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  • Rules:

    1. This is Naruto from the final chapter of Naruto Gaiden: The Seventh Hokage and the Scarlet Spring without any injuries; whereas this is Kaguya before her final defeat without any injuries.

    2. Naruto is in prime, got Body Modifications done on him & new prototype mechanical prosthesis, removes Eight Trigrams Sealing Style, has Six Paths Yang Power, enters Sage Mode, goes Kurama Mode & Six Paths Sage Mode, transforms into Tailed Beast Mode & Asura Kurama Mode, combines both Yin & Yang Kurama, wields Truth-Seeking Ball, Shakujō, Chakra Blades, Flying Thunder God Kunai, Fūma Shuriken, Hidden Kunai Mechanism, Sand, Scroll of Seals & Shadow Clone Summoning Scroll, gets possessed by Kurama, dips in Sacred Oil, fuses with Fukasaku & Shima, and summons all Mount Myōboku's toads.

    3. Kaguya is in prime, ate chakra fruit, fused with God Tree, absorbs chakra to limit & Yin Kurama, has dual Byakugan & Rinne Sharingan, and wields All-Killing Ash Bones.

    4. 1-on-1 death battle.

    5. No interference or holding back.

    The final location in Kaguya's Dimensions, now let the death battle begin!

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    • i gotta be honest: since this is composite naruto, he is easily three times stronger than what we saw at his max (4th war/boruto movie), and he may win against the kaguya that we saw in their fight. but against prime kaguya? he gets wrecked. not destroyed, but just wrecked.

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    • Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: i gotta be honest: since this is composite naruto, he is easily three times stronger than what we saw at his max (4th war/boruto movie), and he may win against the kaguya that we saw in their fight. but against prime kaguya? he gets wrecked. not destroyed, but just wrecked.

      Prime Kaguya? Is that even a thing?

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    • yeah. its kaguya, but with all the bijuu, a brand new, full powered shinjuu fruit, and not just recently awoken.

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    • Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: yeah. its kaguya, but with all the bijuu, a brand new, full powered shinjuu fruit, and not just recently awoken.

      Ah! Now I remember! It's the Kaguya that trapped her lover in Mugen Tsukuyomi! But she was pregnant...

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    • Goddammit! I was hoping for more people to comment!

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    • JohnCenaNation wrote: Goddammit! I was hoping for more people to comment!

      The amount of random crap in this versus makes me wonder how serious i should take. Naruto has Kurama mode, but also chakra blades and sand? seems pointless.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      JohnCenaNation wrote: Goddammit! I was hoping for more people to comment!

      The amount of random crap in this versus makes me wonder how serious i should take. Naruto has Kurama mode, but also chakra blades and sand? seems pointless.

      http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Naruto_Uzumaki

      It's part of Naruto's ninja tools duh.

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    • JohnCenaNation wrote: it's part of Naruto's ninja tools duh.

      What's some sand, or a kunai gonna change? At this point, even his punches do more damage than that kunai ever could.

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    • Thekillman wrote: The amount of random crap in this versus makes me wonder how serious i should take. Naruto has Kurama mode, but also chakra blades and sand? seems pointless.

      Even D-rank technique like Reverse Harem worked on her, so why not? JohnCenaNation has given the advanced description of the rules. The more it`s detailed, the better for specualtion, even if some of points can be excluded out of their uselessness.

      Btw, can Kaguya be killed at all? She`s immortal, after all.

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    • LovelyFox wrote:

      Thekillman wrote: The amount of random crap in this versus makes me wonder how serious i should take. Naruto has Kurama mode, but also chakra blades and sand? seems pointless.

      Even D-rank technique like Reverse Harem worked on her, so why not? JohnCenaNation has given the advanced description of the rules. The more it`s detailed, the better for specualtion, even if some of points can be excluded out of their uselessness.

      Btw, can Kaguya be killed at all? She`s immortal, after all.

      Immortal characters can still be killed in Naruto, which means they are not really immortal, they simply heal really fast. All Naruto needs to do is blow her up completely at sub-atomic level.

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    • so yeah, she is semi immortal, if the only way to kill her is by utterly destroying her completely.

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    • Lorenzo.r.2nd wrote: so yeah, she is semi immortal, if the only way to kill her is by utterly destroying her completely.

      Her immortality is a combination of eternal life and regeneration, that's it. Her immortality is not deadless where she can be killed and be brought back to life, lol. Like I said, all Naruto needs to do is blow her up to the point she can't heal and would die and would stay dead.

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    • Is this a joke ?

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    • JohnCenaNation wrote:

      Immortal characters can still be killed in Naruto, which means they are not really immortal, they simply heal really fast. All Naruto needs to do is blow her up completely at sub-atomic level.

      Well, she’s extremely durable since 9 Rasenshuriken barely did her any damage. To completely destroy her, he obviously needs more firepower than he had in the VOTE2.

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    • JohnCenaNation wrote: Her immortality is a combination of eternal life and regeneration, that's it. Her immortality is not deadless where she can be killed and be brought back to life, lol. Like I said, all Naruto needs to do is blow her up to the point she can't heal and would die and would stay dead.

      No, she's actually immortal as in "come back from the dead" immortal. The Biju possess the power of reincarnation. The Juubi is made from them, so it possesses that power too (which is why it got sealed and not just destroyed). Kaguya, in her revived state, had the same power as the juubi. So yea, if she dies she reincarnates. It's why she can only be sealed.

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    • Kaguya can't be killed. This is why she was needed to be sealed away. Even as know, Kaguya is not dead. She is trapped in Six Paths CT, but still alive. She can't be killed, only sealed away. And Naruto doesn't have a strong enough sealing jutsu as far as we know. Six Paths — Chibaku Tensei still is the strongest sealing jutsu, and it was required to seal Kaguya. So Naruto can't win.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      JohnCenaNation wrote: Her immortality is a combination of eternal life and regeneration, that's it. Her immortality is not deadless where she can be killed and be brought back to life, lol. Like I said, all Naruto needs to do is blow her up to the point she can't heal and would die and would stay dead.

      No, she's actually immortal as in "come back from the dead" immortal. The Biju possess the power of reincarnation. The Juubi is made from them, so it possesses that power too (which is why it got sealed and not just destroyed). Kaguya, in her revived state, had the same power as the juubi. So yea, if she dies she reincarnates. It's why she can only be sealed.

      According to Vs Battles Wiki, she is only immortal in Type 1 and 3, which is eternal life and regeneration, not type 5 which is deadless immortality. Plus have we really seen a biju come back to life from death at all in Naruto? Cause I read the manga, and haven't seen anyone come back to life from death with the exception of jutsus. Also immortality =/= invincibility. While Kaguya is immortal, she can't keep fighting forever and would still lose in a fight, just like Ban from Seven Deadly Sins lost to a female Holy Knight.

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    • Kaguya is also durable. You guys are talking about how Kaguya can be blown off by Naruto, when Kaguya probably more durable than anyone in the series and Naruto is the one, who has to escape her attacks.

      Plus, remember, the gravity dimension and the ice dimension is the only dimensions where Naruto is extremely at an advantage, if it wasn't for Sasuke's Ameno at the gravity dimension and his Amaterasu at the Ice dimension, then. Naruto would have been taken down by Kaguya. They both need each other. And especially to seal Kaguya down.

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    • BlazeRelease wrote: Kaguya is also durable. You guys are talking about how Kaguya can be blown off by Naruto, when Kaguya probably more durable than anyone in the series and Naruto is the one, who has to escape her attacks.

      Plus, remember, the gravity dimension and the ice dimension is the only dimensions where Naruto is extremely at an advantage, if it wasn't for Sasuke's Ameno at the gravity dimension and his Amaterasu at the Ice dimension, then. Naruto would have been taken down by Kaguya. They both need each other. And especially to seal Kaguya down.

      That's why I made it one location in Kaguya's Dimensions. So the fight doesn't go all over the places.

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    • JohnCenaNation wrote: Ah! Now I remember! It's the Kaguya that trapped her lover in Mugen Tsukuyomi! But she was preganant...

      pregananant?

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    • UntappedRage wrote: pregananant?

      I think it's pretty obvious that he meant pregnent, lol.

      JohnCenaNation wrote:

      That's why I made it one location in Kaguya's Dimensions. So the fight doesn't go all over the places.

      Even then, Kaguya's Rinne Sharingan allowed her to change dimensions. Unless you mean that she in this situation is not allowed to change dimensions, then it can be reasonable.

      Even then, it's not like Naruto has any advantage over Kaguya. Though I wonder about the Kurama Sage mode he did. I just wonder how effective it can be against Kaguya. At the end of the day, Kaguya will still have a ton of chakra left with Naruto down for the day.
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    • Technically, Naruto can also refill his chakra back. He can have shadow clones absorb massive amount of NY and just use that to restore himself.

      Asura Kurama mode is around Sasuke's Bijuu Susanoo level, who was said by Kurama to be Hagoromo level. Hagoromo needed Hamura to beat "prime" Kaguya. But again, that doesn't matter. Naruto's strongest attack is still the twin rasenshurikens that he used in Asura Kurama Mode, and that most likely won't be enough to kill Kaguya. Kaguya can't be killed. If Hagoromo and Hamura had to seal her away themselves, that pretty much confirms her immortality. Naruto doesn't have a strong enough sealing jutsu, to the capacity of Six Paths: CT.

      If he would've learned over the years the Ripper Death Seal, then maybe he could do something about it. Anyway, even if he would know the Ripper Death Seal, a shadow clone certainly wouldn't be powerful enough to seal her. Only the real Naruto would have that kind of power.

      So, in a best case, if Naruto learned the Ripper Seal (which is totally unproven and uncanon), it would be a draw. That's the only for Naruto to win in my book, which is not even canonically proven.

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    • JohnCenaNation wrote: According to Vs Battles Wiki, she is only immortal in Type 1 and 3

      Don't particularly care what a battle wiki said. She has the same power as Biju, which is the ability to reincarnate in full. The three-tails came back from death, that's all the proof you need.

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    • JohnCenaNation wrote: No, she's actually immortal as in "come back from the dead" immortal. The Biju possess the power of reincarnation. The Juubi is made from them, so it possesses that power too (which is why it got sealed and not just destroyed). Kaguya, in her revived state, had the same power as the juubi. So yea, if she dies she reincarnates. It's why she can only be sealed. According to Vs Battles Wiki, she is only immortal in Type 1 and 3, which is eternal life and regeneration, not type 5 which is deadless immortality. Plus have we really seen a biju come back to life from death at all in Naruto? Cause I read the manga, and haven't seen anyone come back to life from death with the exception of jutsus. Also immortality =/= invincibility. While Kaguya is immortal, she can't keep fighting forever and would still lose in a fight, just like Ban from Seven Deadly Sins lost to a female Holy Knight.

      Deadless immortality ? What is that?
      Anyhow I am pretty sure Kaguya is on highest Tier of Immortality. Also I am pretty sure she posseses perpetual reincarnation too since portion of her chakra possess that power and this is the main reason why Hagoromo splits Jubi chakra into 9 bijus. Hidan would be on very high tiers, considering how he needs nourishment to survive.
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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: Anyhow I am pretty sure Kaguya is on highest Tier of Immortality.

      She's actually two tiers below true immortality: She can be injured, and she can die (she just won't stay dead).

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: Hidan would be on very high tiers, considering how he needs nourishment to survive.

      While in a sense, Hidan is more immortal than her, he also suffers from the fact that he cannot restore his own body. He can be cut to pieces and immobilized. If Kaguya dies, she simply returns in full form and power.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      She's actually two tiers below true immortality: She can be injured, and she can die (she just won't stay dead).
      Immortals can be harmed, They suffer pain, Which is why immortality isn't same as invincibility. The Last statement is something we cannot actually attest to. We don't know what kind of attack could even kill her.

      Thekillman wrote: While in a sense, Hidan is more immortal than her, he also suffers from the fact that he cannot restore his own body. He can be cut to pieces and immobilized. If Kaguya dies, she simply returns in full form and power.

      Hidan is more immortal than her? would you care to explain? I mean I am pretty sure they clearly state that he need nourishment(which would probably men that he could die by drowning or lack of air too). The only thing he immune to is excess application of force and organ failures)
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    • ^I think he means in the sense that you can cut Hidan's head and he'll still remain conscious and very much alive, whereas Kaguya will most likely die momentarily but respawn shortly after.

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    • Mr. Grave wrote: ^I think he means in the sense that you can cut Hidan's head and he'll still remain conscious and very much alive, whereas Kaguya will most likely die momentarily but respawn shortly after.

      @MrGrave
      Don't you think Kaguya would just regenerate from the head? Afterall upper part of Madara regenerated when Sasuke cuts him in two.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: Hidan is more immortal than her? would you care to explain? I mean I am pretty sure they clearly state that he need nourishment(which would probably men that he could die by drowning or lack of air too). The only thing he immune to is excess application of force and organ failures)

      Hidan continues to live even with his head cut off, and can still talk and think despite this. Kaguya could not control her arm when it was cut off.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote:

      JohnCenaNation wrote: No, she's actually immortal as in "come back from the dead" immortal. The Biju possess the power of reincarnation. The Juubi is made from them, so it possesses that power too (which is why it got sealed and not just destroyed). Kaguya, in her revived state, had the same power as the juubi. So yea, if she dies she reincarnates. It's why she can only be sealed. According to Vs Battles Wiki, she is only immortal in Type 1 and 3, which is eternal life and regeneration, not type 5 which is deadless immortality. Plus have we really seen a biju come back to life from death at all in Naruto? Cause I read the manga, and haven't seen anyone come back to life from death with the exception of jutsus. Also immortality =/= invincibility. While Kaguya is immortal, she can't keep fighting forever and would still lose in a fight, just like Ban from Seven Deadly Sins lost to a female Holy Knight.

      Deadless immortality ? What is that?
      Anyhow I am pretty sure Kaguya is on highest Tier of Immortality. Also I am pretty sure she posseses perpetual reincarnation too since portion of her chakra possess that power and this is the main reason why Hagoromo splits Jubi chakra into 9 bijus. Hidan would be on very high tiers, considering how he needs nourishment to survive.

      Deadless immortality is where you die, but then you respawn back to life similar to a video game character. The only way you can stay dead is if someone erase your existence.

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    • BlazeRelease wrote:

      UntappedRage wrote: pregananant?

      I think it's pretty obvious that he meant pregnent, lol.

      prangent?

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    • Well that's a lot of ways to misspell pregnant.

      JohnCenaNation wrote: Deadless immortality is where you die, but then you respawn back to life similar to a video game character. The only way you can stay dead is if someone erase your existence.

      How is that deathless?

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    • Thekillman wrote: Well that's a lot of ways to misspell pregnant.

      JohnCenaNation wrote: Deadless immortality is where you die, but then you respawn back to life similar to a video game character. The only way you can stay dead is if someone erase your existence.

      How is that deathless?

      Because you can't stay dead. That's why, unless someone erases your existence. You will just keep coming back to life.

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    • JohnCenaNation wrote: Deadless immortality is where you die, but then you respawn back to life similar to a video game character. The only way you can stay dead is if someone erase your existence.

      than she has that too.

      Thekillman wrote: Hidan continues to live even with his head cut off, and can still talk and think despite this. Kaguya could not control her arm when it was cut off.

      ^When did this happen?
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    • Thekillman wrote: Well that's a lot of ways to misspell pregnant.

      Lol, sorry about that, I guess.

      Since we are all discussing about Kaguya's immortality and how she can get a good enough blow for her immortal body to suffer mortal death. Can't she also do some superior Izanagi? I mean she has the Rinne Sharingan. So maybe, she could you know, change reality, I think. Though, obviously we don't have any proof of that.

      But here's a question I got curious from Wolverine. As an immortal, one can regenerate or survive any blows to the body. But what about the brain? Like think of a situation where Sasuke teleports his sword or Kunai with Ameno inside Kaguya's head/brain. Wouldn't it cause her to instantly lose her thoughts and fall to some coma? While I can believe that she get's back to her normal self after the sword or Kunai is removed. But until then, she can't think or move, nor can her regeneration just push out the sword. Wouldn't that be a defeat? Or can she escape from that too? this is just my own honest opinion, though.

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    • If kayuga can’t be killed then why was she so afraid of the other ootsutsuki that were chasing her? I mean even after consuming the chakra fruit she was still terrified and building a literal army.

      Can it be that she can be killed I mean her clan member Momoshiki was killed, maybe naruto and co. Just didn’t know how so sealing was the best option.

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    • Otsutsuki clan members obviously have a lot of different ways to deal with other powerful entities. Just last episode Toneri was apparently petrified for 10000 years. They are not mere ninjas, they are alien gods. They are able to handle things differently.

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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: When did this happen?

      Naruto cuts off her arm, at which point it becomes useless. She regenerates it though.

      BlazeRelease wrote:

      Can't she also do some superior Izanagi? I mean she has the Rinne Sharingan.

      Doubtful. Or at least, i doubt she can do that without sacrificing her eyesight.


      BlazeRelease wrote: But here's a question I got curious from Wolverine. As an immortal, one can regenerate or survive any blows to the body. But what about the brain?

      Judging by Sasori, a human being in the Narutoverse can survive without a head. So i think Kaguya could too.

      Ninjachris wrote: If kayuga can’t be killed then why was she so afraid of the other ootsutsuki that were chasing her? I mean even after consuming the chakra fruit she was still terrified and building a literal army.

      There may be hundreds of other fruit-powered Otsutsuki out there.

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    • Vladosaurus wrote: Otsutsuki clan members obviously have a lot of different ways to deal with other powerful entities. Just last episode Toneri was apparently petrified for 10000 years. They are not mere ninjas, they are alien gods. They are able to handle things differently.

      You’re actually supporting my point of view if they obviously have a lot ways for dealing with powerful entities that we are unaware of why would killing such entity be far fetched. And didn’t urashiki tell toneri he wasn’t authorized to kill clan members.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Namikazenaruto9 wrote: When did this happen?

      Naruto cuts off her arm, at which point it becomes useless. She regenerates it though.

