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  • I've seen both sides argued, and personally I think Pain would beat Itachi low-mid difficulty, but I just wanna see what you guys think about this MU.

    Also for the sake of clarity, I don't think Itachi would figure out Pain's secret by himself, since Jiraiya only found it out himself because he had met all of the Pain bodies when they were alive, with Yahiko's corpse triggering his realisation in the first place. But for the sake of argument, I'd wanna see how you guys think Itachi would fare against Pain without knowledge, and against Pain with knowledge.

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    • Frisbo
      Frisbo removed this reply because:
      I changed my mind
      21:36, September 29, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • in pains favour (tendo pain). he almighty pushes the shit out of itachi even with susanoo spammed and weakens him and slows him down with those black rods he can spam

      in itachi's favour. I have nothing to say. Tsukuyomi is not powerful VS the rinnegan. because if even the infinite Tsukuyomi is powerless (sort of) vs it then...

      Itachi is one of my top five favorite characters in the series. A sage among the Uchiha (in terms of knowledge) but winning VS pain won't be easy or slightly even possible for him. He is very smart, but still.

      Tbh. Naruto only won against pain (specifically after being pinned down) because of the nine tails chakra. "Rage summons him forth" - Pein. Thank God his persistence rubbed off on hinata.

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    • Pain wins, the only reason Pain was defeated was because Jiraiya recognized one of the bodies. Itachi is the most talented Uchiha after Madara, even Obito said he would have died if Itachi had more info on him. Even with a cheat skill like the sharingan, Pain still wins. I think I'm pretty unbiased here since I don't like them.

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    • itachi's genius is his strongest weapon. then comes his skill and talent

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    • Uhm, Pain, duh? I mean at least if we are talking in terms of the same six on one battle that Naruto had with him.

      It is like a battle of Visual Prowess. Sure, Itachi's Sharingan cannot be understimated by just about anyone but we are talking about all six abilities of the Rinnegan including gravitational attraction/repulsion, summoning multiple beasts, absrobing Ninjutsu, morphing your body into weapons and armor etc.

      Itachi's Susano'o and Amaterasu can likely do damage at first but the black flames can be absorbed by one of Pain's bodies and even if the others can't, the Pain that can summon the King of Hell can still heal any of them completely. So Itachi's only chance is Genjutsu but I am not sure how that would work since he probably won't be able to use it on all of them at once.

      And finally, the Pain using Yahiko's body was able to single-handedly withstand the power of the Nine-Tails inside Naruto. That was likely because the other five were beaten but it still counts as he is objectively the hardest to put down. So Itachi will be able to defeat a few of them but definitely not all.

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    • @Stoyan. Since their field of vision is linked, Tsukuyomi would work (looking at one would affect all) but would be countered by nagato himself because of the rinnegan.

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    • Itachi wins with low to non-existent difficulty.

      He would look like the underdog throughout the whole fight but then with his God-like intellect, he would figure out Pain's split into seven bodies and whip out his new jutsu called "Pain Real Body Detection" jutsu which would enable him to find Nagato and do him in with either Yasaka Magatama or Totsuka Blade. Don't even know why you plebs make such threads when we all know Godtachi solos the Naruverse with his standard Sharingan.

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    • Mr. Grave wrote: Itachi wins with low to non-existent difficulty.

      He would look like the underdog throughout the whole fight but then with his God-like intellect, he would figure out Pain's split into sevem bodies and whip out his new jutsu called "Pain Real Body Detection" jutsu which would enable him to find Nagato and do him in with either Yasaka Magatama or Totsuka Blade. Don't even know why you plebs make such threads when we all know Godtachi solos the Naruverse with his standard Sharingan.

      Lol been awhile. Missed you in the forums (It's AsianReaper btw, name change).

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    • If Itachi has full Eyesight and no sickness and is not hindered by plot driven nonsense then with his skill and intelligence he will figure out the 6 Paths quickly. The end of the fight depends on how much chakra Itachi has left, if he is too low he loses. So this is a fight where I would say 6 out 10 goes to 6PoP.

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    • FlatZone wrote: If Itachi has full Eyesight and no sickness and is not hindered by plot driven nonsense then with his skill and intelligence he will figure out the 6 Paths quickly. The end of the fight depends on how much chakra Itachi has left, if he is too low he loses. So this is a fight where I would say 6 out 10 goes to 6PoP.

      If Itachi has full eyesight that means he isn't a master with his MS techniques yet, since he'd never have used them.

      How exactly would Itachi figure out the 6 Paths of Pain? Jiariya found out because they were corpses of those that he knew. How would Itachi figure it out?

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    • What's this pain secret? The fact tha the bodies are dead and he is in another location?

      Is that important to discover it? He just needs to figure out what abilityes each pain has so he can try and counter them (easy to say, seemigly impossible to do)

      So Itachi discover the secret, and then what? Gets himself hammered in the rocks by a shinra tensei? The most broken justu of hitachi is the tsukuyomi but he can't use it on the rinnegan, nagato can just give the deva path to all the pains and spam chibaku tensei

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    • Itachi has Sharingan and could see the chakra being transmitted to the Black Rods. He would see they are being controlled. Itachi is far sharper and more cunning than most of anybody else that we've seen. Only Minato has shown similar feats of cunning and intelligence

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    • To be fair, any Sharingan user could see chakra being transmitted to the rods, lol. Not really a feat of cunningness for Itachi.

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    • Did Kakashi see chakra being transmitted through the rods? He had the Sharingan, and while not on Itachi's level with it, he was an expert with it.

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    • @Squinty You make a good point. IF Kakashi couldn't see it and his Sharingan is the same as a UChiha's but uses more chakra, I don't see how ITachi would be able to see the chakra being transmitted either.

      Basically, because Kakashi didn't see chakra being transmitted, neither would Itachi, and there's nothing to prove he would be able to see it since Kakashi didn't.

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    • Lmfaoooo @Squinty, plot hole? But seriously that is another contradiction in the series. They tell us and show us that the sharingan sees chakra in color. As with sasuke vs deidara and Kakashi using the sharingan to see the chakra flow of Lee's 8 gates vs Gaara in the chunin exams. But now vs pain he didn't see chakra flowing to the rods that aided in controlling the pains. It's not even contradiction it's forgetfulness tbh.

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    • Sharingan is not the Byakugan, it can see chakra but the Byakugan is much better at this so if a Hyuga cant see it an Uchiha wont either.

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    • In the naruto word teletrasportation is a thing, maybe the chakra gets teleported to the receptors like a summoning jutsu, still naruto could track down nagato by piercing his hand with one receptor, maybe chakra has some sort of momentum that gets conserved when is teleported so naruto can figure out where pain is by feeling the pressure of the relased chakra?

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    • @Squinty Yo! It has been a while indeed. And yes, I still recognize you from your profile picture.

      As for the outcome of this matchup, I think it's futile to focus on the intricacies of the Sharingan. The Sharingan is janky as fuck. At some point, Sasuke is able to perceive nano-sized bombs with his standard Sharingan. That would mean that Sasuke zoomed in on those impercetible bombs which is a feat that the Sharingan doesn't possess.

      Also, even if Itachi figured out the secret behind Pain and even if he managed to find Nagato's hiding spot somehow, do you guys actually think he would be able to dispatch all six bodies by himself? He has NOTHING on them. Amaterasu was repelled by Deva Path and can be absorbed by Preta. Rinnegan was shown to be immune to Tsukuyomi or any other visual genjutsu. Chibaku Tensei was shown to be a good answer to the Susanoo. Not to mention Pain's chakra dwarfs that of Itachi.

      Itachi can't win this, not because he's weak but because he's badly matched.

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    • Just thought I’d mention, when Hinata fought against Deva, she didn’t see any chakra threads either. I know she isn’t one of the most proficient Hyuga, but her inability to detect it shuts down Itachi’s supposed ability to.

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    • Idk its kind of inconsistent. The the Yamanaka's were able to sense the chakra but they couldn't follow it with sensing because Nagato kept changing his chakra frequency(his signature too??). Naruto used one of the black rods to trace it back to the source using Sage Mode's sensing. What they are sensing is the chakra, Hinata and Itachi not being able to trace it is inconsistent with the Byakugan and Sharingan's abilities. It's just another plot oversight. Since there is no plot Itachi should easily be able to trace it.

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    • Forget shit no jutsu @ ^ and ^^

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    • Itachi's best shot's is hoping that Tsukuyomi would work on Nagato through Pein, but for that to be likely to happen, Itachi has to find out Pain's secret. Beyond that he would have to rely on Amaterasu and instantly burn a couple bodies to nothingness with Amaterasu, just like he instantly burned a fire resistant toad's throat to nothingness.

      With that, Itachi could put up a decent fight against Pein.

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    • Itachi could make Amaterasu have instantaneous burn power, but just like that time it will take more chakra compared to the normal usage of Amaterasu. He was most likely sick at the time and used two full power Tsukuyomi's and one full power Amaterasu and he had to shut his Sharingan off so using the full force of each tech while sick will be an issue. But if Itachi isn't sick here then he can use them more most likely. If one of the paths is hit with the Full Force Amaterasu then that path is done.

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    • Does Itachi have explosive tags in this fight? If he does this fight becomes a lot easier. It's unlikely that Preta path can absorb the explosion from an explosive tag, because Nagato wasn't able to absorb Hanzo's explosive jutsu. Also, I don't think the explosion are literally composed of chakra in the case of explosive tags or in the case of Itachi's great clone explosion, the explosion is just caused by chakra.

      So if he doesn't have explosive tags great clone explosion may be a viable option. There's always Deva path, but Deva probably can't blow away explosions, because they are instant.

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    • @Flatzone, Sage Mode Sensing is the most powerful type of sensing in the series, so I'm pretty sure Naruto sensing Nagato was meant to give a feat to Sage Mode and not an inconsistency.

      And whether or not it seems like it makes sense or not, Hinata and Kakashi both couldn't tell they were tethered by chakra with the Black Receivers. So it must be a property of the Six Paths Technique, to be invisible to dojutsu.

      Also, I didn't see any indication at all that Itachi was sick at the time he returned to Konoha.

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    • Novels say he became sick after awakening his MS but before Konoha Crush and for years used medicine to fight the illness so that one day Sasuke could be the one to finish him off. It just got much worse around the actual time of the Naruto series, with him being pretty much nearly dead by the time he fought Sasuke.

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    • Are we considering the novels canon in this debate?

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    • Are we not considering anything outside the manga and anime? was that specified for this?? Also where is it directly conflicted in the manga/anime saying that he was NOT sick at the Konoha Crush? The novels added that information and nothing contradicted it in any way.

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    • In almost every debate I've seen in these forums, It's usually the manga, then the anime if it doesn't contradict the manga, and then somewhat the databooks, but not relying on those too much for obvious reasons.

      I don't see too much mention of novel only stuff, especially since there's some odd feats in there.

      Didn't Itachi kill his lady with Tsukuyomi in the novels? Yet Itachi didn't think to use that ability ever anywhere else, and the anime implies there was only one clan capable who had a member every few generations who could kill with Genjutsu? I mean, Itachi could have used it on Danzo, he could have used it on Obito, etc.

      Also, apparently in the novels, Kakashi's purple lightning can summon rainclouds when shot into the sky. That seems ridiculously powerful and a little outside the realm of Kakashi's reserves, if I'm being honest. And Kakashi is absolutely my favourite character.

      Novels seem kind of dubious at best in terms of feats, so I don't usually see them used as a sources. But that's why I asked if we're using them here lol

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    • Plot would be the only reason Itachi never killed somebody with Tsukuyomi in the manga and anime, that and the fact it left him super exhausted when he used it at the level of power in the novel. Kakashi's raincloud feat isn't that far fetched at all, he is still a Kage level fighter.. and nobody knew Itachi killed somebody with Tsukuyomi even in the novel so using that anime reference for it is kind of moot as nothing actually contradicts it there.

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    • @Squinty97 Did the novel say anything about Itachi being able to kill MS users with Tsukuyomi? It would be kind of interesting if it did.

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    • He killed a 3 tomoe Sharingan user with it, it never said he could or couldn't kill another MS user with it though. Also the victims brain literally shut down and died from it, he made her experience literally 80 years in the span of a second. He also used Tsukuyomi on the bugs of an Aburame host, which is impressive considering how many bugs there were and how small they are.

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    • FlatZone wrote: He killed a 3 tomoe Sharingan user with it, it never said he could or couldn't kill another MS user with it though. Also the victims brain literally shut down and died from it, he made her experience literally 80 years in the span of a second. He also used Tsukuyomi on the bugs of an Aburame host, which is impressive considering how many bugs there were and how small they are.

      Just to be certain, was it was mentioned she had her sharingan on?

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    • It wasn't mentioned either way, but to fight Genjutsu an Uchiha would use the Sharingan.

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    • @Flatzone plot? Is that all you got when a character doesn't show an ability you want him to have?

      Itachi has never shown that ability when it would've been beneficial for him to use, and the technique is novel only despite the Uchiha massacre being featured in the actual manga and anime. So no, it's very doubtful that Itachi is actually able to use Tsukuyomi to that extreme. And shrewd as he was, he wouldn't spend such a massive chunk of his chakra to kill one person when he had half the clan to kill.

      Kakashi is Kage level, but he isn't Kage level because he's some powerhouse. He's shrewd, cunning, extremely skilled and thinks fast. But he only has a few powerful techniques, and his most powerful for a long time was Raikiri. A jump from Raikiri to Lightning on a level that summons rainclouds is kind huge.

      @MadEyes008 The novel didn't mention anything about that

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    • @Squinty97 why would changing the length of Tsukuyomi matter if, Tobi could just break out of it regardless?

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    • No, plot was set that Itachi wouldn't kill somebody with that and he didn't. Plot was that he would only put Kakashi and Sasuke into comas. It literally is because of plot. Literally nothing contradicts his novel feat. Kakashi had less chakra and experience when he still had his Sharingan, as the current Kage he has more chakra and more experience along with Purple Lightning which he has already shown variations of, again nothing contradicts Kakashi using his Purple Lightning that way and nothing said he couldn't. So yes, when serious and in a life or death battle that is not plot driven, Itachi can his best Tsukuyomi feat(80 years in 1 second) and his best Amaterasu feat(instantaneous disintegration of a fire breathing toads stomach) mind you each feat is more chakra taxing than when he used the lesser feat versions. But he can use them, you just don't WANT him to have them and that isn't a good argument. Kakashi also does have the lightning cloud feat because nothing says he can't and nothing contradicts in in the anime/manga.

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    • @MadEyes it depends tbh. For example, assuming Obito has the skill to break out, how fast can he do it? If Itachi casts Tsukuyomi and changes time to torture Obito for let's say 50 years, let's say Obito breaks out after 30 years of that time. He was still mentally suffering throughout it until he broke out.

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    • Squinty97 wrote: @MadEyes it depends tbh. For example, assuming Obito has the skill to break out, how fast can he do it? If Itachi casts Tsukuyomi and changes time to torture Obito for let's say 50 years, let's say Obito breaks out after 30 years of that time. He was still mentally suffering throughout it until he broke out.

