• Squinty97
    Squinty97 closed this thread because:
    Don't necro old threads
    16:57, September 25, 2019

    I've seen a lot of people dismiss this match-up without much to say about it, aside from just blurting "Kamui". I've thought about it but it doesn't make sense to me.

    Yes, it is absolutely correct that Kamui allows Obito to avoid many, if not all of Pain's tangible attacks, but it can be said to be the same vice versa. Obito's Kamui works perfectly defensively, but he fails to have anything in his arsenal to do any remotely decent damage back to Pain (lets say the fight takes place on even ground where either side has no extra knowledge so as to skew the fight). My argument is NOT that Pain/Nagato necessarily beats Obito, my argument is that the fight would result in a long-winded, rough stalemate.

    I have deduced all of Obito's abilities, and the way I see it:

    1> Obito's fire style is negated by Deva path's Shinra Tensei/ absorbed by Preta path. The deva path would not be able to negate a strong wood style attack from Obito, but given that wood style is simply a combination of earth and water release, and still uses chakra obviously, the preta path would still be able to absorb such a thing.

    2> If Obito attempts to suck a path into Kamui, he is forced to materialise, allowing Deva path to disrupt with Bansho Tenin/Shinra Tensei, flinging him across the battlefield.

    3> In the case that Obito does successfully suck a path into Kamui, the path in the Kamui dimension can attack Obito from the other side as accomplished by Kakashi. It is confirmed that the paths can still connect to Nagato, given that Nagato could still control the Animal path despite being inside Jiraiya's toad barrier, since there was no cut-off of chakra. Furthermore, it is repeatedly stated that the Rinnegan's visual prowess transcends the current plain where the shinobi world resides, and is exhibited when Nagato can use Rinne Rebirth to bring souls back from the afterlife. Given that Nagato has control over certain facets in the afterlife, and assuming that the afterlife is further "out of reach" than the Kamui dimension (as a way to word it), it would not be unreasonable to believe that Nagato may possess the ability to control the paths in Obito's pocket dimension.

    4> Obito's typical usage of Kamui is to surprise attack by appearing behind individuals with Kamui, catching them offguard. This may not be feasible, given the expansive field of vision Pain possesses through each path, as well as the Naraka path's King of Hell and all the Animal path summonings. This would make a surprise attack much more difficult for Obito to execute.

    5> This is partially headcanon, but throughout the whole manga, there has been no instance where a Rinnegan wielder has been afflicted by visual genjutsu. Sound genjutsu was used by the frogs on Pain, which worked incredibly, but it can be argued that the Rinnegan can see through the Sharingan's visual genjutsus due to its superiority as a dojutsu.

    6> Obito would not be able to see the chakra threads connecting the Pains to Nagato. The reason why Obito would not be able to see the chakra threads is that when Pain fought Kakashi, Kakashi's sharingan did not detect such a thing. Furthermore, Hinata's encounter with Pain, as well as the lone Hyuga watching the entire battle, did not notice any chakra threads from Pain, and the Byakugan is superior to the Sharingan in detecting chakra networks.

    7> Obito's display of taijutsu with Kamui is why Obito is renowned as one of the strongest Naruto characters. However, in order to land any form of physical attack/suck them into Kamui, he would have to materialise. I already mentioned the Deva path's disruption of such a thing, but this disruption in conjunction with the human path would make Obito wary. If Obito materialises, he risks being one-shot by the human path's soul absorption.

    8> Obito has no way of handling the ridiculous amount of summonings the Animal path has to offer, other than passing through them with Kamui. Again I reiterate, this shows that Kamui works perfectly defensively, yet fails to do anything back to Pain. This would mean that Pain's field of vision is greatly enhanced, and Obito has no way to handle some of the summonings physically ( the bird summoning is out of his reach in the sky, and he has no destructive jutsu capable of annihilating the panda summoning and others.)

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    • I severely doubt that Nagato can still control a path when it's in the Kamui dimension. It's a separate dimension. They essentially disappear from this world, like how Karin could no longer sense Sasuke's chakra when Obito saved him with Kamui

      Your point on Rinnegan vs Visual Genjutsu doesn't have many precedents, mainly because almost no one tried to Genjutsu a Rinnegan user. However, Sasuke was unaffected by Infinite Tsukuyomi due to his Rinnegan so you have one example going for you.

      Obito was able to fight Bee, Naruto, Kakashi, and Guy at the same time. Now, this is when he had the Rinnegan, but does the Rinnegan boost physical parameters at all? Idk about that

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    • AsianReaper wrote: I severely doubt that Nagato can still control a path when it's in the Kamui dimension. It's a separate dimension. They essentially disappear from this world, like how Karin could no longer sense Sasuke's chakra when Obito saved him with Kamui

      Your point on Rinnegan vs Visual Genjutsu doesn't have many precedents, mainly because almost no one tried to Genjutsu a Rinnegan user. However, Sasuke was unaffected by Infinite Tsukuyomi due to his Rinnegan so you have one example going for you.

      You make a fair point about the control in the Kamui dimension, but in terms of Obito fighting Bee, Naruto, Kakashi and Guy at the same time, the same can be said for Pain/Nagato's ability to take on large groups at once.

      Pain went toe-to-toe with the entire leaf village, including toad summonings and obviously Sage Naruto/Kyuubi cloak. Granted that some of the people helping Kakashi were average characters like Choji and Choza, individual character skill has little to no impact when a specific plan is put in place that doesn't require said skill (the chain trap for the Deva path). Moreover, Nagato was able to battle KCM Naruto, Killer Bee and Itachi at the same time. If any one of them were absent, it would be safe to say that Chibaku Tensei would end the battle inevitably. Additionally, characters like Kakashi and Guy would not have performed optimally against Nagato given the circumstances. Hence, Itachi being swapped out for Guy and Kakashi may be an essential factor that would make Obito's fight you mentioned much more difficult for Obito.None of those two, Kakashi and Guy, possess destructive ninjutsu capable of taking out the Chibaku Tensei.

      Therefore, if Obito instead was fighting against Bee, Naruto and Itachi, instead of Guy and Kakashi, the outcome may have differed.

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    • Pain was basically at full strength when he started out against Naruto. Naruto was giving a good fight, but he was losing. Until he pulled 6 Tails out and nearly killed Pain.

      Then Pain pulls Chibaku Tensei, which massively strains him. Naruto breaks out with 8 Tails.

      Obito fought Perfect Jinjuuriki 8 Tails Bee and Naruto fully powered from 9 Tails chakra (much stronger than his 6 or 8 Tails form).

      You're using Nagato from when he got use of his legs back and was reinitialized by Bee. If you're talking 6 paths of Pain, then Nagato is an emaciated cripple remote controlling from a tree.

      Kakashi can deal with Chibaku Tensei. If he can warp something as big as Gedo Mazo's head, he can warp the core of Chibaku Tensei.

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    • Pain was most definitely not at full strength when he started battling Naruto. He had just used Chaotic Shinra Tensei, and fought the whole Hidden Leaf village as I mentioned earlier. If Pain attacked Naruto with killer intent (remember Pain was trying to capture Naruto and not kill him) and attacked Naruto from the very start, Naruto would be dead. Pain started off without access to Deva path for the majority of the battle against Sage Naruto and had already exhausted a considerable amount of chakra, so saying he was at full strength at the start is not true.

      Naruto had constant help as well. Pain had successfully captured Naruto until Hinata interfered and triggered the Kyuubi rampage. Pain had also forced Naruto into almost going complete Kyuubi mode, which would literally kill him, but interference happened again when Minato redid Naruto's seal.

      Moreover, when crippled Nagato was hit by a lariat from Killer Bee, it visibly did nothing and Nagato began to absorb chakra. Nagato could handle Killer Bee as well as Naruto at the same time, in the situation you mentioned.

      Kakashi failed to warp the Gedo Mazo's head, and the Chibaku Tensei is not a fixed size, it would be difficult for Kakashi to successfully warp it with debris constantly being added to the mass of the Chibaku Tensei. Bare in mind, Itachi, Killer Bee and Naruto were able to land their ninjutsu due to the gravitational pull of the Chibaku Tensei. Given that Kakashi's Kamui is a space-time jutsu, gravity would not have an impact on this, and Kakashi would have a difficult time locking onto the core in the first place if he is plummeting upwards towards it.

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    • You're proving my point, Pain beat Naruto but lost when 9 Tails chakra was coming out, so where do you get this idea that Pain would best Naruto in control of all the Nine Tails chakra?

      In any case, at this point in the series, chakra exhaustion didn't affect anyone except Kakashi, and he would soon ignore the restriction as well.

      Naruto broke out of Pain's strongest attack with a weaker form than 8 Tails.

      Nagato was obviously absorbing as soon as Bee came close, and also Nagato is an Edo Tensei so it wouldn't really do anything.

      Kakashi literally only failed because Obito cancelled it. In fact Kakashi almost succeeded again before Madara summoned it and Kakashi only got its arm.

      Kakashi is fast enough to warp an entire Naruto clone in front of Obito with his Sharingan and Rinnegan active and he was fast enough that Obito didn't notice. Even against Pain, he warped the nail faster than Pain could perceive. Kakashi just needs to warp the core or the ball around it; as long as he does that before it gets bigger than Gedo's head, he can do it.

      Kakashi could aim Kamui at a small portal aimed at Naruto while he was plummeting through the air. Also while falling through the air, he could perceive his surroundings, take out a scroll and two kunai, tie a scroll around a kunai, chuck it into the rock above, throw a kunai at Obito to pin him to a wall, and catch Sakura. You underestimate his reaction and dexterity.

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    • My point was that Pain would defeat Sage Naruto flat out. Using the Kyuubi as a scale to gauge Obito and Nagato's strengths against each other is not fair as the Kyuubi creates a situational way of dealing with it. Obito could only control the Kyuubi because of an inherent ability to do so with the Sharingan, he is not the first to do this. Madara, Fugaku (itachi's dad) have been stated to do this/to be able to do this same task without difficulty. Pain attempted to subdue the 9 tails with brute force, and his efforts would be miles better than Obito's efforts to subdue the 9 tails with brute force. As Obito cannot cast the same genjutsu on Pain that he did on the 9 tails, it is illogical to use that as a comparison.

