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  • They say its equal in power with Rinnegan but all it does is basically give you a chakra mode with TSB. It says Toneri is as strong as Madara while using the dojutsu but Madara can overwhelm a Sage Tailed Beast Mode. Does anyone agree with me that Rinnegan seems to be stronger and Toneri isn't as powerful as Madara while using Tenseigan? A thousand years to get to rinnegan level while Madara's only decades and Sasuke's instantly. If they Meant as strong as EMS Madara then i agree but Rinnegan Madara i disagree.

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    • did ems madara cut the moon in half did he have truth seeking balls it took madara two life times to get to that level

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    • Yeah but i read an article saying that the Otsutsuki Clan built a weapon that would one day be used on Humanity for weaponizing chakra. Toneri used that weapon on the moon. He didn't do that using Tenseigan.. It took a thousand years for someone from Otsutuski clan to get to atleast rinnegan level lol took sasuke not even a day lol xD

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    • what does that have to do with it being as strong as the rinnegan

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    • It's kind of hard to tell for me. I don't believe the Tenseigan was used to its full ability. I also believe Toneri isn't up to par with Madara skill wise. Basically if someone as skilled as Madara possessed the Tenseigan, then maybe we can put them on equal terms of power. But I do agree, Rinnegan Madara is stronger than Tenseigan Toneri.

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    • you mean god tree Madara is stronger than Toneri. Rinnegan Madara didnt have the bijuus or the truth seeking balls he gained those after he became a Juubi jin, where as with the Tenseigan they come chakra mode with Truth Seeking Ball

      Rinnegan Madara lost to Edo Hashirama.

      Rinnegan only Madara compared to Toneri and i think you'll get your answer

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    • Toneri's Tenseigan is as strong as the Rinnegan? In my eyes (no pun intended), yes. Maybe even more. The Rinnegan is Hagoromo's power. The Byakugan is Hamura's power, and the Tenseigan is even beyond that.

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    • Until I see the movie, I'll say Madara's Rinnegan is little bit stronger than Toneri's Tenseigan for right now. I'll come back to this later once I see Toneri and his Tenseigan in action.

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    • JOA20 wrote: Toneri's Tenseigan is as strong as the Rinnegan? In my eyes (no pun intended), yes. Maybe even more. The Rinnegan is Hagoromo's power. The Byakugan is Hamura's power, and the Tenseigan is even beyond that.

      No just no.

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    • well it was "stated" both Tenseigan and Rinnegan are equally compared in strength and power

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    • Rinnegan Madara as in rinne tensei resurrected. I mean if u compare Tenseigan techniques and Rinnegan techniques, rinnegan basically is stronger. Rinnegan Madara has Perfect Susanoo, Six Path technique, Wood Release, Limbo: Border Jail, and Chakra Distruption Blades while Tenseigan Toneri has a chakra mode with TSB and still lost to Naruto lol Im going to have to go with Uchiha Madara.

      TrueAlphaJ wrote: Rinnegan Madara didnt have the bijuus or the truth seeking balls he gained those after he became a Juubi jin.

      Actually When Madara absorbed Senjutsu Chakra from Hashirama, He could've made TSB but then i guess decided not to. Cause all you really need is 5 Elements, Yin-yang release, and six path Sage Chakra.

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    • Haxs wrote:

      Actually When Madara absorbed Senjutsu Chakra from Hashirama, He could've made TSB but then i guess decided not to. Cause all you really need is 5 Elements, Yin-yang release, and six path Sage Chakra.

      Senjutsu =/= Six Paths Sage Chakra

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    • Haxs wrote: Rinnegan Madara as in rinne tensei resurrected. I mean if u compare Tenseigan techniques and Rinnegan techniques, rinnegan basically is stronger. Rinnegan Madara has Perfect Susanoo, Six Path technique, Wood Release, Limbo: Border Jail, and Chakra Distruption rod while Tenseigan Toneri has a chakra mode with TSB and still lost to Naruto lol Im going to have to go with Uchiha Madara.

      TrueAlphaJ wrote: Rinnegan Madara didnt have the bijuus or the truth seeking balls he gained those after he became a Juubi jin.

      Actually When Madara absorbed Senjutsu Chakra from Hashirama, He could've made TSB but then i guess decided not to. Cause all you really need is 5 Elements, Yin-yang release, and six path Sage Chakra.

      none of what youve listed = cutting the moon in half

      yes he did loose to bsm naruto the thing youre not getting is that this naruto is one that has had two years to train/ perfect his abilities the one we saw in the war was imperfect/untrained something he just gained rinne tensei madara the one that needed the gedo to fight the tailed beast the one that shukaku and gaara almost defeated the one that needed more random power ups the minute he came back alive come on

      i stopped over hyping madara the minute i went and take a good look at his chracter development and powers

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    • Madara(10 tails jinchuriki with two eyes) is stronger than toneri(tenseigan),because he has a huge amount of chakra,actually we did not see madara's full abilities because black zetsu did not allow that,in my opinion if we see madara's initial abilities,(multiple chibaku tensei) it's very clear that madara has in level of hogoromo or i think slight stronger because he awaken the rinne sharingan before black zetsu backstabed him.

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    • How would you know if Toneri doesn't have a huge chakra reserve on par with Madara?. You wouldn't know that. If Toneri had the capabilities of bringing destruction via cutting the moon up , I don't see how Madara could have avoided that. If the story is to say that Tenseigan is on par with Rinnegan, I don't see how others can prove otherwise. Just move along ...

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    • how i see the god tier chars list:

      madara (with rinnegan, rinne sharingan, sinju tree, juubi) > kaguya > madara (rinnegan, juubi, sinju tree) > so6p (rinnegan, juubi) >= madara (rinnegan, juubi) >= obito (rinnegan, juubi) >= sasuke (rinnegan, bijuu-patchwork juubi) > madara (rinnegan) >= so6p (rinnegan) >= sasuke (rinnegan) >= naruto so6p-mode >= toneri (tenseigan, trained) > naruto BSM(BM) mode >= sasuke EMS > naruto KM....

      so... i think that toneri is on par with normal rinnegan madara, but all the other stuff makes him far above him ^_^

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    • TrueAlphaJ wrote: none of what youve listed = cutting the moon in half

      lol Toneri didn't do that to the moon with Tenseigan or any of his abilities, he wa able to do that cause of the ancient weapon of the otsutsuki clan. lololol

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    • I do believe though that Rinne Sharingan Madara could be more powerful than Kaguya.

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    • Haxs wrote: I do believe though that Rinne Sharingan Madara could be more powerful than Kaguya.

      yu, since kaguya and madara are practically similar in pure power but kaguya has the IQ of a stone ^_^

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    • GreatestSin wrote: how i see the god tier chars list:

      madara (with rinnegan, rinne sharingan, sinju tree, juubi) > kaguya > madara (rinnegan, juubi, sinju tree) > so6p (rinnegan, juubi) >= madara (rinnegan, juubi) >= obito (rinnegan, juubi) >= sasuke (rinnegan, bijuu-patchwork juubi) > madara (rinnegan) >= so6p (rinnegan) >= sasuke (rinnegan) >= naruto so6p-mode >= toneri (tenseigan, trained) > naruto BSM(BM) mode >= sasuke EMS > naruto KM....

      Madara isn't stronger than Kaguya

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    • Haxs wrote:

      TrueAlphaJ wrote: none of what youve listed = cutting the moon in half

      lol Toneri didn't do that to the moon with Tenseigan or any of his abilities, he wa able to do that cause of the ancient weapon of the otsutsuki clan. lololol

      He creates a giant chakra sword using his Tenseigan Chakra Mode.

      Toneri awakening the Tenseigan is no different from Madara awakening the Rinnegan or becoming Ten Tails' Jinchuriki. Madara wasn't born with those powers.

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    • They both got the powers out of unnatural means.Toneri would be given the thumbs up to have his own Byakugan as if never sealed, and Madara would only have Mangekyo Sharingan. EMS, Wood Release, and Rinnegan are not natural occurrences and neither is Tenseigan.

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    • This is off topic, but how come Naruto didn't sh*t on Toneri with Six Paths Sage Mode? Did he lose it and how? It was said by Hagoromo himself that the tailed beasts' chakras would remain inside in, and that when Kurama becomes whole again he will supervise "meetings" in Naruto.

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    • I want to know if Hanabi regained her eyes because this villain stole her eyes because a Hyuga without her eyes is literally useless because they depend on this bloodline a great deal for everything they do just take the power of Sasuke's eyes, and he is nothing without them.

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    • Hinata rips her eyes out of Toneri's head, she gets her eyes back thanks to her big sister.

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    • ItachiWasAHero wrote: They both got the powers out of unnatural means.Toneri would be given the thumbs up to have his own Byakugan as if never sealed, and Madara would only have Mangekyo Sharingan. EMS, Wood Release, and Rinnegan are not natural occurrences and neither is Tenseigan.

      Well getting the Mangekyo Sharingan is a natural occurrence. Your point is still valid though

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    • Here's my two cents: Naruto with Six Paths Sage Mode PLUS Sasuke with Rinnegan were enough to match Madara (I believe they eventually would've defeated him, but unfortunately that can't be proven). Yet just Naruto with Kurama Chakra Mode plus Sage Mode overwhelmed Toneri (and I don't even think he was using full Kurama Mode).

      Also, a question: Is it confirmed yet why exactly Naruto doesn't use Six Paths Sage Mode in the movie? I heard he gets it stolen by Toneri early on, but none of the summaries seem to support this.

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    • @UltimaDude the Eternal Mangekyo is not natural as it takes another uchiha blood relatives Mangekyo being transplanted to awaken. The highest an Uchiha can go naturally is Mangekyo Sharingan.

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    • UltimaDude wrote: Madara isn't stronger than Kaguya

      i think he would have been since he awakened kaguya's power and had more experience and skills.

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    • Madara did not have as much chakra as her, Byakugan, All-killing Ash Bones, or her Dimension abilities but even still without those I think Madara would have eventually won in a fight against her.. I mean with both of his Rinnegan and Rinne-Sharingan him from the moment before he was used... I don't think Naruto and Sasuke would have won, hence why they used him to bring out Kaguya, a less battle experienced person who does not use ninjutsu or ninshu.

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    • ScruffyC wrote: Yet just Naruto with Kurama Chakra Mode plus Sage Mode overwhelmed Toneri (and I don't even think he was using full Kurama Mode).

      It looks more like the opposite, actually. Toneri was having an easy game against Naruto until Hinata somehow helped the latter.

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    • Doesn't Retsu no Sho say that it is basically the same as Six Paths Sage Mode??

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    • ItachiWasAHero wrote: Madara did not have as much chakra as her, Byakugan, All-killing Ash Bones, or her Dimension abilities but even still without those I think Madara would have eventually won in a fight against her.. I mean with both of his Rinnegan and Rinne-Sharingan him from the moment before he was used... I don't think Naruto and Sasuke would have won, hence why they used him to bring out Kaguya, a less battle experienced person who does not use ninjutsu or ninshu.

      Didn't all those u mentioned come from the Rinne Sharingan? lol didn't all technique come from that third eye?

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    • Haxs wrote: Didn't all those u mentioned come from the Rinne Sharingan? lol didn't all technique come from that third eye?

      Only Amenominaka was stated to come from the Rinne Sharingan, the others are seemingly unique to Kaguya.

      ItachiWasAHero wrote: Doesn't Retsu no Sho say that it is basically the same as Six Paths Sage Mode??

      Yes, with Truth-Seeking Balls too. However it's unknown wheter Tenseigan Chakra Mode requires senjutsu or not.

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    • JOA20
      JOA20 removed this reply because:
      dp
      10:57, December 20, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • good to see that others agree with my powerlist ^_^

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    • I mean with both of his Rinnegan and Rinne-Sharingan him from the moment before he was used... I don't think Naruto and Sasuke would have won, hence why they used him to bring out Kaguya, a less battle experienced person who does not use ninjutsu or ninshu.

      Who are you refering to as they. Naruto and Sasuke ?. Coz according to the story, they didn't do jackshyt to bring Kaguya out. Furthermore how would you know if Madara knows of such a skill as Amenominaka with the Rinne Sharingan . He hasn't experienced that skill before. Only Kaguya did. To me , bringing out the 3rd eye doesn't make much of a difference unless he knows what skills he's able to use.Duh...

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    • Aki174 wrote: Who are you refering to as they. Naruto and Sasuke ?. Coz according to the story, they didn't do jackshyt to bring Kaguya out. Furthermore how would you know if Madara knows of such a skill as Amenominaka with the Rinne Sharingan . He hasn't experienced that skill before. Only Kaguya did. To me , bringing out the 3rd eye doesn't make much of a difference unless he knows what skills he's able to use.Duh...

      1, reason why madara > kaguya, he had a IQ bigger than that of a stone ^_^ and powerlvl wise they have been roughly equal...

      btw, for the point "he didnt know", im pretty sure he would have imply used it without any explanation, afterall naruto and sasuke used skills which they also didnt train and had knowledge about (like the rasengan-versions/the teleport-jutsu)

      2. im pretty sure that "they" refers to kishi and aybe his team which planned the story, since they saw that madara was imposible to beat without super-mega-as*pulls, they (kishi + team) created kaguya... hope it answers your question...

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    • They as in Kishi, his writers, and black zetsu. Come on man its not that hard to figure out.. also amenominaka is stated to come with the Rinne Sharingan so yes Madara would of been able to use it, if Sasuke could automatically use his new rinnegan jutsu than Madara would of been able to too. Also GreatestSin, if you refer to chakra levels when you use the dbz term "power level" then no, Sasuke and Naruto both confirmed Kaguya had more chakra than Madara by a good margin.