      Didn't the out of control thing happen after Naruto use the Tail beast Rasenshuriken? As far as I know nothing special happened when Naruto cuts Kaguya's hand and separates Black Zetsu from her.
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    • Namikazenaruto9 wrote: Didn't the out of control thing happen after Naruto use the Tail beast Rasenshuriken? As far as I know nothing special happened when Naruto cuts Kaguya's hand and separates Black Zetsu from her.

      That's not what i meant. Even with his head cut off, Hidan could still use his own body. When Kaguya's arm was cut off, she couldn't control it.

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    • Thekillman wrote:

      Doubtful. Or at least, i doubt she can do that without sacrificing her eyesight.

      Yeah, I can bet she won't. Since we also know the Sage doing something beyond Izangagi with making the tailed beasts.

      Thekillman wrote: Judging by Sasori, a human being in the Narutoverse can survive without a head. So i think Kaguya could too.

      Yeah, but Sasori made his body like that. I mean there are also a couple of people who can survive that, namely Suigestu and the Edo shinobis. Considering both of the former just liquifies his body with physical attacks and the latter doesn't exactly work on flesh.

      Sasori kind of made his body like that, how, I don't even know. But his heart operated as his brain, or rather his chakra operated as a ghost possesion the body of the puppet he uses?

      Still, Sasori didn't have a brain to start with, but Kaguya very does. And if a sword is in between her head, I think she won't be able to think or even move afterwards, until the said sword is removed by some outer force. Plus, a sword in between her head, also means a sword in between her Rinne Sharingan(which would be a bonus) I don't know if it can work or not, though....

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    • Sasuke can't teleport an object into another object with Amenotejikera (assuming that's what you're refering to by Ameno), he can only teleport himself up to a certain distance, at which point he needs to swap places with another object or person to be able to extend his range, plus this is a versus battle between Kaguya and Naruto, not her and Sasuke (alone or in addition to Naruto), so it's wasted effort to debate about abilities of anyone else other than those two in terms of how they would affect one or the other (except to drive a point home, like if something proves that she's not immortal, then it doesn't count under the aforementioned exclusion rule of thumb). Considering that we're pitting Kaguya against Naruto at their strongest, I'd give Naruto a 40% chance at winning (a sixty-forty split for Kaguya), considering that there are some questions left unanswered after the war ("How far do the power and abilities of the Rinne-Sharingan extend beyond the already-known and if they even do", exempli gatia) and that he's gotten stronger after the war (to the point that he and Sasuke defeated and amplified Momoshiki, that is Momoshiki after he'd consumed Kinshiki, while, in contrast, those two took the same effort to defeat a comparatively weak opponent, at least weak enough in comparison for her to fear them before Momoshiki consumed Kinshiki, if it's even the case that she was fearing them in particular, though it's more likely that she was fearing the clan in general). Two ways he could win are to either form a Rasengan that's on par with his and Boruto's Father-son Rasengan or to make a Rasenshuriken or Rasenshuriken barrage that's equally as powerful, if not exceeding in power (Tailed beast variants that shattered her Ten-Tails form in the war may or may not be as effective in the shattering department, considering that, in her prime, the Ten-Tails hadn't been split apart by Hagoromo yet, another unanswered question from the war).

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    • Which Kaguya are we talking about? Are we talking about Kaguya from the War Arc or Kaguya in her prime (right after eating the Chakra Fruit). Because Kaguya right after eating the Chakra Fruit literally had ALL the Chakra on Earth and a complete Ten Tails. If so, she wins.

      If we're talking about Kaguya in the War Arc, I still think she's more powerful and would win. The thing is that power doesn't really mean anything in this fight anyway due to the fact Kaguya can't be sealed without both the Yin and Yang Seals. So, Kaguya wins both times.

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    • Oh dear, this battle thread is still going on?

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    • How to deal with low tier immortals in naruto: Step 1: Activate Mangekyou Step 2: Use Amaterasu. Step 3: Watch ,-,

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: How to deal with low tier immortals in naruto: Step 1: Activate Mangekyou Step 2: Use Amaterasu. Step 3: Watch ,-,

      Amaterasu didn`t work on Kaguya.

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    • Yus ik...Kaguya isn't low tier ;_;

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    • Vladosaurus wrote:

      Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: How to deal with low tier immortals in naruto: Step 1: Activate Mangekyou Step 2: Use Amaterasu. Step 3: Watch ,-,

      Amaterasu didn`t work on Kaguya.

      Why not just blow her up until she is the size of a minuscule cell at the size of atomic particle level?

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    • JohnCenaNation wrote:

      Vladosaurus wrote:

      Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: How to deal with low tier immortals in naruto: Step 1: Activate Mangekyou Step 2: Use Amaterasu. Step 3: Watch ,-,

      Amaterasu didn`t work on Kaguya.

      Why not just blow her up until she is the size of a minuscule cell at the size of atomic particle level?

      And how will anybody in the Narutoverse (except for MAYBE some very late villains in Boruto) manage to accomplish that?

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    • Use a ray gun ,-,

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Use a ray gun ,-,

      Dude, no, just no. Unless you think Jean-Luc Picard can and will travel into their universe and exact dimension they're fighting in and have impeccable timing at that, it's not an option. Amaterasu amplified by Fuuton might do the tric, but then again, it might not.

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    • Elsandosgrande wrote:

      Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Use a ray gun ,-,

      Dude, no, just no. Unless you think Jean-Luc Picard can and will travel into their universe and exact dimension they're fighting in and have impeccable timing at that, it's not an option. Amaterasu amplified by Fuuton might do the tric, but then again, it might not.

      Amaterasu amplified by Fuuton did nothing to Juubito. How will it do anything to Kaguya?

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    • Ah, Katatsuke already created the light saber in boruto, there is a possibility a ray gun will be created so Kaguya will have to wait around and maybe help Boruto with his Training ,-, . There is a Duo who can accomplish this, we'll use Minato and Itachi (or sasuke.or ohnoki)Minato uses reaper then Itachi can amaterasu her head and YAYY it'll burn to dust '-'That sounded too eeeasy ;_;

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Ah, Katatsuke already created the light saber in boruto, there is a possibility a ray gun will be created so Kaguya will have to wait around and maybe help Boruto with his Training ,-, . There is a Duo who can accomplish this, we'll use Minato and Itachi (or sasuke.or ohnoki)Minato uses reaper then Itachi can amaterasu her head and YAYY it'll burn to dust '-'That sounded too eeeasy ;_;

      Minato, Itachi, and Ohnoki would be blitzed and destroyed. Amaterasu is USELESS against Kaguya. She shrugged it off like it was nothing. Reaper Death Seal probably won't even work on Kaguya since she's a literal Goddess and Minato would actually have to have physical contact with her to actually try. Kaguya wouldn't allow Minato to ever touch her.

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    • It's Not Johnny wrote:

      Elsandosgrande wrote:

      Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Use a ray gun ,-,

      Dude, no, just no. Unless you think Jean-Luc Picard can and will travel into their universe and exact dimension they're fighting in and have impeccable timing at that, it's not an option. Amaterasu amplified by Fuuton might do the tric, but then again, it might not.

      Amaterasu amplified by Fuuton did nothing to Juubito. How will it do anything to Kaguya?

      My bad, I forgot it was already used. Moving on, I wonder if Madara's Light fang could do any damage if amplified somehow. Well, his technique is not available to Naruto anyway, so let's move on now (though I know someone will say that it won't do anything, again, regardless). EDIT: I just realized I had a typo in my previous comment. Great.

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    • It's Not Johnny wrote:

      Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Ah, Katatsuke already created the light saber in boruto, there is a possibility a ray gun will be created so Kaguya will have to wait around and maybe help Boruto with his Training ,-, . There is a Duo who can accomplish this, we'll use Minato and Itachi (or sasuke.or ohnoki)Minato uses reaper then Itachi can amaterasu her head and YAYY it'll burn to dust '-'That sounded too eeeasy ;_;

      Minato, Itachi, and Ohnoki would be blitzed and destroyed. Amaterasu is USELESS against Kaguya. She shrugged it off like it was nothing. Reaper Death Seal probably won't even work on Kaguya since she's a literal Goddess and Minato would actually have to have physical contact with her to actually try. Kaguya wouldn't allow Minato to ever touch her.

      Minato, Itachi and Ohnoki would be blitz and destroyed..........say no more (dies in laughter) ;_; do know that she isnt an actual goddess, probably a goddess of the normal humans in that verse but nah, she fell prey to the sexy jutsu but the god of death himself wont works ?_? interesting ;-;

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    • I am rooting for Naruto on this one.

      for starters, 4th War Naruto in Asura Mode competed against Sasuke with power of 8 1/2 Biju. by the way the manga was centered Naruto and Sasuke were always on equal footing. one would be stronger than other at point, but the other would soon catch up. when they recieved power from Hagoromo they had truly become equal. So when Sasuke absorbed Chakra from all the Biju (and not just have tiny bits of their chakra like Naruto did) he became Hagoromo level. Naruto matched that by using SM and Asura Mode (the latter was just an eye candy to me and nothing more as Naruto can simply create new arms or have his tails act as arms in BM).

      now onto people saying that Hagoromo needed Hamura to defeat Kaguya (they had to probably weaken her in order to have her sealed) than Naruto by action of matching upto Sasuke who was said to be Hagormo level at that point means Naruto wasnt ready. WRONG.

      everyone seems to conviniently miss out that the Hagormo had not become TTJ at that point. he was base Hagoromo. Hagoromo clearly gained greater power after becoming the TTJ. he could more or less be considered on par with Kaguya, because the only advantage Kaguya had on him was the body of the Juubi. he had essentially extracted the chunk (probably 90+% or so of her chakra, which later became the Biju).

      the Sasuke that matched Hagormo level was TTJ Hagoromo. in that means Naruto's Asura Mode in 4th War was on par with it.

      flash forward and Naruto gains the whole Kyubi, essentially close to doubling his own power and multiplying it by two if he went Asura Mode in that form. he in a sense has power greater than Kaguya.

      just an example, Toneri who activated Tenseigan CHakra Mode and is apparantely said to be on par with Hamura was defeated by KCM1 + SM Naruto (it was normal SM as Naruto had the orange pigmentation around his eyes which is not present in SPSM). he had no need to go KCM2 or BM or BSM or SPSM. he even had Kurama fight on his own with the statue.

      ON the immortality note - where was it ever mentioned that she could not die. she had eternal youth apparently and also regeneration, but it didnt mean she cannot die. Momoshiki did die too. he was being apparently stronger than Kaguya and had consumed his own share of Chakra Fruits.


      EXTRA ADDITION:

      the Otsutsuki all have powers, possibly CHakra, before they consume the fruit of the God Trees. Kaguya was a prime example and so far Kinshiki and Urashiki have not shown to have consumed the fruit. in that sense, Hagoromo and Hamura being Otsutsuki descendent will be born with that power too.

      they were. the two were the first apparently (on Earth or whatever the world is called) to be borm with Chakra.

      to put in perspective, Kaguya didnt split her chakra to give it to her sons like Hagormo did by spreading a part of his CHakra with the world. the two fought Kaguya with their own Chakra, which could be considered to have grown to half the level of TTJ Kaguya. it is after that Hagoromo sealed the Jubi Chakra in him, which in sense would make his Chakra on par or greater than Kaguya.

      Kaguya probably meant that the Chakra she wanted from her children back as a reverse way of the Otsutsuki Clan's philosophy, where powers are passed down to the children, like with Momoshiki taking Kinshiki's chakra. she just was paranoid and wanted all the chakra in the world for herself.

      likewise, Indra and Asura were also certainly born with their own Chakra. that would be 1/4 of Kaguya. but by that time Hagormo was TTJ so his chakra capacity had grown on level of Kaguya or greater. even if he passed on a tiny bit of his chakra to the world (which was only meant to connect them spiritually and not big scale fights later down the road) his children at least have half the chakra of Kaguya. it is probably why she was still afraid of those two's incarnations.

      SO Naruto by being an incarnation of Asura and having the power awakened already has almost half of Kaguya's chakra. add in his own chakra and it goes a scale higher. follow it with powers Hagormo gave them (since Hagoromo was no longer TTJ he would be back to half of Kaguya's chakra) it will rise by a quarter or so. add in full Kurama who is closest in power to Jubi (half of kurama easily countered five-six of the biju TBB alone) and there goes another meteorical rise. Naruto has aged and his Chakra has clearly grown, so plus more. Add in Senjutsu to the mix and Naruto actually has a great chance here

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      • eats dango* '-'
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    • If Hagoromo somehow comes back, and gives Naruto the Rinnegan and the yin and yang marks then yes he can win with Six Paths: Chibaku Tensei. Otherwise no, he can never win. She is THE strongest thing in the narutoverse and it takes that tech alone to beat her.

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    • I dont think he can get the rinnegan, naruto must possess aleast a base sharingan first, no? '-'

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    • FlatZone wrote: If Hagoromo somehow comes back, and gives Naruto the Rinnegan and the yin and yang marks then yes he can win with Six Paths: Chibaku Tensei. Otherwise no, he can never win. She is THE strongest thing in the narutoverse and it takes that tech alone to beat her.

      I think Momoshiki might be stronger than her. At least with Kinshiki absorbed he is stronger.

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    • Can't believe I'm saying this but Naruto wins because he's a complete genius compared to Kaguya who on her own is the definition of a glass canon i.e. her hax and raw power are broken but she's completely inept at strategy or even the basics of Shinobi fighting. Only problem Naruto has is sealing her but I'm sure he'll come up with a way to get around that.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: Can't believe I'm saying this but Naruto wins because he's a complete genius compared to Kaguya who on her own is the definition of a glass canon i.e. her hax and raw power are broken but she's completely inept at strategy or even the basics of Shinobi fighting. Only problem Naruto has is sealing her but I'm sure he'll come up with a way to get around that.

      He doesn't. That's the thing, how clever or powerful a person can be, Kaguya will still be immortal. And from what the series showed, Immortal shinobi's have a better chance of winning fights against opponents of thier clever of power or closer.

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    • I'd say Momo with Kinshiki absorbed stands a better chance, but he still loses.. he was beaten with a fucking giant Rasengan.. the only thing that can beat Kaguya is the SP:CB.

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    • BlazeRelease wrote:

      Starscream1998 wrote: Can't believe I'm saying this but Naruto wins because he's a complete genius compared to Kaguya who on her own is the definition of a glass canon i.e. her hax and raw power are broken but she's completely inept at strategy or even the basics of Shinobi fighting. Only problem Naruto has is sealing her but I'm sure he'll come up with a way to get around that.

      He doesn't. That's the thing, how clever or powerful a person can be, Kaguya will still be immortal. And from what the series showed, Immortal shinobi's have a better chance of winning fights against opponents of thier clever of power or closer.

      Oh I see your point *cough* Kakazu *cough* Hidan *cough* Juubidara *cough* Orochimaru *cough* Every character who has displayed or boasted some form of immortality only to be defeated with about as much difficulty as regular characters. Ironic that Kakazu and Hidan also got duped by a shadow clone like Kaguya, guess immortals struggle with those. No sorry, strategy beats immortality every single time plus you can't argue Kaguya isn't as dumb as bricks without Black Zetsu strapped to her arm. Like I said she's a glass canon with incredible power but hardly any brains to properly utilise it. Adult Naruto is not only stronger than he was when he first fought her but so much smarter and while fatigued he alongside Sasuke beat Momoshiki (someone Kaguya amassed an army of White Zetsu to beat) so I can't in good conscience say kaguya wins or at the very least has this great edge just because of her regen.

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    • I would not say he is stronger by much at all, but is indeed more skilled than when he fought her. He also has better healing abilities now thanks to the Hashirama arm. BUT it still equates to jack shit against her. It took the entirety of team 7 plus Obito's help to actually beat her. Black Zetsu only warned her about things she didn't know about, the rest was her own doing. She has been gone for so long that of course she needed Black Zetsu to loop her into it all. Consider the fact she already fought Naruto and the others before and it becomes clear she will NOT need Black Zetsu to win. She is something entirely above the rest in the Narutoverse as of yet.. MomoKinshiki was strong sure.. but he was still beat by a giant rasengan once his rinnegan ability was damaged.. so yeah....

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    • Naruto cannot defeat kaguya.She is immortal because of her healing factor and her immense amount of chakra.She has the rinnegan to absorb anything Naruto throws at her,Naruto is still vulnerable to all killing Ash bones.But the most important factor is the infinite tsukuyomi,Naruto will get one shotted by the infinite tsukuyomi.Only Sasuke's rinegan can withstand that technique.She can also use the expansive truth seeking orbs to destroy the planet\continent.Naruto does have impressive reaction feats but if he is not in spsm mode then he can bfr'd into any other dimesion. Naruto gives a good fight and will have the edge in the fight becoz of kaguya's zero skill\intelligence but if he gets hit by any of the above techniques then he's done for. Naruto requires the six path chikbaku tensei to seal kaguya,which he cannot perform because he does not have a rinnegan or the yin seal.

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    • If Kaguya had the rinnegan abilities why didn't she think Shinra Tensei would've come in handy moments before she was sealed?

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    • She does not have the Rinnegans abilities. She does have the Sharingan abilities in her Rinne Sharingan.

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    • FlatZone wrote: She does not have the Rinnegans abilities. She does have the Sharingan abilities in her Rinne Sharingan.

      She has no Sharingan nor Rinnegan abilities.

      RinneSharingan is a completely different doujutsu. it is parent jutsu of Rinnegan and Sharingan, but possess nothing of their abilities.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:

      It's Not Johnny wrote:

      Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Ah, Katatsuke already created the light saber in boruto, there is a possibility a ray gun will be created so Kaguya will have to wait around and maybe help Boruto with his Training ,-, . There is a Duo who can accomplish this, we'll use Minato and Itachi (or sasuke.or ohnoki)Minato uses reaper then Itachi can amaterasu her head and YAYY it'll burn to dust '-'That sounded too eeeasy ;_;

      Minato, Itachi, and Ohnoki would be blitzed and destroyed. Amaterasu is USELESS against Kaguya. She shrugged it off like it was nothing. Reaper Death Seal probably won't even work on Kaguya since she's a literal Goddess and Minato would actually have to have physical contact with her to actually try. Kaguya wouldn't allow Minato to ever touch her.

