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  • It has now been nearly a year since this problem arose and it has gone unresolved. Currently, various articles on the wiki contradict one another on the matter of when and how the moon was created. The manga contradicts itself, with some parts claiming it was created by Hagoromo using Chibaku Tensei in his old age and others claiming he and Hamura created it together using the Six Paths — Chibaku Tensei. These are the various ways these events have been explained:

    • Obito's initial explanation does not include Hamura and claims the Sage created the moon after the creation of the tailed beasts. The second fanbook repeats his explanation point-for-point.
    • Kurama explicitly states that Hagoromo survived the extraction of the tailed beasts' chakra due to the Demonic Statue remaining inside him. Curiously, he also repeats Obito's claim that the extracted chakra was scattered around the world, seemingly contradicting the scenes where the young tailed beasts were seen with Hagoromo.
    • Hagoromo simply tells Naruto that he and Hamura sealed the Ten-Tails inside him together. He does not elaborate on how it was sealed or mention the creation of the moon. However, the moon can be seen behind Indra and Asura in Hagoromo's memories in panels prior to the creation of the tailed beasts.
    • Black Zetsu states that the moon was created when Hagoromo and Hamura sealed the Ten-Tails. He does not even mention the fact that it was sealed in Hagoromo.
    • The fourth databook and movie guidebook repeat Black Zetsu's explanation as fact, stating the moon was created by the brothers' Six Paths — Chibaku Tensei. They also expand on this by saying that Hamura departed for the moon to watch over the Ten-Tails' sealed body. They still acknowledge that Hagoromo was the Ten-Tails' jinchūriki, though as far as I'm aware, neither explains in what capacity the Ten-Tails was sealed inside him.

    So the question is what to do? Disregard Obito's and Kurama's explanations entirely? Simply mention the so-called plot holes in trivia? Regardless, there should be some sort of consensus on how to handle this issue in the numerous articles it affects.

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    • At the time, Obito didn't have all the information. His knowledge of the events were incomplete.

      The Tailed Beasts being with Hagoromo doesn't contradict that they were scattered, it just wasn't the first thing he did once he extracted and separated them.

      As for where the statue was sealed, its possible that the moon was originally formed only using part of the Statue, while Hagoromo had a majority of it. However looking at the panels, we see the sun and moon symbols behind Ashura and Indra. It would seem Hagoromo and Hamura didn't create the moon until later. Black Zetsu also may have been referring to the Statue as the 10 Tails, considering the technicality, he wouldn't be wrong.

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    • This is a wild guest from mine but, could it be that when separating the chakra of the TT, aside the 'body' being turned into the core of the moon, the chakra itself turned into a 'solid body' hence creating the demonic statue that allow Hagoromo to survive the extraction.

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    • Its contradictory because the manga/databook/whatever presents it as contradictory. There is not much we can do about it.

      We cannot ignore Tobi's version of events because his version of events just leaves out Hamura, but everything else checks out.

      We cannot leave out Kurama's version of events because the fox was actually there.

      Hagaromo simply adds Hamura to the mix but keeps everything as they were, with the Ten-Tails defiantly being sealed inside him.

      Which then breaks realities because somehow the Ten-Tails had to be sealed in the moon but at the same time sealed inside Hagoromo. It could have been possible that like Kurama, the Ten-Tails was split into 2 halves, and one was sealed inside the Sage the other the moon. But that would require 2 Demonic Statues because based on Kurama's story Hagoromo did survive the the creation of the tailed beasts because he still had the statue in him.

      Unless for some reason when Hagoromo and Hamura used Chibaku Tensei on the Ten-Tails and that didn't create the moon at that moment then no amount of back and forth will make this story make a lick of sense.

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    • Always considered making a topic of discussion for this, but never had the time. Gonna read and maybe dissect this puppy after I get back home.

