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  • I posted a similar thread to this a while back, but I’m going to be taking a slightly different stance in this thread.

    First, I just wanna say that I know that Six Paths of Pain loses to all versions of Obito. You could argue that this Pain can beat Kid Obito since Kid Obito has fewer speed feats than his older self, and Pain is one of the few opponents that doesn’t get immediately decimated, but Kid Obito would still likely come out on top.

    Pain’s primary weakness against Obito is the separation of the Paths.

    However, I do believe that a healthy, PRIME Nagato, can defeat Kid Obito and Orange-Mask Obito with relative ease. I also believe that Prime Nagato can give White-Mask Obito (without Jinchuriki) a run for his money, but would end up losing. (White Mask wins with mid-high difficulty, due to his access to the Rinnegan’s abilities as well). All the paths in one body makes for an amazing defensive core as well as extreme versatility, something that the Six Paths of Pain did much less efficiently.

    (I don’t consider Kid Obito to have the 9 tails’ power, since he could not summon it at any given point in time at will, like Madara could. He also lost it in the same battle he gained it.)

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    The way many battles end with Obito winning involves his immunity to various attacks and techniques, his Kamui is op hax as I’m pretty sure everyone is aware of. But I’m gonna save talking about his Kamui for last and I’ll start off by talking about how Nagato is essentially “immune” to all of his other abilities, just to get it out of the way.

    1. Obito’s Fire Release and Wood Release - Nagato is able to nullify both Releases as they are ninjutsu and are made up of chakra: the Preta Path can absorb ALL chakra. Even in the case where Nagato is unable to use Preta Path for whatever reason, a Shinra Tensei would also deflect/dissipate either Release.

    2. Ninja weaponry - This technically involves Kamui, but I don’t think it really counts as Obito using it in its most viable way. He has shown the ability to shoot out shuriken, kunai and Fire Release (Fire Release is prevented from the 1. explanation). As for the ninja weaponry, Nagato can use Shinra Tensei to deflect these, use his summonings like the Panda to block them, protect himself with his Asura armour etc. These things aren’t really a factor against Nagato.

    3. Taijutsu - Obviously, we know Obito is very skilled in CQC; he has to be skilled, since it is how he is able to end many fights as efficiently as possible, in conjunction with Kamui. But, it wouldn’t be too easy against an opponent like Nagato, thanks to his Asura Path extensions preventing Obito from getting too close, and the shared vision Nagato would have available to him through his summonings and the King of Hell.

    4. Genjutsu - This most likely wouldn’t work on Nagato, as the Rinnegan is highly resistant to visual genjutsu. (The only genjutsu that has worked on a Rinnegan user was a SOUND based one, Frog Song.) Even if Nagato was caught in the genjutsu, his shared vision with his summonings would alert him of this straight away.

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    5. Kamui

    Right, now onto the part that actually matters.

    As seen by the above analysis of Obito’s other abilities, the only way Obito can possibly beat Nagato is through his use of Kamui. In order for Obito to use Kamui, he has to come into close-quarters with Nagato so he can begin to suck him into the dimension. BUT, Obito has to stay materialised in order to pull someone/something into Kamui. This means that Obito will be vulnerable to the Asura Path extensions that Nagato can create. These extra limbs, wires and mechanisms can be extended quite a long way, which would keep Obito too far from Nagato’s actual body in order to pull him into Kamui.

    Obviously, these Asura extensions aren’t going to stop Obito, since he would simply dematerialise to move closer to Nagato. However, this leads onto Obito’s other problem: Soul Steal. The moment Obito materialises to suck Nagato into Kamui is the moment Nagato grabs his soul. This does NOT mean that Nagato wins at this point, since Obito would dematerialise before Nagato fully rips his soul out. However, it DOES mean that Obito would also fail in sucking Nagato into Kamui. The point of me detailing this exchange is to show how Nagato can utilise the bluff of ripping Obito’s soul out to avoid being pulled into Kamui. And for those who would think that Obito would continue to suck Nagato into Kamui despite being grabbed, Nagato would still have Obito’s soul gripped in his hand, meaning that Obito’s soul would be pulled along with Nagato into the Kamui dimension, indicating a defeat on both sides.

    Just to add on, I think Nagato has exhibited enough speed feats to be able to keep up with Orange Mask Obito, along with his shared vision and his legendary sensory abilities. A crippled and white-haired Nagato was able to keep up with Killer Bee in close quarters. Before Killer Bee threw the Lariat that led to his chakra being absorbed, Killer Bee threw an initial punch to which Nagato DODGED easily. From this, we can understand that a Prime Nagato, a Nagato that would be in even better shape than when he absorbed Bee’s chakra, would perform and react even better. Obito boasts just as great speed feats, with him REACTING to the Raikage’s punch and avoiding Ohnoki’s dust release, quick enough to dematerialise on both occasions.

    With those feats being said, we must acknowledge that Killer Bee and Raikage HAVE to be at similar speed levels in order to synchronise their Double Lariat, and Killer Bee was in his Tailed Beast Cloak Mode against Nagato, which would have boosted his speed and power. From this I can comfortably say that a Prime Nagato would not be easily blitzed by Orange Mask Obito, especially not with his Asura armour, wires and shared vision.

    Hence, this battle would be a long-winded stalemate. Nagato is an absolute chakra monster whilst Obito is essentially half Hashirama cells. Additionally, Nagato is exerting little to no chakra in this fight, since his techniques he would use against Obito are mostly defensive, and any contact with Obito would actually restore chakra through the Preta Path.

    Now, what would turn this battle into a WIN for Nagato, would be his use of Shadow Clones. Nagato has shown the ability to use Shadow Clones from as early as the Original Akatsuki, which would prove instrumental against Obito in a fight. All Nagato would need to do is create at least 2 shadow clones (he can obviously make more given his monstrous chakra level) to compensate for the lack of bodies that he has as Prime Nagato, and not the Six Paths of Pain. This essentially leaves Obito near helpless, since if Obito attempts to suck Nagato into Kamui and succeeds, he automatically loses the fight. By doing this, he will have forfeited his ability to go intangible, as he would be attacked in the Kamui dimension by either the real Nagato or one of Nagato’s clones. Nagato wouldn’t even need to rip Obito’s soul out; if either Nagato stabbed Obito with a chakra rod, Obito would be unable to utilise any of his techniques properly, and could then be dispatched with minimal difficulty.

    Also, if real Nagato was the one who was sucked into the Kamui dimension, Nagato’s clones would be able to reverse-summon Nagato back through the Animal Path.

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    6. Izanagi

    Now, I haven’t forgotten this ability. Obito would obviously use this when caught up in the dire situation shown above, but all this technique would do is save Obito from death, not secure him the win. When used against Konan, he appeared directly behind her and then stabbed her with an iron pipe. Against Nagato, something like this wouldn’t work. Nagato’s shared vision, his close proximity to his other shadow clone/s and his godly sensory abilities would allow Obito to be noticed quite quickly. This was the same with Danzo, he simply reappeared a certain distance away from Sasuke, and was immediately detected by Karin. Nagato’s sensory skills are LEAGUES above Karin’s, meaning that Nagato would be able to sense Obito fairly quickly.

    Obito might be able to catch Nagato off-guard and dispatch one of his clones, but this is highly unlikely given the aforementioned reasons. Obito would most likely use his ninja weaponry or Releases disrupt the shared vision of the summonings since they have no way of dodging these attacks. But once this has been done, Nagato would then know for certain that Obito is not dead, and then Obito would be back to square one, where none of his techniques would help him against Nagato and his clones.

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    • Ye Orange Mask Obito may last a bit just due to Kamui, but I feel like healthy Nagato would overwhelm him without too much actual difficulty.

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    • I’m not sure, really. I mean, Obito pretty much counters everything with Kamui, including the summons and shinra tensei. And in close combat one would think that Obito has the edge, again, due to Kamui. And if he manages to trap Nagato in his dimension, which isn’t unlikely, the battle is pretty much over. Not to mention that Obito has wood release, and crazy endurance and stamina and if thigs get really bad, Izanagi.

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    • @Vladosaurus, the same goes for Nagato. Nagato counters everything in Obito’s arsenal besides Kamui. So things like Wood Release aren’t much of a factor in this MU, and Nagato has exhibited just as much endurance and stamina, if not more.

      As for trapping Nagato in the Kamui dimension, this would be detrimental for Obito if Nagato has even one Shadow Clone created at that point in time, since he’d be attacked from either dimension.

      And even if we don’t bring clones into this, Nagato can alter his stance completely by gaining omnidirectional vision with extra faces and limbs. He can use the same Soul Steal bluff to get Obito to dematerialise, resulting in the stalemate that I mentioned before, or until Obito dies of exhaustion, since Nagato has way more chakra than him. (Obito's Hashi cells merely reduce the drawbacks of using techniques and his ocular abilities. He would definitely take a long time to go down from exhaustion, but it would happen before Nagato for sure).

      Kamui is Obito’s only possible way to beat Healthy Nagato in a battle. And even that is unlikely and has its own risks, given my previous explanation.

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    • Senjutsu Sage
      Senjutsu Sage removed this reply because:
      wrong
      14:56, January 3, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • If Obito could beat Nagato and make him do stuff like force him to use the Rinne Tensei then he would have, Obito wanted the Rinnegan and knew Nagato wouldn't have gone along with the real Eye of the Moon plan. Obito even repeated Konan's sentiments that Nagato was unbeaten and essentially unbeatable. A healthy Nagato with perfect legs? I don't think Obito would even want to mess with that.

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    • @Hal. compared to your entire post, this is essentially naive thought (very naive. like really naive) but do you think obito would consider doing this?:

      pulls of a great fire ball technique, then kamui's away (idk if nagato would see this happen). nagato considers the fire ball technique a futile move, takes it head on, and preps to absorb it with the preta path.. in the midst of absorbing it. obito appears behind him, then, " " " " "

      what's your thought on this?

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    • Nagato's a sensor, and Obito using Kamui on himself takes longer than using it on people, leaving Nagato ample time to sense and react to this kind of attack.

      In fact, he'd already know something was up as soon as he sensed Obito's chakra had completely disappeared out of nowhere.

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    • @Senjutsu, I agree with Squinty.

      Nagato is honestly the only reason Itachi was able to stop the Edo Tensei in the war arc. He sensed Kabuto with minimal difficulty, MILES away, and through a sensing barrier in Ryuchi cave. Nagato’s sensory skills are so underrated.

      There’s also the fact that Nagato would see Obito teleport behind him either with his own extra faces that we have seen the Asura Path capable of, or with the summonings.

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    • that i understand but he's absorbing the fireball technique, and obito after he kamui's behind him attacks to kill btw (not try to send him to the kamui dimension. should of said it). and i think kamui goes faster if he chooses to speed it up. him saving sasuke before onoki could erase him with particle style at the kage summit attests to that

      "There’s also the fact that Nagato would see Obito teleport behind him either with his own extra faces that we have seen the Asura Path capable of, or with the summonings."

      loool, i didn't consider him with that in the scenario. lol my bad. true i'm thinking about it at the start of the fight

      nagato sensed him through the edo tensei link though. i think that's what itachi said to kabuto (he lied and said he sensed him)

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    • If Obito could actually defeat Nagato in a straight up battle, he would've done so a long time ago. Especially considering the fact that he had no intention of reviving Madara anyway, it would've made sense for him to take Madara's original eyes from Nagato. He didn't because he knew he couldn't beat Nagato in a pitched battle without a severe cost. He has no way of actually hurting Nagato with anything he's got. The best he can do is warp himself away using Kamui. I don't think he could even take on the Six paths of pain directly and hope to win much less a healthy Nagato. That being said, white masked war arc obito is a whole other beast to deal with. That would be a battle for ages.

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    • @Senjutsu

      I don’t think Obito has anything to hit Nagato with to deal a mortal blow. 90% of his arsenal is straight up nullified, and using taijutsu against Nagato is basically suicide. A prime example is Killer Bee, a person renowned for his skills with multiple swords, who got disarmed with Nagato’s multiple arms and wires.