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    • ItachiWasAHero wrote: They as in Kishi, his writers, and black zetsu. Come on man its not that hard to figure out.. also amenominaka is stated to come with the Rinne Sharingan so yes Madara would of been able to use it, if Sasuke could automatically use his new rinnegan jutsu than Madara would of been able to too. Also GreatestSin, if you refer to chakra levels when you use the dbz term "power level" then no, Sasuke and Naruto both confirmed Kaguya had more chakra than Madara by a good margin.

      ah, sorry, i didnt mean chakra, i used powerlvl as in "their overall ability minus the brain", and even with more chakra i still give it to madara, he at least would be able to use his ability without them backfiring at himself ^_^

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    • Rinne Sharingan Madara vs Kaguya, Madara would have won.

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    • i agree with haxs,because madara is more intelligent than kaguya alone,even kaguya is more powerful than madara,I think this why black zetsu stabbed madara after he cast the infinite tsukoyomi for him to not discover the other abilities of rinne sharingan.

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    • In my personal opinion... I think we are basing Rinnegan to be more powerful because we have seen the full extent of its powers.

      Tenseigan Toneri is as powerful as EMS/Edo-Rinnegan Madara since Madara as a Edo Tensei was battling a Yang Kurama Chakra Mode Naruto (minus Sage Mode) on a near even level.

      Also Madara stated, unless the original user uses the eyes. You will never awaken its full power and both eyes have to be together to achieves it full potential.

      Only exception to the original Eyes rule is the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan. However we do not know its true process of exchanging eyes otherwise it would be logical for Izuna and Itachi to gain it. One can assume that the original eye has to be pushed to the limit before taking the eyes and powers of a relative and achieving even greater power in the form of the EMS.

      In this case Toneri ability are limited just like Nagato using Madara's Rinnegan and being restricted to Six Path Technique. If Toneri had his original eye then things might have been different and he might be able to use more of the Tenseigan's true power.

      Alternatively the Tenseigan might work by exchanging eyes like the EMS in which case had Hinata or Hanabi exchanged eyes and awaken the ability of the Tenseigan then in all likelihood they would be on the level of revived Rinnegan Madara.

      Either way Toneri's ability are at the level of pre-Rinne Tensei Madara with his single Rinnegan.

      Also to further add on... if Toneri had been the original owner of the eyes he might have had unique abilities like Madara's Limbo: Border Jail and Sasuke's Short Warping and Kaguya's Dimensional Powers. So in this sense Tenseigan Chakra Mode is just a basic ability just like the Six Path Technique.

      Also Naruto wasn't using Six Path Sage Mode because if I remember correctly... Kurama wasn't inside him for some reason... (He was having his own battle outside Naruto) so Naruto was limited to using Complete Kurama Chakra Mode + Sage Mode rather than his Six Path Sage Mode.

      Another factor could be that Toneri doesnt have the experience nor the time to get accustomed to his new eyes and powers... Rinne-Sasuke with his newly awakened eye required the help of Rikudo-Naruto to fight Jubi-Madara evenly not to mention Naruto did more of the physical fighting and even after fighting the war for essentially 24 hours and then dealing with Kaguya mainly by himself and fighting Sasuke for yet another full day and remaining conscious at the end... Naruto is by far the most strongest in the series... if anything Toneri is on the level of Sasuke with his yet fully Matured Rinnegan and Madara as his edo tensei form which explains why he was evenly matched again a Kurama Mode Naruto.

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    • Well I think we should at first look at the posibilities from where the tenseigan gains it's powers: tenseigan is a artificialy enhanced byakugan, now we know that the byakugan has expertiese with channeling tenketsu chakra in spacific forms; now the tenseigan must have some similiar power, now since it must have something to do with tenketsu and it's known that it has a lot of power I asume that the tenseigan can control all the power from every tenketsu in the body, that would means that toneri was at the level of 8 gates gai, who was on par with juubi jinchuriki madara, well that's my current view of the whole tenseigan theory.

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    • I hate to disappoint everybody here but Madara as a villain is more powerful than the guy in the movie seriously because it took Sasuke and Naruto working together to beat him, and I am sorry this villain can't compare to Madara because Madara as a whole is a more skilled and powerful Ninja than both Sasuke and Naruto remember Madara is the founder of the Uchiha Clan, and the only person that can beat him in terms of power and skill is Hashirama in terms of skill and battle experience.

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    • 2 years have passed and naruto always trains hard no one knows exactly how strong he is right now, the punch he defeated toneri with was a knew tech. Remember in the fight with kayuga (strongest character) when fodder sasuke was trapped in the other dimension naruto was fighting kayuga on his own and was holding his own against the strongest character with absolutely no help, sasuke, Sakura and kakashi basically only helped in sealing her.

      Points to note: 1. A severely weakened naruto was > than a powered up sasuke. 2. Has both halves of Kuruma now. 3. He has had two years to train with 100% kyubi.

      Is so unbelievable to think he could defeat someone at madara level now.

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    • Naruto has full Kurama plus he has been upgraded with Hashirama cells from the arm implant. So his chakra is now even larger and more powerful than before, plus his healing has been boosted

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    • @ItachiWasAHero, exactly I forgot about the hashirama upgrade totally agree.

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    • Sasuke also has Hashirama cells and upgrade, from when Kabuto used Hashi cells and his own flesh and dna together, to rebuild Sasuke's heart. So Sasuke is now basically everything Kabuto is, plus he has Hashirama DNA and chakra. I keep saying I think he awakened a Special Rinnegan because he already was about to awaken the normal Rinnegan, and then Hagoromo gave him half of his chakra, therefor changing the Rinnegan into the 6 tomoe Rinnegan.

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    • ItachiWasAHero wrote: Sasuke also has Hashirama cells and upgrade, from when Kabuto used Hashi cells and his own flesh and dna together, to rebuild Sasuke's heart. So Sasuke is now basically everything Kabuto is, plus he has Hashirama DNA and chakra. I keep saying I think he awakened a Special Rinnegan because he already was about to awaken the normal Rinnegan, and then Hagoromo gave him half of his chakra, therefor changing the Rinnegan into the 6 tomoe Rinnegan.

      oe he did it thanks to his "potential" which after orochimaru is bbigger than that of madara, and madara had awakened the rinnegan, since sasuke has a bigger potential he awakened the "sharinnegan" (NOT rinne-sharingan) ^_^

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    • I held Tenseigan Toneri was able to use the 6 path techniques like Shinra Tensei...

      So in that regards he is as powerful as Rinnegan Madara but no more powerful than Madara with Juubi sealed in him.

      Thus why Naruto and him had a rather even fighter because Biju Naruto was able to fight Edo-Tensei Madara roughly on par

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    • I think that Madara exp in combat is also a big factor here , bec he was fighting nearly his whole life About the Naruto vs Toneri you can see whole fight here http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2dumdw_the-last-naruto-movie-pelicula-sub-espanol-hd_shortfilms?start=2768

      quality is bad and got so Español Sub but you can watch it there also others important scenes here (such us hinata memories from 4.51 to 9.30 , Naruto professes love for Hinata 21 .31 , the whole kiss scene which is right after the fight scene , and scene after the wedding  ) {sorry for bad eng }
      
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    • AkiraNasuki wrote: I held Tenseigan Toneri was able to use the 6 path techniques like Shinra Tensei...

      He used something similar (19.53 video in my previous comment ).

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    • There is no comparison between Madara and Toneri because Madara's experience in combat, and how skilled he is makes a huge difference to him no comparison between Madara and Toneri.

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    • Madara captured all Biju in what 3 minutes with the extraction of Gyūki(Hachibi) and Kurama (Kyūbi) away from their Jinchūrikis.I personally hate Madara so much bec of his character,and i think he was too op .

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    • The villain in the movie is nothing like Madara there is no comparison to someone as dangerous as Madara because I have more respect and fear for Madara than this guy because Madara can be utterly ruthless because I like villains that have no compassion, and are brutal in their methods.

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    • It isn't as simple as the eyes being more powerful.

      Dojutsu can't be described as power levels, each one enables certain abilities. Kaguya's complete dojutsu was split up and eventually divided among her children and subsequently her ancestors, each dojutsu variant has some abilities of Kaguya's complete dojutsu.

      The rest of the power equation is entirely up to the owner of the Dojutsu, and how well they can use the Dojutus. Sasuke was able to use his Rinnegan immediately as he has not only used the Sharingan to it's highest levels for his whole life, but he received the Rinnegan from the Sage so he probably received the innate ability to control it too.

      Madara was also the reincarnation of Indra, giving him not only Indra's chakra, but his immense Dojutsu prowess. He was the only person to awaken the Rinnegan besides the Sage of the Six Paths (and Indra?). So basically, Madara is WAYYYY more powerful than Toneri.

      How about the fact that Naruto beat Toneri with just his Tailed Beast Mode? while it took a SPSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke to beat Madara.

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    • There is no comparison between Toneri and Madara because it took both Sasuke and Naruto to beat him remember who Madara is in terms of battle ability and experience he simply overwhelms Toneri in all departments, and he is more ruthless than Toneri really is.

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    • Otaku4469 wrote: I hate to disappoint everybody here but Madara as a villain is more powerful than the guy in the movie seriously because it took Sasuke and Naruto working together to beat him, and I am sorry this villain can't compare to Madara because Madara as a whole is a more skilled and powerful Ninja than both Sasuke and Naruto remember Madara is the founder of the Uchiha Clan, and the only person that can beat him in terms of power and skill is Hashirama in terms of skill and battle experience.

      I hate to dissapoint you, but no Madara is not the founder of the Uchiha clan. That title goes to Indra. Madara was, however, the leader of the Uchiha clan. That's the only thing I had to point out with your post. I agree with you for the most part on everything else.

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    • You guys are making arguements without looking at important factors you need to be ignoring.

      1. Read the statement black and white. Tenseigan = Rinnegan in power. Tenseigan Toneri = Rinnegan Madara in ""power"". - No where does it mention skill, experience, or enhancements Madara recieved before he wielded Rinnegan. Toneri can be as powerful as madara and lose everytime because madara is more experienced and skilled. Madara would beat toneri not because he 'overpowered' him like when he faced the 5 kage, but because he was more skilled. Closer to naruto vs sasuke but with a winner.

      2. The Madara that fought Naruto and sasuke was not the same mandara he was when he unlocked the rinnegan or even the same one when he was first reincarnated back to life. " Kabuto Yakushi modified Madara to be "beyond his physical and combat prime"" So we know even with hashirama's dna and the rinnegan that kabuto made him more powerful than even that. Then include the sage chakra absorbed from hashirama to further enhance him too and you have a totally different madara than simply madara wielding rinnegan. Remember, doesn't mention a 10-tails hosted Madara.

      3. The tailed beast mode sage enhanced form naruto used against toneri was more powerful than the one used against madara. Naruto only used yin or yang before but against toneri, kurama was fully formed and we cannot say with facts he was twice as powerful by any means, but we can say he was more powerful. This last bit is debatable but, 10 years after the ten-tails event, and with that event itself under naruto's bet, don't you think naruto has at least honed his skills more if not gotten more skilled, powerful, and wiser as a shinobi verse the naruto that faced madara?

      Leave out skill, experience, and enhancements not mentioned. Black and white: Tenseiga Rinnegan in power. Tenseigan Toneri = Rinnegan Madara in ""power"".

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    • It is 2 years after that this movie takes place.. chapter 700 takes place 10 or more years after the war ends.

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    • I saw raw copy of the film yesterday.

      The comparison being made by everyone is basically based on Jubi Madara.

      Toneri is as strong as Pain and Rinnegan Madara (WITHOUT TEN TAILS) Toneri was about to use Shinra Tensei and Basho Tennin (possibly all the 6 paths technique) and create chakra orbs to control people like the chakra rods used for the 6 paths of pain technique.

      Being a descendant of Hamura, Toneri's chakra possesses special qualities that can counter those of Hagoromo, basically using the orbs he can absorb Hagoromo's chakra and detect it within someone.

      Over using the eyes lead to him awakening the chakra mode of Tenseigan and the Truth Sphere giving him comparable powers to Naruto and Madara.

      Madara was only over powered because he had the benefit of an undying body otherwise the Gokage could have defeated him as well as Naruto in his Tail Beast Mode. Even Guy would have defeat Madara but the Ten Tails regenerative powers were too great.

      Toneri's Chakra mode is likely the same as Six Path Sage mode, Naruto's Kurama Sage Mode was more than enough to deal with Toneri because lacks the large chakra reserve from Ten Tails and the benefits of Edo Tensei and EMS that Madara possess. Either way Toneri is as strong as Madara and Nagato. Though bare in mind if it had been in terms of Manga and not a movie... we would have had 20~40 chapters just building on more of his abilities and powers to make him over powered...

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    • A raw copy? Can you give me a link please?

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    • AkiraNasuki wrote: I saw raw copy of the film yesterday.

      The comparison being made by everyone is basically based on Jubi Madara.

      Toneri is as strong as Pain and Rinnegan Madara (WITHOUT TEN TAILS) Toneri was about to use Shinra Tensei and Basho Tennin (possibly all the 6 paths technique) and create chakra orbs to control people like the chakra rods used for the 6 paths of pain technique.

      Being a descendant of Hamura, Toneri's chakra possesses special qualities that can counter those of Hagoromo, basically using the orbs he can absorb Hagoromo's chakra and detect it within someone.

      Over using the eyes lead to him awakening the chakra mode of Tenseigan and the Truth Sphere giving him comparable powers to Naruto and Madara.

      Madara was only over powered because he had the benefit of an undying body otherwise the Gokage could have defeated him as well as Naruto in his Tail Beast Mode. Even Guy would have defeat Madara but the Ten Tails regenerative powers were too great.

      Toneri's Chakra mode is likely the same as Six Path Sage mode, Naruto's Kurama Sage Mode was more than enough to deal with Toneri because lacks the large chakra reserve from Ten Tails and the benefits of Edo Tensei and EMS that Madara possess. Either way Toneri is as strong as Madara and Nagato. Though bare in mind if it had been in terms of Manga and not a movie... we would have had 20~40 chapters just building on more of his abilities and powers to make him over powered...

      How was the movie?

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    • I still give the edge to Madara over Toneri because he doesn't frightem me at all like Madara, and his skills and battle experience are greater than both Naruto and Sasuke in fact it was proven in how easily he killed Sasuke, and he was far more ruthless and intelligent.

