FANDOM


  • After he was stabbed in the heart by Madara, he wasn't able to move but suddenly he was brought back with the help of Kabuto, during the time, Hagoromo gives both Naruto and Sasuke the power to defeat Madara And Princess Kaguya.

      Loading editor
    • And..? Sasuke clearly awakened the Rinnegan thanks to the Six Paths chakra he got (either that of Hagoromo when he gave it to Naruto/Sasuke, or due to (?) Hashi's cells Kabuto used to heal him, the same situation as with Madara's Rinnegan).

        Loading editor
    • Well, Madara should never stab Sasuke in the first and give him any doubts

        Loading editor
    • I see no point of the discussion here.

        Loading editor
    • maybe sasuke got a normal rinne from kabuto when getting healed, and after that, with hago's chakra, he got six tomoe rinne... or the other way around.

        Loading editor
    • Guess the point is that it has never been 100% confirmed if Sasuke's Rinnegan is Hagoromo's doing

        Loading editor
    • Elveonora wrote: Guess the point is that it has never been 100% confirmed if Sasuke's Rinnegan is Hagoromo's doing

      I think it's 50/50. After all, even Madara didn't awaken rinnegan until much later, even when he naturally awoke it. So i think it's a combination of recreating Hagoromo's chakra and Hagoromo doing some stuff.

        Loading editor
    • Lorenzo.r.1st wrote: maybe sasuke got a normal rinne from kabuto when getting healed, and after that, with hago's chakra, he got six tomoe rinne... or the other way around.

      i also thought about that, makes the most sense imo :/

        Loading editor
    • yeah, basically... cause if getting hago's chakra (from hago himself) were to awaken the rinne, then Naruto would've gotten it too... but madara got his by getting hashi's cells... and kabuto had those hashi cells, while healing sasuke (transmitting his self healing cells, from hashi, to sasuke)... so maybe hago's chakra just basically amped (and/or sped up the process of awakening it), just like what happened to Naruto's normal sm (with hago's chakra, it turned into spsm).. what do u think?

        Loading editor
    • Sasuke received Hashi's cells from Kabuto, so at some point in time he would've awakened the rinnegan,just like Madara.Same with Naruto receiving chakra from all the tailed beasts, he would've eventually awaken the Six Paths Senjustsu just like Madara or Obito (who got it imediatly probably because they had more tailed beast chakra). Hagoromo's chakra probably speeded up the process for both, or at least for Sasuke.

        Loading editor
    • Vladosaurus wrote: Sasuke received Hashi's cells from Kabuto, so at some point in time he would've awakened the rinnegan,just like Madara.Same with Naruto receiving chakra from all the tailed beasts, he would've eventually awaken the Six Paths Senjustsu just like Madara or Obito (who got it imediatly probably because they had more tailed beast chakra). Hagoromo's chakra probably speeded up the process for both, or at least for Sasuke.

      i dont think that it was because of "having more" TB chakra, but because they had the fused tentails already while naruto only had all 9 beasts seperated...

        Loading editor
    • makes the sense

        Loading editor
    • After all this, Sasuke's motive is revealed after Kaguya's defeat

        Loading editor
    • @Angela Davis
      I think Sasuke manifested his Rinnegan via the chakra he got from Hag. Hag gave half his chakra to Sasuke, and to me this half chakra is composed of half Hag's Yin Chakra and half Hag's Yang Chakra. Sasuke's Indra (Yin) Chakra then reacted with Hag's Yang Chakra to upgrade his Sharingan to Rinnegan, and Hag's Yin Chakra is left to use the Six Paths: Chibaku Tensei.

        Loading editor
    • sasuke doesn't have yang chakra.. ur theory would be good, if it wasn't for the fact that he's missing half the power to explain it, or use it.

        Loading editor
    • Lorenzo.r.1st wrote: sasuke doesn't have yang chakra..

      They only said that Hagoromo gave Sasuke half his chakra, but it doesn't specify if it's Yin, Yang, or both.

        Loading editor
    • It wasn't even mentioned that Hagoromo's chakra consists of Yin and Yang, it' s just his chakra which is usually called Six Paths Chakra, and both Naruto and Sasuke got the same one. The only thing which was divided into Yin and Yang were the seals on their hands, the keys to Six Paths Chibaku Tensei.

        Loading editor
    • Ravenlot 27 wrote: It wasn't even mentioned that Hagoromo's chakra consists of Yin and Yang, it' s just his chakra which is usually called Six Paths Chakra, and both Naruto and Sasuke got the same one. The only thing which was divided into Yin and Yang were the seals on their hands, the keys to Six Paths Chibaku Tensei.

      exactly.

      By the way, if a transmigrant awakens Rinnegan, they technically have Hagoromo's chakra. Once Sasuke has Rinnegan and Naruto has SPSM (and both have, due to their transmigrant status, the genetic potential for them), they have hagoromo's chakra permanently.

      However, Hagoromo's gifts consisted both of a buttload of chakra (Naruto and Sasuke spam high-level techniques and never run out until their final fight, after they lose the Seals) and powers. Powers stayed due to the aforementioned genetic potential, but the chakra gift left them. Their reserves are their own, upgraded reserves.

        Loading editor
    • Ravenlot 27 wrote: It wasn't even mentioned that Hagoromo's chakra consists of Yin and Yang, it' s just his chakra which is usually called Six Paths Chakra, and both Naruto and Sasuke got the same one.

      Indra and Asura inherited different halves of Hagoromo's Chakra, I'm just referring to those.

        Loading editor
    • Okay, but they aren't necessary "Yin" and Yang", these two chakra types are just two components which make up Hagoromo's chakra when mixed with each other (the principle of Madara's Rinnegan awakening Hagoromo himself explained). Hagoromo already gave his normal, undivided and pure chakra to both Naruto and Sasuke.

        Loading editor
    • Ravenlot 27 wrote: Hagoromo already gave his normal, undivided and pure chakra to both Naruto and Sasuke.

      This is how I'm interpreting your words: If Hagoromo divided his chakra, it would be Yin Chakra and Yang Chakra, or Indra Chakra and Asura Chakra. If he didn't divide his chakra, it would be Half Yin-Yang Chakra and Half Yin-Yang Chakra, or Half Hag Chakra and Half Hag Chakra. Tell me if I'm wrong.

        Loading editor
    • Yep, that's just Half Hag Chakra and Half Hag Chakra. And technically, it wasn't Hagoromo dividing his chakra into Indra Chakra and Asura Chakra, Indra and Asura just inherited two different aspects of his chakra which make up Hag's chakra again when mixed, The same way, they inherited two different powers of his (doujutsu/spiritual energy to Indra and body/physical power to Asura).

