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  • Errors due to inclusion, if any, will not be covered in this thread. For now, this thread will cover omissions of users in the list of users for jutsu, omissions of Natures in the Nature chart and of characters’ characteristics. Some of these were my own observations and others were pointed out by various people from all over the English-speaking internet. Work is in progress, so suggestions are welcomed.

    Keys/Legends

    #Fact#: The proposed omission is conclusively contradictory to other information in canon, and has consequently been validated to be an untenable omission. The incongruency is conspicuously explicit.

    #Conjecture#: The proposed omission is not conveniently congruent with information in canon, and therefore is problematic.

    Omissions of users in the list of users for jutsu

    • Madara omitted from Izanagi #fact#
    Izanagi in chp. 681
    Chibaku Tensei in chp. 676
    Susanoo with high resemblance to Kanseitai Susanoo in chp. 688, 689, etc
    • Sasuke omitted from Kanseitai Susanoo #conjecture#
    Susanoo with high resemblance to Kanseitai Susanoo in chp. 647, 648, etc

    Omissions of Natures in the Nature chart

    • Earth Nature omitted for Choji #fact#
    Earth nature technique in chp. 630
    • Water Nature omitted for Mū #conjecture#
    4th databook entry (p. 296) for Mujin Meisai
    • Yin Nature omitted for Hashirama #conjecture#
    Genjutsu in chp. 122
    Extra info

    Gengetsu stated that his Nature being Yin makes him a genjutsu user (chp. 548). The fourth databook entry for Yin-Yang Release also stated that "the proportional amount of genjutsu that involves creating form from nothing is high" (p. 226, Geg's translation).

    • Yin Nature omitted for Nagato #conjecture#
    Genjutsu in chp. 418
    • Yang Nature omitted for Danzo #conjecture#
    Izanagi in chp. 479
    Extra info
    Banbutsu Sōzō, the parent technique of Izanagi, is Yin-Yang Nature (chp. 510)

    Omissions of characteristics

    • Kekkei Genkai omitted for Zetsu #fact#
    Wood Nature is attested in chp. 545
    Wood Nature is shown in chp. 536, 562, etc
    • Kuchiyose omitted for Danzo #fact#
    Kuchiyose in chp. 479
    • Kekkei Genkai omitted for Kabuto #fact#
    Sakon and Ukon's Kekkei Genkai and Shikotsumyaku in chp. 585
    • Kuchiyose omitted for Kabuto #fact#
    Kuchiyose in chp. 489
    • Senjutsu omitted for Madara #fact#
    Senpō techniques in chp. 674
    • Kekkei Genkai omitted for Kaguya #conjecture#
    Byakugan in chp. 681
    Probable reason for omission

    Hyūga clan's Byagukan and Kaguya clan's Shikotsumyaku are tagged as "remnants of Kaguya Ōtsutsuki" and "remnants of her blood" in the fourth databook (p. 25, Seelentau's translation), and all of Kaguya's techniques that are featured in the fourth databook are classed as kekkei mōra instead of as kekkei genkai.

    • Kekkei Genkai omitted for Hagoromo #conjecture#
    Rinnegan is attested in chp. 373, 375
    Rinnegan is shown in chp. 670, 671, etc
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    • Nice, I actually had the same idea. I'll see what I can find, later. :)

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    • Nice. If I could actually read Japanese I would look for more. Whats already translated is already on the internet and at hand pretty much..

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    • Iwagakure Kinjutsu - In terms of what's its proper name like how Kakuzu's is Earth Grudge Fear.

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    • That's not what this thread is about, Umishiru. ;)

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    • sorry.

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    • In my opinion no Senjutsu for Kaguya too is an error. Also Jugo's techniques not being listed as both kekkei genkai and senjutsu, but just ninjutsu instead seems like an error to me.

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    • Elveonora wrote: In my opinion no Senjutsu for Kaguya too is an error. Also Jugo's techniques not being listed as both kekkei genkai and senjutsu, but just ninjutsu instead seems like an error to me.

      The list focuses on omissions that can be directly referenced to canon-materials in order to prove that they're indeed omissions. I don't know of any reference from the manga that I can include for Juugo's kekkei genkai or Kaguya's senjutsu. If you know of any, please share them as that will be very helpful for this list.

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    • Jugo's powers are a clan thing and it's not hiden, so nothing that can be simply taught&learned. Kabuto got Jugo's power from his cells and Juinka users use Jugo's bodily fluids.

      For Kaguya, the Truth Seeking Ball uses natural energy and YYR which nullifies chakra, but can't nullify senjutsu chakra because natural energy is effective against itself as shown with TT jinchuuriki. The Ten-Tails was also stated to be a mass of natural energy. Since Kaguya uses chakra and also natural energy with it, isn't her chakra Senjutsu chakra?

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    • Elveonora wrote: Jugo's powers are a clan thing and it's not hiden, so nothing that can be simply taught&learned. Kabuto got Jugo's power from his cells and Juinka users use Jugo's bodily fluids.

      For Kaguya, the Truth Seeking Ball uses natural energy and YYR which nullifies chakra, but can't nullify senjutsu chakra because natural energy is effective against itself as shown with TT jinchuuriki. The Ten-Tails was also stated to be a mass of natural energy. Since Kaguya uses chakra and also natural energy with it, isn't her chakra Senjutsu chakra?

      Do you want your suggestion for Juugo to be the only one in the entire list that is based on a speculative inference (btw, a very reasonable one) and without any reference to canon?

      Does TSB really have senjutsu chakra in it? I took the effort to flip through really quickly but found nothing (mind pointing me in the right direction?). TT is a mass of natural energy, but that is not senjutsu. In fact, the normal environment is a repository of natural energy, so do you think that warrants it to be classed as senjutsu?

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    • It is referenced by canon. Kabuto injected himself with blood of others, Jugo's included and got his powers. The Juinka was also stated to use Jugo's bodily fluids, so yes. Well, it certainly has natural energy inside and it's chakra too. When something has both chakra (physical and spiritual energies) and natural energy as well, isn't it senjutsu chakra?

