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  • Which can be translated as: "Naruto Hiden" novels: Canon(manga-like, "The Last") VS Filler-canon(anime-like) VS Non-canon(movie-like, with the exception of "The Last"?

    With the first novel of "Kakashi Hiden: Lightning in the Icy Sky" being almost fully translated in the naruto forums, we had enough time to think through as to how we're going to treat the novels.

    Please, discuss away, and let's reach the compromise in a friendly (non-violent) fashion.

    [1] Since taking it to the talk pages doesn't seem to be working, maybe a thread will?

    • Hope we can reach the solution in a civilized way.
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    • Those novels are to the manga what the filler arcs are to the anime. Both aren't created by Kishimoto, but based on what he provided through the manga. I don't see any reason at all to treat them as fully canon, when we don't do that for the filler, the movies or anything else that is not the manga.

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    • I would also like to use this opportunity to encourage someone who is capable of editing the infoboxes to add in the media icon for "novel", so that characters and techniques, which made a debut in the novels" could be created and (techniques) would appear in the respective infoboxes of the users.

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    • at this point it really doesn't matter if they are by kishimoto or not.

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    • I disagree, Praise. Unless they spring from Kishimoto's imagination, then they are not canon. The filler arcs and these novels are little better than fanfiction.

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    • Sadly, all we get is he's "Heavily involved" with the novels, and I guess we'll just have to be the judges ourselves.

      Series is over and as long as they stay as canon as possible I guess they are given one is about Gaara falling in love and even the Shikamaru one is basically a ShikaTema version of "the Last"

      I seriously can't tell

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    • yes !

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    • http://www.narutoforums.com/showpost.php?p=53151074&postcount=185

      Given this announcement I guess they are canon.

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    • Welp, guess they are indeed canon then.

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    • How does that make them canon?

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    • Ah so we know timeline wise how the novels fit in with the canon.

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    • We knew that before. The only new information is that Sakura Hiden takes place after The Last. Makes me wonder if the same goes for the other novels, considering Akatsuki doesn't exist anymore...?

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    • Perhaps the Akatsuki novel's timeline is before Part II or it could be the novel version of Akatsuki storyline that appeared in Storm Revolution game. Let's wait for further information to see that.

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    • Yay canon!

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    • Elveonora wrote: Yay canon!

      Why? How? Because they fit into the canon timeline? Do you know what else fits into the canon timeline? Fillers. Even the cutscenes from the games do that.

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    • You sure know how to ruin the party man.

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    • Strangely enough, I agree with Seelentau about treating them like filler. But the timeline info does cause some confusion about this, that's why I'm pretty sure we can treat is as confirmation. But maybe not... The hell with this >.<

      But this is confirmation that the novels take place in the "Blank Period" isn't it? And the Blank Period is canon.

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    • Technically all naruto stuff is canon, most people that watch the show or read the books don't look so far into it as to what is canon, non-canon, filler etc. So either way this goes it should not really make anyone mad. P.S. My vote is for it being treated as filler though.

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    • They are part of the Naruto Project no way they aren't canon.

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    • Why would the blank period be canon, Omojuze?

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    • Elveonora wrote: They are part of the Naruto Project no way they aren't canon.

      My vote was only based on what other users are saying. I haven't looked to much into it. That play was part of the naruto project though no? Do we add that crap as canon?

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    • Seelentau wrote: Why would the blank period be canon, Omojuze?

      Somebody (I'm sorry, can't remember who exactly) told me that "Blank Period" is the official term for the timeline between 699 and 700 and was provided as an official source. Was the person wrong?

      I myself didn't believe such a thing at first though.

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    • Yes, that's true, the period between those chapters is called blank period in the media.

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    • So what you are saying Seel is that only chapter 700 is canon and The Last and so on aren't even though they lead up to it? :D

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    • Elveonora wrote: So what you are saying Seel is that only chapter 700 is canon and The Last and so on aren't even though they lead up to it? :D

      Without official confirmation, it is really hard to say. The movie was confirmed to be a part of canon (Chapter 699.5) though.

      Seelentau wrote: Yes, that's true, the period between those chapters is called blank period in the media.

      Then wouldn't it make sense that every event in the Blank Period should be considered canon. I'm really scratching my head about this. :)

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    • The current anime filler lead up to the Chunin graduation as well, and yet we don't consider them canon, do we?

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    • Maybe we should though. The Konoha history filler stuff turned out canon.

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    • Don't forget that Torune's filler became canon to a degree thanks to DB4.

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    • Umishiru wrote: Don't forget that Torune's filler became canon to a degree thanks to DB4.

      and the Pakura(Maki) one too. And maybe the Seven Swordsmen, which haven't been translated I believe.

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    • And that magically makes the anime fillers canon as well, okay. Then let's make the movies canon too, since one movie is canon and another one has a novel, and since some novels are canon, all of them somehow are. :)

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    • Seelentau wrote: And that magically makes the anime fillers canon as well, okay. Then let's make the movies canon too, since one movie is canon and another one has a novel, and since some novels are canon, all of them somehow are. :)

      No it doesn't. Just an example.

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    • See how it would be if we'd follow that logic? We need a common denominator and usually, that is the manga. Everything that's manga (+ databook, ofc) is canon. Everything else isn't. If something that isn't canon gets references in the manga, it becomes canon. If something that wasn't canon becomes canon, it doesn't make other stuff canon as well.

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    • Man are you taking things to an extreme. Well off to another manga or something. I see this debate getting nastier and I am not getting in the middle of it.

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    • Well, what do you suggest? If we make the novels canon, we can make the anime fillers canon as well.

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    • @Seelentau

      NO! NO! NO!

      That means that Shino filler is canon too. Preserve his dignity dammit!

      The only thing I'd approve of is that Ganryu guy's story being canon.

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    • Which Shino filler? Where he laughs? Yup, that would be canon as well.

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    • Shippuden #317

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    • @Shakhmoot

      No I meant the one where he laughs. The one where Shino fights Torune is fine. The one he laughs is painful to watch.

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    • I would agree, but given that they used CANON CHAPTERS and MOVIE/EVENT (NH Wedding) to mingle the novels into the timeline, I would say these are as canon as they can get now.

