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  • AsianReaper
    AsianReaper closed this thread because:
    Thread is way too long. Make a new thread if you wanna further discuss
    20:53, October 7, 2018

    There are many misconceptions regarding this mode. I’ll be addressing at least one of them in this thread. Let’s jump right in.

    Claim: ‘There is no mention of biju chakra in the rsm databook page’

    Ok first I’ll say this: The databook is meant to be used as a point of reference. It’s pages pack plenty of information and the images on those pages provide vital context to what’s being explained. Furthermore, the image descriptions clarifies what exactly is being depicted and establishes the image’ relevance to the page itself.


    That said, let’s look at the Rsm Databook Page, specifically the image highlighted in blue.[1] At first glance, the picture just shows Naruto kicking the TSO away from guy. Now for many people, that’s all they need to see to reach the conclusion that this image depicts naruto using rsm. But that’s WRONG, and here’s why.


    That conclusion disregards the image’ description entirely, and prioritizes a personal one instead. Substituting one’s own interpretation of an image is not how to gain the appropriate context. This only leads to guessing the meaning behind the image. Which in turn leads to a compromised understanding of the databook page itself.


    The good news is databook doesn’t just paste some random text and slap random images next to it and tell you to guess it’s importance. Instead, it provides all the necessary information for you. Adhering to the PROVIDED DESCRIPTION is not only more credible, but makes for better comprehension and understanding of both the image and the databook page.


    So let’s be clear, here’s what the image description states highlighted in green:[2] ‘Kicking the "Truth-Seeking Ball"! Exceeding the Kurama Mode, a feat accomplished by a huge chakra.’

    Ok so based on the PROVIDED DESCRIPTION we know that the image is showing Naruto kicking a TSO and uses a chakra greater than half of kurama alone to do so. What does this mean?


    Well for one, the claim that ‘there is no mention of biju chakra being involved with rsm’(or anything similar enough to that) just got debunked. The actual description states the kick required chakra greater than what Naruto uses for kcm, which at that point was half of kurama.[3]


    Secondly, we know that during the war Naruto did have more chakra than just half kurama, as he also had chakra fragments from the remaining 8 biju inside him.[4] Now admittedly those fragments are significantly smaller when compared to an entire half of kurama, but as obito put it ‘they aren’t lacking in power.’[5]


    Ok so Naruto had chakra from each biju, what’s the big deal?

    Well having those 9 chakras and then mixing them results the juubi’ chakra, aka rikudo senjutsu.[6] It’s why akatsuki were on missions to capture the jinchuriki.[7]


    They were after each biju, specifically their power/chakra. When chakra from each biju mixes, you create a greater power. That power is the juubi’ own chakra, also called rikudo senjutsu. It’s the exact power both obito and madara gained after sealing each biju(or their fragmented power) inside of the gedo statue and then into themselves.[8] This is what Naruto was capable achieving when he uses their chakra together.


    Ok, so Naruto’ massive chakra was the collective 9 biju chakra, which he could use to make rikudo senjutsu by mixing all 9 together. Still, why have this on the rsm databook page? Why is it so important and how does it pertain to rsm?

    That answer is simple. Just like a sage has to be gather senjutsu before entering sage mode, Naruto by mixing those 9 biju chakras recreates and ‘gathers’ rikudo senjutsu. He uses this amount of recreated juubi chakra to enter rsm.


    The proof of this is in the manga, which is where we learn that prior to receiving rsm from hagoromo, Naruto met the right conditions and gained chakra from each biju. The same chakra which allowed him to kick the TSO.[9]


    Prior to entering rsm, Naruto’ power starts gradually rising. Madara noticed this along with feats done by Naruto that isn’t possible with only half kurama and the pieces of one and eight tails obito took from him. Dodging limbo, using lava rasenshuriken, this wasn’t just those three chakra in play, this was Naruto gaining new power as he tapped into all 9 biju chakra, one through nine tails.[10]


    Naruto’ power continues to rise then he enters rsm. At that point Madara knew what naruto’ increasing power was. He knew because once it fully manifested, he realized that same power he had himself(without the sage mode). Naruto had been producing and increasing his level of rikudo senjutsu.[11]Naruto had all the hallmarks of rikudo senjutsu when he activated his rsm. Once he produced enough of it, he started sporting a rinnegan and 9 tomoe on his back along with 9 TSOs floating behind him. This is depicted many times throughout the arc.


    Counters:

    1. That greater chakra that Naruto used to kick the TSO was his half of hagoromo’ chakra.

    2. Naruto was flying in the last and flew twice in boruto. Once to catch a train and again to save Sasuke from momoshiki’ attack.

    3. Naruto adds kcm cloak to his rsm.

    4. Naruto was in rsm when he saved guy, his eyes prove that.


    Rebuttals:

    1. If that were true, there’d be no reason for hokage Naruto to use a form other than rsm. Episode 65 of boruto anime proves he(and presumably Sasuke) still has rikudo chakra.[12] What he lacks is juubi’ chakra, not Hagoromo’.


    2. Naruto can only fly in rsm, neither of those instances depict flight. If you believe it did, then you must also believe Naruto could fly before he even met with hagoromo.[13]


    3. There is no evidence to support this notion, including a lack of mention in the 4th databook. Whereas The Last guidebook makes it clear that Naruto can used kurama and sage mode together:[14] ‘Kurama Chakra Mode Naruto exhibits overwhelming power when borrowing massive amounts of chakra from Kurama, who is sealed within him. Furthermore, when used in conjunction with “sennin mode,” it drastically increases his sensory ability and the power of the ninjutsu he employs…!! Caption for Naruto in Kurama chakra mode: The Shishou Fuuin becomes visible, and his chakra overflows like flames. Before: In the height of the Fourth Great Ninja War, he and his long-time enemy Kurama to fight a common battle…!!’

    Meaning guides can and do establish when multiple modes are used, but that’s not the case for rsm. It is a single mode.


    4. Ok this another popular misconception. There is absolutely no evidence that Naruto’ eyes has relevance to rsm. It wasn’t mentioned in the databook, nor did the manga acknowledge his eyes. Whereas I can point to a specific panel in the manga that establishes when Naruto’ eyes are indicative of his forms.[15] Rsm has its own hallmarks and indications. As madara pointed out, the hallmark for rsm is the awakening of rikudo senjutsu. It has nothing to do with his eyes.


    In conclusion, rsm is form given to Naruto by hagoromo. Just like when he kicked madara’ TSO, entering this form is possible when Naruto has a chakra greater than kurama’. The only tailed beast chakra greater than kurama is the juubi’, which is called rikudo senjutsu. Naruto both produced and used this juubi chakra to enter rsm. That’s the significance and relevance of this image, and that’s why it’s included on the databook page for rsm(and other sources).


    S.N. It’s important to note that this thread is not saying he acquired the mode itself from the juubi. We know from reading the same databook page that he got the form from hagoromo. The post is regarding the repeated claim and misconception of biju chakra not being involved or required for Naruto to enter rsm. I’ll restate: this is about entering rsm, not acquiring it. I know that thought will enter the minds of some while reading this, so please keep all responses relevant to entering rsm.

    Thanks for reading.

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    • So...what's exactly the point you are trying to get across?

      First of all, Six Paths Sage Mode is not the same as Six Paths Senjutsu. Naruto, Obito and Madara all acquired six paths senjutsu, but only Naruto had six paths sage mode of the 3.

      He acquired Six Paths Senjutsu after he had chakra from each bijuu, and he acquired Six Paths Sage Mode because of Hagoromo.

      In The Last he used KSM.

      Against Momoshiki he used SPSM.

      Also SPSM has nothing to do with the cloak.Some people claim that Naruto's cloak that he used against Madara/Kaguya was a combination of all bijuu chakra, which is quite honestly both ridiculous and unproven.The chakra cloak was ALWAYS because of Kurama, and that's it.

      Also Naruto's chakra cloak had a numerous of different designs. Taking into account SPSM, he has a different design in the 4th war, he has a different design in the Gaiden and Boruto anime, he has a different design in Boruto manga. Same for KSM. Naruto has a different design in the 4th war and a different design in the The Last.

      It's clear that they are very inconsistent with the cloak design, regardless of the mode he uses.

      Also, because you subliminally claimed it, Naruto still has parts of all the bijuu chakra.

      Hagoromo clearly stated that Naruto has chakra of all bijuu and it was because of Naruto's bijuu chakra that Infinite Tsukuyomi was broken. And since Naruto was completely out of chakra after his battle with Sasuke, yet he still broke Infinite Tsukuyomi, it's clear that the 8 bijuu chakra regenerates inside of him. The chakra is sealed inside of him, just like he had only 50% of Kurama's chakra sealed inside of him. He has 8 % of Shukaku, 4% of Matatabi ETC. I mean the fact that he broke Infinite Tsukuyomi is the best possible proof that he still has the bijuu chakra. It's canon, it's there.

      And what people fail to understand is that besides Kurama, Naruto always had just mere slivers of the other bijuu's chakra. He has the amount of the other 8 bijuu chakra as Hokage as he did in the 4th war. He only ever had small parts, not the entire bijuus inside of him. The only thing that has changed is the fact Naruto got the other half of nine tails as well.

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    • Vladosaurus wrote: Some people claim that Naruto's cloak that he used against Madara/Kaguya was a combination of all bijuu chakra, which is quite honestly both ridiculous and unproven.The chakra cloak was ALWAYS because of Kurama, and that's it.

      The cloak design against Kaguya is completely unlike any other design, so i think there's some logic to that idea. Later designs ditch the Coffin Seal design on the back, and Naruto never uses the Biju powers again, implying that at least something changed.

      Vladosaurus wrote:

      Also Naruto's chakra cloak had a numerous of different designs.

      Most designs have had notable similarities. The Kaguya-era cloak is an exception among the designs.

      Vladosaurus wrote:

      Naruto still has parts of all the bijuu chakra.

      When he got some from the Biju (IE fighting against Obito), he couldn't use any of it. When he got chakra from Hagoromo, all biju suddenly appeared as well in full form and he could use that power. But later the Biju never appear again in any way. Implying that the chakra levels dropped to non-usable levels.

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    • @vladosaurus

      I agreed up until you said Naruto used rsm against Momoshiki. There’s nothing to support that. Rsm requires rikudo senjutsu, just like all sage mode require their respective senjutsu.

      You then said rsm has nothing to do with a cloak, unfortunately that also isn’t supported. Naruto’ rsm cloak isn’t to be mistaken for a kurama cloak. Look at Naruto in 4th databook, then look at Naruto in the last guide book. They look different, and if you read both pages you understand that they also have different powers. 4th databook says Naruto needed a chakra larger than kurama, the last guidebook says Naruto only used kurama mode and sage mode.

      You no longer have to guess. That is the difference between his forms. Whenever Naruto uses kurama mode(and it’s variants) he will always resemble the design of the last. When there’s juubi’ chakra involved he looks different and like that of rsm depicted in 4th databook.

      You can also use minato’ kyuubi chakra mode as a point of reference. As he’s only ever been the jinchuriki of kurama. If Naruto’ chakra cloak resembles minato’ own they are using the same power, kurama. So the difference is clear as day, that difference being rikudo senjutsu.

      Furthermore, Kurama admitted his power alone isnt enough to produce juubi’ chakra. Which was affirmed by the databook when it mentions Naruto’ kick. Point here is Naruto waited until enough juubi chakra was produced for him to enter rsm.

      Claiming he can enter rsm with just kurama is contradicting the manga and databook.

      I didn’t subliminally claim anything. Naruto has lost his juubi chakra, he also lost the 8 biju fragments needed to produce that juubi chakra. In a boruto episode Gaara was contacted by shukaku, which is important to note because Gaara admitted to not having shukaku inside him. Shukaku then confirmed that his connection to Gaara is the same that he has with Naruto. This confirms Naruto not having any remaining chakra from those 8 fragments. In fact the last time Naruto used all 9 biju chakra at once was to undo infinite tsukuyomi. This cane after his final fight with Sasuke. Outside of reentering rsm, there’s no evidence that Naruto used any of the 8 fragments during the fight. It was kurama that said he ran out of chakra, not the other 8. So Naruto had some amount from them remaining, which proved enough to undo the genjutsu.

      Time passes and we get to shikamaru’ novel. The events in this novel lead up to the last movie according to the official timeline. In the novel those 8 fragments are called vestiges. After looking up the definition of the word, it most basically means unusable. But as I said shukaku’ conversation with Gaara confirms that the fragments are nonexistent inside Naruto. He uses those fragments and combines their power with kurama to produce rikudo senjutsu. This allows him to enter rsm as we saw during the 4th war.

      Also those 8 fragments aren’t able to regenerate, because they are amounts of chakra, not actual biju. The same way Minato sealed fragments of kushina and his own chakra inside Naruto, those fragments can’t be replenished. The same way Naruto handed out kurama chakra cloaks to the alliance during the war. All those people were unable to replenish their fragments of kurama chakra themselves, they required the source of that chakra, which was Naruto, to share more for those fragments to return to its normal levels.

      So no, those 8 fragments can’t replenish, not until the actual biju them selves send more chakra to Naruto, or another transfer like what obito did for Naruto happens. Also Naruto last use of those fragments was over 17 years ago, and shortly afterwards those fragments turned into vestiges. He doesn’t use them anymore, he only has and uses kurama. Which is evident given his conversation on the biju psyche plane during his time as hokage.


      S.N. I can’t confirm those percentages you mentioned or the 8 fragments, so I’m curious as to how you landed on those figures.

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    • Except that Gaara did have some Shukaku chakra left in him, and this was proven when Urashiki stole it from Gaara. Also Shukaku literally mentionrd that he still feel the connection with Naruto in his conversation with Gaara. So Naruto still has the chakra.

      Furthermore, what you say quite frankly makes no sense. Naruto and Sasuke were almost dead after their battle. They were literally having a conversation in purgatory and get you claim that Naruto still had bijuu chakra left? So he is half dead but he still has bijuu chakra unused? That makes no sense whatsoever. And the chakra didn’t dissapear forever after Naruto undid infinite tsukuyomi. That also makes 0 sense. He just undid a jutsu. What, when Naruto cancels out a shadow clone or a rasengan he losed that chakra forever? Even.Kurama was surprised to know how easy infinite tsukuyomi can be undone. Also Hagoromo mentioned that Naruto has parts of the bijuu chakra knowing that he needs the bijuu chakra to stop infinite tsukuyomi, so chakra clearly isn’t wasted there.

      Also, if Naruto wasn’t using SPSM against Momoshiki, what was he using? Enlight me, please...

      Also give me a break, Naruto’s current cloak also doesn’t resemble any of his other cloak designs as well.

      Those percentages i gave were only so i can get a point across. And by the way, Naruto also had only 50% of Kurama. So going by your logic, once Kurama ran out of chakra inside Naruto he also shouldn’t have regenerated back. Yet he clearly did. So what’s the difference is Naruto has 50% of Kurama or 4% (random percent) of Shukaku let’s say? In either case he doesn’t have a full bijuu. It’s the same concept. The thing is that there is a HUGE difference between giving chakra IE what naruto did to the alliance amd having chakra sealed inside of you IE what Obito and Minato did to Naruto with the bijuu chakra.

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    • Vladosaurus wrote: Furthermore, what you say quite frankly makes no sense.

      Also, if Naruto wasn’t using SPSM against Momoshiki, what was he using? Enlight me, please...

      Also give me a break, Naruto’s current cloak also doesn’t resemble any of his other cloak designs as well.

      Those percentages i gave were only so i can get a point across. And by the way, Naruto also had only 50% of Kurama. So going by your logic, once Kurama ran out of chakra inside Naruto he also shouldn’t have regenerated back. Yet he clearly did. So what’s the difference is Naruto has 50% of Kurama or 4% (random percent) of Shukaku let’s say? In either case he doesn’t have a full bijuu. It’s the same concept. The thing is that there is a HUGE difference between giving chakra IE what naruto did to the alliance amd having chakra sealed inside of you IE what Obito and Minato did to Naruto with the bijuu chakra.


      Unfortunately that taken chakra wasn’t shukaku’. Even when urashiki used that same chakra back against them during the invasion, it was called gaara’ chakra. Plus it had no sealing properties like shukaku’ chakra does. That wasn’t biju chakra, and that means their psychic connection also doesn’t require biju chakra. This is the same connection naruto has with the biju.

      What I’m saying not only makes sense, it’s also heavily supported. Chakra fragments don’t replenished once used up, and those 8 biju chakras were used.


      Naruto’ Use of Biju Chakra Post Hagoromo Meeting:

      •Kicked Madara’ Tso

      •Dodged limbo

      •Lava rasenshuriken

      •Awakens rikudo senjutsu

      •enters rsm

      •Magnet rasenshuriken

      •Biju bomb rasenshuriken (x7 minimum)

      •Countering Eighty gods vacuum attack (chapter 680)

      •Getting drained by kaguya(chapter681)

      •Super biju rasenshuriken(+1 from each biju)

      •rikudo catastrophic planetary construction(sealing kaguya)

      •Reawakens rikudo senjutsu

      •reenters rsm

      •Amped biju bomb(x4)

      •Indra arrow clash

      •Tanks Amaterasu

      •Drained by Sasuke

      •Clash of jutsu causing them to lose an arm

      •Released Infinite Tsukuyomi


      As I said, they were put to work and after undoing IT, were never used again by Naruto.

      Sure they were almost dead, that doesn’t negate those 8 fragments being present. It only proves how small those fragments were. Did you forget that the same thing happened just hours ago when madara extracted Naruto’ half of kurama. He was dying then too, and inside Naruto then too was still multiple biju fragments, but it took obito replacing Naruto’ missing half of kurama with minato’ half to save his life. Again the conclusion from these events is that his former fragments were too small to sustain his life. He did have those fragments in VOTE2 and he exhausted them to undo the genjutsu that ensnared the populace.

      Also the difference between kurmaa being inside Naruto compared to when other 8 were is that kurama himself is actually there. Those 8 biju weren’t actually inside Naruto, their chakra was. The actual year biju returned to their natural homes with the exception of gyuki who stayed with killer bee. I gave you the example of Minato and kushina’ chakra inside Naruto already. It’s the exact same principle with the 8 fragments.

      About hagoromo calling Naruto the meeting place, yes he did call him that but hagromo had no part in making Naruto the meeting place. His exact words is ‘Naruto already has’, meaning he wasn’t involved in making that happen. In fact it was obito who recognized which fragments Naruto had and gave him the ones he was missing so that he’d have from all 9. I repeat Naruto was only called the meeting place, but he was already that before the label was given to him. More importantly, hagromo said that THEN YEARS HAD PASSED and those fragments became vestiges. They went from useable to unusable. This is confirmed in shikamaru’ novel.

      Now against Momoshiki, Naruto used kurama mode with sage mode, as he’s always done since the last. You can easily tell because Naruto didn’t produce and rikudo senjutsu, there’s no TSOs his back doesn’t resemble rsm either, but rather kcm Naruto and Minato backs. There’s no more guessing when it comes to his forms, as I gave you the information needed to discern the difference.

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    • So what youre telling me, is naruto so far in boruto has only used BSM mode? as the true indicatior is the rinnegan and 9 magatama marking on his back + TSO?

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    • Kirito975 wrote: So what youre telling me, is naruto so far in boruto has only used BSM mode? as the true indicatior is the rinnegan and 9 magatama marking on his back + TSO?


      Correct

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    • Naruto quite clearly isn't using KSM against Momoshiki. Regardless of your impression, KSM's toad pigmentation are quite large rings around Naruto's eyes. Against Momsohiki he had no pigmentations. Look at Naruto's chakra cloak from the Last and Naruto's chakra cloak against Momoshiki.There is a huge difference.Saying that Naruto used KSM against Momoshiki is like saying that he used KSM when he kicked the TSO and hit Madara with the lava style rasenshuriken. It's funny that you make a fuss about the chakra cloak (despite the fact that as Hokage his cloak still resembles 4th war RSM more tham KSM) but you think that is OK the fact that Naruto has no pigmentation around his eyes against Momoshiki.So funny...

      Naruto's TSO were destroyed in his battle against Sasuke. TSO don't regenerate. Even at the beginning of his battle with Sasuke he only had a couple left.

      Also the novels aren't canon. And regardless, dude, you are contradicting yourself."Vestiges" as you say means: "a trace or remnant of something that is disappearing or no longer exists".It's pretty damn clear that whoever made the translation he meant to use "Vestiges" with the meaning of slivers, small pieces.Vestiges is usually used for things that are at least hundreds of years old. Naruto always only had very small pieces of the 8 bijuu chakra. He always only had mere slivers, VESTIGES as you say. So the chakra is still there.

      Also no, Naruto was never the meeting place before receiving the bijuu chakra. Hagoromo specifically said that since he has all the chakra he is a meating place. Don't even try contradicting the canon. when Naruto first meet the 7 bijuu, it was because Naruto was indirectly in contact with them. If you recall, Naruto was pulling the rinnegan rods from each bijuu when he had that first meating with them. Same thing happened when he first met Son Goku. It was because of Naruto's direct contact with them. Hagoromo meant that since Naruto has all the chakra, the bijuu always can communicate with each other inside him, regardless of how far away they are. In the war Naruto was in direct contact with each of them, as in physical contact. This is not required anymore.

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    • @Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki: Kicking the TSB was said to require great chakra. Having recieved half of Hagoromo's chakra, Naruto got a significant boost in chakra, especially since it was 6 Paths Chakra. Even Sasuke became strong enough to take 1 Rinnegan-Shinjuu-Juubidara. Even with your explaination, it still doesnt say that the Bijuu chakra is part of SPSM. Even the Databook says he recieved the mode from Hagoromo, not the Bijuu.


      @vlad:the markings of KCM cloak has differed at different points in the series but it has always been a gold and black cloak that covers Naruto head to toe. The SPSM Chakra cloak didnt cover his skin, so there is a fairly clear difference between SPSKCM and SPSM cloak.

      Naruto was also able to speak with the Bijuu without physical contact before recieving their chakra. Gyuki/Bee and Naruto heard Kokuo's voice and then Gyuki amd Kurama had a discussion that Bee and Naruto could hear

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    • This very site has the canon timeline where you can verify for yourself that the novels are canon.[1]

      Naruto in the last uses the same power as hokage Naruto, kurama sage mode. That isn’t speculation. That is a fact. We have seen Naruto in each of his kurama cloaks including his part 1 initial cloak.

      The notion of naruto’ eyes being in any way relevant to rsm was never supported by canon. There’s nothing in any manga or databook or statement from kishimoto confirming or at the very least suggestion that is true. It is simply speculation.

      Saying that Naruto used kurama mode and sage mode against Momoshiki is nothing but accurate. Both the databook and kurama himself said more than his own power is needed to gain the juubi’ own. That power is rikudo senjutsu. Rsm requires that power, as everytime Naruto enteres rsm, he had rikudo senjutsu. Again you can fact check this. It’s all in the manga.


      TSOs Can Replenish, and I’ll breakdown why.

      After using 3 TSO to seal one of Madara’ limbo. Naruto is seen with having 6 left.[2]

      Then he uses a TSO to make a bijudama rasenshuriken. That means there’s 5 to go before he runs out.[3]

      With more meteors falling, he spawns 7 of the same attack(Presumably, the five central ones used TSOs, while the ones on the end didn’t). Leaving him with no TSOs to spare.[4]

      In fact, as IT was casted and while Naruto was protected inside sasuke’ susanoo, he is shown yet again to not have any TSOs on stand by. Once susanoo is released, you can see TSOs returning to Naruto’ back.[5]


      This isn’t unique to Naruto either. Not only was Madara’ lower half able to generate not a whole new set of TSO,[6] [7] [8] his top half was used to make an ETSO.[9] [10] [11] All this took place after madara he no TSOs as well.[12]

      So yes, beyond any doubt TSOs can in fact replenish.


      Vestige; look at the word’ full definition. Do not selectively read. Vestige means something is missing and/or lost, from that lost item only a trace or a sign remains. What is clear here is that the vestiges is not longer usable as it once. Since we know the biju went after the war, they aren’t lost. What is lost are the fragments inside Naruto. What‘s left of those lost fragments are the psychic connections between him and them. The same connection Gaara proved he had while also not having any biju chakra. That’s what those vestiges are. They were already proven too low to sustain Naruto’ life, with time they’ve only gotten smaller until they became what they are now: vestiges. Look up examples of vestiges if you’re having difficulty understand how those fragments are being described. Egypt’s hieroglyphs are vestiges. The literal last two drop of water in a container are vestiges. They both represent something greater that was lost over time. I’m sure a google search would bring you more examples.


      The moment Naruto fist bumped goku he became the meeting place, but he didn’t use their chakra until all 9 were available. That isn’t coincidence. All 9 chakra biju chakra together bears significance. I’ve showed you that significance in the OP. He was the meeting place, it didn’t have a title, but it functioned exactly the same way.

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    • Naruto didn’t became the meating place when he fist bumped Son Goku. I have no idea what you are talking about.

      Also, you say that there was no mention of Naruto’s eyes being a trademark of RSM, but where was it stated that his cloak is a trademark? Nowhere... Moot point.

      Also, again, according to you Naruto wasn’t using RSM when e kicked the TSO away, right? So Naruto in KSM could use Son Goku’s lava release? Yeah, ok.

      And if we consider the novels canon, then i can’t wait to use the fact that Sasuke’s perfect Susanoo was matched and overwhelmed by typhoon release in future debates. Also i bet that i will find 100 different translations so the bijuu chakra passage in Shikamaru's novel.

      EDIT:

      Look what a found. What a surprise, a passage straight from Shikamaru's novel. And i quote:

      "The Nine Tails was still living inside Naruto. There were also remmants of the other 8 bijuu inside him as well. In a way, you could say he was a human pillar for the power of the Ten Tails. In the last war, Obito had become a human pillar for the Ten Tails and gained chakra rivalling that of the Sage of Six Paths. Naruto who'd taken the bijuu into him as well, had some of the Sage's power even now...."

      So not only this confirms that Naruto still has the bijuu chakra, but also directly calls him a human pillar for the power of the Ten Tails. And in every single translation Naruto is being called a human pillar for the power of the jiuubi.

      So yes, nice try, what can i say.

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    • No need to seek out translations, I have the novel. It says vestiges,[1] not remnants. You’re misquoting and misunderstanding the novel.

      Sakura asked about a singular tailed beast. Fast forward few sentences it says and in keeping the tailed beast. That’s also singular, meaning one biju, kurama. Case closed. You should now understand why Kurama is only used from the last to present day by Naruto. You should also understand that kurama alone doesn’t suffice for him to enter rsm. Moving on.

      Your second and third paragraphs lose sight of the OP, have another read.

      He did become a meeting place then. The only factual difference is how many biju were present. Unless you know of another difference outside of hagoromo titling it.

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    • Dude, just stop. We are not moving on. This passage contradicts everything you claimed so far. There are 100 translations out there, and all the translations call Naruto a human pillar for the power of the ten tails, "ten-tails jinchuuriki" ETC. It contradicts everything you claimed.It literally says that Naruto hosts the power of the Ten-tails. Ten-tails is combination of the chakra of all the tailed beats. This produces Six Paths Senjutsu. Derived from this, there is obtained RSM.

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    • Pay attention the tense of those sentences. Also you were given a definition of vestige already. Naruto only kept a single tailed beast in his body, Kurama. Does Naruto have power comparable to obito and hagoromo? Yes, that power is called rsm, but having a power and using it are different things. The novel says Naruto has that power, it doesn’t say he can use it.

      The scan I’m using is directly from viz. It’s the official source. It supercedes unofficial translation in accuracy and credibility.

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    • This is ridiculous. Of course he uses it. This makes no sense. What are talking about? He has the power but he can't use it? BS. This is something only you believe. Even in the games they have Hokage Naruto use bijuu powers.

      Just believe what you want, but don't expect people to agree with you, because at least from my point of view you make little sense.

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    • Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Naruto in the last uses the same power as hokage Naruto, kurama sage mode. That isn’t speculation. That is a fact. We have seen Naruto in each of his kurama cloaks including his part 1 initial cloak.

      That is not fact. After The Last Naruto never has the toad Sage eye pigmentation.

      No pigmentation= no Sage Mode

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      The notion of naruto’ eyes being in any way relevant to rsm was never supported by canon. There’s nothing in any manga or databook or statement from kishimoto confirming or at the very least suggestion that is true. It is simply speculation.

      Toad Sage Mode has mustard yellow eyes with horizontal pupils and orange pigmants around the eyes.

      KCM has red vertical pupils

      KSM has Orange scross shaped eyes with orange pigmants around the eyes.

      SPSM has a light yellow color with cross shaped pupils and no pigments around the eyes.

      All of these things were directly shown to the viewer on muliple occasions.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Saying that Naruto used kurama mode and sage mode against Momoshiki is nothing but accurate.

      No its not accurate. No pigmentation around the eyes=no Sage Mode

      Cross shaped pupils with no pigmentation= SPSM

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote: Both the databook and kurama himself said more than his own power is needed to gain the juubi’ own. That power is rikudo senjutsu. Rsm requires that power, as everytime Naruto enteres rsm, he had rikudo senjutsu. Again you can fact check this. It’s all in the manga.

      He used SPSM we already established this. However neither the manga nor the databook corroborate that SPSM is the result of all the Bijuu chakra put together. The databook only said that it SPSM is stronger than KCM.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Then he uses a TSO to make a bijudama rasenshuriken. That means there’s 5 to go before he runs out.[1]

      These TSB returned to him after he threw it. Using TSB's in a Rasenshuriken doesnt destroy the TSB.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      With more meteors falling, he spawns 7 of the same attack(Presumably, the five central ones used TSOs, while the ones on the end didn’t). Leaving him with no TSOs to spare.[2]

      In the manga it was 6 not 7. 7 Bijuudama Rasenshuriken was a mistake on the animators part

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      In fact, as IT was casted and while Naruto was protected inside sasuke’ susanoo, he is shown yet again to not have any TSOs on stand by. Once susanoo is released, you can see TSOs returning to Naruto’ back.[3]

      In ch 678 p12, the 6 TSB's he threw at the meteorites returned to him from off panel, he didnt generate them he had to wait for them to either come back or had to wait for Sasuke's Susanoo to dissepate before the could return to him. Even the anime shows them returning from offscreen, not being formed anew.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      This isn’t unique to Naruto either. Not only was Madara’ lower half able to generate not a whole new set of TSO,[4] [5] [6]

      Those are Hagoromo's TSB's he brought them with him from the afterlife or whatever. He is shown with them as a ghost in Naruto/Sasuke's subconscious

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      His top half was used to make an ETSO.[7] [8] [9] All this took place after madara he no TSOs as well.[10]

      So yes, beyond any doubt TSOs can in fact replenish.

      The ETSB is Kaguya's ability, not Madara's. Kaguya is they only character shown/stated to create TSB of any kind

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Vestige; look at the word’ full definition. Do not selectively read. Vestige means something is missing and/or lost, from that lost item only a trace or a sign remains. What is clear here is that the vestiges is not longer usable as it once. Since we know the biju went after the war, they aren’t lost. What is lost are the fragments inside Naruto. What‘s left of those lost fragments are the psychic connections between him and them. The same connection Gaara proved he had while also not having any biju chakra. That’s what those vestiges are. They were already proven too low to sustain Naruto’ life, with time they’ve only gotten smaller until they became what they are now: vestiges. Look up examples of vestiges if you’re having difficulty understand how those fragments are being described. Egypt’s hieroglyphs are vestiges. The literal last two drop of water in a container are vestiges. They both represent something greater that was lost over time. I’m sure a google search would bring you more examples.

      Vestige can also mean a tiny amount.

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    • Vladosaurus wrote: This is ridiculous. Of course he uses it. This makes no sense. What are talking about? He has the power but he can't use it? BS. This is something only you believe. Even in the games they have Hokage Naruto use bijuu powers.

      Just believe what you want, but don't expect people to agree with you, because at least from my point of view you make little sense.

      You are suggesting Naruto uses rsm without the juubi’ chakra, six paths senjutsu. This wrong for the simple fact that there isn’t no example of sage mode that does not require senjutsu. That includes rsm. You calling it BS isn’t a rebuttal and doesn’t disprove the thread. This isn’t some belief, this is evident if you’ve comprehended the OP.

      The games aren’t canon. We can’t just go reaching any any Naruto material for support. On the same canon timeline I showed you, there are no games there.

      Your POV isn’t supported, whereas I’m prepared with evidence for all my statements. Again this isn’t a belief, nor am I guessing. I’m only reciting canon in an understandable manner.

      LegionZero wrote: 1 That is not fact. After The Last Naruto never has the toad Sage eye pigmentation.

      No pigmentation= no Sage Mode

      Toad Sage Mode has mustard yellow eyes with horizontal pupils and orange pigmants around the eyes.

      KCM has red vertical pupils

      KSM has Orange scross shaped eyes with orange pigmants around the eyes.

      SPSM has a light yellow color with cross shaped pupils and no pigments around the eyes.

      All of these things were directly shown to the viewer on muliple occasions.

      No its not accurate. No pigmentation around the eyes=no Sage Mode

      Cross shaped pupils with no pigmentation= SPSM

      2 He used SPSM we already established this. However neither the manga nor the databook corroborate that SPSM is the result of all the Bijuu chakra put together. The databook only said that it SPSM is stronger than KCM.


      3 These TSB returned to him after he threw it. Using TSB's in a Rasenshuriken doesnt destroy the TSB.

      In the manga it was 6 not 7. 7 Bijuudama Rasenshuriken was a mistake on the animators part

      In ch 678 p12, the 6 TSB's he threw at the meteorites returned to him from off panel, he didnt generate them he had to wait for them to either come back or had to wait for Sasuke's Susanoo to dissepate before the could return to him. Even the anime shows them returning from offscreen, not being formed anew.

      Those are Hagoromo's TSB's he brought them with him from the afterlife or whatever. He is shown with them as a ghost in Naruto/Sasuke's subconscious


      The ETSB is Kaguya's ability, not Madara's. Kaguya is they only character shown/stated to create TSB of any kind

      4Vestige can also mean a tiny amount.

      1 You are holding the same visual standard of frog sage mode to rsm. That’s is a fallacy, they use different powers and have different hallmarks. Naruto face was never mentioned to be significant in any manner, that is only speculation.

      I don’t have to speculate about Naruto eyes for frog sage mode. I can point to the exact moment where manga establishes to look at his eye for proof of sagehood.[1] Similarly I can point out to you the exact moment in the manga where madara acknowledges proof of Naruto rikudo sagehood.[2] They were proven in different ways, that is fact. Attempting to prove them in the same way results in Fallacy. Manga nor databook has any mention of Naruto’ eyes being even slightly relevant to rsm. Yet against you better judgement you insist it does. Show me where it is explicitly stated that his eye have any relevance to rsm. The same way I can prove it for his other form. Just a heads up, rikudo senjutus didn’t effect Obito’ nor madara eyes, but good luck.

      2 You failed to establish that, you only made claims. Plus you also lost sight of OP with this response. You can find you answers there. The databook said rsm requires a greater chakra than half kurama. What chakra could that be if not juubi’? Why would Naruto have waited to enter rsm if it because he needed to produce juubi chakra?

      3 If you count the 3 he used to seal limbo and the 1 he used on the first meteor you’ll see he had 5 left. 9 - 3 - 1= 5 This claim that they returned to him rather form new ones falls short because they have a range. And the distance between team 7 and those meteors would exceed that range.

      Hagoromo appearance as a spirit is just that. Obito as a spirit appeared to kakashi and rin as a kid. Obito didn’t die as a kid, he died with half his body being zetsu among other things. His appearance as a spirit is a desired one. More importantly during his internal talk with Naruto, hagromo was not the juubi jinchuriki, instead during that time Obito madara and Naruto(partially) was. Those TSOs are granted by juubi chakra which hagoromo himself acknowledged he got from madara’ severed torso. A new set of TSOs were made. As for kaguya manga establishes that her TSOs is identical to the one on Naruto’ back. It only different because it expands and it significantly larger. That TSOs was produced from madara’ top half and it also used the juubi’ power.

      4 There is no evidence to support that definition. But it doesn’t matter which meaning you pick, the common denominator is that they are unusable. Which the boruto era makes very clear.

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    • Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      1 You are holding the same visual standard of frog sage mode to rsm. That’s is a fallacy, they use different powers and have different hallmarks. Naruto face was never mentioned to be significant in any manner, that is only speculation.

      Im not equating them. I was pointing out the differences and which one signifies which.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      I don’t have to speculate about Naruto eyes for frog sage mode. I can point to the exact moment where manga establishes to look at his eye for proof of sagehood.[1] Similarly I can point out to you the exact moment in the manga where madara acknowledges proof of Naruto rikudo sagehood.[2] They were proven in different ways, that is fact. Attempting to prove them in the same way results in Fallacy. Manga nor databook has any mention of Naruto’ eyes being even slightly relevant to rsm. Yet against you better judgement you insist it does. Show me where it is explicitly stated that his eye have any relevance to rsm. The same way I can prove it for his other form. Just a heads up, rikudo senjutus didn’t effect Obito’ nor madara eyes, but good luck.

      Naruto's eyes are relivent to SPSM because its the only time they ever take that color and pattern. It wasnt explicitly stated but it was explicitely shown. No other time do his eyes have that color and pattern. The databook a picture of Naruto when he kicked the TSB while in SPSM.

      Madara mentions that Naryto came back different and Naruto turns around with his new eye pattern and says that he can feel everything. Which is an attribute of SPSM

      Obito and Madara had dojutsu that that overide other eyes. They also awakened their powers through a different process.

      But please do tell when anyone had yellow, crass patterned eyes for any other reason

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      2 You failed to establish that, you only made claims. Plus you also lost sight of OP with this response. You can find you answers there. The databook said rsm requires a greater chakra than rsm. What chakra could that be if not juubi’? Why would Naruto have waited to enter rsm if it because he needed to produce juubi chakra?