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    • Personally I feel Hagoromo and Black Zetsu's explanation to be true and not Obito's initial explanation since it is clear to us that tailed beasts were created after sealing Ten-Tails in moon. I think the information from the latest chapters should be considered, Obito's statements contradicts Hagoromo, anyway we can add it to the trivia section. The problem is Kurama's statement he said that Hagoromo survived the extraction of Ten-Tails chakra by being attached to the statue, we don't have enough information about that event that's the problem but it was confirmed from ch 670 & 671 that the creation of the moon and creation of the tailed beasts are two different events, here is how I see this, it is just a theory-

      First, the moon was created from Six Path's Chibaku Tensei, the husk of Ten-Tails became it's core, and the Ten-tails chakra was sealed inside him. When he wanted to extract the Ten-Tail's chakra and create Tailed beasts he summoned the statue from the moon similar to how Madara did and he was on statue's support and created the tailed beasts and the statue was sealed back again to the moon after his passing.

      This solves the problem of Kurama's statement but contradicts Obito's statement that the moon was created after the tailed beasts were created but it supports Black Zetsu's statement and of course Hagoromo's explanation and chapter 670 panel showing Indra with moon in background. My guess is that the tailed beasts didn't know about Hamura and no one knew so he was not documented on tablet but the rest of it seems to be in place.

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    • BeyondRed wrote: It has now been nearly a year since this problem arose and it has gone unresolved. Currently, various articles on the wiki contradict one another on the matter of when and how the moon was created. The manga contradicts itself, with some parts claiming it was created by Hagoromo using Chibaku Tensei in his old age and others claiming he and Hamura created it together using the Six Paths — Chibaku Tensei. These are the various ways these events have been explained:

      • Obito's initial explanation does not include Hamura and claims the Sage created the moon after the creation of the tailed beasts. The second fanbook repeats his explanation point-for-point.
      • Kurama explicitly states that Hagoromo survived the extraction of the tailed beasts' chakra due to the Demonic Statue remaining inside him. Curiously, he also repeats Obito's claim that the extracted chakra was scattered around the world, seemingly contradicting the scenes where the young tailed beasts were seen with Hagoromo.
      • Hagoromo simply tells Naruto that he and Hamura sealed the Ten-Tails inside him together. He does not elaborate on how it was sealed or mention the creation of the moon. However, the moon can be seen behind Indra and Asura in Hagoromo's memories in panels prior to the creation of the tailed beasts.
      • Black Zetsu states that the moon was created when Hagoromo and Hamura sealed the Ten-Tails. He does not even mention the fact that it was sealed in Hagoromo.
      • The fourth databook and movie guidebook repeat Black Zetsu's explanation as fact, stating the moon was created by the brothers' Six Paths — Chibaku Tensei. They also expand on this by saying that Hamura departed for the moon to watch over the Ten-Tails' sealed body. They still acknowledge that Hagoromo was the Ten-Tails' jinchūriki, though as far as I'm aware, neither explains in what capacity the Ten-Tails was sealed inside him.

      So the question is what to do? Disregard Obito's and Kurama's explanations entirely? Simply mention the so-called plot holes in trivia? Regardless, there should be some sort of consensus on how to handle this issue in the numerous articles it affects.

      Hamura and Hagoromo made it, he said they sealed his mother together and obito didnt know about hamura or kaguya.

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    • After debating the issue with a coworker, the only way the story works in the slightest if it follows theses series of events. However due to it not being stated this is all speculation.

      1) Ten-Tails is sealed by Hagoromo and Hamura into the Moon, thus removing the Ten-Tails from the earth and saving the day.

      2) At a later time, using the power of the Rinnegan (which has been stated could move the Demonic Statue out of the moon, so it stands to reason it can also move the Ten-Tails), summoned the Ten-Tails from the moon and sealed it in Hagoromo. Doing this allowed Hagoromo to create ninshu and what not.

      3) Years later, Hagoromo split the Ten-Tails into the nine tailed beasts, paralyzing himself but not killing him because he had the Demonic Statue, before finally sending that back to the moon as well and ending his life.

      4) Hamura took the clan to the moon to guard the Demonic Statue which they did fine until Madara summoned it back to earth and instead of actually doing something about it just got themselves wiped out.

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    • Black Zetsu tells true story, Obito knows the myth! ;-)

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    • TheUltimate3 wrote: After debating the issue with a coworker, the only way the story works in the slightest if it follows theses series of events. However due to it not being stated this is all speculation.

      1) Ten-Tails is sealed by Hagoromo and Hamura into the Moon, thus removing the Ten-Tails from the earth and saving the day.