        Loading editor
    • Ravenlot 27 wrote: Yep, that's just Half Hag Chakra and Half Hag Chakra.

      But since Hag Chakra consists of Indra Chakra and Asura Chakra, that makes Half Hag Chakra being consists of Half Indra Chakra and Half Asura Chakra right? So half the chakra Indra inherited and half the chakra Asura inherited?

        Loading editor
    • Yeah, that's true. But I think it's pointless to divide Hag's chakra into Indra/Asura halves since technically it's single entity once created and not just a mix of Indra/Asura chakra that can be divided into the two single components back again.

      I've got an idea to explain it after I remembered Orochimaru's words about techniques, though I'll just use his scheme. Let's say that Hag's Chakra is green. By his sons, it regressed into Indra's blue and Asura's yellow Chakra. Only by mixing blue and yellow, green could be recreated once again. But Hagoromo himself didn't just have blue and yellow to constantly mix them into green, he had green from the very beginning, and if he grants someone the halves of it, these would be two halves of green and not one blue half and one yellow half.

        Loading editor
    • Ravenlot 27 wrote: Yeah, that's true. But I think it's pointless to divide Hag's chakra into Indra/Asura halves since technically it's single entity once created and not just a mix of Indra/Asura chakra that can be divided into the two single components back again.

      To add to this: the Ashura/Indra split is also one of many ways one could split his chakra. Hagoromo did it in a different way with Naruto and Sasuke, splitting his power into Rinnegan and SPSM.

        Loading editor
    • Well, if not the databook that clearly states these powers were granted by Hagoromo directly, I would think that Hagoromo just gave his chakra and seals to Naruto/Sasuke, and this chakra was the catalyst for the powers' awakening, but only the catalyst.

        Loading editor
    • Ravenlot 27 wrote: But Hagoromo himself didn't just have blue and yellow to constantly mix them into green, he had green from the very beginning, and if he grants someone the halves of it, these would be two halves of green and not one blue half and one yellow half.

      I see where you're coming from now. I guess what chakra Naruto and Sasuke got doesn't really matter because they are the same, what matters is what genetics they have beforehand. So this half chakra can awaken both the Rinnegan and Six Paths Sage Mode, but awakening which one depends on what genetics they have beforehand.

      Thekillman wrote: Hagoromo did it in a different way with Naruto and Sasuke, splitting his power into Rinnegan and SPSM.

      It appears that when Hagoromo gave birth to Indra and Asura, his chakra is not only split, but watered down as well, which is why it's different to Sasuke and Naruto.

        Loading editor
    • Ravenlot 27 wrote: Well, if not the databook that clearly states these powers were granted by Hagoromo directly, I would think that Hagoromo just gave his chakra and seals to Naruto/Sasuke, and this chakra was the catalyst for the powers' awakening, but only the catalyst.

      I think there's no real difference. If he gives chakra that awakens these powers, or gives these powers directly, either way he causes these powers. I do think Naruto and Sasuke awoke Hagoromo's chakra on their own (which is why he could talk to them to begin with), but Hagoromo's involvement directed their powers (IE sasuke's rinnegan isn't how a natural rinnegan awakens).

      Georgio722 wrote: I see where you're coming from now. I guess what chakra Naruto and Sasuke got doesn't really matter because they are the same, what matters is what genetics they have beforehand. So this half chakra can awaken both the Rinnegan and Six Paths Sage Mode, but awakening which one depends on what genetics they have beforehand.

      Nope. Nothing in the Manga suggests that only Indra transmigrants can get Rinnegan. It's Hagoromo's involvement that split the power, preventing Naruto from having Rinnegan and Sasuke from having SPSM. We know that even if you recreate hagoromo's chakra, it takes a while for the powers to manifest. Hagoromo made sure they both manifested different powers immediately.

        Loading editor
    • Thekillman wrote: Nothing in the Manga suggests that only Indra transmigrants can get Rinnegan.

      I meant only the transmigrant that possesses the Sharingan can awaken the Rinnegan. So even an Asura transmigrant has the ability to possess the Rinnegan, but only if this person has the Sharingan beforehand.

        Loading editor
    • Georgio722 wrote: I meant only the transmigrant that possesses the Sharingan can awaken the Rinnegan. So even an Asura transmigrant has the ability to possess the Rinnegan, but only if this person has the Sharingan beforehand.

      Yea i know you meant that, but i double checked and there's nothing in the Manga that says that. Black Zetsu, the guy who observed centuries of history, tried both transmigrants to get the Rinnegan. Sasuke's eye makes it clear that Sharingan and Rinnegan are different dojutsu.

      SO no, an Ashura transmigrant doesn't need Sharingan to get Rinnegan. Hagoromo's intervention ensured Naruto wouldn't get Rinnegan and that Sasuke wouldn't get SPSM (as he did have some of Juugo's flesh, so he could've figured out some sort of Sage Mode). Why would Hagoromo do that? Because combining these branches is what created trouble. by giving each half of his power and exactly that, he would force them to cooperate.

        Loading editor
    • Thekillman wrote: SO no, an Ashura transmigrant doesn't need Sharingan to get Rinnegan.

      I've always thought that you needed something to manifest the Rinengan from (ie. upgrade the Sharingan), I guess Rinnegan is something that can be manifested from chakra alone. But if this also applies to SPSM, then what determines the manifested ability to be the Rinnegan for Madara?

        Loading editor
    • Seriously, why.do so many people falsely believe that Rinnegan is higher stage of Sharingan/evolution and that Sharingan is needed to awaken Rinnegan?

        Loading editor
    • Elveonora wrote: Seriously, why.do so many people falsely believe that Rinnegan is higher stage of Sharingan/evolution and that Sharingan is needed to awaken Rinnegan?

      Because of a debunked statement, the same reason why people believed that TTJs are immortal

        Loading editor
    • UltimaDude wrote:

      Elveonora wrote: Seriously, why.do so many people falsely believe that Rinnegan is higher stage of Sharingan/evolution and that Sharingan is needed to awaken Rinnegan?

      Because of a debunked statement, the same reason why people believed that TTJs are immortal

      Obito isnt,but madara is.

        Loading editor
    • Kakashisologod wrote: Obito isnt,but madara is.

      Neither are immortal. It's merely a misconception just like the Rinnegan being an evolution of the Sharingan

        Loading editor
    • When/where was it debunked about the Rinnegan being an evolution of the Sharingan??

        Loading editor
    • Georgio722 wrote: I've always thought that you needed something to manifest the Rinengan from (ie. upgrade the Sharingan), I guess Rinnegan is something that can be manifested from chakra alone. But if this also applies to SPSM, then what determines the manifested ability to be the Rinnegan for Madara?

