FANDOM


  • Seelentau
    Seelentau closed this thread because:
    donezo
    19:28, February 22, 2019

    Oro has canonly stated the he is non-binary or "other" in gender. When Mitsuki asks about whether he is male or female for a parent signature form, Oro replies that he has been male, female and something not of this world. But ultimately, that he will not say as is it inconsequential. Shouldn't this be something on Oro's infobox? Instead of "male" it should read "other" or "non-binary". I really think this is important for character development and to not neglect nb characters.

      Loading editor
    • I don't think it should effect his infobox, because ultimately, the show portrays him as a male character. Pretty much all infobooks and sources will describe him with male pronouns. Right?

      But I think it should definitely be mentioned.

        Loading editor
    • No, because he started out as a male. The reason why he isn't listed as a female or other or whatever, is for the same reason we don't state in Kakashi's infobox that he is a former user of Sharingan for an example.

        Loading editor
    • But Oro has stated that (and I'm using he only for simplicity sake) he does not conform to either gender. Because overtime, body swapping has landed male and female forms. Meaning that both are true. And we have seen this since the start. Oro has never been male, we have seen female forms and male forms in equal measure. Just because by birth Oro had a male form, doesn't mean that now he's stuck with that. In fact, his true form is a mass of snakes. And we can not look at pronouns because translations are iffy between Japanese and English.

      The fact that Oro doesn't stick to one and is fluid is the entire point of the character. Change, not being subject to human/social constructs. Swapping bodies and forms until it is no longer something as linear as male or female. The fact that Oro wouldn't tick a box shows that "male" is therefore incorrect. If Oro was male, why would it be an issue, and brought up repeatedly? The question has been asked many times. We have two answers from oro.

      One: it is inconsequential Two: there have been times I was a man, and times a woman, and others something not of this world.

      Even if he was born male, that doesn't mean that the character can't become non binary. It doesn't matter what was in his pants as a kid. Especially considering Oro is the face of change and body swapping.

        Loading editor
    • Orochimaru is a difficult case. It doesn't seem like Orochimaru is identifying itself as non-binary in the traditional sense. But rather to my understanding Orochimaru's nebulous gender is a result of the extreme self experimentation and body snatching that Orochimaru does.

      Relevant quote from our article,

      After countless experiments with his body, his true form became a giant white snake made up of many smaller snakes,

      i.e. Orochimaru's own identity isn't even human anymore and he periodically steals bodies of humans of various genders in order to prolong his life and extend his power.

      So rather than a traditional non-binary or "other" gender, I think a gender of "Various" would be most fitting. Since it's not static, not a single transition, not a "fluid" gender in the human sense, and the "he has been male, female, and ..." suggests he also does identify with traditional genders rather than identifying as not gendered.

        Loading editor
    • Yes I agree 100%, any term other than "male" or "female" would work. Various or other is both completely acceptable in my eyes. As it very much pushes the idea that there is no set thing at all. No forcing more human like terms, because as stated, that isn't the case anymore, nor was it ever for majority of the show.

      Non-binary by definition means: not relating to, composed of, or involving just two things.

      Which I also thought was very fitting.

        Loading editor
    • The problem with non-binary is that it is a real world term that is applied in the real world to normal human beings. Using the term to refer to Orochimaru – who originally identified as a cis-male and then made his gender nebulus because he essentially monsterified himself – risks being offensive by essentially comparing normal non-binary humans to essentially a monster.

      So other/non-binary/fluid/etc are best reserved for any human characters in the series that identify with them. Assuming the manga/anime authors/staff were or ever will be forward thinking enough to actually incorporate characters with those traits non-offensively.

        Loading editor
    • As someone non-binary, I never found it was insulting. Because it wasn't viewed as a monster thing, it was simply viewed as not partaking in gender norms. Oro is a highly intelligent character, to have Oro taking a step away from gender does not insult me in the slightest. In fact, I have seen it liberate a lot of people. It was so nice and refreshing, especially since it came out when Oro was no longer filling the role of villain anyhow.

      To have a NB character in such a big fandom is great to me, but I'd be placated with "other" or "various". Just having it accepted that the characters don't have to be either female or male. But I don't find it insulting in the slightest. The show didn't say Oro is a monster because gender was gone, it's just that Oro found gender to be something purely social. Which is so true. And having a scientist, intelligent character legitimate it is wonderful. Furthermore, Oro has used it as a basis to teach Mitsuki morals. It has only been shown in a very good light. And has been very positive.

      Of course, I speak for myself as a NB person. if others are offended, I'd be happy to at least see it be progressive enough to be labelled as "other".

        Loading editor
    • It's not our job to cater to fans feelings. We document what the manga provides us. So it doesn't really matter if someone is "offended" by what we put in the wiki. If anyone takes personal offense that Orochimaru is depicted as a snake abomination, then that's their decision and not our problem. Especially not in times like these, where getting offended has become more of a weapon to force something or someone to change.

      That said, everyone here has used the word "gender" wrong. This includes the wiki's infobox. What it should say is "sex". As you probably know, "gender" has nothing to do with the biological sex, but in the infobox, we refer to the latter: their assigned sex at birth. At least from what I'm aware of, since nobody in the series has ever stated their gender is different from their ASAB. So the change that should actually be made is change the word "gender" to "sex" in the infobox. And for Orochimaru, it should say "male".

      To preface this, it is not done to "silence a minority" or whatever. As Elveonora stated, we document the entire series, not just a specific change. That's why Kakashi isn't labeled "former Sharingan user" and Naruto isn't labeled both "former" and "currently" Jinchuriki. Information from the infobox that changed during the course of the series should be noted in the article itself (such as Kakashi losing his Sharingan). The same should be (and is, I think) done to Orochimaru and his sex changes. The word "gender" shouldn't be used at all in this context, since he simply swaps bodies. We don't know if his gender identity changes with the body.

        Loading editor
    • Even if we switch the infobox to use sex instead of gender, "Various" is still correct here. Or if not that then "Not applicable".

