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  • Who takes this and why?

    Mindset-Bloodlust Location-Fourth Great Shinobi World War

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    • I didn't understand what base Naruto we're talking about. If we're talking about base Naruto before meeting Hagoromo, not using the KCM, Jiraiya probably takes the win. Naruto after receiving the buff...Mehh it's kinda tricky, we didn't see much of base Naruto did we? I really don't know if his base version received much of a buff, i hope someone that does know joins this discussion.

      In an actual fight, Naruto would beat him by entering just KCM, but base Naruto, even his Hokage version, didn't show any feats that show that he's clearly stronger than Jiraiya, but he does have massive chakra reserves and can heal etc so i think Jiraiya would lose if he doesn't enter sage mode, if he does, his chances are a lot better but it can still go either way.

      I have to point out that i didn't really watch Boruto, only a few episodes and the movie some time ago, so i don't know what base Hokage Naruto is capable of so feel free to correct me.

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    • Base Naruto could block hits from merged Momoshiki. He could also easily form, throw, and guide Rasenshuriken with one hand while midair. I'd say Naruto takes it.

      @Lolislayer the OP means Naruto as Hokage, but not using SM or KCM or SPSM

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    • Does Jiraiya have access to SM?

      'Cause if he doesn't, then I'd give it to Naruto.

      If he does... well, he could only block so many hits from Momoshiki before he had to use whatever form he used (KCM or SPSM?)... so if it's just Base Naruto vs Jiraiya who has access to SM, then Jiraiya takes it.

      But if Jiraiya does have access to a power-up, then he obviously win, so what's the point of this vs debate?

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    • Base Naruto wrecks, regardless if Jiraiya is in SM or not. Naruto pressures Jiraiya with clones and pins him with a Rasenshuriken or a Ultra Big Ball Rasengan to the face.

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    • Yeah but SM Jiraiya can do an Ultra Big Ball Rasengan too, and SM would most likely give him the ability to tank Naruto's attacks a couple of times. Clones can be drowned by a Goemon. Jiraiya's also got fire/wind/earth/water style jutsus, he's got the frog's genjutsu.

      You're putting a guy who's got a variety of jutsu, plus, with sage mode, the ability of punching someone and flinging them away from the impact, vs a guy who can multiply himself and do variations of that one same technique.

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    • David Kibasennin wrote: Yeah but SM Jiraiya can do an Ultra Big Ball Rasengan too, and SM would most likely give him the ability to tank Naruto's attacks a couple of times. Clones can be drowned by a Goemon. Jiraiya's also got fire/wind/earth/water style jutsus, he's got the frog's genjutsu.

      You're putting a guy who's got a variety of jutsu, plus, with sage mode, the ability of punching someone and flinging them away from the impact, vs a guy who can multiply himself and do variations of that one same technique.

      Naruto's version is much more powerful considering that he pretty much created one that blasted through the stump of a shinju and carried Momoshiki all the way to the upper atmosphere of a planet. A single Rasenshuriken would one-shot Jiraiya, badly damaging him and crippling his chakra network. A single buffed up Ultra Big-Ball Rasengan or a Rasenshuriken would do Jiraiya in. What is Goemon going to do against a clone rush from multiple directions? Jiraiya's only chance at winning is Frog Song (or Frog Call, whichever is the sound genjutsu), any other technique would be dodged, countered, or tanked.

      From his brief fight against Momoshiki, it can be said that base Naruto is at the very least on par with SM Jiraiya in terms of strength, speed, durability, and taijutsu. Jiraiya may have the greater versatility, but Naruto's rather limited arsenal (in base) is more than enough to deal with Jiraiya.

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    • Yeah, but OP said that he doesn't have access to SPSM, and I'm assuming he also meant he doesn't have access to SP chakra in general. So Shinju-cutting Rasengans aren't gonna happen.

      Keep in mind, Sage Mode gives you the strength to lift giant statues without flinching. Jiraiya messed up one of the Pains with just a kick, and punched that Giant Bull away like it was nothing. I doubt a big ball rasengan would one-shot him.

      The Rasenshuriken *might* as he wouldn't expect it to be thrown, but he would have intel on its effects, so he'd know to doge it asap.

