Well, it turns out you were right. Anyone who says Momoshiki is stronger than Kaguya did not pay attention at all to Boruto/Naruto Shippuden's story of the mother of chakra. Momoshiki only claimed that he was stronger than Kaguya, because she feared him, was pathetic, and went so far as to create an army of White Zetsus to hold him back. That's not quite true. Kaguya built a White Zetsu army because not only Momoshiki was after her, but also the entire Otsutsuki clan, because she was a traitor.
The main reason why Kaguya is stronger than Momoshiki, is because Sasuke and Naruto, who both have half the power of Hagoromo, fought Momoshiki (with Kinshiki) and clearly battered him. This led Sasuke to mock Momoshiki saying that Kaguya looked to be stronger then him. And it turns out true. Not even current Sasuke and Naruto can defeat Kaguya. If Hagoromo and Hamura who were leagues above these two, couldn't defeat Kaguya, then they can't, which definitely means Momoshiki (even w/Kinshiki) can much much less defeat her. It's logic. We can all thank Kaguya was sealed, because she would have otherwise ended the shinobi world with an in-understandable power. This is my hypothesis. You can feel free to judge it.
1. If they're stronger than their teenage selves, and their teenage selves successfully sealed Kaguya, then using them as a comparison to show the difference between Kaguya and Momoshiki is kinda inaccurate.
No said proof that they are stronger than when they each had borrowed half of Hagoromo's chakra and they each had the yin and yang seals and needed Sakura, Obito, and Kakashi to fight and then seal Kaguya. I definitely agree they are far more skilled and have more techs at their disposal now though.
1. Not really. It's just logic. They borrowed half of Hagoromo's chakra. They equal 1 Hagoromo and a hint of chakra stronger. Momoshiki got defeated by them. Kaguya did not get defeated by people WAY stronger then those two. Too bad they didn't show that part in our face for proof that she is strong. I think Momoshiki has way more redeeming qualities than Kaguya, given his tremendous abilities and story, but it's just a matter of badwriting. Kaguya was more or less a forced creation on the Naruto universe, so her story was a bit rushed, and she was simply overpowered without thinking of proper fights that could back her omnipotence up. They just say she is powerful. Don't blame me. And no, they didn't seal Kaguya. Kakashi did most of the part with his Susanoo.
2. With everything given on the Boruto anime, and how much importance Sasuke has given Kaguya, we can say he misinterpreted Momoshiki as big threat. He said this without basis, because it was before discovering Kaguya was a traitor to the Otsutsuki clan and the entire clan was after her.
@Flatzone, where do you get this idea that Naruto and Sasuke only borrowed Hagoromo's power? They both still have their powers from him.
Obito wasn't really able to fight, he just gave his powers to Kakashi.
Kakashi and Sakura helped land a decisive victory, but Naruto and Sasuke were far from on their last ropes and we don't know if they could have made it to sealing her without them. After all, they still had enough energy and power to fight each other at the end.
Adult Sasuke can now open portals to Kaguya's dimension, which as shown with Obito and Sakura takes massive amounts of chakra (Obito had Hashi cells, Sakura was using her seal with 3 years worth of chakra in it). He couldn't when they fought Kaguya first. That's an indication he's stronger than before.
It's not explicitly stated or shown that they're stronger, but not that they're weaker either. So I can see either way being true. Glad you agree on them being more skilled and having more techs though.
Naruto and Sasuke were already contending with a Ten Tails Jinjuuriki before they got anything from Hagoromo. They had help, but there were parts of that fight where it was just them against Juubito. with Naruto's power, the Konoha 9 broke through Juubito's shield, and with just his and Sasuke's power, they broke the Sword of Nunuboko.
So when they get their power up from Hagoromo, they were already closing in on being able to take on a Ten Tails Jinjuuriki together.
After their power up, they basically forced Madara to run and get his other Rinnegan, and even then he could barely slow them down while he activated Infinite Tsukuyomi.
Also, the fact that Naruto still uses Six Paths Sage Mode basically means he still has Six Paths chakra, so this idea that they lost Hagoromo's chakra seems less plausible to me.
Naruto and Sasuke did in fact seal Kaguya. Kakashi disbaled one arm and one portal. Naruto's deception, Sasuke's teleportation, and Sakura's cover handled the rest.