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    • trueee. maybe one of his giant shuriken or ninja tools? he could throw it at him. or do it just like he did it vs kakashi, naruto etc in the war (pelt them out with kamui)

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    • Nagato is a master sensor, able to not only sense others from kilometers away but also able to at all times prevent others from sensing his own location. He can also use the Rain Tiger at Will Technique for extra sensory ability. Like others have pointed out Nagato would know instantly when Obito disappears and re-appears. Obito catching him in Kamui is extremely unlikely.

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    • @Senjutsu

      When Jiraiya came back from his toad barrier, he threw a giant shuriken at the Asura Path as a surprise attack, and it was dodged perfectly as a result of shared vision. And if Nagato for some reason can’t move: Shinra Tensei.

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    • Not to mention every summon Nagato has also has shared vision with hi, not just the Six Paths of Pain.

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    • Senjutsu Sage
      Senjutsu Sage removed this reply because:
      wtff
      23:26, January 4, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • @Halcyonite

      Good post, but I'd like to discuss some points:

      - You took the abilityes of Obito and put then singularly aganist Pain to demostrate that he has counter to them, that works, but Obito isn't gonna take turns to use them, still, he's pratically a Kamui fanatic so I see him only using Kamui even when wood relase would've been useful

      - On wood relase, pretha path shouldn't be able to absorb it, beacause differently than water created with chakra, wood realse creates some sort of physical wood using life force or something, like in the WA Hashirama blocked edo Madara with his wood saying that like this he wouldn't be able to use the pretha path (if you wanna take a look at it, was before Naruto hit him with a gigantic rasengan, like when Obito lose the war)

      - On Kamui and human path feints, no one seemed able to move his body while being sucked in, it is in fact a space/time ninjutsu so it's possible that the space gets distorted and your movements in the distorted space can't reach the non distorted one (maybe?), so I'm not sure on this, but if it's true then if Obito touches Nagato before Nagato touches him it's Obito's win

      - Also Kamui actually doesn't require the touch, but it should be slower and probably weaker without it

      - On the clone attacks, Naruto's clone could attack Obito when teleported by Kakashi inside Kamui, but Obito can probably decide where to send people when he sucks them in, like when he took in Fuu and Torune, he later placed them under genjutsu, so he probably alredy costrained them, in addition to this, when he gives them to Kabuto he doesn't eneter Kamui to search and grab them, but just swirls them on the field

      Like imagine in the white mask Obito successufully sucks in KCM Naruto, then he has Kakashi, Gai and Bee on one side and KCM Naruto on the other one?

      - On Izanami, you spoke of it like it was a one time chance, but we know that Obito's phasing has a 5 min duration, Konan made the paper bomb ocean explode for 10 min, when Obito stabbed Konan his eye was still open so Izanagi was still active, meaning that Obito has a 5 min immortality time

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    • No, Hashirama was blocking Madara's absorption ability by having TWO wooden dragons wrap around him(the wooden dragons also have chakra absorption ability, so the two counteracted Madara's absorption)

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    • @FlatZone

      Was the absorpion ability a particular trait of the wood dragon then? I've done a search on this wiki and says that Obito can use it, but has he ever used it?

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    • I have never seen Obito himself actually use it as far as I can recall. Only Madara and Hashirama have used it

      https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Wood_Release:_Wood_Dragon_Technique

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    • @Frwt

      Me deducing each technique separately was just to show how Nagato would counter each and every technique that Obito has, I know Obito wouldn't use them one by one. I was trying to show what little resources Obito has to hit Nagato with.

      The fact that Wood Release is a form of ninjutsu and is made up of chakra is what makes it futile against the Preta Path. Nagato may not recover chakra as a result of Wood Release's similar absorption and sealing properties, but Preta Path would still prevent the technique from doing any real harm. There's also the fact that the summonings could tank the hit for Nagato, especially the Panda and the Dog summoning.

      I'd argue that Obito would have a tougher time touching Nagato than vice versa. Obito can't suck Nagato into Kamui and remain intangible at the same time, which means that all of Nagato's extended Asura arms, his real arms, his wires and his rockets are gonna be flailing around him causing him to go intangible often. The Soul Steal bluff was simply the last resort if the Asura mechanisms didn't keep Obito at bay.

      Obito wouldn't be able to genjutsu a Rinnegan user as easily as he did to Fu and Torune, especially with the summonings granting shared vision. He'd deduce him being in a genjutsu easily.

      I always thought that wherever Obito was in the Kamui dimension was "proportionate" (probably the wrong term) to the real world. So like, Obito travels in the Kamui dimension and then when he reaches his destination, he just shifts into the real world.

      I'm pretty sure it has been established that Izanagi lasts for one whole minute. If Obito still chilled in his spot, he would have still died from Konan's explosion. Izanagi has shown that the user can change their location as well, which is what Obito probably did. Whilst the explosion continued, he disappeared and reappeared somewhere close by and waited until the technique ended.

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    • Izanagi for Obito lasted 5 minutes if I remember correctly, I mean Nagato can easily heal his paths and even himself anyway. Also the only genjutsu that ever shown to work on the Rinnegan were Senjutsu boosted Sound Genjutsu and Obito does not have that.

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    • Ah yeah my bad, his Izanagi lasted longer because of half of his body being Hashirama cells, essentially. But either way, 1 minute and 5 minutes is still shorter than the 10 minutes of explosions, so the original point still stands.

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    • The fact that Wood Release is a form of ninjutsu and is made up of chakra is what makes it futile against the Preta Path. Nagato may not recover chakra as a result of Wood Release's similar absorption and sealing properties, but Preta Path would still prevent the technique from doing any real harm. There's also the fact that the summonings could tank the hit for Nagato, especially the Panda and the Dog summoning.

      But Nagato can't absorb it, Madara didn't (the wood dragon in particular)


      I'd argue that Obito would have a tougher time touching Nagato than vice versa. Obito can't suck Nagato into Kamui and remain intangible at the same time, which means that all of Nagato's extended Asura arms, his real arms, his wires and his rockets are gonna be flailing around him causing him to go intangible often. The Soul Steal bluff was simply the last resort if the Asura mechanisms didn't keep Obito at bay.

      Obito can also speed up the time at which he absorbs, like when he absorbed all the explosion tags mixed with Konan, and we don't know if Nagato can reach Obito from the distorted space, because nobody did, while they could've launched a kunai or something, giving that people that were not suked in were able to do that


      Obito wouldn't be able to genjutsu a Rinnegan user as easily as he did to Fu and Torune, especially with the summonings granting shared vision. He'd deduce him being in a genjutsu easily.

      I always thought that wherever Obito was in the Kamui dimension was "proportionate" (probably the wrong term) to the real world. So like, Obito travels in the Kamui dimension and then when he reaches his destination, he just shifts into the real world.

      He doesn't have to genjutsu people to beat them in his dimension, I'm saying that he has control over his space, othervise swirling people into kamui in his figth with KCM Naruto wouldn't have been a good idea


      I'm pretty sure it has been established that Izanagi lasts for one whole minute. If Obito still chilled in his spot, he would have still died from Konan's explosion. Izanagi has shown that the user can change their location as well, which is what Obito probably did. Whilst the explosion continued, he disappeared and reappeared somewhere close by and waited until the technique ended.

      Ah yeah my bad, his Izanagi lasted longer because of half of his body being Hashirama cells, essentially. But either way, 1 minute and 5 minutes is still shorter than the 10 minutes of explosions, so the original point still stands.

      I didn't say that it lasted 10 min, the paper bomb explosions lasted for that long, but Kamui lasts for 5 min, so he has Izanagi for the other 5

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    • Obito didn't absorb the explosive tags, he stayed intangible for as long as he could, and when he couldn't anymore he used Izanagi.

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    • I mean the first attack there, where Konan tryed to kamikaze on him

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    • I don't recall that. Another thing I noticed is that Konan must be some amazing kind of sensor because she knew when and where he would appear using Kamui...

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    • @Frwt

      Even if Nagato can't absorb the Wood Dragons, he still has other options to evade them. Shinra Tensei, using the summonings to tank the hit, flying away from range (either with the Bird summoning or Nagato using the Deva Path to levitate himself).

      Obito may be able to speed up the rate at which he absorbs something, but that wouldn't make it instantaneous. Also, Say for example that one of Nagato's arms were being sucked into Kamui, that wouldn't make Nagato immobile, he could still function and move his other arms. He just wouldn't be able to walk away. This is similar to how Deidara was still functioning whilst his arm was being sucked into Kamui; he was actively trying to pull out his arm and questioning what the hell was going on. The difference with Nagato is that Nagato can actually do something about being sucked into Kamui, which is Soul Steal. Obito is right next to him and has to be tangible to use Kamui on Nagato. It's unlikely that Obito will grab Nagato and successfully suck him into Kamui before Nagato even touches him. Nagato has too many arms, wires and shared vision to be slow on that. Killer Bee has faster CQC speed than Orange Mask Obito, and a crippled white-haired Nagato dodged him in his Cloak Mode, and then proceeded to disarm him later on when he came to save Naruto with zero difficulty.

      He does genjutsu them though. He used genjutsu on Fu and Torune so they wouldn't exploit his weakness. And Obito has nothing to take on Nagato with in his dimension. Think about it. In this match-up, his attempt is to suck Nagato into Kamui. But then after that, then what? He has nothing to touch Nagato with, bar that Wood Dragon if it bypasses Shinra Tensei and a plethora of summonings. Moreover, Obito's chakra supply is quite small in comparison to Nagato's, so Nagato could just stall him out.

      And bare in mind, this is without considering Nagato's use of Shadow Clones. Obito most likely wouldn't be able to suck Nagato into Kamui, because the moment he materialised, the clone could just use Bansho Tenin.

      We don't know if Obito can even act in that duration of time though. He may be able to move, but the whole point of that technique is to turn reality into illusion. It wouldn't make sense if he could kill someone in that timeframe whilst he technically didn't exist, or was "immortal". If he could have killed during this time period, then he could have killed Konan halfway through the explosion technique, since she was far enough away from it. Why wait until your immortality fades, where you had no chance of dying?

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    • FlatZone wrote: I don't recall that.

      Was pretty much at the start of the fight


      Even if Nagato can't absorb the Wood Dragons, he still has other options to evade them. Shinra Tensei, using the summonings to tank the hit, flying away from range (either with the Bird summoning or Nagato using the Deva Path to levitate himself).

      I don't think Obito will attack with it, best he will do is probably use them in a counter defensive way


      Obito may be able to speed up the rate at which he absorbs something, but that wouldn't make it instantaneous. Also, Say for example that one of Nagato's arms were being sucked into Kamui, that wouldn't make Nagato immobile, he could still function and move his other arms. He just wouldn't be able to walk away. This is similar to how Deidara was still functioning whilst his arm was being sucked into Kamui; he was actively trying to pull out his arm and questioning what the hell was going on. The difference with Nagato is that Nagato can actually do something about being sucked into Kamui, which is Soul Steal. Obito is right next to him and has to be tangible to use Kamui on Nagato. It's unlikely that Obito will grab Nagato and successfully suck him into Kamui before Nagato even touches him. Nagato has too many arms, wires and shared vision to be slow on that. Killer Bee has faster CQC speed than Orange Mask Obito, and a crippled white-haired Nagato dodged him in his Cloak Mode, and then proceeded to disarm him later on when he came to save Naruto with zero difficulty.

      Thing is, why should he be able to move in the distorted space? Obito's Kamui is different form Kakashi's

      Minato nearly reached him with the rasengan but he didn't continue to push it, and Minato is fast, your examples are of Nagato that reacts to Obito and after being touched he attacks him, but even if both attacks each other if Obito touches you first his distortion is gonna cover your whole body, and you can't exit it


      He does genjutsu them though. He used genjutsu on Fu and Torune so they wouldn't exploit his weakness. And Obito has nothing to take on Nagato with in his dimension. Think about it. In this match-up, his attempt is to suck Nagato into Kamui. But then after that, then what? He has nothing to touch Nagato with, bar that Wood Dragon if it bypasses Shinra Tensei and a plethora of summonings. Moreover, Obito's chakra supply is quite small in comparison to Nagato's, so Nagato could just stall him out.