      NO OTHER "FILLER" HAS BEEN GIVEN THIS "TIMELINE" TREATMENT. They put it into the canon timeline similar to how "The Last" was, so unless heard otherwise, they are in fact canon

      No need to be crybabies about it.

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    • I'm on the fence honestly about the novels being canon. Kishi has to come out and tell us before I fully accept them as canon.

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    • Mastergeek wrote: I'm on the fence honestly about the novels being canon. Kishi has to come out and tell us before I fully accept them as canon.

      come out of the closet kishi. XD. anyways they should be considered.

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    • Yes. Kishimoto has nothing better to do than to come from the closet, sit on your lap, sweep your hair and whisper into your ear what you know to be true yet regardless want to hear.

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    • They are implied to be canon. The are part of the new generation project, a project kishimoto is heavily invested in.

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    • That doesn't make them canon, either.

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    • @Elvenora

      Glad you agree with us! ^^

      @Archangel489

      On this planet of mine "implied" does not=confirmed.

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    • Elveonora wrote: Yes. Kishimoto has nothing better to do than to come from the closet, sit on your lap, sweep your hair and whisper into your ear what you know to be true yet regardless want to hear.

      I'm actually surprised we're back to having this discussion after the last pissing match it became.

      But I don't think this is the first time you've provided that exact same visual when dealing with canon.

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    • What is there to be dealt with? The Naruto Project stuff is all canon. If it weren't a videogame would be part of it.

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    • It's not all canon, why would you think that?

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    • I'm not paranoid enough to think there's some conspiracy going on regarding non-canon material being presented as canon.

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    • They aren't presenting non-canon material as canon. To be honest, I think they don't even care about canonicity.

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    • In my opinion, everything is canon in its own right. For example, someone who only watches the movies would consider them to be canon: the same for someone who only plays the video games. Therefore, the novels are canon in their own right.

      Hint: C0DA in TES is basically your own canon in that universe. The same could be applied here.

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    • That doesn't help, though. I mean, everyone can think of canon and not canon however they want, but this is about how we present information.

      And I still want to know how the novels are in any way different from the uncanon anime fillers.

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    • like sajuuk i have also stated that it's pretty much all canon. all of this info can make sense if you thought about it. this is my last edit cause i don't like forums lol.

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    • Great Hydaelyn we are actually having this debate again.

      Ok here is a question that requires an actual answer. What does the information from the books not being canon means for that information in that said book? Will character information go into a character's article or will it just stay in that non-canon main article?

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    • I think we should simply add another section to the character articles (below the movie section) and write down what they did in each novel there.

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    • Seelentau
      Seelentau removed this reply because:
      There's a reason for the like button, yknow ;)
      18:22, March 20, 2015
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    • Seelentau wrote: I think we should simply add another section to the character articles (below the movie section) and write down what they did in each novel there.

      Basically what Tau said. Note it down like any other section would be noted.

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    • Better idea. Treat the "Naruto Project" stuff like manga filler and stick them where they would logically fit, I believe they would go in the Blank Period section or whatever the fudge thats called.

      That way, everybody wins and we don't even have to entertain the potential notion that anime filler gets moved to their own section.

      And there is quite literally no way this can go wrong unless people actually want to argue because as stated, doing it this way is exactly what we already do to anime filler.

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    • But the Naruto Project also consists of stuff like a stage play and other things. Are those canon as well?

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    • Is the stage play book format that would logically fit with the "manga filler" I mentioned?

      Because I foresee people being difficult, to wit. If it is in a book format that requires reading and would logically make sense as 'manga filler', then it is treated as such.

      Because I'm sure half a function brain will work out a stage play is neither it is fine to treat it as a lovely side project. Like nobody assumes Lion King on Ice has jack all to do with the Lion King films.

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    • I think it's about the original manga or so. But my point is that, since not everything from the Naruto Project is some sort of book, the whole Naruto Project can't be said to be canon.

      And again, how are the novels different from the filler anime in any way?

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    • I see you are going to be intentionally difficult with this. Fun.

      What I'm trying to do is to get the novels treated as filler same as anime filler. That is why info in it will show up where it fits. Done exclude anime filler from the articles? No we don't unless something changed without me noticing.

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    • In the grand scheme of canon and such, I understand everyone's confusion, but given the timeline announcement and it being a "officially apart" of the Naruto New Age Project that Kishi is "heavily involved with", that's some serious ammo in the novel's corner.

      Mod edit: Removing unwanted hostility.

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    • ^let's reach the compromise in a friendly (non-violent) fashion.

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    • Which is what I'm trying to do. Stick it where it fits call it out as from a book and boom done. No more need to argue this crap anymore.

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    • TheUltimate3 wrote: I see you are going to be intentionally difficult with this. Fun.

      What I'm trying to do is to get the novels treated as filler same as anime filler. That is why info in it will show up where it fits. Done exclude anime filler from the articles? No we don't unless something changed without me noticing.

      I'm not "difficult", I just asked a simple question. The novels are semi-canon and if we add the information from fillers to the article's main body, then we can do the same with the novels content. I have nothing against that. However, I can also see the novels getting the same treatment as the movies. In my opinion, it's a nice way to handle publications that are not manga/anime.

      And Shock Dragoon, telling others to shut up and then complaining about others being rude... classic.

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    • The only person being rude so far I've noticed is you Seelentau, everyone states their opinion nicely but you've been having this condescending attitude this whole time toward Ultimate and Others.

      "Just repeat to yourself it's just a show, I should really just relax" -MST3K

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    • Shock Dragoon, lose the attitude. You aren't contributing to this discussion. If you can't be civil, then simply don't post. Otherwise, I will have to give you proper warnings which could lead to your account being blocked from using the wiki.

      Also, that'll be a general warning to all that the thread may be closed if people can't be civil or reach a conclusion without repeating themselves 500 times. :)

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    • Every post I made actually contributed to the discussion at hand and didn't attack anyone directly. If anyone feels attacked, I'm sorry for them, that was not intentional.

      So how do we handle the information? I'm all for creating articles for everything, the only problem is that we won't have pictures. As for the location in the articles, who's in favor of handling it anime-style and who prefers handling it movie-style?