      One guy I was arguing with before said, that Tsukuyomi just gives the victim more time to break out it due to time dilation. No matter how long Tsukuyomi was in the Tsukuyomi world, it can still be broken out before it does colossal damage due to the victim's increase in processing speed.

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    • Pein wins.

      high level difficulty only because Itachi is supposed to be freaking smart and that convo he and Nagato had in their Edo bodies as they made their way towards Naruto indicated that he somewhat knew the secret behind Pein, or more like about Nagato. i dont think he knows about the SIx Path of Pein's power.

      even then he simply does not have the kind of power to defeat Pein.

      his best are MS techniques.

      Amaterasu is no go. Like Pein has multiple options against it. he showed to deflect it with Shinra Tensei. he could absorb it with Preta Path. he can have one Pein take it on and resurrect it with Naraka path (i hope i am right on this one).

      for Tsukuyomi. Rinnegan was the only one which had ability to be unaffect by Infinite Tsukuyomi work. even then, the Pein bodies are corpses. they work in a way like a mixture of Kabuto's dead body jutsu he used in part1 in the hospital when he came to kill Sasuke and Shadow clone jutsu, but on a far superior level. now Genjutsu certainly should not work on dead, but it is kind of contradictory in regard to clones. it didnt work on Kakashi clone, but the Naruto that met Itachi when he got Shisui's eye had to be a clone. even then if it somehow does work, i can think that Rinnegan can break through it as Rinnegan is far stronger than Sharingan or MS.

      Oh, on the above discusiions of Tsukuyomi time period. dont forget that putting Kakashi for 3 days in the jutsu heavily taxed on Itachi ande even then Kakashi was still not knocked unconscious. so for someone like Pein with Rinnegan and dead bodies and Uzumaki lineage he would have to go for many days to even kill him. the more days he spent the more Chakra he has to extend which time and again is shown is not something he has in abundance. that is why the novel one where he showed his gf 80 odd years just screams bullshit.

      Susanoo. he has to at least have armoured Susanoo. that alone means he has to have used it many times, which makes him go blind faster. even then, Pein can just blast it with Shinra Tensei or have monstrous animals charge on it or simply absorb the strikes by Preta path.

      Then there is Pein's CHibaku tensie. alone Itachi does not have the raw power to destroy it.

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    • @Nashikeine

      Itachi could just burn a body to quickly to for it to be countered. He doesn't have to target Preta or Deva.

      Sasuke's rinnegan being unaffected by Infinite Tsukuyomi, doesn't mean Tsukuyomi wouldn't work. Edo Tensei zombies were also unaffected by Infinite Tsukuyomi, but could be genjutsu'd by Koto.

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    • @Mad. It would work but affect nagato himself as their visions are linked. And would affect the pains to since nagato's controlling them (affect them in a way that they won't momentarily be controlled). But would be dispelled because the rinnegan is above Tsukuyomi.

      Tsukuyomi is only a diversion tactic in this battle.

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    • The Rinnegan has only shown to sharingan powers in special cases, the Rinnegan doesn't appear to have sharingan powers naturally and without it, we don't how resistant it is to MS genjutsu.

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    • Senjutsu Sage wrote: @Mad. It would work but affect nagato himself as their visions are linked. And would affect the pains to since nagato's controlling them (affect them in a way that they won't momentarily be controlled). But would be dispelled because the rinnegan is above Tsukuyomi.

      Tsukuyomi is only a diversion tactic in this battle.

      No, it wouldn't affect Nagato. Tsukuyomi can't travel on the chakra link to Nagato, it only affects those who see it in with their eyes.

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    • @Squinty97

      It might affect Nagato, if he feels what the Pein bodies feel, which seems likely. Nagato can see and hear what the Pein Bodies see and hear.

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    • Rinnegan broke through Infinite Tsukuyomi which is an extremely more potent version of Itachi's Tsukuyomi. So yes, we do know how resistant it is to MS genjutsu since it actually broke through a genjutsu that is far superior to any normal MS.

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    • Mr. Grave wrote: Rinnegan broke through Infinite Tsukuyomi which is an extremely more potent version of Itachi's Tsukuyomi. So yes, we do know how resistant it is to MS genjutsu since it actually broke through a genjutsu that is far superior to any normal MS.

      The only thing Infinite Tsukuyomi has in common with the regular Tsukuyomi is the name.

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    • MadEyes008 wrote: @Squinty97

      It might affect Nagato, if he feels what the Pein bodies feel, which seems likely. Nagato can see and hear what the Pein Bodies see and hear.

      Well I don't think nagato felt kurama smashing yahiko in the ground with a boulder, also tsukuyomi appens in a matter of second, so he'll just see the vision of one of his pains go freky fast and at best he catches an epilectic attack

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    • Was that an anime only scene?

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    • MadEyes008 wrote: Was that an anime only scene?

      You may be rigth, gotta check

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    • He can't feel what they feel. Otherwise when Naruto destroyed the paths Nagato would have died on the first one being destroyed.

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    • FlatZone wrote: He can't feel what they feel. Otherwise when Naruto destroyed the paths Nagato would have died on the first one being destroyed.

      Why do you say that?

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    • It was an anime scene, so we don't actually know if he feels pain, I'd go for a no beacause seems like exagerated, he explained that the vision is linked, but he could've said that the tactile sense / pain was also shared, idk, let's wait for other opinions

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    • Sure, maybe calling it a version of Tsukuyomi is inaccurate since each jutsu has different mechanics. IT is still the more potent genjutsu, though. Probably the most potent genjutsu seen in the series. And the only way you can break through it is via the Rinnegan or if you're an Edo (most likely because Edos don't have life force to suck on). So it would be pointless to bring up Tsukuyomi's time dilation when it's likely he won't get caught on it at all.

      Let me remind you Itachi fought Nagato once and never used Tsukuyomi. You could say Nagato was an Edo and genjutsu doesn't work on them if Itachi hadn't been hit by Kotoamatsukami prior to that. He even went on to get hit by Kabuto's sound genjutsu and Sasuke's standard visual genjutsu.

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    • There's no point in using Tsukuyomi on a Edo Tensei, it wouldn't do anything.

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    • If using a Genjutsu on one Pain affected the other Pains or Nagato, Jiraiya would have won the moment he caught the three Pains in Frog Song

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    • Konan was next to Nagato to free him from Genjutsu, so there is a possibility that she did do that.

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    • Squinty97 wrote: If using a Genjutsu on one Pain affected the other Pains or Nagato, Jiraiya would have won the moment he caught the three Pains in Frog Song

      While I don't think Nagato himself was paralyzed by Gama Rinsho, Tsukuyomi is a different scenario. In the case of Tsukuyomi, it doesn't matter if Nagato himself is in a genjutsu, if he can feel what the Pain bodies can feel from Tsukuyomi.

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    • Pein body only share sensory vision. more so probably because it is essentially Nagato seeing things through the eyes and can communicate with the bodies in real time.

      there is no other link.

      Nagato controls those Pein bodies like puppets by directly using his Chakra through their bodies with the black rods, but because Rinnegan and the power of its Paths is involved those Pein bodies act like real living persons.

      No damage to any Pein body, be it mental or physcial is transmitted to Nagato.

      the only damage he will recieve is when he overexerts his Chakra like he did using Chibaku Tensei.

      It is cannon

      so, no, putting one Pein In Tsukuyomi is not going to KO all Peins and Nagato. and all Pein has to do is revive that body through the Naraka path.

      and healthy or not, Itachi can at best pull out only one Tsukuyomi at most. he simply does not have the Chakra and stamina for more. if he tries for two or more that he is essentially done for.

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    • Nagato also hears what the Pein bodies hear.

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    • He does hear what they hear that is true but again that doesn't mean he feels what they feel and if he does then him being alive after his paths got destroyed is an incredible feat on its own

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    • @Brain

      Nagato's Paths work like real time Kage Bunshin. he gets their memories and all, which includes seeing and hearing and all that, and also comunicate throught them, without feeling their pain.

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    • @Squinty. Dude, their visions are linked. Wtf. Of course nagato would be affected.

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    • Senjutsu Sage wrote: @Squinty. Dude, their visions are linked. Wtf. Of course nagato would be affected.

      Tsukuyomi works by direct eye contact. Itachi would only be able to affect the one he had direct eye contect with. Just because they share their senses, doesn't mean it changes that.

      The fact that nothing beside SM sensing could even trace the chakra back to Nagato means that Tsukuyomi probably won't be able to travel along the chakra to Nagato as well.

      Also there's the fact that we already have evidence of Genjutsu affecting a few Pain but not the rest.

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    • FlatZone wrote: He does hear what they hear that is true but again that doesn't mean he feels what they feel and if he does then him being alive after his paths got destroyed is an incredible feat on its own

      That's true, but he probably feel if he can see and hear through the bodies. We know the senses of the Pain bodies at least work to some extent. He is named Pain after all and he lived with rods in his back for years.

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    • @Squinty. So tendo pain fluidy fought against the four to six tails just because he was receiving chakra from nagato and not that nagato was also seeing or witnessing what was going on. Dude it's basically like direct eye contact but indirectly. It's like your saying if itachi Tsukuyomied gaara's third eye made from sand with his chakra he Gaara himself wouldn't be affected. As if Gaara doesn't see what the third eye sees when he spams it or uses it.

      I'm pretty sure that nagato was affected by that genjutsu. Through pain he talked to Naruto and everything Naruto said he heard as shown when they met. Same with jiraiya but the dif is they never met. The pains are literally extensions of nagato the only senses they don't share are feeling, smell and taste. But it's not like dead bodies needed to eat.

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    • ? Nagato sees and witnesses what the Pains are doing, but it's pretty obvious based on the fact that none of them showed any Pain that Nagato isn't feeling Pain.

      Also, if Nagato was affected by Frog Song then he'd be unable to control the other Pains, so no he wasn't affected by it. Only the Pain bodies were.

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    • "? Nagato sees and witnesses what the Pains are doing, but it's pretty obvious based on the fact that none of them showed any Pain that Nagato isn't feeling Pain."

      Yes, 'The pains are literally extensions of nagato the only senses they don't share are feeling, smell and taste. But it's not like dead bodies needed to eat."

      "Also, if Nagato was affected by Frog Song then he'd be unable to control the other Pains, so no he wasn't affected by it. Only the Pain bodies were."

      It's either this. The rinnegan is a shield vs the most powerful genjutsu ever that no other genjutsu can compare to. With that said. He probably dispelled it. Or, after a while it wore off as the frogs stopped singing but the effect of taking down the said pains physically still remained or as one user said konan snapped him out of it.

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    • If Nagato doesn't feel pain then it doesn't matter if his Pain bodies get hit with Tsukuyomi because it won't affect him. And in order to affect Nagato himself, Itachi would need direct eye contact, as that's a requirement to use Tsukuyomi.

      How would the effect wear off for Nagato but not for his Pains?

      If it were so easy for Nagato to dispel the Genjutsu, Nagato could just dispel it off of his Pains without needing to get the others there.

      It's possible Konan snapped him out of it, but there's no evidence to say if she did or didn't. So I don't really have an argument here, it's just possible she did.

      Also I missed this point from your previous post, but you really just said "it's like direct eye contact indirectly." That's called an oxymoron

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    • I'm sure Konan did snap him out of it. All the paths are linked. So I think when the paths were all stopped by toad song, afterwards Konan was finally able to snap the Genjutsu by the time Jiraiya finished stabbing the paths with those stone swords. but I digress Itachi never once attempted Genjutsu on Nagato himself, though again that could just be plot stupidity or plot waste.

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    • Do we even know if Konan was with Nagato at the time? Couldn't she have been out on a mission? There's just too many unknowns with saying Konan broke him out. She might have, but she might not have. Not enough evidence either way.

      Itachi never attempted Genjutsu on Nagato most likely because using Visual Genjutsu to a Rinnegan would most likely be useless.

      That or the fact that Tsukuyomi wouldn't do anything, since being an Edo brings the Edo back to full capacity before long, and Tsukuyomi only lasts an instant in real time so it's not much of an advantage.

      In any case, it's made very clear that the Sharingan needs direct eye contact to the victim to activate. The Sharingan needs to see the victim's eye, which makes sense since the Sharingan is where the jutsu is coming from so it needs a path to the victim. So I don't think Nagato is affected by the Genjutsu used on his Pain bodies.

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    • She was with him, she was sent back to the tower when Pain took over vs Jiraiya.

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    • Again, even though she was there, there's little to no evidence that she broke him out. Just like there's little to no evidence that she didn't break him out. There's not enough there to make a reliable guess which direction it went.

      So if we can't really make a probable guess on that, then the point about Frog Song can just be crossed out of the argument since there's a factor that's just unknown.

      Either way, my other points still stand.

      FlatZone wrote: No, plot was set that Itachi wouldn't kill somebody with that and he didn't. Plot was that he would only put Kakashi and Sasuke into comas. It literally is because of plot. Literally nothing contradicts his novel feat. Kakashi had less chakra and experience when he still had his Sharingan, as the current Kage he has more chakra and more experience along with Purple Lightning which he has already shown variations of, again nothing contradicts Kakashi using his Purple Lightning that way and nothing said he couldn't. So yes, when serious and in a life or death battle that is not plot driven, Itachi can his best Tsukuyomi feat(80 years in 1 second) and his best Amaterasu feat(instantaneous disintegration of a fire breathing toads stomach) mind you each feat is more chakra taxing than when he used the lesser feat versions. But he can use them, you just don't WANT him to have them and that isn't a good argument. Kakashi also does have the lightning cloud feat because nothing says he can't and nothing contradicts in in the anime/manga.

      Whoa I just noticed this reply.

      No, saying "plot" isn't a good argument when you're arguing for a feat that's outside canon, even though that feat had several chances to be shown in canon (or even in an anime filler) but was never shown. Itachi had several other chances when it'd be beneficial as well, but never used Tsukuyomi to that extent.

      And if it taxes Itachi that much to even do a regular Tsukuyomi, he wouldn't take even more chakra than that to take one person out when he still had half his clan to kill.

      The fact that the Toad breathed fire doesn't make the feat more impressive since Amaterasu burns anything regardless of what it is.

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    • Madara wins.

      But fr tho, I believe Pain wins because of the complexity of the rinnegan's abilities, and strength in numbers. The deva path could end it all using Chibaku or ripping Itachi's soul out using bansho tenei then the human path. I also believe it was said that the only reason Naruto and Jiraiya won, was because they knew Nagato was controlling all of them. But wouldn't that also bring into question that Itachi could have very well figured it out as well. Isn't the Sharingan able to see Chakra, which would mean that he would be able to see the chakra coming from the rods.

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    • YD.Ann wrote: Madara wins.

      But fr tho, I believe Pain wins because of the complexity of the rinnegan's abilities. I believe it was said that the only reason Naruto and Jiraiya won, was because they knew Nagato was controlling all of them. But wouldn't that also bring into question that Itachi could have very well figured it out as well. Isn't the Sharingan able to see Chakra, which would mean that he would be able to see the chakra coming from the rods.

      The Sharingan and Byakugan could not see the chakra coming from the rods. Only sensing was able to even try to trace the chakra, and only Sage Mode Sensing could successfully sense all the way to Nagato, but only after Naruto stabbed himself with one.