      If we are talking about biological sex in any form then Orochimaru still has taken on the various biological sexes. Orochimaru is not a male snake controlling the bodies he inhabits. Unless our articles need correcting, when Orochimaru switches bodies the snake form and previous body dies – not enters the new body, dies – and the new body becomes his own. Meaning that biologically Orochimaru is whatever sex his current body is at various parts of the series, which are of various sexes.

      And use of ASAB is very problematic both real world and on-wiki wise. Real world there are a not insignificant number of cases where this is incorrectly assigned. And on-wiki it is not even true that we put pre-change data in the infobox and note changes in the article. Characters like Jiraiya are marked as deceased when they are alive at the start of the series and their status later changes. And we list all affiliations a character has had over the story, not just the initial or current affiliation. Using "Various" to note that a character's own physical body has been one of various biological sexes over the course of the series is no different.

        Loading editor
    • "Various" is definitely more correct than male, I think the change is very accurate. And yes, very well said, even if it was sex, there would be no difference there. Orochimaru still changes biological sex whenever a body is swapped to, and even so, has stated that such biology is no longer a "thing". So whether it's been placed as "gender" or "sex" is not relevant.

      And while it is not a wikia's job to avoid trampling people's feelings, I see no reason to still be kind and tread around the obvious hotspots. There is no reason to not choose a more diplomatic phrase.

      Thanks so much for the edit, I'm really pleased to see it.

        Loading editor
    • Dantman wrote: And on-wiki it is not even true that we put pre-change data in the infobox and note changes in the article. Characters like Jiraiya are marked as deceased when they are alive at the start of the series and their status later changes. And we list all affiliations a character has had over the story, not just the initial or current affiliation. Using "Various" to note that a character's own physical body has been one of various biological sexes over the course of the series is no different.

      Then why not change Kakashi's Sharingan status to "Former"? And consequentially, Naruto should be both "current" and "former" Jinchuriki. Same for all other Jinchuriki, I think.

        Loading editor
    • Serendipity18 wrote: Oro has canonly stated the he is non-binary or "other" in gender. When Mitsuki asks about whether he is male or female for a parent signature form, Oro replies that he has been male, female and something not of this world. But ultimately, that he will not say as is it inconsequential. Shouldn't this be something on Oro's infobox? Instead of "male" it should read "other" or "non-binary". I really think this is important for character development and to not neglect nb characters.

      The fact refers to himself as having been male and female would actually negate him being non-binary. He obviously saw himself as one and then the other before becoming the living plant thing he is now. The various change seems accurate enough.

        Loading editor
    • I don't mean to offend anyone and I want to emphasize that I respect everyone's opinion and lifestyle, but the concept of gender being a different and separate thing from biological sex is a relatively modern social invention without any scientific basis and with no evidence to back it up. The word gender and sex (biological) are used interchangeably in scientific fields and the idea that someone is not defined by their biology and can identify and feel as something else is a concept created by feminists.

      Again, I don't want to offend anyone, but it is clearly a flawed one at that. A man can be feminine, but that doesn't make him a non-man, woman or other. A woman can be masculine, but that doesn't make her a non-woman, man or other.

      The reason why this feminist theory doesn't work and even contradicts itself is simple... the idea is that the mental and emotional states are more important to our identity than our biology, so someone with a penis and testicles shouldn't automatically be labeled and thought of as a man/male/insert masculine pronoun, because this individual may be feminine, in between or not-set, feel and identify as a female/other. Likewise, someone with a vagina, ovaries, uterus and breasts shouldn't automatically be labeled as a woman/female, insert feminine pronoun, because this individual may be masculine, in between or not-set, feel and identify as a male/other.

      While that's nice and all, the very thing that they advocate for (that being someone with male body being feminine or neutral or not-set/someone with female body being masculine or neutral or not-set) is self-contradictory, because by inventing other genders/terms to label these people besides male and female, they actually support the very things they are against, those being social norms with expectations and labels being attributed to someone having certain bodily characteristics.

      So if someone as an example is XY but identifies as a female/other, this individual 'itself' makes a correlation between biology, behavior, social norms and expectations, by the very act of distancing from the established 2 (male, female) and inventing new ones.... but I thought the entire point was to remove the correlations between mental and emotional states/identity and social norms and expectations????? Apparently not.... Because short version: XY identifying as female, XX identifying as male, someone identifying as other does NOT remove these people from 2 bags that the society put them into..... it just creates new, additional bags for these people to be put into, therefore not really solving the problem, that's the lesson for today :)

      The other side of the thing, the point that I and Seelentau have brought up... is our practice of covering information pertaining to the entirety of the series from the beginning to the most recent, inside the infoboxes. Since we no longer do 'formers' for quite some years now (used to be a thing) and individuals with now lost powers are still being listed as current users of those. However, as Dantman has pointed out, once a character dies, we change their status to deceased, even though that character used to be alive at a point in the series... meaning a reforming and unification of our practices is probably long overdue by now... something should be decided and done.

        Loading editor
    • Define "canonly" …?

        Loading editor
    • I know your intentions were not to offend, but your comment is quite ignorant on the subject, and has made some pretty harmful statements. Firstly, gender equality is related to feminism. We are talking about gender expression and identity. Feminism can actually disrespect gender identity, as they will often times regard a trans man as “one of them”, entirely negating the fact that he has said he is a man. While they reject trans woman. (Not the good feminists, but a decent portion).

      There are cases of feminists agreeing with trans (lgbtq+) rights, but that doesn’t make them the same thing. Feminists also team up with groups fighting for racial equality. Again, this is just two groups who are discriminated against teaming up. It doesn’t make their plight the same.

      Second of all, why are you bringing up science? Let people live their lives. There is no science to support it, but there is no science to disprove it. In fact, studies have shown that the mind of a trans baby does in fact reflect opposite genders etc. So while we can’t say chromosomes can magically change in favour of trans, it doesn’t matter.

