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  • its that simple. suigetsu has all his shippuden jutsu and his sword, vs 5th gate lee, no weights, and up to the kimimaro fight (he may, or may not, use drunken fist before using the gates, so its ur choice. if he does, then seuigestu gets a big pond to work with- something bigger than a pool).. bonus round: same suigetsu, but vs pts gaara, up to the kimimaru fight. gaara can use all his pts jutsu.

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    • why did you make it Vs Rock Lee? Wasn't it supposed to be Vs Gaara?
      Lee would lose probably. It's too high recoil for him(For Gates or even if he uses drunken fist) and Suigetsu definitely doesn't need a pond.
      If its versus Gaara and on neutral grounds than its Probably suigetsu winning the fight.

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    • u said we needed reasons for our arguments, and I don't see any reasons yet

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    • Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: u said we needed reasons for our arguments, and I don't see any reasons yet

      Well once Gaara sand becomes wet what is he gonna do? In fact his armor would peel off after being wet like that episode where the sand village tried to eliminate him when he was enlisted with regular troops.

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    • nothing happens to his sand if it gets. but if gets oily, then he has problems. and that was a filler ep. and suigetsu doenst have anything to get past gaara's sand.

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    • Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: nothing happens to his sand if it gets. but if gets oily, then he has problems. and that was a filler ep. and suigetsu doenst have anything to get past gaara's sand.

      Ahm water? And two its pretty mutual. If Gaara's sand can't do much to kill him either, And two it wasn't oil it was water I am quite sure.

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    • actually, pretty sure his sand can squish the shit outta suigetsu (like comprass him into a ping pong ball, which would likely kill him)

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    • Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: actually, pretty sure his sand can squish the shit outta suigetsu (like comprass him into a ping pong ball, which would likely kill him)

      You can't compress water that easily. Two it would wet his sand just like the fight with Gengetsu Hozuki. There Gaara's sand became ineffective so much that he couldn't save his cohorts and barely saves himself. Three than there is the Zabusa's Sword.
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    • his sand tanked a nuke. I think compressing a few liters isn't that hard for him. gengetsu, like I said, uses oil, which is the opposite of water. and zabuza's sword couldn't even hurt obito's normal arm when suigetsu was using it.

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    • Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: his sand tanked a nuke. I think compressing a few liters isn't that hard for him. gengetsu, like I said, uses oil, which is the opposite of water. and zabuza's sword couldn't even hurt obito's normal arm when suigetsu was using it.

      Compressing is different. Pressurizing liquid is exceedingly difficult. More difficult than defending against a blast from one direction.

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    • In the Gaara vs Second Mizukage fight, his sand becomes wet but he is still able to control it.

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    • 0-TentouAlucard-0 wrote: In the Gaara vs Second Mizukage fight, his sand becomes wet but he is still able to control it.

      It became notably more difficult for Gaara to do so. He couldn't hold the Mizukage in his sand burial, despite it being one of his stronger techniques. So i don't think he'd be able to use the same techniques on Suigetsu.

      Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: gengetsu, like I said, uses oil, which is the opposite of water.

      Not really. It would lubricate the sand more than water, so it's less coherent (and Gaara's techniques depend on compressing sand for hardness and strength), but water effectively does the same.

      Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: his sand tanked a nuke. I think compressing a few liters isn't that hard for him.

      Water is virtually incompressible. Also, it didn't really tank a nuke, it deflected the explosion upwards. While impressive, it's not like he absorbed the full force of a giant explosion.

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    • I am pretty sure Mizukage used Water. He even used that steam clone for which Gaara had to use Gold dust to cool it.
      Also for the filler episode they too used water, it's here Gaara's Bond

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    • of course he used water. that's not the problem, since he HAD to use oil to get out of gaara's prison.... people are saying that it is hard to compress water, so ill take that back. but cant that just make suigetsu into an ice cube? and if that doesn't work, gaara's can still getting him inside a sand or something like that. and im pretty sure that shippuden suigetsu inst faster lee, or even cm lvl 1 kimimaru (both of whom HAVE been caught by gaara's sand before)

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    • @Lorenzo.r.2nd, When Lee took his weights off, Gaara never got Lee with his sand until Lee used a Gate and suffered from the backlash.

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    • Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: people are saying that it is hard to compress water, so ill take that back. but cant that just make suigetsu into an ice cube?

      I wanted to briefly elaborate on this. It's not just water that is effectively incompressible. Any close-packed or near-close-packed solid is effectively incompressible. It's because the atoms are already in a near ideal configuration, and compressing further means fighting the exclusion principle. Which is possible, but that sort of stuff happens in supernovae and neutron star formation.