      I'm not saying it makes no sense. I can completely understand the reasoning why people think that a dojutsu is needed for a stronger dojutsu. But sasuke's eye is irrefutable proof that Rinnegan and Sharingan are separate dojutsu. Ergo, you don't need Sharingan.

      SPSM seems to require some prerequisite sage mode (Naruto has sage mode, Obito/Madara had juubi). Madara lacked a Sage Mode in his first life that would've given him SPSM. If Hashirama got Madara's cells, he would've awakened SPSM and eventually rinnegan.

      LegionZero wrote: When/where was it debunked about the Rinnegan being an evolution of the Sharingan??

      I can write a more elaborate debunk if you want, but the basis is this:

      • Sasuke's Sharingan retracts in both eyes with overuse, turning his tomoe rinnegan into a regular rinnegan. This doesn't make him loose Rinnegan powers (IE amenotejikara). It does make him lose Susanoo and Amaterasu. Hence, they are separate dojutsu.
      • Black zetsu says he tried both transmigrant to get Rinnegan. If only Sharingan could do this, why not just say Indra?
      • Madara is unable to use MS techs with his Rinnegan
        Loading editor
    • Okay, let's say that Rinnegan is really a separate doujutsu. But even then, Sharingan seems to be necessary for it's awakening. I mean, there wasn't any single person shown to awaken Rinnegan plain from the regular human eyes. Yeah, we were told by Hagoromo that Rinnegan components are Indra chakra + Asura chakra, yet we should look somewhat beyong it. If it's actually so simple, then why didn't person like Naruto manifest it after receiving Hagoromo's chakra? Besides, @Thekillman, the word "prerequisite" is the most fitting here. If you need prerequisite SM to awaken Hagoromo's SPSM, then why it's impossible to need some prerequisite doujutsu like Sharingan to awaken Hagoromo's doujutsu, Rinnegan? I.e. if Rinnegan and Sharingan are different doujutsu, it =/= that the latter is unnecessary to awake the former. And it makes sense for Hagoromo's descendants with doujutsu prowess (Indra and his reincarnates, more specifically) to awake his visual power, Rinnegan, while for Asura and his reincarnates it's more suitable to awaken his body power (i.e. SPSM). Also, I should add that Black Zetsu mainly used Uchiha clan to fulfil his goals (thus Indra manipulated and their tablet rewritten), so it automatically means that most of his hopes were on Indra's reincarnates rather than Asura's.

      P.S. Besides, its pretty hard to judge if Madara has lost his MS jutsu with Rinnegan or not since he demonstrated no MS jutsu except for Susanoo (which didn't even require the eyes itselves, as it was seen later) at all, even in his past days still with MS and EMS.

        Loading editor
    • @Ravenlot27 SPSM is not something one can awaken on his own. It can only be given by Hagoromo unlike the Rinnegan where you can awaken it by yourself (with the components of course). Asura's descendants are just as capable using dojutsu, when given the chance, as Indra's descendants as seen with Nagato. BZ still stated that he approach reincarnates of both Indra and Asura. He was more inclined to convincing Indra's reincarnation because they were more willing to awaken the Rinnegan, not more capable.

      The Rinne-Sharingan and Sasuke's "Sharinnegan" are proof that the Rinnegan doesn't come from the Sharingan and thus, the Sharingan is not a requirement to awakening the Rinnegan

        Loading editor
    • UltimaDude wrote: SPSM is not something one can awaken on his own.

      It doesn't seem to be more than just a Sage Mode + Six Paths power combo, so yes you can awaken it yourself. It also depends on the nature of Hashirama's sage mode (is it natural for an Ashura transmigrant to easily awaken it?). Madara didn't possess Sage Mode in his first life so he never awoke SPSM.

      UltimaDude wrote:

      He was more inclined to convincing Indra's reincarnation because they were more willing to awaken the Rinnegan, not more capable.

      Black Zetsu was completely impartial with the Transmigrants. It wasn't until he saw Madara that he specifically went for an Indra transmigrant. The Madara-Hashirama relation is actually very un-transmigrantlike. Not quite inverted though. Madara was a driven Indra but with Ashura's power relation, meaning that his chances of trying to steal Hashirama's power were optimal. (Weak enough to try and steal his power, curse of hatred making him easily motivated).

        Loading editor
    • Elveonora wrote: Seriously, why.do so many people falsely believe that Rinnegan is higher stage of Sharingan/evolution and that Sharingan is needed to awaken Rinnegan?

      It's just that based on how Kaguya has the Rinne Sharingan and Hagoromo has the Rinnegan, it appears that the eyes are "devolving" so to speak. Since Indra has the Sharingan, it's only normal to think that the Sharingan is "devolved" from the Rinnegan.

      If they are in fact the split powers of the Rinne Sharingan, then why doesn't the Rinnegan get passed down just like the Sharingan? What makes the Rinnegan different to the Sharingan in terms of genetics?

      Thekillman wrote: Sasuke's Sharingan retracts in both eyes with overuse, turning his tomoe rinnegan into a regular rinnegan.

      The thing is, we've seen Sasuke having the Tomoe Rinnegan with a regular Sharingan at the same time, which means it's not connected to the Mangekyo Sharingan.

      Thekillman wrote: This doesn't make him loose Rinnegan powers (IE amenotejikara).

      I thought it's stated that his Rinnegan is not at its full power?

      Thekillman wrote: If only Sharingan could do this, why not just say Indra?

      Because Asura's transmigrant can also get their hands on the Sharingan via transplant or whatever.

      Thekillman wrote: Madara is unable to use MS techs with his Rinnegan

      That might be true, but I thought Kabuto openly stated that the Rinnegan naturally comes after the Sharingan, and Madara didn't say otherwise.

        Loading editor
    • Ravenlot 27 wrote:

      I mean, there wasn't any single person shown to awaken Rinnegan plain from the regular human eyes.

      Statistical Bias. There's only one person who naturally awoke Rinnegan aside from Hagoromo, and that's Madara. Hashirma and Madara's relation seemed to be fairly unique, leading to Madara being an easy target for BZ.

      Ravenlot 27 wrote:

      Yeah, we were told by Hagoromo that Rinnegan components are Indra chakra + Asura chakra, yet we should look somewhat beyong it. If it's actually so simple, then why didn't person like Naruto manifest it after receiving Hagoromo's chakra?

      Because Hagoromo didn't want to repeat his mistake of one person getting everything. Naruto with Rinnegan would go against Hagoromo's entire "one person should not have too much power" belief.

      Ravenlot 27 wrote:

      Besides, @Thekillman, the word "prerequisite" is the most fitting here. If you need prerequisite SM to awaken Hagoromo's SPSM, then why it's impossible to need some prerequisite doujutsu like Sharingan to awaken Hagoromo's doujutsu, Rinnegan?