      But here’s the REAL important thing. This is a work of fiction. Where foxes have nine tails and people spit fire. I think topics of “science” are very irrelevant. You’re saying people can’t change sex in real life so Oro should stay put. Well Oro isn’t in reality. Oro has changed literal sex multiple times. Oro has changed in to a snake, and a hydra. Oro isn’t in our reality. So why is science or feminism even being brought to the table?

      Are we going to say Tsunade and Sakura shouldn’t be physically stronger than B or A? Because scientifically muscle mass doesn’t work like that and female bodies can’t hold as much as two fully grown very muscular males? No. Because this is a work of fiction. We aren’t using real life regulations. It would be bizarre to try work things out as if these people are real people. If Tsunade can heal a stab wound by magic, she can punch a wall. That's the lore of the Naruto verse.

      Another thing is this whole debate on why Kakashi isn’t being portrayed as a former sharingan user but as his current form. Why is this an issue? We made Oro represent what he is now, and that is “various”, or non-gendered. If we put him as “male” we would be taking first season Oro only. Which is like saying Kakashi has the sharingan even though he doesn’t anymore, or Jiraiya is alive. We are taking the latest info of Oro and updating it. Ins't this more in line with what you wanted?

      Various is very suitable. And it’s really not about whether you believe in trans or feminism. It was, as a non binary person, a bit hard to read your misconceptions on the idea. But I hope you understand now that gender identity is shifting away from a mere PC term, and in to something more recognized. We do have examples of Non binary and trans creatures in nature, if you're ever interested in researching the topic for evidence. Cows, birds, fish, there are a lot of examples of very interesting cases. That very much show case gender is more fluid than we have it credit for.

      But in this case, we are not pretending to be scientists. We are giving facts on a fantasy world. A world where someone has and did change gender and sex. So having it there is important. I do feel real life mentions of lgbtq+ issues should be kept outside this topic. As this is purely a work of fiction where anything is possible, and no one is asking for a political debate on your belief on real life people who transition and do not conform to binary views.

      I'm still very much in support of the idea of "various" being used, as it won't step on anyones toes, and it is very accurate and factual on what Oro has displayed.

        Loading editor
    • Elveonora
      Elveonora removed this reply because:
      editing
      10:57, February 17, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • I apologize for misunderstanding your statement on that point, you said "the idea that someone is not defined by their biology and can identify and feel as something else is a concept created by feminists."

      Which isn't the case, if you're referring to gender identity in this statement. And does come off as you stating the two are the same. Either way, I don't think real life politics or "science" can be brought in to a discussion surrounding fantasy characters. So it should have been excluded to begin with in my opinion.

      Reality and fantasy are simply not working in the same boundaries.

        Loading editor
    • Serendipity18 wrote: 'feminism'

      I just said it has origins within feminism. Just like all things, feminism has changed over the years.

      Serendipity18 wrote: Second of all, why are you bringing up science? Let people live their lives. There is no science to support it, but there is no science to disprove it. In fact, studies have shown that the mind of a trans baby does in fact reflect opposite genders etc. So while we can’t say chromosomes can magically change in favour of trans, it doesn’t matter.

      Trans baby? Seriously? You know a brain of a baby reflects whatever is around it as it's in the most major stages of development and learns by imitation? Not to mention there comes puberty later which finalizes the brain development, so there is no such thing as a trans baby, it's just a phase until the child is fully developed.

      Serendipity18 wrote: But here’s the REAL important thing. This is a work of fiction. Where foxes have nine tails and people spit fire. I think topics of “science” are very irrelevant. You’re saying people can’t change sex in real life so Oro should stay put. Well Oro isn’t in reality. Oro has changed literal sex multiple times. Oro has changed in to a snake, and a hydra. Oro isn’t in our reality. So why is science or feminism even being brought to the table?

      As far as we know, Orochimaru's monstrous snake body is still biologically male. This is sort of supported when Orochimaru is recreated by Jugo taking a piece of Kabuto's flesh and then Orochimaru coming back in his original body, even with original height he had before he started to switch bodies.

      Serendipity18 wrote: Are we going to say Tsunade and Sakura shouldn’t be physically stronger than B or A? Because scientifically muscle mass doesn’t work like that and female bodies can’t hold as much as two fully grown very muscular males? No. Because this is a work of fiction. We aren’t using real life regulations. It would be bizarre to try work things out as if these people are real people. If Tsunade can heal a stab wound by magic, she can punch a wall. That's the lore of the Naruto verse.

      Tsunade and Sakura's physical strength are for the most part not based on muscle mass but chakra control, but go on.

      Serendipity18 wrote: Another thing is this whole debate on why Kakashi isn’t being portrayed as a former sharingan user but as his current form. Why is this an issue? We made Oro represent what he is now, and that is “various”, or non-gendered. If we put him as “male” we would be taking first season Oro only. Which is like saying Kakashi has the sharingan even though he doesn’t anymore, or Jiraiya is alive. We are taking the latest info of Oro and updating it. Ins't this more in line with what you wanted?

      I want consistency, that's all.

      Serendipity18 wrote: Various is very suitable. And it’s really not about whether you believe in trans or feminism. It was, as a non binary person, a bit hard to read your misconceptions on the idea. But I hope you understand now that gender identity is shifting away from a mere PC term, and in to something more recognized. We do have examples of Non binary and trans creatures in nature, if you're ever interested in researching the topic for evidence. Cows, birds, fish, there are a lot of examples of very interesting cases. That very much show case gender is more fluid than we have it credit for.

      Are you seriously using behavior and mentality of wild beasts as something the human race should strive for? 2 female hyenas can penetrate each other or a female hyena penetrate male hyena (thanks to their enlarged clitoris) or 2 male hyenas penetrate each other... does that mean they are trans or non-binary or whatever? No, it doesn't, sorry. Gender (non-biological) is a human invention and concept, so you can't retroactively use it to claim that it has existed within nature, because of social roles in animal families and homosexual activity, because we are clearly more intelligent than them, or aren't we? Monkeys pee into each others' mouths and throws feces at each other.... let's make that a thing now, oh wait....

