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  • Squinty97
    Squinty97 closed this thread because:
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    15:24, April 17, 2020

    Itachi is claimed to be highly fast, what are some of his notable speed feats? travel speed feats mostly. THanks.

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    • he kept up with kcm naruto, in edo tensei form, while holding back. he was able to whip out his susanoo fast enough to tank kirin, in the light novels, there was this test where you had to go around throwing shuriken, and itachi got around 30 seconds, which was already stupid fast considering he wasn't even a genin, and he scolded himself for not being faster. he went into the heaven and light scroll chunin exam phase solo, and got the highest record time, still being a genin, and the record still stands, just to name a few.

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    • Also adding his feats while fighting Kakashi and Kurenai in part 1, when he performed techniques like Water Release and Shadow Clone so fast that they could barely keep up with him.

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    • Vs Sasuke, after asking Sasuke, 'How much can he see with his Sharingan.' And Sasuke told him he saw him dead. Itachi zipped to Sasuke's side fast as hell (most likely using the body flicker technique) and told him, 'well make it happen.'

      In the same novel that Rallo is referring to ^^, in the chunin exams. Up against a three man team from another village (That happened to have the opposite scroll he needed to clear the exam). To avoid any prolonged fighting (They had a little scuffle before this) he sped up behind each of them, knocked them out and went on ahead to finish the exam (Chopped them in their necks) - He scared them in the scuffle and they willingly gave him the scroll. If I remember correctly

      Vs Kakashi and co in part one. Kurenai (After she narrowly escaped from Itachi's attack; Releasing his reverse genjutsu) lept over into the water, and as soon as she came to to gauge Itachi's whereabouts. He was instantly right behind her.

      I think he more or less uses the body flicker technique, or simply his chakra to amplify his speed (like Sasuke does).

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    • Besides, regarding the battle against Sasuke, I'm not sure about this feat in the beginning since Zetsu said that they didn't move from their spots and battled through genjutsu for a while. Not denying the rest of the speed feats though.

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    • I see. He asked for travel speed though and not technique speed ^^^

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    • Rallo Tubbs wrote: he kept up with kcm naruto, in edo tensei form, while holding back. he was able to whip out his susanoo fast enough to tank kirin,

      Itachi keeping up with KCM Naruto is not at all impressive since Naruto was the one who was holding back while only wanting to talk with him. Not to mention, Itachi didn't have control over his body.

      Sasuke's Kirin was extremely telegraphed considering he saw the dragon emerge before Sasuke signaled it to come down. So Itachi having Susanoo up is also not that impressive.

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    • I agree with UltimaDude. Edo Tensei is known to literally allow the ressurected to respond to a given attack or situation in the best way possible and autonomously, so Keeping up with KCM Naruto that's not a feat for Itachi whatsoever. It's also not a feat because Naruto wasn't moving at his fastest while in said mode even if Itachi was to have control over his body at that point in time.

      And yes, Kirin was very telegraphed and Susanoo can be activated in an instant. This was shown when Sasuke blocked Danzo's punch with Susanoo before it was visually manifested.

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      • Even if Kirin was telegraphed, Itachi still had to do the reacting. A baseball player would know that a pitcher would be throwing a ball at him, but it's still up to the batsman to react and hit the ball.

      @Senjutsu Sage

      • vs sasuke. after asking sasuke, "how much can he see with his sharingan", and sasuke told him, "he saw him dead". he zipped to sasuke's side fast as hell (most likely using the body flicker technique) and told him "well make it happen

      This was done in genjutsu, but is still something I feel is worth considering, why would Itachi not use his normal moveset in that illusion? not using his normal moveset would immediately relay onto his opponent that it's a genjustu, hence making it pointless to use a genjutsu in the first place.

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    • Yeah I went and rewatched to make sure I wasn't being deceived

      That's a great point. He mirrored himself into the Genjutsu. Meaning, he's literally that fast outside it. (Well that's pretty obvious).

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:

      • Even if Kirin was telegraphed, Itachi still had to do the reacting. A baseball player would know that a pitcher would be throwing a ball at him, but it's still up to the batsman to react and hit the ball.

      Except that, in Itachi's case, Susanoo is manifested on thought and intent (which is pretty much instant), while in the batter's case, he would have to physically react to hit the ball. Conjuring up an nearly instantaneous defense to an extremely telegraphed attack is not that impressive

      This was done in genjutsu, but is still something I feel is worth considering, why would Itachi not use his normal moveset in that illusion? not using his normal moveset would immediately relay onto his opponent that it's a genjustu, hence making it pointless to use a genjutsu in the first place.

      Oooor Itachi wanted to deal mental anguish considering that, in the genjutsu, he plucked out Sasuke's eye. So, the speed displayed in the genjutsu should not be taken seriously

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    • UltimaDude wrote: Except that, in Itachi's case, Susanoo is manifested on thought and intent (which is pretty much instant), while in the batter's case, he would have to physically react to hit the ball. Conjuring up an nearly instantaneous defense to an extremely telegraphed attack is not that impressive

      Note he was heavily fatigued, and near blind with very low stamina. All he had was less than a millisecond to react, transport and solidify his chakra to form susanoo in that state. That's impressive if you ask me. Careful how you use the word 'instant' lol, because susanoo isn't instant (no time).

      Oooor Itachi wanted to deal mental anguish considering that, in the genjutsu, he plucked out Sasuke's eye. So, the speed displayed in the genjutsu should not be taken seriously

      That was tsukuyomi, but I still don't get the point here. Him blitz kicking sasuke to the wall and him plucking Sasuke's eyes out are things that can be done to make the genjutsu remain subtle or to prevent detection that it's a genjutsu because there is not bullshit there like those in the finger genjutsu used on Naruto or the genjutsu used on Orochimaru/KillerBee. Things like Itachi evolving into Frankenstein or a toilet would make things obvious.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Note he was heavily fatigued, and near blind with very low stamina. All he had was less than a millisecond to react, transport and solidify his chakra to form susanoo in that state. That's impressive if you ask me. Careful how you use the word 'instant' lol, because susanoo isn't instant (no time).

      Sasuke forming the lightning, jumping onto high ground, and monologue as he prepares to bring Kirin down is more than enough time for Itachi to prepare to conjure up Susanoo. As soon as Sasuke puts his hand down (which is not that fast), Itachi could easily summon his Susanoo. So no, it's not that impressive. I'm obviously being hyperbolic when I say "pretty much instant". What's impressive is how fast Susanoo was formed not Itachi taking a mental note to Sasuke's rather long setup and telegraphed move

      That was tsukuyomi, but I still don't get the point here. Him blitz kicking sasuke to the wall and him plucking Sasuke's eyes out are things that can be done to make the genjutsu remain subtle or to prevent detection that it's a genjutsu because there is not bullshit there like those in the finger genjutsu used on Naruto or the genjutsu used on Orochimaru/KillerBee. Things like Itachi evolving into Frankenstein or a toilet would make things obvious.

      Itachi never blitzed Sasuke before-hand and now all of a sudden he pinned Sasuke to a wall and that's not BS? The point of the genjutsu was to deal mental anguish, not trick the opponent. Just like Itachi plucking Sasuke's eye out, him blitzing Sasuke should not be taken seriously.

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    • the natural lightning that is Kirin reaches the ground in 1/1000th of a second, and black zetsu says so in the manga too. Itachi was already just about blind at this point and his reaction speed was greater than 1/1000th of a second and that is a feat all in its own.

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    • Nah, his reaction speed isn't great than 1/1000th of a second. That's non-sense considering he was literally looking at Sasuke swinging his hand down. He literally saw Sasuke swing his hand down before he decided to activate Susanoo.

      If I see you beginning to squeeze the trigger of a gun and move myself out the aiming sights of your gun before you completely pull it and shoot the gun, does that mean I dodged the bullet? No, it doesn't. It just means I moved out the way before you pulled the trigger.

      Naruto Chapter 467, Manga Page 3, Panel 1:

      • It shows Danzo literally landing the punch he threw at Sasuke, but he literally hit Susanoo before it has even manifested visually. Literally in the panel he hit Sasuke in, we as readers see absolutely no Susanoo and Danzo said "!? What...?" because even he was shocked that his punch was blocked. As far as we can tell, Susanoo, or at least parts of it, can be conjured instantly because of that very panel. Itachi didn't need to react, he just needed to activate it at the moment Sasuke swung his hand down. Technique Activation and Body Reaction Speed are two different things. Minato was known for his very fast reaction speed and foot speed, but A with his LRCM was physically faster than No-FTG Minato.

      @Jason of the Mangekyou

      "Careful how you use the word 'instant' lol, because susanoo isn't instant (no time)."

      Naruto Chapter 467, Manga Page 3, Panel 1 proves you wrong. Go back and read the manga.


      I rest my case. You can't argue with die hard Itachi fans, they'll never admit they are wrong.

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    • LMAO WUT. The databook and the manga say Kirin launched and landed at 1/1000th of a second. Itachi had to have Susanoo up for that meaning he had to react to that. HOW do you not get that??

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    • "I rest my case. You can't argue with die hard Itachi fans, they'll never admit they are wrong."

      Loool, Naruto fans and Madara fans are worse. Even Minato fans

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    • Nah man, I used to think Itachi fans were worse until I came across some Minato fans.. some of them think Minato could solo even Kaguya and they aren't kidding.

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    • XXXDDDDDDD. He speed blitzes everybody in a 1/4 of a millisecond. He doesn't throw his kunai anymore 🤦‍♀. Or has to have you marked. To be or seem fast

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    • FlatZone wrote: LMAO WUT. The databook and the manga say Kirin launched and landed at 1/1000th of a second. Itachi had to have Susanoo up for that meaning he had to react to that. HOW do you not get that??

      Itachi may not have just reacted to Kirin alone, he might have reacted to Sasuke bringing his hand down. Also, let's say he did react to just Kirin: He conjured a nearly-instantaneous defense which doesn't translate over to physical speed.

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    • I never said physical speed, I said reaction speed and in the manga panels shown Sasuke is a blurry spec to Itachi. I literally just went back and looked at the panels. Itachi was reacting to the change in light around him as Kirin was being summoned the entire area got brigher, and it was brightest right when Sasuke throw his hand down and Kirin struck Itachi at 1/1000th of a second. Itachi was already just about blind at the time, so this is a pure reaction feat on his end. For physical speed we can talk about him casually dodging B's Sword Dance that Sasuke could not escape or dodge and ended up getting stabbed up. Itachi also was going toe to toe in physical combat with Sage Mode Kabuto and only got hit when Kabuto did sneaky shit that nobody expected like shoot out of the snake body, or when Itachi was aiming to protect Sasuke mid battle. Physically Itachi's speed is Sage Mode Kabuto level over-all and even then Itachi was holding back as not to kill Kabuto the entire time while worrying about protecting Sasuke and with the added goal saving Kabuto halfway through. Not to mention Edo Tensei are still weaker than their living selves regardless in all ways.

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    • UltimaDude wrote: Sasuke forming the lightning, jumping onto high ground, and monologue as he prepares to bring Kirin down is more than enough time for Itachi to prepare to conjure up Susanoo. As soon as Sasuke puts his hand down (which is not that fast), Itachi could easily summon his Susanoo. So no, it's not that impressive.

      So if Kirin was light speed, Itachi preparing to conjure it up would still allow him to block it right? lol. You fail it comprehend the speed of kirin, roughly more than 250 times the speed of sound, Itachi would not have reacted to kirin if it was an attack that moves at light speed, but he did react to an attack he was capable of reacting to. Also Itachi was staring at kirin the whole time, Sasuke's hand moving down is irrelevant, after kirin was launched he had less than a millisecond to react and conjure up susanooo in his state. Impressive.


      Itachi never blitzed Sasuke before-hand and now all of a sudden he pinned Sasuke to a wall and that's not BS? The point of the genjutsu was to deal mental anguish, not trick the opponent. Just like Itachi plucking Sasuke's eye out, him blitzing Sasuke should not be taken seriously.

      The only Sasuke he fought was kid Sasuke, so sure blitz a kid. The very fact that Sasuke didn't try to break the genjutsu immdeiately after the saw the two blitz was because he bought it, he was ok with it, he thought itachi was capable of something like that. Him also blizting 3 adult uchiha's backs this up. The type of tsukuyomi Itachi used was not like Kakashi's, so if he wanted to deal mental whatever he would've used that. Itachi wanted to make the genjutsu seem real, so he made it real by being real.

      Princeharris1993 wrote: @Jason of the Mangekyou "Careful how you use the word 'instant' lol, because susanoo isn't instant (no time)." Naruto Chapter 467, Manga Page 3, Panel 1 proves you wrong. Go back and read the manga. I rest my case. You can't argue with die hard Itachi fans, they'll never admit they are wrong.

      Seems like you're the one who needs to do the reading because 467 has no danzo in It. Atleast find the right chapter. You're saying susanoo is instant, but the human brain to consciously conjure up thoughts is not, instant is 0.000, atleast to my knowledge

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    • This whole reacting to lightning thing is less impressive when you remember Kakashi also reacted to a bolt of lightning. And he didn't have Sasuke monologuing and telegraphing the strike.

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    • Kakashi indeed did react to it, but he had the Sharingan, wasn't nearly blind and nearly dead, and was at full health. Itachi was on deaths door when he did this and as shwon from his perspective all he saw was a spec of a blur when he was looking at Sasuke up atop that stone structure. He could not see actually see Sasuke let alone Sasuke's arms, the only thing he could see was extreme blurs and the level of light change, combined with the fact that he's not deaf so he where Sasuke's voice was coming from. You all keep saying this "he choreographed it" bullshit, no all he said was that Itachi couldn't escape this one, and it was unblockable like Amaterasu then he says dissappear with the thunder. Itachi only saw the sky get brighter.

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    • The anime portrays it as him just running up a mountain with him holding up a hand charged with raikiri...what react?

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    • That was the anime alone, and in that filler Kakashi somehow knew when and where the lightning was going to strike, some bs filler pre-cognition.

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    • It's the only representation of the feat we got, the manga has nothing but a statement of him cutting it...the only feat I see here is Kakashi being capable of cutting a lightning bolt, and not reacting to one.

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    • What do you think, he just let a Lightning bolt fall on his hand and that's how he got his name? Lol it said he cut the bolt of lightning in half, not that the lightning cut itself on Kakashi.

      Besides, even on some weird filler, if it shows him running up a mountain going for Lightning, that just means he know approximately where it's going to strike right? He still has to react and actually cut it.

      I haven't seen the filler though, anyone know the ep?

      Also btw @Jason, just because it's the only representation, doesn't make it accurate. I mean, look at Asura and Indra fights in filler. they're just copy and pastes of Naruto and Sasuke and Hashirama. They're the only fight scenes we have of them, but we know Asura and Indra didn't just happen to have techniques identical to ones created generations later.