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    • You know that proves Nagato is not only a master sensor, but that Nagato cannot be sensed(outside of being Sage Mode and stabbing self with one of Nagato's rods). Thats yet another incredible feat for him

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    • Squinty97 wrote:

      YD.Ann wrote: Madara wins.

      But fr tho, I believe Pain wins because of the complexity of the rinnegan's abilities. I believe it was said that the only reason Naruto and Jiraiya won, was because they knew Nagato was controlling all of them. But wouldn't that also bring into question that Itachi could have very well figured it out as well. Isn't the Sharingan able to see Chakra, which would mean that he would be able to see the chakra coming from the rods.

      The Sharingan and Byakugan could not see the chakra coming from the rods. Only sensing was able to even try to trace the chakra, and only Sage Mode Sensing could successfully sense all the way to Nagato, but only after Naruto stabbed himself with one.

      Then that would give Nagato an even greater advantage lol

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    • @Squinty "If Nagato doesn't feel pain then it doesn't matter if his Pain bodies get hit with Tsukuyomi because it won't affect him. And in order to affect Nagato himself, Itachi would need direct eye contact, as that's a requirement to use Tsukuyomi."

      Itachi genjutsued Naruto with his akatsuki ring.

      How would the effect wear off for Nagato but not for his Pains?

      They were taken down dude. When it wore off (which is probably one case of what really happened) nagato spammed the rest pains and used nakara path to bring back the ones that were taken down.

      "If it were so easy for Nagato to dispel the Genjutsu, Nagato could just dispel it off of his Pains without needing to get the others there."

      He could have dispelled it in the moment to but... (So ig this one is out of the 'probability of what happened' equation)

      "It's possible Konan snapped him out of it, but there's no evidence to say if she did or didn't. So I don't really have an argument here, it's just possible she did."

      Probability in truth.

      "Also I missed this point from your previous post, but you really just said "it's like direct eye contact indirectly." That's called an oxymoron"

      Lool

      "The Sharingan and Byakugan could not see the chakra coming from the rods. Only sensing was able to even try to trace the chakra, and only Sage Mode Sensing could successfully sense all the way to Nagato, but only after Naruto stabbed himself with one."

      They should have been able to see it tbh.

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    • @Sage

      about the paths taken out by Genjutsu by Jiriaya. You dont even need Konan.

      the Naraka Path probably revived them through the king of hell.

      THe Byakugan and Sharingan didnt see it. it is a fact. they should have. Probably. but didnt.

      it actually helps cement Rinnegan being the strongest Dojutsu that much more.

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    • @Nash. Yeah cuz they were taken down.

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    • @Sage

      the paths werent by Genjutsu. rewatch the fight. Jiraiya stabbed all three with stone swords.

      and even if they were taken down by Genjutsu that still did nothing to nothing to Nagato.

      and also remember that was no ordinary Genjutsu that trapped the paths. it was Sage Mode powered Genjutsu. so Itachi would only have shot at the Paths with Tsukuyomi.

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    • @Nash. Lool ik. Jiraiya stabbed them all. That's what I mean by taken down.

      And lool I thought we were debating (off topicly) whether Tsukuyomi through the pains would affect nagato himself or not.

      "THe Byakugan and Sharingan didnt see it. it is a fact. they should have. Probably. but didn't. it actually helps cement Rinnegan being the strongest Dojutsu that much more."

      And holy shit. This is exactly it. Imagine sasuke being able to see madara's limbo with no rinnegan. It's no wonder the sharingan couldn't see it. The chakra flowing to the rods. It's applying the concept of, as you said, the rinne being a 6th sense or higher level dojutsu. If you understand what I mean.

      But the again it wasn't a form of six paths Sage mode that traced nagato. So what's the case with sage mode?

      In regards to the byaku. I'm not sure what to say. Or theorize.

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    • @Sage

      probably went a bit off topic there. but i still stand by my og statement. Tsukuyomi most certainly doesnt affect other PATHS and Nagato if one Path is caught in it.

      Yes. I understand the Rinnegan one. i have been trying to say it all along. just didnt find the proper words and example like you.

      and given Nagato calls himself the Outer Path, the one who governs over life and death, the limbo theory of chakra being passed through it and the dead acting as real people... and also, you know, it probably would explain the age of Yahiko.

      I mean... completely off topic... since Nagato is Outer Path, governing over life and death adn his chakra travels through the limbo, the bodies he make as path may not have the soul of the original people anymore, but they are no longer really dead bodies until his chakra flows through them. it is why Yahiko too is the same age as Nagato and Konan. Yahiko may have died, but his body aged along with them.

      F**K ITS POSSIBLE

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    • @Nash. Man not you to. Nagato and the pains' visions are linked.

      Lol. Referring to the sage mode one. Naruto sensed a rinne tech with sage mode alone. Not sixpaths Sage mode. So this suggests that a Sage mode alone Naruto would have been able to pick up on madara's limbo clones. But ig seeing and feeling in this case are two different things. And naruto's Sage mode did have an affect on six paths juubito so. Plus Kakashi got the same sensation when he was stabbed with the black rod by pain. So seeing and feeling chakra in this case are two different things. The sharingan couldn't see it because it's lower than the rinne. Lower than that particular rinne tech. Sage mode alone could sense it because it was a case of sensing or tracing literal chakra. You atleast kinda understand what I mean with this now? XDD

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    • @Sage

      i stand by my statement.

      and even if Tsukuyomi does succeed, Rinnegan will help Nagato breah through it.

      Naruto stabbed himself with the black rod and forced Nagato's Chakra into his body. at that moment Six Paths Chakra was flowing through him. SInce Rinnegan was only awakened because of Madara mixing the two Chakra of sons and awakenining SP chakra. and Naruto was in SM at that time.

      it doesnt mean he got SPSM. but by stabbing himself with the rod he had the same chakra flowing through him as all the other Paths and so with SM he was able to track where it came from. He became a fake or crude version of a Path for a second or could have awakened lowkey SPSM.

      and given that Naruto is the incarnation of Ashura who acquired SPSM from Hagoromo it shouldnt be that out of the realms. it is after all only after this he started sensing Ashura within him too and Indra in Sasuke


      EDIT__

      got to go. have a whole idea about it all in my mind, but have some work to take care of.

      maybe i'll make a page to discuss it later as i havent read this thought on any forums or reddit so far.

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    • @Nash. "and even if Tsukuyomi does succeed, Rinnegan will help Nagato breah through it."

      Exactly. That's what I said. It would work. But nagato would dispel it. Im only against the fact that you guys think Tsukuyomi wouldn't go through to nagato himself. Through the pains. As their visions are linked.

      In any event. The dynamics of the frog song though is something else. My meaning? The frog song affected the pains instead of nagato oddly as nagato was the only one, out of the pains who could both feel and hear. The pains could only hear. So them being trapped in the frog song's genjutsu realm instead of nagato himself is strange. And them feeling the effects of it or being affected by it is strange. That truly should have only happened to nagato. The only way the pains should have been affected was through momentary loss of control and immobility as nagato would be under the genjutsu. You understand what I mean? Im trying to make sense but don't think I am.

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    • I heard you, Nagato can hear and see what they hear and see so logically he should have been affected by the technique too. But then again the 6PoP does not transfer the enemies chakra or techniques back to Nagato so genjutsu whether sound or eyesight shouldn't be able to affect his brain since the enemies chakra won't reach him.

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    • Nah he alone should have been affected. There are two ways to view this: My way. your way.

      My way:

      "But then again the 6PoP does not transfer the enemies chakra or techniques back to Nagato so genjutsu whether sound or eyesight shouldn't be able to affect his brain since the enemies chakra won't reach him."

      In the way I'm seeing it. It's not about chakra affecting chakra. It's about sound affecting your literal sense of hearing, and in nagato's case hearing and feeling. The pains themself most likely (to correct myself) can't hear. But through them. Nagato can. They instead only channel sound. With that said. It was Nagato's psyche alone then that should have been affected by the frog song. As the pains only channel sound. Nagato channels and feels it. He is the one not the pains that possesses the sense of sensation. My meaning? You don't stay still like a statue during a loud explosion. The frog song is basically like a loud explosion coming through dead human walkie talkies. The pains only channel sound they can't feel the effects of sound. Nagato channels sound and feels its effects. Hope I'm making sense (again)

      To exaggerate further. The pains are basically like portals of sound for nagato. Each one. Two second pairs of ears. It's like nagato basically has mystical phone calls with friends and foes. For example him through the animal path talks to konan outside the leaf village. Him through tendo pain talks to Naruto. What konan says. Through the animal path he hears. What Naruto says. Through tendo he hears.

      To the genjutsu scenario now using my case:

      "Also, if Nagato was affected by Frog Song then he'd be unable to control the other Pains, so no he wasn't affected by it. Only the Pain bodies were."

      Since he alone (in my case) was the one who could have capably been affected by it. He alone was to be seen in the spiritual plain of the genjutsu. And this is where jiraiya should have really discovered the pains secret instead of noticing it through yahiko and Co (those he met before). Nagato would then do one thing; dispel it. Seemingly the frog song stops when it's victim is caught in the spiritual plain. Here's the alternate scenario. Nagato and jiraiya would meet blah blah. At a certain point through him and jiraiya's dialogue exchanges, 'Jiraiya sensei.' 'Nagato!?' XXDDD. Nagato dispels the jutsu with rinne. It goes away. Jiraiya in the real world already took down the pain bodies that were summoned to fight him. With them being vulnerable because of momentary loss of control. And feels he would wander off freely back to konoha thinking that he destroyed all of nagato's play things. With Intel that there is a rinne user (to make it worst it's one of his former students) present in the world. Or. Rather. He would most likely prep himself (Out of awareness. While still urgently trying to go back to konoha) for an encounter with nagato himself thinking again, that since he's destroyed all his play toys (which is the opposite of true from his scope of awareness) nagato would show. Orrrr... he would go and search for nagato himself after discovering his secret there and then. Considering nagato a high level threat that has to be taken down because of his motivations, rinne and because of him being his former student. Being unaware that there are more pains. Nagato at the time when he dispeled the genjutsu would realize that something happened to the pains as he couldn't control them any more. Being aware of this and that jiraiya cracked his code. He spams the rest badda bing. Nakara path badda boom. Using my first two admissions of what would happen after jiraiya destroyed the pains. Nagato would search for jiraiya (with the pains). And with his rain tracking, or sensing jutsu. Eventually finds him in his escape. And they would encounter again, this time with all the pains present, 'Jiraiya boy. The ones we took down have been resurrected and to make matters worse there's more of them' 'Arggh. Nagato. To think that you've taken a liking to puppetry. Though a puppet jutsu of this level is unlike one i've ever experienced before. Considering that you have such powerful eyes anything is possible.' 'Jiraiya sensei. You've learned a bit too much. You have to die here and now.' 'Aauaah... Yahiko?!'..... Nagato. You fiend. You killed Yahiko to be apart of your collection of toys? Again. How low you've stooped... Hold on a second." *FLAM*... *FLAM*... *FLAM*... *FLAM*... *FLAM* -smashing sound effect as screen gets shots on all the other Pains- "Jiraiya boy what's the matter? The situation is dire now is not the time to be freezing out." "I've met all these people before. I'm sure of it."

      Or if he doesn't find jiraiya considering jiraiya's mastery in sneaking. Jiraiya would be home free to konoha.

      Your way:

      In another way your chakra argument is valid. It could have been that the frog song distorted nagato's chakra flow in the pains. With his chakra along with the rinne, somewhat granting them their own psyches that were still under control (this contradicts my argument but).

      It's a case of kankuro and his puppet or puppets. If you destroyed the crow for example kankuro wouldn't feel that effect but he would be aware of it (pretty obviously though). Nagato didn't feel the effects of the frog song but was aware that something was up. Probably noticing that he wasn't fully in control of the pains under the genjutsu anymore. And it's in this way he felt the distortion in his Chakra shared to them. Lack or loss of control. Hence the reason for him summoning the others to the scene.

      Make sense?

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    • Bit of a late point, but it is confirmed that Nagato doesn't feel the pain that the paths experience, at least physically. In the Konoha assault, Ibiki the torturer attempted to interrogate the female animal path in his torture chamber space-time technique. He squeezed her body using metal wires and cogs, and she didn't even flinch, and she proceeded to talk throughout, insinuating that Nagato was perfectly fine.

      In terms of Tsukuyomi, it wouldn't make sense that Nagato would be affected. Even if Tsukuyomi could transfer through the chakra threads between the Pains and Nagato, which I doubt, we don't know if Nagato would even be affected by it in the first place. The only evidence surrounding this is evidence against it. 1st piece of evidence is the Rinnegan's immunity to infinite Tsukuyomi, an undoubtedly stronger genjutsu than Tsukuyomi, and 2nd piece of evidence is the fact that only sound genjutsu has been used on the paths of Pain, not visual genjutsu. This leads me to believe that Itachi's use of visual genjutsu would not work against Pain.

      I know that the absence of evidence, around Pain being susceptible to Tsukuyomi, does not constitute evidence of absence, but given the evidence against such a thing, I'm inclined to disagree against Itachi's ability to use a genjutsu on Pain.

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    • Totally forgot about the ibiki torture part. So yeah Nagato does not feel the damage or pain that his paths take, but you forget that Sasuke and Black Zetsu attributed his Six Paths chakra using Susanoo to being what saved them from I.T. So if that Susanoo was not up the Rinnegan would not have stopped it.

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    • Even if Tsukuyomi doesn't work, Itachi still has the instantly burning Amaterasu and Great Clone Explosion.

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    • I.T. used the moon as a beacon to shower the earth in the Genjutsu. Meaning I.T. works like Koto and that it doesn't need eye contact or anything.

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    • @FlatZone It's because of Sasuke possessing the Rinnegan that he was able to resist Infinite Tsukuyomi, it gave his Susanoo the ability to shield the others from the light. If MS/EMS Sasuke had brought his Susanoo up to shield Team 7, it wouldn't have worked, because he didn't possess the Rinnegan at the time.

      @MadEyes Even healthy, Itachi's stamina doesn't appear to be the best. Deva and Preta ignores Amaterasu, and any other path can be revived by Naraka. Itachi would never know which path is the "Reviver Pain" in a situation where he doesn't have knowledge. Pain could revive the paths just like how they did with Jiraiya, Jiraiya didn't even see the revival jutsu being used. In regards to clone explosion, that's nothing compared to what Pain can dish out, like Chaotic Shinra Tensei, Chibaku Tensei etc. Additionally, Pain can deflect it with Shinra Tensei (or maybe absorb with Preta but this is just speculation), or just keep his distance. Don't forget Pain has his own rockets, missiles and laser beams with the Asura path, making a decent long-distant pressure.

      Pain isn't stupid, he knows how much of a threat Itachi is, he'd most likely use his brute force from the very beginning. Itachi simply doesn't have enough versatility or the stamina to outlast Pain.

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    • @Halcyonite: Naraka path probably can't revive someone, if the body is burned to nothingness. It's true he can use Chibaku Tensei, but that's his last resort, he only used it against Naruto, because he transformed. As for him using Chou Shinra Tensei, Itachi does have Yara Mirror, for what it's worth.