      Even if Kakashi could use Kamui on the core of the Chibaku Tensei, nothing prevents Pain from simply casting another black orb, as chakra exhaustion only occurs as a result of the Chibaku Tensei building up, rather than the production of the initial black orb. Also you underestimate the disorientation that would occur when being pulled into Chibaku Tensei, KCM Naruto stated for it to be impossible to focus and aim on such a thing. Kakashi falling down in Kaguya's dimension is a vertical line compared to a spiraling confusion of gravity with debris and rocks swarming around you.

      After all of the fighting Pain did, he was still able to create a huge Chibaku Tensei, so one can surmise that if he had only fought Naruto he could have made a much more powerful Chibaku Tensei or even multiple Chibaku Tenseis. Furthermore, Pain even said he would enlargen the Chibaku Tensei when 8 tails broke out, meaning that Chibaku Tensei may not have even failed if Minato didn't redo the seal!

      The main thing to bare in mind is that all of Pain's screentime excluding his fight with Jiraiya involves him at a disadvantage in numbers and preparation. Pain knew practically nothing about Naruto whilst the hidden leaf had weeks of analysing the Pain corpse and had informed Naruto on practically everything about Pain. Hence, the Pain we have seen in combat is a Pain where the odds are stacked against him, and he still delivered on what he intended to do for the most part.

      We're beginning to sidetrack, but what I have said proves that Pain is capable of keeping up with single-sharingan Obito in combat (not beating him, but resulting in a stalemate), as he can nullify a chunk of Obito's arsenal and overwhelms him with linked vision, spammable animal summonings, and the Deva path's disruptive abilities, not to mention his notably higher reserves of chakra as an Uzumaki.

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    • Obito has Izanagi as a last resort so that does tip the battle to his favor.. but Obito would never sacrifice his eye with Kamui so this is a one time move for this fight if he even uses it.

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    • If he did use Izanagi, he would simply leave the battlefield, but like you said he'd never do it. If Obito loses Kamui, he loses the sole reason why he is so OP in the first place.

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    • There would be no reason for Obito to use Izanagi. He is so versatile with Kamui in its usage that he could stretch those 5 minutes over nearly any amount of time (Assuming not using it for 1 second enables 1 second of use).

      Realistically, all it would take is Obito teleporting away the paths one by one and he could beat pain, lol.

      Also, Jiraiya used Genjutsu against the PAths at one point, for the person who said basically o one tried, lol. Not saying an MS genjutsu would work well, if at all, but genjutsu was attempted against it, lol.

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    • Princeharris1993 wrote:

      Also, Jiraiya used Genjutsu against the PAths at one point, for the person who said basically o one tried, lol. Not saying an MS genjutsu would work well, if at all, but genjutsu was attempted against it, lol.

      Shoulda been more clear. I meant no visual Genjutsu was tried.


      Entirely incorrect, Obito did not control the Kyuubi with his Sharingan during his fight in the 4th War.

      Also, you have legitimately no proof that it isn't the core that drains his chakra. In fact, Nagato was panting heavily from creating the core in the first place.

      KCM Naruto who is known for raw power and prank tactics vs a genius Shinobi who excels in all SHinobi arts. The difference is clear; if Kakashi can warp while tumbling through the air, so can Obito.

      Pain would literally lose to Jiraiya if Jiraiya had intel, and you're trying to tell me Obito would lose.

      He may have higher reserves, but since Obito is an Uchiha with Hashi cells, that advantage won't be much.

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    • I wasn't talking about the 4th shinobi war, I was talking about the Kyuubi rampage in the Hidden Leaf, when Obito HAD control over the Kyuubi.

      Incorrect, Nagato was not panting heavily from creating the core, he was panting upon nearing completion of the Chibaku Tensei.

      You're making out like KCM Naruto has no battle sense, when clearly seen in many of the times he fights, he has thought of unorthodox ways to counter his opponent. And there is a HUGE difference between Kakashi and Obito's warp powers that you obviously already know, Obito warps short-range and himself whilst Kakashi warps long range. Obito wouldn't need to aim at a Chibaku Tensei satellite to escape, whilst Kakashi would have to focus and lock onto the satellite.

      Pain would indeed lose to Jiraiya if Jiraiya knew EVERYTHING about Pain, but it certainly would not make the battle easy. Also, I mentioned at the beginning of this page that knowledge is a non-factor between single sharingan obito and Pain, so it's irrelevant.

      @Princeharris1993 Pain wouldn't just stand there and watch Obito suck up all the paths, he'd attempt to make the counters to it like I originally stated. The expansive field of vision would make it difficult for Obito to pull off surprise-attacks, and the Deva path would prove a nuisance whenever Obito materialises. To reiterate, I don't think Obito would beat Pain, or Pain would beat Obito definitively. Both their abilities can be walled and countered.

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    • @Halcyonite

      And yet in an actual fight with the Jinjuuriki of the Kyuubi, Obito did not use that to his advantage. So using it as a way to diminish his battle against Naruto in comparison to Naruto's fight against Pain is wrong.

      Incorrect. He pants from the formation of the core, read the chapter. He was panting heavily as soon as the core appeared in his hands.

      Kakashi has already demonstrated that when thrust into completely crazy situations that are almost impossible to prepare for, he has the versatility and presence of mind to deal with it as he can. Naruto? He fell in the lava dimension too but couldn't think to stretch chakra arms out to latch onto a wall and catch the others, or even smack them into a wall to stick via chakra control. And this was SPSM Naruto, so yeah I doubt KCM Naruto is a good metric for how well an actual elite Shinobi can aim in that situation.

      How is knowledge irrelevant? I read up there and I must've missed it

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    • I was not using that genjutsu control over the Kyuubi to diminish his battle against Naruto. Everyone always says something along the lines of "Obito captured 9 tails easily but Pain couldn't capture 8 tails form" etc. even though we can clearly see that the technique that Obito used is not unique to him and is entirely different to how Pain attempted to capture the Kyuubi. Obito could not capture the Kyuubi if he attempted with brute force, like Pain did. That was my point, so I did not agree with the Kyuubi capture being used as a comparison between the two as a test of strength.

      I thought you were referring to Nagato beginning to cough up blood, rather than the quote "Pant". And in fairness, it's safe to say that Nagato wouldn't be panting if he began the battle without any drawbacks and Naruto was the first opponent he would engage with. I get that in the war arc, chakra means nothing, but during the Pain arc, it was still a significant factor at least in Pain's case, a single person fueled the six paths of Pain to fight hundreds if not thousands of Shinobi, including all the notable ones, toad summonings etc, and then proceeded to blow up the whole village anyways.

      Even after all that, he was still in a good enough position to be able to challenge Naruto to a fight.

      I still disagree with Kakashi's ability to warp away Chibaku Tensei, as wouldn't he have at least tried to do so when Madara created the multiple Chibaku Tensei satellites, in order to help Sasuke out? Hence we don't know whether it is even feasible, the properties of the black orb may not even allow it if it is too dense etc. Moreover, Chibaku Tensei isn't the only means to take out Kakashi, Pain basically solo'ed Kakashi with Tendo, and adding Asura path to the mix made it a sure death for him until hidden leaf back up arrived.

      If Pain were to erase the threat of Kakashi's Kamui first, then Chibaku Tensei would annihilate everyone else, and this is pretending that Kakashi has the ability to erase the Chibaku Tensei satellite in the first place.

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    • @ Halcyonite LMFAO. Do you not realize how fast Obito is at using Kamui for intangibility and teleportation? He appeared within the Dust Release cube and teleported Sasuke away before it even detonated and we all know Dust Release cubes detonate near instantaneously. He was about to grab Naruto and teleport him away but turned intangible in a split second as Guy came through with a kick.

      Also, I know how the paths like to fight close range, and as soon as one gets into grabbing range, Obito will do what he does best. Hell, he doesn't even have to make contact for the most part, just be near them and he can warp them away quite fast.

      Sure, Nagato won't stand there and let it happen, but what can he do if Obito does? Send summons? Obito would wreck them with his Wood Release and a swift Kamui.

      Also, Kakashi wouldn't need to lock on to anything. He literally became so good with Long Range Kamui that he warped away Naruto's clone so fast that Obito thought it dissipated, and Obito was looking at him with a Rinnegan and a Sharingan.

      Stop trying to downplay Obito and Kamui.

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    • I've never downplayed Obito and his Kamui, his utility of it is masterful and like I said in an earlier edit he is one of the strongest Naruto characters no doubt. My problem is when people debate a fight between him and Pain, they act like Pain would go down in 2 seconds, but that is simply not true, even more so for Nagato.

      I now understand that he can simply limit Pain's versatility with Kamui fairly quickly with the easier paths to take down like Human and Preta, but it won't be so easy with the Deva path 100%, and the Asura path could utilise a similar strategy that Konan used with his missiles, rockets and laser beams, and as its a long-ranged fighter, it would most likely be out of Obito's reach for a short while. We know that Pain doesn't even need to move to activate Shinra Tensei, and he can do so once Obito materialises, and Pain can keep his Shinra Tenseis going for a prolonged period of time, like how Pain did so against Naruto's horde of shadow clones. This would provide him coverage to get to another vantage point. I shall reiterate, I don't think Pain beats Obito in the slightest, but I don't think that Obito massacres Pain as much as many people like to think. They're both talented tacticians and all it boils down to is whether people appreciate how Pain has the ability to counter some of his techniques.

      Moving onto Nagato, I believe that Nagato will give an even harder time for single sharingan Obito and actually stands a chance of defeating Obito unlike Pain, given the obvious having-all-powers-in-one-body, and he can substitute the loss of vision with animal summonings and the King of Hell. Yes, Obito is fast, but Nagato was able to keep up with Killer Bee and KCM Naruto, partially crippled. If we're talking about a prime non-edo Nagato, Nagato's speed isn't something to be laughed at.