      Like I said before Obito should have control over his space, he sended both Fuu and Torune to Kamui, then what he fought them there and put them under genjutsu? Couldn't he have done that without putting them inside it then? Even if he can just decide at whitch distance and place of his space time they're put he can send him somewere and let him starve


      And bare in mind, this is without considering Nagato's use of Shadow Clones. Obito most likely wouldn't be able to suck Nagato into Kamui, because the moment he materialised, the clone could just use Bansho Tenin.

      Like said before the clone method can't work, Naruto's clone was teleported by Kakashi not Obito, and it would't make sense for Obito fighting 2 jinchuriki along with Kakashi and Gai and trying to suck in people


      We don't know if Obito can even act in that duration of time though. He may be able to move, but the whole point of that technique is to turn reality into illusion. It wouldn't make sense if he could kill someone in that timeframe whilst he technically didn't exist, or was "immortal". If he could have killed during this time period, then he could have killed Konan halfway through the explosion technique, since she was far enough away from it. Why wait until your immortality fades, where you had no chance of dying?

      Danzo attacked Sasuke and moved fine, Obito was still in a sea of explosions so even if he was immortal he was still getting killed continiously and continiously getting reassembled


      EDIT:

      I always thought that wherever Obito was in the Kamui dimension was "proportionate" (probably the wrong term) to the real world. So like, Obito travels in the Kamui dimension and then when he reaches his destination, he just shifts into the real world.

      Sorry I just noticed that I didn't respond to this, but I agree it makes sense for his ability to teleport that he can set it like: "3 meters in Kamui word are 10 meters in the real one"

      It should make sense beacause he then uses Kamui to travel dimensions (Kaguya fight) saing that Kaguya dimension is a lot far, so he could've travelled infinite distances to hop from a dimention to another, I dont know lol

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    • @Frwt

      Left-eye Kamui and Right-eye Kamui are functionally identical, the only difference between them is the range it can be used at (and Obito's intangibility). What Kamui does is that it sends the target/object to the Kamui dimension, and this is for both eyes. Deidara was literally moving in a direction with his bird and the Kamui on his arm stayed with him.

      Minato's hand after using the Rasengan was left on Obito's back long enough for a Raijin mark to be placed, so I don't think it's that much of an achievement. It would be like me celebrating losing a race just because my opponent is Usain Bolt.

      But Obito would be effectively killing himself if he continued to suck Nagato into his dimension whilst Nagato has touched him. Nagato would pull Obito's soul along with him into the Kamui dimension. That's why I don't think Obito would just use Kamui on Nagato. He would try, and then realise the problem and go intangible, eventually leading to Nagato's victory via stalling or shadow clones.


      I don't think Obito has control of where he puts people in Kamui. He most likely did go inside the dimension to use genjutsu on Fu and Torune. If Obito did have control, why would he use Kamui on Kakashi and place him right next to his own intangible body parts, where Kakashi would hit him?


      The 5th quote you used in your comment was not the same point as sucking Nagato or his clones into Kamui. It was the fact that if Obito is about to grab Nagato to use Kamui, the other clones would use Bansho Tenin and disrupt him.

      But I don't get it. If Obito wouldn't use Kamui because of Nagato's clones, then what would he do? Obito has literally nothing left in his arsenal to use that would even hope to take out Nagato, if you're excluding Kamui.


      Danzo's Izanagi time was 1 minute, compared to Obito's 5 minutes, so chances are, he was quicker to attack Sasuke because of this. Obito literally has no reason to wait until his immortality faded, to then try and stab Konan. We have seen that Izanagi can teleport you, with Danzo fading and reappearing somewhere else. Obito would have easily teleported out of the sea of explosions and right behind Konan during his immortality, to assure victory. But he didn't, so that would imply he cannot kill during his illusion. He would have avoided the whole last skirmish with Konan as well.


      Yeah I do think that Obito's Kamui is based on distances in both the real world and his dimension. I also think thats why Kakashi was right next to Obito's intangible body parts, since Obito teleported Kakashi to Kamui in the same place where Kakashi saw his body in Kamui.

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    • Left-eye Kamui and Right-eye Kamui are functionally identical, the only difference between them is the range it can be used at (and Obito's intangibility). What Kamui does is that it sends the target/object to the Kamui dimension, and this is for both eyes. Deidara was literally moving in a direction with his bird and the Kamui on his arm stayed with him.

      That was a small one Kakashi was still trying to pierce him with it And the right eye swirls people in the near distance in the eye, while the left one does the hole thing


      Minato's hand after using the Rasengan was left on Obito's back long enough for a Raijin mark to be placed, so I don't think it's that much of an achievement. It would be like me celebrating losing a race just because my opponent is Usain Bolt.

      But Obito would be effectively killing himself if he continued to suck Nagato into his dimension whilst Nagato has touched him. Nagato would pull Obito's soul along with him into the Kamui dimension. That's why I don't think Obito would just use Kamui on Nagato. He would try, and then realise the problem and go intangible, eventually leading to Nagato's victory via stalling or shadow clones.

      I wasn't referring to what happened after the FTG and rasengan to the back, but before Minato uses FTG, there Obito touched him first but he was alredy attaking him, considering the swirling time he shoul've reached him


      I don't think Obito has control of where he puts people in Kamui. He most likely did go inside the dimension to use genjutsu on Fu and Torune. If Obito did have control, why would he use Kamui on Kakashi and place him right next to his own intangible body parts, where Kakashi would hit him?

      Then why didn't he place Fuu and Torune under genjutsu in the the real word? And didn't Obito wanted to be pierced in the heart by Kakashi?


      The 5th quote you used in your comment was not the same point as sucking Nagato or his clones into Kamui. It was the fact that if Obito is about to grab Nagato to use Kamui, the other clones would use Bansho Tenin and disrupt him.

      Ah ok then lol So it could work? Guess yes if clones can use the rinnegan, it's strange Nagato used paths and not clones, he could make more and every clone had a mind of his own and could use all the jutsu

      But I don't get it. If Obito wouldn't use Kamui because of Nagato's clones, then what would he do? Obito has literally nothing left in his arsenal to use that would even hope to take out Nagato, if you're excluding Kamui.

      Yes if Nagato can do the above thing Obito will be like fighting multiples Nagatos and that's it (unless he also decides to use clones?)


      Danzo's Izanagi time was 1 minute, compared to Obito's 5 minutes, so chances are, he was quicker to attack Sasuke because of this. Obito literally has no reason to wait until his immortality faded, to then try and stab Konan. We have seen that Izanagi can teleport you, with Danzo fading and reappearing somewhere else. Obito would have easily teleported out of the sea of explosions and right behind Konan during his immortality, to assure victory. But he didn't, so that would imply he cannot kill during his illusion. He would have avoided the whole last skirmish with Konan as well.

      Izanagi teleports you in the sense that lets you chose another option, Obito couldn't fly and was in a sea of explosions he just had to tank it, like even if could have got out but didn't it's just for a forced story, Danzo clearly moved and attacked Sasuke I don't get the "Danzo had 1 min so he was quicker"


      Yeah I do think that Obito's Kamui is based on distances in both the real world and his dimension. I also think thats why Kakashi was right next to Obito's intangible body parts, since Obito teleported Kakashi to Kamui in the same place where Kakashi saw his body in Kamui.

      So even if Obito didn't have any other control over it we agree that he could still decide to do "50 cm in Kamui world is 1 Km in the real one" and teleport away the people he swirls in?

      He also has platforms and such that could be too distant for a jump or something

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    • @Frwt Idk, I still think that if Obito used Kamui on Nagato, he'd be pulling him in, but it wouldn't restrict the movement of Nagato's extended Asura limbs and wires, just because they wouldn't be close enough to the epicenter of Obito's Kamui. I also just thought of this other tactic Nagato could do: who's to say that Nagato wouldn't employ the same strategy Konan used, but instead of paper-bombs, he'd use the Asura Path to blow Obito up in his portal? And I'm not sure if Nagato would be damaged by the explosion, because on many occasions, we see the Asura Path's head open up and do some weird blue explosion that would make you think he's self-destructing, but then he is just completely fine afterwards.


      I'm not sure I follow your point regarding Minato, I don't know what part of the fight you're referring to.


      It would probably be easier for Obito to use genjutsu on them in the Kamui dimension, where they are surely bewildered and stranded from potential assistance. And the way Obito took them both into Kamui was from behind them, so he didn't have direct eye contact with them the moment he used Kamui.

      It's the same thing with Konan. Why didn't Obito use genjutsu on her from the very beginning of the fight, and just force her in the genjutsu to tell him where the Rinnegan is, rather than lose an arm, waste a Sharingan and risk death? Maybe proximity was the issue, or just that Konan was smart and knew to avoid his genjutsu, idk.

      Kakashi wasn't fighting Obito alone at the point I'm referring to. Obito was still fighting Naruto. I'm referring to the point where Kurama essentially throws Kakashi at Obito, and then Obito sucks him into Kamui, and then Naruto freaks out. Then, in that same exact spot (Obito hasn't moved), Kakashi sees Obito's intangible body parts directly in front of him, and then proceeds to punch him. That's why I think the Kamui dimension directly overlaps with the real world in terms of distance.



      I wouldn't think that Obito would use Shadow Clones, at least as many as Nagato could, since their chakra supplies are quite different in size. But if Obito did use the Shadow Clones, it wouldn't really change much except just result in another stalemate.



      What I meant by Danzo's 1 min timer making him quicker to attack Sasuke was that because his immortality would run out quicker than Obito's, he'd end up attacking Sasuke quicker. The moment each eye closed on Danzo's arm could insinuate this. It's just difficult to scale time in anime, since characters can have paragraphs of thoughts in the space of seconds. Like how Naruto and all his Shadow Clones were going to bumrush the Deva Path in the last skirmish, and it seemed to take 30 seconds for Pain to count down the 5 second interval.

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    • Idk, I still think that if Obito used Kamui on Nagato, he'd be pulling him in, but it wouldn't restrict the movement of Nagato's extended Asura limbs and wires, just because they wouldn't be close enough to the epicenter of Obito's Kamui. I also just thought of this other tactic Nagato could do: who's to say that Nagato wouldn't employ the same strategy Konan used, but instead of paper-bombs, he'd use the Asura Path to blow Obito up in his portal? And I'm not sure if Nagato would be damaged by the explosion, because on many occasions, we see the Asura Path's head open up and do some weird blue explosion that would make you think he's self-destructing, but then he is just completely fine afterwards.


      I'm not sure I follow your point regarding Minato, I don't know what part of the fight you're referring to.

      Maybe I just said that in a strange way, you know when Minato telports to the kunai above Obito and puts a rasengan in his back along with the mark?

      Ok just before teleporting, he and Obito were running at each other, Minato telports when Obito touches him, but he was alredy near him with the rasengan, so he could've just pushed foward his arm while being swrirled in and hit Obito?


      It would probably be easier for Obito to use genjutsu on them in the Kamui dimension, where they are surely bewildered and stranded from potential assistance. And the way Obito took them both into Kamui was from behind them, so he didn't have direct eye contact with them the moment he used Kamui.

      It's the same thing with Konan. Why didn't Obito use genjutsu on her from the very beginning of the fight, and just force her in the genjutsu to tell him where the Rinnegan is, rather than lose an arm, waste a Sharingan and risk death? Maybe proximity was the issue, or just that Konan was smart and knew to avoid his genjutsu, idk.

      Kakashi wasn't fighting Obito alone at the point I'm referring to. Obito was still fighting Naruto. I'm referring to the point where Kurama essentially throws Kakashi at Obito, and then Obito sucks him into Kamui, and then Naruto freaks out. Then, in that same exact spot (Obito hasn't moved), Kakashi sees Obito's intangible body parts directly in front of him, and then proceeds to punch him. That's why I think the Kamui dimension directly overlaps with the real world in terms of distance.

      Guess it's true, but how do we explain his way of fighting multiple enemies?