      If he's clone rushed, he'll needle jizo, or trap them in a frog's stomach, and THEN use Goemon. If each of them uses a rasengan (they wouldn't use a Big Ball Rasengan, because they could do that was against Kyubi in SM), he'll counter with a Big Ball Rasengan, and wipe most of them out, and tank the damage of those who get past it (because he's in SM).

      Jiraiya's chakra is pretty high too, though not in huge quantities like Naruto's.

      Also, I rewatched Naruto vs Momoshiki. Sure, he was blocking a few hits, but Momoshiki soon wiped the floor with him. Again, Jiraiya in SM has superhuman strength. Anyone in SM has superhuman strength.

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    • @David

      He doesn't need SPSM to use as much power as he did. Whenever Naruto uses SP chakra, his eyes change. They didn't in that instance, so that was his own power.

      Naruto can block hits from merged Momshiki, so SM Jiraiya isn't much to him. Jiraiya can't even use Frog Kata, which requires SM mastery.

      Considering Naruto can form, throw, and guide Rasenshuriken with one arm midair casually, it might be hard for Jiraiya to dodge. Pain lost a body when Naruto needed shadow clones to make it. Who knows how hard it would be to dodge without all that telegraphing.

      Frogs Stomch would burst from clones, or be cut open with Wind Release. Needle Jizo would be crushed by sheer numbers. And they most likely could at least use big ball Rasengan because you're pulling a feat from when Naruto was 16 years old. He's a grown man now

      Merged Momoshiki has higher strength than just Sage Mode lol, so blocking hits from Momshiki is more impressive than anything Jiraiya can do.

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    • David Kibasennin wrote: Yeah, but OP said that he doesn't have access to SPSM, and I'm assuming he also meant he doesn't have access to SP chakra in general. So Shinju-cutting Rasengans aren't gonna happen.

      Keep in mind, Sage Mode gives you the strength to lift giant statues without flinching. Jiraiya messed up one of the Pains with just a kick, and punched that Giant Bull away like it was nothing. I doubt a big ball rasengan would one-shot him.

      The Rasenshuriken *might* as he wouldn't expect it to be thrown, but he would have intel on its effects, so he'd know to doge it asap.

      If he's clone rushed, he'll needle jizo, or trap them in a frog's stomach, and THEN use Goemon. If each of them uses a rasengan (they wouldn't use a Big Ball Rasengan, because they could do that was against Kyubi in SM), he'll counter with a Big Ball Rasengan, and wipe most of them out, and tank the damage of those who get past it (because he's in SM).

      Jiraiya's chakra is pretty high too, though not in huge quantities like Naruto's.

      Also, I rewatched Naruto vs Momoshiki. Sure, he was blocking a few hits, but Momoshiki soon wiped the floor with him. Again, Jiraiya in SM has superhuman strength. Anyone in SM has superhuman strength.

      The OP clearly referred to current Naruto with his modes restricted. This doesn't restrict the SP boost to his base. So, the Shinju-stump-busting Rasengan is still in play

      Increased strength has nothing to do with durability. Like I said before, a souped up UBBR or a Rasenshuriken is one-shotting Jiraiya

      The frogs have no intell on the Rasenshuriken's effects and Naruto can guide them as well as make more. He can form a Rasenshuriken nearly as fast if not, just as fast, as a he forms a Rasengan.

      Naruto can make at least a thousand clones. Jiraiya may be able to get a few of them, but he's surely not getting all of them. Why are you applying the limits of a younger and weaker Naruto to his older and much stronger self? Clone rush + Rasengan or Rasenshuriken spam = A dead SM Jiraiya

      Jiraiya having a lot of chakra is completely irrelevant

      You are flat out ignoring the fact that Naruto reacted to Momoshiki who blitzed the other Kages in the spam of time it took for the Shinju ttunk to fall down (which wasn't long). Nothing indicates that SM Jiraiya wouod do just as well against Momoshiki. You are overrating strength. Everyone has superhuman strength, it's just that the strength of a SM user is boosted. Even if SM Jiraiya is stronger than Naruto, it wouldn't even matter much since he'll quickly be overwhelmed

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    • jiraiya. frog song

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    • Senjutsu Sage wrote: jiraiya. frog song

      Needs too much prep, Naruto slices him in half or blows him up before Jiraiya can activate it.