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    • Elveonora wrote: It is referenced by canon. Kabuto injected himself with blood of others, Jugo's included and got his powers. The Juinka was also stated to use Jugo's bodily fluids, so yes. Well, it certainly has natural energy inside and it's chakra too. When something has both chakra (physical and spiritual energies) and natural energy as well, isn't it senjutsu chakra?

      Honestly, how sound does this look:

      • Kekkei Genkai omitted for Juugo
      Kabuto injected Juugo's blood in chp. xxx

      So the only abilities that can ever be inherited when someone integrates foreign somatic material into their body are kekkei genkai? (This is the only rationale that can vindicate your proposition).

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    • Regardless of whether Jūgo's techniques are kekkei genkai, they should still be classified as senjutsu, since they are an application of his "Sage Transformation" ability. That said, this book may still hold more answers about senjutsu and Sage Transformation, if the the White Snake Sage's entry is anything to go by.

      As for Truth-Seeking Balls, they were said to be made of "Six Paths Sage Chakra" in chapter 674, and their entry in this very book says they are used by Six Paths Senjutsu users.

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    • BeyondRed wrote: Regardless of whether Jūgo's techniques are kekkei genkai, they should still be classified as senjutsu, since they are an application of his "Sage Transformation" ability. That said, this book may still hold more answers about senjutsu and Sage Transformation, if the the White Snake Sage's entry is anything to go by.

      As for Truth-Seeking Balls, they were said to be made of "Six Paths Sage Chakra" in chapter 674, and their entry in this very book says they are used by Six Paths Senjutsu users.

      Yes, omission of senjutsu for Juugo's techniques are in line for inclusion to the list, but I haven't expanded the list to include omissions in classifications for techniques yet. I'm still waiting for sufficient material to be translated so that we can have more information on those issues before I start adding them, in order to maintain the high specificity of the information in this list. I just don't think it'll be a good idea to fiddle with too many incomplete information and interesting speculations.

      Thanks for the lead. I'm searching for the translation for Truth Seeking Ball (TSB) and its databook page number so that I can mention it in the list. BTW, nothing of such was said in chapter 674. Sasuke did say (and observe) that the Six Paths Sage Chakra (SPSC) was able to harm Madara after Naruto smacked him with TSB. The only legitimate conclusion that can be drawn from ONLY that chapter is that it was either Naruto's SPSC or the TSB's inherent SPSC that harmed Madara. It is impossible to narrow it down any further, especially considering the fact that we know that Naruto had SPSC.

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    • @NoJutsu, that's exactly how kekkei genkai work, they are genetic. Since Jugo's blood is required for passive absorption of natural energy and X-Men transformation, then yes, it's a kekkei genkai.

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    • Elveonora wrote: @NoJutsu, that's exactly how kekkei genkai work, they are genetic. Since Jugo's blood is required for passive absorption of natural energy and X-Men transformation, then yes, it's a kekkei genkai.

      That wasn't what I was asking though, and yeah I know that's how kekkei genkai works. I'll clarify my question: is kekkei genkai the only ability that can ever be gained/inherited when someone integrates foreign somatic material into their body?

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    • Well, besides kekkei genkai they may get HIV as well. Joking aside, boosts in life force (whatever that is), chakra reserves and so on can also occur from transplants, but those aren't unique to a clan.

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    • Elveonora wrote: Well, besides kekkei genkai they may get HIV as well. Joking aside, boosts in life force (whatever that is), chakra reserves and so on can also occur from transplants, but those aren't unique to a clan.

      Awesome, let's roll. Kekkei genkai are techniques/abilities that are inherited through blood. But not all traits inherited through blood are kekkei genkai. Examples are: strong life force that run in clans/families, basic elemental affinities that run in clans (e.g. Fire and Yin for the Uchiha), etc. It is possible to have a trait that runs in a particular clan, and that is not a kekkei genkai. Now unto the next part of your point.

      You should consider Kakuzu that gains abilities that are not kekkei genkai when he incorporates foreign hearts into his body, and these abilities can include any clan-trademark Elemental affinity his victims might have. Of course, it works out like that for him specifically because of the special method he uses to incorporate the foreign hearts. So the method does matter a lot. Kabuto also had his own method as well, of which we have only vague details about. Sasuke's body absorbed a lot of Juugo's cell/tissue but he never gained Juugo's abilities, and that's because the method matters. So depending on the method, the results will vary, and abilities or powerups other than kekkei genkai can be gained when an individual incorporates foreign somatic material into their body: Kakuzu gained elemental affinities and Sasuke regenerated a decimated chest. And of course, kekkei genkai can also be gained likewise. (BTW, I don't remember where Kabuto says anything about incorporating Juugo's cells into his body, but I assumed that you're right and replied accordingly).

      Summary. It is possible to have a trait that runs in a particular clan, and that is not a kekkei genkai. In the case of Juugo's clan, they simply have a trait that makes it much easier for them to absorb natural energy. Also, as other instances in the manga demonstrates, it is possible for someone (or in this case Kabuto) to incorporate foreign somatic material into their body and subsequently obtain abilities that are not kekkei genkai. Finally, neither the manga nor the databook directly supports your theory. BTW, keep in mind that I'm not claiming that Juugo absolutely doesn't have a kekkei genkai, instead I'm trying to show you why it is impossible to argue that he definitely has a kekkei genkai.

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    • Re-read the fight against Itachi and Sasuke. It was said Kabuto has Jugo's power and then Kabuto goes on about how Jugo's Clan have unique bodies that passively absorb natural energy. Also Jugo is one of the subjects shown when the blood soup flashback is shown. On top of that, in the chapter Orochimaru's revival, Jugo himself confirms Kabuto uses Senninka.

      On the part: "Kekkei genkai are techniques/abilities that are inherited through blood. But not all traits inherited through blood are kekkei genkai" I never disagreed, it's true, but nature affinities, life force and so on are things that everyone has while passive absorption of natural energy and X-Men transformation aren't.

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    • Elveonora wrote: Re-read the fight against Itachi and Sasuke. It was said Kabuto has Jugo's power and then Kabuto goes on about how Jugo's Clan have unique bodies that passively absorb natural energy. Also Jugo is one of the subjects shown when the blood soup flashback is shown. On top of that, in the chapter Orochimaru's revival, Jugo himself confirms Kabuto uses Senninka.

