why do you consider Blaze Release a separate Mangekyou power? For all we know it's just an extension of Amaterasu. Also Danzo's comment is important, regular genjutsu affects 5 senses, yet he noted Sasuke's can't alter perception of time (which is outside of basic 5 senses) unlike Itachi's, meaning it's strongly suggested it was Tsukuyomi, otherwise there wouldn't have been a need to draw such a comparison. And yes, Seelentau's topic above is sadly ignored. Also I'm with the OP on this one, there's no evidence that Infinite Tsukuyomi is a Mangekyou technique, quite the contrary. Why do people assume it has more to do with Tsukuyomi besides the name is beyond me--Elveonora (talk) 20:38, January 26, 2014 (UTC)

The Mangekyō Sharingan can still be used to cast more powerful types of Genjutsu of the "normal" variety(as "normal" as Genjutsu from a Mangekyō Sharingan can be, anyways), and isn't limited to casting the ultimate, specialized types of Genjtusu like Tsukuyomi, and Kotoamatsukami. So, you're absolutely correct, it wasn't just for show.

Kagutsuchi may be somewhat dependent upon Amaterasu(until Susanoo is awakened, anyways), being the Shape Transformation to the latter's Nature Transformation, but is recognized as another ocular power and designated to the opposing eye. Upon discovering the ability in Chapter 415, Sasuke wonders "is this the dōryoku of my Mangekyō Sharingan". The chapter in which Sasuke reveals his third ocular power, Susanoo, C earlier lays out the initial two abilities of Sasuke's Mangekyō Sharingan bare for the readers. Danzō later seals the deal by confirming that Sasuke's Genjutsu lacks the trait that had defined Tsukuyomi: it's ability to alter the recipient's sense of time. Without that, there's nothing to differentiate it's effects from any other powerful Sharingan Genjutsu. Just as Kotoamatsukami is intended to essentially brainwash those on the receiving end, Tsukuyomi is intended to instantaneously effect those who fall victim to it by dishing out a substantial amount of time's worth of mental/spiritual damage in a minuscule moment... And as I mentioned before, they're Genjutsu castin', Mangekyō Sharingan wielding siblings, which had their other, shared ocular power brought up immediately beforehand. There's plenty good reason for the comparison to be drawn, and there's nothing being inferred about Sasuke using Tsukuyomi in the raw text.

The perception of Mugen Tsukuyomi as being some kind of widespread "Super Tsukuyomi" is deeply ingrained in the minds of many readers. It's clear now, though, that it is named in that manner due to Tsukuyomi's literal meaning, and the relationship it has with it's method of delivery. —「SaiST」 23:25, January 26, 2014 (UTC)

It's impossible for Sasuke to have used Tsukuyomi on Killer Bee, since Tsukuyomi can't be broken unless the victim has a Sharingan & it's a blood relative with the user. Plus, isn't the fact that it alters the user's sense of time what makes Tsukuyomi special? It's like saying that someone used Amaterasu, but the flames weren't black & so powerful. As for Enton: Kagutsuki, Sasuke uses it with a different eye, not with the same eye he uses for Amaterasu. It's not an extension of Amaterasu. Patsoumas1995 (talk) 01:43, January 27, 2014 (UTC)

Wow, there's some stuff here that's plain false. We KNOW Sasuke has and has used Tsukuyomi. Hell, that was years ago, and I'm certain we've hammered this away on the wiki since then. Sasuke used Tsukuyomi against B. The monochromo color scheme is something particular to Tsukuyomi's art style when it's used. Further, Danzo's comparison makes it even more solid. Danzo didn't just haphazardly bring up Itachi's Tsukuyomi in comparison to Sasuke's ordinary genjutsu. For starters, that would make no sense in terms of how manga writers go about comparing powers between characters, much less in this manga. Secondly, Danzo specifically mentions that Sasuke's technique lacked what Itachi could do with Tsukuyomi, namely controlling the victim's perception of time in the illusion, something only done in Tsukuyomi. But the nail in the coffin is Susanoo. The Third Databook (and Itachi himself) state that Susanoo can only beused by one who has awoken both Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, and only then would Susanoo awaken. As for Infinite Tsukuyomi, clearly the name is at least partly in reference to how the technique is to be cast. But as I recall, the technique is supposed to lock everyone into an unending genjutsu, which one can clearly associate with a mastered Tsukuyomi's time-dilating effect. Skitts (talk) 01:57, January 27, 2014 (UTC)

