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  • Sasuke with the feats he got when fighting Killer B, Itachi is at before his death state (vs Sasuke feats).. Naruto is with vs Pain feats, and Jiraiya vs Pain feats too. Naruto and Jiraiya did not start in Sage Mode, and no summons being called yet. Which side would take this?

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    • I think that two SM users with the mode activated right away are too much op, even for the likes of Sasuke and Itachi.

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    • Ok, how about the one i have edited?

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    • sasuke and itachi win. genjutsu. even if they start in sage mode they still lose

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    • Well they have fukasaku and shima..

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    • they could burn those toads with amaterasu

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    • Naruto and Jiraiya obviously win. Jiraiya's wide range technique (too lazy to search up the name) will leave Sasuke and Itachi cornered allowing Naruto to end it with a Rasenshuriken. Not to mention, the longer the battle takes the more disadvantaged the brother will be due to MS strain. I don't see how the master and student lose here

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    • @ultimadude well i think sasuke and itachi wont lose that easily..they can use Susanoo

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    • Yuhu123 wrote: @ultimadude well i think sasuke and itachi wont lose that easily..they can use Susanoo

      They will definitely be forced to camp in their Susanoo, but they can't maintain it for long due to MS use. At best, the brothers will give the master and student medium difficulty.

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    • But jiraiya and naruto cannot maintain sage mode for long too, right? And naruto cant get helped from fukasaku and shima to summon clones gathering sage chakra, because they would be on jiraiya's shoulders..

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    • Yuhu123 wrote: But jiraiya and naruto cannot maintain sage mode for long too, right? And naruto cant get helped from fukasaku and shima to summon clones gathering sage chakra, because they would be on jiraiya's shoulders..

      Jiraiya can maintain SM indefinitely thanks to Fukasaku and Shima. While Naruto indeed can't summon his clones from the toad domain (forgot the name), he will definitely last longer than the brothers

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    • Well i think maybe naruto jiraiya and the toads dont have something for defense against amaterasu?

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    • @Yuhu. having started in sage mode they def would have the raw power advantage. but i don't see how either of them get passed the brothers' genjutsu. and with them fighting to defeat. i see them winning with genjutsu, then a simultaneous attack (this is the quickest and easiest way for them to win). both with amaterasu, then itachi with the totsuka blade at jiraiya, and sasuke with a flame control arrow at naruto (being hit with amaterasu, ma and pa would be forced to scatter from jiraiya, and you know what that means pertaining to breaking the genjutsu, and the kind of genjutsu i'm refering to with the sharingan, it can't be broken without help. a single reference (of others); madara vs the raikage in the fourth war. this was in the 5 kage battle vs him (madara). Ay needed onoki to snap him out of it)

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    • I want to see you debate with ultimadude

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    • Senjutsu Sage
      Senjutsu Sage removed this reply because:
      not what i want to say
      17:22, December 29, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Sasuke couldn’t use the Susanoo when he fought Bee. The first time he ever used it was at the 5 kage summit, which happened some time after the Bee fight. Sasuke barely used amaterasu on his own for the first time vs Bee.

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    • Yuhu123 wrote: Well i think maybe naruto jiraiya and the toads dont have something for defense against amaterasu?

      Naruto can sense the build up and warn Jiraiya about it.

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    • @Yuhu. looool

      @Vlad. just because he didn't use it doesn't mean he couldn't and look how easily he went and used it at the five kage summit after never using it before, and for the first time. and in the fight vs bee they weren't fighting to harm him but to capture him. even suigetsu said "were gonna have to go at this guy with intent to kill if we're gonna capture him" then boom, when push came to shove, sasuke used amaterasu and even flame control. it's kinda sounding like you just don't want them to win lol. cause even if sasuke doesn't use either of the things you say he didn't use. itachi still could amaterasu and totsuka blade jiraiya, and with naruto still under genjutsu, his death, or inevitable loss is still on the table. kirin would be sasuke's most favoured move, with all the time he'd have to do it. lol, itachi would let him have his fun. ma and pa trying to intervene would be to no real avail

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    • @Senjutsu Sage we only give the fighters feats up until the point that's specified in OP, so no Susanoo.

      Also, he didn't use it easily. It pained him extremely and then after using it during the fights it deactivated and left his sight blurry.

      Amaterasu didn't even capture Bee. And when Sasuke used his Mangekyo Genjutsu on Bee, it pained him so much he couldn't react to Bee blowing his chest out. Sasuke woulda died if he had fought Bee on his own.

      Jiraiya can seal Amaterasu and I doubt he couldn't dodge the Totsuka with all his agility. Naruto wouldn't be under Genjutsu. He can fight with his eyes closed in Sage Mode, which he would be doing since he knows that their Genjutsu goes through eyes.

      Yeah, Sasuke and Itachi don't have the firepower to end it quick nor the stamina to trade blows with Jiraiya and Naruto. I'd say Jiraiya and Naruto win.

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    • @Squint. ohhh

      my memory's showing me he used it easily, and the after effects of using it etc, are what caused him agony (I might gotta go and look at it again).

      I was just trying to say that he used it really, cause of what Vlad said.

      loool my argument was genjutsu, then a simultaneous attack for both. that's always an argument (not only you) saying that he could fight with his eyes closed. they'd inevitably face off before they fight. naruto never even closed his eyes vs sasuke in their final battle, where he would have died, right at their arm clash, if sasuke sharingan, or rinnegan genjutsu'd him, and then hit him with a simultaneous attack, (as I'm arguing right now) instantly after, before kurama could do anything about it. naruto after experiencing first hand (and being told) how itachi is with genjutsu (gaara retrieval mission) rushes in at itachi, and falters to his genjutsu in their second encounter. etc

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    • Sasuke described using Susanoo as feeling pain in every cell of his body.

      Vlad noted he barely used it against Bee, which is true. He barely used it against Bee. And even putting it out put him through ridiculous strain.

      Naruto never started with his eyes closed because he never faced off against Sasuke with the means to fight eyes closed before. But a few smoke bombs and a few summons would easily distract long enough to activate Sage Mode and negate the need to see.

      Naruto was caught by Itachi because he didn't know Itachi had Genjutsu that didn't need to transmit through the eyes.

      During their second encounter, Naruto wouldn't win against Itachi. He just wasn't there yet. This fight is different. He has Jiraiya with him and more options available to activate Sage Mode

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    • Jiraiya get's fodderized with base genjutsu, Itachi moves on to help Sasuke with Naruto.

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    • but the point is. he still used it. and within the time he put naruto under genjutsu. you really think it would be that hard for him to hit him with amaterasu? you underestimate sasuke. even if. I already said that jiraiya gets dealt with by itachi. naruto's next after that. who'd be under genjutsu

      you really just don't want naruto to lose here. smoke bombs? really? he'd really consider doing that? in the alternate story of naruto vs sasuke, why didn't he use smoke bombs to go sage mode there then? and sasuke has summonings to, and itachi has the susanoo. the sharingan would see through that smoke either way, catching whiff of naruto's chakra, that it'd see in colour. sasuke casually uses the body flicker technique (that he uses to enhance his speed. or he just simply uses his chakra for that. i think it's either or) and sharingan deals with naruto as i said before

      naruto was told about how itachi is with genjutsu and inadvertently experienced first hand what he was warned about. that's the whole point. then comes his second encounter with itachi

      he still got caught. jiraiya's already been dealt with

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    • I agree with Squinty97. Naruto and Jiraiya take this for obvious reasons.

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    • itachi and sasuke are just underestimated here really

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    • @Senjutsu Sage, you look at the panels where Sasuke used Amaterasu and any manipulation or technique using MS, and you tell me if it would be "that hard." Spoiler alert, he looked like he was having issues breathing and holding his eyes open during the Bee fight, where we're pulling feats from.

      Jiraiya gets "dealt with" by Itachi? Jiraiya is canonly equal to Itachi. And like I said, summons and smoke screens and swamps do wonders for buying time.

      Smoke bombs, yeah. Like he used against Pain. He made Rasengan to make smoke bombs, but yes Naruto does think of smoke bombs. There an issue?

      I'm not sure why you'd think I need to answer why Naruto wouldn't do something in an alternate story where he isn't actually Naruto.

      Depending on the technique, Sasuke couldn't see through it. chakra based screens will stop his vision. Even just smoke screens limit his Genjutsu, and with that many Shadow Clones can be made so he can't pinpoint who's who.

      Sasuke summonings vs summonings from both Jiraiya and Naruto... hmmmm... In all seriousness, Jiraiya and Naruto can summon far more than Sasuke, because they have much higher chakra pools.

      "As you said before" doesn't make it right lol.