      Maybe a thing that could work is that when he has the enemyes in his dimension he can easly put them under genjutsu? This way putting Fuu and Torune there could have been reasonable, like when fighting with multiple enemyes and trying to put them in Kamui-land


      I wouldn't think that Obito would use Shadow Clones, at least as many as Nagato could, since their chakra supplies are quite different in size. But if Obito did use the Shadow Clones, it wouldn't really change much except just result in another stalemate.

      But Kamui speed gets multiplied every time that one or more clones use it on the same target, clones will help him and Obito has Hahsirama's cells he should have tons of chakra

      But still this clone thing feels like not a thing for both of them


      What I meant by Danzo's 1 min timer making him quicker to attack Sasuke was that because his immortality would run out quicker than Obito's, he'd end up attacking Sasuke quicker. The moment each eye closed on Danzo's arm could insinuate this. It's just difficult to scale time in anime, since characters can have paragraphs of thoughts in the space of seconds. Like how Naruto and all his Shadow Clones were going to bumrush the Deva Path in the last skirmish, and it seemed to take 30 seconds for Pain to count down the 5 second interval.

      You mean Danzo attaked Sasuke in some kind of intervals? When one of his eye closes the successive alredy activated Izanagi, he even eneded the thing in a kamikaze attack when he trough Izanagi was active

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    • @Frwt

      Minato only let Obito get that close because he had planned what he was going to do before running at him a second time. Minato had to let Obito get close enough so Obito would feel assured of victory and remain tangible, so Minato could then TP and then give him the quick Rasengan.



      To be fair, we haven't really seen Obito engage much with numerous opponents ONLY focused on him, there is usually some other diversion or teammate going on to distract the main cast. Obito mainly chilled behind the scenes manipulating and playing mindgames.

      But, on one of the few occasions we do see him fight multiple people, we've already seen what he would do in that situation. Why would he send Kakashi to the Kamui dimension when facing multiple people? The reason I've thought of for this is that he tried to save Kakashi for later (to pierce his heart), but it's kind of dumb since he jeopardised his most important ability: his intangibility. I would think that he would go into his dimension and take them on by themselves to make it easier.

      But if Nagato was the person he did this to, he can't really do much to him. Obito is a sitting duck without his Kamui/intangibility. And even if it was easier to use genjutsu on people in Kamui, it wouldn't work on Nagato. He has the Rinnegan which is highly resistant to visual genjutsu.



      I think that rule of Kamui getting faster only applies if its the original eyes together, both the Left eye and Right eye. It wouldn't make sense if Orange-Mask Obito made three clones and they all used their collective 3 Right Eyes to make Kamui move faster. They'd be creating three separate portals. And just for argument's sake, let's say they could speed up the rate of Kamui together, they would have to all be right next to Nagato ready to suck him up, since the Right eye can only use Kamui short-range.

      Regardless, Nagato would Shinra Tensei all of them the moment they get close to him, and the clones would die, revealing the real Obito.

      I don't see the problem in using Shadow Clones in this argument. It is an established feat of Nagato, he has shown the ability to use Shadow Clones as early as the Original Akatsuki, and has the chakra to utilise them well. He only didn't use them as Pain since he was emaciated and immobile, and the Paths were essentially permanent Shadow Clones, and wouldn't poof once a certain amount of chakra had been used up. Even characters like Sarada and Konohamaru have used Shadow Clones lol.

      If anything, Nagato is the second best character for using Shadow Clones, next to Naruto. His whole playstyle throughout the entire series involves multiples of himself fighting multiple people.



      Yeah, I'm not entirely sure about the Danzo thing, and whether Obito can attack in his immortality phase of Kamui. Lets say that Obito can kill someone whilst immortal, and its not still "illusion" or whatever. I still think that Soul-Steal would work on Obito, it's just that once Soul Steal is used, Obito disppears and re-appears somewhere else. So the technique could still execute, it just wouldn't kill Obito in the immortality timeframe. It's also like how Soul-Steal would still work on Edo-Tensei zombies. It would rip the soul out of the fake body.

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    • Minato only let Obito get that close because he had planned what he was going to do before running at him a second time. Minato had to let Obito get close enough so Obito would feel assured of victory and remain tangible, so Minato could then TP and then give him the quick Rasengan.

      Didn't mean that, I was saying, do you tink if Minato didn't teleport to his kunai in mid air he would have struck Obito before getting warped?


      To be fair, we haven't really seen Obito engage much with numerous opponents ONLY focused on him, there is usually some other diversion or teammate going on to distract the main cast. Obito mainly chilled behind the scenes manipulating and playing mindgames.

      But, on one of the few occasions we do see him fight multiple people, we've already seen what he would do in that situation. Why would he send Kakashi to the Kamui dimension when facing multiple people? The reason I've thought of for this is that he tried to save Kakashi for later (to pierce his heart), but it's kind of dumb since he jeopardised his most important ability: his intangibility. I would think that he would go into his dimension and take them on by themselves to make it easier.

      But if Nagato was the person he did this to, he can't really do much to him. Obito is a sitting duck without his Kamui/intangibility. And even if it was easier to use genjutsu on people in Kamui, it wouldn't work on Nagato. He has the Rinnegan which is highly resistant to visual genjutsu.

      Even if Obito didn't have control over his dimension Nagato till loses if he is transferred into kamui given that Obito can just leave him there (if no clones are involved)


      I think that rule of Kamui getting faster only applies if its the original eyes together, both the Left eye and Right eye. It wouldn't make sense if Orange-Mask Obito made three clones and they all used their collective 3 Right Eyes to make Kamui move faster. They'd be creating three separate portals. And just for argument's sake, let's say they could speed up the rate of Kamui together, they would have to all be right next to Nagato ready to suck him up, since the Right eye can only use Kamui short-range.

      Regardless, Nagato would Shinra Tensei all of them the moment they get close to him, and the clones would die, revealing the real Obito.

      I don't see the problem in using Shadow Clones in this argument. It is an established feat of Nagato, he has shown the ability to use Shadow Clones as early as the Original Akatsuki, and has the chakra to utilise them well. He only didn't use them as Pain since he was emaciated and immobile, and the Paths were essentially permanent Shadow Clones, and wouldn't poof once a certain amount of chakra had been used up. Even characters like Sarada and Konohamaru have used Shadow Clones lol.

      If anything, Nagato is the second best character for using Shadow Clones, next to Naruto. His whole playstyle throughout the entire series involves multiples of himself fighting multiple people.

      Actually I think Obito's clones would be better, he has wood relase so he can make wood clones, while Nagato has to use shadow clones, and Naruto in kurama mode showed back Tendo with the knockback meaning that there is some sort of interaction with the body of the caster, so the clones could no be able to use shinra tensei, and considering that we're using new possibility what about Obito using Kamui to teleport just a part of the body and not the whole thing? An arm the fist time, then a leg and then an hole in the chest


      Yeah, I'm not entirely sure about the Danzo thing, and whether Obito can attack in his immortality phase of Kamui. Lets say that Obito can kill someone whilst immortal, and its not still "illusion" or whatever. I still think that Soul-Steal would work on Obito, it's just that once Soul Steal is used, Obito disppears and re-appears somewhere else. So the technique could still execute, it just wouldn't kill Obito in the immortality timeframe. It's also like how Soul-Steal would still work on Edo-Tensei zombies. It would rip the soul out of the fake body.

      Soul steal isn't istantaneous tho, Obito will be able to use Kamui if they both touch each other

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    • Sasuke was able to summon a hawk to Kaguya's dimensions. Hagoromo used the Kage's chakra to not only reverse summon team 7 and madara, but the tailed beasts too. Nagato can be reverse summoned from Kamui dimension by one of the the corpse paths, Konan, or possibly even one of his Rinnegan Summons as shown with the toads themselves reverse summoning Naruto, and Nagato knows what and how reverse summons work.

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    • @Flat Zone

      Then what was the point of attacking Minato with Kamui? Where was the danger of KCM Naruto getting sucked in? Kakashi could also escape from it with his dogs So could Gai

      Kaguya dimension is different from the Obito's one, Sasuke could also go in there with his rinnegan, Obito's dimension is a poket one and can be accessed by his eyes, when Sasuke gets saved by Obito at the Kage summit he also asks Obito to let them out of there

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    • @Frwt

      If Obito remained tangible, then yes, I think Minato would have struck Obito. He would have been struck and then Minato would have been sucked into Kamui (just depends on whether you think Minato would have killed Obito by doing that or not). It's not like the generated Kamui portal is an impenetrable shield where Obito can't be touched or hurt. Konan disproved that by nearly killing him with paper bombs. This weakness has been established time and time again, he materialises whenever he uses Kamui. But again, that wasn't Minato's intention, he always intended to use FTG. If he didn't plan to use FTG, he wouldn't have charged at Obito like that.



      I'm not sure why you're counting Obito's clones in the MU but then you bracket off Nagato's clones. You can't exclude someone's ability in a MU but allow it for the other opponent.

      Besides, Nagato has actually been shown using Shadow Clones, whilst Obito has not shown the ability to use either Shadow or Wood Clones. Lol, Nagato has shown far more skill in using clones than another other character besides Naruto, with his doppelganger techs. So I'm not sure why you're acting like Nagato can't do a basic Shadow Clone.

      https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Mirrored_Sudden_Attacker_Technique

      https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Shapeshifting_Technique


      That's not the reason why Pain was pushed out of Shinra Tensei. The Shinra Tensei that Pain used on Six Tailed Cloak (STC) was an omnidirectional one, and the way STC resisted it was by rooting its tails into the ground. After that, what STC then did, was shove Tendo towards the edge of his omnidirectional wave of force. The moment he got to the edge of that force was when Tendo was shoved away by his own technique.

      This means that clones should still be able to use Shinra Tensei.

      Obito can already do that? Whenever he's fighting someone, he sends that specific body part to Kamui whilst someone is fazing through it.


      Nagato wouldn't be put in the position where he'd starve to death, since he wouldn't be pulled into Kamui in the first place. I've already said this, but Nagato's Soul Steal doesn't have to work. I know that Soul Steal is not instantaneous, but the fact is, if Obito PULLS Nagato into his dimension while Nagato has merely TOUCHED him, then Nagato would still have Obito's soul gripped in his hand and Obito would be effectively killing himself by pulling BOTH Nagato and his own soul into the Kamui dimension. And given the length of Nagato's Asura extended arms, I'm 100% positive that he'd at least touch him before Obito completely executes Kamui.

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    • If Obito remained tangible, then yes, I think Minato would have struck Obito. He would have been struck and then Minato would have been sucked into Kamui. It's not like the generated Kamui portal is an impenetrable shield where Obito can't be touched or hurt. Konan disproved that by nearly killing him with paper bombs. This weakness has been established time and time again, he materialises whenever he uses Kamui. But again, that wasn't Minato's intention, he always intended to use FTG. If he didn't plan to use FTG, he wouldn't have charged at Obito like that.

      And my point is that Minato couldn't have reached him, I'm not saying that it's an unsurpassable barrier, I'm saying that it distorces space, like a black hole


      I'm not sure why you're counting Obito's clones in the MU but then you bracket off Nagato's clones. You can't exclude someone's ability in a MU but allow it for the other opponent.

      I just said "if no clones are involved" so for both


      Besides, Nagato has actually been shown using Shadow Clones, whilst Obito has not shown the ability to use either Shadow or Wood Clones. Lol, Nagato was even the one who created those complicated doppelganger tag clones that fought Team Guy. So I'm not sure why you're acting like Nagato can't do a basic Shadow Clone.

      https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Mirrored_Sudden_Attacker_Technique

      I'm not saying he can't make clones, I'm saying that both of them don't fight using clones, we don't know the reason but they don't do it It's like saing that rinnegan Sasuke will use a shadow clone in a fight


      That's not the reason why Pain was pushed out of Shinra Tensei. The Shinra Tensei that Pain used on Six Tailed Cloak (STC) was an omnidirectional one, and the way STC resisted it was by rooting its tails into the ground. After that, what STC then did, was shove Tendo towards the edge of his omnidirectional wave of force. The moment he got to the edge of that force was when Tendo was shoved away by his own technique.

      This means that clones should still be able to use Shinra Tensei.