      It does not say that. It says that kicking the TSB is a feat pulled off by having more chakra than KCM. Hagoromo gave him 6 Paths chakra, which provides a boost strong enough to bring Sasuke to Madara's level. This boost would apply to Naruto as well who already has more chakra than Sasuke. Then Naruto uses SPSM which has an even greater boost than regular Sage Mode.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      3 If you count the 3 he used to seal limbo and the 1 he used on the first meteor you’ll see he had 5 left. 9 - 3 - 1= 5 This claim that they returned to him rather form new ones falls short because they have a range. And the distance between team 7 and those meteors would exceed that range.

      This point is disproven when all 6 literally came back to him later on. They didnt form. They moved to him. All he would have to do is wait for them to fall back down to him because he didnt move from his spot.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Hagoromo appearance as a spirit is just that. Obito as a spirit appeared to kakashi and rin as a kid. Obito didn’t die as a kid, he died with half his body being zetsu among other things. His appearance as a spirit is a desired one.

      That is pure speculation. The only time this ever happened was with Obito. Anyone whos spirit manifested through chakra was identicle to their appearence at the time of death (Kushina, Minato, Hagoromo, Hamura).

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      More importantly during his internal talk with Naruto, hagromo was not the juubi jinchuriki, instead during that time Obito madara and Naruto(partially) was.

      That doesnt matter because its not necissary to have Juubi chakra for TSB, SPSM is. Hamura never had Juubi chakra but his own set of TSB that followed him into death as well.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Those TSOs are granted by juubi chakra which hagoromo himself acknowledged he got from madara’ severed torso. A new set of TSOs were made.

      This was never stated. Hagoromo said he could manifest because Madara recreated his chakra. It was never ever stated he got TSB by making new ones from Madara's body. They manifested because Hagoromo retained them in death. This was shown. It was also shown with Hamura

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      As for kaguya manga establishes that her TSOs is identical to the one on Naruto’ back. It only different because it expands and it significantly larger. That TSOs was produced from madara’ top half and it also used the juubi’ power.

      Kaguya has abilities that Madara didnt. Creating brand new TSB is unique to her

      Unless you are trying to say Madara had Byakugan, Ash Bone, Dimensional travel and every other one of Kaguya's powers. Which he didnt.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      4 There is no evidence to support that definition. But it doesn’t matter which meaning you pick, the common denominator is that they are unusable. Which the boruto era makes very clear.

      https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vestige

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    • I'm not understanding something. I think Vlad's first post explained everything clearly.

      1. Naruto clearly was in SPSM when he rescued guy, the change in his eye pattern is enough to show that. I'm pretty sure that's just a sage mode enhancement possible by using hagomoro's six path chakra + having all 9 bijuu within you.

      2. naruto uses lava rasenshuriken (Goku's power) in SPSM which nearly bisected madara. It makes sense he can use this because he has all the bijuu chakra , and has learned how to tap into each.

      3. Naruto activates his KCM cloak giving him BSPSM. His 6 paths senjutsu gives rise to his truthseeking orb.

      4. the only difference between naruto versus obito and madara is that naruto had SPSM, while they only had six paths senjutsu. madara wasn't a sage mode user, he only had sm through hashiboob, and obito doesn't use sage mode either. We don't know how a dojutsu user's eye pattern with sage mode would look like.

      So, what is the problem?

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    • @combat: SPSM is more than Sage Mode+9 Bijuu chakra considering characters can have it without the Bijuu chakra.

      Dojutsu overrides senjutsu eye patterns. Sasuke's Sharingan always overrided his yellow Curse Mark eyes which was a varient of Sage Transformation.

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      1 Im not equating them. I was pointing out the differences and which one signifies which.

      I gave you the manga’ established differences here:

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote: I don’t have to speculate about Naruto eyes for frog sage mode. I can point to the exact moment where manga establishes to look at his eye for proof of sagehood.[1] Similarly I can point out to you the exact moment in the manga where madara acknowledges proof of Naruto rikudo sagehood.[2] They were proven in different ways, that is fact. Attempting to prove them in the same way results in Fallacy. Manga nor databook has any mention of Naruto’ eyes being even slightly relevant to rsm. Yet against you better judgement you insist it does. Show me where it is explicitly stated that his eye have any relevance to rsm. The same way I can prove it for his other form. Just a heads up, rikudo senjutus didn’t effect Obito’ nor madara eyes, but good luck.

      LegionZero wrote: 2 Naruto's eyes are relivent to SPSM because its the only time they ever take that color and pattern. It wasnt explicitly stated but it was explicitely shown. No other time do his eyes have that color and pattern. The databook a picture of Naruto when he kicked the TSB while in SPSM.

      Madara mentions that Naryto came back different and Naruto turns around with his new eye pattern and says that he can feel everything. Which is an attribute of SPSM

      This is wrong again. You admittedly are interpreting a shown image without context, you’re guessing. I’m not. The eyes have no proven significance. On top of all that, you failed to realize that Naruto saved guy using his rikudo hand seal. That power is not part of rsm, and that’s what madara was initially reacting to. Madara even looked at guy’ 8th gate and noticed how it managed to be preserved. Again that was done by Naruto using the rikudo seal not rsm. That power relied on rikudo chakra not rikudo senjutsu, there is a clear difference. Iirc, the seals were explained on different pages in the databook.

      LegionZero wrote: Obito and Madara had dojutsu that that overide other eyes. They also awakened their powers through a different process.

      But please do tell when anyone had yellow, crass patterned eyes for any other reason

      Now you’re just speculating. For one, regardless of how you attain rikudo senjutsu/ juubi chakra, with enough of it the result will always be the same. Obito, madara, hagoromo, and kaguya each gained a significant amount juubi chakra through different methods, yet the same powers resulted from it. So you’re wrong.

      LegionZero wrote: It does not say that. It says that kicking the TSB is a feat pulled off by having more chakra than KCM. Hagoromo gave him 6 Paths chakra, which provides a boost strong enough to bring Sasuke to Madara's level. This boost would apply to Naruto as well who already has more chakra than Sasuke. Then Naruto uses SPSM which has an even greater boost than regular Sage Mode.

      You’ve restated counter 1 from the OP.

      LegionZero wrote:

      This point is disproven when all 6 literally came back to him later on. They didnt form. They moved to him. All he would have to do is wait for them to fall back down to him because he didnt move from his spot.

      So your rebuttal is that TSOs, whos natural state is to be suspended in mid air, will somehow succumb to gravity? You have to know that isn’t accurate, right? Iirc madara had to extend his hand call his last TSOs from a distance away to throw it at guy.

      LegionZero wrote: That is pure speculation. The only time this ever happened was with Obito. Anyone whos spirit manifested through chakra was identicle to their appearence at the time of death (Kushina, Minato, Hagoromo, Hamura).

      So then I guess ashura(and indra) died really young, since they were shown clinging to Naruto(and Sasuke).

      LegionZero wrote: That doesnt matter because its not necissary to have Juubi chakra for TSB, SPSM is. Hamura never had Juubi chakra but his own set of TSB that followed him into death as well.

      There’s is no way to prove you’re claim wrong nor right. I could easy make a similar claim to support my own stance. Hamura and his descendants have powers of unexplained origin. You can‘t use them here because of that uncertainty.

      LegionZero wrote:

      This was never stated. Hagoromo said he could manifest because Madara recreated his chakra. It was never ever stated he got TSB by making new ones from Madara's body. They manifested because Hagoromo retained them in death. This was shown. It was also shown with Hamura

      You missed the part where hagoromo explicitly states more than his own chakra is required for him to reenter the living world. Madara’ torso both met and exceeded those requirements.[3] Yet he was still weakened because he gave his power to Naruto and Sasuke. Which further proves that those TSO being produced were largely due to juubi chakra that he just acquired from madara. As rikudo chakra alone doesn’t produce TSOs, if that were true madara would’ve gotten it the moment he awakened rinnegan. As that was a result of achieving recreated rikudo chakra. Also edo madara would’ve gained TSOs as kabuto made him also achieve ‘fake’ rinnegan. So you’re wrong.

      LegionZero wrote: Kaguya has abilities that Madara didnt. Creating brand new TSB is unique to her

      Unless you are trying to say Madara had Byakugan, Ash Bone, Dimensional travel and every other one of Kaguya's powers. Which he didnt.

      You’re wrong again because kaguya could only be revived with the juubi’ power. She literally took over his vessel, and absorbed some chakra from infinite tsukuyomi. Not to mention she remained massively weakened because half her chakra was still missing. This is because she was revived entirely without hamura chakra, she was without more than half of her divided power during the 4th war. Yet she still produced a TSO variant. Which we know isn’t possible with chakra from the those captured by infinite tsukuyomi, but rather the juubi’ chakra.

      I’m not having an issue with the definition. The issue here is the lack of context, which is evident that you have. I’m not leaving anything to interpretation, nor does the OP operate in vagueness. No instead I’ve provided sources, and evidence to my statements. So while I do appreciate the link, that doesn’t help you gain context to further understand which definition is most fitting. This is why I suggested giving example of vestiges that are similar to that which describes the former biju fragments. Did you think of any? I gave 2 examples.

      CombatIQmatters wrote: I'm not understanding something. I think Vlad's first post explained everything clearly.

      1. Naruto clearly was in SPSM when he rescued guy, the change in his eye pattern is enough to show that. I'm pretty sure that's just a sage mode enhancement possible by using hagomoro's six path chakra + having all 9 bijuu within you.

      2. naruto uses lava rasenshuriken (Goku's power) in SPSM which nearly bisected madara. It makes sense he can use this because he has all the bijuu chakra , and has learned how to tap into each.

      3. Naruto activates his KCM cloak giving him BSPSM. His 6 paths senjutsu gives rise to his truthseeking orb.

      4. the only difference between naruto versus obito and madara is that naruto had SPSM, while they only had six paths senjutsu. madara wasn't a sage mode user, he only had sm through hashiboob, and obito doesn't use sage mode either. We don't know how a dojutsu user's eye pattern with sage mode would look like.

      So, what is the problem?

      1. That wrong because anywhere that enough of the 9 biju chakra were gathered resulted in the same power, rikudo senjutsu. The hallmarks always the same. Naruto factually waited until his level of this power was large enough to enter rsm. It’s not the enhancement, it’s the requirement for rsm. His eyes were never in any way indicated to be a requirement for rsm. Madara acknowledged that rikudo senjutsu was the requirement.

      2. This was during the period where Naruto was increasing his rikudo senjutsu, since this requires all 9 biju chakra it makes sense that he’d start using them now that he has a form which requires it. Naruto had goku’ power previously, but he didn’t use it then. There was no form he had that required it.

      3. You restated counter 3, this was debunked already.

      4. You are only proving my point. Obito and madara were juubi jinchuriki that was their source of rikudo senjutsu. Well guess what, Naruto was(essentially) also a juubi jinchuriki.[4] That means his source of rikudo senjutsu was similar to theirs. Similar in that they each had gained all 9 biju chakra. Those 9 chakra were acquired each aquired without any help from hagoromo. The mode itself only works with juubi’ chakra. Which is why Naruto waited until enough was produced so he can use it. Hagromo himself acknowledge the existence of all 9 biju inside Naruto. All this was stated in the OP.

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    • Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      I gave you the manga’ established differences here:

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote: I don’t have to speculate about Naruto eyes for frog sage mode. I can point to the exact moment where manga establishes to look at his eye for proof of sagehood.[1] Similarly I can point out to you the exact moment in the manga where madara acknowledges proof of Naruto rikudo sagehood.[2] They were proven in different ways, that is fact. Attempting to prove them in the same way results in Fallacy. Manga nor databook has any mention of Naruto’ eyes being even slightly relevant to rsm. Yet against you better judgement you insist it does. Show me where it is explicitly stated that his eye have any relevance to rsm. The same way I can prove it for his other form. Just a heads up, rikudo senjutus didn’t effect Obito’ nor madara eyes, but good luck.

      Manga is a visual medium. It doesnt have to tell us everything. It communicates just as much by showing us things.

      Yellow-cross eyes have only ever appeared once Naruto obtained SPSM. I caan point out every single time this unique eye design showed up.(and they all corrospond to Naruto using SPSM)

      Just a heads up, dojutsu like Sharingan and Rinnegan override non-dojutsu eye designs. Take a look at any time Sasuke used his Sharingan with Curse Mode active(Orochimaru's Curse Marks are a variation of Sage Transformation which is a form of Senjutsu by the way)

      Do you have any explaination for Naruto's new eyes? Or why they come and go when he uses SPSM? Or are you saying they are there for shits and giggles?

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      This is wrong again. You admittedly are interpreting a shown image without context, you’re guessing. I’m not. The eyes have no proven significance. On top of all that, you failed to realize that Naruto saved guy using his rikudo hand seal. That power is not part of rsm, and that’s what madara was initially reacting to. Madara even looked at guy’ 8th gate and noticed how it managed to be preserved. Again that was done by Naruto using the rikudo seal not rsm. That power relied on rikudo chakra not rikudo senjutsu, there is a clear difference. Iirc, the seals were explained on different pages in the databook.

      The Yang seal doesnt give him healing powers. The Yang Seal is used with the Yin Seal to activate 6 Paths Chibaku Tensei

      Naruto with just the Yellow-Cross Eyes could dodge a Limbo clone. Which he can only sense with SPSM.

      Madara also doesnt directly say that it is SPS until the chapter you cited but thats because he didnt figure it out until then. In the next chapter questions exactly what kind of power up Naruto got so even though he called it 6 Paths Senjutsu. He doesnt even fully understand the ins and outs of Naruto's new abilities. He knew Naruto was different before he activated the cloak, he just didnt understand how at the time.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Now you’re just speculating. For one, regardless of how you attain rikudo senjutsu/ juubi chakra, with enough of it the result will always be the same. Obito, madara, hagoromo, and kaguya each gained a significant amount juubi chakra through different methods, yet the same powers resulted from it. So you’re wrong.

      The same powers didnt result from it though. The only 2 people to get the same abilities were Obito and Madara who used the same method of obtaining 6 Paths Senjutsu.

      Kaguya didnt gain Juubi chakra. She is the Juubi.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:


      You’ve restated counter 1 from the OP.

      You have yet to invalidate it. You ASSUME that the chakra being referred is the culmination of all tailed beasts chakra but that isnt stated anywhere. You just keep saying it is.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      So your rebuttal is that TSOs, whos natural state is to be suspended in mid air, will somehow succumb to gravity? You have to know that isn’t accurate, right?

      Their state while being used is to levitate.

      They do succumb to gravity. Ch. 668 p 15 the TSB Minato teleported are lying on the ground with his cloak.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Iirc madara had to extend his hand call his last TSOs from a distance away to throw it at guy.

      This didnt happen. Madara had it as a staff and reverted it back to a ball after Guy detroyed his arm. It was always at his side and he sat still while he launched it at Guy.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      So then I guess ashura(and indra) died really young, since they were shown clinging to Naruto(and Sasuke).

      Ashura and Indra never manifested themselves like the 4 characters i mentioned. Moot point

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      There’s is no way to prove you’re claim wrong nor right. I could easy make a similar claim to support my own stance. Hamura and his descendants have powers of unexplained origin. You can‘t use them here because of that uncertainty.

      TSB are stated to come with SP Senjutsu and Hamura has them.

      Even if we ignore the TSB, He also used 6 Paths Chibaku Tensei(a SP Senjutsu technique)with Hagoromo.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      You missed the part where hagoromo explicated states more than his own chakra is required for him to reenter the living world. Madara’ torso both met and exceeded those requirements.[3] Yet he was still weakened because he gave his power to Naruto and Sasuke. Which further proves that those TSO being produced were largely due to juubi chakra that he just acquired from madara.

      For starters, the translation you used makes no sense. He mentions the chakra of the ten tails and then immediately says its the chakra of the nine tails, Ashura, and Indra that allowed him to manifest.

      Second, nowhere in that page did it say he made TSB's through Madara's lower half. Those are the same TSB he had in the afterlife. Madaras lower body alome didnt even have enough of Hagoromos chakra for him to manifest until Hashirama touched it.

      3rd, Hagoromo being weakened has no effect on the TSB's because they are like tools, not fueled by chakra like a TBB or a Rasengan.

      4th, when a character manifests, they have all their original powers and abilities. This is why Kaguya had all her Kekkei abilities even though Madara didnt have most of them. This is also evident by the fact that Hagoromo had his TSB in the afterlife even though he wasnt the Juubi's junchiriki when he died. When Obito came back from the afterlife, he only had his abilities, not ones he had while Juubito.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      As rikudo chakra alone doesn’t produce TSOs, if that were true madara would’ve gotten it the moment he awakened rinnegan. As that was a result of achieving recreated rikudo chakra. Also edo madara would’ve gained TSOs as kabuto made him also achieve ‘fake’ rinnegan. So you’re wrong.

      TSB's dont come from Rinnegan. No one ever said this. Why are you bringing this up. TSB are a result of 6 Paths Senjutsu. This is why Naruto and Hamura had some.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      You’re wrong again because kaguya could only be revived with the juubi’ power. She literally took over his vessel, and absorbed some chakra from infinite tsukuyomi. Not to mention she remained massively weakened because half her chakra was still missing. This is because she was revived entirely without hamura chakra, she was without more than half of her divided power during the 4th war. Yet she still produced a TSO variant. Which we know isn’t possible with chakra from the those captured by infinite tsukuyomi, but rather the juubi’ chakra.

      Kaguya's power was never literally divided between her children. They recieved half of her strength and abilities.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      I’m not having an issue with the definition. The issue here is the lack of context, which is evident that you have. I’m not leaving anything to interpretation, nor does the OP operate in vagueness. No instead I’ve provided sources, and evidence to my statements. So while I do appreciate the link, that doesn’t help you gain context to further understand which definition is most fitting. This is why I suggested giving example of vestiges that are similar to that which describes the former biju fragments. Did you think of any? I gave 2 examples.

      You are projecting the exact same way dude. You are providing statements that dont match what you are saying. You are choosing the definition that suits your view even though the rest of the passage directly contradicts it.

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote: 4 There is no evidence to support that definition. But it doesn’t matter which meaning you pick, the common denominator is that they are unusable. Which the boruto era makes very clear.

      https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vestige

      I laughed at this

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    • LegionZero wrote: Manga is a visual medium. It doesnt have to tell us everything. It communicates just as much by showing us things.

      Yellow-cross eyes have only ever appeared once Naruto obtained SPSM. I caan point out every single time this unique eye design showed up.(and they all corrospond to Naruto using SPSM)

      Just a heads up, dojutsu like Sharingan and Rinnegan override non-dojutsu eye designs. Take a look at any time Sasuke used his Sharingan with Curse Mode active(Orochimaru's Curse Marks are a variation of Sage Transformation which is a form of Senjutsu by the way)

      Do you have any explaination for Naruto's new eyes? Or why they come and go when he uses SPSM? Or are you saying they are there for shits and giggles?

      The image(s) relies on dialogue and narration. Without it you are left to interpret, create a personal narrative and guess the meaning of said image(s) instead. That’s implies a margin of error, whereas I can cite the narrative and gain all the relevant information to understand said image(s). Without guessing, my margin of error is significantly less than yours, if any at all. Maybe your approach would work for titles like Age of Reptiles, Moon Knight, or even the first 4 issues of Shaolin Cowboy. But Naruto aren’t those titles and your speculation is wrong. It’s wrong because you can’t support it without falsely equating the standards of different forms with different powers and hallmarks. Your claim is based on fallacy and is far from factual.


      LegionZero wrote:The Yang seal doesnt give him healing powers. The Yang Seal is used with the Yin Seal to activate 6 Paths Chibaku Tensei

      Naruto with just the Yellow-Cross Eyes could dodge a Limbo clone. Which he can only sense with SPSM.

      Madara also doesnt directly say that it is SPS until the chapter you cited but thats because he didnt figure it out until then. In the next chapter questions exactly what kind of power up Naruto got so even though he called it 6 Paths Senjutsu. He doesnt even fully understand the ins and outs of Naruto's new abilities. He knew Naruto was different before he activated the cloak, he just didnt understand how at the time.

      We know his rikudo hand seal is responsible for saving guy, it’s been consistently[1] shown and implied to be. Naruto not only placed a seal on guy identical to that on his hand. Later when he was questioned about saving guy, Naruto looks at his hand giving credit of the feat to rikudo seal. There’s no questions about it. Everything is there for you to read and comprehend. His hand seal is what heals guy. Madara knew exactly what power Naruto and Sasuke got that could see and sense limbo.[2] What he questioned was how they got it. The power he didn’t know about were the hand seals. That hand seal didn’t gradually raise Naruto’ level of power that madara was sensing, rikudo senjutsu did that. So Naruto had started producing rikudo senjutsu when he sensed limbo. Once he had enough of it, Naruto entered rsm. The same happened again later when he fought Sasuke. His eyes changing doesn’t have any significance. Even the databook would’ve affirmed that if it were true, just as it affirmed the presence of juubi’ chakra.


      LegionZero wrote:The same powers didnt result from it though. The only 2 people to get the same abilities were Obito and Madara who used the same method of obtaining 6 Paths Senjutsu.

      Kaguya didnt gain Juubi chakra. She is the Juubi.

      Kaguya did gain rikudo senjutsu. That’s like saying kurama can’t use kurama chakra. You just said she is the juubi, obviously she’d have access to her own chakra.

      LegionZero wrote: You have yet to invalidate it. You ASSUME that the chakra being referred is the culmination of all tailed beasts chakra but that isnt stated anywhere. You just keep saying it is.

      I proved it was. I proved Naruto(and Sasuke) still has rikudo chakra. So according to that logic he should be to enter rsm and produce TSOs, but he hasn’t. So that logic is flawed and simply wrong. Again juubi’ chakra is required to enter rsm. Hokage Naruto is without juubi chakra.


      LegionZero wrote:

      Their state while being used is to levitate.

      They do succumb to gravity. Ch. 668 p 15 the TSB Minato teleported are lying on the ground with his cloak.

      This didnt happen. Madara had it as a staff and reverted it back to a ball after Guy detroyed his arm. It was always at his side and he sat still while he launched it at Guy.

      It happened but I was mistaken about when it did. It wasn’t before he threw it at Guy, it was after. First page of chapter 673. I can admit that I was wrong about naruto’ two returning. Though that doesn’t change the fact madara’ thrown TSOs were caught by Minato, as you pointed out, and later disintegrated.[3] Fast forward to hagoromo’ brief self revival and there are a new set of TSOs, which even he credits to the presence of juubi chakra inside madara’ severed torso.[4] And again there’s kaguya who produced an ETSO. Conclusion they can and have replenished.


      It’s not moot to mention Indra and ashura’ spirit. They were depicted there and they weren’t even aged.

      LegionZero wrote:

      TSB are stated to come with SP Senjutsu and Hamura has them.

      Even if we ignore the TSB, He also used 6 Paths Chibaku Tensei(a SP Senjutsu technique)with Hagoromo.

      That is true, but just like madara wondered about Naruto and Sasuke, we do not know how hamura acquired his power. All rikudo senjutsu users interacts with either the juubi or the juubi’ chakra. We don’t know what hamura’ case is. Using hamura is moot.

      LegionZero wrote:

      For starters, the translation you used makes no sense. He mentions the chakra of the ten tails and then immediately says its the chakra of the nine tails, Ashura, and Indra that allowed him to manifest.

      Second, nowhere in that page did it say he made TSB's through Madara's lower half. Those are the same TSB he had in the afterlife. Madaras lower body alome didnt even have enough of Hagoromos chakra for him to manifest until Hashirama touched it.

      3rd, Hagoromo being weakened has no effect on the TSB's because they are like tools, not fueled by chakra like a TBB or a Rasengan.

      4th, when a character manifests, they have all their original powers and abilities. This is why Kaguya had all her Kekkei abilities even though Madara didnt have most of them. This is also evident by the fact that Hagoromo had his TSB in the afterlife even though he wasnt the Juubi's junchiriki when he died. When Obito came back from the afterlife, he only had his abilities, not ones he had while Juubito.

      1. It does make since. He mentions madara and hashirama and the juubi’ chakra was all present in that torso, then he goes on to mention the bare minimum chakra that is required for him to perform the feat. Essentially, that torso exceeded the necessary chakra for hagoromo to return on his own. Why he needs kurama chakra is unknown, but still established. 2. That’s headcanon madara has the same body he gained hashirama’ sage mode from. That requires hashirama chakra. Also he gave away his power to Naruto and Sasuke. Also he can’t be juubi jinchuriki as a spirit. That title belonged to 2 then living Uchiha and(in a sense) to Naruto. 3. It does have an effect. The god tree was stealing chakra cloaks from the alliance. No chakra no cloak. Obito when he initially became a jinchuriki, didn’t properly tap into enough juubi chakra, and TSOs weren’t produced then either. 4. Obito wasn’t a jinchuriki before he died. What are you talking about? Minato didn’t die a perfect jinchuriki. And to competent debunk you I just have to point to the minimum requirements hagoromo needed to resurrect. You want me to believe that TSOs could be produced with rikudo chakra and kurama chakra. Yet you just got finish saying hamura had rikudo senjutsu. And we know all examples of TSOs users had juubi’ chakra. So until you can produce an example of a TSO user with only kurama chakra and rikudo chakra you are wrong.


      LegionZero wrote:

      TSB's dont come from Rinnegan. No one ever said this. Why are you bringing this up. TSB are a result of 6 Paths Senjutsu. This is why Naruto and Hamura had some.

      Yet you just got finish saying hagoromo was brought back with his own power, including the TSOs. Since we know that at the very least hagoromo needed rikudo and kurama chakra to revive, you’re suggesting that even with those chakra he’d still have TSOs. That is wrong. You can’t say TSO require juubi chakra then imply it can be achieved without it. That’s a contradiction.

      LegionZero wrote:

      Kaguya's power was never literally divided between her children. They recieved half of her strength and abilities.

      Oxymoron much? Kaguya lost much of her chakra to her twin sons, she never recovered that power.


      LegionZero wrote:

      You are projecting the exact same way dude. You are providing statements that dont match what you are saying. You are choosing the definition that suits your view even though the rest of the passage directly contradicts it.

      Outside of naruto’ TSOs that returned to him, I’ve proven myself correct. Plus being wrong about that didn’t disprove my overall point.

      Eye have no relevance because there’s nothing contextual to supporting. You’re interpreting an image. Whereas I’m pointing out actual acknowledgements of Naruto increased power, prior to and after he entered rsm.

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    • You havent proven anything.

      You have no explaination for why Naruto's eyes change everytime he uses SPSM. This is Naruto, almost every power up comes with an eye change. I speculate nothing. Its a fact that Naruto's eyes become yellow and cross marked when using SPSM.

      You are making assumptions and quoting stuff that does not back your claims at all. Vlado provided an entire paragraph that refutes your claim and i provided the dictionary definition that works best in the context of the passage quoted and you denied it saying we are interperating wrong.

      Your thought processes make no sense and leaves huge logic holes. Your "refutes" dont actually debunk anything, and you even outright ignore the manga. There is no point going any further with this discussion

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      • When I’m say ‘you’ I’m adressing all those who countered thus far.*

      You were shown separate manga evidence for proof of sagehood and proof of rikudo sagehood. You were also shown databook evidence corroborating the proof of rikudo sagehood.

      You went on to claim a different metric for proof of rikudo sagehood, but ultimately failed to support it. You instead attempted to supplement lack of acknowledgement of sagehood and acknowledgement of rikudo seals as that of rikudo sagehood. The error in logic was pointed out to you, but fallacies ensued. You were given a breakdown of TSOs and it’s abilities to be replenished. You pointed out a flaw in the presented logic and corrected me on a minor point about the ability, but still failed debunk the main point. You opted to mention an outlier feat or more simply put and unknown source that managed to produce TSOs. This still didn’t take away from my point because of the level of uncertainty surrounding the feat. You were given a thorough explaination for rikudo senjutsu and it’s relation to rsm. You opted to deny and repeat fallacy. You even deliberately restated counters mentioned in the OP. This proves either denial or that you failed to fully read the OP.

      You were provided with ample evidence to support all stances and statements, leaving very little to speculation. Whereas you have been largely speculating, thinking that somehow hallmarks of frog sage mode means anything to rsm. When you were shown that isn’t the case, you then attempted to argue in circles.

      The initial reply attempted to speak for me, rather than further inquire, and opted to move straight into denfense of a consensus that has been proven wrong with this post. It’s premise: hokage Naruto retained 8 biju chakra fragments. This was ultimately debunked. But this went ignored and was deflected from only to return to later on.

      There was a comment expressing disbelief that Naruto would keep his rsm but not use it. Now if you consider how Minato, since his death, hasn’t used sage mode for exactly 17 years, yet the moment he gathers the required power(senjutsu) he enters the form without difficultly. If you draw the comparison to hokage Naruto who also hasn’t used rsm in nearly 17 years. You’ll see that Naruto is in much of the same situation and is more like his father than previously thought. You wouldn’t say Minato lost his sage mode because he didn’t use it over 17 years. No, he’d still be classified as a sage. In the same manner, you’d be wrong to say Naruto lost his rikudo sage mode just because he hasn’t used it since undoing IT. I’m sure there are those who read my post and jump the the conclusion that I think Naruto lost rsm, that isn’t my claim but more importantly that was never proven. So the same way Minato regathered the necessary nature energy and reentered sage mode, Naruto would have to regather the necessary juubi chakra before reentering rsm, just like he did during VOTE2. Naruto powered down from rsm after resealing kaguya, yet goes back into that form and juubi’ chakra is shown present again. Databook establishes just as madara did, chakra greater than kurama is needed. It was proven that hokage Naruto kept some amount of rikudo chakra, this was done so that you wouldn’t not mistake that greater chakra for something it isn’t. That superior power is the juubi’ chakra. Madara obito and Naruto were considered juubi jinchuriki which was proven, this always results in rikudo senjutsu which was also proven. It’s the only power that allows Naruto to enter rsm.

      In conclusion, a collective effort to deny, very little effort to support any claims made(I counted 3-5 citations total, and only 1 link), and no consideration for new information. That describes all the counter arguments. I’ve been transparent this whole time. I am humble enough to admit when I was wrong. Yet you aren’t. I’ve given you ample evidence to prove that you were wrong on multiple fronts.

      @AsianReaper who exactly deals with the rsm page? Who edits and fact checks what’s on that page?

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    • None of the admins are gonna make cganges to the wiki page based off of what you are saying because what you are saying makes no sense

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    • LegionZero wrote: None of the admins are gonna make cganges to the wiki page based off of what you are saying because what you are saying makes no sense

      It does make sense, but more than that it reveals a crucial flaw in the current consensus.

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    • No it doesnt. Thats why no one who has come across this thread agrees with you and has debunked your suppositions

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    • @Hagomoro


      I thought there is a distinction between 6 paths senjutsu and 6 paths sage mode. Naruto has six paths sage mode, not obito or madara. The only thing they had in common was six paths senjutus, which gives you truth seeking orbs, which comes a result of being a juubi jinchuriki. Are you telling me that he was simply using frog sage mode when he kicked madara's TSO? That's factually wrong, because frog sage mode is depicted very differently. Six paths sagge mode was a powerup that hagomormo's ridoku chakra granted to naruto's regular sage mode. When he fuses it with his KCM cloak, he becomes BSPSM. The panel showing the changes in naruto's kcm cloak were the result of his six paths senjutsu, but that has nothing to do with his six path sage mode. You yourself said that naruto as an adult still has hagomoro's ridoku chakra, which is what gives him his six paths sage mode. he needs the 9 bijuu for six paths senjutsu. It's the same reason why madara, when he awakened rinnegan, he had awakeend six paths chakra but didn't have truth seeking orbs or a chakra cloak, because duh he wasn't a juubi jinchuriki at the time.

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    • CombatIQmatters wrote: @Hagomoro


      I thought there is a distinction between 6 paths senjutsu and 6 paths sage mode. Naruto has six paths sage mode, not obito or madara. The only thing they had in common was six paths senjutus, which gives you truth seeking orbs, which comes a result of being a juubi jinchuriki. Are you telling me that he was simply using frog sage mode when he kicked madara's TSO? That's factually wrong, because frog sage mode is depicted very differently. Six paths sagge mode was a powerup that hagomormo's ridoku chakra granted to naruto's regular sage mode. When he fuses it with his KCM cloak, he becomes BSPSM. The panel showing the changes in naruto's kcm cloak were the result of his six paths senjutsu, but that has nothing to do with his six path sage mode. You yourself said that naruto as an adult still has hagomoro's ridoku chakra, which is what gives him his six paths sage mode. he needs the 9 bijuu for six paths senjutsu. It's the same reason why madara, when he awakened rinnegan, he had awakeend six paths chakra but didn't have truth seeking orbs or a chakra cloak, because duh he wasn't a juubi jinchuriki at the time.

      Much like obito and madara, Naruto was considered a juubi jinchuriki.[1] This is because like them, he gained the juubi’ chakra, also called rikudo senjutsu. Naruto achieved this by tapping into all 9 chakra at once. Each time Naruto enters rsm, he had rikudo senjutsu. This proves rikudo senjutsu as a requirement to enter rsm. Aquring rsm and entering it requires different powers. Hagoromo only gave Naruto rsm after recognizing he had the power to enter it. That power is called juubi chakra, which was created when using all 9 biju chakra together. I’ll restate: Naruto had the 9 biju chakra before he high fives hagoromo, before he was given rsm. The 9 biju are required to enter rsm and that’s what this thread is about. I stated this in my OP.

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    • CombatIQmatters wrote: @Hagomoro


      I thought there is a distinction between 6 paths senjutsu and 6 paths sage mode. Naruto has six paths sage mode, not obito or madara. The only thing they had in common was six paths senjutus, which gives you truth seeking orbs, which comes a result of being a juubi jinchuriki. Are you telling me that he was simply using frog sage mode when he kicked madara's TSO? That's factually wrong, because frog sage mode is depicted very differently. Six paths sagge mode was a powerup that hagomormo's ridoku chakra granted to naruto's regular sage mode. When he fuses it with his KCM cloak, he becomes BSPSM. The panel showing the changes in naruto's kcm cloak were the result of his six paths senjutsu, but that has nothing to do with his six path sage mode. You yourself said that naruto as an adult still has hagomoro's ridoku chakra, which is what gives him his six paths sage mode. he needs the 9 bijuu for six paths senjutsu. It's the same reason why madara, when he awakened rinnegan, he had awakeend six paths chakra but didn't have truth seeking orbs or a chakra cloak, because duh he wasn't a juubi jinchuriki at the time.

      SPSM was never said to rely on the Bijuu of the Tailed Beasts. Only that he got it from Hagoromo.

      Naruto actually asked Son Goku if he could borrow some chakra while he was in SPSM to form the Lava Rasenshuriken, if he was already drawing on their power he wouldnt need to ask to borrow any of the tailed beasts chakra

      Actually Hagoromo and Hamura were using 6 Paths Senjutsu prior to the sealing of the Juubi.

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    • There is no such evidence of hamura and and hagromo having rikudo senjutsu prior to sealing the juubi. The most you can show is kaguya recalling an image of hagoromo, but there’s no timestamp attached to that recalling. Furthermore as the juubi, she could’ve recalled events post being sealed inside hagoromo proven by the fact that juubi spoke to madara. Not only that but she also somehow knows the names of her grandchildren Indra and ashura. There’s in no explanation as to how she knows this, it was only provided that she does.

      I proved in the OP that biju chakra was used to power rsm. I also pointed it that both hagoromo and kurama said that Naruto met many conditions, and because of this he received power. Gyuki and kurama clarifies that among those condition one of them was having chakra from all 9 biju.

      This establishes the juubi chakra as a requirement since it was after this moment that hagoromo high fives Naruto granting him the rsm form to use the power he currently has. Which is more power than just kurama. The exact statement made by the databook.

      Asking for the biju chakra proves he staring use them. Madara acknowledged his power was gradually increasing. Madara didn’t know if the other 7 chakra fragments inside of Naruto. Still, once he enters rsm madara clarifies that his increased power is rikudo senjutsu.

      This too is found in the OP.

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    • Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Well for one, the claim that ‘there is no mention of biju chakra being involved with rsm’(or anything similar enough to that) just got debunked. The actual description states the kick required chakra greater than what Naruto uses for kcm, which at that point was half of kurama.[1]

      ... No? It just means 6PSM gives him a bigger boost than half of Kurama lol.

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    • 6 Paths Chibaku Tensei is a 6 Paths Senjutsu technique and they used that on the Juubi to seal it away

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    • @Hagoromo

      Hagoromo appeared in naruto's conciousness after naruto had juubi chakra, so yes naruto achieved ridoku senjutsu. he has access to ridoku senjutsu as long as he has the 9 tailed beast chakra. Sasuke didn't get ridoku senjutsu because he wasn't given the juubi chakra. He was given ridoku chakra, and naruto also got ridoku chakra. Ridoku senjutsu =/= six paths sage mode. naruto's ridoku chakra granted him the ability to use six paths sage mode, which he can use in base as he clearly used it to deflect madara's TSO. Naruto's six paths senjutsu gives him the truth seeking orbs and the ability to enhance his kurama chakra cloak and give it a design similar to that of the juubi jinchuriki. Obito and madara had six paths senjutsu, not six paths sage mode. The naming convention is confusing but they are separate things.

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    • Hagoromo appeared to Naruto before he had Gyuuki and Shukkaku's chakra. 6 Paths Senjutsu and 6 Paths Sage Mode are basically the same thing. SPSM doesnt seem to require using the Juubi to use SP Senjutsu.

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    • AsianReaper wrote: ... No? It just means 6PSM gives him a bigger boost than half of Kurama lol.

      The boost comes from the 9 biju chakra he had at the time. That boost doesn’t come from hagoromo’ chakra as hokage Naruto still has hagoromo’ chakra yet he doesn’t produce and juubi chakra nor has he spawned any TSOs.

      That boost was rikudo senjutsu.