      Asura Path can try to keep his distance, but Itachi's can use the smoke from Asura's bomb and lasers, as cover, so he can close the distance. Pein probably wouldn't take Itachi that much more seriously than Jiraiya.

      Off Topic: Have you seen that Itachi vs Pein fight on youtube?

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    • @MadEyes Naraka would be able to revive them. There was a time where the Asura path was literally missing his lower half and an arm, and he came out of the King of Hell's mouth lookin just fine. And Amaterasu would take its sweet time to burn something to "nothingness".

      Pain can use Bansho Tenin to pull Itachi out of his Susanoo. If Gaara was able to do the same with sand against Madara, I'm sure Itachi would be pulled as well. Also, it has been clarified that Bansho Tenin is a pinpoint attack, as Pain can focus on specific objects/people to be pulled, and it doesn't just act as a vacuum pulling anything towards it.

      You are literally forgetting that Pain has six corpses with shared vision. If we assume that Itachi isn't harmed by the missiles and laser beams that Asura shoots out, in what world would Itachi be able to "close the distance" with the five other paths watching him.

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    • @halyconite: Amaterasu burned the fire resistant toad throat instantly.

      When has Pain pinpointed an object inside an object, like itachi inside Susanoo?

      Itachi can use shared vision against Pain, by sending out a clone to draw their attention. Itachi can block all of their vision like Jiraiya did against the Pain bodies. Besides, the Pein bodies haven't shown that great of a reaction speed, even if all 6 are watching.

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    • Itachi figured out the Rinnegans shared vision near instantly, and from all the blind spots blinded the King of Hell and the other Rinnegan Summons with Kunai in the 4th War. 6PoP has a very limited timespan before Itachi figures it out. Lets not forget how fast he can create bomb clones and crow clones and how fast he can throw Kunai + shuriken and how skilled he is with them. He only needs to take out the Path that summons the King of Hell and he will figure that out instantly and from there he can pick apart the 6 Paths until its down to him vs Deva Path and thats where the fight is decided, he's in a different world of intellect and tactical mind compared to Naruto.

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    • @MadEyes You are pointing out one situation in which Amaterasu burned something instantaneously. There have been many other times where Amaterasu takes its sweet time to incinerate something, one such example is against Obito. If Amaterasu was so quick at burning something, Obito wouldn't have had the chance to use Kamui to evade the flames. Another example is the multi-headed dog summoning, that certainly didn't burn away/ have burned hole marks on its body instantly, and thats coming from an Itachi with unlimited chakra who was in control of his own facets.

      It's not fair to pick out one situation where your point did happen, and ignore the other situations where it didn't happen.

      The Rinnegan is an ocular jutsu, meaning that Bansho Tenin can pinpoint things to pull as long as it is observable. You can still see the user of Susanoo inside the Susanoo body, and we know that people can be pulled through a Susanoo either from tangible or intangible attacks, like Gaara using sand to pull Madara.

      @FlatZone Also, you forget that it was Nagato VS Itachi Killer Bee and Naruto, a 3 V 1 battle. The King of Hell and the summonings were focused on both Killer Bee and Naruto, allowing Itachi to use the kunai. If it was just Itachi VS Nagato, it would have been a completely different story.

      Itachi is a clever guy, but intelligence doesn't create a win out of nothing. That's like saying Shikamaru would beat Kaguya. That might seem a bit overkill, but considering the strength of Itachi and the strength of Pain, it's a similar contrast of strength, but wayyy more watered down.

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    • @Halyconite: In none of those other instances did Itachi need to burn his target instantly, like vs the Rock toad.

      What does it being an ocular jutsu have to do with it targeting Itachi in Susanoo? It's true that Gaara was able to snatch Madara out of Susanoo, but he did that from below Susanoo, where there was an opening. Gaara never snatched Madara from a full body Susanoo.

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    • Madara was up on a cliff that Onoki lifted enabling Gaara's sand to get under the Susanoo in order to snatch Madara under it, Susanoo users cannot be snatched from the ground.

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    • @MadEyes That's a moot point. If Itachi had the ability to burn things with Amaterasu instantaneously, he would do it anyway? Why unnecessarily prolong the fight? And in the case of the multi-headed dog, Itachi had an unlimited supply of chakra, so there would be no excuse to not amp up Amaterasu as high as he could. And bare in mind, healthy Itachi VS Pain would at best pump out a handful of Amaterasu's, and that is counting the ones that are deflected/absorbed by Pain.

      Also, I literally explained why it being an ocular jutsu explains the usage of Bansho Tenin. Anything observable can be pulled towards the user, hence, logic would deduce that Pain could use Bansho Tenin on Itachi, since the Susanoo is a translucent body. And if you watch the clip/read the manga, it clearly shows that Gaara used sand below Madara's feet in order to pull him through the Susanoo. He didn't pull Madara downwards and around the Susanoo.

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    • @Halyconite He had no reason to burn things, instantly in those scenarios. Cerebrus was taken out of fight, regardless if he burned to ashes or not.

      I don't think being able see him is enough, considering he can see Susanoo in front of and around Itachi too. He's never taken someone outside of something like Susanoo.

      That's what I meant, that Gaara used the sand already under Susanoo and yanked out from the inside. Nobody has yanked a susanoo user out from the Susanoo from the outside.

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    • There's a difference between that and that. If pain used universal pull on itachi while he's in the susanoo. The susanoo would come along with him. Not necessarily pull itachi out.

      Gaara's sand sifted through space and pulled madara out of space. The universal pull traps space and reels anything within that space towards it.

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    • @MadEyes It's a logical deduction. It's the same way in how Itachi uses Amaterasu, or the same way Kakashi uses Kamui. They can impact the specific object/person they are observing, like Deidara's arm being sucked into Kamui, or Itachi burning the multi-headed dogs with Amaterasu. It is literally how an eye would operate.

      We've reached an impasse about the Bansho Tenin + Susanoo. Earlier, you said "When has Pain pinpointed an object inside an object, like itachi inside Susanoo?" implying that because there is no evidence, it isn't feasible. But my point is literally exactly the same thing, as there has been nothing that clarifies that Pain couldn't use Bansho Tenin either. The only difference is that we have seen that Gaara has done the same thing with sand, and pulled him through Susanoo, which leads me to believe Bansho Tenin can pull Itachi out of his Susanoo.

      @Senjutsu Sage, Nope. It doesn't act like a vacuum. For example, Pain used Bansho Tenin to pick up a small nail and fling at Kakashi, and only the nail was impacted. The wooden plank and debris remained motionless. This shows that Bansho Tenin can be pinpointed on a select object/person similar to Kamui or Amaterasu, its not like Danzo's elephant summon where it sucks everything and anything into it.

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    • to pick up a small nail and fling at Kakashi?*

      i see. reasonable enough.

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    • Fixed it. This particular Bansho Tenin debate aside though, I don't see Itachi winning this. Yeah the Yata Mirror is pretty cool, but Pain is a way better staller than Itachi, and the Susanoo depletes chakra over time. Pain has a decent counter to every one of Itachi's techniques. Pain has astronomically higher chakra reserves to Itachi etc etc

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    • Itachi can easily take out a Preta or Deva, or any other Pain by putting them in a genjutsu for just a few moments and following up with Totsuka blade.

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    • Lol Deva path almost solo's Itachi, Itachi would get merc'd by all six paths of Pain, they make an OP defensive core. It's also been stated earlier that the Rinnegan is not affected by visual genjutsu.

      Can the Totsuka blade even seal corpses? Even if they could, the shared vision between the paths would make it difficult to achieve.

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    • When was it stated that Rinnegan is not affected by visual genjutsu?

      Nagato would have to know he was in genjutsu, before he was stabbed. Otherwise he would think that Pain body is fine and can defend itself. Besides, how exactly is Pain going to stop Susanoo? Shared Vision won't help them stop Susanoo that much. Even if the other bodies could help with dealing with Susanoo, Itachi also has clones.

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    • The only genjutsu seen to be effective on a Rinnegan user was the Frog genjutsu Jiraiya used against Pain, which is a sound genjutsu. Sasuke's Rinnegan allowed him to resist the Infinite Tsukuyomi which is way stronger than Itachi's Tsukuyomi.

      Also, you are making an assumption by stating that genjutsu would even work on the Pain bodies in the first place, they are corpses. Nagato would definitely know that one of his Paths are under a genjutsu (even if a genjutsu works, which it most likely wouldn't), as what that path is seeing and what the other paths are seeing would appear different. All it would take is for Nagato to stop channelling chakra to that one path to exit the genjutsu, and then rechannel chakra back to that path after a couple of seconds. <<< ALL of this is assuming that genjutsus do work, which they most likely don't on Pain.

      I already said that Pain could use Bansho Tenin on Itachi in Susanoo but since you're ignoring that, the other factor is longevity. Itachi under Susanoo does very little to Pain:

      > Amaterasu is absorbed by Preta path and deflected by Deva path.

      > Visual genjutsu does not work on Rinnegan users, as well as corpses, and there's a lot of evidence supporting that.

      > Even if Itachi tanks things with Yata Mirror, he doesn't have the chakra to stall Pain, Pain would just wait till Itachi is exhausted.

      > Totsuka Blade most likely wouldn't work against the paths of Pain because of the shared vision, and the fact that they are corpses. (When Jiraiya came out of the frog barrier, he threw a giant shuriken at the Asura path, and the Asura path's swiftness in dodging it was inhuman. Stop downplaying the shared vision).

      > In Naruto VS Pain, Naruto spammed loads of clones and Pain put up a good fight for a long time. Itachi would not be able to produce nearly as many shadow clones as Naruto did, and most of what Itachi's clones can do would be countered/ well-met by Pain.

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    • I don't think Sasuke resisting Infinite Tsukuyomi (IT)can be attributed to Nagato's rinnegan, for 2 reasons:

      1. Resisting IT doesn't mean he can resist other sharingan genjutsu, in the same way the Edo Tensei zombies could resist IT, but not Koto.

      2. Sasuke's Rinnegan is different than Nagato. Sasuke's rinnegan has tomoes.

      The Pain bodies, being corpses doesn't matter, if it did Jiraiya wouldn't have been able to put them under genjutsu, since they were dead. That's not the case though. They definitely can be put under genjutsu, even if the only genjutsu we seen them put under is sound genjutsu.

      If Itachi puts Deva in a genjutsu he can make everything look the same and change it, at a very precise pivotal moment. If he coordinates his attacks with a clone he can do some serious damage.

      For example Itachi can put Deva under genjutsu unaware and than throw tons of shurikens at him. knowing Nagato he will try use Shinra Tensei to deal with it, but he won't be able to in a genjutsu.

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    • Both your points for Pain being susceptible to Tsukuyomi are assumptions. Edo Tensei zombies and Rinnegan users are different. Just because Koto worked on Edo Itachi, doesn't mean a completely different genjutsu would work on a completely different person.

      You make another assumption with Sasuke's Rinnegan assuming that those tomoes gave Sasuke the resistance to Infinite Tsukuyomi. Sasuke's tomoes in his Rinnegan allow access to his Mangekyo Sharingan abilities of the left eye, and also indicate how much chakra he has used up for the Rinnegan in a single fight. They disappear if he is too low on chakra, meaning that he has to wait for his power to recharge. When he gains more chakra, the tomoe reappear. In no way does it say in the manga that his tomoes have any other facets or abilities other than this.

      Fair enough that the paths were under the sound genjutsu, despite being corpses. But that's it. There is so much evidence pointing to a Rinnegan wielder's resistance to visual genjutsu, and I have repeated it many times. Even though those three paths were under the sound genjutsu, the other three paths of Pain remained operational, leading to the sneak attack against Jiraiya towards the end of the fight, so your assumption that Nagato wouldn't know that some of the paths are under genjutsu in the first place is incorrect.

      ^^ All your points trying to argue that the Rinnegan doesn't resist visual genjutsu are assumptive and situational at best.

      If it was that simple to put a Rinnegan user under genjutsu, edo Itachi would have done so against edo Nagato. This would have ended the fight so much quicker, and would have avoided Chibaku Tensei altogether. So your reasoning can't be because "Itachi didn't need to", meaning that the only logical explanation is that Itachi can't use visual genjutsu on a Rinnegan wielder.

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    • I don't think putting one body in genjutsu will win itachi the fight Honestly the other bodies will just get that body out of the genjutsu and block attacks for him

      There are ways for itachi to win but it won't be quick or easy

      Fight can go either way comes down to alot of factors

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    • @Ebon. Itachi defeats or can defeat all the pains except until down to tendo. Ashura path? Vaults forward impulsively as usual. Totsuka blade. Animal path and its summonings? Yata mirror. Amaterasu. Totsuka blade. Soul sucker path and preta path? Tendo/Nagato would realize itachi's game and aid them. So itachi would have it difficult after here. The nakara path can't really do shit.

      @Hal. Tbh. Tsukuyomi would work but would be dispelled. Cause the rinne is above it. I could imagine a sasuke without covering him self with susanoo (and team 7 but forget about them in this instance) getting fallacious hallucinations about his perfect life because of IT. But I can also imagine him dispelling it because of his rinne.

      In the case of koto and the IT. Koto I can guess works on the living and dead (particularly on those who are edo tensei'd). IT because of what it truly has to accomplish (suck up life energy and chakra) only works on the living.

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    • @Senjutsu Sage Again, if visual genjutsu was possible against a Rinnegan user, Itachi would have used it against Nagato in edo form, even if it could be dispelled, giving him an amount of time to intervene.

      I disagree concerning Asura path. It vaulted forwards because it was focused on Tsunade, and Naruto attacked it whilst it was focused on Tsunade. This match up is Itachi by himself, meaning no surprise attacks from extraneous variables.

      (Big problem with scaling Pain/Nagato against others is that he always had the odds stacked against him, with multiple people fighting him at once.)

      The one other occasion where the Asura path vaulted was against Jiraiya at the end of the fight, and obviously that worked brilliantly, as Jiraiya lost an arm.

      Other than that and the vault against Tsunade, the Asura path adopted a long-range stance shooting its missiles, laser beams and explosions, and it would most likely do so against someone like Itachi.

      Let's not forget the summon spam that the Animal path can do. Itachi could at best pump out 3-4 amaterasu's on the summons, draining him severely, and Pain would be able to re-summon them again eventually.

      I already agreed that the Yata Mirror is OP, but it could have performed better in the hands of someone with more chakra than Itachi. Itachi wouldn't be able to hold it up for too long especially against a chakra-filled powerhouse like Pain.

      I agree that Human path would probs be near useless at the beginning of the fight, and would probs just be used as taijutsu bait, or he could rip Itachi's soul out if Itachi is severely drained of chakra.

      Preta path is integral against Itachi, he legit nullifies most of Itachi's damage output.

      Totsuka blade is Itachi's best bet, but Pain could prolong Itachi's usage of it by using Shinra Tensei, or spamming summons to take the hit. Itachi probably couldn't keep his susanoo active for very long considering his chakra supply in comparison to Pain's. And this is ignoring Chibaku Tensei ending the fight immediately.

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    • Yeah. Its only a diversion tactic in this fight. I agree that pain would win overall. But itachi would atleast take out a good bit of them.