      I would fear Madara more than Toneri if this was a fight for all the marbles never underestimate this man.

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    • Seelentau wrote: A raw copy? Can you give me a link please?

      45 min cam recorded raw it can't get any more raw than this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMuANi0pWbM

      English sub https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RklaO2XvDIw

      You might be better off waiting unless you want to skim through it for spoilers.

      @Justin Holland It's how should I put it... different. I can understand where the reviewers say its a genuine love story and for Toneri... he has the potential to rival Madara but he just isn't given the time to show it like the Anime and Manga. Its like here Toneri, then climatic battle... THE END

      Its more or less an anime episode... if this had been a cannon arc for the anime it might have been better since they can give Toneri more character development and expand on the Romance side... though as a Romance film it was great to see Naruto finally coming to terms with his feelings for Hinata which is rather sweet though i'm not sure how this will fair for the boys who love shonen action and battles.

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    • AkiraNasuki wrote:

      Seelentau wrote: A raw copy? Can you give me a link please?

      45 min cam recorded raw it can't get any more raw than this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMuANi0pWbM

      English sub https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RklaO2XvDIw

      You might be better off waiting unless you want to skim through it for spoilers.

      @Justin Holland It's how should I put it... different. I can understand where the reviewers say its a genuine love story and for Toneri... he has the potential to rival Madara but he just isn't given the time to show it like the Anime and Manga. Its like here Toneri, then climatic battle... THE END

      Its more or less an anime episode... if this had been a cannon arc for the anime it might have been better since they can give Toneri more character development and expand on the Romance side... though as a Romance film it was great to see Naruto finally coming to terms with his feelings for Hinata which is rather sweet though i'm not sure how this will fair for the boys who love shonen action and battles.

      Kishi said it was a love story, but other than that was it good?

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    • AkiraNasuki wrote:

      Seelentau wrote: A raw copy? Can you give me a link please?

      45 min cam recorded raw it can't get any more raw than this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMuANi0pWbM

      English sub https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RklaO2XvDIw

      I really wouldn't call that a "raw copy" of the film. It's 45 minutes of footage taken from various sources, most of which is out of order. The full movie is 112 minutes long, so that's more than a full hour of stuff it's missing.

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    • Yeah, I wouldn't recommend to watch that.

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    • I can't wait when they release the official Movie in the US because I want to see how popular is going to be when it is ordered.

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    • FF-Suzaku wrote: I really wouldn't call that a "raw copy" of the film. It's 45 minutes of footage taken from various sources, most of which is out of order. The full movie is 112 minutes long, so that's more than a full hour of stuff it's missing.

      Its a raw of a raw... its better than nothing for spoiler lovers who wants to know bits and pieces.

      Also it seems Hamura awaken the Tenseigan in a similar manner to Madara, on the verge of death.

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    • So what ive seen from the whole movie Rinnegan still seems to be more powerful :)

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    • Yeah, Tensaigan is the most powerful Dojutsu based on what we've seen.

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    • First off, I would like to know where it was stated that the Tenseigan is equal to the Rinnegan, and that Toneri is equal to Madara. I watched the movie and read the wikia articles, it didn't say anything like that at all. Anyway, if Tenseigan Toneri and Rinnegan Madara are suppose to be equal, clearly it meant Ten-Tails' Jinchuriki Madara with the Rinnegan. As there's no way it meant Edo Tensei Rinnegan Madara because Toneri completely destroys him easily in all aspects, there isn't even anyway to debate that. So TTJ Rinnegan Madara and Tenseigan Toneri would be the only logical conclusion.

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    • Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 wrote: First off, I would like to know where it was stated that the Tenseigan is equal to the Rinnegan, and that Toneri is equal to Madara. I watched the movie and read the wikia articles, it didn't say anything like that at all. Anyway, if Tenseigan Toneri and Rinnegan Madara are suppose to be equal, clearly it meant Ten-Tails' Jinchuriki Madara with the Rinnegan. As there's no way it meant Edo Tensei Rinnegan Madara because Toneri completely destroys him easily in all aspects, there isn't even anyway to debate that. So TTJ Rinnegan Madara and Tenseigan Toneri would be the only logical conclusion.

      Madara surpasses Toneri

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    • I meant initial TTJ Madara after absorbing the Shinju, not when got both of his eyes.

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    • I just realized that if and when Neji is brought back as an Edo Tensei, he wouldn't have eyes [with vision] since they were sealed away.

      Could he possibly get the Tenseigan in any possible case?

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    • Getting Otsutsuki DNA would have the same effect as getting Senju DNA awakengin the Rinnegan and restoring eyesight, it would awaken the Tenseigan and restore the eyesight to the eyes. So yes Neji could get the Tenseigan if he took some of Toneri's DNA and injected himself.

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    • Could Black Zetsu DNA work to the same effect having as Otsutsuki DNA since he was Kaguya's child?

      Or Kimimaro DNA for that matter since he is a descendent of Kaguya.

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    • Idk, probably not. Naruto did not awaken Rinnegan yet he received Otsutsuki chakra. Sasuke had Naruto's chakra at one point in the war yet he did not awaken the Rinnegan at that time either. So I think it has to be Pure Hyuga/Otsutsuki and Pure Uchiha/Senju combo's to work.

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    • Do you know if Hanabi was able to get the Tenseigan from Toneri after the events in "The Last"?

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    • I don't think so, even though those eyes became Tenseigan, they were deactivated back to Byakugan before they were transplanted back, and Hanabi does not have Otsutuki chakra/dna so she just has her normal Byakugan back.

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    • Maybe if Hinata channeled the chakra she got from Hamura into Hanabi she could awaken the Tenseigan perhaps? Technically her eyes did awaken it's power before, maybe it's lying dormant, and with the application of such chakra it could be awakened again?

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    • I think they are equal...maybe tenseigan > rinnegan by a little

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    • Rinnegan and Tenseigan are both equal power. It depends to the character on how they use it.

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    • Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 wrote: Maybe if Hinata channeled the chakra she got from Hamura into Hanabi she could awaken the Tenseigan perhaps? Technically her eyes did awaken it's power before, maybe it's lying dormant, and with the application of such chakra it could be awakened again?

      nah, if this would happen than it should have happened with hinata too since she got hamuras chakra, but she didnt awaken it :/

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    • Madara is so overestimated.

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    • Lulcielid wrote: Madara is so overestimated.

      In terms of his skillfulness in combat or the powerfulness of his abilities?

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    • I will always take Madara over Toneri anytime of the day because in ruthlessness and pure Evil and in terms of power I will tip my hat to the Uchiha founder of the village. I always regard villains for the evil in their hearts, and being ruthless and show no mercy to one, and he has this in spades.

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    • Madara was only slightly more powerful than Izuna when he had EMS, they were equals when he had his MS. Tobirama is slightly more powerful than Izuna. Madara and DB4 said Tobirama was tied with EMS Madara in life. As shown with their edo forms, Wood Release/EMS/Rinnegan Madara and Hashirama are very, very close but Hashirama still by a hairs breadth came out on top and was about to have Madara sealed(until he came back to life therefor becoming much stronger, as happens to any Edo who comes back to life)

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    • GreatestSin wrote:

      Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 wrote: Maybe if Hinata channeled the chakra she got from Hamura into Hanabi she could awaken the Tenseigan perhaps? Technically her eyes did awaken it's power before, maybe it's lying dormant, and with the application of such chakra it could be awakened again?

      nah, if this would happen than it should have happened with hinata too since she got hamuras chakra, but she didnt awaken it :/

      Ah, but the difference is that Hanabi's eyes already awakened it before. Hinata's haven't and Hanabi's byakugan is stronger than Hinata's is anyway. Regardless, in the end it's just a theory that can't be proven at all.

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    • I heard that in "The Last", Toneri's Tenseigan flickered on and off, so was that because he was not used to using it?

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    • WindStar7125
      WindStar7125 removed this reply because:
      pointless
      11:30, March 26, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • ShinyMagikarp wrote: I heard that in "The Last", Toneri's Tenseigan flickered on and off, so was that because he was not used to using it?

      you heard quite wrong

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    • QuakingStar
      QuakingStar removed this reply because:
      no need
      18:46, March 26, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • believe it or not, in the last tenseigan doesn't seem been fully explored yet. i'm hope boruto able awakening tenseigan

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    • GerizzyYMcrew wrote:

      ShinyMagikarp wrote: I heard that in "The Last", Toneri's Tenseigan flickered on and off, so was that because he was not used to using it?

      you heard quite wrong

      Alright then. I see.

      Thanks for the reply!

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    • OtsutsukiKing wrote: believe it or not, in the last tenseigan doesn't seem been fully explored yet. i'm hope boruto able awakening tenseigan

      He doesn't have byagugan.

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    • MsAnimemangalover2 wrote:

      OtsutsukiKing wrote: believe it or not, in the last tenseigan doesn't seem been fully explored yet. i'm hope boruto able awakening tenseigan

      He doesn't have byagugan.

      Yep. Kishimoto accidentally forgot to give Naruto's two children the Byakugan.

      Though, he did say that if he and Hinata have a third child, he/she would definitely get it then.

      Source:http://www.cinemacafe.net/article/2014/12/06/27884.html

      Translation:http://www.reddit.com/r/Naruto/comments/2ofn6c/another_movie_after_the_last_was_announced/cmnbuvm

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    • He did mention giving Boruto something special in a previous interview though didn't he? So Boruto may awaken something else or simply create his own signature jutsu.

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    • With him looking like how he does, I cannot imagine him as anything other than Konohamaru 2.0 down to his behaviour.

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    • Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 wrote: He did mention giving Boruto something special in a previous interview though didn't he? So Boruto may awaken something else or simply create his own signature jutsu.

      well, i hope for the KKG: "Light Release" ^_^ exspecially if this element gets combined with rasengan, that creates the "Light Release: Rasen-Bomb" ^_^

      the attack takes time to create and control but if it is fired it moves with near lightspeed and the explosions+destructions happen also hat fast, it will be a attack that destoys so fast that it only looks like a "sphere made ou of light which annihilates everything" ^_^

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    • Rinnegan > Tenseigan

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    • Haxs wrote: Rinnegan > Tenseigan

      why do you think rinnegan more powerful than tenseigan?. tenseigan ability not yet fully been explored

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    • Because the Rinnegan directs the chakra power of all Nine Tailed Beast.

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    • Keaire wrote: Because the Rinnegan directs the chakra power of all Nine Tailed Beast.

      Well ok :/ Your statetment is incorrect and has nothing to with "why is Rinnegan > Tenseigan" thing.

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    • The poster above me asked: "Why do you think the Rinnegan is more powerful than Tenseigan?"

      My statement had everything to do with that. As for its validity, read the manga. Sasuke's left eye trapped all Nine Tailed Beast with a single glance genjutsu, trapped them in spheres, and later, gathered and unified those separate chakras within the Gedo Mazou substitute — you know, Susano'o.

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    • Keaire wrote: gathered and unified those separate chakras within the Gedo Mazou substitute — you know, Susano'o.

      May I ask why Sasuke's Susanoo is being brought up here when we know it is a Mangekyō Sharingan ability to begin with?

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    • Unless you only focused upon one word in the entire sentence, I can't imagine why you would ask such a question.

      Susano'o is where he stored the unified Tailed Beast chakra.

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    • Keaire wrote: My statement had everything to do with that. As for its validity, read the manga.

      I did, thank you.

      Keaire wrote:

      Sasuke's left eye trapped all Nine Tailed Beast with a single glance genjutsu, 
      

      He was able to do that since awekening of MS

      Keaire wrote: trapped them in spheres, and later, gathered and unified those separate chakras within the Gedo Mazou substitute — you know, Susano'o.

      And so? He needed external power to deal with Naruto and yet failed with his rinnegan while to deal with tenseigan Toneri Naruto needed external power himself(Hinata's Hamura's chakra - whatever it may be).

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    • Rage gtx wrote: He was able to do that since awekening of MS

      He was able to manipulate all Nine at once with his MS?

      Not sure if serious.

      Rage gtx wrote: And so? He needed external power to deal with Naruto and yet failed with his rinnegan while to deal with tenseigan Toneri Naruto needed external power himself(Hinata's Hamura's chakra - whatever it may be).

      No Six Paths Sage Mode to deal with Toneri. Kyuubi Mode was enough.

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    • He was able to trap the other 8 beasts in genjutsu and only stun Kurama. Kurama was still trying to resist. Besides, that version of the Rinnegan is Sasuke exclusive, it is a gift from the sage, a one-eyed Rinnegan with his left Sharingans powers so if we are going to compare Rinnegan to Tenseigan we have to use the Rinnegan that Hagoromo/Madara/Nagato had.

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    • @Keaire Why are you comparing Sasuke's Super Rinnegan to the regular Rinengan? We're talking about normal Rinnegan against Tenseigan, not the unique one with tomoe and all previous sharingan powers that Sasuke had.

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    • ItachiWasAHero wrote:

      He was able to trap the other 8 beasts in genjutsu and only stun Kurama.

      He trapped all Nine, just as Hagoromo said.

      ItachiWasAHero wrote: Kurama was still trying to resist.

      So? He was still caught and unable to break free.

      ItachiWasAHero wrote: Besides, that version of the Rinnegan is Sasuke exclusive, it is a gift from the sage, a one-eyed Rinnegan with his left Sharingans powers

      It's still a Rinnegan.

      ItachiWasAHero wrote: so if we are going to compare Rinnegan to Tenseigan we have to use the Rinnegan that Hagoromo/Madara/Nagato had.

      No, not really.

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    • You really don't understand do you? This is a general battle, Rinnegan vs Tenseigan. Not "Sasuke's Rinnegan vs Toneri's Tenseigan" This is a vs of the dojutsu's itself. Not some rare gifted variation of Rinnegan(Sasuke Ubitcha), vs just Tenseigan. Also no he attempted to genjutsu trap Kurama, it only paralyzed Kurama, the other 8 were completely trapped in genjutsu.