      Nagato can create extra arms for increased versatility and defence, and if Obito were to come in and try and use Kamui, Nagato could use Deva path to Shinra Tensei him away, Asura path to achieve the same trick Konan used with paper bombs instead with missiles, or Human path to subsequently rip Obito's soul out. Moreover, even if Nagato doesn't rip out the soul in time, he is still gripped onto it, meaning Obito would not be able to suck him into Kamui as it would risk his soul also being pulled when Nagato is transported to the Kamui dimension. Additionally, Nagato can multi-task the Preta path as seen when Naruto used a Bijuu-amped rasengan on him and it did nothing, making Obito's wood and fire style jutsus ineffective.

      I have never downplayed Obito, and I highly respect his skill as some awesome intangible shinobi that bests many people in combat, but I could say the same to you for Pain/Nagato when you assume that he can do absolutely nothing to defend himself.

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    • ... You're arguing against arguments that weren't presented here.

      First off, you say "Everyone always says something along the lines of "Obito captured 9 tails easily but Pain couldn't capture 8 tails form" etc." in order to justify you saying that Obito has an easier time against Kyuubi because the Sharingan.

      But I was never making the comparison you're saying, I was comparing Pain and Obito's respective bouts against the Jinjuuriki of the 9 tails, where Obito didn't get an easier time fighting the 9 Tails just because of his Sharingan.

      Then later, you say "My problem is when people debate a fight between him and Pain, they act like Pain would go down in 2 seconds, but that is simply not true, even more so for Nagato."

      I certainly never said that, and I don't see anyone here saying that. Instead of arguing against only my points, you've argued against a different argument that only you brought to the debate, which I'm pretty sure is called a strawman.

      Also, regarding your point with Kakashi not warping away any CHibaku Tensei against Madara... Okay, first of all, those were way farther away than anything he's eve been known to warp.

      And also there's the small fact that he didn't even have the Sharingan at the time. Lol that's probably why he didn't use Kamui then

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    • AsianReaper wrote:

      Then later, you say "My problem is when people debate a fight between him and Pain, they act like Pain would go down in 2 seconds, but that is simply not true, even more so for Nagato."

      I certainly never said that, and I don't see anyone here saying that. Instead of arguing against only my points, you've argued against a different argument that only you brought to the debate, which I'm pretty sure is called a strawman.

      Kakashi not having Sharingan was an oversight on my part, my bad, but this still means we don't know if Kakashi can even warp a Chibaku Tensei in the first place. Additionally, I've not created a strawman in any way, the comments here clearly do underestimate Pain. Earlier, someone commented that "all it would take is Obito teleporting the paths one by one and he could beat Pain", insinuating that Obito could do such a thing in seconds, and neglecting any form of defense Pain could use against him. NO strawman, and with that comment I was not specifically referring to you, I was referring to the general consensus surrounding this versus. Instead of trying to dismantle my argument because I've brought some external information to the mix, and forgive me I am trying to be as eloquent as I can, I'd like you to appreciate some of the countermeasures that I have listed that Pain could use to exploit Kamui.

      I brought UP the comparison of Obito using the Sharingan during the Kyuubi rampage, because its one of the most common excuses for people to say that this is why Obito overpowers Pain. I decided to eliminate that comparison from the start, and I apologise if I didn't make it clearer earlier that no one here used this debate, only outside of this debate have I seen this perspective frequently used.

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    • Halcyonite wrote: Earlier, someone commented that "all it would take is Obito teleporting the paths one by one and he could beat Pain", insinuating that Obito could do such a thing in seconds, and neglecting any form of defense Pain could use against him.

      This is a strawman. The original argument is simply stating Obito's win conditions which are much simpler than Pain's win conditions. I don't see any time frame, presented in the actual argument. The only time frame is one you inferred, but what you infer is not the actual argument.

      You brought up Obito using the Sharingan during the Kyuubi rampage, but you brought it up in response to me noting that Pain was struggling heavily to trap 8 tails while Obito would comfortably fight 9 Tails of power. Your point was using the Kyuubi was not fair to compare the two, but it actually is since both Pain and Obito fought the Kyuubi Jinjuuriki, but Obito fought a stronger one. Obito using the Sharingan during the 9 Tails rampage is irrelevant in this argument.

      You asking me not to dismantle your argument and to consider your counter arguments instead is essentially you asking me to ignore the flaws in your responses to my points and instead move on to your other arguments.

      In regards to your arguments about what Nagato could do, keep in mind I personally have only been discussing Obito vs Pain. As in, 6 paths of Pain. Nagato is a different battle entirely and he's a different level entirely compared to 6 paths, so I was keeping at least my portion of the discussion simple so I could better keep track of what discussion I was having.

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    • Obito is walled by Deva

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    • Obito was boosted by that Rinnegan he had in his left eye, if he had the other eye he would have been even stronger, though he couldn't handle the other eye and its power so he only used one of them. This isn't Single Rinnegan Obito.

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    • LaughingLyon wrote: Obito is walled by Deva

      LMFAO. Obito is the worst match up for the Deva Path. No character in the series has ever been able to outright tell if Obito was tangible or intangible unless something was passing through him. I don't even know if anyone has been shown sensing him while tangible either, but either way, Obito could easily take the Deva Path.

      • Goes down like this: Obito charges the Deva Path similar to what Orochimaru was trying to pull in that one scene, and then Deva uses Shinra Tensei to no avail due to Obito going ntangible. At that point, the Deva Path realizes he messed up as Obito grabs him. Once Obito grabs him while he can't use ST, off to the Kamui Dimension he goes and he is cut off from Nagato.

      And that's just about done with any path he encounters except the Naraka Path. With the Naraka path, Obito would just need to get close enough to teleport him, and not touch him and GG.

      Nagato is a completely different matter because we all know how much of a beast he was against Naruto and Bee.

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    • @AsianReaper you've completely brushed over what I was saying. Strawman is if I refute something that was not brought to the table. What I quoted in my last message is something Princeharris1993 mentioned, time is in fact presented with how the sentence is worded. You yourself have stated that Obito's means of beating Pain is simpler, and with simpler efficient tasks, results in a heavily implied decrease of time. That statement assumes and insinuated that Obito will take down Pain in seconds, which is exactly the argument I am refuting. I am refuting an argument that someone else has brought to the table. Hence not a strawman.

      Additionally, the other external information I brought in regarding opinions about this versus, its purpose isn't to serve as a strawman as I'm just using it as a point of reference to the common conceptions regarding this fight, and I know you most likely are aware of these commonly used reasons, but this is a public discussion, I want to provide clarity in my argument to everyone.

      You are misconstruing the resources and opinions I brought to this discussion as flaws, my main argument was surrounding match-ups between Pain and/or Nagato and the countermeasures they can put in place against single-sharingan Obito, and I only brought up those aforementioned opinions as a point of reference.

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    • If the paths constantly have each others back as Fu and Torune did, with their number, plus if summonings are placed to increase field of vision then Obito ain't taking a single one of them. WHY would they fight this way? because the situation would demand them to do so, it's one of the best way to counter Obito's kamui as proven alot of times (konan vs obito, kakashi gai naruto vs obito, fu and torune vs Obito.) Obito's abilities aren't hard to deduce, Fuu and Torune did it completely in seconds and they didn't even lose a member whilst doing it as solid proof it works the way they think/see.

      That also begs the question how would the paths take Obito down? figuring out the time limit and then using that to their advantage is probably the only way lol

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    • Except for one thing. Konan and Nagato share intel and tell each other everything especially about the other members. Nagato would know about Kamui's workings liked Konan did. That changes the battle a lot.

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    • @Princeharris1993 Deva path can keep his Shinra Tensei going for a prolonged period of time, as seen against Naruto’s shadow clones. It is only when he stops using the technique that the 5 second interval starts.

      A prolonged Shinra Tensei would prevent Obito from getting an opening to materialise, and thus would be either pushed back if he did materialise or would lose his opportunity. Shinra Tensei is also omnidirectional, so Obito can’t attack him from the otherside while he does this. Not to mention, its not like the other paths are dead at this point, Pain would be using his push/pull technique to defend them at all times.

      @Jason of the Mangekyou Exactly. The thing is, the paths of Pain would be closer than Fu and Torune were in movements and teamwork because the paths are literally the same person. Their ability of teamwork is inhuman, making their fighting style against Obito without delay.

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    • Halcyonite wrote: @AsianReaper you've completely brushed over what I was saying. Strawman is if I refute something that was not brought to the table. What I quoted in my last message is something Princeharris1993 mentioned, time is in fact presented with how the sentence is worded. You yourself have stated that Obito's means of beating Pain is simpler, and with simpler efficient tasks, results in a heavily implied decrease of time. That statement assumes and insinuated that Obito will take down Pain in seconds, which is exactly the argument I am refuting. I am refuting an argument that someone else has brought to the table. Hence not a strawman.

      Additionally, the other external information I brought in regarding opinions about this versus, its purpose isn't to serve as a strawman as I'm just using it as a point of reference to the common conceptions regarding this fight, and I know you most likely are aware of these commonly used reasons, but this is a public discussion, I want to provide clarity in my argument to everyone.

      You are misconstruing the resources and opinions I brought to this discussion as flaws, my main argument was surrounding match-ups between Pain and/or Nagato and the countermeasures they can put in place against single-sharingan Obito, and I only brought up those aforementioned opinions as a point of reference.

      No, it is a strawman, because you inferred an argument from a different argument and argued that instead of the actual argument.

      Simpler win conditions don't imply decrease of time, it implies at most that Obito has less conditions to worry about. He doesn't have to kill Pain, he doesn't have to worry about Pain reviving itself, none of that. He just has to touch and warp them, which means he doesn't need to think too hard about, for example, the order of Pains he takes down.

      Your point of reference was irrelevant to the actual argument I made, and you put your "point of reference" in the same paragraph as you discussing my argument with me. You even used that point as saying it was illogical to use Kyuubi's power as a scale in power between Obito and Nagato, even though they both fought Naruto as a Jinjuuriki without the use of Genjutsu. So forgive me if I misunderstood your "point of reference" as a direct response to my argument.

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    • You failed to realize Pain can Summon each other back, and Nagato can Summon the paths too. Hell Konan could Summon them and vice versa. Warping them away won't keep them for long as they will eventually be summoned back.