      On the part: "Kekkei genkai are techniques/abilities that are inherited through blood. But not all traits inherited through blood are kekkei genkai" I never disagreed, it's true, but nature affinities, life force and so on are things that everyone has while passive absorption of natural energy and X-Men transformation aren't.

      I guess I should have clarified that I was well-informed on those events offhand. There is nothing about Kabuto injecting himself with Juugo's whatever. I've checked again to confirm that my memory was not messing with me. Kabuto described the connection between Juugo's ability and natural energy, and then adds that he has surpassed it. And even if we assume a hypothetical case where Kabuto had injected himself with Juugo's stuff, I already thoroughly laid out in my above posts why your theory is still untenable. It is possible for someone to incorporate foreign somatic material into their body and subsequently obtain abilities that are not kekkei genkai.

      Juugo's clan has the ability to absorb natural energy far much more easier than other regular people; likewise the Uzumaki have an incredible life force that's far greater than regular people's. Nothing makes Juugo's ability any more special than the Uzumaki's. Contrast Juugo's ability to the Sharingan's and see the clear differences between a confirmed, time-honoured kekkei genkai and a speculative one: No matter how many times a regular shinobi slaps, punches and trains themselves, their eyes will never turn into the magic eye, but if they keep at it long enough, under proper tutelage, they will be able to replicate Juugo's ability and even surpass it. Morever, a regular shinobi cannot replicate the Uzumaki's ability no matter how much they train, which makes the Uzumaki's unique life force a better candidate for kekkei genkai than Juugo's ability. This portion of you theory is also untenable because it is possible to have a trait that uniquely runs in a particular clan, and that is not a kekkei genkai.

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    • Just glancing through, but Karin is specifically mentioned as only showing a "fragment" (an incomplete, rudimentary version) of Adamantine Sealing Chains, not the actual technique.

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    • Not sure if I should take you seriously at this point NoJutsu. So anyone can in theory train to passively absorb natural energy and to shapeshift into hideous forms? You have no evidence for that.

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    • WindStar7125
      WindStar7125 removed this reply because:
      dp
      06:31, November 26, 2014
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    • FF-Suzaku wrote: Just glancing through, but Karin is specifically mentioned as only showing a "fragment" (an incomplete, rudimentary version) of Adamantine Sealing Chains, not the actual technique.

      Oh ok. I'll correct that.

      Elveonora wrote: Not sure if I should take you seriously at this point NoJutsu. So anyone can in theory train to passively absorb natural energy and to shapeshift into hideous forms? You have no evidence for that.

      Yes and no. Someone (e.g. Hashirama and Naruto) can train till they are able to absorb natural energy effortlessly, just like Juugo. But also, they still absorb it of their own volition, unlike Juugo. But tell me, which other kekkei genkai can be replicated by simply applying some ointment? No kind of ointment can make a normal eyes become a Byakugan or Sharingan, whereas we have one that can replicate Juugo's so-called kekkei genkai. Sorry, but your hypothesis is too shaky.

      There is nothing left to discuss on this issue, and you have the right to hold onto your hypothesis, but save yourself the effort of trying to argue that it is tight in canon, because it is absolutely full of holes as I've thoroughly pointed out above. I still respect your opinion/theory, as it is a competent one.

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    • Except it's being presented as a fact on this very wiki.

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    • What has water nature have to do with Mu's invisibility?

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    • His invis tech is apparently Water Release. Or at least its description suggests such, tho the book omits water nature for Mu.

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    • Here's a no-brainer. Gaara and Magnet Release.

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    • WindStar7125
      WindStar7125 removed this reply because:
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      23:39, November 26, 2014
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    • Another omission: It was stated in the databook that gaining power from Hagoromo grants Yin-Yang Release, yet Yin was omitted from Naruto and Yang was omitted from Sasuke.

      Edit: Also, all genjutsu is Yin Release, and Hashirama used a genjutsu in the manga, but Yin was omitted from him.

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    • Elveonora wrote: His invis tech is apparently Water Release. Or at least its description suggests such, tho the book omits water nature for Mu.

      I saw the water kanji in the description, but without a proper translation, it shouldn't be considered an omission, Mu without Water Release. We've seen water related techniques not being Water Release before, for example, Sakura's Delicate Illness Extraction Technique.

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    • @Omnibender. Turrin from NF did a translation for it. The technique uses water to bend light rays. Turrin wasn't confident in the translation though. That's why I still tagged it as #conjecture#
      _________

      Elveonora wrote: Except it's being presented as a fact on this very wiki.

      Well, that is not something to write home about. It's good to see that Omnibender has started a discussion to set things right.


      _________

      WindStar7125 wrote: Another omission: It was stated in the databook that gaining power from Hagoromo grants Yin-Yang Release, yet Yin was omitted from Naruto and Yang was omitted from Sasuke.

      Edit: Also, all genjutsu is Yin Release, and Hashirama used a genjutsu in the manga, but Yin was omitted from him.

      Thanks, I will add that.

      That was already there.
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      Reliops wrote: Here's a no-brainer. Gaara and Magnet Release.

      Sorry, but there are no references in the manga or databook that can directly support it (at least, that I know of). If you know of any references, feel free to share them.

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    • I don't know if this counts as conjecture, but I say that the second mizukage's steaming danger tyrant not having hydrification technique as a parent technique, mainly for the fact that his hydrification is explicitly stated to be of similar consistency as oil in chapter 556; the Jōki Bōi technique is explained to use the oil and water inside the mizukage's body in chapter 557. It also makes a little more sense why he would be left severely vulnerable after using it, at least to me. I believe that it's a merger between hydrification technique and the water clone, using his oily substance as the water source to create a unique water clone that has special properties. Does that make sense to anyone else or am I overlooking something?

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    • You're making a wrong connection, yes. Gengetsu's water is oily, that's why his hydrification is oily and that's also why his water clone is oily. But that doesn't mean that there's a connection between hydrification and the water clone. The hydrification is no parent technique of Joki Boy, but the clone can use it, of course.

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    • NoJutsu wrote: Sorry, but there are no references in the manga or databook that can directly support it (at least, that I know of). If you know of any references, feel free to share them.

      I would consider Naruto's Rasenshuriken to be the proof but people tend to disagree.