      Serendipity18 wrote: But in this case, we are not pretending to be scientists. We are giving facts on a fantasy world. A world where someone has and did change gender and sex. So having it there is important. I do feel real life mentions of lgbtq+ issues should be kept outside this topic. As this is purely a work of fiction where anything is possible, and no one is asking for a political debate on your belief on real life people who transition and do not conform to binary views.

      I'm still very much in support of the idea of "various" being used, as it won't step on anyones toes, and it is very accurate and factual on what Oro has displayed.

      You were the ones who brought it up as a political debate.

        Loading editor
    • I'm not really getting in to this with you, I have asked multiple times to keep on topic. This has nothing to do with real life statistics , not that the points you have made unfortunately connect with the topic at hand (hyena are not one of the animals I listed that represent this occurring in nature). And by looking at animals, I mean to say that if it occurs in creatures that aren't making social constructs, you can't say gender is purely a human design. That negates your claim that it's not a thing. Moreover, humans are animals, and it's good when discussing scientific affairs, to remember that. But again, this conversation could go on forever, and I wasn't interested in having a gender debate with you. Not for feminism, and not for respecting people within the lgbtq+. If you're not open minded to it, then that's your personal opinion. You're entitled to it.

      And "chakra" is the reason Tsunade is stronger yes, but that's a concept made up in fantasy. No one in real life can magically use chakra to be stronger than a man three times their size. Much like how Orochimaru used magic to swap bodies and change sex at various stages. That was the point of my statement.

      The point of the character was to show change and difference. Even looking at Orochimaru's speech. Rebirth, reincarnation... all to do with massive change.

      Whether Oro was male 70% and female 30% doesn't matter. The point is it is constantly changing. So to have it as various makes sense. Because otherwise, we should, to be fair, be labeling it as whatever is in their pants. Which for all we know, could be changed monthly. Either way, confronted with the question, Oro answered neither. So let's do the right thing, and mark gender as neither. It's logical.

      This is consistency, you were unhappy that it wasn't, but what we have done is made it more consistent.

      I'm not sure what is bothering you about it. Various incorporates all forms, you can keep believing Oro is male if you don't support non-binary/non gender conforming aspects of the show. But to be true, and to show a full representation of the character, we can not ignore the fact that Oro has stated multiple times that gender is both inconsequential, and that both man/woman/other are correct at various stages.

      I think Dantman handled it very well, I would have used a term that may have been unwelcome (non-binary), but they found a far more accurate and appeasing term. So I'm content with the change as it is. It's not neglecting very critical information, and it hasn't messed up the infobox system at all.

        Loading editor
    • Can you guys not make this into a political discussion? That's not something which belongs here.

      Aside of that, the changes Dantman made have done nothing for the consistency of the infobox. We now take Orochimaru's entire changes into consideration, but not Kakashi's or Naruto's "ability changes", so to speak. Either we should present a character as they were when they were as introduced (ignoring the plot), or how they're now, or how they were across the entire series, including past events prior to the start of the series.

      I've also edited the infobox to say "sex" instead of "gender", to more accurately reflect what it's talking about. And before anyone asks: No, we're not going to add an additional "gender" section. Unlike in BNHA, there's no character who identifies as something other than their ASAB in Naruto

        Loading editor
    • There was never any consistency in the first place, you can only see consistency if you cherry pick fields. Age/height/weight all record information that change over time by segmenting that information into parts of the series. Occupation seems to record the latest occupation since Naruto's infobox lists him as "Hokage" which he did not have at the start of the series. And team and affiliation both record just list everything from the entire series as a list, bundling together affiliations whether they are active the whole series, they end naturally at some point, or the character later becomes an enemy to that affiliation. The only reason gender never had a various or ability to specify multiple sexes/genders is because Orochimaru is just about the only character in the series that info is not static for.

      I couldn't think of a good way to depict a character's deceased status in a way that reflected the whole series before. But I think one just came to mind now.

      Instead of thinking about a character's deceased state as as "status" that changes, perhaps we should think about it as an event. Instead of recording whether a character is alive or deceased; we should record when they die (and pretty much every character alive at the end of the series will inevitably still die sometime after it). A character that is "Alive" is really a character that dies post-series. A character that starts "Deceased" is a character that died pre-series. And a character whose status "changes" is a character who has a chronological "death" event during the timeline of the series for which we can record "when" they die with episode/chapter numbers. For spoiler sake we can simplify this to "Pre-series", "Post-series", and "During-series" and hide the exact chapter/episode behind a spoiler flag. Or perhaps "Died: Before start of timeline", "Died: After start of timeline", "Died: Part I"/"Died: Part II"/...

      There are probably similar better ways to represent information for other statuses. For Jinchuriki instead of recording it as a status of whether or not a person is a Jinchuriki, but if they are a Jinchuriki recording it as when they started being one and when they stopped being one.

        Loading editor
    • Seelentau wrote: I've also edited the infobox to say "sex" instead of "gender", to more accurately reflect what it's talking about. And before anyone asks: No, we're not going to add an additional "gender" section. Unlike in BNHA, there's no character who identifies as something other than their ASAB in Naruto

      Despite your edit and my own null edits, the infoboxes continue to show 'Gender'. These infoboxes are unlike the ones used on so many other wikias, so I'm unsure, but wouldn't we need a bot to edit the source of each infobox to say 'Sex' rather than 'Gender'? That's typically necessary elsewhere when a value title is edited.

      Edit: I saw your edit, Dantman. Thanks.

        Loading editor
    • Munchvtec wrote:

      Despite your edit and my own null edits, the infoboxes continue to show 'Gender'. These infoboxes are unlike the ones used on so many other wikias, so I'm unsure, but wouldn't we need a bot to edit the source of each infobox to say 'Sex' rather than 'Gender'? That's typically necessary elsewhere when a value title is edited.