      Jiraiya is not just "dealt with" by Itachi. they're equals stated in the series and in the databooks. An argument can be made that Itachi would prevail but it wouldn't be just Itachi beating him then going to help Sasuke. Based on how everyone fights here if it was just 1v1s, Jiraiya vs Itachi would take longer than Sasuke vs Naruto.

      @Jason that's fine, underestimate Jiraiya that much.

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    • the entire point is. hE sTiLl dId iT

      your entire smoke bomb argument goes down in futility. cause the moment they see the brothers eyes that is about it

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    • @Senjutsu Sage

      Sasuke isn't one to use Genjutsu at the beginning of every battle. Itachi is though. Itachi isn't going to spam Amaterasu or Susanoo, and Sasuke is a few Amaterasu and Susanoo uses from his vision becoming very blurry.

      Jiraiya and Naruto have a clear advantage in this fight. Also, Naruto has 2 spare clones to recharge his Sage Mode in an instant due to the scroll he had access to in the Pain fight. Jiraiya has Ma and Pa. This battle is clearly leaning towards Naruto and Jiraiya.

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    • Jiraiya has no counter for Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu, that aside, can he even break a base genjutsu before Itachi severs one of his body part?, nothing hints he can. Chiyo immediately said that when facing a sharingan user one is sure to flee, she then resorts to telling them about the partner method to break genjutsu, Kakashi nor chiyo brought up the 'halt chakra flow' method.

      • The databook even stated that when up against sharingan genjutsu two against one is the rule, so that one can free the other from it. Jiraiya's method only works for non-ocular genjutsu and maybe less potent sharingan genjutsu, which is something Itachi' doesn't do....
      • Orochimaru was overwhelmed by itachi's 3 tomoe genjutsu powers, he was surprised of it's potency, which would explain why Jiraiya stared Itachi in his eyes in their first meeting, solely because he underestimates or doesn't realize how powerful sharingan genjutsu is. Orochimaru struggles, why would it be any dif for jiraiya?
      • Stopping one's chakra to break genjutsu is widely known, Kakashi, kid sakura, and Gai broke out of Kabuto's temple of nirvana genjutsu using that method, now remember Gai developed a fighting style to counter Kakashi's genjutsu , why was that necessary if simply stopping one's chakra was enough? lol.

      Jiraya loses in the beginning in the fight ,no dif.

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    • @Prince. key word here "every". it's the easiest thing for him to do, considering he's fought naruto in couple times past, and knows how he is. as a deterrent against naruto's unfathomable unpredictability (etc), that'd be too much of a bother to face. I think he'd do it. the simplest, and less bothersome course of action is to render him immobile. naruto's never been genjutsu'd by sasuke before, so he wouldn't expect it. didn't even expect for sasuke to enter his mind in the retrieval arc

      itachi's going to spam tsukuyomi though

      they don't have the advantage to me. jiraiya never looked away from itachi's eyes (as if it's something he had to do) in their first encounter. naruto's never been genjutsu'd by sasuke " " " "

      @Jason. I never would imagine there'd be someone who'd think the same as me. I always felt that people who think that itachi can't beat jiraiya underestimate tsukuyomi. a majority of the people I have arguments with, mostly think of raw power in debates. could you even believe that they say itachi's genjutsu won't work on jiraiya, cause he's only ever pulled it off on average shinobi? what a desperate suggestion. as if killer bee or kisame are average shinobi. they even say sage mode itself is a defence against visual genjutsu -facepalm-

      "Jiraya loses in the beginning in the fight ,no dif."

      my ultimate thought in a madara vs itachi debate

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Jiraiya has no counter for Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu, that aside, can he even break a base genjutsu before Itachi severs one of his body part?, nothing hints he can. Chiyo immediately said that when facing a sharingan user one is sure to flee, she then resorts to telling them about the partner method to break genjutsu, Kakashi nor chiyo brought up the 'halt chakra flow' method.

      Both Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu requires prep time for Itachi to use. Naruto, Fukasaku, and Shima will be able to sense the build up and warn Jiraiya. In the case that either of them fail to hit their target, Itachi will be left defenseless as he recoils from MS strain and exhaustion.

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    • @UltimaDude...OP stated no summons are called yet. And even if they are present, sensing chakra build up would only tell them that something is coming, not what is coming, but that's irrelevant since those two are not on the field. Jiraiya gets rekt

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: @UltimaDude...OP stated no summons are called yet. And even if they are present, sensing chakra build up would only tell them that something is coming, not what is coming, but that's irrelevant since those two are not on the field. Jiraiya gets rekt

      He later said that Fukasaku and Shima are present, so there goes your entire argument. Sensing will allow to them to make the a preemptive strike or small retreat. Amaterasu and/or Tsukuyomi is avoided and Itachi used up a third of his chakra reserves. The master and student win here.

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    • Also Itachi stated that a battle between him and Jiraiya would likely end in both of them dying, so as far as I'm concerned, they are at least even in that regard.

      Naruto can buy time for Jiraiya to seal any flames he needs to, but realistically, he won't need to because both Jiraiya and Naruto possess the speed necessary to dodge Amaterasu. The thing that might catch Jiraiya and Naruto off guard would be a Kirin and even then, Sage Mode might protect them from most of it, but I don't think it will provide as much protection as a Susanoo would.

      So onto Naruto and Sasuke. I don't think this OP's Sasuke can beat Naruto. Naruto was doing quite well in the Pain Fight for the most part, and we know the OP's Sasuke isn't equal to Pain at all. Sasuke on the other hand, his vision started getting worst the more he used his techniques. We already know his V1 Cloak can block Amaterasu. I'll even go out on a limb and say a Rasenshuriken can penetrate a Susanoo.

      Also, for those saying ITachi will use Tsukuyomi over and over: Yea... No. He has never spammed that technique whatsoever, and we know he can barely hold a Susanoo together.

      Naruto and Jiraiya win here. They'll have definitely difficulty if Sasuke pulls off Kirin, but without it, they will definitely win.

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    • UltimaDude wrote: He later said that Fukasaku and Shima are present, so there goes your entire argument. Sensing will allow to them to make the a preemptive strike or small retreat. Amaterasu and/or Tsukuyomi is avoided and Itachi used up a third of his chakra reserves. The master and student win here.

      • Where is that stated in the opening?
      • Jiraiya is slow asf in base, so yeah...retreat sounds smart. And anyways like i've proven above base genjutsu is enough here.


      Princeharris1993 wrote: Also Itachi stated that a battle between him and Jiraiya would likely end in both of them dying, so as far as I'm concerned, they are at least even in that regard.

      Feats >>>> statements. Base genjutsu proven to solo.

      Naruto can buy time for Jiraiya to seal any flames he needs to, but realistically, he won't need to because both Jiraiya and Naruto possess the speed necessary to dodge Amaterasu. The thing that might catch Jiraiya and Naruto off guard would be a Kirin and even then, Sage Mode

      How can Naruto buy time when Sasuke is all up on his ass? How can Jiraiya start to write lengthy flame seals whilst being burnt and whilst Itachi will be standing right infront of him? Amaterasu magnifies immediately after, so no. AND what's base Jiraiya's best speed feats?

      Naruto was doing quite well in the Pain Fight for the most part, and we know the OP's Sasuke isn't equal to Pain at all. I'll even go out on a limb and say a Rasenshuriken can penetrate a Susanoo.

      • No we don't know that, and Naruto wasn't doing well. And Sasuke>>>> Naruto as shown multiple times. This Naruto starts in base, not SM. Whilst Sasuke can freely blitz and use mangekyou.
      • And we'll chop that limb off and ask for the basis of that claim, RS penetrating susanoo..
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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:

      • Where is that stated in the opening?
      • Jiraiya is slow asf in base, so yeah...retreat sounds smart. And anyways like i've proven above base genjutsu is enough here.

      Literally the fourth post in the thread

      Well they have fukasaku and shima..

      You haven't proven how Itachi will catch Jiraiya with a genjutsu.

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    • UltimaDude wrote: Literally the fourth post in the thread

      Now I see it. That info is supposed to be in the opening post btw

      You haven't proven how Itachi will catch Jiraiya with a genjutsu.

      Jiraiya stares in Itachi's eyes on their first encounter, and continues to maintain eye contact. So the question is, how will Itachi not catch Jiraiya with genjutsu.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Jiraiya stares in Itachi's eyes on their first encounter, and continues to maintain eye contact. So the question is, how will Itachi not catch Jiraiya with genjutsu.

      Their first encounter wasn't a fight, so it shouldn't be assumed that Jiraiya will stupidly make eye contact if they were to fight. Even Naruto knew not to make eye contact with Itachi, so the idea that Jiraiya will make and maintain eye contact for Itachi to catch him in a genjutsu doesn't make much sense.