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    • What does Naruto's Rasen Shuriken have to do with Gaara's Magnet Release?

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    • Nothing you'd care about.

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    • Stop behaving like a child and tell me. I wouldn't have asked if I didn't care.

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    • /sigh

      Naruto does the Magnet Release Rasenshuriken, sand is floating around it. Indirectly stating that the sand is there because of the Magnet Release. But because it was never stated directly you've considered not worth mentioning. Which you've said, countless times. Hence why "Nothing you'd care about."

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    • When Naruto used the Magnet Rasengan, there was no sand.

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    • And I didn't mention the Rasengan did I? (And if I where, I'd say the Rasengan itself was made of sand but that'd just be my interpretation which means next to nothing)

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    • There was sand there Seelentau. I saw it clearly...

      SageArtSTBR.png

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    • @ItachiWasAHero

      Seelentau was referring to Sage Art: Magnet Release Rasengan.

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    • Either way sand is present in magnet release as shown there clearly.

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    • ItachiWasAHero wrote: Either way sand is present in magnet release as shown there clearly.

      I believe what Seelentau has been saying all along is that the technique shown there may not be the same Sage Art: Magnet Release Rasengan that we saw in an earlier chapter, because: one it looks slightly different, and two it wasn't named as such.

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    • What TU3 said. There's no sand in one Magnet Release technique, but in another. We don't know why that is, so I believe we should not take it into account. Or do you guys think that, because one is a Rasen Shuriken and the other is not, there's a difference in the presence of sand?

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    • We do know Rasen Shuriken has wind release in it... is there a way that can take it into account here? Rasa AND Gaara indeed have Wind Release, they both have rings, and Rasa is a blatantly confirmed Magnet release user...

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    • They both have Earth Release too.

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    • Then the sand got moved by the wind or what?

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    • That's what I thought. But that "thought" would have gotten drowned in the Sand = Magnet argument -_-

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    • Gaara uses his chakra to move the sand...since Gaara was the Ichibi's jin would it be false to put list him as a magnet user but keep it seperate from his sand manipulation abilities? Would that put an end to this madness? It's clear that it has nothing to do sand movement, so....*Shrugs*

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    • Bunpuku also had rings, as Shukaku's Jinchuriki's get rings, magnet release and sand thorough either Wind Release alone or Magnet Release. We must also remember it was clearly said Gaara was the only compatible person with Shukaku, Temari had wind release too so that can't be used in an argument here. What other reason could there be for Gaara being the only of his kids compatible?

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    • Bunpuku had no rings, ffs. He is old, his eyes are sunken in.

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    • ItachiWasAHero wrote: Bunpuku also had rings, as Shukaku's Jinchuriki's get rings, magnet release and sand thorough either Wind Release alone or Magnet Release. We must also remember it was clearly said Gaara was the only compatible person with Shukaku, Temari had wind release too so that can't be used in an argument here. What other reason could there be for Gaara being the only of his kids compatible?

      Very good points, but still a speculation though. That's the problem.

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    • Bunpuku.png look at his right eye.

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    • I did and these are eyes that are sunken in. This is so obvious, I have no idea why anyone would assume anything else. Maybe the anime will depict it more clearly.

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    • Theory:

      • the reason why there was no sand in Jinton: Rasengan is because Naruto took Jinton chakra molded by Shukaku and added it to Rasengan
      • the reason why there was sand in Jinton: Rasenshuriken is because Naruto didn't use Jinton chakra molded by Shukaku, but added Doton chakra to his (Fuuton) Rasenshuriken and the wind cut the earth into sand or so.

      This is obviously just a crackpot, but the databook has made more harm than good and I don't really care anymore. Blaze Release gets removed, Jugo's kekkei genkai gets removed, all just because of some idiotic book that took half a decade to make and isn't worth it.

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    • We should have a thread and discuss as a community how we handle the databook information in conjunction with the manga. It's simply lazy to take a stupid book at face value and completely disregard the primary source of every bit of content we have on this wiki, known as the manga. The Blaze Release issue is just the most damning of all of them....omitting it just absurdity of the highest order.

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    • The databook has issues, but they're not overarching in my opinion. The manga is not without issues either, so there is no point in singling out the databook for some spanking.

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    • @NoJutsu. That's laughable considering the thread we're posting in. The fact that it even exists here means that it's overarching.

      Example.....I was told yesterday that Amaterasu is no different from Black Lightning. That's invalid, because the only shinobi we've seen use it in the manga was Darui, and based on how he dubbed the technique it's clear that it's just a "Raiton" technique. "Enton" is a different matter entirely, for Sasuke since the Kage Summit arc referred to it as "Enton: Kagutsuchi or Enton: Susanoo Kagutsuchi". "Enton" and "Katon" are two completely different natures, and that's a manga fact supported by Chap 464. Hell, the DB even calls it as such. It may not be an advanced nature, but it's a separate nature nonetheless and thus should be noted here as part of Sasuke and Itachi's abilites respectively.

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    • Enton was never called a chakra nature.

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    • Uh, 464 confirmed that Amaterasu flames and Kagutsuchi flames are the same, and that Blaze Release is the release of black flames. Didn't necessarily specify that Katon and Enton are "completely different."

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    • They aren't the same thing either. Otherwise, he'd call it "Katon: Kagutsuchi" or something to that effect. The manga suggests that they aren't close to the same thing. And @Seel, if Enton was never called a chakra nature then why not simply note it in the article and list Blaze Release as a dojustu in both Sasuke's and Itachi's infobox so people don't confuse it for an elemental nature that anyone can use? Kishi put Enton in his manga for a reason, therefore Blaze Release exists and should be noted. Omitting it is absurd and lazy to be honest...

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    • That's exactly what should've been done by now.

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    • Blaze Release was noted in the Fire Release article, tho. Hasn't completely disappeared like you've been saying.

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    • I'm not sure you get what I'm suggesting. What I'm suggesting here, is list Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi as Blaze Release, place the icons as KKG in Sasuke and Itachi's infobox since that's exactly what it is, but since it isn't a "chakra nature" per say, place in parenthesis next to it (dojustu). That way, since only two guys can use it, we can differentiate them and easily state in the Blaze Release article that it mustn't be confused for the common KKG. This would satisfy both the DB and the manga.