      2) At a later time, using the power of the Rinnegan (which has been stated could move the Demonic Statue out of the moon, so it stands to reason it can also move the Ten-Tails), summoned the Ten-Tails from the moon and sealed it in Hagoromo. Doing this allowed Hagoromo to create ninshu and what not.

      3) Years later, Hagoromo split the Ten-Tails into the nine tailed beasts, paralyzing himself but not killing him because he had the Demonic Statue, before finally sending that back to the moon as well and ending his life.

      4) Hamura took the clan to the moon to guard the Demonic Statue which they did fine until Madara summoned it back to earth and instead of actually doing something about it just got themselves wiped out.

      Makes sense.

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    • BeyondRed wrote: So the question is what to do? Disregard Obito's and Kurama's explanations entirely? Simply mention the so-called plot holes in trivia? Regardless, there should be some sort of consensus on how to handle this issue in the numerous articles it affects.

      Well, we can't omit anything. We should definitely note it in the trivia sections, that is key. Because there are like, 4 different versions of the same doggone story.

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    • TheUltimate3 wrote: After debating the issue with a coworker, the only way the story works in the slightest if it follows theses series of events. However due to it not being stated this is all speculation.

      1) Ten-Tails is sealed by Hagoromo and Hamura into the Moon, thus removing the Ten-Tails from the earth and saving the day.

      2) At a later time, using the power of the Rinnegan (which has been stated could move the Demonic Statue out of the moon, so it stands to reason it can also move the Ten-Tails), summoned the Ten-Tails from the moon and sealed it in Hagoromo. Doing this allowed Hagoromo to create ninshu and what not.

      3) Years later, Hagoromo split the Ten-Tails into the nine tailed beasts, paralyzing himself but not killing him because he had the Demonic Statue, before finally sending that back to the moon as well and ending his life.

      4) Hamura took the clan to the moon to guard the Demonic Statue which they did fine until Madara summoned it back to earth and instead of actually doing something about it just got themselves wiped out.

      The only thing that doesn't work with the idea of Hagoromo extracting the Ten-Tails from the moon is the fact that we were told Hamura went to the moon to guard its body while Hagoromo chose to stay behind and spread ninshu. Which only makes sense if Hamura left when the brothers were young, not when Hagoromo was on his deathbed.

      Looking back, is it at all possible we all misinterpreted Kurama's statement about Hagoromo and the Mazō? Kurama says that the Mazō's life force will keep its jinchūriki alive and then is asked how it knows that, to which it asks who separated the Ten-Tails' chakra in the first place. But it never exactly says that Hagoromo survived because he also had the Mazō inside him. Maybe it was just a really awkward way of saying that Hagoromo told it that information. Could it be that Hagoromo survived the extraction due to also possessing a powerful life force, but not because of the Mazō? That's the only way I can make sense of it, because if not for Kurama we could simply assume that Obito's information was wrong.

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    • Unless you want to further prove Kishimoto's inept at writing, the assumption about Kurama's explanation doesn't work doesn't work. In that scene Kurama was specifically talking about how, because Obito had the statue he was still alive despite the tailed beasts extraction but was left paralyzed and proved that point by saying when the same thing happened to the Sage.

      Nothing confusing about it.

      Now about the Hamura going to the moon. Yeah that's another confusing contradiction. Unless Hamura took the clan to the moon to basically wait for the statue to be sent back, but that's weird.

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    • If Hagoromo made the moon, that meant there wasn't one before there were inhabitants on Earth which is just plan odd. So this meant that during Kaguya's time, there was just the sun and darkness (well small freckles of light from stars). Hmmmm...

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    • "It's not our job to make sense of things" I wonder who said that.

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    • Elveonora wrote: "It's not our job to make sense of things" I wonder who said that.

      Agreed, but it is our job to present information consistently across all of the wiki's articles. We can't have, for example, the Demonic Statue's page stating the original explanation as fact and the Six Paths — Chibaku Tensei's article going by the newer explanation.

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    • I think Madara and Obito's version are wrong, Black Zetsu's is right, and Kurama is stating what he knows, but it's not everything.

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    • I think we should think like that, yes. "Who knows the most?" The answers are:

      • Kishimoto himself (databook)
      • Black Zetsu
      • Kurama

      Obito and Madara know the least.