      Because SPSM is a learned ability, whereas a Dojutsu isn't. It also fits the "natural power" vs "learned power" narrative.

      Ravenlot 27 wrote:

      Also, I should add that Black Zetsu mainly used Uchiha clan to fulfil his goals (thus Indra manipulated and their tablet rewritten), so it automatically means that most of his hopes were on Indra's reincarnates rather than Asura's.

      The curse of hatred makes the uchiha easier to goad into taking Senju power, it doesn't mean only they can use Rinnegan.

      Ravenlot 27 wrote:

      And it makes sense for Hagoromo's descendants with doujutsu prowess to awake his visual power

      We know that rinnegan awakens when Indra and Ashura chakra is mixed, to recreate Hagoromo's chakra. This canon explanation directly means both transmigrants can awaken Rinnegan. We know little about SPSM's true nature, but it seems to me that both transmigrants can learn Sage Mode (Sasuke, an Indra transmigrant, was compatible with curse marks. Madara, an indra transmigrant, could easily steal hashirama's Sage Mode, a hereto never before seen feat).

      The "SPSM= body power, Rinnegan= eye power" theme between transmigrants is just fans seeing more thematics than there really were. I am completely aware that i myself forwarded such a theory earlier, but in light of more information (specifically, Sasuke's Naruto Gaiden appearance), it's clear to me that it's a wrong theory. I don't know if Hashirama's Sage Mode is a mere chance thing, or if Kishimoto changed his mind and steered to a more "SPSM = body power" theme. it's clear that Hagoromo accepted the difference, or rather realized that merging the two branches creates trouble (People trying to merge the branches: Madara, Orochimaru, Obito. People that were troublemakers: those exact same people).

      Georgio722 wrote: The thing is, we've seen Sasuke having the Tomoe Rinnegan with a regular Sharingan at the same time, which means it's not connected to the Mangekyo Sharingan.

      The tomoe on his Rinnegan merely indicate the Sharingan power is present. If he overuses his MS, the tomoe fade and he can't use it's powers. Thus, the Rinnegan's tomoe indicate the presence of Sharingan powers.

      Georgio722 wrote: I thought it's stated that his Rinnegan is not at its full power?

      Kishimoto has never been very diligent with his terminology. For some reason, even though it's clearly a different kind of eye, Sasuke's eye is just called a "rinnegan". Thus technically, without Tomoe his Rinnegan is not at "full power".

      Georgio722 wrote: That might be true, but I thought Kabuto openly stated that the Rinnegan naturally comes after the Sharingan, and Madara didn't say otherwise.

      They only theorized as such, but it's clear that Kabuto's theory was false. The existence of Transmigrants means his theory is wrong (you can't just merge Uchiha and Senju flesh, you need transmigrants). It's also logical in-universe for him to think it considering Madara is the only successful natural awakening of the Rinnegan, but it's statistical bias: it's not just that only one Uchiha succeeded, we only know of one person who tried, and it was an uchiha.

        Loading editor
    • The reason why ashura reicanaretes didnt have rinnegan is becuse they are not in hunt for power like ucihas.Madara wanted power so he took some of hashiramas and i think we know hashirama wouldnt do the same thing like madara.

        Loading editor
    • Kakashisologod wrote: The reason why ashura reicanaretes didnt have rinnegan is because they are not in hunt for power like ucihas.Madara wanted power so he took some of hashiramas and i think we know hashirama wouldnt do the same thing like madara.

      We don't know about the other transmigrant's relations to each other. I would suspect the Ashuras to be weaker than the Indras. Naruto was certainly weaker than Sasuke at all times, but got Kurama to compensate. Hashirama and Madara thus seem to be the exception. Which is probably why Madara succeeded. His inferior power motivated him to steal Hashirama's power and his Curse of Hatred made him easy to manipulate.

        Loading editor
    • Thekillman wrote:

      Kakashisologod wrote: The reason why ashura reicanaretes didnt have rinnegan is because they are not in hunt for power like ucihas.Madara wanted power so he took some of hashiramas and i think we know hashirama wouldnt do the same thing like madara.

      We don't know about the other transmigrant's relations to each other. I would suspect the Ashuras to be weaker than the Indras. Naruto was certainly weaker than Sasuke at all times, but got Kurama to compensate. Hashirama and Madara thus seem to be the exception. Which is probably why Madara succeeded. His inferior power motivated him to steal Hashirama's power and his Curse of Hatred made him easy to manipulate.

      Most of Ashura`s reincarnates should have been stronger than Indra`s ones, since senju and uchiha were equal to each other throughout the centuries, despite uchihas having OP jutsus like Izanagi or MS itself.

        Loading editor
    • The Rinne Sharingan split into Rinnegan and Sharingan, which Hagoromo inherited. The Sharingan part got passed down to Indra while the Rinnegan part is split between chakras of Indra and Asura. So a Sharingan isn't a lesser Rinnegan/Rinnegan isn't a higher stage Sharingan because both are already equal fragments of Rinne Sharingan.

        Loading editor
    • Thekillman wrote: It doesn't seem to be more than just a Sage Mode + Six Paths power combo, so yes you can awaken it yourself. It also depends on the nature of Hashirama's sage mode (is it natural for an Ashura transmigrant to easily awaken it?). Madara didn't possess Sage Mode in his first life so he never awoke SPSM.

      The data book flat out states that you can only get SPSM from Hagoromo, therefore you can't awaken it yourself.

      Thekillman wrote: Black Zetsu was completely impartial with the Transmigrants. It wasn't until he saw Madara that he specifically went for an Indra transmigrant. The Madara-Hashirama relation is actually very un-transmigrantlike. Not quite inverted though. Madara was a driven Indra but with Ashura's power relation, meaning that his chances of trying to steal Hashirama's power were optimal. (Weak enough to try and steal his power, curse of hatred making him easily motivated).

      BZ tampered with the Uchiha Stone Tablet in order to get Indra's reincarnates. Though he did approach the reincarnates of both Indra and Asura, he was partial to Indra's reincarnates because they were more willing to steal power due to the Curse of Hatred

        Loading editor
    • UltimaDude wrote: The data book flat out states that you can only get SPSM from Hagoromo, therefore you can't awaken it yourself

      Madara says that he has both Sasuke's (rinnegan) and Naruto's (Six paths Senjutsu) power. So clearly the databook is in the wrong here.

      EDIT:

      I don't know how japanese precisely works, but technically Madara got Rinnegan from Hagoromo himself, since he awoke Hagoromo's chakra. In the same sense, SPSM can only be obtained with Hagoromo's chakra. And for all intents and purposes, Awakening hagoromo's chakra = getting it from Hagoromo himself.