      @WS7125, I get what you're saying completely. But "Katon" and "Enton" are two completely different levels of flames and has been noted in both the manga and Jin no sho as such. It should be treated as such on this wiki.

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    • But Blaze Release still is no chakra nature. So why would it be in the userbox?

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    • Minamoto15 wrote: @NoJutsu. That's laughable considering the thread we're posting in. The fact that it even exists here means that it's overarching.

      I don't expect this list, even after it expands to include other categories, to go past 50 bulletpoints. Try the 700 chapters, and you will end up with enough stuff to fill a textbook. Stop singling out the databook for scrutiny.

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    • Tau, it doesn't have to be a chakra nature to have it listed in the userbox. Do we not have Sharingan and Rinnegan icons listed there? Clan affiliations? Etc.? These are obviously all different things. Once you place ~~dojustu next to the Blaze Release icon, it keeps the chakra nature element of the discussion out of it. It's a technique that only manifests through the eyes and we already know what all chakra natures and the advanced ones are, so doing what I'm suggesting differentiates them completely. That's because those aren't visual techs....

      @NoJutsu I'm not trying to do anything. The DB is obviously very flawed and that's all there is to it. You created this thread, so why you're challenging this beyond me. If you choose to ignore the facts, then that's your problem.

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    • But where was it said that Blaze Release is a dojutsu? Kagutsuchi is, because Sasuke forms the flames with his eye. But Blaze Release alone?

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    • There is also Naruto and Sasuke's Scorch Release, and from what I've heard in forums, it was also named like that in the databook (I haven't been able to confirm this), so it probably can't be considered a meaningless name that Minato came up with on a whim anymore. Yet, Kakashi stated that it is impossible to make a new nature without having a kekkei genkai. Unless the databook is now telling us that characters can now use advanced releases without having the natures. Kishi just couldn't make up his mind on what to make of the release and natures.

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    • Well, yeah. You just said it. Chap. 464 confirmed Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi to be both Blaze Release, and both are dojutsu. Sasuke is the only one with Kagutsuchi and Amaterasu (Blaze Release standing alone). Itachi just has Amaterasu and that too, is a visual jutsu. Unlike the other chakra natures, these two don't require hand seals. Sasuke unleashes the flame with one eye, and either dispells or changes it's shape with the other. Either way it's manifested through the eyes.

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    • But Blaze Release still is no chakra nature on its own, it's just a special kind of Katon.

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    • You're right. It's not a chakra nature, but a special kind of Katon manifested through the eyes. It's "Enton", hence "Blaze Release". That's why placing ~~dojutsu next to Enton's icon will ensure that people don't confuse it for a chakra nature.

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    • WindStar7125 wrote: Uh, 464 confirmed that Amaterasu flames and Kagutsuchi flames are the same, and that Blaze Release is the release of black flames. Didn't necessarily specify that Katon and Enton are "completely different."

      Kankourou did equate the black flames to Amaterasu in chp. 464, which is correct. Gaara mentioned the black flames but didn't associate it with either Amaterasu or Blaze Release. WindStar7125 I think you over-interpreted chp. 464.

      I still failed to see how Amaterasu = Blaze Release. Amaterasu is a technique that casts the black flames (as stated in 2nd and 3rd DB, and shown several times in the manga) and the name "Blaze Release" debuted as part of the name of Sasuke's technique that controls and reshapes black flames.

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    • The thing is, shaping a nature does not advance it. For example, when Sasuke shapes Chidori into Chidori Sharp Spear, the Sharp Spear doesn't advance to a new lightning nature. That's part of the reason why Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi have the same nature.

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    • WindStar7125 wrote: The thing is, shaping a nature does not advance it. For example, when Sasuke shapes Chidori into Chidori Sharp Spear, the Sharp Spear doesn't advance to a new lightning nature. That's part of the reason why Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi have the same nature.

      Yeah, I know shaping a nature should not advance it, and I know Blaze Release also allows Sasuke to control and reshape the black flames, but how does that make Amaterasu = Blaze?

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    • NoJutsu wrote: Yeah, I know shaping a nature should not advance it, and I know Blaze Release also allows Sasuke to control and reshape the black flames, but how does that make Amaterasu = Blaze?

      Yes, exactly. We agree, shaping a nature does not advance it. :) Due to that, shaping Amaterasu means the nature of Amaterasu is not advanced. Meaning Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi, the technique that shapes Amaterasu, and Amaterasu itself are the same nature, because we've established that shaping a nature does not advance nor change it. That means Amaterasu and Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi are both Fire like the databook says, or they're both Blaze.

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    • WindStar7125 wrote:

      NoJutsu wrote: Yeah, I know shaping a nature should not advance it, and I know Blaze Release also allows Sasuke to control and reshape the black flames, but how does that make Amaterasu = Blaze?

      Yes, exactly. We agree, shaping a nature does not advance it. :) Due to that, shaping Amaterasu means the nature of Amaterasu is not advanced. Meaning Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi, the technique that shapes Amaterasu, and Amaterasu itself are the same nature, because we've established that shaping a nature does not advance nor change it. That means Amaterasu and Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi are both Fire like the databook says, or they're both Blaze.

      That ONLY adds up if shape transformation is all that Blaze Release does.

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    • Blaze Release still is no advanced nature. It could be a shaped Katon, though.

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    • But that's the only thing we were told it does. And from observation, it's true, the black flames' effects don't change when Kagutsuchi is applied, it just changes shapes or is moved around.

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    • @NoJutsu, you're saying Blaze Release shapes Amaterasu. Blaze Release is not what shapes Amaterasu. That's the fire nature. Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi shapes Amaterasu.

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    • Enton ≠ Katon. The flames are clearly different. It's an enhanced verison of Katon that's unique to Sasuke and Itachi's Mangekyō Sharingan, and should be noted in their infoboxes.

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    • Enton = a stronger Katon, but still Katon.

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    • I think you & I are interpreting this differently because if that were really true, Kishi wouldn't have bothered with "Enton" to start with. Plus, Enton incinerates everything in it's path, including Katon. Common sense dictates differentiating them on this wiki, but I know you're ripping this right out of the DB which eliminates common sense & promotes contradiction. Since that's what takes precedence for some reason, I'll stop right here.