      It's an assumption tho, we don't know if the use of the rinnegan takes a toll on the body, an example is the susanoo that left Sasuke in pain after he used it, when Obito gets the rinnegan he sais that he has difficoulties controlling it or something like that, so why should a clone be able to use the rinnegan abilityes?


      Obito can already do that? Whenever he's fighting someone, he sends that specific body part to Kamui whilst someone is fazing through it.

      I meant for attack purposes, like he sucks in only the arm of the enemy, that should take less time


      Nagato wouldn't be put in the position where he'd starve to death, since he wouldn't be pulled into Kamui in the first place. I've already said this, but Nagato's Soul Steal doesn't have to work. I know that Soul Steal is not instantaneous, but the fact is, if Obito PULLS Nagato into his dimension while Nagato has merely TOUCHED him, then Nagato would still have Obito's soul gripped in his hand and Obito would be effectively killing himself by pulling BOTH Nagato and his own soul into the Kamui dimension. And given the length of Nagato's Asura extended arms, I'm 100% positive that he'd at least touch him before Obito completely executes Kamui.

      I meant that he does this during his Izanagi time, so the soul should pop in inside him after that giving that Nagato doesn't seal it, and actually Obito soul returned from the afterlife thanks to Kamui lol

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    • FlatZone wrote: Sasuke was able to summon a hawk to Kaguya's dimensions. Hagoromo used the Kage's chakra to not only reverse summon team 7 and madara, but the tailed beasts too. Nagato can be reverse summoned from Kamui dimension by one of the the corpse paths, Konan, or possibly even one of his Rinnegan Summons as shown with the toads themselves reverse summoning Naruto, and Nagato knows what and how reverse summons work.

      Konan isn't part of this fight, and neither are the corpse paths. It's just healthy Nagato, and healthy Nagato has never used corpse paths. They're not part of his fighting style as far as we've seen.

      Though I stand by my first point, I do think Nagato wins. Kamui makes it tricky and not a simple fight, but Nagato has more useful abilities and more stamina than Obito.

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    • Alright I'll concede that Minato may not reach Obito in order to stab him, but in terms of Nagato, I think Nagato can. Nagato just has much farther reach in terms of techniques.


      Well, that's wrong, because Nagato has used his clones before in fights. He used his Shadow Clones before he got emaciated by the Gedo Statue, and then he was forced to think of more complicated ninjutsu i.e. Mirrored clones, shapeshifting clones, his six paths techniques, etc.

      Let's pretend that Nagato has never used any type of clones before for argument's sake, except for one occasion, just to show that he has the feat. Saying that "he doesn't use it in fights so let's not include it" is a fallacy in of itself, and can be contradicted with what many people validate as viable techniques in fights:

      - Obito used genjutsu on the 9-tails once, and the majority of the fanbase is deadset on Kid Obito having the entire 9-tails as his fighting style.

      - Itachi, on one occasion, used a Tsukuyomi so potent that it shut down his girlfriend's brain. People have used this argument in many versus battles on this website.

      What I think is, if the individual has shown the ability to use the technique, and has been pictured using it in combat (including stronger derivatives of the same ninjutsu), then it should be allowed in a MU.


      The clue's in the name. Shadow Clones are identical to their caster in every way. The only changing variable is the amount of chakra put into each one. Obito only experienced that pain because he just popped in a Rinnegan and started using it within days. Nagato had his entire life to get accustomed to its power. The knowledge of the clone, the strain of the techniques that had been used etc, are all passed back to the original caster if the Shadow Clone dies.


      I mean, people already argue this stuff for Obito already. People say that DMS Obito insta-wins against anyone since he just snipes their heads off with Left Eye Kamui at the beginning of the fight. So I don't see why Obito can't use Kamui in that way. But he'd still need to remain tangible whilst using Kamui on whatever bodypart. There's also the fact that Nagato can completely heal himself with the Naraka Path, and leave Obito occupied with his clones. If its a feasible notion and fits all of their ability descriptions throughout the manga, then it passes. For example, I could argue that Nagato could make one shadow clone, and they go on either side of someone, use Bansho Tenin, and then rip his body into two pieces. (fyi I'm not including this as something Nagato would do, its just funny to think about lol)


      If Nagato rips out Obito's soul, the soul would disappear (like it usually does) and Obito would disappear. And then he would re-appear somewhere else, and then Nagato would sense him immediately. It's not like Obito would continue to use Kamui whilst his soul is outside of his body completely lmao.

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    • Alright I'll concede that Minato may not reach Obito in order to stab him, but in terms of Nagato, I think Nagato can. Nagato just has much farther reach in terms of techniques.

      Thanks, but what I mean is that you can't escape the distorted space, maybe we can try macking cases, I'll do that at the end

      Well, that's wrong, because Nagato has used his clones before in fights. He used his Shadow Clones before he got emaciated by the Gedo Statue, and then he was forced to think of more complicated ninjutsu i.e. Mirrored clones, shapeshifting clones, his six paths techniques, etc.

      Let's pretend that Nagato has never used any type of clones before for argument's sake, except for one occasion, just to show that he has the feat. Saying that "he doesn't use it in fights so let's not include it" is a fallacy in of itself, and can be contradicted with what many people validate as viable techniques in fights:

      - Obito used genjutsu on the 9-tails once, and the majority of the fanbase is deadset on Kid Obito having the entire 9-tails as his fighting style.

      - Itachi, on one occasion, used a Tsukuyomi so potent that it shut down his girlfriend's brain. People have used this argument in many versus battles on this website.

      What I think is, if the individual has shown the ability to use the technique, and has been pictured using it in combat (including stronger derivatives of the same ninjutsu), then it should be allowed in a MU.


      The clue's in the name. Shadow Clones are identical to their caster in every way. The only changing variable is the amount of chakra put into each one. Obito only experienced that pain because he just popped in a Rinnegan and started using it within days. Nagato had his entire life to get accustomed to its power. The knowledge of the clone, the strain of the techniques that had been used etc, are all passed back to the original caster if the Shadow Clone dies.

      I got on his wiki and seems like he used it only in the anime though

      Itachi used that in the novel? If it was written by Kishi I guess it's fair game?

      But it's a cloned rinnegan, like, why edo Nagato didn't made clones, it would surely helped given that he had troubles at moving


      I mean, people already argue this stuff for Obito already. People say that DMS Obito insta-wins against anyone since he just snipes their heads off with Left Eye Kamui at the beginning of the fight. So I don't see why Obito can't use Kamui in that way. But he'd still need to remain tangible whilst using Kamui on whatever bodypart. There's also the fact that Nagato can completely heal himself with the Naraka Path, and leave Obito occupied with his clones. If its a feasible notion and fits all of their ability descriptions throughout the manga, then it passes. For example, I could argue that Nagato could make one shadow clone, and they go on either side of someone, use Bansho Tenin, and then rip his body into two pieces. (fyi I'm not including this as something Nagato would do, its just funny to think about lol)

      The nakari thing is still uncertain: https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:277178

      And the ripping off with two clones is another example how, why didn't he do it?


      If Nagato rips out Obito's soul, the soul would disappear (like it usually does) and Obito would disappear. And then he would re-appear somewhere else, and then Nagato would sense him immediately. It's not like Obito would continue to use Kamui whilst his soul is outside of his body completely lmao.

      I mean Naruto used his chakra arms in that condition and you said that the soul would have come with Nagato while he is being absorbed into Kamui so the "rip off" would come at the end


      Anyway here's the points 1. You can't move from the inside of the swriling space to the outside 2. Nagato will use shadow clones that can use the rinnegan abilityes 3. Obito can make wood clones 4. Everything that Obito sucks in is teleported near him in the kamui-dimension

      I think Obito will always lose if 1 if false and Izanagi doesn't put the soul back in his body

      So with the condition where 1 is true:

      If 2 is true I think Obito can wins only if 3 is true or if 4 is false

      If 2 is false I think Obito wins


      Exceptional case:

      If we suppose that Obito can actually do the "only teleport a part of the body" I think he can win even if 1 is false but 2 is false

      And can win even if both 1 is false and 2 is true, but he needs 4 to be true

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    • Whilst Nagato has shown the ability in the anime and even more complex derivatives in both manga and anime, Obito hasn't shown the ability at all.

      Edo Nagato was being controlled by Kabuto, so he did not perform as well as he could have. Nagato was even fighting himself. And to be honest, Nagato wouldn't even need shadow clones to take on Itachi, Bee and Naruto. If he was under his own control, he would have been an absolute monster.

      How is the Naraka Path thing uncertain? Think about it. Why would it only work on dead things? Was the Rinnegan designed to have a handicapped user? Don't think so. It was shown to heal bodily distortions such as missing arms and legs, and stab wounds. Nagato most likely couldn't use it on himself due to the nature of his afflictions.

      Obito doesn't have these chakra arms to hold his soul in though. If he is busy pulling his soul into his body, he wouldn't have any hands left.


      I went on the Wood Clone wiki, and Obito isn't listed there at all. I think the best Obito would have is Shadow Clones, given that in order to graduate from the academy, you gotta produce at least one clone.


      It doesn't matter if its a cloned Rinnegan or not. How could Itachi's clones cast genjutsu then? Shadow clones are CLONES for a reason. They are identical in every way.


      I still think Nagato wins this match-up pretty easily. White Mask Obito is what would beat this Nagato.

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    • Whilst Nagato has shown the ability in the anime and even more complex derivatives in both manga and anime, Obito hasn't shown the ability at all.

      Edo Nagato was being controlled by Kabuto, so he did not perform as well as he could have. Nagato was even fighting himself. And to be honest, Nagato wouldn't even need shadow clones to take on Itachi, Bee and Naruto. If he was under his own control, he would have been an absolute monster.

      You made that point on what's canon earlier, and the anime it's not

      Edo Nagato could've made clones like edo Itachi did, he was outnumbered so it's not like he didn't have reasons to create them


      How is the Naraka Path thing uncertain? Think about it. Why would it only work on dead things? Was the Rinnegan designed to have a handicapped user? Don't think so. It was shown to heal bodily distortions such as missing arms and legs, and stab wounds. Nagato most likely couldn't use it on himself due to the nature of his afflictions.

      It's uncertain beacause it has never shown the ability to do so, the recostruction part could easly be too much of a stress on a living body, but could arguably work on someone like Hagoromo


      Obito doesn't have these chakra arms to hold his soul in though. If he is busy pulling his soul into his body, he wouldn't have any hands left.

      I meant it like you can still use chakra while your soul is being ripped out


      I went on the Wood Clone wiki, and Obito isn't listed there at all. I think the best Obito would have is Shadow Clones, given that in order to graduate from the academy, you gotta produce at least one clone.

      The clone that you have to make at the academi is an "illusion" type of clone, it isn't solid, the shadow version is a forbidden jutsu that Tobirama invented

      Obito never showed the ability to make wood clones, and Nagato never showed the ability to make shadow clones (that it's a forbidden tecnique so I don't know why Jiraiya should've teach him that), exception for the anime where I don't know if he made and illision clone or a shadow one, but in both cases it's the anime


      It doesn't matter if its a cloned Rinnegan or not. How could Itachi's clones cast genjutsu then? Shadow clones are CLONES for a reason. They are identical in every way.

      I'm pretty sure Itachi's clones would't be able to use any of Itachi's MS abilityes


      I still think Nagato wins this match-up pretty easily. White Mask Obito is what would beat this Nagato.

      I'm unsure on this to be honest, like Obito with the rinnegan seemed weaker than Obito with Izanagi, I mean he had that eye basically for showings, I don't remember him using the paths abilities, exception for when he needed to do more advanced things or if you give him the jinchuriki

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    • Obito with Rinnegan wasn't much stronger than without Rinnegan though he claims he was I didn't see anything to actually prove that. He himself said he could barely handle one Rinnegan, and definitely not two Rinnegan. Obito was near EMS Madara level in the 4th War as Madara compares Obito to his self in life.

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    • @Frwt

      Again, Kabuto was controlling Nagato. Nagato couldn't use any techniques of his own volition, literally watch the fight again and he says "My body is moving on its own"! Me saying that Nagato didn't even need clones in that match-up isn't saying he can't use them, but just because I think he's strong enough to take them on without.