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    • well, we compress metals all the time (and no, we don't use exploding suns to do this, btw). gaara's sand can generate millions of tons (exaggerated a bit) of force. isn't that enough to compress a human body made of water?

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    • Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: well, we compress metals all the time (and no, we don't use exploding suns to do this, btw). gaara's sand can generate millions of tons (exaggerated a bit) of force. isn't that enough to compress a human body made of water?

      Which metal did we actually compressed? And two that pressure isn't enough since the man in question would just liquefy and drain out of sand. Just like rain water pours through gravel to form ground water.

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    • lol u mean the sand that withstood projectiles harder than bullets by being solidified? I don't think that water can pass through something that dense. its like saying that he can pass through something denser than glass. water cant do that.

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    • Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: lol u mean the sand that withstood projectiles harder than bullets by being solidified? I don't think that water can pass through something that dense. its like saying that he can pass through something denser than glass. water cant do that.

      Well Bullets can barely go few cm in Sand nothing great about it. You seriously haven't heard of water table?
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    • nope. why don't u explain it me? and if it, by any chance, means that suigetsu can pass through something with less space to pass through than glass (and survive, since his whole body is being separated into molecules), then problem solved.

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    • Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: nope. why don't u explain it me? and if it, by any chance, means that suigetsu can pass through something with less space to pass through than glass (and survive, since his whole body is being separated into molecules), then problem solved.

      Since when did Sand become glass?
      Two Suigetsu has already shown he can squeeze through spaces. However that's not the point. The important thing is Sand can't compress water. Water would just pore through sand like it usually does.

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    • really? when has suigetsu passed through something like that? wait, when has he ever passed through anything? and although normal water can pass through normal, and wide-spaced sand, it cant pass through a sand dense enough to tank shit harder than bullets.

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    • But Suigetsu has liquefied himself out of several prison only the one with glass was holding him at the hideout. If really a sand one could have hold him do you really think Orochimaru wouldn't have used it? Afterall Finding Sand is lot easier or rocks for that matter. Shouldn't you be the one providing proof about how Gaara is gonna compress a liquid?

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    • I already said that I took that back. see, THIS is why I hate talking to u man. u never read the whole comment, so now I have to keep repeating the same shit again and again. anyways, suigetsu cant pass through tons (yes, gaara has that much sand at his availability) of sand that was densed up into this tiny ball of sand, 10 meters underground. oh, and IF (really big if, since he would have to make himself water vapor, which he cant do, and pass through a lot of sand very slowly, going up against gravity in that form [veeery hard in his case], and not breathing all the while) he does get out from that, what can he to gaara that gaara cant dodge from, or at least protect himself from (he can do both, as we know that he reacted to lee, and counterattacked lee, and even used a sub midair while being attacked by the same)? like, lee was faster than pts kakashi, who is not know for his speed, but is still fast all the while. is suigetsu faster than kakashi?

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    • Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: I already said that I took that back. see, THIS is why I hate talking to u man. u never read the whole comment, so now I have to keep repeating the same shit again and again. anyways, suigetsu cant pass through tons (yes, gaara has that much sand at his availability) of sand that was densed up into this tiny ball of sand, 10 meters underground. oh, and IF (really big if, since he would have to make himself water vapor, which he cant do, and pass through a lot of sand very slowly, going up against gravity in that form [veeery hard in his case], and not breathing all the while) he does get out from that, what can he to gaara that gaara cant dodge from, or at least protect himself from (he can do both, as we know that he reacted to lee, and counterattacked lee, and even used a sub midair while being attacked by the same)? like, lee was faster than pts kakashi, who is not know for his speed, but is still fast all the while. is suigetsu faster than kakashi?

      Mr. Hater You don't like to repeat, But you always make illogical statements.
      Didn't we agree that both Garaa and Suigetsu are fighting on neutral turf? (see very First Comment)That means no extra sand other than that from gourd. If you are so concerned about the ground consider it to be solid steel or Concrete something which Can't be broken by Gaara's sand. If suigetsu doesn't has extra water than Gaara isn't getting any advantage either. Two Lee outsped Gaara's sand easily in the gates. I don't know how Suigetsu becoming faster than Kakashi statement came up but you are underestimating Water Pistol Jutsu (Hozuki Style).

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    • Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: well, we compress metals all the time

      Uh what now? We don't compress metals all the time. We can compress things because they have empty space, and we reduce the amount of it. But atoms themselves are essentially hard spheres, and once they touch, you aren't really compressing them further. Brick contains a lot of pores, but once you've compressed it far enough that the atoms touch, you aren't compressing them further. And you can compress air only until the atoms touch, after which you aren't really compressing this further. Fusion works by getting these atomic cores together, and also takes enormous amounts of kinetic energy (temperatures in the millions of degrees) and enormous amounts of pressure.