      Minato, Itachi and Ohnoki would be blitz and destroyed..........say no more (dies in laughter) ;_; do know that she isnt an actual goddess, probably a goddess of the normal humans in that verse but nah, she fell prey to the sexy jutsu but the god of death himself wont works ?_? interesting ;-;

      Pretty sure that she's the princess of the Ootsutsuki or something. I have no idea of Reaper Death Seal would work on her. Remember that you have to actually be strong enough to seal somebody. Hiruzen wasn't able to take Orochimaru's whole soul. Minato had to seal half of the Nine Tails into himself and half of the Nine Tails into Naruto because the Nine Tails' power was too great. And I don't see how Kaguya couldn't blitz Itachi, Minato, and Ohnoki. Itachi was KCM level. Minato was relative to BM Naruto, maybe slightly stronger or slightly weaker. Ohnoki has no speed feats and was toyed with by Madara, so what will he accomplish against Kaguya?

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    • It's Not Johnny wrote:

      Itachi was KCM level.

      itachi is not KCM level.

      if you are refering to brief clash between Itachi and KCM1 Naruto, than please remember that it was Itachi who was attacking and Naruto was just blcoking or defending from his attack. Naruto wasnt blitzing Itachi with his speed nor was he using any Rasengan or Rasenshuriken attacks. Naruto was more focused on getting answers from Itachi about Sasuke than worry about the fight at hand.

      means, Naruto was not giving his all at all, which means Itachi was not matching him and so is not KCM1 level.

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    • Nashikeine wrote:

      It's Not Johnny wrote:

      Itachi was KCM level.

      itachi is not KCM level.

      if you are refering to brief clash between Itachi and KCM1 Naruto, than please remember that it was Itachi who was attacking and Naruto was just blcoking or defending from his attack. Naruto wasnt blitzing Itachi with his speed nor was he using any Rasengan or Rasenshuriken attacks. Naruto was more focused on getting answers from Itachi about Sasuke than worry about the fight at hand.

      means, Naruto was not giving his all at all, which means Itachi was not matching him and so is not KCM1 level.

      You're taking me a little too literally. It's debatable as to whether if Itachi was as strong as KCM Naruto or not. The point is that even if he was, it's a complete mismatch against Kaguya.

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    • It's Not Johnny wrote:

      You're taking me a little too literally. It's debatable as to whether if Itachi was as strong as KCM Naruto or not. The point is that even if he was, it's a complete mismatch against Kaguya.

      i probably am.

      but it is just that every time i hear Itachi hyype which is badly unfounded i kind of really feel the need to correct it.

      on that note this is not where we should discuss about Itachi's level, it is more suited to discussion thread about Itachi.

      let's get on topic.

      And as i have posted above, i dont know if you have read or not, but i think Naruto has a fair chance on this one.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: If Kaguya had the rinnegan abilities why didn't she think Shinra Tensei would've come in handy moments before she was sealed?

      My bad kaguya does not have the rinnegan but she has complete chakra\ninjutsu absorption,I am not sure that it is because of her rinne sharingan or her inherent ability. Still kaguya can abosrb anything Naruto throws at her. She can easily teleport him to another dimension via her rinne sharingan as she just has to be near to Naruto for her teleportation to work,and only Sasuke with his rinnegan or obito can jump dimesions. She can use all killing Ash bones to kill naruto,it's a one shot kill technique,she can use that to take out naruto's clones also. She has the expansive truth seeking orbs to destroy the entire planet . Kaguya can use infinite tsukuyomi to also one shot Naruto as he cannot repel it or block it.

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    • Nashikeine wrote:

      It's Not Johnny wrote:

      You're taking me a little too literally. It's debatable as to whether if Itachi was as strong as KCM Naruto or not. The point is that even if he was, it's a complete mismatch against Kaguya.

      i probably am.

      but it is just that every time i hear Itachi hyype which is badly unfounded i kind of really feel the need to correct it.

      on that note this is not where we should discuss about Itachi's level, it is more suited to discussion thread about Itachi.

      let's get on topic.

      And as i have posted above, i dont know if you have read or not, but i think Naruto has a fair chance on this one.

      I'll respond to you in a day or so. Don't have time right now.

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    • Soloking itachi15 wrote: My bad kaguya does not have the rinnegan but she has complete chakra\ninjutsu absorption,I am not sure that it is because of her rinne sharingan or her inherent ability.

      Could be inherent or one of the abilities of RinneSharingan... it was never specified i think.

      Soloking itachi15 wrote: Still kaguya can abosrb anything Naruto throws at her.

      she could not absorb the SUper Tailed Beast Rasenshuriken.

      it wasnt even the strongest jutsu in Naruto's arsenal from back then

      Soloking itachi15 wrote:

      She can easily teleport him to another dimension via her rinne sharingan as she just has to be near to Naruto for her teleportation to work,and only Sasuke with his rinnegan or obito can jump dimesions.

      the OP made it a battle in singe dimesnsion as far i see it.

      and even if she teleports him to another dimension, how is it going to defeat Naruto. he cannot be able to return to where Kaguya is, but he is far from defeated. Kaguya will have to jump to that dimension to fight him.

      also using the dimension jump actually costs a lot of chakra so she will actually be making herself weaker here.

      in the first place it was made to seperate Sasuke and Naruto so Kaguya could deal with them individually so she didnt have the threat of Chibaku Tensei seal on her head.

      Soloking itachi15 wrote:

      She can use all killing Ash bones to kill naruto,it's a one shot kill technique,she can use that to take out naruto's clones also.

      Naruto showed that he avoided the one shot kill many a times, by having his clones take the hit.

      naruto can make 1000+ clones and to deal with all them Kaguya will have to spam 1000+ ash bones as one was only able to kill one person.

      how many ash bones is Kaguya going to spam? can she even do that? because if she could she would have used it against Naruto when he attacked her with all the clones.


      Soloking itachi15 wrote:

      She has the expansive truth seeking orbs to destroy the entire planet .

      it takes time to prepare and which leaves her completely wide open. and we have no idea what it is capable of.

      Destroying entire planet? probably. it was stated that she apparently was going to use it to create a new dimension or so.

      on other point, Naruto in last with KCM1+SM survived an attack that cut the moon in half, so his full powered durability and at the peak of his age should be real high.

      Soloking itachi15 wrote:

      Kaguya can use infinite tsukuyomi to also one shot Naruto as he cannot repel it or block it.

      never thought about that one. it can be insta-kill

      but Kaguya would need the moon to use the jutsu, and none of her dimension have a moon.

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    • No, she does not need the moon for I.T. She used the Byakugan's range power for I.T. before, as Hagoromo said himself. Naruto literally can't beat her.. he needs SP:CB and he needs Sasuke, and the yin and yang marks for that.

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    • FlatZone wrote: No, she does not need the moon for I.T. She used the Byakugan's range power for I.T. before, as Hagoromo said himself. Naruto literally can't beat her.. he needs SP:CB and he needs Sasuke, and the yin and yang marks for that.

      where was it said? Manga? Anime filler? reference please

      the Infinite Tsukuyomi is not used in that manner as far as even the wiki is concerned

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    • Chapter 671, Page 9. There was no moon large enough at the time she used the technique so she used her Byakugan. The anime decided to make shit up and have her use another random dimensions moon. Manga beats the anime in the end when it comes to conflicting things.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Chapter 671, Page 9. There was no moon large enough at the time she used the technique so she used her Byakugan. The anime decided to make shit up and have her use another random dimensions moon. Manga beats the anime in the end when it comes to conflicting things.

      yep. manga triumps all. i forgot that detail since it was only a panel or two worth.

      it is as you say.

      this just makes it impossible for Naruto to win.

      ....

      on that note, why didnt she use IT on Naruto when she sepearated him from Sasuke. that would end all her problems. as the only known counter is another Rinnegan.

      on that note, she could have used in Hamura as he too did not have a Rinnegan, but she didnt.

      ...

      i actually speculate that it is not just Rinnegan alone, but SIx Paths Chakra that can counter IT too. just my speculation. nothing concrete there.

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    • Plot, she didn't because of plot man lol

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    • @Nashikeine I am not sure about this but in the anime ,in kaguya's dimesion where she was going to destroy it using expensive truth seeking orbs ,it was shown that there were on some sort of a planet with a moon which could be seen in one the scenes,so theoretically she use that moon for her infinite tsukyoumi. But as said ,she doesn't require a moon to launch infinite tsukyoumi so Naruto cannot counter it.The reason she didn't use infinite tsukyoumi on Naruto after Sasuke was trapped in another dimension could be because it requires a lot of Chakra,or kaguya felt she could defeat them without using it again,or Naruto plot armour saved him from getting killed. Even though Naruto survived a technique which cut the moon in half ,but didn't outright destroy the moon.the moon is very small compared to a planet if kaguya could destroy a planet then even with naruto's durability he cannot survive a planet bursting attack. kaguya doesn't need all killing Ash bones to attack his clones,I just gave an example how she could is it.The clones are weaker than the original and kaguya fought against them without a problem ,I meant its one hit kill ,so if it hits Naruto then he gone for good. Naruto's most powerful attack which he used against Sasuke can be absorbed by kaguya or she can outright dodge it by teleportation.Naruto literally used all the remaining senjutsu of the entire 5 nations for that attack.If kaguya absorbs it or teleports than Naruto cannot do it again. When Naruto used super tailed beast rasenshuriken on kaguya it reacted to the tailed beast inside her and caused to destabilize and go into a non proper ten tails state.This will only work when Naruto uses super tailed beast rasenshuriken and not any other attack,so naruto's strongest attack will not cause her to go in the same state .

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    • @Flat

      I know it's a plot armour.

      but it also makes fun to come up with theories to justify said plot armour. and when we can connect dots with another it just makes it that much more fun and helps us dive away from saying its plot armour all the time.

      I mean, in part 1 Hiruzen could have used so many means to seal or release Edo Tensei Hashirama and Tobirama, but he goes on using the suicidal way of all. that is plot too you know.

      and i already said, that just how i look at the situation. i so did not disagree that Naruto wouldnt be done in. i did confirm IT was insta-kill


      @Soloking

      I already agreed on Naruto being unable to counter IT.

      about IT not being used on Naruto back then when he was seperated from Sasuke can only be plot armour (or my ridiculous idea that Six Paths Power can counter it).

      see even if it required large amounts of Chakra, if Kaguya used IT back then she would not only capture Naruto, but Kakashi, Sakura and Obito in it too. and as far as Kaguya was concerned there was no way Sasuke could return back from the dimension he had send him too. she could simply wait after casting IT and then absorb Chakra from the already sealed ones and assimilate the chakra from Naruto, YIn Kyubi, Kakashi, Sakura and Obito and then just go to battle and kill Sasuke. there would be nothing for her to worry then.

      the Massive Truth Seeking Orb was used to create a new dimension, not destroy the world.

      17 year old Naruto was able to fool and evade the Ash Bones, so the prime Naruto cant. yeah. if it hits its over, but Naruto has shown he can not be hit by them.

      Naruto's strongest jutsu is mixed with Kurama's chakra. it will react to the chakra within Kaguya too.

      used Senjutsu of all 5 nations? that is a bit over.

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    • When Naruto used the super tailed beast rasenshuriken and attacked her it reacted to the tailed beast inside her and forced her to go into a non stable bijju mode,I don't think the same effect will be done by naruto's strongest attack containing kurama chakra rasenshuriken.Omly yin kurama is present inside kaguya,while complete other tailed beast we're there(yin-yang part).It's complete speculation to say that kurama mixed chakra may do the same, besides it wasn't much of a danger to kaguya ,she only required additional chakra to come back to normal state. "Senjutsu of all 5 nation",yeah my bad lol.I misinterpreted kurama when he said 'he collected bit too much,and said this was everything he could collect above the ground'.

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    • Soloking itachi15 wrote: My bad kaguya does not have the rinnegan but she has complete chakra\ninjutsu absorption,I am not sure that it is because of her rinne sharingan or her inherent ability. Still kaguya can abosrb anything Naruto throws at her. She can easily teleport him to another dimension via her rinne sharingan as she just has to be near to Naruto for her teleportation to work,and only Sasuke with his rinnegan or obito can jump dimesions. She can use all killing Ash bones to kill naruto,it's a one shot kill technique,she can use that to take out naruto's clones also. She has the expansive truth seeking orbs to destroy the entire planet . Kaguya can use infinite tsukuyomi to also one shot Naruto as he cannot repel it or block it.

      Kaguya cannot absorb Sage jutsu which Naruto is extremely proficient in and while Naruto would be screwed if he got trapped in a dimension of hers his speed as shown in their battle is comparable to hers which coupled with his sensory abilities means Kaguya couldn't sneak attack him the same way she did Sasuke. The ash bones are an instant kill move but using shadow clones and his KCM enchanced speed Naruto would be able to effectively avoid this especially given his speed and overall power is much greater as an adult than the last time he fought her. The expansive TSB requires an enormous amount of Chakra, so much so that Kaguya had to tap into the reserves of Chakra from the victims of the Infinite Tsukiyomi which she doesn't have in this hypothetical fight. Launching the jutsu would leave a drain on her Chakra and Naruto would likely capitalise on that to disable her and by extension the expanding TSB. If Kaguya attempted Infinite Tsukiyomi Naruto would immediately intervene, he possesses the power of flight thanks to his six paths mode and combined with his Kurama avatar would not create an opening for her to use it. Also, keep in mind that adult Naruto has a whole other half of Bjuu now which means in tandem with his ability of flight the Kurama Avatar would not allow Kaguya to get away from the battle to cast it. Unlike Madara she can't use planetary devastation as a distraction.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote: He doesn't. That's the thing, how clever or powerful a person can be, Kaguya will still be immortal. And from what the series showed, Immortal shinobi's have a better chance of winning fights against opponents of thier clever of power or closer.

      Oh I see your point *cough* Kakazu *cough* Hidan *cough* Juubidara *cough* Orochimaru *cough* Every character who has displayed or boasted some form of immortality only to be defeated with about as much difficulty as regular characters. Ironic that Kakazu and Hidan also got duped by a shadow clone like Kaguya, guess immortals struggle with those. No sorry, strategy beats immortality every single time plus you can't argue Kaguya isn't as dumb as bricks without Black Zetsu strapped to her arm. </div> Sigh, I don't remember any of them having the chakra of the freaking ten tails in them. Like seriously, they all had some weakness to exploit, that is, they weren't as freaking immortal as Kaguya was. Hidan, can't regenerate, as much we seen. Kazuku has a limit on his lives, Oro was defeated by Genjutsu. Juubidara was defeated by Talk no jutsu's help, basically meaning that Obito allowed him to be defeated.

      Now, Kaguya's head can't easily be cut off like Hidan's, but even if she was, she can regenerate the whole half while still in the air. She doesn't have a limit on lives like Kazuku, she can't be defeated by genjutsu, she can't be pursueded to give up. So, yeah, nothing won't work. As her children, The Sage, who observed the whole shinobi world for years and years, still couldn't figure out another weakness over her other than the seal.

      This is just my own opinion.

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    • Kaguya's regen is insane don't get me wrong, but having insane regen is not immortality. Hypothetically if an opponent was to vaporise Kaguya completely she could not regenerate like DBZ/DBS characters e.g. Buu or Future Zamasu. Point is her 'immortality' in no way gives her the win here otherwise Six Paths Madara who also claimed to be 'immortal' after absorbing the God tree shouldn't have been cucked by Naruto and Sasuke by that logic. It's regen hax, not immortality.

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    • Well interestingly, Kaguya is the more powerful fighter in this debate, like literally the most powerful in the series. If anyone is gonna vaporise anyone, it's gonna be Kaguya, Naruto can't pack that much power, especially with how quick she is with time space jutsu.

      Six paths Madara while being ridiculed by Sasuke and Naruto, he was still not dying. That was the point, plus, Kaguya is even more powerful than him.

      Now, I can side with the fact that Kaguya could potentially be vaporised, but no power in the series showed a feat powerful enough to do that to her. If there was, then she could have been handled by that. I personally believe she can be done by a kunai being placed between her brain, causing her to mentally be done with. And she would not be able to regenerate until the kunai is removed from her brain, thus she'll be done by that. But anyways, she just takes over everything Naruto had an advantage against othere, Regeneration, Stamina, power and durability.

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    • Starscream1998 wrote:

      Soloking itachi15 wrote: My bad kaguya does not have the rinnegan but she has complete chakra\ninjutsu absorption,I am not sure that it is because of her rinne sharingan or her inherent ability. Still kaguya can abosrb anything Naruto throws at her. She can easily teleport him to another dimension via her rinne sharingan as she just has to be near to Naruto for her teleportation to work,and only Sasuke with his rinnegan or obito can jump dimesions. She can use all killing Ash bones to kill naruto,it's a one shot kill technique,she can use that to take out naruto's clones also. She has the expansive truth seeking orbs to destroy the entire planet . Kaguya can use infinite tsukuyomi to also one shot Naruto as he cannot repel it or block it.

      Kaguya cannot absorb Sage jutsu which Naruto is extremely proficient in and while Naruto would be screwed if he got trapped in a dimension of hers his speed as shown in their battle is comparable to hers which coupled with his sensory abilities means Kaguya couldn't sneak attack him the same way she did Sasuke. The ash bones are an instant kill move but using shadow clones and his KCM enchanced speed Naruto would be able to effectively avoid this especially given his speed and overall power is much greater as an adult than the last time he fought her. The expansive TSB requires an enormous amount of Chakra, so much so that Kaguya had to tap into the reserves of Chakra from the victims of the Infinite Tsukiyomi which she doesn't have in this hypothetical fight. Launching the jutsu would leave a drain on her Chakra and Naruto would likely capitalise on that to disable her and by extension the expanding TSB. If Kaguya attempted Infinite Tsukiyomi Naruto would immediately intervene, he possesses the power of flight thanks to his six paths mode and combined with his Kurama avatar would not create an opening for her to use it. Also, keep in mind that adult Naruto has a whole other half of Bjuu now which means in tandem with his ability of flight the Kurama Avatar would not allow Kaguya to get away from the battle to cast it. Unlike Madara she can't use planetary devastation as a distraction.