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    • ItachiWasAHero wrote:

      You really don't understand do you?

      I understand perfectly well what you are trying to say, I'm just simply not interested. Those that I initially responded to didn't seem to mind.

      ItachiWasAHero wrote: Also no he attempted to genjutsu trap Kurama, it only paralyzed Kurama, the other 8 were completely trapped in genjutsu.

      Genjutsu is capable of paralyzing the target. It's not clear whether or not his intent was to separate will from body, or simply restrict their movements — we didn't receive a view of the other eight after they were initially caught.

      Regardless, Hagoromo did not exclude Kurama from the bunch. All Nine were caught, single glance.

      To be honest, I'm not even sure where you're going with this.

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    • Keaire wrote: He was able to manipulate all Nine at once with his MS?

      Eye genjutsu is optical illusion where target must look into(direct contact) caster's eyes(except Kotoamatsukami) no matter how many targets stand on line of sight. Sharingan user since awekening of MS can cast genjutsu on tailed beast, so casting it on all nine is not that hard, you only need them at same place(where they were atm) And none of normal rinnegans(which as we see don't retain their sharingan powers - unlike Sasuke's eye) never shown any genjutsu at all.

      Keaire wrote: Not sure if serious.

      You know trying to ridicule your opponents POV is not the best way to dispute it.

      Keaire wrote: No Six Paths Sage Mode to deal with Toneri. Kyuubi Mode was enough.

      So enough that Naruto wasn't able to stand and his chakra was stolen away until he got Hamura's mix

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    • Rage gtx wrote:

      Eye genjutsu is optical illusion where target must look into(direct contact) caster's eyes(except Kotoamatsukami) no matter how many targets stand on line of sight.

      Tailed Beast are arranged in a circle with Sasuke in the middle; single glance, all trapped.

      Guess he used Kotoamatsukami then.

      Rage gtx wrote:

      Sharingan user since awekening of MS can cast genjutsu beast, so casting it on all nine is not that hard

      Locking nine down shouldn't be too difficult if you can lock one.

      I see; that's a very convincing argument.

      Rage gtx wrote: you only need them at same place(where they were atm) And none of normal rinnegans(which as we see don't retain their sharingan powers - unlike Sasuke's eye) never shown any genjutsu at all.

      Madara was able to follow RaiKage's top speed with his Rinnegan, to the point where the GoKage found it necessary not only to block his Rinnegan vision with Mist, but increase A's speed by making him lighter.

      Madara also pinpointed Naruto the original from clone a moment after joining up with Obito. This was the same ocular power which made him the only person able to see through Hashirama's Wood Clone (a jutsu derived from the Shadow Clone).

      I don't think it's fair to say that the tomoe-less version does not retain Sharingan's power with any certainty.

      Rage gtx wrote: So enough that Naruto wasn't able to stand and his chakra was stolen away until he got Hamura's mix

      SP Sage Mode is a stronger power than Kurama Mode, I think that's the point here. Unless you disagree?

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    • Keaire wrote:

      Tailed Beast are arranged in a circle with Sasuke in the middle; single glance, all trapped.

      Uhm what? He was standing at center of circle of beasts all he need is spin his litle Sasuke-head to look at them. if it was off-frame it doesn't mean it was not there.

      Keaire wrote: Guess he used Kotoamatsukami then.

      I hope not.

      Keaire wrote: Locking nine down shouldn't be too difficult if you can lock one. I see; that's a very convincing argument.

      Care to show where stated that casting gen on multiple targets is so hard.

      Keaire wrote: Madara was able to follow RaiKage's top speed with his Rinnegan, to the point where the GoKage found it necessary not only to block his Rinnegan vision with Mist, but increase A's speed by making him lighter.

      And? Are you refering at Madara's speed which has nothing to do with eyes - since eyes don't give speed boost. Or you refering his eye reaction - on his edo form where he can magically can use his Sharingan as well as Rinnegan. Well as original owner he may even retained these(Sharingan) abilities but his eyes(Rinnegan) are not since Nagato wasn't able to do that and Hachibi especially pointed that Obito uses(in his pain rikudo) Rinnegan to connect field of vision and Sharingan to track opponents and no other way.

      Keaire wrote: Madara also pinpointed Naruto the original from clone a moment after joining up with Obito. This was the same ocular power which made him the only person able to see through Hashirama's Wood Clone (a jutsu derived from the Shadow Clone).

      Nope he did not. He came at battle field saw two Naruto rightly guessed at Naruto clone and still asked Obito where is real one while seeing both Narutos. This is not what you call pinpoint.

      Keaire wrote: I don't think it's fair to say that the tomoe-less version does not retain Sharingan's power with any certainty.

      It is fair to say that atm. There would not be Rinne-Sharingan if it where other way. Rinnegan and Sharingan despite their connections still two differenst sets of dojutsu. And unless you Sasuke or Kaguya(or Madara at MT cast) you can't use them at same time.

      Keaire wrote: SP Sage Mode is a stronger power than Kurama Mode, I think that's the point here. Unless you disagree?

      We thing is that he didn't use it, but if he uses SPMS yes it would be only matter of time, yet problem against Rinnegan user it would be matter of even less time and we has Rinnegan user who was defeted by Naruto in his not perfected SM/uncontrolled BM.

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    • Rage gtx wrote:

      Uhm what? He was standing at center of circle of beasts all he need is spin his litle Sasuke-head to look at them. if it was off-frame it doesn't mean it was not there.

      "He put the Bijuu under genjutsu ... and with a single glance too." - Hagoromo (VIZ)

      What you're describing would take more than a single glance.

      Rage gtx wrote:

      Care to show where stated that casting gen on multiple targets is so hard.

      The quality of the target(s) matters. And we're talking about Tailed Beast — all of them.

      Rage gtx wrote: And? Are you refering at Madara's speed which has nothing to do with eyes - since eyes don't give speed boost. Or you refering his eye reaction - on his edo form where he can magically can use his Sharingan as well as Rinnegan.

      Sasuke's MS failed to keep up with A's top speed; Madara's Rinnegan? No problem.

      Rage gtx wrote:

      Well as original owner he may even retained these(Sharingan) abilities but his eyes(Rinnegan) are not since Nagato wasn't able to do that

      I noticed Nagato's Deva Pain following Six Tailed Naruto's initial speed rush without concern.

      Six Tails.

      Rage gtx wrote: and Hachibi especially pointed that Obito uses(in his pain rikudo) Rinnegan to connect field of vision and Sharingan to track opponents and no other way.

      Lol, what else was he supposed to say?

      Rinnegan connects vision and follows movements, Sharingan follows movements too?

      But if it's like you said, and only the original owner can utilize both powers through the Rinnegan, including Limbo, then what does it matter?

      Rage gtx wrote:

      Nope he did not. He came at battle field saw two Naruto rightly guessed at Naruto clone and still asked Obito where is real one while seeing both Narutos. This is not what you call pinpoint.

      Not what happened.

      The original Naruto was standing in front of Hachibi, behind Kakashi, Gai, and his clone — outside of Madara's line of sight. He looked at the clone and said:

      "This one's also a Shadow Clone, where's the original Obito?" - Madara

      It wasn't a guess. A moment after, the original yelled out:

      "What happened to everyone over there?" - Original Naruto

      Madara cocked his head to the side, thus seeing the original for the first time, and said: "He's over there eh."

      He wasn't unsure.

      Anyway, we can possible conclude that only the original owner can utilize all their ocular powers regardless. I just find the entire thing unlikely seeing that the Rinnegan consist of the same chakra which makes the Sharingan (SP Yin / Indra chakra / Uchiha chakra).

      Rage gtx wrote: It is fair to say that atm. There would not be Rinne-Sharingan if it where other way. Rinnegan and Sharingan despite their connections still two differenst sets of dojutsu. And unless you Sasuke or Kaguya(or Madara at MT cast) you can't use them at same time.

      I see.

      Because we haven't seen the tomoe-less version cast genjutsu and utilize right-left eye MS powers (mind you Madara never bothered with them at all); then Rinnegan can't use them.

      Never mind the fact that Sasuke's eye isn't called "Rinne-Sharingan."

      Rage gtx wrote: We thing is that he didn't use it, but if he uses SPMS yes it would be only matter of time, yet problem against Rinnegan user it would be matter of even less time and we has Rinnegan user who was defeted by Naruto in his not perfected SM/uncontrolled BM.

      I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

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    • We don't rely on Viz translations here for anything so that point is moot.

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    • Keaire wrote: "He put the Bijuu under genjutsu ... and with a single glance too." - Hagoromo (VIZ)

      What you're describing would take more than a single glance.

      You know if he look only once at each Bijuu it still counts as single glance

      Keaire wrote: The quality of the target(s) matters. And we're talking about Tailed Beast — all of them.

      - statement from user Keaire. Well ok.

      Thing is MS can subdue Kurama - most powerful of them so if all other targets are weaker than him it matters not.

      Keaire wrote: Sasuke's MS failed to keep up with A's top speed; Madara's Rinnegan? No problem.

      Sasuke wasn't edo zombie with unlimited stamina and body implants from Asura reincarnation. So there is problem.

      Keaire wrote: I noticed Nagato's Deva Pain following Six Tailed Naruto's initial speed rush without concern.

      You noticed wrong aside from roadrunner cartoon in anime, Tendo got blown away from his own ST then used BT against BD and ran away from vilage and casted CT on folowing Naruto. And you are messing with arguments now - movent speed of only person beside A and Hashirama who was decribed as "at Bijuu chakra level" has litle to nothing to do with reaction speed granted via Sharingan that Pein never displayed

      Keaire wrote:

      Lol, what else was he supposed to say?

      Rinnegan connects vision and follows movements, Sharingan follows movements too?

      Don't twist Hachibi words he said: "Rinnegan connects vision, Sharingan follows movements " and not any other way.

      Keaire wrote:

      But if it's like you said, and only the original owner can utilize both powers through the Rinnegan, including Limbo, then what does it matter?

      It matters great since it is not Rinnegan user with retained Sharingan abilities against Tenseigan it is Rinnegan against Tenseigan. There are person who actually newer shown that he had Sharingan while had Rinnegan(guess who)

      Keaire wrote:

      Not what happened.

      It is.

      Keaire wrote:

      The original Naruto was standing in front of Hachibi, behind Kakashi, Gai, and his clone — outside of Madara's line of sight. He looked at the clone and said:

      All right except Madara's line of sight was this way only atm, while heading to battle filed he somehow magically missed Naruto. And this ignoring the fact that Sharingan can see through objects and you can't hide chakra with charka from it since Sasuke was able to see Ninetails inside seal. But somehow while seeng original Naruto in front of Hachibi(wich is in fron of Madara as well) and Clone he still asked to Obito:

      Keaire wrote:

      "This one's also a Shadow Clone, where's the original Obito?" - Madara

      "Right in front of you idiot, can't you see?" - Obito from cutscene

      And this is person who able to see as far as from Hokage monument and to the far reach of valley before even awekening Sharingan

      Keaire wrote: It wasn't a guess. A moment after, the original yelled out:

      If it wasn't then it seems Madara is mentally hadicaped.

      Keaire wrote: "What happened to everyone over there?" - Original Naruto

      Yes

      Keaire wrote: Madara cocked his head to the side, thus seeing the original for the first time, and said: "He's over there eh."

      NOPE. A) It was not first time seeing the original, and B) he was continuing Naruto question:

      "What happened to everyone over there?" - Original Naruto

      "Over there..." -Madara

      "I'M asking what you did to THEM???!!!" - Naruto

      ....

      Keaire wrote: He wasn't unsure.

      About what he did to GoKage well he knows better.

      Keaire wrote: Anyway, we can possible conclude that only the original owner can utilize all their ocular powers regardless. I just find the entire thing unlikely seeing that the Rinnegan consist of the same chakra which makes the Sharingan (SP Yin / Indra chakra / Uchiha chakra).

      This is again, we speaking about solely Rinnegan vs Tenseigan and only known original owner(Hagoromo) of this eyes never shown to have Sharingan.

      Keaire wrote: Because we haven't seen the tomoe-less version cast genjutsu and utilize right-left eye MS powers (mind you Madara never bothered with them at all); then Rinnegan can't use them.

      Never mind the fact that Sasuke's eye isn't called "Rinne-Sharingan."

      Thing is that while left eye as Rinnegan he still retains his right eye as Sharingan so he has eyes wich paired as Rinnegan and Sharingan plus "Sasuke magic".

      Keaire wrote:

      I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

      I figured that much.. OK here is the catch: Rinnegan vs Tenseigan, no Sharingan or it's powers and thus no Sasuke or Kaguya and no MS and EMS powers in any variants .

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    • No Keaire is right about one thing in the fact that Rinnegan can follow movements mostly.Ohh and I have the chapters of Naruto vs Pain and he did indeed have his eyes keep up with 6tails Naruto, he just didn't think Naruto would be able to anchor himself against Shinra Tensei

      edit

      Another interesting thing, chapter 432 pages 11 and 16, Nagato pretty much says he can sense Senjutsu, and he then absorbs it in chapter 434.

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    • QuakingStar
      QuakingStar removed this reply because:
      double post
      19:28, March 31, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • ItachiWasAHero wrote: No Keaire is right about one thing in the fact that Rinnegan can follow movements mostly.Ohh and I have the chapters of Naruto vs Pain and he did indeed have his eyes keep up with 6tails Naruto, he just didn't think Naruto would be able to anchor himself against Shinra Tensei

      More like observing since it was source of Nagato fast learning but, still not on same extent as Sharingan. Pain got hits from Jiraiya with his not perfect SM, got suppressed from SM Naruto(until he lost it) on same time Naruto(with more powerful mode than SM - KCM) against Obito's Pain Rikudo wasn't able to land any significant hit and they were forced to use Bijuu Hachimaki to chage battle balance.


      ItachiWasAHero wrote: Another interesting thing, chapter 432 pages 11 and 16, Nagato pretty much says he can sense Senjutsu.