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    • FlatZone wrote: You failed to realize Pain can Summon each other back, and Nagato can Summon the paths too. Hell Konan could Summon them and vice versa. Warping them away won't keep them for long as they will eventually be summoned back.

      That's a good point, but if Obito takes warps the summoner then Pain can't warp back. Nagato may be able to warp them back (idk if he can because when using the Pain bodies, he's attached to Gedo with his hands tied (unless he's pulling them out to do a move that'll kill himself) and the animal path requires hand seals), but then they're just back wherever Nagato is. Should it be considered an option when that means they retreat and have to make a trip back out?

      It doesn't exactly convince me that Pain would win, but that's a good point that I hadn't thought of, and certainly makes the much more difficult

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    • @AsianReaper Call it whatever you want, it was not intended as a strawman, it was not my main argument. It is your opinion that simpler win conditions doesn't imply decrease of time, whether you genuinely believe that or are using that to justify what you're saying. I think it does imply decrease of time.

      You misunderstand, when I did talk about Nagato and Obito's encounters with the Kyuubi, I was talking about the Kyuubi itself, not Naruto as the Jinjuuriki. My address of the commonly used reason for this versus going in Obito's favour was, by all means compare Obito vs Naruto and Pain/Nagato vs Naruto, but not Obito and his control of the Kyuubi and Pain's attempt to capture the Kyuubi, because as I said, genjutsu was used, making it an inaccurate comparison between the two if they were to fight each other. I shall reiterate, unfair comparison using the tailed beast, NOT the host. Both Obito and Pain/Nagato fought Naruto without the usage of genjutsu, making it a more accurate comparison than Obito and Nagato's differently attempted conquests of the tailed beast Kurama itself. Have I made sense or should I clarify more (not rhetorical)? On a side note, I don't want this page to turn into a different debate, so I apologise if I've confused you, and I'm trying my best to eloquently present my argument.

      @FlatZone I did not even think of that. Animal path could possibly stay safe in the sky where Obito can't reach him/her on the bird summoning, and whenever a path gets taken into Kamui, re-summon them. And thus the Animal path can keep spamming summons from a safe location.

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    • LMFAO. Obito can quite easily Kamui into the air just as easily as he can Kamui to another location. You really think a Shinobi capable of teleporting can't teleport into the air? That's nonsense.

      Once they are teleported to Kamui's dimension, they are done for. They can't be summoned back because all connections to them are severed. That's like saying if someone locks me in a room, i can easily unlock the door and escape without the key itself or any tools. Not happening.

      Besides, even if summoning did work, Obito can always just break the receivers or completely ruin/destroy the body itself and that will definitely put an end to them retrieving it.

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    • Well we know the summoning would work, considering Sasuke was able to summon Garuda in one of Kaguya's dimensions, and her space-time jutsu is much stronger than Obito's. As for their connections being severed, assuming that they are, it would be similar to summoning back ninja tools, and the Rinnegan's summoning abilities require no blood, hand seals, or scrolls to be used to complete the summoning, making the summon entirely feasible. Also, Nagato can perform this reverse-summoning himself, in the case that the Animal path is compromised.

      If Obito did damage a path until it was no longer fit for battle, that is what the Naraka path is there for. We all know Pain's formation, he keeps the Naraka path in the rear-most position, so he would be guarding it with Deva path for whenever Obito materialises, and with Preta path for Obito's fire and wood style jutsus.

      Seeing how high and fast the bird summoning can fly, we have never seen Obito teleport that high into the sky and I highly doubt Obito would be able to catch the Animal path this way, the highest we have seen him teleport if I recall correctly (ignoring geographical altitude) is on a tree against Naruto, Kiba and others, and it could be interpreted that he needs to teleport to a place where he has stable footing, like on the tree branch. It would be useless to teleport into the sky anyways, as once he materialises, he is subject to gravity, and I'm pretty sure Obito can't fly.

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    • Extremely likely Kishimoto forgot about the dimension thing. Mainly because it required Hagoromo and the power of a ton of Kage from the past just to summon them back to Earth's dimension.

      If it was so apparently easy for you to escape another dimension with just the summoning technique, you wouldn't need the power of the Sage of Six Paths and the power of lots of Deceased Kage just to transfer 4 people back home. They could of literally reversed summoned themselves back if that was the case.

      You can't repair the path without the body parts. Hell, all it would take is for him to get rid of the Naraka Path first and there goes revival.

      Also, I NEVER said Obito could fly. I just said he could teleport into the air.

      I'm sure you don't want crippled Nagato fighting Obito.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Except for one thing. Konan and Nagato share intel and tell each other everything especially about the other members. Nagato would know about Kamui's workings liked Konan did. That changes the battle a lot.

      If that's the case then the paths take the win, Obito's chances get's reduced by alot ;_;

      Halcyonite wrote: @Jason of the Mangekyou Exactly. The thing is, the paths of Pain would be closer than Fu and Torune were in movements and teamwork because the paths are literally the same person. Their ability of teamwork is inhuman, making their fighting style against Obito without delay.

      You make a good point, also the highest Obito went was on Madara's stone statue, which is still irrelevant as he was standing on something, and was never seen hovering except in a filler episode. So Gravity>>Obito.

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    • Princeharris1993 wrote: Extremely likely Kishimoto forgot about the dimension thing. Mainly because it required Hagoromo and the power of a ton of Kage from the past just to summon them back to Earth's dimension.

      If it was so apparently easy for you to escape another dimension with just the summoning technique, you wouldn't need the power of the Sage of Six Paths and the power of lots of Deceased Kage just to transfer 4 people back home. They could of literally reversed summoned themselves back if that was the case.

      You can't repair the path without the body parts. Hell, all it would take is for him to get rid of the Naraka Path first and there goes revival.

      I guess it is possible that Kishimoto may have blundered, but perhaps animal and tool summonings work differently to people. Additionally, it would be hell of a lot easier to reverse-summon from Obito's pocket dimension as opposed to Kaguya's dimension, so reverse-summoning shouldn't be crossed off the list. Also, as I said earlier, the Rinnegan enhances one's summoning abilities, so it is possible Sasuke was able to summon Garuda thanks to his newly acquired Rinnegan, and would be a reason why Pain would be able to re-summon the paths of Pain from the Kamui dimension. As far as I'm concerned, the Sage of Six Paths that you're referring to is merely an essence of the Sage of Six Paths, not nearly his full power when he was alive. This could explain why the Hagoromo needed that much help from the other Kage.

      No, you don't need all the body parts for the Naraka path to work. Before Naruto was summoned, the King of Hell was used to repair the Asura path after its clash with Kakashi, Choza and Choji, and the Asura path was missing some of its arms and its lower half body. And like I said, Pain would not leave Naraka path vulnerable, it has always been in the rear-most position for the best protection.

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    • Hagoromo only needed help because he was low on chakra, he just gifted almost half to Naruto and almost half to Sasuke in order for them to beat Kaguya, and to help them awaken their own powers. He would not have needed any of the Kage to help him if he wasn't low on chakra.

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    • @Halcyonite My opinion? Instead of arguing about whether or not Obito has an easier time because of win conditions or if he actually has more to account for than the simplicity of the win conditions, you argued an entirely different point and said it wouldn't take 2 seconds for Obito, even though no one said that and it doesn't actually address the argument.

      Irrelevant point in terms of my argument, glad you referenced it and your actual point is correct, but it didn't address anything in my argument.

      @Flatzone, fair point in terms of Hagoromo being very low on chakra, but it took several Edo Kage to manage the summon. I mention Edo because it means it's very likely that all the Edo had full chakra. This includes monsters like Hashirama and Tobirama, and also included 15 other Kage. I think all their chakra together is more than Nagato can muster.

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    • @AsianReaper It may be irrelevant to your point, but I thought the decrease of time was heavily implied, and that wasn’t its purpose, as you said, I wanted to reference it.

      Also, Hagoromo needed help because they were reverse-summoning Team 7 from one of Kaguya’s dimensions, which is a massively stronger space-time jutsu than Obito’s, so perhaps Nagato would not find any difficulty in reverse-summoning from Kamui. Also, Hagoromo was weak because he was an essence of himself rather than his alive stronger presence. Additionally, what FlatZone said about Hagoromo bestowing chakra to Naruto and Sasuke has a big role in this as well.

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    • Kaguya's aren't massively stronger (and if they were, it's not the actual reason they're so chakra taxing to open portals to), they're just massively further. Obito noted they were difficult to open portals to because they were so far apart.

      Regardless, the fact that it's a different dimension makes it very taxing to summon to and from there. From Kaguya's dimension, 17 Kage were needed to complete a summon. Even if Nagato (as Pain) can summon Pains back from the Kamui dimension, the fact that it's a different dimension means it will be more taxing than summoning from their regular dimension. SO I doubt it can be used indefinitely, essentially.

      However, have we ever noted a summon/reverse summon to work to/from Kamui? After all, when Obito sent Kakashi to Kamui's dimension and left him there, Kakashi didn't, for example, summon a dog to reverse summon out. We know that summoning jutsu take much less chakra then Kamui. So why did Kakashi use Kamui?

      Also, during Obito vs Minato, Minato noted that if Obito touched him first it was over. Why would that be the case? FTG is basically a reverse summon jutsu, so if you could use summons to get out of Kamui then it would be useless against Minato. But Minato made a point of not allowing himself to be teleported away.

      EDIT: in fact, why would Obito even think teleporting Minato was the way to beat him if he knew Minato used FTG? It's possible Obito's dimension is just one you can't summon out of or into

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    • Wasn't Jiraiya's Barrier: Toad Gourd Prison essentially another dimension? Didn't Pain summon the other paths from within it afterwards?? It's insides worked as another dimension hence the sheer size of it.

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    • @Flatzone it wasn't a different dimension, the toad that had people in it was still in this world.