      Seelentau only edited the form's label. To change the label on the pages the template needs to be edited. I've changed the label. But sadly we can't edit the parameter name unless we make a bot to edit a huge pile of pages. There's also the SMW property. Which we probably could change without a bot, but I'm hesitant to because SMW has a history of being slow to update and breaking here.

        Loading editor
    • Dantman wrote:

      Things

      Sounds like an infobox overhaul might be due? I agree with all you have said, there are definitely better and more consistent ways to depict the information. Especially considering the main series is over and won't be changed any longer.

        Loading editor
    • Especially considering the main series is over and won't be changed any longer.

      Sure, the main series. ;) There's no guarantee the Boruto series won't run long enough for Naruto to die. And then we'll be in a predicament under the current infobox system. The only difference between Naruto and Jiraiya at that point would be that one died during the Naruto series and the other died during the Boruto series. Which means we would either have to label Naruto as "Deceased" just like Jiraiya or decide that Boruto events don't count, even though we list information for Boruto that happens during his series in his infobox. 🤣

      Seelentau wrote:

      Dantman wrote:

      Things

      Sounds like an infobox overhaul might be due? I agree with all you have said, there are definitely better and more consistent ways to depict the information.

      At some level we'll have to accept that an infobox just summarizes information and with the goal of documenting the whole series – rather than a snapshot at a specific point in time – that information won't be able to completely reflect the details of how that information changes over the series. But we can certainly make some improvements.

      I think we can probably improve how we handle some of the statuses that generally end up changing as you note, like Jinchuriki status.

      Kakashi's Sharingan may be difficult, how many characters actually have a status change like that? If it's not worth the effort to make something complex perhaps just an annotation (like the "Anime only" annotations we have) to denote how the status may change during the series would work.

      The line we probably draw will be at affiliations. It's probably too difficult to denote how and when affiliations (and team memberships) start and end in the infobox. And may be better off just left as a list with all the affiliations through the series and the full details in the article.

        Loading editor
    • "Anbu Captain (Former)" If we can put former for ranks, we can do it for KKG too. So why not go and add (Former) for Kakashi and others who need that?? the inconsistency here is astounding.

        Loading editor
    • Back to the Orochimaru gender thing, do not the databooks and other books list his gender? If they do, we are in no right to change it.

        Loading editor
    • Dantman
      Dantman removed this reply because:
      Not constructive to the discussion * Incorrect dictionary prescriptivism * Repeating misinformation about infobox consistency and intent * Miss-attributing encyclopedic correctness to "special privilege"
      23:01, February 17, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Elveonora wrote: Back to the Orochimaru gender thing, do not the databooks and other books list his gender? If they do, we are in no right to change it.

      They don't as in Gender: male. But when talking about Orochimaru, they use the pronouns he and him. Example from pg 72 in 4th Databook: "Orochimaru was doing cellular research on various clans. A portion of it was being preserved in his hideout."

      But someone already changed the page, so it's already done.

        Loading editor
    • Serendipity18 wrote: "Various" is definitely more correct than male, I think the change is very accurate. And yes, very well said, even if it was sex, there would be no difference there. Orochimaru still changes biological sex whenever a body is swapped to, and even so, has stated that such biology is no longer a "thing". So whether it's been placed as "gender" or "sex" is not relevant.

      And while it is not a wikia's job to avoid trampling people's feelings, I see no reason to still be kind and tread around the obvious hotspots. There is no reason to not choose a more diplomatic phrase.

      Thanks so much for the edit, I'm really pleased to see it.

      thats not actually true. on the contrary when he swaps bodies the only thing left over is a small outer shell of skin. the rest of the actual body is absorbed and incorporated into him via his own SPACE TIME. we see that all of the souls of the hosts along with their genetic make up is houses in that particular SPACE TIME instead of discarding his former self he is simply adding to his genetic make up when ever he takes a new host. moreover when sasuke revived him. he was revived with a brand new original body that was made up of all the genetic structures he had taken up to that point. since he was revived via some type of revival jutsu it can be assumed that when he came out of Anko he was in his original albeit modified body.. than when he took a zetsu he took a body that isn't even human.

      we also have no idea if he has even taken a new host with all the cloning he has done he may have simply extended his own life span

      Elveonora i agree with everything you said.

        Loading editor
    • "they use the pronouns he and him"

      To me, it's as simple as that. And I'd argue the same for any other character. Including Katsuyu, Gyuki, Kurama, and Black Zetsu.

        Loading editor
    • They don't as in Gender: male. But when talking about Orochimaru, they use the pronouns he and him. Example from pg 72 in 4th Databook: "Orochimaru was doing cellular research on various clans. A portion of it was being preserved in his hideout."

      Databook translations cannot be used as references for pronouns. Gendered language in Japanese is different than in English, many Japanese pronouns that are gendered-only in English are gender-neutral in Japanese. So regularly in translations gender neutral text gets substituted with gendered pronouns when translated to English. Which gender the pronouns should use are an assumption made by the translator, not a fact that can be cited.

      The original Japanese text needs to be referenced to check for gendered language.

      Databook text is also not a very good citation because any spot they are stuck using gendered language would gravitate towards A) a "current" gender rather than one that applies to the whole series, and B) a "gender" since this is prose not a stat/factoid, when we've updated the infobox to reflex sex not gender. What I believe Elveonora was hoping for was an explicit sex/gender stat like the height/weight stats that the databooks have for characters.

        Loading editor
    • FlatZone wrote: "Anbu Captain (Former)" If we can put former for ranks, we can do it for KKG too. So why not go and add (Former) for Kakashi and others who need that?? the inconsistency here is astounding.

      The current infobox does not support those kinds of annotations used in the occupation field for the kekkei genkai field. The infobox is pretty complex and handles data in some fields very differently than data in other fields. Especially when it comes to fields that do not become SMW annotations (occupation) and fields that do become SMW annotations (kekkei genkai). So there was some uncertainty whether it would be possible to add these type of annotations. And we're also contemplating whether it's worth handling that in a more detailed way where we also note when it was lost. Like we possibly might for Jinchuriki.