      LegionZero wrote: 6 Paths Chibaku Tensei is a 6 Paths Senjutsu technique and they used that on the Juubi to seal it away

      Rikudo CT uses rikudo senjutsu, but it’s a technique of hagoromo’ not the juubi’. It’s a rikudo technique. The juubi would t make a jutsu specifically to defeat itself.

      CombatIQmatters wrote: @Hagoromo

      Hagoromo appeared in naruto's conciousness after naruto had juubi chakra, so yes naruto achieved ridoku senjutsu. he has access to ridoku senjutsu as long as he has the 9 tailed beast chakra. Sasuke didn't get ridoku senjutsu because he wasn't given the juubi chakra. He was given ridoku chakra, and naruto also got ridoku chakra. Ridoku senjutsu =/= six paths sage mode. naruto's ridoku chakra granted him the ability to use six paths sage mode, which he can use in base as he clearly used it to deflect madara's TSO. Naruto's six paths senjutsu gives him the truth seeking orbs and the ability to enhance his kurama chakra cloak and give it a design similar to that of the juubi jinchuriki. Obito and madara had six paths senjutsu, not six paths sage mode. The naming convention is confusing but they are separate things.

      You go from saying Naruto achieved rikudo senjutsu and implied he received rsm afterwards. Then you say he used rsm in base. That’s a contradiction. Having rikudo senjutsu isn’t being in base. When Naruto woke up, he kicked the TSO that was meant to end guy. Data says it requires greater power that half kurama, so already Naruto level of power is rising. This continues as I mentioned before until he does enter rsm. Madara recognizes his increased power as rikudo senjutsu.

      That makes it clear that Naruto was producing juubi chakra for the specific purpose to enter rsm.

      Furthermore this process isn’t much different when Naruto needed time to gather senjutsu and enter sage mode during pain arc. You wouldn’t have said Naruto was in sage mode while he was gathering the energy to enter that sage mode, yet that’s exactly what you’re doing for rsm. If you read the bottom of the OP, no one is saying hagoromo didn’t give him rsm, but just as hagoromo acknowledged all 9 biju inside Naruto he knew that rsm could take that power further. Naruto soon after wakes up and begins putting all 9 biju chakra to work. After enough juubi chakra was produced he enters rsm.

      LegionZero wrote: Hagoromo appeared to Naruto before he had Gyuuki and Shukkaku's chakra. 6 Paths Senjutsu and 6 Paths Sage Mode are basically the same thing. SPSM doesnt seem to require using the Juubi to use SP Senjutsu.

      That isn’t true. By the time hagoromo decided to give Naruto power he was greatest by each biju’ chakra inside him. This is power existed in Naruto before hagoromo gave him rsm. Not only did Naruto have the mentality that deems him worthy of rsm, but he had the means to achieve the juubi’ chakra which is what rsm uses.

      There is no example of sage mode in Naruto that doesn’t require senjutsu BEFORE entering it. Rsm’ senjutsu is juubi chakra, rikudo senjutsu. Unless you believe that kishimoto threw all the mechincs for sage modenout the window during the war arc. Which he didn’t.

      So like I said, if it's logical that sages need have senjutsu present prior to entering sage mode, why isn’t it also logical that rikudo sages need to have rikudo senjutsu prior to entering rsm?

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    • Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      LegionZero wrote: 6 Paths Chibaku Tensei is a 6 Paths Senjutsu technique and they used that on the Juubi to seal it away

      Rikudo CT uses rikudo senjutsu, but it’s a technique of hagoromo’ not the juubi’. It’s a rikudo technique. The juubi would t make a jutsu specifically to defeat itself.

      Its a 6 Paths Senjutsu technique. This is a fact from the databook. Hagoromo had 6 Paths Senjutsu before he defeated the juubi.

      Juubi isnt necissary for 6 Paths Senjutsu. The databook never said it was. The databook and the manga debunk what you say.

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      LegionZero wrote: 6 Paths Chibaku Tensei is a 6 Paths Senjutsu technique and they used that on the Juubi to seal it away

      Rikudo CT uses rikudo senjutsu, but it’s a technique of hagoromo’ not the juubi’. It’s a rikudo technique. The juubi would t make a jutsu specifically to defeat itself.

      Its a 6 Paths Senjutsu technique. This is a fact from the databook. Hagoromo had 6 Paths Senjutsu before he defeated the juubi.

      Juubi isnt necissary for 6 Paths Senjutsu. The databook never said it was. The databook and the manga debunk what you say.

      The origin of the seals is unknown, so is how hagromo acquired them. The technique itself has an uncertain origin, so you relying on that makes your stance equally speculative. The juubi’ power is necessary for rikudo senjutsu. Madara, obito, Naruto, ashura, hagoromo and kaguya all gained the juubi’ power through different means. It always resulted in rikudo senjutsu.

      Your alleged debunk fails until you can explain the origin of hamura’ acquired power and that of the rikudo seals.

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    • "Six Paths Chibaku Tensei is invoked when two users simultaneously touch their target with the "Yin" and "Yang" seals. It rips a giant chunk of earth up and turns it into a heavenly body, becoming the Prison of Six Paths (六道の獄 Rokudō no Goku) that can capture all things (万物捕, "banbutsuto"). It's a sealing jutsu that can be used by individuals who awaken Six Paths Senjutsu. "[[1]]

      You are wrong. Accept it.

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    • LegionZero wrote: "Six Paths Chibaku Tensei is invoked when two users simultaneously touch their target with the "Yin" and "Yang" seals. It rips a giant chunk of earth up and turns it into a heavenly body, becoming the Prison of Six Paths (六道の獄 Rokudō no Goku) that can capture all things (万物捕, "banbutsuto"). It's a sealing jutsu that can be used by individuals who awaken Six Paths Senjutsu. "[[1]]

      You are wrong. Accept it.

      That doesn’t explain how they acquired that power, does it? It also doesn’t explain why madara and obito got rikudo senjutsu only after becoming hosts of the juubi.

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    • I believe both parties are partially right. The biggest confusion and uncertainty stems from these things:

      • Is RSM/SPSM the eyes or the cloak? You claim that basically it's sort of both, just the eyes was an initial version that slowly built up into the actual mode with the cloak as Naruto produced more Jubi chakra or so
      • others may claim SPSM is the eyes, with the cloak being Kurama Mode on top of SPSM
      • some may also argue that Naruto no longer has that power, which is kinda supported by the absence of TSO/TSB post-war, no flying and no communication with and powers usage of the other Tailed Beasts
      • others claim Naruto has that power permanently because Hagoromo said Naruto is a meeting place
      • next Naruto has displayed several different cloaks post Part II. era ... The Last cloak is confirmed to be Kurama Mode (with Sage Mode), but looks different... possibly because it entails the whole Kurama, not just Yang or Yin halves ... then there is the Gaiden cloak that also got adapted into the anime... 2 different cloaks in the Boruto movie and anime and 2 different cloaks in Boruto manga

      Some might say that the absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence, although I would say that in this case the absence of evidence is the evidence of absence... if Naruto still had those powers, he would be using them.

      As for what RSM/SPSM actually is, I believe both are correct. It's the eyes and the cloak is Kurama Mode, but only when Naruto donned Kurama Mode over RSM/SPSM did the Six Paths Senjutsu back pattern thingy become visible.

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      Naruto actually asked Son Goku if he could borrow some chakra while he was in SPSM to form the Lava Rasenshuriken, if he was already drawing on their power he wouldnt need to ask to borrow any of the tailed beasts chakra

      He also asked Kurama for Chakra in that mode.

      This is one heck of a conversation. The only real interesting bit I could take from Hagoromo is that Naruto's Six Paths Chakra Mode just may have been building on the Chakra he used to enter Six Paths Sage Mode, instead of being a combination of Six Paths Sage Mode and Kurama Mode.

      Though, I'm of the persuasion Six Paths Sage Mode is brought about when Naruto kneads the Chakra of the 9 Tailed Beasts together. If you follow Hagoromo's idea on it, when his eyes solely change it could act just like the Initial state like other Jinchuriki forms and when he has enough he's covered in it like a Chakra shroud.

      But just because he's kneaded their Chakra into Six Paths Sage Chakra doesn't mean he can't still use their Chakra individually, hence him asking the Tailed Beasts for aid during his battle with Kaguya and Madara and like when a Tailed Beast's Chakra normally bleeds into their host's Chakra Pool. That also helps me sort Kurama's Chakra modes in my head. If the Chakra Mode used vs Madara and Kaguya wasn't Kurama's own, that makes a bit more sense for me as why the form hasn't acted the same way since the war.

      I like the idea... But, this opens the can of worms as to why he hasn't used that Chakra Mode. It COULD be hand waved off as he has enough to enter initial state, or base Six Paths Sage Mode, but not enough of the other tailed beasts' Chakra to enter that form, so he uses Kurama's Chakra Mode.

      (Edit) Though it can also be attributed like Kurama's own Kurama Mode, where Naruto needs to Sync his Chakra (Hearts?) with the Tailed Beasts to enter that mode so he cannot when their consciousness has left his own body.

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    • Ive proven that those chakra fragemnts are very small. So much so that Naruto nearly died twice while he still had them. Which establishes kurama as the largest biju chakra he had during the war. So when he taps into all 9 chakra at once, gradually producing juubi’ chakra, kurama is still the greatest component of that chakra. So there is no surprise that entering rsm would somewhat resemble kurama mode. Don’t mistake have juubi chakra for having the actual juubi inside him. Naruto did not have the actual juubi inside, he was simply able to recreate a fraction of its chakra. This is proven by the fact that he could still speak to individual biju throughout the fight with kaguya. So since he doesn’t actually have the juubi inside him, he doesn’t go through the same changes as obito or madara, his skin doesn’t resemble the pale whiteness of the ohtsutsuki(he does get somewhat lighter though). Still, that produced juubi chakra was his rikudo senjutsu. That’s what he was waiting for and that’s what let him enter rsm.

      If he didn’t need that juubi’ chakra for rikudo senjutsu, then why wait? Why not use his half of hagoromo chakra to produce rikudo senjutsu and enter rsm right away? It’s simple, he can’t without the juubi chakra.


      To be clear what I’m saying is this: Since Naruto woke up, he was already staring to produce juubi chakra. He kicks the TSO he’s making lava ransenshuriken and dodging limbo. All of this is granted by gradually increasing rikudo senjutsu thanks to the mixing of the 9 biju chakra. Once he makes enough juubi chakra, he enters rsm.

      Which is further supported by the fact that he can compartmentalize chakra[1] and is skillful enough with half of kurama to share and make his chakra comparable with others[2]. Which kurama can also use Naruto to share his chakra with anyone. Since those 8 fragments were less than half kurama, both Naruto and the biju themselves are capable of working together and producing juubi chakra.

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    • Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote: So there is no surprise that entering rsm would resembling kurama mode. Don’t mistake have juubi chakra for having the actual juubi inside him. Naruto did not have the actual juubi inside, he was simply able to recreate a fraction of its chakra. This is proven by the fact that he could still speak to individual biju throughout the fight with kaguya. So since he doesn’t actually have the juubi inside him, he doesn’t go through the same changes as obito or madara,

      Or, it could be due to the lack of the Gedo Statue. Naruto doesn't have the Gedo Statue and that could be attributed to why he doesn't resemble the other Ten-Tails Jinchuriki. He has the power of the Ten-Tails but not the actual Ten-Tails.

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    • Littlegen wrote: Or, it could be due to the lack of the Gedo Statue. Naruto doesn't have the Gedo Statue and that could be attributed to why he doesn't resemble the other Ten-Tails Jinchuriki. He has the power of the Ten-Tails but not the actual Ten-Tails.

      I agree with this.

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    • Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      LegionZero wrote: "Six Paths Chibaku Tensei is invoked when two users simultaneously touch their target with the "Yin" and "Yang" seals. It rips a giant chunk of earth up and turns it into a heavenly body, becoming the Prison of Six Paths (六道の獄 Rokudō no Goku) that can capture all things (万物捕, "banbutsuto"). It's a sealing jutsu that can be used by individuals who awaken Six Paths Senjutsu. "[[1]]

      You are wrong. Accept it.

      That doesn’t explain how they acquired that power, does it? It also doesn’t explain why madara and obito got rikudo senjutsu only after becoming hosts of the juubi.

      It doesnt have to explain it how they got it beforehand. 6 Paths Senjutsu can be achieved without the Juubi. The Juubi can be used as a shortcut since Madara and Obito domt know how to do it on their own. They dont even know basic Sage Mode, and SP Senjutsu is a higher form of Senjutsu.

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    • Hamura, Hagoromo and Asura were users of SP Senjutsu and they didn't have the ten-tails. Hagoromo and Hamura were fighting Kaguya with SP Senjutsu, and Kaguya herself was the ten-tails at the time.

      But Naruto did obtain SP Senjutsu because of the 9 bijuu chakras.SPSM was because of Hagoromo.

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      LegionZero wrote: "Six Paths Chibaku Tensei is invoked when two users simultaneously touch their target with the "Yin" and "Yang" seals. It rips a giant chunk of earth up and turns it into a heavenly body, becoming the Prison of Six Paths (六道の獄 Rokudō no Goku) that can capture all things (万物捕, "banbutsuto"). It's a sealing jutsu that can be used by individuals who awaken Six Paths Senjutsu. "[[1]]

      You are wrong. Accept it.

      That doesn’t explain how they acquired that power, does it? It also doesn’t explain why madara and obito got rikudo senjutsu only after becoming hosts of the juubi.

      It doesnt have to explain it how they got it beforehand. 6 Paths Senjutsu can be achieved without the Juubi. The Juubi can be used as a shortcut since Madara and Obito domt know how to do it on their own. They dont even know basic Sage Mode, and SP Senjutsu is a higher form of Senjutsu.

      It does matter because you’re assuming the juubi wasn’t involved in their awakenings of it. You don’t know that and you also can’t prove that.

      Vladosaurus wrote: Hamura, Hagoromo and Asura were users of SP Senjutsu and they didn't have the ten-tails. Hagoromo and Hamura were fighting Kaguya with SP Senjutsu, and Kaguya herself was the ten-tails at the time.

      Ashura did get power from the juubi.[2] Still, I’m glad you agree with my main point.

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    • Where the Vrax is it stated Ashura had Six Paths Sage Jutsu?


      Six Paths Sage Jutsu is dumb. The Databook entry states they needed it for the "Six Paths: Planetary Construction" but in the flashbacks neither of the two had "Truth Seeking Balls", despite them later having multiple after the conflict.

      Maybe Hagoromo sealed the Ten-Tails within himself, then made the seals to seal away the Ten-Tail's body? That's the only explanation I can think of because Six Paths Sage Jutsu should come from the Ten-Tails.

      Madara, despite absorbing Sage Chakra from Hashirama, and regaining a Rinnegan, didn't manifest Six Paths Sage Jutsu. So it isn't Six Paths Chakra plus Nature Energy.

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    • Littlegen wrote: Where the Vrax is it stated Ashura had Six Paths Sage Jutsu?


      Six Paths Sage Jutsu is dumb. The Databook entry states they needed it for the "Six Paths: Planetary Construction" but in the flashbacks neither of the two had "Truth Seeking Balls", despite them later having multiple after the conflict.

      Maybe Hagoromo sealed the Ten-Tails within himself, then made the seals to seal away the Ten-Tail's body? That's the only explanation I can think of because Six Paths Sage Jutsu should come from the Ten-Tails.

      Madara, despite absorbing Sage Chakra from Hashirama, and regaining a Rinnegan, didn't manifest Six Paths Sage Jutsu. So it isn't Six Paths Chakra plus Nature Energy.

      Exactly. Much of hamura’ as well as the rikudo seals power source is unknown. As for ashura, hagoromo handed all the power to him that’s a why indra fought him. All power going to one side, that’s the mistake hagoromo made in thre last and that’s why he gave rinnegan tomsasuke to balance the power between his sons incarnates. Also ashura’ chakra cloak avatar with TSOs fighting indra’ susanoo solidified that he got rikudo senjutsu and rsm.

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    • Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote: Exactly. Much of hamura’ as well as the rikudo seals power source is unknown. As for ashura, hagoromo handed all the power to him that’s a why indra fought him. Al power going to one side. His kurama cloak avatar with TSOs fighting indra’ susanoo kinda solidified that he got rikudo senjutsu and rsm.

      I'm gonna put a hard "No" on that.

      Hagoromo would not give Ashura Chakra. Doing so would go against Hagoromo's own ideology. He wouldn't give them Chakra as he believed no one person should have so much power. Hagoromo choose him as his successor to Ninshuu.

      Ashura awakened his own "Bodily Chakra", and that's what made him a match for Indra. What that entails for his abilities, we don't know.

      As for what Hagoromo meant when conversing with Kakashi, he entrusted the future to Naruto and Sasuke both instead of either alone.

      Ashura wasn't the host to Kurama, the story never once suggests so. Truth Seeking Balls also aren't that large.

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    • Littlegen wrote:

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote: Exactly. Much of hamura’ as well as the rikudo seals power source is unknown. As for ashura, hagoromo handed all the power to him that’s a why indra fought him. Al power going to one side. His kurama cloak avatar with TSOs fighting indra’ susanoo kinda solidified that he got rikudo senjutsu and rsm.

      I'm gonna put a hard "No" on that.

      Hagoromo would not give Ashura Chakra. Doing so would go against Hagoromo's own ideology. He wouldn't give them Chakra as he believed no one person should have so much power. Hagoromo choose him as his successor to Ninshuu.

      Ashura awakened his own "Bodily Chakra", and that's what made him a match for Indra. What that entails for his abilities, we don't know.

      As for what Hagoromo meant when conversing with Kakashi, he entrusted the future to Naruto and Sasuke both instead of either alone.

      Ashura wasn't the host to Kurama, the story never once suggests so. Truth Seeking Balls also aren't that large.

      Just by having the TSOs means he received rikudo senjutsu. Plus he he was handed ninshu by hagoromo, it was that same decision which sparked their clashing that would repeat through time. I already linked you to a thread proving he infact did receive juubi power. Here it is again.[1] Ninshu is the only power ashura could've used to rival indra.

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    • Neither the manga nor the databooks say Ashura had SP Paths Senjutsu or Bijuu chakra.

      The Manga and the databook confirm Hagoromo had SP Senjutsu before sealing the Juubi.

      @Hag0r0mo: dide you quote something you said on another forum as proof? Quoting yourself doesnt make what you say proof. You can stop with these absurd mental backflips to make your half baked theory a fact.

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    • LegionZero wrote: Neither the manga nor the databooks say Ashura had SP Paths Senjutsu or Bijuu chakra.

      The Manga and the databook confirm Hagoromo had SP Senjutsu before sealing the Juubi.

      @Hag0r0mo: dide you quote something you said on another forum as proof? Quoting yourself doesnt make what you say proof. You can stop with these absurd mental backflips to make your half baked theory a fact.

      You say that as if you don’t have to refute what was cited, and as if I didn’t confirm my statement. I could inderstand if I cited something entirely irrelevant, but it literally proves me right. Canon sources were used also. So no, I’m not just ‘quoting something’, I had the evidence to prove me right and linked you to it. Try debunking instead of complaining of the forum used. Can you prove the information inaccurate?

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    • Sigh, people will keep arguing forever about these things. For Asura's big black balls (yes, I said it) they could have been just TSO/TSB...

      • Not Chibaku Tensei, because no Rinnegan
      • No TBB because that stuff comes from mouth and is charged and using them for melee seems impractical
      • I don't recall any other kind of dark sphere power in the series, but I may be wrong

      I don't get why people deny and are so against Hagoromo giving Asura power... the huge black orbs and avatar like thingy can't be manifestations of some own 'body power' (whatever that means) of Asura's because neither Hashirama nor Naruto, both having 'body power' of Asura/Hagoromo never displayed black orbs or avatar thingies... well, the latter did, but not because of his own 'body power' but because of Tailed Beasts and Hagoromo, so go figure.

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    • @hag0r0m0: the manga/data doesnt say/show Ashura having SPS or any bijuu chakra.

      The databook says 6 Paths Chibaku Tensei is an SPS technique. The manga/databook show/state Hagoromo and Hamura used it before Hagoromo was the juubichuriki. This thoroughly debunks the idea that Juubi chakra is needed for SPS.

      The manga/databook outrigt refutes your claims. But you keep finding workarounds that are unsupported by the manga/databooks.

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    • LegionZero wrote: @hag0r0m0: the manga/data doesnt say/show Ashura having SPS or any bijuu chakra.

      The databook says 6 Paths Chibaku Tensei is an SPS technique. The manga/databook show/state Hagoromo and Hamura used it before Hagoromo was the juubichuriki. This thoroughly debunks the idea that Juubi chakra is needed for SPS.

      The manga/databook outrigt refutes your claims. But you keep finding workarounds that are unsupported by the manga/databooks.

      I just proved ashura gained rikudo senjutsu from hagoromo. You still stand on uncertainty and speculation. You claim there’s no mention in the manga of ashura gaining rikudo senjutsu but I showed you why that isn’t true. Hagoromo said himself that ashura used ninshu to rival indra. Hagoromo was literally the here to pass the torch to him as the new leader of the creed. Why would hagoromo not participate in his own teachings? We later see ashura with TSOs, that is indicative of rikudo senjutsu. Beyond that hagoromo said he made the mistake of giving all the power to one side, that side was ashura. He was given both rikudo senjutsu and rsm.

      You fail to realize that by Naruto giving chakra to nearly 40k shinobi, that kurama’ own power can exists elsewhere outside of it’s actual body. Same thing can be said once Naruto created juubi chakra. That’s is juubi power existing outside and apart from the juubi. Again you can’t provide the origin story to how those seals came about by and how they were ableto be used and how hamura got his power which led to toneri’ power. You have nothing burn speculations.

      Plus hagoromo and hamura’ fight against the juubi lasted months, it took obito darn less time to take some of the juubi’ power from madara, and give it to both Naruto and kakashi. I rather not speculate because it leads no where. Stick with what you can prove. Right now you haven’t prove the lack of juubi involvement in eithe rikudo seals or hamura or hamura or rikudo senjutsu in General.

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    • Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      I just proved ashura gained rikudo senjutsu from hagoromo.

      With no hard facts from the databook or the manga, you didnt prove anything

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      You still stand on uncertainty and speculation. You claim there’s no mention in the manga of ashura gaining rikudo senjutsu but I showed you why that isn’t true. Hagoromo said himself that ashura used ninshu to rival indra.

      Hagoromo said he chose Ashura to carry on as the leader of Ninshu. Ninshu is a belief not a power up. It is using chakra to help understand other people, not fight them.

      Hagoromo never gave him power to fight. Hagoromo didnt believe in fighting. Hagoromo said Ashura unlocked his own power.

      Hagoromo giving him power is your assumption with no backing from the manga or databook.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Hagoromo was literally the here to pass the torch to him as the new leader of the creed. Why would hagoromo not participate in his own teachings? We later see ashura with TSOs, that is indicative of rikudo senjutsu. Beyond that hagoromo said he made the mistake of giving all the power to one side, that side was ashura. He was given both rikudo senjutsu and rsm.

      Ashura had black orbs. He isnt stated to be a junchuriki/SPS user/TSB user. Them being TSB is your ASSUMPTION with no confirmation from the manga or databooks.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Right now you haven’t prove the lack of juubi involvement in eithe rikudo seals or hamura or hamura or rikudo senjutsu in General.

      I literally quoted the part of the databook that flatout tells us that 6 Paths Chibaku Tensei is an SPS technique and that Hagoromo and Hamura used this technique before the sealing of the Juubi. If you are going to keep ignoring that then you shouldnt reply.

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      I just proved ashura gained rikudo senjutsu from hagoromo.

      Not in the databook or the manga

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      You still stand on uncertainty and speculation. You claim there’s no mention in the manga of ashura gaining rikudo senjutsu but I showed you why that isn’t true. Hagoromo said himself that ashura used ninshu to rival indra.

      Hagoromo said he chose Ashura to carry on as the leader of Ninshu. Ninshu is a belief not a power up. It is using chakra to help understand other people, not fight them.

      Hagoromo never gave him power to fight. Hagoromo didnt believe in fighting. Hagoromo said Ashura unlocked his own power

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Hagoromo was literally the here to pass the torch to him as the new leader of the creed. Why would hagoromo not participate in his own teachings? We later see ashura with TSOs, that is indicative of rikudo senjutsu. Beyond that hagoromo said he made the mistake of giving all the power to one side, that side was ashura. He was given both rikudo senjutsu and rsm.

      Ashura had black orbs. He isnt stated to be a junchuriki/SPS user/TSB user.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Right now you haven’t prove the lack of juubi involvement in eithe rikudo seals or hamura or hamura or rikudo senjutsu in General.

      I literally quoted the databook saying flatout telling 6 Paths Chibaku Tensei is an SPS technique and that Hagoromo and Hamura used this technique before the sealing of the Juubi.

      That doesn’t mean it’s power wasn’t used. That’s only your assumption. Naruto and sasuke resealed kaguya with some of her own power. You can’t outright proved juubi power was absent, the furthest you’ve gotten was lack of mention. You can’t even provide a second source of power that results having TSOs.!

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    • No theu didnt reseal her with her own power the resealed her with Hagoromo's power. The same power he had before he was a Juubichuriki. The same power Naruto and Sasuke recieved after Hagoromo expelled the Juubi.

      Unless you can directly cite the manga or databooks it didnt happen.

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    • All this over Naruto's fancy final form, it's Six Paths Sage Mode with some Tailed Beast Chakras and Kurama thrown in there with the added touch of some limited edition TSB's (I say limited because Naruto doesn't seem to be able to make more after he lost all of them) what's there to really be confused about?

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    • Elveonora wrote: I don't get why people deny and are so against Hagoromo giving Asura power... the huge black orbs and avatar like thingy can't be manifestations of some own 'body power' (whatever that means) of Asura's because neither Hashirama nor Naruto, both having 'body power' of Asura/Hagoromo never displayed black orbs or avatar thingies... well, the latter did, but not because of his own 'body power' but because of Tailed Beasts and Hagoromo, so go figure.

      It's implicity stated Ashura awakened "Bodily Chakra" and that is what gave him the ability to combat Indra. Naruto is the only user of Six Paths Sage Mode, it's his own unique form that grans him Six Paths Sage Jutsu. It isn't a widespread method of utilizing Six Paths Sage Jutsu due to the unique circumstance in which he obtained it. The only other method of obtaining Six Paths Sage Jutsu given to us through the Manga and Databook is the use of "Six Paths: Ten-Tails Coffin Seal", becoming the Jinchuriki of the Ten-Tails. There is no third method of obtaining Six Paths Sage Chakra detailed to us. Even the logical assumption of how to obtain it is debunked by the story. Madara who had awakened Six Paths Chakra didn't bloom Six Paths Sage Chakra when he absorbed Hashirama's own Sage Chakra. It isn't even clear wether Kaguya gained it from consuming the Chakra Fruit or becoming one with the Divine Tree.

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    • Guess it didn't help that the stupid filler regarding the Chakra fruit and Divine Tree in relation to Kaguya only made the confusion worse although I guess filler is generally regarded as non-canon anyway.

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    • Littlegen wrote:

      It's implicity stated Ashura awakened "Bodily Chakra" and that is what gave him the ability to combat Indra. Naruto is the only user of Six Paths Sage Mode, it's his own unique form that grans him Six Paths Sage Jutsu. It isn't a widespread method of utilizing Six Paths Sage Jutsu due to the unique circumstance in which he obtained it. The only other method of obtaining Six Paths Sage Jutsu given to us through the Manga and Databook is the use of "Six Paths: Ten-Tails Coffin Seal", becoming the Jinchuriki of the Ten-Tails. There is no third method of obtaining Six Paths Sage Chakra detailed to us. Even the logical assumption of how to obtain it is debunked by the story. Madara who had awakened Six Paths Chakra didn't bloom Six Paths Sage Chakra when he absorbed Hashirama's own Sage Chakra. It isn't even clear wether Kaguya gained it from consuming the Chakra Fruit or becoming one with the Divine Tree.

      6 Paths Chakra+Sage mode doesnt automatically result in SP Senjutsu. Sasuke harnessed all the Bijuu chakra in combination with his own chakra but Indra's Arrow isnt SPS.

      TT Coffin Seal isnt the only other way to achieve SPS

      Hagoromo and Hamura had SPS before sealing the Juubi.

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    • LegionZero wrote: 6 Paths Chakra+Sage mode doesnt automatically result in SP Senjutsu. Sasuke harnessed all the Bijuu chakra in combination with his own chakra but Indra's Arrow isnt SPS.

      TT Coffin Seal isnt the only other way to achieve SPS

      Hagoromo and Hamura had SPS before sealing the Juubi.

      That's what I said.

      Then what is? Unless there is a stated way of obtaining Six Paths Sage Mode besides Ten-Tails Coffin Seal, there really isn't.

      How?

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    • Sasuke never sealed the merged chakra inside himself. His susanoo isn’t his actually body Nor is it the husk of the juubi.

      Secondly, there is no example of sage mode being achieved prior to senjutsu being gathered. Why people would suggest kishimoto threw away the mechanics of sage mode during the war is beyond me.

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    • @Hagoromo

      The issue is I'm trying to say that six paths sage mode does NOT equal six paths senjutsu. Naruto is the only user of six paths sage mode. But in addition to six paths sage mode, he also has six paths senjutsu. Madara and obito never had six paths sage mode. They had six paths senjutsu. Naruto however had both six paths senjutsu and six paths sage mode. Please read this carefully. on this very wiki only naruto is listed as a user of six paths sage mode, check the article. six paths senjutsu is a separate list, which includes naruto and the other TTJ.

      Naruto in base can use six paths sage mode after meeting hagomoro. This is the form in which he kicked the tSo, and used lava style rasenshuriken vs juudara. he doesn't need the juubi chakra to use six paths sage mode. The juubi chakra when, kneaded, grants him is six paths senjutsu kurama chakra mode + truth seeking balls.

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    • Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Sasuke never sealed the merged chakra inside himself. His susanoo isn’t his actually body Nor is it the husk of the juubi.

      Sasuke never merged Juugo's chakra within himself to apply Senjutsu to Susanoo

      Naruto could freely add his Senjutsu chakra into his and Minato's giant Tailed Beast Rasengan

      Naruto never merged the Bijuu chakra withing himself, they all existed as seperate entities within himself.

      If all it takes is using all their chakra at once then Indra's arrow should have had SPS applied to it, because it was created by combining the chakra's of all the bijuu together. Kurama confirmed that he was bombining all of their chakra into one and channeling into Susanoo as if it was the Gedo.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Secondly, there is no example of sage mode being achieved prior to senjutsu being gathered. Why people would suggest kishimoto threw away the mechanics of sage mode during the war is beyond me.

      Becoming the Juubichuriki or Psuedo-Juubichuriki does.

      @littlegen: Hagoromo and Hamura learned it. They used 6 Paths Chibaku Tensei (a 6 Paths Senjutsu ability) to seal the Juubi. Why is this so hard to understand? The databook and manga both confirm this.

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    • @LegionZero

      I feel like hagomoro and hamura had six paths senjutsu because of genetic purity. they directly got their mother's chakra. kaguya is the juubi.

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    • @combat: Hagoromo and Hamura were half human, they are not genetically pure. Half their geneology didnt even have the ability to create chakra. Their chakra is not identicle to Kaguya's and they didnt receive her full powers/abilities.

      They still didnt need to become host of her or her chakra to attain SPS. No one sought their bodies to attain chakra like the Juubi and recreating Hagoromo's chakra doesnt give the user Juubi qualities. Hagrormo's chakra alone isnt enough to obtain SPS.

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    • True forgot they were half human.

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    • CombatIQmatters wrote: @Hagoromo

      The issue is I'm trying to say that six paths sage mode does NOT equal six paths senjutsu. Naruto is the only user of six paths sage mode. But in addition to six paths sage mode, he also has six paths senjutsu. Madara and obito never had six paths sage mode. They had six paths senjutsu. Naruto however had both six paths senjutsu and six paths sage mode. Please read this carefully. on this very wiki only naruto is listed as a user of six paths sage mode, check the article. six paths senjutsu is a separate list, which includes naruto and the other TTJ.

      Naruto in base can use six paths sage mode after meeting hagomoro. This is the form in which he kicked the tSo, and used lava style rasenshuriken vs juudara. he doesn't need the juubi chakra to use six paths sage mode. The juubi chakra when, kneaded, grants him is six paths senjutsu kurama chakra mode + truth seeking balls.

      You can’t say Naruto is in base if he’s in rsm that’s a contradiction. Second his level of power increasing as madara noticed debunks him being in rsm. Third that increased power was confirmed to be rikudo senjutsu. Fourthly, that rikudo senjutsu was always achieved prior to both times he entered rsm. Fithly, yes rikudo senjutsu and rikudo sage mode are different, that doesn’t change the fact that the sage mode requires the presence of the senjutsu. Naruto waited, he didn’t immediately enter rsm, he waited. Why? Because his level of rikudo senjutsu was not enough to maintain rsm. Madara a d obito had the entire biju inside them, they had plenty of juubi chakra, where as Naruto was just able to make enough to last for his next 2 major fights.

      Lastly, hagoromo himself, the same man than handed Naruto rsm, he specifially took notice to Naruto having each biju chakra inside him. Knowing this, he then gives him rsm. Why? Because not only is he worthy of it, but with the chakra from each biju he can create the necessary chakra to use it.

      So if hagoromo acknowldge the biju as a requirement why isn’t this site? You are free to fact check anything stated. I’m sure it’s all there(in above posts), just don’t deny the evidence when it’s provided.

      Being a juubi jinchuriki doesn’t make you a rikudo sage, madara nor obito are sages. That specific sagehood is given by hagoromo, but this in no way changes the fact that being a juubi jinchuriki is a necessary step to enter rsm. So while they didn’t get a meeting with hagoromo to receive the mode it self, they aquired the power needed to enter rsm. Which is also what Naruto did, he acquired the power to enter rsm by having all 9 biju. This is acknowledged in manga by gyuki shukaku kurama and hagoromo himself.

      LegionZero wrote: @combat: Hagoromo and Hamura were half human, they are not genetically pure. Half their geneology didnt even have the ability to create chakra. Their chakra is not identicle to Kaguya's and they didnt receive her full powers/abilities.

      They still didnt need to become host of her or her chakra to attain SPS. No one sought their bodies to attain chakra like the Juubi and recreating Hagoromo's chakra doesnt give the user Juubi qualities. Hagrormo's chakra alone isnt enough to obtain SPS.

      Firstly, kaguya became the juubi long after her children were into adulthood. They were each given significant amount of kaguya’ power at birth. This is mainly why she went on the rampage she did, to get that lost chakra back. Even during her war arc revival she was scouting Sasuke and Naruto for their(her) chakra. She never regained that lost power. She was still weakened throughout the war arc because of this.

      Now as for you claim that they didn’t need her chakra to achieved rikudo senjutsu, you can’t prove that. It’s a fair guess, but it’ll only be that. You won’t go into detail as to how they achieved it simply because you don’t know, much like the rest of us regarding the rikudo seals. Like I said earlier if you can prove it, it can’t and won’t take away from my point. You don’t always have to be a jinchuriki to achieve the power of a jinchuriki. Naruto is proof of that since he handed out kurama cloaks and since he achieved rikudo senjutsu, the juubi’ chakra, without the physical juubi being inside him.

      More importantly six paths of obito solidifies this. He gather previous jinchuriki and siphoned their former biju’ power back into them.

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    • Yeah I still don't get how that worked, the reanimated Jinchuriki can host their previous tailed beasts but a reanimated Madara can't become a Jinchuriki because he's reanimated?

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    • The Jinchuriki weren’t reanimated, were they? They were Obito’s six paths bodies.

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    • Vladosaurus wrote: The Jinchuriki weren’t reanimated, were they? They were Obito’s six paths bodies.

      ...We literally see Kabuto summon them out of coffins.

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    • Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      You can’t say Naruto is in base if he’s in rsm that’s a contradiction.

      SPSM isnt signified by the cloak. The cloak is an extension of SPSM. The eyes the yellow cross pattern eyes signify SPSM.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Second his level of power increasing as madara noticed debunks him being in rsm.

      No it doesnt it just means he hadnt figured out exactly what the power up was until then.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Fithly, yes rikudo senjutsu and rikudo sage mode are different, that doesn’t change the fact that the sage mode requires the presence of the senjutsu.

      No SPSM is a form of SP Senjutsu. The only difference between the form used by Obito/Madara and Naruto was the method used to get there and how they look.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Naruto waited, he didn’t immediately enter rsm, he waited. Why? Because his level of rikudo senjutsu was not enough to maintain rsm.

      Your assumption.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Madara a d obito had the entire biju inside them, they had plenty of juubi chakra, where as Naruto was just able to make enough to last for his next 2 major fights.

      Naruto never mixed the chakras within himself all 9 Bijuu chakras remained as seperate entities.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Lastly, hagoromo himself, the same man than handed Naruto rsm, he specifially took notice to Naruto having each biju chakra inside him. Knowing this, he then gives him rsm. Why? Because not only is he worthy of it, but with the chakra from each biju he can create the necessary chakra to use it.

      Hagoromo was going to give him power either way.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      So if hagoromo acknowldge the biju as a requirement why isn’t this site? You are free to fact check anything stated. I’m sure it’s all there(in above posts), just don’t deny the evidence when it’s provided.

      He didnt. He acknowledged that Naruto was that Naruto was the boy of prophacy because he made friend with the Bijuu and that he had the desire to protect others. Hagoromo never said he could recieve any power BECAUSE of the Bijuu's presence. Neither did the databook.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Being a juubi jinchuriki doesn’t make you a rikudo sage, madara nor obito are sages. That specific sagehood is given by hagoromo, but this in now way changes the fact that being a juubi jinchuriki is a necessary step to enter rsm. So while they didn’t get a meeting with hagoromo to receive the mode it self, they aquired the power needed to enter rsm. Which is also what Naruto did, he acquired the power to enter rsm by having all 9 biju. This is acknowledged in manga by gyuki shukaku kurama and hagoromo himself.