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    • You don't know how it happened, neither do any of us, he has never performed anything close, which is why this statement is never used to scale him in debates. The means of which it was made possible is unknown.

      • if it shows him running up a mountain going for Lightning, that just means he know approximately where it's going to strike right? He still has to react and actually cut it

      No. He can just hold up raikiri and keep running... The episode is Naruto Shippuden Episode 288

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    • ? So you think Kakashi was running and Lightning fell on his hand and that's why he nicknamed the technique Lightning cutter?

      Kakashi cut the lightning. The lightning did not cut itself on Kakashi lol.

      Ninja in general are moving so fast and have insane reaction speeds already. I don't find it implausible for the faster Ninja of the series to be able to react to Lightning. In Kakashi's case, it'd make more sense for him to be standing still, since I don't think he's got travel speeds close to Lightning. He'd just have to block the strike of Lightning.

      Honestly a lot of Ninja might be able to react to Kirin but not many might be fast enough to do anything about it. Itachi was fast enough to pull up a technique (after much explaining and also a visual indicator of the technique about to occur). That's not too impressive to me.

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    • LMAO Sasuke did not do "Much explaining" and the only visual indicator was the sky getting brighter. Again Itachi saw nothing but a blurry spec and that would be Sasuke, Itachi then sees the sky get brighter. Lightning STRIKES at 1/1000th of a second. Itachi reacting to that AT ALL is a feat on its own, considering he was just about blind and near death. Kakashi had NO excuses whatsoever, his eyesight was fine and he somehew KNEW where the bolt was going to strike so he went to that spot. Itachi would have outright died if he did not react and time it just right.

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    • Sasuke described his technique as his final technique and noted that Itachi couldn't dodge. Then raised his whole arm above his head, and swung it to well past his waist, which is one visual indicator (Itachi still had one working Sharingan. Though the eyesight was blurry, it could still see and even from that distance, the movement itself would be noticeable, even if he couldn't make out the exact form).

      And then he saw the sky get brighter, after all that. So yeah, Itachi had some set up.

      Considering Kakashi was a kid (or a teen or whichever), I'd say it's still pretty impressive. Sure his eyesight was fine, but remember he wasn't even a master of the Sharingan when he was a full grown adult. He gained much expertise, but he was never on the level of Itachi, and he certainly wasn't as good when he was that young.

      Yes it's all impressive that Itachi reacted to Lightning (with all the set up included), but considering Kakashi did it as well, it's not super impressive. Especially given that even though Itachi was sick, he was still way more formidable than Kakashi, and that's been well established. So Itachi managed to do something sick and blind that Kakashi could do at full health. All I'm saying is it adds up and all in all is not the most impressive thing compared to some other feats in the series.

      It also comes to my attention that this tangent is pretty off-topic, since the OP wanted travel speed feats lol

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    • Itachi's movement speed is insane anyay. He was able to casually backtrack and dodge B'Sword Dance, and then dodge his Samehada Blow and jump up onto the bird in a literal blur of speed. B couldn't actually touch Itachi for the most part.

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    • So part 1 Kakashi, predicted the weather, stood in place, wait for lightning to come and activated raikiri, raised his hand up and cut it in just a millisecond...yeah no.

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    • No, he didn't predict the weather. He reacted to a bolt of Lightning that was probably going to hit him. And then cut it.

      Not such a hard thing to believe lol. Less hard to believe than him naming his technique after a Lightning bolt just falling on his hand.

      Again though, this thread is about movement speed, not reaction speed.

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    • Itachi doesn't have any travel speed feats. Itachi also has very few combat speed feats. Btw, Edo Itachi having a skirmish with NTCM Naruto while they are having a conversation is at best a bad speed feat. It doesn't indicate anything other than they didn't want to fight but played along since they wanted to converse.

      Also, to the people who still think Itachi reacted to lighting, lol. In case users also seem to forget the power of prediction/perception, which lies in the sharingan user correctly predicting an attack and then having the ability to counter. Which can be confused for purely reaction and movement speed.

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    • Him reacting to lightning is just a reaction feat, not travel.

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    • @Jason

      Itachi attacked them off screen, so saying he blitzed them is your interpretation only. Killer Bee used acrobat and Itachi retreated, don't see a speed feat there, a feat of speed means something when a character can keep up or outpace, not retreat. Are you talking about slicing sage Kabuto's horn? If so, Kabuto mentioned he forgot he had horns in that mode, so it was an oversight that was not compensated for. So compensated for, he would counter.

      Also, Kirin was predicted and countered, so it wasn't a pure reaction feat.

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    • The manga showed speedlines, with a next panel telling use blows are launched hinting a blitz, so saying he didn't is your interpretation only. Bee is fast, and as a swordsman he failed to land a single blow, if he was faster, hitting Itachi, which was his goal,would have been no problemo. A speed feat is simply the greater speed at which a character moves compared to the speed of his opponent, don't fancy the meanings lol. Nevertheless, Itachi was aiming for his horn and no where vital. The pics i showed is travel speed feat, he moved over a good distance in a short time making his opponents seem motionless.


      Predicted? you gotta elaborate here lmao

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    • you have to be faster than your opponent to escape form them unscathed, especially Killer B who had 8 Swords at the ready and was trying to incapacitate Itachi. He couldn't touch Itachi. For that matter NTCM Naruto couldn't incapacitate him either or he would have and could only block each others blows whilst talking. You don't need to seal an Edo to talk to one and it would damn sure be easier to talk to one once they are incapacitated.

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    • Blitz on Uchiha is interpretation, and honsetly it's more of combat speed feat rather than a travel speed feat.

      Vs Killer Bee, there's a case to be made there. Probably. Idk how hard Bee was trying if they were trying to listen, but iirc they weren't conversing much then so yeah, that's a possible speed feat. Again though, more combat speed feat than travel speed feat.

      Sage Kabuto just forgot his horns were there lol, he obviously dodged as much as he thought was necessary.

      He dodged Bee then jumped away, but the position of Bee and Naruto don't indicate his speed in the next panel. Because we see his path, and we can tell he isn't going super because he returns to the ground several times. And from this, we can tell that his one bound wasn't fast enough to bring him back before gravity pulled him back down, with gravity being the constant here.

      He predicted it because he had his Sharingan active and listen to Sasuke monologue about his next tech which couldn't be dodged then watched Sasuke's hand come from way above his head to below his waist, which even at their distance would make a noticeable movement in Sasuke's shape. And again, even reacting to Lightning isn't the most impressive feat for Itachi because Kakashi did it too.

      @Flatzone, Naruto was quite clearly not trying too hard against Itachi and just listening to what he had to say. And incapacitating an Edo to the point where they are not sealed so they can still talk but also not able to break free via Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi is much harder than just blocking punches from someone you're much faster than.

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    • Again, Itachi was just about blind, it was raining out and it was dark out. All he saw from Sasuke was a dark blur in the distance, Itachi was listening to Sasuke's voice and heard where he was coming from. From there he reacts to the change in light when Sasuke has Kirin summoned. Itachi himself had to have PERFECT reaction speed and timing so that Kirin didn't kill his blind and near death self before he could rid Sasuke of Orochimaru. So that indeed is a feat for Itachi and it is an insane feat considering he was just about blind and near death. You also forget that Zetsu even mentions Itachi's movements and performance are slower and worse than what he has done before showing that Itachi was on his literal worst day of his life physically and all and still managed to do all the things he did and still reacted to and blocked Kirin with Susanoo near perfectly. Kakashi had NO excuses and he also had the Sharingan at the time, he wasn't blind and he was't near death. He saw the lightning clouds and went to where the lightning was predicted to fall by him and lifted his hand and caught the bolt coming down(the anime's portrayal is he didn't really cut it). He was using Chidori which is lightning release.. which attracts lightning and can counter lightning as shown vs Kakuzu, Itachi had no lightning release just to add on further to his feat.

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    • Even from their distance, Itachi was looking at Sasuke, so he could still make out his shape. So even if it was just a blob, he can see the blob's movement if it's as drastic as raising your arm above your head then swinging it all the way down.

      Nothing indicates it was dark out. It was just cloudy. Plus Lightning crackled before the tech hit so we know Itachi saw some brightness before Sasuke attacked as well.

      Yeah, Itachi had to have impressive reactions to get the timing right. But he pretty much knew exactly when it was coming, so it's not as impressive as you want it to be.

      It's a reaction and predictive feat at best, not even a travel feat.

      I never forgot Zetsu's comments. I even made mention of the fact that Itachi was sick in an above comment. I'm not super impressed with it because Itachi was always noted to be above Kakashi even while sick. So the fact that sick Itachi managed to do something that Kid Kakashi at full health could do isn't surprising because it's already established that Itachi is more formidable than Kakashi.

      There's nothing saying that Lightning Release attracts Lightning Release. Kakashi just blocked the Lightning. Otherwise, Sasuke would be at risk of getting hit because he had Chidori active when using Kirin and was higher than Itachi. Kakashi reacted to Lightning, plain and simple. And he didn't have Sasuke as an auditory and visual cue to get ready either. Yes he had full health and vision. But full health and vision Kakashi is already established to be below sick Itachi. So it's not surprising.

      Again though, we're looking for travel speed. Not reaction time.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: The manga showed speedlines, with a next panel telling use blows are launched hinting a blitz, so saying he didn't is your interpretation only. Bee is fast, and as a swordsman he failed to land a single blow, if he was faster, hitting Itachi, which was his goal,would have been no problemo. A speed feat is simply the greater speed at which a character moves compared to the speed of his opponent, don't fancy the meanings lol. Nevertheless, Itachi was aiming for his horn and no where vital. The pics i showed is travel speed feat, he moved over a good distance in a short time making his opponents seem motionless.


      Predicted? you gotta elaborate here lmao

      Again, it's your interpretation that it was a speed feat, no facts support it. You consider retreating a speed feat? Not dodging or countering? That's quite a low bar and doesn't indicate much. It actually looks bad on Itachi, conceding that he is not fast enough to take Bee close up.

      Uhm, I think you are confused on how feats work, if Itachi shows a physical ability then it is a feat, Itachi not doing anything doesn't constitute a feat. So equating Bee's actions to an inactive Itachi doesn't give Itachi a feat. Well, the meaning is important as I just indicated.

      So you agree there is no speed feat against Sage Kabuto? Yeah, moving back while others don't is a very low bar.

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    • The manga speed line is all I need. You're just saying no. The anime had it in a similar fashion, 3 hits and 3 guys down. ...So why did bee fail to land a single hit on Itachi? You're fancying the meaning of speed feat, If bee was faster he would've caught Itachi even though he was evading in a backwards fashion.The next panels show he had other plans than to fight bee. Also in the pic i sent above, it shows him dodging a strike from bee even with his back turned lmao.


      How is Itachi not doing anything when he is in motion, evading bee's strikes...the same thing happened in sasuke's case, but he got hit ,Itachi didn't whether you like it or not.

      Why did you ignore my comment lol, I said he aimed for a non vital spot, who's to say Kabuto would have been able to dodge had Itachi aimed at somewhere vital, and maybe was fighting with the intention to kill.

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    • A typical manga movement line that leads to an off-screen instance doesn't indicate relative speeds. Why did Itachi retreat? Because he conceded he couldn't take Bee close-up. If Itachi was faster he would have gone in close range. Other plans meaning retreating?

      And I indicated Kabuto saying he forgot he had horns there. So why do you ignore that fact? Does it harm your argument?

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    • Then check the anime if you're having a hard time understanding what the manga artist was trying to portray. I explained in my comment why Itachi retreated ,the manga shows why he retreated, his goal was the crow at that time. I provided the scans to show you that Bee overcame sasuke in speed with the same move, but failed to do the same with Itachi, that is the question here, and that is what you turned a blind eye to.


      I acknowledged your reply, countering it saying Itachi didn't aim for a vital spot omg...it is a fact that he wasn't trying to kill kabuto.

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    • Nope, I acknowledge that it is your interpretation. Not the facts. His goal was the crow? He was controlled by Kabuto to attack/counter Bee at the time, how does his own goals matter here? Looking at your scans, Sasuke didn't retreat, Itachi did. If I recall correctly, Itachi started retreating even before Bee started attacking. Not blind-eying like you here.

      Itachi didn't aim for a vital spot? How is that a counter to sage Kabuto forgetting he had horns there? He didn't dodge correctly, because he forgot, Itachi aiming has nothing to do with Kabuto forgetting. What don't you understand about that?

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    • As do I, believe what you will, the anime has it pretty clear so boo hoo. I don't get where you're trying to go with this, but he went for the crow end of story lol, Kabuto uses a level of control on his edo's that usually allows the undermining of their summoner to a extent, they can make poor decisions or even tell their weakness to their opponent (3rd Raikage). Itachi wasn't fully controlled as Nagato was, so like I said he evaded the blows and went for the crow, if not he could've just stayed and perform amaterasu spam on bee.... Bee failed to tag him, speed feat earned, not because a character is retreating means he's achieved god speed if bee was faster he could've easily caught up to a character who's running backwards lmao.

      I accept defeat on the sage kabuto bit, the dude was dangling from the ceiling afterall, won't be a proper feat.

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    • Itachi was literally outpacing B while going backwards.. thats hilarious. Itachi also moved so fast away from Bee's Samehada Slash that again he was a blur.

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    • And? I can back run backwards than a boxer can comfortably advance. Just retreating doesn't mean you're faster in a race, especially if your opponent is focused on actually swinging and attacking.

      Also how is the blur thing an argument? Naruto was a blur against Neji in the Chunin exams lol

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    • @Jason

      The anime confirms what I said about Itachi retreating before Bee attacking, so I don't know what you are seeing. Yeah edos can talk, because their personalities are not suppressed as Kabuto said, their actions however are limited to counter/attack their enemies. So, in this case, Itachi's "goal of the crow" doesn't matter. He simply retreated from Bee's attack because he was unable to counter. Feat for Bee then.

      @Squinty97

      Yeah, I don't know man. Users these days think retreating is a speed feat lol. When did the supposed bar for feats get this low?

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    • See this is why people like to ignore you two when it comes to Itachi and Minato. Because you two will take ANYTHING Itachi does and try to turn it into nothing. What you are saying is ONLY your interpretation(of course its wrong, but you can't see or won't admit that). So to any users here trying to argue with these two over something like this just do yourself a favor and ignore them they are notorious for this.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: The anime confirms what I said about Itachi retreating before Bee attacking, so I don't know what you are seeing.

      Yeah F the manga, plus I don't see it, he only started after bee started using his 8 sword technique...and like i said, if bee was faster he would've caught up lmao...this is actually not hard to understand. It's like the same with Madara and Sasuke in the war, sasuke was swinging and madara kept dodging whilst heading backwards...

      Yeah edos can talk, because their personalities are not suppressed as Kabuto said, their actions however are limited to counter/attack their enemies. So, in this case, Itachi's "goal of the crow" doesn't matter. He simply retreated from Bee's attack because he was unable to counter. Feat for Bee then.