      I'm still unsure whether this is possible. The Kekkei Genkai field already has annotation handling for things like anime/game only Kekkei Genkai. It's difficult to tell if it can support "Former" annotations in addition to the current annotations.

        Loading editor
    • Fair enough. [1] [2]. The first image is from the 4th databook. The red circle at the bottom of the first picture is the statement that utilizes "his". The second picture is a zoomed in version of that statement if you need a closer look. It clearly says "様々な族の細胞研究をして いた大蛇丸。彼のアジトには その一部が保存されている。" 彼の means his and 彼 means he if I'm not mistaken. So the 4th Databook calls Orochimaru he and him since you can find those multiple times on that page. As for everything else, alright.

        Loading editor
    • Do you have any info on those four characters I brought up before?

        Loading editor
    • 彼の means his and 彼 means he if I'm not mistaken.

      I thought so too. But apparently in formal speech it's technically gender neutral ([1], [2]). And of course in informal speech you risk the ambiguity of possibly actually saying "boyfriend".

        Loading editor
    • D1, 2, 3 and other supplementary books should be checked too, along with manga. Technically, Orochimaru is inside of a female body at the beginning of the series. But no one ever labeled him a female or other, so why this all of a sudden?

        Loading editor
    • Just saying, manga weighs more than databooks from what I know. And you guys still need to make a distinction between sex and gender. Orochimaru is the only person who has ever hinted as somewhat having a gender identity different from what he was born as. His ASAB is male, but his gender identity is ambiguous. So for him, and for him only, we have three options: His ASAB (male), his body swapped sex (currently female) or what he himself says (ambiguous).

      And then there's the fact that he's apparently actually a snake. And we don't know the sex of that snake. We only know the sex of its host body, which is apparently female at the moment. Or is it? Who are we to judge? Actually, doesn't the same go for all other characters? Wouldn't it be better to remove the sex from the infobox altogether? Lest we offend anyone?

      This topic is a slippery slope, as you can see.

        Loading editor
    • Why don't you guys just do what you guys do with everything else, and put everything he was and is on there. He was male and female and now is currently an it (wasn't his last host body Zetsu not a woman?). I mean you guys leave Kekkei Genkai as they are. Leave techniques as they are. You leave affiliations as they are. Age. Then you add to those things as the series is updated. So why not just do the same thing?

        Loading editor
    • Ok, Orochimaru was originally male. Through the Living corpse reincarnation technique, he can take transfer his soul and chakra apparently to a new host. His true snake form appears to "die" each time he does this. Since souls are excluded from sex and gender, no further discussion can be had on that point.

      While his snake form is certainly monstrous, what states that it isn't male? Sure, body modifications could alter appearance and function, but in terms of biology what makes him not male?

      Secondly, for all what is said about gender, gender itself is an identity first. Orochimaru is not concerned about gender at all.

      Finally, I see this can be offensive for some people but it needs to be said. Orochimaru has remained the same in his identity from the get-go. Despite body modifications and soul transfers, he hasn't changed at all. So, the original intention of this thread is not necessary.

      @Tau

      Why would anyone be offended by a sex infobox? If they are, it's their problem.

        Loading editor
    • Even the snake body is questionable. While he used body transfer on Sasuke, his snake body died. But after having been revived, he had for whatever reason gained a different looking snake body and slithered into a white zetsu's mouth, instead of swallowing the host body as in Sasuke's case.

        Loading editor
    • He started using the same Snake Body type as Kabuto. Sex still unknown, although knowing this the databook still called him male.

        Loading editor
    • Biologically, nothing states that Orochimaru has been changed to female or a combination of male or female.

      Transferring his soul and chakra to another host also doesn't affect his own dna as far as we know, so how can his sex be "various" when he is only using the hosts' bodies as a proxy?

        Loading editor
    • "Biologically, nothing states that Orochimaru has been changed to female or a combination of male or female."

      Exactly. And the same can be said about pretty much every questionable character. We don't know what their DNA is, or which ones even have DNA, or what their private anatomy looks like.

      We just know that some of them are presented as male, and some of them are presented as female.

        Loading editor
    • This is pointless, there is only going to be a small assortment of people who even acknowledge the presence of the 'Gender' or 'Sex' column in the information box and I can argue that being I didn't even know this existed. I believe this thread has passed a through a bit of personal feeling on this topic which is not the point of the Wikia, if it were an impactful plot point I am sure they would specify his gender but at this point it means nothing.

        Loading editor
    • Thing is, they did bring up his sex. For example, the whole fuss about him being Mitsuki's parent, not his dad or mom. Plus, Orochimaru's whole shtick is being a body-swapping, and thereby sex-changing crazy scientist.

      The problem is, we don't know what exactly happens when he takes over a new body. Does the new body's sex stay the same? Or does Orochimaru's takeover change it? Because his original sex was male. Since we can't be entirely sure of what happens, and considering that he has had host bodies from both sexes, various is probably the most accurate way to present it.

        Loading editor
    • Since when do we accept assumptions as fact? You say yourself, that we don't know exactly if Orochimaru's sex changed, so why not leave it there?

        Loading editor
    • Orochimaru is male... when he came out from Sasuke's Curse Mark, it was his own male body. When he got revived, again in his own original male body, meaning said form is tied to his chakra, regardless of transferring into a female host body.

        Loading editor
    • Elveonora wrote: Orochimaru is male... when he came out from Sasuke's Curse Mark, it was his own male body. When he got revived, again in his own original male body, meaning said form is tied to his chakra, regardless of transferring into a female host body.

      Good point.

      Seelentau wrote: Thing is, they did bring up his sex. For example, the whole fuss about him being Mitsuki's parent, not his dad or mom. Plus, Orochimaru's whole shtick is being a body-swapping, and thereby sex-changing crazy scientist.