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    • Seelentau wrote: Every post I made actually contributed to the discussion at hand and didn't attack anyone directly. If anyone feels attacked, I'm sorry for them, that was not intentional.

      Indeed, I just wanted to let people know that incivility in general from anyone would just result in the thread being closed. Don't worry, it wasn't directed at any particular person :)

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    • I find a whole load of the people pointing out which they are and aren't comfortable being canon to be humorous.

      On topic:

      Way I see it: you can KIND OF...have called the filler canon on the grounds that certain lengths of time pass following certain arcs. Like remember the flashback of Naruto teaching Konohamaru the Rasengan? Who knows when the hell that happened.

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    • That happened before Naruto left to train at the end of part 1.

      By the way, we would need a "novel" checkbox for the infoboxes as well.

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    • Seelentau wrote: That happened before Naruto left to train at the end of part 1.

      By the way, we would need a "novel" checkbox for the infoboxes as well.

      .*cough* Snapper is lazy *cough*. I hope he'll manage to do 'em soon.

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    • So,what is the result, is it canon or not?

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    • It's filler-canon, as I explained abover. However, if you want to see it as completely canon for whatever reason, you're free to do so.

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    • The Hiden novels, at least, should be included in the character articles in appropriate sections, ordered chronologically, and should have their own articles with plot summaries. Novel characters and techniques should get their own articles, whether or not they're illustrated.

      Novel should obviously be added as an infobox cateogry along with manga, anime, movie, and video games.

      The Naruto Stage Play is an adaptation, not an original story. It should have its own article with information, the cast and crew info, and a summary. Characters appearing in the stage play should have a section (other media -> movies / novels / live) noting that appearance, their actor, and probably an image.

      Seems like a no-brainer to me.

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    • I dont understand, if I am not mistaken the plot of the last was not written by kishimoto but rather edited by him, and the movie was declared canon till an official advertisement stated that the movie was chapter 669.5 (I still remember the discussions in this page).

      Then, isnt this timeline they released basically stating that Kakashi hiden is chapter 699.2 (or something smarter), Shikamaru hiden 699.4, Sakura hiden 699.6, and so on?

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    • Not really. The movie was explicitely stated to be basically "chapter 699.5". Someone could create a timeline which shows the events shortly prior to and after the first timeskip and include the current filler arc. That wouldn't make the filler arc any more canon, it would just show when it happens.

      Long story short: A timeline doesn't make things canon. References in the manga do.

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    • I found a translation of the Sakura Hiden image here. So far, it seems the chronological order of events is Chapter 699 > Kakashi Hiden > Shikamaru Hiden > The Last: Naruto the Movie > Sakura Hiden.

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    • WindStar7125 wrote: I found a translation of the Sakura Hiden image here. So far, it seems the chronological order of events is Chapter 699 > Kakashi Hiden > Shikamaru Hiden > The Last: Naruto the Movie > Sakura Hiden.

      Over/Under on the "Sasuke-kun" count in this novel?

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    • Yes, but we knew all that before, except for when Sakura Hiden takes place.

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    • Looks like it takes place after the Last.

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    • Seelentau wrote: Not really. The movie was explicitely stated to be basically "chapter 699.5". Someone could create a timeline which shows the events shortly prior to and after the first timeskip and include the current filler arc. That wouldn't make the filler arc any more canon, it would just show when it happens.

      Long story short: A timeline doesn't make things canon. References in the manga do.

      You say someone like it was created by a random person, but that image has kishimotos drawings in it (and I assume his approval), doenst that make it official?

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    • When they say Sakura Hiden is set after the Last, do they mean its set after Naruto marries Hinata or when it skips years ahead when Boruto and Himawari are kids?

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    • Nototherbutme wrote: You say someone like it was created by a random person, but that image has kishimotos drawings in it (and I assume his approval), doenst that make it official?

      Anime fillers have characters created by Kishimoto as well, does that make them official?

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    • Okay...

      I think we have to sit back one of these days and redefine to ourselves what "canon" is...

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    • Nototherbutme
      Nototherbutme removed this reply because:
      mistake
      16:11, March 21, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • I agree entirely with TTF, except for the fact that The Last isn't canon. It was said to be a chapter in movie format, basically.

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    • Yeah, I know you agree with Foxie. He only said the Last wasn't canon because at that time, that was before the movie was confirmed to be.

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    • WindStar7125 wrote: Okay...

      I think we have to sit back one of these days and redefine to ourselves what "canon" is...

      It used to be so easy in the past, just declaring everything non manga non canon, but then the last came and logic went mad and some people got affected, I personally believe Elveonora is not the same since then :)

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    • Sarutobii2 wrote: When they say Sakura Hiden is set after the Last, do they mean its set after Naruto marries Hinata or when it skips years ahead when Boruto and Himawari are kids?

      You don't think that after Naruto and Hinata kissed each other in the movie end, then they got married in the next day and immediately they had their children in the day after, true?! They need some time for that :)

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    • 2 weeks to conceive truly and 9 months to be born. So it indeed took them time to have their first and second kid.. not to mention he had to propose first then they got married after all that.

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    • Sarutobii2 wrote: When they say Sakura Hiden is set after the Last, do they mean its set after Naruto marries Hinata or when it skips years ahead when Boruto and Himawari are kids?

      It's going to be like: Chapter 699 -> [Several/Some] months later -> Kakashi's Hidden -> Sasuke leaves Konona -> 2 years later -> Shikamaru Hiden -> THE LAST -> [Several/Some] months later -> Sakura Hiden -> Konoha Hiden -> Naruto and Hinata's Wedding -> More than 10 years later -> Chapter 700.

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    • Can I just say that Naruto being an iSheep is confirmed canon in Chapter 700?

      All your arguments are invalid.

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    • I think we,should just say that kishimoto-San should be the one to see the canon so that he could evaluate the persons creation on what he created for Naruto and on his story if it's acceptable.

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    • Has anyone here been reading the prologue of "Sakura Hiden"?

      Her thoughts for Sasuke are pretty interesting.