      What's the feat? swinging 100 times and missing 100 times?...he retreated from bee by evading his atks because he couldn't counter? so acrobat>>>susanoo, because he sure as hell could've whipped that up and smash bee. Acrobat>>amaterasu also. The only conlusion i can get from the type of logic being used here is that if a character is retreating they've achieved god speed💀💀😂

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    • @Jason

      Why F the manga? Yeah and Itachi started retreating. You seem to be conflating retreating, outpacing and reacting, which are different things and so doesn't present your argument in the best light. Why does Bee have to follow Itachi retreating for Itachi not to have a feat? Why did Itachi retreat from the get-go?

      It's telling that Itachi didn't/couldn't counter Bee, you can argue otherwise but that fact does not care.

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    • cUZ you ignored it and went to the anime. The character i'm siding displayed travel speed feat against a fast character, you're denying that because he was retreating, which is a poor rebuttal and only proves your character to be the slower one of the two. the bottom right panel is where he retreated,after successfully evading all of bee's blows.

      Itachi didn't counter because he had no intention to, read the chapter it's there, you can see him making the decision to not counter. Btw since you're stuck on that it means you agree acrobat>>>>susanoo?😂😂

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    • That's your speculation again, if the narrator wanted Itachi to counter instead of EASILY evading B who was CLEARLY trying to incapacitate Itachi with his 8 Sword Dance while going AFTER Itachi then he would have. B couldn't touch Itachi and that's the fact. Itachi's speed and reaction times were better than B's.. and that was WHILE being controlled by Kabuto which we know isn't as good as an Edo who is not being controlled. B couldn't catch or touch Itachi therefor B was slower by bodily speed and hand speed as he had swords in his hand too and they could not land a single touch on him.

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    • @Jason

      Nope, didn't ignore it. Well, you brought up the anime, so I corrected you by pointing out that the anime agrees with me. Itachi retreated proves he couldn't counter, and as I said before, is a low bar for a speed feat.

      "See edo Itachi making a decision?" 1) That's pure speculation. 2) Did you already forget Itachi was programmed to attack/counter Bee and had no control of his actions?

      So please answer my previous question again.

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      • The manga scan i just sent shows you where he really retreated omg, you're just ignoring it.....
      • I brought up the anime for the uchiha blitzing scene......
      • He had control over his actions, don't tell me kabuto would allow him to break free using koto lol.....
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    • @Jason

      Your beloved motion lines betray you there though. Showing Itachi withdrawing. Which leads to the next point and your quote...

      Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: As do I, believe what you will, the anime has it pretty clear so boo hoo.

      Which I answered:

      Ninja Of War wrote:

      The anime confirms what I said about Itachi retreating before Bee attacking, so I don't know what you are seeing.

      Lol, the crow with Koto was programmed beforehand, Itachi was controlled.

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    • FlatZone wrote: See this is why people like to ignore you two when it comes to Itachi and Minato. Because you two will take ANYTHING Itachi does and try to turn it into nothing. What you are saying is ONLY your interpretation(of course its wrong, but you can't see or won't admit that). So to any users here trying to argue with these two over something like this just do yourself a favor and ignore them they are notorious for this.

      Yeah I haven't met anyone who decided to ignore me over either character, so if that's the case, cite your sources lol.

      No, I don't make his feats nothing. I'm just reminding you of the context the feats were in, which adds perspective.

      It's not only "my" interpretation because there are others who agree with me. That doesn't make it 100% ironclad of course, but to say it's only me saying these things or thinking these things is pretty much a lie.

      Lol ah yes. "Hey everyone, if you disagree with these two, just ignore them. Because that's how good discussions are had!"

      If you actually did have an argument for my post preceding this one, lemme know.

      @Jason Sasuke was swinging and Madara was defending, but not retreating. His goal was not to get away from the fight. Just like Sasuke vs Bee, Sasuke was not trying to get away from the fight. The only one who actually tried to get away was Itachi. And saying Bee would have just caught up if he was fast enough is silly. Just giving chase immediately when someone runs makes it easier for them to land a surprise counter. You ever see fighters in real life? When one retreats and the other just bolts forward, they're often put down immediately because they switched from fighting to chasing. A speed feat would be if Bee actually was running after Itachi and Itachi kept pace or gained distance.

      Acrobat kept Itachi too off-balance for Amaterasu because Itachi has shown several times he needs build up for it. As for Susanoo, I don't have any explanation for that besides the fact that Kabuto continued to fail to utilize Itachi and Nagato to the fullest extent of their abilities.

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    • ^ this is what I am talking about, it's much easier to ignore these two than to waste the time trying with them. Go back and look at most Itachi and Minato topics and you will see what I am talking about @Jason of the Mangekyo. Trust me

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    • Squinty97 wrote: Lol ah yes. "Hey everyone, if you disagree with these two, just ignore them. Because that's how good discussions are had!"

      If you actually did have an argument for my post preceding this one, lemme know.

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    • @Ninja...I think you've lost me lol. The statements of mine you mentioned there are all made regarding Itachi blitzing the 3 Uchiha's and not about Killer Bee (the manga speed-line, and me requesting that you check the anime)..........


      @Squinty and Ninja...Madara was doing the same thing Itachi was doing against bee, run backward/evading strikes? [1] madara then retreated to battle the bijju, as Itachi retreated to use the crow. [2]

      • From those pic comparisons, and by using Ninja of War's logic i can get that, Madara can't beat Sasuke or counter sasuke, that's why he retreated and that Madara is slower than Sasuke. gg
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    • @Jason

      This is what you have stated:

      Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: As do I, believe what you will, the anime has it pretty clear so boo hoo. I don't get where you're trying to go with this, but he went for the crow end of story lol, Kabuto uses a level of control on his edo's that usually allows the undermining of their summoner to a extent, they can make poor decisions or even tell their weakness to their opponent (3rd Raikage). Itachi wasn't fully controlled as Nagato was, so like I said he evaded the blows and went for the crow, if not he could've just stayed and perform amaterasu spam on bee.... Bee failed to tag him, speed feat earned, not because a character is retreating means he's achieved god speed if bee was faster he could've easily caught up to a character who's running backwards lmao.

      I accept defeat on the sage kabuto bit, the dude was dangling from the ceiling afterall, won't be a proper feat.

      If you say you weren't talking about Itachi then ok, just, sentence structure-wise you made that point against a point of mine regarding Itachi. Though I would like to add, you brought up the anime as a point, so I should be able to as well.

      Dodging and retreating are not the same tho, Madara was dodging until he found a moment to grab Sasuke's sword if I recall. Itachi was retreating from the get go (I'll use the anime as reference, since you brought it in first place), and then didn't go for close combat.

      My logic? Lol, my stance is that there is not much positive said about retreating from an attack, and is an extremely low bar for a speed feat. Meaning you'll have to use better instances, clear observed for speed feats. How do you get Madara is slower than Sasuke from that?

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: If you say you weren't talking about Itachi then ok, just, sentence structure-wise you made that point against a point of mine regarding Itachi. Though I would like to add, you brought up the anime as a point, so I should be able to as well.

      Fair Point. However when you said the anime had itachi retreating from the start, I said i don't see it, i still don't. Care to point it out atleast ;-;...

      Dodging and retreating are not the same tho, Madara was dodging until he found a moment to grab Sasuke's sword if I recall. Itachi was retreating from the get go (I'll use the anime as reference, since you brought it in first place), and then didn't go for close combat.

      Madara simply stopped dodging and allowed himself to be stabbed. RETREAT is when he used the fire release and left to go fight the bijju, RETREAT is when Itachi left to use the crow. SEE IT ALREADY.


      My logic? Lol, my stance is that there is not much positive said about retreating from an attack, and is an extremely low bar for a speed feat. Meaning you'll have to use better instances, clear observed for speed feats. How do you get Madara is slower than Sasuke from that?

      Sasuke is fast, and yet he was failing to tag Madara, doesn't that indicate he's slower than the latter? Also, Madara can't counter Sasuke right? because Itachi was evading means he can't, according to you, even tho we both know that both Uchiha's is capable of countering.

      Also for the millionth time this is called retreating [1] the other is just him evading.

      Also see how your argument is dumb by observing this since Sakura is running backward, she has now achieved the speed of the gods. All hail

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    • @Jason

      Episode 198 or 199, not sure at the moment. In the episode when the skirmish occurs, Itachi retreats as Bee jumps forward to attack. The motion lines of the manga also agree with me.

      Why is this different to Madara dodging? Madara was staying in close combat with Sasuke to grab his sword and talk. Itachi was retreating because he could not compete with Bee in close combat. See the difference?

      Jason of the Mangekyou wrote:

      Also for the millionth time this is called retreating [1] the other is just him evading.

      Also see how your argument is dumb by observing this since Sakura is running backward, she has now achieved the speed of the gods. All hail

      So you concede that Itachi was retreating, finally.

      Anyway gonna repost my statement again since you don't seem to understand it.

      Ninja Of War wrote:

      My logic? Lol, my stance is that there is not much positive said about retreating from an attack, and is an extremely low bar for a speed feat.

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    • No it's not, Itachi was faster moving backwards than B was moving forwards. It's really not so hard to understand in fact I believe you do understand it but instead you are doing your usual thing.

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    • Ignoring context is fun lol.

      Moving forward while attacking is not the same as actually running forward. Bee obviously wasn't moving his top speed because he was attacking. It's really not hard to understand.

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    • You still don't get it.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote: Episode 198 or 199, not sure at the moment. In the episode when the skirmish occurs, Itachi retreats as Bee jumps forward to attack. The motion lines of the manga also agree with me.

      The specific thing would be nice man, but also keep in mind Manga>> Anime.

      Why is this different to Madara dodging? Madara was staying in close combat with Sasuke to grab his sword and talk. Itachi was retreating because he could not compete with Bee in close combat. See the difference?

      But before he took the stab he was dodging, just like Itachi. And again you're saying retreating, the pic i showed you of retreating is the only retreating done in that scene, if he wanted to really retreat right away, he could've just jump to the bird on the get go. But he was evading blows.

      So you concede that Itachi was retreating, finally.

      At the last scene, which is not the case here. The case is Bee failing to hit him, like Sasuke failing to hit Madara.+


      Ninja Of War wrote: Anyway gonna repost my statement again since you don't seem to understand it. My logic? Lol, my stance is that there is not much positive said about retreating from an attack, and is an extremely low bar for a speed feat.

      This is still you who doesn't know what the retreat is. Send a pic of the retreat you're seeing atleast.

      If sasuke fails to tag Sakura, then Sakura is faster than him Apply that here.

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    • Ep 298^

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    • I'd hardly call Itachi reacting to Lightning a speed feat. And Kakashi did the same thing. It's safe to say Sharingan user's have that capability.

      KCM Naruto and Itachi chitchatting isn't really one either.

      He doesn't really have any speed feats except when he seemingly disappears and leaves a clone behind in his place before someone is aware.

      All I know is Kishimoto stated he's faster than part 3 Base Rock Lee and part 3 Base Sasuke. Unless there's something that shows in the Manga or something stated later on that conflicts with that, then you can go by that.

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    • JamesSenpai wrote: All I know is Kishimoto stated he's faster than part 3 Base Rock Lee and part 3 Base Sasuke. Unless there's something that shows in the Manga or something stated later on that conflicts with that, then you can go by that.

      When did he say that?

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    • Senjutsu Sage wrote: Ep 298^

      Thanks.

      @Jason

      Again dodging is not the same as retreating. Dodging is within combat zone, retreat is out of combat zone.

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    • Some of Itachi's speed feats are him making multiple Jonin lose track of him quite easily while holding back, switching with clones so fast that Sasuke never had a clue in P2 until it was too late anyway, and the fact B could never touch him. B is NOT slow with hand/attack speed or physical speed and he has proven that. The fact Itachi as an EDO possessed the speed to taijutsu clash with Sage Kabuto is impressive too considering Sage Kabuto is a Sage Mode user and by far is not slow by any means.

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    • Squinty97 wrote: When did he say that?

      Databook Stats.

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    • The DB stats are tiered and are not meant to be totaled up. For example Gai and Tsunade each have a 5 in strength but Tsunade is clearly physically stronger. Itachi is indeed in a higher tier than them in almost everything. Also most of the DB2 and 3 stats don't account for transformations, KKG, or jinchuriki abilities. Oh, and one more thing.. Itachi's DB stats are him from P2 up to his death, and he was sick in P2 going to show that even then his stats are mostly in the highest tier, he essentially ties with Jiraiya who is not sick.

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    • Ninja Of War wrote:

      Senjutsu Sage wrote: Ep 298^

      Thanks.

      @Jason

      Again dodging is not the same as retreating. Dodging is within combat zone, retreat is out of combat zone.

      Ep 298 has nothing Itachi related. I asked for a pic of the retreating you're seeing, got nothing.....

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    • Part 2 Ep 298, it's literally titled Naruto vs Itachi lol.

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    • His comment was edited from 297 to 298, when it was 297 i had checked then and didn't notice the change...i need the specific scene and why are ignoring:

      • I asked for a pic of the retreating you're seeing, got nothing.....
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    • Jason of the Mangekyou
      Jason of the Mangekyou removed this reply because:
      spam
      20:19, February 1, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • FlatZone wrote: The DB stats are tiered and are not meant to be totaled up.

      Doesn't really change what I said, seeing as both Sasuke and Lee are 4, and Itachi is a 5. So Kishimoto made it clear that Itachi in his base is faster than their base.

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    • @Ninja. No problem

      @Jason. Yeah, that was a mistake. Sorry ^^. If you scan ep 298 you'll definitely find it this time. If not, the next episode. But i'm sure it's 298 cause I recently watched

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    • Well yeah, Itachi is faster than them he has saved Sasuke many times vs Kabuto as an Edo when Sasuke couldn't even react. Itachi's speed is another of his top traits. He is deceptively fast to the point Kurenai, Asuma, and Kakashi couldn't notice he switched with a clone until it was too late. Shit he switched with a clone so fast Sasuke couldn't even see it in P2, and his hands are so fast that while tying in Kunai/Shuriken with Sasuke who was using the Lightning Flash Seals on his wrist he was also able to make as clone and hand seals and Sasuke who has the Sharingan never knew(this Itachi is the same Itachi zetsu said was slower than he should have been and had worse reaction speeds than he should have, also the same Itachi Obito said could have killed Sasuke if he wanted) Itachi's only downfall is his stamina levels, they are more comparable to Kakashi's though as Sasuke found out it takes a lot of chakra to be able to use Susanoo and Itachi was able to do that so I would say he might have a bit more chakra than Kakashi too.

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    • @Jason

      Not gonna make a imgur account just for this. I've given you the episode, that's enough for the point I'm making. Also, if you wanna say it's anime only, I'd cite the wiki policy regarding anime portrayals of the manga as canon, so yeah.