      You saying Naraka Path could be too much stress on a living body is headcanon. Based on what we've seen of the Naraka path, it shows the ability to heal and mend the worst of distortions. It literally makes no sense to be limited to healing things that are dead.

      There is a stress on using handsigns to activate certain techniques, like Fire Release where he borrowed Kakashi's hands. So if Obito uses both his hands to hold onto his soul then he can't do much. And if Obito doesn't grab his soul, well the battle would be over pretty quickly.

      I'm not sure what gives you the impression that Shadow Clones can't use their abilities, honestly. Even Tailed Beast powers are replicated in Shadow Clones, each individual Naruto clone was in Kyuubi Mode. Madara used his wood clones and they all had their own Susanoos. They can use the ocular techniques or anything from the original user, it just would take up chakra which would lead them closer to going poof.


      Nagato is obviously more proficient with using the Rinnegan, given how he could handle both and had them for his entire life. But, I still think Rinnegan Obito > Orange Mask Obito. Obito when talking to Kabuto confirmed that he could use the Human Path, so he can use at least some of the techniques. The reason why I said in my original post that Healthy Nagato VS White Mask Obito is White Mask wins mid-high dif is because of Obito's access to the Rinnegan's abilities. Human Path on Obito's side would be more easier to execute with Kamui, than Nagato's original strat. But the thing I'm not sure is, is if Obito grabs Nagato's soul, and then Nagato attempts to grab Obito's soul back...>>> Would Obito still have Nagato's soul in his hand if he de-materialises? or would he have to run away and then attempt the Soul Steal thing again?

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    • Again, Kabuto was controlling Nagato. Nagato couldn't use any techniques of his own volition, literally watch the fight again and he says "My body is moving on its own"! Me saying that Nagato didn't even need clones in that match-up isn't saying he can't use them, but just because I think he's strong enough to take them on without.

      So you're supposing that Kabuto is moving Nagato into using the rinnegan abilityes and for some reasons he didn't decide to make shadow clones?


      You saying Naraka Path could be too much stress on a living body is headcanon. Based on what we've seen of the Naraka path, it shows the ability to heal and mend the worst of distortions. It literally makes no sense to be limited to healing things that are dead.

      I'm not formulating a theory on that, it's just an example, the rinnegan has strange limitations, like the outher path, Nagato could revive a whole village but couldn't use it on himself


      There is a stress on using handsigns to activate certain techniques, like Fire Release where he borrowed Kakashi's hands. So if Obito uses both his hands to hold onto his soul then he can't do much. And if Obito doesn't grab his soul, well the battle would be over pretty quickly.

      I'm not sure what gives you the impression that Shadow Clones can't use their abilities, honestly. Even Tailed Beast powers are replicated in Shadow Clones, each individual Naruto clone was in Kyuubi Mode. Madara used his wood clones and they all had their own Susanoos. They can use the ocular techniques or anything from the original user, it just would take up chakra which would lead them closer to going poof.

      No, Madara can use susanoo with the clones beacause they are specifically wood clones, the thing is that susanoo takes a toll on the body and wood clones can sustain some damage without popping out, so tecniques like amaterasu that make your eyes bleed can't be used with clones


      Nagato is obviously more proficient with using the Rinnegan, given how he could handle both and had them for his entire life. But, I still think Rinnegan Obito > Orange Mask Obito. Obito when talking to Kabuto confirmed that he could use the Human Path, so he can use at least some of the techniques. The reason why I said in my original post that Healthy Nagato VS White Mask Obito is White Mask wins mid-high dif is because of Obito's access to the Rinnegan's abilities. Human Path on Obito's side would be more easier to execute with Kamui, than Nagato's original strat. But the thing I'm not sure is, is if Obito grabs Nagato's soul, and then Nagato attempts to grab Obito's soul back...>>> Would Obito still have Nagato's soul in his hand if he de-materialises? or would he have to run away and then attempt the Soul Steal thing again?

      I'm not sure how it should work with souls, given that when he uses that on a body even the chakra gets teleported then if he's still with the sould in his hand and wants to activate Kamui even for the sould then even Nagato will enter the phasing state and Obito will not be able to evade the attack

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    • @Frwt

      Kabuto was very obviously unable to make the most of Nagato's plethora of abilities. I mean even when hit with Amaterasu, he couldn't get the flames off Nagato until after Itachi had a whole exposition dump on Shisui to Naruto.

      Naruto also could use Nine Tails chakra with Shadow Clones back in Part 1 and early Part 2, even though 9 Tails chakra technically continually ate away at his cells. I've never seen the stipulation that the only clones that could use Susanoo were wood clones.

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    • Kabuto was very obviously unable to make the most of Nagato's plethora of abilities. I mean even when hit with Amaterasu, he couldn't get the flames off Nagato until after Itachi had a whole exposition dump on Shisui to Naruto.

      True, also if shadow clones are made I'm unsure on how Kabuto should actually control them, but this still doesn't prove that Nagato can make them


      Naruto also could use Nine Tails chakra with Shadow Clones back in Part 1 and early Part 2, even though 9 Tails chakra technically continually ate away at his cells. I've never seen the stipulation that the only clones that could use Susanoo were wood clones.

      I'm wrong on that, I belived he said that but found that part again and he doesn't mention it, still abilyties that have a toll on the body shouldn't be usable bly clones, should they?

      For Naruto, doesn't he take damage when the 4th tail comes out?

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    • The abilities that have a toll on the body can still be used by Shadow Clones. It's why Naruto would feel fatigued as hell after training with loads of them. They experience the exact same things and then transmit those thoughts, feelings and tolls onto the caster. So if an Itachi clone used Amaterasu, and then the clone died, the original Itachi would feel the strain from when the clone used Amaterasu.

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    • But the clones can't take too much damage, Amaterasu makes the eye bleed, shouldn't a clone puff out before it's casted?

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    • Well, why can Edo Tenseis bleed out the eyes as well? There's been no concrete trend where the more your eyes bleed, the more chakra is used/more strain.

      Itachi's eyes bled a lot, sure, so that has one thing going for it, considering he was near blind. But whenever Obito uses Kamui, his eyes don't bleed once, and they're not EMS. You could say that its because he has Hashi cells, but then if that's the case, why do immortal edo zombies bleed from the eyes?

      It's just weird. I think clones can use these techniques, just not a lot depending on what technique i.e. Itachi would probably collapse after using like 5 Amaterasus, maybe more. So I'd estimate that a clone of his would poof after about 1 or 2 Amaterasu uses.

      As for Nagato's clones, the base outputs of Shinra Tensei don't seem to take up much chakra, considering he spammed it during the invasion of the Leaf, against Naruto, and then against the 9-tails. But I doubt a clone would be able to use techs like Chibaku Tensei unless Nagato split like half of his chakra into one or two clones.

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    • But should clones also bleed before using them?

      Obito is a different case beacause he has hashirama's chakra, Danzo also didn't seems to bleed when casting koto on Mifune

      For Nagato's clones what I'm saying is that we have no proof that clones can use rinnegan abilityes, beacause the rinnegan was alredy restricted in the edo form and like said before the clones can't sustain strains, but I can suppose that he can use it, in fact I did it in the cases I wrote above

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    • Dojutsu are under the branch of Kekkei Genkai, and I'm fairly certain that we've seen some instances of clones utilising a Kekkei Genkai of some sort, excluding Madara's clones uses of Wood Release or the Susanoo.

      When Nagato was using Pain, their entire function was through the Rinnegan's abilities, and they're essentially permanent Shadow Clones. Pain received chakra directly from Nagato, and Shadow Clones use up the chakra directly from Nagato too, so I don't see why one would be able to use such abilities whilst the other wouldn't. The only reason Nagato didn't use Shadow Clones there instead was because they would have appeared as crippled as he did, which would have made them useless in combat.

      The only thing I'd say that a clone of a Rinnegan user can't do is summon the Gedo Mazo, since it has been stipulated that only "authentic" Rinnegan can summon it.

      Nothing has been shown to disprove the idea that Shadow Clones can't use Kekkei Genkai, and the name of the technique even supports this. It wouldn't truly be a "clone" if many of their abilities were limited.

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    • For starter, there are kekkei genkai that clones can't use, like the bone thing that kimimaro uses

      But my point isn't on the kekkei genkai, is on the damage that clones get, I'm not saying that Nagato can't use clones for his rinnegan abilityes, I'm saying that we don't know if he can or cannot, given that things that have a toll on the body will disperse them, also in your description I guess we gotta add to the abilityes that a clone can't use the outher path, given that Madara couldn't revive himself with it

      So my point is the same, tecniques like Amaterasu shouldn't be usable by clones, beacause they'll puff before from the damage

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    • I think you're right to an extent, but you have to remember that clones don't have a fixed amount of chakra.

      If Itachi created a clone with 10% of his chakra, it's unlikely that the clone would be able to use a technique like Amaterasu before poofing. But, if Itachi created a clone with lets say, 40% of his chakra, then it should be able to utilise Amaterasu without poofing at least once.

      When the clone eventually dies, either from exerting all of its chakra or being hit by something etc, then the damage/eye strain from when it used Amaterasu earlier will be passed on to the real Itachi.

      And just to clarify, Nagato's techniques don't take up nearly as much chakra as Itachi's Amaterasu does, aside from the obvious Chaotic Shinra Tensei, Chibaku Tensei etc. A Nagato clone would most likely be able to pull off a dozen Shinra Tenseis, Bansho Tenins and Soul Steals, if not more. And they can even restore chakra if they come into contact with their opponent via the Preta Path. It's what Pain and Sasuke both did against Naruto, and it was vital for Sasuke in order to prolong his energy for the fight. It would be the same for a clone too.

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    • I don't think it's dependant on chakra but on the damage, like, you surely need the necessary chakra to perform the jutsu, but if the jutsu itslef requires that the caster gets damaged then the clone will puff while trying to cast it, another example could be the activations of the gates for a clone, along with the amaterasu example here we know that there is damage and clones can't sustain it, what gets sent back at the user is the knowledge the clone aquired but a simple punch is enough to puff them out

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    • Actual mastery with the technique is important too. Naruto for example could sustain a clone that was pierced by Chidori long enough to hold Sasuke for Naruto to land a hit.

      Completely unrelated note that I had to get off my chest; I asked my Japanese uncle about Chidori and was wondering why they had such a short word for "One Thousand Birds." As it turns out, the first syllable "Chi" denotes 1,000, while the last two syllables "tori" is the bit that means bird.

      So to translate properly to English, you can call Chidori "Kilobird" and I think that's hilarious. Sorry for the tangent but I had to share lol

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    • True, Naruto could sustain that, I don't know if works even gor things that make your eye bleed but I guess it can work with the rinnegan

      Also cool fact, thanks for sharing, lol kilobird

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    • @Frwt

      There's also the fact that the more chakra that you put into a Shadow Clone, the more durable they tend to become. One of Naruto's clones in the war-arc lasted ridiculously long, and was able to create clones of his own. Madara literally bopped Naruto's clone away with his Susanoo, and it withstood the impact.

      @Squinty Lol I'm gonna use that from now on.

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    • Squinty97 wrote: So to translate properly to English, you can call Chidori "Kilobird" and I think that's hilarious. Sorry for the tangent but I had to share lol

      Yo, remember when Sasuke used He with the ability to help by all means kilobird? That was so sick!

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    • @Halcyonite

      The clones of the WA worked with Kurama chakra tho

      Anyway, seems fair, even if we don't have proof that Nagato can do it and I'm not sure how rinnegan abilityes work with clones

      Like this Obito can only pull off some fanfic attack where he just tries to use the non touching short distance teleporting to telport some skin of Nagato's copies until he finds the original where he'll try to short-distance telport a piece of head or something

      So guess I'll have to agree on Obito's loss lol

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    • @Frwt

      Whilst there has been no direct display of a Shadow Clone utilising a Rinnegan technique, there's nothing disproving its possibility. Madara's Wood Clones have used Sharingan abilities, and the only differences between a Wood Clone and a Shadow Clone are their durability, their ability to communicate from afar, and their ability to change shape.