      Wait a minute kaguya can't absorb sage jutsu ,what are you talking about ? Where was it said that kaguya cannot absorb sage jutsu. kaguya does have the rinnesharingan and being the tentails host,she also acquires sage of six path senjutsu by default as Madara once stated while fighting Naruto and Sasuke that he had both the rinnegan and SOSP senjutsu.By having both of them she can easily absorb sage jutsus and sage chakra also.She did get destabilized by super tailed beast rasenshuriken but that cannot defeat her.If kaguya attempted infinite tsukyoumi then Naruto will intervene ? ,she doesn't need a moon to do so,she can launch it normally and can oneshot Naruto with it.Naruto cannot escape the infinite tsukyoumi.Good point on the expansive tsb thing,she required additional chakra to do so,but how will Naruto disable her ? With her teleportation she can easily dodge Naruto.If she does complete the expansive tsb then he cannot tank a dimension erasing attack.The only thing Naruto has advantage over her is he is more intelligent\tactical then her.He cannot anything without the yin seal required for six path chikbaku tensei.

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    • Senjutsu and Taijutsu are the only things that worked on a Juubi Jinchuriki and Kaguya, this was made abundantly clear in their first scuffle with Juubito how did you miss it?

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    • @Nashikeine It's never stated Naruto or Sasuke became Hagoromo level. In fact, it makes no sense to me that they are. Remember that Hagoromo and Hamura together defeated Kaguya after months of fighting. SPSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke needed outside help to do it and could have lost in several instances. And yes, Sasuke had extra Tailed Beasts, but he didn't flat-out become the Jinchuriki. He just absorbed a lot of their power. It's made clear by the series by the Ten Tails that is a lot stronger than all the Tailed Beasts that go into making it. For example, we know that Naruto in Kurama Avatar could go head to head with 6 Tailed Beasts without much difficulty. Then, as soon as an incomplete form of the Ten Tails in its first form, it absolutely demolishes Naruto, Bee, Kakashi, and Guy at the same time. The only thing the Ten Tails had that the 6 Tailed Beasts were missing were 1 Tailed Beast and only portions of Chakra from the Nine and Eight Tails. One difference is that the Ten Tails is the agrigate of all Tailed Beasts, while the Bijuu themselves are separated. So, that's the only solution for the insane power gap. So, the Ten Tails >>> all nine Tailed Beasts. Hagoromo, even without the Ten Tails, was still so strong that he was able to fight against Kaguya for entire months. Together, he (before he became the Juubi Jinchuriki) and Hamura (before he gained the Tenseigan) were able to seal Kaguya. So, Hagoromo and Hamura are showing superior feats to Naruto (defeating Kaguya by themselves while Naruto and Sasuke needed help from Sakura, DMS kakashi, and DMS Obito) while in depowered forms (Hagoromo didn't have the Juubi and Hamura didn't have the Tenseigan). By feats alone, they are stronger than Naruto and Sasuke. They're also narratively stronger as Naruto and Sasuke only have half the power of Hagoromo. And I'm not even sure if it's half, actually. Remember that even after this ghostly Hagoromo (who was just a ghost and didn't even ahve the Ten Tails, so he was weaker than his prime self) gave Naruto and Sasuke his power, he STILL had the Rinnegan and SPSM, so it's possible he actually gave less than half his power to each of them. Remember that it was through his power that Naruto and Sasuke could seal Kaguya. So, Hagoromo is broken OP. I don't think Naruto and Sasuke are at this level, at least not yet...

      And even though Hagoromo and Hamura were depowered against Kaguya, she was actually still very strong. Remember that Hagoromo and Hamura were her direct sons, so they inherited her powers. Hagoromo was so strong that he broke logic and awakened the Rinnegan through emotional trauma as if it was a Sharingan. He also learned Sage Mode in an instant and had Six Paths Sage Mode (the original user of it). Hamura had no feats, but he should have been relative to Hagoromo as well. After months of fighting, they finally defeated Kaguya.

      Getting another half of the Kyuubi doesn't double his overall power. It powers up all of his forms that have to do with the Kyuubi.

      Naruto actually used BSM against Toneri. It wasn't KCM, because the other half of Kurama was still able to form a Kurama Avatar. If he was in KCM, that wouldn't be possible.

      When was it stated Toneri was on par with Hamura?

      Even if Momoshiki was stronger than Kaguya (I have my doubts about that), it doesn't mean he has better immortality. Kaguya survived 9 Tailed Beast Rasen-Shuriken to the face and came out with scratch marks over her body. The only reason she went unstable was because the Tailed Beasts inside her reacted to the Tailed Beast attacks.

      The part about Chakra and all is head canon, but didn't Kaguya state she shared her Chakra with Hagoromo and Hamura? It's never stated they had their own Chakra or anything.

      @Starscream1998 Kaguya is the incarnation of the Juubi, which is the incarnation of the Divine Tree. The Divine Tree was shown to absorb Sage Chakra in the fight against Juubito and in the Kaguya filler arc, it was absorbing the natural energy of the terrain. Kaguya can absorb Senjutsu. Senjutsu is just proficient against SPSM and Truthseeker Orbs. Doesn't mean it can't be absorbed.

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    • i am glad i saw this soon rather than late or it would be lost in all the posts...

      It's Not Johnny wrote: @Nashikeine It's never stated Naruto or Sasuke became Hagoromo level.

      Yin Kurama said so in 696 when Sasuke absorbs the chakra of all the biju.

      It's Not Johnny wrote: In fact, it makes no sense to me that they are. Remember that Hagoromo and Hamura together defeated Kaguya after months of fighting. SPSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke needed outside help to do it and could have lost in several instances.

      Yes. SPSM Naruto and Rinegan Naruto could have lost to Kaguya on multiple occasions. agreed.

      but i am talking about their power level when they fought each other, wherein they went beyong their powers. Enhanced Susanoo and Sage Asura Mode. neither was used against Kaguya

      It's Not Johnny wrote: And yes, Sasuke had extra Tailed Beasts, but he didn't flat-out become the Jinchuriki. He just absorbed a lot of their power.

      indeed he didnt become Jinchurki. he absorbed their power and that power according to Yin Kurama got him around Hagoromo level.


      It's Not Johnny wrote: It's made clear by the series by the Ten Tails that is a lot stronger than all the Tailed Beasts that go into making it.

      yes. it also has its body which is quite strong too.

      It's Not Johnny wrote: For example, we know that Naruto in Kurama Avatar could go head to head with 6 Tailed Beasts without much difficulty. Then, as soon as an incomplete form of the Ten Tails in its first form, it absolutely demolishes Naruto, Bee, Kakashi, and Guy at the same time. The only thing the Ten Tails had that the 6 Tailed Beasts were missing were 1 Tailed Beast and only portions of Chakra from the Nine and Eight Tails.

      SPSM>>>>>>>>>>BM

      in BM even with all help Naruto could not hurt the Juubi, but with SPSM and without even the cloak he literally killed Madara and cut the tree.

      the power up is enormous. he could easily stand up to Jubi and destroy in in SPSM

      It's Not Johnny wrote: One difference is that the Ten Tails is the agrigate of all Tailed Beasts, while the Bijuu themselves are separated. So, that's the only solution for the insane power gap. So, the Ten Tails >>> all nine Tailed Beasts.

      again. agreed.

      so is the power up from BM to SPSM. it is even beyong the Jubi power up.

      and then there is Asura Mode

      It's Not Johnny wrote: Hagoromo, even without the Ten Tails, was still so strong that he was able to fight against Kaguya for entire months. Together, he (before he became the Juubi Jinchuriki) and Hamura (before he gained the Tenseigan) were able to seal Kaguya. So, Hagoromo and Hamura are showing superior feats to Naruto (defeating Kaguya by themselves while Naruto and Sasuke needed help from Sakura, DMS kakashi, and DMS Obito) while in depowered forms (Hagoromo didn't have the Juubi and Hamura didn't have the Tenseigan).

      I also said that Hagoromo and Hamura are insanely powerful.

      as for Naruto and Sasuke. they were still getting used to their new powers. it was clear from their fight when they were gradually growing and being accustomed to their powers. by adulthood they have complete control over their powers.

      this is unlike Hagoromo and Hamura who trained for years with their powers.


      And just so you know, Naruto was trading blow for blow with Kaguya's Eighty Gods Vaccum attack in terms of power.

      It's Not Johnny wrote: By feats alone, they are stronger than Naruto and Sasuke.

      Indeed they are if you only take their battle into Kaguya into account.

      Sasuke and Naruto showed greater powers after their battle with Kaguya you know. in their own battle and against fused Momo, especially Naruto.

      It's Not Johnny wrote: They're also narratively stronger as Naruto and Sasuke only have half the power of Hagoromo. And I'm not even sure if it's half, actually. Remember that even after this ghostly Hagoromo (who was just a ghost and didn't even ahve the Ten Tails, so he was weaker than his prime self) gave Naruto and Sasuke his power, he STILL had the Rinnegan and SPSM, so it's possible he actually gave less than half his power to each of them.

      they recieved half of the power of Hagoromo. agreed.

      and this half was from a Hagoromo who no longer was the TTJ. agreed.

      but it was also the non TTJ Hagoromo that fought Kaguya.

      so if Hagormo and Hamura were required to defeat Kaguya at her prime, that means they had each atleast half of her power. (they in sense should be close to her power level to even match with her, but just lets go with some basic maths). so that is half of Kaguya's power. so Naruto and Sasuke recieved 1/4 power of Kaguya.

      this was power recieved from Hagormo and not the power of being the incarnations which would certainly add up to their powers.

      Hagormo being ghost has nothing to do. the Six Paths Power trascends that. look at Obito for example. when he possessed Kakashi he gave him greater power.

      It's Not Johnny wrote: Remember that it was through his power that Naruto and Sasuke could seal Kaguya. So, Hagoromo is broken OP.

      yeah. Hagoromo is OP.

      it was indeed his power that sealed Kaguya, but this power was given to the two and they hold onto it.


      It's Not Johnny wrote: I don't think Naruto and Sasuke are at this level, at least not yet...

      I am making Naruto go ultra mode with ASURA FORM and all.

      indeed they are. or Naruto is. his base Rasengan killed a fused Momo, which was around Kaguya level or greater.


      It's Not Johnny wrote: And even though Hagoromo and Hamura were depowered against Kaguya, she was actually still very strong. Remember that Hagoromo and Hamura were her direct sons, so they inherited her powers. Hagoromo was so strong that he broke logic and awakened the Rinnegan through emotional trauma as if it was a Sharingan. He also learned Sage Mode in an instant and had Six Paths Sage Mode (the original user of it). Hamura had no feats, but he should have been relative to Hagoromo as well. After months of fighting, they finally defeated Kaguya.

      They were first to be born with chakra and it was apparently stated somewhere. i think i talked a bit in detail about it before.

      Most is anime filler.

      even then this actually makes Hagoromo the strongest of the siblings. he passed half his power to the two which would actually be greater than 1/4


      It's Not Johnny wrote: Getting another half of the Kyuubi doesn't double his overall power. It powers up all of his forms that have to do with the Kyuubi.

      indeed it does.

      Yin and Yang Kurama are equal in power. so that is adding 1 + 1 = 2. that essentially doubles Naruto's power. it also means more Senjutsu chakra can be absorbed.

      since in this fight Naruto is essentially going all out, with Asura Mode and all.

      It's Not Johnny wrote: Naruto actually used BSM against Toneri. It wasn't KCM, because the other half of Kurama was still able to form a Kurama Avatar. If he was in KCM, that wouldn't be possible.

      BM is going and becoming Kyubi chakra form all. he didnt so it was KCMSM.

      he also released Kyubi to fight the statue so he could not go BM.

      Also, both Yin and Yang Kurama have long since become one. he cannot and will not seperate them.


      It's Not Johnny wrote: When was it stated Toneri was on par with Hamura?

      never stated. but going by logic, Hamura who had Tenseigan and chakra cloak, which Toneri achieved, he should be on the same level or close by.


      It's Not Johnny wrote: Even if Momoshiki was stronger than Kaguya (I have my doubts about that), it doesn't mean he has better immortality. Kaguya survived 9 Tailed Beast Rasen-Shuriken to the face and came out with scratch marks over her body. The only reason she went unstable was because the Tailed Beasts inside her reacted to the Tailed Beast attacks.

      Momoshiki may not be, but fused Momoshiki was clearly on her level or greater.

      the problem is indeed immortality, but if immortal can be killed why can't the other.

      the nine Tailed beast Rasenshuriken isnt even the strongest attack in his arsenal. he showed greater fire power later on.

      why do you just keep getting back at the Kaguya fight when Naruto showed greater feats later on.

      this is Hokage Naruto vs Kaguya.


      It's Not Johnny wrote: The part about Chakra and all is head canon, but didn't Kaguya state she shared her Chakra with Hagoromo and Hamura? It's never stated they had their own Chakra or anything.

      no. they were born with Chakra.

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    • kaguya cannot be beaten without SP:CB, so close thread.

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    • If Kaguya can absorb Senjutsu as so many people seem to claim...why the hell didn't she, the amount of jutsu she absorbed in her fight with Naruto and Sasuke is a big ol' zilch, zero and a whole lot of nothing. But Starscream you may say, you're being unreasonable as maybe Kaguya didn't deem it necessary to absorb any Senjutsu. You're telling me she can absorb Senjutsu and didn't once think that maybe that ability would come in handy against someone like Naruto!? Kaguya may be able to absorb Senjutsu but she's still logically just as vulnerable to it as her 2 previous Jinchuriki were logically. Saying she could win by just absorbing all of Naruto's Senjutsu attacks is beyond redundant otherwise don't you think she would've won her initial fight with Naruto?

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    • Kurama wasn't referring to strength. He was referring to Sasuke being good at combining all Tailed Beast Chakras to one in order to absorb it into Perfect Susano'o. Later, he says also, "But he's doing the exact opposite of the old man..." which further proves he was talking about how well Sasuke was absorbing Chakra rather than overall power. Makes no sense that Sasuke is stronger than Hagoromo at this stage.

      Okay, neither was used against Kaguya, but I still doubt they'd defeat her by themselves with it, but I guess it's debatable. If one of them is ever trapped in another dimension, it's over. Kaguya can easily do that without worrying about DMS Kakashi, Obito, and Sakura.

      My point with Juubi had to do with what you said about Kyuubi being close to Juubi in power. Kyuubi is powerful, but I don't think it can hold a candle to Juubi in my opinion. As for SPSM, Naruto can definitely defeat the Juubi, but one thing many people miss out when bringing the fact Naruto was stomping Juubidara was that Juubidara was already heavily weakened from fighting Guy. He almost died. He also had no intel on how Naruto gained SPSM. He didn't know that, so he was fighting him as if he was like how he fought him before he gained SPSM, which caused him to underestimate him. That's why he was surprised that Naruto didn't disappear after touching the TSO and was surprised he dodged Limbo. Also, Naruto did use Kyuubi Cloak to amp up his arm after punching Madara. And finally, even though Naruto was beating him up pretty badly, the result remained inconclusive. Madara never died or full-on lost the battle. Naruto retreated to recoup. Madara was busy absorbing the Shinju.

      When did Naruto trade blow for blow with Eighty Gods Vacuum? In the ice dimension or lava dimension? I don't recall.

      Yeah, Naruto and Sasuke got a lot stronger as adults. But what feats are there that make them better than Hagoromo?

      We never actually saw prime Kaguya fight. Prime Kaguya would be the Kaguya right after eating the Chakra Fruit, so she'd have all the Chakra on Earth.

      You make sense, but is it ever stated that being a reincarnation would actually give them power, or does being a reincarnation mean they're destined for power? It's sort of like Itachi saying that you must be acknowledged to become Hokage. I don't think that being a reincarnation means you'll get more power. I think that being one means you're destined to get more power, which for Naruto was Uzumaki reserves, Bijuu, and SPSM as well as SM.

      Hagoromo and Hamura didn't have to be close to her power to match her together. They just have to be half each. The other can take care for the other.

      And by the way, by this analogy, would it mean that Chakra gets multiplied or divided? Because as the series goes, it makes it seem like there is a total amount of Chakra on the Earth. But by your logic of how Chakra works, Hagoromo and Hamura would each have half of Kaguya's Chakra. So, either Kaguya would lose half of her Chakra to give Hagoromo and Hamura half of her power, or she would not and Chakra would multiply, which doesn't make sense since it would mean Earth has unlimited Chakra. Doesn't really make sense if Chakra multiplied. I think it's Chakra dividing as newer generations came.

      I still don't think Momoshiki or Fused Momoshiki are stronger than Kaguya. Yes, it was stated they'd be greater threats, but Sasuke could have misinterpreted that as the whole Ootsutsuki clan being a greater threat rather than just the two or it could just be a wrong statement. Remember it was stated 14 year old Obito was a greater threat than Kurama. Yes, Obito was strong, but in terms of overall power, could he do more destruction than Kurama? Definitely no. Imo, statements need feats to support them. I personally don't think that Fused Momoshiki has feats to support him being stronger than Kaguya.

      I don't think it was ever stated Hagoromo or Hamura had their own Chakra. Kaguya referred to them as, "Oh my children, whom I shared my Chakra with."

      No, having both halves of Kurama doesn't multiply his power. You're forgetting SPSM and SM. SM and SPSM are unrelated to Kyuubi, so the Kyuubi wouldn't enhance those forms by two times, although it would enhance them.

      No, BM is after befriending Kurama. Most notably, in the War Arc, Naruto had a cape with BM. Later, the design is changed. He doesn't have to be in Kurama Avatar for BM. He's shown using it without it.