      To sum up our (long) discussion, Itachi retreating is a extremely low bar for a speed feat. So gonna look for better ones.

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    • @Ninja of war

      You can use the manga to show what i'm asking for, just the chapter, page and panel is needed if you can't post images.

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    • Itachi is faster than all sans Rikūdo Characters, and the fact that there is an hype-filled feature narrative affirming that assertion, only serves to settle that stone on the wall-screens.

      KCM Naruto's body flicker speeds needn't be illustrated repeatedly for the viewers to grasp the idea that he's flat-out inferior - the author pre-established his expertise in that area like a chapter ago, impliciting the plain fact that he's significantly superior.

      Sauce blitz innard illusion should be interpreted exceptionally as it's indicative of the authorial intents that supercedes the subjectivity of features in general physically anyways.

      No one fucking believes SM TI Nardo's Mindscape struggle as illegitimate does it? Cause from what I'm seeing that explicitly validates the legitimacy of the presumption, or premise, that he's >>>/= 50% Yang Kūrama - that's flipping the coin, when the exact same brigade that believes prior subsequently invalidates the transpired feature conccurently.

      Wrecked Kakashi lacking KI, and that's no gross exaggeration by any metric. Went on to claim he's like displaying <<<<50% of power pertaining physical abilities.

      Quality matters, whatsoever the limited features on a 700+ page serialization product.

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    • Itachi's speed is NTCM Naruto levels generally. He is able to evade B quite easily and also evade B's Samehada swipes and 8 Swords Dance quite easily with his bodily movements. They go out of their way to show Itachi as a Blur moving away from them while NTCM Naruto and B are still mid swing of their attacks. NTCM Naruto can go faster so him being in that was just to show Itachi's speed is underestimated here. His bodily speed is above Killer B and about NTCM Naruto and Sage Mode Kabuto level.

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    • ^^ Agreed on all fronts.

      The exaggerated excuses the fandom exudes to undermine the aforementioned high grade speed features, and the hype exemplifying that, seamlessly is beyond salt.

      The SM Kabuto 'not recalling the Otsutsuki horn' excuse, is a terrible fanfic excuse as well. It's explicitly signified that the Sage wasn't privy to the blitz by an exclamation qualifier regardless of whether he did possess a horn or what not.

      Lol, and btw I thought you disliked Itachi? What exactly transpired to alter that opinion of your's? X'D

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    • I still dislike people who blow Itachi way out of proportion like "Itachi can beat Kaguya no sweat" But even I know Itachi is underestimated here

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    • KyfieLita68 wrote:

      The SM Kabuto 'not recalling the Otsutsuki horn' excuse, is a terrible fanfic excuse as well. It's explicitly signified that the Sage wasn't privy to the blitz by an exclamation qualifier regardless of whether he did possess a horn or what not.

      You do realize that actually happened in the manga? Meaning it's not fan-fiction. Also, didn't Sage Kabuto deactivate his eyes? Quite impressive that Kabuto can dodge effectively even when sensors in general need to see an attack to counter it properly.

      There was a user called @Combat a while back that brought up the point of characters not using their top speeds all the time. Something to think about.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Itachi's speed is NTCM Naruto levels generally.

      No it's not. He's fast but not that fast

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    • Then how fast would you say he is? this should be fun.

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    • Best estimate puts him in between MS Sasuke and the 4th Raikage. So faster than MS Sasuke but slower than 4th Raikage

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    • FlatZone wrote: I still dislike people who blow Itachi way out of proportion like "Itachi can beat Kaguya no sweat" But even I know Itachi is underestimated here

      LOL, I swear there was this one guy that thought that Itachi beats 8 Gates Guy. My favorite character is Itachi, but that is like saying genin Sasuke beats SPSM Naruto.

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    • I misread the comment. My bad. But yeah Itachi is definitely above Killer B and Pre-Rinnegan Sasuke in speed.

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    • I never said you said anything. I was agreeing with you and giving my own experience with an Itachitard. Calm down.

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    • Squinty97 wrote: Best estimate puts him in between MS Sasuke and the 4th Raikage. So faster than MS Sasuke but slower than 4th Raikage

      Would Kakashi also be in this range?

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    • @Ninja I'd say so, but slower. Like closer to MS Sasuke than the 4th Raikage

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    • @Squinty

      Interesting. I'd put Itachi exactly in the middle of your range. For comparison, Obito and Madara would both be between Itachi and the 4th Raikage.

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    • Obito is featless in travel speed.

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    • Same for Itachi.

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    • Itachi has 4 at best, including those done in genjutsu. Obito has zero notable ones

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    • @Jason

      Including those done in genjutsu? What? You do realize genjutsu is not reality right?

      I think you're confusing combat speed with travel speed.

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    • I'm just saying what he's showed doing in those genjutsu, he's totally capable of doing in reality. Those genjutsu being the ones used on Deidara and Sasuke at the Uchiha hideout. Genjutsu's where the environment remains the same is used for the sole purpose of tricking the opponent that no genjutsu is even active so that means the caster wouldn't do anything that would defeat that purpose.

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    • @Jason

      Ok,

      But how does that reveal anything about combat speed, since it's not really combat. It's mental "combat". Itachi was caught (by choice) in the genjutsu he used on Deidara. And both Sasuke and Itachi at the Uchiha hideout used genjutsu on each other.

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    • There is no absurdity present in the contents of the genjutsu used, hence Itachi is portraying in genjutsu, what he's capable of/and can do, the same for Sasuke. Indeed it's happening in the mental realm, but they're still mimicking reality. He not only displayed combat speed feat, but also travel, such as when he got up from the chair and appeared next to Sasuke, if such speed was absurd then using it would be pointless, because it'd just be telling Sasuke that he's under genjutsu. Then he went on to blitz Sasuke in tsukuyomi.. Chapter 636 is also similar.

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    • They aren't getting the point man.

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    • @Jason

      I get that the genjutsu is close to reality. Yet, it does not mean it is a physical combat speed feat. I guess there could be an implication of assumed speed from the target, but again it's all controlled by the caster and thus fake. I don't see how fake reality substitutes for real feats.

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    • To be fair, Genjutsu is basically someone creating a dream for you. And people don't really know something is weird about their dream until they wake up. It doesn't make sense to me to include feats from Genjutsu as feats they have physically

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    • Fair enough, it didn't happen in reality. But it is just feats that happened in the illusion realm that just didn't get the chance to happen in reality. Basically he's capable of doing it, but just didn't get the chance to do it in reality. I know it's not a physical feat but aside from that we can gauge his speed capable of successfully blitzing a skilled 3 tomoe sharingan user...note 2 of the things that happened in that pic were shown already in reality, those being the power of Itachi's kick (on kurenai) and the crows from a dispersed or defeated crow clone, why would he lie about the speed?

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    • Like I said, there may be some implication of speed, but no actual feat. I don't think we can gauge speed like that, since Itachi can alter things to favor him, especially with the use of Tsukuyomi.

      The kick on kurenai and crow clone, remain feats of their own before this instance.

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    • Well Itachi blitzed the 3 Uchiha police officers making him faster than portrayed in genjutsu, so there goes your argument. I foresee you not accepting this also

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Well Itachi blitzed the 3 Uchiha police officers making him faster than portrayed in genjutsu, so there goes your argument. I foresee you not accepting this also

      It's not about me accepting it. It's about what constitutes a feat. Foresee? Seems like you conveniently forgot...

      Ninja Of War wrote: @Jason

      Itachi attacked them off screen, so saying he blitzed them is your interpretation only.

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    • Oh yeah that, I had told you to check the anime on this, what was your reply again?

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    • Itachi being faster than Sasuke is a feat in itself, I guage his speed around that of the raikage

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    • Itachi is fast enough to go CQC evenly with Sage Transformation Sage Mode Kabuto and was only hit with surprise attacks. He is also fast enough that B not only could not catch him but also could not land a single strike on him, with Samehada or with his 8 Sword Dance. Itachi's speed is above Sasuke's Pre-Six Paths chakra that much is clear.

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    • Please stop spitting facts

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    • We also need to remember that even the "perfected" Edo Tensei used in the 4th War couldn't bring out the actual full power of the ones revived. As Edo Rinnegan, Wood Release Madara was losing to Edo Sage Mode Hashirama and could not break out of the God Gates, yet the moment he came back to life(also lost his Rinnegan, which are supposed to grant more power) he instantly broke out of the God Gates and overwhelmed Hashirama showing that even when coming back to life and losing his eyes in the process a living Shinobi outclasses their Edo form in every single aspect inlcuding speed, except for health/bodily regen and chakra regen speed. So a living, full eyesight, Healthy Itachi would be an entirely different level altogether than Edo Itachi and Kabuto would not have landed those surprise attacks nor lasted as long as he did.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Oh yeah that, I had told you to check the anime on this, what was your reply again?

      Well, my reply was based on the manga.

      "A typical manga movement line that leads to an off-screen instance doesn't indicate relative speeds."

      @Kuzan

      How do you get Itachi on the raikage level from one instance against hebi Sasuke?

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou
      Jason of the Mangekyou removed this reply because:
      ;-;
      04:42, March 3, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • Speed lines (which was used) gives the impression of speed, the speed lines were followed by a panel of symbols indicating 3 hits (confirmed by the anime), which is what a blitz is all about. 3 opponents, + speed + 3 hits, + 3 opponents down. Even though you won't accept it, he still easily took down 3 opponents with precog whilst holding back and as seen in the Naruto vs Sasuke battle in part 1, Sasuke's 3 tomoe sharingan could predict the movements of kyubbi Naruto, the uchiha's getting oneshotted means that Itachi had to simply be moving faster than that Naruto. Feat.


      Also Itachi had 13 wins against Shisui when they were sparring, Shisui is renowned for his speed ,that is also a speed feat in itself ,but no proceed to downplay.

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    • @Jason

      A typical speed-line was indicated for Naruto back in the chunin exams against Neji. Are you gonna be consistent and tell me that Naruto back then was faster than Neji?

      The problem with your breakdown, speed-line aside, is the off-screen element. We don't know exactly what happened, because it wasn't shown. A number of things could have happened, anything from Itachi dodging, to feints or even pulling a kunai. (Btw, didn't Itachi have a kunai in hand after the skirmish?)

      Because it isn't directly attributed to any one action we can't say it is a feat. Although there may be some implication. And we definitely can't say that it proves a genjutsu instance.

      Speed feat from a filler now? Lol, Downplay? I'm stating the obvious here.

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      • Source for that speed line in neji vs naruto
      • Speed line next panel
      • Obito about to be attacked Speed line, Minato solo's they didn't show Minato getting to the opponent, but post speedline we have a defeated clone. Speed line, panel signifying hits , defeated opponents.
      • It doesn't have to be directly related, don't you have common sense? Again if kid sasuke can see and dodge kyubbi Naruto, and Adult Uchiha's can't dodgw itachi, then Itachi is faster than kyubbi Naruto. Common power-scaling.
      • It's from the novel, which is canon.
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    • Ch100 and Ch104, for Naruto vs Neji. My source doesn't have page numbers. Do you agree now that speed-lines are inconsistent?

      Why doesn't it have to be directly related? I thought the whole point of this thread was to use proper feats from directly related instances, otherwise no point to bother calling it feats.

      Novels are not canon bud. For obvious reasons.

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      • How is that the same as what we're arguing about? speed line as in the bottom left panel is what we're talking about here. The same was in the panel with Itachi. The two other examples i posted with Minato vs clone and Obito vs kcm minato all included blitzes, why would Itachi's be different.
      • Fair enough, with that gauging of his speed it'll remain (impossibly)potential feats.
      • It falls under a tier of canon and doesn't contradict the manga, in fact there is a manga statement that supports the novel.
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    • The manga itself and the Itachi novels never contradicted each other, only the anime adaptation had stuff to contradict the Itachi novels. You just can't use stuff from the novels that contradict things in the manga, so in that regard Itachi's novel feats aren't contradicted at all.

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    • @Jason

      I'm confused now, since we were comparing speed-lines I don't understand how the speed-lines I presented would be different from the ones you presented. Glad we can understand each other and agree on something at least. Kishimoto didn't author the novels tho, so I'd put them in the same category as filler/movies.

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    • See the difference between the two, the ones you presented simply shows motion of however simple or not the three pics i presented all includes blitzes...... That's because Kishimoto isn't an author [1] and some random novelist can't write his own story on anothers work, he'd be faced with copyright charges lmao.

      • This is the Official Novel Timeline from Shounen Jump.[2]
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    • You don't consider Naruto's attack on Neji a blitz? Kishimoto isn't an author now? Yikes, I don't think we are having a productive discussion anymore.

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    • I've proved what you brought up with Naruto and Neji as irrelevant to what we're discussing so why be the *** here and prolong this? regarding the rest i've proved the novel as canon. It's not productive because someone doesn't like to lose. points at you...and Kishimoto is a manga artist

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    • Well, I've proven that an instance where Naruto blitzed Neji is similar to the blitz you brought up, yet you disregard/ignore that as irrelevant. I've proven that obviously a genjutsu instance is not a physical feat. You've proved my point that Kishi didn't author the novels, so thanks. And btw, being a manga artist is not mutually exclusive to being an author. So I don't know why you have to go off-topic here.

      The only person concerned about winning and losing here is you pal. Peace out.

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      • Except as i've said before the speed lines are different from those shown in the pages i've presented with Itachi, Minato and Obito. You're not showing how they're similiar. You won't because you don't like to lose.
      • Keep ignoring evidence and going off topic instead of addressing the fact that the novel is canon as proven, you won't do this because it doesn't help your argument and will make you lOsE which is something you don't like. PeACE out pal
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    • Again, I asked how, and you said the speed-lines you presented showed a blitz. To which I asked "you don't consider Naruto's attack on Neji a blitz?" Which you disregarded/ignored conveniently, even now. Your evidence proves my point, so I don't see how me acknowledging it is me ignoring it and I'm not the one bringing up off-topic points lol.

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    • I do not know which speed line you're referring to as you provided nothing for me to work with, but I did check all the pages of that fight and there is not a single panel that has ONLY speed lines like the ones in 3 pics I submitted, hence it's why i'm saying it's irrelevant.

      How exactly does it prove your point? you're saying the novels are not canon, the pic from Shonen Jump contradicts your statement and not proves your point.

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    • Again you are not answering my question, "you don't consider Naruto's attack on Neji a blitz?", if after the third time you don't/can't respond, no point in continuing.

      How? You linked a page that proves someone other than Kishimoto authored the novels, that definitively proves my point of Kishimoto not authoring the novels lol.

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    • Do you even read my comments? prove it's relevance then i'll reply or save yourself the time and read my comments and let's move on.

      The same wiki canon policy which you cited in earlier comments on this same thread has that the novels are canon, explain why shounen jump would create the timeline of Naruto as a whole whilch includes the Itachi novels written by some random novelist who illegally wrote the itachi novels sold it and kept all the money to himself without facing any copyright charges.