      The problem is, we don't know what exactly happens when he takes over a new body. Does the new body's sex stay the same? Or does Orochimaru's takeover change it? Because his original sex was male. Since we can't be entirely sure of what happens, and considering that he has had host bodies from both sexes, various is probably the most accurate way to present it.

      This actually isn't true. We know he inhabits the body of the new host and uses jutsu to make it appear like his old body. Shown and stated clearly when he fought the 3rd hokage, and when he took over the prisoners body instead of sasuke's. However, each time he is reconstituted from chakra alone (curse mark both times) he is back to his original male body.


      And this entire debate is now about hurting someones feelings or not and not about facts. Needs dropped honestly before it gets out of hand.

        Loading editor
    • What's next... Haku was a tranny and had a thing for Zabuza? We should definitely consider putting that as trivia entry in the very least, 'cause there's plenty of undeniable evidence!!! (a.k.a. personal feelings and politics) And us not doing so is discrimination!!! Just joking :-/

      Anyway, I understand you Dantman, that this is the internet and people come here from all sorts of different ethnic groups, cultures, genders, sexual orientations, religions etc. and they should feel welcome here... but we shouldn't forget that we should strive to be a facts first, feelings second website.

      Also the OP made it clear that it's personal for it or whatever, so this topic doesn't really seem to come from a concern for facts, but a desire to satisfy one's own feelings by persuading us that Orochimaru also is an it just like the OP itself.

        Loading editor
    • I debate whatever I want to. Nobody forces anyone of you to participate. But interesting how you're the second user who's joined the wiki some days ago and has exclusively posted in this topic. I really hope nobody here uses sockpuppets to faciliate support for their POV.

      And thanks for the correction, but it still ignores the whole "Mitsuki's parent" thing (among other stuff that I probably don't know about because I don't watch the Boruto anime).

      "Various" is the best option simply because it takes into account all sexes he has had. He was a woman during Konoha's attack and took over a man afterwards. So either "various" or "both", but since he also took over a sexless WZ, he was all three, hence "various" being the more optimal choice.

      Oh by the way, this isn't a debate on "if" we should do it. I'm simply trying to explain why we did it.

        Loading editor
    • Seelentau wrote:

      "Various" is the best option simply because it takes into account all sexes he has had. He was a woman during Konoha's attack and took over a man afterwards. So either "various" or "both", but since he also took over a sexless WZ, he was all three, hence "various" being the more optimal choice.

      Orochimaru inhabiting a foreign body with his soul and chakra doesn't change his biological sex. If it did, it would be stated so. Orochimaru's statement to Mitsuki can have a different meaning, as Mitsuki is a synthetic human. Again, assumptions are not facts.

        Loading editor
    • Technically, Orochimaru isn't even Mitsuki's biological parent, since Mitsuki is an engineered and modified clone of his. But if Mitsuki is Orochimaru's clone and Mitsuki is male, doesn't common sense dictate that Orochimaru is male as well? As if there were any doubt...

        Loading editor
    • Ninja Of War wrote:

      Orochimaru inhabiting a foreign body with his soul and chakra doesn't change his biological sex. If it did, it would be stated so. Orochimaru's statement to Mitsuki can have a different meaning, as Mitsuki is a synthetic human. Again, assumptions are not facts.

      Orochimaru entering a different body means Orochimaru has the sex of that body. It's not an assumption. He basically controls someone else's body from the inside. The entity that is Orochimaru has whatever sex its current host body has.

        Loading editor
    • When Edo Tensei is used it changes the body to the sex of the revived person. Orochimaru's transfer works on the same concept, transfering soul and chakra to a new body. There is a precedent of the biology changing along with soul transfer.

        Loading editor
    • But that's not true. Edo Tensei builds a new body from dirt around the sacrifice. Orochimaru enters the host and puts a layer that looks like Orochimaru over the new body. Neither changes the sex of the host body, which is what we're going by. If Orochimaru took over a female host but continued to identify as a male, it wouldn't change anything for us, basically.

      So since Orochimaru has has inhabited males and females, and is now whatever WZ is (if he's still in that body, I don't know). So "various" it is.

        Loading editor
    • Elveonora wrote: Technically, Orochimaru isn't even Mitsuki's biological parent, since Mitsuki is an engineered and modified clone of his. But if Mitsuki is Orochimaru's clone and Mitsuki is male, doesn't common sense dictate that Orochimaru is male as well? As if there were any doubt...

      exactly, cloning is simply a form of twins. in biology twins are a form of clone's so to be biologically accurate, Mitsuki and Log are not Orochimaru's children but his genetic TWINS. so technically his biological brothers. and that is if they are the traditional clones. for all we know they could just be your average test tube baby. and orochimaru simply uses the term clone because they are not born the traditional way

      Seelentau

      i disagree, it implies that the host body is just used a sacrifice, and that when he uses his jutsu the host soul and body are housed in orochimaru's space time. so in essence orochimaru eats the person and his body takes over the cells of the new body. and when he shows the host body he is just switching places with the host body.

        Loading editor
    • I mean you can disagree, but the manga showed that Orochimaru literally controls the body. He ripped his fake face off and the woman's face was shown during the Konoha Crush. That alone is enough proof that the body actually stays the same and Orochimaru is basically just a snake parasite. I mean, he did it with his next host as well. Which basically means that him looking feminine right now his simply his own decision. We don't know what sex the underlying host body has, if it's someone else than WZ.

        Loading editor
    • It's pretty strange to suggest that Orochimaru's chakra+soul has a biological gender transferred to the new host when the previous biological body dies and there is no "biology" in chakra+soul.

      Unless our Living Corpse Reincarnation article needs a complete rewrite, it also explicitly states that Orochimaru modifies the body after taking it over.

        Loading editor
    • There is really no need for this argument to continue considering they updated it to 'Various' which does seem appropriate being his gender is ever changing.

        Loading editor
    • He is male and always has been. Why is this even an issue? Even after changing bodies, he has always modified it back to how he originally was to begin with. Like a previous user said, when he was revived/restored from Sasuke's Curse Mark, he was male, and then literally slithered into a White Zetsu body and still male.