        Loading editor
    • I would have agreed that Senjutsu is a prerequisite of getting Six Paths Senjutsu, but Obito got it from becoming TT jinchuuriki alone.

        Loading editor
    • @Thekillman SPS =/= SPSM. So the databook's statment still stands. You are grasping at straws here, dude

        Loading editor
    • Elveonora wrote: I would have agreed that Senjutsu is a prerequisite of getting Six Paths Senjutsu, but Obito got it from becoming TT jinchuuriki alone.

      Yea but the Juubi is pure nature energy. So gaining control over Juubi is kind of equal to getting Sage Mode.

      UltimaDude wrote: @Thekillman SPS =/= SPSM. So the databook's statment still stands. You are grasping at straws here, dude

      And what's the difference? Seriously, what's the difference between SPS and SPSM? Sage Mode is simply a mode wherein one uses Senjutsu. It's essentially the same thing.

        Loading editor
    • Thekillman wrote: And what's the difference? Seriously, what's the difference between SPS and SPSM? Sage Mode is simply a mode wherein one uses Senjutsu. It's essentially the same thing.

      One is a form of chakra while the other is a mode that uses said chakra. I agree that you can get SPS on his own (by becoming a TTJ), but that does not mean you can obtain SPSM on your own. But that logic, a person can obtain the Curse Seal of the Heaven on his own just because be can obtain Senjutsu on his ownn. See the faulty logic here?

        Loading editor
    • Arent u going a bit off the topic?

        Loading editor
    • UltimaDude wrote: One is a form of chakra while the other is a mode that uses said chakra.

      So? Sage Mode is a mode obtained by absorbing nature energy. I don't see how obtaining the Juubi (a reserve of Nature energy) doesn't grant you the same. The only difference i see with sage mode is fancy animal eyes.

        Loading editor
    • @Thekillman Read the rest of my post. Sage Mode isn't the only state in which you can use Senjutsu. Similarily, SPSM isn't the only state in which you can use SPS

        Loading editor
    • Rinnegan seems to have a few pre-reqs to activate.

      Transmigrant: Indra specifically, Theoretically any descendant could work because chakra signatures are passed down to offsprig, but transmigrants will have the highest concentration of Indra chakra, making them the optimal candidates.

      Sharingan: Even if they are different eyes, the Naruto history shows they are very intertwined. The only time we the Rinnegan activate is through the Sharingan. So there is a possibility that the Rinnegan is akin to a recessive trait, only brought about through the Sharingan+6 Paths/Hagoromo/Ashura chakra.

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote: Rinnegan seems to have a few pre-reqs to activate.

      You need Indra and Ashura's chakra. That's it. Madara had very little of Hashirama's flesh which is why it took so long for it to awaken.

      It does mean that regular people ought to be able to awaken it if they happen to have enough fragments of their chakra, but it's fairly clear that this is a very rare occurrences (after all, Orochimaru tried a whole bunch and it didn't work) to the point that BZ didn't bother.

      The Rinnegan is also not a recessive trait, as it's clearly dominant over Sharingan.

        Loading editor
    • Thekillman wrote: Madara had very little of Hashirama's flesh which is why it took so long for it to awaken.

      Proof?

      Thekillman wrote: Orochimaru tried a whole bunch and it didn't work

      Gotta admit I don't keep track of Orochimaru. Chapter??

      Ashura debunks that theory because he didn't have the Rinnegan despite having been chosen to continue ninshu and receiving Hagoromo's power.

      So there is a possibility that the Rinnegan is akin to a recessive trait, only brought about through the Sharingan+6 Paths/Hagoromo/Ashura chakra.

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote:

      Proof?

      He bit off a small piece of flesh and implanted it. It took years before he awoke that power.

      As an Edo Tensei he had a large lob of Hashirama flesh, easily two orders of magnitude bigger, and awoke the power easily two orders of magnitude earlier.

      LegionZero wrote: Ashura debunks that theory because he didn't have the Rinnegan despite having been chosen to continue ninshu and receiving Hagoromo's power.

      Only in the Anime. The Manga specifies no such thing. And i think it's clear that the Anime is filled with plot holes. In the Manga, Ashura awakens his own power. In the Anime he doesn't do anything remotely resembling that.

        Loading editor
    • Actually, Asura was stated to receive some power from Hagoromo even in the manga. Anime just clarified what kind of power it was (TSBs particularly), but it didn't add anything new here. However, TSBs were kinda easy to recognise in Asura's battle avatar even without anime.

        Loading editor
    • Ravenlot 27 wrote:

      Actually, Asura was stated to receive some power from Hagoromo even in the manga.

      Yea but considering he was made leader of Ninshu, i'm pretty sure it was intended to be political power. Beside, having Hagoromo's chakra doesn't automatically give you Rinnegan, because else Obito would've awoken his own. Similarly, giving Ashura the Rinnegan would again go completely against his belief, namely that no single person should have all this power. Which is also why i have trouble with the idea that Hagoromo gave Ashura actual power.

      Ravenlot 27 wrote: However, TSBs were kinda easy to recognise in Asura's battle avatar even without anime.

      They look very similar to Bijudama to me

        Loading editor
    • It also looked like narutos UBBRS just black in the middle.

        Loading editor
    • Thekillman wrote: Yea but considering he was made leader of Ninshu, i'm pretty sure it was intended to be political power. Beside, having Hagoromo's chakra doesn't automatically give you Rinnegan, because else Obito would've awoken his own. Similarly, giving Ashura the Rinnegan would again go completely against his belief, namely that no single person should have all this power. Which is also why i have trouble with the idea that Hagoromo gave Ashura actual power.

      Your assumption. Nothing says he didn't receive both. He even told Naruto and Sasuke that his mistake with his sons was giving one all the power. Since Asura didn't awaken the Rinnegan then that means his chakra and the genetics together dictate the occurrence of the Rinnegan

      Thekillman wrote: As an Edo Tensei he had a large lob of Hashirama flesh, easily two orders of magnitude bigger, and awoke the power easily two orders of magnitude earlier.

      Kabuto also made heavy modifications to Madaras body, so thats no even a legit argument. Also having experienced the awakening of the Rinnegan, Madara would be able to activate it on his own so long as he met the necessary requirements.

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote: Your assumption. Nothing says he didn't receive both. He even told Naruto and Sasuke that his mistake with his sons was giving one all the power. Since Asura didn't awaken the Rinnegan then that means his chakra and the genetics together dictate the occurrence of the Rinnegan

      Not an assumption if it's fact. When Hagoromo was talkibg to Naruto about his sons, he said Asura's power blossomed, through cooperation with his comrades, to the point he rivaled that of his brother's. So why, 5 or so chapters laters, would the Sage mean actual power instead of political power, if it directly contradicts what he said earlier?