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    • An enhanced version of Katon is still Katon.

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    • Yeah, that's why it's dubbed Katon: Kagutsuchi. We'll agree to disagree. It's fine.

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    • wtf, if you enhance something (making it black and stronger), but keep its base the same (flames), then it's still the base (Katon), but on a stronger level (Enton). What's so hard to understand about it?

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      • sigh* Ask yourself this, how is Enton being manifested compared to any Katon technique? The answer to this question is my point. Have you seen Itachi or Sasuke use hand seals to manifest Enton like they would Katon? No. Or was it formed through their Sharingan? Yes. I agree with you that Enton = a stronger Katon simply given that they're both flames. But since the source of both these things are vastly different as well as their use in combat, note it in their infobox. It's not an advanced nature either as you've said, so more reason to note it as opposed to just omitting it. I understand just fine Tau. I'm not a fool.
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    • I don't even believe Enton is doujutsu-specific. I'm still highly sure that each time black flames appeared in Sasuke's hand, he didn't use his eye/s off-screen.

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    • Minamoto, it's manifested through the eye. But how does that change anything?

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    • @Elve...it is dojutsu specific. Sasukes chakra control is great enough that he can shape it in his hand, but without the Mangekyō he wouldn't be able to even manifest it.

      @Seel. I think it does. He wouldn't be able to perform Enton otherwise, right? Enton is obviously different from regular Katon even if at the core they're both flames. The black flames(Enton) play a different offensive role then ordinary flames(Katon), and that's what Kishi wanted to portray in his manga. That's ALL I'm saying.

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    • You're not wrong with anything, it's just that everything you said adds up to Blaze Release being just a stronger Fire Release.

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    • I'm glad we've found common ground. So then now that we know that's the case, why get rid of the Blaze Release in info boxes? Is it because your afraid people will mistake it for an advanced nature?

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    • I'm not for removing it from the box, I'm just for removing it from the Kekkei Genkai section, because it's no Kekkei Genkai like Lava Release, for example.

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    • Then what about the instances when black flames appeared in Sasuke's hand without him having used Amaterasu?

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    • What about them?

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    • I believe he's implying that Sasuke as shown the ability to create the black fire without using the technique Amaterasu. If I were a guessing man, he's presenting the argument that creation of the black fire itself is not Amaterasu but well the ability to create the black fire and Amaterasu is "Black Fire over my field of vision", which may or may not be his way of trying to justify "Blaze Release" being its own thing.

      If I wanted to be a sonovabitch, I would have to agree with Elvenora and go a step forward, stating that the times we've seen him create black fire without using Amaterasu could very much mean the black fire and Amaterasu are different, and we shouldn't assume we just cast Amaterasu because we don't actually see him do it. But I don't plan to make that argument.

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    • I don't think doujutsu was used off-panel. The last time around, Sasuke only even used Kagutsuchi and not Amaterasu beforehand, yet flames appeared in his hand.

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    • I still don't get it...? Blaze Release is still a chakra nature, it still is responsible for creating the black flames in Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi. It's just not an advanced nature, but a stronger Fire Release.

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    • I say it's no doujutsu because Amaterasu isn't the only way to "release" the black flames. Chapter 698, Sasuke's Rinnegan eye is defunct, he activates his Mangekyou and uses just "Kagutsuchi", there was no "Amaterasu" prior to that, meaning the source of the black flames was his hand, no differently than Chidori is used.

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    • Seelentau wrote: I'm not for removing it from the box, I'm just for removing it from the Kekkei Genkai section, because it's no Kekkei Genkai like Lava Release, for example.

      Alright. Just so we're clear, you're for removing it from the KKG section because it isn't an advanced nature created through simultaneous use of two basic elemental ones right? Despite the fact it's manifested through their Mangekyō, which is listed in their KKG sections?

      @Elve & @TU3, Chap. 464 confirmed that the flames of Amaterasu and the flames used for Kagutsuchi are the same flames. The ability to cast Amaterasu is one of Sasuke's Mangekyō powers. He obtained it from Itachi he uses his right eye for that. The ability to shape the black flames(Kagutsuchi) is his other ability, and he uses his left eye to do that. I see what Elve is saying, because I saw in a scan Sasuke use his left eye to shape the black flames in his left hand to combine with Naruto's RS. It was when they were fighting Jubi jin Obito. Nevertheless, they're ocular powers.

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    • In chapter 698 no left eye was used to cast the black flames because it was defunct.

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    • He doesn't need his left eye, obviously.

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    • Therefore Enton isn't doujutsu, because the right eye only shapes the flames, it doesn't cast them.

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    • Elveonora wrote: Therefore Enton isn't doujutsu, because the right eye only shapes the flames, it doesn't cast them.

      No matter how you look at it, Enton requires the Mangekyo Sharingan.

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    • He doesn't need his left eye to cast the flames, because he can cast them with his right eye.

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    • His left eye shapes the flames, the right eye casts them. The manga doesn't depict it clearly in that chapter but I know in the anime I saw him use his left to shape the black flames. You have to remember that Kagutsuchi and Amaterasu are two different techs, but utilize the same flames. Kagutsuchi is controled flames out of his left eye, while Amaterasu is wildfire that spreads uncontrollably.

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    • Seelentau wrote: He doesn't need his left eye to cast the flames, because he can cast them with his right eye.

      Probably with the right eye Sasuke can cast black flames only at very short range, while with the left he can cast them at long range. Sort of like the differences in range between the two Kamui.

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    • Does the Jin no Sho specify exactly what a KKG is? Because from everything I've read in the manga as well as heard in the anime is that KKG are abilities passed down genetically within specific clans, known as bloodline traits(Sharingan, Byakugan, etc). It's also to my understanding that dōjustu, abilities that work via users' eyes, classify as KKG. So knowing that Enton requires a Mangekyō Sharingan, a KKG bloodline trait, why does it not classify as a KKG despite it not being an advanced nature?

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    • Here's a couple more omissions for the list:

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    • That's bullshit and you know it. If his right eye could do everything his left can and some more, then there would be no reason to ever use Amaterasu with the left.

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    • Will we ever know? :D

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    • I find it far more reasonable that Enton ain't doujutsu rather than assumed "his right eye can do what the left can" we were told there's 1 tech per eye. Left casts them, the right shapes them, so the right both casting and shaping doesn't work.