        Loading editor
    • Dantman wrote:

      Unless our Living Corpse Reincarnation article needs a complete rewrite, it also explicitly states that Orochimaru modifies the body after taking it over.

      Yes, but to which extent? Does he change the DNA into a male's? If so, why doesn't he change the host's face to his own, instead of putting on a mask?

      I mean, of course we can't expect the manga to tell us which genitals Orochimaru currently has. So we can only go by other statements, such as the whole Mitsuki situation, Orochimaru's looks etc.

      But yeah, anyway, it's "various" now for reasons provided in this thread.

        Loading editor
    • Who says DNA can't come with chakra and soul? Actually:

      • Sasuke absorbed Orochimaru's chakra and soul and when Oro broke free out of Sasuke's Curse Mark, he appeared as a physical entity.... unless you want to believe that the Orochimaru that broke free from Sasuke was a chakra being akin to the Tailed Beasts and has no DNA
      • More so, IF Living Corpse is just a chakra/soul transfer, where does the snake body come from each time he is about to switch hosts? Does it just appear out of nowhere magically? We even state in the articles that Orochimaru genetically modified his body to be that form, but then you suggest that there is no physical body to speak of?
        Loading editor
    • Elveonora wrote: Who says DNA can't come with chakra and soul? Actually:

      • Sasuke absorbed Orochimaru's chakra and soul and when Oro broke free out of Sasuke's Curse Mark, he appeared as a physical entity.... unless you want to believe that the Orochimaru that broke free from Sasuke was a chakra being akin to the Tailed Beasts and has no DNA
      • More so, IF Living Corpse is just a chakra/soul transfer, where does the snake body come from each time he is about to switch hosts? Does it just appear out of nowhere magically? We even state in the articles that Orochimaru genetically modified his body to be that form, but then you suggest that there is no physical body to speak of?

      Have to agree with both of these. Great points, although i highly doubt it even matters at this point. The fact he has shown to inhabit the body of his host (those physically he is their gender) doesn't matter, nor the fact when he is reconstituted from chakra he is male (both times). Think your wasting your breath lol

        Loading editor
    • Late jumping in here, but I think this thread really highlights how little we actually know about Orochimaru's body hopping process, thanks in part to the fact that Living Corpse Reincarnation had its entry in the second databook, when its true nature was still being kept a mystery. Though in reality this thread is probably putting more thought into the specifics than the author ever did, especially since it worked completely different the second time we saw it.

      One thing I'll point out about the "true form" debate is we don't actually know where the snake body comes from. The Living Corpse Reincarnation article currently claims Orochimaru has to discard his current host body to resume his true form, but for all we know, what we saw in chapter 344 was just a standard use of this technique and he was still possessing Gen'yūmaru until he transferred into Sasuke. After all, it's not like Kabuto had to discard his own body to enter his snake form, he just used the shedding technique. This would also mean it was technically Gen'yūmaru's flesh that was grafted onto Kabuto and later used to revive Orochimaru. We know Orochimaru's chakra can have an actual physical effect on a person's body, since his eye markings appeared on Sasuke when his chakra started rising to the surface (though strangely they were absent on his female body in Part 1).

      My point is, there's a lot we don't know about this stuff and we probably shouldn't presume anything, no matter how small. After all, other commonly held fan beliefs about Orochimaru have proven wrong over the years, like his soul-arms being fixed when he swapped bodies, or Sasuke's snake summoning tattoo/contract only existing while Orochimaru was inside of him.

        Loading editor
    • Also super late and purposely avoiding the hell out of this topic.

      But here I am.

      Without getting into everything, I feel "Various" is appropriate for infobox if we really want to avoid this mess going forward. I believe everyone in the series still calls refer to him as a "he" regardless of how little he personally seems to care about it.

        Loading editor
    • I'm also going to put "Various" in for Naruto and the Konohamaru trio. Using Sexy no Jutsu did change their actual body into that of a female, right? So they basically did something similar to Orochimaru, if only more temporary.

      (:

        Loading editor
    • I think there's a perfectly reasonable line to draw between a jutsu that permanently integrates the user with the physical body of another biological being and can only be used on biological bodies; and a transformation justu that is automatically undone unless the user continually exerts chakra to continue the transformation and can be used to transform into inanimate non-biological objects.

      ;) Unless of course you feel like coming up with a list of all the instances a ninja has transformed into an animal, plant, or inanimate object and adding a species listing to characters. e.g. For Kiba Inuzuka, "Species: Human, Wolf".

        Loading editor
    • Na, it's alright like it is now. Orochimaru is the odd one out, after all. As long as we don't have to change his pronouns to "they/them", because that would be way too much work.

        Loading editor
    • Dantman
      Dantman removed this reply because:
      Unconstructive
      23:17, February 21, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • I think this thread should have been closed as soon as the problem was solved, continuation of this is quite pointless being everyone seems to be at a mutual agreement.

        Loading editor
    • Not really. The only reason this was done in the first place is to please minorities and to prevent other individuals such as the OP coming here in the future and demanding similar things. Not everyone agrees, some just pretend to be okay with it and are being sarcastic.

        Loading editor
    • Seelentau wrote: Na, it's alright like it is now. Orochimaru is the odd one out, after all. As long as we don't have to change his pronouns to "they/them", because that would be way too much work.

      Can you like end this now. Although various fits for Orcohimaru I really think this debate is degrading any not becoming helpful.

      Also, strange the OP created an account just for this...almost seems more spam then anything, but that's not the point.

        Loading editor
    • That's as far from spam as it can be. Not everyone who concerns themselves with topics like that are following an agenda or whatever. I thought about changing Orochimaru's sex to "various" myself back when he was shown as a woman. So yes, this was a valid point to bring up and discrediting OP for doing so only makes you look like an ass.

        Loading editor
Give Kudos to this message
You've given this message Kudos!
See who gave Kudos to this message
Community content is available under CC-BY-SA unless otherwise noted.