      And the fact the other half of Kurama went Kurama Avatar means it was BM.

      He released half the Kyuubi to fight the Hamura Golem, not the whole Kyuubi. If that were the case, he would not have Kyuubi Chakra with him.

      Nah, just because they had the same Dojutsu doesn't mean they're same strength. I don't think Toneri was Hamura level.

      Momoshiki was immortal to time, not immortal to damage. Kaguya was actually shown to be immortal by damage. Rinnegan Sasuke flat-out stated that ONLY his Yin and Naruto's Yang could seal her.

      I agree adult Naruto is stronger than War Arc, but I disagree with him being as strong as you think, so I don't think it's worth discussing adult Naruto. That's why I'm talking about vs Kaguya Naruto.

      @Starscream Don't remember Naruto using Senjutsu on Kaguya. Even IF Kaguya couldn't absorb it, she could summon the Divine Tree which is proven to absorb it.

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    • It's Not Johnny wrote: Kurama wasn't referring to strength. He was referring to Sasuke being good at combining all Tailed Beast Chakras to one in order to absorb it into Perfect Susano'o. Later, he says also, "But he's doing the exact opposite of the old man..." which further proves he was talking about how well Sasuke was absorbing Chakra rather than overall power. Makes no sense that Sasuke is stronger than Hagoromo at this stage.

      Yeah. it can be interpreted in that manner.

      i am in no way saying that he suddenly became Hagoromo level. if i worded it so than my bad.

      what Sasuke did was he essentially became TTJ but without sealing the power withing himself. his power rose to a new height and with the Hagoromo's chakra he recieved he went beyond Madara at his strongest.

      he may not be close to TTJ Hagoromo level, but he came close in that power level.


      It's Not Johnny wrote: Okay, neither was used against Kaguya, but I still doubt they'd defeat her by themselves with it, but I guess it's debatable. If one of them is ever trapped in another dimension, it's over. Kaguya can easily do that without worrying about DMS Kakashi, Obito, and Sakura.

      back then they could not even if they went all out. never will i say they could.

      yeah. when Kaguya sent Sasuke to another that is what happened.

      but here it is only Naruto fighting her so sending him to another dimension means nothing. she is just wasting her own chakra and it costs a load on her stated by Black Zetsu.

      It's Not Johnny wrote: My point with Juubi had to do with what you said about Kyuubi being close to Juubi in power. Kyuubi is powerful, but I don't think it can hold a candle to Juubi in my opinion.

      yeah. it is same like SPSM and BM difference. too huge.

      i just pointed out that Kurama was closest in power in comparision to other biju but not even close to be on the same.

      It's Not Johnny wrote: As for SPSM, Naruto can definitely defeat the Juubi, but one thing many people miss out when bringing the fact Naruto was stomping Juubidara was that Juubidara was already heavily weakened from fighting Guy. He almost died. He also had no intel on how Naruto gained SPSM. He didn't know that, so he was fighting him as if he was like how he fought him before he gained SPSM, which caused him to underestimate him. That's why he was surprised that Naruto didn't disappear after touching the TSO and was surprised he dodged Limbo. Also, Naruto did use Kyuubi Cloak to amp up his arm after punching Madara. And finally, even though Naruto was beating him up pretty badly, the result remained inconclusive. Madara never died or full-on lost the battle. Naruto retreated to recoup. Madara was busy absorbing the Shinju.

      Ok. Naruto took Madara by surprise. agreed. and Madara was weakened. agreed.

      but you have to remember that nothing ordinary works against Madara. to even hurt Madara it has to be something extraordinary. it is why Gai could only do so when he went 8Gate Mode.

      Naruto's jutsu even cut Shinju in half and barely a few could even a break a branch before.

      Naruto didnt went to recoup. he moved to get Gai out of danger and in safe hands.


      It's Not Johnny wrote: When did Naruto trade blow for blow with Eighty Gods Vacuum? In the ice dimension or lava dimension? I don't recall.

      Lava dimension.

      It's Not Johnny wrote: Yeah, Naruto and Sasuke got a lot stronger as adults. But what feats are there that make them better than Hagoromo?

      Killing fused Momo with a base Rasengan. smacking him around for good.

      It's Not Johnny wrote: We never actually saw prime Kaguya fight. Prime Kaguya would be the Kaguya right after eating the Chakra Fruit, so she'd have all the Chakra on Earth.

      yeah. that is the real problem here.

      how strong was really Kaguya? the Kaguya in the war was only missing part of 8 biju chakra and half of nine tails and chakra of Kakashi, Sakura and Obito. remember she only awakened when she more or less absorbed the chakra of all those sealed by IT.


      It's Not Johnny wrote: You make sense, but is it ever stated that being a reincarnation would actually give them power, or does being a reincarnation mean they're destined for power? It's sort of like Itachi saying that you must be acknowledged to become Hokage. I don't think that being a reincarnation means you'll get more power. I think that being one means you're destined to get more power, which for Naruto was Uzumaki reserves, Bijuu, and SPSM as well as SM.

      indeed reincarnation gives power. the fact that only combining the chakra of the descendant of the two brother could awaken the Rinnegan means their chakra was passed on to the reincanations. Madara and Sasuke, being the reincarnation of Indra, had the same typ of Sharingan (not their design) something Madara commented on.

      every Uzumaki has high reserves. it is so stated.

      BM, SPSM and SM have nothing to do with being Uzumaki. Jiriaya learnt SM and Minato learnt SM and got BM and neither were Uzumaki. Obito got SPSM too/


      It's Not Johnny wrote: Hagoromo and Hamura didn't have to be close to her power to match her together. They just have to be half each. The other can take care for the other.

      them being half in power would just destroy them in all real sense. they didnt fuse together to equal Kaguya in power. if they were half her strenght than they would simply be destroyed. none of their defence can withstand full power of Kaguya. neither would their jutsu hurt her in any sense.

      they at least have to be some decent level close to her to even defend or attack.

      It's Not Johnny wrote: And by the way, by this analogy, would it mean that Chakra gets multiplied or divided? Because as the series goes, it makes it seem like there is a total amount of Chakra on the Earth. But by your logic of how Chakra works, Hagoromo and Hamura would each have half of Kaguya's Chakra. So, either Kaguya would lose half of her Chakra to give Hagoromo and Hamura half of her power, or she would not and Chakra would multiply, which doesn't make sense since it would mean Earth has unlimited Chakra. Doesn't really make sense if Chakra multiplied. I think it's Chakra dividing as newer generations came.

      Naruto's own chakra multiplied because chakra was given to him.

      apart from the time when Hagoromo passed bits of Chaka to every individual, everyone was born with CHakra. Hagoromo and Hamura too.

      Minato and Kushina didnt give Naruto their own Chakra for him to have his chakra. he was born with it and so did every subsequent generation after chakra was distributed.

      it actually means that there is no fix amount of Chakra.


      It's Not Johnny wrote: I still don't think Momoshiki or Fused Momoshiki are stronger than Kaguya. Yes, it was stated they'd be greater threats, but Sasuke could have misinterpreted that as the whole Ootsutsuki clan being a greater threat rather than just the two or it could just be a wrong statement. Remember it was stated 14 year old Obito was a greater threat than Kurama. Yes, Obito was strong, but in terms of overall power, could he do more destruction than Kurama? Definitely no. Imo, statements need feats to support them. I personally don't think that Fused Momoshiki has feats to support him being stronger than Kaguya.

      Momoshiki can be debated whether he is strong or stronger than Kaguya or not. i think he is not.

      Fused Momoshiki on the other hand is clearly on a different scale.

      Sasuke interpreted Momoshiki to be greater threat because by the time of the movie the two were the only Otstsuki. only by the time Boruto manga and anime came around we see more Otsutsuki.

      Obito was considered greater threat because he essentially could manipulate like he wanted and he did so. indeed he is a greater threat when he could wield the power of Kurama at his will.

      Momoshiki feats - they were able to enter Kaguya's dimension without any problem and unlike Sasuke did not lose any strenght. went on head to head with SPSM Kurama avtar and actually had the upper hand until Sasuke joined in his PS.

      It's Not Johnny wrote: I don't think it was ever stated Hagoromo or Hamura had their own Chakra. Kaguya referred to them as, "Oh my children, whom I shared my Chakra with."

      Yes. it was. i dont know which chapter, but for reference check the wiki on Hagoromo and it is stated in the very first para of him.

      the statement that Kaguya made, i think it was more of a reverse psychology of the Otsutsuki ideal where they essentiallly take away the chakra of their parents and make it their own.

      It's Not Johnny wrote: No, having both halves of Kurama doesn't multiply his power. You're forgetting SPSM and SM. SM and SPSM are unrelated to Kyuubi, so the Kyuubi wouldn't enhance those forms by two times, although it would enhance them.

      SM aside. every mode is dependent on Kyubi. even SPSM to an extent as Naruto only has part of all the other Biju chakra.

      it may not enhance the mode by twice exactly, but it will be close by as his chakra to plays a factor. if Naruto's own chakra has doubled over than it actually does more than twice.


      It's Not Johnny wrote: No, BM is after befriending Kurama. Most notably, in the War Arc, Naruto had a cape with BM. Later, the design is changed. He doesn't have to be in Kurama Avatar for BM. He's shown using it without it.

      Okay. it was indeed BM. my bad there.

      but dont you think that having the Biju fight on his owns in another battle actually leaves him wiith lesser chakra.

      It's Not Johnny wrote: And the fact the other half of Kurama went Kurama Avatar means it was BM.

      yes.


      It's Not Johnny wrote: He released half the Kyuubi to fight the Hamura Golem, not the whole Kyuubi. If that were the case, he would not have Kyuubi Chakra with him.

      can he even divide the Kurama into Yin and Yang?

      and by your statement it means that he was fighting Toneri who was really top up there around Madara level or so with BSM which he used to fight against Jubito.

      It's Not Johnny wrote: Nah, just because they had the same Dojutsu doesn't mean they're same strength. I don't think Toneri was Hamura level.

      how strong was toneri? toneri certainly didnt have any increase in power after Kaguya was sealed like Hagoromo.

      If TTJ Hagromo created the moon with his powers and Toneri actually made a big hole through it and cut it in half, he is bound to be close to their level. he is at least TTJ Madara level.


      It's Not Johnny wrote: Momoshiki was immortal to time, not immortal to damage. Kaguya was actually shown to be immortal by damage. Rinnegan Sasuke flat-out stated that ONLY his Yin and Naruto's Yang could seal her.

      that is the only problem i see. the immortality.

      Kaguya was not immortal by damage. Naruto cut her arm and Kakashi injured her with SIx Paths Kamui Chidori.

      on that note, neither injuries were healed so she apparently doesnt have regeneration ability...

      really if one actually makes a vs thread with Kaguya at the least have her immortality out of the way, because hers is the most trickest and imposible to determine.

      indeed Sasuke would say so. at that time they werent accustomed to their own powers and was given the power to seal her. so he would believe she cannot be killed.


      It's Not Johnny wrote: I agree adult Naruto is stronger than War Arc, but I disagree with him being as strong as you think, so I don't think it's worth discussing adult Naruto. That's why I'm talking about vs Kaguya Naruto.

      but adult Naruto is the one in the fight. so we have to see every little detail he shows to see how strong he has become.

      using him from Kaguya battle is just give him a big L in the debate

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    • It's Not Johnny wrote: @Starscream Don't remember Naruto using Senjutsu on Kaguya. Even IF Kaguya couldn't absorb it, she could summon the Divine Tree which is proven to absorb it.

      So why didn't she?

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    • @Nashikeine Not sure if Sasuke became stronger than Madara there, though.

      It is stated that switching dimensions was starting to take a toll, but I don't believe Black Zetsu stated it took a load of Chakra. Kaguya was able to spam it pretty much the entire fight.

      Yeah, Naurto was able to hurt Madara because he had Six Paths Senjutsu. Being able to hurt him and destroying him are different things. Cutting the Shinju in half is a great feat, though. And Naruto sort of did go to recoup because didn't he sense Sasuke's Chakra and wait for him? I forgot.

      If you're referring to the Chakra clash, then Naruto was actually beaten pretty handily. Kaguya was smiling during the clash, showing she wasn't using very much effort. Naruto was screaming and was knocked away and spinning very rapidly to the point he couldn't save Sasuke.

      Killing Momoshiki with a base Rasengan is a nice feat, but tbf, Momoshiki was sort of distracted while that happened and I believe the Rinnegan on his hands were stabbed with kunai, so he couldn't absorb it. Naruto and Sasuke were weakened and were still smacking him around, true. But I don't think that puts them at Hagoromo level because again, I simply don't buy Momoshiki being stronger than Kaguya or even equal. He doesn't have enough feats in my opinion. Even the Kage were able to deal a lot of damage to Kinshiki and immobilize him and were able to hold their own against (base) Momoshiki. Unless if the Kage are just a lot stronger than their predecessors, I feel like Kaguya could have stomped them all way harder than momo and Kinshiki.

      Yes, we have no way to confirm how powerful prime Kaguya was. Not only did she in the War Arc have an incomplete Ten Tails, but she also didn't have all the Chakra on Earth, different from her prime.

      Okay, I misssed that. So, reincarnations do give power. But do we know if reincarnations gain all the power of Ashura and Indra or just some of their Chakra?

      I didn't say Uzumaki had to do with those forms. I was just saying that his power was Uzumaki reserves as well as all those forms.

      Maybe, but let's not forget that Kaguya was probably trying to take their Chakra away and wasn't bloodlusted. Similarly, we have characters like Juubito and Juubidara who could have destroyed many people, but didn't. For example, Juubito was far stronger than Tobirama, but didn't destroy him. Juubidara was far stronger thanMinato, but didn't kill him. It was either plot or because they weren't bloodlusted or because these characters were just very evasive. Same could apply to Hagoromo and Hamura against Kaguya.

      If there was no fixed amount of Chakra, then the entire thing about the Divine Tree and Chakra Fruit doesn't make sense. Madara stated that after all Chakra on EArth was collected, a new Chakra Fruit would bloom. I think that characters that had Chakra that birthed children, the children already had Chakra because their parents did. That probably explains Kaguya and Hagoromoand Hamura being born with Chakra.

      No, even before the Boruto Manga and Anime, we did know there were more Ootsutsuki looking at how there were the side and main branches of the Ootsutsuki. If you watch the Last, you could see Toneri and his entire clan. These were Hamura's descendants. If Hamura had these descendants, it only makes sense that Kaguya also came from a big bloodline of Ootsutsuki. And we know that Urashiki even was taking orders from the main branch, so he was either taking orders from Momoshiki and Kinshiki or there are separate Ootsutsuki giving them orders. That's why I think Kaguya was fearing the whole clan as oppose to only momoshiki and Kinshiki. And if you include the Anime filler arc, if you lkook at the silhouettes of momoshiki and Kinshiki, you can see a third, probably Urashiki or somebody else.

      Minato said that whoever the masked man was, he was incredible because he could control the demon fox, summon it, and have space-time techniques greater than Tobirama and Minato. I guess you could include the control of the Nine Tails, but I also have another example. Remember that Jiraiya stated only Madara could summon the Nine Tails. It was stated by Konan that Pain was invincible. Also stated in the Manga that Pain was the strongest Akatsuki. Later on, Naruto learns that Obito was maniplating Pain. He implies that Obito is stronger by saying, "How can a guy this strong be manipulated?" It's even stated later by Obito that Nagato was his subordinate. Imo, the part about greater threats could just be hyping the duo up.

      These feats are nice, but the thing is we have no way to gauge how powerful SPSM Kurama Avatar is without saying Momoshiki is stronger than Kaguya. We have no way of gauging Momoshiki's power without saying SPSM Kurama Avatar fought against momoshiki. It's sort of a paradox. And for crossing dimensions, it could just be interpreted as them having superior Space-Time ninjutsu. Remember that Obito could also cross through Kaguya's dimensions without any stress. Even Boruto has shown that with his unmastered Jougan, he could pass through Nue's dimension.

      Yes, it was stated by Madara when explaining the history of Chakra to Hashirama that Hagoromo was born with Chakra. This could either be true or it could be Madara being wrong (remember that Black Zetsu changed things in the Uchiha Stone Tablet).

      It's debatable whether if Hagoromo was born with Chakra or got Chakra shared to him.

      Nevermind, SM is sort of enhanced because it BM allowed Naruto to enter SM more quickly, but it isn't explained if SM power is enhanced with Kyuubi Chakra or not. SPSM is enhanced, but not multiplied. Not sure how Naruto would manage to double his Chakra.

      No, proably not with less Chakra. If he divided Kurama in half, then he would have his own Chakra + SM + half Kurama. Other half only has half of Kurama Avatar Chakra.

      Never explained if he can divide Kurama, but it's the only thing that makes sense.

      Toneri did cut the moon in half, but I don't think he's TTJ Madara levels in power. If I remember correctly, he cut through the hollow moon. Remember that the Ten Tails was so strong that it, in the sensory division, sort of formed its own mini "planet." This was the first form of the Ten Tails, if I remember correctly. Juubi Jinchurikis are far stronger than the Ten Tails. Hagoromo even stated that the revival of the Ten Tails would result the end of the world. Juubito stated the Sword of Nunoboko shaped the world and that he could just as easily destroy the world. Madara was stronger than SPSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke individually who were stronger than Toneri. Remember that they made a moon in Kaguya's dimension pretty casually.

      And Toneri's power was increased becasue he gained the Tenseigan.

      My bad. My wording was wrong. My point was that she was immortal to dying by damage, not immortal to damage.

      No, Kaguya did actually heal her arm after being hit by that attack.

      Didn't Hagoromo also say that Kaguya had to be sealed though? I don't remember.