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    • If you don't/can't answer my multiple-repeated question, then we aren't having a discussion because you are not addressing my points. I will assume the reasoning to be the latter. Please read the canon policy properly as well. So, this is now pointless. Please remember:

      Ninja Of War wrote: Well, I've proven that an instance where Naruto blitzed Neji is similar to the blitz you brought up, yet you disregard/ignore that as irrelevant. I've proven that obviously a genjutsu instance is not a physical feat. You've proved my point that Kishi didn't author the novels, so thanks. And btw, being a manga artist is not mutually exclusive to being an author. So I don't know why you have to go off-topic here.

      The only person concerned about winning and losing here is you pal. Peace out.

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    • I think you're intentionally being difficult......mah comment wasn't read for the millionth time

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou
      Jason of the Mangekyou removed this reply because:
      10100100101
      00:31, March 9, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • FlatZone wrote:

      Again Itachi saw nothing but a blurry spec and that would be Sasuke, Itachi then sees the sky get brighter.

      Where are you getting this that Itachi saw nothing but a blurry spec? The manga only shows one instance that I can see from Itachi's point of view of Itachi having double vision. He grabs his head and it soon clears up and he can see Sasuke just fine. Point out the chapter you're talking about where he can only see a blurry spec.

      Itachi even states after Sasuke says Kirin will be his last jutsu that he can see that he's out of chakra. If he can see, that Sasuke is low on chakra, then he can see the Chidori chakra around Sasuke's hand as it drops to cast the jutsu. It would be like you seeing a silhouette in the dark holding a flashlight. All Itachi is reacting to is Sasuke's movements, the same way all Susanoo users react to their opponents. Nothing special about that.

      That said, Itachi is pretty fast. I would put him midway between the 4th Raikage and MS Sasuke, like others on this page. Basically, he's a little bit faster than Kakashi.

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    • Incorrect. I have the chapter and the episodes downloaded. When Sasuke jumps back and then runs and jumps up onto the stone structure Itachi can't see him, but only a blury spec of him and can only hear him and see the glow of the chakra from the chidori in his hand(Itachi comments saying Sasuke has barely any chakra left) so there was just enough for that Chidori. I already explained this, now you're just ignoring it.

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    • @CyberianGinseng

      Would you place Kakashi above MS Sasuke in terms of speed?

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    • FlatZone wrote: Incorrect. I have the chapter and the episodes downloaded. When Sasuke jumps back and then runs and jumps up onto the stone structure Itachi can't see him, but only a blury spec of him and can only hear him and see the glow of the chakra from the chidori in his hand(Itachi comments saying Sasuke has barely any chakra left) so there was just enough for that Chidori. I already explained this, now you're just ignoring it.

      I'm not ignoring anything or I would've ignored your entire post. I don't see what you're talking about. I looked at the chapter in question and it's not showing anything from Itachi's perspective. I'm not looking at the anime at all. The anime adds things even to episodes that deal directly with a manga chapter. I'm looking at chapter 391 on Kissmanga right this moment. There is absolutely no panel that shows Itachi's perspective before, after, or during the moment Sasuke jumps out of the hole and on top of the stone to take control of the lightning. What panel in which chapter are you talking about?

      Ninja Of War wrote: @CyberianGinseng

      Would you place Kakashi above MS Sasuke in terms of speed?

      Yes.

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    • https://1.bp.blogspot.com/--a5YbMfgBis/XeZSrF268wI/AAAAAAAAKhw/tyDHBib6DkgAe2qYDr47qt91VJMoiWGcgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/021.webp

      https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9LLc3aQ3JiE/XeZSrlb4TrI/AAAAAAAAKh4/FkOZPzGpmmcQZnOT3LERd3aX4DkO7cKhgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/022.webp

      https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Pgo6kBc5clg/XeZSrh-2ArI/AAAAAAAAKh0/6jZyDalxJ5AWoimMyF51kxOCoz5rlBx5QCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/023.webp

      https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AvdBRKiJ22I/XeZTMYd5oeI/AAAAAAAAKis/R6DC-3DcE1MO1KwQ5KZEkPLA0WYLrGzcACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/002.webp

      https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Uzd0MJ2bnWA/XeZTNFWP36I/AAAAAAAAKiw/Fugzc47L_y4Rw87kH90uCFXd9Vhz9xaCACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/005.webp

      https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9YRHo3M3Ffs/XeZTN3p4IEI/AAAAAAAAKi4/A5e4yU4bkHUyUrkvwRqMrjtBtzXAOBdeQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/007.webp

      The distance as shown earlier in the fight was Sasuke was a blur even 15 feet away from Itachi.. at the BEGINNING of the fight. In the panels you can see in this later chapter the distance between Itachi and Sasuke as Sasuke is on that pillar is greater. Also in the panels you can see the brightness and size of Kirin before it is even made into shape, Itachi only ever reacted to the brightness. I was also wrong before, Itachi can't even see Sasuke's last bit of chakra which means Itachi's eyes are much closer to blindness than I thought they were, he can only see EXTREME changes in lighting and of course still hear. All in all, as I said before.. Itachi was able to react within 1/1000th of a second despite the fact he is so near blind that even with his Sharingan, he cannot even see chakra anymore(he thought he could and turned out wrong) and only the extreme change in light was able to be noticed. Itachi was able to get Susanoo up so fast between the launch and the strike(1/1000th of a second) that he was able to survive Kirin.. despite being blind and near death. HOW... HOW is this hard to see???

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    • FlatZone wrote: The distance as shown earlier in the fight was Sasuke was a blur even 15 feet away from Itachi.. at the BEGINNING of the fight. In the panels you can see in this later chapter the distance between Itachi and Sasuke as Sasuke is on that pillar is greater. Also in the panels you can see the brightness and size of Kirin before it is even made into shape, Itachi only ever reacted to the brightness. I was also wrong before, Itachi can't even see Sasuke's last bit of chakra which means Itachi's eyes are much closer to blindness than I thought they were, he can only see EXTREME changes in lighting and of course still hear. All in all, as I said before.. Itachi was able to react within 1/1000th of a second despite the fact he is so near blind that even with his Sharingan, he cannot even see chakra anymore(he thought he could and turned out wrong) and only the extreme change in light was able to be noticed. Itachi was able to get Susanoo up so fast between the launch and the strike(1/1000th of a second) that he was able to survive Kirin.. despite being blind and near death. HOW... HOW is this hard to see???

      I thought you had a POV shot from Itachi. NONE OF THOSE have any POV panels in them. We can't see what Itachi is seeing we can only see what the reader's POV is, not Itachi's. The last POV shot was the Itachi's double vision shot. We see Itachi getting double vision and clutching his head and the double vision settled down. That's what I mean by Point of View shot. The panels here have nothing like that so we don't know what the hell Itachi is seeing.

      What you're doing is trying to extrapolate from the POV shot at the beginning of the fight: https://imgur.com/JJc8DVG And you're claiming if that's how Sasuke looked standing so close then things must have been worse standing far away. However, the sharingan is a magic tool. We know its powers of tracking everything was still functioning throughout the fight. Not at 100%, but close enough for ninja work, because otherwise Itachi would've gotten hit by more of those 100s of Shuriken that Sasuke threw at him, instead of just that last broken sword trick.

      We also know that his eyes are fluctuating, due to the other POV shots shown from Itachi's perspective: https://i.imgur.com/tTCLpxZ.png

      https://i.imgur.com/ZTfq3k1.png (If you can't see the images let me know. I'm not used to Imgur.) It gets worse then it get's better then it gets worse, etc.

      We also know that the main thing Itachi could clearly see was chakra. He said so. So if Sharingan tracking is still working and Itachi can see Sasuke's chakra shining in the dark it goes without saying that his Sharingan is automatically tracking Sasuke's chakra. It doesn't matter how far he is away. A magical chakra seeking tracking tool will no doubt keep track of Sasuke's chakra effortlessly.

      Unless you can prove his Sharingan's tracking ability completely failed, you can't prove your case.

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    • I just explained to you, he said with his Sharingan he could see that Sasuke was out of chakra, Sasuke was indeed NOT out of chakra and Itachi couldn't tell otherwise. Sasuke had enough to initiate Kirin. Itachi's eyesight by that moment was bad enough that he couldn't even see Sasuke or Sasuke's chakra from that distance. In fact just activating Susanoo completely blinded Itachi.

      https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-L9IfWopO_AU/XeZTPu9MlgI/AAAAAAAAKjc/mp-cmQ9ubRMHXPLQ55byspWWcC1cDsx2ACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/016.webp

      Itachi COULD NOT see Sasuke let alone his chakra due to how bad his eyesight was, he THOUGHT he could but he ended up wrong. Itachi could only notice the extreme brightness change in lighting. Again at this point his eyesight was so bad that just activating Susanoo blinded him fully. Itachi reacted to Kirin within 1/1000th of a second(launch to strike) that's a legitimate feat whether anybody likes it or not.

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    • Beyond the miniscule chakra he had left for Kirin, he literally had no more usable chakra left. So Itachi was right, Sasuke had no chakra left. It's not hard to see he was generalizing how much chakra Sasuke had left.

      If i say you have no chakra left, I'm obviously generalizing because without any chakra, you'd be dead. It can easily be interpreted as your chakra is extremely low or that you have no more chakra that can be used for techniques.

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    • FlatZone wrote: I just explained to you, he said with his Sharingan he could see that Sasuke was out of chakra, Sasuke was indeed NOT out of chakra and Itachi couldn't tell otherwise. Sasuke had enough to initiate Kirin. Itachi's eyesight by that moment was bad enough that he couldn't even see Sasuke or Sasuke's chakra from that distance. In fact just activating Susanoo completely blinded Itachi.

      https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-L9IfWopO_AU/XeZTPu9MlgI/AAAAAAAAKjc/mp-cmQ9ubRMHXPLQ55byspWWcC1cDsx2ACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/016.webp

      Itachi COULD NOT see Sasuke let alone his chakra due to how bad his eyesight was, he THOUGHT he could but he ended up wrong. Itachi could only notice the extreme brightness change in lighting. Again at this point his eyesight was so bad that just activating Susanoo blinded him fully. Itachi reacted to Kirin within 1/1000th of a second(launch to strike) that's a legitimate feat whether anybody likes it or not.

      Are you kidding me? They always say something like, "you're/I'm out of chakra" when they mean somebody's extremely low on chakra: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-jk_SELE29M0/WCWFq8sTesI/AAAAAAACmEU/bk-Y4JkIZmoadIgVYaujbI69i5GZhFs7gCHM/s16000/0360-021.png

      After Itachi says "I can see you're out of chakra" Sasuke himself "Yeah, I don't have any chakra left... I used it up on that fire style jutsu." https://imgur.com/8HrzyHM So by your logic, Sasuke is confused about how much chakra he has left too? He's so damn confused about his own chakra that he actually agrees with the, by your estimation, clueless blind ass Itachi that he has no chakra? No. He's simply doing what people have done before, say he's out of chakra whenever he's too low on chakra.

      You can literally use chakra up until the point where you pass out or even drop dead from lack of vitality. If you have stamina, you have chakra. If your stamina and chakra both reach 0%, you're dead: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-DlL-wKN14WY/WCVuvWi8IKI/AAAAAAACY1c/Lmahim-IHBw3UCD1clpwO72--WmzFX7dACHM/s16000/0090-004.png

      http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Nhn-DxXPbRg/WCVuvolD6GI/AAAAAAACY1g/8tRCocPh8ScDrgiWx44J3BdwpSX-uarDgCHM/s16000/0090-005.png Was Sasuke unconscious or dead? No. Then he had some chakra left in his body and Itachi had to be aware of that.

      The fact is Itachi's whole plan was to force Sasuke to use up enough of his chakra to spend the chakra he was suppressing Orochimaru with, in order to get Orochimaru to emerge so he could get rid of him for Sasuke's sake. There's no way he'd not notice that Orochimaru still hasn't emerged and believe that Sasuke was out of chakra, when that's exactly what he was waiting for: https://i.imgur.com/VPbQvlz.png https://imgur.com/UFi0Uo9 https://imgur.com/4hhfSkn https://i.imgur.com/RrEfGGE.jpg https://i.imgur.com/dbhdX8w.jpg https://i.imgur.com/CeFwE9c.jpg How the hell would he miss that Orochimaru wasn't standing there and still believe Sasuke was totally out of chakra? That doesn't make any sense. The fact is he absolutely had to know that Sasuke still had enough chakra to contain Orochimaru, until the moment Oro showed his face. That's a fact, so your argument that he was confused because he couldn't see straight doesn't even make sense.

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    • I didn't say he was confused. The point still stands, Itachi was nearly blind and he couldn't see Sasuke but only the extreme light change. You have yet to actually disprove that at all. Itachi was so near blind that using Susanoo ONCE completely blinded him. You have nothing, concede and move on. Respond as many times about it as you want, you will continue to fail to disprove it and I will continue to repeat what I've been saying. Itachi's feat is legitimate, you don't like that?? That's a shame.

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    • FlatZone wrote: I didn't say he was confused. The point still stands, Itachi was nearly blind and he couldn't see Sasuke but only the extreme light change. You have yet to actually disprove that at all. Itachi was so near blind that using Susanoo ONCE completely blinded him. You have nothing, concede and move on. Respond as many times about it as you want, you will continue to fail to disprove it and I will continue to repeat what I've been saying. Itachi's feat is legitimate, you don't like that?? That's a shame.

      LMAO! You know you've lost the argument when you shout, "I win! I win! No matter what you say, or how much I lose, I win!"

      I destroyed every single point you put forth. And now you're butt hurt about it. You have absolutely no answer for why Sasuke would agree with Itachi that he was indeed out of chakra.

      I guess Itachi was so damn blind that his brother caught the seeing eye dog ricochet. Itachi Snake-Eye Uchiha: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=538H6EYp_ZU

      Somebody get this dude some icy hot for his throbbing butt cheeks. lmao!

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    • You didn't prove anything little bud, go move along and cry now nobody wants to see you crying here hahaha

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    • FlatZone wrote: You didn't prove anything little bud, go move along and cry now nobody wants to see you crying here hahaha

      Poor baby. A shot of morphine in that booty should stop the aching.

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    • and a needle in your pocked arm veins will help your withdrawals and insanity, your addiction is showing kiddy.

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    • Both of you stop.

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    • Lol, well, isn't this some deja vu. Remember users, when your logic is used against you, don't double down. It's ok to admit you are wrong and move on. Learn to not do:

      Exhibit A:

      FlatZone wrote: I just explained to you, he said with his Sharingan he could see that Sasuke was out of chakra, Sasuke was indeed NOT out of chakra and Itachi couldn't tell otherwise.

      The correct response:

      CyberianGinseng wrote:

      After Itachi says "I can see you're out of chakra" Sasuke himself "Yeah, I don't have any chakra left... I used it up on that fire style jutsu." https://imgur.com/8HrzyHM So by your logic, Sasuke is confused about how much chakra he has left too?

