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  • It states that naruto used all 9 tailed beast during his fight with momoshki, yet after watching the battle I fail to see it. Also if he did and he still didn't have truth seeking orbs after 10+ years, that confirms that they are permanently lost.

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    • It states that in the article? I haven't seen the movie, so I can't confirm anything. So one user claims that he did use all nine tailed beasts (and puts it in an article), and another says no. Wut?

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    • Um, Naruto still has his SPSM. The 9 tailed beasts stuff as a core-requisite is another thing that isn't quite clear. I haven't even seen the movie, and won't bother, but yeah there's a lot of unclear things referenced in the articles.....unless I'm misunderstanding you.

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    • WindStar7125 wrote: It states that in the article? I haven't seen the movie, so I can't confirm anything. So one user claims that he did use all nine tailed beasts (and puts it in an article), and another says no. Wut?

      The mode he used during the battle looked like the same one in gaiden

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    • Okay, the nine tailed beasts have nothing to do with Six Paths Sage Mode (per databook and one user was anal about it). So even if he did use Six Paths Sage Mode, there's no guarantee he used all of the nine tailed beasts I don't think.

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    • @Wind its stated in the novels(which are reconized as canon) that 6 paths sage mode requires the 9 tailed beasts.

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    • Point to where the novels are stated and confirmed as canon, because until then, NO.

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    • WindStar7125
      WindStar7125 removed this reply because:
      Removing this too
      20:22, September 1, 2015
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      Enough
      20:19, September 1, 2015
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    • Thre's another thread about that matter. Comment on it there. These canon debates constantly get threads off topic.

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    • KuroiToketsuHoshi wrote: Kishimoto's beliefs on his series > Your beliefs on this series

      Alright then, where is the source that states what you say…?

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    • WindStar7125 wrote: Okay, the nine tailed beasts have nothing to do with Six Paths Sage Mode (per databook and one user was anal about it). So even if he did use Six Paths Sage Mode, there's no guarantee he used all of the nine tailed beasts I don't think.

      personally I just view that cloak as an extension to enhance the mode. Anyway in the movie naruto still has glowing skin.

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    • At the end of the Manga, Naruto and Sasuke undid Infinite Tsukuyomi, even after Sasuke stated he ran out of their chakra. Proving it regenerated, as IT cannot be undone unless both the Rinnegan (Sasuke) and the chakra of all nine tailed beasts (Naruto) is used to do so (Hagoromo stated this himself). Naruto not using their chakra after the war means nothing, he never used SPSM in The Last, yet he still has it in Gaiden. Also based on what the wiki says, Naruto, Sasuke, and Boruto manage to defeat Momoshiki without that much difficulty, so it's not like Naruto would need to go 100% all out anyway and enter his Asura-like TBM.

      The Shikamaru Hiden novel also mentions Naruto still having their chakra, and even though Kishi didn't write it. An author that he knows did, and he illustrated it, and the Hiden novel series was advertized alongside Manga chapters and The Last to tell us when they took place. Another timeline chart coming out excluding them doesn't mean they're non-canon, there's no need for them to post them all twice considering the first timeline already told us and they aren't as important as the other main material shown anyway.

      The only reason people even argue their canonicy is because Kishimoto didn't write them. Which is illogical, why would Kishi go through the effort to illustrate an irrelevant novel and most importantly allow a timeline chart to be released listing the novels in the same timeline as his own canon material? It literally makes no sense. Especially when literally all of the other material in the Naruto Project (The Last, Gaiden, Boruto) have been nothing but canon (excluding the live action play for obvious reasons). But my main point is, even if you disagree with the novels being canon. At the end of the Manga, he still had their chakra. Him not using it later on cannot be used as proof since he has never gone 100% all out since then and none of the threats faced have been as strong as Kaguya.

      So unless there is an official source that states he lost all of their chakra, no amount of "common sense" (which clearly varies between people since there is so many arguments and debates) is fact. Until we have another source in our hands that says that Naruto lost all of the TB chakra, these arguments should just be put to rest.

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    • @Archangel489, I removed the info btw. And yeah, I know, he does have glowing skin, but Six Paths Sage Mode, according to some people, is just Sage Mode without the pigmentation (I actually think it's that and the yellow eyes, but /shrug)

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    • Unless he is still using all of them and his skin glows due to have all of kurama instead of half *shrugs*. In the same way that narutos nine tails chakra mode has slit pupils in the last probably for the same reasons. The reason for him not having the tomoe on his back is also likely due to the hokage symbols in the same way minato didn't gain a new cloak in his kurama mode because he already had a cloak. Just a theory. Either way you cant prove it and naruto still has the yellow eyes

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    • Maybe. I just wish Kishi didn't make it so unclear. Had Naruto kept the TSB and the markings on his back, it wouldn't be such a debate.

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    • At least it gives us plenty of debate material. I wish we could ask why does his cloak look different, can tsb be regenerated over time, and did the sage ever have the gedo statue sealed in him to kishi.

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    • All of which are compelling questions. Kishi has a habit of leaving far more questions than answers, haha.

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    • Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 wrote: At the end of the Manga, Naruto and Sasuke undid Infinite Tsukuyomi, even after Sasuke stated he ran out of their chakra. Proving it regenerated, as IT cannot be undone unless both the Rinnegan (Sasuke) and the chakra of all nine tailed beasts (Naruto) is used to do so (Hagoromo stated this himself).

      Bingo. Someone finally caught on.