      Also, going back to the first point I made on the forum, I don't think Nagato can even control the Animal Path if it gets sucked to Kamui, since their chakra disappears from our dimension (example being Karin couldn't sense Sasuke's chakra any time Obito warped him away) and Nagato controls Pains through chakra getting sent and received

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    • Nagato can summon them, as he has all 7 Paths abilities including Animal Paths. So whether he can feel their chakra or not he can summon the bodies. The whole him being able to summon them wasn't really explored upon until Naruto vs Pain though. So Obito could warp them but they would just be summoned back to Nagato. Also Barrier: Toad Gourd Prison is classified as Ninjutsu, Barrier Ninjutsu, Space–Time Ninjutsu, it is definitely a different dimension considering that the Path and Jiraiya's chakra signature completely disappear too.

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    • If Nagato summons them, they'll be far away from the battlefield anyways, so how is that a solution?

      In any case, again, how do you know that things can be summoned to and from Kamui dimensions? I've given you two examples of different versions of summoning jutsu being deemed unable to escape. Kakashi didn't try to reverse summon himself with his dogs (less chakra taxing than Kamui) and both Obito and Minato believed that if Obito teleported him away then Minato would lose.

      It's not a different dimension. FTG is space time jutsu as well. Not a separate dimension. The barrier cuts of chakra contact but they are still physically in our dimension, whereas Kamui dimension is completely separate.

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    • Kamui is the only way in and out of Kamui's dimension. So Summoning them won't work.

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    • @Princeharris1993 We don't necessarily know that, there is nothing that disproves it as we have not seen it accomplished in Obito's dimension, but we have seen it in Kaguya's dimension.

      I theorise that it is the Rinnegan that allows things/entities to be reverse-summoned from these dimensions; the Rinnegan enhances a person's summoning abilities, as they no longer require blood sacrifices, hand seals, scrolls and so on, and perhaps there is an underlying advantage being the ability to summon greater distances. And the Rinnegan having an impact on summoning abilities provides reasoning for Sasuke's ability to summon Garuda into one of Kaguya's dimensions, no other person who was taken into Kaguya's dimension showed the ability to do this (although it can be argued that they didn't need to because they're skilled enough without it). Moreover, this explains why Hagoromo was the one executing the reverse-summoning for Team 7 whilst the other Kage mainly funneled him with chakra, as he possesses the Rinnegan to be able to do so.

      It would explain why Kakashi used Kamui instead of using a reverse-summon, and why Minato couldn't use Flying Thunder God, as they perhaps couldn't since they don't possess the Rinnegan. Also, it might be possible that Minato was avoiding Kamui just for the sake of caution, he hadn't seen this technique before at the time, and rather than risk it, he would steer clear from it.

      It wouldn't be bad if Nagato had to summon the paths, as he's far, but not too far. He has to be close enough to create the chakra connections in the first place, and the paths of Pain wouldn't take long to get back to the battlefield. If they wanted to be fast enough, they'd ride on one of the animal summonings/send the animal path there by being thrown, so she summons every other path, like how they broke into the Leaf Village.

      What's the explanation for the male Animal path still operating when he was in that toad barrier, if there was no chakra contact? This suggests there must be a stronger link between Nagato and the bodies rather than just chakra, otherwise any other Shinobi could use their own chakra to make their own dead corpse puppets. I tried to argue this earlier with the fact that the Rinnegan's visual prowess transcends dimensions, even into the afterlife. The fact that the Rinnegan appears to be projected into each corpse's eyes could show such a thing, although this is just speculation.

      Additionally, yes repeatedly summoning the paths back from the Kamui dimension would be taxing on Nagato, but if we're talking about a battle, he would most likely be able to hold out longer against Obito due to his Uzumaki lineage for a considerably longer amount of time, we can't forget that Obito can become fatigued and chakra strained as time goes on. Pain's chakra rods may also prove a way to diminish his chakra supply, or to coax Obito into de-materialising.

      I also thought of the fact that when the female Animal path was summoned into Ibiki's torture chamber with all the cogs and wires, the animal path remained operating and put Ibiki out of commission. When she did, it appeared as though they were reverse-summoned back into the battlefield in Konoha. This supports the earlier claim of the Pains having stronger bonds to Nagato other than just chakra connections and provides another example similar to Jiraiya's toad barrier, as she remained operational despite being in a hazy barrier or dimension of some kind. Granted this may not be on the same level as Obito's Kamui, but it is something to be acknowledged.

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    • We do know it because Kamui's page says so, lol, and there is nothing else in the manga that would contradict it.

      There is nothing that says the Rinnegan enhances a person's summoning abilities. It just has a path that specializes in summoning. Realistically, anyone in the Narutoverse can form a contract with a animal or a person. The Rinnegan can likely bypass this contract to where one ca summon something pierced with the Black Receivers.

      But Kamui's page literally says Kamui is the only way in and out of the Dimension. Not to mention he had to be in a high area to maintain the best possible connection with the paths. This leads me to believe if you send them to another dimension, your control over them is pretty much screwed.

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    • @Princeharris1993 The Kamui page was put together by the Naruto Fandom, so it can be discredited. There is no referencing used as evidence for Kamui being "the only way in and out of the dimension", the only referencing around it explains why Obito is immune to harm during intangibility (chapter 666 page 5) and how he can use genjutsu on people trapped in Kamui to keep them subdued (chapter 520 page 9) (why would Obito need to subdue people with genjutsu in the first place if they possess no ability to escape from Kamui?). There is no explanation accompanied with evidence that states Kamui is the only means to escape the Kamui dimension.

      ^ If you say that Sasuke's ability to summon Garuda in Kaguya's dimension is a mistake, what prevents this from being the same case, but by the page writers for this website. Their claim that Kamui is the only access to and from the dimension is speculation. And if you cannot prove Sasuke summoning Garuda to be a mistake, then there should be no reason for the paths of Pain to be unable to reverse-summon.

      You're right, it isn't stated that the Rinnegan enhances a person's summoning abilities, but it is explicitly shown, Pain/Nagato has not shown the need to utilise standard procedures of summoning jutsus with blood sacrifices, hand seals etc, and he has never shown strain in his incessant spamming of summoning jutsus, including the initial summoning of the Gedo Mazo. You used the Fandom page as a way to refute another way of entering Kamui, so I can do the exact same by your logic in regards to the Rinnegan improving summoning abilties; the Rinnegan > Animal Path Fandom page states the benefits that accrue by using the Rinnegan to summon entities, the ones I have listed above.

      However, I do not need to rely on this, as I literally have the best example possible concerning Sasuke. Obito himself stated (chapter 683 page 14) that Kaguya's space-time jutsu is a lot like his own, and the fact that Sasuke was able to summon Garuda to a dimension most likely farther than Obito's pocket dimension, supports the idea that the paths of Pain can be reverse-summoned. And the only way to explain how Sasuke was able to do this, is something that sets him apart from every character that was in Kaguya's dimension: his Rinnegan, a trait he has in common with Pain.

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    • The Rinnegan allowed summoning to a dimension accessed by the Rinnegan; there's no correlation to Kamui. So I still see no indication that the Rinnegan allows summoning in Kamui.

      Obito was sure that if he teleported Minato, he would win. Obito knows FTG, and still believed he'd win. So FTG can't get out.

      Also, I haven't seen the Pain fight in awhile, but I'm pretty sure the Animal Path always used hand seals to summon things. So it still needs hand seals.

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    • Obito needs to be physical to touch and warp somebody. It's pretty safe to assume Konan and Nagato shared all information with each other, she knew how Kamui worked therefor Nagato knows how it works and what to look out for. That makes the fight much harder for Obito here. He gets too close to the deva path he gets shinra tensei'd for example. Is Obito allowed to search and find Nagato's location to kamui him? or do we just consider it a loss when all 6 Path's are beaten?? We must also consider that Obito and Black Zetsu considered Nagato to be near invincible and unbeatable and they knew Nagato's abilities better than the readers etc.. so maybe we aren't giving the 6 Paths and Nagato enough credit.

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    • @AsianReaper Kaguya has access to these dimensions through her Rinne-sharingan, we don't know for sure whether her ability of interstellar travel is thanks to her Rinnegan powers, it could be due to one of her other ocular dojutsus or an inherent ability of her own. You could also argue that because Rinnegan is the superior dojutsu to the Sharingan as its evolution, it would allow access to Kamui as it is a Mangekyou ability. Also, the evidence I used regarding Obito's space-time jutsu being very similar to Kaguya's space-time jutsu in my earlier comment can be used to explain how Sasuke summoned Garuda and why Pain should be able to reverse-summon from Kamui. (Trying to enter Kamui and trying to escape Kamui are two different things, Pain wouldn't be able to enter Kamui, but they would be able to escape Kamui.) This is why I think the Rinnegan must have boosted summoning abilities in general, as opposed to it specifically working in Kaguya's dimensions.

      By that logic, it makes sense that FTG would not be able to escape Kamui, although there's a slim chance that Obito was not aware of FTG being able to or he overestimated the power of Kamui, this is still kid Obito who is somewhat new to who can exploit his Kamui, but this is merely conjecture.

      I've noticed there's a discrepancy between the usage of the summonings as well as between the manga and the anime, the Animal path in the anime uses at least 10 hand signs to summon the centipede, but then proceeds to not use any handsigns at all for the bird, ox and ram, but in the manga she uses none, except for one handsign for the centipede.

      ^Judging from that, It's safe to assume that the Rinnegan still possesses the ability to summon without blood sacrifices or scrolls, but in terms of hand-seals, it may be either circumstantial or dependent on whether the user decides to use the hand-seals.

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    • Obito literally teleported Foo within 2 seconds with no contact, lol. And just in case you're wondering, yes, i did look up the battle and timed it right after reading your statement. And no, just because Konan knows about Kamui does not mean Nagato knows.

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    • Just checked the episode and the chapter, he was literally right in front of foo almost point blank range. As we saw the warp isn't instantaneous.

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    • @Princeharris1993 ^ I concur with what you said about Obito not needing to touch to teleport into Kamui, but he still needs to be in very close proximity.

      But I disagree on your latter point, knowing the relationship between Konan and Nagato and the dynamic between how the two of them perceived Obito, its almost impossible that the two of them never exchanged info around Obito and his Kamui. If Pain had successfully captured Naruto and extracted the nine tails, Obito and Pain would eventually clash with their differing goals, which would explain why Konan had been preparing all this time for her attack.