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    • Elveonora wrote: I find it far more reasonable that Enton ain't doujutsu rather than assumed "his right eye can do what the left can" we were told there's 1 tech per eye. Left casts them, the right shapes them, so the right both casting and shaping doesn't work.

      You may be right that the right eye can't cast the black flames, but I fail to see Enton as a non-Mangekyo power.

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    • Both cast (because Blaze Release), one shapes, one doesn't. Maybe Amaterasu is stronger than Kagutsuchi? And Enton is no Dojutsu on its own (like the Sharingan), but it's used through a Dojutsu, so it's a Dojutsu by extension (like Tsukuyomi).

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    • JOA20 wrote: Probably with the right eye Sasuke can cast black flames only at very short range, while with the left he can cast them at long range. Sort of like the differences in range between the two Kamui.

      This makes actually makes sense. Could be that Kagutsuchi is short ranged, used close to one's body and can be shaped, and Amaterasu is long ranged and can target anything in one's eyesight (albeit cause the eye to bleed).

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    • Someone might have brought this up, but in the book under Gengetsu's affinity chart is the character for kekkei genkai and hiden, but Suigetsu only has hiden under his chart. I couldn't find anything in his entry that says he uses any kekkei genkai (which if there referring to one is a chakra nature kekkei genkai I assume).

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    • WindStar7125 wrote: @NoJutsu, you're saying Blaze Release shapes Amaterasu. Blaze Release is not what shapes Amaterasu. That's the fire nature. Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi shapes Amaterasu.

      I was just over generalizing, because Kagutsuchi (and its variant) was for me the only named technique that's under Blaze Release. Anyways, it's still not clear which part of the manga proves that Amaterasu is a Blaze Release Technique. Chapter 464 alone certainly doesn't do it. Is there another important chapter?

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    • Are the black flames released in BR:K and in Amaterasu the same?

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    • Seelentau wrote: Are the black flames released in BR:K and in Amaterasu the same?

      Can't persuade NoJutsu that. I've given up for a while.

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    • Well, it's actually quite easy:

      • Evidence 1: The black flames of BR:K are Amaterasu's flames, as stated in the databook.
      • Evidence 2: Sasuke can use Kagutsuchi without BR to control the flames, as stated in the manga.
      • Also: It's an elemental chakra nature, so there's something released with Blaze Release. Can you release Keitaihenka? No. Can you release black flames? Yes. According to E1, the black flames are Amaterasu's flames. Since the black flames are released through Blaze Release and are the flames of Amaterasu, it means that Amaterasu - which used the black flames - is Blaze Release.

      But I can imagine NoJutsu saying that there's no proof that the black flames are what is released with Blaze Release, because there's nothing that suggests it. The fact that Sasuke used Kagutsuchi on already released black flames doesn't count, of course.

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    • Well, we'll see how he responds to that. :)

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    • Seelentau wrote: Are the black flames released in BR:K and in Amaterasu the same?

      Of course, they're the same black flames. Below is my logic and why I still have doubts, so you won't all think that I'm intentionally playing tough nut with you guys for the lolz of it.

      Amaterasu's Release was introduced as Fire Release from day one. And Blaze Release was introduced as the thing that takes the black flames that Amaterasu produces and does much more with it. That should be a sign that Blaze is on a level above Fire where Amaterasu belongs. So I frankly want to understand why Amaterasu is Blaze.

      WindStar7125 wrote: Can't persuade NoJutsu that. I've given up for a while.

      This bone is not for the fainthearted XD.

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    • Seelentau wrote: Well, it's actually quite easy:

      Yeah... not so easy now, huh? XD

      NoJutsu wrote: This bone is not for the fainthearted XD.

      True, true. :P

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    • NoJutsu wrote:

      Amaterasu's Release was introduced as Fire Release from day one. And Blaze Release was introduced as the thing that takes the black flames that Amaterasu produces and does much more with it. That should be a sign that Blaze is on a level above Fire where Amaterasu belongs. So I frankly want to understand why Amaterasu is Blaze.

      Because Amaterasu uses the flames that are released through Blaze Release. And actually, it was Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi that was said to do much more with it, not Blaze Release alone. But since Sasuke used Kagutsuchi alone to manipulate the black flames, Blaze Release has to play a different part in the whole. And what could it do, other than manipulating the black flames? Correct: releasing them, because it's a release.

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    • @NoJutsu Amaterasu being introduced as a Fire Release was back in Part 1 of the series, so I fail to see how that's even relevant now. The only way you could possibly justify Amaterasu not being Blaze Release, is if you believe Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi utilizes different flames & that was obviously debunked in the Chap. 464. What more proof do you really need?

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    • Blaze Release is Fire Release.

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    • Seelentau wrote: Blaze Release is Fire Release.

      The truth and a half.

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    • I take a small break from the holidays (and the grueling event that is finals week) and come back to this shitstorm. Happy Christmas to you guys too.

      But what really tops this thread off for me is that some (nameless) individuals, who were whining about how the databook would set everything straight, are now the ones wanting to burn it like it burned their fanfiction. The Blaze Release argument is still going on, I see. Though, I do have to applaud NoJutsu. For having to argue with Elveonora (and just about everyone else) and keep your cool throughout, all while making astoundingly accurate points... whew. Where have you been all my wiki-life?

      I'm not about to ruin my mood with an argument, but I will say this: This databook proves we didn't know anything about Blaze Release, so I don't know why Tau, Windy, Elve, and Minamoto continue to proclaim they do. You don't. None of us do. Amaterasu was stated to be Fire Release from the very beginning and continues to be listed as such (as has the Blaze Release techniques, as far as the databooks go). Its actually one of the few things Kishi has been consistent with, yet we tried to argue to the contrary. Just admit that you don't know anything about Blaze Release. You don't. I don't. The only one who does is Kishi. The most we can do is record what we do know, which is that it is all Fire Release, regardless of Sasuke's fancy title, and move on.

      Now if you all will excuse me, I have already devoured three weeks of an Advent calendar and intend to finish the rest.