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    • Itachi was an enemy then, and the sharingan is a weapon, yet Jiraiya made eye contact. The character performed the action, your words are meaningless. You recognize that even basic genjutsu can KO him here, so you're now trying to eliminate that lol. Other top tier characters made and makes eye contact with the sharingan even when they knew not to. Orochimaru, Hashirama, Tobirama, Danzo, JiRaIyA, Killer Bee x2, Ay, Cee, Darui, Kakashi, Sai, Kurenai, Naruto, Deidara x3, Sakura, Chiyo, the list goes on. And it's not about maintaining eye contact, Itachi's genjutsu is and is listed as seamless, so Jiraiya won't even know where he went wrong.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Itachi was an enemy then, and the sharingan is a weapon, yet Jiraiya made eye contact. The character performed the action, your words are meaningless. You recognize that even basic genjutsu can KO him here, so you're now trying to eliminate that lol. Other top tier characters made and makes eye contact with the sharingan even when they knew not to. Orochimaru, Hashirama, Tobirama, Danzo, JiRaIyA, Killer Bee x2, Ay, Cee, Darui, Kakashi, Sai, Kurenai, Naruto, Deidara x3, Sakura, Chiyo, the list goes on. And it's not about maintaining eye contact, Itachi's genjutsu is and is listed as seamless, so Jiraiya won't even know where he went wrong.

      Yet Itachi didn't catch Jiraiya in a genjutsu like he usually does with people who made eye contact with him, thus rendering your entire argument moot. Jiraiya won't carelessly look at Itachi's gaze considering that he has the toad elders to cover other options of engagement. None of the characters you've listed were caught in genjutsu, save for a few, were caught in a genjutsu. Also, looking at someone's general direction =/= eye contact. Even if Jiraiya was caught in a genjutsu, the toad elders can easily bail him out of it. Itachi's only chance here is Tsukuyomi and/or Amaterasu.

      You are greatly overestimating Itachi here

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    • @Ultima. "Both Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu requires prep time for Itachi to use. Naruto, Fukasaku, and Shima will be able to sense the build up and warn Jiraiya. In the case that either of them fail to hit their target, Itachi will be left defenseless as he recoils from MS strain and exhaustion."

      i think it's just a look. you can refer to deidara and sasuke and naruto and killer bee etc

      @Prince. "Also Itachi stated that a battle between him and Jiraiya would likely end in both of them dying, so as far as I'm concerned, they are at least even in that regard."

      Itachi underestimated himself here. because jiraiya has no real answer to tsukuyomi. make it worse. simultaneous attacks while immobile under genjutsu

      "Naruto can buy time for Jiraiya to seal any flames he needs to, but realistically, he won't need to because both Jiraiya and Naruto possess the speed necessary to dodge Amaterasu. The thing that might catch Jiraiya and Naruto off guard would be a Kirin and even then, Sage Mode might protect them from most of it, but I don't think it will provide as much protection as a Susanoo would."

      i think we're arguing that they get stopped in their tracks by genjutsu first. and speed to what? base naruto and jiraiya are that fast?

      "So onto Naruto and Sasuke. I don't think this OP's Sasuke can beat Naruto. Naruto was doing quite well in the Pain Fight for the most part, and we know the OP's Sasuke isn't equal to Pain at all. Sasuke on the other hand, his vision started getting worst the more he used his techniques. We already know his V1 Cloak can block Amaterasu. I'll even go out on a limb and say a Rasenshuriken can penetrate a Susanoo."

      he definitely is stronger in terms of raw power but sasuke has a slight advantage over him. the sharingan. and we know how it is with sasuke and naruto in taijutsu.

      it's also incredible how he fought for so long at the five kage summit, spammed his MS abilities. went into another prolonged fight, again after that, and only went blind after. and loool, naruto's rasenshuriken couldn't even kill kakuzu

      "Also, for those saying ITachi will use Tsukuyomi over and over: Yea... No. He has never spammed that technique whatsoever, and we know he can barely hold a Susanoo together."

      he won't need to spam it since it destroys right away. and how many times did he do it vs sasuke in their battle?

      he can barely hold a susanoo together? in part one, itachi used amaterasu, to break him and kisame out, jiraiya's frog stomach jutsu, and after that, said he was tired (and he said using tsukuyomi made him weary to). and then vs sasuke, he tsukuyomi's the shit out of him, he amaterasu f@#*ks sasuke's fireball jutsu (using the jutsu himself. so he amaterasu coats his, and sasuke's fireball jutsu). then takes anal, from probably the most powerful lightning jutsu in the series (after indra's arrow). and still had enough in him to use the susanoo while he's sick and nearly blind. itachi prior to all that has more than enough in him to hold the susanoo together, and that's the itachi being considered in the OP right now.

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    • UltimaDude wrote: Yet Itachi didn't catch Jiraiya in a genjutsu like he usually does with people who made eye contact with him, . thus rendering your entire argument moot.

      Ummm what? he has to like have the intention to use genjutsu then, clearly he didn't even attempt it. So no thus rendering your entire argument moot. This is so simple...

      Jiraiya won't carelessly look at Itachi's gaze considering that he has the toad elders to cover other options of engagement.

      All he had was Naruto at that time, yet he still looked. Thus rendering your entire argument moot

      None of the characters you've listed were caught in genjutsu, save for a few, were caught in a genjutsu. Also, looking at someone's general direction =/= eye contact. Even if Jiraiya was caught in a genjutsu, the toad elders can easily bail him out of it. Itachi's only chance here is Tsukuyomi and/or Amaterasu.

      never said that in the first place. When Jiraiya is restricted by genjutsu it's not like Itachi would just stand around and wait till he gets released, because then what's the point in using it in the first place?, in the case of Deidara, he was tricked in using his own atk against himself, the same could be done here or simple speed blitz is enough/ shurikenjutsu to obstruct the frogs or something... It's not overestimating if it's backed by facts.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Ummm what? he has to like have the intention to use genjutsu then, clearly he didn't even attempt it. So no thus rendering your entire argument moot. This is so simple...

      Because he wasn't intending to fight, the same goes for Jiraiya. Hence, why you're argument is rendered moot

      All he had was Naruto at that time, yet he still looked. Thus rendering your entire argument moot

      What Naruto would do had Itachi caught Jiraiya in a genjutsu in that situation? Answer: he would rush towards Itachi in a futile attempt to strike, not helping the situation at all. Like I said above, Jiraiya wasn't intending to fight

      never said that in the first place. When Jiraiya is restricted by genjutsu it's not like Itachi would just stand around and wait till he gets released, because then what's the point in using it in the first place?, in the case of Deidara, he was tricked in using his own atk against himself, the same could be done here or simple speed blitz is enough/ shurikenjutsu to obstruct the frogs or something... It's not overestimating if it's backed by facts.

      Then why mention them at all if they weren't seen being caught by genjutsu? The elder toads will cover for him, likely with one making a diversion while the other snaps him out. Simple. You act like the elder toads are completely useless here, thus overestimating Itachi's chances of winning

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    • UltimaDude wrote: Because he wasn't intending to fight, the same goes for Jiraiya. Hence, why you're argument is rendered moot

      What? where was it even hinted that Jiraiya never intended to fight?

      What Naruto would do had Itachi caught Jiraiya in a genjutsu in that situation? Answer: he would rush towards Itachi in a futile attempt to strike, not helping the situation at all. Like I said above, Jiraiya wasn't intending to fight

      Yes that was my point, only Naruto was there, yet he carelessly looked at the sharingan. Prove Jiraiya never intended to fight lol

      Then why mention them at all if they weren't seen being caught by genjutsu? The elder toads will cover for him, likely with one making a diversion while the other snaps him out. Simple. You act like the elder toads are completely useless here, thus overestimating Itachi's chances of winning

      Back then you were saying that Jiraiya won't stare at itachi, then i listed characters who stared at the sharingan, because one just has an affinity to do so, hence the list. With the time it takes the elders to simply realise Jiraiya is under genjutsu, Itachi should already be in for the kill...

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    • @Jason of the Mangekyo I just re-read the chapters and all Jiraiya did was trap Itachi and Kisame in a toad's stomach to which the duo quickly escaped thanks to Itachi using Amaterasu. No where in the chapters did it show Jiraiya making eye contact with Itachi. So your entire genjutsu argument, which is based on this premise, completely falls apart.

      Were the people fighting Sharingan users, save for the people that actually got caught? No. So it's a moot point. The elders will be able to sense that Jiraiya's is in a genjutsu, especially if they are on his shoulders, and snap Jiraiya out of it before Itachi can do anything.