I really don't understand why so many cannot see the point of Danzō's comparison, given Sasuke and Itachi's relationship, and similar dōryoku that were being mentioned in the same vein in that, and the preceding chapter. Tsukuyomi's not being brought up "haphazardly", it stands at the height of Sharingan Genjutsu, which Sasuke just used through his own Mangekyō Sharingan. There's no point lacking in that comparison beyond that of sizing up two Tsukuyomi. That's not the sole interpretation there, nor is it any more likely; especially given the sum of evidence we have against Sasuke's use of Tsukuyomi.

The 3rd Databook's description of what is required, and results from Susanoō's acquisition, was based upon Itachi's lone example of the technique. Itachi himself only relays his personal experience upon first revealing Susanoo to us, claiming that this was the last power that awakened in his eyes, after Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. Sasuke's similar declaration in Chapter 464 describes it in a much more general, and simple matter: awakening the powers of both Mangekyō Sharingan. Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are described as representing something of a Ying & Yang relationship in Susanoō's conjuration. Could a similar relationship not be present in Sasuke's Nature, and Shape Transformation of Blaze Release?

Furthermore, you'd have to ascertain what exactly makes Tsukuyomi distinct, in terms of it's effects, without it's ability to alter the recipient's sense of time—beyond it's inconsistent, inverted/monochrome aesthetic. Before that particular Chapter, there was no question that this ability was what distinguished Tsukuyomi among the other types of powerful Sharingan Genjutsu. Being cast from the Mangekyō Sharingan? We've seen it used to cast more powerful, but normal Genjutsu. Instant, impossible-to-dispel effects? That's what it's "time-dilating" effect has been attributed to.

And finally, you have to address the huge, neon-colored elephant in the room known as Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi. As I mentioned earlier in this discussion, it has been recognized as one of Sasuke's dōryoku, by himself and C, designated to the eye opposing Amaterasu's, and used QUITE prominently since. Sasuke himself claims to have only three ocular powers, and it has been two hundred and sixty chapters since Sasuke awoke his Mangekyō Sharingan with no direct claims of him possessing an ability as prominent as Tsukuyomi; you can't just blame that on him sucking at it. Even after acquiring the Eien no Mangekyō Sharingan—Itachi's eyes—we are given something of an exposition of Itachi and Sasuke's respective dōryoku during their bout against Kabuto in Chapter 585, with Sasuke using the standard Genjutsu: Sharingan in contrast with Itachi's Tsukuyomi. If Kishimoto could have them cast Amaterasu in unison just beforehand, why not Tsukuyomi?

In the beginning, I thought it best not to push this here, as many of us were expecting another Databook much sooner. But with the years passing, and what we know of Sasuke's ocular powers, things have been gradually changing concerning this Tsukuyomi vs Kagutsuchi debate. I believe, with especially how often this wiki is referenced as this topic pops up in various forums, a fresh reevaluation should be taken on this entire matter using all the additional information that's been presented to us over the years. The fact of the matter is that Sasuke's "confirmed" possession of Tsukuyomi has, and always been established on a myriad of misconceptions, and presumptions; and rules concerning the techniques' efficacy were contorted to suit them. And more importantly, it's conflicting with what we are being told outright in the manga... That's kind of a problem. Apologies for the wall of text, but given how these discussions have played out in the past, I thought it best to be thorough. —「SaiST」 13:42, January 27, 2014 (UTC)