      But, this is just me rambling and speculating, and like I said, I wanted to void knowledge for both sides in this discussion. Obito does not know Nagato’s whereabouts, and Nagato only knows the basic rules of Kamui aka in order to warp other people he has to materialise etc

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    • It is far more likely Nagato knows what Konan knows, it would literally make no sense for her to withhold vital information like that from her best friend or closest thing to one. Nagato and Konan are not stupid, they didn't trust "Madara" in the long run as shown by Konan's words.

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    • It's funny how Obito needing a touch on his opponent before warping isn't consistent considering how he spent most of the war trying to get a hand on Naruto the entire time and probably every other time except for Sakura and Fuu

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    • Judging from this discussion, it's safe to say that single-sharingan Obito would have to work hard to turn this battle into a win.

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    • Wait, you're arguing that it's a dimension accessed through her Rinnesharingan. Okay, so since the Rinnegan and Sharingan came from the Rinnesharingan, that means it makes sense for Sasuke to be able to summon/ open portals through here and it makes sense that Obito can open portals in it with Kamui.

      That still means it doesn't make sense for a Rinnegan user to summon in or out of Kamui.

      Also, using Obito's naivety? At this point he was heavily trained by Madara and could physically contend with Minato, and he killed dozens of Jonin/Anbu of the Blood Mist Village immediately upon awakening the Mangekyo at all. Obit knows how Minato's FTG works, and apparently knew that if he got him to Kamui's dimension it'd be over.

      There's literally nothing pointing to anything being able to summon a Pain out of Kamui's dimension. There's more evidence that summoning out of there is impossible for anyone without Kamui.

      Also, you still haven't addressed the point that while Pain was spitting up blood trying to contain 8 Tails of Kyuubi, Obito was comfortably fighting with 9 Tails as well as the Perfect Jinjuuriki Bee and the top 2 Konoha Jonin. In fact, it's been noted that when the Jinjuuriki is in control, the attacks and power become more potent and focused. So Pain struggled against unchecked 8 Tails of Kyuubi while Obito was fighting Naruto and Bee at once, and actually almost got Naruto before Kakashi and Guy arrived. And you can keep in mind that Obito didn't wanna kill Naruto or Bee because he needed their Tailed Beasts

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    • What do you mean there's nothing pointing to Pain being able to reverse-summon from Kamui? The fact that Sasuke is able to summon Garuda to Kaguya's dimension, a space-time jutsu where its resemblance to Obito's is almost uncanny, is something that points to Pain being able to reverse-summon from Kamui. Also, entering Kamui and leaving Kamui are two very different things, Pain wouldn't be able to enter Kamui, but he would be able to escape.

      ^ As a way of explaining, imagine Bob casts a genjutsu on James. Bob knows the specific technique that activates this genjutsu, therefore in order to use this genjutsu, he must know the technique. However, James does not necessarily need to know the technique in order to "exit" the genjutsu e.g. physical pain could be used to break out of this genjutsu. There are many different ways to bypass the effects of various techniques, and this is comparable to Kamui.

      The space-time jutsu Kamui through Obito's sharingan is required to enter the Kamui dimension, but the individual trapped in Kamui may be able to use their own techniques and resources to escape Kamui, either successfully or ending in failure. If not, why would Obito need to cast a genjutsu on his captives in Kamui to subdue them, if there is no way for them to escape? He would rather not risk it, indicating that there is possibly a way to escape his dimension.

      Attempting to enter Kamui would mean that you're intentionally hijacking Obito's mangekyou ability, but leaving Kamui is a means of avoiding it, and as long as the animal path or Nagato are in the dimension where the shinobi world is, they'd be able to reverse-summon any other paths of Pain trapped in Kamui.

      It can be argued that Hagoromo was able to reverse-summon Team 7 back due to the Animal path. By your logic, the only way to escape Kaguya's dimensions would be to use Kaguya's wormholes, but that was proven not to be the case. Additionally, Hagoromo only needed chakra from the other Kage because he gave a lot of chakra to both Sasuke and Naruto, as well as the fact that he is only an essence of himself rather than alive, meaning that the chakra he had available to him was very limited. So in theory, Pain should be able to do this as well through his use of the Animal path to a much smaller scale: reverse-summoning from Obito's smaller pocket dimension that is closer rather than Kaguya's expansive and much farther multiple dimensions.

      I literally said that what I said about FTG was conjecture, I was just theorising a possible counter-argument. A couple press-ups and punches supervised by White Zetsu wouldn't necessarily propel Obito into beating Minato, so using "training" as an argument is insufficient, and Madara did nothing, he just sat in his chair siphoning chakra. But that doesn't mean I don't believe you in saying FTG can't escape Kamui.

      Did you forget that Pain fought the entire Leaf Village and then proceeded to blow it up? Shinra Tensei's usual interval is 5 seconds, and after Pain used Chaotic Shinra Tensei, he was unable to use the Deva path for over half the battle with Naruto. This must tell you how much chakra was spent using that technique. Even after all this, Pain stated himself that he would enlargen the Chibaku Tensei before Sage Naruto mysteriously reappeared, so he wasn't phased by the fact that the Kyuubi broke out. So under normal circumstances, Pain from jump would easily be able to produce a Chibaku Tensei capable of capturing the 8 tails cloak, if not the complete 9 tails. What happened in that battle between Pain and the 8 tails cloak does not accurately represent Pain's true power. And also, Pain didn't want to kill Naruto either, he wanted to capture him as well.

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    • Sasuke summoning Garuda is explained by a couple things. One, Kaguya's dimension is linked to her Rinnesharingan, and he has the Rinnegan. Also, he's got a bajillion times more chakra than Nagato.

      I know entering and leaving Kamui are two different things. However, anyone with a summoning jutsu should be able to leave Kamui, but literal Space Time Ninjutsu specialists can't leave.

      There has been literally no shown way of exiting Kamui except by Kamui, unlike your Genjutsu example which has proof of different methods of escape.

      Obito uses Genjutsu on those in Kamui so they don't gut punch him every time he's intangible, like Kakashi and Naruto did when they were in his dimension. Also so he can keep them docile when he pulls them out. Not because they could somehow escape.

      You can argue Hagoromo used the animal path, but again that dimension has a connection to the Rinnegan. Also, you can make that argument but there's no indication that it's the animal path besides the fact that a Rinnegan user made a summon that may or may not have been done using the Rinnegan. In fact, it seems like all summons done by the Animal Path have some sort of chakra receiver in them, so idk how well that theory holds water.

      17 Kage. One of them was Hashirama. There was also 3rd Raikage, Tobirama, Muu, just ridiculous chakra monsters. Even if Hagoromo was at 0 chakra, the amount he got from the Kage was absurd.

      ..."A couple of press ups and punches." Really? You know the databook noted that even using one Sharingan, Obito was trained to be almost a mirror image of Madara in life? Even though he wasn't quite at that point yet against Minato, you're really gonna discount him killing several dozen Jonin and Anbu, as well as forcing the 4th Hokage (who had flee on sight orders during his war) to take him seriously? Alright, treat him like he doesn't know what he's doing lol, idk what to tell you.

      A cooldown for a technique doesn't scale to chakra used. Shisui's mangekyo had a cooldown of 10 years, but we know the technique didn't use 10 years worth of chakra because then he'd be dead. We know when a user is low on chakra because they visibly show it; it correlates to how fatigued they are. The Deva Path was fine, standing and moving just fine. The cooldown was just a cooldown

      "Wasn't phased" But was coughing up blood and Konan was super worried about him, okay. Obito fought the full 9 Tails while keeping the other beasts under his control fought the full 8 Tails, fought Gated Guy and fought Kakashi, all at the same time for an extended period and still showed no signs of exhaustion at all.

      Pain fighting the village? I doubt Pain broke a sweat. Pain's only issue during the entire fight against Konoha was Kakashi, and even against Kakashi he was mainly in control of the fight and was completely fine when the fight was over. The only casualty was the Asura Path, who was revived right after.

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    • AsianReaper wrote: Sasuke summoning Garuda is explained by a couple things. One, Kaguya's dimension is linked to her Rinnesharingan, and he has the Rinnegan. Also, he's got a bajillion times more chakra than Nagato.

      We don't know for sure that Kaguya uses her Rinnegan powers to access her dimensions, as it could be her Sharingan power, Byakugan powers (unlikely), or an inherent ability of her own. Even if it was her Rinnegan power, that does not mean Sasuke was able to summon in her dimension because of that. By that logic, if someone with a Sharingan was trapped in Kamui, they could summon anything they wanted in there, simply by possessing a Sharingan. I think that Sasuke was able to summon there as a result of the expanded summoning capabilities that the Rinnegan provides, rather than just allowing him to summon in Kaguya's dimension specifically.

      No, Sasuke definitely doesn't have "bajillions" more chakra than Nagato. The most definitive difference that Sasuke has from Naruto is precision and skill. He relies on defeating his opponents quickly in order to reserve chakra, similar to Itachi. Naruto's monstrous chakra is how he kept up with Sasuke's skills in the first place, training with hundreds of shadow clones. By the point of Rinnegan Sasuke, yes he probably does possess more chakra than Nagato, but not bajillions. If how much chakra Nagato had expended in his assault wasn't enough proof for his monstrous chakra, his Uzumaki lineage is renowned and touted for the aforementioned, as well as durability and tenacity.

      The only people that were sucked in Kamui that had emphasis on their abilities that I can think of were Torune, skilled with his bugs, Fu, who is skilled as a sensor, and Kakashi, who obviously possesses Kamui, so unless you're referring to the discussion surrounding Minato vs Kid Obito, I don't know what character/s you mean. It may be true that no one has shown the means to escape Kamui, but that doesn't necessarily prove it is impossible, and we haven't seen anyone with the Rinnegan trapped in Kamui without a way out to disprove Pain's ability to reverse-summon out of it. Moreover, as I said earlier, Obito stated that Kaguya's dimensions and his own were exceptionally similar, and the fact that a reverse-summon was achieved by Sasuke in one of her own, there'd be no reason to believe that the same is not possible in the Kamui dimension: a dimension so similar to Kaguya's. (Also, on a sidenote, it is claimed by a Fandom page accompanied with evidence that travelling through Kaguya's dimensions cost considerable chakra, but travelling to and from Kamui does no such thing. Hence, this would be a reason for Pain's longevity in executing several reverse-summons to rescue the paths of Pain from Kamui).