I never said they lost Six Paths chakra period, I said they lost Hagoromo's chakra which was obviously more quantiful and powerful, for example Madara had Six Paths Chakra before he even became a TTJ and he was clearly not on Rinnegan Sasuke or SPSM Naruto's level meaning that each users Six Paths Chakra is not the same quantity or strength. Also Sasuke not being able to travel dimensions in the 4th War is simple, he didn't know he could and didn't have use of the tech yet. Also Obito was nearly dead the entire time, so him needing Sakura's help would be obvious as he was low on chakra to begin with.
@Flatzone Madara's case was a little different, as the only reason he had six paths chakra before becoming a TTJ was because he took a bit of flesh from Hashi and their transmigrant chakra mixed. Obviously he wouldn't be on the same level.
I still don't see any indication that Naruto and Sasuke have less power than they did.
Yes but considering Obito said that Naruto's clone wouldn't be enough, travelling dimensions require ridiculous amounts of chakra, since Naruto only had one or two clones out at the time (meaning that clone had approximately 33%-50% of his total chakra).
And considering he could barely use his teleportation tech more than like 4-6 times before needing to recharge before, I'd say travelling to Kaguya's dimensions is a step up in power.
Yeah, there is nothing indicating Sasuke couldn't dimension travel in end of 4th War, he just didn't know he could otherwise he would have when Kaguya warped him away. I think at the very most Naruto and Sasuke have made it BACK to the level of strength they had in the 4th War, along with having more skill and techniques, as growing from a teen to an adult will make you stronger anyway even if you did lose some chakra that wasn't yours to begin with. So the way I see it is SPSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke from 4th War = their adult selves in Power thanks to Hagoromo's chakra they had at the time. They lose the chakra that he let them borrow and they get weaker.. years go by and they naturally get stronger and now are back to the level of power from the 4th War with the addition on more techs and better skill. Because if they as Adults were as powerful as fans want them to be then Shin Uchiha for one example would not have been able to do to them what he did and they wouldn't have needed each other to beat Momoshiki and Kinshiki. None of them have shown Hagoromo level feats on their own, they only managed to replicate ANY of his feats together. At the very most Naruto and Sasuke are each half as strong as Hagoromo presently.
Sasuke hadn't yet developed the technique to travel to other dimensions during the war, obviously. It doesn't come standard with the Rinnegan so obviously he didn't have the technique and definitely didnt have time nor need for it during the war. You can't just assume he had it but never used it when the Rinnegan doesn't have it be default and he had no reason to even use such a technique.
@Asian Reaper This is where you're underestimating EMS Sasuke and Kyuubi-Link Naruto. You might forget that EMS Sasuke can still do greatly powerful moves like the Amaterasu with his left eye and the Kagutsuchi. He can also do the Susanoo. And not to forget to mention, he can now use the EMS for very long periods of time without exhaustion. Kyuubi Link Naruto has basically everything the Kyuubi has, Tailed Beast Balls, barrels of chakra, power of the Ten-Tails etc.. Of course they could keep up with Juubito, and let's not forget to mention, Juubito lost his mind when he sealed the Ten-Tails inside of him, potentially affecting his intelligence in battle. They're not the only ones that attacked him either. Let's not forget Minato did too (with the Kyuubi chakra of course).
The rest mentioned is bupkis to Kaguya vs Momoshiki. But I'll answer anyway.
Madara would have definitely not been forced to run by them, if it were for that Might Guy, who ripped half his body during the fight. With Team 7's consistency in cooperation and the other Kages, Madara could see himself in the future to lose. He just took precautions, that was all.
Only fools say they lost the chakra. When did the show even mention that they lost the chakra? Just because they don't use it anymore doesn't mean they lost it. It's just that they don't need it. It's like saying that just because the Toad Sages are gone in Boruto means they died, which they did not.
The way Kaguya was sealed is not important. There is a lot of proof in the series why there are people like Urashiki and Momoshiki have done nothing but brag that they are stronger than Kaguya. But Kaguya is the tyrannical, but legendary queen of chakra. She's almost omnipotent. Naruto has the tailed-beast's chakra? She does too. Sasuke, the Sharingan? She too. Sasuke can switch dimensions? She too, only she has like hundreds of years of more experience than Sasuke does.