      It wouldn't make sense for a clone to lose access to most of its abilities, since it would not be a "clone" in that sense. It's like how Nagato's Rinnegan is not originally his, yet his Edo Tensei displayed a Rinnegan. His DNA at the time of him possessing a Rinnegan was what let him have the Rinnegan as an Edo Tensei.

      >> The point is, if Nagato has the Rinnegan, and then uses Shadow Clones, the Clones would also have the Rinnegan and thus would have the ability to utilise it (bar Gedo Mazo).

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    • But I'm not disproving it, I'm saying that we don't know if that can be true or not, like it can work but we don't have a decisive proof

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    • Frwt wrote: But I'm not disproving it, I'm saying that we don't know if that can be true or not, like it can work but we don't have a decisive proof

      We can assume that it can work because of the nature of shadow clones

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    • @Halcyonite the Rinnegan wasn't his originally, but he has Uzumaki/Senju DNA and he had to awaken the Rinnegan twice to keep it active. I think the process of the eyes being implanted into him, and then him re-awakening them integrated it into his DNA somehow, therefor although the eyes were not his originally they became his and that is why he can use both Rinnegan and has such mastery of the Rinnegan, therefor I agree that his clones would be able to use the Rinnegan and its techs.

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    • @FlatZone That sounds plausible and I'd believe it, but we've never seen a panel of Nagato with base eyes, he's always covered it with his hair as a kid, so idk.

      I've also heard that the reason why Nagato can use the Rinnegan so well, and a lot of its techniques without drawback is due to the fact that he has Uzumaki/Senju lineage combined with Uchiha DNA that he gets from the implanted Rinnegan. (This is just headcanon, but it explains why Nagato could handle 2 Rinnegan with ease whilst Obito struggled with just one)

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    • I think his parents would have made a big deal of it and somebody would have found out earlier if they saw their son's eyes were weird looking like that. Also there is most definitely Madara/Izuna DNA inside those eyes so he definitely has a bit of their DNA too. Nagato was literally the perfect host for the eyeballs.

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    • Agreed. The parents might have known about Nagato's eyes and told him to keep it covered to avoid attracting attention, but yeah either way makes sense.

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    • UltimaDude wrote: We can assume that it can work because of the nature of shadow clones

      What's their nature? They divide the chakra equally? You mean that you can cast jutsu with them?

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    • Frwt wrote: What's their nature? They divide the chakra equally? You mean that you can cast jutsu with them?

      Yes, to both questions

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    • Ok, but like considering one of the worst cases, do you think that a shadow clone can cast amaterasu?

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    • Frwt wrote: Ok, but like considering one of the worst cases, do you think that a shadow clone can cast amaterasu?

      Yes, of course. As long they have enough chakra, shadow clones can perform nearly all the abilities of the original.

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    • The only ability that has not been able to be replicated by a clone is summoning the Gedo Mazo, as "authentic" Rinnegan are required. They would have said if clones/Edos can't cast other jutsus, but the general consensus in the community and based on what the manga has told us: clones can do basically everything the original can.

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    • Madara couldn't use Limbo Hengoko while an Edo either.

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    • Yes, of course. As long they have enough chakra, shadow clones can perform nearly all the abilities of the original.

      But clones shouldn't be able to sustain soo much damage, bar maybe the one Naruto made that could block Sasuke's chidori?

      The only ability that has not been able to be replicated by a clone is summoning the Gedo Mazo, as "authentic" Rinnegan are required. They would have said if clones/Edos can't cast other jutsus, but the general consensus in the community and based on what the manga has told us: clones can do basically everything the original can.

      Madara couldn't use Limbo Hengoko while an Edo either.

      What about rinne-rebirth?

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    • Frwt wrote: But clones shouldn't be able to sustain soo much damage, bar maybe the one Naruto made that could block Sasuke's chidori?

      Amaterasu causes eye strain, if it's casted from the MS. But, as seen with a Naruto clone that encountered Madara in his war debut, shadow clones can endure some strain. So, a shadow clone can use an MS Amaterasu. If the user has the EMS, then the shadow clone can most definitely use Amaterasu since it wouldn't cause any eye strain.

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    • Amaterasu causes eye strain, if it's casted from the MS. But, as seen with a Naruto clone that encountered Madara in his war debut, shadow clones can endure some strain. So, a shadow clone can use an MS Amaterasu. If the user has the EMS, then the shadow clone can most definitely use Amaterasu since it wouldn't cause any eye strain.

      Sure EMS does the job, but in the MS case the eye bleeds out And if it was possible to use MS jutsu with clones, why Itachi losed his sight if he could just make a clone and get no damage?

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    • If he made only one clone, his clone could only use the MS tech once before becoming too low on chakra to use another. So he'd waste the chakra making a clone only to have it able to use one MS tech.

      Remember, a Shadow Clone divides your chakra evenly, but it's not like one clone would contain 50% of your total chakra. You use up chakra to perform the technique in the first place. So let's say it takes Itachi 4% of his chakra to make a Shadow Clone. Now his Shadow Clone and himself each have 48% total.

      For someone like Itachi, who's MS techs take up 25%-30% of his chakra, wasting chakra to perform techs of that magnitude isn't really practical. Especially since MS techs are techs he generally only uses against dangerous opponents. To waste chakra in such a situation wouldn't be smart for someone who has low reserves.

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    • Aganist multiple enemyes could be wise to not waste chakra But Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are one-shot jutsu, and Itachi is an uchiha, he can make a clone and use it to cast the jutsu Like even Kakashi used a raiton clone aganist Pain, if Itachi makes the same use of them (to analyze the enemy or bait) nothing should restrain him of using MS techs with the clone, more like if he does that he won't fell the repercussion on his body and be left opened if the attack fails

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    • Frwt wrote: Aganist multiple enemyes could be wise to not waste chakra But Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are one-shot jutsu, and Itachi is an uchiha, he can make a clone and use it to cast the jutsu Like even Kakashi used a raiton clone aganist Pain, if Itachi makes the same use of them (to analyze the enemy or bait) nothing should restrain him of using MS techs with the clone, more like if he does that he won't fell the repercussion on his body and be left opened if the attack fails

      Having a clone to use MS techniques will allow Itachi to avoid MS backlash, but he will still be left exhausted

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    • UltimaDude wrote: Having a clone to use MS techniques will allow Itachi to avoid MS backlash, but he will still be left exhausted

      The remaining chakra that the clone didn't use will return to him, he will still lose more chakra due to the casting of the clone jutsu, but it's a small cost compared to the losing of the sight and the strain put on the real body in casting MS jutsu

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    • When you factor in that Itachi has such low reserves to begin with, wasting any chakra at all against an opponent formidable enough to warrant usage of the MS is already really risky.

      Plus, he already used the MS so rarely that he didn't become close to blind for years. And he knew he was sick and dying; and was basically surviving on drugs when fighting Sasuke. Itachi probably didn't mind eventually losing his sight because his goal was to die to Sasuke anyways.

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    • But Itachi is an Uchiha and has large reserves, is the MS that takes a lot of it, he even uses clones for feints, so he alredy made them he could've also use MS techs (if he wants to)

      On the second point we can also say that he could've used them in off panel fights, and on the fight for the Konoha invasion he wanted to look tired for incentivating Kisame for an escape

      With this somekind of explanition for him not using it is made, I'll consider that PIS is a thing and so I can't prove that clones can't use MS jutsu

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    • Uchiha's dont just automatically have large reserves.

      Itachi's limit with MS was 3 uses before needing to deactivate his Sharingan and rest.

      Kakashi's limit with the MS when he first started was 3 uses too before he required rest and had difficulty moving.

      Considering that Kakashi is already noted to have barely average chakra and that his Sharingan drains him far more than Itachi's drain him, Itachi's reserves are not at all impressive and are actually within the ballpark of Kakashi.

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    • We don't know how much chakra Tsukuyomi requires compared to Kamui

      (But the databook actually sais that Kakashi has more stamina than Itachi?)

      Thing is if he already makes clones in fights (exception for the crow ones) and in that fight he needs to use MS techs, then he can just let the clone cast them, like he could kamikaze the clone o nthe enemy to cat amaterasu from distance of meters

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    • But what's the point of creating a clone if you'll just have it use an MS technique, to which it would then poof?

      Itachi himself would be better suited for using such techniques, and the clones would pressure the opponent in other ways that are less chakra-taxing.

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    • Itachi already creates clones for feints or to use the substitution jutsu with them, so it's not like he needs to create them just to cast the MS justu, it's that if he casted them and he need to use the MS he can let the clone do it so he won't take the physical damage

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    • Clones in general aren't as competent as the original. Ask the Wood Clone that Hashirama sent to Madara

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    • Sure but they only need to cast a jutsu, clones can even push a rasengan, in Itachi's case they just have to look at the target

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    • Yeah, but since they aren't as competent as the original, they'll most likely be less efficient at using chakra. Meaning that Itachi will lose more chakra using an MS jutsufrom a clone than his regular body. Add that to the fact that he loses chakra making clones, and the fact that he has such low reserves to begin with, it just makes more sense for Itachi himself to use his MS jutsu. Especially against opponents who warrant the use of the MS at all, since Itachi probably doesn't wanna waste chakra against opponents of that calibre.

      Why are we debating about this? This debate is healthy Nagato vs Orange Mask Obito

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    • It was whether clones could utilise ocular techniques or not, using Itachi and his Mangekyo as an example. I stipulated that Nagato's clones could use the abilities of the Rinnegan as well, excluding summoning the Gedo Mazo.

      Also, just to bring this up if there is still doubt as to whether Nagato can create shadow clones, but Nagato could potentially create different types of clones too. Nagato was said to have mastered, not learned, mastered the 5 nature transformations. I think it would not be unreasonable to believe that mastering a nature transformation would include the ability to create a water clone, or a lightning clone etc, given that creating a basic clone is something you learn in the Academy.

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    • Nagato has more advanced techs than that, for example he created a technique which creates perfect clones of whoever touches the tags, hell he has created multiple different techs. If he can do that I imagine Shadow Clones and other clone techs are childs play to him.

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    • Squinty97 wrote: Yeah, but since they aren't as competent as the original, they'll most likely be less efficient at using chakra. Meaning that Itachi will lose more chakra using an MS jutsufrom a clone than his regular body. Add that to the fact that he loses chakra making clones, and the fact that he has such low reserves to begin with, it just makes more sense for Itachi himself to use his MS jutsu. Especially against opponents who warrant the use of the MS at all, since Itachi probably doesn't wanna waste chakra against opponents of that calibre.

      It's an irrilevant portion of chakra compared to the fact that he'll create an opening for the enemy after using a MS jutsu with his body, while if he uses it with a clone he can continue to attack with the main body

      Why are we debating about this? This debate is healthy Nagato vs Orange Mask Obito

      Yea lol, thing was if clones can withstand the toll of using an ocular justu


      Halcyonite wrote: It was whether clones could utilise ocular techniques or not, using Itachi and his Mangekyo as an example. I stipulated that Nagato's clones could use the abilities of the Rinnegan as well, excluding summoning the Gedo Mazo.

      Also, just to bring this up if there is still doubt as to whether Nagato can create shadow clones, but Nagato could potentially create different types of clones too. Nagato was said to have mastered, not learned, mastered the 5 nature transformations. I think it would not be unreasonable to believe that mastering a nature transformation would include the ability to create a water clone, or a lightning clone etc, given that creating a basic clone is something you learn in the Academy.

      People from Iwa could create rock clones, but we don't know if they could create shadow clones, that's a forbidden justu that Tobirama invented, and the other elementals clones works differently, the water clone for example has a limited range and is mind is linked with the original


      FlatZone wrote: Nagato has more advanced techs than that, for example he created a technique which creates perfect clones of whoever touches the tags, hell he has created multiple different techs. If he can do that I imagine Shadow Clones and other clone techs are childs play to him.

      That was zetsu's jutsu

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    • https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Mirrored_Sudden_Attacker_Technique, no it's not.