      More looks like he can sense senchakra inside Naruto, and even Naruto was able to feel something from Sasuke's Cursed Seal and Karin was able to do even more, i think it is more sensor thing.

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    • Can tenseigan techniques even work against rinnegan techniques?

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    • Haxs wrote: Can tenseigan techniques even work against rinnegan techniques?

      who knows. that's why if boruto achieved tenseigan, boruto can use tenseigan ability to fullest potential because boruto original tenseigan owner. like i said before tenseigan ability in the last not yet seem been fully explored

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    • OtsutsukiKing wrote:

      Haxs wrote: Can tenseigan techniques even work against rinnegan techniques?

      who knows. that's why if boruto achieved tenseigan, boruto can use tenseigan ability to fullest potential because boruto original tenseigan owner. like i said before tenseigan ability in the last not yet seem been fully explored

      That's what i'm thinking, i believe boruto and hima-chan will have to "awaken" their byakugan like a sharingan first

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    • Cause the biggest threat tenseigan users have from rinnegan users are basically well every technique lol

      especially limbo
      
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    • tenseigan > = rinnegan

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    • Keaire wrote: Because the Rinnegan directs the chakra power of all Nine Tailed Beast.

      That's not really impressive since Obito could already control Kurama.

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    • in a battle between juubi Madara and Toneri, I personally think Madara would win hands down, Toneri might be on par with EMS Madara but that's all. Toneri's strongest attack couldn't even break through tailed beast sage mode so I have no reason to believe that it could kill or even do damage to Madara, even before he became a jinchuriki he was stronger then Toneri

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    • Uchiahmasters wrote: in a battle between juubi Madara and Toneri, I personally think Madara would win hands down, Toneri might be on par with EMS Madara but that's all. Toneri's strongest attack couldn't even break through tailed beast sage mode so I have no reason to believe that it could kill or even do damage to Madara, even before he became a jinchuriki he was stronger then Toneri

      EMS Madara is not moon level dude and Naruto from The Last would shit on him.

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    • @Uchiah Dude, Toneri fought toe-to-toe with a complete TBSM Naruto and their fight ripped the moon apart and even sliced it in half. Not a single form of Madara except for TTJ Madara can compare to that power.

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    • Naruto not only has the complete Kurama in The Last, but he also has a Hashirama Senju arm now.. so he has been boosted somewhat. So he lost Hagoromo's gifts but he gained a Hashi arm and the complete Kurama. Toneri is being underestimated here.

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    • Madara >= Toneri. "If they Meant as strong as EMS Madara then i agree but Rinnegan Madara i disagree." So you're saying that EMS Madara could cut the moon in half and cause country size hurricanes? Toneri casually cut the moon in half when he wasn't intending to (He swung his sword towards Naruto trying to kill or maim him but whenever naruto tanked / blocked it, it went towards the moon and cut it in half).

      The only form of Madara that would be capable of slicing the moon in half would be Six Path Madara. Madara with his EMS Susanoo was able to slice mountains in half but that was it.

      @Uchiahmasters."Toneri's strongest attack couldn't even break through tailed beast sage mode" Naruto in his Sage Tailed Beast Mode concentrated his chakra ,which was amped by the power of the Biju, into his arm and was able to casually tank Toneri's technique that was able to cut the moon in half. Post Timeskip Sage Tailed Beast Mode Naruto > Six Path Madara >= Tenseigan Chakra Mode Toneri.

      "so I have no reason to believe that it could kill or even do damage to Madara, even before he became a jinchuriki he was stronger then Toneri" Prove to me that EMS Madara has enough durability to tank a moon slash casually and can shrug it off.

      @ Quaking Star. "So he lost Hagoromo's gifts but he gained a Hashi arm and the complete Kurama. Toneri is being underestimated here." Dude Naruto never lost his SPSM. It was never stated once during the movie that he lost it and there is no where in the manga where it says that. It has never been stated that Naruto lost his SPSM.

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    • WindStar7125
      WindStar7125 removed this reply because:
      Double post.
      01:01, April 30, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • SwordSlayer99, please do not double/triple post. If your comment is the latest one, remember to click the edit button on it and add to it rather than make consecutive comments within short periods of time without waiting for others to respond.

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    • Sorry. Won't do it again.

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    • @SwordSlayer Please, let's not turn this into a thread about whether or not Naruto lost SPSM. Let's try to keep it on topic cause the last time that was discussed the original topic was lost.

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    • "@SwordSlayer Please, let's not turn this into a thread about whether or not Naruto lost SPSM. Let's try to keep it on topic cause the last time that was discussed the original topic was lost." I'll stop talking about it but there is LITERALLY not one bit of proof anywhere that he lost it. People can claim he lost it as much as they want but whenever they get asked to provide proof or evidence they can't as it doesn't exist. The Last said nothing about it, neither did the manga, and it wasn't stated in any of the new novels. Kishimoto didn't say anything about the topic, so people can't claim that.

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    • @SwordSlayer I agree with you. But I just don't feel like arguing about it anymore that's all. Which is why I don't mention it anymore in threads like this. Anyway, Toneri > Madara in all forms except for TTJ.

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    • Yeah Toneri is > Madara in all forms beside his Six Path Mode. Six Path Mode Madara >= Tenseigan Toneri. Toneri and Madara are roughly equal but in a fight Madara would win.

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    • Naruto lost his SPSM mode, otherwise he would have used it against Toneri the instant they fought.

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    • "Naruto lost his SPSM mode, otherwise he would have used it against Toneri the instant they fought." Prove it. Naruto effortlessly overpowered Toneri's technique that cut the moon in half with one hand amped with Biju chakra and one shotted Toneri. Toneri is weak compared to Naruto, so why exactly would he need SPSM. Show me a source where it says it says he lost it. Just because you claim that he lost it doesn't mean that he did. Show me stated proof and i'll believe you. But it doesn't exist.

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    • hey QuakingStar...ever heard of plot device?

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    • Neither does the proof that she still has it huh? He didn't have ANY of the features shown from SPSM, and he didn't have any Truth Seeking Balls. He went into Tailed Beast Sage Mode only. SPSM does not glow with Chakra on the skin. Go look at all the official art for it such as this

      Rikud%C5%8D_Sennin_M%C5%8Ddo.png

      and even in the colored manga images. He doesn't have it anymore.

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    • You don't understand do you? It doesn't matter if you claim he doesn't have it. You have no proof, no statement. You can sit here saying he doesn't have it for how ever long you wish. Doesn't change the fact that you have no proof. What your saying is pure fanfiction because you can't prove it.

      Tell me QuakingKing name one time in the entirety of the Naruto-series that it states that he lost it. Movies, manga, databooks, novels, etc. Prove it or i'm not listing. The only thing I have to say to prove that he has it, is that it isn't stated ANYWHERE that he lost it. Now try again.

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    • to add on to what swordslayer99 typed...you do know that this movie came out before SPSM debuted correct?

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    • Where is your proof that he DOES have it child? You have none, all visual proof points the opposite direction. You must have a picture of SPSM Naruto in your room or something lol

      The Last is labeled chapter 699.5 and was part of the Naruto Project and Kishimoto pretty much did everything but animate it, the same guy who planned and made SPSM. He could have put SMSM in there if he wanted and if Naruto had it still at that point.

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    • "Where is your proof that he DOES have it child? You have none, all visual proof points the opposite direction. You must have a picture of SPSM Naruto in your room or something lol"

      Dude you are literally siting here saying something with no proof. You say that he lost it? Then prove it! If you are so sure that he lost it then prove it. "You have none, all visual proof points the opposite direction." LOL dude did you just say this? What your basically doing is claiming something with no proof. I can say that Naruto is stronger than Kaguya can't I? Does that mean that it's true? Hell no it doesn't.

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    • Lmao you are something special kid. Of course he isn't stronger than Kaguya especially since he lost SPSM after Chapter 699. Proof works both ways, so to say he still has it is speculating. You don't know how proof and context work do you?

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    • I know that Naruto is weaker than Kaguya. But I just did the same thing you did. Tell me QuakingStar where does it say anywhere that he lost it. LOL at you saying stuff with no proof. I don't argue with people who can't provide proof for their statements.

      ""You don't know how proof and context work do you?" " I know exactly how they work. You claimed that he lost it but you can't prove it. There is nothing anywhere that says he lost it. If Naruto ever has to use it in the future i'm going to laugh because then you couldn't say he doesn't have it. LOL try and convince other people in the wiki of your opinion. I wonder how the admins would think about an opinion that has 0 evidence backing it up. Yeah, not too well.

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    • @Quakindstar..So because NARUTO didn't use SPSM he doesn't have it, man you gotta gimme some of what your on cause it's hella strong. Do know that all that is required for naruto to enter SPSM IS all 9TB chakra right? And you do know that the SO6P told the TB that they can meet inside naruto right? And you do know that Kuruma who resides in naruto can communicate with the other TB right?

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    • IF he uses it in the future then he has it, until then you are using nothing but speculation you can't prove anything lol and NO you didn't do the same thing as me because you don't know the definition of speculation apparently xD

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    • if naruto lost SPSM then he wouldnt have used it in the sasuke fight

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    • "IF he uses it in the future then he has it, until then you are using nothing but speculation and NO lol you didn't do the same thing as me because you don't know the definition of speculation apparently xD"

      All you have to do is prove that he lost it then I'll believe you. It is a FACT that it has not been stated that he lost it. "NO lol you didn't do the same thing as me" Yes I did. I claimed something even through there is no evidence to back it up, just like you did.

      "if naruto lost SPSM then he wouldnt have used it in the sasuke fight" What do you have to say about this comment QuakingKing?

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    • You do realize that the Sasuke fight happened 2 years before The Last right? and it happened before they ended the Infinite Tsukuyomi together. SwordSlayer99, you didn't. You simply didn't.

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    • "You do realize that the Sasuke fight happened 2 years before The Last right? and it happened before they ended the Infinite Tsukuyomi together. SwordSlayer99, you didn't. You simply didn't." So now your saying that if you end the IT then you lose your powers? Wheres your proof about this one. Oh wait, it doesn't say that in the manga or anywhere does it? LOL! Keep trying.

      How hard is it for you to understand that just because you claim something doesn't mean its true. You say that if you end the IT then you lose your powers correct? Then where did u get this info from? If its true than link me a source that says this. If you can't link a source then your opinion is invalid and untrue. How hard is it to prove what you say? You said it so prove it.

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    • you realized that you seem to be implying that SPSM has something to do with the yang power he recieved from hagoromo right?...lmao you cant find anything that implies that he lost it and you never will

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    • @Quakingstar 1 question explain how naruto enters SPSM?

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    • No, they lost the seals when they sealed Kaguya, they lost the chakra gifted to them when they USED it all fighting and then ending infinite tsukuyomi. Losing that chakra means losing the SPSM. Obito lost the chakra and had to steal a bit from Madara, and even then he could only make one truth seeking ball with it. Could Obito go into his SPSM again? No he couldn't and didn't. Why would Naruto be an exception? Naruto lost it. Same way that Kakashi's chakra gift was only temporary.

      Ninjachris read this.

      http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Six_Paths_Sage_Mode

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    • "they" sasuke still has the rinnegan...yet naruto lost six paths sage mode?... losing WHAT CHAKRA???...you mean six paths sage chakra? or all the chakra of the tailed beast?...good lord you are filled with nothing but speculation that should not be taken seriously at all (you arent)

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    • yawn...]what obito took from madara was some of shukaku's and gyuki's chakra to give to naruto...hmmm everything else from you is mere speculation

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    • "No, they lost the seals when they sealed Kaguya, they lost the chakra gifted to them when they USED it all fighting and then ending infinite tsukuyom" Dude the Six Paths Charka that Naruto and Sasuke got is totally different than the seals. Go check it on the wiki for yourself.

      Oh and here is another question that you can't answer QuakingStar. Sasuke gained the Six Path Chakra and got his Rinnegan and now 2 years later during The Last, Sasuke still has his Rinnegan. So if they ended IT and lost there power than why does Sasuke have his Rinnegan? Sasuke still has his Rinnegan and thus Naruto still has SPSM.

      "Ninjachris read this. http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Six_Paths_Sage_Mode' Exaclty read this page QuakingStar. Now show me where on this page it says he lost his power.

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    • OMG you guys really can't figure this out huh? Naruto had all the tailed beast chakra while he was laying there basically dead. He already had sage mode before hand. He got SIX PATHS sage mode from Hagoromo's chakra gift along with the Seal. Sasuke already had gotten chakra from hashi and hashi cells from kabuto healing his damaged heart so he would be able to keep his rinnegan anyways. I'm not taken seriously? LMAO good jest child. Go along and play with your coloring books now. Lets make this simpler for you, Hagoromo chakra gifted to naruto equals SPSM, chakra runs out? No SPSM. HAHAHAHAHAHAH did you really just say Obito didn't take some of the chakra from Madara too and only took parts of the 2 bijuus chakra?? I'm DONE with you clowns hahahahaha and to answer your question about the rinnegan, WHY did Nagato have it? Why did Pre-TTJ Madara have it? Oh.. there goes your argument.

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    • your fighting a losing battle quaker...you've yet to provide a link with the words "six paths sage mode" and "lost/lose" in it...nothing you type is taken seriously by anyone

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    • 1. " Sasuke already had gotten chakra from hashi and hashi cells from kabuto healing his damaged heart so he would be able to keep his rinnegan anyways" Where does it say this in the manga exactly. In fact on this wiki it says that Sasuke activated his Rinnegan when he achieved his Six Path Power.

      2. "Hagoromo chakra gifted to naruto equals SPSM, chakra runs out?" Let me make this simpler for you, Chakra and Biju charka are shown to regenerate. And you can't prove that his Biju chakra stopped regenerating whenever it doesn't say that in the manga.

      Try again.

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    • also...look up the words "plot device" and watch the last naruto movie...there is a very simple reason why he didnt use it

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    • @Quakingstar here's another question what did SPSM obito, SPSM madara and SPSM naruto all have in common? Hint: number between 8 and 10

      And naruto gift was healing not SPSM, the latter he got from having all TB chakra, and guess who befriended the TB and has unlimited access to their chakra hence SPSM? Hint: begins with n

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    • Give me proof he still has it. Right now. Written proof from source material.. shit give me EVIDENCE that he still has it that I haven't already debunked. It's QuakingStar btw, Jizzycrew.