      Being able to use senjutsu chakra makes one a Sage. Senjutsu literally translates to Sage technique.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Firstly, kaguya became the juubi long after her children were into adulthood. They were each given significant amount of kaguya’ power at birth.

      This isnt literal. They received chakra from her but they never depleted/divided her own supply of chakra. Giving birth has never reduced the parents chakra supply. Ever.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      This is mainly why she went on the rampage she did, to get that lost chakra back. Even during her war arc revival she was scouting Sasuke and Naruto for their(her) chakra. She never regained that lost power. She was still weakened throughout the war arc because no of this.

      She rampaged because she was selfish and paranoid.

      She was weakened because she was missing portions of each Bijuu, her actual chakra pool.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Now as for you claim that they didn’t need her chakra to achieved rikudo senjutsu, you can’t prove that. It’s a fair guess, but it’ll only be that. You won’t go into detail as to how they achieved it simply because you don’t know, much like the rest of us regarding the rikudo seals. Like I said earlier if you can prove it, it can’t and won’t take away from my point.

      Because they didnt have Juubi chakra. The Juubi was a seperate entity from them and they cant take chakra from the Juubi. The Juubi absorbs all energy it comes into contact with, so they couldnt steal its chakra and it wouldnt give its chakra to to them. If the series doesnt tell us a certain event happened it didnt happen, and the series doesnt tell us they had juubi chakra prior to sealing the Juubi.

      The databook gives some info on the 6 Paths seals and none of it involves extranious healing abilities or any of the other feats you attribute to them.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      You don’t always have to be a jinchuriki to achieve the power of a jinchuriki. Naruto is proof of that since he handed out kurama cloaks and since he achieved rikudo senjutsu, the juubi’ chakra, without the physical juubi being inside him.

      Except he didnt have or make juubi chakra

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      More importantly six paths of obito solidifies this. He gather previous jinchuriki and siphoned their former biju’ power back into them.

      He didnt siphon them he released the Bijuu from Gedo and resealed them in their former Jinchuriki.

      Obito hadnt begun resurrecting the juubi while he had his 6PoP. It wasnt until after the Edo was released that he resealed them in the Juubi and began the revival process.

      @Starscream: Edo Madara didnt have true Rinnegan. At least 1 is necessary to truly control and contain the Juubi.

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    • The Databooks can be wrong or absent minded.

      Take the process of learning Senjutsu from the Toads. The manga [[1]] suggests the use of Toad Oil is the quicker shortcut to grasping the manipulation of Natural Energy. But the Databook[[2]] states it as if it's the method of learning Senjutsu.

      Manga > Databook

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    • @ littlegen: that page seems to be about Naruto's training specifically. It says that eventually a senjutsu user can gather nature energy tmwithout oil. It also says in the corner that simply sitting still is the 1st step to becoming one with nature, so its covering multiple ways to attain gather nature energy

      While the databooks are sometimes wrong nothing from the manga refutes what they say regarding SP Senjutsu/SP Chibaku Tensei/SPSM/Juubi

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    • @LegionZero

      Except it states that Sasuke is a user of the Technique where a prerequisite is the ability to use Six Paths Sage Jutsu. We both know he can't.

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    • I'm very confused now. Why would hagoromo give SPSM to naruto if it's the same thing he would have gotten from having all 9 tailed beast chakra inside of him. I believe SPSM is something completely different from mere six paths senjutsu, a separate power-up hagoromo gave to naruto that doesn't depend on the tailed beast chakra, but still nonetheless gives him the benefits that naruto's regular sage mode did, being able to actually harm the defenses of a TTJ. Having all the tailed beasts inside of naruto allowed him to use a chakra cloak that was similiar to that of a TTJ and gave him six paths senjutsu which could be used to create truth seeking orbs. That's the only thing he has in common with obito and madara. Obito and madara didn't have SPSM, they aren't listed as users of it.

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    • @littlegen: They touched her with the seals but when they did the seals went back to Hagoromo who actavited the jutsu

      Madara/Obito's form is called the Ten Tails Coffin Seal. Its a different way to achieve 6 Paths Senjutsu. Like how Sage Mode and Sage Transformation are different ways to achieve Senjutsu

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    • LegionZero wrote: @littlegen: They touched her with the seals but when they did the seals went back to Hagoromo who actavited the jutsu

      Madara/Obito's form is called the Ten Tails Coffin Seal. Its a different way to achieve 6 Paths Senjutsu. Like how Sage Mode and Sage Transformation are different ways to achieve Senjutsu

      So Sasuke isn't a user of the Technique, contradicting the Databook.

      Six Paths Sage Mode and Ten-Tails Coffin are two ways of achieving the same power. Madara even calls it Sage Mode and the Tailed Beasts "Sage Power" in the Manga[[1]].

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    • Littlegen wrote:

      So Sasuke isn't a user of the Technique, contradicting the Databook.

      I didnt say he was...

      Littlegen wrote:

      Six Paths Sage Mode and Ten-Tails Coffin are two ways of achieving the same power. Madara even calls it Sage Mode and the Tailed Beasts "Sage Power" in the Manga[[1]].

      Thats what i said....

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    • LegionZero wrote: SPSM isnt signified by the cloak. The cloak is an extension of SPSM. The eyes the yellow cross pattern eyes signify SPSM.

      This is a false equivalence. Eyes holds no significance to rsm. Literally nothing in canon states it’s relevance to the form. Whereas I can and have pointed out multiple acknowledgements of rikudo senjutsu aka juubi chakra being required.

      LegionZero wrote: No it doesnt it just means he hadnt figured out exactly what the power up was until then.

      Madara realized only once he entered rsm that Naruto had been raising his amount of juubi chakra. There’s nothing you have to debunk this. There is no other power that it can be. You can’t restate the half of hagoromo chakra claim(again) because adult Naruto retaining rikudo chakra debunks that. You are left with no other option but to admit Naruto waited on the production of juubi chakra to enter rsm. We know what that chakra does, we know what it looks like. Naruto had every indication on top of madara outright stating Naruto achieve the juubi’ chakra. It is required, and he got it from the 9 biju. Even the shikamaru novel confirms that having those fragmented biju chakra with kurama made Naruto essential as juubi jinchuriki. Confirming outright the source of that finite amount of juubi chakra.

      LegionZero wrote:

      No SPSM is a form of SP Senjutsu. The only difference between the form used by Obito/Madara and Naruto was the method used to get there and how they look.

      You clearly don’t understand the dynamic between senjutsu and sage mode. Sage mode is not a form of senjutsu. You will never find that sentence in canon. The right way to explain senjutsu and sage mode is to say that senjutsu is sage chakra. Therefore in order to become a sage one must have sage chakra. Rikudo sages in this regard, are no different. By Naruto essentially becoming a juubi jinchuriki, he was able to attain enough rikudo senjutsu to enter rsm.

      LegionZero wrote:

      Your assumption.

      It was shown that he waited, he saved guy, then used rasenshuriken then stopped to sense Sasuke. If he didn’t need to wait why not spawn those TSOs asap? Why not start flying right away? It’s simply because he couldn’t do that without the juubi’ power. Which I confirmed that he had during the war thanks to the scans from shikamaru’ novel.

      LegionZero wrote:

      Naruto never mixed the chakras within himself all 9 Bijuu chakras remained as seperate entities.

      Kurama states the juubi is the aggregate of each biju’ chakra. For Naruto to be considered a juubi jinchuriki, that process must’ve been replicated, albeit on a smaller scale.

      LegionZero wrote:

      Hagoromo was going to give him power either way.

      There was reason for him gaining power, hagoromo doesn’t just give it away to anyone. Naruto received rsm because he was worthy and had the right Naruto was able to use rsm because he was essentially a juubi jinchuriki. Acknowledged(in different ways) by the biju, hagoromo, the novel, the databook. As hagoromo put it, ‘a lot of conditions have lined up’, those are the conditions. Rsm’ conditions, rikudo seal conditions. Those are hagoromo’ own words explained in full.

      LegionZero wrote:

      He didnt. He acknowledged that Naruto was that Naruto was the boy of prophacy because he made friend with the Bijuu and that he had the desire to protect others. Hagoromo never said he could recieve any power BECAUSE of the Bijuu's presence. Neither did the databook.

      Here’s a quick sequence of events, Hagoromo says Naruto has met multiple conditions. Kurama says a lot has happened and now Naruto has chakra from each biju. Kurama then interprets this as Naruto fulfilling a prophecy. Hagoromo agreed. By hagoromo agreeing to kurama, he’s also acknowledging the presence of all 9 biju chakra inside Naruto. Case closed.

      LegionZero wrote:

      Being able to use senjutsu chakra makes one a Sage. Senjutsu literally translates to Sage technique.

      Orochimaru developer his curse mark after experimenting on anko using his own senjutsu. Orochimaru is not a sage. You are debunked. Just having the chakra of a sage doesn’t make you a sage, more is required. Proven by kabuto during his fight against edo Itachi.

      LegionZero wrote:

      This isnt literal. They received chakra from her but they never depleted/divided her own supply of chakra. Giving birth has never reduced the parents chakra supply. Ever.

      Kaguya rampaged for nothing confirmed. Smh. Her lost power was because of the birth of her sons. Just like kurama was split in two equal halves, her own power became fragmented.

      LegionZero wrote: She rampaged because she was selfish and paranoid.

      She was weakened because she was missing portions of each Bijuu, her actual chakra pool.

      She was missing more than biju chakra during her revival. She was missing much of hagoromo’ chakra and and hamura’ chakra. Hagoromo just gave hisnpowwr to Sasuke and Naruto, recognizing this she immediately lusted after her lost power.

      LegionZero wrote: Because they didnt have Juubi chakra. The Juubi was a seperate entity from them and they cant take chakra from the Juubi. The Juubi absorbs all energy it comes into contact with, so they couldnt steal its chakra and it wouldnt give its chakra to to them. If the series doesnt tell us a certain event happened it didnt happen, and the series doesnt tell us they had juubi chakra prior to sealing the Juubi.

      The databook gives some info on the 6 Paths seals and none of it involves extranious healing abilities or any of the other feats you attribute to them.

      You lack context. You can’t outright state the seals didn’t have rikudo senjutsu. You don’t know that because it remains largely unexplained. You are guessing, as I expected you would.

      LegionZero wrote: Except he didnt have or make juubi chakra

      I addressed this already. Seek out that juubi jinchuriki link above. Naruto in fact had juubi chakra.

      LegionZero wrote: He didnt siphon them he released the Bijuu from Gedo and resealed them in their former Jinchuriki.

      Obito hadnt begun resurrecting the juubi while he had his 6PoP. It wasnt until after the Edo was released that he resealed them in the Juubi and began the revival process.

      @Starscream: Edo Madara didnt have true Rinnegan. At least 1 is necessary to truly control and contain the Juubi.

      You’re right about that, but it doesn’t take away form my point because as pointed out by kakashi, the biju were pooling their chakra together for a bijudama.


      Maybe if I link to it I won’t be flagged for spamming.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Naruto was(essentially) also a juubi jinchuriki.[1]

      This confirms my point and proves me right. Naruto being the juubi jinchuriki gave him access to juubi chakra and is how he awakened rikudo senjutsu. This power was present both times Naruto entered rsm. It is a requirement to enter the mode.

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    • This is going in circles.

      Here are the two main issues:

      1.You keep saying the eyes bare no signifiance as if kishimoto drew it there for some aesthetic preference. The change in eye pattern is there to indicate that naruto was already in rsm. if he wasn't in rsm , how did he kick the tso without any adverse effects? It's obvious that he doesn't need to be using his bijuuchakra/ bijuucloak to be in rsm. we have seen jugo have a similiar eye pattern when he enters his own variant of sage mode.

      2. naruto was a juubi jinchruki, but he was also only user of rsm (again obito and madara aren't users of rsm, they are ONLY user of mere six path senjutsu. clearly, hagoromo himself has to grant you that mode, so its completely different from ridoku senjutsu, which is what gave naruto, obito, and madara their bijuu cloak properties and truth seeking orbs. And I see you keep equating rsm to ridoku senjutsu when they are different. where it was stated that hagoromo gave rsm to naruto because he has the juubi chakra? without rsm, naruto would still have ridoku senjutsu and be the same as madara and obito, but he wouldn't have the change in eye pattern.

      Please explain.

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    • CombatIQmatters wrote: This is going in circles.

      Here are the two main issues:

      1.You keep saying the eyes bare no signifiance as if kishimoto drew it there for some aesthetic preference. The change in eye pattern is there to indicate that naruto was already in rsm. if he wasn't in rsm , how did he kick the tso without any adverse effects? It's obvious that he doesn't need to be using his bijuuchakra/ bijuucloak to be in rsm. we have seen jugo have a similiar eye pattern when he enters his own variant of sage mode.

      2. naruto was a juubi jinchruki, but he was also only user of rsm (again obito and madara aren't users of rsm, they are ONLY user of mere six path senjutsu. clearly, hagoromo himself has to grant you that mode, so its completely different from ridoku senjutsu, which is what gave naruto, obito, and madara their bijuu cloak properties and truth seeking orbs. And I see you keep equating rsm to ridoku senjutsu when they are different. where it was stated that hagoromo gave rsm to naruto because he has the juubi chakra? without rsm, naruto would still have ridoku senjutsu and be the same as madara and obito, but he wouldn't have the change in eye pattern.

      Please explain.


      1. Repeated argument. You asked an important question, how did Naruto kick the TSOs if he wasn’t in rsm. I answered this in the OP. The eyes are significant to sage mode, not rsm. Lack of sage mode eyes doesn’t mean they are rsm eyes. There is no confirmation of what rsm eyes look like. Naruto’s had those same eyes with only kurama’ power and sage mode. They don’t mean anything to rsm because there is nothing in canon you can point to verifying the contrary. It was a guess made at a time where less was known. This post is here to update to topics using all that we know now. Which is much more than years ago presumably when that theory got popular. If you believe eyes are relevant to the form, prove it. I’m not asking you to point to a form other than rsm. No false equivalences. Just show me the proof of rsm. If you have that proof, I’ll concede.

      2. You have under stand the dynamic between rsm and rikudo senjutsu. Rsm is powered by rikudo senjutsu, just like sage mode isnpowerrd by senjutsu. No one is disputing who gave Naruto rsm. This about what pier is eeded to use it. Why would you even mention this when the OP specifically clarifies this. You say this is going in circles because you keep returning to questions and things I’ve already explained.

      Unless you can point out any other sage mode that is used without senjutsu, you must concede that rikudo senjutsu is required to enter rsm. You also must concede to the novel stating Naruto was a juubi jinchuriki, which we all know leads to rikudo senjutsu. Going back back and looking at the timeline would reveal that Naruto in fact spent time kneading juubi chakra prior to entering rsm.

      If you get that then we are clear. I also suggest reading the OP again.

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    • Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      This is a false equivalence. Eyes holds no significance to rsm. Literally nothing in canon states it’s relevance to the form. Whereas I can and have pointed out multiple acknowledgements of rikudo senjutsu aka juubi chakra being required.

      Nothing in canon states red slit eyes are a sign of Naruto accessing Kurama chakra but we always knew thats exactly what it was because they only showed up when he used Kuramas chakra.

      Since they yellow cross shaped eyes ONLY apoear with SPSM they are clearly related.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Madara realized only once he entered rsm that Naruto had been raising his amount of juubi chakra. There’s nothing you have to debunk this. There is no other power that it can be.

      It was never ever stated or shown that Naruto had Juubi chakra. All the tailed beasts remained as seperate entities inside of him.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      You can’t restate the half of hagoromo chakra claim(again) because adult Naruto retaining rikudo chakra debunks that. You are left with no other option but to admit Naruto waited on the production of juubi chakra to enter rsm. We know what that chakra does, we know what it looks like. Naruto had every indication on top of madara outright stating Naruto achieve the juubi’ chakra. It is required, and he got it from the 9 biju. Even the shikamaru novel confirms that having those fragmented biju chakra with kurama made Naruto essential as juubi jinchuriki. Confirming outright the source of that finite amount of juubi chakra.

      Madara never said he had Juubi chakra. No one ever said he had Juubi chakra

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      You clearly don’t understand the dynamic between senjutsu and sage mode. Sage mode is not a form of senjutsu. You will never find that sentence in canon. The right way to explain senjutsu and sage mode is to say that senjutsu is sage chakra. Therefore in order to become a sage one must have sage chakra. Rikudo sages in this regard, are no different. By Naruto essentially becoming a juubi jinchuriki, he was able to attain enough rikudo senjutsu to enter rsm.

      Users of Sage Transformation are considered Sages but not Sage Mode users. One doesnt have to have Sage Mode to be a Sage. They need to be able use Senjutsu chakra.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      It was shown that he waited, he saved guy, then used rasenshuriken then stopped to sense Sasuke. If he didn’t need to wait why not spawn those TSOs asap? Why not start flying right away? It’s simply because he couldn’t do that without the juubi’ power. Which I confirmed that he had during the war thanks to the scans from shikamaru’ novel.

      He waited for Sasuke to show up because they were gonna fight him together

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Kurama states the juubi is the aggregate of each biju’ chakra. For Naruto to be considered a juubi jinchuriki, that process must’ve been replicated, albeit on a smaller scale.

      Hes not considered the juubichuriki by anyone as far as i can remember

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      There was reason for him gaining power, hagoromo doesn’t just give it away to anyone. Naruto received rsm because he was worthy and had the right Naruto was able to use rsm because he was essentially a juubi jinchuriki. Acknowledged(in different ways) by the biju, hagoromo, the novel, the databook. As hagoromo put it, ‘a lot of conditions have lined up’, those are the conditions. Rsm’ conditions, rikudo seal conditions. Those are hagoromo’ own words explained in full.

      Databook says SPSM was from Hagoromo and no one/nothing else. Point blank, end of story.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Here’s a quick sequence of events, Hagoromo says Naruto has met multiple conditions. Kurama says a lot has happened and now Naruto has chakra from each biju. Kurama then interprets this as Naruto fulfilling a prophecy. Hagoromo agreed. By hagoromo agreeing to kurama, he’s also acknowledging the presence of all 9 biju chakra inside Naruto. Case closed.

      Just because it happened quickly doesnt mean what you claim happened. Kurama said its time for the prophecy and Hagoromo said yea. Nothing in the conversation even suggests that the bijuu would be responsible for anything.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Orochimaru developer his curse mark after experimenting on anko using his own senjutsu. Orochimaru is not a sage. You are debunked. Just having the chakra of a sage doesn’t make you a sage, more is required. Proven by kabuto during his fight against edo Itachi.

      LOL Orochimaru's curse marks were developed from Juugos bodily fluids that react to senjutsu chakra(Sage Transformation). Orochimaru's Senjutsu chakra is in his Curse Marks and they cause the user to undergo Sage Transformation.

      I didnt say having Senjutsu Chakra makes one a Sage. Being able to use it makes one a Sage. Orochimaru can make Senjutsu chakra but he cant use it. Thats why hes not a Sage.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Kaguya rampaged for nothing confirmed. Smh. Her lost power was because of the birth of her sons. Just like kurama was split in two equal halves, her own power became fragmented.

      Please read the manga and the databooks. They say she was selfish and delusional and believed that any chakra belonged to her because she was the first to have it. If her chakra was split evenly between them she would have no chakra and then wouldnt be able to rule anymore.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      You lack context. You can’t outright state the seals didn’t have rikudo senjutsu. You don’t know that because it remains largely unexplained. You are guessing, as I expected you would.

      Lack context? Really. The Databook says they are for activating SP Chibaku Tensei. NOTHING ELSE. No other powers were attributed to the seals in the manga or databooks. Naruto's healing others was attributed to Yin-Yang release by the databooks.

      Either provide evidence for the manga that the seals did anything else besides activate SP Chibaku Tensei from the manga or databook or dont bother talking about them again.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      I addressed this already. Seek out that juubi jinchuriki link above. Naruto in fact had juubi chakra.

      If it wasnt stated/shown in the manga/databook then it didnt happen. Provide page numbers or databook entries.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Maybe if I link to it I won’t be flagged for spamming.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Naruto was(essentially) also a juubi jinchuriki.[1]

      This confirms my point and proves me right. Naruto being the juubi jinchuriki gave him access to juubi chakra and is how he awakened rikudo senjutsu. This power was present both times Naruto entered rsm. It is a requirement to enter the mode.

      It says "in a manner of speaking". "In a manner of speaking" means that whatever is being said isnt literally true. Naruto was not literally the 10 Tails jinchuriki because he never combined the chakras into one.

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    • LegionZero wrote: It was never ever stated or shown that Naruto had Juubi chakra. All the tailed beasts remained as seperate entities inside of him.

      Naruto recreating the Ten-Tails Chakra doesn't require him merging the tailed Beasts. He simply needs to meld his Chakra with all of their own, recreating the Ten-Tail's power by acting as a perfect Jinchuriki for them simultaneously would allow him to blossom Six Paths Sage Power.


      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      You clearly don’t understand the dynamic between senjutsu and sage mode. Sage mode is not a form of senjutsu. You will never find that sentence in canon. The right way to explain senjutsu and sage mode is to say that senjutsu is sage chakra. Therefore in order to become a sage one must have sage chakra. Rikudo sages in this regard, are no different. By Naruto essentially becoming a juubi jinchuriki, he was able to attain enough rikudo senjutsu to enter rsm.

      Sage Mode is attained once one can produce Sage Chakra. Sage Transformation is a means to attain Sage Mode though it happens at the biological level. It's two methods of achieving the same result, manifesting Sage Chakra. And Sage Jutsu is just the manipulation of that Sage Chakra.

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    • Littlegen wrote:

      Naruto recreating the Ten-Tails Chakra doesn't require him merging the tailed Beasts. He simply needs to meld his Chakra with all of their own, recreating the Ten-Tail's power by acting as a perfect Jinchuriki for them simultaneously would allow him to blossom Six Paths Sage Power.

      It does require merging the Tailed Beasts. This is why Madara/Obito went through so much trouble to seal them in the Gedo and revive the Juubi before becoming its Jinchuriki.

      Littlegen wrote:

      Sage Mode is attained once one can produce Sage Chakra. Sage Transformation is a means to attain Sage Mode though it happens at the biological level. It's two methods of achieving the same result, manifesting Sage Chakra. And Sage Jutsu is just the manipulation of that Sage Chakra.

      Kinda sort of. Sage Transformation doesnt achieve Sage Mode. Its a seperate form of Senjutsu with unique applications and abilities.

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    • Wrong, Sage Transformation users ARE Sage Mode users, this was clarified a while ago.

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    • LegionZero wrote: It does require merging the Tailed Beasts. This is why Madara/Obito went through so much trouble to seal them in the Gedo and revive the Juubi before becoming its Jinchuriki.

      That's a forceful method of combining the Tailed Beats' power. Everytime they're depicted while in their aggregate form you can still see their individual forms twisted together in a mass of Chakra. It is just their Chakra melded together.

      LegionZero wrote: Kinda sort of. Sage Transformation doesnt achieve Sage Mode. Its a seperate form of Senjutsu with unique applications and abilities.

      Sage Transformation is a reaction the body undergoes at the presence of Sage Chakra. It's Sage Mode in another form once it's fully activated.

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    • Littlegen wrote:

      That's a forceful method of combining the Tailed Beats' power. Everytime they're depicted while in their aggregate form you can still see their individual forms twisted together in a mass of Chakra. It is just their Chakra melded together.

      No its not. Please cite your source that they mixed in Naruto to form Juubi chakra.

      Littlegen wrote:

      Sage Transformation is a reaction the body undergoes at the presence of Sage Chakra. It's Sage Mode in another form once it's fully activated.

      Elveonora wrote: Wrong, Sage Transformation users ARE Sage Mode users, this was clarified a while ago.

      When/where because its not referred to as Sage Mode in the Databook.[[1]]

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    • LegionZero wrote: 1. Hes not considered the juubichuriki by anyone as far as i can remember

      2. Databook says SPSM was from Hagoromo and no one/nothing else. Point blank, end of story.

      3. Just because it happened quickly doesnt mean what you claim happened. Kurama said its time for the prophecy and Hagoromo said yea. Nothing in the conversation even suggests that the bijuu would be responsible for anything.

      4.LOL Orochimaru's curse marks were developed from Juugos bodily fluids that react to senjutsu chakra(Sage Transformation). Orochimaru's Senjutsu chakra is in his Curse Marks and they cause the user to undergo Sage Transformation.

      I didnt say having Senjutsu Chakra makes one a Sage. Being able to use it makes one a Sage. Orochimaru can make Senjutsu chakra but he cant use it. Thats why hes not a Sage.

      5. Please read the manga and the databooks. They say she was selfish and delusional and believed that any chakra belonged to her because she was the first to have it. If her chakra was split evenly between them she would have no chakra and then wouldnt be able to rule anymore.

      6.Lack context? Really. The Databook says they are for activating SP Chibaku Tensei. NOTHING ELSE. No other powers were attributed to the seals in the manga or databooks. Naruto's healing others was attributed to Yin-Yang release by the databooks.

      Either provide evidence for the manga that the seals did anything else besides activate SP Chibaku Tensei from the manga or databook or dont bother talking about them again.

      7. If it wasnt stated/shown in the manga/databook then it didnt happen. Provide page numbers or databook entries.

      8

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote: Maybe if I link to it I won’t be flagged for spamming.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Naruto was(essentially) also a juubi jinchuriki.[1]

      This confirms my point and proves me right. Naruto being the juubi jinchuriki gave him access to juubi chakra and is how he awakened rikudo senjutsu. This power was present both times Naruto entered rsm. It is a requirement to enter the mode.

      It says "in a manner of speaking". "In a manner of speaking" means that whatever is being said isnt literally true. Naruto was not literally the 10 Tails jinchuriki because he never combined the chakras into one.

      1/2/3/7/8: You make all those claims yet when you get proven wrong you run to semantics. Well here’s more of that same quote.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote: 4. You are only proving my point. Obito and madara were juubi jinchuriki that was their source of rikudo senjutsu. Well guess what, Naruto was(essentially) also a juubi jinchuriki.[2] That means his source of rikudo senjutsu was similar to theirs. Similar in that they each had gained all 9 biju chakra. Those 9 chakra were acquired each aquired without any help from hagoromo. The mode itself only works with juubi’ chakra. Which is why Naruto waited until enough was produced so he can use it. Hagromo himself acknowledge the existence of all 9 biju inside Naruto. All this was stated in the OP.

      Never did I make the claim that Naruto had an actual juubi inside him during the war. In fact I warned you not to make that mistake.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote: Don’t mistake have juubi chakra for having the actual juubi inside him. Naruto did not have the actual juubi inside, he was simply able to recreate a fraction of its chakra. This is proven by the fact that he could still speak to individual biju throughout the fight with kaguya. So since he doesn’t actually have the juubi inside him, he doesn’t go through the same changes as obito or madara, </div> Or as littlegen said

      Littlegen wrote: Or, it could be due to the lack of the Gedo Statue. Naruto doesn't have the Gedo Statue and that could be attributed to why he doesn't resemble the other Ten-Tails Jinchuriki. He has the power of the Ten-Tails but not the actual Ten-Tails.

      Yet you make that very mistake. This is evidence that you are arguing in circles. At this point I’m expecting you to repeat this again sometime later in the the thread.

      Regardless, we’ve established several things as a baseline:

      •Rikudo senjutsu regardless of how you attain it looks the same.

      •Juubi jinchuriki gain juubi chakra which is rikudo senjutsu.

      •Naruto was essentially a juubi jinchuriki before he entered rsm meaning he also had rikudo senjutsu.

      •Sage modes don’t work without senjutsu. Rsm doesn’t work without rikudo senjutsu.

      As far as the OP is concerned, my work here is done. I will still address your other responses.

      4. Orochimaru uses his senjutsu for curse marks. He is a senjutsu user. Not a sage. He used it to store aspects of his mind in each user, letting him observe watch from their perspective. This was proven when anko was used to revive orochimaru.

      5. Hagromo power was split between his sons. Kaguya’ power was split between her sons. When Hagromo spoke with Naruto he mentions that parents don’t always pass power to their children. Well after hagoromo passed his power to Sasuke and Naruto he left the rest to them. Even when Sasuke wanted to kill the gokage, hagoromo did nothing. It was ultimately up to Naruto to stop him. This proves hagoromo was weakened.

      6. Each feat of Naruto healing gets credited to his hand. When questioned about his healing feats he confirms he did heal them and that he could do more, all while he looks down at only his hand. When he healed kakashi’ eye. His hand seal makes a sound effect. He was even about to explain the feat but was cut off by Sasuke before fully conveying the process. Naruto knows what he did, he used his rikudo seals. As for evidence, I provided that earlier.

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    • Hold on, Naruto's healing is because of yin-yang release and SPSM, not because of the sun seal.

      The data book for the six paths yang seal makes no mention of this "healing" power, yet this is mention in yin-yang release.After gaining SPSM Naruto gained yin-yang release, and in combination with the 2, he able to use his healing.

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    • @Hagoromo

      I read the OP. Hagoromo changed the rules when he gave naruto ridoku sage mode. All we know is that he gave him the ability to use it without relying on the bijuu chakra. You aren't understanding me, and it's not your fault, the terminology is very confusing to me.

      I can prove you are misunderstanding me, whereas I understand you: 1.You are saying that rsm requires ridoku senjutsu specifically from the 9 tailed beasts inside of him, when there is no proof of that. Naruto was using it without any bijuu cloak. Technically though, if you believe that hagormo got his six paths senjutsu not through learning but by stealing juubi chakra from kaguya during their fight, then technically it still traces back to the juubi, but in this case it was given through hagoromo.

      2. you are saying that rsm requires ridoku senjutsu. True, but no one said that hagoromo wasn't capable of providing this to naruto himself. why can't the chakra greater than kurama be hagoromo's chakra himself?

      3. you are saying that hagoromo gave him the mode, but he can only enter it under the condition that he has the chakra of all 9 bijuu within him. But this is redundant. all 9 bijuu inside of him would have already satisfied the condition of granting him six paths senjutsu, allowing him to use truth seeking orbs and giving him the modified bijuu cloak. so hagormo's rsm buff was something separate.


      4. You are saying that naruto was kneading chakra and building up to getting his bijuu cloak. That's a fine theory, but it could just as easily be that ridoku sage mode is an independent buff. He already had 6 paths senjutsu from being gifted it by hagoromo, just like sasuke was gifted hag's 6 paths chakra allowing him to accelerate the development of his rinnegan.

      In conclusion, All I'm saying is that naruto got two separate buffs. He got half of hagoromo's chakra which gave him 6 paths senjutsu and the ability to use 6 paths sage mode (Again, independent of bijuu chakra), then having all 9 bijuu gave him the modified kurama cloak plus truth seeking orbs.

      Well, I would have to do more spot checking, but where it was stated or shown that he isn't using six path sage mode in boruto or the movies?? I believe the eyes have relevance because well, they look like sage mode eyes. Isn't it reaching a bit to say that the eyes have no connection at all to his six paths age mode? It isn't frog sage mode, he didn't have a kurama cloak at the time, so if you rule those out, what else is left exactly? By your logic, he shouldn't have been able to kick away the tso because he wasn't in rsm yet at the time.

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    • @Hag0r0m0: page numbers and databook entries or bust

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    • @Hagoromo

      Vlad's statement kinda seals the deal imo. Look at my last post, as well as Vlad's. the fact that naruto healed guy in of itself proves he was in six paths sage mode, so it's the eyes lol. Combine that with my previous post, and I think it's clear.

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    • Vladosaurus wrote: Hold on, Naruto's healing is because of yin-yang release and SPSM, not because of the sun seal.

      The data book for the six paths yang seal makes no mention of this "healing" power, yet this is mention in yin-yang release.After gaining SPSM Naruto gained yin-yang release, and in combination with the 2, he able to use his healing.

      Juubi chakra grants yin yang release. Naruto achieved this prior to entering rsm. Naruto was already increasing his level of this power when he healed guy and dodged limbo as explained in the OP. All his ensuing healing feats happened post entering rsm, meaning he had even greater levels of this power. Rikudo senjutsu was always present, just in different amounts. Which proves hagoromo didn’t give rikudo senjutsu to him, he produced that power using the biju chakra. The novel even confirms that by having those 9 biju Naruto was basically a juubi jinchuriki.

      CombatIQmatters wrote: @Hagoromo

      I read the OP. Hagoromo changed the rules when he gave naruto ridoku sage mode. All we know is that he gave him the ability to use it without relying on the bijuu chakra. You aren't understanding me, and it's not your fault, the terminology is very confusing to me.

      I can prove you are misunderstanding me, whereas I understand you: 1.You are saying that rsm requires ridoku senjutsu specifically from the 9 tailed beasts inside of him, when there is no proof of that. Naruto was using it without any bijuu cloak. Technically though, if you believe that hagormo got his six paths senjutsu not through learning but by stealing juubi chakra from kaguya during their fight, then technically it still traces back to the juubi, but in this case it was given through hagoromo.

      2. you are saying that rsm requires ridoku senjutsu. True, but no one said that hagoromo wasn't capable of providing this to naruto himself. why can't the chakra greater than kurama be hagoromo's chakra himself?

      3. you are saying that hagoromo gave him the mode, but he can only enter it under the condition that he has the chakra of all 9 bijuu within him. But this is redundant. all 9 bijuu inside of him would have already satisfied the condition of granting him six paths senjutsu, allowing him to use truth seeking orbs and giving him the modified bijuu cloak. so hagormo's rsm buff was something separate.

      4. You are saying that naruto was kneading chakra and building up to getting his bijuu cloak. That's a fine theory, but it could just as easily be that ridoku sage mode is an independent buff. He already had 6 paths senjutsu from being gifted it by hagoromo, just like sasuke was gifted hag's 6 paths chakra allowing him to accelerate the development of his rinnegan.

      In conclusion, All I'm saying is that naruto got two separate buffs. He got half of hagoromo's chakra which gave him 6 paths senjutsu and the ability to use 6 paths sage mode (Again, independent of bijuu chakra), then having all 9 bijuu gave him the modified kurama cloak plus truth seeking orbs.

      Well, I would have to do more spot checking, but where it was stated or shown that he isn't using six path sage mode in boruto or the movies?? I believe the eyes have relevance because well, they look like sage mode eyes. Isn't it reaching a bit to say that the eyes have no connection at all to his six paths age mode? It isn't frog sage mode, he didn't have a kurama cloak at the time, so if you rule those out, what else is left exactly? By your logic, he shouldn't have been able to kick away the tso because he wasn't in rsm yet at the time.

      Hagoromo did not change any rules, nor did kishimoto(by implication). Hagoromo also didn’t give Naruto power to use without the biju. Everything hagoromo gave Naruto during the war was used with help from the biju. Rsm needed a certain level rikudo senjutsu. The hand seal needed less rikudo senjutsu than rsm for healing.

      As for you’re stance, I hear what you’re saying and it’s wrong. It’s wrong because for hokage Naruto retained hagoromo’ chakra, yet there are now sign of him using rikudo senjutsu. Also if you go back to that novel scans I linked to, you’ll see my stance is confirmed. There you’ll see a clear comparison between Obito hagoromo and Naruto. The common denominator being that they were each considered juubi jinchuriki. Which in turn granted obito Naruto and hagoromo rikudo senjutsu. Proving outright that hagoromo chakra alone doesn’t suffice for that power. The OP addresses this.

      Naruto got chakra from each biju, that was his method of attaining rikudo senjutsu. Hagoromo realized he had this potential and gave him the rsm to utilize the power. He also gave him rikudo yang power which required both rikudo yin power and rikudo senjutsu to reseal kaguya. Even on its own to heal kakashi, guy, and obito, Naruto still demonstrated the use of yin-yang release. This counter has been restated a few times now.

      As for boruto era, his design matches that of kcm Naruto and not of rsm Naruto. While you’re spot checking, be sure to look at a few key things. Staring with their backs. Whether their cloak activated or not, hokage Naruto’ back looks a lot like kcm naruto’, and nothing like rsm Naruto’. Same can be said about their stomachs(where the seal is), their shoulders and the backs of their hands. All of it makes hokage out to be using kcm or the equivalent since he now uses full kurama. But then theirs the eyes. Which is simply explained by the fact that just as Naruto can gather nature energy, so can the biju. Kurama proved this during naruto’ clash with Sasuke’ amped indra arrow. Right before the clash, Kurama gathered a massive amount of nature energy, ‘everything that’s available’. Which is far more than Naruto ever amassed at once on his own, yet he never gets those rings around his eyes. Hokage Naruto is simply doing the same thing. How do I know. Because hokage Naruto has used sage mode on its own, and the rings were present. Conclusion being if there are no rings around his eyes while Naruto is using senjutsu, it means that energy is being amassed by kurama. If there are rings present, Naruto himself is gathering the senjutsu. There you have it, you no longer have to cling to assumption that no rings around his eye automatically means rsm. It has been debunked.

      LegionZero wrote: @Hag0r0m0: page numbers and databook entries or bust

      What exactly are you asking for evidence of? And if I do happen to have the proof you’re requesting, will you then concede?

      CombatIQmatters wrote: @Hagoromo

      Vlad's statement kinda seals the deal imo. Look at my last post, as well as Vlad's. the fact that naruto healed guy in of itself proves he was in six paths sage mode, so it's the eyes lol. Combine that with my previous post, and I think it's clear.

      I already addressed his post.