      Okay, true, but the question is this. Can adult Naruto really do much to Kaguya? Even SPSM Naruto in the War Arc was stomped by Kaguya alone. I am aware that Naruto obviously got stronger later on, but will it make a difference? The thing is that he can't seal her. The only way to defeat her is by killing her, which may be impossible. Even if it was possible, Kaguya was so strong that SPSM Naruto and Rikudou Sasuke took forever just to seal her away, and sealing her away literally just requries them to touch her at the same time. Will being an adult make him that much stronger? Even if it does, will it fill in the even bigger gap which is that Kaguya got exponentially stronger after making the Expansive Truthseeker Orb? Even if it does fill that gap, will it fill in the gap between prime Kaguya and War Arc Kaguya? We don't really have answers for all this.

      @Starscream1998 Probably plot.

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    • @Johnny

      the point that matters the most here is whether Momoshiki is stronger than Kaguya.

      the entire battle can be decided by scaling between the two.

      Again, yes there were other Otsutsuki until the movie came along, but they were descendent of Hamura and not the Otsutki that Kaguya feared. the Hamura descendents were clearly born after Kaguya was sealed away, so really didnt know of them. she was already preparing to fight the Otsutsuki she feared from the time she probably ingested the fruit and did go against her clan. and even then all the Hamura descendents minus TOneri are dead.

      it was stated in the movie that it was Momoshiki and Kinshiki that Kaguya feared. in that sense both are as strong as her or stronger.

      the Otsutsuki that came by around the movie were only Momoshiki and Kinshiki. the third was even scrapped out. the role of Urashiki is more specific to the anime. he isnt even in the manga.

      Naruto did have a hard time in the clash. i never said he was equal. i mentioned it because he was able to hold his own for a quite a while. Kaguya wasnt smirking when they initiated the clash, she did so in the end when she finally knew she got the upper hand.

      OH! Kaguya actually healed her arm from CHidori and did get a new arm too.

      Hagoromo and Hamura are born with Chakra it is confirmed one. no sharing whatsoever. the only one shared his chakra back then was Hagoromo.

      the Rasengan clash i talk with Momoshiki is not about how Momoshiki was distracted and had his Rinnegan disable and what not. i am talking about pure power clash. in both the movie and manga Naruto's Rasegan handled by a weak Boruto overpowered Momoshiki's Rasengan on all frontiers.

      just a thought i came up on now...

      Prime Kaguya seems like the Kaguya who ate the fruit and absorbed the Shinju. after she was sealed the chakra of the SHinju was sealed in by Hagoromo inside him and turned it into the nine Biju. Hagoromo shared his own chakra with people of the world and not the power of the biju. SO in that sense prime Kaguya is only the Gedo Mazo and the biju combined. also when Hagoromo first transformed the chakra of the Shinju into the Biju they were all tiny to their end forms, which means they grew over period and their chakra increased like any normal shinobi whose chakra increases with age. that actually makes prime Kaguya weaker.

      it is just that by end of the war, she just wanted all the Chakra for herself. reverse psychology of Otsutsuki teachings. so in that sense war Kaguya is actually stronger that Prime Kaguya.

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    • @Nashikeine Yes, and until we see more feats of Momoshiki, I'm not convinced he's stronger than Kaguya.

      I am aware of that. I mentioned that in my comment. I just think that there were more Ootsutsuki.

      And as I said, maybe Sasuke was wrong about the Ootsutsuki and thinking Momoshiki and Kinshiki were the ones that were greater threats than Kaguya. It was never mentioned in the movie Kaguya was scared of them. It was only stated they were greater threats.

      Yes, so Urashiki wasn't in the movie and is now being added to the Anime. We know that there are later on even more Ootsutsuki based on what Urashiki said about the main clan giving him orders.

      Just because there weren't more Ootsutsuki in the movie doesn't mean they don't exist.

      True, but she still overwhelmed him without much difficulty.

      Okay, it is true the Rasengan killed Momoshiki. It being handled by Boruto doesn't mean much because it still had all of the power Naruto gave.

      No, the reason the Bijuu were small was because Hagoromo split them from the Ten Tails to 9 separate Bijuu. They were small, but it doesn't mean they had less Chakra. Remember that each of them combined still formed a Ten Tails which was just like how it was in the War Arc, except even stronger as it was more complete. Where is it stated normal Shinobi gain more Chakra as they get older? Where was it stated the Bijuu got more Chakra over time? The Chakra Fruit not only had the power of the Bijuu, but also the Chakra of the entire world, as stated by Madara. Hagoromo was born with his own Chakra because his mother had Chakra. That being said, Kaguya became weaker after birthing Hagoromo and Hamura because Chakra gets divided, not multiplied. If it was multiplied, there would be no set amount. Therefore, it would contradict what Hagoromo said about how all Chakra in the world being absorbed by the Shinju would result in another Chakra Fruit. This also explains why younger generations generally have less Chakra/lifeforce than older ones. For example, Naruto had less Chakra than Hashirama. He had less Chakra than Kushina. (this is talkig about Naruto in base). Sasuke had less Chakra than Madara with the EMS because he wasn't able to form a Perfect Susano'o. Madara also had enough Chakra to absorb Hashirama's SM Chakra and not turn to stone, which meant that the Sage Mode Chakra did not outbalance the physical and spiritual energy in his Chakra. He was able to handle this power pretty easily.

      Kaguya in her prime was Kaguya directly after eating the Chakra Fruit. The only thing about her prime was that she was pregnant.

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    • @Johnny

      As i said in my original post that Naruto has a chance of winning against Kaguya - he isnt certain to win, but he has a great chance. his chances immensly improve with where did Momoshiki, especially his fused version stands. it is considered by some that he is weaker than Kaguya and some have him higher than Kaguya. until that is resolved i will say Naruto has a chance but a 30-70 or so.


      that was a fun little theory i just came on the spot, nothing really to be bothered much about.

      Yes, shinobi chakra does grow with age. Sasuke could barely use CHidori two or three times a day in PTS and later in Shippuden he was spamming Chidori like it didnt bother him at all. by last he could use his normal Chidori to destory half a meteor where in in the war he had to go PS to do the deed.


      Indeed Naruto and Sasuke would have less Chakra that Kushina and Hashirama (for Naruto) and Madara (for Sasuke), they were barely teens. only sixteen years old, while everyone else was in their prime age.

      what made me come up with the theory is that it didnt matter that Obito had only acquired a tiny bit of chakra from Hachibi and Kyubi, who are the strongest of the Biju, he revived Jubi and it revived at its full glory.

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    • Nashikeine wrote: @Johnny

      As i said in my original post that Naruto has a chance of winning against Kaguya - he isnt certain to win, but he has a great chance. his chances immensly improve with where did Momoshiki, especially his fused version stands. it is considered by some that he is weaker than Kaguya and some have him higher than Kaguya. until that is resolved i will say Naruto has a chance but a 30-70 or so.


      that was a fun little theory i just came on the spot, nothing really to be bothered much about.

      Yes, shinobi chakra does grow with age. Sasuke could barely use CHidori two or three times a day in PTS and later in Shippuden he was spamming Chidori like it didnt bother him at all. by last he could use his normal Chidori to destory half a meteor where in in the war he had to go PS to do the deed.


      Indeed Naruto and Sasuke would have less Chakra that Kushina and Hashirama (for Naruto) and Madara (for Sasuke), they were barely teens. only sixteen years old, while everyone else was in their prime age.

      what made me come up with the theory is that it didnt matter that Obito had only acquired a tiny bit of chakra from Hachibi and Kyubi, who are the strongest of the Biju, he revived Jubi and it revived at its full glory.

      I can respect those chances. I just think Naruto would have a time hard with her power, her immortality, and Infinite Tsukuyomi.

      One thing we both forgot is that Kaguya can actually hide herself in a different dimension and "fuse" with nature. This is pretty broken because there's no way to really beat her unless if you a) have the power to beat her and b) are able to hop through dimensions to find her. She probably didn't spam this against Team 7 because she was intent on stealing their Chakra. The OP says this is a death battle, so she could just do this and Naruto ahs no way of retaliating. She could outlast him this way.

      To be fair, Sasuke did gain a lot of unnatural power-ups in Shippuden. And it's also possible that his control over Chakra just gained better as well.

      That fact is irrelevant if adults don't gain more Chakra than children. Im pretty sure that everbody has a sset amount of Chakra as children, but they learn to control it better as adults. It only makes sense. If Chakra multiplied, it'd (again) contradict with Hagoromo saying that all Chakra becoming one would result in the birth of another Chakra Fruit.

      The Juubi's power is weird because Obito stated that even though it was a fragment, its potency was no less. However, Obito also stated that he would have liked to revive it at full power. I don't understand, but it only makes sense that a full Juubi would be more powerful than a fragmented Juubi.

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    • I’d say Kaguya would win this one. Naruto is indeed super strong and all, but I’m not sure he’d win against Kaguya. He wouldn’t be able to keep up with the constant Amenominaka-ing.

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    • @Johnny

      Yes. even i agree that IT is instakill and her regen is really otherworldly. with those two abilities she has the clear upperhand.

      the thing about regen is that she still can be hurt and such enough power can actually do her in. now that power all depends on Momoshiki's level being set for certain.

      She already did fuse with Nature and fought Naruto in the ice dimension and even though Naruto had trouble around it he managaed with the help of other Biju. so using proper Biju and their power Naruto can counter the fused nature attacks.

      Actually she didnt intend to kill Naruto. after Sasuke was seperated and Naruto clone made it to the dimension that connected all dimension she chose to kill Naruto instead of trying to regain his chakra. he was considered a great threat. that is why she not once hesitated to use Ash Bones insta kill against him.

      if Sasuke isnt a good example for you than take CHouji as an example. in PTS he needed special pills to go butterfly mode, but in war arc he could do so by himself and even in giant form. Kiba who could only do two headed wolf technique could use a shadow clone in war and do a three headed wolf technique.

      Chakra will grow with age. it is mixture of physical and spiritual chakra (Yin and Yang). as a person grows their physical power grows. they experience new things and become more knowledgeable and such there is growth in spiritual chakra. with both Yang and Yin grow with age, Chakra of a person will also grow.


      the Jubi power was a wierd bit. but it was revived by only parts of Hachibi and Kyubi. both of whom did mention that it was Jubi at his full power at various points. the fact that the tree was manifesting the Chakra fruit and third eye should not be possible until it was full power at least

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    • Well, if Naruto got the full force of Hagoromo it would be a chance that he will win or draw.

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    • True.

      True.

      My point with fusing with nature is that she could pressure Naruto and outlast him that way. Naruto can't dodge forever. Kaguya was also holding back so as to not kill Naruto so she could absorb his Chakra.

      I don't remember the part of her wanting to kill Naruto. Ih have to read the fight again.

      It could stll be defined as better Chakra control, though.

      My problem with Chakra growing with age is that it means it multiplies or gets added, which contradicts with Hagoromo stating all Chakra combining into one would result into another Chakra Fruit.

      Kurama actually stated that he might have been able to take on the Juubi because it was a fragment. It's the opposite of what you said. It turned out to be wrong, but hey.

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    • Does it matter Amitabh Bachchan stomps on all of them

      Ps: i think I'm the only person here who knows Bachchan haha

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    • @Johnny

      Yes. she will certainly have the advantage when she decides to become one with Nature. no doubt. i just meant that Naruto can keep his own even in this condition. if you actually think than apart from the gravity dimension he has skills to hold his own against the nature of those dimensions. for Lava dimension he has Son Goku's skills. for Ice dimension he already showed Kokuo's powers. for sand dimension he has Shukaku. for acid realm he has Saiken.

      Chakra grows. no doubt.

      and I said the Jubi revival was wierd.


      @Quad

      i do know to of Bachchan.

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    • '-'

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    • @Nashikeine Yes, that's true. He has the skills. I never denied that. My only point was that he could be outlasted. As far as we're aware, fusing with nature doesn't take Chakra. Even if it did, Kaguya has a lot more Chakra to expend than Naruto. Naruto only has portions of Chakra from his Tailed Beasts. Eventually, the Tailed Beasts would run out of Chakra. Later on, his own Chakra would run out.

      Should we just leave the "Chakra growing" discussion at that? It seems we have differing opinions.

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    • While this can be easily known that Naruto can Over Power Kaguya, defeating her to the death seems a bit tricky. From what I recall sealing her was the only option they had to defeat Kaguya, is sealing her. (If I recall that is what it was)

      But taking away that immortality, Naruto would be able to defeat her, he has outsmarted her before, and with his prankster imagination, he can do it again in a different matter. I'd give this a Naruto Victory, but it wouldn't be east without Sasuke. I'd Imagine alone he'd have more injuries alone than he when Fighting Sasuke.

      We need to remember that Black zetsu told Kaguya to kill them instead of sparing them because of their threat to seal her, which she agreed to, and she was going all out during the final minutes of the fight, where Naruto (with Sasuke) Managed to go further and beyond going all out. Over all Naruto could defeat her with injuries still, probably enough that could kill a normal Shinobi who doesn't have Kurama healing factor, or Hashirama's.

      So in my opinion, Naruto would win, but with serious injuries.

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    • Sasuke didn't do anything worth mentiniong against Kaguya other than helping the sealing, Naruto do nearly all the fighting.

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    • No SP:CB, no win. Naruto loses.

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    • Kinglink15 wrote: While this can be easily known that Naruto can Over Power Kaguya, defeating her to the death seems a bit tricky. From what I recall sealing her was the only option they had to defeat Kaguya, is sealing her. (If I recall that is what it was)

      But taking away that immortality, Naruto would be able to defeat her, he has outsmarted her before, and with his prankster imagination, he can do it again in a different matter. I'd give this a Naruto Victory, but it wouldn't be east without Sasuke. I'd Imagine alone he'd have more injuries alone than he when Fighting Sasuke.

      We need to remember that Black zetsu told Kaguya to kill them instead of sparing them because of their threat to seal her, which she agreed to, and she was going all out during the final minutes of the fight, where Naruto (with Sasuke) Managed to go further and beyond going all out. Over all Naruto could defeat her with injuries still, probably enough that could kill a normal Shinobi who doesn't have Kurama healing factor, or Hashirama's.

      So in my opinion, Naruto would win, but with serious injuries.

      Who cares if Kaguya is immortal? Naruto from the novel is star level scaling off from Momoshiki who in his base form frigging create a star sized dimension which is confirmed by Sasuke. He was stated in Kishimoto's interview that Kinshiki Absorbed Monoshiki could absorb a star. Immortality =/= indestructiblity. Is Kaguya even strong enough to tank a large star+ level attack potency from Naruto??? If not, then she is blown to miniscule sized cell, so it's game over for her.

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    • Novel feats do not supercede the movie, manga or the direct anime.

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    • Manga and novels are primary canons. Movie(s) and anime (if there is nothing to condradict and approved by the author/writer/director) are canon.

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    • Naruto with these additions probably. He was pacing quite well with Kaguya in canon.

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    • Probably Naruto but i'm irrelevant what do i know? xD

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    • I guess Kaguya being immortal unless sealed just goes over everybodies heads.

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    • JohnCenaNation wrote:

      Kinglink15 wrote: While this can be easily known that Naruto can Over Power Kaguya, defeating her to the death seems a bit tricky. From what I recall sealing her was the only option they had to defeat Kaguya, is sealing her. (If I recall that is what it was)

      But taking away that immortality, Naruto would be able to defeat her, he has outsmarted her before, and with his prankster imagination, he can do it again in a different matter. I'd give this a Naruto Victory, but it wouldn't be east without Sasuke. I'd Imagine alone he'd have more injuries alone than he when Fighting Sasuke.

      We need to remember that Black zetsu told Kaguya to kill them instead of sparing them because of their threat to seal her, which she agreed to, and she was going all out during the final minutes of the fight, where Naruto (with Sasuke) Managed to go further and beyond going all out. Over all Naruto could defeat her with injuries still, probably enough that could kill a normal Shinobi who doesn't have Kurama healing factor, or Hashirama's.

      So in my opinion, Naruto would win, but with serious injuries.

      Who cares if Kaguya is immortal? Naruto from the novel is star level scaling off from Momoshiki who in his base form frigging create a star sized dimension which is confirmed by Sasuke. He was stated in Kishimoto's interview that Kinshiki Absorbed Monoshiki could absorb a star. Immortality =/= indestructiblity. Is Kaguya even strong enough to tank a large star+ level attack potency from Naruto??? If not, then she is blown to miniscule sized cell, so it's game over for her.

      This is a battle to the death. And it was stated she is immortal. So it does matter if she is because if we include her immortality, the only thing she can do is retreat when she is beaten to what we would consider, "dead" And the only method to defeat her is sealing her. So even if she is dealt with that level of power from Naruto, she isn't dead.

      That's why I said if we are counting her immortality, Naruto won't win a death battle against her, while she ca run out of chakra, she can also recharge it. Take that away she is still immortal. Take that away she is mortal.

      So while Naruto can beat the living soul outta her, unless her immortality isn't counted, or Naruto has the ability to seal her. He won't win this death battle. Her best option is to retreat to earth, absorb chakra he lost, and return in an instant. and continue. While Naruto is limited to chakra himself.

      If we don't count her immortality, then yes, Naruto could kill her after a long and hard battle.

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    • Kinglink15 wrote:

      JohnCenaNation wrote:

      Kinglink15 wrote: While this can be easily known that Naruto can Over Power Kaguya, defeating her to the death seems a bit tricky. From what I recall sealing her was the only option they had to defeat Kaguya, is sealing her. (If I recall that is what it was)

      But taking away that immortality, Naruto would be able to defeat her, he has outsmarted her before, and with his prankster imagination, he can do it again in a different matter. I'd give this a Naruto Victory, but it wouldn't be east without Sasuke. I'd Imagine alone he'd have more injuries alone than he when Fighting Sasuke.

      We need to remember that Black zetsu told Kaguya to kill them instead of sparing them because of their threat to seal her, which she agreed to, and she was going all out during the final minutes of the fight, where Naruto (with Sasuke) Managed to go further and beyond going all out. Over all Naruto could defeat her with injuries still, probably enough that could kill a normal Shinobi who doesn't have Kurama healing factor, or Hashirama's.

      So in my opinion, Naruto would win, but with serious injuries.