      Lol and stealing your soul while your already weak? How cruel is that lol

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    • Halcyonite wrote: Both your points for Pain being susceptible to Tsukuyomi are assumptions. Edo Tensei zombies and Rinnegan users are different. Just because Koto worked on Edo Itachi, doesn't mean a completely different genjutsu would work on a completely different person.

      You make another assumption with Sasuke's Rinnegan assuming that those tomoes gave Sasuke the resistance to Infinite Tsukuyomi. Sasuke's tomoes in his Rinnegan allow access to his Mangekyo Sharingan abilities of the left eye, and also indicate how much chakra he has used up for the Rinnegan in a single fight. They disappear if he is too low on chakra, meaning that he has to wait for his power to recharge. When he gains more chakra, the tomoe reappear. In no way does it say in the manga that his tomoes have any other facets or abilities other than this.

      Fair enough that the paths were under the sound genjutsu, despite being corpses. But that's it. There is so much evidence pointing to a Rinnegan wielder's resistance to visual genjutsu, and I have repeated it many times. Even though those three paths were under the sound genjutsu, the other three paths of Pain remained operational, leading to the sneak attack against Jiraiya towards the end of the fight, so your assumption that Nagato wouldn't know that some of the paths are under genjutsu in the first place is incorrect.

      ^^ All your points trying to argue that the Rinnegan doesn't resist visual genjutsu are assumptive and situational at best.

      If it was that simple to put a Rinnegan user under genjutsu, edo Itachi would have done so against edo Nagato. This would have ended the fight so much quicker, and would have avoided Chibaku Tensei altogether. So your reasoning can't be because "Itachi didn't need to", meaning that the only logical explanation is that Itachi can't use visual genjutsu on a Rinnegan wielder.

      My point with Edo Tensei zombies being resistant to Infinite Tsukuyomi (IT), is that just because Sasuke's Rinnegan was able to resist IT, doesn't mean the rinnegan is resistant to genjutsu in general. The only evidence that the rinnegan is resistant to genjutsu, is to a very specific genjutsu. It bears no weight on what MS genjutsu can do to a Rinnegan user and resistance to IT is the only evidence that could of been used to claim genjutsu resistance.

      It's not an assumption, that Nagato's rinnegan hasn't proven to be resistant to ocular genjutsu, in general.

      Itachi could have thought Nagato couldn't deal with Amaterasu, that is until Nagato shinra tensei it. As for why he didn't put Nagato in genjutsu. Nagato wasn't shown to be looking in Itachi's eyes, when Nagato used Chibaku Tensei.

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    • Nagato was under complete control by Kabuto when he fought Itachi, B, and NTCM Naruto. Genjutsu wouldn't have worked on him there anyway and Itachi knew that. If he was not under complete control by Kabuto then genjutsu might worked.

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    • @MadEyes Your point is fundamentally illogical. It simply doesn't make sense for the Rinnegan to be immune to the strongest, most broken visual genjutsu in the entire series, but it not being immune to a much smaller, much weaker version?

      That's like saying a guy could resist a M249 light machine gun to the face, but they die by nerf gun.

      Additionally, we know that it is Sasuke's rinnegan that makes him immune to IT, and not only his Susanoo. Sasuke said in the manga that his "amped" susanoo was capable of shielding Team 7 from the genjutsu, alluding to the fact that it was his Rinnegan that amped the susanoo. Even Black Zetsu retorted that it was probably his Rinnegan that deterred the Infinite Tsukuyomi.

      If that wasn't enough, both in the manga and the Naruto forums, both descriptions of Tsukuyomi and Infinite Tsukuyomi are near identical in functionality. Both trap the target in an illusion. The only difference between Tsukuyomi and Infinite Tsukuyomi is that IT's scale requires it to be reflected from the moon. That's it. This means that there is literally no logic in Rinnegan resisting IT but not resisting other visual genjutsu, like Tsukuyomi.

      Also, Itachi and Nagato legit had a 30 second stare-down before Nagato initiated Chibaku Tensei. They did make eye-contact lol.

      @FlatZone The reanimated Kage averted IT without being controlled. So that implies that even if Nagato wasn't controlled by Kabuto, Itachi's genjutsu still wouldn't affect him.

      Of course, you could argue that its because of Nagato as an edo, and not his Rinnegan, that he would resist genjutsu. But that isn't definitive and it doesn't rule out the Rinnegan's immunity to visual genjutsu either way. All other situations where a Rinnegan user has encountered a visual genjutsu has shown an immunity.

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    • Not it hasn't I.T. is not a normal Genjutsu, it is a Senjutsu powered Rinne Sharingan Genjutus that does not need eye contact nor physical touch to work. The only Genjutsu's that are used against the Rinnegan are sound genjutsu and I.T. So saying Tsukuyomi won't work against the Rinnegan(it requires eye contact) is speculation. The only thing we can rule out is that I.T. won't work on the Rinnegan, and only Limited Tsukuyomi can be compared to Infinite Tsukuyomi.

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    • It isn't speculation, it's logical deduction. Speculation implies that I am making a claim using only headcanon and no evidence. But I have exhibited evidence, as well as absence of evidence. Also, you've made my point for me.

      If the Rinnegan could resist IT, a "Senjutsu powered Rinne Sharingan Genjutsu that does not need eye contact nor physical touch to work" as you worded it, why would it not resist a genjutsu that is only powered by a generic MS? I'm sure I don't need to explain to you that the Rinne-sharingan is a far superior dojutsu to the MS, and like you said, IT is a genjutsu that is also amplified by sage powers. And let's not forget the aforementioned identical descriptions of IT and Tsukuyomi.

      ^Meaning that the Rinnegan resisting IT is a gargantuan feat compared to resisting Tsukuyomi.

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    • That could be the case, but I.T. is not the same as any other genjutsu except for limited Tsukuyomi, you could only use this argument against that too. Also, in the novel and in the anime the Rinnegan did not save Sasuke from the https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Ketsury%C5%ABgan when Chino used it to get him in genjutsu, he did break out but it wasn't instant and the Rinnegan did not prevent him from getting caught in visual genjutsu.

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    • @Hal. I for one understand where you are coming from. But i think what Madeyes is trying to get to you is that if sasuke took the IT head on (instead of blocking the light with his rinne powered, six paths dark chakra susanoo) he would be affected but it would then be dispelled because of the fact of his rinne. And in nagato's case it would be the same thing, but in this instance there's no light, just full on eye contact and mental swordsmanship but nagato's rinne would be a counter sword and a shield vs it. My meaning? I to the greatest extent of my imaginative powers can envision that if itachi tsukuyomi'd nagato himself while he was alive, he would be affected by it but only momentarily as it would then be dispelled because of the rinne. with the rinne being just like sasuke's will and hate vs itachi's tsukuyomi but 4x or 10x stronger.

      To summarize in more understandable terms. Madeyes is ultimately trying to say that a rinne user would in fact be affected by sharingan genjutsu (this i can assume he means as the non resistance). The resistance now is being able to easily dispel it. @Madeyes am i right? or do i just don't make sense? XDD

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    • @FlatZone I find referring to novel content a bit iffy due to many contradictions / strange occurrences. For example, Itachi had a genjutsu in the novels that was so powerful, it literally shut the other person's brain down (being Izumi), and yet he did not use this technique in the manga. It's literally so broken. Also, we don't have much to go on surrounding the Ketsurygan's intricacies.

      But if we were to accept the Ketsurygan as a point of debate, given the fact that it could place Sasuke under genjutsu, it's safe to say that its one of the most potent genjutsu in the entire series. Most likely more potent than the Sharingan in terms of its genjutsu faculties. No where in the manga does it show the Sharingan to have such a powerful genjutsu effect on the Rinnegan, creating a distinction between the MS and the Ketsurygan.

      That being said, it only had 4 chapters of a novel that was exclusively sold in Japan for quite some time to establish a foundation, so there isn't much to go on in comparing it to the sharingan, the Rinnegan or IT.

      @Senjutsu Sage The only reason Sasuke manifested the Susanoo was to protect Team 7. He most likely would have been fine if he just stood there, but he couldn't afford to let Naruto get caught up in the genjutsu. He even acknowledged under the Susanoo that if Naruto or himself got caught/went down, "it's all over".

      I personally disagree with Tsukuyomi working on a Rinnegan user, but even if it were to work just to be dispelled a few seconds later, how would that give Itachi the edge against Pain? Tsukuyomi is an incredibly taxing technique, so would Itachi even sacrifice that amount of chakra only for a few seconds?

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    • "He even acknowledged under the Susanoo that if Naruto or himself got caught, "it's all over".

      This bit of your argument unconsciously agrees with what I said.

      And your not understanding. I'm not arguing in favour of Tsukuyomi being the ultimate one up vs pain. I'm arguing that it would work (as you're not made to believe) but would only be a diversion tactic in this fight. Like amaterasu. I already admitted that itachi can't defeat pain. Plus. Would itachi even know that Tsukuyomi is kinda useless vs the rinne? Wouldn't he see nagato or the pains as just another opponent he could Tsukuyomi the shit out of? What does itachi even know about the rinne? He's never shown awareness about the abilities and prowess of the rinne. He'd use it (Tsukuyomi) but would then realize it's not valuable in this fight. It's only a diversion tactic in this fight as i'll repeat. And those few seconds can buy itachi alot of time like when he genjutsu'd Kakashi in part 1 and ended up right behind him with a kunai to his back in an instant. And what Kakashi thought was itachi was in actuality a clone upon the later revelation.

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    • @Senjutsu Sage are you still using that ridiculous argument claiming people are unconsciously agreeing with you? Why do you keep telling people that they agree with you when they clearly do not?

      Tsukuyomi can't really just be a diversion, it costs too much chakra for Itachi to use. Itachi's chakra reserves are worse than average, so while he'd have better reserves than in his final fight against Sasuke, he still wouldn't be able to us MS as often as say, Sasuke in the Five Kage summit.

      He didn't Genjutsu Kakashi in Part 1 to send his clone behind him, he made the clone so fast while at the same time distracting Kakashi with his Shuriken and water Ninjutsu that Kakashi didn't notice Itachi's clone til it stabbed him. Which, might I remind you, was a feint on Kakashi's part and that Kakashi was a water clone, which only has 1/10 of the the user's full strength.

      How do you know Kakashi thought that it was actually Itachi and not a clone? Way more evidence points to him knowing it was a clone, considering he yelled at Kurenai "Get down! This one is a clone!" and portected her from the blast.

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    • @Squinty: Kakashi knew it was a clone last minute, because it was exploding and the sharingan can see chakra.

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    • BrainBrand wrote: @Squinty: Kakashi knew it was a clone last minute, because it was exploding and the sharingan can see chakra.

      And uh, how exactly do you know he only realized it last minute? Where was it indicated that he thought it wasn't a clone?

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    • @Squinty97 He had no reason to believe, it was anything, but the real thing. Also you can't tell kage bunshin's from the original, because everything is the same. However Kakashi was able to tell it's a clone, the only way that's possible is if he saw the chakra concentrating to one point, like Neji did with Deidara's exploding clone.

      Kakashi would had no reason to dodge the explosion, unless he knew one was coming.

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    • @BrainBrand he could've noticed Itachi make it before he even joined the fight, watching with his Sharingan. There's no indication that he thought that it was not a clone. There's minor evidence that Kakashi knew it was a clone.

      Essentially, my argument wasn't that Kakashi definitely knew that Itachi was a clone. What I'm saying is that saying he for sure did not know that it was a clone is a very big assumption considering there's nothing to back it up.

      Regarding your edit, he probably just knew about Clone Explosion technique. He's the Leaf's Number 1 technician, it's not weird for him to know about different techniques.

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    • Senjutsu Sage wrote: But i think what Madeyes is trying to get to you is that if sasuke took the IT head on (instead of blocking the light with his rinne powered, six paths dark chakra susanoo) he would be affected but it would then be dispelled because of the fact of his rinne.

      @Senjutsu Sage

      I'm not sure how my point - He even acknowledged under the Susanoo that if Naruto or himself got caught, it's all over - unconsciously agrees with you.

      You made the point that Sasuke needed to use Susanoo to shield himself, because if he didn't he would've been caught in IT, even if it was only for a few seconds. My point was that I think Sasuke wouldn't be caught in IT even if he didn't use Susanoo. He only used the Susanoo in order to protect Team 7. If it was only Sasuke there, he'd have no need for Susanoo.

      Also, I already said that Tsukuyomi is not an efficient diversion. Why would Itachi waste so much chakra for a few seconds? He'd be better of just holding up Yata Mirror, and even that won't sustain for too long.

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    • @Squinty. Man what is with all of this emotion? Jesus christ. And he did unconsciously agree. I said sasuke without the susanoo would succumb to the IT and then he said, "He even acknowledged under the Susanoo that if Naruto "OR HIMSELF" got caught, it's all over" how is this not agreeing? He's saying the same thing as me. Plus it wouldn't be over for sasuke as i've just come to realize, cause the rinne as shown is above IT (he'd dispel it).

      "He didn't Genjutsu Kakashi in Part 1 to send his clone behind him, he made the clone so fast while at the same time distracting Kakashi with his Shuriken and water Ninjutsu that Kakashi didn't notice Itachi's clone til it stabbed him. Which, might I remind you, was a feint on Kakashi's part and that Kakashi was a water clone, which only has 1/10 of the the user's full strength."

      He did genjutsu kakashi. Dude, the itachi that put the kunai to his back was the real itachi. From that is how he deduced that the itachi infront of him (which everyone thought was the real itachi at first but because of genjutsu) was a clone. And from that also is when he did this, "considering he yelled at Kurenai "Get down! This one is a clone!" In any event you needa go and watch that scene over again. if you care that is.

      @Hal but you said this, "He even acknowledged under the Susanoo that if Naruto "or himself" got caught, it's all over." Now you're saying, "My point was that I think Sasuke wouldn't be caught in IT even if he didn't use Susanoo. He only used the Susanoo in order to protect Team 7. If it was only Sasuke there, he'd have no need for Susanoo." this? gotta make up your mind.

      And yeah i understand. My ultimate point is that tsukuyomi would work whereas you think it wouldn't.

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    • @Senjutsu Sage, it has to do with you somehow thinking you can say what people mean instead of them themselves. No one is telling you that you did something you didn't do, don't do that to others. Also, idk where I showed anywhere near the amount of emotion that you're showing lol. I just said that argument is ridiculous, and that you've used it more than a few times. And you're over here invoking religious figures over it.

      In the translation I've read, Sasuke says that if him or Sasuke are "done in," it's over. What that probably means is that if either one of them are defeated, they have no shot. And he mentioned this because Naruto just tried to leave Susanoo while IT was still active. I don't see where he says that he says he himself can be caught; he's only saying if either one of them are down for the count, they lose.

      He didn't use Genjutsu on Kakashi until Tsukuyomi. And the fact that you think it's the case despite all observations attribute it to jutsu speed is beyond me. Read Chapter 142. It's jutsu speed. Nowhere is it shown to be Genjutsu.

      And how exactly does Itachi showing up behind him prove that the one in front of him was a clone? Either one could be the clone, it was Kakashi's observation that allowed him to deduce which was which, not Itachi's attack.

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    • @Senjutsu Sage My point never unconsciously agreed with you, you just interpreted it differently.

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    • more like them unconsciously saying what i say and i pick up on it.