Amaterasu(sun)&Tsukuyomi(moon) are the eyes of Izanagi while Susanoo is the nose in the middle, kinda a trinity of Gods if you will. Doesn't make much sense for Sasuke to have first and third, skipping the second. Once and if we see a non-amaterasu&non-tsukuyomi user use Susanoo while having Kamui and Kotoamatsukami or whatever overpowered powers Kishi comes up with, you will have a point. Also Tsukuyomi can be used without the time altering aspect, viz Sasuke vs Itachi fight. Madara is a good candidate, we are yet to see Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi from him, so once and if we learn he can use Susanoo without them, the topic of Tsukuyomi removal from Sasuke may continue--Elveonora (talk) 17:47, January 27, 2014 (UTC)

I just want it known I have paid absolutely no attention this this discussion. I will read it over and (hopefully) contribute later.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 19:28, January 27, 2014 (UTC)

It is true that Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, and Susanoo are three of the most prominent, and referenced Shinto deities. I think it's quite fitting for the ocular powers named after the first two represent the apex of the Uchiha's combat specialties; Sharingan Genjutsu & Katon Ninjutsu. However, Kagutsuchi, their sibling, is the Shinto deity of fire, and flame-based abilities are often named after him throughout various anime, and manga.

Also, what leads you to believe that the Tsukuyomi used on Sasuke during his fight with Itachi did not alter his sense of time, as it always did before? The panel of Zetsu's reaction shown in the middle of the illusion? That doesn't exactly infer that everything we were seeing was passing along in real-time on Zetsu's end. —「SaiST」 20:34, January 27, 2014 (UTC)

... That's it then, huh? -_- Are there really none among you that think the aforementioned exposition of Itachi and Sasuke's respective ocular powers, and the manner in which Kagutsuchi has been perceived in this community—from simply a "spiked disc", to all-encompassing, black flame-bending catalyst(which also makes it more than a bit redundant with the way Blaze Release is defined here... But I'm going to leave that be for now)— give us enough merit for reevaluating this? —「SaiST」 15:42, February 6, 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry I said I was going to come back to this but I didn't (that work life is hard yo) but what does Kagutsuchi have to do with this discussion?--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 12:35, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

If I had to guess (and guessing other people's meanings is kind of my thing) I think SaiST is trying to say that the chapter in questions suggests that instead of having Tsukuyomi as his second Mangekyō ability, Sasuke has Blaze Release. And that, as Elveonora brought up the naming of the abilities as reasoning for it not making sense that Sasuke could lack Tsukuyomi but still achieve Susanoo, SaiST countered with Kagutsuchi (a part of Blaze Release) being another Shinto deity of the same general group.--Soul reaper (talk) 12:52, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Sigh, Tsukuyomi vs Blaze Release is one of the most commonly debated topics regarding Sasuke's eyes. It's true we didn't see/hear him utter "Tsukuyomi!!!" ever, but the genjutsu he used against Killer B is the best candidate for it, effect-wise, visually and contextually. Also Danzo's remark that everyone interprets differently for which wouldn't have been a need comparing an ordinary genjutsu to Tsukuyomi, it doesn't contextually make sense, since ordinary genjutsu can't alter perception/flow of time. Would be like comparing clitoris with penis, the former isn't supposed to be bigger... if it is, both parties have a problem lol. Anyway, that's the point I guess... Amaterasu&Tsukuyomi&Susanoo are a Trinity, take the first two as ingredients for the third... the recipe wouldn't work otherwise, but again, Sasuke's cooking skills might not be exemplary, considering he makes his own set of rules when it comes to the meal called plot.

Also one of my points I believe was clear enough, once and if we see Madara use a Mangekyou technique outside the trinity (like Kamui, Kotoamatsukami etc.) despite having Susanoo, he and Sasuke will become the #1 candidates for neutering for trolling us all along--Elveonora (talk) 14:43, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Madara finally showcasing the initial two ocular powers of his Mangekyō Sharingan would certainly help, but I'm starting to worry that Kishimoto's going to let that ship sail too with him becoming the Shinju's Jinchuuriki. Doesn't mean it won't happen, but I'm doubtful. My biggest fear is that deductive reasoning is put to the wayside and the perception of Sasuke having a watered down Tsukuyomi continues until the manga's long since concluded, and nobody longer cares even if Kishimoto gives the definitive answer they've all wanted. Same for the way Blaze Release is being defined.