      Let's review, shall we:

      1. Sasuke never said he ran out of their chakra. In fact, the only reference that was made to chakra levels was Kurama saying that Naruto was running on empty in general.
      2. Hagoromo stated that Naruto would serve as the meeting place for the Beasts and the catalyst of this is their chakra. The entire reason Yang Kurama agreed to be put back inside Naruto was because he was to serve as their meeting place's overseer.
      3. Hagoromo, Sasuke, and Naruto all confirmed that the Beasts' chakras and the Rinnegan were required to undo IT, which Naruto helped with at the end of the war: confirming he still had their power then.

      Case in point: He still has all of their chakra.

      As to the Six Paths Sage Mode, I don't think anyone can conclusively say whether he does or doesn't have it anymore. Naruto's cloak changes almost everytime we see it. You hear people say the eyes are proof of the mode because of the databook, you have people say the markings on his back are the proof because the manga showed it when Madara named the technique, and yet others claim that the presence (or lack thereof) of the TSB is the key to it all.

      I say no one knows what they're talking about. Here's how I view it. Naruto can still use SPSM. Why? Sasuke can still use the Rinnegan, that's why. The power Hagoromo gave them, save the Chibaku Tensei seals, did not go away. But, just like Goku can become a regular Super Saiyan despite the fact that he can go all the way up to God mode now, Naruto can also use his lesser cloaks. Just because he can use Six Paths Sage Mode doesn't mean that it is an automatic transformation and the moment he transforms he has to be in said mode.

      But wait! I have proof of said claim. During Naruto's battle with Momoshiki, there comes a moment where he temporarily uses a Version 1 cloak to shield himself. Why would he use that if he could just turn into Kurama's head, or go Six Paths Sage Mode and defend himself that way? Either A) because he didn't have enough chakra or B) because he didn't want to. Either way, this proves he can use lesser forms despite having more advanced forms.

      /rant

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    • ...he can use lesser forms despite having more advanced forms.

      Boom. Said it right there. To be honest, I don't know where any arguments to the contrary stems from. It legitimately baffles me how some of the people on this wiki come up with the ideas that they do.

      ᴮ̶ᵘ̶ᵗ̶ ̶ʷ̶ʰ̶ᵉ̶ᶰ̶ ̶ᴵ̶ ̶ᵗ̶ʳ̶ʸ̶ ̶ᵗ̶ᵒ̶ ̶ᶦ̶ᶰ̶ˢ̶ᵗ̶ᵃ̶ᶫ̶ᶫ̶ ̶ʳ̶ᵉ̶ᵍ̶ᵘ̶ᶫ̶ᵃ̶ᵗ̶ᶦ̶ᵒ̶ᶰ̶ˢ̶ ̶ᶦ̶ᶰ̶ ̶ᵗ̶ʰ̶ᵉ̶ ̶ᶰ̶ᵃ̶ᵐ̶ᵉ̶ ̶ᵒ̶ᶠ̶ ̶ᶫ̶ᵒ̶ᵍ̶ᶦ̶ᶜ̶ ̶ᵃ̶ᵖ̶ᵖ̶ᵃ̶ʳ̶ᵉ̶ᶰ̶ᵗ̶ᶫ̶ʸ̶ ̶ᶰ̶ᵒ̶ᵇ̶ᵒ̶ᵈ̶ʸ̶ ̶ᶰ̶ᵒ̶ᵗ̶ᶦ̶ᶜ̶ᵉ̶ˢ

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    • NeedleJizo wrote:

      ...he can use lesser forms despite having more advanced forms.

      Boom. Said it right there. To be honest, I don't know where any arguments to the contrary stems from. It legitimately baffles me how some of the people on this wiki come up with the ideas that they do.

      ᴮ̶ᵘ̶ᵗ̶ ̶ʷ̶ʰ̶ᵉ̶ᶰ̶ ̶ᴵ̶ ̶ᵗ̶ʳ̶ʸ̶ ̶ᵗ̶ᵒ̶ ̶ᶦ̶ᶰ̶ˢ̶ᵗ̶ᵃ̶ᶫ̶ᶫ̶ ̶ʳ̶ᵉ̶ᵍ̶ᵘ̶ᶫ̶ᵃ̶ᵗ̶ᶦ̶ᵒ̶ᶰ̶ˢ̶ ̶ᶦ̶ᶰ̶ ̶ᵗ̶ʰ̶ᵉ̶ ̶ᶰ̶ᵃ̶ᵐ̶ᵉ̶ ̶ᵒ̶ᶠ̶ ̶ᶫ̶ᵒ̶ᵍ̶ᶦ̶ᶜ̶ ̶ᵃ̶ᵖ̶ᵖ̶ᵃ̶ʳ̶ᵉ̶ᶰ̶ᵗ̶ᶫ̶ʸ̶ ̶ᶰ̶ᵒ̶ᵇ̶ᵒ̶ᵈ̶ʸ̶ ̶ᶰ̶ᵒ̶ᵗ̶ᶦ̶ᶜ̶ᵉ̶ˢ

      Probably because those who hate Naruto and Sasuke can't stand how OP they've become by the end of the series and do anything and everything in their power to debunk it.

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    • Is there anyway we can ask him anything? Like a fan q and a?

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    • Archangel489 wrote: Is there anyway we can ask him anything? Like a fan q and a?

      That would be wonderful. I'd have so many questions to ask him.