So in the end, I totally disagree on those who are saying Momoshiki, Toneri or other stock Otsutsukis who were defamed in the franchise are stronger than Kaguya. They all say Kaguya was a disgrace to the Otsutsuki clan, but in the end, she's the only one who proved to be the most useful one. And that's not all, Kaguya's true powers were merely shown in the manga or anime, which is why she sucks in Ninja Storm and Jump Force. I can only hope she returns in Boruto to crush the people that deserved it, and that she can finally conclude this argument of "Momoshiki vs Kaguya", and I don't expect her to lose at all, given that her sons (and maybe grandsons) were stronger than the current Sasuke and Naruto, because her grandsons are the father of their clans. Indra the Uchiha, and Asura the Senju/Uzumaki.
@RandomAir BGM No I'm not underestimating Naruto and Sasuke. The opposite in fact. I was explaining to you that Naruto and Sasuke upon gettin Hagoromo chakra does not only equal 1 Hagoromo and a hint of chakra more. Because Hagoromo and Hamura also fought the Ten Tails, and they fought for a long time but beat it. But the fight lasted so long, so you know that they struggled for it. Naruto and Sasuke also fought Juubito, a Jinjuuriki of the Ten Tails. I'm saying that they're more formidable than you originally gave them credit.
I mean, if Naruto and Sasuke were able to fight about on Juubito's level together, and Kaguya (who is the Ten Tails) was about on par with Hagoromo and Hamura, Naruto and Sasuke are very powerful and while Hagoromo added immensely to their power, their own original power is not only a hint stronger.
Minato landed no hits on Obito and almost died when he went to attack him. Minato, even with Kyuubi, wasn't at that level (probably due to lack of SM sensing).
Madara ran from them after absorbing the entire Shinju tree and completely healing.
I was referring to @Flatzone, who is of the opinion they lost their chakra. Don't call people fools for believing something about a series; if it's not explicitly stated then any interpretation is fair game. That's why there's discussions.
@AsianReaper So this is basically saying the same thing again. Hagoromo and Hamura fought a complete Ten-Tails. Their was no leftovers of tailed-beast chakra in other jinchurikis, nothing. It was complete. This is why it was so powerful. But you forgot to mention that Hagoromo was the first Ten-Tails Jinchuriki, not Obito. But then, Hagoromo split its chakra into 9 separate Tailed-Beasts, creating what we call the Tailed-Beasts.
Yes, Sasuke and Naruto fought the Ten-Tails, but leftovers of the Hachibi and Kyuubi remained. And not to forget to mention that Kaguya invented the Ten-Tails for the purpose to reclaim the chakra that "belonged to her". It was not for fighting. So of course it got defeated. I mean, the other tails would have made a better jinchuriki.
Hint is an overstatement. I'm not overestimating Kaguya's sons. But it'll take a lot more than what they have to be equal to the league of their sons.
Yes, he got defeated, but he fought no?
So what? Don't forget about Hashirama and the others too. He thought about them fighting him, and maybe predicted the teamwork of them and Team 7 would be far too much for him.
It's okay, but they should pay more attention to the anime.
@RandomAir BGM Yes Naruto and Sasuke fought a weaker Ten Tails but it's still a Ten Tails, and this was when they were 17.
I didn't forget to mention that Hagoromo was the first Jinjuuriki of the Ten Tails. It wasn't relevant, since he fought Kaguya before he was Jinjuuriki so his feats with the Ten Tails are irrelevant.
If they can fight any sort of Ten Tails together (and for portions of the fight it was only them fighting) and overpower its constructs, that means they aren't ridiculously weaker than Hagoromo. They most certainly are weaker and if they fought Hagoromo at that time they'd definitely lose, but they were at a point in their abilities where they could actually fight him.
"Fought" is an overstatement. He couldn't trade blows with Juubito like Naruto and Sasuke were doing.
Hashirama was pinned down, Tobirama was pinned down, I don't know if Hiruzen had regenerated yet but he was also occupied with Tobi, Minato had no arms. and had teleported away by that time. So no, he ran from Naruto and Sasuke, since Sakura showed that she couldn't do anything to him due to Limbo and Kakashi simply didn't have the firepower to pose a threat to a Ten Tails Jinjuuriki.