And you may not like it, Elveonora, but there is some sensible context in Danzō comparing Sasuke's Genjutsu to Tsukuyomi. :P It's like drawing a comparison between two sports cars, commending the driver for keeping up, yet at the same time denouncing it as it's being compared to a Ferrari Enzo that can hit 60 from a standstill in 3.4 seconds. Doesn't mean the sports car being compared to it must also be a any type of Ferrari... First used that example over two years ago. Man, this debate has been going on for too long. —「SaiST」 15:47, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Blaze Release and Amaterasu are about as different from the other just as each of Obito eye's Kamui are, yet they are apparently the same technique. Kinda fishy for Sasuke to have magical fire in right mangekyou and slightly more magical fire in his left and Susanoo at the same time.--Elveonora (talk) 16:17, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

I'll probably be repeating what someone else may already have said, but here is how I think stuff works, considering what we know, and how I'd list stuff if it were up to me and me alone: I no longer think that Susanoo absolutely requires Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi specifically, just having a jutsu in both eyes. That would mean that Susanoo should have more than those two as a parent, BR: Kagutsuchi would be added as a parent. However, I still believe that Sasuke's MS genjutsu against B counts as Tsukuyomi, per reasons already discussed ad nauseam. This would also mean that Madara would no longer be listed as using Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, since we don't know his individual MS jutsu. Omnibender - Talk - Contributions 16:27, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Well, it's good to see that some of the old heads here are still thinking on it. Now if I can just instill within you enough reasonable doubt that the binding Genjutsu used on B was Tsukuyomi... *mulls*

Elveonora, Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi represent two cornerstones of chakra manipulation: Nature Transformation and Shape Transformation. One is creating the Nature Release, while the other is granting the user free reign over it. Those abilities are being made manifest through Sasuke's Susanoo as well, as it creates and manipulates black flames. While Obito and Kakashi's applicaiton of Kamui share traits(and the possibility of the only discrepancies present being due to the users, rather than the powers themselves), Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi have a much more distinct purpose. —「SaiST」 16:42, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Perish Satan! For this sheep is under my protection from your pesky influence. @Omni, you mean to say Sasuke has 4 Mangekyou techniques? Why would BR: Kagatsuchi be a parent tho? You agree to his possession of Tsukuyomi that makes one + Amaterasu second. That makes BR: Kagatsuchi fourth--Elveonora (talk) 17:13, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Lulz. But yes, if you recognize Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi as one of Sasuke's ocular powers along with the unconfirmed Tsukuyomi, you'd have to make sense of the three power limit Sasuke has set on us during the Kage Summit.

Two hundred and sixty one chapters now, fellas. *smirk* —「SaiST」 17:18, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

What 3 power limit? Did he actually say such a thing?--Elveonora (talk) 17:32, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

As mentioned earlier, Sasuke says that Susanoo is his Mangekyō Sharingan's third power during the Kage Summit. So, one of them doesn't belong. —「SaiST」 17:46, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Did he say that before or after first using Blaze Release?--Elveonora (talk) 18:07, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

After. Well after if you're of the opinion that Kagutsuchi was first utilized at the tail end of his fight with Killer B(I am~). Immediately after verifying that the ability to exert greater control over Amaterasu's flames was his right eye's ocular power, allusions began to be made about his acquisition of Susanoo. —「SaiST」 18:10, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

What does any of this have to do with Tsukuyomi?--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 19:10, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Apparently Sasuke stated himself to possess 3 Mangekyou powers. He has Susanoo and Amaterasu, so he either doesn't have Tsukuyomi or Blaze Release doesn't count as separate power.

@SaiST, it seems he put out the flames using his right Mangekyou for sure, a while ago I removed that bit from Blaze Release article because apparently so did Itachi, meaning it isn't unique to Sasuke's right eye or is it? Shi* this is getting more and more confusing--Elveonora (talk) 19:16, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Touched on that in Blaze Release's Talk Page, on the topic Seelentau made concerning it's debut, and whether or not it's responsible for extinguishing the flames. If we could take our lil' sub-discussion concerning that there, I'd appreciate it.