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    • The Tailed Beasts were still there, outside of any hosts when Naruto and Sasuke ended I.T. so that can't be used as proof of anything. Naruto and Sasuke are overrated, you guys love them. I get it. I never said they were weak, but they are definitely not as strong as people like to make them out to be. They each have their own Six Paths Chakra thanks to awakening the Rinnegan and SPSM, which does not mean they are just as strong as when they fought Kaguya and each other.

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    • Well, to be honest, Naruto and Sasuke are pretty OP...by comparison. The problem is that everyone had to be nerfed to make them look as strong as possible. There's a whole thread about it: [1]

      To borrow from Ten-Tailed Fox's example; it's straight-up ridiculous how powerful Goku and Vegeta are by the time of Resurrection F. But there's a gradient. You have them, then Gohan, Piccolo, the other Z-Fighters, etc.

      In Naruto, there's no gradient. Naruto and Sasuke are omnipotent while everyone else is either only good for one thing, or completely useless.

      But, I digress. Let's get back on topic. As if we really need to discuss this further.

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    • Can we make note of the fact that Bee told Gyuki that they should visit Naruto.... If he had all the Tailed Beasts chakra leaving the waterfall wouldn't be an issue.

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    • ^He meant B physically going to see Naruto. Not Gyuki going to see Kurama. Naruto was a meeting ground for all the tailed beasts, not their Jinchuriki.

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    • The Jinchuriki can delve into that level of subconsciousness with their beast. This was shown and stated.

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    • ^Still conecting telepathically is not what you define as hangout considering some had big issue even with shadow clones and considering that they already has mobile phones - Bi can just call him in this case.

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    • LegionZero wrote: The Jinchuriki can delve into that level of subconsciousness with their beast. This was shown and stated.

      That still doesn't mean anything. B and Naruto are friends, B going to actually visit Naruto physically and hangout with him is much better than talking to him via telepathy.

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    • Gyuki tells him that Naruto is a busy person, but thats irrelevant when u can talk to somone when thay are taking a nap.

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    • Talking to someone via telepathy isn't the same as talking them in person. That's like talking to someone via Skype or facetime when you could easily go actually talk to them. If you haven't seen a good friend in a while, what would you do? Talk them on an alternate plane of existence? Or just go talk to them when you have the time?

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    • @LegionZero you are correct but dispute between Hachibi and Bi was cause Bi wanted to meet Naruto in person - wich means hangout. They did not argue over contacting(telepathically or any other way) him but about physically relocating them selfs near Naruto - what in this so hard to understand?

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    • Tbh I would meet on an alternate plane of existence. Thats just cool lol. He is also like, a country and a half away.

      Why wouldn't Gyuki suggest mind talk since Naruto is soooo busy?

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    • I don't even see how using telepathy is relevant? They just didn't want to use it. They'd rather speak to him in person. That doesn't mean he doesn't have their chakra anymore lol. Even before he had all of their chakra he could still commune with them on the other plane. Having all of their chakra allows him to commune with them all within is own subconscious at any time, not the other plane.

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    • LegionZero wrote: Can we make note of the fact that Bee told Gyuki that they should visit Naruto.... If he had all the Tailed Beasts chakra leaving the waterfall wouldn't be an issue.

      This is literally the poster child of a make-something-out-of-nothing argument

      QuakingStar wrote: The Tailed Beasts were still there, outside of any hosts when Naruto and Sasuke ended I.T. so that can't be used as proof of anything. Naruto and Sasuke are overrated, you guys love them. I get it. I never said they were weak, but they are definitely not as strong as people like to make them out to be. They each have their own Six Paths Chakra thanks to awakening the Rinnegan and SPSM, which does not mean they are just as strong as when they fought Kaguya and each other.

      No, it's proof. At the end of their fight, when Naruto and Sasuke are laying there in the ruins, Sasuke specifically states that if they transfer his Rinnegan to Kakashi, Naruto's Tailed Beast Chakra and the Rinnegan would undo the IT. There is no getting around it. Naruto has the beast's chakra, end of debate. It's a crack-pot theory to suggest an alternative to what has been plainly stated at least three times in the manga, two of those instances after the fight with Sasuke.

      And your supposition is completely ignoring the fact that the tailed beasts got released from Chibaku Tensei after IT was undone.

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    • Sometimes you gotta settle for less than what you want, as was the case with B. He has an alternative that neither of them bothered to mention.

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    • All of this doesn't change the fact that Naruto and Sasuke are overrated, silver spoon and all.

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    • QuakingStar wrote: All of this doesn't change the fact that Naruto and Sasuke are overrated, silver spoon and all.

      Having your parents killed on the day you were born and having your entire clan massacred by a beloved sibling with corpses lying around is being handed a silver spoon?

      JK, I know what you mean

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    • I don´t get how saying "Naruto/Sasuke is this powerful" equals overating them.

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    • QuakingStar wrote: All of this doesn't change the fact that Naruto and Sasuke are overrated, silver spoon and all.

      Still doesn't change the fact that they would still be very strong shinobi without their free power-ups, or the hardships they went through in life, and being overrated has nothing to do with their power lol.

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    • Over rating would be saying that Part 1 Battle of The End Sasuke and Naruto could beat Madara....

      Anyways, in regards to the chakra, Naruto could simply just not have used it against Sasuke for that last bit, instead relying only on the natural energy. There is still no account of self-regenerating lent Biju chakra.

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    • Yeah that's what I was saying there is no account of self-regenerating lent Bijuu chakra. A chakra that does not originate in a person, unless a jinchuirki, will not regenerate. Dan's will not regenerate in Tsunade, Hagoromo's will not regenerate in Naruto and Sasuke.