      Who cares if Kaguya is immortal? Naruto from the novel is star level scaling off from Momoshiki who in his base form frigging create a star sized dimension which is confirmed by Sasuke. He was stated in Kishimoto's interview that Kinshiki Absorbed Monoshiki could absorb a star. Immortality =/= indestructiblity. Is Kaguya even strong enough to tank a large star+ level attack potency from Naruto??? If not, then she is blown to miniscule sized cell, so it's game over for her.

      This is a battle to the death. And it was stated she is immortal. So it does matter if she is because if we include her immortality, the only thing she can do is retreat when she is beaten to what we would consider, "dead" And the only method to defeat her is sealing her. So even if she is dealt with that level of power from Naruto, she isn't dead.

      That's why I said if we are counting her immortality, Naruto won't win a death battle against her, while she ca run out of chakra, she can also recharge it. Take that away she is still immortal. Take that away she is mortal.

      So while Naruto can beat the living soul outta her, unless her immortality isn't counted, or Naruto has the ability to seal her. He won't win this death battle. Her best option is to retreat to earth, absorb chakra he lost, and return in an instant. and continue. While Naruto is limited to chakra himself.

      If we don't count her immortality, then yes, Naruto could kill her after a long and hard battle.

      Aie.

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    • You revived a dead thread. :(

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    • I wonder if Boruto from the future could defeat her.

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    • He can't'nt ;_;

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: He can't'nt ;_;

      We don't yet know that for absolute certain, as we have not seen him fighting Kawaki yet, let alone after the fight. Guess we'll just have to wait a decade.

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    • @Elsandosgrande...wasn't being serious lol. (proof>> there is no such word as cant'nt)

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: @Elsandosgrande...wasn't being serious lol. (proof>> there is no such word as cant'nt)

      Stop making up words that don't exist. -_-

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    • I believe Kaguya can be defeated without using the Hagoromo's seal, for instace in a deadly battle vs whoever has both rinnegan and juubi's power (basically whoever has the rinnesharingan) otherwise only a group of individuals together can face her.

      Elsandosgrande wrote: I wonder if Boruto from the future could defeat her.

      that would be nice, since we have seen an image with boruto with a strange red-yellow aura

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    • Zetandroid wrote: I believe Kaguya can be defeated without using the Hagoromo's seal, for instace in a deadly battle vs whoever has both rinnegan and juubi's power (basically whoever has the rinnesharingan) otherwise only a group of individuals together can face her.

      The problem is that Kaguya is basically the Ten-Tails in human form. She and the Ten-Tails (by extension the Rinne Sharingan) cannot exist in two separate bodies. Not to mention she's immortal and can absorb all chakra. The only way to negate her powers is through the Six Paths — Chibaku Tensei, which seals her Rinne Sharingan and forces her chakra outside of her body.

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    • I agree, so the only possibility would be an otsutsuki that has got the rinnesharingan from another planet

      JOA20 wrote: The problem is that Kaguya is basically the Ten-Tails in human form. She and the Ten-Tails (by extension the Rinne Sharingan) cannot exist in two separate bodies. Not to mention she's immortal and can absorb all chakra. The only way to negate her powers is through the Six Paths — Chibaku Tensei, which seals her Rinne Sharingan and forces her chakra outside of her body.

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    • JOA20 wrote:

      Zetandroid wrote: I believe Kaguya can be defeated without using the Hagoromo's seal, for instace in a deadly battle vs whoever has both rinnegan and juubi's power (basically whoever has the rinnesharingan) otherwise only a group of individuals together can face her.

      The problem is that Kaguya is basically the Ten-Tails in human form. She and the Ten-Tails (by extension the Rinne Sharingan) cannot exist in two separate bodies. Not to mention she's immortal and can absorb all chakra. The only way to negate her powers is through the Six Paths — Chibaku Tensei, which seals her Rinne Sharingan and forces her chakra outside of her body.

      Or Naruto can just beat her up to the point she can't regenerate anymore and would get tired out? Immortality =/= indestructiblity. Kaguya can keep fighting as long as she could, but can't do it forever.

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    • JohnCenaNation wrote: Or Naruto can just beat her up to the point she can't regenerate anymore and would get tired out? Immortality =/= indestructiblity. Kaguya can keep fighting as long as she could, but can't do it forever.

      What can Naruto do to Kaguya without the sealing technique? Even with the Sage Art: Super Tailed Beast Rasenshuriken the most he could do was making Kaguya briefly lose control of the tailed beasts, which she regained by absorbing chakra through God: Nativity of a World of Trees. While Naruto could escape Yomotsu Hirasaka, Amenominaka is impossible to neutralise.

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    • JOA20 wrote:

      JohnCenaNation wrote: Or Naruto can just beat her up to the point she can't regenerate anymore and would get tired out? Immortality =/= indestructiblity. Kaguya can keep fighting as long as she could, but can't do it forever.

      What can Naruto do to Kaguya without the sealing technique? Even with the Sage Art: Super Tailed Beast Rasenshuriken the most he could do was making Kaguya briefly lose control of the tailed beasts, which she regained by absorbing chakra through God: Nativity of a World of Trees. While Naruto could escape Yomotsu Hirasaka, Amenominaka is impossible to neutralise.

      That's what I'm saying. All he has to do is keep her busy until she tires out or can't fight anymore, and he wins. Also, we are not changing location. I already mentioned in the op it's one location, and it will stay the same.

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    • She won't get tired, she is also a tailed beast host ,chances are Naruto gets tired and uses up all his chakra. Adult Naruto can obviously give a better fight and can land hits on her unlike teen Naruto who could only keep up with kaguya. But at the end he'll be beaten by IT or removed from battlefield with amenominaka ,and he can't come back as he'll be stuck there. He cannot refill his chakra again and again,once he uses up kurama's chakra and his own he'll be done. Even if Naruto uses a Spirit ball rasegan on her,kaguya will just absorb it.

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    • Soloking itachi15 wrote: She won't get tired, she is also a tailed beast host ,chances are Naruto gets tired and uses up all his chakra. Adult Naruto can obviously give a better fight and can land hits on her unlike teen Naruto who could only keep up with kaguya. But at the end he'll be beaten by IT or removed from battlefield with amenominaka ,and he can't come back as he'll be stuck there. He cannot refill his chakra again and again,once he uses up kurama's chakra and his own he'll be done. Even if Naruto uses a Spirit ball rasegan on her,kaguya will just absorb it.

      A tailed beast host can get tired as well. Naruto is host of not only Kurama, but of each tailed beast who he has small chakra within him. Also, even if she uses Amenominaka, she needs to capture Naruto, who is well aware of her ability and has shown to have great reflexes and speed to avoid it. But lets say Narut let his guard down and was captured, there is a way to escape where ever she lands Naruto; Naruto jsut needs to summon one of his toads and inform them that he is trapped in an unknown location, once the jutsu is released, (I am not giving to much detail into it jsut making a point) Naruto can be summoned (again there will need to be methods for this to be done). Or One of the toads he summoned (if he does summon them) would witness him being taken to another location, Naruto pulls the same method i just mentioned, and there we go.

      But again, this is a battle to the death, and Kaguya will need to kill him. So she can get tired out, and she can only recharge her chakra is if she goes back to earth and recharge there. YES She cna send Narut to her core dimension and go to earth to recharge, but like I mentioned above, Naruto would have time to escape and stop her before she can fully recharge.

      Overall Naruto is well aware of Kaguya's ability and would be well aware of avoiding them. So Naruto can still win, because he wouldn't just let Kaguya catch him.

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    • @kinglink how will Naruto win exactly ? Naruto does not have the rinnegan or you seal ,so he cannot seal her. Naruto's spirit ball rasengan will be absorbed when it comes in contact with her. Naruto super tailed beast rasenshuriken will destabilize her,but she will regain control just like did last time. Kaguya is the ten tails host,she has enormous amount of chakra compared to the nine tails, Naruto will run out of chakra before she does. She can regenerate chakra by absorbing his jutsus. Even if naurto is well aware of her abilities, still he doesn't have anything in his arsenal to beat her. Kaguya has IT which he cannot counter.

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    • Soloking itachi15 wrote: @kinglink how will Naruto win exactly ? Naruto does not have the rinnegan or you seal ,so he cannot seal her. Naruto's spirit ball rasengan will be absorbed when it comes in contact with her. Naruto super tailed beast rasenshuriken will destabilize her,but she will regain control just like did last time. Kaguya is the ten tails host,she has enormous amount of chakra compared to the nine tails, Naruto will run out of chakra before she does. She can regenerate chakra by absorbing his jutsus. Even if naurto is well aware of her abilities, still he doesn't have anything in his arsenal to beat her. Kaguya has IT which he cannot counter.

      She isn't a Tailed Beast host, she is an alien who can transform into Ten-Tails. Learn the difference. Also an older Naruto beat up someone that Kaguya was shit scared off and weaker against.

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    • Soloking itachi15 wrote: @kinglink how will Naruto win exactly ? Naruto does not have the rinnegan or you seal ,so he cannot seal her. Naruto's spirit ball rasengan will be absorbed when it comes in contact with her. Naruto super tailed beast rasenshuriken will destabilize her,but she will regain control just like did last time. Kaguya is the ten tails host,she has enormous amount of chakra compared to the nine tails, Naruto will run out of chakra before she does. She can regenerate chakra by absorbing his jutsus. Even if naurto is well aware of her abilities, still he doesn't have anything in his arsenal to beat her. Kaguya has IT which he cannot counter.

      Explain to me how she regained control last time? if I recall her battle against Naruto and Sasuke, Black Zetsu has stated that she was running low on chakra by then and needed to return to earth to recharge. she was even shown backed int oa corner and exhausted as well.

      Yes there is no way to defeat her to the death, that is where she wins, I have stated that before. But I also stated that if victory was to be counted on her retreating after being beaten badly that a normal shinobi would die, Naruto would have that victory.

      Also Kaguya can have IT, but using it requires her to reflect it off the moon and back, the location SHOWN in the first thread, has no moon (unless we are counting this location to be post battle) So IT would be usless, but lets say the moon is there, She would need to fly high enough for her Rinnesharingan to deflect the moon and activate the jutsu. Of course Naruto wouldn't just let her do it. ANd can fly also. So as I said, if victory counts as i stated, Naruto can win. If not, Kaguya can.

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    • She is the ten tails, she holds the chakra of the ten tails and the chakra of the people connected to the Divine tree. She obviously has more chakra than naruto, so if it's anyone who gets chakra exhaustion it's Naruto. When the super tailed beast bombs hit her,it didn't injure her, it reacted with the tailed beast inside her and caused her to go into a uncontrollable tailed beast state which she regained control via absorbing more chakra. Even if Naruto does the same, even she can do the same. She doesn't need to go back to Earth to charge up, she did it in her dimension also. IT doesn't need a moon for a single guy, she can use Byakugan to cover the distance and KO him. It's has been said before in this thread. She can launch the IT for Naruto with rinnesharingan directly and oneshot him. She can use the expansive truth seeking orbs to destroy the entire dimension. She can trap him in another dimension via amenominaka. But do tell how exactly will Naruto defeat her ? It's a death battle ,read the op, how does Naruto kill her ?

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    • Soloking itachi15 wrote: She is the ten tails, she holds the chakra of the ten tails and the chakra of the people connected to the Divine tree. She obviously has more chakra than naruto, so if it's anyone who gets chakra exhaustion it's Naruto. When the super tailed beast bombs hit her,it didn't injure her, it reacted with the tailed beast inside her and caused her to go into a uncontrollable tailed beast state which she regained control via absorbing more chakra. Even if Naruto does the same, even she can do the same. She doesn't need to go back to Earth to charge up, she did it in her dimension also. IT doesn't need a moon for a single guy, she can use Byakugan to cover the distance and KO him. It's has been said before in this thread. She can launch the IT for Naruto with rinnesharingan directly and oneshot him. She can use the expansive truth seeking orbs to destroy the entire dimension. She can trap him in another dimension via amenominaka. But do tell how exactly will Naruto defeat her ? It's a death battle ,read the op, how does Naruto kill her ?

      Actually, you do need the moon to cast Mugen Tsukuyomi as shown by both Kaguya and Madara. Rinne Sharingan isn't enough.

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    • JohnCenaNation wrote: Actually, you do need the moon to cast Mugen Tsukuyomi as shown by both Kaguya and Madara. Rinne Sharingan isn't enough.

      Kaguya used the moon only in the anime, in the manga it's unknown how she cast IT. As I see it, the moon is required only to cast IT on a global scale, while eye contact is enough to use it on individuals. There was no moon in Kaguya's time, how could she cast IT without it? The anime did a very poor filler of Kaguya's backstory, I'd rather forget about it.

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    • JOA20 wrote:

      JohnCenaNation wrote: Actually, you do need the moon to cast Mugen Tsukuyomi as shown by both Kaguya and Madara. Rinne Sharingan isn't enough.

      Kaguya used the moon only in the anime, in the manga it's unknown how she cast IT. As I see it, the moon is required only to cast IT on a global scale, while eye contact is enough to use it on individuals. There was no moon in Kaguya's time, how could she cast IT without it? The anime did a very poor filler of Kaguya's backstory, I'd rather forget about it.

      To cast a genjutsu of this scale, the user's Rinne Sharingan must be reflected off of the moon.

      Sorry pal, but that's not how the jutsu works.

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    • JohnCenaNation wrote: To cast a genjutsu of this scale, the user's Rinne Sharingan must be reflected off of the moon.

      Sorry pal, but that's not how the jutsu works.

      Check the ref: Naruto chapter 606, page 12. Madara himself says that to cast the genjutsu on the entire world he has to reflect it on the moon.

      Sorry pal, but that's how it works.

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    • JohnCenaNation wrote:

      JOA20 wrote:

      JohnCenaNation wrote: Actually, you do need the moon to cast Mugen Tsukuyomi as shown by both Kaguya and Madara. Rinne Sharingan isn't enough.

      Kaguya used the moon only in the anime, in the manga it's unknown how she cast IT. As I see it, the moon is required only to cast IT on a global scale, while eye contact is enough to use it on individuals. There was no moon in Kaguya's time, how could she cast IT without it? The anime did a very poor filler of Kaguya's backstory, I'd rather forget about it.

      To cast a genjutsu of this scale, the user's Rinne Sharingan must be reflected off of the moon.

      Sorry pal, but that's not how the jutsu works.

      Only for a single individual the rinnesharingan is enough. The moon is a reflector, it reflects the rinnesharingan and cast the mugen tsukyoumi on the planet.You don't need the damn moon just to put a individual in mugen tsukyoumi. If Naruto left the battlefield and tried to gain distance ,then kaguya can launch the mugen tsukyoumi from the moon and capture him at any part of the planet.

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    • @Soloking Itachi. It seems you fail to understand that she still got exhausted in her battle against both Naruto and Sasuke, she can't recharge Chakra from the tat dimension, Black zetsu has proven this by telling her that she needs to return to earth to regain the chakra she wasted.

      I already given evidence and statement on how Naruto could win. You seem to fail to read my post entirely, or are too into the debate to see that I agreed that IF the battle required DEATH and only DEATH to win, Naruto would lose, not easily, but it would still be a challange. But if his victory was to be counted on beating her to where she does need to rereat in order to gather more Chakra, that's the only way his victory can be counted.

      So again, as I stated several thousand times (not really just a few times) Naruto would lose if it was a battle to the death, but if her retreating after being beaten to a point that it can be considered death to a normal shinobi, then he wins.

      On the IT topic @JOA20 and @JohnCenaNation, there is no evidence backing up that it doesn't require the moon, but I do agree that there is also no evidence that it does require it on a single person. AS far as we know the moon, according to what was told, was created from both her sons. On how she managed to cast the genjutsu is unknown. The anime showed her doing so by using the moon, but from the lore we were told about earth, the moon did not exist at all.

      So yes Kaguya can use IT, she never displayed doing it duringg the battle, I know a lot of you will say "FOR THE PLOOOOT" with your mighty swords, but lets not blame the plot, and state the obvoius, she and BLack zetsu did not think on using it, because maybe she can't after using it once? She could have used it n both of her sons but never did, there is a reason to it, that we were never told as of yet. Over all she did not use it during a battle for what ever reason, would she use it against Naruto? Maybe, maybe not.

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    • Kinglink15 wrote: @Soloking Itachi. It seems you fail to understand that she still got exhausted in her battle against both Naruto and Sasuke, she can't recharge Chakra from the tat dimension, Black zetsu has proven this by telling her that she needs to return to earth to regain the chakra she wasted.

      Kaguya was "exhausted" because she overused Amenominaka, which requires a huge deal of chakra. If she can't use it, then she gets exhausted way more slowly. We don't know how much chakra is required for her other techniques, but it's safe to say that Amenominaka is the most chakra-taxing.

      Kaguya can recharge chakra in the core dimension as well, not only on Earth. See when she managed to regain control of the tailed beasts to create an Expansive Truth-Seeking Ball.

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    • @kinglink check out the anime again, when she transformed into the ten tails, she absorbed the chakra from the Divine tree in her own dimension, you can see it breaking through the ground below and reaching her. She does not need to go to Earth back again. She can do it again and again. Sasuke and Nagato both showed the ability to fill up their reserves by absorbing attacks so kaguya can do the same.

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    • Soloking itachi15 wrote:

      JohnCenaNation wrote:

      JOA20 wrote:

      JohnCenaNation wrote: Actually, you do need the moon to cast Mugen Tsukuyomi as shown by both Kaguya and Madara. Rinne Sharingan isn't enough.

      Kaguya used the moon only in the anime, in the manga it's unknown how she cast IT. As I see it, the moon is required only to cast IT on a global scale, while eye contact is enough to use it on individuals. There was no moon in Kaguya's time, how could she cast IT without it? The anime did a very poor filler of Kaguya's backstory, I'd rather forget about it.

      To cast a genjutsu of this scale, the user's Rinne Sharingan must be reflected off of the moon.

      Sorry pal, but that's not how the jutsu works.