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    • @Ultima.... Not really lol

      Sensory ability isn't always active. Meanwhile, Sasuke is dominating Naruto. Cheers.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: @Ultima.... Not really lol

      Sensory ability isn't always active. Meanwhile, Sasuke is dominating Naruto. Cheers.

      They will still be to discern if he's caught in a genjutsu or not. This Sasuke, who can barely use his MS, is not dominating SM Naruto. Base Naruto? Maybe. But, SM Naruto? Definitely not

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    • Itachi usually starts with genjutsu to keep away from fighting. I think the genjutsu part is settled.

      Naruto starts in base, so yeah.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Itachi usually starts with genjutsu to keep away from fighting. I think the genjutsu part is settled.

      Naruto starts in base, so yeah.

      You haven't proven that Jiraiya will stupidly make eye contact with Itachi as soon as the fight starts. So no, the genjutsu part has not been settled.

      Naruto creates clones to stall while he summons one from Mt. Myoboku to enter SM. Once in SM, Naruto decimates Sasuke.

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    • genjutsu works on animals to. plus if hit with amaterasu, they'd be forced to scatter from jiraiya

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    • Senjutsu Sage wrote: genjutsu works on animals to. plus if hit with amaterasu, they'd be forced to scatter from jiraiya

      Itachi will be at a disadvantage for using Amaterasu

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    • how?

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    • UltimaDude wrote: You haven't proven that Jiraiya will stupidly make eye contact with Itachi as soon as the fight starts. So no, the genjutsu part has not been settled.

      But i've proven he was stupid enough to stare. You prove that he won't. And like I said, characters has an affinity to stare at the sharingan.Jiraiya and Jiraiya's rival for example. I'm proving all of that, whilst you're just saying no he won't stare, because no.

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    • Senjutsu Sage wrote: how?

      Amaterasu takes up a portion of his chakra and he'll be recoiling from MS strain

      Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: But i've proven he was stupid enough to stare. You prove that he won't. And like I said, characters has an affinity to stare at the sharingan.Jiraiya and Jiraiya's rival for example. I'm proving all of that, whilst you're just saying no he won't stare, because no.

      All you did was make an unsupported claim. In their first encounter, there was no indication that Jiraiya made eye contact with Itachi. A general gaze is not the same thing as eye contact. The list you made included people who weren't engaging in any combat with a Sharingan user, such as Hashirama and Tobirama. Orochimaru was arrogant and underestimated Itachi's prowess. Like I said before, to suggest that Jiraiya will stupidly make eye contact while fighting Itachi makes no sense. Itachi will have to trick Jiraiya into making eye contact

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    • itachi's chakra reserves aren't as low, as people in the fandom think. if it was as low as they think, he should be dead after a great fire ball technique.

      amaterasu won't take so much out of him. he's proven resilience. after amaterasu comes the totsuka blade. ma and pa interfering would be to no real avail. they get dealt with by either of the brothers

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    • Well this is getting nowhere....you're manipulating the facts to suit your argument, repeating one thing over and over lol. Call it what you want, Jiraiya looked. Killer Bee got caught in Genjutsu once, but still looked at Itachi's eyes and got caught a second time. The very fact that Kabuto turn off his entire eye sight hints that at one point he is bound to stare lol, or else all he could've done was not look...The raikage was warned not to look in Madara's eyes, yet later on in the match he looked. Orochimaru didn't think Itachi's genjutsu was so potent, he was more carefree, also this is something Jiraiya doesn't know...what makes you think Jiraiya won't conveniently stare at all is something you've yet to prove. I've proven he and those characters listed in this comment has an affinity to stare.

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    • Senjutsu Sage wrote: itachi's reserves aren't as low as the fandom thinks. if it was as low as they think, he should be dead after a great fire ball technique.

      Terrible logic

      amaterasu won't take so much out of him. he's proven resilience. after amaterasu comes the totsuka blade. ma and pa interfering would be to no real avail. they get dealt with by either of the brothers

      Itachi had to take an entire day of rest after (not including the regular jutsus he used) 2 Tsukuyomis and an Amaterasu. One use of Amaterasu will greatly strain Itachi. The Totsuka blade is easily avoidable

      Jason of the Mangekyo wrote: Well this is getting nowhere....you're manipulating the facts to suit your argument, repeating one thing over and over lol. Call it what you want, Jiraiya looked. Killer Bee got caught in Genjutsu once, but still looked at Itachi's eyes and got caught a second time. The very fact that Kabuto turn off his entire eye sight hints that at one point he is bound to stare lol, or else all he could've done was not look...The raikage was warned not to look in Madara's eyes, yet later on in the match he looked. Orochimaru didn't think Itachi's genjutsu was so potent, he was more carefree, also this is something Jiraiya doesn't know...what makes you think Jiraiya won't conveniently stare at all is something you've yet to prove. I've proven he and those characters listed in this comment has an affinity to stare.

      By manipulating facts, you mean including the context? Staring into someone's general direction is not eye contact, which is what is required for Sharingan genjutsu. I never claimed that Jiraiya will never be caught in genjutsu. I just denounce the premise of him stupidly looking at Itachi's eyes. Killer Bee didn't notice Sasuke's Sharingan until he got caught by his genjutsu and was tricked to look at Itachi's eyes when he was countering his fire shurikens. The Raikage was literally caught off-guard. I never claimed that Jiraiya will never be caught in a genjutsu, in fact, I've admitted that he can be tricked into looking at Itachi's eyes. I simply disagree with the faulty premise of Jiraiya stupidly staring at Itachi's eyes at the start of the fight based on the hallway scene where eye contact wasn't even confirmed.

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    • wellll, if his chakra reserves are touted to be that low. that's a perfect example to use, pertaining to him with that. so idk about "terrible logic". if terrible logic is coming from anywhere, it's from people who think itachi's chakra reserves are low. but forgive me, I never make sense.

      looks like you're considering part one itachi

      dude. how is he avoiding anything while being burnt?

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    • No, it's not perfect logic, it's ridiculous exaggeration to imply the argument is ridiculous, despite it being a gross exaggeration of the actual point.

      How do you figure Itachi using 3 MS techs and needing bed rest isn't low reserves? Kakashi when he first started using Kamui had the same limit, and Kakashi isn't an Uchiha, AND he's not the SHaringan master that Itachi is. Itachi has low reserves.

      Part 1 Itachi, vs the one on death's door on in part 2? How big of a difference is that exactly?

      Idk, how'd Madara avoid getting burnt when Sasuke got him?

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    • ohhhhhh. so you understood what i wrote? i see you're answering.

      "No, it's not perfect logic, it's ridiculous exaggeration to imply the argument is ridiculous, despite it being a gross exaggeration of the actual point."

      a man with low chakra reserves should never be able to spawn susanoo (hope this makes sense)

      "How do you figure Itachi using 3 MS techs and needing bed rest isn't low reserves? Kakashi when he first started using Kamui had the same limit, and Kakashi isn't an Uchiha, AND he's not the SHaringan master that Itachi is. Itachi has low reserves."

      he didn't need 'bed rest' after he embarrassed yagura with amaterasu. he didn't need bed rest after he almost killed deidara with tsukuyomi. he didn't need bed rest when he caught naruto, in their second encounter, with tsukuyomi, etc. and he went and spammed tsukuyomi, and his rest abilities in his fight vs sasuke after. three ms techs are more than one, and seemingly, you're forgetting the drawbacks that you soooo suggested to me. and how many times the techs were used. a sick and nearly blind itachi still had enough in him to spawn susanoo (hope this makes sense)

      "Part 1 Itachi, vs the one on death's door on in part 2? How big of a difference is that exactly?"

      itachi lied about himself in part 1. doing the complete opposite of what he lied about, in shippuden, vs sasuke. he's already admitted in his fight vs kabuto that he's a self deceiver anyway (hope this makes sense)

      "Idk, how'd Madara avoid getting burnt when Sasuke got him?"

      jiraiya has on armor now? and we speak about avoiding the totsuka blade (hope this makes sense)

      (hope i make sense here. i never do)

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    • Sasuke and itachi win this. With genjutsu Itachi can drop Naruto at the start, and both Itachi and Sasuke can take care of jiraiya. Even if jiraiya goes into sage mode, they can burn both the toads on his shoulders and then take him out.

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    • Up north with the girlfriend, I'm not on the site everyday.

      No, it doesn't make sense. Susanoo is chakra taxing, but so is every MS tech. Since Itachi was the first ever in the series to use Susanoo, we can't use Susanoo to gauge Itachi's reserves, but vice versa. Itachi's use of Susanoo tells us how much chakra SUsanoo approximately needs. It can't tell us what Itachi has in terms of reserves.