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    • I don't think Hagoromo's chakra will regenerate BUT what he did to Sasuke and Naruto gave them 6 Paths chakra. Basically instead of having Hagoromos 6 Paths chakra, Sasuke/Naruto have Sasuke/Naruto 6 Paths chakra, respectively.

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    • Yes, but they would not be anywhere near as strong as Hagoromo, TTJ Madara, TTJ Obito, Momoshiki or Kaguya. As Madara said, they each only have half of what he has, and Hagoromo only gave them each half of his chakra. So they are indeed powerful but not as powerful as people like to say they are. Madara Before becoming TTJ had 6 paths chakra too since he awakened Rinnegan himself. Nagato also had it since he had Madara's eyes, yet if Hashirama was brought back to life, he would of beat Pre-TTJ Madara still. People actually think Sasuke and Naruto are above Hashirama and Madara now and it's just absurd.

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    • I don't think living Hashirama could beat pre-TTJ Madara. Kabuto modded him too much.

      A think pre-6 Paths Naruto and Sasuke are above Madara/Hashirama. Naruto has mastered Kurama and Sasuke's Susanoo could possibly rival it.

      I'm not so sure they legit had 6 Paths Chakra in the sense of TT Jinchuriki/Hagoromo 6 Paths chakra. Kinda like, the Senju/Uchiha chakra doesn't truly mix into 6 Paths chakra, just mixes together.

      Indra/Asura didn't have 6 Paths Chakra, and it doesn't make much sense that mixing 2 chakras would do that.

      I'm too tired to find a better way to articulate it. Its also another topic for another day. After much research....

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    • QuakingStar wrote: All of this doesn't change the fact that Naruto and Sasuke are overrated, silver spoon and all.

      Naruto had Kurama from the start. "face a sharingan alone, run". Sasuke and Naruto were always going to be powerful. Especially Naruto.

      The Sharingan gets stronger with loss. Sasuke had to kill his own brother to acquire the Mangekyou. He had to die to acquire the Rinnegan. How are his powerups "free"? These two kids have gone through a lifetime of suffering in 3 years. You can disagree with the powerups, i get that. But it's nothing even remotely close to "free".

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    • Thekillman wrote: The Sharingan gets stronger with loss. Sasuke had to kill his own brother to acquire the Mangekyou. He had to die to acquire the Rinnegan. How are his powerups "free"? These two kids have gone through a lifetime of suffering in 3 years. You can disagree with the powerups, i get that. But it's nothing even remotely close to "free".

      Just want to throw this in here.

      When people complain about Sasuke's upgrades being "free" it usually means from the effort Sasuke himself puts into it when compared to Naruto. To compare, most of Sasuke's upgrades throughout Part I and II where directly given to him by an outside source or an upgrade from his Sharingan that really required no effort on his part save whatever external catalyst that causes the upgrade.

      Cursed Seal, given by Orochimaru

      Sharingan, tends to upgrade mid fight to give him a significant boost.

      Mangekyo Sharingan, the most blatant as it only really involved Itachi dropping dead. This includes the Eternal Mangekyo.

      Rinnegan, given to him by Hagaromo, which brings him to Godhood.

      This compared to Naruto, whom really didn't start getting handed upgrades until the Forth Shinobi World War. In the matter of fairness, the Nine-Tails was handed to him and that carried him basically everywhere but the only upgrade he received in that was the whole Nine-Tails Chakra Mode, which he did have to put in effort to get.

      Summoning, had to train.

      Rasengan, had to train.

      Sage Mode, had to train.

      Nine-Tails Chakra, Given to him at birth. Pretty much carried everything from the start.

      Nine-Tails Chakra Mode, very similar to the Eternal Makgekyo for Sharingan as he had to fight someone for it. The major difference (to me) is that Naruto actually had to win, Sasuke kinda just needed to be there.

      Six Paths Everything, LOL by this point Naruto was given Godhood when he was already a god. All Hagoromo did was make him a supergod.

      TL;Dr: The complaints about Sasuke's "free" upgrades are the fact that most of them we just see him either get or have, never see him actually work for it.

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    • ^Can't agree more than that. Sasuke simply receives everything, even his Amaterasu is a gift from Itachi. What a gift, isn't it? Sasuke is simply a lucky genius, and Naruto is a hardworking genius who is previously a noob.

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    • I say fighting a war is enough to earn six paths mode

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    • But that's the whole point of the seeerrriiieeesss. That Naruto and Sasuke are complete opposites (Genius vs Drop out) but through sheer hard work Naruto catches up (Even exceeds, based on who you ask) to Sasuke. The whole point was that Sasuke got everything from the get go (Indra) and Naruto had to work his ass off to get the same power (Ashura)

      I don't get why people are complaining about this when that's the whole poooiiinnnttt. Sasuke was meant to be the one who gets everything because he's a 'genius' and Naruto needed to actually put in the hard work. Bruuuuhhh

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    • TheUltimate3 wrote: TL;Dr: The complaints about Sasuke's "free" upgrades are the fact that most of them we just see him either get or have, never see him actually work for it.

      Compared to Naruto it may seem free. The guy still had to walk through hell to get it.

      For Six Paths Sage Mode they had to die. Even for the Curse Seal Sasuke pretty much had to die. The amount of physical and emotional pain they had to go through is immense. The powers of the Mangekyou do not come free. Even those powers had to be nurtured by hatred.