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    • Seelentau
      Seelentau removed this reply because:
      Keep it clean please.
      12:51, March 24, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • Seelentau
      Seelentau removed this reply because:
      Keep it clean please.
      12:51, March 24, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • I love the Naruto manga

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    • RealFredGee23 wrote: I love the Naruto manga

      Okay. There is about to be more coming out in less than a month. :)

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    • Stay on topic please. ;)

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    • By the way, the first novel in the series "Kakashi Hiden" has been completely translated into English for over a day now.

      Has anyone read it yet? It basically proves that Sasuke left the village in Chapter 699 a few months after his final battle with Naruto rather than just a few days afterwards like many of us initially thought.

      Quite an impatient guy to not want a freshly made Zetsu arm despite only staying for perhaps around 5% longer in Konoha, but I suppose it is more of a matter of pride to Sasuke as well as taking a somewhat more difficult path in his journey for redemption as he walks the world to atone for his sins.

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    • FF-Suzaku wrote: The Hiden novels, at least, should be included in the character articles in appropriate sections, ordered chronologically, and should have their own articles with plot summaries. Novel characters and techniques should get their own articles, whether or not they're illustrated.

      Novel should obviously be added as an infobox cateogry along with manga, anime, movie, and video games.

      The Naruto Stage Play is an adaptation, not an original story. It should have its own article with information, the cast and crew info, and a summary. Characters appearing in the stage play should have a section (other media -> movies / novels / live) noting that appearance, their actor, and probably an image.

      Seems like a no-brainer to me.

      I personally wouldn't have a problem with this. We don't have to consider them to be fully canon, but they can still appear in characters' articles in chronological order (under "Blank Period"), correct?

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    • So it's canon and will be added to each characters page or nah?

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    • Not fully canon, but probably should be added to the characters' articles.

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    • Got it.

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    • WindStar7125 wrote: So far, it seems the chronological order of events is Chapter 699 > Kakashi Hiden > Shikamaru Hiden > The Last: Naruto the Movie > Sakura Hiden.

      (Barring any disagreements that the novels should be noted in the characters' respective articles)

      So due to this timeline we have, there's still the question on how the novels should be integrated into characters' articles. Do you all think we should go with FF-Suzaku's suggestion, where the Hiden novels are ordered chronologically by the Blank Period timeline (and the novels that aren't provided in the timeline, for instance, are presumably in an individual Novels section) like this:

      • Background
      • Part I
        • (Whatever happens in PI)
        • Timeskip
      • Part II
        • (Whatever happens in PII)
        • Blank Period
          • (Extra contents of 699)
          • (Naruto Hiden)
          • The Last: Naruto the Movie
      • Epilogue
      • Movies and (Other) Novels

      Note: The Hiden novels will go before or after The Last in characters' articles depending on the timeline.

      Or Seelentau's suggestion, where all the novels, Hiden or not, should be their own section despite the provided timeline, like this:

      • Background
      • Part I
        • (Whatever happens in PI)
        • Timeskip
      • Part II
        • (Whatever happens in PII)
        • Blank Period
          • (Extra contents of 699)
          • The Last: Naruto the Movie
      • Epilogue
      • Movies
      • Novels

      What do you all think? They likely won't be considered fully canon, but should still be noted... (And we do have a lot of paragraphs integrated in characters' articles that start with "In the anime," indicating they're filler canon and all...)

      And by the light, this is a big comment...

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    • I prefer FF-Suzaku's suggestion.

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    • Unsurprisingly, I like my suggestion, too.

      We could maybe take a page from Wowpedia and create some simple in-line headers that say, "This section concerns content exclusive to the anime," "This section concerns content exclusive to a novel," "This section concerns content exclusive to a movie," and "This section concerns content exclusive to a work that is considered non-canon." They could even have cute little icons as visual indicators (a television, a book, a film reel, etc.).

      Using Naruto as an example, and going super-granular to include minor events that would take up at most a paragraph, his article would go like this (superscript designates a section with an in-line header):

      • Background
      • Part I
        • Prologue — Land of Waves
        • Chūnin Exams
        • Konoha Crush
        • Search for Tsunade
        • Land of Tea Escort Mission anime
        • Sasuke Recovery Mission
        • Original Anime Arcs anime
      • Interlude
        • Training with Jiraiya
        • In Naruto's Footsteps: The Friends' Paths anime
      • Part II
        • Kazekage Rescue Mission
        • Tenchi Bridge Reconnaissance Mission
        • Twelve Guardian Ninja anime
        • Akatsuki Suppression Mission
        • Three-Tails' Appearance anime
        • Itachi Pursuit Mission
        • Tale of Jiraiya the Gallant
        • Six-Tails Unleashed anime
        • Pain's Assault
        • Past Arc: The Locus of Konoha anime
        • Five Kage Summit
        • Power anime
        • Paradise Life on a Boat anime
        • Fourth Shinobi World War: Countdown
        • Fourth Shinobi World War: Confrontation
        • Fourth Shinobi World War: Climax
        • Birth of the Ten-Tails' Jinchūriki
        • Kaguya Ōtsutsuki Strikes
      • Blank Period
        • Aftermath of the Fourth Shinobi World War
        • Kakashi Hiden: Lightning in the Icy Sky novel
        • Sasuke's Departure
        • Shikamaru Hiden: A Cloud Drifting in Silent Darkness novel
        • The Last: Naruto the Movie movie
        • Naruto Special Bangaihen: After The Last
        • Naruto and Hinata's Wedding movie
        • Sakura Hiden: Thoughts of Love Riding Upon a Spring Breeze novel
      • Epilogue
        • Five Kage Summit
        • Naruto Gaiden: The Seventh Hokage and the Scarlet Spring
        • Boruto: Naruto the Movie movie
      • In other media
        • Movies
          • List of movies non-canon
        • Novels
          • List of novels non-canon
        • Audio drama
          • List of audio dramas non-canon
        • Video games
          • List of video games non-canon
        • Live action
          • Naruto: Live Spectacle non-canon
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    • I agree with FF-Suzaku's organization. It does not make sense to put things under a Part I/Part II heading when they don't happen during said Part.

      Although I wonder what the purpose of the separate Novels section is? Is The Wolf that Howled at the Sun non-canon, or is it because of the movie tie-ins?

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    • Snapper2 wrote: I agree with FF-Suzaku's organization. It does not make sense to put things under a Part I/Part II heading when they don't happen during said Part.