      I don't recall Itachi ever using Tsukuyomi on Naruto. Or Deidara. Could be wrong. Could you tell me the chapter numbers? In any case, you're naming times he's used one MS technique. I obviously said 3, because it coincided with Kakashi, who not only has average reserves at best, but is not an Uchiha, and not a Sharingan master.

      Itachi never spammed a single MS technique while he was alive. He simply couldn't, because his reserves were too low.

      No it doesn't because you didn't address anything in the statement.

      Jiraiya doesn't need armour. Amaterasu burns literally anything, so armour goes about as fast as clothes. And Jiraiya has the option of stripping or sealing. If Madara could do it casually I'm sure Jiraiya could do it in a pinch.

      Totsuka Blade has only eer been used in a straight line against Orochimaru, who was again overconfident because he thought he could just tank the attack, and Nagato, who was controlled as an Edo and also was stripped of his shared vision.

      @UltimatMario Itachi didn't drop Naruto immediately at the start when versing Team 7 plus Chiyo. He waited, then eventually used Ephemeral or whatever. Now, Naruto can use this time for smoke screens to eliminate Genjutsu or clones to do the exact same thing, since Kakashi's clone demonstrated that Genjutsu affecting a clone won't affect the main user. Jiraiya as a Sage is extremely quick and agile. Both Itachi and Sasuke at this stage have trouble hitting moving targets. Itachi had to strain and chase Sasuke with Amaterasu during their fight before catching him, and Sasuke nearly keels over when he uses Amaterasu. Jiraiya would be quick enough to dodge.

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    • "No, it doesn't make sense. Susanoo is chakra taxing, but so is every MS tech. Since Itachi was the first ever in the series to use Susanoo, we can't use Susanoo to gauge Itachi's reserves, but vice versa."

      yett, he abuses tsukuyomi vs sasuke. does amaterasu twice, and after, still had the resilience (after being obliterated by kirin to) to spawn susanoo while sick and nearly blind

      " Itachi's use of Susanoo tells us how much chakra SUsanoo approximately needs. It can't tell us what Itachi has in terms of reserves."

      and obviously, it needs alot or a good amount. so itachi has alot, or a good amount. no where near low as you guys lie and say, or underestimate him and say.

      "I don't recall Itachi ever using Tsukuyomi on Naruto. Or Deidara. Could be wrong. Could you tell me the chapter numbers?"

      So when he caught naruto in their second encounter in "his genjutsu" as he said. that wasn't tsukuyomi? we all know what he means by "his genjutsu". the one he loves to use. when he almost killed deidara when recruiting him for the akatsuki. you really believe that wasn't tsukuyomi?

      "In any case, you're naming times he's used one MS technique. I obviously said 3, because it coincided with Kakashi, who not only has average reserves at best, but is not an Uchiha, and not a Sharingan master."

      obviously you're neglecting all else i wrote. you prolly didn't understand it. what he did vs sasuke in their battle, contradicts all your saying.

      "Itachi never spammed a single MS technique while he was alive. He simply couldn't, because his reserves were too low."

      hmmmmmmmmmmm. let's go have a chat with sasuke about that.

      "No it doesn't because you didn't address anything in the statement."

      it does. and i did. what he said about himself in part one, after their whole jiraiya incident, contradicts his actions vs sasuke.

      "Jiraiya doesn't need armour. Amaterasu burns literally anything, so armour goes about as fast as clothes. And Jiraiya has the option of stripping or sealing. If Madara could do it casually I'm sure Jiraiya could do it in a pinch."

      i get the stripping part but sealing? he's gonna write up a whole scroll while being burnt? you make it sound as if he'll leave the flames to burn him while he writes the scroll. making him look stupid.

      "Totsuka Blade has only eer been used in a straight line against Orochimaru, who was again overconfident because he thought he could just tank the attack, and Nagato, who was controlled as an Edo and also was stripped of his shared vision."

      it's only ever been used in a straight line to seal it's targets. it works as a chopper to

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    • He doesn't abuse Tsukuyomi vs Sasuke, he simply uses it lol.

      Also, if you didn't notice, I said his limit was 3 before needing rest. Itachi used more MS techniques than 3. And guess what happened? He literally died from overexertion.

      "Low as you guys say" I didn't just say anything, I told you what the manga told us.

      No, Tsukuyomi is characterized by inverted colours every single time it's used. He didn't use it. "His Genjutsu" probably just refers to his regular Genjutsu a being super potent, because he was renowned for it.

      No, the battle vs Sasuke doesn't contradict what I'm saying. Itachi went past his usual limit of 3 MS techs. And died from overexertion. If anything, that further proves my point.

      I vividly recall me and another user reminding you what "spam" means. It means using over and over again. For example, Naruto spams Shadow Clones. Hiruzen, who used 3 in his fight against Orochimaru, does not spam Shadow Clones. So no, Itachi never spammed a single MS tech while alive.

      No, his words regarding Jiraiya do not contradict any of his actions vs Sasuke.

      Kakashi, after being dimensionally shifted into midair above lava, had the bearings to read his situation, take out a scroll and tie it around a kunai, throw it into the ceiling above him, throw a kunai into Obito to stop his fall, and catch Sakura. Before hitting the lava. Without the Sharingan. So yeah, I do believe Jiraiya in a hurry can write a scroll as fast as Madara can casually snap off his armour.

      When has it ever worked as a chopper? Why would you even mention it being used as a chopper when a swing is MUCH easier to avoid than a thrust?

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    • "He doesn't abuse Tsukuyomi vs Sasuke, he simply uses it lol."

      quite alot of times. tf? same difference (hope this makes sense)

      "Also, if you didn't notice, I said his limit was 3 before needing rest. Itachi used more MS techniques than 3. And guess what happened? He literally died from overexertion."

      itachi used 2 of those MS techniques more than once. had one of them counteracted, that caused him pain. got thrashed by kirin and still spawned susanoo. he didn't simply just "die from overexertion" his sickness had more to do with that. and considering your logic, using tsukuyomi once, amaterasu once and the susanoo once is death row. that's the exact opposite of what happened (hope this makes sense)

      "Low as you guys say" I didn't just say anything, I told you what the manga told us."

      itachi lied about himself. he's already admitted that he's a self deceiver (hope this makes sense)

      "No, Tsukuyomi is characterized by inverted colours every single time it's used. He didn't use it. "His Genjutsu" probably just refers to his regular Genjutsu a being super potent, because he was renowned for it."

      what exactly do you think happened in the anime? and i hope when i go see the manga chapter, there's no evidence of lieing once again. and no, he means tsukuyomi (hope i make sense)

      "No, the battle vs Sasuke doesn't contradict what I'm saying. Itachi went past his usual limit of 3 MS techs. And died from overexertion. If anything, that further proves my point."

      yes it does. what you're saying is wrong and nothing was proven further.

      "I vividly recall me and another user reminding you what "spam" means. It means using over and over again. For example, Naruto spams Shadow Clones. Hiruzen, who used 3 in his fight against Orochimaru, does not spam Shadow Clones. So no, Itachi never spammed a single MS tech while alive."

      spam from my interpretation of the word (never actually seeing the definition, or hearing of it) means use. it's habitual that i say it. and as you'll see, i corrected myself, as i went and researched it. go back up, and you shall see it edited, replaced with "spawn". (and it doesn't even mean, exactly what you guys think it means. you guys use it in another context of what it really means. this is just like me with the word integrated)

      "No, his words regarding Jiraiya do not contradict any of his actions vs Sasuke."

      yesss they do

      "Kakashi, after being dimensionally shifted into midair above lava, had the bearings to read his situation, take out a scroll and tie it around a kunai, throw it into the ceiling above him, throw a kunai into Obito to stop his fall, and catch Sakura. Before hitting the lava. Without the Sharingan. So yeah, I do believe Jiraiya in a hurry can write a scroll as fast as Madara can casually snap off his armour."

      so after being hit with amaterasu while under genjutsu. he'll really pull out a scroll while being burnt, and in agony, and write up the seal that fast? and then still perform the hand signs to seal the flames? the totsuka blade won't ever can't him in that instant? dude you know your entire example is a different story.

      "When has it ever worked as a chopper? Why would you even mention it being used as a chopper when a swing is MUCH easier to avoid than a thrust?"

      versus orochimaru, vs kabuto.

      because you talk as if that's the only way it's used. you know what i said.

      for a thrust all you have to do is move left or right. orochimaru didn't expect to be sealed by the blade. and, he utilizes a snake substitution technique. so taking a specific attack head on, when he could replace him self, isn't a bother.

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    • No, he doesn't use it quite a few times. Every single time we see him encounter Sasuke, he uses it once.