      Naruto's demon was literal, Sasuke's demon was spiritual. Naruto has had to work hard to get where he was, but he never would've gotten there without Kurama. He could train this hard because of his One Night Sleep "jutsu" which basically meant that he could nearly die, and then awaken refreshed the next morning. Plus he's got so much chakra that he could afford to be a dunce at training.

      The only character that got his powers truly for free was Nagato, who got the Rinnegan for free. And he still went through hell.

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    • None of that discredits, or even challenges what I said.

      I stated both the Six Paths stuff was handed to them. Them having to almost dye is irrelevant, both was given.

      I even said Nine-Tails was given to Naruto and that carried him up until the War. But that changes little because from perspective, Naruto's main feats of advancement always came after some sort of training.

      The point was, when people argue about the whole "free upgrades" thing, the extra baggage doesn't matter, every character has baggage. It when one guy's baggage came bundled with godlike power was when people started to take issue.

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    • Sasuke's upgrades are far from free.

      Sharingan: had to witness the corpses of his entire clan. Had to nearly die to reactivate it.

      Chidori: trained for that

      Curse Mark: poses a risk of killing the user just about every step of the way. Also leaves him open to Orochimarus body stealing. And even after absorbing Orichimaru he still had to keep him in check or else risk losing his body

      Mangekyou Sharingan: Sasuke almost didn't even get this one, even though he witnessed Itachi's death, which damn near killed him. Also blinds him

      Amaterasu: I dont think that was a gift. That came with his eye.

      EMS/Rinnegan is probably the only hand out he got. Everything else he either had to go through some shiz/nearly die/harm himself with use.

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    • First time posting the very first time i post it did not come out. My own theory is that Naruto and Sasuke are incarnation of Asura and Indra which would makes sense that Hagoromo just unlock that power or so call "Share" his power, so in other words Naruto and Sasuke had the power all along just the matter of the fact that they sort of had the power. Madara unlocked his Rinningan by taking Hashirama cells he force that ability out of himself. Also Madara said Sasuke's sharingan is the "same" as him which would make the whole reincarnation story makes sense. Well if my theory dont make sense to anyone dont blast me i am just sharing :) cheers

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    • TheUltimate3 wrote: None of that discredits, or even challenges what I said.

      it doesn't really matter. It's a matter of opinion whether you think it was worth it or not. Like i said, you can like or dislike it, that's fine. The upgrades weren't free, maybe you think that the cost does not represent what's gained, which is fine too. But that still does not make it free.

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    • Archangel489 wrote: It states that naruto used all 9 tailed beast during his fight with momoshki, yet after watching the battle I fail to see it. Also if he did and he still didn't have truth seeking orbs after 10+ years, that confirms that they are permanently lost.

      I dont think Naruto did because if he drew from all the chakra of the bijuu he would have goudoudamas and the magatama and rinnegan pattern on his back. Naruto in gaiden & the movie was still using six path sage mode but he was only drawing the enchancement from kurama. Six path sage mode itself is just sage mode without the pigmentation on the eyes basically Six path chakra with Senjutsu chakra. The cloak is just a further enhancement to it like a power boost. It is similar to sage tailed beast mode.

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    • "It states he used all 9 ailed beast". The SPSM has nothing to do with the tailed beast.

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    • @QuakingStar When Dan and Obito gave Tsunade and Kakashi their chakra, their souls literally possessed them. That didn't happen with Hagoromo, he gave them each half of his chakra. Madara only awakened a small portion of Six Paths Chakra when he got his Rinnegan, that is nothing compared to the amount that Naruto and Sasuke have for obvious reasons.

      As for this whole argument about them losing the chakra. I'm going to prove this wrong once and for all. Okay, Naruto uses Six Paths Sage Mode. Why is it called that? Because it uses Six Paths Sage Chakra. Naruto cannot use it via only Asura, cause Asura didn't have Six Paths chakra, only when Asura and Indra's chakra is combined can Six Paths Chakra be created and combined with Sage Mode to create Six Paths Sage Mode. Now you're forgetting something, Asura had Six Paths Sage Mode too. But only because his father gave him the power, Hagoromo stated that himself, and said that this time he's going to give Naruto and Sasuke half instead of giving it all to Asura like he did last time.

      Naruto using it via Asura's chakra makes no sense, he can only use it via Hagoromo's chakra, so he must still have it to use SPSM. As for the tailed beasts thing, there is a case in which a person can be a Jinchuriki while only having tailed beasts chakra and not it's body. This case is Hagoromo, the very first Jinchuriki. The new retconned version of his backstory, reveals that Hagoromo and Hamura sealed the Ten-Tails' body into the Moon. Which Hamura and the rest of the clan left to protect it. While Hagoromo became it's Jinchuriki via it's chakra, which stayed with him since he was young all the way up until he was on his death bed and extracted said chakra to create the nine tailed beasts. Naruto was given chakra directly from the beasts themselves and even after Sasuke claimed he had ran out he still had it and used it the next day despite being nearly dead.

      Naruto was meant to serve as the meeting ground for all of the tailed beast and Kurama was asked to go back inside of him due to that. Do you think that Hagoromo assumed that Naruto would never have to fight anyone else ever again and use the tailed beasts' chakra? Or use their chakra against Madara? If it was suppose to be such a short temporary thing, there was no purpose behind him being the one who reunites them all and obtains all of their powers, or Kurama going back inside of him to protect the "meeting ground".