      "@Senjutsu Sage are you still using that ridiculous argument claiming people are unconsciously agreeing with you? Why do you keep telling people that they agree with you when they clearly do not?" loool, this felt like a lot of emotion to me.

      Ohh, well i watched the anime. and i re-watched it and what you said was right. it was because of him using water style and his shuriken what not. And after that he instantly appeared behind kakashi. but what i drew from that is that it had to be genjutsu because he went behind kakashi so fast and put a clone in place of himself where he was (infront of kakashi). he didn't even use hand signs. the kashi with the kunai to his back was revealed to be a water clone. kisame said it should be considered an honour that he copied their jutsu. kashi was under water with a kunai in his hand. kurenai saw him. talked to herself saying good job kakashi or what ever. kashi jumps out of the water grabs kurenai and jumps away, "get back kurenai this one is a clone"

      So... "And how exactly does Itachi showing up behind him prove that the one in front of him was a clone? Either one could be the clone, it was Kakashi's observation that allowed him to deduce which was which, not Itachi's attack." the itachi that put the kunai to his back was the real itachi. because the itachi that was infront of kakashi when he had the kunai to his back was the one that exploded.

      lol, in any event. it so looked like it was genjutsu. he did shit so fast. it seemed like danzo's izanagi vs shisui.

      nahh. interpreted it exactly how it was said. till squinty came along and explained what you really meant for you.

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    • Halcyonite wrote:

      @Senjutsu Sage The only reason Sasuke manifested the Susanoo was to protect Team 7. He most likely would have been fine if he just stood there, but he couldn't afford to let Naruto get caught up in the genjutsu. He even acknowledged under the Susanoo that if Naruto or himself got caught, "it's all over".

      Legit, just read the whole point I originally wrote, it's getting annoying how you're twisting my original point. You ripped one sentence out that needed the context of the rest of the paragraph to make sense.

      "The only reason Sasuke manifested the Susanoo was to protect Team 7."

      "He (Sasuke) most likely would have been fine if he just stood there, but he couldn't afford to let Naruto get caught up in the genjutsu.

      How on earth does this point unconsciously agree with you? My point says in black and white that Sasuke only manifested the Susanoo to protect Team 7, not himself. His REASONING for protecting Team 7 is because if himself or Naruto go down/go out of commission, "it's all over".

      Stop twisting that one sentence to make it seem like I'm saying that Sasuke is susceptible to IT.

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    • I suggest you edit the himself part, so it seems less like a contradiction. In any event i apologize.

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    • It's fine. I changed it to "if Naruto or himself got caught/went down, "it's all over." "

      But even the original sentence still made sense, Sasuke was simply saying that if either Naruto or himself were down for the count in some shape or form, the battle would be impossible.

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    • Senjutsu Sage wrote:

      "@Senjutsu Sage are you still using that ridiculous argument claiming people are unconsciously agreeing with you? Why do you keep telling people that they agree with you when they clearly do not?" loool, this felt like a lot of emotion to me.

      You see how you for some reason believe you're able to say what the other users' actual intent is instead of the actual user? I noted that your argument is ridiculous and asked why you kept doing it, but somehow I'm emotional about it despite using no expletives, exclamations, or anything. I asked a question, you can stop reading into it.

      In regards to the rest, yes, jutsu speed. Glad we agree here.

      Kakashi had no indication as to whether the Itachi behind him was the clone or the real one, so it was only Kakashi's observation that allowed him to deduce which was the real one, not Itachi's own attack.

      In any case, pretty sure we all agree Pain would win anyways. Itachi stands a way better chance if he knew all of Pain's secrets from the start. But since it's no knowledge, he doesn't have the chakra to win this.

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    • Itachi can beat Pain, but he has a much better chance with knowledge than without it.

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    • Bottom line is that Itachi can't. Chibaku Tensei ends him. And that is assuming Itachi can get through all the other 5 paths of pain without exhausting himself.

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    • Halcyonite wrote: Bottom line is that Itachi can't. Chibaku Tensei ends him. And that is assuming Itachi can get through all the other 5 paths of pain without exhausting himself.

      Chibaku Tensei would end him, but that's a last resort for Pein. If Itachi permanently takes out Deva, before he uses it, he can win.

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    • That's a pretty big if you're using there. Deva path is near invincible when he's got the other 5 paths covering him. So Itachi has to kill the other paths before he attempts to dispatch Deva.

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    • Halcyonite wrote: That's a pretty big if you're using there. Deva path is near invincible when he's got the other 5 paths covering him. So Itachi has to kill the other paths before he attempts to dispatch Deva.

      Itachi can use Magatama to either take out or separate multiple Pains.

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    • Again, given that this is a form of ninjutsu, Preta path can absorb it. Deva path can also repel the explosions from them.

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    • BrainBrand wrote: Itachi can use Magatama to either take out or separate multiple Pains.

      Deva Path, Preta Path, sacrificial Summons, heck missile deflections from Asura Path, there are too many ways to deal with Magatama. Not to mention that Susanoo is a huge drain on Itachi and he can't just keep using it

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    • Halcyonite wrote: Again, given that this is a form of ninjutsu, Preta path can absorb it. Deva path can also repel the explosions from them.

      How can Preta and Deva absorb or repel 4 projectiles going to different places? 2 would be absorbed and 2 wouldn't.

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    • Pain is a close-knit group dude. The way Pain literally works is that they cover for each other. If a ninjutsu is heading towards them, they stay behind Preta path. Explosions or projectiles? Deva path.

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    • The Magatamas explode on contact. If Deva tries to repel them, it won't end well for them.

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    • Deva path can maintain Shinra Tensei for quite a bit. An example is when he used Shinra Tensei and prolonged it against Naruto's shadow clones during their final skirmish.

      He'd prolong Shinra Tensei until the explosion dissipated.

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    • Halcyonite wrote: Deva path can maintain Shinra Tensei for quite a bit. An example is when he used Shinra Tensei and prolonged it against Naruto's shadow clones during their final skirmish.

      He'd prolong Shinra Tensei until the explosion dissipated.

      Pain doesn't know they would explode, so he wouldn't have any reason to prolong shinra tensei, until it's too late. Besides if we look at Nagato's past battle with Hanzo, he couldn't shinra tensei that explosion, so it's unlikely he can.

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    • Any large ninjutsu projectile flying at Deva would convince him to use a Shinra Tensei with adequate longevity. Even if he didn't for some dumb reason, he'd just amp up the shinra Tensei to shift the explosion's trajectory more towards the opposite side.

      Nagato's battle with Hanzo was before he knew all the powers of the Rinnegan. Obito began teaching him all the abilities once Nagato agreed to let him join them. And also, he was rescuing Konan and the paper tags had already stuck to his legs and were a millisecond from exploding, so there wasn't any way to avoid it.

      Let's be real, if Nagato at that time knew how to use the Rinnegan fully, he would not sacrifice his mobility and impale himself with the Gedo Mazo's rods to take on Hanzo's troops. He'd just use Bansho Tenin on Konan and then gtfo, or he'd use Chibaku Tensei.

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    • Nagato knew how to use Shinra Tensei, back then.

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    • He did, but plot was the reason he got caught in the jutsu, that and the fact that the tags actually latched to and wrapped around his legs. Nagato could have shinra tenseied them off easily.. but again plot stupidity is the reason.

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    • @Brain Dude, my point was that Nagato had little experience with the Rinnegan at that point, most of his life up until that point was just screaming loudly and then Shinra Tensei would unconsciously activate, or the time when he screamed in the canyon against Leaf Anbu and he accidentally summoned the Gedo Mazo, until Yahiko tackled him to calm down.

      Yeah, Nagato deliberately used Shinra Tensei against the kunai thrown at him, but he many not have learned to maintain it for longer by that point, or he hadn't perfected his usage of it. If he did, he would have used a stronger Shinra Tensei to obliterate Hanzo's forces.

      Him resorting to use the Gedo Mazo literally shows his inexperience in using it; he resorted to such a high risk technique for a feat that isn't too great considering the dangerous cost.

      But regardless of that, your point is still wrong about him not being able to repel explosions, because of what has already been said.

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    • lool, you realize when someone's too powerful they take away something? Orchimaru, his arms. Shisui, his life and eyes. Obito, one of his eyes. Nagato, his feet (cause if mobile he'd be dangerous). Kakashi, obito's MS. Obito, his life. Itachi, his health and life and opportunity to remain a leaf shinobi (clan massacre). Madara, double rinne hashi cells and senjutsu, his life. (would have been the world's strongest if not for the jinchuriki rule and could have been an asset to the leaf and shinobi world vs the otsutsuki). etcc lol

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    • Even if he could repel the explosion, by prolonging the shinra tensei, he wouldn't know to do it by the time, the explosion occurs. He has no reason to believe they would explode.

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    • Okay if you're gonna pull at straws like this, I'll do the same.

      Itachi wouldn't know that the Human Path's power rips out souls, so Itachi has no reason to believe that the Human path could kill him instantaneously.

      Lol dude, once he starts Shinra Tensei, that's it, all he has to do is keep it going, it's not that hard, he would literally see the explosion occur as soon as Shinra Tensei made contact.

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    • I'm not pulling straws.

      If the explosion is instantaneous, how would Pain be able to react to it?

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    • It's literally not. Pain will initiate Shinra Tensei when he sees Yasaka Magatama flying at him.

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    • Halcyonite wrote: It's literally not. Pain will initiate Shinra Tensei when he sees Yasaka Magatama flying at him.

      The Magatama might not be instantaneous, but the resulting explosion, as a result of contact is. Also there's no guarantee, that Pein can repel something something as strong as that explosion, in an instant.

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    • Considering Pain blew up the entire leaf village within the space of 5 seconds, I'm sure that he can muster enough strength in even less to block a Yasaka Magatama. You're seriously overestimating this technique. A strong Shinra Tensei will essentially nullify it.

      Rasenshuriken is one of the strongest ninjutsu in the series, and Deva path literally turned it into nothing. We all know that the Rasenshuriken explodes when it succeeds contact, but no explosion occurred when Deva used Shinra Tensei. With a technique like Magatama, I don't necessarily think the explosion that results from it would turn to nothing, but Pain would literally dissolve it into a flurry of smoke and fire, whether he prolongs Shinra Tensei or not.

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    • True, but Pain couldn't blow back the 4 tails, with a prolonged Shinra Tensei.

      You might be right about it acting like Rasen Shuriken. Well it doesn't matter. Itachi can just aim at the ground to use it a smoke screen for Totsuka blade or clone feint. Once he switches position with the clone he can, target the paths without them being aware of him.

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    • It’s not that the 4 tails couldn’t be blown back, it’s that it turned the force of the Shinra Tensei against Deva.

      Totsuka can also be repelled and dissipated by Shinra Tensei since its an ethereal sword, and Itachi using a smokescreen feint would be difficult due to the shared vision of the paths.

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    • Halcyonite wrote: It’s not that the 4 tails couldn’t be blown back, it’s that it turned the force of the Shinra Tensei against Deva.

      Totsuka can also be repelled and dissipated by Shinra Tensei since its an ethereal sword, and Itachi using a smokescreen feint would be difficult due to the shared vision of the paths.

      At the moment I'm not looking at the chapter, but I'm pretty sure the reason Shinra Tensei was turned back on Deva was due to the fact 4 tails withstood it.

      It being etheral doesn't mean it can be repelled. If Nagato could repel it, why didn't he vs it before he got sealed?

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    • First and foremost, you seem to be ignoring everything Itachi did vs Nagato already in the 4th War Halcyonite.. for example it took less than a minute for Itachi to realize and then disable the shared vision of the Rinnegan Also the Rinnegan sees chakra yet all Itachi needed was a smoke screen to stab into him with the Sword of Totsuka, going to show that the sword has near instantaneous extension speed to stab Nagato who couldn't even respond to its speed. Itachi is smarter and more tactical than Naruto by far, if Naruto could figure out how to deal with the paths you can bet Itachi can, again the only real issues lie with Chibaku Tensei and how Itachi would deal with it on his own.

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    • @FlatZone I could honestly say the same thing to you. Some of your points that you used to back up your argument before, you fail to acknowledge them being in favour of mine.

      Why are you ignoring the extreme disadvantage Nagato was at? He was literally focused on NTCM Naruto and Killer Bee at the same time. A 3V1. A 3V1. The two strongest tailed beast Perfect Jinjuurikis and Edo Itachi Uchiha. Itachi would have seen Bee get caught whilst Nagato wasn’t looking at him, which would have helped him deduce the linked vision. Besides, say Itachi figured out the shared vision. So what. Pain would still maintain its defensive core and Itachi wouldn’t be able to do much about it. As you said, the Rinnegan can still perceive chakra under smokescreen.

      One point that you brought up before, but you fail to mention now is Kabuto’s control over Nagato. Kabuto’s experience with the Rinnegan is very rudimentary, he literally said “Hmm, I could try out that planet jutsu” before he made Nagato use Chibaku Tensei. Edo Nagato is not a true testament of Nagato’s strength, so saying he couldn’t avoid Totsuka is bs. A possible explanation of this is the delayed reaction speed from Kabuto’s end. But since you like to bring up plot so much, Nagato needed to be dealt with quickly in order to progress the story, let’s not lie, Nagato should have seen that blade coming.

      Also, nothing in the manga implies that Totsuka has “instantaneous” speed. It’s been used twice, once against Orochimaru, and he just let it hit him because he thought it was just a weak fire jutsu, and once against Nagato, a controlled and partially crippled edo who didn’t even want to fight in the first place. Not exactly the best reasoning.

      “If Naruto could figure out how to deal with the paths” ..... lol what? The Konoha investigation team did weeks of research on the Pain body that Jiraiya brought back, and Konoha’s fighting forces had first-hand experience fighting Pain, and they gave all the info they gathered to Katsuyu to splurge on Naruto, whilst he was fighting Pain! And if that wasn’t enough, he had all the toads in the world to help him fight Pain.

      I can literally make a list of the paths that went down unfairly, as it wasn’t a true 1v1 setting.

      - Asura path went down immediately, because it was locked on Tsunade and got a surprise attack by Naruto, so it essentially got taken out by an extraneous variable.

      - Animal path went down because the grampa toad thought of a plan for a fight Naruto was having (being the big toad swallow both Naruto and the Animal path). There is no implication that Naruto would have come up with this on his own, and shows how he definitely didn’t figure out “how to deal with the paths.”

      - Deva path went down for a lot of factors. First of all, he used Chaotic Shinra Tensei which basically took away his ability for half the battle. If he had his power for the whole fight, I can guarantee that Naruto would have lost, since all the six paths at full power are near unbeatable (ignoring Naruto’s plot armour ofc). Let’s not forget Hinata intervening just as Pain was about to take Naruto, and oh, lets not forget Minato coming back from the dead to redo Naruto’s seal. (Even though that might not be good news for Pain, it would mean Naruto would be dead.)

      - Human path’s usability got hit with the domino effect, since because Deva path couldnt use Shinra Tensei on Naruto’s first rasenshuriken due to the CST cooldown, the Human path had to take the hit.

      One final nail in the coffin is that during this whole thing, Pain wasn’t even fighting with killer intent. He just wanted to capture Naruto, and there were plenty of scenarios early on in the fight where Pain could have easily ended Naruto.