      Are you actually understanding the argument? 3 techniques require him to rest. Going one more than 3 doesn't mean immediate death, people can overexert. Itachi's usual limit is 3 before needing rest. He can overexert himself, but that's painful and going too far will kill him, as shown.

      In the anime, Naruto and Itachi didn't invert colours. Idk what your point is. Unless I'm missing some clip.

      No, the battle doesn't contradict anything. Itachi said he could only draw with Jiraiya. That in no way is contradicted by Itachi fighting a completely different opponent.

      I really don't care about your interpretation of "spam," because for use in forums it's referencing a large number of occurrences (like spam emails). Itachi never once spammed any MS tech while alive. And the difference between "spam" and "integrate" in these uses is that "spam" has a general used definition in forums. Go look at any other battle related vine, CTRL+F "spam," and you'll see. "Integrate is the used translation in a databook where it would make absolutley no sense to try to use a word for its less used definition instead of its most used definition, especially when databooks are supposed to be supplying information.

      Jiraiya wouldn't be under Genjutsu if he was hit by Amaterasu. Itachi requires intense build up for Amaterasu. This build up is more than enough time for Naruto to cover the line of sight with Shadow Clones or for Jiraiya to break out of anything short of Tsukuyomi. And yes, most ninja in the series who are at high level show speed easily capable of what I said. Hell, samurai were able to just chill on fire for awhile until Gaara came up and helped them out of their armour.

      Versus Orochimaru was a thrust. I don't remember him using it against Kabuto. It wouldn't make sense to use it against Kabuto, since they needed Kabuto physically there in order to undo Edo Tensei, which wouldn't be possible if he was sealed.

      A thrust isn't harder to avoid because of your options, it's harder to avoid because of direction and speed and distance.

      A thrust is straight to your opponent, leaving them less time to react. A swing is wide and telegraphed, leaving more time to read and react.

      You can take for example, strikes in real life. A straight jab is much harder to dodge than a haymaker, just because of reaction times.

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    • UltimaDude wrote: By manipulating facts, you mean including the context? Staring into someone's general direction is not eye contact

      The page I showed you explicitly shows two panels, one containing Jiraiya's eye and the other with Itachi's ,side to side, literally telling the audience that they're making eye contact. If you can't see that then, this is the manipulating of facts i'm talking abt.


      I simply disagree with the faulty premise of Jiraiya stupidly staring at Itachi's eyes at the start of the fight

      Sounds so convenient for Jiraiya. After Deidara got in genjutsu and was defeated, he questioned how did he get caught in genjutsu, Kisame explained it happened right from the moment he looked Itachi in eyes. You're greatly underestimating Itachi's capabilities here, you brought up the toad argument, but those toads can also be genjutsued and be controlled to slit Jiraiya's throat lmao....but wait, now i guess the toads won't make eye contact because no

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    • @Squint. Isn't that a series of uses of it? Isn't that quite alot? He used it one time, then he uses it another time, then he uses it a next time again. you just want to have an argument here

      Your logic isn't in line with that. you said three MS techs drain him. He used two more than once. and spawned the susanoo after such and such, while being sick and nearly blind. Imagine now if he used Tsukuyomi once, Amaterasu once and the Susanoo once. Compared to what he did in his fight vs Sasuke, that would be nothing. Too easy. That wouldn't take a whole lot from him. he was sick. His sickness killed him

      The second time him and Itachi met. What you described happened when he used his genjutsu on Naruto. go watch it again

      I mean't what he said about having to use Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu to Kisame while they fled

      Obviously i said it to alter your perspective, on why i use it in the context i mean it. But itee. You don't care. Doesn't matter fr though. And welll. He used his MS abilities more than once while alive though so.

      They could also mean that she combined her will with the god tree (making the ten tails) and then "challenged the twins to battle" as the databook said, to take back her chakra. Just like how Hashirama combines water and earth with his chakra, to make wood shoot out from the ground, out of nowhere.

      I didn't say that. I said while he's under Genjutsu, Itachi blasts him with Amaterasu. Naruto's already been Genjutsu'd by sasuke. Can't do anything.

      He chopped Orochimaru's snakes before the sealing. He chopped Kabuto's snake and Kimimaro's bones in the fight.

      Can still be dodged. Naruto's chakra arms coming at sasuke in mid air and him dodging them (In their first and second VOTE battles) are good examples (of others). Think Boro couldn't have just moved to the left or right of Boruto's attack with Rasengan?

      (Hope you won't have a stroke this time)

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    • His uses of Tsukuyomi against Sasuke is once every few years, so no it's no a lot of uses.

      Yes, my logic is what with what I said. Like I said, 3 is his limit before he needs rest. His actual Sharingan, which minimally drain him, had to be deactivated. And yes you're right he used many techniques while being sick and blind. And promptly died after.

      The second time they meet. This one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JrCd6dnWeA because Itachi and Naruto don't invert colours. Hint: If Naruto's hair is yellow, it's not inverted.

      Yes, Itachi had to flee, because trying to fight Jiraiya while already weakened from using an MS tech against someone who was not Jiraiya put him at the disadvantage. It's quite clear from both character statements and the databooks that Jiraiya and Itachi are about equals in combat.

      More than once while alive is not impressive. Kakashi did that.

      If it meant "combined her will with the god tree," then it could have literally said that. IBut guess what? It didn't.

      If Naruto would be done in by Genjutsu so easily by Sasuke, you'd think Sasuke would have tried that on him. But no, he only ever used his Sharingan to push back Kurama's chakra. Even if Itachi gets Jiraiya in a Genjutsu as soon as the battle starts, his Amaterasu is such a slow wind-up compared to Naruto's Shadow Clone speed that Naruto has tons of options to save Jiraiya. If it were so easy to just Genjutsu Jiraiya though, Itachi would have done so instead of using Amaterasu to run from him.

      Yeah but chopping the snakes didn't seal them did it? So the entire strength of its jutsu is rendered pointless when you swing instead of thrust.

      Okay, so thrusts can be dodged and it's been shown, thank you for proving my point about Totsuka.

      You still on that? Lol look, sorry that it's affected you that much that you're still thinking about it. I'll refrain from sassing you now, so that your experience in the forums will be more enjoyable.

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    • @Jason of the Mangekyou

      The toads are so big that they can look at a small target as a whole and don't have need for making direct eye contact.

      If I look at a Ladybug, I don't need to make direct eye contact with it. ITs so small that I can just observe it as a whole object rather than look it directly in the eyes. You need better arguments bro.

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    • Princeharris1993 wrote: @Jason of the Mangekyou The toads are so big that they can look at a small target as a whole and don't have need for making direct eye contact.

      If I look at a Ladybug, I don't need to make direct eye contact with it. ITs so small that I can just observe it as a whole object rather than look it directly in the eyes. You need better arguments bro.

      I wonder how Manda and the nine tails got put under genjutsu then. And lol, that aside, we were talking about MA and PA, who usually sit right on jiraiya's shoulder.

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    • Sasuke is the summoner and can summon Manda as close to him for eye contact as he needs.

      Not only that, Itachi probably needs to get pretty close at this point for Tsukuyomi, since his eyesight is so bad. Can't make eye contact if you can't see the eye. It actually lines up with Sasuke vs Itachi because Itachi got in Sasuke's face to use Tsukuyomi

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    • Squinty97 wrote: Sasuke is the summoner and can summon Manda as close to him for eye contact as he needs.

      Source for this lol,don't forget to explain kurama O_-

      It actually lines up with Sasuke vs Itachi because Itachi got in Sasuke's face to use Tsukuyomi

      No he didn't. That was part of the genjutsu.

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    • A source for the summon of a summoner being closest to the summon? Remember when Naruto first summoned Gamabunta? He summoned him with his head directly under him.

      No, it wasn't part of the Genjutsu. Before Itachi went up into his face and used Tsukuyomi to stimulate taking his eye, they were throwing Shruiken. After Sasuke breaks Tsukuyomi, the Shruiken are still there. Meaning the Genjutsu only started when Itachi went directly in front of Sasuke.

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    • Squinty97 wrote: A source for the summon of a summoner being closest to the summon? Remember when Naruto first summoned Gamabunta? He summoned him with his head directly under him.

      You said Sasuke can summon Manda as close to him for eye contact as he needs, if sasuke appears above Manda's head how would he perform genjutsu. You've yet to explain Kurama again, kurama is literally defeating your argument here lmao.

      No, it wasn't part of the Genjutsu. Before Itachi went up into his face and used Tsukuyomi to stimulate taking his eye, they were throwing Shruiken. After Sasuke breaks Tsukuyomi, the Shruiken are still there. Meaning the Genjutsu only started when Itachi went directly in front of Sasuke.