      Although I wonder what the purpose of the separate Novels section is? Is The Wolf that Howled at the Sun non-canon, or is it because of the movie tie-ins?

      Most of the novels are just novelizations of other material, so they probably don't need to be much more than a listing of books they appeared in.

      I'm not sure about whether or not The Wolf that Howled at the Sun is canon. I think it could easily be put under the Part II heading on Sasuke's article, but I don't know enough about the book to know if it overtly contradicts the official flow of events, which is why most of the movies couldn't possibly be canon.

      I'm also curious about how different the Blood Prison novel is from the film, as some elements from that story are referenced in the Hiden series, but they don't seem to match the movie's version of events and the novel technically has a different title from the movie. As I said elsewhere, Blood Prison, The Wolf that Howled at the Sun, and Tales of a Gutsy Ninja are unlike the other novelizations in that they feature original art by Kishimoto and share cover layouts with the Naruto Hiden novels, which makes it seem like those somehow stand apart.

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    • FF-Suzaku wrote: I'm not sure about whether or not The Wolf that Howled at the Sun is canon. I think it could easily be put under the Part II heading on Sasuke's article, but I don't know enough about the book to know if it overtly contradicts the official flow of events, which is why most of the movies couldn't possibly be canon.

      It does not. The story is basically Sasuke going to a village from where Itachi got his eye medicine. The same village was even referenced in Kakashi Hiden.
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    • FF-Suzaku wrote: Most of the novels are just novelizations of other material, so they probably don't need to be much more than a listing of books they appeared in.

      It might be better not to bother. If events of the novels are the same as the movie, the movie section can serve both purposes without being confusing.

      FF-Suzaku wrote: I'm also curious about how different the Blood Prison novel is from the film, as some elements from that story are referenced in the Hiden series, but they don't seem to match the movie's version of events and the novel technically has a different title from the movie.

      I can't imagine it's too different, otherwise it's not serving its purpose of getting people to go see the movie or vice versa.

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    • My only post on this topic is that any change here be reflected in the wiki's manual of style guidelines.

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    • The Blood prison novel will be released here soon, I'll buy it and see what it says.

      As for the Jiraiya novel, that one has nothing to do with the Narutoverse.

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    • Snapper2 wrote: I agree with FF-Suzaku's organization. It does not make sense to put things under a Part I/Part II heading when they don't happen during said Part.

      Although I wonder what the purpose of the separate Novels section is? Is The Wolf that Howled at the Sun non-canon, or is it because of the movie tie-ins?

      Snapper2 wrote:

      FF-Suzaku wrote: Most of the novels are just novelizations of other material, so they probably don't need to be much more than a listing of books they appeared in.

      It might be better not to bother. If events of the novels are the same as the movie, the movie section can serve both purposes without being confusing.

      Looks like you're an advocate of non-canon Movies and Novels in the same section, Snapper. Like this, I assume?

      So it seems this is the ideal organization, with the minor edit of Movies and Novels being in the same section:

      Proposed Organization of Headings in Character Articles
      • Background
      • Part I
        • Prologue — Land of Waves
        • Chūnin Exams
        • Konoha Crush
        • Search for Tsunade
        • Land of Tea Escort Mission anime
        • Sasuke Recovery Mission
        • Original Anime Arcs anime
      • Interlude
        • Training with Jiraiya
        • In Naruto's Footsteps: The Friends' Paths anime
      • Part II
        • Kazekage Rescue Mission
        • Tenchi Bridge Reconnaissance Mission
        • Twelve Guardian Ninja anime
        • Akatsuki Suppression Mission
        • Three-Tails' Appearance anime
        • Itachi Pursuit Mission
        • Tale of Jiraiya the Gallant
        • Six-Tails Unleashed anime
        • Pain's Assault
        • Past Arc: The Locus of Konoha anime
        • Five Kage Summit
        • Power anime
        • Paradise Life on a Boat anime
        • Fourth Shinobi World War: Countdown
        • Fourth Shinobi World War: Confrontation
        • Fourth Shinobi World War: Climax
        • Birth of the Ten-Tails' Jinchūriki
        • Kaguya Ōtsutsuki Strikes
      • Blank Period
        • Aftermath of the Fourth Shinobi World War
        • Kakashi Hiden: Lightning in the Icy Sky novel
        • Sasuke's Departure
        • Shikamaru Hiden: A Cloud Drifting in Silent Darkness novel
        • The Last: Naruto the Movie movie
        • Naruto Special Bangaihen: After The Last
        • Naruto and Hinata's Wedding movie
        • Sakura Hiden: Thoughts of Love Riding Upon a Spring Breeze novel
      • Epilogue
        • Five Kage Summit
        • Naruto Gaiden: The Seventh Hokage and the Scarlet Spring
        • Boruto: Naruto the Movie movie
      • In other media
        • Movies and Novels
          • List of movies and novels non-canon
        • Audio drama
          • List of audio dramas non-canon
        • Video games
          • List of video games non-canon
        • Live action
          • Naruto: Live Spectacle non-canon

      Okay then...

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    • I went ahead and applied FF-Suzaku's organizational format to about a hundred articles (bout 2 AM for me). I personally like it; it addresses the "Is the arc In Naruto's Footsteps: The Friends' Paths Part I or Part II?" dispute and organizes everything nicely.

      @SuperSajuuk, updated Manual of Style (and it's quite a lot of stuff I added there...).

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    • Thank you a lot WindStar.

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    • WindStar7125 wrote: Looks like you're an advocate of non-canon Movies and Novels in the same section, Snapper. Like this, I assume?

      What I actually meant is that there's no reason to bring up the novels at all, assuming the events of the novels are the same as the movies.

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    • Ah, okay I get that. But what I meant was there are some novels, like this, that aren't the same as movies, and in Sasuke's article, there was already a "Movies and Novels" section that was not separated.

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    • If The Wolf that Howled at the Sun continues to be considered separate from the animanga, then fine for those handful of characters. However, the novel doesn't appear to conflict with anything?

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    • I'm not sure if it does conflict with anything. Like others, I don't know much about the novel. I see it was already placed in the non-canon section of the article just to be safe.