      And exhibit B:

      FlatZone wrote: I didn't say he was confused. The point still stands, Itachi was nearly blind and he couldn't see Sasuke but only the extreme light change. You have yet to actually disprove that at all.

      Just wanna point out to those that still think that Itachi reacted to lightning, context matters here. The context being Sasuke's dialogue cues describing Kirin, namely "Technique like amaterasu that can't be dodged" and "lightning from the heavens". Sasuke shooting chidori into the sky, the Kirin-dragon forming. The final dialogue cue "Begone with the thunderclap". And Sasuke's hand motion. All of that gives context to this instance and definitely shows more than pure reaction.

      The most comprehensive explanation I've seen of this instance is the "shooter pointing the gun example".

      The "shooter pointing a gun" example illustrates how one can be faster/countering than the "shooter" but not faster than the bullet. If the shooter tells you he's gonna shoot you in 2 seconds, and your action to put up a shield is 1 second, you have to time your action to coincide with the timing of the shooter. Doing that successfully doesn't make you faster than a speeding bullet.

      Similar with this instance, Itachi has all the cues he needed and the ability to shield himself by timing the action. Timing of the action is impressive in an of itself, but not possible without the prediction.

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    • Again, Itachi reacted to the lightning, Itachi didn't time anything, it's fucking lighting lol. So you literally have no argument here. In 1/1000th of a second Itachi while near blind and near dead was able to get Susanoo up and survive Kirin. You keep arguing for what?? nothing. Find something of substance to argue with(which you haven't done yet) and come back, or just move along and stop arguing just to argue.

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      • sigh*... Whatever happened to civil discussions? Next thing we know someone's going to say that Hashirama with the ten tails could be beaten by boruto and there's going to be a civil war...

      Squinty97 wrote: Both of you stop.

      Please do.

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    • Civil discussions with certain users on this wikia are almost impossible, because they can't stand being wrong and thing simply saying things makes those things correct and themm right. It's never ending with these people.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Again, Itachi reacted to the lightning, Itachi didn't time anything, it's fucking lighting lol. So you literally have no argument here. In 1/1000th of a second Itachi while near blind and near dead was able to get Susanoo up and survive Kirin. You keep arguing for what?? nothing. Find something of substance to argue with(which you haven't done yet) and come back, or just move along and stop arguing just to argue.

      Lol, I'm actually addressing you for once.

      Anyways, @FlatZone, your entire argument rested on "Itachi being confused" about Sasuke's chakra reserves. @CyberianGinseng, already showed Sasuke himself saying the same thing as Itachi. Confirming Itachi wasn't confused. So you can't prove your claim that Itachi can't see chakra or that he was completely blind. So that argument of yours remains opinion. Which is fine, just don't claim it as fact.

      As for my post, yeah context matters. Kirin is a technique, and that technique was literally explained and set-up in front of Itachi. There was extensive information beforehand, set-up of the jutsu-kirin-dragon, hand motion from Sasuke and final dialogue "begone with the thunderclap". Saying Itachi can't predict that, goes against Itachi's character, the very nature of the Sharingan and the sense of hearing.

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    • You still aren't comprehending, and this will be the 20 billionth time explaining it. Itachi by that point was nearly completely blind, in fact ONE Susanoo usage made him completely blind, he was near death. He still reacted to a LIGHTNING STRIKE, which is 1/1000th of a second from launch to strike. No matter how you try to spin it, no matter what you try to twist it as. It is a legitimate feat, as Itachi was able to get Susanoo up to defend himself, in fact when the strike was about to happen Itachi was looking up at the sky and not at the tiny blur which is Sasuke. A nearly blind, and near death Itachi's reaction speed here is comparable to 1/1000th of a second and if it was not he would have died right there.

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    • FlatZone wrote: You still aren't comprehending, and this will be the 20 billionth time explaining it. Itachi by that point was nearly completely blind, in fact ONE Susanoo usage made him completely blind, he was near death.

      You haven't proven that claim. Itachi is confirmed to still see chakra at this point also. Furthermore, Sasuke and the Kirin-dragon are in the same direction, relative to Itachi, so how can't Itachi see? It wasn't pure reaction, there was prediction involved. If there was no prediction involved I would agree with you.

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    • Prediction does not equate to perfect timing nor perfect reaction speed, and predictions are guesses to begin with. So even with your speculation, it is still a legitimate feat. Itachi has the feat and you arguing it or not liking it doesn't change it. Why are you taking this personal? why are you even still arguing over this??

      Btw this is Itachi immediately after using Susanoo to block the Kirin strike https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-L9IfWopO_AU/XeZTPu9MlgI/AAAAAAAAKjc/mp-cmQ9ubRMHXPLQ55byspWWcC1cDsx2ACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/016.webp

      this is after every MS tech he used beforehand, all it took was ONE Susanoo usage to make him completely blind. That is proof on its own considering at the beginning of the fight Sasuke was a blur when we are shown Itachi's POV.

      https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-rkwXFZ5-Lic/XeZQOWI580I/AAAAAAAAKao/vfD6GFEepKAr9BM7bTiaeC_SxCCUeuuqwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/002.webp

      https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_5KvIpMitlE/XeZQOfs6A3I/AAAAAAAAKas/i-4PcZkipjsH8sm8399RWv84zN1Q5I8YwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/003.webp as you can see here, from like 6 feet away Sasuke looks like that.. before Itachi even used any MS techs.

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    • Knowing that the attack is coming still doesn't help Itachi react to it, he didn't even have up susanoo as yet. So itachi waited after the gun fires then he react.

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    • Check the edit I did on my last comment

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    • FlatZone wrote: Prediction does not equate to perfect timing nor perfect reaction speed, and predictions are guesses to begin with. So even with your speculation, it is still a legitimate feat. Itachi has the feat and you arguing it or not liking it doesn't change it. Why are you taking this personal? why are you even still arguing over this??

      The Sharingan was made for perfect timing and prediction tho. Lol, I'm not taking any of this personal. Look, we have clear prediction cues here, it's not right to say they don't mean anything.

      @Jason

      Knowing that it's an attack you can't dodge does. Actually we don't see Susanoo activate, so we can't say exactly when Susanoo was up.

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    • Dodging has nothing to do with anything here. Susanoo was active after kirin was launched obviously which is what makes it a reaction feat, cuz there is still the part where he had to react, which Sasuke doesn't contribute to.. Itachi had other parts of the battle to complete (sealing orochimaru) he wasn't going to gamble his life at this point. If he knew he could'nt react to lighting he would've had up susanoo from the moment sasuke started explaining.

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    • @Jason, yeah it's clear from my last comment, Itachi's eyesight was on the verge of blindness, there is no way he saw Sasuke's arm let alone Sasuke at the presented distance.

      https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Uzd0MJ2bnWA/XeZTNFWP36I/AAAAAAAAKiw/Fugzc47L_y4Rw87kH90uCFXd9Vhz9xaCACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/005.webp

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    • That's true as his eyesight should've deteriorated even further. And later on his only focus was on kirin and not Sasuke.

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    • @FlatZone

      I acknowledge the deterioration of Itachi's eyes, yet he is still confirmed to see chakra at the moment of Kirin. Also, as @Cyberian said earlier, after the initial blurry vision, Itachi's eyes fluctuate from clear to blurry after Tsukuyomi use. Indicating still functional vision. And let's not forget, the entire fight Itachi still managed to more than keep track with Sasuke, Sasuke's jutsu and shuriken.

      @Jason

      If you know you can't dodge an attack, the next thought you must have is how to counter or block the incoming attack. Which in the case of Itachi is using Susanoo. Again, it's not shown when exactly Itachi used Susanoo. Unless you have proof stating otherwise? Would Sasuke still have used the attack if Susanoo was up beforehand?

      Note: I realize that me claiming plot, is probably the reason for Itachi's Susanoo usage.

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    • 2 other person there didn't see it, so it had to be whilst kirin was coming down which obscured their vision of it. Of course he would still use it, it was his trump card after all

      • Note: I realize that me claiming plot, is probably the reason for Itachi's Susanoo usage - what do you mean??
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    • His vision didn't clear up, I'm looking at the panels right now, he was covering one eye as that eyes vision was shaking up. There are even motion lines on Sasuke.

      https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ECMaa6ZkKY8/XeZSCoKqNwI/AAAAAAAAKfo/hX7U7g-DIeAQIWssw0nmt9m10_7fOIeHACLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/008.webp His left eyes vision is getting is trying to adjust and failing as there are motion lines on Sasuke

      https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-eESJ0gdHGMY/XeZSC4WFL6I/AAAAAAAAKfs/R6oSBtQ3IcQ1LxHwFl7EwFhmffIEKx91wCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/009.webp Itachi covers the left eye, his right eye also has deteriorating vision and is failing to adjust as there are motion lines on Sasuke again. This was just from the one Tsukuyomi. Again his eyesight will get much worse, by the time Kirin is used.. in fact all it takes is ONE Susanoo and he goes completely blind.. like I said multiple times before.

      Note: I realize that me claiming plot, is probably the reason for Itachi's Susanoo usage.

      Funny you use this when it's convenient to you.
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    • @Jason

      You mean Zetsu(s)? Did they say they didn't see Susanoo? I mean, the default reason why Susanoo was not shown during Kirin was plot, so I could claim that.

      @FlatZone

      I didn't say Itachi's vision cleared up. I said it fluctuates. I also said that Itachi still more than kept up with Sasuke and Sasuke's attacks after that. Furthermore, Itachi is confirmed to still see chakra at the point of Kirin. So while your evidence is good, it still doesn't negate Itachi actually still being able to see Sasuke's hand being lit-up by chidori.

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    • It wasn't Chidori, after looking at the Chidori from earlier panels. Look at the panels for Kirin and its prep again, it was just lightning chakra change which wouldn't require him to have enough chakra to use Chidori in fact the whole point of Kirin is he doesn't need but just a smidgen of chakra to use it in the first place. But the points from before remain, the actual Lightning wasn't made of chakra so Itachi would not be able to make it out when everything was so extremely bright. Only thing he could see at that point was the extreme change in lighting outside.

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    • After kirin landed and Itachi got up and used susanoo again zetsu question huh...what is that? indicating they didn't see it. So he used after the gun fired which is not aim dodging but reacting.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: After kirin landed and Itachi got up and used susanoo again zetsu question huh...what is that? indicating they didn't see it. So he used after the gun fired which is not aim dodging but reacting.

      So they asked what it was only? What does that prove?

      @FlatZone

      It actually doesn't matter if Sasuke used Chidori or just streamed lightning chakra. The point is Itachi is still confirmed to see chakra then. Again, you haven't proven Itachi can't see Sasuke. Was it perhaps Chidori stream?

      EDIT:

      FlatZone wrote: Funny you use this when it's convenient to you.

      I didn't use the argument of plot. Reading comprehension, use it. But, if I did I'd cite your usage in particular.

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    • Zetsu asked the same question when orochimaru's snake erupted for the first time. If they had said it's that thing again it would hinted that they did see susanoo, but no. But keep being cocksure.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Zetsu asked the same question when orochimaru's snake erupted for the first time. If they had said it's that thing again it would hinted that they did see susanoo, but no. But keep being cocksure.

      Why are you slinging insults? Again, I'm asking what does Zetsu's question about Susanoo prove? Not why they didn't ask a different question.

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    • It proves that that's the first time he saw it, and not before kirin or during kirin(where my blinded by the light point comes in), but after

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou
      Jason of the Mangekyou removed this reply because:
      ;-;
      21:11, April 9, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: It proves that that's the first time he saw it, and not before kirin or during kirin(where my blinded by the light point comes in), but after

      Ok, seems reasonable. But wait, blinded by the light? Then isn't that why Zetsu didn't see Susanoo?

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    • Uh yep. It did appear during kirin, he had to use susanoo then to block kirin if he didn't use it before.

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    • @Jason

      But then what is this bit about "not before kirin or during kirin, but after".

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    • That's me saying zetsu saw Susanoo after kirin.

      • He could'nt see it before because it wasn't used then
      • Could'nt see it during because of the light argument
      • But saw it after because........erm....
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    • @Jason

      Ok, so this point about Zetsu is moot then.

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    • It shows he activated susanoo at a point when no one could see which means kirin had to be really close to itachi when he activated it, all strengthen the point of him reacting to it as the cues didn't help in the end.

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    • @Jason

      I don't see how because in ch391 pg 8, the last panel with Itachi whites-out. Which is only after Sasuke's arm movement.

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    • That's after kirin was launched itachi had 1/1000 of a second at that point to use it. It was used then.

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    • Calling it Chidori or not is irrelevant. That's just a one word name that everyone will immediately recognize and know what we're talking about, not an argument in an of itself. Nobody's going to say "the lightning change in chakra around Sasuke's hand!" when they can just say Chidori.

      When Susanoo actually appears says next to nothing about when Itachi started gathering chakra for Susanoo. These are mere details you keep arguing about, not facets of the argument that make a difference. Sasuke lowered his hand Itachi started reacting then and finished reacting when Susanoo appeared as the bolt hit.

      It's no different than any of the other top tier ninjas would do. It pales in comparison to Sasuke summoning that snake, genjutsuing him, and jumping in his mouth to be desummoned in the ass pull of the century. And we know Itachi was faster than Sasuke.

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    • CyberianGinseng wrote: Calling it Chidori or not is irrelevant. That's just a one word name that everyone will immediately recognize and know what we're talking about, not an argument in an of itself. Nobody's going to say "the lightning change in chakra around Sasuke's hand!" when they can just say Chidori.

      When Susanoo actually appears says next to nothing about when Itachi started gathering chakra for Susanoo. These are mere details you keep arguing about, not facets of the argument that make a difference. Sasuke lowered his hand Itachi started reacting then and finished reacting when Susanoo appeared as the bolt hit.

      It's no different than any of the other top tier ninjas would do. It pales in comparison to Sasuke summoning that snake, genjutsuing him, and jumping in his mouth to be desummoned in the ass pull of the century. And we know Itachi was faster than Sasuke.

      Itachi "gathering chakra for Susanoo" is purely speculation. As shown in the series later a user can manifest Susanoo at a whim such as with vs Kabuto and vs Danzo. Susanoo def requires chakra as it is made of chakra, but it seems to be directly linked to the users chakra system instead of just being something they need to initiate first then use which is why it would be a reaction feat because if Itachi did not turn it on then he would be dead there. Besides Sasuke threw his hand down and Itachi was already looking upwards towards the extreme light, and Susanoo manifesting shows lines in it such as in the panel I showed with Itachi being blind from one Susanoo use. There were no lines from the Susanoo to the right or slightly behind Itachi in the one panel where he is looking up when Kirin is launched.