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    • @Hagoromo

      Ridoku sage mode is the power of a juubi jinchuriki, that is agreed upon. It's confusing because madara and obito aren't listed as users of rsm, but in the manga madara says he is a ridoku sage. So my theory is, there are simply two different types of ridoku sage mode. The same term is being used to define different things, which is why I keep saying the terminology is confusing. But I think progress is being made to a better understanding for all here.So, basically what you are saying is that when naruto kicked the TSO, healed guy, and used SAGE ART:Lava Style rasenshuriken, he wasn't using ridoku sage mode. Ok, so if he wasn't using rsm, then what was he using? In order to use sage jutsu, you have to be in sage mode. Frog sage mode is denoted by horizontal frog slit on the pupil + pigmentation around the eyes. So, are you saying that naruto's eye pattern is indicative that he is using frog sage mode, but the rings aren't there because kurama gathered the chakra for him? Well, where is there precedent for that? Since when does naruto use BSM without using a chakra cloak, and since when does that result in a lack of pigmentation? Because when kurama chakra mode and sage mode are used together,(BSM) there is a vertical fox slit that is drawn over the horizonal frog slit, but the pigmentation is still there. this is the case even in the movie : the Last.

      Furthermore, When kurama gathered senjutsu chakra for naruto during the final battle with sasuke, well of course naruto doesn't have rings because he is already in ridoku sage mode. Ridoku sage mode would override the normal features. We see that he has the frog/kurama slits, but he lacks the pigmentation. when naruto is saving boruto from the bijuu bomb, he doesn't have those pigmentation rings as well. I concede that the lack of tomoe on the back and the design changes are a problem for my argument, but that could easily be due to the new author's inconsistency, plus ying and yang kurama chakra cloaks were different, as seen by minato's cloak vs naruto's so their hyrbid is weird. What I need from you now is proof that BSM naruto lacks pigmentation when kurama gathers the senjutsu, and this proof shouldn't include an example where naruto is verifiably already in six paths sage mode.

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    • Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Juubi chakra grants yin yang release. Naruto achieved this prior to entering rsm. Naruto was already increasing his level of this power when he healed guy and dodged limbo as explained in the OP. All his ensuing healing feats happened post entering rsm, meaning he had even greater levels of this power. Rikudo senjutsu was always present, just in different amounts. Which proves hagoromo didn’t give rikudo senjutsu to him, he produced that power using the biju chakra. The novel even confirms that by having those 9 biju Naruto was basically a juubi jinchuriki.

      The manga/databooks never made the connection between Juubi chakra and SPSM that you keep making

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Hagoromo did not change any rules, nor did kishimoto(by implication). Hagoromo also didn’t give Naruto power to use without the biju. Everything hagoromo gave Naruto during the war was used with help from the biju. Rsm needed a certain level rikudo senjutsu. The hand seal needed less rikudo senjutsu than rsm for healing.

      The Yin-Yang databook entry attributes Naruto's healing abilities to Yin-Yang Release. Nothing to do with the seal.

      Yin-Yang Release Databook Entry

      • having gained Hagoromo's power, Naruto was able to perfectly demonstrate the power of Yin and Yang release.[[1]]

      Sasuke Databook Entry

      • From the Rikudou Sennin, he awakened the Rinnegan and the key to the seal...[[2]]/

      6 Paths Chibaku Tensei Databook Entry

      • Six Paths Chibaku Tensei is invoked when two users simultaneously touch their target with the "Yin" and "Yang" seals.[[3]]

      Ch 681 p8

      • Zetsu talks about how powerful the seal used on Kaguya was and shows the marks on Naruto & Sasuke's hands

      Nothing about the having healing abilities anywhere.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Naruto got chakra from each biju, that was his method of attaining rikudo senjutsu. Hagoromo realized he had this potential and gave him the rsm to utilize the power. He also gave him rikudo yang power which required both rikudo yin power and rikudo senjutsu to reseal kaguya. Even on its own to heal kakashi, guy, and obito, Naruto still demonstrated the use of yin-yang release. This counter has been restated a few times now.

      The databook doesnt back this. The SPSM entry doesnt attribute SPSM to the Bijuu. It is attributed to Hagoromo. Hagoromo didnt attribute SPSM to the Bijuu in the manga

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      As for boruto era, his design matches that of kcm Naruto and not of rsm Naruto. While you’re spot checking, be sure to look at a few key things. Staring with their backs. Whether their cloak activated or not, hokage Naruto’ back looks a lot like kcm naruto’, and nothing like rsm Naruto’. Same can be said about their stomachs(where the seal is), their shoulders and the backs of their hands. All of it makes hokage out to be using kcm or the equivalent since he now uses full kurama. But then theirs the eyes. Which is simply explained by the fact that just as Naruto can gather nature energy, so can the biju. Kurama proved this during naruto’ clash with Sasuke’ amped indra arrow. Right before the clash, Kurama gathered a massive amount of nature energy, ‘everything that’s available’. Which is far more than Naruto ever amassed at once on his own, yet he never gets those rings around his eyes. Hokage Naruto is simply doing the same thing. How do I know. Because hokage Naruto has used sage mode on its own, and the rings were present. Conclusion being if there are no rings around his eyes while Naruto is using senjutsu, it means that energy is being amassed by kurama. If there are rings present, Naruto himself is gathering the senjutsu. There you have it, you no longer have to cling to assumption that no rings around his eye automatically means rsm. It has been debunked.

      "Debunked" Kurama Sage Mode has orange eyes, not yellow.

      Naruto didnt gather Nature Energy himself in The Last but he had the Orange Cross Eyes and Toad Sage pigments.

      CombatIQmatters wrote: @Hagoromo

      Ridoku sage mode is the power of a juubi jinchuriki, that is agreed upon. It's confusing because madara and obito aren't listed as users of rsm, but in the manga madara says he is a ridoku sage. So my theory is, there are simply two different types of ridoku sage mode. The same term is being used to define different things, which is why I keep saying the terminology is confusing.

      The problem with this is that Bijuu chakra was never mentioned to be a pre-req for any form of SP Senjutsu. Hagoromo/Hamura achieved SP Senjutsu prior to sealing Kaguya. Hagoromo retained SP Senjutsu after he expelled the 10 Tails.

      Naruto's SPSM is an ability given by Hagoromo and it is a unique form of SP Senjutsu. The databook says this many times. He also had SPSM active prior utilizing the Bijuu's chakra. This is made clear when he asked Son Goku to lend him chakra for his Rasenshuriken.

      The Juubi/10 Tails Coffin Seal is a shortcut to SP Senjutsu because the Juubi is a natural mix of 6 Paths Chakra and nature energy so the Jinchuriki gains this attribute as well.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      I concede that the lack of tomoe on the back and the design changes are a problem for my argument, but that could easily be due to the new author's inconsistency, plus ying and yang kurama chakra cloaks were different, as seen by minato's cloak vs naruto's so their hyrbid is weird.

      The cloak Naruto had in 4SWW doesnt appear to be the same as cloak as KCM. It doesnt make his skin glow and it has different markings.

      My theory is that this 4SWW cloak manifests because of the other 8 Tailed Beasts chakra.

      It mimics the Coffin Seal Senjutsu's effects on clothes, hair, and has the tomoe and symbol on the back. Because Naruto doesnt truly have the 10 Tails, the cloak/hair dont materialize as a solid because he doesnt have the Gedo to properly bind together the beasts, but he gets the back marking because the parts are there. This would also explain why he only gets 9 TSB while Madara/Obito/Hagoromo got 10

      Everything after the 4SWW was used only Kurama's chakra. Likely because Naruto has only small portions of the other beasts so he can talk to them.

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    • CombatIQmatters wrote: @Hagoromo

      What I need from you now is proof that BSM naruto lacks pigmentation when kurama gathers the senjutsu, and this proof shouldn't include an example where naruto is verifiably already in six paths sage mode.

      Naruto gaiden chapter 700+3 page 11[1]: Naruto activates sage mode, rings appear around his eyes.

      Naruto gaiden chapter 700+3 page 18[2]: Naruto deactivates sage mode.

      Naruto gaiden chapter 700+4 page 2[3]3[4]4[5]: Naruto activates kurama sage mode, no rings are present.

      This is the evidence you asked for. If there's nothing else, we should agree now.

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    • All this argument because no one knows what the hell Six Paths Senjutsu, where it comes from, or how it relates to Naruto's own Six Paths Sage Mode.

      Just gonna quickfire what I believe:

      1) Six Paths Senjutsu is Kaguya's power.

      2) Hagoromo and Hamura's working in unison could have recreated her Chakra to form Six Paths: Catastrophic Planetary Construction.

      3) Hagoromo singularly gained Six Paths Senjutsu after becoming the Jinchuriki of the Ten-Tail's Chakra.

      4) Hamura (somehow) singularly gained Six Paths Senjustu after obtaining the Tenseigan.

      5) Ashura's "Bodily Chakra" is in fact Ashura learning to infuse Ninjutsu or Senjutsu Chakra and he didn't receive power from Hagoromo.

      6) Hagaromo gave Naruto the key to melding his and the Tailed Beasts' Chakra into Ten-Tails like Chakra, manifesting Six Paths Sage Chakra.

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    • Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Naruto gaiden chapter 700+3 page 11: Naruto activates sage mode, rings appear around his eyes.

      And where is your proof Kurama gathered that Nature Energy?

      Its was established in the Last that Naruto can use Natural Energy gathered by Kurama to enter toad Sage Mode

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Naruto gaiden chapter 700+3 page 14: Naruto deactivates sage mode.

      Naruto isnt even on page 14

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Naruto gaiden chapter 700+4 page 2-5: Naruto activates kurama sage mode, no rings are present.

      He activated SPSM+Kurama mode.

      Littlegen wrote:

      1) Six Paths Senjutsu is Kaguya's power.

      Ironically enough shes not listed as a user, but i agree since the manga makes it clear that becoming host to her chakra grants this ability.

      Littlegen wrote:

      2) Hagoromo and Hamura's working in unison could have recreated her Chakra to form Six Paths: Catastrophic Planetary Construction.

      Thats... possible

      Littlegen wrote:

      3) Hagoromo singularly gained Six Paths Senjutsu after becoming the Jinchuriki of the Ten-Tail's Chakra.

      Except he retained the ability after extracting the Juubis chakra and after death

      Littlegen wrote:

      5) Ashura's "Bodily Chakra" is in fact Ashura learning to infuse Ninjutsu or Senjutsu Chakra and he didn't receive power from Hagoromo.

      I like to believe that Ashura did get power but this is backed by nothing. This is indeed possible. Even looking at the samurai they utilize chakra constructs. After Ashura obtained his true strength he could have taken the concept from the samurai after seeing Indra show up up with his bigass chakra mech.

      Littlegen wrote:

      6) Hagaromo gave Naruto the key to melding his and the Tailed Beasts' Chakra into Ten-Tails like Chakra, manifesting Six Paths Sage Chakra.

      Databook says he receievd SPSM itself from the Hagoromo

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    • @LegionZero

      Where was it stated that kurama gathered the nature energy for naruto in the last? This is actually critical to proving that naruto was using SPSM when he healed guy as opposed to some weird KSM mode form that lacked a bijuu cloak and pigmentation due to the fact that kurama gathered the nature energy and not naruto himself , which wouldn't be impossible given that we have seen that naruto's eyes have changed to reflect kurama's influence before without adding any chakra cloak. I hope you can pinpoint this, otherwise I might be inclined to agree that the eyes aren't necessarily indicative of SPSM.

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    • LegionZero wrote: Except he retained the ability after extracting the Juubis chakra and after death

      As did Gaara retain the ability to manipulate Sand after Shukaku's removal. It seems Jinchuriki can retain abilities associated with their tenet if they survive or retain the ability to use their Chakra. Perhaps if they've been exposed to one another long enough, as Kakashi, a psudeo Jinchuriki for Obito didn't retain any of his power.

      LegionZero wrote: Databook says he receievd SPSM itself from the Hagoromo

      I'm not denying that.

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    • Littlegen

      Gaara is a complicated case, because even without shukaku he had the genetic disposition for magnetic style anyways from being the son of Rasa. You could argue that that doesn't make sense because his siblings don't have it, but at the same time Rasa's wife probably didn't have magnet style so the deck got shuffled out of their favour. Gaara also could have simply become more accustomed to the jutsu over time, and we know that post extraction their is a still connection, as gaara was able to actually grab shukaku's chakra and grab him out of obito.

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    • CombatIQmatters wrote: Littlegen

      Gaara is a complicated case, because even without shukaku he had the genetic disposition for magnetic style anyways from being the son of Rasa. You could argue that that doesn't make sense because his siblings don't have it, but at the same time Rasa's wife probably didn't have magnet style so the deck got shuffled out of their favour. Gaara also could have simply become more accustomed to the jutsu over time, and we know that post extraction their is a still connection, as gaara was able to actually grab shukaku's chakra and grab him out of obito.

      Sand isn't composed of metals though...

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    • Um what? The third kazekage controlled iron sand using magnetic style. Also, you do realize that metals aren't the only things that can be magnetized, right? Even oxygen can be affected by a magnetic field. Gara's sand is composed of different minerals and such. Gaara literally has the same rings under his eyes as his father when they control sand, and both Gaara and shukaku are listed users of magnetic style. Even pure gold isn't that magnetic, yet rasa can magnetize it just fine.

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    • @combat: when Hamura's golem shows up Naruto activates Sage mode along with Kurama Mode mid dodge while carrying Hinata

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    • Sand literally comprised of iron. Can you give me where it states Shukaku and Gaara use Magnet release to manipulate Sand? As the only time I remember it being assocciated with Shukaku's power is when Naruto used it in a Rasengan with the curse seals being the prominent detail.

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    • @littlegen: Magnet release can be used to magnetize objects that arent normally magnetized. One of the novels addresses Gaara as a Magnet release user. Some ppl take the novels as canon and others dont. Its really up to what you want to believe on that one.

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    • LegionZero wrote: @littlegen: Magnet release can be used to magnetize objects that arent normally magnetized. One of the novels addresses Gaara as a Magnet release user. Some ppl take the novels as canon and others dont. Its really up to what you want to believe on that one.

      I think it more plausible he inherited from Shukaku, considering Temari and Kankuro don't have the Kekkei Genkai.

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    • Not everyone inherits KKG from their parents. Its entirely possiblebthat Shukkaku's presence brought out the gene, but at the same time Gaara had already developed in the womb he had it already. According to the wiki, his basic sand control comes from infusing the sand with his chakra(there isnt citation but i think i remember it being said), and he uses magnet release as a last resort to make it denser.

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      The manga/databooks never made the connection between Juubi chakra and SPSM that you keep making

      The connection is made multiple times including the novel scan I provided earlier.

      LegionZero wrote: The Yin-Yang databook entry attributes Naruto's healing abilities to Yin-Yang Release. Nothing to do with the seal.

      Yin-Yang Release Databook Entry

      • having gained Hagoromo's power, Naruto was able to perfectly demonstrate the power of Yin and Yang release.[[1]]

      Sasuke Databook Entry

      • From the Rikudou Sennin, he awakened the Rinnegan and the key to the seal...[[2]]/

      6 Paths Chibaku Tensei Databook Entry

      • Six Paths Chibaku Tensei is invoked when two users simultaneously touch their target with the "Yin" and "Yang" seals.[[3]]

      Ch 681 p8

      • Zetsu talks about how powerful the seal used on Kaguya was and shows the marks on Naruto & Sasuke's hands
      Nothing about the having healing abilities anywhere.

      Yin-yang release has a single known source, Rikudo senjutsu. You can't make claims of additional sources if you're not prepared to name them. Cite the other sources or concede.

      LegionZero wrote:

      The databook doesnt back this. The SPSM entry doesnt attribute SPSM to the Bijuu. It is attributed to Hagoromo. Hagoromo didnt attribute SPSM to the Bijuu in the manga

      Hagoromo called out to each Biju chakra inside Naruto. He and the Biju verified them as one of conditions Naruto had met. There is another condition that is Naruto' mentality, which was necessary to aquire rsm. The juubi chakra is necessary to use rsm, this was explained in the OP as well as with the provided novel scan. Don't mistake one condition for the other. I keep saying this but you always ignore it. Rsm has multiple requirements hagoromo called them conditions, kurama confirmed Naruto met those conditions. I've been teaching you about one of those conditions. But you refuse to learn. You keep telling me about the condition that cause Naruto to receive rsm. I made it clear that this isn't about that. This is about the condition Naruto met to use rsm. The same way driving a car requires you to first aquire a car, to know how to drive a car, and to have fuel in the tank for the car to work. Naruto' fuel for his car was the juubi' chakra, as confirmed by multiple sources. Stop telling me about how he got the car. We all know that already.

      LegionZero wrote: "Debunked" Kurama Sage Mode has orange eyes, not yellow.

      Naruto didnt gather Nature Energy himself in The Last but he had the Orange Cross Eyes and Toad Sage pigments.

      His eye indicate that he in fact did gather that nature energy himself. As there is manga evidence supporting this.

      LegionZero wrote:

      The problem with this is that Bijuu chakra was never mentioned to be a pre-req for any form of SP Senjutsu. Hagoromo/Hamura achieved SP Senjutsu prior to sealing Kaguya. Hagoromo retained SP Senjutsu after he expelled the 10 Tails.

      Read the OP again it tells you how Obito and Madara and Naruto each gained Rikudo senjutsu and it involves the Biju. I also provided a novel scan that confirms the Biju requirement for becoming a juubi jinchuriki which grants Rikudo senjutsu. The Biju were mentioned as conditions, a condition that all Rikudo senjutsu users meet. Again, cite those other sources of Rikudo senjutsu or concede.

      LegionZero wrote: Naruto's SPSM is an ability given by Hagoromo and it is a unique form of SP Senjutsu. The databook says this many times. He also had SPSM active prior utilizing the Bijuu's chakra. This is made clear when he asked Son Goku to lend him chakra for his Rasenshuriken.

      The Juubi/10 Tails Coffin Seal is a shortcut to SP Senjutsu because the Juubi is a natural mix of 6 Paths Chakra and nature energy so the Jinchuriki gains this attribute as well.

      Madara like much of the power hungry cast of Naruto didn't understand what being a sage of six paths was. Obito thought he and Madara and nagato were Rikudo sages simply because they each were rinnegan users. Then Kabuto thought he was the closest thing to sage of six paths because of his body modifications. Then Madara becomes a jinchuriki and remarks so this is six paths power. They don't fully understand Rikudo sagehood, and that's because it wasn't fully explained to them. They are only comparing themselves to and chasing after the power and capabilities hagoromo had. They are forgetting about the mindset hagoromo carried. The same mindset ashura and Naruto had. This is why I keep telling you there are multiple conditions for rsm. The condition for it's power source which is Rikudo senjutsu that allows one to use rsm. And the condition to receive the form which is the mindset deeming one worthy of the mode itself. Naruto met both conditions. Stop making the same error. Hagoromo made himself clear.


      LegionZero wrote: The cloak Naruto had in 4SWW doesnt appear to be the same as cloak as KCM. It doesnt make his skin glow and it has different markings.

      My theory is that this 4SWW cloak manifests because of the other 8 Tailed Beasts chakra.

      It mimics the Coffin Seal Senjutsu's effects on clothes, hair, and has the tomoe and symbol on the back. Because Naruto doesnt truly have the 10 Tails, the cloak/hair dont materialize as a solid because he doesnt have the Gedo to properly bind together the beasts, but he gets the back marking because the parts are there. This would also explain why he only gets 9 TSB while Madara/Obito/Hagoromo got 10

      Everything after the 4SWW was used only Kurama's chakra. Likely because Naruto has only small portions of the other beasts so he can talk to them.

      One thing that doesn't change is how to identify Rikudo senjutsu. What does change is who gathers the senjutsu between Naruto or kurama, and the amount of kurama Naruto has. When Naruto gathers the senjutsu his eyes produce rings around them. When kurama gathers the senjtsu, there are no rings. No rings doesn't indicate anything else besides the biju gathering the senjutsu. Rikudo senjutsu indicates rsm', or rather the power to use rsm. It is rsm' power condition. This isn't theory. This is backed by manga novel databook evidence.

      LegionZero wrote: "Debunked" Kurama Sage Mode has orange eyes, not yellow.

      Naruto didnt gather Nature Energy himself in The Last but he had the Orange Cross Eyes and Toad Sage pigments.

      In the last, naruto' eyes had rings about them, he gathered the senjutsu. Again, manga evidence supports this


      LegionZero wrote:

      And where is your proof Kurama gathered that Nature Energy?

      The evidence is in the lack of rings around his eyes in that instance. They prove kurama was the cuplrit of that gathered senjutsu. What they don't prove is rsm because that form lacks the conditional Rikudo senjutsu.

      LegionZero wrote:

      Its was established in the Last that Naruto can use Natural Energy gathered by Kurama to enter toad Sage Mode

      Stop with these drastic leaps in logic and empty claims. That actual working translation of the last guidebook states:

      ' Kurama Chakra Mode

      Naruto exhibits overwhelming power when borrowing massive amounts of chakra from Kurama, who is sealed within him. Furthermore, when used in conjunction with “sennin mode,” it drastically increases his sensory ability and the power of the ninjutsu he employs…!!

      Caption for Naruto in Kurama chakra mode: The Shishou Fuuin becomes visible, and his chakra overflows like flames.'

      It only states Naruto can use sage mode with kurama mode, which we know because that's the same power he had before he gained rikudo senjtus and rsm. Having only kurama now, this makes sense.

      LegionZero wrote: Naruto isnt even on page 14

      Thanks for the correction. I meant page 18. I also updated that response with links to the relevant pages.

      LegionZero wrote:

      He activated SPSM+Kurama mode.

      Naruto needs Rikudo senjutsu to enter rsm. Since this form lacks that, this can't be rsm. This is kurama mode and sage mode, just like in the last, only achieved differently. The difference being who gathers the senjutsu. And just like when Naruto uses kurama sage mode for the first time he says he can gather natural energy faster. The last guidebook translation I shared above also states that ksm increases sensory and power of ninjutsu. Show me evidence of naruto' kurama mode and rsm working together. Show me manga novel databook evidence that they're used in conjunction. Especially in the same chaptetmr 700+4 where you claim he's doing this. Show me Naruto using both the abilities of rsm and that of kurama mode together. I'll concede if you have that in spades.

      Littlegen wrote: 1) Six Paths Senjutsu is Kaguya's power.

      LegionZero wrote:

      Ironically enough shes not listed as a user, but i agree since the manga makes it clear that becoming host to her chakra grants this ability.

      It's more accurately the juubi' power. So that would also be correct but only when she's merged with the shinju. Also notice that she produced a ETSO before she separated herself from the juubi', confirming it's the source of that power.

      Littlegen wrote:

      2) Hagoromo and Hamura's working in unison could have recreated her Chakra to form Six Paths: Catastrophic Planetary Construction.

      LegionZero wrote:

      Thats... possible

      There's numerous possibilities since nothing concrete was stated as to how the seals came about or how they had the power to use them successfully the first time.

      LegionZero wrote:

      Except he retained the ability after extracting the Juubis chakra and after death

      Except he didn't. He was not a juubi jinchuriki when he spoke to Naruto. The juubi was in one place during that time, inside Madara. The best argument you can make is that juubi chakra can be in multiple places at once, which Naruto proved proved possible by awakening Rikudo senjutsu without having the actual juubi inside him. But even then hagoromo' alleged Rikudo senjutsu is debunked because he needed the lower half of Madara to resurrect himself. He would've returned sooner if he already had that power. Relying on Madara' fragmented power proves he didn't have it himself.

      Littlegen wrote: 5) Ashura's "Bodily Chakra" is in fact Ashura learning to infuse Ninjutsu or Senjutsu Chakra and he didn't receive power from Hagoromo.

      I like to believe that Ashura did get power but this is backed by nothing. This is indeed possible. Even looking at the samurai they utilize chakra constructs. After Ashura obtained his true strength he could have taken the concept from the samurai after seeing Indra show up up with his bigass chakra mech.</div> Why specualt when I already proved ashura and hagoromo used ninshu. This was his method of achieving Rikudo senjutsu, it was his mindset and reslove that awarded him Rsm.

      LegionZero wrote: Databook says he receievd SPSM itself from the Hagoromo

      Continuing with the car and the gas analogy The databook states because of naruto' mindset, he got the car from hagoromo. The databook also states he kicked the TSO, which required a certain level of gas. Both conditions are stated there.

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    • The actual point of this is to know if Jinchuriki inherit abilities from their Tailed Beasts. The answer should be yes. Jinchuriki seem to gain the ability of their tailed Beasts despite not actively manipulating their Chakra. Their uses of their power are even almost identical.

      CombatIQmatters wrote: @Littlegen, look up diamagnetism and paramagnetism...

      Thank you for the info.

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    • @Littlegen, look up diamagnetism and paramagnetism. Quartz is a common ingredient in sand and in the presence of a magnetic field it is repelled due to it's diamagnetism. Shukaku and Gaara are always using magnetism to propel their sand. And my point about Rasa's gold dust manipulation also stands, because gold isn't normally very magnetic, it's a far cry from iron in fact. I also would make the argument that gaara got it and not his siblings because look how much gaara resembles Rasa. Temari more closely resembles her mom, and kankaro is somwhere in between lol. Not all kids get the same traits from their parents. We know that KKG can be genetically inherited. Though its possible that gaara inherited purely from shukaku.

      @LegionZero Darn I was hoping you were talking about something else... but we don't know if naruto gathered the chakra or not do we? When do they say that? Also, why would he bother using frog sage mode if he can just use SPSM?


      @Hagoromo

      At this point your argument rests on a delicate balance, depending on Legionzero's next response. You are pretty much saying that naruto was using KSM but without the cloak and without pigmentation when he healed guy etc. Coming full circle, Your theory rests on the following criteria:

      that one: naruto needs the 9 bijuu chakra to use six paths sage mode. Common Counter: Juubi chakra is without a doubt a source of ridoku sage mode, but it is very possible that Hagromo granted him the ability to use it without it. If we assume this is true, your argument actually backfires because you yourself have claimed hokage naruto no longer has the 8 bijuu. If hokage naruto is in fact using RSM in those panels, it would confirm the point. It could just as easily be the case that SPSM is in fact indicated by the crossed eye pupils but a lack of pigmentation. As legionZero noted, Hokage naruto's SPSM chakra cloak may lack the same features it had in the 4SWW due to simple fact that he no longer has the 8 bijuu chakra that allow him to make the coffin seal. So it may actually be better to define hokage naruto as having SPSM + KCM, rather than saying he has SPSM +pesudo Jubbi chakra cloak.


      that two: Madara citing the ten tailed coffin seal as the hallmark of rikodu sage mode. Counter: True, but this statement can easily be reconicled if you acknowledge that RSM is simply a homograph, and that ridoku sage mode can be achieved through having juubi chakra, while on the other hand hagoromo can gift a user the ability to enter ridoku sage mode as sort of an upgrade to basic sage mode, independent of tailed beast chakra.

      three: hokage naruto only gains sage mode pigmentation when he himself gathers the chakra, while if kurama gathers the chakra there seems to be a lack of pigmentation.

      Counter: Pending LegionZero's response. This statement, while possible, has yet to be substantiated. We know that when naruto enters KSM in the last, we can clearly see the pigmentation about the eyes. We can't cite hokage naruto in the gaiden as an example, because that is not a good control for this experiment, since it's the issue we are trying to find a consensus on. a good control is finding an example where hokage naruto was clearly stated to not be using SPSM as an adult, and then showing that when kurama gathers the senjutsu, the pigmentation doesn't appear on naruto, and that proves that he is using KSM but without pigmentation, instead of SPSM + KCM. Hopefully this was clear.

      That said, you have convinced me that your theory is plausible, but I still need some more substantiation. It is definitely strange that hokage naruto would be able to use SPSM if he doesn't have any ridoku senjutsu. But if the cloaks aren't reliable due to change of author or something, then it's hard to tell.

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    • CombatIQmatters wrote: @Hagoromo

      At this point your argument rests on a delicate balance, depending on Legionzero's next response. You are pretty much saying that naruto was using KSM but without the cloak and without pigmentation when he healed guy etc. Coming full circle, Your theory rests on the following criteria:

      Let me stop you right there because this is not my claim. I already addressed in the OP what took place within Naruto when he was healing guy. This was the simply naduto producing Rikudo senjutsu, or more accurately the 9 biju inside him producing it. There're no rings around his eyes at this time yet we know senjutsu is being used, meaning kurama is the one gathering that energy as we see him do again later on against sasuke. As the Biju chakra continues to merge it results in increasing levels of Rikudo senjutsu. This process started when Naruto woke up. The process completed when he enter rsm, as he had enough juubi chakra at that point to do so.

      Still, it's like you said, if he has the proof I asked for he would effectively debunk me. If not, he must concede.

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    • @Hagomromo:


      Don't misunderstand, I read the OP, but that claim that he was simply "producing ridoku senjutsu", while possible, is not substantiated by anything. I erroneously said you claimed something you didn't, so my bad, but what I mean is there is another possibility that can explain this phenomenon. he was already in sage mode, as he used a sage art rasenshuriken. Since when does naruto use sage mode techniques without already being in sage mode? You can make the claim that kurama gathered the chakra for him to enter sage mode (still remains to be refuted by Legion), but that would mean he is in a KSM without a cloak. Your theory states he only entered RSM once he got the cloak with the coffin seal. There has never been a precedent for something like this except for maybe Juubito's initial incomplete RSM, where he only had two truth seeking balls etc, and had to gradually gain full control of the juubi in order to fully maximize his sage mode.

      Also, I think your car and gas analogy is good, but i don't understand why hagoromo would need to give him the ability to use RSM when , according to you, kneading ridoku senjutsu sufficiently is all that is necessary. Why would hagoromo need to give naruto the car, when madara and juubito seemed to get both the car and the gas from simply kneading juubi chakra? Perhaps this could be related to my juubito point, perhaps because naruto has significantly less bijuu chakra, it's much harder to knead the chakra, and hagoromo jump started his engine or something lol.

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    • CombatIQmatters wrote: three: hokage naruto only gains sage mode pigmentation when he himself gathers the chakra, while if kurama gathers the chakra there seems to be a lack of pigmentation.

      Counter: Pending LegionZero's response. This statement, while possible, has yet to be substantiated. We know that when naruto enters KSM in the last, we can clearly see the pigmentation about the eyes. We can't cite hokage naruto in the gaiden as an example, because that is not a good control for this experiment, since it's the issue we are trying to find a consensus on. a good control is finding an example where hokage naruto was clearly stated to not be using SPSM as an adult, and then showing that when kurama gathers the senjutsu, the pigmentation doesn't appear on naruto, and that proves that he is using KSM but without pigmentation, instead of SPSM + KCM. Hopefully this was clear.

      That said, you have convinced me that your theory is plausible, but I still need some more substantiation. It is definitely strange that hokage naruto would be able to use SPSM if he doesn't have any ridoku senjutsu. But if the cloaks aren't reliable due to change of author or something, then it's hard to tell.

      Boruto Episode 38 @11:06[1] is what solidifies my stance entirely. Here Naruto starts off entering his part 1 initial kurama cloak,[2] then progresses into kurama sage mode. Nothing here depicts rsm. Plus Naruto wouldn't use rsm during training against a few jonin, that's ungodly spite and not in the realm of naruto' character. This confirms my statement. This is naruto in ksm without rings around his eyes because kurama is gathering the senjutsu. There are 0 signs of Rikudo senjutsu, so there is 0 chance of this being rsm. Naruto never used a part 1 jinchuriki cloak on himself during the war, thats what he gave to the alliance.

      Claiming that a lack of rings around his eyes equates to and indicates rsm is now debunked.

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    • Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote: Naruto never used a part 1 jinchuriki cloak on himself during the war, thats what he gave to the alliance.

      Claiming that a lack of rings around his eyes equates to and indicates rsm is now debunked.

      You mean this? [[1]] And what you described is the Dragonball Super effect. Where the character will unnecessarily use his strongest forms for the most mundane activities.

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    • Littlegen wrote: You mean this? [[1]] And what you described is the Dragonball Super effect. Where the character will unnecessarily use his strongest forms for the most mundane activities.

      Are you really suggesting at that point in time naruto is at his strongest? Lol. The war was over at that point plus Naruto never reentered rsm after that, not even to undo IT.[2][3][4][5] Further proving he was able to use their chakra in base, like when he kicked the TSO and healed guy. Both feats were done in base, while he was building towards a sufficient amount of Rikudo senjutsu. Him undoing IT was his last feat with the juubi' chakra.

      You're right though, he did use his initial cloak then. I didn't know there was an entire trope about that, I can just imagine all the inconsistencies.

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    • Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote: Are you really suggesting that naruto' at his strongest there? Lol. The war was over at that point. Plus Naruto never reentered rsm after that, not even to undo IT.[1][2][3][4] Further proving he was able to use their chakra in base, like when he kicked the TSO and healed guy. Both feats were done in base, while he was building towards a sufficient amount of Rikudo senjutsu. Him undoing IT was his last feat with the juubi' chakra.

      Don't "LOL" it makes you sound like a condescending know it all. AND, I specified FORMS.

      He was in Six Paths Sage Mode when he kicked the Truth Seeker Orb and healed Guy, not in base. He also wasn't building up Chakra. He can enter the state as easily as Chakra Mode. [[5]] [[6]]

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    • @Hagoromo

      To be fair, wasn't using KCM in of itself spite? lol. I mean I understand what you are saying but that isn't enough proof in of itself, though. I will concede that it does appear as though naruto is using regular KSM, I will sleep on this idea.

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    • Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Hagoromo called out to each Biju chakra inside Naruto. He and the Biju verified them as one of conditions Naruto had met. There is another condition that is Naruto' mentality, which was necessary to aquire rsm.

      No he didnt. He made note that Naruto befriending them made him the child of prophecy not a candidate to achieve SPSM. You are putting words in his mouth

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      The juubi chakra is necessary to use rsm, this was explained in the OP as well as with the provided novel scan.

      The OP you provided didnt say a damn thing about Juubi chakra. Or Tailed Beast chakra. The entire databook page is about SPSM but we are suppose to believe for that one section Its NOT talking about SPSM? Right

      The novel didnt even say was a legitimate Juubi jinchuriki. "In a manner of speaking" means that the statement isnt literal or isnt completely true.[[1]]

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Don't mistake one condition for the other. I keep saying this but you always ignore it. Rsm has multiple requirements hagoromo called them conditions, kurama confirmed Naruto met those conditions. I've been teaching you about one of those conditions. But you refuse to learn. You keep telling me about the condition that cause Naruto to receive rsm. I made it clear that this isn't about that. This is about the condition Naruto met to use rsm.

      You are making up the conditions though. You are making connections between things that the manga and databooks do not make. Either quote Hagoromo or the databook or you got nothing because if the dont make the connection there isnt one.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      His eye indicate that he in fact did gather that nature energy himself. As there is manga evidence supporting this.

      Not when he started facing off against the against Hagoromo's golem, Naruto has to stay perfectly still to gather nature energy but he transformed while moving. Literally impossible to gather that nevergy himself.

      Cant say the manga supports this because when we see Naruto he is already in toad Sage Mode. Unless we see him the moment he activates it there is no validity one way or the other as to the circumstances surrounding it.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Read the OP again it tells you how Obito and Madara and Naruto each gained Rikudo senjutsu and it involves the Biju. I also provided a novel scan that confirms the Biju requirement for becoming a juubi jinchuriki which grants Rikudo senjutsu. The Biju were mentioned as conditions, a condition that all Rikudo senjutsu users meet. Again, cite those other sources of Rikudo senjutsu or concede.

      Dont care what the OP says because the OP isnt Kishimoto. The manga didnt attribute SPSM to the Bijuu. Neither did the databooks. Both the manga and the databooks specifically attribute it to Hagoromo. Hagoromo constantly says that he gave Naruto and Sasuke his power.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Madara like much of the power hungry cast of Naruto didn't understand what being a sage of six paths was. Obito thought he and Madara and nagato were Rikudo sages simply because they each were rinnegan users. Then Kabuto thought he was the closest thing to sage of six paths because of his body modifications. Then Madara becomes a jinchuriki and remarks so this is six paths power. They don't fully understand Rikudo sagehood, and that's because it wasn't fully explained to them. They are only comparing themselves to and chasing after the power and capabilities hagoromo had. They are forgetting about the mindset hagoromo carried. The same mindset ashura and Naruto had. This is why I keep telling you there are multiple conditions for rsm. The condition for it's power source which is Rikudo senjutsu that allows one to use rsm. And the condition to receive the form which is the mindset deeming one worthy of the mode itself. Naruto met both conditions. Stop making the same error. Hagoromo made himself clear.

      Obito and Madara knew very well that the only way to truly become like the Sage of 6 Paths was to be a Juubichuriki. Because they knew he was at his strongest as a Juubichuriki. They did t understamd what that power felt like. Madara had the same reaction to Hashirama's senjustu chakra but he was underwhelmed rather than impressed

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote: One thing that doesn't change is how to identify Rikudo senjutsu. What does change is who gathers the senjutsu between Naruto or kurama, and the amount of kurama Naruto has. When Naruto gathers the senjutsu his eyes produce rings around them. When kurama gathers the senjtsu, there are no rings. No rings doesn't indicate anything else besides the biju gathering the senjutsu. Rikudo senjutsu indicates rsm', or rather the power to use rsm. It is rsm' power condition. This isn't theory. This is backed by manga novel databook evidence.

      Still waiting for them quotes

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote: In the last, naruto' eyes had rings about them, he gathered the senjutsu. Again, manga evidence supports this

      In the Last he couldnt have possibly gathered the nature energy because he was shown to be moving upon activation.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      The evidence is in the lack of rings around his eyes in that instance. They prove kurama was the cuplrit of that gathered senjutsu. What they don't prove is rsm because that form lacks the conditional Rikudo senjutsu.

      You first have to prove that Kurama gathering the nature energy causes yellow eyes and cross pupils. Which you havent.


      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Stop with these drastic leaps in logic and empty claims. That actual working translation of the last guidebook states:

      ' Kurama Chakra Mode

      Naruto exhibits overwhelming power when borrowing massive amounts of chakra from Kurama, who is sealed within him. Furthermore, when used in conjunction with “sennin mode,” it drastically increases his sensory ability and the power of the ninjutsu he employs…!!

      Caption for Naruto in Kurama chakra mode: The Shishou Fuuin becomes visible, and his chakra overflows like flames.'