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    • nah it's his sage mode that takes a lot of prep. and even if. you forget how jiraiya is with his summoning toads? naruto strong as hell now. he isn't going to treat him like a kid anymore

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    • @Senjutsu Sage read the fight again. Even after deciding to use Frog Song, Jiraiya needs to stall for a long time before they're ready.

      I don't forget how Jiraiya is with summoning toads. But those toads struggle against Pain's summons. And you can ask Pain's summons how fast 16 y old Sage Naruto blew through them. Base Hokage Naruto is stronger, as seen with his feats against Momshiki and his feats with his own Rasenshuriken.

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    • i'm pretty sure they just started croaking. what chap or which ep again?

      lool, those summons were mindless and had no tactic. they just ran at naruto and all other opponents they were summoned to face. that was too easy for the superhuman naruto is in sage mode. if any summon was really cheeky was the dog summoning. and i don't think naruto faced the centipede. true that but i really think frog song comes in play, rendering naruto immobile for jiraiya to take it. unless your right with what you said about needing prep to do it (frog song).

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    • It's on the page of Frog Song with references about the prep it needs

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    • went and watched the ep. doesn't take long to execute. it takes a while to effect it's target cause of melody and rhythm requirements

      https://youtu.be/-OFoSN5_7CQ

      skip to 39:30^

      i think jiraiya could fend naruto off within that time. his summoning toads would surely help. plus jiraiya isn't lacking in the intelligence department and is a trickster pretty much like naruto

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    • It takes awhile to take effect because Ma and Pa need awhile to get their harmonies correct. This is only after they mould enough chakra to use it.

      So Naruto, who could even hold off with Merged Momshiki in Taijutsu briefly, who can also form, throw, and guide a Rasnshuriken midair and with one hand, can't beat Jiraiya, who needs a lot of prep to use Sage Mode, which wouldn't even be as strong as base Naruto, and also needs prep for Frog Song.

      I'm not following the logic.

      Also just watched the clip. How do you get any sense of time from that? The clip fades out and back in, which indicates some passage of time but not how much.

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    • well that's what i said @first part of your sentence

      can you only do one summoning at a time or multiple if you please? well considering kakashi. okay then:

      looool. you might follow this logic though.

      if naruto clone emasculates the area and looks to attack jiraiya this would be ultimately bad. but considering you said yk how jiraiya is with his summoning toads i'm not putting out the question that he can summon all the same toads that helped teen naruto fight pain. and ma and pa. atop gamabunta or gamakin he can have ma and pa do the song (till it eventually takes affect). naruto isn't within op rules to use sage mode (i think) and ik yk that the mountain toads in themselves are sages. and you'd agree to an extent that they are skillful and seasoned and resilient enough to hold naruto and his clones off for a time. let's not also forget though how base momo kicked naruto away like nothing and merged momo used the gentle fist type style of fighting in those moments your referring to with him and naruto (why weren't his chakra points cut off though?).

      anyway, jiraiya has good amounts of methods of holding naruto off till the song takes effect. just like naruto he can also use the clone technique. this signifies toad combination attacks (with all of them simultaneous) vs naruto's swarm of clones. the attacks can even be seperate and singular. fukasaku has this crazy water style jutsu that's pretty much like sasori's concentrated to a certain circumference nature affinity attacks vs chiyo and sakura. he cut nagato's summoning chameleon in a slice, or slices with it. the rest toads are big and I'm sure have nature affinities to. ik gamabunta has water style. jiraiya's dragon flame bomb is huge. 4 jiraiya's doing that shit is trouble. there's even his mud jutsu that he used vs urashiki to trap naruto (idk if this naruto we're talking about could escape that. you'll have to tell me. if he can. it's a good diversion). all the toads even have their extendable tongues. etc

      idk if naruto would be able to get close under such circumstances. and I think they'd have counters to his rasenshuriken (you can call me out if you think this is bias). but to me jiraiya holds out till. unlessssssssss. if you think it's not possible for him to summon all the toads i mentioned together. i accept defeat.

      did seemingly take a while to effect though.

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