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    • The Jinraiden novel takes place in the expanded Narutoverse, or to be more specific in the one that Akira Higashiyama created for his novels. Jinraiden, Blood Prison and Kakashi Hiden all take place there. And that's exactly why I dislike seeing the novel plots in the main space of an article. If we add the Kakashi Hiden plot, we'd also have to add Jinraiden and Blood Prison, since they're equally semi-canon. However, Jinraiden is almost a fanfic and Blood Prison is based on a movie. If we add those, what speaks against adding the other movie novels? And in the end, we suddenly have everything in the main body of the article.

      Also, what do we do with the canonicity of the mini series? Is it written by Kishimoto? If yes, I think it should be completely canon, just like part II is.

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    • Seelentau wrote: Those novels are to the manga what the filler arcs are to the anime.

      You said this^ earlier. The novels are just as semi-canon as the filler arcs, the latter of which we integrate in character articles with the canon material.

      Seelentau wrote: The Jinraiden novel takes place in the expanded Narutoverse, or to be more specific in the one that Akira Higashiyama created for his novels. Jinraiden, Blood Prison and Kakashi Hiden all take place there. And that's exactly why I dislike seeing the novel plots in the main space of an article. If we add the Kakashi Hiden plot, we'd also have to add Jinraiden and Blood Prison, since they're equally semi-canon.

      Here's the thing about you disliking seeing the novel plots in the main space: Like you said, the novels are semi-canon just like the filler arcs are "filler-canon" or so. Like I said, the novels are semi-canon just like the fillers are. If we have to remove one semi-canon plot (the novels), wouldn't we have to remove the other semi-canon plots featured in the anime as well? And yet, we integrate the anime fillers in the mainspace with paragraphs with the phrase "In the anime" or so. We're not considering them to be fully canon at all.

      Seelentau wrote: However, Jinraiden is almost a fanfic and Blood Prison is based on a movie. If we add those, what speaks against adding the other movie novels? And in the end, we suddenly have everything in the main body of the article.

      My question to you is the same question Snapper had to me: Does Jinraiden appear to conflict with anything? Regarding Blood Prison: The difference between Blood Prison and other movies, from what I know, is that FF-Suzaku pointed out that while other novelizations of movies are the exact same as the movie, Blood Prison is not, and is different to seemingly fit the semi-canon timeline Kakashi Hiden presents. So I'm not certain that means we'd have to add the other movie novels to the main body of the article when they're the same. It's probably best not to bother, if in fact they are the exact same.

      Seelentau wrote: Also, what do we do with the canonicity of the mini series? Is it written by Kishimoto? If yes, I think it should be completely canon, just like part II is.

      According to FF-Suzaku's organization of things, it's after chapter 700 and before the Boruto movie. Not sure if it is written by Kishi, but if it's not, it's just as semi-canon as the novels and the filler arcs we've integrated in articles thus far.

      The novels are not fully canon, but just because we put them in the main body of the article does not mean they are, given how we integrate anime-only arcs in the main body as well. And I'm sure many people would hate us ignoring the timeline presented to us and putting all novels, including Hiden, in the non-canon section of the article like you suggested. They gave us the timeline, and we act accordingly. We have to note everything Naruto-related, no? It's not our job to ignore that.

      And not to try and cause controversy again, but we didn't ignore an erroneous databook (which I'm sure Kishi didn't write all by himself), so we should ignore the timeline? Because that is basically what we are doing if we put all novels in a separate section like you said.

      And it is quite strange how you kudos a post claiming we should order in Hiden novels chronologically, then show dislike towards that action being performed. But hey, new knowledge tends to change minds, don't it? (And to point out, I'm not trying to show animosity, that was all just my observation)

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    • Correct, Blood Prison is not just a novelization of the movie. It's seemingly based on Akira Higashiyama's original screenplay for the film. I don't know how it differs from the film, as I haven't read it, but I do know that the references to it in the Hiden series indicate clear differences from the movie version, which means that the movie version obviously isn't part of the same canon.

      You say the Hiden novels part of an "expanded universe," but so are the original anime stories. And these novels are being touted as a continuation of the manga series. I would go so far as to say they're more canon than the filler. They should be considered canon at least so long as no other media comes out and retcons them.

      If we create in-line tags to address which sections describe content from the anime, novels, and films, it solves the issue, because people can look at the tag and decide if they want to consider it canon or not.

      As for Naruto Gaiden, yes, it's by Kishimoto. We don't know where it fits in with the movie, but they'll probably both take place after chapter 700.

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    • Oh well, do what you want. I'm tired of discussing every little thing.

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    • I believe that manga,naruto gaiden, databook, and also naruto hiden should be considered as primary 100% canons, that timeline was the final hint for me, and also Kishimoto illustrated the pics for the light novels. Secondary canon would be the anime fillers. Tertiary canons, movies, other novels, and ova.

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    • WindStar7125
      WindStar7125 removed this reply because:
      dp
      19:52, April 1, 2015
      This reply has been removed
    • FF-Suzaku wrote: If we create in-line tags to address which sections describe content from the anime, novels, and films, it solves the issue, because people can look at the tag and decide if they want to consider it canon or not.

      While that is a viable option, we already have (or should have) phrases at the beginning of paragraphs that denote whether or not an event happened in the anime, novels, and movies, for instance, "In the anime," or "(This character) makes an appearance in this novel/film."

      Though, your idea is still worth looking into.

      @FF-Suzaku, check my sandbox and search for the "Headings in articles" bit. Expand the tab and you'll see I've gone ahead and made a start to your idea with the in-line tags.

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    • FF-Suzaku, I created the in-line tags here in this link. Not sure if they'd be agreed on being used, but meh.

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    • What would be "non-canon"?

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    • That didn't answer my question. I assume "non-canon" means Video Game, but if there's a dedicated label for Anime and Novel and Movie, why have a general label for just the one?

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    • In FF-Suzaku's comment, what I just linked to, Movies & Novels (unless stated otherwise), Video games, Audio Drama and Live action are all non-canon. Basically, the entire "In other media" covers the non-canon material (which kinda doesn't warrant the non-canon tag then....)

      EDIT: Though, the non-canon tag can still be used, maybe under the "In other media" section once, rather than a repeated amount of times like in FF-Suzaku's comment...