      According to the end of the Manga and this new Otsutsuki Clan backstory that the Manga, forth databook, and The Last provided us with. One can become a Jinchuriki via chakra alone and it will remain with them for their whole life. So Naruto has their chakra, and both Naruto and Sasuke have Hagoromo's chakra or else Naruto's SPSM is nonexistent. It doesn't even matter if the pigmentation, special seals on his back, or whatever is what identifies it. SPSM is only done with Six Paths chakra, hence it's name, and that goes for both Naruto and Asura, which they received from Hagoromo.

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    • ^Which by the way SPSM is only the yellow cross pupil eyes. What do we see Naruto doing in this form? Punched and Kicked a Truth Seeking Ball material Use a very advanced Rasenshuriken with One hand

      The cloak is just the chakra mode made out of all 9 Great Spirits' chakra. What we saw in the Gaiden and the later half of the Boruto movie is basically Naruto using SPSM but using only Kurama's chakra instead of all nine spirits.

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    • SPSM and the cloak are not the same thing. He can have 6PSM without the cloak.

      Also Hagoromo designated Naruto as a meeting ground after they fought Madara/Kaguya, so that is irrelevant. He also designated Naruto the neeting ground before he knew of Sasuke's answer. So neither of these things were taken into account beforehand. With Kaguya having been defeated Naruto wouldn't have much of a reason to use the other Tailed Beast Chakra.

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    • LegionZero wrote: SPSM and the cloak are not the same thing. He can have 6PSM without the cloak.

      True. The Databook does not differentiate, but his biju cloak is something to use on top of his augmented sage powers.

      As for this whole argument about them losing the chakra. I'm going to prove this wrong once and for all.

      Nope. Chakra gifts are temporary. Just like Gaara still retained his Shukaku powers (control over sand and all that), Naruto and Sasuke retained their respective permanent unlocks. They just don't have Hagoromo's power anymore, which would've been roughly half the Ten Tail's power plus half his own considerable chakra per person. Naruto retains Kurama plus a "jinchuriki mark" that allows him to pull out Biju chakra like he was a jinchuriki, hence why he's called a Jinchuriki of all beasts. Considering his remote chakra donation, he likely can call upon the Biju's chakra at will (range limits may apply). Considering he lost his Truthseeking Balls and no longer seems to levitate (still have to see Boruto The Movie), that seems to be among his lost powers. Sasuke's power levels dropped considerably too (i believe Boruto the novel states he can use ~40), probably to around what he had before Hagoromo's chakra gift (again, about half the Ten Tail's power) which was still considerable.

      So in short, Naruto and Sasuke's power has decreased, but is still immense and above pre-hagoromo levels.

      I do agree that his Six Paths Sage Mode cloak is now drawing only from kurama, which is why it has the underbody but not the full appearance.

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    • @TheKillman I'm not understanding you guys' logic. It's beyond me how people are coming to the conclusion that Naruto is somehow using Six Paths Sage Mode without Six Paths Chakra when Six Paths Chakra is the main power source and the reason SPSM exist. Look, Naruto got SPSM from Hagoromo, several years later, he still has SPSM. It doesn't matter what any of us think personally, the fact is, he has SPSM, so he has Hagoromo's chakra. All of this "it's because of Asura" or "he left some kind of mark" or something else is just personal speculation. Asura had the mode too, and why did he have it? Because of Hagoromo. Hagoromo said that he gave his son his power himself, but this time (referring to Naruto and Sasuke) he was gonna split the power instead of giving it all to Asura. Don't believe me? Go reread the Manga chapters. They're easy to find. Even look at what the wiki says on it's article, it quotes the fourth databook and the very first sentence is "with the power bestowed upon them by Hagoromo Otsutsuki". I mean it shouldn't even be argued at this point.

      Naruto was called the Jinchuriki of all of the Tailed Beasts by Sasuke, and called their meeting ground by Hagoromo because he had all of their chakra. Not because he could pull them out of the Ten-Tails, Idk where you got that from. But that's false. Naruto was able to convene and call on all of their powers from within him. Both Hagoromo and Naruto were called Jinchuriki via only having the tailed beast's chakra. Hagoromo had that chakra all of his life until he extracted it and made the nine tailed beasts from it. He didn't have the Gedo Mazou in him (Kurama was wrong) because the fourth databook and The Last says that the Gedo Mazou was used as the core of the Moon which Hamura and the clan left to protect. Meaning, the only logical way for Hagoromo to be it's Jinchuriki is via it's chakra. This is both plausible and logical, as Naruto was also called a Jinchuriki of all of the beasts despite only having their raw chakra and not their bodies. These both happened at the end of series, further reinforcing that the original legend about Hagoromo was wrong and retconned and that the definition of what a Jinchuriki is has been expanded on.

      As for the Boruto stuff, please give me actual proof on that. Also, I'm aware that SPSM and the cloak aren't the same thing.

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    • What retcon are you talking about. Its prefectly reasonable that he had the Gedo and sealed/resealed it in the moon later. Also, during his time there was peace, even if he only had the 10 Tails chakra, he wouldn't have used much of it.