TheUltimate3, whenever the topic of Sasuke's possession of Tsukuyomi comes up, there are two inevitable paths the discussion will take: What defines Tsukuyomi beyond it's monochrome aesthetic, and what place Kagutsuchi has amongst Sasuke's 3 ocular powers. —「SaiST」 19:51, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

If Sasuke only have 3 dojutsu powers within his eye (when did he mention that?) then Blaze Release has to be an extention of Amaterasu because the databook (read: Naruto Holy Book) stated that to use Susanoo, the person must have Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi.--TheUltimate3 ^(talk) 20:04, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Yep, based on Itachi's lone example of the technique. Thought you said you were going to review the discussion. ;) And Susanoo was said to be his third power in Chapter 464.

Of course, this doesn't invalidate what the Databook says, but forces us to look at it within the context of the material it covered at the time. And while tacking on Kagutsuchi as Amaterasu's "extension" would be mighty convenient, there's the fact that it's been identified as a distinct ocular power, and cast from the opposing eye... And again, two hundred and sixty one(two, by tomorrow) chapters without a single mention of Tsukuyomi. —「SaiST」 20:16, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Please provide chapter for the 3 techniques statement as a reference first--Elveonora (talk) 22:04, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

I've mentioned it two or three times already though: 464... Unless you're looking for a link to an actual online reader, which I'm not even sure is allowed here. Here's a few translations though:

"This is a power that only one with two awakened Mangekyou can achieve... // The third power...... "Susanoo".". -cnet

"A power that only someone who's awakened the Mangekyou Sharingan in both eyes can wield... The third, and final ability, Susanoo!" -hisshouburaiken

"A power that only those who have awakened the Mangekyo in both eyes can achieve... The third power... The Susano'o" -Viz

There's one more out there, from SleepyFans I believe, with the the infamous "double Mangekyou" line. —「SaiST」 22:24, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

The VIZ translation will do, thank you. I think you are giving it a context of your own liking. He said that Susanoo needs two powers with it being the third, not that he has just three.--Elveonora (talk) 22:28, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

The generality of the statement and Susanoo being the third pretty much infers that much, Elveonora. Were the author trying to leave some ambiguity with the number of techniques he was trying to portray from Sasuke's end, he could have simply had him say that Susanoo was the "last" power for those that awakened the powers of both Mangekyō Sharingan. —「SaiST」 22:35, February 11, 2014 (UTC)

Databook 3 clearly states that the awakening of Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are the only things that can awaken Susanoo. Kishimoto himself made Databook 3 so it is fact, what you all are failing to see is that NOWHERE was it stated that an individual has a set amount of Mangekyo techniques they can learn/wield. Sasuke has shown 2 very different Genjutsu with his mangekyo going by the image of the techniques alone. One was directly compared to Tsukuyomi by Danzo, Danzo said "Itachi's Tsukuyomi was better IMO SUCKA" lol.. he was not comparing one separate Genjutsu to another, but Sasuke's Tsukuyomi to Itachi's Tsukuyomi. Sasuke has more than one Genjutsu, he just happens to suck at Tsukuyomi so he relies on the other Genjutsu now. Madara himself has shown the flame control of Amaterasu, putting it out when Sasuke hit him with it. Maybe Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi are the only 2 Mangekyo techniques that every Mangekyo user can awaken, but it is just simply rare, since Obito who was taught everything by Madara, said it was rare to awaken Susanoo.. meaning it was rare to have Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu at the same time. ItachiWasAHero (talk) 11:06, March 18, 2014 (UTC)

• The 3rd Databook's description of Susanoo, it's armament, and prerequisites was based on Itachi's example of the technique. Which has already been pointed out earlier.
• Danzō did not refer to Sasuke's Genjutsu as Tsukuyomi in the raw text, and there's a point in comparing them besides sizing up two Tsukuyomi. Also pointed out earlier.
• Madara did not "control" the flames from Sasuke's Amaterasu, he absorbed them, as was pointed out in that same chapter.
• Or perhaps Susanoo is just that rare because it requires a distinct ocular power in each eye, as Itachi and Sasuke have both demonstrated. Obito and Shisui did not follow that trend, and could have been examples of the more common result of Uchiha that awakened the Mangekyō Sharingan. —「SaiST」 21:55, March 21, 2014 (UTC)

Right, gonna throw my two cent in here.