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    • I believe a prevailing philosophy for the wiki is that it make no declarations about what is and is not canon, at least within the articles. Some things need to be separated from others for simplicity's sake, but never for (stated) reasons of canonicity.

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    • Okay... so would the anime, novel, and movie tags suffice?

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    • Might as well make a video game tag also.

      There would, of course, be only one template, with Anime/Novel/Movie/Game needing to be specified each time.

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    • Ok. But I'll make it when I get home.

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    • We could also just use plain font, maybe altering its size and color. That way there's one less asset to load on the page.

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    • What are the chances of these events in the novels being referenced in Naruto Gaiden? Or in Boruto: The Movie?

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    • Snapper2 wrote: We could also just use plain font, maybe altering its size and color. That way there's one less asset to load on the page.

      oops... too late

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    • Now with the idea of listing everything that appeared in the novels (but appeared in the anime, manga, etc. as well). We are doing that, right?

      And if we are, maybe It's just me, but there seems to be errors with pages like Sharingan using this, could anyone check it out?

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    • Omojuze wrote: Now with the idea of listing everything that appeared in the novels (but appeared in the anime, manga, etc. as well). We are doing that, right?

      Of course.

      Omojuze wrote: And if we are, maybe It's just me, but there seems to be errors with pages like Sharingan using this, could anyone check it out?

      Such as?

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    • WindStar7125 wrote:

      Omojuze wrote: And if we are, maybe It's just me, but there seems to be errors with pages like Sharingan using this, could anyone check it out?

      Such as?

      When I listed Itachi's appearance in the novel, in the Sharingan page he was listed "Itachi Uchiha (anime, manga, novel, etc... only)" and also, when I listed Sharingan's appearance in the novel, for some reason it doesn't show up.. Maybe I'm just stupid, I bet that's what it is.. >.<

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    • Omojuze wrote: When I listed Itachi's appearance in the novel, in the Sharingan page he was listed "Itachi Uchiha (anime, manga, novel, etc... only)" and also, when I listed Sharingan's appearance in the novel, for some reason it doesn't show up..

      Are you referring to this edit?

      Omojuze wrote: Maybe I'm just stupid, I bet that's what it is.. >.<

      Wut? Not at all. :D It's just that the parameter for "Novel" hasn't been created yet. In other words, this.

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    • ^Oh, got it. Thank you for the info :) And yes, I was referring to that.

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    • I noticed that mention was made to tags in the articles. I strongly oppose any kind of pointless template identifying anime/novel only content, there is absolutely no need for them. Just do "In the X", where X is the medium it appeared in, there's really no need for fancy and very distracting templates to be shoved in people's faces to point out the damn obvious that it only appeared in X. Saying "In the X" is more subtle and less irritating to wiki editors.

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    • FF-Suzaku wrote: We could maybe take a page from Wowpedia and create some simple in-line headers that say, "This section concerns content exclusive to the anime," "This section concerns content exclusive to a novel," "This section concerns content exclusive to a movie," and "This section concerns content exclusive to a work that is considered non-canon." They could even have cute little icons as visual indicators (a television, a book, a film reel, etc.).

      Snapper2 wrote: I believe a prevailing philosophy for the wiki is that it make no declarations about what is and is not canon, at least within the articles. Some things need to be separated from others for simplicity's sake, but never for (stated) reasons of canonicity.

      Snapper2 wrote: Might as well make a video game tag also.

      There would, of course, be only one template, with Anime/Novel/Movie/Game needing to be specified each time.

      Tags: {{User:WindStar7125/AnimeTag}}, {{User:WindStar7125/MovieTag}}, {{User:WindStar7125/NovelTag}}, {{User:WindStar7125/VideoGameTag}}

      SuperSajuuk wrote: I noticed that mention was made to tags in the articles. I strongly oppose any kind of pointless template identifying anime/novel only content, there is absolutely no need for them. Just do "In the X", where X is the medium it appeared in, there's really no need for fancy and very distracting templates to be shoved in people's faces to point out the damn obvious that it only appeared in X. Saying "In the X" is more subtle and less irritating to wiki editors.

      Well, things have gotten interesting. Majority who wants it, they'll be put into articles. Majority doesn't want it, I'll happily tag the images for deletion, and the "tags" idea won't be executed.

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    • WindStar7125 wrote: Well, things have gotten interesting. Majority who wants it, they'll be put into articles. Majority doesn't want it, I'll happily tag the images for deletion, and the "tags" idea won't be executed.

      People obviously didn't consider user experience with this idea, it is not something any other wiki does. I'm not even aware that any of the other anime/manga does this. It's not needed to plaster templates all over the wiki to identify things as being "this only appeared in the anime" when you can just write "In the anime". I strongly prefer the latter, because it's not "in my face" and flows nicely: whereas a template is shoved right in my face and leaves a sour taste in my mouth and if I wasn't such an active contributor of the wiki, it would actually make me leave it.

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    • Technically, Wowpedia does it. But it doesn't mean we have to do it, it's just a proposal. If people don't want it, it won't be here.

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    • WindStar7125 wrote: Technically, Wowpedia does it. But it doesn't mean we have to do it, it's just a proposal. If people don't want it, it won't be here.

      Wowpedia is part of Curse. Wikia absolutely hates people talking about Curse here, so.... ;)

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    • /Shrug. Funny enough, I did point that out here.

      Eh... I don't really care what happens either way.

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    • Am I a big dummy because I thought anime filler was canon? My logic was each of these characters has a life outside of the main manga plot. If only the manga was canon then only Naruto in the whole of this world can or ever has pooped because he's the only character ever mentioned to have done so in the manga. I always felt filler (in all it's forms) was a chance to fill in character development, plot elements, and technical details that wouldn't fit the pace, or would distract from the main story.

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    • Filler is never canon unless explicitly stated by a manga author, or the manga author having written it. Fillers often have out of character moments, inconsistent abilities and power levels, and often contradictory elements to the main plot otherwise. There are exceptions, but all of Naruto's filler arcs are non-canon.

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    • The anime filler is canon to the anime, but the anime isn't necessarily canon to the manga. It's an adaptation, which makes it a derivative work.