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    • @LegionZero The fourth databook states that Hagoromo and Hamura fought and defeated the Ten-Tails, and sealed it's body into what became known as the Moon via the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei. Hamura and the rest of the Otsutsuki Clan then left and went to the Moon to guard it, with Hamura still being a young man and awakening his Tenseigan sometime after. Hagoromo didn't extract the Ten-Tails' chakra and create all of the nine tailed beasts until he was on his deathbed. Meaning that if he made the Moon then, Hamura would be old and on his deathbed too. Which he wasn't he left right after they initially fought the Ten-Tails. The Moon was literally created by their Six Paths Chibaku Tensei it's core was the Gedo Mazou, so it's impossible for him to have sealed it in the Moon later when it is the reason the Moon exist. Him not using much of it is irrelevant considering he created the nine tailed beasts to prevent it's resurrection after his death. Which means that even if he died being the Jinchuriki, its chakra would come back.

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    • @Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 I I wholeheartedly agree with you. Except for one small thing. Hagoromo only gave Asura authority, not actual power

      @Thekillman Using Naruto's lack of TSB as evidence of him losing Hagoromo's chakra is kinda dumb. It has been established that TSB can't be created(with the exception of the cop-out)

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    • UltimaDude wrote: @Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 I I wholeheartedly agree with you. Except for one small thing. Hagoromo only gave Asura authority, not actual power

      @Thekillman Using Naruto's lack of TSB as evidence of him losing Hagoromo's chakra is kinda dumb. It has been established that TSB can't be created(with the exception of the cop-out)

      @UltimaDude That's what I thought at first too. But according to the wiki's page, and the very long debate they had on Asura's talkpage, they came to the conclusion that Asura has SPSM because Hagoromo gave it to him. Their argument I believe is because right after Hagoromo talks about passing on the power to his son, he says he'll give both Naruto and Sasuke the power. Asura also having TSBs and a mode similar to Naruto's further reinforces the point. If you disagree, you can go discuss it on Asura's page.

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    • @Saiya-jin: What is stopping Hagoromo from pulling the 10 Tails body from the moons core and putting it back later?

      • on a side note, if it is truly a retcon, why has no one made the necessary changes to the wiki? It presents a plausible timeline that involves all the information given through the manga and databooks.

      @Ultima: I think the manga says somewhere that he gave him some power as well.

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    • @Legion Cause that doesn't make sense. They want to get rid of the Ten-Tails, there is no reason to undo the seal placed on it and pull it's body back from the Moon after just sealing it away. I've also already brought up this discussion on the Ten-Tails' talk page. Apparently no one has noticed the retcon except me which is why I brought it up. The discussion hasn't been settled yet, but the current timeline the wiki shows isn't plausible. It's trying to combine both the old and new versions of the story, leaving out certain parts from the manga and databook and making no sense. Go read the discussion on the talk page and you'll see what I'm talking about.

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    • A possibility for beinging down the Gedo is to maintains the 10 Tails chakra.

      Weird to think the translators missed a retcon, considering how much they like to talk about what theu translated.

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    • Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 wrote: @Legion Cause that doesn't make sense. They want to get rid of the Ten-Tails, there is no reason to undo the seal placed on it and pull it's body back from the Moon after just sealing it away.

      Kaguya's power was too much too handle, and only Six paths: Chibaku Tensei could stop her. Once sealed, hagoromo can use Preta Path to drain it's power and eventually become it's jinchuriki. I mean, it's unlikely that Hagoromo just conjured Ten Tails Coffin Seal out of thin air. He also was the first Jinchuriki, which means he must've figured out you can be one in the first place. It's unlikely that Hagoromo just decided "hey let's seal this inside me" until he properly understood what it was going to do with him, and how he could do it safely.

      What exactly he did with the Gedo statue isn't really clear, but it's possible he summoned it from the moon just to survive the extraction, then resealed it.

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    • LegionZero wrote: A possibility for beinging down the Gedo is to maintains the 10 Tails chakra.

      Weird to think the translators missed a retcon, considering how much they like to talk about what theu translated.

      Okay, but Hagoromo created the nine tailed beast out of it's chakra in fear of it's chakra lingering and resurrecting after his death. After fighting against that gargantuan, ocean swallowing, land splitting, mountain carrying abomination, and finally being able to seal it away with his brother. Why on Earth would he undo the seal they created to summon it back into the world and merge it back with it's chakra? It doesn't even make sense at all.

      Naruto's significantly weaker body can handle being the Jinchuriki of all of the tailed beasts, even when some of them were just chakra. I don't see why Hagoromo's body couldn't hold and maintain the chakra of the Ten-Tails within himself.

      Thekillman wrote: Kaguya's power was too much too handle, and only Six paths: Chibaku Tensei could stop her. Once sealed, hagoromo can use Preta Path to drain it's power and eventually become it's jinchuriki. I mean, it's unlikely that Hagoromo just conjured Ten Tails Coffin Seal out of thin air. He also was the first Jinchuriki, which means he must've figured out you can be one in the first place. It's unlikely that Hagoromo just decided "hey let's seal this inside me" until he properly understood what it was going to do with him, and how he could do it safely.

      What exactly he did with the Gedo statue isn't really clear, but it's possible he summoned it from the moon just to survive the extraction, then resealed it.

      None of us know the exact circumstances, but we do know he became it's Jinchuriki and the only way to do that would be via it's chakra since it's body made the Moon. Hagoromo shouldn't need the Gedo Mazou to survive the extraction, he is the ancestor of the Senju and Uzumaki Clans.

      Anyone remember Hashirama's regeneration ability? Karin's heal bite ability? Kushina surviving the extraction of Kurama? Naruto surviving the extraction of Kurama? They all got that strong life force and healing abilities from Asura, who was said to have inherited it from his father. Logically speaking, Hagoromo should have those abilities but to an even greater extent. He shouldn't need the Gedo Mazou to survive the extraction. Only Kurama said that he used the Gedo Mazou to survive the extraction, but based on the new story, he shouldn't have the Gedo Mazou at that point in time. Cause it would have already been used to make the Moon decades ago. So Kurama is wrong and he must have survived via his own extraordinary life force.