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    • @Rachin.. not necessarily. As shown an orbiting object can be made larger with Chibaku Tensei and its SPS form. Maybe there was always a moon but it was just smaller until the new size moon was made.

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    • @Elve In order of how I see it from greatest knowledge to least. Black Zetsu, Kurama, Madara, Obito, and lastly Kishimoto (databooks).

      @Quak But they said he "created" the moon, not made a larger one.

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    • This wiki has had speculation before on it before so you can either go with the newest explanation or try to combine them. God this has been messing with my OCD for a while.

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    • The one that seems to make the most sense is that the 10 Tails was originally sealed in Hagoromo and later they used 6 Paths-Chibaku Tensei.

      There is also the possibility that they sealed the 10 Tails completely but Hagoromo decided to summon it back down and seal it within himself to preventanone else from accessing it. Later in his old age decided that keeping the 10 Tails body and chakra at the same place was a bad idea, so he created the 9 beasts and sent the Mazo back to the moon, and Hamura decided to watch over it.

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    • LegionZero wrote: The one that seems to make the most sense is that the 10 Tails was originally sealed in Hagoromo and later they used 6 Paths-Chibaku Tensei.

      Or there is also another possibility that the Ten-Tails was split into Demonic Statue and chakra of ten-tails at that momoent when they used Six Paths Chibaku Tensei, just like what really happened when Naruto and Sasuke used SPCT on Kaguya, the demonic statue and tailed beast were separated when she was being sealed.

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    • That would mean the Tailed Beasts were created on the spot not Hagoromo's deathbed.

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    • Elveonora wrote: That would mean the Tailed Beasts were created on the spot not Hagoromo's deathbed.

      I think Hagoromo and Hamura sealed the Ten-Tails chakra into Hagoromo thus making him Jinchuriki and when the time came he used Creation of All Things to separate the raw Ten-Tails chakra into nine tailed beasts. In Naruto and Sasuke's case they were already separated so they came out separated.

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    • Mecha Naruto wrote:

      Elveonora wrote: That would mean the Tailed Beasts were created on the spot not Hagoromo's deathbed.

      I think Hagoromo and Hamura sealed the Ten-Tails chakra into Hagoromo thus making him Jinchuriki and when the time came he used Creation of All Things to separate the Ten-Tails chakra into nine tailed beasts.

      Then why would Kurama say that Hagoromo survived the Ten-Tails' extraction because of the Gedo Statue? Not to mention Hagoromo had enough time to befriend the tailed beasts before finally dying.

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    • Against double reseal idea since we end up making things. At the time i suggest create page with describing of all contradictions on this matter. Well anyways it is a fiction, not real occurred historical event - and even them not always have only one version.

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    • JOA20 wrote: Then why would Kurama say that Hagoromo survived the Ten-Tails' extraction because of the Gedo Statue? Not to mention Hagoromo had enough time to befriend the tailed beasts before finally dying.

      What I'm about to say is speculative, to me it makes sense,

      • During SPCT raw chakra of Ten-Tails and Demonic Statue was split.
      • Demonic Statue became core of chibaku Tensei transforming it to moon, and Ten-Tails chakra was sealed in Hagoromo
      • As TU3 said because he had Rinnegan, he could summon demonic statue to earth to support his life from Ten-Tails extraction.
      • When he was on support he extracted Ten-Tails chakra and used creation of All Things technique to create nine tailed beasts from that chakra. He was left paralysed on deathbed, before dying he transported the statue back to the moon, so Kurama's statement is true.
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    • I've found something that states officially, without any doubt, that the brothers used Six Paths Chibaku Tensei to seal the Demonic Statue (not the complete Ten-Tails) in the moon. From Organic Dinosaur's translation of Hamura's Jin no Sho entry:

      In order to stand guard at the sealed Jyuubi’s essential body (/vessel), which is the Gedou Mazou that was produced by the “Rikudou Chibaku Tensei”, he and his clan migrated together towards the moon.