      The movies (with the exception of The Last and Boruto) are easy to classify as completely non-canon, as they're oneshot stories that don't actually fit into the series timeline, often directly contradicting it.

      As far as the novels go, we've yet to get clear word on whether Kishimoto considers them part of the official manga timeline, though Shueisha at least seems to be treating them as such. I'm of the opinion that they're canon to the manga timeline, but barring official confirmation there's an argument to be made for them being considered a seperate, expanded canon.

      As far as the articles go, I've always been in favor of being inclusive, not exclusive. That means including the filler arcs and novels. So long as the source of the information is noted in a readily apparant way, there's no need to worry about people being confused. Whether that be through templates or statements, I don't particularily care.

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    • Not all. Few bits here and there were canonized into the manga and 4th databook.

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    • The Kiba blades and Raiga are canon. The filler about him, his backstory and everything else isn't. Only the fact that he was part of the Shinobi Swordsmen. Same goes for every other example.

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    • I guess the Novel(and maybe Movies and Anime-Fillers) are Semi-Canon?

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    • I'm sorry for being full of dumb questions, and doubly so if this had been answered somewhere else. But what do we here on this wikia mean by "Canon"?

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    • Thanks for the swift reply. Is there a reason we don't consider the other things canon?

      Also you seem super helpful maybe you can point me in the direction of another answer. At one point very early in the Wiki's life videogame and other non-canon techniques were listed in character boxes along with canon techniques. Why did that die?

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    • Because Kishimoto isn't too involved in the "other things" such as the anime, novels, movies (with the exception of The Last), video games, etc. The manga is fully canon, because Kishi wrote it. The other things are not fully canon unless Kishi says otherwise. Everything is explained in the link I just gave. Read it, please.

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    • Tentails is wrong on one thing, The Last is labeled chapter 699.5 it is indeed canon, there is literally nothing making it non-canon.

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    • I did. I guess I did a bad job of asking my follow up question. And I'm sorry for that. You said "too involved" Is there a threshold for his involvement do artwork submitted by the man himself become canon? Or is it his blessing only that makes things canon? Like if he hands off a new drawings and data for a videogame only character is that game non-canon, but the character canon?

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    • Yalocalsupahero wrote: Also you seem super helpful maybe you can point me in the direction of another answer. At one point very early in the Wiki's life videogame and other non-canon techniques were listed in character boxes along with canon techniques. Why did that die?

      In the video game, Naruto: Ultimate Ninja 3, Naruto and Sakura can use Chidori. Video games are the epitome of non-canon.

      Yalocalsupahero wrote: I did. I guess I did a bad job of asking my follow up question. And I'm sorry for that. You said "too involved" Is there a threshold for his involvement do artwork submitted by the man himself become canon? Or is it his blessing only that makes things canon? Like if he hands off a new drawings and data for a videogame only character is that game non-canon, but the character canon?

      If Kishi wrote it, it's canon. If others wrote it, it's non-canon, unless Kishi says otherwise.

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    • I own that game. Narudori is pure giddy magic. What I'm asking I suppose is this, why don't we include an Apocrypha section for things like that? Is it a length or style concern?

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    • Yalocalsupahero wrote: I own that game. Narudori is pure giddy magic. What I'm asking I suppose is this, why don't we include an Apocrypha section for things like that? Is it a length or style concern?

      I suggest you create a separate thread for your constant questions. This is getting to be a bit off-topic, no offense.

      Astarod wrote: I guess the Novel(and maybe Movies and Anime-Fillers) are Semi-Canon?

      Only the Hiden Novels, the anime-fillers, Boruto: Naruto the Movie (so far) are semi-canon. The Last is fully canon. Every other movie or novel is non-canon.

      Seelentau wrote: The Kiba blades and Raiga are canon. The filler about him, his backstory and everything else isn't. Only the fact that he was part of the Shinobi Swordsmen. Same goes for every other example.

      Interesting. I remember Elveonora saying somewhere that Yamato's backstory in the anime is canon. Are backstories usually canon? There are at least filler/semi-canon or so.

      Seelentau wrote: That happened before Naruto left to train at the end of part 1.

      By the way, we would need a "novel" checkbox for the infoboxes as well.

      ^This has to be done soon, though.

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    • As I surely explained before, it doesn't matter if Kishimoto wrote something or not. That doesn't make it any more or less canon. Canon is defined by what the main series is and in this case, it's the manga. So the manga isn't canon because Kishimoto wrote it, but because it's the main project, so to speak. Everything derived from that - movies, games, even the normal anime - is semi-canon. The tenth movie is an exception because it was stated to be a chapter in movie form.

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    • Omojuze wrote: When I listed Itachi's appearance in the novel, in the Sharingan page he was listed "Itachi Uchiha (anime, manga, novel, etc... only)"

      What's the problem? The appearance of "only"? If so, I don't know which template handles that so you'd need to ask UltimateSupreme. It might be better just to drop "only" altogether.

      Omojuze wrote: when I listed Sharingan's appearance in the novel, for some reason it doesn't show up.

      As has been pointed out, I didn't add the parameters. It's easy to do.

      However, I feel that the debut parameters are over-utilized. Naruto, for example, neither needs nor benefits from having a novel, movie, game, and OVA debut. If you want to add them yourself I won't stop you, but I will not assist.

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    • WindStar7125 wrote: Interesting. I remember Elveonora saying somewhere that Yamato's backstory in the anime is canon. Are backstories usually canon? There are at least filler/semi-canon or so.

      Yamato's backstory from the Kakashi filler isn't canon. The smoke clan and everything, for example. Only what was included in the databook is canon from that filler.

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    • Yamato's databook entry also seems to imply he was given the codename "Yamato" by Hiruzen, which isn't from the Kakashi filler and contradicts both the manga and the anime. The entries for Torune, Pakura, and Maki also mention their anime-only backgrounds, but without all of the details.

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    • Almost seems like the databook was conceived by Studio Pierrot staff.

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    • Can we agree on Semi-Canon?

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    • Elveonora wrote: Almost seems like the databook was conceived by Studio Pierrot staff.

      It'll be funny if someone comes out and officially states the databook was conceived by SP :P

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    • A FANDOM user
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