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    • @Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 @LegionZero I think the reason why Asura mode was similar to SPSM(the chakra avatar, along with TSB) is because he has Hagoromo's body(non-jinchuriki), since he is his son. This body has SPS(Six Paths Senjutsu) + Bijuu Chakra just like Naruto. I think Asura inherited a diluted form of Biju chakra and SPS(What Hagoromo has along with the Rinnegan), because Hagoromo is indeed his father.

      I remember Hagoromo saying something like, "I gave one of them power(referring to making Asura the leader of Ninshu) and they fought, I have two of them power(referring to giving Naruto and Sasuke his chakra)and they still fight". The last thing I remembe him saying Asura and power, was when he was saying how Asura's power started to blossom

      Despite the fact that I have been on this wiki for more than a year, I don't know how to make and/or add on to a talkpage. So can one of you guys add my argument to the Asura talkpage for me please?

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    • @Saiya-jin4: naruto didn't survive that. He was going to die, his heart stopped beating, if Sakura didn't hand pump his heart he would have died. It would seem Naruto's Uzumaki heritage is a little too diluted to survive extraction.

      Also, comparing 1 Tailed Beast to the culmination of all 9 is nothing. The 10 Tails dwarfs all the others. All of ots individual pieces put together. Its also not just Tailed Beast Chakra, its Sage chakra as well. Together with his old age seperating and releasing the chakra may not have been able to be done. Obito and Madara didnt fair too well after their extractions.

      After Hagoromo created the 9 Beasts, Hamura and the clan wouldnt need to stay up there because the chakra wouldn't return to the body.

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    • Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 wrote: @LegionZero so it's impossible for him to have sealed it in the Moon later when it is the reason the Moon exist.

      Madara could summon the Gedo from the moon without the moon collapsing. Hagoromo could've drained the Juubi of chakra first (see: sasuke) then once subdued enough summoned the Gedo from the core. Considering Naruto's chakra naturally merged with kurama's over time to improve his control, it may simply be that Hagoromo drained more and more chakra over time until he was strong enough to hold the entire Juubi. On his deathbed, he created the nine Biju then resealed the Gedo for safekeeping.

      Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 wrote: Apparently no one has noticed the retcon except me which is why I brought it up.

      I noticed the change, but i think i also wrote a timeline that explains what happened. The Six Paths Chibaku Tensei was the only thing that could straight-up defeat the Juubi at the time, but it also seals away powers like the Rinne Sharingan. Without an ability to fight back, becoming Jinchuriki becomes a lot easier. Even a Reaper Death Seal was not enough for Minato to seal the entirety of Kurama. The Juubi was a lot more powerful than that. As i mentioned, hagoromo is the first jinchuriki, and he had to figure out all jinchuriki things on his own. Like the fact that you can become one in the first place. There's no exact timeline for what happened, but it may have been years before Hagoromo figured the jinchuriki thing out.

      Legendary Super Saiya-Jin 4 wrote: None of us know the exact circumstances, but we do know he became it's Jinchuriki and the only way to do that would be via it's chakra since it's body made the Moon. Hagoromo shouldn't need the Gedo Mazou to survive the extraction, he is the ancestor of the Senju and Uzumaki Clans.

      Then why could the Rinnegan summon the Gedo Statue from the start?

      I just want to add that the original merger of the Shinju and Kaguya had a power beyond just the Juubi. Far beyond. Kaguya's chakra was spread by Hagoromo, diluting the strength of the Beast. At some point, this unholy merger was weakened enough to become the Juubi as we know it, which WAS manageable. We don't quite know the power of the Gedo Statue, but judging that it can constrain the power of the Tailed Beasts, it's likely a formidable being in it's own right.

      UltimaDude wrote: think the reason why Asura mode was similar to SPSM(the chakra avatar, along with TSB) is because he has Hagoromo's body(non-jinchuriki), since he is his son.

      it's one of the possibilities and the one i like the most.

      The reason Hagoromo became Jinchuriki was to use it's power for good. He used it's power to spread chakra, and by spreading it he would reduce the chances of Kaguya ever returning. By splitting the Biju he would not only reduce the chances of it ever returning, but also give it's pieces a chance to live their own lives, in harmony with humans. He must've somehow detected the presence of intelligence in the Juubi and decided to split that.

      I actually wanted to reply to some more stuff but i think this post is enough of a text wall already

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    • Hey, guys? Wanna get back onto the topic of this discussion, as stated in the OP?

      If we could, that would be great.

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    • Well if we can figure out this problem then we can figure out the answer to the OP's..... Possibly.

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    • LegionZero wrote: Well if we can figure out this problem then we can figure out the answer to the OP's..... Possibly.

      If Kishimoto had done his job proper and actually made it clear what the hell was going on, we'd not be having this discucssion nor this thread. I'm afraid we're doomed to forever have these kind of threads where it spins out of control over the massive amount of stuff added in the last 100 chapters or so that wasn't explained proper.

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    • As I see it, the only hint of Naruto using all the tailed beasts' chakra is when Kurama and Susanoo fuse. The Susanoo armor looks more like the tailed-beast-enhanced version than the perfect version.

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    • A FANDOM user
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