      Oh and the whole point of Kirin was Sasuke had no chakra left for an actual jutsu which Itachi called him on it saying it was a bluff, as he has seen Sasuke using chidori and its variations multiple times already. Sasuke was not using any jutsu to initiate Kirin, he was using a small bit lightning natured chakra to initiate it.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Itachi "gathering chakra for Susanoo" is purely speculation. As shown in the series later a user can manifest Susanoo at a whim such as with vs Kabuto and vs Danzo. Susanoo def requires chakra as it is made of chakra, but it seems to be directly linked to the users chakra system instead of just being something they need to initiate first then use which is why it would be a reaction feat because if Itachi did not turn it on then he would be dead there. Besides Sasuke threw his hand down and Itachi was already looking upwards towards the extreme light, and Susanoo manifesting shows lines in it such as in the panel I showed with Itachi being blind from one Susanoo use. There were no lines from the Susanoo to the right or slightly behind Itachi in the one panel where he is looking up when Kirin is launched.

      Oh and the whole point of Kirin was Sasuke had no chakra left for an actual jutsu which Itachi called him on it saying it was a bluff, as he has seen Sasuke using chidori and its variations multiple times already. Sasuke was not using any jutsu to initiate Kirin, he was using a small bit lightning natured chakra to initiate it.

      The statement "it seems to be directly linked to the users chakra system instead of just being something they need to initiate first then use" is purely speculation. There has never been any other method of initiating any jutsu ever described (other than scientific ninja tools or possibly the Ootsutsuki tech in Boruto) that I can recall. We can't just speculate up another method when it's convenient. All jutsu is manifested as a whim by top tier Shinobi. Minato manifested FTG at a whim. We never claim it's because it was directly linked to his chakra system. Do you have any corroborating evidence for this direct link?

      I didn't say it wasn't a speed feat. It's just not as impressive as you claim.

      I know Sasuke had no chakra left for an actual jutsu. Hence, the whole "you're out of chakra" Itachi quote. That's not even what I'm talking about. The whole and sole reason I (speaking purely for myself) keep calling it Chidori is because I have no wish to keep saying "The lightning nature chakra around Sasuke's hand." I'm not claiming Sasuke was using chakra in a jutsu. I'm just using "Chidori" as a shorthand for what he was doing.

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    • CyberianGinseng wrote:

      FlatZone wrote: Itachi "gathering chakra for Susanoo" is purely speculation. As shown in the series later a user can manifest Susanoo at a whim such as with vs Kabuto and vs Danzo. Susanoo def requires chakra as it is made of chakra, but it seems to be directly linked to the users chakra system instead of just being something they need to initiate first then use which is why it would be a reaction feat because if Itachi did not turn it on then he would be dead there. Besides Sasuke threw his hand down and Itachi was already looking upwards towards the extreme light, and Susanoo manifesting shows lines in it such as in the panel I showed with Itachi being blind from one Susanoo use. There were no lines from the Susanoo to the right or slightly behind Itachi in the one panel where he is looking up when Kirin is launched.

      Oh and the whole point of Kirin was Sasuke had no chakra left for an actual jutsu which Itachi called him on it saying it was a bluff, as he has seen Sasuke using chidori and its variations multiple times already. Sasuke was not using any jutsu to initiate Kirin, he was using a small bit lightning natured chakra to initiate it.

      The statement "it seems to be directly linked to the users chakra system instead of just being something they need to initiate first then use" is purely speculation. There has never been any other method of initiating any jutsu ever described (other than scientific ninja tools or possibly the Ootsutsuki tech in Boruto) that I can recall. We can't just speculate up another method when it's convenient. All jutsu is manifested as a whim by top tier Shinobi. Minato manifested FTG at a whim. We never claim it's because it was directly linked to his chakra system. Do you have any corroborating evidence for this direct link?

      I didn't say it wasn't a speed feat. It's just not as impressive as you claim.

      I know Sasuke had no chakra left for an actual jutsu. Hence, the whole "you're out of chakra" Itachi quote. That's not even what I'm talking about. The whole and sole reason I (speaking purely for myself) keep calling it Chidori is because I have no wish to keep saying "The lightning nature chakra around Sasuke's hand." I'm not claiming Sasuke was using chakra in a jutsu. I'm just using "Chidori" as a shorthand for what he was doing.

      I'll just use lightning chakra, thats much more accurate. Also YOU think the feat isn't as impressive and me saying "I think" goes to show on that part it was speculation. You also just beat your own argument "All jutsu is manifested as a whim by top tier Shinobi. Minato manifested FTG at a whim. We never claim it's because it was directly linked to his chakra system. Do you have any corroborating evidence for this direct link?" Itachi can whip up Susanoo on a whim by that notion so no chakra build up was necessary.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: That's after kirin was launched itachi had 1/1000 of a second at that point to use it. It was used then.

      But the panel didn't white-out with Sasuke's hand movement, only after. So how can you say kirin was launched already? If we go by the panel white-out, Sasuke's hand movements preempt the launch of Kirin.

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    • Reacting to Lightning is not some God-Tier feat anyways, as Kakashi has done it too

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    • Ninja Of War wrote:

      Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: That's after kirin was launched itachi had 1/1000 of a second at that point to use it. It was used then.

      But the panel didn't white-out with Sasuke's hand movement, only after. So how can you say kirin was launched already? If we go by the panel white-out, Sasuke's hand movements preempt the launch of Kirin.

      The screen was still bright from Kirin before and after it was launched, Itachi was still looking straight up at the brightness. Sasuke's arm being swung down means nothing to Itachi here as the strike is still near instant

      @Squinty Kakashi wasn't near blind, and he wasn't near death(Zetsu had said earlier Itachi was off.. and that's clearly because of his eyesight and health) You two's attempts at downplaying this feat are getting very cringey. Just give it up already.

      https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qLTu7H5F3nk/XeZTNdZ78nI/AAAAAAAAKi0/nlDpAevzzJktiRkqAaKqvnkgnwJGl9JkgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/006.webp here he is looking at Sasuke(to be more precise the chakra in Sasuke's hand), notice the angle of his gaze

      https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9YRHo3M3Ffs/XeZTN3p4IEI/AAAAAAAAKi4/A5e4yU4bkHUyUrkvwRqMrjtBtzXAOBdeQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/007.webp Kirin is now present and it is super bright, Itachi is looking further up and at Kirin, not Sasuke.

      https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-yKxhIEOHvBM/XeZTOKGNQxI/AAAAAAAAKi8/u7xXEMmA-IUN8lSsOk7pRHDCLUwinWDHgCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/008.webp His gaze remains the same, up at Kirin and not at Sasuke. This shouldn't be hard to see for even you two

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    • @FlatZone

      I'm looking at your links and the only white-out that's shown is the one I mentioned, after Sasuke's hand movements. So, the hand movement is still visible, but I'm waiting for @Jason's response on this point.

      Don't know if you're addressing me with the later points, but the Kirin-dragon and Sasuke are in the same direction from Itachi's point of view on the second of your links. Also, the sky remains the same as in your first link, with the white-out only present at the end. This indicates Kirin activation only at that white-out panel.

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    • the second and third panels are where the sky is brighter and Itachi is looking up at the brighter sky, which is brighter because of the lightning that is there that will be Kirin. Again notice where Itachi's gaze is on the first page and then where it is on the second and third pages. He isn't even looking at Sasuke anymore in the second and third pages. Itachi was looking up at the sky, and everything whiting out just means that was when it was at is brightest and that was on the 3rd page where Itachi was STILL looking up at the sky.

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    • @FlatZone

      The shade of the sky on ch391 pg 6 and ch391 pg 7 is not significantly different. Furthermore, what is the significance of this point? If the sky, is a bit brighter due to the presence of the Kirin-dragon, that doesn't obscure vision.

      Sasuke is standing in a position that is higher (steeper), relative to Itachi. So Itachi has to look up to see Sasuke. If he only looks forward, he won't see Sasuke. The white-out is clearly after Sasuke's hand motion, not before or during. Indicating only activation then.

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    • Again you are ignoring the angle of Itachi's gaze and the sequence of events. Itachi was not looking at Sasuke on the last 2 pages I posted.

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    • @FlatZone

      Is Sasuke above Itachi? And is the angle steep? I'm not ignoring anything.

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    • Yes you are, and you know you are.

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    • @FlatZone

      Answer the question.

      Ninja Of War wrote: @FlatZone

      Is Sasuke above Itachi? And is the angle steep? I'm not ignoring anything.

      What am I apparently ignoring?

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    • Hs is above Itachi, in front of Itachi so of course the angle is steep. But you are ignoring Itachi's line of sight on the last 2 pages compared to the first page. When you stop pretending you don't know what that means it will make more sense to you. Do alittle work for yourself and go check the other panels I posted too and piece the clues together. It all adds up to what I've been trying to explain to you

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    • FlatZone wrote: @Squinty Kakashi wasn't near blind, and he wasn't near death(Zetsu had said earlier Itachi was off.. and that's clearly because of his eyesight and health) You two's attempts at downplaying this feat are getting very cringey. Just give it up already.

      Yes, but Itachi has already been noted to be above Kakashi even as his eyesight deteriorated and his sickness was prevalent. So that doesn't even matter, reacting to Lightning is not some huge feat.

      Your attempts to make Itachi something greater than he is is kind of funny tbh. He's already a powerful and capable character, he doesn't need you bending over backwards to either embellish his feats (like right now) or make up feats entirely (pretend Obito's a sensor so Itachi tracking him becomes more impressive).

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    • Just tell the world why you don't like Itachi having such a feat(he has it and one day you'll get over it), I'm sure everyone wants to know :)

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    • FlatZone wrote: I'll just use lightning chakra, thats much more accurate. Also YOU think the feat isn't as impressive and me saying "I think" goes to show on that part it was speculation. You also just beat your own argument "All jutsu is manifested as a whim by top tier Shinobi. Minato manifested FTG at a whim. We never claim it's because it was directly linked to his chakra system. Do you have any corroborating evidence for this direct link?" Itachi can whip up Susanoo on a whim by that notion so no chakra build up was necessary.

      1) Okay.

      2) Okay.

      3) Nope. I never said it wasn't a whim for Itachi or any other top tier Ninja. Just that it wasn't 1/1000 of a second whim, like you claim. How ever long it took Sasuke to casually drop his arm + Kirin making it to the ground is the type of whim it was. Just like Danzou and Kakashi responding to Susanoo arrows with Mokuton and Kamui. Nothing much special about it at all inside the ranks of the top tiers. It's just two more whims.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Hs is above Itachi, in front of Itachi so of course the angle is steep. But you are ignoring Itachi's line of sight on the last 2 pages compared to the first page.

      I literally addressed that in a previous post:

      Ninja Of War wrote:

      Sasuke is standing in a position that is higher (steeper), relative to Itachi. So Itachi has to look up to see Sasuke. If he only looks forward, he won't see Sasuke. The white-out is clearly after Sasuke's hand motion, not before or during. Indicating only activation then.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Just tell the world why you don't like Itachi having such a feat(he has it and one day you'll get over it), I'm sure everyone wants to know :)

      Das cool, resort to spouting unrelated stuff that doesn't have anything to do with the actual reply because you can't actually think of a valid response.

      Keep making things up for Itachi, I'm sure he appreciates it.

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    • Lmao just give it up already you two, it's not working.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Lmao just give it up already you two, it's not working.

      You just ignored my post again.

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    • I already told you what was what, you ignore it and keep posting the same thing. So I will ignore you and post the same things since I am correct on it. I posted panels showing you the difference in Itachi's eye level gaze and angle. You choose to be ignorant of it so there is no longer a point in discussing that with you. @Squinty the same applies to you, there is no longer a point discussing it with you and Ultima either you all like to ignore any and everything that you don't like and don't agree with no matter how correct it is. You all also keep doing everything you are accusing other users of doing while pointing out when you think other users are doing those things when half the time they are not. You are hypocrites. It's simply not possible for you all to get it or accept it so drop it and move on already.

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    • FlatZone wrote: @Squinty the same applies to you, there is no longer a point discussing it with you and Ultima either you all like to ignore any and everything that you don't like and don't agree with no matter how correct it is. You all also keep doing everything you are accusing other users of doing while pointing out when you think other users are doing those things when half the time they are not. You are hypocrites. It's simply not possible for you all to get it or accept it so drop it and move on already.

      Everything in bold. The cognitive dissonance is real. Who is the one that's accusing others of not liking certain characters having certain feats simply because you've failed to persuade them that said characters do? Who is the one that's accusing others of ignoring your posts when they have addressed them while ignoring their posts at the same time? Honestly, you are by far the biggest hypocrite I've ever seen on these forums.

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    • FlatZone wrote: I already told you what was what, you ignore it and keep posting the same thing. So I will ignore you and post the same things since I am correct on it. I posted panels showing you the difference in Itachi's eye level gaze and angle. You choose to be ignorant of it so there is no longer a point in discussing that with you. @Squinty the same applies to you, there is no longer a point discussing it with you and Ultima either you all like to ignore any and everything that you don't like and don't agree with no matter how correct it is. You all also keep doing everything you are accusing other users of doing while pointing out when you think other users are doing those things when half the time they are not. You are hypocrites. It's simply not possible for you all to get it or accept it so drop it and move on already.

      You agreed that Sasuke is above Itachi and the viewing angle is steep. And that Itachi has to look up to see Sasuke. But you are forgetting that both the Kirin-dragon and Sasuke are in the same direction relative to Itachi. So Itachi's field of vision contains both Sasuke and Kirin-dragon, it's not either or. Which I mentioned here already:

      Ninja Of War wrote: Don't know if you're addressing me with the later points, but the Kirin-dragon and Sasuke are in the same direction from Itachi's point of view on the second of your links.

      Also, you didn't address @Squinty's point of Kakashi cutting lightning. If you gonna give Itachi this feat, why exclude Kakashi?

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    • Kakashi was not blind, not near death and was using a lighting style technique which is chidori, it attracts lighting natural and unnatural so we don't know what he did exactly to enable himself to cut it. Itachi was near blind, near death and had no such lightning style to attract or block with. Itachi did this while as I already explained not even looking at sasuke but looking above him into the sky at the extreme light change which we know as Kirin. You all are horrible at this, and "UltimaDude" this " The cognitive dissonance is real." applies to you all more than me. Get a grip and shove off. You're all are being annoying and childish simply because you're not getting your way and that bud, is a personal problem that each of you possess. You think your one sided, biased and hypocritical tactics will gain somebodies concession to your invalid and incorrect views on what that feat is but sad news for you, it won't. We COULD have civil conversations and debates over this but you have prevented that time and again. Blame yourself.

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    • @FlatZone

      Again, Kakashi cutting lightning, means he reacted to it. You claim Itachi reacted to lightning, same thing feat. Chidori on it's own doesn't attract lightning. So why is your praise only to Itachi?

      You still didn't address my point of Kirin and Sasuke being in the same direction relative to Itachi, and thus both being in Itachi's field of view. Your response of "Itachi not looking at Sasuke", is unsupported, because we don't have a first person view from Itachi at the point of Kirin activating. Which, not only me, but @Cyberian, brought up before.