      Suigetsu can turn himself to water. Not like individual cell control like Ukon and Sakon, but into actual water. We've seen that if he's unconscious he loses form and we've seen that he can easily pass through objects.

      So it seems to me that when Gaara compresses him with sand, the exact same thing will happen that we saw with blood, it will squirt out. And since Suigetsu can control his form, he would likely just gather the water and reform himself.

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    • @thekillman water has gases in it. problem solved. have u never seen a fish swim real fucking fast in front of u, and bubbles came out? (oh, and I NEVER said that the atoms needed to be compressed. never. but gaara's sand could most likely be strong enough to turn suigetsu into ice). ps, u are using examples in which blood came out from wide open holes. and he could only get out of gaara's sand burial if he was as strong as cm lvl 2 kimimaru, of if he could turn himself into vapor (he cant do either). oh, and suigetsu cant reattach anything that has been cut off into little pieces. he hasn't even that much yet. getting out of gaara's is impossible for him... @namikaze, why don't u quote one of my illogical statements then? and when did we agree on that. gaara can turn almost any surface into minerals that can be added into sand (and if we use water as the place of the battle, then gaara's at too much of an disadvantage). oh, and the lee/kakashi thing means: kakashi could only perceive lee with a full power sharingan, while base gaara was reacting to him, making gaara already as fast as suigetsu, since suigetsu cant be any faster than kakashi, who fought guy, who would hit on lee's speed. its basic logic.

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    • Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: @thekillman water has gases in it. problem solved.

      That's not how it works. At all.

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    • really? cuz Im not really that smart, but I do know that if gases can fit in the in-between, then it can be compressed further (SINCE IT TURNS INTO FUCKING ICE).

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    • Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: really? cuz Im not really that smart, but I do know that if gases can fit in the in-between, then it can be compressed further (SINCE IT TURNS INTO FUCKING ICE).

      Okay.

      Water doesn't have gases in it. Water can be a gas (water vapour). But Liquid water has no gas in it.

      Water is also unique among most materials, being that it expands a s a solid. That's because its molecules arrange in a way that actually has more space in between them than water.

      But no. Liquid water does not have gas in it. If there was any gas, it would be a bubble that rose and popped away

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    • Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: (SINCE IT TURNS INTO FUCKING ICE).

      Normal Ice is less dense than water. Looking at a phase diagram, it would take about 2GPa to 3GPa to compress water into a solid state (Called Ice-7) at room temperature. This particular ice is in fact more dense than water and regular ice. Since we have an actual value, we can ask ourselves if Gaara can reach those values.

      I don't know how strong Kimimaro's bones are supposed to be. Steel comes in a great variety of strengths, but if we assume Kishimoto did some research and went for wire-drawn qualities or maraging qualities, then we get steels in excess of 2GPa tensile strength. The bones get compressed uniformly so there's no buckling, and we can assume Kishimoto doesn't know enough material science to take into account any compression/tensile asymmetry. Gaara couldn't break this bone, meaning that he doesn't have the compressive power to turn Suigetsu to ice at room temperature. If those bones were much stronger than that, then there's no point comparing it to steel (I'd go with diamond, for instance). Hence, we can comfortably say that Gaara can't turn Suigetsu to ice-7 nor regular ice.

      AsianReaper wrote: Water doesn't have gases in it. Water can be a gas (water vapour). But Liquid water has no gas in it.

      A gas can dissolve in water. But a gas is a phase in which individual atoms don't "feel" each other, or at least "feel" each other barely. If it dissolves in water, then the atoms that made up the gas are now surrounded by water molecules. Hence, the dissolved atoms are not in a gaseous state anymore as they clearly are "felt" by the water molecules. After all, if the water molecules didn't "feel" the dissolved gas molecules, then those molecules wouldn't stay dissolved.


      Lorenzo.r.2nd w rote: really? cuz Im not really that smart, but I do know that if gases can fit in the in-between, then it can be compressed further (SINCE IT TURNS INTO FUCKING ICE).

      There is no rule that states that dissolving gas into liquid demands that the volume doesn't change. Gas is simply a much less dense state. A liter of water weights a kilogram. A liter of air weighs a few grams. If you dissolved a liter of gas in a liter of air, you'd have a weight increase in the order of grams. As such, under equal density, the volume change of the water would also be a few percent. a few percent of a liter is a few dozen mililiters, or a few droplets. You'll never notice.