      Is this the scene?

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    • @Jason I'm sorry that you think above the head isn't close enough for Sasuke to lean over and force Genjutsu. But plenty of summoners summon other animals without ending up on top of them, like Kakashi with his pack. That means summoners have a choice in where in the summon is in relation to them. In any case, I don't see how Kurama defeats the argument. Kurama is a Tailed Beast that's already highly susceptible to the Sharingan.

      Yes, after that scene Tsukuyomi breaks down and then the Shuriken are still there

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    • Wow did you just use Kakashi's summon as your example...like sure stand on-top of pakkun lol. This summon doesn't have a choice but to not end up under kakashi lol, he'll get hurt. Same goes for smaller summons, like MA and PA etc why does this even need explaining.... I agree on the part where summoners have a choice where the summons apppear, as shown already in the series mostly with tsunade and katsuyu. Sasuke Summons Manda, Manda appears with Sasuke being on the ground, Manda looks down for his summoner, he gets ensnared in genjutsu, a giant beast as kurama being placed under genjutsu whilst the sharingan user is on the ground is the precedent to prove why this works. Also again, I wasn't talking about the giant summons, i was talking Ma and Pa, didn't know how it got to this.


      That scene was a part of tsukuyomi also, the blitz, the kick. Notice there is no damage onto the wall after tsukuyomi breaks apart, notice the distance between the brothers before and after tsukuyomi, it's the same distance apart. He used tsukuyomi after they finished with the shuriken bit.

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    • "I agree on the part where summoners have a choice where the summons apppear, as shown already in the series mostly with tsunade and katsuyu."

      Minato, Jiraiya, Naruto and the Animal path have a little feats of it to

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    • @Jason yeah I used Kakashi because even with his bigger dogs, he has them appear in front and not directly below him. But if you weren't talking about the giant summons then that's my mistake, my b.

      In your link with the panel, the bottom right is where I assumed Tsukuyomi starts. Right where he shows up right in front of Sasuke.

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    • Squinty97 wrote: In your link with the panel, the bottom right is where I assumed Tsukuyomi starts. Right where he shows up right in front of Sasuke.

      Couldn't have started then, because that would mean after tsukuyomi ends, Itachi would have to be inches in-front of Sasuke.....but he wasn't. But if you're saying the blitz didn't happen in the illusion, whilst i'm saying it did, either works for me in my statement in earlier comments.

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    • Oh thats true. Either way, they were pretty close in their actual Shuriken duel anyways. The point is, Itachi has to see their eye, and we know how blurry his vision is. He'd have to be relatively close

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    • Back to the topic guys

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    • Agreeing on the parameters of Itachi's Genjutsu is on topic.

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    • They were roughly 20 ft away from each other, similar distance as when he casted base genjutsu at the beginning. Besides he was accurately countering shurikens travelling at high speed, dude got this.

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    • So itachi-sasuke win this?

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    • It's not agreed upon. Some users think they would, others think Jiraiya and Naruto would win.

      @Jason, roughly 20ft away, but that's much closer than the regular starting distance of 10m. So Tsukuyomi and (if we call their prerequisites the same, which makes sense) Sharingan Genjutsu aren't available right off the bat to Itachi.

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    • Can you elaborate, i don't understand why they won't be available.

      @Yuhu, based on what has been discussed already, Itachi and Sasuke can be proven to be the victors.

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    • Because you need eye contact, and from 10 meters away Itachi probably couldn't see their eyes.

      And based on what was already discussed, @Jason, either way can be proven.

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    • Plot twist: Jigen incoming to the past and lolblitzes at them into mist blood and destroy elemental nation into dust and then head back to his future.

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    • Wtf narurias

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    • I doubt that amaterasu could be seald. Back when itachi and kisame met up with Jiraiya and Naruto and Saskue: Itachi was able to burn a hole to escape when Jiraiya trapped them in a toads mouth.

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    • Antonio415 wrote: I doubt that amaterasu could be seald. Back when itachi and kisame met up with Jiraiya and Naruto and Saskue: Itachi was able to burn a hole to escape when Jiraiya trapped them in a toads mouth.

      https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Fire_Sealing_Method

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    • Dude didn't watch the whole episode

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    • @Antonio. He sealed the flames after that bro.

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    • Yeah, he sealed the flames after they were cast, which is when they'd have to be sealed lol. Point?

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    • I have absolutely no point sir. Just trying to make a fellow user aware of a truth, that he's seemingly not aware of. Well more or less. He maybe forgot.

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    • Senjutsu Sage wrote: I have absolutely no point sir. Just trying to make a fellow user aware of a truth, that he's seemingly not aware of. Well more or less. He maybe forgot.

      I'm pretty sure he was referring to Antonio415

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    • My bad

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    • Should have @'ed him, sorry for the confusion

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    • Kind of gross with how much underestimation is going on. There is no easy in this fight. There is no, first glance kill moves here in this fight. Neither side will underestimate the other due to intelligence and emotional baggage. This fight will simply be Naruto telling Sasuke to come home. Sasuke saying piss off. Itachi and Jiraiya doing a little smack talk here and there. And then the fight will begin.

      Rundown? Since there's no scenario given, it goes like this...

      The sun hung high in the sky blazing down on a clear green field. The wind's breeze glided across the blades of grass. A single tree stood high on top of a small hill. A man was resting underneath it's shade. His raven strands bridged down his face as he seemingly slept. Off in the distance, a young teen made his way up the hill.

      Sasuke: "Itachi... I found you... The teen glanced down scowling.

      Itachi: "So you did..." The man said, keeping his eyes rested.

      Sasuke: "Is it true?" Sasuke asked.

      Itachi: "...?" The Uchiha fell silent.

      Sasuke: "Was what Madara said true?" Sasuke said explaining everything Madara told him.

      The man's eyes slowly opened, revealing those crimson blood hues, to look up at his younger brother.

      Itachi: "It is..." Itachi confirmed it hesitantly.

      Sasuke: "Why!?" Sasuke screamed furiously.

      But their conversation was cut short as two new individuals have interrupted them.

      Jiraiya: "Sorry to intrude... but... We have a little unfinished business." A white elder gentlemen announced with a smirk.

      Naruto: "Sasuke..." A raspy tone came from the blonde male who seemed to oddly have a thing for orange. He also had a creepy resemblance to a Miley Cyrus, but we'll let that go. Sasuke said nothing in reply still looking down at his brother, but his face turned into annoyance.

      Naruto: "Sasuke, it's time to come home." Naruto demanded.

      Sasuke: "Beat it..." Sasuke turned with a scowl.

      Sasuke: "You're in my way and I won't hesitate to kill you..." Sasuke said with a straight face. A few remarks came from Naruto asking him things and telling him he belongs in Konohagakure. How they're bonded and how he will return him home. Eventually, Sasuke grew annoyed and acted. In a swift motion, Sasuke had utilized the Body Flicker to appear at the side of Naruto. His hand on the hilt of his sword as he slashed at him. Naruto reacted just in the nick of time, grabbing and clashing his kunai with the sword. Sparks flew as Sasuke's face expressed hatred. But just after a brief moment, Lightning consumed the blade and the kunai was cut clean through. Naruto was shocked and almost a gonner until Jiraiya pulled him back and out of the reach of the incoming slash.

      Naruto: "Thanks Pervy Sage..." Naruto smiled and sighed a relief.

      Sasuke: "After I deal with these two. We're gonna talk.'" Sasuke demanded.

      Itachi: "So be it." Itachi said, getting to his feet and moving to Sasuke's side. Sasuke looked shocked for a moment, then accepted his brothers help.

      Jiraiya: "Well now... This could be tricky." Jiraiya smirked.