        Loading editor
    • How do u make letters black?Also @UltimaDude is right he simply gave ashura more body power.

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote:

      He even told Naruto and Sasuke that his mistake with his sons was giving one all the power.

      He screwed over Indra and expected him to be nice over it. That's what directly caused all the conflict.

      LegionZero wrote: Kabuto also made heavy modifications to Madaras body

      The heavy modifications were the Hashirama cells.

      UltimaDude wrote: So why, 5 or so chapters laters, would the Sage mean actual power instead of political power, if it directly contradicts what he said earlier?

      Besides, if Ashura's power already rivaled Indra's on his own, why would Indra be able to fight back at all if Hagoromo gave Ashura all his power? And why would Hagoromo betray his own beliefs by giving that power?

        Loading editor
    • No, it weren't only Hashi's cells. I mean, reanimations are supposed to look and work the same way as at the point of their death, which wasn't the best state of Madara (old man and with 1 foreign Sharingan left). So, even if Kabuto transplanted only Hashi's DNA, Madara should've still remain that way, basically, similar to Nagato's state. Yet somehow Madara was rejuvenated to his younder appearance and with the EMS he possessed back then. It is hardly a result of Hashi's cells (since during his lifetime Madara also had it, but still aged), so we must assume that Kabuto made some other manipulations with his body.

        Loading editor
    • Ravenlot 27 wrote: No, it weren't only Hashi's cells. I mean, reanimations are supposed to look and work the same way as at the point of their death, which wasn't the best state of Madara

      Except that we've seen that Edo Tensei can be made to change their looks (As orochimaru does so with the First and Second hokage). Kabuto simply modelled his look after the gargantuan statue

        Loading editor
    • Reanimations can be only "rejuvenated" in sense of removing the most of the defects of the reanimated body (like zombi-like appearance), but it's limited to their lifetime appearance, so it doesn't include the actual age modification. Hiruzen stated that Oro made the First and the Second look exactly as he remembered them to look, and Hiruzen knew the both up to their deaths, which means he remembered their pre-death appearance as well. They weren't that old at the point of their death, and Oro didn't make Hashi look as yound as he was during the VoTE battle, after all. So it's not a usual thing for Edo Tensei user to tamper with the state of the reanimated body. Otherwise, Kabuto could've easily restored a whole bunch of shinobi if not all of them to the desired state of their "prime", yet he mentioned that only Madara was "special" in this regard.

        Loading editor
    • I think what made Madara special was that he used Izanagi to revive himself. So Kabuto had the choice of bringing back Madara in one of two "states", one being pre-Izanagi and the other, post-Izanagi

        Loading editor
    • Definition of power is still your assumption. Why deny what has been outright stated. Indra recieved nothing because he held the wrong beliefs. Asura was rewarded by Hagoromo as the successor of Ninshu and his power because his beliefs already matched Hagoromo's. Even after receiving Hagoromos power he still wouldn't have the eyes, just his body boosted to the fullest of its ability. He even had TSB later on, heavily suggesting he received 6 Paths chakra.

        Loading editor
    • @LegionZero Your interpretation heavily contradicts what has been established. I don't care about this dicussion anymore. Say what you want

        Loading editor
    • LegionZero wrote:

      Definition of power is still your assumption.

      Your idea is equally an assumption. Judging by what we know from the Manga however, it would be really weird if he gave Ashura actual power.

      It's also not been stated outright. The anime adaptation of events has so many contradictions it's clear that it's entirely non-canon

        Loading editor
    • Before we go on to say abt Sasuke's rinnegan, I would like to state something. That Rinnegan(sasuke's) isn't the result of Hashirama's cells whatsoever, if it was true than sasuke would be having wood release(and even naruto too). And going by that logic madara and hashirama wouldn't have been brought to the real world(via edo and rinne rebirth) since they share same souls with naruto and sasuke.
      Madara 's Rinnegan(both eyes) clearly shows that transmigration takes place in same generation..(i.e. he broke the rule and tried to recreate hagoromo's body, which was why Hagoromo's spirit eventually came in when he became TTJ, and later on through other half of his body when tobirama tries to sacrifice in order to cast edo tensei ), Sasuke/Naruto have broken no such rule and the simple manifestation of six paths power granted to them by Hagoromo. As a result Sasuke's Dojutsu develop(half of dojutsu) and Naruto's SPSM(without wood release, Half of body I guess) developed.

        Loading editor
    • Let's be logical here, the black balls that Asura used are clearly either TSB or TBB and that's not original power of Asura, so he must have gotten further power to use that avatar and balls

        Loading editor
    • @Namikazenaruto9, Indra's/Asura's transimigrates don't have the same souls whatsoever. The only things getting passed over and over are their chakra (though not completely, since each reincarnation still has their unique chakra signature) and will (or, rather, personality/ideology), but not the souls themselves. But only one generation of transimigrants could exist at the same time, that's why Hagoromo stated that Madara broke away from the cycle and quitted to be Indra's reincarnation after the Rinne Tensei revival. Obviously, it doesn't apply to the Edo Tensei since technically Edo-Hashi/Edo-Madara were reanimated in the bodies of some unrelated people.

        Loading editor
    • According to databook, the souls do reincarnate, take that up for argument with Kishi

        Loading editor
    • It doesn't make any sense. Otherwise, neither Madara nor Hashi could be reanimated, since they would have the same souls as Indra/Asura and Sasuke/Naruto respectively, which wouldn't allow them to be summoned to the world of living because of their souls still staying within Sasuke/Naruto.

        Loading editor
    • Ravenlot 27 wrote: But only one generation of transimigrants could exist at the same time, that's why Hagoromo stated that Madara broke away from the cycle and quitted to be Indra's reincarnation after the Rinne Tensei revival. Obviously, it doesn't apply to the Edo Tensei since technically Edo-Hashi/Edo-Madara were reanimated in the bodies of some unrelated people.

      Madara essentially recreated Hagoromo's body eventually by use of TT. Which was why physical condition for reincarnation of hagoromo's soul was satisfied which was why hagoromo 's soul came from pure land to earth, and chose to talk with Naruto-Sasuke to stop kaguya's revival.

      Ravenlot 27 wrote: It doesn't make any sense. Otherwise, neither Madara nor Hashi could be reanimated, since they would have the same souls as Indra/Asura and Sasuke/Naruto respectively, which wouldn't allow them to be summoned to the world of living because of their souls still staying within Sasuke/Naruto.