      He also is the only known user of

      https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Amplification_Summoning_Technique

      https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Magic_Lantern_Body_Technique

      https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Rain_Tiger_at_Will_Technique

      https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Shapeshifting_Technique

      I think its more likely the reason is that he created these techs. Going by the fact he used Shadow Clones in the anime and by the fact that he created such techs, any sort of cloning tech should be trivial to him.

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    • True, how he does that tho? Kakashi spoke of it like it was a known trap (but was only in the anime maybe?)

      That's the dog ability, the ther summon don't have it


      Doesn't involve clones, it sais that Pain collect the thought waves?

      This has nothing to do with clones


      Yea this pretty neat, using bodies like clones

      I think its more likely the reason is that he created these techs. Going by the fact he used Shadow Clones in the anime and by the fact that he created such techs, any sort of cloning tech should be trivial to him.

      We don't know what differentiates the shadow clone jutsu from the others, or actually we know what diffentiates it from the water clones, or even the last one you posted, there the user must continuosly control the clone

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    • "Pain applied this technique to his dog summon." Nagato is the one who applied the Amplification Summoning Technique to that summon.

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    • @Halcyonite

      I like your reasoning, yet I have to push back on a few points. Orange mask Obito, confronted by Snake Kabuto and reanimated Akatsuki showed no visible sign of fear or danger. That is, edo Nagato and Itachi included and still didn't react. Only reacting when edo Madara was shown. Which implies that Obito at that time knew he couldn't beat Madara, yet was seemingly confident he could take the rest.

      Another point as mentioned by a previous user is wood release not just chakra. It clearly is special as referenced by it reacting to Naruto's yang kurama chakra, the fact that Madara didn't absorb it with the preta path, the fact that it creates living trees and the fact that it doesn't disappear.

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    • Obito didn't fear Madara alone, he feared Madara in combination with all the other Edo's that Kabuto had at his disposal. Also Obito knew Nagato was his white haired crippled self even as an Edo because he literally SAW Nagato in the summoning coffin. Obito never fucked with Itachi because he knew better, he even said that if not for keeping his secrets well hidden(Kamui's exact mechanics) Itachi would have killed him already. Obito also knows that Edo Tensei are not as strong as their living selves even in the 4th War so of course he wasn't sweating any of the Edo Tensei, neither was Kabuto and because of Itachi he lost.

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    • Ikr ^^ @, "I like your reasoning." In my previous opinion. Obito walks straight up to Nagato and cuts his throat with a Kunai.

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    • I’m not sure why Obito not showing any signs of being anxious means that he would bop all of those Akatsuki members. I’m not saying it doesn’t mean that, but its such a significant assumption for such a minor detail.

      We know Obito, he is devious, manipulative and shrewd. He obviously could be bluffing in order to intimidate Kabuto, or believes that nothing could happen to him since he’d just teleport away. NOTHING insinuates that Obito would beat ALL of these Kage-level ninja, including Perfect Sage Kabuto, at the same time. Naruto, Guy and Kakashi were enough to pressure White Mask Obito, so what makes people think that the bulk of the Akatsuki and Kabuto won’t be enough for Orange-Mask Obito?

      Also, this discussion involves a healthy Nagato. The Nagato that Obito saw was clearly emaciated and immobile.



      This is from the Water Clone page:

      Unlike the standard Clone Technique, these water clones are physically real, allowing them to interact with others and even perform the same jutsu as the user.

      >>> The fact that it can perform the same jutsu as the user and is not limited to water style techniques shows its just as viable as Nagato’s potential use of Shadow Clones. And Nagato wouldn’t even stray far from his clones, his whole gimmick with the Paths of Pain involved being close together to pressure his opponents, and to exploit shared vision. So, water clones having limited range would not be a problem at all. Lightning clones can also be another alternative, or Earth/Rock clones.

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    • FlatZone wrote: Obito never fucked with Itachi because he knew better, he even said that if not for keeping his secrets well hidden(Kamui's exact mechanics) Itachi would have killed him already.

      Yeah no, there was very little reason to do anything to Itachi because Itachi was bringing in Tailed Beasts for the Akatsuki.

      Also, it's not that impressive saying he would have died if Itachi knew how his techniques worked. That's literally how Shinobi operate. Their techniques and strategies are hidden so that people can't exploit their weaknesses. Knowledge gives so much power, to the point where Jiraiya would have taken out Pain if he knew Pain's secret.

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    • Obito still viewed it too risky to even attempt to fuck with Itachi or Nagato, in Nagato's case he and Zetsu even go on to say they thought Nagato invincible and couldn't believe he lost. Obito wanted the Rinnegan for himself, he didn't care to bring back Madara and he made that clear in the 4th War so it's obvious he felt it too risky and dangerous to mess with Nagato when he was alive. Itachi himself only brought in 1 tailed beast and that was actually Kisame who did that not Itachi as Itachi never actually tried to do so. Obito isn't stupid he knew Itachi wasn't going to bring in any TB's and he knew Itachi's real role and motives. Obito didn't want to screw with Itachi or Nagato because it was too dangerous for him even with Kamui at his disposal hence he waited until Nagato was dead to try to get the Rinnegan

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    • FlatZone wrote: Obito still viewed it too risky to even attempt to fuck with Itachi

      ?? I explained why there was no point. Itachi was an asset to the Akatsuki. And regardless of Kisame or Itachi bringing a Tailed Beast in, they were a duo, so their team got credit. It's not like Obito was there and saw exactly what went down, he just knows Itachi's unit brought in a Tailed Beast.

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    • FlatZone wrote: "Pain applied this technique to his dog summon." Nagato is the one who applied the Amplification Summoning Technique to that summon.

      My bad, I should've read the description lol

      Halcyonite wrote: This is from the Water Clone page:

      Unlike the standard Clone Technique, these water clones are physically real, allowing them to interact with others and even perform the same jutsu as the user.

      >>> The fact that it can perform the same jutsu as the user and is not limited to water style techniques shows its just as viable as Nagato’s potential use of Shadow Clones. And Nagato wouldn’t even stray far from his clones, his whole gimmick with the Paths of Pain involved being close together to pressure his opponents, and to exploit shared vision. So, water clones having limited range would not be a problem at all. Lightning clones can also be another alternative, or Earth/Rock clones.

      Nice find, water clones shouldn't be a forbidden jutsu

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    • Halcyonite wrote: I’m not sure why Obito not showing any signs of being anxious means that he would bop all of those Akatsuki members. I’m not saying it doesn’t mean that, but its such a significant assumption for such a minor detail.

      ...Naruto, Guy and Kakashi were enough to pressure White Mask Obito, so what makes people think that the bulk of the Akatsuki and Kabuto won’t be enough for Orange-Mask Obito?

      Well, the very fact that he would have refused Kabuto's offer if edo Madara wasn't shown says a lot. So I don't think it's just an assumption. Naruto, Guy and Kakashi were able to pressure Obito due to Kakashi using Kamui as an effective counter against Obito's Kamui. The bulk of Akatsuki doesn't have this.

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    • @Ninja Fair point on Kakashi having Kamui as well, but again Obito may not even be “refusing” the deal because of his ability to fight all of the Akatsuki.

      Let’s say that the Akatsuki weren’t even there, and Kabuto only showed Edo Madara. Obito would still most likely fold. Whilst a possible reason is that Madara would beat Obito in a fight (which he probably would), that might not entirely be what Obito is worried about. It is clear that Obito did not want Madara revived, as he would lose the reins over his plan. Obito might have simply not wanted to complicate his goal with having Madara with him.

      Thus, I don’t think Obito initially questioning the deal shows his strength over the bulk of Akatsuki, it’s too assumptive. I think Obito was confident that the Akatsuki couldn’t do anything to him since his ability is the perfect defense, or he would easily escape, but I don’t think he could beat them in a fight. Think about it, with characters like Nagato and Itachi where his best bet is to suck them into Kamui, he is screwed when you realise that he’d be attacked from both dimensions at the same time.

      Obito probably showed no intimidation because they can’t do things to him (only if he doesn’t engage), but it is exactly the same vice versa with the stronger Akatsuki members. The moment he sucks one Akatsuki member into Kamui is where he loses. (I don’t think Sasori without his puppets or Deidara would be much of a factor, but Nagato and Itachi would definitely screw Obito if he sucked only one of them into Kamui at a point in time.

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    • @Halcyonite

      Fair enough. Though I don't think Obito would simply suck them in with Kamui. I suppose Obito's confidence in that moment would also stem from the knowledge he has of each of the Akatsuki members abilities. Nothing would really surprise Obito there.

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    • @Ninja

      Yeah, but it's really Obito's only option. I discussed earlier how Obito literally cannot touch Nagato with anything. Look at his entire arsenal with the exception of Kamui. EVERYTHING is either nullified or is just non-factor lol. Kamui is Obito's only bet against Nagato, and that's assuming Nagato is either A. not with someone else or B. hasn't created any shadow clones/water clones/lightning clones etc..

      As for Itachi, his "immunity" to Obito's techniques isn't as clear-cut as Nagato's, but not much can get past the Totsuka Blade + Yata Mirror + Susanoo combo. Wood Style would probably be the most damage Obito could do. Again, Obito's only real bet against Itachi is his use of Kamui.

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    • I do think from what we've seen wood release would be useful against Nagato. I don't think it can be simply absorbed/countered by the preta path and due to Obito's proficient use of it. Shadow clones won't be one of the main options for Nagato, not that he can't use it, just his main arsenal doesn't revolve around the use of shadow clones, so unlikely.

      Here's something to think about, Obito's Kamui isn't an attack. It's essentially phasing, meaning he can phase through the YM and Susanoo. So it would be a bad move to use it against Obito. Again, nothing would surprise Obito, while everything would be unknown to his enemies.

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    • @Ninja

      Fair assessment for Itachi. I agree with what you have said in regards to him. Like I said, his ways of getting around certain techs aren't as clear-cut as Nagato's.

      Preta Path would help reduce the potency of such Wood Release attacks, and whilst it may not completely stop the attacks, it is not the only measure Nagato can take to avoid it. Shinra Tensei would disperse the attacks easily. Nagato has a plethora of summonings to take the hits, including a Panda summoning who is pretty much designed to block tangible attacks. Nagato also has mastered all 5 releases, including Fire release, which could be a counter-attack etc. And this is all happening whilst Nagato has shared vision through his summonings and clones.

      I wouldn't say that Shadow Clones are out-of-character for Nagato. A chunk of Nagato's life was him being emaciated, so if he used clones, they would just turn out exactly the same as him: crippled and emaciated. Hence, the Paths of Pain had much better utility. In the time of the Original Akatsuki, Nagato was shown to use Shadow Clones in his single-body form, and the only other time we've seen a single-body Nagato fight was when he was unwilling to fight, and under the complete control of Kabuto.

      Heck, Nagato as Pain has showcased so many strange yet shockingly powerful derivatives of clone techniques. He created the tag outside the Akatsuki hideout that manifested the doppelgangers that fought Team Guy. He has the ability to create shapeshifting clones, as shown when he created copies of Kisame and Itachi. He applied a technique to his dog summoning that allowed it to create multiple clones of itself upon receiving physical damage. He manifested illusion clones through his eyes so all the members of the Akatsuki could communicate with one another. He mastered all 5 elements, which would without a doubt mean that he could create a Water Clone, or a Lightning Clone, or a Mud Clone etc etc. Lol, Pain's whole identity is essentially six clones of himself with shared vision. He has always relied on the utility of pressure and outnumbering his opponents.

      From that I'd definitely say that Nagato is 100% capable of using a clone of whatever type he pleases in his fighting style. If people can argue that Kid Obito has the power of the full 9-tails after having it in a genjutsu for 20 minutes, I can argue this for sure. Agree to disagree though, your way of thinking is just as reasonable.

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    • Preta nullifies Kamui. The Databook specifically states the technicalities that practically manifests such.

      Though, it may seem like an astral projection distinct to Chakra, it's flat-out still a Ninjatsū.

      Nagato vapes in 9 sec.

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    • KyfieLita68 wrote: Preta nullifies Kamui. The Databook specifically states the technicalities that practically manifests such.

      Well that's just not true lol

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    • A FANDOM user
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