      It only states Naruto can use sage mode with kurama mode, which we know because that's the same power he had before he gained rikudo senjtus and rsm. Having only kurama now, this makes sense.

      You can watch the movie and see Naruto activate toad Sage Mode even though he is on the move. This can only be done if someone else gathers Nature energy for him.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Thanks for the correction. I meant page 18. I also updated that response with links to the relevant pages.

      He doesnt "turn it off" he arrives and it was already deactivated.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Naruto needs Rikudo senjutsu to enter rsm. Since this form lacks that, this can't be rsm.

      Naruto does have Six Paths chakra and he was given the ability to eneter SPSM by Hagoromo.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      This is kurama mode and sage mode, just like in the last, only achieved differently.

      Not like in the Last because that was toad Sage Mode as identifide by the rings.

      The 4th databook already establishes the yellow iris/cross pupil as SPSM.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Especially in the same chaptetmr 700+4 where you claim he's doing this. Show me Naruto using both the abilities of rsm and that of kurama mode together. I'll concede if you have that in spades.

      We can start with the fact that he healed Sasuke from critical condition after he nearly got burned alive by Momoshiki. Using some more of that sweet Yin-Yang release that he got from SPSM in the 4th war.(movie version)

      Naruto flew around around Momoshiki's Inukai Takeru no Mikoto in the anime version

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      It's more accurately the juubi' power. So that would also be correct but only when she's merged with the shinju. Also notice that she produced a ETSO before she separated herself from the juubi', confirming it's the source of that power.

      Except Hagoromo/Hamura got SP Senjutsu without the Juubi or the Shinju.

      Juubito and Juubidara both has SP Senjutsu even though they didnt have the Shinju.

      Kaguya was also had the Rinne Sharingan and casted Infinite Tsukuyomi prior to merging with the Shinjuu

      Littlegen wrote: 5) Ashura's "Bodily Chakra" is in fact Ashura learning to infuse Ninjutsu or Senjutsu Chakra and he didn't receive power from Hagoromo.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Why specualt when I already proved ashura and hagoromo used ninshu. This was his method of achieving Rikudo senjutsu, it was his mindset and reslove that awarded him Rsm.

      This wasnt proven. Or stated. Ninshu is like a religion. You dont use Ninshu.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Continuing with the car and the gas analogy The databook states because of naruto' mindset, he got the car from hagoromo. The databook also states he kicked the TSO, which required a certain level of gas. Both conditions are stated there.

      Too bad the databook doesnt say bijuu chakra is the gas.

      *The floating ability used by the Sage of Six Paths is also almost mastered unconsciously by this technique's user.

      • From the ancestor of shinobi, a divine state is gifted, touching the principles of all creation, commanding all things in nature
      • The qualities for obtaining this technique are strict studying and using a small gist in chakra kneading sensibility. An iron faith to face any hardship and the guts to never give up. Furthermore, the returning incarnation and fate's guidance ― this power is granted by the Sage of Six Paths only to someone who holds those. Those who activate the technique come to understand the flow of all life, gain a deep insight at the world's origins and are able to apply it on interacting allies without changing the way of things. This technique isn't something shinobi choose to experience. It is a technique that chooses shinobi.
      • Kicking the "Truth-Seeking Ball"! Exceeding the Kurama Mode, a feat accomplished by a huge chakra.
      • The reaction speed is not less than equal to Madara, who had turned into the Ten-Tails' jinchuriki. The sensing ability has also risen!![[2]]

      The only time the Juubi or Bijuu chakra were ever given credit for achieving SP Senjutsu was for the 10 Tails Coffin Seal.[[3]]

      So far all you have done is say things were said where they in fact were not said. Thats why you cant drop direct quotes and citations.

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    • LegionZero wrote: *The floating ability used by the Sage of Six Paths is also almost mastered unconsciously by this technique's user.

      • From the ancestor of shinobi, a divine state is gifted, touching the principles of all creation, commanding all things in nature
      • The qualities for obtaining this technique are strict studying and using a small gist in chakra kneading sensibility. An iron faith to face any hardship and the guts to never give up. Furthermore, the returning incarnation and fate's guidance ― this power is granted by the Sage of Six Paths only to someone who holds those. Those who activate the technique come to understand the flow of all life, gain a deep insight at the world's origins and are able to apply it on interacting allies without changing the way of things. This technique isn't something shinobi choose to experience. It is a technique that chooses shinobi.

      I take umbrage with that flowery definition of the mode. Mostly the second bullet point. That's all fluff that tells us little to nothing how the form is truly obtained or how it works, to the point it offers more speculation. The points I dislike the most are the incarnation and fate's guidance bits.

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    • Littlegen wrote: Don't "LOL" it makes you sound like a condescending know it all. AND, I specified FORMS.

      He was in Six Paths Sage Mode when he kicked the Truth Seeker Orb and healed Guy, not not in base. He also wasn't building up Chakra. He can enter the state as easily as Chakra Mode. [[1]] [[2]]

      The laughter wasn't meant to offend. I just didn't fully understand you is all. I agree, entering rsm becomes easy when there's enough Rikudo senjutsu present. Madara acknowledging Naruto'increasing Rikudo senjutsu is no different from when naruto first startee to amass senjutsu himself. Remember Naruto during sage training was able to pick up that stone frog.[3][4][5][6] Proving you can benefit from different amounts of senjutsu, so long as you can control it. Kurama made that gathered senjutsu compatible with his own chakra. Since they can give and take freely from each others reserves the senjutsu along with the created juubi chakra was given to Naruto, granting him immediate benefits.

      CombatIQmatters wrote: @Hagoromo

      To be fair, wasn't using KCM in of itself spite? lol. I mean I understand what you are saying but that isn't enough proof in of itself, though. I will concede that it does appear as though naruto is using regular KSM, I will sleep on this idea.

      Yeah, ksm was spite as well. Still, it does prove me right. It clarifes what Naruto achieved in gaiden, since the modes are identical. Still I'm glad you've realized the point(s) I've made. Hopefully more people will see them also.

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    • Littlegen wrote:

      I take umbrage with that flowery definition of the mode. Mostly the second bullet point. That's all fluff that tells us little to nothing how the form is truly obtained or how it works, to the point it offers more speculation. The points I dislike the most are the incarnation and fate's guidance bits.

      It is a lot of fluff but it it does say its a form given by the Sage of 6 Paths to those who have guts and iron will to face hardship. No mention of juubi chakra or bijuu chakra at all. Its about the kind of person the Sage of 6 Paths grants SPSM to.

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    • LegionZero wrote: It is a lot of fluff but it it does say its a form given by the Sage of 6 Paths to those who have guts and iron will to face hardship. No mention of juubi chakra or bijuu chakra at all. Its about the kind of person the Sage of 6 Paths grants SPSM to.

      Frankly, this definition is too damn meta. It suggests Naruto has reached the values that would equate to enlightenment.

      Though, looking back at it, I can theorize Naruto did have Hagoromo's power (Six Paths Senjutsu) while in Six Paths Sage Mode. His healing power is attributed to the same byproduct of Hagoromo's power. [[1]]

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    • @littlegen: 6 Paths Sage Mode is a form 6 Paths Senjutsu. Just like there are multiple ways to achieve regular Senjutsu, there are multiple ways to achieve 6 Paths Senjutsu.

      And thats what I have been saying. Literally everything Naruto had done after he met Hagoromo was credited to Hagoromo. in Naruto's entry, in SPSM entry, in Hagoromo's entry, Yin-yang Release entry, Kaguya's entry. The only times the Bijuu were accredited with providing SP Senjutsu were in Madara, Obito, and 10 Tails coffin seal entries.

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    • @Hagoromo Otsutsuki

      I think you're being mistaken somewhere. SPSM was given to Naruto by Hagoromo, NOT the Tailed Beasts. Naruto received the Tailed Beast Chakra when the Tailed Beasts themselves their Chakra to Naruto and when Obito also gave him the Eight and One Tails in his Kamui Dimension. Naruto, in Boruto still has Hagoromo's Chakra and can still use SPSM. In fact, he used SPSM against Momoshiki in the Manga. ( Even Naruto's eyes, that don't show pigmentation, like ordinary Sage Mode prove it ).

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    • Having all the bijuu chakra made Naruto trigger Six Paths Senjutsu. Just like having Hashirama's cells (and him being an Indra reicarnation) made Sasuke trigger his rinnegan. Now nobody knows what Hagoromo did exactly, but his chakra probably speed up the awakening process for the boys, and also gave them special abilities namely Six Paths Sage Mode and Sasuke's special tomoes in his rinnegan, which let him keep his sharingan abilities in it. The main reason why Naruto has and had Six Paths Senjutsu in the first place was the bijuu chakra.

      Naruto still has Six Paths Sage Mode, still has the bijuu chakra, still has the healing ability. The only difference between Hokage Naruto and teen Naruto is that Hokage Naruto doesn't have the TSB anymore because they were all destroyed during the war.In exchange he has the other half of Kurama.

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    • LegionZero wrote: @littlegen: 6 Paths Sage Mode is a form 6 Paths Senjutsu. Just like there are multiple ways to achieve regular Senjutsu, there are multiple ways to achieve 6 Paths Senjutsu.

      And thats what I have been saying. Literally everything Naruto had done after he met Hagoromo was credited to Hagoromo. in Naruto's entry, in SPSM entry, in Hagoromo's entry, Yin-yang Release entry, Kaguya's entry. The only times the Bijuu were accredited with providing SP Senjutsu were in Madara, Obito, and 10 Tails coffin seal entries.

      Again you're only noticing one condition and not the other. You're also omitting or forgetting that hagoromo had no Rikudo senjutsu to give to naruto which I already proved, yet naruto is able to awaken that power. Literally all his feats post his conversation with hagoromo was done while having different levels of Rikudo senjutsu. It is his other condition to enter rsm. It is his condition to achieve yin-yang release. It is his condition to reseal kaguya with the 2 Rikudo hand powers. Hagoromo said that many conditions have been met. Only speaking of one condition is proof of a lack of understanding and context.

      Arturia Pendragon00000 wrote: @Hagoromo Otsutsuki

      I think you're being mistaken somewhere. SPSM was given to Naruto by Hagoromo, NOT the Tailed Beasts. Naruto received the Tailed Beast Chakra when the Tailed Beasts themselves their Chakra to Naruto and when Obito also gave him the Eight and One Tails in his Kamui Dimension. Naruto, in Boruto still has Hagoromo's Chakra and can still use SPSM. In fact, he used SPSM against Momoshiki in the Manga. ( Even Naruto's eyes, that don't show pigmentation, like ordinary Sage Mode prove it ).

      I've addressed this already. You are speaking about a different condition than I am. The condition to receive the form is not the same condition to use the form. That is as simple as I can put it.

      Vladosaurus wrote: Having all the bijuu chakra made Naruto trigger Six Paths Senjutsu. Just like having Hashirama's cells (and him being an Indra reicarnation) made Sasuke trigger his rinnegan. Now nobody knows what Hagoromo did exactly, but his chakra probably speed up the awakening process for the boys, and also gave them special abilities namely Six Paths Sage Mode and Sasuke's special tomoes in his rinnegan, which let him keep his sharingan abilities in it. The main reason why Naruto has and had Six Paths Senjutsu in the first place was the bijuu chakra.

      Naruto still has Six Paths Sage Mode, still has the bijuu chakra, still has the healing ability. The only difference between Hokage Naruto and teen Naruto is that Hokage Naruto doesn't have the TSB anymore because they were all destroyed during the war.In exchange he has the other half of Kurama.

      Outside of hagoromo calling him the meeting place, what evidence is there of naruto retaining those 8 fragmented Biju chakra?

      What is the evidence of his current healing ability?

      I've proven that TSOS can replenish. Hagoromo proves this, so does Obito and kaguya. Naruto not having any TSOS is fixed by achieving more Rikudo senjutsu. Plus hagoromo wouldn't give naruto or sasuke power that leaves them forever reliant on his assistance. They have abilities that can be maintained and sustained without his direct help. Namely Rikudo senjutsu rsm and rinnegan. Sure they already have his Chaka, but even after he returned to the afterworld they kept those abilities. Sasuke still uses rinnegan because he meets the conditions to do so. Naruto doesn't use rsm because he doesn't all the conditions to do so. I'm not saying his mentality changed and he lost the mode, I'm saying he level of power changed and is no longer supportive of rsm. But simply gaining more fragments from the 8 Biju OR sealing the their actual bodies inside him will meet and/or exceed the condition of power to use rsm.

      But don't make claims that he's using a form when he's not showing any of the abilities of that form. Same goes for all claims that he uses rsm in conjunction with another form. Prove that outright if you can, otherwise drop that speculation entirely. Databook doesn't state he used a second form with rsm, it is a single form. Whereas the last guidebook states kurama mode was used with sage mode. Naruto' rsm has both the strongest tailed beast chakra and nature energy already. He doesn't need to add other modes to it.

      That is all.

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    • LegionZero wrote: @littlegen: 6 Paths Sage Mode is a form 6 Paths Senjutsu. Just like there are multiple ways to achieve regular Senjutsu, there are multiple ways to achieve 6 Paths Senjutsu.

      And thats what I have been saying. Literally everything Naruto had done after he met Hagoromo was credited to Hagoromo. in Naruto's entry, in SPSM entry, in Hagoromo's entry, Yin-yang Release entry, Kaguya's entry. The only times the Bijuu were accredited with providing SP Senjutsu were in Madara, Obito, and 10 Tails coffin seal entries.

      You miss interpenetrated my point as it continued from my previous post. Six Paths Senjutsu is Kaguya's Power, as in the Ten-Tail's Chakra. I don't think there are more kinds of Six Paths Senjutsu because that doesn't make sense.

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    • maybe he has different Levels of his powers? like KCM1 and KCM2 ?

      Maybe naruto still hasn't shown his true realized potential. I mean, im sorry but, the fact that if this is the case and hes been using SPSM (The epitome and ultimate form of his power) this many times in boruto, then thats just upsetting...i mean the same with sasuke, him using PS as much as he already has to fodder such as Shin, training the barrier corps, and all that? Like Vegeta said about Super Sayian, its been reduced to a childs plaything.


      these forms should be their trump cards, not their go-to powers anytime something is going on, these are powers they should've revealed in their fights with Momo and Co, and enemies of Comparable strength. not against someone like SHIN or the Byakuya Bandits

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    • Littlegen wrote:You miss interpenetrated my point as it continued from my previous post. Six Paths Senjutsu is Kaguya's Power, as in the Ten-Tail's Chakra. I don't think there are more kinds of Six Paths Senjutsu because that doesn't make sense.

      I agree, there's no other cited source for that power. It is the juubi' power.

      Kirito975 wrote: maybe he has different Levels of his powers? like KCM1 and KCM2 ?

      Maybe naruto still hasn't shown his true realized potential. I mean, im sorry but, the fact that if this is the case and hes been using SPSM (The epitome and ultimate form of his power) this many times in boruto, then thats just upsetting...i mean the same with sasuke, him using PS as much as he already has to fodder such as Shin, training the barrier corps, and all that? Like Vegeta said about Super Sayian, its been reduced to a childs plaything.


      these forms should be their trump cards, not their go-to powers anytime something is going on, these are powers they should've revealed in their fights with Momo and Co, and enemies of Comparable strength. not against someone like SHIN or the Byakuya Bandits

      Amen. Great point. Naruto has no reason to use his strongest form against a ms user.

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    • Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      LegionZero wrote: @littlegen: 6 Paths Sage Mode is a form 6 Paths Senjutsu. Just like there are multiple ways to achieve regular Senjutsu, there are multiple ways to achieve 6 Paths Senjutsu.

      And thats what I have been saying. Literally everything Naruto had done after he met Hagoromo was credited to Hagoromo. in Naruto's entry, in SPSM entry, in Hagoromo's entry, Yin-yang Release entry, Kaguya's entry. The only times the Bijuu were accredited with providing SP Senjutsu were in Madara, Obito, and 10 Tails coffin seal entries.

      Again you're only noticing one condition and not the other. You're also omitting or forgetting that hagoromo had no Rikudo senjutsu to give to naruto which I already proved, yet naruto is able to awaken that power. Literally all his feats post his conversation with hagoromo was done while having different levels of Rikudo senjutsu. It is his other condition to enter rsm. It is his condition to achieve yin-yang release. It is his condition to reseal kaguya with the 2 Rikudo hand powers. Hagoromo said that many conditions have been met. Only speaking of one condition is proof of a lack of understanding and context.

      Arturia Pendragon00000 wrote: @Hagoromo Otsutsuki

      I think you're being mistaken somewhere. SPSM was given to Naruto by Hagoromo, NOT the Tailed Beasts. Naruto received the Tailed Beast Chakra when the Tailed Beasts themselves their Chakra to Naruto and when Obito also gave him the Eight and One Tails in his Kamui Dimension. Naruto, in Boruto still has Hagoromo's Chakra and can still use SPSM. In fact, he used SPSM against Momoshiki in the Manga. ( Even Naruto's eyes, that don't show pigmentation, like ordinary Sage Mode prove it ).

      I've addressed this already. You are speaking about a different condition than I am. The condition to receive the form is not the same condition to use the form. That is as simple as I can put it.

      Vladosaurus wrote: Having all the bijuu chakra made Naruto trigger Six Paths Senjutsu. Just like having Hashirama's cells (and him being an Indra reicarnation) made Sasuke trigger his rinnegan. Now nobody knows what Hagoromo did exactly, but his chakra probably speed up the awakening process for the boys, and also gave them special abilities namely Six Paths Sage Mode and Sasuke's special tomoes in his rinnegan, which let him keep his sharingan abilities in it. The main reason why Naruto has and had Six Paths Senjutsu in the first place was the bijuu chakra.

      Naruto still has Six Paths Sage Mode, still has the bijuu chakra, still has the healing ability. The only difference between Hokage Naruto and teen Naruto is that Hokage Naruto doesn't have the TSB anymore because they were all destroyed during the war.In exchange he has the other half of Kurama.

      Outside of hagoromo calling him the meeting place, what evidence is there of naruto retaining those 8 fragmented Biju chakra?

      What is the evidence of his current healing ability?

      I've proven that TSOS can replenish. Hagoromo proves this, so does Obito and kaguya. Naruto not having any TSOS is fixed by achieving more Rikudo senjutsu. Plus hagoromo wouldn't give naruto or sasuke power that leaves them forever reliant on his assistance. They have abilities that can be maintained and sustained without his direct help. Namely Rikudo senjutsu rsm and rinnegan. Sure they already have his Chaka, but even after he returned to the afterworld they kept those abilities. Sasuke still uses rinnegan because he meets the conditions to do so. Naruto doesn't use rsm because he doesn't all the conditions to do so. I'm not saying his mentality changed and he lost the mode, I'm saying he level of power changed and is no longer supportive of rsm. But simply gaining more fragments from the 8 Biju OR sealing the their actual bodies inside him will meet and/or exceed the condition of power to use rsm.

      But don't make claims that he's using a form when he's not showing any of the abilities of that form. Same goes for all claims that he uses rsm in conjunction with another form. Prove that outright if you can, otherwise drop that speculation entirely. Databook doesn't state he used a second form with rsm, it is a single form. Whereas the last guidebook states kurama mode was used with sage mode. Naruto' rsm has both the strongest tailed beast chakra and nature energy already. He doesn't need to add other modes to it.

      That is all.

      Oh my God, somebody just close this thread already. Buddy, there is no reason, no mention, not even canonically or uncanonically brought up the fact that Naruto lost his powers. This is fucking bullshit. What proof do i have? Dude, you literally provided yourself the passage from Shikamaru's novel where is clearly stated that Naruto has the all the 9 pieces of bijuu chakra and is a host for the power of the juubi.And you say that he can't using just to feed you shit arguments that make no sense.And Naruto never had large portions of bijuu chakra. He always ALWAYS only had small pieces.

      Also somebody here said that Naruto can't use his healing because he doesn't have the yang seal on his palm. Bullshit. The healing was because of yin-yang release and SPSM. Even a Naruto shadow clone healed Obito in the lava dimension. So if shadow clones could just use the seal whenever they wanted, why did the real Naruto bother to seal Kaguya in the first place? Why didn't he just send a shadow clone and not risk it? Again, the healing was because of yin-yang release and SPSM. The seal on Naruto's hand HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. And the data book clearly confirms this.

      Also since the war Naruto had 3 semnificant battles : Against Toneri where he clearly used KSM, in the Gaiden where he was fighting kids and didn't even bother to launch a decent attack and against Momoshiki where he couldn't use ninjutsu at all. So at what part exactly was he supposed to use bijuu chakra in these battles?

      Also give me a break, Naruto's TSB never regenerated. Newsflash, Naruto had in some panels TSB and in others none because he literally just sent his TSB as attacks, away from his body. Like for instance when he began his battle with Sasuke he only had 3 TSB left after the battles with Kaguya or Madara. Sasuke sent his susanoo arrows and Naruto countered them with his TSB. After that, guess what, the TSB, THE SAME 3 TSB returned on Naruto's back. And those 3 that he had left got destroyed in the Indra Arrow vs Dual rasenshuriken explosion. And the same thing happened every single time Naruto used TSB, hence why in some panels he was missing them, like when he launched 9 bijuu bombs rasenshurikens at Madara's satelites.

      For real, somebody just close this thread already.

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    • @everyone

      I actually believe that Hagoromo has a fair point. We have to be consistent here. If it's true that naruto still has the other bijuu, then why is his cloak so different? If he doesn't have the bijuu, then you can argue that he is using SPSM + KCM. But this argument rests on the claim that SPSM is sort of an upgrade to basic sage mode, but then why would naruto bother using frog sage mode if he has access to SPSM, in the last? You can argue that the lack of pigmentation debunks the idea that he is using frog sage mode, but then again, there is still the unrefuted claim that when kurama gathers the nature energy, the pigmentation doesn't appear. In the last, naruto enters BSM practically instantly. It makes sense he can, because his skill with sage mode should be completely refined by now. IDK how you can prove that kurama was the one gathering energy in that fight. You can make the argument that SPSM overrides the pigmentation that normal sage mode provides, but again, this isn't consistent. RSM's hallmark is the ten tail coffin seal and having ridoku senjutsu. TSOs aren't a good indicator because the user doesn't always use them, madara wasn;t using TSO when he fought naruto and sasuke. Ridoku senjutsu's only confirmed source is having juubi chakra. I highly doubt that you can get it from other means, because by that logic madara should have gotten six paths sage mode the minute he absorbed hashirama's sage mode, since after all, he had had hagromo's chakra and senjutsu coursing through his body. So clearly, ridoku senjutsu can't simply be generated by mainly having six paths chakra and senjutsu chakra. You need the juubi chakra. Hagoromo gave him the mode, and while it doesn't state he needs the juubi chakra to use SPSM, this by itself can't be the case if you are claiming in the same sentence that RSM is the juubi power. Remember, Madara himself claimed that once he absorbed the juubi he was a user of RSM, even though this very wiki claims he isn't a user lol.

      You could say that again in the 4SWW that naruto is using SPSM +KCM, but his KCM has a ten coffin seal and access to truth seeking orbs because he has all 9 tailed beast chakra, making him a juubi jinchuriki of sorts, and madara called this marker "six paths senjutsu". But if this is your claim, you would have to prove that six paths senjutsu isn't necessary to be in six paths sage mode, which doesn't make sense. So it's either naruto has the tailed beasts chakra in bortuo still and the cloak is a design error, or naruto doesn't have the other chakra anymore. You guys have to pick one.

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    • CombatIQmatters wrote: @everyone

      I actually believe that Hagoromo has a fair point. We have to be consistent here. If it's true that naruto still has the other bijuu, then why is his cloak so different? If he doesn't have the bijuu, then you can argue that he is using SPSM + KCM. But this argument rests on the claim that SPSM is sort of an upgrade to basic sage mode, but then why would naruto bother using frog sage mode if he has access to SPSM, in the last? You can argue that the lack of pigmentation debunks the idea that he is using frog sage mode, but then again, there is still the unrefuted claim that when kurama gathers the nature energy, the pigmentation doesn't appear. In the last, naruto enters BSM practically instantly. It makes sense he can, because his skill with sage mode should be completely refined by now. IDK how you can prove that kurama was the one gathering energy in that fight. You can make the argument that SPSM overrides the pigmentation that normal sage mode provides, but again, this isn't consistent. RSM's hallmark is the ten tail coffin seal and having ridoku senjutsu. TSOs aren't a good indicator because the user doesn't always use them, madara wasn;t using TSO when he fought naruto and sasuke. Ridoku senjutsu's only confirmed source is having juubi chakra. I highly doubt that you can get it from other means, because by that logic madara should have gotten six paths sage mode the minute he absorbed hashirama's sage mode, since after all, he had had hagromo's chakra and senjutsu coursing through his body. So clearly, ridoku senjutsu can't simply be generated by mainly having six paths chakra and senjutsu chakra. You need the juubi chakra. Hagoromo gave him the mode, and while it doesn't state he needs the juubi chakra to use SPSM, this by itself can't be the case if you are claiming in the same sentence that RSM is the juubi power. Remember, Madara himself claimed that once he absorbed the juubi he was a user of RSM, even though this very wiki claims he isn't a user lol.

      You could say that again in the 4SWW that naruto is using SPSM +KCM, but his KCM has a ten coffin seal and access to truth seeking orbs because he has all 9 tailed beast chakra, making him a juubi jinchuriki of sorts, and madara called this marker "six paths senjutsu". But if this is your claim, you would have to prove that six paths senjutsu isn't necessary to be in six paths sage mode, which doesn't make sense. So it's either naruto has the tailed beasts chakra in bortuo still and the cloak is a design error, or naruto doesn't have the other chakra anymore. You guys have to pick one.

      My Logic: @ CombatIQmatters

      1. Six Paths Sage Mode is a Jinchuriki Transformation. By dr1awing on all the Tailed Beast's Chakra Naruto enters Six Paths Sage Mode as a sort of initial state. His Chakra Cloak asks as a Kurama Mode, where he needs to meld his Chakra with with all the Tailed Beasts, granting him the Power of the Ten-Tails Jinchuriki.

      2. Naruto no longer holds the contagiousness of the other Tailed Beats within him, but he does have their Chakra, so while he can enter Six Paths Sage Mode, he can't enter it's Chakra Mode because he lacks their conscientiousness to work along side with. This would explain why he would rely on Kurama's own Chakra Mode further on.

      3. On the Point of "The Last" that simply could be due to the time it was made. They likely didn't have Six Paths Naruto and Sasuke to work with in the movie's early story boards. Sasuke is seen with a deactivated Rinnegan.

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    • @Little gen

      Fair enough, but as I had been thinking before, I always had the opinion that Hagoromo was more of a jump starter rather than a giver. IMO, sasuke would have developed a rinnegan, just way later in life, because look how long it took madara to get his rinnegan. Sasuke already got hashi cells from kabuto. They didn't have time to wait that long, the end of the world was nearing. Hagoromo just sped up the process. Naruto had mere slivers of the other bijuu chakra. We have seen that the ten tails's development was stunted by only having slivers of the eight tails and nine tails, and it took awhile for it to reach it's true form. Then when madara actually absorbed full bijuus except for half of kurama, look how fast the juubi developed, and he got a significantly different chakra cloak than Juubito different and it was stronger. So imo, for a similiar reason, it took time for naruto to knead the juubi chakra, and hagoromo handwaved the charge up time significantly by giving him his chakra and essentially "gave" him the mode, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't have developed RSM on his own with enough time. Even with hagormo's buff, it still took a decent while for the chakra cloak to fully develop. This better reconciles the idea that Madara and obito were users of RSM according to manga, whereas the wiki claims they arent users simply because Hagoromo supposedly gave a "unique" version of the mode himself that doesn't require any juubi chakra. So this was something in the back of my head when I typed the last post. It's pretty ironic actually that Hagoromo "gave" naruto the mode when hagoromo himself isn't listed as a user of this same ridoku sage mode except for when he was a TTJ.

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    • Vladosaurus wrote: Having all the bijuu chakra made Naruto trigger Six Paths Senjutsu. Just like having Hashirama's cells (and him being an Indra reicarnation) made Sasuke trigger his rinnegan. Now nobody knows what Hagoromo did exactly, but his chakra probably speed up the awakening process for the boys, and also gave them special abilities namely Six Paths Sage Mode and Sasuke's special tomoes in his rinnegan, which let him keep his sharingan abilities in it. The main reason why Naruto has and had Six Paths Senjutsu in the first place was the bijuu chakra.

      You make this claim a lot but there isnt any hard evidence to back that.


      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Again you're only noticing one condition and not the other. You're also omitting or forgetting that hagoromo had no Rikudo senjutsu to give to naruto which I already proved, yet naruto is able to awaken that power. Literally all his feats post his conversation with hagoromo was done while having different levels of Rikudo senjutsu. It is his other condition to enter rsm. It is his condition to achieve yin-yang release. It is his condition to reseal kaguya with the 2 Rikudo hand powers. Hagoromo said that many conditions have been met. Only speaking of one condition is proof of a lack of understanding and context.

      Quote the manga or databook. Give me the lines where he says that the Bijuu are necessary.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      I've proven that TSOS can replenish. Hagoromo proves this, so does Obito and kaguya. Naruto not having any TSOS is fixed by achieving more Rikudo senjutsu.

      You didnt prove that. Hagoromo had TSB's in death and when he came back they came with him. Please quote the line where Hagoromo says he has new TSB because of Madara's lower half

      Obito never made any brand new TSB's.

      Kaguya is the only character to make a TSB.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Plus hagoromo wouldn't give naruto or sasuke power that leaves them forever reliant on his assistance. They have abilities that can be maintained and sustained without his direct help. Namely Rikudo senjutsu rsm and rinnegan. Sure they already have his Chaka, but even after he returned to the afterworld they kept those abilities. Sasuke still uses rinnegan because he meets the conditions to do so. Naruto doesn't use rsm because he doesn't all the conditions to do so. I'm not saying his mentality changed and he lost the mode, I'm saying he level of power changed and is no longer supportive of rsm. But simply gaining more fragments from the 8 Biju OR sealing the their actual bodies inside him will meet and/or exceed the condition of power to use rsm.

      They arent relient on his power. They were permanent upgrades.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      But don't make claims that he's using a form when he's not showing any of the abilities of that form. Same goes for all claims that he uses rsm in conjunction with another form. Prove that outright if you can, otherwise drop that speculation entirely. Databook doesn't state he used a second form with rsm, it is a single form. Whereas the last guidebook states kurama mode was used with sage mode. Naruto' rsm has both the strongest tailed beast chakra and nature energy already. He doesn't need to add other modes to it.

      He used toad Sage Mode and Kurama mode in the last.

      Naruto's yellow-cross pupil was identified as SPSM in the databook and it has the ability to sense Limbo Clones while in this form.

      Littlegen wrote:

      You miss interpenetrated my point as it continued from my previous post. Six Paths Senjutsu is Kaguya's Power, as in the Ten-Tail's Chakra. I don't think there are more kinds of Six Paths Senjutsu because that doesn't make sense.

      Hagoromo and Hamura used 6 Paths Senjutsu to defeat the 10 Tails. So its not a Kaguya ability.

      CombatIQmatters wrote: @everyone

      I actually believe that Hagoromo has a fair point. We have to be consistent here. If it's true that naruto still has the other bijuu, then why is his cloak so different? If he doesn't have the bijuu, then you can argue that he is using SPSM + KCM. But this argument rests on the claim that SPSM is sort of an upgrade to basic sage mode, but then why would naruto bother using frog sage mode if he has access to SPSM, in the last?

      Because he didnt need SPSM

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      You can argue that the lack of pigmentation debunks the idea that he is using frog sage mode, but then again, there is still the unrefuted claim that when kurama gathers the nature energy, the pigmentation doesn't appear. In the last, naruto enters BSM practically instantly. It makes sense he can, because his skill with sage mode should be completely refined by now. IDK how you can prove that kurama was the one gathering energy in that fight.

      Its because Naruto cant gather Natural energy while on the move. But in the Last there are is at least one instance where he is in motion and activated toad Sage Mode.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      RSM's hallmark is the ten tail coffin seal and having ridoku senjutsu. TSOs aren't a good indicator because the user doesn't always use them, madara wasn;t using TSO when he fought naruto and sasuke. Ridoku senjutsu's only confirmed source is having juubi chakra.

      Madara had 6 Paths Senjutsu via the Coffin Seal, not SPSM. And yes. They are different. The Databooks differentiate between them and never addresses what Madara has as SPSM. The forms do pretty much the same thing they are just different means of obtaining them

      Madara only had one TSB amd because Naruto had SPSM and Sasuke had 6 Paths chakra it was only useful as a blunt weapon

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      I highly doubt that you can get it from other means, because by that logic madara should have gotten six paths sage mode the minute he absorbed hashirama's sage mode, since after all, he had had hagromo's chakra and senjutsu coursing through his body.

      From what we have seen SP Senjutsu isnt just SP chakra+Nature energy. Naruto has used basic Sage Mode and SPSM.

      Madara wouldnt be able to achieve the form because he never learned it himself(like Hagoromo/Hamura) and no one ever passed it on to him(like Naruto)

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      So clearly, ridoku senjutsu can't simply be generated by mainly having six paths chakra and senjutsu chakra. You need the juubi chakra. Hagoromo gave him the mode, and while it doesn't state he needs the juubi chakra to use SPSM, this by itself can't be the case if you are claiming in the same sentence that RSM is the juubi power. Remember, Madara himself claimed that once he absorbed the juubi he was a user of RSM, even though this very wiki claims he isn't a user lol.

      The databook explains that the Coffin Seal grants the Juubichuriki SP Senjutsu via the Juubi. Its fairly specific about this. The databook specifies SPSM as an ability that Hagoromo passed onto Naruto.

      We know Hagoromo had some form of 6 Paths Senjutsu because he and Hamura used SP Chibaku Tensei to seal Kaguya. We see that even in death he has SP Senjutsu because he has TSB.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      You could say that again in the 4SWW that naruto is using SPSM +KCM, but his KCM has a ten coffin seal and access to truth seeking orbs because he has all 9 tailed beast chakra, making him a juubi jinchuriki of sorts, and madara called this marker "six paths senjutsu". But if this is your claim, you would have to prove that six paths senjutsu isn't necessary to be in six paths sage mode, which doesn't make sense. So it's either naruto has the tailed beasts chakra in bortuo still and the cloak is a design error, or naruto doesn't have the other chakra anymore. You guys have to pick one.

      The mark on the back denotes the presence of all the Tailed Beasts chakra, its not indicative of the Coffin Seal.

      If Naruto isnt using all the Tailed Beasts chakra for his cloak the mark wont appear. It wasnt ever said how much of the other beasts chakra he has left. May be simply that it isnt enough to contribute to the cloak.

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    • Vladosaurus wrote:

      Oh my God, somebody just close this thread already. Buddy, there is no reason, no mention, not even canonically or uncanonically brought up the fact that Naruto lost his powers. This is fucking bullshit. What proof do i have?

      I have good news and bad news. Bad news is this rant you're on will be cut short, and that's because I have the proof you asked for which is the good news. Now asking for proof that naruto lost his 'powers' isnt specific, but what I have here is evidence Naruto lost his rikudo senjutsu as well as his source of that power. So hopefully that's what you meant.

      Let's start with Kurama mode. Here is Naruto' 'Half' Kurama Mode and "Complete Kurama Mode".[1] Here is hokge Naruto’ movie "Chakra Mode".[2] Here is hokge Naruto' anime Kurama Mode.[3]

      All this evidence proves the involvement a single Biju, kurama. Naruto speaks only to kurama on the Biju psyche plane(multiple times), Momoshiki senses only Kurama inside naruto[4], and we also know momoshiki extracted chakra from only Kurama@4:40.[5] I even shared a translation for the last guidebook about the form he used. It confirms that Naruto' war arc ksm and his ksm shown in the last are the same form. This definitively debunks his eyes being indicative of or exclusive to rsm. The eyes only tells us who is gathering the senjutsu. To recap, these are examples of only Kurama' power being used. Moving on.


      Now let's look at rsm. Here naruto fist bumps biju and speaks on the biju psych plane,[6] which is where he first aquires biju chakra other than Kurama. Fast forward to Naruto' and hagoromo' meeting, where among other things hagoromo states that Naruto has met multiple conditions required for the power he's about to receive.[7] One of which he and Kurama agree on is having chakra from each Biju. He goes on to call them out by name, further recognizing their presence. Those same 9 biju were Naruto' condition for rikudo senjutsu.[8] When their chakra is merged together it creates the juubi' chakra. When that happened, it essentially made Naruto a juubi jinchuriki because like Madara and Obito were Juubi jinchuriki themselves, he awakened rikudo senjutsu.

      That should be clear enough for you to understand that Naruto lost juubi chakra and his source of juubi chakra. You should also be able to understand the OP more.

      Naruto' former small amount of Biju chakra are greater than vestiges. By definition vestige means something is lost. Unless you about to claim that all Biju besides gyuki and kurama are lost, you must concede to the fact that the fragmented Biju chakra inside him is lost. What remains of them is a trace. This proves why they're function and usefulness has been reduced. Naruto can only communicate with them Gaara can with shukaku, and he barely proved capable of that. I recommend looking up the examples of small pieces and vestiges. Moving on

      I already stated that yin-yang release has a single known source. That is rikudo senjutsu. You now know how he got that power. Shadow clones are equally capable as the original, I don't see how that helps your claim. Naruto' rikudo hand power required rikudo senjutsu for everything it did. I stated this already. Moving on.

      Ive already proven TSOs can and do replenish. That proof is in my previous responses.