      Note here Only madara got rebirth (he already broke that transmigration rule stuff, abt which hagoromo talked abt since he clearly stated Madara was no any longer indra's reincarnate) Hashirama wasn't and I doubt that jutsu would have worked since naruto was around.
        Loading editor
    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: Before we go on to say abt Sasuke's rinnegan, I would like to state something. That Rinnegan(sasuke's) isn't the result of Hashirama's cells whatsoever, if it was true than sasuke would be having wood release

      Not necessarily. The stuff Black Zetsu are made of is a pretty weak copy of Hashirama's power. Kabuto was experimenting on Zetsu (he did study Yamato and used him to make Zetsu stronger), so if that's the source he added, Sasuke would be hard-pressed to use Wood Release. Obito only used it when strengthened by spiral zetsu.

      Elveonora wrote: Let's be logical here, the black balls that Asura used are clearly either TSB or TBB and that's not original power of Asura, so he must have gotten further power to use that avatar and balls

      I agree, but i think it's likely he either became a Kurama jinchuriki or perhaps he was able to get chakra from Kurama. Sadly this was a very poorly explained part of the series, but i think that the avatar makes it pretty clear that Kurama is involved.

      Ravenlot 27 wrote: It doesn't make any sense. Otherwise, neither Madara nor Hashi could be reanimated, since they would have the same souls as Indra/Asura and Sasuke/Naruto respectively, which wouldn't allow them to be summoned to the world of living because of their souls still staying within Sasuke/Naruto.

      The souls of Ashura and Indra coexist with their transmigrant vessel. Hagoromo specified that Madara's transmigration was over, so what got revived was Madara and Madara alone.

        Loading editor
    • 2 souls in 1 body pretty much

        Loading editor
    • Thekillman wrote: Not necessarily. The stuff Black Zetsu are made of is a pretty weak copy of Hashirama's power. Kabuto was experimenting on Zetsu (he did study Yamato and used him to make Zetsu stronger), so if that's the source he added, Sasuke would be hard-pressed to use Wood Release. Obito only used it when strengthened by spiral zetsu.

      Remember madara took a bite of hashi's flesh.. his body was eventually "invaded" by those cells.. If what happened to sasuke is true than he too would get invaded by those cells.Allowing him to use the wood release
      PS: I think you are talking abt White zetsu not the black one.

      Thekillman wrote: The souls of Ashura and Indra coexist with their transmigrant vessel. Hagoromo specified that Madara's transmigration was over, so what got revived was Madara and Madara alone.

      I don't get what you mean by "over". If a person is dies and somehow gets rebirth how does that makes his transmigration over?
        Loading editor
    • Okay, 2 souls in one body at least explains something.

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: I don't get what you mean by "over". If a person is dies and somehow gets rebirth how does that makes his transmigration over?

      Well, if the souls really cling to their new vessels and their own souls respectivelly, then Madara wasn't a vessel for Indra's soul anymore, since Indra's soul was already clinging to Sasuke back then. Even after Madara's revival, it stayed by Sasuke and presumably continues to stay in the present day.

        Loading editor
    • Ravenlot 27 wrote: Well, if the souls really cling to their new vessels and their own souls respectively, then Madara wasn't a vessel for Indra's soul anymore, since Indra's soul was already clinging to Sasuke back then. Even after Madara's revival, it stayed by Sasuke and presumably continues to stay in the present day.

      So was Madara was soulless? Besides I think the chakra itself (or related)is somehow the soul in naruto's context(since hagoromo clearly said it was Ashura's chakra which was clinging)
        Loading editor
    • See the explanation above, if databook says that souls do really reincarnate, then they must co-exist with the new vessel's soul. So no, Madara still had his own soul, but lost the soul of Indra which remained with him during his actual lifetime, yet has already gone to Sasuke at this moment (note: Sasuke still has his own soul as well). And yeah, chakra is here too, it can be a separate thing from the soul, but I also think that throughout the series it was implied soul and chakra are rather related terms.

        Loading editor
    • Ten Tails IS Senjutsu basically. Becoming a TTJ you automatically get Senjutsu. Once you add Senjutsu to SPC, it becomes SPSC. The Rinnegan was already set to awaken eventually for Sasuke, since Kabuto literally repaired his heart by pumping Hashirama cells into the wound, and using Medical Ninjutsu at the same time. Half of Hag's own pure and huge chakra that he gifted Sasuke himself simply boosted the process and somehow changed Sasuke's Normal Rinnegan into a one-eyed Tomoe Rinnegan.. which is Sasuke's Left Rinnegan combined with his EMS and making it awaken right then and there while giving Sasuke a temporary boost so he can fight against Madara. Some things are more simple and we don't need to dig so deep to look for tedious info that isn't there.

        Loading editor
    • Thekillman wrote:

      LegionZero wrote:

      Definition of power is still your assumption.

      Your idea is equally an assumption. Judging by what we know from the Manga however, it would be really weird if he gave Ashura actual power.

      It's also not been stated outright. The anime adaptation of events has so many contradictions it's clear that it's entirely non-canon

      The manga states he gave Ashura power and leadership of Ninshu. Depictions of Ashura afterwards shows him using powers similar to SPSM and TSB and Hag said his mistake was giving one son everything and then divided his literal power equally between Sasuke and Naruto.

      Giving Ashura SPSM/at the very least 6 Paths Chakra would only upgrade the power he already had, so he wouldn't have all/absolute power.

        Loading editor
    • Elveonora wrote: 2 souls in 1 body pretty much

      exactly. Madara after his Rinne Rebirth was just his own soul. Sasuke possessed Indra's soul as well as his own.

      QuakingStar wrote: Some things are more simple and we don't need to dig so deep to look for tedious info that isn't there.

      I agree with your analysis.

      LegionZero wrote: Giving Ashura SPSM/at the very least 6 Paths Chakra would only upgrade the power he already had, so he wouldn't have all/absolute power.

      The manga simply states that Hagoromo gave Ashura power, but leaves it unspecified what exactly that power was. He was made leader of Ninshu, which at the time basically meant he was World Leader, so political power isn't as lame as it sounds.

      I disagree with Ashura's abilities looking like SPSM, the manga version shows something more akin to a Kurama Avatar wielding Bijudama. All the specifics of SPSM (IE cloak, eyes) are not distinguishable. It's possible the cloak doesn't match perfectly because Kurama only gave him chakra (which would also resolve a number of other problems, e.g. why Kurama wouldn't remember him as the first jinchuriki). I'm not saying that interpretation is fact, sadly Kishimoto wasn't terribly clear on this part of history, i'm saying that it's more likely.

      Also, since you now suggest Hagoromo only gave him SPSM, does that mean that you agree that both transmigrants can awaken Rinnegan?

        Loading editor
    • Why do you think those are TBB instead of TSB? The avatar seems to be using them in melee range, that would be a weird application of TBB

        Loading editor
    • Elveonora wrote: Why do you think those are TBB instead of TSB? The avatar seems to be using them in melee range, that would be a weird application of TBB

      Rasengan has a melee application, which is weird as well...