      You made an interesting point about the chakra receivers in Pain's summonings. They may well just be regular summonings like a normal dog or a normal bird that Pain put receivers in so they can project the Rinnegan through their eyes. I didn't think about that before. But regardless, one of the Rinnegan's summoning benefits is that it can even summon people like Konan as well as animals, along with the paths of Pain, which is why I think Hagoromo used the Animal path in this way. If I recall correctly, there is no way to summon people without the utility of blood sacrifices, contracts or scrolls, unless the user possesses a Rinnegan. And when Hagoromo summoned Team 7, there were no such things put in place, aside from the typical black lined outlining that happens with every summoning made ever, which leads me to believe that he used the Animal path.

      You make a fair point regarding the 17 Kage, but I noted in this edit earlier that travelling to and from Kaguya's dimension seems to cost considerable chakra according to Obito when he was searching for Sasuke, but this isn't the case for Kamui. Since Hagoromo was summoning them outside the dimensions altogether, it would probably cost even more. Although does it state whether all 17 kage use ALL of their chakra, or just some? In any case, Pain would be able to reverse-summon from Kamui without the expenditure of such chakra, and if we want to assume that reverse-summoning would still cost chakra unlike Obito's use of Kamui, it still wouldn't be much either.

      I gave a rather flippant answer regarding Obito's training but I didn't realise you'd take it seriously lol. And I don't trust the databooks at all, as they claim ridiculous things like Hebi Sasuke being able to wipe out the entire Akatsuki. But my main point around Kid Obito was that he was less experienced with use of Kamui against OP opponents like Minato, so he may not have known that FTG could theoretically escaped Kamui anyways, that's it.

      Actually, Pain's Shinra Tensei cooldowns do correlate with chakra used. Whenever Pain uses Shinra Tensei, the more chakra he pours into the technique, the greater the force of the technique. Konan even acknowledged that the amount of chakra that he poured into Chaotic Shinra Tensei was so great, that it would shorten his life span. Therefore, Shisui's ability cooldown is different to this particular case. And Deva path or any other paths looking fine doesn't matter, it's Nagato who would look extremely fatigued, as the paths of Pain are just puppets. For example, when fighting Hinata, Nagato coughed blood which made Deva path get punched by Hinata, but the Deva path still looked rosey.

      When I said he wasn't phased, I meant mentally. He wasn't like "Oh crap now what do I do", he calmly said something along the lines of "I'll have to make Chibaku Tensei bigger then". So your general argument around Pain not expending much chakra except for Kakashi is not true, as he had expended a lot of chakra throughout the whole fight, so my original point saying that Pain's battle does not accurately represent his power still stands.

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    • First point is just largely speculation with no evidence showing one can escape Kamui

      Sasuke has many times more chakra than Nagato, seeing as Nagato gave one big Shinra Tensei, fought Naruto, and used one Chibaku Tensei and was coughing up blood. In contrast, Sasuke fought first Juubi Madara, then Kaguya, then used 9 Chibaku Tensei, all of which were stronger than the one Nagato used, then fought Naruto. Easily many times more chakra.

      You said "If not, why would Obito need to cast a genjutsu on his captives in Kamui to subdue them, if there is no way for them to escape?" So I answered by reminding you that they would be able to harm him while he was using his intangibility in the regular dimension.

      Kamui has shown several times that there's only one way in/out; Kaguya's have shown several.

      Obito has shown no chakra drain from going to/from Kamui because A) that's his technique and B) He has a body of Hashi cells. You can use Kakashi as comparison; it obviously takes a lot of chakra to get there/back. Not a lot compared to Nagato's full reserves, but a sizeable amount, and certainly more chakra than a summon.

      Kid Obito can be as little experienced as you wanna believe, but his feats have him killing several dozen Jonin/ Anbu with ease, killing all the Anbu Minato set up to protect his own wife, and making Minato have to focus on him instead of the rampaging Nine Tails destroying his village. Not to mention he was a Chunin who worked with Minato in war time; he knows FTG. And he was certain Minato wasn't leaving Kamui's dimension.

      I'm saying the cooldowns don't, for example, have a 1 to 1 correlation with chakra. Because Pain was still fighting quite regularly while Deva Path was on cooldown, and none of the other Pains had any performance drops.

      How do you know he expended a lot of chakra against Kakashi? Didn't seem like he even used many techniques at all. Just the technique that he spams, and therefore doesn't use up too much of his chakra.

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    • The Sasuke you mentioned not only had half of Hagoromo's chakra at his disposal for all of those feats, but for the last feats he had the 9 TB's chakra at his use. You also forgot to mention SPoP had already fought and killed Jiraiya before coming to Konoha and had spammed different techs when they came to Konoha including multiple Shinran Tensei and Bansho Tenin along with a colossal Shinra Tensei to crush Konoha, a Chibaku Tensei to hold V2 6 tails Naruto(which it did) and he was about to make a bigger one that could hold the 9 tails itself, all that while he was emaciated. Nagato's reserves are gigantic, Sasuke while using half of Hag's chakra and then later the 9TB's chakra would obviously be larger.

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    • @FLatzone, he didn't have 9 TB at his disposal until he literally brought them from however far they were away and actually funneled chakra into his Susanoo. He did the rest on his own.

      Also, Naruto and Sasuke kept their powers from Hagoromo so the fact that Sasuke was powered up by Hagoromo is irrelevant; it's his power now.

      Pain didn't kill Jiraiya and then immediately fight Konoha, there was a period of time between the two. They got the news of Jiraiya, decoded the message, Naruto went off to learn Sage Mode and Kumite and Rasenshuriken. The fact that Pain killed Jiraiya has no bearings on his chakra levels when he arrived at Konoha.

      Yes, he spammed tech, because he had the chakra levels where he could spam tech. I also already mentioned Almighty Push.

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    • @AsianReaper

      Absence of evidence does not constitute impossibility, and the perfect comparable example has been seen through Kaguya's dimension, which as stated by Obito is a lot similar to his own. I speculated earlier that Kaguya's interstellar travel may not be a Rinnegan power, and instead be Sharingan, Byakugan (unlikely) or an inherent ability of her own. Moreover, the ability to exit Kaguya's dimension via reverse-summoning as well as Sasuke's ability to summon Garuda provides the theoretical grounds that Pain can reverse-summon from Kamui. Also, there has not been several ways shown to exit Kaguya's dimension. The only ways are her own wormholes, Obito's incredible strain sifting through each dimension (not teleporting out completely), and reverse-summoning.

      The cooldown does have a 1 to 1 correlation with chakra. This has been emphasised time and time again, and the process has been broken down completely by Katsuyu. Pain's base usage of Shinra Tensei will always be 5 seconds, but when he tacks on more chakra, the interval is longer, which is why Chaotic Shinra Tensei had an interval of half the battle. More chakra, longer interval.

      You're severely underestimating the cost of using Chaotic Shinra Tensei. It literally reduced his life span, indicating that an extremely unhealthy amount of chakra was used up in one go, most likely at least 50%. Something like Chibaku Tensei is intended to be as destructive as it is, and normal usage of it has shown no adverse effects like your life being shortened. Pain adapted a technique that is supposed to be used only at base or slightly stronger levels, and amped it to an immensely dangerous level. And the craziest part about it is that he had fought the entire Hidden Leaf before this.

      When Nagato invaded the Leaf, he obviously went as the Six Paths of Pain. What you fail to realise is that his mode of attack is six individual people fueled by the chakra pool of one person. If you got someone like Kakashi or Itachi to split into 6 different people but still retain the chakra of 1, they literally wouldn't last minutes if they were fighting the amount of people that Pain fought in Konoha. So this, along with Chaotic Shinra Tensei, Pain's fight with Sage Naruto, Ma and Pa w/ Toad Summonings, the six tails Kyuubi cloak, the use of Chibaku Tensei and the revival of hundreds if not thousands of people with Rinne Rebirth, demonstrates what a chakra monster Nagato is.

      Realistically, I would guess that Sasuke has 1.75x to 2x the amount of chakra that Nagato has, absolute maximum. He hardly uses any extreme chakra taxing techniques against Juubi Madara, being one amped Chidori, a few Rinnegan TPs and a few swings from a Susanoo sword. Then with Kaguya, we see a few more Susanoo sword swings and one Amaterasu. Then Sasuke gets tp'ed to the desert where he doesn't get any action for a while. When he finally returns via Rinnegan TP, the only other attack he does against Kaguya is a final Rinnegan TP + Chidori. The battle ends when they put the seals on Kaguya.

      The only extreme chakra-taxing technique that Sasuke uses before his battle with Naruto is multi-Chibaku Tensei, and I am absolutely confident that if Nagato was at his prime amount of chakra, he would be able to make either one gargantuan Chibaku Tensei, or multiple Chibaku Tensei's, and this is ignoring the fact that a strained Pain said that he would be able to enlargen Chibaku Tensei anyways! Even in Sasuke's battle against Naruto, he utilised Kirin which is 100% external chakra, and he stole a ridiculous amount of chakra from the nine tailed beasts to fuel his strongest attacks for the second half of the fight, and stole some of Naruto's chakra in the last skirmish. Sasuke knew his weakness when he fought Naruto, he knows that his chakra reserve has never been the greatest, so he took measures to turn the battle in his favour. I completely agree that Sasuke has more chakra than Nagato, but absolutely not "bajillions" or "many times more", I realistically estimate that he has no more than double Nagato's chakra supply.

      Your original point was that Sasuke would be able to summon Garuda because his chakra is "bajillion" times more than Nagato's, but I've made my case that Nagato's chakra supply remains more than sufficient to comfortably be able to use reverse-summoning to escape out of the Kamui dimension.