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    • @thekillman. that wasn't really my point tho. and suigetsu breathes, meaning that even if HIS water (his water-body prolly has a different liquid in it, or mixed in it, as it isn't actual, natural water. just a guess) doesn't have gases in it (im gonna say no, it doenst, just for the sake of having less problems in this thread) he would have the air in his lungs anyways, meaning that while that would be pushed out from his liquid body, he would be pure, enclosed, and immovable water. I reaaaaallly doubt that he can pass through gaara's sand, since it is reaaally dense. and if suigetsu stays there too long, he will die. it would take waaaay longer than for a normal person to die, but he isn't immortal (he DOES need to breath, and cant really regen himself without other water sources), so even if gaara's doesn't win the regular, "i killed u" way, he would win default. that's my bottom line right now. if u have an answer to how suigetsu can respond to that, go ahead.

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    • I would go with Sugetsu based on his water gun and drowning ablity's his bother has. being made of water Lee lacks any taking him out.

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    • so NOT being able to win is ur answer? u just basically said suigetsu wins just cuz. suigetsu can barely touch base lee. and base lee's strength is also higher than his as well. he cant win like that

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    • Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: so NOT being able to win is ur answer? u just basically said suigetsu wins just cuz. suigetsu can barely touch base lee. and base lee's strength is also higher than his as well. he cant win like that

      He was able to Shoot tobi with his water guns. Also air is in water.

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    • when tha fuck did this happen?

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    • When they was fighting Obito.

      Mizudeppō_Nichō.png

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    • @Nerosmoke
      that isn't Obito it is Yamato

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    • A small correction: it's Tobi (Zetsu), who has Yamato inside it to strengthen itself.

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    • Ohh. it looks like tobi.

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    • same suit, different person

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    • Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: I reaaaaallly doubt that he can pass through gaara's sand, since it is reaaally dense.

      Even at the immense aforementioned pressures, sand is not fully consolidated. So even then there would be room for the water to move. Considering that Gaara will be trying to compress him massively, the immense amount of energy that he's storing in the water will make it blast out of any pore, no matter how small. I don't see anything else happen other than that when Gaara tries to squish him, a few thin jets of water will blast out and Suigetsu restores himself.

      As to breathing, we saw that Suigetsu can survive in a water tank just fine, so evidently he can breathe water. So no, even in water form he won't suffocate.

      Also, considering that the Mizukage could weaken his sand with water and oil (i checked and he used both), Gaara couldn't keep Suigetsu nicely confined since the water would just make a way by locally weakening the structure.

      Seem to me that Gaara is better off with tactics other than compressing him (which won't work) or trying to turn him to ice (which he cant)

      Nerosmoke wrote: Ohh. it looks like tobi.

      Please delete that picture, it's twice as wide as this thread and messing up the layout.

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    • ok, say that I cant counter any of the points u just made (I can counter a few, but not all, so ill give u that.. and im kinda lazy lol), how would suigetsu win? he cant touch gaara. not with strength or power, and much less with speed. even total surprise attacks wont work on him, so what can he do? he cant run, since that means he would lose, and if he tries to hide, gaara could find him. he has the means to.

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    • Logically water beats sand and gaara has shown no evidence of controlling wet sand at all. Suigetsu is capable of creating a huge supply of water to go against gaara as shown here. I believe gaara sand will be weakened upon going against a water body ninja as suigetsu. Sand coffin will not work on a person that can split into water anytime.

      And if Mangetsu is the example then Sugetsu can drown Gaara.

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    • water wont do shit to his sand. not by itself at least. and where did u take the info that he can create huge supplies of water from?... and what?

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    • Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: how would suigetsu win? he cant touch gaara.

      The best strategy i can come up with is to deny Gaara his fighting style. Try to gather as much water as he can, suit up into that giant water form and try to break through in a concentrated attack. If he can use water to soften up gaara's defenses, then he could use Water Bullet to end Gaara without having to go against all that sand.

      Obviously, environment plays a huge role here since both Gaara and Suigetsu start with minimal material, and both can gather massive power from the environment.

      Against gaara, surprises work also well. He needs time to set up his jutsu (since he either needs to gather sand or move massive amounts around into position), so the simplest strategy i can come up with is that Suigetsu doesn't bother at all and just attacks him immediately, wets his sand with any water he conjures and then shoots his Water Bullet through a soft spot. It's difficult to judge exactly how much water Suigetsu can conjure, but if Gaara just has his normal amount (IE his gourd) then i'm fairly sure Suigetsu's normal supply plus whatever amount he can conjure should be enough.

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    • so u say suigetsu wets gaara's sand? the same sand that covered and devastated a forest? that A LOT of sand. does he have that much water? no, but IF he does, then will have no more chakra left afterwards. gaara then wins, as gaara has a bigger pool than suigetsu, as well as the magnet release from his dad.

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