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    • show me a link where it states he lost it...YOU CANT...."six paths chakra running out" lmaooo nice try quaker

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    • LMAO xD that same statement goes EITHER WAY Jizzcrew.

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    • We have gotten no proof that he lost it so why would you even think that? QuakingStar why don't you just listen. There is NO PROOF anywhere that he lost it. How can you say he lost it whenever you can not PROVE it! Where does it say he lost it. There isn't one statement that says he lost it.

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    • There is NO PROOF he still has it either, no evidence, no written proof, no physical proof. Give me the proof, hell even the evidence. I will be waiting here.

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    • hey quaker...a link with the words "six paths sage mode" and "lost/lose"?

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    • I really don't understand your logic. Why would I have to prove that Naruto still has something whenever he never lost it? LOL I don't think so.

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    • Jizzy you just don't get it. You have zero evidence/proof he still has it after infinite tsukuyomi ended.. yet there is evidence he does not have it. His physical appearance in the last while using ONLY Tailed Beast Sage Mode. Thats once shot of evidence in my favor while you have NONE in your favor. NONE.

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    • ^^^ he doesnt understand logic period...the burden of proof is on him

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    • HAHAHAHAHA Jizzy why are you still talking nobody takes you seriously

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    • Man I really can't understand how this is so difficult for you. Let me break it down. Obito activated SPSM by absorbing the ten tails (9TB) nothing to do with SO6P. madara activated SPSM absorbing the ten tails (9TB) again nothing to with SO6P. Naruto activated SPSM from TB chakra he received from bumping fist with some of the biju and the rest from obito = (9TB) ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH SO6P. The gift from the SO6P was healing and sealing.

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    • " You have zero evidence/proof he still has it after infinite tsukuyomi ended"

      Sasuke still has his Rinnegan and you can't prove Naruto doesn't have his SPSM.

      I'd like to see you argue against Ninjachris's point, Quaking.

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    • we've also established that this entire thing is one giant bag of speculation from quaker...not to be taken seriously of course...which is why you wont see LOST on the six paths sage chakra wiki

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    • SwordSlayer come on man... it isn't this hard. Once an Uchiha awakens the Rinnegan it won't go away ever unless transplanted into somebody else, or sealed away as was done to Madara(technically Kaguya but it was Madara's body which is why his eyes were blind as he was laying on the ground about to die) So why would Sasuke lose the Rinnegan ever? and "on the six paths sage chakra wiki" REALLY?? xD

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    • http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Six_Paths_Sage_Mode hey quaker...I dont see anywhere that states he lost this mode... but let me guess...you know more than wiki and you know everything right?... this could very well be my burden of proof...the use of words in present tense

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    • Exactly. He has no proof in anything he says but he still says he is right. He thinks that if you don't use a power up but there is no proof that they lost it, then they must of lost it according to Quaking.

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    • Look on Hagoromo's page Quaking. http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Hagoromo_%C5%8Ctsutsuki. And look what it says. " Dividing his power evenly between the two young ninja, Hagoromo gives his chakra to Naruto and Sasuke, which ultimately leads to them awakening the Six Paths Sage Mode and the Rinnegan, respectively." Hagoromo made Sauske unlock his RInnegan. Have fun proving a fact wrong.

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    • Lmao sure kids, sure. You can't prove me wrong, everything I said you couldn't debunk or disprove. Oh, as for Sasuke getting Hashirama DNA from Kabuto, you think thats wrong? Go tell takL(an esteemed translator) at narutoforums he is wrong about that. Try again :)

      edit

      Hagoromo tells Kakashi he gave them each HALF OF HIS CHAKRA which is why he had to summon the other kage from the dead to help him because he didn't have enough chakra left(a chakra gift same as Obito's chakra gift to Kakashi) The chakra from hagoromo had the same effect as Hashi's chakra in that it awakened the Rinnegan, nobody ever contested THAT.

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    • still waiting on those links quaker (it'll never come)

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    • Dude I've already won the argument. Sasuke unlocked his Rinnegan from the So6P power and Sasuke still has his Rinnegan during The Last. "" Dividing his power evenly between the two young ninja, Hagoromo gives his chakra to Naruto and Sasuke, which ultimately leads to them awakening the Six Paths Sage Mode and the Rinnegan, respectively." "

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    • No you didn't you are not getting it into your tiny brain that even though he lost Hagoromo's chakra gift, he would not lose the Rinnegan, he is an Uchiha and it was awakened in HIS eyes. What is wrong with you two?

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    • Dude the MANGA stated the Sasuke unlocked his Rinnegan because of Hagomoro's power. If his power was capable of running out like you suspect then Sasuke wouldn't of had a Rinnegan during The Last but he did. Sasuke still has his power and Naruto still has his. Like I said, I've won.

      " he is an Uchiha and it was awakened in HIS eyes" Doesn't matter. If he unlocked his Rinnegan because of Hagoromo's power and then Hagoromo's power ran out then he would lose his Rinnegan. You say Hagoromo's power ran out for the two but Sasuke still has his power.

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    • hey SwordSlayer99...it also states that SPSM was mentioned in the last (click the six paths sage mode link I posted) now why would that be?

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    • I'm not going to bother trying with you two anymore, you can believe what you want no matter how false it is. I said all I needed to say. You two apparently missed it all. I'll be back when people take you two serious lol

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    • SwordSlayer99
      SwordSlayer99 removed this reply because:
      Double comment accident
      04:42, April 30, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • Oh wow I see that. Hmm I wonder where it mentions it at.

      "I'm not going to bother trying with you two anymore, you can believe what you want no matter how false it is. I said all I needed to say. You two apparently missed it all. I'll be back when people take you two serious lol"

      K dude they mention SPSM in The Last.

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    • I suggest you merge your posts and delete your double post.. I'm sure WindStar is getting tired of warning you. YOU TOO JIZZY. WindStar I know you see this.

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    • k

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    • Well I understand what is being said. Both received Hagoromo's chakra and Naruto got SPSM and Sasuke got his crazy eye. Since Sasuke development was a physical one it can't be taken if someone absorbed his power. However Naruto development was just chakra which can be simply absorbed and lost. Not saying he lost it or anything but I would understand why he lost it if it were true.

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    • Third Eye Soul wrote: Well I understand what is being said. Both received Hagoromo's chakra and Naruto got SPSM and Sasuke got his crazy eye. Since Sasuke development was a physical one it can't be taken if someone absorbed his power. However Naruto development was just chakra which can be simply absorbed and lost. Not saying he lost it or anything but I would understand why he lost it if it were true.

      I wouldn't agree, Naruto's development was physical too, not just chakra, that cloak was because of Kurama (not sure if chakra of others tbs have to with it much). Hagoromo's full power is his EYES and BODY, his sons got half of it, same happened with Naruto and Sasuke when he gave them power, thus Sasuke got eye power - Rinnegan and Naruto got body power - SPSM. Remember that Naruto was in SPSM after recieveing power and before he doned chakra cloak. He can turn it on an off like Sasuke can his Rinnegan ...

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    • I don't really understand the logic of saying that if he used the chakra then it wouldn't come back. Chakra has been shown to regenerate through out the entirety of the Naruto-series. Also Biju chakra regenerates, in fact even after a Biju's Jinch is killed the Biju's chakra will eventually regenerate back over time. "Hagoromo's full power is his EYES and BODY, his sons got half of it, same happened with Naruto and Sasuke when he gave them power, thus Sasuke got eye power - " Naruto got the body power which gave him the SPSM and Sasuke got the eye power which is the Rinnegan. There also isn't one statement or suggestion in the entire series that states that Naruto has lost his SPSM and in fact the SPSM is mentioned in The Last. So Naruto does indeed still have his SPSM.

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    • I'm with you on that, Hagoromo's chakra is what caused Sasuke to awaken Rinnegan, same way is with Naruto, it caused him to awaken SPSM. It's not temporary boost like with Kakashi to just go away when one use all of chakra given to him.

      I also don't get people who want prof of him still having SPSM. When we saw him having SPSM in manga, and latter he was shown not using it, why do we need to prove he still have it if it's nowhere stated that he lost it, kinda funny. If you see me having 10$ and after some time when i could or should spend it i don't. Now, only ones who need to prove anything is people who think i did spent it elsewhere or lost it, no vica versa, cuz you already saw me having it, that's prof from this side.

      Don't laught at example, it's first thing that came on my mind, lol, but i think you'll get the point ...

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    • Yeah I agree. And that is a very good example lol.

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    • Daywakler wrote: I also don't get people who want prof of him still having SPSM. When we saw him having SPSM in manga, and latter he was shown not using it, why do we need to prove he still have it if it's nowhere stated that he lost it, kinda funny.

      because naruto was fighting for the aske of the world and his future-wife, how stupid does such a char need to be so that he doesnt go all-out against someone which couldnt be one-shotted with KM/KSM alone?

      your example would only work if you do that: you had 10$, something happens and you could spend this 10$ to buy some stuff, actually you want this stuff(which in our case is "naruto wants to stop toneri seriously without playing around), but you still beg someone for the money and buy it that way... why?

      people will logically assume you lost your 10$, which should be correct, or you simply didnt want to spend your own money which would contradict with the "want it seriously"-thing, in the story it would mean that naruto actually did hold himself back, sounds like he either lost his brain-cells thanks to all that chakra or he lost his SPSM ^_^ i think the latter option makes more sense ^_^ OR: there is some sort of rule like "being near of all tailed beasts in order to use SPSM", this would explain why he didnt use it on the moon ^_^

      at least this is how i think about it ^_^

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    • Well there is more proof that Naruto has it then he doesn't have it considering it is mentioned during The Last.

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    • I watched movie and i can't tell Naruto had hard time fighting Toneri, one punch of full power KCSM was enough to beat him. If he did go all out, movie would last about 10 minutes or less :P and we know that movie wasn't about power, it was about love... and it stil don't change the fact that it's nowhere stated for him not having that power anymore

      But in the end, everyone have their opinions, i just hate when people start stating something without prof, and even if it's not enough it is stil safer to asume he have it cuz we saw him using that power than that he don't have it based on fact that he didin't use it in movie and nowhere stated that he lost it

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    • @Greatestsin Naruto assessed the opponent and his strongest mode was not required. What you Said is illogical and unpractical throughout the naruto series how often has a character gone full power at the start of a fight. The circumstances are almost always near death or last resort. And if I have a 10$ and a 5$ bill about to purchase a item with out knowing the cost why would I take out my 10$ bill, this would only give the cashier the opportunity to increase the price. However if the cost just happened to 5$ then I just pay with the 5$bill see very simple.

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    • GreatestSin had a GREAT point and that is all I needed to know.. Kurama was out of his body fighting the Hamura Statue the Whole time, therefore he couldn't use SPSM. GreatestSin THANK YOU. You brought the evidence that was needed in the argument. YOU unlike Jizzy and his friend actually brought evidence that he still has SPSM.

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    • Great now that we have decided that Naruto still has SPSM lets discuss the original topic. I believe that Madara and Toneri are rougly eqaul and that if the two over fought Madara would win but it would be a hard fight.

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    • Toneri with Tenseigan vs Madara alive with Both Rinnegan.. that would be a better fight since both are not Jinchurikis here.

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    • Daywakler wrote: I watched movie and i can't tell Naruto had hard time fighting Toneri, one punch of full power KCSM was enough to beat him. If he did go all out, movie would last about 10 minutes or less :P

      yeah, i dont like this explanation, it lacks the "in-story" feeling which the other excuses had XD

      Ninjachris wrote:

      @Greatestsin Naruto assessed the opponent and his strongest mode was not required. What you Said is illogical and unpractical throughout the naruto series how often has a character gone full power at the start of a fight.

      but this was only because the "trump cards" had horrible drawbacks OR they needed preparation, sasukes kirin? needed time, itachis susanoo? last resort since he coudlnt use it for long, kakashis sharingan? needed a hugh amount of chakra, gais gates? was super-exhausting, pre-war-arc-kyuubi-powerup? gave more chakra but had only negative effects on narutos body...

      on the other hand SPSM never showed such kind of drawback, for all we know he could have even slept in that mode, only logical outcome, naruto lot all braincells or SPSM is gone...

      or the out-story explanation: he would be to strong :(

      Ninjachris wrote: The circumstances are almost always near death or last resort. And if I have a 10$ and a 5$ bill about to purchase a item with out knowing the cost why would I take out my 10$ bill, this would only give the cashier the opportunity to increase the price. However if the cost just happened to 5$ then I just pay with the 5$bill see very simple.

      ? that makes no sense, if you want to improve someones example you need to base it on his "source"(in this case: why didnt he go all out agaisnt toneri while the sake of the world was on the line?), what does the cashier have to do with what i said?

      QuakingStar wrote: GreatestSin had a GREAT point and that is all I needed to know.. Kurama was out of his body fighting the Hamura Statue the Whole time, therefore he couldn't use SPSM. GreatestSin THANK YOU. You brought the evidence that was needed in the argument. YOU unlike Jizzy and his friend actually brought evidence that he still has SPSM.

      thanks, rare to see so much agreement to my posts ^_^ even while i didnt exactly said that naruto has it, it isnt really stated, well, depends on ones own preference XD

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    • Ninjachris wrote: @Greatestsin Naruto assessed the opponent and his strongest mode was not required. What you Said is illogical and unpractical throughout the naruto series how often has a character gone full power at the start of a fight. The circumstances are almost always near death or last resort.

      I think that the world and his girlfriend at stake would be enough to warrant full power. I think the Kurama explanation is better: Kurama wasn't there so he could not access his full power.

      Though to be honest, considering the circumstances i always thought that the Hagoromo powers for Sasuke and Naruto were temporary. Especially since it's from beyond the grave just like Kakashi's Susanoo.