      FlatZone wrote: https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9YRHo3M3Ffs/XeZTN3p4IEI/AAAAAAAAKi4/A5e4yU4bkHUyUrkvwRqMrjtBtzXAOBdeQCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/007.webp Kirin is now present and it is super bright, Itachi is looking further up and at Kirin, not Sasuke.

      This I believe is what you are anchoring your argument on. As I said above, there is no first person reference here. Which is why I then looked at Itachi's field of vision, which is factual and includes Sasuke.

      I'm here to listen what you have to say, provided my points are acknowledged and addressed, that's why I participate in these threads. Honestly, I don't take these debates too seriously, so directing any negativity towards me is pretty pointless. Provoking and accusing users, then claiming others not having civil conversations is not on man.

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    • Look behind Itachi to his right and you can see the ground and a small but of rubble. He is clearly looking up at the sky, the angle shows that. Also that would still be a legitimate feat for Kakashi too, though not as impressive considering he was not nearly blind, was not nearly dead, and had chidori to use against the lightning in ways pointed out already

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    • If Chidori attracted Lightning, why did Kirin strike Itachi and not Sasuke, who both had Lightning Release in his hand and was higher up than Itachi?

      Because Chidori doesn't just attract lightning lol and claiming it does it baseless.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Look behind Itachi to his right and you can see the ground and a small but of rubble. He is clearly looking up at the sky, the angle shows that. Also that would still be a legitimate feat for Kakashi too, though not as impressive considering he was not nearly blind, was not nearly dead, and had chidori to use against the lightning in ways pointed out already

      The Sharingan captures everything that happens within your field of vision. You don't need to be directly looking at the target. Almost nothing can escape its attention, except motion that outstrips even Sharingan prediction, like 4th Raikage Raiton armor, Kirabi swordplay, or Itachi hand speed. Anything else, if it's in front of his face, it's being recorded in the Sharingan, whether he's looking dead at it or not, plain and simple.

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    • Squinty97 wrote: If Chidori attracted Lightning, why did Kirin strike Itachi and not Sasuke, who both had Lightning Release in his hand and was higher up than Itachi?

      Because Chidori doesn't just attract lightning lol and claiming it does it baseless.

      Sasuke was using lighting chakra, not Chidori(He didn't have enough for any chakra technique) and Sasuke was controlling the lightning to aim it at Itachi so why would it strike him regardless?? durrr.

      @Cyberian, already explained why Sasuke being in the field of vision from that distance wouldn't change anything, besides Itachi was looking directly up at Kirin which was brighter than everything else. He wasn't paying attention to Sasuke at that point and Sasuke only had just enough chakra to initiate and launch Kirin at Itachi so from that distance and with Itachi's eyesight I severely doubt he would be able to differentiate anything Sasuke was doing with or without chakra vision.

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    • @FlatZone

      Your claim of "chidori attracting lightning" is unsupported. Furthermore, once again the Kirin-dragon itself is not bright enough to white-out the panel. So visibility is still fine until the last panel on ch391 pg8, which I remind you is after Sasuke's hand motion. You haven't actually explained why Itachi won't be able to see Sasuke in his field of vision. I know you said "Itachi was looking directly up at Kirin", but there is no first person reference from Itachi that excludes Sasuke from his field of vision.

      And I think that's gonna be the main persisting flaw in your argument.

      Therefore, with Itachi still able to see and predict Sasuke's hand motion and with the knowledge that "lightning from the heavens" is gonna strike him, it's beyond reasonable doubt that Itachi knew he had to use Susanoo to defend himself beforehand.

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    • He was going to use Susanoo to defend himself from lightning regardless, he had to time and react to the lightning and thats the point. He was near blind and near dead so him timing and reacting it in that state is what is being emphasized. Itachi was SO near blind that ONE Susanoo usage blinded him. You keep downplaying this and for no real reason.

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    • FlatZone wrote: He was going to use Susanoo to defend himself from lightning regardless, he had to time and react to the lightning and thats the point. He was near blind and near dead so him timing and reacting it in that state is what is being emphasized. Itachi was SO near blind that ONE Susanoo usage blinded him. You keep downplaying this and for no real reason.

      You still didn't address your whole unsupported "Chidori attracts lightning " point. The prediction is what being emphasized. Therefore, the reaction is secondary. True, it is impressive that Itachi managed with his illness, but it definitely was not pure reaction. I don't consider Itachi predicting an attack to be a downplay though, Itachi doing that is business as usual for him.

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    • Electricity is attracted to electricity and conductive materials, and chakra made lightning should be an attractor just the same.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Electricity is attracted to electricity and conductive materials, and chakra made lightning should be an attractor just the same.

      Then @Squinty's point about Kirin striking Sasuke would be valid then lol. Electricity is not attracted to electricity either. Lightning is caused by unlike electrically charged regions between the ground and atmosphere. Are you gonna provide proof that chidori always produces a positive electrical charged region? Good luck with that. Look, it's ok if you are wrong on this point, no-ones gonna hold it against you. Just don't double down, because then who's gonna believe you?

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    • "Electricity is attracted to electricity"

      Dafuq?!?

      That's not how physics work, not even in Kishi's world.

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    • Ok so say it won't work that way in the Narutoverse for a moment. In real life if you have a live wire laying around outside and theres a storm coming around what do you think is going to happen? the lightning will strike that live wire and blow the breaker out. But none of you work with electricity and wiring I see so there's that. Notice the words "conductive" too. Holding lightning release chakra whether through a technique or not should attract lightning somewhat if there is a storm(you would be the conductor since you are holding the lightning release chakra or tech), it is also the reason Sasuke is able to control Kirin, because he used the lightning release chakra to control natural lightning. Think about how that works.

      BTW CyberGin, doing all that quirky extra shit is annoying. "Dafuq?!?" what do you think this is a Ghetto Comic forum or something??

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    • FlatZone wrote: Ok so say it won't work that way in the Narutoverse for a moment. In real life if you have a live wire laying around outside and theres a storm coming around what do you think is going to happen? the lightning will strike that live wire and blow the breaker out. But none of you work with electricity and wiring I see so there's that. Notice the words "conductive" too. Holding lightning release chakra whether through a technique or not should attract lightning somewhat if there is a storm(you would be the conductor since you are holding the lightning release chakra or tech), it is also the reason Sasuke is able to control Kirin, because he used the lightning release chakra to control natural lightning. Think about how that works.

      Conductivity has nothing to do with where a lightning strike may occur. It's only a factor in how lightning passes through an object. Having a live wire means nothing unless it's positively-charged, large, and high up. Straight out of the National Weather Service of the United States....

      Myth: Structures with metal, or metal on the body (jewelry, cell phones,Mp3 players, watches, etc), attract lightning.

      Fact: Height, pointy shape, and isolation are the dominant factors controlling where a lightning bolt will strike. The presence of metal makes absolutely no difference on where lightning strikes. Mountains are made of stone but get struck by lightning many times a year. When lightning threatens, take proper protective action immediately by seeking a safe shelter – don’t waste time removing metal. While metal does not attract lightning, it does conduct it so stay away from metal fences, railing, bleachers, etc.

      Sasuke manipulated lightning to make Kirin the same way Kisame manipulated the ocean to cast Water Release: Great Shark Bullet Technique.

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    • @FlatZone

      Again, the only way you would prove your statement would be to show that chidori always produces a positive electrically charged region and furthermore, supersedes the facts that @Ultima mentioned. Which you haven't done as of yet, and I doubt you can. The unsupported point that you are making with "chidori attracts lightning", is just so far removed from the argument you were initially making, which IIRC was trying to discredit Kakashi cutting lightning as a feat.

      If you have to go that far to be selective in your praise for only Itachi, I think it's time for a rethink.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Ok so say it won't work that way in the Narutoverse for a moment. In real life if you have a live wire laying around outside and theres a storm coming around what do you think is going to happen? the lightning will strike that live wire and blow the breaker out. But none of you work with electricity and wiring I see so there's that. Notice the words "conductive" too. Holding lightning release chakra whether through a technique or not should attract lightning somewhat if there is a storm(you would be the conductor since you are holding the lightning release chakra or tech), it is also the reason Sasuke is able to control Kirin, because he used the lightning release chakra to control natural lightning. Think about how that works.

      BTW CyberGin, doing all that quirky extra shit is annoying. "Dafuq?!?" what do you think this is a Ghetto Comic forum or something??

      Pretty sure you've never worked with any of that, because that sounds nothing like what I learned in linear and digital electronics. But hey! Maybe lightning's completely different!

      LMAO! Nobody says "dafuq" in real life. That's something only ever seen on the Internet. I've never once heard anybody say it in real life. Ghetto?!? What kind of @$$ pull is that? Since we're handing out unsolicited advice, you really should keep whatever prejudices you have to yourself. And if you can't stand the quirky extra $#!% then get off the Internet.

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    • I'm confused how is this lighting thing not a feat for Itachi really?

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    • Kuzan Uchiha wrote: I'm confused how is this lighting thing not a feat for Itachi really?

      Refer to this

      If I see you beginning to squeeze the trigger of a gun and move myself out the aiming sights of your gun before you completely pull it and shoot the gun, does that mean I dodged the bullet? No, it doesn't. It just means I moved out the way before you pulled the trigger.

      Itachi anticipated Sasuke using Kirin and reacted to Sasuke bringing his hand down before the dragon striked

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    • Kuzan Uchiha wrote: I'm confused how is this lighting thing not a feat for Itachi really?

      It is a feat. It's just not a 1/1000 of a second feat. It's a react to somebody casually dropping his hand feat.

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    • Both of you are wrong in that he reacted to Sasuke dropping his hand, as he wasn't staring at Sasuke's hand but at kirin. The fact that he put up susanoo after kirin launched makes it a reaction feat. Consider this:

      The fact that he reacted and dodged AFTER the bullet was fired makes it a reaction feat. The same with Itachi, he knew what was coming, but knowing what was coming doesn't help him in any way to counter what's coming after it was launched and no defense being up.

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    • Sharingan takes in everything in his field of vision, so yes he was still looking at Sasuke

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    • Jason

      We were having a discussion a while back, and I'd like to hear your response on this.

      Ninja Of War wrote: But the panel didn't white-out with Sasuke's hand movement, only after. So how can you say kirin was launched already? If we go by the panel white-out, Sasuke's hand movements preempt the launch of Kirin.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: Both of you are wrong in that he reacted to Sasuke dropping his hand, as he wasn't staring at Sasuke's hand but at kirin. The fact that he put up susanoo after kirin launched makes it a reaction feat. Consider this:

      The fact that he reacted and dodged AFTER the bullet was fired makes it a reaction feat. The same with Itachi, he knew what was coming, but knowing what was coming doesn't help him in any way to counter what's coming after it was launched and no defense being up.

      It doesn't matter what he was staring at. As has been demonstrated, if something occurs within the field of vision (which this most certainly did) of the Sharingan, it is recorded and the wielder of the doujutsu is made aware of it. There is absolutely no need for him to be looking directly at it. Direct focus is only necessary when there's multiple objects, moving extremely fast with complex motion, like Kirabi's swordplay. There was nothing like that in this case.

      We have far more information in the pics you provide than we have in Itachi's case. In pic number 2 it clearly shows that dude standing there with the bullets already flying towards him in the air. He only starts his reaction in pic 3. We have no equivalent shot of Itachi standing there doing nothing, like this dude, with Kirin already in motion towards Itachi and then another pic of Itachi initiating Susanoo. These are two completely different situations.

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    • Kirin struck at 1/1000th of a second once Sasuke's hand reached the end of its motion. That means Itachi had 1/1000th of a second to get Susanoo up or he would have died. Whether he tried to predict it or not, that is still impressive as that is faster than the speed of sound. Also do you know how fast a human eye can blink? 1/10th of a second. The difference between that strike and that should show you how near instant it was.

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    • Kirin struck at 1/1000th of a second once Sasuke's hand reached the end of its motion. That means Itachi had 1/1000th of a second added onto the time it took Sasuke to execute his hand motion to get Susanoo up or he would have died.

      Total Reaction Time = Sasuke Hand Motion + 1/1000 sec

      Plenty of time in top tier ninja circles.

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    • Anime elaborated on it, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Nofs_PanuY all the up to the point that it whited out and then right after showing that even as Kirin was coming down Itachi didn't have Susanoo active, no orange or red chakra around him nothing at 9:29. So yes Itachi did react to it.

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    • The anime showed the Kirin-dragon going up into the sky before striking down, giving Itachi more time to predict and react.

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    • Not really, he was still looking up at it just staring at it and the actual strike would still be done at 1/1000th of a second. Itachi literally had Susanoo up at the last possible moment here.

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    • Squinty97 wrote: Sharingan takes in everything in his field of vision, so yes he was still looking at Sasuke

      If he wanted to read sasuke's hand movement he'd be focusing on Sasuke's hand and not the giant lightning dragon.

      Ninja Of War wrote: Jason We were having a discussion a while back, and I'd like to hear your response on this.

      Ninja Of War wrote: But the panel didn't white-out with Sasuke's hand movement, only after. So how can you say kirin was launched already? If we go by the panel white-out, Sasuke's hand movements preempt the launch of Kirin.

      I don't understand what you're saying.

      CyberianGinseng wrote: It doesn't matter what he was staring at. As has been demonstrated, if something occurs within the field of vision (which this most certainly did) of the Sharingan, it is recorded and the wielder of the doujutsu is made aware of it. There is absolutely no need for him to be looking directly at it.

      That makes looking at Sasuke's hand movement not as important as you people are making it out to be.

      We have far more information in the pics you provide than we have in Itachi's case. In pic number 2 it clearly shows that dude standing there with the bullets already flying towards him in the air. He only starts his reaction in pic 3. We have no equivalent shot of Itachi standing there doing nothing, like this dude, with Kirin already in motion towards Itachi and then another pic of Itachi initiating Susanoo. These are two completely different situations.

      I don't understand what you're implying, Itachi clearly didn't have up susanoo before Kirin but during. So the similarities in both scenes is that both Liu Kang and Itachi activated their defense after the enemy's attack had been fired which makes it a reaction feat. Knowing that the attack is coming won't help if your reaction can't keep up with the attack after it had been fired.

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    • Jason of the Mangekyou wrote: That's after kirin was launched itachi had 1/1000 of a second at that point to use it. It was used then.

      But the panel didn't white-out with Sasuke's hand movement, only after. So how can you say kirin was launched already? If we go by the panel white-out, Sasuke's hand movements preempt the launch of Kirin.

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    • Thread super long, closing remarks now because I'm closing the thread soon

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    • FlatZone wrote: Not really, he was still looking up at it just staring at it and the actual strike would still be done at 1/1000th of a second. Itachi literally had Susanoo up at the last possible moment here.

      Again
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