      Thus the fight began. Jiraiya told Naruto to refrain from looking at the Uchiha brothers eyes. Naruto nodded in compliance as he stepped forward towards the Uchiha duo. But Itachi had already acted with a simple point of his finger. Trapping Naruto in Ephemeral. Naruto started acting chaotically, fighting nothing and Jiraiya decided to break him free. Sasuke looked on with confusion before trying to capitalize. Charging in to slash at them with his blade. But before he could reduce the distance, Jiraiya utilized a cloud of smoke from a smoke bomb. Jiraiya quickly deduced that Itachi was capable of using Genjutsu even without the need of eye contact. As he and Naruto leaped back, Jiraiya bit his finger and conjured Toad Mouth Bind, changing the terrain to be inside a toad's stomach. Sasuke looks on in confusion while the walls of the stomach came to life and attacked him and Itachi, coming in between them and the other two. Using his sword coated in lightning, Sasuke slashed and backed away as he and Itachi dodged the stomach. Realizing he and Sasuke would be at a huge disadvantage within the toad, Itachi utilizes Amaterasu to burn their way out, his three tomoes changing to his Mangekyo as blood drips down. Back outside Sasuke and Itachi utilized this chance to make an attempt to flee the area. But Naruto, who now was in Sage Mode, charged out the stomach and after them with various clones. With their Sharingan they were able to track his movements, and he was beyond their physical capabilities now. One of the clones reached Itachi who was a little behind Sasuke, as it went to strike him. But in a sudden moment, Itachi had exploded blowing some of the clones away, pushing the rest back, and clouding their vision for a moment. It was a Shadow Clone Explosion, Itachi had replaced himself at some point when no one was aware as he is known to do. Before Naruto could catch his composure and the dust settled, Sasuke slashed through the smoke at him, seeing his Chakra. But Naruto with Sage Mode could react, dodging Sasuke's onslaught who moved far slower than the Third Raikage, which Sage Mode Naruto could react to. As Sasuke tried hitting Naruto, he grew frustrated as Naruto was dodging. Then Naruto went on the offensive as he countered, striking Sasuke in his gut with a punch, sending him flying through the dirt. Sasuke skidded across until finally he landed leaned over. Naruto's assault didn't stop there as he went to capitalize. Sasuke bled a little from his mouth when he was punched due to the tremendous strength Sage Mode gave. Naruto went to punch his face when Itachi intercepted him with a Water Bullet. Then in a swift moment, he was behind Naruto with Flicker. Naruto due to Sage Mode's sensory perception, sensed it, then dodged. He turned, picking up Itachi's movements. Itachi had already fired another technique Great Fireball as Naruto was turning. Naruto leaped over Ultra Rasengan in hand. Itachi looks at Naruto in midair, and after, he realized he has to kill. He gets ready to utilize Amaterasu when suddenly the Rasengan disperses into more Narutos. Impressed Itachi is forced to Flicker, dodging the clones. Sasuke is obviously hurt pretty badly as a punch from Sage Mode can end someone. It's possible he's suffered great internal damage. However, Sasuke is no pushover. Itachi has been waiting for the opportunity to place Naruto in Genjutsu, but he can't until he knows which Naruto is the real one and with Naruto in Sage Mode he realizes Naruto's reaction timing is near instant from everything he's observed so far. He tries some Bukijutsu and then he and Sasuke get in position. Each from opposite sides they utilize Phoenix Sage. It fails due to Naruto's perception by a few clones are taken out. Sasuke attacks and as Naruto and his clones get ready to hit, he utilizes Chidori Current up close to temporarily remove the clones and disable Naruto. Itachi uses this chance to trap him in Genjutsu once more. However, just when Sasuke went to finish, Jiraiya with both Sage Toads summoned and him in Sage Mode; attacked Sasuke, kicking him across the field. Itachi quickly caught him with his Susano'o. Sasuke who realized he wasn't going to be much more use due to the physical damage his body has taken, fired a few rounds of Amaterasu into the air causing the sky to start forming clouds. Stopping anymore damage Itachi put him in the safe confines of his Susano'o. Jiraiya is now intrigued against the Susano'o and uses a Ultra Big Ball Rasengan but it is deflected by the Yata Mirror. Jiraiya remarks about how legendary Susano'o is due to Madara, and that it's the real deal. Naruto who lost Sage Mode now, releases a clone in the Mountain to get it back. Jiraiya tells Naruto to keep his distance and to let him handle this, as he has a plan. Naruto nods and lets Jiraiya deal with it. Jiraiya prolongs the fight as best as he can as Itachi tries to slash him. Genjutsu won't help as Jiraiya has the Toad Sages to release him. Tsukuyomi won't help since Jiraiya won't look him in his eyes. Physically he's outmatched, and with Jiraiya's near instant reaction timing, it'd be difficult for him to get close enough to trick him into Tsukuyomi. He keeps slashing and going back and fourth with the Shinobi. But both know Itachi is being drained fast. And as Itachi reaches his limit, Jiraiya uses Swamp of the Underworld to change the land into mud and ensnare Itachi's Susano'o and him. With Itachi at his limit, he can't do much. But in that moment, the clouds have fully darkened and covered the skies. Sasuke uses Kirin and destroys Jiraiya in almost an instant. Naruto watches in horror and likely loses control of himself, seeing his master killed by his best friend. Itachi and Sasuke are trapped in the Swamp and unable to free themselves due to their drainage and damage. WIth the last of his power he frees Sasuke as he submerges into the swamp. It's likely Itachi dies from his sickness, Mangekyo usage, and the swamp. Sasuke who's body is beaten, smirks at Naruto, who looks utterly shocked. Then in a moment, Naruto lost all control, letting the Ninetails rampage as it did with Pain. The Ninetailed Naruto kills Sasuke, likely on his fourth tail. Eventually Naruto meets Minato and etc. The end.

      Why this way? Personality wise. Itachi doesn't desire to kill. Sasuke strives to be better than Naruto. Naruto is obsessed with getting him back. And Jiraiya, will do what he needs to. In every fight, Naruto and Sasuke have always began with close up fighting and worked their way up to jutsu. So there'd be no reason it'd be different here. Itachi is sick and won't waste Chakra needlessly. Jiraiya's Toad Stomach is too much of a hard counter for Itachi, providing Jiraiya and Naruto with time and offense. Susano'o though great, likely won't hit them especially if they are in Sage Mode due to near instant reaction. Jiraiya will likely want to summon the Toad Sages to counter Itachi's Genjutsu. And Naruto always spamming clones won't make it easy for him to trap Naruto in Genjutsu since he can't discern which is the real one especially if he's in Sage Mode. And Naruto will want to fight both of them in Sage Mode to buy Jiraiya time. And he will likely rely on his clones to avoid Genjutsu if he can.

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    • Wow..

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      • 9/10- spelling
      • 8/10- grammar
      • 8/10- punctuation
      • 10/10 - biased
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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:

      • 10/10 - biased

      Not really. Nothing really to be biased about

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    • Amatearasu rapes like every other VS thread pertaining an entity not a God Tier.

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    • KyfieLita68 wrote: Amatearasu rapes like every other VS thread pertaining an entity not a God Tier.

      Amaterasu has never seriously hurt anyone who was mildly a competent Shinobi. Naruto, random Samurai, Killer Bee, Gaara, 4th Raikage, all of these people survived their encounters with Amaterasu

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    • That doesn't mean it can't really. If any of them gets caught with Amaterasu they will be dead in time lol, Killer bee get's hit in his face?, Naruto in his face? Gaara in his face?

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    • I mean that logic can be used with Kakashi's Kamui. He's fast enough to warp things as fast as a strike from KCM2 Mode Naruto, he's fast enough to warp faster than Obito's perception, why not just warp a dude's head off?

      Amaterasu can hurt someone seriously, that's obvious. But it's not like you have to be a god to avoid its effects, as was suggested by @Kyfie

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    • Amaterasu, Kamui on the face would be more deadly ,of course. When experienced he never got a chance to try ig. You need considerable reaction and travel speed to evade it, something Jiraiya and this version of Naruto doesn't have

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    • Or smoke bombs, since they can't light what they can't see. And Naruto definitely could dodge in Sage Mode. Smoke Bomb and a sensor field would give Naruto some time to enter it. And since it requires considerable build-up, I'm betting Jiraiya could tell it's coming in the same way Kakashi saw Tsukuyomi coming.

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    • Squinty97 wrote: And since it requires considerable build-up, I'm betting Jiraiya could tell it's coming in the same way Kakashi saw Tsukuyomi coming.

      Back this up lmao. And him knowing it's coming won't help him dodge, cuz he's a slow old man.

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    • Back what up? The fact that Amaterasu requires build up from Itachi?

      Every usage of Itachi shows a build up where he has to close his eye and focus until he can activate it.

      Idk how I can prove that Kakashi saw Tsukuyomi coming except that it's literally what happened.

      ... I'm just gonna assume the last sentence was a joke lol

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    • No, i wanted you to backup Jiraiya knowing Amaterasu will be coming simliar to Kakashi knowing tsukuyomi. Note Kakashi worked with Itachi so maybe that's how he knew?

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    • Kakashi never worked with Itachi when Itachi had the Mangekyo. Itachi was surprised Kakashi knew anything about the mechanics of the Mangekyo later.

      I mean, even Naruto saw Amaterasu coming when he wasn't even in Sage Mode.

      Part 1 Kakashi isn't on Jiraiya's level, and NTCM Naruto can't sense anything except negative emotions, and both were able to sense MS techs coming. So I'm pretty sure Jiraiya can too.

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    • A FANDOM user
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