      CombatIQmatters wrote: @everyone

      I actually believe that Hagoromo has a fair point. We have to be consistent here. If it's true that naruto still has the other bijuu, then why is his cloak so different? If he doesn't have the bijuu, then you can argue that he is using SPSM + KCM. But this argument rests on the claim that SPSM is sort of an upgrade to basic sage mode, but then why would naruto bother using frog sage mode if he has access to SPSM, in the last? You can argue that the lack of pigmentation debunks the idea that he is using frog sage mode, but then again, there is still the unrefuted claim that when kurama gathers the nature energy, the pigmentation doesn't appear. In the last, naruto enters BSM practically instantly. It makes sense he can, because his skill with sage mode should be completely refined by now. IDK how you can prove that kurama was the one gathering energy in that fight. You can make the argument that SPSM overrides the pigmentation that normal sage mode provides, but again, this isn't consistent. RSM's hallmark is the ten tail coffin seal and having ridoku senjutsu. TSOs aren't a good indicator because the user doesn't always use them, madara wasn;t using TSO when he fought naruto and sasuke. Ridoku senjutsu's only confirmed source is having juubi chakra. I highly doubt that you can get it from other means, because by that logic madara should have gotten six paths sage mode the minute he absorbed hashirama's sage mode, since after all, he had had hagromo's chakra and senjutsu coursing through his body. So clearly, ridoku senjutsu can't simply be generated by mainly having six paths chakra and senjutsu chakra. You need the juubi chakra. Hagoromo gave him the mode, and while it doesn't state he needs the juubi chakra to use SPSM, this by itself can't be the case if you are claiming in the same sentence that RSM is the juubi power. Remember, Madara himself claimed that once he absorbed the juubi he was a user of RSM, even though this very wiki claims he isn't a user lol.

      You could say that again in the 4SWW that naruto is using SPSM +KCM, but his KCM has a ten coffin seal and access to truth seeking orbs because he has all 9 tailed beast chakra, making him a juubi jinchuriki of sorts, and madara called this marker "six paths senjutsu". But if this is your claim, you would have to prove that six paths senjutsu isn't necessary to be in six paths sage mode, which doesn't make sense. So it's either naruto has the tailed beasts chakra in bortuo still and the cloak is a design error, or naruto doesn't have the other chakra anymore. You guys have to pick one.

      I'm glad you see my point(s) and I agree with most that you said except for the omittance of TSOs. Obito & Madara had them,[9] that was a result of the being the juubi' jinchuriki, which novel evidence states Naruto essentially was. Madara fought at times without them because they either we're out of range or they disintergtated.

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    • @LegionZero

      When half dead obito steals chakra from madara, obito gets a truth seeking orb and staff. Madara said that obito could accomplish this because he was once in "sage mode". So they were using ridoku sage mode, unless you have another way of interpreting that statement.

      This six paths senjutsu and six paths sage mode distinction is highly confusing. How did Hagoromo pass on the mode if he himself isn't a user of this mode, he is only said to be a user of six paths senjutsu, and it was never stated how he acquired it, other than by having a rinnegan and senjutsu lol. And what you say is that six paths senjutsu is "learnable" but I don't see how that has been substantiated, it seems to be an attempt to reconcile how hagoromo and hamura got their six paths senjutsu. Obito had zero senjutsu experience and yet he became a sage after absorbing juubi according to madara. Pre TTJ Madara is complicated, because it seemed that he was in sage mode after he absorbed hashi's chakra, though the markings only appeared on hashi boob, it still seemed to augment all his skills. so if it's true that madara instantly grasped sage mode, then I don't see why he wouldn't be able to have six paths senjutsu, if it's true that juubi is simply a mass of six paths chakra and nature energy. Hagoromo and hamura could have simply absorbed juubi chakra from kaguya and that was the origin of their six paths senjutsu, or am I missing something?

      Ok, not being on the move is a good point. In the final battle with sasuke, it is true that even kurama itself in avatar form needed to be perfectly still so it could gather nature energy... So while kurama is inside naruto, i guess it is inherently perfectly still. But hokage naruto seems to debunk this, because in gaiden chapter 3 we see him seem to activate sage mode while he is running... so if we can prove that kurama did the gathering then I guess both of these examples prove that the pigmentation is an indicator of SPSM vs KSM.

      Naruto's cloak in the war had both the coffin seal and those tomoe on the back. So that was indicative of six paths senjutsu according to madara, which according to madara is the same thing as "sage mode"


      @Hagoromo, the theory is in doubt once again unfortunately, it seems that the pigmentation argument is still alive and strong, legionzero has breathed life back into it. but don't lose hope! There are still some questionable things, so I'm still on the fence.

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    • CombatIQmatters wrote: @Hagoromo, the theory is in doubt once again unfortunately, it seems that the pigmentation argument is still alive and strong, legionzero has breathed life back into it. but don't lose hope! There are still some questionable things, so I'm still on the fence.

      What claim(s) were made this time? Do they suggest I'm wrong? If so, how?

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    • @Hagoromo

      Claim is that in the last kurama gathered the sage chakra while kurama was "stationary" inside of naruto's body, and kurama then gave it to naruto, allowing him to enter KSM. This claim attempts to debunk the idea that when kurama gives him nature energy, there is no pigmentation, by citing the pigmentation shown in the movie. The supplementary claim is that naruto was on the move, and thus was not standing still when the energy was transfered to him, and thus he did not gather the energy

      I attempt to challenge this claim by citing chapter 3 of gaiden, where it appears naruto entered sage mode while running and without kurama's help. The lack of a cloak and the lack of the vertical slit should prove he isn't using kurama's chakra there, but I also haven't seen a precedent for kurama gathering chakra for him while naruto isn't using his cloak. The only other time we see kurama definitely doing it is during the fight with sasuke, where kurama, in avatar form, was sitting still and gathering nature energy.

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      Hagoromo and Hamura used 6 Paths Senjutsu to defeat the 10 Tails. So its not a Kaguya ability.

      Then I'm calling it flat out wrong.

      There aren't other ways to create Chakra. Even between Sage Mode, Sage Transformation, and The Curse Mark, the origin is all the same, Natural Energy infusing with Chakra. Kaguya's Chakra is the source of Six Paths Senjutsu Chakra.

      Naruto doesn't collect Natural Energy to enter Six Paths Sage Mode. Madara, who has recreated Hagoromo's Six Paths Chakra, had taken Hashirama's Sage Chakra and did not gain Six Paths Sage Chakra.

      The only described way of attaining Six Paths Sage Chakra is attaining the power of Kaguya or the Nine Tailed Beasts.

      So yeah, I'm willing to call the Data books wrong. And possibly "THE LAST" in regards of Hamura if they never explain how he attains Six Paths Sage Chakra.

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    • CombatIQmatters wrote: @Hagoromo

      Claim is that in the last kurama gathered the sage chakra while kurama was "stationary" inside of naruto's body, and kurama then gave it to naruto, allowing him to enter KSM. This claim attempts to debunk the idea that when kurama gives him nature energy, there is no pigmentation, by citing the pigmentation shown in the movie. The supplementary claim is that naruto was on the move, and thus was not standing still when the energy was transfered to him, and thus he did not gather the energy

      I attempt to challenge this claim by citing chapter 3 of gaiden, where it appears naruto entered sage mode while running and without kurama's help. The lack of a cloak and the lack of the vertical slit should prove he isn't using kurama's chakra there, but I also haven't seen a precedent for kurama gathering chakra for him while naruto isn't using his cloak. The only other time we see kurama definitely doing it is during the fight with sasuke, where kurama, in avatar form, was sitting still and gathering nature energy.

      You nailed it. Naruto was running and shown entering sage mode. Paired with his feat in the last, it should be clear that Naruto was the one gathering the nature energy in those instances.

      Littlegen wrote:

      LegionZero wrote:

      Hagoromo and Hamura used 6 Paths Senjutsu to defeat the 10 Tails. So its not a Kaguya ability.

      Then I'm calling it flat out wrong.

      There aren't other ways to create Chakra. Even between Sage Mode, Sage Transformation, and The Curse Mark, the origin is all the same, Natural Energy infusing with Chakra. And Kaguya's Chakra is the source of Six Paths Senjutsu.

      Naruto doesn't collect Natural Energy to enter Six Paths Sage Mode. Madara who HAS Six Paths Chakra had taken Hashirama's Sage Chakra and did not enter Six Paths Sage Chakra.

      The only described way of attaining Six Paths Senjutsu is attaining the power of Kaguya or the Nine-Tailed Beasts.

      So yeah, I'm willing to call the Data books wrong. And possibly "THE LAST" in regards of Hamura if they never explain how he attains Six Paths Senjutsu.

      I agree that LegionZero' claim is wrong. The fact that Hamura' Rikudo senjutsu source was never explained, and that his power led to toneri' own who can spawn TSOs to a spammable degree, claiming the juubi' power wasn't involved is both wrong and unproven. On top of that he's unable to cite a different source of that power, so it's moot regardless.

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    • Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Let's start with Kurama mode. Here is Naruto' 'Half' Kurama Mode and "Complete Kurama Mode".[1] Here is hokge Naruto’ movie "Chakra Mode".[2] Here is hokge Naruto' anime Kurama Mode.[3]

      Yes, KCM looks different as he gets older. What is the point here exactly?

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      All this evidence proves the involvement a single Biju, kurama. Naruto speaks only to kurama on the Biju psyche plane(multiple times), Momoshiki senses only Kurama inside naruto[4], and we also know momoshiki extracted chakra from only Kurama@4:40.[5] I even shared a translation for the last guidebook about the form he used.

      Tiny, undetectable amounts of tailed beast chakra can be left within a person and that it can be used to maintain a connection.(chapters 644 and 649)


      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      It confirms that Naruto' war arc ksm and his ksm shown in the last are the same form. This definitively debunks his eyes being indicative of or exclusive to rsm. The eyes only tells us who is gathering the senjutsu. To recap, these are examples of only Kurama' power being used. Moving on.

      They are not the same form. The Last has the rings of toad Sage Mode.

      Naruto is seen in the movie using Toad Sage Mode+Kurama Mode without gathering the natural energy himself.

      These are all instances of Naruto using only Kurama for his cloak.

      The databook established that the yellow Cross shaped pupils were SPSM.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Now let's look at rsm. Here naruto fist bumps biju and speaks on the biju psych plane,[6] which is where he first aquires biju chakra other than Kurama. Fast forward to Naruto' and hagoromo' meeting, where among other things hagoromo states that Naruto has met multiple conditions required for the power he's about to receive.

      He didnt mention the Bijuu for nearly an entire chapter after this and never before this point.

      Naruto also hadnt received the final bits of Shukkaku, Gyuki, and Yang Kurama for a whole chapter, so Hagoromo couldnt possibly have been refering to him having chakra of the 9 Bijuu.

      He was referring to the events that would end the world.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      [7] One of which he and Kurama agree on is having chakra from each Biju. He goes on to call them out by name, further recognizing their presence.

      Hagoromo and Kurama agreed that the prophicized end of the world had arrived.

      The proficy was of a blond haired blue eyed boy who would play with the Tailed Beasts. Nothing about joining them together again.

      Calling their name and recognizing their presence doesnt mean they were joining together again.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Naruto' former small amount of Biju chakra are greater than vestiges. By definition vestige means something is lost. Unless you about to claim that all Biju besides gyuki and kurama are lost, you must concede to the fact that the fragmented Biju chakra inside him is lost. What remains of them is a trace. This proves why they're function and usefulness has been reduced. Naruto can only communicate with them Gaara can with shukaku, and he barely proved capable of that. I recommend looking up the examples of small pieces and vestiges. Moving on

      Gonna ignore the fact that vestages doesnt necessarily mean something is completely gone? I literally provided the dictionary definition.

      Naruto proved in the war arc that there can be tiny, untracable amounts of tailed beast chakra left within a person and that it can be used to maintain a connection.(chapters 644 and 649)

      Naruto doesnt have enough to use for fighting but hes got enough that he is connected to them.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Ive already proven TSOs can and do replenish. That proof is in my previous responses.

      Your claims arent backed up by your sources. Obito never made more. Naruto never made more. Madara never made more. Please cite the chapters you believed this happened in.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Naruto' rikudo hand power required rikudo senjutsu for everything it did. I stated this already. Moving on.

      I quoted almost every entry from the databook about the hand seal and none of them say that it did the things you say. It was only said to be used for SP Chibaku Tensei.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote: You nailed it. Naruto was running and shown entering sage mode.

      It didnt show him entering Sage mode while running it showed him running in Sage Mode

      Littlegen wrote: Then I'm calling it flat out wrong.

      Call it wrong all you want but the manga showed this too. (Ch 690)

      Littlegen wrote:

      There aren't other ways to create Chakra. Even between Sage Mode, Sage Transformation, and The Curse Mark, the origin is all the same, Natural Energy infusing with Chakra.

      These are all different ways to achieve Sagehood. The process by which Juugo becomes a Sage is different than the process Naruto uses to become a Sage and they have different properties to their abilities. Even Snake Sages and Toad Sages have different abilities even though they are both Sages.

      Littlegen wrote:

      And Kaguya's Chakra is the source of Six Paths Senjutsu.

      Except its not. Hagoromo and Hamura inherited 6 Paths Chakra and learned SP Senjutsu

      Littlegen wrote:

      Naruto doesn't collect Natural Energy to enter Six Paths Sage Mode.

      It is senjutsu. It needs Nature energy. Whether he gathers it or not is irrelevent because the manga showed and told us Kurama can gather it for him.

      Littlegen wrote:

      Madara who HAS Six Paths Chakra had taken Hashirama's Sage Chakra and did not enter Six Paths Sage Chakra.

      Because he never learned how to do it. Even Obito didnt have it either and he stole Sage chakra straight from Juubidara.

      But Hagoromo had it after extracting the Juubi.

      Littlegen wrote:

      The only described way of attaining Six Paths Senjutsu is attaining the power of Kaguya or the Nine-Tailed Beasts.

      It tells Hamura and Hagoromo had before defeating Kaguya. Just because it is unexplained does not mean it is wrong.

      CombatIQmatters wrote: @LegionZero

      When half dead obito steals chakra from madara, obito gets a truth seeking orb and staff. Madara said that obito could accomplish this because he was once in "sage mode". So they were using ridoku sage mode, unless you have another way of interpreting that statement.

      That was Black Zetsu's body

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    • I think you guys/ girls should just agree to disagree because it seems like a consensus won’t be reached. That being said this has been a interesting discussion and I’ll happily butt out now

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    • Here is my revised take on this nature energy controversy.

      Nature energy is nature energy. Where was it stated that there are different kinds of nature energy? to me, the difference lies in how the nature energy is moulded with your physical and mental energy. Toad sages tell you to do it one way, and when you balance your nature energy perfectly and then mix it with your other energies the toad way, it causes a mutation in the cells around your eye, causing them to release a protein that gives that pigmentation. snake snages tell you another way to balance it and have it interact. Same thing for hashi's sage mode, with the method he uses to create his senjutsu chakra, it creates black pigment around his face. For juugo, his body genetically is coded to take in nature energy passively. when his senjutsu chakra is created, it creates a strong reaction, making his brain chemistry go out of whack and significantly mutating his body.

      Now with that established, the juubi's chakra gives off the same sensations as nature energy itself, so it can't be sensed except by using sage mode. but this statement seems to be contraadicted because the databook also claims the juubi is natural energy itself, which makes it confusing. juubi chakra is also described to be six paths senjutsu chakra. Obito absorbed the juubi and once he gained full control, he gained full access to this chakra. This chakra granted him sage mode according to madara. OBito has no senjutsu skill whatsoever, he doesn't know how to absorb nature energy nor how to mould senjutsu chakra. So it seems to me that he got sage mode because the ten tails chakra itself is six paths senjutsu chakra. so here we go, it's possible to enter sage mode by simply stealing senjusu chakra, also proven when madara absorbed hashirama's senjutsu chakra. so the question is, how are you supposed to create six paths senjutsu if having six paths chakra and senjutsu chakra isn't enough? The only known source of six paths senjutsu chakra is the juubi. However, by my own admisson, there are different types of senjutsu chakra that can be created (snake senjutsu, toad senjutsu, etc. while the stat benefits are the same, there are different physical properties to each senjutsu depending on the senjutsu chakra is moulded together. So MAYBE, hagoromo learned how to mix his own ridoku chakra with nature energy in a way that it created six paths senjutsu (as opposed to toad senjutsu or snake senjutsu), the same chakra the juubi creates. I guess this is possible, but it could just be as easily be the case that this isn't possible, and that they only way to recreate juubi chakra is to steal it from the ten tails or mix the 9 bijuu chakra.


      But see, this argument still falls on its head, because hokage naruto should still have the coffin seal and tomoe on his chakra cloak, regardless if he has all the bijuu or not. using the logic that naruto "learned" or gained the ability to create six paths senjutsu and enter six paths sage mode from hagoromo would still dicate that his chakra cloak, when he enters SPSM+ KCM, would still have six paths senjutsu influencing it. So either way you twist it, there is some inconsistency here. The implication is that Hokage naruto does not have SPSM. In some pictures you can even see that hokage naruto's eyes lack pigmentation but are red, and lack the yellow color. You can also see that his chakra cloak covers his face differently.

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    • WindStar7125
      WindStar7125 removed this reply because:
      spam
      03:55, September 7, 2018
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    • @LegionZero

      Call it wrong all you want but the manga showed this too. (Ch 690)

      1. These are all different ways to achieve Sagehood. The process by which Juugo becomes a Sage is different than the process Naruto uses to become a Sage and they have different properties to their abilities. Even Snake Sages and Toad Sages have different abilities even though they are both Sages.

      2. Except its not. Hagoromo and Hamura inherited 6 Paths Chakra and learned SP Senjutsu

      3. It is senjutsu. It needs Nature energy. Whether he gathers it or not is irrelevent because the manga showed and told us Kurama can gather it for him.

      4. Because he never learned how to do it. Even Obito didnt have it either and he stole Sage chakra straight from Juubidara. But Hagoromo had it after extracting the Juubi.

      5. It tells Hamura and Hagoromo had before defeating Kaguya. Just because it is unexplained does not mean it is wrong.

      1) I'm assuming you're referring to these pair of panels. [[1]] And no, it doesn't. There are no Truth Seeker Orbs about them and they only hold black monk staves. Even in another instances they don't have them. [[2]] [[3]] This[[4]] would act as stronger evidence in your favor, though even this doesn't fully support in the idea he had it prior to becoming the Ten-Tail's Jinchuriki. Kaguya, through Black Zetsu or even her Chakra itself, is privy to information post her sealing, such as when she recognized Ashura and Indra's Chakra within Naruto and Sasuke[[5]].

      1.5) The Origin is all the same. Juugo's Clan unique bodies naturally absorbs Nature energy and the special fluids within their body reacts to the presence of Sage Chakra. And those are Techniques. The Toad's Toad Sage Fist and Snake's Inorganic Animation, are techniques taught by the respective Sage animals. It is not suggested that if one were to learn from both animals they would be unable to utilize the later's technique.

      2. [Edit: This was under the assumption you wrote "Six Paths Sage Chakra"] Then why didn't Madara gain it when he recreated Hagorormo's Chakra within himself[[6]]? Or Sasuke when he did the same?

      3) The Ten-Tails is Nature incarnate[[7]]. Having It's Chakra is manipulating Sage Chakra itself.

      4) Oh, he learned how to control it[[8]].

      5) There is no possible way they learned it before. There isn't a way. If there was Obito and Madara wouldn't go after the Tailed Beasts. That line of thinking also brings the question how did they learn it? Kaguya? She was too busy being crazy. Gamamaru? Filler and how would they he know how to use Six Paths Sage Jutsu? Self-Taught? Possible but highly unlikely, cause as I said, the only method of obtaining this power is through the Tailed Beasts.

      @CombatQmatters

      Toad sages tell you to do it one way, and when you balance your nature energy perfectly and then mix it with your other energies the toad way, it causes a mutation in the cells around your eye, causing them to release a protein that gives that pigmentation. snake snages tell you another way to balance it and have it interact. Same thing for hashi's sage mode, with the method he uses to create his senjutsu chakra, it creates black pigment around his face. For Juugo, his body genetically is coded to take in nature energy passively. when his Senjutsu Chakra is created, it creates a strong reaction, making his brain chemistry go out of whack and significantly mutating his body.

      The method of taking in Natural Energy is all the same. If anything, it's the summoning contract that effects the summoner on the physical sense.

      Many techniques leave their marks on the body. Sage Mode and the Curse Mark yeah, but others like the Yin Seal does also. Their just physical manifestations of techniques.

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    • LegionZero wrote: Yes, KCM looks different as he gets older. What is the point here exactly?
      My point is that

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote: these are examples of only Kurama' power being used. Moving on.


      LegionZero wrote: Tiny, undetectable amounts of tailed beast chakra can be left within a person and that it can be used to maintain a connection.(chapters 644 and 649)

      You're only proving my point. The same chapter you cite debunks you. Everyone in the alliance was given a small amount of kurama chakra from Naruto. Each of those fragmented chakra shrunk down to functionless levels.[1] This is the exact thing that happened to Naruto' 1-8 tails fragments.[2] The kicker here is realizing how the alliance got those depleted chakras back functional levels; they relied on the actual biju. It was Naruto, who used the half of kurama inside minato, who delegated more chakra to those 40 thousand fragments.[3][4] None of the alliance was able to gain more kurama chakra on their own or without the help of kurama himself. So what makes you think Naruto can gain more 1-8 tails chakra on his own? He can't. Thinking that he can is both textbook insanity and contradictory to your own logic. Just like the alliance, Naruto' depleted vestiges must be replenished by actual biju or at the very least a larger fragment of their chakra. Since there's no canon support for this happening, those vestiges inside Naruto remain unusable and functionless just like the depleted kurama fragments were inside the members of alliance before naruto aided them.


      LegionZero wrote:

      They are not the same form. The Last has the rings of toad Sage Mode.

      The hypocrisy is astounding. You are ready to claim that every image on the rsm databook page depicts Naruto in rsm but aren't able to do the same about ksm in the last guidebook. You must be allergic to consistency. Anyways, the translation of the last guidebook confirms that they are in fact the same mode. Now, you'd be directly contradicing canon if you claim otherwise.

      LegionZero wrote:Naruto is seen in the movie using Toad Sage Mode+Kurama Mode without gathering the natural energy himself.

      Where's the proof of this claim?

      LegionZero wrote: These are all instances of Naruto using only Kurama for his cloak.

      Bad argument kurama plays a part in literally all of Naruto' cloaks. He also has the ability to gather nature energy, there's no denying that. I was told not to LOL, but just know I didn't read that with a straight face. You saying that is no different from me saying all rasengans variants are ninjutsu.

      LegionZero wrote: The databook established that the yellow Cross shaped pupils were SPSM.

      See I knew you were a hippocrate. Anyways, his eyes weren't specifically acknowledged or highlighted by the databook the way juubi'chakra was. This claim will never be more than that.

      LegionZero wrote: He didnt mention the Bijuu for nearly an entire chapter after this and never before this point.

      You just cited 2 points in the manga that was 3 chapters apart, so whatever your point was here you're a worse example of it.

      LegionZero wrote: Naruto also hadnt received the final bits of Shukkaku, Gyuki, and Yang Kurama for a whole chapter, so Hagoromo couldnt possibly have been refering to him having chakra of the 9 Bijuu. He was referring to the events that would end the world.

      You're wrong because the agreed prophecy didn't exclude 1, 8, or 9 tails.

      LegionZero wrote: Hagoromo and Kurama agreed that the prophicized end of the world had arrived.

      The proficy was of a blond haired blue eyed boy who would play with the Tailed Beasts. Nothing about joining them together again.

      Calling their name and recognizing their presence doesnt mean they were joining together again.

      But they did and that was enough for both hagoromo and kurama to agreed that he fulfilled the prophecy and that's why you're wrong.

      LegionZero wrote:

      Gonna ignore the fact that vestages doesnt necessarily mean something is completely gone? I literally provided the dictionary definition.

      I'm well aware of the other possible meanings of the word, but after the example you provided in those two cited chapters we both have a better understanding of what that word means in context. It just as I stated.

      LegionZero wrote:Naruto proved in the war arc that there can be tiny, untracable amounts of tailed beast chakra left within a person and that it can be used to maintain a connection.(chapters 644 and 649)

      Which you know by now further proves me right since those depleted chakras were rejuvenated by a greater chakra which never canonically happened to Naruto.

      LegionZero wrote:Naruto doesnt have enough to use for fighting but hes got enough that he is connected to them.

      Which is why they're called vestiges. I accept your concession.

      LegionZero wrote: Your claims arent backed up by your sources. Obito never made more. Naruto never made more. Madara never made more. Please cite the chapters you believed this happened in.

      Madara' jinchuriki body was used to make more by hagoromo and kaguya.[5][6][7] Obito made more[8][9][10][11]


      LegionZero wrote: I quoted almost every entry from the databook about the hand seal and none of them say that it did the things you say. It was only said to be used for SP Chibaku Tensei.

      It just so happen that each healing feat was done with the same hand that had the rikudo power on it, and the seal on guy's chest after Naruto placed that same hand there is just coincidence, just like Sasuke' rinnegan awakening on the same side that he got his rikudo hand power right. It's all just meaningless coincidences.

      LegionZero wrote:

      Call it wrong all you want but the manga showed this too. (Ch 690)

      Unless you are certain of how that happened, citing it does nothing for your claims.

      LegionZero wrote: Except its not. Hagoromo and Hamura inherited 6 Paths Chakra and learned SP Senjutsu

      Evidence of Hamura having rikudo chakra is where? Why hasn't any of hamura' descendants awakened rinnegan? Where's the evidence either hamura or hagoromo awakening rikudo senjutsu without the juubi' chakra?

      LegionZero wrote: It is senjutsu. It needs Nature energy. Whether he gathers it or not is irrelevent because the manga showed and told us Kurama can gather it for him.

      It is relevant since his appearance changes depending on who gathers that energy. Something you failed to grasp earlier in this response. Don't disregard facts because they inconvenience you.

      LegionZero wrote:

      Because he never learned how to do it. Even Obito didnt have it either and he stole Sage chakra straight from Juubidara.

      In truth it's because you dont gain rikudo senjutsu from mixing rikudo chkra and senjutsu, but you rather formulate excuses that you aren't prepared to defend. Next you'll say every juubi jinchuriki specifically studied how to make rikudo senjutsu instead of admitting juubi' chakra is rikudo senjutsu.

      LegionZero wrote: It tells Hamura and Hagoromo had before defeating Kaguya. Just because it is unexplained does not mean it is wrong.

      It does make you wrong. Your claims go unproven, you're guessing. There is no way to verify any claims you make without context evidence proof. Etc. We aren't here to believe you or give you the benefit of the doubt. Either you know what you're talking about and can cite sources to confirm your claims or you don't and can't. Based on what we're seeing from you, you don't and can't.

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    • Ok, let's establish a few things

      Juubidara and Juubito were in sage mode as per Juubiara's statement. The wiki also sayys that becoming a TTJ is a form of sage transformation, which was also established as sage mode. It's clear they had ridoku sage mode, aka six paths sage mode, calling it something else should be semantics...

      Ridoku senjutsu's only known source is the juubi. Juubito became a ridoku sage after absorbing the juubi, despite having no senjutsu training whatsoever. This is proof that the juubi can grant its jinchuriki six paths senjutsu and sage mode, even if they had no prior training. No one can prove how hagoromo and hamura got their six paths senjutsu chakra, so why is it still being discussed? We are talking about a manga where chakra absorption abilities can steal senjutsu chakra. Why is it hard to believe that hagoromo could have used his rinnegan to absorb six paths senjutsu from the juubi, similiar to how madara did to hashi? Logically, Six paths senjutsu should be a mixture of 1/3 ridoku physical energy, 1/3 spiriual ridoku energy, and 1/3 nature energy. Nature energy is nature energy. Even the juubi is pure nature energy as per canon. Logically, Madara who became a sage after absorbing senjutsu chakra and mixing it with his ridoku chakra, should have gotten six paths sage mode. The fact that he didn't could simply mean that six paths senjutsu actually has another component to it that we don't know about, and logically, the juubi would have this missing component. Even if you claim that hagoromo figured out how to make ridoku senjutsu, all you're saying is that he found a way to recreate juubi chakra, as madara referenced the coffin seal and tomoe on naruto's back as proof of ridoku senjutsu, i.e. juubi chakra. Saying that the markings on narutos's cloak are basically because he has all 9 bijuu chakra is a concession, because having all 9 bijuu chakra is what gives you ridoku senjutsu.

      So, as I said, hokage naruto lacks the coffin seal and tomoe, lacks yellow eyes ( in pictures I see them as orange), and has his KCM cloak covering his face, those facts combine should show that he isn't using SPSM like he did in the war. we know he hasn't lost hagoromo's chakra. So the lack of pigmentation actually isn't proof in this case, since there other features missing. so, either naruto hasn't showed it because he hasn't felt the need? or otherwise he lost access, or the cloaks aren't being drawn correctly. IT is also implied that he doesn't have the other beast chakra in useable amounts, so he probably can't knead ridoku senjutsu. This is all reconciled if you acknowledge that naruto ( all 9 tailed beasts available) and sasuke (hashirama cells from kabuto) would have developed both of their respective abilities, but hagoromo simply sped up the process. So yes he "gave" them the abilities by simply accelerating what they were already going to get. Naruto had mere slivers of the other 8, so it probably wasn't possible for him to attain ridoku senjutsu without hagoromo's help. IT's hard to say for sure, but I don't see why this isn't a viable alternative theory. The last patch to make is the naruto who kicked the TSO. This could easily be explained by the fact he hadn't summoned enough senjutsu chakra to have his truthseekers and chakra cloak. We have never seen TTJ madara without a cloak, so I wonder what the "KNO" version of a TTJ is. and notice how naruto's TSOs only formed once he got his ridoku senjutsu cloak, similiar to juubidara and obito...

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    • CombatIQmatters wrote: So, as I said, Hokage Naruto lacks the Coffin Seal and Tomoe, lacks yellow eyes (in pictures I see them as orange), and has his KCM cloak covering his face, those facts combine should show that he isn't using SPSM like he did in the war.

      I chalk it all up to lack of communication and stubbornness in the new staff. The anime also tends to color visuals wrongly, since all the way back when Naruto's and everyone's Chakra was presented as Blue.

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    • CombatIQmatters wrote: Ok, let's establish a few things

      Juubidara and Juubito were in sage mode as per Juubiara's statement. The wiki also sayys that becoming a TTJ is a form of sage transformation, which was also established as sage mode. It's clear they had ridoku sage mode, aka six paths sage mode, calling it something else should be semantics...

      You can call it semantics but the databook is very specific about the termonology used to describe the results of the Coffin Seal versus SPSM.

      There isnt a source that equates Sage Transformation and Sage Mode. If they were the same they wouldnt have 2 different names. And 2 different databook entries. Sage Transformation also has unique properties not found in Sage Mode users. The databook entry legitimately says that the form of Senjutsu achieved by Jugo's clan is called Sage Transformation. Sage Mode isnt used to describe this form at all[[1]]

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Ridoku senjutsu's only known source is the juubi. Juubito became a ridoku sage after absorbing the juubi, despite having no senjutsu training whatsoever. This is proof that the juubi can grant its jinchuriki six paths senjutsu and sage mode, even if they had no prior training.

      Madara/Obito wouldnt need prior training because yes, the Juubi provides SP Senjutsu. But that doesnt mean it is the only possible way to achieve it.

      Chakra itself was the only accessible through the fruit of the God Tree, until Hagoromo and Hamura were born with it. They were actually born with 6 Paths Chakra. Much like Hashirama they could have learned to take in natural energy to form SPSM. Hagoromo was also friends with Sage creatures who could have taught him about Senjutsu

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      No one can prove how hagoromo and hamura got their six paths senjutsu chakra, so why is it still being discussed?

      We dont discredit Hashirama's Sage Mode just because it was never explained how he learned it so why discredit Hagoromo/Hamura's unexplained SP Senjutsu. Its not like Hagoromo wasnt friends with Sage animals.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      We are talking about a manga where chakra absorption abilities can steal senjutsu chakra. Why is it hard to believe that hagoromo could have used his rinnegan to absorb six paths senjutsu from the juubi, similiar to how madara did to hashi?

      We saw what happened when Naruto got cought by the Juubi/Shinju this is probably why 6 Paths CT is an instant win technique.

      Obito took Senjutsu chakra from Juubidara and he himself had 6 Paths chakra but did not have SPSM or SP Senjutsu.

      There is also precedent where chakra absorbers didnt gain Senjutsu by absorbing senjutsu chakra. Preta Pain gained no amps from absorbing Senjutsu chakra

      Madara did gain Sage Mode by absorbing Hashirama's chakra into his Hashiboob. Its questionable if he would have been able to do so if he didnt have such intense body modifications.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Logically, Madara who became a sage after absorbing senjutsu chakra and mixing it with his ridoku chakra, should have gotten six paths sage mode. The fact that he didn't could simply mean that six paths senjutsu actually has another component to it that we don't know about, and logically, the juubi would have this missing component.

      I see your point here, but Sasuke combined all of the Bijuu's chakra into Susanoo and he didnt have SP Senjutsu Susanoo. Kurama himself confirmed that he was doing what Hagoromo did to split the Tailed Beasts but in reverse and was using Susanoo as the vessel for the combined chakra.(ch 696)

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Even if you claim that hagoromo figured out how to make ridoku senjutsu, all you're saying is that he found a way to recreate juubi chakra, as madara referenced the coffin seal and tomoe on naruto's back as proof of ridoku senjutsu, i.e. juubi chakra.

      Except there is never any mention of a second Juubi chakra. We know that a second mass of Bijuu chakra will create a duplicate of that Bijuu, but its clear that all of the bijuu chakra inside Naruto remained as seperate entities.(ch 673, 674, 688, 696)

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Saying that the markings on narutos's cloak are basically because he has all 9 bijuu chakra is a concession, because having all 9 bijuu chakra is what gives you ridoku senjutsu.

      This is like saying using Water release and lightning release at the sametime is using Storm Release. It is possible to have all 9 without combining them into 1

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      So, as I said, hokage naruto lacks the coffin seal and tomoe, lacks yellow eyes ( in pictures I see them as orange), and has his KCM cloak covering his face, those facts combine should show that he isn't using SPSM like he did in the war. we know he hasn't lost hagoromo's chakra.

      To me his eyes match the dark yellow outlines of his cloak. Probably done so whe can actually see his eyes considering KCM1 Naruto's eyes were barely visible. Is there a color version of the Boruto manga/7th hokage gaiden? I want to see how it was handled in the manga.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      You're only proving my point. The same chapter you cite debunks you. Everyone in the alliance was given a small amount of kurama chakra from Naruto. Each of those fragmented chakra shrunk down to functionless levels.[2] This is the exact thing that happened to Naruto' 1-8 tails fragments.[3] The kicker here is realizing how the alliance got those depleted chakras back functional levels; they relied on the actual biju. It was Naruto, who used the half of kurama inside minato, who delegated more chakra to those 40 thousand fragments.[4][5] None of the alliance was able to gain more kurama chakra on their own or without the help of kurama himself. So what makes you think Naruto can gain more 1-8 tails chakra on his own? He can't. Thinking that he can is both textbook insanity and contradictory to your own logic. Just like the alliance, Naruto' depleted vestiges must be replenished by actual biju or at the very least a larger fragment of their chakra. Since there's no canon support for this happening, those vestiges inside Naruto remain unusable and functionless just like the depleted kurama fragments were inside the members of alliance before naruto aided them.

      I never said that he could get more on his own. My point was he had their chakra, just not a lot, and if he wanted he could talk to the other bijuu.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      The hypocrisy is astounding. You are ready to claim that every image on the rsm databook page depicts Naruto in rsm but aren't able to do the same about ksm in the last guidebook. You must be allergic to consistency. Anyways, the translation of the last guidebook confirms that they are in fact the same mode. Now, you'd be directly contradicing canon if you claim otherwise.

      The 4th databook SPSM entry shows the yellow/cross pupil form that first appeared in 672 and the cloaked version in 673

      The Last guidebook doesnt confirm they are the same mode. The last guidebook says he has Kurama Mode and can use it with Sage Mode at the same time [[6]] this form first appeared in 645

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Where's the proof of this claim?

      When Hamura's golem first attacked Naruto was jumping about when he activated Sage Mode.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      See I knew you were a hippocrate. Anyways, his eyes weren't specifically acknowledged or highlighted by the databook the way juubi'chakra was. This claim will never be more than that.

      The image of him kicking the TSB was him with the yellow-cross pupils. If this wasnt considered SPSM it wouldnt be on the page. How am i a hypocrite if that form is acknowledged with an image on the page?

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      You just cited 2 points in the manga that was 3 chapters apart, so whatever your point was here you're a worse example of it.

      Naruto didnt even have the chakra of all the Tailed Beasts chakra when Hagoromo said certain conditions were met so he could not have been talking about having all the Tailed Beasts chakra.

      Hagoromo wasnt talking about Tailed Beasts at that point at all.

      Hagoromo started talking about the history of Kaguya, himself, and his sons and how Madara was seeking to end the world. Then he made a request of Naruto to stop Madara.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      But they did and that was enough for both hagoromo and kurama to agreed that he fulfilled the prophecy and that's why you're wrong.

      He didnt fulfill the prophecy. He had yet to change the world. Hagoromo believed him to be the one to do it but this had nothing to do with the "conditions" from the chapter earlier.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      I'm well aware of the other possible meanings of the word, but after the example you provided in those two cited chapters we both have a better understanding of what that word means in context. It just as I stated.

      You mean the chapters i cited that confirmed the chakra was there just very very tiny? But still there.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Which you know by now further proves me right since those depleted chakras were rejuvenated by a greater chakra which never canonically happened to Naruto.

      Never said he did i just he had some but it was tiiiiiiny. I conceded nothing because the definition you chose is wrong according to the novel.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Madara' jinchuriki body was used to make more by hagoromo and kaguya.[7][8][9] Obito made more[10][11][12][13]

      Hagoromo materialized himself and his TSB from the afterlife. Those TSB are not new.