      As to Rinnegan versus Tenseigan: This is very difficult to assess because Madara is a God of Shinobi and Toneri didn't seem to even match regular Madara's power. The Tenseigan chakra mode seemed to enact the level of destruction seen by Hashirama and Madara. Which i think is a testament to the latter's power, not the "weakness" of the Tenseigan. After all, Sasuke with a Sharingan beat a Mangekyou Sharingan. The shinobi wielding the power is just as important as the power itself. Thus, a God of shinobi with a Six Paths power is far beyond a powerful (but not Godlike) shinobi with a Six Paths (-like) power. Judging that Pain with the Rinnegan was beaten by a Sage Naruto, and a Tenseigan Toneri by a Kyubi Chakra Naruto, i would say they're about equal in power. Remember that Obito could only use one Rinnegan or it would kill him. Nagato could use both, yet didn't have powers like Limbo or Position swap. SO i wonder,is what we saw of the Tenseigan, truly the limit of the Tenseigan? Is Toneri the "Nagato" of the Tenseigan and do we yet have to see a "Madara" of the Tenseigan? After all, Madara unlocked a power (limbo) that other Rinnegan users didn't. Sasuke had his own unique power (Position swap). Is that his skill (he was fast to begin with)? A unique power by Hagoromo? Can Madara learn that power? Can Sasuke learn Limbo? Do Rinnegan powers only scale with power, or with skill too? Or is it a matter of being the "original owner"?

      In the end, there are a lot of unanswered questions. But one should not forget that Madara as a God-level shinobi would beat Toneri (After all, he got beaten by Kyuubi Naruto who got beaten by Madara), and so comparisons between Madara (rinnegan) and Toneri (Tenseigan) aren't exactly fair to begin with. It seems that the Tenseigan is about equivalent to the Rinnegan, or if you refuse to believe that, they're in the same ballpark of power. We've simply seen a lot more of the Rinnegan. After all, Naruto needed more power to defeat the Tenseigan (kyubi mode) than the Nagato Rinnegan (only Sage Mode). His Kyubi mode beat Obito with the Rinnegan (but only one, and with Bee he could defeat 6 tailed beasts + Rinnegan Obito, though with help). by the time we get to Madara, he already has Hashirama, Madara, Rinnegan, Edo Tensei and later even Kyubi powers.

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    • @Thekillman That isn't true. Naruto was in TBSM when fighting Toneri and was dramatically stronger than when he fought Madara (I mean regular Rinnegan Madara and when Naruto only had TBM). Not only did he have both halves of Kurama but he also added Sage Mode to it and naturally he was stronger than he was 2 years ago. So the comparison isn't fair, regular Rinnegan Madara never did anything on the level that Toneri did. Toneri and Naruto's fight ripped the Moon apart and Toneri's strongest attack cut the Moon in half and the power of the Tenseigan itself allowed him to control the Moon and crash it into the Earth. The only form of Madara that compares to that is TTJ Madara. He would get annihilated by TCM Toneri in an instant if he wasn't a jinchuriki, and you also can't forget that Madara had wood release which is super effective against tailed beasts and thus wouldn't be as effective against Toneri.

      On a side-note, I do agree with the Kurama explanation. Naruto and Sasuke both still have their respective power-ups from Hagoromo. Naruto had SPSM and Sasuke had Rinnegan. Naruto didn't use SPSM in The Last because he projected Kurama from his body and thus his power was divided between himself and Kurama, preventing him from using his full power. That sounds like a pretty logical conclusion to me and also where was it mentioned in The Last that Naruto still had SPSM SwordSlayer? Just curious.

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    • Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 wrote: @Thekillman That isn't true. Naruto was in TBSM when fighting Toneri and was dramatically stronger than when he fought Madara (I mean regular Rinnegan Madara and when Naruto only had TBM). Not only did he have both halves of Kurama but he also added Sage Mode to it and naturally he was stronger than he was 2 years ago. So the comparison isn't fair, regular Rinnegan Madara never did anything on the level that Toneri did. Toneri and Naruto's fight ripped the Moon apart and Toneri's strongest attack cut the Moon in half and the power of the Tenseigan itself allowed him to control the Moon and crash it into the Earth. The only form of Madara that compares to that is TTJ Madara. He would get annihilated by TCM Toneri in an instant if he wasn't a jinchuriki, and you also can't forget that Madara had wood release which is super effective against tailed beasts and thus wouldn't be as effective against Toneri.

      The moon is hollow, and judging from naruto's chakra blasting through, not all that thick (a few hundred meters?) That makes Toneri's cutting the moon in half more in line with Madara's Complete/true/full body Susanoo cutting mountains in half. Sure, he projected it over a larger range which itself is impressive. But in terms of power it's more like a focused Tailed Beast Bomb attack. So i actually think it's within Madara's reach, or at least not that far from his mountain cutting.

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    • @Thekillman Maybe in real life, but not in Naruto. It was stated that the Otsutsuki had lived on the Moon for almost a thousand years and had built an advanced technological civilization on it. They even had plant life and creatures living on it. Only a handful of meteors falling from the Moon were able to cause great destruction across the planet and could have easily destroyed the main villages. One large meteor would have destroyed Konoha and the hokage monument and that meteor was only a small piece of the Moon. It took the combined efforts of Lee and a few other Eight Gate users to destroy half of it and Sasuke destroyed the other half. Can you imagine how large and powerful the actual Moon would be if it hit Earth? Like they said, all life would end. Toneri cutting the Moon in half is leagues above anything Rinnegan Madara ever did. How is cutting a few mountains in half anything compared to that? Or even dropping two large meteors? It really isn't.

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    • Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 wrote: @Thekillman Maybe in real life, but not in Naruto.

      Sorry, but what part are you referencing?

      Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 wrote: One large meteor would have destroyed Konoha and the hokage monument and that meteor was only a small piece of the Moon. It took the combined efforts of Lee and a few other Eight Gate users to destroy half of it and Sasuke destroyed the other half. Can you imagine how large and powerful the actual Moon would be if it hit Earth? Like they said, all life would end. Toneri cutting the Moon in half is leagues above anything Rinnegan Madara ever did. How is cutting a few mountains in half anything compared to that? Or even dropping two large meteors? It really isn't.

      A meteor is powerful because it transformed it's potential energy to kinetic energy. It takes so much to destroy, not because it's a big rock, but because it's a big rock coming in at a few kilometers per second. That rock that hit russia? Massive damage, and it was 10m or so across. A hundred meters across and you rival a (kiloton-level) nuke in power. A thousand meters across and the blast is bigger than the greatest nuke built. A rock from space is so dangerous because it got dropped from a few hundred miles above. Not because it's a big rock. The crater and explosion from the first meteor over Konoha was not even close to a Tailed Beast bomb.

      In the end, like i said it's impressive, but it's a thin-shelled hollow moon. That makes it a whole lot less impressive. Naruto alone made a hole in the moon with his chakra, and considering how clean the hole was, if it were more ideally applied it could've been several times bigger. That makes his moon-cutting more in line with a (powerful) tailed beast bomb focused into a thin beam.

      As to power levels, the last 50 or so manga pages show a near-logarithmic increase in power. So yes, i actually consider moon-cutting closer to Rinnegan Madara than Juubi Madara.

      As to mountain cutting: Mountains are typically in the order of a few kilometers high, and he cut (from memory) 3 or 4 of them. Assuming a basic triangle and accounting for the flat land surrounding them, that makes it a sweep many dozens of kilometers across, though hundreds of meters thick rock. But it wasn't a killer move or anything: madara just did it to prove a point. If he did that without a sweat, i wonder how far he can stretch that power until he hits his limit. Even if it takes several times his actual power to prove it, Juubi Madara was so far above Rinnegan Madara that i still consider it more like Rinnegan Madara power. I'm purely estimating order-of-magnitude power levels here, nothing specific (since that's pointless).

      I think it makes it fairly clear that the Tenseigan and Rinnegan are fairly similar in power, though the Rinnegan has more utility power. Though i think that may also be because we've seen a lot more of the Rinnegan than the Tenseigan.

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    • SPSM is made up of two things with exception to naruto's own sage chakra

      • the rikudo's chakra
      • the tailed beasts

      Naruto has never lost hagoromo's chakra, its shows in him being able to fly, manipulate chakra with one hand in the movie and possibly manifest Kurama without sealing (not so sue tho, lol) plus if it were temporary Sasuke would lose his rinnegan cause all rinnegans are powered by "hagoromo's chakra" but sauske still has his own meaning hagoromo's power-up is permanent.

      Naruto has lost or probably exhausted the chakra the beasts gave him in their subconscious plane since they're not fully sealed but subconciously linked with him, if he wants to get their chakra, he just needs to commune with them and receive more to combine with his rikudo chakra and sage chakra to obtained SPSM again.

      I believe this answers why naruto didn't go SPSM but looking at the movie he didn't really need it plus i believe kishi thought it would be overkill since the SPSM form was able to combat the Originator of chakra much less a tenseigan user

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    • Like I said a MILLION fucking times. Once an Uchiha awakens the Rinnegan it is THERE permanently. It wouldn't matter if Sasuke lost the Sages chakra, even if he did he would STILL have the Rinnegan. It was already proven Naruto still has SPSM none the less so stop beating a dead fucking horse.

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    • Madara with rinnegan is stronger than Toneri with tenseigan but that does not make rinnegan stronger because Toneri isn't nearly as strong as Madara Uchiha.To compare these 2 Dōjutsu you would need someone as strong as Madara to have tenseigan.

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    • QuakingStar wrote: Like I said a MILLION fucking times. Once an Uchiha awakens the Rinnegan it is THERE permanently. It wouldn't matter if Sasuke lost the Sages chakra, even if he did he would STILL have the Rinnegan. It was already proven Naruto still has SPSM none the less so stop beating a dead fucking horse.

      Can you point to a source where Naruto still has his SPSM?

      Remember that they both lost an arm. I need to check if that was the arm they got that seal on. Besides, the series has established that gifted chakra is limited in time.

      EDIT: Naruto received the seal on the right arm, which he lost. Sasuke received the seal on his left arm, which he lost. So there's a good chance they're unable to use the Six Paths powers.

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    • QuakingStar wrote: Like I said a MILLION fucking times. Once an Uchiha awakens the Rinnegan it is THERE permanently. It wouldn't matter if Sasuke lost the Sages chakra, even if he did he would STILL have the Rinnegan. It was already proven Naruto still has SPSM none the less so stop beating a dead fucking horse.

      Lose the aggressive attitude with forum members or your going to get blocked again. You don't need any more warnings about it.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      QuakingStar wrote: Like I said a MILLION fucking times. Once an Uchiha awakens the Rinnegan it is THERE permanently. It wouldn't matter if Sasuke lost the Sages chakra, even if he did he would STILL have the Rinnegan. It was already proven Naruto still has SPSM none the less so stop beating a dead fucking horse.

      Can you point to a source where Naruto still has his SPSM?

      Remember that they both lost an arm. I need to check if that was the arm they got that seal on. Besides, the series has established that gifted chakra is limited in time.

      EDIT: Naruto received the seal on the right arm, which he lost. Sasuke received the seal on his left arm, which he lost. So there's a good chance they're unable to use the Six Paths powers.

      he lost the seal before he lost his arm, and he still was using SPSM in his final battle with sasuke

      That partcular seal was for sealing kaguya, not actually the source of his SPSM

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    • Third Eye Soul wrote: It's kind of hard to tell for me. I don't believe the Tenseigan was used to its full ability. I also believe Toneri isn't up to par with Madara skill wise. Basically if someone as skilled as Madara possessed the Tenseigan, then maybe we can put them on equal terms of power. But I do agree, Rinnegan Madara is stronger than Tenseigan Toneri.

      I agree with this. Also I think the Tenseigan have tremendous power, though one thing isn't really fair: Madara had the Rinnegan... For a while, and Toneri only had his Tenseigan for like ten minutes.xD Well Kishi could have pulled out some instant mastery from his sleeve, but with Toneri it didn't seem like the case. I think that Rinnegan Madara is stronger than Tenseigan Toneri, but the article on the Tenseigan do state that the Tenseigan have similar powers.

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    • Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 wrote: @Thekillman Maybe in real life, but not in Naruto. It was stated that the Otsutsuki had lived on the Moon for almost a thousand years and had built an advanced technological civilization on it. They even had plant life and creatures living on it. Only a handful of meteors falling from the Moon were able to cause great destruction across the planet and could have easily destroyed the main villages. One large meteor would have destroyed Konoha and the hokage monument and that meteor was only a small piece of the Moon. It took the combined efforts of Lee and a few other Eight Gate users to destroy half of it and Sasuke destroyed the other half. Can you imagine how large and powerful the actual Moon would be if it hit Earth? Like they said, all life would end. Toneri cutting the Moon in half is leagues above anything Rinnegan Madara ever did. How is cutting a few mountains in half anything compared to that? Or even dropping two large meteors? It really isn't.

      the moon cutting blade of Toneri's was tanked by naruto in tailed beast sage mode, how can it even damage susanoo if it can't even cut through the skin of naruto in tailed beast sage mode? I'm pretty sure that susanoo has better defense then tailed beast sage mode

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    • @Thekillman Again, I think you're using too much rl logic. I doubt Kishimoto was thinking about all of that when he and his co-workers made Toneri slice the Moon in half. They most likely just did it as a testament to his power, and the Tenseigan is stated to be equal to the Rinnegan in power. However Toneri doesn't just have Tenseigan, he has his TCM which makes him much stronger than usual.

      @Uchihamasters Naruto was in a complete TBSM after 2 years of mastering Kurama's full power. He also focused all of his power directly into his hand in order to block Toneri's attack. The susanoo's defense is dependant on it's user and it's stage, so I don't think that statement is really a fair comparison.

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    • Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 wrote: @Thekillman Again, I think you're using too much rl logic. I doubt Kishimoto was thinking about all of that when he and his co-workers made Toneri slice the Moon in half. They most likely just did it as a testament to his power, and the Tenseigan is stated to be equal to the Rinnegan in power. However Toneri doesn't just have Tenseigan, he has his TCM which makes him much stronger than usual.