      And if the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei created the Gedō Mazō, that must mean it is also the technique that separated the Ten-Tails' chakra from its body. Said chakra was obviously sealed in Hagoromo, as he himself stated he become the beast's jinchūriki when he and Hamura sealed it together. The fact that Hamura took his clan to the moon to guard the vessel also casts doubt on the notion that Hagoromo later removed it and sealed it within himself.

      With Hamura's entry as a reference, I propose we change the relevant articles to reflect the new version of the story and note Obito and Kurama's contradictory version in the trivia. Said trivia point would only really be needed on a handful of articles anyway (Demonic Statue, Ten-Tails, Tailed Beasts, and Hagoromo's).

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    • You're right, that solves it.

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    • Yes so the flashback and databook show/say the same thing. Six Paths Chibaku Tensei separates the chakra and cripples the Ten-Tails into Demonic Statue. That happened when Hagoromo was young, yet Kurama remembers old Hagoromo having Demonic Statue inside, shrugs.

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    • He didn't immediately separate the Ten-Tails chakra into tailed beasts, according to manga after observing Asura's action and when the time was right he decided to separate sealed Ten-Tails chakra into nine tailed beast, so it is sometimes after Asura was born, Kurama is therefore correct he saw the old man using statue's support before dying. I feel like i'm repeating this 100 times.

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    • Mecha Naruto wrote: He didn't immediately separate the Ten-Tails chakra into tailed beasts, according to manga after observing Asura's action and when the time was right he decided to separate sealed Ten-Tails chakra into nine tailed beast, so it is sometimes after Asura was born, Kurama is therefore correct he saw the old man using statue's support before dying. I feel like i'm repeating this 100 times.

      I think the statements aren't contradictory because they allow some wiggle room.

      • We know that the moon was made in a chibaku Tensei. However, Madara removed the Gedo without the moon collapsing. This leaves room that they sealed Kaguya, extracted the chakra (using Six Paths - Preta) to weaken her and left the Gedo only. Hagoromo then acted as the Sage of Six Paths until a time came where he deemed his role was over. He split the chakra and later scattered it.
      • we know that Madara used the Gedo, without being sealed in him, to sustain his life. This leaves the option that Hagoromo went to the moon and stayed on lifesupport from the Gedo until he was ready to die. Or, that he removed Gedo and sealed it inside him, then extracted the tailed beasts and scattered them, then returning Gedo. The second option implies he used Gedo to survive the extraction process.

      The third option is that they used Chibaku Tensei to defeat Kaguya, then extracted the chakra, then the Gedo and sealed them in Hagoromo. This makes Hagoromo the Juubi jinchuriki. After deciding his replacement, he creates the Tailed Beast, then after instructing them and scattering them he seals the Gedo in the moon again. After this Hagoromo dies. Hamura devotes his clan to ensuring the Gedo stays sealed while Hagoromo's clan ensures the Tailed Beasts remain separate (Never said, but that's implied)

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    • Thekillman wrote: The third option is that they used Chibaku Tensei to defeat Kaguya, then extracted the chakra, then the Gedo and sealed them in Hagoromo. This makes Hagoromo the Juubi jinchuriki. After deciding his replacement, he creates the Tailed Beast, then after instructing them and scattering them he seals the Gedo in the moon again. After this Hagoromo dies. Hamura devotes his clan to ensuring the Gedo stays sealed while Hagoromo's clan ensures the Tailed Beasts remain separate (Never said, but that's implied)

      True it is stated that Six Paths Chibaku Tensei turns the sealing target into a gravity core in the sky, which attracts chunks of earth that bury them alive. It is confirmed that the moon was formed with Six Paths Chibaku Tensei, so something has to be the core, and so the moon was formed with Gedo Mazou at the time of sealing, by stripping the chakra of Ten-Tails from it and chakra was sealed in Hagoromo with the help of Hamura (we can't say when he did this), after Asura and Indra were born he extracted and split this chakra into 9 TB (how he extracted- is the contradiction) He may have gone to the moon or he would've summon statue to earth without collapsing the moon of course, my guess is he summoned it and that is how Madara learned to summon statue with his Rinnegan by reading the stone tablet. Sealing the statue inside or staying attached to statue is out of question because both the methods act as life support.

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    • Yeah he could have summoned it sealed it inside of himself and hamura reverse summoned it back to the moon.

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    • A FANDOM user
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