@Asian Reaper I could possibly take over 30 replies answering your discussions. But this entire Naruto and Sasuke and Hagoromo Hamura comparison is not revelant to the question of this thread at all. Questions as to how Naruto and Sasuke got stronger in Boruto, might linger. We're just saying they got stronger. But how? Training? Missions? Fights? It's unexplained. So someone can say they even got weaker in Boruto. There's only one thing that can prove Naruto became stronger than his Shippuden self: The Last. But people still say that the Boruto era Naruto is stronger than the Last Naruto. But why? You can assume the answer.
I can't reiterate how important it is to know the logic behind Kaguya and her family. Kaguya was a forced creation in the Naruto universe. She was potentially underdeveloped in the series, which is why I already said she should return in Boruto, not only to show her true power and end threads like this, but to give her more character development. Like they should make Kawaki die like Madara, and put Kaguya as Boruto's final antagonist, like in Naruto: Shippuden.
So instead of explaining to me how strong Naruto and Sasuke from Shippuden are, why not give me your final conclusion of "Momoshiki vs Kaguya"? And your explanations?
@RandomAir BGM You realize that I'm explaining Naruto and Sasuke's strength because you yourself used them as a way to gauge how powerful Kaguya is and how powerful Momshiki is? You did it from your very first post. The error is that you assumed that Naruto and Sasuke couldn't defeat Kaguya on their own before so now they must not be able to as adults. And you used this assumption to say that since Naruto and Sasuke beat Momshiki, Momshiki is weaker than Kaguya.
But that's an error because you're assuming neither Sasuke nor Naruto grew in power at all. Even in the Last, Naruto could create, throw, and guide a Rasenshuriken with one hand, in BASE. No Sage Mode, no SPSM, no cloak, no anything. That alone implies his power and skill grew tremendously.So his other power ups make him stronger than before because those power ups are powering up a higher base version of him.
Also, Sasuke has been out on a mission for the majority of the aftermath of the war. He's gone for years at a time on missions. And yet he still is considered Naruto's equal, not higher. So Naruto is growing in power as well, whatever that method may be. In fact, in Boruto EP 65 it's implied that they've sparred more, since Naruto mentions that they have a running tally of their bouts.
Now why is this important and why shouldn't we ignore the fact that A) they aren't as weak as you imply before their Six Paths power up and B) They grew in power from Shippuden to Boruto?
Because your argument is that Naruto and Sasuke couldn't beat Kaguya, but could beat Momshiki. But they were much stronger against Momshiki so that kind of logic is incorrect.
I'm not going to touch on the fact that you want Kaguya as the final antagonist again. Let's just say I disagree and leave it at that.
@AsianReaper I only wanted to use Naruto and Sasuke as an unimportant back-up to my answer. But you made misinterpretations with my details and turned them into a big thing. So putting it politely, you started this. Like, you misinterpretated it when I was questioning the way Sasuke and Naruto grew stronger in Boruto. Read my replies carefully next time. With deepest regret, I don't have time to explain and try to specify what I say.
You disagree? Great! But to put it briefly, the least you can do now is actually explain why. And since Momoshiki lost to Naruto and Sasuke, I think including them would be unnecessary in your explanation. Give back-up to the experience, omnipotence, and legend that Momoshiki lacks.
And by the way, I'm not a crazy Kaguya fan. In fact, I like Momoshiki better than her, he has more redeeming qualities. But it's the way they depict her in the real thing that has got people into this.
RandomAir BGM wrote:
The main reason why Kaguya is stronger than Momoshiki, is because Sasuke and Naruto, who both have half the power of Hagoromo, fought Momoshiki (with Kinshiki) and clearly battered him.
Because your argument is that Naruto and Sasuke couldn't beat Kaguya, but could beat Momshiki. But they were much stronger against Momshiki so that kind of logic is incorrect.
That's not quite the answer I am looking for. Don't use my answers to answer my questions. You'll have to give me more proof and reason why you think Momoshiki is stronger than Kaguya. You don't know how much I'd like to know why. That would really answer a lot of questions.
And by the way, my next post will be my last. So I hope that we are okay after we finish these discussions okay?
I didn't use your answer to answer your question, I was pointing out that it wasn't unimportant back up like you claimed, it was what your argument hinged upon.