Itachi - Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi and Susanoo

Sasuke - Amaterasu, Rubbish Tsukuyomi?, BR Kagutsuchi and Susanoo

Obito - Kamui (First Party) and Kamui (Third Party)

Shisui - Kotoamatsukami (Both Eyes seemingly)

Madara - Tsukuyomi, Susanoo

Now there's been a lot of talk about who uses what eye for what and how many powers, but I'm simply gonna focus on some other thoughts.

1. Obito and Shisui have both eyes accounted for, but both seemingly only possess one technique, admittedly Obito's is two variants, but since Kamui doesn't cover a single deity, I'm gonna consider the name influence as to be why it's a multiform technique.

2. Shisui's eyes seemingly use the exact same technique with no variation and given all the **** people talk about him, I'm gonna go ahead and say that Tsukuyomi's status as top dog of Uchiha Genjutsu is kinda debatable.

3. Madara must have Tsukuyomi. It is not up for debate. As he had already formulated his plan before Obito even awakened his Mangekyou. Unless he was counting on having an Uchiha on hand who had Tsukuyomi and would co-operate with him, he must have some way to use it himself in order to carry out his plan. If he doesn't, then quite frankly Kishi is a god damned moron and really didn't think this through.

4. Before he died, Itachi seemingly imbued Sasuke's eyes with the ability to use Amaterasu. Who is to say that the powers Sasuke's eyes possess naturally and the ones he was referring to aren't Kagutsuchi, Tsukuyomi and Susanoo? And that his use of Amaterasu wasn't just a result of Itachi's handiwork or Sasuke's misinterpretation of his own powers? As the only times he used it without the Transcription Seal were against Bee and A and both times he seemingly controlled the flames, extinguishing them on Bee and Shaping them against A.

Personally, I think Sasuke is just the Public Bicycle of Uchiha powers and we're looking too much into this particular part, but I'll present this information for anyone still looking to debate this. --Hawkeye2701 (talk) 00:23, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

For 3. Infinite Tsukuyomi has nothing to do with Mangekyou's Tsukuyomi besides the name. Obito doesn't even have Tsukuyomi, just Kamui and if Naruto didn't defeat him, he would have succeeded casting it, completing the moon eye plan himself.--Elveonora (talk) 14:21, March 22, 2014 (UTC)

Additionally, it's been confirmed that the Genjutsu Madara cast on Obito, which was cast from a regular ol' spare Sharingan, was indeed Mugen Tsukuyomi. It is named as such due to the method of delivery, not because it is some kind of amplified Tsukuyomi.

Concerning #4: The Amaterasu Itachi imbued into Sasuke's left eye was Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu, a fuuinjutsu that was released once the specific conditions were met. Sasuke's ability to cast Amaterasu since awakening his own Mangekyō Sharingan has only ever been attributed to his own ocular power. His and Itachi's shared use of it has also been linked to their sibling relationship; Sasuke's possession of it was mentioned as something that should be expected of Itachi's younger brother. This was after Sasuke used Amaterasu on Danzō, Kagutsuchi wasn't used anytime during what we could see of that battle.

And #1: Obito doesn't really have two variants of the same ocular power. Ever since Kakashi has come to the realization that his Kamui and the Obito's Jikuukan Idou were the same ability, he's been using it in similar ways. The only discrepancy that currently lies between them is Obito's ability to phase, and Kakashi's long-range application. These discrepancies may be present due to the users, and how they are able to make use of this same power, rather than the eyes themselves... But it should be noted that Kakashi can teleport his entire body to and from the other dimensional space, and that Obito had to have some way of negating, from a distance, the Kamui Kakashi tried to use to decapitate the Gedou Mazou... Boy, this is getting a lil' off-topic. —「SaiST」 02:29, March 23, 2014 (UTC)