      Obito manipulated Black Zetsu's body in a manner similar to TSB. You can literally see the bits of Black Zetsu coming off.

      Madara doesnt have all of Kaguya's abilities. So even though she could do it doesnt mean he can.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      It just so happen that each healing feat was done with the same hand that had the rikudo power on it, and the seal on guy's chest after Naruto placed that same hand there is just coincidence, just like Sasuke' rinnegan awakening on the same side that he got his rikudo hand power right. It's all just meaningless coincidences.

      Its Naruto's dominant hand. Naruto displayed this healing ability in the Boruto movie.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Unless you are certain of how that happened, citing it does nothing for your claims.

      That is a fallacy. Thats like saying Hashirama doesnt have Sage Mode because it was never revealed how he learned it. Or that Madara doesnt use a gunbai because we never saw how he obtained it

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Evidence of Hamura having rikudo chakra is where?

      He and Hagoromo using a SP Senjutsu technique on Kaguya.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Why hasn't any of hamura' descendants awakened rinnegan?

      Because he inherited the Byakugan from Kaguya and Hagoromo inherited the Rinnegan.

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      Where's the evidence either hamura or hagoromo awakening rikudo senjutsu without the juubi' chakra?

      Them using SP Chibaku Tensei to seal her. Later on Hamura had TSB

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      It is relevant since his appearance changes depending on who gathers that energy. Something you failed to grasp earlier in this response. Don't disregard facts because they inconvenience you.

      Except in the Last Naruto had toad Sage Markings at a time when he couldnt have possibly gathered that energy himself

      Hag0r0m0 0htsutsuki wrote:

      It does make you wrong. Your claims go unproven, you're guessing. There is no way to verify any claims you make without context evidence proof. Etc. We aren't here to believe you or give you the benefit of the doubt. Either you know what you're talking about and can cite sources to confirm your claims or you don't and can't. Based on what we're seeing from you, you don't and can't.

      Hagoromo and Hamura used CP Chibaku Tensei to seal Kaguya.

      • Ch 690
      • Hamura's databook entry

      (Hamura) was the younger brother who sealed the Jyuubi together with his older brother Hagoromo. Hamura became the head of the Otsutsuki clan after the battle. In order to stand guard at the sealed Jyuubi’s essential body (/vessel), which is the Gedou Mazou that was produced by the “Rikudou Chibaku Tensei”, he and his clan migrated together towards the moon.[[14]]

      • 6 Paths Chibaku Tensei Entry

      Six Paths Chibaku Tensei is invoked when two users simultaneously touch their target with the "Yin" and "Yang" seals. It rips a giant chunk of earth up and turns it into a heavenly body, becoming the Prison of Six Paths (六道の獄 Rokudō no Goku) that can capture all things (万物捕, "banbutsuto"). It's a sealing jutsu that can be used by individuals who awaken Six Paths Senjutsu. [[15]] Dont give me attitude because Kishimoto gave us the what and not the how.

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    • This Natural Energy gather debate is really luke warm. In the time it took Naruto and Kurama to exchange a few words, Naruto was already in Sage Mode. [[1]] He had two years to train in gathering more Natural energy and melding it faster.

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    • @littlegen:in the scan you provided Naruto was not moving. No matter how much time he had to train, being completely still is necessary to gathering Nature Energy.

      He wasnt completely still when entering Sage Mode against Hamura's golem in the Last.

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    • Moving while infusing Sage Chakra is impossible. If he did so it's another inconsistency in The Last.

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    • @LegionZero

      I actually had Pain absorbing naruto's chakra in mind. He was actually becoming a frog sage but then he turned to a frog statue because he couldn't control the nature energy chakra. Theorectically, if nagato had training, then his preta path would have had sage mode, so naruto was actually taking a big risk there. Madara is also known as asspulldara, so that's probably how he could instantly grasp sage mode after absorbing nature energy chakra from base hashirama. So given this feat, why would it be unprecendented for hagoromo to have done something similiar? We have seen obito absorb sage chakra from madara and we see it gave him the ability to get a truth seeking staff. Hagoromo could have learned it I suppose but this should still have been an option.

      Madara states it was possible for obito to do this because he was previously in sage mode. I understand the databook doesn't make the connection but the manga does. The manga equates sage transformation with sage mode. I'm looking into colored boruto manga. I don't have trouble with your other points, but the whole 9 bijuu thing is complicated. When obito was stealing the one tails and eight tails from madara, we saw the juubi as a massive of chakra that each looked like the 9 tailed beasts. The same thing happened when obito got his beasts pulled out by the alliance, and something similiar happened when kaguya got hit by 9 rasenshuriken. The fragmented nature of the juubi is kinda weird, so that's why I beleive it's possible that while the 9 bijuu by itself isn't enough, hagoromo could have gifted the ability for naruto's 9 bijuu to create ridoku senjutsu inside of him.

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    • LegionZero wrote: You can call it semantics but the databook is very specific about the termonology used to describe the results of the Coffin Seal versus SPSM.

      There isnt a source that equates Sage Transformation and Sage Mode. If they were the same they wouldnt have 2 different names. And 2 different databook entries. Sage Transformation also has unique properties not found in Sage Mode users. The databook entry legitimately says that the form of Senjutsu achieved by Jugo's clan is called Sage Transformation. Sage Mode isnt used to describe this form at all[[1]]

      The manga equates them. Juugo says Kabuto' and his own transformation are the same.[2] Manga and databook also established how they each became sages. Kabuto mastered snake sage mode on his own after finding ryuchi cave and learning from the white snake sage. Juugo clan resides in ryuchi cave and developed a trait to passively absorb nature energy.[3][4][5][6]

      ---Proof of Kabuto' Sagehood---

      1. Konoha Hundred Leafs Collection No. 54

      The Mysterious World Spread Out The Big Three Unexplored "Sage" Regions

      The three big Summoning Animals, summoned by Konoha's proud Legendary Three Ninja ― Jiraiya, Tsunade and Orochimaru. They inhabit the "Myobokuzan", "Shikkotsurin" and "Ryuchido" which had great influence on the ninja world since ancient times. Therefore they're considered to be unexplored regions, and are said to be places still wrapped in many mysteries.

      Ryuchido ⬅ The place where Kabuto studied at the side of the White Snake Sage.

      ⬆ The Shikkotsurin is where Tsunade's and Sakura's Summoning Katsuyu lives.

      Myobokuzan ⬆ Also called the "Mountain of Bewilderment". From Konoha, it's one month of walking away.

      2. Sage Art: Inorganic Animation Spoiler: Senjutsu, Ninjutsu User(s): Yakushi Kabuto

      Granting life to the inorganic earth!!

      By filling the atmosphere with Natural Energy, this Sage Art can be used to enslave inorganic substances such as the earth. Amongst the various Sage Modes, only those who have mastered the Sage Art of Ryuchi Cave are allowed to wield it. As the earth is infused with life, a pulse violently courses through its blood vessels, causing it to swell outward. The ground, as well as the walls and ceiling, begin to rumble like a living organism. The spines protruding from its flesh walls can be manipulated in order to impale an opponent.

      Caption: Stretching freely as if made of clay, the cavern's interior transforms. The unpredictable movement of the converging floor and ceiling even caught Itachi, genius of the Uchiha, off guard.

      3.[7]

      4.[8]

      ---Proof of Juugo' Sagehood--- Page 106, Jugo

      Kana: 重吾 (ジュウゴ) Databook romanisation: JYUUGO

      Village: Otogakure Rank: ―

      Ninja registration number: ― Birthday: 1st October (19 years old, Libra) Height: 202.1 cm • Weight: 75.8 kg • Blood type: AB Personality: My pace, cowardly, brutal

      Natures: Wind, Earth, Water, Yang Classification: SAGE

      Favorite He prefers the nature and animals that let his mind rest. With the Curse Seal strengthening his hearing, he also enjoys talking to the animals!!

      When he keeps the arrangement of heaven and earth in his body He cannot resist becoming a grotesque looking SAGE!!

      Guhahahahaha, I'll kill you all!!

      ⬆ Directly distributing his chakra and flesh, he saves a dying Sasuke's life. He's also capable of doing things that exceed human knowledge.

      You can't die... because you're Kimimaro's memento

      A descendant from a clan with a unique genetical make-up. Taking in the natural energy that's overflowing the earth, he turns into a brutal "SAGE".... As a friend and patron of Sasuke, who is Kimimaro's memento, he swears to risk his life for his protection and his feelings. Therefore, Jugo won't ever forgive those who stand in the way of Sasuke's will. To burn Sasuke's way of life into his eyes, Jugo struggles through the tumultuous ninja world


      As I said, databook and manga evidence proves them as sages and equates their forms. I accept your concession.

      LegionZero wrote:

      Madara/Obito wouldnt need prior training because yes, the Juubi provides SP Senjutsu. But that doesnt mean it is the only possible way to achieve it.

      Evidence of another source is where?

      LegionZero wrote:

      Chakra itself was the only accessible through the fruit of the God Tree, until Hagoromo and Hamura were born with it. They were actually born with 6 Paths Chakra.

      Let me stop you right there. Before chakra production was taught(and even after), the populace had energy called stamina. That stamina is used for chakra production, in both ninshu and ninjutsu. Prior to ninshu people lacked knowledge of chakra and chakra production. That's why it wasn't around until kaguya ate the shinju fruit.

      Also what evidence is there that hamura has rikudo chakra? And if he does why hasn't his own power produced a single rinnegan or a mere sharingan, in over 1000 years including his descendants?

      LegionZero wrote: Much like Hashirama they could have learned to take in natural energy to form SPSM. Hagoromo was also friends with Sage creatures who could have taught him about Senjutsu

      That's filler, hashirama sage mode is unexplained, and hagoromo' chakra and senjutsu alone failed to recreate rikudo senjutsu. Whereas a known power of rikudo chakra, the rinnegan, awakened automatically in an elderly madara and a 17 year old Sasuke. Likewise a known power of the juubi, rikudo senjutsu, automatically awakens inside those with enough of its own chakra. You are debunked.

      LegionZero wrote:

      We dont discredit Hashirama's Sage Mode just because it was never explained how he learned it so why discredit Hagoromo/Hamura's unexplained SP Senjutsu. Its not like Hagoromo wasnt friends with Sage animals.

      His sage mode isnt discredited, it just cant be expounded on because like hamura we know nothing about how he awakened that power. If you dont know about eithers awakened power then how can you use it against me, or to support your claims? You can't.


      LegionZero wrote: We saw what happened when Naruto got cought by the Juubi/Shinju this is probably why 6 Paths CT is an instant win technique.

      I don't see your point.

      LegionZero wrote: Obito took Senjutsu chakra from Juubidara and he himself had 6 Paths chakra but did not have SPSM or SP Senjutsu.

      Obiti took 'some sage power' and automatically spawned a TSO, thats evidence of some measure of rikudo senjutsu.

      LegionZero wrote:There is also precedent where chakra absorbers didnt gain Senjutsu by absorbing senjutsu chakra. Preta Pain gained no amps from absorbing Senjutsu chakra

      It was made clear that the path took in too much and didn't balance that energy. Which is comparable to obito' initial jinchuriki form and kaguya' unstablized juubi which she turned into an ETSO.

      LegionZero wrote: Madara did gain Sage Mode by absorbing Hashirama's chakra into his Hashiboob. Its questionable if he would have been able to do so if he didnt have such intense body modifications.

      Madara used his already existing hashirama power to gain sage mode. Keeping the sage mode active is a feat in itself.

      LegionZero wrote: I see your point here, but Sasuke combined all of the Bijuu's chakra into Susanoo and he didnt have SP Senjutsu Susanoo. Kurama himself confirmed that he was doing what Hagoromo did to split the Tailed Beasts but in reverse and was using Susanoo as the vessel for the combined chakra.(ch 696)

      The susanoo containing juubi chakra was never sealed inside sasuke like the actual juubi was inside Madara and obito and hagoro, nor was it like the small amount of juubi chakra that was produced inside naruto. The juubi chakra in Sasuke' susanoo remained outside his body. In every instance where rikudo senjutsu is used, juubi chakra is inside the person. That's the difference.

      LegionZero wrote:

      Except there is never any mention of a second Juubi chakra. We know that a second mass of Bijuu chakra will create a duplicate of that Bijuu, but its clear that all of the bijuu chakra inside Naruto remained as seperate entities.(ch 673, 674, 688, 696)

      Novel scan says Naruto was essentially a host for the juubi. I explained that significance already. I wont argue in circles.

      LegionZero wrote: This is like saying using Water release and lightning release at the sametime is using Storm Release. It is possible to have all 9 without combining them into 1

      Multiple sources confirmed the cooperation and mixing of those chakra, I proved that already as well.

      LegionZero wrote: To me his eyes match the dark yellow outlines of his cloak. Probably done so whe can actually see his eyes considering KCM1 Naruto's eyes were barely visible. Is there a color version of the Boruto manga/7th hokage gaiden? I want to see how it was handled in the manga.

      This is another concession, his eyes were already explained. Color of cloak to that degree is in the realm of nitpicking.

      LegionZero wrote: I never said that he could get more on his own. My point was he had their chakra, just not a lot, and if he wanted he could talk to the other bijuu.

      Hokage Naruto lacks feats of speaking to other biju and as i said to there is no evidence of any other biju sending naruto more chakra, nor any of a chakra transfer like what obito did. He doesn't have their cooperation. This proves beyond all doubt that hokage Naruto only uses kurama.

      LegionZero wrote:The 4th databook SPSM entry shows the yellow/cross pupil form that first appeared in 672 and the cloaked version in 673

      The OP warns about the dangers of misinterpretation and disregarding context, yet you continue to do so. Thats the source of your confusion. Plus the databook page makes no mention of his eyes. Good news is l already explained his eyes.

      LegionZero wrote: The Last guidebook doesnt confirm they are the same mode. The last guidebook says he has Kurama Mode and can use it with Sage Mode at the same time [[9]] this form first appeared in 645

      It does equate their forms and soon after it's first appearance during the war it was used with sage mode. Just like in the guidebook page.

      LegionZero wrote:

      When Hamura's golem first attacked Naruto was jumping about when he activated Sage Mode.

      Naruto enters sage mode while running in gaiden chapter 700+3 page 11. You're debunked, again.


      LegionZero wrote: The image of him kicking the TSB was him with the yellow-cross pupils. If this wasnt considered SPSM it wouldnt be on the page. How am i a hypocrite if that form is acknowledged with an image on the page?

      You're ignoring the description of the image, you know, the part that tells you what you're actually looking at. It's like you've never read a newspaper or textbook or even a map? I guess you pretend to know what those images mean also? A lack of context is why you continue to be wrong.

      LegionZero wrote: Naruto didnt even have the chakra of all the Tailed Beasts chakra when Hagoromo said certain conditions were met so he could not have been talking about having all the Tailed Beasts chakra.

      Hagoromo wasnt talking about Tailed Beasts at that point at all.

      Hagoromo wouldn't have agreed with kurama if that were true.

      LegionZero wrote:Hagoromo started talking about the history of Kaguya, himself, and his sons and how Madara was seeking to end the world. Then he made a request of Naruto to stop Madara.

      You conveniently skipping over major details. Like how hagoromo 'battled ten-tails, an incarnation of the divine tree and sealed it inside him[10], how he later 'partitioned the power of ten-tails and named each of the peices' and how ashura gained power through cooperation[11], and how he 'believed that the bond known as cooperation was true power'.[12] and how he sees naruto as 'quite similar to ashura[13]. Dont skip facts that inconvenience you. Iirc, you called it 'fluff' from the databook.


      LegionZero wrote:

      He didnt fulfill the prophecy. He had yet to change the world. Hagoromo believed him to be the one to do it but this had nothing to do with the "conditions" from the chapter earlier.

      Hagoromo believed in cooperation, Naruto being able to namr each biju meant he had theirs at that point. You are debunked, again.

      LegionZero wrote:You mean the chapters i cited that confirmed the chakra was there just very very tiny? But still there.

      Yea, the same ones that made you concede.

      LegionZero wrote: Never said he did i just he had some but it was tiiiiiiny. I conceded nothing because the definition you chose is wrong according to the novel.

      Actually you did concede, unless you have evidence of 1-8 tails giving chakra to and cooperating with hokage Naruto?


      LegionZero wrote: Hagoromo materialized himself and his TSB from the afterlife. Those TSB are not new.

      Obito manipulated Black Zetsu's body in a manner similar to TSB. You can literally see the bits of Black Zetsu coming off.

      Madara doesnt have all of Kaguya's abilities. So even though she could do it doesnt mean he can.

      Hagoromo needing Madara' torso debunks that. If the power was akread in him he could manifest himself like Obito did right after he turned into a pile of ash.

      Can you cite a similar feat from black zetsu to support your claim?

      Kaguya did make a new 1, it was even superior to the former version, and she used his TSO-less body to make it.


      LegionZero wrote:Its Naruto's dominant hand. Naruto displayed this healing ability in the Boruto movie.

      You're wrong, Naruto didn't use yin-yang to heal Sasuke's flesh. When he gave out 40 thousand chakra cloaks he was fojng way more healing than that. Debunked, again.

      LegionZero wrote:That is a fallacy. Thats like saying Hashirama doesnt have Sage Mode because it was never revealed how he learned it. Or that Madara doesnt use a gunbai because we never saw how he obtained it

      The only fallacy here is you association fallacy. No one denies those feats. What youre failing to grasp is your own incapability to explain them. You dont have the context to do so. You have nothing to support any claims you make about how either of them attained those powers.

      LegionZero wrote: He and Hagoromo using a SP Senjutsu technique on Kaguya.

      You've failed to prove rikudo senjutu is rikudo chakra numerous times. Either cite irrefutable evidence or admit your claims have no base in truth.

      LegionZero wrote: Because he inherited the Byakugan from Kaguya and Hagoromo inherited the Rinnegan.

      Then those are different chakra. Thats like saying senju chakra is same as uchiha chakra, or ashura chakra is the same as indra chakra. Smh.

      LegionZero wrote: Them using SP Chibaku Tensei to seal her. Later on Hamura had TSB

      How does that prove juubi' power wasn't used?


      LegionZero wrote:Except in the Last Naruto had toad Sage Markings at a time when he couldnt have possibly gathered that energy himself

      But he did, because he could, and his eyes prove that.


      LegionZero wrote: Hagoromo and Hamura used CP Chibaku Tensei to seal Kaguya.

      • Ch 690
      • Hamura's databook entry

      (Hamura) was the younger brother who sealed the Jyuubi together with his older brother Hagoromo. Hamura became the head of the Otsutsuki clan after the battle. In order to stand guard at the sealed Jyuubi’s essential body (/vessel), which is the Gedou Mazou that was produced by the “Rikudou Chibaku Tensei”, he and his clan migrated together towards the moon.[[14]]

      • 6 Paths Chibaku Tensei Entry

      Six Paths Chibaku Tensei is invoked when two users simultaneously touch their target with the "Yin" and "Yang" seals. It rips a giant chunk of earth up and turns it into a heavenly body, becoming the Prison of Six Paths (六道の獄 Rokudō no Goku) that can capture all things (万物捕, "banbutsuto"). It's a sealing jutsu that can be used by individuals who awaken Six Paths Senjutsu. [[15]] Dont give me attitude because Kishimoto gave us the what and not the how.

      None of that, I repeat NONE OF THAT STATES HOW HE AWAKENED RIKUDO SENJUTSU.

      You're skipping to the finish line without showing any of the running. You're presenting a cake without showing any of the recipe. Stop telling me about the end result when I'm asking for the process. We all know hamura awakened rikudo senjutsu. The issue is his method. Since you admitted to not knowing how, it's moot. You don't have nor can you cite a second source of that power. You have to concede, and I thank you for doing so.

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    • lol wait isn't sasuke a user of six paths senjutsu by that logic since he could use that same six paths chibaku tensei? I thought it was just the seal on his hand that had the "six paths senjutsu"

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    • CombatIQmatters wrote:

      lol wait isn't sasuke a user of six paths senjutsu by that logic since he could use that same six paths chibaku tensei? I thought it was just the seal on his hand that had the "six paths senjutsu"

      Not necessarily. Characters can use jutsu that were prepared by others. As seen in the manga, the two markings returned to Hagoromo and he was the one who activated the actual SPCT. All Naruto and Sasuke had to do was place the markings on Kaguya.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      I actually had Pain absorbing naruto's chakra in mind. He was actually becoming a frog sage but then he turned to a frog statue because he couldn't control the nature energy chakra. Theorectically, if nagato had training, then his preta path would have had sage mode, so naruto was actually taking a big risk there. Madara is also known as asspulldara, so that's probably how he could instantly grasp sage mode after absorbing nature energy chakra from base hashirama. So given this feat, why would it be unprecendented for hagoromo to have done something similiar? We have seen obito absorb sage chakra from madara and we see it gave him the ability to get a truth seeking staff. Hagoromo could have learned it I suppose but this should still have been an option.

      We know for a fact that Obito didnt create a Truth Seeking anything after stealing Juubidara chakra. That he was manipulating the shape of Black Zetsu

      Hagoromo could have absorbed some of the chakra in theory but the juubi itself can absorb chakra and i doubt the Rinnegan beats the Juubi in a chakra absorbing contest

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      The manga equates sage transformation with sage mode.

      No it didnt.

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    • LegionZero wrote: @combat: Not necessarily. Characters can use jutsu that were prepared by others. As seen in the manga, the two markings returned to Hagoromo and he was the one who activated the actual SPCT. All Naruto and Sasuke had to do was place the markings on Kaguya.

      No he didn't. [1]

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    • Since when does black zetsu generate truth seeking orbs? Are you saying that madara was mistaken? Because he attributed that truth seeking staff to obito stealing his SPS chakra. To me, black zetsu 's skin was used as the medium but he used SPS to create the truth seeking orb from that material. Back before the black zetsu retcon, madara seemed to create him using ying-yang release, so it makes sense that obito could manipulate black zetsu's skin and use it to make a truth seeking orb. the orb itself even pokes a hole through obito's hand just like it did when he was the TTJ. Even if I'm somehow wrong there, madara said that obito was once in "sage mode". The only thing he could be referring to is when obito underwent sage transformation as the TTJ. Also, half dead obito stole some chakra from TTJ Madara, either that is PIS or it's possible to steal chakra from an entity stronger than yourself.

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    • Littlegen wrote:

      No he didn't. [1]

      Quite literally one page later it shows Hagoromo getting the seals back and clapping his hands together and the planetoid forms around Kaguya

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Since when does black zetsu generate truth seeking orbs?

      He doesnt. Obito used his bodies malleability to replicate a Truth Seeker

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Are you saying that madara was mistaken?

      The admins said that in the the original japanese version Madara called what Obito did Sage Transformation[[2]]

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Because he attributed that truth seeking staff to obito stealing his SPS chakra.

      No he didn't. all he did was note that Obito took some Senjutsu chakra.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      To me, black zetsu 's skin was used as the medium but he used SPS to create the truth seeking orb from that material. Back before the black zetsu retcon, madara seemed to create him using ying-yang release, so it makes sense that obito could manipulate black zetsu's skin and use it to make a truth seeking orb.

      Being made from Yin-Yang doesnt mean he has the same attributes of TSB. TSB also has every nture transformation.

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      the orb itself even pokes a hole through obito's hand just like it did when he was the TTJ.

      Replicating or having similar behavior doesnt mean that it has become something else. There numerous abilities in the series that replicate other powers or abilities but they arent the same.

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    • Lol, I have to hand it to you there, that is a very clever counter-argument, but it does feel a bit contrived. So basically you are trying to sell me on the idea that obito formed that TSO, turns into the exact same staff he had has a fully realized TTJ, all for the notsalgia he had for temporally being of the same powers as the founder shinobi, and to showboat to madara that he could no longer continue to "step" on him, and that it has NOTHING to do with the Senjutsu chakra he absorbed from madara? the same senjutsu chakra that has been linked to the formation of TSO? And that the TSO staff obito had has none of the properites it had when he was a TTJ, it was simply him using black zetsu goo?

      I can't refute it though, so I'll have to concede until I doublecheck. @Hagoromo, I am afraid this point may have been debunked for the time-being.

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    • CombatIQmatters wrote: Lol, I have to hand it to you there, that is a very clever counter-argument, but it does feel a bit contrived. So basically you are trying to sell me on the idea that obito formed that TSO, turns into the exact same staff he had has a fully realized TTJ, all for the notsalgia he had for temporally being of the same powers as the founder shinobi, and to showboat to madara that he could no longer continue to "step" on him, and that it has NOTHING to do with the Senjutsu chakra he absorbed from madara? the same senjutsu chakra that has been linked to the formation of TSO? And that the TSO staff obito had has none of the properites it had when he was a TTJ, it was simply him using black zetsu goo?

      I can't refute it though, so I'll have to concede until I doublecheck. @Hagoromo, I am afraid this point may have been debunked for the time-being.

      His claims aren't supported at all, by his own admittance. The black zetsu was colorized the same as limbo when sasuke was looking at him with his newly awakened rinnegan.[1] Since his entire premise of that TSO being made from zetsu is colorization. This logic forces him to claim that black zetsu are also limbo clones, which is just as blatantly wrong.

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    • LegionZero wrote:

      Littlegen wrote: No he didn't. [1]

      Quite literally one page later it shows Hagoromo getting the seals back and clapping his hands together and the planetoid forms around Kaguya

      It did not work like that.

      They initiated the technique and the seal activated before we're shown Hagoromo. Hagoromo even states he's about to work on bringing them back, ie summoning the past spirits.

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    • @Hagoromo lol I knew my headcanon had some basis. It does seem like black Zetsu himself is made of six paths senjutsu for some reason. It makes sense, he was the product of some kind of self fertilization fling that kaguya had, a direct progeny. So i feel like once obito absorbed sage chakra, we he was able to interact with black zetsu and turn his skin into truth seeking staff, but I'm not sure. but it would still prove that juubi chakra from madara gave him the six paths senjutsu manipulation ability. But maybe this is just awful headcanon.

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    • CombatIQmatters wrote: @Hagoromo lol I knew my headcanon had some basis. It does seem like black Zetsu himself is made of six paths senjutsu for some reason. It makes sense, he was the product of some kind of self fertilization fling that kaguya had, a direct progeny. So i feel like once obito absorbed sage chakra, we he was able to interact with black zetsu and turn his skin into truth seeking staff, but I'm not sure. but it would still prove that juubi chakra from madara gave him the six paths senjutsu manipulation ability. But maybe this is just awful headcanon.

      Its like arguing that zetsu was the receiving vessel for that chakra,but that makes obito equally a vessel. Plus the 2 of them continuously fought over control of his body and at the time Obito had control, so its his feat regardless. That feat being his manipulation of rikudo senjutsu and (allegedly)black zetsu into a TSO.

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    • Black Zetsu is not a TSB and he isnt made out of TSB, he cant become a TSB. BLakc Zetsu is Black Zetsu, a talking, amorphous blob that has some minor shapeshifting abilities.

      @Hag0r0m0: Stop telling saying I concede anything or that anything has made me concede. I didn't do anything. You keep twisting/bending/ignoring facts that I and a few others have presented to you(such as the fact that Hagoromo & Hamura had SP Senjutsu before defeating the 10 tails as noted by at least 3 separate databook entries). Im sick of you claiming others wrong simply because of your pre-concieved notions. After this i simply refuse to respond to you on this subject and I would greatly appreciate if you ignore my posts as well.

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    • LegionZero wrote: Black Zetsu is not a TSB and he isnt made out of TSB, he cant become a TSB. BLakc Zetsu is Black Zetsu, a talking, amorphous blob that has some minor shapeshifting abilities.

      @Hag0r0m0: Stop telling saying I concede anything or that anything has made me concede. I didn't do anything. You keep twisting/bending/ignoring facts that I and a few others have presented to you(such as the fact that Hagoromo & Hamura had SP Senjutsu before defeating the 10 tails as noted by at least 3 separate databook entries). Im sick of you claiming others wrong simply because of your pre-concieved notions. After this i simply refuse to respond to you on this subject and I would greatly appreciate if you ignore my posts as well.

      Youve been debunked on many fronts, by your own sources even. Ive never shifted my main point, in fact my initial replies reflects my more recent ones and this thread is approaching 200 replies. The only thing that's changed is the amount of support and evidence that confirms my statements.

      You've admitted to your own ignorance on the topic and surrounding topics, you've largely failed to provide proof of your claims. You blatantly commit fallacy, and most of all you've proved a greater lack of context than my own. You can't disprove the OP, all.your attempts have failed.

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    • Yeah, I personally think that with time maybe the boruto manga will clarify things better, still haven't gotten a chance to get my hands on a colored manga page to confirm the color of hokage naruto's eyes.

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    • @combat: Even if the eyes arent yellow there is still the healing feat in the movie version and flying in the anime version.

      There is a possibiliy that since the cloak he used against Kaguya was an extension of SPSM and the one from the Last onward isn Kurama Mode it would mix with the SPSM yellow eyes and become orange

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    • CombatIQmatters wrote: Yeah, I personally think that with time maybe the boruto manga will clarify things better, still haven't gotten a chance to get my hands on a colored manga page to confirm the color of hokage naruto's eyes.

      I don't see the point, but colored pages do exist.[1][2]

      LegionZero wrote: Even if the eyes arent yellow there is still tje healing feat in the movie version and flying in the anime version

      Naruto healed faster during sage training because of Kurama, during the last war Naruto healed the alliance with Kurama, adding to the evidence against your claim. Hokage Naruto' alleged flight is discussed is also disproven in the OP. Your argument keeps changing. It went his eyes have crosshairs and lack rings around them, now its their color. It's as if you don't even understand its significance.

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    • Those arent official color pages...

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    • LegionZero wrote: Those arent official color pages...

      What relevance does the color have?

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    • @Hagoromo

      The color of the pupils is to determine if hokage naruto still has yellow eyes when he is using the SPSM mode that many fans think he is still using. If the the eyes are yellow it could provide some measure of proof, as we know when he was using SPSM in the war arc the pupils were yellow.

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    • The color was shown in the anime. His eye pattern was explained beyond refute, so now the focus has shifted to eye color. What case can be made about Naruto' eye color?

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    • His eye pattern is SPSM but you won't accept it, how is it beyond refute?

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    • AsianReaper wrote: His eye pattern is SPSM but you won't accept it, how is it beyond refute?

      He also keepsnigniring the factbthat Naruto was shown flying in the anime version of the fight against Momoshiki.

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    • That detail is interesting though. His Sage eyes are orange instead of Yellow like it was in the War, suggesting it's not the same form.

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    • @ Littlegen: unlike the cloak he used against Madara/Kaguya, he is now using Kurama Mode. Also unlike in the war he doesnt have pigments around his eyes.

      But he was also flying against Momoshiki, a SPSM exclusive ability. The orange

      The orange eyes are most likely a result of the Kurama Mode's red eyes mixing with SPSM yellow eyes, the same way they mixed with toad SM's yellow eyes

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    • @CombatIQmatters The anime depicts the colors of Naruto' eyes. I dont see what the confusion is here. Clearly it's shown to be different. Adult Hokage Naruto using ksm has orange eyes(boruto episode 20 @13:54). Rsm teen Naruto has yellow eyes(Shippuden episode 424 @12:17). So pointing that out only furthers the divide between the 2 forms. Again they are established in multiple ways as different, so while I hear their claims, this reason and many others is why it's wrong.

      @AsianReaper I also explained his eyes beyond refute because there weren't any and still are no counters presented. Nor is there any conflicting logic in canon. The only thing opposing my proven clarification of Naruto' eyes is your own speculation. His eyes failed to prove indicative of rsm alone. The last guidebook has naruto using kurama sage mode and having rings around his eyes. The same form is shown again in boruto movie, anime, manga, and novel without rings around his eyes and makes it clear he is not in rsm. I gave multiple examples in previous replies. These are the reasons why the logic you're using is faulty. There's plenty of evidence against that claim.

      @LegionZero I disproved hokage Naruto' alleged flight in the OP, it's towards the end of the reading (Counter 2). Be sure to watch and listen to each clip, they dont just look the same they sound the same, because it's the same feat. If you understand how Naruto is able to use kurama as explained in the last guidebook, you'll realize he's been propelling himself with kurama since before he met hagoromo. That's what those clips prove and it's why Naruto isn't flying as he does in rsm.

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    • The Last shows Kurama Mode and states that Sage Mode can be stacked on top of it. The image is of Kurama Mode with no Sage powers added. The pupils are round.

      Propelling himself with Kurama chakra would allow him to travel around Momoshiki's attack in a spiral shape. When he deflected the TBB's he traveled in a clear arc with a take off point and landing point. in Boruto there was no arc at all.

      The moon's gravity was significantly lessened allowing Naruto to float and push himself about this can be seen by the free floating debris all around

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    • [Again?] @Legion Zero

      That suggests that the Chakra Cloak used by Naruto after meeting Hagoromo was an extension of the Sage Mode and not Kurama Mode.

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    • It makes more sense that the Chakra Cloak was different in the 4th Shinobi World War because Naruto was actively drawing on the power of the other Tailed Beasts for it. Each one was in that fight with him, unlike in The Last or in Boruto. Now, they can contact him and he can contact them, but he isn't drawing on their power for his battles anymore.

      Chakra Cloaks were never a part of any Sage Mode, they were always part of Tailed Beast Chakra.

      And Naruto has shown that the cross-slit pupils without pigmentation is its own mode, when he first showed it. Idk why there's so much confusion

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    • AsianReaper wrote: It makes more sense that the Chakra Cloak was different in the 4th Shinobi World War because Naruto was actively drawing on the power of the other Tailed Beasts for it. Each one was in that fight with him, unlike in The Last or in Boruto. Now, they can contact him and he can contact them, but he isn't drawing on their power for his battles anymore.

      Chakra Cloaks were never a part of any Sage Mode, they were always part of Tailed Beast Chakra.

      And Naruto has shown that the cross-slit pupils without pigmentation is its own mode, when he first showed it. Idk why there's so much confusion

      Because we don't know what Six Paths Sage Mode, only that it was given to Naruto.

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    • Maybe it's the thing that let him kick the Truth Seeking Orb while he didn't have a chakra cloak. Seems like a safe bet.

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    • AsianReaper wrote: Maybe it's the thing that let him kick the Truth Seeking Orb while he didn't have a chakra cloak. Seems like a safe bet.

      This very image was in the databook so its very much what SPSM is.

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    • I love mechanics for techniques and knowing how they all tie together. Six Paths Sage Mode bothers me because it doesn't fit right. We aren't told how it works in context of activation.

      I like to categorize it as a Tailed Beast Transformation as it thematically fits with Naruto's theme of cooperation.

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    • @AsianReaper,


      That is a fine observation, but the issue with that is that it' doesn't disprove the bijuu powers being involved. We already have seen that jinchuriki can have eye changes without any cloak. see KN0. There is also the fact that there is a precedent for incomplete TTJ transformations, see mindless JUUBITO. His cloak was incomplete initially, though he still had the coffin seal etc. There is also the fact that being a TTJ is being in sage mode, though LegionZero offered a translation that I haven't double checked as yet , so could be wrong, but just resurfacing the idea.

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    • CombatIQmatters wrote: @AsianReaper,


      That is a fine observation, but the issue with that is that it' doesn't disprove the bijuu powers being involved. We already have seen that jinchuriki can have eye changes without any cloak. see KN0. There is also the fact that there is a precedent for incomplete TTJ transformations, see mindless JUUBITO. His cloak was incomplete initially, though he still had the coffin seal etc. There is also the fact that being a TTJ is being in sage mode, though LegionZero offered a translation that I haven't double checked as yet , so could be wrong, but just resurfacing the idea.

      Almost every time Bijuu chakra is involved, some form of chakra cloak is present. The only time it isn't is when very little is leaking out.

      What reasonable evidence is there to support that it wasn't just SPSM that Naruto used to kick the Truth Seeking Orb?

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    • . The Naruto that saved Guy lacked the coffin seal, chakra cloak, and TSO. Six paths senjutsu is required to enter six paths sage mode. Madara claimed that being a juubi jinchuriki means you are in sage mode, meaning having the TSO and the coffinseal cloak. Now, this claim was refuted on the grounds of mistranslation, but I would like to have that confirmed. The point of this thread is to show that "juubi chakra" or the chakra of the nine tailed beasts is required for naruto to enter SPSM, and hagoromo essentially jump-started naruto's engine and gave him the ability to achieve the mode by using the fragmented tailed beast chakra in his body. Naruto's eyes when he kicks the TSO has the vertical slit (kurama chakra) and horizontal frog slit(frog sage mode). So he was under Sage mode influence and kurama influence, is all I can currently tell you for sure. The OP's theory is that naruto was slowly but surely kneading the apprpriate amount of six paths senjutsu chakra to enter RSM, the same mode that Madara and Obito were said to have achieved. The yellow eyes naruto has when he saves guy could be indicative of only very little ridoku senjutsu leaking out, and once he had enough, he got the full package.

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    • If there are no more refutes, can the appropriate updates be made to the topic(s)?

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    • CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Madara claimed that being a juubi jinchuriki means you are in sage mode, meaning having the TSO and the coffinseal cloak. Now, this claim was refuted on the grounds of mistranslation, but I would like to have that confirmed.

      Seelentau backed this https://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Sage_Transformation

      CombatIQmatters wrote:

      Naruto's eyes when he kicks the TSO has the vertical slit (kurama chakra) and horizontal frog slit(frog sage mode). So he was under Sage mode influence and kurama influence, is all I can currently tell you for sure.

      Kurama mode+Sage mode eyes are red-orange with pigments around the eyes.

      The Naruto that kicked the TSB had yellow eyes and no pigments. Clearly indicating that this form Naruto is different from anything we have seen before

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    • @LegionZero thanks for the link. So it seems that madara didn't actually say sage mode. But, i read through that link and Seleentau also supported the notion that sage transformation is another way of achieving sage mode. So, really what is the difference exactly? If, I drive a car to work but you took the bus, and we got to the same end goal, then we got to the same place. Sage transformation allow