      But the practical reason? Bijudama are reasonably easy to obtain for a person whereas TSB's arent. And it's especially easy if he really did have Wood Release and was the progenitor of the Uzumaki.

      EDIT: i just realized... is there anything that said that TBB's are biju-only? I mean only a Biju has the kind of chakra and stupidity to use such a technique, but what would prevent Ashura from learning TBB's and using it? or what prevents anyone from learning it? (other than stupendous chakra requirements and being a really inefficient jutsu)

        Loading editor
    • Only Biju can use TBB yes and jinchuuriki. So either Asura was a jinchuuriki, had SPS or both. Also using TBB in melee is stupid, since Asura would take damage as well, not to mention TBB is a projectile technique, it has to be fired, no evidence it can be used melee. Also this topic was about Sasuke's Rinnegan, not sure how it became about Asura's powers

        Loading editor
    • Sasukes rinnegan is from both kabuto and hag.Kabuto gifted him rinnegan and hag gifted him tomoes.(my oppinon)

        Loading editor
    • No, the tomoes is the Sharingan

        Loading editor
    • Well he wouldnt be able to keep tomoes since rinnegan and sharingan are seprate dojutsus.

        Loading editor
    • His Sharingan is just active over his Rinnegan that's all, although only he has shown such a capability unlike Madara

        Loading editor
    • Thats why i think hag gifted him it^^.

        Loading editor
    • No disagreement about that considering that not only can Sasuke activate Sharingan in his Rinnegan eye and use both at once, but also it got manifested within minutes while it took Madara years. So most likely Hashirama's cells have nothing to do with Sasuke's Rinnegan, although he still may have them... Not really 100℅ proof if he does or doesn't tho

        Loading editor
    • Thekillman wrote: Rasengan has a melee application, which is weird as well...

      But the practical reason? Bijudama are reasonably easy to obtain for a person whereas TSB's arent. And it's especially easy if he really did have Wood Release and was the progenitor of the Uzumaki.

      Rasengan doesn't explode on impact.... Rasengan is based off of the TBB so presumably thats as close as humans can get. TBB are also super heavy. The positive/negative or black/white chakra seems to be a form that only the bijuu can access/process.

        Loading editor
    • Elveonora wrote: So most likely Hashirama's cells have nothing to do with Sasuke's Rinnegan, although he still may have them... Not really 100℅ proof if he does or doesn't tho

      I don't see why they'd be mutually exclusive. Sasuke met the conditions for Hagoromo to manifest with Hashirama's cells (probably got some chakra from Kurama in one of their collabs, e.g. Majestic Attire). Hagoromo ensures that Sasuke can manifest both Dojutsu in one eye. Hagoromo shaped the power that Sasuke naturally awoke.

      After all, the conditions to meet Hagoromo are Indra+Ashura+Kurama. Madara never possessed all three at the same time (well until he was a living god).

        Loading editor
    • Why Kurama though

        Loading editor
    • Thekillman wrote: Sasuke met the conditions for Hagoromo to manifest with Hashirama's cells (probably got some chakra from Kurama in one of their collabs, e.g. Majestic Attire).

      I don't think Hashi Cells from Kabuto still contains Asura's Chakra. I think the cells are only used to heal the wounds, with a slight possibly of giving Sasuke Wood Release.

        Loading editor
    • Elveonora wrote: Why Kurama though

      For some reason, Kurama is mentioned among Indra/Asura chakra components. And Hagoromo specifically corrected himself that it's not like Madara + Hashi + Ten-Tails chakra, but Indra + Asura + Kurama chakra. I have no idea why he said so. It could be used as an argument for Asura's connection to Kurama (avatar and stuff), but I'm not really sure it's true.

        Loading editor
    • I thought the same thing, that the reason for that is that Asura also had Kurama's Chakra

        Loading editor
    • Elveonora wrote: I thought the same thing, that the reason for that is that Asura also had Kurama's Chakra

      But the avatar only looks like Kurama, it's not actually Kurama. Asura's avatar has a human body, black necklace, two whiskers only, and the face looks more like a rabbit than a fox.

        Loading editor
    • Its more like fox-rabbit in one body.

        Loading editor
    • One thing to consider. When Naruto created the triple Kurama avatar, the Kurama chakra constructs had a damaged face, so perhaps Naruto's would have looked like Asura's if made while undamaged, so Naruto's version could simply be a less finished form of what Asura did, hence the difference.

        Loading editor
    • Elveonora wrote: When Naruto created the triple Kurama avatar, the Kurama chakra constructs had a damaged face, so perhaps Naruto's would have looked like Asura's if made while undamaged, so Naruto's version could simply be a less finished form of what Asura did, hence the difference.

      I don't know, I think there's a reason why it looks like a rabbit. It could be hinting that it's related to the Ten-Tails somehow. But I personally believe that it's somehow manifested through the Adamantine Chains, which is like a parallel ability to the Susanoo.

        Loading editor
    • Asura has never interacted with Kurama. Why is that so hard to understand?

        Loading editor
    • Elveonora wrote: Why Kurama though

      I guess that since Kurama is the biggest portion of the Juubi, he's sort of representative of the Jinchuriki side of Hagoromo (since Hagoromo was Juubi Jinchuriki for a very, very long time). So Ashura = body, Indra = mind, Kurama = spirit (ie, a trinity) and so reinforced Hagoromo's chakra enough to summon him.

      Naruto and Sasuke both met the conditions: Notably, Sasuke was in contact with Kurama not long before (ie Majestic Attire) and got Hashi cells (though personally i think they're zetsu cells, explaining the absence of Wood Release. Same goes for Naruto's prosthetic).

      Naruto obviously met two of the three conditions in life. He could've gotten Indra chakra from Sasuke (IE Majestic Attire) or Madara/Obito. Black Zetsu noted that the Transmigrants were usually not so cooperative, so it's likely that Sasuke's Majestic Attire allowed both to meet the conditions. Considering they were both busy fighting though, it's probable that they weren't aware of the connection until they were near death. Alternatively, it was Naruto becoming pseudo-juubi jinchuriki and Sasuke getting Hashirama cells that strengthened this connection to the point Hagoromo could communicate.


      As to the Rabbit similarities, i think it's simpy a side-effect of Ashura. When Kaguya went out of control, Kurama's face looked somewhat rabbit-like. I guess that the Rabbit is the Otsutsuki clan animal (also since it has connections to the Moon) and since Ashura is an Otsutsuki, Kurama's avatar morphed.

        Loading editor
    • A FANDOM user
        Loading editor
Give Kudos to this message
You've given this message Kudos!
See who gave Kudos to this message
Community content is available under CC-BY-SA unless otherwise noted.