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    • It's already been discussed here as to it probably being a mistake that Sasuke could summon Garuda. Since Hagoromo needed the chakra of 17 Kage to get them out.

      You either don't know what I mean by 1:1 ratio, or you don't know what 1:1 ratio is. And just because a technique shortens life span doesn't mean it's using up so much chakra that it weakens them in the ensuing fight. Naruto's Kyuubi cloak, Tsunade and Sakura's Creation Rebirth, etc.

      When exactly did I fail to realise Pain was powered by one person? Nagato used Pain because he had the chakra to do so, and because his own body was attached to the Gedo Mazo. But that essentially just means they're Shadow Clones who don't die on getting hit.

      Wanna talk about cooldowns? He uses his Rinnegan so much that he has to wait for his eye powers to return during the fight. Sasuke used a lot of chakra. Especially by your metric. But even if we don't use your metric, Perfect Susanoo is the literal equal to a Tailed Beast, and Sasuke forms it several times.

      Nagato isn't at his prime amount of chakra for literally any point of my discussion, so I don't feel the need to touch on that. I'm talking about when he uses 6 paths and is emaciated on the Gedo. And if you don't think Sasuke has bajillion times more chakra than Nagato stuck to Gedo Mazo, I don't think I need to discuss that point further. Also Pain says he'll enlarge the one CHibaku Tensei to try and restrain 8 Tails while coughing up blood and his right hand lady telling him not to do it. So impressive next to 9 Tailed Beasts captured immediately without strain after fighting Juubi Madara and Kaguya.

      There is still literally 0 evidence of ANYTHING existing Kamui of its own volition except Kamui. You keep noting one statement of saying that Kaguya's dimension and Obito's dimensions are similar; that can literally mean anything. They're both other dimensions that can be enterred and exited for different advantages.

      ... Wait I completely missed this argument from before. "It might be her Sharingan power, not her Rinnegan power" for using the dimension hopping... What? He using her Rinnesharingan doesnt't separate powers between two dojutsu, it's one dojutsu. The fact that it's a Rinnesharingan means that the Rinnegan and SHaringan can also use it to smaller extents (if we're using the theory that that is the reason Sasuke and Obito could somewhat use the dimensions). But yeah, the Rinnesharingan isn't just Rinnegan plus Sharingan, it's completely combined. Otherwise we'd be calling Sasuke's Rinnegan a Rinnesharingan.

      Also, Sasuke uses his Rinnegan to get to Kaguya's dimensions, so no it's not Sharingan power.

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    • This discussion will get no where considering I have my own speculations and evidence, whilst you have yours.

      Saying that Garuda being summoned was a mistake, is moot. If you wanted, you could say that about anything in the plot that you didn't like, didn't agree with, or could be construed as a plothole. Juubito not being allowed to use Kamui is bs, but it still happened, and the majority of people don't care about that. The constant changes to how someone acquires the Rinnegan is bs, it's a whole bunch of retconning. This summoning of Garuda could be the exact same thing. Hence, blaming Kishimoto for something that happened in the manga doesn't make a good argument.

      This argument around Kamui can go back and forth dude, absence of evidence does not constitute impossibility. All of what has happened in Kaguya's dimensions and what we understand of Pain's abilities creates the theoretical grounds for Pain to use a reverse-summoning out of Kamui. By all means, find something that definitively disproves this, but using "mistake" or "no evidence" doesn't mean crap. For example, you say that Flying Thunder God cannot escape Kamui, and there is literally no evidence to prove that, you only speculated, but did I use that as an argument against you? No. I still understood your point that Obito knew Minato and must have observed his FTG thoroughly in order to be that convinced of victory, but that doesn't stop me from theorising that Minato could leave a Hiraishin seal in the real world to escape Kamui.

      I already admitted that Sasuke has more chakra than the Nagato I was talking about, but I still think it is 2x. You're thinking that I'm underestimating Sasuke when in fact I'm not. 2x the amount of chakra Nagato has is insane, and I'm not gonna bother to re-analyse the fights Sasuke had partaken in, as I stand by my points, it's not my problem if you don't agree. Your justification for Sasuke's chakra being "bajillions" more than Nagato's is the fact that he is emaciated from using the Gedo Mazo? Even in his crippled form, he accomplished amazing feats in his invasion of Konoha, and expended a crazy amount of chakra for a single person. Moreover, Nagato being emaciated held a much heavier impact on his mobility and physical strength, as opposed to his chakra supply. I also want to note that Nagato coughing up blood may not even be due to a shortage of chakra. Itachi was coughing up blood due to an unnamed illness, thus that was not necessarily an indicator of low chakra levels. Nagato has literally been impaled by metal rods in his back, has an extremely malnourished body, and his lower half body was completely scorched by Hanzo. I'm pretty sure that more than suffices as a long-term health condition, explaining why Nagato would cough up blood.

      It only says that the level of power output of a Perfect Susanoo is comparable to a Tailed Beast, not chakra usage. Susanoo's usage of chakra acts like a sap steadily draining chakra over time; Sasuke described it as a strange aching pain in the cells in his body. With this in mind, the amount of time that Sasuke had his Susanoo open continuously, lasted for a handful of panels. In his fight against Juubi Madara, he activated his Susanoo for less than a minute chopping away at Chibaku Tensei's, and that was it. For Kaguya's fight, it was even less than that, he just bumrushed Kaguya and then she immediately melted the blades. The last part of that battle was taken up by Kakashi's Susanoo. If anything, that still puts Sasuke's chakra at just double Nagato's chakra.

      Konan has always been protective of Nagato, its in her nature. She had been warning Nagato for different things throughout the entire fight, it's not like that indicates Nagato's inability to do something. We can clearly see that he still had more than enough chakra, as he successfully created a Chibaku Tensei anyways (that he intended to enlargen), and to top it off, he executed a Rinne Rebirth reviving thousands of shinobi/villagers.

      I still think you're underestimating Chaotic Shinra Tensei. Your example of Creation Rebirth has the exact same facet of using a ridiculous amount of chakra in one go, it literally says it on the Fandom page accompanied with evidence in Chapter 169. Without a doubt, Pain used up a huge chunk of his chakra whether you like it or not by using CST, and I still estimate that it would be around half of his whole chakra supply. Both examples of life-shortening jutsu have been deemed to reduce chakra levels by a vast amount in one go.

      How does Sasuke's cooldown of his Rinnegan TP indicate that he used a lot of chakra, but Pain's fat cooldown of Chaotic Shinra Tensei doesn't? We know that it was only his Rinnegan TP that needed a cooldown rather than all his Rinnegan powers, because he realised he couldn't use Rinnegan TP during his last skirmish with Naruto. Additionally, he had still shown the ability to use the Preta path, implying that he had access to his other Rinnegan abilities. The only Rinnegan techniques that we have seen Sasuke use outside of Chibaku Tensei is Bansho Tenin, the absorption of the Preta path, and his special teleportation technique. Bansho Tenin doesn't take much chakra to use, and Preta path doesn't take any chakra to use at all, implying that Sasuke's Rinnegan TP was the brunt of his chakra usage, next to Chibaku Tensei, in his Rinnegan for those particular fights. Even still, we haven't seen Sasuke's teleportation technique enough to deduce the exact amount he uses in order to trigger a cool down. Pain's Deva path has been seen enough that we can note its base usage at 5 seconds, and any stronger variants as even more. If we wanna argue that Sasuke's Rinnegan TP cooldown shows that he has used chakra, then that means throughout his whole time fighting Juubi Madara, Kaguya and Naruto with Rinnegan TP, its first cooldown happened towards the end of Naruto's fight? That would imply he didn't even use much chakra by using that technique in the first place. Ergo, his usage of Rinnegan TP didn't contribute much to the diminishing of his chakra supply, rendering it less than the "bajillions" more than Nagato's that you insistently reply.

      I decided to take a look at the Rinnesharingan page, and sure enough, it says that it only has the ocular powers of the Sharingan, accompanied with evidence. From that, we can deduce that Kaguya's dimensions are even more similar to Obito's than we thought, and this disputes the idea that Kaguya's dimension is formed by Rinnegan visual prowess. That being said, this doesn't mean that Sasuke was able to summon Garuda to the dimension because of his Sharingan, as the Sharingan doesn't have any direct influence over summoning jutsus, whilst the Rinnegan obviously does through the Animal path. Also, Sasuke doesn't use his Rinnegan to actually move between dimensions, he was only able to because he saw Sakura's burnt coat through a wormhole that Obito created: Sasuke's Rinnegan doesn't give him the ability to move between Kaguya's dimensions by himself.

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    • No, Sasuke kept the powers he awakened.. he did not keep Hagoromo's chakra which is more in quality and quantity. You keep the powers and abilities that YOU awaken that's it. ALso @Halcyonite Sasuke has his own Space time ninjutsu now and uses it to travel dimensions including Kaguya's on occasion.

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    • @Halycnite this is getting nowehere, but you're entirely incorrect about your last point. Sasuke uses the Rinnegan to open portals to Kaguya's dimensions

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    • Honestly, I would give this battle to Obito, he only has to beat the 6 Paths to Win and he has the means to do so.. he might die in the end but if he beats them then that doesn't matter.

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    • @AsianReaper I agree, it is getting no where. When did Sasuke get access to this space-time jutsu? Because I don't recall him using it in the fight against Kaguya. But regardless, I appreciate you taking the time to debate with me, I've found it interesting.

      @FlatZone From the beginning of the debate I stated that I didn't necessarily think that Single sharingan Obito would be defeated by Pain. But that also doesn't mean I don't think Pain has the means to defeat Obito. My only issue was that people would act like it's a stomp, and I wholeheartedly disagree. I think Pain would definitely make Obito work for it, I've discussed how and why earlier.

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    • @FlatZone Thanks, though it doesn't specify his first use of it, unless I'm blind.

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    • I think Naruto chapter 700+8, page 17

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    • Kamui takes alot of chakra and Negsto jas a lägger chakra pool and Negato knows utgår Obito vän där away. Negato had the rinnegan. He was a walking untouchable tank until Naruto and Madara. Obito better pretend he was Madara and act stronger than be was until Negato died.

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