I never even said Momshiki was stronger. I was pointing out that the way you were justifying that Kaguya was stronger didn't add up. Your evidence isn't really evidence, since you're using 2 different versions of Naruto and Sasuke as the same measuring stick for Kaguya and Momshiki.
The reason I pointed these flaws out wasn't because I'm dead set on Momshiki being stronger. I'm trying to see if you have an argument that makes more sense than the one you presented.
Too bad though, seems you don't. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise though.
Why didn't you ask in the first place then? I didn't expect to be taking it this far to explain. But before I finish, I have to.
You see, I don't need those 2 to explain why Kaguya is stronger. In fact, it it obvious.
Kaguya has immortality; Momoshiki doesn't.
Kaguya has paralysis jutsu to absorb chakra; Momoshiki over-relied on absorbing chakra and sending it back, which led to his downfall like Hiruko from the Will of Fire movie.
Kaguya has Kimimaro's bone kekkei genkai. She can manipulate her bones to attack, and uses the Ash Bone Killer to instantly kill her opponent; Momoshiki doesn't.
Kaguya has the most powerful Kekkei Mora ever, she has the Vacuum fists to destroy Jinchuriki chakra arms and Susanoo bodies; Momoshiki had to use his dojutsu and Taijutsu to fight, and Taijutsu was never a good idea with Naruto, who has the Kyuubi to catch you, and Sasuke, who's eyes can see your every move.
Kaguya has everything Momoshiki has; Byakugan, Rinne Sharingan, Transformation, and Ninjutsu Mastery. Except that she is far more experienced in all of this.
Kaguya can use all her victims and prisoners' chakra to create planetary-level destruction, like she used the victims trapped in her Deep Forest Emergence to create the Expansive Truthseeker Orb. All Momoshiki can do is absorb other's chakra with his hands' Rinnegan.
So in the end, these are other reasons why Kaguya is stronger than Momoshiki. And I think these should suffice. If they don't then tell me why.
@RandomAir BGM I pointed out that the main point to your original argument was flawed, and you didn't take that as either fix/explain the current argument or present a valid one? I had to specifically ask that? Okay, I'll be more specific next time.
Immortality doesn't really imply strength. If they took one Tailed Beast, her chakra wouldn't be able to form. Since all the Tailed Beasts are free now and separate, she's effectively dead right now.
She has paralysis jutsu and ability to absorb chakra. She used the paralysis jutsu once and then over relied on dimension hopping and her bone attack.
Momoshiki did rely on his absorbtion, but he didn't let it handicap him. In fact, Momshiki fought Naruto and Sasuke largely without absorbtion and he still was able to wound Sasuke, break out of Chibaku Tensei, and force Naruto and Sasuke to combine their Susanoo and Kurama Avatar in order to beat him. Even after that, Naruto acknowledged that he wasn't done yet. Plus even before he absorbed jutsu from the one guy who developed Kote, he still had more chakra pills.
And keep in mind that if it was only Naruto, Sasuke, and the 5 Kage who fought Momshiki, they almost lost. They were lucky that Boruto was on the sidelines not participating until they all were nearly done for.
Also, Kaguya doesn't have Kimimaro's bone Kekkei Genkai. If anything it's the other way around. Besides, considering Momshiki's firepower, he has pretty good oneshots as well.
Kaguya's Expansive Truth Seeker Orb was only ever seen attempted in one of her own dimensions, and we don't know how big that dimension was. Kakashi only noted that if they used Kamui to escape, they couldn't come back. My guess is the reason they wouldn't just leave her there is because she had to be sealed so they could undo Infinite Tsukuyomi and also so the Tailed Beasts would be free.
Momshiki's golem was enough to completely overpower Kurama, so it most likely was strong enough to completely overpower Susanoo as well. And again, he used Taijutsu to fight them but he also used other techs to eventually wound Sasuke, forcing Naruto to bring out his Kurama Avatar, which was promptly overpowered by Momshiki's golem.
Honestly considering we've never seen a limit to Momshiki's ability to absorb Ninjutsu, her Ash Killing Bone wan probably be absorbed. An argument can even be made for him absorbing the Expansive Truth Seeker Orb. And once he's done that, he can just fire it back; you forget he doesn't just absorb. He fires back at more strength than the original technique.