      Point being, Itachi would take longer than a minute to figure out Pain if it was a battle just between him and Pain. And stop ignoring factors in your favour that you brought up before. And stop downplaying Pain, you always bring up Itachi’s cleverness, pretending that Nagato is an idiot, when he clearly isn’t. He’s like a mastermind playing chess with the Six Rinnegan powers.

      Face it, Itachi can’t defeat Pain, and it wouldn’t even be that close.

      @Brain, an ethereal weapon would disintegrate for a time upon contact with a strong force, especially against something like Shinra Tensei. It would need a couple seconds to reform, and by then Pain could retreat/ use Bansho Tenin to pull Itachi out of Susanoo. I already explained to FlatZone why Nagato didn’t repel it at the end of their edo fight.

      My last post to this thread lol

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    • FlatZone wrote: Also the Rinnegan sees chakra yet all Itachi needed was a smoke screen to stab into him with the Sword of Totsuka, going to show that the sword has near instantaneous extension speed to stab Nagato who couldn't even respond to its speed.

      You realize this is the same Nagato who was hit by Amaterasu, fell to the ground, and just left the technique burning on him while Itachi and Naruto had an entire conversation about Itachi and Shisui's past and Shisui's Mangekyo abilities? And then finally Shinra Tensei'd the flames off of himself? The sword hitting Nagato doesn't make the sword as fast as Nagato, since Nagato wasn't really the one fighting here.

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    • Yes, that's true. But you have to consider controlled Nagato was fast enough to warp to B after Shinra Tenseiing him away. Not as fast as the real Nagato would be but as Naruto already said controlled Edo Nagato was on a different level than the 6 Paths themselves. So Itachi's sword's speed should be easily sufficient. Only Deva Path Pain with Chibaku Tensei should pose a true threat to him here. So with knowledge it comes down to Itachi vs Deva Path and who lands either Chibaku Tensei or SoT first. Without knowledge the chances tilt to Deva Paths favor as he can wear down Itachi's chakra some before using Chibaku Tensei.

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    • @Halyconite: It being etheral doesn't mean that Shinra Tensei would disintegrate it on contact. It doesn't make a difference if Kabuto was in control or not, he knew about Shinra Tensei, but decided not to use it. If you were right it would have been safer for Kabuto use it.

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    • @Flatzone idk how getting behind Bee after Bee was thrown in the air is that much a speed feat. It's fast, sure, but Rock Lee and Sasuke both have appeared behind opponents after launching them away.

      Anyways, I personally think Deva Path can Shinra Tensei an attack from the Totsuka Blade. Things don't have to be physical for Shinra Tensei to work, considering Pain repelled Lightning Dog from Kakashi.

      Though in the end, I think Itachi could take down a few paths with him easy. I think Pain wins pretty much all fights against Itachi, but I think Itachi does just about as well as Jiraiya did.

      @BrainBrand the point is Kabuto could not use Nagato's abilities to their fullest; not even close. So while he may have been able to us it, he may simply not have thought to use it in time.

      Essentially, Kabuto's playing a video game, but he started out with an OP character. Just because the character is OP, doesn't mean Kabuto knows the controls properly yet. So he won't use his abilities to the fullest, obviously.

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    • He blasted them away with Shinra Tensei, which as you should already know has an extremely effect, you can even see the trees zooming away along with B, yet Nagato who's legs are still an issue was still able to use enough speed to warp behind B who was zooming away thanks to Shinra Tensei.. he did that all while an Edo. Naruto already said that controlled Edo Nagato is on a different level than the 6PoP anyway. Itachi will get down to Deva Path and it will come down to who lands SoT or Chibaku Tensei first

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    • Trees zooming isn't very impressive, it's anime. The background zooms half the time. So no, I don't find it that impressive. Like I said, it's fast, but it's not some big indicator.

      Naruto saying that he was on a different level makes sense because Nagato can use evry Path himself, and simultaneously as well.

      I don't think Itachi fares better than Sage Mode Jiraiya. Itachi just doesn't have the power and stamina to fight long enough to figure out Pain's secret. Nor does he have powerful summons to deal with Pain's summons and any MS tech is a huge drain on Itachi's chakra.

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    • Itachi can just switch with a clone and attack any body he wants with them unaware.

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    • BrainBrand wrote: Itachi can just switch with a clone and attack any body he wants with them unaware.

      How exactly can he catch them unaware with their shared vision?

      What attack is he gonna pull off that's both powerful enough to put down a Pain or two while leaving him enough stamina to not be vulnerable for a few moments after the fact and also have enough gas to put down more?

      And that's assuming he gets lucky and puts down the Pain that revives them, who Pain would probably protect at all costs anyways.

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    • @Squinty97: Shared vision only means they see more, it doesn't improve their reaction time.

      Simple shurikens or kunais should be enough to kill some Pain bodies, if their caught unaware. Also there's Magatamas.

      He can target the problematic Pains, like Naraka and Deva

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    • If you can see something sooner, then yes it improves your reaction time lol.

      Simple shuriken and kunai couldn't even kill Iruka in Part 1, how are they going to kill Pain's bodies that won't even feel it?

      You're assuming he knows which ones are problematic off the bat.

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    • It doesn't see things that are too fast to see, no matter if they share vision or not.

      If kunai stabs their vital areas, their dead. The Pain bodies still can die, regardless if they can feel or not.

      It doesn't really matter. 4 Magatamas would take care of 4 bodies. Odds are he would kill the right one and even if he didn't. Naraka wouldn't have the time to revive them, with only 2 bodies left.


      Also doesn't seem Naraka can revive a Pain that taken too much damage, as he didn't revive human path, who was just half a head at that point.

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    • BrainBrand wrote: It doesn't see things that are too fast to see, no matter if they share vision or not.

      If kunai stabs their vital areas, their dead. The Pain bodies still can die, regardless if they can feel or not.

      It doesn't really matter. 4 Magatamas would take care of 4 bodies. Odds are he would kill the right one and even if he didn't. Naraka wouldn't have the time to revive them, with only 2 bodies left.


      Also doesn't seem Naraka can revive a Pain that taken too much damage, as he didn't revive human path, who was just half a head at that point.

      "Too fast to see" So now Itachi can attack faster than Pain can see?

      Yeah, the Akamichi's crushed the Asura Path into the ground (vitals and all) and the Asura path still got up and ran in front of Kakashi's Raikiri.

      4 Magatamas could literally just be repelled. Or absorbed considering they're Ninjutsu

      The Naraka Path can't revive someone who's half a head because there's not enough there to revive, but it can revive someone who's crushed into a pulp. So even if a Magatama actually worked, it's a tech that essentially explodes on impact. The Path wouldn't be sliced in half, there still would be enough there to revive.

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    • Itachi was able to substitute faster than Sage Mode Kabuto could sense and faster than Kakashi could see.

      You got a point, Asura likely wouldn't be killed by kunai.

      They won't be repelled or absorbed if pain doesn't see them.

      If Amaterasu burns a Pain body to ashes it won't be able to be revived.

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    • Faster than Kakashi could see is impressive, but this is Pain.

      The substitute against Kabuto, was that a substitute? I thought that was just a crow clone from the get go. I don't see how it's a substitute.

      How is Pain not going to notice a massive chakra construct throwing big pieces of chakra at them?

      Preta Path walks over and sucks Amaterasu off because Amaterasu burns slow.

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    • It was definitely a substitute. If you look at the panel where Itachi starts running at Kabuto, he has part of Susanoo still over his head, so it had to have been the real Itachi.

      If Itachi attacks Pain from behind, they won't see him.

      Amaterasu didn't burn slow against The Rock toad, so it can burn faster if needed.

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    • The fandom loves to ignore Itachi's best feats, so of course they will ignore the time Itachi had to save him and Kisame's lives by instantly burning from the inside out through a fire breathing toads stomach. Itachi can control the speed and temperature that Amaterasu burns, he just can't add shape manipulation to it like Kagutsuchi

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    • @BrainBrand,

      Susanoo can be used by clones for one. For another, Itachi could run at Kabuto but substitute out before he got close.

      Kakashi attacked a Pain from behind and another one just looked at him lol. They're not all just going to look in one direction during a fight, that would defeat the advantage of having multiple views.

      What rock toad are you talking about?

      @Flatzone again, the toad being a fire-breathing toad doesn't make it impressive, since Amaterasu will burn anything regardless of what it is. And stomach lining isn't super thick, so burning through wouldn't have been too much of an issue.

      And no one is ignoring it. Look, it's acknowledged. Would you acknowledge that that's literally Amaterasu's first and fastest burning feat and it never burns that quickly ever again, even when used by a far superior user of the technique who has more power? Lol I mean probably not.

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    • Where is proof that Sasuke can do the same? He can add shape manipulation and Itachi can't sure but that's it, while Itachi can control the speed and temp of Amaterasu's burning and Sasuke can't.

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    • @Squinty97

      It's highly unlikely that Itachi would create a clone with Susanoo, just so it can release Susanoo in the next second. Not only was Sasuke surprised when the clone was stabbed, but Kabuto said this "I warned you what would happen if your too eager." indicating they thought it was the real Itachi. Why would he care if he stabbed a clone, if he knew it was a clone?

      If itachi did substitute out before he got close, Kabuto still didn't recognize when he substituted.

      All the Pains would be looking forward if the only enemy is forward. It actually hurts their defense, because one or two of them would be more vulnerable.

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    • @Flatzone seriously? If you think Itachi can do anything with Amaterasu that Sasuke can't, idk what to tell you lol.

      @BrainBrand it's called deception lol. And I'm not saying Kabuto knew. I'm saying the reason he didn't know is because Itachi might have done it farther away from him rather than up close.

      ........... You realize when Kakashi was fighting Pain, they were only fighting Kakashi when they covered for each other?

      Idk how I'm even having this discussion, idk how you think that they're all going to look exactly the same direction, therefore nullifying their entire advantage lol.

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    • @Squinty97 What does Itachi being further away have to do with Kabuto not being able to tell Itachi substituted?

      When the 3 Pains first showed up fighting Jiraiya, they were all facing him. When the Pains were first fighting Naruto and Tsunade they were all facing toward them too.

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    • brain youre delusional with your points, first you say that pain would be taken down by KUNAI... then you said that pain wont notice a fat susanoo with a huge sword and magtama beads.. and now youre saying that all the pains will just stare off in the same direction. lol i love itachi but stop wanking him youre ruining him for me

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    • Until Sasuke shows the same feat then no he can't do the same thing as Itachi with Amaterasu. Just like until Itachi shows shape manipulation with Amaterasu then he can't use that with Amaterasu himself.

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    • Is there any reason Pain bodies other than Asura realm can't be killed kunais, if caught unaware?

      Well if the Susanoo is behind them than yeah they won't notice it.

      I just gave 2 examples of Pain bodies all staring in the same direction. They don't automatically turn their bodies turned in every direction, every time they face someone.

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    • dude, catching pain unaware is more ridiculous than the kunai. itachi is one dude theyre gonna keep their eyes on him the whole time as well as with all the summonings. thats like me saying that itachi could be killed by kunai, even if he didnt have susanoo. its just so ridiculous, theyre not lowlevel ninja

      saying pain wont notice susanoo is stupid im not even gonna reply to that

      they turn their heads all the time dude. when jiraiya sneaked out of the toad barrier they were all looking in opposite directions, until jiraiya threw a big shuriken at one and they dodged, and then all six immediately came down to stare at jiraiya. boom i have an example for a point thats so dumb it doesnt even need to be argued

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    • Not even gonna lie. Itachi might be good at Shurikeninjutsu, but the whole Kunai to the eye thing was all plot. We've been shown time and time again that the Shared Vision between the paths make them nearly untouchable. But them being blinded by Kunai? That's even more illogical. If they took Kunai to their bodies, I could understand them being hit, but to the eyes? No way at all.

      Anyway, they bodies can't be killed because they aren't alive for 1. For 2, they can't feel pain so a single Kunai won't do much if anything. 3. Durability. We saw a Kurama controlled Naruto pound Pain into the ground and smack him around with great force and it did absolutely nothing in terms of damage to Pain. He could easily no-sell a Kunai with no damage with the way out of control Naruto was pounding on him.

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    • @Frisbo If Itachi switches places with a clone, than yes he can catch them unaware. Just, because there is several of them doesn't mean they well be able to follow him. Just, because there's 6 of them doesn't mean they would be able to keep their eye on Itachi. Didn't the 5 kage lose sight of Madara, when he switched places with a clone, even though all 5 of them were watching them? If kunai couldn't kill high level ninja, high level ninja wouldn't use them with the intention to kill.

      Once isn't all the time. It's like what I said "They don't automatically turn their bodies in every direction, every time they face someone". And they certainly wouldn't do it, if they believe the original Itachi is right in front of them.

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    • oh my lord i cant believe what im reading. itachi cant catch them unaware, if he switches places and tries to attack theywill spot him. THEY HAVE SIX PAIRS OF EYES. and that isnt even including the summonings dude, why are you backing this dead horse of an argument

      the kage only lost sight of madara because of the flower jutsu, they got distracted. and it doesnt even matter because they arent linked by vision, pain is, the pains usually face different directions when theyre scouting for their opponent

      pain could literally summon the ox, the ram, the chameleon, the bird, the centipede and more at the same time, itachi aint getting anywhere near pain without them noticing

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    • You obviously don't know what BrainBrand is talking about. Read the manga again. They didn't lose sight him, because of the flower jutsu, they simply lost sight of him.

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    • as if that matters anyways, i didnt need that example to explain that pain can avoid itachi catching him offguard. and the 5 kage dont have linked vision, so thats a trash comparison.

      okay brain, if a kunai can work according to you, then pain can kill itachi with a chakra rod. deva path will bansho tenin itachi towards him and stab him in the face, just like he did to grampa toad, and now itachi's dead.

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    • Just like when shared vision stopped Jiraiya catching Pain off guard, when he blitzed Pain, right?

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    • let’s talk about all the times where Jiraiya actually hit Pain right? By the way, they all werent attacks that caught Pain offguard

      First time was when the human path charged at jiraiya and kicked it back. That wasnt offguard, because Pain initiated the assault in the first place lol

      Second time was when Jiraiya was finally able to hit the animal path right before they were caught in Frog Song. Reason why was because the Human path had actually lost its shared vision so it couldnt protect the Animal path, and the Preta path was busy facing the other way to stop one of jiraiya’s clone’s fire jutsu.

      Third time was when all the Pains were briefly fighting jiraiya with taijutsu, and jiraiya sped up to hit the deva path. how did that catch pain offguard when it was blocked perfectly? Deva path even smiled at Jiraiya lmao do you think he even struggled at that?

      Its like you guys dont wanna give Pain any feats. According to you, pains shared vision just doesnt work, pain can be killed by shuriken and kunai, if itachi uses totsuka blade, pain will just stand there and watch the pretty view before it gets hit. Heck, you might as well say that instead of shinra tensei, deva will use bansho tenin on magatama, just for fun.

      Jeez seriously guys, ignore more feats PLEASE

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    • Wait so, human realm didn't get blitzed and blinded by a kick in the face?