      @Uchihamasters Naruto was in a complete TBSM after 2 years of mastering Kurama's full power. He also focused all of his power directly into his hand in order to block Toneri's attack. The susanoo's defense is dependant on it's user and it's stage, so I don't think that statement is really a fair comparison.

      I guess iphe has apoint because naruto trained hard and i mean really hard to accomplish on what he is now and at the last moments were enhanced by hagoromo to make him understand the nature of things so that he can perform jutsus with ease whereas toneri only had the tenseigan for merely weeks and is showing potential during his first use so for me ot would indicate that with further more training toneri's power and skill would grow that would make him more powerful or if not on par with naruto hence sasuke's lvl.......... This is just speculation though

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    • Toneri had it for only a few days... it had JUST matured at his final battle with Naruto, he hadn't even mastered it yet. So that just makes you think it must be much more powerful than what was shown.

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    • QuakingStar wrote: Toneri had it for only a few days... it had JUST matured at his final battle with Naruto, he hadn't even mastered it yet. So that just makes you think it must be much more powerful than what was shown.

      Well it does raise the question of whether we saw all there is to the Tenseigan. It took Nagato years before he got his Six Paths of Pain and even then he never got Limbo or Position swap (sasuke's power). So it raises the very real question of whether the Tenseigan has such scaling. For a power like that, seeing it only in action for a few minutes is a shame, and it makes me wish we see more of it in Naruto Gaiden. By the way, it does seem to give Creation abilities (the cage hinata was in) so it makes me wonder what limit that imposes.


      Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 wrote: @Thekillman Again, I think you're using too much rl logic.

      So in stead i should wave my hands and say "it is so"?

      Naruto indeed focused everything into one punch to end Toneri, he even got out of his chakra mode because of it. By the way, Tailed Beast Chakra Mode seems to grant armor on par with a Susanoo.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      QuakingStar wrote: Toneri had it for only a few days... it had JUST matured at his final battle with Naruto, he hadn't even mastered it yet. So that just makes you think it must be much more powerful than what was shown.

      Well it does raise the question of whether we saw all there is to the Tenseigan. It took Nagato years before he got his Six Paths of Pain and even then he never got Limbo or Position swap (sasuke's power). So it raises the very real question of whether the Tenseigan has such scaling. For a power like that, seeing it only in action for a few minutes is a shame, and it makes me wish we see more of it in Naruto Gaiden. By the way, it does seem to give Creation abilities (the cage hinata was in) so it makes me wonder what limit that imposes.


      Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 wrote: @Thekillman Again, I think you're using too much rl logic.

      So in stead i should wave my hands and say "it is so"?

      Naruto indeed focused everything into one punch to end Toneri, he even got out of his chakra mode because of it. By the way, Tailed Beast Chakra Mode seems to grant armor on par with a Susanoo.

      tailed beast giving defense on par with susanoo, I highly doubt that, susanoo is the strongest defense in this entire series, while tailed beast mode might be on par with the third raikages armour, I don't think it is on par or even close to susanoo

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    • After all, susano is just chakra, same thing with KCM. Only Itachi's susano was absolute defence, that doesn't imply that every susano is.

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    • Daywakler wrote: After all, susano is just chakra, same thing with KCM. Only Itachi's susano was absolute defence, that doesn't imply that every susano is.

      didnt sasuke said something to gaara while he was fighting raikage?

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    • Daywakler wrote: After all, susano is just chakra, same thing with KCM. Only Itachi's susano was absolute defence, that doesn't imply that every susano is.

      sasuke's susanoo was a stronger defense than Gaara's sand which is considered an absolute defense and was said to surpass the third raikage's armour, and Madara's susanoo is even stronger than sasuke's that so the point still stands

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    • @UchihaMasters The Susanoo was only considered the absolute defense at the time of it's introduction because it was so spectacular then. Towards the end of the series, it really wasn't all that much of an absolute defence anymore. If anything, TBM was depicted being on equal standing with it if not even stronger. As TBM has been shown to withstand incredibly durable attacks too, attacks even stronger than what Susanoo has been hit with.

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    • Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 wrote: @UchihaMasters The Susanoo was only considered the absolute defense at the time of it's introduction because it was so spectacular then. Towards the end of the series, it really wasn't all that much of an absolute defence anymore. If anything, TBM was depicted being on equal standing with it if not even stronger. As TBM has been shown to withstand incredibly durable attacks too, attacks even stronger than what Susanoo has been hit with.

      give me one example of your statement being anywhere near correct, sure TBM might be on par with ribcage state susanoo, but it is nowhere near comparable to complete, final and especially not perfect susanoo. perfect susanoo managed to withstand naruto's six path senjutsu enhanced tailed beast bombs without being fully destroyed, it was weakened but that's all the damage it did. and that was Sasuke's susanoo which imo is much weaker then Madara's

      so once again give me an example of TBM withstanding something which is confirmed to be able to break through the upper levels of susanoo
      
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    • as far as i can remember, did the PS got ever destroyed except for the last attack of sasuke and naruto? because from how the manga looked, kaguyas punches pushed sasukes PS away but didnt really seemd to break it ^_^

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    • GreatestSin wrote: as far as i can remember, did the PS got ever destroyed except for the last attack of sasuke and naruto? because from how the manga looked, kaguyas punches pushed sasukes PS away but didnt really seemd to break it ^_^

      exactly, and that's why TBM can't compare to Perfect Susanoo on a level of defense

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    • Madara said that his PS was on tailed beast level. Now, can u tell me what kind of power is Naruto using? Just because it's chakra and u can see through it doesn't mean it's weaker. Talking about overall power (which include defensive powers too). And if it's enchanced with senjutsu it's defensive power are even greater as we know that sage mode increased Naruto's durablity. Gara's defence is sand controled by chakra, but susano and Tailed beast mode (Naruto's version) is pure chakra, with TBM being stronger in combo with Sage mode.

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    • sasuke's susanoo was getting ripped apart in that last fight with naruto so I wouldnt call it "absolute defence"

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    • GerizzyYMcrew wrote: sasuke's susanoo was getting ripped apart in that last fight with naruto so I wouldnt call it "absolute defence"

      it got slightly damaged I wouldn't call that being ripped apart

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    • @Uchiahmasters In chapter 696, pages 7 and 10, Sasuke's and Naruto's PS and TBM were both equally damaged. So I'm pretty sure TBM's defensive capabilities is on par with PS

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    • @UchihaMasters TBM is vastly superior to ribcage susanoo, it's literally not even comparable. Sasuke's ribcage susanoo couldn't withstand Mei's steam while Gyuki could withstand Son's lava although he was burned however it never pierced his skin and neither did Saiken's acid. Gyuki showed the ability to withstand not only the backlash of his own TBB but also the combined force of the TT's TBB and Kurama was able to block the TT's TBB laser with it's tails and only six of them were destroyed I believe but Kurama's main body was unharmed. Madara's Susanoo was stated to have power that rivals the Tailed Beasts when he entered his Complete Body Susanoo and Hashirama has been seen fighting on even ground and even defeating him using his Wood Golem. Both Naruto and Sasuke's TBM and Susanoo were destroyed at the same time by Obito when he slammed them both into the ground with his TSBs. While later Naruto's Six Paths TBM and Sasuke's Six Paths Susanoo (Which btw is certainly much stronger than Madara's Complete Body Susanoo) were shown fighting on about even ground during their final fight and were equally damaged until Sasuke supercharged himself on the Tailed Beasts' chakra and Naruto supercharged himself on natural energy and they both fired their final attacks blowing them both up at the same time.

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    • @UltimaDude I fully agree, and what is also important to note is that in chapter 697 page 5 both NARUTO and SASUKE are knocked out of TBM and PS. And this is after sasuke boosted it with TB chakra, so by logic its defense should of been a whole lot stronger, if anything TBM is superior just for the fact that it took a TB enhanced PS strongest attack to naruto out of it while naruto did it with NE.

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    • @Lengedary Super Saiya-Jin 4 I am in agreement with you except for one thing, naruto did not supercharge with NE it was one of his abilities prior to the fight it actually was sasuke who super charged hence why he said he was now the strongest.

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    • Ninjachris wrote: @Lengedary Super Saiya-Jin 4 I am in agreement with you except for one thing, naruto did not supercharge with NE it was one of his abilities prior to the fight it actually was sasuke who super charged hence why he said he was now the strongest.

      Well Naruto had absorbed a much larger amount of natural energy than usual which is why I said that. Regardless, Naruto had more disadvantages in the fight than Sasuke did. But that isn't what this is about. It's about Tenseigan vs Rinnegan which went to whether Susanoo or Tailed Beast Mode is stronger lol. But we should get back on topic, it was stated that Tenseigan and Rinnegan are equal in power I believe.

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    • ^^^ and I believe they are of equal power...and the tenseigan showed some deva path abilities as well...and truth seeking ball manifestation...if anything they are on equal terms I think

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    • Yea I believe tenseigan and rinnegan are both halves of the byakugan possessed by kayuga.

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    • ^ Hamura was said to be the first to awaken the tenseigan. And I like the rinnegan more now since I watched the movie. I believe genjutsu is a trump card over the tenseigan. Even though there's ways around getting caught in one and breaking out of it, having it at you disposal is deadly. If Toneri was fighting a rinnegan user he could easily be disposed of if he was genjutsu'd due to him havin zero experience with it. This ultimately put me in the rinnegan's corner. Also sasuke's shifting and position swap is also a thing. I just think the rinnegan gives you more of an advantage than the tenseigan, so many avenues you could take depending on your style of fighting.

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    • You don't know that how Tenseigan is with Genjutsu.. and only SOUND Genjutsu works against a Rinnegan... I would say its safe to say the same for Tenseigan.

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    • We can't say its the same because it makes sense if a Rinnegan, which can cast a genjutsu, can resist a eye jutsu since it's the highest dojutsu on the Hagorom's side. So if a dojutsu can cast a genjutsu of course it should be able to defend itself, but the tenseigan can't cast one so how would it counter it? And genjutsu manipulates the chakra flow in ones brain. How would having the tenseigan change that?

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    • ^^^ so just because a dojutsu can cast genjutsu that means one with a genjutsu based dojutsu can automatically counter it?...if thats the case then sasuke would have countered the second tsukuyomi he got hit with in volume 17

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    • Lol no. What I meant is it would make more sense if a dojutsu that can cast a genjutsu have a line of defense opposed to the tenseigan which doesn't have one. Depending on how skilled the user is with it and the level of genjutsu of course will determine if they could break it or not. Just like when Itachi and Sasuke fought with their sharingan's. They were able to see through each other's genjutsu by just being skilled with their sharingans. And I was talking about the rinnegan, not Sasuke in volume 17.

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    • doesnt make sense to me but ok

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    • I guess that also means genjutsu resistance like sakura portrayed in the last movie doesnt matter either

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    • GerizzyYMcrew wrote: I guess that also means genjutsu resistance like sakura portrayed in the last movie doesnt matter either

      That leads to another question. How was Sakura, who has never been in a genjutsu, able to resist the genjutsu bubbles while Naruto, who actually has been one and was able to resist to some degree, couldn't?

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    • UltimaDude wrote: That leads to another question. How was Sakura, who has never been in a genjutsu, able to resist the genjutsu bubbles while Naruto, who actually has been one and was able to resist to some degree, couldn't?

      Genjutsu release requires precise chakra control, which sakura has. Though i think it's obvious that naruto didn't want the Genjutsu released.

      Third Eye Soul wrote: Lol no. What I meant is it would make more sense if a dojutsu that can cast a genjutsu have a line of defense opposed to the tenseigan which doesn't have one.

      This makes no sense. Defeating genjutsu is based upon the ability to control one's own chakra and supersede the enemy's control over your senses. Having or not having a Dojutsu has little to do with it. I think Sasuke beating the mangekyou was proof of that.

      I think it's wrong to assume that we know the full Tenseigan powers. After all, we can't even be sure we know all the Rinnegan powers.

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    • Sakura has been in Genjutsu 4 times in the series, twice from Kakashi the second time she ended it like a breeze and the first time she was totally destroyed by it, the third time was at the chunin exam entrance, she ended it and was able to tell they were on the wrong floor I believe, Sasuke admitted she was better than him in genjutsu there. the 4th time was when Kabuto used the flower genjutsu to put the entire stadium to sleep, she broke it instantly. All that was in Part 1, Sakura has good Genjutsu mastery and chakra control. I hate the biznitch but I give credit where its due. Naruto on the other hand has NEVER beaten a genjutsu ever, Itachi and Kakashi totally owned his ass with Genjutsu countless times.

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    • I think @Thekillman hit the nail on the head, Kuruma could wake naruto at any time but naruto was intrigued by hinata memories and wanted to see more. If naruto has no defense against genjutsu then I don't see why sasuke would not of used it in their last fight.

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    • Ninjachris wrote: I think @Thekillman hit the nail on the head, Kuruma could wake naruto at any time but naruto was intrigued by hinata memories and wanted to see more. If naruto has no defense against genjutsu then I don't see why sasuke would not of used it in their last fight.

      PIS my friend XD but, yeah, kurama could ahve wake him up, btw, does kurama still sleep? if yes, than i see some "human"-shinobi having a chance of getting a few hits after genjutsu-ing naruto ^_^

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    • Ninjachris wrote: I think @Thekillman hit the nail on the head, Kuruma could wake naruto at any time but naruto was intrigued by hinata memories and wanted to see more. If naruto has no defense against genjutsu then I don't see why sasuke would not of used it in their last fight.

      As per Replacement Itachi versus Naruto in the Gaara rescue mission, he DOES have a defence against Genjutsu.

      I wasn't even talking about Kurama waking him, i was trying to explain that Naruto didn't want to break the genjutsu, unlike Sakura and the rest.

      As to Sasuke not using Genjutsu, i don't know but i don't think he ever did use it against a Naruto fight. I think it's because Genjutsu isn't really his specialty (unlike Itachi for example).

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