      Only for a single individual the rinnesharingan is enough. The moon is a reflector, it reflects the rinnesharingan and cast the mugen tsukyoumi on the planet.You don't need the damn moon just to put a individual in mugen tsukyoumi. If Naruto left the battlefield and tried to gain distance ,then kaguya can launch the mugen tsukyoumi from the moon and capture him at any part of the planet.

      Yes, you need the damn moon dumbass, it was stated in the fricking manga by Madara, Kaguya even had to summon a moon from her dimension to use Mugen Tsukuyomi as well, unless you can provide me evidence where you can use Mugen Tsukuyomi without the damn moon, you can shut up with your headcanon.

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    • JohnCenaNation wrote: Yes, you need the damn moon dumbass, it was stated in the fricking manga by Madara, Kaguya even had to summon a moon from her dimension to use Mugen Tsukuyomi as well, unless you can provide me evidence where you can use Mugen Tsukuyomi without the damn moon, you can shut up with your headcanon.

      As I said, Kaguya's IT in the anime was filler, poorly made to boot. Madara said that to cast the genjutsu on the whole world he needed to reflect it on the moon.

      In the manga, Hagoromo hinted that Kaguya combined the Rinne Sharingan and the Byakugan to cast the IT (I think she used the Byakugan to somewhat increase the range of the genjutsu, since there was no moon).

      But if you really want to say that IT requires the moon, what stops Kaguya from using it on Naruto here? She can use Yomotsu Hirasaka for that. He isn't immune since he has no Rinnegan, otherwise Sasuke wouldn't have bothered to cover Team 7 with his Susanoo.

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    • JOA20 wrote:

      JohnCenaNation wrote: Yes, you need the damn moon dumbass, it was stated in the fricking manga by Madara, Kaguya even had to summon a moon from her dimension to use Mugen Tsukuyomi as well, unless you can provide me evidence where you can use Mugen Tsukuyomi without the damn moon, you can shut up with your headcanon.

      As I said, Kaguya's IT in the anime was filler, poorly made to boot. Madara said that to cast the genjutsu on the whole world he needed to reflect it on the moon.

      In the manga, Hagoromo hinted that Kaguya combined the Rinne Sharingan and the Byakugan to cast the IT (I think she used the Byakugan to somewhat increase the range of the genjutsu, since there was no moon).

      But if you really want to say that IT requires the moon, what stops Kaguya from using it on Naruto here? She can use Yomotsu Hirasaka for that. He isn't immune since he has no Rinnegan, otherwise Sasuke wouldn't have bothered to cover Team 7 with his Susanoo.

      Obito was able to cover himself with the Truth-Seeking Ball completely sealing away the light in case Mugen Tsukuyomi was casted, so Naruto can do the same thing with his Truth-Seeking Orb.

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    • JohnCenaNation wrote: Obito was able to cover himself with the Truth-Seeking Ball completely sealing away the light in case Mugen Tsukuyomi was casted, so Naruto can do the same thing with his Truth-Seeking Orb.

      Madara said that the light of Infinite Tsukuyomi pierces even the shadows, there's no way to escape it. Only a Rinnegan-powered Susanoo was able to shield people from it, something that surprised even Black Zetsu.

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    • JOA20 wrote:

      JohnCenaNation wrote: Obito was able to cover himself with the Truth-Seeking Ball completely sealing away the light in case Mugen Tsukuyomi was casted, so Naruto can do the same thing with his Truth-Seeking Orb.

      Madara said that the light of Infinite Tsukuyomi pierces even the shadows, there's no way to escape it. Only a Rinnegan-powered Susanoo was able to shield people from it, something that surprised even Black Zetsu.

      But there isn't any shadow inside the Truth-Seeking Orb, it's complete darkness just like underneath the Susanoo. Or else why would Obito cast Mugen Tsukuyomi knowing his own existence is under risk?

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    • Honestly this entire thread is a mess.

      As far as I'm concerned, Obito survived the Mugen Tsukoyomi because black zetsu was attached to Obito for the duration of the genjutsu being cast by Madara. Now that such an absurd argument that was literally baseless is over, I'll be talking about the main thread.

      This fight is going on in Kaguya's root dimension, in which it's stated by Black Zetsu that she can regenerate chakra faster and also regenerate herself faster.

      Naruto being merged with Shima/Fukasaku and having access to sage mode doesn't do anything, because Naruto already has SPSM, which is instantly better than base sage mode. I'll be honest, Naruto summoning Myoboku toads isn't gonna do much for him in this fight, nor are Kunai, Fuma Shuriken etc. His truth seeking orbs will help. Naruto only has the Six Paths Yang power, so he unfortunately can't seal away Kaguya using Six Paths — Chibaku Tensei. Interestingly enough, the wiki doesn't say anything about needing Rinnegan to perform this Jutsu (classification lists nothing about it being a kekkei genkai, only needing the two six paths yin/yang halves and SPSM).

      If (and a big if) Naruto had both the Six Paths Yin and Six Paths Yang, I've got no doubt he could beat Kaguya, since it would literally just take him touching her with both of his hands and shouting "RIKUDO CHIBAKU TENSEI" then falling down. However, since she's in her root dimension, so she can heal faster etc, and is already basically immortal, only ever being able to be defeated using a sealing jutsu - something Naruto knows none of (excluding Torii Seal, which Naruto can't actually use on Kaguya because of the nature of the seal) - Kaguya would win. Realistically she'll outlast Naruto in pretty much every case, and in lots she can just use something like all Killing Ash Bones.

      Kaguya wins mid difficulty if Naruto has no Six Paths Chibaku Tensei. Naruto wins very high difficulty if he has Six Paths Chibaku Tensei.

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    • Barrygold wrote: Honestly this entire thread is a mess.

      As far as I'm concerned, Obito survived the Mugen Tsukoyomi because black zetsu was attached to Obito for the duration of the genjutsu being cast by Madara. Now that such an absurd argument that was literally baseless is over, I'll be talking about the main thread.

      This fight is going on in Kaguya's root dimension, in which it's stated by Black Zetsu that she can regenerate chakra faster and also regenerate herself faster.

      Naruto being merged with Shima/Fukasaku and having access to sage mode doesn't do anything, because Naruto already has SPSM, which is instantly better than base sage mode. I'll be honest, Naruto summoning Myoboku toads isn't gonna do much for him in this fight, nor are Kunai, Fuma Shuriken etc. His truth seeking orbs will help. Naruto only has the Six Paths Yang power, so he unfortunately can't seal away Kaguya using Six Paths — Chibaku Tensei. Interestingly enough, the wiki doesn't say anything about needing Rinnegan to perform this Jutsu (classification lists nothing about it being a kekkei genkai, only needing the two six paths yin/yang halves and SPSM).

      If (and a big if) Naruto had both the Six Paths Yin and Six Paths Yang, I've got no doubt he could beat Kaguya, since it would literally just take him touching her with both of his hands and shouting "RIKUDO CHIBAKU TENSEI" then falling down. However, since she's in her root dimension, so she can heal faster etc, and is already basically immortal, only ever being able to be defeated using a sealing jutsu - something Naruto knows none of (excluding Torii Seal, which Naruto can't actually use on Kaguya because of the nature of the seal) - Kaguya would win. Realistically she'll outlast Naruto in pretty much every case, and in lots she can just use something like all Killing Ash Bones.

      Kaguya wins mid difficulty if Naruto has no Six Paths Chibaku Tensei. Naruto wins very high difficulty if he has Six Paths Chibaku Tensei.

      I respect your opinion.

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    • JohnCenaNation wrote:

      Soloking itachi15 wrote:

      JohnCenaNation wrote:

      JOA20 wrote:

      JohnCenaNation wrote: Actually, you do need the moon to cast Mugen Tsukuyomi as shown by both Kaguya and Madara. Rinne Sharingan isn't enough.

      Kaguya used the moon only in the anime, in the manga it's unknown how she cast IT. As I see it, the moon is required only to cast IT on a global scale, while eye contact is enough to use it on individuals. There was no moon in Kaguya's time, how could she cast IT without it? The anime did a very poor filler of Kaguya's backstory, I'd rather forget about it.

      To cast a genjutsu of this scale, the user's Rinne Sharingan must be reflected off of the moon.

      Sorry pal, but that's not how the jutsu works.

      Only for a single individual the rinnesharingan is enough. The moon is a reflector, it reflects the rinnesharingan and cast the mugen tsukyoumi on the planet.You don't need the damn moon just to put a individual in mugen tsukyoumi. If Naruto left the battlefield and tried to gain distance ,then kaguya can launch the mugen tsukyoumi from the moon and capture him at any part of the planet.

      Yes, you need the damn moon dumbass, it was stated in the fricking manga by Madara, Kaguya even had to summon a moon from her dimension to use Mugen Tsukuyomi as well, unless you can provide me evidence where you can use Mugen Tsukuyomi without the damn moon, you can shut up with your headcanon.

      The moon acts as a reflector you retard, it's reflects the rinnesharingan and allows the light to cover the entire planet. The money does not create the genjutsu, the rinnesharingan does. The moon makes the jutsu planet level in size. In the manga ,she didn't have a moon so she simultaneously used her Byakugan and rinnesharingan to cover the entire planet. Madara could not do the same as he had no Byakugan,so the only way he could do it was off the moon. Just to ko Naruto she doesn't need the moon. If Naruto runs from the battlefield then she can launch it from the moon. Worst case kaguya's home dimension was shown to have a moon, if she can't trap him directly via her rinnesharingan.

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    • The moon acts as a reflector you retard, it's reflects the rinnesharingan and allows the light to cover the entire planet. The money does not create the genjutsu, the rinnesharingan does. The moon makes the jutsu planet level in size. In the manga ,she didn't have a moon so she simultaneously used her Byakugan and rinnesharingan to cover the entire planet. Madara could not do the same as he had no Byakugan,so the only way he could do it was off the moon. Just to ko Naruto she doesn't need the moon. If Naruto runs from the battlefield then she can launch it from the moon. Worst case kaguya's home dimension was shown to have a moon, if she can't trap him directly via her rinnesharingan.

      How do you know in the manga, she didn't had the moon? I love of how everyone is pretending they are the mangaka or something when they are so desperate. That's a headcanon once again. Both the manga statement and the Naruto Wiki stated that you need the moon. Not that it would even matter since Naruto wouldn't even give her the chance to do so. Also I would like to know something, why would Kaguya be afraid of Momoshiki even though Immortal. Cause if she is truly immortal, she could have easily wasted them since she couldn't die. Maybe there are ways to kill her.

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    • There was no moon during kaguya's time, the moon was formed after hagomoro and hamura sealed her. If you have any proof that during kaguya's time there was a moon, present it. Looking at hagomoro's belief that kaguya could increase her range of genjutsu via Byakugan, chances are she could have launched it using her Byakugan. Anyway that doesn't change the mechanism of the jutsu, the moon reflects the rinnesharingan, the IT was meant for the entire planet, no one cared in using it for a single person, but that doesn't mean it can't be.


      Even if you are really adamant that a moon has to be present, then kaguya can use amenominaka to teleport close to the moon( kaguya's dimension had a moon) and then launch it. Naruto can't go faster than teleportation. It doesn't matter if kaguya was afraid of momoshiki, looking at the feats and power of both, kaguya will own momoshiki. Momoshiki was slapped across the face and chest with boruto's rasengan while kaguya was tanking the susanoo and tbbs. Kaguya will only be beaten by SPCT, and Naruto does not have the rinnegan or yin tang seal so it's pointless. Naruto won't win.

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    • Soloking itachi15 wrote: There was no moon during kaguya's time, the moon was formed after hagomoro and hamura sealed her. If you have any proof that during kaguya's time there was a moon, present it. Looking at hagomoro's belief that kaguya could increase her range of genjutsu via Byakugan, chances are she could have launched it using her Byakugan. Anyway that doesn't change the mechanism of the jutsu, the moon reflects the rinnesharingan, the IT was meant for the entire planet, no one cared in using it for a single person, but that doesn't mean it can't be.


      Even if you are really adamant that a moon has to be present, then kaguya can use amenominaka to teleport close to the moon( kaguya's dimension had a moon) and then launch it. Naruto can't go faster than teleportation. It doesn't matter if kaguya was afraid of momoshiki, looking at the feats and power of both, kaguya will own momoshiki. Momoshiki was slapped across the face and chest with boruto's rasengan while kaguya was tanking the susanoo and tbbs. Kaguya will only be beaten by SPCT, and Naruto does not have the rinnegan or yin tang seal so it's pointless. Naruto won't win.

      She used the moon from her dimension to cast the Mugen Tsukuyomi you dumb fuck, obviously you wouldn't care when you keep on spouting nonsense it's filler even though it's canon. Fun fact is, you still haven't proved me that you can use Mugen Tsukuyomi without the moon, so I declare you considered defeated. Byakugan =/= Sharingan, Byakugan doesn't allow you to Genjutsu, it never was stated. Now I know you are just trying hard to troll.

      This shit again? Oh come on. I thought the Kaguya wank has ended already. Momoshiki outright stated that Kaguya is no match for him. Kaguya even went as far as turning the entire world population into White Zetsu and killing her own sons to fight off both Momoshiki and Kinshiki. Kaguya couldn't even beat Teen Naruto and Teen Sasuke without Black Zetsu ordering her around like a puppet who didn't even had full understanding of their power at the time. Momoshiki on the other hand fought against an Adult Naruto and Adult Sasuke who has more powerful than their teen counterparts and better understanding of their powers. Unlike Kaguya who only ate one chakra fruit, Momoshiki and Kinshiki ate an entire world population of chakra fruit causing a planet to die. Are we gonna ignore the fact of how Kaguya was injured by Kakashi's raikiri? Adult Sasuke was prepared to fight off a threat that is greater than Kaguya by himself. Oh by the way, the person that killed Momoshiki has what the greatest seal from the Otsutsuki Clan that might allow him to surpass both Naruto and Sasuke if mastered and used properly.

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    • Alright my bad, I genuinely didn't notice kaguya opening that portal to shine the IT over the moon. It was stupid of me, but it was a filler episode and that cutscene was quite small, so I kinda missed it. Filler episodes are not canon, though here I guess u can consider it.

      Now, Naruto has no counter for IT. Kaguya can use the moon present in her dimension ( where the fight is going on) or can use it as she did before. Before u say Naruto will expect this and counter, how can he, she has amenominaka to teleport out his range and if she executes IT, he does not have a rinnegan to protect himself. IT light can penetrate anything except sasuke's susanoo. Kaguya's dimension wiping expansive truth seeking orbs can destroy Naruto too, he never showed this level durability nor can he teleport dimension.

      Lol base momoshiki can beat kaguya ?, base Momo was being pressured by two kages and later cornered by sasuke. He literally absorbed kinshiki to beat them. Except increasing the power of a jutsu and showing it back, what else can he do ? Kaguya has much better abilities and not mention better durability. Even fused momoshiki would go down against kaguya. Kaguya couldn't beat teen Naruto and Sasuke, she was owning them, obviously the show is called naruto and they couldn't show Naruto losing can they. Lol momoshiki ate planet level chakra fruit and was gasping after he did that shinra tensei ? Had a Byakugan but couldn't see that shuriken coming out of the ground ? After his lava golem was destroyed he had to wait for some to give him more juice. Kaguya being injured by kakashi raikiri, he had six path chakra given to him by obito, lol that's why he could hurt her, and momoshiki was slapped across the face with a rasengan, which could only carve a hole in a tree. Lol you are just riding the hype train, with momoshiki being a greater threat than kaguya. Kaguya could erase dimension containing a planet and a moon. Momoshiki got erased by a rasengan which kaguya will easily absorb.

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    • Soloking itachi15 wrote: Alright my bad, I genuinely didn't notice kaguya opening that portal to shine the IT over the moon. It was stupid of me, but it was a filler episode and that cutscene was quite small, so I kinda missed it. Filler episodes are not canon, though here I guess u can consider it.

      Now, Naruto has no counter for IT. Kaguya can use the moon present in her dimension ( where the fight is going on) or can use it as she did before. Before u say Naruto will expect this and counter, how can he, she has amenominaka to teleport out his range and if she executes IT, he does not have a rinnegan to protect himself. IT light can penetrate anything except sasuke's susanoo. Kaguya's dimension wiping expansive truth seeking orbs can destroy Naruto too, he never showed this level durability nor can he teleport dimension.

      Lol base momoshiki can beat kaguya ?, base Momo was being pressured by two kages and later cornered by sasuke. He literally absorbed kinshiki to beat them. Except increasing the power of a jutsu and showing it back, what else can he do ? Kaguya has much better abilities and not mention better durability. Even fused momoshiki would go down against kaguya. Kaguya couldn't beat teen Naruto and Sasuke, she was owning them, obviously the show is called naruto and they couldn't show Naruto losing can they. Lol momoshiki ate planet level chakra fruit and was gasping after he did that shinra tensei ? Had a Byakugan but couldn't see that shuriken coming out of the ground ? After his lava golem was destroyed he had to wait for some to give him more juice. Kaguya being injured by kakashi raikiri, he had six path chakra given to him by obito, lol that's why he could hurt her, and momoshiki was slapped across the face with a rasengan, which could only carve a hole in a tree. Lol you are just riding the hype train, with momoshiki being a greater threat than kaguya. Kaguya could erase dimension containing a planet and a moon. Momoshiki got erased by a rasengan which kaguya will easily absorb.

      Sorry pal that's an outlier, Kaguya can't destroy all her dimensions with the Expansive Truth Seeking Orb, and nothing supports the argument that she could other than the databook which isn't reliable. Also why would she wants to kill everyone is she wants to absorbs everyone's chakra? Again outlier. The only thing that comes to highest attack potency in Naruto is Momoshiki destroying a Star in the novel, that's it.

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    • I don't see what there is to debate. Kaguya one shots with her gravity dimension/Ash killing bone.

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    • XShadyShadow wrote: I don't see what there is to debate. Kaguya one shots with her gravity dimension/Ash killing bone.

      Holy crap, you just bumped an old thread that I was trying to avoid for shitposting. Also no, Kaguya can't one-shot Naruto, she tried that before and failed miserably.

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