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    • WindStar7125
      WindStar7125 removed this reply because:
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    • Seelentau wrote: Because Amaterasu uses the flames that are released through Blaze Release. And actually, it was Blaze Release: Kagutsuchi that was said to do much more with it, not Blaze Release alone. But since Sasuke used Kagutsuchi alone to manipulate the black flames, Blaze Release has to play a different part in the whole. And what could it do, other than manipulating the black flames? Correct: releasing them, because it's a release.

      Is this the first time a technique is displayed without its Release prefix? I think I've seen Rasenshuriken branded without the Fuuton prefix, but that doesn't mean Fuuton was not in it. My doubts linger mainly because I don't know how the databook really associated Blaze Release with Fire Release. Is it the Kagutsuchi technique that got linked to Fire Release, or was it the black flames? BTW Blaze Release releases Blaze, duuh.

      Minamoto15 wrote: @NoJutsu Amaterasu being introduced as a Fire Release was back in Part 1 of the series, so I fail to see how that's even relevant now. The only way you could possibly justify Amaterasu not being Blaze Release, is if you believe Amaterasu and Kagutsuchi utilizes different flames & that was obviously debunked in the Chap. 464. What more proof do you really need?

      A perfect line of logic without lacuna. BTW, Amaterasu only became tagged with Fire Release around 2008; that's deep in part 2.

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    • NoJutsu wrote: A perfect line of logic without lacuna. BTW, Amaterasu only became tagged with Fire Release around 2008; that's deep in part 2.

      You not entirely correct. From beginning Amaterasu was fire in manga and databook. In manga Jiraiya used highest fire seal to deal with Amaterasu and databook stated that it is highest fire technique. I wasn't here at time but i presume this rant about Ama and Blaze began only with Kage summit. Manga and databooks always treated all black flames as fire. Latest instance Naruto's and Sasuke Shakuton: Kōrin Shippū Shikkoku no Ya Zeroshiki when Naruto mentions that only wind can power up fire.

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    • Rage gtx wrote:

      NoJutsu wrote: A perfect line of logic without lacuna. BTW, Amaterasu only became tagged with Fire Release around 2008; that's deep in part 2.

      You not entirely correct. From beginning Amaterasu was fire in manga and databook. In manga Jiraiya used highest fire seal to deal with Amaterasu and databook stated that it is highest fire technique. I wasn't here at time but i presume this rant about Ama and Blaze began only with Kage summit. Manga and databooks always treated all black flames as fire. Latest instance Naruto's and Sasuke Shakuton: Kōrin Shippū Shikkoku no Ya Zeroshiki when Naruto mentions that only wind can power up fire.

      Ahh, thanks. I forgot about Jiraiya's fire sealing tech. It was around 2009, when the first rounds of the 3rd db translations by pazu and shounensuki where surfacing, that I learned Amaterasu was Fire Release... so I assumed it only recent knowledge then. To reiterate, I know black flames is Fire Release.

      Jigsaw Billy wrote: Someone might have brought this up, but in the book under Gengetsu's affinity chart is the character for kekkei genkai and hiden, but Suigetsu only has hiden under his chart. I couldn't find anything in his entry that says he uses any kekkei genkai (which if there referring to one is a chakra nature kekkei genkai I assume).

      Yeah, that's kekkei genkai. Nice catch.

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    • What I don't understand is this. Naruto is 145.3cm at 12, 147.5 at 13, and it is shown he is 166cm at 15, and then it is shown that he grows more after that, http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-597-page-3.html not to mention Chiyo clearly says he grew taller when she sees him in the war, as shown here http://www.mangastream.to/naruto-chapter-559-page-11.html so it makes me think WHY does nobody at all have new physical stats in DB4 at least? It is shown that everyone grew in shippuden at least once after shippuden started, so Naruto either grew to 166cm when he turned 16, or he grew FROM 166cm to a higher height soon after turning 16. Everyone in the series who was not an adult already grew. It just boggles me how the new DB's don't cover these obvious changes.

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    • I think Kishi wanted to get other stuff out of the way like elemental nature wish granting and what not. I guess his superiors gave him an ultimatium. Remeber each page printed costs. They may have wanted the info mve to a later databook or felt that it is not worth it at all with the story time skipping all over the place.

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    • Yeah well I hope the last 2 databooks that will most likely come out will have one covering the last chapters that db4 didn't cover and one covering everything else.

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    • NoJutsu wrote:

      Rage gtx wrote:

      NoJutsu wrote: A perfect line of logic without lacuna. BTW, Amaterasu only became tagged with Fire Release around 2008; that's deep in part 2.

      You not entirely correct. From beginning Amaterasu was fire in manga and databook. In manga Jiraiya used highest fire seal to deal with Amaterasu and databook stated that it is highest fire technique. I wasn't here at time but i presume this rant about Ama and Blaze began only with Kage summit. Manga and databooks always treated all black flames as fire. Latest instance Naruto's and Sasuke Shakuton: Kōrin Shippū Shikkoku no Ya Zeroshiki when Naruto mentions that only wind can power up fire.

      Ahh, thanks. I forgot about Jiraiya's fire sealing tech. It was around 2009, when the first rounds of the 3rd db translations by pazu and shounensuki where surfacing, that I learned Amaterasu was Fire Release... so I assumed it only recent knowledge then. To reiterate, I know black flames is Fire Release.

      Jigsaw Billy wrote: Someone might have brought this up, but in the book under Gengetsu's affinity chart is the character for kekkei genkai and hiden, but Suigetsu only has hiden under his chart. I couldn't find anything in his entry that says he uses any kekkei genkai (which if there referring to one is a chakra nature kekkei genkai I assume).

      Yeah, that's kekkei genkai. Nice catch.

      But what is his kekkei genkai, we only see him use his clan based techniques and Steaming Danger Tyranny?

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    • Jigsaw Billy wrote: But what is his kekkei genkai, we only see him use his clan based techniques and Steaming Danger Tyranny?

      Boil Release maybe? )

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    • Rage gtx wrote:

      Jigsaw Billy wrote: But what is his kekkei genkai, we only see him use his clan based techniques and Steaming Danger Tyranny?

      Boil Release maybe? )

      That or Lava Release since the latter has been used by three separate people who came from different villages with no relation to one another.

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    • Ascha'Vovina
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    • A FANDOM user
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