      Ignoring feats, huh? Let's talk about all the feats you ignored. Human path sharing vision with Animal path didn't stop him from getting surprised by Nomi Yuma, did it? Or how about when Kakashi switched places with a clone, did shared vision, notice that. Or how about when Itachi threw kunai and blinded Nagato's summons, did share vision stop that from happening?

      And Jiraiya never sped up to hit Deva Pain in the manga.

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    • oh my lord READ. Human path didn’t get blitzed by a SURPRISE attack, thats what this whole argument was about.

      The asura path wasnt even there when kakashi switched places with a clone, it was just deva, asura joined later wtf are you talking about. Kakashi switched his clone right after deva used shinra tensei on kakashi. pain literally had a whole flashback explaining it

      I aint gonna repeat what halconite said earlier about the edo fight dude, you keep ignoring feats, all the “feats” you mentioned are refutable. Itachi could throw kunai at the summons because they were focused on naruto and killer bee.

      And your last point about jiraiya not speeding up only helps me. But this thread is bs, you guys whip up some obscure ass evidence from the databooks and the novels, but i cant use anime content? Smh

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    • This thread is gonna outlive all of us lmao

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    • Oh yes he did. If human path wasn't surprised, he has a funny way of showing it.

      That's just an excuse, the whole point of Kabuto's speech about Itachi is shared vision was suppose to stop Itachi.

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    • @Hal. XXDDD

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    • that was just jiraiya countering his attack. that isnt a surprise attack. A surprise attack is one you don’t see coming. Pretty sure human path saw jiraiya’s foot coming to his face before he took the L.

      pain probs assumed hed get an easy attack off because he thought jiraiya was distracted by the toads talking in his ears.

      “That’s just an excuse” LOOOOOOOOL i dont believe it. so this whole thread where you guys were arguing that itachi could use kunai to kill pain, just because its a ninja weapon, wasnt an excuse? or the time where you or brain said that itachi can catch pain unaware despite the shared vision, providing no reason other than he just can, was that not an excuse? or the time where you said itachi could still use genjutsu on pain despite the crazy amount of evidence against it, and your only argument for that was that tsukuyomi is different to other genjutsu, was that not an excuse?

      your argument falls apart when i use “that’s an excuse” against you, along with sheer ignorance and “but plot”

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    • What is this based on? What evidence suggests, he saw the kick coming? Ignore what Kabuto said if you want to. Also 2 points:


      1. We don't know where the chameleon was looking at after Pain grabbed Bee.

      2. Chameleons have much wider range of vision than humans, so yeah it's an excuse on your part.

      Let me ask you a question, can a Pain body be killed by a ninja weapon if stabbed by it? Read Brain's posts again, he provided a reason. What crazy amount of evidence against genjutsu working on Pain? I don't even remember the Tsukuyomi point.

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    • its not the same madeyes, it wasnt a surprise attack, i cant believe i have to actually explain this to you. Pain started the fight, im pretty sure it wouldnt surprise you if the person you were fighting, fights back....

      also enlighten me on what kabuto said, word for word, because i rewatched the entire fight and i certainly cant find it

      anyways, that isnt even what we were talking about earlier, there was the idea that itachi could pull off a surprise attack against pain + summons.

      We do know where the chameleon was looking at after pain grabbed bee. Obviously not at itachi. If both the chameleon and the king of hell were looking at itachi, then the exact same thing would have happened like bee, nagato would have taken measures to counter it. examples could be that he’d thrust naruto or bee in the way of the susanoo, or he’d use shinra tensei against itachi/the kunai that itachi threw.

      the chameleon fact is some science bs you pulled outta nowhere to prove your point. are you a chameleon? Do you know their eyesight firsthand to use it as a form of evidence? When the chameleon saw bee, it acted like a normal eye as its pupil moved and fixated on bee.

      can itachi be killed by a chakra rod if stabbed by it? read my post again, i proved a reason. Thats how dumb your weapon argument is, i can do the same thing.

      its not only the amount of evidence that makes an argument viable but the quality. if the infinite tsukuyomi, a stronger and higher scale version of the regular Tsukuyomi (confirmed by the naruto wiki and manga in terms of their description) is resisted by the rinnegan, what makes you think a weaker version would? And if we’re talking about pain and not nagato, then the visual genjutsu wouldnt work anyways, how would it travel through the chakra threads to nagato?

      The only reason the frog sound genjutsu jiraiya used worked on pain is because the rinnegan is an eye, which means it would only resist things associated with sight, not sound.

      ngl im sick of repeating this stuff, might retire soon idk, depends if your answer is good or not

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    • Correct me if I'm wrong, but your the one who said Animal path saw the kick coming, right? Now that I ask for evidence, you say that it's not the same. I can't say I didn't expect something like this.

      That doesn't mean the chameleon wasn't looking in his general direction.

      Chameleons don't have the restriction of a deep orbital socket and they can rotate their eyes nearly 180 each, which is what gives them their wide range of vision.

      Simply calling my argument dumb isn't even a proper rebuttal.

      Weren't you the one who said there's a "crazy" amount of evidence against genjutsu working against Pain? And know you're saying the amount of evidence doesn't matter. No it's not confirmed, lol. And Sasuke's Rinnegan resisting Infinite Tsukuyomi doesn't mean Nagato can resist MS genjutsu.

      By all means retire.

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    • MadEyes008 wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but your the one who said Animal path saw the kick coming, right? Now that I ask for evidence, you say that it's not the same. I can't say I didn't expect something like this.

      That doesn't mean the chameleon wasn't looking in his general direction.

      Chameleons don't have the restriction of a deep orbital socket and they can rotate their eyes nearly 180 each, which is what gives them their wide range of vision.

      Simply calling my argument dumb isn't even a proper rebuttal.

      Weren't you the one who said there's a "crazy" amount of evidence against genjutsu working against Pain? And know you're saying the amount of evidence doesn't matter. No it's not confirmed, lol. And Sasuke's Rinnegan resisting Infinite Tsukuyomi doesn't mean Nagato can resist MS genjutsu.

      By all means retire.

      I am mostly basing this on theory however I find no solid reason ANY type of Genjutsu would work against Pain. I mean obviously their eyes cannot counter Genjutsu themselves, including Visual Genjutsu, but still Nagato is an external party that would have no reason to ba affected/tricked by Genjutsu and so can just use his Chakra through them and escape it.

      Obviously there would be exceptions. The Tsukuyomi of the Mangekyo Sharingan is by definition the second most poweful Genjutsu in existence and I doubt Nagato's Chakra can free any Pain from that. Also, shouldn't any Rinnegan user (Obito, Nagato, Sasuke, Madara) be immune to the effects of the Infinite Tsukuyomi? You know since it is supposed to turn your eyes into Rinnegan and all?

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    • Alright, since youre being sassy, im gonna have to put you in your place lol

      i did say that the animal path saw the kick coming, because they literally did. You're asking evidence for something that you can use your own eyes to see, they got kicked in the face. And just because I said it isn't the same, its not that I couldn't come up with evidence, its just that it didnt apply to our current debate. "I can't say I didn't expect something like this" ooo burn.

      It does mean that the chameleon wasnt looking in his general direction. Think. If it did see Itachi, it would have alerted Nagato. Even if Itachi threw kunai at eyes that were staring at him, they still would have seen him, meaning that Nagato would be aware of their presence. That's the evidence. They didn't see Itachi.

      If amplified 180 degree vision through the chameleon was a feat that Nagato or any Rinnegan user had, it would have emphasised it in the manga. But I don't see anything suggesting that.

      Sorry do you want me to spell it out for you? Even though I have explained repeatedly why your weapon argument is dumb? Pain/Nagato literally has a bajillion ways to counter a kunai/shuriken. Be it dodging, using shared vision, shinra tensei, flinging it back at itachi with bansho tenin, summons taking the hit, wind style (in the case of nagato) etc. If one of my points were that Itachi would be beaten by kunai from Pain, I can guarantee you would disagree. That's why I used my chakra rod argument to suggest how dumb it was, and even chakra rods have more utility than kunai.

      Highlight where I explicitly said the amount of evidence didn't matter. I said it isn't "ONLY" the amount that matters, but quality as well. Again, read.

      Throughout the series, the Rinnegan's ocular prowess has been praised as the greatest of the dojutsu, and this includes feats of resisting genjutsu and detecting when specific ocular abilities are activated. Itachi even said himself that visual genjutsu is weak towards dojutsus. The characteristic of a genjutsu/ocular ability being activated is chakra rushing to the eyeball. Even the most subtlest and arguably the strongest smallscale genjutsu can be detected, kotoamatsukami, and that was done by a byakugan user at the Kage Summit. Madara showed the same ability with his Rinnegan, watching Might Guy from over 100 ft away, examining his entire chakra network. So there is NO reason why Nagato/Pain could not preemptively avoid a genjutsu from Itachi by examining his chakra network to see if there is a build up of chakra in the eye ball. Nagato even warned Naruto against an ocular ability about to occur just before Itachi used kotoamatsukami. Before the technique was used, Nagato mistook it for Amaterasu on Naruto, and warned Naruto, and Itachi was facing away from Nagato. So we know that Nagato sees chakra building up in the eyeball.

      Judging from the lack of evidence you're providing for IT and Tsukuyomi, I'd say it is at least confirmed in this discussion lmao. You only say "they're different" and expect me to take your word for it, as if that suffices. I factchecked halyconite and the naruto wiki pages share an identical description of IT and Tsukuyomi. A genjutsu that "traps the user in an illusion" be it a dream, or one of those torture places Itachi used. So logically it would take the same steps to resist it/dispel it. Secondly, Sasuke was able to resist a much larger scale version with his Rinnegan, which would explain why Nagato/Pain should resist a much smaller scale version.

      Moreover, Sasuke's Rinnegan resisting IT would not differ to any Rinnegan user resisting IT. The only difference between Sasuke's Rinnegan and Nagato's is the tomoe, and you're assuming that that is what gives Sasuke the resistance. Wrong. Sasuke's tomoe only allow him to use his Mangekyou abilities in the left eye as well, and also shows whether he is at full power or not. When he is low on chakra, his tomoe disappear and he can no longer use his teleportation ability. When he is high on chakra, the tomoe reappear. So no, in terms of resistances, it is not different to Nagato's.

      Its also been emphasised earlier that Infinite Tsukuyomi "is a Senjutsu powered Rinne Sharingan Genjutsu that does not need eye contact nor physical touch to work". If the Rinnegan can resist a genjutsu from a dojutsu that is vastly superior to a generic mangekyou sharingan, why on earth would it not resist a much weaker version of essentially the same technique, that is amped by less factors? Logically, it makes zero sense.

      There you got your dissertation

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    • Damn you guys are still going at it. I know I said I wouldn't post again but eh. I feel like even if Tsukuyomi worked, which I doubt, wouldn't Nagato just disconnect from the path and reconnect again, kind of like unplugging a computer? Lol.

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    • You really put me in my place. I'm really feeling it.

      If Animal Path saw the kick coming, than how did he get kicked in the face and blinded?

      I didn't say he saw Itachi, just that he could have been looking in his general direction. Itachi was up hiding in trees apparently.


      So this super powered chameleon in the manga, can't even do what regular chameleons can?


      Shared Vision and all those other methods are useless if they don't know where the real Itachi is, because they think a clone is the real Itachi. Caught unaware, all those methods you mentioned are useless. And before you say they'll just look in all directions, that's ridiculous. They have no reason to look all directions if they believe they're opponent is front of them.


      Funny, I only remember the Rinnegan's being resistant towards specific genjutsu and it was Sasuke's Rinnegan who resisted it at that. It's also funny that neither Sasuke or Kakashi could preemptively tell that Itachi was about to use a genjutsu, and both of them have the sharingan. Nagato was able to feel when Amaterasu was about to be used, however he didn't see the chakra being built up, he sensed it. Also Amaterasu has a decent amount of build up time, sharingan genjutsu doesn't.

      No they aren't identical. Does it say Infinite Tsukuyomi can control the perception of time, in a matter of seconds? Do you mean trap the victim in a illusion? If so, saying their similar since they both trap the victim in an illusion is ridiculous, because 90% of all genjutsu trap the victim in a illusion. If you actually meant they both trap the user of these genjutsu, I don't see where it says that.

      What evidence is there for this statement you made: "Sasuke's tomoe only allow him to use his Mangekyou abilities in the left eye as well"?

      You may have a point if Infinite Tsukuyomi was an upraded version of Tsukuyomi. IT hasn't shown the ability to manipulate time. IT isn't closely related to Tsukuyomi, not a single person suggested it.

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    • You can still see an attack coming and still be hit by it. Surprise attacks are ones you don't see coming. The reason why its not a surprise attack is because Pain was the one attacking in the first place, Jiraiya just retaliated. Not the definition of a surprise attack.

      Regardless if Itachi was hiding in trees or not, The summons didnt see Itachi.

      So are we creating feats that haven't been proven in the manga randomly? The chameleon was never said to have this feat, so it doesn't. Stop creating feats to back up your arguments.

      Are you hearing yourself? How are the methods I listed useless? Are you saying that Pain can't use Shinra Tensei on a Shuriken/Kunai? That its too fast for them? The point we were having was whether Pain could be hit by kunai, not about Itachi's clone.

      Jiraiya literally threw a giant shuriken at the Asura path as a surprise attack, and Asura dodged it perfectly. Pain was also quick enough to summon a Panda which could take the hits of jiraiya's needle hair jutsu, so it can probably tank the shuriken and kunai that go towards them, and Pain did this pretty quickly too. So if for some stupid reason Pain can't just dodge them with shared vision like they normally do, because thats what you're trying to say, then Pain can use all its other methods as well.

      The Rinnegan still has the feat of seeing chakra networks. If Madara can see Guy's network from at least 100 ft away in detail, then Nagato should be able to see the build-up in Itachi's eyeball, and we know this is a possible way to see someone using ocular abilities as its been explained in the manga. Even still, Nagato's sensory abilities is just another feat for his ability to avoid genjutsu. And Itachi didn't even use Amaterasu at that time, he used Kotoamatsukami, which is what Nagato actually detected, so Nagato was still able to detect it building up.

      Your point about 90% of genjutsu being the same is irrelevant, because my original point was that the Rinnegan resists visual genjutsu anyways, including these 90%. It is fact that Tsukuyomi and Infinite Tsukuyomi are functionally identical, not identical in every way, as they both trap the user in an illusion, which means it would take similar means to resist such a thing, whereas Koto is functionally different to this. And for the 1000th time, the fact that the Rinnegan could resist IT logically means that it would resist a much weaker genjutsu of the same functionality.

      "After receiving half of Hagoromo's chakra from his spirit, Sasuke awakened a Rinnegan in his left eye, which contains three tomoe on its two innermost circles for a total of six. In addition to the Rinnegan's power, this eye retains the abilities of Sasuke's left Mangekyō Sharingan, including the ability to cast ocular genjutsu and use Amaterasu.[14][15] If Sasuke overuses the power of his Rinnegan, his ocular power will temporarily diminish, causing the tomoe in his Rinnegan to vanish until his full power returns. During this time, he is also seemingly unable to activate his right eye's Mangekyō Sharingan or use Susanoo."

      -- From the Naruto Wiki, which has provided evidence from the manga.

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